From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 02:29:40 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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At 4:21 PM 9/1/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:57:53 -0500:
>[snip]
>>Thank you for the reply Jed, but you ignored my main question, were
>>is the energy going, and how do we capture it?
>[snip]
>Possible answers:
>1) There isn't any, because the purported reaction doesn't occur.
>2) Light element fission &/or heavy element fusion is also taking place
>which soaks up the "excess" energy. I.e. the real reaction is a shift
>reaction where no net mass->energy conversion takes place, but a different
>spread of elements results.
>3) Neutrinos.
>

Another possibility:

4) unknown and stable excited nuclear states exist.

How you capture it is the multi-billion dollar question.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 02:59:34 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: CH4 storage
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Robin writes:
>Hi,
>
>Could methane-water (ice) clathrates be used to store methane on vehicles
>instead of high pressure tanks, and would it yield any advantage?
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

Hi Robin,

That's a good question.  I would guess that it would depend on the number of
surrounding H2O molecules, and the total weight of the clathrate.  I did a
brief search for my text on this for Mitch Jones the other day which had all
those specifics, and couldn't find it, but from memory, the storage temp for
CH4 is around 50F, so a certain amount of refrigeration would be necessary
to keep that temp in many places in the world.  A tank of methane clathrate
could be allowed to melt if the resulting methane gas was used right away in
say, a fuel cell powered generator.  This would mean that in many coastal
areas above and below the right latitudes, the clathrate could be mined and
pumped via a pipeline to a land based generator before it had a chance to
melt off.

There was a pilot plant in Hawaii that Fred Jaeger of ENECO participated in
building, where they determined the net cost to benefit ratio of providing
fresh drinking water and fuel from the clathrate.  They were able to mine it
and pipe it to the generation plant in a timely fashion, even in Hawaii, so
it can be done.  It costed out fairly well too, as I recall, but it would
not compete with present electrical generation schemes at the current price
levels of that time.

If you do a search on the web, you should run across this study.  It was
government funded, and the report was available for free from the General
Printing Office.  I really wish I could find my copy, as it had a really
good introductory write up of many various clathrates with their
corresponding melting temps, methane to H2O molecular ratios, and various
other unique properties.  I recall that one of the clathrates studied
remained in an ice form up to temperatures just exceeding 70F.  There were
some interesting diaelectric properties mentioned.  They also reported on a
study done at Woods Hole that was similarly successful.  The idea was that
it could be mined in a cost effective manner using robot submarines, and
another study was done to evaluate the technologies that were commercially
available in that field in Europe, and the former Soviet Union.

The study concluded that there was enough methane on the ocean floor to
supply the needs of the entire world for thousands of years.  There was
concern over the environmental impact of the mining of the ocean floor, but
I guess that they even came up with solutions for that.  I heard this last
bit from someone on the FreeNRG list who had researched this to some degree
as well, so I didn't read it directly from the study.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 03:43:01 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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But don't trip over yourself chasing it. -Knuke


*******************************************************************
  E-WIRE PRESS RELEASE E-WIRE PRESS RELEASE E-WIRE PRESS RELEASE
*******************************************************************

TO CITY, ENVIRONMENTAL AND SCIENCE EDITORS:

                     Environmental Working Group Reports:
                              Give Us a Fake II:
                 Tobacco, Pesticide Lobbyists Disguise Attack
               On Public Interest Groups as a 'News' Conference

    WASHINGTON, Aug. 31 -/E-Wire/--  A coalition of lobbyists and hired
guns for the tobacco companies, as well as the chemical, pesticide, plastics,
chlorine and other industries, today released a fake report attacking public
health and safety activists for their efforts to protect people and the
environment from toxic chemicals and other health threats.  The report, which
specifically insulted Fenton Communications and the Environmental Working
Group (EWG), did not disclose the financial backing of its purported front
group headed by discredited former tobacco lobbyist Steven Milloy.

    "Our clients and Fenton's clients are the families who have been poisoned
by pesticides, the industrial workers exposed to toxic chemicals, and the
people who can't breathe because the air is so polluted," said EWG President
Ken Cook.  "We've always been upfront about who we are and what we do.  We
don't represent multi-billion dollar chemical companies and corporate
polluters.  This attack on Fenton Communications and EWG is really an attack
on public interest groups like ours for fulfilling our mission to protect the
public."

    "I'm calling on Mr. Milloy to reveal where he gets his money, so that we
can measure the profit motive behind this fake report," added Cook.

    EWG and Fenton have been at the forefront of advocating more stringent
safeguards on pesticides and other toxic chemicals, especially in relation to
children's health.  This advocacy has drawn particular attention from the
chemical industry because their products are coming under increasing
scientific scrutiny.  In May, the EPA moved to ban Dursban, the nation's top
selling home use insecticide, because of concerns about its effects on a
child's developing nervous system and other potential problems.  The EPA is
expected to make a similar decision within a month about the nation's #2 home
use bug killer, Diazinon.

    As documented by John Stauber, the Director of PR Watch, in his upcoming
book, Mr. Milloy is a long time tobacco lobbyist who has worked for Philip
Morris (since 1992) and Brown and Williamson. In 1997 he was named head of the
Philip Morris-created group The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition.  This
was based at Milloy's lobbying firm, EOP, where clients also included the
Nuclear Energy Institute, Dow Chemical, The American Crop Protection
Association (pesticide manufacturers), the Chlorine Chemistry Council and the
American Petroleum Institute.

    Mr. Milloy has routinely attacked respected scientific journals like
Lancet, Science, Nature, The New England Journal of Medicine, the Journal of
the American Medical Association and others on behalf of tobacco companies.
Upon the recent death of Dr. David Rall, who ran the National Institute of
Environmental Health Science and the National Toxicology Program, Mr. Milloy
wrote on his web site: "Scratch one junk scientist."  In response, one of
Milloy's employers, the Cato Institute, publicly disassociated itself from his
offensive comments.

SOURCE  Environmental Working Group

    -0-                             08/31/2000

    /CONTACT:  Ken Cook of Environmental Working Group, 202-674 8400, email:
ken ewg.org/

    /Web site:  http://www.ewg.org/
********************************************************************
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 04:31:29 2000
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Rick writes:
>What really pisses me off and urges me towards activism in this area 
>is that some British *******s have figured out a way to genetically 
>engineer coffee beans to grow without caffein. Yet another disaster 
>waiting to get loose. This stuff is all going to end in tears I'm 
>telling you - if they let us keep our tear glands that is.  ;(
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

I agree.  The expense of this kind of research, and the profit motive have
resulted in biotech firms looking to create markets for these little
monsters where, in many cases, they are not really even necessary.
Dishonest salesmen "just doing their jobs", and other lobbiests then attempt
to convince the public that these monsters are necessary, and even go so far
as to say things like "it is morally irresponsible to not use these
technologies for the benefit of mankind, bla, bla bla.". 

All of it is very new science, and in my opinion, the charge to market
should be slowed dramatically to ensure that all the safeguards are in place
before they are used in a widespread manner.  Decades should be spent in
research before anything like this ever gets out of the lab.  Strict
monitoring and regulation of the military's usage as well as private
enterprise should be enabled and empowered, and the studies should be made
available to a wider group of scientists of real integrity before proceeding
with any programs to assure that all the necessary studies and
considerations are made.  The immediate and irrevocable halting of the use
of these products at the first sight of danger should be a power of
government to ensure that the public is protected.  No industry insiders
should be allowed near the regulatory bodies by law.  In other words, if you
have ever held a position in that industry, you should be banned from ever
holding a position in a regulatory agency, and vice versa.

There have been reports that the genetic modification of plants has cross
bread itself into bacteria naturally, and that the new genetically altered
forms of bacteria have been found in the stomachs of bees.  This is
obviously an unintentional and unforseen event that signals the distinct
possibility that humans and other higher lifeforms could have their genes
modified by the plants and meat that they eat.  The really devious thing is
that some of the biotechs have been subverting the legal and democratic
processes of other countries and sneaking their product into countries that
have laws on the books specifically disallowing these products.  They use
genetically engineered soybeans and soybean oil, and glucose from
genetically engineered corn for example, in many processed foods, and ship
them to Europe without declaring the "nature" or origin of the ingredients
of their product.  They forced it down the throats of those people, those
people are pretty mad about it, and rightly so.  They have the right to know
what is in their food, and they have the right to choose whether or not to
eat it.  The companies that have been found to be responsible for this
happening should have their management completely overhauled, they should be
fined severly and the individuals responsible should be removed from society
for a time as a protection to the public until they learn that this sort of
behavior will not be allowed.

Many of the companies that are doing this kind of work are arms
manufacturers, and chemical poison manufacturers.  In many cases, the
genetically altered plants produce their own pesticides, which have the same
deleterious effect on life, obviously, as the normal poisons that they have
used.  We no sooner pass legislation to ban the chemicals through a long,
expensive and arduous process, only to find out that the new poisons are now
in the genetic make up of the food itself.  These companies have also bought
up significant holdings in the media industry to make sure that the public
gets the message that these guys want to hear.  CBS and NBC for example, are
both owned by arms manufacturers.

How much more retardation, cancer and misery can this populace take before
it realizes that the leaders of these companies are criminally insane, and
can only think about producing death in a myriad of fashions?  They have to
be taken out of their positions of abusive power and authority, and
penalized.  Nothing less.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:54:43 -0400
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Vortex,

This is to serve notice that I have resigned my position at Cold Fusion =
Technology, effective 8/31/00.  The resignation has been accepted by =
Eugene Mallove.

Ed Wall

formerly:
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975   =20
website: www.infinite-energy.com

"I believe it is better to learn what is probable about important =
matters than to be certain about trival ones."
Ian Stevenson

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vortex,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is to serve notice that I have =
resigned my=20
position at Cold Fusion Technology, effective 8/31/00.&nbsp; The =
resignation has=20
been accepted by Eugene Mallove.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Wall</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>formerly:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>New Energy Research Laboratory<BR>Cold =
Fusion=20
Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816<BR>voice: (603)=20
226-4822&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax: (603) 224-5975&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<BR>website: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.infinite-energy.com">www.infinite-energy.com</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I believe it is better to learn what =
is probable=20
about important matters than to be certain about trival ones."<BR>Ian=20
Stevenson</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 07:32:38 2000
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Sept. 1, 2,000

Ed,

I am shocked! It is something least expected coming from you. I hope the
CF community can stay in touch with you. Your own e-mail?

-AK-

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At 07:54 AM 9/1/00 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
>Vortex,
>
>This is to serve notice that I have resigned my position at Cold Fusion 
>Technology, effective 8/31/00.  The resignation has been accepted by 
>Eugene Mallove.


Ed, I am so sorry to hear this.  Who's going to get the right answers at 
NERL now!?

I've enjoyed collaborating with you on various calorimetric 
challenges.  Please keep in touch.

Good luck



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:45:45 +0100
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Michael Huffman posted the following

>  >Hi All,
>>    Well as long as I was at it I thought I'd try to find the Chinese
>>Space agency. No luck, but I did find the chinese government's website.
>  >It's mostly censored out of course and the balance is in chinese

The Chinese talk in Chinese and are secretive. Why doesn't this suprise me?



>  I for one would like to know if
>  >they are REALLY interested in Dingles water car technology.

What is the Dingles water car technology?
>
>
>If anyone inquires, you might want to see if they had any luck with the
>Potapov device as well.  Potapov was supposed to have been contracted to
>make a couple of hundred thousand of his devices for them, but we never
>heard if he actually delivered.  The Brown's Gas generator is being
>manufactured over there too, and according to Todd Knudson, the quality of
>manufacturing had greatly improved over the first models.

The last I heard, some researchers was it Earth Tech, or Infinite 
Energy? and they were unable to get it to work. So Knuke, does it 
work or not. A friend of mine was importing Brown's Gas machines from 
China I think, Now if I just has a use for one.




>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

-- 
Thomas Malloy
Minnesota Real Estate Broker
2433 S. 16 Ave.
Minneapolis, MN 55404 USA
Phone 612 722 0069
fax      413 647 9599

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At 7:30 AM -0400 9/1/00, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>How much more retardation, cancer and misery can this populace take before
>it realizes that the leaders of these companies are criminally insane, and
>can only think about producing death in a myriad of fashions?  They have to
>be taken out of their positions of abusive power and authority, and
>penalized.  Nothing less.

Now *that's* what I'm talking about. This stuff is very serious, and 
the effects unknown - although  as you said, there's already good 
indication that the little beasties are already out of Pandora's box.

Caffeine exists in coffee plants for a reason, and it's not just so 
we can have a lightly drugged drink. I don't know what that reason 
really is, but breed it out and perhaps some little mold or smut 
virus nobody cares about now takes advantage, strengthens and 
changes, and the next thing you know the world can't grow rice. War 
and great suffering will follow. These low-lifes among us - 
"scientists" who commit biological crimes - well, you said it best.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 13:10:39 2000
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Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:02:09 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ni CF in Japan
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The Second Annual Japan CF conference (JCF2) features papers about Ni CF,
by Ota, Notoya and Yamada. Nickel and other alternatives to palladium have
been the focus of increasing attention in Japan, because palladium so
difficult to work with. At ICCF8, Ota et al. at only recently begun work
with this metal, and they had no rock solid positive results yet, but they
were optimistic. They inherited a great deal of equipment from the NHE
project, and they had spent about a year reconfiguring and calibrating it.
They did not think much of the NHE calorimetry. The equipment is the best
that money can buy, but Ota and his co-workers felt that it was poorly
arranged, and they say they have improved accuracy and precision
significantly.

I hope they have measured excess heat. I expect they have the equipment and
expertise to measure helium production with a closed cell Ni - H cathode.
If they find helium, as I expect they will, that would be the final nail in
the coffin for the Mills theory, as it relates to CF energy production. A
few weeks ago, George Holz explained that according to the latest Mills
theory, the hydrinos produce all the heat in Ni CF, but with Pd they cause
aneutronic nuclear fusion, and contribute only a tiny fraction of total
heat directly. That seems contrived to me. Anyway, I hope we find out once
and for all whether there is anything to it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 13:38:54 2000
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   Those interested in finding out what is happening in
cold fusion can hear a radio show on it which
was conducted Wednesday.

Drs. Scott Chubb, Mel Miles, and myself took part in
discussion on cold fusion (several types) of experiments,
including statistical analysis and helium leaks, and theory
including those that involve transfer to the lattice.

This show is on the internet for the next few days, at
http://www.libertyworksradio.com/21stcentury/dr_bob.htm
   Once the page appears, click on "wednesday", and a
PC-media window will play it.

   If anyone wants the pictures discussed, they are below:
tritium production (lower right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft43.gif
terbium production on palladium (lower 
left)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft71.gif
other possible isotopic production on
         palladium alloys (lower left)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft63.gif
hot spots at nuclear event sites (lower 
right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft61.gif
possible isotopic production on
        palladium  (lower right) http://world.std.com/~mica/cft44.gif
simultaneous heat and helium production
       (lower right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft53.gif
possible bose einstein condensates in cf  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft42.gif


    Dr. Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 13:40:00 2000
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At 04:02 PM 9/1/2000 -0400, Jed wrote:
>The Second Annual Japan CF conference (JCF2) features papers about Ni CF,
>by Ota, Notoya and Yamada. Nickel and other alternatives to palladium have
>been the focus of increasing attention in Japan, because palladium so
>difficult to work with. At ICCF8, Ota et al. at only recently begun work
>with this metal, and they had no rock solid positive results yet, but they
>were optimistic. They inherited a great deal of equipment from the NHE
>project, and they had spent about a year reconfiguring and calibrating it.
>They did not think much of the NHE calorimetry. The equipment is the best
>that money can buy, but Ota and his co-workers felt that it was poorly
>arranged, and they say they have improved accuracy and precision
>significantly.


   If they had use square wave thermal pulses, and examined the input
and output to determine the system response, then they would have
learned about the DIFFERENCES between their systems, some of which
were faulty.  Once again calibration, and careful planning might have
prevented some of the problems.


   Those interested in finding out what is happening in
cold fusion can hear a radio show on it which
was conducted Wednesday.

Drs. Scott Chubb, Mel Miles, and myself discussed  experiments,
including statistical analysis and helium leaks, and theory
including those that involve transfer to the lattice.

This show is on the internet for the next few days, at
http://www.libertyworksradio.com/21stcentury/dr_bob.htm
   Once the page appears, click on "wednesday", and a
PC-media window will play it.

   If anyone wants the pictures discussed, they are below:
tritium production (lower right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft43.gif
terbium production on palladium (lower 
left)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft71.gif
other possible isotopic production on
         palladium alloys (lower left)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft63.gif
hot spots at nuclear event sites (lower 
right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft61.gif
possible isotopic production on
        palladium  (lower right) http://world.std.com/~mica/cft44.gif
simultaneous heat and helium production
       (lower right)  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft53.gif
possible bose einstein condensates in cf  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft42.gif

COLD FUSION TIMES   http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
JET Energy Technology  http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html

    Dr. Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 14:31:18 2000
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Knuke wrote
>
>How much more retardation, cancer and misery can this populace take before
>it realizes that the leaders of these companies are criminally insane, and
>can only think about producing death in a myriad of fashions?  They have to
>be taken out of their positions of abusive power and authority, and
>penalized.  Nothing less.


I don't know Michael, I think that we have a long way to go before we 
outdo nature in it's ability to produce retardation, cancer and 
misery. I do think that people who don't want to consume genetically 
altered food should be able to find out, by reading the label, if it 
has been genetically altered. But given that the products of gene 
modification are now loose in the biosphere that is becoming 
increasingly difficult, if not impossible.

I see biotechnology as the only way of sustaining the population 
without famine. I realize that the corporate leaders were out to make 
a profit, but without the advances in food production made possible 
by the biotech revolution, food would be in short supply, as opposed 
to the present surpluses, Have you ever heard of Mathus?

The Europeans have attempted to maintain a food production system 
based on old technology and small farmers. If you like that model you 
should consider what spending 50% of your budget on food instead of 
25% and see what that does to your finances.

Thomas

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 14:31:32 2000
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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:20:42 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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Robin  van Spaandonk said;

>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:57:53 -0500:
>[snip]
>>Thank you for the reply Jed, but you ignored my main question, were
>>is the energy going, and how do we capture it?
>[snip]
>Possible answers:
>1) There isn't any, because the purported reaction doesn't occur.
>2) Light element fission &/or heavy element fusion is also taking place
>which soaks up the "excess" energy. I.e. the real reaction is a shift
>reaction where no net mass->energy conversion takes place, but a different
>spread of elements results.
>3) Neutrinos.

Horace Heffner added
Another possibility:

4) unknown and stable excited nuclear states exist.

>
>David Moon says that it's Neutrinos. If he is right, how can we 
>capture the Neutrinos and convert them into energy?


I think that # 1 is out of the question because of the production of 
rare isotopes.

I'll take # 2 and # 4 up with David and see what he says.

Thank you Robin for raising this thread.

Thomas


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 15:01:42 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Sep 01, 2000
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 1 Sep 00   Washington, DC

1. FLASH!!  CLINTON WILL NOT DEPLOY A NATIONAL MISSILE DEFENSE.
Speaking at Georgetown University this morning, President Clinton
said the U.S., "should not move forward until we have absolute
confidence the system will work."  He has therefore decided not
to authorize deployment, including the pouring of concrete for a
radar facility on Shemya Island.  Instead, he is directing the
Defense Department to proceed full speed on development.  His
position agrees in every respect with the APS statement on NMD 
http://www.aps.org/statements/00.2.html . That should offer some
satisfaction to the hundreds of APS members who responded to the
call to inform the president of their views (WN 28 Jul 00).

2. SPY HYSTERIA: WEN HO LEE RETURNS HOME TODAY.  Or at least he
moves to a larger cell.  Federal Judge James Parker ordered Lee
released on $1M bail after a lengthy hearing (WN 18 Aug 00), but
imposed virtual home detention.  It is now clear that inaccurate
testimony by government officials resulted in Lee needlessly
spending eight months in prison under unusually harsh conditions.
Even so, Lee's release was delayed to allow 30 FBI personnel to
conduct a 12 hour search of his home.  The government, which has
been almost hysterical in its opposition to bail, had until noon
today to appeal to the Federal Circuit Court in Denver. 

3. FATAL ATTRACTION: FLORSHEIM PULLS ITS HEALTH CLAIMS.  Faced
with a consumer lawsuit in California, and ridicule from the
scientific community, Florsheim has yanked the brochures that
described the "science" behind its MagneForce shoes (WN 18 Aug
00).  Its web page, which once claimed that its magnetic insole,
"increases circulation: reduces foot, leg and back fatigue;
provides natural pain relief and increased energy level," now
simply says it's, "the first shoe with its own power supply."  

4. NOBEL DREAMS: RUMORS ABOUND THAT A HIGGS WAS SPOTTED AT CERN.
Even as the LEP collider prepares to shut down at the end of
September, there are reports of a few events that might involve
the Higgs boson.  While these events are far from conclusive,
there are calls to extend operations for several months.

5. IG NOBEL DREAMS: COLD FUSION MEMO TO PRESIDENT CLINTON.  Who
has not heard of the car that runs on water, suppressed of course
by the oil industry?  In 1979, Sam Leach raised millions from
deep-pocket investors, including the founder of Budget Rent-A-
Car, for a laser device that separated water into oxygen and
hydrogen fuel with a net gain in energy.  Now, Eugene Mallove has
released a 13-page memo he wrote for President Clinton at the
request of the White House, titled 'The Strange Birth of the
Water Fuel Age: the Cold Fusion "Miracle" Was No Mistake.' The
request, according to Mallove, was prompted by Sir Arthur C.
Clarke.  The President, Mallove reports, has not yet responded.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 15:11:11 2000
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An experiment that someone might like to do, is to cob up a 
wheatstone bridge circuit using four resistors of ~ 5 ohms each
and putting the leads to the current loop in one of the legs and
moving it about to see if the induced voltage can be quantified
with a DVM across the bridge. A  variable power supply
or  a 12 volt battery with a rheostat in series should do okay.

This should get around meter "artifacts"  and allow feeding 
different currents through the "loop".

Since Horace already has gone to the trouble of building
a  4.4 ohm loop....   :-)

Regards,     Frederick


                               


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 21:38:00 2000
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Tom writes:

>What is the Dingles water car technology?

Stefan Hartmann has been tracking that one, Tom.  I believe it is another
"water car" similar to what Stan Meyer did in the overall concept.  The guy
is located in the Phillipines.  Stefan has video footage, and some other
stuff on his site  :

http://www.overunity.com/over.htm

>>If anyone inquires, you might want to see if they had any luck with the
>>Potapov device as well.  Potapov was supposed to have been contracted to
>>make a couple of hundred thousand of his devices for them, but we never
>>heard if he actually delivered.  The Brown's Gas generator is being
>>manufactured over there too, and according to Todd Knudson, the quality of
>>manufacturing had greatly improved over the first models.
>
>The last I heard, some researchers was it Earth Tech, or Infinite 
>Energy? and they were unable to get it to work. So Knuke, does it 
>work or not. A friend of mine was importing Brown's Gas machines from 
>China I think, Now if I just has a use for one.

That's why I asked about it.  Peter Glueck was saying something about how
Potapov had figured out a way to generate electricity with in and that they
had a big contract with the Chinese.  That was the last I heard of it.  The
tests done here were a real frustrating thing to participate in for a number
of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that Potapov sold everyone
incomplete devices.  The language barrier, and lack of communication on his
end was not a help either.  I don't know if it works, but the original
report from the military indicated that it was working to their satisfaction.

As for the Brown's Gas machine, you can get them from China and from Wiseman
in Canada.  They definitely work, and I will have one the moment I can
afford it.  No mad scientist should be without one, as far as I can see. ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 21:41:35 2000
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Experimental Setup:

Two 1.5 volt "C" Batteries in series in a battery holder feeding
two 15 ohm 1/2 watt resistors in series with a "Current Loop"
~ 0.1 meters diameter. The current loop was fed by two clip
leads ~ 12" long and dangled down over the edge of the
work table.

Both a digital and analog voltmeter were used to measure the
voltage drop across the lower resistor with the current loop at
rest, and set in motion by striking it with a plastic rod ~ 6 inches long.

Results:

With the current loop at rest the voltage drop was  across the lower  
resistor was 1.25 volts D.C. When the current loop was hit the voltage
drop decreased to ~ 1.20 volts or a dV of ~ 0.05 volts occurred until
the loop stopped moving and the voltage drop returned to 1.25 volts.

It took the Digital meter longer to settle in, and was more difficult to
get a repeat than the analog meter  ( ~ $10.00   Wal-Mart) nice multimeter 
shirt-pocket size.  

Except for the analog meter, I had all this stuff in-house, Vince.   :-)

Is this going to need a Faraday Cage?    

Regards,      Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 22:21:12 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Were's the energy going?
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At 4:20 PM 9/1/0, thomas malloy wrote:

>>David Moon says that it's Neutrinos. If he is right, how can we
>>capture the Neutrinos and convert them into energy?


The trick, it would seem, is to not generate the neutrinos.  The only way
this can be accomplished is to slide the reactions into a regime where the
branching ratios look more like those for the high energy reactions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 22:25:25 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 10:34 PM 9/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Experimental Setup:
>
>Two 1.5 volt "C" Batteries in series in a battery holder feeding
>two 15 ohm 1/2 watt resistors in series with a "Current Loop"
>~ 0.1 meters diameter. The current loop was fed by two clip
>leads ~ 12" long and dangled down over the edge of the
>work table.
>
>Both a digital and analog voltmeter were used to measure the
>voltage drop across the lower resistor with the current loop at
>rest, and set in motion by striking it with a plastic rod ~ 6 inches long.
>
>Results:
>
>With the current loop at rest the voltage drop was  across the lower
>resistor was 1.25 volts D.C. When the current loop was hit the voltage
>drop decreased to ~ 1.20 volts or a dV of ~ 0.05 volts occurred until
>the loop stopped moving and the voltage drop returned to 1.25 volts.
>
>It took the Digital meter longer to settle in, and was more difficult to
>get a repeat than the analog meter  ( ~ $10.00   Wal-Mart) nice multimeter
>shirt-pocket size.
>
>Except for the analog meter, I had all this stuff in-house, Vince.   :-)
>
>Is this going to need a Faraday Cage?


Try wrapping it in two layers of aluminum foil.

Sorry, but I am going to Fairbanks to take my daughter off to college.
When I come back I have promises to the wife (remodelling) to keep.  I'm
pretty much out of commission for a while.

BTW, there was an earthquake near hear last night.  Some of the curious
signals I saw may have been pre-coursers.  Then again, maybe not.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  1 23:16:19 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Biotech food production
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:05:27 GMT
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Hi Thomas,

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:19:16 +0100, thomas malloy
<temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:

>I don't know Michael, I think that we have a long way to go before we 
>outdo nature in it's ability to produce retardation, cancer and 
>misery. 

Nope.  There are several methods to stop cancer, heart and circulatory
problems, diabetes and many other major diseases right now!  Even
retardation (and autism, ADD, etc) is treatable -- and more
importantly, preventable in most cases.

But you won't find this out from the AMA or most MDs.

>The Europeans have attempted to maintain a food production system 
>based on old technology and small farmers. If you like that model you 
>should consider what spending 50% of your budget on food instead of 
>25% and see what that does to your finances.

However, I somewhat agree with you that GM foods aren't a big deal --
only forced hybridization.  We (the human race) don't really need GM
foods to feed people (food production isn't the problem, it's food
distribution that keeps some groups of people starving).  IMO, GM is
being used to "lock in" farmers to seed companies.

PS:  I live in the middle of seed production country, with lots of big
and little seed companies growing fields of normal hybrids and GM
seeds all around me (literally -- my house is surrounded by these
fields).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Horace wrote:


> At 10:34 PM 9/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >Experimental Setup:
> >
> >Two 1.5 volt "C" Batteries in series in a battery holder feeding
> >two 15 ohm 1/2 watt resistors in series with a "Current Loop"
> >~ 0.1 meters diameter. The current loop was fed by two clip
> >leads ~ 12" long and dangled down over the edge of the
> >work table.
> >
> >Both a digital and analog voltmeter were used to measure the
> >voltage drop across the lower resistor with the current loop at
> >rest, and set in motion by striking it with a plastic rod ~ 6 inches long.
> >
> >Results:
> >
> >With the current loop at rest the voltage drop was  across the lower
> >resistor was 1.25 volts D.C. When the current loop was hit the voltage
> >drop decreased to ~ 1.20 volts or a dV of ~ 0.05 volts occurred until
> >the loop stopped moving and the voltage drop returned to 1.25 volts.
> >
> >It took the Digital meter longer to settle in, and was more difficult to
> >get a repeat than the analog meter  ( ~ $10.00   Wal-Mart) nice multimeter
> >shirt-pocket size.
> >
> >Except for the analog meter, I had all this stuff in-house, Vince.   :-)
> >
> >Is this going to need a Faraday Cage?
>
>
> Try wrapping it in two layers of aluminum foil.

For the Geomagnetic EMF:  V = vBL = 1.0*5.0E-5*0.30 =  1.5E-5 (volts)
For 0.050 volts from a Magnetogravity B Field, Bmg = 0.050/1.5E-5 = 3.33E3 Tesla!

For a 1.0 meter current loop at the center of the Earth: 0.02583*5.98E24 =  1.54E23
Ampere-Meters,
then Bmg = uo*1.54E23/(2*r) = 1.94E17 Tesla.
Then at the Earth's surface Bmg for a 1.0 meter current loop = 1.94E17/(6.38E6)^2 = 4.77E3 Tesla
which isn't too far off of the calculated 3.33E3  Tesla.

Did I pull a fast one here?  :-)
>
> BTW, there was an earthquake near here last night.  Some of the curious
> signals I saw may have been pre-coursers.  Then again, maybe not.

Not too surprising, Horace.

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 00:47:06 2000
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Hi All,
   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
MJ<grin>
http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 00:54:14 2000
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Horace wrote:

>
> Wrap it in two layers of Aluminum Foil
>

Done it. Encased the ~ 0.1 meter diameter 14 Ga Copper Current Loop
in a plastic "baggie" then covered this with Two Layers of Reynolds Wrap,
including some of the clip leads too.

I still get ~ 0.050 volts dip when I hit it with a plastic rod,to make it oscillate,
 using the analog voltmeter on the 2.5 volt scale. It takes about a moment for it to 
stop moving which allows the meter to come back to 1.25 volts.

Now what?    :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 01:02:25 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Biotech food production
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Tom writes:
>I don't know Michael, I think that we have a long way to go before we 
>outdo nature in it's ability to produce retardation, cancer and 
>misery. I do think that people who don't want to consume genetically 
>altered food should be able to find out, by reading the label, if it 
>has been genetically altered. But given that the products of gene 
>modification are now loose in the biosphere that is becoming 
>increasingly difficult, if not impossible.

That's just it, Tom.  They forced it upon us without our knowledge in this
country, and they did this years ago.  They have very forcefully and
deceitfully done it ever since in countries throughout the world thanks to
their abusive tactics in the WTO, and we are now seeing not only the
physical damage to humans, but also the damage to the soil that has rendered
it unusable in many areas if you try to grow any another product in it.

I don't think that your assessment of the ability of these chemical and
biological agents to cause retardation and cancer are correct, either.  In
fact, I know it is not.  Get a can of common household RAID, and spray a
little on yourself anywhere on your body.  It doesn't take much, or long to
feel the effect.  Read the ingredients. Nerve gas combined with the same
petroleum distillates that are used to make polymers and remove paint.  If
you don't feel the effect, then there is something wrong with you. If you
can't taste it on your tongue, it is because you have been damaged severely
already.  I get a numbness in my mucous membranes, my throat contricts, I
get stomach pains and cramps.  I feel tired and stooopid for hours
afterward, and unlike dope or alcohol which clear the body after a given
time, the damaging effects of these poisonous nerve agent chemicals that are
sold by the truckload are permanent.  Imagine yourself as an embryo
struggling for life under those conditions.

The IQ scores have been recorded now for at least 4 generations that I know
of, so there is nothing about the current trend of lowering scores that
would indicate that Nature had anything to do with the problem.  Most
children I meet today are nice kids, but boy are they dumb.  I don't enjoy
saying that, but it is true, and there is a reason for it that needs to be
honestly acknowleged and corrected before things get progressively worse.
It will take generations for the current damage to be undone.  Nobody with
any sense whatsoever could possibly defend the continued usage of these
chemicals or biotechnologies.

>I see biotechnology as the only way of sustaining the population 
>without famine. I realize that the corporate leaders were out to make 
>a profit, but without the advances in food production made possible 
>by the biotech revolution, food would be in short supply, as opposed 
>to the present surpluses, Have you ever heard of Mathus?

I've never heard of Malthus.  I could look him up, I suppose.  If you know
of any web references, I'll give them a read.  I know that biotechnology was
SOLD as the idea of the future for feeding humanity, but as we have
blatantly seen, just the opposite has occurred.  The efforts to cover it up
have been extraordinary as well.  Monsanto was just convicted of threatening
a Florida television station if they aired any negative reports about the
bovine growth hormone in cows, and its effect on humans.  Criminally insane
behavior?  Looks that way to me, and anyone else that has ever lived in fear
of these bastards.

>The Europeans have attempted to maintain a food production system 
>based on old technology and small farmers. If you like that model you 
>should consider what spending 50% of your budget on food instead of 
>25% and see what that does to your finances.
>
>Thomas

Tom, I lived there for over eight years, and didn't eat anything out of a PX
either, although I did have the opportunity.  As for my finances while I was
there, I made less than minimum wage for the most part of the time, and
lived quite well as opposed to how I exist here.  I lived in a couple of
structures that were over 1000 years old, and numerous others that were over
600 years old.  One Bavarian farmhouse that I lived in was 250 years old,
and the neighboring farmers called it "The New House".  They know how to
build things of lasting value (like their children), and they treasure them.
I don't see the US doing things better or smarter.  In fact, everything I
see is just the opposite, including the people.  Cheap, disposable junk.

I also don't know where in the world you get your numbers, but the Europeans
definitely do NOT spend 50% of their budget on food.  Even with my
comparatively extremely low income, I didn't even spend that percentage on
food.  Food is quite affordable there, and it is without a doubt much better
than it is here.  It is also quite plentiful, so much so that what they grow
beyond their own needs, they export as surplus.  The bread is simply
incredible compared to the processed Wonderbread crap we have to eat here.

In most European countries they have purity laws that restrict the amount
and kind of chemicals that they use, and the farmers are intelligent enough
to know that a quick buck for a higher yield is not the best thing for
themselves or their customers.  They are very efficient farmers too, BTW,
because space is at a premium there, and they have studied Nature for
centuries to make the most of it.  I knew many of the farmers there, and
they all impressed me as having a very deep respect and reverence for
Nature, and a consideraton for their fellow man that I just don't see here
in many parts of this country, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary.
They would not even consider for a moment looking for civilian uses for
chemical warfare agents for example, like the professional poisoners do in
this country to expand their market and profit margins.  That would be
something that all of them would consider to be criminally insane.  Farmers
were farmers, and the military was the military.  There was no crossover
ownership between the food and weapons industries there like there is here.
The degree to which this situation exists varies from country to country,
but overall, that is what I found to be true, especially on the mainland.
Great Britain is another story, unfortunately.

As a result, the food that they grow is more flavorful, robust and full of
life. It has a higher vitamin content, and the people are healthier and
smarter. Look at the rankings of the intelligence quotients of people from
other countries, and compare them to our rankings.  Look at the rankings of
your own state.  I know I have said this before, and I don't want to bore
you, but do it and you will be shocked at the difference.  Go to these other
countries and have a look around, talk to the people, it is abundantly
obvious why they are better off than we are.  They are smarter than we are,
as opposed to being retarded.  They are not governed by retarded oil
Klansmen from Houston.  In that regard, they ultimately have more freedom
than we do, and the wisdom to exercise it for the benefit of everyone.

I applaud the efforts that you have made to help people in the developing
countries, but if you are not careful about how you go about it, you will
damage them in the long run.  I don't think that is what you want to do.
Eventually, they will find out, and you will have damaged your own cause.  I
think that we all need to look at what we are doing, and make hard decisions
about how to continue.  I think that when we have found overwhelming
evidence that certain people and industries have consciously and
intentionally worked to harm us, then we need to stop them.  We have to.  We
have to do it immediately, and we cannot stop until it is done.  It can be
done.  It may cost us some money, and maybe even a few of us our lives, but
in the end, we all have to realize that to exist in this kind of slave state
is not the same as being alive.  There is a big difference.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 05:10:53 2000
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Subject: Re: Ni CF in Japan
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Jed wrote:

>If they find helium, as I expect they will,

I want this list to know that I disagree with this purely wish-like 
assertion, followed by another assertion about Mills that is also 
wish-like.

>that would be the final nail in
>the coffin for the Mills theory, as it relates to CF energy production. 

I am in complete agreement with George Holz's view, summarized by Jed 
below.
>A
>few weeks ago, George Holz explained that according to the latest Mills
>theory, the hydrinos produce all the heat in Ni CF, but with Pd they cause
>aneutronic nuclear fusion, and contribute only a tiny fraction of total
>heat directly. That seems contrived to me.

Holz's view is not contrived at all.

> Anyway, I hope we find out once
>and for all whether there is anything to it.

Science marches on.
>
>- Jed

Gene Mallove

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>Hi All,
>   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
>MJ<grin>
>http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm

***{Wow! The word is spectacular! Copy this one to a removable disk and get
it out of your computer before some spook hacks in and fogs up the image!
--MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 11:17:16 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Ni CF in Japan
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>>If they find helium, as I expect they will,
>
>I want this list to know that I disagree with this purely wish-like 
>assertion, followed by another assertion about Mills that is also 
>wish-like.

My assertion is not wish-like. I have no stake in the outcome; I could not
care less what causes CF, whether it be hydrinos, nuclear fusion, or ZPE. I
assume they will find helium because they have already found every other
type of nuclear ash with Ni and Au, such as transmutations and tritium, so
there is no reason to think the mechanism with Ni is any different than it
is with Pd.

In a limited sense, I do hope they find helium because that will rule out
several possibilities, and narrow down the scope of theories that need to
be considered. I suppose *not* finding helium would also eliminate theories
(including fusion), but it would complicate things. It would mean the
mechanism of Ni-CF is fundamentally different from Pd-CF. I suppose a
complication would stretch out the time needed to solve the problem.

My only "wish like" hope for Mills is that he act in his own interests and
start running his business like a business, instead of a cult. That's a
forlorn hope. I think his theories cannot explain CF energy. If his CF
cells and compounds produce energy, I am interested in his activities. If
they do not produce energy, I could not care less what he does, or says, or
how much of his investor's money he squanders. I figure if he is wrong
about energy, he must be wrong about everything, because energy is
relatively easy to measure.


>I am in complete agreement with George Holz's view, summarized by Jed 
>below.
>>A
>>few weeks ago, George Holz explained that according to the latest Mills
>>theory, the hydrinos produce all the heat in Ni CF, but with Pd they cause
>>aneutronic nuclear fusion, and contribute only a tiny fraction of total
>>heat directly.

In that case, if the Japanese researchers nail down the helium once and for
all, Gene and George will agree with me, and they will reject the Mills
theory as it pertains to CF. It seems we are all in agreement that helium
is the acid test.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 11:48:44 2000
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Subject: Potential work opportunities at CFTI
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:41:21 -0400
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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September 2, 2000

Dear Colleagues,

Now that our lab engineer Ed Wall has formally resigned from CFTI after 
two years of excellent work (even though I asked him to reconsider and 
take a two-month, partially-paid leave of absence to reconsider), there 
may be work opportunities at CFTI �specifically at our NERL (New Energy 
Research Laboratory) here in Bow, NH right near Concord, NH.

At this time, Dr. Ed Storms in Santa Fe, NM (who had been working in 
parallel with Ed Wall on SEC and other calorimetry), will be working as a 
paid consultant to evaluate ten (10) thin-film LENR cathodes that we 
purchased under a research contract with Prof. George Miley's Group at 
Univ. of Illinois. The cathodes have been delivered to us recently and Ed 
Storms will be testing them soon.  Storms will also continue work that Ed 
Wall began in testing Dash-Warner cathodes in  a cell of a design of his 
own creation.  Our objective, of course, is to create demonstration cells 
for an excess heat educational kit. We have our own designs for a 
specialized calorimeter (proprietary). There is much else going on at 
NERL -- other CF work, hydrosonic pump, and some proprietary projects and 
emerging cooperative efforts with other groups.

Even though we are making no firm job opportunity announcements at this 
time (such may come in the first quarter of next year if developments at 
NERL are auspicious and our sponsors concur), it would be good for any of 
you or your associates who may be interested to submit your resume to my 
attention at the address below. Or, simply e-mail me. If you use 
attachments to your e-mail, please try RTF format. That's what my Mac 
most likes.  Suggested content for your submissions:

- A cover letter telling me of your background, interests, talents, and 
objectives. (We are interested mostly in hands-on scientists, engineers, 
computer people, and technicians, but perhaps you have some other talents 
that may be of use.)
� C.V. (resume)
� Salary requirements
- Relocation possibilities for you to New Hampshire area, or is there 
some work you might perform at your own location.

We all hope that 2001 will be good to us and for the field. There is more 
than enough work to be done -- that's for sure. Money is another matter!

You may post this  message anywhere you wish. (For early submitters -- I 
may not receive your e-mail till late Monday, Sept 4th, so don't expect a 
quick reply.)

All good wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 12:16:17 2000
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In a message dated 09/01/2000 3:01:47 PM, Akira Kawasaki forwarded Robert L. 
Park's latest WHAT'S NEW email column, which contained the following:

<< In 1979, Sam Leach raised millions from
deep-pocket investors, including the founder of Budget Rent-A-
Car, for a laser device that separated water into oxygen and
hydrogen fuel with a net gain in energy. >>

Who is this Leach character?  Has anyone ever heard of him before?  He's not 
listed in the index of Park's book, VOODOO SCIENCE.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 13:35:53 2000
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Subject: Rebuttal to John Horgan and Robert Park
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One of the people I love to hate is John Horgan, a Scientific American
columnist, who wrote "The End of Science: Facing the Limits of Knowledge in
the Twilight of the Scientific Age." The title speaks for itself. His
negative attitude is shared by Robert Park when he attacks things like
manned space travel and CF. Here is a wonderfully written rebuttal to their
arguments, published a long time ago. It begins with a warning to both
sides -- to the naysayers, and to those of us who dream of progress:


. . . by far the greatest obstacle to the advancement of the sciences, and
the undertaking of any new attempt or department, is to be found in men's
despair and the idea of impossibility; for men of a prudent and exact turn
of thought are altogether diffident in matters of this nature, considering
the obscurity of nature, the shortness of life, the deception of the
senses, and weakness of the judgment. They think, therefore, that in the
revolutions of ages and of the world there are certain floods and ebbs of
the sciences, and that they grow and flourish at one time, and wither and
fall off at another, that when they have attained a certain degree and
condition they can proceed no further.

If, therefore, anyone believe or promise greater things, they impute it to
an uncurbed and immature mind, and imagine that such efforts begin
pleasantly, then become laborious, and end in confusion. And since such
thoughts easily enter the minds of men of dignity and excellent judgment,
we must really take heed lest we should be captivated by our affection for
an excellent and most beautiful object, and relax or diminish the severity
of our judgment, and we must diligently examine what gleam of hope shines
upon us, and in what direction it manifests itself, so that, banishing her
lighter dreams, we may discuss and weigh whatever appears of more sound
importance. We must consult the prudence of ordinary life, too, which is
diffident upon principle, and in all human matters augurs the worst. Let
us, then, speak of hope, especially as we are not vain promisers, nor are
willing to enforce or ensnare men's judgment, but would rather lead them
willingly forward. . . .

- Francis Bacon, "Novum Organum," 1620


My goodness, how that man could write! If only philosophers and scientists
today would learn to express themselves with such clarity, imagine how much
faster progress would be. A few paragraphs below that, Bacon describes one
of our best reason for hope. It seems contradictory at first glance. He
says there is room for progress because people are incompetent, and we have
pretty much botched things until now. I think this is why we should feel
optimistic about CF. I assume that most failed CF experiments were botched,
or wrong-headed from the start. Ed Storms is probably correct in saying
that years have wasted on a dead end hypothesis about high loading and
reactions in the bulk. This is depressing until you look at things from
Bacon's point of view:


We will next give a most potent reason for hope deduced from the errors of
the past, and the ways still unattempted; for well was an ill-governed
state thus reproved, "That which is worst with regard to the past should
appear most consolatory for the future; for if you had done all that your
duty commanded, and your affairs proceeded no better, you could not even
hope for their improvement; but since their present unhappy situation is
not owing to the force of circumstances, but to your own errors, you have
reason to hope that by banishing or correcting the latter you can produce a
great change for the better in the former." So if men had, during the many
years that have elapsed, adhered to the right way of discovering and
cultivating the sciences without being able to advance, it would be
assuredly bold and presumptuous to imagine it possible to improve; but if
they have mistaken the way and wasted their labor on improper objects, it
follows that the difficulty does not arise from things themselves, which
are not in our power, but from the human understanding, its practice and
application, which is susceptible of remedy and correction. Our best plan,
therefore, is to expose these errors; for in proportion as they impeded the
past, so do they afford reason to hope for the future. . . .


This is good summary of the first ten years of CF. The first 10 years of
modern research into the structure of the cell nucleus was similar,
according to James Watson. He described a genetics conference in Italy he
attended before he and Crick made their breakthrough, which sounds a lot
like ICCF8, also in Italy:


The odds, however, were against any real revelation then. Much of the talk
about the three-dimensional structure of proteins and nucleic acids was hot
air. Though this work had been going on for over fifteen years, most if not
all of the facts were soft. Ideas put forward with conviction were likely
to be the products of wild crystallographers who delighted in being in a
field where their ideas could not be easily disproved. Thus, although
virtually all biochemists, including Herman, were unable to understand the
arguments of the X-ray people, there was little uneasiness. It made no
sense to learn complicated mathematical methods in order to follow baloney.
. . .

- J. Watson, "The Double Helix"

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 16:31:14 2000
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;->
MJ

Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Hi All,
> >   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
> >MJ<grin>
> >http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm
> 
> ***{Wow! The word is spectacular! Copy this one to a removable disk and get
> it out of your computer before some spook hacks in and fogs up the image!
> --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 19:16:20 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity Force
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:13:07 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:57:51 -0800:
[snip]
>Further difficulty arises due to the fact that time dilation is at a limit
>in a photon's reference frame.  Its clock is stopped for its entire
>journey.  If a photon's clock is stopped, how can anything oscillate in the
>photon's journey, say for a distance of 1000 of the photon's wavelengths?

There is obviously a wrong assumption here somewhere. Perhaps SR is simply
wrong, and time contraction doesn't happen. (Extended particle lifetimes at
velocities close to "c" may be exactly that i.e. a physical change occurs
such that the half life of the particle is actually longer, while time
doesn't change. One possible reason for such an increase in half life, could
be a real increase in mass).
No change in time would allow your photon to oscillate.

>
>I just don't get it.  If there is nothing to oscillate, and there is no
>time to oscillate, what exactly IS a photon anyway?  What is there that can
>carry a force from point A to point B, and also appear to oscillate in its
>journey?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 19:51:43 2000
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Exotic Research - http://www.exoticresearch.com

Dear Member, 
In 1984, I helped found the International Tesla Society.  For the next
12
years, I gave a major portion of my time, money and life to shaping, and
building the Society into a world class forum for new and unusual ideas.
I left the Tesla Society in December of 1995 primarily because it was
starting to get unfocused as to its primary purpose in life� providing
people with information. 

At that time, I made a conscious decision to build Exotic Research into
what I created for the International Tesla Society.  Exotic Research has
come a long way over the past few years since I left the International
Tesla Society.  This has been in spite of some tremendous hurdles that I
encountered over the past few years.  When I left the Tesla Society, I
lost literally everything I had, except for the clothes on my back and
two
computers in the back seat of a borrowed car.  I ended up in the  middle
of the Sonoran Desert with less than fifty cents in my pocket. 
 
Fortunately, I was able to set up shop at a friend�s trailer in the
desert.  He needed someone to watch the place so that he could move into
town and continue his education. Although it was rent-free, the trailer
had no heating or air-conditioning� it was a wreck. It�s only salvation
was that it didn�t leak, it had two phone lines, and electricity.  It
was
a lonely life, with very little personal comfort, and a nocturnal work
schedule due to the intense heat.  Nonetheless, I managed to get
magazines
out and held two conferences, before I was able to move to a better
facility. 

Since I moved to the new facility,  Michelle has come into my life and
she
shares my struggles now.  For a long time Michelle made her money by
trading, salvaging and selling various items at a local flea market� in
essence, she operated a thrift shop out of a truck.  Occasionally, she
does come across antiques which she places on consignment in the local
antique stores.  Soon, she hopes to have her own website to market her
antiques and  collectibles. 
Since its inception, Exotic Research has had to pay cash up front for
everything, and schedules are based on money available, rather than what
can actually be done physically. The lack of money slows everything down
and messes up the timing of the operation. It makes bootstrapping  more
difficult.  In order to help Exotic Research grow, I have used very
little
personal money and live in the same building as our office.
Additionally,
for three years, I have operated without a reliable vehicle in which to
get around.  As we are 40 miles from town, this has also hampered our
ability to operate on schedule.  Despite all of the problems, both
Michelle (my wife) and I are determined to make Exotic Research
successful.  But we need help now.
  
The basic underlying problem is the lack of sufficient operating
capital.
Had the proper credit or capital been in place, many of the hardships
and
expenses would not have been incurred.  At this time, we have just about
given up on a major investor getting involved.  We have had our hopes
dashed too many times by what turned out to be false promises. Instead,
we
have decided to appeal to the membership to help us build Exotic
Research
into a world class organization that we all can be proud of.   To do
this,
we decided to add two levels of  membership and benefits to the
organization: 
 
1. Supporter  ($100 annually) � 
� Framed certificate of membership
� Hand painted Exotic Research T-shirt (please send size)
� Inventor Contact List

2. Sustainer ($1000 annually) � 
� Framed certificate of membership
� Hand painted Exotic Research T-shirt (please send size)
� Inventor Contact List
� VIP Pass to Exotic Research Conference
� Exotic Research Monthly Newsletter (information on projects we are
actively involved with)

In addition, all of the prayers sent our way, cash donations of any
size,
or donations of equipment or supplies are all deeply appreciated.  We
can
put used equipment to good use.  Recently we received a terrific radial
saw and 8-ft table with guides that are in place in our workshop.  As a
fundraiser for Exotic Research, Michelle has volunteered to clean,
restore
and resell materials we are unable to utilize.  With a motto of "Your
junk, my treasure!", Michelle believes every item has a buyer�. You just
have to wait for them� and usually you don�t have to wait that long.

Your support WILL make a difference.  Instead of my attention being
diverted to beating the bushes looking for capital� or juggling the cash
flow to get things done, I could focus on matters like� expanding the
selection of books for the catalog� improving the quality and timeliness
of the magazine� airing a weekly radio show� and putting books and
videos
together from the materials I have on hand. The sky is the limit� and
everybody wins!

Time is of the essence.  Financially, Conference 2000 hurt us pretty bad
and we have depleted our funds to cover some of the conference expenses.
As a consequence, we do have some outstanding bills that need to be paid
yesterday.  Once these immediate bills are covered, we can begin
rebuilding for the future.  We do have some financial support promised,
but at this time, those funds are still unavailable.  A little
generosity
goes a long way in times like these.  Not only will it help a cause you
believe in, but enable us to lay the foundation for future growth and
expansion.

I can be reached at (520) 424-3581 nearly anytime day or night, as
generally, I only go to the post office or bank. I am looking forward to
hearing from you soon.
Sincerely,
Steven R. Elswick  &  T.  Michelle Elswick       
Publisher  &  Customer Service Manager
(520) 424-3581
exotic casagrande.com


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Did Depleted Uranium cause Gulf War Syndrome?  See:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgnnws02001.html

(be sure you get the complete URL.)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  2 22:30:54 2000
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Dean writes:

>Nope.  There are several methods to stop cancer, heart and circulatory
>problems, diabetes and many other major diseases right now!  Even
>retardation (and autism, ADD, etc) is treatable -- and more
>importantly, preventable in most cases.
>
>But you won't find this out from the AMA or most MDs.

Hi Dean,

If you are referring to some of the electrotherapy techniques, then I would
agree.  I am still studying them, but the Rife techniques and the Reich
techniques are the ones that people have recommended to me.  My Mother was
extremely ill with some kind of flu infection when she was living in
Australia, and a friend recommended an accupunturist that lived in the area.
She said that she was so sick that she could barely walk when she went in
there and this guy hooked her up to an electronic device for I think about a
half an hour, after which she practically flew out of the place.  She said
that the cure was almost immediate.

She talked to the guy and he said that he had built a similar device in his
homeland in Greece, and that when he announced his findings, he got death
threats,  his house got ransacked and later burned to the ground.  He left
the country for Australia after that to protect his family.  He said that he
had successfully treated a large number of bacterial, and viral diseases
including AIDS, and he had success with cancer as well.

>However, I somewhat agree with you that GM foods aren't a big deal --
>only forced hybridization.  We (the human race) don't really need GM
>foods to feed people (food production isn't the problem, it's food
>distribution that keeps some groups of people starving).  IMO, GM is
>being used to "lock in" farmers to seed companies.
>
>PS:  I live in the middle of seed production country, with lots of big
>and little seed companies growing fields of normal hybrids and GM
>seeds all around me (literally -- my house is surrounded by these
>fields).
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

Here I mostly agree with you, but there have been some things recently
learned that you might want to know.  Hybridization can be achieved simply
by cross pollenation, and it happens all the time naturally.  If you
successfully do it in lab just by experimenting with pollen switching, as
has been safely done for over well over 100 years, then I don't see anything
too bad about it.  Gene splicing is a little different, and there are three
strategies that I have read about that have been used here and in the third
world that have had bad results.

1.  The most of innoccuous of these has been the creation of a seed that
produces a sterile plant.  This was done so that the farmers could not
harvest the seeds and grow their own plants later.  When I say innoccous, I
only mean that I don't know of any other negative side effects other than
the business reasons for doing this.

2.  Some strains were developed by seed companies that produced a plant that
was resistant that the deleterious effects of that company's chemical
herbicidal and pesticidal poisons.  Monsanto did this, I know, and others
have probably followed similar strategies.  This was done so that the farmer
could guarantee a weed and pestfree crop by increasing the dosages used of
the herbicides and pesticides on the crop.  The result was that the land in
which that crop was produced could not be used for anything else thereafter.
In fact, if the land is flooded anytime thereafter, the pesticides and
herbicides in the soil get relocated with the water, and both poisons were
pretty "broadband" in their killing effects.  We found this out in Florida
in a big way.  One area of land around Lake Apopka that the EPA tried to
actively remediate for 10 years still contained enough poison to kill
thousands of animals immediately after it was flooded.

3.  Another strategy was to genedically modify the plant so that the
pesticides were actually produced by the plant itself.  This, to me, is
really insane, but that is what they did.  In other words, the food is
supposedly poisonous to pests, but not to us.  I don't believe it.

I read not too long ago that one of the major seed companies, Havarta or
Ivarta, I would have to look it up was promising to phase out all of its GM
crop line.  If you consider though, that they have been consciously and
intentionally lying to us for all these years about the effects, I wouldn't
believe them in a million years.  They will just try and sneak something
else into the food. Cargil was caught trying to patent the genetic structure
of natural, indigenous plants in the Amazon recently because of those
plants' medicinal qualities.  These guys are nuts, and should be removed
from society for a good long while.  I don't care who they are, or how much
money they have, they can't do that to people.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 00:43:51 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:39:07 -0700
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I had posted:
>
>For the Geomagnetic EMF:  V = vBL = 1.0*5.0E-5*0.30 = 1.5E-5 (volts).
>For  0.050 volts from a Magnetogravity B Field, Bmg = 0.050/1.5E-5 = 3.33E3 Tesla!
>
>For a 1.0 meter current loop at the center of the Earth:
>
> 0.02583*5.98E24 = 1.54E23 Ampere-Meters,
> then  Bmg = uo*1.54E23/(2*r) = 1.94E17 Tesla.
>
> Then at the Earth's surface Bmg for a 1.0 meter current loop = 1.94E17/(6.38)^2 = 4.77E3 Tesla
> which isn't too far off the calculated 3.33E3 Tesla.
>
Since the measured 0.050 volts is an RMS value, multiplying:

3.33E3*(2)^1/2 = 4.71E3 Tesla, which is in very close agreement with the above 4.77E3  value
for the Magnetogravity Field, Bmg.

Regards,    Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 01:23:24 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Gulf War Syndrome Caused by DU
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Yikes - spookey stuff. Fortunately the story pointed to at the bottom 
of the page contains an antidote for the mood the first story puts 
you in:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgneur01005.html

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



>Did Depleted Uranium cause Gulf War Syndrome?  See:
>
>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgnnws02001.html
>
>(be sure you get the complete URL.)
>
>Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 01:49:44 2000
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Surprisingly a simple D.C. circuit comprised of a 3 volt battery feeding
a  resistor/s in series with a current loop (a 14 ga copper wire ~ 0.1 meter diameter)
does not act as a D.C. circuit, but rather as a series A.C. RL circuit as evidenced by
the current and voltage drop across the resistor/s!

V = [(IR)^2 + (IL)^2]^1/2 = I (R^2 + Xl^2)^1/2  = IZ

Where Z = (R^2 + Xl^2)^1/2,

Xl is the inductive reactance, 2(pi)fL (at the 3.1 Megahertz Magnetogravity frequency
and a Z of 20 ohms the inductance L ~ = 1.0 Microhenrys

With the Current Loop shorted out the circuit reverts to being a simple D.C. circuit
inferring that the ~ 4.7 KiloTesla/ 3.1 Megahertz, Magnetogravity Field is interacting with the
current loop.

But, to measure a voltage change, dV , the loop Must have a current flow, and be in Motion.

Strange...

Regards,     Frederick




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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 2:46 AM -0700 9/3/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>But, to measure a voltage change, dV , the loop Must have a current 
>flow, and be in Motion.

Any difference betweencontinuous and accelerating motion?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 02:31:45 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Rick wrote:


> At 2:46 AM -0700 9/3/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >But, to measure a voltage change, dV , the loop Must have a current 
> >flow, and be in Motion.
> 
> Any difference between continuous and accelerating motion?

Hard to tell, Rick.  Letting the loop (encased in a "baggie" and two layers of Al foil)
swing/gyrate is a form of acceleration which is tracked by the analog meter (needle swings)
until it comes to rest.

I suggest a motor-driven loop with slip/commutator rings which also makes it
an accelerated system v^2/r. The armature out of an electric motor sans field coils
but with brushes should do nicely.

However,  watch out for Joe Newman's lawyers.    :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 09:24:49 2000
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Hi,
   This is sort of off topic but I found a neat thingie to use on your
website. If you own a site and you update and add to it frequently some
of your visitors might want to get automatic notices when this happens.
There is a FREE service called Mind It which will do this for people.
They just plug in the url of the page they want to be notified of
updates on and when you update it automatically sends them an e mail
note. I am going to put it on my site. It is free and you don't get
anything for using it either so this isn't a "money" message. It is just
something I thought some members might be able to find useful.
MJ
http://mindit.netmind.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 09:43:50 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Yikes - spookey stuff. Fortunately the story pointed to at the bottom
> of the page contains an antidote for the mood the first story puts
> you in:
> 
> http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgneur01005.html

Aww, come on, Rick.  That was a serious article on DU.

(Hmmm.  If I could get some of those in your article, I'd never have to
leave home!) :-)

Terry

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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 1:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
> 
> Rick wrote:
> 
> > At 2:46 AM -0700 9/3/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > >But, to measure a voltage change, dV , the loop Must have a current
> > >flow, and be in Motion.
> >
> > Any difference between continuous and accelerating motion?
> 
> Hard to tell, Rick.  Letting the loop (encased in a "baggie" and two layers of Al foil)
> swing/gyrate is a form of acceleration which is tracked by the analog meter (needle swings)
> until it comes to rest.
> 
> I suggest a motor-driven loop with slip/commutator rings which also makes it
> an accelerated system v^2/r. The armature out of an electric motor sans field coils
> but with brushes should do nicely.
> 
> However,  watch out for Joe Newman's lawyers.    :-)

We've already determined that the tin hats are not effective unless
grounded.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 10:44:01 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field


Terry wrote:
> 
> We've already determined that the tin hats are not effective unless
> grounded.

Yup. I wouldn't bet the farm on it until it was tested in a well shielded/grounded
chamber. However, if it is electrical noise pickup, why does it have to have
a current flowing in the loop, and be in motion? Otherwise Zip.

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Terry
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 10:47:18 2000
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>Did Depleted Uranium cause Gulf War Syndrome?  See:
>
>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgnnws02001.html
>
>(be sure you get the complete URL.)
>
>Terry

***{For massive detail on this subject, go to http://vzajic.tripod.com/,
and click on "Table of Contents." Since I haven't had time to verify the
calculations given on this website, I cannot say for sure that the
information given is accurate, but based on a brief perusal, it looks very
impressive. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 10:58:07 2000
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Hi All,
   Remember my H2 ou formula? Well, I'm finally updating my website and
I have that up now if anyone wants to refer to it for anything. I used
the "Mind It" service on that page as well. It isn't really complete yet
because, as I posted it, I see some gaping holes I forgot to fill. But I
will be adding to that as well. I am also going to be putting up a
"links" page to other people's free energy sites so if you have such a
site and would like it included just email me the url.
MJ
url: http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/h2ouformula.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 11:55:52 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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In a message dated 09/02/2000 5:11:00 AM, Eugene Mallove wrote:

<< I am in complete agreement with George Holz's view, summarized by Jed 
below.
>A
>few weeks ago, George Holz explained that according to the latest Mills
>theory, the hydrinos produce all the heat in Ni CF, but with Pd they cause
>aneutronic nuclear fusion, and contribute only a tiny fraction of total
>heat directly. That seems contrived to me. >>

Yes, and I don't think it's Mills' view.  

Mills did explain in the early 1990s that all the excess heat in his 
experiments was being caused by hydrino formation, and that there was no cold 
fusion in his experiments at all (neither nuclear reactions nor nuclear 
products), because he was using H (ordinary light hydrogen) rather than D 
(deuterium, heavy hydrogen).  

But Mills also explained in the early 1990s that almost all the excess heat 
in cold fusion experiments (experiments using D) was being caused by the 
formation of deuterinos, the heavy hydrogen equivalent of hydrinos.

It wasn't the metal that counted the most in distinguishing Mills' catalytic 
reaction from cold fusion, it was using the right catalysts with H rather 
than D.  With deuterium, Mills' Coulombic Annihilation Fusion (CAF) did 
predict small amounts of nuclear products, principally tritium and the 
associated protons, and also, to a lesser extent, helium-3, but those nuclear 
products produced only a tiny fraction of the excess heat even in experiments 
using deuterium.

In Mills, Good & Shaubach 1994, Mills interpreted Yamaguchi's data to show 
that what Yamaguchi was seeing wasn't helium-4 but rather dideuterino 
molecules.

What's changed since the early 1990s is that Mills has found that the 
principal ash of the heat-producing hydrino (or deuterino) reaction isn't gas 
but rather chemicals, though that wouldn't exclude the formation of a small 
amount of gas, too.  

It seems to me that McKubre's interesting experiments using deuterium and 
Arata's special DS palladium cathodes can best be interpreted by Mills' 
theory.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 12:36:42 2000
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Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:36:27 -0700
From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
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> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >
> > Yikes - spookey stuff. Fortunately the story pointed to at the bottom
> > of the page contains an antidote for the mood the first story puts
> > you in:
> >
> > http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/03/stifgneur01005.html
> 

Question:  That web site and others say depleted U is weapons
grade(U235), whereas
I'd always assumed that "depleted" meant depleted of U235 (U238, the
remains
after enrichment), which seemed more than logical to me, since all they
want
in a bullet is high density.  I don't think U is particularly
radioactive, but
may be chemically toxic, I'd guess no more than the lead normally used
in bullets. 

What's the story here?

--
Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 13:18:59 2000
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At 11:51 AM -0700 9/3/00, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Aww, come on, Rick.  That was a serious article on DU.

I know. Thus the extra desire on my part for diversion.

The implications of this are devastating. And besides, I always 
wanted to get some DU for AG experiments. I know it's just the dust, 
but I don't think you can have any "solid" material around without 
having to deal with at least some small amout of dust and oxides 
sloughing off under normal handling.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:41:36 2000
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Hoyt writes:
>Question:  That web site and others say depleted U is weapons
>grade(U235), whereas
>I'd always assumed that "depleted" meant depleted of U235 (U238, the
>remains
>after enrichment), which seemed more than logical to me, since all they
>want
>in a bullet is high density. 

This was something I questioned too, and it may just be a journalistic
error.  Normally I think, "weapons grade" refers to U238 because of its use
in nuclear bombs as the fissile material.  DU or U235 is also used as a
bomb, shell or bullet material here, but obviously just as a coating.  Bob
Eachus I think, explained some years ago here, that he thought that the
material did do some fissioning under extreme impact, which caused a great
deal of heat to be released, and the purpose of that was so that it would be
able to penetrate armoured vehicle bodies, and concrete bunkers.  He said
that the idea was that the with the shells at least, the explosion would
take place on the inside of the tank or whatever after the penetration
instead of the outside.

Since both U's are now extensively used for bullets and ordinance of all
kinds, I guess the term weapon's grade could be used, but then you would
need to delineate between the usages.  In all probability, the original use
of the term was meant to downplay the danger of U235 to the public, which,
in my opinion, was a grave disservice.

 I don't think U is particularly
>radioactive, but
>may be chemically toxic, I'd guess no more than the lead normally used
>in bullets. 

Not true.  You can look it the branching ratios and isotope ratios in any
table of elements, like WebElements.  There is a very small amount
radioactive material in Lead, but all of Uranium is radioactive.  The
daughter products are always present as well, and most of those are
radioactive.  It is very dangerous stuff, even without enrichment.  The
nuclear industry in this country has always used linguistic manuveurs to
downplay the dangers of specific radioactive materials to the public because
of the enormous industry that was built around the bomb during WWII.  They
told enormous lies, and took enormous risks with the lives of our people for
money.

The Manhattan Project commanded so much money that every businessman went
money blind crazy to the danger of the actual reality of the situation.  It
was an entire "instant industry", a dream come true for so many construction
workers, and other contractors that they just could not stop even after they
had enough bombs to blow up the entire world.  It was what magicians call a
"willing suspension of belief in reality" in return for the promise of the
enormous profits to be had that caused the nuclear power and weapons
industry to become what it is today - a seemingly unstoppable nightmare.
Now this stuff is everywhere, and they are lying about that.  They are using
it, giving it away and selling it all over the world every day, and they
keep demanding more, more, more.

There has to be a loud, immediate, international public outcry to the effect
that the use of Depleted Uranium on weapons has to be stopped right now.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:52:20 2000
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Hi All,
   I have built my "Links to Societies Devoted to Hydrogen" page 
url: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/SOCIETIES.html
Hopefully there are some useful links there for everyone.
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 20:14:15 2000
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Hi Mitchell,
   As I said; it is a FAKE! It was supposed to be mildly entertaining,
many people did enjoy it. The face is Richard Hoegland. No, I'm sure
that NASA doesn't have any info. I don't think many people took it
seriously.
MJ

Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Hi All,
> >   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
> >MJ<grin>
> >http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm
> 
> ***{I don't normally reply to the same message twice, but I can't shake the
> feeling that (a) I've seen that specific face somewhere before, and (b)
> that the picture shown on the above website has been doctored. Moreover, I
> have not succeeded in finding confirmation that NASA was the source of the
> story. Do you have any info that would alleviate these suspicions? --MJ}***

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: New face on mars!!!
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>Hi All,
>   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
>MJ<grin>
>http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm

***{I don't normally reply to the same message twice, but I can't shake the
feeling that (a) I've seen that specific face somewhere before, and (b)
that the picture shown on the above website has been doctored. Moreover, I
have not succeeded in finding confirmation that NASA was the source of the
story. Do you have any info that would alleviate these suspicions? --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 20:31:53 2000
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>>Hi All,
>>   I found this breaking news story and copied it. Pretty cool!
>>MJ<grin>
>>http://members.xoom.com/enki_12/epbimages/face.htm
>
>***{I don't normally reply to the same message twice, but I can't shake the
>feeling that (a) I've seen that specific face somewhere before, and (b)
>that the picture shown on the above website has been doctored. Moreover, I
>have not succeeded in finding confirmation that NASA was the source of the
>story. Do you have any info that would alleviate these suspicions? --MJ}***

It's not Elvis, so who cares?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 20:43:07 2000
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Experimental Setup:

Two 1.5 volt "C" batteries in series in a holder feeding a 15 ohm resistor (1/2 watt)
in series with a single turn 14 Ga copper Current Loop ~ 0.1 meter diameter.

Current,  0.125 amperes

Voltage, 2.96 volts

Resistance,  15.1 ohms

Power in resistor = 0.125^2*15.1 = 0.236 watts

Xl of the loop,  20 ohms

Z of the series circuit,  (R^2 + Xl^2)^1/2 ~ = 24.2 ohms

Voltage-Current Phase, tan Xl/R = 20/15.1 =  1.333

IOW, the voltage leads the current by 53.13 deg.  ELI the ICE Man. :-)

Xl = 2(pi)f *L        3.1 Megahertz,  L = 20/[2(pi)*3.1E6] = 1.02 microhenry

When the current loop encased in a plastic "baggie" and completely covered with
two layers of aluminum foil, hanging down from the work table like a plumb bob is
struck with a plastic rod, and set in motion, the voltage drop across the resistor or the
current loop
read with an analog voltmeter changes by 50 millivolts or more, but returns to the
initial value when the loop is at rest.

Why is a simple "D.C. circuit" doing this?   :-)

Regards,      Frederick


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Hi all, 
How about a hydrogen pill? Here's the url of the guy who makes them:
http://www.powerball.net/inside/index.shtml
MJ

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Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 01:08:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: New face on mars!!!
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>Hi Mitchell,
>   As I said; it is a FAKE! It was supposed to be mildly entertaining,
>many people did enjoy it. The face is Richard Hoegland. No, I'm sure
>that NASA doesn't have any info. I don't think many people took it
>seriously.
>MJ

***{So your original post, by your own admission, was a lie? In that case,
I should not be surprised that, when I searched back through all of the
messages I had from you subsequent to your original post on this topic, I
failed to find the alleged follow-up in which you said it was a fake. I
guess your claim to have posted such a follow-up was a lie as well.

In any case, I have, in fact, noticed that I have been pretty much the only
person in this group who has been taking your musings seriously. Rest
assured: it will not happen again, because you just earned a slot in my
killfile. Bye.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:25:00 2000
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Hi All,
   I have added my latest version of the overunity by the use of
multiple cells in series for electrolysis to my website. Go to the url
for the "my ideas" page and click the "Multi Cell Update" link if you
want to read it.
http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/myideas.html
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 00:24:56 2000
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Subject: Re: How about an H2 pill?
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MJ writes:
>Hi all, 
>How about a hydrogen pill? Here's the url of the guy who makes them:
>http://www.powerball.net/inside/index.shtml
>MJ

It's not the worst idea in the world, but maybe not the best either.  Take
the example of generating electricity for a house for example.  These are
very rough numbers of course, and I am weighting all the efficiencies, etc.
in favor of the Powerballs, but you will get the idea.

The Powerballs and water will deliver 11kW per gallon at a 100% conversion
rate.  A small house average use of electricity is around 5kW per hour, so
lets say it needs 120kWH per day.  That would be about 11 gallons of
Powerballs and water per day which would be a fairly large volume of space.
It is pretty obvious that the delivery and pick up service for something
like this would have to be on the order of every other day or twice a week,
or else you would have to build 2 quite large storage places for both the
used and unused balls, I would think.

I realize that this guy is talking about cars, but the idea still holds.  A
"hydrogen station" would have to have the same relative sized storage
facilities, and would still have the same distribution costs both ways, from
the production facility and to the recycling facility.  Have your numbers
worked out any better?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 02:37:09 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Fred writes:
>Why is a simple "D.C. circuit" doing this?   :-)
>
>Regards,      Frederick

Hi Fred,

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but maybe not.  People have
reported the extra low frequencies that are either generated by the Earth or
by other means, can penetrate all but the best shielding.  If you are
rotating a loop, you are cutting the flux lines, and assuming the current
remains at .125 amps, and you get a change of 50 millivolts, I don't see
that much power there.  Wouldn't the magnetic field strength of the Earth be
enough to do this?  I know you've been throwing out a bunch of calcs, and I
probably missed it.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 04:05:55 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Experimental Setup:
> 
> Two 1.5 volt "C" batteries in series in a holder feeding a 15 ohm resistor (1/2 watt)
> in series with a single turn 14 Ga copper Current Loop ~ 0.1 meter diameter.
> 
> Current,  0.125 amperes
> 
> Voltage, 2.96 volts
> 
> Resistance,  15.1 ohms
> 
> Power in resistor = 0.125^2*15.1 = 0.236 watts
> 
> Xl of the loop,  20 ohms

What is this Xl of 20 ohms?
If this a impedance of the loop you calculated, what is the frequency you base on? 
I think it is a pure DC experiment.
> 
> Z of the series circuit,  (R^2 + Xl^2)^1/2 ~ = 24.2 ohms
> 
> Voltage-Current Phase, tan Xl/R = 20/15.1 =  1.333
> 
> IOW, the voltage leads the current by 53.13 deg.  ELI the ICE Man. :-)
> 
> Xl = 2(pi)f *L        3.1 Megahertz,  L = 20/[2(pi)*3.1E6] = 1.02 microhenry
> 

Where this 3.1 MHz comes?


> When the current loop encased in a plastic "baggie" and completely covered with
> two layers of aluminum foil, hanging down from the work table like a plumb bob is
> struck with a plastic rod, and set in motion, the voltage drop across the resistor or the
> current loop
> read with an analog voltmeter changes by 50 millivolts or more, but returns to the
> initial value when the loop is at rest.
> 

Anyway, beside your calculations 50 milivolts is anomalous. 
Is the 15 ohms is stationary (at rest) and the probes, when the bag is on move?

Do you think the impedance of the loop or the area it may pass some flux, is correlated to the effect?
you may alternately replace the loop with a twisted pair shorted at one end of same length of conductor used on the loop (0.15 meter).

I would also assert that non grounded shield covering the bag does is not efficiently to stop electrical fields interfere the loop inside.


> Why is a simple "D.C. circuit" doing this?   :-)
> 
> Regards,      Frederick

Did you hold the bag in various angles and see the current is same for the all angles?

Is the effect related to position or to velocity or to the acceleration or more higher of derivatives :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field


>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > Experimental Setup:
> >
> > Two 1.5 volt "C" batteries in series in a holder feeding a 15 ohm resistor (1/2 watt)
> > in series with a single turn 14 Ga copper Current Loop ~ 0.1 meter diameter.
> >
> > Current,  0.125 amperes
> >
> > Voltage, 2.96 volts
> >
> > Resistance,  15.1 ohms
> >
> > Power in resistor = 0.125^2*15.1 = 0.236 watts
> >
> > Xl of the loop,  20 ohms
>
> What is this Xl of 20 ohms?

The inductive reactance X sub l , Hamdi
> If this a impedance of the loop you calculated, what is the frequency you base on?
> I think it is a pure DC experiment.

The frequency is unknown, and apparently it IS NOT a PURE D.C. EPERIMENT!
> >
> > Z of the series circuit,  (R^2 + Xl^2)^1/2 ~ = 24.2 ohms
> >
> > Voltage-Current Phase, tan Xl/R = 20/15.1 =  1.333
> >
> > IOW, the voltage leads the current by 53.13 deg.  ELI the ICE Man. :-)
> >
> > Xl = 2(pi)f *L        3.1 Megahertz,  L = 20/[2(pi)*3.1E6] = 1.02 microhenry
> >
>
> Where this 3.1 MHz comes?

It was picked as a value to calculate the INDUCTANCE.
>
>
> > When the current loop encased in a plastic "baggie" and completely covered with
> > two layers of aluminum foil, hanging down from the work table like a plumb bob is
> > struck with a plastic rod, and set in motion, the voltage drop across the resistor or the
> > current loop
> > read with an analog voltmeter changes by 50 millivolts or more, but returns to the
> > initial value when the loop is at rest.
> >
>
> Anyway, beside your calculations 50 milivolts is anomalous.
Right.
> Is the 15 ohms is stationary (at rest) and the probes, when the bag is on move?
Stationary of course.
>
> Do you think the impedance of the loop or the area it may pass some flux, is correlated to the
effect?

You build it and fiigure it out for yourself.
> you may alternately replace the loop with a twisted pair shorted at one end of same length of
conductor used on the loop (0.15 meter).
The leads to the loop are twisted.
>
> I would also assert that non grounded shield covering the bag does is not efficiently to stop
electrical fields interfere the loop inside.
Probably not , but the loop MUST have a current flow AND BE IN MOTION to get the voltage swing.
>
>
> > Why is a simple "D.C. circuit" doing this?   :-)
> >
> > Regards,      Frederick
>
> Did you hold the bag in various angles and see the current is same for the all angles?

Do ask so many questions, build the thing and figure it out for youself.  :-)
>
> Is the effect related to position or to velocity or to the acceleration or more higher of
derivatives :)

It is acceleration sensitive, that is the whole point.

The 3.1 Megahertz Magnetogravity Field is a TIME DILATED FIELD VARIATION from
the ACCELERATED FRAME of the fundamental particles/quarks, that surround ANY MASS.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 06:15:52 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

When you have a Magnetogravity Field of a calculated intensity of ~ 4.7 KILOTESLA
at ~ 3.1 Megahertz permeating everything on the surface of the Earth, Knuke, you pay attention
to what happens to a Current Loop that acts like a 50+ millivolt generator when it is
accelerated.

The interaction with the geomagnetic field woud only generate ~ 15 MICROVOLTS.

Frederick.


> Fred writes:
> >Why is a simple "D.C. circuit" doing this?   :-)
> >
> >Regards,      Frederick
>
> Hi Fred,
>
> I'm sure that this has been mentioned before, but maybe not.  People have
> reported the extra low frequencies that are either generated by the Earth or
> by other means, can penetrate all but the best shielding.  If you are
> rotating a loop, you are cutting the flux lines, and assuming the current
> remains at .125 amps, and you get a change of 50 millivolts, I don't see
> that much power there.  Wouldn't the magnetic field strength of the Earth be
> enough to do this?  I know you've been throwing out a bunch of calcs, and I
> probably missed it.
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 06:32:16 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Fred writes:
>When you have a Magnetogravity Field of a calculated intensity of ~ 4.7
KILOTESLA
>at ~ 3.1 Megahertz permeating everything on the surface of the Earth,
Knuke, you pay attention
>to what happens to a Current Loop that acts like a 50+ millivolt generator
when it is
>accelerated.
>
>The interaction with the geomagnetic field woud only generate ~ 15 MICROVOLTS.
>
>Frederick.

OK, but that would be for an unpowered loop.  I'm wondering if there is an
offset that would be applied to powered loops.  Here is why, in any energy
exhange you calculate the force of the motion which, in the case of a
generator would be the motion of the loop against the field lines.  However,
with a powered loop, you have the additional motion of electrons going
through the loop, as well as the rest of the circuit (your resistor,
battery, twisted pair, whatever).  In energy exhanges involving plasmas for
example, one helical plasma can absorb the energy of another if they are
brought together at 90 degree angles.  If there are any energetic components
travelling along the field line, they may be united and absorbed by the
current flowing through the powered loop.  Perhaps that is where the gain is
coming from.  I don't think this is new, by the way, and I think it may have
been a design issue with any extremely low wattage device like a pacemaker,
or even some computer circuitry that would possibly have to perform under
conditions where it would spin orthogonally to the Earth's magnetic field.
Just a thought, anyway.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Good thinking, Knuke.  At lot of head scratching can come out of a $2.00 experiment. :-)

Frederick


> Fred writes:
> >When you have a Magnetogravity Field of a calculated intensity of ~ 4.7
> KILOTESLA
> >at ~ 3.1 Megahertz permeating everything on the surface of the Earth,
> Knuke, you pay attention
> >to what happens to a Current Loop that acts like a 50+ millivolt generator
> when it is
> >accelerated.
> >
> >The interaction with the geomagnetic field would only generate ~ 15 MICROVOLTS.
> >
> >Frederick.
> 
> OK, but that would be for an unpowered loop.  I'm wondering if there is an
> offset that would be applied to powered loops.  Here is why, in any energy
> exhange you calculate the force of the motion which, in the case of a
> generator would be the motion of the loop against the field lines.  However,
> with a powered loop, you have the additional motion of electrons going
> through the loop, as well as the rest of the circuit (your resistor,
> battery, twisted pair, whatever).  In energy exhanges involving plasmas for
> example, one helical plasma can absorb the energy of another if they are
> brought together at 90 degree angles.  If there are any energetic components
> travelling along the field line, they may be united and absorbed by the
> current flowing through the powered loop.  Perhaps that is where the gain is
> coming from.  I don't think this is new, by the way, and I think it may have
> been a design issue with any extremely low wattage device like a pacemaker,
> or even some computer circuitry that would possibly have to perform under
> conditions where it would spin orthogonally to the Earth's magnetic field.
> Just a thought, anyway.
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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>
>
>I don't think that your assessment of the ability of these chemical and
>biological agents to cause retardation and cancer are correct, either.  In
>fact, I know it is not.  Get a can of common household RAID, and spray a
>little on yourself anywhere on your body.

What are you, nuts? The directions on the can say to leave the room 
when you spray it. I've been poisoned too many times by chemicals. 
Fortunately I know how to remove them from my body.  But I realize 
that they are absolutely escencial to getting certain jobs done. I 
don't appreciate chemical agriculture, and I try to buy organic when 
I can. If the public were willing to purchase a premium  organic or 
even Biodynamic produce it could be supplied to them,  but it would 
take a large increase in the agricultural work force and a concurrent 
increase in price in order to do it. The bottom line is that most 
Americans like processed food. The companies that produce it are just 
filling a demand. As the demand for organic food has increased more 
farmers are producing it and the price has remained relatively steady.
>
>
>The IQ scores have been recorded now for at least 4 generations that I know
>of, so there is nothing about the current trend of lowering scores that
>would indicate that Nature had anything to do with the problem.  Most
>children I meet today are nice kids, but boy are they dumb.

Do you have any stastistical evidence to prove this? I realize that 
popular American culture encourages stupidity, but I don't know that 
the IQ scores are declining.  The Seventh Day Adventist television 
Network, 3ABN has a health program which advocates vegetarianism. 
They ascert that eating a diet high in saturated fat contributes to a 
reduction on oxygen in the blood stream, Lowering the oxygen level 
can't help mental acutiy.


>I don't enjoy
>saying that, but it is true, and there is a reason for it that needs to be
>honestly acknowleged and corrected before things get progressively worse.
>It will take generations for the current damage to be undone.  Nobody with
>any sense whatsoever could possibly defend the continued usage of these
>chemicals or biotechnologies.

I concede that phospothyocynace insectacides are cousins on nerve gas 
and that their use has been show to produce brain damage. I've been 
using to them since I was a teenager and have often noted that their 
smell reminds me of putrafying flesh. But I fail to see how gene 
splicing technology necessarily follows their development, other than 
that they are being done by the same companies. I also fail to see 
that gene splicing has anything to do with the mass stupidity on the 
the part of some segments of the American public. I would ascert that 
gene splicing and stem cell research holds out the best hope that we 
have for repairing the damage that we have done to the biosystem.
>
>I've never heard of Malthus.

Basicly he said that the human population was growing geometrically 
and our ability to produce food was growing at an arithmatic rate. As 
a result the population was going to suffer famine in a few years, 
which would have been in the middle of the nineteenth century. While 
the population has mushroomed, so has our ability to grow food. 
Contrary to Mr. Malthus, we have had a series of colapses in the food 
price as a result of over production leading to the displacement of 
surplus farmers such as myself.


>   I know that biotechnology was
>SOLD as the idea of the future for feeding humanity, but as we have
>blatantly seen, just the opposite has occurred.  The efforts to cover it up
>have been extraordinary as well.  Monsanto was just convicted of threatening
>a Florida television station if they aired any negative reports about the
>bovine growth hormone in cows, and its effect on humans.  Criminally insane
>behavior?  Looks that way to me, and anyone else that has ever lived in fear
>of these bastards.

Monsanto, is in my opinion, a Luciferian Influenced organization. 
That influence could only come, in my opinion, come right from the 
top. Two of their products will serve as examples of their trechery 
against the human race.

BGH is a deal that only a farmer could love. It wears out the cows 
and degrades the product. The farmer does the hard work and most of 
the money goes to Monsanto. On the other hand, there is quite a body 
of evidence that milk and milk products are not good for you see 
http://www.milkno.com

Then there is Nutrasweet, AKA Aspartame. It's approval is a classic 
example of a bureaucracy being influenced by having a revolving door 
with the industry that it regulates. see the website of Mary Nash 
Stoddard for the story on what it does.
>
>
>I also don't know where in the world you get your numbers, but the Europeans
>definitely do NOT spend 50% of their budget on food.

