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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Brainwaves and Accelerated Reference Frame (ARF)
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At 9:04 PM 7/31/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Far out!   :-)
>
> http://www.vxm.com/Dejan.html

Very far out!  8^)   What wonderfully eccentric and arcane humor.  I wonder
if it is the result of the mental stress from nightly bombing - or maybe
just from a lot of free time when the power went out.  Maybe an assignment
in scientific english?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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At 12:38 PM 7/30/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Stop Parroting physics you don't understand and do some thinking, Horace.

Actually, the physics I was parroting I wrote myself in regard to solar
sails in September of 1998, posted on vortex under the title: "Photon
thrust - corrected values".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 06:39:58 2000
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Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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Summing it up:

Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs

Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.

For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 07:43:58 2000
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From: "Mike C" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Greed, Sacrifice and Altruism
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Vo,

There has been some discussion about Greed, usually corporate greed, as if that
were the only greed worth mentioning. Corporate greed is usually equated to
profits, as if that were the result of greed and existed only because of greed.

When you go to the store, do you shop for the best price? Who, then is greedy?
Are you unwilling to share your resources in exchange with all those who brought
the product to your hands?

I line in New Jersey. Why should I give money for a car to a company in, say,
Detroit? Why don't we have the New Jersey Automobile Company? (I own two Camrys,
made in USA, and have owned two Indian, three Honda and one BMW motorcycles). My
proposition is absurd, of course, but it has the same flavor as elaborate
arguments against globalization of enterprises.

A concentration of contributed resources (Capital) is necessary for enterprises
and there is an economy of scale; those who risk the resources are entitled to
compensation.

There is no system of politics or economics which cannot be perverted. Thus
chance ownership a patch of land over a vast oil reserve confers no special
virtue on those who live there, in contrast with someone who creates wealth.
Thus I would confer greater merit to, say, Bill Gates, than to the Emir of a
Arab oil state.

The market economy provides for continuous negotiation between providers to
establish the actual value of anything, from oil to ointments.

In a moral sense, Greed is seen as one of the deadly sins, for it leads people
to short-term actions which are harmful in the long run. Christianity teaches
self-sacrifice, or mutual sacrifice as the better path for all concerned.
Buddhism teaches the mutual dependence of all beings.

In the mathematical analysis of games, there is the Prisoner's Dilemma, which
seems to show that the best strategy is to betray your buddy before he betrays
you. Yet this has been extended in a study called the Mathematics of Altruism,
in which it is rigorously shown, with computer modeling, that altruism wins in
the end. The bad guys are eventually identified by the good guys and isolated,
and they lose.

It remains for those who make a great noise about the greed of others to
demonstrate that they have made a useful contribution to the survival of others,
and are not just noisy parasites.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 10:19:05 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
>
>For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
>
>Regards,   Frederick


I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.

Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then

  m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2

  v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037

and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.

Looking at your earlier relation:

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

  k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2

Perhaps this should look like:

  k/G = [(gamma_e*n1 * gamma_up*n2 * gamma_down*n3)/q1] *
        [(gamma_e*n4 * gamma_up*n5 * gamma_down*n6)/q2]

where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q

    n1 = 2*[(2/3) n2 + (1/3) n3] = (4/3) n2 + (2/3) n3

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = 2*[(2/3) n5 + (1/3) n6] = (4/3) n5 + (2/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that

   gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma

for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
gammas are constant.  Factoring out K, the product of the fixed gammas,
gives:

     k/G = K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/q1*q2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/n1*n4*q^2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n2*n3*n5*n6/q^2)

but since the ratios n2/n3 and n5/n6 are variable, and n2, n3, n4 and n5
are arbitrarily chosen, k/G is variable.  More importantly, this approach
of setting

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

looks to be just plain wrong, unless the two r's are different. Did I miss
something about the r's here?

The subject equation

  Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

appears to be not valid, and not simply fixed.  However, we have the value

  [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1

or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.


Did I mess something up?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 10:29:26 2000
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Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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In the prior post on this subject I neglected to include the product of the
masses of the particles in K.  The conclusions are unchanged, however.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 12:52:55 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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Gee, if there is anything to your theory Fred, then there should be a beat
frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336 MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz, not
relativistically adjusted.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 14:24:58 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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The following is mostly just a minor correction to a prior post, with added
comments at the bottom.


At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
>
>For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
>
>Regards,   Frederick


I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.

Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then

  m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2

  v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037

and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.

Looking at your earlier relation:

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

  k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2

Using m_e, m_up, m_down, for the masses, perhaps this should look like:

  k/G = [(gamma_e*n1*m_e * gamma_up*n2*m_up * gamma_down*n3*m_down)/q1] *
        [(gamma_e*n4*m_e * gamma_up*n5*m_up * gamma_down*n6*m_down)/q2]

where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q

    n1 = 2*[(2/3) n2 + (1/3) n3] = (4/3) n2 + (2/3) n3

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = 2*[(2/3) n5 + (1/3) n6] = (4/3) n5 + (2/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that

   gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma

for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
gammas are constant.  Factoring out K, the product of the fixed gammas and
masses, gives:

     k/G = K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/q1*q2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/n1*n4*q^2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n2*n3*n5*n6/q^2)

but since the ratios n2/n3 and n5/n6 are variable, and n2, n3, n5 and n6
are arbitrarily chosen, k/G is variable.  More importantly, this approach
of setting

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

looks to be just plain wrong, unless the two r's are different. Did I miss
something about the r's here?

The subject equation

  Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

appears to be not valid, and not simply fixed.  However, we have the value

  [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1

or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.


Perhaps the implied  beat frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336
MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz (not relativistically adjusted) would be of some
use, maybe in verifying the theory.

There is also the matter of the expected radiation inherent to the string
motion of individual quarks (your gravity), vs radiation due to the motion
of the quarks in the nucleus (more along the lines where I picked the quark
energy.)  However, it would seem reasonabkle that these energies coudl
exchange in the nucleus.  Given the energy that the orbital electron can
add to the nucleus occasionally, and the binding energy there, it is
amazing the nucleus does not radiate due to quark motion.  This is all very
unsatisfying.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 16:27:19 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
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Sorry, maybe I'll get it right some day!  Here is the whole thing with some
more minor corrections.  I've had to mow the lawn, clean the kitchen, take
my daughter to the docter, do my bills and have lunch in the interim.  It's
just another one of those days!


At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
>
>For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
>
>Regards,   Frederick


I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.

Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then

  m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2

  v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037

and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.

Looking at your earlier relation:

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

from the point of view of the force between two masses m1 and m2 due to
their charges, we can reorganize the equation to look for the constant:

  k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2

Using m_e, m_up, m_down, for the masses, perhaps this should look like:

  k/G = [(gamma_e*n1*m_e * gamma_up*n2*m_up * gamma_down*n3*m_down)/q1] *
        [(gamma_e*n4*m_e * gamma_up*n5*m_up * gamma_down*n6*m_down)/q2]

where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)

    n1 = (2/3) n2 + (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = (2/3) n5 + (1/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that

   gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma

for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
gammas are constant.  Factoring out K, the product of the fixed gammas and
masses, gives:

     k/G = K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/q1*q2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n1*n2*n3*n4*n5*n6/n1*n4*q^2)

        = (1/4)*K*(n2*n3*n5*n6/q^2)

but since the ratios n2/n3 and n5/n6 are variable, and n2, n3, n5 and n6
are arbitrarily chosen, k/G is variable.  More importantly, this approach
of setting

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

looks to be just plain wrong, unless the two r's are different. Did I miss
something about the r's here?

The subject equation

  Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

appears to be not valid, and not simply fixed.  However, we have the value

  [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1

or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.


Perhaps the implied  beat frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336
MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz (not relativistically adjusted) would be of some
use, maybe in verifying the theory.

There is also the matter of the expected radiation inherent to the string
motion of individual quarks (your gravity), vs radiation due to the motion
of the quarks in the nucleus (more along the lines where I picked the quark
energy.)  However, it would seem reasonabkle that these energies could
exchange in the nucleus.  Given the energy that the orbital electron can
add to the nucleus occasionally, and the binding energy there, it is
amazing the nucleus does not radiate due to quark motion.  This is all very
unsatisfying.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 16:30:15 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What are: Whirlpools and Vorticies of Mr. Dennard
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:28:28 PDT
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John Schnurer writes:

>With personality left out, rhetoric put aside, let us all, and
>formost the Principle Investigator, who best knows the art described by 
>himself, Mr Dennard, put forth the following in a straightforward manner:

This list is only interested in personal attacks, not what I am saying.  
Always has been.  There are many that have said a few good things here and 
there but an actual discussion has never happened.

Folks here don't know what a whirlpool is.

>	To date there has been no such simple beginning, by any party.

I have described it simply every time.  Lots of folks understand exactly 
what I am saying.

You say you can't get on the web, yet you have an edu address.  Go the the 
library, http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

That's a whirlpool.

Look up vortex in any fashion you want.  Not a whirlpool.

Read "Anatomy of a Whirlpool" it has been posted here and at 
Antigravity egroups.com you are on that list too.  Anna agreed I have 
explained it completely to you.  And she doesn't even know how long this has 
been going on.

So if your apology had anything to do with all this like I said I accept.  I 
don't hold any grudge or even care about who any of you folks are, 
personally, I have no idea who anyone is, big shot, prestige, clout, don't 
matter to me.  I just go by the words in a letter.

If you have not read "Anatomy of a Whirlpool" I will be glad to repost it if 
necessary.

David

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 17:19:21 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity Force
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Horace
	I think you have to consider Maxwell's equations and special
relativity together as a mathematical model of the universe, and for now
at least ignore details of materials, quantum mechanics, etc... In
mechanics, there is a subject called mechanics of the continua dealing
with stress, strain, etc, which is
constructed as  above. I believe that EM Theory should be treated
similarly. After understanding of the idealized theory is acheived, then
one can add reality, see where the theory breaks down, and add to the
theory, generalizing where appropriate. Similarly with quantum mechanical
theory. I am hoping that CSUN will give a grad course in EM theory this
coming spring. They didn't this year because there are not enough graduate
students in physics. I don't follow your details well enough to more then
generally comment on the discussion between you and Frederick, since I
last took EM theory in 1960. I am still waiting to see Larry's discussion
that he talked about last week.

Regards,
Hank

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 6:10 PM 7/27/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
> >To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 3:57 PM
> >Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity
> >Force
> >
> >Hank Scudder wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Frederick
> >> Please expand on what you are saying here. I don't see how it all
> >> fits togegther.
> 
> 
> I still don't have a clear picture.  The more you learn about this stuff
> the more conflict and viewpoints there appear to be.
> 
> 
> >
> >Bottom line, Hank? :-)
> >
> >The constant 1/4(pi)eo (k) * q^2  = kq^2 = 2.304E-28  crops up
> >all over the place.  Particle radius, r = kq^2/Energy,
> >Electrostatic Force between charges, Fes  = kq^2/r^2 ,
> >the magnetostatic force between two current loops (4.8E-11 Ampere-Meters)
> >ie., q*f *2(pi)r for any particle or String-Circle or "quark" gives the
> >the magnetostatic force between two current loops:
> >
> >Fmag = 1.0E-7 * (4.8E-11)^2 / (1.0meter)^2 = 2.304E-28 nt  =  kq^2
> >indicating that there is no fundamental difference between magnetism and
> >charge.
> 
> 
> The magnetic (dipole) force is 1/r^3.  How do you get a 1/r^2 force here,
> or do you?  Obviously they will be equal at SOME point.
> 
> 
> >
> >The main point was that two particles in space in their own reference frame
> >moving so close to c (gamma of 3.3E18 to 2.0E21)that the magnetostatic force
> >that is the result of this time dilation is the gravitational force.
> >
> >Big G , 6.67E-11 can be factored out to magnetostatic forces:
> >
> >(6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2 = 0.02583 Ampere-Meters/Kg
> >
> >IOW, Fg = 1.0E-7 * 0.02583*M1 * 0.02583*M2/R^2  (newtons)
> >
> >From this the time dilation  magnetostatic/gravitational force can be
> >found also.
> >
> >How's that for expansion?  :-)
> 
> 
> Clear as mud!  But interesting.
> 
> I am interested in what string theory has to say about exactly what
> "vibrates" in a photon.  What in fact IS a photon in string theory?  The EM
> force is carried by the virtual photon, which presumably also has similar
> characteristic frequencies.  The problem as I see it, be it applied to
> virtual or real photons, boils down to what oscillates and how does it
> oscillate?
> 
> Perhaps tensors can shed some light on this, as Hank suggests, but I don't
> see how if the magnetic field itself does not exist.  Various texts derive
> the magnetic force exacty for the current between two long parallel wires,
> using solely the Coulombic field and special relativity.  The
> (relativistic) source of the Lorentz force is the increase in current
> density rho due to the fact the reference frome for any (relatively) moving
> particles is contracted by 1/gamma. One source of my concern is the problem
> that, if the magnetic force is fully accounted for by frame contraction,
> then the magnetic force as normally calculated  must not exist at all -
> i.e. it can not be simultaneously the result of electrostatics due to frame
> contraction (rho increase) and also the result of the Lorentz force due to
> the existence of the magnetic field as summed via Biot-Savart.  If you
> apply BOTH theories you obtain twice the force observed.  Further, if you
> throw out the magnetic field as a non-real merely calculated artifact of
> group charge motion, then you also throw out the photon.
> 
> Further difficulty arises due to the fact that time dilation is at a limit
> in a photon's reference frame.  Its clock is stopped for its entire
> journey.  If a photon's clock is stopped, how can anything oscillate in the
> photon's journey, say for a distance of 1000 of the photon's wavelengths?
> 
> I just don't get it.  If there is nothing to oscillate, and there is no
> time to oscillate, what exactly IS a photon anyway?  What is there that can
> carry a force from point A to point B, and also appear to oscillate in its
> journey?
> 
> Since the electrostatic field can be derived from the magnetic and vice
> versa, using relativity, one viewpoint is that they are covariant, part and
> parcel of the same thing.  This sounds nice but does not provide an
> explanation to the relativistic equivalent to the magnetic force beteen the
> parallel wires.
> 
> My fealing is that at least part of the error lies in the relativistic
> analysis of the force between parallel wires.  There must be a missing
> factor that wipes out, or nearly wipes out, the relativistic increase in
> charge density.  I think consideration of the momentum change of the force
> carrying virtual photons due to Doppler shift may provide pat of the
> answer.  However, how the photon oscillates at all, while its own clock is
> stopped, is beyond me.  Perhaps there is a clear comprehensive and
> believable explanation to all this according to standard electrodynamics
> (i.e. without resorting to untested or barely tested and uncomfirmed
> hypotheses and theories, which exist in abundance, like the Doppler-related
> one I just suggested immediately above) of which I am just not aware?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 18:48:48 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> John Fields writes:
> 
> >David, I don't really think that your not receiving refutations to your
> >latest "explaination" is indicative of anything other than that no one
> >cares.
> 
> I think not.  They just can't mount a sustainable arguement and it makes
> science in general look foolish not to have noticed this before.

---
Shirley, you must be joking!

You seem to think a whirlpool is something holy, yet you want to
dispatch others to search for "your" grail?

What makes you think that you're a "King Of Some Sort" who can send his
knights out to search for his dream? 
 
Then, further down your post, you admit that you're _not_ a scientist,
yet you say that by using the "Scientific Method manner" blah, blah,
blah.

If you're interested in examining the physical characteristics of
whirlpools, and in proving your theory (since you're a theorist instead
of a scientist) it seems to me that it would behoove you to try to
convince someone... anyone, to back you up with some cash.

Can't quite do it? Oh, well, we'll all die because you couldn't hack
it... 
---
  
> >Instead of opinions and half-baked philosophy, why don't you publish
> some hard scientific evidence which will lend some credibility to your
> claims?
> 
> Theorists propose, scientists dispose.  My only claim is whirlpools are
> unknown to science, no data, no tests, no nothin'.  Backed up by all the
> votes, from very knowledgeable folks, on the Whirlpower Declaration and now
> independently at;
> 
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

---

So, by labelling yourself as a theorist, you can abrogate the
responsibility of doing any of the work required to prove your
hypothesis? 

Anyone can say "My theory is that, one day, a human will land on the
moon.", and then, when it happens, take credit for it.  The fact that it
happened has nothing to do with your non-contribution.  


and, Votes?
>From very knowledgeable folks?

We're all presumably very knowledgeable about something, but what we're
knowledgeable about may have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Which is, "emperor", that you're naked and you're trying to convince
everyone that you're not.

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 19:09:59 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity Force
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At 5:14 PM 8/1/0, hank scudder wrote:
>Horace
>        I think you have to consider Maxwell's equations and special
>relativity together as a mathematical model of the universe, and for now
>at least ignore details of materials, quantum mechanics, etc... In
>mechanics, there is a subject called mechanics of the continua dealing
>with stress, strain, etc, which is
>constructed as  above.


To some degree I have studied Maxwell a la Heaviside, and SR, and even to
that small extent that I have, they appear to be inconsistent.  I would
like to be able to study the original Maxwell someday, but don't have the
(quaternion) math background.


>I believe that EM Theory should be treated
>similarly. After understanding of the idealized theory is acheived, then
>one can add reality, see where the theory breaks down, and add to the
>theory, generalizing where appropriate. Similarly with quantum mechanical
>theory. I am hoping that CSUN will give a grad course in EM theory this
>coming spring. They didn't this year because there are not enough graduate
>students in physics. I don't follow your details well enough to more then
>generally comment on the discussion between you and Frederick, since I
>last took EM theory in 1960. I am still waiting to see Larry's discussion
>that he talked about last week.
>
>Regards,
>Hank


To me the excitement is not in the known, but in the unknown.  It was Chris
Tinsley's continued examination here on vortex of various EM problems, like
the longitudinal force, homopolar motors, Marinov's motor, mysteies of the
vector magnetic potential, etc., that drew my initial interest to EM.  He
and some others had a wonderful way of focusing on the unknown that piqued
my interest.  That was why I started studying this stuff, as earnestly as
an otherwise busy amateur can anyway.  I hope maybe my focus on the unknown
and the not easily understood will interest or benefit others who read
here, like it did me.  I'm retired and obese and carry nitroglycerine.  I
suspect my days are numbered.  I have to take the fun where I can find it.
Also, I could use some answers!

I get the impression that there are about as many views of EM as there are
authors.  Too often obtaining a correct solution requires selecting the
"right method" or viewpoint. This is OK for cooking, but not science in my
opinion.  It is surprising that such an old science could be so poorly
developed that there are so many unresolved issues, or at least authors
willing to say so.  I think there are still lots of mysteries to be
unraveled by small science, and the discipline of EM is a ripe place for
that.  It is so remarkable that adding a mere extra unit, the Coulomb, to
the kilogram, meter and second, could make for so much trouble and so much
of interest to do.

Once I thought I knew what a magnet was, and a charge, and a magnetic
field.  Now I don't even know for certain that magnetic fields are not just
an illusion.  The more I study the more I know for sure that I don't know,
and the more I find that it appears no one knows.  That, to me is exciting.


Maybe some day, after my kids get out of school, I'll be able to go to
college, if my brain still functions.  The memory is almost shot already!
8^)

Meanwhile, I have this incredible "secret" experiment to do ...  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Whirlpools and Vorticies
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All we see here is put down language.  You want to put something down, stick 
your head in the subject matter first and address the issues.

Otherwise, you are just flapping your jaws.

I don't ask for cash, I ask for Scientific Method testing, theorist propose, 
scientists dispose.  That's how they taught it back when I was in college.

Einstein did not make the measurments on gravitational lensing, he proposed 
the tests.  Stated everything hinged on the measurment being 1.75.  It fell 
short, still does.  Now we find space is not curved.  Science still can 
hardly comprehend what Einstein was talking about.  But his theory had a 
testable conclusion.  That is what makes a theory real or not.  Then 
Scientific Method testing, not Einstein doing the actual test.  Best 
theorists don't test, IMO, or ask for money, like so many of the other new 
energy guys do, year after year with no result.  Just get to the data.

And everything will come into focus once science realizes why the measurment 
is short of its exact specification.

And when science builds and tests whirlpools in a scientific manner, then 
the data will speak.  Currently science does not even know what a whirlpool 
is.  That's what the Whirlpower Declaration states with numerous votes to 
back it up and independently backed up just recently a 
http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

Now, if you can't recognize this and discuss it is a civil manner, then I 
suggest you just delete.  Just stick your head in the sand.  There you will 
have no worry of me.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Whirlpools and Vorticies
>Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 20:42:51 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > John Fields writes:
> >
> > >David, I don't really think that your not receiving refutations to your
> > >latest "explaination" is indicative of anything other than that no one
> > >cares.
> >
> > I think not.  They just can't mount a sustainable arguement and it makes
> > science in general look foolish not to have noticed this before.
>
>---
>Shirley, you must be joking!
>
>You seem to think a whirlpool is something holy, yet you want to
>dispatch others to search for "your" grail?
>
>What makes you think that you're a "King Of Some Sort" who can send his
>knights out to search for his dream?
>
>Then, further down your post, you admit that you're _not_ a scientist,
>yet you say that by using the "Scientific Method manner" blah, blah,
>blah.
>
>If you're interested in examining the physical characteristics of
>whirlpools, and in proving your theory (since you're a theorist instead
>of a scientist) it seems to me that it would behoove you to try to
>convince someone... anyone, to back you up with some cash.
>
>Can't quite do it? Oh, well, we'll all die because you couldn't hack
>it...
>---
>
> > >Instead of opinions and half-baked philosophy, why don't you publish
> > some hard scientific evidence which will lend some credibility to your
> > claims?
> >
> > Theorists propose, scientists dispose.  My only claim is whirlpools are
> > unknown to science, no data, no tests, no nothin'.  Backed up by all the
> > votes, from very knowledgeable folks, on the Whirlpower Declaration and 
>now
> > independently at;
> >
> > http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
>
>---
>
>So, by labelling yourself as a theorist, you can abrogate the
>responsibility of doing any of the work required to prove your
>hypothesis?
>
>Anyone can say "My theory is that, one day, a human will land on the
>moon.", and then, when it happens, take credit for it.  The fact that it
>happened has nothing to do with your non-contribution.
>
>
>and, Votes?
>From very knowledgeable folks?
>
>We're all presumably very knowledgeable about something, but what we're
>knowledgeable about may have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
>
>Which is, "emperor", that you're naked and you're trying to convince
>everyone that you're not.
>
>---
>
>John Fields
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 21:02:29 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> All we see here is put down language.  You want to put something down, stick
> your head in the subject matter first and address the issues.

---
David, it seems that (according to you) anyone who disagrees with your
premises must first conform to a regimen to which you approve, otherwise
they are just flapping their jaws.
---

> Otherwise, you are just flapping your jaws.
> 
> I don't ask for cash, I ask for Scientific Method testing, theorist propose,
> scientists dispose.  That's how they taught it back when I was in college.

---
So, what you're looking for is fame.
OK, here we go...

PRESS RELEASE 

"David Dennard, the world renowned theorist, said today that everyone
who disagreed with him were "just flapping their jaws"

When asked what he meant, Dennard stated that he would "...ask for
Scientific Method testing of his theory"

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 21:54:08 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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I wrote:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)

    n1 = (2/3) n2 + (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = (2/3) n5 + (1/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

which should have read:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)

    n1 = (2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
thus is only a sign error, and it has no effect on anything that follows.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 22:34:53 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
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I finally found my simple stupid mistake.  The masses of the particles in a
mass m1 or m2  ADD, not multiply.


At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
>
>For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
>
>Regards,   Frederick


I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.

Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then

  m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2

  v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037

and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.

Looking at your earlier relation:

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

from the point of view of the force between two masses m1 and m2 due to
their charges, we can reorganize the equation to look for the constant:

  k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2

Using m_e, m_up, m_down, for the masses, perhaps this should look like:

  k/G = [(gamma_e*n1*m_e + gamma_up*n2*m_up + gamma_down*n3*m_down)/q1] *
        [(gamma_e*n4*m_e + gamma_up*n5*m_up + gamma_down*n6*m_down)/q2]

      = gamma_e*m_e*(n1 + n4) + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5)+
          gamma_down*m_down*(n3+n6)



where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)

    n1 = (2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that

   gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma

for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
gammas are constant, thus:

   k/G  = [gamma_e*m_e*((2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3 + (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6)

         + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3+n6)]/(q1*q2)


   4*(q^2)*k/G  = [(2/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n2 + n5)

         - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n3 + n6)

         + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3 + n6)]/(n1*n4)


   4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]

           + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]

Thus it is readily possible to solve for gamma_up and gamma_dowm to make
k/G constant for a given ratio (n2+n5)/(n1*n4) of up quarks, and ratio (n3
+ n6) of down quarks.  However, there must then be some reason these quarks
have differing gammas in differing element MIXES, without regard to what
element nucleus they are in or even which mass they are in!  Otherwise k/G
is not constant.  This is not a likely natural outcome.

The subject equation

  Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

appears to be not valid, and not easily and simply fixed.  However, the
given equation gives the value

  [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1

or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.

Perhaps the implied  beat frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336
MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz (not relativistically adjusted) would be of some
use, maybe in verifying the theory.

There is also the matter of the expected radiation inherent to the string
motion of individual quarks (your gravity), vs radiation due to the motion
of the quarks in the nucleus (more along the lines where I picked the quark
energy.)  However, it would seem reasonabkle that these energies could
exchange in the nucleus.  Given the energy that the orbital electron can
add to the nucleus occasionally, and the binding energy there, it is
amazing the nucleus does not radiate due to quark motion.  This is all very
unsatisfying.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 22:44:49 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
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Yes, this is my final answer!  8^)

At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
>
>For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
>
>Regards,   Frederick


I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.

Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then

  m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2

  v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037

and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.

Looking at your earlier relation:

  kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2

from the point of view of the force between two masses m1 and m2 due to
their charges, we can reorganize the equation to look for the constant:

  k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2

Using m_e, m_up, m_down, for the masses, perhaps this should look like:

  k/G = [(gamma_e*n1*m_e + gamma_up*n2*m_up + gamma_down*n3*m_down)/q1] *
        [(gamma_e*n4*m_e + gamma_up*n5*m_up + gamma_down*n6*m_down)/q2]


where we know that:

    q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)

    n1 = (2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)

and

    q2 = 2*n4*q

    n4 = (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6

but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that

   gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma

for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
gammas are constant, thus:

   k/G  = [gamma_e*m_e*((2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3 + (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6)

         + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3+n6)]/(q1*q2)


   4*(q^2)*k/G  = [(2/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n2 + n5)

         - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n3 + n6)

         + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3 + n6)]/(n1*n4)


   4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]

           + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]

Thus it is readily possible to solve for gamma_up and gamma_dowm to make
k/G constant for a given ratio (n2+n5)/(n1*n4) for up quarks, and ratio (n3
+ n6)/(n1*n4) for down quarks.  However, there must then be some reason
these quarks have differing gammas in differing element MIXES, without
regard to
what element nucleus they are in or even which mass they are in!  Otherwise
k/G is not constant.  This is not a likely natural outcome.

The subject equation

  Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2

appears to be not valid, and not easily and simply fixed.  However, the
given equation gives the value

  [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1

or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.

Perhaps the implied  beat frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336
MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz (not relativistically adjusted) would be of some
use, maybe in verifying the theory.

There is also the matter of the expected radiation inherent to the string
motion of individual quarks (your gravity), vs radiation due to the motion
of the quarks in the nucleus (more along the lines where I picked the quark
energy.)  However, it would seem reasonabkle that these energies could
exchange in the nucleus.  Given the energy that the orbital electron can
add to the nucleus occasionally, and the binding energy there, it is
amazing the nucleus does not radiate due to quark motion.  This is all very
unsatisfying.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  1 23:31:57 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Whirlpools and Vorticies
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:28:31 PDT
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John "El Presidente" Fields wrote:

>PRESS RELEASE
>
>"David Dennard, the world renowned theorist, said today that everyone
>who disagreed with him were "just flapping their jaws"
>
>When asked what he meant, Dennard stated that he would "...ask for
>Scientific Method testing of his theory"
>
>---
Dennard Corrects Inaccurate PRESS RELEASE:

David Dennard, relatively unknown theorist, but with momentum building to 
potential hurricane strength as his Whirlpower Declaration, with numerous 
votes and recent independent backup, has cut across the scientific frontiers 
of frame dragging, mysterious dark matter, flat space, and lightspeed.  All 
discoveries predicted by his new theory and the logic of relative density 
displacement before announced by the scientific community.

He said today that folks who disagreed that whirlpools are unknown to 
science were using put down language without actually looking into the facts 
and not using proper analysis.  They are "just flapping their jaws".

When asked what that meant he stated he was asking for real Scientific 
Method testing.

>John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft

Are you sure?   :-)

There are 5A - 2Z "Quarks" in any Nucleus:

2A "up" or Positive Charge q

2A - Z "down" or Negative Charge q

 A - Z     Neutrinos

Thus 5A - 2Z and  Z external Negative Charge q Electrons.

You can get a good idea of the Quark energy distribution from the Nuclear Magnetic Moment.

Since a Negative Charge "rotating" in a clockwise circle constitutes a current flowing
in that direction, it will be attracted to a Positive Charge rotating in a counterclockwise
direction. 

Thus in a proton the net charge is plus 1q and the net spin is + 1/2:

------>   +

<------   -

------->   +                              <-------   -    (external electron)


The Nuclear Magnetic Moment says that one of the positive ones has a bit more energy/mass
than the other one. 

Obviously the masses sum the same way that turns in a solenoid sum to
contribute to the magnetic force. 

Thus for any ensemble of nucleons there is a magnetic/electrogravity property
of 0.02583 Ampere-Meters per Kilogram, thus the electrogravity force is

1.0E-7 * 0.02583*M1*0.02583*M2/R^2

FJS


> Yes, this is my final answer!  8^)
> 
> At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >Summing it up:
> >
> >Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
> >
> >Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
> >
> >Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
> >in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
> >"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
> >gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.
> >
> >For the electron, gamma = 2.04E21 and for a "quark", gamma = 3.3E18
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> I guess we should ignore the prior problems associated with the dipole
> nature of the magnetic field, and it's 1/r^3 nature, and start with the
> obvious problem with the above, the lack of correspondence between m1, m2
> and q.  There is also the inability to assign a fixed ratio k/G.
> 
> A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
> two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
> charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
> electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
> no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
> of up to down quarks. A cavendish experiment would thus give differing
> results for lead than for copper or nickel.  To make this work out you have
> to be able to assign differing gammas to the up and down quarks.
> 
> Next, if the EM field is transmitted by virtual photons, then is no reason
> to expect that they do not move in straight lines, except in the case of
> extreme gravitational fields.  If virtual photons travel in straight lines,
> then there is no reason to think the Coulomb field about a quark rotates.
> There is therefore no direct reason to assign a gamma to them which is
> based on (field) radius, e.g. the radius of the earth.  There is reason to
> assign a gamma based on their motion, e.g. the motion of the quarks in the
> nucleus, because this affects the momentum of the emitted virtual photons.
> If the quark velocity in the nucleus is determined by mass kinetics, then
> 
>   m_up*(v_up)^2 = m_down*(v_down)^2
> 
>   v_up/v_down = (m_down/m_up)^(1/2) = 0.997037
> 
> and thus we are not free to pick any old gammas in order make a fixed k/G.
> 
> Looking at your earlier relation:
> 
>   kq^2/r^2  =  G*(gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/r^2
> 
> from the point of view of the force between two masses m1 and m2 due to
> their charges, we can reorganize the equation to look for the constant:
> 
>   k/G = (gamma*m1)*(gamma*m2)/q^2
> 
> Using m_e, m_up, m_down, for the masses, perhaps this should look like:
> 
>   k/G = [(gamma_e*n1*m_e + gamma_up*n2*m_up + gamma_down*n3*m_down)/q1] *
>         [(gamma_e*n4*m_e + gamma_up*n5*m_up + gamma_down*n6*m_down)/q2]
> 
> 
> where we know that:
> 
>     q1 = 2*n1*q  (there are n1 electrons and n1 protons)
> 
>     n1 = (2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3  (total hadron charge = electron charge)
> 
> and
> 
>     q2 = 2*n4*q
> 
>     n4 = (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6
> 
> but we can not know or specify the ratios n2/n3 or n5/n6, or n1/n2 or n1/n3
> or n4/n5 or n4/n6.  We further know that
> 
>    gamma_up/gamma_down = Kgamma
> 
> for some fixed constant Kgamma, and we can even further assume all the
> gammas are constant, thus:
> 
>    k/G  = [gamma_e*m_e*((2/3) n2 - (1/3) n3 + (2/3) n5 - (1/3) n6)
> 
>          + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3+n6)]/(q1*q2)
> 
> 
>    4*(q^2)*k/G  = [(2/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n2 + n5)
> 
>          - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e*(n3 + n6)
> 
>          + gamma_up*m_up*(n2 + n5) + gamma_down*m_down*(n3 + n6)]/(n1*n4)
> 
> 
>    4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]
> 
>            + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]
> 
> Thus it is readily possible to solve for gamma_up and gamma_dowm to make
> k/G constant for a given ratio (n2+n5)/(n1*n4) for up quarks, and ratio (n3
> + n6)/(n1*n4) for down quarks.  However, there must then be some reason
> these quarks have differing gammas in differing element MIXES, without
> regard to
> what element nucleus they are in or even which mass they are in!  Otherwise
> k/G is not constant.  This is not a likely natural outcome.
> 
> The subject equation
> 
>   Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
> 
> appears to be not valid, and not easily and simply fixed.  However, the
> given equation gives the value
> 
>   [1/(4(pi)eo)]*q^2/(G*m1*m2) = 1
> 
> or q^2/(e0*G*m1*m2), being unitless, which it is, so the units look right.
> 
> Perhaps the implied  beat frequency around (3.1 MHz)(338 MeV - 336
> MeV)/(338 Mev) = 18.4 kHz (not relativistically adjusted) would be of some
> use, maybe in verifying the theory.
> 
> There is also the matter of the expected radiation inherent to the string
> motion of individual quarks (your gravity), vs radiation due to the motion
> of the quarks in the nucleus (more along the lines where I picked the quark
> energy.)  However, it would seem reasonabkle that these energies could
> exchange in the nucleus.  Given the energy that the orbital electron can
> add to the nucleus occasionally, and the binding energy there, it is
> amazing the nucleus does not radiate due to quark motion.  This is all very
> unsatisfying.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  2 01:30:42 2000
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Lots to be said about isotopes and gamma here.

 http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/Papers/rs-wallace-tampere.html

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  2 13:01:07 2000
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More Fodder:

Calculations show that a Current (DC) " Amplitude Modulated" at ~ 3.1 Megahertz
feeding a resistance (incandescent) or arc discharge load would be a good choice
for an experiment.

The skin effect thickness for a silver-plated conductor is ~ 0.003 inches.

Since the modulation signal doesn't go negative, but varies from near zero
to some maximum value there should be less radiation?

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  2 15:55:38 2000
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Back on board, all work on Whirlpower is done on board.

Robin van Spaandonk writes:

>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

I'm trying.  Evolution does not throw away what folks are doing.  A beak get 
bigger because there are more bigger seeds than small seeds.  Things change. 
  It takes time.

Sure I'll scream and yell for change, NOW.  But it has taken years of 
screaming NOW, just to get the ball to roll an inch.

And it is moving.  And more whirlpools will be built.  And the data will 
speak.  Soon, I hope.  Or maybe not, maybe be hundreds of years or 
thousands.  Eternity is a long time.

But my theory is real.  It comes to a testable conclusion.  That test will 
provide new data we do not have.

The Declaration has been shown correct and valid and credible, even though I 
am not an important person.  The Declaration has withstood this and many 
other lists, for years.

Whirlpools, no data found, no tests, no recognition by science of this 
event, ignored by science.  Back up independently, lots of votes, 10,000 
archives pages where my challenge has not been met.

That's real, that's real science research.  It is in print on lots of 
archived lists.  That is credible.

That does not prove Whirlpower.  That proves data on whirlpools are a gap in 
scientific knowledge.

Anyone can post the data and I will dispose of The Declaration.  Not 
withstanding, the Declaration stands as valid.

And some more votes would be great. :)

David Dennard
The Paradigm Shift
http://www.whirlpower.cc


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  2 23:16:16 2000
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Horace asks:

>
> How do you arrive at ~ 3.1 Megahertz?
>
Simple, frequency, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma] = 3.1 Megahertz
 r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark
 gamma = 3.32E18 for the
 alpha = 0.00729 729

OTOH, it could be, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma*alpha] = 22.704 Kilohertz 
in which case GR is allowing Space-time "Warp" and 
Time Travel might be on the Horizon.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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Here's a little blurb on GR and NASA'S Breakthrough Propulsion Physics
BPP program.   

 http://casimir.eecs.uic.edu/~serry/QUANTUM/bpp.html

Since the Time Dilation/Gamma tie into this because of
the Accelerated Reference Frame,  v^2/r of the circling quarks...

Regards,      Frederick



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 01:39:56 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
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At 12:11 AM 8/3/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Horace asks:
>
>>
>> How do you arrive at ~ 3.1 Megahertz?
>>
>Simple, frequency, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma] = 3.1 Megahertz
> r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark
> gamma = 3.32E18 for the
> alpha = 0.00729 729
>
>OTOH, it could be, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma*alpha] = 22.704 Kilohertz
>in which case GR is allowing Space-time "Warp" and
>Time Travel might be on the Horizon.   :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick


How do you get r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 01:49:26 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft

Horace wrote:


> At 12:11 AM 8/3/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >Horace asks:
> >
> >>
> >> How do you arrive at ~ 3.1 Megahertz?
> >>
> >Simple, frequency, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma] = 3.1 Megahertz
> > r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark
> > gamma = 3.32E18 for the
> > alpha = 0.00729 729
> >
> >OTOH, it could be, f = c/[2(Pi)r*gamma*alpha] = 22.704 Kilohertz
> >in which case GR is allowing Space-time "Warp" and
> >Time Travel might be on the Horizon.   :-)
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> How do you get r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark?

Simple too,   r = kq^2/Energy      Energy = Mp/3*c^2   = 1.66E-27/3 *c^2 ~ = 5.0E-11 Joules

Okay?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 04:21:03 2000
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Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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At 2:44 AM 8/3/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>> How do you get r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark?
>
>Simple too,   r = kq^2/Energy      Energy = Mp/3*c^2   = 1.66E-27/3 *c^2 ~
>= 5.0E-11 Joules
>
>Okay?   :-)


Here,  Energy = Mp/3*c^2 is only an approximation, because up and down
qaurks have differing masses.  Thus we would expect an ~10 kHz beat
frequency to emerge.   The problem is getting lots of nucleii in synch so
as to create a detectable field.  Also, it appears the gammas are hard
wired now, so it is not likely the equation

   4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]

           + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]

will be satisfied, even though it has an apparent degree of freedom.

I realize all this, both my comments and yours, are speculative anyway.  It
does seem that the major problem is one of synchronizing the nuclei.  NMR
might be useful for that.   One problem with NMR is that EM shielding is
difficult.   Also, the anticipated gravitational field range is short,
because the EM induced gravitational fields, at least as discussed by
Stirniman, both the magnetogravitic and electrogravitic fields, are dipole
fields if I read correctly.  Rotating the matter can align the nucleii to
some degree, as has been used in variou experiments Stirniman describes.

I think the possibility that fast circular charge motion might cause an
anisotropic electrosatic field, as I discussed earlier, may be interesting,
as applied to the nucleus.  As Larry Wharton pointed out, however, the
effect of the relativistic and directional excess charge, when spread over
randomized directions in 3D, is null.  However, if appropriate nuclei are
aligned magnetically, then an anisotropic, and non-conservative field
should arise at the magnetic poles.  One implication is that selected
magnet types should tend to repel better than they attract when the poles
are reversed.  Another is that, with the right selection of materials and
electron velocities, motors that work mainly in the repulsion mode should
work more efficiently than motors that apply force in the attraction mode,
in selected geometries.  However, there remains the question of whether
electrons in orbitals actually move at all, or whether they are merely
static quantum waveforms.  A similar question applies to the quarks in the
nucleus, since they do not radiate, even though they consist of both charge
types.  The chunkiness of the nucleus may not actually exist unless sampled
by a fast moving small particle.

Ah, if ... if ...  if ...

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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People throw this around from time to time, but I have one question...

AIR (as I recall)
The descriptions of this effect and the resultant measurement were done with 
a star and its (image) thru the G-lens of an eclipse.

First Question
Did anyone take the mass of the moon into account when determining the 
predicted result?

Second question was the true position of the star directly behind the sun, 
or to one side?
  If behind, was the observed image a ring around the sun, as the light was 
distorted equally in 3 dimensions?

What is the equation which relates this event to the cosmological constant?

Thanx
Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 13:15:46 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravitational lensing
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:13:50 PDT
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Good questions.  I am very interested in what folks think on this subject.

Einstein said the measurment must be 1.75 is his theory on curved void 
finite space was correct.  But the measurment has constantly come up short.  
This has been verified on a number of lists by other folks but details are 
sketchy.  Why is this?  If the entire concept we were told was correct is a 
lie, now shown is a lie by the proof of flat space, why have these most 
important details not been well known.

My theory is the gov has clinged to it to try and make us think faster than 
light speed travel is impossible.  Thus no UFOs.  Thus they control the 
skies, and MasterCard.

Ignorance and stupidity rule this planet I do believe.  And little men 
trying to play God being mister El big shot know it all.  :)

David


>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Gravitational lensing
>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:46:07 CDT
>
>People throw this around from time to time, but I have one question...
>
>AIR (as I recall)
>The descriptions of this effect and the resultant measurement were done 
>with
>a star and its (image) thru the G-lens of an eclipse.
>
>First Question
>Did anyone take the mass of the moon into account when determining the
>predicted result?
>
>Second question was the true position of the star directly behind the sun,
>or to one side?
>  If behind, was the observed image a ring around the sun, as the light was
>distorted equally in 3 dimensions?
>
>What is the equation which relates this event to the cosmological constant?
>
>Thanx
>Merlyn
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 14:26:25 2000
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: EVWorld reviews Toyota Prius / Amish hi-tech
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This week's EV World (http://www.evworld.com) has a nice little review of
the Toyota hybrid production car:

"Bravo Toyota, 2001 Toyota Prius Test Drive," by John Stigall 

It sounds like fun to drive. I almost wish I needed a new car! Hank
Scudder's electric car looks TOO HOT for the likes of me.

I was just in Lancaster, PA where I saw a number of high-tech fiberglass
body, all-electronic control horse carriages, made by and for the Amish
people up there who do not believe in owning cars. They ride in them, and
they often lease buses, but in the 1920s they decided that individuals
owning cars  disrupt their community. They are not luddites; they have
nothing against technology per se. They incorporate the latest technology
for making light carriages with safety lights, and they use ultra-modern
pasteurization and refrigeration, but they incorporate these things
intelligently, which I find admirable. I think they go too far in some
ways. I would not want to work all day on a farm in PA in the hot sun with
hand tools. Being me, I would opt for an air-conditioned tractor equipped
with the latest GPS computer. But that would only be economical for a huge
farm, on a scale that would destroy the Amish settlement pattern and
community. 

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 14:36:42 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at ~20 meters with the same work.

Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to fill the other tank.

It appears that analogy on thermodynamics does not work, if it worked it was possible to build and lossless heat transformer.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>Hi,
>
>Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a
>determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have
>an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at
>~20 meters with the same work.
>
>Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to
>fill the other tank.

***{How is the work reversible in either case? If you try to reverse the
work required to fill the 500 liter tank by letting it drain into the 1000
liter tank, you find that 500 liters is not enough to fill a 1000 liter
tank; and if you try to reverse the work required to fill the 1000 liter
tank by letting it drain into the 500 liter tank, you find that the water
refuses to flow uphill. :-) --MJ}***

>
>It appears that analogy on thermodynamics does not work, if it worked it
>was possible to build and lossless heat transformer.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 17:47:55 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a
> >determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have
> >an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at
> >~20 meters with the same work.
> >
> >Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to
> >fill the other tank.
> 
> ***{How is the work reversible in either case? If you try to reverse the
> work required to fill the 500 lt tank by letting it drain into the 1000
> liter tank, you find that 500 lt is not enough to fill a 1000 liter
> tank; and if you try to reverse the work required to fill the 1000 liter
> tank by letting it drain into the 500 lt tank, you find that the water
> refuses to flow uphill. :-) --MJ}***


Filling 500 lt above tank with 1000 liters:

Hang a pulley just above 20 meters. Transfer half of the 1000 liter to the 500 liters tank. Tie each tank to a string passing trough the pulley.  Release the  1000 liter tank down. While it touch down, the 500 tank will elevate to its position. (It may no

t necessary to make some kick to tanks to move as bigger tank is heavier:) ) 


Filling 1000 lt tank from 500 lt:

We already preserved a spare full 500 lt water at the ground level for the experimenters, and the pulley with a string are ready as usual.:)


It's pity that there is no thermodynamic pulley.:)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 19:56:34 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:46:54 EDT
Subject: CF Critics and BLP's IPO
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In his report on ICCF-8, Section 3.2.2, Douglas Morrison wrote:  

<<There has been  discussion among critics of cold fusion, as to what would 
happen if the Company [BLP] were to attempt an Initial Public Offering, IPO, 
as then SEC rules would apply.>>

Does anyone know anything about this discussion?  Has there been such 
discussion on SPF?

Tom Stolper

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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:56:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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To: Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com>, David Dennard <daviddennard@hotmail.com>
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Subject: My curious .... Gravitational lensing
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	Dear Adam and David,

	I always  liked to read aout and study gravity.  In the letter
below there is a small part of discussion which seems to be about an
experiment and  Einstein: 

	
	"Einstein said the measurment must be 1.75 is his theory"

	Can you please let us know what the experimental protocol was?

	We would like to know about, please,

	Q-1:	1.75 ... of what kind of unit is used in the measurement?
	Q-2:	How was the "1.75" measured?
	Q-3:	What investigator [s] participated and how was the wok
			done?

		 and please,

	On questions "Q-1" through "Q:3" 

	A)	Do we know if the  experiment has been done more than
once?
	B)	Who is the Author [s]?



	Thank you,

	John Schnurer




On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> Good questions.  I am very interested in what folks think on this subject.
> 
> Einstein said the measurment must be 1.75 is his theory on curved void 
> finite space was correct.  But the measurment has constantly come up short.  
> This has been verified on a number of lists by other folks but details are 
> sketchy.  Why is this?  If the entire concept we were told was correct is a 
> lie, now shown is a lie by the proof of flat space, why have these most 
> important details not been well known.
> 
> My theory is the gov has clinged to it to try and make us think faster than 
> light speed travel is impossible.  Thus no UFOs.  Thus they control the 
> skies, and MasterCard.
> 
> Ignorance and stupidity rule this planet I do believe.  And little men 
> trying to play God being mister El big shot know it all.  :)
> 
> David
> 
> 
> >From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Gravitational lensing
> >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:46:07 CDT
> >
> >People throw this around from time to time, but I have one question...
> >
> >AIR (as I recall)
> >The descriptions of this effect and the resultant measurement were done 
> >with
> >a star and its (image) thru the G-lens of an eclipse.
> >
> >First Question
> >Did anyone take the mass of the moon into account when determining the
> >predicted result?
> >
> >Second question was the true position of the star directly behind the sun,
> >or to one side?
> >  If behind, was the observed image a ring around the sun, as the light was
> >distorted equally in 3 dimensions?
> >
> >What is the equation which relates this event to the cosmological constant?
> >
> >Thanx
> >Merlyn
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  3 20:44:49 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:42:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a
>> >determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have
>> >an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at
>> >~20 meters with the same work.
>> >
>> >Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to
>> >fill the other tank.
>>
>> ***{How is the work reversible in either case? If you try to reverse the
>> work required to fill the 500 lt tank by letting it drain into the 1000
>> liter tank, you find that 500 lt is not enough to fill a 1000 liter
>> tank; and if you try to reverse the work required to fill the 1000 liter
>> tank by letting it drain into the 500 lt tank, you find that the water
>> refuses to flow uphill. :-) --MJ}***
>
>
>Filling 500 lt above tank with 1000 liters:
>
>Hang a pulley just above 20 meters. Transfer half of the 1000 liter to the
>500 liters tank. Tie each tank to a string passing trough the pulley.
>Release the  1000 liter tank down. While it touch down, the 500 tank will
>elevate to its position. (It may not necessary to make some kick to tanks
>to move as bigger tank is heavier:) )
>
>
>Filling 1000 lt tank from 500 lt:
>
>We already preserved a spare full 500 lt water at the ground level for the
>experimenters, and the pulley with a string are ready as usual.:)
>
>
>It's pity that there is no thermodynamic pulley.:)
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

***{It doesn't work, Hamdi. In order to say that the process is reversible,
you have to demonstrate that it goes both ways. But it doesn't. You can get
the half-full 1000 liter tank to the lower level and the full 500 liter
tank to the upper level, but once there, you can't reverse the process. The
reason: reversal, in this case, entails restoring the original situation.
Merely letting the 500 liter tank drain down into the 1000 liter one
doesn't do that, because the original situation involved a half-full 1000
liter tank and a full 500 liter tank at the same level, not a full 1000
liter tank and an empty 500 liter one at different levels. --MJ}***


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 23:43:49 -0400
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><<There has been  discussion among critics of cold fusion, as to what would 
>happen if the Company [BLP] were to attempt an Initial Public Offering, IPO, 
>as then SEC rules would apply.>>
>
>Does anyone know anything about this discussion?  Has there been such 
>discussion on SPF?
>
>Tom Stolper
>
>
I think Morrison is referring to "dirty locker room talk" that he and 
Park may be having about BLP in their eternal quest to destroy frontier 
science such as cold fusion and BLP activities.  These bastards are 
constantly plotting and scheming -- behind closed doors, not on spf 
necessarily, to find ways to stop CF and BLP work.

Gene Mallove

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 04:17:42 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

Except for friction losses, you can do it.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:42:20 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{It doesn't work, Hamdi. In order to say that the process is reversible,
>you have to demonstrate that it goes both ways. But it doesn't. You can get
>the half-full 1000 liter tank to the lower level and the full 500 liter
>tank to the upper level, but once there, you can't reverse the process. The
>reason: reversal, in this case, entails restoring the original situation.
>Merely letting the 500 liter tank drain down into the 1000 liter one
>doesn't do that, because the original situation involved a half-full 1000
>liter tank and a full 500 liter tank at the same level, not a full 1000
>liter tank and an empty 500 liter one at different levels. --MJ}***

You need a tool.  Construct a pulley at 30 meters above base through
which you pass a 40 meter long rope.  Tied to each end of the rope is
a 1 liter "bucket."

Assume you first fill the 1000 liter tank that's 10 meters above base.

To fill the 500 liter tank at 20 meters above base, fill both buckets
from the 1000 liter tank at 10 meters.  Then (remember, no friction :)
lower one bucket to 0 meters while raising the other bucket to the
tank at 20 meters.  Repeat.

To fill the 1000 liter tank at 10 meters above base, fill one bucket
from the 500 liter tank and the other bucket from a source at 0
meters.  Then bring both buckets to 10 meters and empty.  Repeat.

The only energy needed is that to overcome friction.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 01:19:36 2000
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John Schnurer writes in reply to my saying:

"Einstein said the measurment must be 1.75 is his theory"

Can you please let us know what the experimental protocol was?

We would like to know about, please,

Q-1:	1.75 ... of what kind of unit is used in the measurement?

John I have gone through this many times.

!.75 seconds of an arc was the angle Einstein said had to found in the 
measurement of the gravitational lens experiment he proposed if his theory 
on curved space was to be correct.  Stated everythng "hinged" on that.

The measurement came out 1.64 but they said close enough.

I say, not close enough.

( From Lincoln Barnett's, "The Universe and Dr. Einstein" )


The rest of your questions the "real" scienists on this list can answer.  
They should easily know what all the science we were told was correct was 
based on.  But we will find they do not know and will not reply to this 
post.  They never have.  Most have me on block because what I say makes all 
of science we know of look ignorant.  That is unacceptable, so just ignore 
the fool.

Can the fool ask more questions that the wise man can answer and thus become 
more wise?

Looks like it me.

And I did it before flat space was even announced as a possibilty.  Now it 
is proven and proves I was correct.

And the Whirlpower Declaration is standing as valid and credible on this 
list like is has here and everywhere for years.  Yet, "science" continues to 
ignore this because I am not a scientist and have no way of knowing how to 
get them to recognize this.

If anyone knows how or if anyone on this list is a real scientist then you 
betray everything about the Scientific Method, theorists propose, scientists 
dispose, by not admitting or reporting my Declaration has not been disposed 
of.

David Dennard
The Cosmological Constant
The Paradigm Shift
The Wild Card
http://www.whirlpower.cc


Q-2:	How was the "1.75" measured?
Q-3:	What investigator [s] participated and how was the wok
>			done?
>
>		 and please,
>
>	On questions "Q-1" through "Q:3"
>
>	A)	Do we know if the  experiment has been done more than
>once?
>	B)	Who is the Author [s]?
>
>
>
>	Thank you,
>
>	John Schnurer


________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 05:29:27 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:24:49 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

I encountered this paper appearing today on LANL archive.
It provide analyses of many cases discussed on vortex with figures.

Regards, hamdi ucar


http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0008006

On electromagnetic induction - Giuseppe Giuliani

 A general law for electromagnetic induction phenomena is derived from
 Lorentz force and Maxwell equation connecting electric field and time
 variation of magnetic field. The derivation provides with a unified
 mathematical treatment the statement according to which
 electromagnetic induction is the product of two independent phenomena:
 time variation of magnetic field and effects of magnetic field on moving
 charges. The general law deals easily-without ad hoc assumptions-with
 typical cases usually considered as exceptions to the flux rule and
 contains the flux rule as a particular case.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 09:29:59 2000
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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
References: <v04011700b5afb8234709 [207.8.127.49]> <v04011701b5afe931d467@[207.8.127.48]> <399041c9.67933523@mail.midiowa.net>
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Hi Mitchell,

Dean is right. Me too, you missed my second paragraph. i did not explicitly described it because it was exactly the reversal of the fist method.

Actually, liquid or solid masses make no difference. Initially, I had a feeling that it would be easier to make analogies between liquids and heat.

Isn't it possible to convert 1000 liters of 10 degrees of water to 500 liters 20 degrees of water where the ambient temperature is 0 degree without an external work? If this is not possible, the reason would be the reverse process is too easy. :) Merely m

ixing 500 liters of 20 degrees  with 500 liters of 0 degrees. No pulley is required.

Regards, hamdi


"Dean T. Miller" wrote:
> 
> Hi Mitchell,
> 
> Except for friction losses, you can do it.
> 
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:42:20 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
> wrote:
> 
> >***{It doesn't work, Hamdi. In order to say that the process is reversible,
> >you have to demonstrate that it goes both ways. But it doesn't. You can get
> >the half-full 1000 liter tank to the lower level and the full 500 liter
> >tank to the upper level, but once there, you can't reverse the process. The
> >reason: reversal, in this case, entails restoring the original situation.
> >Merely letting the 500 liter tank drain down into the 1000 liter one
> >doesn't do that, because the original situation involved a half-full 1000
> >liter tank and a full 500 liter tank at the same level, not a full 1000
> >liter tank and an empty 500 liter one at different levels. --MJ}***
> 
> You need a tool.  Construct a pulley at 30 meters above base through
> which you pass a 40 meter long rope.  Tied to each end of the rope is
> a 1 liter "bucket."
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 10:35:54 2000
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 <v04011701b5afe931d467 [207.8.127.48]>
 <399041c9.67933523 mail.midiowa.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:26:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>Hi Mitchell,
>
>Dean is right. Me too, you missed my second paragraph. i did not
>explicitly described it because it was exactly the reversal of the fist
>method.
>
>Actually, liquid or solid masses make no difference. Initially, I had a
>feeling that it would be easier to make analogies between liquids and heat.
>
>Isn't it possible to convert 1000 liters of 10 degrees of water to 500
>liters 20 degrees of water where the ambient temperature is 0 degree
>without an external work? If this is not possible, the reason would be the
>reverse process is too easy. :) Merely mixing 500 liters of 20 degrees
>with 500 liters of 0 degrees. No pulley is required.

***{You keep switching from example to example, Hamdi. You need to pick one
example and stick with it until you can see clearly whether it was
reversible or not. Concerning your latest instance, the answer is that it
is possible to mix 500 liters of 20 degree water with 500 liters of 0
degree water, getting 1000 liters of 10 degree water. But how, within the
realm of ordinary human experience, do you reverse that state of
affairs--i.e., how do you return to the state from which you began? Here is
the problem: heat flows downhill--from hot to cold--with much higher
efficiency than it flows uphill. Result: when you try to separate the 1000
liters of 10 degree water back into 500 liters of 20 degree water and 500
liters of 0 degree water, you are going to have to invest a lot of energy
in the conversion process--which means: the real-world process isn't
reversible. --MJ}***

>
>Regards, hamdi

[snip]

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:14:27 GMT
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Hi Hamdi,

On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:27:37 +0300, hamdi ucar
<hamdix verisoft.com.tr> wrote:

>Dean is right. Me too, you missed my second paragraph. i did not explicitly described it because it was exactly the reversal of the fist method.
>
>Actually, liquid or solid masses make no difference. Initially, I had a feeling that it would be easier to make analogies between liquids and heat.
>
>Isn't it possible to convert 1000 liters of 10 degrees of water to 500 liters 20 degrees of water where the ambient temperature is 0 degree without an external work? If this is not possible, the reason would be the reverse process is too easy. :) Merely 

mixing 500 liters of 20 degrees  with 500 liters of 0 degrees. No pulley is required.

But you're missing one important thing.

I was ignoring friction in the water tank example.

Easy to do with a "thought experiment" but impossible to do in the
real world.

Moving heat around between masses has an equivalent friction loss.
The vortex heat separator works well -- but need power to overcome the
friction losses involved in creating the vortex.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 12:46:36 2000
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Message-ID: <398B1D32.B990B3AE bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 15:44:50 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Anyone want to venture a guess about the nature of this dark
material on Mars?

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/images/M0401411.html

TIA, 

Terry

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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:
> 
[snip]
> But you're missing one important thing.
> 
> I was ignoring friction in the water tank example.
> 
> Easy to do with a "thought experiment" but impossible to do in the
> real world.
> 


I am ignoring friction losses in this case logically, because they are not proportional to the energy transferred between states in this example.

> Moving heat around between masses has an equivalent friction loss.
> The vortex heat separator works well -- but need power to overcome the
> friction losses involved in creating the vortex.
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

You may choose frictionless fluids (superfluids) to get rid of friction losses.

Friction losses does not explain why heat experiment is irreversible.

I noticed that the difference between "heat" and "water" experiment is not just on the irreversible part. Water experiment require equal skill to change state to other state. But the heat experiment does not require any skill to mix the hot and cold water

. If you add some skill, for example a thermocouple, it is possible extract some energy while mixing the cold with the hot. Where it come or where it is stole this extra energy? Is it related to the energy to reproduce the hot and cold water?

I think I should find a book on thermodynamic instead. :(

hamdi ucar

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hamdi ucar

>I think I should find a book on thermodynamic instead. :(

If we do return to the cosmological constant the laws of thermodynamics are 
a bogus as a three dollar bill.

I say they are.  The flat space teams from Princeton to Berkely do too.

Just takes one simple understanding.  Gravity causes evaporation.  Heat 
vaporizes, gravity evaporates.

Once you "get it" the rest is child's play.  Heat is static, gravity is 
dynamic.  That's the cosmological constant.

David

________________________________________________________________________
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 04, 2000
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:37:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 4 Aug 00   Washington, DC

1. SURVIVOR: CREATIONISTS ARE VOTED OFF THE ISLAND.  It was just
one year ago that the state school board in Kansas removed human
evolution and any mention of the big bang from the state science
standards (WN 13 Aug 99).  In Tuesday's Republican Primary, which
is almost the same as election in Kansas, three of the four
creationist board members running for reelection fell victim to
natural selection.  The largest margin of defeat was reserved for
Linda Holloway, the board chair, who had raised $100K for a race
that would normally have cost a few hundred dollars.  Tuesday's
vote virtually assures that last year's action will be reversed.

2. WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE?: SHE SHOULD READ WHAT'S NEW.  
A contestant on last night's program was asked: "The James Randi
Educational Foundation offers $1 million to anyone who can
provide solid evidence of what?"  She didn't know!  The correct
choice was "paranormal powers," but the offer is much broader
than that.  For example, JREF just offered the $1M to Florsheim,
if it can demonstrate its claims for MagneForce Footwear in a
formal double-blind scientific test.  My question to you is: Will
Florsheim take up the challenge?  I think you know the answer. 

3. MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: BECOME A PUBLIC AFFAIRS FELLOW AND SAVE
THE WORLD. The APS Washington Office is looking for an idealistic 
physicist to spend a year in Washington working on improving the
relationship between science and government.  Application details
will be posted Monday on www.aps.org under Public Affairs.

4. THE MOUSE THAT ROARED: THE NORTH KOREAN MISSILE SHAKEDOWN.
According to a story in this morning's Washington Post, N. Korea
has reaffirmed to Russia that it will drop its ballistic missile
program -- if other countries will just launch a few satellites
for them every year.  This is clearly a bargain -- for $60B you
can launch a lot of satellites.  But do we see a pattern here? 
When we objected to North Korea's development of nuclear power,
Pyongyang agreed to let us do it for them.  Next, perhaps, North
Korea will begin developing nuclear submarines -- for peaceful
purposes of course.  Perhaps they'll agree to let us supply them.

5. LIVIN LA VIDA LOCA: WHITE HOUSE PANEL ON ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE. 
President Clinton last month named James Gordon, who heads the
Center for Mind-Body Medicine, to chair a White House Commission
on Alternative Medicine.  Gordon's book, "Manifesto for a New
Medicine," finds no reason to doubt any alternative therapy.  My
personal favorite is his discovery that hypnosis can "cure warts,
and increase breast size."  The White House panel is charged with
recommending public policies that will "maximize the benefits to
Americans of complementary and alternative medicine." 

(Maria Cranor contributed to this week's WN.)

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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>Anyone want to venture a guess about the nature of this dark
>material on Mars?
>
>http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/images/M0401411.html
>
>TIA,
>
>Terry

My guess is it's an iron oxide. You can see that it has both seeped 
out and been blown around by the wind. Perhaps the water seeps slowly 
through iron bearing soils (from the meteor impact material?) and 
turns dark from bearing these dissolved and powdered oxides. It 
accumulatse where the seepage occurs and turns to blowing dust as the 
water sublimates and the material dries out.

That, or it's bread mold.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 23:00:36 GMT
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On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 23:38:35 +0300, hamdi ucar
<hamdix verisoft.com.tr> wrote:

>"Dean T. Miller" wrote:
>> 
>[snip]
>> But you're missing one important thing.
>> 
>> I was ignoring friction in the water tank example.
>> 
>> Easy to do with a "thought experiment" but impossible to do in the
>> real world.
>
>I am ignoring friction losses in this case logically, because they are not proportional to the energy transferred between states in this example.

Um, I'm not so sure about that.

>You may choose frictionless fluids (superfluids) to get rid of friction losses.
>
>Friction losses does not explain why heat experiment is irreversible.
>
>I noticed that the difference between "heat" and "water" experiment is not 
>just on the irreversible part. Water experiment require equal skill to change 
>state to other state. But the heat experiment does not require any skill to mix 
>the hot and cold water. 

The Earth doesn't need any "skill" to move water from 30 meters to 0
meters.

>If you add some skill, for example a thermocouple, 
>it is possible extract some energy while mixing the cold with the hot. Where 
>it come or where it is stole this extra energy? Is it related to the energy to 
>reproduce the hot and cold water?

That's why I used the example of the vortex heat separator (I forgot
the inventor's name).  You feed compressed air into the inlet and get
cold air out of one outlet and hot air out of the other outlet.  No
moving parts in the separator.

>I think I should find a book on thermodynamic instead. :(

Sounds good to me.  :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 23:06:20 GMT
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On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 14:17:09 PDT, "David Dennard"
<daviddennard hotmail.com> wrote:

>Just takes one simple understanding.  Gravity causes evaporation.  

Huh?

>Heat vaporizes, gravity evaporates.

Could you describe what you mean by vaporize and evaporate?  (They're
both the same thing to the dictionary writers.)  Could you define how
heat "vaporizes?"  Could you define heat, please?  

It would help if you used meanings for words that people who speak the
English language have learned.  Giving your own meanings to words
already in use will cause great misunderstanding and essentially
non-communication.


>Once you "get it" the rest is child's play.  Heat is static, gravity is 
>dynamic.  That's the cosmological constant.

Umm, okay.  What attribute does "heat" have that makes it "static?"
(since you defined heat in response to my question, above, would you
please define what you mean by "static?")

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Dean T. Miller replies to my saying:

Just takes one simple understanding.  Gravity causes evaporation.

Huh?

I say:

Heat vaporizes, gravity evaporates.

Dean asks:

Could you describe what you mean by vaporize and evaporate?  (They're
both the same thing to the dictionary writers.)  Could you define how
heat "vaporizes?"  Could you define heat, please?

It would help if you used meanings for words that people who speak the
English language have learned.  Giving your own meanings to words
already in use will cause great misunderstanding and essentially
non-communication.

I say:

I would help if words were acurately defined.

"Scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" as 
stated by Dr. Vera Rubin, our countries top astrophysicist, in the ABC NEWS 
Transcript, "Mapping the Cosmos" I have posted at my web site.

http://www.whirlpower.cc

Where you can also get a full discription of how gravity "causes" 
evaporation.  All part of the cosmological constant every flat space team 
says we are returning to from Princeton to Berkeley.

Folks, it's a brand new ball game!

Batter UP!

David
"hitting grand slam after grand slam"



________________________________________________________________________
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To: Antigravity egroups.com
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Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Fwd: [SO] *Trick of the Light?
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:56:58 PDT
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>This effect, called anomalous dispersion, had never been produced in a 
>transparent medium. The novelty of the experiment was not in the
manipulation of the pulse -- physicists have been doing this for years and 
long ago observed that a certain band of frequencies within a group of waves 
can arrive at its destination before the rest, even at a rate greater than 
the speed of light.

HA!

Slice it, dice it anyway you want, if a wave goes faster than lightspeed it 
shows everthing we were told was fact was unproven  theory all based on 
curved space theory, all theory never proven because Einstein said the 
gravitational lens measurment had to be 1.75 and that has never been met.

Scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" just 
like Dr. Vera Rubin states in the ACB NEWS Transcript posted at my website.

Get used to, it was all bunk!!!

Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on curved space.  But just 
like the days of Galileo the high and mighty will never conceed.  Too bad, 
future history will record them as fools.  Big shot know it alls, happens 
every time.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!  Told you so.  Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

And I said it years ago before science announced any of this stuff.

Folks it's a brand new ball game.

Batter Up!!

David Dennard
"hitting grand slam after grand slam"
http://www.whirlpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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:)

From: Carl Landsness <carl s...>
To: daviddennard h...
Subject: I salute and thank you
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:51:28 -0700

Dear David,

I wish to salute and thank you for your work and your website
sharing, which I recently discovered and absorbed thoroughly.  I
found 
them very inspiring and valuable to my own work (currently in 
microfluidics).  They also helped confirm many ideas which came to me 
in meditation the last several years... which were outside my formal 
training (Electrical Engineering) and outside most formal training in 
science period.

I'm currently going through a major life metamorphasis, redefining
who I am and what I will do... triggered by a major disillusionment 
with the high tech corporate world I gave my life to for 20 years.  
After leaving that world for several years,  I now am returning...
but 
with totally new beliefs, perspectives, and objectives... many of 
which appear very similar or compatible with yours.  When
appropriate, 
I would very much like to talk with you or even meet you. In the 
meantime, I applaud you and wish you the best in your quest.

Sincerely,

Carl Landsness
Glendora, CA




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 18:26:00 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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Dean writes:
>That's why I used the example of the vortex heat separator (I forgot
>the inventor's name).  You feed compressed air into the inlet and get
>cold air out of one outlet and hot air out of the other outlet.  No
>moving parts in the separator.
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

Hi Dean,

The vortex heat separator that you are referring to is called the
Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube, and it is dead easy to build, as well as being
really cheap. I don't know much about the history of the device, other than
it has been around for a long time, and that it works.  Why it is not used
in cars, I don't know, as it would be perfect for airconditioning without
Freon or even heating.  It would drop the price of a new car about a grand,
I would guesstimate, never wear out, need maintenance, or cause any
pollution.  It was one of the devices demonstrated at the Berlin Free Energy
conference recently.  There is a schematic here at this URL, unfortunately
the text is all in Italian.

http://utenti.tripod.it/altraenergia/hil1.html

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject: Solar Lamp
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Gnorts,

A report on an effort to help the third world can be found here.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/07/19/solar.lamp.reut/index.html

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 18:39:48 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:25 PM
Subject: Solar Lamp

Neat. I wonder if it is a high frequency fluorescent?

I have one of those that plug into the wall socket and draws ~ 3 watts, and
puts out more light than a 20 watt incandescent. It pooped out to
a weak orange glow after about 3 years. About $5.00 for one without
a light sensor that shuts it off when not needed and costs ~ $10.00.
Cheaper to buy one that runs all the time.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick


> Gnorts,
> 
> A report on an effort to help the third world can be found here.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/07/19/solar.lamp.reut/index.html
> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 19:02:20 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>"Dean T. Miller" wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> But you're missing one important thing.
>>
>> I was ignoring friction in the water tank example.
>>
>> Easy to do with a "thought experiment" but impossible to do in the
>> real world.
>>
>
>
>I am ignoring friction losses in this case logically, because they are not
>proportional to the energy transferred between states in this example.

***{Some of the things you said early on seemed to imply otherwise. (See my
reply to Dean.) In any event, if you attempt to assume away friction in the
mechanically oriented examples, all basis for comparing them to the heat
oriented examples disappears. (See below.) --MJ}***

>
>> Moving heat around between masses has an equivalent friction loss.
>> The vortex heat separator works well -- but need power to overcome the
>> friction losses involved in creating the vortex.
>>
>> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
>
>You may choose frictionless fluids (superfluids) to get rid of friction
>losses.
>
>Friction losses does not explain why heat experiment is irreversible.

***{Friction losses produce heat--which means: they cause
molecules/atoms/ions to bounce around faster. Thus friction losses are heat
losses. Heat losses--to wit: the heat that is generated when heat is forced
uphill--do, in fact, explain why the heat experiment is irreversible. That
is the key point: work must be done when heat is forced uphill, just as
work must be done when masses are forced uphill. But no work is needed to
persuade heat, or masses, to move downhill, because they already contain
all of the internal energy they need to support such motion. --MJ}***

>
>I noticed that the difference between "heat" and "water" experiment is not
>just on the irreversible part. Water experiment require equal skill to
>change state to other state. But the heat experiment does not require any
>skill to mix the hot and cold water. If you add some skill, for example a
>thermocouple, it is possible extract some energy while mixing the cold
>with the hot. Where it come or where it is stole this extra energy? Is it
>related to the energy to reproduce the hot and cold water?

***{If you want to make a meaningful comparison between thermodynamic and
mechanical examples, as you are evidently trying to do, then you *cannot*
assume that friction doesn't occur, because friction is the mechanical
analog to heat. It is friction/heat losses that render each of these
examples irreversible: water moves downhill without external assistance,
and so does heat; whereas both water and heat require that external work be
done, if they are to move uphill. --MJ}***

>
>I think I should find a book on thermodynamic instead. :(
>
>hamdi ucar

***{Or simply keep stirring the pot here, as you are doing, and see what
floats to the top. :-)

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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 19:20:45 PDT
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{Or simply keep stirring the pot here, as you are doing, and see what 
>floats to the top. :-)

:)

Things do not simply float to the top.  Gravity gives the energy of motion 
to all things.  The cosmological constant as described by Einstein before 
dismissing it when he also dismissed common sense, saying, "common sense is 
just the prejudices learned in our youth."

Obviously Einstein was hypnotized and brainwashed of all common sense when 
he moved up and became a big shot.

Gravity pulls the more dense beneath the less dense thus pushing the less 
dense away.  Gravity makes bubbles rise, the energy found in cold fusion 
tests.  Gravity makes water vapor rise to its density threshold, 
evaporation.  Even the fireball on a rocket is a bubble.

David

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:07:53 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:36:20 -0700, "Frederick Sparber"
<fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>Neat. I wonder if it is a high frequency fluorescent?
>
>I have one of those that plug into the wall socket and draws ~ 3 watts, and
>puts out more light than a 20 watt incandescent. It pooped out to
>a weak orange glow after about 3 years. About $5.00 for one without
>a light sensor that shuts it off when not needed and costs ~ $10.00.
>Cheaper to buy one that runs all the time.  :-)

I have some night-lights that have a green phosphor that uses 30 mW
(.03 W).  I also have some small emergency lights that have a slightly
larger and brighter green phosphor and a charger for 2 AA nicads (the
nicads run a standard 3 volt flashlight bulb).  They draw about 300 mW
each.

The CNN article appears to show a standard fluorescent bulb
(Lights-of-America and GE make them) that's probably run from a small
charger/inverter inside the base.  

Black and Decker makes (made?) a "camp" light that uses two of their
VersaPak (nicad or NiMh) batteries to run the fluorescent tubes for 5
hours.  It could also plug into a 11 to 18 volt source to provide
light and charge the batteries.  I bought 2 at Wal-Mart for $30 each.

IMO, this "non-profit charity" is in it to make money for the
employees.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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>Neat. I wonder if it is a high frequency fluorescent?
>
>I have one of those that plug into the wall socket and draws ~ 3 watts, and
>puts out more light than a 20 watt incandescent. It pooped out to
>a weak orange glow after about 3 years. About $5.00 for one without
>a light sensor that shuts it off when not needed and costs ~ $10.00.
>Cheaper to buy one that runs all the time.  :-)
>
>Regards,     Frederick

A light sensor?  ARGGG!!!  Why didn't they just put a $.10 switch on it?  Oh
well.  Maybe the one with the light sensor is for fooling robbers into
thinking you are home.  They are both pretty cheap in comparison though, to
the one in the article.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  4 21:42:50 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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Dean writes:

>IMO, this "non-profit charity" is in it to make money for the
>employees.
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

Could be.  If all those darned employees would just work for free, we'd have
it made! 8^)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 02:02:24 2000
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Message-ID: <398BD7B7.F18EFF13 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 12:00:39 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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Hi Mitchell,

Let the things make clear:
 
- In my original posting I described a water tank experiment. A pure mechanical experiment.  I did not gave a method for moving water between 10 and 20 meters, I only said the states are reversible.  So if you claim that the method that I later gave, the 

pulley and rope friction loss are unavoidable and seriously affect the experiment, (Although this is fine for me) it is possible to give an other method radically that it is impossible to measure any friction losses.

- I did not gave two kinds of arbitrary experiments, one mechanics and on heat but two experiments basing the same logic, one mechanics and an other on heat.
So the link between two experiments is the logic I gave, not the heat losses occurring experimenting the water tanks up-down.



Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> 
> ***{Some of the things you said early on seemed to imply otherwise. (See my
> reply to Dean.) In any event, if you attempt to assume away friction in the
> mechanically oriented examples, all basis for comparing them to the heat
> oriented examples disappears. (See below.) --MJ}***
> 

Yes, friction losses on mechanical setup is out of question. Just think a textbook problem or example about on a mechanical principle, for example how the pulley works. Obviously friction losses are out of question there :)

Again, this is important: I did not gave an experiment setup and said lets evaluate this experiment on all aspect of physics, mechanical properties, thermodynamic properties, gravitational, electromagnetic properties, etc. If I had said so your arguments 

below may had made sense. But not.

> 
> ***{Friction losses produce heat--which means: they cause
> molecules/atoms/ions to bounce around faster. Thus friction losses are heat
> losses. Heat losses--to wit: the heat that is generated when heat is forced
> uphill--do, in fact, explain why the heat experiment is irreversible. That
> is the key point: work must be done when heat is forced uphill, just as
> work must be done when masses are forced uphill. But no work is needed to
> persuade heat, or masses, to move downhill, because they already contain
> all of the internal energy they need to support such motion. --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >I noticed that the difference between "heat" and "water" experiment is not
> >just on the irreversible part. Water experiment require equal skill to
> >change state to other state. But the heat experiment does not require any
> >skill to mix the hot and cold water. If you add some skill, for example a
> >thermocouple, it is possible extract some energy while mixing the cold
> >with the hot. Where it come or where it is stole this extra energy? Is it
> >related to the energy to reproduce the hot and cold water?
> 
> ***{If you want to make a meaningful comparison between thermodynamic and
> mechanical examples, as you are evidently trying to do, then you *cannot*
> assume that friction doesn't occur, because friction is the mechanical
> analog to heat. It is friction/heat losses that render each of these
> examples irreversible: water moves downhill without external assistance,
> and so does heat; whereas both water and heat require that external work be
> done, if they are to move uphill. --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >I think I should find a book on thermodynamic instead. :(
> >
> >hamdi ucar
> 
> ***{Or simply keep stirring the pot here, as you are doing, and see what
> floats to the top. :-)

Actually I had the whirlpool in my mind, think the whirlpool is a mechanical transformator (counterpart of the electric transformator, mass and velocity on whirlpool-mechanical transformator become current and voltage on electrical  counterpart). 

And ... the Happy End...Unexpectedly. The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube! This appears (to my mind) the thermodynamic counterpart of the mechanical vortex, the whirlpool!

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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hamdi ucar writes:

>Actually I had the whirlpool in my mind, think the whirlpool is a 
>mechanical transformator (counterpart of the electric transformator, mass 
>and velocity on whirlpool-mechanical transformator become current and 
>voltage on electrical  counterpart).
>
>And ... the Happy End...Unexpectedly. The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube! This 
>appears (to my mind) the thermodynamic counterpart of the mechanical 
>vortex, the whirlpool!


But even happier, a vortex is not a whirlpool.  A vortex is about gravity's 
action on the vertical axis, the corkscrew spiral, Chaos Theroy, a sink 
drain vortex, or Schauberger, or toilet flusher.

Whirlpools are about gravity's action on the horizontal axis, the frame 
dragging wobble that makes the dual radial arm pattern.  This is much 
different than the corkscrew spiral pattern on the vertical axis.  So simple 
children write and say they understand it exactly.

Whirlpools are unknown to science, as backed up by the Whirlpower 
Declaration and independently at:

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

Your folks must be wearing ear plugs if you still think a vortex is a 
whirlpool.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 05:29:53 2000
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All this snickering about the solar lamp is missing a couple of points, which
should be obvious to this technically elite and perceptive group.

First, the primary power source is a solar photovoltaic array, which doesn't
come for chump change. Second, power management in nicad batteries is not as
simple as it looks. Nicad batteries have a memory characteristic such that if
you don't handle them right, their charge capacity gradually diminishes over a
number of cycles. The inclusion of an IC to manage the batteries so that the
lamp is fully charged during the day and then can provide reliably a constant
number of hours of light each night over a period of years takes some design
smarts. Nickel hydride or lithium ion batteries don't have the memory
characteristics, but their initial cost is significantly higher.

I have a friend who designed a nicad battery powered monorail transporter to
carry IC wafers between processing stations in a IC fab plant. He put in a lot
of work on the power management system for the batteries so that they gave the
maximum performance.

Mike Carrell



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Hi,
   I thought everyone might be interested in subscribing to the
following newsletter.
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============================================================
Power Online  Newsletter  -- http://www.poweronline.com
Volume 3   Issue 74
Wednesday, August 02, 2000
============================================================

Welcome to this issue of Power Online's (http://www.poweronline.com) electronic
newsletter. Power Online strives to keep power generation professionals tuned
to the trends shaping their niche markets and the overall utility industry.
Standard & Poor’s recently selected RKS Research & Consulting to conduct a
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Nationwide interviewing is set for the third quarter, with a full report
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a deregulated environment and reliability and transmission policy. For more
details, check out Latest Headlines, and Power Online plans to keep you posted
as this report develops. Until next time, take care. ACM


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******** FEATURED ARTICLES selected by April C. Murelio ****

1) Power Vision by David Wojick: King Coal’s silver bullet?
2) DTE Energy Technologies to develop 400 kW turbine generator
3) Polar Works gas turbine inlet air cooling prototype proves successful
4) News and Analysis

------------------------------------------------------------

1) Power Vision by David Wojick: King Coal’s silver bullet?
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DTE Energy Technologies, an unregulated subsidiary of DTE Energy, signed
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http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl20000801/201634


3) Polar Works gas turbine inlet air cooling prototype proves successful
Polar Works (Saratoga Springs, NY) recently announced the successful integrated
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method that simultaneously dehumidifies and cools the air, said Thomas C.
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http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl20000801/201635


4) News and Analysis
Visit the Power Online News and Analysis page for the latest
industry headlines and feature articles.

http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl19991209/40575


******** EDITOR'S CHOICE PRODUCTS ********

1) Renewable Energy Software
2) Fuel Cell Power Conversion System with Utility Grid Interface
3) Turbine/Compressor Cleaning Chemicals & Hardware
4) Product Showcase

------------------------------------------------------------

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Technology (RET) projects quickly and effectively. With this software, users
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2) Fuel Cell Power Conversion System with Utility Grid Interface
This new PowerGate Power Conversion System with GridLink Utility Grid Interface
is for fuel cell distributed power generation systems. The interface allows
fuel cells to operate just like "plug-in" appliances and will enable them to
operate in a grid-independent or grid-parallel mode. The interface will be...

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http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl20000801/201641


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engines. Remove foulants online or offline to increase power output, reduce
Heat Rate and...

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http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl20000801/201642


4) Product Showcase
Power Online and its editor, April C. Murelio, select some of the best new
products in the industry and present them to you in our Product Showcase.

http://www.poweronline.com/read/nl19991209/40576


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 06:59:41 2000
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From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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Hi,
   I figured out something interesting in relation to what you are saying. In your example though, since the same amount of work is theoretically required in either case, what could be gotten out of it?
MJ

hamdi ucar wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at ~20 meters with the same work.
>
> Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to fill the other tank.
>
> It appears that analogy on thermodynamics does not work, if it worked it was possible to build and lossless heat transformer.
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 07:28:54 2000
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>
> On 1 Aug 2000, at 13:41,
> Milan Manchich wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> > How you test resist of water or electrolite?

I set up a cell with a certain "projected" resistance and then test the
resistance. It is usually pretty close. Water with electrolyte isn't that
resistive if it is in a small space between the electrode plates. The only way to
really "shape" the water conductor is to put it between something. In that way you
can control both it's thickness and contact surface cross sectional area just like
with the solid metal conductor. It more or less "mirrors" the size of the solid
conductor with thickness still being adjustable.

>
> > Let me say few practical words about serial cells.
> > If you build serial cells electrolyzer very precious as mechanical people do
> > then your input voltage will divide almost mathematical exept first one and
> > last one.

The "voltage drop", which I do figure in from the normal formulas in the next part
of my paper. Voltage drop is entirely dependent upon the total number of
cells/resistors in your circuit i.e.; 1 cell, all voltage drops across that one,
50 cells, 1/50th of the total voltage drops across each one.

>
> > But range of voltage per cell is in relation with drawing current and
> > "power" from power supply. Your minimum per cell must be  from 1,9 to 2.3 V
> > per cell.

Ok, not a problem. You first have to decide how much H2 you want to produce and
then set up the cell(s) to produce that amount.

> Less is not productive..more is with losses.
> > If you have 1.00 V per cell it meand that you haven't electrolystic process.

That was just a first example, I have more in the next part which do account for
that fact. The actual electrical potential is something like 1.4 volts but I use 2
volts in my examples just to be safe.

>
> >
> > If your power supply can't give needed current then voltage will drop
> > rapidly.

Of course. That is why pre-planning to establish the exact resistance needed over
the exact number of cells needed is important.

>
> > For example if you have power supply 100 V-- 1A. And if you connect 10
> > serial cell
> > which draw 1 A then your voltage on the terminals will drop to 20 - 25V or
> > cca 2 V per cell.
> > Trust me it always happen.

Of course it does Milan. For ten cells 1a is not even enough for ONE cell. You can
hold 1a over 10 cells with the right input voltage but what would be the point? I
address all of this in the next part which I hope to post sometime today.
MJ

>
> > Milan
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Johnston wrote:
> >
> > > energy21 - http://www.Fortunecity.com/greenfield/bp/16
> > >
> > > Multi-Cell Theory, Update (Resistance)
> > > By M. Johnston
> > > 7/28/00
> > >
> > >  Several months ago I wrote a little paper on the advantages of using
> > > multiple electrolysis cells, connected to form a Series Circuit, over a
> > > single cell or even cells connected in parallel. In looking back on this
> > > paper I still feel that I was correct in the general idea that I tried
> > > to present even though I now realize that I was wrong in some respects
> > > and, in addition, did not adequately explain the concept that I was
> > > trying to relay. This paper is intended to both clarify and improve upon
> > > those original ideas in several ways and to introduce a new design for
> > > series cells.
> > >  Speaking of series cells I would like to briefly review some facts
> > > about series circuits. In a series circuit the same current flows
> > > through every part. It makes no difference how many parts or devices you
> > > have. As long as the identical current passes through each, it is a
> > > series circuit. The current that flows through a series circuit depends
> > > upon the source voltage and the total circuit resistance. When there is
> > > only one load (cell) in a circuit IT provides the total resistance
> > > (other than the resistance of the wires and the internal resistance of
> > > the power source). However, when there are a series of loads the total
> > > circuit resistance is the sum of the resistances of the individual loads
> > > (cells). So if a circuit has five loads of one ohm resistance each it
> > > has a total resistance of 5 x 1 = 5 ohms.
> > >  To find the current that a series circuit will draw you determine the
> > > total circuit resistance by adding the resistances of each load (cell).
> > > Then you use Ohm's law (I=E/R) to find the current. In the above example
> > > if we were using a 12 volt power source then our current through the
> > > circuit would be I= 12volts/5ohms and so I = 2.4 amps.
> > >  Once the current is known it is easy to figure the total power used. P
> > > = I2R = (2.4 x 2.4) x 5 = 28.8 watts of power used in our example. An
> > > easier way is to multiply the source voltage by the current; 12 x 2.4 =
> > > 28.8.
> > >  Next the voltage drop. I think that this is a much misunderstood
> > > concept as I see it applied to electrolysis cells. For example, in my
> > > earlier paper I mentioned a 2 volt drop per cell. I got that number
> > > quoted to me by someone and as my experimental data was close to that
> > > number I accepted it as such. Other people believe that a certain
> > > minimum voltage is required for electrolysis to take place and confuse
> > > that number with the voltage drop. In actuality Faraday's law says that
> > > the amount of H2 released in an electrolysis cell depends entirely upon
> > > the amount of current which passes. If you can maintain a high enough
> > > current at 1 volt it should still have the same effect as the same
> > > current at 300 volts. The only difference being that at 300 volts you
> > > could get that current to be maintained over substantially more cells.
> > >  Back to the voltage drop. In a series circuit the total voltage dropped
> > > across all of the loads is equal to the source voltage. Simple isn't it?
> > > If you run a current from a 12 volt power source through one cell your
> > > voltage drop will be 12 volts. If you run current from a 12 volt power
> > > source through 300 cells your voltage drop will be 12 volts. In the
> > > single cell all of the voltage will be dropped across that one cell. In
> > > 300 cells (of equal resistance) the voltage drop per cell is determined
> > > by multiplying current by resistance (E = IR). In this case our voltage
> > > drop per cell would depend upon finding our current and resistance. Say
> > > we have a total resistance of 2 ohms across all of our 300 cells. We can
> > > then find the current that this setup would draw by using the formula I
> > > = E/R = 12volts/2ohms = 6amps. So, knowing this we can say that E = IR =
> > > 6amps x 2ohms = 12 volts dropped across the 300 cells. So then, if we
> > > want to know the voltage drop in each cell we would have to find the
> > > resistance of each cell by dividing our total resistance by the total
> > > number of cells (since all have equal resistances) R individual =
> > > 2ohms/300 = .0066666 ohms per cell. Then we can find our voltage drop
> > > for each cell by using the formula E = IR = 6amps x .0066666 ohms =
> > > .0399996 volts per cell. If we then multiply our voltage drop per cell
> > > by the total number of cells (300) we find that our total voltage
> > > dropped across all of the cells is 11.99988 volts.
> > >  This is just an example. It is not intended to be necessarily workable
> > > because there indeed might be a minimum voltage per cell in order for
> > > electrolysis to take place. I have not disproven that to date in an
> > > experimental manner and so for all examples that follow I will allow for
> > > more voltage being "left" to drop over the last cell.
> > >  The first factor that I believe needs to be specifically addressed in
> > > relation to series cells is resistance. I have seen resistance losses in
> > > electrolysis cells commonly quoted as being from 40 - 60 % as though
> > > this were some kind of "given", unchangeable. From the most basic
> > > understanding of Ohm's law it soon beams apparent that this is not the
> > > case. No circuit has a certain "built in" resistance unless someone
> > > builds it in. To assume a "standard" resistance for all possible designs
> > > of electrolysis cells is like saying that no matter how you design an
> > > electrical circuit, or which specific components you include, or
> > > exclude, it will always have exactly the same resistance in it!
> > > Obviously this is not true or we wouldn't have computers would we? Or
> > > for a simpler analogy, what if you put a 1200cc motorcycle motor into a
> > > truck tractor? Would you complain then because that setup wouldn't work
> > > properly? From that evidence you could come to believe that an internal
> > > combustion motor could never be able to power a big truck. Someday
> > > though someone would figure out that perhaps a larger or different kind
> > > of motor would work better.
> > >  In electrolysis cells resistance plays just as big a role as in any
> > > other electrical circuit. You CAN adjust this factor within a very wide
> > > set of parameters, I hope to illustrate this in this paper and to show
> > > how this ability to design a specific resistance into a series of cells
> > > can and will, I believe, allow the construction of a series cell which
> > > is efficient enough to separate a sufficient quantity of water to
> > > provide H2(g) to run a car for example. I have seen many people (myself
> > > included) discussing many and varied designs for electrolysis cells but
> > > I have yet to see anyone show WHY they believe that their design would
> > > work. People just seem to accept certain things like "larger electrodes
> > > liberate more H2" without really going into the "why" of it. That's too
> > > bad because that is where the answer lies.
> > >  First, a look at Ohm's law. The following simple formulas establish the
> > > basis for most of the examples I will use in this paper. I am sure that
> > > they are already familiar to most readers but I include them anyway in
> > > an attempt to be thorough. I = E/R, R = E/I, E = IR (I =Current, E =
> > > Volts and R = Resistance) and finally P = I2R for power losses.
> > >  Also important is the formula for finding how much H2 will be released
> > > from water in a given amount of time by the application of a specific
> > > electrical current. This formula is;
> > > m = .0000105 x I x t  where I = Current, M = mass of H2 produced (in
> > > grams) and t = time. The number (.0000105) is obtained by dividing the
> > > atomic mass of the substance to be separated (H2) by it's valence
> > > (Faraday's Second Law).
> > >  First I want to show how much current must pass through an electrolysis
> > > cell in order to liberate the H2 contained in one liter of water in one
> > > hour. That should be a sufficient amount to run many types of small
> > > internal combustion motors and for this example I would like to
> > > concentrate primarily on such motors. So if we take the mass of H2 to be
> > > produced; 2.016 gm/mole x 55 mole/liter = 110.88 gmH2/liter. Then taking
> > > that number and dividing it by .0000105 gives us 10,560,000 amps which
> > > must pass through our cell in one hour or, dividing that number by 60
> > > gives us 176,000 amps per minute or, dividing that by 60 gives us
> > > 2933.33 amps per second. Pretty big current isn't it? Not too many small
> > > generators can deliver that can they? Remember though, that is the
> > > amount that would have to pass through ONE cell (ignoring any catalysts
> > > for now). What if we were to divide that current up among a group of
> > > cells? A much smaller amount of current would have to pass through them
> > > all as each one would produce an amount of H2 equal to the quantity of
> > > current passing through it. As long as the SAME current flowed through
> > > all the cells their cumulative output of H2 would be all of their
> > > individual outputs added together and would equal the amount produced by
> > > a much larger current passing through ONE cell.
> > >  If we divide the above total current (2933.33amps per cell) by 50 cells
> > > we find that we must maintain a current of 58.66 amps in each of those
> > > cells to separate the desired quantity of H2 from water in the desired
> > > amount of time. That seems to be a much easier amount of current to
> > > produce and work with doesn't it? So there we have the first of the
> > > necessary factors for our Ohm's law equations. We have established the
> > > amount of H2 gas that we need to produce to run a specific device and
> > > have then gone on to find the current that we need to maintain in a
> > > certain number of electrolysis cells to give us the desired quantity of
> > > H2 gas in the necessary amount of time.
> > >  Next we must determine either our desired voltage or resistance. I will
> > > use voltage as I want to get more deeply into the resistance factor
> > > later. Let's pretend we want to use an automotive alternator to produce
> > > our H2 gas, We can assume then that we have a 12 volt power source. Now
> > > that we have this information we can find out what our maximum total
> > > resistance must be across all the cells and in each cell for this device
> > > to work as intended. To do this we use Ohm's formula of R = E/I which is
> > > expressed here as R= 12volts/58.66amps, and so R = .205 ohms total
> > > resistance across all of our cells or .205amps/50(cells) = .00409 ohms
> > > resistance per cell. It seems simple and straightforward enough doesn't
> > > it?
> > >  What about resistance though? How is it determined and how can it be
> > > changed? Many books have tables of the resistances of various metals. I
> > > won't bother to list them here. I would like to focus on copper. It is a
> > > good conductor with low resistance. Silver is a better conductor with
> > > lower resistance but it is significantly more expensive and so less
> > > easily available for most researchers. Copper is also actually fairly
> > > inert and the right combination of electrode metal and type or
> > > concentration of electrolyte needs to be found so that the electrodes do
> > > not dissolve but that is for later.
> > >  The resistance of any material depends upon the number of free
> > > electrons that the material has. One ampere is 6,280,000,000,000,000,000
> > > free electrons passing any given point in a conductor (such as a wire)
> > > in one second. So a good conductor must have many free electrons
> > > available to allow several amperes of current to flow. Since current is
> > > a measurement of electrons passing a point in a conductor more free
> > > electrons can be made available by using a thicker piece of metal so
> > > that more current can flow. In the case of a battery or an electrolysis
> > > cell this is already known. The larger the surface area of your
> > > electrodes the more free electrons are available to cause the separation
> > > of water. Also, don't forget that water (containing an electrolyte) is
> > > our other conductor and by increasing the surface area of our solid
> > > electrodes we are increasing the surface area of our water conductor
> > > (and thereby lower it's resistance)as well!
> > >  As an example; a piece of copper 2cm high and 1cm wide will have twice
> > > as many free electrons available at the point at which current is being
> > > measured as a piece only 1cm wide by 1cm high. The piece that is twice
> > > as high will conduct twice as much current. Since the amount of H2 that
> > > is released by the electrolytic separation of water depends totally on
> > > the amount of current that passes through the water then it seems
> > > obviously desirable to have control of the resistance of the cell as
> > > this is the factor which determines how much current flows and thereby
> > > how much H2 is released. So when you increase the width or height of
> > > your electrodes you are increasing their cross-sectional area. The
> > > greater the cross-sectional area of your electrodes, the lower their
> > > resistance. The lower their resistance, the more current flows. The more
> > > current that flows, the more H2 that is released.
> > >  On the other side of the coin, if you increase the length of your
> > > electrodes (in the direction of current flow) you increase your
> > > resistance and lower the current flow. By doubling the length of a
> > > conductor you double it's resistance (or conversely by cutting said
> > > conductors length in half you also decrease it's resistance by one
> > > half). This causes more of your available current to be converted into
> > > heat energy and increases your power losses. Therefore, by choosing the
> > > proper metal for a conductor, and making it with a certain cross-section
> > > and length, you can produce any kind of resistance effect you want.
> > >  I thought that, at this point it would be good to figure out the
> > > resistance of a piece of copper of a certain size so that researchers
> > > might have a basis on which to figure the resistance of their cells. As
> > > I said I feel that copper is the best metal to use for experimental
> > > purposes. I decided to find the resistance of a piece of copper of 1
> > > sq/in by 1/4 inch thickness. This way you can much more easily figure
> > > the resistance of any size electrode you might use.
> > >  If you look at a table of American Standard Wire Gauges you will see
> > > that it gives you the dimensions and typical resistances of commercial
> > > copper wire. From this table I selected B&S Gauge #2 wire. It has a
> > > cross-sectional area of .258 inch (a little over a quarter inch) and it
> > > is round rather than square so I am fudging just a bit. That aside I
> > > believe that despite this my results will be close to being accurate so
> > > here goes; the resistance of one thousand feet of this wire at 70
> > > degrees Fahrenheit is .159 ohms. So then the resistance of 500 feet
> > > would be half of that or .159/2 = .0795 ohms. That is a piece of copper
> > > 1/4 inch square in cross-sectional area by 500 feet long. Remember we
> > > only want it to be 1/4 inch long so we have to keep going. I will keep
> > > dividing it in half until I reach my desired length;
> > > 250 feet of wire = .0795ohms/2 = .03975ohms per 250 feet
> > > 125 feet of wire = .03975ohms/2 = .019875ohms per 125 feet
> > > 62.5 feet of wire = .019875ohms/2 = .0099375ohms per 62.5 feet
> > > 31.25 feet of wire = .0099375ohms/2 = .0049687ohms per 31.25 feet
> > > 15.625 feet of wire = .0049687ohms/2 = .0024843ohms per 15.625 feet
> > > 7.8125 feet of wire = .0024843ohms/2 = .0012421ohms per 7.8125 feet
> > > 3.59125 feet of wire = .0012421ohms/2 = .000621ohms per 3.59125 feet
> > > 1.795625 feet of wire = .000621ohms/2 = .0003105ohms per 1.795625 feet
> > > .8978125 feet of wire = .0003105ohms/2 = .0001552ohms per .8978125 feet
> > > .4489062 feet of wire = .0001552ohms/2 = .0000776ohms per .4489062 feet
> > > .2244531 feet of wire = .0000776ohms/2 = .0000388ohms per .2244531 feet
> > > .1122265 feet of wire = .0000388ohms/2 = .0000194ohms per .1122265 feet
> > > .0561132 feet of wire = .0000194ohms/2 = .0000097ohms per .0561132 feet
> > > .0280566 feet of wire = .0000097ohms/2 = .0000048ohms per .0280566 feet
> > >  And there is our quarter inch in length (roughly). Now we have the
> > > resistance for a quarter inch cube of copper. Remember that if we
> > > increase the surface area of our conductor we lower the resistance
> > > again. By doubling the surface area we cut the resistance in half. We
> > > wanted the number for a square inch of copper so we have to adjust the
> > > numbers accordingly.
> > > 1/4" = .0000048 ohms so 1/2" = .0000048/2 = .0000024ohms
> > > 1/2" = .0000024ohms so 1" = .0000024/2 = .0000012ohms
> > >  There is the multiplier for figuring the resistance of your copper
> > > electrodes. Find the number of square inches and multiply by the number
> > > of ohms per square inch. Remember that they have to be 1/4 inch thick
> > > for this to be accurate.
> > >  Just for fun let's imagine an electrolysis cell in which we have two
> > > electrodes, each measuring 3" x 3". That would be 9 square inches each
> > > or 18 square inches total. So we would take the one square inch that we
> > > have the number for and double it to 2 square inches. That cuts the
> > > resistance in half, so 2sq/in = .0000012ohms/2 = .0000006 ohms
> > > 4sq/in = .0000006ohms/2 = .0000003ohms
> > > 8sq/in = .0000003ohms/2 = .0000001ohms
> > > 16sq/in = .0000001 ohms/2 = .00000005ohms
> > >  At 16 square inches of copper 1/4 inch thick we have reached nearly
> > > zero resistance. The problem is that the conductor can only carry so
> > > much current and the power source can only supply so much current. For
> > > these reasons, even though near zero resistance would theoretically draw
> > > an huge amount of current and consequently supply a proportionally huge
> > > amount of H2, it isn't technically possible at this time. Therefore if
> > > we use a series of cells which maintain a current of realistic
> > > proportions across all of them we can engineer the setup to produce
> > > almost any amount of H2 from water while staying within the paramaters
> > > of real world possibility. Just as an added note, the #2 gauge wire I
> > > started with has a rated current carrying capacity of 91-136amps with
> > > rubber insulation or between 96-241amps with other insulation. These
> > > amounts of current are fairly realistic in terms of what can be produced
> > > by commonly available power sources.
> > >  I haven't factored in the resistance of the water and I don't have any
> > > actual experimental data on the resistivity of water specifically but
> > > for this paper I will ass ume that, if you place your electrodes as
> > > close together as the thickness of one of them the resulting small
> > > thickness of your water conductor will no more than double the total
> > > cell resistance. In batteries a sheet of porous wood or rubber is
> > > inserted between the electrode plates to prevent arcing between the
> > > electrodes.
> > > Automotive batteries make use of these principles to achieve a total
> > > internal resistance of around 1.8ohms for the whole battery or 1.8/6 =
> > > .03ohms per cell. Remember that lead is 12.76 times as resistive as
> > > copper so if a copper plate were being used the resistance per cell
> > > would be around .03/12.76 = .0235109ohms or 1.8/12.76 = .1410658ohms for
> > > the whole battery.
> > >  How much current would a battery like the one above (with copper
> > > electrodes) be able to draw from a 12volt power source? I = E/R =
> > > 12/.1410658 = 85.066685 amps. Could it be made to draw more? Yes.
> > > Increase the cross-sectional area of the electrodes and thereby reduce
> > > it's resistance. How much H2 could be produced in a battery such as the
> > > above (per cell)?  Since m = .0000105 x a x t then m= .0000105 x
> > > 85.066685 = .0008932001925 gm/sec x 6 cells = .005359201155 gm/sec for
> > > the whole device or .3215520693 gm/min or 19.293124158 gm/hr.
> > >  End of part 1.
> > >                    MJ

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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>Hi Mitchell,
>
>Let the things make clear:
>
>- In my original posting I described a water tank experiment. A pure
>mechanical experiment.  I did not gave a method for moving water between
>10 and 20 meters, I only said the states are reversible.  So if you claim
>that the method that I later gave, the pulley and rope friction loss are
>unavoidable and seriously affect the experiment, (Although this is fine
>for me) it is possible to give an other method radically that it is
>impossible to measure any friction losses.
>
>- I did not gave two kinds of arbitrary experiments, one mechanics and on
>heat but two experiments basing the same logic, one mechanics and an other
>on heat.
>So the link between two experiments is the logic I gave, not the heat
>losses occurring experimenting the water tanks up-down.

***{Hi Hamdi. Maybe my problem is that I don't understand where you are
going with this analogy. Why not try to sum up, in a few words, why you
claim reversibility in the mechanical instances and non-reversibility in
the thermodynamic ones? Also, please explain why you think these
distinctions are significant. In other words, what is the exact difference
you have in mind, and what is the technological importance of that
difference?

>From my own perspective, I view mechanics as the heart of physics, and
consider thermodynamics to be merely a specialty that falls *within*
mechanics. As a result, I tend to be very suspicious of arguments that
attempt to draw hard-and-fast lines between them.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>> ***{Some of the things you said early on seemed to imply otherwise. (See my
>> reply to Dean.) In any event, if you attempt to assume away friction in the
>> mechanically oriented examples, all basis for comparing them to the heat
>> oriented examples disappears. (See below.) --MJ}***
>>
>
>Yes, friction losses on mechanical setup is out of question. Just think a
>textbook problem or example about on a mechanical principle, for example
>how the pulley works. Obviously friction losses are out of question there
>:)

***{Agreed, but a textbook pulley problem is quite a different thing from a
theoretical comparison between fluid flows and heat flows, which is what
you seem to be attempting. If you attempt such a comparison, it seems to me
that you need to retain enough commonality between the examples to render
the discussion meaningful. To put the matter in general terms, suppose that
real-world example A exhibits some property x, and that real-world example
B exhibits a very similar property y. Now if you compare an idealized
version of A in which x is assumed away, to the real-world, non-idealized
version of B, you can say that the two cases are dissimilar. But that isn't
kosher, Hamdi: you need to compare examples of the same kind. Either both
examples need to be drawn from the real-world, or else both need to be
idealized in the same way. Comparing an idealized mechanical example in
which friction has been assumed away to a real-world thermodynamic example
where nothing has been assumed away has the effect of creating fictive
differences by a process of stipulation, and leads to nothing useful,
insofar as I can see. --MJ}***

>
>Again, this is important: I did not gave an experiment setup and said lets
>evaluate this experiment on all aspect of physics, mechanical properties,
>thermodynamic properties, gravitational, electromagnetic properties, etc.
>If I had said so your arguments below may had made sense. But not.

***{Let's get concrete. Consider the following:

(1) Mechanical Example. You take two buckets, fill them with identical
weights of birdshot, and hang them 2 meters from the ground on opposite
sides of a low-friction pulley. If you then take a pinch of lead shot from
the bucket on the right and move it to the bucket on the left, the bucket
on the left will move down to ground level, and the bucket on the right
will move up to a height of 4 meters. And if you then take two pinches of
shot from the left bucket and place them in the bucket on the right, then
the right bucket will descend to the ground, pulling the left bucket to the
4 meter level. Thus we now have a reversible process: by merely moving a
few tiny pellets of birdshot back and fourth, the entire effect of the
previous movement can be undone.

(2) Mechanical Example. You take two buckets, fill them half full with
water at 20 degrees C, connect them with a siphon hose that runs  over a
low-friction pulley and extends to the bottoms of the buckets, and hang
them 2 meters from the ground on opposite sides of the pulley. If you then
move a very small but  sufficient mass x of water from the bucket on the
right to the bucket on the left, the bucket on the left will move down to
ground level, the bucket on the right will move up to a height of 4 meters,
and the siphon will transfer all of the water from the upper bucket to the
lower bucket. If you then take 2x units of water from the left bucket and
place them in the bucket on the right, then the right bucket will *not*
descend to the ground, because the 2x units of water in the bucket on the
right will weigh far less than the full bucket of water on the left .
Result: this mechanical process is *not* reversible: by merely moving a
trivial mass back and fourth, the entire effect of the previous movement
*cannot* be easily undone.

(3) Thermodynamic Example. You set up a 1000 liter rectangular tank with
vertically oriented, removable partition in the middle. You then pour 500
liters of water at 40 degrees into the left half of the tank, and 500
liters of water at 20 degrees into the right half of the tank. If you then
remove the partition, the colder, hence more dense, 20 degree fluid will
flow into the bottom half of the tank and the warmer, hence less dense, 40
degree water will rise to the top, without much mixing. Over time, however,
the available heat  will distribute itself uniformly throughout the fluid,
and the effect will be *exactly* as irreversible as in case (2), above.

Analyzing the three examples, we see that in case (1) the effect was
reversible because no mass flow took place. (In order for mass to move from
one side to the other, it had to be deliberately transported there.) In
case (2), on the other hand, actual fluid began to flow as soon as a tiny
bit of mass was moved from one side to the other, and when that flow had
gone to completion, it was no longer reversible by merely moving an equally
tiny mass the other way. In case (3), we see that heat flow behaves in the
same manner as case (2)--which means: a heat flow can be set in motion by a
trivial act such as removing a partition, but cannot be reversed by an
equally trivial act.

Bottom line: the proper mechanical analogy to heat flow would be case (2),
not case (1).

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 12:50:59 2000
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This device works great...however is way down there on the
efficiency scale....remember seeing the figures at one time, but
don not remember the exact number.....there have been many
attempts to raise the efficiency, but as far as I know, no one has
been able to.....it is used in situations where you need heating
and/or cooling with no possibility of a flame or spark....and the
efficiency does not matter.....steve

Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Dean writes:
> >That's why I used the example of the vortex heat separator (I forgot
> >the inventor's name).  You feed compressed air into the inlet and get
> >cold air out of one outlet and hot air out of the other outlet.  No
> >moving parts in the separator.
> >
> >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
>
> Hi Dean,
>
> The vortex heat separator that you are referring to is called the
> Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube, and it is dead easy to build, as well as being
> really cheap. I don't know much about the history of the device, other than
> it has been around for a long time, and that it works.  Why it is not used
> in cars, I don't know, as it would be perfect for airconditioning without
> Freon or even heating.  It would drop the price of a new car about a grand,
> I would guesstimate, never wear out, need maintenance, or cause any
> pollution.  It was one of the devices demonstrated at the Berlin Free Energy
> conference recently.  There is a schematic here at this URL, unfortunately
> the text is all in Italian.
>
> http://utenti.tripod.it/altraenergia/hil1.html
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 13:31:42 2000
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	Dear vo.,

	What is the specifc diffference [s] between a vortex and a
whirlpool?  What, specifically Defines a whirl pool?



On Sat, 5 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> hamdi ucar writes:
> 
> >Actually I had the whirlpool in my mind, think the whirlpool is a 
> >mechanical transformator (counterpart of the electric transformator, mass 
> >and velocity on whirlpool-mechanical transformator become current and 
> >voltage on electrical  counterpart).
> >
> >And ... the Happy End...Unexpectedly. The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube! This 
> >appears (to my mind) the thermodynamic counterpart of the mechanical 
> >vortex, the whirlpool!
> 
> 
> But even happier, a vortex is not a whirlpool.  A vortex is about gravity's 
> action on the vertical axis, the corkscrew spiral, Chaos Theroy, a sink 
> drain vortex, or Schauberger, or toilet flusher.
> 
> Whirlpools are about gravity's action on the horizontal axis, the frame 
> dragging wobble that makes the dual radial arm pattern.  This is much 
> different than the corkscrew spiral pattern on the vertical axis.  So simple 
> children write and say they understand it exactly.
> 
> Whirlpools are unknown to science, as backed up by the Whirlpower 
> Declaration and independently at:
> 
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
> 
> Your folks must be wearing ear plugs if you still think a vortex is a 
> whirlpool.
> 
> David Dennard
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 13:41:58 2000
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Mike Carrell writes:
>All this snickering about the solar lamp is missing a couple of points, which
>should be obvious to this technically elite and perceptive group.

This is all true, and it doesn't include the possible improvement of using a
very high frequency ballast to get the input power requirement down.  I
think the primary objective for this non-profit group is to set up assembly
plants in third world countries to assemble off-the-shelf parts and do as
little actual manufacuring as possible.  This creates easy-to-learn jobs.
It is also their objective, I think, to leapfrog the old technologies that
we used (and still use) in favor of more environmentally friendly ones.  It
is a difficult enough of a task to do that, and still pay all the workers a
living wage.

The microchips will come from major manufacturers, and the solar panels will
likely come from the oil companies who now own most of the solar panel
production facilities.  The rest of the parts will also come from
established sources also, leaving the mold injection of the case, the design
and the assembly up to OEM.  The price is still 20% of the average annual
wage of the people they would like to help, for what is essentially a
flashlight that will still need replacement parts in 5 years.  Their
solution for that problem is to put them into debt with a bank, and have
them pay an interest bearing loan for their flashlight.

So you can see that this will plan will profit the established, traditional
sources of money and parts, and the Kenyans will work off the debt, if they
ever get paid enough to do so.  The only people that don't really profit are
the ones who came up with the idea, but again, if they are drawing a salary,
then the distinction between charity work and a regular job is a bit
blurred, but not entirely if they are drawing a salary that is less than
normal for that type of work.  I can't hold anything against them if that is
the case, but I'm not sure that it is optimal.  If they have a CEO who is
drawing $300,000 a year, as was the case of the United Way organization,
then I say hang'em high.

I think Fred Sparber had the best idea for a quick and cheap,
environmentally more friendly solution to their lighting needs.  We just
need to come up with a free energy source for them.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 16:27:06 2000
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Knuke wrote:

<snip>

> I think Fred Sparber had the best idea for a quick and cheap,
> environmentally more friendly solution to their lighting needs.  We just
> need to come up with a free energy source for them.

The last I heard, sunlight is free. So is oil in the ground. So is wind. The
'cost' is in the exchange with the people who build the devices which capture
and transform the essentially free energy. Would Knuke not have them paid? There
is no energy process visible, including CF, BLP, etc. that does not involve
capital and labor cost to fabricate and support some kind of system. The wind-up
radios, such a neat idea, apparently cost too much and now appear in yuppie
gadget catalogs. The fact is that good energy storage springs require steel that
is carefully processed and the radios require low power electronics that don't
come from the local smithy.

I wish there were a good solution to this too. There is a enormous gap between
the ubiquitous but inadequate and the elegant sophistication that is simple to
use but beyond the possibility of local production by a developing society.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 17:06:35 2000
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Check out http://www.dailyreckoning.com/imra/. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 17:36:43 2000
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Mike Carrell writes:
>The last I heard, sunlight is free. So is oil in the ground. So is wind. The
>'cost' is in the exchange with the people who build the devices which capture
>and transform the essentially free energy. Would Knuke not have them paid? 

I think that I made it quite clear in my last post Mike, that I don't hold
anything against these people if they are simply trying to make a living,
and provide a useful product at the lowest possible cost.  Especially if
they have been willing to work for lower than normal wages.  Re-read the
post without your obvious bias, and you will see that is exactly what I
wrote. If any one of them is excessively profiting from this venture, then
they should quit hiding behind a tax exempt status, and pay their taxes like
any other for-profit venture.  For this particular venture to be a better
deal for end users, it would be nice if the suppliers chipped in with parts
at cost.  This would allow them a tax write off as well, keep their
employees busy (and paid), and help lower the end cost to the people who
cannot afford to pay for the more environmentally friendly product.  If the
parts suppliers are anything like the AIDS drug manufacturing community
however, this will never happen.  Doing things for cost is simply against
their corporate religion.  If you want a LOT of resources on this, just let
me know.

As a venture, I think that this particular group may actually be more
helpful to the Kenyans if they sold their lamp through REI, and some of the
other yuppie camping gear outlets.  They could get more money for it
(yuppies will pay anything), take the profit, and buy the type of
flourescent lamps that Fred has suggested, and either give them to the
Kenyans, or sell them at less than cost.  I think they would sell more
units, help the environment, and help more Kenyans that way, but I'm not in
charge of their operation.  If they do like they did with their radio, then
that is probably what will happen with their lamp, as well.  After all, it
looks just like a really good camping lantern.  Perhaps the design was no
mistake.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 17:47:52 2000
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Multi-Cell Theory, Update (Resistance)
Part 2
By Mike Johnston
8/5/00



 In part one I looked at resistance and how to modify it to suit the
requirements of a specific setup. In this part I plan to show that there
are two different ways to approach this with two very different results.
I will also then post a design for what I consider to be the perfect
experimental multi-cell.

 The two ways to do this are 1) find the necessary total resistance to
draw a specific current at a specific voltage and then add identical
cells on. In doing it this way you will always produce the same amount
of H2 in your multiple cells as you would with one cell because you are
multiplying/increasing the total circuit resistance with each cell that
you  add on and thereby lessening the amperage across the circuit. The
benefit from doing it this way is that you can produce the desired
amount of H2 with less total amperage input. The total amount of H2
produced remains the same though no matter how many identical cells of
this type that you use.

 As an example let's say that we have a power source which supplies 120
volts and 130 amps. To find the amount of H2 that such a current would
yield in one cell you use the standard formula m=.0000105 x I x t =
.0000105 x 130 x 1(sec)= .001365 gm/sec H2. This would work out to
.001365gm/sec x 60=.0189gm/min x 60= 4.914 gm/hr.

 The resistance of this cell (in order to let 130 amps pass) would have
to be R=E/I=120/130=.9230769ohms.

 The voltage drop across this cell would be E=IR=130 x
.9230769ohms=119.99999volts

 If you added on another cell, identical to the first, then your
resistance would be .9230769ohms x 2= 1.8461538 ohms.

 So then your amperage across the multi-cell circuit would be 1/2 of
your amperage in one cell because your total resistance has doubled.
I=E/R=120/1.8461538=65.000001amps across the system. Each cell would
then produce m=.0000105 x 65.000001 amps x 1(sec)=.0006825gm/sec of H2
per cell or .001365gm/sec total, which is identical to the amount
produced by running ALL of the available 130 amps through one cell. As I
said the advantage is that you are using less of the available power to
produce this same amount of H2 from water. The total amount of H2
produced would be .001365gm/sec x 60=.0819gm/min or .0819gm/min x 60=
4.914 gm/hr. Probably not enough to run an internal combustion motor of
a size sufficient to turn your generator.

 If it is done in the other way the results are different. I will walk
through the steps required to do it this way and then give an example of
the results over 1, 50 and 65 cells. The power source for this example
will be the same as the first; 120volts 130amps.
STEP 1:  Find the maximum resistance that can be allowed for one cell so
that the desired amperage can flow through your cell at the voltage
supplied. To do this use R=E/I which in this case looks like this
R=120v/130a=.9230769ohms.
NOTE: Remember that resistance is the one variable that you have to work
with which will control the amount of H2 that is ultimately produced AND
that by making simple adjustments in such factors as the cross sectional
area and thickness of your conductor(s), including both the electrodes
and the water between them, You CAN achieve ANY RESISTANCE EFFECT THAT
YOU WANT!
STEP 2:  Figure out the amount of H2 that your one cell (in the above
example) would produce by using the formula m=.0000105 x I x t, which in
this case would be m=.0000105 x 130 x 1(sec) so m=.00365gm/sec,
.0819gm/min, 4.914gm/hr.
NOTE: As far as that formula goes, there is all of the H2 that you can
produce at that amount of current. However the law says that you can
produce that amount of H2 in EVERY cell through which it passes. This is
great because in a series cell the SAME current passes through EVERY
CELL IN THE SERIES. The problem then is simply to engineer a system in
which the available current passes through all of your cells.
STEP 3: Figure out your voltage drop per cell by using the formula E=IR.
In this case E=130 x .9230769=119.99999 volts dropped across our one
cell. Good. The law says that the entire voltage should be dropped in a
series circuit whether you have one cell or 50. In the case of multiple
cells the voltage drops by an equal amount in each cell. In the case of
electrolysis we have decided that we need to maintain at least 1.8 volts
in each cell so we cannot drop more than that per cell.
STEP 4: Figure the watts of power consumed in your circuit by using the
formula for "heating losses" W=I2R. Which in this case is I=(130 x 130)
x .9230769=15,599.999watts. Our available power is found by the formula
w=E X I which is w= 120 x 130= 15,600 watts or 15kw. We use up our
entire available power here, everything balances.

 This is the basic process to use in figuring multiple cells out as
well. Remember that to achieve the results that I am going to show in
the following example I took the maximum resistance for ONE cell as
found above and divided it by the total number of cells I wanted to
create. In this way you can find the necessary resistance per individual
per cell.

One Cell
Power supply = 120 volts 130 amps
Current passing through system 130 amps
119.99999 volts dropped
15,600 total watts available
15,599.999 total watts used
.9230769 ohms maximum resistance
.001365 gm/sec H2 total produced

Fifty Cells
Power supply = 120 volts 130 amps
Current passing through system 130 amps
2.399995 volts dropped per cell
15,600 total watts available
15,599.999 total watts used
311.99935 watts used per cell
.9230769 ohms total resistance
.0184615 ohms maximum resistance per cell
.001365gm/sec H2 produced per cell
.06825gm/sec H2 produced total

Sixty Five Cells
Power supply = 120 volts 130 amps
Current passing through system 130 amps
1.846143 volts dropped per cell
15,600 total watts available
15,599.999 total watts used
233.99859 watts used per cell
.9230769 ohms total resistance
.0142011 ohms maximum resistance per cell
.001365gm/sec H2 produced per cell
.088725gm/sec H2 produced total

 Beyond this number of cells the voltage drop is too great to maintain
the minimum required voltage in each cell. As you can see the output of
sixty five cells, designed in this way is 65 times as much as what is
produced by one cell! Remember too that if you wanted to further
increase the amount of H2 produced at this current all you would have to
do is increase the potential difference of the power source (voltage).
If you did that you could add on as many more cells as the increase
would allow and produce substantially MORE H2 at this SAME CURRENT.
END
MJ



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 17:51:00 2000
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Hi,

Yes, the analogy with thermodynamics of this mechanics experiment may give interesting results I think.

Unlike to elevate a mass, heating something appears an inefficient process.
Why? Because if you heat something with the heat of other thing, temperature difference between objects is required. As the temperature difference is a source of energy itself, this energy is wasted. For example, if 10 degrees of a water is needed to elev

ated to 20 degrees, you may heat it by an object which its temperature is sustained at constantly at 20 degrees or more. As initially, water temperature rose from 10º to 11º, heater held at 12º is enough, 20º would be a waste. 

The mechanical analogy of this process is filling a tank say 1 meters high, from an reservoir with a water level at least 1 meter high. So flowing water will free fall from 1 meter into the tank, this mechanical energy is wasted. Instead, it was possible 

to supply water from lower level reservoir initially to save the energy. This filling method is irreversible, one could  not transfer the water in tank to the reservoir back without using extra energy. The alternative way,  using a bucket, rope and a well

 greased pulley to transfer water between tanks proved efficient and by this method the process is reversible.

Back to thermodynamic, I can say that the natural heat transfer (by gradient) is a loosely process and why these are irreversible. In one of previous postings I pointed this issue. 

"... If this is not possible, the reason would be the reverse process is too easy. :) Merely mixing 500 liters of 20 degrees  with 500 liters of 0 degrees. No pulley is required."

Too easy, because it is a loosely process in this context. If an energy is extracted and saved doing heat transfers, this energy can be used later to restore the initial state. 

Say A0 and B0 are initial state of objects are having temperature Ta0 and Tb0. Let perform a specific heat transfer method (F) used between A and B. Let w0 be a work needed to method F() works. After the process, assuming an extra work w1 is earned

   F(A0, B0, w0)  ---> A1, B1, w1

A1 and B1 show the state of objects having temperature Ta1 and Tb1.

For the process be reversible, it is needed a process G (may same or different from F) fulfills

   G(A1, B1, w1)  ---> A0, B0, w0


So why the natural heat transfer (i.e mixing hot and cold water) is irreversible is proved (if above is true and can be realized) as there is no usable work w1 gained required for method G to reversing the process.

Still interesting analogy within water tarnsfers and heat transfers, isnt it? :)


Michael Johnston wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>    I figured out something interesting in relation to what you are saying. In your example though, since the same amount of work is theoretically required in either case, what could be gotten out of it?
> MJ
> 
> hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Suppose that you have a limited work to fill a tank of water at a determined height from ground say 1000 liters at ~10 meters. But you have an option to fill an other smaller tank at higher level say 500 liters at ~20 meters with the same work.
> >
> > Probably this work reversible, so one can change his decision after to fill the other tank.
> >
> > It appears that analogy on thermodynamics does not work, if it worked it was possible to build and lossless heat transformer.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > hamdi ucar

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 17:53:31 2000
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					 <v04011701b5afe931d467 [207.8.127.48]>
					 <399041c9.67933523 mail.midiowa.net> <398AEEF9.F8D45AE9@verisoft.com.tr>
					 <398f1565.122104777 mail.midiowa.net> <v04011702b5b0def8b6e9@[207.8.127.79]> <398BD7B7.F18EFF13@verisoft.com.tr>
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A correction on my recent posting: (not important trough)

I wrote:
 
"And ... the Happy End...Unexpectedly. The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube! This appears (to my mind) the thermodynamic counterpart of the mechanical vortex, the whirlpool!"

I should be written as:

"And ... the Happy End...Unexpectedly. The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube! This appears (to my mind) the thermodynamic counterpart of the mechanical transformer, the whirlpool!"


Word "vortex is replaced by "transformer".  So I do not qualify whirlpool as vortex but a transformer as on the previous paragraph on my original posting.

Note: "transformator" was used place of "transformer"

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 18:09:10 2000
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear vo.,
> 
>         What is the specifc diffference [s] between a vortex and a
> whirlpool?  What, specifically Defines a whirl pool?
> 

As I learned, whirlpool is whirlpool, the vortex occurring in sea or in a river when counter flows meets, it turns round and round, creating negative pressure, sucking everything to the deep below. frightening! :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 19:24:48 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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Mike C wrote:

>The wind-up
>radios, such a neat idea, apparently cost too much and now appear in yuppie
>gadget catalogs.

That's incorrect. The radios are selling like hotcakes in Africa and South
America, and contributing enormously to safety and quality of life. People
in isolated villages can now hear weather reports, storm warnings, and
educational programming. The cost of batteries or solar cells made other
kinds of portable radios too expensive for many people in the third world,
plus the wind up radio design is exceptionally rugged.

The radioes and wind-up lights sold in yuppie catalogs are made in
Johannesburg, South Africa and sold at far higher prices than in Africa.
The profits go directly to African workers and development projects, so I
am happy to see the yuppies pay through the nose for a few dollars worth of
plastic hardware.

See: http://www.ibms.net/radio/index.html


>The fact is that good energy storage springs require steel that
>is carefully processed and the radios require low power electronics that
don't
>come from the local smithy.

The springs are rated for 10,000 winds, which equates 6,500 hours of
playing time, which is much cheaper than any battery. Springs have been
used successfully in music playback machines (record players) since the
victrolas in the 1880s. Edison, for some reason, spent a ton of money
trying to develop record players that ran on battery power and one that ran
on the power of flowing water from the kitchen sink. The noise of the water
gushing, gurgling and splashing drowned out the music.

(Water pressure from municipal water supplies was widely used as a source
of energy to raise elevators and run small machines in the late 19th
century, before electricity became widespread. The idea was proposed by
Charles Babbage. Some water powered equipment lasted until the 1970s.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 19:39:14 2000
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Water Uphill, Update
By Mike johnston
8/6/00



 Remember the post I did a while back? The one where I suggested pumping
water to the top of a tower and then letting the water flow downhill
over water wheels or through a turbine to generate power? People said it
was impossible, that pissed me off. First I suggested sucking the water
to the top of the tower rather than pumping it up from below. people
said that wouldn't work because you can only suck water up to a height
of 30 feet. Ok fine, I said, then solved the problem by electrolyzing
the water at the bottom of the tower and letting the resulting gasses
rise through tubes to the top, where they were burned together to create
energy and the resulting steam then re-condensed into water and allowed
to flow downhill through a series of water wheels or a turbine to
generate power.While that was a valid solution I wasn't quite satisfied.
I wanted something more simple.
 So I came up with another way to get liquid water up to the top of a
tower. I believe that this may work and use little enough energy so that
more energy could be generated by the water going back down hill than
what will be required to get it up to the top. In the accompanying
diagram you will see that what I did was to create chambers in the line
that transports the water up to the top of the tower. These chambers
have an inlet pipe at their top and an outlet pipe at their bottom. The
pump that draws the water is at the outlet of the topmost chamber. The
water supply is drawn from a catch basin below. This basin catches the
water from the system as it comes back down and so recycles it.
 The pump, once started, draws water from the bottom of the top
chamber.. The chamber is airtight so as the water level in the chamber
falls due to the action of the pump the air pressure within the chamber
also decreases. The air is not happy with this.It tries to draw in more
air to stabilize it's pressure at normal air pressure. The only source
that it has to draw from is the inlet tube at the top of it's chamber.
So the air is drawn out of the tube into the chamber. In so doing the
water from the chamber below follows the air up and out of it's own
chamber and into the tube. As soon as all the air is out of the tube the
water flows into the top tank. The chambers are only 20 feet apart so
there is no problem sucking the water up the tube and into the next
chamber.
 As the water flows from the second chamber, up the tube to the top
chamber the same process repeats in the second chamber. The air pressure
within it falls and it sucks up water out of the chamber below it.
Finally, the last chamber sucks water up out of the catch basin.
 The only effort being put out by the pump is whatever is required to
pump the water out of the chamber, from a level higher than itself and
onto the first water wheel, which is lower than itself.
 I built one using aquarium tubing for the pipe and plastic spaghetti
storage jars for the chambers. I used a small aquarium filter water pump
to pull the water out of the first chamber. I estimate (through tests)
that the pump could push water up 4 feet of tubing. I set up the device
as described above and have pulled water up 20 feet through 2 chambers
successfully using this pump. I am limited by not having anything higher
than that handy to stand on.
END
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 19:47:19 2000
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--------------970F46C869BCE58F972BBFD8--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 20:43:27 2000
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Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 23:42:29 -0400
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A lot of the micro-hydro people are working on just that....
producing lighting electricity for 3rd world countries that
local people can build and maintain...if anyone wants to
get on micro-hydro list....email and will send link....steve

Mike C wrote:

> Knuke wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I think Fred Sparber had the best idea for a quick and cheap,
> > environmentally more friendly solution to their lighting needs.  We just
> > need to come up with a free energy source for them.
>
> The last I heard, sunlight is free. So is oil in the ground. So is wind. The
> 'cost' is in the exchange with the people who build the devices which capture
> and transform the essentially free energy. Would Knuke not have them paid? There
> is no energy process visible, including CF, BLP, etc. that does not involve
> capital and labor cost to fabricate and support some kind of system. The wind-up
> radios, such a neat idea, apparently cost too much and now appear in yuppie
> gadget catalogs. The fact is that good energy storage springs require steel that
> is carefully processed and the radios require low power electronics that don't
> come from the local smithy.
>
> I wish there were a good solution to this too. There is a enormous gap between
> the ubiquitous but inadequate and the elegant sophistication that is simple to
> use but beyond the possibility of local production by a developing society.
>
> Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 20:54:37 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 03:51:22 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 22:23:24 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>>The wind-up
>>radios, such a neat idea, apparently cost too much and now appear in yuppie
>>gadget catalogs.
>
>That's incorrect. The radios are selling like hotcakes in Africa and South
>America, and contributing enormously to safety and quality of life. 

Not according to the CNN/Reuters article.  It said:
"A clockwork radio which drew plaudits for its originality and Third
World potential in 1996 has found that its major market is the United
States. It has failed to make inroads in Africa due to its cost."

Now, I'm not saying that CNN is the last word in news, but the WWW
site you referenced is 3 years old (and the radios they sell for $130
+ shipping are selling for $80 at Radio Shack).

>People
>in isolated villages can now hear weather reports, storm warnings, and
>educational programming. The cost of batteries or solar cells made other
>kinds of portable radios too expensive for many people in the third world,
>plus the wind up radio design is exceptionally rugged.

I agree with that.  But it's an entire village that might have one or
two radios.  

>The radioes and wind-up lights sold in yuppie catalogs are made in
>Johannesburg, South Africa and sold at far higher prices than in Africa.

Do you know how much they cost in Africa?  I don't.

>The profits go directly to African workers and development projects, so I
>am happy to see the yuppies pay through the nose for a few dollars worth of
>plastic hardware.

I agree.  I'd like to see a whole lot more production from Africa, now
that China and India are supplying more of the goods we buy.
Eventually the average income level of China and India will rise
enough so Africa will be the only place where low cost goods can be
produced.  Then Africa's income level will rise.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 21:45:12 2000
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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 23:42:57 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Water Uphill, Update
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>Water Uphill, Update
>By Mike johnston
>8/6/00
>
>
>
> Remember the post I did a while back? The one where I suggested pumping
>water to the top of a tower and then letting the water flow downhill
>over water wheels or through a turbine to generate power? People said it
>was impossible, that pissed me off. First I suggested sucking the water
>to the top of the tower rather than pumping it up from below. people
>said that wouldn't work because you can only suck water up to a height
>of 30 feet. Ok fine, I said, then solved the problem by electrolyzing
>the water at the bottom of the tower and letting the resulting gasses
>rise through tubes to the top, where they were burned together to create
>energy and the resulting steam then re-condensed into water and allowed
>to flow downhill through a series of water wheels or a turbine to
>generate power.While that was a valid solution I wasn't quite satisfied.
>I wanted something more simple.
> So I came up with another way to get liquid water up to the top of a
>tower. I believe that this may work and use little enough energy so that
>more energy could be generated by the water going back down hill than
>what will be required to get it up to the top. In the accompanying
>diagram you will see that what I did was to create chambers in the line
>that transports the water up to the top of the tower. These chambers
>have an inlet pipe at their top and an outlet pipe at their bottom. The
>pump that draws the water is at the outlet of the topmost chamber. The
>water supply is drawn from a catch basin below. This basin catches the
>water from the system as it comes back down and so recycles it.
> The pump, once started, draws water from the bottom of the top
>chamber.. The chamber is airtight so as the water level in the chamber
>falls due to the action of the pump the air pressure within the chamber
>also decreases. The air is not happy with this.It tries to draw in more
>air to stabilize it's pressure at normal air pressure. The only source
>that it has to draw from is the inlet tube at the top of it's chamber.
>So the air is drawn out of the tube into the chamber. In so doing the
>water from the chamber below follows the air up and out of it's own
>chamber and into the tube. As soon as all the air is out of the tube the
>water flows into the top tank. The chambers are only 20 feet apart so
>there is no problem sucking the water up the tube and into the next
>chamber.
> As the water flows from the second chamber, up the tube to the top
>chamber the same process repeats in the second chamber. The air pressure
>within it falls and it sucks up water out of the chamber below it.
>Finally, the last chamber sucks water up out of the catch basin.
> The only effort being put out by the pump is whatever is required to
>pump the water out of the chamber, from a level higher than itself and
>onto the first water wheel, which is lower than itself.
> I built one using aquarium tubing for the pipe and plastic spaghetti
>storage jars for the chambers. I used a small aquarium filter water pump
>to pull the water out of the first chamber. I estimate (through tests)
>that the pump could push water up 4 feet of tubing. I set up the device
>as described above and have pulled water up 20 feet through 2 chambers
>successfully using this pump. I am limited by not having anything higher
>than that handy to stand on.

***{Yup: if you had gotten to a height of about 33 feet, your pump would
have stopped working.

The difficulty that limits schemes such as this is the fact that, at
constant temperature, the boiling point of a liquid is directly
proportional to the pressure. As the pressure rises, the boiling point also
rises. That's why, at sea level, water boils at 100 degrees C, while in
Denver, the boiling point is much less.

The pressure at which water boils, for each specific temperature, is known
as the vapor pressure at that temperature. As you suck up a column of water
beneath a pump, the pressure at the pump inlet is simply atmospheric
pressure minus the head pressure (the weight per square inch) of a column
of water that tall. If you are at sea level and the temperature is 20 deg.
C, atmospheric pressure is 760 mm of Hg, and water boils when the pressure
drops to 17.535 mm of Hg. Since 760 mm of Hg is about 14.7 psi, that means
at 20 deg C, water boils when the pressure falls to (17.535/760)(14.7) =
.339 psi. Since a cc of water weighs 1 gm, a cubic inch of water weighs
2.54^3 = 16.39 gms, which is (.01639)(2.2) = .0361 lbs.

The question, therefore, is this: how many 1 inch cubes of water, when
stacked one on top of another, will weigh 14.7 - .339 = 14.36 psi? The
answer: 14.36/.0361 = 397.8 cubes, which is a column of water that is 33.15
feet in height. Anything higher, and the pressure at the pump inlet falls
below the vapor pressure, and the water boils. Result: the pump from that
point forward pumps only water vapor.

This state of affairs utterly defeats your idea, because however you may
twist and turn you standpipe or vary its cross section, the pressure at the
pump inlet will always be equal to atmospheric pressure minus the head
pressure of a column of water the height of which equals the lift height.
Thus, like it or not, the greatest distance a suction pump can raise water
at 20 deg. C is about 33 feet.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>END
>MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 22:07:39 2000
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***{I posted the following message to sci.physics.fusion earlier today, and
it occurs to me that it may be of interest here. Enjoy! --MJ}***

In article <0183b17e.19899b2e usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com>, ChuckSezdotcom
<chuckNOchSPAM chucksez.com.invalid> wrote:

> Walter, I'm all three! A CF buff of sorts, a lunatic and a
> satrist as well and mostly about myself. It makes this crazy
> life in modern times more enjoyable. Thanks for the kind
> comments about our site. Please contribute in any section if you
> like and that goes for others as well. I'll even post a piece
> anti-CF. But I have featured this tread and it has been bringing
> in a lot of traffic to my site according to my WebTrends
> tracking software. It would be interesting if there were some
> conclusive demonstration so I'm going to push for that even if I
> ruffle some feathers out there in CF land. I found out in the
> last few days from posts and feedback that anti-CFers make those
> in CF stay with the erroneous P&F theory and protocol, a
> guaranteed failure in my book. The whole thing starts with that
> name, "cold fusion." How can something "cold" generate usable
> energy. I beseech all those that support CF to at least meet me
> half and and call it "Talble-top fusion."