I've been told that Europeans spend twice the percentage of their 
income that we do. I have also been told that they have a socialist 
bureaucracy that governs food production and like all bureaucracies 
has produced high prices, scarcity and poor food quality, but I've 
never been there.


>   The bread is simply
>incredible compared to the processed Wonderbread crap we have to eat here.

We have several whole grain bakeries in the Twincities. The problem 
is that most Americans want to eat white bread. I saw a video on the 
French politician, I believe his name is Bove, who a focal point for 
the movement to preserve traditional food. They also showed French 
people eating at McDonalds, apparently the Paris store is one of 
their top producers. As Elsewhere, they are doing it by choice, 
because they want to eat fatty food. I'm proud to say that I haven't 
eaten any Mcfood for the past 1/4 century, but I'm the minority. As H 
L Menken observed, no one ever lost money underestimating the taste 
of the American public.
>
>  I knew many of the farmers there, and
>they all impressed me as having a very deep respect and reverence for
>Nature, and a consideraton for their fellow man that I just don't see here
>


I have to admit that I see nature as an enemy to be controlled and 
bet to my will.


>That would be
>something that all of them would consider to be criminally insane.  Farmers
>were farmers, and the military was the military.  There was no crossover
>ownership between the food and weapons industries there like there is here.


I don't know that it's military, I think that it's more industrial thinking.

>
>As a result, the food that they grow is more flavorful, robut and full of
>life. It has a higher vitamin content, and the people are healthier and
>smarter.

We produce good food here too, just not very much of it. Your average 
farmer has my mind set, which is the main reason why I quit farming 
and got a job in town


>  They are not governed by retarded oil
>Klansmen from Houston.  In that regard, they ultimately have more freedom
>than we do, and the wisdom to exercise it for the benefit of everyone.

I assume that you are referring to the Republican presidential 
candidate. Remember, George Jr. is decended from the east coast 
aristrocacy. I just heard that the best determinate of how likely a 
man is to be elected president is how closely he is related to the 
Queen of England. Based on that determinate who would be most likely 
to be elected president? Cohlen Powell.


>
>I applaud the efforts that you have made to help people in the developing
>countries, but if you are not careful about how you go about it, you will
>damage them in the long run.


If you include the Green Revolution in Biotechnology, then we have 
helped developing people. Without it they would be starving. Or are 
you referring to my support of the international food shelf program 
of Agape Ministries?

>  I think that when we have found overwhelming
>evidence that certain people and industries have consciously and
>intentionally worked to harm us, then we need to stop them.

They have already won this round. If you think you can stop them you 
are dreaming, you have a better chance of stopping of changing the 
direction of a coal train. Be of good cheer though, I have it on good 
authority though that we will win in the end

Michael, I want to thank you for a very interesting discussion of the 
subject of biotechnology. I'm writing this while I listen to a pastor 
on 3ABN speak on how the  American government is going to join with 
the Roman church in bringing about a one world religion which will be 
the percursor to the one world government. It helps to have an Irish 
sense of humor ( black) about these things.
>
Thomas

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Michael T Huffman wrote:



> >MJ
> 
> It's not the worst idea in the world, but maybe not the best either.  Take
> the example of generating electricity for a house for example.  These are
> very rough numbers of course, and I am weighting all the efficiencies, etc.
> in favor of the Powerballs, but you will get the idea.

Right, it's also nothing really new. H2 from calcium chloride has been
used for many years as a relatively cheap, portable H2 supply.

> 
> The Powerballs and water will deliver 11kW per gallon at a 100% conversion
> rate.  A small house average use of electricity is around 5kW per hour, so
> lets say it needs 120kWH per day.  That would be about 11 gallons of
> Powerballs and water per day which would be a fairly large volume of space.
> It is pretty obvious that the delivery and pick up service for something
> like this would have to be on the order of every other day or twice a week,
> or else you would have to build 2 quite large storage places for both the
> used and unused balls, I would think.


Buying your electricity from the local utility would be cheaper and
easier.
> 
> I realize that this guy is talking about cars, but the idea still holds.  A
> "hydrogen station" would have to have the same relative sized storage
> facilities, and would still have the same distribution costs both ways, from
> the production facility and to the recycling facility.  Have your numbers
> worked out any better?


No it was just something of a novelty and the conversation was on gas
pills somewhere and it seemed to fit in. I emailed the guy who owns the
site with a copy of the H2 overunity formula to get his opinion. His
opinion was "It's silly". I don't like him any more.
MJ
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 16:06:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Hi Frederick,

I did an experiment consisting of a loop of 25 cm diameter closed by 1.5 V battery and the avometer on ammeter mode.
The serial resistor was not necessary as the meter internal resistance at 0.5 A scale enough to drop the current to 300mA
(internal resistance measured as 5 ohms by the digital meter) I did not used the regular probes of the meter, instead I made very tightly connected everything with short connections (plus solder is used for mechanical fixing) and used thick cables as poss

ible. I did soldered battery poles to cables.

Experiment based on this setup gave negative result. There was no slight movement of the needle.  I will try with 11 ohms serial resistor with 3 V battery and measure the voltage drop across it.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Do ask so many questions, build the thing and figure it out for youself.  :-)
> >

> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Hamdi wrote:


>
> Hi Frederick,
>
> I did an experiment consisting of a loop of 25 cm diameter closed by 1.5 V battery and the
avometer on ammeter mode.
> The serial resistor was not necessary as the meter internal resistance at 0.5 A scale enough
to drop the current to 300mA
> (internal resistance measured as 5 ohms by the digital meter) I did not used the regular
probes of the meter, instead I made very tightly connected everything with short connections
(plus solder is used for mechanical fixing) and used thick cables as possible. I did soldered
battery poles to cables.
>
> Experiment based on this setup gave negative result. There was no slight movement of the
needle.  I will try with 11 ohms serial resistor with 3 V battery and measure the voltage drop
across it.

Interesting, thanks.

I put the $10.00 Wal-Mart analog volt-ohm-milliammeter on the lowest resistance scale
and measured the 30 milliampere current with the digital meter. I then hooked the
Current Loop  to the analog meter and moved it about indoors and out away from
the house.

There was substantial swing of the meter needle when the loop was moved about.

This still says that a Current Loop (circle) with a seat of EMF and current flow
will develop a counter EMF when put in motion.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > Do ask so many questions, build the thing and figure it out for youself.  :-)
> > >
>
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> > >
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep  4 17:26:37 2000
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FWIW, Hamdi,

There is a 200 watt 300 ft AM  radio tower (860 KHz) about 1/4 mile
from my house.

To see if this was contributing to the loop EMF I drove out on the range
about 10 miles (as the crow flys) away from the antenna and power line noise
(the range cattle gave me some funny looks).

If anything, with the truck engine shut off, the effect using the analog
ohmmeter and the Current Loop (with and without the aluminum foil shield)
was even more pronounced.

I can't shut off the GPS background though.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick




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Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity Force
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I come in at the middle of this. I am not especially knowledgable about
photons. However, I can think of at least one simple explanation. Let the
photon (in its own rest frame, moving at c, have a SPATIAL, rather than
temporal, oscillation, that is, regions of static + and - electromagnetic
field that are distributed peridically along the direction of propagation.
To one of us outsiders, the spatial oscillations appear like temporal
oscillations as the photon flies by.

> There is obviously a wrong assumption here somewhere. Perhaps SR is
> simply
> wrong, and time contraction doesn't happen. (Extended particle lifetimes
> at
> velocities close to "c" may be exactly that i.e. a physical change occurs
> such that the half life of the particle is actually longer, while time
> doesn't change. One possible reason for such an increase in half life,
> could
> be a real increase in mass).
> No change in time would allow your photon to oscillate.
> 
> >
> >I just don't get it.  If there is nothing to oscillate, and there is no
> >time to oscillate, what exactly IS a photon anyway?  What is there that
> can
> >carry a force from point A to point B, and also appear to oscillate in
> its
> >journey?
> [snip]

=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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>FWIW, Hamdi,
>
>There is a 200 watt 300 ft AM  radio tower (860 KHz) about 1/4 mile
>from my house.
>
>To see if this was contributing to the loop EMF I drove out on the range
>about 10 miles (as the crow flys) away from the antenna and power line noise
>(the range cattle gave me some funny looks).
>
>If anything, with the truck engine shut off, the effect using the analog
>ohmmeter and the Current Loop (with and without the aluminum foil shield)
>was even more pronounced.
>
>I can't shut off the GPS background though.   :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Hi Fred,

I still think this experiment is interesting, especially if you are
recording the numbers.  It tells us something about EM that may be useful.
If you are getting an actual, usable gain of over a magnitude in the
expected power generated, then it is well worth exploring.  I am trying to
figure out a way to engineer/enhance the effect, but only have a couple of
ideas right now.

First, have you tried measuring the power generated by the movement when the
device is unpowered as a reference?

Second, is the power fluctuation a swing, like + and - 25millivolts, or is
it an actual gain of 50millivolts?  Does your meter have a sample and record
function?  My Fluke does, but it is kind of a pain to use.  Many of the
newer ones have RS232 ports that allow you to dump the contents of the
memory into a computer for numerical analysis.

Have you tried reducing the battery power to see if the 50 millivolt swing
is still there?  In other words, there may be two things to look for, a
relationship between the power flowing in the loop, and the amount of swing
or gain, and there may be a threshhold where the interaction of the power
flowing through the loop may not be strong enough to collect or be affected
by the extra energy.

If the the explanation for power swing or gain is as I have described, then
it could provide an explanation for the reported negative resistance
behavior of tunnel diodes in certain regimes, and some flourescent lights
being more efficient than others depending on the orientaion of their
mounting.  It may also be that you could take better advantage of the effect
by properly orienting with respect to the magnetic field lines of the Earth
oscillators like the crystal planes of diodes that normally stay stationary.
It may be that if the input power required to get this effect can be low
enough to drive a diode and still get a gain, then it may turn it into a
free Earth energy amplifier that could be ganged up on a chip into producing
usable amounts of power.  Who knows?  You might actually have something!

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Knuke wrote:
> 
> 
> I still think this experiment is interesting, especially if you are
> recording the numbers.  It tells us something about EM that may be useful.
> If you are getting an actual, usable gain of over a magnitude in the
> expected power generated, then it is well worth exploring.  I am trying to
> figure out a way to engineer/enhance the effect, but only have a couple of
> ideas right now.

To get where you're going you would have to take in account the energy put
into the loop by moving it.
> 
> First, have you tried measuring the power generated by the movement when the
> device is unpowered as a reference?

No. what you see is what you get.  :-)
> 
> Second, is the power fluctuation a swing, like + and - 25millivolts, or is
> it an actual gain of 50millivolts?

No, it is a decrease in voltage reading as the the loop is moved/accelerated, with a
gradual return to the initial reading as the motion ceases.

>  Does your meter have a sample and record
> function?

Not for Ten Bucks at Wal-Mart.  :-)  

> My Fluke does, but it is kind of a pain to use.  Many of the
> newer ones have RS232 ports that allow you to dump the contents of the
> memory into a computer for numerical analysis.
> 
> Have you tried reducing the battery power to see if the 50 millivolt swing
> is still there?

Yes, the experimental circuit was tried at 0.062 amperes and  0.125 amperes
into 30 and 15 ohms respectively with the 3.0 volt battery.  The Analog Ohmmeter
has a 1.5 volt battery and as I stated was delivering 0.030 amperes into the loop.

>  In other words, there may be two things to look for, a
> relationship between the power flowing in the loop, and the amount of swing
> or gain, and there may be a threshhold where the interaction of the power
> flowing through the loop may not be strong enough to collect or be affected
> by the extra energy.

Go for it. There is no free lunch energy-wise the amount of gain is determined by how
much muscle you put into it.
> 
> If the the explanation for power swing or gain is as I have described, then
> it could provide an explanation for the reported negative resistance
> behavior of tunnel diodes in certain regimes, and some flourescent lights
> being more efficient than others depending on the orientaion of their
> mounting.  It may also be that you could take better advantage of the effect
> by properly orienting with respect to the magnetic field lines of the Earth
> oscillators like the crystal planes of diodes that normally stay stationary.
> It may be that if the input power required to get this effect can be low
> enough to drive a diode and still get a gain, then it may turn it into a
> free Earth energy amplifier that could be ganged up on a chip into producing
> usable amounts of power.  Who knows?  You might actually have something!

Far out, but, I'm sticking with the KiloTesla Magnetogravity Field hypothesis.

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 04:24:24 2000
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Hi Fred,

I'm looking at two Used piezoelectric accelerometers listed in the C&H
catalog.  One for $150, and the other for $200.  Do you think your $2 loop
gizmo might be a possible mega breakthrough in that regard? ;)

Knuke
 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 05:43:45 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Some misc. comments:

(1) Fred's 50 millivolt drop when his loop is in motion might be due to a
resistance change brought about by stressing the copper wire, or resistor,
or wire connections.  Hamdi's wire is very thick and rigid, so he obtains a
negative result.  Fred, I think you might consider mounting your loop and
meter on a light but rigid structure and repeating the experiments.  The
fact that the effect is larger for larger resistances is a further
indication that resistance change due to stressing is a good hypothesis.
It may be possible to check this hypothesis simply by hanging weights on
the loop and measuring change in resistance (increased resistance with
increased weight.)

(2) When I suggested shielding with aluminum foil I meant the entire
circuit, not just the coil.  You would have to leave a small hole to read
the meter, but the surface of an LCD display is conductive, so provides
some shielding, if the foil is taped up close to an LCD window.  It would
be handy to convert the current reading to an audible output, so then the
device could be fully shielded.  The anaolog meter output is also very
interesting data, but other provisions need to be made to shield the analog
circuit.  This is of course unnecessary if (1) proves out to be true.

(3) I obtained a 6 mV potential in a 40 turn coil in lateral oscillating
motion with no supplied power.  However, it appears, from my scope reading
that this is, in my experiments, due to momentarily changing the local AC
induction.  This explanation does not acount for Fred's 50 mV change in a
single loop, because Fred's 50 mV single loop effect is 330 times larger
than my 0.15 mV/loop effect, so shielding may not be so important.
However, it may be important in cases where the meter sensing voltage is
very low.

(4) I think it is important to distinguish and control for linear motion
and acceleration vs angular motion and acceleration.

(5)  Fred, you keep clinging to the 3.1 Mhz theory, which was based on the
idea that the quarks are all the same mass, which they are not.  Your
nuclear "frequency", even as computed on your basis, should, due to the two
differing masses of the quarks, be highly varied due to complex multi-body
interactions, possibly with a beat frequency on the order of about 10 - 20
kHz.  I would think, unless global sized localities of nucleii synchronize,
that the radiation would be far more difficult (than observed) to detect
using an ordinary current loop.  Even with some form of collimation, you
still have to show how to satisfy:

   4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]

           + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]

for any mixture of matter generating the electrogravitic radiation, as
described in prior discusssion.

A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
of up to down quarks. A Cavendish experiment would thus give differing
results for lead than for copper or nickel.  The spectrum eminating from
the earth, and the resulting gravitational force, would be dependent on the
composition of the earth.

(6) If the earth is radiating at around 3.1 MHz, then it should be possible
to directly tap this energy, because it does not have the cubic
distribution of ZPE.  A parabolic or spherical reflector, pointed down at
the earth, should be capable of focusing the energy, for example.

(7) If a pre-existing current is necessary to detect the signal, then that
current can be induced in armature coils, as opposed to putting it there
using brushes, in order to build a fast acceleration/motion device.

(8) Fred, it may be helpful if you report, i.e. redundantly report, precise
details of your loop construction and geometry, contacts, and the exact
nature of your applied motion, for each experiment.   It's sometimes
difficult from your reports to tell exactly what you are doing
experimentally.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 05:45:47 2000
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Hi Frederick,

I am waiting the results away from the antenna. BTW, I could try the reverse, going close to an AM antenna and observe the swings.:) If the effect is related to 860 KHz, a non-interesting explanation could be diode-capacitors combination work causing the 

AM signal is rectified and then induced voltage get highpass filtered passing trough a capacitor and deviate readings. the reason that the effect needs a current passing from the circuit is due the rectifying diode needs be on conducting state.

You can check the 860 Khz hypothesis by trying kill the effect by shunting the loop leads and also the meter leads.

But it isnt a really good idea to try to killing the effect this manner because: 1) any effect requiring AC signals may be killed by these capacitors. But If effect survives despite of capacitors it become more mysterious. 2) he he, it would be naive to e

xpect to kill this AM signal by simple shunting capacitors.

Do you have a radio that can tune to 2 x 860 = 1720 kHz and see is your meter contribute to the second harmonic?

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> FWIW, Hamdi,
> 
> There is a 200 watt 300 ft AM  radio tower (860 KHz) about 1/4 mile
> from my house.
> 
> To see if this was contributing to the loop EMF I drove out on the range
> about 10 miles (as the crow flys) away from the antenna and power line noise
> (the range cattle gave me some funny looks).

Dont underestimate bio-energy of the cattle. To take advantage of this energy you must 
swing the loop harmonically with tails :)

> 
> If anything, with the truck engine shut off, the effect using the analog
> ohmmeter and the Current Loop (with and without the aluminum foil shield)
> was even more pronounced.
> 
> I can't shut off the GPS background though.   :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick

Regards, hamdi

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Knuke wrote:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> I'm looking at two Used piezoelectric accelerometers listed in the C&H
> catalog.  One for $150, and the other for $200.  Do you think your $2 loop
> gizmo might be a possible mega breakthrough in that regard? ;)

I thought about that, too.    Maybe so.

But, my interest is in gathering all the background physics I can, applicable to
doing the antigravity experiment/s that Vince is collaborating on. That
function generator set me back $500.00, and there's still lots to do.

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> Knuke
>  
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 05:59:03 2000
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Horace I have a comment about you suggestion of mounting everything on a light rigid structure.

The analog meter should not be moved, as the needle assembly is influencing mechanically.


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> negative result.  Fred, I think you might consider mounting your loop and
> meter on a light but rigid structure and repeating the experiments.  

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 06:21:09 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Time Dilation and Electrostatic Force vs Gravity Force
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At 7:42 PM 9/4/0, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>I come in at the middle of this. I am not especially knowledgable about
>photons. However, I can think of at least one simple explanation. Let the
>photon (in its own rest frame, moving at c, have a SPATIAL, rather than
>temporal, oscillation, that is, regions of static + and - electromagnetic
>field that are distributed peridically along the direction of propagation.
>To one of us outsiders, the spatial oscillations appear like temporal
>oscillations as the photon flies by.


The problem of describing the photon's EM oscillation within its own
reference frame, a problem due to the fact that the photon's lifetime is
zero due to time dilation, is further complicated by the fact that the
distance in the direction of "motion" is also shrunk to zero by the Lorentz
contraction.  If there is no distance involved, then it is not feasible to
distribute the fields over the travel distance, in the photon's reference
frame.  Also, even if it were feasible to do such, there would be problems
with the energy required to impose the fields across the entire volume of
space along the photon's path, though I suppose Heisenburg would allow it,
since the borrowing time is zero.  I guess you just have to chalk the
conceptual problems up to nonsense generated in cases where singularites
exist.  That is a very unsatisfying answer, however.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 06:21:27 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 3:57 PM 9/5/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
>Horace I have a comment about you suggestion of mounting everything on a
>light rigid structure.
>
>The analog meter should not be moved, as the needle assembly is
>influencing mechanically.


Yes, that's true, but that method should work fine using a digital meter.
It is also possible to do a control by using two meters on the structure,
one with the current loop all balled up near the control meter.  If the
control needle does not move much then the live reading should be OK.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 07:04:13 2000
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Fred writes:
>I thought about that, too.    Maybe so.
>
>But, my interest is in gathering all the background physics I can,
applicable to
>doing the antigravity experiment/s that Vince is collaborating on. That
>function generator set me back $500.00, and there's still lots to do.
>
>Regards,  Frederick

Hi Fred,

Yes, I agree, what you are working towards is much more important.  A simple
test for linear motion as Horace has suggested however, would settle the
matter, and it could save a number of industries a bunch of money if it bore
out.  Anybody could do the test, though.  The units that I looked at were
just the sensors, the power supply, logic circuitry was extra, so if you
ditched the battery and the holder, you are looking at an accelerometer that
would cost an OEM less than 10 cents as opposed to $200+.

Another idea is for a brainwave radio reciever, but I'm keeping that one
under my tinfoil hat (now two layers and grounded). ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 08:06:19 2000
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Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:14:07 -0700
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Fans of SciFi will enjoy Sir Arthur C. Clarke's latest book, "The Light
of Other Days", co-authored with Stephen Baxter.  Scientists are able to
open Wormholes using a Casimir Engine made of mode restricting Bucky
Balls.  Photons passing through these ER bridges enable the user to view
any location (and, ultimately any time) instantaneously.  And using
"squeezed vacuum" technology they are able to . . .

Well, I wouldn't want to spoil it, eh?

Clarke explains the basis for his book "Childhood's End" in this novel,
something I had always wondered about.  He makes one small error,
though.  'Chernobyl' means 'Wormwood' in Ukrainian, not Russian as he
says in the book.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 08:16:55 2000
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Horace writes:
>(5)  Fred, you keep clinging to the 3.1 Mhz theory, which was based on the
>idea that the quarks are all the same mass, which they are not.  Your
>nuclear "frequency", even as computed on your basis, should, due to the two
>differing masses of the quarks, be highly varied due to complex multi-body
>interactions, possibly with a beat frequency on the order of about 10 - 20
>kHz.  I would think, unless global sized localities of nucleii synchronize,
>that the radiation would be far more difficult (than observed) to detect
>using an ordinary current loop.  Even with some form of collimation, you
>still have to show how to satisfy:
>
>   4*(q^2)*k/G  =  [gamma_up*m_up + (2/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n2 + n5)/(n1*n4)]
>
>           + [gamma_down*m_down - (1/3)*gamma_e*m_e]*[(n3 + n6)/(n1*n4)]
>
>for any mixture of matter generating the electrogravitic radiation, as
>described in prior discusssion.
>
>A proton consists of two up quarks and a down quark.  A neutron consists of
>two down quarks and an up quark. An up quark has a mass of 336 MeV and
>charge of +2q/3. A down quark has mass of 338 MeV and charge -q/3.  An
>electron has mass of 0.5 MeV and charge of q.  In ordinary matter there is
>no fixed ratio between neutrons and protons. There is thus no fixed ratio
>of up to down quarks. A Cavendish experiment would thus give differing
>results for lead than for copper or nickel.  The spectrum eminating from
>the earth, and the resulting gravitational force, would be dependent on the
>composition of the earth.
>
>(6) If the earth is radiating at around 3.1 MHz, then it should be possible
>to directly tap this energy, because it does not have the cubic
>distribution of ZPE.  A parabolic or spherical reflector, pointed down at
>the earth, should be capable of focusing the energy, for example.
>
>(7) If a pre-existing current is necessary to detect the signal, then that
>current can be induced in armature coils, as opposed to putting it there
>using brushes, in order to build a fast acceleration/motion device.

Hi Horace,

Some pretty good ideas there.  One more might be that if the frequency is
more broadband, then the RF equivilent of a prism would be useful. What I
mean is a prism in reverse.  You input a broad spectrum of frequecies, and
the output would refract and combine into one frequency. What would
something like that be?  A parabolic dish pointed at the ground could serve
as a focusing waveguide for a reverse magnetron (one where the anode and
cathode were reversed) that would be tuned to the collected frequency.  I
think this might also serve as a good stepdown tranformer too, I don't know.
The waveguide could be focused for an ideal depth.  Perhaps the reverse
prism part of the antenna could be a flourescent light tube.

BTW, for those of you messing with Nickle,

www.candhsales.com 

is selling 10lb spools for $35.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 13:04:26 2000
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On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, sno wrote:

> Check it out...
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000905/nj_nec_res.html
> 
> steve

Cool!  Giant magnetoresistance, Colossal magnetoresistance, now
Extraordinary magnetoresistance.  I wonder how it compares in SNR to Hall
effect sensors.

So gold films radically change resistance under magnetism, but only when
sandwiched between semiconductor?  I wonder if this is an electron spin
effect.  (If there's no theory to explain it, it cannot exist, right? ) 

:)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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	Dear Folks,

	What IS Holz's view?


	AND:  What is the common thinking re Cold Fusion in the following
contexts:

	Q:		Is CF the term used for any and all "makes heat"
type reaction systems?

	Q:	Is-are there an additional and-or different term or terms
in use these days for Clod-Fusion-like reactions?

	Example:	Unusual Reaction
			Unconventional Electrochemistry

	Q:	Is-are radiactivity and-or transmutation REQUIRED for CF
and-or CF like reactions?
	Q:	Or is the REQUIREMENT forced into place by persons other
than the investigators of reactions?


On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:  > Jed wrote:  > >If they
find helium, as I expect they will, > I want this list to know that I
disagree with this purely wish-like > assertion, followed by another
assertion about Mills that is also > wish-like.  > >that would be the
final nail in > >the coffin for the Mills theory, as it relates to CF
energy production. > > I am in complete agreement with George Holz's view,
summarized by Jed > below.  > >A > >few weeks ago, George Holz explained
that according to the latest Mills > >theory, the hydrinos produce all the
heat in Ni CF, but with Pd they cause > >aneutronic nuclear fusion, and
contribute only a tiny fraction of total > >heat directly. That seems
contrived to me.  > > Holz's view is not contrived at all.  > > > Anyway,
I hope we find out once > >and for all whether there is anything to it.  >
> Science marches on.  > > > >- Jed > > Gene Mallove >


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 15:48:19 2000
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cc: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: Re: Curious signal Alias... and 1/f
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	Dear Hamdi,

	Magnetometers can be built as simple or very refined.

	What is the proposed use (s)?


				J


On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Very low F signals should be eaxmined for aliasing..if digital
> methods are used... and the 1/f noise corner in modern op amps is usually
> 3 cps or higher... long period signal work is demanding.
> 
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> > At 11:57 PM 8/30/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
> > >Hi Horace,
> > >
> > >According your setup of high impedance, you may captured electrical field
> > >component of the ELF rather than the magnetic one. So if you continue to
> > >try to monitor the signal, you may simultaneously monitor it with a dipole
> > >and a large inductance coil. But the source and the presence of the signal
> > >is unknown, you can not give away from the original setup, unless you
> > >catch the signal.
> > >
> > >Interestingly, I feel there is a possibility that you may get the signal
> > >no matter you choose a different setup. For example, may the signal is on
> > >the main power. Or very strange kind of airborne signal that affect scope
> > >electronics.
> > >
> > >A magnetometer.. is it easy to build one?
> > >
> > >Regards, hamdi
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, I have almost come to the same conclusion.  I have been thinking along
> > the lines of the way my house is grounded.  Utilities are underground in my
> > neighborhood.  There is a standard grounding stake near the power drop at
> > my house, which I think is fairly ineffectual, but, by Alaska code, the
> > system is also grounded to the water system, which is 1" pipe to a well
> > located about 60 m away.  The well drops about 30 m to the water table,
> > where it is effectively grounded.  I live on a glacial morain made up
> > mostly of gravel and clay. In the USA we have a 4 wire system, two isolated
> > power loops from the power transformer to the house, consisting a separate
> > neutral wire, center tapped to the secondary, and the two power leads form
> > the ends of the secondary coil.  I am thinking the coil is both
> > capacitively and inductive linked to the power wiring in the house, which
> > surrounds the coil.  The scope uses the ground wire for its reference
> > ground.   The power transformer is located right next to the well, and I
> > thus is at least nearly grounded to it.  The copper water lines return to
> > the well along a path different from the power, thus there is a very big
> > ground loop antenna in the ground near my house.  The scope thus picks up a
> > signal from the coil that represents the voltage difference, possibly
> > somewhat out of phase, between the house wiring and ground.
> > 
> > To check this hypothesis I simply attached one probe to the neutral wire
> > and compared that signal shape to the coil signal.  There was a similar
> > signal profile, with regard to the low frequency stuff, but not an exactly
> > matching profile.  It is possible there is more to it than this, but I
> > think that is a clue.  I think perhaps the utility distribution network as
> > a whole may be involved.  Somehow tiny low frequency fluctuations in the
> > network supplied peak voltage ends up as a comparatively large signal in my
> > scope.  I also tried attaching one probe to the live 120 V supply, and the
> > profile of the peaks of the voltage followed the coil peak profile fairly
> > well.  I don't know why there would be a demand to the system that starts
> > out as 0.2 Hz and eventually decays to 0.01 Hz over a period of a half hour
> > or so, and tends to start on the hour or half hour.  Could be something to
> > do with HAARP, which is up the road about 120 miles.  I know it is not due
> > to the Alaska State Fair rides, which are a mile away, because the signals
> > persisted last night periodically, even after the fair shut down.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Horace Heffner          
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Folks,
>
>         What IS Holz's view?
>
>         AND:  What is the common thinking re Cold Fusion in the following
> contexts:
>
>         Q:              Is CF the term used for any and all "makes heat"
> type reaction systems?

Cold Fusion is the conventional, generic term which applies to all anomalous
nuclear reactions.  However, this term is not accurate, especially when
applied to the growing number of nonfusion reactions.  I prefer the term
"Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions" which emphasizes the environment
while people who wish to stress a different aspect of the process use "Low
Energy Nuclear Reactions".  "The term "cold fusion" is used only because
everyone identifies this term with the phenomenon.

>
>
>         Q:      Is-are there an additional and-or different term or terms
> in use these days for Clod-Fusion-like reactions?
>
>         Example:        Unusual Reaction
>                         Unconventional Electrochemistry

The most universal generic term is "anomalous nuclear reactions" or sometimes
"anomalous heat".

>
>
>         Q:      Is-are radiactivity and-or transmutation REQUIRED for CF
> and-or CF like reactions?

Required is the presence of a nuclear reaction resulting in an element or
isotope which was not present previously.  This reaction does not have to
produce detectable heat or a radioactive isotope.

>
>         Q:      Or is the REQUIREMENT forced into place by persons other
> than the investigators of reactions?

Skeptics would like to see certain products be produced before they will
believe any anomalous reaction.  However, this requirement on their part does
not change the nature of "cold fusion".  The heat energy claimed by Mills
would be called CANR or LENR only if it results from a nuclear reaction.  At
this point, no evidence exists supporting a nuclear source for the energy.
Indeed the evidence is counter to this idea.

Ed Storms

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	Dear Bill,

	Many of these 'new' effects operate by means of using a magnetic
field to "bias up" a given material ... then we see the change.
	
	Some magnetometer types:

	
	A)	Nuclear "spin" based systems  

		1]	proton in water, benzine etc...
		2]	rubidium
		3]	ferrites' spins

	B)	Mechanical, from 

		1]	Atomic Force Microscope ( or AFM ) 
		2]	vibrating sample, or sensor
		3]	balance types, also single ended
		4]	mechanical optical
		5]	fiber based
		6]	needles
		7]	fluids, powders
		8]	other


v	C)	Saturatable core systems

		1]	Flux Gate ... (so-called)  based, abbreviated FG
		2]	micro FG
		3]	optical-FG

	D)	Magnetic conduction and-or Resistance based systems

		Very nice, many many variations

	E)	Verdet and Faraday rotation methods ... similar to some of
the atomic methods, cited, above in A)  spin methods

	F)	Induction Coil .. the first method used.

	G)	Cryogenic SQUID Based.

	H)	Hall Effect 

	(see how neatly I put Hall Effect under the
			"H" heading!)	( Am, I Coolish? Orwha?)	


	I]	Electrooptical

	J)	Electron beam methods

			
	The above is a partial list.....


						John

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, sno wrote:
> 
> > Check it out...
> > 
> > http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000905/nj_nec_res.html
> > 
> > steve
> 
> Cool!  Giant magnetoresistance, Colossal magnetoresistance, now
> Extraordinary magnetoresistance.  I wonder how it compares in SNR to Hall
> effect sensors.
> 
> So gold films radically change resistance under magnetism, but only when
> sandwiched between semiconductor?  I wonder if this is an electron spin
> effect.  (If there's no theory to explain it, it cannot exist, right? ) 
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 17:07:00 2000
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Subject: Re: Ni CF in Japan
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At 05:17 PM 9/5/2000 -0700, Ed wrote:
>John Schnurer wrote:
>
> >         Dear Folks,
> >
> >         What IS Holz's view?
> >
> >         AND:  What is the common thinking re Cold Fusion in the following
> > contexts:
> >
> >         Q:              Is CF the term used for any and all "makes heat"
> > type reaction systems?
>
>Cold Fusion is the conventional, generic term which applies to all anomalous
>nuclear reactions.  However, this term is not accurate, especially when
>applied to the growing number of nonfusion reactions.  I prefer the term
>"Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions" which emphasizes the environment
>while people who wish to stress a different aspect of the process use "Low
>Energy Nuclear Reactions".  "The term "cold fusion" is used only because
>everyone identifies this term with the phenomenon.



    Cold fusion refers to Pd/D2O systems, and thereafter Ni, Ti, and
various electrochemical and gas loaded systems
   --and to some also includes muon fusion.

    Depending upon which optimal-operating point curves the cold fusion
systems are driven there may be a variety of heat-producing and
product-producing regimes for the same system.  Therefore, it would
be better to consider all of the products in these cold fusion systems.

   Also, cold fusion has physics which appears to be quite conventional for 
materials
in which it occurs.  It may therefore be "anomalous" only because of the
previous failure to examine exactly what physics/chemistry/engineering
predicts for such "cold" temperatures.

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz




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Hello all:

On the JLNlabs Egroups list, a large discussion is taking place based on
some results obtained by Jean-Louis Naudin. His work involves
replication of the weight loss effects observed by Prof. Stavros
Dimitriou, and he has apparently achieved positive results. The measure
of gravitational reduction on the device was about 1.9%. Ben Thomas,
another member of the group, has also reported a successful replication,
with a loss of 1.2%. Both Jean-Louis Naudin and Ben Thomas deduced the
reductions listed by observing changes in the time of swing for the
device when is was acting as a pendulum. Jean-Louis' page on the device
is here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/stvrfpend.htm

I have apparently been the next in line to achieve positive results. My
device was essentially identical to that of Jean-Louis, but was powered
with a 9V supply, and used a 2N2222 transistor for the oscillator. I
suspended the device by a tether from the ceiling of my laboratory, and
let the device rest against the top of a digital scale. The scale
resolution is only 50 grams, so I pulled the tether until the weight
reading on the scale was less than 50 grams. After oscillation of the
device stopped, the reading was about 27.2 grams. I secured the power
supply wires steadily, and moved them around without applying power to
see if the readings on the scale were affected. They were not. I
connected power to the battery, and observed the weight reading to
change from 27.2 grams to between 26.8 and 26.9 grams, for a reduction
of about 300 milligrams.

Next, changed the configuration a bit, and ensured a better connection
from the 100MHz oscillator to the antenna structure. I then applied
power again, with the weight reading centered on 17.9 grams. In this
test, the reading changed to 16.8 grams, with fluctuations between 17.2
and 16.7. The weight loss then was between 700 mg and 1.1 grams.

This is a very fascinating effect, but I do not know if there could be
some form of artifact that has not been thought of yet. I would
appreciate the opinions of all on this list who are interested. 

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 20:47:37 2000
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From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
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"Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote:
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> On the JLNlabs Egroups list, a large discussion is taking place based on
> some results obtained by Jean-Louis Naudin. His work involves
> replication of the weight loss effects observed by Prof. Stavros
> Dimitriou, and he has apparently achieved positive results. The measure
> of gravitational reduction on the device was about 1.9%. Ben Thomas,...

It sure sounds consistent with my prediction based on Dewey Larson's
reciprocal
system that the mass of a conductor reduces when fields are generated
from them.

Note that a reactionless thruster can be realized in several ways using
this
effect, the most efficient I can think of being the offsetting of
centrifugal force
which will amplify the force by the millions, e.g. a homopolar motor
with
the brushes only part way around the periphery so the mass is reduced
only
on one side.

See http://www.interpres.cz/sr/ce/dimmot.htm
-- 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 20:56:00 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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Cockpit Troubles,

After finally following Lynn Kurtz, Hamdi's and Vince's adamant advice, I started going
painstakingly through the circuitry looking for bad connections.

It turns out that the 4 mini alligator clip test leads had bad connections under
the "boots" and they measured  from 4.5 to 54 ohms! 

That compounded with a subtle bad connection on the banana plug on
the digital multimeter adds up to construction of one helluva sand castle!

Thanks to the $10.00 analog  meter I was able to pin down this
travesty on good science. :-)

An order of Crow Please, and a slice of Humble Pie for Desert.  :-(

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 21:07:09 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:59:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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In a message dated 9/5/00 8:56:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> An order of Crow Please, and a slice of Humble Pie for Desert.  :-(
>  
>  Regards,     Frederick
>  
That's what science is all about. See something strange and try
like hell to prove yourself wrong asking for help along the way.


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 22:07:47 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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>In a message dated 9/5/00 8:56:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
>
>> An order of Crow Please, and a slice of Humble Pie for Desert.  :-(
>>  
>>  Regards,     Frederick
>>  
>That's what science is all about. See something strange and try
>like hell to prove yourself wrong asking for help along the way.

And it's FUN!

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  5 23:13:53 2000
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field

Yeah, and I lurned how to spell Dessert, too! :-)

Regards,     Frederick


> >In a message dated 9/5/00 8:56:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> >fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
> >
> >> An order of Crow Please, and a slice of Humble Pie for Desert.  :-(
> >>  
> >>  Regards,     Frederick
> >>  
> >That's what science is all about. See something strange and try
> >like hell to prove yourself wrong asking for help along the way.
> 
> And it's FUN!
> 
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 02:25:12 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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Kyle -

Congratulations on your experiment replication and positive result.

What's the best guess so far on a possible artifact or conventional 
explanation? My JLN group subscription is probably still in the mail. 
<g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

<snip>


>This is a very fascinating effect, but I do not know if there could be
>some form of artifact that has not been thought of yet. I would
>appreciate the opinions of all on this list who are interested.
>
>--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 05:34:01 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 9:45 PM 9/5/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>It turns out that the 4 mini alligator clip test leads had bad connections
>under
>the "boots" and they measured  from 4.5 to 54 ohms!
>
>That compounded with a subtle bad connection on the banana plug on
>the digital multimeter adds up to construction of one helluva sand castle!

OK, way to go, this is good science, and you should fel good aboiut it.
You have fixed some major problems, so that is good progress.   I would
look at it as a good beginning.   Hopefully, any effects you measure now
can be replicated.  In going through varous tests with wire loops I have
seeen various unexpected but not yet even characterized things that I think
are worth exploring.  I think if you can do fun science for under $20 that
is a great thing.  If you have a good oscilloscope handy, or can buld a
small FET amplifier and can download some oscilloscope software that uses
the sound input jack in your computer, you may get to see a lot of weird
stuff.  Also, there are some DVMs (e.g. radio shack) that have serial ports
so you can input the data to a compter, and also some A/D cards that are
within reach os some people's budgets.

There is some realy cool stuff available from the elfrad group for loookog
at signals in the ground, which might also be adapted to electrogravity
experiments or aurora or HAARP watching:

  <http://www.elfrad.com/sigcon.htm>

You can or soon will be able to buy this stuif ready made, but parts and
plans are also available now.  The most useful part of the circuitry may be
the ability to cleanly sort out the low frequancy signals characteristic of
"waiving around" a coil.

It's amazing that, when you start to turn over rocks and look under them,
that you tend to find interesting things. I think there may be intersting
things associted with signals on simple coils in motion, or the difference
between the signal in a stationary coil and a distant identical coil, be it
static, in motion, or acceleration, but the magnitude of the signals is
small.

Wish I had time for doing some more of this, but my house is in renovation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 06:03:54 2000
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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> What's the best guess so far on a possible artifact or conventional
> explanation? My JLN group subscription is probably still in the mail.
> <g>

Well, I don't really know what kind of artifact might cause this. That's
why I posted to vortex-L, hoping for some response and criticism as to
what might be causing this other than a truly anomalous effect. Myself,
I have only a couple of ideas:

1. The DC power feeding the device is interacting with the earth's
magnetic field. That's possible, but the fact that the wires are twisted
together makes that unlikely. I suppose some untwisted part might be
exposed, and thus causing the effect, but I don't know.

2. The AC component of the power feeding the antenna structure is
interacting with the earth's magnetic field. I doubt this is the cause,
but it must be considered.

To all on this list: is there any way that RF radiation can 'push' on
the ground below the device, thus resulting in a thrust? Any and all
ideas would be appreciated. Don't get me wrong, I hope this effect is
really an unconventional one. But my philosophy is to rule out all other
possibilities first.

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 06:10:12 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 11:15 AM 9/5/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Some pretty good ideas there.  One more might be that if the frequency is
>more broadband, then the RF equivilent of a prism would be useful. What I
>mean is a prism in reverse.  You input a broad spectrum of frequecies, and
>the output would refract and combine into one frequency. What would
>something like that be?

I don't know.  There are vaious multi-lobed broadband antenna designs that
could be used to tap power.  All that is needed then is rectification.



>A parabolic dish pointed at the ground could serve
>as a focusing waveguide for a reverse magnetron (one where the anode and
>cathode were reversed) that would be tuned to the collected frequency.  I
>think this might also serve as a good stepdown tranformer too, I don't know.
>The waveguide could be focused for an ideal depth.  Perhaps the reverse
>prism part of the antenna could be a flourescent light tube.


The main problem is that, if there were a large signal from the earth, it
would  likely have long ago been detected and tapped for power.  If the
available power is low, then it seems unlikely to account for gravity.
Further, the fact the 3.1 MHz or lower frequency signal should be easily
reflectable, and yet gravity "goes through" metal, is another indication
that maybe something is wrong with the theory, unless scalar or spin waves
are involved.   Still, the notion that quarks in the nulceus should be
radiating a detecatble signal seems to me to be valid, and opens up further
questions regarding what kind of nulcear structures account for the lack of
radiation, if there be no such radiation, and the source of the energy, if
there be such radiation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 07:34:07 2000
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Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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New Setup:

Two 1.028E7 ohm resistors in series with a 14 gauge solid copper wire Loop
~ 0.1 meters diameter, (12 inch leads, soldered) with ~ 3.0 volt battery voltage applied.

Again, when the Loop was set in motion (rapidly accelerated) a delta V of
~ 5.0 millivolts above or below the 1.023 volts measured across one of the resistors
depending on whether the loop was rotated clockwise or counterclockwise, was obtained.

This is still 333 times the voltage swing that one would expect from the Geomagnetic Field,
but an order of magnitude below the previous (questionable results).

OTOH, the ~ 1.5E-7 ampere current is about 6 orders of magnitude below the previous reading
of ~ 0.15 amperes.

I'll have to go to the store to stock up on resistors to see if I can plot a curve of
current vs delta V, with the accelerated Loop.

Regards,    Frederick


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
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At 8:27 AM 9/6/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>New Setup:
>
>Two 1.028E7 ohm resistors in series with a 14 gauge solid copper wire Loop
>~ 0.1 meters diameter, (12 inch leads, soldered) with ~ 3.0 volt battery
>voltage applied.
>
>Again, when the Loop was set in motion



Is that linear motion or angular motion?


>(rapidly accelerated) a delta V of
>~ 5.0 millivolts above or below the 1.023 volts measured across one of the
>resistors
>depending on whether the loop was rotated clockwise or counterclockwise,
>was obtained.
>
>This is still 333 times the voltage swing that one would expect from the
>Geomagnetic Field,
>but an order of magnitude below the previous (questionable results).



One would expect no potential to be generated from the geomagnetic field in
a loop that is in linear motion or linear acceleration.



>
>OTOH, the ~ 1.5E-7 ampere current is about 6 orders of magnitude below the
>previous reading
>of ~ 0.15 amperes.


It could be that you have created a strain guage accelerometer from the
resistors. It is important that the resistor not be unduly stressed by the
acceleration, thus they need to be well supported structurally.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:41:22 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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I should have said that an alternative test would be to replace the wire
lobes with an AXIALLY SYMMETRICAL closed metal case with the right
perimeter length to preserve the resonance.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 12:40:44 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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At 9:30 PM 9/5/0, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>
>This is a very fascinating effect, but I do not know if there could be
>some form of artifact that has not been thought of yet. I would
>appreciate the opinions of all on this list who are interested.

It is very easy to get artifacts when using pendulums.  The artifact could
in part be attraction of the antenna structure to electrostatic charges
induced by the antenna on the walls of the test chamber, for example.  This
would increase the duration of the pendulum swing.

There clearly, at a very minimum, should be shielding placed around the
pendulum.  Several layers of foil wrapped around a cardboard box should do.
If the effect is due to gravity modification, as suggested by the authors,
then an EM radiation shield should not reduce the effect any at all.

An alternative test would be to replace the wire lobes with a closed metal
case with the right perimeter length to preserve the resonance.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 16:06:39 2000
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From: TDSherbeck aol.com
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Please Unscubscribe me from the list.  It has been interesting reading, but I get too far behind.  Thanks.
from tdsherbeck aol.com

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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:46:00 -0500
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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> It is very easy to get artifacts when using pendulums.  The artifact could
> in part be attraction of the antenna structure to electrostatic charges
> induced by the antenna on the walls of the test chamber, for example.  This
> would increase the duration of the pendulum swing.

Oh? I didn't know this...if I do pendulum tests, I will keep this in
mind in the future though.

Tell me your opinion on this: I set the device on my scale, and it lost
5 grams of weight. Then, I took the pan off the scale, set it to zero,
and set it underneath the device, without the scale or device being in
contact. The reading went from zero to -5 grams. Then, I placed the
scale above the device, and it went from zero to -3.8 grams. Could the
RF from the antenna be interfering with the scale circuitry? I know the
power level (500mW) is not high, but is it possible?

Don't get me wrong...I want this to be real...but I have to be
absolutely convinced beyond all shadow of a doubt before I will say it
is or is not something. Opinions? Ideas? John Schnurer, you've worked
with this sort of thing before. Are there any artifacts I should look
out for?

Thanks to all,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 19:02:43 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:58:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Ni CF in Japan
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Jed mentioned that people in Japan were still using closed Ni/H2O systems.

Mills used open cells in his highly successful Ni/H2O/K2CO3 electrolytic 
cells.  The best cell was reported in detail in Mills & Good, "Fractional 
Quantum Energy Levels of Hydrogen," FUSION TECHNOLOGY 28 (November 1995), pp. 
1697-1719.  That cell produced excess heat far beyond recombination.

Mitchell Swartz showed that one could get excess heat from a closed 
Ni/H2O/??? cell, too (I don't think Mitchell ever told us what the 
electrolyte was), but closed is a hard way to go with the wet electrolytic 
cells.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 19:21:14 2000
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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:23:22 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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At 8:46 PM 9/6/0, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>> It is very easy to get artifacts when using pendulums.  The artifact could
>> in part be attraction of the antenna structure to electrostatic charges
>> induced by the antenna on the walls of the test chamber, for example.  This
>> would increase the duration of the pendulum swing.
>
>Oh? I didn't know this...if I do pendulum tests, I will keep this in
>mind in the future though.
>
>Tell me your opinion on this: I set the device on my scale, and it lost
>5 grams of weight. Then, I took the pan off the scale, set it to zero,
>and set it underneath the device, without the scale or device being in
>contact. The reading went from zero to -5 grams. Then, I placed the
>scale above the device, and it went from zero to -3.8 grams. Could the
>RF from the antenna be interfering with the scale circuitry? I know the
>power level (500mW) is not high, but is it possible?


I think it is more likely the RF is inducing currents in metal in or near
your scale and/or producing thermal drafts due to heating.  After many
hours of experimenting with these things in recent years I feel it is very
important in any such sensitive antigravity experiment the provide both RF
shielding and thermal shielding and also to not measure the effect so long
as to let the device warm up and produce thermals.  I have had some success
using styrofoam panel for thermal shileding.

If you have a device which supposedly can produce lateral electrogravitic
thrust (which I think the subject device is not)  it is much much better to
use a torsion pendulum which is capable of rotating full circle at least
several times.

Something else you can do to help a little is to use string or other
non-conductive line, or a plastic rod, to isolate the device from the
scale.   However, at least RF shielding in this kind of experiment I think
is mandatory, and if you do that then you provide thermal shielding to some
degree too.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 21:29:42 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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Kyle writes:
>Tell me your opinion on this: I set the device on my scale, and it lost
>5 grams of weight. Then, I took the pan off the scale, set it to zero,
>and set it underneath the device, without the scale or device being in
>contact. The reading went from zero to -5 grams. Then, I placed the
>scale above the device, and it went from zero to -3.8 grams. Could the
>RF from the antenna be interfering with the scale circuitry? I know the
>power level (500mW) is not high, but is it possible?

There is definitely something weird here if you are influencing a scale to
read something 5 whole grams off.  What is the rated accuracy of the scale,
anyway? Can you imagine what kind of disasterous errors this would cause if
one were relying on that kind of scale for pharmaceutical or other critical
work? This is a professionally built digital scale I am assuming, not
something you made, and it should be properly RF shielded to avoid that sort
of thing.  This is just a scale, too.  If the underlying physics are not
well understood, then virually all microelectronic applications would be
susceptable to something like this.  When I see Scott's relatively expensive
electrical meter go totally bonkers and things like this that involve
electrostatics, then we need to figure it out.

Horace's suggestion for thermals brings in another factor, but I don't see
how thermals could affect the circuitry enough to give a 5 gram false
reading.  If it does, there should be correction circuitry in the scale that
would track the circuitry temp, and correct to give the proper reading.
Aren't electronic scales strain gauge based?  Are the resistors used of an
inductor coil type (thin wire of a given length, wound into a coil around a
heat absorber)?  Is Fred usng the same type of resistor with his gizmo?

I know this sounds weird, but I know you're into weird Kyle, so I will go
ahead and suggest it anyway.  There is a company making pyramid cones that
go under stereos. They are claiming that the electronic signals stabilize,
and the sound gets a lot better.  They said that when they put them under
their desktop computers, that even Windows runs better.  I'm not joking, and
neither were they.  They were charging a bundle for these things.  Try
making a small (say 1' high), paper pyramid, and putting that under and over
your scale to see if it affects the reading.  It may throw it off, or it may
stabilize it.  Just remember, one side has to be facing North, and the
pointy end always goes up.

AARRGGG!!!

Knuke
                                                                    
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 21:33:10 2000
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Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:36:02 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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At 12:23 AM 9/7/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>
>Horace's suggestion for thermals brings in another factor, but I don't see
>how thermals could affect the circuitry enough to give a 5 gram false
>reading.  If it does, there should be correction circuitry in the scale that
>would track the circuitry temp, and correct to give the proper reading.
>Aren't electronic scales strain gauge based?


Thermal drafts affect the device, not the scale, except to lower the
apparent weight.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  6 23:23:56 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <44.6edb57d.26e88cb4 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:16:20 EDT
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 9/6/00 7:01:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
stk sunherald.infi.net writes:

> Tell me your opinion on this: I set the device on my scale, and it lost
>  5 grams of weight. Then, I took the pan off the scale, set it to zero,
>  and set it underneath the device, without the scale or device being in
>  contact. The reading went from zero to -5 grams. Then, I placed the
>  scale above the device, and it went from zero to -3.8 grams. Could the
>  RF from the antenna be interfering with the scale circuitry? I know the
>  power level (500mW) is not high, but is it possible?
>  

Kyle,

Nice experiment.  To eliminate possible RF interference with scale
electronics how about a balance beam suspension. Use wood and
string for construction. I would be interested to see if there was
weight reduction at different frequency's. Can the radiator be fed by
coax from a signal generator?

>  
>  Thanks to all,
>  Kyle R. Mcallister
>  


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 00:09:01 2000
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Subject: Thermal Imaging and Auras
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Gnorts,

Here is a good interview with Gary Settles, inventor of the new sniffer.

http://www.feedmag.com/re/re381_master.html

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 00:53:33 2000
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Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:46:30 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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This story reminds me of the Naper Saike Ring. I found a schematic 
for it. I went surplusing and found some noninductive wire wound 
resistors and some transistors. The finished circuit had the 
transistors and the inductors assembled in a sphere. When I energized 
it with a car battery the unit lost 2% of it's weight. This weight 
excluded the car battery which was too depleted to start the car 
after a few hours of operation. The circuit got too hot to touch. 
Otto Schmitt pronounced the results "significant" however which made 
all the effort worth while.

One of my fellow F E enthusiasts tested the circuit and discovered a 
magnetic halo 2" above it. According to Dr. Roger Hastings, this halo 
could account for the weight loss.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 00:57:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:55:35 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Misho Kaku's interview
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For those of you who haven't heard of Misho Kaku, he teaches physics 
at NYU. The good doctor was on Coast to Coast AM the other night. He 
was going on about how 90% of the matter in the universe is invisible 
and how is not regular matter. I'm mystified by how this could be 
possible.  It's not that we can't see it, that I understand. But if 
it's not conventional matter, then what is it?  He continued that if 
you can figure that one out you will win the Nobel prize. I suggested 
to Hal Puthoff that perhaps this "matter", which isn't conventional 
matter,  could account for the Zitterbewegung. Frank Meyer doesn't 
think that energy has mass however.

He later said that gravity pushes not attracts. This would seem to go 
along with what David Dennard has been saying. Having seen the 
attractive power of gravity demonstrated on a regular basis.  I find 
this even more mystifying than 90% of the matter, which isn't matter. 
I assume that David has included an explanation on this on his site 
which I'm planning on visiting one of these weeks.

The most interesting aspect of the interview was his remarks about 
hyperdimensionality. It seems that all electromagnetism can be 
accounted for by a simple equation in a five dimensional continuum. 
He talked about an eleven dimentional universe. However he also 
mentioned an Indian mathematician whose mathematics projected a 26 
dimensional universe.

Dr. Kaku's remarks can be heard in RealAudio, you can link to it from 
Coast to Coast AM's website.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 01:28:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:14:28 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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At 2:16 AM 9/7/0, VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>Nice experiment.  To eliminate possible RF interference with scale
>electronics how about a balance beam suspension. Use wood and
>string for construction. I would be interested to see if there was
>weight reduction at different frequency's. Can the radiator be fed by
>coax from a signal generator?


The radiator on the original Dimitriou device is fed by twisted pair DC,
which is probably fairly good, but coax would be better if it provided a
similar pendulum swing.  Far more important to put thermal and RF shielding
on the device itself, I think, which can be done with packing material and
aluinum foil at almost no cost.   I think it is unlikely the RF is
affecting the scale but, you never know.  I suggested RF shielding because
RF can produce forces against the walls of the chamber/test room, and
create heat and drafts from the antenna lobes and circuit board, both of
which make the device appear lighter.  These effects can only be cured with
shielding.  Wood is not a good material to use near RF sources if there is
any remaining water content in the wood.  Plastic is much better, but it
doesn't matter if the device is shielded.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reproduction of Stavros Dimitriou's effect
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At 2:46 AM 9/7/0, thomas malloy wrote:
>This story reminds me of the Naper Saike Ring. I found a schematic
>for it. I went surplusing and found some noninductive wire wound
>resistors and some transistors. The finished circuit had the
>transistors and the inductors assembled in a sphere. When I energized
>it with a car battery the unit lost 2% of it's weight. This weight
>excluded the car battery which was too depleted to start the car
>after a few hours of operation. The circuit got too hot to touch.
>Otto Schmitt pronounced the results "significant" however which made
>all the effort worth while.

You can probably obtain similar results using an ordinary low resistance
nichrome wire.  The heat makes the air nearby rise, making the device
appear lighter.  If you stick your device in a foam box with not much air
space and turn it on a brief time it will probably not get as light -
unless of course it catches fire.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 07:07:19 2000
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Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling
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All of the so-far futile attempts to couple to the KiloTesla Magnetogravity Field
with conventional Magnetic Current Loops is due to the inability to "synchronize"
with the Time-Dilation effects in the "Quarks"/String-Circles that make up the
atoms.

The Time-Dilation is due to a Gamma Factor brought about by the slowing of
the "clocks" of the "Quarks/String-Circles" because they are in an Accelerated
Reference Frame, (spin is a constant velocity effect, but the v^2/r acceleration is due
to a change in velocity direction) thus their current q/t is reduced by a factor of ~ 3.5E18.

IOW, I = q/t  (dilated average current) for a quark ~ = 4.8E-13 amperes which results in the
feeble gravitational force, which says that a one meter circumference current loop carrying one
ampere, at the
Earth's Surface is "bathed" in a Magnetogravity Field of ~ 4.7 KiloTesla and should
feel a force of ~ 379 newtons or ~ 85 pounds, or be "torqued" the same as a current
loop between the field magnets in a motor or generator.

Since the Nuclear Magneton,  q*h/2m  (Joule/Tesla) for any quark can be derived
from the Nuclear Magnetic Moment (~2.79 for the proton) it doesn't matter that
some of the quarks have a slightly different mass/energy since their MG Fields
add up the same as if it were current loops carrying different currents stacked side-by-side.

Obviously the Time-Dilated Quarks "Couple" to each other and ALWAYS ALIGN TO ATTRACT
because they are in the same accelerated reference frame.

Bottom Line: Can something be done with a Current Loop to Couple to  The Quarks?

This is the gist of the Pulsed Loop experiment that Vince and I are setting up.

Regards,     Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 08:59:49 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
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thomas malloy wrote:

>For those of you who haven't heard of Misho Kaku . . .

That's Michio Kaku.

- Jed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling
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At 8:02 AM 9/7/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>All of the so-far futile attempts to couple to the KiloTesla
>Magnetogravity Field
>with conventional Magnetic Current Loops is due to the inability to
>"synchronize"
>with the Time-Dilation effects in the "Quarks"/String-Circles that make up the
>atoms.


Perhaps the field does not exist.  Though there have been lots of formulas
presented, there is nothing so far in the way a meaningful description of
the visualization of the mechanism by which the suggested 3.1 MHz field is
created.


>
>The Time-Dilation is due to a Gamma Factor brought about by the slowing of
>the "clocks" of the "Quarks/String-Circles" because they are in an Accelerated
>Reference Frame, (spin is a constant velocity effect, but the v^2/r
>acceleration is due
>to a change in velocity direction) thus their current q/t is reduced by a
>factor of ~ 3.5E18.


Despite the relativistic time dilation, so far you are still talking about
a simple magnetic force.


>
>IOW, I = q/t  (dilated average current) for a quark ~ = 4.8E-13 amperes
>which results in the
>feeble gravitational force,


I don't see why such a force is not magnetic, i.e. why it does not preserve
its polarity and other magnetic field properties, like the imposition of
the Lorentz force on moving charges.



>which says that a one meter circumference current loop carrying one
>ampere, at the
>Earth's Surface is "bathed" in a Magnetogravity Field of ~ 4.7 KiloTesla
>and should
>feel a force of ~ 379 newtons or ~ 85 pounds, or be "torqued" the same as
>a current
>loop between the field magnets in a motor or generator.



The 1 m circumference current loop would not be torqued if its axis is
aligned with the field and its polarity.  If the field does nto
significantly diverge over the dimeter of the hoop, then there would be no
vertical force either, only torque.




>
>Since the Nuclear Magneton,  q*h/2m  (Joule/Tesla) for any quark can be derived
>from the Nuclear Magnetic Moment (~2.79 for the proton) it doesn't matter that
>some of the quarks have a slightly different mass/energy since their MG Fields
>add up the same as if it were current loops carrying different currents
>stacked side-by-side.

I personally feel this is not correct. The quarks are dipoles, yes, and
without some principle, like the Pauil exclusion principle, they should all
three superposition (or share common directions) and add magnetic moments
like you imply.  I think this does not happen.  Experimentally we know the
proton is granular.   I have shown that current loops produce a
relativistic 1/r^2 type change in the apparent charge that varies dependent
on angle of observation, and that this force always acts in a repelling
manner when poles are aligned.  I think such a relativistic force is
neither conservative  nor capable of allowing a stable superposition, and
further might provide energy to maintain radiation of the gravitational
field.  Such a force might be resposible for a kind of exclusion rule
working in the nucleus to create a dynamic nuclear structure.

If a group of magnetic dipoles have a force or dynamic that tends to keep
them separated then they will align into a N-S-N-S-N-S- circular chain,
similar to a toroidal field, leaving not much external field.


>
>Obviously the Time-Dilated Quarks "Couple" to each other and ALWAYS ALIGN
>TO ATTRACT
>because they are in the same accelerated reference frame.
>
>Bottom Line: Can something be done with a Current Loop to Couple to  The
>Quarks?
>
>This is the gist of the Pulsed Loop experiment that Vince and I are setting up.


Current loop forces are 1/r^3 forces.  I don't see how they equate to 1/r^2
gravitational type forces unless only radiation is involved in the proposed
electrogravitic field.  You hypothesized this radiation at about 3.1 MHz.

Let's review:


At 7:35 AM 8/1/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Summing it up:
>
>Fg =  kq^2/(gamma^2 * r^2)  =  G*m1*m2/r^2
>
>Where k = 1/4(pi)eo and q = 1.602E-19  Coulombs
>
>Since leptons or "quarks" have intrinsic rotation (or spin) they are
>in an Accelerated Reference Frame with acceleration v^2/r thus are
>"slowed" or time dilated,  T = To/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 where
>gamma = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2  and T = 1/Frequency.


At 2:44 AM 8/3/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>> How do you get r = 4.62E-18 meters for the quark?
>
>Simple too,   r = kq^2/Energy      Energy = Mp/3*c^2   = 1.66E-27/3 *c^2 ~
>= 5.0E-11 Joules


In the model presented, frequency is dependent on the mass of the
individual quarks.  This implies directly then that multiple frequencies
are involved.  Further, the 3 body dynamics of charged quark dipoles
interacting at relativistic speeds is likely to produce a complex spectrum.
That such dynamics must exist is evidenced by the graininess of the
proton.  Such unstable (1/r^2 + 1/r^2 force) dynamics within the confines
of the nucleus must produce acceleration and thus would be expected to
produce radiation, but not much in the way of consistent alignment.  Even
natural magnetism produces domains and field cancellation in magnetic
materials like iron.  It seems unlikely that extremely dynamic nucleii
carrying vast quatities of kinetic energy, and typically shielded by
electron clouds, are likely to collimate their radiation in any significant
way.

Despite all this negative thinking, I still have not directly answered your
question.  This is because I have done a good deal of thinking about this
issue in the past, as well as experimentation, and still have no certain
answer.  My feeling is the answer lies in the directionally dependent net
relativistic change in apparent charge for current loops, which I have
shown to exist in prior posts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling
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I wrote; "Such unstable (1/r^2 + 1/r^2 force) dynamics within the confines
of the nucleus must produce acceleration and thus would be expected to
produce radiation, but not much in the way of consistent alignment."   This
should have read:  "Such unstable (1/r^2 + 1/r^3 force) dynamics within the
confines of the nucleus must produce acceleration and thus would be
expected to produce radiation, but not much in the way of consistent
alignment."

There is also the highly exponential color force binding the quarks, which
doesn't help stability either, but which should not be involved in
providing  structure, i.e. avoiding collapse, since it is an attracting
force.  I think it is reasonable to think the nuclear structure results
from a repelling relativistic force along the lines I have suggested.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling


Heffner wrote:

Snip usual Heffner CRAP!

Go do your remodeling.

FJS

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 15:20:22 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling
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At 1:00 PM 9/7/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Antigravity & Magnetogravity Coupling
>
>
>Heffner wrote:
>
>Snip usual Heffner CRAP!
>
>Go do your remodeling.

Yes, I am way overdue to go do that.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 18:57:19 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Power Pyramids
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Gnorts,

Was doing some long overdue file maintenance and ran across the URL of the
company that was making the pyramids that they recommended for stereos.  I
got another report from someone saying that they work with microwaves, too.

http://www.vxm.com/dolo.popapuppy.html

Anyway, you can build them out of contruction paper, and they do work.  If
they don't work on your stereo, then you can always dehydrate food with
them.  This, I know works.  I made one almost 20 years ago, and put a banana
inside it for three months.  I would check it every so often, and all it did
was get smaller.  It go brown or moldy, and when I would lift the pyramid up
it would release a beautiful banana scent into the room.  It was not normal
behavior for a three month old banana.  Anyway, if you are messing about
with electrostatics or antigravity measurements, this would be one more
weird thing to try out just to see what the effect was on your measurements.
That should send the PhDs heading for the door.;)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 22:27:47 2000
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Knuke -

At 9:55 PM -0400 9/7/00, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>Gnorts,
>
>Was doing some long overdue file maintenance and ran across the URL of the
>company that was making the pyramids that they recommended for stereos.  I
>got another report from someone saying that they work with microwaves, too.
>
>http://www.vxm.com/dolo.popapuppy.html
>
>Anyway, you can build them out of contruction paper, and they do work.  If
>they don't work on your stereo,  <snip>

Sorry - with all due respect to the folks who have seen interesting 
things with their pyramid experiments, this sounds too mych like 
Bruce P.'s (I think it was his) magnetic CD enhancer. Like digital 
information is going to be enhanced somehow.

The other day an artist non-computer/non-science friend of mine with 
a web site I do maintenance on had a request for me. Seems that after 
a discussion with a mutual friend who was giving her leg a good push, 
she wanted me to re-upload all her art image jpegs because they had 
been up there a while, and after all the downloads they had endured, 
some of the pixels in the images were getting worn out and dropped, 
making the colors duller and the detail blurred. Sort of like my 
brain after exposure to the internet all these years - got me 
thinking that SMOT might work, didn't it?!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Now, that's what I call living dangerously.

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/09/07/lizard.smuggler.ap/index.html

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  7 23:28:24 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Rick writes:
 Sort of like my 
>brain after exposure to the internet all these years - got me 
>thinking that SMOT might work, didn't it?!
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

What!?!  You mean it doesn't work? ;)  Seriously, Stefan Hartmann posted the
other day that some physics prof in Germany got it to go around a loop 12
times.  If forget exactly what he said went wrong after that, but of course,
they were going to build another one and get back to him.  The banana thing
really did work though, and I was quite surprised.  I've never seen a banana
shrink from 8" to 4" in three months and not go brown.  This was in the
summer, too.  The point was that these are cheap to build, they're weird,
and fun.  And, if they do influence an experiment in a noticable way, then
someone from academia will have to explain how.  Ya never know!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 00:07:12 2000
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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:58:43 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>Gnorts,
>
>Was doing some long overdue file maintenance and ran across the URL of the
>company that was making the pyramids that they recommended for stereos.  I
>got another report from someone saying that they work with microwaves, too.
>
>http://www.vxm.com/dolo.popapuppy.html
>
>Anyway, you can build them out of contruction paper, and they do work.  If
>they don't work on your stereo, then you can always dehydrate food with
>them.  This, I know works.  I made one almost 20 years ago, and put a banana
>inside it for three months.  I would check it every so often, and all it did
>was get smaller.  It go brown or moldy, and when I would lift the pyramid up
>it would release a beautiful banana scent into the room.  It was not normal
>behavior for a three month old banana.

***{Did you lay a banana from the same bunch outside the pyramid, but under
some other type of protective cover, as a control? If not, I see no way you
could discount various mundane possibilities--e.g., that preservatives had
been used, either deliberately or inadvertently, or that bacteria from
house dust which settles on fruit speeds decay. --MJ}***

Anyway, if you are messing about
>with electrostatics or antigravity measurements, this would be one more
>weird thing to try out just to see what the effect was on your measurements.
>That should send the PhDs heading for the door.;)
>
>Knuke
>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 01:35:29 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Mitch writes:
>***{Did you lay a banana from the same bunch outside the pyramid, but under
>some other type of protective cover, as a control? If not, I see no way you
>could discount various mundane possibilities--e.g., that preservatives had
>been used, either deliberately or inadvertently, or that bacteria from
>house dust which settles on fruit speeds decay. --MJ}***

Well no, but I've never had a banana last more than a week under any
conditions in any kind of weather, let alone the summertime.  I've even
tried keeping them in the fridge.  Have you ever seen a banana shrink 4
inches, and still be perfectly yellow over a three month period?  Were not
talking Twinkies here, you know.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 01:40:39 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: On A Cheerier Note ;)
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Gnorts,

http://ens.lycos.com/ens/sep2000/2000L-09-07-06.html

I subscribed to the daily environmental newsletter from Lycos a long time
ago, and it has been driving me nuts ever since.  Don't sign up for it
unless you want to be really pissed off all day. :)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 09:36:04 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>Mitch writes:
>>***{Did you lay a banana from the same bunch outside the pyramid, but under
>>some other type of protective cover, as a control? If not, I see no way you
>>could discount various mundane possibilities--e.g., that preservatives had
>>been used, either deliberately or inadvertently, or that bacteria from
>>house dust which settles on fruit speeds decay. --MJ}***
>
>Well no, but I've never had a banana last more than a week under any
>conditions in any kind of weather, let alone the summertime.  I've even
>tried keeping them in the fridge.  Have you ever seen a banana shrink 4
>inches, and still be perfectly yellow over a three month period?  Were not
>talking Twinkies here, you know.

***{Knuke, I'm as open minded about this stuff as anybody, and I don't want
to be a wet blanket, but this pyramid stuff looks *really* iffy to me.
Suppose, for example, that the brown spots that normally appear on the
surface of a banana get started as a result of airborne dust particles
settling out on the banana. Maybe there are little critters analogous to
dust mites that ride in on such particles, gnaw away at the surface of the
banana, and start the decay process. Or maybe some proportion of imported
bananas are irradiated (it's been a legal method of food preservation in
many countries for decades, after all) and simply are resistant to decay.
Maybe the banana in your pyramid experiment just happened to be from such a
batch. How can you know, if your experiment didn't have a control? Do you,
for example, have some causal mechanism in mind by which, due to known
physics, pyramids ought to exhibit such properties? If so, please explain.
--MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>
>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 09:52:22 2000
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>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>he also
>mentioned an Indian mathematician whose mathematics projected a 26
>dimensional universe.
>
>


26 dimensions?!?!

warning cranial overload eminent...<boom>

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 10:18:51 2000
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I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates a 
magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 11:23:09 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
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At 12:17 PM 9/8/00 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
>I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates a 
>magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?

This is a subject of considerable interest.  For one thing, it is important 
to realize that magnetism is fundamentally a relativistic 
effect...apparently involving both Galilean relativity as well as Special 
Relativity.   For instance, consider a moving charge.  All you have to do 
to eliminate its magnetic field is to move YOURSELF along with the 
charge.  In other words, the charge's magnetic field depends upon what YOU 
are doing, not necessarily what the charge is doing.

Also ,it can be readily shown that the DC magnetic field caused by a 
current flowing in a wire can be explained by Special Relativistic 
contraction of the spacing between the moving charges that constitute the 
current in the wire (see "Electricity and Magnetism" by Purcell).   Purcell 
shows that, to a charge moving alongside such a wire, the wire looks 
electrostatically charged and the resulting electrostatic force is 
identical to the magnetic force we "see" from the lab frame.

It is therefore tempting to claim that what we call a "magnetic field" is 
nothing more that a modification of the electric field that occurs when 
charges move.  However, this wonderful concept seems to founder when you 
encounter EM radiation....i.e. photons.  Photons are funny things that are 
apparently composed of E and H fields inextricably tied together somehow.

Anybody happen to know what a photon really is?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
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I agree.  Adding multiple dimensions, or multiple universes as a way to fit 
the infinite data into the old curved void finite universe model is the 
wrong way to go.

The universe is infinite.  There is no proof or reason to think the universe 
is finite.  That defies common sense and mathmatics.

My theory sees gravity a pulling and pushing.  It pulls the more dense 
beneath the less dense, thus pushing the less dense away.  Gravity makes 
bubbles rise.  Gravity makes water vapor rise.  And in a flat fluid 
universe, gravity makes light itself rise.

Whirlpower Theory is of a gravity driven whirlpool universe.

David Dennard
The Cosmological Constant
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
>Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 11:46:23 CDT
>
>>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>>he also
>>mentioned an Indian mathematician whose mathematics projected a 26
>>dimensional universe.
>>
>>
>
>
>26 dimensions?!?!
>
>warning cranial overload eminent...<boom>
>
>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>

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Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
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Frame dragging is compared to magnetic fields.  As stated by Lens and 
Thirring, "like spinning a charge make a secondary magnetic force, spinning 
mass makes a secondary gravitational force".

Photons in Whirlpower Theory can be compared to water vapor.  They are 
excited electrons, in my opinion, or excited subatomic particles that make 
electrons.  When excited they vibrate.  This vibration makes the photon less 
dense.

Current is much like steam.

Lightspeed is much like evaporation.

Aquarius is the understanding of the fluid whirlpool nature of the universe, 
but since it is so SIMPLE it has, and the Bible teaches, will be ignored by 
those who pretend to know it all.  Lucifer wants to make Heaven on Earth, 
the Bible teaches, and play God, and know it all in a finite universe, I Am 
all there is, will be his motto.

Ha!

David






>From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
>Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:08:08 -0500
>
>At 12:17 PM 9/8/00 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
>>I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates a
>>magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?
>
>This is a subject of considerable interest.  For one thing, it is important
>to realize that magnetism is fundamentally a relativistic
>effect...apparently involving both Galilean relativity as well as Special
>Relativity.   For instance, consider a moving charge.  All you have to do
>to eliminate its magnetic field is to move YOURSELF along with the
>charge.  In other words, the charge's magnetic field depends upon what YOU
>are doing, not necessarily what the charge is doing.
>
>Also ,it can be readily shown that the DC magnetic field caused by a
>current flowing in a wire can be explained by Special Relativistic
>contraction of the spacing between the moving charges that constitute the
>current in the wire (see "Electricity and Magnetism" by Purcell).   Purcell
>shows that, to a charge moving alongside such a wire, the wire looks
>electrostatically charged and the resulting electrostatic force is
>identical to the magnetic force we "see" from the lab frame.
>
>It is therefore tempting to claim that what we call a "magnetic field" is
>nothing more that a modification of the electric field that occurs when
>charges move.  However, this wonderful concept seems to founder when you
>encounter EM radiation....i.e. photons.  Photons are funny things that are
>apparently composed of E and H fields inextricably tied together somehow.
>
>Anybody happen to know what a photon really is?
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One
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Hi Vo,

I started to write this as a comment to series of experiments of Frederick is currently doing, but it turns to be something different:)


Physical reality and the virtualization of reality

Sometimes mathematical virtulizations of a physical phenomenon is so successful to describe them universally, we tend to substitute these mathematical virtualizations for the reality. For example electrical magnitudes, current, electric and magnetic field
s are mathematical virtualizations of basic electrical phenomena. Current is a measure of displacement of charged particles not the displacement itself. When a battery discharge externally, we model electrical properties of the phenomenon as 'current' (an
d as other electrical magnitudes) In turn electric and magnetic fields are also measures, but measure of something we could not directly observe. So we often substitute these magnitudes for the real phenomena and we going to believe the magnitude which we
 use to measure and describe the phenomenon covers all aspect of the reality.
Worst occurs when the mathematical model or the concept appears to fit all related phenomena, allowing to us think that our concept is more fundamental than the phenomenon. Again basic electrical magnitudes fall in this category.

For example properties and existence of the phenomenon described as magnetic field are defined by laws. Things goes right when magnetic field is created by a 'current', but if there a phenomenon which produce something we measure like magnetic field which
 may not created by 'currents' and does not obey laws. We are in trouble.  

Essentially there is nothing wrong with our virtualizations and the laws, what wrong is our substitution of mathematical models for the reality. In this case it is simply proved that our virtualization does not cover all aspect of the phenomenon. It is ev
ident that the superconductivity phenomena does not fit our observation plane, we can not explain  why magnetic fields can not penetrate a superconducting material, making mu0=0 does not save us, and expose that we do really little about magnetism.

>From another perspective, we can describe our perception of the physical reality as a mapping or a cross-sectioning to a virtualization plane that our observation, and scientific knowledge lies to this plan. Our theoretical framework define this cross-se
ction and it extent by our technological capabilities. We observe the physical phenomena from this virtualization plane. 

Concepts that we create on this virtualization plane are images of physical reality, not the reality itself. Even what we observe from the physical reality is not a complete image but mapping, a cross-section. But, we fall in trouble when physical phenome
na is not directly observable with our senses (does not interact with our physical presence). This time we have no other reference than concepts and mathematical models in our virtualization plane to reality. In this case virtualization plane become indis
tictable from the reality. This cause overconfidence to our concepts, assuming that phenomenon is nothing more than we perceive and the mathematical model did build. This induce in our mind an exclusivity, we will never consider an alternative description
, never consider possible other aspects of the phenomenon.

Maybe for this reason we can not unify electromagnetism with gravitation, we can not see that our virtualization of these forces are incomplete. Maybe for this reason positive experiment results on gravity-electromagnetic interactions are rejected.

-- End Of Part One --

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Karma?

Terry

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-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
Find out Anything about Anyone! 
NET DETECTIVE 2000
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---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

Hi All - 

This isn't a joke.  A large tree fell on Dr. Park while he was jogging this 
week.  He suffered several breaks and some small head injuries.  He's 
currently in critical condition, battling infections.  If Dr. Park survives, 
as I expect he will, I'm sure he'll be the first to joke about the lesson in 
gravity learned.  But now isn't the time for it.    

The APS office tells me cards can be sent to the Washington office.  Physics 
arguments aside, I feel it's the decent thing to do.

The APS announcement follows:

What's New will not appear this week.  Bob Park has been hospitalized after 
suffering
serious injuries in a freak accident.  He has undergone extensive surgery and 
is now
battling infections.  No doubt he'll fight them with the same intensity he 
fights the
Philistines.


Warm Regards,

Erik



Hydrino Study Group (HSG):
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 13:24:52 2000
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Adam Cox wrote:
I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge
creates a magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?

Scott Little wrote:


 ... It is therefore tempting to claim that what we call a
"magnetic field" is nothing more that a modification of
the electric field that occurs when charges move.  However,
this wonderful concept seems to founder when you encounter
EM radiation....i.e. photons.  Photons are funny things
that are apparently composed of E and H fields inextricably
tied together somehow.

Anybody happen to know what a photon really is?

Hi Scott and Adam,

To say that there is a magnetic attraction or a magnetic
repulsion between two parallel wires in which electricity
is "flowing" is merely a choice of words.  It would be just
as easy to say that there is an attraction or repulsion 
between the two wires.

It's lots of fun to speculate about the nature of the
photon.  I like to think that that an infinite number of
photons can stand of the head of a pin provided that their
wave patterns do nor interfere; and I still like to think of the
photon as an atom, although MJ's theory that a photon is an
etheron with something added is very interesting.

Jack Smith



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 13:39:33 2000
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Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{Knuke, I'm as open minded about this stuff as anybody, and I don't want
> to be a wet blanket, but this pyramid stuff looks *really* iffy to me.

It's usual for anomalists to be comfortable with some new ideas while
instantly disbelieving others.  ZPE researchers can ridicule spoon-benders
and vice versa.  But why is pyramid power any less crazy than other topics
discussed here?  Wouldn't it be better to suppress the intolerance and
disbelief of anomalies in general?  Suppressing disbelief does NOT mean
accepting false ideas (see below.)


> Suppose, for example, that the brown spots that normally appear on the
> surface of a banana get started as a result of airborne dust particles
> settling out on the banana.

When the counter-explanation is nearly as amazing as the anomaly, be
careful that you're not "explaning away", as opposed to just explaning.
Putting bananas under a paper cover keeps them fresh for weeks?  That's an
anomaly worth investigating all by itself.  It violates common experience,
and also would be a very useful fact to kno,w if true.  It has
implications, and cannot be just a hastily-constructed weapon to use
to defeat pyramid power speculations.


> Or maybe some proportion of imported
> bananas are irradiated (it's been a legal method of food preservation in
> many countries for decades, after all) and simply are resistant to decay.

Another very interesting phenomenon if true.  In our collective experience
if bananas occasionally lasted for weeks without turning black, then
Knuke's anomaly wouldn't be so weird.  So, has anyone on vortex
accidentally encountered the non-rotting banana effect in the past?  I
certainly haven't.


> Do you,
> for example, have some causal mechanism in mind by which, due to known
> physics, pyramids ought to exhibit such properties? If so, please explain.

Huh?  If it's not covered by conventional physics theory, we should be
suspicious?  On the contrary, no theory is necessary, because if something
seems to be outside of normal physics, we should be CURIOUS rather than
DISBELIEVING.  Curiousity makes us attempt to get to the truth by further
experimentation.  Disbelief makes us hastily assemble dubious explanations
in order to preserve our worldview against threats.  When someone reports
an anomaly, which is the better response: "I gotta try this", or "here is
why we shouldn't be amazed and intrigued." 


If you're thinking "I won't believe Knuke until X and Y and Z,"  then
there's the problem: disbelief.  Disbelief protects us from accepting
wrong data as real, but it also blocks discovery of new things.  An
alternate policy of "provisional belief" is one solution to this problem. 
Don't instantly reject pyramid power in order to avoid accepting a false
belief.  Just put pyramid power anomalies in the "provisional belief"
pigeonhole.  That way they won't be crushed by disbelief, but also there
is little danger that we'd accept them as real. 


  "If we watch ourselves honestly we shall often find that we have begun
   to argue against a new idea even before it has been completely stated."
      - Wilfred Trotter


I've never tested Pyramid power myself.  I did hear an interesting story. 
Pyramids supposedly can only sharpen cheap, poorly-hardened razor blades
found in Russia.  When Americans attempted replication with harder steel,
the anomaly wasn't there, so pyramid power was rejected. The edge of soft
razor blades tends to be folded over during use, that's why "stropping"
with a leather belt acts to "sharpen" a straight razor. 

If pyramid power causes steel to relax so that the bent edge partially
rights itself, that would go far in explaining how a cardboard pyramid
could "sharpen" a razor.  It would also explain why no sharpening effect
was seen with the harder steel of american blades.  And it suggests an
experiment:  bend a steel wire, measure the angle, then put it under a
pyramid.  Graph any spontaneous unbending that occurs over time.  Compare
it to control wires kept in a similar environment but not under a pyramid. 
If this gives interesting results, then we have a way to crudely detect
and measure pyramid power.  Not that colorimetry of decomposing banana
skins couldn't also supply a "pyramid energy field" sensor!  :) 

If Knuke's bannana shrunk by 3" over a week, the length decreased at about
7500 nanometers per minute.  A laser interferometer could detect it in
real time.  Would the shrinkage velocity suddenly change if the pyramid
was rotated off true north alignment?  Or, put the banana-device in a box
within a larger pyramid, then after the shrinkage velocity was stable,
swap it with a non-pyramid shape, or change the angles of the pyramid, or
add metal foil to the sides, think evil thoughts at it, etc.  Pyramid
power or its lack would quickly show itself.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

> To say that there is a magnetic attraction or a magnetic
> repulsion between two parallel wires in which electricity
> is "flowing" is merely a choice of words.

I vaguely recall reading about experiments at the turn of the century
where moving charge was shown to cause magnetic fields.  A highly charged
spinning disk constitutes a circular current of a few microamperes.  If
electricity flows as surface charge on a moving object, or as combined
charge in a conductive object, both supposedly produce the same magnetic
field and attractive/repulsive force.  "Flowing electricity" therefore
wouldn't be just words, it would be a coherent description of the main
part of the phenomenon.  Whether there are improved, more general
descriptions is a separate issue.  

The idea of flowing charge illuminates the mystery.  Since all concepts
have limits, flowing charge might also divert our attention from
undiscovered aspects of EM.  For example, a current in an infinite wire
has no net acceleration of charge, while a current in a metal ring puts
charges in continuous acceleration.  SR doesn't cover the GR aspects.  Is
the force on a distant wire produced by a circular current really just the
sum of millions of tiny straight-line currents, or does the curvature of
the current path do anything interesting?  For really huge levels of
current, does a spinning ring of charge do anything that a straight line
flow of charge does not? 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 14:03:01 2000
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I went back over the numbers for the Magnetogravity Field and I still
come up with KiloTesla (1,530 to (pi)*1,530) Field strengths for it.

The generation of an EMF due to rotation of a current loop in the field
suggests that a lift force can be obtained by pulsing the current loop, or
commutating a group of current loops. Sort of a generator or motor, but
using the Magnetogravity Field as the B field.

Don't know enough about Phased Array technology to know if it
could be used for this.

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 14:21:40 2000
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hamdi ucar writes:

>Sometimes mathematical virtulizations of a physical phenomenon is so 
>successful to describe them universally, we tend to substitute these 
>mathematical virtualizations for the reality.

Theory heaped on theory, based on unproven Einstein Theory, numbers heaped 
on numbers, bunk heaped on bunk.

There are too many theories", states Dr. Hawking in Discover Magazine.  
"Cosmology is not science if it cannot predict the data", Stephen says.  And 
none of it has predicted the data as Dr. Rubin points out in the ABC NEWS 
Transcript posted at my website.  None of it is science.  Beyond the wildest 
dream of any scientist, not in any theory.  All ths stuff some of you guys 
say is real is science fiction.

>Maybe for this reason we can not unify electromagnetism with gravitation, 
>we can not see that our virtualization of these forces are incomplete. 
>Maybe for this reason positive experiment results on 
>gravity-electromagnetic interactions are rejected.

As long as "laws" of science are seen and used as real law and used to try 
and put down new ideas we will never evolve.  They are not laws, they are 
based on unproven theory, and dogmatized by the religion of science, big 
shot know it alls with books to sell.  Clout is not science.

David Dennard
The Mouse That Roared
"It's the fizz in the physics"
http://www.whirlpower.cc




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 14:36:20 2000
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Since no one on HSG appears to want to respond to this, I thought I would
also post here. Maybe I will get a response.


On Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:30:09 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
[snip]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>
>Hi,
>
>Dr. Mills recently reported using a voltage drop in gaseous cells to
>compensate for the energy mismatch between certain catalysts and hydrino
>energy hole values.
>Is it possible that the voltage drop across the electrical double layer at
>the cathode in electrolysis cells could perform the same function?
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>
>
>Hydrino Study Group (HSG): A serious look at the novel theory of Dr. Randell Mills.
>http://members.tripod.com/Hydrino/
> Post Message  hydrino eGroups.com
> Subscribe     hydrino-subscribe eGroups.com
> Unsubscribe   hydrino-unsubscribe eGroups.com
> List Owner    hydrino-owner eGroups.com

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 14:51:44 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lenz's Law & Rotating Current Loop in the Magnetogravity Field
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 15:49:34 -0700
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Perhaps Electronic Commutation of Current Loops would develop
an Antigrav Force? Hard to keep up with this stuff.  :-)

 http://water-cooler.com/WC/patentviewer/patent-4005347.html

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 15:30:51 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <r9qirskv1foe13vf9g78bs92k97ebpbte6 4ax.com>
Subject: Re: (fwd) HSG: Potentials
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:32:37 -0400
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Robin wrote:
> >
> >Dr. Mills recently reported using a voltage drop in gaseous cells to
> >compensate for the energy mismatch between certain catalysts and hydrino
> >energy hole values.
> >Is it possible that the voltage drop across the electrical at
> >the cathode in electrolysis cells could perform the same function?
> >
Hi Robin,
I've been away on vacation for 10 days and am just catching up with the
400 emails that accumulated. 
It seems as though the double layer field must have an effect -if- the reaction
takes place within it. Perhaps this could explain part of the pulse enhancement
effect. According to Mills, K matches the required energy levels very
closely. Perhaps the long pulse off times used allow reactions to take place
without fields causing a mismatch. Fields could be even more important
in the liquid case due to the lower temperature of the experiments.
Regards,
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:13:08 2000
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numbers don't necessarily express reality. They may express a PERCEPTION
of reality and be valid as such but miss the actual reality. For
example, you can do wonders with numbers that represent money, ask any
accountant.
MJ

David Dennard wrote:
> 
> I agree.  Adding multiple dimensions, or multiple universes as a way to fit
> the infinite data into the old curved void finite universe model is the
> wrong way to go.
> 
> The universe is infinite.  There is no proof or reason to think the universe
> is finite.  That defies common sense and mathmatics.
> 
> My theory sees gravity a pulling and pushing.  It pulls the more dense
> beneath the less dense, thus pushing the less dense away.  Gravity makes
> bubbles rise.  Gravity makes water vapor rise.  And in a flat fluid
> universe, gravity makes light itself rise.
> 
> Whirlpower Theory is of a gravity driven whirlpool universe.
> 
> David Dennard
> The Cosmological Constant
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
> 
> >From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
> >Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 11:46:23 CDT
> >
> >>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> >>he also
> >>mentioned an Indian mathematician whose mathematics projected a 26
> >>dimensional universe.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >26 dimensions?!?!
> >
> >warning cranial overload eminent...<boom>
> >
> >Merlyn
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> >http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:13:32 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Sep 08, 2000
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 15:43:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

Friday, 8 September 2000 

What's New will not appear this week.  Bob Park has been hospitalized
after 
suffering serious injuries in a freak accident.  He has undergone
extensive 
surgery and is now battling infections.  No doubt he'll fight them with 
the same intensity he fights the Philistines.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:16:52 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: The New Energy Report: AEI Bulletin #17, 9/8/00
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:13:14 -0800
From: editor altenergy.org
Reply-To: newsletter altenergy.org
To: newsletter altenergy.org (The New Energy Report Mailing List)

This free electronic bulletin is published by the Alternative Energy 
Institute, Inc., a non-profit educational organization. New Energy 
Reports and bulletins highlight the latest trends in the rapidly 
changing field of energy. Tell your friends to sign up now. 
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(   (   (  (  ( ( (((( AEI BULLETIN )))) ) )  )  )   )   )


ATTENTION ALL SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS AND INVENTORS:

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Dear Colleague, 
 
You are invited to participate in an international Web-based survey 
of scientists and engineers being conducted by the American 
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stage of your career, your participation will help COMEST and 
AAAS develop programs and activities that address these issues. 
 
The core of the survey consists of the following four questions: 
 
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do you believe will pose the greatest ethical challenges for 
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your discipline, which issues would it be essential to cover? 

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the ethics education and training of scientists and engineers? 
 
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Thank you in advance for participating. 
 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:18:33 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) HSG: Potentials
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:17:26 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <qs2jrs8he5epf34tfopi1fj7le4uftu07f 4ax.com>
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In reply to  George Holz's message of Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:32:37 -0400:
[snip]
>> >Is it possible that the voltage drop across the electrical double layer at
>> >the cathode in electrolysis cells could perform the same function?
>> >
>Hi Robin,
>I've been away on vacation for 10 days and am just catching up with the
>400 emails that accumulated. 
>It seems as though the double layer field must have an effect -if- the reaction
>takes place within it. Perhaps this could explain part of the pulse enhancement
>effect. According to Mills, K matches the required energy levels very
>closely. Perhaps the long pulse off times used allow reactions to take place
>without fields causing a mismatch. Fields could be even more important
>in the liquid case due to the lower temperature of the experiments.
[snip]
I talk glibly about "electrical double layers", but I don't really know much
about them. Could someone more knowledgeable please give an estimate of the
actual potentials levels involved, and whether or not these can be varied by
altering the potential applied to the cell?
As to the energy hole, I believe it is twice the ionisation energy of H, for
which the most precise figure I have is 13.5984 eV. I.e. the energy hole
should be 27.1968 eV. The figures I have for K are 31.625 eV and 4.3407 eV
-> a difference of 27.2843 eV. So there is a difference between K and the
energy hole of 27.2843 - 27.1968 = 0.0875 eV. 
It seems to me that if the voltage across the double layer were at least
equal to this, then something interesting may happen.
Note that according to E = 3/2*k*T, the difference of 0.0875 eV equates to a
temperature of 677 K. No wonder that these systems produce more energy as
they get hotter.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:31:16 2000
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X-Originating-IP: [168.150.192.24]
From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:29:34 PDT
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And no accountant would accept a %5 error bar and then based his bottom line 
on it, and make economic law on it, and try to use it like he "knows" the 
universe is finite.

That would be called Bull Hockey in economics, and no clout would be able to 
wash the stain away.

David




>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
>Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:18:46 -0400
>
>numbers don't necessarily express reality. They may express a PERCEPTION
>of reality and be valid as such but miss the actual reality. For
>example, you can do wonders with numbers that represent money, ask any
>accountant.
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > I agree.  Adding multiple dimensions, or multiple universes as a way to 
>fit
> > the infinite data into the old curved void finite universe model is the
> > wrong way to go.
> >
> > The universe is infinite.  There is no proof or reason to think the 
>universe
> > is finite.  That defies common sense and mathmatics.
> >
> > My theory sees gravity a pulling and pushing.  It pulls the more dense
> > beneath the less dense, thus pushing the less dense away.  Gravity makes
> > bubbles rise.  Gravity makes water vapor rise.  And in a flat fluid
> > universe, gravity makes light itself rise.
> >
> > Whirlpower Theory is of a gravity driven whirlpool universe.
> >
> > David Dennard
> > The Cosmological Constant
> > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> >
> > >From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Re: Misho Kaku's interview
> > >Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 11:46:23 CDT
> > >
> > >>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
> > >>he also
> > >>mentioned an Indian mathematician whose mathematics projected a 26
> > >>dimensional universe.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >26 dimensions?!?!
> > >
> > >warning cranial overload eminent...<boom>
> > >
> > >Merlyn
> > 
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > >http://profiles.msn.com.
> > >
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 17:39:25 2000
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Message-ID: <39B983DD.158F668E ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 12:27:09 +1200
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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Damn, that's one crazy idea... But what if your right?

William Beaty wrote:

> If Knuke's bannana shrunk by 3" over a week, the length decreased at about
> 7500 nanometers per minute.  A laser interferometer could detect it in
> real time.  Would the shrinkage velocity suddenly change if the pyramid
> was rotated off true north alignment?  Or, put the banana-device in a box
> within a larger pyramid, then after the shrinkage velocity was stable,
> swap it with a non-pyramid shape, or change the angles of the pyramid, or
> add metal foil to the sides, think evil thoughts at it, etc.  Pyramid
> power or its lack would quickly show itself.
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  8 18:30:14 2000
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http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTIndex.html

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http://www.sci.kcn.ru/kib/biocatalit.htm

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To: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>
Subject: HYDROGEN PRODUCTION BASED UPON REFORMING HYDROCARBONS USING A  
 NON-EQUILIBRIUM
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HYDROGEN PRODUCTION BASED UPON REFORMING HYDROCARBONS USING A 
NON-EQUILIBRIUM
                                     PLASMA AS A CATALYST
         Ozlem Mutaf-Yardimci, Alexei V. Saveliev, Mario Sobacchi,
Alexander A. Fridman* and Lawrence A. Kennedy*
                         Sponsors: National Science Foundation, Texaco, 
Dupont, Kodak

     The production of hydrogen is identified as one of the areas of
major interest to many industries including: petroleum
     refining, gas industry, energy systems, combustion systems,
metallurgy, and chemical industries.. Steam-methane reforming,
     autothermal reforming and thermal partial oxidation are some of the
competing technologies used to produce H2 . The
     current normal process is based on surface catalytic reaction and
carried out in large  gas reformers utilizing packed bed
     reactors. There are some major drawbacks of the reformers used in
these processes which are associated with the chemical
     catalysts. Some of these drawbacks are: environmental  pollution
associated with the processes of their production, recovery
     and especially disposal of used catalyst; low utilization of
available catalyst surface, large size and  high capital cost, short
     service life, high and non-uniform wall temperatures, soot
formation (in thermal partial oxidation reforming), etc. These
     drawbacks are inherent in the existing technologies which are based
on packed bed catalytic reactors. In an approach to
     reduce the environmental  costs, low utilization of available
catalyst surface, large size and  high capital cost, short service
     life, etc,  we are proposing a novel reformer concept which will
use no conventional catalyst but rather,  will utilize the
     catalytic properties of non-equilibrium plasma  for the reforming
process. 
From:http://www.me.uic.edu/research/labs/kennedy/research_projs.htm
MJ

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:47:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> ***{Knuke, I'm as open minded about this stuff as anybody, and I don't want
>> to be a wet blanket, but this pyramid stuff looks *really* iffy to me.
>
>It's usual for anomalists to be comfortable with some new ideas while
>instantly disbelieving others.

***{Of course. Since the evidence is more supportive of some new ideas than
of others, that state of affairs is to be expected. As for why people often
disagree about which ideas are plausible and which are not, the answer is
that everyone does not come to the table with the same understanding of the
principles of science. Result: protracted debates are frequently necessary
to achieve common understanding, before concensus can become possible.
--MJ}***

ZPE researchers can ridicule spoon-benders
>and vice versa.  But why is pyramid power any less crazy than other topics
>discussed here?

***{You mean "more crazy," I think. If so, the answer is that I didn't say
it was crazy. My intent was to explore Knuke's position in order to see if
he, or someone else, could defend it. If you want to extract more than that
from what I said, you should get yourself a crystal ball. :-) --MJ}***

Wouldn't it be better to suppress the intolerance and
>disbelief of anomalies in general?

***{Having an open mind means having a willingness to listen to a new idea
and apply reason to it, nothing more. Reason, in turn, is a simple process:

(1) You state, as clearly as you can, the question to be answered.

(2) You state, as clearly as you can, the various possible answers to that
question.

(3) You systematically search for information contradicting *all* of those
answers.

(4) So long as more than one answer remains uncontradicted, each such
answer must be treated as possible.

(5) If a stage is reached where only one answer remains, you must accept
that answer as the truth--which means: when the subject comes up, that is
the answer you should state as your opinion.

(6) Finally, you should recognize that reason is an ongoing process--which
means: you continue the search for other possible answers, even after the
list has been whittled down to one, and even after you have adopted that
answer as your opinion. That means if a new answer emerges, the process
reverts to stage (3), above, and your belief, however much you may have
come to cherish it, must be called into question all over again.

Nothing in such a procedure requires that a person dump the pre-existing
contents of his mind down the toilet before he can evaluate a new idea.
Quite the contrary: the structure of your pre-existing knowledge provides
the framework within which you work. Each contradiction that you find will
require that you either discard the new answer, or one (or more) of the old
ones, and it is by means of such decisions that you learn and grow.

--Mitchell Jones}***

 Suppressing disbelief does NOT mean
>accepting false ideas (see below.)

***{Nor does failure to suppress disbelief lead to that outcome. What
counts is not your belief or disbelief in a proposition, but rather your
willingness, in the privacy of your mind, to systematically attack *all* of
the possible answers, regardless of whether you believe them or not. Reason
is survival of the fittest in the mind. To practice it, you must have the
strength to attack *all* answers to all questions within the privacy of
your own thoughts, including the answers that you believe. In your
interactions with others, by contrast, you must have the strength to openly
state your belief in conclusions that, at the given moment, are the
survivors of your internal reasoning process, despite your awareness that,
at a future time, some of them might also fall down.

Bottom line: the proper approach is to attack everything, including your
own beliefs, in the privacy of your mind, while attacking only that which
you disbelieve and defending only that which you believe, in your
interactions with others.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>> Suppose, for example, that the brown spots that normally appear on the
>> surface of a banana get started as a result of airborne dust particles
>> settling out on the banana.
>
>When the counter-explanation is nearly as amazing as the anomaly, be
>careful that you're not "explaning away", as opposed to just explaning.

***{What's amazing about it? The brown spots that appear on a banana do not
appear everywhere at once. They start at specific locations, and spread
from there. If mere contact with airborne bacteria were sufficient to cause
such discoloration, it would appear everywhere at once. Hence we can
conclude that something else is required--something which opens a focal
point for invasion at a small number of specific points, rather than
everywhere at once. Thus the thought occured to me that perhaps dust mites
are an essential ingredient in the process, at least where bananas are
concerned, and that placing a cover over a banana that would shield it from
most household dust might slow the process of surface decay. Perhaps you
are satisfied to discount such a hypothesis with a wave of the hand, but I
am not. I need more information--which means: I will have to see the
results of more experiments, or a very cogent explanation, before I am
willing to conclude that the pyramidal shape is an essential ingredient in
the process. --MJ}***

>Putting bananas under a paper cover keeps them fresh for weeks?  That's an
>anomaly worth investigating all by itself.

***{That's not what he said. He merely claimed that the exterior did not
turn brown in the normal way. He did not claim to have eaten the thing
after it has been in his pyramid for several months, or that it would have
been reasonable to do so. --MJ}***

It violates common experience,
>and also would be a very useful fact to know, if true.  It has
>implications, and cannot be just a hastily-constructed weapon to use
>to defeat pyramid power speculations.

***{Nor was it so intended. To repeat: it was merely an alternative
hypothesis, intended to raise the possibility that the claimed result was
due to the fact that the banana was covered up, and not to the shape of the
cover that was used. --MJ}***

>
>
>> Or maybe some proportion of imported
>> bananas are irradiated (it's been a legal method of food preservation in
>> many countries for decades, after all) and simply are resistant to decay.
>
>Another very interesting phenomenon if true.  In our collective experience
>if bananas occasionally lasted for weeks without turning black, then
>Knuke's anomaly wouldn't be so weird.  So, has anyone on vortex
>accidentally encountered the non-rotting banana effect in the past?  I
>certainly haven't.

***{Bill, I stated flatly that irradiation has been a legal method of food
preservation in many countries for decades. That is simply a fact. (Do a
web search on "food irradiation," if you doubt this.) You can do high
intensity irradiation of a banana, for example, and it will not decay *for
months*. Even low-intensity irradiation, in fact, might be sufficient to
account for Knuke's experience. Since this method of food preservation has
been in use outside the U.S. for decades, and since most bananas are
imported, it isn't much of a stretch to suppose that some batches of
irradiated bananas were making their way into the U.S. even back when Knuke
did his experiment, even though such imports were illegal then. (They are
legal now, by the way.) If so, then his result is explained straightaway.
--MJ}***

>
>
>> Do you,
>> for example, have some causal mechanism in mind by which, due to known
>> physics, pyramids ought to exhibit such properties? If so, please explain.
>
>Huh?  If it's not covered by conventional physics theory, we should be
>suspicious?

***{You are engaging in mind reading again. I merely asked Knuke if he had
a theory. I made no claim such as the one enunciated by you, above.

Since you bring the matter up, however, I will comment on it. In my view,
if a claim contradicts a person's understanding of the way the physical
world works, he should be suspicious. Otherwise, there would be no point in
studying physics.

At this point, however, nothing about the facts that Knuke reported
contradicts my understanding of physics. His notion that the shape of the
cover was important is not a fact. It is merely his unsupported opinion.

--Mitchell Jones}***

On the contrary, no theory is necessary

***{I never claimed that a theory was necessary, and I don't believe one
is. Facts are facts, after all, whether we can explain them or not. --MJ}***

, because if something
>seems to be outside of normal physics, we should be CURIOUS rather than
>DISBELIEVING.

***{That's merely your philosophical worldview coming through. In fact,
belief will not prevent the falsification of an opinion, and disbelief will
not prevent its verificfation, if a person has trained himself to attack
all potential answers to a question, regardless of whether he believes them
or not. --MJ}***

Curiousity makes us attempt to get to the truth by further
>experimentation.

***{Curiosity doesn't make us do anything. A person who habitually avoids
lines of thought that undercut what he wants to believe is approaching the
world with blinders on, regardless of whether he is curious or not. It is
the relentless search for contradictions, not "curiosity," that is the key
to finding the truth. --MJ}***

Disbelief makes us hastily assemble dubious explanations
>in order to preserve our worldview against threats.

***{Same answer: disbelief doesn't make us do anything. It is possible for
a person to train himself to attack all potential answers to the question
he is investigating, including the answers that he believes; and if he does
that, he will make rapid progress toward the truth, in spite of what you
say. --MJ}***

When someone reports
>an anomaly, which is the better response: "I gotta try this", or "here is
>why we shouldn't be amazed and intrigued."

***{We can't try everything, Bill, because time and money are limited
resources. Thus the best response is to first discuss the claim, as we am
doing, in order to determine whether there is enough to it to justify doing
an experiment. --MJ}***

>
>
>If you're thinking "I won't believe Knuke until X and Y and Z,"  then
>there's the problem: disbelief.

***{I repeat: disbelief, per se, is not a problem. It is only *irrational*
disbelief--disbelief that arises due to a refusal to question one's
premises--which prevents us from progressing toward the truth. --MJ}***

Disbelief protects us from accepting
>wrong data as real, but it also blocks discovery of new things.

***{We all have beliefs and disbeliefs, and if that were to necessarily
block our paths to the truth, then knowledge would be impossible.
Fortunately, it doesn't, because a person who recognizes the necessity to
criticize *all* answers to a question, rather than just the answers he
disbelieves, can train himself to do just that. Result: for him, the path
to the discovery of new things is *not* blocked. --MJ}***

An
>alternate policy of "provisional belief" is one solution to this problem.
>Don't instantly reject pyramid power in order to avoid accepting a false
>belief.  Just put pyramid power anomalies in the "provisional belief"
>pigeonhole.  That way they won't be crushed by disbelief, but also there
>is little danger that we'd accept them as real.

***{If you are in the mental habit of criticizing all beliefs, including
the beliefs you hold, you will quickly discover that the confidence you
have in your opinions varies from belief to belief, and from day to day in
some cases. Thus, in such cases, you will find a term such as "provisional
belief" to be useful.

Unfortunately, people who are in the mental habit of avoiding criticism of
beliefs that they want to hold will *also* find the concept of "provisional
belief" to be useful. The reason: where beliefs that have no social
implications are concerned, such people discover that the confidence they
have in those beliefs varies from belief to belief, and from day to day in
some cases. Thus, to them, some such beliefs are "provisional," and some
are not.

Bottom line: adopting a term such as "provisional belief" does nothing to
innoculate a person against bias. There is only one way to do that: you
must train your thought process to criticize *all* answers to any question
you are trying to answer, rather than merely the answers you want to
believe. Like it or not, nothing else will do, because, at root, reason is
survival of the fittest in the mind. You have to cull out the weak ideas,
in order for the strong to survive.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>  "If we watch ourselves honestly we shall often find that we have begun
>   to argue against a new idea even before it has been completely stated."
>      - Wilfred Trotter

***{True enough, but it's not a problem for a person who, in the privacy of
his mind, gives no more quarter to his own beliefs than he gives to the
beliefs of others. --MJ}***

>
>
>I've never tested Pyramid power myself.  I did hear an interesting story.
>Pyramids supposedly can only sharpen cheap, poorly-hardened razor blades
>found in Russia.  When Americans attempted replication with harder steel,
>the anomaly wasn't there, so pyramid power was rejected. The edge of soft
>razor blades tends to be folded over during use, that's why "stropping"
>with a leather belt acts to "sharpen" a straight razor.

***{Any person who has sharpened a cheap pocket knife with a hand-held
whetstone has noticed that the outer edge of the steel can sometimes become
so thin as to be very fragile, and that a blade with such an edge doesn't
cut well because the edge folds over like a piece of foil. Leave such a
blade in a humid environment for awhile, however, and rust will remove that
overly thin margin, leaving a blade that is as sharp as a straight razor.
Thus, once again, we see that a "pyramid" experiment is useless without a
control. For all we know, if two identical blades had been placed on the
same table, one under a pyramid, and one under a rectangular cover of the
same volume, rust would have sharpened both of them equally. --MJ}***

>
>If pyramid power causes steel to relax so that the bent edge partially
>rights itself, that would go far in explaining how a cardboard pyramid
>could "sharpen" a razor.

***{A foil-thin edge will not cut well regardless of whether it is folded
over before cutting begins, because if it isn't, it soon will be. However,
if you saw such a blade back and forth a few times while attempting a
perpendicular cut on a piece of wood, the foil-thin edge will come off,
leaving an edge that would turn Rambo green with envy. :-) --MJ}***

It would also explain why no sharpening effect
>was seen with the harder steel of american blades.

***{Knife quality steel is hard enough, hence brittle enough, that
foil-thin edges break off during sharpening.  That's all you need to know
to explain this discrepancy. --MJ}***

 And it suggests an
>experiment:  bend a steel wire, measure the angle, then put it under a
>pyramid.  Graph any spontaneous unbending that occurs over time.  Compare
>it to control wires kept in a similar environment but not under a pyramid.
>If this gives interesting results, then we have a way to crudely detect
>and measure pyramid power.  Not that colorimetry of decomposing banana
>skins couldn't also supply a "pyramid energy field" sensor!  :)

***{I see nothing surprising, hence nothing anomalous, in the blade
sharpening results that you described. Thus I would not waste my time
trying to investigate them. Knuke's banana claim, however, is intriguing,
and the possibilities that I raised are still just that: possibilities.
Hence it may be worth a look. --MJ}***

>
>If Knuke's bannana shrunk by 3" over a week, the length decreased at about
>7500 nanometers per minute.  A laser interferometer could detect it in
>real time.  Would the shrinkage velocity suddenly change if the pyramid
>was rotated off true north alignment?  Or, put the banana-device in a box
>within a larger pyramid, then after the shrinkage velocity was stable,
>swap it with a non-pyramid shape, or change the angles of the pyramid, or
>add metal foil to the sides, think evil thoughts at it, etc.  Pyramid
>power or its lack would quickly show itself.

***{There is nothing anomalous about the shrinkage: as the water which the
banana originally containd evaporated, it shrank. That's simple, obvious,
and not worth investigating. The fact that the skin of the banana remained
free from discoloration, however, is quite another matter. *That*, I think,
is worth looking into. --MJ}***

>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 00:26:22 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Ahoy!

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things about the pyramid experiment.
First, for those that want to construct one, I said that you could use
construction paper, and I actually used something else.  I didn't pull this
idea out of the vacuum either, I had picked up a dog-eared copy of paperback
on pyramids in a second hand bookstore some years earlier, and the
dehydration experiment, along with the razorblade experiment that Bill
mentioned, was just one of the many things that they said would work.

I was in Bavaria at the time, really bored one day, and I had just moved
into a new place that was furnished, but needed a little personalizing.
Backpackers always carry postcards and photos to tape up on walls, but I
wanted something more.  I was looking at my new room, and I thought I'd make
a small pyramid, and set it in the center of a heavy round table that came
with the room.  I looked at the construction paper that they had available,
and it was a bit flimsy, so I kept shopping around until I found something a
bit stiffer.  I found a really cheap photo album that had thick pages,
somewhere between the thickness of construction paper and the thickness of
the cardboard you find in shoeboxes.  I used a razor knife on that to make
the four sides of my pyramid.  For some reason, the correct angle for the
base given in the book that I read years earlier stuck in my mind, so it was
of the mini-Cheops variety.  I carried a protractor, small ruler and compass
around with me too, which are things that I still carry on trips, as I have
always found them to be useful at the weirdest times, so I was able to do a
fairly decent job of it.  I just used cello tape on the inside of the
pyramid to hold the four sides together, and it looked great sitting there.
The banana idea came later as an afterthought.  I had one, and just stuck it
in there to see what would happen.  So much for construction details.

The second thing that I wanted to clarify was that I don't mind Mitch's
skepticisms at all.  Mitch's arguments have been pretty good in the past on
many occasions, and I always read them.  In fact, I never thought about the
banana being irradiated, which may have been the entire reason for it not
going bad.  Some of his arguments have been totally bogus too, but at least
he is thinking, and I appreciate that.  Even when he is rude or sarcastic, I
don't mind too much because he is good at it, and it is funny in a
schoolboyish sort of way.  Back then, I didn't really think in terms of
doing controlled experiments, and now, I do a bit more.

I have told other people about the pyramid experiment, and a few of them
have tried it with the exact same result, so that is why I am still pretty
sure it works.  I am pretty sure that at least one of them had controls, as
he has studied them in a scientific manner for quite some time.   At the
time of my experiment, I had to move on after three months, and so I
abandoned it.  I did peel the banana before I threw it out, and I cut the
edible part open to have a look at it, and it was in perfect shape
throughout.  I decided not to eat it because it was three months old, and
even if it looked and smelled OK, I couldn't risk getting sick at the time.
If I do it again, there will be a control banana inside of a box of another
shape, and a banana out in the open, and a banana on the floor, and a banana
in the fridge, etc. etc..

There will be many banana variations, all monitored closely by expensive
instruments along with as many other variable conditions as I can think of,
such as temperature, humidity, lumens, cosmic ray emissions and so forth.
All of the data will be logged at the highest frequency acquisition rates
possible.  A numerical  analysis will be done comparing the resulting data
to everything including the stock market trends of the last century, and a
scholarly paper will be forthcoming.   Even this will no doubt be ridiculed
severely by many in the academic community, and I still won't mind, and I
will tell you why.

When I was 12 years old or so, my Physical Education instructor decided that
the boys in my class needed to learn to do some tumbling exercises in
addition to the usual sit-ups and push-ups, etc..  It was a new idea for him
that he had heard about at his last conference, I am guessing, that was
supposed to increase your timing and coordination, so he gathered us
together to show us how to do one of them.  He picked me and another guy,
Ed, out of the class, explaining that this was a two-person stunt, and that
it was important that everyone should find a partner that was similar in
height and weight.  He also explained that he picked me and Ed because we
were both fairly agile, had both played football, and were already trained
in the proper way of falling down, the last of which made me a bit uneasy.
He had Ed lie down on his back, and told him to bring his legs up 90 degrees
and spread them just to about the width of my shoulders, and he had me stand
with one foot on either side of Ed's head facing Ed' feet.

He then instructed me to grab the soles of Ed's shoes as tightly as I could,
and not let go.  He said that the idea of the stunt was for me to pitch
myself forward and down between Ed's legs, tuck my head, and do a forward
roll without letting go of Ed's feet.  Ed was then supposed to keep his legs
stiffly in a 90 degree position, and as soon as my feet left the ground, he
was supposed to grab the soles of my shoes.  The weight of me going forward
and down into the roll was supposed to bring Ed up into the top position
where he would lurch forward between my legs and roll.  We were to form a
human, rolling doughnut, as it were.

I thought about this for a second, got a good picture in my mind of how this
was supposed to work.  As soon as I did, I looked down at Ed, he nodded, and
I launched off.  The launch went perfect, too. Ed grabbed my feet, and we
were rolling down the mat picking up speed pretty quickly.  The walls, floor
and ceiling were whizzing by, and I was grinning ear-to-ear like a fool
thinking, "Wow! This is great!  We're a two-person, human, rolling doughnut!
What a blast!", and similar idiotic thoughts.  The mat we were on covered
almost the entire length of the gymnasium, and we were really going pretty
fast by the time we hit the halfway point.

I heard Ed start laughing earlier, and I just figured that he was enjoying
himself as much as I was because he just kept going faster and faster.  His
laugh started to get a bit maniacal though, and I could see that at some
point that we were going to run right off the mat.  We were headed straight
for the main doors, and even with the mat, the speed was making it a bit
uncomfortable on my spine.  I reckoned that if we rolled off the mat and hit
the doors, we would be rolling on concrete down the main hallway of the
school, which would actually be quite painful.

I looked down at Ed to yell at him to slow down, but he was totally
oblivious.   He was laughing so hard his whole head was purple, tears were
running down his face, and he was shaking his head from side to side.  He
always was a bit of a speed freak, and I thought that he had finally lost
it.  I was really wishing that the instructor had told us how we were
supposed to stop this crazy stunt.  It was about this time that I noticed
that the entire class was laughing too, and I figured that they were
thinking the exact same thing.  We were going to crash right through the
doors, and roll down the main hall of the school.

Just as I thought that, both the main doors swung open wide, and there stood
the entire administrative faculty, as well as a bunch of other well dressed
people wearing name tags on their lapels.  They immediately burst out
laughing, too. A couple of the women in the crowd screamed, turned and
started pushing their way back into the crowd behind them.  I couldn't
figure out why they were laughing.  It was fairly obvious that me and Ed
were going to hit them like a big bowling ball in a second if they didn't
get the heck out of the way, but they all just stood there doubled over and
roared.  When Ed saw them, his eyes bugged out like he was really scared.
He let go of my feet, rolled sideways and bolted in the direction of the
rest of the class in what looked like one single move.  This left me sort of
in mid air flying, and I was deposited in a lump at the feet of this
distinguished group of elders, whom I later found out were a bunch of state
school board representatives, and some state politicos.

I was picking myself up, and noticed that these folks were really in
stitches.  Some of them were crying.  I couldn't figure it out.  Ed and I
were doing the stunt perfectly, and all we did wrong really was fall over.
The finish was a bit clumsy, that's all.  What was the big deal?  What the
heck was making these people double over so badly?  The laughter was quite
loud and echoing off the walls in a surreal way that mixed somehow with the
blur of the giant mercury lamps.  Some of these geezers were laughing so
hard that I thought they were going to have heart attacks.  I was starting
to get a bit annoyed and redfaced about the whole thing.  It crossed my mind
that I should just tell them all to go stuff it.

Well, I was really disoriented and sweaty from all the exertion, and it was
then that I felt the welcome draft of cool air from the open doorway.  Being
the sensitive guy that I am, I also noticed a very distinct coolness on an
area of my body that I vaguely knew should not have felt nearly so cool.  I
reached around behind me to find that the back of my gym trunks had blown
completely wide open, probably as soon as I launched into the stunt, and I
knew exactly why everyone was laughing.  I was wearing an athletic supporter
under my trunks, but so what?  That was even worse.

I was entirely and thoroughly mortified to the bone at first, of course.
The very thought that in about 20 minutes, the entire school was going to
hear about this, made me just want to disappear.  Half of the state was
going to hear about it by dinnertime with that crowd.  I don't think that it
would have been possible for me to be any more embarrassed.  Then a really
great image popped into my mind of what it must have looked like from their
perspective, and I almost doubled over laughing myself.  It really was one
of the funniest things that you could possibly imagine happening.  The image
itself was so funny that I didn't really mind being the butt of the joke, as
it were.  It made everyone's day, that much was for sure.  Anyway, from that
moment on, there was no way anyone could embarass me after that.  I'm immune.

I think we should all get used to the fact that doing Science in a public
forum like this is probably going to be something similar, if not so bad.
Even the most intelligent among us are all going offer up some suggestions
in all seriousness that will be shot down and ridiculed at times by
something obvious that we overlooked. While there are many situations where
life and death or a lot of money are at stake, and we should not suggest
crazy stuff during those times, but for a simple experiment like this, the
pyramid suggestion is quite appropriate.  In fact, the very fact that the
pyramids are still a mystery after all these years is a bit odd to me.  I
don't think that the Egyptian sense of the aesthetic was so narrow as to
consider these giant monstrosities merely as ornamental structures.

I think that they are much more than that, and that the links between
anti-gravity research, extended EM theory and ZPE research will show that
they were functional in some way.  They don't cost anything to build, and
every scientist should have one in their lab, just to see if they affect
experiments or instruments.  If they do, then they could perhaps give us
some more clues so that we could get a bit closer to the ultimate truth
about Nature and life.  In the meantime, we all have to admit that by not
having a very good and fully comprehensive explanation for reality, we are
all walking around with our backsides showing.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 04:04:00 2000
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David Dennard wrote:


Whirlpower Theory is of a gravity driven whirlpool universe.


"There are too many theories", states Dr. Hawking in Discover Magazine.


---
:-)

John Fields

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Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.

And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer will 
be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his informtion 
freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of 
years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.

The too many theories have come from heaping numbers on top of numbers, all 
based on the wrong foundation, by "real" scientists.  Top PhDs have now 
stated, the flat space teams have concurred, the cosmological constant is 
back.  All the rest is just a dog chasing its tail.

There are more PhDs on my list now that ever, and they ain't just whistling 
Dixie.  :)

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part 
>One
>Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 05:59:33 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
>
>Whirlpower Theory is of a gravity driven whirlpool universe.
>
>
>"There are too many theories", states Dr. Hawking in Discover Magazine.
>
>
>---
>:-)
>
>John Fields
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 12:41:48 2000
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At 8:34 AM 9/9/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>Dr. Mills recently reported using a voltage drop in gaseous cells to
>>compensate for the energy mismatch between certain catalysts and hydrino
>>energy hole values.
>>Is it possible that the voltage drop across the electrical double layer at
>>the cathode in electrolysis cells could perform the same function?


As with all else I comment on here, and even more so in this case, I am far
from an expert, but that won't stop my comment or speculation!  So, the
following is  provided as some fodder for thought.

I think there is theoretical evidence that the answer to the above should
be  YES, provided hydrinos exist at all, but experimentally it would seem
the answer is mostly NO, with some possible experimental MAYBEs.  Further,
if the hydrino state exists at all, then it would appear that no catalyst
is required at all, that the hydrino state could be made at the interface
(or perhaps across an interface plus dielectric layer)  provided the now
accepted (quantum tunneling) model of charge transfer at interfaces due to
Gurney (1932) and Gerischer (1960's) is valid. [See *Modern
Electrochemistry*, Bockris and Reddy, Plenum, 1977 ed., ISBN 0-306-25002-0,
p. 942 ff.]

Talking about the region of the interface Bockris states: "In a stable
hydrated proton the levels into which a tunneling electron would like to be
received are all occupied. Tunneling becomes possible, therefore, only if
the proton-water bond stretches until the electron can be welcomed into a
vacant electronic state. Thus charge transfer depends on the cooperative
movement of both the proton and electron with the metal and the water
molecule influencing the energetics of these electron and protron motions."
[ibid., p. 974]

Later [ibid., p. 977], he emphasizes more generally that: "The ion
stretching is very important, but this is so only because of the need for
the tunneling electrons to find a state in the acceptor particle equal in
energy to the one (in the metal) from which they came, the condition for
radiationless tunneling."

This bond stretching, or more generally the displacement of a proton within
its electron environment, so as to achieve a receptor state, is caused by
the field gradient at the interface, which can be very large.  I would
further suggest  [speculation warning] that the precise conditions for
hydrino formation might be more readily achieved at or beyond an interface
near the tip of a dendrite, due to the divergence of the field there, and
thus the increased likelyhood that the precise gradient required will be
experienced within the nearby electrolyte.  However, it seems reasonable
the interface would not be stable there at a dendrite tip at the  potential
(plus electrode work function potential) required for hydrino formation.
Further, it seems logical in view of the electronation process described
for the interface, that Hydrinos could be formed on a plain metal electrode
in a pure gaseous hydrogen environment, provided the charge on the metal
created a sufficient gradient to distort the hydrogen atom such that the
proton would be receptive to tunneling in of a metal electron to one of the
sub-ground hydrino states, thus freeing a previously bound electron. Again,
it seems reasonable that dendrites might aid such formation, but would also
likely be destoyed by small currents in a hydrogen gas environment, while
they might actually be rejuvenated, as well as cooled, in a water
environment.  It should be further mentioned that the electronation
gradient need only be maintained at approximately the required potential,
because the difference is made up in the diversity of kinetic energies of
the molecules and protons in the electrode vicinity, and the distribution
of electron energies in the metal.  If needed or useful, a further
variation in potential can be imposed by adding an AC component to the
electrolysis potential, thus eliminating any requirement for dendites,
provided only a specific field gradient (thus potential across the
interface) and no field divergence is required.

Achieving hydrino electronation in a gaseous environment or in a chemical
environment might be enhanced by depositing a (or utilizing a naturally
present) thin electron barrier on the electrode surface, in order to
maximize the time the stretched bond is exposed to tunneling.  The
tunneling half-life to a prospective proton is determined by the
probability amplitude (phi) of the electron at the electrode surface being
located the required distance from the electrode surface.  The simultaneous
reqirements for long exposure time and bond streching are mutually opposed,
especially in the gaseous enviorment, where the bond streching time is
limited due to inertial effects.   Imposing a barrier, like the
electrochemical interface, or say, an oxidation layer on a metal electrode,
or a deposited dielectric layer, e.g. diamond, increases the bond
stretching time for any prospective proton stably adhered to the layer, or
just slowed by the lawyer, and thus increases the probability of
electronation to the desired state.

It seems to me that the electrolyte environment is far superior to the
gaseous enviroment for acieving (stanard tunneling) electronation into the
desired hydrino state.  This is because the barrier (that guarantees long
time stretching of the bond to the proton to be electronated) is not
perfect, and would be expected to be often destroyed in the process.  A
chemical environment provides the capability for the barrier, including the
interface itself, to reform.  Further, the electronation potential for the
odd proton in an H3O+ ion is far less than 27 eV, thus requiring less
exotic conditions for hydrino formation (within an ordinary QM framework,
which is not fully consistent with Mills' view anyway.)

The above assertions, if correct, indicate that hydrinos likely do not
exist.  Hydrinos have a lower energy state than ground state.  Therefore,
shifting the equlibrium of an electrochemical reaction towards creation of
hydrinos would merely entail dropping the potential below that required for
ground state hydrogen formation.  That, of course, is a theoretical view.
Since, experimentally, there is an abrupt drop in conduction below that
potential, it is reasonable that the sub-ground states either do not exist,
or somehow magically resist radiationless tunneling into them.  This
implies that electrons have to take on new and special characteristics to
support the existence of hydrinos.  It seems to that hydrino existence says
more about reality than just the existence of stable sub-ground states,
because the existence of a hydrino state implies special prevously unknown
restraints on particle tunneling characteristics.  Further conditions, in
addition to the Pauli principle and energy requirements, must exist for
tunneling if the hydrino exists.

However, none of the above really addresses your question. In more direct
response, I think that it is self-evident that if hydrino catalysis can be
achieved in gas phase then the high voltage electrolysis experiments
discussed so often here, being gas phase at the cathode, should clearly be
capable to some extent of achieving the same thing.  As for ordinary low
voltage electrolysis experiments, which can involve millions of volts per
meter gradients at the interface, I can only say that some of the old CF
results, especially the K salt plain water results, look very suspiciously
affirmative in that they have the charcteristic that their "ou nature" is
primarily manifest when the cells operate down near the critical voltage,
and also have greatest COP when there is an AC component applied on top of
an appx. 0.5 V DC baseline. There are other CF type experiments which
probably have nothing to do with hydrinos, however, like the Arata-Zhang
cell, so that is not to discount ordinary CF reactions.  Because current
drops off so rapidly near the critical voltage for H2 formation, it would
appear at minimum that hydrino formation at a cathode is at best far less
likely than hydrogen formation, possibly indicating a very small candidate
volume for electronation tunneling, plus an unlikely pairing of atoms or
molecules of the right energy for the ordinary Mills catalysis. It seems
logical that if hydrinos are formed more by one electrolyte than by
another, that more of a tailoff on current vs voltage would be seen as
voltage is dropped past the critical point, with the excess current in the
tail being attributed to hydrino formation.

Enough fodder?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Sorry guys, if you have something to say about my 'thoughts' state here (on this subject), otherwise dont be lazy and put subjects not related to "Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One" under their own identificating subject line
s. (Whirlpool things is a major subject and deserve be discussed under its own thread, IMO.)

Regards, hamdi


David Dennard wrote:
> 
> Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> 
> And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer will
> be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his informtion
> freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.
[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 14:31:36 2000
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IMO, what you said made sense, I agreed with reference to actual work on 
this list.  John Fields always tries to throw things off with his usual put 
downs, against list rules.

If you wish to shut me up show me some data where a whirlpool has been built 
and tested in a scientific manner.  My challenge has been and will continue 
be, there is no data.  Backed up independently now at;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

Now THAT'S an "anomolous phenonomena" if I ever saw one.

We have seen "great" interest in work by others on the vortex on this list.  
I am interested in finding out more on whirlpools.  A whirlpool is not the 
same thing as a tornado type vortex.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part 
>One
>Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:11:23 +0300
>
>
>Sorry guys, if you have something to say about my 'thoughts' state here (on 
>this subject), otherwise dont be lazy and put subjects not related to "Some 
>thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One" under their own 
>identificating subject lines. (Whirlpool things is a major subject and 
>deserve be discussed under its own thread, IMO.)
>
>Regards, hamdi
>
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> >
> > And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer 
>will
> > be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his 
>informtion
> > freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> > years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.
>[snip]
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 16:04:24 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> 
> And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer will
> be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his informtion
> freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.


---

That's foolish, David.  The reason no one has built a whirlpool is
because no one cares to.  Certainly you can't mean that you're
surrounded by ignorant fools who fail to see your light.  I mean, for
heaven's sake, take a look at the contributions made by 'most everyone
on this list and you should come to the conclusion that it's _you_ 
who's ignorant.  And, I stress the _rant_ part of ignorant.

---

John Fields

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Some very good info just in from mj, but this is vortex stuff, still nothing 
on whirlpools.  A whirlpool is not a tornado type, Chaos Theory, vortex.

Best in these links is the primasound link where what I am saying is pointed 
to and questions asked, that actually relate to the wobble, although not 
exactly expressed or recognized.

And this relates to ripples, mj, which you never commented on in my reply 
reated to drip and viscosity feedback.  Now, that would be a real good test.

But the best test anyone can do is to build a whirlpool, never done in all 
recoreded history according to my research, a known event in nature, 
unknown, unrecognized by science, truely the most anomolous phenomemon there 
is.

Thanks for the info, Michael, one of the truely rare events on this list.

David


>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>To: daviddennard hotmail.com
>Subject: whirlpool links for david
>Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:15:49 -0400
>
>http://www.qualitymarketinggroup.com/vortex.htm
>http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch14.html
>http://ascension2000.com/research2.htm
>mj

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 16:43:59 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:42:04 PDT
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History shows the most intelligent are often the most ignorant, not to be 
confused with stupid.  They ignore what they are not specialized in or have 
no knowledge of.

When "great interest" has been shown by many "real" scientists, time and 
time again, throughout the century, even back to Egypt and the Pharoahs, in 
trying to tap a tornado type vortex; but there is no recognition, no 
science, no data of any work on whirlpools, then that is ignorance, 
ignorance of a known event in nature.  Now not just my words anymore but 
backed up independently at;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

When a "real" scientist with clout eventually "sees the light" and stands up 
for real scientific method testing then great interest will be shown, mark 
my words.  It is only because I am not important, that I am not a "real" 
scientist, that what I say has no meaning for many, and this pattern is also 
seen throughout history.  But some on this list have recognized this and 
more have the longer I keep at it, thus, I will continue.  Since it has been 
posted and apparent by comments that some are ignoring my posts, and have 
for years, then ignorance on this list is already self admitted.  "Head in 
the sand" as Steven Florek stated.

History catches up eventually.

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part 
>One
>Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:57:10 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> >
> > And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer 
>will
> > be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his 
>informtion
> > freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> > years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.
>
>
>---
>
>That's foolish, David.  The reason no one has built a whirlpool is
>because no one cares to.  Certainly you can't mean that you're
>surrounded by ignorant fools who fail to see your light.  I mean, for
>heaven's sake, take a look at the contributions made by 'most everyone
>on this list and you should come to the conclusion that it's _you_
>who's ignorant.  And, I stress the _rant_ part of ignorant.
>
>---
>
>John Fields
>

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One

Hi David,

Would you please take your oversized Cream Separator  idea to Vortex B.

FJS


> History shows the most intelligent are often the most ignorant, not to be 
> confused with stupid.  They ignore what they are not specialized in or have 
> no knowledge of.
> 
> When "great interest" has been shown by many "real" scientists, time and 
> time again, throughout the century, even back to Egypt and the Pharoahs, in 
> trying to tap a tornado type vortex; but there is no recognition, no 
> science, no data of any work on whirlpools, then that is ignorance, 
> ignorance of a known event in nature.  Now not just my words anymore but 
> backed up independently at;
> 
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
> 
> When a "real" scientist with clout eventually "sees the light" and stands up 
> for real scientific method testing then great interest will be shown, mark 
> my words.  It is only because I am not important, that I am not a "real" 
> scientist, that what I say has no meaning for many, and this pattern is also 
> seen throughout history.  But some on this list have recognized this and 
> more have the longer I keep at it, thus, I will continue.  Since it has been 
> posted and apparent by comments that some are ignoring my posts, and have 
> for years, then ignorance on this list is already self admitted.  "Head in 
> the sand" as Steven Florek stated.
> 
> History catches up eventually.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> >From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part 
> >One
> >Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:57:10 -0500
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> > >
> > > And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer 
> >will
> > > be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his 
> >informtion
> > > freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> > > years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.
> >
> >
> >---
> >
> >That's foolish, David.  The reason no one has built a whirlpool is
> >because no one cares to.  Certainly you can't mean that you're
> >surrounded by ignorant fools who fail to see your light.  I mean, for
> >heaven's sake, take a look at the contributions made by 'most everyone
> >on this list and you should come to the conclusion that it's _you_
> >who's ignorant.  And, I stress the _rant_ part of ignorant.
> >
> >---
> >
> >John Fields
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 18:27:01 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hand-Operated  Whirlpool Maker and Cream Separator
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:25:15 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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 http://www.coburnco.com/milkyprods.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 19:18:01 2000
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"Frederick Sparber"

thinks this is something like Whirlpower?

http://www.coburnco.com/milkyprods.html

HA!!

That does not make a whirlpool.

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

That's a whirlpool, unknown to science, unrecognized, ignored, no tests, no 
data, years of research independent of mine.  If you can't recognize the 
difference, you just don't want to.

But the diffference is clear.  I didn't put three years of work and hundreds 
of pages on this list to take it to another list.  This is the list.

David


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 19:21:35 2000
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HI All,
   I am only asking this because I know nothing about it. Has anyone
ever done any research on the effects of radioactive materials on water?
What about water with an electrolyte? I mean, uranium for example, is
constantly putting out charged particles and if it was in water then
these particles might transfer enough energy to the water molecules to
separate them into H2 and O2. Maybe the ionizing effects of an
electrolyte would enable this. Is that why they have to use the more
stable Deuterium version of water when making nukes? I may be way off
base with this idea, I honestly don't know but if anyone has any info I
would be interested.
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 20:34:34 2000
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 06:30:57 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Vo,

I know that my 'thoughts' are little floating, but they can still be helpful to overcame some hesitations while challenging established ideas. I mean better cooperation between our hearts and brains. :)

A correction:
4'th paragraph ends with

    "and expose that we do really little about magnetism."

I should be read as

   "and expose that we do know really little about magnetism."

    
hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi Vo,
> 
> I started to write this as a comment to series of experiments of Frederick is currently doing, but it turns to be something different:)
> 
> Physical reality and the virtualization of reality
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 21:04:46 2000
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Subject: suppression of F E technology?
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I found Randall Mills email address and sent him a message.

I inquired as to when he would have energy machines for sale.

I also mentioned that I had heard about BLP's problems with the PTO. 
I mentioned that politics is a blood sport. You can either hide or 
hog the spotlight.

I have a friend ( Phil ) who is running for the Minnesota legislature 
on the Independence Party ticket. We met as a result of our interest 
in F E machines. He has told me in the past that he would like to 
make a political issue out of the suppression or F E technology. I've 
told him that he can do that just as soon as I find a F E technology 
that is either for sale or reproducible. Since I have been unable to 
do that, his plans are on hold.

If the invisible government gets tired of hearing people talk about 
their conspiring to suppress F E technology, they should stop making 
it look like they are suppressing F E inventors. I'm sure that Joseph 
Newman would be in agreement with that, eh Evan?

Randall Mills sent me an email thanking me for my email.

And the band played on.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 21:11:23 2000
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http://www.solarhydrogen.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 21:49:49 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:39:33 PDT
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hamdi,

Again I agree.  We "know" very little about anything.  Sure, lots of 
theories based on unproven theory.  Dr. Vera Rubin did not come on national 
television and say, "scientists are going to have to give up their most 
precious beliefs", for nothing.  She was not just flapping her jaws.  This 
is serious.  Science as we know it is bogus, plain and simple.


>From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part 
>One
>Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 06:30:57 +0300
>
>Hi Vo,
>
>I know that my 'thoughts' are little floating, but they can still be 
>helpful to overcame some hesitations while challenging established ideas. I 
>mean better cooperation between our hearts and brains. :)
>
>A correction:
>4'th paragraph ends with
>
>     "and expose that we do really little about magnetism."
>
>I should be read as
>
>    "and expose that we do know really little about magnetism."
>
>
>hamdi ucar wrote:
> >
> > Hi Vo,
> >
> > I started to write this as a comment to series of experiments of 
>Frederick is currently doing, but it turns to be something different:)
> >
> > Physical reality and the virtualization of reality
> >
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 21:57:47 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: suppression of F E technology?
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:46:12 PDT
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And watch out for more attempts at Whirlpower suppression.  It has been 
suppressed lots of times when folks are unable to meet my challange and the 
issue is pressed.  That's why the BBC is featuring my work in the upcoming 
series "The Passions of Science".  It has always been the passions of 
amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great 
discoveries, not the know it all big shots spouting false scientific dogma.  
We all know the story.

Suppression is the pointer to the real thing.

David


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: suppression of F E technology?
>Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:59:57 +0100
>
>I found Randall Mills email address and sent him a message.
>
>I inquired as to when he would have energy machines for sale.
>
>I also mentioned that I had heard about BLP's problems with the PTO.
>I mentioned that politics is a blood sport. You can either hide or
>hog the spotlight.
>
>I have a friend ( Phil ) who is running for the Minnesota legislature
>on the Independence Party ticket. We met as a result of our interest
>in F E machines. He has told me in the past that he would like to
>make a political issue out of the suppression or F E technology. I've
>told him that he can do that just as soon as I find a F E technology
>that is either for sale or reproducible. Since I have been unable to
>do that, his plans are on hold.
>
>If the invisible government gets tired of hearing people talk about
>their conspiring to suppress F E technology, they should stop making
>it look like they are suppressing F E inventors. I'm sure that Joseph
>Newman would be in agreement with that, eh Evan?
>
>Randall Mills sent me an email thanking me for my email.
>
>And the band played on.
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep  9 23:23:28 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One

Hamdi wrote:


> Hi Vo,
>
> I know that my 'thoughts' are little floating, but they can still be helpful to overcame some
hesitations while challenging established ideas. I mean better cooperation between our hearts
and brains. :)

Intelligent challenging  of "Established Ideas" is necessary to advance our knowledge of
Nature's Secrets.
>
> A correction:
> 4'th paragraph ends with
>
>     "and expose that we do really little about magnetism."

The less you do the better?    :-)
>
> I should be read as
>
>    "and expose that we do know really little about magnetism."

I'll buy that.  There seems to be different types of magnetism, that is to say that if
you run a current through a pair of wires you get one type, but if you do the Wallace
experiments you get a diffeent type, and if you treat the Magnetogravity Field as a form
of magnetism you get a third type, and so on, yet all fit the basic physical rules of magnetism.
>
>
> hamdi ucar wrote:
> >
> > Hi Vo,
> >
> > I started to write this as a comment to series of experiments of Frederick is currently
doing, but it turns to be something different:)
> >
> > Physical reality and the virtualization of reality
> >
When you invoke Special Relativity as well as portions of General Relativity, some of
the mysteries of magnetism are explained. But it ain't simple. :-)

Regards,   Frederick


> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>

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 http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 01:12:31 2000
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Hi Knuke, Mitch, Bill & all

> How can you know, if you didn't have a control ?

My two cents, for what it's worth. When I did the same kind of experiment
on pyramids (that was about 30 years ago), I used a rudimentary control. I
had bought a Cheops-style pyramid made of transparent PVC, so I cut a PVC
mineral water bottle, about the same height and volume as my pyramid, and I
placed two pieces of the same beefsteak, one under the pyramid, the other
under the cut bottle, on the same location in my appartment. Days after,
the piece of steak under the bottle was green, soft and smelly, the one
under the pyramid was brown, reduced and dessicated.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 01:19:21 2000
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http://members.nbci.com/enki_12.1/epbimages/simpledevice.htm

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Ie., GR treatment  (Magnetogravity Fields) vs SR treatment (Ordinary Magnetism)of 
EM effects.

What's the difference of one wrt the other, Hamdi?   :-)

Regards, Frederick


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The Centimeter Wavelength Microwave/Infrared Radiation from molecular radiation at
~ 300 K should be concentrated by the Pyramid configuration.

Thus absorption of these by a "hydrated" substrate should result in 
dehydration/desiccation wrt a non-concentrating "control"?

Dern, shouldn't drink regular coffee when you're used to decaff.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick



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Try a few packets of Silica Gel or Activated Alumina in a jar vs
a Pyramid Scheme, Knuke. 

This should shrink a banana from 8 inches to 4 inches a lot faster.

BTW, if the Egyptians had used silica gel , they might not have had to 
go to all that effort of building Pyramids.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


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Lots of good people around here, work at this plant.

They bring in the Montmorillonite clay by the carload and process/package it here.
It's shipped all over the world.

 http://www.uniteddesiccants.com/

FJS

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This is the catalyst company where Les Case got his Pd on Activated Carbon.

 http://www.uniteddesiccants.com/about/namechange.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 10:40:50 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramid vs Silica gel
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>Try a few packets of Silica Gel or Activated Alumina in a jar vs
>a Pyramid Scheme, Knuke. 
>
>This should shrink a banana from 8 inches to 4 inches a lot faster.
>
>BTW, if the Egyptians had used silica gel , they might not have had to 
>go to all that effort of building Pyramids.  :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Actually, there was a report done by a couple of Aussie PhD's not tooo long
ago, where they got some samples of the gigantic blocks at Cheops, and
analysed them.  They reported that they were made of what they termed a
"geopolymer" material consisting of both organic and inorganic material,
indicating that the blocks may have been poured in place like concrete,
instead of quarried and rodeoed up into place. Alumina was one of the
substances found in the samples.  Who knows?  It is weird though that it
dehydrates stuff when it is made out of any material, and even just paper,
as some have reported.  I've thought about them from a number of different
perspectives or approaches, and decided that pyramids are just weird, and
the more I think about them the less I know.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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 <200009080832.EAA04697 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:17:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>Hi Knuke, Mitch, Bill & all
>
>> How can you know, if you didn't have a control ?
>
>My two cents, for what it's worth. When I did the same kind of experiment
>on pyramids (that was about 30 years ago), I used a rudimentary control. I
>had bought a Cheops-style pyramid made of transparent PVC, so I cut a PVC
>mineral water bottle, about the same height and volume as my pyramid, and I
>placed two pieces of the same beefsteak, one under the pyramid, the other
>under the cut bottle, on the same location in my appartment. Days after,
>the piece of steak under the bottle was green, soft and smelly, the one
>under the pyramid was brown, reduced and dessicated.

***{Now we are getting somewhere. This is the kind of information a person
needs, in order to justify investing time and effort investigating what, on
the surface, seems to be a rather silly claim. Since you likened it to the
Great Pyramid, I assume that your pyramid model consisted of four
equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form a half-octagon,
but I need a bit more detail. What was the approximate length of one of the
edges? What kind of surface was it resting on during the experiment--e.g.,
formica, wood, glass, etc? Were the conditions in the room humid or dry?
Was there a source of heat nearby? (E.g., was it near a window where it
could be exposed to direct sunlight?) --MJ}***

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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Ie., GR treatment  (Magnetogravity Fields) vs SR treatment (Ordinary Magnetism)of
> EM effects.
> 
> What's the difference of one wrt the other, Hamdi?   :-)
> 
> Regards, Frederick

Uh, may magneto-gravitational (MG) phenomena can not be understand in the scope of GR, although I think the ordinary gravity is a noise of subatomic particles produce incoherently(*). This noise may be formed by forces produced by a MG process. I figure o
ut these like forces between molecules inside a gas or liquid. They are instantaneous having random directions. cumulative effect appears static and omnidirectional, like a pressure.

It appears the MG phenomena differs, look like a coherent process and exhibit directional characteristics. I had not studied GR, but it is possible that GR provide mathematical tools to formulate the gravitation produced by MG. GR deals with spacetime cur
vatures, and MG appears as a coherent process at atomic level, the common point is the nuclear density is very larger than the ordinary matter density, and the gravitational interactions inside the nuclei. So curvature the nuclei scale may play role on MG
. Interestingly, magnetic fields in nuclei are also very strong. Isn't it? So the conditions are favorable to look MG as a general relativistic effect. But this is not enough to unify ordinary gravity and the MG under GR. I think MG is the cause of the or
dinary gravity in stochastic, macroscopic form, and I dont know how this be resolved in GR. 

'SR treatment' have a different context than 'GR treatment' that I wrote above. As SR does embed gravitation, may provide better methods unify magnetism and electromagnetism with gravitation. This is already done by Finnish physicist Gunnar Nordstr�m at 1
914 using an extra spatial dimension. Next step was taken by mathematician Theodor Kaluza at 1919 and later at 1926 by Oscar Klein. Then these theories are named as Kaluza-Klein theories and become string theories. I do not understand them well or little,
 for more information you may refer "Modern Kaluza-Klein Theories - Frontiers in Physics Lecture Note Series, Adisson Wesley  09829, ISBN 0-201-09829-6.

(*) This noise may be formed by forces produced by a MG process. I figure these like forces between molecules inside a gas or liquid. They are instantaneous having random directions. cumulative effect appears static and omnidirectional, form the macroscop
ic ordinary gravity, similarly to pressure inside a liquid.

Frederick, accelerated frame magnetism and electromagnetism is deep subject that I can not give answer before studying it well. May I give some recent references on this subject.


Regards, hamdi

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramid vs Silica gel
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>>Try a few packets of Silica Gel or Activated Alumina in a jar vs
>>a Pyramid Scheme, Knuke.
>>
>>This should shrink a banana from 8 inches to 4 inches a lot faster.
>>
>>BTW, if the Egyptians had used silica gel , they might not have had to
>>go to all that effort of building Pyramids.  :-)
>>
>>Regards,    Frederick
>
>Actually, there was a report done by a couple of Aussie PhD's not tooo long
>ago, where they got some samples of the gigantic blocks at Cheops, and
>analysed them.  They reported that they were made of what they termed a
>"geopolymer" material consisting of both organic and inorganic material,
>indicating that the blocks may have been poured in place like concrete,
>instead of quarried and rodeoed up into place.

***{Yup. I read about that roughly a month ago in connection with a dispute
about "exploding concrete" over on sci.physics.fusion. Here is one of the
URL's: http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeo1a.html . It's very interesting
stuff because the theory explains most of the supposed anomalies relating
to the construction process. (E.g., how did they make adjacent blocks fit
together so well?) --MJ}***

Alumina was one of the
>substances found in the samples.  Who knows?  It is weird though that it
>dehydrates stuff when it is made out of any material, and even just paper,
>as some have reported.  I've thought about them from a number of different
>perspectives or approaches, and decided that pyramids are just weird, and
>the more I think about them the less I know.
>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 13:08:27 2000
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Subject: Re: suppression of F E technology?
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On 9 Sep 2000, at 21:46, David Dennard wrote:

> It has always been the passions of 
> amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great 
> discoveries... 

That is a crock of BS and your spouting it every time you post 
something doesn't make it true.

--Lynn

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This sounds to me like the "poured Cheops Pyramid blocks" scheme that 
Knuke and Mitchell Jones are talking about.   :-)

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/09/08/mars.bars.ap/index.html

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 13:38:16 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Accelerated Frame Magnetism vs Inertial Frame Magnetism

Very interesting, Hamdi. Thanks for the references.

Remember that  " Big G" (6.67E-11) factors out:

(6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2  = 0.02583 Ampere-Meters/Kilogram indicating
that the Magneto-Gravitational (MG) Force is a Magnetostatic Force:

F = 1.0E-7 * M1*M2/ R^2  (newtons)  Where M1 and M2 are in Ampere-Meters.

M1 or M2 should be 4.8E-11 Ampere-Meters for any "quark" or Superstring, but
since the "Spin" is in an Accelerated Reference Frame (according to GR) their
clocks slow down by a factor of ~ 3.5E18 for a String or ~ 2.0E21 for an electron,
resulting in a "loop current" of ~ 4.6E-13 amperes for a "Quark/String" etc.

Thus the force on a 1.0 Ampere-Meter Current Loop (in the right Reference Frame) at
the Earth's surface is:

F =   1.0E-7* 1.0 * 0.02583 * 5.98E24/(6.38E6)^2 = 379 newtons or 85 pounds!

5.98E24 is the Earth's Mass (kg)  and 6.38E6 is the Earth's Radius (km).

>From this the MG  "B  Field" at the Earth's Surface calculates out to ~1.52 to  ~4.7 KiloTesla
with or without Gravitational Noise!  :-)

Unlike Electric Dipoles where the force is 1/r^3 the Magnetic Dipole force is 1/r^2.

Regards,    Frederick


>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > Ie., GR treatment  (Magnetogravity Fields) vs SR treatment (Ordinary Magnetism)of
> > EM effects.
> >
> > What's the difference of one wrt the other, Hamdi?   :-)
> >
> > Regards, Frederick
>
> Uh, may magneto-gravitational (MG) phenomena can not be understand in the scope of GR,
although I think the ordinary gravity is a noise of subatomic particles produce incoherently(*).
This noise may be formed by forces produced by a MG process. I figure out these like forces
between molecules inside a gas or liquid. They are instantaneous having random directions.
cumulative effect appears static and omnidirectional, like a pressure.
>
> It appears the MG phenomena differs, look like a coherent process and exhibit directional
characteristics. I had not studied GR, but it is possible that GR provide mathematical tools to
formulate the gravitation produced by MG. GR deals with spacetime curvatures, and MG appears as
a coherent process at atomic level, the common point is the nuclear density is very larger than
the ordinary matter density, and the gravitational interactions inside the nuclei. So curvature
the nuclei scale may play role on MG. Interestingly, magnetic fields in nuclei are also very
strong. Isn't it? So the conditions are favorable to look MG as a general relativistic effect.
But this is not enough to unify ordinary gravity and the MG under GR. I think MG is the cause of
the ordinary gravity in stochastic, macroscopic form, and I dont know how this be resolved in
GR.
>
> 'SR treatment' have a different context than 'GR treatment' that I wrote above. As SR does
embed gravitation, may provide better methods unify magnetism and electromagnetism with
gravitation. This is already done by Finnish physicist Gunnar Nordstr�m at 1914 using an extra
spatial dimension. Next step was taken by mathematician Theodor Kaluza at 1919 and later at 1926
by Oscar Klein. Then these theories are named as Kaluza-Klein theories and become string
theories. I do not understand them well or little, for more information you may refer "Modern
Kaluza-Klein Theories - Frontiers in Physics Lecture Note Series, Adisson Wesley  09829, ISBN
0-201-09829-6.
>
> (*) This noise may be formed by forces produced by a MG process. I figure these like forces
between molecules inside a gas or liquid. They are instantaneous having random directions.
cumulative effect appears static and omnidirectional, form the macroscopic ordinary gravity,
similarly to pressure inside a liquid.
>
> Frederick, accelerated frame magnetism and electromagnetism is deep subject that I can not
give answer before studying it well. May I give some recent references on this subject.
>
>
> Regards, hamdi
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 15:08:29 2000
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You folks that are scienctists must surely be enraged that what you thought 
was real is just bunk.  You surely must not respect the words of our 
country's foremost astrophysicist when she said, "scientists are going to 
have to give up their most precious beliefs".  You surely show her words 
correct that scientist will go "kicking and screaming" into the next 
century.  Lynn or any of you folks that are scientists have been given the 
challange to present whirlpool data and debunk what I have stated and what 
is stated at the maelstrom page.  You have yet to meet the challange.  
That's real science.  Theorists propose, scientists dispose.

I understand it must make you angry, surely your students will laugh at you 
for pretending to "know" what you do not know.  But science is based on 
facts not clout, not unproven ancient theory.  Yet you still speak of 
Einstein as if it is real science!!!  Amazing.  In the light of current 
accepted facts.  You saw the flat space reports.  You saw they have now 
stated our science will have to be re-written.  I don't see why a real 
scientist would not be most excited about the truth, the facts, that's what 
science is about, not some old dark ages voodoo.  Now we have the Hubble, it 
is like a blind man being given the gift of sight.  Cast off the old 
Einstein stuff and step into the light.  It's not a void, curved, finite 
universe.  It is a flat, fluid, infinite universe.

It not the truth better than you trying to save face on a sinking ship?

On my list Stephen agrees, I not saying a crock of anything.  The crock is 
evident.

--- In whirlpower egroups.com, seh1960@a... wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>Sorry it took me so long to reply.  I'm afraid I don't have much to add in 
>the way of technical or scientific help.  The best I can do is provide some 
>encouragement and moral support.  I believe you are right about most new 
>and innovative ideas coming from outside the established scientific 
>beliefs.  Don't give up, persistence can overcome almost any obstacles.  
>Stephen


Now on to more on the cosmological constant as posted to my list.

Enjoy!!  :)

David


Hi folks,

In reply to the question on the infinite, flat space shows the universe does 
not have an edge.  The edge of the universe has dominated cosmology thought 
for a century.  Einstein's universe had a defined edge, a maximum width.  
That's why they thought light was a limiting speed, and a universal 
constant, a thermodynamic paradigm.

But the facts show a different story.  I think it best explained by Ripples. 
  One more facet of the next draft of THE ROSE.  Any who have not read THE 
ROSE just type it in the search box.



                          Ripples

When you throw a rock in a pond and watch the splash and ripples do you 
marvel at what you see?  I think you should.  That spells out the 
cosmological constant.  And looks a lot like a whirlpool does it not?

When the rock hits the surface, water is displaced, then it slams back 
together and makes the splash and ripples.  What "causes" the water to slam 
back together?  Gravity.

Same thing happens when lightning strikes.  The static charge seperates the 
atmosphere, then gravity slams the atmosphere back together and makes the 
thunder roll.  Hear the thunder, feel "The Force" of nature.

This is the action of the cosmological constant Einstein first thought of 
and returned to working on all his later years.  He knew the numbers didn't 
add up.  They had to be "fudged" to make it all fit.  And science has been 
fudging ever since.  In THE ROSE it is shown where the numbers do not add up 
in the gravity telescope, and Dr. Rubin points to how the numbers on the 
Einstein Rings have to be "teased" to make it come out right.

Ripples, the splash and ripple mass and speed of the water in motion is far 
greater than the mass and speed of the rock.  It is not a simple cause and 
effect relationship.  That is Maya, the surface appearance of things.  We 
must start to see the Guya, the total systems perspective to understand how 
things work, the Tao.

*********



_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 16:39:45 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> You folks that are scienctists must surely be enraged that what you thought
> was real is just bunk.

---
On the contrary, David, those of us who _are_ scientists and hold
science sacred realize that we need to be able to give up all our
beliefs at a moment's notice if we are presented with new truth.  A tiny
example is Newton's E = MV^2, which was limitless.  Einstein refined it
and defined the limit of velocity for particles exhibiting mass to
nearly the speed of light and changed the equation to E = MC^2, where C
is the speed of light.  A tiny change, but a change which changed the
world.
---  


> You surely must not respect the words of our
> country's foremost astrophysicist when she said, "scientists are going to
> have to give up their most precious beliefs".  You surely show her words
> correct that scientist will go "kicking and screaming" into the next
> century.

---
On the contrary again, David, those of us who are amenable to change,
will.
---

> Lynn or any of you folks that are scientists have been given the
> challange to present whirlpool data and debunk what I have stated and what
> is stated at the maelstrom page.  You have yet to meet the challange.
> That's real science.  Theorists propose, scientists dispose.

---
David, you still don't get it, do you?
Nobody cares.  

You say mainstream science is despicable and then you ask mainstream
science to support you.  You've put yourself in an untenable situation.
---

 
> I understand it must make you angry, surely your students will laugh at you
> for pretending to "know" what you do not know.


---
You've been asked for objective data more than once and you've always
tried to dodge and weave your way out of responding to the request, so
it's obvious that you're calling the kettle black.
---

>  But science is based on
> facts not clout,

---
You have no facts, you have no clout, and you hate science, so what are
you trying to prove?
---  

> not unproven ancient theory.  Yet you still speak of
> Einstein as if it is real science!!!  

---
You know what, David?  You're a loser.  How dare you speak of Einstein
as if you had even the slightest insight into his mind?  You're really
pathetic, and you need to get over that handicap thing, which you think
you can use as a weapon.
---

> Amazing.  In the light of current
> accepted facts. 

---
Yeah, right. 
So you're falling in line with the "current accepted facts" because
they're attention-getting and different from the "previously accepted
facts" and you need to latch onto anything which will help you air your
misconceptions.
--- 

>  You saw the flat space reports.  You saw they have now
> stated our science will have to be re-written.  I don't see why a real
> scientist would not be most excited about the truth, the facts, that's what
> science is about, not some old dark ages voodoo.  Now we have the Hubble, it
> is like a blind man being given the gift of sight.  Cast off the old
> Einstein stuff and step into the light.  It's not a void, curved, finite
> universe.  It is a flat, fluid, infinite universe.
> 
> It not the truth better than you trying to save face on a sinking ship?

---
You're the one who is sinking, David.
---
 
> On my list Stephen agrees, I not saying a crock of anything.  The crock is
> evident.

---
It sure is, and it's cracked!
---


> --- In whirlpower egroups.com, seh1960@a... wrote:
> >Hi Dave,
> >Sorry it took me so long to reply.  I'm afraid I don't have much to add in
> >the way of technical or scientific help.  The best I can do is provide some
> >encouragement and moral support.  I believe you are right about most new
> >and innovative ideas coming from outside the established scientific
> >beliefs.  Don't give up, persistence can overcome almost any obstacles.
> >Stephen

---
Hmmm... a get well card from an admirer.
---


 
> Now on to more on the cosmological constant as posted to my list.
> 
> Enjoy!!  :)
> 
> David
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> In reply to the question on the infinite, flat space shows the universe does
> not have an edge.  The edge of the universe has dominated cosmology thought
> for a century.  Einstein's universe had a defined edge, a maximum width.
> That's why they thought light was a limiting speed, and a universal
> constant, a thermodynamic paradigm.

---
No, dumbass, the red shift increases to the point where the universe has
a horizon beyond which we can't see.
---

Aaarghhhhh! 

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

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I noticed a couple of errors when I re-read my recent posts:

(1) In my post to Jean-Paul Lentin, I said:

"Since you likened it to theGreat Pyramid, I assume that your pyramid model
consisted of four equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form
a half-octagon,but I need a bit more detail."

That should have been "half-octahedron."

(2) In my post to Bill Beaty, I said:

"Bottom line: adopting a term such as "provisional belief" does nothing to
innoculate a person against bias. There is only one way to do that: you
must train your thought process to criticize *all* answers to any question
you are trying to answer, rather than merely the answers you want to
believe."

The last word should have been "disbelieve" not believe.

--Mitchell Jones


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John Fields writes:

>we need to be able to give up all our beliefs at a moment's notice if we 
>are presented with new truth.

Dr. Vera Rubin has given it.  The flat space teams for Princeton to Berkeley 
have given it.

>changed the equation to E = MC^2, where C is the speed of light.

And it is now changing again, C stood for light constant.  Lightspeed is not 
a constant, it relates to density.

>David, you still don't get it, do you?
>Nobody cares.

Maybe you don't care, but you don't speak for everyone, this is not YOUR 
company.  Here you are not El Presidente.  You just jump in on me because 
you think I am weak and you can bully me around.  But others have already 
noticed this and posted such.  I'd say you and your name calling is on 
notice.

>No, dumbass, the red shift increases to the point where the universe has
>a horizon beyond which we can't see.

>Aaarghhhhh!

The red shift is not what they previously thought as many scientists are now 
starting to realize.  The PhDs on my list know about it.  Big Bang is 
Science Fiction.

>
>In message <199909180016.RAA25099 m...> Joe
>Firmage writes:
>
>New Observations of Cosmology at the Millennium
>
>There are, in fact, many reasons for people to consider looking a
>life with an interesting new kind of optimistic wonder. In 1999, a 
>remarkable debate has begun to sweep into the view of the public. It is the 
>discussion among scientists over the accuracy of the Big Bang hypothesis of 
>creation.
>
>"I believe the observational evidence has become overwhelming, and
>the Big Bang has in reality been toppled. There is now a need to 
>communicate the new observations, the connections between objects and the 
>new insights into the workings of the universe - all the primary 
>obligations of academic science," says Arp, a highly respected scientist 
>whose observations are the growing subject of intense debate.

>Other scientists strongly disagree with Arp's views, but there are
>growing indications that he is right, and that one of the primary bases 
>upon which the Big Bang hypothesis is hinged - extra-galactic redshift 
>primarily as the measure of recessional velocity - is incorrect.

>Compelling observations have been repeated many times now demonstrating 
>that mysterious objects known as "quasars" are not in fact the most distant 
>objects in the Universe are some of which are alleged to be speeding away 
>from us at several times the speed of light. Instead, quasars appear to be 
>ejecta from the nuclei of galaxies much closer to us. High-redshift quasars 
>have been observed to be physically connected to low-redshift galaxies.
>
>Arps observations go further. Like those of quasars, high redshifts
>observed in the spectra of young galaxies appear to have a cause other than 
>recessional motion. His work strongly suggests that quasars are, in fact, 
>young galaxies, given birth from parent galaxies. One can speculate that 
>the anomalous redshift effect might be caused as originating light 
>interacts with vast clouds of electrons or ionized gas, like a kind of 
>amniotic plasma surrounding the evolving body. If exaggerated redshift in 
>the spectra of young galaxies is not primarily caused by recessional 
>motion, then it is quite plausible that, in general, galaxies are not 
>flying away from us, and "Big Bang" is unintentional science fiction.

>These are stunning observations! They should startle every physicist,
>giving us new reason to reconsider old assumptions.


So John, tell me in some civil rational tone why science should adopt your 
"nobody cares" attitude about whirlpools, a known event in nature, very 
mysterious, kinda scary, spooky!!  Boo!!!

Is that it?  Does something unknown scare you?  IF you have stock in the oil 
companies it better scare you.  :)

David

P.S. Michael, still interested in your comments on ripple drive related to 
you waterwheel.  I though I saw Fields get interested in viscosity feedback. 
  But don't drip on the wheel, let the wheel ride the ripple.  Surfs UP!

:)

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 19:57:42 2000
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	Dear Folks,

	I have built several different sizes and kinds of round shrt
cylinder containers....
	I have found no case where friction of water with the sides of the
container overcomes the movement around the container.   I find I must
continue to add energy, and have tried pumps, peristalsis, paddles, bladed
systes, the rotors and impellers from pumps, fans and the like.

	The primary questions:

	Q: 	What SPECIFIC design causes friction to be overcome?
	Q:	What SPECIFIC design or method;

			a]	is required to DRIVE the system[s]
			b]	is required to extract energy and in doing
so allows the whirlpool to keep going

	The observations to date show the movements of a whirlpool to be
very beautiful and compelling.  It is easy to see where a visualization
can fool someone into thinking you can get move energy out than you put
in.   If you put NO OBSTRUCTION in the water things can move smoothly and
wobble and this overall movement of the weight of water appears to carry
energy.... BUT:  It slows and then stops.... if you put paddles or blades,
as drawn in the site.


	Any new details?


On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, hamdi ucar wrote:

> 
> Sorry guys, if you have something to say about my 'thoughts' state here (on this subject), otherwise dont be lazy and put subjects not related to "Some thoughts on the search of anomalous phenonomena - Part One" under their own identificating subject li
nes. (Whirlpool things is a major subject and deserve be discussed under its own thread, IMO.)
> 
> Regards, hamdi
> 
> 
> David Dennard wrote:
> > 
> > Hawking says we need one theory, the TOE.
> > 
> > And when a whirlpool is shown to generate electricity, well, the answer will
> > be evident.  The answer from an unimportant person who gave his informtion
> > freely to all.  Any here could have built a whirlpool over the couple of
> > years.  Sheer ignorance has stopped you.
> [snip]
> 


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John,

Since you have been a witness for the prosecution in this case, hostile and 
had missrepresented what I say for a very long time, what you said about not 
having web access thus you can't see me drawings, that you have never once 
described that you built a whirlpool correctly as I have described, I have 
to take what you say as non scientific and most likely not even true.

A do however hold out hope you may actually be trying and have treated you 
with as much respect as I can muster and have typed and retyped answers to 
your questions, however off beat, many, many times.  Here and on other 
lists.

If you want to work on this, I am thankfull, but you need to post photos of 
your work.


John wrote:
>
>	I have built several different sizes and kinds of round shrt
>cylinder containers....
>	I have found no case where friction of water with the sides of the
>container overcomes the movement around the container.

What does this mean?  The whirlpool should spin freely in the water.  The 
container should not affect the whirlpool.  The whirlpool is not made by 
spinning water around the sides of the container, like that little sink in 
the dentists office, that will only make a gapping tornado type vortex as 
described in "The Anatomy of a Whirlpool".

There is no container in the photo;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

That's the first step.  Make a correct whirlpool.  Post the photo.


  I find I must
>continue to add energy, and have tried pumps, peristalsis, paddles, bladed
>systes, the rotors and impellers from pumps, fans and the like.

Have you made a whirlpool?  The whirlpool is made by pumping the least 
possible amount of water, just a little squirt, from the drain opening to 
the perimeter, at least two pipes on opposite sides.  Have you done that?  
Post the photo so we can all see it and you will have made scientific 
history by all accounts.

This system runs continuously and is never shut off.  If it is shut off the 
whirlpools will stop.  No one has ever said a whirlpool will run without the 
pumps.  That is the feedack and our tests show it takes only the tinniest 
feedback to make a massive powerful whirlpool.


>	The primary questions:
>
>	Q: 	What SPECIFIC design causes friction to be overcome?
>	Q:	What SPECIFIC design or method;
>
>			a]	is required to DRIVE the system[s]
>			b]	is required to extract energy and in doing
>so allows the whirlpool to keep going

If you have visited my website then you have seen full color drawings 
showing the Big Wheel and how it rides in the torus donut.  Not to be 
confused with with the toroid flow that has a donut shape in Chaos Theory, 
tornado vortex science.  The Big Wheel is not a turbine and does not touch 
any part of the whirlpool proper.  It only taps the frame dragging effect 
coming from the wobble of the whirlpool.  THAT is what Whirlpower is all 
about and the difference in Whirlpower compared to all other attempts to tap 
the vortex tried time and time again by many "real" scientist over the past 
century.  Even on this list.
>
>	The observations to date show the movements of a whirlpool to be
>very beautiful and compelling.  It is easy to see where a visualization
>can fool someone into thinking you can get move energy out than you put
>in.   If you put NO OBSTRUCTION in the water things can move smoothly and
>wobble and this overall movement of the weight of water appears to carry
>energy....

And no obstruction should be placed on the whirlpool itself.  That will 
"snuff out" the action.  That is what everyone else has tried with the 
tornado type vortex with the toroid flow of the vortex.  The torus donut is 
not the same as the donut shaped toroid flow.  See "Anatomy of a Whirlpool" 
below.  The Big Wheel is beneath the surface of the water and does not touch 
the whirlpool or the small vortex in the center of the whirlpool.

The ENERGY in Whirlpower is not coming from what you put in, it is coming 
from gravity.  Has nothing to do with what you put in.


BUT:  It slows and then stops.... if you put paddles or blades,
>as drawn in the site.

With the pumps running?  I don't think so.  Even if Whirlpower does not 
work, the whirlpool will not stop as long as the pumps are runnning and the 
set up is as I describe.  Because you state the whirlpool stops shows you 
are not doing this correctly or you are making false statements.

I state this test as either bogus, or a true attempt inaccurately done.  I 
hope the later, and I hope this will explain finally what you need to know 
to do it right.

Build a good whirlpool first and post the photo.  I suggest the parameters 
of width, depth, angle of input be adjustable so you can dial in the cosmic 
chord and find the dual radial arm pattern.  The whirlpool should look just 
a hurricane or a spiral galaxy.

John, if you are really trying, I thank you.  Get those photos up and do it 
right.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc
....................................................................

Anatomy of a Whirlpool

Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.

The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
lip.

        __      __
         "\    /"
        <' \  / '>
            \/


The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
inward spin.



____________E______________     ________________E_____________
            >              \   /               <
                         <' \ / '>
     ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^

            <                                   >

The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
the frame dragging wobble effect.

A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.


       ____                                         ____
        "  ---                                   ---  "
              ''''''....              ....''''''
                        ''''\    /''''
                   <'        \  /        '>
                              \/
                               \
                               /

This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.

The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
flusher is not a whirlpool.

This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
it is not, very different.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 10 21:36:49 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Yet Another Screw-up
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In my recent post correcting previous screw-ups, I screwed-up when I said:

"(1) In my post to Jean-Paul Lentin, I said:"

That should have been Jean-Pierre Lentin, not Jean-Paul.

:-(

--Mitchell Jones

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Accelerated Frame Magnetism vs Inertial Frame Magnetism
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At 2:31 PM 9/10/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

[snip]
>
>Unlike Electric Dipoles where the force is 1/r^3 the Magnetic Dipole force
>is 1/r^2.
[snip]

I hate to be so repetitious, but the above is still just simply not true.
It IS true that magnetic dipole (circular current loop) antenna radiation
(i.e. far field) is 1/r^2, just as is ordinary dipole antenna radiation.
However, the static (near) field of a magnetic dipole (current loop) is
1/r3, just as is the electrostatic dipole field.  For example, consider the
magnetic field on the central z axis of a current loop, of radius a,
located in the x-y plane.  The magnetic field B is given by:

   B = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi (a^2 + z^2)^(3/2))

which in the limit as a/z -->0 is:

   B = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi (z^2)^(3/2))

     = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi z^3)

thus B is clearly a 1/r^3 field.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Accelerated Frame Magnetism vs Inertial Frame Magnetism

For the last time:

The Force between Two Current Loops with M1 and M2 Ampere-Meters in each is:

F = 1.0E-7 * M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)

Do you get it?

Frederick
> At 2:31 PM 9/10/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> >
> >Unlike Electric Dipoles where the force is 1/r^3 the Magnetic Dipole force
> >is 1/r^2.
> [snip]
> 
> I hate to be so repetitious, but the above is still just simply not true.
> It IS true that magnetic dipole (circular current loop) antenna radiation
> (i.e. far field) is 1/r^2, just as is ordinary dipole antenna radiation.
> However, the static (near) field of a magnetic dipole (current loop) is
> 1/r3, just as is the electrostatic dipole field.  For example, consider the
> magnetic field on the central z axis of a current loop, of radius a,
> located in the x-y plane.  The magnetic field B is given by:
> 
>    B = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi (a^2 + z^2)^(3/2))
> 
> which in the limit as a/z -->0 is:
> 
>    B = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi (z^2)^(3/2))
> 
>      = (u0 I a^2)/ (4 Pi z^3)
> 
> thus B is clearly a 1/r^3 field.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 00:29:10 2000
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Subject: Re: Accelerated Frame Magnetism vs Inertial Frame Magnetism
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At 11:48 PM 9/10/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>For the last time:
>
>The Force between Two Current Loops with M1 and M2 Ampere-Meters in each is:
>
>F = 1.0E-7 * M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)
>
>Do you get it?


You have not specified the radii of the loops.  Therefore you imply the
radii are small with respect to R.  Further, it makes no sense to talk
about a "1/R^2" or "1/R3 field" if the radii are large with respect to
distance.  Since the static B field projected by a magnetic dipole is
1/R^3, when a/R is near zero, the above formulation appears to be wrong.
Do you have a reference or detailed derivation for it?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Borrowing from "Mr. Tompkins", assume the speed-of-light is
10 miles per hour, and you have Three Merry-go-Rounds,
A, B, and C, each equipped at the perimeter with a radio transmitter putting
out a 100 to 1,000 Megahertz CW "tone" along with receivers that can be tuned
from 1.0  to 10 megahertz (along with a beat frequency oscillator BFO).