***{This is an interesting point, and has been made here, in various
guises, repeatedly. The Mizuno cell, for example, typically runs at about
160 volts of potential difference across the electrolytic cell, and, when
the cell is in the "non-wetting" phase, the cathode is surrounded by a
steam cloak, and virtually all of the resistance in the circuit is
concentrated there. Result: roughly 140 of the 160 volts is dropped across
the steam cloak itself. Since the cloak is a very diffuse plasma, a
significant percentage of the hydrogen ions (i.e., protons) that cross the
cloak do so without any intervening collisions--which means: they arrive at
the cathode with roughly 140 eV of energy. Let us, therefore, calculate the
temperature of an ideal monoatomic gas for which the average particle has
an internal energy of 140 eV and a mole weighs 1 gram.

To begin, note that the internal energy per mole (U) of such a gas is the
sum of the rotational and translational kinetic energy of the elements of
which it is comprised, and, since it is presumed to be monoatomic,
collisions will be perfectly elastic, and the rotational component can be
neglected. Thus we have two ways to calculate U, as follows:

(1) U is equal to the product of Avogadro's number (A, which is the number
of particles in a mole of the substance) and the average kinetic energy (K)
of a particle. Thus U = AK. Taking the average kinetic energy of
translation to be 140 eV, a mole of monoatomic hydrogen gas (1 gram) will
contain 6.02x10^23 atoms (A), and K will equal 140 eV. Thus U =
(6.02x10^23)(140) = 8.43x10^25 eV, which equates to 1.35x10^14 ergs.

(2) U is equal to the constant volume specific heat of the gas (Cv) times
its absolute temperature--i.e., U = CvT. Since Cv = (3/2)(R/M), where R is
the universal gas constant and M is the molecular weight of the gas, it
follows that we can multiply both sides by the absolute temperature, T,
obtaining: TCv = (3/2)(R/M)(T). Substituting U for TCv, we have U =
(3/2)(R/M)(T). Solving for T, we have: T = 2U/3(R/M). Since R = 8.317x10^7
ergs per Kelvin per mole, it follows that T = 2U/3(R/M) =
2(1.35x10^14)/[3(8.317x10^7)/1] = 1,080,903 Kelvins.

This means the effective temperature at the cathode surface in the Mizuno
"cold fusion" cell is in excess of 1 million Kelvins, and your point about
the inappropriateness of the descriptive term appears to be well taken.

Unfortunately, despite the apparent inappropriateness of the name, I
suspect it is far too late to change it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

Then we can address
> whether it is fusion or something else when the mystery is
> finally solved.
>
> Publisher, ChuckSez.com, an online journal
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  5 23:20:39 2000
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Subject: [jlnlabs] Fran De Aquino and the US Department of Energy
     Date:Sun, 06 Aug 2000 06:13:32 -0000
     From "Svein Utne" <utne msoft.no>
 Reply-To: jlnlabs egroups.com
       To:  jlnlabs egroups.com




Professor Fran De Aquino of the Physics Dept. of Maranhao State
University in Brazil, who earlier this year showed how to produce
anti-gravity (paper published on the CSETI Website), has just emailed
me two more astounding papers today.

The first shows how to build a 214 HP motor powered by nothing more
than the extraction of energy from a gravitational field.

This paper is at http://www.cseti.org/position/addition/FREE%
20ENERGY.pdf

The second paper provides the long sought after correlation and grand
unification of gravitation and electromagnetism.

This paper is at http://www.cseti.org/position/addition/GE.pdf

And this is not hokey stuff.

Prof. De Aquino writes:

"I am also sending in attachment a copy of my new paper gr-
qc/00077069, which
I have posted last week in LANL (Los Alamos National Laboratory) .
The US Department of Energy is very
interested in the calculations and experimental results presented in
my
trilogy above mentioned. Some days ago, I have received a proposal
for an
exploratory R&D program for DOE transportation and basic science that
would
include both theory development and experiment working in concert to
determine the benefit of this for transportation systems. ( about
$600K to
validate the work in Brazil and validate the work in Russia. )"

The cat is, one hopes, now mercifully and irrevocably out of the bag.


Regards

Tony Craddock
Web Administrator
CSETI
http://www.cseti.org




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Lots of options for powering small communities in developing countries.

You can squeeze 9 to 11 pounds of "Soydiesel" from a bushel of soybeans
and use the "cake" for highly nutritious human consumption. Same thing
with  distillers grains from fuel ethanol production.

Running a 5 kw spark ignition or diesel genset off Biofuels is a practical way to
harness stored up solar energy, much more practical and cost effective than
solar photovoltaic/battery storage if you have the biomass available.

 http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel.htm

Regards,    Frederick

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[DOC#16]
BASEURL=http://ibg.hitbox.com/ace?id=32358&hb=WQ5910272LWD39EN5

[DOC#25]
BASEURL=http://leader.linkexchange.com/2/X1316267/showiframe?

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel.htm
Modified=20B79129A7FFBF01F7

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 07:49:38 2000
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Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

. . . The radios are selling like hotcakes in Africa and South
>>America, and contributing enormously to safety and quality of life. 
>
>Not according to the CNN/Reuters article.  It said:
>"A clockwork radio which drew plaudits for its originality and Third
>World potential in 1996 has found that its major market is the United
>States. It has failed to make inroads in Africa due to its cost."

I have heard from relief organizations and other sources that the radios
are selling briskly. See:

New York Times, "Milnerton Journal, This $40 Crank-Up Radio Lets Rural
Africa Tune In," By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr. "Even in relatively rich South
Africa, half the homes have no electricity. Go far enough off the beaten
track and there are villages with no place to buy even a little AAA
battery. So in much of Africa, the portable radio is of little use."


>>The cost of batteries or solar cells made other
>>kinds of portable radios too expensive for many people in the third world,
>>plus the wind up radio design is exceptionally rugged.
>
>I agree with that.  But it's an entire village that might have one or
>two radios.

Right. That's the idea. One per village is way better than zero per
village. One is all you need for daily educational programming or
emergencies. Before WWII, it was common to have one or two radios per
village in Japan. It worked out well.


>>The radioes and wind-up lights sold in yuppie catalogs are made in
>>Johannesburg, South Africa and sold at far higher prices than in Africa.
>
>Do you know how much they cost in Africa?  I don't.

$40, as noted. That's cheap when you factor in the cost of batteries with
regular radios. Also, it can be difficult to store batteries in a hot
climate in a village, so when an emergency arises, a backup battery set may
be corroded, whereas the springs seldom break or rust. Spring loaded energy
storage has been around for a long time, starting with clocks around 1550
as I recall. By 1750, English clockmakers made beautiful blue steel springs
for watches. The value they added to the raw material made an ounce of iron
more valuable than an ounce of gold. By 1900 Victrola springs were very
reliable and could hold an incredible amount of energy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 11:25:01 2000
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The Space Environment: Magnetic and
                                Electric Fields

C. K. PURVIS



Figure 3 shows a schematic illustration of the Earth's magnetosphere.
Near the Earth, i.e., within a few thousand kilometers of
the surface, the magnetic field is approximately dipolar; further out
the field becomes greatly distorted. The overall shape of the
outer magnetosphere is determined by the interaction between the Earth's
magnetic field and the solar wind, and the various
plasma currents in the magnetosphere. In discussions of the Earth's
magnetic field, two types of magnetic poles are cited. These
are the "geomagnetic" and the "magnetic" or "dip" poles [1], [2]. The
term "geomagnetic pole" refers to the intersection between
the Earth's surface and the dipole axis of a "best fit" mathematical
model for the field. It is commonly found in discussions of
near-earth space. The magnetic or dip poles are the locations on the
Earth's surface at which the magnetic field is vertical (has a
dip angle of 90°).The magnetic poles are more usually marked on charts
or maps, and are in different places from the
geomagnetic poles [see Fig. 2 of ref. 8].

A simple representation of the near-Earth field consists of a dipole
whose axis is tilted at about 11.5° from the Earth's spin axis
and offset slightly from the geographic center. This results in a
location for the north geomagnetic pole in Greenland (geographic
coordinates: 78.5°N, 69°W). It may be noted that this is the south pole
of the Earth's internal dipole (the north pole of a
compass needle points toward it). Thus, the Earth's geomagnetic equator,
its geographic equator and the ecliptic define three
different planes.

For spacecraft applications, the magnetic field within several thousand
kilometers of the surface is represented as the gradient of
a scalar magnetic potential and expressed in terms of a spherical
harmonic expansion [3], [4]. By including contributions of the
external field (due to currents of charged particles flowing above the
Earth's surface), spherical harmonic expansion models can
be made useful at higher altitudes. Beyond two or three Earth radii,
however, separate external field models must be
constructed, and their contributions to the field added to those from
the internal field. The external field is much more variable
than the internal one, and a number of geomagnetic activity indices are
used to describe its variations [4].

Magnetic field effects on systems include torques due to spacecraft
magnetic moments and current flows, and development of
induced potentials due to motion of the spacecraft through the Earth's
field. Magnetic torques will be exerted on spacecraft
having residual net dipole moments, uncompensated current flows or
permeable materials on board, and on spinning spacecraft
having charged surfaces. It is customary to "degauss" spacecraft before
launch to minimize net moments, to design solar array
circuits to minimize net moments due to current flows, and to design
attitude control systems to compensate anticipated
magnetic torques.

In the spacecraft's reference frame, its motion through the magnetic
field is seen as an electric field and causes a potential to
develop across the spacecraft in the direction perpendicular to both B
and the spacecraft's velocity vector, , of magnitude
   = xB*L, where L is the spacecraft's dimension. This potential is
largest in LEO where both  and B are largest,
and zero at GEO. A typical value of motion induced electric field at LEO
(where B is about 0.5 Gauss and  is about 8
km/sec) is about 4.0 V/m. Very large systems can develop substantial
potentials which can drive currents through large
spacecraft structures. This is the operational principle of the
electrodynamics tether [5]; for other systems, .eg., the Space
Station, such structural currents are undesirable and to be minimized in
design.

There are electric fields present in the magnetosphere, associated with
the various magnetospheric current systems. The total
voltage drops across the magnetosphere are large, but the fields are
small, of order tens of millivolts per meter [3], and from the
perspective of space system environment interactions, the electric
fields tend to be dominated by system-induced potentials.
Such potentials include system voltages in the power system and
instruments (where exposed to the environment), charging of
surfaces by ambient plasma populations, and the motion induced
potentials discussed above. System produced potentials drive
plasma interactions in the ionosphere and may result in enhanced
chemical reactions (O+ erosion) and surface sputtering. A
charged spacecraft may experience Coulomb drag [6] in addition to
aerodynamic drag. Additionally, charged surfaces can
experience electrostatically enhanced rates of contamination.

References

[1] Tascione, T. F., (1988), Introduction to the Space Environment,
Orbit Book Company.

[2] Sugiura, M. and J. P. Heppner, (1965), The Earth's Magnetic Field,
Introduction to Space Science, W. N. Hess and G. D.
Mead, eds, Gordon and Breach, Science Publishers

[3] Smith, R. E. and G. S. West, compilers, (1983), Space and Planetary
Environm ent Criteria for Use in Space Vehicle
Development, 1982 Revision (Volume 1), NASA TM 82478.

[4] Jursa, A. S., sci. ed., (1985), Handbook of Geophysic and the Space
Environment, Air Force Geophysics Laboratory, Air
Force Systems Command USAF, NTIS Document ADA 167000.

[5] Applications of Tethers in Space, Volume 1, Workshop Proceedings,
Venice, Italy, NASA CP-2422, March, 1986
(several papers).

[6] Singer, S. F., (1964), Forces and Torques Due to Coulomb Interaction
with the Magnetosphere, Torques and Attitude
Sensing in Earth Satellites, S. F. , ed, Academic Press, p. 99.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 18:34:09 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
 
> My guess is it's an iron oxide. You can see that it has both seeped
> out and been blown around by the wind. Perhaps the water seeps slowly
> through iron bearing soils (from the meteor impact material?) and
> turns dark from bearing these dissolved and powdered oxides. It
> accumulatse where the seepage occurs and turns to blowing dust as the
> water sublimates and the material dries out.

It was the seeping and distribution by wind that I found interesting. 
The crater does seem to be very old.  Maybe from an iron meteorite
rusting for ages in the Martian water table.
 
> That, or it's bread mold.

A new source of antibiotics!

Terry

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:48:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller@midiowa.net>
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y

	Dear Folks,

	Where did this thread start?  What is the lamp, please?	

On Sat, 5 Aug 2000, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:36:20 -0700, "Frederick Sparber"
> <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >Neat. I wonder if it is a high frequency fluorescent?
> >
> >I have one of those that plug into the wall socket and draws ~ 3 watts, and
> >puts out more light than a 20 watt incandescent. It pooped out to
> >a weak orange glow after about 3 years. About $5.00 for one without
> >a light sensor that shuts it off when not needed and costs ~ $10.00.
> >Cheaper to buy one that runs all the time.  :-)
> 
> I have some night-lights that have a green phosphor that uses 30 mW
> (.03 W).  I also have some small emergency lights that have a slightly
> larger and brighter green phosphor and a charger for 2 AA nicads (the
> nicads run a standard 3 volt flashlight bulb).  They draw about 300 mW
> each.
> 
> The CNN article appears to show a standard fluorescent bulb
> (Lights-of-America and GE make them) that's probably run from a small
> charger/inverter inside the base.  
> 
> Black and Decker makes (made?) a "camp" light that uses two of their
> VersaPak (nicad or NiMh) batteries to run the fluorescent tubes for 5
> hours.  It could also plug into a 11 to 18 volt source to provide
> light and charge the batteries.  I bought 2 at Wal-Mart for $30 each.
> 
> IMO, this "non-profit charity" is in it to make money for the
> employees.
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 20:03:07 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Where did this " Re: Solar Lamp " start?
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John writes:
>y
>
>	Dear Folks,
>
>	Where did this thread start?  What is the lamp, please?

Here is the original post.	

Gnorts,

A report on an effort to help the third world can be found here.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/07/19/solar.lamp.reut/index.html

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 20:09:51 2000
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From: "Michael" <mrm teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <398D04B3.2B7F21DB csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: De Aquinno post
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:12:18 -0700
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Gentleman:  
 The website for the motor does not work, can we have a correction 
Michael
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Johnston" <enki csrlink.net>
To: "energy21" <energy21 listbot.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 11:24 PM
Subject: De Aquinno post


> Subject: [jlnlabs] Fran De Aquino and the US Department of Energy
>      Date:Sun, 06 Aug 2000 06:13:32 -0000
>      From "Svein Utne" <utne msoft.no>
>  Reply-To: jlnlabs egroups.com
>        To:  jlnlabs egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professor Fran De Aquino of the Physics Dept. of Maranhao State
> University in Brazil, who earlier this year showed how to produce
> anti-gravity (paper published on the CSETI Website), has just emailed
> me two more astounding papers today.
> 
> The first shows how to build a 214 HP motor powered by nothing more
> than the extraction of energy from a gravitational field.
> 
> This paper is at http://www.cseti.org/position/addition/FREE%
> 20ENERGY.pdf
> 
> The second paper provides the long sought after correlation and grand
> unification of gravitation and electromagnetism.
> 
> This paper is at http://www.cseti.org/position/addition/GE.pdf
> 
> And this is not hokey stuff.
> 
> Prof. De Aquino writes:
> 
> "I am also sending in attachment a copy of my new paper gr-
> qc/00077069, which
> I have posted last week in LANL (Los Alamos National Laboratory) .
> The US Department of Energy is very
> interested in the calculations and experimental results presented in
> my
> trilogy above mentioned. Some days ago, I have received a proposal
> for an
> exploratory R&D program for DOE transportation and basic science that
> would
> include both theory development and experiment working in concert to
> determine the benefit of this for transportation systems. ( about
> $600K to
> validate the work in Brazil and validate the work in Russia. )"
> 
> The cat is, one hopes, now mercifully and irrevocably out of the bag.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Craddock
> Web Administrator
> CSETI
> http://www.cseti.org
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 22:41:39 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <c8.8a0ae9b.26bfa459 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 01:34:17 EDT
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 8/6/00 7:49:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

> I have heard from relief organizations and other sources that the radios
>  are selling briskly. See:
>  
>  New York Times, "Milnerton Journal, This $40 Crank-Up Radio Lets Rural
>  Africa Tune In," By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr. "Even in relatively rich South
>  Africa, half the homes have no electricity. Go far enough off the beaten
>  track and there are villages with no place to buy even a little AAA
>  battery. So in much of Africa, the portable radio is of little use."
>  

Forty bucks? That's a rip off. 
My wife picked up a solar cell and hand cranked rechargeable 
radio (AM/FM) from JC Penny for $20. It comes with built in NiCad 
batteries and a battery compartment for 2 additional NiCads or Ni Hydride
rechargeable batteries and a wal wart AC recharger. 
Also equipped with a light and a red and yellow lamp sleeve that 
can be slipped over the lamp bulb. 
The light is independent of the radio and has a two position switch that
selects either steady or flashing light. In the flashing mode it also provides
a whoop whoop electronic siren if the radio is on.
With only the built in Ni Cads, 100 turns of the hand crank generator gave 
enough power to run the radio for about 40 minutes from a completely 
discharged
condition. I don't know if these built in NiCads are replaceable as I havn't 
taken 
it apart...yet. <g>  
Also starting from a discharged condition, setting the radio in
bright sunlight for 10 minutes with the radio off and then turning the radio 
on
powered the radio all day and for 1 hour after dark.

For 20 bucks this is an impressive piece of emergency equipment. I bought
several additional for the family back east. Made in China and it comes in
several "designer" colors.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge Experiment</A> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  6 23:01:16 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 01:59:04 EDT
Subject: Re: De Aquinno post
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In a message dated 8/6/00 8:10:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mrm teleport.com 
writes:

> Gentleman:  
>   The website for the motor does not work, can we have a correction 
>  Michael
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: "Michael Johnston" <enki csrlink.net>
>  To: "energy21" <energy21 listbot.com>
>  Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 11:24 PM
>  Subject: De Aquinno post
>  
It worked OK for me. Acrobat reader is required to view or download the file.

Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge Experiment</A> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 04:38:57 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:08:46 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

It may be useful to recall that De Aquino's new paper had a thread under
"Fw: The Gravitational Motor" at Jul,26,2000.

There are some arguments about the paper that it force us to think in skeptical point of view.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 07:54:47 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:51:15 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>Forty bucks? That's a rip off. 
>My wife picked up a solar cell and hand cranked rechargeable 
>radio (AM/FM) from JC Penny for $20. It comes with built in NiCad 
>batteries and a battery compartment for 2 additional NiCads or Ni Hydride
>rechargeable batteries and a wal wart AC recharger.

That is remarkably cheap. However, it may not be very robust. I do not know
about the JC Penny machine, but the ones manufactured in Africa supposedly
have heavy duty, long-lasting materials and springs capable of being
rewound thousands of times.

There is no need for a recharger in the African version, since it is
designed for locations without mains electricity. Solar cells are helpful
but expensive.

Perhaps the JC Penny model is as good, and the Chinese are better at low
cost mass production than the South Africans. I think I saw a Chinese made
black and white television for sale at the grocery store the other day for
$20. (Maybe it was $30?) It is hard to believe they pay the shipping costs
across the Pacific for that kind of money.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 07:55:43 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dennard
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:54:14 CDT
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Mr. Dennard
It would be easier to decipher your posts if you refrained from repeating 
the same rhetoric over and over again.

Repeating an argument which was poorly understood is acceptable, but 
rhetoric such as you are fond of tends to cause most scientists to 
immediately shut their eyes to what you are saying.

Likewise repeated gloating, while in some cases justified by the time you 
have struggled for recognition, is an ugly habit.

Merlyn

PS  Judging by past behavior, I am probably inviting a very unpleasant 
personal attack by attempting to point to you the problems in your chosen 
style of communicating, but so be it.



>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: Antigravity egroups.com
>CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Fwd: [SO] *Trick of the Light?
>Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:56:58 PDT
>
>>This effect, called anomalous dispersion, had never been produced in a
>>transparent medium. The novelty of the experiment was not in the
>manipulation of the pulse -- physicists have been doing this for years and
>long ago observed that a certain band of frequencies within a group of 
>waves
>can arrive at its destination before the rest, even at a rate greater than
>the speed of light.
>
>HA!
>
>Slice it, dice it anyway you want, if a wave goes faster than lightspeed it
>shows everthing we were told was fact was unproven  theory all based on
>curved space theory, all theory never proven because Einstein said the
>gravitational lens measurment had to be 1.75 and that has never been met.
>
>Scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" just
>like Dr. Vera Rubin states in the ACB NEWS Transcript posted at my website.
>
>Get used to, it was all bunk!!!
>
>Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on curved space.  But 
>just
>like the days of Galileo the high and mighty will never conceed.  Too bad,
>future history will record them as fools.  Big shot know it alls, happens
>every time.
>
>Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!  Told you so.  Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
>
>And I said it years ago before science announced any of this stuff.
>
>Folks it's a brand new ball game.
>
>Batter Up!!
>
>David Dennard
>"hitting grand slam after grand slam"
>http://www.whirlpower.cc
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 08:00:11 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: evolution
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:58:52 CDT
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I would just like to point out that Kansas took evolution out of the 
standards... not the text books.  This leaves the choice of teaching 
creation up to the teachers.


>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 4 Aug 00   Washington, DC
>
>1. SURVIVOR: CREATIONISTS ARE VOTED OFF THE ISLAND.  It was just
>one year ago that the state school board in Kansas removed human
>evolution and any mention of the big bang from the state science
>standards (WN 13 Aug 99).  In Tuesday's Republican Primary, which
>is almost the same as election in Kansas, three of the four
>creationist board members running for reelection fell victim to
>natural selection.  The largest margin of defeat was reserved for
>Linda Holloway, the board chair, who had raised $100K for a race
>that would normally have cost a few hundred dollars.  Tuesday's
>vote virtually assures that last year's action will be reversed.
>


Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 09:29:45 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:27:40 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: "Individualism" redefined
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Here is an interesting quote from an article about civilian sales of the
Humvee military vehicles, which cost $90,000, gets 13 miles to the gallon in
the city and 15 on the highway, seats four, and is 7 feet 2 inches wide
(2.2 meters):

	G.M. plans to aim the H1, H2 and H3 [models] at different
	markets. The H1 will be marketed to "rugged individualists."
	These are people who are irreverent and daring and want to be
	seen that way by other people, Mr. DiGiovanni said. "The rugged
	individualists are people who really seek out peer approval --
	they're really going to go off road, go out in the desert and
	come back and tell people about it," he said. 

	- New York Times, August 6, 2000, "G.M. Has High Hopes for
	Vehicle Truly Meant for Road Warriors," by Keith Bradsher

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 09:48:45 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 12:41:01 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: evolution
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Adam Cox wrote:

>I would just like to point out that Kansas took evolution out of the 
>standards... not the text books.  This leaves the choice of teaching 
>creation up to the teachers.

The choice was not left to teachers, but to individual school district
Boards of Education. Furthermore, the open policy meant that these boards
could select textbooks which do not mention evolution, which are readily
available from crackpot organizations. This is like authorizing the Boards
to teach addition, subtraction, multiplication but not division, or
American History with no mention of the Civil War.

In Georgia, the decision to teach sex education is left up to the district
Boards, which means, in practice, in places where sex education is most
needed it is not available, and STDs and abortions are rampant.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 10:12:45 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:02:56 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Evolutionism
> Creationism

Always one or the other, never both? 
Must then be absolutely no possiblilitiy of introducing 
new coding (non-evolutionary) in the Terran gene pool, 
someway, somehow, from somewhere else.

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Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 13:52:25 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: evolution
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Robert Stirniman wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> Evolutionism
>> Creationism
>
>Always one or the other, never both? 

Absolutely! Round earth, not flat. Thermodynamics, not the caloric theory.
Science, not superstition.


>Must then be absolutely no possiblilitiy of introducing 
>new coding (non-evolutionary) in the Terran gene pool, 
>someway, somehow, from somewhere else.

That only begs the question by moving it from Earth to some other planet.
If genes were introduced by intelligent creaturs from another planet, how
did those other creatures evolve in the first place? Somewhere, back at the
starting point, you need intelligent life evolving on its own with no
artificial coding. Of course, once a creature evolves and masters biology
it might mess around with its own genes or the genes of other species.

Anyway, evolution is off-topic here, and for some inexplicable reason it
provokes emotional responses from otherwise rational people, so I will not
comment on it any more today.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 14:32:37 2000
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>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> Evolutionism
>> Creationism
>
>Always one or the other, never both?
>Must then be absolutely no possiblilitiy of introducing
>new coding (non-evolutionary) in the Terran gene pool,
>someway, somehow, from somewhere else.

***{Teaching evolution, logically, would simply mean teaching the way
natural selection--"survival of the fittest"--influences the traits of
populations. There is nothing in such a presentation which implies  that
genetic material cannot be introduced from external sources. It has been
shown, for example, that if shotgun shells are filled with ground-up
material from one plant species, and another plant species is blasted with
them, some cross-species transplantation of genetic material occurs. Does
this contradict evolution? Of course not: natural selection continues to
operate within the context of such changes, determining whether the
resulting modified organisms will survive or perish. Similar considerations
apply if advanced beings from other planets are routinely kidnapping
earthlings, experimenting with them, and manipulating their genes: if such
hybrids are being produced, they will survive or not, and reproduce or not,
depending upon whether the new traits they receive are beneficial or not.
--MJ}***

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:50:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Hovercraft
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In a message dated 7/30/00 10:38:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> To Vortex:
>  
>  If the estimated pulse frequency of  ~3.1 Megahertz for coupling to the
>  gravity field of masses holds true, a current loop with ~3.1 Megahertz
>  pulses on it should exert a grav-antigrav force of ~ 379 Newtons,
>  (~85 pounds) at the Earth's surface.
>  
>  However, since there is a relativistic gamma due to near speed-of-light 
> pulse translation on the current loop the output pulse frequency of the 
> pulse generator needs to be increased by Gamma*~ 3.1 Megahertz. 
> A 10.0 Megahertz pulse train from a Function Generator might do it
> since the velocity of light on the best two-wire line is about 95%
> of c which results in a gamma of ~ 3.7.
>  
>  Gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2
>  
>  The calculated force is 
>  1.0E-7 * gamma* pulse current*0.02583*5.98E24/R^2 (newtons)
>  In this case R is the radius of the Earth (6.38E6 Meters)
>  
>  Electronix Express www.elexp.com sells a BK Precision function generator 
> which can gate a MOSFET for under $350.00.
>  
>  Good Luck!    :-)
>  
>  Regards,    Frederick
>  

This is interesting, interesting enough (to me anyway) to give it a try.
 
The BK Precision function generator is on order and I have the materials
on hand to construct the loop (antenna?). I will construct the 1 meter
diameter loop out of 1/4 inch copper tubing, mounting it on a base
of 1/4 inch thick plywood, hung from the lab ceiling by a spring balance.

Driving this thing with a ~10 MHz signal and getting it clean could be a
problem with standing waves so I anticipate getting a good impedence
match is going to be difficult. I will drive the loop directly from the
function generator output for rough inpedence matching before wiring
in the MOSFET driver and it's 12V auto battery power source.

The function generator will gate a MOSFET driver for the 
test runs, current through the loop will/should be ~1 ampere DC 
modulated, positive going ~10 MHz square wave (or negative going
if thats what it wants). IOW, with the MOSFET in conduction, a
1 ampere current will flow in the loop. The MOSFET will modulate
this current flow on and off at a frequency to be determined.

This will begin as soon as it gets a little cooler here in Vegas. Also I
will be starting up the H2K glow discharge at the same time. 

Fred Sparber has asked me to post this on Vortex. 
He and I will be working together on this and as always,
we appreciate any and all comments and suggestions.
 

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge Experiment</A> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  7 14:58:39 2000
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Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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Knuke
	As I understand it, the efficiency of the device is very low. This
is probably the reason it is not used in auto airconditioners. With your
mechanical skills, you could probably build one with irrigation parts from
Home Depot or what ever. I started to look into it once, but got diverted
and never got back to it. By the way I installed new batteries in the
Tropica last weekend, and drove it to school today. I am keeping my
fingers crossed that I get home again.

Hank

On Fri, 4 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Dean writes:
> >That's why I used the example of the vortex heat separator (I forgot
> >the inventor's name).  You feed compressed air into the inlet and get
> >cold air out of one outlet and hot air out of the other outlet.  No
> >moving parts in the separator.
> >
> >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
> 
> Hi Dean,
> 
> The vortex heat separator that you are referring to is called the
> Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube, and it is dead easy to build, as well as being
> really cheap. I don't know much about the history of the device, other than
> it has been around for a long time, and that it works.  Why it is not used
> in cars, I don't know, as it would be perfect for airconditioning without
> Freon or even heating.  It would drop the price of a new car about a grand,
> I would guesstimate, never wear out, need maintenance, or cause any
> pollution.  It was one of the devices demonstrated at the Berlin Free Energy
> conference recently.  There is a schematic here at this URL, unfortunately
> the text is all in Italian.
> 
> http://utenti.tripod.it/altraenergia/hil1.html
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 05:35:54 2000
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Although not a true antigravity device, it points out how
a gyro can be used to prevent flip-over when repelling
fields are used for levitation.

I suppose Vince can use a router motor as a gyro if flip-over
becomes a problem in the antigravity experiment.

 http://www.levitron.com/

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 08:35:56 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Honda Insight impressions in CNN article
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Here is a description of what it feels like to drive a Honda Insight hybrid
electric vehicle:

http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2000/08/08/home_auto/q_truett_column/

The author's impressions are interesting, but I think he made several
technical errors. He seems to say the batteries only recharge during
regenerative braking, and the motor goes off when the airconditioning goes
on, which is ridiculous.

Quotes:

"Though the Insight is a completely engineered vehicle, with all the bells
and whistles you'd expect in a Honda Civic, you'd really have to love the
environment to drive one every day. Though the concept of gasoline and
electric power is good, the Insight needs a bit more tweaking."


"The Insight can be challenging to drive. It is among the slowest cars I
have ever tested. You really have to drive defensively and with your senses
turned up a few notches. For instance, you don't want to try to merge into
fast moving traffic until there is a very wide space between cars."

My comment: It is probably a lot faster and less challenging than riding a
bicycle, or walking. Americans are spoiled!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 13:18:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:18:20 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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I am forwarding this from another list since some have expressed
interest.  Maybe Fred and Vince can get $600,000 for their AG
hula hoop experiment?!?

Terry

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In an amazing series of theoretical papers released this year, physics 
professor Fran De Aquino of Maranhao State University in Brazil has 
theoretically shown how to produce anti-gravity, and has successfully 
demonstrated the results on the lab bench with a device that he has built.

And in two more papers released in the last month, he shows how to build a 
215 HP motor powered solely by gravity using the principles he has already 
demonstrated, plus he provides a theoretical basis for unification of the 
gravitational and electromagnetic forces.

In private email, Prof. De Aquino advises that his first paper was 
peer-reviewed by 36 scientists around the world, and that everything is 
rigorously correct.  A Nobel prize-winner also adds his endorsement.

The papers, we are advised, are also carried on the Los Alamos National 
Laboratory Website, and Prof. De Aquino further indicates that he has just 
been awarded a $600,000 grant from the US Department of Energy to validate 
his, and parallel, Soviet work.

All these papers, which include the plans for the Gravity Motor and the 
Anti-Gravity Disc, can be downloaded from the CSETI Website (follow the 
Link from the Front Page).

The implications of all this for transportation and the biosphere are obvious.



Regards

Tony Craddock
Web Administrator
CSETI
<http://www.cseti.org>http://www.cseti.org




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John Schnurer writes:

>	What is the specifc diffference [s] between a vortex and a
>whirlpool?  What, specifically defines a whirlpool?

John, is you haven't seen the photo of the whirlpool, you should go to the 
library and get on the web, or ask a friend.

Whirlpools are unknown to science.

The difference in a vortex and a whirlpool is the same difference in a 
tornado and a hurricane.

Currently our science would make the mistake of going to the East Coast when 
a hurricane is approaching and say, "look, that is a tornado".

One could point out to that scientist, "no that does not look like a 
tornado, that looks like a hurricane."

The scientist would reply, "a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, see 
it says so in this book."

The scientist would be dead wrong.

David



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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Jed,

How about Individualism on a budget?

This is not an advertisement, buuuuut since you brought it up. ;^)

I am part owner in a company that assembles "Hummer" kit vehicles at half the 
cost of the G.M./AM General "Hummer".  We call it the Badlands RT, our company 
is the manufacturers east coast factory representative.

Ours also seat 6 instead of just 4.

Currently at "www.MasonAuto.com", soon moving to "www.NotaHummer.com".


Bill
webriggs concentric.net
Briggs XLNsystems.com

>Here is an interesting quote from an article about civilian sales of the
>Humvee military vehicles, which cost $90,000, gets 13 miles to the gallon in
>the city and 15 on the highway, seats four, and is 7 feet 2 inches wide
>(2.2 meters):

>        G.M. plans to aim the H1, H2 and H3 [models] at different
>        markets. The H1 will be marketed to "rugged individualists."
>        These are people who are irreverent and daring and want to be
>        seen that way by other people, Mr. DiGiovanni said. "The rugged
>        individualists are people who really seek out peer approval --
>        they're really going to go off road, go out in the desert and
>        come back and tell people about it," he said.

>        - New York Times, August 6, 2000, "G.M. Has High Hopes for
>        Vehicle Truly Meant for Road Warriors," by Keith Bradsher

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 14:37:02 2000
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: What is the difference
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David,

Are you a politician?  Could you just answer the question?

Don't just say there is 5 or 6 different ways.

Besides size, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE ?

Bill

>John Schnurer writes:

>>       What is the specifc diffference [s] between a vortex and a
>>whirlpool?  What, specifically defines a whirlpool?

>John, is you haven't seen the photo of the whirlpool, you should go to the
>library and get on the web, or ask a friend.

>Whirlpools are unknown to science.

>The difference in a vortex and a whirlpool is the same difference in a
>tornado and a hurricane.

>Currently our science would make the mistake of going to the East Coast when
>a hurricane is approaching and say, "look, that is a tornado".

>One could point out to that scientist, "no that does not look like a
>tornado, that looks like a hurricane."

>The scientist would reply, "a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, see
>it says so in this book."

>The scientist would be dead wrong.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 15:18:22 2000
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From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: CORROBORATED: THE "SPEED OF LIGHT" CAN BE EXCEEDED!
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*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

        THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
           11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
             Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
                  (480) 657-3722
             josephnewman earthlink.net
                www.josephnewman.com


          FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (8/8/2000)

          JOSEPH NEWMAN'S HYPOTHESIS THAT
        THE "SPEED OF LIGHT CAN BE EXCEEDED"
                 HAS BEEN PROVED!

[7/20 ARTICLE FROM LOS ANGELES TIMES posted on site]
               www.josephnewman.com

    I  compliment  the  credible  thinking  scientist
described  in the above  article who  has proved that
light can exceed 186,282 miles per second.

    However, I wish for them and others to ponder and
think on their own quote:

 "THE BROADEST MESSAGE IS NEVER TRUST YOUR TEXTBOOK"

I encourage you to let go of the  mental restrictions
of "YOUR TEXTBOOKS" and therein become unconfused. By
your own  numerous  experiments  and  accomplishments
with light, you should then realize that:

                  LIGHT HAS MASS.

If it did not,  then a  laser's ability to  penetrate
metal  that is  3/16"  thick would be impossible.  Of
course,   there  are  laser-metal-cutting   companies
located in most major cities across the U.S.

Please read and master my book [The Energy Machine of
Joseph Newman]  and combine the  facts I present with
the above  experiment  concerning the speed of light.
Allow your mind the freedom to dream.   You will then
clearly understand that light consists of  GYROSCOPIC
PARTICLES  travelling  in the  same  direction at the
speed  of  light.   Therein  the  historic  confusion
generated  by  the  WAVE/PARTICLE  DUALITY  OF  LIGHT
vanishes and the mechanical laws of GYROSCOPIC ACTION
explain  said  duality  and  opens  your  mind to the
freedom   to   dream  for   the  advancement  of  the
human race.

I salute you --- keep going forward.

So that  you may be inspired, my website now features
pages 71 through 79 from my book  [The Energy Machine
of Joseph Newman] which  includes Chapter 10 entitled
QUANTUM MECHANICS & Chapter 11 entitled LIGHT.

These pages should help you  understand why  -- after
meeting with me and studying my book --  Dr. Swimmer,
a top  mathematician at  Arizona State University for
more than 30 years,  signed a Declaration saying that
I was correct  by odds  of  "more  than a trillion to
one" of my findings being an "accidental occurrence".

A Unified  Mechanical  Field  Theory can be explained
by an understanding  of the mechanical interrelation-
ships  of  the  GYROSCOPIC PARTICLE!  With respect to
such a unified field theory,  there is no question in
science that I cannot answer as a result of my under-
standing of the  mechanical actions and attributes of
the  gyroscopic  particle.    Such  an  understanding
includes an  explanation  for  Inertia,  Gravitation,
Planetary  Motion,  Electromagnetism,  Heat, and  the
fact that the speed of light  can be exceeded which I
originally predicted over 15 years ago in my book ---
Chapter 26 entitled "THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH".  Included
also are pages 280 and 281 from my book.   Hopefully,
those two important pages  will cause you to dream of
what can be the  HAPPY  AND  EXCITING  FUTURE  OF THE
HUMAN RACE.

Warmly,

[Signed]
Joseph W. Newman

(480) 657-3722

[Pages from book posted on site.]


To view the above-referenced article and pages, visit:
www.josephnewman.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 16:44:17 2000
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To: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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	Dear Bill,

	Maybe there IS no difference......  and that is why it is hard to
verballyize... or "writal-ize" the answer.  I thin David has the
beginning of a potentially good idea, but is wrapped about the axel to
a degree and cannot describe the rest of the invention beside a pool of
water and paddles.   
	I used the 4 foot baby pool method... these are usually 5 to 7
dollars and if you put it on a couple of truck tire innertubes you can
slosh, swish, vort, bort, jangle, bangle, zoob zabb and blaabborate the
water all kinds of ways... BUT:  It seems to me when you stop pushing it
about is decays ....

	HopeDavid writes and carefully draws the missing bits.  

On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> David,
> 
> Are you a politician?  Could you just answer the question?
> 
> Don't just say there is 5 or 6 different ways.
> 
> Besides size, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE ?
> 
> Bill
> 
> >John Schnurer writes:
> 
> >>       What is the specifc diffference [s] between a vortex and a
> >>whirlpool?  What, specifically defines a whirlpool?
> 
> >John, is you haven't seen the photo of the whirlpool, you should go to the
> >library and get on the web, or ask a friend.
> 
> >Whirlpools are unknown to science.
> 
> >The difference in a vortex and a whirlpool is the same difference in a
> >tornado and a hurricane.
> 
> >Currently our science would make the mistake of going to the East Coast when
> >a hurricane is approaching and say, "look, that is a tornado".
> 
> >One could point out to that scientist, "no that does not look like a
> >tornado, that looks like a hurricane."
> 
> >The scientist would reply, "a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, see
> >it says so in this book."
> 
> >The scientist would be dead wrong.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 16:44:25 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Bill, the difference is obvious.  A tornado is not a hurricane.  A vortex is 
not a whirlpool.  See Anatomy of a Whirlpool, posted below.  It is all about 
the difference in a torus donut and toroid flow that has a dount shape.

David


>From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: Vortex-l <Vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: What is the difference
>Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:16:31 -0400 (EDT)
>
>David,
>
>Are you a politician?  Could you just answer the question?
>
>Don't just say there is 5 or 6 different ways.
>
>Besides size, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE ?



                    Anatomy of a Whirlpool

Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.

The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
lip.

        __      __
         "\    /"
        <' \  / '>
            \/


The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
inward spin.



____________E______________     ________________E_____________
            >              \   /               <
                         <' \ / '>
     ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^

            <                                   >

The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
the frame dragging wobble effect.

A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.


       ____                                         ____
        "  ---                                   ---  "
              ''''''....              ....''''''
                        ''''\    /''''
                   <'        \  /        '>
                              \/
                               \
                               /

This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.

The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
flusher is not a whirlpool.

This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
it is not, very different.

http://www.whirlpower.cc


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 16:54:58 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CORROBORATED: THE "SPEED OF LIGHT" CAN BE EXCEEDED!
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:50:42 PDT
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But when tapping into gravity mass is what counts, not microparticles.  And 
Whirlpower works on the gyroscopic frame dragging action not the action 
itself.

Trying to tap the action is like all early vortex science of trying to tap 
the vortex toroid flow.  It only snuffs out the action.  Much like snuffing 
out a flame.

Sorry to say it, but same thing in this and all electromagnetic overunity 
devices.  You will find energy even lift from an electrostatic charge but 
all that needs to be plugged into a power source to overcome the snuffing 
out action.

Only Whirlpower is energy.  The rest is electrostatic gravity powerd 
propulsion.  I plan to use some of it to power the saucers.  Saucers are 
saucer shaped because they are Whirlpowered.

David


>From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: CORROBORATED: THE "SPEED OF LIGHT" CAN BE EXCEEDED!
>Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:18:02 -0600
>
>*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
>
>         THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
>            11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
>              Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
>                   (480) 657-3722
>              josephnewman earthlink.net
>                 www.josephnewman.com
>
>
>           FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (8/8/2000)
>
>           JOSEPH NEWMAN'S HYPOTHESIS THAT
>         THE "SPEED OF LIGHT CAN BE EXCEEDED"
>                  HAS BEEN PROVED!
>
>[7/20 ARTICLE FROM LOS ANGELES TIMES posted on site]
>                www.josephnewman.com
>
>     I  compliment  the  credible  thinking  scientist
>described  in the above  article who  has proved that
>light can exceed 186,282 miles per second.
>
>     However, I wish for them and others to ponder and
>think on their own quote:
>
>  "THE BROADEST MESSAGE IS NEVER TRUST YOUR TEXTBOOK"
>
>I encourage you to let go of the  mental restrictions
>of "YOUR TEXTBOOKS" and therein become unconfused. By
>your own  numerous  experiments  and  accomplishments
>with light, you should then realize that:
>
>                   LIGHT HAS MASS.
>
>If it did not,  then a  laser's ability to  penetrate
>metal  that is  3/16"  thick would be impossible.  Of
>course,   there  are  laser-metal-cutting   companies
>located in most major cities across the U.S.
>
>Please read and master my book [The Energy Machine of
>Joseph Newman]  and combine the  facts I present with
>the above  experiment  concerning the speed of light.
>Allow your mind the freedom to dream.   You will then
>clearly understand that light consists of  GYROSCOPIC
>PARTICLES  travelling  in the  same  direction at the
>speed  of  light.   Therein  the  historic  confusion
>generated  by  the  WAVE/PARTICLE  DUALITY  OF  LIGHT
>vanishes and the mechanical laws of GYROSCOPIC ACTION
>explain  said  duality  and  opens  your  mind to the
>freedom   to   dream  for   the  advancement  of  the
>human race.
>
>I salute you --- keep going forward.
>
>So that  you may be inspired, my website now features
>pages 71 through 79 from my book  [The Energy Machine
>of Joseph Newman] which  includes Chapter 10 entitled
>QUANTUM MECHANICS & Chapter 11 entitled LIGHT.
>
>These pages should help you  understand why  -- after
>meeting with me and studying my book --  Dr. Swimmer,
>a top  mathematician at  Arizona State University for
>more than 30 years,  signed a Declaration saying that
>I was correct  by odds  of  "more  than a trillion to
>one" of my findings being an "accidental occurrence".
>
>A Unified  Mechanical  Field  Theory can be explained
>by an understanding  of the mechanical interrelation-
>ships  of  the  GYROSCOPIC PARTICLE!  With respect to
>such a unified field theory,  there is no question in
>science that I cannot answer as a result of my under-
>standing of the  mechanical actions and attributes of
>the  gyroscopic  particle.    Such  an  understanding
>includes an  explanation  for  Inertia,  Gravitation,
>Planetary  Motion,  Electromagnetism,  Heat, and  the
>fact that the speed of light  can be exceeded which I
>originally predicted over 15 years ago in my book ---
>Chapter 26 entitled "THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH".  Included
>also are pages 280 and 281 from my book.   Hopefully,
>those two important pages  will cause you to dream of
>what can be the  HAPPY  AND  EXCITING  FUTURE  OF THE
>HUMAN RACE.
>
>Warmly,
>
>[Signed]
>Joseph W. Newman
>
>(480) 657-3722
>
>[Pages from book posted on site.]
>
>
>To view the above-referenced article and pages, visit:
>www.josephnewman.com
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 16:59:13 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What is the difference
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	What relation ship is there between the magnitude of the frame
dragging effect and the power you can get out of the whirlpool?  What is
the part of the whirlpool that results in power...?  Or what property
reustls in power?  Please.

On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> Bill, the difference is obvious.  A tornado is not a hurricane.  A vortex is 
> not a whirlpool.  See Anatomy of a Whirlpool, posted below.  It is all about 
> the difference in a torus donut and toroid flow that has a dount shape.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> >From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: Vortex-l <Vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >Subject: Re: What is the difference
> >Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:16:31 -0400 (EDT)
> >
> >David,
> >
> >Are you a politician?  Could you just answer the question?
> >
> >Don't just say there is 5 or 6 different ways.
> >
> >Besides size, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE ?
> 
> 
> 
>                     Anatomy of a Whirlpool
> 
> Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
> gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.
> 
> The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
> The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
> lip.
> 
>         __      __
>          "\    /"
>         <' \  / '>
>             \/
> 
> 
> The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
> inward spin.
> 
> 
> 
> ____________E______________     ________________E_____________
>             >              \   /               <
>                          <' \ / '>
>      ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^
> 
>             <                                   >
> 
> The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
> the frame dragging wobble effect.
> 
> A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.
> 
> 
>        ____                                         ____
>         "  ---                                   ---  "
>               ''''''....              ....''''''
>                         ''''\    /''''
>                    <'        \  /        '>
>                               \/
>                                \
>                                /
> 
> This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
> torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
> vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
> vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
> horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.
> 
> The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
> input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
> flusher is not a whirlpool.
> 
> This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
> science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
> to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
> large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
> course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
> science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
> say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
> the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
> it is not, very different.
> 
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 17:11:41 2000
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You asked for it, and now you got it:  The David Dennard-Joseph Newman
debate!  Who will win?  I'm betting on David personally...the HDTV has never
been defeated experimentally.

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 17:35:48 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What is the difference
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:34:06 PDT
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John Schnurer writes:

>	Maybe there IS no difference......  and that is why it is hard to
>verballyize... or "writal-ize" the answer.  I thin David has the
>beginning of a potentially good idea, but is wrapped about the axel to a 
>degree and cannot describe the rest of the invention beside a pool of water 
>and paddles.
>	I used the 4 foot baby pool method... these are usually 5 to 7
>dollars and if you put it on a couple of truck tire innertubes you can 
>slosh, swish, vort, bort, jangle, bangle, zoob zabb and blaabborate the 
>water all kinds of ways... BUT:  It seems to me when you stop pushing it 
>about is decays ....
>
>	HopeDavid writes and carefully draws the missing bits.

One missing bit is you need to build a proper whirlpool first.  John thinks 
the paddles make the whirlpool.  Although he does not understand Whirlpower 
he does "seem" to make an effort to.  Hard to tell from this end.

A whirlpool must be made first.  The paddels do not make the whirlpool.  The 
whirlpool is made by the current from the intput.  This input is constant 
but just a tiny squirt according to our tests, relatively speaking, to make 
a massive giant whirlpool.  The feedback loop runs constantly but is only 
moving less than %1 of the mass of the system.  The feedback loop is not 
what powers Whirlpower.  Much like a %90 unaccounted for energy of motion 
has been found in spiral galaxies, and the mysterious power of the hurricane 
can not be explained by known science, the whirlpool which has the same dual 
radial arm pattern will exhibit a similar unaccounted for energy of motion.  
That motion comes from the wobble, the third note of precession, the Third 
Wave, the third note of the cosmic chord, the off dead center measurement at 
the poles that any spinning object has in one revolution.

And, Whirlpower has both the tornado type and the whirlpool type vortex to 
make the largest most powerful whirlpool possbile.

And, there is no science found anywhere to date on whirlpools.  They are 
unknown to science.  If any of you folks can post whirlpool data, you will 
be the first to dispose of the Whirlpower Declaration.  Not withstanding,  
the Whirlpower Deeclaration stands as credible.

David Dennard
The Whirlpower Declaration
http://www.whirlpower.cc


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 19:22:20 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:20:24 PDT
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Steven writes:

>You asked for it, and now you got it:  The David Dennard-Joseph Newman 
>debate!  Who will win?

I will.  Whirlpools are unknown to science.

And when they are built and tested in a scientific manner we will go from a 
0 to a 1 civilization.

Like Dr. Kaku says, "our passage from a 0 to a 1 civilizaton is probably 
about something so simple it is just that no one ever thought about it 
before."

Great news just in.  Whirlpower was just introduced scientifically to a 
scientific siminar in France with positive results.  Still confirmed as 
unique, ONWARD is the word up!  WAY, Phoenix Tao of Eagle, UP!

Bubble UP!!!

"It's the fizz in the physics"

David Dennard
The Paradigm Shift
http://www.whirlpower.cc

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 19:51:35 2000
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Subject: Re: What is the difference
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:47:44 PDT
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John writes:

>What relation ship is there between the magnitude of the frame
>dragging effect and the power you can get out of the whirlpool?  What isthe 
>part of the whirlpool that results in power...?  Or what property results 
>in power?  Please.

Since there is no scientific data on whirlpools and won't be until some more 
are built and tested, or until the Whirlpower Declaration is disposed of by 
the Scientific Method, the answer these questions are not known.

Latest in from France, quadruple the effect of a tornado type vortex.

The dual radial arm pattern is an energy spiral resulting from the wobble of 
the whirlpool.  Unlike Newman's or any other electromagnetic overunity or 
past Chaos Theory type vortex science, the torus donut, or Archimedes Torus, 
as coined by engineer Palickar on the Antigravity List, contains this 
energy.  The energy previously attemped to be tapped in a tornado type 
vortex was snuffed out by the tap as well as it does to all electromagnetic 
overunity.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 20:28:54 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:25:25 EDT
Subject: Re: CORROBORATED: THE "SPEED OF LIGHT" CAN BE EXCEEDED!
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In a message dated 8/8/00 4:55:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
daviddennard hotmail.com writes:

> Only Whirlpower is energy.  The rest is electrostatic gravity powerd 
>  propulsion.  I plan to use some of it to power the saucers.  Saucers are 
>  saucer shaped because they are Whirlpowered.
>  
>  David

...and the triangular shaped ufo that was observed and video taped 
over Pheonix Az is powered by...?

  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  8 22:00:31 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:50:33 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

Although not related to scientific research, it may worth to post it here as this may end our worries "Why this (free energy) researcher site is currently unreachable or blank?". :)

A new information sharing system is available "Freenet"  at http://freenet.sourceforge.net

I did read features and FAQ, and appears fitting requirements for resisting suppression. It is totally decentralized, distributed, anonymous publishing, and anonymous access, personal computer based server system.

The program running the Freenet is open source, and the original paper which the system is build on is available.

See the FAQ.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 00:19:28 2000
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Vince writes:
>...and the triangular shaped ufo that was observed and video taped
>over Pheonix Az is powered by...?

A lot of folks say that is ours.  Primative saucer, and stealth reports on 
Antigravity egroups.com, a whirlpool type power.......

Gappping tornado type vortex by the sound of it getting some power but again 
like electromagnetic overunity gotta keep feeding the snuffing out effect.

But I expect no debate.  No one dares debate me anymore.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 05:52:37 2000
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David Dennard wrote:

 No one dares debate me anymore.

---

Yawnnnn.

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

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That makes sense.  Electromagnetic overunity is not energy.

Gravity gives the energy of motion to all things.  Can't expect those who 
have gone down the wrong path to be excited about my progress.  Unless they 
are interested in a cleaner planet for the sake of their children, not just 
their own personal gig.

But alas, that is mostly the case in new energy as I have seen it, it's cut 
throat.  But Whirlpower is given freely to all.  Steal this invention.  Time 
has come today!!

You get what you give, it is so true.  :)   Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: CORROBORATED: THE "SPEED OF LIGHT" CAN BE EXCEEDED!
>Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 07:44:56 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
>  No one dares debate me anymore.
>
>---
>
>Yawnnnn.
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 07:57:49 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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      I've been out of the discussion for the last few months owing to 
computer problems.

      Twincities Public Television has been rebroadcasting episodes of 
Scientific American Frontiers with Alan Alda. The other night I tuned 
in as Alan was doing an episode on energy production. He was off to 
Austin Texas, then he mentioned Braker Lane. I'm thinking that's were 
Earth Tech is located. The next thing that I saw was Earth Tech's 
front door. Alan interviewed Scott Little and then Hal Puthoff, who 
mentioned a cup of vacuum having enough energy to vaporize all the 
oceans on earth. Then they cut to Scott showing Alan an experiment 
involving a calorimeter, with two digital outputs. Scott was 
explaining something about anomalous energy showing up in a second 
run.

      I've been thinking about this problem for some time. Those of 
you who have been following elemental transmutation, and cold fusion 
will have heard about the low energy nuclear transmutation ( LENT ) 
reactor. According to David Moon, the operators were transmutating a 
significant fraction of a gram atomic unit of Thorium in an hour. As 
I recall it was 10% of a mole in an hour. Lets say 25 grams per hour. 
Last year I asked Ed Storms about the percentage of the plutonium in 
an atom bomb undergoes fission. His reply was 1%. Now lets say that 
critical mass is 11 KG. 1% of which is 100 G. If these numbers are 
correct the LENT reactor fissions 1/4 of the mass of that atom bomb. 
If this is the case, the resulting heat would make that cell 
vaporize, not to mention pealing the paint off of the walls.

      So were's the energy going? As I told David, breaking up an 
expensive element like palladium into cheap elements like nickle and 
iron makes an interesting physics experiment, but it doesn't make any 
economic sense. The only thing worse is not being able to find most 
of energy that should be produced.

      Something else has occurred to me, if I handed you a stack of 
kindling and a match, and showed you how to build a fire, when we got 
it going, you would not need a bomb calorimeter to convince yourself 
that there was energy being produced.

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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thomas malloy wrote:

>      So were's the energy going? As I told David, breaking up an 
>expensive element like palladium into cheap elements like nickle and 
>iron makes an interesting physics experiment, but it doesn't make any 
>economic sense.

That depends upon how much energy you get out of the palladium. Enriched
uranium is expensive, but it makes economic sense to fission a small
fraction of it and then throw the rest away (bury it underground). Even
gold could be used as nuclear fuel at a profit if you got enough energy out
of it.

I think U costs $25 to $50 per kg, which is much cheaper than Pd or Au, but
that is probably not for the enriched form, and it does not take into
account the cost of clean up or disposal. See the Uranium Institute study
http://www.uilondon.org/sym/1997/pool.htm

- Jed

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youM Pacific Daylight Time, daviddennard hotmail.com writes:

> Vince writes:
>  >...and the triangular shaped ufo that was observed and video taped
>  >over Pheonix Az is powered by...?
>  
>  A lot of folks say that is ours.  Primative saucer, and stealth reports on 
>  Antigravity egroups.com, a whirlpool type power.......

>  
>  Gappping tornado type vortex by the sound of it getting some power but 
again 
> 
>  like electromagnetic overunity gotta keep feeding the snuffing out effect.
>  
>  But I expect no debate.  No one dares debate me anymore.

David, no one can debate you because you never answer points
brought up. See above:  "is powered by?" and your answer 
is "a lot of folks say...blah blah"
Some debate. Sheesh!
Where is this so called whirl whatever? Ever built one? Test it?
How much power input? Output? How measured? Please show 
us some solid data.

Vince 
>  
>  David
>  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 11:54:01 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEASE
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	Dear Folks,


	I am trying to find out about Ethernet and am also  seeking
references about Ethernet.

	In the Ethernet system wires connect computers to one another and
information passes from computer to computer.  

	I am VERY curious about the specific nature of the Ethernet signal
itself.

	Q:	Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?

	Q:	What is the nature of T 10 and T 100 ?  

		I may have the terms wrong.  One may be 10 meg bits per
second and one may be 100 meg bits per second.

	Q: Are there any good references you can steer me to?

	Q:	How far can the signals be sent and what are the ins and
outs and dos and don'ts of the signals, the wire and the methodology.


	Please and thank you.

				John Schnurer 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 12:20:04 2000
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Folks,
> 
>         I am trying to find out about Ethernet and am also  seeking
> references about Ethernet.

You want the IEEE 802.3 standard.  It can be ordered from:

http://www.ieee.org/
 
>         In the Ethernet system wires connect computers to one another and
> information passes from computer to computer.
> 
>         I am VERY curious about the specific nature of the Ethernet signal
> itself.
> 
>         Q:      Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?

Yes.
 
>         Q:      What is the nature of T 10 and T 100 ?
> 
>                 I may have the terms wrong.  One may be 10 meg bits per
> second and one may be 100 meg bits per second.

Nope, you got it right.  100baseT is a 100 Mbps standard and
10baseT is 10 Mbps.

>         Q: Are there any good references you can steer me to?

Well, there's probably way too much info in the IEEE standard. 
Try a web search on "100baseT Ethernet FAQ".
 
>         Q:      How far can the signals be sent and what are the ins and
> outs and dos and don'ts of the signals, the wire and the methodology.

100baseT UTP (unshielded twisted pair) standard using category 5
cables are generally good for 100 meters.  Repeaters are
available but cumbersome.  There are also standards for fiber
optic cable which can take your ethernet connection much farther.

Regards,

Terry

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Pancake - electret
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	Dear Folks,

	I was speaking with a friend of mine about various discussion
lists I follow and the interest in OU.

	I will relate the substance of some of this discussion ....
.....In a VERY condensed fashion:
 
  He asked many good questions and one train of thought was "What stands
in the way of these investigators?" 
	Part of the answer was the lack of  availability of finished
made parts of some of these "systems".  I explained that some of the parts
were not made and sold as stand alone components you could buy.  He then
said " Name me  three parts, I'll make the darn things and sell
them!"........ and I named two, off hand; 

	pancake coils
	electret material [s] charged and uncharged

	He asked about the description of the parts and some
information about making them and then said "Ask your list to come up with
a third.  I can make the first two (meaning the coil and the electret) and
maybe I can make all three."

	If there is any interest he, his name is Dan Pel, will run some
up.   His first go is a pancake coil 4 or 5 inches diameter in 24 AWG
copper.  I suggested an option which would be bifilar and bifilar with
poly monofilament... for insulation and reduced capacitance.  The use of a
monofilament as a separator in coils is a technique I have used for more
than 20 years and it works very very well.

	He is looking into electret film material.

	Can you name a third thing he can make?	



			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 13:04:20 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A tiny Jet of water... What is the difference
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	Dear David,

	Would you suggest a tiny jet of water bing used at a tangent?
	Do you think on the surface or under the surfaceis best.

	I used the paddles because in an earlier post you said
	"...It won't work without the paddles, they run the whole thing."

	Let me know if you want to allow water to exit the bottom... or
not. and if yes, then how?  Please

On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> John Schnurer writes:
> 
> >	Maybe there IS no difference......  and that is why it is hard to
> >verballyize... or "writal-ize" the answer.  I thin David has the
> >beginning of a potentially good idea, but is wrapped about the axel to a 
> >degree and cannot describe the rest of the invention beside a pool of water 
> >and paddles.
> >	I used the 4 foot baby pool method... these are usually 5 to 7
> >dollars and if you put it on a couple of truck tire innertubes you can 
> >slosh, swish, vort, bort, jangle, bangle, zoob zabb and blaabborate the 
> >water all kinds of ways... BUT:  It seems to me when you stop pushing it 
> >about is decays ....
> >
> >	HopeDavid writes and carefully draws the missing bits.
> 
> One missing bit is you need to build a proper whirlpool first.  John thinks 
> the paddles make the whirlpool.  Although he does not understand Whirlpower 
> he does "seem" to make an effort to.  Hard to tell from this end.
> 
> A whirlpool must be made first.  The paddels do not make the whirlpool.  The 
> whirlpool is made by the current from the intput.  This input is constant 
> but just a tiny squirt according to our tests, relatively speaking, to make 
> a massive giant whirlpool.  The feedback loop runs constantly but is only 
> moving less than %1 of the mass of the system.  The feedback loop is not 
> what powers Whirlpower.  Much like a %90 unaccounted for energy of motion 
> has been found in spiral galaxies, and the mysterious power of the hurricane 
> can not be explained by known science, the whirlpool which has the same dual 
> radial arm pattern will exhibit a similar unaccounted for energy of motion.  
> That motion comes from the wobble, the third note of precession, the Third 
> Wave, the third note of the cosmic chord, the off dead center measurement at 
> the poles that any spinning object has in one revolution.
> 
> And, Whirlpower has both the tornado type and the whirlpool type vortex to 
> make the largest most powerful whirlpool possbile.
> 
> And, there is no science found anywhere to date on whirlpools.  They are 
> unknown to science.  If any of you folks can post whirlpool data, you will 
> be the first to dispose of the Whirlpower Declaration.  Not withstanding,  
> the Whirlpower Deeclaration stands as credible.
> 
> David Dennard
> The Whirlpower Declaration
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 13:49:34 2000
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Subject: Re: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEASE
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Hi John,

> Q: Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?
Standard Ethernet is baseband, i.e. no carrier wave.

> Q: What is the nature of T 10 and T 100 ?  
> 
> I may have the terms wrong.  One may be 10 meg bits per
> second and one may be 100 meg bits per second.
The 10 and 100 are in fact the bit rate in Mb per second.
The T stands for the twisted pair nature of the actual
 physical wiring for this variation. 
 10 base T  uses 2 twisted pairs at 10 Mb/sec.
 The older style 10 base 2 uses a single coax line at 10 Mb/sec.
 We have these three types of connections installed at our office.
 > 
> Q: Are there any good references you can steer me to?
Since you don't have internet access, a library or a local
bookstore should have Ethernet protocol descriptions in
books about networking. The basic protocol is CDMA
(collision detection multiple access) with fixed packet lengths.
When collisions of data packets are detected, the data is
retransmitted after a delay.
> 
> Q: How far can the signals be sent and what are the ins and
> outs and dos and don'ts of the signals, the wire and the methodology.
About 100 meters for 10 base T without hubs or repeaters. Each
physical implementation has different distance capabilities. 
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 14:03:31 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:55:11 PDT
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Vince writes:

>David, no one can debate you because you never answer points
>brought up. See above:  "is powered by?" and your answer
>is "a lot of folks say...blah blah"
>Some debate. Sheesh!
>Where is this so called whirl whatever? Ever built one? Test it?
>How much power input? Output? How measured? Please show
>us some solid data.

Complete drawings and theory are at
http://www.whirlpower.cc

If it were already built and generating electicity do you think I would be 
on this list?  Ha!

David

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 14:42:55 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Solar Lamp
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You wrote:
>A lot of the micro-hydro people are working on just that....
>producing lighting electricity for 3rd world countries that
>local people can build and maintain...if anyone wants to
>get on micro-hydro list....email and will send link....steve

Ahoy!

I'm really behind on my e-mail, but was interested in this micro-hydro list.
I would appreciate it greatly if you sent the link.

Thanks,

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 15:00:54 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Ross Tessien's Website
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Ahoy!

Found the URL of Ross Tessien's company, Impulse Devices, Inc., but still
haven't had a chance to look at his patent apps.  Apparently, he is using a
multibubble cavitator, but it is of the sonic type.

http://www.impulsedevices.com/index.html

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 15:18:03 2000
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Subject: Re: A tiny Jet of water... What is the difference
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John, you are unbelievable.  I have explaind it to you in depth many times.  
You got a lengthy description just for you at Antigravity many paragraphs in 
detail.  You can go to the library and check out the website if you are 
interested.

But, yes, the compound vortex is made by making a whirlpool from the current 
input at the perimeter, beneath the water, and the vortex is compounded by 
outake at the drain, connected by the feedback loop.

Our tests show it takes the least amount of feedback to make the best 
whirlpool with a tiney vortex in the center.  Our tests show the torus donut 
is intact with milk squirt tests.  The milk is not drawn towards the center.

The Big Wheel rides along with the current in the torus donut, it is not a 
turbine.  The torus donut is gravity driven by the wobble of the whirlpool.  
Children say they understand it, it is very simple.

I seems many can't see it because they do not want to see it.  But many do 
and more all the time.

And I will get the data, only the data counts.

And it will not be long.  The BBC just contacted me and say they want to do 
a story on Whirlpower as part of their "Passions for Science" Special, all 
about amateur scientists like me.  Very impressed with my work, they say.  
Why some of you folks can't see it, well, The Emperor Wears No Clothes.  
Herd mentality.  And don't think I will be impressed if some now start to 
show interest just because Whirlpower is moving up.  The time to have gotten 
your vote on the Declaration was long ago.  But votes will still be 
accepted.

Remember Henny Penny.

David


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: A tiny Jet of water... What is the difference
>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:02:51 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>	Dear David,
>
>	Would you suggest a tiny jet of water bing used at a tangent?
>	Do you think on the surface or under the surfaceis best.
>
>	I used the paddles because in an earlier post you said
>	"...It won't work without the paddles, they run the whole thing."
>
>	Let me know if you want to allow water to exit the bottom... or
>not. and if yes, then how?  Please
>
>On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:
>
> > John Schnurer writes:
> >
> > >	Maybe there IS no difference......  and that is why it is hard to
> > >verballyize... or "writal-ize" the answer.  I thin David has the
> > >beginning of a potentially good idea, but is wrapped about the axel to 
>a
> > >degree and cannot describe the rest of the invention beside a pool of 
>water
> > >and paddles.
> > >	I used the 4 foot baby pool method... these are usually 5 to 7
> > >dollars and if you put it on a couple of truck tire innertubes you can
> > >slosh, swish, vort, bort, jangle, bangle, zoob zabb and blaabborate the
> > >water all kinds of ways... BUT:  It seems to me when you stop pushing 
>it
> > >about is decays ....
> > >
> > >	HopeDavid writes and carefully draws the missing bits.
> >
> > One missing bit is you need to build a proper whirlpool first.  John 
>thinks
> > the paddles make the whirlpool.  Although he does not understand 
>Whirlpower
> > he does "seem" to make an effort to.  Hard to tell from this end.
> >
> > A whirlpool must be made first.  The paddels do not make the whirlpool.  
>The
> > whirlpool is made by the current from the intput.  This input is 
>constant
> > but just a tiny squirt according to our tests, relatively speaking, to 
>make
> > a massive giant whirlpool.  The feedback loop runs constantly but is 
>only
> > moving less than %1 of the mass of the system.  The feedback loop is not
> > what powers Whirlpower.  Much like a %90 unaccounted for energy of 
>motion
> > has been found in spiral galaxies, and the mysterious power of the 
>hurricane
> > can not be explained by known science, the whirlpool which has the same 
>dual
> > radial arm pattern will exhibit a similar unaccounted for energy of 
>motion.
> > That motion comes from the wobble, the third note of precession, the 
>Third
> > Wave, the third note of the cosmic chord, the off dead center 
>measurement at
> > the poles that any spinning object has in one revolution.
> >
> > And, Whirlpower has both the tornado type and the whirlpool type vortex 
>to
> > make the largest most powerful whirlpool possbile.
> >
> > And, there is no science found anywhere to date on whirlpools.  They are
> > unknown to science.  If any of you folks can post whirlpool data, you 
>will
> > be the first to dispose of the Whirlpower Declaration.  Not 
>withstanding,
> > the Whirlpower Deeclaration stands as credible.
> >
> > David Dennard
> > The Whirlpower Declaration
> > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 15:47:06 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:51:07 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEASE
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000809144924.19421A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> <005701c00242$a9a90f60$0c6cd626@varisys.com>
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George Holz wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> > Q: Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?
> Standard Ethernet is baseband, i.e. no carrier wave.

<snip>

This is certainly true in the sense that ethernet does not work
like an ADSL modem; however, 100baseT does use 3 level pulse
amplitude modulation.

You still have coaxial ethernet systems in operation??

Regards,

Terry

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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:01:51 EDT
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anti-Gravity secrets revealed by Brazilian Physics Professor]
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In a message dated 08/08/2000 1:23:51 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

<< I am forwarding this from another list since some have expressed
interest.  Maybe Fred and Vince can get $600,000 for their AG
hula hoop experiment?!?>>

Maybe Mills can, someday.  His concept is the only one that might actually 
work.

<<In private email, Prof. De Aquino advises that his first paper was 
peer-reviewed by 36 scientists around the world, and that everything is 
rigorously correct.  A Nobel prize-winner also adds his endorsement.>>

Sure.  Does anyone know the name of even two or three of those 36 scientists? 
 And who is the Nobel prize winner?

<<De Aquino further indicates that he has just 
been awarded a $600,000 grant from the US Department of Energy to validate 
his, and parallel, Soviet work.>>

That sounds like Podkletnov.  Robert Park of the APS wrote in his recent book 
that NASA had announced a $600,000 grant for antigravity research based on 
Podkletnov's ideas.

Did De Aquino get a slice of that pie or did he get a new grant?  Maybe Marc 
Millis, the head of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program would know.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 20:43:50 2000
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: "Energy Amplifier"
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Date:     Thursday 17th August 2000 at 4:00 pm

Place:    Physics Lecture Room 2-15 (second flr)
          University of Western Australia

Speaker:  Dr. G. H. Thompson, Editor of The Australian
          Physicist 1986 &1987.

Title:    The "Energy Amplifier" or correct scientific terminology
          "Accelerator Driven Sub-critical System"

ABSTRACT

The idea was revived by Carlo Rubbia, Nobel Laureate and recently
retired director of CERN:-  A proton accelerator of sufficient
power, now available, bombards suitable target material to produce
neutrons.  These in turn interact with fissile material causing
fission. This interaction is conducted in a subcritical environment
eliminating the possibility of meltdown.  Fission by the fissile
material, mainly thorium, releases vast amounts of energy.  A small
portion of this is required to run the accelerator, the rest
supplies power to the grid in Gigawatt quantities.

Radioactive waste can be added to the fuel and will be transmuted
into stable isotopes. It is estimated that within 60 years of
operating as an industrial power source, all high level nuclear
waste will be eliminated.  Magic yes and if you want further
details come to the talk to hear about one of the most important
developments in physics to-day!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 20:45:39 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Planar Circular Currents
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It is well known that special relativity predicts changes in the observed
field of a particle due to the flattening of the field in the direction of
motion.  This flattening is due to application of the Lorentz contraction
due to relative motion.  This relativistic effect of flattening the
apparent field is called the "pancaking" of the Coulombic field.  It is the
intent here to discuss the effects of pancaking with respect to planar
circular direct currents.

On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert Shadowitz provides the
equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field pancaking as:

   E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2)  (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

If we let b = v^2/c^2 then we can interpret apparent charge Q' to be:

   Q' = Q (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

which can be interpreted to mean apparent charge is reduced to observers in
line with the charge velocity vector and increased as the viewing angle is
increased.

NOTE - it is not standard physics to interpret pancaking as a change in
apparent charge (standard relativity assumes charge is invariant with
velocity) but rather a change in observed field strength, but we should be
able to interpret the pancaking equation for Q' either way.

Consider the model of the atom where the electrons whiz around a nucleus.
Specific electrons present some degree of pancaking from any angle viewed.
In some directions apparent charge is increased and some directions
decreased.  In a non-magnetic medium, the polar orientation of atom
orbitals is mixed in a uniform way due to the orientation of atoms being
mixed in a uniform way.  Upon integration over 3D polar coordinates, one
finds that the average net charge change, according to the pancaking
equation, for randomly oriented atoms and orbitals, is zero.  However, if
some set of orbitals are aligned, say by a magnetic field, or if we have
the case of a planar circular current in a neutral medium, then the average
apparent charge (as viewed from a long enough distance to make the circle
diameter insignificant) does not net out to zero, except at a specific
viewing angle.  As viewed within the plane, pancaking reduces the apparent
charge of charges in motion, and increases the apparent charge of charges
in circular motion as viewed from the poles of the circular motion.

The net apparent charge of a charge moving in a small circle relative to
the distance of the viewer comes from integrating to find the average value
of:

   k(theta,v)  = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

for theta = 0 to 2Pi, where b = v^2/c^2, and then subtracting the average
value from one to obtain the net charge change factor K(v), because if v =
0 then the observed (apparent) charge Q' is the same as the charge Q:

   Q' = Q * 1

If the average value of k(theta,v) is non-zero, when integrated over all
angles theta, for v not 0, then an average apparent net charge exists when
v not 0.

The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by:

    f_avg(x) = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ]

so the value of net charge change factor K(v) = 1 - average over theta of
k(theta,v) is given by:

    K(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ]

which requires solving an elliptic integral of the second kind, and yields
a  net charge:

   Q_net = K(v) Q

where K(v) can be approximately based on the average speed of the electrons.


Note that in the 3D situation the averaging integral equivalent to the
above would be

   [Integral from 0 to Pi] [k(theta) sin(theta) d theta]

because it is necessary to average over theta with a weight of sin(theta)
to account for the surface area involved.  This integral evaluates to one,
thus K(v) evaluates to zero.  However, in the planar version, K(v) does not
average to zero.

The average values k_avg(v) of k(theta,v) for random planar orientations as
viewed from the plane were directly calculated by computer program, thus
producing the incremental force factor:

  K(v)  =  1 - k_avg(v)

over a complete circle, for theta = 0 to 2 Pi.  Here are the results:

  v/c             K(v)

 .999999   0.363371045179493
 .5        6.57845423323069D-02
 .1        2.50470713873419D-03
 .01       2.5000468772296D-05
 .001      2.50000048662713D-07
 .0001     2.50000153911856D-09


These factors indicate the possibility of huge apparent net charges,
especially from electrons moving at the speed of k shell electrons (if such
could be made to move in a planar orbit.).  The innermost electrons of Fe
have an ionization potential of 9277.69 eV, and Ni has 10775.40 eV.  Using
half the ionization potential of Ni as electron kinetic energy we obtain:

   1/2 m_e v^2 = (10775.4 eV)/2 = 8.63 J

           v = 4.35x10^7 m/s

           v = 0.145 c

so more than 0.25 percent of the total charge for such electrons would
appear as net apparent positive charge in the atom, if a sufficiently
strong magnetic field could be applied so as to make K shell orbitals
nearly flat (an astronomical magnitude magnetic field to be sure!)

In order to obtain an exact form of the integral, Mathematica was used to
integrate the pancake function obtaining a finite integral. Unfortunately a
complete elliptic integral of the second kind appears in the solution.

The average value f_avg of any function f(x) is given by:

    f_avg = 1/(b - a) [integral from a to b][ f(x) dx ]

so the value of net charge change factor K_incr(v) = 1 - k_avg is given by:

    K_incr(v) = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ]

Mathematica says:

   [integral from 0 to 2 Pi] [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta]

is given by:

    -(EllipticE[x, b]/(-1 + b)) + (b*Sin[2*x])/(Sqrt[2]*(-1 + b)*
                      Sqrt[2 - b + b*Cos[2*x]])

which, when evaluated from 0 to 2 Pi, is

    -4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1)

where EllipticE[b] is a complete elliptic integral of the second kind. So:


    K(v)  = 1 - 1/(2 Pi - 0) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi][ k(theta) d theta ]

          = 1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b) [integral from 0 to 2 Pi]
                                [ (1 - b sin^2 theta)^(-3/2) d theta]

          =  1 - 1/(2 Pi) (1-b)  (-4(EllipticE[b])/(b-1))

          = 1 - 4/(2 Pi)  EllipticE[b]

    K(v)  = 1 - 2 Pi  EllipticE[v^2/c^2]

or more appropriately:

    K(v) = 1 - 2 Pi  EllipticE[v^2/c^2]

Through use of Mathematica, the following confirming  values of K(v) were
obtained:


                                 Mathematica evaluation of K(v) =
   v/c            K(v)             1 - 2 EllipticE[(v/c)^2]/Pi

 .999999   0.363371045179493         0.363375
 .5        6.57845423323069D-02      0.0657845
 .1        2.50470713873419D-03      0.00250471
 .01       2.5000468772296D-05       0.0000250005
 .001      2.50000048662713D-07      2.5e-7
 .0001     2.50000153911856D-09      2.5e-9


Thus it appears there is some evidence for a predicted net apparent charge,
when viewed in a plane containing the matter and normal to the magnetic
field, in both neutral condensed matter and plasmas, or even magnetron
chambers, if a sufficient magnetic field is present.  The fact that
apparent charge does not manifest in condensed matter might be construed to
confirm the QM view that the "electron is everywhere" in the wave function,
or that it has no specific location until sampled.  There is thus no
radiation from atoms because the orbital electrons do not "move."

Plasma electrons are not so constrained by the QM boundaries as electrons
in atoms though.  The upper bound on the possible effect is less, due to
lower velocities, but still significant.

It should be noted that this rampant speculation so far ignores the effects
of charge acceleration and GR effects.

Now, to evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small.  Given
the first few terms of EllipticE:

  EllipticE[b] = Pi/2 - (Pi b^2)/8 - (3 Pi b^2)/128 + O[b]^3 ...

we can evaluate the integral giving k(b) for b = (v/c)^2, b small:

  K(v) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[b]/Pi

       = 1 - 2 {1/2 - b/8 - 3 b^2/128}

  K(v) =  b/4 + (3/64) (b^2)

which is pretty good, and for many things

  K(v) = b/4

works OK too, or the series

  K(v) =  (1/4) b + (3/64) (b^2) + (5/256) (b^3) + (175/16384) (b^4) + ...

can be used to the degree of accuracy desired.

It is interesting though, that:

    EllipticE[1] = 1

so, a limit to the effect is provided by:

    K(c) = 1 - 2 EllipticE[q]/Pi

         = 1 - 2/Pi = 0.363380227632

Next, it is necessary to consider the SR effects of acceleration.  Let's
assume uniform circular motion, i.e. DC current, in a charge balanced
medium.  It is commonly assumed there is then no induction.  However, it is
often stated that accelerating charges produce fields, so perhaps the
uniform acceleration of charges about the circle produce an exactly
canceling field.  This is an unusual field that uniform charge acceleration
about the circle must produce if it exactly cancels the special
relativistic (SR) Coulomb field of a circle current, which is
non-conservative.  Given the SR Coulombic field pancaking equation, b =
v^2/c^2:

   k(theta) = (1 - b)/(1 - b sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

At theta = 90 deg we have:

   k(Pi/2) = (1 - b)(1 - b)^(-3/2)

            = (1 - b)^(-1/2) = gamma(v)

which represents an apparent charge increase for every charge as viewed
from a point on the major axis and distant from the circle.  The charge
motion, from the polar vantage point,  is viewed from the "side" at
approximately 90 degrees.

At theta = 0 deg. we have:

   K(v) = b/2 + ...

which represents an apparent charge decrease.  Using q' to designate the
apparent charge observed for an actual current bearing charge q, this gives
the following picture from the perspective of the velocity dependent SR
field component:



          q' = q * gamma      (q' > q)


              (-)

               N
               |
               |
  (+)      o   |   x     (+)            q' = q * K(v)      (q' < q)
               |
               |
               S
            Magnetic
             Poles

              (-)


          o - current out of page (electrons into page)
          x - current into page (electrons out of page)
         (+) - positive net apparent charge
         (-) - negative net apparent charge

      Fig. 1 - Diagram of SR based Coulombic field


Note that, because the proposed current is carried by electrons moving
within a positive medium, that the field is positive to the sides.  If the
current were carried by positive charge, the SR Coulombic field would be
reversed.

In *Classical Electromagnetism via Relativity,* Plenum Press, 1968, W. G.
V. Rosser develops (p. 272 ff) a proof that the field from a closed
circuit, ignoring radiation fields, is zero.   Rosser utilizes the
following SR based equations for his proof:

   E = Ev + Ea

   Ev = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3) [r - r u/c][1 - v^2/c^2]

   Ea = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3 c^2) {r x ([r - r u/c] x [a])}

   s = [r - (r dot u)/c]

where r, u, and a are vectors.

Rosser only actually proves his case for a specific circuit which has sharp
bends, but assumes the bends are not significant because the accelerations
involved are not large (due to the fact the electron velocity is slow in
wires I assume.)  This seems to be a flawed approach and also as immaterial
to high velocity situations, like those found in stars.  Further, Rosser's
proof has the glaring limitation that it only shows a netting to zero in
the plane of his special circuit, which consists of two (radial from the
point of observation) straight lines and two arcs centered on the point of
observation.

Even if we assume Rosser's proof to be correct in general, to the level of
accuracy he produces, and even if we assume the apparent charge to net to
zero in the plane of the circuit, a non-conservative field appears when we
look at the ramifications of the Ea equation in the polar regions of Fig.
1.

Rosser shows that the formula for Ea implies:

   Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2)  [a_perp]/[r]

where [a_perp] is the component vector of vector [a] that is perpendicular
to vector [r]. Using scalar centripital acceleration

   a = u^2/r

to estimate the Coulombic field at points on the central polar axis distant
from the current ring, we obtain:


   Ea ~= -q/(4 Pi e0 c^2)  (u^2/r)/(r)

       = -q/(4 Pi e0 r^2)  (u^2/c^2)

and we obtain an apparent charge factor of -u^2/c^2 = -b due to the
acceleration component of the polar Coulombic field.  Now, clearly , -b
does not exactly, at every v offset:

   gamma(v) = (1-b)^(-1/2)

obtained using the standard SR field pancaking equation.  If this is true,
then a field is predicted which is not energy conservative.  A path from
the polar region to a distant point on the plane, to a near point on the
plane, and back to the polar region, gains a fixed increment of energy.

The above background discussion suggests the following questions:

(1) Is there a major flaw in the above derivation of apparent net charge
from a planar circular current as viewed distantly in that plane?

(2) What is the appropriate equation to use for induced field due to charge
acceleration?  Is the following correct and exact?

  Ea = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3 c^2) {r x ([r - r u/c] x [a])}

(3) More generally, what equation should be used to exactly calculate the
force of one particle on another, when in relative motion?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 21:34:00 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: A tiny Jet of water... What is the difference
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David writes:
>But, yes, the compound vortex is made by making a whirlpool from the current 
>input at the perimeter, beneath the water, and the vortex is compounded by 
>outake at the drain, connected by the feedback loop.
>
>Our tests show it takes the least amount of feedback to make the best 
>whirlpool with a tiney vortex in the center.  Our tests show the torus donut 
>is intact with milk squirt tests.  The milk is not drawn towards the center.
>
>The Big Wheel rides along with the current in the torus donut, it is not a 
>turbine.  The torus donut is gravity driven by the wobble of the whirlpool.  
>Children say they understand it, it is very simple.

David,

Have you ever seen the work done here by Scott Little and others on the
Potapov Device?  Is that similar, do you think?  It has a small feedback path.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 21:54:14 2000
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Subject: Re: "Energy Amplifier"
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At 11:44 AM 8/10/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>A proton accelerator of sufficient
>power, now available, bombards suitable target material to produce
>neutrons.  These in turn interact with fissile material causing
>fission. This interaction is conducted in a subcritical environment
>eliminating the possibility of meltdown.  Fission by the fissile
>material, mainly thorium, releases vast amounts of energy.  A small
>portion of this is required to run the accelerator....

Hi John, it's that last bit that I'd like to see an analysis of.  Usually
the cross-section for accelerator-induced reactions is so tiny that they
are many orders of magnitude below break-even.  Can you attend the meeting
and fill us in on the details?


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> Maybe Fred and Vince can get $600,000 for their AG
> hula hoop experiment?!?
>
Don't need it, Terry, the torque on the hula hoop, if it is trying
to flip over will make a torque amplifier "Gravity Motor".

All Vince has to do is put a drive shaft on it, and phase
the pulse inputs.   :-)

With a one meter diameter "hoop" at 1.0 amperes there
should be ~ 250 pounds of gravity- electrogravity pull
trying to torque it over.

It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out how to
make a 300 horsepower motor out of that, does it, Hank?    :-)

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  9 23:58:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "Energy Amplifier"
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> Title:    The "Energy Amplifier" or correct scientific terminology
>           "Accelerator Driven Sub-critical System"

>> The idea was revived by Carlo Rubbia, Nobel Laureate and recently
> retired director of CERN:-  A proton accelerator of sufficient
> power, now available, bombards suitable target material to produce
> neutrons.  These in turn interact with fissile material causing
> fission. This interaction is conducted in a subcritical environment
> eliminating the possibility of meltdown.  Fission by the fissile
> material, mainly thorium, releases vast amounts of energy.  A small
> portion of this is required to run the accelerator, the rest
> supplies power to the grid in Gigawatt quantities.

The proton beam energy is on the order of a GeV, and the target is a high
atomic number element, such as Pb. At this energy, each proton into a
neutron-rich target generates several (>10) neutrons by nuclear spallation
reactions. Most of these neutrons then go on to induce fission in the
surrounding fissile material. The fission releases neutrons, too, which help
increase the total number of fissions per incident beam proton. Each fission
releases "only" about 200 MeV, so you need lots of fissions per proton to
keep the accelerator running (remember: thermal conversion of fission heat
into electricity is about 35% and accelerator efficiency about 50%) and still
have enough left over to have energy for sale.

> Radioactive waste can be added to the fuel and will be transmuted
> into stable isotopes. It is estimated that within 60 years of
> operating as an industrial power source, all high level nuclear
> waste will be eliminated.  Magic yes and if you want further
> details come to the talk to hear about one of the most important
> developments in physics to-day!

It is hard to win in a viable way at rad waste amelioration by transmutation
by neutrons. True, all those neutrons flying around can transmute certain
radioactive isotopes into stable ones. However, they also transmute many
stable isotopes into radoioactive ones. In some cases the radioactive isotope
transmuted into a stable one gets transmuted into a new radioactive isotope
again! Therefore, the amelioration might work for only a few rad isotopes,
and one has to constantly shuffle waste in and out of the reactor and
separate and remove stable transmuted product. The large amount of chemical
processing leaves radioactive byproducts which must be dealt with. And, the
machine must be built from among those few materials that do not activate
seriously under neutron bombardment.






=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 00:03:31 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
> >      So were's the energy going? As I told David, breaking up an
> >expensive element like palladium into cheap elements like nickle and
> >iron makes an interesting physics experiment, but it doesn't make any
> >economic sense.
>
>That depends upon how much energy you get out of the palladium. Enriched
>uranium is expensive, but it makes economic sense to fission a small
>fraction of it and then throw the rest away (bury it underground). Even
>gold could be used as nuclear fuel at a profit if you got enough energy out
>of it.
>
>I think U costs $25 to $50 per kg, which is much cheaper than Pd or Au, but
>that is probably not for the enriched form, and it does not take into
>account the cost of clean up or disposal. See the Uranium Institute study
>http://www.uilondon.org/sym/1997/pool.htm
>
>- Jed

Thank you for the reply Jed, but you ignored my main question, were 
is the energy going, and how do we capture it?

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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>Knuke
>	As I understand it, the efficiency of the device is very low. This
>is probably the reason it is not used in auto airconditioners. With your
>mechanical skills, you could probably build one with irrigation parts from
>Home Depot or what ever. I started to look into it once, but got diverted
>and never got back to it. By the way I installed new batteries in the
>Tropica last weekend, and drove it to school today. I am keeping my
>fingers crossed that I get home again.
>
>Hank

Hi Hank,

Yeah, I know.  The efficiency is low (I don't have any real numbers), and
also you would need to maintain a good, steady speed, whereas a regular air
conditioner would work reliably even in a parked car or in slow city
traffic.  If you consider however, that a regular air conditioner is powered
by the IC engine in almost all vehicles, and that the IC engine itself is
also of such low efficiency, it may not be too much different.  There may be
a market for a car vortex tube for people who either would not normally buy
air conditioning because of the cost or because of the environmental
reasons.  Over the road, long haul drivers might use it during steady, long
trips. 

Glad to hear you got your EV back on the road!  I didn't want to say
anything negative about it, but after reading the webpage on it, it looked
like there were some definite hurdles to be cleared in the engineering of
the electronics before it was really reliable.  Losing the batteries seemed
to be a major hassle and expense.  I come from a marine engineer background,
and I thought it might be good to see how they were doing things differently
from the EV crowd to see if there were any improvements that might help.

There are a number of things that could be possibly improved if you look at
the marine way of doing electronics.  I get a catalog from West Marine every
year as a wishbook/tutorial.  They have a website that you might find
interesting.

www.westmarine.com

Jed might find them of interest as well, as they have quite a large offering
of the latest in commercially available GPS devices, and navigation
programs.  All this stuff is ruggedized for the most demanding environments.

I reported on a company earlier this year I think, that was making Absorbant
Glass Mat batteries for use in vehicles, but they came in non-standard
cases, and they didn't give the prices on their website.  Whenever I see
that last bit, I always figure that the company is charging way too much.
West Marine is now offering AGM batteries and the prices are not bad at all.
This was the first year that they have offered them, so they are still
getting the field reports, but it is something to follow.  They are much
lighter, can hold more charge per pound, they have 60% less lead, and
probably most importantly for EV's, they are more tolerant of fast discharge
and charge cycles.  You still need to have the most modern chargers that
will protect them from overcharging, but that feature has become pretty
commonplace in charging equipment these days.

They also offer quite a lot of weatherproof connectors, heavier cables,
etc.. for engineers who are wiring their own boats.  Another thing that I
saw was a lamp made of a cluster of LED's that only drew .06 amps on 12V.
There is a lot of interesting stuff in there.

Have fun with the Tropica!  Jed thinks thinks the styling is way to hot for
him, but I think that if EV's are going to be successful, they've got to be
hotter looking than what Detroit spews out.  Just because a car is
environmentally friendly doesn't mean that it has to look like a dorkmobile.
In fact, it should be just the opposite.  I think that even I could get
lucky driving a Tropica!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 03:14:02 2000
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Jed wrote:
>Perhaps the JC Penny model is as good, and the Chinese are better at low
>cost mass production than the South Africans. I think I saw a Chinese made
>black and white television for sale at the grocery store the other day for
>$20. (Maybe it was $30?) It is hard to believe they pay the shipping costs
>across the Pacific for that kind of money.
>
>- Jed

In Seattle, there was a 99 cent store across the street from my house where
I mainly bought tobacco, but they were crammed to the ceiling with all kinds
of weird, cheap stuff from the Pac Rim.  I needed some clamps though at one
time for a project, and decided to wade through there just to see if they
had any.  I found that they had vise grips that were pretty decent for a
buck a pair!  I picked up 5 pairs, and gave them to the girl at the
register.  I told her that even if they were made totally with slave labor
that it would still cost more to make them than what they were selling them
for, and she shook her head and said "Yeah, and you are the only person that
comes in here that never complains about high prices.  People still
complain!"  It's weird.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 03:22:54 2000
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: "Energy Amplifier"
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>Hi John, it's that last bit that I'd like to see an analysis of.  Usually
>the cross-section for accelerator-induced reactions is so tiny that they
>are many orders of magnitude below break-even.  Can you attend the meeting
>and fill us in on the details?

Sorry Scott, I missed it.  I badly need an alarm clock on my desk or
something!  And it was one that I wanted to go to.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 03:50:55 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 03:25:48 PDT
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Michael writes:

>Have you ever seen the work done here by Scott Little and others on the 
>Potapov Device?  Is that similar, do you think?  It has a small feedback 
>path.

No, I don't think I have.  I know there are several vortex concepts similar 
and electromagnetic overunity devices that approach this from the gravity 
perspective.  The difference is the whirlpool and the torus donut, not to be 
confused with the toroid flow of the simple vortex, that has a donut shape.

But I keep at it trying to unturn any possible data I am not aware of and 
would be most interested in looking at this to see if it is about vorticies 
or whirlpools.

All indications are the approach of Whirlpower to gravity on the horizontal 
axis related to the dual radial arm pattern is not the same as the approach 
to gravity on the vertical axis related to the corkscrew downward spiral.

I am most interested in seeing what you mention.  Most replies I get here 
have no substance.  Thank you for a real reply.

David



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 04:18:45 2000
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August 10, 2,000

Vortex,

I believe China, with its economics more capitalist oriented in recent years, is
a country driven by the communist doctrine. And China has not disavowed
communism or the original Communist Manifesto: they just made it look flexible.
I am certainly no expert on this but I believe one of the basic movements within
communism is belief in the ultimate superiority of its form of government and
society. Toward achieving this end, any means can be used, so they (communists
in the past) said.
A tactic tool often used is 'one step backward, two steps forward' type of
strategy. So it goes for massive exports products based on unimaginatively (for
us) cheap labor costs. This helps destroy or weaken greatly, ultimately, the
human resources, social values, and industry upon which capitalistic (us and
others) are based on.
As to what form of government, economy, or society is ultimately correct, (or
wins)  --------- 'Capitalism' and 'free' society has not won yet by a long shot.

-AK-

Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Jed wrote:
> >Perhaps the JC Penny model is as good, and the Chinese are better at low
> >cost mass production than the South Africans. I think I saw a Chinese made
> >black and white television for sale at the grocery store the other day for
> >$20. (Maybe it was $30?) It is hard to believe they pay the shipping costs
> >across the Pacific for that kind of money.
> >
> >- Jed
>
> In Seattle, there was a 99 cent store across the street from my house where
> I mainly bought tobacco, but they were crammed to the ceiling with all kinds
> of weird, cheap stuff from the Pac Rim.  I needed some clamps though at one
> time for a project, and decided to wade through there just to see if they
> had any.  I found that they had vise grips that were pretty decent for a
> buck a pair!  I picked up 5 pairs, and gave them to the girl at the
> register.  I told her that even if they were made totally with slave labor
> that it would still cost more to make them than what they were selling them
> for, and she shook her head and said "Yeah, and you are the only person that
> comes in here that never complains about high prices.  People still
> complain!"  It's weird.
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm


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At 06:24 PM 8/10/00 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:


>Sorry Scott, I missed it.  I badly need an alarm clock on my desk or
>something!  And it was one that I wanted to go to.

hmmmm...the time difference between here and Australia must be bigger than 
I thought!  From the info you gave, it looks like the talk is still 6 or 7 
days in the future.

>Date:     Thursday 17th August 2000 at 4:00 pm
>
>Place:    Physics Lecture Room 2-15 (second flr)
>           University of Western Australia
>
>Speaker:  Dr. G. H. Thompson, Editor of The Australian
>           Physicist 1986 &1987.
>
>Title:    The "Energy Amplifier" or correct scientific terminology
>           "Accelerator Driven Sub-critical System"

Meanwhile, Michael Schaffer gave a nice description of this type of 
reaction which makes it sound sorta plausible.  Perhaps it would be a 
practical energy source if you could make use of naturally-occurring Th as 
a fuel.  AFAIK, Th can't be used to fuel a reactor so, basically, it just 
opens up a new source of energy for us.  One point still worries me, 
Michael: just how feasible is it to build a Gev proton accelerator that has 
an overall efficiency of even 10%?  It seems like all the support systems 
(vacuum pumps, cooling, controls, etc.) would really cut into the overall 
efficiency.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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David writes:
>No, I don't think I have.  I know there are several vortex concepts similar 
>and electromagnetic overunity devices that approach this from the gravity 
>perspective.  The difference is the whirlpool and the torus donut, not to be 
>confused with the toroid flow of the simple vortex, that has a donut shape.
>
>But I keep at it trying to unturn any possible data I am not aware of and 
>would be most interested in looking at this to see if it is about vorticies 
>or whirlpools.
>
>All indications are the approach of Whirlpower to gravity on the horizontal 
>axis related to the dual radial arm pattern is not the same as the approach 
>to gravity on the vertical axis related to the corkscrew downward spiral.
>
>I am most interested in seeing what you mention.  Most replies I get here 
>have no substance.  Thank you for a real reply.
>
>David

Hi David,

If you go to www.earthtech.org you can see the tests that Scott did here on
the Vortex.  There was quite a lot of discussion here at the time as well,
as you may well imagine.  The interesting thing about the Potapov device was
that the original report from the US military observer claimed that the
cavitation noise was so loud that it had to be kept in a separate building.
He said that it sounded like a machine gun being fired, which is consistent
with some cavitators.  He observed it at the Energia Lab in Russia.

Later, Jed and Gene bought a bunch of them for various people to test, and
it was obvious that some major parts were missing from the ones that they
had bought.  The tests proved negative for Scott, but Scott modified his as
best he could from photos taken, and it is quite likely that they were not
exactly like what Potapov was originally working with.  Potapov was pretty
reticent about it.  Chris Tinsley was also involved in a test effort that
didn't pan out, and I forget why, but I think it was time related.  They
couldn't get the calorimeter built and the test completed in the necessary
timeframe, and Chris had to go back to England.  Jed can correct me if that
is not exactly correct.  This was 5 or 6 years ago.

Potapov himself came to the US for some tests at LANL, and couldn't get it
to work either, but he blamed it on the pump not being correct, which is
quite possible.  He didn't bring a pump and had to buy one here.  He may
have mismatched it, I don't know.  He was allotted only a short time to do
the test, and he just couldn't get it together.  All in all, it was a very
strange situation.  If you look at the design though, it is a flat whirlpool
with drain pipe in the center, and on the verticle downpipe, there is a bent
piece of smaller diameter pipe that brings water from the lower portion back
up to the top of the whirlpool part.  You'll see it on Earthtech's website.
Let us know what you think.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 07:33:40 2000
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At 08:30 AM 8/10/00 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:


>If you go to www.earthtech.org you can see the tests that Scott did here on
>the Vortex.

I just realized that those reports came from the dark ages before digital 
cameras, etc. so I put together a few photos and words to give folks a 
better idea of the physical nature of the Potapov device.  Look at:

http://www.earthtech.org/yusmar/descrip.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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From: "Pierre.CLAUZON" <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: "Energy amplifier"
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:35:42 +0200
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C002F1.685D6920
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear all,
As a stubborn retired physicist on fast reactors, I would like to give =
my comments on the "energy amplifier" or "accelerator driven subcritical =
system".=20
In order to get a suitable power level, you must have a high level of =
subcriticality , since the power level is proportional to S/(1-k), S =
being the level of the neutron source (accelerator driven) and k the =
multiplication factor.
If ,for example, k is equal to 0.99 in order to get a good power level, =
you cannot avoid a careful safety analysis, leading to build a control =
rod system, to have a good containment for possible abnormal =
events..etc..In fact, this is a reactor, quasi identical to the present =
ones...with, in addition, a new and expensive device the =
"accelerator"..What would be the economy of this system?
The use of the Thorium cycle is considered because of producing less =
transuranides. But this is also the case for proven reactors using the =
U233 and Thorium cycle...
What a shame for the French Jospin government to have stopped =
SUPERPHENIX for political reasons! Experiments were ready,in particular, =
to assess the capability of SUPERPHENIX and fast reactors in general to =
burn transuranides...

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C002F1.685D6920
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As a stubborn retired physicist on fast =
reactors, I=20
would like to give my comments on the "energy amplifier" or "accelerator =
driven=20
subcritical system". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In order to get a suitable power level, =
you must=20
have a high level of subcriticality , since the power level is =
proportional to=20
S/(1-k), S being the level of the neutron source (accelerator driven) =
and k the=20
multiplication factor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If ,for example, k is equal to 0.99 in =
order to get=20
a good power level, you cannot avoid a careful safety analysis, leading =
to build=20
a control rod system, to have a good containment for possible abnormal=20
events..etc..In fact, this is a reactor, quasi identical to the present=20
ones...with, in addition, a new and expensive device the =
"accelerator"..What=20
would be the economy of this system?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The use of the Thorium cycle is =
considered because=20
of producing less transuranides. But this is also the case for proven =
reactors=20
using the U233 and Thorium cycle...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What a shame for the French Jospin =
government to=20
have stopped SUPERPHENIX for political reasons! Experiments were =
ready,in=20
particular, to assess the capability of SUPERPHENIX and fast reactors in =
general=20
to burn transuranides...</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C002F1.685D6920--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 08:29:05 2000
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		 <3.0.6.32.20000810114406.0080a100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
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Scott Little wrote:

> AFAIK, Th can't be used to fuel a reactor...

The best idea I have heard of for using Thorium comes from Alvin Radkowsky,
ref:
"More power to thorium?"  The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists --
September/October 1997
 By John S. Friedman. To paraphrase this and a related article,

Radkowsky is an 81 year old nuclear scientist with a mission to create a "new
era of nuclear power" based on electricity generated from thorium-fueled
reactors. (This article is 3 yrs old - so by now A.R. may have have been
transmuted by the big reactor in the sky). His concept has been borrowed and
expanded by others in the post cold war ear to provide two very different
goals.

He and his successors invented--at least on paper--a fuel core for light-water
reactors that uses and disposes of weapons plutonium [from the former USSR and
others] by employing (suitably altered) Pu from SALT decommissioning as the
necessary fissile component in reactors that uses over 95% thorium as fuel.
There will be enough Pu available to fuel 100-300 reactors.

Almost all of the world's 400-plus power reactors rely on uranium fuel rather
than thorium even though thorium is more plentiful than lead and has an
potential "in quantity" cost that is up to 20 times less than uranium (and
less than lead even). Natural uranium is 99.3 percent uranium 238, which
cannot sustain a chain reaction, nor can thorium. But U also contains 0.7
percent uranium 235, a fissile isotope that can sustain chain reaction. Most
power reactors operate with slightly enriched uranium--typically, about 4
percent uranium 235.

Since thorium lacks a fissile isotope but it is "fertile" when bombarded with
neutrons, it must be enriched with a few per cent of a fissile component. Over
the decades, several nations experimented with thorium-uranium fuel, but the
economics of it never seemed to work, in part because most thorium-cycle
schemes relied on reprocessing and the United States adamantly opposes the
recycling of nuclear fuel because of proliferation concerns and its intent to
remain a monopoly player in the supply of enriched U. Today, only India
remains a strong proponent of the thorium fuel cycle...

But would it be cost effective? Frank von Hippel, a Princeton physicist, has
doubts. He lauds Radkowsky for "radically simplifying the fuel process," but
adds that the price for conventional uranium fuel is now so low that there is
little economic incentive to adopt a new
fuel concept. "No one," says Marvin Miller, a Massachusetts Institute of
Technology physicist and proliferation expert, "will buy a new line of
reactors based on nonproliferation [or even plutonium reduction issues]
alone."


> One point still worries me... just how feasible is it to build a Gev proton
> accelerator that has
> an overall efficiency of even 10%?  It seems like all the support systems
> (vacuum pumps, cooling, controls, etc.) would really cut into the overall
> efficiency.

The Gev proton beam is another brain-dead, big budget, big science greed play
on the part of puppet, so-called well-meaning scientists to part the taxpayer
from his hard earned buck$.

Scott, since you have personally built a neutron producing "fusor" yourself,
as have many others on a low budget - I doubt if the concept of using this
relatively simple technology (Farnsworth Fusor) to supply the "makeup"
neutrons in a subcritical scheme has totally escaped your careful insight ;-}

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 08:43:34 2000
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Michael writes:
>If you look at the design though, it is a flat whirlpool with drain pipe in 
>the center, and on the verticle downpipe, there is a bent
piece of smaller diameter pipe that brings water from the lower portion back 
up to the top of the whirlpool part.  You'll see it on Earthtech's website.
>Let us know what you think.

Definately, NOT a whirlpool.  I see no wide whirlpool or anyway for there to 
be one, or description of what a whirlpool is.  Swirl is not whirl.

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

That's a whirlpool.

You folks need to realize a vortex is not a whirlpool.

http://www.whirlpower.cc

Those are whirlpools and the drawings and descriptions are of what a 
whirlpool is and how to make one.

Scott writes:
>
>I just realized that those reports came from the dark ages before digital
>cameras, etc. so I put together a few photos and words to give folks a
>better idea of the physical nature of the Potapov device.  Look at:
>
>http://www.earthtech.org/yusmar/descrip.html

Scott,

Nothing to do with a whirlpool.  Whirlpools are unknown to science.  WE have 
built the first whirlpools ever bult by man in all recorded history.

But we are amateurs and get no respect.  I called you guys on this long ago 
and got no answer.

But luckily, the BBC is now doing a special on amateurs.

If you guys have just been deleting my stuff you missed a lot.

David

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Okay,

You "real" scientists have had your time, money, prestige, clout, waved your 
degrees like flags of credibiltiy.

Nothing!

Now it is our turn.

The BBC is asking me if there are anymore amateur scientists that I know of 
that they can put on their special.  Truthfully I don't know of any but 
thought I'd ask all my lists if any of you non-scientists have a project 
going.

"Real" scientists need not apply.

History shows all the good stuff comes from outside not inside of science.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 09:00:56 2000
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 <3.0.6.32.20000810114406.0080a100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
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At 08:27 AM 8/10/00 -0700, Jones Beene wrote:


>Scott, since you have personally built a neutron producing "fusor" yourself,
>as have many others on a low budget - I doubt if the concept of using this
>relatively simple technology (Farnsworth Fusor) to supply the "makeup"
>neutrons in a subcritical scheme has totally escaped your careful insight ;-}

ahh....errr....now that you mention it, Jones, that DOES sound like an 
intriguing idea...:)  However:

At 05:35 PM 8/10/00 +0200, Pierre.CLAUZON wrote:

>In order to get a suitable power level, you must have a high level of 
>subcriticality , since the power level is proportional to S/(1-k), S being 
>the level of the neutron source (accelerator driven) and k the 
>multiplication factor.
>If ,for example, k is equal to 0.99 in order to get a good power level, 
>you cannot avoid a careful safety analysis, leading to build a control rod 
>system, to have a good containment for possible abnormal events..etc..In 
>fact, this is a reactor, quasi identical to the present ones...with, in 
>addition, a new and expensive device the "accelerator"..What would be the 
>economy of this system?

These statements seem quite reasonable to me (I know essentially nothing 
about reactors). If you have to balance the thing right on the edge of 
criticality to get it to perform reasonably well, it certainly might end up 
being more expensive than conventional reactors.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 09:33:37 2000
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Subject: Metal debris caused Concord explosion
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This illustrates the weakness of high-performance fossil-fuel based
transportation systems. (I say "high performance" because transportation
systems such as railroads are not this vulnerable.)

- Jed


FOX News

Strip of Metal Damaged Concorde Tire, Causing Fuel Leak, Fire, Explosion 

Thursday, August 10, 2000   

A strip of metal on the runway "most likely" punctured a tire on the
Concorde that crashed shortly after takeoff two weeks ago, investigators in
Paris said Thursday. 

After the tire was punctured, nearly nine pounds of debris apparently was
turned into projectiles that caused a fuel leak and a fire, according to a
statement from the Ministry of Transport's investigation unit. 

The piece of metal did not belong to the Air France Concorde and
investigators said they don't know how it got on the runway. . . .


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 09:57:14 2000
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Hi Horace,

Forgetting for a moment the correctness of your mathematical derivation, wouldn't
a consequence of the general idea, i.e. apparent net charge derived from a planar
circular current, lead to an OU device through nanotechnology?

I guess it would involve depositing a film of perhaps only one or a few atomic
layers, which is presently not quite feasible on a commercial basis but in the
near future, who knows?

Also, wouldn't there be some direct correspondence with your derivation to the
mechanics of HTSC, i.e. electron pairing occurring in a very thin copper oxide
plane?

For some time, I have been toying with the notion that it might be possible
through a combination of HTSC, quantum tunneling, and nanotechnology - to exploit
the slight magnetic pole preference that polarized charges possess in order to
achieve a true "negative resistance" regime. Usable current might be derived from
an extremely long series linkage of quantum diodes but only if resistive losses
could be minimized. It would involve designing chips with millions/cm2 of
series-linked tunneling diodes together with a planar field magnet array with
millions/cm2 of alternating poles - each facing the diode array in such a manner
so that the slight voltage bias of each junction is continuously augmented.

Of course the cooling losses required to achieve HTSC would probably outweigh the
current produced - but what about in outer space?

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 10:21:17 2000
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Planar Circular Currents
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:14:18 -0500
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> Of course the cooling losses required to achieve HTSC would probably
outweigh the
> current produced - but what about in outer space?

Actually, cooling in outer space is more difficult than in a
medium...without the medium, convection of heat away cannot occur. The only
way heat can escape is through radiation losses, or conduction to another
part of the device (i.e., a heat sink) You'd need a big heat sink with a
large surface area to get rid of much heat in a vacuum. That's why the
general statement that space is cold is really not correct...space has no
temperature per se, there is nothing there to have a temperature. That, of
course, doesn't change the fact that if your spacecraft is in direct
sunlight, it will fry. :)

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 10:21:32 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEAS
	E
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 	I am VERY curious about the specific nature of the 
> Ethernet signal
> itself.
> 
> 	Q:	Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?

It's like a telephone line.  Only one computer can talk on it at a time, and
it uses a collision detection mechanism (CSMA/CD) to prevent more than one
computer from accessing the line at the same time.  As you can imagine a
great deal of what network engineers do is try to spread out this load over
a sufficient number of lines (called segments).  I believe the signal itself
is a modulated carrier wave.

> 
> 	Q:	What is the nature of T 10 and T 100 ?  
> 
> 		I may have the terms wrong.  One may be 10 meg bits per
> second and one may be 100 meg bits per second.

You got it.  There's also 1000BaseT (Gigabit) ethernet.

> 
> 	Q: Are there any good references you can steer me to?

See:

http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ito_doc/index.htm
http://wwwhost.ots.utexas.edu/ethernet/faq.html

> 
> 	Q:	How far can the signals be sent and what are the ins and
> outs and dos and don'ts of the signals, the wire and the methodology.

100 m per segment is the rule of thumb (beyond that you need to amplify with
a bridge or a router).  See the web site references for more info.

Regards,
Steven Florek

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 10:43:21 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Planar Circular Currents
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:41:13 PDT
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Space is fluid and flat, not void and curved.  If space were void, "nothing 
there", a rocket would have no effect in space.

Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on curved space.


>From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: Planar Circular Currents
>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:14:18 -0500
>
> > Of course the cooling losses required to achieve HTSC would probably
>outweigh the
> > current produced - but what about in outer space?
>
>Actually, cooling in outer space is more difficult than in a
>medium...without the medium, convection of heat away cannot occur. The only
>way heat can escape is through radiation losses, or conduction to another
>part of the device (i.e., a heat sink) You'd need a big heat sink with a
>large surface area to get rid of much heat in a vacuum. That's why the
>general statement that space is cold is really not correct...space has no
>temperature per se, there is nothing there to have a temperature. That, of
>course, doesn't change the fact that if your spacecraft is in direct
>sunlight, it will fry. :)
>
>--Kyle R. Mcallister
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 12:09:23 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:42:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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All,

I can't believe this topic has gone on so long,
and how did it get back to the main list?

Ok, enough theorizing.  Let's discuss how they actually perform, not what the 
pet theories say.

I found someone who actually flew one of these.  A friend of mine worked as a 
transfer pilot, flying planes that have expired certifications to repair 
facilities.  (Or museums, or boneyards)  So he got to fly a wide variety of 
planes.  As such he has firsthand experience in the handling charateristics of 
different designs.

So I quote, "They are a pig to handle, especially with any kind of load".

I asked if this was at both low & high speeds, and he said something about 
takeoffs and landings being the most critical time so low speed characteristic 
are more important.  Which is when lifting bodies are at their worst.

Call him, he could give you more details, or maybe tell you of others who have 
flown them.  Chris Stehling (614) 846-0195, he doesn't have an e-mail address.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
Briggs XLNsystems.com


>> Dear Mr. Jones
>>
>> I would like to compliment you on your expertise in dealing with Mr. Lajoie.
>> You have obviously, seriously studied the aircrash web-site and the facts
>> contained therein, whereas Mr. Lajoie has ignored them in a manner that
>> typifies those in industry and government who refuse to think.  Your
>> rebuttal of Mr. Lajoie's preposterous arguments is highly professional and I
>> admire your perspicacity.

>Yes, about as professional as claiming that everyone from DoD secrataries
>and the NTSB and ICAO, airline pilots and passengers, as well as bankers,
>are all conspiring against you.

>I have noticed that Jone's arguments have nothing to do with the safety
>claims offered in the website, and are contrary to sound aerodynamic
>principles.

>You care to share your view on high speed landings where Vapproach >>
>Vstall?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 12:18:12 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:20:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: same laws for mechanics and themodynamics?
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Knuke
	Look up the Optima batteries. These are what is used in some of
the fastest electric drags. Also look up Bolder Batteries. Very high
current capability. I am using US
Batteries 125's, replacing the Trojan 125's I had for two and a half
years. They are cheaper, and slightly more rugged, and I can use a "Bad
Boy Charger", consisting of a Variac and 4 diodes. Ordinary Lead acid is
by far and a way the cheapest way to go these days. I don't have the time
to screw around with the car enough currently. I use it for a 16 mile
commuting vehicle, to school and back. Look up www.killacycle.com for a
very exciting motorcycle using the Bolder batteries, 340 of them.

	The car is fun, just for the remarks it gets. Yesterday an
18-wheeler pulled up next to me as I was parking, and said "Wanna trade?"
I told him no, I couldn't afford the gas. I explained about the car
being electric and all, and he suggested putting a large fan in front
connected to a generator, so I would never have to plug it in. I tried to
explain about conservation of energy, but he didn't quite get it. There is
at least one Tropica running in Florida, keep your eyes open

Regards,
Hank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 12:31:52 2000
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Subject: Re: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEASE
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Terry wrote:
> This is certainly true in the sense that ethernet does not work
> like an ADSL modem; however, 100baseT does use 3 level pulse
> amplitude modulation.
-
You're right that 100baseT is certainly pushing the definition of
baseband. Just when does a clock  become a carrier?
> 
> You still have coaxial ethernet systems in operation??
-
I think we still have a few thin coax links in the system
connecting some of the modems.
The reliability of twisted pair has been so much better
at installations we made for customers that we recently 
rewired our office for 100baseT. 
Regards,
George

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 12:35:19 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:30:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
Cc: "Chalmers H. Goodlin" <goodlink mindspring.com>
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>All,
>
>I can't believe this topic has gone on so long

***{Unless the server is acting up again, the last message to vortex-l on
this topic was posted on July 2, which is more than a month ago. If
anything more recent appeared, I didn't receive it. --MJ}***
,
>and how did it get back to the main list?

***{You put it there, as far as I can tell. --MJ}***

>
>Ok, enough theorizing.  Let's discuss how they actually perform, not what the
>pet theories say.
>
>I found someone who actually flew one of these.  A friend of mine worked as a
>transfer pilot, flying planes that have expired certifications to repair
>facilities.  (Or museums, or boneyards)  So he got to fly a wide variety of
>planes.  As such he has firsthand experience in the handling
>charateristics of
>different designs.
>
>So I quote, "They are a pig to handle, especially with any kind of load".

***{If he flew the thing to a repair facility, he obviously flew it there
empty. Thus he would know exactly zilch about its flying characterisitcs
when loaded. Hence all this statement indicates is a strong bias in favor
of the conventional airframe and a willingness to claim more than his facts
indicate. Moreover, if he flew the thing to a repair facility, it obviously
needed repairs, so his experience with its flying characteristics would be
meaningless even if he were not biased. --MJ}***

>
>I asked if this was at both low & high speeds, and he said something about
>takeoffs and landings being the most critical time so low speed
>characteristic
>are more important.  Which is when lifting bodies are at their worst.

***{Pure rubbish, as is to be expected, given the apparent bias indicated
by his earlier statements. --MJ}***

>
>Call him, he could give you more details, or maybe tell you of others who
>have
>flown them.  Chris Stehling (614) 846-0195, he doesn't have an e-mail address.

***{I have carboned Mr. Goodlin, the chairman of the Burnelli corporation.
He can talk to the fellow and report back to us, if he wishes. I haven't
time to do it myself, due to other and more pressing concerns. --MJ}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 13:25:45 2000
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> All,
> 
> I can't believe this topic has gone on so long,
> and how did it get back to the main list?
> 
> Ok, enough theorizing.  Let's discuss how they actually perform, not what the 
> pet theories say.
> 
> I found someone who actually flew one of these.  A friend of mine worked as a 
> transfer pilot, flying planes that have expired certifications to repair 
> facilities.  (Or museums, or boneyards)  So he got to fly a wide variety of 
> planes.  As such he has firsthand experience in the handling charateristics of 
> different designs.
> 
> So I quote, "They are a pig to handle, especially with any kind of load".

It should handle quite sluggishly; it's designed that way. 
 
> I asked if this was at both low & high speeds, and he said something about 
> takeoffs and landings being the most critical time so low speed characteristic 
> are more important.  Which is when lifting bodies are at their worst.

Yep.

> Call him, he could give you more details, or maybe tell you of others who have 
> flown them.  Chris Stehling (614) 846-0195, he doesn't have an e-mail address.
> 
> Bill
> webriggs concentric.net
> Briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 13:34:38 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{If he flew the thing to a repair facility, he obviously flew it there
> empty. 

You don't know that. It is not obvious. But it's also a moot point.

> Thus he would know exactly zilch about its flying characterisitcs
> when loaded.

If they are sluggish when empty, loading them down isn't 
going to make them less so!  :-D 

> Hence all this statement indicates is a strong bias in favor
> of the conventional airframe and a willingness to claim more than his facts
> indicate.

And claims of a fashist capitalist conspiracy don't indicate bias?

> Moreover, if he flew the thing to a repair facility, it obviously
> needed repairs, so his experience with its flying characteristics would be
> meaningless even if he were not biased. --MJ}***

It appears that you are unaware that airplanes get a lot of preventive
maintence. Every so many hours, you gotta do a check. C-Check, D-check...
you almost end up taking the airplane apart at times. 

An airplane can be flying just fine when going into a repair facility.
You're just prone to make assumptions that support your own bias.

> >I asked if this was at both low & high speeds, and he said something about
> >takeoffs and landings being the most critical time so low speed
> >characteristic
> >are more important.  Which is when lifting bodies are at their worst.
> 
> ***{Pure rubbish, as is to be expected, given the apparent bias indicated
> by his earlier statements. --MJ}***

Yeah, right. And you're not biased? HA!
 
> >Call him, he could give you more details, or maybe tell you of others who
> >have
> >flown them.  Chris Stehling (614) 846-0195, he doesn't have an e-mail address.
> 
> ***{I have carboned Mr. Goodlin, the chairman of the Burnelli corporation.
> He can talk to the fellow and report back to us, if he wishes. I haven't
> time to do it myself, due to other and more pressing concerns. --MJ}***


"I'm gonna tell!!!" ROTFL!

BTW, anyone read about the new proposed Boeing lifting wing? Big
commercial puppy. One concern is that it's a big theater like passenger
area and most people can't get windows. 

I read that in a magazine, so it's not inside info or the like. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 16:31:33 2000
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Message-ID: <399339ED.CAB97702 austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> Okay,
> 
> You "real" scientists have had your time, money, prestige, clout, waved your
> degrees like flags of credibiltiy.
> 
> Nothing!
> 
> Now it is our turn.
> 
> The BBC is asking me if there are anymore amateur scientists that I know of
> that they can put on their special.  Truthfully I don't know of any but
> thought I'd ask all my lists if any of you non-scientists have a project
> going.
> 
> "Real" scientists need not apply.
> 
> History shows all the good stuff comes from outside not inside of science.

That's a totally idiotic statement.  For a simple example of just how
stupid what you said really is, just consider the medium you're using to
express your ignorance.  Do you think it was put together by bumbling
fools without the slightest regard for the laws of physics?
Think again.

Do you think that the astounding advances made in biotechnology were
made by used car salesmen?
Think again.

I can understand your frustration with your not being able to get your
ideas accepted, but you need to understand that when you present nothing
but ideas and then don't present anything to back them up they're just
ideas. They're not even theories.

Let me give you an example of a theory nicely proposed: 

For many years it has been known that an electron in orbit should be
radiating energy, causing its orbital velocity to decrease, which should
eventually cause the electron to spiral (in steps) into the nucleus of
its parent atom. However, this doesn't happen.  Why?

Hal Puthoff proposed that zero point energy was exquisitely replacing
the energy being lost by the electron's acceleration and presented his
theory, along with its mathematical underpinnings to his peers, for
review.  He was published, and his work now stands as a reference for
all of us to use and enjoy.

You, on the other hand, ...

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 17:20:08 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:18:43 EDT
Subject: I'm backfor a while
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I dropped of this list about two years ago.  I was getting to much direct 
mail that interfered with my normal communications.  I would like a call up 
list of science physics fusion.  I can skip items that don't interest me. 
E-SCRIBE only would work well with me. 

Last September Dr. Miley invited me to speak at UIUC.  I'm not a real 
scientist either, however, I went back to school and studied contemporary 
teachings.  I took some effort and I believe that my ideas are sound.  At 
UIUC I presented my "Constants of Motion Paper".  The basis for my paper is 
that there is no gamma radiation because the strong nuclear forces exceed the 
range of the columbic in a Bose condensate.  Dr. Miley has invited me present 
a short 20 minute presentation at the ANS meeting this fall.  Many are 
opposed to this and our efforts may be blocked.  This is what I intend to 
present.  I would like to discuss it.  I believe it to be very import.

http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/ans.txt

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/ans.txt">http://members.aol.com/fz
nidarsic/ans.txt</A> 

Frank Znidarsic PE

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 19:18:41 2000
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Your paper says "A Bose condensation of electrons is central to this line of
reasoning"

You can't get a Bose condensation of electrons because electrons are
fermions, not
Bosons. I think you mean "A bose condensation of deuterons ...."


----- Original Message -----
From: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: I'm backfor a while


> I dropped of this list about two years ago.  I was getting to much direct
> mail that interfered with my normal communications.  I would like a call
up
> list of science physics fusion.  I can skip items that don't interest me.
> E-SCRIBE only would work well with me.
>
> Last September Dr. Miley invited me to speak at UIUC.  I'm not a real
> scientist either, however, I went back to school and studied contemporary
> teachings.  I took some effort and I believe that my ideas are sound.  At
> UIUC I presented my "Constants of Motion Paper".  The basis for my paper
is
> that there is no gamma radiation because the strong nuclear forces exceed
the
> range of the columbic in a Bose condensate.  Dr. Miley has invited me
present
> a short 20 minute presentation at the ANS meeting this fall.  Many are
> opposed to this and our efforts may be blocked.  This is what I intend to
> present.  I would like to discuss it.  I believe it to be very import.
>
> http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/ans.txt
>
>  <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/ans.txt">http://members.aol.com/fz
> nidarsic/ans.txt</A>
>
> Frank Znidarsic PE
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 19:41:18 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:  Ethernet Is there a carrier... or Not?   What is being transmitted PLEASE
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	Dear G.,

	Is there a carrier?   I am trying to understand the signal...
please.

			John



On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, George Holz wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
> > Q: Is it a carrier wave which is then modulated?
> Standard Ethernet is baseband, i.e. no carrier wave.
> 
> > Q: What is the nature of T 10 and T 100 ?  
> > 
> > I may have the terms wrong.  One may be 10 meg bits per
> > second and one may be 100 meg bits per second.
> The 10 and 100 are in fact the bit rate in Mb per second.
> The T stands for the twisted pair nature of the actual
>  physical wiring for this variation. 
>  10 base T  uses 2 twisted pairs at 10 Mb/sec.
>  The older style 10 base 2 uses a single coax line at 10 Mb/sec.
>  We have these three types of connections installed at our office.
>  > 
> > Q: Are there any good references you can steer me to?
> Since you don't have internet access, a library or a local
> bookstore should have Ethernet protocol descriptions in
> books about networking. The basic protocol is CDMA
> (collision detection multiple access) with fixed packet lengths.
> When collisions of data packets are detected, the data is
> retransmitted after a delay.
> > 
> > Q: How far can the signals be sent and what are the ins and
> > outs and dos and don'ts of the signals, the wire and the methodology.
> About 100 meters for 10 base T without hubs or repeaters. Each
> physical implementation has different distance capabilities. 
> -
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 19:55:26 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: NO Carrier???: Ethernet signal questions Q:  What is being transmitted PLEASE
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	Dear Folks,

	Does this mean there are square and-or rectangular waves sent
along the coax or twisted pair?  What it the magnitude of the signal... 1
volt?  10 Volt?

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, George Holz wrote:

> 
> Terry wrote:
> > This is certainly true in the sense that ethernet does not work
> > like an ADSL modem; however, 100baseT does use 3 level pulse
> > amplitude modulation.
> -

	Amplitude modulation of WHAT?


> You're right that 100baseT is certainly pushing the definition of
> baseband. Just when does a clock  become a carrier?
> > 
> > You still have coaxial ethernet systems in operation??
> -
> I think we still have a few thin coax links in the system
> connecting some of the modems.
> The reliability of twisted pair has been so much better
> at installations we made for customers that we recently 
> rewired our office for 100baseT. 
> Regards,
> George
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 20:35:32 2000
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Scott wrote:
>
>hmmmm...the time difference between here and Australia must be bigger than 
>I thought!  From the info you gave, it looks like the talk is still 6 or 7 
>days in the future.
>
>>Date:     Thursday 17th August 2000 at 4:00 pm

Yes! you are right!  I thought it was this Thursday but apparently
there is no talk this Thursday.  So I might be able to get along
after all and now I'll have some good questions to ask from the
emails that have come in.   Thanks Guys


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 20:45:16 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Re: I'm backfor a while
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In a message dated 8/10/00 10:19:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lajoie eskimo.com writes:

<< You can't get a Bose condensation of electrons because electrons are
 fermions, not Bosons. I think you mean "A bose condensation of deuterons 
...."
  >>
Two electrons couple together to from a Boson. It has to do with spin.  Two 
1/2 spin fermions couple to make a spin one Boson.   Nothing new here, except 
for the fact that it takes place at room temperatures.   Deuterons is to 
restrictive.  Cold fusion takes place in with hydrogen and with the heavy 
elements.  What is new is that the electron condensation (Leptonic material) 
effects the nucleus (Baryonic material.)  It appears that the one mega hertz 
meter stimulation makes this happen.  I believe through the phase collimation 
of the nuclear and electronic wavefunctions.

Does anyone have a clue of the velocity of the hydrogen electrons in nickel?  
 Is the velocity thermal with energy at fractions of an ev or is it Fermi 
with an energy at several ev's?   Why?  I beleive the velocity to be thermal 
but can't prove it.  Scott, what do you think.  

  Cenlani has found superconductivity in Denuterated Palladium.  I didn't 
mention this in my paper because I had to keep it under 900 words.

 Lets' Keep going.
Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 20:50:59 2000
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 PLEASE
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear G.,
>
>         Is there a carrier?   I am trying to understand the signal...
> please.
>

No.  It's Manchester encoded data-- strictly time domain --all digital--
It's a self clocking  pulse stream where clocks
are voltage transitions  and binary data are other transitions between the
clocks similar to what's read
off of older disk drives, tape drives.

Best Regards,
Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 20:58:06 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:52:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
Cc: "Chalmers H. Goodlin" <goodlink mindspring.com>
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>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> ***{If he flew the thing to a repair facility, he obviously flew it there
>> empty.
>
>You don't know that. It is not obvious. But it's also a moot point.

***{Before you take your pickup in to the repair shop, you always load it
up to capacity with lumber, cement, and rebar, right? --MJ}***

>
>> Thus he would know exactly zilch about its flying characterisitcs
>> when loaded.
>
>If they are sluggish when empty, loading them down isn't
>going to make them less so!  :-D

***{You are dropping the context. To refresh your memory, here is what the
guy supposedly said:

"They are a pig to handle, especially with any kind of load."

The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy when
loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!

Now, obviously, Briggs will get together with the guy again, and the
revised version of the story will seem perfectly plausible--because, of
course, there is *no way* there could be any bias operating here, right?
That, at any rate, will be yours, and his, and Briggs' interpretation. And,
of course, as outsiders, there is *no way* that any of the rest of us can
verify or falsify their statements, once they get their stories together.
After all, this all happened in the past, and thus the facts are private
information known only to Briggs' source. Thus those of us who are
interested in rationally evaluating his story are constrained to do it one
way, and one way only: by noting the obvious incongruities in the *initial*
version of the story, and tossing it in the trash, where it belongs.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>> Hence all this statement indicates is a strong bias in favor
>> of the conventional airframe and a willingness to claim more than his facts
>> indicate.
>
>And claims of a fashist capitalist conspiracy don't indicate bias?

***{In order to make a case for bias, you need to cite incongruities in a
person's statements, thereby rendering it implausible that they arise due
to logic and evidence. That is what I have done vis-a-vis the tale
supposedly told by Bill Briggs' friend, and it is what you utterly failed
to do with respect to my comments about the "fascist aviation cartel." In
fact, your attempt to argue against that line of reasoning was one of the
most farcical demonstrations of ineptitude that I have ever had the
misfortune to witness on the internet. Yet now, having stuffed those
inconvenient facts into your *memory hole*, you are now accusing *me* of
bias! What a laugh. --MJ}***

>
>> Moreover, if he flew the thing to a repair facility, it obviously
>> needed repairs, so his experience with its flying characteristics would be
>> meaningless even if he were not biased. --MJ}***
>
>It appears that you are unaware that airplanes get a lot of preventive
>maintence. Every so many hours, you gotta do a check. C-Check, D-check...
>you almost end up taking the airplane apart at times.

***{It appears that you need to work on your reading comprehension. Here is
what Briggs said the guy does:

>A friend of mine worked as a transfer pilot, flying planes
>that have expired certifications to repair
>facilities. (Or museums, or boneyards.)

In my view, a man who claims to have flown a *loaded* cargo aircraft with
an *expired certification* to a repair facility, a museum, or a boneyard,
gives a strong appearance of playing it fast and loose with the facts. You,
of course, want to believe his statements, because you made a miserable
jackass out of yourself last month, when raving on endlessly and ignorantly
about this subject, and you desperately want to salvage a bit of dignity.
Thus you view this fellow as an oracle of truth, sent down by God almighty
to pull your chestnuts out of the fire. However, it won't work. He is just
another guy with an opinion, and his story reeks from the let-go. Now let's
give this tiresome subject a well-deserved rest, OK?

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>An airplane can be flying just fine when going into a repair facility.
>You're just prone to make assumptions that support your own bias.

***{The way the tale was worded renders it highly unlikely that your "can
be" was satisfied, and, in any case, there are massive incongruities in the
initial version of this tale--so many, in fact, that only a biased
person--e.g., you--would be willing to accept it at face value. --MJ}***

>
>> >I asked if this was at both low & high speeds, and he said something about
>> >takeoffs and landings being the most critical time so low speed
>> >characteristic
>> >are more important.  Which is when lifting bodies are at their worst.
>>
>> ***{Pure rubbish, as is to be expected, given the apparent bias indicated
>> by his earlier statements. --MJ}***
>
>Yeah, right. And you're not biased? HA!

***{I gave reasons for my suspicions of bias. You, however, as usual,
merely make unpleasant noises. --MJ}***

>
>> >Call him, he could give you more details, or maybe tell you of others who
>> >have
>> >flown them.  Chris Stehling (614) 846-0195, he doesn't have an e-mail
>>address.
>>
>> ***{I have carboned Mr. Goodlin, the chairman of the Burnelli corporation.
>> He can talk to the fellow and report back to us, if he wishes. I haven't
>> time to do it myself, due to other and more pressing concerns. --MJ}***
>
>"I'm gonna tell!!!" ROTFL!

***{Rave on, fool. The fact of the matter is that I have neither the time
nor the interest to engage in an endless, pointless, pissing contest with
you. Now go off and pick a fight with someone else. --MJ}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 21:09:12 2000
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Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy when
>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!

Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it with all 
the
spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier. 

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 21:22:11 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: Re: I'm backfor a while
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After reading the latest issue of IE I see that may others are looking 
towards a condensate for answers.    A central question is, "How can we get a 
Bose condensate at above room temperatures?"  Conventional theory describes 
conduction level electrons coupling together.  These electrons are part of 
the solid and more at Fermi velocities (at a few ev)  An analogy helps. The 
electrons are like two fast jet aircraft during refueling.  The refueling 
hose represents the phonon that couples them together.  Any turbulence 
(thermal disturbance) rips the hose the holds the aircraft together.  
Similarly, in a Cooper pair of electrons the thermal disturbance breaks the 
phonon that holds the electron pair together.

I suspect that the electrons associated with the dissolved hydrogen are not 
part of the solid.  Why? Because they move in and out of it by diffusion.  
They may move at slower thermal velocities (fractions of an ev)  Another 
analogy helps.  The electrons are now moving at the lower velocity of an 
ocean surfer.  Surfers tend to ride a wave in groups.  Bigger waves help the 
process.  Thermal electrons ride the thermal disruptions in the lattice in a 
similar way.  Thermal energy tends to couple, not disrupt, the electron 
pairs.  How can we prove that the electrons associated with dissolved 
hydrogen and deuterium are thermal? What do you think?

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 21:41:11 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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>In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
>> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
>>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
>>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy when
>>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
>>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
>
>Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it with all
>the
>spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.

***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*. If you
load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes, of
course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of those
risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around pilons--but
the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***

>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>  Las Vegas Nevada
>  702-254-2122
>  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
>  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow
>Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 22:48:36 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:47:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "Energy Amplifier"
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Scott Little <little earthtech.org> wrote:

> Meanwhile, Michael Schaffer gave a nice description of this type of 
> reaction which makes it sound sorta plausible.  Perhaps it would be a 
> practical energy source if you could make use of naturally-occurring Th as 
> a fuel.  AFAIK, Th can't be used to fuel a reactor so, basically, it just 
> opens up a new source of energy for us.  

Yes, part of the idea is to use natural Th or U.

> One point still worries me, 
> Michael: just how feasible is it to build a Gev proton accelerator that has
> an overall efficiency of even 10%?  It seems like all the support systems 
> (vacuum pumps, cooling, controls, etc.) would really cut into the overall 
> efficiency.

I don't know what the parasitic losses, like pumps, etc., are. I have heard
that large particle accelerators, like the ones high energy physicists use,
are about 50% efficient. This might only be for the RF power tubes and their
coupling to the particle beam. 50% sounds like a plausible number for this,
given that the individual processes are each highly efficient.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 10 23:44:30 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Whirlpower on the BBC
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:41:29 PDT
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I'm not going to argue with El Presidente but we all know the story, all the 
new stuff is scoffed at by science, said to be impossible; it always comes 
from the outside.

About Hal and ZPE, just the beginning of what the flat space teams are 
saying.  We are returning to the cosmological constant.  All energy is ZPE, 
all energy of motion comes from gravity.  Just like Einstein said when he 
was a poor nobody dropout, outside of science.

He got hypnotized, hornswoggled, brainwashed, of all common sense when he 
became part of science.

It makes no sense whatsoever man has not built and tested whirlpools before 
and less sense you highly intelligent folks don't have the common sense to 
see it.  But high intelligence has never been known for having common sense, 
so I guess it makes perfect sense.  Truely the Emperor wears no clothes.

Been talking to the BBC more today, asked for my number, they want to talk.  
I guess there are no amateur scientists with projects going on this list?  
If anyone knows of any like me on other lists stuggling to have their work 
recognized, tell them to contact me.  The Olympics are so much better than 
pro sports.  It is about heart, the passion, not money.  The love of money 
is the root of all evil.