Now then A and B are rotating with a peripheral velocity so close
to c, that their gammas are each 100 due to the accelerated frame "slowing
of the clocks" effect, so that their receivers tuned between 1.0 and 10 megahertz get the
signals
which beat with the local oscillator to get a 10 kc tone heard by the hapless
radio jocks along for the ride.  :-)

What Doppler Shifts come into the beat frequency tone?

Merry-go-Round C is not turning, but listening to A and B.

What frequencies will C's receivers pick up?

Does C have to rotate at the same velocity as A or  B in order to
get the lowest frequency reception?

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 05:38:52 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> John Fields writes:
> 
> >we need to be able to give up all our beliefs at a moment's notice if we
> >are presented with new truth.
> 
> Dr. Vera Rubin has given it.  The flat space teams for Princeton to Berkeley
> have given it.
> 
> >changed the equation to E = MC^2, where C is the speed of light.
> 
> And it is now changing again, C stood for light constant.  Lightspeed is not
> a constant, it relates to density.

---
"C" stood, and stands, for the velocity of light, and where did I say it
was a constant?
Matter of fact, it's possible to exceed the speed of light.  Check out
Cerenkov radiation.
---
 
> >David, you still don't get it, do you?
> >Nobody cares.

---
It's a figurative "nobody", as you well know.
---

> Maybe you don't care, but you don't speak for everyone, this is not YOUR
> company.  Here you are not El Presidente.  You just jump in on me because
> you think I am weak and you can bully me around.  

---
No, David, I "jump in on you" because you're a rabble-rouser and you
make statements and conjectures which beg to be challenged.
---

> But others have already
> noticed this and posted such.  I'd say you and your name calling is on
> notice.

---
That's fine. If Bill sees fit fit to knock me off the list or asks me to
stop I will.  Otherwise, David, I'm doing the same thing you are;
stating an opinion.
---

 
> >No, dumbass, the red shift increases to the point where the universe has
> >a horizon beyond which we can't see.
> 
> >Aaarghhhhh!

 
> The red shift is not what they previously thought as many scientists are now
> starting to realize.  The PhDs on my list know about it.  Big Bang is
> Science Fiction.
> 
> >
> >In message <199909180016.RAA25099 m...> Joe
> >Firmage writes:
> >
> >New Observations of Cosmology at the Millennium
> >
> >There are, in fact, many reasons for people to consider looking a
> >life with an interesting new kind of optimistic wonder. In 1999, a
> >remarkable debate has begun to sweep into the view of the public. It is the
> >discussion among scientists over the accuracy of the Big Bang hypothesis of
> >creation.
> >
> >"I believe the observational evidence has become overwhelming, and
> >the Big Bang has in reality been toppled. There is now a need to
> >communicate the new observations, the connections between objects and the
> >new insights into the workings of the universe - all the primary
> >obligations of academic science," says Arp, a highly respected scientist
> >whose observations are the growing subject of intense debate.
> 
> >Other scientists strongly disagree with Arp's views, but there are
> >growing indications that he is right, and that one of the primary bases
> >upon which the Big Bang hypothesis is hinged - extra-galactic redshift
> >primarily as the measure of recessional velocity - is incorrect.
> 
> >Compelling observations have been repeated many times now demonstrating
> >that mysterious objects known as "quasars" are not in fact the most distant
> >objects in the Universe are some of which are alleged to be speeding away
> >from us at several times the speed of light. Instead, quasars appear to be
> >ejecta from the nuclei of galaxies much closer to us. High-redshift quasars
> >have been observed to be physically connected to low-redshift galaxies.
> >
> >Arps observations go further. Like those of quasars, high redshifts
> >observed in the spectra of young galaxies appear to have a cause other than
> >recessional motion. His work strongly suggests that quasars are, in fact,
> >young galaxies, given birth from parent galaxies. One can speculate that
> >the anomalous redshift effect might be caused as originating light
> >interacts with vast clouds of electrons or ionized gas, like a kind of
> >amniotic plasma surrounding the evolving body. If exaggerated redshift in
> >the spectra of young galaxies is not primarily caused by recessional
> >motion, then it is quite plausible that, in general, galaxies are not
> >flying away from us, and "Big Bang" is unintentional science fiction.
> 
> >These are stunning observations! They should startle every physicist,
> >giving us new reason to reconsider old assumptions.

---
Something to think about, certainly.
Something to get your panties in a bunch about, hardly.
---

> So John, tell me in some civil rational tone why science should adopt your
> "nobody cares" attitude about whirlpools, a known event in nature, very
> mysterious, kinda scary, spooky!!  Boo!!!

---
I'm not advocating that anyone should adopt any kind of an attitude
about anything, rather I'm just pointing out what seems to be a fact. 
Rephrasing it for accuracy, I'd say "almost nobody cares".
---

> Is that it?  Does something unknown scare you?  IF you have stock in the oil
> companies it better scare you.  :)
> 
> David

---
That's an example of a civil, rational, tone??
---

Just for fun, here's a little question for ya:

Assuming an intake of 3000 calories (kilocalories, actually) per day,
how many watts does it take to run a human?

Here's another one:

Assuming the total output of the sun is worth a million dollars, how
much is what hits the earth worth?

---


John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 09:43:52 2000
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From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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Hello,
   First, if both of you are arguing about the end (physical) or the beginning
(chronological) of the universe I think you ought to find something more down to
earth <grin> to argue about. You can't actually prove either without complex
math and it is the perfect example of what I meant. With the right spin you can
"prove" anything is just the way you want it to be. Much better just to accept
the latest theories at face value until they are either proven correct or
replaced. Less painful that way.
In regard to below; I have been thinking about the whirlpool thing but it hasn't
really caught my interest. Not to say it isn't valid. I don't know that. The
link to the paper I did this weekend does work, maybe have to reload a couple
times. nbc merged with xoom and messed things up.
Thought. Pump moves an amount of water from a container. It uses a known,
constant amount of energy to do this. With ONE water wheel you can almost get
enough power to run pump. What if you add pelton wheel ABOVE water wheel? pelton
wheel is struck with flow of water as it exits pump at bottom and turned,
converting the kinetic energy of the flow. Water THEN drops a couple inches onto
TOP of water wheel where gravity gives kinetic energy to generate power. Just a
thought.
Did you know that whirlpools in your tub drain always rotate counter clockwise
in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Must be
tied in to the earth's energy field(s)
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> J
>
> P.S. Michael, still interested in your comments on ripple drive related to
> you waterwheel.  I though I saw Fields get interested in viscosity feedback.
>   But don't drip on the wheel, let the wheel ride the ripple.  Surfs UP!
>
> :)
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 09:52:10 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Accelerated Frame (Three Merry-go-Round) Puzzle
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At 4:39 AM 9/11/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Borrowing from "Mr. Tompkins", assume the speed-of-light is


Is "Mr. Tompkins" a reference?



>10 miles per hour, and you have Three Merry-go-Rounds,
>A, B, and C, each equipped at the perimeter with a radio transmitter putting
>out a 100 to 1,000 Megahertz CW "tone" along with receivers that can be tuned
>from 1.0  to 10 megahertz (along with a beat frequency oscillator BFO).
>
>Now then A and B are rotating with a peripheral velocity so close
>to c, that their gammas are each 100 due to the accelerated frame "slowing
>of the clocks" effect, so that their receivers tuned between 1.0 and 10
>megahertz get the
>signals
>which beat with the local oscillator to get a 10 kc tone heard by the hapless
>radio jocks along for the ride.  :-)
>
>What Doppler Shifts come into the beat frequency tone?
>
>Merry-go-Round C is not turning, but listening to A and B.
>
>What frequencies will C's receivers pick up?
>
>Does C have to rotate at the same velocity as A or  B in order to
>get the lowest frequency reception?


Why do you digress to equating near field forces with far field forces?  If
you apply a beat frequency to a 1/r^3 field you'll merely get a beating
1/r^3 effect.  You keep jumping back and forth between the magnetic field
simple static current loop vs radiation concepts without any justification.
Maybe you have some justification, but the communication of it simply has
not come through, at least to me, nor does your formulation make any sense
experimentally.

I am not against the possibility of a 1/r^2 near field type magnetic force
from a current loop, and in fact my special relativity based analysis shows
that this very kind of 1/r^2 of force should exist, but with a very
different formulation.  However, it is not clear how you made this implied
leap between the two differing force types, or that your formulation is
anywhere near correct quantitatively.  Your formulation does not include
charge velocity, for example.

However, the above discussion is a bit of a digression from the point at
hand, which is the following:

At 2:31 PM 9/10/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

[snip]
>
>Unlike Electric Dipoles where the force is 1/r^3 the Magnetic Dipole force
>is 1/r^2.
[snip]


The above statement is simply not true if it is applied to ordinary DC
current loops, especially as per:

At 11:48 PM 9/10/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>The Force between Two Current Loops with M1 and M2 Ampere-Meters in each is:
>
>F = 1.0E-7 * M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)


This does not even closely approximate the ampere force for normal static
current loops, over a variety of distances R, even if they are maintained
in axial alignment.  I take it you define the ampere-meters for a current
loop to be the current times the perimeter length, i.e (2 Pi r^2 I)?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 10:31:49 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Mitch writes:
>***{Now we are getting somewhere. This is the kind of information a person
>needs, in order to justify investing time and effort investigating what, on
>the surface, seems to be a rather silly claim. Since you likened it to the
>Great Pyramid, I assume that your pyramid model consisted of four
>equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form a half-octagon,
>but I need a bit more detail. What was the approximate length of one of the
>edges? What kind of surface was it resting on during the experiment--e.g.,
>formica, wood, glass, etc? Were the conditions in the room humid or dry?
>Was there a source of heat nearby? (E.g., was it near a window where it
>could be exposed to direct sunlight?) --MJ}***

Hi Mitch,

This is just a quick note, but the 4 triangles are not equilateral.  I
forget what the exact angles are, but it shouldn't be hard to find out.  My
base edge was probably between 8 to 10 inches, and the height was about a
foot.  I left the bottom open, and the table I sat it on had like a shiney
black, formica finish. I just set the banana on the table under pyramid.
Evidently, there are "sweet spot" areas inside of it where the effects can
vary, but I didn't fool with that.  The banana just barely fit in there
horizontally at the bottom.  My pyramid was black.  It was about 4 feet or
so from a large, open window, towards the center of the room which had a
steam radiator type heater that was off, and one of the sides of the pyramid
was facing the magnetic North Pole.  There are detailed instructions around
as to the proper measurements I'm sure, and I'll see if I can find them.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 10:33:32 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Accelerated Frame Magnetism vs Inertial Frame Magnetism
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>
>Frederick Sparber wrote:
>> 
>> Ie., GR treatment  (Magnetogravity Fields) vs SR treatment (Ordinary
Magnetism)of
>> EM effects.
>> 
>> What's the difference of one wrt the other, Hamdi?   :-)
>> 
>> Regards, Frederick

Hi Fred,

I know you are asking Hamdi, and I'm asking questions in return, but how
does SR and GR treat the subject of diamagnetism?  How can this property or
behavior be found in macroscopic forms, if it can't be found in atomic or
subatomic forms?  Or can it?  It is still something relatively new to me.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 13:42:23 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Power Pyramid, Nature's Microwave Concentrator?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:41:52 -0400
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> The Centimeter Wavelength Microwave/Infrared Radiation from molecular
radiation at
> ~ 300 K should be concentrated by the Pyramid configuration.
>
> Thus absorption of these by a "hydrated" substrate should result in
> dehydration/desiccation wrt a non-concentrating "control"?
>
Patrick Flanagan, a researcher in many unconventional science areas and
author of a book about pyramids agrees with your spectrum assignment for
the pyramid effect. His book contains summaries of many of his pyramid
experiments.
He claims that his "Sensor " pendants are flattened
pyramids and have similar effects.
http://www.flantech.com/sensors/sensorscience/sensorscience.html
includes the following:

In 1978; the Flanagan Sensor II design was tested in the laboratory of Dr.
Philip Callahan of the University of Florida in Gainesville. Dr. Callahan placed
the Sensor design in a Fast Fourrier Transform Infra-Red Spectrometer and
discovered that the Sensor device is a resonator for Far Infra Red [ FIR ]
energy in the 1 to 10 micron waveband. Dr. Calahan's studies indicate that far
infra-red wavelengths are trigger energies for biological processes in all
living systems.
-----------------------
I haven't tried any pyramids or pendants, but Flanagan's Microhydrin seems
to work wonders for my energy level, much more so than stimulants like coffee.
You can read about Microhydrin at his site. It's a fascinating story and about
as
accepted by conventional medicine as cold fusion is in physics.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Accelerated Frame
Cc: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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It appears vortex is down.

Here are some forces computed using ordinary Ampere-Biot-Savart metods, for
ordinary DC coils of radius 20 cm, of square cross section 0.5 cm per side,
carring 200 amps, and axially aligned.


  Separation R           Force
   (in m.)             (Newtons)
  ------------      ---------------

    0.20              2.87x10^-2
   10.00              3.78x10^-8
   20.00              2.37x10^-9
   30.00              4.68x10^-10


Total conductor center-line length is 1.257 m for each coil, giving 251.4
amp-meters per coil.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 14:38:00 2000
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One of my vortex-l posts has disappeared - hopefully swallowed up by some
router somewhere and not vortex-l, which does seem to be working.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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MJ,

You still don't get it yet if you think the drain in the bathtub is a 
whirlpool.  That is a tornado type vortex.

If you have not seen the photo of a whirlpool, the only photo known to 
exist, I suggest you take a look;

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

or on my splash page;

http://www.whirlpower.cc

And you still made no comment on ripple drive.  Nor has anyone.  Nor any 
comments on ripples.  Ripples will drive you wheel but any action up or down 
on the vertical axis will not find any energy.  That has been proven time 
and time again.  Tornado type vorticies, the corkscrew spiral, Chaos Theory, 
has been tested.  NO energy.

What has not been tested are ripples and whirlpools.

David


>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Ripples
>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:50:12 -0400
>
>Hello,
>    First, if both of you are arguing about the end (physical) or the 
>beginning
>(chronological) of the universe I think you ought to find something more 
>down to
>earth <grin> to argue about. You can't actually prove either without 
>complex
>math and it is the perfect example of what I meant. With the right spin you 
>can
>"prove" anything is just the way you want it to be. Much better just to 
>accept
>the latest theories at face value until they are either proven correct or
>replaced. Less painful that way.
>In regard to below; I have been thinking about the whirlpool thing but it 
>hasn't
>really caught my interest. Not to say it isn't valid. I don't know that. 
>The
>link to the paper I did this weekend does work, maybe have to reload a 
>couple
>times. nbc merged with xoom and messed things up.
>Thought. Pump moves an amount of water from a container. It uses a known,
>constant amount of energy to do this. With ONE water wheel you can almost 
>get
>enough power to run pump. What if you add pelton wheel ABOVE water wheel? 
>pelton
>wheel is struck with flow of water as it exits pump at bottom and turned,
>converting the kinetic energy of the flow. Water THEN drops a couple inches 
>onto
>TOP of water wheel where gravity gives kinetic energy to generate power. 
>Just a
>thought.
>Did you know that whirlpools in your tub drain always rotate counter 
>clockwise
>in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Must 
>be
>tied in to the earth's energy field(s)
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > J
> >
> > P.S. Michael, still interested in your comments on ripple drive related 
>to
> > you waterwheel.  I though I saw Fields get interested in viscosity 
>feedback.
> >   But don't drip on the wheel, let the wheel ride the ripple.  Surfs UP!
> >
> > :)
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 15:10:25 2000
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:33:11 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Antigravity & Accelerated Frame
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Here are some theoretical numbers of possible interest for ordinary DC
coils of radius 20 cm, of square cross section 0.5 cm per side, carring 200
amps, and axially aligned.


  Separation R           Force
   (in m.)             (Newtons)
  ------------      ---------------

    0.20              2.87x10^-2
   10.00              3.78x10^-8
   20.00              2.37x10^-9
   30.00              4.68x10^-10


Total conductor center-line length is 1.257 m for each coil, giving 251.4
amp-meters per coil.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 15:24:35 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electromagnetism  (Bill Beaty's questions)
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At 1:54 PM 9/8/0, William Beaty wrote:

>Is
>the force on a distant wire produced by a circular current really just the
>sum of millions of tiny straight-line currents, or does the curvature of
>the current path do anything interesting?


There sometimes seem to be about as many opinions on this as there are
authors that address the issue.  It is of interest that various authors
(e.g. Moon, Rosser, Frisch and Wilets) derive forces (fields) due to charge
acceleration using either Galilean and Lorentzian transformations.   For
example, Frisch and Wilets derive:

   E = Ev + Ea

   Ev = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3) [r - r u/c][1 - v^2/c^2]

   Ea = q/(4 Pi e0 s^3 c^2) {r x ([r - r u/c] x [a])}

   s = [r - (r dot u)/c]

where r, u, and a are vectors, and Ea is the field generated due to
acceleration.  My contribution to the fray is in discovering that there is
a net electrostatic field generated in the plane of the rotating ring.
Rosser derives an equation from Frisch and Willets' equations that results
in no net force in the plane of the current, but which I have shown
indicates a net axial electrostatic force as well.



>For really huge levels of
>current, does a spinning ring of charge do anything that a straight line
>flow of charge does not?


I think there is strong evidence that there is a difference, as I have
posted here in detail in a prior discussion with Larry Wharton.  A spinning
current ring should have a non-conservative apparent (relativistic)
electrostatic field, which in normal circumstances should be small but
detectable, but which in astromical or extreme field situations may
manifest dramatically.  However, it is NOT the amount of current that is
most important to generating the effect, it is the velocity.

Perhaps I should repost the theory?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 17:16:06 2000
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:11:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>Mitch writes:
>>***{Now we are getting somewhere. This is the kind of information a person
>>needs, in order to justify investing time and effort investigating what, on
>>the surface, seems to be a rather silly claim. Since you likened it to the
>>Great Pyramid, I assume that your pyramid model consisted of four
>>equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form a half-octagon,
>>but I need a bit more detail. What was the approximate length of one of the
>>edges? What kind of surface was it resting on during the experiment--e.g.,
>>formica, wood, glass, etc? Were the conditions in the room humid or dry?
>>Was there a source of heat nearby? (E.g., was it near a window where it
>>could be exposed to direct sunlight?) --MJ}***
>
>Hi Mitch,
>
>This is just a quick note, but the 4 triangles are not equilateral.  I
>forget what the exact angles are, but it shouldn't be hard to find out.  My
>base edge was probably between 8 to 10 inches, and the height was about a
>foot.  I left the bottom open, and the table I sat it on had like a shiney
>black, formica finish. I just set the banana on the table under pyramid.
>Evidently, there are "sweet spot" areas inside of it where the effects can
>vary, but I didn't fool with that.  The banana just barely fit in there
>horizontally at the bottom.  My pyramid was black.  It was about 4 feet or
>so from a large, open window

***{Hi Knuke. Well, I guess the key question at this point is whether the
window permitted direct sunlight to fall on the pyramid, because if, say,
the pyramid received 2 hours per day of direct sunlight, the temperature
inside it probably reached close to the boiling point of water. I say that
because I used to drive a candy-apple red pickup truck that had a
thermometer on the dash, and when I left the windows up overnight and came
out to drive it after it had sat in the sun for several hours, it wasn't
unusual for the thermometer to initially read 180, 190, or even 200 F when
I first opened the door and sat down. Since hospitals sterilize surgical
instruments by boiling, I would think that a black pyramid sitting in
direct sunlight, on a black formica table-top would do a pretty good job of
accomplishing the same thing. Thus if it received direct sunlight, it isn't
surprising that the banana didn't rot, because once every 25 hours the
thing would be sterilized by heat!

So what about it: was it in direct sunlight for part of the day, or not?

--Mitchell Jones}***

, towards the center of the room which had a
>steam radiator type heater that was off, and one of the sides of the pyramid
>was facing the magnetic North Pole.  There are detailed instructions around
>as to the proper measurements I'm sure, and I'll see if I can find them.
>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 18:31:50 2000
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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:29:37 -0400
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Hi David,
Replies below;

David Dennard wrote:

> MJ,
>
> You still don't get it yet if you think the drain in the bathtub is a
> whirlpool.  That is a tornado type vortex.

Ok, whirlpool, vortex, whatever. I said I wasn't really interested at the
moment. Whether I "get it" or not is really immaterial. If it hasn't caught my
interest, it hasn't caught my interest.

>
>
> If you have not seen the photo of a whirlpool, the only photo known to
> exist, I suggest you take a look;

Ok, says MJ, I will look........

>
>
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
>
> or on my splash page;
>
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
> And you still made no comment on ripple drive.

Ripples are waves, like sound waves. Sound waves through water can make ripples.
Whole different area than flowing water. When MJ thinks of Ripple it reminds him
of cheap wine.....hehe

> Nor has anyone.  Nor any
> comments on ripples.  Ripples will drive you wheel but any action up or down
> on the vertical axis will not find any energy.

Waves are ripples aren't they (the answer is yes)? Quite a lot of work HAS been
done on harnessing the power of waves(in the ocean) to make power. Maybe we
could talk about that and then see how you have improved on these devices?
mj

> That has been proven time
> and time again.  Tornado type vorticies, the corkscrew spiral, Chaos Theory,
> has been tested.  NO energy.
>
> What has not been tested are ripples and whirlpools.
>
> David
>
> >From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Ripples
> >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:50:12 -0400
> >
> >Hello,
> >    First, if both of you are arguing about the end (physical) or the
> >beginning
> >(chronological) of the universe I think you ought to find something more
> >down to
> >earth <grin> to argue about. You can't actually prove either without
> >complex
> >math and it is the perfect example of what I meant. With the right spin you
> >can
> >"prove" anything is just the way you want it to be. Much better just to
> >accept
> >the latest theories at face value until they are either proven correct or
> >replaced. Less painful that way.
> >In regard to below; I have been thinking about the whirlpool thing but it
> >hasn't
> >really caught my interest. Not to say it isn't valid. I don't know that.
> >The
> >link to the paper I did this weekend does work, maybe have to reload a
> >couple
> >times. nbc merged with xoom and messed things up.
> >Thought. Pump moves an amount of water from a container. It uses a known,
> >constant amount of energy to do this. With ONE water wheel you can almost
> >get
> >enough power to run pump. What if you add pelton wheel ABOVE water wheel?
> >pelton
> >wheel is struck with flow of water as it exits pump at bottom and turned,
> >converting the kinetic energy of the flow. Water THEN drops a couple inches
> >onto
> >TOP of water wheel where gravity gives kinetic energy to generate power.
> >Just a
> >thought.
> >Did you know that whirlpools in your tub drain always rotate counter
> >clockwise
> >in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere? Must
> >be
> >tied in to the earth's energy field(s)
> >MJ
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > > J
> > >
> > > P.S. Michael, still interested in your comments on ripple drive related
> >to
> > > you waterwheel.  I though I saw Fields get interested in viscosity
> >feedback.
> > >   But don't drip on the wheel, let the wheel ride the ripple.  Surfs UP!
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 19:01:44 2000
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Hi All,
   I designed a simple little free energy device. I put a paper up over
the weekend but it was having problems. I've switched my whole site over
to the geocities server now so it should load ok at the url below.
MJ
http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/simpledevice.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 20:32:17 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Find?
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:30:13 +1000
Organization: Improving
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I just came across this for those interested.

http://www.electrostatic.com/Maxwell.htm .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 11 22:50:42 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Mitch writes:
>***{Hi Knuke. Well, I guess the key question at this point is whether the
>window permitted direct sunlight to fall on the pyramid, because if, say,
>the pyramid received 2 hours per day of direct sunlight, the temperature
>inside it probably reached close to the boiling point of water. I say that
>because I used to drive a candy-apple red pickup truck that had a
>thermometer on the dash, and when I left the windows up overnight and came
>out to drive it after it had sat in the sun for several hours, it wasn't
>unusual for the thermometer to initially read 180, 190, or even 200 F when
>I first opened the door and sat down. Since hospitals sterilize surgical
>instruments by boiling, I would think that a black pyramid sitting in
>direct sunlight, on a black formica table-top would do a pretty good job of
>accomplishing the same thing. Thus if it received direct sunlight, it isn't
>surprising that the banana didn't rot, because once every 25 hours the
>thing would be sterilized by heat!
>
>So what about it: was it in direct sunlight for part of the day, or not?
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***

It is of course, possible to cook something in direct sunlight inside just
about any closed, black box, but a banana would definitely go brown, soft
and mushy in less than a few hours at the temps you mentioned, I would
think.  I could stick one in the oven right now and find out (as could you),
but I think Martha Stewart has already performed that experiment to
everyone's delight in her historic episode entitled "Wonderful Things You
Can Do With Plantains".

This banana that I used was still firm and yellow after 3 months.  The room
I was in was on the top floor of an old hotel that had an overhanging roof,
and a balcony with a heavily wooded rail (Bayerish Style).  The roof
extended out beyond the balcony.  The altitude was high (Alpine), humidity
low, ambient high temperatures ranged between 75 and 85 dF.  If the pyramid
did receive any direct sunlight, it would not have been for a very long
period of time, and it would have either been toward the very beginning or
end of the day.  I forget exactly what direction the window was facing, too.
I do remember however, that there was a song in my heart.  It was almost 20
years ago.

Your comments are good, so please pardon my wisecracks.  A list of variables
and their possible effects should of course, be compiled before any
experiment.  I'd hate to go through the time and expense of any rigorous
examination of the phenomenon only to have my scholarly report bushwacked by
something obvious.  At the rate the net is expanding and the price of
digital cameras are dropping, within about a year or so, I should not only
be able to give you a 3D GPS reading of exactly where I was in relation to
the rest of the Universe, weather conditions, and the rest, but I should
also be able to give you an actual picture of the place.  XOOM.com just
offered a digital handheld camera for $60, and a video cam for $99.

At the rate Horace and Fred are working, you might even be able to get
photos of the *actual* experiment that I did nearly 20 years ago simply by
contorting time and space. About the only thing left then to your
imagination might be the song that was in my heart, but I'm sure someone on
this list is working on getting that too, if they haven't gotten it already.
It would be worth billions in income to Sony or Ron Howard Productions if
they could just get the copywrite on that one, eh?  There may even be
military applications. BIG $$$$$!!! 8)

Dum de dum de dum,

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 00:54:57 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Eye on IP News Update
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:51:03 -0700
From: "Laura Westlake" <lwestlake patentcafe.com>
To: <ipfrontline cafezine.com>

EYE ON IP NEWS UPDATE     Mon 11SEP00 Vol. 04: No. 32

=================================================

PatentCafe's Eye On IP / IPFrontline(sm)

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Vladimir K. Zworykin was issued Patent No. 2,141,059
on the television. He and his co-workers also developed
the iconoscope, a scanning tube for the television
camera.

Source: N. Paul Friederichs of Angenehm Law Firm;
and Encyclopedia.com

==================NEWS PATENTCAFE=================

o Tuesday Nite Live Expert Chat - September 12, 2000

  Guest Expert, Carol Rehtmeyer presents:
  "TURNING YOUR INVENTOR PASSION INTO A MANUFACTURED
  AND MARKETED PRODUCT"

Carol Rehymeyer is President & CEO of Rehtmeyer Design &
Licensing, (an internationally acclaimed company for toy
and game development and manufacturing), CEO of Chat 
Corporation (a hand-held, wireless e-mail technology
company), President of "The Toy & Game Industry Foundation"
a.k.a. "TGIF"- (a high profile industry organization,
program and annual forum and trade show), and on the board
of directors for both "Toynetwork.com" and "Chatat Company".

ABOUT THIS CHAT:

Carol will discuss how to turn your ideas into manufactured
products. She'll cover the necessary steps of the process,
finances, production costs, timing, marketing, promotion and
distribution means for your product.

http://www.patentcafe.com/chat/090002.html

Chat Date: September 12, 2000 *TUESDAY NITE*
9:00 - 11:00 PM EASTERN TIME
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o PATENTCAFE ANNOUNCES IMPORTANT NEW FAQs SECTION
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PatentCafe is the first with the FAQ on the US Patent &
Trademark Office's new Electronic Business Systems.

File Patent & Trademark Applications Fast - Electronically
The USPTO's Patent electronic filing system (EFS) will be
out of Beta testing soon - the Trademark EFS is online now.

By getting your digital certificate and PC software now,
you'll be ready to begin filing applications, checking
application status, and to make online payments immediately
upon availability of the EFS systems for public use.

How do the EBS work?  How secure are they?  What hardware
is needed?  Get all the answers to the electronic filing systems -
See the PTO Online Section at the url above.

http://www.patentcafe.com/faq

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o EVENT NOTICE - USPTO Free Workshops

The US Patent and Trademark Office is holding free,
one-day educational workshops at various Patent and
Trademark Depository Libraries (PTDL). The workshops
detail the implementation of the American Inventors
Protection Act of 1999 (AIPA) and introduce the
USPTO's electronic commerce initiatives.

For More Information:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/speeches/00-46.htm

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o EVENT NOTICE - BARTA's New Business Development
  Workshops

On September 28, 2000, The Bay Area Regional Technology
Alliance (BARTA) will launch a new series of business
development workshops, focused on specific issues of interest
to early-stage, technology-based companies. The first in
this series is a workshop on Patent Issues for Internet
Companies.

For More Information http://www.barta.org.

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o WIPO Draft Report on Traditional Knowledge Open
  For Comments

The World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)
is inviting public comment on a comprehensive study,
on the intellectual property-related needs of holders
of holders of traditional knowledge (TK). The report
is based on hundreds of interviews during nine
fact-finding missions in 1998 and 1999.

Comments on the draft, available at
http://www.wipo.int/traditionalknowledge/report/ can be sent
to WIPO until October 30, 2000, after which the report will
be finalized for consideration by WIPO's 175 member states
and other interested parties.

Read the entire press release at:
http://www.wipo.org/eng/pressrel/2000/p236.htm

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o Fast Forward to Eye on IP Weekender
  Editor Profile: Murray Ansell

This week in Eye on IP Weekender, we'll visit with
Murray Ansell, licensing expert and President of
California-based ThinkUSA.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 05:35:42 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Experiment and "Big G"
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 06:34:14 -0700
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 http://www.ccsr.uiuc.edu/~alfred/Ph101/Notes.htmd/cavendish/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 05:37:49 2000
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	Tue, 12 Sep 2000 05:37:20 -0700
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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:37:16 -0400
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Eye on IP News Update]
Resent-Message-ID: <"B_dtb2.0.2I2.0EYlv" mx1>
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Gnorts,

I read the other day that the first US patent issued was for a device to
restrain wild Indians or Native Americans, depending on your cultural
reference point.  I guess things haven't changed all that much.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 06:31:19 2000
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Message-ID: <39BE2FB1.253A34AA verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:29:21 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Although, Frederick may simply point out the Newton formula in his post, there are some improvements over Cavendish Experiment, see http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-ph/0009062.

Actually they are looking for gravitation anomalies at sub millimeter distances.



Gravitational Experiment Below 1 Millimeter and Comment on 
Shielded Casimir Backgrounds for Experiments in the Micron Regime

Authors: Joshua C. Long, Allison B. Churnside, John C. Price
Comments: 8 pages, LaTex, 4 eps figures. To be submitted to the on-line
proceedings of the Ninth Marcel Grossmann Conference (Rome, 2-8 July 2000);
abbreviated version to be submitted to the printed proceedings

     We present the status of an experimental test for gravitational strength
     forces below 1 mm. Our experiment uses small 1 kilohertz oscillators as
     test masses, with a stiff counducting shield between them to suppress
     backgrounds. At the present sensitivity of approximately 1000 times
     gravitational strength, we see no evidence for new forces with interaction
     ranges between 75 microns and 1 mm. While the Casimir background is
     not expected to be significant at this range, an extension of the shielding
     technique we employ may be useful for reducing this background in
     experiments below a few microns. We describe a possible
     implementation. 

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
>  http://www.ccsr.uiuc.edu/~alfred/Ph101/Notes.htmd/cavendish/
> 

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 08:27:46 2000
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Message-Id: <200009121525.LAA01060 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Clarke Comment on CF -- Gene on Zoh Show
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:25:10 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

Gene Mallove will be on the Zoh Show today 1:30 pm to 2:00 pm eastern 
time  live (10-11 station Liberty Network  syndicate) commenting about 
this Clarke opinion and reviewing CF of past decade.

Gene
---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science
/ne
wsid_919000/919953.stm
 
            www.bbc.co.uk
                  Monday, 11 September, 2000, 11:21 GMT 12:21 UK 
                  Arthur C Clarke demands
                  cold fusion rethink

                  By BBC New Online's Jonathan Amos

                  The author and visionary Sir Arthur C Clarke says
                  society has made a huge mistake in rejecting out of
                  hand the idea that cold fusion may be possible. 

                  And he mocked editors and journalists at the British
                  Association's Festival of Science for not giving the
                  technology serious consideration. 

                  He said the age of fossil fuels was coming to an end
                  and society needed to find new sources of energy. Cold
                  fusion or other "anomalous sources of energy" might
                  just turn out to be the answer, he said. 

                  Cold fusion first hit the headlines in 1989 when
                  researchers Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons
                  suggested it was possible to generate heat through the
                  fusion of atoms at normal temperatures. 

                  But when leading scientists failed to reproduce their
                  results and Fleishmann and Pons retracted some of
                  their early claims, cold fusion was dismissed as
                  nonsense. 

                  Crooks and cranks

                  However, the research has gone on, with little funding
                  and largely underground, and Sir Arthur said the results
                  coming out of some labs demanded attention. 

                  "Over the last decade there have been literally
                  hundreds of reports from all over the world from highly
                  qualified people and distinguished institutions of
                  anomalous sources of energy," he said in a recorded
                  video address to the festival. 

                  "They may or may not be cold fusion and in some
                  cases have nothing to do with nuclear power. 

                  "Although there are lots of crooks, cranks and cowboys
                  in this field, I believe there is now enough published
                  evidence to prove that something strange is going on." 

                  Carbon Age

                  He urged journalists to do serious investigation so that
                  they could "start to see the future". 

                  Sir Arthur also said he believed we were entering the
                  Carbon Age. He prophesised that the discovery of
                  molecules like C60 - the soccer ball-shaped cage of
                  carbon atoms - would lead to extraordinary new
                  materials. 

                  "We will soon have materials a hundred times stronger
                  than any metal and perhaps weighing no more than
                  ordinary plastics," he said." 

                  "Their impact on every aspect of life will be enormous:
                  buildings that are kilometres high, and land, sea and
                  air vehicles that are only a fraction of their present
                  weight." 
 





 


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>From sir with love:

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	<SPAN CLASS="date">Monday, 11 September, 2000, 11:21 GMT 12:21 UK
</SPAN>
	<DIV CLASS="headlinestory"><B>Arthur C Clarke demands cold fusion rethink</B><BR></DIV>
	<FONT FACE="sans-serif" SIZE="2">
	
	
		
		<DIV CLASS="inlineimage">
		<IMG alt="BBC" vspace="0" border=0 width="300" height="125" src="/olmedia/910000/images/_911892_amos_reporter_300.jpg"><BR CLEAR="all">
		
		</DIV>
		
	
	



	
	
		
	





	<DIV CLASS="bodytext"><B>By BBC New Online's Jonathan Amos</B><P>The author and visionary Sir Arthur C Clarke says society has made a huge mistake in rejecting out of hand the idea that cold fusion may be possible.
<P>
And he mocked editors and journalists at the British Association's Festival of Science for not giving the technology serious consideration.
<P>
He said the age of fossil fuels was coming to an end and society needed to find new sources of energy.  Cold fusion or other "anomalous sources of energy" might just turn out to be the answer, he said.
<P>
Cold fusion first hit the headlines in 1989 when researchers Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons suggested it was possible to generate heat through the fusion of atoms at normal temperatures.
<P>
But when leading scientists failed to reproduce their results and Fleishmann and Pons retracted some of their early claims, cold fusion was dismissed as nonsense.
<P><B>Crooks and cranks</B><P>
However, the research has gone on, with little funding and largely underground, and Sir Arthur said the results coming out of some labs demanded attention.
<P>
"Over the last decade there have been literally hundreds of reports from all over the world from highly qualified people and distinguished institutions of anomalous sources of energy," he said in a recorded video address to the festival.  
<P>
"They may or may not be cold fusion and in some cases have nothing to do with nuclear power.  
<P>
"Although there are lots of crooks, cranks and cowboys in this field, I believe there is now enough published evidence to prove that something strange is going on."  
<P><B>Carbon Age</B><P>
He urged journalists to do serious investigation so that they could "start to see the future".
<P>
Sir Arthur also said he believed we were entering the Carbon Age.  He prophesised that the discovery of molecules like C60 - the soccer ball-shaped cage of carbon atoms - would lead to extraordinary new materials.
<P>
"We will soon have materials a hundred times stronger than any metal and perhaps weighing no more than ordinary plastics," he said.
<P>
"Their impact on every aspect of life will be enormous: buildings that are kilometres high, and land, sea and air vehicles that are only a fraction of their present weight."
<P>

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<DIV CLASS="rhslist"><DIV CLASS="rhshead"><B>See also:</B><BR><IMG SRC="/furniture/grey_pixel.gif" WIDTH=170 VSPACE="2" HEIGHT=1 ALT=""><BR></DIV>
<DIV CLASS="aitem"><SPAN CLASS="seealsodate">12 Oct 99&nbsp;|&nbsp;Sheffield 99</SPAN><BR>
	<A HREF="/hi/english/sci/tech/specials/sheffield_99/newsid_444000/444093.stm" CLASS="heavy">The best of British science</A>
	</DIV>
<DIV CLASS="aitem"><SPAN CLASS="seealsodate">22 Feb 00&nbsp;|&nbsp;Washington 2000</SPAN><BR>
	<A HREF="/hi/english/sci/tech/specials/washington_2000/newsid_645000/645041.stm" CLASS="heavy">Into a new millennium of science</A>
	</DIV>
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<DIV CLASS="rhshead"><B>Internet links:</B><BR><IMG SRC="/furniture/grey_pixel.gif" WIDTH=170 VSPACE="2" HEIGHT=1 ALT=""><BR></DIV>
<DIV CLASS="aitem"><A href="http://www.britassoc.org.uk/creatingsparks/" CLASS="heavy">Creating Sparks - BA Science Festival</A></DIV>
<SPAN CLASS="disclaimer"><BR>The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites</SPAN><BR>
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<DIV CLASS="rhslist">
	<DIV CLASS="rhshead"><B>Other top Festival of science stories:</B><BR><IMG SRC="/sport/furniture/grey_pixel.gif" WIDTH=170 VSPACE="2" HEIGHT=1 ALT=""><BR></DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_920000/920305.stm" CLASS="heavy">The original 'rock music'</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_921000/921748.stm" CLASS="heavy">Humans 'face extinction'</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_920000/920778.stm" CLASS="heavy">Australian mammal is medical star</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_920000/920751.stm" CLASS="heavy">Nano-nose for asthma watch</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_920000/920218.stm" CLASS="heavy">Snails battle senility</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_919000/919953.stm" CLASS="heavy">Arthur C Clarke demands cold fusion rethink</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_919000/919539.stm" CLASS="heavy">Herbal medicines undergo UK trials</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
	<DIV CLASS="aitem">
		<A HREF="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_919000/919621.stm" CLASS="heavy">Grotesque faces linked to eye disease</A>
		
	</DIV>
	
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<DIV CLASS="promotextbold">Links to top Festival of science stories are at the foot of the page.
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			GM apples could fight tooth decay
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			Brain control improves the music
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		<OPTION value="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_913000/913463.stm">
			Cyanide targets cancer
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		<OPTION value="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_913000/913273.stm">
			'Gender-bender' fish problem widens
		</OPTION>
	

	
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			UK tissue engineering centre to get �10m
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		<OPTION value="/hi/english/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/festival_of_science/newsid_912000/912827.stm">
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			Sparking interest in science
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			The BA festival factfile
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 09:57:49 2000
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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:53:33 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Arthur Clarke demands cold fusion rethink
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Bravo Uncle Arthur!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 14:42:51 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:40:15 CDT
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I wonder if anyone could explain to me how Mr. Dennard gets from the proof 
of a "flat space universe" to the death of Thermodynamics?

Not that is to say that I believe the second law is applicable in any but 
the most carefully controlled and understood experiments.

Merlyn
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I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. When 
universe is flat, arrow of time is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)

hamdi ucar


Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> I wonder if anyone could explain to me how Mr. Dennard gets from the proof
> of a "flat space universe" to the death of Thermodynamics?
> 
> Not that is to say that I believe the second law is applicable in any but
> the most carefully controlled and understood experiments.
> 
> Merlyn
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

-- 
- It's a feature, not a bug!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 15:53:19 2000
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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:46:38 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Hey John,

I've been trying to contact you, but I keep getting returns from your
mailbox -> do you have an address that I can contact you on?

Joe

p.s. I appologise for forwarding this to the list, but I've tried
direct and I can't get the message through.
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 16:53:38 2000
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Message-ID: <39BEBF8F.6CFA2A51 austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:

I though I saw Fields get interested in viscosity
feedback.

---
Wrong again ...

I'm only interested in gain.

If you can show me how feedback will result in more output power from a
system than total power put into it from an infinite source, without
depleting the source, then I might be interested in listening to you.

Otherwise, fuck off.  
---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 17:24:16 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> What has not been tested are ripples and whirlpools.
>

---

Ripples too?

Geez, I thought that it was only whirlpools which had not yet been
tested.

Now we have to wait for you to approve the testing (from afar) of
ripples.

Let's hear something about about phase and group velocity and
information exchange if you're serious.

Hint: c = sqrt(e/m)

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 18:42:47 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:34:17 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:33:46 +0300:

>
>I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. When
 universe is flat, arrow of time is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)
[snip]
If places exist in a flat universe where heat energy is converted into
matter then the entropy of the universe as a whole can be zero, while
increasing in the part where we live (and make our "laws").


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 12 19:09:40 2000
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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:06:43 PDT
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But we must look at the whole picture to see.  As I have stated, "scientists 
can't see the forest for the trees for the fungus on the backside of a 
liverwort.

On must use Guya, the whole systems approach, ang get past Maya, the surface 
appearance, the mirage, the illusion.

It is simple, just a paradigm shift, knowing what energy really is and where 
it comes from.  Gravity is "The Origin of Energy".

Most simple see in the action of a hot air balloon.  Heat is NOT thrusting 
the balloon up.  Gravity is pulling the more dense atmosphere beneath the 
less dense balloon, thus pushing the hot air balloon up.  Same thing happens 
in evaporation.  Same thing with bubbles, that was where the energy reading 
came in cold fusion tests.

But any action on the vertical axis cannot be tapped, just like a tornado 
type vortex cannot be tapped.

But on the horizontal, ripples and whirlpools.

We are just about there.

David Dennard
TOE
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:34:17 +1000
>
>In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:33:46 +0300:
>
> >
> >I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the 
>matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is 
>expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is 
>collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. When universe is flat, arrow of time 
>is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)
>[snip]
>If places exist in a flat universe where heat energy is converted into
>matter then the entropy of the universe as a whole can be zero, while
>increasing in the part where we live (and make our "laws").
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 02:49:40 2000
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Hi Robin,

I was joking.

Arrow of time is an unphysical concept I thing.  Contrary to common wisdom, i visualize dimensions (including time) as property of the matter. Fundamental is existence and dynamic of the matter, not the dimensions. Dimensions 'occurs' by this dynamic.

So changing direction of the time does not make sense to me.

I thought that the idea of dimensions are accepted as fundamental and  form the framework the  universe rose from we perceive things as static. I think there is nothing static. When things appears static, dimensions become  key concepts and fundamental so
 everything need to placed (as geometric objects) in the continuum. This is a poor visualization of the reality. Contrary, I think there is nothing static as a part of the physical reality. 

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:33:46 +0300:
> 
> >
> >I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. Wh
en universe is flat, arrow of time is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)
> [snip]
> If places exist in a flat universe where heat energy is converted into
> matter then the entropy of the universe as a whole can be zero, while
> increasing in the part where we live (and make our "laws").

Sure. Entropy is a powerful concept and a fundamental tool of the nature for the unordered matter self organize. But it is merely a mathematical - statistical requirement, not a physical law. It appears as a law as it is naturally occurring, but it not pr
event someone reorder the matter by a intelligent process, thus decreasing the entropy, IMO.



> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

--
The secret to life is enjoying the passage of time - James Taylor

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 03:34:08 2000
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0009139

Hi Robin and Vo,

This paper comes just in time on the comment of Robin on arrow of time. Author share the same opinion.

In my turn, arrow of time is superfluous concept, as (I think) dimensions are not fundamentals of physical reality. (see my previous posting) I also would assert that arrow of time would not help to better understand the nature.

Regards,

hamdi ucar



From: L. S. Schulman <schulman clarkson.edu>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:25:59 GMT   (86kb)

A compromised arrow of time

Authors: L. S. Schulman
Comments: For the proceedings of the conference, Equations aux Derivees
Partielles et Physique Mathematique, in honor of J. Vaillant, Paris, June 2000. B.
Gaveau et al., editors
Subj-class: Statistical Mechanics

     The second law of thermodynamics - the usual statement of the arrow of
     time - has been called the most fundamental law of physics. It is thus
     difficult to conceive that a single dynamical system could contain
     subsystems, in significant mutual contact, possessing opposite
     thermodynamic arrows of time. By examining cosmological justification for
     the usual arrow it is found that a consistent way to establish such
     justification is by giving symmetric boundary conditions at two
     (cosmologically remote) times and seeking directional behavior in
     between. Once this has been demonstrated, it is seen that entropy
     increase can be reversed and that the usual arrow is less totalitarian than
     previously believed. In the same vein, other boundary conditions,
     modeling shorter periods in the evolution of the cosmos, can be found that
     allow the simultaneous existence of two thermodynamic arrows,
     notwithstanding moderate interaction between the systems possessing
     those arrows. Physical consequences of the existence and detection of
     opposite-arrow regions are also considered.

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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0009036

Regards, hamdi ucar


From: Bernhard Haisch <haisch flare.stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:29:40 GMT   (27kb)

Inertial mass and the quantum vacuum fields

Authors: Bernard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda, York Dobyns
Comments: Annalen der Physik, in press

     Even when the Higgs particle is finally detected, it will continue to be a
     legitimate question to ask whether the inertia of matter as a reaction force
     opposing acceleration is an intrinsic or extrinsic property of matter.
     General relativity specifies which geodesic path a free particle will follow,
     but geometrodynamics has no mechanism for generating a reaction force
     for deviation from geodesic motion. We discuss a different approach
     involving the electromagnetic zero-point field (ZPF) of the quantum
     vacuum. It has been found that certain asymmetries arise in the ZPF as
     perceived from an accelerating reference frame. In such a frame the
     Poynting vector and momentum flux of the ZPF become non-zero.
     Scattering of this quantum radiation by the quarks and electrons in matter
     can result in an acceleration-dependent reaction force. Both the ordinary
     and the relativistic forms of Newton's second law, the equation of motion,
     can be derived from the electrodynamics of such ZPF-particle interactions.
     Conjectural arguments are given why this interaction should take place in a
     resonance at the Compton frequency, and how this could simultaneously
     provide a physical basis for the de Broglie wavelength of a moving
     particle. This affords a suggestive perspective on a deep connection
     between electrodynamics, the origin of inertia and the quantum wave
     nature of matter.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 04:48:45 2000
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I apologize to the group for the unwarranted use of profanity.

(Too much wine, not enough restraint.)

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 06:14:47 2000
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According to General Relativity a clock slows down during acceleration:

T' = T (1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 * v^2/r

Since acceleration v^2/r of a rotating system  at constant angular velocity
is constant, a  mini-transmitter placed in an ultra-centrifuge should put out a 
measurable lower frequency signal than it's signal when it is at rest.   :-)

Should be able to see the frequency shift with a good receiver.

Regards,   Frederick


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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: Query: Radiation through shield
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:25:25 +0700
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Hi Vorts:

I've got some kind of energy from a 2100vdc arc
 that punches through a shield made of:
 1 layer household aluminium foil
 1 layer 0.5mm polyester film housing
 1 fiberglass PCB board (sparsely clad - no ground plane)
 spaced over 30 mm with air at 80% humidity
 
 into a Geiger Mueller at 350v potential.
 
I reckon it's not electrons, as the electron
 flow is in the other direction (away from the
 Geiger Mueller tube).

any stray particles should be stopped by this, 
 so I am guessing it is EM in nature.

I didn't think x-rays would arise at this voltage,
 nor, if they did, would I surmise them to trigger
 the Geiger Mueller.

I suppose it could be RF, but I don't see how,
 as the circuit is battery-powered
 as well as shielded by the foil, and the power
 output of the arc is ~50 micro-amps.

The foil shield is unattached to the circuit,
 and spaced far enough to avoid capacitive coupling.

After a few seconds of arcing, I seem to get
 a higher background count (2 to 3x) as well,
 but I need to verify this as it could
 be my imagination.


Any ideas on what I've got here and how I can
 nail it down ?

regards,
Paul E. Anderson



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Subject: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
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Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00

Subject: Your neat idea
    Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:56:13 -0400
   From:  William B Clarke <wbclarke mcmaster.ca>
 Organization:  McMaster University
       To:   rmforall earthlink.net

Dear Dr. Murray,

That is an extraordinarily neat idea and you should pursue it
as fast as you can. I don't know very much about the actual
details of the Finnigan mass spectrometer analysis except that it
was reliably done by two of Brian Oliver's colleagues at
PNNL. You should send an e-mail to Brian Oliver and he will
contact his friends S. Bos and M. Goheen for details. My guess
is that they collected peak height data for masses 1 to about 50
so 15N should show up at masses 15, 29, and 30 as small
peaks. 17O and 18O will show up at masses 17, not at 18
because of interference by H216O, 34, 35 and 36.
If as you say, 7D -> 14N, and 8D -> 16O, then why is
D+D->4He apparently absent or so low?  Why not 3D->6Li , or
4D->8Be, or 5D->10B, or 6D->12C ?.  14N or 16O
production would probably be much easier to detect via N and O
isotope anomalies relative to atmospheric N and O as you say
compared to similar measurements on Li, B, or C because of
the expected background contamination of these elements.
8Be is unstable and decays almost instantaneously to 2 alpha
particles.

Sincerely,   Brian Clarke
***************************************************

Stanley J. Bos  stanley.bos pnl.gov
Science/Engrng Assc  Advanced Inorganic Analysis
509-373-9675  fax 509-373-9675

Milton W. Goheen   milt.goheen pnl.gov
Staff Scientist  Advanced Inorganic Analysis
509-376-3358   fax 509-373-9675
****************************************************

Murray: Clarke & McKubre: evidence for T & He-3 from
D in Pd-black  9.12.00

Sept 12 2000   Hello Brian Clarke and other researchers,

Thank you for calling at 4 PM on my cell phone.
It wasn't a good time for me to engage in detailed talk, and
it costs me far less, only $ 3/hr, for me to call you back.  I'm
available Sundays, 9 AM to 10 PM, Mondays through Fridays,
9 AM to 11 AM and 9 PM- 10 PM, Saturdays, 8 PM-10PM.

Do you have the MS raw data for the D2O interior gas, or can one
of the others on the team either examine it carefully, or send me a
copy-- I could share it with Scott Little of Earthtech, Inc. in Austin,
Texas, a very experienced and fair-minded experimentalist in the
cold fusion field.  I am especially motivated to see if there are any
isotopic anomalies for N-15, O-17, and O-18 and their compounds,
since that might start to explain the 64 +-6 MJ excess energy recorded
by McKubre et al at SRI.      little earthtech.org

It seems to me necessary to rule out the simplest possibility:
that the major available feed stock, D, and the most prominent
residuals, N and O, are linked by the simplest reaction:

7D >> N-14
8D >> O-16

Since there is now compelling evidence for 2D >> T + p , then the
door of existence for low temperature nuclear reactions has been
pried open, in the realm of micron-scale Pd particles and in probable
active micro-regions in many metals.  Simultaneously, theorists and
experimentalists have been excited about finding complex new
microstructure in space-time itself, which must have vast and subtle
implications for the possibilities of wonderful quantum-mechanical,
non-local, correlated, entangled, coherent , stimulated emission
phenomena in micron-scale crystals.

Someone once said, "Quantum mechanics: the dreams that
stuff is made of..."  So, maybe as in Scott and Talbot Chubb's
deuterium band state theory of cold fusion, the reactions can happen
without the production of radiation or energetically moving products.
As in the field of superconductivity at deg K ~ 100, the phenomena
may long  elude mathematical modelling.

Since D is loosely bound, if there is an amplified gravitational
attraction, then in a crystal matrix of Pd atoms, the single D
may become polarized in certain locations, with the p ends
far apart, and the n ends closer, so that the reaction of
D with D will be promoted.  In for a penny, In for a pound --
if T is produced, who are we at this point to be sure that
N or O are not even more easily formed?  So, let's be eager
to check the available evidence, just in case...

In fact, I wonder if the anomaly about the decay of T into He-3
indicates that the decay constant of T has been shifted,
due to new-fangled effects in the Pd crystal domains.

Or if the T is to some degree in a some metastable slightly
excited state, a little above its normal ground state.

Or another possibility is that the T is continuing to be formed
as long as D is exposed to metal surfaces.

This is really exciting.  Us ordinary blokes are suddenly at a
cusp in science, like Roetgen noticing the silent shining
of a fluorescent screen in his darkened lab and Becquerel
puzzling over fogged photographic plates a century ago,
or Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1965 failing to
eliminate an annoying background hiss in their antenna system.

I worked out that 18.8 atm, 0.6 cc, 300 deg K, gives 4.6 X10E-4 moles
of interior gas, from the welded hollow Pd electrode, filled with
Pd-black, and electrolyzed in D2O at SRI for three months,
producing 64 +-6  MJ excess energy.

That works out to 2.08 X10E20 atoms O and 3.6 X10E18 atoms N.

The  change in masses from, respectively, 8 D and 7 D, is
0.1179  and 0.0956 amu per atom,
so since E = 1.49 X10E-10 J/amu,
we get 1.76 X10E-11 and 1.4 XE10-11 J/atom, thus

3,700  and 50 MJ  .

The N energy is about right for what McKubre found,
but the O is about 60 times too much-- but if there are a number
of additional dimensions available at a scale of less than 10 microns or

so, then quite a lot of energy could be radiated away into them, if the
behavior of gravity is shifted to an inverse R to the fourth power, as
predicted in very attractive theories [see Scientific American, August,
2000], and if this strongly shifts the behavior of the neutrons in the D

inside crystal grains of size smaller than ~10 microns.

Do you have the MS data on the electrode (D2O) interior gas, that could
show whether there are isotopic anomalies for the N or the O, since
usually we expect

N-15  0.366(9) %

O-17   0.038(3) %

O-18   0.200(12) %?

where the (n) is the uncertainty in the last digits?

I am grateful to W. Brian Clarke for the unexpected gift of his two
papers, sent 8.31.00, which came 9.8.00.

"Search for He-3 and He-4 in Arata-style palladium cathodes"
Part I: a negative result, by Clarke only,
15 pages, 2 tables, 3 figures.
Part II: evidence for tritium production,
41 pages, 6, tables, 9 figures.
Submitted to  Fusion Technology,
W.Brian Clarke, Prof. Emeritus, Dept. Physics & Astronomy, Hamilton,
Ontario L8S 4K1  Canada  905-525-9140 Ext. 24454
fax 905-528-4339   wbclarke mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca
"Search for H-3, He-3 and He-4 in D2-loaded titanium,"
with R.M. Clarke, Fusion Tech., 21, 170 (1992).

Brian M. Oliver, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, POB 999,
Richland, Washington 99302   509-376-9228   Brian.Oliver pnl.gov

Michael C. H. McKubre, SRI International, Menlo Park, California 94025
SRI info 650-859-4771   mike.mckubre qm.sri.com

Francis L. Tanzella   fran_tanzella qm.sri.com

Paulo Tripodi   paulo.tripodi qm.sri.com

Since I facilitated a long, detailed, exhaustive email debate on
Vortex-L eskimo.com, searchable archive at
http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/   ,
in Dec 1998 between Kirk Shanahan  kirk.shanahan srs.gov
and Mike Carrell mikec snip.net  on the
He and energy production claims by Y. Arata and  Y.-C. Zhang
of Osaka U. in Japan,  it was satisfying to me as a
pragmatic layman skeptic to find detailed results:  Clarke analyzed 9
~4 mg samples of Pd-Black from 3 hollow Pd cathodes, claimed by
Arata and Zhang to produce  in D2O huge excess energy
(in one, ~ 70 MJ (~20 KJ/hr for 3500 hrs)), and found He-3 at least
10E9 less and He-4 at least 10E6 less than their values.  Clarke also
measured 3 samples from an Arata cathode run in H2O.

"Variable concentrations are found for He-3 trapped in some samples
of Al and Pd-black.  These anomalous amounts are due to sporadic
contamination by man-made tritium or to some other unknown
mechanism.  Some samples appear to contain traces of He-4 of
atmospheric origin."

The results are interestingly spotty: one H2O run 4.89 mg sample has
He-3 (366 +-17)  X10E9 atoms/mg, while another has
He-4 (1.1 +-0.5)  X10E9.

The nine D20 run samples had two high He-3 values, (77 +-16) and
1096 +-21) X10E3 atoms/mg, and four notable He-4 values, from
(1.1 +-0.5) to (6.6 +-1.0) X10E9 atoms/mg.

Clarke found with five ~5 mg Al foils similar He-3 values, from
(3.0+-2.4) to (45.1+-4.8) X10E3,
and  He-4 values, from (0.39 +-0.03)  to (2.06 +-0.05)
 X10E9 atoms/mg  .

"Mamyrin et al (16) have found that He-3 is distributed in "patchy"
fashion in a large number of metals (including Al and Pd) and other
materials, whereas He-4 is fairly evenly distributed.  These authors
gave detailed results (in a diagram) only for nickel foil in which they
found He-3 concentrations of 7 X10E3 to 2 X10E6 atoms/mg in
0.55 g pieces, with large variations seen even in adjacent pieces.
It will be noted that these values are quite similar to those found in
this work for the Al foil and Pd-black specimens."
B.A. Mamyrin, L.V. Khabarin, and V.S. Yudenich, "Anomalously
high isotope ratio He-3/He-4 in technical-grade metals and
semiconductors," English translation in Sov. Phys. Dokl, 23, 581 (1978).

These data allow the vision  that He-3 and He-4 are nuclear reaction
products in small hot-spots, about one per 5 mg, isolated pure crystal
domains, exposed to D2 on the surface or permeable to D2 in the volume,
with the reactions limited by exhaustion of D2 supply or changes in the
hot spot crystal by heat effects, radiation damage, and build-up of
enough T, He-3 or He-4 or other nuclear products to disrupt the spot.
Each hot spot produces a unique nuclear product.  If  T is produced, it
will decay with half-life 12.77 years to He-3 + e- .   Surface reactions

allow access to D2, and escape of gas products.  H permeable metals
like Pd, Ti, and Ni allow bulk absorption of D and release of H and T,
while retaining He.  Pressure will strongly affect crystal properties
and nuclear reaction rates.

Part II compels us to gain more confidence in this evolving vision.

Happily,  Rich Murray  Room For All  rmforall earthlink.net
1943 Otowi Drive  Santa Fe  NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cell
*****************************************************

http://www.angelfire.com/va/schubb/angel1.html#Introduction

Cold Fusion: Scientific Delusion or Miracle?   1999
Scott R. Chubb and Talbot A. Chubb
Oakton International Corporation, 9822 Pebble Weigh Ct., Burke Va 22015
202-767-5270   chubb ccf.nrl.navy.mil

Science is based on rational thought. It requires a foundation
(or worldview) that is anchored in experience and the logical rules
that experience forces upon us. A scientific miracle occurs when a
significant change is required in our worldview in order to
understand a particular effect. Significant evidence (1) has been
accumulating since 1989 that the anomalously large amounts of
heat observed by Pons and Fleischmann are the result of a scientific
miracle: a new form of low temperature, radiationless,
nuclear reaction. In particular, at the 1996 World Cold Fusion
Conference, held in Japan, last October, important, independent
evidence was presented that the heat that is found in similar
experiments occurs from a common, nuclear reaction, involving a
low-energy by-product, through a radiationless form of
heavy-hydrogen (deuterium D) fusion. These findings, which were
presented by different groups from the University of Rome and
Osaka University (2), are in agreement with (and confirm) earlier
results obtained at the Naval Air Warfare Center (3). The nuclear
product occurs in the form of residual low-energy 4He that is
found in electrolytic, heavy- water experiments at levels and in
locations that cannot be explained by the normal laws of physics
and chemistry unless the 4He is the result of low-energy,
radiationless nuclear reactions. Additional evidence, obtained
during the last seven years, indicates that the reaction is triggered
through coherent effects that are peculiar to a low temperature,
solid state physics environment, in which D attempts to bond to a
periodically ordered, palladium-deuteride lattice. These results
not only were unanticipated but simply must be viewed as being
impossible when it is assumed that they result from
conventional hot fusion. However, the worldview associated
with hot fusion involves point-particle collisions in free space. In the

particular situation that is involved, which applies to low temperature
solids, many (as opposed to two) particles, interacting with
each other and with the solid, exchange momenta with each other
in a manner that simply can not be understood within the
framework of this particular worldview. For this reason an
incorrect worldview, based on hot fusion, which appears to have
provided the overwhelming basis (4) for not believing in Cold Fusion,
despite the physical evidence in support of its existence, has
been responsible for the non-acceptance of Cold Fusion.
In this homepage, we will provide an overview of the evolving
experimental situation and background material concerning the
behavior of D in transition metal systems that further clarifies why
Cold Fusion probably, logically, should be viewed as a scientific
miracle.

1  S. R. Chubb, "More on Schwinger's Views on Cold Fusion,"
Physics Today 49, 15 (1996).

2  Y. Arata and Y. C. Zhang, Proc Sixth International Conf on
Cold Fusion, (New Hydrogen Energy Program, Tokyo, to
appear).
P. L. Cignini et al, ibid.
M. Miles et al., ibid.

3  B. F. Bush, J. J. Lagowski, M. H. Miles, G. S. Ostrom,
J. Electroanal. Chem. 304, 271 (1991).
M. H. Miles and B. F. Bush, Fusion Tech 25, 478 (1994).

4  D. Lindley, "The Embarassment of Cold Fusion,"
NATURE, 344, 376 (1989).
********************************************************

http://www.aps.org/meet/MAR00/baps/abs/S1110.html#SC32.001

[C32.001] Theoretical Basis for Anomalous Heat and ^4He in
Deuterium-Metal Systems
Scott Chubb, Talbot Chubb  chubb ccsalpha3.nrl.navy.mil
(Research Systems Inc., 5023 N. 38 St., Arlington, VA 22207)

Because electromagnetic (E.M.) forces have infinite range,
reactions exist in which the degrees of freedom associated with
nuclear- and atomic- scales are coupled. Although such
non-separable reactions are possible in conventional D+D fusion, they
rarely occur because the relevant E.M.-induced reaction
(D+D\rightarrow ^4He) violates the rules of energy-momentum
conservation (EMC) at-a-point, except when a high momentum
(HM) gamma ray is emitted. When D^+ and ^4He^+^+
occupy ion band states with low concentration, however, different
forms of E.M. coupling become possible in which EMC is
violated locally but conserved globally and D+D\rightarrow ^4He
reactions occur without HM particles(http:
//www.aps.org/meet/CENT99/BAPS/abs/S9500.html).
Using a generalized KKR-Multiple-Scattering theory, we have
formulated Generalized Kadanoff-Baym Equations
( D.C. Langreth and J.W. Wilkins, Phys. Rev. B 6), 3189 (1972). that
describe the associated non-local heat and ^4He release from the
resulting coupling between nuclear interactions, D^+ and
^4He^+^+ ion band states, and electrons.

[C32.006] A Requirement for Radiationless Deuteron Fusion
Talbot Chubb, Scott Chubb (Research Systems Inc., 5023 N. 38 St.,
Arlington, VA 22207)

Referring to the Fleischmann-Pons effect in the deuterium-palladium
system, McKubre says: "The evidence in my view for the
appearance of an anomalous unaccounted excess heat in the
deuterium-palladium system is essentially overwhelming. There is
something there. It's larger by more than 1 order of magnitude, in
some cases by more than 2 orders of magnitude, than the sum
total of all possible chemical reactions."(M. McKubre,
"Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium",
Presentation at American Chemical Society Western Regional Meeting,
Ontario, CA, 8 October 1999.) The 2-electron wave
function for the helium atom ground state can be written
\Psi = \phi (r) g(r_12), where \phi (r) is a radial symmetric function
and g(r_12) has a cusp at r_12 = 0.
A requirement for radiationless fusion,
consistent with non-separable nuclear/electromagnetic
interactions (S.R. and T.A.Chubb, talk presented this session.),
is that the 2-deuteron wave function is of the form \Psi = \phi (r)
g(r_12), where \phi(r) and g(r_12) are Bloch functions, and g(r_12),
on length-scales associated with atomic processes, has
N_cell cusps, with N_cell > \sim 10^4.
******************************************************

http://gravity.phys.psu.edu/mog/mog15/node12.html

http://enews.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/multi-d-universe.html

http://www.ParticleAdventure.org/news/dims.html

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1998/split/pnu381-1.htm

http://www.newscientist.co.uk/ns/981024/fifth.html
******************************************************







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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:01:18 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Query: Radiation through shield
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At 10:25 PM 9/13/0, xplorer wrote:

>
>Any ideas on what I've got here and how I can
> nail it down ?

High frequency arcs have electrodynamics of their own which can produce
much higher energy particles than expected from the voltage applied.

AS for RF coupling, I would suggest more layers of foil.  My experience
with foil shielding is that two layers is that one layer is insufficient
when two or three will work.   Assuming you have a battery powered GM
counter, you could also wrap the counter itself, assuming it has audio
output.  It is important to have no holes in the wrapping.  As a control to
eliminate the hypothesis the foil shilding is absorbing particles, you
could place a small panel of varying layers of foil between the arc and
counter in your present set-up.  If a small panel of 2 layers of foil
provides no change in count, yet covers up all stright-line paths to the
counter from the arc, while multiple wraps of foil does suppress the count,
then the counts must be electromagnetic in nature, not from particles.

Another approach is to stick a heavy shield between the counter and arcs,
like a sheet of lead or steel, just big enough to cover up the
straight-line paths to the counter.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:49:03 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Scientists at CERN may have detected as many as six of the
elusive mass particles:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/10/stifgneur01001.html

Terry

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Rotating Transmitter?
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At 7:11 AM 9/13/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>According to General Relativity a clock slows down during acceleration:
>
>T' = T (1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 * v^2/r
>
>Since acceleration v^2/r of a rotating system  at constant angular velocity
>is constant, a  mini-transmitter placed in an ultra-centrifuge should put
>out a
>measurable lower frequency signal than it's signal when it is at rest.   :-)
>
>Should be able to see the frequency shift with a good receiver.
>
>Regards,   Frederick


Interesting idea.  Light transmitter might provide some additional info.  A
cheap light pen solid state laser encapsulated in epoxy might work.

Could place a laser on rotating arm with light beam aimed directed inward
at right angle prism mounted over axis of spin.  Could then do interference
with reference beam from idenitical laser at rest.  Another variation would
be doing interferrometry on beams from lasers mounted at differing radii on
spinning arm.

This might provide further tests of relativity, as well as measure the
affect of acceleration on atomic structure, i.e. the affect of the ZPF on
accelerating atoms.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 10:25 PM 9/13/00 +0700, xplorer wrote:

I've got some kind of energy from a 2100vdc arc
>  that punches through a shield made of:
>  1 layer household aluminium foil
>  1 layer 0.5mm polyester film housing
>  1 fiberglass PCB board (sparsely clad - no ground plane)
>  spaced over 30 mm with air at 80% humidity
>
>  into a Geiger Mueller at 350v potential.

In my experience it's almost impossible to adequately shield a detector 
system like your GM tube from EM noise created by arcs....even real weak 
ones.  I'd bet it's a certainty that you still have EM interference causing 
your elevated GM counts.

If you want to improve the shielding, try enclosing the arc device (with 
its batteries) inside of a steel box.  It definitely won't be adequate to 
erect a flat shield between the two devices, one or the other must be fully 
enclosed.  Further, the ferromagnetic (steel) box provides considerably 
better shielding that just an electrically conductive box (aluminum).

I agree that you won't be seeing any detectable x-rays from your 2100 volt 
arc.  Even if you did make some 2 keV x-rays, they wouldn't get thru the GM 
tube's window.  However, if you want to be damned sure you're not detecting 
real x-rays, simple insert a thick non-conducting (so it won't affect the 
EM noise) shield plate between the arc and the GM tube.  For example, a 
1/4" thick glass plate would be wonderful shielding for 2keV x-rays.  Since 
x-rays go in straight lines, it only needs to be large enuf to provide a 
complete shadowing of the GM tube.

I predict that such a thick plate will have essentially zero effect on the 
counts you're seeing...which will prove that they're not real x-rays.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 12:35:21 2000
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In the case of x-rays possibility, one can use photographic plate or florescent material exposed to the arc. Even exotic particles (may have produced) may leave tome traces on the plate :) Once detected, magnets at proximity would provide polarity of the 
charges, speed and charge/mass ratio.



Scott Little wrote:
> 
> 
> I agree that you won't be seeing any detectable x-rays from your 2100 volt
> arc.  Even if you did make some 2 keV x-rays, they wouldn't get thru the GM
> tube's window.  However, if you want to be damned sure you're not detecting
> real x-rays, simple insert a thick non-conducting (so it won't affect the
> EM noise) shield plate between the arc and the GM tube.  For example, a
> 1/4" thick glass plate would be wonderful shielding for 2keV x-rays.  Since
> x-rays go in straight lines, it only needs to be large enuf to provide a
> complete shadowing of the GM tube.
> 
> I predict that such a thick plate will have essentially zero effect on the
> counts you're seeing...which will prove that they're not real x-rays.
> 

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 12:42:55 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Fuel crisis in England
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Soo Seddon wrote me an amusing note about the fuel crisis in England:

"Protesters are blockading fuel companies in an attempt to get the
government to reduce the hideous amount of tax added to the otherwise
reasonable price we Brits have to pay for gasoline.  The knock-on effects
are that Brit. society is likely to grind to a halt any day now.

Tonight I queued for one hour to fill my Renault Clio with unleaded.  I
then went to the supermarket and queued again for basic food
supplies..................all the UK is panic-buying. . . ."

The crisis is caused by the tax on gasoline and a strike by the people who
deliver fuel, if I understand the reports correctly. Or maybe the
protestors are not working for the gasoline distributors? It isn't clear to
me. Anyway, this is not a technical problem with gasoline, or a shortage.
The UK is a major supplier of North Sea oil; I do not think there could be
a shortage in England. However, from our perspective (Soo's and mine), the
crisis is caused by the nature of conventional fuel. With decentralized
energy from cold fusion, you would not need people to deliver fuel, and
there is no way a small group of workers could paralyze society by refusing
to cooperate or do their jobs.

The New York Times reports:

"The flow of gasoline was estimated to be less than 10 percent of what is
regularly scheduled, and almost all of it was designated for the vital
services sector rather than the nation's gas pumps. The Petrol Retailers'
Association warned it could be three weeks before Britain was back to normal."

and:

"John Monks, the general secretary of the Trades Union Congress, condemned
the protests as a 'bosses blockade' and, citing a stark example, urged all
union members to avoid participating in them. 'Let me remind you of another
occasion when trucks and lorries were used by the self-employed and the
far-right to attack democracy,' he told a Congress meeting in Glasgow.
'That was in 1973 in Chile, and it started a chain of events which brought
down the Allende government.'"

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 12:52:56 2000
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I might add, I would appreciate it if someone in England would briefly
explain to me what is going on. Who is doing what to whom? I would like to
write a few paragraphs about this for the magazine. I expect Soo will write
an article, but I'd like to explain to American and Japanese readers what
is going on.

- Jed

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>On 9 Sep 2000, at 21:46, David Dennard wrote:
>
>>  It has always been the passions of
>>  amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great
>>  discoveries...

And Lynn Kurt responded;

>That is a crock of BS and your spouting it every time you post
>something doesn't make it true.
>

I have heard the same story Lynn, Most of the great discoveries were 
made by individuals. While they were no doubt working in the field, 
and were not "amateur" they were loners prusuing their passions. not 
academics or workers in corporate invention factories.






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Please note that this is also subject of special relativity. clocks slow down due to velocity. disk peripheral/diamter ratio become less than pi. Thought experiments based on rotating frame of reference are widely used by Einstein in his book "Relativity"
.


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 7:11 AM 9/13/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >According to General Relativity a clock slows down during acceleration:
> >
> >T' = T (1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 * v^2/r
> >

Regards, hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 14:44:00 2000
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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:32:46 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on
  Pd-black? 9.13.00
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For those who have not read the Clarke Fusion Technology preprint that
Murray refers to, let me state the problem posed by these two papers, in a
few sentences. I will say more later, if I can better grasp what Clarke,
McKubre et al. are saying.

McKubre measured 64 +/- 6 MJ of excess heat produced by one of his Arata
cells. Yet he measured no significant helium in the D2 gas or palladium
black. The cell did appear to produce relatively huge amounts of tritium,
but not enough to account for the excess heat, assuming the conventional
reaction: D + D => 3H + 1H + 4.03 MeV. That would only produce "between 1.3
KJ and 3.1 KJ." The question is, how to account for the deficit of reaction
products. That is the issue Murray is trying to address.

After listening to McKubre's triumphant lectures about the Case cell, I
wrote in Infinite Energy, "The helium issue is now closed." He was talking
about to the corroboration of the bulk Pd helium studies with the Case
cell. Now I realize that during a few minutes of his wide-ranging ICCF8
lecture he did mention that no commensurate helium was found in the Arata
cell, so the issue is not closed after all. I gather Clarke & McKubre have
concluded that there never was any helium. I do not think it was found with
online detectors during the experiment. It did not leak out, or sequester
itself. It was never was there in the first place.

This raises many questions, obviously. Question 1, I suppose: Did Arata
measure helium correctly? I cannot judge that issue, but I think it is safe
to say that Arata is incorrect when he states that the reaction is "fully
repeatable." The heat does seem repeatable, but the nuclear products are
not. Perhaps they vary from one run to another, depending upon subtle
differences in materials or cell conditions.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 14:46:37 2000
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Could these events be caused by Shoulders' charge clusters? It may not be necessary
to invoke anything weird, but is it possible that the right conditions are being
set up to generate these monstrous charges? If so, you should be able to see
tiny (20um, I think) holes in the metal shield.


>
>In the case of x-rays possibility, one can use photographic plate or florescent
material exposed to the arc. Even exotic particles (may have produced) may leave
tome traces on the plate :) Once detected, magnets at proximity would provide
polarity of the charges, speed and charge/mass ratio.
>
>Scott Little wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I agree that you won't be seeing any detectable x-rays from your 2100 volt

>> arc.  Even if you did make some 2 keV x-rays, they wouldn't get thru the
GM
>> tube's window.  However, if you want to be damned sure you're not detecting

>> real x-rays, simple insert a thick non-conducting (so it won't affect the

>> EM noise) shield plate between the arc and the GM tube.  For example, a
>> 1/4" thick glass plate would be wonderful shielding for 2keV x-rays.  Since

>> x-rays go in straight lines, it only needs to be large enuf to provide a

>> complete shadowing of the GM tube.
>> 
>> I predict that such a thick plate will have essentially zero effect on the

>> counts you're seeing...which will prove that they're not real x-rays.
>> 
>
>Regards, hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 15:20:12 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: suppression of F E technology?
In-Reply-To: <a04330101b5e3134fd131 [205.215.192.228]>
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>David Dennard wrote:
>
>>  It has always been the passions of
>>  amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great
>>  discoveries...

>And Lynn Kurt responded;
>
>>That is a crock of BS and your spouting it every time you post
>>something doesn't make it true.
>>
>
>I have heard the same story Lynn, Most of the great discoveries were 
>made by individuals. While they were no doubt working in the field, 
>and were not "amateur" they were loners prusuing their passions. not 
>academics or workers in corporate invention factories.

This is big issue in the history of science & technology. The assertion is
not exactly a crock of BS, but it surely is in the sense that Dennard means
it. I suppose he has in mind unlearned, unpracticed amateurs working in
mature fields. Such people NEVER contribute anything, as far as I know.
However, outsiders and people that the professionals might consider
"amateurs" have often made contributions. Let me list a few examples:

Alexander Graham Bell knew very little about electricity, but he invented
the telephone. This was not a mature field in 1876. However, Bell was an
expert in human speech, the ear, the ear drum and sound. This knowledge was
obviously relevant to the discovery.

Stanford Ovshinsky has made important discoveries in photovoltaics,
thermal-energy conversion, storage batteries, fuel cells, information
processing and catalysis, and recently in amorphous photovoltaics. He does
not have a college degree. But he has been working intensively in these
fields for decades! After ten years or so doing research that would baffle
most grad students, you lose your "amateur" status. Someone else, with the
proper qualifications, won a Nobel prize for one of Ovshinksy's discoveries.

I have talked about the Wrights too often perhaps, but I would like to
reiterate that their engineering and physics knowledge was far ahead of the
professional scientists working on aviation from 1880 to 1908. Some of
their research techniques and data treatment is difficult to duplicate with
a computer and a team of experts. This is literally true. A team experts
are building a replica of the 1903 Flyer for a commemorative flight in
December 2003. They are trying to reconstruct the research step-by-step
from the notebooks (which have copious detail and lots of math, but not
much context). The more they learn, the more astounded that are at the
Wright's abilities and at the speed of progress between 1899 and 1903. The
replicators may not be able to meet the schedule, despite budget exceeding
$1 million, computers, and 97 years of hindsight. See the Atlanta Journal
today:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/wednesday/news_93f
b12ffc1eb80931030.html

- Jed


QUOTES FROM ARTICLE:


Trying to get it Wright by 2003

Centennial of flight features difficult replication effort

Timothy R. Gaffney - Cox News Service

Wednesday, September 13, 2000

Washington --- A good measure of what the Wright brothers accomplished with
the world's first powered flight is how difficult it's proving to duplicate
their feat a century later. 

A coalition of aviation organizations and government agencies will spend
more than $1 million, use NASA research facilities and tap the talents of
historians and engineers to try to build and fly a replica of the Wright
Flyer on Dec. 17, 2003, the 100th anniversary of powered flight. . . .

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Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:58:22 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:32:46 -0400:
[snip]
>McKubre measured 64 +/- 6 MJ of excess heat produced by one of his Arata
>cells. Yet he measured no significant helium in the D2 gas or palladium
>black. The cell did appear to produce relatively huge amounts of tritium,
>but not enough to account for the excess heat, assuming the conventional
>reaction: D + D => 3H + 1H + 4.03 MeV. That would only produce "between 1.3
>KJ and 3.1 KJ." The question is, how to account for the deficit of reaction
>products. That is the issue Murray is trying to address.
[snip]
Such a result however would perhaps be compatible with Deuterino formation,
including the occasional CAF reaction producing T.
I suspect that McKubre didn't look for any of Mills' "by products".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: Re: Query: Radiation through shield
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In reply to  xplorer's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:25:25 +0700:
Hi,

You didn't mention what the arc is in, or what the electrodes are made of.


>Hi Vorts:
>
>I've got some kind of energy from a 2100vdc arc
> that punches through a shield made of:
> 1 layer household aluminium foil
> 1 layer 0.5mm polyester film housing
> 1 fiberglass PCB board (sparsely clad - no ground plane)
> spaced over 30 mm with air at 80% humidity
> 
> into a Geiger Mueller at 350v potential.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 17:26:21 2000
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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:26:42 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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On 13 Sep 2000, at 16:20, thomas malloy wrote:

> >On 9 Sep 2000, at 21:46, David Dennard wrote:
> >
> >>  It has always been the passions of
> >>  amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great
> >>  discoveries...
> 
> And Lynn Kurt responded;
> 
> >That is a crock of BS and your spouting it every time you post
> >something doesn't make it true.
> >
> 
> I have heard the same story Lynn, Most of the great discoveries were 
> made by individuals. While they were no doubt working in the field, 
> and were not "amateur" they were loners prusuing their passions. not 
> academics or workers in corporate invention factories.
> 
> 

I don't usually post the whole thread in a response but, hey, its 
pretty short. Thomas, that doesn't sound like the "same story" to 
me. You are agreeing with me. A lone genius working in his field 
does not qualify as an "amateur". Amateurs are generally NOT the 
ones making the great discoveries.

I am a mathematician and I cannot think of a single breakthrough in 
the last 30 years made by an amateur, although I have seen 
"proofs" of the (known to be impossible) angle trisection problem 
by such people. This period has given rise to important 
breakthroughs and new fields in mathematics such as chaos 
theory, wavelet theory, and fractals as well as solutions of some of 
the major historical unsolved problems such as the Bieberbach 
Conjecture and Ferrnat's last theorem, to mention a few. None 
were done by amateurs although the last is a famous 
comtemporary example of a genius (Andrew Wiles) working alone 
and in secret. Tell me about the breakthroughs made by the 
amateurs using high school algebra.

I would wager that the situation is much the same in all of the 
scientific fields. So here is my question to the group:

Can anyone in this group name a significant breakthrough in the 
last 30 years in chemistry, physics, computers and computer 
science, biotechnology, or ?? that was made by an amateur? 
Remember, well educated people working in their fields don't count 
as amateurs, whether or not they are "loners".

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 18:48:43 2000
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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
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Subject: Shielding:Re: Query: Radiation through shield
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	Dear Folks,

	The design of shields can be an art as much as a science.
	To cause an assembly (shield assembly) to be effective 
you must take into account WHAT you are shielding... and HOW you are going
to do it and WHY (is it for example, to make low level tests..?)

	The shield specified below, between  "_____FLAG____" markers is
not a particularly effective shield and has large areas of a spectrum in
the Electro Magnetic (EM) domain which the shield will not be useful for.
	In addition this shield addresses magnetic fields not at all!
	
	Short on time, a fututre letter will describe a shield which is
"OK" for lab work... not great, just "OK".

	Many emissions from a spark or arc sources are broad band from
the view point of several disciplines in the magnetic, electric, EM and
mechanical domains, to name a few in a non-inclusive listing.

				John
				

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Scott Little wrote:

> At 10:25 PM 9/13/00 +0700, xplorer wrote:
> 
> I've got some kind of energy from a 2100vdc arc
> >  that punches through a shield made of:
> >  1 layer household aluminium foil
> >  1 layer 0.5mm polyester film housing
> >  1 fiberglass PCB board (sparsely clad - no ground plane)
> >  spaced over 30 mm with air at 80% humidity
> >
> >  into a Geiger Mueller at 350v potential.
> 
> In my experience it's almost impossible to adequately shield a detector 
> system like your GM tube from EM noise created by arcs....even real weak 
> ones.  I'd bet it's a certainty that you still have EM interference causing 
> your elevated GM counts.
> 
> If you want to improve the shielding, try enclosing the arc device (with 
> its batteries) inside of a steel box.  It definitely won't be adequate to 
> erect a flat shield between the two devices, one or the other must be fully 
> enclosed.  Further, the ferromagnetic (steel) box provides considerably 
> better shielding that just an electrically conductive box (aluminum).
> 
> I agree that you won't be seeing any detectable x-rays from your 2100 volt 
> arc.  Even if you did make some 2 keV x-rays, they wouldn't get thru the GM 
> tube's window.  However, if you want to be damned sure you're not detecting 
> real x-rays, simple insert a thick non-conducting (so it won't affect the 
> EM noise) shield plate between the arc and the GM tube.  For example, a 
> 1/4" thick glass plate would be wonderful shielding for 2keV x-rays.  Since 
> x-rays go in straight lines, it only needs to be large enuf to provide a 
> complete shadowing of the GM tube.
> 
> I predict that such a thick plate will have essentially zero effect on the 
> counts you're seeing...which will prove that they're not real x-rays.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 22:35:43 2000
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From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
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Subject: Murray: Carrell: Shanahan: Rothwell: some history on Arata cells excess 
 heat claims 9.13.00
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Murray: Carrell: Shanahan: Rothwell:
some history on Arata cells excess heat claims 9.13.00

Hello,  I've saved a vast number of cold fusion posts since 1996 on my
hard drive, and can search them fairly quickly, since I put so much key
info on my Subject lines.   McKubre et al at SRI with W. Brian Clarke
mailed two papers on 8.31.00, that claimed excess energy totaled
64 +-6 MJ for three months of D2O cathodic electrolysis--
about the same level reported for years by Arata--
for a single Arata supplied Pd electrode, which also
showed strong evidence by MS for T, decaying into well
measured He-3.