And Whirlpower is a real theory.  It follows a logical pattern of thought 
and leads to a testable conclusion.  That's a real theory.  Theorists 
propose, scientists dispose.  Any data on whirlpools built and tested in a 
scientific manner will dispose of the Whirlpower Declaration, not 
withsanding, the Declaration stand as valid and credible.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Remarks on General Relativity
Remarks on General Relativity

Michael Fowler=20
University of Virginia


Physics 252 Home Page
Link to Previous Lecture


In Einstein's little book Relativity: the Special and the General =
Theory, he introduces general relativity with a parable. He imagines =
going into deep space, far away from gravitational fields, where any =
body moving at steady speed in a straight line will continue in that =
state for a very long time. He imagines building a space station out =
there - in his words, "a spacious chest resembling a room with an =
observer inside who is equipped with apparatus." Einstein points out =
that there will be no gravity, the observer will tend to float around =
inside the room.=20


But now a rope is attached to a hook in the middle of the lid of this =
"chest" and an unspecified "being" pulls on the rope with a constant =
force. The chest and its contents, including the observer, accelerate =
"upwards" at a constant rate. How does all this look to the man in the =
room? He finds himself moving towards what is now the "floor" and needs =
to use his leg muscles to stand. If he releases anything, it accelerates =
towards the floor, and in fact all bodies accelerate at the same rate. =
If he were a normal human being, he would assume the room to be in a =
gravitational field, and might wonder why the room itself didn't fall. =
Just then he would discover the hook and rope, and conclude that the =
room was suspended by the rope.=20


Einstein asks: should we just smile at this misguided soul? His answer =
is no - the observer in the chest's point of view is just as valid as an =
outsider's. In other words, being inside the (from an outside =
perspective) uniformly accelerating room is physically equivalent to =
being in a uniform gravitational field. This is the basic postulate of =
general relativity. Special relativity said that all inertial frames =
were equivalent. General relativity extends this to accelerating frames, =
and states their equivalence to frames in which there is a gravitational =
field. This is called the Equivalence Principle.


The acceleration could also be used to cancel an existing gravitational =
field - for example, inside a freely falling elevator passengers are =
weightless, conditions are equivalent to those in the unaccelerated =
space station in outer space.=20


It is important to realize that this equivalence between a gravitational =
field and acceleration is only possible because the gravitational mass =
is exactly equal to the inertial mass. There is no way to cancel out =
electric fields, for example, by going to an accelerated frame, since =
many different charge to mass ratios are possible.=20


As physics has developed, the concept of fields has been very valuable =
in understanding how bodies interact with each other. We visualize the =
electric field lines coming out from a charge, and know that something =
is there in the space around the charge which exerts a force on another =
charge coming into the neighborhood. We can even compute the energy =
density stored in the electric field, locally proportional to the square =
of the electric field intensity. It is tempting to think that the =
gravitational field is quite similar - after all, it's another inverse =
square field. Evidently, though, this is not the case. If by going to an =
accelerated frame the gravitational field can be made to vanish, at =
least locally, it cannot be that it stores energy in a simply defined =
local way like the electric field.=20


We should emphasize that going to an accelerating frame can only cancel =
a constant gravitational field, of course, so there is no accelerating =
frame in which the whole gravitational field of, say, a massive body is =
zero, since the field necessarily points in different directions in =
different regions of the space surrounding the body.=20

Some Consequences of the Equivalence Principle
Consider a freely falling elevator near the surface of the earth, and =
suppose a laser fixed in one wall of the elevator sends a pulse of light =
horizontally across to the corresponding point on the opposite wall of =
the elevator. Inside the elevator, where there are no fields present, =
the environment is that of an inertial frame, and the light will =
certainly be observed to proceed directly across the elevator. Imagine =
now that the elevator has windows, and an outsider at rest relative to =
the earth observes the light. As the light crosses the elevator, the =
elevator is of course accelerating downwards at g, so since the flash of =
light will hit the opposite elevator wall at precisely the height =
relative to the elevator at which it began, the outside observer will =
conclude that the flash of light also accelerates downwards at g. In =
fact, the light could have been emitted at the instant the elevator was =
released from rest, so we must conclude that light falls in an initially =
parabolic path in a constant gravitational field. Of course, the light =
is traveling very fast, so the curvature of the path is small! =
Nevertheless, the Equivalence Principle forces us to the conclusion that =
the path of a light beam is bent by a gravitational field.


The curvature of the path of light in a gravitational field was first =
detected in 1919, by observing stars very near to the sun during a solar =
eclipse. The deflection for stars observed very close to the sun was 1.7 =
seconds of arc, which meant measuring image positions on a photograph to =
an accuracy of hundredths of a millimeter, quite an achievement at the =
time.


One might conclude from the brief discussion above that a light beam in =
a gravitational field follows the same path a Newtonian particle would =
if it moved at the speed of light. This is true in the limit of small =
deviations from a straight line in a constant field, but is not true =
even for small deviations for a spatially varying field, such as the =
field near the sun the starlight travels through in the eclipse =
experiment mentioned above. We could try to construct the path by having =
the light pass through a series of freely falling (fireproof!) =
elevators, all falling towards the center of the sun, but then the =
elevators are accelerating relative to each other (since they are all =
falling along radii), and matching up the path of the light beam through =
the series is tricky. If it is done correctly (as Einstein did) it turns =
out that the angle the light beam is bent through is twice that =
predicted by a na=EFve Newtonian theory.=20


What happens if we shine the pulse of light vertically down inside a =
freely falling elevator, from a laser in the center of the ceiling to a =
point in the center of the floor? Let us suppose the flash of light =
leaves the ceiling at the instant the elevator is released into free =
fall. If the elevator has height h, it takes time h/c to reach the =
floor. This means the floor is moving downwards at speed gh/c when the =
light hits.=20


Question: Will an observer on the floor of the elevator see the light as =
Doppler shifted?


The answer has to be no, because inside the elevator, by the Equivalence =
Principle, conditions are identical to those in an inertial frame with =
no fields present. There is nothing to change the frequency of the =
light. This implies, however, that to an outside observer, stationary in =
the earth's gravitational field, the frequency of the light will change. =
This is because he will agree with the elevator observer on what was the =
initial frequency f of the light as it left the laser in the ceiling =
(the elevator was at rest relative to the earth at that moment) so if =
the elevator operator maintains the light had the same frequency f as it =
hit the elevator floor, which is moving at gh/c relative to the earth at =
that instant, the earth observer will say the light has frequency f(1 + =
v/c) =3D f(1+gh/c2), using the Doppler formula for very low speeds.=20


We conclude from this that light shining downwards in a gravitational =
field is shifted to a higher frequency. Putting the laser in the =
elevator floor, it is clear that light shining upwards in a =
gravitational field is red-shifted to lower frequency. Einstein =
suggested that this prediction could be checked by looking at =
characteristic spectral lines of atoms near the surfaces of very dense =
stars, which should be red-shifted compared with the same atoms observed =
on earth, and this was confirmed. This has since been observed much more =
accurately. An amusing consequence, since the atomic oscillations which =
emit the radiation are after all just accurate clocks, is that time =
passes at different rates at different altitudes. The US atomic standard =
clock, kept at 5400 feet in Boulder, gains 5 microseconds per year over =
an identical clock almost at sea level in the Royal Observatory at =
Greenwich, England. Both clocks are accurate to one microsecond per =
year. This means you would age more slowly if you lived on the surface =
of a planet with a large gravitational field. Of course, it might not be =
very comfortable.=20


General Relativity and the Global Positioning System
Despite what you might suspect, the fact that time passes at different =
rates at different altitudes has significant practical consequences. An =
important everyday application of general relativity is the Global =
Positioning System. A GPS unit finds out where it is by detecting =
signals sent from orbiting satellites at precisely timed intervals. If =
all the satellites emit signals simultaneously, and the GPS unit detects =
signals from four different satellites, there will be three relative =
time delays between the signals it detects. The signals themselves are =
encoded to give the GPS unit the precise position of the satellite they =
came from at the time of transmission. With this information, the GPS =
unit can use the speed of light to translate the detected time delays =
into distances, and therefore compute its own position on earth by =
triangulation.=20
But this has to be done very precisely! Bearing in mind that the speed =
of light is about one foot per nanosecond, an error of 100 nanoseconds =
or so could, for example, put an airplane off the runway in a blind =
landing. This means the clocks in the satellites timing when the signals =
are sent out must certainly be accurate to 100 nanoseconds a day. That =
is one part in 1012. It is easy to check that both the special =
relativistic time dilation correction from the speed of the satellite, =
and the general relativistic gravitational potential correction are much =
greater than that, so the clocks in the satellites must be corrected =
appropriately. (The satellites go around the earth once every twelve =
hours, which puts them at a distance of about four earth radii. The =
calculations of time dilation from the speed of the satellite, and the =
clock rate change from the gravitational potential, are left as =
exercises for the student.) For more details, see the lecture by Neil =
Ashby here.=20

In fact, Ashby reports that when the first Cesium clock was put in orbit =
in 1977, those involved were sufficiently skeptical of general =
relativity that the clock was not corrected for the gravitational =
redshift effect. But -- just in case Einstein turned out to be right -- =
the satellite was equipped with a synthesizer that could be switched on =
if necessary to add the appropriate relativistic corrections. After =
letting the clock run for three weeks with the synthesizer turned off, =
it was found to differ from an identical clock at ground level by =
precisely the amount predicted by special plus general relativity, =
limited only by the accuracy of the clock. This simple experiment =
verified the predicted gravitational redshift to about one percent =
accuracy! The synthesizer was turned on and left on.=20



Physics 252 Home Page
Link to Next Lecture


Copyright =A92000 Michael Fowler=20


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<H2>Remarks on General Relativity<BR></H2>
<P><I>Michael Fowler</I> <BR><I>University of Virginia<BR>
<P></I><A href=3D"home.html">Physics 252 Home Page</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"rel_el_mag.html">Link to Previous Lecture</A><BR>
<P>In Einstein's little book <I>Relativity: the Special and the General=20
Theory</I>, he introduces general relativity with a parable. He imagines =
going=20
into deep space, far away from gravitational fields, where any body =
moving at=20
steady speed in a straight line will continue in that state for a very =
long=20
time. He imagines building a space station out there - in his words, "a =
spacious=20
chest resembling a room with an observer inside who is equipped with =
apparatus."=20
Einstein points out that there will be no gravity, the observer will =
tend to=20
float around inside the room. <BR>
<P>But now a rope is attached to a hook in the middle of the lid of this =
"chest"=20
and an unspecified "being" pulls on the rope with a constant force. The =
chest=20
and its contents, including the observer, accelerate "upwards" at a =
constant=20
rate. How does all this look to the man in the room? He finds himself =
moving=20
towards what is now the "floor" and needs to use his leg muscles to =
stand. If he=20
releases anything, it accelerates towards the floor, and in fact all =
bodies=20
accelerate at the same rate. If he were a normal human being, he would =
assume=20
the room to be in a gravitational field, and might wonder why the room =
itself=20
didn't fall. Just then he would discover the hook and rope, and conclude =
that=20
the room was suspended by the rope. <BR>
<P>Einstein asks: should we just smile at this misguided soul? His =
answer is no=20
- the observer in the chest's point of view is just as valid as an =
outsider's.=20
In other words, <I>being inside the (</I>from an outside perspective<I>) =

uniformly accelerating room is physically equivalent to being in a =
uniform=20
gravitational field</I>. This is the basic postulate of general =
relativity.=20
Special relativity said that all inertial frames were equivalent. =
General=20
relativity extends this to accelerating frames, and states their =
equivalence to=20
frames in which there is a gravitational field. This is called the=20
<I>Equivalence Principle</I>.<BR>
<P>The acceleration could also be used to cancel an existing =
gravitational field=20
- for example, inside a freely falling elevator passengers are =
weightless,=20
conditions are equivalent to those in the unaccelerated space station in =
outer=20
space. <BR>
<P>It is important to realize that this equivalence between a =
gravitational=20
field and acceleration is only possible because the gravitational mass =
is=20
exactly equal to the inertial mass. There is no way to cancel out =
electric=20
fields, for example, by going to an accelerated frame, since many =
different=20
charge to mass ratios are possible. <BR>
<P>As physics has developed, the concept of fields has been very =
valuable in=20
understanding how bodies interact with each other. We visualize the =
electric=20
field lines coming out from a charge, and know that something is there =
in the=20
space around the charge which exerts a force on another charge coming =
into the=20
neighborhood. We can even compute the energy density stored in the =
electric=20
field, locally proportional to the square of the electric field =
intensity. It is=20
tempting to think that the gravitational field is quite similar - after =
all,=20
it's another inverse square field. Evidently, though, this is not the =
case. If=20
by going to an accelerated frame the gravitational field can be made to =
vanish,=20
at least locally, it cannot be that it stores energy in a simply defined =
local=20
way like the electric field. <BR>
<P>We should emphasize that going to an accelerating frame can only =
cancel a=20
<I>constant</I> gravitational field, of course, so there is no =
accelerating=20
frame in which the whole gravitational field of, say, a massive body is =
zero,=20
since the field necessarily points in different directions in different =
regions=20
of the space surrounding the body.=20
<H3>Some Consequences of the Equivalence Principle</H3>
<P>Consider a freely falling elevator near the surface of the earth, and =
suppose=20
a laser fixed in one wall of the elevator sends a pulse of light =
horizontally=20
across to the corresponding point on the opposite wall of the elevator. =
Inside=20
the elevator, where there are no fields present, the environment is that =
of an=20
inertial frame, and the light will certainly be observed to proceed =
directly=20
across the elevator. Imagine now that the elevator has windows, and an =
outsider=20
at rest relative to the earth observes the light. As the light crosses =
the=20
elevator, the elevator is of course accelerating downwards at <I>g</I>, =
so since=20
the flash of light will hit the opposite elevator wall at precisely the =
height=20
relative to the elevator at which it began, the outside observer will =
conclude=20
that the flash of light also accelerates downwards at <I>g</I>. In fact, =
the=20
light could have been emitted at the instant the elevator was released =
from=20
rest, so we must conclude that light falls in an initially parabolic =
path in a=20
constant gravitational field. Of course, the light is traveling very =
fast, so=20
the curvature of the path is small! Nevertheless, <I>the Equivalence =
Principle=20
forces us to the conclusion that the path of a light beam is bent by a=20
gravitational field</I>.<BR>
<P>The curvature of the path of light in a gravitational field was first =

detected in 1919, by observing stars very near to the sun during a solar =

eclipse. The deflection for stars observed very close to the sun was 1.7 =
seconds=20
of arc, which meant measuring image positions on a photograph to an =
accuracy of=20
hundredths of a millimeter, quite an achievement at the time.<BR>
<P>One might conclude from the brief discussion above that a light beam =
in a=20
gravitational field follows the same path a Newtonian particle would if =
it moved=20
at the speed of light. This is true in the limit of small deviations =
from a=20
straight line in a constant field, but is not true even for small =
deviations for=20
a spatially varying field, such as the field near the sun the starlight =
travels=20
through in the eclipse experiment mentioned above. We could try to =
construct the=20
path by having the light pass through a series of freely falling =
(fireproof!)=20
elevators, all falling towards the center of the sun, but then the =
elevators are=20
accelerating relative to each other (since they are all falling along=20
<I>radii</I>), and matching up the path of the light beam through the =
series is=20
tricky. If it is done correctly (as Einstein did) it turns out that the =
angle=20
the light beam is bent through is twice that predicted by a na=EFve =
Newtonian=20
theory. <BR>
<P>What happens if we shine the pulse of light vertically <I>down</I> =
inside a=20
freely falling elevator, from a laser in the center of the ceiling to a =
point in=20
the center of the floor? Let us suppose the flash of light leaves the =
ceiling at=20
the instant the elevator is released into free fall. If the elevator has =
height=20
<I>h</I>, it takes time <I>h</I>/<I>c</I> to reach the floor. This means =
the=20
floor is moving downwards at speed <I>gh</I>/<I>c</I> when the light =
hits. <BR>
<P><I>Question</I>: Will an observer on the floor of the elevator see =
the light=20
as Doppler shifted?<BR>
<P>The answer has to be no, because inside the elevator, by the =
Equivalence=20
Principle, conditions are identical to those in an inertial frame with =
no fields=20
present. There is nothing to change the frequency of the light. This =
implies,=20
however, that to an outside observer, stationary in the earth's =
gravitational=20
field, the frequency of the light <I>will</I> change. This is because he =
will=20
agree with the elevator observer on what was the initial frequency <I>f =
</I>of=20
the light as it left the laser in the ceiling (the elevator was at rest =
relative=20
to the earth at that moment) so if the elevator operator maintains the =
light had=20
the same frequency <I>f</I> as it hit the elevator floor, which is =
moving at=20
<I>gh</I>/<I>c</I> relative to the earth at that instant, the earth =
observer=20
will say the light has frequency <I>f</I>(1 + <I>v</I>/<I>c</I>) =3D<I>=20
f</I>(1+<I>gh</I>/<I>c</I><SUP>2</SUP>), using the Doppler formula for =
very low=20
speeds. <BR>
<P>We conclude from this that light shining downwards in a gravitational =
field=20
is shifted to a higher frequency. Putting the laser in the elevator =
floor, it is=20
clear that light shining upwards in a gravitational field is red-shifted =
to=20
lower frequency. Einstein suggested that this prediction could be =
checked by=20
looking at characteristic spectral lines of atoms near the surfaces of =
very=20
dense stars, which should be red-shifted compared with the same atoms =
observed=20
on earth, and this was confirmed. This has since been observed much more =

accurately. An amusing consequence, since the atomic oscillations which =
emit the=20
radiation are after all just accurate clocks, is that<I> time passes at=20
different rates at different altitudes</I>. The US atomic standard =
clock, kept=20
at 5400 feet in Boulder, gains 5 microseconds per year over an identical =
clock=20
almost at sea level in the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, England. Both =
clocks=20
are accurate to one microsecond per year. This means you would age more =
slowly=20
if you lived on the surface of a planet with a large gravitational =
field. Of=20
course, it might not be very comfortable.=20
<P>
<H3>General Relativity and the Global Positioning System</H3>Despite =
what you=20
might suspect, the fact that time passes at different rates at different =

altitudes has significant practical consequences. An important =
<I>everyday=20
</I>application of general relativity is the Global Positioning System. =
A GPS=20
unit finds out where it is by detecting signals sent from orbiting =
satellites at=20
precisely timed intervals. If all the satellites emit signals =
simultaneously,=20
and the GPS unit detects signals from four different satellites, there =
will be=20
three relative time delays between the signals it detects. The signals=20
themselves are encoded to give the GPS unit the precise position of the=20
satellite they came from at the time of transmission. With this =
information, the=20
GPS unit can use the speed of light to translate the detected time =
delays into=20
distances, and therefore compute its own position on earth by =
triangulation.=20
<P>But this has to be done very precisely! Bearing in mind that the =
speed of=20
light is about one foot per nanosecond, an error of 100 nanoseconds or =
so could,=20
for example, put an airplane off the runway in a blind landing. This =
means the=20
clocks in the satellites timing when the signals are sent out must =
certainly be=20
accurate to 100 nanoseconds a day. That is one part in 10<SUP>12</SUP>. =
It is=20
easy to check that both the special relativistic time dilation =
correction from=20
the speed of the satellite, and the general relativistic gravitational =
potential=20
correction are much greater than that, so the clocks in the satellites =
must be=20
corrected appropriately. (The satellites go around the earth once every =
twelve=20
hours, which puts them at a distance of about four earth radii. The =
calculations=20
of time dilation from the speed of the satellite, and the clock rate =
change from=20
the gravitational potential, are left as exercises for the student.) For =
more=20
details, see the lecture by Neil Ashby <A=20
href=3D"http://vishnu.nirvana.phys.psu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html">here</A>.=
=20
<P>In fact, Ashby reports that when the first Cesium clock was put in =
orbit in=20
1977, those involved were sufficiently skeptical of general relativity =
that the=20
clock was not corrected for the gravitational redshift effect. But -- =
just in=20
case Einstein turned out to be right -- the satellite was equipped with =
a=20
synthesizer that could be switched on if necessary to add the =
appropriate=20
relativistic corrections. After letting the clock run for three weeks =
with the=20
synthesizer turned off, it was found to differ from an identical clock =
at ground=20
level by precisely the amount predicted by special plus general =
relativity,=20
limited only by the accuracy of the clock. This simple experiment =
verified the=20
predicted gravitational redshift to about one percent accuracy! The =
synthesizer=20
was turned on and left on.=20
<P>
<P><BR><A href=3D"home.html">Physics 252 Home Page</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"kinetic_theory.html">Link to Next Lecture</A><BR>
<P>Copyright =A92000 Michael Fowler </P></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C00340.1294B620--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 06:35:08 2000
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> I'm not going to argue with El Presidente but we all know the story, all the
> new stuff is scoffed at by science, said to be impossible; it always comes
> from the outside.

---
While science is adversarial, and necessarily so, I'd hardly say that
your experience with being scoffed at is  everyone else's.  Matter of
fact, I've seen many times when you were asked for information which was
never forthcoming, but instead you did your little dance and blamed
everyone else for not building and testing _your_ machine.  Do some
work, David.  Build one yourself.  Test one yourself.  Or is it that if
you never build and test one then you can blame everyone else when they
build and test it and it fails?  You know, "They did this wrong", "They
did that wrong", perpetually.  
---
  

> It makes no sense whatsoever man has not built and tested whirlpools before
> and less sense you highly intelligent folks don't have the common sense to
> see it.  But high intelligence has never been known for having common sense,
> so I guess it makes perfect sense.  Truely the Emperor wears no clothes.


---
What makes no sense is that _you_ haven't.  You claim that your theory
will save mankind and yet you wait for everyone else to do the work.  If
you really had the courage of your convictions you'd be doing more than
just "talking the talk".
---
 
 
> Been talking to the BBC more today, asked for my number, they want to talk.
> I guess there are no amateur scientists with projects going on this list?
> If anyone knows of any like me on other lists stuggling to have their work
> recognized, tell them to contact me.  The Olympics are so much better than
> pro sports.  It is about heart, the passion, not money.  The love of money
> is the root of all evil.


---
That's foolish. evil was around long before money was.  If I had to say
what the root of all evil was I'd prob'ly say "envy".
---
 
> And Whirlpower is a real theory.  It follows a logical pattern of thought
> and leads to a testable conclusion.  

---
Then test it and be done with it and stop this inane blather.
---


John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 06:53:51 2000
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >> ***{If he flew the thing to a repair facility, he obviously flew it there
> >> empty.
> >
> >You don't know that. It is not obvious. But it's also a moot point.
> 
> ***{Before you take your pickup in to the repair shop, you always load it
> up to capacity with lumber, cement, and rebar, right? --MJ}***
 
Nope. But that's because I don't use my pick up as a commercial vehicle
and it doesn't cost a lot to operate.

Trucks and airplanes are a different matter. 

> >> Thus he would know exactly zilch about its flying characterisitcs
> >> when loaded.
> >
> >If they are sluggish when empty, loading them down isn't
> >going to make them less so!  :-D
> 
> ***{You are dropping the context. To refresh your memory, here is what the
> guy supposedly said:
> 
> "They are a pig to handle, especially with any kind of load."
> 
> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
> crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
> empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy when
> loaded. 

:-) You can interpret it any way you want. The way I see it, he's flown it
both empty and loaded, and it is even more hard to handle loaded than
empty, which is what we expect. 

> Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
> facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
> 
> Now, obviously, Briggs will get together with the guy again, and the
> revised version of the story will seem perfectly plausible--because, of
> course, there is *no way* there could be any bias operating here, right?

Why would Briggs buddy care? Is he a fascist dupe like me? You think he
flew the plane, said "gee, that flys wonderfully, but I'd better lie about
it and say it was really bad or the guys will kick me out of the
conspiracy?"

> That, at any rate, will be yours, and his, and Briggs' interpretation. And,
> of course, as outsiders, there is *no way* that any of the rest of us can
> verify or falsify their statements, once they get their stories together.

His story is consistant with the aerodynamics. If you feel different, go
fly one yourself. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 07:04:04 2000
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Subject: Re: I'm backfor a while
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> After reading the latest issue of IE I see that may others are looking 
> towards a condensate for answers.    A central question is, "How can we get a 
> Bose condensate at above room temperatures?"  

I'm pretty convinced now that deuterons won't form a BEC unless they have
a temperature around 10^-7 kelvins. That's pretty cold, but I do think
that defects and flaws in the crystal lattice form a sort of "trap" and
you can get very high deuteron densitities there. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 07:04:58 2000
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Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
> >writes:
> >
> >> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
> >>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
> >>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy when
> >>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
> >>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
> >
> >Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it with all
> >the
> >spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.
> 
> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
> is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*.

I fly in uncertified airplanes all the time. Every one that rolls off the
production line that doesn't have it's "ticket" is uncertified and
experimental until it is blessed by the FAA.

I know people who fly in experimental airplanes all the time too. They are
fine airplanes. 

And some airplanes are sound, but not up to current regulations. I've
seen DC-3s (and a DC-2) that underwent modifications so it could meet
current regulations and fly again. Structure wise, they were almost as
sound as the day they were built. Neither one was a pressurized airplane,
and it's amazing how much stress and fatigue pressurizing a plane puts on
the airframe. I bet this Bernulli plane was right up there with the DC-3s
I've seen. 

Or is it not as well put together as a conventional DC-3? Never thought
I'd hear you say it was a piece of junk. 

> If you
> load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes, of
> course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of those
> risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around pilons--but
> the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***

Your assumptions are so off the wall that they amaze me. 
 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 07:20:27 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Whirlpower on the BBC
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:18:42 PDT
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John, I guess you never got the part I don't have any money.  There are lots 
of folks that don't you know.  Millions live in poverty in America, billions 
around the world.  I am disabled but I'm not asking for sympathy or money, 
just for science to follow the Scientific Method, theorists propose, 
scientists dispose.  That's how they taught it to me back in college.  If 
you are a "real" scientist, and you cannot dispose of my Declaration is it 
your responsibility to do something.  Like I said before, Einstein did not 
do the measurment on gravitational lensing, he proposed the test.  If 
Hawking was poor and proposed a theory that had an actual testable 
conclusion, he would have a hard time doing it too.  I am not as severly 
disabled but I can't drive or do this myself.

I have gotten three whirlpools built, with no money.  And I think I will 
complete this project soon, all without spending one dime.  As soon as the 
BBC does this story, "Passions of Science", about amateur scientists, the 
"real" scientists will test.  And they will be able to do it quickly and 
easily with very little expense.  This test could be done practicaly 
overnight in any university in the world with good lab equipment.

>From scratch, it would cost me too much to do.  My "passion" is to find the 
truth.

David Dennard
The Cosmological Constant
http://www.whirlpower.cc




>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Whirlpower on the BBC
>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:30:46 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > I'm not going to argue with El Presidente but we all know the story, all 
>the
> > new stuff is scoffed at by science, said to be impossible; it always 
>comes
> > from the outside.
>
>---
>While science is adversarial, and necessarily so, I'd hardly say that
>your experience with being scoffed at is  everyone else's.  Matter of
>fact, I've seen many times when you were asked for information which was
>never forthcoming, but instead you did your little dance and blamed
>everyone else for not building and testing _your_ machine.  Do some
>work, David.  Build one yourself.  Test one yourself.  Or is it that if
>you never build and test one then you can blame everyone else when they
>build and test it and it fails?  You know, "They did this wrong", "They
>did that wrong", perpetually.
>---
>
>
> > It makes no sense whatsoever man has not built and tested whirlpools 
>before
> > and less sense you highly intelligent folks don't have the common sense 
>to
> > see it.  But high intelligence has never been known for having common 
>sense,
> > so I guess it makes perfect sense.  Truely the Emperor wears no clothes.
>
>
>---
>What makes no sense is that _you_ haven't.  You claim that your theory
>will save mankind and yet you wait for everyone else to do the work.  If
>you really had the courage of your convictions you'd be doing more than
>just "talking the talk".
>---
>
>
> > Been talking to the BBC more today, asked for my number, they want to 
>talk.
> > I guess there are no amateur scientists with projects going on this 
>list?
> > If anyone knows of any like me on other lists stuggling to have their 
>work
> > recognized, tell them to contact me.  The Olympics are so much better 
>than
> > pro sports.  It is about heart, the passion, not money.  The love of 
>money
> > is the root of all evil.
>
>
>---
>That's foolish. evil was around long before money was.  If I had to say
>what the root of all evil was I'd prob'ly say "envy".
>---
>
> > And Whirlpower is a real theory.  It follows a logical pattern of 
>thought
> > and leads to a testable conclusion.
>
>---
>Then test it and be done with it and stop this inane blather.
>---
>
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Physics Professor releases Anti-gravity Secrets

In a stunning development, Brazilian Physics Professor Fran de Aquino
has released the results of a comparatively simple experiment
successfully conducted in the laboratory at Maranhao State University
earlier this year that conclusively demonstrates anti-gravity principles.

http://www.cseti.org/position/addition/brazil%20gravity.htm

--
Regards,
Dale Pond
Delta Spectrum Research
http://www.SVPvril.com
Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
Sacred Science - Sacred Life
SVP Discussion Forum:
http://www.egroups.com/list/svpvril/

Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.

Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.



Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.

Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 07:37:34 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:35:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re:Cold Fusion and the Reciprocal Universe
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last June I received an Email from a Vortexian who had a webpage that 
talked about his work in CF, based on Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal 
Universe. I had copied it with the intension of forwarding it to my 
physics tutor, Frank. If the person who wrote that Email would resend 
it, both of us would be interested.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 07:55:12 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:53:13 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Airship freight
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I do not want to step into this debate about the Burnelli design, but I
would like to point out that for lifting capacity and economical transport
of freight, airships are potentially better than conventional airplanes of
any design. They are slower but cheaper, they can haul much more, and they
can land at any reasonably flat area, including ice, open sea, or the roof
of a shopping mall. See:

http://www.atgplc.com/index_frames.htm

These designs combine helium lighter-than-air with a lifting body. Some
claims made by the manufacturer, which I cannot vouch for:

at 1,003 ft long, the SkyCat™ 1000 is longer than 4 jumbo jets put end to end.
 
the C5, the largest US military transport aircraft can carry one tank. The
SkyCat™ 1000 will carry twelve.
 
the SkyCat™ 1000 will have a payload capacity approximately equivalent to
ten 747 jets.

the SkyCat™ 1000 will have be able to carry 880 Ford Mondeos.

the SkyCat™ 1000 can travel four times as fast as the world's biggest
cruise ship at a top speed of 110 knots.

the SkyCat™ 1000 can cross the Atlantic and back without refuelling, with a
6,000 plus mile range.

all models have been designed to carry freight at fast sea freight rates,
not air freight rates.

the SkyCat™ principle has been proven by military tests to be less
vulnerable to attack than helicopters. 

Airships would be particularly useful in the third world. See:

http://www.cargoinfo.co.za/ftw/98/98no13m.html

Cold fusion might enhance airships, by allowing economical hot air cells in
addition to the helium cells. This was the design used in the Breitling
Orbiter round-the-world balloon. Or it might obsolete them once and for all
with zero-fuel cost VTOL (vertical take off and landing) aircraft.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 08:17:55 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:16:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
Resent-Message-ID: <"qSTBM3.0.DJ6.7Z1bv" mx1>
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>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>mjones jump.net
>> >writes:
>> >
>> >> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
>> >>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
>> >>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy
>>when
>> >>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
>> >>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
>> >
>> >Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it
>>with all
>> >the
>> >spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.
>>
>> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
>> is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*.
>
>I fly in uncertified airplanes all the time. Every one that rolls off the
>production line that doesn't have it's "ticket" is uncertified and
>experimental until it is blessed by the FAA.

***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an aircraft
junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?

The answer: of course you don't. What  you are doing here, as is usual for
you, is dropping the context. Vince was raising the possibility that the
Burnelli which Briggs' friend flew was taken to a boneyard loaded with
junk, to save freight costs, and I was responding to the point he raised.
And now you have jumped in and started nattering on about utter
irrelevancies.

Anyway, I'm sick of discussing this topic with you, so I'm setting a filter
to delete any further posts that you make to this thread. You are, of
course, free to waste someone else's time, if you can entice some other
victim to roll around in the mud with you.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I know people who fly in experimental airplanes all the time too. They are
>fine airplanes.

***{Yup, and they were flying them off, fully loaded, to aircraft
graveyards where they would be scrapped, right? --MJ}***

>
>And some airplanes are sound, but not up to current regulations. I've
>seen DC-3s (and a DC-2) that underwent modifications so it could meet
>current regulations and fly again. Structure wise, they were almost as
>sound as the day they were built. Neither one was a pressurized airplane,
>and it's amazing how much stress and fatigue pressurizing a plane puts on
>the airframe. I bet this Bernulli plane was right up there with the DC-3s
>I've seen.
>
>Or is it not as well put together as a conventional DC-3? Never thought
>I'd hear you say it was a piece of junk.

***{Regardless of the quality of the design, once an aircraft is worn out
to the point where it is too costly to operate and maintain, it becomes a
piece of junk, destined either for a museum or a graveyard. When that
happens, the pilot who flies it on its last journey can expect sloppy
performance, and he cannot reasonably treat that performance as a measure
of the way the same aircraft performed when it was new. --MJ}***

>
>> If you
>> load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes, of
>> course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of those
>> risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around pilons--but
>> the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***
>
>Your assumptions are so off the wall that they amaze me.

***{Your state of amazement is *exactly* as irrelevant to the issue here as
virtually everything else you say. That's why I'm setting a filter to
delete any further posts you make to this thread. Bye! --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 11:01:58 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:58:07 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Airship freight
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How about that StratCat? Nice wireless internet platform.

- Rick

>I do not want to step into this debate about the Burnelli design, but I
>would like to point out that for lifting capacity and economical transport
>of freight, airships are potentially better than conventional airplanes of
>any design. They are slower but cheaper, they can haul much more, and they
>can land at any reasonably flat area, including ice, open sea, or the roof
>of a shopping mall. See:
>
>http://www.atgplc.com/index_frames.htm
>
>These designs combine helium lighter-than-air with a lifting body. Some
>claims made by the manufacturer, which I cannot vouch for:
>
>at 1,003 ft long, the SkyCat™ 1000 is longer than 4 jumbo jets put end to end.
>
>the C5, the largest US military transport aircraft can carry one tank. The
>SkyCat™ 1000 will carry twelve.
>
>the SkyCat™ 1000 will have a payload capacity approximately equivalent to
>ten 747 jets.
>
>the SkyCat™ 1000 will have be able to carry 880 Ford Mondeos.
>
>the SkyCat™ 1000 can travel four times as fast as the world's biggest
>cruise ship at a top speed of 110 knots.
>
>the SkyCat™ 1000 can cross the Atlantic and back without refuelling, with a
>6,000 plus mile range.
>
>all models have been designed to carry freight at fast sea freight rates,
>not air freight rates.
>
>the SkyCat™ principle has been proven by military tests to be less
>vulnerable to attack than helicopters.
>
>Airships would be particularly useful in the third world. See:
>
>http://www.cargoinfo.co.za/ftw/98/98no13m.html
>
>Cold fusion might enhance airships, by allowing economical hot air cells in
>addition to the helium cells. This was the design used in the Breitling
>Orbiter round-the-world balloon. Or it might obsolete them once and for all
>with zero-fuel cost VTOL (vertical take off and landing) aircraft.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 11:06:45 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Airship freight
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>> How about that StratCat? Nice wireless internet platform.

>> - Rick

Er, StratSat, not StratCat.

Military guy I knew had this amazing plan in the early 80's to have 
large airships like these fitted out with launch tubes & missles like 
giant flying ballistic missile submarines. They would drift around 
high in the stratosphere as an alternative to Reagan's train system. 
The mind boggles at all the what-ifs. <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 13:13:57 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:12:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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In a message dated 8/10/00 9:41:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
>  is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*. If you
>  load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. 

That an aircraft is "out-of-certification" and "shot" seems like an 
assumption to me. What is your basis for such an assumption?

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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Mitchell,

Why would any pilot chosen at random have any kind of bias when it comes to 
flying, other than keeping his pink little skin in one piece?

(Well in this case pink big skin)

I haven't checked back with him why at least one that he flew was loaded.

Just off the top of my head, if you need to move x number of junk planes to a 
bone yard and only half of them fly, and since you have to pay for the pilot & 
gas anywise, you would put as many parts from the other ones in the one that 
flys as you could.

Or if you have engines from other planes that just need to be rebuilt, why send 
the whole plane.  Just crate them up and send them with the one that has to go.

As far as automatically being part of the conspiracy if they dare to disagree 
with you.  Well my friend would probably want to know where his check was for 
playing a part.

As far as being a risk taker goes, well I don't know if his having worked in the 
military doing explosive demolitions qualifies.  Or being a drag & stock car 
racer.  Nahh!!!

It must be nice living in a world where everyone who disagrees with you must be 
biased or be part of some conspiracy....

Now of course you will want to flame me, even though you have repeatedly said 
you want out of this conversation.

But you keep coming back.....

I guess you just like having the last word.

So try to keep your next "I don't want to discuss it" down to 10 pages or less.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
Briggs XLNsystems.com

I would have included exerpts, but it was all the same tired old tirade, so why 
bother.

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000810224434.14017F-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re:  Ethernet Is there a carrier... or Not?   What is being transmitted PLEASE
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:30:33 -0400
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JHS asks:
> 
> Is there a carrier?   I am trying to understand the signal...
> please.
Look at the earlier exchange between Terry and me.
10base2, coxial ethernet does not use a carrier.
100baseT complicates the question by using
3 level  amplitude modulation. I would still
call this a baseband system but the distinction is
getting more than a little fuzzy, it could also be
thought of as a modulation of the clock signal
which could be considered as a carrier. 
What you need to do is to study the details of
the "physical layer " signaling used for each
ethernet type and not be too concerned about the
fuzzyness involved in applying old terminology.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 13:41:04 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:37:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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In a message dated 8/11/00 8:18:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> ***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an aircraft
>  junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?
>  
No Mitchell, you may fly a plane destined to be used as spares or 
scrap to the scrapyard loaded up with parts also destined as scrap to the
boneyard. 
What I am saying planes flying to a boneyard may be loaded or unloaded. 
You cannot assume they are empty just because you want them to be.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 13:53:30 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:50:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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>In a message dated 8/10/00 9:41:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
>> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
>>  is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*. If you
>>  load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish.
>
>That an aircraft is "out-of-certification" and "shot" seems like an
>assumption to me. What is your basis for such an assumption?

***{No basis whatsoever. The assumptions I made were those invoked by
you--to wit: that the aircraft was out of certification and headed for a
boneyard--i.e., an aircraft graveyard/wrecking yard. Based on those
assumptions, I *infered* that the aircraft was shot. The reason is that, by
and large, people treat aircraft pretty much the way they treat
automobiles: they don't consign them to wrecking yards until they are no
longer worth the cost of keeping them in certification--which means: they
keep them until they are shot. Thus your attempt to support the claim of
Briggs' friend to have flown the aircraft *loaded*, by assuming he flew it
to a wrecking yard carrying a load of junk, does not work. Once an aircraft
is out-of-certification, it is illegal to use it to haul freight. Worse, if
it is out of certification *and* shot, it is very dangerous to do so. Of
course, as I said, Briggs' friend may be a crazy, risk-taking sort of
guy--like the old-time pilots who flew upside-down around pylons--but it
ain't likely. If we intend to go with the odds here, therefore, I think we
have to treat this tale as highly suspect. --MJ}***

>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 13:59:37 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:57:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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In a message dated 8/11/00 1:30:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov writes:

> So try to keep your next "I don't want to discuss it" down to 10 pages or 
> less.
>  
>  Bill
>  webriggs concentric.net
>  Briggs XLNsystems.com
>  

Well said Bill.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 14:15:24 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 11, 2000
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:06:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Aug 00   Washington, DC

1. ENERGY: DRESSELHAUS FACES BUDGET CHALLENGE AT SCIENCE OFFICE.
Just how serious that challenge is was bluntly stated by Neal
Lane, the President's Science Advisor, at the Monday swearing in
of Millie Dresselhaus as Director of the DOE Office of Science:
Congress has cut $1.8B from the R&D request "precisely at the
moment in history when we can best afford to invest in America's
future."  One of the nation's most honored physicists, and the
1984 APS President, Millie took the job because she's needed.

2. BUDGET ALERT: YOU CAN HELP MILLIE.  The final DOE budget will
be determined by a few key legislators.  They need your input
immediately.  For details see www.aps.org/public_affairs/action .

3. STATE: PAIR-O'-DRIVES LOST. The State Department is offering a
$25,000 reward for information leading to the apprehension of a
laptop containing highly classified information on weapons of
mass destruction.  The black laptop escaped from a sixth floor
conference room in January.  Has anybody looked behind the copy
machine?  And where are the polygraphs?  When a hard drive turned
up missing at Los Alamos, the interrogation was so intense the
employees involved were later given two weeks off to recover. 

4. DEFENSE: WAITING FOR MORE DOUGH?  Secretary of Defense Cohen
decided to postpone his recommendation to President Clinton on
deployment of a national missile defense system until sometime in
September.  The hang up, we learn, is that technical problems
with a new booster could delay deployment by two years. 

5. FLORSHEIM: ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL FARCES IN THE UNIVERSE. 
According to the brochure describing the benefits of MagneForce
shoes: "Magnetism represents one of the most basic powers in the
universe.  This force keeps order in the galaxy, allowing the
stars and planets to spin at significant velocities...At the
earth's surface, the magnetic field is relatively weak, but
serves to keep humans attached to the earth.  Without it we would
spin off into space."  There is much, much more, but this gives
you the flavor.  Florsheim says this information is "compiled
from the writings of leaders in the field."  This quote, in fact,
is taken directly from "Healing with Magnets" by Gary Null, Ph.D.

6. NULL: THREE DEGREES OF SEPARATION.  "A Ph.D. in what?" I can
hear you asking. Null claims three degrees:  an associate degree
from Mountain State College in Parkersburg, WV, a 2-year business
school; a bachelor's degree from Thomas Edison State College in
New Jersey, a "non-traditional" school without campus or courses
that awards degrees for "life experiences"; and a Ph.D. in health
from The Union Institute in Cincinnati, where students design
their own programs, and form and chair their own PhD committees.

Maria Cranor contributed to this week's WN.
THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 14:27:02 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:25:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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In a message dated 8/11/00 1:53:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> >That an aircraft is "out-of-certification" and "shot" seems like an
>  >assumption to me. What is your basis for such an assumption?
>  
>  ***{No basis whatsoever. The assumptions I made were those invoked by
>  you--to wit: that the aircraft was out of certification and headed for a
>  boneyard--i.e., an aircraft graveyard/wrecking yard. Based on those
>  assumptions, I *infered* that the aircraft was shot. 

I INVOKED that the aircraft was out of certification and headed for a
boneyard--i.e., an aircraft graveyard/wrecking yard?  
Sorry Mitchell, but YOU were the one who invoked "out of certification".
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

There are plenty of aircraft in the boneyard down in Arizona that are
there for no other reason that they are obsolete. The stage 1 727's
for example, that cannot meet FAA noise regulations for instance.
There is nothing wrong with these aircraft, they are mothballed. They
can be sold and used in countries where not subject to FAA regs.
I have been there pal, and saw some aircraft loaded with crates. When 
I asked what was in the crates the reply was "aircraft parts".

Advise you give this up and face the fact that a pilot has flown these
types and given expert testimony on handling characteristics of the
design when loaded and very clearly stated that they
"are a pig to handle when loaded". Being a pilot myself I believe
him rather than some totally off the wall conspiracy theory.


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 14:54:13 2000
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From: kurtz imap2.asu.edu
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:01:31 -0700
Subject: Test, please ignore
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Just testing a new email client.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 16:30:43 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:16:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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>In a message dated 8/11/00 8:18:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
>> ***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an aircraft
>>  junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?
>>
>No Mitchell, you may fly a plane destined to be used as spares or
>scrap to the scrapyard loaded up with parts also destined as scrap to the
>boneyard.
>What I am saying planes flying to a boneyard may be loaded or unloaded.
>You cannot assume they are empty just because you want them to be.

***{I'm not doing that. Here is the statement that is at issue:

> I found someone who actually flew one of these.  A friend of mine worked
>as a
> transfer pilot, flying planes that have expired certifications to repair
> facilities.  (Or museums, or boneyards)

I infer that the aircraft was empty because, under normal circumstances, it
is illegal to fly an aircraft in the United States if it does not have a
certificate of airworthiness. Exceptions apply to test pilots who are
working the kinks out of new designs or obtaining initial certification for
new aircraft, and, possibly--I don't know this for a fact--to pilots who
are willing to risk life and limb by taking a junker on its last flight to
a wrecking yard. Assuming a special exemption would be granted in such a
case, you can bet your bottom dollar that the permission would only apply
to flying the aircraft *empty*. The reasons are obvious: even empty, a
junker aircraft is a hazard, not merely to the person flying it, but to
persons on the ground, and the notion that the FAA would grant a special
exemption to a pilot *to haul freight* in such a craft is simply laughable.
Thus if Briggs' friend did that, it is a virtual certainty that he broke
the law while doing so. Since I doubt that he would be willing to risk his
pilot's license merely to save freight costs on a load of garbage, I think
he would have goten rid of his load of junk parts via the normal disposal
channels: by selling them to a scrap yard for a few cents a pound and
hauling them off by truck.

Bottom line: this story doesn't make sense to me, and, frankly, I don't
believe it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 16:34:46 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Debate About Burnelli Design
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Gnorts,

A couple of months ago there was an oil pipeline explosion that killed some
people in Bellingham, Washington near Seattle.  The Seattle Times P-I
finally did a pretty good special on the pipeline industry in that area that
is fairly revealing.

http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/pipelines/

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 18:03:41 2000
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Message-ID: <3994A0F9.86BD75EF austininstruments.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:57:29 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> John, I guess you never got the part I don't have any money.  There are lots
> of folks that don't you know.  Millions live in poverty in America, billions
> around the world.

---
Yeah, and?  Why does this have anything to do with what we're
discussing?
---

> I am disabled but I'm not asking for sympathy or money,
> just for science to follow the Scientific Method, theorists propose,
> scientists dispose.  That's how they taught it to me back in college.

---
OK, now I get it.  Poor baby... What you're saying is that because
you're poor and disabled and you have an idea, everyone should jump
through your hoops even though you have no scientific credentials to
speak of.  Why should anyone hitch their wagon to your star when we all
have our own stars to hitch our wagons to?
---  

> If you are a "real" scientist, and you cannot dispose of my Declaration is it
> your responsibility to do something.

---
Garbage.  Just because you make what you consider to be a "declaration"
doesn't mean that it needs to be considered as anything but an opinion
by anyone.  Nor does it mean that anyone has to do anything to prove it
true or false.  No one who is free is at your beck and call, David, and
it certainly isn't within your bailiwick to delegate responsibility
which you abrogate.

Just as an aside, look at the structure of your 'If you are a "real"
scientist...' sentence.  After 'Declaration'  you write 'is it' when it
should have been 'it is' since the sentence didn't end with a question
mark.

Most competent technical writers at least learn the written language
before they try to become political!  
---
   
> Like I said before, 

---
This implies that what you said previously was important and that I
missed it.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.
--- 

> Einstein did not
> do the measurment on gravitational lensing, he proposed the test.

---
True, but he also mentioned some numbers, which you have not done, and
refuse to do, so clearly you're not in his league.
---

> If Hawking was poor and proposed a theory that had an actual testable
> conclusion, he would have a hard time doing it too.  I am not as severly
> disabled but I can't drive or do this myself.

---
More garbage.  Hawking's hypotheses are brilliant and their expositions
lucid.
You state that you're not as "severly" disabled, yet you cut yourself
off from everyone with your attitude.
---
  

> I have gotten three whirlpools built, with no money.  

---
And the test results were?...
---

> And I think I will
> complete this project soon, all without spendig one dime.  As soon as the
> BBC does this story, "Passions of Science", about amateur scientists, the
> "real" scientists will test.  And they will be able to do it quickly and
> easily with very little expense.  This test could be done practicaly
> overnight in any university in the world with good lab equipment.
> 
> >From scratch, it would cost me too much to do.  My "passion" is to find the
> truth.

---

David, I really doubt that your passion is to "find the truth".  I think
that what you're trying to do is to get a lot of attention in order to
prove to yourself that you're a worthwhile creature.  How better to do
that than to make a lot of noise and have everyone complain about the
noise... At least you will have been noticed.

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 18:47:57 2000
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:48:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>,
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	Dear Hoyt,

	Do you mean this is a straight square-rectangular wave shape
signal?  Do you know the magnitude?  Is it symmetrical above and below
zero... ie., + and - 9 volts?   

			Thanks for ANY further detail.


				John

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         Dear G.,
> >
> >         Is there a carrier?   I am trying to understand the signal...
> > please.
> >
> 
> No.  It's Manchester encoded data-- strictly time domain --all digital--
> It's a self clocking  pulse stream where clocks
> are voltage transitions  and binary data are other transitions between the
> clocks similar to what's read
> off of older disk drives, tape drives.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Hoyt Stearns
> Phoenix
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
> 


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It is not just my opinion John.  Other folks agree.

I don't expect you to do anything but argue, anybody can argue.

WE saw here there was "great interest" is a device that tried to tap a 
vortex 5 years ago.  Why?  Why have many tried to tap a vortex?  Why has 
there been interest in that subject?  I did not start interest in the 
vortex.  It was started before you or I were born.  But there is no data 
anywhere on whirlpools.  If you can supply any, then you will have said 
something of substance.  If not, then you show you just want to ignore this 
and argue.  You are flapping your jaws again.

What I am saying is not without great precident.  What I am saying is they 
approached the problem the wrong way.  Trying to tap the vortex snuffs out 
the power.  You can't throw a wet blanket on a fire and dry the blanket out.

I have reported the homemade whirlpool tests.  They look just like little 
hurricanes, wide with a small vortex in the center.  Flow meters were not 
used so the data is sketchy.  These were done by regular folks, not 
scientists.  Pictures were not taken, but they all report basically the same 
thing.   A large massive whirlpool, wide, not very deep, can be made with 
just a tiny feedback.  The torus dount appears intact with our milk squirt 
tests.  A torus donut is not the same thing as the donut shaped toroid flow 
of the vortex, seen in all previous vortex science.

Here is the Anatomy of a Whirlpool in case you missed it.

Put me down all you like, if that makes you feel better, my attitude is one 
of looking for the answer.  Your attitude makes you look like a person that 
is not interesed in finding out anything.  Just someone tying to put someone 
down.  The rules of this list say that is not acceptable, but it seems that 
is only thing this list has ever tried to do.

David

******************************************

Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.

The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
lip.

        __      __
         "\    /"
        <' \  / '>
            \/


The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
inward spin.



____________E______________     ________________E_____________
            >              \   /               <
                         <' \ / '>
     ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^

            <                                   >

The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
the frame dragging wobble effect.

A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.


       ____                                         ____
        "  ---                                   ---  "
              ''''''....              ....''''''
                        ''''\    /''''
                   <'        \  /        '>
                              \/
                               \
                               /

This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.

The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
flusher is not a whirlpool.

This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
it is not, very different.

>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Whirlpower on the BBC
>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:57:29 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > John, I guess you never got the part I don't have any money.  There are 
>lots
> > of folks that don't you know.  Millions live in poverty in America, 
>billions
> > around the world.
>
>---
>Yeah, and?  Why does this have anything to do with what we're
>discussing?
>---
>
> > I am disabled but I'm not asking for sympathy or money,
> > just for science to follow the Scientific Method, theorists propose,
> > scientists dispose.  That's how they taught it to me back in college.
>
>---
>OK, now I get it.  Poor baby... What you're saying is that because
>you're poor and disabled and you have an idea, everyone should jump
>through your hoops even though you have no scientific credentials to
>speak of.  Why should anyone hitch their wagon to your star when we all
>have our own stars to hitch our wagons to?
>---
>
> > If you are a "real" scientist, and you cannot dispose of my Declaration 
>is it
> > your responsibility to do something.
>
>---
>Garbage.  Just because you make what you consider to be a "declaration"
>doesn't mean that it needs to be considered as anything but an opinion
>by anyone.  Nor does it mean that anyone has to do anything to prove it
>true or false.  No one who is free is at your beck and call, David, and
>it certainly isn't within your bailiwick to delegate responsibility
>which you abrogate.
>
>Just as an aside, look at the structure of your 'If you are a "real"
>scientist...' sentence.  After 'Declaration'  you write 'is it' when it
>should have been 'it is' since the sentence didn't end with a question
>mark.
>
>Most competent technical writers at least learn the written language
>before they try to become political!
>---
>
> > Like I said before,
>
>---
>This implies that what you said previously was important and that I
>missed it.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.
>---
>
> > Einstein did not
> > do the measurment on gravitational lensing, he proposed the test.
>
>---
>True, but he also mentioned some numbers, which you have not done, and
>refuse to do, so clearly you're not in his league.
>---
>
> > If Hawking was poor and proposed a theory that had an actual testable
> > conclusion, he would have a hard time doing it too.  I am not as severly
> > disabled but I can't drive or do this myself.
>
>---
>More garbage.  Hawking's hypotheses are brilliant and their expositions
>lucid.
>You state that you're not as "severly" disabled, yet you cut yourself
>off from everyone with your attitude.
>---
>
>
> > I have gotten three whirlpools built, with no money.
>
>---
>And the test results were?...
>---
>
> > And I think I will
> > complete this project soon, all without spendig one dime.  As soon as 
>the
> > BBC does this story, "Passions of Science", about amateur scientists, 
>the
> > "real" scientists will test.  And they will be able to do it quickly and
> > easily with very little expense.  This test could be done practicaly
> > overnight in any university in the world with good lab equipment.
> >
> > >From scratch, it would cost me too much to do.  My "passion" is to find 
>the
> > truth.
>
>---
>
>David, I really doubt that your passion is to "find the truth".  I think
>that what you're trying to do is to get a lot of attention in order to
>prove to yourself that you're a worthwhile creature.  How better to do
>that than to make a lot of noise and have everyone complain about the
>noise... At least you will have been noticed.
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 19:38:14 2000
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And John, if my words are not "lucid" enough for you why would a "formally 
trained" scientist say these words?  He absorbed it!!!

*

Dear David,

I wish to salute and thank you for your work and your website sharing,
which I recently discovered and absorbed thoroughly.  I found them very 
inspiring and valuable to my own work (currently in microfluidics).  They 
also helped confirm many ideas which came to me in meditation the last 
several years... which were outside my formal training (Electrical 
Engineering) and outside most formal training in science period.

I'm currently going through a major life metamorphasis, redefining who I am 
and what I will do... triggered by a major disillusionment with the high 
tech corporate world I gave my life to for 20 years.  After leaving that 
world for several years,  I now am returning... but with totally new 
beliefs, perspectives, and objectives... many of which appear very similar 
or compatible with yours.  When appropriate, I would very much like to talk 
with you or even meet you. In the meantime, I applaud you and wish you the 
best in your quest.

Sincerely,

Carl Landsness
Glendora, CA

*

Or another, these?

*

Dear David,

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the
studyof Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the
lack of interest by many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's
just a bit too revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some.  You
don't have to have a string of qualifications and be a head of
a University department to come up with a huge scientific breakthrough.  The 
guy who thought up the theory of plate
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven
right. So don't be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet 
have your vision, David, you may well have the last
laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

*

Or another, these?

*

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand 
how nature works. Like all great discoveries in
science, the ones that will stand for in future generations,
the ones Béchamp made in Medicine, Schwaller in Egyptology,
Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in
Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in 
its consequences and comes from a single look on
nature's pattern.  One has to see it to understand it.
Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like 
hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools
are centripete, have a spiral like dense center, where speed,
matter and temperature shifts.
This more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside
also has a harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the
outside.  David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the 
unexplained last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source
of whirpool/hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form
of nature and how this spiral form has two components.  As he says
it, "that of chaos and order, and how the sense of harmony sets up
a gravitational density wave that drags a huge donut shaped current that 
contains the most basic energy from Nature, The God Energy of
the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and 
could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to 
physics, if we realize the effectiveness
of Whirlpower and bring David's dream into reality.

Dr. Cédric Mannu
cmannu eternite.com

*

This man is no idiot!!

*

I have been following some of the various threads from the
vantage point of a developmental biologist/physician interested
in the mathematics and the philosophy (and the poetry).  Can a
theory be constructed to deal with the simple but also
extraordinarily complex?  Such a theory would be invaluable.
Let’s assume that a new physics and a new biology require a
new view.  Perhaps the most important aspect of this new view
is that it enlightens the most trivial and superficial of objects.
It invigorates everyday experience and everyday language.  As Wittgenstein 
said, “God grant the philosopher the ability to see
what is right before his eyes.”  I noticed David Dennard’s
(http://www.whirlpower.cc) posting on "In and Out and
Non-linearity" and the flat space of the Universe.  What are the topological 
consequences of treating the surface of the body as a “flat space”?  
Btw…next time you see a baby, look at the back of
his head.  Humans, unlike other primates, have a left or right
handed spiral on the crown of the head (5% have mirror image
spirals).  This spiral pattern is formed early in embryogenesis
in conjunction with the growth of the brain and the stretching of
the skin combined with down growth of the hair follicles (J.
Theoret. Biol., 143:1-14, 1990).  If you ever wanted a
time-related human emblem for Whirlpower…there it is!  :-)

Steven B. Hoath, MD
Skin Sciences Institute
Children's Hospital Research Foundation
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio  45267-0541

hoathsb uc.edu
513-558-4903 (work)  513-558-7770 (fax)
"Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe."

*

And many more on the Whirlpower Declaration.

I think I know.

Poor attitued and disbelief in God.  It is a political rift, not scientific. 
  It gets to your craw to see the word God in print or any such statement of 
belief.  Plain and simple.

And that is what is wrong with science.  No wisdom.  No understaning of who 
we are, how we got here, or where we are going.

Even a school girl has the common sense to call out for real testing.  And 
knows only with support from "real scientists" can this happen.

*

Dear David,

I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.
Though I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this concept 
could work.  It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me that 
nobody has done any research on it until now.
Today in Geography we were watching videos on tornados and
hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your theory as I
saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has
definetly given me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the support 
that you need from the rest of the scientific community.

Good luck!
~Marisa
M_Demers telus.net

*

And if these words were not "lucid" enough there are more at my website.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 20:27:15 2000
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 <3994A0F9.86BD75EF austininstruments.com>
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At 7:57 PM -0500 8/11/00, John Fields wrote:

>David, I really doubt that your passion is to "find the truth".  I think
>that what you're trying to do is to get a lot of attention in order to
>prove to yourself that you're a worthwhile creature.

Might you be giving this "topic" far more than it deserves? Ya gotta 
just let go, man... <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 20:31:48 2000
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000

To:  The Good People of the World!

I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans excitedly
told me that:

"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer connected
to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming from
the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"

Power to the People!

[Signed]
Joseph Westley Newman

(480) 657-3722
www.josephnewman.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 20:44:33 2000
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I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not energy. 
  If he can make it feedback, that is energy.

And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with Whirlpower.  
Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will work.

And lack of reply means lack of energy.

David


>From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
>
>To:  The Good People of the World!
>
>I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
>Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans excitedly
>told me that:
>
>"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer connected
>to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming from
>the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
>
>Power to the People!
>
>[Signed]
>Joseph Westley Newman
>
>(480) 657-3722
>www.josephnewman.com
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:05:50 2000
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True. Besides that wasn't very nice. Maybe you can be a worthwhile creature
and still have something that you really believe in. That doesn't make you a
bad person. Especially when you aren't selling your possibly faulty ideas to
anyone, just engaging in debate about a topic which is important to you.
Translation: Don't be such a shit head John.
MJ
Isn't that why people bully others? To prove to themselves that they are
worthwhile creatures?

Rick Monteverde wrote:

> At 7:57 PM -0500 8/11/00, John Fields wrote:
>
> >David, I really doubt that your passion is to "find the truth".  I think
> >that what you're trying to do is to get a lot of attention in order to
> >prove to yourself that you're a worthwhile creature.
>
> Might you be giving this "topic" far more than it deserves? Ya gotta
> just let go, man... <g>
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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In a message dated 8/11/00 4:27:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> I infer that the aircraft was empty because, under normal circumstances, it
>  is illegal to fly an aircraft in the United States if it does not have a
>  certificate of airworthiness.

Mitchell, please tell us: Why do you assume that the
aircraft DID NOT HAVE an airworthiness certificate?

Why do you also ASSUME also that aircraft destined to a 
long term storage facility would not carry cargo?

Like I said in a previous post, I personally saw aircraft at the 
boneyard in Arizona loaded with crates. And no, I don't know
the cargos mass. Maybe they were full of hot air? <g>

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:13:38 2000
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In a message dated 8/11/00 8:48:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
daviddennard hotmail.com writes:

> I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not 
energy. 
>    If he can make it feedback, that is energy.

Please provide a reference for what you say. Thnx

  <snip>
>  
>  David
>  


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:18:33 2000
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Here's something to promote.
What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply that composes
our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by mechanical means
and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to try to make a
device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that is all around
it to flow through?
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not energy.
>   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
>
> And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with Whirlpower.
> Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will work.
>
> And lack of reply means lack of energy.
>
> David
>
> >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> >
> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> >
> >To:  The Good People of the World!
> >
> >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
> >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans excitedly
> >told me that:
> >
> >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer connected
> >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming from
> >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> >
> >Power to the People!
> >
> >[Signed]
> >Joseph Westley Newman
> >
> >(480) 657-3722
> >www.josephnewman.com
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:27:16 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Whirlpower on the BBC
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:26:12 PDT
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That's been my experience Michael.  All the the other guys ask for money, 
try to sell stuff, they can write stuff up with all sorts of numbers, 
doesn't mean anything.

The proof is in the pudding.

No data on whirlpools ever found.

Lots of "real scientists" have tried to tap the vortex, even here, got "real 
excited", I say try a whirlpool.

I'm not saying anything that is not true.

I'd do it myself but I can't.  And don't say I am looking for sympathy or 
expect everyone to come runnin'.  That is not the case.  That is just cruel 
bully talk.

>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Whirlpower on the BBC
>Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:59:51 -0400
>
>True. Besides that wasn't very nice. Maybe you can be a worthwhile creature
>and still have something that you really believe in. That doesn't make you 
>a
>bad person. Especially when you aren't selling your possibly faulty ideas 
>to
>anyone, just engaging in debate about a topic which is important to you.
>Translation: Don't be such a shit head John.
>MJ
>Isn't that why people bully others? To prove to themselves that they are
>worthwhile creatures?
>
>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
> > At 7:57 PM -0500 8/11/00, John Fields wrote:
> >
> > >David, I really doubt that your passion is to "find the truth".  I 
>think
> > >that what you're trying to do is to get a lot of attention in order to
> > >prove to yourself that you're a worthwhile creature.
> >
> > Might you be giving this "topic" far more than it deserves? Ya gotta
> > just let go, man... <g>
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:38:24 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:33:42 PDT
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I say it like all energy is given to us freely by nature, from firewood to 
oil to nuclear, from hydro to solar, to Whirlpower.

It all depends on how it is collected.  But there is no free energy, it is 
all conserved, even in the cosmological constant.  Our current sience is 
perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due to 
inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is 
increasing due to a fantasy explosion.


>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
>Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:24:22 -0400
>
>Here's something to promote.
>What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply that 
>composes
>our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by mechanical 
>means
>and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to try to 
>make a
>device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that is all 
>around
>it to flow through?
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not 
>energy.
> >   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
> >
> > And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with 
>Whirlpower.
> > Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will work.
> >
> > And lack of reply means lack of energy.
> >
> > David
> >
> > >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> > >
> > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> > >
> > >To:  The Good People of the World!
> > >
> > >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
> > >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans 
>excitedly
> > >told me that:
> > >
> > >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer 
>connected
> > >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming 
>from
> > >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> > >
> > >Power to the People!
> > >
> > >[Signed]
> > >Joseph Westley Newman
> > >
> > >(480) 657-3722
> > >www.josephnewman.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 21:59:26 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Airship freight
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Airship freight


> >> How about that StratCat? Nice wireless internet platform.
>
> >> - Rick
>
> Er, StratSat, not StratCat.
>
> Military guy I knew had this amazing plan in the early 80's to have
> large airships like these fitted out with launch tubes & missles like
> giant flying ballistic missile submarines. They would drift around
> high in the stratosphere as an alternative to Reagan's train system.
> The mind boggles at all the what-ifs. <g>

There was a plan to implement this with midget man missiles and
C-17's. The loading ramp would be lowered and the missile pushed
out the back in flight. A flock of stratigic C-17s would be in the air at
all
times.

> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 22:21:05 2000
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Message-ID: <3994DED2.27830B73 csrlink.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:21:23 -0400
From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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Hi David,
See below;

David Dennard wrote:

> I say it like all energy is given to us freely by nature, from firewood to
> oil to nuclear, from hydro to solar, to Whirlpower.

True.

>
>
> It all depends on how it is collected.  But there is no free energy, it is
> all conserved, even in the cosmological constant.

True. People try to say that this or that violates the second law of
thermodynamics but I don't think so. I think that over unity is possible without
violating the second law.
mj

> Our current sience is
> perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due to
> inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
> increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
>
> >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:24:22 -0400
> >
> >Here's something to promote.
> >What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply that
> >composes
> >our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by mechanical
> >means
> >and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to try to
> >make a
> >device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that is all
> >around
> >it to flow through?
> >MJ
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > > I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not
> >energy.
> > >   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
> > >
> > > And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with
> >Whirlpower.
> > > Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will work.
> > >
> > > And lack of reply means lack of energy.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> > > >
> > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> > > >
> > > >To:  The Good People of the World!
> > > >
> > > >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
> > > >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans
> >excitedly
> > > >told me that:
> > > >
> > > >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer
> >connected
> > > >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming
> >from
> > > >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> > > >
> > > >Power to the People!
> > > >
> > > >[Signed]
> > > >Joseph Westley Newman
> > > >
> > > >(480) 657-3722
> > > >www.josephnewman.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 22:36:39 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:34:59 EDT
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
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In a message dated 8/12/00 1:21:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, enki csrlink.net 
writes:

<< True. People try to say that this or that violates the second law of
 thermodynamics but I don't think so. I think that over unity is possible 
without
 violating the second law.
 mj >>

The second law is always upheld, however, I believe that energy may spring 
from nothing.  As Puthoff says, It happened at least once during the birth of 
our universe.   The second law gives a clues about this.  Dr. Tryon has said 
the that the total energy of the universe is zero.  The positive energy is 
balanced by a negative gravitational potential.  Mallove published my paper 
on this in IE in Dec 95.  If local entropy decreases universal entropy must 
increase more.  If a machine could generate a  negative wave of gravity the 
wave  irreversabably expand the universe as it expended.   This extra 
expansion would disrupt the order of the universe and entropy would increase. 
  All free energy machine would have to have this characteristic.  How can we 
generate a wave of gravity?  There is no way under current understanding.  
That's one of the reasons that the understating that the constants of the 
motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate is so important 
in this field.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 22:51:22 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:44:35 PDT
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I think the laws of thermodynamics are a bogus as a three dollar bill.
ZPE proves there is energy in the absence of heat.  That was the first step 
towards the TOE.  Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on 
curved space. That was the second step.  And understanding the whirlpool 
nature of the flat fluid infinite universe is the third step.  The 
cosmological constant.  Whirlpower!!  The TOE.

David
The Paradigm Shift
http://www.whirlpower.cc

>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
>Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:21:23 -0400
>
>Hi David,
>See below;
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > I say it like all energy is given to us freely by nature, from firewood 
>to
> > oil to nuclear, from hydro to solar, to Whirlpower.
>
>True.
>
> >
> >
> > It all depends on how it is collected.  But there is no free energy, it 
>is
> > all conserved, even in the cosmological constant.
>
>True. People try to say that this or that violates the second law of
>thermodynamics but I don't think so. I think that over unity is possible 
>without
>violating the second law.
>mj
>
> > Our current sience is
> > perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due 
>to
> > inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
> > increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
> >
> > >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:24:22 -0400
> > >
> > >Here's something to promote.
> > >What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply that
> > >composes
> > >our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by 
>mechanical
> > >means
> > >and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to try 
>to
> > >make a
> > >device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that is 
>all
> > >around
> > >it to flow through?
> > >MJ
> > >
> > >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > > I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not
> > >energy.
> > > >   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
> > > >
> > > > And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with
> > >Whirlpower.
> > > > Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will 
>work.
> > > >
> > > > And lack of reply means lack of energy.
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> > > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > > >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> > > > >
> > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> > > > >
> > > > >To:  The Good People of the World!
> > > > >
> > > > >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an 
>Electrical
> > > > >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans
> > >excitedly
> > > > >told me that:
> > > > >
> > > > >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer
> > >connected
> > > > >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power 
>coming
> > >from
> > > > >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> > > > >
> > > > >Power to the People!
> > > > >
> > > > >[Signed]
> > > > >Joseph Westley Newman
> > > > >
> > > > >(480) 657-3722
> > > > >www.josephnewman.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
>________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 23:00:26 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:04:28 -0400
From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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Hmmmmm,
   I will have to read your information on "whirlpower" before I try to comment
further in this line.
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> I think the laws of thermodynamics are a bogus as a three dollar bill.
> ZPE proves there is energy in the absence of heat.  That was the first step
> towards the TOE.  Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on
> curved space. That was the second step.  And understanding the whirlpool
> nature of the flat fluid infinite universe is the third step.  The
> cosmological constant.  Whirlpower!!  The TOE.
>
> David
> The Paradigm Shift
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
> >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:21:23 -0400
> >
> >Hi David,
> >See below;
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > > I say it like all energy is given to us freely by nature, from firewood
> >to
> > > oil to nuclear, from hydro to solar, to Whirlpower.
> >
> >True.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > It all depends on how it is collected.  But there is no free energy, it
> >is
> > > all conserved, even in the cosmological constant.
> >
> >True. People try to say that this or that violates the second law of
> >thermodynamics but I don't think so. I think that over unity is possible
> >without
> >violating the second law.
> >mj
> >
> > > Our current sience is
> > > perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due
> >to
> > > inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
> > > increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
> > >
> > > >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:24:22 -0400
> > > >
> > > >Here's something to promote.
> > > >What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply that
> > > >composes
> > > >our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by
> >mechanical
> > > >means
> > > >and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to try
> >to
> > > >make a
> > > >device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that is
> >all
> > > >around
> > > >it to flow through?
> > > >MJ
> > > >
> > > >David Dennard wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is not
> > > >energy.
> > > > >   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
> > > > >
> > > > > And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with
> > > >Whirlpower.
> > > > > Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will
> >work.
> > > > >
> > > > > And lack of reply means lack of energy.
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> > > > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > > > >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> > > > > >
> > > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To:  The Good People of the World!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an
> >Electrical
> > > > > >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans
> > > >excitedly
> > > > > >told me that:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer
> > > >connected
> > > > > >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power
> >coming
> > > >from
> > > > > >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Power to the People!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >[Signed]
> > > > > >Joseph Westley Newman
> > > > > >
> > > > > >(480) 657-3722
> > > > > >www.josephnewman.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >http://www.hotmail.com
> > > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 23:02:30 2000
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From: "Steve Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: BEC's in CF temperature Pd ?
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:59:52 -0700
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Just my view...

http://www.eskimo.com/~lajoie/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 23:30:45 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:28:40 PDT
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Man thinging the universe is finite is absurd.

Man thinging he has seen the edge of the univeres with his teeny tiny 
telescope is the same voodoo practiced by our ancestors thinking they saw 
the edge of the Earth.

To asume the universe was born and base science on that asumption is not 
science.  Even a child understands the concept of infinity.

>As Puthoff says, It happened at least once during the birth of
>our universe.

Was he there?  The science that stated an edge to the universe was based on 
curved space.

>All free energy machine would have to have this characteristic.  How can we 
>generate a wave of gravity?  There is no way under current understanding.

The dural radial arm pattern seen in spiral galaxies and hurricanes is a 
gravity wave.  The energy of motion sprial galaxy and the hurricanes cannot 
be explained by any known science.

Our whirlpool models also show this dual radial arm pattern.


He say one, and one, and one, is three
Got to be a Joker he just do what he please
Come together right now, over me.

David Dennard
The Wild Card
http://www.whirlpower.cc


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 11 23:33:49 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:30:55 PDT
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Great.

http://www.whirlpower.cc

It's getting late.  I'll post THE ROSE tomorrow.  It has all the good 
cosmology stuff in draft but will be up soon.


>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
>Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:04:28 -0400
>
>Hmmmmm,
>    I will have to read your information on "whirlpower" before I try to 
>comment
>further in this line.
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > I think the laws of thermodynamics are a bogus as a three dollar bill.
> > ZPE proves there is energy in the absence of heat.  That was the first 
>step
> > towards the TOE.  Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on
> > curved space. That was the second step.  And understanding the whirlpool
> > nature of the flat fluid infinite universe is the third step.  The
> > cosmological constant.  Whirlpower!!  The TOE.
> >
> > David
> > The Paradigm Shift
> > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> >
> > >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:21:23 -0400
> > >
> > >Hi David,
> > >See below;
> > >
> > >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > > I say it like all energy is given to us freely by nature, from 
>firewood
> > >to
> > > > oil to nuclear, from hydro to solar, to Whirlpower.
> > >
> > >True.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It all depends on how it is collected.  But there is no free energy, 
>it
> > >is
> > > > all conserved, even in the cosmological constant.
> > >
> > >True. People try to say that this or that violates the second law of
> > >thermodynamics but I don't think so. I think that over unity is 
>possible
> > >without
> > >violating the second law.
> > >mj
> > >
> > > > Our current sience is
> > > > perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating 
>due
> > >to
> > > > inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
> > > > increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
> > > >
> > > > >From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > >Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > > >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:24:22 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > >Here's something to promote.
> > > > >What is "free energy"? Simply a way to tap the limitless supply 
>that
> > > > >composes
> > > > >our universe. We try to create a state of surplus electrons by
> > >mechanical
> > > > >means
> > > > >and then PUSH that through a system wouldn't it be much better to 
>try
> > >to
> > > > >make a
> > > > >device which has a lack of electrons and encourage the energy that 
>is
> > >all
> > > > >around
> > > > >it to flow through?
> > > > >MJ
> > > > >
> > > > >David Dennard wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I still say he has to plug it in to keep it going.  Overunity is 
>not
> > > > >energy.
> > > > > >   If he can make it feedback, that is energy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And if you can show this I will start promoting it along with
> > > > >Whirlpower.
> > > > > > Because if you can get energy that way for sure Whirlpower will
> > >work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And lack of reply means lack of energy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> > > > > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > > > > >Subject: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
> > > > > > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:30:36 -0600
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >To:  The Good People of the World!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an
> > >Electrical
> > > > > > >Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  
>Hans
> > > > >excitedly
> > > > > > >told me that:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a 
>transformer
> > > > >connected
> > > > > > >to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power
> > >coming
> > > > >from
> > > > > > >the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Power to the People!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >[Signed]
> > > > > > >Joseph Westley Newman
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >(480) 657-3722
> > > > > > >www.josephnewman.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > 
> >________________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > >http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
>________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 00:23:05 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:13:40 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Sorry, I can resist...

Steve, your page appears as a nice collection of images with broken links. Although not so uncommon on the web but with its plain appearance it will be strong candidate for "Useless Pages" at http://www.go2net.com/useless/ .

Note: It seems images file names cause the problem as embedded spaces (separating words) are not coded URL mime kind like "DeBroglie%20wavelength%20of%20a%20deuteron0070.JPG"

Steve Lajoie wrote:
> 
> Just my view...
> 
> http://www.eskimo.com/~lajoie/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 01:25:43 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 03:21:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Cc: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net
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>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
>
>To:  The Good People of the World!
>
>I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an Electrical
>Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE UNIT #4.  Hans excitedly
>told me that:
>
>"I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000 RPMs with a transformer connected
>to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.  There is MORE power coming from
>the capacitors that is going into them from the transformer!"
>
>Power to the People!
>
>[Signed]
>Joseph Westley Newman
>
>(480) 657-3722
>www.josephnewman.com

***{Does this mean Newman is now manufacturing and selling his motors? If
so, what are the models that he has available, and how much do they cost?
--Mitchell Jones}***

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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
> >
> >To:  The Good People of the World!
[snip]


> ***{Does this mean Newman is now manufacturing and selling his motors? If
> so, what are the models that he has available, and how much do they cost?
> --Mitchell Jones}***

Great! Thanks for asking it. (plot is working) But not so easy to get answers. Only true believers could. You should demonstrate your belief by spending time, money, sponsoring, and by diluting your logic.

Ask to Hans! :)



hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 08:47:24 2000
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Is this link still operable?

Every time I try to open it, nothing but error messages come
up.



Steve Lajoie wrote:

> Just my view...
>
> http://www.eskimo.com/~lajoie/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 09:57:02 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:54:41 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: UPDATE FROM GERMANY
Cc: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>> >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000
>> >
>> >To:  The Good People of the World!
>[snip]
>
>
>> ***{Does this mean Newman is now manufacturing and selling his motors? If
>> so, what are the models that he has available, and how much do they cost?
>> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Great! Thanks for asking it. (plot is working) But not so easy to get
>answers. Only true believers could. You should demonstrate your belief by
>spending time, money, sponsoring, and by diluting your logic.

***{Sorry, that product is only available at full strength from this
manufacturer. Those who prefer the diluted form will have to go elsewhere.
:-) --MJ}***

>
>Ask to Hans! :)

***{Does anyone have Han's phone number? Does he have a website? What is
his last name? --MJ}***

>
>hamdi ucar

***{As I see it at this point in time, the Newman motor has a better chance
of being real than does CF. Thus I remain amazed that NERL, for example,
hasn't bothered to test the design described on the J.L. Naudin website,
which has been implicitly endorsed by Newman as a valid example of his
technology. While I have very little time to chase down this particular
rabbit myself, if Newman is selling full-sized motors in working condition
for a reasonable price, why not buy one and test it out? If it works, you
can use it to power your home; and if it doesn't, you can keep it as a
conversation piece. Either way, you win. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 10:18:16 2000
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Sorry about that. My Web browser can handle spaces just fine. 

Basically, I've tried to show that there is a critical density of 

rho=2.612*(Md*k*T/(n*2*pi*hbar^2)^3/2 
     = 2.738x10^30 atoms/meter^3

for deuterium at 156 Kelvins (cold, but not nanokelvins) that
should be found in deuterium loaded Pd..

The implications are that you can make a fusion reactor or
rocket engine or what ever by loading tiny pellets of Pd to
0.9 H/M loading (or applying the theory for a suitable cheap
metal, like Ti) and then cooling the pellets rapidly to 156 K.

The results would either be a tiny nuclear explosion, or 
the pellet would maintain a temperature well above 156 K
through nuclear fusion. 

You could use the heat from the explosion to run your generator
or push your space ship along. 

It ought to be simple to prove one way or the other. I intend to
do it myself with titanium if I can find some deuterium. 

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Might you be giving this "topic" far more than it deserves? Ya gotta
> just let go, man... <g>

---

Yeah, you're right.  I'm done.

---

John Fields

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Subject: Re: Gravity/AntiGravity Assisted Electric Motors/Generators
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To Vortex

Maybe Joe Newman is getting more than he bargained for.    :-)

At the optimum frequency of excitation, the Earth's Magnetogravity field
can exert 85 Pounds/ampere-meter on a current loop when it is
at right angles wrt the radial field of the Earth.

Going by Fran de Aquino's " 254 horsepower  Free  Energy Gravity Motor"
the ou claimed by Joe Newman  could be very real.

The 8.5 hertz gravitational frequency of  ALL of the ~ 2.0E21 kilograms
of electrons in the Earth or the 3.1 Megahertz gravitational frequency of
 the 5.98E24 kilograms of "quarks" in the Earth could be pulling on
the pulsed current loops of the motor or generator.

Interesting indeed. When Vince gets the AG experiment set up, we can
probably see this.  I Hope.

Regards,    Frederick





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http://www.users.uswest.net/~dascott/Sun.htm

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
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Subject: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
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	Dear Vo.,

	I missed the front of this.

	What IS Burnelli design...?   Please.



On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >> >In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >>mjones jump.net
> >> >writes:
> >> >
> >> >> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
> >> >>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
> >> >>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy
> >>when
> >> >>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
> >> >>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
> >> >
> >> >Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it
> >>with all
> >> >the
> >> >spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.
> >>
> >> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
> >> is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*.
> >
> >I fly in uncertified airplanes all the time. Every one that rolls off the
> >production line that doesn't have it's "ticket" is uncertified and
> >experimental until it is blessed by the FAA.
> 
> ***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an aircraft
> junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?
> 
> The answer: of course you don't. What  you are doing here, as is usual for
> you, is dropping the context. Vince was raising the possibility that the
> Burnelli which Briggs' friend flew was taken to a boneyard loaded with
> junk, to save freight costs, and I was responding to the point he raised.
> And now you have jumped in and started nattering on about utter
> irrelevancies.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sick of discussing this topic with you, so I'm setting a filter
> to delete any further posts that you make to this thread. You are, of
> course, free to waste someone else's time, if you can entice some other
> victim to roll around in the mud with you.
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> >
> >I know people who fly in experimental airplanes all the time too. They are
> >fine airplanes.
> 
> ***{Yup, and they were flying them off, fully loaded, to aircraft
> graveyards where they would be scrapped, right? --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >And some airplanes are sound, but not up to current regulations. I've
> >seen DC-3s (and a DC-2) that underwent modifications so it could meet
> >current regulations and fly again. Structure wise, they were almost as
> >sound as the day they were built. Neither one was a pressurized airplane,
> >and it's amazing how much stress and fatigue pressurizing a plane puts on
> >the airframe. I bet this Bernulli plane was right up there with the DC-3s
> >I've seen.
> >
> >Or is it not as well put together as a conventional DC-3? Never thought
> >I'd hear you say it was a piece of junk.
> 
> ***{Regardless of the quality of the design, once an aircraft is worn out
> to the point where it is too costly to operate and maintain, it becomes a
> piece of junk, destined either for a museum or a graveyard. When that
> happens, the pilot who flies it on its last journey can expect sloppy
> performance, and he cannot reasonably treat that performance as a measure
> of the way the same aircraft performed when it was new. --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >> If you
> >> load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes, of
> >> course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of those
> >> risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around pilons--but
> >> the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***
> >
> >Your assumptions are so off the wall that they amaze me.
> 
> ***{Your state of amazement is *exactly* as irrelevant to the issue here as
> virtually everything else you say. That's why I'm setting a filter to
> delete any further posts you make to this thread. Bye! --MJ}***
> 

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: Gravity/AntiGravity Assisted Electric Motors/Generators
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In a message dated 8/12/00 12:18:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> Going by Fran de Aquino's " 254 horsepower  Free  Energy Gravity Motor"
>  the ou claimed by Joe Newman  could be very real.
>  

I sure would like to see some critique/comments of the math that 
De Aquino uses in his papers. Horace? Anyone?

I'm trying to get a "feel" for your theory Fred and I believe 
it may be helpful to process ALL data, yours and De Aquino's
to do this.

De Aquino uses ELF (0.6 Hz) and iron core while Fred proposes
HF (~3.1 MHz) and air core. There may be a correlation here
and I am trying to see it. Please help us out Vortexians.

Here is a link to the De Aquino papers at the Los Alamos Labs
website:

http://arXiv.org/find/gr-qc/1/au:+De_Aquino_Fran/0/1/0/past/0/1

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <VCockeram aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Gravity/AntiGravity Assisted Electric Motors/Generators

Vince wrote:


> In a message dated 8/12/00 12:18:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Going by Fran de Aquino's " 254 horsepower  Free  Energy Gravity Motor"
> >  the ou claimed by Joe Newman  could be very real.
> >  
> 
> I sure would like to see some critique/comments of the math that 
> De Aquino uses in his papers. Horace? Anyone?

It's a lot easier to do the experiment than trying to wade through 
and understand some esoteric math.
> 
> I'm trying to get a "feel" for your theory Fred and I believe 
> it may be helpful to process ALL data, yours and De Aquino's
> to do this.

Maybe it's too simple.  Going by classical physics and taking a cue from
General Relativity the fundamental particles are in an Accelerated Reference Frame
and their "clocks" slow down from 1.7E22 Hz to ~ 8.5 Hz for the electrons
and 1.05E25 Hz to ~3.1 Megahertz for the quarks that make up a nucleus.

Those are the frequencies that they interact at, thus the extremely weak
gravitational force.
> 
> De Aquino uses ELF (0.6 Hz) and iron core while Fred proposes
> HF (~3.1 MHz) and air core. There may be a correlation here
> and I am trying to see it.

Of course, if you have a 0.6 hertz "pulse" it is bound to interact
with higher frequency pulses. But, you are wasting a ton of energy.
> 
> Here is a link to the De Aquino papers at the Los Alamos Labs
> website:
> 
> http://arXiv.org/find/gr-qc/1/au:+De_Aquino_Fran/0/1/0/past/0/1

Regards,    Frederick
> 
>   Regards,
>   Vince Cockeram
>   Las Vegas Nevada
>   702-254-2122
>   http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
>   <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
> Discharge</A>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 14:50:34 2000
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
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That is a good question; it was never really answered. It has something to
do with an expired pattent on a lifting body design.

What exactly the claim was was never answered. All we know is that it is
the victim of a grand conspiracy of facists and it turns out that I'm one
of th ee fascitst conspirators and didn't even know it. :-)

On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	I missed the front of this.
> 
> 	What IS Burnelli design...?   Please.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> > >On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > >
> > >> >In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > >>mjones jump.net
> > >> >writes:
> > >> >
> > >> >> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote, makes it
> > >> >>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the aircraft
> > >> >>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be sloppy
> > >>when
> > >> >>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a "repair
> > >> >>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
> > >> >
> > >> >Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill it
> > >>with all
> > >> >the
> > >> >spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.
> > >>
> > >> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a boneyard, it
> > >> is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece *unloaded*.
> > >
> > >I fly in uncertified airplanes all the time. Every one that rolls off the
> > >production line that doesn't have it's "ticket" is uncertified and
> > >experimental until it is blessed by the FAA.
> > 
> > ***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an aircraft
> > junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?
> > 
> > The answer: of course you don't. What  you are doing here, as is usual for
> > you, is dropping the context. Vince was raising the possibility that the
> > Burnelli which Briggs' friend flew was taken to a boneyard loaded with
> > junk, to save freight costs, and I was responding to the point he raised.
> > And now you have jumped in and started nattering on about utter
> > irrelevancies.
> > 
> > Anyway, I'm sick of discussing this topic with you, so I'm setting a filter
> > to delete any further posts that you make to this thread. You are, of
> > course, free to waste someone else's time, if you can entice some other
> > victim to roll around in the mud with you.
> > 
> > --Mitchell Jones}***
> > 
> > >
> > >I know people who fly in experimental airplanes all the time too. They are
> > >fine airplanes.
> > 
> > ***{Yup, and they were flying them off, fully loaded, to aircraft
> > graveyards where they would be scrapped, right? --MJ}***
> > 
> > >
> > >And some airplanes are sound, but not up to current regulations. I've
> > >seen DC-3s (and a DC-2) that underwent modifications so it could meet
> > >current regulations and fly again. Structure wise, they were almost as
> > >sound as the day they were built. Neither one was a pressurized airplane,
> > >and it's amazing how much stress and fatigue pressurizing a plane puts on
> > >the airframe. I bet this Bernulli plane was right up there with the DC-3s
> > >I've seen.
> > >
> > >Or is it not as well put together as a conventional DC-3? Never thought
> > >I'd hear you say it was a piece of junk.
> > 
> > ***{Regardless of the quality of the design, once an aircraft is worn out
> > to the point where it is too costly to operate and maintain, it becomes a
> > piece of junk, destined either for a museum or a graveyard. When that
> > happens, the pilot who flies it on its last journey can expect sloppy
> > performance, and he cannot reasonably treat that performance as a measure
> > of the way the same aircraft performed when it was new. --MJ}***
> > 
> > >
> > >> If you
> > >> load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes, of
> > >> course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of those
> > >> risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around pilons--but
> > >> the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***
> > >
> > >Your assumptions are so off the wall that they amaze me.
> > 
> > ***{Your state of amazement is *exactly* as irrelevant to the issue here as
> > virtually everything else you say. That's why I'm setting a filter to
> > delete any further posts you make to this thread. Bye! --MJ}***
> > 
> 
> 

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From: "Chalmers H. Goodlin" <goodlink mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
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Mr. Lajoie's cupidity in not knowing what the Burnelli principle of design
represents simply highlights his mal-education that I have pointed out
before.  He can remedy his problem by viewing aircrash.org which presents
the true Burnelli story with appropriate graphics.

Chalmers H. Goodlin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?


>
> That is a good question; it was never really answered. It has something to
> do with an expired pattent on a lifting body design.
>
> What exactly the claim was was never answered. All we know is that it is
> the victim of a grand conspiracy of facists and it turns out that I'm one
> of th ee fascitst conspirators and didn't even know it. :-)
>
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, John Schnurer wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Vo.,
> >
> > I missed the front of this.
> >
> > What IS Burnelli design...?   Please.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> > > >On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> >In a message dated 8/10/00 8:58:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > > >>mjones jump.net
> > > >> >writes:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> The above statement, which Briggs presented as a verbatim quote,
makes it
> > > >> >>  crystal clear that the guy wasn't claiming to have flown the
aircraft
> > > >> >>  empty, noted sloppy handling, and *inferred* that it would be
sloppy
> > > >>when
> > > >> >>  loaded. Instead, he was claiming to have flown it loaded--to a
"repair
> > > >> >>  facility," or a "museum," or a "boneyard," no less!
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Well, yeah....if I'm transporting it to a boneyard I'm gonna fill
it
> > > >>with all
> > > >> >the
> > > >> >spare parts I can. Saves transporting by commercial carrier.
> > > >>
> > > >> ***{If you are flying and out-of-certification aircraft to a
boneyard, it
> > > >> is shot, and you will be lucky to get there in one piece
*unloaded*.
> > > >
> > > >I fly in uncertified airplanes all the time. Every one that rolls off
the
> > > >production line that doesn't have it's "ticket" is uncertified and
> > > >experimental until it is blessed by the FAA.
> > >
> > > ***{Yup, and you load them full of spare parts and fly them to an
aircraft
> > > junkyard, so they can be scrapped, right?
> > >
> > > The answer: of course you don't. What  you are doing here, as is usual
for
> > > you, is dropping the context. Vince was raising the possibility that
the
> > > Burnelli which Briggs' friend flew was taken to a boneyard loaded with
> > > junk, to save freight costs, and I was responding to the point he
raised.
> > > And now you have jumped in and started nattering on about utter
> > > irrelevancies.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I'm sick of discussing this topic with you, so I'm setting a
filter
> > > to delete any further posts that you make to this thread. You are, of
> > > course, free to waste someone else's time, if you can entice some
other
> > > victim to roll around in the mud with you.
> > >
> > > --Mitchell Jones}***
> > >
> > > >
> > > >I know people who fly in experimental airplanes all the time too.
They are
> > > >fine airplanes.
> > >
> > > ***{Yup, and they were flying them off, fully loaded, to aircraft
> > > graveyards where they would be scrapped, right? --MJ}***
> > >
> > > >
> > > >And some airplanes are sound, but not up to current regulations. I've
> > > >seen DC-3s (and a DC-2) that underwent modifications so it could meet
> > > >current regulations and fly again. Structure wise, they were almost
as
> > > >sound as the day they were built. Neither one was a pressurized
airplane,
> > > >and it's amazing how much stress and fatigue pressurizing a plane
puts on
> > > >the airframe. I bet this Bernulli plane was right up there with the
DC-3s
> > > >I've seen.
> > > >
> > > >Or is it not as well put together as a conventional DC-3? Never
thought
> > > >I'd hear you say it was a piece of junk.
> > >
> > > ***{Regardless of the quality of the design, once an aircraft is worn
out
> > > to the point where it is too costly to operate and maintain, it
becomes a
> > > piece of junk, destined either for a museum or a graveyard. When that
> > > happens, the pilot who flies it on its last journey can expect sloppy
> > > performance, and he cannot reasonably treat that performance as a
measure
> > > of the way the same aircraft performed when it was new. --MJ}***
> > >
> > > >
> > > >> If you
> > > >> load it up with spare parts, then you must have a death wish. (Yes,
of
> > > >> course: it is *possible* that the guy did that. Maybe he is one of
those
> > > >> risk-taking, crazy fools that used to fly upside-down around
pilons--but
> > > >> the odds is agin' it. :-) --MJ}***
> > > >
> > > >Your assumptions are so off the wall that they amaze me.
> > >
> > > ***{Your state of amazement is *exactly* as irrelevant to the issue
here as
> > > virtually everything else you say. That's why I'm setting a filter to
> > > delete any further posts you make to this thread. Bye! --MJ}***
> > >
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 18:40:11 2000
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http://www.electric-universe.de/frame/frameset.html

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        goodlink mindspring.com
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Early in July I decided that this "Facist airfoil conspiracy" thread had
gone on long enough.  It has nothing to do with experimental testing of
physics anomalies, it showed no signs of dying out on its own, and most
important, the participants' behavior was DEFINITELY NOT anything like the
"respectful debate" required by the forum rules.  Flamers are not
tolerated here. The thread was moved to vortexb-L.

Now it is back again.

Perhaps because I govern vortex-L lightly, you assume that you can ignore
my decisions?  Let me make the situation a bit clearer.

The next person who posts any messages resembling the "facist lifting
body" thread will be unsubscribed from vortex-L for one month.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 20:02:07 2000
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
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On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Chalmers H. Goodlin wrote:

> Mr. Lajoie's cupidity in not knowing what the Burnelli principle of design
> represents simply highlights his mal-education that I have pointed out
> before.  He can remedy his problem by viewing aircrash.org which presents
> the true Burnelli story with appropriate graphics.

You've never specified exactly what the Burnelli patent claims are,
nor does the conspircy theory website "aircrash.org". 

One wonders why you didn't just settle it with a straight answer.
Well, not really...




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 20:25:14 2000
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Subject: Thanks Vortex
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:23:29 PDT
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Just a note of thanks for some actual discussion here on Whirlpower, a rare 
thing.  And thanks goes to John "El Presidente" I guess for puting me down 
long enough for others to notice.  If only there could be discusion without 
personal attacks.

I don't mind if someone wants to disagree with Whirlpower and cite a point 
of disagreement.  That's great.  A point can then be discussed.  And it 
means they have at least taken a few minutes to have some knowledge of 
Whirlpower to have something to disagree about.

That makes a good discussion.

So, we saw there was an attempt that had great interest in tapping a tornado 
type vortex here before I got here.  There have been others too throughout 
the century.

But, there is no data on anyone trying a whirlpool.  There is no data 
science even knows what a whirlpool is.  That to me shows a huge gap in 
scientific exploration.  I am closing that gap and it appears I have built 
the first whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.

If you ever thought there was a chance to tap a vortex and you can't see 
what I am saying it seems to me you just don't want to.  Because children 
have said they see it.  And many others.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 21:57:43 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Cease VORTEX-L "facist airfoil conspiracy" thread NOW
Resent-Message-ID: <"1-tOd.0.Vi4.SfYbv" mx1>
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>Early in July I decided that this "Facist airfoil conspiracy" thread had
>gone on long enough.  It has nothing to do with experimental testing of
>physics anomalies, it showed no signs of dying out on its own, and most
>important, the participants' behavior was DEFINITELY NOT anything like the
>"respectful debate" required by the forum rules.  Flamers are not
>tolerated here. The thread was moved to vortexb-L.
>
>Now it is back again.
>
>Perhaps because I govern vortex-L lightly, you assume that you can ignore
>my decisions?

***{I don't think anybody assumed that at all. Bill Briggs re-started the
thread and, so far as I can tell, he had it in his head that the thread was
back on the main list, apparently with your approval. I doubted that, but I
also suspected that the server was acting up again, and that I might have
missed messages, so I began my very first response by focusing on that
possibility. That was your cue to step in and indicate that I had *not*
missed anything, and that it was *not* OK to continue here. When you said
nothing, I, and apparently everyone else, simply assumed that the thread
was back on vortex-l again. (You can verify this chronology by looking at
the old messages, if you like.) While it is clear at this point that this
was a wrong assumption, I think you need to be aware that there was nothing
personal about what happened. It's just a bunch of people looking around
and noticing that others are doing something, and assuming that they
wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't OK. As to how Bill Briggs became
convinced that the topic was back on the main list, I can't say, but I
assume that he, too, made an innocent mistake based on a misinterpretation
of some fact. --MJ}***

Let me make the situation a bit clearer.
>
>The next person who posts any messages resembling the "facist lifting
>body" thread will be unsubscribed from vortex-L for one month.

***{That's fine with me, and, I assume, with everyone else. Remember: most
of us, myself included, voted to divert this thread to vortexb-l more than
a month ago, and I think we will all be perfectly happy to return it there.
I know that I will be, because it is crystal clear that that is where it
belongs. This is *not* a problem. --MJ}***

>
>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 23:17:25 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <f2.1c26ea0.26c796a0 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 02:13:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Gravity/AntiGravity Assisted Electric Motors/Generators
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In a message dated 8/12/00 2:45:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> It's a lot easier to do the experiment than trying to wade through 
>  and understand some esoteric math.

I have found that doing accurate science is hard. Me, I have try to
really get a feel for whatever process is going on. I expect it will 
difficult for me to go through the math part of his theory but that's
not going to stop me. I want to clearly get a "feeling" for yours and
De Aquino's.  
>  > 
>  > I'm trying to get a "feel" for your theory Fred and I believe 
>  > it may be helpful to process ALL data, yours and De Aquino's
>  > to do this.
>  
>  Maybe it's too simple.  Going by classical physics and taking a cue from
>  General Relativity the fundamental particles are in an Accelerated 
Reference 
> Frame
>  and their "clocks" slow down from 1.7E22 Hz to ~ 8.5 Hz for the electrons
>  and 1.05E25 Hz to ~3.1 Megahertz for the quarks that make up a nucleus.

Hmmm...I wonder about a ~3.1 MHz carrier amplitude modulated at ~8.5 Hz...?
That BK will do that...or...frequency modulate at a ~3.1 MHz center frequency
at ~8.5 HZ....
>  
>  Those are the frequencies that they interact at, thus the extremely weak
>  gravitational force.
>  > 
>  > De Aquino uses ELF (0.6 Hz) and iron core while Fred proposes
>  > HF (~3.1 MHz) and air core. There may be a correlation here
>  > and I am trying to see it.
>  
>  Of course, if you have a 0.6 hertz "pulse" it is bound to interact
>  with higher frequency pulses. But, you are wasting a ton of energy.

Yeah Fred, I was also wondering happens to all those kilowatts
he's pumping into that powdered iron. Now I see the reason for the 
"Ferro ceramic" ELF antenna in the motor. How hot would that sucker run?

He is not pulsing. It was plain vanilla 60Hz for the "System G". He
proposes a motor that will use a 0.6 Hz sine wave.  

>  > 
>  > Here is a link to the De Aquino papers at the Los Alamos Labs
>  > website:
>  > 
>  > http://arXiv.org/find/gr-qc/1/au:+De_Aquino_Fran/0/1/0/past/0/1
>  
>  Regards,    Frederick
>  > 


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 12 23:19:43 2000
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: BEC's in CF temperature Pd ?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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2.7x10^30 atom/m^3 is some 30 to 50 times more atoms per unit volume than
there are in solids at low pressure (e.g. 1 bar). Therefore, 0.9 H/M loading
is short of this critical density by about the same large factor.

> Basically, I've tried to show that there is a critical density of 
> 
> rho=2.612*(Md*k*T/(n*2*pi*hbar^2)^3/2 
>      = 2.738x10^30 atoms/meter^3
> 
> for deuterium at 156 Kelvins (cold, but not nanokelvins) that
> should be found in deuterium loaded Pd..
> 
> The implications are that you can make a fusion reactor or
> rocket engine or what ever by loading tiny pellets of Pd to
> 0.9 H/M loading (or applying the theory for a suitable cheap
> metal, like Ti) and then cooling the pellets rapidly to 156 K.
> 
> The results would either be a tiny nuclear explosion, or 
> the pellet would maintain a temperature well above 156 K
> through nuclear fusion. 
> 
> You could use the heat from the explosion to run your generator
> or push your space ship along. 
> 
> It ought to be simple to prove one way or the other. I intend to
> do it myself with titanium if I can find some deuterium. 
> 


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 00:06:13 2000
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Hi All,
   Ok, now the psychics are getting into the act! Check this out.
MJ

http://www.mountbaldy.com/ZPED/free.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 02:45:08 2000
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Again, that seems to be about the cone of the vortex.  That is what all 
other vortex type, spinning type, gyroscopic type, funnel type, sink drain 
type, Schauberger, Russel, Evert, Buamgartner, Ash, ect. way ect. Chaos 
Theory, type work is based on.  None have ever worked (that is commonly 
known).

But who knows what is done in secret.  And I have found the stuff that 
doesn't actually say or show anything get all sorts of attention.

My work plainly visable, no secret, simple to understand, backup testimony 
from lots of knowlegable folks, brand new in concept, is generally ingored.  
Lots of personal attacks on me, cat calls, name calling, put downs, galore.

But that is how history shows it too.  The real stuff is put down and 
scorned.

David


>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>
>Subject: Remote Viewing Free Energy Devices....
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 03:11:17 -0400
>
>
>Hi All,
>    Ok, now the psychics are getting into the act! Check this out.
>MJ
>
>http://www.mountbaldy.com/ZPED/free.html
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 03:45:14 2000
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 03:44:11 PDT
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About the cone of the vortex, even back to Pharoah's Pump, all vortex, Chaos 
Theory science is about the downward corkscrew spiral in the vortex.

What my research shows is that there is no science on the dual radial arm 
pattern on the horizontal axis of a whirlpool, or even regognition of what a 
whirlpool is.

For a clearer picture:

Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.

The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
lip.

        __      __
         "\    /"
        <' \  / '>
            \/


The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
inward spin.



____________E______________     ________________E_____________
            >              \   /               <
                         <' \ / '>
     ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^

            <                                   >

The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
the frame dragging wobble effect.

A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.


       ____                                         ____
        "  ---                                   ---  "
              ''''''....              ....''''''
                        ''''\    /''''
                   <'        \  /        '>
                              \/
                               \
                               /

This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.

The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
flusher is not a whirlpool.

This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
it is not, very different.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 09:48:33 2000
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From: "Chalmers H. Goodlin" <goodlink mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1000812195825.13185A-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:40:52 -0400
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Mr. Lajoie and Mr. Schnurer have both asked, "What is a Burnelli design"

The Burnelli design principles provide for a lifting body aerofoil like
fuselage, made up of the bulk of the aircraft structure which surrounds the
occupants in a safety cage in the event of accident.  The engines and
landing gear are attached to this main structure with the outboard wings,
devoid of engine and landing gear cutouts, acting as high volume fuel tanks
which are isolated from the major fire sources, the engines and landing
gear.

Depending on mission role, the lifting body fuselage provides about 50% of
the aircraft's aerodynamic lift which enables Burnelli aircraft to take-off
and land at much slower speeds than conventional counterparts without
sacrificing cruise speeds. The lower take-off speeds vastly
reduce the stress on the tires which is a very serious problem with current
airliners.

For a given power, Burnelli airplanes offer approximately double the
payload, double the internal volume and double the useable floor area over
the conventional counterpart.

The engines on Burnelli planes are mounted close to the centerline of thrust
and, therefore, Burnelli airplanes do not suffer from the dangerous
assymetric engine out control problems associated with those conventional
designs which have engines mounted way outboard of the center line of
thrust.

The much increased internal volume and floor area in Burnelli airplanes
eliminate the sardine seating commonly found in current airliners which is
the fundamental cause of "Air Rage."  The increased space also permits easy
crew access to electrical connections, black boxes, the hydraulic seystem
and the landing gear while in flight.

The Burnelli design offers unparalelled crashworthiness as demonstrated in
the 1935 crash of the Burnelli UB-14.  The aircraft struck the ground at
about 135 mph, cartwheeled across the field, but the fuselage remained
intact, there was no fire even though high octane fuel was used, and the
crew walked out unscathed.  Compare that to a similar NW Airlines MD-80crash
at Detroit a few years ago where everyone was killed, excepting an infant
protected by the mother's body.  An eyewitness remarked, "When it hit the
ground, the airplane crumpled up like a piece of paper."

There is a colored comparison of the Burnelli GB888A with the Boeing 747
500/600 to be seen on the aircrash.org website which I encourage interested
parties to view.  The common sense practicability of the Burnelli
configuration is obvious.  Burnelli planes also take up less ramp space than
their conventional counterparts.

Mr. Lajoie keeps talking about patents.  The situation is simple;  The
Burnelli Company has been denied the right to utilize it's patents during
their legal lifetime by illegal activities of the Department of Defense and
the industry.  Consequently, it is pointless to keep harping about patents
at this stage.  The important thing is to concentrate on aircraft safety and
efficiency.  With that in focus, one can acho the statement made to me at
Hamburg in February, 1983 by Dr, Klug, the Chief of Aircraft Design at
Deutsch Airbus; "The only was to make a meaningfull improvement in air
transport safety and economy is to implement the lifting body design"

Chalmers H. Goodlin



From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?


> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Chalmers H. Goodlin wrote:
>
> > Mr. Lajoie's cupidity in not knowing what the Burnelli principle of
design
> > represents simply highlights his mal-education that I have pointed out
> > before.  He can remedy his problem by viewing aircrash.org which
presents
> > the true Burnelli story with appropriate graphics.
>
> You've never specified exactly what the Burnelli patent claims are,
> nor does the conspircy theory website "aircrash.org".
>
> One wonders why you didn't just settle it with a straight answer.
> Well, not really...
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 10:11:01 2000
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Isn't a "flying wing" a burnelli design...???.....steve

"Chalmers H. Goodlin" wrote:

> Mr. Lajoie and Mr. Schnurer have both asked, "What is a Burnelli design"
>
> The Burnelli design principles provide for a lifting body aerofoil like
> fuselage, made up of the bulk of the aircraft structure which surrounds the

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "aircrash" <aircrash aircrash.org>
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You said it, Steve.  I didn't.

Best regards

Chalmers H. Goodlin


----- Original Message -----
From: "sno" <sno groupz.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?


> Isn't a "flying wing" a burnelli design...???.....steve
>
> "Chalmers H. Goodlin" wrote:
>
> > Mr. Lajoie and Mr. Schnurer have both asked, "What is a Burnelli design"
> >
> > The Burnelli design principles provide for a lifting body aerofoil like
> > fuselage, made up of the bulk of the aircraft structure which surrounds
the
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 11:31:22 2000
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Subject: Strange Twist -- FORBIDDEN --
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:29:18 PDT
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Funny thing just happened.

If any took the link that independently backs up by Whirlpower Declaration;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

It now come up FORBIDDEN.   Whatever that means.

I do have the photo up at my site.

The plot thickens.

David Dennard
http://www.whilrpower.cc
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 11:44:38 2000
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On Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 11:29:18AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> Funny thing just happened.
> 
> If any took the link that independently backs up by Whirlpower Declaration;
> 
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
> 
> It now come up FORBIDDEN.   Whatever that means.
> 
> I do have the photo up at my site.
> 
> The plot thickens.

Speak to the sysadmin at the the-strange.com.  It looks like a file
permission has been changed.  It may be a configuration error.  Maybe
they're doing some maintainence.

Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 13 14:50:57 2000
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Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:48:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
Cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>,
        Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>,
        "Chalmers H. Goodlin" <goodlink mindspring.com>, sno <sno@GroupZ.net>
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To John Schnurer, Stephen Lajoie, Chalmers Goodlin, and Sno. I assume that
you guys missed Bill Beaty's recent message, in which he threatened to boot
anybody off the list for a month who posted anything else about Burnelli on
the vortex-l list. Please change any future posts on this topic to
vortexb-l.

To Bill: I hope you will show mercy on these guys, since they obviously
missed your message. *Nobody on this list, I'm quite sure, doubts that you,
being the person who finances and maintains this group, have the ultimate
authority over the way it is run*. Please understand, however, that out
here in the hinterlands, people are easily distracted, and they do not
notice every warning sign as they drive down the road, including those that
say: "Observe warning signs. State law."

Please, massa, have mercy on these poor, ignorant folks. :-)

--Mitchell Jones

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> To John Schnurer, Stephen Lajoie, Chalmers Goodlin, and Sno. I assume that
> you guys missed Bill Beaty's recent message, in which he threatened to boot
> anybody off the list for a month who posted anything else about Burnelli on
> the vortex-l list.

John Schnurer's latest message on this issue was posted five hours
before Bill's message. As such, he is exempt from disciplinary action. 

Not a flame.

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 06:50:16 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
would be possible in real life.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22306-2000Aug14.html

Ailing Russian Nuclear Sub on Ocean Floor
 
By Barry Renfrew
Associated Press Writer
Monday, August 14, 2000; 8:46 AM 


MOSCOW –– A Russian nuclear submarine malfunctioned while on operations
above the Arctic Circle, and was trapped Monday on the ocean bottom with
more than 100 crew members aboard, a navy spokesman said. 


The Oscar-class submarine was not carrying any nuclear weapons and there
was no immediate danger of radiation leaks or an explosion, said Igor
Dygalo, head of the navy press service. The navy declined to say what went
wrong and forced the submarine to the ocean floor Sunday in the Barents
Sea, describing it only as a "malfunction." . . .

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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:02:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: What is " Burnelli Design" ?
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>> To John Schnurer, Stephen Lajoie, Chalmers Goodlin, and Sno. I assume that
>> you guys missed Bill Beaty's recent message, in which he threatened to boot
>> anybody off the list for a month who posted anything else about Burnelli on
>> the vortex-l list.
>
>John Schnurer's latest message on this issue was posted five hours
>before Bill's message. As such, he is exempt from disciplinary action.
>
>Not a flame.
>
>--Kyle R. Mcallister

***{You are right. (Sorry John! :-)

Also, the others are all likely innocent as well, since they may not have
seen Bill's post until *after* they sent their e-mail. My e-mail reader,
for example, sends out whatever messages I have queued, whenever I ask it
to check for mail. Thus if I have had a message sitting in my queue for two
days, it gets sent out, and gets a time stamp, at the time I get my mail,
but *before* I have had an opportunity to read that mail. Result: it is
possible that these three guys sent out their messages violating Bill's
warning *at the time* their e-mail reader obtained Bill's warning message,
and hence before they read it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 08:27:41 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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>Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
>techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
>techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
>would be possible in real life.

The article explains that a US rescue sub was not requested, and that if it
had been, the hatches are incompatible with Russian subs.  As for the Rad
leaks, and the possibility of the sub being armed with nukes, one only has
to remember Chernobyl to get an idea of what the Russian official statements
would be as opposed to the reality of the situation.  CNN reported very
early this morning  that the sub involved in a much larger operation.

Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 08:34:54 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Gravity/Antigravity Assisted Electric Motors/Generators
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:25:45 -0700
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To Vortex:

As previously posted, I think the current loops in an electric motor or
generator will experience an added Torque due to the gravity/antigravity
effect on a current loop:

Torque, T = IAB sin theta +  r [1.0E-7 * I * L * 0.02583 *Em/R^2] sin theta

Where I = loop current  (amperes)
           A = loop area  (meters^2)
           B = magnetic flux density  (tesla)
           L = loop length    (meters)
           r = loop "radius"   (meters)
           Em = Earth's Mass (5.98E24 Kg)
           R = Earth's Radius (6.38E6 Meters)
           theta = the angle between the magnet field lines and the plane of
                       current loop or the angle between the plane of the
                       current loop and the Earth's radial gravity field.

IOW, when the motor or generator windings (current loops) are optimally arranged wrt the
Earth's gravitational field there should be an ou yield in their output.

Regards,     Frederick

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A real good place for a physics short course, etc.

 http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/advanced_physics/11944

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 08:46:14 2000
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:39:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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>>Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
>>techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
>>techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
>>would be possible in real life.
>
>The article explains that a US rescue sub was not requested, and that if it
>had been, the hatches are incompatible with Russian subs.  As for the Rad
>leaks, and the possibility of the sub being armed with nukes, one only has
>to remember Chernobyl to get an idea of what the Russian official statements
>would be as opposed to the reality of the situation.  CNN reported very
>early this morning  that the sub involved in a much larger operation.
>
>Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
>done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.

***{An undersea nuke of moderate size would produce a tsunami more than a
mile high, and would wipe out the coastal population of the planet--several
billion people, more than likely. Hell, the sieche waves themselves would
likely reverberate for months. We damn well better hope no one ever does
such a test. It would wipe out civilization and return mankind to the stone
age. --MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Michael T Huffman wrote:
> 
> >Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
> >techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
> >techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
> >would be possible in real life.
> 
> The article explains that a US rescue sub was not requested, and that if it
> had been, the hatches are incompatible with Russian subs.  

<snip>

But they had a compatible one in "Hunt for Red October"!

Terry

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Subject: test......nothing in it.......
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test.........
NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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> Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
> done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.


I believe the French did underwater nuclear tests. If I remember right,
there was a big debate over whether they should do the test, or not. I
saw something about that on television once.

--Kyle R. Mcallister

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Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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>> Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
>> done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.
>
>
>I believe the French did underwater nuclear tests. If I remember right,
>there was a big debate over whether they should do the test, or not. I
>saw something about that on television once.

***{A moderate sized nuke would be several megatons (U.S. B-52's used to
carry several 20 megatonners), and would raise a mind-bogglingly gigantic
tsunami. Any actual test would thus have to be tiny by comparison even with
the Hiroshima or Nagasaki bombs, or else the test would have to be in a
lake rather than in the ocean. Otherwise, believe me, we would all have
heard about it. :-) --MJ}***

>
>--Kyle R. Mcallister

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Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
>done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.

Nowadays they would not do it because it would hurt the environment. In the
1950s, I presume they did not do it because it would be difficult to
collect data from the explosion. The purpose of the tests was collect data
and improve the state of the art of bomb-making and physics. As Teller put
it: "The really important results of the test consist in marks on
photographic plates. . . . In those fractions of a second [during the test
explosion] another stone was added to the structure which we may call
astrophysical engineering." - Teller and Latter, "Our Nuclear Future,"
(Criterion Books, 1958), p. 80

There was one test at 15,000 feet in 1957, which did not bother the people
on the ground a bit, according to T&L (p. 143). The shock wave "was just a
loud noise" and there was no significant radiation or fallout.

- Jed

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these were tests done underground beneath the 

ocean floor, not in the ocean itself

i think the us did these also

ok to contaminate the ocean but not the atmosphere?!??

"  I'm from the gub'mint and i"m here to help"


> ***{A moderate sized nuke would be several megatons (U.S. B-52's used to
> carry several 20 megatonners), and would raise a mind-bogglingly gigantic
> tsunami. Any actual test would thus have to be tiny by comparison even
with

> >
> >--Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 
> 


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Hi,
   Not that I am at all interested in Decker's thoughts on ANYTHING, but
since some of you have been interested in the dingle water car and this
seems to contain information on the HOW of that device that I hadn't
seen posted before I am reluctantly posting this (It was forwarded to
me).
MJ

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Hi  Michael

I got this the other day  looks interesting    what do u reckon ???

Paul M
----- Original Message -----
From: <DMBoss1021 aol.com>
To: <Interact keelynet.com>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 2:59 AM
Subject: [Keelynet] Re: more on the Dingel water car


Hi Folks:

Jerry writes:

<<
How it works <[the Dingel process]>

According to him, his reactor uses electricity from a
12-volt car battery to transform saltwater or ordinary
tap water with salt into deuterium oxide or heavy
water, which is chiefly used as a coolant for nuclear
reactors. Deuterium is actually a hydrogen isotope
with twice the mass of ordinary hydrogen, and heavy
water is produced when the hydrogen atoms in H2O are
replaced with deuterium.

"The electricity from the battery splits the water
into its hydrogen and oxygen components, and this
hydrogen can then be used to power the car engine.

Normally it takes temperatures of about 5,400 degrees
Fahrenheit to generate hydrogen from water, but here I
am just using an ordinary 12-volt battery," he
claimed.

Just how this kind of chemical reaction is possible
using an ordinary car battery is, of course, the
secret behind Dingel's invention--and the kind of
claim that leads people to dismiss him as a crackpot
and charlatan.
>>
_____________________________

Just a speculation, but he gives a clue to the possible mechanism of his
"reactor" in the statement about "5,400 degrees F" - if it was electrolysis,
there is no such temperature increase - so simple electrolysis is likely not
the means.

More likely is using the 12V DC output from car battery to produce an arc
discharge in the water, which will dissociate the water, and other
compounds,
and produce the elevated temperatures he is mentioning.

See the following, which not only produces a fuel gas, but (independently
verified) over unity in such reactors, as well:

http://home1.gte.net/ibr/ir00020a.htm

<<"PART 2: SANTILLI'S PLASMA-ARC-FLOW REACTORS, ...
Following systematic research initiated in 1978 at Harvard University and
conducted under various research contracts from the U. S. Department of
Energy (contracts numbers ER-78-S-02-47420.A000, AS02-78ER04742,
DE-ACO2-80ER10651, DE-ACO2-80ER-10651.A001, and DE-ACO2-80ER10651.A002), Dr.
Santilli has concluded that one of the most efficient ways to synthesize new
combustible gases in large volumes and in short periods of time, is via the
use of an electric arc within specially selected liquids (see Refs. [1,2] at
the end of this Part 2).

The above conclusion has been confirmed by systematic experimentations and
measurements recently conducted at Toups Technology Licensing (TTL), a
public
company in Largo, Florida (see the web site in Ref. [3]). Therefore, long
term basic research and recent industrial developments have established that
electric arcs within liquids are dramatically more efficient for the
production of combustible gases than any other know process, such as
chemical
synthesis, electrolysis, or other means."
>>
_________________________________

The above link describes the process in detail, with supporting math, and
experimental evidence.  Also the energy content of the resulting fuel gas is
found to be higher than that of natural gas, and the process is
independently
verified as being over unity - as to energy needed to produce it, vs energy
output.

There are also curious new properties of the resulting gases - strange
magnetic properties, as the transformation has occurred in the very high
magnetic field of the arc, which seems to have altered the nature of the
atoms, or molecules.

This "nuclear" alteration found in the Santilli process, could be what
Dingel
has deduced as being "deuterium".  But lacking good funding, and sensitive
equipment, he has not been able to determine the exact nature of the odd,
"cold nuclear reactions". (On the other hand, if these high energy
conditions
in the plasma produce some nuclear changes, as Santilli shows, then perhaps
Dingel's process is producing deuterium oxide?) (and cold nuclear reactions
[transmutations] have been shown to occur routinely in biological systems,
by
Kervran, and others - and all bio systems do use electrolytic reactions,
albiet at much lower temps, and without plasmas)

Santilli's findings about strange new properties of the resulting matter,
sounds similar to the effects of "Brown's Gas".
_______________________________

<<
2.2: MAIN FEATURES OF SANTILLI PLASMA-ARC-FLOW REACTORS
The production of a combustible gas via an underwater arc is known since the
past century (see Sect. 2.9 on patents). The main processes are the
following. The arc first decomposes water molecules and the carbon
electrodes
into their atomic constituents, H, O, and C. When exposed to sufficiently
large DC currents, these atoms are then ionized (i.e., stripped of of their
electrons), resulting in a plasma in the immediate vicinity of the arc,
which
is composed of mostly naked h, O, C nuclei and electrons at about 7,000
degrees F.

When exiting the plasma, nuclei immediately reacquire electrons from the
electron rich surroundings (via electron capture), and cool down in the
surrounding water. At this point various reactions take place, such as: the
"burning back" of H and O into water; the formation of CO; the subsequent
oxidation of CO into CO_2; and other processes.

The gas produced by such a process bubble to the surface, where it can be
collected in a variety of means, stored in conventional tanks, and used for
automotive fuel, metal cutting, cooking fuel, electric generators, etc.

The above process is notoriously inefficient for the production of
combustible gases. In fact, said process is grossly under-unity, that is,
only a small fraction of the original electric energy is converted into gas,
which gas, therefore, has a high cost. Moreover, the process is known to
produce a gas whose combustion exhausts contain more CO_2 than that in
fossil
fuel exhausts, thus being environmentally unacceptable.
>>
____________________________________

It turns out that a simple alteration in the cell geometry, and mass
transfer
characteristics (the fluid flow through the reaction zone), result in the
desired objectives, and the bonus of over unity:

<<
In essence, the underwater arc is indeed efficient for the separation of
water. However, most of H and O gases burn back to water, since they are
created in the presence of the electric arc, thus decreasing dramatically
the
efficiency in the production of usable gases. Moreover, a large percentage
of
CO is oxidized into CO_2 also because CO and O remains in the presence of
the
electric arc. This results in an additional loss of efficiency because CO_2
is not combustible, while the resulting gas is environmentally unacceptable
for the reason indicated in Sect. 1.1 (green house effect) bigger than that
caused by gasoline.

In different terms, the known large glow produced by an underwater arc is
visible evidence of the inefficiency of the process, because the glow is
evidence of burning usable H and O gases, oxidizing CO into CO_2 and other
efficiency decreasing processes.

Dr. Santilli has resolved these problems by forcing the liquid to be flown
through the electric arc, hence the name of PlasmaArcFlowâ"¢ Reactor or
Technology. In fact, the burning of H and O back to water is possible when
the liquid surrounding the arc is stationary. On the contrary, when the
liquid is forced to flow through the electric arc, the majority of the H and
O gases are removed from the arc, thus preventing their "burning back" into
water. Moreover, when the plasma is sufficiently rich in carbon, the
affinity
between C and O is notoriously bigger than that between H and O. Therefore,
the carbon removes the available oxygen to form CO, thus resulting in a
fully
combustible mixture of H and CO, which has no carcinogenic substance in its
exhausts, thus verifying Requirement 1 of Sect. 1.2.
>>
_____________________________

The process can also be used to recycle waste materials, and polluted water.

Sincerely,

DMBoss1021



--------------7DF89566976725B4898F758C--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 13:33:05 2000
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:30:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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>Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>>Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
>>done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.
>
>Nowadays they would not do it because it would hurt the environment. In the
>1950s, I presume they did not do it because it would be difficult to
>collect data from the explosion. The purpose of the tests was collect data
>and improve the state of the art of bomb-making and physics. As Teller put
>it: "The really important results of the test consist in marks on
>photographic plates. . . . In those fractions of a second [during the test
>explosion] another stone was added to the structure which we may call
>astrophysical engineering." - Teller and Latter, "Our Nuclear Future,"
>(Criterion Books, 1958), p. 80
>
>There was one test at 15,000 feet in 1957, which did not bother the people
>on the ground a bit, according to T&L (p. 143). The shock wave "was just a
>loud noise" and there was no significant radiation or fallout.
>
>- Jed

***{Underwater tests have been outlawed by treaty since 1963. However, the
U.S. did an underwater test in the Bikini lagoon (the Baker test) in 1946.
This, of course, is like a test in a lake, and would not raise much of a
tsunami, due to the rock immediately below. On the other hand, I did find a
record of a surprisingly large shot--30 kilotons--done by the U.S. in the
ocean 500 miles southwest of San Diego, in 1955. This one, however, was so
deep (about 2000 feet), that the enormous pressure apparently prevented the
production of a large fireball, and, hence, there was no large hump of
water on the surface above it, the subsequent collapse of which could
produce a tsunami. Thinking about the issue in that light, it is apparent
that there is a depth which, for a given size of bomb, will maximize the
size of the resulting wave, and other depths will have lessened effects.
Thus while disaster is not guaranteed, it is most assuredly possible.
However, I am sufficiently surprised by what I am reading that it is time
to run some numbers, to see how dangerous this sort of explosion really is.

Suppose, therefore, that we raise a cubic mile of ocean water to a height
of 1 mile above sea level. The energy required will be [(2.54)(12)(5280)]^3
= 4.17x10^15 calories. Since 1 megaton (Mt), by definition, is 10^15
calories, that means we will need a 4.15 Mt blast to get the job done,
assuming all the effect goes into lift and none into heating the water.
Since much of the effect will go into heating, it follows that we would
need a bit larger blast than I originally thought, to create a mile high
tsunami. The downside of this calculation, however, is this: it is clearly
possible, with existing nuclear weapons technology, to produce a killer
wave of such magnitude--which means: we now have the capability to end
civilization with a single thermonuclear blast.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 13:38:40 2000
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Hunt for Red October?
MJ

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
> techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
> techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
> would be possible in real life.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22306-2000Aug14.html
>
> Ailing Russian Nuclear Sub on Ocean Floor
>
> By Barry Renfrew
> Associated Press Writer
> Monday, August 14, 2000; 8:46 AM
>
> MOSCOW –– A Russian nuclear submarine malfunctioned while on operations
> above the Arctic Circle, and was trapped Monday on the ocean bottom with
> more than 100 crew members aboard, a navy spokesman said.
>
> The Oscar-class submarine was not carrying any nuclear weapons and there
> was no immediate danger of radiation leaks or an explosion, said Igor
> Dygalo, head of the navy press service. The navy declined to say what went
> wrong and forced the submarine to the ocean floor Sunday in the Barents
> Sea, describing it only as a "malfunction." . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 14:04:32 2000
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Cool!
MJ

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >>Here is a Washington Post story that reads like a Tom Clancy
> >>techno-thriller. The Russians do not have advanced rescue equipment. In a
> >>techno-thriller, the U.S. would lend them a rescue sub. I wonder if that
> >>would be possible in real life.
> >
> >The article explains that a US rescue sub was not requested, and that if it
> >had been, the hatches are incompatible with Russian subs.  As for the Rad
> >leaks, and the possibility of the sub being armed with nukes, one only has
> >to remember Chernobyl to get an idea of what the Russian official statements
> >would be as opposed to the reality of the situation.  CNN reported very
> >early this morning  that the sub involved in a much larger operation.
> >
> >Here is something to think about though.  Ever wonder why no country has
> >done any undersea testing of a nuclear weapon?  I have.
>
> ***{An undersea nuke of moderate size would produce a tsunami more than a
> mile high, and would wipe out the coastal population of the planet--several
> billion people, more than likely. Hell, the sieche waves themselves would
> likely reverberate for months. We damn well better hope no one ever does
> such a test. It would wipe out civilization and return mankind to the stone
> age. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >Knuke
> >Michael T. Huffman
> >Huffman Technology Company
> >1121 Dustin Drive
> >The Villages, Florida 32159
> >(352)259-1276
> >knuke LCIA.COM
> >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 14:04:35 2000
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[snip]

>
> Suppose, therefore, that we raise a cubic mile of ocean water to a height
> of 1 mile above sea level. The energy required will be
> [(2.54)(12)(5280)]^3 = 4.17x10^15 calories.

***{Wrong! I must have been out of my mind when I wrote that! Wow!  Please
ignore ridiculous calculation. I will do it again, correctly I hope, later.
For now, it is time for me to go grab a hamburger. Later. --MJ}***

[snip]

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Well, despite my best intentions, I couldn't force myself out the door
until I had re-done the calculation. Here it is:

In the cgs system, g = 980 cm/sec^2, and so, on Earth, a 1 gram mass weighs
980 dynes. Thus a cubic mile of water weighs {[(2.54)(12)(5280)]^3}(980) =
4.08x10^18 dynes. Result: the work done in raising it to a position 1 mile
above sea level is (4.08x10^18)(2.54)(12)(3/2)(5280) = 9.86x10^23 ergs,
which is 9.86x10^16 joules, or 4.13x10^17 cal. At 10^15 cal/Mt, that means
we would need a 413 Mt bomb, assuming that all the energy went into lifting
the water. However, since a significant portion of the energy needed would
go into forms that would not contribute to lift (e.g., heat), we would need
a *much larger* bomb than this. Bottom line: my original gut-level reaction
to the idea of an underwater nuke was simply wrong.

Anyway, this time I *really am* going to go get a hamburger.

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 15:04:07 2000
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	Dear Josip, Markus and Franz,


	Quite some time ago I wrote to you about your work.  I was hoping
to find some feedback.. It is possible the message did not get to you.

	Please send me a reply if you get this,

		Thanks,

				John Schnurer
	

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:59:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Josip.Milanovic physik.stud.uni-erlangen.de
Cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>,
    Franz.J.Schmitt physik.stud.uni-erlangen.de,
    markus rommel.stw.uni-erlangen.de, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Experiment


	Dear Josip, Franz  and Markus,

	At your page:

	http://www.rommel.stw.uni-erlangen.de/~markus/antigrav/1.html

	I looked at your experiment and commend you for working with
superconductors.  It is not the easiest thing to work with liquid
nitrogen.

	I abbreviate High Temperature Superconductor as HTC.  HTC of 1.2.3
YBCO can be obtained as a Sintered product, abbreviated SP, and a product
which has been
"Melt-Textured, abbreviated MT.
	The MT is a very good material for showing the Meissner Effect.
The SP is not as good at showing the Meissner Effect and is often much
less costly.  At first we thought the MT would be better for gravity
work... but we were wrong.

	The HTC YBCO has two crystal forms, 
	1]	the Ortho crystal structure...... sort of like a
rectangular cage with all angles being 90 degree right angles and
exhibiting super
conduction at  liquid nitrogen temperatures 

			and 

	2]	the Tetra crystal structure, much the same but leaning to
one side with not all angles being 90 degree right angles ... the Tetra
does NOT exhibit superconduction at liquid nitrogen temperatures.

	Dr. Podkletnov teaches there must be NCE, or Normal Conduction
Electrons and SCE, or Superconduction Electrons in the same material at
the same time for his discovery to work.  He als teaches the method he
uses to heat one face ofthe disk he uses to cause the phase change making
a thin layer of the YBCO disk into the Tetra phase.  This satifies his
requirement for NCE and SCE in the same piece of material.
  
	The Sintered Material has both phases, not as nice as Dr.
Podkletnov's methods but which does have NCE and SCE in the same material.
	

	I have some questions and comments.

	C:

	When we put the coils set alone in the liquid nitrogen, but no
YBCO disk we do not get a lightening, bouyancy or levitation... nor does
it sink. This is because the coils set is all open and there is not reason
for it to go up or down. There are bubbles, but because all is open they
just go to the surface.
	
	Q:	Did you do this experiment?

	If your coils alone, or coils with a "dummy" non HTC show bouyancy
or going down then you should change them to a more open configuration so
this is not an artifact effect. 

	Q:  Have you tried to do this?

	C:

	When we do put the coils set in liquid nitrogen and use a piece of
YBCO which is no longer a superconductor because it has been changed to
the Tetra crystal from by heating to 1,200 C... there by destroying the
superconductor property at liquid nitrogen temperatures we get no effect
of up or down or bouyancy. 

	Q:	Did you do this experiment?

	NOTE:  See description of crystal phases of 1,2,3 YBCO elsewhere
			in this discussion, please.

	C:

	We found that YBCO worked well but that BISSCO or bismuth type
substituted, which has a higher Critical Temperature did not work at all.

	NOTE: Critical Temperature is the temperature at which the SCE
exhibits the effects of zero resistance and Meissner Effects. 

	Q:  What type of HTC did you use?
	Q:  How big was it?
	Q:  What shape was it?

	C:

	We found the best material came from Mr. J. R. Gaines at
Superconductive Components in Columbus Ohio, with their 1 inch sintered
disk being quite satisfactory.

			 OTC (SCCI)
                         1145 Chesapeake Ave.
                         Columbus, Ohio 43212
                         (614) 486-0261
                         www.superconductivecomp.com
			 1-800-346-6567

	The company also has a VERY fine Melt Textured part called LEVHEX
and it is an hexagonal near perfect single crystal that shows a very very
strong Meissner Effect.

	I feel it is important for people doing this work to be able to
physically feel the Meissner Effect of a suspended magnet... sort of like
a cross between the magnet being on springs and also being in a viscous
material like maybe Jello [tm] or thick oil... except every thing is in
air!

	C:	

	We used "targets" of glass, non magnetic metal, wood and
plastic..... with all of these we tried  many types.

	Q: 	Did you do these experiments?

	C:

	The pivot in the wood balance beam we used was a smooth steel pin
and the wires were Litz wire to reduce artifact as much as we could.
	I was not able to see the details of the wire or pivot in your
experimental set up.

	Q:	How were your pivot and wires set up?

	C:	

	Our drive current was about 1 amp at 9 volts and there was a set
of 3 coils in the assembly so as to create a rotating magnetic field.  We
used a simple method to determine the "size" of our magnets and field.

	1]	First we took the YBCO and chilled it to 77K and then used
a series of small and than larger and larger permanent magnets until we
found a field strength which JUST barely would overcome the ability of the
YBCO to sustain a Meissner Effect.  This is sort of trial and error
method.  Too strong a field and then you just kill the SC effect.... too
small and the Gravity Modification, Abbreviated GM, is not as big as it
can be.

	2]	We then wound a series of electromagnets. We matched the
strength of the two by using a compass at a fixed distance and observed
like deflections of 45 degrees of the needle.  This is an old and useful
method.

	C:	The original work by Dr. Podkletnov used rotating disk.  I
used rotating fields.  In a recent talk by Dr. Podkletnov in England he
cited using BOTH rotating disk and my method of rotating the field as
well.  This only makes sense.  With both methods he reported 5% GM.

	Q:	How did you arrive at rotating fields?
	Q:	How many magnet-sets did you use?
	Q:	What was the strneth of the field and how did you arrive
			at the strength you used?
	Q:	What current and voltage was used?

	C:	

	We found good results with a field switching rate of about 3
revolutions per second.

	Q:	How fast did you rotate your fields?


	Thank you for your work,

	I look forward to your answers to these many questions and thank
		you in advance for your valuable time


	Best Regards,

				John Schnurer

	Post Script:

	In the time since the airing of the German Television Show by
Klaus Simmering several entities, individuals and groups have reported in
confidence to the Gravity Society.  Many have exhibited GM, or Gravity
Modification in one form or another ans not all have used Super
Conductors.
	I was amused by your web site wherein the text claims I describe
myself as a complete failure.  I must have overlooked the days I failed
completely!  In general I sometimes get things right.


					JHS



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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> Well, despite my best intentions, I couldn't force myself out the door
> until I had re-done the calculation. Here it is:
> 
> In the cgs system, g = 980 cm/sec^2, and so, on Earth, a 1 gram mass weighs
> 980 dynes. Thus a cubic mile of water weighs {[(2.54)(12)(5280)]^3}(980) =
> 4.08x10^18 dynes. Result: the work done in raising it to a position 1 mile
> above sea level is (4.08x10^18)(2.54)(12)(3/2)(5280) = 9.86x10^23 ergs,
> which is 9.86x10^16 joules, or 4.13x10^17 cal. At 10^15 cal/Mt, that means
> we would need a 413 Mt bomb, assuming that all the energy went into lifting
> the water. However, since a significant portion of the energy needed would
> go into forms that would not contribute to lift (e.g., heat), we would need
> a *much larger* bomb than this. Bottom line: my original gut-level reaction
> to the idea of an underwater nuke was simply wrong.
> 
> Anyway, this time I *really am* going to go get a hamburger.

Better think twice!  How much does that hamburger *really* cost?

http://olddept.physics.upenn.edu/~mohr/Documents/hamburger.html

Terry

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Subject: Re: test......nothing in it.......
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Ahoy!

I guess now we'll have to look up those patents of yours, and get back to an
intelligent mode of discussion again.  Darn!

Knuke

>test.........
>NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 18:49:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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Mitch wrote:

 At 10^15 cal/Mt, that means
>we would need a 413 Mt bomb, assuming that all the energy went into lifting
>the water. However, since a significant portion of the energy needed would
>go into forms that would not contribute to lift (e.g., heat), we would need
>a *much larger* bomb than this. Bottom line: my original gut-level reaction
>to the idea of an underwater nuke was simply wrong.
>
>Anyway, this time I *really am* going to go get a hamburger.
>
>--Mitchell Jones

Hi Mitch,

Trust you are renourished by now!  Your calculations are interesting, but I
think that your initial, gut reaction impression that the world could
actually be totally destroyed by one underwater thermonuclear blast is most
probably correct.  The way you have approached the problem appears to me to
deny some basic facts of fluid dynamics, as well as many of the additional
"features" of a nuclear blast.