But relentless examination of Arata's papers by Murray,
Kirk Shanahan, and others have raised many points of concern,
ranging from very incomplete descriptions of the runs to data within the

runs that weaken Arata's heat claims.
As is often the case in 11 years of
cold fusion research, the excess heat was in the range of 10-20% over
input electric power.  First, if the source of the excess heat is
nuclear reactions, why is the excess heat so limited?
Second, there seem to be
a zillion ways in which a mere 10-20 % excess heat can arise from
artifacts.  I am not aware that McKubre et al have released for public
discussion the details of their excess heat claims.  At least, a careful

study of these posts, and of much more in the Vortex-L archives,
can help set a high standard for complete and detailed disclosure,
enabling competent and definitive evaluation of the value of the claims.

Bear in mind that their two papers with W. Brian Clarke,
mailed out 8.31.00,
give some evidence for  He-3, but not for He-4, in samples
of Pd-black used in three cells claimed by Arata and Zhang
to produce  in D2O huge excess energy
(in one, ~ 70 MJ (~20 KJ/hr for 3500 hrs).

36 KJ/hr = 10 watts.

Rich Murray  rmforall earthlink.net
****************************************************

Subject:   Preliminary Report on ICCF-8
 Resent-Date:  Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:19:25 -0700
 Resent-From:   vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:    Fri, 02 Jun 2000 16:18:59 -0400
       From:    Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>

"P. Hagelstein, (64) "A Model for Fast Ion Emission in Metal
Deuterides."
Theory. Hagelstein told me he has been working more closely with McKubre

recently, and they have successfully
designed experiments which address
theoretical questions. Hagelstein sees significant progress both with
theories (his own and the Chubbs' in particular) and he thinks there is
better agreement between data and theory than in previous ICCFs. He
seemed quite optimistic."

"M. McKubre, (29) "The Emergence of a Coherent
Explanation for Anomalies
Observed in D/Pd and H/Pd Systems."
There is so much to say about this, it is hard to know what to squeeze
into this preliminary note. McKubre has
outdone himself with the Case and Arata
replications, which are far better than the originals. The helium issue
is now closed. Cold fusion produces
helium "commensurate" with heat,
meaning the helium-4 production rate is
comparable to a hot fusion D-D reaction.

The helium can only be a product of the
reaction, not contamination, for
several reasons, mainly because in 4 out
of 16 cases it was measured at
levels far above atmospheric concentration. (In other words, the helium
may have leaked out of the cell, but it could
not have leaked in.) The helium-3
and tritium results were also definitive. The ratio of helium-4 to
helium-3 in nature is 1:800,000. With the
Case replication it reaches 1:67, 12,000
times higher than in nature, and in the inner chamber of the Arata
replication the ratio is 44,000 times higher than nature.
McKubre thinks the helium-3 is mainly the product of tritium decay.

Huge amounts of tritium were found in some cells. The researchers
devised a machine to pierce the Arata double
structured cathodes and extract a sample
of the gas inside them while rigorously excluding outside contamination.

Samples were tested at one of the world's most sensitive mass
spectrometers, in a laboratory specializing in the detection of helium,
hydrogen and other light elements at McMaster University. One sample of
unknown contents from a newly opened cell turned out to have over 1000
times more tritium than anything previously submitted to that
instrument. It put the instrument out of commission
for three months.

Here is a quote from McKubre's summary at the end of his talk: "These
results obtained in three different metal sealed cells, by three
different calorimetric methods, with both electrochemical and gas
loading experiments.  The helium-4 analyses
have now been performed in four
different institutions, helium-3 analyses in two different
institutions."

Helium has been detected for many years by different researchers, but
never in such large amounts, at such high concentration
It has never been observed with such huge
large signal-to-noise ratios, or produced so
consistent and reliably. The Case cell works about two-thirds of the
time at SRI, and the  Arata DS-cathodes work every time.
These are difficult experiments and it is extremely
unlikely they would work as smoothly in
laboratories with less skilled researchers. This is no claim of "easy
replicability" such as Warner and Dash make.

After the lecture, McKubre was asked
about evidence of transmutations or
other changes to the cathode material.
He said it was too early to comment
on this subject. Tom Passell, retired from EPRI, told me that he has
acquired some of the use cathode material and he is conducting the
analysis. He has subsidized, below-cost access to high-quality mass
spectroscopy.
In this research, SRI cooperated closely
with Osaka University, McMaster
University, Pacific Northwest Labs, ENEA,
and individuals including L. Case, R. George, and T. Passell.
This openness and wide-ranging
collaboration is exactly what this field needs most. SRI, McKubre,
Tanzella and Tripodi should be congratulated
for these spectacular results." [ TPassell epri.com ]

"Y. Arata, (18) "Definitive Difference among [Bulk-D2O], [DS-D2O] and
[DS-H2O] Cells in the Deuterization and Deuterium-reactions." This was
probably an important paper, and
it may have been definitive, but alas I
have no clue what Arata said. His English is so poor
that despite thirty years of experience listening to
Japanese-accented English, I cannot
make out what he says. His viewgraphs do not help much either
They show of a tangle of graphs too small to read
from a distance, and tables without
headings. I will review the tape,
but I will probably not understand
what he has in mind until the proceedings are published."

"S. Chubb, (25) "Theoretical Framework for Anomalous Heat and Helium-4
in Transition Metal Systems." Theory.
An enthusiastic performance. Chubb
compared some aspects of CF to HTSC,
the Mossbauer effect and other
well-established phenomena, and ended by suggesting that in these
effects, groups of atoms band together in what
might be called a meta-particle (my term),
and a change which affects one affects them all simultaneously,
which explains how the heat manages to couple to the lattice at the
speed of a nuclear reaction,
without tearing apart the host metal. He thinks
this is true simultaneity, or as one member
of the audience called it, "superluminal electrolysis.""
[end of ICC8 notes by Jed Rothwell]
******************************************************

October 25, 1997  Rich Murray  rmforall earthlink.net
[beginning of post to Vortex-L]

Dear all,

I have spent two hours reviewing the 56-page report by Yoshiaki Arata
and Yue-Chang Zhang, "Solid-State Plasma Fusion," (Received Sept. 5,
1996) Special Issue of the High Temperature Society, Vol. 23, Jan.,
1997.  I am indebted to Mike Carrell for generously sending me a copy.
Four pages describe the apparatus and calorimetry, and are the focus of
this critique.

Having this week composed a critique on calorimetry of the CETI cell, I
find almost the identical situation.  No discussion is offered about the

issue of recombination,
except for the label "closed cell system" and
the label "Catalyst" for a large area at the top quarter of the cell
interior.  The composition, mass, and efficiency of this catalyst are
not given.  No attempt is made to collect and measure output H2 and O2
to verify the degree of recombination.

The electrolyte is .1M LiOH in D2O, volume and flow rate not given.  The

anode is Pt, shape, size, mass, purity not given.
The cathode is Pd,
shape, size, mass, purity not given.  The cathode is hollow and contains

for (a) 3 gm Pd black powder, .2 to .6 micron size,
mean .4, about .3 cc,
since Pd has density about 10 gm/cc,
while (b) has 5 gm, Pd-B, about .5 cc.
The method of sealing of the cathode
is not described.  "It seems that Pc [pressure]
inside closed type DS-cathodes will be rising
up several thousand [atm] which is estimated
from deformation of outside appearance..."
This suggest the possibility of leaks,
which could generate some of the data spikes.
*************************************************

Subject:  Second Arata Errata
      Date:   Sat, 08 Nov 1997 08:15:04 -0600
      From:  Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
[selections]
The electrolyte is .1M LiOH in D2O, volume and flow rate not given.
[Only a 10-20% reduction in flow rate could easily generate the 10-20%
apparent excess power. The community has to be provided with the
specific flow rate data for the whole history of these runs, if an
anomaly is to be established. What were the actual temperatures?  How
pure was the initial cooling water?  How long was it used, and how often

changed?  Was the actual composition
of this water determined regularly
during the months and, indeed, years of operation?  How much water, and
exposed to how much area of possible impurities, like the cooling tube
itself, of unknown size and composition, the reservoir, the pump
itself.  This setup was run for years.  Don't we need explicit checks
about leaks putting impurities from the pump and the electrolyte into
the water, or even bacteria, which can flourish even in hot and
radioactive nuclear reactor water?  As the water composition shifts, so
does specific heat and viscosity, so do bubbles, suds, foams, gels,
gunks, solid deposits.  Gunk in the pump?  Can some of this stuff act to

create higher heat at the thermocouple,
by catalysis or something?  Of
course, I don't know!  I'm a layman.  I'm raising simple questions that
must be settled before any claim can be made about excess heat at a
level that mandates a nuclear explanation.]  The anode is Pt, shape,
size, mass, purity not given. [Again, a source of impurities that can
change the electrolysis erratically.]  The cathode is Pd, shape, size,
mass, purity not given.  [A new idea for us here: Only a fraction of the

input electrolysis power serves to heat
up the cathode above the
temperature of the electrolyte.  Yet, if the apparent excess power is
nuclear, then perhaps 14 or so Watts is being generated in the .5 cc,
5gm Pd-B powder-- so you experts, how hot is that powder going to be for

weeks and months?
Will it diffuse, fuse, melt, react chemically with
the Pd cathode and its impurities, or via leaks with the electrolyte?
What is the appearance of the Pd-B in the eight runs?  This question
could disconfirm the claim that 14 Watts excess power was generated in
an amount of Pd-B the size of a large pill.  What was its heat transfer
path to the cathode?  If electrolyte leaked in and vaporized or boiled,
how would that effect things?] The cathode is hollow and contains for
(a) 3 gm Pd black powder, .2 to .6 micron size, mean .4, about .3 cc,
since Pd has density about 10 gm/cc, while (b) has 5 gm, Pd-B, about .5
cc.  The method of sealing of the cathode is not described. [Extraction
of the Pd-B for analysis could introduce impurities, including He, so we

must have the details.]
 "It seems that Pc [pressure] inside closed type
DS-cathodes will be rising up several thousand [atm]
which is estimated
from deformation of outside appearance..."
This suggest the possibility of leaks,
which could generate some of the data spikes.

"The data for cathode (a) shows that several hundred [MJ/cm3] of excess
energy has been created over several thousand hours using Pd-black 3
[gr], while cathode (b) has generated approximately 50 [MJ] over 800
hours with 5 [gr} of Pd-black.  The rate at which the excess energy is
being generated is roughly equal for the two, and other samples were
also at a similar level."  [Why aren't we given the specific data for
the other six runs?  What does "a similar level" mean?]

Figure 8(a) shows Cell power (excess energy) over 4750 hours, varying in

what may be one-day spikes of about 10 KJ/hr
to about one-week spikes of
about 30 to a maximum down spike, unexplained, from about 100 to about
20 KJ/hr, at 3600 hours.  The average in the last 20% is about 30
KJ/hr.  This is the same rate as 30 KW/hr, or 8 W.  On the next [Carrell

is right, the word should be "previous"]
page, 6, Fig. 6 mentions, "Our
usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts and "cell-power" is
clearly negative with about minus one watt [for a Pt control cathode] as

shown in this diagram."
So, this control run is given a value on the
graph of "~0.7" W, or .8 to .7% of the usual input
electrical power. [I was pointing out the listing of overly precise
numbers like "~0.7".] "Clearly negative"!
Likewise, 8 W is 7 to 5.5% of
the usual input power.
Naturally, these kind of percentages are never given in this paper.
These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded
calorimetry, are meaningless noise, readily achived if the recombiner
catalyst is only partially effective. [Here is a blatant error on my
part, since recombination would only reduce any apparent excess power.]
Cathode (b) seems to be about 50 KJ/hr [Carrell emphasizes this is about

60 KJ/hr.] for the last 20% of its 850-day run,
about 14 W, giving 12 to
9% of input power, while showing a completely different time history.
[These percentages are low, if the energy source is nuclear, and thus
suggest to my suspicious mind that ordinary physical and chemical
artifacts are involved.  It's a debatable issue...]  Two
relevant [Not relevant to A&Z, I confess.] abstracts on recombination
are given at the end of this critique, for the benefit of painfully
earnest researchers.  [OK, I admit it, I'm being sarcastic.]

The random nature of the heat data is indicated in Fig. 6 by the Cell
Power for the Pt to Pt control cell, expressed as W out vs W in.  [It is

not clear what this data is from-- many control runs?
Were control runs
done before, during, or after the months
and years of experimental
runs?  Don't electrolysis setups drift?]  There are about 6 values from
about 0 to about 1.5 W for zero input power [Hey, guys, why?], and for
input powers from 20 to about 130 W, the output ranges from -2 to +2 W
at each power level [What causes this-- artifacts, yes, unknown, yes.
If minor artifacts generate up to ~1.5 W apparent excess power for zero
input power, then it is plausible to surmise that larger unknown
artifacts are generating 10-20% apparent excess power in the
experimental runs, which over time, are bound to diverge greatly from
the far shorter control runs.].  Similar data are not given for the two
experimental runs. [What is the background scatter in all eight
experimental runs for various input power levels?  What, for instance,
is the exact duration of the spike from 20 to 60 KJ/hr spike at 2600
hours in Fig. 8a for the 3 gm Pd-Black cathode?  This information would
help us consider possible artifacts.]
Fig. 8, Note 2: "Generating pattern of each sample displays significant
difference with chronological change.  however, each total amount of
excess energy included the eight samples used from 1992 to now was
almost same."  [typos in the original]  [Why aren't we given the
detailed data?  "almost same"?  And, "significant difference with
chronological change" may mean the energy output curves over time were
quite different for each sample.  This data could help identify possible

artifacts.]
********************************************************

Subject:   Murray: Another Arata Errata
    Date:   Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:30:58 -0600
   From:   Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>

Dec. 13, 1997

Dear all,   With Mike Carrell laying down travelling barrages, while
I've been cowering in my foxhole, with Scott Little poking me in the
ribs, I've finally had to do something...make a dash for some specific
data, the only safe refuge for a poor harassed skeptic.

Page 6, Fig. 6b: "Basic characteristic of closed cell with Pt anode-Pt
cathode":  Cell Power = (4.2 X MC X delta T) - (t X I X Vo), is graphed
against Qin = (t X I X Vo). [t seems to be a mere constant.]  Vo seems
to me to hint that the electric power input is at constant voltage,
delivering up to, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-130
watts."  For input watts 0, 20, 40-45, 56, 70-85, 90-135, the Cell Power

watts lies in a range from almost 2 to a bit
over -2, with surprisingly
little change at each input power level.  Since Fig. 8c on Page 7 shows
that Qout [= 4.2 X MC X delta T, I surmise] is roughly somewhat more
than a linear function of Qin = t X I X Vo, then wouldn't we expect the
variation in Cell Power to grow roughly linearly with input power?  The
values at input power 0 range from about 1.5 to -.5 watt, so this must
be the intrinsic error of the calorimetry, whether from errors in
delta-T or variations in flow rate or other factors.  I'd appreciate
some input from calorimeter experts as to the possible significance of
this relative constancy of the absolute error variation at input powers
up to 135 watts.

Again, I note, as I have over and over, that we are not given such
details as the actual input and output T values and delta T values, the
actual voltages, currents, and resistances, the total amount of cooling
water, the actual flow rates and variations of flow rates, the number
and timing of calibrations, during four years of runs.

Scott Little of EarthTech International in Austin, Texas, has on his
website a detailed, complete descriptions of his dual method
calorimeter. A number of four-day runs are graphed with continuous
records of input voltage [with constant current], Power ouput via flow
calorimetry, Power output via Newton's Law of Cooling, Power input, and
Room temperature.  Temperatures are measured to +-0.2 degree C.
Flow was manually checked to be 23.4+-0.4 ml/min, or +-1.7%.
This system had a detection limit of about 0.1 watts.
The air bath was stirred by two fans, and its temperature
determined by the average of three sensors.
[http://www.eden.com/~little/dual.htm]

Fig. 8b on Page 7 shows 900 hours of Cell Power for the 5 gm Pd-Black
cathode, going from about 10 to as high as 80 KJ/hr.  [36 KJ/hr = 10
watts.]  Not mentioned are previous data, on page 11 of Infinite Energy,

May-June, 1995, for the 5 gm cathode,
for 2700 hours, not including a
two weeks elapsed initial period, which varies repeatedly from about 10
to -10 KJ/hr for the first three days graphed, and plunges down in a
spike from 60 to -5 to 90 KJ/hr at 2200 hours.

Fig. 8c shows the ratio for the 900 hours of data as Qout = 4.2 X MC X
delta T versus Qin = t X I X Vo, both in watts, with over fifty points
from 87 to 137 watts input.  This indicates that very many input power
levels were applied.  We have no details for the actual power input
history of the 900 hours, or for the duration of each power input level.

Obviously, most of the striking variations in Cell Power in Fig. 8b
could be from variations in input power. Likewise, until this issue is
explicitly clarified, the skeptic has to assume that the
other graphs of Cell Power have the same problem.

Scott Little kept his input power levels, continuously recorded, at
constant levels, usually for a day or more.  His graphs show that his
flow calorimetry can take up to two hours to stabilize, when the input
power is raised about 20% from a level of about .6 watt [cell with
ersatz Pd/Ni/Pd beads, on web site].

Fig. 9 on Page 8: "Relation between pressure Pc [atm] inside
"Particles-Gap", and cell power (excess energy) (KJ/hr)", for 1600 hour
run of an [undescribed] Double Structure cathode, DS-K, which shows
pressure rising three times from 0 to as much as 800 atm.  At 0 to about

120 hours, Cell Power rises to about 20 KJ/hr
and then varies at that
level until 350 hr, while the pressure rises steeply to 600 atm.  There
is no clear correlation of pressure and power for these first five days.

Then after 300 hours the power rises steeply to about 40 KJ/hr,
fluctuates, while the pressure levels off at 800 atm, until at about 30
KJ/hr at 700 hours, the power is off for 2 hours.  [It is not clear if
only the electrolysis power was off, or also the cooling flow.]  The
pressure dipped a little, almost 100 atm, while power dropped to 15
KJ/hr, fluctuated at that level for about a day, then jumped to 25
KJ/hr.  So, there was in this event again, no correlation of pressure
and power, especially since pressure continued to decline steadily upon
resumption of power.  Cell Power did not rise until a day after
resumpiton of power, even though pressure was nearly 700 atm.

By 900 hours pressure had declined steadily and smoothly to 500 atm, and

power was fluctuating at 20 KJ/hr,
when power was off for 52 hours.
Pressure fell steeply to less than 100 atm, and power fell to 10 KJ/hr.
Then power jumped immediately to 30 KJ/hr and fluctuated at that level
until 1200 hours, while pressure rose, as in the first ten days,  to
over 400 atm.  Again, there is no correlation between pressure and
power.

Then power was off for 86 hours.  Pressure fell steeply and smoothly to
about 50 atm, while power fell to 10 KJ/hr.  Then, power jumped to the
30 KJ/hr level and rose to 40 KJ/hr by 1600 hours, while pressure rose
more quickly than before to a peak of about 700 atm at about 1500 hr,
and then started falling steeply to 500 atm.  Again, there was no
correlation between pressure and power: in all three mid-run startups,
substantial power appeared before pressure rose appreciably.

Interpretation is made difficult, since we are not sure how many
different power levels were applied during this complex run.  No
explanation for the three power interruptions was given, or for the
final decline in pressure.  Certainly, there is no evidence to indicate
a positive correlation between pressure in the Pd-Black inside the Pd
cathode, which may be correlated with level of deuterium loading, and
Cell Power.  This weakens the case for deuterium nuclear reactions, and
so points in the direction of calorimeter error or unknown artifacts.
***********************************************************

I am grateful to W. Brian Clarke for the unexpected gift of his two
papers, sent 8.31.00, which came 9.8.00.

"Search for He-3 and He-4 in Arata-style palladium cathodes"
Part I: a negative result, by Clarke only,
15 pages, 2 tables, 3 figures.
Part II: evidence for tritium production,
41 pages, 6, tables, 9 figures.
Submitted to  Fusion Technology,
W.Brian Clarke, Prof. Emeritus, Dept. Physics & Astronomy, Hamilton,
Ontario L8S 4K1  Canada  905-525-9140 Ext. 24454
fax 905-528-4339   wbclarke mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca
"Search for H-3, He-3 and He-4 in D2-loaded titanium,"
with R.M. Clarke, Fusion Tech., 21, 170 (1992).

Brian M. Oliver, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, POB 999,
Richland, Washington 99302   509-376-9228   Brian.Oliver pnl.gov

Michael C. H. McKubre, SRI International, Menlo Park, California 94025
SRI info 650-859-4771   mike.mckubre qm.sri.com

Francis L. Tanzella   fran_tanzella qm.sri.com

Paulo Tripodi   paulo.tripodi qm.sri.com
**********************************************************


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Some links:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&lt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.deja.com/[ST_artlink=3D=
lephiggs.web.cern.ch]/jump/http://lephiggs.web.cern.ch/LEPHIGGS/talks/tul=
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>&gt; &lt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.deja.com/[ST_artlink=3Dl3www.cern.ch]/jum=
p/http://l3www.cern.ch/scan_program/2000/higgs.html">http://l3www.cern.ch=
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=2Edeja.com/[ST_artlink=3Dalephwww.cern.ch]/jump/http://alephwww.cern.ch/=
ALPUB/seminar/lepc_sep00/lepc_0509.pdf">http://alephwww.cern.ch/ALPUB/sem=
inar/lepc_sep00/lepc_0509.pdf</A>&gt; &lt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.deja.com/=
[ST_artlink=3Dphysicsweb.org]/jump/http://physicsweb.org/article/news/04/=
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ing) &lt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.deja.com/[ST_artlink=3Dwww.nytimes.com]/ju=
mp/http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/06/science/06PART.html">http://www.nyti=
mes.com/2000/09/06/science/06PART.html</A>&gt;<BR>&nbsp;<BR>My own editor=
ial comment is that it would be very depressing if it was just the SM <B>=
Higgs</B> that was found.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Aaron<BR>
<font face=3D"courier" size=3D2>-- <BR>Aaron Bergman<BR>&lt;<A HREF=3D"ht=
tp://www.deja.com/[ST_artlink=3Dwww.princeton.edu]/jump/http://www.prince=
ton.edu/~abergman/">http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/</A>&gt;<BR></font=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 13 23:42:11 2000
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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:40:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
Resent-Message-ID: <"nHqYW.0.3s6.lB7mv" mx1>
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>On 13 Sep 2000, at 16:20, thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> >On 9 Sep 2000, at 21:46, David Dennard wrote:
>> >
>> >>  It has always been the passions of
>> >>  amateur scientists that have changed history and led to the great
>> >>  discoveries...
>>
>> And Lynn Kurt responded;
>>
>> >That is a crock of BS and your spouting it every time you post
>> >something doesn't make it true.
>> >
>>
>> I have heard the same story Lynn, Most of the great discoveries were
>> made by individuals. While they were no doubt working in the field,
>> and were not "amateur" they were loners prusuing their passions. not
>> academics or workers in corporate invention factories.
>>
>>
>
>I don't usually post the whole thread in a response but, hey, its
>pretty short. Thomas, that doesn't sound like the "same story" to
>me. You are agreeing with me. A lone genius working in his field
>does not qualify as an "amateur". Amateurs are generally NOT the
>ones making the great discoveries.
>
>I am a mathematician and I cannot think of a single breakthrough in
>the last 30 years made by an amateur, although I have seen
>"proofs" of the (known to be impossible) angle trisection problem
>by such people. This period has given rise to important
>breakthroughs and new fields in mathematics such as chaos
>theory, wavelet theory, and fractals as well as solutions of some of
>the major historical unsolved problems such as the Bieberbach
>Conjecture and Ferrnat's last theorem, to mention a few. None
>were done by amateurs although the last is a famous
>comtemporary example of a genius (Andrew Wiles) working alone
>and in secret. Tell me about the breakthroughs made by the
>amateurs using high school algebra.
>
>I would wager that the situation is much the same in all of the
>scientific fields. So here is my question to the group:
>
>Can anyone in this group name a significant breakthrough in the
>last 30 years in chemistry, physics, computers and computer
>science, biotechnology, or ?? that was made by an amateur?
>Remember, well educated people working in their fields don't count
>as amateurs, whether or not they are "loners".
>
>--Lynn

***{It is far easier to be religious by definition than by conviction, as
Dewey said long ago. Such is the case here: once you have defined "amateur"
in a contraintuitive way that excludes the self-taught, uncredentialed
genius, your desired conclusion inexorably follows. Unfortunately, that
just places it in the category of religion rather than science. The reason:
within the primitive guild system of our "modern" world, the self-taught,
uncredentialed individual is seldom employable in his field of interest due
to his uncredentialed status, and, thus, is an "amateur" in the normal, and
correct, sense of the term. --MJ}***


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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
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Subject: Hydrogen delivery rates
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:37:46 +0100
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Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a =
quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "

What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats =
that got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an "Normal" as in old =
fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient 14.7psi etc

HELP!!!

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven =
engineer=20
with explaination on a quoted delivery rate of an =
Electrolyser-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 =
"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital =
alpha was a=20
newton in force? whats that got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an =
"Normal"=20
as in old fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient 14.7psi =

etc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>HELP!!!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 07:47:48 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>Can anyone in this group name a significant breakthrough in the 
>last 30 years in chemistry, physics, computers and computer 
>science, biotechnology, or ?? that was made by an amateur?

In computer software, up until 1990 or so, amateurs made important
breakthroughs. That is because computers were so new and unreliable that
"computer science" was almost a contradiction in terms. A good example is
the invention of the computer spreadsheet by Dan Bricklin and later Mitch
Kapor. Bricklin worked with Frankson, who was a professional programmer,
but I think Bricklin contributed many of the original ideas. A spreadsheet
may not seem like much in retrospect, but someone had do it the first time.
Breakthroughs like Cobol or Pascal were more profound and complex, and I
expect they could only have been made by professionals.

In hardware, Steve Wozniack started out as an amateur. I have heard that
first Apple computers were masterpieces of elegant simplicity, which is
what you expect from a amateur genius working on a tight budget.

- Jed

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I don't often agree with Mitchell Jones, but I do here, and the fuss is over
the correct understanding of the words 'amateur' and 'education' and
'professional'.

An amateur is one is one who is so much in love with his subject that he
pursues it irresepective of monetary reward and will persist beyond
'reason'. Edison is said to have remarked about a problem as being too
difficult for a 'professional' (who is making a living out of technology),
that a solution would have to wait for an amateur to solve it. Amateurs
sometimes turn professional in science as well as sports, and then find
themselves constrained by return-on-investment decisions and the need to
produce every time. This leads to shortcuts, faking it, and all the bad
behavior by what Jones aptly calls guilds.

I've had occasion to review the work of people in the 'new energy' field. I
know of one person who shall remain nameless, who has a Ph.D. and has
persisted for a number of years with a purported OU device. The problem is
that is he completely out of his depth in measuring the performance of it,
and is unable to understand or profit from the advice of various consultants
who have come by. I am coming to the conclusion that in some cases, even a
Ph.D. might qualify as an 'expert' only in the specific subject of his
thesis, but can fall into incompetence when removed one millimeter
therefrom.

In the end we are all self-educated, in or out of a classroom. In classrooms
we have the guidance and certification of teachers. There is a hubris that
develops which assumes that a familiar body of practice is complete, and
no-one from outside one's academic community can make any breakthrough. Long
time readers of Vortex are well familiar with the Fleischmann-Pons effect
and the debates which have raged about it and continue even now after
McKubre's work showed clear experimental verification.

Breakthourghs by amateurs were easier in a time when material science did
not play so an important part in producing effects. The foundations of
electromagnetism could have been laid anytime in the last two thousand
years, for electrochemical batteries and iron working have been know for
that long. But no one made the connection, for which there is no obvious
clue. Even in our time, the key discoveries were accidental, by people
fiddling around.

It is hubris to assume that an 'amateur' is 'uneducated, or 'undisciplined
even though many are. It is also hubris to assume that 'professionals' are
objective, forward thinking and honest, even when one's turf is threatened.

Mike Carrell

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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
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At 11:37 AM 9/14/00 +0100, Noel Whitney wrote:
>Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a 
>quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
>It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
>
>What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that 
>got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an "Normal" as in old fashioned 
>NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient 14.7psi etc

I'm confused.  This is a hydrogen generator, right?  It produces H2 via 
electrolysis?  If so, maybe we can figure out what they mean if you can 
learn what current is passing thru the cell when it delivers 1 Ltr per 
Nm3.  There's a strict relationship between current and gas production.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
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At 11:37 AM 9/14/0, Noel Whitney wrote:
>Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
>quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
>It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
>
>What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that
>got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an "Normal" as in old fashioned
>NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient 14.7psi etc
>
>HELP!!!

I don't have a definite answer,  but here is what info I do have.

It appears you are correct about the N meaning normal, and Nm3 meaning
normal cubic meters. In "Prospects for hydrogen from advanced water
electrolysis - Based on results emanating from the EEC R&D subprogramme on
hydrogen (1975-83)", Report EUR 10290 EN, the term Nm3 (the 3 being
superscript) is used throughout, beginning on page 3 where the present
annual world consuption of hydrogen is quoted at "24 million tonnes (8 x
10^11 Nm3)."

Electrolyser production rates are often quoted as kg/m^2, where kg is
kilograms of hydrogen produced, and m^2 is square meters of plate area in
the electrolyser.  The produced volume is assumed to be totaled over a
period of one year.  The significance of plate area is that production cost
often linearly correlates best to plate area or current density.    Other
comon measures of electrolyser performance are current density (Q/m^2),
thermodynamic effciency (percent), energy utilization (kWh/m^3), and output
(m^3/HR or just Nm^3 with "avearage annual production" assumed.)

Your term " 1 Ltr per Nm3 " looks more like a measure of something provided
to produce a cubic meter of hydrogen.  If you hadn't stated it was an
electrolyser I would have assumed it was maybe a petroleum or coal slurry
gassification plant.  It could be a unit of storage required to support the
plant production, but that doesn't jive with with the term "delivery rate."
Could be liters of water converted to Nm^3 of hydrogen, but you would
expect 100 percent conversion for an electolyser, so that makes no sense as
an imortant number.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 08:57:26 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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I wrote:

>In hardware, Steve Wozniack started out as an amateur.

In computers and floppy drives, that is. Not electronics in general. He was
a hobbyist, a member of the Homebrew Club, I think.

Kurtz asked for examples from biotechnology. I don't know much about that,
but many of the tools of medicine invented in the last 100 years were first
designed by amateurs. For example, my grandfather, S. Doniger, designed
some of the early blood transfusion machines in the 1920s. He was in the
knife manufacturing business, and he had a degree in law, but no
qualifications in medicine or biology. He invented surgical blades and
other medical tools, which led him to work on a blood transfusion machine.
He built it on the back porch at home, testing it with cow's blood. I do
not think it was commercially successful, but he did contribute solutions
to some of the practical problems with coagulation and antisepsis.

I think you will find that amateurs often contributed the humble tools of
science & technology. The bottle washer in the lab knows best how to wash
bottles, and experiments often depend upon clean bottles, especially in
electrochemistry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 09:20:47 2000
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>It is hubris to assume that an 'amateur' is 'uneducated, or 'undisciplined
>even though many are. It is also hubris to assume that 'professionals' are
>objective, forward thinking and honest, even when one's turf is threatened.
>
>Mike Carrell

Good one Mike.  I think I'll send this one on to the BBC.  They may want to 
use this quote in their story.  :)

David


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I'd like to say this list gave support to my "amateur" science work, but it 
looks like I will only be able to say they never would really discuss 
Whirlpower, never did have to guts to stand up and say whirlpools should be 
built and tested in a scientifc manner, ever when none could meet my 
challenge and post whirlpool data, and independence concurrance of my 
research was found.

But I will tell the BBC some had few good comments.  I have spent a lifetime 
on this work.  In the mid-seventies, after I wrote, "The Crossroads" and 
Puharich tried to get me to join his "Turkey Farm" I have instead taken the 
road less traveled.  I told him those mushrooms would not given him the 
answer.  Just a dog chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not 
gonna go in your Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own 
way.  And I did.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 10:08:20 2000
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David Dennard wrote:

>I told him those mushrooms would not given him the 
>answer.  Just a dog chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not 
>gonna go in your Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own

>way.  And I did.

These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the
Whirlpool"?

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 11:38:59 2000
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:42:07 +0100
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Thanks to Scott nd Horace for explanation re Nm3 ,
I only confused the situation by incorrectly stating that this was the
amount in ltrs of water used toproduce a Nm3 of Hydrogen.
The data was taken during a study of the  www.stuartenergy.com site

Thanks all for your very prompt replies
You dont have the meaning of life -do you :)

Noel.
----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates


> At 11:37 AM 9/14/0, Noel Whitney wrote:
> >Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
> >quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
> >It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
> >
> >What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats
that
> >got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an "Normal" as in old fashioned
> >NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient 14.7psi etc
> >
> >HELP!!!
>
> I don't have a definite answer,  but here is what info I do have.
>
> It appears you are correct about the N meaning normal, and Nm3 meaning
> normal cubic meters. In "Prospects for hydrogen from advanced water
> electrolysis - Based on results emanating from the EEC R&D subprogramme on
> hydrogen (1975-83)", Report EUR 10290 EN, the term Nm3 (the 3 being
> superscript) is used throughout, beginning on page 3 where the present
> annual world consuption of hydrogen is quoted at "24 million tonnes (8 x
> 10^11 Nm3)."
>
> Electrolyser production rates are often quoted as kg/m^2, where kg is
> kilograms of hydrogen produced, and m^2 is square meters of plate area in
> the electrolyser.  The produced volume is assumed to be totaled over a
> period of one year.  The significance of plate area is that production
cost
> often linearly correlates best to plate area or current density.    Other
> comon measures of electrolyser performance are current density (Q/m^2),
> thermodynamic effciency (percent), energy utilization (kWh/m^3), and
output
> (m^3/HR or just Nm^3 with "avearage annual production" assumed.)
>
> Your term " 1 Ltr per Nm3 " looks more like a measure of something
provided
> to produce a cubic meter of hydrogen.  If you hadn't stated it was an
> electrolyser I would have assumed it was maybe a petroleum or coal slurry
> gassification plant.  It could be a unit of storage required to support
the
> plant production, but that doesn't jive with with the term "delivery
rate."
> Could be liters of water converted to Nm^3 of hydrogen, but you would
> expect 100 percent conversion for an electolyser, so that makes no sense
as
> an imortant number.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Higgs Boson
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Greetings Vortexians:

I received the article on the Higgs Boson from the Sympathetic 
Vibrational Physics email list. As some of you will remember, I 
recently posted an article about an interview with Michico Kaku in 
which he suggested that perhaps 90% of the mass in the universe is 
missing. Given the enormous size of the problem, and the potential 
ramifications of solving it. I am still thinking about it, Perhaps 
this is part of the puzzle.

>Jonathan Leake, Science Editor
>
>
>This interaction, he said, results in the formation of Higgs bosons that
>affect matter particles and give them mass. The role of the Higgs boson
>has amazed physicists because its interactions with other particles are
>so exactly what is needed to create a coherent universe.
>
>If, for example, the Higgs boson interacted with electrons slightly
>differently they would be too heavy for the elements vital for life to form.
>
>
>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/10/stifgneur01001.html
>--
>Regards,
>Dale Pond
>Delta Spectrum Research
>http://www.SVPvril.com
>Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
>Sacred Science - Sacred Life
>SVP Discussion Forum:
>http://www.egroups.com/list/svpvril/
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 12:08:12 2000
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At 07:42 PM 9/14/00 +0100, you wrote:
>Thanks to Scott nd Horace for explanation re Nm3 ,
>I only confused the situation by incorrectly stating that this was the
>amount in ltrs of water used toproduce a Nm3 of Hydrogen.

oh....  Actually it looks like 1000 gms of H20 will make 1.24 cubic meters 
of H2 gas at STP....I guess that rounds off to 1 cubic meter, doesn't it?

We live to study physics.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 12:08:52 2000
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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:06:59 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
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Hamdi Ucar wrote

>I dont know what is his ( David Denard ) logic, but it is very 
>simple, huh! It is the matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow 
>is forward universe is expanding, entropy is positive.  When the 
>arrow is backward, universe is collapsing. and entropy is 
>decreasing. When universe is flat, arrow of time is screwed, entropy 
>is f'up. :)

Entropy is what the second law of thermodynamics is all about. If you 
place a hot body in contact with a cold body the result is two warm 
bodies. This works every time it is tried. That is why it is a law. I 
assume that even David agrees with this. My question is time a 
dimension which can go backwards and forwards, or is it a progression 
which can only go one way?

Thomas

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 12:27:24 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Higgs Boson
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:20:55 PDT
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News just in.

Michio Kaku's team is joining the Whirlpower Team.  New "professional" 
website offered by Kaku's Webmaster, no charge.  It's a go for the TOE.   :)

David


>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Higgs Boson
>Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:03:30 +0100
>
>Greetings Vortexians:
>
>I received the article on the Higgs Boson from the Sympathetic
>Vibrational Physics email list. As some of you will remember, I
>recently posted an article about an interview with Michico Kaku in
>which he suggested that perhaps 90% of the mass in the universe is
>missing. Given the enormous size of the problem, and the potential
>ramifications of solving it. I am still thinking about it, Perhaps
>this is part of the puzzle.
>
>>Jonathan Leake, Science Editor
>>
>>
>>This interaction, he said, results in the formation of Higgs bosons that
>>affect matter particles and give them mass. The role of the Higgs boson
>>has amazed physicists because its interactions with other particles are
>>so exactly what is needed to create a coherent universe.
>>
>>If, for example, the Higgs boson interacted with electrons slightly
>>differently they would be too heavy for the elements vital for life to 
>>form.
>>
>>
>>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/09/10/stifgneur01001.html
>>--
>>Regards,
>>Dale Pond
>>Delta Spectrum Research
>>http://www.SVPvril.com
>>Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
>>Sacred Science - Sacred Life
>>SVP Discussion Forum:
>>http://www.egroups.com/list/svpvril/
>>
>>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>>
>>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 12:31:37 2000
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Subject: RE: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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David Dennard wrote:

I told him those mushrooms would not give him the answer.  Just a dog 
chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not gonna go in your 
Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own way.  And I did.

Steve asks:
>These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the 
>Whirlpool"?

If anyone wants to go ahead.  Might be worth something one day soon, very 
soon.  Slight edit.  I'm going to get the whirlpool data, and we will find 
out if Whirlpower is right or wrong.  The proof is in the pudding.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 12:34:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:33:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
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> Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
> quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
> It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
>
> What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that
> got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an
> "Normal" as in old fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient
> 14.7psi etc
>
> HELP!!!

***{I did a web search, and found the following:

"... the N term is an abbreviation of norm or normal  ... 'Normal', in this
connection, means a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius and a pressure of
1.013 bar, the conditions at which one mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
22.413837 liters." [See
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may99/926998893.Eg.r.html.]

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 13:36:00 2000
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Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??

I seem to remember that it is somewhere around 30% of the actual price.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 13:47:18 2000
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Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??
> 
> I seem to remember that it is somewhere around 30% of the actual price.


---

Everything seems to be about 60% for us and 30% for U.S., no?

---

John Fields

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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> Greetings Vortexians:
> 
[snip]
> 
> >Jonathan Leake, Science Editor
> >
> >
> >This interaction, he said, results in the formation of Higgs bosons that
> >affect matter particles and give them mass. The role of the Higgs boson
> >has amazed physicists because its interactions with other particles are
> >so exactly what is needed to create a coherent universe.
> >
> >If, for example, the Higgs boson interacted with electrons slightly
> >differently they would be too heavy for the elements vital for life to form.
> >

As I understand, Standard model does not bother with m=ec^-2

Does energies of some particles not correspond to their inertial or gravitational mass? But proton, electron and neutron does! I am not against this idea, but it appears some inconsistency here.

What should I read to understand this logic quickly?

I am not understanding why energy of particles are not sufficient to acquire mass in Standard Model, while a simple photon have momentum and present mass when held in a volume (say two parallel mirrors)? (reference my early thought experiment)


Regards, hamdi ucar

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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> David Dennard wrote:
> 
> I told him those mushrooms would not give him the answer.  Just a dog
> chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not gonna go in your
> Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own way.  And I did.
> 
> Steve asks:
> >These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the
> >Whirlpool"?
> 
> If anyone wants to go ahead.  Might be worth something one day soon, very
> soon.  Slight edit.  I'm going to get the whirlpool data, and we will find
> out if Whirlpower is right or wrong.  The proof is in the pudding.

---

O.K., here's a Haiku for ya:

Whirlpool has no gain.
Wobble, wobble, you can't tap.
Makes your song insane.

The smoke at last clears.
The foolish thoughts go away
and the air smells good.

Give up the bad song.
'Tho it's lasted for so long
it was always wrong.

A new day starts now.
The sun smiles as it rises
and we live again.

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 13:59:10 2000
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Prove that a flat space universe has a null time arrow...

>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:34:17 +1000
>
>In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:33:46 +0300:
>
> >
> >I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the 
>matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is 
>expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is 
>collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. When universe is flat, arrow of time 
>is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)
>[snip]
>If places exist in a flat universe where heat energy is converted into
>matter then the entropy of the universe as a whole can be zero, while
>increasing in the part where we live (and make our "laws").
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:01:56 2000
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Hi Thomas,

Did you take this seriously? Did you read my later posting on this? 

thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> Hamdi Ucar wrote
> 
> >I dont know what is his ( David Denard ) logic, but it is very
> >simple, huh! It is the matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow
> >is forward universe is expanding, entropy is positive.  When the
> >arrow is backward, universe is collapsing. and entropy is
> >decreasing. When universe is flat, arrow of time is screwed, entropy
> >is f'up. :)

> 
> Entropy is what the second law of thermodynamics is all about. 

Did I implied something different?

> If you
> place a hot body in contact with a cold body the result is two warm
> bodies. This works every time it is tried. That is why it is a law. 

May I have to say something like "Entropy caused by second law of thermodynamics" ?

> assume that even David agrees with this. My question is time a
> dimension which can go backwards and forwards, or is it a progression
> which can only go one way?

Arrow of time does not make much sense to me as I explained previously. 
Please take a look to "A compromised arrow of time" 
(http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0009139)

> 
> Thomas
> 

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:06:53 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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The winos on the street write better than that.  Better have another belt 
and try again.

The wobble is not tapped.  The frame dragging effect of the wobble is 
tapped.  That's the difference in Whirlpower and what all the "real" 
scientists have tried time and time again this century with a tornado type 
vortex.

Whirlpower is the difference in a tornado and a hurricane; big, very big, 
difference.

We better hope, if Whirlpower doesn't work, somebody comes up with 
something.  The air is not going to get clean the way you sing.

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
>Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:32:14 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > I told him those mushrooms would not give him the answer.  Just a dog
> > chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not gonna go in your
> > Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own way.  And I 
>did.
> >
> > Steve asks:
> > >These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the
> > >Whirlpool"?
> >
> > If anyone wants to go ahead.  Might be worth something one day soon, 
>very
> > soon.  Slight edit.  I'm going to get the whirlpool data, and we will 
>find
> > out if Whirlpower is right or wrong.  The proof is in the pudding.
>
>---
>
>O.K., here's a Haiku for ya:
>
>Whirlpool has no gain.
>Wobble, wobble, you can't tap.
>Makes your song insane.
>
>The smoke at last clears.
>The foolish thoughts go away
>and the air smells good.
>
>Give up the bad song.
>'Tho it's lasted for so long
>it was always wrong.
>
>A new day starts now.
>The sun smiles as it rises
>and we live again.
>
>---
>
>John Fields
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:17:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:09:39 PDT
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Flat space shows the faster than light speed is possible.  There is no curve 
the will build force the higher the speed.  They wanted curved space to be 
real so bad.  Then those saucers had to be figments of our imagination.  
NOT.

Many are for sure, but lightspeed is a now realized as a function of 
density, not a constant not a barrier.

David


>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
>Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:56:37 CDT
>
>Prove that a flat space universe has a null time arrow...
>
>>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
>>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:34:17 +1000
>>
>>In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:33:46 +0300:
>>
>> >
>> >I dont know what is his logic, but it is very simple, huh! It is the
>>matter of the "arrow of time". When the arrow is forward universe is
>>expanding, entropy is positive.  When the arrow is backward, universe is
>>collapsing. and entropy is decreasing. When universe is flat, arrow of 
>>time
>>is screwed, entropy is f'up. :)
>>[snip]
>>If places exist in a flat universe where heat energy is converted into
>>matter then the entropy of the universe as a whole can be zero, while
>>increasing in the part where we live (and make our "laws").
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>>
>
>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:27:32 2000
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Vorts

I'm trying to integrate the net force on an electron moving along a straight 
conductor through a uniform field...(induced current)

what has been giving me fits is that the conductor is rotating about an axis 
at right angles to the conductor...(spokes on a wheel)

there are two cases, when the centerline of the conductor passes through the 
axis...(relatively simple) and when it does not...(very difficult, the force 
along the conductor has to take into account the angle between the conductor 
and the direction of rotation)

I just want this for comparative purposes, so velocity, radius etc. can be 
considered as constants.

Please don't bring relativity or actual particle motion into this, I just 
want to compare the net induced currents.

I did these integrals last night, but I'm not very confident that I did it 
right... and no I don't have those results in front of me to give them to 
the list, but they were very interesting.

Thanx
Merlyn

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:27:33 2000
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From: "Susan J. Seddon" <Soojay compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel crisis in England
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Merlyn

<Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??>

It'll be monkey nuts compared with what us poor Brits are forced to hand
over.  The last stats. I saw reckoned that well over 70% of the pump price
went directly to the government as taxes.   You guys would be well into
your second civil war if they tried that stunt over there.

The blockading of refineries has more or less ended today but it will take
at least a week and then some to get all petrol stations fully re-stocked.

I need sympathy, I have had my stroppy silver-haired old mother from
Liverpool visiting for the last  three weeks and thought she'd have to stay
for another two or more if I couldn't get fuel to drive her back home.

- Soo
(all filled  jerry cans gratefully accepted)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 14:37:48 2000
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John Fields wrote:
> 
> Adam Cox wrote:
> >
> > Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??
> >
> > I seem to remember that it is somewhere around 30% of the actual price.
> 
> ---
> 
> Everything seems to be about 60% for us and 30% for U.S., no?
> 
> ---
> 
> John Fields

Quoting:

http://foxnews.com/world/091300/europe_fuel_riley.sml

 The cost of gasoline in Britain is the highest in Europe, $4.31 
 per gallon, and 74 percent of that cost is due to taxes.

 In the U.S., federal and state taxes account for only about 36 
 percent of the cost of a gallon of gas, Shanahan said. The 
 federal tax money goes into the general revenue and the 
 Highway Trust Fund which builds interstate highway and 
 bridges. 

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 15:58:45 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> The winos on the street write better than that.  Better have another belt
> and try again.
> 
> The wobble is not tapped.  The frame dragging effect of the wobble is
> tapped.  That's the difference in Whirlpower and what all the "real"
> scientists have tried time and time again this century with a tornado type
> vortex.
> 
> Whirlpower is the difference in a tornado and a hurricane; big, very big,
> difference.
> 
> We better hope, if Whirlpower doesn't work, somebody comes up with
> something.  The air is not going to get clean the way you sing.


---

So you have experience with winos on the street?  Why am I not
surprised?

And, you read my apology to the group and are trying to turn it around
and use it to discredit me.  Pretty lame, David. ( Well, you're
handicapped, (lame) and you like to use that as an excuse for your lack
of technical acumen, so I guess that's what I should have expected.
;^))  It was an apology to the group, for perhaps having upset their
sensibilities since I've never seen profanity used here before, but
certainly not an apology to _you_ for any reason.

You say that the wobble isn't tapped, yet you say the frame dragging
effect of the wobble _is_, as if there were no interaction between the
two.  If you expect to extract power from the effect and it's dependent
on the source, how can you reconcile that?  You can't, and you're
hanging on for dear life hoping someone will come along and save you. 
It ain't me,babe, but I suspect you'll be trying to take credit for a
priori knowledge of Higgs' insight, no matter what.

What makes you think that you and your theories are humanities' last
hope?  There are lots of folks out there who have no axe to grind who
are working silently and are better equipped than you are to try to take
a sad song and make it better. 


---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 18:07:36 2000
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Well John, we are going to find out very soon.  Now the Kaku and Company are 
backing Whirlpower the whirlpools will be built and tested in a scientific 
manner.  Can't see why anyone that has any knowledge of science would not be 
most interested is seeing whirlpools built and tested.

Kaku is no idiot.

The concept of whirlpower is no different really than the logic used in the 
past to try and tap a tornado type vortex.  If the vortex itself can remain 
undisturbed then the area around it, the toroid flow, can be tapped.  It has 
been tried, it failed, many times.  The toroid flow is part of the vortex.  
Trying to tap it "snuffs out" the action.   Michael posted the references, 
the "energy" is there.

Like I have said here many times, "that was like trying to throw a wet 
blanket on a fire and trying to dry the blanket out".

And about your apology, I am not letting up on you because you made no 
apology to me, even though you were cursing my words.  Hey, a drunk is a 
drunk, office style or street style, makes no difference.

David


>From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
>Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:53:33 -0500
>
>David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > The winos on the street write better than that.  Better have another 
>belt
> > and try again.
> >
> > The wobble is not tapped.  The frame dragging effect of the wobble is
> > tapped.  That's the difference in Whirlpower and what all the "real"
> > scientists have tried time and time again this century with a tornado 
>type
> > vortex.
> >
> > Whirlpower is the difference in a tornado and a hurricane; big, very 
>big,
> > difference.
> >
> > We better hope, if Whirlpower doesn't work, somebody comes up with
> > something.  The air is not going to get clean the way you sing.
>
>
>---
>
>So you have experience with winos on the street?  Why am I not
>surprised?
>
>And, you read my apology to the group and are trying to turn it around
>and use it to discredit me.  Pretty lame, David. ( Well, you're
>handicapped, (lame) and you like to use that as an excuse for your lack
>of technical acumen, so I guess that's what I should have expected.
>;^))  It was an apology to the group, for perhaps having upset their
>sensibilities since I've never seen profanity used here before, but
>certainly not an apology to _you_ for any reason.
>
>You say that the wobble isn't tapped, yet you say the frame dragging
>effect of the wobble _is_, as if there were no interaction between the
>two.  If you expect to extract power from the effect and it's dependent
>on the source, how can you reconcile that?  You can't, and you're
>hanging on for dear life hoping someone will come along and save you.
>It ain't me,babe, but I suspect you'll be trying to take credit for a
>priori knowledge of Higgs' insight, no matter what.
>
>What makes you think that you and your theories are humanities' last
>hope?  There are lots of folks out there who have no axe to grind who
>are working silently and are better equipped than you are to try to take
>a sad song and make it better.
>
>
>---
>
>John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 18:16:42 2000
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From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>On 13 Sep 2000, at 17:26, Lynn Kurtz wrote:


</color>>... A lone genius working in his field 

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> does not qualify as an "amateur". Amateurs are generally NOT the 

> ones making the great discoveries.

> 

> I am a mathematician and I cannot think of a single breakthrough in 

> the last 30 years made by an amateur, although I have seen 

> "proofs" of the (known to be impossible) angle trisection problem 

> by such people. This period has given rise to important 

> breakthroughs and new fields in mathematics such as chaos 

> theory, wavelet theory, and fractals as well as solutions of some of 

> the major historical unsolved problems such as the Bieberbach 

> Conjecture and Ferrnat's last theorem, to mention a few. None 

> were done by amateurs although the last is a famous 

> comtemporary example of a genius (Andrew Wiles) working alone 

> and in secret. Tell me about the breakthroughs made by the 

> amateurs using high school algebra.

> 

> I would wager that the situation is much the same in all of the 

> scientific fields. So here is my question to the group:

> 

> Can anyone in this group name a significant breakthrough in the 

> last 30 years in chemistry, physics, computers and computer 

> science, biotechnology, or ?? that was made by an amateur? 

> Remember, well educated people working in their fields don't count 

> as amateurs, whether or not they are "loners".

> 

> --Lynn

> 


</color>Mitch Jones responded:

 *****{The reason: within the primitive guild system of our "modern" 
world, the self-taught, uncredentialed individual is seldom 
employable in his field of interest due to his uncredentialed status, 
and, thus, is an "amateur" in the normal, and correct, sense of the 
term. --MJ}***


Me: My dictionary (Random House) gives "Amateur : inexperienced 
or unskilled in a particular activity" in my context". It says nothing 
about "uncredentialed". That is your straw man.


Jed Rothwell responded:


In computer software, up until 1990 or so, amateurs made important

breakthroughs. That is because computers were so new and 
unreliable that "computer science" was almost a contradiction in 
terms. A good example is the invention of the computer 
spreadsheet by Dan Bricklin and later Mitch Kapor. Bricklin worked 
with Frankson, who was a professional programmer, but I think 
Bricklin contributed many of the original ideas. A spreadsheet

may not seem like much in retrospect, but someone had do it the 
first time. Breakthroughs like Cobol or Pascal were more profound 
and complex, and I expect they could only have been made by 
professionals.


In hardware, Steve Wozniack started out as an amateur. I have 
heard that first Apple computers were masterpieces of elegant 
simplicity, which is what you expect from a amateur genius 
working on a tight budget.


- Jed<bigger><bigger>


<smaller><smaller>Me: Software is an example where an individual can contribute with 
relatively little training. However your spreadsheet examples are 
pretty weak since professionals were heavily involved and certainly 
the compilers and other development tools they used weren't 
developed by amateurs.


I am prepared to be wrong about Wozniak, but I think he had a 
degree in electrical engineering before the Apple computer. Didn't 
he later go back incognito for a business degree?


Mike Carrell responds:


<bigger><bigger>I<smaller><smaller>'ve had occasion to review the work of people in the 'new energy' 
field. I know of one person who shall remain nameless, who has a 
Ph.D. and has persisted for a number of years with a purported OU 
device. The problem is that is he completely out of his depth in 
measuring the performance of it, and is unable to understand or 
profit from the advice of various consultants who have come by. I 
am coming to the conclusion that in some cases, even a Ph.D. 
might qualify as an 'expert' only in the specific subject of his

thesis, but can fall into incompetence when removed one millimeter

therefrom....


Me: Of course. Expert in some subjects and amateur in others. 
Aren't we all? Who are you arguing with here?


Mike continues...


There is a hubris that develops which assumes that a familiar body 
of practice is complete, and no-one from outside one's academic 
community can make any breakthrough....


Me:  That is another crock. I am not *assuming* that amateurs can 
not make any breakthroughs, I am just observing that for the most 
part they don't.


Mike continues...

It is hubris to assume that an 'amateur' is 'uneducated, or 
'undisciplined even though many are. It is also hubris to assume 
that 'professionals' are objective, forward thinking and honest, even 
when one's turf is threatened.


Me: Are you trying to put words in my mouth? 'Uneducated' is 
pretty close to 'inexperienced and unskilled' in this context. I never 
said 'undisciplined'. Your last sentence is nothing more than a 
gratuitous insult, given that it has nothing to do with anything I 
wrote.


Me: (Conclusion) I'm done with this thread. I'm sure Jed and others 
can come up with isolated examples. This thread started because 
Dennard claimed all significant breakthroughs have come from 
amateurs. That is patently false. They aren't making the 
breakthroughs. I am still waiting for even one example in 
mathematics in the last 30 years.


--Lynn

<nofill>

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel crisis in England
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>Merlyn
>
><Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??>
>
>It'll be monkey nuts compared with what us poor Brits are forced to hand
>over.  The last stats. I saw reckoned that well over 70% of the pump price
>went directly to the government as taxes.   You guys would be well into
>your second civil war if they tried that stunt over there.

***{You are letting what America was blind you to what she has become. The
fact is, the typical "good American" is as utterly loathsome as was the
typical "good German" in the 1930's, from the standpoint of his willingness
to hear no evil, see no evil, and think no evil about the fascist horror
that stands astride his nation. In this supposed "land of the free," the
only protests that attract significant numbers are those which aim to spit
on our Constitution by further restricting our liberties. Indeed, based on
the present protests in Britain and the polls showing that 80 % of your
people support the goals of the protesters, I would say that the spirit of
1776 is far more alive there than it is here. --MJ}***

>
>The blockading of refineries has more or less ended today but it will take
>at least a week and then some to get all petrol stations fully re-stocked.
>
>I need sympathy, I have had my stroppy silver-haired old mother from
>Liverpool visiting for the last  three weeks and thought she'd have to stay
>for another two or more if I couldn't get fuel to drive her back home.
>
>- Soo
>(all filled  jerry cans gratefully accepted)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 18:47:17 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Thermodynamics
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:46:09 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Adam Cox's message of Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:56:37 CDT:

>Prove that a flat space universe has a null time arrow...
[snip]
Prove that the arrow of time is necessarily dependant upon entropy.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 14 19:11:29 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>Me: Software is an example where an individual can contribute with 
>relatively little training. However your spreadsheet examples are  pretty
>weak since professionals were heavily involved and certainly  the compilers
>and other development tools they used weren't  developed by amateurs.

Actually, around 1980 compilers and other systems tools for microcomputers
*were* developed by amateurs, including people I know, (and even to a very
small extent, me). The professionals did not take the micros seriously
enough to bother working on them. They left the field wide open, which is
why a college dropout math whiz who majored in playing poker is now the
richest man in the world.


>I am prepared to be wrong about Wozniak, but I think he had a  degree in
>electrical engineering before the Apple computer. Didn't he later go back
>incognito for a business degree?

No, he was a high school hacker. He was suspended from one college for
pranks, and he dropped out of two others, going for 2 or 3 years total, but
he got a high tech job with HP anyway. His first collaboration with Jobs
was to build "blue boxes" to rip off the phone company. Years later, after
he made a fortune, he went back to college to get a degree in electrical
engineering. That was not incognito. He now teaches elementary school, 5th
through 8th grade. (See www.woz.org)


>Me: (Conclusion) I'm done with this thread. I'm sure Jed and others  can
>come up with isolated examples.

No isolated! Major examples. Any book about the history of technology is
filled with similar examples. But you and Dennard have both overlooked a
key point. Many, perhaps most, major technological changes are brought
about by *outsiders*, not amateurs. By outsiders, I mean people who are
experts in some other field. The classic example is A. G. Bell, who
revolutionized telegraphy and communications because he understood sound,
even though he did not know much about electricity. There were thousands of
qualified experts in New York and Boston who could have quickly solved the
problems he wrestled with while inventing the telephone, but it never
occurred to them to address the problem, and he did not want to call on
them for help because he wanted to protect his intellectual property. Pons
and Fleischmann are not experts in nuclear physics (although they are
certainly not amateurs!) but they have revolutionized that field by making
a discovery in an area that no nuclear physicist would think to look. There
are dozens of examples like this in any history book. Experts in a field
seldom look outside it to find revolutionary or unexpected ways to
accomplish the tasks they specialize in.

In commerce, even the largest and most powerful corporations seldom last
more than 100 years, because they almost always ignore "disruptive"
innovations. The Baldwin steam locomotive company never tried to make a
Diesel locomotive. Data General and DEC could not be bothered to make
microcomputers. They left the field wide open to amateurs like Michael
Dell. The 16" hard disk makers ignored the 8" disks, and were shoved out of
business, and a few years later the 8" disk makers were blindsided by the
5" inch disks. As I have mentioned before, Clayton M. Christensen at the
Harvard Business School has written a book and a number of good articles
about this phenomenon.

The "outsider" phenomenon is common in technology and commerce. I do not
know as much about the history of science, but I suspect the same pattern
applies.

- Jed

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	Would would have to multiply by about  ???  
	1 atm = about 101,325 Pa
	1 bar = 1X 10 + positive Pa 
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> > Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
> > quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
> > It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
> >
> > What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that
> > got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an
> > "Normal" as in old fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient
> > 14.7psi etc
> >
> > HELP!!!
> 
> ***{I did a web search, and found the following:
> 
> "... the N term is an abbreviation of norm or normal  ... 'Normal', in this
> connection, means a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius and a pressure of
> 1.013 bar, the conditions at which one mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
> 22.413837 liters." [See
> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archivies/may99/926998893.Eg.r.html.]
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 

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Subject: Bar  pressure...and OGS  (other good stuff) Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
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Abbreviation :: Unit ::			OGS


  1 Pa =	1 Pascal = 1 Nm[-neg]2  N= Newton m = meter

  1 atm =1 Atmosphere = 101,325 Pa  ~ 14.7 pounds inch sq

  1 bar = where they sell AI, Artificial Intelligence AI= Vodka
	1 bar = 10 [+pos] 5 Pa ..about .. (see above)

	Torr From Evangelista Torricelli (GREAT name!) = 1mm Hg

	1 torr = 1 mm Hg = 133.3 Pa

	Rough or Low Vacuum 1 to 1 neg 3 torr
	Medium   10 neg 3 to 10 neg 5
	high Vacuum = 10 neg6 to 10 neg 8 [yow!.... suck your entire self
			out of your  own hand right through 
					your fingerprint !!!]  [!]

	UHV = less than 10 neg 9 

	


On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> > Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
> > quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
> > It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
> >
> > What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that
> > got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an
> > "Normal" as in old fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient
> > 14.7psi etc
> >
> > HELP!!!
> 
> ***{I did a web search, and found the following:
> 
> "... the N term is an abbreviation of norm or normal  ... 'Normal', in this
> connection, means a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius and a pressure of
> 1.013 bar, the conditions at which one mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
> 22.413837 liters." [See
> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may99/926998893.Eg.r.html.]
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 02:54:13 2000
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Subject: Re: Antigrav Levitation  Forces
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By devious means I find that the Magnetogravity Field (Bmg)at the Earth's Surface
to be ~30 Tesla (300,000 Gauss) thus the force on a 1.0 meter circumference
Current Loop encircling an area of  ~0.08 square meters to be ~ 1.10 pounds
with 1.0 amperes flowing through the loop.

However, since the force is a product of  n* Current * Area * Bmg, increasing the
current or diameter of the Current Loop or the number of turns (n),
(Terry calls it a "Hula Hoop") suggests a levitation force (n*I*Area* Bmg) of  
~ 207 newtons (~ 90 pounds) with a single 2.0 meter diameter Current Loop at 1.0 amperes. 

Thus a 10.0 meter diameter Current Loop   10.0 amperes Might possibly
see a levitation force of ~ 5 tons.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: The most famous "outsider"
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I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and innovation if I
did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, and
James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:

	Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
	extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was not,
	when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was very
	much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
	simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
	particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
	literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .

	The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the scientific
	instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
	world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set the
	improbability that an established or traditional engine man
	could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, in
	the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
	documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary ideas
	to an established technology. There have been many such examples
	since his day. . . .

	- "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164

In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of innovation
out of proportion to its population, financial power and social standing in
Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James Watt, John
Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of technology,
David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New System of
Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less incentive
to preserve existing institutions.

It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in Northern Europe
and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his Aryan
Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because it is
mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond the
pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. You
would think he would know his own history.

I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is part of a
thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.

Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd to
suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they were
outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html

AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS IN GEOLOGY

Nancy Nicholson
School of Interdisciplinary Studies
Western College Program
Miami University
Oxford, Ohio 45056
nicholnl muohio.edu
Background

Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been forced by
outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure of
disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift triggered by
accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide array of
academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively accounts of
these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter Alvarez. A
consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the role of
outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.

The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" or
"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported in that
data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence of sea
floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. And it
was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that had been
the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as advocates
of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. Within a
decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).

After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of Earth, in
spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an inability
explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond Earth. This
created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, an
opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear physicist, Luis
Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .

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I'm an outsider, an amateur, a nobody.  But I went to college for ten years, 
took a little physics, even have a graduate level course in cosmology.

My work is dream inspired.  I saw a whirlpool generating electricity in a 
dream.  I have worked on this all my life.  Amateur does not mean someone of 
lesserness.  Even though for sure I am not as "trained" as many are.  A 
monkey can be "trained".  And evidence is that what most have been taught is 
bunk anyway.

I see it as someone working on something because that is his interest, or 
her's.  Just means it is not a profession.  I don't have to answer to anyone 
paying me to do anything.

We are about to see the amateur Olympics.  Doesn't mean they are lesser.  
Just that they do not get paid to do it.  Actually these days they do, some 
of them, and that takes away from the reality of it all.

That's why I ask for no money.  I'm not going to waste my time chasing and 
kissing up to Mr. Money Bags.

This is real science, theorist propose, scientists dispose, the Scientific 
Method.  I propose that whirlpools can generate electricity.  I've shown 
whirlpools are unknown to science.  My challenge to provide whirlpool data 
is unmet.  Independence concurrance of my research has been found.  And this 
did not happen overnight.  There are 10,000 archived pages backing all this 
up.  WE have built three whirlpools, and by all acconts they are the first 
whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Not to be confused 
with a tornado type vortex.  And they match my theory predictions.  Look 
just like little hurricanes, just like little spiral galaxies.  Unexplained 
by current science.

And now the BBC is working on a shown featuring my work and Dr. Kaku's team 
is backing me up.  Yet you will find little on my work in the "NEW ENERGY" 
Community (even though I have contacted many sites) because my work is so 
advanced and so revolutionaly, yet it is SIMPLE, schoolchilden have written 
and say they understand exactly what I am saying.

And the rest is history.  Will be well known history if Whirlpower is 
proven.  Little known but important data on whirlpools if Whirlpower is 
disproven.  That's good science.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc

P.S. My website is already getting a new look.  Dr. Kaku's webmaster Michael 
Phillips says he will have the new one up very soon.


>From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: The most famous "outsider"
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
>
>I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and innovation if I
>did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, and
>James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:
>
>	Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
>	extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was not,
>	when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was very
>	much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
>	simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
>	particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
>	literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .
>
>	The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the scientific
>	instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
>	world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set the
>	improbability that an established or traditional engine man
>	could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, in
>	the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
>	documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary ideas
>	to an established technology. There have been many such examples
>	since his day. . . .
>
>	- "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164
>
>In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of innovation
>out of proportion to its population, financial power and social standing in
>Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James Watt, John
>Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of technology,
>David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New System of
>Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
>
>Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
>presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less incentive
>to preserve existing institutions.
>
>It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
>scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in Northern Europe
>and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his Aryan
>Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because it is
>mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond the
>pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. You
>would think he would know his own history.
>
>I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is part of a
>thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.
>
>Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd to
>suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they were
>outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.
>
>- Jed
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html
>
>AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS IN 
>GEOLOGY
>
>Nancy Nicholson
>School of Interdisciplinary Studies
>Western College Program
>Miami University
>Oxford, Ohio 45056
>nicholnl muohio.edu
>Background
>
>Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been forced by
>outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure of
>disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift triggered by
>accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide array of
>academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively accounts of
>these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter Alvarez. A
>consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the role of
>outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.
>
>The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" or
>"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
>educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported in that
>data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence of sea
>floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. And it
>was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that had been
>the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as advocates
>of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. Within a
>decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
>theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).
>
>After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of Earth, in
>spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
>resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an inability
>explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond Earth. This
>created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, an
>opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear physicist, Luis
>Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 10:28:07 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen delivery rates
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>	Would would have to multiply by about  ???
>	1 atm = about 101,325 Pa
>	1 bar = 1X 10 + positive Pa

***{I'm not sure what you are asking, John. What I glean from the material
which I quoted is that the term Nm^3 is short for "normal cubic meter" and
refers to a cubic meter of gas at 1 atm and zero degrees Celsius. If, for
example, the amount of hydrogen in a gas mixture is to be specified, one
might say something such as 1 liter per Nm^3. The idea is to indicate the
conditions of temperature and pressure to which the statement applies. Does
this answer your question? --MJ}***

>On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> > Vorts - can anyone help a steam driven engineer with explaination on a
>> > quoted delivery rate of an Electrolyser-
>> > It is quoted at " 1 Ltr per Nm3 "
>> >
>> > What is a "Nm3" ,I thought Capital alpha was a newton in force? whats that
>> > got to do with Volume? or has N crept in an
>> > "Normal" as in old fashioned NTP -Normal temp. and pressure ,i.e. Ambient
>> > 14.7psi etc
>> >
>> > HELP!!!
>>
>> ***{I did a web search, and found the following:
>>
>> "... the N term is an abbreviation of norm or normal  ... 'Normal', in this
>> connection, means a temperature of 0 degrees Celsius and a pressure of
>> 1.013 bar, the conditions at which one mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
>> 22.413837 liters." [See
>> http://www.madsci.org/posts/archivies/may99/926998893.Eg.r.html.]
>>
>> --Mitchell Jones}***
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 10:47:36 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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>
>
>Can anyone in this group name a significant breakthrough in the
>last 30 years in chemistry, physics, computers and computer
>science, biotechnology, or ?? that was made by an amateur?
>Remember, well educated people working in their fields don't count
>as amateurs, whether or not they are "loners".
>
>--Lynn

My friend was talking about inventions. What he said was that the 
most important inventions were made by individuals. He continued by 
saying that most of them were over 60 and had been thinking about the 
invention for some time. Hardly what you would consider amateurs. It 
would be interesting to review that research effort and look at their 
level of education in the field of the invention.

Lynn, since I know that you are going to be reading this post, I want 
to ask you  about hyperdimentional physics. Have you read Michio 
Kaku's  book on the subject? Hal Puthoff recommended a book, but I 
can't remember what the title of it was. The other source is what 
Richard Hoagland has posted on the Enterprise Mission's website.  I'm 
interested in a mathematician's opinion of their vision of the 
universe. Richard has promised a short course on hyperdimentional 
physics some night on Coast to Coast AM, those of you who are 
normally sleeping during the show can access it on RealAudio.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 11:00:10 2000
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Subject: Publish and Perish
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I am indebted to Charles Eicher <ceicher inav.net> for the following quote,
from an article in The Journal of the New York Academy of the Sciences.

"...With a flourish I brandished U.S. Army Technical Manual 3-216, Military
Biology and Biological Agents, and its companion, Military Chemistry and
Chemical Agents. Slipped into the latter volume were quite a number of
loose sheets, which on closer inspection were notable as "correction pages"
-- for instance, "page 26, 1.4, replace word before 'mix' (then) with "DO
NOT EVER'" -- which had been dutifully delivered weeks and months later to,
one imagined, the large hole in the ground where the previous reader had
been."


- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> I am indebted to Charles Eicher <ceicher inav.net> for the following quote,
> from an article in The Journal of the New York Academy of the Sciences.
> 
> "...With a flourish I brandished U.S. Army Technical Manual 3-216, Military
> Biology and Biological Agents, and its companion, Military Chemistry and
> Chemical Agents. Slipped into the latter volume were quite a number of
> loose sheets, which on closer inspection were notable as "correction pages"
> -- for instance, "page 26, 1.4, replace word before 'mix' (then) with "DO
> NOT EVER'" -- which had been dutifully delivered weeks and months later to,
> one imagined, the large hole in the ground where the previous reader had
> been."
> 
> - Jed


---

My favorites are the pages bearing the text "Intentionally left blank."

---

John Fields

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Sep 15, 2000
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:46:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 15 Sep 00   Washington, DC

UPDATE ON ROBERT PARK'S CONDITION.  Robert Park is recovering
from the world's most unlikely accident - a tree fell on him.  He
is out of intensive care but still convalescing at the hospital. 
He's using the time to test the Sharper Image Magnetic Eye Mask.

1. WEN HO LEE IS FREE AFTER NINE MONTHS IN JAIL: SUITS FOLLOW. 
To convict Lee, prosecutors had to prove that he intended to both
harm the United States and secure an advantage for a foreign
nation.  Their case evaporated over the last nine months, and two
weeks ago Judge Parker ruled that Lee should be released on bail. 
Prosecutors dropped 58 of the 59 charges, and Lee pled guilty to
the one remaining: mishandling nuclear secrets.  He was sentenced
to time served and will cooperate in an investigation into the
disappearance of the downloaded files.  The next phase: law suits
and recriminations.  Lee is suing the government for breech of
privacy, and Judicial Watch, on behalf of former DOE Counter-
Intelligence Director Notra Trulock, is suing Lee for defamation
of character.  This week, Judge Parker scolded Justice Department
and DOE officials for their conduct of the case.  President
Clinton said that he, too, was "quite troubled" by their actions.

2. DOE: THE FALL OFFENSIVE.  With DOE Science caught in a vise
between water projects and weapons programs, Senate and House
advocates are now circulating bi-partisan letters to their 
leadership expressing "strong support for the Office of Science"
and urging that FY 2001 funds "be provided at no less than the
President's requested level of $3.16 billion and more if at all
possible."  To date, 16 senators and 75 representatives have
signed.  There is still time for APS members to contact their own
members of Congress (www.aps.org/public_affairs/action/#update).

3. REFORM PARTY RESULTS: BUCHANAN DEFEATS HAGELIN.  The Federal
Election Commission ruled out physicist John Hagelin as the
Reform Party's presidential candidate, awarding Pat Buchanan the
$12.6 million in federal funds.  Hagelin may be out officially,
but the odds of his becoming President haven't changed.

4. APS RESULTS: MYRIAM SARACHIK ELECTED VICE PRESIDENT.  CCNY
Distinguished Professor Myriam Sarachik, a condensed matter
physicist, won the election leading to the APS presidency in two
years.  She will be the third woman to serve in that office.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily share by the APS, but they should be.)
This week's WN was written by Michael Lubell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 14:22:06 2000
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Subject: Re: Fuel crisis in England
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:54:54 +0100
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Jed wondered about the petrol shenanigans in England. They actually started
in France where the French truckers blockaded ports etc in protest about the
relatively high levels of tax that Europeans pay on fuel. The French
government sort of caved in to them so the English tried it too, in a much
more subdued way. Most of the recent increase in fuel price has actually
been because of the steep rise in the price of crude oil which of course
hasn't got too much to do with our government but more to do with OPEC.
    One calculation shows that the costs of, and the environmental damage
caused by, motor vehicles in Britain are about 46 billion annually but that
the duty on fuel raises only 26 billion, so even our inflated levels of tax
don't really "cut the mustard"

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 14:33:42 2000
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September 15, 2,000

Vortex,

Although not in the area of nuts and bolts of physival innovation, I would have
to bring forth here a suspected retard whose specialty was in mathmatics.
Definitely and outsider.
He was a junior patent official in a Swiss Parent Office, the author of E=MC2 ---
Albert Einstein.

-AK-


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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:35:30 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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 (conservtion)
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Hi All,

I will try to show a photon have inertia and inertia is direct consequence of energy conservation.

1) When a photon is observed from a different inertial reference of frame would have different frequency and energy by the consequence of SR.

2) The energy difference should be equal the energy needed to accelerate a mass of energy equivalent of the photon to a velocity equal to difference of reference of frames.

Ok, that's it. If this is correct, one dont need to the matter objects or to particles or quantum predictions to explain inertia.



3) One can also directly measure inertia of a photon, from reflecting it from a mirror. If a mirror moving respect to inertial frame of photon is initiated or observed, reflected photon would have different frequency. Force (momentum) caused by the bounci
ng photon from moving mirror would be different from a non moving mirror, according (1).

4) The difference of forces or transfer of energy from mirror to photon can be interpreted same as replacing the photon by a tennis ball and the mirror by the racket. Explicitely, racket transfer energy to the ball by accelating it, a process requiring th
e inertia.

So using photons, I attempted to avoid a circularity may be caused to explain inertia by
classical kinetic energy formula e = 1/2mv^2 or SR replacement.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 14:41:45 2000
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Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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Lynn wrote:

<snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant 
breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>

...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people 
keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?

Reminds me of that scene in Rob Reiner's "Stand By Me" where the 
least mature kid in the group tries to start a debate about the 
differences between the Disney cartoon dog characters Goofy and 
Pluto. Even in the movie the other kids didn't fall for it. Here I 
suppose it would become a huge thread.

So having brought this up, Mitchell (ahem<g>), would you like to 
start off with a couple of pages on how it could be that Goofy was an 
anthropomorphic humanoid dog and Pluto just a regular canine?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: The most famous "outsider"
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AK writes:
>Although not in the area of nuts and bolts of physival innovation, I would have
>to bring forth here a suspected retard whose specialty was in mathmatics.
>Definitely and outsider.
>He was a junior patent official in a Swiss Parent Office, the author of
E=MC2 ---
>Albert Einstein.
>
>-AK-

Albert was suspected of being retarded because he was a genius, you are
correct however, as we learned earlier, he was not the author of the E=MC2
equation.  Sir Heaviside authored that in his mathmatical treatise on
electrodynamics prior to Albert Einstein coming on the scene.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 15:04:45 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Lynn wrote:
> 
> <snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
> breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
> 
> ...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
> keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?

This is beause vortex contributors prefer easy brain exercises or not exercising at all.
Also, dont underestimate kind of entertaining value of these debates :)

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 15:13:28 2000
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Even better, because Albert had it right about the cosmological constant to 
start off with.  The flat space teams say so now too, as posted.  I think 
this thread defines where the pure nonsense is and where it has been coming 
from all along.


>From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The most famous "outsider"
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:52:14 -0400
>
>AK writes:
> >Although not in the area of nuts and bolts of physival innovation, I 
>would have
> >to bring forth here a suspected retard whose specialty was in mathmatics.
> >Definitely and outsider.
> >He was a junior patent official in a Swiss Parent Office, the author of
>E=MC2 ---
> >Albert Einstein.
> >
> >-AK-
>
>Albert was suspected of being retarded because he was a genius, you are
>correct however, as we learned earlier, he was not the author of the E=MC2
>equation.  Sir Heaviside authored that in his mathmatical treatise on
>electrodynamics prior to Albert Einstein coming on the scene.
>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 15:23:12 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs

Hamdi wrote:
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > 
> > Lynn wrote:
> > 
> > <snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
> > breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
> > 
> > ...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
> > keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?
> 
> This is because vortex contributors prefer easy brain exercises or not exercising at all.
> Also, dont underestimate kind of entertaining value of these debates :)

Good one, Hamdi. :-)

BTW. One of the most important inventions by an amateur (in the last 30 years)
is the air/oxygen separator in your water-cooled engine cooling system, to prevent
corrosion.

A mechanic working for a large trucking company in Phoenix, Arizona came up
with it, and about every water-cooled engine in the world is now equipped with it.

He made millions, and put most of the radiator shops out of business.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 15:31:37 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Fuel crisis in England
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Nick writes:
>Jed wondered about the petrol shenanigans in England. They actually started
>in France where the French truckers blockaded ports etc in protest about the
>relatively high levels of tax that Europeans pay on fuel. The French
>government sort of caved in to them so the English tried it too, in a much
>more subdued way. Most of the recent increase in fuel price has actually
>been because of the steep rise in the price of crude oil which of course
>hasn't got too much to do with our government but more to do with OPEC.

It doesn't take too much in the way of math skills Rick, to figure out that
with a nearly 80% tax on fuel that the British tax office profited far more
from the rise in crude oil than the sellers.  Pointing the finger at the
mid-East doesn't solve any problems, nor does it make peace or friends.  But
maybe that was the point in the first place, eh?  Your country is a major
arms supplier to just about everyone.  The same could be said here of
course, which is why it looks like the investigation that Gore promised
resulting from the opportunistic price gouging charges probably will go the
way of the rest of his vaporous rhetoric - into the ever denser methane pond
that we call our atmosphere.

>    One calculation shows that the costs of, and the environmental damage
>caused by, motor vehicles in Britain are about 46 billion annually but that
>the duty on fuel raises only 26 billion, so even our inflated levels of tax
>don't really "cut the mustard"
>
>Nick Palmer

The damage in Europe in general would have been much less severe if they had
banned leaded gasoline sooner.  Most of Europe waited a decade after the US
to do this, but Scotland for example, just got rid it of within the last
year.  That is nearly 30 years later!  Your oil companies seem to be run by
even more retarded folks than ours.  Perhaps it was the lead, but
nonetheless, it is no wonder the people are rioting over there.  Instead of
exhorting the subdued, "dead cool Brit" nature of the English peoples'
reaction to the situation, I would take advantage of the opportunity to
enrage the public there enough to overthrow the BP-Amoco aristocracy and
their hand-picked, good ole boy government, and demand loudly that the
manufacturing community start the production of non-polluting,
decentralized, not for obscene profit technologies.

The days of ruling by arms and oil are over.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 15:50:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
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How does this work? and where is it in the auto?
Hank

On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
> 
> Hamdi wrote:
> > 
> > Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > > 
> > > Lynn wrote:
> > > 
> > > <snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
> > > breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
> > > 
> > > ...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
> > > keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?
> > 
> > This is because vortex contributors prefer easy brain exercises or not exercising at all.
> > Also, dont underestimate kind of entertaining value of these debates :)
> 
> Good one, Hamdi. :-)
> 
> BTW. One of the most important inventions by an amateur (in the last 30 years)
> is the air/oxygen separator in your water-cooled engine cooling system, to prevent
> corrosion.
> 
> A mechanic working for a large trucking company in Phoenix, Arizona came up
> with it, and about every water-cooled engine in the world is now equipped with it.
> 
> He made millions, and put most of the radiator shops out of business.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> > 
> > hamdi ucar
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 16:26:38 2000
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> Even better, because Albert had it right about the cosmological constant to
> start off with.  The flat space teams say so now too, as posted.  I think
> this thread defines where the pure nonsense is and where it has been coming
> from all along.


---

Yes, David, from your camp.

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

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----- Original Message -----
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs

Hank wrote:


> How does this work? and where is it in the auto?

It purges the air from the water when it gets hot and builds up pressure,
out around the radiator pressure cap through a tube into the plastic reservior next to the
radiator.
Simple but effective.

Frederick

> Hank
>
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
> >
> > Hamdi wrote:
> > >
> > > Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Lynn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
> > > > breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
> > > >
> > > > ...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
> > > > keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?
> > >
> > > This is because vortex contributors prefer easy brain exercises or not exercising at all.
> > > Also, dont underestimate kind of entertaining value of these debates :)
> >
> > Good one, Hamdi. :-)
> >
> > BTW. One of the most important inventions by an amateur (in the last 30 years)
> > is the air/oxygen separator in your water-cooled engine cooling system, to prevent
> > corrosion.
> >
> > A mechanic working for a large trucking company in Phoenix, Arizona came up
> > with it, and about every water-cooled engine in the world is now equipped with it.
> >
> > He made millions, and put most of the radiator shops out of business.
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> > >
> > > hamdi ucar
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 17:15:01 2000
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Here is a picture of it, Hank.

 http://www.autoshop-online.com/auto101/cooling1.html

I haven't had to have a radiator "rodded out" since it came
on the market.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 17:53:08 2000
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"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane
MJ

"Florek, Steven" wrote:

> David Dennard wrote:
>
> >I told him those mushrooms would not given him the
> >answer.  Just a dog chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not
> >gonna go in your Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own
>
> >way.  And I did.
>
> These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the
> Whirlpool"?
>
> -Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 18:06:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Fuel crisis in England
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diesel fuel is more like 60% U.S. and 30%us
MJ

John Fields wrote:

> Adam Cox wrote:
> >
> > Anybody looked lately at the TOTAL tax paid on gas here in the U.S.??
> >
> > I seem to remember that it is somewhere around 30% of the actual price.
>
> ---
>
> Everything seems to be about 60% for us and 30% for U.S., no?
>
> ---
>
> John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 18:09:55 2000
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From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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I looked at your drawing of the "whirlpower" device and it looks much more like
a toroid than a whirlpool. Stream of water in doughnut shape rotating in a
circular fashion around center and also rotating around it's own "loop". Why not
call it a "water toroid"?
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> The winos on the street write better than that.  Better have another belt
> and try again.
>
> The wobble is not tapped.  The frame dragging effect of the wobble is
> tapped.  That's the difference in Whirlpower and what all the "real"
> scientists have tried time and time again this century with a tornado type
> vortex.
>
> Whirlpower is the difference in a tornado and a hurricane; big, very big,
> difference.
>
> We better hope, if Whirlpower doesn't work, somebody comes up with
> something.  The air is not going to get clean the way you sing.
>
> David
>
> >From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
> >Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:32:14 -0500
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > I told him those mushrooms would not give him the answer.  Just a dog
> > > chasing it's tail.  Been there, done that.  Nope, not gonna go in your
> > > Faraday Cage so you can mess with my mind.  I'll go my own way.  And I
> >did.
> > >
> > > Steve asks:
> > > >These would make good song lyrics.  Has anyone written "The Song of the
> > > >Whirlpool"?
> > >
> > > If anyone wants to go ahead.  Might be worth something one day soon,
> >very
> > > soon.  Slight edit.  I'm going to get the whirlpool data, and we will
> >find
> > > out if Whirlpower is right or wrong.  The proof is in the pudding.
> >
> >---
> >
> >O.K., here's a Haiku for ya:
> >
> >Whirlpool has no gain.
> >Wobble, wobble, you can't tap.
> >Makes your song insane.
> >
> >The smoke at last clears.
> >The foolish thoughts go away
> >and the air smells good.
> >
> >Give up the bad song.
> >'Tho it's lasted for so long
> >it was always wrong.
> >
> >A new day starts now.
> >The sun smiles as it rises
> >and we live again.
> >
> >---
> >
> >John Fields
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 18:35:22 2000
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Hi David,
   I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have spoken with him
on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of this post.If
indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to be the
first to congratulate you.
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> I'm an outsider, an amateur, a nobody.  But I went to college for ten years,
> took a little physics, even have a graduate level course in cosmology.
>
> My work is dream inspired.  I saw a whirlpool generating electricity in a
> dream.  I have worked on this all my life.  Amateur does not mean someone of
> lesserness.  Even though for sure I am not as "trained" as many are.  A
> monkey can be "trained".  And evidence is that what most have been taught is
> bunk anyway.
>
> I see it as someone working on something because that is his interest, or
> her's.  Just means it is not a profession.  I don't have to answer to anyone
> paying me to do anything.
>
> We are about to see the amateur Olympics.  Doesn't mean they are lesser.
> Just that they do not get paid to do it.  Actually these days they do, some
> of them, and that takes away from the reality of it all.
>
> That's why I ask for no money.  I'm not going to waste my time chasing and
> kissing up to Mr. Money Bags.
>
> This is real science, theorist propose, scientists dispose, the Scientific
> Method.  I propose that whirlpools can generate electricity.  I've shown
> whirlpools are unknown to science.  My challenge to provide whirlpool data
> is unmet.  Independence concurrance of my research has been found.  And this
> did not happen overnight.  There are 10,000 archived pages backing all this
> up.  WE have built three whirlpools, and by all acconts they are the first
> whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Not to be confused
> with a tornado type vortex.  And they match my theory predictions.  Look
> just like little hurricanes, just like little spiral galaxies.  Unexplained
> by current science.
>
> And now the BBC is working on a shown featuring my work and Dr. Kaku's team
> is backing me up.  Yet you will find little on my work in the "NEW ENERGY"
> Community (even though I have contacted many sites) because my work is so
> advanced and so revolutionaly, yet it is SIMPLE, schoolchilden have written
> and say they understand exactly what I am saying.
>
> And the rest is history.  Will be well known history if Whirlpower is
> proven.  Little known but important data on whirlpools if Whirlpower is
> disproven.  That's good science.
>
> David Dennard
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
> P.S. My website is already getting a new look.  Dr. Kaku's webmaster Michael
> Phillips says he will have the new one up very soon.
>
> >From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> >Subject: The most famous "outsider"
> >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
> >
> >I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and innovation if I
> >did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, and
> >James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:
> >
> >       Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
> >       extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was not,
> >       when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was very
> >       much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
> >       simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
> >       particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
> >       literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .
> >
> >       The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the scientific
> >       instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
> >       world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set the
> >       improbability that an established or traditional engine man
> >       could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, in
> >       the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
> >       documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary ideas
> >       to an established technology. There have been many such examples
> >       since his day. . . .
> >
> >       - "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164
> >
> >In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of innovation
> >out of proportion to its population, financial power and social standing in
> >Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James Watt, John
> >Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of technology,
> >David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New System of
> >Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
> >
> >Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
> >presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less incentive
> >to preserve existing institutions.
> >
> >It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
> >scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in Northern Europe
> >and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his Aryan
> >Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because it is
> >mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond the
> >pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. You
> >would think he would know his own history.
> >
> >I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is part of a
> >thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.
> >
> >Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd to
> >suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they were
> >outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.
> >
> >- Jed
> >
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> >
> >http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html
> >
> >AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS IN
> >GEOLOGY
> >
> >Nancy Nicholson
> >School of Interdisciplinary Studies
> >Western College Program
> >Miami University
> >Oxford, Ohio 45056
> >nicholnl muohio.edu
> >Background
> >
> >Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been forced by
> >outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure of
> >disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift triggered by
> >accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide array of
> >academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively accounts of
> >these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter Alvarez. A
> >consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the role of
> >outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.
> >
> >The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" or
> >"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
> >educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported in that
> >data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence of sea
> >floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. And it
> >was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that had been
> >the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as advocates
> >of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. Within a
> >decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
> >theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).
> >
> >After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of Earth, in
> >spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
> >resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an inability
> >explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond Earth. This
> >created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, an
> >opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear physicist, Luis
> >Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 19:14:16 2000
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Mike Johnston writes:

>I looked at your drawing of the "whirlpower" device and it looks much more 
>like a toroid than a whirlpool. Stream of water in doughnut shape rotating 
>in a circular fashion around center and also rotating around it's own 
>"loop". Why not call it a "water toroid"?

I'd be interested in what your definition of a whirlpool is.

http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html

That's a whirlpool.

A whirlpool is not a tornado type vortex.

Whirlpower uses the whirlpool and a feedback loop.  What I call, the 
"compound vortex".  It may work with out a feedback loop, but I figure that 
will make the best biggest most powerful whirlpool possible.

Below is a bit on the anatomy.  I think the reason Dr. Kaku's team is now 
backing Whirlpower is because in Strings Theory the torus donut is also 
shown just under the lip of the tornado type vortex.  Michael is working up 
full new graphics of Whirlpower (no charge) and my whirlpool anatomy.  They 
say it a go for the TOE.  Still time for anyone to build that whirlpool, get 
the photos and be the first to do so ever in all recorded history.  Given to 
you freely on a silver platter.  What more could any "real" scientist ask 
for?  Believe me, when the new website goes up, whirlpools are going to 
start coming out of the woodwork.

David

Anatomy of a Whirlpool.

Here is the anatomy of a whirlpool compared to a tornado type vortex.  This 
gives a clue to why some can't see the difference.

The toroid flow (') extends into the water surrounding the vortex opening.
The torus donut (") is tiney is a tornado type vortex just under the upper 
lip.

        __      __
         "\    /"
        <' \  / '>
            \/


The torus donut (") only appears large in the whirlpool and has a slight 
inward spin.



____________E______________     ________________E_____________
            >              \   /               <
                         <' \ / '>
     ^      "      v         \          v      "      ^

            <                                   >

The energy spiral (E) is the dual radial arm pattern of the whirlpool due to 
the frame dragging wobble effect.

A gapping, high speed, tornado type vortex can have a similar appearance.


       ____                                         ____
        "  ---                                   ---  "
              ''''''....              ....''''''
                        ''''\    /''''
                   <'        \  /        '>
                              \/
                               \
                               /

This toroid flow (') has a very similar appearance and donut shape to the 
torus donut (") in a whirlpool but in a gapping high speed tornado type 
vortex the torus donut is still very small just under the upper lip of the 
vortex.  The torus donut is about the dual radial arm pattern on the 
horizontal and only apppears large in a whirlpool.

The above gapping tornado type vortex is like the toilet flusher, multiplied 
input, corkscrew, Russell, Schaugerger, and a host of others.  A toilet 
flusher is not a whirlpool.

This is the difference in Whirlpower and all previous vortex
science.  And in a whirlpool the tornado central vortex does not even have 
to open for the whirlpool to be dragging a good size torus donut.  Many 
large river eddies form without opening the central tornado type vortex.  Of 
course the bigger the better the more powerful.  But tornado type vortex 
science is not Whirlpower science.  The big debate has been an attempt to 
say a tornado is the same thing as a hurricane, that Whirlpower science is 
the same thing as Schauberger, Russell, ect. science.  I have always said no 
it is not, very different.


_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 19:16:43 2000
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His webmaster Michael Phillips is redoing the Whirlpower site right now.  
"Great potential, let's make it happen", his exact words.  He says he is 
Kaku's good friend.  And he called me personnaly on the telephone.  I don't 
think it is a hoax.

Email address match up.


>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The most famous "outsider"
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:41:04 -0400
>
>Hi David,
>    I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have spoken 
>with him
>on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of this 
>post.If
>indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to be 
>the
>first to congratulate you.
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > I'm an outsider, an amateur, a nobody.  But I went to college for ten 
>years,
> > took a little physics, even have a graduate level course in cosmology.
> >
> > My work is dream inspired.  I saw a whirlpool generating electricity in 
>a
> > dream.  I have worked on this all my life.  Amateur does not mean 
>someone of
> > lesserness.  Even though for sure I am not as "trained" as many are.  A
> > monkey can be "trained".  And evidence is that what most have been 
>taught is
> > bunk anyway.
> >
> > I see it as someone working on something because that is his interest, 
>or
> > her's.  Just means it is not a profession.  I don't have to answer to 
>anyone
> > paying me to do anything.
> >
> > We are about to see the amateur Olympics.  Doesn't mean they are lesser.
> > Just that they do not get paid to do it.  Actually these days they do, 
>some
> > of them, and that takes away from the reality of it all.
> >
> > That's why I ask for no money.  I'm not going to waste my time chasing 
>and
> > kissing up to Mr. Money Bags.
> >
> > This is real science, theorist propose, scientists dispose, the 
>Scientific
> > Method.  I propose that whirlpools can generate electricity.  I've shown
> > whirlpools are unknown to science.  My challenge to provide whirlpool 
>data
> > is unmet.  Independence concurrance of my research has been found.  And 
>this
> > did not happen overnight.  There are 10,000 archived pages backing all 
>this
> > up.  WE have built three whirlpools, and by all acconts they are the 
>first
> > whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Not to be 
>confused
> > with a tornado type vortex.  And they match my theory predictions.  Look
> > just like little hurricanes, just like little spiral galaxies.  
>Unexplained
> > by current science.
> >
> > And now the BBC is working on a shown featuring my work and Dr. Kaku's 
>team
> > is backing me up.  Yet you will find little on my work in the "NEW 
>ENERGY"
> > Community (even though I have contacted many sites) because my work is 
>so
> > advanced and so revolutionaly, yet it is SIMPLE, schoolchilden have 
>written
> > and say they understand exactly what I am saying.
> >
> > And the rest is history.  Will be well known history if Whirlpower is
> > proven.  Little known but important data on whirlpools if Whirlpower is
> > disproven.  That's good science.
> >
> > David Dennard
> > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> >
> > P.S. My website is already getting a new look.  Dr. Kaku's webmaster 
>Michael
> > Phillips says he will have the new one up very soon.
> >
> > >From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > >Subject: The most famous "outsider"
> > >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
> > >
> > >I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and innovation if 
>I
> > >did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, and
> > >James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:
> > >
> > >       Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
> > >       extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was not,
> > >       when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was very
> > >       much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
> > >       simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
> > >       particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
> > >       literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .
> > >
> > >       The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the scientific
> > >       instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
> > >       world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set the
> > >       improbability that an established or traditional engine man
> > >       could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, in
> > >       the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
> > >       documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary ideas
> > >       to an established technology. There have been many such examples
> > >       since his day. . . .
> > >
> > >       - "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164
> > >
> > >In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of 
>innovation
> > >out of proportion to its population, financial power and social 
>standing in
> > >Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James Watt, 
>John
> > >Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of 
>technology,
> > >David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New System 
>of
> > >Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
> > >
> > >Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
> > >presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less 
>incentive
> > >to preserve existing institutions.
> > >
> > >It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
> > >scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in Northern 
>Europe
> > >and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his Aryan
> > >Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because it 
>is
> > >mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond the
> > >pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. You
> > >would think he would know his own history.
> > >
> > >I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is part 
>of a
> > >thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.
> > >
> > >Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd to
> > >suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they 
>were
> > >outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.
> > >
> > >- Jed
> > >
> > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html
> > >
> > >AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS IN
> > >GEOLOGY
> > >
> > >Nancy Nicholson
> > >School of Interdisciplinary Studies
> > >Western College Program
> > >Miami University
> > >Oxford, Ohio 45056
> > >nicholnl muohio.edu
> > >Background
> > >
> > >Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been forced 
>by
> > >outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure of
> > >disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift triggered by
> > >accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide array of
> > >academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively 
>accounts of
> > >these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter Alvarez. 
>A
> > >consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the role 
>of
> > >outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.
> > >
> > >The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" or
> > >"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
> > >educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported in 
>that
> > >data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence of 
>sea
> > >floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. And 
>it
> > >was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that had 
>been
> > >the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as 
>advocates
> > >of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. Within 
>a
> > >decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
> > >theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).
> > >
> > >After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of Earth, 
>in
> > >spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
> > >resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an inability
> > >explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond Earth. 
>This
> > >created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, an
> > >opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear physicist, 
>Luis
> > >Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .
> > >
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 19:45:49 2000
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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:29:05 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
Resent-Message-ID: <"pj5Ef1.0.6_1.fsjmv" mx1>
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>Lynn wrote:
>
><snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
>breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
>
>...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
>keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?
>
>Reminds me of that scene in Rob Reiner's "Stand By Me" where the
>least mature kid in the group tries to start a debate about the
>differences between the Disney cartoon dog characters Goofy and
>Pluto. Even in the movie the other kids didn't fall for it. Here I
>suppose it would become a huge thread.
>
>So having brought this up, Mitchell (ahem<g>), would you like to
>start off with a couple of pages on how it could be that Goofy was an
>anthropomorphic humanoid dog and Pluto just a regular canine?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

***{I didn't bring it up. Lynn started this thread to pick a nit with
Dennard. My sole post in it (prior to this one) was a response to Lynn's
odd definition of "amateur." (He subsequently found a dictionary with a
usage--probably the 10th alternate--that he thought supported his
silliness, but the primary usage in the three dictionaries I looked in
treats "amateur" as the antonym of "professional"--which means: if you
aren't being paid for your work in a field, you are an "amateur" in that
field. Result: most self-taught, uncredentialed individuals, irrespective
of their technical competence, are properly classified as amateurs, because
our "modern" guild system renders them unemployable in their areas of
expertise.) As for Dennard, I seldom read his stuff, because his weak
technical background renders most of his comments nonsensical. He needs to
learn some basic physics, but he won't do it, so dealing with him is a
waste of time. --MJ}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 20:33:41 2000
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Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:32:35 PDT
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How little he knows.  Florek called it long ago, "head in the sand".  
Ingnorance abounds on this list.


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Breakthroughs by amateurs
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:29:05 -0500
>
> >Lynn wrote:
> >
> ><snip> This thread started because  Dennard claimed all significant
> >breakthroughs have come from  amateurs. That is patently false. <snip>
> >
> >...as are practically ALL assertions made by Dennard. Why do people
> >keep trying to *debate* pure nonsense?
> >
> >Reminds me of that scene in Rob Reiner's "Stand By Me" where the
> >least mature kid in the group tries to start a debate about the
> >differences between the Disney cartoon dog characters Goofy and
> >Pluto. Even in the movie the other kids didn't fall for it. Here I
> >suppose it would become a huge thread.
> >
> >So having brought this up, Mitchell (ahem<g>), would you like to
> >start off with a couple of pages on how it could be that Goofy was an
> >anthropomorphic humanoid dog and Pluto just a regular canine?
> >
> >- Rick Monteverde
> >Honolulu, HI
>
>***{I didn't bring it up. Lynn started this thread to pick a nit with
>Dennard. My sole post in it (prior to this one) was a response to Lynn's
>odd definition of "amateur." (He subsequently found a dictionary with a
>usage--probably the 10th alternate--that he thought supported his
>silliness, but the primary usage in the three dictionaries I looked in
>treats "amateur" as the antonym of "professional"--which means: if you
>aren't being paid for your work in a field, you are an "amateur" in that
>field. Result: most self-taught, uncredentialed individuals, irrespective
>of their technical competence, are properly classified as amateurs, because
>our "modern" guild system renders them unemployable in their areas of
>expertise.) As for Dennard, I seldom read his stuff, because his weak
>technical background renders most of his comments nonsensical. He needs to
>learn some basic physics, but he won't do it, so dealing with him is a
>waste of time. --MJ}***
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 22:37:55 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: inertia is a consequence of energy conservation
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hamdi wrote:

>I will try to show a photon have inertia and inertia is direct consequence 
>of energy conservation.
>
>1) When a photon is observed from a different inertial reference of frame 
>would have different frequency and energy by the consequence of SR.
>
>2) The energy difference should be equal the energy needed to accelerate a 
>mass of energy equivalent of the photon to a velocity equal to difference 
>of reference of frames.

I see a problem:  

I view a photon from a frame moving towards the source of the photon.  The
photon is blue-shifted...i.e. increased in energy.  OK, we can try to set
that equal to (1/2)mv^2, where m is the photon effective mass.

But when I view the same photon from a frame moving AWAY from the source of
the photon, I see it red shifted....i.e. decreased in energy.  How can I
set that negative energy equal to (1/2)mv^2, which is always positive?





Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 15 22:57:28 2000
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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Force on an electron
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--- Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to integrate the net force on an electron moving along a
> straight 
> conductor through a uniform field...(induced current)
> 
> what has been giving me fits is that the conductor is rotating about an
> axis 
> at right angles to the conductor...(spokes on a wheel)
> 
> there are two cases, when the centerline of the conductor passes through
> the 
> axis...(relatively simple) and when it does not...(very difficult, the
> force 
> along the conductor has to take into account the angle between the
> conductor 
> and the direction of rotation)
> 
> I just want this for comparative purposes, so velocity, radius etc. can
> be 
> considered as constants.

You don't state, but I presume you mean electric force, qE, and that you
want to integrate between two points along some path, probably one of the
conducting spokes you mention. The integral will give you force times
distance or energy. If you integrate E (without the charge q) along the
path you will get electric potential difference, whose unit is the volt.
In this case the integral you want is (using S for the integral sign) 
S E cos(alpha) ds, where ds is incremental distance along the path, and
alpha is the angle between ds and E.

At this point your needs get confused, because "uniform field" and "induced
current" have no obvious relationship to each other. Let me guess that you
mean a uniform electric field that has been produced by induction. Let me
further guess that you really mean a radial electric field, E_r, of
constant magnitude pointing out from (or in to) your rotation axis. Then 
 cos(alpha) ds = dr, and your integral simplifies to 
 S E_r dr = E_r times delta r (the outer radius minus the inner radius).
It does not depend on the rotation.

However, since the context of your question is suggestive of a homopolar
generator, let me guess that your E_r is really to be induced by rotation
through a uniform magnetic field B oriented along the rotation axis. If so,
then the magnitude of E_r is actually not constant, because the local E_r
depends on the local velocity, omega r, which varies linearly with radius.
Here omega is the rotation rate in radians/s = 2 pi times
(revolutions/sec). Now we have E_r = omega r B, and 
 S E ds = S E_r dr = S (omega B) r dr 
   = (omega B)[(outer radius}^2 - (inner radius)^2]/2.

All my equations are in mks (SI) units: E in V/m, B in T (1 tesla = 10,000
gauss), radius in m, omega in rad/s.

If you want energy instead of electric potential, multiply my integrals by
the charge of an electron, 1.6x10^(-19) coulomb. The SI unit of energy is
the joule.










=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 00:22:34 2000
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From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <jplentin club-internet.fr>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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Mitch wrote

>I assume that your pyramid model consisted of four
>equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form a half-octahedron,
>but I need a bit more detail. What was the approximate length of one of the
>edges? 

My memories are dim. These ready-made PVC pyramids were sold at the heighth
of the "pyramid-craze" in the 1970's, so I assume the proportions were the
same as in the Czech patent which apparently inspired the whole shebang (I
guess I have a copy of that patent in a file somewhere...). Length of base
was approximately 20 cm. The pyramid had to be oriented NSEW and the sample
was to be placed at one third of the pyramid's heighth. The other
experiment that you were supposed to do was sharpening an used razor-blade,
but I did not try that one. I might add that, recently (2 years ago) I
built a carboard pyramid, using geometrical figures from a KeelyNet post,
and it looked a lot more high and "pointy" than my old pyramid, or than the
Egyptian Cheops pyramid. So I'm a bit confused about all that. 

>What kind of surface was it resting on during the experiment--e.g.,
>formica, wood, glass, etc? 

Wood (the top of a book shelf furniture)

>Were the conditions in the room humid or dry?

Standard parisian weather in an appartment, so I should think rather dry.

>Was there a source of heat nearby? (E.g., was it near a window where it
>could be exposed to direct sunlight?)

It was near a window, but I don't think it received any direct sunlight.

Hope that helps

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 03:30:10 2000
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Sept. 16, 2,000

Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Albert was suspected of being retarded because he was a genius,

Asimov wrote that young Einstein  was so slow in learning to speak, and showed no
early intellectual promise that there were some feeling he may prove to be retarded.
'Genius' came later.

> Sir Heaviside authored that in his mathematical treatise on electrodynamics prior
> to Albert Einstein coming on the scene

I read Physicist and Mathematician Oliver Heaviside predicted the charged ionosphere
layer (for the radio bounce) but no credit for the derivation of E=MC^,  even in the
Brittanica. Could you quote me a source? Curious.
I see Heaviside is essentially self educated  'Sir' came after they deciphered his
own style of mathematical notations.

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 05:02:01 2000
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> hamdi wrote:
> 
> >I will try to show a photon have inertia and inertia is direct consequence
> >of energy conservation.
> >
> >1) When a photon is observed from a different inertial reference of frame
> >would have different frequency and energy by the consequence of SR.
> >
> >2) The energy difference should be equal the energy needed to accelerate a
> >mass of energy equivalent of the photon to a velocity equal to difference
> >of reference of frames.
> 
> I see a problem:
> 
> I view a photon from a frame moving towards the source of the photon.  The
> photon is blue-shifted...i.e. increased in energy.  OK, we can try to set
> that equal to (1/2)mv^2, where m is the photon effective mass.
> 
> But when I view the same photon from a frame moving AWAY from the source of
> the photon, I see it red shifted....i.e. decreased in energy.  How can I
> set that negative energy equal to (1/2)mv^2, which is always positive?
> 

Lets work on mirror example (3):

A mirror moving with velocity v bounce a photon.

Let m mass of the mirror, v' velocity of the mirror after the photon bounce, e and e' energies of the photon before and after bouncing.

conservation of energy provides (assuming v<<c):

	1/2 m v'^2 + e' = 1/2 m v^2 + e			(1)


	1/2 m v'^2 - 1/2 m v^2 = e-e' 			(2)

let dv = v' - v and de = e' - e

	1/2m (v^2 + 2vdv + dv^2 - v^2) = -de		(3)

	2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m				(4)

assuming dv<<v we ignore the squared term

	dv.mv = -de					(5)
or      
        dv = -de / mv

now let give meaning to signs of these items

dv having same sign of v means mirror is accelerated gaining energy causing
de be negative meaning photon loose energy.

If dv have opposite size of v, means deceleration, de become positive.

I think same conclusion can be obtained by relativistic formulas.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 06:13:13 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: inertia is a consequence of energy conservation
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At 02:56 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
      
>        dv = -de / mv
>
>now let give meaning to signs of these items
>
>dv having same sign of v means mirror is accelerated gaining energy causing
>de be negative meaning photon loose energy.
>
>If dv have opposite size of v, means deceleration, de become positive.

this may create a paradox:

>From the lab frame, your idea appears consistent.  (1) if we observe a
photon reflecting from a mirror moving towards the photon source, we see
the mirror slowed down and the photon gain energy.  (2) if we observe a
photon reflecting from a mirror moving away from the photon source, we see
the mirror speed up and the photon lose energy.  Fine.

But from the viewpoint of an observer riding on the mirror, the photon
always approaches at c and the mirror always recoils from the impact and
therefore the photon always loses energy as the mirror gains kinetic energy.

How can both be true at the same time?


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 06:25:07 2000
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David Dennard wrote:

 Hey, a drunk is a
> drunk, office style or street style, makes no difference.

---

Yes, David, and you're a moron.

But in the morning _I'll_ be sober!^)


(Thank you Mr. Churchill!)

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 06:48:14 2000
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AK writes:

>Asimov wrote that young Einstein  was so slow in learning to speak, and
showed no
>early intellectual promise that there were some feeling he may prove to be
retarded.
>'Genius' came later.

Well, I suppose that as a matter of semantics, that you could say that
Albert actually was retarded in a way as a child because of his inability to
communicate. However, his inability to communicate with others may have been
a function or a result of the fact that his level of thinking or
understanding was so superior, even as a child, to those around him that he
simply failed to find a common linquistic basis for expressing his
experience.  It would not surprise me that this was the case.

I myself, have had experiences that I thought were so outside of the
classically Western defined, norm that they defied description in any
language that I know, and I've studied more than a few languages, but from
my contact with English speaking, Eastern thinkers, I have learned that my
experiences were actually quite common, and do have a linguistic form in
Eastern languages.  It is just not expressed well in Western thought
patterns.  It is a cultural thing, like the Eskimos having ~30 different
words for "snow".  They have a knowledge and understanding based on
generations of experience with snow that is superior to ours, and our belief
that we are superior to them in this regard simply because we have more
destructive weaponry is false, arrogant and foolish.  I think that we could
learn a lot from them about snow and many other things if we approached them
humbly as equals who wished to share and exchange knowledge for our mutual
benefit instead of rulers who want to exploit their resources.

I like to think that Einstein was a genius from birth who was born
surrounded by people of lesser mental abilities.  His life's struggle was
learning the languages of German, English and Mathmatics, the languages
spoken by these people of lesser mental abilities, well enough to
communicate to them what he understood about the Cosmos.  I know enough
about each of the above languages to say that they are all both difficult to
master, and also quite confined in what they are allowed to express.  There
are reasons for both shortcomings, but eventually Einstein became the master
of all three languages over time, and his genius was finally, officially
given recognition.

>> Sir Heaviside authored that in his mathematical treatise on
electrodynamics prior
>> to Albert Einstein coming on the scene
>
>I read Physicist and Mathematician Oliver Heaviside predicted the charged
ionosphere
>layer (for the radio bounce) but no credit for the derivation of E=MC^,
even in the
>Brittanica. Could you quote me a source? Curious.
>I see Heaviside is essentially self educated  'Sir' came after they
deciphered his
>own style of mathematical notations.
>
>-AK-

Well, you've got me on the source I'm afraid, and I have to admit that I
could be wrong about this, but I don't think so.  I first learned of Sir
Heaviside here on the Vortex Group (Egads! What for a source, eh?).  I think
Michael Mandeville and Chris Tinsley both made the case originally for my
assertion.  I didn't say it to take anything away from Einstein per se, as
Einstein presented the equation as part of an entire mathmatic that was
literally quite earthshaking in its first application.  I made the assertion
because Mandeville and Tinsley had both come to the same finding in their
own independant researches of the history of electrodynamics that the
equation E=MC^2 first emanated from the pen of Sir Heaviside. 

I have subsequently seen this reported in a few other sources on the
internet as well, even citing the exact published document actually where it
could be found, but I don't have those refs handy.  Only a study of the
original paper would verify this, and I don't have the means to do that
study.  If I run across a scholarly mention of this again, I will remember
to let you know.  It is not something of small importance from what I have
subsequently learned on a larger scale, and I would like to see a copy of
the original paper myself.

I think that perhaps a review of the history of History may be in order
before we will be allowed to advance the field of alternate energy.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 07:52:13 2000
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Basic Stuff Needed :

 2 ea. 11 ft diameter x 2 ft high galvanized steel stock tanks, 1400 gallon capacity (295 lbs
each)

50 feet 12 gauge plastic insulated solid copper wire (20 amps continuous duty)

12 volt 40 ampere-hour lead acid battery

Plastic observation "Bubble"

Pulser circuit.

Lounge chair and some beer and pretzels.

Construction:

Wrap one turn of the wire around the outside of the tank and run it thru to
the pulser/battery control (next to the lounge chair).

Cut a  2 foot diameter hole in the center of the second tank (inverted and mounted
on the lower tank and clamped to it) and sealed with duct tape, and install the "bubble"  so
that while seated
in the lounge chair there is a clear view in all directions.

Calculated lift; n* 20 * (pi)R^2* 30 = 2400 lbs

Estimated net (levitation) lift; 1200 lbs.

Install/"Mount" yourself in the vehicle and apply the pulse power.

If Nothing Happens, kick back in the lounge chair and enjoy the beer and pretzels
while your wife waits for the looney squad to arrive.

Regards,    Frederick




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Scott Little wrote:

I view a photon from a frame moving towards the source of
the photon.  The photon is blue-shifted...i.e. increased
in energy.  OK, we can try to set that equal to (1/2)mv^2,
where m is the photon effective mass.

But when I view the same photon from a frame moving
AWAY from the source of the photon, I see it red
shifted....i.e. decreased in energy.  How can I set
that negative energy equal to (1/2)mv^2, which is always
positive?

Hi Scott and Hamdi,

There may be something wrong with the following argument,
but just for fun:

Blue-shifted or red-shifted, the photon will exert a force on
me, the observer,  F = p/t, where p is the momentum of the
photon and t is the impact time.  If this force makes me move
away from something that is gravitationaly attracting me (no
need to discuss whether gravity is a push or a pull), then my
energy has been increased -- the longer the wavelength of the
photon, the smaller the momentum of the photon, and
the smaller my increase in energy, as follows:

1)  E = hf  (Planck), where f = frequency and E = energy

2)  E = mc^2  (Einstein), where m = mass and c = speed of light

3)  L = c/f, where L = wavelength

4)  p = momentum = mc = (E/c^2)c = E/c = hf/c = (hf)/(Lf) =h/L

Jack Smith


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I didn't say it was a hoax, just that I was confirming your claim. That is good
science isn't it?
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> His webmaster Michael Phillips is redoing the Whirlpower site right now.
> "Great potential, let's make it happen", his exact words.  He says he is
> Kaku's good friend.  And he called me personnaly on the telephone.  I don't
> think it is a hoax.
>
> Email address match up.
>
>
> >Hi David,
> >    I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have spoken
> >with him
> >on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of this
> >post.If
> >indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to be
> >the
> >first to congratulate you.
> >MJ
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > > I'm an outsider, an amateur, a nobody.  But I went to college for ten
> >years,
> > > took a little physics, even have a graduate level course in cosmology.
> > >
> > > My work is dream inspired.  I saw a whirlpool generating electricity in
> >a
> > > dream.  I have worked on this all my life.  Amateur does not mean
> >someone of
> > > lesserness.  Even though for sure I am not as "trained" as many are.  A
> > > monkey can be "trained".  And evidence is that what most have been
> >taught is
> > > bunk anyway.
> > >
> > > I see it as someone working on something because that is his interest,
> >or
> > > her's.  Just means it is not a profession.  I don't have to answer to
> >anyone
> > > paying me to do anything.
> > >
> > > We are about to see the amateur Olympics.  Doesn't mean they are lesser.
> > > Just that they do not get paid to do it.  Actually these days they do,
> >some
> > > of them, and that takes away from the reality of it all.
> > >
> > > That's why I ask for no money.  I'm not going to waste my time chasing
> >and
> > > kissing up to Mr. Money Bags.
> > >
> > > This is real science, theorist propose, scientists dispose, the
> >Scientific
> > > Method.  I propose that whirlpools can generate electricity.  I've shown
> > > whirlpools are unknown to science.  My challenge to provide whirlpool
> >data
> > > is unmet.  Independence concurrance of my research has been found.  And
> >this
> > > did not happen overnight.  There are 10,000 archived pages backing all
> >this
> > > up.  WE have built three whirlpools, and by all acconts they are the
> >first
> > > whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Not to be
> >confused
> > > with a tornado type vortex.  And they match my theory predictions.  Look
> > > just like little hurricanes, just like little spiral galaxies.
> >Unexplained
> > > by current science.
> > >
> > > And now the BBC is working on a shown featuring my work and Dr. Kaku's
> >team
> > > is backing me up.  Yet you will find little on my work in the "NEW
> >ENERGY"
> > > Community (even though I have contacted many sites) because my work is
> >so
> > > advanced and so revolutionaly, yet it is SIMPLE, schoolchilden have
> >written
> > > and say they understand exactly what I am saying.
> > >
> > > And the rest is history.  Will be well known history if Whirlpower is
> > > proven.  Little known but important data on whirlpools if Whirlpower is
> > > disproven.  That's good science.
> > >
> > > David Dennard
> > > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> > >
> > > P.S. My website is already getting a new look.  Dr. Kaku's webmaster
> >Michael
> > > Phillips says he will have the new one up very soon.
> > >
> > > >From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > >Subject: The most famous "outsider"
> > > >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
> > > >
> > > >I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and innovation if
> >I
> > > >did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, and
> > > >James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:
> > > >
> > > >       Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
> > > >       extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was not,
> > > >       when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was very
> > > >       much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
> > > >       simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
> > > >       particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
> > > >       literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .
> > > >
> > > >       The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the scientific
> > > >       instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
> > > >       world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set the
> > > >       improbability that an established or traditional engine man
> > > >       could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, in
> > > >       the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
> > > >       documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary ideas
> > > >       to an established technology. There have been many such examples
> > > >       since his day. . . .
> > > >
> > > >       - "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164
> > > >
> > > >In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of
> >innovation
> > > >out of proportion to its population, financial power and social
> >standing in
> > > >Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James Watt,
> >John
> > > >Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of
> >technology,
> > > >David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New System
> >of
> > > >Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
> > > >
> > > >Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
> > > >presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less
> >incentive
> > > >to preserve existing institutions.
> > > >
> > > >It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
> > > >scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in Northern
> >Europe
> > > >and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his Aryan
> > > >Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because it
> >is
> > > >mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond the
> > > >pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. You
> > > >would think he would know his own history.
> > > >
> > > >I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is part
> >of a
> > > >thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.
> > > >
> > > >Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd to
> > > >suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they
> >were
> > > >outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.
> > > >
> > > >- Jed
> > > >
> > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html
> > > >
> > > >AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS IN
> > > >GEOLOGY
> > > >
> > > >Nancy Nicholson
> > > >School of Interdisciplinary Studies
> > > >Western College Program
> > > >Miami University
> > > >Oxford, Ohio 45056
> > > >nicholnl muohio.edu
> > > >Background
> > > >
> > > >Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been forced
> >by
> > > >outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure of
> > > >disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift triggered by
> > > >accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide array of
> > > >academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively
> >accounts of
> > > >these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter Alvarez.
> >A
> > > >consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the role
> >of
> > > >outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.
> > > >
> > > >The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" or
> > > >"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
> > > >educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported in
> >that
> > > >data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence of
> >sea
> > > >floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. And
> >it
> > > >was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that had
> >been
> > > >the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as
> >advocates
> > > >of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. Within
> >a
> > > >decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
> > > >theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).
> > > >
> > > >After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of Earth,
> >in
> > > >spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
> > > >resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an inability
> > > >explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond Earth.
> >This
> > > >created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, an
> > > >opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear physicist,
> >Luis
> > > >Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

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Hi David,
   Ok, I see the point but in the examples you use all the effects described are
caused by an outside force or forces working to create the whirlpool/vortex and
various subtle flow patterns within the whirlpool/vortex. How does this
translate into some form of energy in which more is produced than is being
supplied? If you mean it is like solar or wind power, ok, fine. But if you are
saying it is something else then you would have to do the math. Show the total
energy contained in whatever thing (river current,etc) that is creating the
whirlpool/vortex and then show how more energy than that is being created within
the whirlpool/vortex than is being supplied and THEN show how to extract this
energy. I don't have a problem with the possibility that you can get more energy
out of a system than YOU supply (that is just a matter of engineering and
design) but I DO have a problem with the concept that you can get more energy
out of something than is AVAILABLE from any source. Even Zero Point Energy is
just tapping into a larger source and cold fusion is simply using a catalyst to
supply the conditions necessary for two hydrogen atoms to join up at the nucleus
and drop one electron, thereby becoming one He atom. That too is just a matter
of engineering. So how is your concept different? Maybe you don't mean to but
you sound a bit cryptic with saying that no one understands what you mean. If
that is the case then it is your job to make your idea plain enough for us to
understand.
MJ
P.S. Looked at maelstrom site and it looks like a whirlpool to me.

David Dennard wrote:

> I'd be interested in what your definition of a whirlpool is.
>
> http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
>
> That's a whirlpool.
>
> A whirlpool is not a tornado type vortex.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 09:13:35 2000
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 02:56 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> >        dv = -de / mv
> >
> >now let give meaning to signs of these items
> >
> >dv having same sign of v means mirror is accelerated gaining energy causing
> >de be negative meaning photon loose energy.
> >
> >If dv have opposite size of v, means deceleration, de become positive.
> 
> this may create a paradox:
> 
> >From the lab frame, your idea appears consistent.  (1) if we observe a
> photon reflecting from a mirror moving towards the photon source, we see
> the mirror slowed down and the photon gain energy.  (2) if we observe a
> photon reflecting from a mirror moving away from the photon source, we see
> the mirror speed up and the photon lose energy.  Fine.
> 
> But from the viewpoint of an observer riding on the mirror, the photon
> always approaches at c and the mirror always recoils from the impact and
> therefore the photon always loses energy as the mirror gains kinetic energy.
> 
> How can both be true at the same time?

>From observer riding on the mirror v is zero, and equation become

     2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m                           (4)

as 2vdv=0

     dv^2 = -2 de/m                                  (6)

     1/2 m dv^2 = -de				     (7)
	
left side is always positive as you pointed, so de is negative, photon loose energy.

Actually this lost is present in moving mirror case, but ignored as it was infinitesimal.

This can be ignored also on this mirror frame observer case, and saying photon does not loose energy on this frame. This still a paradox as from observer seeing the mirror moving.

But it is important that mirror should accelerate/decelerate for the energy transfer occurs, or not? :)

Does a light reflecting from a mirror fixed to moving planetary body experience redshift?

May there would be flaw here. now your turn.

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 09:26:47 2000
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Subject: Re: The Torus Donut
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Mike,

Some of the finest words I have ever seen written on this subject.  Sure 
beats backbites and cat calls.

The energy is coming from gravity.  Plain and simple.  Frame dragging is the 
word used in space science, put on the shelf for almost 100 years but 
recently proven.  And "far more powerful and anyone ever anticipated", 
sending scientists "scrambling to follow up", states Kathy Saywer of the 
Washington Post in her definitive report.  Now stands at the "final 
frontier" of science, the report goes.

The wobble of the whirlpool, or the hurricane, or the spiral galaxy, throws 
off a density wave, the Third Wave, the dual radial arm pattern.  The wobble 
is the third note of the cosmic chord, the third note of precession.

This "energy spiral", not to be confused with the corkscrew spiral of Chaos 
Theory vortex science of the old thermodynamic paradigm, is driving these 
systems in Whirlpower Theory.  This is why "science" as we know it can't 
explain %90 of the energy of motion of spiral galaxies, and why the 
hurricane is called the most mysterious event in nature.

Science does not yet recognize Whirlpower.  But Kaku's team just did.  WE 
are a go for the TOE.

Really it is as simple as it can be.  Once you get it that gravity causes 
evaporation you got the cosmological constant Einstein died looking for.  
Once you get it that a tornado type vortex is not the same thing as a 
whirlpool you got the basic understanding it takes to see Whirlpower.  Once 
you see it, it is like one of those hidden pictures, right in front of your 
eyes the whole time.

And no whirlpools ever built by man before in all recorded history has to be 
the largest gap and knowledge and scientific exploration of all time.

And pure ignorance if everyone on this list does not stand up and add your 
vote to the Whirlpower Declartion NOW!

David Dennard
"the mouse that roared"
It's The Fizz In The Physics
Bubble UP!!!
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The Torus Donut
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:57:50 -0400
>
>Hi David,
>    Ok, I see the point but in the examples you use all the effects 
>described are
>caused by an outside force or forces working to create the whirlpool/vortex 
>and
>various subtle flow patterns within the whirlpool/vortex. How does this
>translate into some form of energy in which more is produced than is being
>supplied? If you mean it is like solar or wind power, ok, fine. But if you 
>are
>saying it is something else then you would have to do the math. Show the 
>total
>energy contained in whatever thing (river current,etc) that is creating the
>whirlpool/vortex and then show how more energy than that is being created 
>within
>the whirlpool/vortex than is being supplied and THEN show how to extract 
>this
>energy. I don't have a problem with the possibility that you can get more 
>energy
>out of a system than YOU supply (that is just a matter of engineering and
>design) but I DO have a problem with the concept that you can get more 
>energy
>out of something than is AVAILABLE from any source. Even Zero Point Energy 
>is
>just tapping into a larger source and cold fusion is simply using a 
>catalyst to
>supply the conditions necessary for two hydrogen atoms to join up at the 
>nucleus
>and drop one electron, thereby becoming one He atom. That too is just a 
>matter
>of engineering. So how is your concept different? Maybe you don't mean to 
>but
>you sound a bit cryptic with saying that no one understands what you mean. 
>If
>that is the case then it is your job to make your idea plain enough for us 
>to
>understand.
>MJ
>P.S. Looked at maelstrom site and it looks like a whirlpool to me.
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > I'd be interested in what your definition of a whirlpool is.
> >
> > http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
> >
> > That's a whirlpool.
> >
> > A whirlpool is not a tornado type vortex.
> >
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 09:46:27 2000
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Very good.  I didn't mean to imply your were saying it was a hoax.  I just 
meant it did not look like a hoax to me.  I really think Michael is doing 
what he says he is doing.  I really think a brand new Whirlpower site is 
going up very soon and we are going to see whirlpools built and tested in a 
scientific manner.

Whirlpower will be proven or disproven by the Scientific Method.  I think it 
will be proven.

The proof is in the pudding, not in our stars.

David


>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The most famous "outsider"
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:59:28 -0400
>
>I didn't say it was a hoax, just that I was confirming your claim. That is 
>good
>science isn't it?
>MJ
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > His webmaster Michael Phillips is redoing the Whirlpower site right now.
> > "Great potential, let's make it happen", his exact words.  He says he is
> > Kaku's good friend.  And he called me personnaly on the telephone.  I 
>don't
> > think it is a hoax.
> >
> > Email address match up.
> >
> >
> > >Hi David,
> > >    I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have 
>spoken
> > >with him
> > >on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of this
> > >post.If
> > >indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to 
>be
> > >the
> > >first to congratulate you.
> > >MJ
> > >
> > >David Dennard wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm an outsider, an amateur, a nobody.  But I went to college for 
>ten
> > >years,
> > > > took a little physics, even have a graduate level course in 
>cosmology.
> > > >
> > > > My work is dream inspired.  I saw a whirlpool generating electricity 
>in
> > >a
> > > > dream.  I have worked on this all my life.  Amateur does not mean
> > >someone of
> > > > lesserness.  Even though for sure I am not as "trained" as many are. 
>  A
> > > > monkey can be "trained".  And evidence is that what most have been
> > >taught is
> > > > bunk anyway.
> > > >
> > > > I see it as someone working on something because that is his 
>interest,
> > >or
> > > > her's.  Just means it is not a profession.  I don't have to answer 
>to
> > >anyone
> > > > paying me to do anything.
> > > >
> > > > We are about to see the amateur Olympics.  Doesn't mean they are 
>lesser.
> > > > Just that they do not get paid to do it.  Actually these days they 
>do,
> > >some
> > > > of them, and that takes away from the reality of it all.
> > > >
> > > > That's why I ask for no money.  I'm not going to waste my time 
>chasing
> > >and
> > > > kissing up to Mr. Money Bags.
> > > >
> > > > This is real science, theorist propose, scientists dispose, the
> > >Scientific
> > > > Method.  I propose that whirlpools can generate electricity.  I've 
>shown
> > > > whirlpools are unknown to science.  My challenge to provide 
>whirlpool
> > >data
> > > > is unmet.  Independence concurrance of my research has been found.  
>And
> > >this
> > > > did not happen overnight.  There are 10,000 archived pages backing 
>all
> > >this
> > > > up.  WE have built three whirlpools, and by all acconts they are the
> > >first
> > > > whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Not to be
> > >confused
> > > > with a tornado type vortex.  And they match my theory predictions.  
>Look
> > > > just like little hurricanes, just like little spiral galaxies.
> > >Unexplained
> > > > by current science.
> > > >
> > > > And now the BBC is working on a shown featuring my work and Dr. 
>Kaku's
> > >team
> > > > is backing me up.  Yet you will find little on my work in the "NEW
> > >ENERGY"
> > > > Community (even though I have contacted many sites) because my work 
>is
> > >so
> > > > advanced and so revolutionaly, yet it is SIMPLE, schoolchilden have
> > >written
> > > > and say they understand exactly what I am saying.
> > > >
> > > > And the rest is history.  Will be well known history if Whirlpower 
>is
> > > > proven.  Little known but important data on whirlpools if Whirlpower 
>is
> > > > disproven.  That's good science.
> > > >
> > > > David Dennard
> > > > http://www.whirlpower.cc
> > > >
> > > > P.S. My website is already getting a new look.  Dr. Kaku's webmaster
> > >Michael
> > > > Phillips says he will have the new one up very soon.
> > > >
> > > > >From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> > > > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > > >To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > > >Subject: The most famous "outsider"
> > > > >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > >I would be remiss in discussing the role of outsiders and 
>innovation if
> > >I
> > > > >did not mention the most famous and often cited examples: Scotland, 
>and
> > > > >James Watt. As Cardwell describes it:
> > > > >
> > > > >       Watt's career and achievements have a general significance
> > > > >       extending beyond the history of the steam engine. He was 
>not,
> > > > >       when he made his key invention, a 'fire engine' man; he was 
>very
> > > > >       much an outsider.  Newcomen's engine was well established,
> > > > >       simple and reliable it was cheap to build and operate,
> > > > >       particularly at collieries where waste pit-head coal was
> > > > >       literally dirt cheap and unsaleable. . . .
> > > > >
> > > > >       The first [Watt] engines carry the hallmark of the 
>scientific
> > > > >       instrument maker; a perfectionist, unfamiliar with the rough
> > > > >       world of eighteenth-century mining. Against this must be set 
>the
> > > > >       improbability that an established or traditional engine man
> > > > >       could have made this remarkable invention. In other words, 
>in
> > > > >       the case of Watt's inventions we have another and very well
> > > > >       documented example of the outsider bringing revolutionary 
>ideas
> > > > >       to an established technology. There have been many such 
>examples
> > > > >       since his day. . . .
> > > > >
> > > > >       - "Norton History of Technology," p. 163, 164
> > > > >
> > > > >In the early Industrial Revolution, Scotland was the hotbed of
> > >innovation
> > > > >out of proportion to its population, financial power and social
> > >standing in
> > > > >Great Britain. Well known Scotsmen from that era include James 
>Watt,
> > >John
> > > > >Napier, David Gregory, Joseph Black, and in fields outside of
> > >technology,
> > > > >David Hume and Adam Smith. John Dalton dedicated his book "New 
>System
> > >of
> > > > >Chemical Philosophy" to the Universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
> > > > >
> > > > >Innovations often come from regions far from the centers of power,
> > > > >presumably because the people living out in the sticks have less
> > >incentive
> > > > >to preserve existing institutions.
> > > > >
> > > > >It is ironic that Douglass Morrison often claims that all important
> > > > >scientific discoveries are made in the centers of power, in 
>Northern
> > >Europe
> > > > >and the East Coast of the United States. That's the gist of his 
>Aryan
> > > > >Science Numerology thesis, in which he rejects cold fusion because 
>it
> > >is
> > > > >mainly practiced by Orientals, Italians, and others who live beyond 
>the
> > > > >pale and don't eat proper meat. Morrison himself is from Scotland. 
>You
> > > > >would think he would know his own history.
> > > > >
> > > > >I do not know much about the history of pure science but here is 
>part
> > >of a
> > > > >thesis describing the "outsider phenomenon" in geology.
> > > > >
> > > > >Getting back to the original theme raised here, it would be absurd 
>to
> > > > >suggest that Watt, Alvarez or Fleischmann were "amateurs," but they
> > >were
> > > > >outsiders to the fields they revolutionized.
> > > > >
> > > > >- Jed
> > > > >
> > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >http://www.pat-net.org/pages/papers/nicholson.html
> > > > >
> > > > >AN ESSENTIAL ROLE OF OUTSIDERS IN TRANSFORMATIONS: PARADIGM SHIFTS 
>IN
> > > > >GEOLOGY
> > > > >
> > > > >Nancy Nicholson
> > > > >School of Interdisciplinary Studies
> > > > >Western College Program
> > > > >Miami University
> > > > >Oxford, Ohio 45056
> > > > >nicholnl muohio.edu
> > > > >Background
> > > > >
> > > > >Two 20th century paradigm shifts in geological science have been 
>forced
> > >by
> > > > >outsiders. These were logically tied to evolution in the structure 
>of
> > > > >disciplines in general. This was more than a Kuhnian shift 
>triggered by
> > > > >accumulating bits of unconnected data; it was accompanied wide 
>array of
> > > > >academic political maneuvering, rewarding and punishing. Lively
> > >accounts of
> > > > >these events are detailed in books by Glen, Powell and Walter 
>Alvarez.
> > >A
> > > > >consistent feature in the rapid changes in earth science was the 
>role
> > >of
> > > > >outsiders who had less to lose and more to gain than did insiders.
> > > > >
> > > > >The first transformation (late 60s) was due to internal "outsiders" 
>or
> > > > >"Young Turks" who had different data (Glen, 3) than the classically
> > > > >educated "Old Grey Heads." Their pressure for change was supported 
>in
> > >that
> > > > >data sets of from surveys of the sea floor became the hard evidence 
>of
> > >sea
> > > > >floor spreading, the essential first mechanism of plate tectonics. 
>And
> > >it
> > > > >was no longer necessary to "go everywhere and see everything" that 
>had
> > >been
> > > > >the source of academic power for senior classical geologists as
> > >advocates
> > > > >of a mainly static planet evolving by uniformitarian principles. 
>Within
> > >a
> > > > >decade, a century of geology had to be rethought and given a new
> > > > >theoretical underpinning (Cox and Hart).
> > > > >
> > > > >After an explosion of information about the dynamic structure of 
>Earth,
> > >in
> > > > >spite of spectacular successes in predicting locations and types of
> > > > >resources, plate tectonics had its first general failure: an 
>inability
> > > > >explain the structure of most of the solar system bodies beyond 
>Earth.
> > >This
> > > > >created an area of uncertainty ripe for intellectual penetration, 
>an
> > > > >opportunity promptly exploited by a Nobel Laureate nuclear 
>physicist,
> > >Luis
> > > > >Alvarez (Powell, 33; Alvarez, W., 139; Hut, et. al.). . . .
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > 
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > >http://www.hotmail.com.
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> > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > > http://profiles.msn.com.
> > >
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
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> >
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 10:03:53 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: The Torus Donut
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:02:38 PDT
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Got kinda excited there;

That's, "got to be the largest gap in knowledge and scientific exploration 
of all time".

Quick correction in search of perfection,
David


>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The Torus Donut
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:25:02 PDT
>
>Mike,
>
>Some of the finest words I have ever seen written on this subject.  Sure
>beats backbites and cat calls.
>
>The energy is coming from gravity.  Plain and simple.  Frame dragging is 
>the
>word used in space science, put on the shelf for almost 100 years but
>recently proven.  And "far more powerful and anyone ever anticipated",
>sending scientists "scrambling to follow up", states Kathy Saywer of the
>Washington Post in her definitive report.  Now stands at the "final
>frontier" of science, the report goes.
>
>The wobble of the whirlpool, or the hurricane, or the spiral galaxy, throws
>off a density wave, the Third Wave, the dual radial arm pattern.  The 
>wobble
>is the third note of the cosmic chord, the third note of precession.
>
>This "energy spiral", not to be confused with the corkscrew spiral of Chaos
>Theory vortex science of the old thermodynamic paradigm, is driving these
>systems in Whirlpower Theory.  This is why "science" as we know it can't
>explain %90 of the energy of motion of spiral galaxies, and why the
>hurricane is called the most mysterious event in nature.
>
>Science does not yet recognize Whirlpower.  But Kaku's team just did.  WE
>are a go for the TOE.
>
>Really it is as simple as it can be.  Once you get it that gravity causes
>evaporation you got the cosmological constant Einstein died looking for.
>Once you get it that a tornado type vortex is not the same thing as a
>whirlpool you got the basic understanding it takes to see Whirlpower.  Once
>you see it, it is like one of those hidden pictures, right in front of your
>eyes the whole time.
>
>And no whirlpools ever built by man before in all recorded history has to 
>be
>the largest gap and knowledge and scientific exploration of all time.
>
>And pure ignorance if everyone on this list does not stand up and add your
>vote to the Whirlpower Declartion NOW!
>
>David Dennard
>"the mouse that roared"
>It's The Fizz In The Physics
>Bubble UP!!!
>http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
>
>>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: The Torus Donut
>>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:57:50 -0400
>>
>>Hi David,
>>    Ok, I see the point but in the examples you use all the effects
>>described are
>>caused by an outside force or forces working to create the 
>>whirlpool/vortex
>>and
>>various subtle flow patterns within the whirlpool/vortex. How does this
>>translate into some form of energy in which more is produced than is being
>>supplied? If you mean it is like solar or wind power, ok, fine. But if you
>>are
>>saying it is something else then you would have to do the math. Show the
>>total
>>energy contained in whatever thing (river current,etc) that is creating 
>>the
>>whirlpool/vortex and then show how more energy than that is being created
>>within
>>the whirlpool/vortex than is being supplied and THEN show how to extract
>>this
>>energy. I don't have a problem with the possibility that you can get more
>>energy
>>out of a system than YOU supply (that is just a matter of engineering and
>>design) but I DO have a problem with the concept that you can get more
>>energy
>>out of something than is AVAILABLE from any source. Even Zero Point Energy
>>is
>>just tapping into a larger source and cold fusion is simply using a
>>catalyst to
>>supply the conditions necessary for two hydrogen atoms to join up at the
>>nucleus
>>and drop one electron, thereby becoming one He atom. That too is just a
>>matter
>>of engineering. So how is your concept different? Maybe you don't mean to
>>but
>>you sound a bit cryptic with saying that no one understands what you mean.
>>If
>>that is the case then it is your job to make your idea plain enough for us
>>to
>>understand.
>>MJ
>>P.S. Looked at maelstrom site and it looks like a whirlpool to me.
>>
>>David Dennard wrote:
>>
>> > I'd be interested in what your definition of a whirlpool is.
>> >
>> > http://www.the-strange.com/maelstrom.html
>> >
>> > That's a whirlpool.
>> >
>> > A whirlpool is not a tornado type vortex.
>> >
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 11:19:59 2000
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Here is a picture of it, Hank.
> 
>  http://www.autoshop-online.com/auto101/cooling1.html
> 
> I haven't had to have a radiator "rodded out" since it came
> on the market.


You can't rod today's radiator cores.  Have you examined the assembly
lately?  :-)  It's actually cheaper to replace the unit.  So little
copper . . .

I repaired radiators and heater cores in the 60/70s to get through
school.  Used a NG torch to remove the copper alloy tanks.  Most are
plastic now.

How many people on the list know that your automatic transmission fluid
is cooled by the radiator? (In most cases.)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 11:27:47 2000
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To all,

Here is the Whirlpower Declartion.  I hope my years of work on this list, 
all the abuse I have taken, all the name calling I have received, has not 
been for naught.  I've learned much from this list and hope to learn more.  
I thank those that have made positive comments and engaged in civil debate.  
I even thank those that only tried to put me down, that just made me look 
better in the long run.

I ask eveyone to add your vote.  Just means you have the common sense to see 
that whirlpools should be built and tested.  Doesn't mean you have to 
endorse my entire theory.  But if you give it the least bit of thought it is 
simple enough for a child to understand, many have said they do.

Dr. Kaku has stated, "our passage fro a 0 to 1 civilization is probably 
about something so simple it is just that nobody ever thought about it 
before".  There is nothing more simple than Whirlpower.  If something as 
simple as a whirlpool can generate electricity, we need to find out and we 
need to find out NOW!

BE a part of History.  Stand up for a cleaner planet.

I thank you and Mother Nature thanks you.

David

******************************************


Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration

Sep 16 2000               To Build A Whirlpool

To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:

>From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:

This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool
built and tested by science.  After considerable research it has
been shown that a whirlpool has never been built by man before.
It is our opinion that one should be built, tested, and the
results announced to the general public.

The research on this goes back several years on the internet and
many, many, years by myself and several people on this list.  I
began by trying to find the whirlpools in the world after being
inspired by a dream.  This search has led to this theory and call
for a whirlpool to be built in an unbiased, multiple, Scientific
Method, theorists propose, scientists dispose, test.  This
information is given freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration
stating the posibility a whirlpool can be built in such a way that
it will generate electricity, and as a bonus will actually clean
water in the process!

Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to
solving the pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the
problems caused by the pollution and danger of current energy
sources.  This is not a request for cash, just that a simple
scientific experiment be performed, however those interested are invited to 
contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our
efforts.

Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in
nature.  This pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the
movement of the solar system, the hurricane, river eddies, and
even down to the microscopic.  It is seen in the beauty of all
living things, it is life, it is the essence.

Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding
of the world we live in that is very much different than was
thought only a few years ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin
has stated, "scientists are going to have to give up their most
precious beliefs" in the ABC News Transcript posted at my website.  
Whirlpower Theory has been on the crest of this new understanding
and predicted many of the discoveries long before they were
announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark matter
(Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall and Perlmutter), and the
slowing down of the speed of light (Hau), are all predicted by the relative 
density displacement basis spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to 
the fluid nature of space.  And the very
latest announcement of the proof of flat space.

Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has
weathered the storm and now shows great promise as more and more
are finally starting to see the possibility.

All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in
a scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be
interested to try it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed
up to count.  We have built several small models that show the
action I have described, and we have other tests of principle
models by people in our group.  These appear to be the first
whirlpools ever built by man.  We are working on building our next whirlpool 
and want more to join the effort. All work on this has
been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort
and available for all to use.  Please help us if you can.

All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are
some of the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex
science.  We welcome any to join with us and help bring the
Whirlpower Dream into being.

Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.

Thank you for your consideration,

David G. Dennard
The Phoenix
655 Doyle LN
Dixon Ca USA 95620

http://www.whirlpower.cc
http://egroups.com/group/whirlpower

Contact Phone  707-678-0402

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the
studyof Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the
lack of interest by many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's
just a bit too revolutionary (forgive the pun) for some.  You
don't have to have a string of qualifications and be a head of
a University department to come up with a huge scientific
breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven
right. So don't be too down hearted if the scientific community
doesn't yet have your vision, David, you may well have the last
laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some
time ago when I first got exposed to the ideas of Victor
Schauberger.  I have an active and avid interest in David's
Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge to further
my understanding in this most  intriguing of ideas.

I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to
that end I see lots of potential in some active scientific
investigation into the Whirlpower Theory. David is currently championing his 
water whirlpool based machine but I feel that
the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth, extends far
some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.

Neil Simmonds
nsimmonds y...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a college A-level student, and for my Physics project I am
studying vortex motion.  This could also apply to vortices
driven by gravity.  I have looked at your site.  You have my full
support.

Richard Cheney
RichardCHENEY l...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe
in large scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to
test Whirlpower soon... I will share the results (good or bad)
in all necessary details. I will also try to help any other
person that tries to do the same. And as an ending I recomend
any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what ever
you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the
Whirlpower ideas!

Curt Hallberg
Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
http://www.newphys.se
qrt.o.tina s...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As theories get more complex, the more the parameters of what
will besignificant are determined by existing theory...
...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental
data and an alternative theory tips the system over the edge of
the basin and a new paradigm is acknowledged.
Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory
arenecessary for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things.
It also helps to build an undeniable apparatus that does what is
supposedly impossible in the old theory.An alternative theory plus
an undeniable apparatus can do thesame (this is after all what this site and 
many others try to do)Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly 
distributed, you canafford to throw away a portion to get usable work. A 
mechanism would be a whirlpool effect.

Andre
aw49 p...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw
Dennard writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and
taking a physics bashing.  He is truely on to something most of
those best minds could only say poo or huff when they couldn't
see/feel or FIGURE it out.
What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE
ESSENCE!  I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T
GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!!  I've messed up my kitchen more times
than my wife (Laura) would want to admit, just playing with this..
THE POWER IS THERE!
...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER
the upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null /
area is tapable once the process is STARTED up. One must be
careful not to snuff or stiffle the vortex (or Power) itself... I
think I can do THAT about 100 different ways (ha.haa) -
Well, just an intro of another on a growing list, I'm all wet
in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple 
Whirlpower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the
Bigger the better!!

steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
ekwall2 d...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting
David Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to
David, from time to time my scientific thinking would emerge with
a thought, questioning the amount of energy that can be extracted
without stopping the vortex.  But then my intuitive side would
jump in, telling me that David really is on to something. And I
truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It surely
deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible.  Just think 
about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their
first flying machine. They encountered the same skepticism as
David, but now airplanesare a major means of transportation!
My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would
work, but my intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although
I am a physicist, I do not have the necessary background in
thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be able to do some
calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc.

Edward Maesen
http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that
understand how nature works. Like all great discoveries in
science, the ones that will stand for in future generations,
the ones B�champ made in Medicine, Schwaller in Egyptology,
Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in
Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch,
fertile in its consequences and comes from a single look on
nature's pattern.  One has to see it to understand it.
Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than
tall, like hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools
are centripete, have a spiral like dense center, where speed,
matter and temperature shifts.  This more dense center and its torrid 
chaotic flow on the inside also has a harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord 
- on the outside.  David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the 
unexplained last discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of 
whirpool/hurricane's power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and 
how this spiral form has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and 
order, and how the sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave 
that drags a huge donut shaped current
that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The God Energy of
the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new
mathematics and could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, 
from biology to physics, if we realize the effectiveness
of Whirlpower and bring David's dream into reality.

Dr. C�dric Mannu
cmannu e...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long
wayin the three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately
it has met with much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see
any evidence that this theory would not work.
Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity
from a huge whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which
extends far beyond the surface of this planet. Before harnessing
the force of gravity, one must understand the nature of gravity.
Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new
understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that
somebody builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data
regarding the nature of the whirlpool. It will be this data that
will show the scientists and researchers where to look for further
clues about the nature of the universe, and the role gravity has in it.  I 
have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put 
together the website for his theory:
http://www.whirlpower.cc

David Hubbard
dhubcal i...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves
serious R&D, I myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this
research and do vote for serious research on David's whirlpool technology.  
Years from now this concept will be taught in first
grade and any scientist not understanding it today surely will not
be remembered then!  To completely deny David Dennard's concept is
to accept the earth is still flat!

Hector D Perez
ARK RESEARCH
arkresearch h...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am certainly no Engineer or Rocket Scientist, I am simply a
novelist, a writer of fiction. My area of expertise is human
nature and the study thereof. I, therefore, must always acquiesce
to the experts and authorities, i.e., Einstein, Hawking, Tesla.
I do know one thing about David Denard, however. He is tenacious
in his fervent belief that this "whirlpool theory" holds validity
of the highest order. Ironically, this concept has been presented
to him  much in the same manner as Einstein's "theorems",
purportedly gleaned in a Theta state.  At the advent of the 21st century, it 
would certainly be prudent for "modern" science to exercise a more flexible 
attitude and approach as we reach out to infinity. Only with open minds, 
will we - as a collective whole- (humanity on this tiny planet) be able to 
perhaps glimpse and perceive The raison d'�tre. I definitely encourage 
further in-depth exploration of THE WHIRLPOWER THEORY.

Carole Fox-Breeding
aka Marguerite McCall
Las Vegas, Nevada
Author--The Heiresses
Angel Trilogy Series

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have been hearing a lot about this whole Whirlpower Theory.
Though I am only a gr12 science student, it seems to me that this
concept could work.  It just seems common sense actually and it surprises me 
that nobody has done any research on it until now.
Today in Geography we were watching videos on tornados and
hurricanes and I couldn't help thinking about your theory as I
saw cows and houses fly past on the screen.  Your theory has
definetly given me a lot to think about!  I hope that you get the
support that you need fromthe rest of the scientific community.

Good luck!
~Marisa
M_Demers t...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Whirlpool Theory provides an interesting, and as yet untapped,
pathway to understanding our own universe in greater detail.
It is my hope that the Scientific Community, the information
technology field in particular, will find the potential value of
such experiments. The simplicity of this idea alone should cause
"Science" to step back and reexamine where we are and where we are going.  
Because in the end, the universe operates as simply as possible, it is 
humanity that adds the complexity.

Russ Rogers
russr p...
http://www.ducktank.net
International Who's Who of Information Technology

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After going through the theory slowly, I saw that this is quite
possible indeed, and if it has the rewards it is perceived to
have, I don't know why someone doesn't do something about it and
try it out in practice to a high degree of accuracy. It could
change a whole lot, and if it doesn't, we don't lose anything,
but we gain a whole lot of knowledge.But after reading the theory,
I understood how it works...quite simple in concept, but has huge 
implications, and could give scientists a reason to go to work every morning 
to rethink their previous theories.  If it's a vote you want, you got it 
from me. But I really hope thesevotes help. I understand that the least we 
can do to help is vote, whilst you are trying other ways to get it 
implemented in practice.  If it helps us understand Hurricans, Tornadoes and 
our Milky Way itself, more clearly,  it has all the more reason to be 
implemented inpractice with the help of other people interested or able to 
do so. It's probably the fear of having to rewrite other theories, that 
keeps them from doing it ! :o/

Lawrence D' Costa
solarenigma h...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am an inquisitive thinker with a love of physics. I feel that
the work that David Dennard and the many years of exhaustive time
should be put to the test. I feel strongly that a large whirlpool should be 
constructed so that his theories on Whirlpower can be
tested properly. The building of a whirlpool has my full backing
and I hope that others step up to the plate and back him too.
This undertaking will not be very expensive and could yield a
great deal of useful information. Right or wrong, we all stand to
benefit.

Al Tillis
North Carolina, USA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am in agreement that a Whirlpower unit as you describe should
be built.  The processes involve 3 separate orthogonal movements
which for me strongly indicate the potential for tapping the
universal energy fabric.  Good wishes and success with your
project.

Andrew King
andrew.king d...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a 29 year old construction worker, and like David and others
on this list I have no formal training in any of the many branches
of science, but a few years ago I realized what I had always
desired to do, understand our universe. Since then I have tried to catch up 
on what has already been discovered to be fact and ponder
the questions that arise from every new discovery that is made as
technology advances, and theorize along the way.  At first I
didn't think much about Whirlpower, but as a result of David's
persistence, I finally gave in and listened.  And after some crude 
experiments on my own I became enthralled with whirlpools.
The que stion I keep asking myself is why.  Why does the vortex
rotate?Why does it rotate in a certain direction? Why does the vortex 
wobble?  David's theory gives us a possible explanation, but without actual 
testing calculations there isn't any proof. Just as all other great thinkers 
in history saw what everyone else took for granted and asked "why", Galileo 
and the orbits of the planets, Newton and moving objects, Einstein and time, 
so David Dennard is showing us the whirlpool and compelling us to ask why, I 
hate to think that some very important clues to understanding our universe 
weren't studied because of the complacency of the scientific community, and 
the ones with the
resources to study them.

John Hardin
DeSoto Missouri
Budove58 j...
(636)337-7164

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I support the Whirlpower Team to find a workable system that
can be used on a large basis or, perhaps more important, for
home use. There are few other ideas ideas on the board that are
adaptable for home use. The fact that we are so dependent on oil
and gas (and nuclear) is ridiculous. Light, magnets, WATER and
gravity are just a few of the options we have. Self-sustaining
Whirlpower is a most promising way to go.

Dave
davem t...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I give my wholehearted support.  I also want to go on your
record that I believe that your "whirlpool" is the single
generalized concept upon which reality is built (the "vortex"
seen by the mystics throughout time), of which your backyard
water-variety would then be a functionalabstract.  A fractal, if
you will.  Best of luck getting power *and* clean water out of it.

Jhan Davis
JhanDavis a...

****************************************************

Congratulations to Team Whirlpower for all the hard work and
wonderful things that have been happening to forward new
discoveries in this line of inquiry.  I firmly believe that
there should most certainly be more research and development
time invested into whirlpower.  More and more information, even
on a daily basis, is coming to light and needs to be studied by
those filled with a passion for knowledge and those wishing to
submerge themselves in the mysteries of life and the universe.
You've got my vote for things to move forward in this wonderful
line of research. Keep up all the good work!  I'll see about
doing my part!  As a matter of fact, I've been working with
computer programming and graphic design for some time now (though
I willingly admit that I'm not the best in my field) and if some
of my talent can be used to help design some sort of graphic
demonstration of the processes and theories being tested...
You can count on me to do what I can.

Chris Rabideau (Asmyth)
stirbei77 c...

****************************************************

You can count myself and Mangas in as well. I too don't
understand how others don't get this. Seems pretty simple and
natural to us.  I am working on getting a high school project
going over the summer. That way there's more money spread around
evenly for trying to build models. Hang in there, it will happen!!

--Michelle : )
fiddlette w...
Golden, Colorado

*****************************************************

David has convincingly supported his theory with a diverse array
of irrefutable platitudes and metaphors.  I think you need to
wake up and smell the roses rather than throw the baby out with
the bathwater.  You need to rise above mathematics,
experimentation, and petty theoretical consistency.  That's what
they want you to believe in.  When you have done that, you will
be able to appreciate the beauty and the simplicity of Whirlpower.
For example, "The love of money is the root of all evil."
How can you argue with this basic truth of existence?  Science will
rue the day it dismissed Whirlpower because of some perceived lack of
scientific merit.  All of the great thinkers are ridiculed in their day.

Steve Florek
Steven.Florek o...

*******************************************

I have been following some of the various threads from the
vantage point of a developmental biologist/physician interested
in the mathematics and the philosophy (and the poetry).  Can a
theory be constructed to deal with the simple but also
extraordinarily complex?  Such a theory would be invaluable.
Let�s assume that a new physics and a new biology require a
new view.  Perhaps the most important aspect of this new view
is that it enlightens the most trivial and superficial of objects.
It invigorates everyday experience and everyday language.  As
Wittgenstein said, �God grant the philosopher the ability to see
what is right before his eyes.�  I noticed David Dennard�s
(http://www.whirlpower.cc) posting on "In and Out and
Non-linearity" and the flat space of the Universe.  What are the
topological consequences of treating the surface of the body as a 
�flatspace�?  Btw�next time you see a baby, look at the back of
his head.  Humans, unlike other primates, have a left or right
handed spiral on the crown of the head (5% have mirror image
spirals).  This spiral pattern is formed early in embryogenesis
in conjunction with the growth of the brain and the stretching of
the skin combined with down growth of the hair follicles (J.
Theoret. Biol., 143:1-14, 1990).  If you ever wanted a
time-related human emblem for Whirlpower�there it is!  :-)

Steven B. Hoath, MD
Skin Sciences Institute
Children's Hospital Research Foundation
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio� 45267-0541

hoathsb u...
513-558-4903 (work)  513-558-7770 (fax)
"Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe."

*******************************************

I do believe that Whirlpower should be looked into, a whirlpool
built and everything about it tested.  No one will ever know "for
sure" if it is right or wrong without testing.  Scientists make
up all sorts of exotic particles in hopes to explain things
without knowing if they exist or not and are many times impossible
to test.  "Something like this would fit the picture" is the only
claim.  Theories and speculations built on Whirlpower fit in and
seem to answer many, as yet, unanswerable questions, and at least
it is testable!  You just can't know until it has been tested and
found out, so why not build and test?  It is stupid not to.

Loren McDonald
MisterrMac h...

***********************************
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I checked this page, and I want to know where David sees the dual radial arm 
pattern...

The top photo is a picture of a reef or island chain where it is believed 
"the maelstrom" could appear, and the other photo displays to me no dual 
pattern of any kind, looking rather like a spiral vortex with multiple 
radial arms.

Merlyn
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In a message dated 09/13/2000 2:44:27 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

<< McKubre measured 64 +/- 6 MJ of excess heat produced by one of his Arata
cells. Yet he measured no significant helium in the D2 gas or palladium
black. The cell did appear to produce relatively huge amounts of tritium,
but not enough to account for the excess heat, assuming the conventional
reaction: D + D => 3H + 1H + 4.03 MeV. That would only produce "between 1.3
KJ and 3.1 KJ." The question is, how to account for the deficit of reaction
products. >>

That's an impressive amount of tritium.  I look forward to reading the paper 
when it's published.

In his original 1990 book, Mills did predict some tritium from systems using 
D, due to the formation of small deuterino atoms which could fuse by quantum 
tunneling in low-energy collisions; and he did say that the tritium channel 
would be favored over the helium-3 channel; though he didn't say by how much. 
 The experimental evidence since then shows that the tritium channel is 
overwhelmingly favored.

After 1990, Mills discovered that the deuterinos would form dideuterino 
molecules.  Fusion by quantum tunneling would occur much more frequently in 
those small molecules than it would in standard D2 molecules.

It's been the custom in the field of cold fusion since its early days not to 
look for protons, and McKubre and Clarke seem to have adhered to that custom. 
 I imagine that it might be difficult to put a proton detector inside the 
special Arata DS cathode.

The deficit of reaction products in these experiments is accounted for by 
hydrinos and hydrino hydride compounds (HHCs), or rather deuterinos and 
deuterino hydride compounds.  Robin van Spaandonk suggested some time ago 
that the deuterino chemicals were being misidentifed as transmutations in 
cold fusion experiments, and I suspect that that will eventually turn out to 
be the case.

The production of tritium is scientifically important, because it shows that 
a nuclear reaction can occur at low temperatures.  But it doesn't open the 
door to transmutations all over the periodic table, because tritium isn't a 
transmutation itself, strictly speaking, since it doesn't involve the 
production of one element from another.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 12:43:12 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:41:11 CDT
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Sorry, your right I meant Volts, and yes this is referencing a homopolar 
generator with a uniform magnetic field.

I appreciate your help Michael.
Thanx
Merlyn

Ps how does cos(alpha) ds = dr ??


>From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
>--- Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to integrate the net force on an electron moving along a
> > straight
> > conductor through a uniform field...(induced current)
> >
> > what has been giving me fits is that the conductor is rotating about an
> > axis
> > at right angles to the conductor...(spokes on a wheel)
> >
> > there are two cases, when the centerline of the conductor passes through
> > the
> > axis...(relatively simple) and when it does not...(very difficult, the
> > force
> > along the conductor has to take into account the angle between the
> > conductor
> > and the direction of rotation)
> >
> > I just want this for comparative purposes, so velocity, radius etc. can
> > be
> > considered as constants.
>
>You don't state, but I presume you mean electric force, qE, and that you
>want to integrate between two points along some path, probably one of the
>conducting spokes you mention. The integral will give you force times
>distance or energy. If you integrate E (without the charge q) along the
>path you will get electric potential difference, whose unit is the volt.
>In this case the integral you want is (using S for the integral sign)
>S E cos(alpha) ds, where ds is incremental distance along the path, and
>alpha is the angle between ds and E.
>
>At this point your needs get confused, because "uniform field" and "induced
>current" have no obvious relationship to each other. Let me guess that you
>mean a uniform electric field that has been produced by induction. Let me
>further guess that you really mean a radial electric field, E_r, of
>constant magnitude pointing out from (or in to) your rotation axis. Then
>  cos(alpha) ds = dr, and your integral simplifies to
>  S E_r dr = E_r times delta r (the outer radius minus the inner radius).
>It does not depend on the rotation.
>
>However, since the context of your question is suggestive of a homopolar
>generator, let me guess that your E_r is really to be induced by rotation
>through a uniform magnetic field B oriented along the rotation axis. If so,
>then the magnitude of E_r is actually not constant, because the local E_r
>depends on the local velocity, omega r, which varies linearly with radius.
>Here omega is the rotation rate in radians/s = 2 pi times
>(revolutions/sec). Now we have E_r = omega r B, and
>  S E ds = S E_r dr = S (omega B) r dr
>    = (omega B)[(outer radius}^2 - (inner radius)^2]/2.
>
>All my equations are in mks (SI) units: E in V/m, B in T (1 tesla = 10,000
>gauss), radius in m, omega in rad/s.
>
>If you want energy instead of electric potential, multiply my integrals by
>the charge of an electron, 1.6x10^(-19) coulomb. The SI unit of energy is
>the joule.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=====
>Michael J. Schaffer
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 13:09:29 2000
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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:59:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Power Pyramids
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>Mitch wrote
>
>>I assume that your pyramid model consisted of four
>>equalateral triangles glued together at the edges to form a half-octahedron,
>>but I need a bit more detail. What was the approximate length of one of the
>>edges?
>
>My memories are dim. These ready-made PVC pyramids were sold at the heighth
>of the "pyramid-craze" in the 1970's, so I assume the proportions were the
>same as in the Czech patent which apparently inspired the whole shebang (I
>guess I have a copy of that patent in a file somewhere...). Length of base
>was approximately 20 cm. The pyramid had to be oriented NSEW and the sample
>was to be placed at one third of the pyramid's heighth. The other
>experiment that you were supposed to do was sharpening an used razor-blade,
>but I did not try that one. I might add that, recently (2 years ago) I
>built a carboard pyramid, using geometrical figures from a KeelyNet post,
>and it looked a lot more high and "pointy" than my old pyramid, or than the
>Egyptian Cheops pyramid. So I'm a bit confused about all that.

***{After Knuke said that the Great Pyramid was taller than it would have
been if it had equilateral triangles as faces, I was also confused, because
it looks roughly equilateral to me, and certainly not taller than it is
wide.

Checking around, I found that a fairly typical estimate holds that the
original width of one of the pyramid faces is 764 feet, and that the
original height of the structure was 486 feet--i.e., back before the
original outer coating was eroded away. (See
http://www.uq.net.au/~zzmstefa/SWP2.htm, for example.) If the pyramid were
equilateral, however, then the height would be half the length of the
diagonal across the square base. Letting d represent the diagonal across
the base of the pyramid, it follows that d = sqrt||764^2 + 764^2|| =
1080.46 feet, and if h is the height, then h = d/2 = 540.23 feet--which
means: the Great Pyramid is slightly *shorter* than it would be if the
faces were equalateral triangles, rather than taller. How much shorter?
Well, if f is the length of one of the upward-rising sides of a face, then
f = sqrt||486^2 + (d/2)^2|| = sqrt||486^2 + 540.23^2|| = 726.66 feet.

Thus in order to construct a model of the Great Pyramid you should cut four
identical triangles such that, if the width of the base is w, then the two
equal sides should each be of length (726.66/764)w = .951w--if we assume
that the generally accepted estimates for the original dimensions are
correct. However, in my opinion, the generally accepted dimensions are
*incorrect*, because the calculated value of .951w is just too close to an
equilateral triangle to be an accident. Since the original outer covering
of the structure has been eroded away over the past 4600 years, it is my
assumption that it was thicker than the present estimates indicate near the
top, and thinner near the bottom. (Erosion would be greater near the top.)

Bottom line: in my view, the faces of the original structure were
equilateral triangles, or were intended to be.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>What kind of surface was it resting on during the experiment--e.g.,
>>formica, wood, glass, etc?
>
>Wood (the top of a book shelf furniture)
>
>>Were the conditions in the room humid or dry?
>
>Standard parisian weather in an appartment, so I should think rather dry.
>
>>Was there a source of heat nearby? (E.g., was it near a window where it
>>could be exposed to direct sunlight?)
>
>It was near a window, but I don't think it received any direct sunlight.
>
>Hope that helps

***{Thanks for the info.

By the way, those who want to be overwhelmed by detail about the dimensions
of the Great Pyramid should take a look at
http://www.interpres.cz/metrolog/measures/dimensions.htm.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 13:10:10 2000
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Hi Scott,

Paradox that you discovered appears exist unconditionally from my assumptions or my logic.

Same example, assume the mirror is heavy and does not accelerate by photon hits.

>From the observer seeing the mirror moving, reflection have changed the frequency. But observer in the same frame of reference, light frequency would not be modified.

Actually, moving mirror case can be visualized by seeing objects images(on frame of the observer) trough a moving mirror. If mirror getting closer, images are getting closer two times faster, and blue-shift occurs. On the opposite movement, red-shift. Ill
usion of the mirrors is also valid on moving mirrors.

Note: I realized that I made an physical interpretation error on equation

 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m

Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with the photon.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 13:50:59 2000
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Merlyn,

Thanks for taking a look.  The pattern is there if you look at the photo in 
whole.  Same thing happens with a huge powerful hurricane as it reaches it 
maximum, and in spiral galaxies.  A recent report just came out on the 
Whirlpool Galaxy and radial arm galaxies showing they all have the dual 
radial arm pattern, some are just easier to see than others.

It is real easy to see in hurricanes how the lever action of the wobble is 
stirring and driving the hurricane then it starts to fade as the hurricane 
reaches full strength, and you see less wobble.  Just like a top would 
straighten up if spin is increased.  We see the reverse as spin decreases 
the wobble increases.

And thank you for an actual comment on the subject on topic.

That's the way you do it.

And I compliment you on some of your observations.  Maybe old Merlyn still 
has something to contribute.

David


>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Maelstrom
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:13:31 CDT
>
>I checked this page, and I want to know where David sees the dual radial 
>arm
>pattern...
>
>The top photo is a picture of a reef or island chain where it is believed
>"the maelstrom" could appear, and the other photo displays to me no dual
>pattern of any kind, looking rather like a spiral vortex with multiple
>radial arms.
>
>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 15:27:11 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:25:38 +1100
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In reply to  Tstolper aol.com's message of Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:14:00 EDT:
[snip]
>The deficit of reaction products in these experiments is accounted for by 
>hydrinos and hydrino hydride compounds (HHCs), or rather deuterinos and 
>deuterino hydride compounds.  Robin van Spaandonk suggested some time ago 
>that the deuterino chemicals were being misidentifed as transmutations in 
>cold fusion experiments, and I suspect that that will eventually turn out to 
>be the case.

Actually, I suspect it may be the case for some transmutation results, but
not for all of them. The experiments that produce an isotope distribution
similar to that of a fission reaction are hardly likely to be
hydrino/deuterino compounds, and are highly likely to be exactly what they
appear to be.
Furthermore, NAA wouldn't lie about actual elements present, though SIMS
could be confused by Hy/D'ino compounds.

>
>The production of tritium is scientifically important, because it shows that 
>a nuclear reaction can occur at low temperatures.  But it doesn't open the 
>door to transmutations all over the periodic table, because tritium isn't a 
>transmutation itself, strictly speaking, since it doesn't involve the 
>production of one element from another.
>
>Tom Stolper
I suspect that hydrino/deuterino hydrides can also fuse with higher
elements. Note that these can be very small and are also negatively charged,
therefore not only do they not experience a "Coulomb barrier", it's actually
a "Coulomb slide", i.e. they "want" to approach heavier nuclei, and in fact
the higher the positive charge on the nucleus, the greater the attraction!

This would therefore open the door to transmutations across the periodic
table.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 16 15:31:01 2000
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Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
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Since the Ancient Egyptians had copper, zinc, and bronze working abilities that were used
for making gem-studded bronze saws, they must've had the ability to draw copper or bronze wire.

Simple primary "Wet Cells" capable of several amperes at less than a volt could easily be made
from
copper and zinc immersed in aqueous copper sulphate, vinegar, ammonium chloride**, or caustic
alkalis, in clay pots.

Now then, from an Antigrav standpoint, several turns (n) of uninsulated copper or bronze
wire wrapped around those 2 1/2 to 80 ton blocks of stone, then hooked to
the "battery" should give a lifting force of  n* I * Area * 30  (newtons).

Easy to get 2 1/2   to  80 Tonnes "crane effect" there.   :-)

Since the lift energy = mgh  = 9800 joules/tonne-meter it would necessarily be
a slow but effective operation.

** Made by roasting camel dung with salt.

Regards,    Frederick




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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Useful?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:14:22 +1100
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I just found out that one can create PDF documents online at 

http://cpdf1.adobe.com/index.pl?BP=IE .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 00:17:48 2000
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From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
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Subject: You're not the only one Dennard!
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Ok.  That's it.  I must say something or I shall bust a gut!

I understand the passion that Dennard feels and I understand the reason why 
he promotes his theory with such ruthless determination. I understand why 
he adds such glowing testimonials to the end of his so-called Declaration.  I 
understand that he feels that he is right and the rest of us are wrong.  I 
understand these things because I share his passion.

I too have a conviction born of both experience and intuition, but my pet 
subject is Bessler's wheel.  Some of you will be aware of my claims that we 
can harness energy directly and continuously from gravity and that Johann 
Bessler first did so back in 1712.  I put forward what I felt to be a convincing 
argument that he was genuine.  I argued, as Dennard does, that we should 
be taking notice of the evidence and re-assessing the reasons why we 
cannot accept such a proposal.  I was subjected to a barrage of criticism, 
argument and invective too.  I also received considerable support just as 
Dennard is now.  But then I realised that if I wanted to prove my point there 
was only one argument that would satisfy the critics - a working model.  I am 
still working on the problem and making, I hope, some progress but I have 
kept quiet because the critics are right - it's all very well shouting and 
demanding this and that, but in the end if it's your idea then you should put 
your money where your mouth is.  Put up or shut up.

I'm sick of Dennard's shameless self-promotion;  his domineering attitude; 
his relentless, aggressive dismissal of anyone who disagrees; his naive 
name-dropping.  We can all name-drop but take his frequent mentions of the 
BBC for example.  In my experience the BBC will look at a number of 
options for programs but a final decision is taken after many many draft 
proposals have been submitted.  The same is true for any broadcasting 
group.  And even if a film is produced, in my experience the BBC will adopt 
the classical physics stance and pour scorn on such as ideas as David's - 
and my own.  They will begin with what appears to be a balanced 
examination of the subject-matter.  They will assess the claims of the 
inventor or whatever and then the slaughter will begin - slowly and gently they 
will pick holes in the proposals and eventually prove beyond doubt that the 
man (or woman) behind the ideas is completely and utterly off his trolley!

But let us assume that he gets what he wants.  Shall we hear a deafening 
silence from you David if your much-vaunted theories collapse like a pack of 
cards when the loudly demanded actual whirlpool is built and fails to deliver?

OK.  I'll retreat back to my shell now.

John
John Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 00:19:22 2000
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Force on an electron
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--- Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ps how does cos(alpha) ds = dr ??
> 
> >In this case the integral you want is (using S for the integral sign)
> >S E cos(alpha) ds, where ds is incremental distance along the path, and
> >alpha is the angle between ds and E.