First of all, it has been discussed here that the Russians have tested a
bomb many years ago that was rated at 500 Mt at that time, underground, so
bombs of that size are a reality.  In all likelyhood, the yield and
efficiency of bombs have greatly improved since that time.

Secondly, if you look at how a bomb explodeds, it pushes away from a solid
material, and the majority of the energy follows the path of least
resistance.  In the case that I have imagined, a bomb sitting directly on
the bottom of the sea at a depth of 400 ft or so, as in the case of this
sunken submarine, would release its energy, for the large part, upwards
towards the surface of the ocean.  The rest of the energy would be expended
in pushing water outwards from point zero, and a small amount would be
expended creating a crater in the ocean floor.  If you don't think that a
significant amount of water would be raised at least a mile high under those
conditions, I would be greatly surprised.  I get the impressions from your
calculations that the water that you are referring to is in some kind of box
that is simply mechanically lifted a mile high, instead of in an open ocean.

There are secondary considerations as well, that would come into play, such
as the extreme temperature of the blast boiling off and even dissociating
much of the water, thereby resulting in a global rainfall of radioactive
fallout.  Also not considered was the additional fuel provided by the
methane clathrate which covers the entire ocean floor.  Undoubtedly, some of
this would be burned if the surface of the water were broken long enough to
expose this gas to oxygen.

The combination of the depth factor, the destructive effects of the
underwater contamination, the destructive effects of the radioactive
steam/rain, the rapid loss of massive amounts of atmospheric Oxygen due to
chemical burning, and the ensuing tsunami would, I think, do the planet,
possibly a final disservice from just one such an event.  Perhaps I am
wrong, and it would take two events, but you get the idea.  No country or
entity "needs" any more than two bombs to wipe out all of lifekind.  A
continued analysis on your part would, I think, reach the same conclusion.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 14 19:30:15 2000
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Subject: Operation WIGWAM = Underwater U.S. Nuke testing, info enclosed
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Learn about nuclear weapons tests here:
 http://www.alphacdc.com/ien/wigwam.html
May 14, 1955 - U.S.A. conducted an underwater nuclear test approximately 500 mi.
southwest of San
             Diego. The activities surrounding the detonation were conducted
under the name of Operation
             WIGWAM.
Operation WIGWAM Resources
      http://www.mtn.org/~masouder/wigwam/

      Introduction

           On May 14, 1955, the United States conducted an underwater nuclear
test approximately 500 miles
           southwest of San Diego, California. The activities surrounding the
detonation were conducted
           under the name of "Operation WIGWAM".

           The test in WIGWAM was a 30-kiloton nuclear device suspended by a
cable 2000 feet deep. The
           purpose of the test was to learn what effects an undersea nuclear
explosion would have on
           underwater and surface vessels (and their personnel).

           My father was one of the 6,544 people who took part in the test. He
was on the directorate of the
           USS Harry E. Hubbard (DD-748) as a fireman.

           When my father died of fast growing multiple cancers in 1986, I
thought his involvement with the
           WIGWAM test might have had some effect on his getting cancer. When
his shipmate and best
           friend died the same way two years later, I was sure of it. Several
years later I began to investigate
           the test and what compensation my dad's widow (my mother) might
receive. I also became
           interested in learning what, if any, effects the test might have on
my health since I was conceived
           less than a year after the test.

           This web resource is a an attempt to share what I've learned through
the research and claim filing
           process.

      Testimony

           Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments (ACHRE)
           http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/radiation/ "The Advisory Committee
on Human Radiation
           Experiments (ACHRE), was created by President Clinton on January 15,
1994 to investigate and
           report on the use of human beings as subjects of federally funded
research using ionizing radiation.
           ACHRE constructed a gopher site to provide public electronic access
to information about its
           activities" Quote from (ACHRE) Web Site

                (ACHRE) Tenth Meeting, January 19-20, 1995 - Washington D.C.
                Transcript of January 20, 1995
                http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/radiation/dir/mstreet/commeet/
meet10/trnsc10b.txt
                Discusses in part Operation WIGWAM and its effects on a sailor
named Tom McCarthy of
                the U.S Mount McKinley the first witness at this hearing is Joan
McCarthy, Tom's widow.

      Getting Help

      Organizations:

           National Association Atomic Veterans
           PO Box 2558
           Ventnor City, NJ 08406-0558

           National Association of Radiation Survivors
           Administrative Director
           PO Box 278
           Live Oak,CA 95953
           (800) 798-5102 (Voice)
                          The National Association of Radiation Survivors has
been very helpful to me
                          personally by giving information on the Veterans
Affairs claim process.

           U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs http://www.va.gov

           Title 38--Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief
http://www.va.gov/regs/TITLE38.HTM

           Title 38 Benefits http://www.va.gov/regs/title38/benefits.htm

           Section of Title 38 Pertaining to Nuclear Tests (WIGWAM is named in
document) and qualifying
           cancers http://www.va.gov/regs/title38/38v1019.htm

      How We Filed a Claim

           In December of 1996 my mother filed a death benefits claim with the
VA for my father's cancer
           death in 1986. This link is a chronology of my mother's
correspondance with the VA. The claim is
           being processed as of August 1997.

           Operation WIGWAM Documents Available from the US Government

           Search results on the term "wigwam" using the Department of Energy's
OpenNet Database at
           http://www.doe.gov/waisgate/opennet.new.html

      Other Operation WIGWAM Documents

           Operation Wigwam: the story of California's secret nuclear war can
now be told. (1980). Available
           from the Center for Investigative Reporting, 500 Howard St., Suite
206, San Franciso, CA
           94105-3000. Ask for reference number ABC34140181.

           Operation Wigwam: special report to honorable Mayor and City Council
from the Quality of Life
           Board, City of San Diego (1980). San Diego: the Board.

      Select Nuclear Weapon and Radiation/Health Resources

           The U.S. Nuclear Weapons Cost Study Project (Brookings Institute)
           http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/WEAPONS.HTM

           Baylor College of Medicine's Radiation Health Effects Research
Resource Page
           http://radefx.bcm.tmc.edu/

           OPENNET Database for the Office of Declassification, US Department of
Energy
           http://www.doe.gov/html/osti/opennet/openscr.html

           CATALOG OF KNOWN AND PUTATIVE NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS FROM UNCLASSIFIED
           SOURCES Compiled by James E. Lawson Jr.

gopher://wealaka.okgeosurvey1.gov:70/00/nuke.cat/nuke.cat.under.construction

           National Institute of Medicine News July 15, 1995: Health Study of
Atomic Veterans' Families Not
           Feasible, Study Says http://www2.nas.edu/whatsnew/238a.html

      Collected Contacts

           Edwin Harvey of the U.S.S. Wright edharss juno.com

                From: Edwin Harvey's posting to Sgt Mom's Vet/Retirees Bulletin
BOARD
                http://www.sgtmoms.com/kilroy.htm#USSWRIGHT

                "Searching for members of the USS Wright who were aboard for
"Operation Wigwam" (May
                1955). If you were a member or know a surviving spouse, please
contact me for current
                legislation being considered by the House Security Committee. E.
D. Harvey, USS Wright
                Association, PO Box 9, Calvary, Ga., 31729 "


      This resource is maintained by Mick Souder, masouder mtn.org. Please
contact me if you any comments
      about this resource or have an additional information about Operation
WIGWAM. I am especially
      interested in

           Contacts--Names, addresses, and e-mail of people involved with
Operation WIGWAM (I will only
           post those addresses of people who give permission)
           Photos--Of the test or other related material.
           Research materials, links to other interested parties and their
resources and Atomic Veteran
           resources I have missed--I am sure I just scratched the surface.
           Writings--peoples' letters, journals, short stories and poetry
concerning Operation WIGWAM. (I'll
           show you my poem if you show me yours.)
           Your comments on how I can make this resource better.

                     Thank You.

      Last updated on 8/4/97
 http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/WEAPONS.HTM
 http://207.25.71.25/US/9712/22/nuclear.films/


Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Mitch wrote:
>
>  At 10^15 cal/Mt, that means
> >we would need a 413 Mt bomb, assuming that all the energy went into lifting
> >the water. However, since a significant portion of the energy needed would
> >go into forms that would not contribute to lift (e.g., heat), we would need
> >a *much larger* bomb than this. Bottom line: my original gut-level reaction
> >to the idea of an underwater nuke was simply wrong.
> >
> >Anyway, this time I *really am* going to go get a hamburger.
> >
> >--Mitchell Jones
>
> Hi Mitch,
>
> Trust you are renourished by now!  Your calculations are interesting, but I
> think that your initial, gut reaction impression that the world could
> actually be totally destroyed by one underwater thermonuclear blast is most
> probably correct.  The way you have approached the problem appears to me to
> deny some basic facts of fluid dynamics, as well as many of the additional
> "features" of a nuclear blast.
>
> First of all, it has been discussed here that the Russians have tested a
> bomb many years ago that was rated at 500 Mt at that time, underground, so
> bombs of that size are a reality.  In all likelyhood, the yield and
> efficiency of bombs have greatly improved since that time.
>
> Secondly, if you look at how a bomb explodeds, it pushes away from a solid
> material, and the majority of the energy follows the path of least
> resistance.  In the case that I have imagined, a bomb sitting directly on
> the bottom of the sea at a depth of 400 ft or so, as in the case of this
> sunken submarine, would release its energy, for the large part, upwards
> towards the surface of the ocean.  The rest of the energy would be expended
> in pushing water outwards from point zero, and a small amount would be
> expended creating a crater in the ocean floor.  If you don't think that a
> significant amount of water would be raised at least a mile high under those
> conditions, I would be greatly surprised.  I get the impressions from your
> calculations that the water that you are referring to is in some kind of box
> that is simply mechanically lifted a mile high, instead of in an open ocean.
>
> There are secondary considerations as well, that would come into play, such
> as the extreme temperature of the blast boiling off and even dissociating
> much of the water, thereby resulting in a global rainfall of radioactive
> fallout.  Also not considered was the additional fuel provided by the
> methane clathrate which covers the entire ocean floor.  Undoubtedly, some of
> this would be burned if the surface of the water were broken long enough to
> expose this gas to oxygen.
>
> The combination of the depth factor, the destructive effects of the
> underwater contamination, the destructive effects of the radioactive
> steam/rain, the rapid loss of massive amounts of atmospheric Oxygen due to
> chemical burning, and the ensuing tsunami would, I think, do the planet,
> possibly a final disservice from just one such an event.  Perhaps I am
> wrong, and it would take two events, but you get the idea.  No country or
> entity "needs" any more than two bombs to wipe out all of lifekind.  A
> continued analysis on your part would, I think, reach the same conclusion.
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 02:09:20 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: A Bit More Info on Russian Sub
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Gnorts,

Here is another article on the sunken submarine.

http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-14-02.html

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 05:45:33 2000
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Hi Mitch,
> 
> Trust you are renourished by now!  Your calculations are interesting, but I
> think that your initial, gut reaction impression that the world could
> actually be totally destroyed by one underwater thermonuclear blast is most
> probably correct.  

<snip>

Superpower naval arsenals include tactical, nuclear torpedoes. 
Don't you think they might have been tested under water?

http://www.alternatives.com/library/env/envgmil/nep5text.txt

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 08:13:11 2000
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:07:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: A Bit More Info on Russian Sub
Resent-Message-ID: <"-8Awq3.0.2A6.-rLcv" mx1>
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>Gnorts,
>
>Here is another article on the sunken submarine.
>
>http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-14-02.html

***{The most absurd claim in the article was this:

"The Norwegian authorities have no reason to doubt the Russian information
that has been presented in the media that that submarine does not have
atomic weapons aboard," the Norwegian Defense Ministry said in a statement.

This is just another example, among legions, illustrating the fact that
government officials pursue their own interests, rather than the interests
of the public. These Norwegian officials are obviously more interested in
optimizing their interpersonal relationships with their peers in the
Russian Defense Ministry, with whom they are in contact on virtually a
daily basis, than in fulfilling their duty to keep the public informed
about potential dangers. (This is a ballistic missile submarine, and the
claim that it doesn't have ballistic miisiles aboard is implausible in the
extreme.)

Fortunately, based on my calculation of yesterday, even if all of the
nuclear warheads were to detonate simultaneously (improbable) it is
unlikely that there would be a serious global impact. Locally, of course,
there would be a disaster: (1) the crew would obviously die, assuming they
aren't dead already; (2) the resulting tsunami would devastate coastal
towns and shipping in the vicinity, killing tens or hundreds of thousands;
and (3) if the surface of the ocean were breached by the explosion, a cloud
of radiation would disperse into the atmosphere, generating adverse health
effects until its concentration had been diluted to the hormesis level
(after which it would actually become beneficial); (4) seafood from the
area would be rendered inedible for decades.

Most importantly, the public should be informed of the realities of the
situation, so that they can prepare themselves to deal with a possible
tsunami scenario--which means: prepare a back-pack with emergency survival
gear, plan a safe route to high ground, and pay attention to the radio.
While such an alert status wouldn't save all, or even most,  of the
potential victims, it would save many, and the public ought to be informed.

However, government officials are motivated in the same way as private
citizens: they examine the incentives that are available, and choose the
course of action that yields up the most benefits to them personally--which
means: they pursue their own private interests rather than the public
interest. Because it is human nature to do this, and because human nature
cannot be altered, government officials need to be constrained by the
necessity to respect the rights of their fellow men--which means: they
ought not be exempt from lawsuits and criminal penalities, if they fail to
properly discharge their duties, and the system should be deliberately
structured in ways that encourage and facilitate the needed oversight.

The types of structures that are required, however, are subject to massive
disagreement, and *all* of the modern approaches to the problem--i.e., the
multitudinous varieties of fascism and socialism--have been unarguable,
miserable failures. The problem is that government officials do not *want*
to be subject to lawsuits and criminal penalties if they pursue their
personal interests rather than the public interest, and they oppose
attempts to bring such incentives into play with every power and artifice
at their disposal. Result: they remain unconstrained by the necessity to
serve the public, and they continue to serve themselves instead--to the
detriment, ultimately, of all, including even themselves.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 08:41:06 2000
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I thought this list was about discussion of ZPE devices under construction.


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: A Bit More Info on Russian Sub
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:07:36 -0500
>
> >Gnorts,
> >
> >Here is another article on the sunken submarine.
> >
> >http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2000/2000L-08-14-02.html
>
>***{The most absurd claim in the article was this:
>
>"The Norwegian authorities have no reason to doubt the Russian information
>that has been presented in the media that that submarine does not have
>atomic weapons aboard," the Norwegian Defense Ministry said in a statement.
>
>This is just another example, among legions, illustrating the fact that
>government officials pursue their own interests, rather than the interests
>of the public. These Norwegian officials are obviously more interested in
>optimizing their interpersonal relationships with their peers in the
>Russian Defense Ministry, with whom they are in contact on virtually a
>daily basis, than in fulfilling their duty to keep the public informed
>about potential dangers. (This is a ballistic missile submarine, and the
>claim that it doesn't have ballistic miisiles aboard is implausible in the
>extreme.)
>
>Fortunately, based on my calculation of yesterday, even if all of the
>nuclear warheads were to detonate simultaneously (improbable) it is
>unlikely that there would be a serious global impact. Locally, of course,
>there would be a disaster: (1) the crew would obviously die, assuming they
>aren't dead already; (2) the resulting tsunami would devastate coastal
>towns and shipping in the vicinity, killing tens or hundreds of thousands;
>and (3) if the surface of the ocean were breached by the explosion, a cloud
>of radiation would disperse into the atmosphere, generating adverse health
>effects until its concentration had been diluted to the hormesis level
>(after which it would actually become beneficial); (4) seafood from the
>area would be rendered inedible for decades.
>
>Most importantly, the public should be informed of the realities of the
>situation, so that they can prepare themselves to deal with a possible
>tsunami scenario--which means: prepare a back-pack with emergency survival
>gear, plan a safe route to high ground, and pay attention to the radio.
>While such an alert status wouldn't save all, or even most,  of the
>potential victims, it would save many, and the public ought to be informed.
>
>However, government officials are motivated in the same way as private
>citizens: they examine the incentives that are available, and choose the
>course of action that yields up the most benefits to them personally--which
>means: they pursue their own private interests rather than the public
>interest. Because it is human nature to do this, and because human nature
>cannot be altered, government officials need to be constrained by the
>necessity to respect the rights of their fellow men--which means: they
>ought not be exempt from lawsuits and criminal penalities, if they fail to
>properly discharge their duties, and the system should be deliberately
>structured in ways that encourage and facilitate the needed oversight.
>
>The types of structures that are required, however, are subject to massive
>disagreement, and *all* of the modern approaches to the problem--i.e., the
>multitudinous varieties of fascism and socialism--have been unarguable,
>miserable failures. The problem is that government officials do not *want*
>to be subject to lawsuits and criminal penalties if they pursue their
>personal interests rather than the public interest, and they oppose
>attempts to bring such incentives into play with every power and artifice
>at their disposal. Result: they remain unconstrained by the necessity to
>serve the public, and they continue to serve themselves instead--to the
>detriment, ultimately, of all, including even themselves.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >Knuke
> >Michael T. Huffman
> >Huffman Technology Company
> >1121 Dustin Drive
> >The Villages, Florida 32159
> >(352)259-1276
> >knuke LCIA.COM
> >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 08:55:58 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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>Mitch wrote:
>
> At 10^15 cal/Mt, that means
>>we would need a 413 Mt bomb, assuming that all the energy went into lifting
>>the water. However, since a significant portion of the energy needed would
>>go into forms that would not contribute to lift (e.g., heat), we would need
>>a *much larger* bomb than this. Bottom line: my original gut-level reaction
>>to the idea of an underwater nuke was simply wrong.
>>
>>Anyway, this time I *really am* going to go get a hamburger.
>>
>>--Mitchell Jones
>
>Hi Mitch,
>
>Trust you are renourished by now!  Your calculations are interesting, but I
>think that your initial, gut reaction impression that the world could
>actually be totally destroyed by one underwater thermonuclear blast is most
>probably correct.

***{I ran the numbers because when I read up on the subject, I quickly
began to encounter examples that did not jibe with the disaster scenario
that I had in mind. And, when I did the calculation correctly (the etiology
of the incorrect calculation is a story in itself :-), I discovered that
the required bomb would be mind-bogglingly enormous--orders of magnitude
larger than anything that is likely to exist in any nations nuclear
arsenals. Hence I withdrew the claim. --MJ}***

The way you have approached the problem appears to me to
>deny some basic facts of fluid dynamics, as well as many of the additional
>"features" of a nuclear blast.
>
>First of all, it has been discussed here that the Russians have tested a
>bomb many years ago that was rated at 500 Mt at that time, underground, so
>bombs of that size are a reality.  In all likelyhood, the yield and
>efficiency of bombs have greatly improved since that time.

***{The capability to build monster bombs is certainly there, but to build
one and place it in the ocean with the intent of bringing down human
civilization would be the plan of a madman, and would require knowledge on
the part of many others in order to carry it out. Since all of those others
would *not* be madmen, the plan would leak, and would be stopped, even in
this crazy world. Thus I don't think we need to worry about it too much.
--MJ}***

>
>Secondly, if you look at how a bomb explodeds, it pushes away from a solid
>material, and the majority of the energy follows the path of least
>resistance.  In the case that I have imagined, a bomb sitting directly on
>the bottom of the sea at a depth of 400 ft or so, as in the case of this
>sunken submarine, would release its energy, for the large part, upwards
>towards the surface of the ocean.

***{Yes, with this sort of placement, a 413 Mt bomb might get the job done.
Or, with placement in a submarine canyon, even more of the force of the
blast might be directed upward, thereby reducing the required megatonnage
even more. However, a monster bomb would *still* be required, and a vast
supporting cast to build it, place it, and touch it off. Somebody among
that group would *not* be insane, and they would blow the whistle, causing
the plan to be aborted. --MJ}***

The rest of the energy would be expended
>in pushing water outwards from point zero, and a small amount would be
>expended creating a crater in the ocean floor.  If you don't think that a
>significant amount of water would be raised at least a mile high under those
>conditions, I would be greatly surprised.  I get the impressions from your
>calculations that the water that you are referring to is in some kind of box
>that is simply mechanically lifted a mile high, instead of in an open ocean.

***{Yes, I was just trying to get a rough feel for the magnitude of the
task, so that I could better judge its plausibility. As a result, it has
been pushed *way down* on my list of things to worry about. --MJ}***

>
>There are secondary considerations as well, that would come into play, such
>as the extreme temperature of the blast boiling off and even dissociating
>much of the water, thereby resulting in a global rainfall of radioactive
>fallout.

***{Once the heavy particles settle out and the light ones are diffused
evenly throughout the atmosphere, the effects would be hormetic--i.e.,
beneficial to health. It is only in the short run, while they remain
concentrated in a relatively small area, that they would be a threat.
--MJ}***

Also not considered was the additional fuel provided by the
>methane clathrate which covers the entire ocean floor.  Undoubtedly, some of
>this would be burned if the surface of the water were broken long enough to
>expose this gas to oxygen.

***{All that would do would be infuse a big pulse of CO2 into the
atmosphere, contributing to further expansion of the biosphere and the
further greening of the Earth. In my view, that would be a good thing.
Given my druthers, I would like to see atmospheric CO2 concentrations
pushed back over 1000 ppm, to where they were in the age of the dinosaurs,
so that greenbelt would spread almost to the poles, as it did then, and the
Earth would be able to support a much larger population than now. --MJ}***

>
>The combination of the depth factor, the destructive effects of the
>underwater contamination, the destructive effects of the radioactive
>steam/rain, the rapid loss of massive amounts of atmospheric Oxygen due to
>chemical burning

***{I don't think it would be significant in terms of the amount of O2 in
the atmosphere. Indeed, I doubt that the percentage of O2 would drop by
even a tenth of a percent. To prove otherwise, you would need to run the
numbers. How much methane could be present within, say, 100 miles of ground
zero? Do you have any numbers? Assume the worst, and that all of it is
burned. What would be the percentage effect on the global O2 concentration?
I'll lay long odds that the effect would be trivial in the short run, and
beneficial in the long run. --MJ}***

, and the ensuing tsunami would, I think, do the planet,
>possibly a final disservice from just one such an event.  Perhaps I am
>wrong, and it would take two events, but you get the idea.  No country or
>entity "needs" any more than two bombs to wipe out all of lifekind.  A
>continued analysis on your part would, I think, reach the same conclusion.

***{I am continuing to think about it, but at present it looks like a minor
threat. --MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 09:11:27 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: A Bit More Info on Russian Sub
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>I thought this list was about discussion of ZPE devices under construction.

***{That is an inaccurate description, but this particular thread does
stretch the edge of the envelope a bit. In any case, Jed Rothwell started
the discussion of this topic, and this is where he put it. If you object to
its placement, I am perfectly agreeable to moving it to vortexb-l. Is that
OK with you, Knuke? --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 11:12:25 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> I thought this list was about discussion of ZPE devices under construction.

---

have you read the FAQ?

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 14:44:42 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Knuke
	A few years ago there was a semi serius proposal to dam up the
Long Island Sound at both ends, and explode several H-bombs in it to heat
the water near boiling, then use the hot water to generate low cost
electricity.

Hank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 14:52:56 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:50:14 EDT
Subject: no radiation and the motion constants
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JA Carr

In your analysis you assume that the range and strength of the strong nuclear 
field is constant.  You assume that the constants of the motion are 
conserved.  This is not true.  It can be easily seen in an electromagnetic 
systems.  The strength of the composite field depends on the Hamoltonian or 
configuration of the system.

A Bose condensate strongly affects the constants of the motion associated 
with the strong nuclear and gravitational forces.  Stimulating the condensate 
at a frequency of one megahertz meter seems to increase the effect.

In such a system the range of the strong nuclear force can exceed that of the 
columbic.  It is also weaker.  The increased range allows nuclear reactions 
proceed without emitting any radiation.  At COFE I explained that it was like 
stepping over a speed bump rather then going over it.  Miley's compound 
nucleus also requires a weak long range nuclear force.  Stripes of nuclear 
material have be detected with low velocity neutron scattering experiment 
within superconductors.  This story in last months Scientific American.  The 
results of gravitational experiments also seem to confirm this.

......................
My ANS preprint below.  I hope to present this fall.  I presented an expanded 
version of this at UIUC last fall.

 
 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/ans.txt">http://members.aol.com/fz
nidarsic/ans.txt</A>

I believe that we have just begun to understand how to control the 
gravitational and strong nuclear forces.  The yield for society will equal or 
exceed the benefit of electromagnetic technologies.  This should have been 
done a long time ago.

Frank Znidarsic 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 17:04:42 2000
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:08:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: I lost Remi again!
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	Does anyone have Remi's address on E mail.... all I get is bounce.


			Thanks,

			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 18:48:32 2000
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Subject: Re: A Bit More Info on Russian Sub
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Mitch writes:
>***{That is an inaccurate description, but this particular thread does
>stretch the edge of the envelope a bit. In any case, Jed Rothwell started
>the discussion of this topic, and this is where he put it. If you object to
>its placement, I am perfectly agreeable to moving it to vortexb-l. Is that
>OK with you, Knuke? --MJ}***

Ahoy there,

Sure, that's fine with me.  I'll make my next post on this subject over
there.  I found myself a bit behind in some of my other work however, and
have to get back to this tomorrow.  I do have some refs on an estimate on
the amount of Methane Clathrate per square mile that is just below the ocean
floor around here somewhere, and I'll try to dig them out as well.  I was
surprised at how much there was actually, but there is quite a lot.  The
mining of this gas is one of the oil industry's most studied and viable
options as a fuel for the future.

I wouldn't pursue this particular thread normally except for the fact that I
think that it is something that is still possible for someone to do either
by accident or design, and that even a cursory analysis of the numbers would
be interesting to me.  If properly done, it may provide a compelling enough
of a polemic for the reduction of the nuclear arms development, and may also
prevent an accident of this nature from occurring.  I think that it is a
valid and important topic, and the accidental sinking of a submarine is a
good wake up call for all of us.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 19:19:07 2000
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By the way, Knuke, I keep forgetting to mention that even if we were to
somehow raise a mile-high hump in the water with a humongous thermonuclear
explosion, the resulting tsunami would only be a mile high when it began
its journey. Thereafter, its amplitude would be attenuated in accordance
with the inverse square law, and, when it reached the opposte side of the
ocean, it would be scarcely a ripple. Bottom line: it would take a line of
humongous underwater nukes down the middle of an ocean, to have the desired
effect (desired by a madman)--which means: it would be a gigantic project,
with far too many people involved to have any chance of success. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 15 23:48:21 2000
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>Knuke
>	A few years ago there was a semi serius proposal to dam up the
>Long Island Sound at both ends, and explode several H-bombs in it to heat
>the water near boiling, then use the hot water to generate low cost
>electricity.
>
>Hank

Egads!  I have read that the Russians have actually used smaller nukes like
they use to use dynamite to build tunnels through mountains for railways and
roads.  Of course, the local population in those areas are now paying the
health price for such idiocy.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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>By the way, Knuke, I keep forgetting to mention that even if we were to
>somehow raise a mile-high hump in the water with a humongous thermonuclear
>explosion, the resulting tsunami would only be a mile high when it began
>its journey. Thereafter, its amplitude would be attenuated in accordance
>with the inverse square law, and, when it reached the opposte side of the
>ocean, it would be scarcely a ripple. Bottom line: it would take a line of
>humongous underwater nukes down the middle of an ocean, to have the desired
>effect (desired by a madman)--which means: it would be a gigantic project,
>with far too many people involved to have any chance of success. --MJ

I may have jumped to a false conclusion here, and want to study it some more
before I do any more writing.  I do want to thank Terry Blanton for the
excellent URL on the subject, and want to read through that first, so I'll
put the topic on the back burner for now.  If nothing else, I did have a
great outline for another Tom Clancy novel ready, but if the actual numbers
don't work out then it would just be an Indiana Jones type fantasy.

Later,
Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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August 16, 2000

Vortex,

You may want to visit the website.
The 'FWD:' has some ads deleted.

-AK-

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: TWA 800 Eyewitness Alliance
Date: 16 Aug 2000 03:16:01 -0000
From: "TWA Flight 800" <bobdonaldson yahoo.com>
To: List Member <aki ix.netcom.com>

TWA Flight 800 - <<http://twa800.com>>

Dear Member,

Today the TWA 800 Eyewitness Alliance published
a full page ad in the Washington Times claiming
that the NTSB, FBI and CIA have systematically
ignored their evidence and covered up the real
cause of the tragedy.  A copy of the full page
ad is available at the web site.

Also, a limited number of high quality vinal 
twa800.com bumper stickers are available.  
A contribution of $3.00 for the production of 
additional bumper stickers would be appreciated. 
This is a simple and easy way to bring attention to 
this tragedy. Any funds not used to produce new 
bumper stickers will be donated to the Families 
of Flight 800 Memorial Fund.

Don't forget, the NTSB will hold its final hearing
on the crash in Washington, DC on August 22 and 23.

Regards,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 07:37:06 2000
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Subject: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:31:26 -0400
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All you SETI fans, check this out.  A new article by Eric Baard.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mech_intelligence_000815.html


Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 10:24:59 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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What about the effect of all that thermal energy on ocean current/wind 
pattern/etc.

BTW  Tsunami are not 1 mile high where they start...

Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 10:42:01 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "VORTEX" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>All you SETI fans, check this out.  A new article by Eric Baard.
>
>http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mech_intelligence_000815.html

According to this article, Randell Mills is now devoting his time and
effort to artificial intelligence: "Randell Mills, a Harvard-trained
medical doctor . . . [is] teaming up with a Johns Hopkins neurology
professor and software company on an AI concept." I wish he would stick to
CF long enough to make it work, instead of going off on an unrelated
tangent. I doubt that he can make a significant contribution to A.I. In my
opinion, progress in that field will require expertise in two areas:
parallel processor computers, and linguistics. As far as I know, Mills has
no advanced knowledge in either of these fields, so I doubt he can
contribute much. He seems to believe he has a kind of all-encompassing,
all-purpose genius which works for everything and has unlimited capacity.
That's absurd. It is like suggesting that Einstein and Fermi could have
built an atomic bomb by themselves, or Von Neumann could have solved all
the engineering problems to build the early stored program computers by
himself. Von Neumann contributed more to computer hardware design than
anyone else, and his design concepts remain at the heart of every computer,
but his contribution was only a tiny fraction of what was needed.

In the past, Mills claimed he could cure cancer if only he tried. That, at
lease, would relate to his medical training. If he will not complete work
on at least one miracle before going on to the next, he is either a fake or
he might as well be one, for all the good he does. Self-styled "geniuses"
who never finish the job, ship the product and contribute to society are no
better than bums. The field of "o-u" energy is crawling with them,
unfortunately.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 11:51:13 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> According to this article, Randell Mills is now devoting his time and
> effort to artificial intelligence: "Randell Mills, a Harvard-trained
> medical doctor . . . [is] teaming up with a Johns Hopkins neurology
> professor and software company on an AI concept." I wish he 
> would stick to
> CF long enough to make it work, instead of going off on an unrelated
> tangent. I doubt that he can make a significant contribution 
> to A.I. In my
> opinion, progress in that field will require expertise in two areas:
> parallel processor computers, and linguistics. As far as I 
> know, Mills has
> no advanced knowledge in either of these fields, so I doubt he can
> contribute much.

Personally (I have worked in the AI field) I think that progress will
require advances towards making general-purpose analog computing practical,
because this is how the brain actually works.  Mills' ideas are based on a
fairly original mathematical model of the brain he has developed involving
Fourier analysis of waveforms.  It's not really ready-for-prime-time yet
though.

AI seems to be sort of a hobby for Mills--he still works full-time on his
hydrino business.

> He seems to believe he has a kind of 
> all-encompassing,
> all-purpose genius which works for everything and has 
> unlimited capacity.
> That's absurd. It is like suggesting that Einstein and Fermi 
> could have
> built an atomic bomb by themselves, or Von Neumann could have 
> solved all
> the engineering problems to build the early stored program 
> computers by
> himself. Von Neumann contributed more to computer hardware design than
> anyone else, and his design concepts remain at the heart of 
> every computer,
> but his contribution was only a tiny fraction of what was needed.

Sometimes individuals really do make contributions all by themselves, Jed.
Some people are competent in multiple fields too.  Edward Witten was a
McGovern aide until he decided to get into physics one day.  If Mills really
does have something to contribute, we shouldn't be dismissing him simply
because we are jealous or something.  Whether he is arrogant or not is
beside the point--smart people tend to be arrogant.

> In the past, Mills claimed he could cure cancer if only he 
> tried. That, at
> lease, would relate to his medical training. If he will not 
> complete work
> on at least one miracle before going on to the next, he is 
> either a fake or
> he might as well be one, for all the good he does. 
> Self-styled "geniuses"
> who never finish the job, ship the product and contribute to 
> society are no
> better than bums. The field of "o-u" energy is crawling with them,
> unfortunately.

I sympathize with that comment.  Mills is trying to do a lot of things at
once and hasn't really brought any of them to completion.

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 12:20:41 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Florek, Steven wrote:

>AI seems to be sort of a hobby for Mills--he still works full-time on his
>hydrino business.

I hope so, but this article seems to say he is involved in yet another
start up company. He may be a genius in physics and even computers, but so
far his talents for running companies and making business decisions look
dismal to me.


>Sometimes individuals really do make contributions all by themselves, Jed.

No doubt. Von Neumann made major contributions to chemistry, the atomic
bomb implosion technique, physics and game theory as well as the computer.
But he was not going around forming companies and collecting millions of
dollars from investors to make a product. He was a full time academic. He
left the practical implementation details to others. He was never in charge
of major development projects, with teams of people reporting to him.


>Some people are competent in multiple fields too.  Edward Witten was a
>McGovern aide until he decided to get into physics one day.

What happened to him after that?


  If Mills really
>does have something to contribute, we shouldn't be dismissing him simply
>because we are jealous or something.

I am not a bit jealous. I say he should finish one job before moving on to
another, or he loses credibility. It is as if Von Neumann quit design work
when his contributions were still vital, before the first stored program
computer was designed.

By the way, the people who built the early machines thought that Von
Neumann took too much credit.


> Whether he is arrogant or not is
>beside the point--smart people tend to be arrogant.

I don't give a darn whether he is arrogant or not, as long as he gets the
job done. Merely smart people may be arrogant, but the real geniuses I have
met, like Fleischmann, are too smart to be arrogant.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 12:30:38 2000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >Some people are competent in multiple fields too.  Edward 
> Witten was a
> >McGovern aide until he decided to get into physics one day.
> 
> What happened to him after that?

Uh, he's the creator of M-theory and is probably the world's foremost string
theory expert?

http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/nemmers/witten.html

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 12:57:28 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Florek, Steven wrote:

>> >Some people are competent in multiple fields too.  Edward 
>> Witten was a
>> >McGovern aide until he decided to get into physics one day.
>> 
>> What happened to him after that?
>
>Uh, he's the creator of M-theory and is probably the world's foremost string
>theory expert?

Well, if he had anything to do with McGovern's 1972 campaign fiasco, he is
better at physics than politics. It sounds like it was a smart career move.

- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Also, I should add that despite his genius, Von Neumann made many dumb
mistakes and bad calls. For example, he predicted that computers would soon
give people the ability to control weather. He based this on his own theory
that changes in weather are caused by tiny perturbations in local
conditions, along the lines of modern chaos theory. He consulted for IBM in
the 1950s, but fortunately they did not always listen to his advice, since
he told them among other things that FORTRAN was a waste of time. A short
bio relates a similar incident:

	Donald Gillies, one of von Neumann's students at Princeton, and later
	a faculty member at the University of Illinois, recalled in the
	mid-1970's that the graduates students were being "used" to hand
	assemble programs into binary for their early machine (probably the
	IAS machine). He took time out to build an assembler, but when
	von Neumann found out about he was very angry, saying (paraphrased),
	"It is a waste of a valuable scientific computing instrument to use
	it to do clerical work."

Even given the cost of equipment at that time, this was a stupid comment.
Assemblers were not only intended to reduced tedious work. They also
reduced programming and clerical errors and allowed larger, more complex
programs. Anyone dealing with computers should have understood that. It is
a good thing Von Neumann stayed at Princeton and was not put in charge of
IBM's R&D or some other major early computer project.

Even if Mills is the same kind of polymath genius (as he apparently thinks
he is), he should learn from Von Neumann's mistakes and not try to
overreach or spread himself too thin.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 14:39:14 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Float...Re: Russian submarine stuck on ocean floor
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	Float lifting bags might work to get the sub up.... and I think
undersea manned and un manned operated at 400 ot 500 feet fairly OK.
	The fastening of the floats to thesub seems to be the main hang
up...

On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> By the way, Knuke, I keep forgetting to mention that even if we were to
> somehow raise a mile-high hump in the water with a humongous thermonuclear
> explosion, the resulting tsunami would only be a mile high when it began
> its journey. Thereafter, its amplitude would be attenuated in accordance
> with the inverse square law, and, when it reached the opposte side of the
> ocean, it would be scarcely a ripple. Bottom line: it would take a line of
> humongous underwater nukes down the middle of an ocean, to have the desired
> effect (desired by a madman)--which means: it would be a gigantic project,
> with far too many people involved to have any chance of success. --MJ
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 15:25:06 2000
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Subject: Re: test......nothing in it.......
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At 07:58 PM 8/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Ahoy!
>
>I guess now we'll have to look up those patents of yours, and get back to an
>intelligent mode of discussion again.  Darn!

Sorry............wonderful US patent law is on the side of the inventor!!!!!!

No peeking until they are approved.  That said, when we file 
internationally, that will be a different story, and, we expect to publish 
a paper at APS this fall, so, info is coming in a few months.  Until 
then...............go read about Flynn for a low tech intro......   ;-)

US Boolean search page, author, Flynn......... and thermonuclear as key 
word will get it for you.

Here is a mystery for you:

I am convinced there is no such thing as *cold* fusion or *cold* anything 
nuclear for that matter.

I am also convinced that PF style and other types of "cold fusion" 
experiments produce nuclear reactions.

IMO, the error is all in the forensics, and the "magic" in this case has 
been faster than the eye................

Have fun.

rt

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: test......nothing in it.......
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:43:47 -0700
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> Here is a mystery for you:
> 
> I am convinced there is no such thing as *cold* fusion or 
> *cold* anything 
> nuclear for that matter.
> 
> I am also convinced that PF style and other types of "cold fusion" 
> experiments produce nuclear reactions.
> 
> IMO, the error is all in the forensics, and the "magic" in 
> this case has 
> been faster than the eye................

Sonoluminescent bubbles are creating the necessary temperatures for hot
fusion inside them?

Do I win a prize?

-Steve
PS So why do sonomluminescent reaction also happen in the absence of water
then?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 16:13:52 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: test......nothing in it.......
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:09:19 PDT
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I say it is the cosmological constant.  Gravity makes bubbles rise.  It's 
the fizz in the physics.  Heat is static, gravity is dynamic.  Einstein had 
it right to start off with.  Space is flat, fluid, and infinite, not curved, 
void, and finite.

Bubble UP!

David Dennard
The Cosmological Constant
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: test......nothing in it.......
>Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:43:47 -0700
>
>
>
> > Here is a mystery for you:
> >
> > I am convinced there is no such thing as *cold* fusion or
> > *cold* anything
> > nuclear for that matter.
> >
> > I am also convinced that PF style and other types of "cold fusion"
> > experiments produce nuclear reactions.
> >
> > IMO, the error is all in the forensics, and the "magic" in
> > this case has
> > been faster than the eye................
>
>Sonoluminescent bubbles are creating the necessary temperatures for hot
>fusion inside them?
>
>Do I win a prize?
>
>-Steve
>PS So why do sonomluminescent reaction also happen in the absence of water
>then?
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: letters newscientist.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:27:29 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the cold
downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method.
Part of the reason for the low pressure region in a tornado is that water
vapour is less dense than air, resulting in a real drop in pressure as air
is displaced by water vapour in the heart of the tornado (water molecules
weigh less than oxygen and nitrogen molecules, hence a vertical column of
water vapour weighs less than a vertical column of air. Consequently the
pressure at the bottom of such a column is less, as the pressure is caused
by the weight of the gas column).
This column of light weight molecules is easily displaced by the heavier
surrounding mass of cooler drier air, resulting in a powerful updraft.
The resulting winds in turn tend to enhance evaporation ("wind chilling" the
remaining liquid water), which produces more water vapour in the column,
feeding the process.
Now to the fix:- 
Suppose that a quantity of dry ice were placed on the ground in the path of
the tornado. As it sublimed, a layer of cold CO2 would form on the ground.
As the tornado crossed this layer, it would "draw" the CO2 into the funnel.
However CO2 is heavier than air, so this "diet" would destroy the lifting
mechanism, and the tornado would run out of "puf".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 16:42:57 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: letters newscientist.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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Robin
	How much dry ice would you need to kill a typical tornado?
Hank

On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
> explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the cold
> downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
> There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method.
> Part of the reason for the low pressure region in a tornado is that water
> vapour is less dense than air, resulting in a real drop in pressure as air
> is displaced by water vapour in the heart of the tornado (water molecules
> weigh less than oxygen and nitrogen molecules, hence a vertical column of
> water vapour weighs less than a vertical column of air. Consequently the
> pressure at the bottom of such a column is less, as the pressure is caused
> by the weight of the gas column).
> This column of light weight molecules is easily displaced by the heavier
> surrounding mass of cooler drier air, resulting in a powerful updraft.
> The resulting winds in turn tend to enhance evaporation ("wind chilling" the
> remaining liquid water), which produces more water vapour in the column,
> feeding the process.
> Now to the fix:- 
> Suppose that a quantity of dry ice were placed on the ground in the path of
> the tornado. As it sublimed, a layer of cold CO2 would form on the ground.
> As the tornado crossed this layer, it would "draw" the CO2 into the funnel.
> However CO2 is heavier than air, so this "diet" would destroy the lifting
> mechanism, and the tornado would run out of "puf".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 16:48:16 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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	Dear RvS.,

	US  have tried seeding with dry ice pellets and small chips of Dry
Ice... this works OK for seeding a cloud to rain.   So far it appears you
need either perfect situation or you need  A BIG BUNCH  of dry ice.  I
think this was mid to late 50s to and through mid sixties.   Worked in
some cases about to rain anyway.  There was some talk of the legal aspects
of making it rain somewhere.. and not rain somewhere else and the general
idea was then dropped from function.

				J 


On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
> explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the cold
> downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
> There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method.
> Part of the reason for the low pressure region in a tornado is that water
> vapour is less dense than air, resulting in a real drop in pressure as air
> is displaced by water vapour in the heart of the tornado (water molecules
> weigh less than oxygen and nitrogen molecules, hence a vertical column of
> water vapour weighs less than a vertical column of air. Consequently the
> pressure at the bottom of such a column is less, as the pressure is caused
> by the weight of the gas column).
> This column of light weight molecules is easily displaced by the heavier
> surrounding mass of cooler drier air, resulting in a powerful updraft.
> The resulting winds in turn tend to enhance evaporation ("wind chilling" the
> remaining liquid water), which produces more water vapour in the column,
> feeding the process.
> Now to the fix:- 
> Suppose that a quantity of dry ice were placed on the ground in the path of
> the tornado. As it sublimed, a layer of cold CO2 would form on the ground.
> As the tornado crossed this layer, it would "draw" the CO2 into the funnel.
> However CO2 is heavier than air, so this "diet" would destroy the lifting
> mechanism, and the tornado would run out of "puf".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 17:14:35 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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Robin's fix does follow the correct pattern of thought, the cosmological 
constant, although he does not give gravity the credit for the energy behind 
the motion of the updraft.  But it is the same in evaporation and the same 
in hurricanes.  Gravity pulls the more dense beneath the less dense thus 
pushing the less dense away, like I have been saying here for years, The 
Pearl of Wisdom.

Being able to predict a place or get enough dry ice would be impossible.

However a number of large helicopters circling a suspect area then swooping 
in under a decending funnel would do the trick.  It would snuff that thing 
right out.  Would not be a good idea to try once the funnel is fully formed. 
  But probably a lot of fun for the stunt pilot types.  The Tornado 
Snuffers.

Like the guys at the BBC are saying, the amateur scientists have beaten the 
"real scientists" to the punch throughout history time and time again.

David Dennard
Soon to be featured in "The Passions of Science" on the BBC.
They got it all down on record this time.
God Bless the internet.

________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 20:26:26 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: test......nothing in it.......
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Ross writes:
>Sorry............wonderful US patent law is on the side of the inventor!!!!!!

Hi Ross,

Glad you joined us again.  I do have to say darn and double darn now that I
have read your post, but that's OK, I understand.  The last serious reading
that I had done on the changing US patent law was before I decided to
copyleft everything, and at that time, the there was legislation introduced
that would have brought the US patent law more into the WTO approved,
international way of disclosing the patent as soon as it was filed.  I guess
that must not have cleared Congress, and I am more than a bit surprised.

>
>No peeking until they are approved.  That said, when we file 
>internationally, that will be a different story, and, we expect to publish 
>a paper at APS this fall, so, info is coming in a few months.  Until 
>then...............go read about Flynn for a low tech intro......   ;-)

Of course I have read as much Flynn as I could get my hands on from the net
as well as some of Dr. Gaitan's work, and also know that he (Flynn)
collaborated with Nobel Laureate Dr. Schwinger, Dr. Putterman, Hiller, and
others in his work on fusion.  He actually predated all of them in his
claims for fusion resulting from cavitation bubble collapse except perhaps
for Karl Shaeffer who was proposing that cavitation bubble collapse was at
least a plasma driven ionization process as early the mid 70's.  This was
before the Casimir Effect explanation became popular.

>
>US Boolean search page, author, Flynn......... and thermonuclear as key 
>word will get it for you.
>
>Here is a mystery for you:
>
>I am convinced there is no such thing as *cold* fusion or *cold* anything 
>nuclear for that matter.
>
>I am also convinced that PF style and other types of "cold fusion" 
>experiments produce nuclear reactions.
>
>IMO, the error is all in the forensics, and the "magic" in this case has 
>been faster than the eye................

In my reading, I have begun to speculate that all plasmas are actually
damped oscillators like the light emitting sonoluminescence bubble, and that
they are producing a form of RF that is substantially different from normal,
but collectable and tranformable into usable current by a number of methods.
One of those ways is to use bifilar coils, another is to use other plasma
devices such as flourescent lamps in close proximity, another possible way
is to orient other electrical devices that are spinning in close proximity
to your experiment such as generators or motors.  There are a number of
approaches or experiments that I would like to see tried, as you can
imagine.  I experienced quite a number of electrical anomolies while testing
my device, that could only be explained with some of the newer scalar or
longitudinal electromagnetic theories that I have yet to fully comprehend.

>From what I saw of your website, you have built a globular reaction chamber,
that you have claimed reduces the amount of input power necessary to achieve
a cavitation reaction.  I realize you cannot comment on this, so I offer to
the group some intuitive comments on the possibility of your research
direction.  I think that you have filled the chamber with a dialectric
medium in a zeolite form, and have accomplished the necessary input power
reduction by making use of the increased speed of sound and superior
conduction qualities of the zeolite as the soundwaves move through the
semi-solid, the cavities of which are filled with a working liquid.  If this
is so, then I think that this is a great idea, and you are probably working
on ways to achieve fusion without a breakdown of the zeolite structure
itself.  Even if the zeolite is eventually destroyed by the process, it
still may be a more cost effective way of accomplishing a massively
multibubble cavitation reaction.

The reason I have speculated in this direction is because of the recent
announcements by some of the oil companies that this or at least a similar
method is being used to crack petroleum products into hydrogen for use in
fuel cell powered autos of the future.  Another reason that I speculate in
this area is that I was interviewed (interrogated, actually) for three hours
by an executive of Halliburton, Brown and Root as to my own development
after Kelly Hudson of Hydrodynamics, Inc. showed them a process that his
group had developed.  He wouldn't say what the nature of the process was of
course, but it was obvious that they wanted my device pretty badly.  I told
them they could have it for free if they liked, which freaked the guy out
just a bit.  What they were offering was almost nothing anyway, so it didn't
matter to me.

There are a few questions that I would like to ask, and I think that it
would not risk any of your intellectual property if you answered.  There is
a technique for measuring cavitation efficiency in a given system that
involves the use of Potassium Iodide.  The exact details of this technique
are unknown to me, but I have speculated after reading some of the Lost
Letters of Michael Faraday that it involves a chemical change that produces
Nitric Acid.  A simple Ph test after cavitating aereated water, for example,
would tell how much cavitation was actually being accomplished in a given
system.  Are you aware of this technique, and if so, could you clarify the
test procedure?

In my own testing, I tested for the formation of H2O2, and those tests
resulted in a very stable formation of 2ppm in the output stream in certain
operating regimes.  If you are familiar with my flowthough designed device
however, and the instability of the H2O2 molecule itself in such a turbulent
environment, you may agree with me that much more H2O2 was actually produced
and destroyed in the process, and that a better method for testing the
efficiency of the system was necessary.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in your research, Ross.  You and Dr.
Gaitan will find some very useful things if you keep at it.  Even if you
don't accomplish fusion in a cost effective manner, you will have a system
that has already been been proven to be useful in an ever growing number of
industrial applications.  As for what some of those apps might be, you might
try remediating nuclear material, and you might try cracking Prions.  Both
apps, if the experiments were proven to be successful, would be real
moneymakers and lifesavers. Your post does have me really, really curious
though as to your working theories, and it looks as if you are preparing us
for something much more interesting, and totally new.  We look forward to
any comments that you make now, and in the future.

>Have fun.
>
>rt
>
>NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:21:23 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:44:58 -0700
(PDT):

>Robin
>	How much dry ice would you need to kill a typical tornado?
>Hank
My guess is that the resultant CO2 would need to be a few percent of the
volume of the funnel. How big is your typical tornado?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:52:49 -0400
(EDT):

>
>
>	Dear RvS.,
>
>	US  have tried seeding with dry ice pellets and small chips of Dry
>Ice... this works OK for seeding a cloud to rain.   So far it appears you
>need either perfect situation or you need  A BIG BUNCH  of dry ice.  I
Perhaps you would need a big bunch. I guess only a real test would tell.
This also brings with it the potential danger that the ground hugging CO2
cloud would suffocate the local population, so care would need to be taken
in placement, or the cure could be worse than the disease.
One mitigating factor in this danger is that tornadoes tend to act like
giant vacuum cleaners, so said cloud would automatically be drawn away from
the people toward the tornado.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 20:53:40 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:49:29 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  David Dennard's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:12:25 PDT:

>Robin's fix does follow the correct pattern of thought, the cosmological 
>constant, although he does not give gravity the credit for the energy behind 
>the motion of the updraft.  But it is the same in evaporation and the same 
>in hurricanes.  Gravity pulls the more dense beneath the less dense thus 
>pushing the less dense away, like I have been saying here for years, The 
>Pearl of Wisdom.
>
>Being able to predict a place or get enough dry ice would be impossible.

Perhaps, but it might be worth a trial, somewhere out on the prairie where
no one could be hurt.

>
>However a number of large helicopters circling a suspect area then swooping 
>in under a decending funnel would do the trick.  It would snuff that thing 

I'm not sure that a funnel that is only just descending would actually draw
in any gas from a layer near the ground. Do tornadoes start at both ends and
meet in the middle, or do they start at one end, or all over at once, but
only the top is visible at first, because it captures visible cloud mass,
and the rest doesn't become visible until it starts to sweep things up?


Another possibility is that towns be prepared with supplies of dry ice, that
they place in the path of tornadoes that are approaching the town,
so not all tornadoes are snuffed, only those likely to cause damage.

An interesting additional note, is that hurricanes tend to avoid dry land
(notice how they often travel parallel to the coast, or go back out to sea).
I suspect that this is because they are dynamic entities, that are
constantly being formed and destroyed, as they pass over areas with more or
less warm water. The edge of the system that touches dry land tends to die,
and the edge that touches warm moist water tends to grow, resulting in a
displacement of the centre of the system toward the warm moist water.
If the same were true of tornadoes, then they might automatically avoid the
CO2 clouds we lay down for them. (Apparently having a mind of their own).
This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it provides us with a tool for
altering the course of the beast.

Another thought that comes to mind is that an ice sheet might work just as
well as a CO2 cloud (no nice warm water to be had), so sprinkling dry ice on
top of a lake and thus freezing the topmost layer of the water, might work
equally well.

Another possibility for steering them might be to give them a source of warm
water where you DO want them to go, i.e. not through the middle of your
town.

>right out.  Would not be a good idea to try once the funnel is fully formed. 
>  But probably a lot of fun for the stunt pilot types.  The Tornado 
>Snuffers.

Yes, I think that's a moniker that might stick. :)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 22:01:28 2000
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Dear Gene,

I received 2 copies of Infinite Energy, issues 31 and 32 (so far as I
recall). The second issue arrived quite a bit after the first.

You might want to check your mailing list and possibly save yourself some
money. So far as I know, I have only one subscription. Anyway, that is my
intention.



=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 22:26:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:24:37 PDT
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Robin writes:

>I'm not sure that a funnel that is only just descending would actually draw 
>in any gas from a layer near the ground.

The just decending part is about the helicopeters, not the dry ice.

>Do tornadoes start at both ends and
>meet in the middle, or do they start at one end, or all over at once, but 
>only the top is visible at first, because it captures visible cloud mass, 
>and the rest doesn't become visible until it starts to sweep things up?

Actually they start side ways then stand up on end like a top.  The 
decending funnel is dropping like Thor's Hammer.

>Another possibility is that towns be prepared with supplies of dry ice, 
>that they place in the path of tornadoes that are approaching the town, so 
>not all tornadoes are snuffed, only those likely to cause damage.

A second wave of defense, but even then I'd go for large land based 
propellers to counter the updraft.

With our growing current awarness of the vortex, remember I reported PBS 
announced just this past year, "almost everything sciece thought to be true 
about the vortex has been shown to be wrong, and that scientists need to go 
back to the drawing board and start all over."

Since then I think science is starting to realize the big shot know it all 
attitude is out, new possible ways of looking at things is in.  Of course, 
as evident here, many are slow to catch on that it's a brand new ball bame 
and are still way out of bounds in right field patting themselves on the 
back thinking they are winners, or that they already know something, NOT.

Dr. Vear Rubin was right, "scientists are going to have to give up their 
most precious beliefs", even if they do delete my messages and never reply.

>
>An interesting additional note, is that hurricanes tend to avoid dry land
>(notice how they often travel parallel to the coast, or go back out to 
>sea).
>I suspect that this is because they are dynamic entities, that are
>constantly being formed and destroyed, as they pass over areas with more or
>less warm water. The edge of the system that touches dry land tends to die,
>and the edge that touches warm moist water tends to grow, resulting in a
>displacement of the centre of the system toward the warm moist water.
>If the same were true of tornadoes, then they might automatically avoid the
>CO2 clouds we lay down for them. (Apparently having a mind of their own).
>This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it provides us with a tool for
>altering the course of the beast.

Good comment, dry ice or not.  It is the mass of the water vapor that gives 
the hurricane is power.  I'm not sure we can do much to hurricanes until we 
get fleets of saucers built.  Sooner my work is recognized and supported the 
sooner that will happen.  Then we can get the "Hurricane Stompers" going.

Robin, I think your comments here have been some of the best I have ever 
seen on this list.  You are rising to the top.

David

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 16 22:58:21 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 05:19:41 GMT
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On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:21:23 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:44:58 -0700
>
>>	How much dry ice would you need to kill a typical tornado?
>
>My guess is that the resultant CO2 would need to be a few percent of the
>volume of the funnel. How big is your typical tornado?

Between 200 and 2000 feet diameter at the base -- occasionally up to
5000 feet.  They're usually about 1500 to 4000 feet high to the base
of the main cloud.

I'm guessing that you'd need about 100 to 1000 tons of dry ice and
some way to quickly sublimate it.

I wouldn't want to be the one to try positioning the dry ice in front
of the tornado (they usually move between 20 and 50 MPH, occasionally
up to 100 MPH) and the winds in the vortex/whirlpool/spiral vary
between 120 and 350 MPH.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 00:01:30 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 10:00 PM 8/16/0, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>Dear Gene,
>
>I received 2 copies of Infinite Energy, issues 31 and 32 (so far as I
>recall). The second issue arrived quite a bit after the first.
>
>You might want to check your mailing list and possibly save yourself some
>money. So far as I know, I have only one subscription. Anyway, that is my
>intention.


Gee, I haven't seen issue 32 yet.  Consider your self lucky!   I usually
get mine a lot later than most other subscribers, due to living in Alaska.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 01:40:32 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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Robin writes:
>Perhaps, but it might be worth a trial, somewhere out on the prairie where
>no one could be hurt.

We get a fair number of them here in Florida every year.  They start in the
Atlantic, and could possibly be stopped there using your suggestion.  One
thing is for certain, every sailor in the path of one is going the other way
as quickly as possible, so the chances of hurting anyone on the water are
slim to none.  The chance of snuffing out the delivering aircraft's oxygen
supply to the engines is something that should be considered, though.

It seems to me though that this idea has been batted around before, and
possibly even tested.  What is weird is that despite the billions of dollars
in damages that happen annually, still no means of stopping these regularly
occurring tornados is being deployed.  One clue as to why this is may be
that they bring rain to the farm areas that is desperately needed by the
farmers that are just inland enough as to not get damaged by the actual
storm.  Another clue may be that FEMA provides low-cost federal insurance to
homeowners and businesses on the coast, so there is really no incentive for
them to demand that the tornados be stopped.  In fact, it has worked out
just the opposite.  People down here buy dilapidated coastal properties and
have them appraised at a much higher than normal value, get the cheap
insurance from the government, and when the storm hits, the property falls
down, and they can build a new place in the same spot.  They build another
piece of garbage in the same place wait for it to happen again.  60 Minutes
or 20/20 did an expose on this a few years back, and some people managed to
pull this scam several times on the same lot.  One guy managed to make a
half a million bucks in 3 years.  Since the warning system has improved,
there is little physical danger to the people, and they just load up the
mini-van with all the stuff they want to keep, and go inland for a day or
two.  When they go back to their destroyed homes, they file their claims,
get the money and go on a massive shopping spree.  Retailers love it.

For the real estate and construction industries, retail industry, and the
farming industries, tornados are a cash cow.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 02:38:12 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:36:58 PDT
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Michael,

What a great description of the evilness of the love of money.  I seriously 
doubt snuffing a tornado will stop rain, or the engine will have trouble 
getting air.  No doubt, just like firefighting, it will be risky business.

But will it ever be tried?  Will science ever see that whirlpools will 
generate electricity?  Many sure thought a vortex would.  They just can't 
get a whirlpools through their thick skulls yet.

But mostly it is they can't accept it coming from me.  A poor nobody. If 
some big shot said all this you know they would be on it in a heart beat.  
True throughout history.

David Dennard
"the mouse that roared"
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:37:49 -0400
>
>Robin writes:
> >Perhaps, but it might be worth a trial, somewhere out on the prairie 
>where
> >no one could be hurt.
>
>We get a fair number of them here in Florida every year.  They start in the
>Atlantic, and could possibly be stopped there using your suggestion.  One
>thing is for certain, every sailor in the path of one is going the other 
>way
>as quickly as possible, so the chances of hurting anyone on the water are
>slim to none.  The chance of snuffing out the delivering aircraft's oxygen
>supply to the engines is something that should be considered, though.
>
>It seems to me though that this idea has been batted around before, and
>possibly even tested.  What is weird is that despite the billions of 
>dollars
>in damages that happen annually, still no means of stopping these regularly
>occurring tornados is being deployed.  One clue as to why this is may be
>that they bring rain to the farm areas that is desperately needed by the
>farmers that are just inland enough as to not get damaged by the actual
>storm.  Another clue may be that FEMA provides low-cost federal insurance 
>to
>homeowners and businesses on the coast, so there is really no incentive for
>them to demand that the tornados be stopped.  In fact, it has worked out
>just the opposite.  People down here buy dilapidated coastal properties and
>have them appraised at a much higher than normal value, get the cheap
>insurance from the government, and when the storm hits, the property falls
>down, and they can build a new place in the same spot.  They build another
>piece of garbage in the same place wait for it to happen again.  60 Minutes
>or 20/20 did an expose on this a few years back, and some people managed to
>pull this scam several times on the same lot.  One guy managed to make a
>half a million bucks in 3 years.  Since the warning system has improved,
>there is little physical danger to the people, and they just load up the
>mini-van with all the stuff they want to keep, and go inland for a day or
>two.  When they go back to their destroyed homes, they file their claims,
>get the money and go on a massive shopping spree.  Retailers love it.
>
>For the real estate and construction industries, retail industry, and the
>farming industries, tornados are a cash cow.
>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 06:53:56 2000
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:51:09 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, letters@newscientist.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
>explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the cold
>downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
>There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method. . . .

Given the severe drought conditions in Georgia and Florida, and the
stagnant air pollution hanging over Atlanta, the last thing we want to do
is "kill" tornadoes. They are a blessing.

People should not mess with the weather, or water tables, rivers, forests
or any other part of nature unless they must, or they are VERY sure it is
the right thing to do. Tornadoes do kill people, but so do bees, rivers and
lightning storms.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 07:15:29 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: JCF2 conference announcement
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This announcement is a little late. Scott Little should attend this if he
can. It would be a good chance to see the three experiments at Hokkaido U.
I think John Dash may attend.

- Jed


CALL FOR PAPER: The Second Japan Meeting on Nuclear Reactions in Solid (JCF2)

Place: The Academic Exchange Hall, Hokkaido University,
          Kita-hachijo-nishi-rokuchome, Kita-ku, Sapporo,     Japan

Date: October 21 and 22, 2000

Topics: Nuclear products, Excess heat, Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, Fusion,
Fission, Materials, Stimulation techniques, experiments, theories, CF
politics, etc.

Presentation Style: Oral Presentation, 20-25 min per paper

Abstract time limit: July 31, 2000

Second announcement (notification of program): August 31, 2000

Abstract style: A4 free format, 1-2 pages. English abstract is recommended.
Title, your name, affiliation, keywords, sentences, tables, figures and
references, as is usual.  Sending by an attached file on e-mail for
registration to:

mohata newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp
is fine. You can send it by fax too:

81-6-6879-7889

to:

JCF2 Takahashi Labo, Department of Nuclear Engineering, Graduate School
of Engineering, Osaka University,
Yamadaoka 2-1, Suita, Osaka, 565-0871 Japan

Inquiry to the local organization committee: To

Dr. Tadahiko Mizuno, Department of Quantum Energy Engineering, Hokkaido
University
mizuno qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp
Tel: 81-11-706-6689,   Fax: 81-11-706-7835

See web page (mostly in Japanese):

http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 07:49:51 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Voodoo
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:48:06 PDT
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Don't mess with tornados, but nuclear fission, fusion, gene manipulation, 
medicine, mining the ore, sucking the oil out of the planet, everything else 
is okay.

But we will not mess with tornados or whirlpools or consider messing with 
them.  They are scary ooooooh sooooo scary.  Part of nature.

Cracks me up.

David
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 09:05:43 2000
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:02:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
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>I think the laws of thermodynamics are a bogus as a three dollar bill.

Some times David you impress me with your observations. Other times 
you make me think that your dumb as a post. Those laws of 
thermodynamics work pretty well every time they are used, which is 
why they have the name law, as opposed to theory or principal 
attached to them.


>ZPE proves there is energy in the absence of heat.


As far as I know, no one has ever proven the existence of the ZPE by 
cohering it. There are other ways of accounting for the excess 
energy, matter into energy, slowing down the speed of subatomic 
particles are two that come to mind.

>
>
>>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>>
>>
>> > Our current sience is
>> > perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due to
>> > inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
>> > increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
>> >

      This is the second time I've heard that the Moon's orbital 
radius is increasing. Is this true? How can this be happening?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 09:12:45 2000
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000816151727.0079fe10 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:50:57 -0700
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The stored-program computer architecture which is standard in the industry
is commonly called the "Von Neumann" architecture because it was summarized
in a memo by Van Neumann at the time ENIAC was being built. ENIAC's modules
were reconfigured by switching cables for each new problem, in the style of
the IBM office machinery of the day.

One didn't have to be too bright to realize that the reconfigurations could
be done electronically instead of with patch cords, and many of the team
reach that conclusion but were too busy to write it up. This is the
essential concept of the stored program computer.

Van Neumann was a consultant, not involved in the pushing and shoving to get
the machine to work, and he had time write up the idea in a memo and so gain
credit for the idea, much to the annoyance of others who had also reached
the same conclusion before Van Neumann.

High performance parallel processors and digital signal processors don't use
the Van Neumann architecture in it traditional sense.

Mills has essentially completed a major phase of his theoretical work on the
BLP process and has a technical staff to continue experimental work in
development of implementations. He gives some attention to discussions of
his theories in the Hydrino Study Group list. He is extremely hardworking
and has some energy left to advance his theories in areas such as AI. AI
does by Van Neumann-type machines running algorithms may not get very far,
as intelligence is a property of neural networks, which are not Van Nuemann
machines in any sense.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 09:27:49 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:25:35 PDT
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Thomas,

Go read my Pearl of Wisdom.  Then tell me, is heat is "causing" evaporation 
or gravity is causing evaporation.

http://www.whirlpower.cc

See the part about the Moon's orbital radius.

The top scienctists on the flat space teams, (I'm taking Drs. of 
astrophysics, Lawence Livermore, clout, prestige, ect.) which has now been 
proven, say we are returning to the cosmolgical constant.  I have been 
saying it for years before flat space was even an issue.  That is the 
concept where gravity gives the energy of motion to all things.

Then let's talk how the orbital radius of the Moon is increasing.  And we 
can talk how the spiral galaxies are accelerating %90 unaccounted for by 
thermodynamic science, and why science can't explain the acceleration seen 
in the hurricane.

And why on Earth no scientist has ever built a whirlpool in all recorded 
history, well, that is ignorance unexcusable in my book.

David




>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:02:35 -0500
>
>>I think the laws of thermodynamics are a bogus as a three dollar bill.
>
>Some times David you impress me with your observations. Other times
>you make me think that your dumb as a post. Those laws of
>thermodynamics work pretty well every time they are used, which is
>why they have the name law, as opposed to theory or principal
>attached to them.
>
>
>>ZPE proves there is energy in the absence of heat.
>
>
>As far as I know, no one has ever proven the existence of the ZPE by
>cohering it. There are other ways of accounting for the excess
>energy, matter into energy, slowing down the speed of subatomic
>particles are two that come to mind.
>
>>
>>
>>>From: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Our current sience is
>>> > perpetual motion if someone things spiral galaxies are acclerating due 
>>>to
>>> > inertia from a hot bang, or think that the Moon's orbital radius is
>>> > increasing due to a fantasy explosion.
>>> >
>
>      This is the second time I've heard that the Moon's orbital
>radius is increasing. Is this true? How can this be happening?
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 12:10:15 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: David Dennard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:08:14 PDT
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I know how much you guys hate my spelling errors, so I am sending a 
corrected copy, and correcting my name being misspelled too!  :)


Thomas,

Go read my "Pearl of Wisdom".  Then tell me, is heat "causing"
evaporation or is gravity causing evaporation?

http://www.whirlpower.cc

See the part about the Moon's orbital radius.

The top scientists on the flat space teams, (I'm talking Drs. of
astrophysics, Lawrence Livermore, clout, prestiege, ect.) which has
now been proven, say we are returning to the cosmolgical constant.  I have 
been saying it for years before flat space was even an issue.  That is the 
concept where gravity gives the energy of motion to all things.

Then let's talk how the orbital radius of the Moon is increasing.
And we can talk how the spiral galaxies are accelerating %90 unaccounted for 
by thermodynamic science, and why science can't explain the acceleration 
seen in the hurricane.

And why on Earth no scientist has ever built a whirlpool in all
recorded history, well, that is ignorance unexcusable in my book.

David


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 12:17:13 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
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Subject: RE: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
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Thomas Malloy wrote:
>       This is the second time I've heard that the Moon's orbital 
> radius is increasing. Is this true?

Yes.

>How can this be happening?

It's a tidal effect.  See
http://www.astronomynotes.com/gravappl/gravapplb.htm
Scroll down to the bottom.  3cm recession per year.

Regards,
-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 13:03:12 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:01:01 CDT
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>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, letters@newscientist.com
>CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:51:09 -0400
>
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> >In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
> >explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the 
>cold
> >downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
> >There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method. . . .
>
>Given the severe drought conditions in Georgia and Florida, and the
>stagnant air pollution hanging over Atlanta, the last thing we want to do
>is "kill" tornadoes. They are a blessing.
>
>People should not mess with the weather, or water tables, rivers, forests
>or any other part of nature unless they must, or they are VERY sure it is
>the right thing to do. Tornadoes do kill people, but so do bees, rivers and
>lightning storms.
>
>- Jed
>

And we NEVER mess with Bees, Rivers, or Lightning...

killing the funnel would not necessarily kill the storm

Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 13:34:27 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:32:05 PDT
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That's what they say.  They say the Moon causes the tides, then they say the 
tides increase the orbital radius of the Moon.

Folks, THAT is perpetual motion.

In Whirlpower Theory the tides come from the wobble, the Third Wave, the 
distance off dead center of the axis of the poles on every revolution.  The 
tides are the equivilant of the dual radial arm pattern seen in hurricanes, 
spiral galaxies and our little whirlpool modles.  That is why there are two 
tides a day.  approx.

This action, the wobble is frame dragging the moon to a higger orbit, ever 
so slowly.

There are three notes to the cosmic chord (precession), the long slow 
precession, Chandler's wobble, and the Third Wave.

The Third Wave is the Phoenix Wave, the dual radial arms.

David Dennard
The Prince of Tides


>From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: David Dendard's Statements and the Moon's orbital radius
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:15:10 -0700
>
>
>Thomas Malloy wrote:
> >       This is the second time I've heard that the Moon's orbital
> > radius is increasing. Is this true?
>
>Yes.
>
> >How can this be happening?
>
>It's a tidal effect.  See
>http://www.astronomynotes.com/gravappl/gravapplb.htm
>Scroll down to the bottom.  3cm recession per year.
>
>Regards,
>-Steve
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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Merlyn, voodoo slayer.  Calls it seeeeerike ONE!


>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:01:01 CDT
>
>>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, letters@newscientist.com
>>CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
>>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:51:09 -0400
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>
>> >In your feature article "The Weatherman" (New Scientist 12 Aug.), you
>> >explicate Dr. Eastlund's proposal for killing tornadoes by heating the
>>cold
>> >downdraft with a microwave beam from a satellite.
>> >There may however be a much cheaper and simpler method. . . .
>>
>>Given the severe drought conditions in Georgia and Florida, and the
>>stagnant air pollution hanging over Atlanta, the last thing we want to do
>>is "kill" tornadoes. They are a blessing.
>>
>>People should not mess with the weather, or water tables, rivers, forests
>>or any other part of nature unless they must, or they are VERY sure it is
>>the right thing to do. Tornadoes do kill people, but so do bees, rivers 
>>and
>>lightning storms.
>>
>>- Jed
>>
>
>And we NEVER mess with Bees, Rivers, or Lightning...
>
>killing the funnel would not necessarily kill the storm
>
>Merlyn
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Killing tornadoes
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Adam Cox wrote:

>And we NEVER mess with Bees, Rivers, or Lightning...

I said "unless we must . . ." There is no need to fool around with
tornadoes, which bring far more benefit than harm. Bees are best left alone
unless they build a nest in your wall (which happened to me last month).
Bees kill more people in North America than any other creature, but ya'
gotta have 'em or the flowers and trees will not bloom. I have never heard
of people messing with lightning, unless you count lightning rods.


>killing the funnel would not necessarily kill the storm

But if it did, it would be a worse disaster than the likely damage from the
tornado.

In the last century people have done many unwarranted, idiotic things
interfering with natural processes in North America, such as damming up
rivers, building on flood plains, narrowing channels, "preventing" floods
with dikes, and preventing forest fires in areas where they occur
frequently and cause no great harm. Forests which have not burned for 50
years are now burning out of control with huge piles of deadwood. The
flames reach the tops of tall trees, destroying everything, instead of only
burning the underbrush and the smaller trees. After Yellowstone finally
burned a few years ago, it recovered almost immediately and it is now in
better health than it has been in decades. Hundreds of millions of dollars
in "fire suppression" in the big national parks was not only a terrific
waste of money, it was actually destroying the health of the forests. It
was like shooting the wolves that cull weak and sick antelopes -- you end
up with fewer antelopes.

Stopping a tornado once or twice would be a worthwhile scientific
experiment, but it should not be done on a regular basis without extreme
care and long-term observations, because it is very likely to cause more
harm than good. Also it would probably cost far more money than it saves. I
realize that tornadoes kill people and destroy property. They are common in
Georgia. A few years ago one touched down a mile north of my house and
destroyed hundreds of houses in Atlanta, killing one person. But the
solution to that problem is to improve prediction and warning systems, and
to tighten up the building standards. Most people killed are in trailer
houses, which are made out of tin foil.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 14:29:45 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Boron as closed-cycle chemical fuel
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Here is an interesting proposal:

http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html#BorontheWieldy

I do not think this is practical, but the author says it would be more
practical than hydrogen and he makes some good points:

"A Preliminary Conclusion

To the question of this document's title the answer suggested by the data
above is plainly Yes. As a synthetic fuel, boron is better than hydrogen. 

This is true even though hydrogen carries much more energy per unit mass
than boron. A pound of boron replaces 1.2 pounds of liquid hydrocarbon, a
pound of hydrogen replaces 2.5 pounds of it, so it might seem hydrogen
replaces 2.1 times its mass in boron. That's not how it works out. 

Boron's compactness means a gallon of boron replaces at least 11 gallons of
liquid hydrogen. The boron is heavier. But its inert solidity allows its
safe containment in (e.g.) a paper bag, where liquid hydrogen requires a
tank that is not just 11 times roomier on the inside, but thick-walled, to
keep the cold in. The weight of boron plus bag is less than the weight of
hydrogen plus cryogenic containment.

By fitting the same energy in a smaller space under a car's skin, boron
allows a small drag reduction. . . ."


Cryogenic containment (like LNG) is extreme, I think. Conventional
compressed gas or hydride storage is probably better. Also, the author is
comparing boron and hydrogen combustion, but hydrogen fuel cells would be
more efficient, according to NREL.

If CF or some other anomalous energy can only be produced in large,
centralized plants, like today's fission, then we will need something like
hydrogen or boron for vehicle propulsion. Electricity would be better for
domestic and factory use, since we already have the distribution network. I
hope, however, that CF can be made to work on any scale, and that it can be
turned on and off rapidly. (Or it might be turned down to a very low,
standby power level.) That would eliminate both chemical fuel and the
electric power distribution network.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 15:10:47 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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I got an idea, let's build a whrilpool and generate clean power and stop the 
voodoo.

David


>From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: Boron as closed-cycle chemical fuel
>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:26:56 -0400
>
>Here is an interesting proposal:
>
>http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html#BorontheWieldy
>
>I do not think this is practical, but the author says it would be more
>practical than hydrogen and he makes some good points:
>
>"A Preliminary Conclusion
>
>To the question of this document's title the answer suggested by the data
>above is plainly Yes. As a synthetic fuel, boron is better than hydrogen.
>
>This is true even though hydrogen carries much more energy per unit mass
>than boron. A pound of boron replaces 1.2 pounds of liquid hydrocarbon, a
>pound of hydrogen replaces 2.5 pounds of it, so it might seem hydrogen
>replaces 2.1 times its mass in boron. That's not how it works out.
>
>Boron's compactness means a gallon of boron replaces at least 11 gallons of
>liquid hydrogen. The boron is heavier. But its inert solidity allows its
>safe containment in (e.g.) a paper bag, where liquid hydrogen requires a
>tank that is not just 11 times roomier on the inside, but thick-walled, to
>keep the cold in. The weight of boron plus bag is less than the weight of
>hydrogen plus cryogenic containment.
>
>By fitting the same energy in a smaller space under a car's skin, boron
>allows a small drag reduction. . . ."
>
>
>Cryogenic containment (like LNG) is extreme, I think. Conventional
>compressed gas or hydride storage is probably better. Also, the author is
>comparing boron and hydrogen combustion, but hydrogen fuel cells would be
>more efficient, according to NREL.
>
>If CF or some other anomalous energy can only be produced in large,
>centralized plants, like today's fission, then we will need something like
>hydrogen or boron for vehicle propulsion. Electricity would be better for
>domestic and factory use, since we already have the distribution network. I
>hope, however, that CF can be made to work on any scale, and that it can be
>turned on and off rapidly. (Or it might be turned down to a very low,
>standby power level.) That would eliminate both chemical fuel and the
>electric power distribution network.
>
>- Jed
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 15:27:45 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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>The stored-program computer architecture which is standard in the industry
>is commonly called the "Von Neumann" architecture because it was summarized
>in a memo by Van Neumann at the time ENIAC was being built. ENIAC's modules
>were reconfigured by switching cables for each new problem, in the style of
>the IBM office machinery of the day.
>
>One didn't have to be too bright to realize that the reconfigurations could
>be done electronically instead of with patch cords, and many of the team
>reach that conclusion but were too busy to write it up. This is the
>essential concept of the stored program computer.
>
>Van Neumann was a consultant, not involved in the pushing and shoving to get
>the machine to work, and he had time write up the idea in a memo and so gain
>credit for the idea, much to the annoyance of others who had also reached
>the same conclusion before Van Neumann.

>From what I've read, Ekhart and Mauchley developed the ENIAC, which took
them over a decade of their lives.  Von Neumann took a tour of the facility,
made some comments to his entourage, and they credited him with the entire
development of the ENIAC.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 15:42:48 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:40:43 PDT
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I used to live at the beach, long ago, taught sailing to college kids.

The tides came in and out.  Pretty regular thing.  The water would come up 
to a point and go down to a point, very predictable.  The line in the sand 
was always about the same.  The line on the docks always about the same.  Of 
course a storm would make a little difference.

During a month, half the month the Moon is on the same side of the Earth as 
the Sun, the other half on the other side of the Earth.  Didn't seem to 
makes the tide any different. Seems is gravity from the Moon was causing the 
tides there would be a change.

I don't think the gravity from the Moon is moving the oceans.  I don't think 
it is strong enough.

And if it did why doesn't it just bulge out towards the Moon?

Why a bulge on the other side too?  If the Sun is a factor why no change 
when both the Moon and Sun are on the same side?

David

________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 17:10:47 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: FWD: Russian Scientists demonstrate Magnetic-Gravity Effects    
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Is this an old message?  I don't remember seeing it before (below).

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

> >-----Original Message----- 
> >From:	Tony Craddock [SMTP:webmaster cseti.org]
> >Sent:	Tuesday, August 15, 2000 5:10 PM 
> >To:	webmaster cseti.org
> >Subject:	Russian Scientists demonstrate Magnetic-Gravity Effects    
> >
> >In a paper published in June, 2000, V.V. Roschin and S.M. Godin, two
> >Members of the Institute for High Temperatures, Russian Academy of
> >Sciences, Moscow,
> >describe some amazing magnetic-gravity effects they have  achieved on
> >the lab bench that parallel the breakthrough Anti-Gravity  research
> >results released this year by Brazilian physicist Fran de Aquino. The
> >Russian device, loosely derived from the legendary Searl Generator,
> >exhibited the following anomalous characteristics: The rotor of the
> >converter self-accelerated. At 550 RPM, the weight of the device
> >changed rapidly.  The weight also depended on the power removed into
> >the active load. The weight
> >ultimately was reduced to 35% of the initial value.  In a  darkened
> >room the converter rotor had a blue-pink luminescent coronic
> >discharge. The device created a vertical magnetic wall around the
> >installation, with sharp edge separation. There was an abnormal fall
> >of temperature of 6-8 deg C in the lab, and also  within the magnetic
> >walls, which could be clearly felt by hand. To quote from the Paper:
> >"All the results we obtained are extremely unusual and require some
> >theoretical explanation." The complete
> >paper (in English) can be downloaded from the CSETI Website. A
> >Department of Energy spokesperson commented to CSETI: "we have not been
> >able to find any fault with the theory or the  experimental setup that
> >Dr. De Aquino
> >supplied nor have we found fault in  Dr.  Godin's experimental work in
> >Moscow.  Both experiments offer insight  into controlling gravity and
> >inertia through electromagnetics and should  provide a good basis for
> >development of improved experiments and theory." Onwards and upwards
> >(literally!) Tony Craddock   
> >Regards Tony Craddock Web Administrator CSETI
> >http://www.cseti.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 18:43:41 2000
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> Is this an old message?  I don't remember seeing it before (below).
> 

You are right. This appears as new. I did a quick search about authors, results are fruitless.

"S.M. Godin" likely is Sergey M. Godin is referenced on J.Naudin pages of The "Nicolay Zaev Generator"

One can write to author(serjio glasnet.ru) ask whether the news is real.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 17 20:41:34 2000
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Bill and Hamdi wrote:
>You are right. This appears as new. I did a quick search about authors,
results are fruitless.
>
>"S.M. Godin" likely is Sergey M. Godin is referenced on J.Naudin pages of
The "Nicolay Zaev Generator"
>
>One can write to author(serjio glasnet.ru) ask whether the news is real.

It's new.  I was just at that site about a week ago, and read pretty much
all they had.  I would have remembered this, I am pretty sure.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 03:49:49 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Boron as closed-cycle chemical fuel
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>Here is an interesting proposal:
>
>http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html#BorontheWieldy

That is a pretty weirdly designed webpage, almost like a clipping page for
an article that hasn't been organized yet.  One thing that I didn't see on
the page was the mention of the production of boric acid as a result of
electrolysis due to saltwater flow over the surface of dissimilar metals.
It can be quite significant.  This is a common problem that is dealt with on
ships by the use of zinc plugs or sacrificial cathodes.  This happens in
saltwater cooled engine blocks, reefer compressors, heat exchangers, all
pumps, plumbing and on the hull.  People with fiberglass boats think that
they are immune to this kind of attach, but if they are docked between a
steel boat and an aluminum boat, for example, the entire fiberglass hull of
some very expensive sailing boats have been known to have been eaten away
completely in as little as a weeks time.

Another interesting safety note from the website:

*************
        ... General Electric Company undertook a research and development
program
        in Malta, N.Y., which actually made commercial quantities, several
hundred
        pounds of diborane, pentaborane and decaborane. These more stable boron
        hydrides are the contributions of Alfred Stock.

        All went well until about 1948, when the plant was cleaned and
washed out
        with carbon tetrachloride, not realizing that carbon tetrachloride and
        decaborane form an explosive mixture equivalent to nitroglycerin.
The plant
        was blown away. So, live and learn. Anton Berg at USC had warned
them that
        this might happen. They did it nonetheless.
******************

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 05:07:56 2000
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Hi Michael,

It may be new, but is S. M. Godin or Sergey M. Godin a member of
of the Institute for High Temperatures, Russian Academy of Sciences?
Unfortunately, the main page of Institute for High Temperatures is under
construction and could not found a page about members rather than of 
Theoretical Department http://oivtran.iitp.ru/~theor/staff.htm.


Beside, I think it is not a good practice that cseti.org or any institution
which is not directly related to physics literature give *unreferenced* physics
news on their pages. This is clearly prone to hoax.  I hope CSETI care about it.


Michael T Huffman wrote:
> 
> Bill and Hamdi wrote:
> >You are right. This appears as new. I did a quick search about authors,
> results are fruitless.
> >
> >"S.M. Godin" likely is Sergey M. Godin is referenced on J.Naudin pages of
> The "Nicolay Zaev Generator"
> >
> >One can write to author(serjio glasnet.ru) ask whether the news is real.
> 
> It's new.  I was just at that site about a week ago, and read pretty much
> all they had.  I would have remembered this, I am pretty sure.
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>From what I've read, Ekhart and Mauchley developed the ENIAC, which took
>them over a decade of their lives.  Von Neumann took a tour of the facility,
>made some comments to his entourage, and they credited him with the entire
>development of the ENIAC.

That's nonense. Von Neumann never took credit for the ENIAC. His
contribution came after ENIAC, in the design of the first stored program
machines: "First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC" (1945). He was the sole
author. He wrote seminal papers on control and logic design, and later
contributed to error correction techniques. "Von Neumann architecture" has
come to refer to a single processor, serial design, but in fact he
pioneered parallel computer designs too.

Von Neuman was a child prodigy, a party animal and boastful man who knew
his own worth. I gather he rubbed people the wrong way. But no one should
underestimate his contributions.


(And by the way, if anyone would like to hear what he sounded like, I have
a rare recording of a speech he gave shortly before he died, in .au format,
2 MB long.)

- Jed

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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:45:43 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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The District Court ruled against Black Light Power in their dispute with
the U.S. Patent Office. See:

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/00-422a.pdf
  
It serves BLP right. Without the support of the public they cannot win.
They are wasting their investors money. They could have all the patents
they want in a few months if they would only act rationally.

I would be happy about this news if I thought it would jog some sense into
these people, but I do not think it will. They will go on the way CETI did
with this same brain-dead business strategy, pissing away other people's
money and wasting time, until the money is gone and opportunities are lost
forever.

A business, a school or some other institution will sometimes get into a
rut because a stubborn, foolish person makes a mistake, and he will not see
he is the problem, no matter how bad things get. It happens with
individuals too, but I think groups and institutions are more prone to it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 11:21:04 2000
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: BLP loses appeal on patent
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Vo,

The following was snipped from the Hydrino Study Group:


************************************
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:45:34 EDT
From: ErikBaard aol.com
Subject: BlackLight Loses Legal Round

Hi All -=20

BlackLight Power Inc. lost a legal round against the U.S. Patent and =
Trade=20
Office on Tuesday in U.S. District Court.  BlackLight founder Dr. =
Randell=20
Mills has 60 days to file an appeal.

You may recall from my Empire Strikes Back=20
(http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0017/baard.shtml) article in the =
Village=20
Voice that, under what seem to be unusual circumstances, the PTO pulled =
back=20
Mills' "hydrino" chemistry patent application just before issuance.  It =
was=20
so near approval that the issue fee was paid and the Official Gazette of =
the=20
PTO published it as approved.

Arguing that no new objections were articulated by the PTO, BlackLight=20
challenged the withdrawal as a violation of procedure.  The Court =
decided=20
that the PTO was within its rights to withdraw any application at any =
time=20
before it issues.  No science issues were addressed in the ruling and it =

wasn't the focus of testimony.

I hear that Dr. Peter Zimmerman, a man described in the article, made =
some=20
revealing statements in his testimony, but I have not read the =
transcripts. =20
I won't repeat what I've heard, but I will take a look at the =
transcripts=20
soon. =20

The decision is posted at www.dcd.uscourts.gov under Rules and Opinions.

I don't have the time and resources to write a separate story about this =
and=20
beg and scramble to find an outlet for this small news item, and appeals =

could keep the status quite quo for a long time.  Also, I prefer to =
write=20
about novel ideas rather than endless legal proceedings.  But for the =
small=20
community interested in these matters, please feel free to reproduce =
this=20
text in any discussion groups that might gain it.

A closing thought -- Those with greater legal qualifications than I have =

might look into how this slight broadening of PTO powers might affect=20
technology firms.

Sincerely,

Erik Baard

**************************************

I read the US District Court's decision and found it to be mainly an =
coin toss (because of case law and interpretations) on interpreting the =
regulation concerning the withdrawing by the PTO of Mills' second patent =
on the grounds that it had claims that were unpatentable.  The section =
of the law seems quite clear:


{35 USC 151, Section 151

If it appears that the applicant is entitled to a patent under the law, =
a written notice of allowance of the application shall be fiben or =
mailed to the applicant.  The notice shall specify a sum, constituting =
the issue fee or a portion thereof, which shall be paid within three =
months thereafter.

Upon payment of this sum the patent shall issue, but if payment is not =
timely made, the appilcation shall be regarded as abandoned. }

The PTO issued a notice on 10/18/99, referring to the '294 patent, which =
was withdrawn, that read:=20

{The application identified above has been examined and is allowed for =
issuance as a patent.  Prosecution on the merits is closed.

The issue fee must be paid within three months from the mailing date on =
this notice}

Payment was made by BLP 3 days later, and the Patent Gazette published =
it as a granted patent.

The court's ruling, among other things, "stated that the Director's =
decision to withdraw the patent from issue did not constitute either a =
rejection or an adverse action on the ultimate determination of =
unpatentability." and ". . . determination of unpatentability will =
necessarily represenet only a possibility of unpatentability, since such =
a determination as defendatn has made abundzantly clear, isnot in any =
way a final rejection.  The PTO's withdrawal of plaintiff's patent =
application in order to reconsider its patentability was neither =
arbitrary nor capricious."

The fact that the patent examiner did recognize the unusual nature of =
the claims and did conduct an interview with the patentee before =
approving the patent had no apparent impact on the court's ruling.

To summarize, BLP did not succeed in forcing the PTO to grant this and 5 =
other filed patents on regulatory grounds, but the judge was not =
favorably impressed with the PTO's performance:

"This court is troubled by several steps in the PTO's process, however.  =
Defendant claims that the technology of the '294 application contravenes =
fundamental laws of chemistry andphysics, yet the application was =
approved by a patent examiner, never reviewed by a supervisor, and woudl =
have issued as appatent but for the PTO's eleventh hour withdrawal.  =
Defendant conceded at the May 22, 2000 hearing that the '294 application =
was withdrawn just days before the inssuance data without the benefit of =
any PTO employee's re-evaluating the file.  Also, the February 17 =
Notice, released twelve days before the scheduled issue date, gave no =
reason for the withdrawal besides a cryptic citation to 37 CFR, section =
1.313(b) (3)."

This is likely to be used as justification for the Director of the PTO =
to appeal for more funding and more examiners.  The fact that the =
examiners are not necessarily able to make determination of the =
scientific or any other kind of validity of the claims is nothing new.  =
The only way to further validate the claims is to conduct scientific =
inquiry or examine scientific references, which were no doubt presented =
by the patentee during the interview.

Section 1.313 (b) (3) is very simple and only refers to not granting a =
patent on the grounds of "unpatentability."   Plaintiff's allegation of =
"arbitrary and capricious" motivation on the PTO's part in withdrawing =
the patent are well founded.

Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
www.infinite-energy.com  ewall infinite-energy.com


There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which =
cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is =
contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer, British philosopher

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vo,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The following was snipped from the =
Hydrino Study=20
Group:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>************************************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:45:34 EDT<BR>From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:ErikBaard aol.com">ErikBaard@aol.com</A><BR>Subject: =
BlackLight=20
Loses Legal Round<BR><BR>Hi All - <BR><BR>BlackLight Power Inc. lost a =
legal=20
round against the U.S. Patent and Trade <BR>Office on Tuesday in U.S. =
District=20
Court.&nbsp; BlackLight founder Dr. Randell <BR>Mills has 60 days to =
file an=20
appeal.<BR><BR>You may recall from my Empire Strikes Back <BR>(<A=20
href=3D"http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0017/baard.shtml">http://www.v=
illagevoice.com/issues/0017/baard.shtml</A>)=20
article in the Village <BR>Voice that, under what seem to be unusual=20
circumstances, the PTO pulled back <BR>Mills' "hydrino" chemistry patent =

application just before issuance.&nbsp; It was <BR>so near approval that =
the=20
issue fee was paid and the Official Gazette of the <BR>PTO published it =
as=20
approved.<BR><BR>Arguing that no new objections were articulated by the =
PTO,=20
BlackLight <BR>challenged the withdrawal as a violation of =
procedure.&nbsp; The=20
Court decided <BR>that the PTO was within its rights to withdraw any =
application=20
at any time <BR>before it issues.&nbsp; No science issues were addressed =
in the=20
ruling and it <BR>wasn't the focus of testimony.<BR><BR>I hear that Dr. =
Peter=20
Zimmerman, a man described in the article, made some <BR>revealing =
statements in=20
his testimony, but I have not read the transcripts.&nbsp; <BR>I won't =
repeat=20
what I've heard, but I will take a look at the transcripts =
<BR>soon.&nbsp;=20
<BR><BR>The decision is posted at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov">www.dcd.uscourts.gov</A> under =
Rules and=20
Opinions.<BR><BR>I don't have the time and resources to write a separate =
story=20
about this and <BR>beg and scramble to find an outlet for this small =
news item,=20
and appeals <BR>could keep the status quite quo for a long time.&nbsp; =
Also, I=20
prefer to write <BR>about novel ideas rather than endless legal=20
proceedings.&nbsp; But for the small <BR>community interested in these =
matters,=20
please feel free to reproduce this <BR>text in any discussion groups =
that might=20
gain it.<BR><BR>A closing thought -- Those with greater legal =
qualifications=20
than I have <BR>might look into how this slight broadening of PTO powers =
might=20
affect <BR>technology firms.<BR><BR>Sincerely,<BR><BR>Erik =
Baard<BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial =
size=3D2>**************************************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I read the US District Court's decision =
and found=20
it to be mainly an coin toss (because of case law and interpretations) =
on=20
interpreting the regulation concerning the withdrawing by the PTO of =
Mills'=20
second patent on the grounds that it had claims that were =
unpatentable.&nbsp;=20
The section of the law seems quite clear:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>{35 USC 151, Section 151</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If it appears that the applicant is =
entitled to a=20
patent under the law, a written notice of allowance of the application =
shall be=20
fiben or mailed to the applicant.&nbsp; The notice shall specify a sum,=20
constituting the issue fee or a portion thereof, which shall be paid =
within=20
three months thereafter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Upon payment of this sum the patent =
shall issue,=20
but if payment is not timely made, the appilcation shall be regarded as=20
abandoned.&nbsp;}</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The PTO issued a notice on 10/18/99, =
referring to=20
the '294 patent, which was withdrawn,&nbsp;that read: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>{The application identified above has =
been examined=20
and is allowed for issuance as a patent.&nbsp; Prosecution on the merits =
is=20
closed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The issue fee must be paid within three =
months from=20
the mailing date on this notice}</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Payment was made by BLP 3 days later, =
and the=20
Patent Gazette published it as a granted patent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The court's ruling, among other things, =
"stated=20
that the Director's decision to withdraw the patent from issue did not=20
constitute either a rejection or an adverse action on the ultimate =
determination=20
of unpatentability." and ". . . determination of unpatentability will=20
necessarily represenet only a possibility of unpatentability, since such =
a=20
determination as defendatn has made abundzantly clear, isnot in any way =
a final=20
rejection.&nbsp; The PTO's withdrawal of plaintiff's patent application =
in order=20
to reconsider its patentability was neither arbitrary nor=20
capricious."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The fact that the patent examiner did =
recognize the=20
unusual nature of the claims and did conduct an interview with the =
patentee=20
before approving the patent had no apparent impact on the court's=20
ruling.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To summarize, BLP did not succeed in =
forcing the=20
PTO to grant this and 5 other filed patents on regulatory grounds, but =
the judge=20
was not favorably impressed with the PTO's performance:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"This court is troubled by several =
steps in the=20
PTO's process, however.&nbsp; Defendant claims that the technology of =
the '294=20
application contravenes fundamental laws of chemistry andphysics, yet =
the=20
application was approved by a patent examiner, never reviewed by a =
supervisor,=20
and woudl have issued as appatent but for the PTO's eleventh hour=20
withdrawal.&nbsp; Defendant conceded at the May 22, 2000 hearing that =
the '294=20
application was withdrawn just days before the inssuance data without =
the=20
benefit of any PTO employee's re-evaluating the file.&nbsp; Also, the =
February=20
17 Notice, released twelve days before the scheduled issue date, gave no =
reason=20
for the withdrawal besides a cryptic citation to 37 CFR, section =
1.313(b)=20
(3)."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is likely to be used as =
justification for the=20
Director of the PTO to appeal for more funding and more examiners.&nbsp; =
The=20
fact that the examiners are not necessarily&nbsp;able to make =
determination of=20
the scientific or any other kind of validity of the claims is nothing =
new.&nbsp;=20
The only way to further validate the claims is to conduct scientific =
inquiry or=20
examine scientific references, which were no doubt presented by the =
patentee=20
during the interview.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Section 1.313 (b) (3) is very simple =
and only=20
refers to not granting a patent on the grounds of =
"unpatentability."&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Plaintiff's allegation of "arbitrary and capricious" motivation on the =
PTO's=20
part in withdrawing the patent are well founded.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Wall</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>New Energy Research Laboratory<BR>Cold =
Fusion=20
Technology, Inc.<BR>PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.infinite-energy.com">www.infinite-energy.com</A>&nbsp;=
 <A=20
href=3D"mailto:ewall infinite-energy.com">ewall@infinite-energy.com</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There is a principle which is a bar =
against all=20
information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting =
ignorance--that=20
principle is contempt prior to investigation."<BR>Herbert Spencer, =
British=20
philosopher</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 12:18:52 2000
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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:22:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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	Dear Jed,

	I am unable to work with pdf ... Can you please give us a 2 cent
brief on what the dispute is?

			Thanks,

			John



On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The District Court ruled against Black Light Power in their dispute with
> the U.S. Patent Office. See:
> 
> http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/00-422a.pdf
>   
> It serves BLP right. Without the support of the public they cannot win.
> They are wasting their investors money. They could have all the patents
> they want in a few months if they would only act rationally.
> 
> I would be happy about this news if I thought it would jog some sense into
> these people, but I do not think it will. They will go on the way CETI did
> with this same brain-dead business strategy, pissing away other people's
> money and wasting time, until the money is gone and opportunities are lost
> forever.
> 
> A business, a school or some other institution will sometimes get into a
> rut because a stubborn, foolish person makes a mistake, and he will not see
> he is the problem, no matter how bad things get. It happens with
> individuals too, but I think groups and institutions are more prone to it.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 12:54:55 2000
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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:42:27 -0400
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Subject: Re: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:

>	I am unable to work with pdf ... Can you please give us a 2 cent
>brief on what the dispute is?

I suggest you equip yourself with software to read .pdf files and web
pages. You are shortchanging yourself, and bothering people when you ask
for help.

I do not understand the legal terminology of the judgement. Here is the
first part of the Introduction:


UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
)
BLACKLIGHT POWER, INC. )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
v. ) Civil Action No. 00-422 (EGS)
) [11-1][13-1]
)
Q. TODD DICKINSON, )
Commissioner of Patents )
and Trademarks, )
)
Defendant. )
)
MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER

I. Introduction

Plaintiff Blacklight Power, Inc., alleges that defendant Q. Todd Dickinson,
Commissioner of the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO), violated the
Administrative Procedure Act (APA), 5 U.S.C. § 706 et seq., when the PTO
withdrew one and threatened to withdraw four others of plaintiff's patents
from issue after plaintiff had received a "Notice of Allowance and Issue
Fee Due" and payed the issue fee. The issues presented are whether the
defendant had the authority to withdraw plaintiff's patent after plaintiff
had paid the issue fee, and, if defendant did have the authority, whether
that withdrawal was arbitrary and capricious. Plaintiff claims that
defendant's actions were arbitrary and capricious, and that the internal
regulation on which defendant relies contravenes the governing patent
statute. Pending before the Court are the parties' cross motions for
summary judgment. Upon consideration of the parties' motions, memoranda in
support, responses in opposition, replies in support, and the arguments at
the May 22, 2000 motions hearing, plaintiff's motion for summary judgment
[11-1] is DENIED, and defendant's motion for summary judgment [13-1] is
GRANTED.

II. Factual Background


Plaintiff has filed a series of five patent applications for technology
that, according to plaintiff, represents a new source of chemical energy
from hydrogen. One of these, titled "Lower-Energy Hydrogen Methods and
Structure," was filed March 21, 1997. This application was issued as U.S.
Patent No. 6,024,935 (the '935 patent) on February 15, 2000. Another of
these, Ser. No. 09/009,294 (the '294 application), titled "Hydride Ions,"
had been filed January 20, 1998. During prosecution of the '294
application, plaintiff cited over 130 prior art articles concerning "cold
fusion" and "perpetual motion." When the primary patent examiner raised
issues relating to the operability of the '294 technology, plaintiff
conducted a personal interview with the examiner to discuss the articles
and the operability issues. On October 18, 1999, defendant issued a Notice
of Allowance and Issue Fee Due for the '294 application (Notice). The
Notice reads:

THE APPLICATION IDENTIFIED ABOVE HAS BEEN EXAMINED AND IS ALLOWED FOR
ISSUANCE AS A PATENT. PROSECUTION ON THE MERITS IS CLOSED. THE ISSUE FEE
MUST BE PAID WITHIN THREE MONTHS FROM THE MAILING DATE OF THIS NOTICE . . .
Pl.'s Mot. for Summ. J., Ex. 2.

Plaintiff paid the issue fee three days later, October 21, 1999. See Pl.'s
Mot. for Summ. J., Ex. 3. Following payment of the issue fee, the '294
application was set to issue as U.S. Patent No. 6,030,601 on February 29,
2000. On February 17, 2000, twelve days before the '294 application was to
issue, Frances Hicks, a Petitions Examiner with the Office of Petitions,
Office of the Deputy Assistant Commissioner for Patent Policy Projects,
issued a Notice (February 17 Notice) informing plaintiff that, by request
of the Director of the Special Program Law Office, "the ['294] application
. . . is being withdrawn from issue pursuant to 37 C.F.R. § 1.313 . . . to
permit reopening of prosecution." Pl.'s Mot. for Summ. J., Ex. 4. It is
uncontested that the '294 application file was not in defendant's
possession at the time this Notice was sent.

Upon receiving the February 17 Notice, plaintiff's patent counsel began
investigating the circumstances surrounding the withdrawal, contacting
different PTO employees by telephone and by mail, including Ms. Hicks, and
Director Esther Kepplinger. On February 28, 2000, plaintiff's patent
counsel hand-delivered a final letter asking that the withdrawal be
reconsidered. Director Kepplinger met with him to receive the letter. She
conceded that she still did not have a copy of the '294 application, at
which time plaintiff's patent counsel provided her with a copy of his own
'294 application file. See Pl.'s Mot. for Summ. J. at 10; Melcher Decl. ¶
22. In that meeting, Director Kepplinger indicated that she was concerned
that the '294 technology involved "cold fusion" and "perpetual motion."1
She also stated that the PTO intended to withdraw from issue four others of
plaintiff's patents-in-application.2 See Verified Compl. ¶ 22.

Pursuant to 37 C.F.R. § 1.181(a)(3), defendant treated plaintiff's February
28 letters to the Commissioner, Director Robert Spar, and Director
Kepplinger, as a single petition requesting that the Commissioner exercise
his supervisory authority and reverse the PTO's withdrawal decision. In a
decision issued March 22, 2000 (March 22 Decision), defendant denied
plaintiff's petition, refused to rescind the February 17 Notice, and
disallowed plaintiff's patent. See Pl.'s Mot. for Summ. J., Ex. 8. The
March 22 Decision indicated that the reason behind the withdrawal of the
'294 application was its similarity to the '935 patent, both of which
claimed to attain energy levels below the ground state according to a
"novel atomic model." See Pl.'s Mot. for Summ. J., Ex. 8 at 2. Both claim
that the electron of a hydrogen atom can attain an energy level and orbit
below the 'ground state' corresponding to a fractional quantum number.
According to defendant, this assertion alarmed the Director, who had
examined the '935 patent, and who had learned of the '292 application,
because it "did not conform to the known laws of physics and chemistry."
Id. The March 22 Decision states that the Director "was immediately aware
that any pending application embodying such a concept raise[d] a
substantial question of patentability of one or more claims which would
require reopening prosecution."


etc., etc. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 13:44:04 2000
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000818152130.12848G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:20:38 -0400
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John,

If you read my post on the subject, you will see a summary of the court
document.

Ed

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In a message dated 08/16/2000 11:46:29 AM, Steven.Florek omnikron.com writes:

<< If Mills really

does have something to contribute, we shouldn't be dismissing him simply

because we are jealous or something.>>

Yes.  There's a lot of jealousy in the dismissal of Mills.  (This comment 
isn't aimed at Jed.  I'm thinking of many of his other critics.)

<<Whether he is arrogant or not is

beside the point--smart people tend to be arrogant.>>

Nobody's perfect, and Mills has his weaknesses, too; but arrogance isn't one 
of them in my experience.  High ambition, yes; arrogance, no.


<<Mills is trying to do a lot of things at

once and hasn't really brought any of them to completion.>>

Completion seems to mean commercialization here.  He's getting close with 
hydrino energy, and in a way that none of us dreamt of nine years ago and 
that hadn't even occurred to Mills himself back then.  He's made tremendous 
progress since he first surfaced in 1991.


Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 15:30:26 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: FWD: Russian Scientists demonstrate Magnetic-Gravity Effects
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Hamdi writes:
>Hi Michael,
>
>It may be new, but is S. M. Godin or Sergey M. Godin a member of
>of the Institute for High Temperatures, Russian Academy of Sciences?
>Unfortunately, the main page of Institute for High Temperatures is under
>construction and could not found a page about members rather than of 
>Theoretical Department http://oivtran.iitp.ru/~theor/staff.htm.
>
>
>Beside, I think it is not a good practice that cseti.org or any institution
>which is not directly related to physics literature give *unreferenced* physics
>news on their pages. This is clearly prone to hoax.  I hope CSETI care
about it.

Hi Hamdi,

Yes, you are right.  I was more than a bit surprised to learn from Scott at
how easy it was to get a preprint listed at LANL, as well.  It does indicate
a need for some acknowledgement at the very least that a disclaimer or
explanation of sorts should be included with these papers stating the level
to which the claim and even the existence of the claimant have been
verified.  The CSETI page isn't that large, and doesn't have nearly the
amount of material on it to verify, so they should be able to do this more
readily.  It could just be that the oversight involves the conception that
"everybody in the field knows Godin and his work", and that no effort needs
to be made to address the issue of verification.  I am fairly new to this
field myself, so I don't know all the established players at all.  We all
appreciate your efforts to see if these people actually even exist.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 15:51:10 2000
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Knuke, Hamdi
	As I understand it, the LANL is just a depository for papers, no
review, no investigation. Totally Lassisez-Faire. It is up to the reader
to do his own discriminating analysis and critical judgement. In no way is
it equivalent to publication.
Let the buyer be aware!

Hank

On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Hamdi writes:
> >Hi Michael,
> >
> >It may be new, but is S. M. Godin or Sergey M. Godin a member of
> >of the Institute for High Temperatures, Russian Academy of Sciences?
> >Unfortunately, the main page of Institute for High Temperatures is under
> >construction and could not found a page about members rather than of 
> >Theoretical Department http://oivtran.iitp.ru/~theor/staff.htm.
> >
> >
> >Beside, I think it is not a good practice that cseti.org or any institution
> >which is not directly related to physics literature give *unreferenced* physics
> >news on their pages. This is clearly prone to hoax.  I hope CSETI care
> about it.
> 
> Hi Hamdi,
> 
> Yes, you are right.  I was more than a bit surprised to learn from Scott at
> how easy it was to get a preprint listed at LANL, as well.  It does indicate
> a need for some acknowledgement at the very least that a disclaimer or
> explanation of sorts should be included with these papers stating the level
> to which the claim and even the existence of the claimant have been
> verified.  The CSETI page isn't that large, and doesn't have nearly the
> amount of material on it to verify, so they should be able to do this more
> readily.  It could just be that the oversight involves the conception that
> "everybody in the field knows Godin and his work", and that no effort needs
> to be made to address the issue of verification.  I am fairly new to this
> field myself, so I don't know all the established players at all.  We all
> appreciate your efforts to see if these people actually even exist.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 17:18:00 2000
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Subject: Re: FWD: Russian Scientists demonstrate Magnetic-Gravity Effects
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Papers can be made to look real scientific.  Anybody can copy a bunch of 
numbers out of a book.  They can connect themselves to clout and everybody 
goes wow.  Doesn't mean anything.

Especially since the foundation of it all is bunk.  All science based on 
curved space has been disposed of by the proof of flat space.  WE are 
returning to the cosmological constant, reports from the flat space teams.

Einstein was just a theory never proven.  He stated the angle measurement in 
the gravity telescope had to be 1.75 if his theory was to be correct.  
Stated everything hinged on that.  The measurement came out 1.64.  ( From 
the book, "The Universe and Dr. Einstein" by Lincoln Barnett. Page 97.  A 
five star book touted as the best book ever written on Einstein, endorsed by 
the old man himself)

Why folks do not know this I figure must part of a plot by authority to make 
folks think faster then light space travel was impossible, thus no flying 
saucers, thus they controlled the skies, NOT.  All instigated back in the 
50s and perpetuated to this day.  They pulled the wool over an ignorant 
public who will believe anything as long as it has some kind of clout.  Just 
like you guys always look for credibilty and call everything else crackpot.  
Might as well just park you head somewhere and continue on.  Why waste 
energy carrying it around?

Proof is the only thing that counts, not theory. Not Laws based on unproven 
theory, like the Laws of Thermodynamics.  Theory just tells us how to test 
for proof.

David


>From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: FWD: Russian Scientists demonstrate Magnetic-Gravity Effects
>Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Knuke, Hamdi
>	As I understand it, the LANL is just a depository for papers, no
>review, no investigation. Totally Lassisez-Faire. It is up to the reader
>to do his own discriminating analysis and critical judgement. In no way is
>it equivalent to publication.
>Let the buyer be aware!
>
>Hank
>
>On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
> > Hamdi writes:
> > >Hi Michael,
> > >
> > >It may be new, but is S. M. Godin or Sergey M. Godin a member of
> > >of the Institute for High Temperatures, Russian Academy of Sciences?
> > >Unfortunately, the main page of Institute for High Temperatures is 
>under
> > >construction and could not found a page about members rather than of
> > >Theoretical Department http://oivtran.iitp.ru/~theor/staff.htm.
> > >
> > >
> > >Beside, I think it is not a good practice that cseti.org or any 
>institution
> > >which is not directly related to physics literature give *unreferenced* 
>physics
> > >news on their pages. This is clearly prone to hoax.  I hope CSETI care
> > about it.
> >
> > Hi Hamdi,
> >
> > Yes, you are right.  I was more than a bit surprised to learn from Scott 
>at
> > how easy it was to get a preprint listed at LANL, as well.  It does 
>indicate
> > a need for some acknowledgement at the very least that a disclaimer or
> > explanation of sorts should be included with these papers stating the 
>level
> > to which the claim and even the existence of the claimant have been
> > verified.  The CSETI page isn't that large, and doesn't have nearly the
> > amount of material on it to verify, so they should be able to do this 
>more
> > readily.  It could just be that the oversight involves the conception 
>that
> > "everybody in the field knows Godin and his work", and that no effort 
>needs
> > to be made to address the issue of verification.  I am fairly new to 
>this
> > field myself, so I don't know all the established players at all.  We 
>all
> > appreciate your efforts to see if these people actually even exist.
> >
> > Knuke
> >
> > Michael T. Huffman
> > Huffman Technology Company
> > 1121 Dustin Drive
> > The Villages, Florida 32159
> > (352)259-1276
> > knuke LCIA.COM
> > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> >
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 17:18:34 2000
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Jed writes:
>That's nonense. Von Neumann never took credit for the ENIAC. His
>contribution came after ENIAC, in the design of the first stored program
>machines: "First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC" (1945). 

Not true, Jed.  It is a pretty well documented fact that Von Neumann toured
the ENIAC facility with his ever present entourage of science reporters,
briefly interviewed Ekhart and Mauchley as to their work, made some obvious
technical suggestions, and then was given credit for the project to the
amazement of nearly everyone involved with the actual project.  The project
was vital to the war effort, and Von Neumann was brought in to consult on
nearly every project at that time.  Ekhart and Mauchley subsequently gave
interviews complaining of the fact that they were denied their proper credit
in development of ENIAC, but Von Neumann was the famous prima dona who
attracted money, and had the ears of the large project goverment contractors.

He was very well known, popular with the public, and charismatic, as opposed
to Ekhart and Mauchley who were unknown technonerds, so he was more useful
to the big contractors as a public frontman, and consequently was given the
spotlight instead.  With him at the forefront, funding for large project
proposals had a much higher chance of being approved, no matter how
expensive they were.  Once a person with Von Neumann's talents, credibility
and stature reaches a certain level, there is a virtual tug-of-war that goes
on between business interests over them.  His arrogance was reinforced by
the people that made their living off of him.  It was not entirely his fault
that he got credit for more than he did, but at the same time, he did little
to set the record straight either.

"History" is too often written by people who have a vested interest, as you
should be well aware of by now.  It is part of the whole Fairy Tale or
Mythos Machine that serves the ones that know how to use it.  Liars,
moneygrubbers and largescale professional thieves.  You know, the worthless,
egomaniac creeps who want to run the world, and don't care how they have to
do it, as long as it revolves around them, and their legions of buttsucking
minions who hope to make a living perpetuating the untruths.  It is an
automatic, self organizing activity that resembles cancer, in my opinion.
It ends up killing the truth, and people along with it.  That is what
industrial journalism is mostly about though, I'm afraid. This sort of thing
happens everyday, and it shouldn't.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 18 17:43:08 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: HomePower Magazine
Resent-Message-ID: <"lnQNa1.0.AZ.LVTdv" mx1>
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Gnorts!

I used to get this magazine from a news shop just down the street from me in
Seattle, and I am just now happy to find that is has been on the net.  Dean
Miller posted it to the FreeNRG Group the other day, and it has a lot of
product specific information on commercially available solar, and wind power
installations that can get you "off the grid", and even earn you money from
the utilities.

www.homepower.com

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 05:32:02 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 18, 2000
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 18 Aug 00   Washington, DC

1. NULL HYPOTHESIS: DO ASTRONAUTS SUFFER MAGNETIC DEFICIENCY?  I
must tell you, I bought a pair of Florsheim MagneForce shoes this
week (WN 11 Aug 00).  I have not been sick since.  More on my new
shoes in a later issue.  Today, I want to share another Gary Null
quote from the free brochure Florsheim gave me (at $125 the shoes
were not free): "90-95% of health problems astronauts experienced
after early space flights were eliminated when magnets were put
in space suits and space capsules to counter the effects of
traveling outside the earth's magnetic field." That's remarkable,
since early flights never got beyond low-Earth orbit where the
field is essentially unchanged.  Nevertheless, we felt obliged to
ask NASA.  Answer: There has never been a magnet in a space suit.

2. BLACKLIGHT: SUIT AGAINST THE PATENT OFFICE FAILS.  BlackLight
Power's plans to go public with an estimated $1B stock offering
are presumably on hold.  You may recall that on 15 Feb BLP was
awarded a patent on a process for putting hydrogen atoms into a
"state below the ground state," shrinking them into teeny little
things called "hydrinos" (WN 18 Feb 00).  A second patent dealing
with hydrino chemistry was set for issuance two weeks later.  But
on 17 Feb the Patent Office withdrew the second patent, and
opened up the first for reexamination.  One patent official was
concerned that the BLP technology involves perpetual motion and
"cold fusion."  With its intellectual property somewhere in
patent purgatory, BlackLight filed suit in Federal Court against
the Commissioner of Patents.  Tuesday, Judge Emmet Sullivan ruled
the Patent Office action was "neither arbitrary nor capricious." 

3. INFINITE ENERGY: EEOC RULES THAT COLD FUSION IS A RELIGION.  
Paul LaViolette was terminated by the Patent Office on 9 Apr 99.
He had been recruited by patent examiner Tom Valone, who issued
an e-mail appeal for "all able-bodied free energy technologists"
to "infiltrate" the Patent Office (Science, V.284, p.1254, May
99).  It was Valone, you will recall, that organized the much-
traveled Conference on Future Energy (WN 30 Apr 99).  Claiming he
was fired because of his belief in cold fusion, LaViolette turned
to the Equal Employment Opportunities Office.  He argued that his
belief in cold fusion amounted to a religious belief.  Actually,
LaViolette believes in lots of stuff, like the B-2 bomber relies
on antigravity technology (WN 20 Nov 98).  Anyway, on 7 July the
EEOC ruled that cold fusion is indeed protected religious belief. 
This appears to confirm what many have been saying all along.

4. SPY HYSTERIA: FBI AGENT BACKS DOWN IN WEN HO LEE BAIL HEARING.
This is the third bail hearing for the Los Alamos scientist, who
has been jailed under harsh conditions since December.  An FBI
agent, who claimed under oath in December that Lee used deception
to gain access to the downloaded files, now acknowledges that his
testimony was in error.  The hearing is still going on.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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Hi folks,

Thought I'd send in a little on the cosmological constant.

Thomas, hope will have visited my site and will comment on evaporation and 
the increaded orbital radius of the Moon.  The Moon is the perfect example 
of Whirlpower.

I'm sure many of you have heard flat space has now been proven, which 
disposes of science theory based on a curved space.  Einstien's work was 
after all just unproven theory.  He stated his theory would only be correct 
if the measurment of the angle seen in the gravity telescope was 1.75 
seconds of an arc.  Stated everything hinged on that.  But the measurement 
came out to be 1.64.  (From the book, "The Universe and Dr. Einstein" by 
Lincoln Barnett.  Touted as the best book ever written on Einstein, endorsed 
by Einstein himself)

Why so much was has and is continued to placed, believed, and promoted as 
fact of Einstein's work is some pretty stange propoganda, but History shows 
us in Galileo's day, once the big shot make a stand they do not budge.  They 
cannot allow themselves to admit they were wrong once they take a stand.  
Even in the face of evidence.  So we have the facts it seems, but tradition 
is science is stronger than fact.  Exactly what science is not supposed to 
be about.

Highlighted from the article below:

*****
To account for this force, referred to as cosmic dark energy,
scientists recently have revived a concept called the cosmological constant. 
In their paper, the Princeton scientists describe this cosmic dark energy as 
"a vacuum energy assigned to empty space itself, a form of energy with 
negative pressure." Einstein first introduced the cosmological constant in 
1917, but later withdrew it, calling it the worst mistake of his life.
*****


This is probably one of the most important science announcements that
backs up the fluid space gravity paradigm.  This is key to Whirlpower as 
being not just a power we can tap on Earth in the whirlpool, it is the power 
driving the entire Universe.

One of the things about Whirlpower is that it has predicted space science 
discoveries before they happen.  In my debates going back a few years I 
noted how spinning objects would cause objects to orbit around them like 
whirlpools. I didn't know about frame dragging.  Never heard of it.  But 
after I described it in my debates it came out in the news in Luigi Stella's 
frame dragging discovery.  Then Vera Rubin's spiral galaxy and "mysterious 
dark matter" studies showed a %90 unaccounted for energy of motion.  I 
stated then and there is was not that we have a %90 heavier Universe, that 
is was the gravitational effect of frame dragging.  These scientists call it 
"a mysterious anti-gravity force.  I call it Whirlpower.  Then PBS announces 
the news about the vortex, "is not what we thought it was".

I know a few other ways to make Whirlpower if this concept of tapping the 
gravitational radiation of the "Fire of Kundalini" is valid.  It does seem 
as if the science as we know it is changing and scientists "are going to 
have to give up their most precious beliefs", as Vera Rubin says it in the 
ABC News Transcript I have posted at my website.

The "cosmological constant" Einstien dismissed in favor of his void curved 
space theory he was said to have worked all his later years on.  He knew his 
theory was disproven when the (so called) refraction of light did not meet 
his exact specfications of 1.75 seconds of an arc in the mearusrment the 
condensed light in the gravity telescope.  He died still trying to find the 
answer.

I can explain this.  And, like Permutter says, this is for people who like 
to "have fun considering the possibilities".  If you can't think or think 
you or science already knows it all then you will not think this is fun at 
all.  We are one hundred years down a dead end road of pollution thanks to 
know it all scientific dogma, when really the answer was right in front of 
our eyes the entire time.

So, what is the cosmological constant?  I think it relates to the infinite 
Mandlebrot equation, and some of the things Cedric, Karl, and Luke have said 
on the Whirlpower List.  Somehow when you add in series of ongoing equations 
you get infinite results.  And I think we live in an infinite flat fluid 
universe, not a finite curved void universe.  And it is the whirlpool nature 
of the universe science has yet to recognize.  But they is getting closer.

The Boomerang Report is just one of several more to come as this article 
said would happend.  I said it before any of these folks did, on the record, 
and will come out in the BBC Special, "The Passions of Science".  They're 
working on it.  :)

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


Date: May 27, 1999

Scientists Conclude Anti-Gravity Force Is Accelerating Expansion of the 
Universe

PRINCETON, N.J. -- After reviewing recent astronomical observations,
Princeton scientists have concluded that the evidence strongly
supports the existence of a mysterious anti-gravity force that is causing 
the expansion of the universe to accelerate.

They presented their argument in a review article that will be published in 
the May 28 edition of the journal Science. The researchers are Neta Bahcall 
and Jeremiah Ostriker of the Department of Astrophysics and PaulSteinhardt 
of the Department of Physics, in collaboration with Saul Perlmutter of 
Berkeley National Laboratory.

Scientists have known since the 1920s that the universe is expanding,
and they discovered in the last year that the expansion is likely to go on 
forever. In recent months, however, evidence has emerged to suggest that not 
only will the expansion continue, it will accelerate. The only way to 
account for such acceleration is the existence of a force to counteract the 
gravitational forces that would stabilize or shrink the universe.

The Princeton scientists have now bolstered that idea by reconciling
three independent sets of data and showing that the data have a surprising 
degree of agreement. The data, some of which was generated at Princeton, 
have been used to answer three questions: How much matter is in the 
universe? Is the expansion rate slowing down or speeding up? And, is the 
universe flat?

The Princeton scientists used a framework they call the "Cosmic Triangle",to 
relate the three questions and show for the first time how they merge into a 
unified picture of a universe that is flat, lightweight and expanding at an 
accelerating rate.

"It's a very exciting time because we are starting to reveal the
status of the universe and it tells us something very unexpected," says 
Bahcall.  It is the acceleration idea that is most surprising, she says. 
Bahcall cautions, however, that these conjectures must be confirmed by 
further improvements in the data, which are expected to come from a variety 
of sources over the next few years.

The expansion of the universe can be described in terms of a car
coasting along a road as a result of a big push (the Big Bang). The mass of 
the universe, with the gravitational pull it exerts, is analogous to the 
friction and wind resistance that slow the car. In this analogy, there is
so little resistance (gravitational tug) that the car never stops. The
only way it could accelerate is if it were rolling downhill or if someone 
were depressing the gas pedal. The new force in the universe is like the 
downhill tug or an engine pushing the car.

"The evidence is now getting stronger that there really is a force in
the universe that competes with gravity and causes repulsion instead of 
attraction," says Ostriker.

To account for this force, referred to as cosmic dark energy,
scientists recently have revived a concept called the cosmological constant. 
In their paper, the Princeton scientists describe this cosmic dark energy as 
"a vacuum energy assigned to empty space itself, a form of energy with 
negative pressure." Einstein first introduced the cosmological constant in 
1917, but later withdrew it, calling it the worst mistake of his life.

Understanding the source and nature of this force poses deep new
problems for physicists. "It's of very profound physical significance," says 
Ostriker.

The work to explain the source of this force already has begun.
Steinhardt, a co-author, recently introduced a possible new force called 
quintessence, which may account for the dark energy.

Another implication of this new understanding of the universe is that
it gives scientists a radically new picture of the future of the
universe. It appears that the dark energy could eventually overwhelm the 
gravitational forces of matter. The density of matter in the universe would 
then become insignificant, so that the universe would approach an 
essentially uniform force field of dark energy. The researchers conclude 
that understanding dark energy, and hence the future of the universe, will 
be "one of the grand challenges of the millennium to come."

Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

May 25, 1999

Dark Energy Fills The Cosmos

BERKELEY, CA -- In an article titled "The Cosmic Triangle: Revealing
the State of the Universe," which appears in the May 28, 1999, issue of the 
journal Science, a group of cosmologists and physicists from Princeton found 
in them. These measurements suggest that the expansion of the universe is 
accelerating.

Curvature is estimated from measurements of the anisotropy (temperature 
fluctuation) of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB), a remnant 
of the Big Bang. Although uncertainty is large, current results suggest a 
flat universe.

The Cosmic Triangle eliminates some popular models, such as a high-density 
universe that is slowing down and will eventually recollapse, as well as a 
nearly empty universe with no dark energy and low mass. While the evidence 
from galactic clusters shows that mass density is low, supernova evidence 
for acceleration shows that dark energy must be abundant.

"These two legs of the Cosmic Triangle agree with the evidence from
the CMB that the universe is flat," Perlmutter says, adding that "this is a 
remarkable agreement for these early days of empirical cosmology."

Thus the Cosmic Triangle suggests that the standard inflationary
scenario is on the right track: one of its key predictions is a flat 
universe.

Various types of dark energy have been proposed, including a cosmic
field associated with inflation; a different, low-energy field dubbed
"quintessence"; and the cosmological constant, or vacuum energy of
empty space. Unlike Einstein's famous fudge factor, the cosmological
constant in its present incarnation doesn't delicately (and artificially) 
balance gravity in order to maintain a static universe; instead, it has 
"negative pressure" that causes expansion to accelerate.

"The term Cosmic Triangle sounds kind of New Agey," says Perlmutter,
"but it's a good way to portray the quantities in these comparisons, and 
it's fun for people who like to plot the possibilities" -- an evolving task 
that, among other choices, will require finding an answer to "the most 
provocative and profound" issue of all, the nature of cosmic dark energy.

The Berkeley Lab is a U.S. Department of Energy national laboratory
located in Berkeley, California. It conducts unclassified scientific 
research andis managed by the University of California. Visit our website at 
http://www.lbl.gov .


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 07:39:43 2000
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Hi All,

The following may be of interest to some
members of the list.

Jack Smith

---------------------------

August 2000; Nature 406, 695 - 699 (2000);
By PAUL N. PEARSON AND MARTIN R. PALMER

Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations over the past
60 million years

Knowledge of the evolution of atmospheric carbon dioxide
concentrations throughout the Earth's history is important
for a reconstruction of the links between climate and
radiative forcing of the Earth's surface temperatures.

Although atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations in
the early Cenozoic era (about 60 Myr ago) are widely
believed to have been higher than at present, there is
disagreement regarding the exact carbon dioxide levels,
the timing of the decline and the mechanisms that are
most important for the control of CO2 concentrations over
geological timescales.

Here we use the boron-isotope ratios of ancient planktonic
foraminifer shells to estimate the pH of surface-layer sea
water throughout the past 60 million years, which can be
used to reconstruct atmospheric CO2 concentrations.

We estimate CO2 concentrations of more than 2,000
p.p.m. for the late Palaeocene and earliest Eocene periods
(from about 60 to 52 Myr ago), and find an erratic decline
between 55 and 40 Myr ago that may have been caused by
reduced CO2 outgassing from ocean ridges, volcanoes and
metamorphic belts and increased carbon burial.

Since the early Miocene (about 24 Myr ago), atmospheric CO2
concentrations appear to have remained below 500 p.p.m. and
were more stable than before, although transient intervals
of CO2 reduction may have occurred during periods of rapid
cooling approximately 15 and 3 Myr ago.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 08:56:19 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Not true, Jed.  It is a pretty well documented fact that Von Neumann toured
>the ENIAC facility with his ever present entourage of science reporters,
>briefly interviewed Ekhart and Mauchley as to their work, made some obvious
>technical suggestions, and then was given credit for the project to the
>amazement of nearly everyone involved with the actual project.

Given credit by who? The newspapers? He himself did not take credit, and
none of the books about history of computers that I have read give him
credit. I have read many of von Neumann's original papers about computers,
which are very well written. The first ones pertain to the generation after
ENIAC. Any technically competant person reading original sources will see
that he did not and could not "take credit" for ENIAC.


  The project
>was vital to the war effort, and Von Neumann was brought in to consult on
>nearly every project at that time.

He did not hear about ENIAC until it was almost finished. I read the
memoirs of the man who first told him about it, on a railroad station
platform in Philadelphia, as it happens.


>He was very well known, popular with the public, and charismatic, as opposed
>to Ekhart and Mauchley who were unknown technonerds, so he was more useful
>to the big contractors as a public frontman, and consequently was given the
>spotlight instead.  With him at the forefront, funding for large project
>proposals had a much higher chance of being approved, no matter how
>expensive they were.

ENIAC was paid for before he heard about it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 09:02:40 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>Completion [of the BLP project] seems to mean commercialization here.

Not to me. "Completion" means acceptance by the general public, and
wide-ranging interest by industry. In other words, it means a prototype
product launch similar to the introduction of the transistor in 1952, the
phonograph in 1878, HTSC in 1988, or cloned sheep a few years ago. The
product may require 10 or 20 years of additional development after the
introduction before it becomes commercially practical, but everyone
acknowledges it is real and probably important.

Mills could have launched the BLP products in 1994. By now we would have
prototype power plants and automobiles, and he would have billions in capital.


>He's made tremendous 
>progress since he first surfaced in 1991.

If he had promoted the product in 1994 the way any sane businessman would,
we would make more progress every month than he has made in the last nine
years. That is what happened with telephones, the airplane, transistors and
most other major complex innovations.

- Jed

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:26:58 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:54:15 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>>Not true, Jed.  It is a pretty well documented fact that Von Neumann toured
>>the ENIAC facility with his ever present entourage of science reporters,
>>briefly interviewed Ekhart and Mauchley as to their work, made some obvious
>>technical suggestions, and then was given credit for the project to the
>>amazement of nearly everyone involved with the actual project.
>
>Given credit by who? The newspapers? He himself did not take credit, and
>none of the books about history of computers that I have read give him
>credit. I have read many of von Neumann's original papers about computers,
>which are very well written. The first ones pertain to the generation after
>ENIAC. Any technically competant person reading original sources will see
>that he did not and could not "take credit" for ENIAC.

Most people seem to think the ENIAC was the first computer.  There was
one built almost 10 years earlier -- and used a capacitive memory
system that needed refreshing, similar to many of today's RAM designs.

Brief description, with links, is at:
http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/weekly/aa050898.htm?iam=mt&terms=%2B%22iowa+state%22+%2Bcomputer


-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Jed writes:
>Given credit by who? The newspapers? He himself did not take credit, and
>none of the books about history of computers that I have read give him
>credit. I have read many of von Neumann's original papers about computers,
>which are very well written. The first ones pertain to the generation after
>ENIAC. Any technically competant person reading original sources will see
>that he did not and could not "take credit" for ENIAC.

Like I said before, this is fairly well documented.  I read about it in 2
books on the history of computing, and there was a PBS special that dealt
with it as well.  Von Neumann was brought in to look at the ENIAC project in
the latest stages.  He was accompanied by some government, military people
and news reporters.  He had his photo taken next to the ENIAC, and the story
went out to the world that it was called The Von Neumann Thinking Machine.
This was before the word "computer" was used by the public.  After the word
"computer" became more widely accepted, Von Neumann was promoted as The
Father of Computing.  Both statements were fabrications made by the people
that lived off of his projects.

>  The project
>>was vital to the war effort, and Von Neumann was brought in to consult on
>>nearly every project at that time.
>
>He did not hear about ENIAC until it was almost finished. I read the
>memoirs of the man who first told him about it, on a railroad station
>platform in Philadelphia, as it happens.

That is what I've been saying all along.  What is your point?

>>He was very well known, popular with the public, and charismatic, as opposed
>>to Ekhart and Mauchley who were unknown technonerds, so he was more useful
>>to the big contractors as a public frontman, and consequently was given the
>>spotlight instead.  With him at the forefront, funding for large project
>>proposals had a much higher chance of being approved, no matter how
>>expensive they were.
>
>ENIAC was paid for before he heard about it.

Again, what is your point?  That is what I've been saying  As for the
funding for projects, Von Neumann was subsequently used by his symbiotic
entourage to design the largest behemouth of a computing device that the
world had ever seen.  That was the whole point of the visit to the ENIAC
facility in the first place, namely, to give Von Neumann the credit for
birthing the computer.  He took over the lion's share of public money spent
on computing thereafter, and his subsequent project still stands as one of
the largest and dumbest computing devices if you go by square footage.  The
project was hideously expensive, had enormous technical hurdles to overcome,
and didn't really provide that much of an advancement in terms of the
quality or quantity of the output.

Its largeness did not make it any better, instead it accounted for many of
the problems.  It did however make it much more profitable for his
promoters, deal brokers, contractors, et. alia.., because of all the cost
overruns, etc. to correct all of Von Neumann's design errors and stupid
ideas.  The bigger, more grandiose the vision, and the more magnificent the
promise and The Dream, the bigger the the project size and accompanying
avoidable errors, hence the bigger the profits for those who make it.  That
is why his parasitic supporters made sure that Van Neumann's arrogance
always matched that of a swaggering bullfighter, and that no opposition to
his ideas would ever be allowed to surface, nor was any credit to given to
the people who actually did the original work. This would dilute the halo
that they had created around their star - Von Neumann. This sort of thing
happens all the time, and is just one of the lower facets of the influence
peddling for public money game.  A more recent example of this is the
disgusting way that Gore used Hawking in his campaign bid for president.

I'm really surprised that you don't know all of this, since you have been
involved with this particular industry for so long.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 13:38:50 2000
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Dean writes:
>Most people seem to think the ENIAC was the first computer.  There was
>one built almost 10 years earlier -- and used a capacitive memory
>system that needed refreshing, similar to many of today's RAM designs.
>
>Brief description, with links, is at:
>http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/weekly/aa050898.htm?ia
m=mt&terms=%2B%22iowa+state%22+%2Bcomputer

The history of computing, and in particular what was the first computer, is
an interesting subject.  Some people contend that computing actually started
in the textile industry around the time of the Civil War.  A weaving machine
was developed that could be given instructions that were changable so that
different patterns could be machine woven into a fabric by the same machine.
The instructions consisted of rectangular blocks of wood that had holes
punched into them that the weaving machine would use to decide what
movements to make.  These blocks of wood were clumsily tied together and
wound onto a spindle cine style, and fed into the weaving machine by an
operator using a crank.

This idea was expanded and used by the piano manufacturers to design the
Player Pianos.  The player pianos used a scroll of heavy paper with holes
punched into it that instructed the piano's machinery to play the right
notes.  Change the scroll, and you change the tune, but the piano stayed the
same, as opposed to its predecessor, the Music Box.  If you wanted to hear a
new tune, you had to buy a whole new box.  This is when the term "program"
came to be first used.  Computers picked up the Punch Tape or Card concept
from player pianos and weaving machines.

If you think about it, that is all a modern day computer is, really, just a
machine that has input and output, and the output is determined by a set of
instructions that are performed by a dumb machine.  Unfortunately, much of
society acts in this same fashion as well, thanks to the lunacy of social
engineering.  Society has become a dumb machine.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 14:16:46 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:15:06 EDT
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In a message dated 08/18/2000 5:07:48 AM, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:

<< Beside, I think it is not a good practice that cseti.org or any institution
which is not directly related to physics literature give *unreferenced* 
physics
news on their pages. This is clearly prone to hoax.  I hope CSETI care about 
it. >>

You said it, Hamdi, you're absolutely right.

Tom Stolper

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Subject: Re: BLP loses appeal on patent
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Some layman's comments (consult your lawyer before doing anything):

1)  CORRECTION:  the story in INFINITE ENERGY No. 32 did NOT say that BLP had 
asked the Court to order the Patent Office not to withdraw the broad energy 
patent issued on February 15, 2000 (the so-called '935 patent).  The story 
just said that BLP had contended in its suit that the Patent Office was going 
to open the '935 patent for reexamination.

2)  The Patent Office may not be able to reexamine the broad energy patent 
that has already been issued (the '935 patent).  The Court noted in passing, 
in footnote 4 to its opinion, that in order to reexamine a patent that has 
already been issued, the Patent Office must adduce new grounds, i.e., grounds 
that haven't already been considered during the process of issuance.  

3)  The Patent Office is refusing to issue the patents in dispute in this 
case on the grounds that Mills' theory of the hydrogen atom, which underlies 
the patent applications, violates known physical and chemical laws.  But that 
theory underlies the issued '935 energy patent as well and was already 
considered during the process of issuance, so the Patent Office may have to 
think of something else in order to reexamine the '935 energy patent.

4)  The Court pointed out (pp. 27-28 of the opinion) that BLP still has other 
remedies at its disposal in arguing with the Patent Office and that the 
Patent Office's actions with respect to the applications in dispute are far 
from a final determination of unpatentability.

5)  The Court ruled in favor of the Patent Office, but added some final words 
at the end of the opinion, in footnote 10:  

<<This Court is troubled by several steps in the PTO's
process, however. Defendant claims that the technology of the
'294 application contravenes fundamental laws of chemistry and
physics, yet the application was approved by a patent
examiner, never reviewed by a supervisor, and would have
issued as a patent but for the PTO's eleventh hour withdrawal.
Defendant conceded at the May 22, 2000 hearing that the '294
application was withdrawn just days before the issuance date
without the benefit of any PTO employee's re-evaluating the
file. Also, the February 17 Notice, released twelve days
before the scheduled issue date, gave no reason for the
withdrawal besides a cryptic citation to 37 C.F.R. §
1.313(b)(3). At the May 22, 2000 hearing, defendant
represented that these are common occurrences, because of the
enormous number of patent applications that need to be
addressed each year, and the "tremendous pressure" placed on
patent examiners to produce work. See May 22, 2000 Hr'g Tr.
at 48. Defendant may be well-advised to examine its patent
issuance process so that their normal operations are not
compromised by such seemingly suspicious procedures.>>

Tom Stolper

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In a message dated 08/18/2000 10:48:02 AM, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com 
writes:

<< They will go on the way CETI did
with this same brain-dead business strategy, pissing away other people's
money and wasting time, until the money is gone and opportunities are lost
forever.>>

The differences between BLP and CETI are many, large, and decisive; and Mills 
keeps creating new opportunities.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 16:13:58 2000
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Hi All,
   I have tonight to try to give you all something that I find rather
interesting. If I am right it could change some things. If I am wrong
then I will just be wasting your time. I will try to be as brief as
possible so as not to waste too much disk space.
   I have done preliminary stuff with it and it does work. "Free Energy"
anyone?
MJ
P.S.: Be back in a few minutes.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 21:16:20 2000
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--------------64CEE8A8CE4B0F1CD43E32ED
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hi All,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I thought I would start with a definition of free energy.
To me that means being able to get more energy out of a system than what
you have to put into it. I have seen people really wrestle with that concept.
For example, what about a rock rolling down a hill? Or how about a stick
of dynamite? Or maybe a nuclear explosion/reactor? Do you get more energy
out of all of those things than what you put into them? Yes, no doubt about
it. Are any of these things either "overunity" or "Free Energy"? No. Very
simple. No. No matter how you slice them they are not. In all of these
cases, MORE potential energy exists than what you extract from them. Also
you can only get then to go in one direction. Look at the rock for example,
it gives you a lot of power going down the hill but it is going to take
you even more power to get it back up to the top of the hill again to repeat
your cycle. Understand?
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I got into this whole thing because I thought it would
be fun to find a way to use the H2 in water as a fuel. In my brief involvement
I have seen many ideas advanced (and gadgets sold) which purported to provide
free energy but have yet to see any of them get consistently positive reviews
or independent confirmation of their validity. So it remains a challenge.
I thought it would be nice to give you all a real, simple free energy device
that you could experiment with and that wouldn't be too pricey to build
or too complex (or dangerous) for the average 12 year old to understand.
So that is what I am going to try to do tonight.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The device, of course, involves water (enki=lord of the
waters). If you are interested I hope you enjoy it. If not, delete it.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; First I would like to turn your attention to a simple
experiment which I am sure that you are all familiar with. Take a drinking
glass and fill it most of the way with water. Next invert it into a shallow
pan of water. What happens? The water hangs suspended inside the glass,
defying gravity.
<br><img SRC="cid:part1.399F5BD2.C911EFE6 csrlink.net" height=190 width=191>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Want anti-gravity in your home, there it is. Why does
the water hang inside the glass like that? Because if it fell it would
cause the air above it to become so low in pressure that it would create
a vacuum. So the air, in it's attempt to stay at standard pressure has
enough attractive force to hold the water in place against the force of
gravity. You have done the work once and created a self perpetuating system
in which the water will stay in that place indefinitely haven't you? If
nothing changes in the system it would last indefinitely, but eventually
enough water would evaporate from the pan so that air could be drawn up
into the glass and the water would fall. Still though do you see the beauty
of this? How much energy is required to hold a certain quantity of water
in the air like that? Yet here it is, free, for a one time investment.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, so that is a static system, sort of the the rock on
the top of the hill. You can't get any useful energy out of it without
having something moving to do the work right? And if you drop the water
to get what energy you can out of it you have losses but can get something.
Unfortunately you also have to expend more energy to get the water back
up into the glass again if you want to continue the cycle with it right?
Undoubtedly this system, as depicted above, can't generate any more power
than what you put into it and is good for a conversation piece at best.
Or is it?
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What if you tried to get some energy out of it? What would
be the best way to do it? I like a water wheel myself. Consider the state
of the water within the glass. It's water. It's not thinned out like the
air above it. I did this experiment and put a small tube into the side
of the glass just below the surface of the water near the top of the glass.
It isn't hard at all to get water to flow out of that tube. It is at whatever
height you have drawn it to so it doesn't have to be pumped "up" to the
outlet. It is already there. So it requires much less effort to pump water,
from just below the surface, straight OUT of a container than it does to
pump water UP from a depth doesn't it? The only drawback is that you would
have to use a pump which didn't let air back into the container while you
were pumping it out. As you pump it out new water circulates into the container
from the pan in the bottom.
<br><img SRC="cid:part2.399F5BD2.C911EFE6 csrlink.net" height=187 width=245>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What if you made the tank 30' tall? What if you kept the
water level in it at 25'? Then had a 4' pool in the pan at the bottom?
<br>As you pumped the water out of the TOP of the tank it could fall 20'
over a water wheel which is connected to a generator. A 20' water wheel
can generate a LOT of power, depending on the water flow and the size of
the generator which is attached to it. After all, what is a water wheel
but a set of levers? Remember you aren't pumping the water UP 20' either.
The air is holding it there for you already, you are only supplying the
energy to pump it OUT at the desired rate. And again, once the water turns
the wheel it falls back into the pan where it eventually is drawn into
the bottom of the container again..... Maybe this is how Tesla figured
to turn a water wheel with water the wheel pumped to it's top. So there,
maybe you are starting to understand. This isn't the free energy device
I was talking about, that is still to come. This is a started which may
be able to do the job on it's own. The next ones are even better. keep
reading.
<br>MJ</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 21:16:38 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:09:33 -0400
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: BLP loses appeal on patent
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Hi Tom,

What exactly was Zimmerman's role in all this?  He evidently made some
comment to which I didn't get the full context.  This is an interesting turn
of events, I must say, and if there were any evidence of tampering with the
decision of the USPTO by an outsider, especially one connected with the
State Department, the interest level goes way up.

Another note, I just learned that Dick Cheney, the vice presidential
candidate, and former Defense Secretary was at one time CEO of Halliburton.
Is it any wonder that we can't seem to get off of oil and nuke power?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 19 23:11:45 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:16:59 -0400
From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hi Again,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, simple right? I built the last thing (sans pump and
generator)and was surprised how little energy was required to suck water
out of the top level of the water (actual sucking here). I didn't have
money for a pump or generator to take the test all the way to completion
but I believe it is pretty sound as described and you could duplicate it
for under $2 or complete it for under $25 (working scale model). Now let's
get on to bigger and better things.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; First I want to show you a new type of container for the
water. It is based on the same principles as the previous example but has
added design benefits which will allow much more to be accomplished:
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<img SRC="cid:part1.399F77DA.E8DE1F46 csrlink.net" height=123 width=117>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What you see is, again, a container. In the container
is water and air. At the bottom of the container is an outlet with a valve
on it. At the top of the container is an inlet. The dimensions of the container
can be whatever you want (up to the 30' height limit for pumping water
up by suction). For my experimental models I used Rubbermaid storage containers
which are about 8" high and 6" square on the sides. I caulked the inside
of the lid to assure an airtight seal. One very important note: In all
of these designs NO AIR CAN LEAK IN FROM THE OUTSIDE. For my inlet and
outlet I used aquarium tubing. The valve is a brass aquarium air line regulating
valve. Be sure to caulk really well around the place where the tubing goes
into the container. Remember: NO AIR LEAKS.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; So, ok, if the valve at the bottom of the tank is closed,
what happens? Nothing. What happens if you open the valve? One of two things.
If the inlet at the top is open then air is drawn into the container from
there and gravity pulls the water out the valve in the bottom. If the inlet
at the top is blocked then water flows out of the valve and air is sucked
back into the valve at the same time to equalize the air pressure. Are
we ok with this so far? Good. I built three of these containers. I then
hooked them together like this:
<br><img SRC="cid:part2.399F77DA.E8DE1F46 csrlink.net" height=115 width=448>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp; Hmmmmm. Looks sort of interesting, no? What does it do?
Good question. Well, if you put a pump on the valve of the last container
(I used a manual pump of the sort that you use to suck kerosene out of
a can [$2 at a hardware store]) and caulk it real well, and then pump it,
it sucks water out of that container. As the water level falls the air
above it becomes thinner. Remember from the example of the inverted cup
that air doesn't like this situation. It will try to draw in SOMETHING
to replace the exiting water (notice NO water can enter at the pump). Since
it can't suck air back in through the pump it does the next best thing
and sucks the air out of the INLET tube. As the air is sucked out of the
inlet tube the water from container number is drawn into the tube and eventually
to the top of the tube where it spills into the first container. This is
a pump. A natural one that depends on the action of the mechanical pump
yes but this container is a pump.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; As the suction from canister number one sucks the water
out of canister number two the water level in that canister falls. When
it does it sucks the air out of the tube from canister three and soon the
water is flowing from three to two as well as from two to one. All of the
energy that is being put INTO the system is the energy to pump water OUT
of canister number one. Air is supplying the energy to lift and pump the
water within the system. As long as the pump keeps pumping the air in the
first container will remain diminished and keep sucking water in (as will
two and three). The water will move between the canisters at the same rate
that it is exiting the pump. So now the pump that is rated at say, 4 gallons
per minute, is actually moving 4 gallons&nbsp; a minute through 3 openings
for a total 12 gallons per minute.
<br>next installment coming soon.
<br>Enki
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 00:33:05 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:37:51 -0400
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
HI Again,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, so, where were we? Oh yes, I remember, I was giving
you the world's first true overunity device (I think).
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I only put three containers on the system but the pump
seemed to have no trouble with it so I'm not sure there is a limit to the
number it could carry. Probably this is tied to the capacity of the pump.
Remember that we are pumping water OUT&nbsp; from the BOTTOM of container
number one and so, as long as the air has somewhere else (the inlet) to
suck something in from, gravity is helping us move the water out! There
is very little effort required by the pump to do this.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; My next step was to add a holding tank so that I could
connect container three to that as it's intake supply and as the catch
basin for the pumps outlet:
<br><img SRC="cid:part1.399F8ACF.2633B4F csrlink.net" height=213 width=621>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; So now we have a little complete cycle from intake to
outlet. All in one neat, continuous loop. I thought I might be onto something
here. So far we have natural forces helping us allow one pump to do the
work of three, four if you count sucking water up out of the basin. By
the way the basin was also a Rubbermaid storage container. I like them
because they are sturdy plastic and they are transparent. Also please view
the holding basin as being in front of the containers and not below it.
The above diagram lacks perspective to make it easier to see.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The next step was to see how we could generate power with
this device. Hopefully we can make enough to run our one pump:
<br><img SRC="cid:part2.399F8ACF.2633B4F csrlink.net" height=219 width=649>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp; As you can see it would be possible to run a total of 4
water wheel/generator combinations with this setup. Add more canisters,
add equally more wheel/generators. Are we at overunity yet? The water was
flowing into the containers anyway and the weight of the falling water
turns the wheels so they put zero additional stress on the system. But
wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an electrical pump instead
of the hand powered one.
<br>MJ
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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<html>
Hi All,
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I thought I would start with a definition of free energy.
To me that means being able to get more energy out of a system than
<br>what you have to put into it. I have seen people really wrestle with
that concept. For example, what about a rock rolling down
<br>a hill? Or how about a stick of dynamite? Or maybe a nuclear explosion/reactor?
Do you get more energy out of all of those
<br>things than what you put into them? Yes, no doubt about it. Are any
of these things either "overunity" or "Free Energy"? No.
<br>Very simple. No. No matter how you slice them they are not. In all
of these cases, MORE potential energy exists than what
<br>you extract from them. Also you can only get then to go in one direction.
Look at the rock for example, it gives you a lot of
<br>power going down the hill but it is going to take you even more power
to get it back up to the top of the hill again to repeat
<br>your cycle. Understand?
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I got into this whole thing because I thought it would
be fun to find a way to use the H2 in water as a fuel. In my brief
<br>involvement I have seen many ideas advanced (and gadgets sold) which
purported to provide free energy but have yet to see
<br>any of them get consistently positive reviews or independent confirmation
of their validity. So it remains a challenge. I thought it
<br>would be nice to give you all a real, simple free energy device that
you could experiment with and that wouldn't be too pricey
<br>to build or too complex (or dangerous) for the average 12 year old
to understand. So that is what I am going to try to do
<br>tonight.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The device, of course, involves water (enki=lord of the
waters). If you are interested I hope you enjoy it. If not, delete it.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; First I would like to turn your attention to a simple
experiment which I am sure that you are all familiar with. Take a drinking
<br>glass and fill it most of the way with water. Next invert it into a
shallow pan of water. What happens? The water hangs
<br>suspended inside the glass, defying gravity.
<br><img SRC="cid:part1.399F8C15.81B11527 csrlink.net" height=190 width=191>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Want anti-gravity in your home, there it is. Why does
the water hang inside the glass like that? Because if it fell it would
cause
<br>the air above it to become so low in pressure that it would create
a vacuum. So the air, in it's attempt to stay at standard
<br>pressure has enough attractive force to hold the water in place against
the force of gravity. You have done the work once and
<br>created a self perpetuating system in which the water will stay in
that place indefinitely haven't you? If nothing changes in the
<br>system it would last indefinitely, but eventually enough water would
evaporate from the pan so that air could be drawn up into
<br>the glass and the water would fall. Still though do you see the beauty
of this? How much energy is required to hold a certain
<br>quantity of water in the air like that? Yet here it is, free, for a
one time investment.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, so that is a static system, sort of the the rock on
the top of the hill. You can't get any useful energy out of it without
<br>having something moving to do the work right? And if you drop the water
to get what energy you can out of it you have losses
<br>but can get something. Unfortunately you also have to expend more energy
to get the water back up into the glass again if you
<br>want to continue the cycle with it right? Undoubtedly this system,
as depicted above, can't generate any more power than what
<br>you put into it and is good for a conversation piece at best. Or is
it?
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What if you tried to get some energy out of it? What would
be the best way to do it? I like a water wheel myself. Consider
<br>the state of the water within the glass. It's water. It's not thinned
out like the air above it. I did this experiment and put a small
<br>tube into the side of the glass just below the surface of the water
near the top of the glass. It isn't hard at all to get water to flow
<br>out of that tube. It is at whatever height you have drawn it to so
it doesn't have to be pumped "up" to the outlet. It is already
<br>there. So it requires much less effort to pump water, from just below
the surface, straight OUT of a container than it does to
<br>pump water UP from a depth doesn't it? The only drawback is that you
would have to use a pump which didn't let air back
<br>into the container while you were pumping it out. As you pump it out
new water circulates into the container from the pan in the
<br>bottom.
<br><img SRC="cid:part2.399F8C15.81B11527 csrlink.net" height=123 width=117>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What if you made the tank 30' tall? What if you kept the
water level in it at 25'? Then had a 4' pool in the pan at the bottom?
<br>As you pumped the water out of the TOP of the tank it could fall 20'
over a water wheel which is connected to a generator. A
<br>20' water wheel can generate a LOT of power, depending on the water
flow and the size of the generator which is attached to
<br>it. After all, what is a water wheel but a set of levers? Remember
you aren't pumping the water UP 20' either. The air is holding
<br>it there for you already, you are only supplying the energy to pump
it OUT at the desired rate. And again, once the water turns
<br>the wheel it falls back into the pan where it eventually is drawn into
the bottom of the container again..... Maybe this is how
<br>Tesla figured to turn a water wheel with water the wheel pumped to
it's top. So there, maybe you are starting to understand.
<br>This isn't the free energy device I was talking about, that is still
to come. This is a started which may be able to do the job on
<br>it's own. The next ones are even better. keep reading.
<br>MJ</html>

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ok,ok, I put all three installments up on my website. Go here to see
them:
http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/myideas.html
The third one is the one I actually made anyway. Won't get to see the
end one now though, I am tired. Lucky you.
mj

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Free Energy 1
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>Hi All,
>   I thought I would start with a definition of free energy. To me that
>means being able to get more energy out of a system than what you have to
>put into it. I have seen people really wrestle with that concept. For
>example, what about a rock rolling down a hill? Or how about a stick of
>dynamite? Or maybe a nuclear explosion/reactor? Do you get more energy out
>of all of those things than what you put into them? Yes, no doubt about
>it. Are any of these things either "overunity" or "Free Energy"? No. Very
>simple. No. No matter how you slice them they are not. In all of these
>cases, MORE potential energy exists than what you extract from them. Also
>you can only get then to go in one direction. Look at the rock for
>example, it gives you a lot of power going down the hill but it is going
>to take you even more power to get it back up to the top of the hill again
>to repeat your cycle. Understand?
>   I got into this whole thing because I thought it would be fun to find a
>way to use the H2 in water as a fuel. In my brief involvement I have seen
>many ideas advanced (and gadgets sold) which purported to provide free
>energy but have yet to see any of them get consistently positive reviews
>or independent confirmation of their validity. So it remains a challenge.
>I thought it would be nice to give you all a real, simple free energy
>device that you could experiment with and that wouldn't be too pricey to
>build or too complex (or dangerous) for the average 12 year old to
>understand. So that is what I am going to try to do tonight.
>   The device, of course, involves water (enki=lord of the waters). If you
>are interested I hope you enjoy it. If not, delete it.
>   First I would like to turn your attention to a simple experiment which
>I am sure that you are all familiar with. Take a drinking glass and fill
>it most of the way with water. Next invert it into a shallow pan of water.
>What happens? The water hangs suspended inside the glass, defying gravity.
>
>   Want anti-gravity in your home, there it is. Why does the water hang
>inside the glass like that? Because if it fell it would cause the air
>above it to become so low in pressure that it would create a vacuum. So
>the air, in it's attempt to stay at standard pressure has enough
>attractive force to hold the water in place against the force of gravity.
>You have done the work once and created a self perpetuating system in
>which the water will stay in that place indefinitely haven't you? If
>nothing changes in the system it would last indefinitely, but eventually
>enough water would evaporate from the pan so that air could be drawn up
>into the glass and the water would fall. Still though do you see the
>beauty of this? How much energy is required to hold a certain quantity of
>water in the air like that? Yet here it is, free, for a one time
>investment.
>   Ok, so that is a static system, sort of the the rock on the top of the
>hill. You can't get any useful energy out of it without having something
>moving to do the work right? And if you drop the water to get what energy
>you can out of it you have losses but can get something. Unfortunately you
>also have to expend more energy to get the water back up into the glass
>again if you want to continue the cycle with it right? Undoubtedly this
>system, as depicted above, can't generate any more power than what you put
>into it and is good for a conversation piece at best. Or is it?
>   What if you tried to get some energy out of it? What would be the best
>way to do it? I like a water wheel myself. Consider the state of the water
>within the glass. It's water. It's not thinned out like the air above it.
>I did this experiment and put a small tube into the side of the glass just
>below the surface of the water near the top of the glass. It isn't hard at
>all to get water to flow out of that tube. It is at whatever height you
>have drawn it to so it doesn't have to be pumped "up" to the outlet. It is
>already there. So it requires much less effort to pump water, from just
>below the surface, straight OUT of a container than it does to pump water
>UP from a depth doesn't it? The only drawback is that you would have to
>use a pump which didn't let air back into the container while you were
>pumping it out. As you pump it out new water circulates into the container
>from the pan in the bottom.
>
>   What if you made the tank 30' tall? What if you kept the water level in
>it at 25'? Then had a 4' pool in the pan at the bottom?
>As you pumped the water out of the TOP of the tank it could fall 20' over
>a water wheel which is connected to a generator. A 20' water wheel can
>generate a LOT of power, depending on the water flow and the size of the
>generator which is attached to it. After all, what is a water wheel but a
>set of levers? Remember you aren't pumping the water UP 20' either. The
>air is holding it there for you already, you are only supplying the energy
>to pump it OUT at the desired rate. And again, once the water turns the
>wheel it falls back into the pan where it eventually is drawn into the
>bottom of the container again..... Maybe this is how Tesla figured to turn
>a water wheel with water the wheel pumped to it's top. So there, maybe you
>are starting to understand.


***{Michael, the above is just a variant of the same fallacy you put forth
earlier, when you were trying to pull water to unlimited heights using a
suction pump. What you didn't grasp then, and still do not grasp now, is
that the pressure inside a column of water that has been pulled up by
suction, is *less* than atmospheric pressure. That means when you open a
hole between the inside and the outside, water will not flow out, to turn
your water wheel; instead, air will be sucked in, and the column of water
will fall back to the level of the fluid in the pan.

As I said in my earlier post to you, the pressure at the inlet of a suction
pump is equal to atmospheric pressure minus the head pressure of the column
of water that you have pulled up, and, when that pressure drops to the
vapor pressure of water at 20 deg. C--about 18 mbar if memory serves--the
water begins to boil, and the pump thereafter sucks water vapor instead of
water. The same idea permits you to calculate the pressure within the
column at any point: simply subtract the head pressure exerted by a column
of that height--i.e., from pan level up to the point of interest--from
atmospheric pressure. Since you are always subtracting *something* to
determine the pressure within the column, it follows that the pressure
everywhere within the column is less than the pressure at the same level
outside the column--which means: if you punch a hole at any point, air is
going to come rushing in.

--Mitchell Jones}***


> This isn't the free energy device I was talking about, that is still to
>come. This is a started which may be able to do the job on it's own. The
>next ones are even better. keep reading.
>MJ

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<excerpt>Hi All,

   I thought I would start with a definition of free energy. To me that
means being able to get more energy out of a system than what you have
to put into it. I have seen people really wrestle with that concept.
For example, what about a rock rolling down a hill? Or how about a
stick of dynamite? Or maybe a nuclear explosion/reactor? Do you get
more energy out of all of those things than what you put into them?
Yes, no doubt about it. Are any of these things either "overunity" or
"Free Energy"? No. Very simple. No. No matter how you slice them they
are not. In all of these cases, MORE potential energy exists than what
you extract from them. Also you can only get then to go in one
direction. Look at the rock for example, it gives you a lot of power
going down the hill but it is going to take you even more power to get
it back up to the top of the hill again to repeat your cycle.
Understand?

   I got into this whole thing because I thought it would be fun to
find a way to use the H2 in water as a fuel. In my brief involvement I
have seen many ideas advanced (and gadgets sold) which purported to
provide free energy but have yet to see any of them get consistently
positive reviews or independent confirmation of their validity. So it
remains a challenge. I thought it would be nice to give you all a real,
simple free energy device that you could experiment with and that
wouldn't be too pricey to build or too complex (or dangerous) for the
average 12 year old to understand. So that is what I am going to try to
do tonight.

   The device, of course, involves water (enki=lord of the waters). If
you are interested I hope you enjoy it. If not, delete it.

   First I would like to turn your attention to a simple experiment
which I am sure that you are all familiar with. Take a drinking glass
and fill it most of the way with water. Next invert it into a shallow
pan of water. What happens? The water hangs suspended inside the glass,
defying gravity.

 

   Want anti-gravity in your home, there it is. Why does the water hang
inside the glass like that? Because if it fell it would cause the air
above it to become so low in pressure that it would create a vacuum. So
the air, in it's attempt to stay at standard pressure has enough
attractive force to hold the water in place against the force of
gravity. You have done the work once and created a self perpetuating
system in which the water will stay in that place indefinitely haven't
you? If nothing changes in the system it would last indefinitely, but
eventually enough water would evaporate from the pan so that air could
be drawn up into the glass and the water would fall. Still though do
you see the beauty of this? How much energy is required to hold a
certain quantity of water in the air like that? Yet here it is, free,
for a one time investment.

   Ok, so that is a static system, sort of the the rock on the top of
the hill. You can't get any useful energy out of it without having
something moving to do the work right? And if you drop the water to get
what energy you can out of it you have losses but can get something.
Unfortunately you also have to expend more energy to get the water back
up into the glass again if you want to continue the cycle with it
right? Undoubtedly this system, as depicted above, can't generate any
more power than what you put into it and is good for a conversation
piece at best. Or is it?

   What if you tried to get some energy out of it? What would be the
best way to do it? I like a water wheel myself. Consider the state of
the water within the glass. It's water. It's not thinned out like the
air above it. I did this experiment and put a small tube into the side
of the glass just below the surface of the water near the top of the
glass. It isn't hard at all to get water to flow out of that tube. It
is at whatever height you have drawn it to so it doesn't have to be
pumped "up" to the outlet. It is already there. So it requires much
less effort to pump water, from just below the surface, straight OUT of
a container than it does to pump water UP from a depth doesn't it? The
only drawback is that you would have to use a pump which didn't let air
back into the container while you were pumping it out. As you pump it
out new water circulates into the container from the pan in the
bottom.

 

   What if you made the tank 30' tall? What if you kept the water level
in it at 25'? Then had a 4' pool in the pan at the bottom?

As you pumped the water out of the TOP of the tank it could fall 20'
over a water wheel which is connected to a generator. A 20' water wheel
can generate a LOT of power, depending on the water flow and the size
of the generator which is attached to it. After all, what is a water
wheel but a set of levers? Remember you aren't pumping the water UP 20'
either. The air is holding it there for you already, you are only
supplying the energy to pump it OUT at the desired rate. And again,
once the water turns the wheel it falls back into the pan where it
eventually is drawn into the bottom of the container again..... Maybe
this is how Tesla figured to turn a water wheel with water the wheel
pumped to it's top. So there, maybe you are starting to understand.

</excerpt>


***{Michael, the above is just a variant of the same fallacy you put
forth earlier, when you were trying to pull water to unlimited heights
using a suction pump. What you didn't grasp then, and still do not
grasp now, is that the pressure inside a column of water that has been
pulled up by suction, is *less* than atmospheric pressure. That means
when you open a hole between the inside and the outside, water will not
flow out, to turn your water wheel; instead, air will be sucked in, and
the column of water will fall back to the level of the fluid in the
pan. 


As I said in my earlier post to you, the pressure at the inlet of a
suction pump is equal to atmospheric pressure minus the head pressure
of the column of water that you have pulled up, and, when that pressure
drops to the vapor pressure of water at 20 deg. C--about 18 mbar if
memory serves--the water begins to boil, and the pump thereafter sucks
water vapor instead of water. The same idea permits you to calculate
the pressure within the column at any point: simply subtract the head
pressure exerted by a column of that height--i.e., from pan level up to
the point of interest--from atmospheric pressure. Since you are always
subtracting *something* to determine the pressure within the column, it
follows that the pressure everywhere within the column is less than the
pressure at the same level outside the column--which means: if you
punch a hole at any point, air is going to come rushing in.


--Mitchell Jones}***

   


<excerpt> This isn't the free energy device I was talking about, that
is still to come. This is a started which may be able to do the job on
it's own. The next ones are even better. keep reading.

MJ

</excerpt>

--============_-1245324696==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 12:02:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Free Energy 1
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[snip]

> --about 18 mbar if memory serves--

***{Correction: that should read mm of mercury, not mbar. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 16:04:27 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 23:07:54 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000816151727.0079fe10 pop.mindspring.com>; from JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com on Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:17:27PM -0400
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On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:17:27PM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> I am not a bit jealous. I say he should finish one job before moving on to
> another, or he loses credibility. It is as if Von Neumann quit design work
> when his contributions were still vital, before the first stored program
> computer was designed.
> 
> By the way, the people who built the early machines thought that Von
> Neumann took too much credit.

Von Neumann was one of a team of individual who were working on the
problem.  He got excited and sent a paper to many interested parties,
but didn't mention any of the others on it - consequently his name was
associated with the new design, and it was named after him.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 16:24:22 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:22:31 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:42:27 -0400:
[snip]
>22. In that meeting, Director Kepplinger indicated that she was concerned
>that the '294 technology involved "cold fusion" and "perpetual motion."1
[snip]
It's such a pity that Director Kepplinger doesn't realise that perpetual
motion is the sole form of existence, and is not only the norm, but that
there are not even any exceptions. Or more to the point that exceptions are
in fact theoretically impossible.
The entire universe, and everything it, down to the least subatomic particle
is in perpetual motion.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: Re: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:42:27 -0400:
[snip]
>According to defendant, this assertion alarmed the Director, who had
>examined the '935 patent, and who had learned of the '292 application,
>because it "did not conform to the known laws of physics and chemistry."
>Id. The March 22 Decision states that the Director "was immediately aware
>that any pending application embodying such a concept raise[d] a
>substantial question of patentability of one or more claims which would
>require reopening prosecution."
>
>
>etc., etc. . . .
It would appear that the director is now out of a job then ;). Since only
new inventions are worth patenting, and many such will rely on new science,
ever fewer new inventions will be patentable, as these will "not conform to
the "known" laws of physics and chemistry".
I would add that in fact nothing is ever known with certainty, and only with
a degree of probability, hence there are no known "laws" of physics and
chemistry, only known theories.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 20:50:05 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:47:29 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: A Teraflop Second
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I confess to having a childish fascination with big machines.

Several years ago I read an article talking about a Trillion 
computations (Teraflop) per second computer. At the time, ten to 
fifteen years ago, it would have required a computer the size of a 
gymnasium inorder to do this.

Any way, I just opened the latest edition of Inter ctive magazine and 
the first page had an ad for Apple Computer's latest machine with 
dual G4 processors. It can perform 7 Gigaflops per second. The first 
thing I did was divide 1000 by 7 the result is 142 and some change. 
Which means that in just under 2  1/2 minutes it can turn a teraflop. 
Now if I can come up a task for that kind of computational horsepower.

 

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: The wobble effect
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Did any of you notice the exchange between David Denard and myself 
regarding the wobble effect? The MN Tesla Society met yesterday. I 
was talking with a man, Tom, about the Hamel motor. He made me a copy 
of Hamel's video tape. Tom says that if you watch the tape often 
enough it will start making sense.

Someone recently posted a URL for a Hamel site on Vortex-L. My 
computer lacks the RAM to go on line at the moment, so until I get 
that corrected I can't look at it. My business partner, Bill, got it 
into his head that he could build a FE machine with rotating magnets. 
I showed him the Kawai patent and he started going on about how that 
was his idea. In subsequent email exchanges with Hal Puthoff I heard 
that Mr. Kawai has now admitted that his measurements were in error 
and that his motor doesn't produce any energy. Any way, Bill has been 
continuing to make noise about building one of those motors. He 
expects me to build it for him of course. I've pointed out to him 
that I don't have time to build machines that I don't believe will 
work. However Tom says that it's all in the wobble. It's the wobble 
that is making the Moon's orbital radius increase, and it's the 
wobble that makes the Hammel motor work. Any comments that any of you 
have on this matter would be appreciated.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 20:55:29 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Mills and Machine Intelligence
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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This discussion has reminded me that Dr. Mills has promised his 
investors that he is going to solve the energy crisis and make them 
all rich by generating electricity by hydrino production. As I 
recall, he was promising to market a generator this fall. Well, it's 
late summer. I assume that one of you Vortexians has been following 
the good doctor's discussion group. When can I purchase one of these 
marvelous machines?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 22:03:21 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Machine Intelligence vs. Biology
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>Most people seem to think the ENIAC was the first computer.  There was
>one built almost 10 years earlier -- and used a capacitive memory
>system that needed refreshing, similar to many of today's RAM designs.
>
>Brief description, with links, is at:
>http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/weekly/aa050898.htm?ia
m=mt&terms=%2B%22iowa+state%22+%2Bcomputer
>
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

Hi Dean,

I'm just now getting around to reading this article, but I forgot all about
Atanasoff, and I've been misspelling Eckert.  My apologies for both.  Thanks
for the URL!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 22:34:31 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The wobble effect
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:32:32 PDT
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The man is right!!!  I never heard anyone else say it.

But tapping into the wobble in gyroscops, the vortex, electromagnetics, will 
not work, IMO.  That will "snuff out" the wobble, and the spin.

But the frame dragging effect can be tapped, again IMO, but all our tests 
point to it.

Some people say frame draggin is just about stuff in space.  I don't think 
so.  Maybe it is different, a hurricane and a spiral galaxy are different, 
but they both have the dual radial arm pattern.

That's the energy spiral, the Third Wave and comes from the wobble, the off 
dead center in every revolution of any spinning object.

Good work Thomas!  Now get it down about how gravity "causes" evaporation 
and the train of thought leads to the cosmological constant.

David


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The wobble effect
>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:52:01 -0500
>
>Did any of you notice the exchange between David Denard and myself
>regarding the wobble effect? The MN Tesla Society met yesterday. I
>was talking with a man, Tom, about the Hamel motor. He made me a copy
>of Hamel's video tape. Tom says that if you watch the tape often
>enough it will start making sense.
>
>Someone recently posted a URL for a Hamel site on Vortex-L. My
>computer lacks the RAM to go on line at the moment, so until I get
>that corrected I can't look at it. My business partner, Bill, got it
>into his head that he could build a FE machine with rotating magnets.
>I showed him the Kawai patent and he started going on about how that
>was his idea. In subsequent email exchanges with Hal Puthoff I heard
>that Mr. Kawai has now admitted that his measurements were in error
>and that his motor doesn't produce any energy. Any way, Bill has been
>continuing to make noise about building one of those motors. He
>expects me to build it for him of course. I've pointed out to him
>that I don't have time to build machines that I don't believe will
>work. However Tom says that it's all in the wobble. It's the wobble
>that is making the Moon's orbital radius increase, and it's the
>wobble that makes the Hammel motor work. Any comments that any of you
>have on this matter would be appreciated.
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 23:10:06 2000
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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:04:09 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: The wobble effect
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Thomas -

   > Did any of you notice the exchange between David
   > Denard and myself regarding the wobble effect?

I have DD on filter due to his hostility and apparent inability or 
lack of desire to discuss these subjects rationally. But I've 
followed the whirlpool and the Hamel material with some curiosity 
anyway. I can't help thinking that the "wobble" described by both is 
just gyroscopic precession. These folks believe they have acquired 
this information from God, or gods, aliens or other higher forces, 
and it's therefore sacrosanct or unassailable, so normal scientific 
discussion with them on the subject is difficult if not impossible - 
which I find very disappointing.

If you think the "wobble" in a whirlpool or Hamel spinner is not 
gyroscopic, why not, and what do you think it is?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 23:14:43 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Mills and Machine Intelligence
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Ha!  That's what they all say.  But the real deal is right here and has been 
right here in front of your eyes the whole time.  Given freely to all.  
Whirlpower is far to simple to enforce ownership, but if you guys pull 
together with me and help me prove it I have some much more advanced work on 
how to use Whirlpower to power flying saucers.  And I think that ownership 
could be enforced.

But the simplicity of whirlpool generating electricity, that even the 
poorest of countries can use, almost anyone could build their own Hero's 
Fountain adn have abundant clean ZPE.  Hal Puthoff told me long ago 
Whirlpower was ZPE, "if it works".  I asked him to help me find out and he 
never replied.  It would not be that hard or expensive for some of you guys 
to build a whirlpool.  I simply don't have any money.

David Dennard
"The hardest working man in Dreamland"
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Dr. Mills and Machine Intelligence
>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:53:07 -0500
>
>This discussion has reminded me that Dr. Mills has promised his
>investors that he is going to solve the energy crisis and make them
>all rich by generating electricity by hydrino production. As I
>recall, he was promising to market a generator this fall. Well, it's
>late summer. I assume that one of you Vortexians has been following
>the good doctor's discussion group. When can I purchase one of these
>marvelous machines?
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 20 23:28:09 2000
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Well, let me apologize, from the bottom on my heart if that will make Rick 
happy.  He is the one that has been doing the name calling.  I bet anyone on 
this list if the situations were reversed would not feel a little bit 
"passionate" about this if you were in my shoes.

And being passionate and not a "real" scientist is whay they are fearturing 
my work in the upcoming BBC special "The Passions of Science".  All about 
amateur scientists that have throughout history beaten the "real" scientist 
to the punch time and time again.  Folks they know what is up now.  
Whirlpower was recenlty presented to a scientific seminar in France.  And 
the Encyclopedial Britannica is now in editorial conference considering 
linking from the word "whirlpool" to my site.  Currently the link goes to 
Whirlpool Washers Dryers and Refrigerators.

Ha!!  I told them, "come on folks, that's not right".  I think it worked.  
:)

David Dennard
On The Threshold of a Dream
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The wobble effect
>Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:04:09 -1000
>
>Thomas -
>
>   > Did any of you notice the exchange between David
>   > Denard and myself regarding the wobble effect?
>
>I have DD on filter due to his hostility and apparent inability or
>lack of desire to discuss these subjects rationally. But I've
>followed the whirlpool and the Hamel material with some curiosity
>anyway. I can't help thinking that the "wobble" described by both is
>just gyroscopic precession. These folks believe they have acquired
>this information from God, or gods, aliens or other higher forces,
>and it's therefore sacrosanct or unassailable, so normal scientific
>discussion with them on the subject is difficult if not impossible -
>which I find very disappointing.
>
>If you think the "wobble" in a whirlpool or Hamel spinner is not
>gyroscopic, why not, and what do you think it is?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: ICCN - MSM Hilton Head Call for Papers
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:33:34 -0400
From: ACRS <info comppub.com>
Reply-To: info comppub.com
To: aki ix.netcom.com

                      Announcement and Call for Papers

                           2001 ACRS Joint Meeting

                             March 19-21 2001
                         Hilton Oceanfront Resort
                      Hilton Head Island, SC, U.S.A

                             http://www.cr.org

                     2001 International Conference on
         Computational Nanoscience (Biology, Chemistry, Materials)
                                ICCN 2001 

                     Fourth International Conference on
                  Modeling and Simulation of Microsystems
                                MSM 2001

                     Abstracts Due: September 29, 2000

ICCN 2001
---------
Advanced computational techniques in the nano and micro
regimes are paramount in the advancement of nanoscience.
ICCN provides a forum for the interdisciplinary blending of
computational efforts in biology, chemistry, physics and
materials, founded on inherently similar ab initio approaches,
applied towards traditionally distinct disciplines.

MSM 2001
--------
The largest gathering in the field worldwide, MSM is the premier
technical forum for presenting the latest research and development
in modeling and simulation methods, tools and applications in the
MEMS, microelectronic, semiconductor, sensor, materials and
biotechnology fields.

Venue
-----
The 2001 ACRS Joint Meeting will be held at the luxurious,
Hilton Oceanfront Resort.  This beach front venue is tucked
away on breathtaking Hilton Head Island, off the southeastern
tip of South Carolina, U.S.A.

In addition to the conference technical program, an exciting 
list of social activities are being planned to allow attendees
ample opportunity to enjoy this exquisite island location,
which enjoys a subtropical climate year-round.

Visit the conference web sites http://www.cr.org/ICCN2001 and
http://www.cr.org/MSM2001 for more infomation, including
registration, housing and abstract submission instructions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     2001 International Conference on
                        Computational Nanoscience
                                ICCN 2001
                        http://www.cr.org/ICCN2001


ICCN 2001 Conference Chairs
---------------------------
-William Goddard, Caltech
   Computational Chemistry
-Roberto Car, Princeton University
   Computational Materials
-Amos Bairoch, Swiss Institute of Bioinformations
   Computational Biology

ICCN 2001 Conference Co-Chairs
------------------------------
-Srinivas Iyer, Los Alamos National Laboratory
-Dirksen Bussiere, Chiron Corp.
-Wolfgang Windl, Motorola

ICCN 2001 Topics and Application Areas
---------------------------------------

Computational Biology
---------------------
-Molecular Modeling
-Protein Engineering
-Structural Biology
-Bioinformatics/Computational Genomics
-Mathematical Biology
-Computational Drug/Molecular Design
-Gengineering
-Functional/Structural Genomics
-Self-Replicating/Organizing Systems

Computational Chemistry
-----------------------
-Combinatorial Chemistry
-Polymers and Colloids
-Solid State and Surface Chemistry
-Catalysis, Separations and Reactions
-Kinetics and Collision Dynamics
-Crystallization and Additives
-Formulations and QSAR
-Molecular Electronic Structure
-Quantum Molecular Dynamics - Theory & Applications
-General Computational Chemistry - Theory & Methods

Computational Materials
-----------------------
-Interfaces and Contacts
-Surfaces, Surface Processes and Thin Films
-Optical and Vibrational Properties
-Mechanical Behavior
-Alloys and Nanostructures
-Tribology
-Radiation Effects in Solids & Cluster Impact Phenomena
-Semiconductors & Electronic Materials
-Glasses & Ceramics
-Materials at High Pressure and High Temperature
-Large-Scale Simulations
-Multiscale Modeling of Materials
-General Theory & Methods

ICCN 2001 Keynote Lectures
--------------------------
-Computational Nanotechnology
   William Goddard, Caltech
-Computational Materials
   Roberto Car, Princeton University
-Computational Biology
   Amos Bairoch, Swiss Institute of Bioinformations
-Nano-Structure Simulation: From Thin Oxides to Biological Ion Channels
   Karl Hess, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

ICCN 2001 Special Sessions
--------------------------
-Structure Based Drug Design: Theory, Computation and Practice
   Fred Cohen, University of California at San Francisco
   Dirksen Bussiere, Chiron Corporation
-Protein Structure and Structural Genomics
   Kurt Krause, University of Houston
-Atomic and Molecular Scale Modeling of Materials
   Niels Gronbech-Jensen, University of California Davis & Berkeley Lab
-Nanoscale Modeling of Front-End Processing in Silicon
   Wolfgang Windl, Motorola
-Quantum Mechanics & Computational Modeling of Soft Matter
   Lawrence Pratt, Los Alamos National Laboratory
   Stephen Paddison, Motorola

   A current frontier of computational modeling  involves soft matter
   and chemical questions that require quantum mechanical methods.
   This segment of ICCN emphasizes ab initio computer simulations
   of solutions and soft matter, O(N) algorithms for electronic
   structure computation, and QM/MM models for condensed matter
   biology, chemistry, and materials science.
  
  Invited Speakers
  ----------------
   -David Chandler, University of California, Berkeley
   -Paolo Carloni, Trieste, Italy
   -Michael Klein, University of Pennsylvania
   -Mark E. Tuckerman, New York University
   -Eric Schwegler, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
   -Matt Challacombe, Los Alamos National Laboratory

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                     Fourth International Conference on
                  Modeling and Simulation of Microsystems
                                MSM 2001
                        http://www.cr.org/MSM2001


MSM 2001 Conference Chairs
--------------------------
-Narayan Aluru, University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign
-Andreas Wild, Motorola

MSM 2001 Topics
---------------
-Mathematical Modeling and Scaling Laws 
-Numerical Methods 
-Finite and Boundary Element Methods 
-Process, Device and Circuit Simulation 
-Model Calibration and Validation 
-Equipment Modeling 
-Computational Materials 
-Combinatorial Chemistry 
-Atomistics and Molecular Simulation 
-Co-simulation and Optimization 
-System and Multi-level Modeling 
-Artificial Intelligence and Expert Systems 
-Virtual Reality and Computer Vision 
-Data Bases, Data Exchange and Translators 

MSM 2001 Application Areas
--------------------------
-Semiconductors and Microelectronics 
-Advanced Packaging and Interconnects 
-Micro Electro Mechanical Systems (MEMS) 
-Smart Sensors and Structures 
-Advanced Lithography and Photonics 
-Biotechnology 
-DNA Chip Technology and Genomics 
-Microfluidic Systems 
-Environmental Monitoring 
-Metrology 
-Manufacturing and Scheduling 
-CAD/CAE/CAM 

MSM 2001 Keynote Lectures
-------------------------
-Towards Predictive TCAD and Fab Integration
   Wolfgang Fichtner, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
-Bringing Together MEMS, Optics, Fluidics, RF & ICs in a Design Flow
   for MST, John Gilbert, Microcosm Technologies, Inc.
-Nano-Structure Simulation: From Thin Oxides to Biological Ion Channels
   Karl Hess, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
-Multiscale Modeling of Microfluidics
   George Karniadakis, Brown University
-Bootstrapping OMEM Device Models to the System Level
   Steven Levitan, University of Pittsburgh

MSM 2001 Special Sessions
-------------------------
-Verilog-A Hardware Description Language
   Ira Miller, Motorola
-Quantum Effects, Quantum Devices and Spintronics
   Dragica Vasilesca, Arizona State University

MSM 2001 Workshops, Tutorials & Panels
--------------------------------------
-Simulation Techniques for Micromachined Devices
   Jacob White, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
-Interdisciplinary Design and Simulation Methods for Micro-and
 Biomedical Fluidic Applications
   Steffen Hardt, Institute of Microtechnology, Mainz, Germany
-MEMS Simulation Tools: Tutorial and Demonstration
   ANSYS, Inc
-Panel: CAD Tools for MEMS
   Moderator: Mary-Ann Maher, MemScap

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                In Association with and Sponsored by

-American Physical Society
-National Science Foundation
-Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
-IEEE Electron Devices Society
-Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics (SIAM)
-Computational Fluid Dynamics Research Corporation
-MemsCap, S.A.
-Motorola, Inc.
-Microcosm Technologies, Inc.
-Molecular Simulations Inc.
-Swiss Federal Institute of Technology of Lausanne
-TIMA-CMP Laboratory, France
-Ibero-American Science and Technology Education Consortium
-International Association for Mathematical and Computer Modelling

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                             http://www.cr.org
                     Abstracts Due: September 29, 2000

                 (c) Applied Computational Research Society

        Please address all questions and requests to info cr.org
       To unsubscribe, please visit http://www.cr.org/remove.html

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The fundamental particles act like simple harmonic oscillators localized in space,
hence "Spin" can be represented as a circle OR a to-and-fro motion.

 http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/shm/shm.html

Wavelength "lambda" = 2(pi)r

Frequency, f = c/2(pi)r = 1/(LC)^1/2

Period, t = 1/f = (LC)^1/2

Velocity, v = 2(pi)r/(LC)^1/2  ~ = c

L = 2(pi)r*uo           C = 2(pi)r*eo

Current, I = q*f =  (2*E/L)^1/2

Since these are Accelated Reference Frames the outward magnetogravity force
is time dilated by a factor of ~ 3.5E18 for a quark or ~ 2.0E21 for an electron,
thus the weak gravitational force, F = 1.0E-7* M1*M2/R^2.

where M1 and M2 is the magnetic pole strength in Ampere-Meters.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 07:56:40 2000
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A footnote to this discussion about ENIAC and Atanasoff. Iowa State
University at Ames is my Alma Mater and was called Iowa State College when I
was there in the mid '40s. Iowa State was then and still is a major AEC
site, for it was there that uranium for the Manhattan project was purified
during the war by the "Spedding Aids", which I think is basically ion
exchange chemistry. The college got the Army-Navy "E" award four times
during the war, but all the work was classified, so we students knew nothing
about it. However, the activity was one reason the college administration
overlooked the value of the Atanasoff-Barry machine and neglected to file
for what would have been one of the most valuable patents of the century.

Credit to A&B has been slow coming, but their priority is acknowledged by a
wall poster in the Smithsonian Museum of American History, along with pieces
of ENIAC. On the campus of the University of Pennsylvania, there is a plaque
commemorating the building of ENIAC, which is correctly described as the
first_large_electronic computer. It was the first big one, but not the
first, which was the A&B machine.

The A&B machine was a serial processor which used a rotating drum for
intermediate storage. The storage mechanism was capacitative, which meant
that it had to be periodically refreshed like a DRAM.

Mike Carrell

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Re: The wobble effect
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In a message dated 8/21/00 2:09:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rick highsurf.com writes:

<< If you think the "wobble" in a whirlpool or Hamel spinner is not 
 gyroscopic, why not, and what do you think it is?
 
 - Rick Monteverde
 Honolulu, HI
  >>


The thing to do is to find the moment of inertia of a system of particles, 
compute the moment of inertia tensor, and evaluate the tensor at the center 
of rotation.

I'm not about to do this for a whirlpool.  Who cares.  One thing I always 
wanted to do is to look at the S,P,D and F atomic patterns and the S,P, and D 
radiation patterns of a radio antenna in terms of the gyroscopic motion of a 
orbiting electron.  Any ideas?  I need to do this next.

I've already described the deBrogle Wavelength in terms of a beat note formed 
by the Compton wavelength and its Doppler shifted refection.  Enjoy the 
animation.

http://members.aol.com/znidarsicf/Waves.html

This is an important piece of logic in that it shows that force contains the 
mass energy of matter.  Common knowledge states that mass energy is continued 
by the superposition of an infinite series of component waves.  Showing force 
as the contining mechanism leads to the deBroglie result above.  I have the 
math. Some of it published in IE "Force and Gravity." This analysis leads to 
the constants of the motion theory.  This theory states that the constants of 
the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is 
stimulated at a frequency of one mega hertz-meter.  The important point is I 
got this answer before the experiments results were in.  Jed has since 
pointed out that 50 nm is the size that produces the best cold fusion 
reaction.  At infrared frequencies at 10exp 14 hertz times 50 nm you get one 
mega hertz meter.  The Tampere is also at one mega hertz meter. The 
stimulation of a 1/3 meter disc at  3.1 mega hertz increases the effect.  In 
my lecture at UIUC I presented this relationship BEFORE the experimental 
results were it.

It a long story Any ideas of S,P,D, and F? .  Enjoy the animation.

Frank Znidarsic


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 08:39:51 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Atlanta traffic & future remedies
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Attached is a letter I wrote in response to an article published today:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/ issue/constitution/bookman/082100
.html

Dear Jay,

Your columns about traffic jams and urban sprawl are most welcome. I have
been worried about these problems since the early '60s. I appreciate the
tone of stark realism you present to the public. However, in your
legitimate concern for the present, you may be overlooking promising
developments in the future. Many of the problems you describe are amenable
to technical solutions, especially new forms of telecommuting.

Today, we think of telecommuting as one person working out of his home with
an intermittent computer link to an office. This works well for people in
some jobs, such as traveling salesman or writers, but most office workers
would not be able to do their jobs effectively with today's limited
telecommuting capabilities. Many people find it isolating, and some
managers find it hard to keep track of who is doing what. In the
not-so-distant future, enhanced capabilities may make telecommuting as
practical as working in the same physical office with other people.

Take videoconferencing, for example. Nowadays it costs hundreds of dollars
per hour and it is used rarely by executives who must drive downtown to a
television studio. In a few years, high-speed Internet connections and
large, thin, lightweight, wall-mounted television screens will allow anyone
to set up a videoconference to any location on earth at virtually no cost.
It will be cheaper and more convenient to set up a videoconference from
Atlanta to a customer in Marietta than to drive there. Soon, people who
telecommute will set up permanent, all day video links, so the boss can
look up anytime and see what the worker is doing, and a co-worker with a
question or the latest water cooler gossip can "drop in" a moment's notice
by ringing up your view phone. The era of telecommuting in your bathrobe
will be over. A person working at home, or at a satellite branch office,
will have as much moment-to-moment visual contact and casual association
with his co-workers as a person working in a cubicle does today. Today, a
person in your office thinks nothing of sending you an e-mail, even though
that technology was developed to communicate with people in distant places.
Someday a person who is down the hall from you in the same satellite office
will say hello by appearing life-size on a 1-square meter, high resolution
viewscreen on the wall in front of you. If this sounds impossibly
futuristic, consider that I rode to work this morning on an electric
bicycle after checking the local satellite picture for rain; I am dictating
this letter to you with a voice input program; and as I drank my morning
cup of tea I paused to see the news daily electronic pictures and news from
a small village in Japan, and to watch live videos from Cornell University.
That would have seemed impossibly futuristic in 1995. (See:
http://www.total.co.jp/town-kuka/kyoukuka.htm,
http://www.info.cornell.edu/CUHomePage/CornellStream.html,
http://ncricam.campuslife.cornell.edu/EX1/default.html.)

Someday, the only people who commute long distances to work over the
highways will be those who must meet face-to-face with their customers,
such as doctors, and the dwindling number of people who do physical labor
for a living, such as grocery store workers and mechanics. Most others will
commute a few miles, or no distance at all. I do not know how much this
will reduce traffic, but I guess it will be something like 80%. It will
also reduce energy consumption and pollution by huge amount. Today's
cameras, televisions and other videoconferencing equipment consume a lot of
power and take up much space, but the next generation televisions will
consume only a little more power than the fluorescent lights they augment.

Building this technology will cost tremendous amounts of money, and
adjusting to it will require changes in our culture and outlook. But the
changeover will not be as difficult, expensive, disruptive or
time-consuming as building the highway system was. It is far cheaper to lay
a fiber-optic connection that to build a highway. Effective telecommuting
may take 10 or 20 years to develop, but it will be done incrementally, and
it will be a profitable business at each stage, so it will be no burden on
society. You may find it hard to believe, but this kind of technology can
permanently eliminate the traffic problem, even at much higher population
density than we now have. You wrote, "little Cameron Reamer is going to
grow up in a different world than his parents did." That is true, but if we
have the will, and the imagination, it will be a world in which traffic
jams are so unusual they will be front page news, like today's power
outages or the rare occassions when a backhoe cuts a cable and disrupts our
telecommunication network.

Best Regards,


Jed Rothwell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 08:44:34 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Frank, why "who cares" about a whirlpool?  Can't you get off your high horse 
and see the simplicity?  If a simple whirlpool can generate electricity, 
then then everyone can have clean abundant energy; simple clean Whirlpower, 
and clean water.  It is not about some big fancy expensive complicated 
thing, it is SIMPLE.

"Who cares",  folks that is the attitude that is wrong with this world, and 
the ignorance that has polluted it for so long.

David


>From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The wobble effect
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:10:53 EDT
>
>In a message dated 8/21/00 2:09:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>rick highsurf.com writes:
>
><< If you think the "wobble" in a whirlpool or Hamel spinner is not
>  gyroscopic, why not, and what do you think it is?
>
>  - Rick Monteverde
>  Honolulu, HI
>   >>
>
>
>The thing to do is to find the moment of inertia of a system of particles,
>compute the moment of inertia tensor, and evaluate the tensor at the center
>of rotation.
>
>I'm not about to do this for a whirlpool.  Who cares.  One thing I always
>wanted to do is to look at the S,P,D and F atomic patterns and the S,P, and 
>D
>radiation patterns of a radio antenna in terms of the gyroscopic motion of 
>a
>orbiting electron.  Any ideas?  I need to do this next.
>
>I've already described the deBrogle Wavelength in terms of a beat note 
>formed
>by the Compton wavelength and its Doppler shifted refection.  Enjoy the
>animation.
>
>http://members.aol.com/znidarsicf/Waves.html
>
>This is an important piece of logic in that it shows that force contains 
>the
>mass energy of matter.  Common knowledge states that mass energy is 
>continued
>by the superposition of an infinite series of component waves.  Showing 
>force
>as the contining mechanism leads to the deBroglie result above.  I have the
>math. Some of it published in IE "Force and Gravity." This analysis leads 
>to
>the constants of the motion theory.  This theory states that the constants 
>of
>the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is
>stimulated at a frequency of one mega hertz-meter.  The important point is 
>I
>got this answer before the experiments results were in.  Jed has since
>pointed out that 50 nm is the size that produces the best cold fusion
>reaction.  At infrared frequencies at 10exp 14 hertz times 50 nm you get 
>one
>mega hertz meter.  The Tampere is also at one mega hertz meter. The
>stimulation of a 1/3 meter disc at  3.1 mega hertz increases the effect.  
>In
>my lecture at UIUC I presented this relationship BEFORE the experimental
>results were it.
>
>It a long story Any ideas of S,P,D, and F? .  Enjoy the animation.
>
>Frank Znidarsic
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 08:45:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:37:59 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Free Energy 3
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>HI Again,
>   Ok, so, where were we? Oh yes, I remember, I was giving you the world's
>first true overunity device (I think).
>   I only put three containers on the system but the pump seemed to have
>no trouble with it so I'm not sure there is a limit to the number it could
>carry. Probably this is tied to the capacity of the pump. Remember that we
>are pumping water OUT  from the BOTTOM of container number one and so, as
>long as the air has somewhere else (the inlet) to suck something in from,
>gravity is helping us move the water out! There is very little effort
>required by the pump to do this.
>   My next step was to add a holding tank so that I could connect
>container three to that as it's intake supply and as the catch basin for
>the pumps outlet:
>
>   So now we have a little complete cycle from intake to outlet. All in
>one neat, continuous loop. I thought I might be onto something here. So
>far we have natural forces helping us allow one pump to do the work of
>three, four if you count sucking water up out of the basin. By the way the
>basin was also a Rubbermaid storage container. I like them because they
>are sturdy plastic and they are transparent. Also please view the holding
>basin as being in front of the containers and not below it. The above
>diagram lacks perspective to make it easier to see.
>   The next step was to see how we could generate power with this device.
>Hopefully we can make enough to run our one pump:
>
> 
> 
>
>   As you can see it would be possible to run a total of 4 water
>wheel/generator combinations with this setup. Add more canisters, add
>equally more wheel/generators. Are we at overunity yet? The water was
>flowing into the containers anyway and the weight of the falling water
>turns the wheels so they put zero additional stress on the system.


***{Incorrect. Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi, and that you
need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air pocket,
in order to pull the fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost air pocket,
and that you need a 1 psi difference to pull fluid up the standpipe from
the leftmost air pocket to the middle air pocket, and a 1 psi difference to
pull fluid from the middle pocket to the pocket on the right. Result: the
pressure at the pump inlet must be 15 - 1.5 - 1 -1 = 11.5 psi. Thus each
additional air pocket forces the pump to work harder, or, in your words,
"puts additional stress on the system." If you had ten air pockets instead
of three, for example, then the pressure at the pump inlet would have to be
15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 psi. Thus the pump would have to work *much harder* in
that case, than in the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the
flow loop. Moreover, since the pressure drops progressively as you move
from left to right, it follows that if you add enough air pockets in the
system, the pressure at the pump inlet will eventually fall to the vapor
pressure of the water, and the water in the rightmost air pocket will begin
to boil. Result: your pump will begin to suck water vapor instead of water,
and you will have reached the absolute physical limit of the system. At
that point, if you will add the up the lengths  of all the standpipes in
your system, you will find that the total comes to about 35 feet--which
means: this scheme, conceptually, is identical to the first one you
proposed, and is subject to the same logical fallacy: the pressure
progressively drops in the system, as you move toward the pump inlet, in
the same manner as for the original system that you proposed. Result: the
more columns of water you raise over that interval, the more the pressure
must drop at the pump inlet, and the more work the pump must do. --Mitchell
Jones}***

> But wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an electrical pump
>instead of the hand powered one. MJ
> 

--============_-1245250049==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"



<excerpt>HI Again,

   Ok, so, where were we? Oh yes, I remember, I was giving you the
world's first true overunity device (I think).

   I only put three containers on the system but the pump seemed to
have no trouble with it so I'm not sure there is a limit to the number
it could carry. Probably this is tied to the capacity of the pump.
Remember that we are pumping water OUT  from the BOTTOM of container
number one and so, as long as the air has somewhere else (the inlet) to
suck something in from, gravity is helping us move the water out! There
is very little effort required by the pump to do this.

   My next step was to add a holding tank so that I could connect
container three to that as it's intake supply and as the catch basin
for the pumps outlet:

 

   So now we have a little complete cycle from intake to outlet. All in
one neat, continuous loop. I thought I might be onto something here. So
far we have natural forces helping us allow one pump to do the work of
three, four if you count sucking water up out of the basin. By the way
the basin was also a Rubbermaid storage container. I like them because
they are sturdy plastic and they are transparent. Also please view the
holding basin as being in front of the containers and not below it. The
above diagram lacks perspective to make it easier to see.

   The next step was to see how we could generate power with this
device. Hopefully we can make enough to run our one pump:

 

 

 


   As you can see it would be possible to run a total of 4 water
wheel/generator combinations with this setup. Add more canisters, add
equally more wheel/generators. Are we at overunity yet? The water was
flowing into the containers anyway and the weight of the falling water
turns the wheels so they put zero additional stress on the system.

</excerpt>


***{Incorrect. Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi, and that
you need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air
pocket, in order to pull the fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost
air pocket, and that you need a 1 psi difference to pull fluid up the
standpipe from the leftmost air pocket to the middle air pocket, and a
1 psi difference to pull fluid from the middle pocket to the pocket on
the right. Result: the pressure at the pump inlet must be 15 - 1.5 - 1
-1 = 11.5 psi. Thus each additional air pocket forces the pump to work
harder, or, in your words, "puts additional stress on the system." If
you had ten air pockets instead of three, for example, then the
pressure at the pump inlet would have to be 15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 psi.
Thus the pump would have to work *much harder* in that case, than in
the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the flow loop.
Moreover, since the pressure drops progressively as you move from left
to right, it follows that if you add enough air pockets in the system,
the pressure at the pump inlet will eventually fall to the vapor
pressure of the water, and the water in the rightmost air pocket will
begin to boil. Result: your pump will begin to suck water vapor instead
of water, and you will have reached the absolute physical limit of the
system. At that point, if you will add the up the lengths  of all the
standpipes in your system, you will find that the total comes to about
35 feet--which means: this scheme, conceptually, is identical to the
first one you proposed, and is subject to the same logical fallacy: the
pressure progressively drops in the system, as you move toward the pump
inlet, in the same manner as for the original system that you proposed.
Result: the more columns of water you raise over that interval, the
more the pressure must drop at the pump inlet, and the more work the
pump must do. --Mitchell Jones}***


<excerpt> But wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an
electrical pump instead of the hand powered one. MJ

 

</excerpt>

--============_-1245250049==_ma============--

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Atlanta traffic & future remedies
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The vast majority of trafic flow problems are caused by the fact that
traffic controllers pursue their own personal short-term self-interests
rather than the public interest. Basically what is happening is this: the
more control they attempt to exert on the traffic flow, via the
proliferation of red lights, stop signs, speed limits, indications of when
you can and cannot pass, curbing to restrict when you can and cannot turn
off or cross a median, etc., the more they personally benefit. The personal
benefits come in the form of bigger budgets, bigger staffs, and higher
salaries for traffic control personnel. Hence they are biased in favor of
control: they want to believe not merely that a traffic light is needed at
every intersection, but that one is needed in every lane at every
intersection, because the more traffic lights they can justify buying and
maintaining, the bigger their budgets will have to be, the more personnel
they will be able to justify hiring, and, obviously, the more pay they will
receive for supervising those personnel.

The attempts at control, in turn, obstruct traffic flow. Each order which
they give to the driving public (above a bare minimum or reasonable
constraints such as driving on the right side of the road and being
careful) has the effect of increasing traffic congestion, because the
actual driver on the scene has information which they do not, and can
recognize situations where their orders are pointless. If, for example, you
come to a stop sign where visibility is good both ways and no one is
coming, it is pointless to stop. If you do so, you add wear and tear on
your brakes, and, by bleeding off the kinetic energy that you had, you
waste gasoline. (You will have to burn additional gas to accelerate back up
to speed again, after your pointless stop.) And similar situations arise
vis-a-vis all traffic controls. Traffic lights, for example, are
abominations which cause most of the traffic congestion in the country, and
most of the accidents. All should be eliminated by simply placing yield
signs on the low traffic branches of intersections. If that were done, we
would discover that we have twice as many road and highways as we need,
rather than half as many, and we would also discover that the accident
rates would collapse down to a tiny fraction of what they are today, due to
the alleviation of the congestion.

It won't happen, of course, because the public worships the state as God,
and they *know* such a plan would be ridiculous. It is utterly
inconceivable to them that most of the traffic problems we have are caused
by the state's attempts at control, rather than alleviated by those
attempts. *Nobody but a kook would, for even an instant, entertain the
notion that freedom might be superior to being ordered around.*

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 12:06:16 2000
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In a message dated 8/21/00 11:41:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
daviddennard hotmail.com writes:

<< Frank, why "who cares" about a whirlpool?  Can't you get off your high 
horse 
 and see the simplicity?  If a simple whirlpool can generate electricity, 
 then then everyone can have clean abundant energy; simple clean Whirlpower, 
 and clean water.  It is not about some big fancy expensive complicated 
 thing, it is SIMPLE.
 
 "Who cares",  folks that is the attitude that is wrong with this world, and 
 the ignorance that has polluted it for so long.
  >>snip
David  What is about a Whirlpool that generates electricity?  How?  
I'm not a high horse but I need some reason.  Start with the conservation 
laws.  If you can prove a point using them I will accept it.  This is what I 
have done and even then many reject what I am saying.  Except for perhaps 
Miley.  Yes a whirlpool is simple.  It is simple in that it Follows the Laws 
of Physics and conserves angular momentum.  Did you know that?  A Whirlpool 
is also complex in that it is an unstable system.  
<snip>
the ignorance that has polluted it for so long.
<snip>
I agree with that, however, greater ignorance is not the answer.

Frank

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 13:18:46 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>The differences between BLP and CETI are many, large, and decisive; and
Mills 
>keeps creating new opportunities.

Where?!? He has not demonstrated or sold a single dollar's worth of product
after ten years of operation. He is supposedly running a commercial
corporation, not an academic think tank. The purpose of a corporation is to
sell products and make a profit, but BLP has not sold anything.

I don't see any "new opportunities." I see controversial claims which are
now obsolete, eight years of missed deadlinese, and millions of dollars in
investor's money vanished, but no sign of any "opportunity" in the business
sense. I cannot judge the potential value of Mills' theories or his
contributions to pure science. He might be making great strides secretly,
preparing for a major product rollout this fall. But so far he has not
accomplished anything commercially. Ten years is a ridiculously long time
for a business venture to begin operations! It is unheard of. The most
massive, complex business ventures in history, like the transcontinental
railroad, the IBM 360, and the Boeing 747 did not take ten years to
commence sales, although they continued to lose money long after the
initial product rollout. By normal business standards, the performance of
BLP so far would be considered a disaster, and it would call for a top to
bottom change in management.

I have not criticized the shrinking hydrogen theory because the science is
over my head, but I would like to repeat that after ICCF-8 the theory is
now obsolete. The facts do not fit it, so it serves no purpose. Mills is
like an ingenious detective who has cracked a devilishly complex murder
case, but the supposed victim just walked into the room after a vacation in
Cancun. The  theory was based on the assumption that CF cannot be a nuclear
process because it does not produce nuclear products. It has now been
rigorously established that CF *does* produce helium commensurate with the
heat, at exactly the levels predicted by hot fusion theory. That's helium,
not shrunken hydrogen. The mass spec machines could distinguish them. I am
sure the excess heat phenomenon Mills observed years ago with nickel
hydrides is the same one observed by so many conventional CF scientists. If
McKubre has helium, so does Mills -- no matter what he says it is or thinks
he measures. No one can explain why CF produces commensurate helium without
the radiation, but it does, case closed, so we can dismiss Mills and
everyone else who does not take into account this helium. I expect that
narrows down the theory candidates, winnowing out Mills along with several
others. His theory may be good for many things, but it cannot explain the
energy produced by his devices, and frankly, I do not care about the other
stuff his theory supposedly explains, because I am a philistine. Astronomy
and cosmology interest me about as much as astrology and cosmetology.
Although I must say the recent detection of planets by monitoring star
light levels is remarkable. (See the latest issue of Sci Am.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 13:38:34 2000
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:04:04 -0500
From: "Marc G. Millis" <Marc.G.Millis lerc.nasa.gov>
To:
Subject: Breakthrough Propulsion Physics (BPP) 

For those who are interested in what's next for the NASA Breakthrough
Propulsion Physics (BPP) Project and what the project is doing to keep up
with the latest round of claims (such as the one recently sent to you),
here's WHAT'S NEXT

A review of all tasks supported by the BPP project will occur in a session
at the July 2001 Joint Propulsion Conference (JPC):

	37th AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference
	Salt Lake City, Utah
	08 to 11, July 2001

Other papers about BPP related research results will also be solicited for
this conference session.  This CALL FOR PAPERS will likely go out in the
fall of 2000.  Contrary to prior years, I am not having BPP sessions at the
next STAIF conference.  Rather than devoting my limited resources to
another round of paper reviews, I am focusing my attention on setting up
the means to support more research.


Due to the larger than expected number of viable research candidates and
the positive response to the BPP Project in general, the BPP Project plans
and resources are under revision.  Currently, the following elements are
being considered for addition to the BPP:
	- BPP Research Consortium of NASA, Academic, and Industry Advisors.
	- Internet Database with research results.
	- Internet proposal / idea submission mechanism.

The next CALL FOR RESEARCH PROPOSALS is currently being planned.  It is
estimated that this call might go out around July of 2001 and will have a
3-month response window.  In addition to having another formal solicitation
in the summer of 2001, I am adapting the BPP solicitation and review
process to the internet to handle submissions and reviews on a continuous,
distributed basis.  In this way, spurious proposals can be compared to
those that are already in the queue so that the best, rather than the most
opportunistic, get support.  Furthermore, to prevent duplications of
research, I am also setting up a database of research results and to list
those topics that are currently under investigation.  In this way,
prospective researchers or supporters can check to see if certain
approaches have already been investigated.  I've encountered a number of
frustrating situations where researchers have conducted tests without
publishing the results, only to have that same dead-end approach get
another round of support from someone else - again without publishing the
null results.

If you are doing any research related to BPP, I implore you to publish the
results so that other researchers can learn from your experiences.  The
2001 JPC is an appropriate venue.  Furthermore, I implore you to ensure
that all reports are done in the most legitimate manner - no sensationalism
and no jumping to conclusions.  This topic is still far enough off the
beaten path so that exemplary behavior is required for it to be taken
seriously.


Thank you for your consideration,

Marc

------------------------
Marc G. Millis
Project Manager, NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project
NASA John H. Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field
21000 Brookpark Rd., MS 86-2
Cleveland, OH 44135-3191

Voice (216) 977-7535
Fax (216) 977-7545
Marc.G.Millis GRC.NASA.gov

Breakthrough Propulsion Physics PROJECT site:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/

PUBLIC EDUCATION "Warp Drive, When?" site:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 14:48:11 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Frank,

To say you can or even begin to dispose of something by scientific law just 
does not cut it anymore.  Only by the Scientific Method can anything be 
disposed of, only by test and experiment, only by the facts.

"Scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs", Dr. 
Vera Rubin states in the ABC NEWS Transcript I have posted at my website.  
She is the authority on such matters.

"Cosmology is not science if it cannot predict the data", stated Dr. Stephen 
Hawking in a recent interview in Discover Magazine.

And none of it has, as Dr. Rubin points out in the transcript.  None of it 
is science.

The flat space teams say we are returning to the cosmological constant, and 
flat space has now been announced as proven.  The cosmological constant is 
not part of the thermodynamic paradigm.  It is the concept whereby gravity 
gives the energy of motion to all things.

As shown in my work, gravity "causes" evaporation, not heat.  Heat 
vaporizes, gravity evaporates.  Heat is static, gravity is dynamic.

Now, if you can point to any data on whirlpools, then you will have made a 
reply of substance.  No one has here or on any list.  Not to be confused 
with a tornado type vortex, drain type, Schauberger type, toilet flusher 
type.  See my splash page at:

http://www.whirlpower.cc

Show me any data on such a structure seen in those photos then we can 
discuss if it is stable or not.  Or if it can be explained by known science. 
  Spiral galaxies can't, hurricanes can't, and my research (0ver 10,000 
archived pages, backed up by top vortex experts) shows science does not even 
know what a whirlpool is, no data, no tests.

David


>From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The wobble effect
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:03:33 EDT
>
>In a message dated 8/21/00 11:41:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>daviddennard hotmail.com writes:
>
><< Frank, why "who cares" about a whirlpool?  Can't you get off your high
>horse
>  and see the simplicity?  If a simple whirlpool can generate electricity,
>  then then everyone can have clean abundant energy; simple clean 
>Whirlpower,
>  and clean water.  It is not about some big fancy expensive complicated
>  thing, it is SIMPLE.
>
>  "Who cares",  folks that is the attitude that is wrong with this world, 
>and
>  the ignorance that has polluted it for so long.
>   >>snip
>David  What is about a Whirlpool that generates electricity?  How?
>I'm not a high horse but I need some reason.  Start with the conservation
>laws.  If you can prove a point using them I will accept it.  This is what 
>I
>have done and even then many reject what I am saying.  Except for perhaps
>Miley.  Yes a whirlpool is simple.  It is simple in that it Follows the 
>Laws
>of Physics and conserves angular momentum.  Did you know that?  A Whirlpool
>is also complex in that it is an unstable system.
><snip>
>the ignorance that has polluted it for so long.
><snip>
>I agree with that, however, greater ignorance is not the answer.
>
>Frank
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 15:27:31 2000
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Jed said:


> Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>
> >The differences between BLP and CETI are many, large, and decisive; and
> Mills
> >keeps creating new opportunities.
>
> Where?!? He has not demonstrated or sold a single dollar's worth of
product
> after ten years of operation. He is supposedly running a commercial
> corporation, not an academic think tank.

He has distributed samples of hydrino hydrides to interested parties
worldwide, including South Africa, according to some reasonably reliable
information. These are, effective, the 'gadgets' that Jed has so long
advocated as evidence of a new paradigm. Users can make their own tests to
determine commercial utility.

The purpose of a corporation is to
> sell products and make a profit, but BLP has not sold anything.

See above "free promotional samples".
>
> I don't see any "new opportunities."

A new class of chemicals with remarkable properties does not consist of "new
opportunities'?

I see controversial claims which are
> now obsolete, eight years of missed deadlinese, and millions of dollars in
> investor's money vanished, but no sign of any "opportunity" in the
business
> sense. I cannot judge the potential value of Mills' theories or his
> contributions to pure science. He might be making great strides secretly,
> preparing for a major product rollout this fall. But so far he has not
> accomplished anything commercially.

See "free samples". Count people offering money for a place in line. Note
the vigor with which he is being attacked in an attempt to gut his patent
position and discourage commercial development. Now Jed, do you think the
long knives would be going after Mills if he did not pose some threat?

Ten years is a ridiculously long time
> for a business venture to begin operations! It is unheard of. The most
> massive, complex business ventures in history, like the transcontinental
> railroad, the IBM 360, and the Boeing 747 did not take ten years to
> commence sales, although they continued to lose money long after the
> initial product rollout.

All of these were extensions of existing technology, not new developments.
The comparision is invalid.

 By normal business standards, the performance of
> BLP so far would be considered a disaster, and it would call for a top to
> bottom change in management.

Who said this was a normal business? Jed is counting the time from Mill's
inspiration to try the Ni-H20 cell to present. Try the time from Tesla's
inspiration for a polyphase motor to the implementations under Westinghous's
sponsorship.
>
> I have not criticized the shrinking hydrogen theory because the science is
> over my head, but I would like to repeat that after ICCF-8 the theory is
> now obsolete.

Non sequitur. You just said the science is over your head and then go on to
say that it is obsoleted by ICCF-8. They aren't the same process.

 The facts do not fit it, so it serves no purpose.

What facts are you comparing?

Mills is
> like an ingenious detective who has cracked a devilishly complex murder
> case, but the supposed victim just walked into the room after a vacation
in
> Cancun. The  theory was based on the assumption that CF cannot be a
nuclear
> process because it does not produce nuclear products. It has now been
> rigorously established that CF *does* produce helium commensurate with the
> heat, at exactly the levels predicted by hot fusion theory. That's helium,
> not shrunken hydrogen. The mass spec machines could distinguish them. I am
> sure the excess heat phenomenon Mills observed years ago with nickel
> hydrides is the same one observed by so many conventional CF scientists.

How can you be so sure? Mills has massive date to show the existence of
hydrinos and hydrino compounds. As you have so often said, one should
consult the original papers, which have been on BLP's website, before
announcing conclusions. It should be obvious by now that the FP effect is
one of a class of LENR or CANR reactions and the BLP reactiosn may be
another class entirely. We are far from the point of understanding from
which all of these may be seen as aspects of something more fundamental and
embracing.

If
> McKubre has helium, so does Mills -- no matter what he says it is or
thinks
> he measures.

How can you be so sure?

No one can explain why CF produces commensurate helium without
> the radiation, but it does, case closed, so we can dismiss Mills and
> everyone else who does not take into account this helium.

On what basis? This is the same mental closure for which the high energy
physicists have been reviled.

I expect that
> narrows down the theory candidates, winnowing out Mills along with several
> others. His theory may be good for many things, but it cannot explain the
> energy produced by his devices

How can you say this? It isn't just the energy, it's the chemicals as well.
And he has several catalysis systems, hydrogen-potassium being just one of
several.

, and frankly, I do not care about the other
> stuff his theory supposedly explains, because I am a philistine.

Ah so.

<snip>

Jed should be given much credit as a durable champion of the F&P CF effect
against imaginative criticism over the last decade. He has read the papers,
gone to the meetings at his own expense and done battle with a parade of
detractors. Clearly, McKubre's results reported at ICCF-8 are the capstone
of an impressive edifice of results validating what F&P reported in 1989.
The helium is there, a clear nuclear byproduct of DD fusion in proportion to
the excess heat produced. Experimental case closed, the ball is now in the
court of theorists to reconcile this with other observations. It is also
clear that the F&P effect is one of many, which need to be explored. There
is no way to predict what the commercial path may be, but a laurels are due
to Jed and Gene Mallove for the public battle waged while a handful of
researchers have carried the fundamental work forward.

That said, it is chauvinistic to assert that the Mills effects are CF or
pseudo-CF. Mills has continually asserted that his work is hyperchemistry,
not nuclear physics, and done his best to keep a distance from the CF camp.
Yet the enemies of new energy paradigms are equating BLP and CF and
Perpetual Motion in an effort to gut Mills' patent position.

There was mention of a while back of a DoE internal memorandum that DoE
should take charge of all energy policy under the 'domestic tranquility'
clause in the Constitution. This can be read as anything that would upset
the status quo as seen by some administrator or other. Such as CF and BLP.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 15:27:44 2000
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August 21, 2000

Vortex,

I believe it was in February that news came out that BLP had been
granted a patent. Since then, four more  were approved for patents to
the extent of publication, but were withdrawn by the PTO. BLP contested
the withdrawal and lost the preliminary round against them in favor of
the PTO.

On April 30, at an APS conference in Long Beach, Zimmerman was scheduled 
to speak about 'Touching the Third Rail' with reference to pseudo
science and pseudo scientists. The subject covered CF and BLP activities 
among others. And it also was related to Robert Park's continuing effort
against what he(Park) believed was 'voodoo science'. A book with that 
title did come out later.

However, following BLP's court appeal in court to overturn the Patent 
Office's retraction of the additional patent grants the first patent 
already issued, the April talk subject was canceled. Unknown to Scott 
Chubb (of Talbott and Scott, CF theoreticians) there was a desire to 
record the scheduled talk so I went and recorded Zimmerman's talk which 
was without the 'third rail' subject. Actually, before the conference 
and after the lawsuit by BLP, the APS online Abstract of Zimmerman's 
presentation was deleted.  

Anyway Zimmerman and Park are important long standing members of 
the APS political and administrative structure. It can be assumed they
are 'good buddies'.

Right after BLP was issued the first patent, Park wrote in 'What's New' 
a blast against the PTO's patent issuance, then thereafter fell
strangely silent on anything to do with CF. Strange because Park 
had been consistent and diligent against CF. Not so strange when 
he became aware that there was a lawsuit on. Why, he did not even 
say anything about the ICCF which he had never failed to do before. 
And now with BLP losing the appeal, Park has come right back in his 
'What's New' with his voice against CF.

So I think it can be imagined that everything done to cause the Patent
Office to change their mind was done 'underground' from many channels. 
Perhaps another appeal by BLP and the legal discovery process could
bring this out. BLP, for their part, had retracted this process in 
their initial appeal, relying mostly on the issue of their timely 
payment of the requisite fees.
 
On the surface, Zimmerman and Park were critics of BLP and CF and
had nothing to do with the PTO process of granting patents. 
You would think they were free to  continue to keep on going with 
their criticisms regardless of the BLP lawsuit. 
So why become silent suddenly --- unless they were intimately involved.

The court mentions, in their Finding of Facts, that the PTO Director
became aware that the BLP applications were against the laws of science. 
It seems the Director did not specify exactly what laws were being 
violated in the patent and patent applications. More likely, the 
Director and/or his advisors are confused about theories being laws. 
Such theories as the Nuclear Theory, the Theory of Quantum Mechanics, 
Theory of Relativity, and others. Replace Theory with the words 
Hypothesis  or Speculation and it becomes clearer that 
they are not Laws of Science.

As a layman, I cannot argue for or against the merits of BLP's effort.
At least he is applying his own theory to practice. And the efforts 
against it does smell funny.


-AK-

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: To Jed ..Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In that meeting, Director Kepplinger indicated that she was concerned
> >that the '294 technology involved "cold fusion" and "perpetual motion."1
> [snip]
> It's such a pity that Director Kepplinger doesn't realise that perpetual
> motion is the sole form of existence, and is not only the norm, but that
> there are not even any exceptions. Or more to the point that exceptions are
> in fact theoretically impossible.
> The entire universe, and everything it, down to the least subatomic particle
> is in perpetual motion.
> 
It has bothered me for a long time that we somehow manage to
ignore this obvious fact and in effect continually assert that nothing
can exist. I'm glad to find that I am not the only person to see that
perpetual motion not only exists but is ubiquitous and essential.
-
>It would appear that the director is now out of a job then ;). Since only
>new inventions are worth patenting, and many such will rely on new science,
>ever fewer new inventions will be patentable, as these will "not conform to
>the "known" laws of physics and chemistry".
>I would add that in fact nothing is ever known with certainty, and only with
>a degree of probability, hence there are no known "laws" of physics and
>chemistry, only known theories.
-
Just how does the patent office get involved in determining the "laws of 
physics" anyhow. Why don't they realize just how absurd their statements
actually are?
TANLOS - There are no laws of science. 
Or to make the paraphrase more obvious -
There ain't no such thing as a law of science. (Or a free lunch)
-
Regards.
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 16:22:16 2000
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Subject: Re: On BLP, Zimmerman, Park, PTO
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Akira,

You have made a fine set of observations.  The silence of Politician Park
speaks loudly.

Footnote 1 of the District Court Memorandum Opinion and Order says "In
plaintiff's [BLP's] motion for summary judgment, plaintiff details that
Director Kepplinger indicated that Commissioner Dickinson had telephoned her
and told her to reevaluate the '294 application after receiving
communications from undisclosed third-party sources complaining about the
'935 patent.  [ . . .] However at the May 22, 2000 motions hearing, for the
purposes of the summary judgment motion, plaintiff's counsel retracted its
argument that the withdrawal of the '294 application was in response to
pressure outside of the PTO. . ."

The USPTO does allow for 3rd parties to offer such views by way of an
authorized procedure.  We know that Park is an ardent critic of CF and
Mills.  If he has a scientific case to make against BLP, he has every right
to put these in the record, where the examiner would weigh them against what
Mills has to offer.  His failure to use the front door can and perhaps ought
to be interpreted to mean that he found other means of exerting himself.

In my opinion, Mills counsel was outfoxed by an invisible network.  Park and
Zimmerman probably did not leave fingerprints, or the ones left were
smudged.  Mills' counsel apparently decided to play the strongest hand, and
not dissipate his energies on things he did not understand well.  He seems
to have forgotten in re Chevron, where the court decided that the government
agencies always get the benefit of the doubt, and then some.  I saw a lawyer
do something similar in a case against a government agency where I was on
the plaintiff's side and had intimate knowledge (having provided some of the
testimony) of the government malfeasance.  The plaintiff's counsel simply
would not do anything that might risk really embarassing the government.
That is the real 'third rail.'

The fact that after so much examination and the interview with Mills, the
best the PTO could offer after this quite unusual "11th hour" withdrawal was
that the claims were "unpatentable."  There are many regulations that can be
cited to specify why.

The PTO is not normally a forum for evaluating scientific validity of the
paradigm-shifting variety.  That is supposed to take place in the
professional journals.  Well, it has, to some small degree.  The debate that
must take place and be recorded in the patent file history is the best case
that Mills can make against established science.  When the examiner makes
his final rejection (as the politics would demand), then Mills must appeal
it again and again.  If Mills does not show some strength in court, BLP
attractiveness as an investment sours.  I expect this will provide suitable
impetus for Mills to get busy facitating the replication efforts of others,
if he can drag himself away from AI.  He can succeed without patents.  The
fact that he has filed and has not abandoned his patent protects his
position.  Inchoate rights (full exclusionary rights) extend from the filing
date if he eventually wins.

Moral:  when shifting paradigms, trust your science over your lawyer.


Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
www.infinite-energy.com  ewall infinite-energy.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akira Kawasaki" <aki ix.netcom.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:27 PM
Subject: On BLP, Zimmerman, Park, PTO


> August 21, 2000
>
> Vortex,
>
> I believe it was in February that news came out that BLP had been
> granted a patent. Since then, four more  were approved for patents to
> the extent of publication, but were withdrawn by the PTO. BLP contested
> the withdrawal and lost the preliminary round against them in favor of
> the PTO.
>
> On April 30, at an APS conference in Long Beach, Zimmerman was scheduled
> to speak about 'Touching the Third Rail' with reference to pseudo
> science and pseudo scientists. The subject covered CF and BLP activities
> among others. And it also was related to Robert Park's continuing effort
> against what he(Park) believed was 'voodoo science'. A book with that
> title did come out later.
>
> However, following BLP's court appeal in court to overturn the Patent
> Office's retraction of the additional patent grants the first patent
> already issued, the April talk subject was canceled. Unknown to Scott
> Chubb (of Talbott and Scott, CF theoreticians) there was a desire to
> record the scheduled talk so I went and recorded Zimmerman's talk which
> was without the 'third rail' subject. Actually, before the conference
> and after the lawsuit by BLP, the APS online Abstract of Zimmerman's
> presentation was deleted.
>
> Anyway Zimmerman and Park are important long standing members of
> the APS political and administrative structure. It can be assumed they
> are 'good buddies'.
>
> Right after BLP was issued the first patent, Park wrote in 'What's New'
> a blast against the PTO's patent issuance, then thereafter fell
> strangely silent on anything to do with CF. Strange because Park
> had been consistent and diligent against CF. Not so strange when
> he became aware that there was a lawsuit on. Why, he did not even
> say anything about the ICCF which he had never failed to do before.
> And now with BLP losing the appeal, Park has come right back in his
> 'What's New' with his voice against CF.
>
> So I think it can be imagined that everything done to cause the Patent
> Office to change their mind was done 'underground' from many channels.
> Perhaps another appeal by BLP and the legal discovery process could
> bring this out. BLP, for their part, had retracted this process in
> their initial appeal, relying mostly on the issue of their timely
> payment of the requisite fees.
>
> On the surface, Zimmerman and Park were critics of BLP and CF and
> had nothing to do with the PTO process of granting patents.
> You would think they were free to  continue to keep on going with
> their criticisms regardless of the BLP lawsuit.
> So why become silent suddenly --- unless they were intimately involved.
>
> The court mentions, in their Finding of Facts, that the PTO Director
> became aware that the BLP applications were against the laws of science.
> It seems the Director did not specify exactly what laws were being
> violated in the patent and patent applications. More likely, the
> Director and/or his advisors are confused about theories being laws.
> Such theories as the Nuclear Theory, the Theory of Quantum Mechanics,
> Theory of Relativity, and others. Replace Theory with the words
> Hypothesis  or Speculation and it becomes clearer that
> they are not Laws of Science.
>
> As a layman, I cannot argue for or against the merits of BLP's effort.
> At least he is applying his own theory to practice. And the efforts
> against it does smell funny.
>
>
> -AK-
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 16:59:51 2000
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:

> As shown in my work, gravity "causes" evaporation, not heat.  Heat
> vaporizes, gravity evaporates.  Heat is static, gravity is dynamic.

---

As _shown_ in your work?

David, "your work" is nothing but opinion.

By your own admission you are not a scientist and yet you expect to bend
the scientific community to your will by spouting platitudes?  

You have no mathematical underpinnings upon which to base your
conclusions, so you are basically a lay person with an idea which he
cannot substantiate.

Moreover, you throw around names of honorable, knowledgeable researchers
which you think will lend credence to your conjectures without really
understanding what they're talking about.

Why don't you stop?

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 18:55:15 2000
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Ahoy!

I've always been interested in this field, and have gone through the Museum
of Science and Industry's computer history exhibit in Chicago.  There really
is something empowering or inspiring about looking at original, very often
crude, handmade prototypes that makes people like me think that with a
little imagination, a few raw materials, and some time, almost anybody can
make something of great importance.

Another set of footnotes in the history of computing that I think you might
find  interesting, and that will never make the history books, include the
idea of interleaving sectors on a hard drive.  A friend of mine came up with
the idea while writing the BEOS for a large computing system that would
control a robotics plant for Siemens in Germany in '84 or '85.  I met the
guy in '81, and he was just a clerk that had just been promoted from the
position of a janitor in a sporting goods store.  Due to the manager of the
sport shop having a small run-in with the local authorities, my friend ended
up as manager, and he hired me as a clerk.  I was a janitor as well, beforehand.

As it turned out this guy had a PhD in Neuropharmacology from Berkeley, and
was something of a computing wizard as well.  In his school daze, he had to
do a large number of rat lab experiments, and the procedure was that they
would give the data to a computer science student, and they would have to
wait a couple of weeks to get the statistical analysis done.  He got tired
of waiting, and knew that a bunch of the computer science students were all
living in a big house off campus, so he moved in with them, and they taught
him how to use the mainframes.

One night during that period (late 60's), the house got a call and an invite
to get down to the computer lab for a "little demonstration".  About 15
people crowded into one of the cubicles to watch a guy type in a small code,
hit the enter key and the screen go blank.  They watched as all the screens
went blank in the lab, including the sysop's who was a senior on work study,
and busy doing his homework.  When the sysop realized what happened, he
raced out to get help, but by that time the entire ARPAnet was down all over
the world.  My friend had memorized the code along with the other people who
had been invited to watch.

Before I met him, my friend went on to write a patient records system for a
large hospital in California, a set of mainframe utilities, and he toured
with the Gratetful Dead for eighteen months while designing their
soundboard, the first to be computer controlled.  They needed it for one
song, China Doll, which had such a huge dynamic range, that the soundboard
techs could never get all the adjustments done in time during the live
performances.

After that, he designed one of IBM's first computer cash registers, before
he decided to bum around Europe for a while as a backpacker.  We had both
actually heard of each other long before we met through a bizarre set of
circumstance meetings of totally unrelated groups of mutual friends in
London, Gdansk, Munich and Athens.  He was working as a courier for the
Magic Bus company, back when it consisted of a bunch of broken down old
school buses.  On of my ex-traveling partners had bumped into him three
times in three different cities, and she told me that we HAD to get together
sometime.  I bumped into him by accident, and he knew who I was before I
figured out who he was by about an hour.

We worked together for about a year before the CEO of the sporting goods
store chain figured out that this guy would be more useful to them at the
main headquarters in Garmish, writing an inventory system for the chain on
their new computer system.  My friend said sure, and moved down there.  He
found out that the computer was hooked into the MILNET system, and was able
to get all of his utility files from Berkeley transferred to him by people
who were still living at that house there, but what he didn't know was that
the computer that he was working on actually was a timeshare that belonged
to the NSA, and within a few months, he got busted for doing something that
he considered to be an innocuous and clever use of the operating system, but
the NSA considered it to be a hack of their security system.  We were all
pretty afraid that he was going to be disappeared, or at least do some time.
After a lengthy inquisition, they let him walk though, and he immediately
got a job with Intel, and then Nixdorf, both in their Munich offices.

He and about 5 German engineers learned about a new Siemens plant that was
being proposed that was supposed to be totally robotic, they formed a
private company, and got the contract to design and build the master
computer for this robotic factory.  He partied way too late one night, and
came in to work unable to actually do anything, so he took apart a disk
drive, wrote a little loop program, and just watched it run.  He put a
little mark on the disk with a magic marker, and just stared at the thing
for about an hour before the idea hit him.  He said that he noticed that the
way the heads were coming down on the plate, that it would read a sector,
and run the data into the buffer, but in the time it took for the buffer to
clear, the head would be past the next sector, and the disk would have to go
all the way around before being over the right place for a consecutive read
again.

This snapped him out of his hangover, and he did some calcs to figure out
exactly how long the buffer was taking to clear, and exactly where the head
would be located at that time.  He wrote a program that physically formatted
the disk in the most logical fashion, and put the code onto an 8 inch floppy
along with a detailed report of how it worked in text format.  The speed
improvement was about 700% on that drive without any hardware improvement or
modification.

He said that he knew that if he put that code into his BEOS right then, that
Siemens would own it, and never let it out, and that it was too good of a
hack to have that happen.  Siemens just wasn't really a computer
manufacturer.  They made toasters and coffeepots.  He stuck the floppy into
a computer magazine, left work early, and went to Garmish, the only place he
knew of that had a computer line to Berkeley.

He knew his replacement at the headquarters of the sporting goods chain
always had lunch at the same place every day, and he was a pretty cool guy,
and so my friend went there, handed him the magazine with the floppy in it,
and the guy e-mailed it as a favor to the Berkeley computer lab people.
Then my friend drove up to my place, and we proceeded to work really hard on
the next day's hangover.  We watched the American computer magazines, and a
month later, Western Digital announced a 400% speed gain on their models,
and in another month, all the hard drive makers were boasting between 400%
to 1000% speed gains on their hard drives.

I don't know if anyone actually claimed credit for idea, but I do know how
it really happened.  Cool, eh?

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 19:11:13 2000
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Hi Mitchell,
   I won't be able to respond to all of your criticisms until I build more of these but at the moment I can tell you that the one I built has three chambers connected by 45' of tubing. It works just fine. I have to stand it all upright and see how that do
es. I know you will say it won't work but I don't know that till I try. I will try to get it done asap and post the humiliating or triumphant results (whichever they may be).
MJ

Mitchell Jones wrote:

>
>
> ***{Incorrect. Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi, and that you need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air pocket, in order to pull the fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost air pocket, and that you need a 1 psi diffe
rence to pull fluid up the standpipe from the leftmost air pocket to the middle air pocket, and a 1 psi difference to pull fluid from the middle pocket to the pocket on the right. Result: the pressure at the pump inlet must be 15 - 1.5 - 1 -1 = 11.5 psi. 
Thus each additional air pocket forces the pump to work harder, or, in your words, "puts additional stress on the system." If you had ten air pockets instead of three, for example, then the pressure at the pump inlet would have to be 15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 ps
i. Thus the pump would have to work *much harder* in that case, than in the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the flow loop. Moreover, since the pressure drops progressively as you move from left to right, it follows that if
> you add enough air pockets in the system, the pressure at the pump inlet will eventually fall to the vapor pressure of the water, and the water in the rightmost air pocket will begin to boil. Result: your pump will begin to suck water vapor instead of w
ater, and you will have reached the absolute physical limit of the system. At that point, if you will add the up the lengths of all the standpipes in your system, you will find that the total comes to about 35 feet--which means: this scheme, conceptually,
 is identical to the first one you proposed, and is subject to the same logical fallacy: the pressure progressively drops in the system, as you move toward the pump inlet, in the same manner as for the original system that you proposed. Result: the more c
olumns of water you raise over that interval, the more the pressure must drop at the pump inlet, and the more work the pump must do. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>      But wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an electrical pump instead of the hand powered one. MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 19:37:09 2000
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That's the spirit.  I can't see how it would work either but science as we 
know it is bogus.  It is based on unproven curved space theory and flat 
space has now been proven.  It is based on a finite universe where eveything 
is thermodynamically set in motion by some fantasy explosion whereby before 
the universe did not exist.  No basis in fact, no proof, nonsensical 
nonsense.  Pure science fiction.

And like I said a two headed beast of propoganda.  One, like in Galileo's 
day the big shots can't allow themselves to be shown wrong in front of 
everyone.  That's why even when Einstein's exact specification of 1.75 was 
not met on gravitational lensing they said close enough.  Einstein evidently 
did not think it was close enough,  He went back to work on the cosmological 
constant and history records he was still working on it till the day he 
died.

The other head of the beast, as long as our science says faster than light 
speed is impossible the gov can always say flying saucers are impossible and 
call folks nuts for seeing them.  Makes the gov appear to be in control of 
the skies when nothing is further from the truth.

Let's see if this latest "real" scientist can meet the challenge and provide 
any whirlpool data.  We have all seen time and time again this challenge has 
never been met.

How long will it take to sink in?  If man has never built a whirlpool before 
in all recorded history then one should be built and tested in a scientific 
manner.

David


>From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Free Energy 3
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:11:34 -0400
>
>Hi Mitchell,
>    I won't be able to respond to all of your criticisms until I build more 
>of these but at the moment I can tell you that the one I built has three 
>chambers connected by 45' of tubing. It works just fine. I have to stand it 
>all upright and see how that does. I know you will say it won't work but I 
>don't know that till I try. I will try to get it done asap and post the 
>humiliating or triumphant results (whichever they may be).
>MJ
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ***{Incorrect. Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi, and that you 
>need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air pocket, 
>in order to pull the fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost air pocket, 
>and that you need a 1 psi difference to pull fluid up the standpipe from 
>the leftmost air pocket to the middle air pocket, and a 1 psi difference to 
>pull fluid from the middle pocket to the pocket on the right. Result: the 
>pressure at the pump inlet must be 15 - 1.5 - 1 -1 = 11.5 psi. Thus each 
>additional air pocket forces the pump to work harder, or, in your words, 
>"puts additional stress on the system." If you had ten air pockets instead 
>of three, for example, then the pressure at the pump inlet would have to be 
>15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 psi. Thus the pump would have to work *much harder* in 
>that case, than in the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the 
>flow loop. Moreover, since the pressure drops progressively as you move 
>from left to right, it follow!
>s that if
> > you add enough air pockets in the system, the pressure at the pump inlet 
>will eventually fall to the vapor pressure of the water, and the water in 
>the rightmost air pocket will begin to boil. Result: your pump will begin 
>to suck water vapor instead of water, and you will have reached the 
>absolute physical limit of the system. At that point, if you will add the 
>up the lengths of all the standpipes in your system, you will find that the 
>total comes to about 35 feet--which means: this scheme, conceptually, is 
>identical to the first one you proposed, and is subject to the same logical 
>fallacy: the pressure progressively drops in the system, as you move toward 
>the pump inlet, in the same manner as for the original system that you 
>proposed. Result: the more columns of water you raise over that interval, 
>the more the pressure must drop at the pump inlet, and the more work the 
>pump must do. --Mitchell Jones}***
> >
> >      But wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an electrical 
>pump instead of the hand powered one. MJ
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 19:41:45 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The "whirlpool" discussion
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A couple of people have mentioned that the ongoing discussion about
"whirlpower" is getting tedious.

Since there are no rules against on-topic threads, there is only one way
to stop a thread on vortex:  simply stop responding.  Discussions here are
self-reinforcing and self-limiting.  If you don't want to talk about
Whirlpower, then don't talk about it, and the thread will evaporate.  If
several people want to keep arguing about it endlessly, then the thread
will never go away. 

If enough people have strong feelings both ways, then I suggest that
someone go create a dedicated Whirlpower list server on the
www.egroups.com free service.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 20:45:11 2000
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Bill,

Very true, but as we see there is great interest in Whirlpower.  Many have 
posted such interest.  And Thomas has come up with concurrance.  No one has 
met my challenge to post any whirlpool data, if they do and can show where a 
whirlpool has ben built before and tested in a scientific manner, the 
Scientific Method will have been upheld.  Until then my Whirlpower 
Declaration stands as valid.

Since the BBC has contaced me an say they are featuring my work in a special 
on amateur scientist your pages on amateur scientist will receive great 
acclaim as a place where the work of amateur scientists is promoted.

And as stated many times here the Whirlpower List at
whirlpower egroups.com is alive and kicking with top vortex experts from 
many countries in agreement.  WE have built the first whirlpools ever built 
by man in all recorded history and more are in planning.  Only those who are 
just deleting my posts would not know of this.

David




>From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: The "whirlpool" discussion
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:40:34 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>A couple of people have mentioned that the ongoing discussion about
>"whirlpower" is getting tedious.
>
>Since there are no rules against on-topic threads, there is only one way
>to stop a thread on vortex:  simply stop responding.  Discussions here are
>self-reinforcing and self-limiting.  If you don't want to talk about
>Whirlpower, then don't talk about it, and the thread will evaporate.  If
>several people want to keep arguing about it endlessly, then the thread
>will never go away.
>
>If enough people have strong feelings both ways, then I suggest that
>someone go create a dedicated Whirlpower list server on the
>www.egroups.com free service.
>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>

________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 20:49:44 2000
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:54:28 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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For those who might still be interested in cold
fusion, I have set up a web site at
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
containing several of my recent publications and
some pictures.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 21 21:15:37 2000
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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:12:46 PDT
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And for those interesed in Whirlpower, my website is;

http://www.whirlpower.cc

There you can see the Whirlpower Declaration, endorsed by PhDs and many 
knowledgeable folks, experts in vortex science.

The BBC will soon air a special, "The Passions of Science", a show about how 
amateur scientists have beaten the "real" scientists to the punch throughout 
history time and time agian.  And will feature my work along with the work 
of eight other amateur scientists who have the "passion" to make a 
difference.

Also Encyclopedia Britannica has said they are in editorial conference 
condsering replacing the current link from the word "whirlpool" that goes to 
"Whirlpool Washers, Dryers, and Refrigerators", with a link that goes to 
http://www.whirlpower.cc

:)

David Dennard

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 07:12:07 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: web site
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Ed:

Your web page pointer is wrong. The address pointed to by the label:

Review of the "Cold Fusion" Effect

. . . is:

http://www.jse.com/storms/1.html


It should be:

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/storms/1.html

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:53:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Free Energy 3
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>Hi Mitchell,
>I won't be able to respond to all of your criticisms until I build more
>of these but at the moment I can tell you that the one I built has three
>chambers connected by 45' of tubing.

***{The critical parameter is not the length of the tubing, but the sum of
the vertical heights of the various sections. In other words, how far do
you have to raise the water in each section of tubing? If you measure those
values and add them up, the largest total you will obtain in a working
system will be about 35 feet. But the most important point here is for you
to *think* about the way these systems work, so that you understand them.
Building something like this is just a diversion from the mental work that
you need to do in order to improve your physical understanding. --MJ}***

>It works just fine. I have to stand it all upright and see how that does.
>I know you will say it won't work but I don't know that till I try.

***{You will if you will think very carefully about the ideas that I
presented to you, and do the calculations. Building more of this kind of
silly stuff is a waste of time. Vast numbers of such devices have been
built already, and tested, and none of them worked. This is just a
garden-variety perpetual motion scheme, based on a misunderstanding of the
physics of fluid flow. --MJ}***

I will try to get it done asap and post the humiliating or
>triumphant results (whichever they may be).
>MJ

***{There is nothing humiliating about being wrong, and proving oneself
right is not a triumph. The main purpose of a group such as this is to
provide a forum where we can test our ideas. The primary benefit of putting
forth our opinions is to see if others can shoot them down. Every time that
happens, we are enabled to learn and grow, if we have the strength to
change our beliefs. That's when the *real* triumph occurs. --MJ}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 08:22:52 2000
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Subject: Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>He has distributed samples of hydrino hydrides to interested parties
>worldwide, including South Africa, according to some reasonably reliable
>information.

And what response did he get? Zippo! Nothing. That tells you there is no
customer demand for hydrino hydrides at this time. Perhaps in a rational
world there would be, but here on Planet Earth there isn't, so he should
stop screwing around with them and distribute energy generating devices
instead. I guarantee there is a demand for prototype energy producing
devices. People call me every week asking for one.


>These are, effective, the 'gadgets' that Jed has so long
>advocated as evidence of a new paradigm.

Evidently they're not effective. As far as I know there has been no effect
on customers.


 Users can make their own tests to
>determine commercial utility.

They can, perhaps, but evidently they do not. Or if they have, I have not
heard about it -- which is quite possible.


>> I don't see any "new opportunities."
>
>A new class of chemicals with remarkable properties does not consist of "new
>opportunities'?

Since there has not been a single dollar's worth of sales, the answer is
no. Strictly from a commercial point of view, these remarkable properties
are not worth squat. Perhaps if the substances were marketed correctly they
would be worth a great deal. In 1837, Morse received a big Federal
government grant and set up a telegraph between Washington, DC and
Baltimore, Maryland. He opened for business to the general public. In the
weeks and months following, he got exactly one penny worth of business. As
far as anyone could tell the telegraph was worthless. Finally, someone
began marketing the thing, that is, telling people about it and
demonstrating its value. Business took off, and within a few years,
millions of dollars in revenue were being made at the telegraph was
considered the second most important invention of the age, after railroads.


>Now Jed, do you think the
>long knives would be going after Mills if he did not pose some threat?

Yes, I do. People like Park, Zimmerman and Taubes are too stupid to realize
that CF is real. They honestly believe it is a fraud, and they think that
is reason enough for them to attack it.


>>The most
>> massive, complex business ventures in history, like the transcontinental
>> railroad, the IBM 360, and the Boeing 747 did not take ten years to
>> commence sales, although they continued to lose money long after the
>> initial product rollout.
>
>All of these were extensions of existing technology, not new developments.
>The comparison is invalid.

Okay, look at sheep cloning and HTSC instead. Years after the breakthroughs
there was no commercial sales, but there were dozens of prototypes, and
widespread industry support. Sheep cloning and HTSC are as technically
challenging as the hydrino work.


>Who said this was a normal business? Jed is counting the time from Mill's
>inspiration to try the Ni-H20 cell to present. Try the time from Tesla's
>inspiration for a polyphase motor to the implementations under Westinghous's
>sponsorship.

If Tesla had had one ounce of business sense, it would not have taken so long.


I am
>> sure the excess heat phenomenon Mills observed years ago with nickel
>> hydrides is the same one observed by so many conventional CF scientists.
>
>How can you be so sure?

Because it is the same experiment!


 Mills has massive date to show the existence of
>hydrinos and hydrino compounds.

It has not been independently replicated or confirmed. I do not understand
enough about mass spectroscopy to know what he is doing, but I've heard
that art is rather difficult and it takes an expert, and there are many
ways to get it wrong. Despite his own opinion Mills is not an expert in
everything, so I suspect he is seeing something other than shrunken
hydrogen. It would be impossible for him to detect the helium with the
class of experiments he was performing in the mid-90s. In any case, the
energy from these experiments can be explained by nuclear reactions, so
even if hydrogen does shrink below the ground state, that is not what
produced the energy in the Mills experiments.


 As you have so often said, one should
>consult the original papers, which have been on BLP's website, before
>announcing conclusions. It should be obvious by now that the FP effect is
>one of a class of LENR or CANR reactions and the BLP reactiosn may be
>another class entirely.

I don't see how they could be, since the use the same materials in the same
conditions. At least they did in 1994.


>If
>> McKubre has helium, so does Mills -- no matter what he says it is or
>thinks
>> he measures.
>
>How can you be so sure?

Because nature works the same way in Palo Alto as New Jersey.


>No one can explain why CF produces commensurate helium without
>> the radiation, but it does, case closed, so we can dismiss Mills and
>> everyone else who does not take into account this helium.
>
>On what basis? This is the same mental closure for which the high energy
>physicists have been reviled.

The high-energy physicists refer to theories. McKubre and I point to data.
There is a huge difference.


>I expect that
>> narrows down the theory candidates, winnowing out Mills along with several
>> others. His theory may be good for many things, but it cannot explain the
>> energy produced by his devices
>
>How can you say this? It isn't just the energy, it's the chemicals as well.
>And he has several catalysis systems, hydrogen-potassium being just one of
>several.

His chemicals may be good for something, and they may even consist of
shrunken hydrogen atoms for all I know, but they do not produce the energy
from his CF-like experiments. Maybe they produce energy in some other
experiments which I have not heard about.


It is also
>clear that the F&P effect is one of many, which need to be explored.

I don't think so. The P&F effect has been widely replicated at high s/n
ratios. All other effects have not been. As far as I am concerned, all
claims by people like Mills, the Correas, the Italian electromigration
gang, and even the Hydrosonic Pump are unproven and therefore wrong. They
are guilty until proven innocent. If Mills wants to be taken seriously, he
could easily assist ten or twenty top laboratories to replicate. I could
arrange it this afternoon. They would replicate the energy producing
effects, and then I along with ten thousand other people would believe
Mills. If the experiment is not difficult (with the correct material in
hand), within a few months millions of people would believe him, and his
troubles with the U.S. Patent Office would vanish. This is a simple,
direct, dirt cheap and risk free method of overcoming his problems. This
method has been used successfully by countless other innovators and
inventors throughout history. If he will not do it, he is either insane or
his claims or bunk, or both. I honestly don't care which it is: crazy is
functionally equivalent to fraudulent, and both conditions are incurable.


> There
>is no way to predict what the commercial path may be . . .

I can predict it! The first viable product to hit the market will win, or
at least it will win for a long time. As in biology, contingency and
incumbency are all important. A suboptimal design, like the IBM PC
architecture, will dominate for decades just because it happens to show up
first.


>That said, it is chauvinistic to assert that the Mills effects are CF or
>pseudo-CF.

Since the experiments were nearly identical in 1994, I do not see how
anyone can assert anything else.


>Mills has continually asserted that his work is hyperchemistry,
>not nuclear physics, and done his best to keep a distance from the CF camp.

His assertions and political machinations mean nothing. Metal hydride is
metal hydride, and everywhere in the universe it produces heat and helium
from nuclear energy.

- Jed

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Since Park's What's New trash was posted on this forum about "cold fusion 
as a religion" -- these clarifications are important.

Gene Mallove
---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date:        8/21/00 8:34 PM
Received:    8/21/00 10:24 PM
From:        Paul LaViolette, Gravitics1 aol.com
To:          Tom  Valone, iri erols.com
CC:          FGLav aol.com
             Eugene  Mallove, editor infinite-energy.com
             Marc  Whitford, marc whitford.com
             schaferr erols.com
             claude.swanson mciworld.com
             panting mindspring.com
             ivank cocom.com
             Hal Fox, halfox uswest.net
             Hal Puthoff, Puthoff aol.com
             oleary maui.net
             explorepub sos.net
             Bailey, Patrick, patrick.bailey lmco.com
             brown fissionfuels.com
             Tom Van Flandern, tvf mindspring.com
             bearden hsv.com
             Tim Crawford, ufocentral earthlink.net

Countering the disinformation that Robert Park has broadcast about Paul 
LaViolette

I would like to address certain lies that Robert Park recently broadcast 
about me on his internet website.  His behavior conforms to his usual 
modus 
operandi of making up slanderous fictions for the purpose of attacking 
people 
who hold ideas he doesn't happen to agree with.  Similar biased attacks 
which 
he launched in his book "Voodoo Science" were recently denounced by 
Washington Post book reviewer Charles Platt.

In his August 18th What's New web posting, Park writes:
3. INFINITE ENERGY: EEOC RULES THAT COLD FUSION IS A RELIGION. 
Paul LaViolette was terminated by the Patent Office on 9 Apr 99. He had 
been
recruited by patent examiner Tom Valone, who issued an e-mail appeal for 
"all
able-bodied free energy technologists" to "infiltrate" the Patent Office 
(Science,
V.284, p.1254, May 99). It was Valone, you will recall, that organized 
the 
much-
traveled Conference on Future Energy (WN 30 Apr 99). Claiming he was fired
because of his belief in cold fusion, LaViolette turned to the Equal 
Employment
Opportunities Office. He argued that his belief in cold fusion amounted 
to a
religious belief. Actually, LaViolette believes in lots of stuff, like 
the 
B-2 bomber
relies on antigravity technology (WN 20 Nov 98). Anyway, on 7 July the 
EEOC
ruled that cold fusion is indeed protected religious belief. This appears 
to
confirm what many have been saying all along. 

There are some major errors in Park's proclamations:

1) Contrary to Park's claim, I was not recruited by Tom Valone to my job 
at 
the Patent Office.  This is the second time Park has made this false 
statement in his internet news column, and Science magazine also repeated 
this lie, even claiming that I had confirmed its validity!  It is time 
that I 
set the record straight.  In 1997 Tom indeed had sent out letters 
informing 
"all able-bodied free energy technologists" that the Patent Office was 
actively hiring people and urged them  to take advantage of this to 
"infiltrate the Patent Office" (tongue in cheek).  However, I never 
received 
or saw that letter.  In May 1998 Tom did call me, but that was to ask me 
for 
a copy of my book Earth Under Fire.  After discussing that matter of 
business, I proceeded to tell him how I had been busily looking for work 
further south since jobs were then scarce in my hometown of Schenectady.  
Tom 
told me of the job opportunity in Washington at the Patent Office.  He 
did 
not suggest to me that I "infiltrate" the Patent Office.  Conspiracy 
theorists often try to twist facts to suit their theory.  Perhaps Park 
will 
be dismayed to find that actually I did not apply for the job with the 
intention of changing the Patent Office's antiquated views on energy 
technology or for any other "subversive" reason.  My interest was simply 
to 
earn a descent living.  Is this not what the "American Dream" is all 
about?

2) Further on Park makes another major error in reporting the facts.  
Various 
events that had transpired at the Patent Office, indeed had spurred me to 
file a complaint with the Department of Commerce, Office of Civil Rights 
contending that I had been dismissed from my job because of my personal 
scientific beliefs (not just because of my belief in the validity of cold 
fusion research).  However, contrary to what Park claims, I did not argue 
that my belief in cold fusion amounted to a religious belief.  I argued 
that 
discrimination against a person on account of his beliefs is the essence 
of 
discrimination on the basis of religion.  I maintained, therefore, that 
my 
scientific beliefs--which includes many beliefs currently held and taught 
in 
academic institutions, as well as my belief in the validity of cold 
fusion--are protected against discrimination.  Just as the Equal 
Employment 
Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has ruled, a person can consider their 
scientific beliefs as religious and therefore be protected against 
discrimination on the basis of their beliefs.  For legal purposes I will 
not 
go into details at this point on the matter of why I consider my 
scientific 
beliefs as being of a religious nature.  Nevertheless, I would like to 
make 
clear for anybody that might have misconstrued Park's taunts, that my 
particular scientific beliefs are based on observation  At any time I am 
prepared to modify these beliefs based on available evidence.  They are 
not 
doctrinaire, nor are they set in stone as the term "religious belief" 
might 
imply to some people.  

Actually, Robert Park's own views and beliefs on science and technology 
might 
more aptly fit the description of the doctrinaire variety of religious 
belief.  For he has shown himself to be a person who attacks and makes 
fun of 
other people whose opinions do not agree with his own.  His approach 
appears 
more to be a public venting of emotion rather than the kind of reasoned 
unbiassed discourse that is familiar to science.

Sincerely yours,
Paul A. LaViolette, Ph.D.


----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 08:35:34 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: On BLP, Zimmerman, Park, PTO
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>On the surface, Zimmerman and Park were critics of BLP and CF and
>had nothing to do with the PTO process of granting patents. 
>You would think they were free to  continue to keep on going with 
>their criticisms regardless of the BLP lawsuit. 
>So why become silent suddenly --- unless they were intimately involved.

There is no mystery here. I do not know much about the law, but when Mills
filed suit against Zimmerman and Park, I am sure their lawyers and bosses
instructed them to shut up. I think any lawyer would, based on my limited
experience with minor business lawsuits. Zimmerman also broke the Federal
Civil Service regulations when he made public statements at the APS and
elsewhere which led to the dismissal of Valone. He is in trouble for
interfering with Valone's right to free speech in forums outside the
Federal workplace. That is regardless of the merits of Zimmerman's
scientific critique.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 09:01:49 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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You guys do show cult tendicies.  You sure don't show any interest in the 
new energy work of others.  You show an I'm better than anyone else 
attitude.  It looks like a religion cult except there is not a God at the 
throne just some kind of mystical scientific power, that no one can seem to 
prove or disprove.  And that is a lot like a God, very mystical.

Your aim does not appear to be that of finding new clean infinite energy, 
only in self promotion.  Even though there has been extensive Scientific 
Method testing the results have not concured energy.  I have explained to 
you what you saw, it was bubbles, and bubbles are gravity driven.  You found 
the cosmological constant.  You just don't know what you found, and you are 
all too full of yourselves to listen to me.  You all think you are hot 
shots.  I don't know all the details but I have heard there was hypnotizm 
going in some kind of group related to cold fusion by that Rama dude.  If 
this is the case you were apparently all hornswoggled, hypnotized, and had 
your pockets picked, not to mention your brians.  That guy was a hypnotist, 
playing God, has happened over and over and over again, since the Pharoahs.  
Ever heard of Jim Jones?  You guys are lucky you are not in Davey Jones 
Locker with Mister Rama.

David




>From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Fwd: Countering the disinformation
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:23:52 -0400
>
>Since Park's What's New trash was posted on this forum about "cold fusion
>as a religion" -- these clarifications are important.
>
>Gene Mallove
>---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
>Date:        8/21/00 8:34 PM
>Received:    8/21/00 10:24 PM
>From:        Paul LaViolette, Gravitics1 aol.com
>To:          Tom  Valone, iri erols.com
>CC:          FGLav aol.com
>              Eugene  Mallove, editor infinite-energy.com
>              Marc  Whitford, marc whitford.com
>              schaferr erols.com
>              claude.swanson mciworld.com
>              panting mindspring.com
>              ivank cocom.com
>              Hal Fox, halfox uswest.net
>              Hal Puthoff, Puthoff aol.com
>              oleary maui.net
>              explorepub sos.net
>              Bailey, Patrick, patrick.bailey lmco.com
>              brown fissionfuels.com
>              Tom Van Flandern, tvf mindspring.com
>              bearden hsv.com
>              Tim Crawford, ufocentral earthlink.net
>
>Countering the disinformation that Robert Park has broadcast about Paul
>LaViolette
>
>I would like to address certain lies that Robert Park recently broadcast
>about me on his internet website.  His behavior conforms to his usual
>modus
>operandi of making up slanderous fictions for the purpose of attacking
>people
>who hold ideas he doesn't happen to agree with.  Similar biased attacks
>which
>he launched in his book "Voodoo Science" were recently denounced by
>Washington Post book reviewer Charles Platt.
>
>In his August 18th What's New web posting, Park writes:
>3. INFINITE ENERGY: EEOC RULES THAT COLD FUSION IS A RELIGION.
>Paul LaViolette was terminated by the Patent Office on 9 Apr 99. He had
>been
>recruited by patent examiner Tom Valone, who issued an e-mail appeal for
>"all
>able-bodied free energy technologists" to "infiltrate" the Patent Office
>(Science,
>V.284, p.1254, May 99). It was Valone, you will recall, that organized
>the
>much-
>traveled Conference on Future Energy (WN 30 Apr 99). Claiming he was fired
>because of his belief in cold fusion, LaViolette turned to the Equal
>Employment
>Opportunities Office. He argued that his belief in cold fusion amounted
>to a
>religious belief. Actually, LaViolette believes in lots of stuff, like
>the
>B-2 bomber
>relies on antigravity technology (WN 20 Nov 98). Anyway, on 7 July the
>EEOC
>ruled that cold fusion is indeed protected religious belief. This appears
>to
>confirm what many have been saying all along.
>
>There are some major errors in Park's proclamations:
>
>1) Contrary to Park's claim, I was not recruited by Tom Valone to my job
>at
>the Patent Office.  This is the second time Park has made this false
>statement in his internet news column, and Science magazine also repeated
>this lie, even claiming that I had confirmed its validity!  It is time
>that I
>set the record straight.  In 1997 Tom indeed had sent out letters
>informing
>"all able-bodied free energy technologists" that the Patent Office was
>actively hiring people and urged them  to take advantage of this to
>"infiltrate the Patent Office" (tongue in cheek).  However, I never
>received
>or saw that letter.  In May 1998 Tom did call me, but that was to ask me
>for
>a copy of my book Earth Under Fire.  After discussing that matter of
>business, I proceeded to tell him how I had been busily looking for work
>further south since jobs were then scarce in my hometown of Schenectady.
>Tom
>told me of the job opportunity in Washington at the Patent Office.  He
>did
>not suggest to me that I "infiltrate" the Patent Office.  Conspiracy
>theorists often try to twist facts to suit their theory.  Perhaps Park
>will
>be dismayed to find that actually I did not apply for the job with the
>intention of changing the Patent Office's antiquated views on energy
>technology or for any other "subversive" reason.  My interest was simply
>to
>earn a descent living.  Is this not what the "American Dream" is all
>about?
>
>2) Further on Park makes another major error in reporting the facts.
>Various
>events that had transpired at the Patent Office, indeed had spurred me to
>file a complaint with the Department of Commerce, Office of Civil Rights
>contending that I had been dismissed from my job because of my personal
>scientific beliefs (not just because of my belief in the validity of cold
>fusion research).  However, contrary to what Park claims, I did not argue
>that my belief in cold fusion amounted to a religious belief.  I argued
>that
>discrimination against a person on account of his beliefs is the essence
>of
>discrimination on the basis of religion.  I maintained, therefore, that
>my
>scientific beliefs--which includes many beliefs currently held and taught
>in
>academic institutions, as well as my belief in the validity of cold
>fusion--are protected against discrimination.  Just as the Equal
>Employment
>Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has ruled, a person can consider their
>scientific beliefs as religious and therefore be protected against
>discrimination on the basis of their beliefs.  For legal purposes I will
>not
>go into details at this point on the matter of why I consider my
>scientific
>beliefs as being of a religious nature.  Nevertheless, I would like to
>make
>clear for anybody that might have misconstrued Park's taunts, that my
>particular scientific beliefs are based on observation  At any time I am
>prepared to modify these beliefs based on available evidence.  They are
>not
>doctrinaire, nor are they set in stone as the term "religious belief"
>might
>imply to some people.
>
>Actually, Robert Park's own views and beliefs on science and technology
>might
>more aptly fit the description of the doctrinaire variety of religious
>belief.  For he has shown himself to be a person who attacks and makes
>fun of
>other people whose opinions do not agree with his own.  His approach
>appears
>more to be a public venting of emotion rather than the kind of reasoned
>unbiassed discourse that is familiar to science.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>Paul A. LaViolette, Ph.D.
>
>
>----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 12:26:05 2000
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Subject: Free Energy in switzerland .... Your comments please....
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Hi,

Free energy tested and prooved in Zwitserland.
Some very interesting literture and products. I think that I shall take an
appointment
at QRM to see this equipment by myself. (It is not too far; I am living in
Belgium)

All your comments are welcome.......


http://www.rqm.ch/
http://www.rqm.ch/eng/tech-inf.htm


Robert HOFFMANN

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 15:05:57 2000
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August 22, 2,000

Jed Rothwell wrote:

>There is no mystery here. I do not know much about the law, but when Mills
>filed suit against Zimmerman and Park, I am sure their lawyers and bosses
>instructed them to shut up. I think any lawyer would, based on my
>limited experience with minor business lawsuits.

I did not know that BLP actually did institute a lawsuit against Zimmerman and
Park --- together or separately? I have heard there were warnings of suits if
slanderous comments were publicized, Then, what was BLP's complaint against
them? Did the suit end simultaneous with the court deciding in favor of the
PTO's withdrawal of the patent issuance? Your contention about their lawyers
advice to shut up does not make sense if you consider that BLP's complaint is
far from over. And here you have Park coming on with a new article about BLP
right after their initial loss.
I have asked BLP if they actually did start a lawsuit against Zimmerman and.or
Park.  I do not know if they will bother answering.

>Zimmerman also broke the Federal Civil Service regulations when he
>made public statements at the APS and elsewhere which led to the
>dismissal of Valone. He is in trouble for interfering with Valone's right
>to free speech in forums outside the Federal workplace. That is regardless
>of the merits of Zimmerman's scientific critique.

You mean Valone has the right to free speech outside the Federal workplace and
Zimmerman does not when he does the same at the APS and elsewhere? APS is not
a federal agency and although Zimmerman may have a federal job, I am sure it
was not in that capacity that he was making remarks harmful to Valone. It may
have come across like that though. At least, he made that point clear at the
Long Beach APS when he declared his cancellation of the "Touching the Third
Rail" presentation.  He did not want his 'daytime job', perhaps on advice, to
be dragged into controversy. No mention of suits were given. Your position
would be more secure if Zimmerman used a federal department letterhead in his
transmittals about Valone. I can stand to be corrected, anytime.

-AK-


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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:20:01 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: On BLP, Zimmerman, Park, PTO
In-Reply-To: <39A2FA79.BA04BF4 ix.netcom.com>
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>I did not know that BLP actually did institute a lawsuit against Zimmerman
and
>Park --- together or separately? I have heard there were warnings of suits if
>slanderous comments were publicized . . .

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. I am not sure if suits were filed or only
threatened, but either way, I expect a lawyer would tell Z&P to shut up for
the time being.


>You mean Valone has the right to free speech outside the Federal workplace
and
>Zimmerman does not when he does the same at the APS and elsewhere?

I only spoke briefly with the attorney, but my understanding is that the
legal action is in regard to Zimmerman's official actions as a govenment
official. If he spoke outside the government and made a disclaimer (as
Valone did), or if he had taken no actions and made no recommendations
within the government, there would be no complaint against him. I think he
must have known that, which is why he covered up his badge and refused to
give me his name at the APS. Essentially, during his APS presentation, he
bragged about actions which are in violation of the civil service rules.


>APS is not
>a federal agency and although Zimmerman may have a federal job, I am sure it
>was not in that capacity that he was making remarks harmful to Valone.

He is not a target because of his remarks, but because of his actions
within the government taken in his official capacity, albeit in another
Department over which he has no authority. The APS remarks are evidence.


>Your position
>would be more secure if Zimmerman used a federal department letterhead in his
>transmittals about Valone.

It is not my position; it is the position of the prosecuting attorneys.
They may have a document on letterhead for all I know; I have not seen the
evidence, except for the APS tape, which they requested from me. But I
doubt Zimmerman would be foolish enough to leave "smoking gun" evidence
like a document or a phone log. He seems to know how to play the game.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 15:52:24 2000
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Robert writes:
>Hi,
>
>Free energy tested and prooved in Zwitserland.
>Some very interesting literture and products. I think that I shall take an
>appointment
>at QRM to see this equipment by myself. (It is not too far; I am living in
>Belgium)
>
>All your comments are welcome.......
>
>
>http://www.rqm.ch/
>http://www.rqm.ch/eng/tech-inf.htm
>
>
>Robert HOFFMANN

Ahoy there,

I looked at their page some years back, when it consisted of mainly a splash
page, and a business prospective.  There were a few photos then, but very
little in the way of an explanation that I could follow, as to how their
device worked.  At that time, I would not have recommended a visit simply
because the they appeared to be too closed and proprietary to allow any
usable information to be demonstrated. Since that time however, their
website has improved quite a lot, giving much more detail about the
supporting physics, and my understanding of the physics has increased to a
degree, as well.

It now looks as if they are on the same line of research as many other
people, and are claiming to have solved some of the problems with their
design that they had earlier.  The underlying physics or operating
principles behind their design has been replicated now so many times, by so
many people using differing approaches that it no longer presents nearly as
much of a mystery as it did before.  Their website is one of the most
coherent and easy-to-understand presentations of the scalar and longitudinal
wave based energy systems that I have seen to date.  I thank you for giving
me the nudge to go have another look at it.

Obviously, these are intelligent, professional scientists and engineers who
have designed and performed rigorous tests and identified many of the key
mathmatical factors necessary to improve their own technology as well as the
technologies of some of the others who are working in this field.  If I had
the opportunity to visit with them, I would take it and probably learn a
lot.  As it is, I am very happy with what they have done just on the web.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 15:53:07 2000
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: test
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test
NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 16:26:56 2000
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> You guys do show cult tendicies.  You sure don't show any interest in the
> new energy work of others.  You show an I'm better than anyone else
> attitude.  It looks like a religion cult except there is not a God at the
> throne just some kind of mystical scientific power, that no one can seem to
> prove or disprove.  And that is a lot like a God, very mystical.
> 
> Your aim does not appear to be that of finding new clean infinite energy,
> only in self promotion.  Even though there has been extensive Scientific
> Method testing the results have not concured energy.  I have explained to
> you what you saw, it was bubbles, and bubbles are gravity driven.  You found
> the cosmological constant.  You just don't know what you found, and you are
> all too full of yourselves to listen to me.  You all think you are hot
> shots.  I don't know all the details but I have heard there was hypnotizm
> going in some kind of group related to cold fusion by that Rama dude.  If
> this is the case you were apparently all hornswoggled, hypnotized, and had
> your pockets picked, not to mention your brians.  That guy was a hypnotist,
> playing God, has happened over and over and over again, since the Pharoahs.
> Ever heard of Jim Jones?  You guys are lucky you are not in Davey Jones
> Locker with Mister Rama.

---

David, why should _anyone_ listen to you?

You can't spell worth a damn, your command of the language is atrocious,
your logic is perverted, your rhetoric is annoying, you don't seem to
have a clue about mathematics of any kind, yet (from your judgemental
statements) you want to be considered to be in the same league as
Einstein and Puthoff. 

You're a loser.  Face up to it.

Anyone can put up a web site full of opinions backed up by no factual
data.

Anyone can rail about the injustice of mainline science.

Anyone can bitch about how unfair life is.

The trick is to turn it around and win, but no, you'd rather sit around
and grouse about:
 
 1. That you have no money
 2. That you have a disability of some kind which keeps you from doing
more, blah blah blah.
 3. That others are stealing minds which should rightfully have been
yours.

With my limited command of the language it's really difficult for me to
express the contempt I feel for you, but make no mistake,  I think
you're an ignorant charlatan who is afraid to wear no clothes.

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 16:35:51 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Ross writes:
>test
>NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

Hi again Ross!

I was sitting here in the nude reading aimlessly the other day in my
cardboard box while munching on a cracker, as I do for a living now just to
wind up the locals here and in Georgia, and I ran across this really great URL:

http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/weekly/aa061500a.htm

which described an invention for making luminescent bubbles that respond to
UV and infrared light - bubbles that would glow in the dark or Black Light
Bubbles, as it were.  As you may recall, I asked if you knew of any methods
of testing for cavitation efficiency in a given cavitation system, and this
looks like it may be something useful. Not only would measuring the light
output give you a good idea of how much cavitation was occurring, but
equally as important, it would show you exactly where in the system
cavitation was occurring without any need for expensive Schlieren imaging.
I looked up the patent, and there are numerous other patents for chemicals
of this nature.  Hope this helps.

Can't wait to get my virtual, visual conferencing equipment.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Knuke wrote:
> I was sitting here in the nude reading aimlessly the other day in my
> cardboard box while munching on a cracker, as I do for a 
> living now just to
> wind up the locals here and in Georgia
...
>Can't wait to get my virtual, visual conferencing equipment.

I think you should hold off on the videoconferencing if that's how you plan
to dress.

Aghast,

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 17:01:11 2000
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At 6:22 PM -0500 8/22/00, John Fields wrote:

>David, why should _anyone_ listen to you?

<rant snipped>

Please, no more here. Take it to B or meail if you please.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 17:38:05 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> At 6:22 PM -0500 8/22/00, John Fields wrote:
> 
> >David, why should _anyone_ listen to you?
> 
> <rant snipped>
> 
> Please, no more here. Take it to B or meail if you please.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI


---

If someone makes a totally ridiculous statement here should it not be
contested here?

Of course Bill is the final authority, and if he says to move on I will.

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 17:43:19 2000
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Subject: The Challenge Still Unmet
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:42:27 PDT
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For those who have actually read my messages over the past few weeks 
expecially the past couple of months can confirm, the Challenge is still 
unmet.

However the personal attacks still linger.

Thomas Malloy has made a very good observation and asked plainly about the 
wobble but even he is being ignored.

Robin made some great comments.  Some of the best on the list.  WE see those 
admittedly and obviously that are not even reading what I say trying to 
dictate the conversation.  How much weirder can it get?

If anyone here really wants to shut me up, show me some data where a 
whirlpool has been built and tested in a scientific manner. (not to be 
cofused with a tirnado type vortex)  If you can't do it and you don't have 
the common sense to wonder why on Earth there is a known event in nature 
that no one can post any data on, then I must question what is wrong with 
you folks.  Is your hate of me so strong it blinds you to all else?  Why 
would this be?  You know history shows us this kind of hate, when Galileo 
was imprisoned for the last half of his life because he would not shut up.  
He was embarrassing the big shots.

And it relates to the same thing, better telescope vision.  My work is based 
on the new data coming in from the Hubble, Chandra, and Rossi.  No, I don't 
always tyep every word correctly, no I am not a "real" scientist.  That just 
means I did not have the clutter to clear out, nor do I have to answer to 
established ways of thinking.  It is easy for me to see it.  I saw it 
coming.