Good question. In general, cos(alpha) ds  is not dr.  Here I had already
jumped ahead ( I shouldn't have done so) to the special case where E has
only a radial direction component, E = E_r. Then the angle alpha is also
the angle between ds and dr.  Now, in this case, draw a short vector ds 
along your integration path. The distance it advances in radius is
cos(alpha) ds. 

If E had an azimuthal component, then my calculation would be wrong. You
would have an azimuthal E component if the current in the coil producing
the axially directed magnetic field were to vary in time; it would be just
conventional induction, as is present in transformers.







=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 01:13:53 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: uluburun ship wreck hall
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:12:15 -0700
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Poetic. :-)

 http://www.bodrum-museum.com/depts/uluburun.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 01:15:30 2000
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Dr. George Bass at Texas A&M University is Dr. Robert Bass' Brother.   :-)

 http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0699toc/6cover6-shipwreck.shtml

The Uluburun Shipwreck occurred about 1300 B.C.

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 01:42:40 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: You're not the only one Dennard!
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:40:39 PDT
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What a way to try and jump on my coat tails and put me down at the same 
time.  Now that's shameless.  :)


>From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: You're not the only one Dennard!
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:07:55 +0100
>
>Ok.  That's it.  I must say something or I shall bust a gut!
>
>I understand the passion that Dennard feels and I understand the reason why
>he promotes his theory with such ruthless determination. I understand why
>he adds such glowing testimonials to the end of his so-called Declaration.  
>I
>understand that he feels that he is right and the rest of us are wrong.  I
>understand these things because I share his passion.
>
>I too have a conviction born of both experience and intuition, but my pet
>subject is Bessler's wheel.  Some of you will be aware of my claims that we
>can harness energy directly and continuously from gravity and that Johann
>Bessler first did so back in 1712.  I put forward what I felt to be a 
>convincing
>argument that he was genuine.  I argued, as Dennard does, that we should
>be taking notice of the evidence and re-assessing the reasons why we
>cannot accept such a proposal.  I was subjected to a barrage of criticism,
>argument and invective too.  I also received considerable support just as
>Dennard is now.  But then I realised that if I wanted to prove my point 
>there
>was only one argument that would satisfy the critics - a working model.  I 
>am
>still working on the problem and making, I hope, some progress but I have
>kept quiet because the critics are right - it's all very well shouting and
>demanding this and that, but in the end if it's your idea then you should 
>put
>your money where your mouth is.  Put up or shut up.
>
>I'm sick of Dennard's shameless self-promotion;  his domineering attitude;
>his relentless, aggressive dismissal of anyone who disagrees; his naive
>name-dropping.  We can all name-drop but take his frequent mentions of the
>BBC for example.  In my experience the BBC will look at a number of
>options for programs but a final decision is taken after many many draft
>proposals have been submitted.  The same is true for any broadcasting
>group.  And even if a film is produced, in my experience the BBC will adopt
>the classical physics stance and pour scorn on such as ideas as David's -
>and my own.  They will begin with what appears to be a balanced
>examination of the subject-matter.  They will assess the claims of the
>inventor or whatever and then the slaughter will begin - slowly and gently 
>they
>will pick holes in the proposals and eventually prove beyond doubt that the
>man (or woman) behind the ideas is completely and utterly off his trolley!
>
>But let us assume that he gets what he wants.  Shall we hear a deafening
>silence from you David if your much-vaunted theories collapse like a pack 
>of
>cards when the loudly demanded actual whirlpool is built and fails to 
>deliver?
>
>OK.  I'll retreat back to my shell now.
>
>John
>John Collins, author of:-
>"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
>URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 02:07:55 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Engine patent
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:06:17 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Does anyone know anything about patent US03977191 or it's inventor?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 03:00:43 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: You're not the only one Dennard!
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At 8:07 AM 9/17/0, John Collins wrote:
[snip]
> But then I realised that if I wanted to prove my point there
>was only one argument that would satisfy the critics - a working model.  I am
>still working on the problem and making, I hope, some progress
[snip]

I say bravo to that!


>
>I'm sick of Dennard's shameless self-promotion;
[snip]

Bill Beaty has stated flatly he will not put up with extensive
self-promotion.  Other topics where the promoter has his own list, etc.,
have been moved to vortex-b, excluding, of course, discussion of specific
experiments, or occasional announcements.  It is curious that after two
years of "shameless self-promotion"  of whirlpower, with barely a hint of
either data or theory presented for discussion, or even a high school level
quantification of the ideas, and an unwillingness to do so, and in the face
of continued polemic devoid of technical content, that nether Bill Beaty
nor members of the list have seen fit to call for moving discussion of
whirlpower to vortex-b.  Further, no reasonable assistance has been
provided to John Schnurer or others willing to make serious attempts at
experimentation, so it appears there is no prospect in sight of any
meaningful theoretical or experimental outcome from further effort at
discussion.  This list was formed for serious scientific discussion of
anomalous science, originally the Potapov type devices.  Lately the signal
is just about lost in the noise, and the noise has been ugly.  As always,
ALL the parties involved in the ugliness are responsible for it.  In my
opinion, it would be far better to have almost no postings at all than to
have to put up with the content level of K12.pop.science.culture discussed
endlessly with the demeanor of sci.physics.fusion that we came here to
escape.  The unending mindless vitriol is akin to a Chinese water torture.
Discussion of novel and whacko ideas is wonderful, as well as the
occasional discussion of an old gem like Bessler's wheel, but beating the
same old stuff to death year after year, without progess, by definition, is
NOT NOVEL.   In my opinion the whirlpower topic has had vast quantities of
bandwidth, way more than its share, and it is long past time to move it to
vortex-b.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 03:54:23 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:52:12 PDT
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I totally disagree.  Whirlpower is a ZPE device under construction.

Dr. Michio Kaku's team says, "great potential", and are redoing the 
Whirlpower Website, no charge, professional graphics.  Talk about 
progress!!!!!!!!

Dr. Kaku has stated, "our passage from a 0 to a 1 civilization is probably 
abut something so simple it is just no body ever thought about it before".

What is happening is a lot of you folks have me on block and only read those 
that reply.  Your ignorance is showing.

The reason for this reply is that you folks have your own little click going 
on and have taken over what is supposed to be a public list and run off 
everyone else.  I have seen it going on.  I have been here for years you 
know.   You don't even discuss what is supposed to be discussed a lot of the 
time.  And never discuss Whirlpower.  You just keep trying to put me down.  
It seems name calling, cursing, anything is acceptable as long as it is 
about me.

But, as soon as good discusion of Whirlpower is actually starting to happen, 
then a post like this comes up.

Technical content?  You folks carry on endlessly with numbers that has 
nothing to do with anything.  Theories based on unproven theories, numbers 
heaped on numbers.  There is no content to it.

The top authorities agree with me.  Hawking, Rubin, Kaku.

"Scientists are going to have to give up their most precious beliefs", says 
Dr. Rubin.  Sure, you don't want to hear it.  Nobody wants to be shown to be 
wrong.  But better to be shown wrong that to be shown a fool.

"Cosmology is not science if it cannot predict the data", says Dr. Hawking, 
and none of it has, none of it is science, as Dr. Rubin points out in ABC 
NEWS Transcript I have posted at my website.

You folks are not even talking science, you are talking unproven theory.  
Mostly disproven.  Proof of flat space disposes of all science based on 
curved space.

Stay in the dark ages if you want.  The Hubble is showing us new stuff all 
the time, "beyond scientist's wildest dreams", states Dr. Rubin.

I am showing you what is wrong, and what has not been tested and propose new 
tests and even school children write in and agree with.  You think that is 
not important, you are so high and mighty.  I say Bull Hockey to that.  Dr. 
Kaku says that is what is needed most, real tests on strength, something 
tangible, not something way out is space.

I have proposed a challange to this list over and over that has been ignored 
and is unmet.  Not just here but across 10,000 archived pages.

John has consistantly tried to misrepresent eveything I have ever tried to 
say.  I have answered his questions time and time again, on this list and 
others, and he has been told so on another list.  And his actions are 
announced as scientifically unethical.

We are now seeing the first real discussion of Whirlpower on this list.  You 
don't like it, fine, but don't try and stop it.  We have built the first 
whirlpools ever built by man in all recorded history.  Don't you get it?

If you don't, you just don't want to.

Horace, your comments are a bogus as I have ever seen.

David






>From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: You're not the only one Dennard!
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:03:59 -0800
>
>At 8:07 AM 9/17/0, John Collins wrote:
>[snip]
> > But then I realised that if I wanted to prove my point there
> >was only one argument that would satisfy the critics - a working model.  
>I am
> >still working on the problem and making, I hope, some progress
>[snip]
>
>I say bravo to that!
>
>
> >
> >I'm sick of Dennard's shameless self-promotion;
>[snip]
>
>Bill Beaty has stated flatly he will not put up with extensive
>self-promotion.  Other topics where the promoter has his own list, etc.,
>have been moved to vortex-b, excluding, of course, discussion of specific
>experiments, or occasional announcements.  It is curious that after two
>years of "shameless self-promotion"  of whirlpower, with barely a hint of
>either data or theory presented for discussion, or even a high school level
>quantification of the ideas, and an unwillingness to do so, and in the face
>of continued polemic devoid of technical content, that nether Bill Beaty
>nor members of the list have seen fit to call for moving discussion of
>whirlpower to vortex-b.  Further, no reasonable assistance has been
>provided to John Schnurer or others willing to make serious attempts at
>experimentation, so it appears there is no prospect in sight of any
>meaningful theoretical or experimental outcome from further effort at
>discussion.  This list was formed for serious scientific discussion of
>anomalous science, originally the Potapov type devices.  Lately the signal
>is just about lost in the noise, and the noise has been ugly.  As always,
>ALL the parties involved in the ugliness are responsible for it.  In my
>opinion, it would be far better to have almost no postings at all than to
>have to put up with the content level of K12.pop.science.culture discussed
>endlessly with the demeanor of sci.physics.fusion that we came here to
>escape.  The unending mindless vitriol is akin to a Chinese water torture.
>Discussion of novel and whacko ideas is wonderful, as well as the
>occasional discussion of an old gem like Bessler's wheel, but beating the
>same old stuff to death year after year, without progess, by definition, is
>NOT NOVEL.   In my opinion the whirlpower topic has had vast quantities of
>bandwidth, way more than its share, and it is long past time to move it to
>vortex-b.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 04:57:50 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Horace,

I totally agree with you, this is serious abuse of contributors who spend time and resources on the subject you stated. This abuse become routine, and degraded the quality, and reshaped the profile of the list already. I dont expect anybody having serious
 scientific arguments will not subscribe this list, after witnessing this thing. 



Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Bill Beaty has stated flatly he will not put up with extensive
> self-promotion.  Other topics where the promoter has his own list, etc.,
> have been moved to vortex-b, excluding, of course, discussion of specific
> experiments, or occasional announcements.  It is curious that after two
> years of "shameless self-promotion"  of whirlpower, with barely a hint of
> either data or theory presented for discussion, or even a high school level
> quantification of the ideas, and an unwillingness to do so, and in the face
> of continued polemic devoid of technical content, that nether Bill Beaty
> nor members of the list have seen fit to call for moving discussion of
> whirlpower to vortex-b.  Further, no reasonable assistance has been
> provided to John Schnurer or others willing to make serious attempts at
> experimentation, so it appears there is no prospect in sight of any
> meaningful theoretical or experimental outcome from further effort at
> discussion.  This list was formed for serious scientific discussion of
> anomalous science, originally the Potapov type devices.  Lately the signal
> is just about lost in the noise, and the noise has been ugly.  As always,
> ALL the parties involved in the ugliness are responsible for it.  In my
> opinion, it would be far better to have almost no postings at all than to
> have to put up with the content level of K12.pop.science.culture discussed
> endlessly with the demeanor of sci.physics.fusion that we came here to
> escape.  The unending mindless vitriol is akin to a Chinese water torture.
> Discussion of novel and whacko ideas is wonderful, as well as the
> occasional discussion of an old gem like Bessler's wheel, but beating the
> same old stuff to death year after year, without progess, by definition, is
> NOT NOVEL.   In my opinion the whirlpower topic has had vast quantities of
> bandwidth, way more than its share, and it is long past time to move it to
> vortex-b.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regretfully,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 05:15:07 2000
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Subject: Re: You're not the only one Dennard! - correction
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Please ignore the extra "not" on the below.

"I dont expect anybody having serious scientific arguments will not subscribe this list, after witnessing this thing."

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 05:15:07 2000
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Hi,

Does anybody encountered on literature fusion attempt with liquid H/D with absorbing metals on SC state?

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 05:59:50 2000
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> Bill Beaty has stated flatly he will not put up with extensive
> self-promotion.  Other topics where the promoter has his own list, etc.,
> have been moved to vortex-b, excluding, of course, discussion of specific
> experiments, or occasional announcements.  It is curious that after two
> years of "shameless self-promotion"  of whirlpower, with barely a hint of
> either data or theory presented for discussion, or even a high school level
> quantification of the ideas, and an unwillingness to do so, and in the face
> of continued polemic devoid of technical content, that nether Bill Beaty
> nor members of the list have seen fit to call for moving discussion of
> whirlpower to vortex-b.  Further, no reasonable assistance has been
> provided to John Schnurer or others willing to make serious attempts at
> experimentation, so it appears there is no prospect in sight of any
> meaningful theoretical or experimental outcome from further effort at
> discussion.  This list was formed for serious scientific discussion of
> anomalous science, originally the Potapov type devices.  Lately the signal
> is just about lost in the noise, and the noise has been ugly.  As always,
> ALL the parties involved in the ugliness are responsible for it.  In my
> opinion, it would be far better to have almost no postings at all than to
> have to put up with the content level of K12.pop.science.culture discussed
> endlessly with the demeanor of sci.physics.fusion that we came here to
> escape.  The unending mindless vitriol is akin to a Chinese water torture.
> Discussion of novel and whacko ideas is wonderful, as well as the
> occasional discussion of an old gem like Bessler's wheel, but beating the
> same old stuff to death year after year, without progess, by definition, is
> NOT NOVEL.   In my opinion the whirlpower topic has had vast quantities of
> bandwidth, way more than its share, and it is long past time to move it to
> vortex-b.


---

Bill has always seemed to me to be more than fair and very patient, but
since this Dennard thing seems to be so annoyingly displeasurable for so
many perhaps a vote might cause him to think about moving David to
vortex-b.

I'll start the thread (Vote to move Dennard to vortx-b).

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 06:01:57 2000
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I vote to move him.

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 06:07:12 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: uluburun ship wreck hall
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>Poetic. :-)
>
> http://www.bodrum-museum.com/depts/uluburun.htm

It kind of makes you wish you had a time machine or something, don't it? ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 06:11:50 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
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>Since the Ancient Egyptians had copper, zinc, and bronze working abilities
that were used
>for making gem-studded bronze saws, they must've had the ability to draw
copper or bronze wire.

After seeing the Ross Group stuff, it crossed my mind that perhaps the
flying carpet stories might have had something more powering them than a
hooka.  If you wove a fine copper or gold wire through the wool dielectric
material, all you would need was the power supply.  Maybe the hooka was
necessary... ;)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 06:25:37 2000
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 06:23:52 PDT
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This is some serious stuff the will attract serious scientists to a very 
serious discussion on ZPE devices under construction.


>From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav 
>Technology
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:10:28 -0400
>
> >Since the Ancient Egyptians had copper, zinc, and bronze working 
>abilities
>that were used
> >for making gem-studded bronze saws, they must've had the ability to draw
>copper or bronze wire.
>
>After seeing the Ross Group stuff, it crossed my mind that perhaps the
>flying carpet stories might have had something more powering them than a
>hooka.  If you wove a fine copper or gold wire through the wool dielectric
>material, all you would need was the power supply.  Maybe the hooka was
>necessary... ;)
>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:23:29 2000
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Subject: Re: Power Pyramid, Nature's Microwave Concentrator?
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

The Centimeter Wavelength Microwave/Infrared Radiation
from molecular radiation at ~ 300 K should be concentrated
by the Pyramid configuration.

Hi All,

Speaking of waves (I like this pyramid stuff),
you will probably find the following references interesting:

Matt Person wrote:

A new theory called the Theory of Elementary Waves, (TEW),
by Lewis Little explains the results of the double slit experiment.

http://www.yankee.us.com/TEW/

Steven Florek wrote:

For those who are not too familiar with the implications of the 
double-slit experiments we are talking about, here is a very 
approachable introduction to the subject:

http://www2.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/kenny/papers/quantum.html

This paper discusses photons, but it is just as applicable to 
electrons, C60 atoms, and even macroscopic objects ultimately.

Jack writes:

I think Mitchell Jones will like the TEW.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:23:42 2000
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Yes, maybe we can convince minds to discuss these stuff on vortex-b, please.

John Fields wrote:
> 
> I vote to move him.
> 
> John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:26:35 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:

> 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
>
>Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
the photon.

This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
then something must lose energy.

I'll think about it.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:38:36 2000
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Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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The problem with B is that you will still see whirl power over there. 

Filters work (sometimes :) 

Colin Quinney

At 05:22 PM 09/17/00 +0300, Hamdi wrote:
>Yes, maybe we can convince minds to discuss these stuff on vortex-b, please.
>
>John Fields wrote:
>> 
>> I vote to move him.
>> 
>> John Fields
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:40:30 2000
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Light is not thrusting itself, it is gravity driven.  You guys have it all 
backwards.


>From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:22:21 -0700
>
>At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
>
> > 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
> >
> >Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
>direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
>acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
>the photon.
>
>This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
>when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
>then something must lose energy.
>
>I'll think about it.
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Inc.
>4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
>Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185
>512-346-3017 (FAX)
>http://www.earthtech.org
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:44:34 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 07:43:26 PDT
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You guys are running scared.  What are you afraid of?  That Whirlpower might 
actually have a real discussion on this list?  Oh no, please, let's not let 
a real discussion of Whirlpower happen.  Somebody might be interested.  That 
will make us look like fools.

Too Late.  You already do!!!

David


>From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:42:35 -0400
>
>The problem with B is that you will still see whirl power over there.
>
>Filters work (sometimes :)
>
>Colin Quinney
>
>At 05:22 PM 09/17/00 +0300, Hamdi wrote:
> >Yes, maybe we can convince minds to discuss these stuff on vortex-b, 
>please.
> >
> >John Fields wrote:
> >>
> >> I vote to move him.
> >>
> >> John Fields
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 07:57:56 2000
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Hi David,

This statement of yours has me really confused! I'm not a physicist,scientist,
mathematician or even a good engineer, but I certainly have observed thru my
life's experiences, that gravity appears uni-directional. How then, does a
simple incandescant light bulb placed in the center of an empty room, apparently
radiate equally in all directions when energized? What am I overlooking?

Jon Flickinger

David Dennard wrote:

> Light is not thrusting itself, it is gravity driven.  You guys have it all
> backwards.

<snip>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 08:28:52 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:27:24 PDT
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Jon,

Pressure.  The vacuum is fluid.  Light travels just like a bubble.

I have vacuum pipe light test described in THE ROSE.  A NASA scientist has 
reported on another list constuction underway of "Dennard's Interferometer".

You can read THE ROSE in the archive.  I can explain the vacuum light pipe 
in more detail if you wish.

Main thing to understand is light is not thrusting itself across a void 
curved frictionless space.  That is why all the flat space teams say we are 
returning to the cosmological constant.  Einstein's original idea whereby 
gravity gives the energy of motion to all things.  Of course we know the 
story.  He dropped it when he got famous.  I figure he just could not stand 
up to the goof balls like we see here on this list, all full of themselves, 
puffed up with pride, stoked, full of wine.  These guys are not serious 
scientists, they are imposters.

David


>From: Jon Flickinger <jonfli informatics.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:52:20 -0500
>
>Hi David,
>
>This statement of yours has me really confused! I'm not a 
>physicist,scientist,
>mathematician or even a good engineer, but I certainly have observed thru 
>my
>life's experiences, that gravity appears uni-directional. How then, does a
>simple incandescant light bulb placed in the center of an empty room, 
>apparently
>radiate equally in all directions when energized? What am I overlooking?
>
>Jon Flickinger
>
>David Dennard wrote:
>
> > Light is not thrusting itself, it is gravity driven.  You guys have it 
>all
> > backwards.
>
><snip>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 08:44:06 2000
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Message-ID: <39C4E5A1.47FFD5EB austininstruments.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:39:13 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
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David Dennard wrote:
> 
> You guys are running scared.  What are you afraid of?  That Whirlpower might
> actually have a real discussion on this list?  Oh no, please, let's not let
> a real discussion of Whirlpower happen.  Somebody might be interested.  That
> will make us look like fools.
> 
> Too Late.  You already do!!!

---

David, I speak only for myself, but I'm sure no one here is even
_walking_ scared.

The only one who's been keeping a real discussion from happening is you,
and you know it.

Time and time again when you've been asked to supply anything meaningful
you've always either been evasive or tossed the question away as being
irrelevant, and then you spout quotes from knowledgeable folks as though
their words are somehow going to confer authority upon you.  Bizarre,
when you consider that the people you quote are established members of
the scientific community which you are so quick to denigrate.

Another trick of yours is to grab on to something "new" and claim it as
your own; as if you had already known about it and it was now somehow
bearing witness to your previously proclaimed "truth".  ZPE seems to be
your latest acquisition inasmuch as you've used it recently in two of
your posts and I can't recall ever having seen you mention it before. 
Kind of like you latch onto "buzzwords" for a while to try to make your
rhetoric catchy.  
  
As far as looking like fools goes, David, if _we_ do then consider how
much lower on the food chain you appear to be! 

Especially after your disrupting Scott and Hamdi's interesting thread
with your ridiculous garbage.

I really think that all you're trying to do is attract attention to
yourself and the only way you know how to do it is by acting like a
spoiled, disruptive child.

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 09:03:02 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <200009171310.JAA04206 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology

Knuke wrote:

> FJS wrote:

> >Since the Ancient Egyptians had copper, zinc, and bronze working abilities
> that were used
> >for making gem-studded bronze saws, they must've had the ability to draw
> copper or bronze wire.
>
> After seeing the Ross Group stuff, it crossed my mind that perhaps the
> flying carpet stories might have had something more powering them than a
> hooka.  If you wove a fine copper or gold wire through the wool dielectric
> material, all you would need was the power supply.  Maybe the hooka was
> necessary... ;)

Not enough "hooka power", Knuke. You need the ~ 30 Tesla Magnetogravity Field
and some goatskin bladders filled with Vinegar or Ammonium Chloride (Sal Ammoniac) and water,
with Copper-Tin (~ 0.5 volts) or Copper-Zinc (~ 1.10 volts)electrodes in them you could get
several amps
through the wires.

There is no reason that this ancient civilization couldn't have had the "recipes" for some
pretty potent "Wet Cell" primary batteries.

The wires could be gold, as you say.

Note the 20 mil separation between the limestone blocks on the pyramids.
Was this because they needed that spacing to get the wires off the blocks?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Knuke
>
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:19:32 2000
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Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:39:13AM -0500, John Fields wrote:
> 
> David, I speak only for myself, but I'm sure no one here is even
> _walking_ scared.
> 
> The only one who's been keeping a real discussion from happening is you,
> and you know it.
> 
> Time and time again when you've been asked to supply anything meaningful
> you've always either been evasive or tossed the question away as being
> irrelevant, and then you spout quotes from knowledgeable folks as though
> their words are somehow going to confer authority upon you.  Bizarre,
> when you consider that the people you quote are established members of
> the scientific community which you are so quick to denigrate.

That seems true to me.  David a few weeks ago I asked you to explain
what you meant about flat space.  You quoted a press release (but
no actual links to research).  I mailed you back explaining that
space could still be infinite and curved, and you went quiet for
a couple of weeks.  Next thing you're back claiming that space is
flat again.  What gives?

Joe

-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:26:38 2000
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Hi All,
   Ok, enough. I'm getting a little tired of this constant bickering
over whirlpower. I felt sympathetic to Mr. Dennard's cause because he
said he was handicapped and because I don't see him turning a profit on
what he is doing. I thought others were being unfairly critical. Now it
has been dragging on so long that it is getting really old. This weekend
Mr. Dennard has said that his work is finally getting the recognition it
deserves from credentialled scientists whom he names. These scientists
being;
1) Dr. Michio Kaku  mkaku aol.com
2) Dr. Stephen Hawking  S.W.Hawking damtp.cam.ac.uk
3) Dr. Vera Rubin  rubin dtm.ciw.edu
   Here are their email addresses for anyone who wants to verify David
Dennard's claims of support from these individuals. I know from
experience that Dr. Kaku and Dr. Hawking's staff will answer you if you
send them questions. So why don't you just quit you fighting and ask
THEM if they are aware of and support Mr. Dennard's theories and then
post the results?
   Hopefully this is a mutually acceptable solution to this problem
which will not unfairly hurt anyone's feelings. As the saying goes (in a
slightly paraphrased form); "facts talk, bullshit walks".
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:31:06 2000
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so then, in open, interstellar space where gravity is negligible, light should
slow down or stop completely if it is gravity driven. Also its velocity should
vary based on the gravity of the source from which it originated.
MJ

David Dennard wrote:

> Light is not thrusting itself, it is gravity driven.  You guys have it all
> backwards.
>
> >From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> >Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
> >Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:22:21 -0700
> >
> >At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >
> > > 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
> > >
> > >Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
> >direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
> >acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
> >the photon.
> >
> >This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
> >when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
> >then something must lose energy.
> >
> >I'll think about it.
> >
> >
> >Scott Little
> >EarthTech International, Inc.
> >4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> >Austin TX 78759
> >512-342-2185
> >512-346-3017 (FAX)
> >http://www.earthtech.org
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:49:05 2000
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Hi David,
Replies below;

David Dennard wrote:

> Pressure.  The vacuum is fluid.  Light travels just like a bubble.

This is a contradiction. Actually an oxymoron. You cannot have a "fluid Vacuum"
fluid implies liquid motion of a substance, vacuum implies lack of any
substance, nothing, null, void. A bubble displaces a physical substance, air, to
float on the breeze.

> I have vacuum pipe light test described in THE ROSE.  A NASA scientist

Name please.

> has
> reported on another list

Name and url of list please to verify this from it's archives.

> constuction underway of "Dennard's Interferometer".

Great.

> Main thing to understand is light is not thrusting itself across a void
> curved frictionless space.  That is why all the flat space teams say we are
> returning to the cosmological constant.  Einstein's original idea whereby
> gravity gives the energy of motion to all things.

Hmmmmm. What proof can you give that the term "gravity" does not simply describe
the interactions between electrical/magnetic fields and mass? You use gravity as
though it were it's own unique "thing" and I haven't ever seen any really
convincing proof of that.

> Of course we know the
> story.  He dropped it when he got famous.

Good plan. Have world changing idea and then drop it because you decide you are
"famous enough".

> I figure he just could not stand
> up to the goof balls like we see here on this list, all full of themselves,
> puffed up with pride, stoked, full of wine.

MJ is ALWAYS proud of himself and usually totally trashed on Jack Daniel's and
peyote. Actually though the "puffed up" part is from the second helping of baked
beans I had at dinner last night (watch out!).

> These guys are not serious
> scientists, they are imposters.

I never claimed to be a serious scientist. I am a truck driver with an IQ of 145
who just enjoys thinking about things and having a place to share my thoughts. I
don't try to sell any of my crazy ideas to anyone but they are there if they
prove worthwhile. So come on, be realistic.If your ideas change the world then
great, crow about it then. So far they haven't. Neither have mine.
MJ

>
>
> David
>
> >From: Jon Flickinger <jonfli informatics.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
> >Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:52:20 -0500
> >
> >Hi David,
> >
> >This statement of yours has me really confused! I'm not a
> >physicist,scientist,
> >mathematician or even a good engineer, but I certainly have observed thru
> >my
> >life's experiences, that gravity appears uni-directional. How then, does a
> >simple incandescant light bulb placed in the center of an empty room,
> >apparently
> >radiate equally in all directions when energized? What am I overlooking?
> >
> >Jon Flickinger
> >
> >David Dennard wrote:
> >
> > > Light is not thrusting itself, it is gravity driven.  You guys have it
> >all
> > > backwards.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:55:07 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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At 7:57 AM 9/17/0, John Fields wrote:
>I vote to move him.
>
>John Fields


I think, rightfully so, the procedure in the past has been to move a topic,
not a person.  Vortex-b was created as an outlet to discuss any kind of
ideas as well as to permit any mode of discussion. By that means no one is
denied an opportunity to discuss any subject with those who have an
interest, and the group as a whole has some chance for refuge from abusive
and inappropriate use of bandwidth without the (unthinkable) requirement
for a heavy handed moderator.  Note that his IS a "lightly moderated"
group, it is not a free-for-all usenet group.  It is also privately owned,
paid for by Bill Beaty, and hopefully covered by contibutors.  Abuse of
policy CAN ultimately result in removal or temporary banishment of a
person.

I'll vote for moving the whirlpower topic to vortex-b, assuming such a vote
will be recognized by Bill Beaty.  (There is no explicit policy for such a
voting procedure, though it is not without precedent here.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 10:58:38 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MJ offers solution to whirlpower controversy
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At 1:33 PM 9/17/0, Mike Johnston wrote:
>Hi All,
>   Ok, enough. I'm getting a little tired of this constant bickering
>over whirlpower. I felt sympathetic to Mr. Dennard's cause because he
>said he was handicapped and because I don't see him turning a profit on
>what he is doing. I thought others were being unfairly critical. Now it
>has been dragging on so long that it is getting really old. This weekend
>Mr. Dennard has said that his work is finally getting the recognition it
>deserves from credentialled scientists whom he names. These scientists
>being;
>1) Dr. Michio Kaku  mkaku aol.com
>2) Dr. Stephen Hawking  S.W.Hawking damtp.cam.ac.uk
>3) Dr. Vera Rubin  rubin dtm.ciw.edu



It is irrelevant who supports the whirlpower concept or what merits it may
have.  The only issue at hand, in my opinion, is whether the members of the
list prefer discussion of whirlpower be on vortex-l or vortex-b.  I prefer
moving it to vortex b.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 11:01:06 2000
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References: <3.0.1.32.20000917003659.01382948 earthtech.org>
	 <3.0.1.32.20000917081248.01388ef8 earthtech.org>
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unless the reflected photon acquires a boost of energy from the electrons at
the surface of the mirror. This energy could come from the surface absorption
of SOME of the incoming photons. Mirrors never reflect 100% of the light that
strikes them. Or instead of a boost maybe just the fact that the mirror can
only absorb so much and beyond that the remainder are repulsed from the
surface. If you look at it on the atomic/molecular level then each
molecule/atom has it's own emf and if the emf of the molecules at the surface
is strong enough it could conceivable repulse incoming photons of lesser field
strength. This would be akin to magnets of opposite polarity pushing each other
away and the losses would be negligible in that case. Just a thought.
MJ
P.S. Ever look at a scanning electron photograph of molecules? Notice how they
look like galaxies, which look like whirlpools......AAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!
hehehehehe

Scott Little wrote:

> At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
>
> > 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
> >
> >Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
> direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
> acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
> the photon.
>
> This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
> when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
> then something must lose energy.
>
> I'll think about it.
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 11:43:31 2000
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Joe,

I thought you got it.  It is common knowledge now.  Flat space has been 
proven.  Science as we know it is bull.

Of couse some basics still apply.  The Earth is part of a solar system, and 
goes around the Sun, it is spherical.  That has been proven, and not that 
long ago, with better telescope vision.

Now we have the Hubble.  Things are changing.  People who have made a 
lifetime of acting like they know something don't like it.  Tough  toenails. 
  The change is here.

Mainly they don't like me telling them.  I just report the news and propose 
a theory that is testable.  Too bad they are too drunk to understand.

Michael, I thought you had some sense but I guess not.  I never said 
anything you just posted I said.  I said the top scientists agreed with me.  
And posted their quotes.  I does so happen that Kaku's webmaster has written 
and I have talked to him on the phone and what I reported is true.  What 
Kaku says for sure I don't know.  Hawking has replied to me and backed me up 
on another list about his quote "that cosmology is not science if it cannot 
predict the data".  I have yet to get him to help with Whirlpower.  Rubin 
has been getting my information but has never replied.

You misrepresented what I said.  These top scientists agree our science is 
not correct.  Which means there is no way dogma can dispose of Whirlpower.

I have come to the conclusion I have nothing more to say to this list at 
this time.  Any that want to talk Whirlpower and help with my project, you 
know where my website and list are.

When I get some more news I'll let you know.  If anyone can suggest a list 
where there are some sober real scientists doing serious work please let me 
know.  This list is a joke.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc




>From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:18:47 +0100
>
>On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:39:13AM -0500, John Fields wrote:
> >
> > David, I speak only for myself, but I'm sure no one here is even
> > _walking_ scared.
> >
> > The only one who's been keeping a real discussion from happening is you,
> > and you know it.
> >
> > Time and time again when you've been asked to supply anything meaningful
> > you've always either been evasive or tossed the question away as being
> > irrelevant, and then you spout quotes from knowledgeable folks as though
> > their words are somehow going to confer authority upon you.  Bizarre,
> > when you consider that the people you quote are established members of
> > the scientific community which you are so quick to denigrate.
>
>That seems true to me.  David a few weeks ago I asked you to explain
>what you meant about flat space.  You quoted a press release (but
>no actual links to research).  I mailed you back explaining that
>space could still be infinite and curved, and you went quiet for
>a couple of weeks.  Next thing you're back claiming that space is
>flat again.  What gives?
>
>Joe
>
>--
>Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
>Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
>Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, 
>joe tao.org.uk]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 12:33:15 2000
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From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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Hi David,
   I will respond to you this one last time below by plugging in some quotes
from your previous messages where appropriate;

David Dennard wrote:

> Michael, I thought you had some sense but I guess not.

Never assume that. My parents came to the same conclusion.hehe

> I never said
> anything you just posted I said.

Yes, you did.

> I said the top scientists agreed with me.

And to agree with you they have to be aware of you.

>
> And posted their quotes.  I does so happen that Kaku's webmaster has written
> and I have talked to him on the phone and what I reported is true.  What
> Kaku says for sure I don't know.

You said; <Dr. Michio Kaku's team says, "great potential"> If you meant "great
potential for a website" you should have said that. So Kaku himself isn't even
aware that you are alive? Ok.

> Hawking has replied to me and backed me up
> on another list about his quote "that cosmology is not science if it cannot
> predict the data".

Dr. Hawking has a team of graduate students who respond to his emails. Please
post his reply to you in which he backs you up.
Above you say he backs up his OWN quote! Big difference!

> I have yet to get him to help with Whirlpower.

Oh, he backs you up but not on "whirlpower". What exactly does he back you up
on?! The excessive price of tea in China?

> Rubin
> has been getting my information but has never replied.

But you said <The top authorities agree with me.  Hawking, Rubin, Kaku.> and how
can they "agree with you" if they won't even respond to you?!?! (which just
shows they are a lot smarter than I am <grin>).


>
> You misrepresented what I said.

No I did NOT!

> These top scientists agree our science is
> not correct.  Which means there is no way dogma can dispose of Whirlpower.

Their comments have NOTHING to do with you personally!
End of discussion for me. Bye David. Good luck, I hope you are right and you get
all the fame and glory you want but as of NOW I am out of it. If you had
originally said what you say above now I wouldn't have "misunderstood" you. But
you didn't. You worded things to make it look like it was one way when it
wasn't. Good science should stand on it's own and not need the backing of "great
minds" (which implies that lesser minds, like us cannot possibly understand
you). See what you do? Now finally above you are backed into a corner and admit
that none of the big name scientists, who you claim support your ideas, even
know you are alive?
Shit. Now MJ is feeling bad. I have this picture in my mind of a poor
handicapped person who has one thing in life which may elevate him beyond his
limitations and allow him to feel "normal" and worthwhile as a human being. So
he tries and tries to get others to listen to him and in the end resorts to
"fibbing" just a bit to help his cause. Or maybe he actually believes that the
people he quotes DO support his ambitions from behind the scenes. Now ruthless,
nasty, uncaring MJ has gotten offended and
pulled back the curtain in the wizards palace to expose the tiny, helpless man
behind it. Double shit. Now I have guilt.
MJ

>
>
> I have come to the conclusion I have nothing more to say to this list at
> this time.  Any that want to talk Whirlpower and help with my project, you
> know where my website and list are.
>
> When I get some more news I'll let you know.  If anyone can suggest a list
> where there are some sober real scientists doing serious work please let me
> know.  This list is a joke.
>
> David Dennard
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 13:12:30 2000
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Mike Johnston wrote:

...

> Shit. Now MJ is feeling bad. I have this picture in my mind of a poor
> handicapped person who has one thing in life which may elevate him beyond his
> limitations and allow him to feel "normal" and worthwhile as a human being. So
> he tries and tries to get others to listen to him and in the end resorts to
> "fibbing" just a bit to help his cause. Or maybe he actually believes that the
> people he quotes DO support his ambitions from behind the scenes. Now ruthless,
> nasty, uncaring MJ has gotten offended and
> pulled back the curtain in the wizards palace to expose the tiny, helpless man
> behind it. Double shit. Now I have guilt.

---

No need to.  A coup de grace is often the most merciful way to end
needless continuous suffering.

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 16:16:40 2000
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:15:33 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav
 Technology
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Knuke -

> If you wove a fine copper or gold wire through the wool dielectric
> material, all you would need was the power supply.

Remember the case of the UFO that came down in eastern Russia where 
they recovered some melted pieces, and there was some quartz net-like 
filligree with gold threaded through it? I was on the Compuserve 
Encounters forum back then, and some nabob from NASA showed up real 
special like just to debunk it, saying that some refrigeration unit 
on satellites (or something like that) might have something aboard 
having a similar structure. It all seemed rather odd to me at the 
time.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 17 16:30:55 2000
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On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 11:39:27AM -0700, David Dennard wrote:
> Joe,
> 
> I thought you got it.  It is common knowledge now.  Flat space has been 
> proven.  Science as we know it is bull.

David,  you are talking bull....  I'm not going to believe you just
because you say so.

You have _not_ shown anywhere on this list where flat space has
been "proven".  Either put up or shut up please.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 05:31:12 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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>At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
>
>> 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
>>
>>Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
>direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
>acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
>the photon.
>
>This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
>when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
>then something must lose energy.
>
>I'll think about it.

The mirror changes momentum and energy in balance to the photon
transactions, as viewed in any reference frame.  The photon is RED shifted
upon reflection from the mirror's ORIGINAL reference frame, which is moving
relative to the mirror as seen from the mirror AFTER the transaction.  It
is blue shifted form an approaching oberver's point of view, but the mirror
has LOST kinetic energy and gained NEGATIVE momentum form that reference
frame.

I think perhaps the answer lies in part in the fact the photon reflection
is a two step process.  The photon is actually absorbed and then emitted by
the reflection process, so the differential equation for the
momentum/energy exchange process may not make sense at a particle
transaction level.   Since I am very short on time, the following response
is just extracted from some of my prior posts, so the rest of this response
is a bit wordy and digressive. Sorry.

The full momentum of the photon, and the corresponding energy, are absorbed
by the mirror, and then re-emitted at a frequency shifted by doppler shift.
The doppler shift occurs in ANY reference frame viewing the momentum
exchange, including the mirror's original reference frame.  The mirror
accelerates when the momentum is absorbed, because its momentum is
increased by that delivered by the photon.  When the photon is emitted (by
the reflection process) it is doppler shifted.  The momentum exchange
again, in any refernace frame, is that carried off by the photon. The
momentum carried by the photon, in any reference frame, is always exactly
the opposite of that applied to the mirror.  The energy exchange also
matches perfectly.

Plank discovered:

   E = h * nu                     (1)

where E is the energy (measured in joules) nu is the frequency, and h is a
constant named after Plank.  Therefore if the frequency of light
increases, its energy increases, and therefore the energy per unit of time
increases.

When light is emitted by a light source moving at speed v toward you, then
the frequency of that light is increased (blue shifted, or made more blue)
and if the source is moving away from you the frequency is decreased (red
shifted, made more red.)  Blue light carries more energy per photon than
red light does.

The formula to compute nu' the frequency sensed, when a light source
moving at speed v toward you (v negative if away from you) is given by:

   nu' = nu * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2)   (1a)

thus we can see that the perceived energy per photon E' is also shifted
proportionately:

   E' = E * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2)      (1b)

Whether you work out the problem by full realtivistic analysis or by simple
doppler shift applied to low velocity exchanges, everthing balances,
energy, momentum, and mass.  Even the relativistic mass added or removed
from the mirror by its change in velocity is exactly matched to the energy
delived by the photon by the relation:

   m = E/c^2   (Einstein)          (2)

The photon can thus be considered to "carry" or transact a corresponding
mass.  It is for this reason I have often said in the past here that BOTH
energy and mass are conserved in a closed system, unless there is a source
of free energy, and if there is a source of free energy that source can
theoretically be identified by a mass increase over time.

Some starting point equations relating to photons and waves:

   lambda = c/nu                    (3)

   p = E/c = (h)(nu)/c = h/lambda    (4)

Suppose the "mirror" is 100 percent black, albedo zero.  If photons are
absorbed at rate n photons per second for time t, then the total reaction
force is given by:

   F = (n p)/t                      (5)

and the power absorbed by the mirror is given by:

   P = (E n)/t                       (6)

It is of interest the amount of energy absorbed by the mirror per unit of
momentum supplied to the mirro is obtained by substituting (4) into E/p:

   E/p = E/(E/c) = c               (7)

Notice that the amount of energy per unit of momentum imparted to the mirro
is *independent of the wavelength* of the photon.  In fact, it is
independent of anything else, as it is constant.  I suppose this is self
evident, especially considering equation (4), but it is  important to the
basic issues at hand.  As energy per photon goes up, so does momentum, and
vice versa. They have a linear relationship.

To determine the power absorbed by the mirro per unit of thrust we devide
(6) by (5) to obtain:

   P/F = (n E)/(n p) = E/p      (8)

but from (7) E/p = c, so:

   P/F = c                     (9)

and we immediately see:

   P = c F                     (10)

We know that one kg-force is equalto 9.807 newtons, or 9.807 kg-m/s^2.  So
we now see that to produce force (thrust) using photons of any energy we
need the mirror to absorb a photonic power per kg of thrust of at least:

   P = (3x10^8 m/s)(9.807 kg-m/s^2) = 2.94x10^9 kg-m^2/s^3         (11)

   P = 2.94x10^9 watts                 (12)

This is why photonic rockets are not so great.  It's the same process in
reverse, as is the case where photons are reflected from the mirror, but
the departing photon momentum and energy are changed by the total doppler
shift imparted to the mirror.

Unilike particles, the photons leave their source with constant velocity c,
yet arrive at the moving mirror at the same velocity c, regardless of the
mirror's velocity.  If non-zero rest mass particles did this it would be
obvious that free energy were gained somehow by the reacting particles
accelerating between the time launched and the time absorbed by the mirror.
If, with expenditure of a fixed amount of energy, you can add the same
momentum to a departing mass being at any velocity, independent of the
energy initially supplied, you have free energy.

The photon arrives at the same velocity regardless of the energy cost of
emitting it.  It would appear on the surface, when looked at as a particle,
to have the requisite characteristics for providing free energy.  However,
nature extracts her toll even with the photon, and even at low velocities.
The energy toll is extracted by nature in the form of the red shift, a
result of the Doppler effect.  The amount of change in wavelength of light,
delta lambda, is proportional to the ratio of Vr/c, where Vr is the
recession speed of the departing sail relative to the light source, the
rate at which it departs.  If lambda0 is the wavelength emitted, and lambda
is the wavelength absorbed at the sail then:

   lambda0 = lambda + (delta lambda)               (13)

   (delta labda)/lambda0 = Vr/c.                    (14)

So:

    (delta lambada) = (lambda0)(Vr)/c              (15)

As the recession velocity increases, lambda decreases.  Equation (4)
provides in general:

   (p)(lambda) = h                     (4)

and, substituting (15) into (13):

   lambda = lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)             (16)

If p0 is the energy imparted when Vr is zero, and p1 is the energy imparted
at Vr, we have:

    (p0)(lambda0) = h             (17)

and:

    (p1)(lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)) = h             (18)

so:

    p1 = (1-Vr/c)P0             (19)

and we can see that p1 is diminsihed as Vr increases. Further the amount
deltap is diminished is given by:

    deltap = p1 - p0 = (1-Vr/c)P0 - p0             (20)

    deltap = (-Vr/c)p0             (21)

so the incrmental momentum, mother natures' tax, is proportional to the
velocity of recession.  Since E is proportional to p, the same can be said
of deltaE.

Energy is conserved.

A key point regarding energy is that energy and mass are inseperable, at
least with regard to the electro-magnetic (EM) force.  The universe may or
may not spontaneously create mass and therefore energy from the vacuum, but
it seems certain to me that mass and energy must remain in the balance E/m
= c^2.  That is because photons carry momentum.  To conserve momentum, a
photon absorbed by a mass must receive the kinetic energy K corresponding
to the change in velocity due to the momentum change, and K=E.  However, by
the special theory of relativity, that results in a corresponding increase
in apparent mass of the absorbing body by the ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta
m).  Therefore *both* mass and energy are always conserved in an EM
exchange, as is the ratio E/m.  The process also works in reverse, i.e.
atoms radiating, due to electrons (or other particles) dropping energy
levels, must lose the corresponding mass.

If this idea of the conservation of the mass/energy balance in the
universe, with regards to the EM force, is accepted, it has consequences
about where to search for energy, and how to test a device for production
of energy.  First, since we are surrounded by mass, we are surrounded by
energy, which was self evident to begin with.  Unfortunately the concept
gives no direct clues about how to obtain the energy, other than to convert
the mass to photons.  However, excluding nuclear energy devices, typical
free energy devices are thought to violate either the first or second laws
of thermodyanmics, thus are sometimes referred to as "type one" or "type
two" devices, depending on which law is violated.  Also, quantum mechanics
gives us the possible loophole of action at a distance, i.e. the
possibility of quantum linkages transcending space and time, thus the
possibility of instantaneously transferring energy (and thus mass) or mass
(and thus energy) between differing points in the universe.  Lastly, solar
energy is considered renewable, and thus free.  Even though the source of
solar energy is nuclear, it is located very remotely from the point of
application, thus maybe deserves its own classification.  This seems to
leave us with five fundamental classifications of free energy devices:

Type 1: Violates the law of conservation of energy.  If you accept my
assertion of a constant universal m/E ratio, then this type of device must
create both mass and energy from nothing.  Some vacuum energy devices,
including black holes, might be of this kind.  However it might be shown
that such is really only the result of a type 4 action.  The "borrowed
energy" then would not come from the vacuum, but somewhere else in the
universe - a big shell game.

Type 2: Violates the laws of entropy:  A special intelligent "Maxwell's
demon" magically transfers energy from one compartment to another even if
the two compartments are the same or opposing temperatures.  This is
normally attempted at the molecular level by selectively taking advantge of
the properties of faster or more energetic molecules in the gaussian
distribution of molecular energies.  The universal balance of mass and
energy remains constant, but the energy is recycled.

Type 3: Lowers the kinetic state of matter to a less excited state, and
transfers that energy to photons and/or kinetic energy of components of the
event.   This is the source of nuclear power.  Also relates to hydrino
formation.  If much "ground state" matter could be converted to a lower
ground state, then a depleatable, though vast, source of of power would be
available, with a corresponding loss of mass to the universe.  If some
means could be found to the recycle the low energy state mass via one of
the other type devices, a renewable energy source would then be available.

Type 4: Transfers, by instantaneous action at a distance, energy/mass from
elsewhere in the universe to the point of need/action.  This is the source
of energy for ZPE(lattice) devices.

Type 5: Utilizes energy beamed from somewhere else at the speed of light.
This is the primary means of powering the ecosystem - via solar radiation.
This would also be the basis for ZPE(vacuum) devices.

If this is a complete clasification, then there are only five basic
strategies for obtaining free energy.

Type 4 devices are especially interesting.  For example, it may be possible
to determine, by experiment, a link (or lack of a link) between tunneling
and gravity.  This could permanently put an end to the question of whether
gravity and/or inirtia is a second order EM effect. This could be done by
placing one or more electron tunneling devices (e.g tunnel diodes) in
various orientations in the ambient gravitational field and also in a
centrifuge.  If tunneling depends only on electric field potential, and is
independent of gravitational potential, end of the issue, as the current
will remain constant at a given electric potential in all situations.
Further, if tunneling is independent of acceleration, then a means for an
infinite ISP spacecraft drive is available.  An infinite ISP drive provides
a means of borrowing an infinite amount of energy while going from A to B.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 07:29:33 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>I think, rightfully so, the procedure in the past has been to move a topic,
>not a person.  Vortex-b was created as an outlet to discuss any kind of
>ideas as well as to permit any mode of discussion. . . .

I think everyone is signed up for Vortex-b, so Dennard would not lose any
audience. It is merely a convenient way to sort messages into different
incoming mail boxes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 08:01:17 2000
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From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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>I vote to move him.
>
>John Fields

I think it would be a good idea to move him.  A newsgroup devoted to 
the discussion of vortex dynamics would be very useful.  When you 
have someone like David Dennard who knows nothing about vortex 
dynamics posting such a large quantity of nonsense it detracts from 
the potential value that a vortex discussion group could have.  Now 
someone could know nothing about vortex dynamics but still contribute 
something useful by doing experiments or reporting on experiments 
that other investigators do.  I have seen nothing in that respect 
from David Dennard. In the case of Jed Rothwell we have a person who, 
like David Dennard knows nothing about physics, but his careful and 
objective reporting on new energy generating techniques is of very 
great value.

As a contrast to some of the pure crap that has been posted here by 
David Dennard I will next do a posting discussing some valid points 
of vortex dynamics.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 08:22:18 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 04:34 AM 9/18/00 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

The mirror changes momentum and energy in balance to the photon
>transactions, as viewed in any reference frame.  The photon is RED shifted
>upon reflection from the mirror's ORIGINAL reference frame, which is moving
>relative to the mirror as seen from the mirror AFTER the transaction.  It
>is blue shifted form an approaching oberver's point of view, but the mirror
>has LOST kinetic energy and gained NEGATIVE momentum form that reference
>frame.

Agreed.  I don't think there's a paradox anymore.  Thanks.

The mirror
>accelerates when the momentum is absorbed, because its momentum is
>increased by that delivered by the photon.  When the photon is emitted (by
>the reflection process) it is doppler shifted.  The momentum exchange
>again, in any refernace frame, is that carried off by the photon. The
>momentum carried by the photon, in any reference frame, is always exactly
>the opposite of that applied to the mirror.

Since the photon makes a 180 degree turnaround, it's original momentum just 
changes sign (i.e. direction).  Thus, to conserve momentum, the mirror must 
move off with twice the photon's original momentum.

Type 4: Transfers, by instantaneous action at a distance, energy/mass from
>elsewhere in the universe to the point of need/action.  This is the source
>of energy for ZPE(lattice) devices.

Why do you think such transfers would be instantaneous?  The ZPE presumably 
consists of real EM radiation which is constrained to travel at c.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 08:37:41 2000
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Subject: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
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--============_-1242831142==_ma============
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   The concept of a negative viscosity as a force that maintains the 
rotation of a vortex was introduced by Victor Starr over 30 yeas ago. 
In the time since then the concept has been totally rejected and is 
regarded basically as the "cold fusion" of meteorology.  As an 
example, Starr's (Starr, V. P., 1975  Further Aspects of Eddy Theory 
of Tornadoes. Rivital Geofis Sci 2., 2, 89-92) last paper on the 
application of negative viscosity to tornado theory has received no 
citations in the quarter century since publication.  The most 
significant factor in this poor reception is most likely the lack of 
any basic theory to explain the phenomena.

   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves 
propagating within a vortex can transport momentum in a way that does 
in fact have the effect of a negative viscosity.  For example see (JD 
Moller and MT Montgomery, Vortex Rossby waves and hurricane 
intensification in a baratropic model, J Atmos Sci 56 (9) 1197-1223 
May 1999).  The theory is that motions within a vortex force the 
generation of vortex Rossyb waves which then generates the negative 
viscosity effect that works against and balances with the normal 
shear viscosity.  In private communications and seminars the small 
group of investigators researching this phenomena actually have 
called it "negative viscosity" but because of the "cold fusion" 
connotations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers 
that have been accepted for publication.



Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
--============_-1242831142==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

  The concept of a negative viscosity as a force that maintains the
rotation of a vortex was introduced by Victor Starr over 30 yeas ago. 
In the time since then the concept has been totally rejected and is
regarded basically as the "cold fusion" of meteorology.  As an example,
Starr's (<fontfamily><param>New_York</param>Starr, V. P., 1975  Further
Aspects of Eddy Theory of Tornadoes. <italic>Rivital Geofis Sci
</italic>2., <bold>2</bold>, 89-92</fontfamily>) last paper on the
application of negative viscosity to tornado theory has received no
citations in the quarter century since publication.  The most
significant factor in this poor reception is most likely the lack of
any basic theory to explain the phenomena. 


  Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
propagating within a vortex can transport momentum in a way that does
in fact have the effect of a negative viscosity.  For example see (JD
Moller and MT Montgomery, Vortex Rossby waves and hurricane
intensification in a baratropic model, J Atmos Sci 56 (9) 1197-1223 May
1999).  The theory is that motions within a vortex force the generation
of vortex Rossyb waves which then generates the negative viscosity
effect that works against and balances with the normal shear viscosity.
 In private communications and seminars the small group of
investigators researching this phenomena actually have called it
"negative viscosity" but because of the "cold fusion" connotations this
terminology has not been inserted in any papers that have been accepted
for publication.


Lawrence E. Wharton

NASA/GSFC code 913

Greenbelt MD 20771

(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

--============_-1242831142==_ma============--

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Rick writes:
>Remember the case of the UFO that came down in eastern Russia where 
>they recovered some melted pieces, and there was some quartz net-like 
>filligree with gold threaded through it? I was on the Compuserve 
>Encounters forum back then, and some nabob from NASA showed up real 
>special like just to debunk it, saying that some refrigeration unit 
>on satellites (or something like that) might have something aboard 
>having a similar structure. It all seemed rather odd to me at the 
>time.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

I never did participate in any of the Compuserv discussions, so I missed
this one entirely.  A look at how NASA has always done heat transfers for
refrigeration purposes and just a general knowledge of Earth based
refrigeration systems would lead you to think that the NASA guy was blowing
a lot of smoke.  A Roth type (not Ross, as I previously mentioned) device
could have been the original use of this material, it is hard to say.  What
really got me going about that device was the simplicity of it, and the fact
that it really could have been made at any given time in history after we
quit swinging from trees, practically.

Fred's comments about batteries are valid too, and led me to speculate on
the following as possibilities:

Fred is an ancient wizard who was blasted out of the Egyptian era to the
present by an accidental overcharging of a goat bladder battery.

Fred has a time machine in his back yard cleverly disguised as a washtub,
and visits the past just to look around whenever his wife goes to the store.

Fred is a run-of-the-mill engineer sent from the future to help the
boneheads of this age get over a few of the rough spots in our mistaken
educational process.

These things and many others I have had reason to ponder.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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You guys are just running scared.  You never could stand any discussion of 
Whirlpower here and you still just don't get or just don't want to.

Whirlpower is not about the tornado type vortex.  Whirlpower is about the 
whirlpool, which is unknown to science.  Backed up by top vortex experts in 
many countries.

And now Dr. Michio Kaku's team is backing Whirlpower, it is official and 
offically submitted and it is a go for the TOE.  "Great potential, let's 
make it happen" says Michael Phillips, Dr. Kaku's good friend and webmaster.

"Scientists will go kicking and screaming" says Dr. Vera Rubin.  You guys 
are kicking and screaming.  Suppressing my work on this list will only make 
me look stronger.  Do it.  Do it now so I can announce suppresion everywhere 
I go.

David Dennard
"The mouse that roared"
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:35:47 -0400
>
>   The concept of a negative viscosity as a force that maintains the
>rotation of a vortex was introduced by Victor Starr over 30 yeas ago.
>In the time since then the concept has been totally rejected and is
>regarded basically as the "cold fusion" of meteorology.  As an
>example, Starr's (Starr, V. P., 1975  Further Aspects of Eddy Theory
>of Tornadoes. Rivital Geofis Sci 2., 2, 89-92) last paper on the
>application of negative viscosity to tornado theory has received no
>citations in the quarter century since publication.  The most
>significant factor in this poor reception is most likely the lack of
>any basic theory to explain the phenomena.
>
>   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
>propagating within a vortex can transport momentum in a way that does
>in fact have the effect of a negative viscosity.  For example see (JD
>Moller and MT Montgomery, Vortex Rossby waves and hurricane
>intensification in a baratropic model, J Atmos Sci 56 (9) 1197-1223
>May 1999).  The theory is that motions within a vortex force the
>generation of vortex Rossyb waves which then generates the negative
>viscosity effect that works against and balances with the normal
>shear viscosity.  In private communications and seminars the small
>group of investigators researching this phenomena actually have
>called it "negative viscosity" but because of the "cold fusion"
>connotations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers
>that have been accepted for publication.
>
>
>
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 10:44:07 2000
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At 10:03 AM 9/18/00 -0700, David Dennard wrote:


>You guys are just running scared.  You never could stand any discussion of 
>Whirlpower here and you still just don't get or just don't want to.

Since you clearly perceive that this list is not receptive to your ideas, 
then why don't you unsubscribe?

You could then spend more quality time with real whirlpool 
enthusiasts...and we could pursue our narrow-minded ideas in peace.

Please.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 10:45:38 2000
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Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology

Knuke wrote:
> 
> A Roth type (not Ross, as I previously mentioned) device
> could have been the original use of this material, it is hard to say.  What
> really got me going about that device was the simplicity of it, and the fact
> that it really could have been made at any given time in history after we
> quit swinging from trees, practically.

Where do you get this Roth info?

FWIW, the ancients were convinced that the gold color of urine meant that it
Must contain Gold.  Thus the roasting of animal dung (saturated with urine) with
salt (which was readily available) led to the "discovery" of  Ammonium Chloride,
Sal Ammoniac (NH4Cl). which is now made by reacting Ammonia (NH3)with
Hydrogen Chloride (HCl). 

Nowadays, they are using the K2CO3 leached out of Manure Ash to effect  Cold Fusion. :-)

Progress?

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 11:13:48 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:12:03 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav
 Technology
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Knuke wrote:

>Fred is an ancient wizard who was blasted out of the Egyptian era to the
>present by an accidental overcharging of a goat bladder battery.

LOL! I submit as proof of the above:

At 11:40 AM -0700 9/18/00, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>FWIW, the ancients were convinced that the gold color of urine meant that it
>Must contain Gold.  Thus the roasting of animal dung (saturated with 
>urine) with
>salt (which was readily available) led to the "discovery" of 
>Ammonium Chloride,
>Sal Ammoniac (NH4Cl). which is now made by reacting Ammonia (NH3)with
>Hydrogen Chloride (HCl).


I think he's been there, done that.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 11:27:27 2000
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I like it here.  I like the contrast.  Love your enemy, as they say.  Works 
for me!!  :)

Many have been perceptive till you guys start your little click going.
It reminds me of being back in Jr. High.  Such fun!!!

And give me another hit off that wine bottle.  Wheee!!!!!  Another toke for 
the road.  Wheeeeee!!!!

My work is exactly what this list is about.  Your's too.  Only you all try 
to bully me, put me down, call me names.  Yet others clearly see and have 
stated interest, then you guys start up again.  And I've seen you do it to 
others.

Why not keep you mouths shut if you can't make a comment on the topic or 
have civil discussion or have something good to say and let folks talk to me 
about Whirlpower that want to.  That what the list rules say.  They are 
violated constantly but since Bill is part of your click I guess you all 
have him held hostage.  He can't even enforce his own rules.

David




>From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:32:19 -0500
>
>At 10:03 AM 9/18/00 -0700, David Dennard wrote:
>
>
>>You guys are just running scared.  You never could stand any discussion of
>>Whirlpower here and you still just don't get or just don't want to.
>
>Since you clearly perceive that this list is not receptive to your ideas,
>then why don't you unsubscribe?
>
>You could then spend more quality time with real whirlpool
>enthusiasts...and we could pursue our narrow-minded ideas in peace.
>
>Please.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 12:06:53 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Vote to move Dennard to vortex-b
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At 10:23 AM 9/18/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I think, rightfully so, the procedure in the past has been to move a topic,
>>not a person.  Vortex-b was created as an outlet to discuss any kind of
>>ideas as well as to permit any mode of discussion. . . .
>
>I think everyone is signed up for Vortex-b, so Dennard would not lose any
>audience. It is merely a convenient way to sort messages into different
>incoming mail boxes.
>
>- Jed


I immediately withdrew from vortex-b when it was formed.  I don't have time
for that kind of thing.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 12:07:06 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 10:11 AM 9/18/0, Scott Little wrote:

>Since the photon makes a 180 degree turnaround, it's original momentum just
>changes sign (i.e. direction).  Thus, to conserve momentum, the mirror must
>move off with twice the photon's original momentum.


I think there is a small difference from the momentum transfer 2p that
depends on the point of view, i.e. the doppler shift observed.


>
>Type 4: Transfers, by instantaneous action at a distance, energy/mass from
>>elsewhere in the universe to the point of need/action.  This is the source
>>of energy for ZPE(lattice) devices.
>
>Why do you think such transfers would be instantaneous?  The ZPE presumably
>consists of real EM radiation which is constrained to travel at c.


Interesting that you should notice!  It made sense to me when I originally
posted this on vortex 12/22/97!  I don't actually recall the details at
this point, but I believe there was clear justification in my mind at the
time.  Below I have dug up some postings of mine from that period from the
vortex archive that give some clues as to my state of thinking at the time.
I was busy speculating wildly, so who knows?  I think the logic was
something like the following:  Atoms were theorized by Hal Puthoff to be
maintained in a non-radiating state by zero point energy (ZPE).  However,
large masses of atoms, like those in the center of the earth, or large
stars, require vast amounts of energy to avoid collapse.  The wavelength of
the energy to support an atom comes from the very low end of the spectrum,
so if the ZPE "flows" or propigates straight-line from the universe, like
light, then there is a problem obtaining the required amount of energy in
the low end of the spectrum to support the central volume of large masses.
Below, I proposed the possibility of a mechanism to "downshift" the energy
spectrum.  A variant of that theory might be that most particles, including
the ZPE carrying virtual photons, are quantum entagled with other
particles, possibly even at the time of the big bang, thus zero point
energy might be carried deep within large masses instantaneously via
entaglement interactions.  Energy removed from any one part of the spectum
would thus be quickly replenished.  This was probably all just cooked up as
food for thought, or conversation, as usual.  My only avaiable contribution
to the vortex synergy of the time, which was phenominal I think.  Sorry to
lose so much of it.


At 6:33 PM 12/21/97, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I'd suggest photons only have no *rest* mass (in fact no independent rest
>existence), as their energy upon absorbtion is transferred into the
>increased mass of the absorbing electron (particle).  However, how is it
>that photons have both transferable momentum and energy, and a velocity,
>and yet no mass?  This just doesn't make any sense to me.   The energy of
>the photon is wholly or partially transfered into electron mass by (delta
>E) = (delta m)*c^2.   Photon's paths are bent in a gravitatational field.
>Photons cannot escape a black hole.  Photons must have mass.  Photons are
>composed of EM fields, which have mass corresponding to their energy. The
>photons must carry the corresponding mass.
>
>The notion that photons have mass can explain the lack of symmetry in the
>universe with regard to antimatter, as well as a major source of dark
>matter.  If electrons have mass corresponding to their energy, then both
>mass and energy must forever be tied together. You can not create or
>annihilate one without creating or annihilaing the other.  Since
>particle-antiparticle annihilations create corresponding EM radiation, i.e.
>convert particle mass to photons, matter-antimatter annihilations can not
>even diminish the matter inside a black hole.  At the big bang, the
>formation of many massive black holes containing more anitmatter than
>matter could explain the absence of the corresponding amount of anitmatter
>in the universe.  It wasn't just chance that the balance shifted to trapped
>antimatter, for if it had shifted the other way we would be made of
>antimatter and the names would simply be reversed.  For the most part,
>anitmatter not ending up in black holes would have to have been converted
>to outbound photons, which, since the universe must be a black hole, will
>one day be inbound.  Only a small portion of the mass of the universe must
>be free matter.
>
>It seems unlikely that the balance of a process involving so many particles
>so uniformly basted from a point would end up more than just a small
>fraction out of symmetry.  Almost the entirety of the mass of the universe
>must still be locked in black holes, in almost equal proportions of matter
>and antimatter in each of the original archetypal black holes.  The
>archetypal black holes must be composed, in large fraction, of photons,
>which have only one speed: c.  Therefore they must not be singularities
>like latter day black holes, which are formed from collapsing matter stars.
>At the Swartzchild radius the archetypal black holes must consist entirely
>of energetic photons.  The collison of architypal black holes, especially
>in large numbers, due to tidal effects, could permit the formation of a
>composite Swartzchild envelope with open central cusps, and thus photon
>jets, from which matter could condense.

>... here's a poser for you.  The mass of the universe was supposedly
>at one point.  Such a point is obviously a black hole.
>
>How'd we get outa there?

At 7:58 AM 12/27/97, Horace Heffner wrote:

[snip]
>The energy of ZPE is distributed as the cube of the
>frequency.  Most of the energy is in very high frequencies.  One of the
>problems with a device like US 5,590,031 is that it is driven by
>comparatively low frequenciies of the ZPE spectrum, thus has very limited
>energy available.  Granted the main principle of the device is downshifting
>the energy, but the frequencies tapped by the device are still very
>limiting - assuming the device has even been built and works.
>
>A single electron in an orbital path, except by QM fiat, should radiate a
>lot of energy.  A significant portion of the ZPE spectrum would be required
>to hold together a few feet thick slab of Ni.   Tapping much energy from
>ZPE requires some mechanism for "downshifting" the energy. In other words,
>the ZPE energy at a specific frequency is either transparent to Ni-Fe or
>not. If not transparent, then the energy is quickly consumed, and could be
>expected to be converted to heat. Such photon energy could not get through
>the miles of Ni-Fe earth core.   The bulk of ZPE radiation that is
>transparent can not be consumed unless it is somehow downshifted in
>frequency. There must be some mechanism for doing this downshifting, and
>control of that mechanism would have great utility.
>
>If ZPE does hold together atoms, then there is both (1) some mechanism for
>the required energy to penetrate through hundreds of miles of metal (i.e.
>electron clouds) (2) some means for it to be linked to the orbiting
>electrons at each level to compensate for radiation losses and (3) a means
>for this to occur without a large portion of the energy converted to theat.
>If we can disrupt (1) or (3) plus downshift very high frequencies (beyond
>typical x-ray/gamma range), there is a very large energy source available.
>
>
>One possibility for ZPE meeting the mutually opposed requirements (1)
>through (3) is that some kind of ZPE retransmission would have to go on
>between adjacent layers of atoms, thus preventing heat absorbtion, and
>recycling the ZPE energy that prevents atoms from collapsing. If this is
>the case, we are still stuck with no means to get at the more energetic
>portion of the spectrum.  However, intervening in the retransmission might
>help create a lower energy state of matter, and thus open up avenues of
>exploration like the hydrino.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Vortex-L is an online community, and the overall desires of the group do
guide what happens here.  Yes, let's move all discussions of Dennard's
physics (Whirlpower, etc.) to vortexB-L.  For those who aren't subscribed,
the command is basically the same as for vortex-L:

    Send a blank message to vortexb-L-request eskimo.com,
    with the single word "subscribe" in the subject line.
    Note that vortexB-L has no rules. 

Whirlpower has certainly been done to death here, so lets move on and give
other topics a chance to develop.  Vortex-L can only support a finite
number of discussions, since highly active threads tend to (ahem!)
SUPPRESS new ones from starting or continuing.  Also, longterm attempts by
individuals to dominate the forum are a blatent violation of netiquette. 
How can you know when you're violating netiquette?  Easy: 

  LISTEN TO COMPLAINTS FROM YOUR FELLOWS AND TAKE THEM VERY SERIOUSLY.



On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:
> Suppressing my work on this list will only make me look stronger.  Do
> it.  Do it now so I can announce suppresion everywhere I go. 

No such luck.  Instead we give you your own separate forum, vortexB-L. 
But I was under the impression that you already had your own forum.  If
so, then I don't understand why you're here attempting to dominate this
one, and so making enemies from those who could have been supporters. 

Mr. Dennard should note that Vortex-L is populated by extremely openminded
fringe science practitioners.  "Scientists" aren't trying to suppress him. 
He is being "suppressed" by his fellow crackpots.  A wise and humble
person learns much from opponents.  The opposite kind of person hides bad
behavior behind justifications, and then plays the martyr.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:29:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Help me fix Vortex-L
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I suggested:

>>Since you clearly perceive that this list is not receptive to your ideas,
>>then why don't you unsubscribe?

to which Dennard responded:

>I like it here.  I like the contrast.  Love your enemy, as they 
>say.  Works for me!!  :)

Well, that clinches it!  Vortex-L has been infected with a malignancy that 
feeds on reactions provoked from list members.

I suggest we try to starve it to death.

Please join me in NEVER responding to ANY of Dennard's future posts.  That 
should promptly cut the size of the Dennard wart in half since he'll only 
be talking to himself.  Eventually....probably months from now...he should 
dry up and fall off.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 12:39:01 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
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>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 9:07 AM
>Subject: Re: Pyramid Power, Ancient Electrochemisry, and Antigrav Technology
>
>Knuke wrote:
>> 
>> A Roth type (not Ross, as I previously mentioned) device
>> could have been the original use of this material, it is hard to say.  What
>> really got me going about that device was the simplicity of it, and the fact
>> that it really could have been made at any given time in history after we
>> quit swinging from trees, practically.
>
>Where do you get this Roth info?

http://go.to/jlnlabs

gives a pretty good description of the Glow Panel Discharge device that
Jean-Louis built for his ARDA project.

Professor J. Reece Roth of the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, has
published some papers on this.

http://oaugdp.engr.utk.edu/plasma/roth.htm

A good number of the papers can be found online in the publication section
of this website:

http://plasma.ee.utk.edu

Its the stuff.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 13:18:43 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:14:42 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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		 <3.0.1.32.20000917081248.01388ef8 earthtech.org>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
> when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
> then something must lose energy.
> 
> I'll think about it.
> 

Scott, things getting complicated because of time dilatation, when the photon is blue-shifted, it may still have the same energy or not equal that is calculated by doppler formula, because the period of time you receive is shortened, I dont know this make
 sense when dealing only one photon, but when an radiowave emission is considered  wavelength is shortened, but exact number of cycles of waves are received in a shorter time. So Lorentz transformation over EM wave formula needs be applied to find what is
 happened exactly.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 13:39:25 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Whirlpower has never been given a chance at discussion on this list.

Everytime anyone has ever expressed interested the cursing, cat call, and 
put downs start all over again.

Dr. Kaku's webmaster Michael Phillips just said he want to come over and see 
this himself.




>From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Yes Whirlpower to vortexB-L
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Vortex-L is an online community, and the overall desires of the group do
>guide what happens here.  Yes, let's move all discussions of Dennard's
>physics (Whirlpower, etc.) to vortexB-L.  For those who aren't subscribed,
>the command is basically the same as for vortex-L:
>
>     Send a blank message to vortexb-L-request eskimo.com,
>     with the single word "subscribe" in the subject line.
>     Note that vortexB-L has no rules.
>
>Whirlpower has certainly been done to death here, so lets move on and give
>other topics a chance to develop.  Vortex-L can only support a finite
>number of discussions, since highly active threads tend to (ahem!)
>SUPPRESS new ones from starting or continuing.  Also, longterm attempts by
>individuals to dominate the forum are a blatent violation of netiquette.
>How can you know when you're violating netiquette?  Easy:
>
>   LISTEN TO COMPLAINTS FROM YOUR FELLOWS AND TAKE THEM VERY SERIOUSLY.
>
>
>
>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:
> > Suppressing my work on this list will only make me look stronger.  Do
> > it.  Do it now so I can announce suppresion everywhere I go.
>
>No such luck.  Instead we give you your own separate forum, vortexB-L.
>But I was under the impression that you already had your own forum.  If
>so, then I don't understand why you're here attempting to dominate this
>one, and so making enemies from those who could have been supporters.
>
>Mr. Dennard should note that Vortex-L is populated by extremely openminded
>fringe science practitioners.  "Scientists" aren't trying to suppress him.
>He is being "suppressed" by his fellow crackpots.  A wise and humble
>person learns much from opponents.  The opposite kind of person hides bad
>behavior behind justifications, and then plays the martyr.
>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 13:42:54 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:29:59 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 11:14 PM 9/18/00 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:


>Scott, things getting complicated because of time dilatation, when the 
>photon is blue-shifted, it may still have the same energy or not equal 
>that is calculated by doppler formula, because the period of time you 
>receive is shortened, I dont know this make sense when dealing only one 
>photon, but when an radiowave emission is considered  wavelength is 
>shortened, but exact number of cycles of waves are received in a shorter 
>time. So Lorentz transformation over EM wave formula needs be applied to 
>find what is happened exactly.

Hamdi,

To me the most amazing thing is that the emitted photon really never gets 
shifted either way (red or blue).  It's only in the eye of the observer 
moving w.r.t. the photon source that the shift occurs.  If you happen to be 
stationary w.r.t. the photon source, the photon looks perfectly normal.

I agree with you that there seems to be some key here to understanding just 
what it means to be moving...and then maybe why there is resistance to 
being accelerated: inertia.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 13:57:03 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:48:49 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 11:14 PM 9/18/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
[snip]
>Scott, things getting complicated because of time dilatation, when the photon
>is blue-shifted, it may still have the same energy or not equal that is
>>calculated by doppler formula, because the period of time you receive is
>shortened, I dont know this make sense when dealing only one photon, but when
>an radiowave emission is considered  wavelength is shortened, but exact
>number >of cycles of waves are received in a shorter time. So Lorentz
>transformation
>over EM wave formula needs be applied to find what is happened exactly.


That is an interesting observation Hamdi.  The notion that photons coming
from a moving source would be increased in intensity due to the Lorentz
transformation is interesting.  A similar, but opposite, thing happens to
virtual photons which make up the Coulombic field.  The effect of the
Lorentz transformation on the Coulombic field is to make it weaker as your
angle of observation theta is closer to the line of motion.  This effect is
sometimes called field pancaking.  It is an interesting thought that this
might apply to real photons as well, and I have posted such a hypothesis on
a couple sci groups without much response.

On p.492 of *The Electromagnetic Field*, Albert Shadowitz provides the
equation for relativistic (Coulombic) field pancaking as:

   E = Q/(4 Pi e0 r^2)  (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

where E is the electrostatic field strength, and we know that the doppler
shift modifies the percieved frequency nu per:

   nu' = nu * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2)

thus we would expect luminous flux F (and thus the energy per photon, and
thus the red or blue shift) adjusted for pancaking, to be modified as:

   F' = F * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2) *

                 (1 - (v^2/c^2))/(1 - (v^2/c^2) sin^2 theta)^(3/2)

The pancaking effect is a v^2/c^2 effect, so would not come into play
except in cases of extreme velocity, however.   Also, if a fast moving
luminous object is viewed from the side, the pancaking effect increases the
luminus flux above what it would otherwise be if there were no motion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 14:31:14 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yes Whirlpower to vortexB-L
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:29:17 PDT
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If there is anyone on this list that will stand up and say the truth, that 
has witnessed my trying to have a civil discussion on Whirlpower here, has 
seen the put downs and foul lauguage, and name calling, hurled in my 
direction anytime I have tried to discuss Whirlpower with someone, do it and 
I will get Kaku's webmaster over here to witness it, maybe even Kaku 
himself.

If not then I will know there is no one here interested in the truth and 
really no reason to keep trying on this list.

David


>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Yes Whirlpower to vortexB-L
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:33:42 PDT
>
>Whirlpower has never been given a chance at discussion on this list.
>
>Everytime anyone has ever expressed interested the cursing, cat call, and
>put downs start all over again.
>
>Dr. Kaku's webmaster Michael Phillips just said he want to come over and 
>see
>this himself.
>
>
>
>
>>From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Yes Whirlpower to vortexB-L
>>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>>Vortex-L is an online community, and the overall desires of the group do
>>guide what happens here.  Yes, let's move all discussions of Dennard's
>>physics (Whirlpower, etc.) to vortexB-L.  For those who aren't subscribed,
>>the command is basically the same as for vortex-L:
>>
>>     Send a blank message to vortexb-L-request eskimo.com,
>>     with the single word "subscribe" in the subject line.
>>     Note that vortexB-L has no rules.
>>
>>Whirlpower has certainly been done to death here, so lets move on and give
>>other topics a chance to develop.  Vortex-L can only support a finite
>>number of discussions, since highly active threads tend to (ahem!)
>>SUPPRESS new ones from starting or continuing.  Also, longterm attempts by
>>individuals to dominate the forum are a blatent violation of netiquette.
>>How can you know when you're violating netiquette?  Easy:
>>
>>   LISTEN TO COMPLAINTS FROM YOUR FELLOWS AND TAKE THEM VERY SERIOUSLY.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:
>> > Suppressing my work on this list will only make me look stronger.  Do
>> > it.  Do it now so I can announce suppresion everywhere I go.
>>
>>No such luck.  Instead we give you your own separate forum, vortexB-L.
>>But I was under the impression that you already had your own forum.  If
>>so, then I don't understand why you're here attempting to dominate this
>>one, and so making enemies from those who could have been supporters.
>>
>>Mr. Dennard should note that Vortex-L is populated by extremely openminded
>>fringe science practitioners.  "Scientists" aren't trying to suppress him.
>>He is being "suppressed" by his fellow crackpots.  A wise and humble
>>person learns much from opponents.  The opposite kind of person hides bad
>>behavior behind justifications, and then plays the martyr.
>>
>>
>>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) 
>>)))))))))))))))))))))
>>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 14:48:30 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:46:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 11:14 PM 9/18/0, hamdi ucar wrote:
[snip]
>Scott, things getting complicated because of time dilatation, when the photon
>is blue-shifted, it may still have the same energy or not equal that is
>>calculated by doppler formula, because the period of time you receive is
>shortened, I dont know this make sense when dealing only one photon, but when
>an radiowave emission is considered  wavelength is shortened, but exact
>number >of cycles of waves are received in a shorter time. So Lorentz
>transformation
>over EM wave formula needs be applied to find what is happened exactly.


My earlier comments with regard to pancaking were speculative.  However, a
well known effect that comes into play with regard to the Doppler shift of
a luminous object, thus also a moving mirror, is aberration.  The
relativistic effects of aberration on the doppler shift are discussed in
INTRODUCTORY RELATIVITY, by H.G.V Rosser, PLenum Press, 1967, p. 101 ff.
Aberration increases the intensity of light in the direction of motion by
"focusing" the beam in that direction (blue shifting), and reduces the
intensity (and frequency, thus red shifting) to the rear.  Rosser gives the
aberration adjusted formula for the Doppler shift as:

   lambda = lambda' (1/v^2/c^2)^(1/2)  / (1 - (v/c) cos theta)

where theta is the viewing angle to the source.  This formula, unlike the
doppler shift in etheric theory, provides for a frequency shift when a
moving object is viewed from the side.  This frequency shift is known as
the "transverse Doppler effect."  Proof of the existence of the transverse
Doppler effect would eliminate etheric theories, and its proven
non-existence would undo special relativity.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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In a message dated 09/16/2000 3:27:32 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

<<I suspect that hydrino/deuterino hydrides can also fuse with higher
elements. Note that these can be very small and are also negatively charged,
therefore not only do they not experience a "Coulomb barrier", it's actually
a "Coulomb slide", i.e. they "want" to approach heavier nuclei, and in fact
the higher the positive charge on the nucleus, the greater the attraction! >>

Huh?  How would a negatively charged hydrino/deuterino hydride get past those 
negatively charged electrons around the nucleus of every atom higher in the 
periodic table than hydrogen?

It's easy to imagine two tiny deuterinos fusing by quantum tunneling, 
especially in a tiny dideuterino molecule; but it's awfully hard to imagine 
the same thing happening with a tiny deuterino/hydrino hydride stuck on the 
outside of a large atom, especially a large and heavy atom with several 
electron shells.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 15:03:19 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Help me fix Vortex-L
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Scott Little wrote:

>Well, that clinches it!  Vortex-L has been infected with a malignancy that 
>feeds on reactions provoked from list members.
>
>I suggest we try to starve it to death.
>
>Please join me in NEVER responding to ANY of Dennard's future posts.

You will find that easier to do if you add his name to your automatic
kill-file list. You will never see his posts -- only the occassional
replies to them made by other people.

- Jed

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On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:
> I like it here.  I like the contrast.  Love your enemy, as they say.  Works 
> for me!!  :)

On newsgroups there is a behavior known as the "troll": the intentional
posting of messages which are crafted in order to draw attacks.

  The Jargon Dictionary:  Troll
  http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/t/troll.html

Trolling is an excellent way to get a discussion going.  (Heh.  Just go on
sci.physics.electromag and loudly insist that receiving antennas actively
"suck energy" from the EM waves!) 

But n.b. definition #2 in the above.  One form of troller is the ego-
bloated person who wants to become the center of attention by causing
namecallers to rise to his bait.  Negative attention is still attention,
and the troller gets his jollies by attracting attacks and then playing
the role of poor misunderstood martyr.

There are no rules on Vortex-L to forbid trolling.  But there is a very
simple cure.  Scott Little put his finger on it: silence.  The trollers
want ego-food, and their attackers give them a major supply. 

There's a more general rule for internet forums which covers trolling:

   If you want a thread to continue, then respond to those messages.
   If you want a thread to go away, then stifle the urge to respond.

Threads aren't killed by attacking the participants.  Threads are killed
through LACK of particpants.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 15:47:01 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Troll"
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:40:22 PDT
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Why can't you say the truth Bill?  Everytime I have gotten someone 
interested in a discusion on Whirlpower your cronies pull out the insults, 
name calling, cursing and destroy the normal list flow.   I don't do it, I'm 
just here to discuss Whirlpower.  Can't get a good discussion with those 
interested.

Is this list just about cold fusion, Infinite Energy Magazine, Scott Little, 
ect.  Is this a private list pretending to be a public list.  That's what it 
looks like to me.

You guys just don't like it when I get attention.  Especially when I get 
positive attention.  Then you start to go nuts.  Things go fine as long as 
everyone has a good time putting me down.

I know it is not an illusion I am having, Florek called it too.  My ego 
isn't bloated.  I'm not the acting like a big shot, I'm not the bully, just 
here discussing my ZPE device underconstruction and related science news 
issues.

David

>From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: "Troll"
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:
> > I like it here.  I like the contrast.  Love your enemy, as they say.  
>Works
> > for me!!  :)
>
>On newsgroups there is a behavior known as the "troll": the intentional
>posting of messages which are crafted in order to draw attacks.
>
>   The Jargon Dictionary:  Troll
>   http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/t/troll.html
>
>Trolling is an excellent way to get a discussion going.  (Heh.  Just go on
>sci.physics.electromag and loudly insist that receiving antennas actively
>"suck energy" from the EM waves!)
>
>But n.b. definition #2 in the above.  One form of troller is the ego-
>bloated person who wants to become the center of attention by causing
>namecallers to rise to his bait.  Negative attention is still attention,
>and the troller gets his jollies by attracting attacks and then playing
>the role of poor misunderstood martyr.
>
>There are no rules on Vortex-L to forbid trolling.  But there is a very
>simple cure.  Scott Little put his finger on it: silence.  The trollers
>want ego-food, and their attackers give them a major supply.
>
>There's a more general rule for internet forums which covers trolling:
>
>    If you want a thread to continue, then respond to those messages.
>    If you want a thread to go away, then stifle the urge to respond.
>
>Threads aren't killed by attacking the participants.  Threads are killed
>through LACK of particpants.
>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 15:49:49 2000
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Vortexoids,

Bill has informed me privately that in order for me to to remain
subscribed to this list (since I broke the namecalling rule) I must
apologize to Dennard for calling him (Dennard) a moron.

O.K., I apologize.

Now, all of a sudden, everything has changed?
---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 15:52:05 2000
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> I suggested:
> 
> >>Since you clearly perceive that this list is not receptive to your ideas,
> >>then why don't you unsubscribe?
> 
> to which Dennard responded:
> 
> >I like it here.  I like the contrast.  Love your enemy, as they
> >say.  Works for me!!  :)
> 
> Well, that clinches it!  Vortex-L has been infected with a malignancy that
> feeds on reactions provoked from list members.
> 
> I suggest we try to starve it to death.
> 
> Please join me in NEVER responding to ANY of Dennard's future posts.  That
> should promptly cut the size of the Dennard wart in half since he'll only
> be talking to himself.  Eventually....probably months from now...he should
> dry up and fall off.

---

Count me in.