He come groovin up slowly
He got bad production
He got early warning
He one Holy Roller

Got to be a Joker he just do what he please

David Dennard
The Wild Card
http://www.whirlpower.cc

Come together





________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 22:19:45 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:33:59 -0400
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thank you.  You don't see how which part won't work?
MJ

David Dennard wrote:
> 
> That's the spirit.  I can't see how it would work either but science as we
> know it is bogus.  It is based on unproven curved space theory and flat
> space has now been proven.  It is based on a finite universe where eveything
> is thermodynamically set in motion by some fantasy explosion whereby before
> the universe did not exist.  No basis in fact, no proof, nonsensical
> nonsense.  Pure science fiction.
> 
> And like I said a two headed beast of propoganda.  One, like in Galileo's
> day the big shots can't allow themselves to be shown wrong in front of
> everyone.  That's why even when Einstein's exact specification of 1.75 was
> not met on gravitational lensing they said close enough.  Einstein evidently
> did not think it was close enough,  He went back to work on the cosmological
> constant and history records he was still working on it till the day he
> died.
> 
> The other head of the beast, as long as our science says faster than light
> speed is impossible the gov can always say flying saucers are impossible and
> call folks nuts for seeing them.  Makes the gov appear to be in control of
> the skies when nothing is further from the truth.
> 
> Let's see if this latest "real" scientist can meet the challenge and provide
> any whirlpool data.  We have all seen time and time again this challenge has
> never been met.
> 
> How long will it take to sink in?  If man has never built a whirlpool before
> in all recorded history then one should be built and tested in a scientific
> manner.
> 
> David
> 
> >From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Free Energy 3
> >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:11:34 -0400
> >
> >Hi Mitchell,
> >    I won't be able to respond to all of your criticisms until I build more
> >of these but at the moment I can tell you that the one I built has three
> >chambers connected by 45' of tubing. It works just fine. I have to stand it
> >all upright and see how that does. I know you will say it won't work but I
> >don't know that till I try. I will try to get it done asap and post the
> >humiliating or triumphant results (whichever they may be).
> >MJ
> >
> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***{Incorrect. Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi, and that you
> >need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air pocket,
> >in order to pull the fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost air pocket,
> >and that you need a 1 psi difference to pull fluid up the standpipe from
> >the leftmost air pocket to the middle air pocket, and a 1 psi difference to
> >pull fluid from the middle pocket to the pocket on the right. Result: the
> >pressure at the pump inlet must be 15 - 1.5 - 1 -1 = 11.5 psi. Thus each
> >additional air pocket forces the pump to work harder, or, in your words,
> >"puts additional stress on the system." If you had ten air pockets instead
> >of three, for example, then the pressure at the pump inlet would have to be
> >15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 psi. Thus the pump would have to work *much harder* in
> >that case, than in the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the
> >flow loop. Moreover, since the pressure drops progressively as you move
> >from left to right, it follow!
> >s that if
> > > you add enough air pockets in the system, the pressure at the pump inlet
> >will eventually fall to the vapor pressure of the water, and the water in
> >the rightmost air pocket will begin to boil. Result: your pump will begin
> >to suck water vapor instead of water, and you will have reached the
> >absolute physical limit of the system. At that point, if you will add the
> >up the lengths of all the standpipes in your system, you will find that the
> >total comes to about 35 feet--which means: this scheme, conceptually, is
> >identical to the first one you proposed, and is subject to the same logical
> >fallacy: the pressure progressively drops in the system, as you move toward
> >the pump inlet, in the same manner as for the original system that you
> >proposed. Result: the more columns of water you raise over that interval,
> >the more the pressure must drop at the pump inlet, and the more work the
> >pump must do. --Mitchell Jones}***
> > >
> > >      But wait, there's more. At this point let's imagine an electrical
> >pump instead of the hand powered one. MJ
> >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 22 22:23:02 2000
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Subject: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part I
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THE FOLLOWING IS INFORMATION RELATING TO JOSEPH NEWMAN'S PIONEERING ENERGY
MACHINE TECHNOLOGY:

GENERAL DESCRIPTION:

In essence this technology represents an electromechanical energy
conversion machine and a method of electromagnetically converting
electrical energy to mechanical energy and electrical energy. The machine
comprises a stator; a rotor; a direct current power source; a commutator,
and flourescent lamps acting as a non-linear, capacitive, voltage-limiting
load. Four armature coils of a first magnetic polarity are concentrically
mounted on a first side of the outer surface of a non-magnetic cylindrical
stator casing, and four armature coils of an opposite polarity are
concentrically mounted on an opposite side of the stator casing. Each coil
is wound with an average of 6,650 turns of 34 AWG gauge teflon-coated wire.
The rotor is constructed of non-magnetic material, and is rotationally
mounted in the stator casing. A plurality of neodymium iron-boron permanent
magnets are circumferentially mounted on the rotor. The magnets on a first
side of the rotor are mounted with a first outward polarity, and the
magnets on an opposite side of the rotor are mounted with an opposite
outward polarity. The power source is connected to the coils and produces
an output of 0-5,000 volts at 30 to 40 milliamperes maximum. The
flourescent lamps are connected to the coils for rapidly dumping magnetic
energy from the coils when the polarity is reversed. The commutator
reverses the polarity of the first and second coils every 180° of rotor
rotation, and guides the magnetic energy from the coils to the load.

DETAILED DESCRIPTION:

Examples of the technology include an energy machine comprising: a stator
consisting of a first coil of a first magnetic polarity mounted on a first
side of the stator and a second coil of an opposite polarity mounted on an
opposite side of the stator; a rotor rotationally mounted in the stator,
the rotor including at least two permanent magnets mounted
circumferentially thereon, a first magnet on a first side of the rotor
having a first outward polarity and a second magnet on an opposite side of
the rotor having an outward polarity opposite the first polarity; a direct
current power source connected to the coils, the output of the power source
being at least 450 volts in a range of 30 to 40 milliamperes;  a switching
device that reverses the polarity of the first and second coils every 180°
of rotor rotation; and a non-linear, capacitive, voltage-limiting load
connected to the coils for rapidly dumping magnetic energy from the coils
when the switching device reverses the polarity of the first and second
coils.

The energy machine features a switching device which is a commutator that
includes a means for guiding the magnetic energy from the coils to the
non-linear, capacitive, voltage-limiting load. The first coil comprises
four individual coils of the first polarity, and the second coil comprises
four individual coils of the opposite polarity.  In one particular example
of the technology, each individual coil comprises at least 6,000 turns of
approximately 34 AWG gauge teflon-coated wire.  The stator includes a
cylindrical stator casing constructed entirely of non-magnetic material
with the stator casing having an inner surface and an outer surface, and
the first and second coils being mounted on the outer surface of the stator
casing.  The four individual coils of the first polarity are similar
rectangular coils concentrically mounted on the first side of the stator
casing, and the four individual coils of the opposite polarity are similar
rectangular coils concentrically mounted on the opposite side of the stator
casing.  The rotor is constructed of a non-magnetic material.

There are at least two permanent magnets that comprise two groups of
magnets: a first group on a first side of the rotor in which each magnet
has a first outward polarity; and a second group on an opposite side of the
rotor in which each magnet has an outward polarity opposite the first
polarity. Each of the plurality of permanent magnets has an outer surface,
and the rotor has a diameter such that a total distance measured between
the outer surface of any one of the permanent magnets and a coil directly
overlying the magnet is approximately 0.4 inches. The permanent magnets are
grade 35 neodymium iron-boron magnets.

Additionally, the energy machine consists of a stator comprising a first
coil of a first magnetic polarity mounted on a first side of the stator and
a second coil of an opposite polarity mounted on an opposite side of the
stator; a rotor rotationally mounted in the stator, the rotor includes at
least two permanent magnets mounted circumferentially thereon, a first
magnet on a first side of the rotor having a first outward polarity, and a
second magnet on an opposite side of the rotor having an outward polarity
opposite the first polarity; a direct current power source connected to the
coils, the output of the power source being at least 450 volts in a range
of 30 to 40 milliamperes; the power source comprises a regulated,
voltage-controlled voltage multiplier, a wet cell connected in series with
the voltage multiplier, and a switching device that reverses the polarity
of the first and second coils every 180° of rotor rotation.

Also, the energy machine consists of a stator comprising a first coil of a
first magnetic polarity mounted on a first side of the stator and a second
coil of an opposite polarity mounted on an opposite side of the stator; a
rotor rotationally mounted in the stator, the rotor includes at least two
permanent magnets mounted circumferentially thereon, a first magnet on a
first side of the rotor having a first outward polarity, and a second
magnet on an opposite side of the rotor having an outward polarity opposite
the first polarity;  a direct current power source connected to the coils,
the output of the power source being at least 450 volts in a range of 30 to
40 milliamperes, the power source comprises a bank of batteries connected
in series to produce at least 450 volts at 30 to 40 milliamperes, a wet
cell connected in series with the bank of batteries, and a switching device
that reverses the polarity of the first and second coils every 180° of
rotor rotation.

Also, the energy machine consists of a stator comprising: a cylindrical
stator casing constructed of non-magnetic material, the stator casing
having an inner surface and an outer surface; a first armature coil of a
first magnetic polarity comprising four similar rectangular coils
concentrically mounted on a first side of the outer surface of the stator
casing, each rectangular coil comprising at least 6,000 turns of
approximately 34 AWG gauge teflon-coated wire; and a second armature coil
of a polarity opposite the first polarity comprising four similar
rectangular coils concentrically mounted on a side of the outer surface of
the stator casing opposite the first side, each rectangular coil comprising
at least 6,000 turns of approximately 34 AWG gauge teflon-coated wire; a
rotor constructed of non-magnetic material rotationally mounted in the
stator casing, the rotor including a plurality of permanent magnets mounted
circumferentially thereon; the magnets on a first side of the rotor have a
first outward polarity, and the magnets on an opposite side of the rotor
have an opposite outward polarity. Each of the plurality of permanent
magnets have an outer surface, and the rotor has a diameter such that a
total distance measured between the outer surface of any one of the
permanent magnets and a coil directly overlying the magnet is approximately
0.4 inches. There is a direct current power source connected to the coils
with the power source comprising a regulated, voltage-controlled voltage
multiplier with an output of 0-5,000 volts at 40 milliamperes maximum; a
wet cell connected in series with the voltage multiplier; a non-linear,
capacitive, voltage-limiting load connected to the coils for rapidly
dumping magnetic energy from the coils; a commutator consisting of a means
for reversing the polarity of the first and second coils every 180° of
rotor rotation; and a means for guiding the magnetic energy from the coils
to the non-linear, capacitive, voltage-limiting load prior to reversal of
the polarity.

There is a non-magnetic cylindrical stator casing that has an outer surface
and an inner surface. There are a plurality of armature coils mounted on
the outer surface of the stator casing with the armature coils comprising
at least one coil of a first magnetic polarity on a first side of the
stator casing and at least one coil of an opposite polarity on an opposite
side of the stator casing. The armature coils produce a magnetic field
which is not shielded by the stator casing. A rotor is rotationally mounted
along the longitudinal axis of the cylindrical stator casing and the rotor
has a plurality of permanent magnets mounted circumferentially thereon. The
magnets on a first side of the rotor have a first outward polarity, and the
magnets on an opposite side of the rotor have an outward polarity opposite
the first outward polarity.  A direct current power source is connected to
the coils with the output of the power source being variable from 0 to
5,000 volts at a maximum current of approximately 40 milliamperes.
Moreover, a non-linear, capacitive, voltage-limiting load is connected to
the coils for rapidly dumping magnetic energy from the coils, and a
commutator operates to reverse the polarities of the armature coils in a
manner so as to rotate the rotor.

Each of the plurality of permanent magnets in the energy machine has an
outer surface and a total distance measured between the outer surface of
any one of the permanent magnets and a coil directly overlying the magnet
is approximately 0.4 inches. The armature coil comprises four coils of the
first polarity and four coils of the second polarity. Each coil of the
first polarity and each coil of the second polarity is wound with at least
6,000 turns of wire which is approximately 34 AWG gauge. The plurality of
permanent magnets are grade 35 neodymium iron-boron magnets. The direct
current power source comprises a regulated, voltage-controlled voltage
multiplier and a wet cell connected in series with the voltage multiplier.

ADDITIONAL DESCRIPTION OF ENERGY MACHINE PROTOTYPES:

The vital link between the electrical and mechanical energy systems of an
electric motor/generator is the magnetic field. The magnetic field can be
produced by a system of permanent magnets, by a system of electrically
energized coils, or by a combination of the above. According to Faraday's
law, the voltage induced in a coil of wire by a changing magnetic flux is
determined by the equation:

e = -dN.PHI./dt = -d.lambda./dt

where N is the number of coil turns, .PHI. is the magnetic flux (webers),
and .lambda.=N.PHI. is the coil flux linkage. Thus, the voltage induced in
the coil equals the number of coil turns times the time rate of change of
the flux linking the coils, and its polarity is opposite of the flux
gradient. Stated another way, the voltage induced in a coil of wire equals
the time rate of change of flux linkages, and its polarity is opposite of
the flux gradient. This induced voltage regulates the power drawn from (or
supplied to) the electrical energy source connected to the motor-generator.


The magnetic field (represented by (.PHI. or .lambda.) induces this dynamic
voltage and also develops the mechanical output torque. In the present
invention, the non-constant, non-sinusoidal, near-exponential time rate of
change of flux linkages develops a COUNTER ELECTROMOTIVE FORCE (emf) or
COUNTER VOLTAGE which SPIKES at the POINT OF COMMUTATION. This counter
voltage, when integrated over time, produces a NET POSITIVE GENERATED
VOLTAGE (and current to a resistive load) as innovated by Joseph Newman and
as originally described in both his fundamental book -- THE ENERGY MACHINE
OF JOSEPH NEWMAN, published in 1984 and his Patent Application of 1979.

As a consequence, a GENERATOR action is developed WHILE the present
invention is operating as a MOTOR, i.e., producing a NET POSITIVE OUTPUT
TORQUE fully in accordance with Joseph Newman's original teachings as first
developed beginning in 1965 and as applied for in his original patent
application of 1979.

The torque developed in the present invention results from the attraction
and repulsion between magnetic poles on the rotor and stator. Since like
poles produce a mechanical force of repulsion, and unlike poles produce a
mechanical force of attraction, a rotor north pole situated between the
stator north and south poles will experience a net mechanical force away
from the stator north pole and an additive mechanical force of attraction
towards the stator south pole. In order that a continuous torque in the
same direction be produced, the rotor must have the same number of poles as
the stator, and there must be an even number of poles (i.e., every north
pole must be associated with a complementary south pole).

In a D.C. motor-generator, maximum torque is produced in the rotor when the
rotor poles are 90 degrees displaced (magnetically) from the stator poles.
When the rotor north pole is aligned with the stator south pole, the
magnetic angular displacement is zero (0) degrees. A displacement of 180
degrees occurs when the rotor north pole and stator north pole are aligned.
In the energy machine example of the present invention, the armature
winding is on the stator. The magnetic field, produced by high strength
permanent magnets mounted on the rotor, produces a magnetic flux that cuts
the coil windings of the armature as the rotor turns.

Electrical energy is supplied to, and derived from, the armature windings
by a system of commutation bars and slip rings that compel the stator poles
to remain configured such that A NET POSITIVE TORQUE IS PRODUCED THROUGHOUT
THE ENTIRE 360 DEGREE MOVEMENT OF THE ROTOR. Since the rotor, operating in
the steady-state, is designed to unidirectionally rotate, then a
unidirectional rotating magnetic field is thereby established in the
armature winding.

As noted above, in the classical motor, the armature winding typically
consists of A FEW TURNS of relatively thick wire in order to support the
flow of large armature currents to deliver the desired torque. Large
armature currents are utilized because classical equations suggest that the
rotor torque is directly proportional to the armature current. For example,
the equation for power, the time rate of doing work, is classically
recognized as:

P = T.omega. = Eg Ia = K.OMEGA.Ia .PHI.

where T is rotor torque, .omega. is rotor speed, Eg is the average value of
the induced voltage as viewed from the commutator brushes, Ia is the
armature D.C. current external to the motor, K is an armature constant,
.OMEGA. is armature speed (i.e., the armature commutation rate), and .PHI.
is magnetic field flux.

Thus, power may be defined as (1) rotor torque times rotor speed, (2)
generated armature voltage times armature current, or (3) the armature
constant times the product of armature speed, armature current, and field
flux. Eg cannot be actually measured because it assumes that the
distributed resistance of the armature is not present. However, Eg can be
approximated as the no-load value of the brush voltage when the machine is
operated purely as a generator. In addition, it is clearly recognized that
the armature current in all D.C. machines is an A.C. value. This is
required in order to maintain uniformity between stator and rotor poles so
that torque is optimized for every value of armature current. Rearranging
the above equation to express torque yields:

T = K'Ia

where K' is a constant comprising the armature constant, the ratio of the
armature commutation rate to rotor speed, and a constant field flux. This
equation states that for a constant field flux, as produced by the
permanent magnets implanted on the rotor, rotor torque is directly
proportional to armature current, when rotor speed is a parameter. Thus,
conventional electric motor design has focused on designs which enable the
use of large armature currents.

The present invention is a high efficiency energy machine which utilizes an
unconventional configuration and unconventional operating parameters to
achieve high efficiency operation. In the present invention, the armature
winding consists of A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF TURNS OF VERY THIN WIRE. This
high number of armature turns, and the thin wire, produce a very high coil
resistance. Also, several of these coils are connected in series at any one
time between the armature brushes of the energy machine. The application of
several thousand volts to the armature brushes produces an armature current
of ONLY A FEW MILLIAMPRES (mA), as originally described in Joseph Newman's
fundamental book.

At any given rotor speed, the shift of the angle of the induced armature
voltage is the angle which has a tangent equal to the product of the rotor
speed and armature coil inductance divided by armature resistance. That is,
tan.alpha.=.omega.L/R, where a is the relative angle shift (actual angle
shift is 90°-.alpha.) in radians, .omega. is the rotor speed, L is the
armature coil inductance in henrys, and R is armature coil resistance in
ohms. The time-delayed induced voltage of this shift, modulated by the net
effect of the products of commutation, produces an armature coil
voltage-current resultant that delivers electrical power to the externally
applied source. Therefore, generator action is produced while the energy
machine is operating as a motor.

In large part, much of the description of the operation of the invention
can be understood by thinking of the invention as an electrical transformer
that has a component that rotates. What makes the present invention
different from any other electric motor, however, is its EFFICIENCY of
operation. Its operation is very much like any other motor with the
exception that at least one principle of its operation is diametrically
opposed to conventional electric motor design theory and standards.

In the development of magneto motive force (MW), it is conventionally
taught that it is desirable to have a HIGH CURRENT operating on some coil
turns.  Higher currents then produce higher MMF and more rotational
mechanical energy out of the motor. In the present invention, however, the
magnitude of current is KEPT EXTREMELY SMALL in keeping with the teachings
of Joseph Newman, and the number of COIL TURNS is MAXIMIZED in order to
produce, in essence, the same MMF. In addition, the configuration of the
coils produces uniform, dense magnetic flux throughout the region of rotor
rotation, thereby producing a larger area for the MMF to operate against in
producing torque.

Many of the operational characteristics stated for the energy machine
assume linearity of the magnetic medium. In order to assure linearity,
non-ferrous materials are used in nearly every area of the machine's
construction including the main shaft, the casing, and commutator bars.
This also allows the coil magnetic field to not only extend through the
region of rotor rotation, but also to extend externally from the device
into surrounding space.

Unique designs of each of the components, and an unconventional overall
configuration, contribute to the HIGH EFFICIENCY achieved by the energy
machine. The energy machine comprises a stator casing which has a plurality
of coils mounted thereon, a rotor, a commutator, an external power source,
and a control unit. The rotor includes a plurality of permanent magnets
mounted around a rotor shaft. A bank of flourescent lamps may also be
included for rapid dumping of the magnetic energy of the coils during
commutation. A plurality of stationary contactors are utilized to make and
break connections on the commutator, thereby controlling the application of
power from the power source, and controlling the dumping of the coil
magnetic energy to the flourescent lamps.


 DESCRIPTION OF ONE ENERGY MACHINE DESIGN, continued in Part II ---


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DESCRIPTION OF ONE ENERGY MACHINE DESIGN, PART II. continued ---

The Stator

The stator (collectively, the stator casing and coils) establishes a
reference, and the rotor functions relative to the stator. The stator is
the stationary mechanism that produces a magnetic field environment that
induces rotation on the part of the rotor. The stator casing is constructed
of a non-ferrous (non-magnetic) material such as aluminum which enables the
magnetic flux density to pass freely into and out of the device. Although a
solid casing is illustrated, an open frame may also be utilized as long as
the armature coils are not shielded and the magnetic flux density produced
by the coils is allowed to pass freely into and out of the device.

The energy machine described herein is a bipolar device, therefore an
identical coil configuration is implemented on both the top and the bottom
halves of the stator casing. In a preferred design, eight coils are mounted
on the outside of the stator casing, four on the top and four on the
bottom, although a greater or lesser number of coils may be utilized. The
primary consideration in the configuration and number of coils is the
production of axially uniform, dense magnetic flux along the outer surface
(the rotor-stator interface surface) of the rotor magnets, thereby
producing a larger area for the MMF to operate against in producing torque.
The coils, having at least 6,000 turns each of extremely thin
(approximately 34 AWG gauge) wire, are wound as rectangles in each coil,
and are then mounted on the stator casing. There is an average of 6,650
turns in each coil, utilizing 33,500 feet of 34 AWG gauge, teflon-coated
copper wire per coil. In total, there are 53,200 turns and approximately
266,000 feet of wire in the eight coils. The coils are then connected in
series to the external power source 15. The coils may also be connected in
parallel, or in a parallel/series combination, if it is desired to increase
the magnetic flux density within the stator casing in order to control the
output of the energy machine.

The extreme length of the wire creates a high resistance. The high
resistance, however, does not create an operational constraint on the
device since the input current in the present invention is measured in
MILLIAMPRES rather than hundreds of amperes as is utilized in many
conventional electric motors. The smaller current operates on a much LARGER
NUMBER OF TURNS in the coil to produce the required MMF. A potential
operational constraint on the maximum operational speed of the device does
arise, however, as a result of the resistance of the wire.

This limitation arises because of the presence of inductance in the coil
circuit. The large number of turns in the coils produces a significant
inductance (L), and a large resistance (R) together with a large inductance
affects the time constant (L/R) of the coil. The time constant is the
inductance of the coil divided by the resistance of the coil. The time
constant determines the maximum rate at which the coil can deplete the
magnetic energy that it is storing. In the coil configuration described,
the coil has to dump its magnetic energy two times per revolution, and this
can never occur faster than allowed by the time constant.

The coil time constant is an inherent characteristic of the coil, but it is
counteracted to a sufficient degree in the present invention by connecting
a bank of gas-discharge (flourescent) light bulbs 19 in series with the
resistance, and dumping the magnetic energy into this non-linear,
capacitive, and voltage-limiting load. By inducing a resonating
voltage-limiting load, the time constant (L/R) also goes down, enabling the
coil to be dumped more quickly.

Theoretically, if the capacitive reactance equals the inductive reactance,
then the effect of the inductance is driven to zero, and the coil can be
dumped instantly

Winding the Coils

As noted above, the wire utilized in the coils is extremely thin, and thus
extremely fragile. Therefore, great care must be taken when winding each
coil to avoid breaking the wire. In particular, care must be taken to avoid
any slack in the wire which will cause the wire to snap if the slack is
suddenly taken up. A drag mechanism is utilized to apply constant drag to
the wire's supply spool regardless of the diameter of wire remaining on the
spool as the wire is pulled off the spool and wound onto the coil.

When winding each coil, the wire is essentially wrapped around the
perimeter of a properly sized rectangle. The rectangular shape of the coil
requires that additional steps be taken to avoid breaking the wire. A
rectangular jig is configured and mounted in a centered position on a coil
winding machine. Since the jig is rectangular, the radial distance from the
central axis of the coil winding machine to the perimeter of the jig varies
significantly as the jig rotates. It is preferable that the wire be pulled
off the supply spool at an exit angle of 90° relative to the spool axis
rather than at varying angles, in order to avoid putting extra stress on
the wire. Therefore, the wire must either be run through a pulley system
which accounts for the changing position of the perimeter of the jig, or
the spool must be mounted a sufficient distance from the jig so that the
change in the exit angle of the wire is minimized. If the spool is mounted
a long distance from the jig, intermediate supports must be provided to
prevent any significant droop (slack) from forming in the wire.

The coil winding machine should also be equipped with a variable speed
control in order to slow down the rotation of the jig as the diameter of
the wire on the supply spool is reduced and the coil diameter increases.
Otherwise, the RPMs of the spool increase, making it difficult to maintain
constant tension on the wire. Care should also be taken to avoid exceeding
the snap slack strength of the wire when each corner of the rectangular jig
is passed, the wire is laid along the following side of the rectangle, and
the next corner is rotated into contact with the wire. The coil winding RPM
must be kept slow enough to avoid snapping the wire.

A plurality of non-magnetic, L-shaped brackets 24 are mounted
longitudinally on the stator casing. The brackets are spaced around the
circumference of the stator casing to provide proper spacing of the coils.
The stator casing is constructed of a non-magnetic material such as 6061
aluminum which enables the magnetic flux density to pass freely into and
out of the device. The magnetic field produced by the externally mounted
coils provides intense magnetic flux density in the interior of the stator
casing. The stator casing has an inside diameter of approximately 6.25
inches, and is approximately 37.5 inches long. In another design of the
energy machine, the stator casing and rotor are sized so that the coils may
be mounted on the inner surface of the non-magnetic stator casing. In both
designs, the maximum gap 25 between the outer surface of any one of the
permanent magnets and a coil directly overlying the magnet is approximately
0.4 inches.

The Rotor

The rotor shaft 18 is longitudinally mounted in the center of the stator
casing. The widest diameter of the rotor is 5.85 inches, leaving just 0.2
inches clearance between the outer surface of the rotor (and the permanent
magnets) and the inside surface of the stator casing. The permanent magnets
are mounted in six slots around the circumference of the rotor so that the
top surface of each magnet is flush with the widest outside diameter of the
rotor. There are 54 grade 35 neodymium iron-boron magnets, each of which is
2 inches long, 2 inches wide, and 0.5 inch high. Set screws are utilized to
adjacently mount the magnets in the slots to form six rectangular bars
comprising 9 magnets each. Thus, bars are formed which are approximately 18
inches long, 2 inches wide, and 0.5 inch high. The magnets are mounted in
two groups of three bars, with the magnets in each group being mounted on
opposite sides of the rotor and in opposite polarity.

For example, three contiguous bars are mounted with their north poles
facing radially outward from the center of the shaft, and the other three
contiguous magnets are mounted with their south poles facing radially
outward from the center of the shaft. This configuration provides one large
pole-pair of magnets on the rotor. Each group of three magnets produces a
resultant magnetic vector which essentially places the magnetic pole for
the magnet grouping over the center magnet in the group.

Grade 35 neodymium iron-boron magnets are utilized because they have
extremely high magnetic strength, with superior flux density and high
magnetic field intensity for their size and mass. Additionally, neodymium
iron-boron magnets are manufactured items, providing flexibility in their
specified size, shape, and magnetic field strength. Their availability is
also more assured than naturally occurring magnets which have to be
discovered and mined. Magnets suitable for use in the energy machine may be
ordered as part number 35NE2812832 (grade 35 neodymium iron-boron magnets)
from Magnet Sales and Manufacturing Company, 11248 Playa Court, Culver
City, Calif. 90203.

These magnets have a closed circuit magnetic flux density of 12,300 gauss,
and an intrinsic magnetic field intensity of 11,300 oersteds.

Since neodymium iron-boron magnets may be manufactured in different sizes
and shapes, different permanent magnet configurations may be implemented
while still achieving the benefits of the energy machine invention. For
example, instead of configuring the magnets into three bar magnets in each
group, magnets with their north pole facing outward may be mounted to
completely cover almost one-half of the rotor surface. In effect, this
creates a curved magnet on one side of the rotor with the magnet's north
pole as its outer convex surface. Magnets with their south pole facing
outward may be mounted to cover most of the other half of the rotor
surface. In effect, that creates a curved magnet on the other side of the
rotor with the magnet's south pole as its outer convex surface. The
configuration of one energy machine design was selected as optimum based on
the cost of the neodymium iron-boron magnets and the magnetic flux density
produced.

Extremely strong neodymium iron-boron magnets also provide flexibility in
the overall design of the energy machine. What is desired in the overall
design is to achieve a specified level of interaction between the magnetic
field of the permanent magnets and the magnetic field generated by the
coils. The specified level of interaction is the level at which the motor
produces useful mechanical energy while the time rate of change of flux
linkages develops sufficient counter-electrical voltage to charge the
external battery power source. The magnetic field intensity of the
neodymium iron-boron magnets provides some degree of flexibility in the
design of the coils as well as the voltage applied to the coils because
their strength offers a wider range of interaction. The coil magnetic
intensity can be significantly lower than the intensity of the permanent
magnets, equal to, or significantly greater than the intensity of the
permanent magnets. The intensity of the coil magnetic field can be
controlled to fall anywhere in this range in order to control the output of
the energy machine. Magnets of lesser strength can therefore be utilized,
but the range of control will be proportionally less. The range of control
provided by the intense magnetic strength of the neodymium iron-boron
magnets additionally allows the coils to be connected in parallel rather
than in series to selectively control the coil magnetic field intensity.

Like the stator casing, the rotor is also constructed of a non-magnetic
material which is preferably aluminum. The permanent magnets are mounted in
the section of the rotor having the widest diameter. Six slots 22 are
provided for mounting the permanent magnets. One section of the rotor shaft
is utilized to mount the commutator.

As in any electric motor, when a current is started in the coils, a
magnetic polarity is established. For example, by applying a current in one
direction in one set of coils, and in the same direction in another set of
coils, a magnetic field may be established within the stator casing in
which the north pole is up, and the south pole is down. The opposite
polarity (south pole up and north pole down) is also possible.

If the magnetic polarity is aligned with the magnetic polarity of the
permanent magnets on the rotor, the rotor tries to line up. In other words,
if the three permanent magnets with their north magnetic poles facing
outward are near the top of the rotor shaft, and the three permanent
magnets with their south poles facing outward are near the bottom of the
shaft, the permanent magnets will be repelled by the like magnetic poles of
the magnetic field from the coils. This causes the shaft to rotate. As the
shaft passes the 90° point, there is maximum torque on the shaft as the
permanent magnets with their north poles facing outward are repelled by the
north pole of the coil magnetic field while they are attracted by the south
pole of the coil magnetic field. Likewise, the permanent magnets with their
south poles facing outward are repelled by the south pole of the coil
magnetic field while they are attracted by the north pole of the coil
magnetic field. If nothing else is done, the rotation of the rotor shaft
will stop when the resultant magnetic vector of the permanent magnets
achieves alignment with the magnetic poles of the magnetic field from the
coils (i.e., when the center magnet of opposite polarity reaches the coil
magnetic pole). This is the point of commutation.

The Commutator

For motor action, the rotation must continue past the point of commutation.
Therefore, just before the resultant magnetic vector of the permanent
magnets achieves alignment with the magnetic poles of the magnetic field
from the coils, the polarity of the magnetic field from the coils is
reversed (commutated). The momentum of the rotating shaft carries the
permanent magnets past the commutation point during the time period that
the commutation is taking place.

The commutation is a three-step process. First, the electrical energy being
supplied to the coils is disconnected. Second, most of the energy in the
coils (at least 95%) is discharged so that the magnetic field RAPIDLY
COLLAPSES. The energy may be discharged into a capacitive and
voltage-limiting load such as a bank of flourescent lamps. Finally, the
energy is reapplied to the coils with the OPPOSITE polarity. At this point,
the permanent magnets are again out of alignment with the magnetic field of
the coils by approximately 180°, and once again, the realignment process is
started by rotating the rotor shaft.

The timing and control of the polarity shift is VERY CRITICAL (as described
in his book, THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN), and that is the PURPOSE
of the commutator. The commutator is a cylindrically-shaped disk which is
mounted on the rotor shaft. The disk is constructed of a non-conductive
insulating material such as epoxy. Contact strips are mounted around the
circumference of the commutator. As the commutator rotates on the rotor
shaft, the contact strips are contacted by stationary contactors in order
to apply power to the coils, discharge the coils, and control the timing of
the commutation.

The strips are, of course, continuous strips around the circumference of
the commutator. As the commutator rotates on the rotor shaft, the
contactors move from right to left along the contact strips.

Commutation is a three-step process: (1) disconnect the power source, (2)
discharge the coils, and (3) reapply the power source with the opposite
polarity. There are positive and negative power strips, respectively, which
are utilized to apply power of a given polarity to the coils.

These strips are continuous strips with no breaks around the circumference
of the commutator. The 2nd and 4th strips are positive and negative
discharge strips which are utilized to discharge the energy from the coils
during commutation, and send the energy to a capacitive and
voltage-limiting load such as flourescent lamps.

These strips are continuous strips with no breaks around the circumference
of the commutator. Since the first, second, fourth, and fifth strips are
continuous with no breaks around the circumference of the commutator, the
contactors which contact these strips can be placed at any location around
the circumference.

The third strip is the timing and control strip, and comprises four
segments. A break of approximately 1/8th inch is placed between each
segment to prevent high voltage arching between the segments. The first and
third segments are located 180° from each other around the circumference of
the commutator, as are the second and fourth segments.

While the contactor for the third strip is in contact with the first
segment, positive power is applied to the coils through the first strip in
order to produce a magnetic field of a first polarity. The first segment of
the third strip is connected to the positive power (first strip) by
tunneling under the second strip through the epoxy body of the commutator.
Following a 1/8th-inch break, the contactor contacts the second segment
which is connected to discharge (second strip) which controls the discharge
of the positive coil energy into the bank of flourescent lamps. Following
another 1/8th-inch break, the contactor contacts the third segment which is
connected to negative power (fifth strip) by tunneling under the fourth
strip through the epoxy body of the commutator. The third segment controls
the application of negative power to the coils in order to produce a
magnetic field of a second and opposite polarity of that produced by the
first segment. Following another 1/8th-inch break, the contactor contacts
the fourth segment which is connected to discharge (4th strip) and controls
the discharge of the negative coil energy into the flourescent lamps.
Following a final 1/8th-inch break, the contactor returns to the first
strip, and the cycle is repeated.

For proper timing and adequate separation of segments to prevent high
voltage arching, the commutator has a diameter of nine (9) inches.

With the coil configuration described, commutation is performed every 180°
of shaft rotation, thereby producing a pulsating torque. This pulsation can
be reduced by configuring additional sets of coils around the circumference
of the stator casing. For example, with two pairs of coils mounted
orthogonally, commutation is performed every 90° of shaft rotation.
Likewise, with three pairs of coils mounted equidistant around the
circumference, commutation is performed every 60° of shaft rotation.

The Power Source

As originally taught by Joseph Newman, the magnitude of the current is kept
EXTREMELY SMALL and the number of COIL TURNS is MAXIMIZED in order to
produce the same MMF as conventional electric motors utilizing high current
inputs. The energy machine has been shown to operate satisfactorily with
electrical inputs of approximately 450 volts and milliamperes; 900 volts
and 30 milliamperes; and 1,350 volts and 30 milliamperes. In general,
voltages greater than 450 volts and currents in the range of 3040
milliamperes should produce satisfactory performance with the configuration
described.

In one energy machine design, the power source includes a voltage
multiplier and a wet cell. The voltage multiplier is a regulated,
voltage-controlled, voltage multiplier that produces an output voltage
which is variable from 0 to 5,000 volts at 30 to 40 milliamps (maximum).
The wet cell, such as a 12-volt automobile battery, is connected to the
voltage multiplier to absorb the unsafe portion of the negative back-spike
which is produced at the point of commutation.

Alternatively, the voltage multiplier can be replaced by a bank of 9-volt
batteries connected in series to produce the input voltage and current. For
example, fifty (50) 9-volt batteries connected in series produce an input
of 450 volts and 30 milliamps; one hundred (100) 9-volt batteries connected
in series produce an input of 900 volts and 30 milliamps; and one hundred
and fifty (150) 9-volt batteries connected in series produce an input of
1,350 volts and 30 milliamps.

The Control Unit

The control unit is integrated with the power source. In an example where a
bank of 9-volt batteries is employed, the batteries may be loaded in
battery drawers, each drawer containing, for example, fifty (50) 9-volt
batteries connected in series. The resulting output of each drawer is
approximately 450 volts at 30-40 milliamperes. A series of switches are
utilized to selectively connect battery drawers into the circuit. A main
switch opens and closes the main circuit. The wet cell is connected in
series with the battery bank to absorb the NEGATIVE BACK-SPIKE produced at
the point of commutation.

There are many variables in the design of the energy machine, and each
variable may fall within an acceptable range of values which depends on the
other variables in the design. For example, the input voltage to the coils
can change, depending on the configuration of the coils and the strength of
the permanent magnets on the rotor. Any combination, however, should result
in a device which produces a NET POSITIVE GENERAGED VOLTAGE (and current to
a resistive load) while the device is operating as a MOTOR (i.e., producing
a NET POSITIVE OUTPUT TORQUE) in keeping with Joseph Newman's teachings.

The operation and construction of one example of the energy machine should
be apparent from the above description. The apparatus and method
illustrates a D.C. device in which the permanent magnets are mounted on the
rotor, and two sets of coils are mounted on the stator. It will be readily
apparent, however, that various changes and modifications can be made to
construct an A.C. device, a device with additional sets of coils, or a
device with its coils mounted on the rotor and its permanent magnets
mounted on the stator without departing from the scope of the technology.

Joseph Newman does seek to commercialize the technology, but it takes
capital to produce commercial versions of the technology that are
constructed within close-tolerances and can operate at very high rpms.
Joseph Newman is one human being --- he is not a well-funded multi-national
corporation or a large university and he has never applied for nor sought a
"federal grant" at the expense of the taxpayer.  All he has sought is the
equal opportunity to protect his invention in the American marketplace via
the patent system created by those who are responsible for the U.S.
Constitution.  Ironically, it would not cost the American a SINGLE PENNY to
issue Joseph Newman a patent for his invention, yet federal bureaucrats
have spent MILLIONS of dollars of taxpayer monies fighting AGAINST the
technology.

The above information represents further evidence that Joseph Newman should
receive a patent for his more than 35 years of original thought, research,
and experimentation.

www.josephnewman.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 01:31:09 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 04:26:08 -0400
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Free Energy 3
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Mitch writes:
>
>***{There is nothing humiliating about being wrong, and proving oneself
>right is not a triumph. The main purpose of a group such as this is to
>provide a forum where we can test our ideas. The primary benefit of putting
>forth our opinions is to see if others can shoot them down. Every time that
>happens, we are enabled to learn and grow, if we have the strength to
>change our beliefs. That's when the *real* triumph occurs. --MJ}***

Hi Mitch,

I'm not sure whether I posted this idea to the FreeNRG Group or here, but
when this idea first came up, I basically gave him the same limitations, and
made a suggestion for a pipe with a wicking material inside it.  The basic
idea was that I thought that it might be possible to build a pipe as high as
you wanted and with the proper material inside, water would be wicked to the
top using the capillary principle.  If the top few feet of of the pipe were
made of a flexible material such as rubber, then it would be possible in my
mind to squeeze the water upward and outward from the top of the pipe with a
roller type pump, and water would wick back from below to replace it.
Depending on the height (the higher the better), I think that this would
prove to be OU if the water removed from the top used gravity to do work on
a trip back down to the ground.  Do you see any limitations in this type of
design?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 03:40:33 2000
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Message-ID: <39A3A79C.F22CC9A austininstruments.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:29:48 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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JNPCo. wrote:

...

> The above information represents further evidence that Joseph Newman should
> receive a patent for his more than 35 years of original thought, research,
> and experimentation.


---

The information presented only indicates that Joseph Newman has found
out how to build a motor. 

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 04:44:11 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:38:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "JNPCo." <josephnewman earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part II
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>JNPCo. wrote:
>
>...
>
> > The above information represents further evidence that Joseph Newman should
> > receive a patent for his more than 35 years of original thought, research,
> > and experimentation.
>
>
>---
>
>The information presented only indicates that Joseph Newman has found
>out how to build a motor.
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com


Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not 
merit the receiving of a patent?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 05:23:55 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman
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Joseph Henry


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Joseph Henry, physicist and scientific administrator, was born on =
December 17, 1797. Although he was largely self-educated, Henry studied =
at the Albany, NY, Academy from 1819 to 1822. Henry, began teaching at =
the Academy in Albany in 1826 where he remained until 1832 when he =
accepted a position at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton =
University).

His experimental work in chemistry, electricity, and magnetism reflected =
only a small portion of his broad scientific interest. Henry is known =
primarily for his discovery of electromagnetic induction, and =
self-induction. He is also credited with the invention of the electric =
motor.

In 1846, Henry became the first secretary of the newly organized =
Smithsonian Institution, where he established a continuing tradition of =
research. Under his leadership, weather reporting stations were =
connected by telegraph in the United States. These weather reporting =
stations were organized and maintained by the U.S. Army signal corps. =
This organization would become, in 1891, the U.S. Weather Bureau =
(Service). Henry also directed the resources of the Smithsonian =
Institution to encourage research in the areas of astronomy, botany and =
Native American anthropology.

In the spring of 1863 Henry became one of the founding members of the =
National Academy of Science, and served as Academy president beginning =
in 1867. He served as both the National Academy of Science president and =
secretary of the Smithsonian Institution until his death in 1878. In =
1893 his name was given to the standard electrical unit of inductive =
resistance, the henry.

Designed by: Barry Goldsmith=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
References

Asimov, I. (1964). Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of Science and =
Technology: The Living Stories of More than 1000 Great Scientists from =
the Age of Greece to the Space Age Chronologically Arranged. Garden =
City, NY: Doubleday.

Debus, A.G. (1968). World Who's Who in Science: A Biographical =
Dictionary of Notable Scientists from Antiquity to the Present. Chicago: =
Marquis.

McGraw-Hill (1966). McGraw-Hill Modern Men of Science. New York: McGraw =
Hill.

Smithsonian Institution (1997) The Joseph Henry Papers

Return to Main Menu




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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Joseph Henry</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.sjsu.edu/depts/Museum/henry.html><!--This file created =
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<P>
<HR>
<FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica,Geneva,SansSerif><IMG align=3Dright =
height=3D180=20
src=3D"graphics/henry.gif" width=3D180></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial,Helvetica,Geneva,SansSerif size=3D+2><B>Joseph =
Henry</B></FONT>,=20
physicist and scientific administrator, was born on December 17, 1797. =
Although=20
he was largely self-educated, Henry studied at the Albany, NY, Academy =
from 1819=20
to 1822. Henry, began teaching at the Academy in Albany in 1826 where he =

remained until 1832 when he accepted a position at the College of New =
Jersey=20
(now Princeton University).
<P></P>
<P>His experimental work in chemistry, electricity, and magnetism =
reflected only=20
a small portion of his broad scientific interest. Henry is known =
primarily for=20
his discovery of electromagnetic induction, and self-induction. He is =
also=20
credited with the invention of the electric motor.</P>
<P>In 1846, Henry became the first secretary of the newly organized =
Smithsonian=20
Institution, where he established a continuing tradition of research. =
Under his=20
leadership, weather reporting stations were connected by telegraph in =
the United=20
States. These weather reporting stations were organized and maintained =
by the=20
U.S. Army signal corps. This organization would become, in 1891, the =
U.S.=20
Weather Bureau (Service). Henry also directed the resources of the =
Smithsonian=20
Institution to encourage research in the areas of astronomy, botany and =
Native=20
American anthropology.</P>
<P>In the spring of 1863 Henry became one of the founding members of the =

National Academy of Science, and served as Academy president beginning =
in 1867.=20
He served as both the National Academy of Science president and =
secretary of the=20
Smithsonian Institution until his death in 1878. In 1893 his name was =
given to=20
the standard electrical unit of inductive resistance, the henry.</P>
<P>Designed by: Barry Goldsmith=20
<HR>
<FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica,Geneva,SansSerif=20
size=3D+1><B><STRONG>References</STRONG></B></FONT>
<P></P>
<P>Asimov, I. (1964). <I>Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of Science =
and=20
Technology: The Living Stories of More than 1000 Great Scientists from =
the Age=20
of Greece to the Space Age Chronologically Arranged.</I> Garden City, =
NY:=20
Doubleday.</P>
<P>Debus, A.G. (1968). <I>World Who's Who in Science: A Biographical =
Dictionary=20
of Notable Scientists from Antiquity to the Present. </I>Chicago: =
Marquis.</P>
<P>McGraw-Hill (1966). <I>McGraw-Hill Modern Men of Science.</I> New =
York:=20
McGraw Hill.</P>
<P><A=20
href=3D"http://www.si.edu/organiza/offices/archive/ihd/jhp/index.htm">Smi=
thsonian=20
Institution</A> (1997) <I>The Joseph Henry Papers</I></P>
<P><A name=3D""></A><A href=3D"aamenu.html">Return to Main =
Menu</A><BR></P>
<P>
<HR>

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Sorry Mr. Newman, but you are about 170 years too late.  :-)

 http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/Museum/henry.html

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 http://www.si.edu/archives//ihd/jhp/joseph21.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 06:17:32 2000
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Message-ID: <39A3CB6C.343CEAEA austininstruments.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:02:36 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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JNPCo. wrote:
 
> Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not
> merit the receiving of a patent?


---

If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
would be worthwhile.

However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.

Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no? 

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 07:22:11 2000
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I understood that aluminum was slightly resistant to magnetic fields, and 
allowing the field to extend a great distance beyond the device seems to me 
not only wasteful but potentially hazardous as it can interact with other 
electronics and such...

I thought if capacitive reactance in a circuit equalled inductive reactance 
you reached resonance, not a null time constant.


Otherwise sounds like a standard motor concept explained in excruciating 
detail.

Just My Opinion
Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 08:26:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Whirlpower & Namecalling -> VortB please!
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John Fields wrote:

>If someone makes a totally ridiculous statement here should it not be
>contested here?

Generally speaking, it should, but a few people make nothing but ridiculous
statements, and I suggest it would be more productive for you to ignore
them. I use e-mail filters for Dennard and a few others.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 08:35:50 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>Mitch writes:
>>
>>***{There is nothing humiliating about being wrong, and proving oneself
>>right is not a triumph. The main purpose of a group such as this is to
>>provide a forum where we can test our ideas. The primary benefit of putting
>>forth our opinions is to see if others can shoot them down. Every time that
>>happens, we are enabled to learn and grow, if we have the strength to
>>change our beliefs. That's when the *real* triumph occurs. --MJ}***
>
>Hi Mitch,
>
>I'm not sure whether I posted this idea to the FreeNRG Group or here, but
>when this idea first came up, I basically gave him the same limitations, and
>made a suggestion for a pipe with a wicking material inside it.  The basic
>idea was that I thought that it might be possible to build a pipe as high as
>you wanted and with the proper material inside, water would be wicked to the
>top using the capillary principle.  If the top few feet of of the pipe were
>made of a flexible material such as rubber, then it would be possible in my
>mind to squeeze the water upward and outward from the top of the pipe with a
>roller type pump, and water would wick back from below to replace it.
>Depending on the height (the higher the better), I think that this would
>prove to be OU if the water removed from the top used gravity to do work on
>a trip back down to the ground.  Do you see any limitations in this type of
>design?

***{Let's run the numbers.

According to my 40th edition *Handbook of Chemistry and Physics*, pg. 2142,
the surface tension of water against air at 20 deg. C is 72.75 dynes/cm.
Surface tension is determined by, for example, attaching a thread to the
center of a very thin, straight wire, laying the wire flat on the surface
of the water, and measuring the force which is required to lift it free
from that surface. Since the water pulls at the wire from each side as we
try to lift it up, T = F/2l, where T is the surface tension, F is the
required lifting force in excess of the weight of the wire, and l is the
length of the wire.

Since surface tension is the force lifting water inside a capillary tube,
the lifting force is 2¼rT dynes, where r is the radius of the capillary
tube.

The mass of the water being lifted, on the other hand, is ¼(r^2)hd, where h
is the height of the tube in cm, and d is the density of water in gms/cm.
Since the density of water is about 1 gm/cm, and each gram of water weighs
980 dynes, the downward force in dynes that the surface tension has to lift
is 980¼(r^2)h.

When the downward weight of the column of water equals the lifting force
supplied by surface tension, it can be lifted no higher. To calculate how
high a column of water we can raise by capillary action, therefore, we
simply set the above two expressions equal and solve for h--viz:

2¼rT = 980¼(r^2)h

Solving, we find that h = T/490r

Examining the above expression, we see that the height to which water can
be raised in a capillary tube is inversely proportional to the radius of
the tube. Thus the smallest possible value for r would have to be the
radius of a water molecule. Looking in my 63rd edition *Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics*, I see (pg. F-182) that the O-H bond length of water
is .958 angstroms, or 9.58x10^-9 cm. Plugging in the appropriate values, we
find that h = T/490r = (72.75)/490(9.58x10^-9) = 15,497,849 cm, or about
155 km or 96 miles.

Conclusion: raising water to a significant height by capillary action
appears possible. What you would need would be a mass of capillary tubes
that are very small, and very tough (so that they could withstand the
repeated squeezing inflicted by the rollers of a peristaltic pump). Since
the energy that lifted the water to height would be "free," any energy
extracted from the water on its way back down would also be "free."

What isn't free, of course, is the capillary material, which will have to
be manufactured by a process that will have costs, and which will have to
be replaced when worn out by the pump rollers or clogged up by chemical or
bacterial action. Thus the key question is this: does a capillary material
exist which will be sufficiently durable and sufficiently resistant to
chemical or bacterial action, so that the total value of the energy
extracted from the water on the way back down will exceed the replacement
cost of the material plus the cost of running the peristaltic pump?

Frankly, I don't know.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 09:05:51 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Henry is known primarily
>for  his discovery of electromagnetic induction, and self-induction. He is
>also  credited with the invention of the electric motor.

And the telegraph! Don't forget. Morse did not understand the basic science
well, although he made many practical improvements, he devised the code,
pushed the project through to completion, and he took the credit and the
money. They argued about who deserved more credit for the rest of their
lives. As I see it, Morse deserves more credit, because he acted promptly
and pushed through to commercialization, whereas Henry let the discovery
lie fallow after he demonstrated a transmission through a 1-mile long wire.
Morse was like Henry Ford or Bill Gates; he implemented other people's
ideas better than they did themselves. (Or if not better, more profitably,
on a larger scale.)

Morse's main technical contribution was a pen attached to the telegraph
that marked a paper strip with dots and dashes. It was complicated and
trouble prone, and it turned out to be unnecessary, because operators
quickly learned to take down code by listening to the buzzer, or in some
cases, with a weak signal, by putting the wire on their tongue and "feeling
the buzz."

This brings up an interesting topic I have been meaning to write about.
When new technology is developed, people often make great efforts to devise
peripheral devices and ways of using the new technology which turn out to
be useless frills. They anticipate problems which do not exist, and they
try to imitate old technology in ways the serve no purpose. I have a
picture from the Japanese edition of Scientific American in 1981 showing an
ideal portable "dream computer" of the future. It includes a built-in
printer, a joystick, a light pen, hardwired hardware controls for the
speaker, several unidentified rows of keys, an elaborate swiveling
microphone, and various other doodads that people would not bother putting
on a portable computer today. When railroads were being invented, and few
people had actually seen one, someone came up with an elaborate design for
a railroad engine driving wheel with spikes (or teeth) designed to fit
precisely spaced holes that were to be drilled in the track. The person who
designed this thought that steel wheels on a narrow track would spin,
without enough friction to propel the train. He did not realize how much
friction a heavy engine produces. He went to a great deal of trouble to fix
a problem which it turned out, does not exist. In a sense, he was right,
though. Trains did slip on tracks at a steep grade, and on tracks which
were wet, icy, or covered with crushed swarms of locusts. Furthermore, the
problem is worse today than it was back in 1820, because trains are
enormously longer and heavier. Heavy duty freight locomotives today require
elaborate computer controlled start up sequences to set the trains in
motion, or they will slip, or waste energy.

- Jed

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Mitchell Jones asks:

>Thus the key question is this: does a capillary material
>exist which will be sufficiently durable and sufficiently resistant to
>chemical or bacterial action, so that the total value of the energy
>extracted from the water on the way back down will exceed the replacement
>cost of the material plus the cost of running the peristaltic pump?

Trees perform that function on a continuous basis.

Try an apple tree. Not only could you extract the energy of the falling apples, but you can also then sell the apples.

Or, if you don't like that one, a Chinese Tallow tree, the fruits of which may be burned in a furnace.

(Yes, I know these do more than just give you the energy of the rising water, but that's part of the point).

Dan Quickert
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 09:37:27 2000
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References: <39A31B46.156DBA99 austininstruments.com>
 <F169k38dWMJ69ik6kvX00002e12 hotmail.com>
 <39A30B2B.84F3AAEF austininstruments.com>
 <v04210100b5c8c400c571 [192.168.0.2]>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:23:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Whirlpower & Namecalling -> VortB please!
Resent-Message-ID: <"a7sVQ3.0.kp5.5g_ev" mx1>
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>John Fields wrote:
>
>>If someone makes a totally ridiculous statement here should it not be
>>contested here?
>
>Generally speaking, it should, but a few people make nothing but ridiculous
>statements, and I suggest it would be more productive for you to ignore
>them. I use e-mail filters for Dennard and a few others.
>
>- Jed

***{People who have strong opinions about science but lack the technical
background to defend them have a simple choice: they can acquire the
technical knowledge which they lack, or they can rely on statements such as
"I'm not a scientist" or "That's over my head" to justify not doing so.
However, if they follow the latter course, then they will find themselves
frequently backed into corners when their beliefs are criticized, and will
at that point be forced to employ the techniques of evasion--to wit: the
making of vague statements, subject switching, distortion of the words of
others, and the hurling of pejoratives. Unfortunately, against an opponent
who calmly dissects such techniques, evasion does not work. Result: the
only remaining line of defense is to use e-mail filters to screen out the
comments of those against whom evasion does not work, and, as cover, to
also filter out a few certifiable kooks as well. :-) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 10:05:53 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:01:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
Resent-Message-ID: <"gudej1.0.GD1.IE0fv" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones asks:
>
>>Thus the key question is this: does a capillary material
>>exist which will be sufficiently durable and sufficiently resistant to
>>chemical or bacterial action, so that the total value of the energy
>>extracted from the water on the way back down will exceed the replacement
>>cost of the material plus the cost of running the peristaltic pump?
>
>Trees perform that function on a continuous basis.
>
>Try an apple tree. Not only could you extract the energy of the falling
>apples, but you can also then sell the apples.
>
>Or, if you don't like that one, a Chinese Tallow tree, the fruits of which
>may be burned in a furnace.
>
>(Yes, I know these do more than just give you the energy of the rising
>water, but that's part of the point).
>
>Dan Quickert

***{While a tree is in a sense a "free energy machine"--i.e., it yields up
more energy to us than it costs to plant the seed--and while part of the
modus operandi of a tree is to use capillary action, I think Knuke was
focused more on whether capillary action could be used to construct a
*man-made* free energy machine. Thus that was the point I was addressing.

Continuing along that original line, it has occurred to me that the
peristaltic pump at the top could be eliminated: you could simply bend the
tube containing the capillary material--e.g., cellulose sponges--downward
for a few feet at the top, and let the water drip into a reservoir. (Note:
the capillary material should *not* be allowed to touch the surface of the
liquid in the reservoir, because if it did so, the direction of flow would
be downhill, not uphill, and the capillary tubing would suck the upper
reservoir dry rather than fill it up.)

The central problem I see with all this is that in order to get a large
value for the lift height, the diameters of the capillary tubes have to be
very small--which means: the flow rate per tube must be reduced. Result:
more and more tubes, and hence more and more tube material, is required to
produce large flows and large vertical lifts. Thus it is by no means clear
at this point that such a scheme is workable.

Here is an experimental test, for those who are so inclined: stuff a garden
hose with cellulose sponges (cut to fit, of course), and run the hose from
a milk carton filled with water at ground level up to a height of, say, 10
feet, and then drop the hose back down a couple of feet into a second,
empty, milk carton. Make sure that the sponges touch one another
throughout, and that there are *no* sponges in the last foot of the
two-foot downward section that goes into the second pan. Then seal the
mouths of both cartons to eliminate evaporation, and see how much water, if
any, is transferred from the lower pan to the upper one, and what the flow
rate is. [Note: a good way to stuff the hose with sponges would be to cut
it open lengthwise with a very sharp knife, stuff in the sponges (making
sure that they are in contact with one another), and then use silicone calk
to reseal the cut.]

Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 10:56:18 2000
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 <39A3A79C.F22CC9A austininstruments.com>
 <v04210108b5c9673b650c [63.17.10.121]>
 <39A3CB6C.343CEAEA austininstruments.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:46:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "JNPCo." <josephnewman earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part II
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>JNPCo. wrote:
>
> > Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not
> > merit the receiving of a patent?
>
>
>---
>
>If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile.
>
>However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
>with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
>allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.
>
>Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
>overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no?
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com


O.K.  From your above comments, I gather that you believe that the 
info would not merit receiving a patent because there's no novelty in 
the disclosure.

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

ERS

P.S. No doubt you are aware that JN's never used the expression 
"perpetual motion" nor does he believe in the possibility of a 
so-called "perpetual motion" machine.  Nevertheless, John, I enjoy 
your sense of humor.  :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 11:08:22 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Mitchell Jones asks:
> >
> >>Thus the key question is this: does a capillary material
> >>exist which will be sufficiently durable and sufficiently resistant to
> >>chemical or bacterial action, so that the total value of the energy
> >>extracted from the water on the way back down will exceed the replacement
> >>cost of the material plus the cost of running the peristaltic pump?
> >
> >Trees perform that function on a continuous basis.
> >
> >Try an apple tree. Not only could you extract the energy of the falling
> >apples, but you can also then sell the apples.
> >
> >Or, if you don't like that one, a Chinese Tallow tree, the fruits of which
> >may be burned in a furnace.
> >
> >(Yes, I know these do more than just give you the energy of the rising
> >water, but that's part of the point).
> >
> >Dan Quickert
> 
> ***{While a tree is in a sense a "free energy machine"--i.e., it yields up
> more energy to us than it costs to plant the seed--and while part of the
> modus operandi of a tree is to use capillary action, I think Knuke was
> focused more on whether capillary action could be used to construct a
> *man-made* free energy machine. Thus that was the point I was addressing.
> 
> Continuing along that original line, it has occurred to me that the
> peristaltic pump at the top could be eliminated: you could simply bend the
> tube containing the capillary material--e.g., cellulose sponges--downward
> for a few feet at the top, and let the water drip into a reservoir. (Note:
> the capillary material should *not* be allowed to touch the surface of the
> liquid in the reservoir, because if it did so, the direction of flow would
> be downhill, not uphill, and the capillary tubing would suck the upper
> reservoir dry rather than fill it up.)
> 
> The central problem I see with all this is that in order to get a large
> value for the lift height, the diameters of the capillary tubes have to be
> very small--which means: the flow rate per tube must be reduced. Result:
> more and more tubes, and hence more and more tube material, is required to
> produce large flows and large vertical lifts. Thus it is by no means clear
> at this point that such a scheme is workable.
> 
> Here is an experimental test, for those who are so inclined: stuff a garden
> hose with cellulose sponges (cut to fit, of course), and run the hose from
> a milk carton filled with water at ground level up to a height of, say, 10
> feet, and then drop the hose back down a couple of feet into a second,
> empty, milk carton. Make sure that the sponges touch one another
> throughout, and that there are *no* sponges in the last foot of the
> two-foot downward section that goes into the second pan. Then seal the
> mouths of both cartons to eliminate evaporation, and see how much water, if
> any, is transferred from the lower pan to the upper one, and what the flow
> rate is. [Note: a good way to stuff the hose with sponges would be to cut
> it open lengthwise with a very sharp knife, stuff in the sponges (making
> sure that they are in contact with one another), and then use silicone calk
> to reseal the cut.]
> 
> Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***


---

How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
the original reservoir?

Free work!

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 11:16:12 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman
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In all due deference to Joseph Newman's claim of over-unity
for his motor there is a strong possibility that his motor, or for that
matter any electric motor or generator is intrinsically ou because of
the magnetogravity field (Torque)effects on the windings/magnets:

Torque,  T = IAB sin theta + (K)r[1.0E-7 * (I*L) * 0.02583*Em/R^2] sin theta

I = loop current  (amperes)

A =  loop area  (square meters)

B =  magnetic flux density  (webers per square meter)

L - loop length  (meters)

r = loop "radius"  (meters)

Em = Earth's Mass (kg)

R = Earth's Radius  (meters)

theta = the angle between the magnetic field lines and the plane of
            the current loop, or the angle between the plane of the
            current loop and the Earth's radial magnetogravity field.

De Aquino, et al's "gravity shielding" experiments tend to substantiate this, as does
the Yusmar/Huffman and other effects where the carefully measured electrical input vs the
heat rise in the agitated water shows ou, but when Scott Little and Hal Puthoff
used a Dynamometer (measuring power based on torque/rpms which would miss the ou) 
they DID NOT see any ou effect. Naturally.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 11:24:21 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman
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There is a statue of Henry in the park across from the NY State Museum in
Albany. The pigeons love him.

Hank

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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>

> 
> How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> the original reservoir?
> 
> Free work!

Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> ---
> 
> John Fields
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 13:20:35 2000
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
References: <v04011702b5c9ac406ac1 [207.8.127.125]> <39A40835.F8271F4D@austininstruments.com> <016901c00d37$6ab3bb20$5d441d26@fjsparber>
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550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
equal...???

Frederick Sparber wrote:

> From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>
> >
> > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > the original reservoir?
> >
> > Free work!
>
> Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
>
> Regards,    Frederick
> >
> > ---
> >
> > John Fields
> >
> >

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550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
equal...???

Frederick Sparber wrote:

> From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>
> >
> > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > the original reservoir?
> >
> > Free work!
>
> Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
>
> Regards,    Frederick
> >
> > ---
> >
> > John Fields
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 14:00:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
> 
Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
energy it takes to break the surface tension
bonds at the top of the column. That energy
should equal the energy of formation that
allowed the water to be lifted initially.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?

Sno wrote:
> 550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
> equal...???

Actually 15 gal ~ = 120 lbs times six feet = 720 foot-lbs/day . 778 ft-lbs/btu
would give 720/778 ~ = 0.9 btu or about 1,000 joules.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> >
> > >
> > > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > > the original reservoir?
> > >
> > > Free work!
> >
> > Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> > 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> > about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > John Fields
> > >
> > >
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 14:19:03 2000
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Subject: Re: test
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At 07:34 PM 8/22/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Ross writes:
> >test
> >NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com
>
>Hi again Ross!
>
>I was sitting here in the nude reading aimlessly the other day in my
>cardboard box while munching on a cracker, as I do for a living now just to
>wind up the locals here and in Georgia, and I ran across this really great 
>URL:
>
>http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/weekly/aa061500a.htm

This might be a luminol solution........I don't know.  But it is 
interesting.  There are other solutions that can (and have) be added to SL 
bubbles to increase luminscence and other effects.

Sorry I don't read vortex much so miss some questions.

rt



>which described an invention for making luminescent bubbles that respond to
>UV and infrared light - bubbles that would glow in the dark or Black Light
>Bubbles, as it were.  As you may recall, I asked if you knew of any methods
>of testing for cavitation efficiency in a given cavitation system, and this
>looks like it may be something useful. Not only would measuring the light
>output give you a good idea of how much cavitation was occurring, but
>equally as important, it would show you exactly where in the system
>cavitation was occurring without any need for expensive Schlieren imaging.
>I looked up the patent, and there are numerous other patents for chemicals
>of this nature.  Hope this helps.
>
>Can't wait to get my virtual, visual conferencing equipment.
>
>Knuke
>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 14:20:18 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: George Holz <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?

George Holz wrote:


> Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
> > 
> Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
> energy it takes to break the surface tension
> bonds at the top of the column. That energy
> should equal the energy of formation that
> allowed the water to be lifted initially.

A lot of study into this came about for Heat Pipe Wicks in the late 1960s.

You can sandwich ink blotters between plates and wick up to several feet
but you won't pump beyond the suface energy barrier that George is talking
about.

The "Root Pressure " that trees use to lift sap (more than 300 feet for giant redwoods)
is not capillary action alone, but an electro-chemical  (Electro-0smosis)"pump" powered
by Solar Energy.. 

I don't see water gushing out of tree stumps after they have dried out. :-)

Regards,     Frederick
> -
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 14:49:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:36:49 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
In-Reply-To: <01a301c00d4f$35364360$5d441d26 fjsparber>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>The "Root Pressure " that trees use to lift sap (more than 300 feet for
giant redwoods)
>is not capillary action alone, but an electro-chemical
(Electro-0smosis)"pump" powered
>by Solar Energy.. 

I thought it was evaporation transpiration. (???)

Anyway, it is definitely solar.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 15:50:04 2000
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Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part II
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>JNPCo. wrote:
>
> > Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not
> > merit the receiving of a patent?
>
>
>---
>
>If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile.
>
>However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
>with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
>allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.
>
>Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
>overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no?
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com


O.K.  From your above comments, I gather that you believe that the 
info would not merit receiving a patent because there's no novelty in 
the disclosure.

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

ERS

P.S. No doubt you are aware that JN's never used the expression 
"perpetual motion" nor does he believe in the possibility of a 
so-called "perpetual motion" machine.  Nevertheless, John, I enjoy 
your sense of humor.  :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 16:07:42 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>George Holz wrote:

>> Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
>> energy it takes to break the surface tension
>> bonds at the top of the column. That energy
>> should equal the energy of formation that
>> allowed the water to be lifted initially.

That's certainly what our informal experiments with this system showed.  If
you make a thin J-shaped capillary that rises up a distance and then curves
over, you find that the water will be sucked up into the capillary filling
the entire thing but it will hang there at the mouth and not drip out on
its own...provided the mouth of the tube is above the water level in the
source reservoir.

We did succeed in making a self-starting siphon by turning the J-shaped
capillary around so that the open end of the capillary was well below the
level of water in the reservoir.  In other words, the capillary tube rose
up and over the rim of a nearly-full glass of water and then went down the
outside a fair distance below the water level before the tube ended.  When
the inlet end of the capillary is lowered into contact with the water's
surface, the capillary fills very rapidly and, due to the gravitational
potential available, water starts dripping out of the open end...i.e. a
self-starting siphon.

Due to the fine capillary required, the flow rate is pretty miserable in
this siphon.

We also tried wicks....same result.




Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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You had it right, Jed.  :-)

 http://www.sciam.com/askexpert/biology/biology21.html

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Reply-To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: sciclub-list eskimo.com
Subject: $10.95, high voltage got expensive!
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On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, William Beaty wrote:
> How about this:   a small, safe 7,500 volt DC power supply for $3.99 !
>   http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=2713

Arrg!  M. Foster just pointed out that E.G. raised the price of the 7.5KV
power supply to $10.95.  This means that All Electronics again has the
lowest price: $4.50


  http://www.allelectronics.com/online-store/scstore/shophome.html
  IONIZER   Seawise Industrial Ltd. Model # SW750. Input: 120 Vac. 
  Output: 7.5 KVDC   The main component in a household ionization unit.
  2.2" x 1" x 0.86" thick with a mounting tab that extends 0.75" from the
  unit. UL recognized.   Catalog # SW-750   Price: $ 4.50 


Electronics Goldmine also has a battery powered 15KV supply for $12.95

  12VDC ion generator (15KV output)
  http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=2149

This one is VERY INTERSTING, because if the entire device (including the
battery) is isolated in a thick plastic box, then the battery connections
become the positive HV terminal.  To convert the device to a positive 15KV
power supply, simply connect the negative HV lead to earth, and use either
battery terminal as the +15KV terminal. Note that if you add a switch to
the battery circuit, the switch will need to be isolated on the end of a
long plastic rod. 

Even better, if you give each module its own battery, you can stack them
in series to attain a much higher voltage.  At $13/15KV, a 100KV power
supply would cost $83 bucks!  Since the modules supposedly will operate
with a single 9V battery, it wouldn't take much to build a megavolt stack. 
Turn on each battery with a small rotary switch, and connect the switches
mechanically in series so a single rod can turn them all on.  Zap!

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 19:58:11 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Free Energy in switzerland .... Your comments please....
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	Dear Folks,


	If you want to know more you can request thheir brochure... they
mail it out no cost.

	They will sell you shares and they say it may one day be a
product.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Robert writes:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Free energy tested and prooved in Zwitserland.
> >Some very interesting literture and products. I think that I shall take an
> >appointment
> >at QRM to see this equipment by myself. (It is not too far; I am living in
> >Belgium)
> >
> >All your comments are welcome.......
> >
> >
> >http://www.rqm.ch/
> >http://www.rqm.ch/eng/tech-inf.htm
> >
> >
> >Robert HOFFMANN
> 
> Ahoy there,
> 
> I looked at their page some years back, when it consisted of mainly a splash
> page, and a business prospective.  There were a few photos then, but very
> little in the way of an explanation that I could follow, as to how their
> device worked.  At that time, I would not have recommended a visit simply
> because the they appeared to be too closed and proprietary to allow any
> usable information to be demonstrated. Since that time however, their
> website has improved quite a lot, giving much more detail about the
> supporting physics, and my understanding of the physics has increased to a
> degree, as well.
> 
> It now looks as if they are on the same line of research as many other
> people, and are claiming to have solved some of the problems with their
> design that they had earlier.  The underlying physics or operating
> principles behind their design has been replicated now so many times, by so
> many people using differing approaches that it no longer presents nearly as
> much of a mystery as it did before.  Their website is one of the most
> coherent and easy-to-understand presentations of the scalar and longitudinal
> wave based energy systems that I have seen to date.  I thank you for giving
> me the nudge to go have another look at it.
> 
> Obviously, these are intelligent, professional scientists and engineers who
> have designed and performed rigorous tests and identified many of the key
> mathmatical factors necessary to improve their own technology as well as the
> technologies of some of the others who are working in this field.  If I had
> the opportunity to visit with them, I would take it and probably learn a
> lot.  As it is, I am very happy with what they have done just on the web.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 20:06:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:03:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
>>
>Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
>energy it takes to break the surface tension
>bonds at the top of the column?

***{I can't speak for others, but I didn't think of it! :-( --MJ}***

 That energy
>should equal the energy of formation that
>allowed the water to be lifted initially.

***{This I doubt. If you raise water a mile using a very fine system of
capillary tubes, and then wring the tubes at the top with your hands, you
should be able to squish most of the water out. By your logic, the higher
the water went, the harder it would be to wring out. That flies in the face
of common sense. Thus all you appear to have demonstrated is that Knuke's
original suggestion about using a peristaltic pump at the top was correct,
and that I erred in thinking it would be possible to get by without it.
(Sorry, Knuke.) The key point here is that the energy required to wring out
a foot of saturated tubing at the top would be the same regardless of how
high the capillary action had carried the fluid, and, thus, if you went
high enough, the potential energy in the water that was wrung out would
exceed the energy consumed by the pump when wringing it out. Hence the
system would be OU. (Yes, I find that hard to believe, but that's the way
it looks to me at the moment. So what am I missing?) --MJ}***

>-
>George Holz                george varisys.com
>Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
>Bound Brook, NJ          08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 20:14:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Joseph Henry vs Joseph Newman

You did it again, didn't you?    :-)


> There is a statue of Henry in the park across from the NY State Museum in
> Albany. The pigeons love him.
> 
> Hank
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 23 23:03:19 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Henry's History
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Ahoy!

This has become interesting.  I grabbed my Project Physics book to see what
they had to say about Henry, and they actually gave him a whole paragraph
inserted into about 6 pages on Michael Faraday.  There is no mention at all
about his discovery of the telegraph, but they credit him for EM induction,
the transformer, and the DC motor.  They say in the paragraph that he was
not that important because he had to work at his job, which was teaching,
and wasn't allowed to spend time on research.  All his research was done on
his own time and with his own money.  He discovered induction for example,
while on his vacation, and couldn't find the time to publish anything about
it for a year, although he demonstrated it to his students and numerous
academics who recorded and described what they witnessed.

Faraday, on the other hand, was a funded researcher who gave brilliant
lectures, but only in his spare time, and had plenty of time to publish his
findings immediately after doing the experiments.  Volta, Ampere, Oersted,
Maxwell, and Whittaker actually got worse treatment than Henry, in terms of
number of words describing their contributions to the science, and Heaviside
wasn't mentioned at all.  Basically, the chapter on Electricity was 6 pages
of Faraday, and 6 pages of Edison with some paragraphs of the work of the
above mentioned people interspersed as transitional filler.

What is really wild is how artfully they get around Tesla, whom they omit
ENTIRELY.  I read the whole thing over three times to make sure, just now.
They talk about AC current, motors, generators, and they name large projects
in various places in the world where Tesla built huge systems.  They name
Westinghouse, the Italian government, the International Electrical
Exposition in Frankfurt, the Cataract Construction Company, Edison's antics,
and General Electric, but not ONE SINGLE WORD about the guy that actually
made it all happen.

Jed says that Tesla just didn't market himself properly, and that he could
have done better, but if you look at the facts, the name Tesla was a
household word back then.  He did numerous publicity demos and stunts, and
was in every major newspaper of the entire world on the very front page
many, many times for years.  He was a great showman, actually.  I thought to
myself that this really is remarkable, and it cannot be put down to mere
oversight on the part of the authors, and so I had a look at who wrote this
piece of comicbook, historical, fictional garbage.

Well, it was published by Holt, Rinehart and Wilson, under the direction of
the Harvard Project Physics Group.  The directors of the HPP Group were
mostly department heads of Harvard U. and Harvard Grad School.  The project
was funded by the US Dept. of Education, and the National Science
Foundation, but large parts of the funding came from the Ford Foundation,
Alfred B. Sloan Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation and Harvard University.
In Seattle, I had a much better text published by Harcort and Brace, but it
didn't mention Tesla's work at all, either.  I gave that one to someone when
I left Seattle. It was much more clumsy about how it got around it though.
Both are still being used as college texts, as far as I know.  I think that
it has nothing to do with the science or the marketing of the technology,
and everything to do with making money off of it.  When the money people
decide to bugger you, I guess yer buggered.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 00:11:54 2000
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:09:59 +0200
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The next seminar is held on:
15. - 17. Sept. 2000 in Zürich-Regensdorf
Hotel Mövenpick
by Jupiter Verlag / INET with a lecture from Dr. Hans Weber RQF/SQR
Details: please see Internet:www.evert.de/inet002.htm

http://www.rqm.ch/
http://www.rqm.ch/eng/tech-inf.htm



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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part II
Resent-Message-ID: <"NKZZz1.0.dR2.cODfv" mx1>
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John writes:
>If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile.
>
>However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
>with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
>allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.
>
>Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
>overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no? 
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

Ahoy!

Actually, the disclosure is a lot more than that, and is a refeshing blast
of real technical info from the Newman camp.  It is the most complete and
well written disclosure on how to make his device that I've seen to date.  I
had a lot of trouble understanding what he was doing there with his motor
for years, and about the only comment that I could intelligently make about
it was that it sure used a heck of a lot of copper.  I'm beginning to
understand the concepts of back EMF, scalar and longitudinal theory though,
as well as the role of oscillators in grabbing extra energy, and this is
right in there with that bunch of devices.  Newman's motor involves
critically timed collecting of HV back EMF, voltage reduction, and
capacitance of a kind that we are now just learning about.  Why they didn't
give him a patent is still not clear, but they have given them to a number
of other people that have claimed similar results with different
configurations.  This is not a normal DC or AC motor, obviously.

Take a look at the Correa device, the Konzin Motor, the Gary Motor,
Wiseman's BG gas generator, and other devices too numerous to mention off
the top of my head, and you can see it.  Even the SMOT device is being
vindicated by this group of theories coming together.  I think that Newman's
motor could even be improved by using a combination of normally wound
induction coils supplemented with bifilar coils.  In fact, I think with the
high voltages present, the lack of iron cores, and the associated dangers
involved with being around those types of things, that it is imperative that
ALL, or as much as possible of the EMF, of all kinds that are being produced
get collected and channelled into normal circuitry, as thoroughly as
possible.  If that doesn't happen well enough, physical harm can result to
the experimenter, as well as all sorts of formerly unexplainable, and
usually destructive electrical anomalies can happen.

This looks more real to me than ever, now that I've seen the pattern
develop.  I still think it uses way too much copper, though. ;)  Newman
deserves credit for his perservance against the established opposition, and
the originality in his design, even if he may not have been the first to
utilize these newly re-discovered EM concepts.  I believe that the fact that
he didn't get a patent even after the endorsement of quite a few high
ranking energy authorities is an indication of the same type of criminal
malfeasance that is being used against Mills today.

The oil and nuclear industry want us to use fuel cells in the future, and
they want to own the centralized production facilities, and maintain control
of the distribution channels, and set the prices, like they have for the
last 150 years.  They simply will not allow anything else to interrupt their
cashflow, and will kill as many people as it takes to protect it.  This
situation can no longer be tolerated by anyone who considers themselves to
be a decent human being.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 01:33:44 2000
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Ahoy!

This was just posted on the FreeNRG Group by Bob Calloway.  It is the stuff!
Yarrr!!

http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/callow1.htm

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 03:08:53 2000
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Ross writes:
>This might be a luminol solution........I don't know.  But it is 
>interesting.  There are other solutions that can (and have) be added to SL 
>bubbles to increase luminscence and other effects.
>
>Sorry I don't read vortex much so miss some questions.
>
>rt

Right, I've got the URL for luminol buried somewhere in my archives, and
couldn't remember the name of it.  You haven't missed too much really on the
Vortex Group.  Pretty much the same ole, same ole. ;)  Pretty much
everybody's still driving cars, and griping about the gas prices.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: test
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Steve writes:
>I think you should hold off on the videoconferencing if that's how you plan
>to dress.
>
>Aghast,
>
>-Steve

I guess then that you would be one of those people that are aghast by
Rodin's The Thinker?

Knuke - The Stinker
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 03:48:21 2000
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References: <v02130505b5c8feff7775 [63.178.74.12]>	
 <39A3A79C.F22CC9A austininstruments.com>
 <v04210108b5c9673b650c [63.17.10.121]>
 <39A3CB6C.343CEAEA austininstruments.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:48:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "JNPCo." <josephnewman earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY
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>JNPCo. wrote:
>
> > Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not
> > merit the receiving of a patent?
>
>---
>
>If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile.
>
>However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
>with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
>allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.
>
>Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
>overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no?
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com


Dear John,

To specifically quote your words:

>"If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile."


Apparently, John, the bureaucrats at the patent office have chosen to 
differ with you.

According to the patent office, there was "novelty in the disclosure" 
since the technical aspects of the posted disclosure DO constitute A 
SPECIFIC PATENT THAT WAS ISSUED EARLIER THIS YEAR:

      ***********************
      ******* 6013963 *******
      ***********************

Best regards,

ERS







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 06:14:08 2000
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	 <008c01c00d44$cde136c0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <3.0.1.32.20000823180249.013525b8@earthtech.org>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> >George Holz wrote:
> 
> >> Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
> >> energy it takes to break the surface tension
> >> bonds at the top of the column. That energy
> >> should equal the energy of formation that
> >> allowed the water to be lifted initially.
> 
> That's certainly what our informal experiments with this system showed.  If
> you make a thin J-shaped capillary that rises up a distance and then curves
> over, you find that the water will be sucked up into the capillary filling
> the entire thing but it will hang there at the mouth and not drip out on
> its own...provided the mouth of the tube is above the water level in the
> source reservoir.

---

I tried making a "fountain" with a thin straight piece of tubing by
trying to lower the air end of the tubing to just below the meniscus. No
luck; the end of the tubing just pulled the meniscus down with it.

Then I tried lowering the surface tension of the water by mixing in a
little detergent. Still nothing.

Nature wins again!

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc..
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 06:59:38 2000
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JNPCo. wrote:
 
> P.S. No doubt you are aware that JN's never used the expression
> "perpetual motion" nor does he believe in the possibility of a
> so-called "perpetual motion" machine.  Nevertheless, John, I enjoy
> your sense of humor.  :-)

---

Thanks, Evan!

Not to open any old wounds, but ISTR that there _was_ the matter of
greater energy output than energy input?^)

Over the years I've thought about Joe's machine off and on, and wondered
if it did exhibit OU behavior, on occasion, what the cause could have
been.

Since the construction of the machine itself is mundane, it seems to me
that the only phenomenon capable of supporting anomalous behavior might
be the arcing/plasma generated at the commutator during switching.

Perhaps, if the timing was just right, space was being unbalanced a
little and enough ZPE was coming through to give the machine's armature
a little push?   

Maybe we can go fishing sometime ;-)

---

John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"Find a way or make a way"     http://www.overunitylabs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 07:23:05 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Henry's History
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Jed says that Tesla just didn't market himself properly, and that he could
>have done better, but if you look at the facts, the name Tesla was a
>household word back then.

No, I did not mean that. I realize he marketed himself and his products
well, and he garnered a lot of support from people like J. P. Morgan.
However, he was eccentric, and he drove investors away. He wasted his own
money and his investors' money on poorly planned projects. For example, he
built an expensive, huge tower to broadcast power, rather than
demonstrating the principle on a small scale first. He made ludicrous
claims that he was communication with other planets, that he could "split
the Earth like an apple," and that he had invented "a death ray capable of
destroying 10,000 airplanes at a distance of 250 miles (400 kilometers)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica) This kind of self destructive behavior and
out-of-control egomania is often seen today in pretenders who say they have
invented over unity devices, or they can cure cancer, or revolutionize
artificial intelligence overnight (to pick three random, totally unrelated
fields). On the other hand, people who really have discovered revolutionary
energy devices, like Fleischmann, Melvin Miles, or Mizuno are sensible,
grounded, believable and with-it. They are actually rather boring people.

As far as I know, the flamboyant technicolor flakes have contributed
nothing to the over-unity field. When you strip away the verbiage, razzle
dazzle, and obscure theory, their claims are either nonsense or they are
derived from research done by other people. ("Derived" is a polite way to
put it.) In general, the real scientists are not crazy, and the crazy
people are not scientists. There may be important exceptions like Tesla and
Newton, but so far, in the CF business, I have not met any.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 07:40:48 2000
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v02130505b5c8feff7775 [63.178.74.12]>	 <39A3A79C.F22CC9A@austininstruments.com> <v04210108b5c9673b650c@[63.17.10.121]> <39A3CB6C.343CEAEA@austininstruments.com> <v04210101b5ca2cb1e758@[63.17.10.24]>
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:37:20 -0400
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That patent certainly looks like Newman's motor, but I notice that it is not
assigned to Newman.

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
www.infinite-energy.com  ewall infinite-energy.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "JNPCo." <josephnewman earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY


> >JNPCo. wrote:
> >
> > > Are you implying, John, that such information would or would not
> > > merit the receiving of a patent?
> >
> >---
> >
> >If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
> >would be worthwhile.
> >
> >However, the disclosure merely describes a permanent magnet D.C. motor
> >with a voltage clamp across the commutator and windings designed to
> >allow the motor to run on a rather high D.C. voltage.
> >
> >Hardly novel, and quite a step down from the perpetual motion /
> >overunity machine Joe's been hawking for a good part of his life, no?
> >
> >---
> >
> >John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
> >El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
> >"I speak for my company"       http://www.overunitylabs.com
>
>
> Dear John,
>
> To specifically quote your words:
>
> >"If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
> >would be worthwhile."
>
>
> Apparently, John, the bureaucrats at the patent office have chosen to
> differ with you.
>
> According to the patent office, there was "novelty in the disclosure"
> since the technical aspects of the posted disclosure DO constitute A
> SPECIFIC PATENT THAT WAS ISSUED EARLIER THIS YEAR:
>
>       ***********************
>       ******* 6013963 *******
>       ***********************
>
> Best regards,
>
> ERS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 07:57:59 2000
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 <39A527DF.66BE43 austininstruments.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:50:25 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "JNPCo." <josephnewman earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Part II
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>JNPCo. wrote:
>
> > P.S. No doubt you are aware that JN's never used the expression
> > "perpetual motion" nor does he believe in the possibility of a
> > so-called "perpetual motion" machine.  Nevertheless, John, I enjoy
> > your sense of humor.  :-)
>
>Thanks, Evan!
>
>Not to open any old wounds, but ISTR that there _was_ the matter of
>greater energy output than energy input?^)

Who needs old wounds....let's both stay healthy!  Anyway, as I'm sure 
you realize, there's nothing "perpetual" about a system where:

external energy input + energy produced internally = external energy output

>
>Over the years I've thought about Joe's machine off and on, and wondered
>if it did exhibit OU behavior, on occasion, what the cause could have
>been.
>
>Since the construction of the machine itself is mundane, it seems to me
>that the only phenomenon capable of supporting anomalous behavior might
>be the arcing/plasma generated at the commutator during switching.
>
>Perhaps, if the timing was just right, space was being unbalanced a
>little and enough ZPE was coming through to give the machine's armature
>a little push?
>
>Maybe we can go fishing sometime ;-)

Great.... you bring the bait, i'll bring the tackle.  :-)

>
>John Fields,                   OverUnity Laboratories, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"Find a way or make a way"     http://www.overunitylabs.com


P.S. In case you might have missed the post:

Dear John,

To specifically quote your words:

>"If there was novelty in the disclosure, then perhaps pursuing a patent
>would be worthwhile."


Apparently, John, the bureaucrats at the patent office have chosen to 
differ with you.

According to the patent office, there was "novelty in the disclosure" 
since the technical aspects of the posted disclosure DO constitute A 
SPECIFIC PATENT THAT WAS ISSUED EARLIER THIS YEAR:

      ***********************
      ******* 6013963 *******
      ***********************

Best regards,

ERS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 08:08:54 2000
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:09:00 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b5ca3e656996 [207.8.127.125]>
References: <008c01c00d44$cde136c0$0c6cd626 varisys.com>
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I agree. The system is OU. It is not even necessary to wring the water
out. A vertical capillary tube or wick filled with water simply has more
gravitational energy than one without. (Someone should perhaps study the
nature of the capillary action itself to discover why, and not try to
make a 'Rube Goldburg' device out of it at this time. Do we have any
surface tension <italic>slash</italic> gravitational experts on this
panel? <<g>


Best Regards,

Colin Quinney


At 10:03 PM 08/23/00 -0500, you wrote:

>>Mitchell Jones wrote:

>>> Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)

>>>

>>Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the

>>energy it takes to break the surface tension

>>bonds at the top of the column?

>

>***{I can't speak for others, but I didn't think of it! :-( --MJ}***

>

> That energy

>>should equal the energy of formation that

>>allowed the water to be lifted initially.

>

>***{This I doubt. If you raise water a mile using a very fine system 
of

>capillary tubes, and then wring the tubes at the top with your hands,
you

>should be able to squish most of the water out. By your logic, the
higher

>the water went, the harder it would be to wring out. That flies in the
face

>of common sense. Thus all you appear to have demonstrated is that
Knuke's

>original suggestion about using a peristaltic pump at the top was
correct,

>and that I erred in thinking it would be possible to get by without 
it.

>(Sorry, Knuke.) The key point here is that the energy required to wring
out

>a foot of saturated tubing at the top would be the same regardless of
how

>high the capillary action had carried the fluid, and, thus, if you 
went

>high enough, the potential energy in the water that was wrung out 
would

>exceed the energy consumed by the pump when wringing it out. Hence the

>system would be OU. (Yes, I find that hard to believe, but that's the
way

>it looks to me at the moment. So what am I missing?) --MJ}***

>

>>-

>>George Holz                george varisys.com

>>Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East

>>Bound Brook, NJ          08805

>

>

>

>

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 08:09:16 2000
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From: josephnewman earthlink.net (JNPCo.)
Subject: THE REST OF THE STORY: THEFT OF TECHNOLOGY
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>Ed Wall writes:
>
>That patent certainly looks like Newman's motor, but I notice that it is not
>assigned to Newman.
>
>New Energy Research Laboratory
>Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
>PO Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
>www.infinite-energy.com  ewall infinite-energy.com


THE REST OF THE STORY:
Why has there been attempted plunder of Joseph Newman's technology?

The earlier email document entitled:

"JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY, Parts I and II"

is ACTUALLY from a recently-issued (1/11/2000) U.S. patent that has been
issued to ROY C. SHELTON, JR.!

U.S. PATENT NUMBER: 6013963

Now, you may well ask, "Who is Roy C. Shelton, Jr."?

Interestingly, Mr. Shelton learned of Joseph Newman's technology DIRECTLY
from Joseph Newman (AND from reading Joseph Newman's fundamental book, THE
ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN).

Mr. Roy C. Shelton's SIGNATURE is even featured on page 460 of Joseph
Newman's book, adjacent to the date: 9/6/94 WHICH IS ALSO IN MR. SHELTON'S
HANDWRITING --- **LONG** BEFORE MR. SHELTON EVER APPLIED FOR (JOSEPH
NEWMAN'S) PATENT!!!

As an employee of Lawrence Technological University, Mr. Shelton was the
individual responsible for arranging the Dynamometer Test of one of Joseph
Newman's prototypes at Lawrence Tech in the Fall of 1994.

Mr. Shelton signs his name to the results of that Dynamometer Test and BOTH
the results AND Mr. Shelton's signature are featured on page 460 of Joseph
Newman's book.  Those tests proved that Joseph Newman's energy machine
operated at a 700% (production) efficiency level, i.e., SEVEN TIMES MORE
ENERGY WAS GENERATED BY THE ENERGY MACHINE THAN WAS EXTERNALLY INPUTTED
INTO THE SYSTEM.

Soon after the Lawrence Tech corroboration of Joseph Newman's work, Mr.
Shelton left Lawrence Tech and seemingly "disappeared".  Now he has
resurfaced, having received a patent for Joseph Newman's technology.

As Joseph Newman has stated, "Mr. Shelton's 'patent' is not worth the paper
it is printed on."

It has been interesting to note that there have been several contradictory
classifications of individuals with respect to Joseph Newman's work:

1) Those who support and endorse his achievements.

2) Those who ignore his achievements.

3) Those who ridicule and attack his achievements.

4) Those who quietly plunder his achievements and attempt to claim them as
their own.

However, it has been said that "plunder is a high form of
'reverse-compliment'."  In other words, someone valued the technology and
recognized its true significance highly enough to plunder it.  Many of the
major innovations in history have also suffered similiar treatment:  first
the innovators are ignored; then they are ridiculed and attacked; then they
are plundered (by a different set of people from the ridiculers and
attackers); and, much later, the attitude of some is, "Well, what's so new
about 'such-and-such' .... EVERYBODY knows that!"

No, everybody does NOT know that --- not until it was originally
created/discovered by the original innovator.  It it any wonder that
throughout history many of our innovators have suffered for their original
discoveries?  The Wright Brothers had to contend with the theft of their
technology by Glenn Curtiss.  However, not only do the innovators lose
while they live, but also all of the rest of us in their future lose the
benefits of ADDITIONAL INNOVATIONS AND CREATIVE THOUGHT produced by such
innovators who often become discouraged by such ridicule, attack, or
plunder ... and finally give up.

Such treatment of our innovators must cease if we are to truly make
progress as a civilization.

As previously stated:

All Joseph Newman has sought is the equal opportunity to protect his
invention in the American marketplace via the patent system created by
those who are responsible for the U.S. Constitution.  Ironically, it would
not cost the American taxpayer a SINGLE PENNY to issue Joseph Newman a
patent for his invention, yet federal bureaucrats have spent MILLIONS of
dollars of taxpayer monies fighting AGAINST the technology.

www.josephnewman.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 08:40:38 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Please describe recent BLP energy devices
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Mike Carrell wants me to stop making snide comments about Mills. He wants
me to read the BLP web pages instead. I have tried that, but unfortunately
I have no idea what the web pages say. I understood the 1994 lecture at MIT
and most of the Fusion Technology papers describing Mills earlier work with
Ni CF. (He thinks it is not Ni CF, but I say it is.) His later research
into exotic chemicals and dark matter in interstellar space is over my
head. Also, to be honest, I could not care less about those subjects, so I
will not bother to wade through verbiage about theory to winnow out
descriptions of the energy devices.

I do not like asking for help, but will someone who has waded through this
material please tell me a few things, in plain English. I gather Mills
claims he has non-hydride energy generating systems, that is, devices which
are not cold fusion hydrides, and which produce energy beyond the limits of
conventional chemistry (more than ~18 eV per atom). Here are some
questions, which as far as I can tell are not addressed on the web page, or
if they are I did not find them or understand them:

What is the mass of reactant?

What is the ouput power: average, minimum, maximum? I gather there is no
input.

Total integrated energy?

Method of calorimetry? Type of calorimeter, sensitivity, margin of error.

Size and weight of the device?

Method of controlling or moderating the reaction?

What other laboratories have replicated or independently verified this
performance? Have they published, and if so where? I have no interest in
hearing about laboratories that verified speculation about dark matter,
just energy machines.

Where on the web page is this device described?


Let me clarify a couple of statements I made earlier, that apparently
confused a few people. Years ago, before it was confirmed that CF devices
produce "commensurate" helium, there were many theories floating around
that CF energy was actually caused by things like ZPE or shrinking hydrogen
atoms. I did not find these theories plausible or implausible; I am not
capable of judging such esoteric issues. However, I did ask Mills and
Farrell a few questions. They told me that their theory predicts that only
a little helium should be found, from limited nuclear reactions. Most of
the heat comes from hydrino formation. A few of the neutral hydrino
molecules penetrate ordinary hydrogen and produce nuclear reactions,
transmutations, tritium, trace radioactivity and so on. I asked if the
number of hydrinos would exceed the number of helium atoms from a nuclear
reaction, and they said it would. In other words, the energy produced by
one D-D reaction is much greater than energy yield from the formation of
two shrunken H atoms. Also, I think Farrell suggested that shrunken H2
molecules might be confused with He using some mass spectrometers. (Regular
H2 would not.)

That might have been true until late last year. The error bars in the
helium studies until then were large, leaving plenty of room for energy
contribution from hydrinos or other exotic sources. However, last year
McKubre and his collaborators finally succeeding in producing large amounts
of energy in closed cells, and they used some of the world's best mass
spectrometers to measure the helium-4, helium-3 and tritium. They found the
nuclear ash balances with the excess heat to an uncanny extent. The only
thing left for the theorists to figure out is how the nuclear reactions
occur. If I understand correctly, based on the ratio of heat to helium, the
most likely candidate would be D-D fusion, but other combinations of
fission and fusion reactions (transmutation of heavier elements), also
produces helium in roughly similar proportions. As Chris Tinsley used to
say, nature loves to make alpha particles.

Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the transmutation
data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer any need for
the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory. The missing nuclear
ash has turned up. If, as Farrell told me, hydrinos produce all but a small
fraction of the heat (say one-tenth), then the cells are producing ten
times too much helium. If McKubre is mistaking shrunken H2 for He, then
there is nowhere near enough "fake" He.

It may be that Mills has some kind of gadget which is totally different
from a hydride CF reactor, and perhaps this other gadget does produce
hydrinos. That's what I would like to hear about, but not from Mills. I'd
like to hear about it in plain English, unmixed with esoteric speculation
about theory.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 08:41:23 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Free Energy in switzerland .... Your comments please....
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:36:18 CDT
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I find the implications of inductance without a net field to be 
staggering...

OU here I come
Merlyn
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:37:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>I agree. The system is OU. It is not even necessary to wring the water
>out. A vertical capillary tube or wick filled with water simply has more
>gravitational energy than one without. (Someone should perhaps study the
>nature of the capillary action itself to discover why, and not try to make
>a 'Rube Goldburg' device out of it at this time. Do we have any surface
>tension slash gravitational experts on this panel? <g>
>
>Best Regards,
>Colin Quinney


***{This is a complicated problem, and my opinion keeps shifting back and
forth depending on whose comments I read last. The problem with Knuke's
idea of using rollers to squeeze water out at the top of the system is that
in order to increase the height to which the water is lifted, you need to
use tubes of smaller diameters. Result: the higher you go, the more tubes
you need to transport a given volume of water, and, thus, the more work you
have to do to squeeze the water out. Hence we need to quantify the work
done to squeeze the water out, in order to compare it to the potential
energy that is acquired when the water is lifted. Until we can do that, we
are guessing about whether this system is OU or not. To that end,
therefore, I offer the following:

(1) If water is squeezed out of a frictionless tube, the only opposing
force is surface tension, which resists the tendency of the water to bulge
out of the end of the tube. The opposing force which must be overcome is
2=BCrT, and the work  done to overcome it is 2=BCrTLn, where L is the length=
 of
tube that is squeezed by each stroke of the rollers and n is the number of
tubes.

(2) The potential energy acquired by moving a cylindrical volume of water
of length L to height h is [980=BC(r^2)Ld]h. Since d, the density of water,
is 1and since h =3D T/490r (as I demonstrated yesterday), we obtain
980=BC(r^2)L[T/490r =3D 2=BCrTL for the potential energy in ergs of a single
length of tubing, and, thus, the potential energy is 2=BCrTLn for all of the
tubes taken together.

Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of capillary
material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising the contained
water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is no gain. The
frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and, since real systems
are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that we build is going
to yield less useful energy than we put into it.

Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after all.
:-(

--Mitchell Jones}***


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<excerpt>I agree. The system is OU. It is not even necessary to wring
the water out. A vertical capillary tube or wick filled with water
simply has more gravitational energy than one without. (Someone should
perhaps study the nature of the capillary action itself to discover
why, and not try to make a 'Rube Goldburg' device out of it at this
time. Do we have any surface tension <italic>slash</italic>
gravitational experts on this panel? <<g>


Best Regards,

Colin Quinney

</excerpt>


***{This is a complicated problem, and my opinion keeps shifting back
and forth depending on whose comments I read last. The problem with
Knuke's idea of using rollers to squeeze water out at the top of the
system is that in order to increase the height to which the water is
lifted, you need to use tubes of smaller diameters. Result: the higher
you go, the more tubes you need to transport a given volume of water,
and, thus, the more work you have to do to squeeze the water out. Hence
we need to quantify the work done to squeeze the water out, in order to
compare it to the potential energy that is acquired when the water is
lifted. Until we can do that, we are guessing about whether this system
is OU or not. To that end, therefore, I offer the following:=20


(1) If water is squeezed out of a frictionless tube, the only opposing
force is surface tension, which resists the tendency of the water to
bulge out of the end of the tube. The opposing force which must be
overcome is 2=BCrT, and the work  done to overcome it is 2=BCrTLn, where L
is the length of tube that is squeezed by each stroke of the rollers
and n is the number of tubes.=20


(2) The potential energy acquired by moving a cylindrical volume of
water of length L to height h is [980=BC(r^2)Ld]h. Since d, the density
of water, is 1and since h =3D T/490r (as I demonstrated yesterday), we
obtain  980=BC(r^2)L[T/490r =3D 2=BCrTL for the potential energy in ergs of =
a
single length of tubing, and, thus, the potential energy is 2=BCrTLn for
all of the tubes taken together.


Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of capillary
material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising the
contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is no
gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and, since
real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that
we build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.=20


Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
all. :-(=20


--Mitchell Jones}*** =20

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 10:31:02 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Perhaps the problem can be beaten by using evaporation to extract the water
from the top of the capillary tubes.  It should be possible to do this
within normal thermodynamic efficiecies, say 60 percent, unless there is
some mechanism that prevents the water molecules from evaporating from
small(er) capillary openings.  A reduced pressure head can be obtained
passively by letting the weight of the water itself, in larger diameter
tubes on the way down, do the vacuum formation that evaporates the surface
water at the tops of the capillaries.  It takes only about 13 meters of
water to establish a vacuum.  Some energy would be required to exchange the
evaporator's heat (loss) with the hot water vapor in order to make it
condense in the larger tubes, or perhaps this could be done directly on the
outsides of the capillary tubes.

Even if this could be made to work, a device working solely on earth's
gravitational field would be huge and thus impractical due to the cost per
energy obtained.  Practical application probably requires formation of a
"capillary diode," some means to use capillary attraction over a short
range, say to drive a piston, that is directional or which has a positive
energy cycle.

Perhaps centrifugal force could boost the "gravitic potential" and make for
a smaller machine.  Also a possibility is to use a positive potential on
the capillary water surface to increase the rate of evaporation.  There is
no limit to the "cloak of complexity" that can obscure the reasons for
conservation of energy in such systems.  However, maybe some of these ideas
can be applied in a practical way to assist in water purification.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: The wobble effect
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>
>David  What is about a Whirlpool that generates electricity?  How?
>I'm not a high horse but I need some reason.  Start with the conservation
>laws.  If you can prove a point using them I will accept it.  This is what I
>have done and even then many reject what I am saying.  Except for perhaps
>Miley.  Yes a whirlpool is simple.  It is simple in that it Follows the Laws
>of Physics and conserves angular momentum.  Did you know that?  A Whirlpool
>is also complex in that it is an unstable system.
><snip>

I love it when I trigger a discussion.

This all started when I noticed the similarity between a whirlpool 
and the metal  cones of the Hammel motor. I still haven't noticed 
anyone commenting on their construction of a Hammel motor.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 10:33:46 2000
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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At 11:37 AM 08/24/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

<excerpt>Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of
capillary material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising
the contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is no
gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and, since
real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that we
build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.=20


Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
all. :-(=20


</excerpt>

I can't dispute any math, so let's forget about squeezing out the water.=20

Consider this: Cut a full tube at the bottom, seal it, and allow it to
fall. Which tube has more kinetic energy on impact--  an empty one, or a
full one?


Colin

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Subject: Re: BLP loses appeal against USPO
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> the IBM 360, and the Boeing 747 did not take ten years to
>commence sales, although they continued to lose money long after the
>initial product rollout. By normal business standards, the performance of
>BLP so far would be considered a disaster, and it would call for a top to
>bottom change in management.

Good point! Well, the fall is almost here. No one would be more 
pleased than me if Dr. Mills has an electrical generator all ready to 
roll out. My brother is an electrical contractor, and we would be in 
business next week hooking them up. Not to mention my house that I am 
going to heat through the next Minnesota winter. We shall see.

>

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Subject: Re: Free Energy in switzerland .... Your comments please....
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	If you take an inductor and shield it properly you can realize an
inductance with no net field.

	J 

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Adam Cox wrote:

> I find the implications of inductance without a net field to be 
> staggering...
> 
> OU here I come
> Merlyn
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 

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Jed wrote:
> earlier work with
> Ni CF. (He thinks it is not Ni CF, but I say it is.) His 

What you're missing is that Mills prepared identical cells, except for one
using potassium and one using sodium.  The sodium one was inert, whereas the
potassium one generated a reaction, as predicted by his theory.

> What is the mass of reactant?

I don't know--Mills gives the hydrogen pressure in the cell rather than the
mass.  I suppose we could calculate it.

> What is the ouput power: average, minimum, maximum? I gather 
> there is no
> input.

Input power is required to disassociate hydrogen, create the vacuum, raise
the temperature, and so forth.

> Total integrated energy?

Do you mean net output energy?  It varies according to the device.  

> Method of calorimetry? Type of calorimeter, sensitivity, 
> margin of error.
> 
> Size and weight of the device?
> 
> Method of controlling or moderating the reaction?

This may not answer all of your questions, but this is the latest/greatest
device:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/cell.html

A more detailed paper is here:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/plasma_cell.pdf

> What other laboratories have replicated or independently verified this
> performance? Have they published, and if so where? I have no 
> interest in
> hearing about laboratories that verified speculation about 
> dark matter,
> just energy machines.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/independent.html

I know that some of these have been validated by skeptics (e.g., Eric
Krieg).
 
> However, I did ask Mills and
> Farrell a few questions. They told me that their theory 
> predicts that only
> a little helium should be found, from limited nuclear 
> reactions. 

The idea is that hydrino nuclei can approach each other more closely due to
the smaller electron radius; thus increasing the rate of fusion.  They call
this Coloumbic Annihilation Fusion (CAF).

> Most of
> the heat comes from hydrino formation.

That is what they would expect.  I would hedge this by suggesting perhaps
certain cell designs could increase the CAF rate.  That way it's not even
wrong :)

> A few of the neutral hydrino
> molecules penetrate ordinary hydrogen and produce nuclear reactions,
> transmutations, tritium, trace radioactivity and so on.

Not quite--see my earlier description.  

> I asked if the
> number of hydrinos would exceed the number of helium atoms 
> from a nuclear
> reaction, and they said it would. In other words, the energy 
> produced by
> one D-D reaction is much greater than energy yield from the 
> formation of
> two shrunken H atoms.

Yes.

 Also, I think Farrell suggested that shrunken H2
> molecules might be confused with He using some mass 
> spectrometers. (Regular
> H2 would not.)

I don't know.

> That might have been true until late last year. The error bars in the
> helium studies until then were large, leaving plenty of room 
> for energy
> contribution from hydrinos or other exotic sources. However, last year
> McKubre and his collaborators finally succeeding in producing 
> large amounts
> of energy in closed cells, and they used some of the world's best mass
> spectrometers to measure the helium-4, helium-3 and tritium. 
> They found the
> nuclear ash balances with the excess heat to an uncanny 
> extent.

Out of curiousity, what was the mass ratio between tritium and helium?  Was
it consistent with conventional fusion?  CAF predicts a higher production of
tritium product than conventional fusion.

> Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the 
> transmutation
> data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer 
> any need for
> the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory.

Mills' hypothesis is required to explain his own experiments, unless someone
can come up with better explanations. 

> The 
> missing nuclear
> ash has turned up. If, as Farrell told me, hydrinos produce 
> all but a small
> fraction of the heat (say one-tenth), then the cells are producing ten
> times too much helium. If McKubre is mistaking shrunken H2 
> for He, then there is nowhere near enough "fake" He.

Agreed.  Maybe Mills/Farrell can't explain this phenomenon; maybe they'll
come back with CAF again.  In any case McKubre does not disprove the results
of Mills' experiments!

> It may be that Mills has some kind of gadget which is totally 
> different
> from a hydride CF reactor, and perhaps this other gadget does produce
> hydrinos. That's what I would like to hear about, but not 
> from Mills. I'd
> like to hear about it in plain English, unmixed with esoteric 
> speculation
> about theory.

I hope that this has been helpful.

Steven Florek

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Are you in the process of reinventing this, Horace?   :-)

 http://truth.wofford.edu/~whisnantdm/BirdWWW/DB_Prob.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 12:36:18 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Please describe recent BLP energy devices
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Florek, Steven wrote:

>This may not answer all of your questions, but this is the latest/greatest
>device:
>
>http://www.blacklightpower.com/cell.html

This says they have not measured the energy balance. That's what I saw last
time.

>> What other laboratories have replicated or independently verified this
>> performance? . . .

>
>http://www.blacklightpower.com/independent.html

This says that 33 other labs have seen "an energy gain," as large as
">100.0X Energy of combustion of Hydrogen." I presume that means 100 times
more than an equivalent mass of hydrogen, which yields 2 eV per atom. That
would be 200 eV per atom, which is indeed an order of magnitude beyond the
limits of chemistry. Now if I saw convincing papers from these other labs,
describing their calorimetry in detail, I might believe Mills.

I note, however, that one of the labs listed is "Hokkaido University" which
used "calorimetry" (unspecified type) to measure 3.4 X hydrogen energy,
whatever that means. 7 eV per atom? I think I have heard of most of the
work at Hokkaido U., and I do not know who BLP has in mind here. Perhaps
they are saying that Mizuno or one of the other groups doing glow discharge
lends support to their theory. That would be a surprise to the people at
Hokkaido, who think they are seeing nuclear effects, based on their mass
spec work with used cathodes. They do not attempt to collect effluent gas,
so I suppose they might be producing hydrinos without realizing it, but
without a check for hydrinos their work is not a conclusive "replication"
of BLP's claimed results.

I wonder how many of these 33 would agree that their work bolsters the BLP
claims, and how many of them were "replications" in the sense that they set
out to do an experiment similar to BLP's, based on a published description
and consultation with BLP, perhaps, and they saw the same result, including
hydrinos. This table is labeled "Independent Tests." They are very
independent indeed if these people have never heard of the BLP theory or
experiments, and they never looked for hydrinos, which are the principal
signature of the reaction according to Mills.


>Out of curiosity, what was [McKubre's] mass ratio between tritium and
helium?  Was
>it consistent with conventional fusion?  CAF predicts a higher production of
>tritium product than conventional fusion.

I think the ratio varied all over the place. It was not consistent with
conventional fusion. In one case, with the Arata cell, there was a huge
amount of tritium -- a thousand times more than the instrument had ever
measured before, and much more than it was designed to measure. However, in
other cases, I believe there is no detectable level of tritium.

The reaction is nothing like plasma fusion, but that has been obvious since
1985. It only produces tritium in certain modes of operation, still
unknown. The nuclear products vary with conditions, just as chemical
products vary with conditions.


>> Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the 
>> transmutation
>> data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer 
>> any need for
>> the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory.
>
>Mills' hypothesis is required to explain his own experiments, unless someone
>can come up with better explanations. 

His experiments reference in the above web page look a lot like the glow
discharge experiments at Hokkaido U. In that case, a better explanation is
at hand: the heat comes from nuclear reactions. That "explanation" is
sketchy at best. It has not been worked out in the kind of detail the Mills
theory has been. But there is lots of experimental evidence for it, at
least in Hokkaido, so I am confident it is correct.


>I hope that this has been helpful.
>
>Steven Florek

Very helpful! Thanks. I look forward to seeing a response from Mike Carrell
too, who explains things wonderfully well. (He has an unfair advantage:
it's a part time job with him.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 12:42:27 2000
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:40:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla's Elimination
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>, I had a much better text published by Harcort and Brace, but it
>didn't mention Tesla's work at all, either.  I gave that one to someone when
>I left Seattle. It was much more clumsy about how it got around it though.
>Both are still being used as college texts, as far as I know.  I think that
>it has nothing to do with the science or the marketing of the technology,
>and everything to do with making money off of it.  When the money people
>decide to bugger you, I guess yer buggered.
>
>Knuke

this discussion thread reminds me of what Richard Hoagland, 
http://www.enterprisemission.com has been talking about on Coast to 
Coast AM. The invisible government has been covering up artifacts on 
the Moon and Mars too. But it isn't the money people, who want to 
rewrite history, it's the Luciferians. What I can't figure out is 
what they hope to accomplish by this.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 12:42:46 2000
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:41:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: new design for a toxic waste incinerator
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I just heard about this company. They have a new design of toxic 
waste incinerator. http://www.zerosusa.com

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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:48:14 -0500
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>At 11:37 AM 08/24/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of capillary
>>material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising the
>>contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is no
>>gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and, since
>>real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that we
>>build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.
>>
>>Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
>>all. :-(
>>
>
>I can't dispute any math, so let's forget about squeezing out the water.
>Consider this: Cut a full tube at the bottom, seal it, and allow it to
>fall. Which tube has more kinetic energy on impact--  an empty one, or a
>full one?
>
>Colin


***{Yes, that was your original point, and it is correct. Following such a
line of thinking, let's suppose that we build a pipeline filled with n
capillary tubes of radius r which are able to raise water to a height h,
and that we run that pipeline from a river at the bottom of a canyon to the
top of the cliff a distance h above it. Now if we take a segment of that
sort of pipe of length L filled with the same capillary material, and raise
it, with no contained water, to the top of the cliff of height h, it will
acquire a potential energy of 980=BC(r^2)Lhn ergs due to our efforts.

If we then  drop it over the cliff, then when it reaches the surface of the
river below, it will, ignoring air friction, have a terminal velocity, Vt,
such that Vt =3D 980t. Since h =3D (Vt/2)t, it follows that t =3D 2h/Vt.
Substituting, we obtain Vt =3D 980(2h/Vt), which means Vt^2 =3D 980(2h). Sin=
ce
the kinetic energy possessed by the pipe segment when it reaches the bottom
is (1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln(Vt^2), substitution gives KE =3D (1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln[980(2h)]=
 =3D
980=BC(r^2)Lnh ergs--which means: the kinetic energy at the bottom is exactl=
y
equal to the potential energy at the top of the cliff.

However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of the
pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the passage of
sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it over the cliff,
it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the bottom than the work
we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would appear, again, that we have
"free energy."

So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***


>

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<excerpt>At 11:37 AM 08/24/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

<excerpt>Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of
capillary material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising
the contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is
no gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and,
since real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort
that we build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.



Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
all. :-(=20


</excerpt>

I can't dispute any math, so let's forget about squeezing out the
water.=20

Consider this: Cut a full tube at the bottom, seal it, and allow it to
fall. Which tube has more kinetic energy on impact--  an empty one, or
a full one?


Colin

</excerpt>


***{Yes, that was your original point, and it is correct. Following
such a line of thinking, let's suppose that we build a pipeline filled
with n capillary tubes of radius r which are able to raise water to a
height h, and that we run that pipeline from a river at the bottom of a
canyon to the top of the cliff a distance h above it. Now if we take a
segment of that sort of pipe of length L filled with the same capillary
material, and raise it, with no contained water, to the top of the
cliff of height h, it will acquire a potential energy of 980=BC(r^2)Lhn
ergs due to our efforts.=20


If we then  drop it over the cliff, then when it reaches the surface of
the river below, it will, ignoring air friction, have a terminal
velocity, Vt, such that Vt =3D 980t. Since h =3D (Vt/2)t, it follows that t
=3D 2h/Vt. Substituting, we obtain Vt =3D 980(2h/Vt), which means Vt^2 =3D
980(2h). Since the kinetic energy possessed by the pipe segment when it
reaches the bottom is (1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln(Vt^2), substitution gives KE =3D
(1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln[980(2h)] =3D 980=BC(r^2)Lnh ergs--which means: the kinetic
energy at the bottom is exactly equal to the potential energy at the
top of the cliff.=20


However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of
the pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the
passage of sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it
over the cliff, it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the
bottom than the work we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would
appear, again, that we have "free energy."=20


So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)


--Mitchell Jones}***



<excerpt>

</excerpt>

--============_-1244975981==_ma============--

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: new design for a toxic waste incinerator
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I just heard about this company. They have a new design of toxic 
>waste incinerator. http://www.zerosusa.com

Huh. Closed cycle burning. Molten Metal Technologies uses a simlar
technique. They dump the toxic waste into molten steel, which breaks it
down into elements, mostly gas, I guess. I think the difficulties are
containing the gas and separating out the elements. Their web site is
www.mmt.com, but it seems to be off the air at present.

- Jed

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Mitchell Jones wrote:
>However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
>material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of =
the
>pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the passage =
of
>sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it over the =
cliff,
>it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the bottom than the =
work
>we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would appear, again, that we =
have
>"free energy."
>
>So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)

The only problem is that in order to do that more than once, you have to =
either empty the pipe or use a new one.
Emptying it will take energy. Making a new one takes energy.

Of course, if you could get those pipes made and raised with "free" =
energy, you'd be ahead. How about some nanotechnology? Engineer =
something that builds itself into a structure of fine tubes that raise =
water... but that work has already been done: remember I mentioned trees =
a couple of days ago?... using sunlight to make those pipes and raise =
that water, coincidentally storing more energy (carbohydrates) in a huge =
variety of useable forms.

Okay, so you insist on having a falling mass from this to turn a wheel =
on your generator? plant an apple tree, rig a parachute in it to funnel =
the falling apples down onto the top of a waterwheel, thus turning the =
wheel. At the bottom of the wheel, there's a fermenter that turns the =
apples into alcohol (I'm sure Fred can do better conversion than that =
though). There's no end to the complexity you can add, but the basic =
fact is that Nature already has some pretty efficient mechanisms that =
utilize capillary water transport. If you're hung up on improving on =
that, you may be barking up the wrong tree ;-)

Dan Quickert
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 13:33:54 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Dan Quickert wrote:

>Okay, so you insist on having a falling mass from this to turn a wheel on
your >generator? plant an apple tree, rig a parachute in it to funnel the
falling >apples . . .

No, that isn't capillary action, as Fred and I pointed out yesterday.
That's solar energy. The water and material to form the apples would not
rise in the tree were it not for the evaporation from the leaves. There is
some "root pressure" as well, but evaporative transpiration is the main
source of energy, and it isn't "free." It's nuclear fusion! In ol' sol.

- Jed

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Vo,

Since I've been beating up on Jed for his comments about Mills, I will
endeavor to answer his questions to the best of my ability. Perhaps others
on vo can help.

> Mike Carrell wants me to stop making snide comments about Mills. He wants
> me to read the BLP web pages instead. I have tried that, but unfortunately
> I have no idea what the web pages say.

I've looked at the current web site, and it is drastically different that it
was when first launched, and different that several earlier editions which
contained more of the information that would make Jed more comfortable. I
owe him a partial apology for scolding him for not looking at the web site,
when it no longer contains information that would satisfy him. My position
is still that Jed is looking at Mills from an incorrect perspective. Mills
is doing some of the commercial type things that Jed has long advocated, but
not doing them in the way he wants. There is a detailed exposition of the
business plan on the web site, which contains many points of interest to
investors. I strongly recommend reading it. That summary is relatively
non-technical.

>I understood the 1994 lecture at MIT
> and most of the Fusion Technology papers describing Mills earlier work
with
> Ni CF. (He thinks it is not Ni CF, but I say it is.)

There is a paper on the current website about extracting hydrino hydrides
from a Ni-KCO-H2O cell. The cell is described, a large one run at high power
levels, at Thermacore. The heat output is claimed at 8 times the electric
power input, but details of the calorimetry are not given. One might assume
that since Thermacore is in the heat transfer business, their calorimetry is
adequate to detect a energy COP of 8. The main purpose of the runs were to
collect evidence for hydrino hydrides and to that end the electrolyte was
removed after a run, concentrated, and subject to a series of analytical
probes which are described in the paper, with the result that the presence
of shrunken hydrogen atoms was detected. I don't know these methods well
enough to critique them, so I will take the results at face value. The
cathode was in two parts, and inner and outer, formed form nickel wire. The
inner cathode was a toroid wound from 5000 meters of the wire; in one of the
analytical tests it was dissolved in acid.

> His later research
> into exotic chemicals and dark matter in interstellar space is over my
> head. Also, to be honest, I could not care less about those subjects, so I
> will not bother to wade through verbiage about theory to winnow out
> descriptions of the energy devices.

Jed is focused on energy devices, as Mills was at the beginning. The
business plan still includes 5Kw and megawatt reactors, but they are not on
the front burner. In a phone conversation with Mills a while back, while I
was preparing my review of BLP for IE, he told me that the megawatt level
reactors for power grid operation were difficult to sell in a time of cheap
energy. Indeed, it's not enough to build a megawatt reactor, which would
have to be approached in stages, one would have to qualify it by extended
runs -- years of runs -- before any utility would entrust it for grid power
production. Despite repeated demonstrations and measurements, there was
always a residue of doubt.

Production of hydrino hydrides -- carefully distinct from metal hydrides or
deuterides in CF processes -- gives an out. They can be examined by any
competent laboratory to determine their unique character, validating the
existence of hydrinos, and they can be tested by any materials-based company
for use in potential products. Some of these products may have extremely
high value, such as the projected battery. These are the tangible, useful
product of an exotic process which Jed has so long urged CF researchers to
produce. They are themselves not energy, but they can, in time, produce rich
cash flows.

Reactors to produce the chemicals will also produce abundant power as a
byproduct, which can be sold to utility grids. Eventual power reactors will
produce chemical byproducts which are more valuable than oil as chemical
feedstocks.

For these reasons, and significant scale up problems, the power reactors
have faded from the front page, which is why Jed can't find them now.
>
> I do not like asking for help, but will someone who has waded through this
> material please tell me a few things, in plain English. I gather Mills
> claims he has non-hydride energy generating systems, that is, devices
which
> are not cold fusion hydrides, and which produce energy beyond the limits
of
> conventional chemistry (more than ~18 eV per atom). Here are some
> questions, which as far as I can tell are not addressed on the web page,
or
> if they are I did not find them or understand them:

The web page has gone through several generations of reformatting. The
earlier versions, which I downloaded some time ago, had more details of
cells and processed than the current web page.
>
> What is the mass of reactant?

In most of the tests I know of, it has been a small cloud of hydrogen atoms
and ionized potassium atoms of no significant mass. Let me give a verbal
description of the cell principle. Scott Little tried to duplicate the BLP
process without success a year or so ago. You start with water and
electrolyze it, pass the hydrogen gas over a heated surface which breaks the
H2 molecules apart into H atoms. These atoms then diffuse into a cloud of
ionized potassium atoms. In that cloud there can be chance collisions
between the H atoms and two K+ atoms. In this close encounter of the three
atoms an energy transfer takes place; essentially the two K+ atoms present
an energy hole of just the right 'size' to accept the energy yielded if the
electron of the hydrogen atom drops one notch to a closer orbit. The K atoms
move away and the acquired energy appears as heat and extreme UV radiation.
The K atoms can then be re-ionized and participate in another reaction. The
shrunken H atoms, a Hydrino, can then acquire an electron and become a
hydrino hydride, it can join with another hydrino to form a molecule, or it
can also catalyze another hyrino to a still lower orbital state, with the
yield of more energy. There is an animation on the web site which
illustrates this process.

The main process yields much more energy than it takes to electrolyze the
water.

The determination of the existence of the energy yield and engineering an
efficient system are very different problems. Getting the process to work in
the vapor phase is tricky. If the pressure is too high, the H atoms will
recombine into H2 molecules and the energy transfer hole will not be there.
The newly formed hydrinos will have kinetic energy and may wander away
before they encounter another hydrino to continue the catalysis. The
hydrinos slip through metal containment vessels easier than hydrogen atoms
do. If you want to collect the energy as hot gas, then you want pressure,
which isn't the way to make the process work. If you want to collect the
radiation, you have to absorb the EUV radiation. And if you want the really
high energy yields, you have to confine the hydrinos so they can react with
each other.

None of this is easy engineering; lots of know-how required. It is as
difficult in its own way as getting power from CF cells or the Correa PAGD.
I suspect this is one reason Mills has steered away from power plants to
chemical production, and now onto the Gyrotron gambit, which bypasses heat
considerations.
>
> What is the output power: average, minimum, maximum? I gather there is no
> input.

There is input power necessary to electrolyze water, dissociate the H2 to
2H, ionize the potassium, overhead, etc. I don't think he has published test
data on experimental setups which themselves my not be OU because the
process is run at a low power level and is not optimized for efficiency. I
think power outputs in the hundreds of watts have been achieved, but these
are not packaged for sale to potential users.
>
> Total integrated energy?

In the range of hundreds of watts in some cases. There is a summary on the
'validations' page.
>
> Method of calorimetry? Type of calorimeter, sensitivity, margin of error.

Not known. Most of the cells have been embedded in support equipment, not
isolated for calorimetry. I don't know the proportion which comes out as
heat and how much as EUV. The latter requires specialized equipment to
measure, since the pressure in the reactor is below atmospheric and nearly
all windows are opaque at the EUV wavelengths.
>
> Size and weight of the device?

Lab setup. A gas cell itself may be less than a cubic foot.
>
> Method of controlling or moderating the reaction?

Cut off the support power and the reaction stops. Rate can be controlled by
the rate of fuel admission.
>
> What other laboratories have replicated or independently verified this
> performance?

See the BLP website, which lists labs that have verified data of various
kinds under the heading of 'Independent Verifications' listed under the site
map. These were under contract to BLP, so I'm not sure what results were
published elsewhere.

> Have they published, and if so where? I have no interest in
> hearing about laboratories that verified speculation about dark matter,
> just energy machines.
>
> Where on the web page is this device described?

> Let me clarify a couple of statements I made earlier, that apparently
> confused a few people. Years ago, before it was confirmed that CF devices
> produce "commensurate" helium, there were many theories floating around
> that CF energy was actually caused by things like ZPE or shrinking
hydrogen
> atoms. I did not find these theories plausible or implausible; I am not
> capable of judging such esoteric issues. However, I did ask Mills and
> Farrell a few questions. They told me that their theory predicts that only
> a little helium should be found, from limited nuclear reactions. Most of
> the heat comes from hydrino formation. A few of the neutral hydrino
> molecules penetrate ordinary hydrogen and produce nuclear reactions,
> transmutations, tritium, trace radioactivity and so on. I asked if the
> number of hydrinos would exceed the number of helium atoms from a nuclear
> reaction, and they said it would. In other words, the energy produced by
> one D-D reaction is much greater than energy yield from the formation of
> two shrunken H atoms. Also, I think Farrell suggested that shrunken H2
> molecules might be confused with He using some mass spectrometers.
(Regular
> H2 would not.)
>
> That might have been true until late last year. The error bars in the
> helium studies until then were large, leaving plenty of room for energy
> contribution from hydrinos or other exotic sources. However, last year
> McKubre and his collaborators finally succeeding in producing large
amounts
> of energy in closed cells, and they used some of the world's best mass
> spectrometers to measure the helium-4, helium-3 and tritium. They found
the
> nuclear ash balances with the excess heat to an uncanny extent. The only
> thing left for the theorists to figure out is how the nuclear reactions
> occur. If I understand correctly, based on the ratio of heat to helium,
the
> most likely candidate would be D-D fusion, but other combinations of
> fission and fusion reactions (transmutation of heavier elements), also
> produces helium in roughly similar proportions. As Chris Tinsley used to
> say, nature loves to make alpha particles.
>
> Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the transmutation
> data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer any need for
> the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory. The missing nuclear
> ash has turned up. If, as Farrell told me, hydrinos produce all but a
small
> fraction of the heat (say one-tenth), then the cells are producing ten
> times too much helium. If McKubre is mistaking shrunken H2 for He, then
> there is nowhere near enough "fake" He.
>
> It may be that Mills has some kind of gadget which is totally different
> from a hydride CF reactor, and perhaps this other gadget does produce
> hydrinos. That's what I would like to hear about, but not from Mills. I'd
> like to hear about it in plain English, unmixed with esoteric speculation
> about theory.
>
In the early 90s there was much speculation about how you could get heat
without radiation -- this issue still isn't settled, but you do so in  F&P,
Case, and Arata cells. That process of DD fusion is clearly nuclear of some
kind, producing transmutations, etc. QED.

Also in the early 90s, Mills got robust excess heat with no loading period
from his H2O-KCO3-Ni cells, following his hydrino theory. Much speculation
about mechanisms, since Mills' theory was and is controversial. In my
quibbling with Jed, I've tried to make it clear that the BLP process is
totally different from the nuclear processes in a CF cell. Mills has
maintained this from day one, even though there are words in the Australian
patent which suggest that shrunken H atoms might facilitate nuclear
processes in CF cells. That is no longer an issue.

The energy yield per atom for BLP is much greater than conventional
chemistry -- and most significantly, much greater than that needed to
electrolyze water -- but is less than that for a DD reaction in a Case,
Arata, or F&P cell.

The ***commercially significant*** difference is that BLP uses ordinary
water from any source, anywhere, as its primary fuel, the other elements,
potassium in one instance, are catalysts and are not consumed. The CF
processes are sensitive to surface chemistry, require prepared surfaces
which may be expendables in the process. While deuterium is available in
ample quantities from water everywhere, there is an energy investment in
isolating it, which must be charged against the energy output of CF
reactors. Same with the electrodes or target materials. It has been said
that if one sums the total energy investment in mining, refining, processing
the materials and construction of a nuclear power plant, that energy cost is
greater than what the plant will produce in its useful life. The overall
life cycle energy balance for CF is not clear.

The debates about Mills' orbitsphere model, his Grand Unified Theory, are
sideshows compared to the commercial moves. So much noise is being made that
it offers targets for enemies. Jed is right that Mills might be better
advised to be quiet about theory and simply produce the chemicals and energy
devices in a matter of fact way, but very quietly, and then talk theory when
there is product marching in the streets.

Mills has a very able board of directors and technically competent companies
have put substantial money up. The only hazard is gutting his patent
position, and there are a lot of appeals ahead. He is protected by filing
dates and long legal battles delaying the issue date work to his advantage,
for they prolong the effective life of the patent. I know one inventor who
delayed issuance from the 50's to the 70's on one of his patents, then went
around to collect from the Fortune 500 and counting. This man, Lemelson,
ranked third (after Edison and Land) in number of patents issued and was
worth some $500 million when he died. His estate continues to mine the
patent pool, recently going after all barcode readers.

Mike Carrell



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Sheesh, can't youse guys recognize a little humor poked at you?

Jed Rothwell said,

>No, that isn't capillary action, as Fred and I pointed out yesterday.
>That's solar energy.

Right. I know that water uptake in a tree isn't performed by capillary =
action alone. I'm an arborist.

The point being that none of the capillary action schemes will do diddly =
without energy input, and there's already a very cheap and benign system =
in place that lifts water and collects and stores energy. You're all =
spinning your wheels to figure out a way to use capillary action to =
generate "free" energy, and you come to the point where you realize to =
get any appreciable amount you're going to have to have a whole gang of =
microtubes, but then you have to worry how to get your sponges in them =
and how to squeeze them out or whatever... and then the energy balance =
doesn't look too good... when there's a natural mechanism that builds =
and utilizes microtube-like structures all around you, quietly and =
efficiently storing wads of energy.

If you want further obfuscation, read on:

You want to have a bunch of water travel up a bunch of tubes, and then =
extract energy from the system. But you have to get the water out of =
those tubes and it doesn't want to come out. So you need a little =
process to pull the water out. But that takes energy -- but you don't =
want to put any good energy in; otherwise what's the point? So cheat a =
little - use solar energy to fuel the process. Put a bunch of solar =
collectors up there to power everything. Well then maybe you figure out =
that there's more energy available in the solar collection than in the =
k.e. of the water, as long as you can maximize the light-collecting =
surface. But the light is constantly changing direction,  so you need to =
build in sun-tracking ability into each element, figure some algorithm =
for optimizing placement of those collector elements. And the surfaces =
get dirty or worn out and need cleaning or replacing constantly to =
maintain efficiency. A real maintenance headache, and expensive, =
unless... hey, maybe you can manufacture them on site - but with what? =
All there is around here is water and sun and air and a few trace =
elements... Stop right there, folks, it's already been designed and it =
isn't version 2.0 - go plant a tree!

ok, I'm done now.

-Dan Quickert
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 15:29:41 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Please describe recent BLP energy devices
In-Reply-To: <001801c00e26$72a78060$bc7accd1 MikeCarrell>
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>There is a paper on the current website about extracting hydrino hydrides
>from a Ni-KCO-H2O cell. The cell is described, a large one run at high power
>levels, at Thermacore. The heat output is claimed at 8 times the electric
>power input, but details of the calorimetry are not given. One might assume
>that since Thermacore is in the heat transfer business, their calorimetry is
>adequate to detect a energy COP of 8.

That's an okay working assumption for the first few months, but after a
while you must see the nitty gritty details. When I first heard that
McKubre was getting excess heat from the Case cell, I was content to trust
McKubre's ability to do calorimetry. He revealed details months later. If
he had not, the claim would no longer be credible.


> In a phone conversation with Mills a while back, while I
>was preparing my review of BLP for IE, he told me that the megawatt level
>reactors for power grid operation were difficult to sell in a time of cheap
>energy.

That's preposterous. That's like saying there is no market for automobiles
when we have trains and bicycles, or no need for microcomputers when the
market for minicomputers is saturated. (People did say that back in 1895
and 1978, and it was preposterous then, too.)


> Indeed, it's not enough to build a megawatt reactor . . .

Indeed, it would be the stupidest thing imaginable for BLP to TRY to build
a megawatt reactor! Or to talk about it. That would be going into
competition with General Electric and Mitsubishi, which is like leading six
men armed with bamboo spears against 5,000 Marines.


>production. Despite repeated demonstrations and measurements, there was
>always a residue of doubt.

It was more than a "residue!" Only a fool would believe the results they
have shown so far. The data is interesting, but not compelling, and of
course it has not been replicated, so it does not mean anything yet.


>In most of the tests I know of, it has been a small cloud of hydrogen atoms
>and ionized potassium atoms of no significant mass. Let me give a verbal
>description of the cell principle. Scott Little tried to duplicate the BLP
>process without success a year or so ago. . . .

Yeah, I followed that. They should estimate the mass, though, and measure
the energy balance. They say they have not, which is mind-boggling.


>The main process yields much more energy than it takes to electrolyze the
>water.

They think. But they have not verified that, after years of work!


>> What other laboratories have replicated or independently verified this
>> performance?
>
>See the BLP website, which lists labs that have verified data of various
>kinds under the heading of 'Independent Verifications' listed under the site
>map. These were under contract to BLP, so I'm not sure what results were
>published elsewhere.

I doubt Hokkaido U. has any connection with BLP. They cannot negotiate a
contract, and they are not allowed to keep results secret. They did not
look for hydrinos. The others I do not know about. Since I cannot read
their reports, their claims do not exist, from my point of view. To make a
long story short, there have been no replications, so no one should believe
any of these claims.


>Also in the early 90s, Mills got robust excess heat with no loading period
>from his H2O-KCO3-Ni cells, following his hydrino theory. Much speculation
>about mechanisms, since Mills' theory was and is controversial. In my
>quibbling with Jed, I've tried to make it clear that the BLP process is
>totally different from the nuclear processes in a CF cell.

It CANNOT be different. The same material are under the same conditions.
Either Mills is wrong, and he did not measure hydrinos, or these other
people working with Ni were wrong, and they never saw transmutations. I
don't know of anyone who has looked for helium with Ni, per se, so I'll
grant that is an open question, but I find it all-but-impossible to believe
that Ni CF is fundamentally different from Au, Pd or Pt CF. That's like
saying that fission if U is nothing like fission in Pu, even the radiation,
half-lives, conditions and products look so similar.


>The ***commercially significant*** difference is that BLP uses ordinary
>water from any source, anywhere, as its primary fuel, the other elements,
>potassium in one instance, are catalysts and are not consumed.

That does not seem commercially significant to me. The difference in cost
between ordinary water and heavy water would have no measurable effect on
the cost of CF energy.


> The CF
>processes are sensitive to surface chemistry, require prepared surfaces
>which may be expendables in the process.

I am sure the "BLP process" does too. Especially the one which happens to
be CF. The gas state process I cannot judge. Neither can they, as it
happens. For all anyone knows, it produces a pretty light and no excess
energy!


>Mills has a very able board of directors and technically competent companies
>have put substantial money up.

I hope so. It is astounding that they have countenanced such an
unprofessional web page presentation. Technically competent companies like
IBM do sometimes stumble, and produce inexplicable mistakes like the PCjr.


>The only hazard is gutting his patent
>position, and there are a lot of appeals ahead.

I can think of about a hundred other serious hazards, starting with the
competition, the hostility of the Scientific Establishment, and the
liability involved caused by low-level nuclear reactions, which is what
this is, despite the double-talk about hydrinos. (I think it is, and most
scientists and regulators will agree once they see the performance. There
is no chance BLP will be allowed to sell these things to the general
public.) The worst hazard is that the man in charge appears to have no
earthly notion of how a business should be run. I would not invest a dime
in the company based on what I have seen on the web site. It could easily
be made convincing, if they would go to the trouble to measure the energy
balance and commission a few open, legitimate independent verifications. As
it is they seem to be working overtime to make themselves look bad. The web
site looks like an business school textbook example of negative PR, or a
deliberate attempt to frighten investors.


>He is protected by filing
>dates and long legal battles delaying the issue date work to his advantage,
>for they prolong the effective life of the patent.

As long as he is fighting the APS, the DoE and the Scientific
Establishment, there is not one chance in a million he will be granted a
patent or allowed to set up in business. It would be like a  doctor trying
to sell elixir of immortality. The FDA and the AMA would never allow it!

I now recall why I have not spent much time looking at this web page. It
makes me cringe with embarrassment. As an advertisement or a document to
give investors and customers confidence, it is a parody of what a real
company would write. It is a sick joke. Every aspect of it, from the
presentation to the descriptions of the experiments and priorities, is
ass-backwards. Any freshman at a junior college business school would spot
the mistakes I have listed, and many others.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 15:45:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:47:34 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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At 1:24 PM 8/24/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Are you in the process of reinventing this, Horace?   :-)
>
> http://truth.wofford.edu/~whisnantdm/BirdWWW/DB_Prob.htm


Old timers here will of course remember the drinking bird thread of long
ago.  No I am not trying to revive the thread.  I have in mind a closed
system.

If evaporation eqilibrium is shifted for the water surface at the top of
the capillaries, then a low pressure still can be made that evaporates
water and condenses it at the top of a capillary bundle.  The pool of water
evaporated should be cooled by the process, yielding an ou process.  The
return water should be warmer, thus a thermal gradient can be maintained.
Depending on the vapor pressure differences, i.e. on poullutant
concentrations, it might be possible to distill water without using
external energy.

On the other hand, if evaporation equilibrium is not shifted, then, since
heat of vaporization is equal to heat of condensation,  it should be
possible (using a small amount of energy) to condense water in the vicinity
of the top of the capillary stack without any significant change of
temperature at the top, and this process should occur regardless the height
of the capillary stack, so at some height the process sould be ou.  The
"fall" of the water can easily be used to help pull a vacuum at the top and
thus to increase the evaporation rate at the top of the stack.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 16:00:09 2000
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Ahoy!

Thanks for all the comments on this.  I got a couple of private e-mails, and
I was waiting for permission to post this but here it is.

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Campus/5387/idea001.html

The idea works, at least over short heights, and has been demonstrated quite
well by Dave Dameron.  I also understand that it is already being sold in
France to water plants.  Mabye someone should send one to the US Patent
office as a joke.  Send another one a week later, and say it has been
replicated.

There are still some possibilities there I think for generating power from
it, but I'll get to those in a while.  Dan Quickert and Horace have hit upon
something that may be useful with the solar collection, and evaporation
ideas.  A large number of expensive nanotubes would not be necessary for
this to work, as just about any hydrophilic ceramic or spun thread would do
just fine.  Water would not necessarily need to be the working fluid either.

Ideally, in a closed system, the outside of a pipe filled with a wicking
material could be painted black and the heat from the sun would evaporate
the working fluid into a vapor which could drive a turbine.  The vapor could
then be channelled back to the ground to the cooler liquid, and it would
recondense, like in the rocking bird.  If a self centering turbine were
inside the pipe just above the wicking material, and magnets were put on the
perimeter of the blades, then external coils could be used to pick up the
energy.  That section of the pipe of course would have to be made of a
magnetically transparent material such as plastic, and the Curie temp of
magnets would have to be higher than the vapor temp of the working fluid. If
the energy collected were used for a "variable voltage friendly"
application,  this could be built one time, and you could walk away from it
for 50 years without worry or maintenance.  In all, it would be cheaper and
less complicated than most solar systems, and more durable than most wind
turbine systems.  I don't think it would have to be built that high either.

There are variations that could improve performance as well.  Thermocouples
could be put into the lower liquid chamber and the heat collected during the
day could generate power at night with no moving parts.

I guess my only question about this now would be is this powered by Van der
Waals forces, surface tension, gravity attraction or ZPE?  All of the above?

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 16:14:55 2000
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Jed wrote:
> However, last year
> McKubre and his collaborators finally succeeding in producing large amounts
> of energy in closed cells, and they used some of the world's best mass
> spectrometers to measure the helium-4, helium-3 and tritium. They found the
> nuclear ash balances with the excess heat to an uncanny extent.
-
I think that we need to separate the things we know about Ni/H2O cold
fusion from the things we know about Pd/D2O or Pd/D cold fusion.
McKubre's recent work shows that the Pd/D system is definitely
producing He as its principal product and cold fusion is certainly an
appropriate description of the process. It is also possible that shrunken
D atoms (D*) are involved at an intermediate stage in this process, but
this would be pure speculation at this time.
When we look at Ni/H2O energy output, this correspondence between He
and generated excess heat has not been determined. It is much less
likely for He to be formed from H because of the extra neutrons required to
form the He. When Mills runs Ni/H2O/K2CO3 experiments, he finds evidence
for hydrino compounds and no tritium. When he runs Ni/D2O/K2CO3
experiments, significant amounts to tritium are found. Possibly He and
tritium would account for most of the heat generation in these experiments,
but no attempt has been made to measure He output and few experiments have
been done with Ni/D2O/K2CO3.
All of Mills' recent work has been with H2 gas cells. He has found several
more catalysts that work well at temperatures of about 700C. It is difficult to
do calorimetry on these systems. One way energy output has been verified
the generation of plasma in these cells by very tiny amounts of input
electrical excitation causing 2,000 times the expected UV and visible light
output. The plasma is formed in some cases by voltages as low as 2 volts
and currents of less than 1 mA. From a plasma generation perspective,
these results absolutely demand new physics as an explanation and clearly
generate excess energy.
-
> Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the transmutation
> data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer any need for
> the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory.
-
So the current CF theory is perfect? We don't need any further explanation?
I don't think that McKubre would agree.
Hydrinos can explain the nuclear processes detected in these experiments
since highly shrunken hydrinos can behave like neutrons and pass through
the coulonb barrier. Since the energy of these hydrinos is less than that
of an actual neutron, nuclear remediation and high energy radiation free
transmutation might be explained.
-
> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>These atoms then diffuse into a cloud of
> ionized potassium atoms. In that cloud there can be chance collisions
> between the H atoms and two K+ atoms. In this close encounter of the three
> atoms an energy transfer takes place; essentially the two K+ atoms present
> an energy hole of just the right 'size' to accept the energy yielded if the
> electron of the hydrogen atom drops one notch to a closer orbit.
-
The K ion plus K atom process still seems to be the preferred explanation for
the
H2O based work, but Mills seems to use multiple ionization of a single
K atom to explain his latest gas experiments. All of the other gas phase
catalysts mentioned are single atom reactions as well.
>
> The determination of the existence of the energy yield and engineering an
> efficient system are very different problems. Getting the process to work in
> the vapor phase is tricky. If the pressure is too high, the H atoms will
> recombine into H2 molecules and the energy transfer hole will not be there.
> The newly formed hydrinos will have kinetic energy and may wander away
> before they encounter another hydrino to continue the catalysis. The
> hydrinos slip through metal containment vessels easier than hydrogen atoms
> do. If you want to collect the energy as hot gas, then you want pressure,
> which isn't the way to make the process work. If you want to collect the
> radiation, you have to absorb the EUV radiation. And if you want the really
> high energy yields, you have to confine the hydrinos so they can react with
> each other.
-
With some catalysts, highly shrunken hydrinos are obtained in a single step,
and multiple reactions are not required for high energy yield. I don't think
that
the hydrinos are escaping from the vessels, they are, however, forming
hydrino hydrides and combining chemically with the H, the catalyst, and the
walls.
-
> None of this is easy engineering; lots of know-how required. It is as
> difficult in its own way as getting power from CF cells or the Correa PAGD.
> I suspect this is one reason Mills has steered away from power plants to
> chemical production, and now onto the Gyrotron gambit, which bypasses heat
> considerations.
-
This is nowhere near as difficult as CF. The large power plants may be on
the back burner, but the smaller home size units are still in active
development.
-
> The debates about Mills' orbitsphere model, his Grand Unified Theory, are
> sideshows compared to the commercial moves. So much noise is being made that
> it offers targets for enemies. Jed is right that Mills might be better
> advised to be quiet about theory and simply produce the chemicals and energy
> devices in a matter of fact way, but very quietly, and then talk theory when
> there is product marching in the streets.
-
Agreed
-
Regards,
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 16:40:20 2000
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Thomas writes:

>David  What is about a Whirlpool that generates electricity?  How?

The wobble.  Because there is a secondary force of gravity generated when an 
object spins, called frame dragging.

>I'm not a high horse but I need some reason.  Start with the conservation 
>laws.  If you can prove a point using them I will accept it.

When energy is properly defined as gravity and heat is properly defined as a 
static event, energy is conserved, and can be calculated by standard gravity 
equations.

Far example, if you compare the "known" thermodynamic energy in a container 
of propane, and you measure the mass and speed of a hot air balloon going 
around the world, add in any energy of motion you wish coming from wind, 
solar radiation, and in no way will the conservation of energy equations be 
met using our present heat based paradigm.  There is no way that much mass 
can travel that speed around the world on the energy in a few tanks of 
propane.

One can make the comparison to a sailing ship.  Count the wind speed.  And 
buoyancy is not counted as a given force of nature.  Bouyancy is gravity 
powered relative density displacement.  Gravity make bubbles rise.

Whirlpower will fit conservation of energy equations under the cosmological 
constant, so will hurricanes and spiral galaxies.

What currently does not fit known conservation of energy equations are 
hurricanes and spiral galaxies.

I am saying energy is not properly defined under a thermodynamic perception.

Gravity makes bubble rise.  Gravity "causes" evaportion. Not heat.

Heat only sets density off balance, then gravity balances the scales of 
density.

>This is what I have done and even then many reject what I am saying.  
>Except for perhaps Miley.  Yes a whirlpool is simple.  It is simple in that 
>it Follows the Laws of Physics and conserves angular momentum.  Did you 
>know that?

The reserach has yet to find any whirlpools ever built by man and tested in 
a scientific manner.  Many tornado type vorticies, but no whirlpools.  So 
your statement has no scientific backing.

<A Whirlpool is also complex in that it is an unstable system.

Again, there is no fact to back up this statement found over 10,000 archived 
pages and exhaustive research.

>><snip>
>
>I love it when I trigger a discussion.
>
>This all started when I noticed the similarity between a whirlpool
>and the metal  cones of the Hammel motor. I still haven't noticed
>anyone commenting on their construction of a Hammel motor.

I commented the cone relates to tornado type vortex science.  The cone 
appears to be all science has ever recognized.  It is like they can see a 
tornado but have never seen a hurricane.  I think your comments are 
excellent, definately way above what I have seen here before.  You and Robin 
seem to be looking at the right things.

David

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Tesla's Elimination
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You can bet the Luciferians and the money folks have everything based and 
betted on burning lots more oil, no new clean energy, and a finite universe 
model.  Lucifer can't claim to be God in an infinite Universe.  Or explain a 
saucer going faster than light speed.

Only if he "knows it all".

David


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Tesla's Elimination
>Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:40:39 -0500
>
>>, I had a much better text published by Harcort and Brace, but it
>>didn't mention Tesla's work at all, either.  I gave that one to someone 
>>when
>>I left Seattle. It was much more clumsy about how it got around it though.
>>Both are still being used as college texts, as far as I know.  I think 
>>that
>>it has nothing to do with the science or the marketing of the technology,
>>and everything to do with making money off of it.  When the money people
>>decide to bugger you, I guess yer buggered.
>>
>>Knuke
>
>this discussion thread reminds me of what Richard Hoagland,
>http://www.enterprisemission.com has been talking about on Coast to
>Coast AM. The invisible government has been covering up artifacts on
>the Moon and Mars too. But it isn't the money people, who want to
>rewrite history, it's the Luciferians. What I can't figure out is
>what they hope to accomplish by this.
>

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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:16:28 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>>At 11:37 AM 08/24/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>>Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of capillary
>>>material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising the
>>>contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is no
>>>gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and, since
>>>real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that
>>>we build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.
>>>
>>>
>>>Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
>>>all. :-(
>>>
>>
>>I can't dispute any math, so let's forget about squeezing out the water.
>>Consider this: Cut a full tube at the bottom, seal it, and allow it to
>>fall. Which tube has more kinetic energy on impact--  an empty one, or a
>>full one?
>>
>>Colin
>
>
>***{Yes, that was your original point, and it is correct. Following such a
>line of thinking, let's suppose that we build a pipeline filled with n
>capillary tubes of radius r which are able to raise water to a height h,
>and that we run that pipeline from a river at the bottom of a canyon to
>the top of the cliff a distance h above it. Now if we take a segment of
>that sort of pipe of length L filled with the same capillary material, and
>raise it, with no contained water, to the top of the cliff of height h, it
>will acquire a potential energy of 980=BC(r^2)Lhn ergs due to our efforts.

***{After I posted the above, I headed off to get a hamburger, and, about
halfway there, it occurred to me that I left out d, the density of the air
within the empty capillary tubes. The correct potential energy would be
980=BC(r^2)Ldhn ergs. (I didn't need d in the formulas I used earlier,
because the density of water is 1. However, the density of the air in an
empty tube is much less than 1, so a symbol for density is required here.)
--MJ}***

>
>
>If we then  drop it over the cliff, then when it reaches the surface of
>the river below, it will, ignoring air friction, have a terminal velocity,
>Vt, such that Vt =3D 980t. Since h =3D (Vt/2)t, it follows that t =3D 2h/Vt=
=2E
>Substituting, we obtain Vt =3D 980(2h/Vt), which means Vt^2 =3D 980(2h). Si=
nce
>the kinetic energy possessed by the pipe segment when it reaches the
>bottom is (1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln(Vt^2), substitution gives KE =3D
>(1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln[980(2h)] =3D 980=BC(r^2)Lnh ergs--which means: the kinetic
>energy at the bottom is exactly equal to the potential energy at the top
>of the cliff.

***{For the reason given above, d is also required here. There is also, of
course, the potential energy of the mass of the pipe and capillary
material, but since that doesn't change regardless of whether the capillary
tubes are saturated or unsaturated, I chose to ignore it. --MJ}***

>
>
>However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
>material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of
>the pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the passage
>of sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it over the
>cliff, it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the bottom than
>the work we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would appear, again, that
>we have "free energy."
>
>So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***

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<excerpt><excerpt>At 11:37 AM 08/24/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

<excerpt>Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of
capillary material is 2=BCrTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising
the contained water to that height is 2=BCrTLn, it follows that there is
no gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of exactly 1.0, and,
since real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort
that we build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into
it.



Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after
all. :-(=20


</excerpt>

I can't dispute any math, so let's forget about squeezing out the
water.=20

Consider this: Cut a full tube at the bottom, seal it, and allow it to
fall. Which tube has more kinetic energy on impact--  an empty one, or
a full one?


Colin

</excerpt>


***{Yes, that was your original point, and it is correct. Following
such a line of thinking, let's suppose that we build a pipeline filled
with n capillary tubes of radius r which are able to raise water to a
height h, and that we run that pipeline from a river at the bottom of a
canyon to the top of the cliff a distance h above it. Now if we take a
segment of that sort of pipe of length L filled with the same capillary
material, and raise it, with no contained water, to the top of the
cliff of height h, it will acquire a potential energy of 980=BC(r^2)Lhn
ergs due to our efforts.

</excerpt>

***{After I posted the above, I headed off to get a hamburger, and,
about halfway there, it occurred to me that I left out d, the density
of the air within the empty capillary tubes. The correct potential
energy would be 980=BC(r^2)Ldhn ergs. (I didn't need d in the formulas I
used earlier, because the density of water is 1. However, the density
of the air in an empty tube is much less than 1, so a symbol for
density is required here.) --MJ}***


<excerpt>


If we then  drop it over the cliff, then when it reaches the surface of
the river below, it will, ignoring air friction, have a terminal
velocity, Vt, such that Vt =3D 980t. Since h =3D (Vt/2)t, it follows that t
=3D 2h/Vt. Substituting, we obtain Vt =3D 980(2h/Vt), which means Vt^2 =3D
980(2h). Since the kinetic energy possessed by the pipe segment when it
reaches the bottom is (1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln(Vt^2), substitution gives KE =3D
(1/2)=BC(r^2)Ln[980(2h)] =3D 980=BC(r^2)Lnh ergs--which means: the kinetic
energy at the bottom is exactly equal to the potential energy at the
top of the cliff.

</excerpt>

***{For the reason given above, d is also required here. There is also,
of course, the potential energy of the mass of the pipe and capillary
material, but since that doesn't change regardless of whether the
capillary tubes are saturated or unsaturated, I chose to ignore it.
--MJ}***


<excerpt>=20


However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of
the pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the
passage of sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it
over the cliff, it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the
bottom than the work we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would
appear, again, that we have "free energy."=20


So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)


--Mitchell Jones}***

</excerpt>

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>However, if instead of dropping the pipeline segment with the capillary
>>material over the cliff immediately, we instead attach it to the end of the
>>pipeline running to the bottom of the cliff, it will after the passage of
>>sufficient time saturate with water, and if we then drop it over the cliff,
>>it will have *more* kinetic energy when it reaches the bottom than the work
>>we did to raise it to the top. Thus it would appear, again, that we have
>>"free energy."
>>
>>So what is wrong with *this* reasoning? :-)
>
>The only problem is that in order to do that more than once, you have to
>either empty the pipe or use a new one.
>Emptying it will take energy. Making a new one takes energy.

***{Why not just let the water evaporate out of the saturated pipe? You
would need a low humidity area, of course, but there are lots of canyons in
such areas. (The Grand Canyon, for example.) Once the capillary material in
the pipe has dried out, you take it back to the top again, and repeat the
cycle. Of course, just dropping the pipe over the edge is no good, except
as a "thought experiment" to verify the principle, because the thing would
be destroyed when it hit the bottom. To actually use this approach to
construct a working OU device, you would need a non-destructive way to
extract the energy.

Here is a thought: set up a cable and pulley  system, using the weight of
the saturated section of pipe to hoist up a dry section, plus some freight,
from the bottom of the canyon. Once the saturated pipe section is at the
bottom, you remove the unsaturated section and the freight from the top,
then remove the saturated section from the bottom and replace it with a
new, unsaturated section, then you attach the unsaturated section at the
top to the water conduit until it is saturated, and repeat the proces.
Result: an OU elevator system--or so it would seem! (I still have my
doubts, but at the moment I don't see a flaw.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Of course, if you could get those pipes made and raised with "free"
>energy, you'd be ahead. How about some nanotechnology? Engineer something
>that builds itself into a structure of fine tubes that raise water... but
>that work has already been done: remember I mentioned trees a couple of
>days ago?... using sunlight to make those pipes and raise that water,
>coincidentally storing more energy (carbohydrates) in a huge variety of
>useable forms.
>
>Okay, so you insist on having a falling mass from this to turn a wheel on
>your generator? plant an apple tree, rig a parachute in it to funnel the
>falling apples down onto the top of a waterwheel, thus turning the wheel.
>At the bottom of the wheel, there's a fermenter that turns the apples into
>alcohol (I'm sure Fred can do better conversion than that though). There's
>no end to the complexity you can add, but the basic fact is that Nature
>already has some pretty efficient mechanisms that utilize capillary water
>transport. If you're hung up on improving on that, you may be barking up
>the wrong tree ;-)
>
>Dan Quickert

***{It would certainly be worthwhile to study capillary transport in living
systems, in connection with the attempt to build a capillary-based OU
system. As I mentioned the other day, one of the drawbacks of such a system
would be the tendency of the capillary tubes to become clogged, either with
chemicals left behind when the water evaporates, or else with materials
deposited inside the tubes by microbes. Living systems, to the extent that
they use capillary transport, must have solutions to the clogging problem.
By studying them, those solutions could be identified. --MJ}***


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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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Horace wrote:
>Old timers here will of course remember the drinking bird thread of long
>ago.  No I am not trying to revive the thread.  I have in mind a closed
>system.
>
>If evaporation eqilibrium is shifted for the water surface at the top of
>the capillaries, then a low pressure still can be made that evaporates
>water and condenses it at the top of a capillary bundle.  The pool of water
>evaporated should be cooled by the process, yielding an ou process.  The
>return water should be warmer, thus a thermal gradient can be maintained.
>Depending on the vapor pressure differences, i.e. on poullutant
>concentrations, it might be possible to distill water without using
>external energy.
>
>On the other hand, if evaporation equilibrium is not shifted, then, since
>heat of vaporization is equal to heat of condensation,  it should be
>possible (using a small amount of energy) to condense water in the vicinity
>of the top of the capillary stack without any significant change of
>temperature at the top, and this process should occur regardless the height
>of the capillary stack, so at some height the process sould be ou.  The
>"fall" of the water can easily be used to help pull a vacuum at the top and
>thus to increase the evaporation rate at the top of the stack.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

YES!!  If you designed a closed system, say with two pipes, one small
diameter like 1', and the other a large diameter like 3', and wrapped the
small diameter pipe with a heat reflective material like a space blanket,
you could put the small diameter pipe inside the larger pipe.  The small
diameter pipe would be hollow, and the space between the large and small
pipes would be filled with a porous hydrophilic material that had good heat
conduction qualities, and a good contact with the outer pipe.  You could
plant half the thing underground with the other half sticking up above the
ground and paint the upper portion of the outer pipe black.  There would be
a large temperature, pressure gradient between the two pipes, which would
create a flow that would resemble the magnetic field lines of a cylindrical
magnet.  When the vapor reached the top of the outer pipe, it would be
sucked into the inner pipe, and it would condense and rain back to the
bottom.  This could run forever this way with a gas tight system, pure water
could be used or a more sophisticated fluid.  The turbine of course would
need to be at the top, and could be of a type that used magnetic bearings,
so it would spin with no friction.

The whole unit could be manufacturered off site, and to install it, one
would just need a backhoe to dig a hole, and drop the unit into it.  To help
eliminate some possible installation problems, a small arrow could be
painted on the side with a sign saying "This End Up", in English of course,
so that even most citizens of the US could do the installation properly.
Also to lessen the cultural shock of the transition from fueled energy
sources to a non fueled source, a gas cap could be installed on the outer
pipe, and welded shut.  This, I think, would be of comfort to many.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 24 23:41:51 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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At 11:52 PM 8/24/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip enthusiastic response]

I wish I could share your enthsiasm for this idea Knuke.  I would think
there would be a minimally ou outcome, in either case.  Of course if any
kind of ou outcome were achievable it would be scientifically very
interesting, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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>At 11:52 PM 8/24/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>[snip enthusiastic response]
>
>I wish I could share your enthsiasm for this idea Knuke.  I would think
>there would be a minimally ou outcome, in either case.  Of course if any
>kind of ou outcome were achievable it would be scientifically very
>interesting, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

I know, I don't normally drink coffee, and have been drinking it the last
few days, so my responses have been more chemically charged than normal, but
I do think that the thing would produce usable amounts of electricity if
made properly.  The thing about the OU term is that it would not be
considered any more Over Unity than any other solar, geothermal, and
capillary action device (like there are a bunch of those, right?;).  It just
would be a clever arrangement or application of some already discovered
science.  Just good engineering, in other words, and the test of good
engineering is cost effectiveness.  I think in the long term it would be
cost effective in certain areas of the world as compared to the currently
used methods of generating electriciy, and it would be non polluting.

The simplicity of the design would necessitate a good matching of the
application that used the electricity to the power supply itself.  We tend
to look at nearly all generation schemes through the funnel vision of 120 or
240 AC, one supply does all kind of thinking, and that doesn't have to be a
limitation written in stone.  I threw the idea out, mainly as an exercise in
creative thinking, and was very pleased by the responses.  Thanks everyone
for the help!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 00:37:32 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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At 10:43 PM -0800 8/24/00, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Of course if any
>kind of ou outcome were achievable it would be scientifically very
>interesting, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

I think it would be huge if it ran in a calorimeter and didn't get 
any energy from any obvious source. Cohering the ZPE? If it worked, 
what else could it be?

Still sounds too much like a dunking bird though. <g> I wouldn't bet 
any money on it either.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 02:08:26 2000
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Tom writes:
>this discussion thread reminds me of what Richard Hoagland, 
>http://www.enterprisemission.com has been talking about on Coast to 
>Coast AM. The invisible government has been covering up artifacts on 
>the Moon and Mars too. But it isn't the money people, who want to 
>rewrite history, it's the Luciferians. What I can't figure out is 
>what they hope to accomplish by this.

I've been debating even getting into a discussion of this sort, but I'll
make this reply as short as I can, and we can either continue in private or
on VortexB if it gets ridiculous.  A lot of people want or seem to need to
write history, and some of them take the job with the expressed purpose of
recording the events of the day in an unbiased fashion, and condensing them
in such a fashion as to make the most important events the ones that get
recorded, and the rest of the stuff gets left out simply for the sake of
convenience.  This, in theory, is what makes a good historian.  In practice
however, this is an impossible thing to do for anyone, simply because
everyone has a personal bias, and a cultural framework within which they see
events, and a filtering process or value system that assigns relative
importance to events.  This is normal and can't be avoided as far as I have
been able to determine.  They also have to rely on interviews of witnesses,
and other sources of information, just because they can't be everywhere and
consciously experience everything at once, and so the whole idea of an
unbiased history is just an ideal that can never really be achieved.

Other people see the job of historian as a way of influencing peoples'
future behaviour by directing the reader to form conclusions and value
assessments based on a linear cause and effect logic.  This type of writer
is actually attempting to program the reader to make decisions in the future
by showing them a selected group of events and the resulting outcomes of the
behaviors of people in the past.  In this case, the actual events are really
just the props for an attempt to get people to behave in a certain way.
Certain events or facts that are really important are left out, while others
are minutely detailed for a specific purpose.  This more like social
engineering than historical reporting.  It is dishonest, and ultimately
damaging because it hides or distorts the truth.

When you refer to the Luciferians, I am assuming that you are talking about
Devil Worshippers, so correct me if I am wrong.  Again, I don't know exactly
what your religious beliefs are, but if I recall correctly, you have made
some comments that have indicated that you do have some, and that they were
fairly mainstream for this country.  I have beliefs of my own that could
best be described as Christian in nature or spirit, but I think my entire
cosmology is so radically different than most peoples' that my
interpretation of the Bible or any other religious text is more complicated.

>From my perspective, there life forces and death forces, good and evil, and
so forth, and that one should always strive to serve the good or the life
forces as best one can.  I think that the Luciferians serve the death forces
or evil, and that by distorting history they can promote a larger agenda of
death, misery and suffering.  As to the specifics of the Tesla elimination,
for example, suppose that Tesla did have a means of knocking down airplanes.
It would put the Airforce out of business.  Nazi Germany would not have had
the airpower to use against most of Europe.  The Japanese would have to had
attacked us by sea.  The US would not have been able to bomb countries into
submission, and on and on.  Much death and suffering would have been
impossible.  Much of the arms industry would have been rendered obsoleted,
ineffective, and unnecessary.

Mainly though I think, J.P. Morgan would not have had a means of gathering
wealth, and that was the ultimate motivation for his silencing of Tesla.
Excessive wealth allows one to control the destiny of people, and that is
what evil people want - to exercise life and death control over others.
Tesla wanted to give us free energy, and I think he could have delivered it.
I believe he wanted to make people happy, healthy and free from toil.
Morgan just said no.  Morgan convinced people that if they didn't go along
with him, there would be no dawn or tomorrow or future or life.  It was a
word/image trick that he used to play on peoples' fear.  In old English,
Morgan means morning or tomorrow.  In reality, Morgan was just another fat
bastard that took as much as he could.

As for the artifacts or evidence that the government is supposed to be
covering up, I haven't made up my mind on that one.  There is so much
disinformation surrounding that subject, and my own cosmology allows for the
possibility of so many things, that I can't say for sure what the true story
is on that.  I could speculate for volumes on this subject, but promised to
keep it short, so I will.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 02:15:15 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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Rick writes:
>I think it would be huge if it ran in a calorimeter and didn't get 
>any energy from any obvious source. Cohering the ZPE? If it worked, 
>what else could it be?
>
>Still sounds too much like a dunking bird though. <g> I wouldn't bet 
>any money on it either.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Obviously, Dave Dameron has gotten liquid to go up a tube and fall down
again in perpetual motion, that in itself was a nice piece of table top
engineering, and something that can be held up to the likes of Park, et.
alia to show that it can be done.  The "no perpetual motion machine" myth
has been broken if nothing else.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 04:27:19 2000
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Before you get too excited, Knuke, cut some strips about an inch
wide and a few inches long from a good quality paper towel, and
immerse the ends in a glass of water. Note the rapid wicking action.

Lay a pencil across the top of the water glass and droop that wick
over the pencil so that it is above the water level. Note that NO DROPS FORM.

Let another wick droop over the outside of the glass so that it forms a loop
below the water level and watch it, drip.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

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Now that's a smart move.  

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/24/australia.trees.enn/index.html

For "on-board" reforming for fuel cells: 

CH3OH + H2O  ---->  CO2 +  3 H2   (exothermic)
  32#          18#              44#        6#

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 05:50:55 2000
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Speaking of tree farming for biomass energy, those millions
of acres of charred trees in the west,represent millions of tons 
(and billion$ of $$)worth of fixed carbon there for the taking, if you could get the 
Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to let you harvest it.

Nature will provide, but not the guviment.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Forest Fire Biomass Treesource


> Speaking of tree farming for biomass energy, those millions
> of acres of charred trees in the west,represent millions of tons 
> (and billion$ of $$)worth of fixed carbon there for the taking, if you could get the 
> Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to let you harvest it.

BTW. The reason that they won't let you in to harvest the charred trees, is
because the dead Spotted Owls are an "Endangered Species".
> 
> Nature will provide, but not the guviment.  :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 

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George Holz wrote:

>> Anyway, last year I concluded from McKubre's data, plus the transmutation
>> data from Bockris, Mizuno and others means there is no longer any need for
>> the Mills hypothesis or any other non-nuclear theory.
>-
>So the current CF theory is perfect? We don't need any further explanation?
>I don't think that McKubre would agree.

Of course not. That's a silly distortion of what I said. My position is
that CF theory has barely begun, but several doors slammed shut once it was
established that nuclear ash is present. Furthermore, I believe in the
unity of nature. It seems impossible to me that a nuclear process occurs in
Pd, W and Au hydrides, but a completely different and unrelated hydrino
process occurs with Ni.


>Hydrinos can explain the nuclear processes detected in these experiments
>since highly shrunken hydrinos can behave like neutrons and pass through
>the coulonb barrier.

Yes, I acknowledged that. However, the hydrinos must be springing back to
ground state because they do not contribute any net energy to the process.
All of the energy is accounted for by the nuclear reactions.

There are several other, more conventional theories about neutral particles
causing the CF reaction, similar to muon catalyzed fusion.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Forest Fire Biomass Treesource
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>BTW. The reason that they won't let you in to harvest the charred trees, is
>because the dead Spotted Owls are an "Endangered Species".

Large, dead, standing trees (burned or not) are a rich habitat for birds
and many other species. In Atlanta, they actually brought in some dead
trees and placed them in a park recently. Too much deadwood is a fire
hazard, but the problem is mainly from underbrush and small trees. In the
natural course of events the smaller trees burn periodically leaving large
healthy trees above.

Burned trees are good fertilizer. It would be a mistake to remove all of
them from a section of woods. Removing some would be fine, but I doubt
there is much of a market for them. You could not just throw them on the
fire to generate electricity. Electric power plants have to be engineered
and tested with alternative fuels, such as peanut shells mixed with coal.
Biomass gasification plants are more flexible.

With proper planning, after a large hurricane in Florida or Georgia, you
could harvest the toppled trees, smashed apartment complexes and shredded
mobile homes, and fuel the electric utilities for weeks. In years when
there are no large storms you could randomly select 10,000 families, drive
them from their houses, and burn their houses and possessions for fuel. Why
not? We do it to the spotted owls and the people and animals in the rain
forests. It would make more economic sense than schemes like the Japanese
breeder reactor program, or oil shale.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 09:22:47 2000
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It's a pity that Tesla's invention of the polyphase induction motor, which
enabled the use of AC in industry, along with the high voltage distribution
grid, is not properly acknowledged in books or even the Smithsonian. He is
overshadowed by Edison, who laboratory did in fact produce more of the
electrical appliances than Tesla did. It's also a pity he doesn't get credit
for priority in radio, which he invented before Marconi.

It's also a pity that a Tesla legend has grown up about dreams of what might
have been, fueled by press reports and Tesla's showmanship which resulted in
a number of electrical magic shows, producing effects that are mundane from
a current perspective but were magical at their time. Tesla's power
distribution schemes would have generated so much static that it would have
blocked the coming AM radio transmissions and quite possible hazardous
biologically hazardous radiation nearby. The fact the JP Morgan didn't like
it because he couldn't meter it and charge for it was only one factor. It
was also a very uneconomical use of energy -- much more efficient to run
wires to a lamp or to use a local, rechargeable battery.

Tesla was an extraordinary person by any measure. But he was not a god.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 09:36:43 2000
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:31:16 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: LaViolette CF controversy in Washington Post
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Here are some quotes from:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8364-2000Aug23.html

This is an embarrassing development in cold fusion, which is already
mortifying in so many ways. Paul A. LaViolette was deposed from the Patent
Office because he believes in cold fusion, and he is trying to get his job
back based on the Civil Service regulations protecting freedom of religion.
Apparently there are no regulations protecting the freedom to believe
unpopular scientific ideas, or what you might call academic freedom within
the Federal bureaucracy.  LaViolette tells me that he and his lawyer
considered fighting for a new ruling protecting academic freedom, but it
would probably take a long time and a lot of money. Given the organized
opposition to CF it would probably take an appeal to the Supreme Court,
which they could not afford.

I find it is embarrassing and uncomfortable to read this Washington Post
article, but I have to say I agree with LaViolette's logic. Protection of
free speech and beliefs should cover religion and scientific beliefs with
impartiality and no distinction made. One man's religion is another man's
science.

- Jed


EEOC Backs 'Cold Fusion' Devotee


Belief in radically unconventional scientific notions, such as "cold
fusion" or cryptic messages from extraterrestrials, may merit the same
workplace protections as freedom of religion, according to a ruling by  the
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in a job-discrimination case. The
July 7 EEOC decision came in response to a complaint by maverick
Alexandria astronomer and erstwhile patent examiner Paul A. LaViolette,
who was fired in April 1999 by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
LaViolette, 52, claimed the action was taken because he believes in the
validity of a highly controversial energy-generation idea called "cold
fusion," along with other unorthodox matters, and protested the decision
to the PTO.

His Web site, www.etheric.com, details his "proof" of the existence of
alien radio communication, his theory that the zodiac is a "time capsule
message" warning of emanations from the galactic center and his views on
the Sphinx, the Tarot and Atlantis, along with his considerable
accomplishments in mainstream science.

The PTO's parent agency, the Commerce Department, evaluated LaViolette's
complaint, and on Sept. 13, 1999, dismissed his case. The agency  concluded
that even if he had suffered reprisal for his cold-fusion  beliefs, those
beliefs did not fall within the protective purview of  Title VII of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964. That statute prohibits  workplace discrimination
on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or  national origin.

LaViolette then appealed the ruling to the EEOC, arguing that
"discrimination against a person on account of his beliefs is the essence
of discrimination on the basis of religion."

"I don't want to explain everything" while the complaint is still under
consideration, LaViolette said in an interview. "But there is a  connection
between my scientific beliefs and my very deep religious  feelings."

. . .


[Robert] Park, author of a new book, "Voodoo Science: The Road from
Foolishness to  Fraud," is a severe critic of many "new energy" notions,
and has  publicized the Valone-LaViolette story extensively. LaViolette
feels such  actions have prejudiced the PTO.

"I'm trying to bring to light this issue through my case. People should
not be thrown out just because they have ideas that are not agreed to by
Robert Park or the American Physical Society," LaViolette said. "The  ideas
that are going to change the world are those that we maybe don't  have
answers for right now."

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 25, 2000
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:38:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 25 Aug 00   Washington, DC

1. VITAMIN O: THE RESURRECTION.  In November 1998, USA Today ran
an ad promoting the health benefits of "Vitamin O."  After WN
exposed it as salt water (WN 27 Nov 98), the Federal Trade
Commission charged Rose Creek Health Products Inc - the makers of
"Vitamin O" - with fraud.  Last May, the FTC announced that
Donald Smyth, Rose Creek president, would pay $375,000 in redress
and was prohibited from claiming that Vitamin O has any health
benefits (WN 5 May 00).  You'd think that would be the end of
Smyth.  Instead, he moved just a few doors down the street,
renamed the company R-Garden Internationale and brazenly
continues to sell "Vitamin O."  Now he markets it with a packet
of testimonials that praise its miraculous healing power.  At the
bottom of every page, in a font as scant as his scruples, he
states that he "makes no medical claims as to the benefits of any
products."  While fraudulent companies now may hesitate to run
full page ads in major papers, they'll bank on the FTC's not
having enough resources to police every "mom and pop" scam.

2. REFORM PARTY ANTICS: WHO GETS TO WASTE THE $12.6 MILLION?  The
Reform Party held its convention and, in a slight departure from
political tradition, boldly chose two Presidential nominees. 
Physicist John Hagelin (WN 24 Nov 99) now accuses talk-show-host
Patrick Buchanan of polluting the party.  How could he tell?  The
battle is over who gets the $12.6 million federal contribution to
their losing effort.  The Federal Election Commission will rule
on the matter in just ten days.  But Darryl Wold, the FEC
Chairman, declared that the election laws "don't provide any
guidance" and it's possible that the two nominees will have to
split the money.  Call it retail politics: a two-for-one special.

3. FALL FASHION TIP: YOU JUST HAVE TO WEAR MAGNETS, DAAAHLING. 
The word this season... accesorize!  There are just sooooo many
delicious items: the Eclipse magnetic pendant, the Solar magna-
ball bracelet, the Lyon Magnetic Ear Stud.  Don't forget to
sashay down to Florsheim for a pair of Magna-Force shoes (WN 11
AUG 00).  And ladies - there's Lum magnetic lipstick for the
perfect effulgence!  Men: just a touch of Essential 7 magnetic
fragrance - remember, less is more!  Now, just one more item to
complete the outfit: Gary Null's unisex magnetic underwear.  It
"penetrates the prostate, colon, ovaries, uterus and reproductive
organs." (Probably not all on the same person.)  Advertisers for
magnetic products say they're effective because the pineal gland
is a "magnetic engine."  Fine, so put the shorts where they can
do the most good - on your head.  That way the rest of us will
know who you are.  Just another WN style tip.  Ta Ta!

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily share by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 10:11:17 2000
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Subject: Re: Tesla's Elimination
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Tesla's power
>distribution schemes would have generated so much static that it would have
>blocked the coming AM radio transmissions and quite possible hazardous
>biologically hazardous radiation nearby. The fact the JP Morgan didn't like
>it because he couldn't meter it and charge for it was only one factor. It
>was also a very uneconomical use of energy . . .

Perhaps the metering could have been fixed, but the other problems made it
impractical and probably dangerous. The point I made the other day was that
these problems would have been apparent with a small, prototype or pilot
plant installation. They should not have built such an expensive tower.
Edison made the same mistake with his magnetic ore separation. He went from
the concept to a full-scale installation. A pilot plant would have helped
them avoid many technical problems. It might have convinced him the plan
was not economically competitive, and unwise.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 10:23:10 2000
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
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Subject: Search For Dave Demeron
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	Dave,

	Can we please know about this note, below?  Please


On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Rick writes:
> 
> Obviously, Dave Dameron has gotten liquid to go up a tube and fall down
> again in perpetual motion, that in itself was a nice piece of table top
> engineering, and something that can be held up to the likes of Park, et.
> alia to show that it can be done.  The "no perpetual motion machine" myth
> has been broken if nothing else.
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Frederick
	The process is OSMOSIS. The water outside the maple tree due to
the melting snow passes through the membranes of the roots in an attempt
to dilute the sugar solution which is the sap. the tree keeps making more
sugar, and the water keeps increasing the pressure. It is not a free
energy situation,

Hank

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: George Holz <george varisys.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
> 
> George Holz wrote:
> 
> 
> > Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > > Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
> > > 
> > Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
> > energy it takes to break the surface tension
> > bonds at the top of the column. That energy
> > should equal the energy of formation that
> > allowed the water to be lifted initially.
> 
> A lot of study into this came about for Heat Pipe Wicks in the late 1960s.
> 
> You can sandwich ink blotters between plates and wick up to several feet
> but you won't pump beyond the suface energy barrier that George is talking
> about.
> 
> The "Root Pressure " that trees use to lift sap (more than 300 feet for giant redwoods)
> is not capillary action alone, but an electro-chemical  (Electro-0smosis)"pump" powered
> by Solar Energy.. 
> 
> I don't see water gushing out of tree stumps after they have dried out. :-)
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> > -
> > George Holz                george varisys.com
> > Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> > Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 12:33:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:34:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Gene Mallove  E mail address bounces
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	To All:  Do any have valid E mail for Gene?

	Dear Gene,

	The E mail I have for you bounces... what is a good one?

	Please

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?

That makes sense, Hank. 

I spent a lot of my early years filling Karo Syrup cans off the sugar
maples back in northwestern Pennsylvania. Even at 3% that sap
was a delight to drink.

Firing the evaporators in the old Sugar Houses to get a gallon of syrup
out of  ~33 gallons of sap was a pleasant chore too. :-)

Viva Sol!  

Frederick


> Frederick
> The process is OSMOSIS. The water outside the maple tree due to
> the melting snow passes through the membranes of the roots in an attempt
> to dilute the sugar solution which is the sap. the tree keeps making more
> sugar, and the water keeps increasing the pressure. It is not a free
> energy situation,
> 
> Hank
> 
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: George Holz <george varisys.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
> > 
> > George Holz wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > > > Hey, I'm tempted to do it myself! :-)
> > > > 
> > > Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
> > > energy it takes to break the surface tension
> > > bonds at the top of the column. That energy
> > > should equal the energy of formation that
> > > allowed the water to be lifted initially.
> > 
> > A lot of study into this came about for Heat Pipe Wicks in the late 1960s.
> > 
> > You can sandwich ink blotters between plates and wick up to several feet
> > but you won't pump beyond the suface energy barrier that George is talking
> > about.
> > 
> > The "Root Pressure " that trees use to lift sap (more than 300 feet for giant redwoods)
> > is not capillary action alone, but an electro-chemical  (Electro-0smosis)"pump" powered
> > by Solar Energy.. 
> > 
> > I don't see water gushing out of tree stumps after they have dried out. :-)
> > 
> > Regards,     Frederick
> > > -
> > > George Holz                george varisys.com
> > > Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> > > Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 12:53:24 2000
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MJ, when water goes down by gravity that energy has never been shown to be 
enought to raise the same amount of water.  I think it is true.  But I also 
think anything never tested should be tried, that is what "real" science is, 
test and experiment.  Not trying to to prove or disprove anything.  That's 
the job of a "real" scientist.

Theorists however are supposed to speculate and propose the tests.  That's 
the Scientific Method.

These days are all backwards, scientists are pretending to be theorists, and 
theorists are testing their own proposals pretending to be scientists.

Even so I encourage any amateur scientist to test since the "real" 
scientists rarely listen to the theorists.  They are "want to be" theorists. 
  But really there is not way a "real" scientist can be a theorist.  Theory 
need the artistic side of the brain.  It is art.  Science needs the 
analytical side of the brain.  Together two heads are better than one.

David


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)
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Frederick
I met the guy who invented the drinking bird. He worked at the Naval
Research Labs in Washington just after WW2, developed the device, showed
it to his superiors, etc. He is now retired, lives in Burnt Hills-Ballston
Lake NY. I met him at a church fair (Methodist) in Burnt Hills. He must be
in his ninetys now. I met him in 1999.

Hank

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Are you in the process of reinventing this, Horace?   :-)
> 
>  http://truth.wofford.edu/~whisnantdm/BirdWWW/DB_Prob.htm
> 

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Akira Kawasaki wrote:
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: What's New for Aug 25, 2000
> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:38:46 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
> To: aki ix.netcom.com
> 
> WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 25 Aug 00   Washington, DC

<snip>

> It
> "penetrates the prostate, colon, ovaries, uterus and reproductive
> organs." (Probably not all on the same person.)  Advertisers for
> magnetic products say they're effective because the pineal gland
> is a "magnetic engine."  Fine, so put the shorts where they can
> do the most good - on your head.  

. . .

As much as I dislike the man, he is funny  . . .

Maybe he is always joking.

Terry

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Capillary Action OU :-)

Was he a teetotaler, or a lush, Hank?  :-)

> Frederick
> I met the guy who invented the drinking bird. He worked at the Naval
> Research Labs in Washington just after WW2, developed the device, showed
> it to his superiors, etc. He is now retired, lives in Burnt Hills-Ballston
> Lake NY. I met him at a church fair (Methodist) in Burnt Hills. He must be
> in his ninetys now. I met him in 1999.
> 
> Hank
> 
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > Are you in the process of reinventing this, Horace?   :-)
> > 
> >  http://truth.wofford.edu/~whisnantdm/BirdWWW/DB_Prob.htm
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 13:35:50 2000
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If one rotates the armature of a motor or generator without the
magnetic field, will there be a voltage/current developed due to
the magnetogravity field. Not to be confused with the Earth's B field.

Stuff from an old alternator rotor or a drill motor, perhaps?

Regards,  Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 14:00:18 2000
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Frederick
	Conventional EM theory says no!
del X E = -dB/dt

Hank

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> If one rotates the armature of a motor or generator without the
> magnetic field, will there be a voltage/current developed due to
> the magnetogravity field. Not to be confused with the Earth's B field.
> 
> Stuff from an old alternator rotor or a drill motor, perhaps?
> 
> Regards,  Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 14:17:02 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Please describe recent BLP energy devices
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Jed wrote:
> Of course not. That's a silly distortion of what I said. My position is
> that CF theory has barely begun, but several doors slammed shut once it was
> established that nuclear ash is present. Furthermore, I believe in the
> unity of nature. It seems impossible to me that a nuclear process occurs in
> Pd, W and Au hydrides, but a completely different and unrelated hydrino
> process occurs with Ni.
-
The processes would not be unrelated! Hydrinos can result in nuclear processes.
The hydrinos cannot easily cause a nuclear process in the H but they are
capable of causing such reactions in the various cathodes you mention.
This is a door which should not yet be closed.
-
> >Hydrinos can explain the nuclear processes detected in these experiments
> >since highly shrunken hydrinos can behave like neutrons and pass through
> >the coulonb barrier.
>
> Yes, I acknowledged that. However, the hydrinos must be springing back to
> ground state because they do not contribute any net energy to the process.
> All of the energy is accounted for by the nuclear reactions.
-
The hydrino heat generation is so much smaller than the nuclear heat caused
by the formation of He that it would have been undetectable in McKubre's
experiments. A few hundred extra eV per reaction will be very hard to
detect.
-
> There are several other, more conventional theories about neutral particles
> causing the CF reaction, similar to muon catalyzed fusion.
-
Hydrinos could cause reactions very similar to those caused by
muon catalyzed fusion. I judge theories by how well they explain
the experimental results, not by how many people find them acceptable.
I actually think that Mills' theory has serious problems, but his
experimental results seem to point toward the existence of below
ground state hydrogen at the energy levels he predicts. His energy
level predictions for conventional atoms are also very good, and are much
simpler to apply to higher atomic number atoms where QM becomes
computation limited. How does a flawed theory
give such good agreement with experiment? This is a very good question.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 14:17:05 2000
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:14:28 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: DOE Laser Facility Facing Problems 
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The anti-CF skeptics should turn their wrath on the inertial confinement
fusion. It has technical problems, and it cannot be reproduced, because
there is only one experiment. By their warped standards, it does not exist.

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6619-2000Aug22.html

DOE Laser Facility Facing Problems 

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 23, 2000 ; A23 

QUOTES:

A 10-year-old project designed to help maintain the U.S. nuclear arsenal
indefinitely by building a laser so powerful it could simulate the
conditions of a thermonuclear explosion in a laboratory has ballooned in
cost to nearly $4 billion and still has serious "unresolved technical
problems," according to the General Accounting Office.

The congressionally mandated GAO investigation concluded that not only will
the National Ignition Facility (NIF) at the Lawrence Livermore National
Laboratory in California cost at least $1 billion more than planned and
take six years longer than expected to begin full operations, but the glass
lenses needed to focus the laser beams "pose a major technical challenge
and . . . there is currently no solution to this problem."

In addition, "technical and cost uncertainties also persist in the research
and development needed to design and build a target for NIF's laser beams,"
the GAO said. . . .

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: R. Park magnet therapy error
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On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> Fine, so put the shorts where they can
> do the most good - on your head.  That way the rest of us will
> know who you are.  Just another WN style tip.  Ta Ta!

I was just reading an earlier Park essay on magnet therapy, and was
stunned to discover that the guy apparently doesn't understand a simple
physics concept:

     The attractive strength of a magnetic field is proportional to the
     gradient of the field.  

A zero-gradient (parallel) magnetic field, even an immensely strong one,
does not attract ferrous objects.  For example, Earth's field applies a
significant torque to a compass needle, but it doesn't pull the needle in
any particular direction.

In an earlier essay Park "proves" that the field of the therapy magnets
barely penetrates the skin.  His demonstration is flawed.  To measure the
field at a distance, you must actually measure it.  Stacking paper under a
magnet tells you something about the nonlinear shape of the field at the
magnet's surface, but it doesn't tell you how the field strength varies
with distance.  His point MIGHT be correct.  The field MIGHT be weak at
distances greater than one millimeter, and magnetic therapy MIGHT be
bogus.  However, he uses bad science to illustrate this, and he reveals
his own misunderstanding of a subject he should understand.  And perhaps
he is wrong, and the field surrounding those particular magnets extends to
a far greater distance than he imagines.



> From http://www.physlink.com/essay_park.cfm
> 
> To get an idea of how quickly the field falls off, I stuck one of the
> magnets on a file cabinet. I then held sheets of paper between the
> magnet and the cabinet until the magnet could no longer support itself.
> Ten sheets! That's just one millimeter. The field of these magnets would
> hardly reach through the skin, much less into muscles and joints.
> Indeed, there was essentially no field extending through the velvet
> bands. Not only do these magnets have no power to heal, their fields
> don't even reach the injury. So much for the Baylor study which used
> commercial alternating-pole magnets. You might characterize them as
> "homeopathic"  magnets.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

We're not conventional, Hank. :-)

Hook a 10 megohm resistor  between the test leads of a millivoltmeter
and move it back and forth as rapidly as possible outdoors away
from power lines.

Volts  =  B*L*v   

For the Earth's B field,  B ~ = 5.0E-5 Tesla

But what is the Relativistic B of the Magnetogravity Field?

Regards,     Frederick


> Frederick
> Conventional EM theory says no!
> del X E = -dB/dt
> 
> Hank
> 
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > If one rotates the armature of a motor or generator without the
> > magnetic field, will there be a voltage/current developed due to
> > the magnetogravity field? Not to be confused with the Earth's B field.
> > 
> > Stuff from an old alternator rotor or a drill motor, perhaps?
> > 
> > Regards,  Frederick
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 14:38:23 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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>Frederick
>	The process is OSMOSIS. The water outside the maple tree due to
>the melting snow passes through the membranes of the roots in an attempt
>to dilute the sugar solution which is the sap. the tree keeps making more
>sugar, and the water keeps increasing the pressure. It is not a free
>energy situation,
>
>Hank

My Dad explained the osmosis phenomenon to me years ago, and in our family's
usual humorous style, he told me that he always slept with books under his
pillow to soak up the knowledge.  I thought this was a pretty good idea of
course, and started sleeping with a 4 lb. engineer's hammer under my pillow
to soak up the hardness.  It works!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Dameron - Capillary Action 
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Oh No, I am sorry about that, and will get that corrected immediately.
There is a Dave Dameron that I correspond with on a frequent basis, and I
must have just read the name wrong.  Colquhoun - Dameron, they're
practically identical!  Not.

Really embarrassed,

Knuke

>You Wrote
>http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m13743.html
>
>Thank you for posting my site.
>
>Im not Dave Dameron!
>
>Im Dave Colquhoun  (sounds like Calhoon)
>drspark86 hotmail.com
>
>Regards  Dave Calhoon.
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 14:51:51 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Calhoon - Capillary Action 
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Here is another post from Dave Calhoon.

******************

SNIP
post  me if you want.Michael  edit if you wish your much better writer than
me.
SNIP

How it works no magic no zpe just surface tension and gravity.

Its very simple  cap-action creats a new elevated surface.

If water evaporates or is absorbed from the new surface the cap-action will
maintain the new surface level.

What happens to the liquid removed really doesent have any effect on the new
surface level caused buy the cap-action.

I suppose that the wicking away of the water is another cap-action like
effect, the string looks as if it has a surface around it when this is
working/flowing.  (sort of full/very wet look)

The water on/in the wic is under influence of gravity and will fall if
allowed to.
The wic hangs down and the water falls.
Back at the top the wick is still absorbing liquid from the upper surface.

The string hangs down into the main surface, making surface tension contact.
There is no surface tension to break as there would be if it were having to
drip...

Iv built 5 or more they did not all work at fist but all worked eventuly,
and the one on the shelf is still working, but i think the level is getting
lower because evaperation thru the babyfood jar top. (bad seal)

The .gif video on my web site ran for about 5 days befor alge clogged the
connection at the top of the cap tube.
It was made in a baby food jar and assembled under water in a large bowl of
water.

When I added the food coloring the food coloring displaced the water in/on
the string and it flowed back for a few minuits befor normal flow resumed.

When I watch the full framed vdo .avi I can see the flow slow after a day or
so and it stopped somtime after the 5th day. Since then I have built others
using alcohol and ink, ink is more like a paste it sits on top and melts
into the flow below it. Someday I may rerecord one, washing all of the ink
away into the liquid and then staining everything, lighty.
But im lucky to make it a few days befor this computer will crash for one
reason or another, killing the photo sesion.
starting over is easyer said than done.  ill get it someday...

The photo setup  was in a square cardboard box laying on its side with a
long rectangle cut in the top where a 1" diameter floresent liight was
shining in, on the open side the camcorder was pointed in, and covered up
with black trash bag matereial. I did peak in from time to time buy moving
the trash bag aside a bit and returning it when done.

The video capture software was setup to grab a frame every hour and assemble
em into a .avi its 8mb. The light was on all the time.


Regards Dave

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 15:02:40 2000
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?


Knuke wrote:
> 
> My Dad explained the osmosis phenomenon to me years ago, and in our family's
> usual humorous style, he told me that he always slept with books under his
> pillow to soak up the knowledge.  I thought this was a pretty good idea of
> course, and started sleeping with a 4 lb. engineer's hammer under my pillow
> to soak up the hardness.  It works!

LOL!  However, the ELF Antenna it makes, can adversely affect your Pineal Gland
           and convert you into believing everything that Robert Park says. If you
          don't believe me, ask Bill Beaty.  :-)
          Or, you can tape a compass to your forehead and see if it points toward the hammer.

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 15:06:11 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Vortex-L@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: R. Park magnet therapy error
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1000825140030.29582F-100000 eskimo.com>
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William Beaty wrote:

>In an earlier essay Park "proves" that the field of the therapy magnets
>barely penetrates the skin.  His demonstration is flawed.  To measure the
>field at a distance, you must actually measure it.  Stacking paper under a
>magnet . . .

Mallove pointed this out in his review of the Park book. See:

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/FEATURE/cover/30/fset.html

I would add that if magnets do have a biological effect, it would difficult
to predict what minimum field strength would be required. Even if Park's
method worked, it might only demonstrate that low strength magnetic fields
have a significant effect on cells. That would not be a big surprise. A
tiny flow of electricity has been found to have positive theraputic effects
in healing some types of wounds and fractures. I think I recall that was
discovered during WWI. If you tried to measure that flow of electricity
with a crude, ad-hoc meter similar to Parks "paper gaussmeter," you would
see nothing, but the electricity is definitely flowing, and the cells have
no trouble detecting and reacting to it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 16:13:46 2000
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Subject: Re: R. Park magnet therapy error
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Jed wrote:

> A tiny flow of electricity has been found to have positive theraputic
effects
> in healing some types of wounds and fractures. I think I recall that was
> discovered during WWI.

Sounds a little early for Becker.  Who reported that work, Jed?

Ed Wall


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 18:30:05 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Fred writes:
>LOL!  However, the ELF Antenna it makes, can adversely affect your Pineal Gland
>           and convert you into believing everything that Robert Park says.
If you
>          don't believe me, ask Bill Beaty.  :-)
>          Or, you can tape a compass to your forehead and see if it points
toward the hammer.
>
>Regards,  Frederick

Well, this may explain quite a few things.  I did so much welding on the
Polar Bear that every year we had to "swing the compass" before we went
North.  I never thought about getting my personal compass swung, and all my
engineer's hammers are now sitting at the bottom of various harbors, rivers
and the ocean.  After numerous experiments, I observed that engineer's
hammers only float for a very, very short time before rocketing their way to
the bottom followed by an upwelling sense of remorse and loss, and the sound
of yours truly waking up every diety that ever existed in protest of the
unfairness of this situation.  I love engineer's hammers, and have been very
attached to each one that I've had, you know.

Today, I do have a claw hammer which I keep in my toolbox, but I would never
sleep with such a tool, as I regard it to be more of a farm implement.
After sleeping with such an elegant and precision made tool as an engineer's
hammer, there is no way that I could ever bring myself to put a claw hammer
directly beneath my second favorite organ, namely my very boney brain.  I
have found that if one does not maintain a high degree of standards in such
matters, one will almost surely perish.

Boy, I am really going to have to quit drinking this coffee.  I have always
had just way too much fun with any alkaloids running through me. ;)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 19:36:32 2000
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I did a simple experiment using a digital ohmmeter on the lowest
resistance range. With the leads separated and shorted together
the meter read 0.6 ohms, but when the leads were rapidly moved
back and forth or in a circle the resistance changed sporadically
usually it increased.

With a 15.2 ohm resistor it increased as much as by a factor of ten.

There was no measurable voltage generated on the A.C. or D.C.
millivolt settings, indicating that there has to be a current flowing in
the rapidly moving/accelerating loop.

This goes back to my argument that Electric Motors/Generators
are intrinsically OU in a Magnetogravity Field, depending on
the orientation of the windings, etc.

IOW, there should be a Magnetogravity B Field at the Earth's surface
that generates an EMF = v*B*L where v is the velocity (or an acceleration)
of the loop, L is the loop length and B is the Magnetogravity Field (accelerated
reference frame) which should dwarf the 0.5 gauss (5.0E-5 tesla) Geomagnetic B field.

I gave Vince a call to see if he could replicate this, and he got similar results with
the ohmmeter leads shorted together and rapid movement of the test leads.

Regards,     Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 25 19:59:24 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
Message-ID: <c6.9ea203c.26d88c07 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:57:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Please describe recent BLP energy devices
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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What BLP is doing isn't cold fusion, because they use ordinary light hydrogen 
as the fuel, and there aren't any nuclear products with ordinary H.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 03:30:42 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Forest Fire Biomass Treesource
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Jed writes:
>With proper planning, after a large hurricane in Florida or Georgia, you
>could harvest the toppled trees, smashed apartment complexes and shredded
>mobile homes, and fuel the electric utilities for weeks. In years when
>there are no large storms you could randomly select 10,000 families, drive
>them from their houses, and burn their houses and possessions for fuel. Why
>not? We do it to the spotted owls and the people and animals in the rain
>forests. It would make more economic sense than schemes like the Japanese
>breeder reactor program, or oil shale.
>
>- Jed

In the world of yesteryear the idea of burning old wood that had been used
for housing or other manufactured items might have been feasible, but the
Floridians are finding that now that just isn't the case.  Pesticides,
especially termite treatments, and various other chemical wood treatments
present more problems than originally thought when burned.  Safe disposal of
nearly all wood products is more complicated by the treatments that modern
day manufacturers use regularly to lengthen the lifetime of the product or
for other reasons.  Harvesting of toppled trees and recycling of aluminum
houses wouldn't be affected so much by this, although the removal of the
styrofoam insulation of the aluminum houses would be problematic.

One thing that would alleviate this would be to build sensible housing in
the first place, taking into consideration of the locality and the need for
chemical treatments in areas such as Florida.  Brick, stone, and cement
block don't need chemical treatment, they last much longer than wood, and
the houses built using these items don't fall down at the first blow of a
storm.  If you build a house to last a thousand years, it has real value.

The other thing that would alleviate these kinds of problems would be the
use of "electrical pesticides" or treatments for areas that have problems
with certain kinds of pests.  This form of treatment is not new, but is
actively discouraged by the chemical poison industry, because it doesn't
make them any money.  The arms industry owns most of the chemical poison
industry, as well as much of the food industry, so there is very little that
a person can do about that except make demands to the government for change.

As for driving 10,000 families from their homes and burning their
possessions, you must be joking.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 03:44:17 2000
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John

editor infinite-energy.com should get him.

- Soo

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Response below;
 
> Jed writes:
> >With proper planning, after a large hurricane in Florida or Georgia, you
> >could harvest the toppled trees, smashed apartment complexes and shredded
> >mobile homes, and fuel the electric utilities for weeks.

Really? Which power plants in existence now are set up to run off these
types of fuel? Are you ready to pay the millions of dollars per plant to
convert them to running off trash? How could you get a uniform burn from
such diverse fuels? Who would you get to pull out all the nails, etc..
from the boards? Are you planning to burn the plywood (and the glue it
is held together with) or just the 2x4's etc.? What about the shingles
(asphalt) and other roofing (rubber) and the various types of
insulation?

 In years when
> >there are no large storms you could randomly select 10,000 families, drive
> >them from their houses, and burn their houses and possessions for fuel.

Good idea! YOU are first on the list.

 Why
> >not? We do it to the spotted owls and the people and animals in the rain
> >forests. It would make more economic sense than schemes like the Japanese
> >breeder reactor program, or oil shale.
> >
> >- Jed = Tree Hugger

MJ

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Hi Knuke,
   Yes you did post that idea. I thought it was workable but since it
wasn't mine I left it alone.
MJ

Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Hi Mitch,
> 
> I'm not sure whether I posted this idea to the FreeNRG Group or here, but
> when this idea first came up, I basically gave him the same limitations, and
> made a suggestion for a pipe with a wicking material inside it.  The basic
> idea was that I thought that it might be possible to build a pipe as high as
> you wanted and with the proper material inside, water would be wicked to the
> top using the capillary principle.  If the top few feet of of the pipe were
> made of a flexible material such as rubber, then it would be possible in my
> mind to squeeze the water upward and outward from the top of the pipe with a
> roller type pump, and water would wick back from below to replace it.
> Depending on the height (the higher the better), I think that this would
> prove to be OU if the water removed from the top used gravity to do work on
> a trip back down to the ground.  Do you see any limitations in this type of
> design?
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 08:04:06 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 8:28 PM 8/25/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>I did a simple experiment using a digital ohmmeter on the lowest
>resistance range. With the leads separated and shorted together
>the meter read 0.6 ohms, but when the leads were rapidly moved
>back and forth or in a circle the resistance changed sporadically
>usually it increased.
>
>With a 15.2 ohm resistor it increased as much as by a factor of ten.
>
>There was no measurable voltage generated on the A.C. or D.C.
>millivolt settings, indicating that there has to be a current flowing in
>the rapidly moving/accelerating loop.


I did a similar experiment using 40 turns of wire in a 4.4 ohm trianguar
shaped coil about 1 foot per side.  I also got some wild swings of
resistance by moving the coil either laterally or by rotating it.  To be
sure the effect was not due to rattling the connection to the test leads, I
clamped the lead wires from the coil to a table.  To get a better picture
of what was going on I put some oscilloscope lead on the coil too, in
parallel to the ohmmeter.  There was substantial RF noise in the coil, AM
radio I assume, though I was surprised to see some 100 kHz feedback noise
came from my oscilloscope when the coil was moved directly around it.

When the sweep rate was set way down, the most visible results of motion
was the variation of the AC amplitude of the RF signal.  The DC bias from
the ohmmeter was barely visible, if at all.  I am thinking possibly there
is some rectification and/or a short time constant averaging involved in
the ohmmeter. The thing being modulated by waving the coil around appeared
to be the AC signal.   I don't see how rotation on the coil major axis also
produced the resistance fluctuations, unless it was due to accidental
lateral translation.  I should also mention that I have a strong ambient
magnetic field in my lab area due to having a number of powerful magnets
around, which may account for (an unseen) low frequency component to the
potential generated by lateral translation.  Turning off a flourescent
light nearby reduced the RF noise and the observed effect noticeably.

I think the experiemtn should be done in a very shielded environment.

I will say the effect is surprisingly large.  I had to waive the coil very
close to a powerful magnet to obtain a similar resistance value fluctuation
directly from the effect of the magnet's field on the coil.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 08:05:23 2000
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
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Nicely done mitchell.
MJ
Limit is TECHNOLOGY not POSSIBILITY.

Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Mitch writes:
> >>
> >>***{There is nothing humiliating about being wrong, and proving oneself
> >>right is not a triumph. The main purpose of a group such as this is to
> >>provide a forum where we can test our ideas. The primary benefit of putting
> >>forth our opinions is to see if others can shoot them down. Every time that
> >>happens, we are enabled to learn and grow, if we have the strength to
> >>change our beliefs. That's when the *real* triumph occurs. --MJ}***
> >
> >Hi Mitch,
> >
> >I'm not sure whether I posted this idea to the FreeNRG Group or here, but
> >when this idea first came up, I basically gave him the same limitations, and
> >made a suggestion for a pipe with a wicking material inside it.  The basic
> >idea was that I thought that it might be possible to build a pipe as high as
> >you wanted and with the proper material inside, water would be wicked to the
> >top using the capillary principle.  If the top few feet of of the pipe were
> >made of a flexible material such as rubber, then it would be possible in my
> >mind to squeeze the water upward and outward from the top of the pipe with a
> >roller type pump, and water would wick back from below to replace it.
> >Depending on the height (the higher the better), I think that this would
> >prove to be OU if the water removed from the top used gravity to do work on
> >a trip back down to the ground.  Do you see any limitations in this type of
> >design?
> 
> ***{Let's run the numbers.
> 
> According to my 40th edition *Handbook of Chemistry and Physics*, pg. 2142,
> the surface tension of water against air at 20 deg. C is 72.75 dynes/cm.
> Surface tension is determined by, for example, attaching a thread to the
> center of a very thin, straight wire, laying the wire flat on the surface
> of the water, and measuring the force which is required to lift it free
> from that surface. Since the water pulls at the wire from each side as we
> try to lift it up, T = F/2l, where T is the surface tension, F is the
> required lifting force in excess of the weight of the wire, and l is the
> length of the wire.
> 
> Since surface tension is the force lifting water inside a capillary tube,
> the lifting force is 2¼rT dynes, where r is the radius of the capillary
> tube.
> 
> The mass of the water being lifted, on the other hand, is ¼(r^2)hd, where h
> is the height of the tube in cm, and d is the density of water in gms/cm.
> Since the density of water is about 1 gm/cm, and each gram of water weighs
> 980 dynes, the downward force in dynes that the surface tension has to lift
> is 980¼(r^2)h.
> 
> When the downward weight of the column of water equals the lifting force
> supplied by surface tension, it can be lifted no higher. To calculate how
> high a column of water we can raise by capillary action, therefore, we
> simply set the above two expressions equal and solve for h--viz:
> 
> 2¼rT = 980¼(r^2)h
> 
> Solving, we find that h = T/490r
> 
> Examining the above expression, we see that the height to which water can
> be raised in a capillary tube is inversely proportional to the radius of
> the tube. Thus the smallest possible value for r would have to be the
> radius of a water molecule. Looking in my 63rd edition *Handbook of
> Chemistry and Physics*, I see (pg. F-182) that the O-H bond length of water
> is .958 angstroms, or 9.58x10^-9 cm. Plugging in the appropriate values, we
> find that h = T/490r = (72.75)/490(9.58x10^-9) = 15,497,849 cm, or about
> 155 km or 96 miles.
> 
> Conclusion: raising water to a significant height by capillary action
> appears possible. What you would need would be a mass of capillary tubes
> that are very small, and very tough (so that they could withstand the
> repeated squeezing inflicted by the rollers of a peristaltic pump). Since
> the energy that lifted the water to height would be "free," any energy
> extracted from the water on its way back down would also be "free."
> 
> What isn't free, of course, is the capillary material, which will have to
> be manufactured by a process that will have costs, and which will have to
> be replaced when worn out by the pump rollers or clogged up by chemical or
> bacterial action. Thus the key question is this: does a capillary material
> exist which will be sufficiently durable and sufficiently resistant to
> chemical or bacterial action, so that the total value of the energy
> extracted from the water on the way back down will exceed the replacement
> cost of the material plus the cost of running the peristaltic pump?
> 
> Frankly, I don't know.
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> >
> >Knuke
> >Michael T. Huffman
> >Huffman Technology Company
> >1121 Dustin Drive
> >The Villages, Florida 32159
> >(352)259-1276
> >knuke LCIA.COM
> >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 08:18:06 2000
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Hi All,
   NOW we're getting the idea.
MJ

John Fields wrote:

> 
> How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> the original reservoir?
> 
> Free work!
> 
> ---
> 
> John Fields

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References: <v04011702b5c9ac406ac1 [207.8.127.125]> <39A40835.F8271F4D@austininstruments.com> <016901c00d37$6ab3bb20$5d441d26@fjsparber> <39A42A5A.21ACA293@groupz.net>
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um, actually it's 746 ft/lb = 1hp.isn't it?
MJ

sno wrote:
> 
> 550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
> equal...???
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> >
> > >
> > > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > > the original reservoir?
> > >
> > > Free work!
> >
> > Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> > 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> > about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > John Fields
> > >
> > >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 08:37:27 2000
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	 <008c01c00d44$cde136c0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <3.0.1.32.20000823180249.013525b8@earthtech.org>
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Hi All,
   Try adding soap to the water to cut the surface tension. Note: Even a
small success would be pretty great wouldn't it? Others can build on it
later. The first airplane wasn't much but look where it's gone since.
MJ

Scott Little wrote:
> 
> >George Holz wrote:
> 
> >> Why is everyone on this thread ignoring the
> >> energy it takes to break the surface tension
> >> bonds at the top of the column. That energy
> >> should equal the energy of formation that
> >> allowed the water to be lifted initially.
> 
> That's certainly what our informal experiments with this system showed.  If
> you make a thin J-shaped capillary that rises up a distance and then curves
> over, you find that the water will be sucked up into the capillary filling
> the entire thing but it will hang there at the mouth and not drip out on
> its own...provided the mouth of the tube is above the water level in the
> source reservoir.
> 
> We did succeed in making a self-starting siphon by turning the J-shaped
> capillary around so that the open end of the capillary was well below the
> level of water in the reservoir.  In other words, the capillary tube rose
> up and over the rim of a nearly-full glass of water and then went down the
> outside a fair distance below the water level before the tube ended.  When
> the inlet end of the capillary is lowered into contact with the water's
> surface, the capillary fills very rapidly and, due to the gravitational
> potential available, water starts dripping out of the open end...i.e. a
> self-starting siphon.
> 
> Due to the fine capillary required, the flow rate is pretty miserable in
> this siphon.
> 
> We also tried wicks....same result.
> 
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org

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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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A traditional approach:

  Dont do it! Meters are not designed for measurements in this manner. 
So dont blame anybody for erroneous measurements.
For more info see user manual if you can find it. :)

BTW, I did not yet observed the effect up to 5 Hz, Fred could you
tell me approx. revolution or swing speed about your experiment.

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 8:28 PM 8/25/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >I did a simple experiment using a digital ohmmeter on the lowest
> >resistance range. With the leads separated and shorted together
> >the meter read 0.6 ohms, but when the leads were rapidly moved
> >back and forth or in a circle the resistance changed sporadically
> >usually it increased.
> >
[snip]

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Nice debate. Wonderful how we can think of a device/system, design it,
build it and then trash it, all on a computer without any physical
objects being experimented with. Techno science at it's best.
MJ

Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
>      I agree. The system is OU. It is not even necessary to wring the water out. A vertical capillary tube or wick filled with water simply has more gravitational energy than one without. (Someone should perhaps study the nature of the capillary action 
itself to discover why, and not try to make a 'Rube Goldburg' device out of it at this time. Do we have any surface tension slash gravitational experts on this panel? <g>
> 
>      Best Regards,
>      Colin Quinney
> 
> ***{This is a complicated problem, and my opinion keeps shifting back and forth depending on whose comments I read last. The problem with Knuke's idea of using rollers to squeeze water out at the top of the system is that in order to increase the height
 to which the water is lifted, you need to use tubes of smaller diameters. Result: the higher you go, the more tubes you need to transport a given volume of water, and, thus, the more work you have to do to squeeze the water out. Hence we need to quantify
 the work done to squeeze the water out, in order to compare it to the potential energy that is acquired when the water is lifted. Until we can do that, we are guessing about whether this system is OU or not. To that end, therefore, I offer the following:

> 
> (1) If water is squeezed out of a frictionless tube, the only opposing force is surface tension, which resists the tendency of the water to bulge out of the end of the tube. The opposing force which must be overcome is 2¼rT, and the work done to overcom
e it is 2¼rTLn, where L is the length of tube that is squeezed by each stroke of the rollers and n is the number of tubes.
> 
> (2) The potential energy acquired by moving a cylindrical volume of water of length L to height h is [980¼(r^2)Ld]h. Since d, the density of water, is 1and since h = T/490r (as I demonstrated yesterday), we obtain 980¼(r^2)L[T/490r = 2¼rTL for the poten
tial energy in ergs of a single length of tubing, and, thus, the potential energy is 2¼rTLn for all of the tubes taken together.
> 
> Since the work done to squeeze the water out of a length L of capillary material is 2¼rTLn, and the total energy acquired by raising the contained water to that height is 2¼rTLn, it follows that there is no gain. The frictionless system has a C.O.P. of 
exactly 1.0, and, since real systems are not frictionless, any actual system of this sort that we build is going to yield less useful energy than we put into it.
> 
> Bottom line: despite the confusion, this system isn't over unity after all. :-(
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***

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550 ft/lbs/sec=745.6999 watts

Accorning to my conversion program...<grin>...sno

Enki wrote:

> um, actually it's 746 ft/lb = 1hp.isn't it?
> MJ
>
> sno wrote:
> >
> > 550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
> > equal...???
> >
> > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > > From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > > > the original reservoir?
> > > >
> > > > Free work!
> > >
> > > Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> > > 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> > > about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
> > >
> > > Regards,    Frederick
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > John Fields
> > > >
> > > >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 10:26:22 2000
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Hi,
   'Yall GOTTA look at this one! It is truly something apart. hehe
Check the date it was last updated (top of first page).
MJ
http://www.dnai.com/%7ezap/

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Mitchell Jones wrote:
Hi Mitchell,
   Responses below;
> 
> ***{Michael, the above is just a variant of the same fallacy you put forth earlier, 

I'm such a putter forth of fallacies aren't I? I am so ashamed! (Notice
I restrained myself from using the term Dickhead so far)

>when you were trying to pull water to unlimited heights using a suction pump. 

I started the post that way to stimulate a little discussion in a new
direction. It didn't really accomplish that (except for Knuke's
capillary model) because too many people (like you) have already decided
that anything new or different CANT BE DONE.

>What you didn't grasp then, and still do not grasp now, 

Keep trying to make veiled jabs at my intelligence and I'll give you
something to grasp right here! <grin>.

>is that the pressure inside a column of water that has been pulled up by suction, is *less* than atmospheric >pressure. 

Ok, so far you are getting the picture. How much less though and in what
particular type of device are you making reference to?

>That means when you open a hole between the inside and the outside, water will not flow out, to turn your >water wheel; instead, air will be sucked in, and the column of water will fall back to the level of the fluid in the pan.

What you didn't apparently grasp was that a pump can draw water out of
such a system without admitting any air back into the system. Don't
believe me? Look at the old fashioned handle type well pumps. They did
leak but not enough to matter in the short term and as long as you keep
pumping the leaks were not noticeable.


> 
> As I said in my earlier post to you, the pressure at the inlet of a suction pump is equal to atmospheric >pressure minus the head pressure of the column of water that you have pulled up, and, when that pressure >drops to the vapor pressure of water at 2
0 deg. C--about 18 mbar if memory serves--the water begins to boil, >and the pump thereafter sucks water vapor instead of water. 

Only starts to "boil" after the column of water goes higher than 30' or
so.

>The same idea permits you to calculate the pressure within the column at any point: simply subtract the head >pressure exerted by a column of that height--i.e., from pan level up to the point of interest--from >atmospheric pressure. Since you are always 
subtracting *something* to determine the pressure within the >column, it follows that the pressure everywhere within the column is less than the pressure at the same level >outside the column--which means: if you punch a hole at any point, air is going to
 come rushing in.

Except as outlined above. What this amounts to is that you really didn't
understand what I wrote did you? I tried to make it very simple but it
must have gone over your head. Sorry. I was sort of starting to like you
too. Oh well.....
MJ
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 10:47:06 2000
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To: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
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Subject: Lift... Pipe ???Re: If not Dameron, Then WHO? Please - Capillary , Action 
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	Dear Folks,

	One of the earlier posts cited someone demonstrating lifting water
via a "pipe" ... either on the bench, of by calculation ... and there was
a "Thank You" to Dave Demeron...

	Which is why I asked about him!
	
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Oh No, I am sorry about that, and will get that corrected immediately.
> There is a Dave Dameron that I correspond with on a frequent basis, and I
> must have just read the name wrong.  Colquhoun - Dameron, they're
> practically identical!  Not.
> 
> Really embarrassed,
> 
> Knuke
> 
> >You Wrote
> >http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m13743.html
> >
> >Thank you for posting my site.
> >
> >Im not Dave Dameron!
> >
> >Im Dave Colquhoun  (sounds like Calhoon)
> >drspark86 hotmail.com
> >
> >Regards  Dave Calhoon.
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 10:51:37 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Forest Fire Biomass Treesource
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>In the world of yesteryear the idea of burning old wood that had been used
>for housing or other manufactured items might have been feasible, but the
>Floridians are finding that now that just isn't the case.  Pesticides,
>especially termite treatments, and various other chemical wood treatments
>present more problems than originally thought when burned.

Yeah, that is also why trash-to-energy incineration projects have not
worked out well lately. As I said, biomass gasification avoids some of
these problems.


>One thing that would alleviate this would be to build sensible housing in
>the first place, taking into consideration of the locality and the need for
>chemical treatments in areas such as Florida.

Right! The building codes in some hurricane prone areas are scandalously
lax. Mobile homes are all too often deathtraps


>If you build a house to last a thousand years, it has real value.

A thousand years would be overkill, I think. One hundred years without
major reconstruction would be a more reasonable goal. I know several houses
that have lasted that long in the U.S. Traditional Japanese farm houses and
temples are pretty much shot after a hundred years, alas. In that humid
climate, the only way to rescue them from rot and disintegration is take
them apart down to the beams (which are massive beams cut from trees), and
rebuild them from scractch, according to carpenter I met years ago.


>As for driving 10,000 families from their homes and burning their
>possessions, you must be joking.

Would I joke about energy policy?!? Perish the thought. Hey, we burn food
(gasohol), so why not burn furniture, books, goldfish, household pets . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 11:01:05 2000
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Hi Ben,
   See below for responses;

Ben wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Let me get this straight, Ref: message 3, picture 1, you say you have
> built it and it runs?  

Yes. As pictured, with a hand pump it makes the water flow from the
catch basin, through 3 containers and out the pump back into the catch
basin. Using 1 pump with a certain flow to move it's designated amount
of water out of the last container causes an equal amount of water to
flow from the inlet pipes of the other containers, effectively tripling
your flow available for work, normally water flowing out of pump would
be only stream available.

Have you done a 24 hour test and it runs
> continously?  

MJ is not going to stand there and pump the damn thing for 24 hours
continuously! I need to get an electric pump (a better one, as I do have
a small one) and convert it to 12 volt DC to really do good tests as
generators in containers would be DC.

Are you sure.  Have you actually built a working
> physical model? 

Yes and yes.

 >Could you post a picture of it working?  

MJ does not have a digital camera.

>I just want
> to see the water move.  I'm not worrying about pumps right now.  Just
> circulation?  

Build one. Parts are $20 or less at Wal-Mart (redneck heaven).

Has anyone else duplicated this theory out there?  I'll
> go out tomorrow and buy some cheap plastic buckets, some hose from
> Home Depot, and try it out, If it works, I'll put pictures on my web
> site and let everyone know where to see it. 

Did you? I know it works, just build it like I said and NO AIR LEAKS is
the most important thing. Even tiny ones you can't see tend to fuck up
the performance. Lots of caulk.... Um...buckets? You do know the
containers have to have airtight tops don't you? Buckets wouldn't work
at all.

> I personally think you
> are pulling our legs!  

I wouldn't do that. I like reality far too much to have to lie.


What the heck, for fun, I'll try anything once!



That's the spirit Ben! Be original!
MJ
> 
> Thanks
> Ben
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 11:07:28 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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	Dear Folks,

	Assoon as you want to do good studies, the first thing is to KNOW
your instrumentation.

	There a MANY types of artifacts, especially in digital meter and
scope systems.  I am sure many Vos can come up with more, I ask them to
contribute.

	Here are some:
	
	Check the front end... Do you have Schematic for it?  If not...
then you don't know it...

	Many Digital DVM, abbreviated DDVM, have a switched capacitor
charge sampling front end... right out there in front of the whole
choir... and Nekkid!  Bare nekkid in some cases.

	Try this:

	Get TWO different DDVMS... and use one to look atthe other... with
all kinds of settings...

	Take you DDVM and put it near an AM transistor radio tuned to no
station... then tune next to and by stations... switch the DDVM through
settings and on and off. 

	Take the DDVM and connect it to a 1 to 10 meg ohm resistor....and
walk around...

	DDVM leads connected to audio amplifier... this will open your
eyes.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> I did a simple experiment using a digital ohmmeter on the lowest
> resistance range. With the leads separated and shorted together
> the meter read 0.6 ohms, but when the leads were rapidly moved
> back and forth or in a circle the resistance changed sporadically
> usually it increased.
> 
> With a 15.2 ohm resistor it increased as much as by a factor of ten.
> 
> There was no measurable voltage generated on the A.C. or D.C.
> millivolt settings, indicating that there has to be a current flowing in
> the rapidly moving/accelerating loop.
> 
> This goes back to my argument that Electric Motors/Generators
> are intrinsically OU in a Magnetogravity Field, depending on
> the orientation of the windings, etc.
> 
> IOW, there should be a Magnetogravity B Field at the Earth's surface
> that generates an EMF = v*B*L where v is the velocity (or an acceleration)
> of the loop, L is the loop length and B is the Magnetogravity Field (accelerated
> reference frame) which should dwarf the 0.5 gauss (5.0E-5 tesla) Geomagnetic B field.
> 
> I gave Vince a call to see if he could replicate this, and he got similar results with
> the ohmmeter leads shorted together and rapid movement of the test leads.
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 11:25:50 2000
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References: <v04011702b5c9ac406ac1 [207.8.127.125]> <39A40835.F8271F4D@austininstruments.com> <016901c00d37$6ab3bb20$5d441d26@fjsparber> <39A42A5A.21ACA293@groupz.net> <39A7E1A8.D1C3AA21@csrlink.net> <39A7FB44.B44D3384@groupz.net>
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Hi sno,
   MJ should learn to check a book before opening his mouth. Sno is
right. Mj was thinking watts. Sorry.
MJ

sno wrote:
> 
> 550 ft/lbs/sec=745.6999 watts
> 
> Accorning to my conversion program...<grin>...sno
> 
> Enki wrote:
> 
> > um, actually it's 746 ft/lb = 1hp.isn't it?
> > MJ
> >
> > sno wrote:
> > >
> > > 550 foot-pounds/second = 1 horsepower.......so what does 540 ft-lbs/day
> > > equal...???
> > >
> > > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How about letting it drip against a water wheel and then drip back into
> > > > > the original reservoir?
> > > > >
> > > > > Free work!
> > > >
> > > > Having harvested maple sugar in Feb-March where on a good run you could get
> > > > 15 gallons of sap (~ 3% sugar) in one day about six feet above grade, that's
> > > > about 540 foot-pounds worth of free (gravity) energy.  :-)
> > > >
> > > > Regards,    Frederick
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > John Fields
> > > > >
> > > > >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 12:15:03 2000
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Mitchell, Mitchell, Mitchell,
   Ok, here we go again, See below for responses;

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{Incorrect.

My, my, sure of ourselves aren't we?

> Suppose that atmospheric pressure is 15 psi,

Why would you make it more than normal air pressure?

> and that you need a 1.5 psi difference from the outside air to the leftmost air pocket, in order to pull the >fluid up the standpipe into the leftmost air pocket, 

Based on what do you assume a 1.5 psi difference?

>and that you need a 1 psi difference to pull fluid up >the standpipe from the leftmost air pocket to the >middle air pocket, and a 1 psi difference to pull fluid >from the middle pocket to the pocket on the right. >Result: the pressure at the pump inlet 
must be 15 - 1.5 - >1 -1 = 11.5 psi. Thus each additional air pocket >forces the pump to work harder, 

You know, I've actually thought of that. But also notice that (in your
example) the power requirements don't DOUBLE with each additional
chamber that is added to the system. You say that the power required
will increase by about 10% per chamber. Ok, well please note that the
water flow across all the chambers would be the same so in effect by
adding 10% in power you can DOUBLE the output power. Good point! Thank
you for making it for me!

>or, in your words, "puts >additional stress on the system." If you had ten air pockets instead of three, for >example, then the pressure >at the pump inlet would have to be 15 - 1.5 - 9 = 4.5 psi. Thus the pump would >have to work *much harder* in >that 
case, than in the case where there are merely 3 air pockets in the flow >loop. Moreover, since the >pressure drops progressively as you move from left to right, 

Kinda like voltage drops in a series electrical cell isn't it? So I
guess the current/water flow in each chamber would also be equal in both
cases wouldn't it? AND that you could vary the resistance of the
chamber/cell/resistor in all these examples to increase the number of
cells that can be put onto the circuit while maintaining the SAME
current/water flow in EACH CELL. In the water chamber example resistance
would be varied by adjusting the interior diameter of the pipes/tubes to
accommodate the rate of flow that your pump creates. Interesting, isn't
it? Thanks again for proving me right! This is great!


>it follows that
> if you add enough air pockets in the system, the pressure at the pump inlet will eventually fall to the >vapor pressure of the water, and the water in the rightmost air pocket will begin to boil. Result: your pump >will begin to suck water vapor instead
 of water, and you will have reached the absolute physical limit of the >system. At that point,

Adjust parameters of the system (especially resistance) and add more
chambers or be happy with the OU that you have with 3 chambers.


>if you will add the up the lengths of all the standpipes in your system, you will find >that the total comes >to about 35 feet--

Exactly how do you figure that? You are VERY wrong there. I can prove my
claims with accepted physics. I don't think you can.


>which means: this scheme,

Scheme?! See, there we go again with the little digs, the tiny insults.
What happened to you? Your mother drop you on your head when you were
young or was it your dad, flying into drunken rages at you and beating
you unconscious whenever you wanted a new toy? Sad, such a waste...

> conceptually, is identical to the first one >you proposed, and is >subject to the same logical fallacy: the >pressure progressively drops in the system, as >you move toward the >pump inlet, in the same manner as for >the original system that you propose
d. Result: the >more columns of >water you raise over that interval, the >more the pressure must drop at the pump inlet, and >the more work the >pump must do. --Mitchell Jones}***

Hmmmm, Well, since the air pressure decides how far the column of water
can rise, the first one (from the catch basin) could go the standard 30'
before "boiling off" and if the air pressure inside the first chamber
was 10% less than standard pressure it follows that it could only lift
the water 90% of the distance that the first one did (27' now) so the
total height so far (as figured by your model above) is 30' + 27' = 57'
hmmmm, I guess I am right! Thanks again for proving me right!
   By the way, did you notice something? If there were a water wheel
inside each of the chambers going up, and one or more outside going down
you are generating energy on BOTH SIDES of the fucking cycle!
HAHAHHAAHHAHHAHHA!
Kindest Regards,
MJ
> 
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 12:29:00 2000
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Hi David,
Responses below;

David Dennard wrote:
> 
> MJ, when water goes down by gravity that energy has never been shown to be
> enought to raise the same amount of water. 

Not till I came along anyway.

> I think it is true. 

Of course it is but thank you anyway.



> But I also
> think anything never tested should be tried, that is what "real" science is,
> test and experiment.  Not trying to to prove or disprove anything.  That's
> the job of a "real" scientist.

I did build one and am building more even as we speak. I said in the
paper exactly what I had built to date and how it worked.

MJ
> 
> Theorists however are supposed to speculate and propose the tests.  That's
> the Scientific Method.
> 
> These days are all backwards, scientists are pretending to be theorists, and
> theorists are testing their own proposals pretending to be scientists.
> 
> Even so I encourage any amateur scientist to test since the "real"
> scientists rarely listen to the theorists.  They are "want to be" theorists.
>   But really there is not way a "real" scientist can be a theorist.  Theory
> need the artistic side of the brain.  It is art.  Science needs the
> analytical side of the brain.  Together two heads are better than one.
> 
> David
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 12:50:47 2000
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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:47:57 -0400
From: sno <sno groupz.net>
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Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
References: <v04011702b5c9ac406ac1 [207.8.127.125]> <39A40835.F8271F4D@austininstruments.com> <016901c00d37$6ab3bb20$5d441d26@fjsparber> <39A42A5A.21ACA293@groupz.net> <39A7E1A8.D1C3AA21@csrlink.net> <39A7FB44.B44D3384@groupz.net> <39A80CE9.AE2B92FE@csrli
nk.net>
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If anyone wants a real good conversion program....free...converts
anything to anything.....small and fast.....see this site....

http://www.joshmadison.com/software/

sno (steve)

Enki wrote:

> Hi sno,
>    MJ should learn to check a book before opening his mouth. Sno is
> right. Mj was thinking watts. Sorry.
> MJ
>
> sno wrote:
> >
> > 550 ft/lbs/sec=745.6999 watts
> >
> > Accorning to my conversion program...<grin>...sno

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 12:59:21 2000
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Hi All,
   How's it going? Missed me all week didn't you (I know you did)? Ok
then, let's start right in here. If you remember my concept post from
last week I showed you how to get OU from water in a series of airtight
chambers. Before I even mentioned it some of the more astute observers
in the audience assumed that I was going to propose stacking the
chambers on top of each other, very good. Unfortunately those same
people also proceeded to point out why this would be IMPOSSIBLE. Let me
throw out a couple points for consideration;
1) Pascal's Law. This states that; An external pressure applied to a
confined fluid (or gas for that matter) increases the pressure at every
point in the fluid (or gas) by an amount equal to the external pressure.
   Simple enough isn't it? Anyone want to argue with Mr. Pascal? This is
the basis for hydraulics. Since this concept has been more than proven
to be true I don't think that we need to dispute it. What about the
reverse of it though? Doesn't that also work? That being; An external
reduction of the pressure within a confined fluid (or gas) results in
the lessening of the pressure at every point in the  fluid (or gas) by
an amount equal to the external reduction in pressure? The reduction of
pressure in this case coming from the action of the pump in removing
water from the first chamber. Now relate that to my little device.
2)The height to which a liquid will rise in a SINGLE tube is determined
by the air pressure on the surface of the fluid in the container at the
base of the column/pipe. That means that the first container could draw
directly from the catch basin and could draw the water the full 30'. The
next one, operating under reduced pressure could not draw water up 30'
but rather to a height equal to the amount of pressure on it's base in
the container. If the air pressure in said container was 1/2 of standard
atmospheric pressure then it could only draw the water up 15' BUT if you
add those two together you see that the result is 45' which is higher
than the previous 30' limit.
3) Also note that if each canister has a water wheel within it AND you
then have one or more being acted upon by the water on it's way back
DOWN to the catch basin you are creating energy on BOTH SIDES of the
cycle. Food for thought? i think so.
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 13:26:31 2000
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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:31:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: John Allen  E mail ... my versions bounce...
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	Dear, Vo,

	Anyone have a real E mail  for John Allen?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 13:43:33 2000
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From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
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Hi All,
   Someone asked about this. the first link is where to get blueprints
(free) and all for the device.
MJ

http://www.dnai.com/%7ezap/rory.htm
http://www.broandrew.com/suppression.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 14:21:07 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on the water chamber device
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:17:50 PDT
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A Hero's Fountain, if it really works!!!!

If I had one going I'd put a live cam on it somehow, that would be hard for 
me to figure now too.

Can it so it and generate any usable energy?

Would simply making it larger generate more energy?

David




>From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>
>Subject: More on the water chamber device
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:04:51 -0400
>
>Hi All,
>    How's it going? Missed me all week didn't you (I know you did)? Ok
>then, let's start right in here. If you remember my concept post from
>last week I showed you how to get OU from water in a series of airtight
>chambers. Before I even mentioned it some of the more astute observers
>in the audience assumed that I was going to propose stacking the
>chambers on top of each other, very good. Unfortunately those same
>people also proceeded to point out why this would be IMPOSSIBLE. Let me
>throw out a couple points for consideration;
>1) Pascal's Law. This states that; An external pressure applied to a
>confined fluid (or gas for that matter) increases the pressure at every
>point in the fluid (or gas) by an amount equal to the external pressure.
>    Simple enough isn't it? Anyone want to argue with Mr. Pascal? This is
>the basis for hydraulics. Since this concept has been more than proven
>to be true I don't think that we need to dispute it. What about the
>reverse of it though? Doesn't that also work? That being; An external
>reduction of the pressure within a confined fluid (or gas) results in
>the lessening of the pressure at every point in the  fluid (or gas) by
>an amount equal to the external reduction in pressure? The reduction of
>pressure in this case coming from the action of the pump in removing
>water from the first chamber. Now relate that to my little device.
>2)The height to which a liquid will rise in a SINGLE tube is determined
>by the air pressure on the surface of the fluid in the container at the
>base of the column/pipe. That means that the first container could draw
>directly from the catch basin and could draw the water the full 30'. The
>next one, operating under reduced pressure could not draw water up 30'
>but rather to a height equal to the amount of pressure on it's base in
>the container. If the air pressure in said container was 1/2 of standard
>atmospheric pressure then it could only draw the water up 15' BUT if you
>add those two together you see that the result is 45' which is higher
>than the previous 30' limit.
>3) Also note that if each canister has a water wheel within it AND you
>then have one or more being acted upon by the water on it's way back
>DOWN to the catch basin you are creating energy on BOTH SIDES of the
>cycle. Food for thought? i think so.
>MJ
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 14:21:40 2000
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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:23:36 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Electrostatic gradient distiller?
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Here is a new approach to achieving condensation.

Bipolar molecules like water should be attracted by high voltage gradients.
Water molecues in a 100 percent water atmosphere in a vacuum chamber
should be attracted to high gradient structures, like charged thin wires or
a charged small conductive ball inside a conductive sphere, where they
would tend to condense.  A high voltage gradient in such a circumstance can
be efficiently maintained because there is no net charge motion.  No energy
is requied to maintain an electrostatic field if there is no net charge
migration.  Polarity can be reversed periodically to compensate for a small
leakage current. A high volatge insulating layer can be placed between the
electrodes to prevent sparking or arcing or possibly even actual conduction
of leakage currents.

If water is condensed on such a high gradient structure (call it the
condesation structure), then vapor pressure is reduced overall in the
chamber and water will be evaporated from any available pool of water
inside the vacuum chamber and remote from the gradient.  Thus warmer water
condenses on the charged structure and the remote pool of water cools, with
little or no energy supplied, thus violating conservation of energy as well
as providing the useful distillation process.

Capillaries might be used to create the condensation structure, and to
provide a water surface upon which the attracted water molecules can
readily condense.

The flaw in this concept seems likely to be that even though the water
molecules are selectively attracted to the high gradient structure, thus
increasing their partial pressure there, there must be a reverse process
that changes the evaporation equilibrium.  It would seem that a postive
water surface would tend to throw off H3O+ ions, and a negative surface
would tend to throw off OH- ions.  Periodic reversal of polarity, to
compensate for the resulting trickle current,  would cause a recombination
of OH- and H3O+ ions near the condensation structure and result in warming
there, thus further reducing the condensation there.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 16:12:19 2000
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Hello Horace,
   Capital idea,wot? Perhaps such a design could actually serve to draw
the water molecules out of the capillary/wicking material in a way
similar to that demonstrated by the evaporation of water.
Good Show.
The newly chastened - MJ

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> Here is a new approach to achieving condensation.
> 
> Bipolar molecules like water should be attracted by high voltage gradients.
> Water molecues in a 100 percent water atmosphere in a vacuum chamber
> should be attracted to high gradient structures, like charged thin wires or
> a charged small conductive ball inside a conductive sphere, where they
> would tend to condense.  A high voltage gradient in such a circumstance can
> be efficiently maintained because there is no net charge motion.  No energy
> is requied to maintain an electrostatic field if there is no net charge
> migration.  Polarity can be reversed periodically to compensate for a small
> leakage current. A high volatge insulating layer can be placed between the
> electrodes to prevent sparking or arcing or possibly even actual conduction
> of leakage currents.
> 
> If water is condensed on such a high gradient structure (call it the
> condesation structure), then vapor pressure is reduced overall in the
> chamber and water will be evaporated from any available pool of water
> inside the vacuum chamber and remote from the gradient.  Thus warmer water
> condenses on the charged structure and the remote pool of water cools, with
> little or no energy supplied, thus violating conservation of energy as well
> as providing the useful distillation process.
> 
> Capillaries might be used to create the condensation structure, and to
> provide a water surface upon which the attracted water molecules can
> readily condense.
> 
> The flaw in this concept seems likely to be that even though the water
> molecules are selectively attracted to the high gradient structure, thus
> increasing their partial pressure there, there must be a reverse process
> that changes the evaporation equilibrium.  It would seem that a postive
> water surface would tend to throw off H3O+ ions, and a negative surface
> would tend to throw off OH- ions.  Periodic reversal of polarity, to
> compensate for the resulting trickle current,  would cause a recombination
> of OH- and H3O+ ions near the condensation structure and result in warming
> there, thus further reducing the condensation there.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 16:45:20 2000
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Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:51:36 -0400
From: The much nicer now - Enki <enki csrlink.net>
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Hi David,

David Dennard wrote:
> 
> A Hero's Fountain, if it really works!!!!
The one I made works but I haven't put any generators in it. Sort of
stands to reason though that as long as you have the streams of water
going in the chambers the weight of the water will turn a water wheel.
Making all the chambers horizontal instead of vertical would definitely
work. There are limits on the size because of the limits of how high a
collumn of water can go but if you make the interior dimensions larger
it could fit a larger wheel inside it and so give you more leverage fro
the same flow of water.
MJ
MJ
> 
> If I had one going I'd put a live cam on it somehow, that would be hard for
> me to figure now too.
> 
> Can it so it and generate any usable energy?
> 
> Would simply making it larger generate more energy?
> 
> David
> 
> >From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>
> >Subject: More on the water chamber device
> >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:04:51 -0400
> >
> >Hi All,
> >    How's it going? Missed me all week didn't you (I know you did)? Ok
> >then, let's start right in here. If you remember my concept post from
> >last week I showed you how to get OU from water in a series of airtight
> >chambers. Before I even mentioned it some of the more astute observers
> >in the audience assumed that I was going to propose stacking the
> >chambers on top of each other, very good. Unfortunately those same
> >people also proceeded to point out why this would be IMPOSSIBLE. Let me
> >throw out a couple points for consideration;
> >1) Pascal's Law. This states that; An external pressure applied to a
> >confined fluid (or gas for that matter) increases the pressure at every
> >point in the fluid (or gas) by an amount equal to the external pressure.
> >    Simple enough isn't it? Anyone want to argue with Mr. Pascal? This is
> >the basis for hydraulics. Since this concept has been more than proven
> >to be true I don't think that we need to dispute it. What about the
> >reverse of it though? Doesn't that also work? That being; An external
> >reduction of the pressure within a confined fluid (or gas) results in
> >the lessening of the pressure at every point in the  fluid (or gas) by
> >an amount equal to the external reduction in pressure? The reduction of
> >pressure in this case coming from the action of the pump in removing
> >water from the first chamber. Now relate that to my little device.
> >2)The height to which a liquid will rise in a SINGLE tube is determined
> >by the air pressure on the surface of the fluid in the container at the
> >base of the column/pipe. That means that the first container could draw
> >directly from the catch basin and could draw the water the full 30'. The
> >next one, operating under reduced pressure could not draw water up 30'
> >but rather to a height equal to the amount of pressure on it's base in
> >the container. If the air pressure in said container was 1/2 of standard
> >atmospheric pressure then it could only draw the water up 15' BUT if you
> >add those two together you see that the result is 45' which is higher
> >than the previous 30' limit.
> >3) Also note that if each canister has a water wheel within it AND you
> >then have one or more being acted upon by the water on it's way back
> >DOWN to the catch basin you are creating energy on BOTH SIDES of the
> >cycle. Food for thought? i think so.
> >MJ
> >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 17:00:55 2000
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From: The much nicer now - Enki <enki csrlink.net>
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References: <v04011702b5c9ac406ac1 [207.8.127.125]> <39A40835.F8271F4D@austininstruments.com> <016901c00d37$6ab3bb20$5d441d26@fjsparber> <39A42A5A.21ACA293@groupz.net> <39A7E1A8.D1C3AA21@csrlink.net> <39A7FB44.B44D3384@groupz.net> <39A80CE9.AE2B92FE@csrli
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Thanks sno, I got it.
Mj

sno wrote:
> 
> If anyone wants a real good conversion program....free...converts
> anything to anything.....small and fast.....see this site....
> 
> http://www.joshmadison.com/software/
> 
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 17:36:01 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Aug 25, 2000]
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Terry writes:
>> WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 25 Aug 00   Washington, DC
>
><snip>
>
>> It
>> "penetrates the prostate, colon, ovaries, uterus and reproductive
>> organs." (Probably not all on the same person.)  Advertisers for
>> magnetic products say they're effective because the pineal gland
>> is a "magnetic engine."  Fine, so put the shorts where they can
>> do the most good - on your head.  
>
>. . .
>
>As much as I dislike the man, he is funny  . . .
>
>Maybe he is always joking.
>
>Terry

Yeah, I agree with you.   Maybe we're all a little manic right now because
of that submarine sinking thing.  I was really sorry to hear that the people
inside all died, they were sailors, and probably as good as they get.  At
the same time, I was really happy that the whole thing didn't go up.  The
idea that vehicles of that kind are in the water and in the air 24/7 gets
shoved to the back our minds until we see an accident like that, and realize
that half the planet could go up in a few seconds.

There is a big controversy going on in Seattle right now about whether or
not to allow the Navy to promote the Trident submarine at the annual Seafair
Festival.  The Navy never really asked about it either, I guess.  They just
showed up at one and started giving tours.  I never took the tours although
I wanted to, mainly because I was usually up North during that time.  Some
friends of mine have, and told me about them.  I have read a bit about them,
and they are probably one of the greatest wonders of the world as works of
engineering go.  The enormous killing capability of them is staggering, they
cost billions for each one, plus the billions to develop them.

If Park wants to crack wise about magnetic underwear or whatever, that's
fine.  I can understand it if he doesn't want to or simply cannot face the
reality of the important issues of the day.  If an accident does occur in
any one of the thousands of nuclear armed vehicles that are currently
deployed today, it won't really matter.  Many of us will be dead, and the
rest of us will die shortly thereafter.  Yuk it up.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 19:39:46 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on the water chamber device
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:38:40 PDT
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MJ,
I'm sure you have seen the standard Hero's Fountain of classic physics, has 
a similar ring to it but no water wheel.  If you have seen www.thepump.org 
there is a similar idea, no water wheel.

The comments made about viscosity carry up were very good.

I have logged in somewhere in my 10,000 pages a similar idea on the back 
side, but on the front side the drip of water does not touch the wheel, it 
lands right in front, is focused by the shape of the trough like container 
and the ripples drive the wheel with just a tiny bit of the wheel barely 
touching the water.  Then viscosity holds it returning the drip.  This fits 
into my concept that the energy can be harnessed on the horizontal, not 
"falling" water, and ripples are like whirlpools.

I don't think Ripple Drive is of much use as far as energy goes.  But 
definative as to application of Whirlpower.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc




>From: The much nicer now - Enki <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: More on the water chamber device
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:51:36 -0400
>
>Hi David,
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > A Hero's Fountain, if it really works!!!!
>The one I made works but I haven't put any generators in it. Sort of
>stands to reason though that as long as you have the streams of water
>going in the chambers the weight of the water will turn a water wheel.
>Making all the chambers horizontal instead of vertical would definitely
>work. There are limits on the size because of the limits of how high a
>collumn of water can go but if you make the interior dimensions larger
>it could fit a larger wheel inside it and so give you more leverage fro
>the same flow of water.
>MJ
>MJ
> >
> > If I had one going I'd put a live cam on it somehow, that would be hard 
>for
> > me to figure now too.
> >
> > Can it so it and generate any usable energy?
> >
> > Would simply making it larger generate more energy?
> >
> > David
> >
> > >From: Enki <enki csrlink.net>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>
> > >Subject: More on the water chamber device
> > >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:04:51 -0400
> > >
> > >Hi All,
> > >    How's it going? Missed me all week didn't you (I know you did)? Ok
> > >then, let's start right in here. If you remember my concept post from
> > >last week I showed you how to get OU from water in a series of airtight
> > >chambers. Before I even mentioned it some of the more astute observers
> > >in the audience assumed that I was going to propose stacking the
> > >chambers on top of each other, very good. Unfortunately those same
> > >people also proceeded to point out why this would be IMPOSSIBLE. Let me
> > >throw out a couple points for consideration;
> > >1) Pascal's Law. This states that; An external pressure applied to a
> > >confined fluid (or gas for that matter) increases the pressure at every
> > >point in the fluid (or gas) by an amount equal to the external 
>pressure.
> > >    Simple enough isn't it? Anyone want to argue with Mr. Pascal? This 
>is
> > >the basis for hydraulics. Since this concept has been more than proven
> > >to be true I don't think that we need to dispute it. What about the
> > >reverse of it though? Doesn't that also work? That being; An external
> > >reduction of the pressure within a confined fluid (or gas) results in
> > >the lessening of the pressure at every point in the  fluid (or gas) by
> > >an amount equal to the external reduction in pressure? The reduction of
> > >pressure in this case coming from the action of the pump in removing
> > >water from the first chamber. Now relate that to my little device.
> > >2)The height to which a liquid will rise in a SINGLE tube is determined
> > >by the air pressure on the surface of the fluid in the container at the
> > >base of the column/pipe. That means that the first container could draw
> > >directly from the catch basin and could draw the water the full 30'. 
>The
> > >next one, operating under reduced pressure could not draw water up 30'
> > >but rather to a height equal to the amount of pressure on it's base in
> > >the container. If the air pressure in said container was 1/2 of 
>standard
> > >atmospheric pressure then it could only draw the water up 15' BUT if 
>you
> > >add those two together you see that the result is 45' which is higher
> > >than the previous 30' limit.
> > >3) Also note that if each canister has a water wheel within it AND you
> > >then have one or more being acted upon by the water on it's way back
> > >DOWN to the catch basin you are creating energy on BOTH SIDES of the
> > >cycle. Food for thought? i think so.
> > >MJ
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 20:48:44 2000
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 <v04011701b5cafbdbf25e [207.8.127.67]>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:47:05 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
Resent-Message-ID: <"bqLiK.0.kB1.Ez8gv" mx1>
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>Nice debate. Wonderful how we can think of a device/system, design it,
>build it and then trash it, all on a computer without any physical
>objects being experimented with. Techno science at it's best.
>MJ

***{Absolutely correct. Doing actual experiments, or building prototypes,
can cost untold hours and millions of dollars. But with a group like this,
you can frequently save your money: just toss out your idea, and wait for
someone to shoot it down!

Such benefits, of course, are only available to that segment of the
population which is able to overcome silly fears of loss of face, and
simply put forth their opinions and ideas in front of critics. At the
present time, few have the courage to do that, and, as a result, only a
tiny minority are experiencing the rapid improvements in knowledge and
productivity which that type of interaction makes possible. However, the
long-term implications for the broader population are very positive: such
behavior cannot help but spread, as more and more people, by observation,
begin to comprehend the profound synergism between the following
statements: "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
hurt you;" and "That which does not kill you makes you stronger."

Oddly, a major obstacle in the path to such benefits is the managements of
the companies who would gain the most: typical companies grant web access
to their white collar employees, but block usenet and list groups on the
grounds that such activities are analogous to game playing, and are thus a
waste of time. That doesn't mean they prefer that their engineers,
scientists, and other technical personnel be forced to constantly re-invent
the wheel, of course. The cause of such attitudes is ignorance, plain and
simple. Most managers simply do not see the productivity related benefits
of discussion groups.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 20:57:47 2000
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: DOE Laser Facility Facing Problems 
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--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> The anti-CF skeptics should turn their wrath on the inertial confinement
> fusion. It has technical problems, and it cannot be reproduced, because
> there is only one experiment. By their warped standards, it does not
> exist.

NIF (National ignition facility), which has serious management and
technological problems, is still under construction. When built, because of
its size and cost, it will be one of a kind for a long time.

As for reproducibility in the general field of inertial confinement fusion,
there have been at least three major independent laser inertial fusion
programs going on in the world for a long time, one in the USA, one in
France and one in Japan. The latter has published more openly, perhaps
because Japan doesn't pretend to have military applications of laser
fusion, nor does Japan have a stockpile to "stew" over.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 21:06:52 2000
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Hi Mitchell,

>
> ***{Absolutely correct. Doing actual experiments, or building prototypes,
> can cost untold hours and millions of dollars.

Depending on the device in question. Sometimes only a small portion of a new
design actually needs to be tested and often, in these circumstances, the cost
of testing is minimal.

> But with a group like this,
> you can frequently save your money: just toss out your idea, and wait for
> someone to shoot it down!

In a truly new or unique concept what pre-existing knowledge is there?

>
>
> Such benefits, of course, are only available to that segment of the
> population which is able to overcome silly fears of loss of face, and
> simply put forth their opinions and ideas in front of critics.

Perhaps critics should refrain from using words like "silly, useless, idiotic
and scheme" when making their criticisms. And maybe "shoot down" could be taken
by some as a rather combative way to describe "constructive criticism".

> At the
> present time, few have the courage to do that, and, as a result, only a
> tiny minority are experiencing the rapid improvements in knowledge and
> productivity which that type of interaction makes possible.

With rather personal attacks being the norm is it any wonder?

> However, the
> long-term implications for the broader population are very positive: such
> behavior cannot help but spread, as more and more people, by observation,
> begin to comprehend the profound synergism between the following
> statements: "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
> hurt you;" and "That which does not kill you makes you stronger."

I can live by that rule ;-> One benefit i see is that citizens of countries who
are in or near a war could talk out their government's motivation for killing
them off.

>
>
> Oddly, a major obstacle in the path to such benefits is the managements of
> the companies

or governments in the above referenced case.

> who would gain the most: typical companies grant web access
> to their white collar employees, but block usenet and list groups on the
> grounds that such activities are analogous to game playing, and are thus a
> waste of time. That doesn't mean they prefer that their engineers,
> scientists, and other technical personnel be forced to constantly re-invent
> the wheel, of course. The cause of such attitudes is ignorance, plain and
> simple. Most managers simply do not see the productivity related benefits
> of discussion groups.

Ok, enough science for today (at 8:15am, let's look at porn for the rest of the
day)hehe
MJ

>
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 23:00:20 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Forest Fire Biomass Treesource
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>
>Response below;
> 
>> Jed writes:
>> >With proper planning, after a large hurricane in Florida or Georgia, you
>> >could harvest the toppled trees, smashed apartment complexes and shredded
>> >mobile homes, and fuel the electric utilities for weeks.
>
>Really? Which power plants in existence now are set up to run off these
>types of fuel? Are you ready to pay the millions of dollars per plant to
>convert them to running off trash? How could you get a uniform burn from
>such diverse fuels? Who would you get to pull out all the nails, etc..
>from the boards? Are you planning to burn the plywood (and the glue it
>is held together with) or just the 2x4's etc.? What about the shingles
>(asphalt) and other roofing (rubber) and the various types of
>insulation?

Hi Michael,

Actually, the electrical utility in the county in which I currently exist is
a trash burner.  Some slick talking moron talked and bribed the local
government into building this bright idea around 10 years ago, and now the
problems associated with it are surfacing.  The salesmen and contractors are
gone of course, and their corporations no longer exist.  The county is
trying to decide what to do about it, and how to break the news to the local
residents that they will have to pay for an alternative of some sort, and
the first one hasn't even paid for itself yet.  It is not unlike the
situation with the nuclear power industry, but maybe only a little less
staggeringly dumb.  The main problem that they've had is with the level of
mercury in the trash.  Of course, all the other pollutants go into the air
as well, but mercury is a neurotoxin.

Many of the pollutants that are used as pesticides are neurotoxins as well.
The most insidious are the ones that have to penetrate deeply into the wood
like the termite poisons, or are designed to penetrate the hulls of the
cockroach.  Cockroaches breathe through their pores, and have the ability to
shut their pores when sprayed.  This limited the effectiveness of the old
pesticides, and so the poison manufacturers put a very effective solvent
into the aerosol mix that delivers the poison right through the shell of the
cockroach.  Even that wasn't enough, as people down here actually enjoy the
sport of watching the cockroaches twitch around after spraying them instead
of watching them run under the fridge, so the contest was on between the
poison developers to create a spray that would immediately deliver just
enough poison to make them deranged enough to not be able to run, but not
enough to kill them right away.  They twitch around for over a half an hour
much to delight of the children and their loving parents.

The terrible thing about this is that they use these sprays everywhere,
including grocery stores, restaurants, food delivery trucks and food
warehouses.  The aerosol solvent shoots right through plastic, cellophane,
wax paper, and cellulose boxes and delivers the same neurotoxins to the
food.  Only canned goods or goods that come in glass jars are immune to this
type of attack, and shelves that are sprayed keep the active residue on them
for about 6 weeks.  You can buy all the "organically grown", "100% Natural"
or Kosher food that you want, and pay the premium for each, but it doesn't
matter.  Somewhere along the line, they will all get the same treatment
thanks to the non-stop marketing efforts of the chemical poison industry.

People then eat this food, and you can actually taste the poisons on the
periphery of whatever you buy.  In most cases, you can't wash it off,
either.  For example when I buy a tub of margerine or ice cream, I can taste
it on the top layer of the product, but less so below that.  I can taste it
on the product that is in contact with the sides and bottom of the tub.  I
have to go in about an inch before it starts tasting like the product.  It
makes my tongue and the roof of my mouth go numb, I feel it go through my
bloodstream, and when it hits my brain, I get sluggish for an hour or so.  I
have trouble focusing on what I read.  Pregnant women eat this stuff or
simply come into contact with it, and the poison goes right into the fetus
at a time of critical organ development.  It is sprayed on lawns, golf
courses, and parks where young children play.

People blame the educational community for not producing intelligent
graduates, but part of the problem is that down here, most people are simply
retarded from birth by the chemical poison industry.  Tests are showing that
intelligent quotients have dropped 10 points in the last ten years, which is
not an indication so much of poor educational technique, as it is an
indication of poor brain function.

You can see the results of it everywhere down here, and no one is immune to
it.  Even the wealthy and the local elected officials are simply stoned
stupid on this stuff all the time, and they don't realize it because
everyone else around them is the same way.  I've seen doctors, lawyers, and
other professionals since I've been down here that couldn't read or write
properly, or add or subtract, or perform any logical reasoning function to
any high degree.  Their pride of course, is usually the main obstacle to
getting them to see that they are truly retarded compared to the rest of the
world, and to do something about the health of their future generations.
Admitting that they might have been wrong about something is considered a
weakness.  Both of these things are cultural, and could be corrected, but
the original brain damage can't.  There is not much the average person can
do about it, other than to continue to press the government into changing
the way we do things, and closing down these poison industries.

Burning the trash from this kind of place only serves to distribute the
poison into the air, water, and ground.  The energy derived is not worth it
- not at any price.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 26 23:49:44 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Free Energy 1 (reprise to criticism #1)
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Hi Mitchell,
>   Responses below;
>>
>> ***{Michael, the above is just a variant of the same fallacy you put
>>forth earlier,
>
>I'm such a putter forth of fallacies aren't I? I am so ashamed! (Notice
>I restrained myself from using the term Dickhead so far)

***{Nobody said you should be ashamed. Everybody succumbs to fallacies now
and then. It isn't a dirty word. You need to relax. --MJ}***

>
>>when you were trying to pull water to unlimited heights using a suction
>>pump.
>
>I started the post that way to stimulate a little discussion in a new
>direction. It didn't really accomplish that (except for Knuke's
>capillary model) because too many people (like you) have already decided
>that anything new or different CANT BE DONE.

***{I never said that, never implied it, and never thought it. You should
leave the mind reading to the lady with the crystal ball. --MJ}***

>
>>What you didn't grasp then, and still do not grasp now,
>
>Keep trying to make veiled jabs at my intelligence and I'll give you
>something to grasp right here! <grin>.

***{No jab, just fact. It isn't an insult. Physics is complicated, and we
all see parts of it wrong now and then. If you read this group long enough,
you will probably see it happen to me. --MJ}***

>
>>is that the pressure inside a column of water that has been pulled up by
>>suction, is *less* than atmospheric >pressure.
>
>Ok, so far you are getting the picture. How much less though and in what
>particular type of device are you making reference to?

***{I was talking about the diagram that you drew. --MJ}***

>
>>That means when you open a hole between the inside and the outside, water
>>will not flow out, to turn your >water wheel; instead, air will be sucked
>>in, and the column of water will fall back to the level of the fluid in
>>the pan.
>
>What you didn't apparently grasp was that a pump can draw water out of
>such a system without admitting any air back into the system. Don't
>believe me? Look at the old fashioned handle type well pumps. They did
>leak but not enough to matter in the short term and as long as you keep
>pumping the leaks were not noticeable.

***{You are missing the point. You drew a little tube sticking out of the
side of an inverted container that was holding a column of water above the
level in the pan in which it was immersed, and you showed a stream of water
squirting out of that tube, falling down to a water wheel, and presumably
turning it. My point was that the tube would not squirt water out; it would
suck air in. Result: instead of turning the water wheel, the level of water
in the inside of the inverted vessel would fall, the pan would overflow,
and you would have a big mess. What you would *not* have, however, would be
free energy. --MJ}***

>
>
>>
>> As I said in my earlier post to you, the pressure at the inlet of a
>>suction pump is equal to atmospheric >pressure minus the head pressure of
>>the column of water that you have pulled up, and, when that pressure
>>>drops to the vapor pressure of water at 20 deg. C--about 18 mbar if
>>memory serves--the water begins to boil, >and the pump thereafter sucks
>>water vapor instead of water.
>
>Only starts to "boil" after the column of water goes higher than 30' or
>so.
>
>>The same idea permits you to calculate the pressure within the column at
>>any point: simply subtract the head >pressure exerted by a column of that
>>height--i.e., from pan level up to the point of interest--from
>>>atmospheric pressure. Since you are always subtracting *something* to
>>determine the pressure within the >column, it follows that the pressure
>>everywhere within the column is less than the pressure at the same level
>>>outside the column--which means: if you punch a hole at any point, air
>>is going to come rushing in.
>
>Except as outlined above. What this amounts to is that you really didn't
>understand what I wrote did you? I tried to make it very simple but it
>must have gone over your head. Sorry. I was sort of starting to like you
>too. Oh well.....
>MJ

***{Actually, I would say that you don't understand what I wrote. Given the
various indications of emotionality in your response, I don't find that
surprising. Suggestion: calm yourself, and then go back and re-read your
post (the one to which I was responding), and then re-read my post again
and think about it very carefully. You need to do that because the types of
designs you are interested in are classical perpetual motion schemes. Vast
numbers of them have been built and tested, going back to the time of
Newton and beyond. None of them worked, because they violate basic laws of
physics. I wasn't trying to insult you when I pointed that out. I was
trying to save you *a lot* of time and effort. If I seemed sure of myself
on this particular point, it is because I was, and am. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 01:54:16 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 01:53:51 PDT
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Obviously MJ had his tongue pressed hard on his cheek.  This list is of no 
benefit to those of us who are trying new things.  Except to find out if 
these things are of common knowledge or have been tried before.

In my opinion the know it all attitude and put down of new ideas by 
"science" dogma is the furtherest thing from science there is and worse on 
this list than I have seen on any list.  Real science is about tests and 
experiments, not put downs and personal attacks.

But like I said earlier, those real scientists that are here that have work 
going in the new energy field have been put down by the actual real 
scientist further up the food chain.  They just pass the plate of dogma on 
down to us amateur scientists.

But to all the amateur scientists here take hope, scientific dogma will not 
rule much longer.  Top real scientists have discovered our science is not 
correct.  As I have stated here time and time again that no one has even 
begun to reply to; "Scientists are going to have to give up their most 
precious beliefs", as Dr. Vera Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS Transcript I 
have posted at my website.  And it took her 30 years of work to gather the 
data and have it reviewed and be approved to say it.  Yet it has been known 
for a long time.  Everything we know of as science based on curved space is 
being dismantled.  It may be within our lifetimes that we will start to have 
some understanding of the basics.  Right now, it is bogus, but defended at 
all costs by the high and mighty.  Just like in Galileo's day, better 
telescope vision will stop he false dogma eventually.  But they will try as 
long as possible to sell those books and get to that next fancy siminar and 
look like a big shot.

The Emperor Wears No Clothes.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Does Capillary Action Yield Free Energy?
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:47:05 -0500
>
> >Nice debate. Wonderful how we can think of a device/system, design it,
> >build it and then trash it, all on a computer without any physical
> >objects being experimented with. Techno science at it's best.
> >MJ
>
>***{Absolutely correct. Doing actual experiments, or building prototypes,
>can cost untold hours and millions of dollars. But with a group like this,
>you can frequently save your money: just toss out your idea, and wait for
>someone to shoot it down!
>
>Such benefits, of course, are only available to that segment of the
>population which is able to overcome silly fears of loss of face, and
>simply put forth their opinions and ideas in front of critics. At the
>present time, few have the courage to do that, and, as a result, only a
>tiny minority are experiencing the rapid improvements in knowledge and
>productivity which that type of interaction makes possible. However, the
>long-term implications for the broader population are very positive: such
>behavior cannot help but spread, as more and more people, by observation,
>begin to comprehend the profound synergism between the following
>statements: "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never
>hurt you;" and "That which does not kill you makes you stronger."
>
>Oddly, a major obstacle in the path to such benefits is the managements of
>the companies who would gain the most: typical companies grant web access
>to their white collar employees, but block usenet and list groups on the
>grounds that such activities are analogous to game playing, and are thus a
>waste of time. That doesn't mean they prefer that their engineers,
>scientists, and other technical personnel be forced to constantly re-invent
>the wheel, of course. The cause of such attitudes is ignorance, plain and
>simple. Most managers simply do not see the productivity related benefits
>of discussion groups.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 02:31:25 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Common Sense
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 02:30:47 PDT
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It's just common sense.

If I were a "real" scientist and found out there was a known event in nature 
that had no data, no tests, was unrecognised by science; and had access to 
or the means to or that abilty to get the first data on a whirlpool ever by 
man in all recorded history, I would do it in a heartbeat, even if I did not 
think Whirlpower Theory by and unknown amateur scientist was valid or not.

If I had a question as to what a whirlpool is I'd find out.

Many "real" scientist throughout the century and even in present times still 
try to tap the tornado type vortex.  The data makes it look possible.  The 
vortex was touted back in the thirties as THE energy of the future, by 
"real" scientists.

Yet no recognition or understadning, or tests, or data, on a whirlpool.

You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.

Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 05:18:43 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

Everybody succumbs to fallacies now and then.

Hi Mitchell,

You are so right.  In fact, the old line "Vanity, vanity,
all is vanity" should be rephrased "Fallacy, fallacy,
all is fallacy."  And "One man's fallacy is another man's truth."

But this should not bother us.  As long as a fallacy produces
some design equations which promote our survival and 
comfort, the fallacy is useful.  However, we should always
be on the lookout for another fallacy which works even better.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 06:31:29 2000
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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 05:34:09 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrostatic gradient distiller?
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In the past I have suggested, in response to a request for ideas from John
Schnurer for water purifiers, the value of feeding back the excess power
from a steam driven cogeneration system to resistors in the evaporator, in
order to maximize evaporation rate.  Resistors transfer 100 percent of
their supplied energy in the form of heat directly to the evaporator.  This
was higly criticised here by some, e.g. Ross Tessian,  as an overunity
scheme, and not useful to cogeneration-distillation.  The reason it was
seen as such is that it is possible to extract energy from water vapor
during condensation (via a steam engine) to help drive the generator which
then generates more steam, thus creating a feedback cycle.  I saw it
principly as a means to improve the distillation productivity of the
cogenerator, by the (cheap) addition of some resistors, in order to improve
distillation rate, due to the low efficiency of steam engines.

However, if electrostatic gradient enhanced evaporation/condensation can be
near to or over unity, then a combined cogeneration approach would be even
further enhanced by directing some of the energy from the generator to a
high voltage circuit to power an electrostatically driven
evaporation/condensation cycle, while dumping the excess heat from the
circuit to the evaporator.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 07:30:07 2000
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From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> It's just common sense.
> 
> If I were a "real" scientist and found out there was a known event in nature
> that had no data, no tests, was unrecognised by science; and had access to
> or the means to or that abilty to get the first data on a whirlpool ever by
> man in all recorded history, I would do it in a heartbeat, even if I did not
> think Whirlpower Theory by and unknown amateur scientist was valid or not.
> 
> If I had a question as to what a whirlpool is I'd find out.
> 
> Many "real" scientist throughout the century and even in present times still
> try to tap the tornado type vortex.  The data makes it look possible.  The
> vortex was touted back in the thirties as THE energy of the future, by
> "real" scientists.
> 
> Yet no recognition or understadning, or tests, or data, on a whirlpool.
> 
> You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
> 
> Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.


---

David, I can't speak for any other real scientists, but my life is
filled with pursuits which I consider interesting and rewarding and
which I believe will be fruitful in one way or another.  For me, what
you call "whirlpower" fits in none of those categories, so I choose
pretty much to let it be, as does nearly everyone else, it seems.  

If you wanted someone to hitch their wagon to your star it would behoove
you to prepare some technical data which would at least begin to
substantiate your opinions about whirlpools.  You have a computer and
access to, at least, BASIC I'm sure.  Knowing what you already know
about whirlpools and other similar swirling structures, perhaps you
could build a mathematical model/simulator and use that to gain further
insight into those phenomena.  That would allow you to further refine
your model which would, perhaps, allow you to gain further insight, and
so on...

So far it seems, sadly, you're on a dead-end road which you are paving
yourself. 

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 10:30:12 2000
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On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> Here is a new approach to achieving condensation.
> 
> Bipolar molecules like water should be attracted by high voltage gradients.
> Water molecues in a 100 percent water atmosphere in a vacuum chamber
> should be attracted to high gradient structures, like charged thin wires or
> a charged small conductive ball inside a conductive sphere, where they
> would tend to condense.

This was mentioned in the ESA (Electrostatic Soc. of Am.) newsletter last
year.  Somebody discovered that thin wires at high voltage would collect
water.  It was just a brief note, but it sounded like an empirical
discovery, and no theory was even mentioned.

One possible problem: if there is a corona, then the water will be full of
nitrogen oxides, or ozone at the very least.

Using tiny structures is a good idea.  The same effect would occur with
lower power supply voltage.


DC would be preferable, since it takes lots less energy if you don't have
to oscillate the polarity (I'm thinking solar panels here.)




((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 10:40:53 2000
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Hi Mitchell,
   If I misunderstood the intent behind your choice of the particular
words that you used in your critique then I apologize for that. I am
sure that your mother probably didn't drop you on your head. You can't
take that too seriously, I don't, just having some fun ;-) At any rate,
that aside I will try to answer you in a rational manner below;

 
> ***{Nobody said you should be ashamed. Everybody succumbs to fallacies now
> and then. It isn't a dirty word. You need to relax. --MJ}***

 
> ***{I never said that, never implied it, and never thought it. You should
> leave the mind reading to the lady with the crystal ball. --MJ}***

MJ likes Gypsies! But ok, so you didn't mean that it couldn't be done,
fine.
> 
> 
> ***{No jab, just fact. It isn't an insult. Physics is complicated, and we
> all see parts of it wrong now and then. If you read this group long enough,
> you will probably see it happen to me. --MJ}***

Ok, ok, we all make mistakes, but I haven't yet in respect to this.
> 
> >
 
> ***{I was talking about the diagram that you drew. --MJ}***

Now here is where we start to diverge.
> 
> >
 
> ***{You are missing the point. You drew a little tube sticking out of the
> side of an inverted container that was holding a column of water above the
> level in the pan in which it was immersed, and you showed a stream of water
> squirting out of that tube, falling down to a water wheel, and presumably
> turning it. My point was that the tube would not squirt water out; it would
> suck air in. 

Hmmmm, I just looked at the drawing to which you refer (Free Energy,
Part one, page one, picture 2) and I very plainly see that I did include
a small pump in that diagram between where the water tube comes out of
the inverted container and where it spills onto the water wheel. The
pump keeps the water flowing OUT of the inverted container (the pump is
that little ball kinda thing in the middle of the tube)and prevents air
from being sucked back IN. I didn't bother to label each piece in the
diagram because I thought I described it clearly enough in the
accompanying text.

Result: instead of turning the water wheel, the level of water
> in the inside of the inverted vessel would fall, the pan would overflow,
> and you would have a big mess. What you would *not* have, however, would be
> free energy. --MJ}***


You are absolutely right, IF I hadn't included the pump, which I DID so
you are wrong. But even with one pump and one wheel, as in that picture
I never said it was free energy, it probably wouldn't be, too many
losses, that was just an illustration to show how the final idea evolved
from simpler beginnings. The trick is to get more energy being produced
by that same stream of water, which is what I went on to show in later
installments.
> 
> >
> >
> >>

> ***{Actually, I would say that you don't understand what I wrote. Given the
> various indications of emotionality in your response, 

I'm just an emotional wreck aren't I? Sigh.....

>I don't find that
> surprising. Suggestion: calm yourself, and then go back and re-read your
> post (the one to which I was responding), and then re-read my post again
> and think about it very carefully. 

Ok, I've taken a Valium now and feel much better, thank you. I have
re-read your response now and as I said, you were right IF I had
designed it the way you saw it but WRONG because I did NOT draw it the
way you saw it. Fair enough?

>You need to do that because the types of
> designs you are interested in are classical perpetual motion schemes. 

There's that "scheme" word again. MJ, with a heroic show of internal
control, does not throw out any "comebacks" but instead decides to point
out that, in his opinion, this is not a perpetual motion
"scheme/brilliant plan" but instead, as pictured, simply a novel way to
circulate water. It does require energy input and will not work without
it. Whether or not it can be modified to PRODUCE energy is actually
secondary to the basic function of the device. It is a simple, cheap to
build, PUMP. That's it. If someone's imagination gets stimulated enough
to try to make something else out of it, fine.


>Vast
> numbers of them have been built and tested, going back to the time of
> Newton and beyond. 

Unfortunately I hadn't been born then. (Ooops, there I go again!)

>None of them worked, because they violate basic laws of
> physics. 

Neither my little picture, nor the working physical model of this device
that I built (the later model with multiple chambers)and have here at
home, do NOT violate any laws of physics that I can find. As far as I'm
concerned you haven't even mentioned the best ones. Take a look at
Pascal's law of pressure in confined liquids and then consider the
reverse of it (reduction of pressure in confined liquids). But you lnow
what? Since I did build one and it DOES work then you must be saying
that physics is wrong (I'm not).

>I wasn't trying to insult you when I pointed that out. 

I wasn't really insulted. Just slightly annoyed that someone could
endeavor to make such a sweeping and final judgment on a device which
they obviously didn't even look at long enough to see how it was
actually designed! That was what I meant by preconceived ideas being a
real obstacle to progress.
Mj

>I was
> trying to save you *a lot* of time and effort. If I seemed sure of myself
> on this particular point, it is because I was, and am. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 10:59:54 2000
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On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:30:47AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that space is 'flat'.
You can't mean what I think that you mean, i.e. that it's two
dimensional!  Space is obviously curved.

> Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.

Go on then.
Joe
-- 
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Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 11:48:45 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrostatic gradient distiller?
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At 10:28 AM 8/27/0, William Beaty wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> Here is a new approach to achieving condensation.
>>
>> Bipolar molecules like water should be attracted by high voltage gradients.
>> Water molecues in a 100 percent water atmosphere in a vacuum chamber
>> should be attracted to high gradient structures, like charged thin wires or
>> a charged small conductive ball inside a conductive sphere, where they
>> would tend to condense.
>
>This was mentioned in the ESA (Electrostatic Soc. of Am.) newsletter last
>year.  Somebody discovered that thin wires at high voltage would collect
>water.  It was just a brief note, but it sounded like an empirical
>discovery, and no theory was even mentioned.


Interesting.  I have noted that the dust collected on precipitator wires
tends to be dense and moist.  Unfortunately they don't drip away like
crazy, so there must be something that evaporates the water pretty fast
too.   Perhaps the fine tips of capillary tubes would be a good place to
collect water.  The problem is to get a one way "diode" for the water
molecues, because if you have that then you have a "Maxwell's demon."  To
some extent, the gradient about a fine wire provides that I think. If the
fine wire were a capillary with holes in the surface, then it could
possibly preferentialy absorb the water from the gas phase into liquid
phase.


>
>One possible problem: if there is a corona, then the water will be full of
>nitrogen oxides, or ozone at the very least.


I was thinking along the lines of an air free system, but there is always
some air in the water.  Ozone might be a plus for purification.  If salt
water is being distilled there is also the possible problem of chlorination
if the evaporation pool is subject to the electrostatic field.  Carbonation
might also result to some degree due to CO2 being a dipole.

It is interesting that neither nitrogen nor oxygen is an electrostatic
dipole, so an electrostatic device might be used to enrich CO2 and H2O
concentrations from air, which might be of use for a greenhouse.  Air would
be blown lengthwise down the wires and collected by tubes at the end of
each wire.


>
>Using tiny structures is a good idea.  The same effect would occur with
>lower power supply voltage.


Yes, I think so.  Unfortunately wicks don't provide the necessary tiny
structures, because the electrostatic field becomes very uniform about lots
of close together point like sources.  It would probably be necessary to
intersperse insulated wires in between bare thin wires.  Perhaps this could
be done with the wire sets being perpendicular, so as to make a mesh of
alternating layers of insulated wires crossing over non-insulated wires, or
a woven mesh.  Perhaps such a mesh could be cylidrical and spun so as to
push water wapor through it and to aid ejection of condensed water.


>
>
>DC would be preferable, since it takes lots less energy if you don't have
>to oscillate the polarity (I'm thinking solar panels here.)


Yes.  The problem is that if there is any current leakage the field
gradient is quickly transfered to the inside of the insulating material due
to charges migrating to the surface of the insulating material, so the
polarity has to be reversed periodically to avoid this, or perhaps the
insulating material could be made sufficiently conductive that the charge
is dissipated by a DC current.

I think it is interesting that the heat generated should be useable,
however.  If the condensing unit makes heat, then you can surround it with
the evaporation tank and collect all that excess heat for evaporation,
making for a very efficient evaporator.  The probelm then becomes one of
getting condensation at a higher temperature than that in the evaporator.
It's not only hard to get something for nothing, it is also hard to even be
really efficient, but I think the goal of efficiently and cheaply
distilling sea water is a worthy one.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 12:11:56 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Heat Recovery Sea Water Distillation Units 
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:08:07 -0700
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Try this, Horace. 120 Btu/lb of water distilled ain't too bad.

 http://www.beairdindustries.com/msfevap.htm

With a vapor compression unit and "Heat Looping" using
a refrigeration compressor (the condenser side evaporates the water
and the evaporator side condenses it) you can get as low as heat
transfer losses allow, i.e., as low as 30 to 50 Btu/pound.

I built one of these for ethanol distillation in 1979 using an old freezer  chest,but
was beat out at the patent office by units used for desalinization on oil rig platforms. 

Regards, Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 12:44:16 2000
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Hi,

A few years ago, a Mr. Clark in Phoenix patented several heat engines
that
got me thinking. I don't remember all the details, but one was based
on the fact that water achieves its maximum density at 4 oC, therefore,
a 
convection engine could be built where water at 4 oC would sink to the
bottom
of a column, driving a turbine, and then either heated OR cooled from
there,
would rise back up to the top of the loop.  The thermodynamic analysis
was
beyond my experience or what time I wanted to put into it, but it
sounded
bizarre enough for further analysis.  

Best Regards,
Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix
-- 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 13:17:52 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Free Energy 1 (reprise to criticism #1)
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:16:12 PDT
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Mike Johnston writes!!!

>I wasn't really insulted. Just slightly annoyed that someone could
endeavor to make such a sweeping and final judgment on a device which
they obviously didn't even look at long enough to see how it was
actually designed! That was what I meant by preconceived ideas being a real 
obstacle to progress.


Go Mike,
That's saying it straight!!

That's almost all this list tries to do.  It seems to have nothing to do 
with what the list description says, no support or interest in folks 
building new energy machines, just put downs and personal attacks.  A few 
old timers that have already had their stuff tested with no result.  Yet 
keep hanging on putting others down or just trying to look like a know it 
all big shots.

David


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 13:25:55 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:24:18 PDT
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I guess you didn't get it that the BBC is featuring my work in an upcoming 
series on amateur scientists.  You should see the support growing on my list 
by Drs. of Science.  Whirlpower Lectures have now been given in both France 
and Germany, by real PhDs, on the Whirlpower Team.  We are getting real 
close to getting out next whirlpool up and running.

But no, I don't have a computer, just get to come over her and use this one 
to email and search.  I do hope to get one soon and learn more.  But a 
mathmatical model of something that has no data would be sheer guesswork.

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>CC: Antigravity egroups.com
>Subject: Re: Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:24:18 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > It's just common sense.
> >
> > If I were a "real" scientist and found out there was a known event in 
>nature
> > that had no data, no tests, was unrecognised by science; and had access 
>to
> > or the means to or that abilty to get the first data on a whirlpool ever 
>by
> > man in all recorded history, I would do it in a heartbeat, even if I did 
>not
> > think Whirlpower Theory by and unknown amateur scientist was valid or 
>not.
> >
> > If I had a question as to what a whirlpool is I'd find out.
> >
> > Many "real" scientist throughout the century and even in present times 
>still
> > try to tap the tornado type vortex.  The data makes it look possible.  
>The
> > vortex was touted back in the thirties as THE energy of the future, by
> > "real" scientists.
> >
> > Yet no recognition or understadning, or tests, or data, on a whirlpool.
> >
> > You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
> >
> > Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.
>
>
>---
>
>David, I can't speak for any other real scientists, but my life is
>filled with pursuits which I consider interesting and rewarding and
>which I believe will be fruitful in one way or another.  For me, what
>you call "whirlpower" fits in none of those categories, so I choose
>pretty much to let it be, as does nearly everyone else, it seems.
>
>If you wanted someone to hitch their wagon to your star it would behoove
>you to prepare some technical data which would at least begin to
>substantiate your opinions about whirlpools.  You have a computer and
>access to, at least, BASIC I'm sure.  Knowing what you already know
>about whirlpools and other similar swirling structures, perhaps you
>could build a mathematical model/simulator and use that to gain further
>insight into those phenomena.  That would allow you to further refine
>your model which would, perhaps, allow you to gain further insight, and
>so on...
>
>So far it seems, sadly, you're on a dead-end road which you are paving
>yourself.
>
>---
>
>John Fields
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 13:37:14 2000
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Josef,

If you have not heard yet they proved space is flat than I doubt I can 
describe exactly what it means except that space is not curved.  Motion is 
not directed along a curved frictionless void as was theorized before.  All 
science based on curved space is being properly dismantled and disposed of.

When Dr. Vera Rubin stated on ABC NEWS, "Mapping the Cosmos" that, 
"scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" she 
was not kidding or just flapping her jaws.

When Dr. Stephen Hawking stated in Discover Magazine, "cosmology is not 
science if it cannot predict the data", and, "there are too many theories" 
he was not flapping either.

As Dr. Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS Science Special, (transcript posted 
at my website), what the new data shows from the Hubble is not in anyone's 
theory.  None of what we think we know is real science.

David Dennard
The Paradigm Shift
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>CC: Antigravity egroups.com
>Subject: Re: Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:58:26 +0100
>
>On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:30:47AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
>
>I don't understand what you mean when you say that space is 'flat'.
>You can't mean what I think that you mean, i.e. that it's two
>dimensional!  Space is obviously curved.
>
> > Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.
>
>Go on then.
>Joe
>--
>Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
>Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
>Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
>joe tao.org.uk]
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 13:38:13 2000
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In a message dated 08/25/2000 2:17:22 PM, George Holz wrote:

<< The processes would not be unrelated! Hydrinos can result in nuclear 
processes.

The hydrinos cannot easily cause a nuclear process in the H but they are

capable of causing such reactions in the various cathodes you mention. >>

It bears repeating that what Mills and BLP are doing isn't cold fusion, 
because they use ordinary light hydrogen as the fuel; and with ordinary H 
there are neither nuclear reactions nor nuclear products.

McKubre's experiments are cold fusion, because he's using D rather than H 
(deuterium rather than ordinary light hydrogen), in a wet electrolytic cell 
with Arata's special palladium cathode.  But perhaps that is what George was 
implying when he referred to <<the various cathodes you mention.>>

Tom Stolper

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Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Tstolper aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Please describe recent BLP energy devices

Tom Stolper wrote:


> 
> In a message dated 08/25/2000 2:17:22 PM, George Holz wrote:
> 
> << The processes would not be unrelated! Hydrinos can result in nuclear 
> processes.
> 
> The hydrinos cannot easily cause a nuclear process in the H but they are
> 
> capable of causing such reactions in the various cathodes you mention. >>
> 
> It bears repeating that what Mills and BLP are doing isn't cold fusion, 
> because they use ordinary light hydrogen as the fuel; and with ordinary H 
> there are neither nuclear reactions nor nuclear products.

That is your assumption, Tom.   I think Mills or Thermacore are smart enough
not to mention cold fusion.

A Neutral "Hydrino" (P*) can pull off the (P*)-Electron-Proton (PEP) reaction
(common reaction on the Sun) and make Deuterium and release about 2.5 Mev and a neutrino.

Or the (P*) can react with Nickel:

(P*) + 28Ni ---->  29Cu + Electron + ~ 7.0 Mev

> 
> McKubre's experiments are cold fusion, because he's using D rather than H 
> (deuterium rather than ordinary light hydrogen), in a wet electrolytic cell 
> with Arata's special palladium cathode.  But perhaps that is what George was 
> implying when he referred to <<the various cathodes you mention.>>

See Miley's work.

I think someone is sandbagging to keep the USPTO happy.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick
> 
> Tom Stolper
> 
> 

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Subject: Mechanical Vapor Compression Distillation
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Mechanical Vapor Compression Distillation
      Plant Specification (100 m3/day)=20
    =20
      Norminal Plant Capacity m3/day=20
     100=20
    =20
      Water Characteristics   =20
      Feed Water   =20
      Flowrate  m3/day=20
     125 =96 200=20
    =20
      Temperature   Ambient=20
    =20
      Pressure  bar=20
     3.0=20
    =20
      Product Water   =20
      TDS  ppm=20
     5 =96 25=20
    =20
      Recovery Rate  %=20
     50 (Seawater) =96 80 (Brackish)=20
    =20
      pH   ~7.0=20
    =20
      Temperature  oC=20
     Ambient + 10=20
    =20
      Pressure  bar=20
     2.0=20
    =20
      Brine Discharge   =20
      TDS  ppm=20
     2 =96 5 times of Feed Water=20
    =20
      pH   5.0 =96 7.0=20
    =20
      Temperature  oC=20
     Ambient + 6.5=20
    =20
      Pressure  bar=20
     1.4=20
    =20
      =20
      Power Consumption   =20
      Pumps & Compressor  kWh=20
     50 =96 63=20
    =20
      Rate of Energy Consumption  kWh/m3=20
     12 =96 15=20
    =20
      Operating Conditions   =20
      Evaporator Pressure  bar a=20
     1.1=20
    =20
      Pressure Differential  bar=20
     0.34=20
    =20
      Compressor Speed  rpm=20
     2,570=20
    =20
      Electrical Requirements   =20
      Frequency   50=20
    =20
      Phase   3=20
    =20
      Voltage   415/380=20
    =20
      Ampere   100 =96 120=20
    =20
      Size & Weight   =20
      Weights  ton=20
     8.0 (Dry), 8.5 (Op), 11.0 (Hydrostatic)=20
    =20
      Dimensions  m=20
     5.5 L x 2.3 W x 2.7 H=20
    =20



      =20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Mechanical Vapor Compression Distillation</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.aqnint.com/SPEC_MVC.htm>
<STYLE type=3Dtext/css>A {
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff link=3D#0000ff onload=3D"" vLink=3D#800080>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D1 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D607>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD colSpan=3D5 vAlign=3Dtop>
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"><B><FONT=20
      color=3D#008000>Plant Specification (100 m<FONT=20
      size=3D2>3</FONT>/day)</FONT></B></FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD height=3D8 vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>Norminal=20
      Plant Capacity</FONT></B></FONT></TD>
    <TD height=3D8 vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>m<SUP>3</SUP>/day</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD height=3D8 vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2><B>100</B></FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>Water=20
      Characteristics</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2>Feed=20
      Water</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
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      size=3D2>Flowrate</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>m<SUP>3</SUP>/day</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>125 =96=20
      200</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Temperature</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Ambient</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Pressure</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>bar</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>3.0</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2>Product=20
      Water</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>TDS</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>ppm</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>5 =96=20
      25</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Recovery Rate</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>%</FONT>=20
      </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>50=20
      (Seawater) =96 80 (Brackish)</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>pH</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>~7.0</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Temperature</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2><SUP>o</SUP>C</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>Ambient +=20
      10</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Pressure</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>bar</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>2.0</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2>Brine=20
      Discharge</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>TDS</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>ppm</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>2 =96 5=20
      times of Feed Water</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>pH</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>5.0 =96=20
      7.0</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Temperature</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2><SUP>o</SUP>C</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>Ambient +=20
      6.5</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Pressure</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>bar</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>1.4</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2>Power=20
      Consumption</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Pumps &amp; Compressor</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>kWh</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>50 =96=20
      63</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Rate of Energy Consumption</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>kWh/m<SUP>3</SUP></FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>12 =96=20
      15</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><B><FONT color=3D#000080=20
      size=3D2>Operating Conditions</FONT></B> </FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Evaporator Pressure</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>bar<FONT=20
      size=3D1> a</FONT></FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>1.1</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Pressure Differential</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>bar</FONT> </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>0.34</FONT> </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
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sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
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  <TR>
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
      size=3D2>Frequency</FONT> </TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>50</FONT>=20
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  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>3</FONT>=20
      </P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
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  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%"><FONT=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>100 =96=20
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  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT=20
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size=3D2>Size=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%"><FONT=20
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  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>8.0=20
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  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif"=20
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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"16%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
size=3D2>m</FONT>=20
      </P></TD>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"51%">
      <P align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" =
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 14:47:22 2000
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Message-ID: <39A98B63.CDF4D277 austininstruments.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:42:59 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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Subject: Re: Common Sense
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> I guess you didn't get it that the BBC is featuring my work in an upcoming
> series on amateur scientists.  You should see the support growing on my list
> by Drs. of Science.  Whirlpower Lectures have now been given in both France
> and Germany, by real PhDs, on the Whirlpower Team.  We are getting real
> close to getting out next whirlpool up and running.
> 
> But no, I don't have a computer, just get to come over her and use this one
> to email and search.  I do hope to get one soon and learn more.  But a
> mathmatical model of something that has no data would be sheer guesswork.

---

Guesswork?

You know (or can find out about) gravity, the mechanical, acoustical,
thermal and electrical characteristics of water, the rotational velocity
of the earth, the effects of the tides, and on and on.  There's plenty
of data out there, the work is to for you to find it and use it to prove
or disprove your theory.  By using a model you can use the data to try
out any number of scenarios and determine whether conclusions you have
come to are valid.  

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't have access
to a computer which you can use to do research yet you have access to a
computer which you can use to access data on the internet, set up a
website, do email, etc.

I'm sure there are schools in your community which would gladly allow
you to use their computers if you asked. 

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 14:56:04 2000
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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:52:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
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--============_-1244709221==_============
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>Hi Mitchell,
>   If I misunderstood the intent behind your choice of the particular
>words that you used in your critique then I apologize for that. I am
>sure that your mother probably didn't drop you on your head. You can't
>take that too seriously, I don't, just having some fun ;-) At any rate,
>that aside I will try to answer you in a rational manner below;
>
>
>> ***{Nobody said you should be ashamed. Everybody succumbs to fallacies now
>> and then. It isn't a dirty word. You need to relax. --MJ}***
>
>
>> ***{I never said that, never implied it, and never thought it. You should
>> leave the mind reading to the lady with the crystal ball. --MJ}***
>
>MJ likes Gypsies! But ok, so you didn't mean that it couldn't be done,
>fine.
>>
>>
>> ***{No jab, just fact. It isn't an insult. Physics is complicated, and we
>> all see parts of it wrong now and then. If you read this group long enough,
>> you will probably see it happen to me. --MJ}***
>
>Ok, ok, we all make mistakes, but I haven't yet in respect to this.
>>
>> >
>
>> ***{I was talking about the diagram that you drew. --MJ}***
>
>Now here is where we start to diverge.
>>
>> >
>
>> ***{You are missing the point. You drew a little tube sticking out of the
>> side of an inverted container that was holding a column of water above the
>> level in the pan in which it was immersed, and you showed a stream of water
>> squirting out of that tube, falling down to a water wheel, and presumably
>> turning it. My point was that the tube would not squirt water out; it would
>> suck air in.
>
>Hmmmm, I just looked at the drawing to which you refer (Free Energy,
>Part one, page one, picture 2) and I very plainly see that I did include
>a small pump in that diagram between where the water tube comes out of
>the inverted container and where it spills onto the water wheel. The
>pump keeps the water flowing OUT of the inverted container (the pump is
>that little ball kinda thing in the middle of the tube)and prevents air
>from being sucked back IN. I didn't bother to label each piece in the
>diagram because I thought I described it clearly enough in the
>accompanying text.
>
>Result: instead of turning the water wheel, the level of water
>> in the inside of the inverted vessel would fall, the pan would overflow,
>> and you would have a big mess. What you would *not* have, however, would be
>> free energy. --MJ}***
>
>
>You are absolutely right, IF I hadn't included the pump, which I DID so
>you are wrong.

***{So you are saying that the little bulge near the end of the tube in
that early diagram is supposed to be a pump? Not clear, in my opinion, but
that's fine. It still doesn't alter the point: the pressure inside each of
the reservoirs that you drew in your supposedly OU diagram (see attachment)
declines further and further below atmospheric as you move from left to
right toward the pump inlet, with the size of the decrease at each stage
being determined by subtracting the head pressure of the column of water
lifted up into that stage. Result:

(1) The more stages you have, the more columns of water that must be
lifted, and the more work your pump must do.

(2) When the sum of the heads of the various columns of water are added
together, it cannot exceed about 35 feet.

To sum up, the pump must supply all of the energy necessary to lift the
water above the various water wheels, plus some energy to overcome its own
internal friction. Each water wheel, due to internal frictional losses,
will each recover less energy than was required to pump the water above it.
Result: the total energy recovered by the water wheels will be less than
the energy consumed by the pump, and the device will *not* be over unity.

 --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]
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&R`!-!!N!&!!"!!`!!!!!!!!!!! J!!`!#3!8!!%!$!!!!!!!!!!!"D8!$!!*!"3
!!3!-!!!!!!!!!!!(D3!-!!N!&!!"!!`!!!!!!!!!!!"!!!!!!3!!!!3!!!!!!!!
!!e4& &3!!!%!!!!!!!!!!!"3F'&b!!!"!!!!!!!!!!!!Fh4jE!!!!3!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!3!!!!PN!!!)C!!!!'i([+h-11`!!!!F!'i!!e4& &3!!!!L8("KFJ!!!#j
cG(PX!!!!1Q4bB F!!!"'!3$rr`!!!!!!GaM-!3$rr`!!"fi!GaPm!3$rr`!!"ii
!"UC)!)$rr`!!##!!"UBN$M)!:
--============_-1244709221==_============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 15:23:34 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:40 PDT
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John, I appreciate your change in tone and offering suggestions that could 
help.  What a difference a day makes.

But really it is only about clout.  I've see the tone change on many lists 
now that the BBC is going to feature my work.  And that is what is wrong 
with science, it is all about clout, money, degrees, not facts.

Facts are, the known science is bogus.

It's a band new ball game.

My access is limited on this computer, just lucky to get to do what I can 
do.  I don't have a car and I can't drive anyway and am staying out in the 
country with no way to go the thirty miles to any place you mention.  My 
website was set up for me by a friend which you would know if you actually 
read the Whirlpower Declaration.  I have no idea how this stuff works.

I am on this list because it is about what I am doing.  Although I have 
gotten very little support, I have gotten some and I hope to get more.  The 
only way I can approach getting my message across and getting help is to 
keep trying and ask.

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:42:59 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > I guess you didn't get it that the BBC is featuring my work in an 
>upcoming
> > series on amateur scientists.  You should see the support growing on my 
>list
> > by Drs. of Science.  Whirlpower Lectures have now been given in both 
>France
> > and Germany, by real PhDs, on the Whirlpower Team.  We are getting real
> > close to getting out next whirlpool up and running.
> >
> > But no, I don't have a computer, just get to come over her and use this 
>one
> > to email and search.  I do hope to get one soon and learn more.  But a
> > mathmatical model of something that has no data would be sheer 
>guesswork.
>
>---
>
>Guesswork?
>
>You know (or can find out about) gravity, the mechanical, acoustical,
>thermal and electrical characteristics of water, the rotational velocity
>of the earth, the effects of the tides, and on and on.  There's plenty
>of data out there, the work is to for you to find it and use it to prove
>or disprove your theory.  By using a model you can use the data to try
>out any number of scenarios and determine whether conclusions you have
>come to are valid.
>
>I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't have access
>to a computer which you can use to do research yet you have access to a
>computer which you can use to access data on the internet, set up a
>website, do email, etc.
>
>I'm sure there are schools in your community which would gladly allow
>you to use their computers if you asked.
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 15:39:05 2000
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 <v04011702b5ce61feb08c [207.8.127.94]>
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:35:25 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Free Energy 1 (reprise to criticism #1)
Resent-Message-ID: <"qPlgC3.0.CK5.rWPgv" mx1>
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I notice that the attachment I tried to send with my last message didn't
go. I tried to send it again, but it still didn't go. Until I can figure
out what is wrong, I guess those who are interested in this will have to
either pull up the original, or, if you didn't save it, go by memory.
Sorry. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 15:42:18 2000
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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:40:22 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
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On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 01:35:56PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> Josef,
> 
> If you have not heard yet they proved space is flat than I doubt I can 
> describe exactly what it means except that space is not curved.  Motion is 
> not directed along a curved frictionless void as was theorized before.  All 
> science based on curved space is being properly dismantled and disposed of.

Excuse me David.  Either you know what you're talking about - in which
case please explain it to me.  Or... you don't in which case please don't
even talk about it - there's enough noise here without adding to it.


Who's they?  What did they prove?  What do you mean by flat!  Do we live
in a two dimensional universe?

Thankyou.

Joe


p.s. the rest of this isn't relevant to my questioning...

> When Dr. Vera Rubin stated on ABC NEWS, "Mapping the Cosmos" that, 
> "scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" she 
> was not kidding or just flapping her jaws.
> 
> When Dr. Stephen Hawking stated in Discover Magazine, "cosmology is not 
> science if it cannot predict the data", and, "there are too many theories" 
> he was not flapping either.
> 
> As Dr. Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS Science Special, (transcript posted 
> at my website), what the new data shows from the Hubble is not in anyone's 
> theory.  None of what we think we know is real science.
> 
> David Dennard
> The Paradigm Shift
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
> 
> 
> >From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >CC: Antigravity egroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Common Sense
> >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:58:26 +0100
> >
> >On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:30:47AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > > You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
> >
> >I don't understand what you mean when you say that space is 'flat'.
> >You can't mean what I think that you mean, i.e. that it's two
> >dimensional!  Space is obviously curved.
> >
> > > Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.
> >
> >Go on then.
> >Joe
> >--
> >Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
> >Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
> >Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
> >joe tao.org.uk]
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 
> 

-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 16:16:16 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Ions and Money
Resent-Message-ID: <"_1FKJ3.0.Ja7.m3Qgv" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Gnorts,

Thought some of you might be interested in this.

http://www.ironminds.com/ironminds/issues/000825/money.shtml

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 16:18:49 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:17:14 PDT
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Flat space means not curved.  Look up Boomerang and The Comsmic Triangle in 
the Archive.  No noise at all.

The relevance is science as we know it is bogus.

Are you another kicking ad screaming scientist?  Dr. Vera Rubin has also 
stated "scientists will go kicking and screaming into the next century".  
Stated a few years ago.

The relevance is, know it all scientic dogma is out, new ways of looking at 
things in in.


>From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:40:22 +0100
>
>On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 01:35:56PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > Josef,
> >
> > If you have not heard yet they proved space is flat than I doubt I can
> > describe exactly what it means except that space is not curved.  Motion 
>is
> > not directed along a curved frictionless void as was theorized before.  
>All
> > science based on curved space is being properly dismantled and disposed 
>of.
>
>Excuse me David.  Either you know what you're talking about - in which
>case please explain it to me.  Or... you don't in which case please don't
>even talk about it - there's enough noise here without adding to it.
>
>
>Who's they?  What did they prove?  What do you mean by flat!  Do we live
>in a two dimensional universe?
>
>Thankyou.
>
>Joe
>
>
>p.s. the rest of this isn't relevant to my questioning...
>
> > When Dr. Vera Rubin stated on ABC NEWS, "Mapping the Cosmos" that,
> > "scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs" 
>she
> > was not kidding or just flapping her jaws.
> >
> > When Dr. Stephen Hawking stated in Discover Magazine, "cosmology is not
> > science if it cannot predict the data", and, "there are too many 
>theories"
> > he was not flapping either.
> >
> > As Dr. Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS Science Special, (transcript 
>posted
> > at my website), what the new data shows from the Hubble is not in 
>anyone's
> > theory.  None of what we think we know is real science.
> >
> > David Dennard
> > The Paradigm Shift
> > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> >
> >
> > >From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >CC: Antigravity egroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Common Sense
> > >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:58:26 +0100
> > >
> > >On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:30:47AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > > > You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
> > >
> > >I don't understand what you mean when you say that space is 'flat'.
> > >You can't mean what I think that you mean, i.e. that it's two
> > >dimensional!  Space is obviously curved.
> > >
> > > > Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.
> > >
> > >Go on then.
> > >Joe
> > >--
> > >Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
> > >Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
> > >Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org,
> > >joe tao.org.uk]
> > >
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
> >
>
>--
>Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
>Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
>Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
>joe tao.org.uk]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 16:41:34 2000
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Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:39:23 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Ions and Money
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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Knuke -

I thought I would be, but on his web site of charts showing stock 
prices versus ion concentrations, I don't see any obvious correlation 
at all - it's like two random charts overlaid together. Occasionally 
one does seem to track the other, but if you look at a bunch of them, 
they apprear more frequently to be rather divergent. All in all, it 
looks like an apparent random connection - i.e., none.

Maybe I should start up the capacitor self charging experiments and 
try those against stock prices. Wow - 20 mV per hour?! Buy! buy! 
buy!<g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>Gnorts,
>
>Thought some of you might be interested in this.
>
>http://www.ironminds.com/ironminds/issues/000825/money.shtml
>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 17:40:15 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Ions and Money
Resent-Message-ID: <"VjD4o2.0.E75.FGRgv" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
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>Knuke -
>
>I thought I would be, but on his web site of charts showing stock 
>prices versus ion concentrations, I don't see any obvious correlation 
>at all - it's like two random charts overlaid together. Occasionally 
>one does seem to track the other, but if you look at a bunch of them, 
>they apprear more frequently to be rather divergent. All in all, it 
>looks like an apparent random connection - i.e., none.
>
>Maybe I should start up the capacitor self charging experiments and 
>try those against stock prices. Wow - 20 mV per hour?! Buy! buy! 
>buy!<g>
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

I thought it was a dumb idea too, but you never know.  There are statistics
(I almost wrote staticistics...) available online for so many things these
days that it seems like if you had the computing power, you could overlay
stock charts with a bunch of other stats until you found a fit.  Individual
stocks or great market trends, it really wouldn't matter, and there wouldn't
necessarily need to be any logical connection between the two.  Just a
similarity in movements over time.  I have no money for that kind of
foolishness anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 17:49:30 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:47:36 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
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On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 04:17:14PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> Flat space means not curved.  Look up Boomerang and The Comsmic Triangle in 
> the Archive.  No noise at all.
> 
> The relevance is science as we know it is bogus.
> 
> Are you another kicking ad screaming scientist?  Dr. Vera Rubin has also 
> stated "scientists will go kicking and screaming into the next century".  
> Stated a few years ago.

Actually no.  I'm a programmer, mathematition and musician.  I'm
interested in your comments because of a theory that I've been
working on for a few years which is very much to do with curves
(the straight lines being the imaginary boundary conditions).

> The relevance is, know it all scientic dogma is out, new ways of looking at
> things in in.

Yes, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 27 18:01:01 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Common Sense
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:59:27 PDT
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Hey, I'm nobody.  Won't be me doing the throwing, but it appears the baby 
grew up and left home years ago, and the water is just sitting there, a 
cesspool of pollution.

There are curved lines galore, don't get the wrong idea.  Check out THE ROSE 
in the Archive.

The Whirlpool Universe.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Common Sense
>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:47:36 +0100
>
>On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 04:17:14PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > Flat space means not curved.  Look up Boomerang and The Comsmic Triangle 
>in
> > the Archive.  No noise at all.
> >
> > The relevance is science as we know it is bogus.
> >
> > Are you another kicking ad screaming scientist?  Dr. Vera Rubin has also
> > stated "scientists will go kicking and screaming into the next century".
> > Stated a few years ago.
>
>Actually no.  I'm a programmer, mathematition and musician.  I'm
>interested in your comments because of a theory that I've been
>working on for a few years which is very much to do with curves
>(the straight lines being the imaginary boundary conditions).
>
> > The relevance is, know it all scientic dogma is out, new ways of looking 
>at
> > things in in.
>
>Yes, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
>
>Joe
>--
>Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
>Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
>Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
>joe tao.org.uk]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 03:22:54 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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At 2:50 PM 8/27/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> http://www.ide-tech.com/code/mec.html


Neat references you provided.  It looks like there are some pretty good
desalinization schemes available now.  I think there are some very big
osmosis type plants too.  Never hurts to brainstorm a bit though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 03:42:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Free Energy 1 (reprise to criticism #1)
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On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 05:35:25PM -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> I notice that the attachment I tried to send with my last message didn't
> go. I tried to send it again, but it still didn't go. Until I can figure
> out what is wrong, I guess those who are interested in this will have to
> either pull up the original, or, if you didn't save it, go by memory.
> Sorry. --MJ

Got it fine here.

You could do with encoding it in Mime though and not BinHex.  Most
people can't do binhex - Mime was adopted as a standard a few years
ago, and is generally a much better idea.  Take a look in your
mailer preferences.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 04:55:48 2000
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 vortices structure
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/08/000824081534.htm

Calculation Provides Insight Into
Quantum Superconductivity Of Bizzare
Particles 

A new property of a bizarre particle known as a composite fermion
has been calculated by the physicist who first predicted its
existence, Jainendra Jain, the Erwin W. Mueller Professor of
Physics at Penn State, and his colleagues Vito W. Scarola, a
graduate researcher at Penn State, and Kwon Park, a research
assistant at Penn State. The research, to be published in the 24
August 2000 issue of the journal Nature, suggests that quantum
superconductivity could result when composite fermions come
together to form pairs in two-dimensional metals subjected to certain
extreme conditions. 

The composite fermion is a complex creature from the strange world
of quantum physics. It can be thought of as a single electron
surrounded by a number of tornado-like objects known as
quantum-mechanical vortices, which themselves are formed by a
swirling swarm of electrons. "The quantum-mechanical vortex has no
analog in our familiar every-day world," Jain explains, but he says a
simplistic way to imagine it is as a whirlpool in water or a tornado in
air. "Just as a whirlpool that forms in a sea of water has no water in
its center, a vortex that forms in a quantum-mechanical sea of
electrons has no electrons at it center," Jain explains. When a single
electron enters this empty space, the result is a composite particle
called a composite fermion. "This composite particle behaves as a
unit, just as, on the atomic scale, the union of two hydrogen atoms
with one oxygen atom behaves as a single molecule of water," Jain
explains. 

To form composite fermions physicists must first confine electrons to
two dimensions in "quantum wells," which can occur at the interface
of two semiconductors. They then must cool the trapped electrons to
extreme temperatures close to absolute zero and finally subject them
to an incredibly strong magnetic field. 

Physicists were skeptical when Jain first predicted the existence of
the composite fermion in 1989, aiming to understand the well-known
phenomenon known as "fractional quantum Hall effect," a 1982
discovery that later won the Nobel Prize in physics, but experiments
eventually confirmed its presence and showed that its properties are
surprisingly similar to those of simple electrons. "Composite-fermion
systems exhibit absolutely marvelous properties, which are entirely
unexpected and inexplicable when you think of them simply as a
collection of weakly interacting electrons, but can be understood and
modeled when you think of them as systems of composite particles,"
Jain says. 

Using this approach in their paper to be published in the journal
Nature, Jain and his colleagues now have calculated that a property
known as a "Cooper instability," which produces superconductivity in
electrons, can exist in composite fermions. This research suggests
that composite fermions are capable of achieving quantum
superconductivity. 

This calculation was motivated by the enigmatic experimental
discovery in 1987, before composite fermions were known, of a
resistence-free state by R.L. Willett and colleagues at Lucent
Technologies. Early theoretical work by M. Greiter, X.G. Wen, and F.
Wilczek at the Institute for Advanced Study, and G. Moore and N.
Read at Yale University suggested a pairing of composite fermions
in this context, but further developments in theory proved necessary
for a confirmation of this idea. 

"There are two kinds of particles in nature: bosons and fermions,"
Jain says. "The bosons go into a superfluid state by each occupying
the same quantum state, as in Bose-Einstein condensation in
ultracold magnetically trapped atoms. The fermions, on the other
hand, are not allowed to occupy the same state. They form a Fermi
sea instead. However, they can superconduct by binding into pairs,
called Cooper pairs, because a pair of fermions is a boson. The
formation of these Cooper pairs causes an instability of the Fermi
sea that catalyzes the material's transformation into a
superconducting state." 

Electrons in a high magnetic field form discrete energy levels, called
"Landau levels," which require them to make a quantum leap from
one energy level to another. The superconductivity, on the other
hand, arises out of a Fermi sea with a continuous range of energy
levels. Even though a high magnetic field is necessary for producing
composite fermions, at certain values of the field the "composite
fermions absorb all the incoming flux of the huge matnetic field so, in
effect, they behave as if they do not experience the external
magnetic field at all," Jain says. "That is why they form a Fermi sea,
which is something particals normally can do only when they are free
from any strong magnetic field." The Fermi sea of composite
fermions was predicted theoretically by two groups‹B.I. Halperin at
Harvard University, P.A. Lee at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, and N. Read at Yale University, and by U.L. Kalmeyer
and S.C. Zhang at Stanford University. 

In addition to the Fermi sea, pairing also requires an attractive
interaction between electrons. "Even though there normally is a
strong repulsion between electrons, the effect of the quantum
vortices in composite fermions is to make them slightly attractive to
each other and to give them the ability to join together in pairs," Jain
says. The new calculation provides convincing evidence that
composite fermions do indeed form these magically mobile Cooper
pairs, which could result in quantum superconductivity. 

"Exactly why composite fermions form in the first place remains a
mystery, Jain says. "We don't yet have a full understanding of why
electrons would want to sit at the center of quantum vortices." 

Jain says he does not expect to see superconducting electronic
devices such as quantum computers made with composite fermions
in the near future because of the extreme temperatures and
magnetic conditions needed for their existence. But he says, "it is
irresistible to imagine what uses could be found for composite
fermions in the future." 

This research was supported by the National Science Foundation.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 05:19:55 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units

Horace wrote:


> At 2:50 PM 8/27/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > http://www.ide-tech.com/code/mec.html
> 
> 
> Neat references you provided.  It looks like there are some pretty good
> desalinization schemes available now.  I think there are some very big
> osmosis type plants too.  Never hurts to brainstorm a bit though.

Brainstorming is a creative thought process.  :-)

The land-based Reverse Osmosis plants might do better thermally than 
the ~ 23 btu/pound (~ 18,000 foot-pounds)Mechanical Vapor Compression units. 
But, it's hard to beat the MVCs for simplicity.

A few years ago a friend built a house for a Chem Engineer that had retired after building
some million gpd R.O. plants in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

The approach that I used in ' 79 was to hook the condenser coils of a refrigeration
compressor to the evaporator side of an ethanol distillation column, and the evaporator coils
 to the condenser side of the column, and use heat exchangers on the 
incoming/outgoing streams. Thus "Heat Looping" for max efficency.

I ran out of money before I had the thing optimized. :-(

They are probably doing this with Reverse Osmosis now.

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 06:14:49 2000
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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A primer on distillation columns.  For making your own hooch.   :-)

 http://lorien.ncl.ac.uk/ming/distil/distileqp.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 06:35:20 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: DOE Laser Facility Facing Problems 
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

>NIF (National ignition facility), which has serious management and
>technological problems, is still under construction. When built, because of
>its size and cost, it will be one of a kind for a long time.
>
>As for reproducibility in the general field of inertial confinement fusion,
>there have been at least three major independent laser inertial fusion
>programs going on in the world for a long time . . .

Right. I was just kidding about reproducibility. In principle the thing
should work. However, the "technological problems," which are described in
the article, may preclude actual full scale operation with as many lasers
as they originally planned. Apparently they are having trouble with glass
lenses, among other things.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 07:57:33 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: How do we know space is flat or curved ...?: Common Sense
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	Dear Vo,
		
	What real world experiments let us know space is flat or curved?

On Sun, 27 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> Flat space means not curved.  Look up Boomerang and The Comsmic Triangle in 
> the Archive.  No noise at all.
> 
k> 
> >From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Common Sense
> >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:40:22 +0100
> >
> >On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 01:35:56PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > > Josef,
> > >
> > > If you have not heard yet they proved space is flat than I doubt I can
> > > describe exactly what it means except that space is not curved.  Motion 
> >is
> > > not directed along a curved frictionless void as was theorized before.  
> >All
> > > science based on curved space is being properly dismantled and disposed 
> >of.
> >
> >Excuse me David.  Either you know what you're talking about - in which
> >case please explain it to me.  Or... you don't in which case please don't
> >even talk about it - there's enough noise here without adding to it.
> >
> >
> >Who's they?  What did they prove?  What do you mean by flat!  Do we live
> >in a two dimensional universe?
> >
> >Thankyou.
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
> >p.s. the rest of this isn't relevant to my questioning...

> > > As Dr. Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS Science Special, (transcript 
> >posted
> > > at my website), what the new data shows from the Hubble is not in 

	What is the new data?

> >anyone's
> > > theory.  None of what we think we know is real science.
> > >
> > > David Dennard
> > > The Paradigm Shift
> > > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >CC: Antigravity egroups.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Common Sense
> > > >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:58:26 +0100
> > > >
> > > >On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:30:47AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > > > > You don't have to be an Einstein to add it up.
> > > >
> > > >I don't understand what you mean when you say that space is 'flat'.
> > > >You can't mean what I think that you mean, i.e. that it's two
> > > >dimensional!  Space is obviously curved.
> > > >
> > > > > Build the whirlpool, that's all it takes.
> > > >
> > > >Go on then.
> > > >Joe
> > > >--
> > > >Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
> > > >Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
> > > >Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org,
> > > >joe tao.org.uk]
> > > >
> > >
> > > 
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
> >http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > http://profiles.msn.com.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
> >Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
> >Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
> >joe tao.org.uk]
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 08:08:55 2000
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Cc: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How do we know space is flat or curved ...?: Common Sense
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 11:00:49AM -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Dear Vo,
> 		
> 	What real world experiments let us know space is flat or curved?

Another question to add to the pile is "in what conditions does
light travel in a mathematical straight line?"

My understanding is that it doesn't in any measurable case.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 08:37:12 2000
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	What is this, ?

	Please?

	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 09:09:05 2000
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	type

	www.dogpile.com

	Search engine.

	Then you will have sources to get the work done.

	BIG POINT:

	When you say "Space is flat"  or "Space is curved"  
	How do YOU know what to believe?



On Sun, 27 Aug 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> John, I appreciate your change in tone and offering suggestions that could 
> help.  What a difference a day makes.
> 
> But really it is only about clout.  I've see the tone change on many lists 
> now that the BBC is going to feature my work.  And that is what is wrong 
> with science, it is all about clout, money, degrees, not facts.
> 
> Facts are, the known science is bogus.
> 
> It's a band new ball game.
> 
> My access is limited on this computer, just lucky to get to do what I can 
> do.  I don't have a car and I can't drive anyway and am staying out in the 
> country with no way to go the thirty miles to any place you mention.  My 
> website was set up for me by a friend which you would know if you actually 
> read the Whirlpower Declaration.  I have no idea how this stuff works.
> 
> I am on this list because it is about what I am doing.  Although I have 
> gotten very little support, I have gotten some and I hope to get more.  The 
> only way I can approach getting my message across and getting help is to 
> keep trying and ask.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> >From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Common Sense
> >Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:42:59 -0500
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess you didn't get it that the BBC is featuring my work in an 
> >upcoming
> > > series on amateur scientists.  You should see the support growing on my 
> >list
> > > by Drs. of Science.  Whirlpower Lectures have now been given in both 
> >France
> > > and Germany, by real PhDs, on the Whirlpower Team.  We are getting real
> > > close to getting out next whirlpool up and running.
> > >
> > > But no, I don't have a computer, just get to come over her and use this 
> >one
> > > to email and search.  I do hope to get one soon and learn more.  But a
> > > mathmatical model of something that has no data would be sheer 
> >guesswork.
> >
> >---
> >
> >Guesswork?
> >
> >You know (or can find out about) gravity, the mechanical, acoustical,
> >thermal and electrical characteristics of water, the rotational velocity
> >of the earth, the effects of the tides, and on and on.  There's plenty
> >of data out there, the work is to for you to find it and use it to prove
> >or disprove your theory.  By using a model you can use the data to try
> >out any number of scenarios and determine whether conclusions you have
> >come to are valid.
> >
> >I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't have access
> >to a computer which you can use to do research yet you have access to a
> >computer which you can use to access data on the internet, set up a
> >website, do email, etc.
> >
> >I'm sure there are schools in your community which would gladly allow
> >you to use their computers if you asked.
> >
> >---
> >
> >John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
> >El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
> >"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 11:33:42 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Josef Karthauser <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:24:46 PST7BST 
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On 28-Aug-00, Josef Karthauser, wrote:
>On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 11:00:49AM -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Vo,
>> 
>> What real world experiments let us know space is flat or curved?

>Another question to add to the pile is "in what conditions does
>light travel in a mathematical straight line?"

>My understanding is that it doesn't in any measurable case.

 Back. in the late '70s, Lawrence Domash, PhD, a physicist a MIU,
 and enamoured by Steven Hawking, describe the center of a black
 hole as "pure curved space". Relevant? Hell, I don't know ;)
-- 
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http://www.futurehealth.org/roshi.htm
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http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 11:55:27 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:54:36 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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At 6:15 AM 8/28/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>
>Brainstorming is a creative thought process.  :-)


Yes, a formal process designed primarily to optimize a COLLECTIVE creative
process, but it can be applied somewhat to a solo creative effort, in that
the priniciple benefit is derived from throwing away all critical thought
in the creative portion of the process.   The great thing about
brainstorming, though, is the maximium use of synergy.  The rules are
designed with the intent to provide the best chance that the creative
output of a group is greater than the sum of the individual capacities. I
think brainstorming happens to some degree automatically on a collaborative
list like this.


>
>The land-based Reverse Osmosis plants might do better thermally than
>the ~ 23 btu/pound (~ 18,000 foot-pounds)Mechanical Vapor Compression units.
>But, it's hard to beat the MVCs for simplicity.


That 23 BTU/lb is 53.5 J/g, or the heat required to raise the water
temperature 53.5 deg. C.   I would think that kind of heat would be very
economically available from solar means in the desert.  There is cerainly
no shortage of land surface there.

In a process which conserves energy, an absolute limit to the energy
required is the energy released if the salt and contaminants are put back
into the distilled water.  I don't know what that value is for typical sea
water.  It would also be interesting to know what kind of energy these
various methods require if distilled water is the input to the plant.  I
think that would be a useful number to know for any such plant as it
provides a measure of how much improvement further design effort might
yield.

I do think 53.5 J/g would be a neat number to obtain for a small unit.
That would mean that a 53.5 watt unit could produce a gram a second, or
about a liter every 17 minutes.  That would be a useful household
commodity.  A small solar powered unit meeting those numbers would be
increadibily useful in survival gear and in developing countries or remote
areas, as well as space.

I have serious doubts that the electrostatic means I suggested could
improve or even meet the 53.5 J/g number, but perhaps a nano-level device
would work out.  A gid of insulated conductors at the surface of a
capillary bundle might work.  The idea is that opposing charges on
electrodes on either side of each capillary attract the water dipoles to
the water surface at the tip of the capillary where it tends to "stick" due
to surface tension.  Instead of actual capillary tubes, just holes etched
in the substrate, between the insulated electrodes, backed by a wicking
material, would be feasible.

Electrostatic condensation is a novel concept I think, but the most
practical approach with immediate benefits, I suspect, would be to focus on
directly utilizing solar radiation upon the evaporator.  I have seen
inflatable ball shaped condensers with clear tops that use the cool
seawater on the outside of  the bottom of the ball to condense fresh water
from seawater.  They work very slowly, and a disadvantage from a design
perspective is you need the cool sea water to do the condensing.  It is not
environmentlly sound to pump hot water out of a plant into the ocean.
Thermal wells might be an alternative source of temperature gradient,
pumping the "cool of the desert night" down into the wells at night for use
to develop a thermal differential against the hot desert sun in the day,
and vice versa.  Perhaps desert based companies of the distant future might
be shipping fresh water instead of oil.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 12:03:19 2000
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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: How do we know space is flat or curved ...?: Common Sense
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 11:24:46AM +0000, Chuck Davis wrote:
> On 28-Aug-00, Josef Karthauser, wrote:
> >On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 11:00:49AM -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Dear Vo,
> >> 
> >> What real world experiments let us know space is flat or curved?
> 
> >Another question to add to the pile is "in what conditions does
> >light travel in a mathematical straight line?"
> 
> >My understanding is that it doesn't in any measurable case.
> 
>  Back. in the late '70s, Lawrence Domash, PhD, a physicist a MIU,
>  and enamoured by Steven Hawking, describe the center of a black
>  hole as "pure curved space". Relevant? Hell, I don't know ;)

Maybe - but I've yet to see evidence that a black hole is a 'thing', like
a planet, as apposed to an observational effect, like a horizon.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 12:30:45 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Life in the clouds (fwd)
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See below.  Hey, in the Black Smoker vents in the mid-atlantic ridge,
aren't bacteria part of an entire food chain?  The possibility of
transparent "aerogel sky creatures" just got a boost I think. 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:17:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brad A. Pierce" <bapkoh netcom.com>
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: Life in the clouds


   http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns225323

-- Brad

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 13:33:51 2000
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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:31:17 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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Perhaps a nano-level device could exceed the 53.5 J/g productivity of
present day desalinators.  A gid of insulated conductors is placed between
rows of holes in a substrate, as depicted in Fig. 1.  The holes act as
capillary tubes, and are actually intended to carry water away from the
surface of the condenser, as opposed to providing water for evaporation.


                                   Dipole

                                  (+)H2O(-)
                                      |
                                      v
                    Field -                       Field +

   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                             x o                ox
                             x   o  meniscus  o  x
                             x      o o o o o    x
                             x                   x    Deposited insulating
                             x       Water       x        layer
                             x        in         x
   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx       hole        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              NNNNNNNNN      x      through      x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x     substrate     x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
                             x                   x
           Metal cathode     x                   x       Metal anode
                             x                   x       Deposited in
                             x                   x       grove made in
                             x                   x       Substrate
                             x                   x
            Substrate        x                   x
                             x                   x


            Fig 1 - Cross section of nano-structure for
                    electrostatically aided condensation




The insulated electrode strips between the rows of capillary holes, denoted
NNN... and PPP.. in Fig. 1, are made by typical  methods used for silicon
chip production, e.g. etching, deposition, and/or epitaxial methods.

In part, the desired (net) condensation is obtained by the attraction of
water dipoles by the electrostatic field in the vicinity of the capillary
mouths.  However, the most significant effect may be the effect of the
alignment of the dipoles on the surface of the water by the electrostatic
field.  This increase in the organization of the molecules on the surface,
their aligment with the electrostatic field, increases the surface tension
and selectively retains water molecules near the critical escape kinetic
energy at the surface, reducing the evaporation rate.  This reduction in
evaporation rate, i.e. increase in condensation rate, requires no energy,
except for any leakage current that slips through the substrate and top
insulating layer, which can be a very high resistance material.

The question then arises, if condensation rate can be increased without
energy, thus reducing vapor pressure, and thus causing evaporation
elsewhere, is this a Maxwell's demon?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 15:24:15 2000
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> Perhaps a nano-level device could exceed the 53.5 J/g productivity of
> present day desalinators.  A gid of insulated conductors is placed between
> rows of holes in a substrate, as depicted in Fig. 1.  The holes act as
> capillary tubes, and are actually intended to carry water away from the
> surface of the condenser, as opposed to providing water for evaporation.

The problem is very similar to D2 loading of Pd electrodes.  Only where
the surface field gradient is high will the water be deposited.  If any
"cracks"  exist where the water surface is not exposed to high-gradient
field, evaporation will exceed condensation and water will leak out. 

Wet a thin ceramic rod, connect it to earth, and surround it with a
conductive cylinder connected to high voltage.  Water should build up and
run down the ceramic rod.  If the ceramic is fairly smooth, the water
coating will cause the charged surface to be atomically smooth.  If the
ceramic is porus, the base of the rods could be cast into a plastic plate,
so the bottom of the rods would extend into a water pool, and the plastic
plate would prevent the outside air from contacting that pool.  If the gap
between the water and the metal electrode is small, then the applied
voltage can be low, yet the field gradient will be very large.  If the
insulation supporting the conductive cylinder is good, very little energy
will be needed to offset the evaporation and promote condensation.  If
thousands of wet ceramic fibers are suspended vertically in long holes in
a charged metal block, damp air would flow in and dry air flow out, while
water drips off the bottom. 

I wonder why life forms haven't discovered this phenomenon.  Maybe they
have.  Extremely thin leaf hairs, especially those located at the edges of
the leaves, would serve to concentrate the 100V/M sky field and cause the
humidity to be slightly higher near each hair.  At small scales where the
boundary layer eliminates wind, this might make a usable difference.  What
function do biologists assign to leaf hairs at present?  (My last
electrobiological speculation was that mushrooms depend on the sky field,
acting as "ink jet printers" and spewing negatively charged spores upwards
into the wind.  I still need to try making spore prints by suspending a
charged positive plate in the air above an oyster mushroom colony.) 



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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And furthermore,

>
>MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
>JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
>CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
>NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
>PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
>http://www.jpl.nasa.gov
>
>Contact: Michelle Viotti  (818) 354-8774
>
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                         April 26, 2000
>
>SPIDER-WEB SENSOR REVEALS A FLAT UNIVERSE
>
>Inspired by the elegant efficiency of spider webs,
>researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena,
>Calif., have designed a tiny, web-shaped sensor that maps faint
>structures in the early universe, reinforcing theories that the
>cosmos is flat in its geometry.
>
>(A NASA news release describing the overall results may be found
>at ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/pressrel/2000/00-067.txt .)
>Carried on an internationally sponsored balloon experiment
>called BOOMERANG (Balloon Observations of Millimetric
>Extragalactic Radiation and Geophysics), the dime-sized sensor
>known as a "micromesh bolometer" is a prime example of NASA's
>success in developing miniaturized, high-performance technologies
>for space missions.
>
>"Just as spiders spin their webs with the least amount of
>silk possible, we were able to eliminate 99 percent of the
>material used by conventional bolometers," said Dr. James Bock,
>who led in the detector's development at JPL's Microdevices
>Laboratory.  "The supporting material for our detector even has
>the same thickness as a strand in a spider's web -- about one
>micron thick, or one hundred times finer than a human hair."
>
>Using advanced micro-machining techniques, each section of
>the sensor's web was designed to be smaller than the millimeter
>wavelength of radiation streaming in from the cosmic microwave
>background.  Created when the first atoms formed in the early
>universe, the cosmic microwave background has cooled a thousand
>times from its original temperature -- comparable to the hot
>surface of the Sun -- to the cold, faint radiation seen today.
>
>While the cosmic microwave background is almost perfectly
>uniform in all directions, the sensitivity of JPL's bolometer
>allows scientists to capture temperature variations of only 100-
>millionths of a degree (0.0001 C) in just a few seconds of
>observing time.
>
>"That's sensitive enough to detect the heat given off by a coffee
>maker all the way from the Moon," said Bock.
>
>By measuring one small patch of sky after another over
>several days of observation, the bolometers plot a map of the
>cosmic background radiation, providing a snapshot of the universe
>when the radiation formed about 300,000 years after the Big Bang.
>At this time, regions with a higher density of matter and energy
>left a record in the background radiation.  Wherever dense
>regions existed, they left a faint imprint of slightly higher
>temperatures. These fluctuations in the background serve as a
>kind of fingerprint, allowing scientists to discriminate between
>theories of cosmic development.
>
>With the bolometer's high level of sensitivity, the
>BOOMERANG project was able to reveal density patterns in the
>young universe that are consistent with an inflationary theory of
>cosmic development. This theory proposes that, in the first
>moments after the Big Bang, the universe went through a period of
>extreme, exponential inflation. The theory further predicts a
>"flat" geometry for the universe, because the immense stretching
>of space during an inflationary period would have removed any
>initially strong curvature in the smaller and denser early
>universe.
>
>"Think of it this way," explains Bock.  "If we were to
>balance on a large ball, we would certainly feel the curvature
>beneath our feet.  Expand that ball to the size of the Earth, and
>we experience that space as flat.  Now think about blowing up
>that ball to a cosmic scale, and you can imagine how inflation
>would vastly flatten the visible universe."
>
>To test cosmic development theories even further, future JPL
>bolometers will fly on the European Space Agency's Far Infrared
>and Submillimetre Telescope (FIRST) and Planck missions, both
>scheduled for launch in 2007.  Using bolometers with 10 times
>higher performance, Planck is expected to provide the definitive
>map of variations in the cosmic microwave background, while FIRST
>will survey some of the earliest galaxies.  In the meantime,
>scientists will be studying the BOOMERANG map over the next few
>years to gain a better understanding of the nature and
>composition of matter in the universe.
>
>The BOOMERANG results were obtained through a balloon
>experiment in 1998 that carried JPL's bolometer in a sensitive
>receiver 36 kilometers (23 miles) above the atmosphere in
>Antarctica.  Because Antarctica provides 24-hour sunlight and
>winds that blow in a circular pattern around the continent, the
>balloon experiment was able to maintain continuous measurements
>over a 10-1/2 day period.
>
>The scientific results will be published in the April 27
>issue of Nature. Information on the BOOMERANG project can be
>found at http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~boomerang and
>http://oberon.roma1.infn.it/boomerang .  For images of JPL's
>micromesh bolometer and its results, see
>http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/boomerang .
>
>The BOOMERANG Project was led by Dr. Andrew Lange of the
>California Institute of Technology and by Dr. Paolo DeBernardis
>of the University of Rome La Sapienza. Primary funding for
>BOOMERANG was provided by the National Science Foundation and
>NASA in the United States; the Italian Space Agency, the Italian
>Antarctic Research Programme and the University of Rome La
>Sapienza in Italy; and the Particle Physics and Astronomy
>Research Council in the United Kingdom.  The Department of
>Energy's National Energy Research Supercomputing Center provided
>high-level computer analysis of the data.
>
>The Microdevices Laboratory is a state-of-the-art research
>and technology-development facility in the Center for Space
>Microelectronics Technology at JPL.  Funding for the micromesh
>bolometer came from JPL's Technology and Applications Programs
>Directorate.  JPL is managed by Caltech on behalf of NASA.
>
>
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 16:13:55 2000
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 03:27:46PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> And furthermore,

Thanks David.  They aren't talking about flat in a mathematical sense,
see below...

> >"Think of it this way," explains Bock.  "If we were to
> >balance on a large ball, we would certainly feel the curvature
> >beneath our feet.  Expand that ball to the size of the Earth, and
> >we experience that space as flat.  Now think about blowing up
> >that ball to a cosmic scale, and you can imagine how inflation
> >would vastly flatten the visible universe."

Mathematically you can expand the ball as much as you like and the
surface will approach a plane, but will never actually be one.
There will always be a curvature, in the same way that you can
divide a number by two, say, forever and it will approach zero,
but will never actually become zero.

"Flatten the visible universe" of course, but the Universe is much
much larger than the visible one because of the curvature of space,
the same way that on this planet the visible world looks flat
locally, but extends away into new space as you pass through the
horizon.  In "space" the horizons are "black holes", where the
curvature of the geodesic is orgothonal to our view point and
therefore Lorenz equations don't hold.  There's space there alright,
but we can't "see" any electromagnetic radiation eminating from
them.

If the Earth were flat we'd be able to see it all by using higher
and higher magnification binoculars.  If "space" were flat we would
be able to see it all by using more and more sensitive telescopes.

The Earth however is curved, so there will always be parts that we
can't see unless we travel to them.  The Universe is the same.
Until we start travelling, and exploring, the only maps that we
are able to make are as good as a map of the Earth made by standing
on a hill and looking all around.

It is in this sense that we consider the Universe to be curved.

If this piece of "evidence" is the only thing that you have that
"proves" that the Universe is flat, you should look again, or
explain better.  You need to logically explain what you mean, and
back it up with a few pictures, diagrams or demonstrations so that
the rest of us can understand what you mean.  That is the scientific
method.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 16:19:47 2000
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This is fantastic! On the cosmic scale, interstellar clouds especially at the center area of the Milky Way may host similar organisms. Maybe they are so low in density (99.99% vacuum) and instead of molecular bonds their atoms and ions will bonds with mag
netic interactions. One can pass inside them with an spacecraft without noticing and maybe without killing them. They not be need be organic. I am sure in quiet cold places somewhere, it is possible that matter can form very light complex self assembling 
structures.



William Beaty wrote:
> 
> See below.  Hey, in the Black Smoker vents in the mid-atlantic ridge,
> aren't bacteria part of an entire food chain?  The possibility of
> transparent "aerogel sky creatures" just got a boost I think.
> 

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 18:05:10 2000
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This is just one piece of it Joe, there are several flat space teams, each 
approaching this from a different perspective.  I'll be sending more in.

The crux of the matter is it about Einstein's theory of a curved universe.  
There is much in the archive about why and how that theory was developed.  
Basically it comes down to, is it a curved void finite universe with and 
edge, or is it a flat fluid infinite universe that has always been here and 
will always be here?

I opt for the infinite universe.  And a fluid whirlpool universe.  That has 
real data behind it now.  Ther other was just theory, never proven, pretty 
good science fiction but no real basis in fact.

Ther is no reason to think the universe is finite to start off with.  That 
defies mathmatics and common sense.

David


>From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Spider-web sensor reveals a flat universe
>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 00:02:02 +0100
>
>On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 03:27:46PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> > And furthermore,
>
>Thanks David.  They aren't talking about flat in a mathematical sense,
>see below...
>
> > >"Think of it this way," explains Bock.  "If we were to
> > >balance on a large ball, we would certainly feel the curvature
> > >beneath our feet.  Expand that ball to the size of the Earth, and
> > >we experience that space as flat.  Now think about blowing up
> > >that ball to a cosmic scale, and you can imagine how inflation
> > >would vastly flatten the visible universe."
>
>Mathematically you can expand the ball as much as you like and the
>surface will approach a plane, but will never actually be one.
>There will always be a curvature, in the same way that you can
>divide a number by two, say, forever and it will approach zero,
>but will never actually become zero.
>
>"Flatten the visible universe" of course, but the Universe is much
>much larger than the visible one because of the curvature of space,
>the same way that on this planet the visible world looks flat
>locally, but extends away into new space as you pass through the
>horizon.  In "space" the horizons are "black holes", where the
>curvature of the geodesic is orgothonal to our view point and
>therefore Lorenz equations don't hold.  There's space there alright,
>but we can't "see" any electromagnetic radiation eminating from
>them.
>
>If the Earth were flat we'd be able to see it all by using higher
>and higher magnification binoculars.  If "space" were flat we would
>be able to see it all by using more and more sensitive telescopes.
>
>The Earth however is curved, so there will always be parts that we
>can't see unless we travel to them.  The Universe is the same.
>Until we start travelling, and exploring, the only maps that we
>are able to make are as good as a map of the Earth made by standing
>on a hill and looking all around.
>
>It is in this sense that we consider the Universe to be curved.
>
>If this piece of "evidence" is the only thing that you have that
>"proves" that the Universe is flat, you should look again, or
>explain better.  You need to logically explain what you mean, and
>back it up with a few pictures, diagrams or demonstrations so that
>the rest of us can understand what you mean.  That is the scientific
>method.
>
>Joe
>--
>Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
>Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
>Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
>joe tao.org.uk]
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 18:35:16 2000
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I found that article(below).  If the current really is 10mA, there's a
huge ion wind flowing.  His gradient doesn't seem very large.  The crude
drawing in the paper version shows the central rod being about 2" diameter
in a 4" tube.  It doesn't say what that rod is.  If it's cloth or
something, then the surface is not polished, and it would unnecessarily
emit ion wind (and draw current, wasting energy.)  A smooth wet surface
might be better? 

   ELECTROSTATICS NEWSLETTER
   Nov/Dec 1998  No. 141
   http://www.electrostatics.org/Newletters/esanews16.htm
   Professor Stuart Hoenig from the University of Arizona has told us of a
   system he has devised to condense moisture from humid air by passing it
   through a high voltage gradient.  He estimates the running cost to be
   about one-fifth that of an air conditioner.  He would welcome inquiries
   from companies who might be interested in manufacturing and selling the
   units.
   [billb note: diagram, 48"L 4"D grounded tube with rodlike object
    suspended inside, -28KV applied to central object   10mA ]
   Dr. Hoenig can be reached at:
   80 W. Yvon Dr.
   Tucson, AZ 85704
   Phone 520-887-3815
   Fax 520-887-9729
   email hoenig ece.arizona.edu

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 28 18:52:43 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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At 3:20 PM 8/28/0, William Beaty wrote:

>The problem is very similar to D2 loading of Pd electrodes.

I must not have stated the design clearly.  The proposed design is not
similar to D2 loading at all.  I have completely overcome that problem by
including both anode and cathode in the nano-structure (both fully
insulated.)  The clever feature of the proposed design is that the field
runs laterally across the capillary opening instead of longitudinally with
it, as in the previously proposed designs.  The structure in Fig. 1 is very
very small, and, if there is no flaw in the overall concept, would probably
work at less than 10 volts. The electrodes run in long rows with a row of
capillary openings between each pair of electrodes.  The water is returned
via a wick or other capillary mechanism mated to the back side of the chip.
The chip may have to operate at a high elevation with respect to the water
collection reservoir in order to maintain the meniscus as shown.  The
weight of the water then maintains the meniscus geometry without pumping.

I do want to say that this design appears initially to be one of my better
proposals, though it has not in any way been seriously scrutized for flaws.


                                   Dipole

                                  (+)H2O(-)
                                      |
                                      v
                    Field -                       Field +

   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                             x o                ox
                             x   o  meniscus  o  x
                             x      o o o o o    x
                             x                   x    Deposited insulating
                             x       Water       x        layer
                             x        in         x
   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx       hole        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              NNNNNNNNN      x      through      x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x     substrate     x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
              NNNNNNNNN      x                   x      PPPPPPPPPP
                             x                   x
           Metal cathode     x                   x       Metal anode
                             x                   x       Deposited in
                             x                   x       grove made in
                             x                   x       Substrate
                             x                   x
            Substrate        x                   x
                             x                   x


            Fig 1 - Cross section of nano-structure for
                    electrostatically aided condensation



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Since Horace was kind enough to fashion a triangular Helmholtz Coil and
posted the results obtained when a current is passed through the coil as it
is rotated or moved about in the Magnetogravity Field, one must conclude
that this is not just an "Artifact" of the ohmmeter,but rather an interesting
effect produced by a current loop "gyrating" in the magnetogravity field.

A follow-up experiment would be to pass a current through the windings
of an armature of a motor or generator sans field coils/magnets and see what happens to
the voltage or current as it is spun about a horizontal or vertical axis.

The armature (field windings) from a scrap automotive alternator might do.

Regards,    Frederick


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Some good exercises in coil design.

 http://physics.njit.edu/classes/physlab/laboratory121/lab210/lab210_ULI.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 02:30:05 2000
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This effect tends to explain why the ohmmeter indicates an Increase
in Resistance when a current-carrying loop is rapidly moved/accelerated
in the Magnetogravity Field

 http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/lenzlaw/index.html

IOW, the back EMF bucks the current, thus giving an increase in resistance.

Regards,      Frederick


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 02:33:35 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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Fred writes:

> http://www.ide-tech.com/code/mec.html

Hi Fred,

Had a look at this URL, and it reminded me a bit of the Maxim that was built
by Beard Industries.  The vac pump that Beard used was a multistage water
pump, and this one shows what they call a "liquid ring" vac pump.  I'm kind
of assuming that it must be similar to a refer vac pump or a roughing vac
pump using oil.  What do you reckon that they are using for the liquid on
this one?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units

Knuke wrote:


> Fred writes:
> 
> > http://www.ide-tech.com/code/mec.html
> 
> Hi Fred,
> 
> Had a look at this URL, and it reminded me a bit of the Maxim that was built
> by Beard Industries.  The vac pump that Beard used was a multistage water
> pump, and this one shows what they call a "liquid ring" vac pump.  I'm kind
> of assuming that it must be similar to a refer vac pump or a roughing vac
> pump using oil.  What do you reckon that they are using for the liquid on
> this one?

I have to say they are using a water ring, Knuke.

There are many water-seal vacuum pumps on the market that do quite well
(no pun intended) as long as you don't let the temperature/vapor pressure
get too high (~18 torr   68 F, ~150 torr@140 F).

Regards,   Frederick


> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 04:21:09 2000
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--=====================_967558199==_
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>I have to say they are using a water ring, Knuke.
>
>There are many water-seal vacuum pumps on the market that do quite well
>(no pun intended) as long as you don't let the temperature/vapor pressure
>get too high (~18 torr   68 F, ~150 torr@140 F).
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Interesting, it seems to me that if you were serious about pulling a vac
>730mm, you would go with a multistage or even better a diaphragm pump.
Diaphragm pumps will pump vapor or water with no oils or liquid seals, and
not get damaged.  Even a rubber diaphragm can pull that, but I think Ti
diaphragms would be better.

Here is a schematic of the Maxim that I worked on, and the PW pump is the
diaphragm pump.  The cold seawater served as a heat exchanger type of
condensor, so no compressor was needed, and the waste heat from genset kept
the tank at ~170 F.

Knuke

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--=====================_967558199==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

--=====================_967558199==_--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 07:16:34 2000
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 06:16:46 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Rotating Current Loop in  the Magnetogravity Field
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At 2:34 AM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Since Horace was kind enough to fashion a triangular Helmholtz Coil and
>posted the results obtained when a current is passed through the coil as it
>is rotated or moved about in the Magnetogravity Field, one must conclude
>that this is not just an "Artifact" of the ohmmeter,but rather an interesting
>effect produced by a current loop "gyrating" in the magnetogravity field.


That was not my conclusion.  My cnclusion was that the effect (artifact?)
is likely due to momentarily changing the AC current induced in the coil..
The AC current is much much larger than the resistance sampling current, so
a momentary change in the RF current samples out to a brief DC current.
THe largest source of AC radiation in my environment was from flourescent
light fixtures.



>
>A follow-up experiment would be to pass a current through the windings
>of an armature of a motor or generator sans field coils/magnets and see
>what happens to
>the voltage or current as it is spun about a horizontal or vertical axis.
>
>The armature (field windings) from a scrap automotive alternator might do.
>
>Regards,    Frederick


I still think it is likely that the effect (artifact?) will disappear if
the experiment is done in a completely shielded environment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> >If the field gradient aims towards the
> >insulator, water would collect there and tend to form a conductive shield
> >which traps the field inside the insulator layer and eliminates the
> >gradient in the air.
> 
> Actually I think not sufficiently to eliminate the desired condensation
> equilibrium shift.  Only isolated ions can cancel the field itself.  Water,
> which consists of dipoles, acts as principly a dielectric in this case,
> whcih simply passes the filed on through it.

In real-world electrostatics, water behaves as a conductor.  Only
ultra-pure, totally deionized water acts as a dielectric.  That and
thought-experiment water!  :)  I don't know if the water in your device
will be sufficiently uncontaminated.  You'd have to have HEPA filters,
etc., to make sure no airborne particles drop any salts into the system. 
Once dissolved ions get into it, they will be held in place and won't flow
out again.

> As for what happens in the water itself, it seems to me the drawing of ions
> in the solution towards the electrodes creates the very dielectric field
> effect desired in the solution.

Nope.  It causes the appearance of oppositely-charged capacitor plates
made of ions.  The field will be strong between the electrode and the
layer of ions, and very weak on the other side of the ions.  One thing in
your favor is the fact that the electret in an electrostatic microphone
lasts for years.  Either contaminating ions never build up in the sealed
container, or the microphone is somehow immune for other reasons.

> Hmmm..., I wonder if the suggested evaporation rate reduction effect due to
> the dielectric properties of water could be made to work somewhat on a
> macro level, say using a container of water and some insulated high voltage
> wire and a neon sign transformer.  Unfortunately, the agitation of a 60 Hz
> field would probably cause evaporation to increase instead of decrease.

If a fairly small macroscopic device was mounted on a laboratory balance,
you could run it for awhile in a humid environment and look for weight
gain.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 08:03:58 2000
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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I noticed a posting a few days back in which someone gave the 
specifications for what I thought was a super efficient distiller. I 
take it that this has been a theoretical discussion about how such a 
machine might be built using nanotechnology.

Steve Beaty's last posting about how the hairs on a leaf might 
produce such an effect reminds me that the Sonic Bloom man, Dan 
Carlson, reports that plants treated with his foliar feed and exposed 
to the sonic chirping survive better in a drought than non treated 
plants because they water them selves from the dew.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 08:32:38 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units

Knuke wrote:
> 
> Interesting, it seems to me that if you were serious about pulling a vac
> >730mm, you would go with a multistage or even better a diaphragm pump.
> Diaphragm pumps will pump vapor or water with no oils or liquid seals, and
> not get damaged.  Even a rubber diaphragm can pull that, but I think Ti
> diaphragms would be better.

The  Vapor Eductor/Ejector is the vacuum pump on the system diagram you sent, Knuke.

They will work using water or steam as a motive fluid. 

I've used them with water, and  pulled a 10 torr vacuum  with 60 F water recirculated
with a centrifugal pump.

Using Freon  114 or such as the working fluid the Eductors/Ejectors will work as
a "Heat Pump"  with a C.O.P. of about 0.6 as a refrigerator or 1.60 when you use a 
condensate return pump.

Penberthy makes a full line of Eductors/Ejectors from the size of your thumb up
to very large units. I used the a Deep Well Jet that I picked up for a song at
a plumbing supply house.

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Knuke
> 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 08:48:44 2000
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May a question remain: 

If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My meter was totally 
irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> This effect tends to explain why the ohmmeter indicates an Increase
> in Resistance when a current-carrying loop is rapidly moved/accelerated
> in the Magnetogravity Field
> 
>  http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/lenzlaw/index.html
> 
> IOW, the back EMF bucks the current, thus giving an increase in resistance.
> 
> Regards,      Frederick
> 

Regards,
hamdi ucar

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Hamdi wrote:


> May a question remain: 
> 
> If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My meter was totally 
> irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.

Let's see. I tried it about six years ago and mentioned it to Hal Puhoff and he tried it
and got similar results using a 10 meg resistor. Vince Cockeram tried it with similar
results. Horace got similar results, but with his unusual explanations :-).

With those kind of statistics, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Podkletnov/Tampere and De Aquino's Gravity Shielding phenomenon is a 
related effect. 

So ?

Regards,     Frederick

> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > 
> > This effect tends to explain why the ohmmeter indicates an Increase
> > in Resistance when a current-carrying loop is rapidly moved/accelerated
> > in the Magnetogravity Field
> > 
> >  http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/lenzlaw/index.html
> > 
> > IOW, the back EMF bucks the current, thus giving an increase in resistance.
> > 
> > Regards,      Frederick
> > 
> 
> Regards,
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 10:14:27 2000
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http://www.evert.de/eft00e.htm

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The Wobble, Common Sense, Flat Space
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:20:34 PDT
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Thomas,

Since you offered to build Whirlpower if can show you it does not break 
scientific law, consider, what is the law?  I think conservation of energy 
is a good law but energy is not just something about heat.  ZPE means energy 
at absolute zero in the absence of heat.

Science is changing.  Flat space is now proven.  The old ways of seeing 
energy of motion do not explain the current real data.  Just like in 
Galileo's day better telescope vision made the authority look foolish, so 
they just tried to ignore it and wished Galileo would just shut up.  The Sun 
had gone around the Earth for a long time, everybody knew it they were not 
going to change it now.

The universe has been curved for a century now, all hail Einstein, but the 
facts show a different story.

Now we are moving towards the cosmological constant.  It's real easy to see 
once you get it that gravity "causes" evaporation.  That's the key to it 
all.  Heat displases density, gravity balances the scales of density, just 
like a bubble, just like a hot air balloon.

And just like the speed of light in flat fluid space.

Build Whirlpower and you will go down in history forever.  Do it quickly and 
you be with me on the upcoming BBC Special on amateur scientists, The 
Passions of Science.

David Dennard
On The Threshold Of A Dream
http://www.whirlpower.cc
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 10:26:37 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Universe Proven Flat
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:22:56 PDT
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>BBC
>Wednesday, 26 April, 2000, 19:59 GMT 20:59 UK
>
>The Boomerang:
>
>A high-flying balloon which soared over Antarctica has answered one of
>cosmology's greatest questions by revealing that the universe is
>"flat".
>
>To astronomers, flat means that the usual rules of geometry are
>observed - light travels in straight lines, not curves.  But since
>Albert Einstein proposed that the universe was "curved", the debate
>has been open.
>
>Scientific opinion has moved towards a flat universe and the latest
>data confirm this with greater certainty than ever before.
>
>Another result of the study is the prediction that the universe will
>eventually stop expanding from the Big Bang, but will not collapse
>into a "Big Crunch".
>
>"It's a tremendously exciting result - and one that will mean
>rewriting the text books on the history of the universe," said one of
>the research team, Professor Peter Ade at Queen Mary College,
>University of London.
>
>Faint heat
>
>The new information is an exquisitely accurate map of the very
>faint afterglow of heat left behind by the Big Bang.  This is called
>the Cosmic Microwave Background and is equivalent to the tiny warmth
>given off by something just a few degrees above absolute zero, -273
>degC.
>
>Tiny temperature variations in the CMB, just 0.1% at most, allow
>scientists to test different models of how the Universe began and
>expanded.
>
>The map was made by an international team led by Paulo de Bernardis
>of the University of Rome La Sapienza.  He said: "It's really exciting
>to be able to see some of the fundamental structures of the Universe
>in their embryonic state.
>
>The achievement, he said, was distinguishing the CMB from other
>interference: "The light we have detected has travelled across the
>entire Universe and we are perfectly able to distinguish it from the
>light generated in our own galaxy."
>
>Sky high boomerang
>
>The project to map the CMB was called Boomerang (Balloon Observations
>of Millimetric Extragalactic Radiation and
>Geophysics).
>
>The measurements were made using a very sensitive telescope suspended
>from a balloon 40,000 metres (131,000 feet) above Antarctica.  The
>instrument flew around the frozen continent between 29 December 1998
>and 8 January 1999.
>
>It has taken since then to process the one billion measurements.  The
>calculations alone would have taken six years to complete if run on a
>desktop computer.  On the Cray T3E supercomputer at the Lawrence
>Berkeley National Laboratory, US, they took less than three weeks.
>
>The fundamental cosmic parameters derived from the work are accurate
>to within just a few percent.
>
>The research is published in the journal Nature and in an accompanying
>commentary, Wayne Hu, of the US School of Natural Sciences, New
>Jersey, said: "The Boomerang result supports a flat Universe.  A
>perfectly flat Universe will remain at the critical density, because
>there is not enough matter to make it recollapse in a 'Big Crunch'."
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 10:49:39 2000
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Subject: Re: Interesting site
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:46:53 PDT
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Classic tornado type vortex science, Chaos theory style, been tried, don't 
work.

This is what "real" scienctists have tried numerous times this century, even 
here.  The "real" scientists however have never built a whirlpool.  The 
"real" scientists don't even know what a whirlpool is.

Confirmed and backed up independently at;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

Now back up after being down.

And anyone that has read my posts can confirm no scientist, or anyone, has 
ever met my challenge on this list to produce whirlpool data, where this 
known event has been tested in a scientific manner.  Lot's of tornado type 
vortex stuff, Evert, Schauberger, Ash, Winter, Russel, ect. way ect., but no 
whirlpools, except,

http://www.whirlpower.cc

David


>From: Robert Hoffmann <robert.hoffmann easynet.be>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: jlnlabs egroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Interesting site
>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:05:09 +0200
>
>
>
>http://www.evert.de/eft00e.htm
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 10:58:44 2000
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:55:35 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Rotating Current Loop in  the Magnetogravity Field
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Frederick -

At 2:34 AM -0700 8/29/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>A follow-up experiment would be to pass a current through the windings
>of an armature of a motor or generator sans field coils/magnets and 
>see what happens to
>the voltage or current as it is spun about a horizontal or vertica

Further musings: I wonder if there would be any difference between 
cases where the current was commuted to the spun section from an 
unspun source, and one where the source was mounted in the spinning 
section? That transition at the brushes of a homopolar moter where 
the current goes from the spinning to the non-spinning frame of 
reference still fascinates me, and I know I don't fully "get it".

Also, there was a message here a couple of years ago by an irregular 
poster regarding some alleged unusual reaction effect from a spinning 
coil being waved about. The response here was that it was just a 
gyroscopic kick when he tried to move the coil, but I seem to recall 
that the poster said the effect only occured when the current was 
flowing. I don't think anyone believed him.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 11:12:21 2000
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Subject: Re: [FG]: We're missing BURNING MAN 2000
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Here's an interesting part of the Burning Man festival

  http://www.mad-scientists.com



(http://www.burningman.com)

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 11:51:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:41:06 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2000 at 06:01:34PM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> This is just one piece of it Joe, there are several flat space teams, each 
> approaching this from a different perspective.  I'll be sending more in.
> 
> The crux of the matter is it about Einstein's theory of a curved universe.  
> There is much in the archive about why and how that theory was developed.  
> Basically it comes down to, is it a curved void finite universe with and 
> edge, or is it a flat fluid infinite universe that has always been here and 
> will always be here?

It is possible for a space to be both infinite and bounded, which
is another case that you've not considered.  It is consistant with
Einstein's theories but is still infinite in nature.  To understand
how this is possible you need to get your head around the four
dimensions that this Universe is composed of (I'm not taking about
time here).

Don't for one second assume that to take Einstein's theory on board
you need to make the Universe finite!

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 11:55:18 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 6:46 PM 8/29/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
>May a question remain:
>
>If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My
>meter was totally
>irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.


Is your meter digital or analog?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field


Rick wrote:
> 
> At 2:34 AM -0700 8/29/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >A follow-up experiment would be to pass a current through the windings
> >of an armature of a motor or generator sans field coils/magnets and 
> >see what happens to
> >the voltage or current as it is spun about a horizontal or vertical axis.
> 
> Further musings: I wonder if there would be any difference between 
> cases where the current was commuted to the spun section from an 
> unspun source, and one where the source was mounted in the spinning 
> section? That transition at the brushes of a homopolar moter where 
> the current goes from the spinning to the non-spinning frame of 
> reference still fascinates me, and I know I don't fully "get it".

That's the kicker, Rick. The 8.5 Hz Electron and 3.1 Megahertz quark 
"Magnetogravity Field" is from time dilation due to the "circular" 
Accelerated Reference Frame, which seems to mean that coupling from an 
inertial (rest) frame just doesn't happen.

Vince is setting up the experiment for pulsing a current loop to see if it causes any force or
torque, based on a calculated force of ~ 85 pounds on a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop
at the Earth's surface with 3.1 Megahertz pulses.
> 
> Also, there was a message here a couple of years ago by an irregular 
> poster regarding some alleged unusual reaction effect from a spinning 
> coil being waved about. 

Interesting. Apparently coupling to the Magnetogravity Field is a bit
more involved than trying to use inertial frame magnetics.

> The response here was that it was just a 
> gyroscopic kick when he tried to move the coil, but I seem to recall 
> that the poster said the effect only occured when the current was 
> flowing. 

Seems that there was a claim that an electric  motor "got lighter" when it
was operated with the axis vertical?

> I don't think anyone believed him.

That figures.   :-) Thanks for the info.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 12:19:56 2000
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Hamdi wrote:
> 
> > May a question remain:
> >
> > If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My meter was totally
> > irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.
> 
> Let's see. I tried it about six years ago and mentioned it to Hal Puhoff and he tried it
> and got similar results using a 10 meg resistor. Vince Cockeram tried it with similar
> results. Horace got similar results, but with his unusual explanations :-).
> 
> With those kind of statistics, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
You misunderstood my question. I do not deny the effect. I ask why i can not produce it if the answer is on the textbook, assuming effects described on textbooks are easily producable.:)

> 
> The Podkletnov/Tampere and De Aquino's Gravity Shielding phenomenon is a
> related effect.
> 

Do you think the paper of De Aquino is OK? I am not against that ELF may produce gravity free regions, but the paper  have serious problems.

> So ?

I will try all sort of swing and rotation with a 10M. Stay tuned:)

> 

> Regards,     Frederick

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 12:38:16 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 6:46 PM 8/29/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
>May a question remain:
>
>If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My
>meter was totally
>irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.


Hamdi,

Could you describe how you are measuring?  Do you have an actual multi-turn
coil?  What is the resistance of your coil?  Are you actually measuring
resistance or just current?  Are you using a digital or analog resistance
meter?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 9:57 AM 8/29/0, thomas malloy wrote:
>I noticed a posting a few days back in which someone gave the
>specifications for what I thought was a super efficient distiller. I
>take it that this has been a theoretical discussion about how such a
>machine might be built using nanotechnology.


More than just a theoretical discussion I hope.  More of a pulic disclosure
of various untested designs conjured up to facilitate creative discussion.


>
>Steve Beaty's last posting about how the hairs on a leaf might
>produce such an effect reminds me that the Sonic Bloom man, Dan
>Carlson, reports that plants treated with his foliar feed and exposed
>to the sonic chirping survive better in a drought than non treated
>plants because they water them selves from the dew.


Do you have any more information about how the "foliar feed" and chiping
assist the watering from the dew?  Is this somehow fiber related?  It
sounds like Carlson's method might be more related to getting the deposited
dew into the plant, as opposed to increasing the amount of dew condensed on
the plant.

This does bring to mind the powerful dew accumulating ability of spider
webs and geranium stems.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Digital, it does approx. 2 refreshes per seconds. It have two significant digits below 1 Ohms at its lowest scale.

The word that i had not spelled out would be "unresponsive". :)

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 6:46 PM 8/29/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >May a question remain:
> >
> >If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My
> >meter was totally
> >irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.
> 
> Is your meter digital or analog?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

hamdi

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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Hamdi wrote:
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > Hamdi wrote:
> >
> > > May a question remain:
> > >
> > > If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My meter was
totally
> > > irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.

As Horace asked, are you using a Digital or Analog ohmmeter?

If the Magnetogravity Field  is acting on the current-carrying loop, as though
it was the field from a magnet, it should set up a back EMF according to Lenz's Law,
and a sensitive (digital) ohmmeter will interpret this as an Increase in resistance.
> >
> > Let's see. I tried it about six years ago and mentioned it to Hal Puhoff and he tried it
> > and got similar results using a 10 meg resistor. Vince Cockeram tried it with similar
> > results. Horace got similar results, but with his unusual explanations :-).
> >
> > With those kind of statistics, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
>
> You misunderstood my question. I do not deny the effect. I ask why i can not produce it if the
answer is on the textbook, assuming effects described on textbooks are easily producable.:)

I don't think your're going to find Magnetogravity Field Effects in any unclassified textbooks,
Hamdi.  :-)
>
> >
> > The Podkletnov/Tampere and De Aquino's Gravity Shielding phenomenon is a
> > related effect.
> >
>
> Do you think the paper of De Aquino is OK? I am not against that ELF may produce gravity free
regions, but the paper  have serious problems.

I think "gravity shielding" by using several kilowatts/pound of iron powder is OK by me.  :-)

You gotta learn to walk before you learn to run.  :-)

Regards,       Frederick


>
> > So ?
>
> I will try all sort of swing and rotation with a 10M. Stay tuned:)
>
> >
>
> > Regards,     Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 13:21:00 2000
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I was wondering what the various theories are to explain the self inductance 
in Faraday's Disk...

Trying to develop a homopolar generator...
Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________________
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Hi Horace,

I only tried to repeat that Frederick did. A simple loop with shorted meter probes. I did not tried to attach a coil. If you suggest to use coils I will. I have approx. 5 inches diameter single layer 100 turn coil to swing and rotate. But if I use coils i
t would be natural that it can pick earth magnetic field give measurable induction when it rotate or swing.
What you suggest I try?  have 100MHz scope in good shape, so I can conduct more comprehensive experiments.:)

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 6:46 PM 8/29/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >May a question remain:
> >
> >If it is a regular effect, how can be explained its absence in my try? My
> >meter was totally
> >irresponsible... uh... insensitive to swing and rotates.
> 
> Hamdi,
> 
> Could you describe how you are measuring?  Do you have an actual multi-turn
> coil?  What is the resistance of your coil?  Are you actually measuring
> resistance or just current?  Are you using a digital or analog resistance
> meter?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards, hamdi


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Here's another version of the same thing:

  Electrostatically-enhanced frost growth
  http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/electric/electric.htm

If a grounded, water-filled glass capillary tube juts out into the field
of a nearby charged electrode, it would have similar geometry to the ice
needle above.  (The ice needles were about 0.1mm dia, growing at 30u/sec.) 
The strong field-gradient at the water surface at the tip of the capillary
tube will yank water molecules out of the surrounding space.  A million
such capillaries would give us ~1mL/sec water supply.  But crank up
the voltage too high, and the capillary becomes an "ink-jet printer", see:

  Electrospray
  http://www.aps.org/BAPSDFD98/abs/S8130009.html

This limits the field strength attainable.  At some point the charged
water will repel itself and form little jets. 


Side topic: this "electrospray" may have been the stimulus which led to
Tesla's infamous death ray.  He accelerated charged tungsten microclusters
with a few DC megavolts in a vacuum, producing a "beam"  which was
incredibly thin, but which delivered many watts to the tiny target area. 
He claimed that he could slice up aircraft from over 100 miles distance. 
If this was real, a better use would be as a tool.  Think about water-jet
cutters and CNC industrial lasers.  Bandsaws with a really narrow saw
kerf.  Make a "dremel tool" version.  Whittle tree trunks freehand, not
with a chainsaw, but with a Tesla Death Ray generator. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 15:12:53 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Mechanical Vapor Compression Sea Water Desalinization Units
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Fred writes:
>The  Vapor Eductor/Ejector is the vacuum pump on the system diagram you
sent, Knuke.
>
>They will work using water or steam as a motive fluid. 
>
>I've used them with water, and  pulled a 10 torr vacuum  with 60 F water
recirculated
>with a centrifugal pump.
>
>Using Freon  114 or such as the working fluid the Eductors/Ejectors will
work as
>a "Heat Pump"  with a C.O.P. of about 0.6 as a refrigerator or 1.60 when
you use a 
>condensate return pump.
>
>Penberthy makes a full line of Eductors/Ejectors from the size of your thumb up
>to very large units. I used the a Deep Well Jet that I picked up for a song at
>a plumbing supply house.

Right about the eductors, but to get the condensed drinking water out of the
tank, you still have to pull against that vac or negative head.  If that
trough runs dry, which happens every so often, then you are pulling vapor
which will destroy most mechanical rotary pumps.  With the diaphragm pump it
didn't matter, since there were no shaft seals.  I think with a Ti diaphragm
pump you could pull a pretty good vac without the eductors, and boil water
that way.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Curious signal
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An unusual 0.043 Hz signal was observed by me here in Palmer, Alaska, at
about 1 PM ADT (Alaska Daylight Time), which I believe is 8 hours ahead of
Greenwich, giving the time as about 21:00Z, Aug 8, 2000.  The signal lasted
for about 5 to 10 minutes (unmeasured duration.)   It took me while to
realize the signal was ambient, and not an artifact of an experiment in
progress.

The signal was detected using a triangular coil of wire about 1 foot on a
side and containing 40 turns of No. 24 wire.  The coil was laid flat on a
table.  The circuit contained a DMM (turned off) on the 200 mV scale in
series with the coil and a 10 Megohm resistor, and a Tek TDS 220 scope in
parallel with the DMM.  The signal registered on the Tek Scope as a change
in peak heights of 200 mV (700 mv pk-pk) 60 Hz noise in the coil.  The
noise drifted up and down as a unit, indicating an appx. 50 mV rms
superimposed ELF signal.  There were two probes connected to the circuit
and they followed each other perfectly.  The signal was not sinusoidal but
looked more like pulses.  Oddly, the bottom peaks of the 60 Hz noise did
not follow the top peaks, indicating a simultaniously varying background
noise amplitude.

The scope trace looked roughly something like this (from a now hour old
recollection):


          XX                   XX                   XX
        XXXXX                XXXXX                XXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CH 1
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


          XX                   XX                   XX
        XXXXX                XXXXX                XXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CH 2
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



There was about 23 seconds between peaks.  The scope was set on 5 sec/div.
I thought it was strange the bottom line of the trace did not follow the
top line, thus indicating the background noise amplitude, which I thought
to be primarily 60 Hz noise, must be also changing with the signal.  I do
not have FFT on my scope.  It would have been interesting to see what the
higher frequency background signal was doing.

I continue to see occasional signals on the same setup that look like the
following:


  XXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CH 1
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


  XXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CH 2
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Another major repetitive signal at .25 Hz was observed in progress at 2:07
ADT, 22:07z.  It appears the signal frequency is slowly decreasing, and
continues in progress at 22:11z.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Hamdi wrote:
>
> sic Using a coil with many turns will pick up from the Geomagnetic Field
>
EMF =      v*B*L*n 

v = velocity (meters/second)
B =  5.0E-5   (Tesla)
L = (Pi)*winding diameter   (turn length meters)
n = the number of turns on the coil

For example:
Moving a coil 0.1 meters diameter with 100 turns at 1.0 meters/second in the 
Earth's B field:

1.0 * 5.0E-5 * 0.314*100 =  31.40E-5  = 0.314 millivolts

Hardly enough to account for the resistance effect noted, Hamdi.  :-)

OTOH, the Magnetogravity Current Loop at the center of the Earth
is 0.02583*5.98E24 = 1.54E23 Ampere-Meters.

Then at the Earth's surface 1.54E23/(6.38E6)^2 = 3.79E9 Ampere-Meters
for a 1.0 Ampere-Meter Current Loop.

Then B (Magnetogravity Field) = 3.79E9 * 4(Pi)E-7  =  ~ 4,770 Tesla! ???  :-)

Regards,    Frederick





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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 10:25 PM 8/29/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
>Digital, it does approx. 2 refreshes per seconds. It have two significant
>digits below 1 Ohms at its lowest scale.

OK, so perhaps you are not getting the effect because your environment is
comparatively AC quiet.  I get a 200 mV 60 Hz waveform from a quiet resting
coil when there is a 10 M resistor in the circuit.  By putting my hand near
the coil or touching it I can get up to 6 mV momentary output on the volt
scale of my DMM - it is not even required to use the ohmmeter scale.  The
60 Hz AC coupling to the coil from my body produces a large rise in the AC
signal in the coil.  I think I am seeing a meter sampling artifact.

This kind of test has to be done in a quiet shielded environment,
preferably using an anlog meter, or fast sampling scope like my 1 Ghz
sampling rate Tek scope.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:34:40 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 4:37 PM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Hamdi wrote:
>>
>> sic Using a coil with many turns will pick up from the Geomagnetic Field
>>
>EMF =      v*B*L*n
>
>v = velocity (meters/second)
>B =  5.0E-5   (Tesla)
>L = (Pi)*winding diameter   (turn length meters)
>n = the number of turns on the coil
>
>For example:
>Moving a coil 0.1 meters diameter with 100 turns at 1.0 meters/second in the
>Earth's B field:
>
>1.0 * 5.0E-5 * 0.314*100 =  31.40E-5  = 0.314 millivolts
>
>Hardly enough to account for the resistance effect noted, Hamdi.  :-)


Uh... there should be no voltage induced by lateral motion of a coil in the
earth's magnetic field, because one side of the loop cancels the other.
Only rotational motion should induce a voltage, or possibly a fluctuating
geomagnetic or other ambient magnetic field.

It apears my DMM applies about 6 millivolts across 5 Megohms when measuring
the resistance, so 0.315 millivolts is a lot.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 17:22:43 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: [FG]: We're missing BURNING MAN 2000
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Bill writes:
>Here's an interesting part of the Burning Man festival
>
>  http://www.mad-scientists.com

>(http://www.burningman.com)

Yes, but we are not too late for the Ars Electronica in Linz!

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,38454,00.html?tw=wn20000829

I attended the L'Abri Institute for a while back in 1980 before I started my
trek around Europe and Africa.  One of the main tenets of the Institute's
founder was that real artists (as opposed to the derivitive, schooled.,
type)  had some kind of premonition that allowed them to see what the
important issues and events would be over the next several decades.  Francis
Schaefer developed the theory to quite an extent, and showed throughout
history that you could see what was going to happen to the world by viewing
the art that preceeded it by about 30 to 50 years.

I've been to Linz, by the way, and it is a beautiful town.  There is a
castle from the Hapsburg era up on a mountain that has been converted to a
public building with a restaurant.  You have to take a little choo-choo
train to get up there, and when you sit out on the veranda to take your
midday meal, you can view the entire town of Linz, which has been developed
over time, but remains in the style of that era.  You feel like a king up
there, and the waitstaff treated me like one for some reason.  Maybe they do
it for everyone, I don't know.  If you are in the neighborhood, you should
definitely check it out at any time of the year, but if I were anywhere near
this during the time of the Ars Electronica, I would be there.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 17:48:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Horace wrote:


> At 4:37 PM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >Hamdi wrote:
> >>
> >> sic Using a coil with many turns will pick up from the Geomagnetic Field
> >>
> >EMF =      v*B*L*n
> >
> >v = velocity (meters/second)
> >B =  5.0E-5   (Tesla)
> >L = (Pi)*winding diameter   (turn length meters)
> >n = the number of turns on the coil
> >
> >For example:
> >Moving a coil 0.1 meters diameter with 100 turns at 1.0 meters/second in the
> >Earth's B field:
> >
> >1.0 * 5.0E-5 * 0.314*100 =  31.40E-5  = 0.314 millivolts
> >
> >Hardly enough to account for the resistance effect noted, Hamdi.  :-)
> 
> 
> Uh... there should be no voltage induced by lateral motion of a coil in the
> earth's magnetic field, because one side of the loop cancels the other.
> Only rotational motion should induce a voltage, or possibly a fluctuating
> geomagnetic or other ambient magnetic field.

Who's talking lateral movement, Horace?

The Geomagnetic Field lines lie in a North-South horizonal plane. When you
move the leads in a circle about a vertical axis or in a circle about a horizonal axis
you are cutting the Geomagnetic Field Lines as well as the Magnetogravity Field
lines, "B" = uo* I*r/R^2  ~ =  uo * 1.54E23/2 * (6.38E6)^2 ~ = 2,385 Tesla!
> 
> It apears my DMM applies about 6 millivolts across 5 Megohms when measuring
> the resistance, so 0.315 millivolts is a lot.

Of course. The example given was to illustrate how fast you must move the
coil/leads to generate a signal from interaction with the Geomagnetic Field.

You're missing the point that when the coil/leads are quiet you get the EM pick up
from the Universe. But when you rapidly MOVE the coil/leads you get a different
type of signal. And Without ANY CURRENT flowing in the coil/leads and Movement
ALL YOU GET is Electrical Noise. Naturally.  

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 6:26 PM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 4:34 PM
>Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
>
>Horace wrote:
>
>
>> At 4:37 PM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>> >Hamdi wrote:
>> >>
>> >> sic Using a coil with many turns will pick up from the Geomagnetic Field
>> >>
>> >EMF =      v*B*L*n
>> >
>> >v = velocity (meters/second)
>> >B =  5.0E-5   (Tesla)
>> >L = (Pi)*winding diameter   (turn length meters)
>> >n = the number of turns on the coil
>> >
>> >For example:
>> >Moving a coil 0.1 meters diameter with 100 turns at 1.0 meters/second in the
>> >Earth's B field:
>> >
>> >1.0 * 5.0E-5 * 0.314*100 =  31.40E-5  = 0.314 millivolts
>> >
>> >Hardly enough to account for the resistance effect noted, Hamdi.  :-)
>>
>>
>> Uh... there should be no voltage induced by lateral motion of a coil in the
>> earth's magnetic field, because one side of the loop cancels the other.
>> Only rotational motion should induce a voltage, or possibly a fluctuating
>> geomagnetic or other ambient magnetic field.
>
>Who's talking lateral movement, Horace?


I should have said linear, but lateral works too.



>
>The Geomagnetic Field lines lie in a North-South horizonal plane.


Actually, where I am, there is a pretty good dip to the field.    8^)



>When you
>move the leads in a circle about a vertical axis or in a circle about a
>horizonal axis
>you are cutting the Geomagnetic Field Lines


The front and back of the coil cut at the same rate, thus no net emf.


>as well as the Magnetogravity Field
>lines, "B" = uo* I*r/R^2  ~ =  uo * 1.54E23/2 * (6.38E6)^2 ~ = 2,385 Tesla!
>>
>> It apears my DMM applies about 6 millivolts across 5 Megohms when measuring
>> the resistance, so 0.315 millivolts is a lot.
>
>Of course. The example given was to illustrate how fast you must move the
>coil/leads to generate a signal from interaction with the Geomagnetic Field.
>
>You're missing the point that when the coil/leads are quiet you get the EM
>pick up
>from the Universe. But when you rapidly MOVE the coil/leads you get a different
>type of signal. And Without ANY CURRENT flowing in the coil/leads and Movement
>ALL YOU GET is Electrical Noise. Naturally.


That was not my experience.  I generated predictable repeatable voltage of
about 6 mV ON THE 200 mV SCALE OF THE DMM (NOT RESISTANCE METER.)  No
pre-supplied current necessary.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Horace wrote:


> At 6:26 PM 8/29/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> >When you
> >move the leads in a circle about a vertical axis or in a circle about a
> >horizonal axis
> >you are cutting the Geomagnetic Field Lines
> 
> The front and back of the coil cut at the same rate, thus no net emf.
> 
According to that statement Electric Motors and Generators don't work.  :-)
> 
> I generated predictable repeatable voltage of
> about 6 mV ON THE 200 mV SCALE OF THE DMM (NOT RESISTANCE METER.)  No
> pre-supplied current necessary.

Yes if you do it next to a powerful magnet. At least that's wahat you posted the other day.

Regards,   Frederick 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 19:58:08 2000
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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That's at least two of us who don't know how an electret microphone works.
I've thought about it, but I don't see why ions from the atmosphere
wouldn't be drawn to the electret surface and neutralize the its
polarization in a rather short time. Even if there were an insulating
coating, no insulator is so perfect that it could keep out charge for
years, at least as far as I know. If nothing else, cosmic rays liberate a
few free electrons in insulators.


--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> Nope.  It causes the appearance of oppositely-charged capacitor plates
> made of ions.  The field will be strong between the electrode and the
> layer of ions, and very weak on the other side of the ions.  One thing in
> your favor is the fact that the electret in an electrostatic microphone
> lasts for years.  Either contaminating ions never build up in the sealed
> container, or the microphone is somehow immune for other reasons.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 20:08:28 2000
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Subject: Re: Interesting site
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Hey! There is a picure of a trajectory (blue curve) on this site, under
"Energy by molecular motion," that looks like a magnetic line from an ultra
low aspect ratio tokamak (aka spherical tokamak). Maybe "wierd science" and
the vortex are converging with mainstream hot fusion! !! It warms my heart.

--- Robert Hoffmann <robert.hoffmann easynet.be> wrote:
> 
> http://www.evert.de/eft00e.htm


Sorry folks, I couldn't resist.



=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 20:19:40 2000
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--- Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was wondering what the various theories are to explain the self
> inductance 
> in Faraday's Disk...
> 
> Trying to develop a homopolar generator...
> Merlyn

The self inductance of a homopolar generator consists mainly the inductance
of the brushes and leads that conduct current to the disk. This inductance
depends on the details of the geometry you choose for them. Inductance of
the disk will be smaller. Both disk and in-machine leads inductances will
probably be much less than the inductance of the conductors you use to
connect the generator to some load. So, the self inductance of the
generator might not be very important. Can you be more specific about what
you want to do?

The requisite theory is the same as used to calculate any other
inductance---Ampere's and Faraday's laws. These can be condensed into a
single equation, due to Gauss, I think, for the specific limited purpose of
inductance calculation. In most real systems the geometry is sufficiently
complicated that the actual calculation is difficult, and one must use
either intelligent approximations and/or a computer to crunch numbers out
of Ampere and Faraday.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 21:21:55 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:13:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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In a message dated 8/29/00 12:32:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

> Hamdi,
>  
>  Could you describe how you are measuring?  Do you have an actual multi-turn
>  coil?  What is the resistance of your coil?  Are you actually measuring
>  resistance or just current?  Are you using a digital or analog resistance
>  meter?
>  
>  Regards,
>  
>  Horace Heffner          
>  
>  

Horace,

Well I can state how I measured it. 5 foot multimeter leads shorted together
measured 2.4 ohms. When I twirled the leads in a vertical plane the reading 
jumped between 2.3 and 2.6 ohms. Didn't matter if the plane of rotation was 
north/south or east west. Did not try in a horizontal plane.
Also didn't matter if I was in my garage or ~50 feet from my house in the 
backyard.
There are no above ground power lines closer than 1.5 miles from my house, and
no underground lines within about 100 feet other than the house service which 
I
shut down for the test.
Also the multimeter leads were new. Got same readings from Fluke and 
Radio Shack meters. (both digital) There was no reading when the meters
were switched to the most sensitive millivolt scale.
Puzzling...you bet!  

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 21:53:13 2000
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Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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Bill writes:
>Side topic: this "electrospray" may have been the stimulus which led to
>Tesla's infamous death ray.  He accelerated charged tungsten microclusters
>with a few DC megavolts in a vacuum, producing a "beam"  which was
>incredibly thin, but which delivered many watts to the tiny target area. 
>He claimed that he could slice up aircraft from over 100 miles distance. 
>If this was real, a better use would be as a tool.  Think about water-jet
>cutters and CNC industrial lasers.  Bandsaws with a really narrow saw
>kerf.  Make a "dremel tool" version.  Whittle tree trunks freehand, not
>with a chainsaw, but with a Tesla Death Ray generator. 

Better hope these guys don't find out about it.;)

http://members.tripod.com/~mrpuzuzu/plan.html

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 29 23:04:37 2000
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hehe,
somehow, mj has started receiving the russian space agencies daily
newsletter.if anyone wants the url i'll give it out.
MJ

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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:20:14 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> An unusual 0.043 Hz signal was observed by me here in Palmer, Alaska, at
> about 1 PM ADT (Alaska Daylight Time), which I believe is 8 hours ahead of
> Greenwich, giving the time as about 21:00Z, Aug 8, 2000.  The signal lasted
> for about 5 to 10 minutes (unmeasured duration.)   It took me while to
> realize the signal was ambient, and not an artifact of an experiment in
> progress.

<snip>

Could be the Navy has added new low frequency "strings" to its
HAARP.  See:

http://elfrad.org/2000/haarp.htm

Do you have the capability to detect the 3.4 - 7 MHz carrier?

Also, this site has found a correlation between 0.02 - 0.04 Hertz
signals and earthquake activity.  See:

http://www.elfrad.net/Quake/Qinfo13.htm

Interestingly, we experienced an unusual earthquake in the
Atlanta area recently.  See:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/news/2000/08/30/quake_ajc.html

which seismologists attributed to much needed rainfall.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 07:33:32 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Message from Dept. of Clear Thinking, Micro Designs, Inc.
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Quotes from a PCWorld.com article describing "Internet appliance computers"
that have no floppy or hard disk:

	The devices tend to be small. Most cost under $300, plus monthly
	ISP charges, making them ideal for beginners or as PC
	supplements. However, if an appliance was your only computing
	device, its limited features could frustrate you.  . . .

	MicroDesign Resources' Peter Glaskowsky believes that Internet
	appliances' lack of a hard drive can actually be a benefit.
	"It's secure," he says. "You don't have to worry about leaving
	personal data on the machine, because it can't hold any." 

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 08:09:31 2000
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:05:48 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Electrostatic field nano-distiller
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>At 9:57 AM 8/29/0, thomas malloy wrote:
>>I noticed a posting a few days back in which someone gave the
>>specifications for what I thought was a super efficient distiller. I
>>take it that this has been a theoretical discussion about how such a
>>machine might be built using nanotechnology.
>
>
>More than just a theoretical discussion I hope.  More of a pulic disclosure
>of various untested designs conjured up to facilitate creative discussion.

If it were possible to build such a machine it would do wonders for the deserts

>
>
>>
>>Steve Beaty's last posting about how the hairs on a leaf might
>>produce such an effect reminds me that the Sonic Bloom man, Dan
>>Carlson, reports that plants treated with his foliar feed and exposed
>>to the sonic chirping survive better in a drought than non treated
>>plants because they water them selves from the dew.
>
>
>Do you have any more information about how the "foliar feed" and chiping
>assist the watering from the dew?  Is this somehow fiber related?  It
>sounds like Carlson's method might be more related to getting the deposited
>dew into the plant, as opposed to increasing the amount of dew condensed on
>the plant.
>
>This does bring to mind the powerful dew accumulating ability of spider
>webs and geranium stems.
>
>Regards,

Dan Carlson is a friend of a friend. He sells Sonic Bloom, a foliar 
feed and a tape of bird chirps. I'll get contact information and post 
it

Thomas


>
>Horace Heffner

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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:12:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote:
>  
> 
> Horace,
> 
> Well I can state how I measured it. 5 foot multimeter leads shorted together
> measured 2.4 ohms. When I twirled the leads in a vertical plane the reading 
> jumped between 2.3 and 2.6 ohms. Didn't matter if the plane of rotation was 
> north/south or east west. Did not try in a horizontal plane.
....
> Puzzling...you bet!  
> 

How were the leads shorted together? Alligator
clips? Twisting? Soldering? Couldn't spinning the rig change the resistance of
the "short"?

--Lynn 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 10:47:53 2000
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Hi All,
   Well as long as I was at it I thought I'd try to find the Chinese
Space agency. No luck, but I did find the chinese government's website.
It's mostly censored out of course and the balance is in chinese but if
anyone is interested in looking for more info on chinese science I'm
sure that would be the place to start. I for one would like to know if
they are REALLY interested in Dingles water car technology. There IS a
working email for them on the site. It is:govonline chinascape.cn.net
MJ
URl: http://www.gov.cn/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 11:55:47 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:54:12 EDT
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & A Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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In a message dated 8/30/00 10:17:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kurtz imap2.asu.edu writes:

> How were the leads shorted together? Alligator
>  clips? Twisting? Soldering? Couldn't spinning the rig change the 
resistance 
> of
>  the "short"?
>  
>  --Lynn 
>  
Alligator clips, clipped together. Yes, a soldered connection would be
better but I did this as a quickie, not controlled at all, while on thephone 
with Fred.
The connection was mechanically solid and I tried to keep the rotation
smooth but there is a possibility of the clips moving and causing 
resistance changes.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 12:29:07 2000
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Story is available in Adobe format here;
http://www.stuartenergy.com/
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 13:24:29 2000
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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:14:40 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

I superposed probe pins together and tight them by many turns of copper wire. i think such a contact can pass several tens of amps without heating. As you know, the thin probe wires worn quickly and produce discontinuities. These break-ups ,maybe hundreds
, are not noticed until no single conductor left to pass the current. Bur before failing probes become sensitive to movements, and resistance increase. Also probes may suffer from soldering resistances. normally current pass four times trough probes These
 may not be ignored below 0.5 - 0.1 ohm measurements.

Regards, hamdi


Lynn Kurtz wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Horace,
> >
> > Well I can state how I measured it. 5 foot multimeter leads shorted together
> > measured 2.4 ohms. When I twirled the leads in a vertical plane the reading
> > jumped between 2.3 and 2.6 ohms. Didn't matter if the plane of rotation was
> > north/south or east west. Did not try in a horizontal plane.
> ....
> > Puzzling...you bet!
> >
> 
> How were the leads shorted together? Alligator
> clips? Twisting? Soldering? Couldn't spinning the rig change the resistance of
> the "short"?
> 
> --Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 13:59:47 2000
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Hi Horace,

According your setup of high impedance, you may captured electrical field component of the ELF rather than the magnetic one. So if you continue to try to monitor the signal, you may simultaneously monitor it with a dipole and a large inductance coil. But 
the source and the presence of the signal is unknown, you can not give away from the original setup, unless you catch the signal.

Interestingly, I feel there is a possibility that you may get the signal no matter you choose a different setup. For example, may the signal is on the main power. Or very strange kind of airborne signal that affect scope electronics.

A magnetometer.. is it easy to build one?

Regards, hamdi



Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> An unusual 0.043 Hz signal was observed by me here in Palmer, Alaska, at
> about 1 PM ADT (Alaska Daylight Time), which I believe is 8 hours ahead of
> Greenwich, giving the time as about 21:00Z, Aug 8, 2000.  The signal lasted
> for about 5 to 10 minutes (unmeasured duration.)   It took me while to
> realize the signal was ambient, and not an artifact of an experiment in
> progress.
> 
> The signal was detected using a triangular coil of wire about 1 foot on a
> side and containing 40 turns of No. 24 wire.  The coil was laid flat on a
> table.  The circuit contained a DMM (turned off) on the 200 mV scale in
> series with the coil and a 10 Megohm resistor, and a Tek TDS 220 scope in
> parallel with the DMM.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 19:13:47 2000
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>Hi All,
>   Well as long as I was at it I thought I'd try to find the Chinese
>Space agency. No luck, but I did find the chinese government's website.
>It's mostly censored out of course and the balance is in chinese but if
>anyone is interested in looking for more info on chinese science I'm
>sure that would be the place to start. I for one would like to know if
>they are REALLY interested in Dingles water car technology. There IS a
>working email for them on the site. It is:govonline chinascape.cn.net
>MJ
>URl: http://www.gov.cn/

If anyone inquires, you might want to see if they had any luck with the
Potapov device as well.  Potapov was supposed to have been contracted to
make a couple of hundred thousand of his devices for them, but we never
heard if he actually delivered.  The Brown's Gas generator is being
manufactured over there too, and according to Todd Knudson, the quality of
manufacturing had greatly improved over the first models.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Jed writes:

>	MicroDesign Resources' Peter Glaskowsky believes that Internet
>	appliances' lack of a hard drive can actually be a benefit.
>	"It's secure," he says. "You don't have to worry about leaving
>	personal data on the machine, because it can't hold any." 
>
>- Jed

I wonder how much Glaskowsky gets paid to write this kind of retarded nonsense?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Curious signal
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At 11:57 PM 8/30/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>According your setup of high impedance, you may captured electrical field
>component of the ELF rather than the magnetic one. So if you continue to
>try to monitor the signal, you may simultaneously monitor it with a dipole
>and a large inductance coil. But the source and the presence of the signal
>is unknown, you can not give away from the original setup, unless you
>catch the signal.
>
>Interestingly, I feel there is a possibility that you may get the signal
>no matter you choose a different setup. For example, may the signal is on
>the main power. Or very strange kind of airborne signal that affect scope
>electronics.
>
>A magnetometer.. is it easy to build one?
>
>Regards, hamdi


Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
the lines of the way my house is grounded.  Utilities are underground in my
neighborhood.  There is a standard grounding stake near the power drop at
my house, which I think is fairly ineffectual, but, by Alaska code, the
system is also grounded to the water system, which is 1" pipe to a well
located about 60 m away.  The well drops about 30 m to the water table,
where it is effectively grounded.  I live on a glacial morain made up
mostly of gravel and clay. In the USA we have a 4 wire system, two isolated
power loops from the power transformer to the house, consisting a separate
neutral wire, center tapped to the secondary, and the two power leads form
the ends of the secondary coil.  I am thinking the coil is both
capacitively and inductive linked to the power wiring in the house, which
surrounds the coil.  The scope uses the ground wire for its reference
ground.   The power transformer is located right next to the well, and I
thus is at least nearly grounded to it.  The copper water lines return to
the well along a path different from the power, thus there is a very big
ground loop antenna in the ground near my house.  The scope thus picks up a
signal from the coil that represents the voltage difference, possibly
somewhat out of phase, between the house wiring and ground.

To check this hypothesis I simply attached one probe to the neutral wire
and compared that signal shape to the coil signal.  There was a similar
signal profile, with regard to the low frequency stuff, but not an exactly
matching profile.  It is possible there is more to it than this, but I
think that is a clue.  I think perhaps the utility distribution network as
a whole may be involved.  Somehow tiny low frequency fluctuations in the
network supplied peak voltage ends up as a comparatively large signal in my
scope.  I also tried attaching one probe to the live 120 V supply, and the
profile of the peaks of the voltage followed the coil peak profile fairly
well.  I don't know why there would be a demand to the system that starts
out as 0.2 Hz and eventually decays to 0.01 Hz over a period of a half hour
or so, and tends to start on the hour or half hour.  Could be something to
do with HAARP, which is up the road about 120 miles.  I know it is not due
to the Alaska State Fair rides, which are a mile away, because the signals
persisted last night periodically, even after the fair shut down.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 30 20:40:40 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Curious signal
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Horace writes:
>Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
>the lines of the way my house is grounded.

Hi Horace,

I know that a scope is a measuring tool that amps a signal, processes it and
displays it, etc., but I'm wondering if this signal that you are picking up
would not manifest itself in a lot of other electrical appliances as well.
It seems like maybe a TV tube or a flourescent lamp or maybe even an
incandescent lamp would "communicate" this same signal even if very faintly.
Is that a possibility, do you think?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 01:26:10 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Curious signal
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At 11:36 PM 8/30/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>Horace writes:
>>Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
>>the lines of the way my house is grounded.
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>I know that a scope is a measuring tool that amps a signal, processes it and
>displays it, etc., but I'm wondering if this signal that you are picking up
>would not manifest itself in a lot of other electrical appliances as well.
>It seems like maybe a TV tube or a flourescent lamp or maybe even an
>incandescent lamp would "communicate" this same signal even if very faintly.
>Is that a possibility, do you think?


I am not sure what you mean.  Do you mean I should hook my scope to an
appliance?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 04:39:12 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Curious signal
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Horace writes:
>I am not sure what you mean.  Do you mean I should hook my scope to an
>appliance?
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

Well, sort of I guess, but at those frequencies, even a DMM might work with
a good sampling frequency.  The point that I was wondering about was that
since there are inductors in many appliances, that the signal would be on
all of them if you were picking up something that was broadcast through the
ground.  The light from an incandescent bulb for example, would modulate
with the signal very faintly, and you would only be able to measure the
difference with a very sensitive photocell.  A grounded DC lamp would show
it better, perhaps.  It would be too faint for you to consciously detect.
That was my wondering, but there is probably something major missing in my
general knowledge of all things electrical that would prohibit this, or?

I just remember that whenever there were load shifts on the Bear, that the
lights would visibly dim until the genset caught up to the load, and any
kind of signal like what you are describing would be caused by the same type
of thing.  If someone were to load the grid substantially at a given
frequency, the result would be that the lights would dim imperceptibly at
that frequency as well.  All appliances would act more or less the same, I
think, and at low frequencies, it would constitute messaging or "massaging"
of a sort, if you get my drift.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 07:09:40 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Message from Dept. of Clear Thinking, Micro Designs, Inc.
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>>	MicroDesign Resources' Peter Glaskowsky believes that Internet
>>	appliances' lack of a hard drive can actually be a benefit.
>>	"It's secure," he says. "You don't have to worry about leaving
>>	personal data on the machine, because it can't hold any." 

>I wonder how much Glaskowsky gets paid to write this kind of retarded
>nonsense?

Don't be so harsh on the poor man. He is a salesman doing his job and
following the cardinal rule of marketing: When they hand you a lemon, make
lemonade. Emphasize the positive! When a CF experiment fails to produce
heat, you don't say, "we blew it and we don't know why." You say, "this
reduces the parameter space and eliminates several possible development
paths, focusing future experiments on more promising techniques."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 08:26:11 2000
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From: "Pierre.CLAUZON" <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Energy amplifier
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:20:03 +0200
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Dear John Schnurer,
I have problems to answer you directly (3 trials without success). This is
why  use Vortex .
Best regards          Pierre Clauzon

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----- Original Message -----
From: Pierre.CLAUZON <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Cc: Jean_de_Lagarde <jlagarde nwc.fr>; Jean-Louis NAUDIN
<JNaudin509 aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: "Energy amplifier"


> Dear John Schnurer,
>
> Sorry to be late for my answer.. I did get your messages, but I was in
> vacation with my grand-children...
>
> In order to improve the nuclear reactor safety and in particular to avoid
> what we call the "nuclear excursion" (in french, "l'excursion
nucléaire" ),
> one has imagined to operate reactors in subcritical mode in order to avoid
> accidents of this type. The last physicist to promote this old idea is the
> Nobel prize Carlo Rubbia from the CERN.
> In the normal case, when the reactor is critical ,i.e. the multiplication
> factor of the neutrons is equal to 1.000, the reactor operator can choose
> the power level as he wants and, of course, this level must match the
> thermal capability of the reactor.
> In the case of the so-called "energy amplifier", the reactor is
> sub-critical, i. e. the multiplication factor is below 1.000- let's say
for
> exemple  k= 0.900- .In that case, the reactor operator must have at his
> disposal a neutron source S , because with a multiplication factor <
1.000,
> the power goes naturally to zero with no neutron source. With a source S,
> the reactor power will be proportional to  S + kS + k*kS +...= S/(1-k) .
> This source is given by an accelerator device, but in any case for the
time
> being , this source level cannot be very high... So, the only way to
> increase the power is to increase sufficiently the worth of k. since P is
> proportional to 1/(1-k)... But, if you do so, the safety characteristics
of
> this device become very close to those of an ordinary reactor and then you
> have to pay for the same safety features ( control rods,
containment,.etc..)
> with in addition to that the expensive cost of an accelerator...
>
> I hope to be convincing... Thank you for your interest..I think that the
> only way to fight the global warming of our planet (see the artic
meltdown)
> is to promote the nuclear energy.. but , of course, I will be very happy
if
> the cold fusion or the ZPE research succeed rapidly...
>
> Best regards      Pierre  Clauzon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Pierre.CLAUZON <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>
> Cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: "Energy amplifier"
>
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Pierre Clauzon,
> >
> > I too am devoted to physics or the 'hard science' kind.
> >
> > Can you please let me know what is being talked about when the
> > topis is "Energy Amplifer"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John Schnurer
> >
>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 08:51:45 2000
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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:46:40 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Fran de Aquino's Papers
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***{Here are some interesting comments posted by Gordon Pusch over on
sci.physics.fusion. Enjoy. --MJ}***

> Slack Man Down <blazeg my-deja.com> writes:
>
> > Can you tell me where the papers are on the Los Alamos website?
>
> Same as any other paper --- go to http://www.arXiv.org/, click on 'find',
> de-select the default categories and years, and select all categories
> andall  years for author 'de Aquino'.
>
> You will find, however, that despite VCockeram's claims that de Aquino's
> papers have been ``peer reviewed'' and are ``rigorous correct,'' the
> ``peers'' must have been pretty darned incompetent, because the papers
> are ALL obvious crap...
>
> In particular, de Aquino:
>
> 1.)  Confuses the ``effective'' mass of a particle immersed in a thermal
>bath
>    of radiation with its physical inertial and gravitational masses;
>
> 2.)  Applies approximate formulae derived for particles in a thermal bath
>   as if they were exact, to situations outside their domain of validity;
>
> 3.)  Assumes these approximate thermal-bath formulae still apply even to
>    particles in a _MONOCHROMATIC_ radiation field;
>
> 4.)  Assumes that the continuum macroscopic-averaged Maxwell's equations
>   for a _macroscopic_ dissipative medium may still be used all the way down
>   to the _MICROSCOPIC_ level, even down to individual electrons and nuclei.
>   I.e., he effectively assumes that it is _SPACE ITSELF_ that has the
>   resistivity, permittivity and permeability of the macroscopic medium,
>   all the way down to arbitrarily small distance-scales, rather than these
>   merely being macroscopic averages over many atoms that break down near
>   molecular scales. (One must assume he paid absolutely no attention when
>   the Clausius-Mossotti relation between the macroscopic and microscopic
>   fields was being discussed...)
>
> These are only a short list of some of the *worst* errors de Aquino has
>made;
> I could go on, there are plenty of other errors, but do I really need to ???
> Suffice it to say that de Aquino's papers are not even worth the electrons
> in the bits that are storing them...
>
> -- Gordon D. Pusch
>
> perl -e '$_ = "gdpusch\ NO.xnet.SPAM.com\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 09:48:15 2000
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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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>From the article cited (at =
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns225323":

>Lenton believes bacteria do this by seeding clouds with ice crystals,
>which grow into raindrops. Some species, such as Pseudomonas
>syringae, grow ice crystals around themselves by exuding chemicals
>that encourage supercooled water to freeze. These plant pathogens
>may have evolved this ability to promote frost damage on leaves, but
>colonies living in clouds could do the same. "If the bacteria are =
active
>they are more likely to be a cause of precipitation," says Lenton.=20

This is not really new knowledge. Around 1987 a biotech company (or was =
it U.C. Berkeley?) proposed to field-test a genetically engineered form =
of Pseudomonas syringae, that would lower the temperature at which frost =
formed on strawberries. There was opposition due to concerns about that =
bacteria getting into the atmosphere, changing rainfall, and thus =
climate. The test was eventually approved and carried out, so those =
modified bacteria are now presumably in the environment.=20

Dan Quickert

-----Original Message-----
From:	William Beaty=20
Sent:	Monday, August 28, 2000 12:26 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Life in the clouds (fwd)


See below.  Hey, in the Black Smoker vents in the mid-atlantic ridge,
aren't bacteria part of an entire food chain?  The possibility of
transparent "aerogel sky creatures" just got a boost I think.=20

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) =
)))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST =
website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird =
science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L =
webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:17:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brad A. Pierce" <bapkoh netcom.com>
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: Life in the clouds


   http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns225323

-- Brad

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 10:34:25 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Dan -

What really pisses me off and urges me towards activism in this area 
is that some British *******s have figured out a way to genetically 
engineer coffee beans to grow without caffein. Yet another disaster 
waiting to get loose. This stuff is all going to end in tears I'm 
telling you - if they let us keep our tear glands that is.  ;(

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>This is not really new knowledge. Around 1987 a biotech company (or 
>was it U.C. Berkeley?) proposed to field-test a genetically 
>engineered form of Pseudomonas syringae, that would lower the 
>temperature at which frost formed on strawberries. There was 
>opposition due to concerns about that bacteria getting into the 
>atmosphere, changing rainfall, and thus climate. The test was 
>eventually approved and carried out, so those modified bacteria are 
>now presumably in the environment.
>
>Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 11:11:45 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Message from Dept. of Clear Thinking, Micro Designs, Inc.
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Jed writes:
>Don't be so harsh on the poor man. He is a salesman doing his job and
>following the cardinal rule of marketing: When they hand you a lemon, make
>lemonade. Emphasize the positive! When a CF experiment fails to produce
>heat, you don't say, "we blew it and we don't know why." You say, "this
>reduces the parameter space and eliminates several possible development
>paths, focusing future experiments on more promising techniques."
>
>- Jed

Don't see anything positive in a web computing appliance, nor do I see
anything positive in lying about the security of such a thing.  The guy
should call it a doorstop, and be done with it.  I hate phoney salesmen.
They con good people out of their hard earned money, and laugh at them.
Emphasize that.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Hmm. 

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 12:07:13 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Curious signal
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At 7:38 AM 8/31/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>If someone were to load the grid substantially at a given
>frequency, the result would be that the lights would dim imperceptibly at
>that frequency as well.  All appliances would act more or less the same, I
>think, and at low frequencies, it would constitute messaging or "massaging"
>of a sort, if you get my drift.


To check out this hypothesis I connected the DMM to the house wiring
independently from the oscilloscope.  The DMM was connected between the
power lead and the ground lead. The voltage reamined failry steady at about
122.6 V.  On one occasion it dipped to 121.6 V, but for the most part
remained at 128.7 +- 0.2 V.  There was no relation between the fluctuations
in line voltage as measured by the DMM vs the coil voltage measured by
oscilloscope.

Of possible aside interest, I switched the DMM to DC to see if I could pick
up a slowly varying signal and did see such, but it did not correlate with
the oscilloscope either.  The power line varied from 0 V to +0.05 V DC with
respect to ground, and fluctuated maybe somewhere around 0.2 Hz, but also
appeared to be a bit random.

These measurements pretty well shoot down any ideas I had about the source
of the signal, and is not consistent with the idea that grid load is
related.  There must be something wrong with my scope?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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	Very low F signals should be eaxmined for aliasing..if digital
methods are used... and the 1/f noise corner in modern op amps is usually
3 cps or higher... long period signal work is demanding.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:57 PM 8/30/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >Hi Horace,
> >
> >According your setup of high impedance, you may captured electrical field
> >component of the ELF rather than the magnetic one. So if you continue to
> >try to monitor the signal, you may simultaneously monitor it with a dipole
> >and a large inductance coil. But the source and the presence of the signal
> >is unknown, you can not give away from the original setup, unless you
> >catch the signal.
> >
> >Interestingly, I feel there is a possibility that you may get the signal
> >no matter you choose a different setup. For example, may the signal is on
> >the main power. Or very strange kind of airborne signal that affect scope
> >electronics.
> >
> >A magnetometer.. is it easy to build one?
> >
> >Regards, hamdi
> 
> 
> Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
> the lines of the way my house is grounded.  Utilities are underground in my
> neighborhood.  There is a standard grounding stake near the power drop at
> my house, which I think is fairly ineffectual, but, by Alaska code, the
> system is also grounded to the water system, which is 1" pipe to a well
> located about 60 m away.  The well drops about 30 m to the water table,
> where it is effectively grounded.  I live on a glacial morain made up
> mostly of gravel and clay. In the USA we have a 4 wire system, two isolated
> power loops from the power transformer to the house, consisting a separate
> neutral wire, center tapped to the secondary, and the two power leads form
> the ends of the secondary coil.  I am thinking the coil is both
> capacitively and inductive linked to the power wiring in the house, which
> surrounds the coil.  The scope uses the ground wire for its reference
> ground.   The power transformer is located right next to the well, and I
> thus is at least nearly grounded to it.  The copper water lines return to
> the well along a path different from the power, thus there is a very big
> ground loop antenna in the ground near my house.  The scope thus picks up a
> signal from the coil that represents the voltage difference, possibly
> somewhat out of phase, between the house wiring and ground.
> 
> To check this hypothesis I simply attached one probe to the neutral wire
> and compared that signal shape to the coil signal.  There was a similar
> signal profile, with regard to the low frequency stuff, but not an exactly
> matching profile.  It is possible there is more to it than this, but I
> think that is a clue.  I think perhaps the utility distribution network as
> a whole may be involved.  Somehow tiny low frequency fluctuations in the
> network supplied peak voltage ends up as a comparatively large signal in my
> scope.  I also tried attaching one probe to the live 120 V supply, and the
> profile of the peaks of the voltage followed the coil peak profile fairly
> well.  I don't know why there would be a demand to the system that starts
> out as 0.2 Hz and eventually decays to 0.01 Hz over a period of a half hour
> or so, and tends to start on the hour or half hour.  Could be something to
> do with HAARP, which is up the road about 120 miles.  I know it is not due
> to the Alaska State Fair rides, which are a mile away, because the signals
> persisted last night periodically, even after the fair shut down.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 13:05:56 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:03:05 EDT
Subject: BLP
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>From HSG:

Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 30 Aug 00 17:42:54 -0400
   From: "Dr. Randell L. Mills" <blp41 earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New BLP website

Shane Wilson  wrote:

>Thank you Dr Mills for making CQM-GUT available gratis to internet 
>users. The new site format is easy to navigate. One disappointment is 
>an apparent lack of focus on the hydrino compounds, although the 
>battery project relies on them. This may reflect the interests of 
>BLP's financial backers. If the compounds do contain hydrogen in 
>hydrino electronic states, their examination would be the fastest 
>route to widespread acceptance of the hydrino hypothesis.  
>Conversely, the results of such testing might put a nail in the 
>coffin of the hypothesis. X-ray crystallography should show unusually 
>short H-M bond lengths if hydrinos are present in the compounds. 
>Therefore, this technique would be useful in the examination of  
>BLP's claims. It would also detect the presence of polymeric 
>hydrogen; something that has been suggested for some of the hydrino 
>compounds. 


There are several papers at our web site that give extensive 
characterization of novel hydride compounds.  We are more interested in 
neutron diffraction than X-ray since it is very difficult to observe 
hydrogen by X-ray.  The NMR work is consistent with shorter internuclear 
distances which could be conform by neutron diffraction.  We have several 
proposal in progress, but haven't been able to get time on an instrument 
to date.  If you want to study the compounds, we could provide some 
samples.

Randell L. Mills MD


  Vince
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 13:17:49 2000
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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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	"Electrolyzed water is highly acidic, contains chlorine and has
	high oxidation potential. This chemical combination holds the key
	to its effectiveness, said Hung, and he wants to determine the
	exact role of each component."

How can electrolyzed water contain chlorine?  Where did that come
from?

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 1:16 PM
Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/

He says he adds a small quantity of NaCl  (table salt). The Electrolysis
of NaCl under the right condition doesn't give off H2 and Cl2, but
forms HCl ,  HClO etc.

FJs


> "Electrolyzed water is highly acidic, contains chlorine and has
> high oxidation potential. This chemical combination holds the key
> to its effectiveness, said Hung, and he wants to determine the
> exact role of each component."
> 
> How can electrolyzed water contain chlorine?  Where did that come
> from?
> 
> Joe
> -- 
> Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
> Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
> Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 13:53:05 2000
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This article is unclear to me. The water he is using is saline electrolyte,
correct? It has been subjected to some (undescribed) degree of
electrolysis, and then used elsewhere.

Or does this mean they put the dishes in the water and then apply the
electrolysis current?

I vaugly recall a claim from Russia, the used electrolyte had remarkable
medical properties.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 14:41:03 2000
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Subject: Re: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/
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On Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 02:34:54PM -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 1:16 PM
> Subject: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/
> 
> He says he adds a small quantity of NaCl  (table salt). The Electrolysis
> of NaCl under the right condition doesn't give off H2 and Cl2, but
> forms HCl ,  HClO etc.
> 
> FJs

Ahha!  :)  I missed that bit. Thanks.
Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 14:51:23 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/

Jed wrote:


> This article is unclear to me. The water he is using is saline electrolyte,
> correct? It has been subjected to some (undescribed) degree of
> electrolysis, and then used elsewhere.

The article says that you electrolyze the saline water and "rinse foods right as it pours out
from the unit".
>
> Or does this mean they put the dishes in the water and then apply the
> electrolysis current?

No.
>
> I vaugly recall a claim from Russia, the used electrolyte had remarkable
> medical properties.

Beats Chlorox,  I guess.

Regards,     Frederick
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 15:00:50 2000
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Subject: Re: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>He says he adds a small quantity of NaCl  (table salt). The Electrolysis
>of NaCl under the right condition doesn't give off H2 and Cl2, but
>forms HCl ,  HClO etc.

Ah, I get it now that I see this message. You are saying the HCl is what
sterilizes. Could the gadget malfunction and start producing clorine gas
(Cl2), I wonder. That could be nasty. Maybe they install some kind of
alarm. Of course Chlorox can be pretty nasty too. I use it to clean the
bathroom walls, with the windows wide open and a fan blowing through.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 15:10:46 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: Curious signal
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Horce
	In the Manufactured home village I live in, the ground sheild on
the 1100v lines to the distribution transformers has corroded, and the
result is a potential of 5v between my neutral and the water pipe. One of
my neighbors had a 22v potential. NOT GOOD. We finally prevailed on our
landlord to do something about it. We are still awaiting final testing.
Thanks for reminding me, I will test it again this afternoon.

Hank

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:57 PM 8/30/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >Hi Horace,
> >
> >According your setup of high impedance, you may captured electrical field
> >component of the ELF rather than the magnetic one. So if you continue to
> >try to monitor the signal, you may simultaneously monitor it with a dipole
> >and a large inductance coil. But the source and the presence of the signal
> >is unknown, you can not give away from the original setup, unless you
> >catch the signal.
> >
> >Interestingly, I feel there is a possibility that you may get the signal
> >no matter you choose a different setup. For example, may the signal is on
> >the main power. Or very strange kind of airborne signal that affect scope
> >electronics.
> >
> >A magnetometer.. is it easy to build one?
> >
> >Regards, hamdi
> 
> 
> Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
> the lines of the way my house is grounded.  Utilities are underground in my
> neighborhood.  There is a standard grounding stake near the power drop at
> my house, which I think is fairly ineffectual, but, by Alaska code, the
> system is also grounded to the water system, which is 1" pipe to a well
> located about 60 m away.  The well drops about 30 m to the water table,
> where it is effectively grounded.  I live on a glacial morain made up
> mostly of gravel and clay. In the USA we have a 4 wire system, two isolated
> power loops from the power transformer to the house, consisting a separate
> neutral wire, center tapped to the secondary, and the two power leads form
> the ends of the secondary coil.  I am thinking the coil is both
> capacitively and inductive linked to the power wiring in the house, which
> surrounds the coil.  The scope uses the ground wire for its reference
> ground.   The power transformer is located right next to the well, and I
> thus is at least nearly grounded to it.  The copper water lines return to
> the well along a path different from the power, thus there is a very big
> ground loop antenna in the ground near my house.  The scope thus picks up a
> signal from the coil that represents the voltage difference, possibly
> somewhat out of phase, between the house wiring and ground.
> 
> To check this hypothesis I simply attached one probe to the neutral wire
> and compared that signal shape to the coil signal.  There was a similar
> signal profile, with regard to the low frequency stuff, but not an exactly
> matching profile.  It is possible there is more to it than this, but I
> think that is a clue.  I think perhaps the utility distribution network as
> a whole may be involved.  Somehow tiny low frequency fluctuations in the
> network supplied peak voltage ends up as a comparatively large signal in my
> scope.  I also tried attaching one probe to the live 120 V supply, and the
> profile of the peaks of the voltage followed the coil peak profile fairly
> well.  I don't know why there would be a demand to the system that starts
> out as 0.2 Hz and eventually decays to 0.01 Hz over a period of a half hour
> or so, and tends to start on the hour or half hour.  Could be something to
> do with HAARP, which is up the road about 120 miles.  I know it is not due
> to the Alaska State Fair rides, which are a mile away, because the signals
> persisted last night periodically, even after the fair shut down.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 15:17:27 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/

Jed wrote:


> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >He says he adds a small quantity of NaCl  (table salt). The Electrolysis
> >of NaCl under the right condition doesn't give off H2 and Cl2, but
> >forms HCl ,  HClO etc.
> 
> Ah, I get it now that I see this message. You are saying the HCl is what
> sterilizes. Could the gadget malfunction and start producing clorine gas
> (Cl2), I wonder. That could be nasty. 

My electrochemistry is not that great, but as long as the mix is "very dilute" and the
electrode potential is right, there should be little danger of H2 or Cl2 production.

Cl2 +  H2O <--->  HCl + HClO what is what you get in chlorinating water for
municiple use or your swimming pool. However, nHClO exposed to light gives off
O2.   :-)
> Maybe they install some kind of
> alarm. 
I'm sure that by the time the get FDA approval it will be a safe device, at least
safer than E. Coli, Salmonella, and Listeria.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 15:44:04 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CH4 storage
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:27:16 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Could methane-water (ice) clathrates be used to store methane on vehicles
instead of high pressure tanks, and would it yield any advantage?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 18:13:53 2000
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Program of JCF2 Meeting, October 21-22, 2000, at Academic Exchange Hall,
Hokkaido University, Sapporo, Japan

October 21, 2000

9:00 Opening Address
9:10 Electrolysis: Light Water (chairman: K. Ota, Yokohama N.U.)
9:10-9:35 JCF2-1 M. Fujii et al. (Yokohama N.U.): HEAT MEASUREMENT DURING
LIGHT WATER ELECTROLYSIS USING METAL RODS CATHODE
9:35-10:00 JCF2-2 R. Notoya (Hokkaido U.): Gamma-spectra Observation during
Electrolysis in a System of K2CO3 Light Water Solution/Pt Electrodes
10:00-10:25 JCF2-3 H. Yamada et al. (Iwate U.): Low Excess Heat Evolution
and Impurities Production in Light Water Electrolysis

--- break (15 min) ---

10:40 Electrolysis: Heavy Water (chairman: T. Mizuno, Hokkaido U.)
10:40-11:05 JCF2-4 K. Yabuta et al. (Osaka U.): Measurement of exces s heat
and nuclear products by using a closed D2O electrolysis system
11:05-11:30 JCF2-5 H. Kudo et al. (Yokohama N.U.): Precise heat measurement
of D2O electrolysis
11:30-11:55 JCF2-6 H. Numata (Tokyo Inst. Tech.): In situ Potentiometric,
Resistance, and Dilatometric Measurements of Palladium Electrodes During
Repeated Electrochemical Hydrogen Absorption

--- lunch (11:55-13:30) ---

13:30 Electrolysis: Plasma State (chairman: H. Yamada, Iwate U.)
13:30-13:55 JCF2-7 T. Ohishi et al. (Osaka U.): Studies on
Nuclear-Reaction-in-Solid Using Plasma Electrolysis
13:55-14:20 JCF2-8 T. Mizuno et al. (Hokkaido U.): Heat and other products
induced by plasma electrolysis
14:20-14:45 JCF2-9 T. Ohmori et al. (Hokkaido U.): The Nuclear
Transmutation Induced by a Plasma Electrolysis in Light Water Using
Tungsten and Rhenium Electrode

--- break (15 min) ---

15:00 Theory-1 (chairman: E. Yamaguchi, 21st C.E.P.R)
15:00-15:25 JCF2-10 A. Takahashi et al. (Osaka U.): POSSIBILITY OF
FISSION-PRODUCTS BY MULTI-PHOTON EXCITATION PROCESS FOR A>100 NUCLEI
15:25-15:50 JCF2-11 M. Ohta et al. (Osaka U.): Analysis on fission of W, Au
and U by LEPF/SCF model
15:50-16:15 JCF2-12 N. Yabuuchi (Inst. High-Sci. Res.): Fusion and Fission
in metal
16:15-16:40 JCF2-13 M. Ohta et al. (Osaka U. and CFRL): Possible
Explanation of He-4 Production in Pd/D_{2} System by TNCF Model

16:40-17:10 JCF Annual Meeting

18:00-20:00 Reception

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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:02:42 -0500
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> What really pisses me off and urges me towards activism in this area
> is that some British *******s have figured out a way to genetically
> engineer coffee beans to grow without caffein. Yet another disaster
> waiting to get loose. 

Great. Well, fellow mad scientists, that is the end of the era of late
night, neighbor scaring experimentation. Without real coffee, we'll go
to bed at a decent hour, and what fun is that? 

Seriously though, do we really need to be tampering around with the
genetic code like this? As wonderfully cautious as most people are, we
are likely to produce something either useless or something absolutely
terrible. 

A little less seriously: Picture a creature with the combined attitudes
of Oscar the Grouch and Robert Park, the evil attributes of Khan, and
the appearance of Danny DeVito. This is not something I want to
encounter!

--Kyle R. Mcallister

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/08/31/electro.water.enn/
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:17:16 GMT
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On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:49:42 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>This article is unclear to me. The water he is using is saline electrolyte,
>correct? It has been subjected to some (undescribed) degree of
>electrolysis, and then used elsewhere.
>
>Or does this mean they put the dishes in the water and then apply the
>electrolysis current?
>
>I vaugly recall a claim from Russia, the used electrolyte had remarkable
>medical properties.

No mention is made of what type of electrodes are used.  If silver,
he's making colloidal silver.  (Other metals can be used to make other
colloids -- copper, gold and I assume some other noble metals.)

True colloidal silver is quite well known as a super-wide spectrum
antibiotic, antiviral and antifungal agent with no known side-effects.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 31 22:23:46 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:21:46 +1000
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:57:53 -0500:
[snip]
>Thank you for the reply Jed, but you ignored my main question, were 
>is the energy going, and how do we capture it?
[snip]
Possible answers:
1) There isn't any, because the purported reaction doesn't occur.
2) Light element fission &/or heavy element fusion is also taking place
which soaks up the "excess" energy. I.e. the real reaction is a shift
reaction where no net mass->energy conversion takes place, but a different
spread of elements results.
3) Neutrinos.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.