---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 16:06:26 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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Correction: "Rosser gives on p. 102 the aberration adjusted formula for the
Doppler shift as:

   lambda = lambda' (1-v^2/c^2)^(1/2)  / (1 - (v/c) cos theta)

which is the same as:

   lambda = lambda'  (1/(gamma (1 - (v/c) cos theta))

I typed a "/"  where a "-" should have been.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 16:14:02 2000
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At 11:35 AM 9/18/0, Larry Wharton wrote:

>   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
>propagating within a vortex can transport momentum in a way that does
>in fact have the effect of a negative viscosity.  For example see (JD
>Moller and MT Montgomery, Vortex Rossby waves and hurricane
>intensification in a baratropic model, J Atmos Sci 56 (9) 1197-1223
>May 1999).  The theory is that motions within a vortex force the
>generation of vortex Rossyb waves which then generates the negative
>viscosity effect that works against and balances with the normal
>shear viscosity.  In private communications and seminars the small
>group of investigators researching this phenomena actually have
>called it "negative viscosity" but because of the "cold fusion"
>connotations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers
>that have been accepted for publication.


Can this "negative viscosity" be induced in plasma or liquid state
vortices?  If such a state could be induced in a mercury vortex, for
example, it should be a fairly easy matter to both induce waves and to tap
kinetic energy by use of magnetohydrodynamics.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> >At 11:04 PM 9/16/2000 +0300, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >
> >> 2vdv + dv^2 = -2 de/m
> >>
> >>Term dv^2 cause the acceleration or deceleration of the mirror depending
> >direction of movement to photon direction. It appears that
> >acceleration/deceleration of mirror is not required to exchange energy with
> >the photon.
> >
> >This is a very interesting subject, Hamdi.  Surely we must conserve energy
> >when a photon reflects from a mirror.  If the photon truly is blue-shifted
> >then something must lose energy.
> >
> >I'll think about it.
> 
> The mirror changes momentum and energy in balance to the photon
> transactions, as viewed in any reference frame.  The photon is RED shifted
> upon reflection from the mirror's ORIGINAL reference frame, which is moving
> relative to the mirror as seen from the mirror AFTER the transaction.  It
> is blue shifted form an approaching oberver's point of view, but the mirror
> has LOST kinetic energy and gained NEGATIVE momentum form that reference
> frame.
> 

Horace, bounce of the photon from moving mirror can be understand as two effects: 

1) upon the photon kick the mirror, mirror and the frame the mirror is fixed 
   (earth) is accelerated theoretically. This may cause loss of energy of photon
   and gain of kinetic energy of the mirror. This is totally negligible and not a 
   piece of the paradox.

2) Doppler effect. as you gave by eq. (1a). May it need to clarify the effect of
   the time compression/dilatation of the duration of the signal (photon) before validate
   eq.(1b). You wrote "Therefore if the frequency of light increases, its energy increases, 
   and therefore the energy per unit of time increases."  Yes, but the "time" is 
   shortened, therefore energy increase per unit of time does not equally increase
   energy of the photon, I think.


Clearly, doppler effect is present from the frame where the mirror seen moving,
but not on the mirror frame. That was the paradox. (or not be considered as paradox)

[snip]    

> The full momentum of the photon, and the corresponding energy, are absorbed
> by the mirror, and then re-emitted at a frequency shifted by doppler shift.
> The doppler shift occurs in ANY reference frame viewing the momentum
> exchange, including the mirror's original reference frame.  The mirror
> accelerates when the momentum is absorbed, because its momentum is
> increased by that delivered by the photon.  

This is totally negligible especially on moving mirror case, doppler shift
occurs not by the infinitesimal acceleration caused by the photon impact but
by the given speed of the mirror.

> When the photon is emitted (by
> the reflection process) it is doppler shifted.  The momentum exchange
> again, in any refernace frame, is that carried off by the photon. The
> momentum carried by the photon, in any reference frame, is always exactly
> the opposite of that applied to the mirror.  The energy exchange also
> matches perfectly.



> 
> Plank discovered:
> 
>    E = h * nu                     (1)
> 
> where E is the energy (measured in joules) nu is the frequency, and h is a
> constant named after Plank.  Therefore if the frequency of light
> increases, its energy increases, and therefore the energy per unit of time
> increases.
> 
> When light is emitted by a light source moving at speed v toward you, then
> the frequency of that light is increased (blue shifted, or made more blue)
> and if the source is moving away from you the frequency is decreased (red
> shifted, made more red.)  Blue light carries more energy per photon than
> red light does.
> 
> The formula to compute nu' the frequency sensed, when a light source
> moving at speed v toward you (v negative if away from you) is given by:
> 
>    nu' = nu * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2)   (1a)
> 
> thus we can see that the perceived energy per photon E' is also shifted
> proportionately:
> 
>    E' = E * ((1 + v/c)/(1 - v/c))^(1/2)      (1b)
> 
> Whether you work out the problem by full realtivistic analysis or by simple
> doppler shift applied to low velocity exchanges, everthing balances,
> energy, momentum, and mass.  Even the relativistic mass added or removed
> from the mirror by its change in velocity is exactly matched to the energy
> delived by the photon by the relation:
> 
>    m = E/c^2   (Einstein)          (2)
> 
> The photon can thus be considered to "carry" or transact a corresponding
> mass.  It is for this reason I have often said in the past here that BOTH
> energy and mass are conserved in a closed system, unless there is a source
> of free energy, and if there is a source of free energy that source can
> theoretically be identified by a mass increase over time.
> 

Relativity, defacto accept photon have mass, but it seems that quantum theory or Standard Model does not accept defacto mass-inertia equality. What was tried to demonstrate originally
this equality within experimentally validated formulas. 

I will evaluate the snipped part later.


> Energy is conserved.
> 
> A key point regarding energy is that energy and mass are inseperable, at
> least with regard to the electro-magnetic (EM) force.  The universe may or
> may not spontaneously create mass and therefore energy from the vacuum, but
> it seems certain to me that mass and energy must remain in the balance E/m
> = c^2.  That is because photons carry momentum.  To conserve momentum, a
> photon absorbed by a mass must receive the kinetic energy K corresponding
> to the change in velocity due to the momentum change, and K=E.  However, by
> the special theory of relativity, that results in a corresponding increase
> in apparent mass of the absorbing body by the ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta
> m).  Therefore *both* mass and energy are always conserved in an EM
> exchange, as is the ratio E/m.  The process also works in reverse, i.e.
> atoms radiating, due to electrons (or other particles) dropping energy
> levels, must lose the corresponding mass.

[snip]

> Also, quantum mechanics
> gives us the possible loophole of action at a distance, i.e. the
> possibility of quantum linkages transcending space and time, thus the
> possibility of instantaneously transferring energy (and thus mass) or mass
> (and thus energy) between differing points in the universe.

Yes, an apparent violation conservation of energy can occurs if a system exchange
energy remotely. For example if gravitational field is modifiable, one may
exchange energy with gravitational field of the universe, which is can not
be observed according equivalence principle of GR. If this is possible, CE
make lesser sense assuming the total energy of universe is infinite.

[snip] 

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Thanks for your help, I will evaluate snipped sections later.

hamdi ucar

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Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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Correction: "Rosser gives on p. 102 the aberration adjusted formula for the
Doppler shift as:

   nu = nu' (1-v^2/c^2)^(1/2)  / (1 - (v/c) cos theta)

which is the same as:

   nu = nu'  (1/(gamma (1 - (v/c) cos theta))

or

   nu' = nu gamma (1 - (v/c) cos theta)

where nu is the frequency of the light emitted, as observed within the
light source's inirtial frame.

Hope I got all that right this time.  Sorry!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: paradox of light reflected from moving mirror
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At 2:09 AM 9/19/0, hamdi ucar wrote:

[snip]
>Clearly, doppler effect is present from the frame where the mirror seen moving,
>but not on the mirror frame. That was the paradox. (or not be considered
>as paradox)
[snip]

Oh, OK.  In practice I would exect a larger than (the formula) predicted
doppler shift due to the fact the electron cloud upon which the reflection
actually occurs has a small mass compared to the mirror as a whole, thus a
much greater delta v will occur for the reflecting surface than that which
is expected to ultimately result for the mirror as a whole, and the
resulting doppler shift would be visible within the mirror's reference
frame.   I don't think this has been an observed effect.  I wonder why?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 16:47:00 2000
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From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
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John,
   read trolling post. Good idea. Let it go. I made the points I felt
necessary and I don't feel "good" for doing it but I was probably also
foolish for doing it. Mr. Beatty is right, ego gratification doesn't
care whether it is right or not as long as it draws attention. This
seems like a nice list and I haven't been a member for long and so I too
apologize for getting sucked into this whole thing.
MJ

John Fields wrote:

> Vortexoids,
>
> Bill has informed me privately that in order for me to to remain
> subscribed to this list (since I broke the namecalling rule) I must
> apologize to Dennard for calling him (Dennard) a moron.
>
> O.K., I apologize.
>
> Now, all of a sudden, everything has changed?
> ---
>
> John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 17:17:14 2000
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Lies continue.

The points Mike made were bogus.  The discusion was about science being 
right or wrong not Whirlpower when I stated Rubin Hawking Kaku agreed.  
Anyone knows if I had endorsements from the top astrophysicists in the world 
I would not even be on this list anymore taking to a bunch of nobodies.

John your calling me a moron is no worse that Bill calling me a troll, it is 
still name calling.  The bloated ego is coming from the name callers not me.

Suppession has been evoked already by Bill asking no one reply to my posts.  
So I ask to be unsubscribed.  And believe me I will gladly tell the world 
who the morons really are very soon and what list is bogus.




>From: Mike Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Another apology
>Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:48:45 -0400
>
>John,
>    read trolling post. Good idea. Let it go. I made the points I felt
>necessary and I don't feel "good" for doing it but I was probably also
>foolish for doing it. Mr. Beatty is right, ego gratification doesn't
>care whether it is right or not as long as it draws attention. This
>seems like a nice list and I haven't been a member for long and so I too
>apologize for getting sucked into this whole thing.
>MJ
>
>John Fields wrote:
>
> > Vortexoids,
> >
> > Bill has informed me privately that in order for me to to remain
> > subscribed to this list (since I broke the namecalling rule) I must
> > apologize to Dennard for calling him (Dennard) a moron.
> >
> > O.K., I apologize.
> >
> > Now, all of a sudden, everything has changed?
> > ---
> >
> > John Fields
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 18:03:51 2000
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:53:16 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
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I can't seem to stop thinking about the strange proportions of the Great
Pyramid, for which the two upward-slanting edges of each face are about .95
times the width of the horizontal face. As I noted the other day, that's
awful close to an equilateral triangle, and since one would expect more
erosion at the top than at the bottom, I am strongly tempted to conclude
that the faces were originally equilateral. However, the difference in
height would be 540 -486 = 54 feet, and I read the other day that the
missing capstone would only add about 35 feet, so we are 19 feet short. It
occured to me this morning, however, that limestone is compressible, and
becomes more dense over time if the overburden is large, eventually turning
into "compact limestone," which, in commerce, is used interchangeably with
marble. Thus the lower tiers of limestone blocks have undoubtedly lost some
of their original vertical height over the past 4600 years, due to
compaction. Since 19 feet is 3.5% of 540 feet, the question becomes this:
is it reasonable to suppose that a pile of limestone blocks 540 feet high
would lose 3.5% of its height in 4600 years due to compressive deformation?
Since it appears likely that these blocks were composed of soft, broken
limestones that were poured into place and allowed to set like concrete,
rather than formed naturally over eons under conditions of extreme pressure
(see http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeo1a.html), I would expect them to be
far less dense than natural limestones, and hence much more subject to
pressure-induced deformation. However, I haven't yet found any information
that would permit me to do a calculation, and thus I have no way to
determine whether such a speculation is in the ball park. Does anybody know
the range of densities of naturally occurring limestone, or have any data
or formulae which might be used to compute the likely amount of compaction
over a period of 4600 years? My gut says 3.5% is reasonable, but I don't
know that for a fact. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 18:31:14 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:13:31 -0700
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A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters in cross section
and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance)shows a "resonance" with
 ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.

Since a parallel resonant circuit (antiresonance) requires that Xc = 1/[2(pi)fC]
equals Xl = 2(pi)fL, given that a two-wire transmission line (Lecher Line) has
a near light-speed velocity of ~ 0.98c, where the velocity of light in vacuum  = 1/(LC)^1/2,
what would the value of L and C of this Single Current Loop be?

Would increasing the diameter of the Loop to a meter or more, decrease L and C and
thus raise the pulse velocity?

Wouldn't increasing the number of turns increase L and C, and thus slow down
the pulse velocity?

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 18:31:30 2000
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On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> John your calling me a moron is no worse that Bill calling me a troll, it is 
> still name calling.  The bloated ego is coming from the name callers not me.

I very specifically called nobody anything.  I expect that each side will
see only their opponent within that definition of "troll."  You made a
comment about enjoying being attacked.  That is a prime characteristic of
troller behavior.  In my opinion a civilized person should IGNORE attacks,
since very often they come from trollers who just want to draw your
attention and suck you into a flamewar.  When someone attacks you, if you
absolutely insist on defending yourself, then any troller can get you
right where he wants you.  If you must respond to attacks, it's best to
respond privately and so frustrate the troller's goal of attracting public
attention.

> Suppession has been evoked already by Bill asking no one reply to my posts.  

No, I already directed everyone to move "whirlpower" discussions to
vortexB list.

My comment about refusing to reply was directed at those who are
complaining about the longrunning Whirlpower topic.  When a topic
persists, it's the fault of those who respond to responses to responses.
If nobody wanted to discuss whirlpower on vortex, there would be no
continuing threads.  One person can attempt to stir up interest in a
topic, but when the attempt is successful, just who is keeping the thread
alive?  It takes two to tango.  The same goes for flamewars: if we ignore
personal attacks, no flamewar can exist.  But if a flamewar breaks out, it
is the fault of EVERY participant, even if the participants insist on
blaming their opponents for starting it.  Whenever we go looking for
someone to blame, we should always make sure to start with ourselves. 


> So I ask to be unsubscribed.  And believe me I will gladly tell the world 
> who the morons really are very soon and what list is bogus.

To unsubscribe, send a blank message with the word unsubscribe in the
subject line.  Send it to :

  vortex-L-request eskimo.com
  vortexB-L-request eskimo.com

To even further "suppress" the discussion, people could subscribe to Mr.
Dennard's Whirlpower list at http://www.egroups.com/group/whirlpower


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 18:57:29 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
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Hi Mitch,

I didn't get right back to you because I've been busy with other things, but
you could very well be right about this equilateral triangle thing.  From
what little I've read over the years, experts generally have tended to
insist that the Cheops dimensional ratios are important for the thing to
work, but I've heard other opinions as well.  I worked with an artist in
Bavaria (Jogi Berger) for a while who was making various "new age" products,
and one of the things he came up with was a pyramid lamp that was about 1'
in length at the base of each side, and about 3' tall.  Granted, it was not
supposed to "do" anything except give off light, but we did talk about it
during the design phase, and he said that perhaps the proportions were
tunable for different results.  Only experimentation would confirm this, but
it would be interesting, and I would think that an equilateral triangle
would be on top of the list of proportions to try, just based on what you
have speculated.

This character Berger was also a dowser who worked with a number of methods
including a pendulum.  That was what originally made me think that perhaps
throwing a pyramid into the works might prove interesting in Kyle's
experiment, and some of the ES experiments as well.  I still think that it
wouldn't hurt to have at least one around in the lab just for weird fun if
nothing else.

I'm also still puzzling out how Fred pulled the microwave absorber idea out
of thin air. ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 19:31:47 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:27:51 +1100
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In reply to  Tstolper aol.com's message of Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:42:31 EDT:
[snip]
>Huh?  How would a negatively charged hydrino/deuterino hydride get past those 
>negatively charged electrons around the nucleus of every atom higher in the 
>periodic table than hydrogen?

First, we're looking at something < 1/10 the size of an H atom (and maybe
much less, perhaps 1/100 - 1/1000). Second, how does a negative muon do it?
It displaces one of the existing electrons as a consequence of its charge,
and takes up an orbit much closer to the nucleus, as a consequence of its
mass. Presumably an "extremely heavy" very small negatively charged ion
could do the same. After all, they "look" the same don't they? ;)

One thing that does make me wonder though...How does Mills envisage a muon,
and how does he explain muon catalyzed fusion (which clearly happens), if
muons, like electrons, were to form "shells" around a nucleus?

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 19:41:44 2000
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Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke lcia.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?

Knuke wrote:
>
> I'm also still puzzling out how Fred pulled the microwave absorber idea out
> of thin air. ;)

Not exactly out of the air, Knuke. While working for the DOE as a science advisor and
science fair judge for the local public school system (K thru 12) a few years ago, a girl in the
8th grade had a "Pyramid" science fair experiment set up using a now rather putrid chicken part.

Not one to thumb my nose at a "new idea" I did some research into Pyramidiot
Phenomena, with a bias toward EM focusing/prism effects,especially from the
Microwave (sub-meter wavelength)energy spectrum in the ~ 1.2 kilowatts per square meter energy
coming from the
Sun.

You might want to look at the microwave optics of sandstone that runs  ~150#/ft^3, and
it's index of refraction.

BTW, Hertz used a large block of Pitch to bend the ~ 300 Megahertz ( ~ one meter wavelength)
waves from his "spark transmitter" ca. 1880.

Solar energy triumphs again?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick





>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 22:47:23 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:15:59 -0800:
[snip]
>Can this "negative viscosity" be induced in plasma or liquid state
>vortices?  If such a state could be induced in a mercury vortex, for
>example, it should be a fairly easy matter to both induce waves and to tap
>kinetic energy by use of magnetohydrodynamics.
[snip]
Or even paddle wheels? :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 18 23:05:04 2000
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That's a lot of airplane!

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/09/18/spruce.goose/index.html

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WANG.LSU
Louisiana State University=20
13-Feb-98=20


LSU researcher makes pumps, switches without moving parts
Library: SCI=20
Keywords: RELAYS PUMPS SWITCHES LSU MICROMECHANICS=20
Description: A tiny pump with no moving parts wear out and a switch that =
emits no spark when turned off are two creations of LSU's mechanical =
engineering professor Wanjung Wang.=20

=20

Contact=20
Ron Brown=20
LSU News Service504 388-3867=20
e-mail: rbrown lsu.edu=20

BATON ROUGE -- A tiny pump with no moving parts to wear out. A switch =
that emits no spark when turned off.=20

These are two creations of LSU's mechanical engineering professor =
Wanjung Wang.=20

Wang has taken an old, well-known principal called the =
"magnetohydrodynamic effect" and put it to new uses. Using the =
technology at LSU's Center for Advanced Microstructures and Devices, he =
has come up with a way to pump electrically conductive fluids through =
tiny channels.=20

Wang's device is a small rectangular channel with two sidewalls made of =
a conducting material and the top and bottom made of a non-conductiong =
material covered with permanent magnets. When an electric current is =
passed through the conducting material, a phenomenon called Lorentz =
force causes the fluid inside the channel to flow. This is the same =
force that causes an electric motor to spin.=20

Because so many biological fluids are conductive, Wang said his pump =
should find numerous applications in medicine and biomedical research. =
"It can be integrated with many commonly used chemical and biological =
sensing techniques and may have significant applications in biomedical =
and chemical analysis."=20

On the other hand, if a liquid is already flowing it will induce a =
current in the conducting material, permitting the device to act as a =
sensor rather than a pump. "Or, one section can be used as a pump and =
another section as a sensor," Wang said.=20

For fluids with very low or no conductivity, a "carrier liquid" with =
higher conductivity can be used, he said.=20

Other advantages of his pump include a reduced risk of failure due to =
mechanical fatigue, low manufacturing cost, reduced risk of clogging and =
reduced risk of damaging delicate molecular material.=20

For delivering greater quantities of liquid than one small channel can =
handle, many channels can be bundled together, he said.=20

Another aspect of Wang's idea is a small, silent switch that works on =
the same principle. But instead of pumping a liquid through a tube, the =
switch drives a mercury plug into a gap between two electrodes, closing =
the circuit and allowing an electric current to flow.=20

"Because we use a liquid metal, we get a perfect contact," Wang said.=20

Wang has identified numerous advantages in this design over other types =
of switches. A mechanical contact switch, like a light switch, relies on =
two contacts touching each other. Whenever this switch is turned on or =
off, a small spark results which ultimately corrodes the contacts and =
ruins the switch.=20

Solid state switches, like transistors, cannot handle high current, and =
are unsuitable for many applications.=20

Relay switches that use high resistance to stop the current flow heat =
up, consume a lot of energy, and can never be said to be completely on =
or completely off.=20

Wang's switch overcomes all these limitations and it has the advantage =
of a built-in electronic control. The magnetohydrodynamic pump portion =
of the switch can be activated by a magnetic field, or a tiny current =
from a computer can turn the switches off and on=20

# # #=20


=20

SciNews-MedNews Menu | LifeNews Menu | BizNews Menu
Search Any Library | Newswise Home=20
Use your browser's "Back" button to return to the article list.

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>WANG.LSU</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.newswise.com/articles/1998/2/WANG.LSU.html>
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><CITE><INSTITUTION>Louisiana State=20
University</INSTITUTION></CITE> <BR><DATE>13-Feb-98</DATE> <BR><BR>
<H3>
<CENTER><NWTITLE>LSU researcher makes pumps, switches without moving=20
parts</NWTITLE></CENTER></H3><B>Library: </B><LIB>SCI</LIB> =
<BR><B>Keywords:</B>=20
<NWKEYWORDS>RELAYS PUMPS SWITCHES LSU MICROMECHANICS</NWKEYWORDS>=20
<WBR><STCODE></STCODE><BR><B>Description: </B><DESC>A tiny pump with no =
moving=20
parts wear out and a switch that emits no spark when turned off are two=20
creations of LSU's mechanical engineering professor Wanjung Wang.</DESC> =

<BR><EMDATE></EMDATE><BR><IMG align=3Dbottom height=3D1=20
src=3D"http://www.newswise.com/nwimages/line-mgt.jpg" width=3D"100%"=20
NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D"0"> <BR><BR><RELTEXT>Contact <BR>Ron Brown <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.lsu.edu/guests/wwwpr/newsservice.html">LSU News =
Service</A>504=20
388-3867 <BR>e-mail: rbrown lsu.edu <BR><BR>BATON ROUGE -- A tiny pump =
with no=20
moving parts to wear out. A switch that emits no spark when turned off.=20
<BR><BR>These are two creations of LSU's mechanical engineering =
professor=20
Wanjung Wang. <BR><BR>Wang has taken an old, well-known principal called =
the=20
"magnetohydrodynamic effect" and put it to new uses. Using the =
technology at=20
LSU's Center for Advanced Microstructures and Devices, he has come up =
with a way=20
to pump electrically conductive fluids through tiny channels. =
<BR><BR>Wang's=20
device is a small rectangular channel with two sidewalls made of a =
conducting=20
material and the top and bottom made of a non-conductiong material =
covered with=20
permanent magnets. When an electric current is passed through the =
conducting=20
material, a phenomenon called Lorentz force causes the fluid inside the =
channel=20
to flow. This is the same force that causes an electric motor to spin.=20
<BR><BR>Because so many biological fluids are conductive, Wang said his =
pump=20
should find numerous applications in medicine and biomedical research. =
"It can=20
be integrated with many commonly used chemical and biological sensing =
techniques=20
and may have significant applications in biomedical and chemical =
analysis."=20
<BR><BR>On the other hand, if a liquid is already flowing it will induce =
a=20
current in the conducting material, permitting the device to act as a =
sensor=20
rather than a pump. "Or, one section can be used as a pump and another =
section=20
as a sensor," Wang said. <BR><BR>For fluids with very low or no =
conductivity, a=20
"carrier liquid" with higher conductivity can be used, he said. =
<BR><BR>Other=20
advantages of his pump include a reduced risk of failure due to =
mechanical=20
fatigue, low manufacturing cost, reduced risk of clogging and reduced =
risk of=20
damaging delicate molecular material. <BR><BR>For delivering greater =
quantities=20
of liquid than one small channel can handle, many channels can be =
bundled=20
together, he said. <BR><BR>Another aspect of Wang's idea is a small, =
silent=20
switch that works on the same principle. But instead of pumping a liquid =
through=20
a tube, the switch drives a mercury plug into a gap between two =
electrodes,=20
closing the circuit and allowing an electric current to flow. =
<BR><BR>"Because=20
we use a liquid metal, we get a perfect contact," Wang said. =
<BR><BR>Wang has=20
identified numerous advantages in this design over other types of =
switches. A=20
mechanical contact switch, like a light switch, relies on two contacts =
touching=20
each other. Whenever this switch is turned on or off, a small spark =
results=20
which ultimately corrodes the contacts and ruins the switch. =
<BR><BR>Solid state=20
switches, like transistors, cannot handle high current, and are =
unsuitable for=20
many applications. <BR><BR>Relay switches that use high resistance to =
stop the=20
current flow heat up, consume a lot of energy, and can never be said to =
be=20
completely on or completely off. <BR><BR>Wang's switch overcomes all =
these=20
limitations and it has the advantage of a built-in electronic control. =
The=20
magnetohydrodynamic pump portion of the switch can be activated by a =
magnetic=20
field, or a tiny current from a computer can turn the switches off and =
on=20
<BR><BR># # # <BR><BR><BR></RELTEXT><IMG align=3Dbottom height=3D1=20
src=3D"http://www.newswise.com/nwimages/line-mgt.jpg" width=3D"100%"=20
NATURALSIZEFLAG=3D"0"> <BR>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.newswise.com/menu-sm.htm">SciNews-MedNews =
Menu</A> |=20
<A href=3D"http://www.newswise.com/menu-lf.htm">LifeNews Menu</A> | <A=20
href=3D"http://www.newswise.com/menu-bz.htm">BizNews Menu</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.newswise.com/search-1.htm">Search Any Library</A> | =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.newswise.com/nwhome.htm">Newswise Home</A> =
<BR><CITE>Use your=20
browser's "Back" button to return to the article=20
list.</CITE></CENTER></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 00:40:40 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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This principle (I think it was originally called a Faraday Pump) was evaluated
for pumping NaK in nuclear reactors as early as the 1950s.

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 01:48:04 2000
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1000918112552.19299C-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Vortex -B
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Well I tried to resubscribe to Vortex B just so I could say one thing to D.
Dennard (If a hurricane is this great "generator" of ZPE energy, then why do
they dissipate and stop?) but I got this message when I tried using the
address in Bill's message...

<<   ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
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550 <'vortexb-l-request eskimo.com'>... Host unknown (Name server:
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What's wrong?

Nick Palmer

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Seems I'm still on this list.  I will be glad to answer and others are 
writing me off board that what I have said is correct.  Bill doesn't know 
nor most everyone that voted to have me moved.  They do not even read what I 
post.


>From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Vortex -B
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:41:08 +0100
>
>Well I tried to resubscribe to Vortex B just so I could say one thing to D.
>Dennard (If a hurricane is this great "generator" of ZPE energy, then why 
>do
>they dissipate and stop?) but I got this message when I tried using the
>address in Bill's message...
>
><<   ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications -----
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>
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>550 <'vortexb-l-request eskimo.com'>... Host unknown (Name server:
>eskimo.com': host not found)>>
>
>What's wrong?
>
>Nick Palmer
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 06:07:06 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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>This principle (I think it was originally called a Faraday Pump) was evaluated
>for pumping NaK in nuclear reactors as early as the 1950s.
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Couldn't this also be used as an inefficient transformer?  Suppose you had
some goat bladders or intestines or something, sewn-together into a ring
filled with conducting fluid, and covered with amber resin, pine sap or
pitch to harden it into shape and to keep it from leaking.  Today, we would
just use PVC pipe curved into a ring, I suppose.  A primary coil on one side
and a secondary on the other? ;)

We just need to figure out the Egyptian oscillator, and we're Flying Carpet
Guys. I'd better get my fez!  A metal covered, musical reed pipe, perhaps?
All the instruments that I can think of that employ reeds have the reeds in
the mouthpiece, so that wouldn't work.  Do bagpipes use reeds that are not a
part of the mouthpiece?  A giant tuning fork or gong, maybe?

Knuke
 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Eye on IP News Update
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:18:51 -0400
From: "Laura Westlake" <lwestlake cafezine.com>
Reply-To: <lwestlake cafezine.com>
To: "Eye on IP"  <ipfrontline cafezine.com>


EYE ON IP NEWS UPDATE     Mon 18SEP00 Vol. 04: No. 33

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PATENTCAFE MAGAZINE TOP STORIES:

o Intellectual Property Office of Singapore Launches SurfIP
  http://www.cafezine.com/news_template.asp?id=454&deptid=8
o Revision of the European Patent Convention
  http://www.cafezine.com/index_article.asp?Id=238&deptid=6
o Venturing Your Concept - Part 8 Staff Selection
  http://www.cafezine.com/index_article.asp?Id=237&deptid=3

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NEWS PATENTCAFE

o This Week's Chat - Christiane Hile
o Grand Opening: New PatentCafe IP Mall
o International Invention Contest
o PatentCafe Correction

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Patent No. 0,533,244 was issued to Charles P. Steinmetz,
for his method for alternating current.

Source: N. Paul Friederichs of Angenehm Law Firm

==================NEWS PATENTCAFE=================

o Tuesday Nite Live Expert Chat - September 19, 2000

Guest Expert, Christiane Hile presents:
"Prove What and When -- Documenting Intellectual 
Property in the Digital Age"

Learn about Digital Date Stamping and File Registration

In the midst of the 'Digital Revolution', the Patent 
Office is implementing the Electronic Filing System, 
MP3 is changing how digital music files are registered
and protected, and digital signatures are legally binding.

Our Guest this week is Attorney Christiane Hile of 
FirstUse.com - a company that specializes in digital file
certification, registry and storage. From idea conception
to invention description -- find out how to create an 
economical, witnessed, audit trail of documents so
that you can prove what you did and when you did it! Patents
can be challenged. In case of a dispute, evidence such as a 
well-documented inventor�s notebook or timesealed notes of a 
conversation can be critical to deflecting costly law suits. 
In the digital age, documents can be easily tampered with or 
backdated. Learn how to implement simple tools and practices to
strengthen your evidence.

Companies can register defensive publications, inventors can
register inventions as soon as they are conceived ... online,
instantly.  In short, this powerful digital file management 
tool is changing how businesses and inventors are proving date 
of origination (or filing) and protecting their confidential 
documents.

If you manage sensitive digital information, or create digital
music, manuscripts or invention descriptions, you will want 
to plan on bringing your questions to this Online live chat 
event on Tuesday. 

Christiane Hile is Director of Business Development for Firstuse.com,
Inc., responsible for developing and maintaining strategic alliances.
Christiane is a founding executive member of the Los Angeles 
Chapter of Women in Technology International (WITI) and became a 
member of the State Bar of California, the U.S. District Court, 
Central District of California, and the U.S. Court of Appeals, 
Ninth Circuit, in 1999.  Before coming to California, Christiane
spearheaded the market launch of a legal product jointly developed
by two Canadian law firms, managing to penetrate 18 industries 
within nine months. From 1990 to1997, she practiced law as a civil 
and criminal defense litigator in Vancouver, B.C. 

http://www.patentcafe.com/chat/090003.html 

Chat Date: September 19, 2000 *TUESDAY NITE*
9:00 - 11:00 PM EASTERN TIME
(6:00 - 8:00 PM Pacific Time)

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o Grand Opening: New PatentCafe IP Mall

PatentCafe.com Mall is now open at 
http://www.ipbookstore.com.

We're pleased to expand the products for Intellectual
Property Professionals to include awards, posters and 
professional reports, as well as the books and kits 
you're used to seeing at the Patent Cafe Store.

Several Services have been added as well:

To instantly fingerprint, timestamp, and register any 
size or type of file, click on the FirstUse.com link.

For instant access to the savviest IP quote and RFP 
generation engine on the Internet, click on the Feebid
link from the PatentCafe.com Mall.

For your (nearly) instant printing requirements, use the
NowDocs.com link.

Plus, PatentCafe.com Mall is the only place you'll
find exclusive PatentCafe Gear.

Come on in and browse through the Mall - let us know 
what you think.

http://www.ipbookstore.com

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o International Invention Contest

Invention contest...open to patent attorneys, inventors,
engineers, and entrepreneurs. Have you ever wanted to
know whether you have what it takes to transform an idea
into a million-dollar seller? If you think you're good
enough, find out this Halloween. Stay tuned for details...

=================================================

o PatentCafe Correction

Due to technical problems our September 16 edition
of Eye on IP Weekender was unable to be sent.
We will be sending out the Weekender this Friday evening
and will be profiling Murray Ansell, licensing
expert, of California-based ThinkUSA.
  
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 06:38:25 2000
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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:36:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
Resent-Message-ID: <"59YG72.0.c62.4msnv" mx1>
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>Hi Mitch,
>
>I didn't get right back to you because I've been busy with other things, but
>you could very well be right about this equilateral triangle thing.  From
>what little I've read over the years, experts generally have tended to
>insist that the Cheops dimensional ratios are important for the thing to
>work, but I've heard other opinions as well.  I worked with an artist in
>Bavaria (Jogi Berger) for a while who was making various "new age" products,
>and one of the things he came up with was a pyramid lamp that was about 1'
>in length at the base of each side, and about 3' tall.  Granted, it was not
>supposed to "do" anything except give off light, but we did talk about it
>during the design phase, and he said that perhaps the proportions were
>tunable for different results.  Only experimentation would confirm this, but
>it would be interesting, and I would think that an equilateral triangle
>would be on top of the list of proportions to try, just based on what you
>have speculated.

***{I'm probably going to build a pyramid (and, as a control, a cubical
enclosure of the same volume), and try your banana experiment. One of the
things I want to do is put temperature probes inside the two forms, and see
if one of them is substantially hotter than the other when exposed to
direct sunlight. We would, of course, expect the pyramid to be somewhat
hotter, because its sides will be more perpendicular to the sun's rays, but
it should be pretty simple to compensate mathematically for that
difference.

I'm also interested in determining whether the compressibility of limestone
is sufficient to account for the deviation from the equilateral that we see
in the Great Pyramid of Cheops. I'm sure that petrologists have studied the
compressibility of calcareous rocks, but I don't have anything handy that
gives any numbers. What I need would be something on the lines of a
"coefficient of deformation per unit of time" for limestone. However, since
such a relationship would likely be non-linear, it would be depicted by a
formula rather than by a specific number. Once I had such a formula, I
could plug in 4600 years as the time span and find the average value for
the deformation within a structure that had an initial height of 540 feet.
If it came out to be about 3.5%, then I would conclude that the faces of
the Great Pyramid were originally equilateral triangles. (This assumes the
original capstone was about 35 feet high--a fact that I'm not sure of
either, as it happens.)

I still see no reason to expect anomalous behavior from pyramids, but the
subject seems worth a brief look.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>This character Berger was also a dowser who worked with a number of methods
>including a pendulum.  That was what originally made me think that perhaps
>throwing a pyramid into the works might prove interesting in Kyle's
>experiment, and some of the ES experiments as well.  I still think that it
>wouldn't hurt to have at least one around in the lab just for weird fun if
>nothing else.
>
>I'm also still puzzling out how Fred pulled the microwave absorber idea out
>of thin air. ;)

***{His post left me scratching my head. Microwaves from what source? And
why would a pyramid absorb them any better than any other geometric form
made from the same materials? --MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 07:30:09 2000
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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:23:59 -0500
From: Jon Flickinger <jonfli informatics.net>
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Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
References: <00f301c021df$6af77600$b5441d26 fjsparber>
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Hi Frederick,

Frederick Sparber wrote:

> A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters in cross section
> and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance)shows a "resonance" with
>  ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.

How did you measure the resonance frequency of this current loop?

> Since a parallel resonant circuit (antiresonance) requires that Xc = 1/[2(pi)fC]
> equals Xl = 2(pi)fL, given that a two-wire transmission line (Lecher Line) has
> a near light-speed velocity of ~ 0.98c, where the velocity of light in vacuum  = 1/(LC)^1/2,
> what would the value of L and C of this Single Current Loop be?
>
> Would increasing the diameter of the Loop to a meter or more, decrease L and C and
> thus raise the pulse velocity?
>
> Wouldn't increasing the number of turns increase L and C, and thus slow down
> the pulse velocity?
>
> Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 08:29:58 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CNN.com - Nature - Farm looks to fuel cells to help with the chores - September
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:22:12 -0700
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Cow Poop to Kilowatts.

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/09/18/farm.fuel.enn/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 08:57:48 2000
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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:01:25 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
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Say, wouldn't any net extra negative ions concentrate at the apex of the
pyramid? What effect does this have on nearby bio samples? An improved
electrostatic field gradient from hiV wires  increases the germination, the
growth rate, and the yield of subsequent crops. Maybe the Egyptians knew
what they were doing after all. And now that I think about it, I can also
recall at least one report of high voltage ES effects taking place on one
of the Egyptian pyramids. If a pyramid raises the local field gradient and
this increases crop yield, any time traveller could perhaps go back and
tell them this. It doesn't always have to be only Frederick.  ;-) 

Colin Quinney

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 09:20:08 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Distributed Generation article in EVWorld
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See:

http://www.evworld.com/

Distributed Generation To The Rescue?
Interview with Ritchie Priddy 

Interesting comments on marketing and regulations concerning some of the
conventional energy devices we have discussed here.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 09:40:15 2000
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 <200009190151.VAA23752 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:38:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
Resent-Message-ID: <"OXBYY2.0.Kx5.sQvnv" mx1>
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>Say, wouldn't any net extra negative ions concentrate at the apex of the
>pyramid? What effect does this have on nearby bio samples? An improved
>electrostatic field gradient from hiV wires  increases the germination, the
>growth rate, and the yield of subsequent crops. Maybe the Egyptians knew
>what they were doing after all. And now that I think about it, I can also
>recall at least one report of high voltage ES effects taking place on one
>of the Egyptian pyramids. If a pyramid raises the local field gradient and
>this increases crop yield, any time traveller could perhaps go back and
>tell them this. It doesn't always have to be only Frederick.  ;-)
>
>Colin Quinney

***{God, how I hate this talk about time travel, even when it is in jest.
The reason: the world is full of people who take it seriously, and believe
it is possible. That, to me, ruins it as a subject for humor. Hell, I can't
even stand the subject when it comes up in movies and books. As soon as it
becomes apparent that a video is about time travel, I pull it out of my VCR
and put in something else. The other day, I started reading *The Gallatin
Divergence*, by L. Neil Smith (one of my favorite writers, by the way), and
when, on page 3 or so, one of the characters began babbling on about
assassins traveling back in time to assassinate Andrew Gallatin (Thomas
Jefferson's Secretary of the Treasury), I became so disgusted that I hurled
the book into the nearest trash can. (The idea that it is necessary to
assassinate someone who has been dead for more than 150 years is beyond
ludicrous.) Oddly, I have no qualms about books or movies about vampires,
werewolves, or similar things that everyone agrees are absurd. I can accept
the framework of the plot--e.g., that immortal, blood-sucking humanoids
exist, or that the full moon can transform a suitably afflicted human into
a wolf--without so much as a blink, precisely *because* nobody seriously
argues that it is anything but bullshit. Time travel, on the other hand, I
cannot abide, because, though it is even more absurd than vampires and
werewolves, the world is filled with people who actually believe it is
possible. --Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 10:13:57 2000
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b5ed407cc3f5 [207.8.127.72]>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000919120125.0186e7d0 inforamp.net>
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I've noticed on Vortex that threads often start from someone telling us how
impossible something is. There are so many here who consider just that in
itself, a challenge. I agree with you though. Time travel is impossible, at
least in the backwards direction. But I thought everybody knew this, that
it can't be disputed. That's why I always enjoy a good cowboy time travel
science fiction adventure. I realize that it's impossible. 

(At least when excluding the Many Worlds Hypothesis) <g>

Colin Quinney


At 11:38 AM 09/19/00 -0500, MJ}*** wrote:
>
>***{God, how I hate this talk about time travel, even when it is in jest.
>The reason: the world is full of people who take it seriously, and believe
>it is possible. That, to me, ruins it as a subject for humor. Hell, I can't
>even stand the subject when it comes up in movies and books. As soon as it
>becomes apparent that a video is about time travel, I pull it out of my VCR
>and put in something else. The other day, I started reading *The Gallatin
>Divergence*, by L. Neil Smith (one of my favorite writers, by the way), and
>when, on page 3 or so, one of the characters began babbling on about
>assassins traveling back in time to assassinate Andrew Gallatin (Thomas
>Jefferson's Secretary of the Treasury), I became so disgusted that I hurled
>the book into the nearest trash can. (The idea that it is necessary to
>assassinate someone who has been dead for more than 150 years is beyond
>ludicrous.) Oddly, I have no qualms about books or movies about vampires,
>werewolves, or similar things that everyone agrees are absurd. I can accept
>the framework of the plot--e.g., that immortal, blood-sucking humanoids
>exist, or that the full moon can transform a suitably afflicted human into
>a wolf--without so much as a blink, precisely *because* nobody seriously
>argues that it is anything but bullshit. Time travel, on the other hand, I
>cannot abide, because, though it is even more absurd than vampires and
>werewolves, the world is filled with people who actually believe it is
>possible. --Mitchell Jones}***
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 10:34:41 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Great Pyramid: Equilateral, or Not?
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Mitch writes:

 Time travel, on the other hand, I
>cannot abide, because, though it is even more absurd than vampires and
>werewolves, the world is filled with people who actually believe it is
>possible. --Mitchell Jones}***

Yeah OK, I won't talk about time travel anymore unless I see something I
think might be  real.  As for the pyramid, I was looking around this place,
and it looks like the covers off of old phonebooks might be sturdy and large
enough for a pyramid that would hold a banana or two.  The local grocery
store was offering some very ripe bananas on sale for 27 cents a pound the
other day, so I bought a bunch, and stuck them in the refrigerator.  They
lasted exactly 4 days before the skins started turning brown.  It seems like
almost anything would be an improvement over that.

I'm not going to do any major controlled experiments with them, as I think
that this would be an excellent project for kids, but I would like to have
one pyramid  around.  I've got the right paper and tape, why not?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Two main mysteries in Clarke papers
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[It isn't good form to discuss an unpublished pre-print of a paper, but
Murray chimed in with his ideas about the Clarke paper, so why shouldn't I?
My ideas are less cosmic than Murray's. Mostly I can't make head or tail of
it. Spectroscopy is VERY complicated! - JR]


Dear Dr. Clarke,

Thank you again for the copies of the two papers. It seems to me you report
two very baffling mysteries:

1. The extrapolated date on which the tritium first appeared in the system.

2. The lack of helium-4.

I cannot imagine what could have caused mystery #1. If anything, I would
expect a little tritium to leak from the palladium container, leaving
excess helium-3, which would push the apparent creation date to a time
earlier than it really was. I do have an idea about mystery #2, however.
Have you considered the possibility that the palladium container itself
produced excess heat in the outside wall? Perhaps it acted like a standard
bulk palladium cathode. An SEM examination of the outside wall of the
container might reveal signs of damage, such as those observed by Mizuno
and Ohmori and shown in Mizuno's book "Nuclear Transmutation" p. 102 (and
on the cover). Minute areas of the container surface might be transmuted,
but I think this to be difficult to observe with confidence after all the
handling the container has been through.

Perhaps the excess heat was generated on the outside wall, the helium
escaped into the electrolyte, and weeks after the reverse electrolysis
phase of the experiment, conditions inside the cell in the Pd-black gave
rise to tritium production. This would explain both mysteries.

I would not expect any excess heat on the inside wall. There have been some
experiments with diaphragm cathodes, which are loaded on one side only. The
deuterium gas escapes from the back, and as far as I know there is never
any sign of the cold fusion reaction on the back side.

There seems to be a trend in cold fusion experiments: some produce no
reaction or products; some produce heat and helium-4; and some produce
tritium. Helium and tritium are mutually exclusive. Ed Storms thinks the
morphology of surface may give rise to one reaction or the other.
Alternatively, he thinks the ratio of hydrogen to deuterium may play a
role. Akito Takahashi once told me he thinks low loading produces tritium
without detectable heat, and hyperloaded cathodes produce helium and heat.
However, this is not in evidence. All cathodes are partly loaded before
they become fully loaded, yet they do not all produce tritium in the early
stages. All hyperloaded cathodes have spots on them which are less highly
loaded, yet they do not always produce tritium.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 13:23:31 2000
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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
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>At 11:35 AM 9/18/0, Larry Wharton wrote:
>
> >   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
>otations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers
> >that have been accepted for publication.
>
>
>Can this "negative viscosity" be induced in plasma or liquid state
>vortices?  If such a state could be induced in a mercury vortex, for
>example, it should be a fairly easy matter to both induce waves and to tap
>kinetic energy by use of magnetohydrodynamics.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid 
state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed 
however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce 
energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy 
generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This 
application would then just be an engine.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 14:53:10 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <2b.ae27238.26f7e647 aol.com> <47jdssgj58091pumqf3o765qu06m06camb@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  Tstolper aol.com's message of Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:42:31 EDT:
> [snip]
> >Huh?  How would a negatively charged hydrino/deuterino hydride get past those
> >negatively charged electrons around the nucleus of every atom higher in the
> >periodic table than hydrogen?
>
> First, we're looking at something < 1/10 the size of an H atom (and maybe
> much less, perhaps 1/100 - 1/1000). Second, how does a negative muon do it?
> It displaces one of the existing electrons as a consequence of its charge,
> and takes up an orbit much closer to the nucleus, as a consequence of its
> mass. Presumably an "extremely heavy" very small negatively charged ion
> could do the same. After all, they "look" the same don't they? ;)
>
A fairly detailed (HTML) overview of muon catalyzed fusion
can be found in a thesis at:
http://musr.physics.ubc.ca/theses/Fujiwara/node6.html
No mention is made of interactions with heavier atoms than tritium.
-
In  "Hybrid nuclear reactors" by H.Nifenecker; S.David, J.M.Loiseaux, A.Giorni
of the Institut des Sciences Nucl�aires
found at:
http://isnwww.in2p3.fr/reacteurs-hybrides/PPNPport/node87.html
The section at the ***** mentions heavy nucleus capture as a possibility.

Muon catalyzed fusion
Muon catalyzed d-t fusion has been suggested as a possible means for producing
high yields of 14 MeV neutrons. As an example we cite the proposal by
C.Petitjean et al.[91]. In the muon catalyzed fusion process, negative muons are
captured on lower Bohr'orbit of deuterium or tritium atoms. The muon's orbit
radius is around 2.5 fermis, close to the nuclear radius , so that the Coulomb
field of the deuteron (or triton) is almost cancelled. The probability of fusion
of the muon accompanied deuton or triton with another t or d nucleus becomes
large. After fusion, most often, the muon is shaked out and becomes available
for another cycle until it decays
*******or is captured by a heavy nucleus.*******
It has been found that up to 150 fusions per muon can be obtained. According to
C.Petitjean et al. the optimum beam-target combination for negative pion, and
thus, negative muon, production is a beam of 1.5 GeV deuterons impinging on a
Carbon target. The HETC[59] simulation gives a maximum negative pion yield of
0.16. It follows that the maximum possible number of produced 14 MeV neutrons
per GeV of deuteron is around 15. These neutrons could be further multiplied by
(n,2n) and, even (n,3n), reactions. A multiplication factor of 2 seems a
maximum. Finally we see that no more than 30 neutrons par GeV-deuton can be
produced. Since not all muons will be captured by the heavy hydrogen atoms a
maximum number of 15 is more probable. This is a factor 2 below the neutron
yield from protons on Uranium. Note the advantage that the pion production
target can be completely decoupled from the neutron source. However the (d,t)
cell requires high pressures and there is the need of a high magnetic field for
countaining and focusing the muons. It is doubtful that this technique could be
used competitively.
-
Does anyone have more information on muon capture by a heavy nucleus?
This interaction could be very relevant to understanding possible hydrino
hydride
interactions with heavier atoms.
-

George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 17:15:19 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jumping on my coat tails, put me down, then this?

Bogus, unethical, boarderline criminal.  Anyone that can't see is blind as a 
bat.


>From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400
>
>>At 11:35 AM 9/18/0, Larry Wharton wrote:
>>
>> >   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
>>otations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers
>> >that have been accepted for publication.
>>
>>
>>Can this "negative viscosity" be induced in plasma or liquid state
>>vortices?  If such a state could be induced in a mercury vortex, for
>>example, it should be a fairly easy matter to both induce waves and to tap
>>kinetic energy by use of magnetohydrodynamics.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>
>Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid
>state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed
>however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce
>energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy
>generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This
>application would then just be an engine.
>
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:03:15 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:33:16 +1100
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In reply to  Larry Wharton's message of Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400:
[snip]
>Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid 
>state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed 
>however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce 
>energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy 
>generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This 
>application would then just be an engine.
[snip]
I think the (perhaps obvious) question is: Can the source of heat be
environmental heat? I.e. can negative viscosity be used to convert random
thermal energy of the environment into organised mechanical energy
(producing a fluid that is colder than the environment)?

While you scoff at David Dennard, my intuition (see *) says that just maybe
you and he are looking at the same phenomenon, but from different
perspectives.
You look at it from a theoretical point of view, while he tends to see it
more from an engineering point of view (and possibly as a consequence is
mistaken about the actual source of the energy).

* Useful processes frequently result from the interaction between two
different forces (in this case perhaps the electrical forces between atoms
and molecules with the gravitational force?). Which of course doesn't imply
that gravity would be the energy source.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:03:46 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
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Borderline.  Come on folks, this is absurd.  Try to railroad me off the list 
and some big shot comes in behind taking up my subject is so far from right 
it stinks all over these pages.


>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:11:17 PDT
>
>Jumping on my coat tails, put me down, then this?
>
>Bogus, unethical, boarderline criminal.  Anyone that can't see is blind as 
>a
>bat.
>
>
>>From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400
>>
>>>At 11:35 AM 9/18/0, Larry Wharton wrote:
>>>
>>> >   Recently there has been some understanding of the fact that waves
>>>otations this terminology has not been inserted in any papers
>>> >that have been accepted for publication.
>>>
>>>
>>>Can this "negative viscosity" be induced in plasma or liquid state
>>>vortices?  If such a state could be induced in a mercury vortex, for
>>>example, it should be a fairly easy matter to both induce waves and to 
>>>tap
>>>kinetic energy by use of magnetohydrodynamics.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Horace Heffner
>>
>>Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid
>>state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed
>>however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce
>>energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy
>>generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This
>>application would then just be an engine.
>>
>>Lawrence E. Wharton
>>NASA/GSFC code 913
>>Greenbelt MD 20771
>>(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:30:04 2000
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That's possible Robin, you should be a politition, but I stand on gravity 
drive, the cosmological constant, the paradigm shift.  And so do the flat 
space teams from Princeton to Berkeley.

And what Larry is taling about is not what I am saying, but it is the same 
kinda thing.  I'm talking hurricane power, he is talking tornado power, 
related but a big difference in power potential.

David


>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:33:16 +1100
>
>In reply to  Larry Wharton's message of Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400:
>[snip]
> >Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid
> >state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed
> >however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce
> >energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy
> >generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This
> >application would then just be an engine.
>[snip]
>I think the (perhaps obvious) question is: Can the source of heat be
>environmental heat? I.e. can negative viscosity be used to convert random
>thermal energy of the environment into organised mechanical energy
>(producing a fluid that is colder than the environment)?
>
>While you scoff at David Dennard, my intuition (see *) says that just maybe
>you and he are looking at the same phenomenon, but from different
>perspectives.
>You look at it from a theoretical point of view, while he tends to see it
>more from an engineering point of view (and possibly as a consequence is
>mistaken about the actual source of the energy).
>
>* Useful processes frequently result from the interaction between two
>different forces (in this case perhaps the electrical forces between atoms
>and molecules with the gravitational force?). Which of course doesn't imply
>that gravity would be the energy source.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: Clarke: N, O isotopic anomalies from D on Pd-black? 9.13.00
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:29:17 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  George Holz's message of Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:45:04 -0400:
[snip]
>large. After fusion, most often, the muon is shaked out and becomes available
>for another cycle until it decays
>*******or is captured by a heavy nucleus.*******

I believe they are referring to the helium nucleus that results from the
fusion.
[snip]
If the mechanism I previously described is valid, then it might prove
possible to take advantage of this to facilitate some of the "clean"
aneutronic nuclear reactions, that conventional fusion has always had it's
eye on, such as P - B11.
In this case, the P would be an H-(p<1/10), and the B would probably be part
of some gaseous boron compound. Helium could be used as the Mills catalyst,
and the energetic helium nuclei resulting from the nuclear reaction would
ionise tens of thousands of other helium atoms such that these could act as
catalysts in turn. (He+ is a Mills catalyst).
Nuclear reactions in general produce at least a thousand times as much
energy as hydrino shrinkage reactions. This could mean that the ultimate
role of hydrinos in energy production may turn out to be as a facilitator of
nuclear reactions, rather than as a direct energy source.
The factor 1000 energy amplification that is achieved thus, may also
ultimately turn out to be just what is needed to make hydrinos a commercial
success.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:53:54 2000
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:42:54 PDT
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And one more point.  Most everyone that voted to have me moved has not read 
my posts or have me on block so they do not and have not been reading what I 
have said.

My posts are on topic, Whirlpower is a ZPE device under construction, now 
backed by Dr. Michio Kaku's team.  The science is valid.

If I am removed from this it will be blaten suppresion, bogus, borderline 
criminal, so some big shot can come in and take over on vortex power 
discusion.  Anyone that does not see this action is blind as a bat.  Think, 
how would you feel, if you had been cursed, called names, ignored, never 
allowed to have a discussion after trying so hard.

David


>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:22:44 PDT
>
>That's possible Robin, you should be a politition, but I stand on gravity
>drive, the cosmological constant, the paradigm shift.  And so do the flat
>space teams from Princeton to Berkeley.
>
>And what Larry is taling about is not what I am saying, but it is the same
>kinda thing.  I'm talking hurricane power, he is talking tornado power,
>related but a big difference in power potential.
>
>David
>
>
>>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:33:16 +1100
>>
>>In reply to  Larry Wharton's message of Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:21:50 -0400:
>>[snip]
>> >Yes the negative viscosity will work fine in a plasma or a liquid
>> >state.  In the plasma an external applied magnetic field is needed
>> >however.  So far there is no proof that the phenomena will produce
>> >energy.  I am only looking into applications where input heat energy
>> >generates the vortex waves which will then produce rotation.  This
>> >application would then just be an engine.
>>[snip]
>>I think the (perhaps obvious) question is: Can the source of heat be
>>environmental heat? I.e. can negative viscosity be used to convert random
>>thermal energy of the environment into organised mechanical energy
>>(producing a fluid that is colder than the environment)?
>>
>>While you scoff at David Dennard, my intuition (see *) says that just 
>>maybe
>>you and he are looking at the same phenomenon, but from different
>>perspectives.
>>You look at it from a theoretical point of view, while he tends to see it
>>more from an engineering point of view (and possibly as a consequence is
>>mistaken about the actual source of the energy).
>>
>>* Useful processes frequently result from the interaction between two
>>different forces (in this case perhaps the electrical forces between atoms
>>and molecules with the gravitational force?). Which of course doesn't 
>>imply
>>that gravity would be the energy source.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:54:49 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: What is Vortex-L?
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On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:


> Is this list just about cold fusion, Infinite Energy Magazine, Scott
> Little, ect. 

***YES***    Exactly.


The main goal of the group is to replicate reported anomalies, NOT to
verify somebody's untested speculations.  The typical users here are
scientists, engineers, and advanced hobbyists in experimental science. 


> Is this a private list pretending to be a public list.  That's what it 
> looks like to me.


That's exactly what it is.  Vortex-L is a longrunning online community
with a fair number of regular users.  It's definitely NOT like an
unmoderated public newsgroup.  Vortex-L is a little private group, but
anyone can join.  I do not advertize it on my website, so it's "private" 
to that extent.  FREENRG-L is my advertized public list where free energy
devices are discussed (see the link near the top of
http://www.amasci.com/weird.html) 

Vortex-L is mostly a cold fusion list.   Didn't you know this?

As with any internet community, it's very wise for new subscribers to lurk
for awhile without posting.  Newcomers need to get to know the regulars
and learn how things are done.  You have clearly not done this, and that's
a main reason why people are sending complaints to you.

When new list users don't understand something, they should ask questions. 
How long have you been on Vortex-L?  FINALLY you are asking questions
about the list!

Anyone who wades in and huffily tries to force their own private topics
onto a preexisting internet group will be seen as boorish at best.  If
they do this over the objections of regular users, they'll look very bad
indeed.  It's a good way to make enemies.  It works that way on any
internet forum, and it certainly works that way here. 


> You guys just don't like it when I get attention.  Especially when I get 
> positive attention.  Then you start to go nuts.  Things go fine as long as 
> everyone has a good time putting me down.

"Putting you down?"  Regular vortex-L users have repeatedly made very
specific complaints about your behavior.  But you get defensive, ignore
them, and justify your behavior.  Bad move.  They are trying and trying to
tell you what kind of behavior is expected on Vortex-L.  Your ignoring
criticism from fellow users prevents you from ever learning what the group
is about, and it makes you look far worse than only boorish.

I must say, if you wanted to make a bad impression on fellow fringe-
science researchers, you've certainly succeeded.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 18:58:31 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
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>Borderline.  Come on folks, this is absurd.  Try to railroad me off the list
>and some big shot comes in behind taking up my subject is so far from right
>it stinks all over these pages.

***{Come on, David! Bill Beaty sent you a copy of the vortex rules when you
signed up, and rule 6b states very plainly: "Vortex l is for big shots."

So what are you complaining about? You should thank your lucky stars that
Bill let you get away with breaking the rules for as long as he did.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 19:01:59 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: A 1997 Wharton post on negative viscosity
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At 1:57 PM 11/18/97, Larry Wharton wrote:
[snip]
>  My theory of higher order entropy transport is based on standard accepted
>equation of fluid dynamics. In fact the entropy conservation equation is
>extraneous as the conservation equations of mass, momentum, and heat
>provide a complete description in themselves.  These conservation equations
>may be taken directly and applied to give the effects in my theory.  The
>most important effect is that of negative viscosity.  When the condition of
>a large force or a low density exists such that the density scale height is
>on the order of the particle mean free path the viscosity becomes negative.
>Of course negative viscosity is in contradiction to the second law of
>thermodynamics.  One may plug in to the entropy conservation formula and
>get a negative entropy production.  Instead of slowing down fluid flow,
>like in the case of positive viscosity, negative viscosity speeds it up.
>Probably few experts in fluid dynamics would believe in negative viscosity.
>Faced with the prospect that standard fluid dynamics predicts this, all
>such experts would most likely agree with the approach of B.C. Eu in which
>he attempts to modify the standard equations so that this effect is not
>allowed.
>  I most likely would not believe in negative viscosity if I did not have
>scientific data that clearly confirmed it.  In fact, I did not believe in
>it for a long time even though I did have this data.  The data comes from
>measurements of neutral temperature and winds taken from NASA satellites
>Atmosphere Explorer C, D, and E and Dynamics Explorer 1 and 2 .  The first
>anomaly was found in AE-E temperature measurements.  Here is was found that
>around midnight and near the equator the temperature would sometimes
>increase and sometimes it would actually get hotter than in the day time.
>This was very strange as the sun was the only known source of enough energy
>to cause so much heating and there was no sun at midnight.  This was
>reported in:
>
>"The Midnight Temperature Maximum in the Earth's Equatorial Thermosphere,"
>N. W. Spencer, G. R. Carignan, H. G. Mayr, H. B. Niemann, R. F. Theis and
>L. E. Wharton, Geophys. Res. Lett., 6, 444, 1979.
>
>There never was an acceptable explanation for this anomaly.  So, in fact,
>NASA was the first to discover excess heat.  There certainly was heating
>going on there and there was no known source of energy to account for this
>heat.
> The second anomaly I found from DE-2 data.  The normal wind patterns has
>the winds flowing from the hot dayside to the colder nightside.  This
>worked out as expected and I reported on some averaged winds in:
>
>"The Earth's Thermospheric Superrotation from Dynamics Explorer 2," L. E.
>Wharton,  N. W. Spencer and H. G. Mayr, Geophys. Res. Lett., 11, 531, 1984.
>
>
>There was a problem though. I found that at high enough altitudes the winds
>would increase as the altitude increased.  This seemed totally
>unbelievable.  Viscosity to a very good approximation would have no
>dependence on density.  Thus as the altitude increased the density would
>decrease exponentially but the viscosity would stay the same.  So the
>viscous force per particle, the kinematic viscosity, would increase
>exponentially.  All models of this region has a vanishing velocity shear as
>the altitude increases, as the high kinematic viscosity would not allow any
>significant shear.  My result seemed bogus, everyone told me that it was
>and I myself though it was bogus.
>  So I never published this altitude dependence result, thinking it was
>wrong.  Then later I found that the accepted form for higher order fluid
>dynamics actually predicted this strange result through negative viscosity.
>The strange heating at midnight then also made sense.  As the winds flowed
>from the dayside to the nightside they would actually speed up through
>negative viscosity effects.  As they converged on the nightside there would
>be a great clash as the winds, all heading for the same region and all
>speeding up, smashed together at night.  An analogy would be a train track
>circling the globe at the equator.  Then we start two trains in motion at
>opposite directions at noon.  At first the wind from the solar heating
>would start to push them.  Of course the friction of the train wheels would
>slow them down and there would be a balance between the wind force and the
>friction force.  Now lets suppose that the friction actually had the
>reverse effect and instead of slowing down the trains, it accelerated them.
>Then they would keep on accelerating until they crashed at night and the
>crash could generate a large amount of heat.
>  So NASA discovered excess heat in 1979 and the data that clearly showed
>the mechanism for the excess heat was obtained in 1984 but never published
>because it was thought to be bogus.  This mechanism was in direct violation
>of the second law of thermodynamics but in full agreement with existing
>equations of fluid dynamics.  It was the prevailing view of the second law
>that was wrong.  There are many experts on the second law.  People with
>little knowledge of physics, like Jed Rothwell, see themselves as great
>experts on this law and are certain it is always valid.  Only about 1% or
>less of physicists would have the knowledge of fluid dynamics to understand
>the effects in my theory but near 100% of physicists see themselves as
>experts on the second law and can state with total certainty that it is
>never violated.  Even among the very few physicists that know what is going
>on, the majority view is that the accepted equations of fluid dynamics
>should be changed so that the second law remains valid.  Of course these
>actual experts do not know about the only data that contradicts the second
>law, with the exception of one other person at NASA who knows about my DE
>winds analysis and who is an expert in the field, and he agrees with me.
>  So I guess it is time to get going on this subject.  It has been 13 years
>since the essential scientific data on this subject has been available but
>never published.  I have been able to understand what is going on and there
>is now a realization in the field that there is a problem with the second
>law.  Some may have a problem with essential data that was obtained at
>great expense to the taxpayers and never published.  The 5 AE and DE
>satellites cost about $50 million each so that is about $250 million in
>money at the time. With inflation and adding mission support and data
>analysis costs the figure would be something like $500 million in current
>dollars.  Of course the many great experts on the second law, like Jed
>Rothwell, know with absolute certainty that no energy may be produced in
>violation of this law and they would say that is not important that I did
>not publish critical data.  Just as Jed says that Gregg Watson is not
>responsible for millions of deaths for not shipping out his SMOT devices
>because it would not work, he should say that my delay problem has no
>deaths associated with it because it is impossible for my theory to work.
>  Still my situation is a potential prime candidate for Jed's millions of
>deaths on your hands scenario with problems of long delays and large
>amounts of taxpayer dollars involved.  At the time I was doing this
>research there were many of my colleges that were upset with me for doing
>bogus work.  There were problems of official disapproval, colleges walking
>out of seminars I gave when I got to the section where I showed the
>violation of the second law, and cases of my being removed from research
>projects in response to my bogus work.  Now from colleges that know that my
>work is fully consistent with standard accepted fluid dynamics, I get the
>reaction that everything is all my fault.  They say that I should have
>published my data analysis without regard to prevailing theories that may
>have disagreed with it.  To hear them tell it is as if they were
>encouraging me at the time to go ahead with my work.
>
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:51:52 -0700
(PDT):
[snip]
>As with any internet community, it's very wise for new subscribers to lurk
>for awhile without posting.  Newcomers need to get to know the regulars
>and learn how things are done.  You have clearly not done this, and that's
>a main reason why people are sending complaints to you.
Hi Bill,

This is probably partly my fault. When I first came across David's notions
on the web I recommended that he join Vortex as it was originally set up to
discuss vortex related matters. I thought everyone might benefit from the
interaction. Sadly this is not turning out to be the case.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 19:09:35 2000
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Subject: Dennard's first post to vortex
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At 6:33 PM 9/20/98, David Dennard wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Everybody,
>> >
>> > This is David Dennard, author of Whirlpower Theory.  From what I
>>understand
>> >
>> > there has been some discussion here about this, so I would like to hear
>> > some
>> > of
>> > your thoughts.  I know Whirlpower probably goes into the "crackpot theory"
>> > catagory, but let me say there are a number of credible people that have
>> > looked
>> > at my work and think it possible.
>> >
>> > Plus, I have been giving full disclosure for over a year now and allowed
>> > full
>> >
>> > scrutiny of my theory.  So far there is no disproof.  I know that is a
>>long
>> >
>> > way
>> > from proof but it does eliminate duplicity, and does show I am not trying
>> > to
>> > pull some kind of trick.
>> >
>> > My approach to this is not from science, although I took a number of
>> > physics
>> > courses in college I am by no means a scientist.  The truth is, the idea
>> > came
>> > to
>> > me in a dream.
>> >
>> > The most amazing thing about Whirlpower is its simplicity.  A child should
>> > be
>> >
>> > able to understand it.  It does however appear beyond even the smartest
>> > scientists to explain it in scientific terms.
>> >
>> > There is a full Whirlpower Theory page put up for me by Dutch Physicist
>> > Edward
>> > Maesen at; <www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html>.  Here a full
>> > discription can be seen complete with moving graphics showing the action I
>> > propose to tap.
>> >
>> > My theory has also been confirmed by Curt Halberg at Vortex World in
>> > Sweden.
>> >
>> > This site contains historical information of similar works, most noteably,
>> > Viktor Schauberger.  His is probably the closest to mine in historical
>> > literature but also very different.  Vortex World also has the test of
>> > principle
>> > model.  It is a water cleaning devise they built a few years ago.
>>They did
>> >
>> > not
>> > know or were they trying to build Whirlpower when this prototype was made,
>> > but
>> > after they found out about my theory they remembered something they saw
>> > that
>> > confirms Whirlpower in principle.  Further work is underway.  Vortex World
>> > is
>> >
>> > at; <home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html>
>> >
>> > Furthermore, Dan Winter has confirmed my theory.  Dan has an excellent
>>work
>> >
>> > up
>> > at <www.danwinter.com>.  We just a few days ago had a wonderful
>>meeting and
>> >
>> > he
>> > is working of the mathmatical formulation and will be putting up a
>>complete
>> >
>> > Whirlpower section very soon.
>> >
>> > Most of my work so far on the internet has been done on the Science and
>> > Spirituality List at Spiritweb, <www.spiritweb.org>.  Here is a chronical
>> > of
>> > debate and discussion going on for a year.  Just recently the list
>>operator
>> >
>> > announced he thought Whirlpower might work and believe me it was no easy
>> > job
>> > getting him to say that.
>> >
>> > Now, I am here.  I hope to have a good discussion.  Since it was just
>> > announced
>> > on Network TV that during this past year almost everything science thought
>> > about
>> > the vortex has been proven to be wrong.  So if you are going by "Old
>>Dogma"
>> >
>> > in
>> > your arguments you might want to catch up on the latest.
>> >
>> > Whirlpower is not "free energy" and does have a source of energy.  It
>>is no
>> >
>> > more
>> > "free energy" than solar.
>> >
>> > Whirlpower harnesses the force of gravity.
>> >
>> > Please check out the Whirlpower page.  Ask questions.  Criticize me.  Call
>> > me
>> >
>> > names.  But I hope there will be some here that are interested in helping
>> > me
>> > find out if Whirlpower works, not just telling me it doesn't.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > David Dennard
>> >

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Thanks for being called names, ignored, cursed, put on block?

or as Steve Ekwall said;

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw
Dennard writing to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and
taking a physics bashing.  He is truely on to something most of
those best minds could only say poo or huff when they couldn't
see/feel or FIGURE it out.
What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE
ESSENCE!  I'm a simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T
GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!!  I've messed up my kitchen more times
than my wife (Laura) would want to admit, just playing with this..
THE POWER IS THERE!
...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER
the upper pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null /
area is tapable once the process is STARTED up. One must be
careful not to snuff or stiffle the vortex (or Power) itself... I
think I can do THAT about 100 different ways (ha.haa) -
Well, just an intro of another on a growing list, I'm all wet
in my kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple 
Whirlpower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the
Bigger the better!!

Steve Ekwall

******

Poo or huff was all they could say.

But now, "scientists are going to have to give up their most precious 
beliefs".  Dr. Vera Rubin (ABC NEWS)

And poo and huff you folks kept on, never allowing any discussion.

And NOW Dr. Michio Kaku's Team is backing Whirlpower.

And still poo and huff.

Then try and vote me off so someone else can take up vortex power 
discussion?  No way will I stand for it!!!!  :(

Bill will have to throw me off.  And all this will go straight to Kaku's 
List.

David






>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Comments on Vortex Dynamics
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:45:18 -0500
>
> >Borderline.  Come on folks, this is absurd.  Try to railroad me off the 
>list
> >and some big shot comes in behind taking up my subject is so far from 
>right
> >it stinks all over these pages.
>
>***{Come on, David! Bill Beaty sent you a copy of the vortex rules when you
>signed up, and rule 6b states very plainly: "Vortex l is for big shots."
>
>So what are you complaining about? You should thank your lucky stars that
>Bill let you get away with breaking the rules for as long as he did.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 20:23:21 2000
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Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> I've noticed on Vortex that threads often start from someone telling us how
> impossible something is. There are so many here who consider just that in
> itself, a challenge. I agree with you though. Time travel is impossible, at
> least in the backwards direction. But I thought everybody knew this, that
> it can't be disputed. That's why I always enjoy a good cowboy time travel
> science fiction adventure. I realize that it's impossible.
> 
> (At least when excluding the Many Worlds Hypothesis) <g>

But many scientific experiments clearly show that retro-causality is
possible, e.g. http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/

Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix

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Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates a
> magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?
> 

Of course! Larson's Reciprocal System is clear about it.  It's not the
charge
anyway, it's the electron, whether or not it's charged.  The magnetic
field
is the two dimensional residue of three dimensional gravity when one
of its three dimensions is partially neutralized by the one dimensional
motion
of the electron. See http://www.interpres.cz/sr/ce/dimmot.htm

Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 21:53:26 2000
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Well I've never met any time travellers and I don't know anybody who has.
If I did, I wouldn't tell anybody anyway.. ( except maybe to Frederick ;-) 

I just read some of the fourmilab material. They seem to have covered their
extraordinary claims with extraordinary evidence, but I didn't see that.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Colin Quinney

At 08:17 PM 09/19/00 -0700, Hoyt Stearns wrote:
>
>Colin Quinney wrote:
>> 
>> I've noticed on Vortex that threads often start from someone telling us how
>> impossible something is. There are so many here who consider just that in
>> itself, a challenge. I agree with you though. Time travel is impossible, at
>> least in the backwards direction. But I thought everybody knew this, that
>> it can't be disputed. That's why I always enjoy a good cowboy time travel
>> science fiction adventure. I realize that it's impossible.
>> 
>> (At least when excluding the Many Worlds Hypothesis) <g>
>
>But many scientific experiments clearly show that retro-causality is
>possible, e.g. http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 19 21:57:43 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
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In a message dated 9/19/00 7:30:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jonfli informatics.net writes:

> Hi Frederick,
>  
>  Frederick Sparber wrote:
>  
>  > A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters in 
> cross section
>  > and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance)shows a 
"resonance"
>  with
>  >  ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.
>  
>  How did you measure the resonance frequency of this current loop?
>  
I will answer the question since I did the measurement.
A sweep generator was used to drive a high frequency power transistor feeding
the loop. A scope displayed the sweep waveform. Actually it was not a 
resonance
observed but a "dip" in the observed waveform at ~14.2 MHz where the voltage
on the loop decreased to almost zero. Nominal loop voltage was ~15 volts, 
current
~ 800 milliamps.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

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Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
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--- VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> >  > A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters
> in cross section
> >  > and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance) shows a 
> "resonance" with ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.
> >  
> >  How did you measure the resonance frequency of this current loop?
> >  
> I will answer the question since I did the measurement.
> A sweep generator was used to drive a high frequency power transistor
> feeding
> the loop. A scope displayed the sweep waveform. Actually it was not a 
> resonance
> observed but a "dip" in the observed waveform at ~14.2 MHz where the
> voltage
> on the loop decreased to almost zero. Nominal loop voltage was ~15 volts,
> current ~ 800 milliamps.

A 1 m circumference conducting loop should show a drive-point impedance
minimum (resonance) at about 150 MHz. Are you sure you did not make a
decimal point mistake?  If not, what was the nature and length of the cable
from the power transistor?  You should be able to get the same resonance
without the transistor and its possible complications by driving the loop
directly from the sweep generator through a 50 Ohm cable. The voltage
magnitude will be lower, but it should still be readable on the
oscilloscope.



=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 01:29:32 2000
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Subject: Re: A 1997 Wharton post on negative viscosity
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>At 1:57 PM 11/18/97, Larry Wharton wrote:
>[snip]
>>  My theory of higher order entropy transport is based on standard accepted
>>equation of fluid dynamics. In fact the entropy conservation equation is
>>extraneous as the conservation equations of mass, momentum, and heat
>>provide a complete description in themselves.  These conservation equations
>>may be taken directly and applied to give the effects in my theory.  The
>>most important effect is that of negative viscosity.  When the condition of
>>a large force or a low density exists such that the density scale height is
>>on the order of the particle mean free path the viscosity becomes negative.
>>Of course negative viscosity is in contradiction to the second law of
>>thermodynamics.  One may plug in to the entropy conservation formula and
>>get a negative entropy production.  Instead of slowing down fluid flow,
>>like in the case of positive viscosity, negative viscosity speeds it up.
>>Probably few experts in fluid dynamics would believe in negative viscosity.
>>Faced with the prospect that standard fluid dynamics predicts this, all
>>such experts would most likely agree with the approach of B.C. Eu in which
>>he attempts to modify the standard equations so that this effect is not
>>allowed.
>>  I most likely would not believe in negative viscosity if I did not have
>>scientific data that clearly confirmed it.  In fact, I did not believe in
>>it for a long time even though I did have this data.  The data comes from
>>measurements of neutral temperature and winds taken from NASA satellites
>>Atmosphere Explorer C, D, and E and Dynamics Explorer 1 and 2 .  The first
>>anomaly was found in AE-E temperature measurements.  Here is was found that
>>around midnight and near the equator the temperature would sometimes
>>increase and sometimes it would actually get hotter than in the day time.
>>This was very strange as the sun was the only known source of enough energy
>>to cause so much heating and there was no sun at midnight.  This was
>>reported in:
>>
>>"The Midnight Temperature Maximum in the Earth's Equatorial Thermosphere,"
>>N. W. Spencer, G. R. Carignan, H. G. Mayr, H. B. Niemann, R. F. Theis and
>>L. E. Wharton, Geophys. Res. Lett., 6, 444, 1979.
>>
>>There never was an acceptable explanation for this anomaly.  So, in fact,
>>NASA was the first to discover excess heat.  There certainly was heating
>>going on there and there was no known source of energy to account for this
>>heat.
>> The second anomaly I found from DE-2 data.  The normal wind patterns has
>>the winds flowing from the hot dayside to the colder nightside.  This
>>worked out as expected and I reported on some averaged winds in:
>>
>>"The Earth's Thermospheric Superrotation from Dynamics Explorer 2," L. E.
>>Wharton,  N. W. Spencer and H. G. Mayr, Geophys. Res. Lett., 11, 531, 1984.
>>
>>
>>There was a problem though. I found that at high enough altitudes the winds
>>would increase as the altitude increased.  This seemed totally
>>unbelievable.  Viscosity to a very good approximation would have no
>>dependence on density.  Thus as the altitude increased the density would
>>decrease exponentially but the viscosity would stay the same.  So the
>>viscous force per particle, the kinematic viscosity, would increase
>>exponentially.  All models of this region has a vanishing velocity shear as
>>the altitude increases, as the high kinematic viscosity would not allow any
>>significant shear.  My result seemed bogus, everyone told me that it was
>>and I myself though it was bogus.
>>  So I never published this altitude dependence result, thinking it was
>>wrong.  Then later I found that the accepted form for higher order fluid
>>dynamics actually predicted this strange result through negative viscosity.
>>The strange heating at midnight then also made sense.  As the winds flowed
>>from the dayside to the nightside they would actually speed up through
>>negative viscosity effects.  As they converged on the nightside there would
>>be a great clash as the winds, all heading for the same region and all
>>speeding up, smashed together at night.  An analogy would be a train track
>>circling the globe at the equator.  Then we start two trains in motion at
>>opposite directions at noon.  At first the wind from the solar heating
>>would start to push them.  Of course the friction of the train wheels would
>>slow them down and there would be a balance between the wind force and the
>>friction force.  Now lets suppose that the friction actually had the
>>reverse effect and instead of slowing down the trains, it accelerated them.
>>Then they would keep on accelerating until they crashed at night and the
>>crash could generate a large amount of heat.
>>  So NASA discovered excess heat in 1979 and the data that clearly showed
>>the mechanism for the excess heat was obtained in 1984 but never published
>>because it was thought to be bogus.  This mechanism was in direct violation
>>of the second law of thermodynamics but in full agreement with existing
>>equations of fluid dynamics.  It was the prevailing view of the second law
>>that was wrong.  There are many experts on the second law.  People with
>>little knowledge of physics, like Jed Rothwell, see themselves as great
>>experts on this law and are certain it is always valid.  Only about 1% or
>>less of physicists would have the knowledge of fluid dynamics to understand
>>the effects in my theory but near 100% of physicists see themselves as
>>experts on the second law and can state with total certainty that it is
>>never violated.  Even among the very few physicists that know what is going
>>on, the majority view is that the accepted equations of fluid dynamics
>>should be changed so that the second law remains valid.  Of course these
>>actual experts do not know about the only data that contradicts the second
>>law, with the exception of one other person at NASA who knows about my DE
>>winds analysis and who is an expert in the field, and he agrees with me.
>>  So I guess it is time to get going on this subject.  It has been 13 years
>>since the essential scientific data on this subject has been available but
>>never published.  I have been able to understand what is going on and there
>>is now a realization in the field that there is a problem with the second
>>law.  Some may have a problem with essential data that was obtained at
>>great expense to the taxpayers and never published.  The 5 AE and DE
>>satellites cost about $50 million each so that is about $250 million in
>>money at the time. With inflation and adding mission support and data
>>analysis costs the figure would be something like $500 million in current
>>dollars.  Of course the many great experts on the second law, like Jed
>>Rothwell, know with absolute certainty that no energy may be produced in
>>violation of this law and they would say that is not important that I did
>>not publish critical data.  Just as Jed says that Gregg Watson is not
>>responsible for millions of deaths for not shipping out his SMOT devices
>>because it would not work, he should say that my delay problem has no
>>deaths associated with it because it is impossible for my theory to work.
>>  Still my situation is a potential prime candidate for Jed's millions of
>>deaths on your hands scenario with problems of long delays and large
>>amounts of taxpayer dollars involved.  At the time I was doing this
>>research there were many of my colleges that were upset with me for doing
>>bogus work.  There were problems of official disapproval, colleges walking
>>out of seminars I gave when I got to the section where I showed the
>>violation of the second law, and cases of my being removed from research
>>projects in response to my bogus work.  Now from colleges that know that my
>>work is fully consistent with standard accepted fluid dynamics, I get the
>>reaction that everything is all my fault.  They say that I should have
>>published my data analysis without regard to prevailing theories that may
>>have disagreed with it.  To hear them tell it is as if they were
>>encouraging me at the time to go ahead with my work.
>>
>>Lawrence E. Wharton
>>NASA/GSFC code 913
>>Greenbelt MD 20771
>>(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

***{Wow, now *that* is interesting! Indeed, the mind reels. (Time to hit
the books, guys! :-)

As an aside, I would note that the above post by Larry was at 1:57 PM on
11/18/97, whereas David Dennard's first post to this group was at 6:33 PM
on 9/20/98, almost a year later. (Thank's Horace, for posting this
information.) Thus the insinuation by Dennard that "Big Shot" Larry is
trying to usurp his, Dennard's, rightful position on this list is
demonstrably false.

Why am I not surprised? :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop

Michael Schaffer wrote:


> --- VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> > >  > A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters
> > in cross section
> > >  > and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance) shows a 
> > "resonance" with ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.
> > >  
> > >  How did you measure the resonance frequency of this current loop?
> > >  
> > I will answer the question since I did the measurement.
> > A sweep generator was used to drive a high frequency power transistor
> > feeding
> > the loop. A scope displayed the sweep waveform. Actually it was not a 
> > resonance
> > observed but a "dip" in the observed waveform at ~14.2 MHz where the
> > voltage
> > on the loop decreased to almost zero. Nominal loop voltage was ~15 volts,
> > current ~ 800 milliamps.
> 
> A 1 m circumference conducting loop should show a drive-point impedance
> minimum (resonance) at about 150 MHz. Are you sure you did not make a
> decimal point mistake?  If not, what was the nature and length of the cable
> from the power transistor?  You should be able to get the same resonance
> without the transistor and its possible complications by driving the loop
> directly from the sweep generator through a 50 Ohm cable. The voltage
> magnitude will be lower, but it should still be readable on the
> oscilloscope.

I gather that you are saying that the 1.0 meter circumference loop is a half-wavelength
at 150 Megahertz, Michael?

OTOH, resonance and minimum current can occur when the loop reactances
Xc = Xl or L*C =  1/[4(Pi)^2 * f^2]  which for 14.2 Megahertz = 1.256E-16 Henry-Farad
for this 1/(Pi) meter diameter loop.

IOW, the loop becomes a resonant "Tank Circuit" where oscillations swap the
energy back-and-forth between the inductance and capacitance and the only energy
draw is the I^2R loss of the milliohm resistance and radiation loss.

Assuming the vacuum ratio of L = 377^2 * C, the  (Xl or Xc) is ~ 625 ohms at resonance
and the current draw is very scant, which is typical for a parallel resonant "tank circuit".

Regards,   Frederick

> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 07:27:43 2000
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---

David, you continuously say you've never been given the chance for a
real discussion when you know full well that's not true.

What happens when anything is placed in front of you that you can't
confront is that you run away; either by changing the subject, clouding
the issue, or (as you have accused others of doing) burying your head in
the sand and pretending there's nothing there. 

Case in point, Nick Palmer posed a question a few days ago which would
give you a chance to more fully expound on your theory(ies), and even
though you said you'd be happy to answer the question you haven't.  

Since it pertains to whirlpower, it's sitting there waiting for you on
vortexb.

---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

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Hi Vince,

Very interesting! Was the loop in a horizontal plane when you did the
measurement(s) or...? I would think that the dip shows the L and C components of
this loop system to be in a series resonance equivalent connection. Was your
scope connection across the output of the switching transistor or in other words,
at the loop connection points?

Regards,

Jon Flickinger

VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/19/00 7:30:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jonfli informatics.net writes:
>
> > Hi Frederick,
> >
> >  Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> >  > A single current loop made from a copper conductor ~ 6 millimeters in
> > cross section
> >  > and ~ 1/(pi) meters major diameter (milliohm resistance)shows a
> "resonance"
> >  with
> >  >  ~ 14.2 Megahertz pulses.
> >
> >  How did you measure the resonance frequency of this current loop?
> >
> I will answer the question since I did the measurement.
> A sweep generator was used to drive a high frequency power transistor feeding
> the loop. A scope displayed the sweep waveform. Actually it was not a
> resonance
> observed but a "dip" in the observed waveform at ~14.2 MHz where the voltage
> on the loop decreased to almost zero. Nominal loop voltage was ~15 volts,
> current
> ~ 800 milliamps.
>
>   Regards,
>   Vince Cockeram
>   Las Vegas Nevada
>   702-254-2122

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Sunspot alert
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Watch out for bogus free energy indications!  Your meters may go whacky. 8^)


-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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                             A s t r o  A l e r t
                               Sun-Earth Alert

                          Solar Terrestrial Dispatch
                            http://www.spacew.com

                              19 September 2000

* One of the Largest Sunspot Groups so far this Solar Cycle comes into View
*
                   * Potential Major Solar Flare Warning *

POTENTIAL NAKED-EYE SUNSPOT

     On 18 September, one of the largest sunspot groups to be observed so
far
this solar cycle began rotating into view around the eastern limb of the
Sun.
The enormity of this region was never fully realized until today. This
sunspot group currently measures 6.51 BILLION square kilometers in size.
That
is large enough to map the entire surface area of the Earth within the
space
occupied by the sunspot complex almost 13 times over! In fact, this sunspot
group is so large that people equipped with eye protection may be able to
spot the sunspot complex with their naked eyes.

     DO NOT ATTEMPT TO VIEW THIS SUNSPOT WITHOUT ADEQUATE EYE PROTECTION!
YOU
COULD PERMANENTLY DAMAGE YOUR EYES!

     To view the Sun with your naked eyes, purchase material that has been
approved as safe for viewing the Sun and look through the material at the
Sun. Materials that are safe include shades 12 through 14 welder's glass
filters, aluminized Mylar specifically designed for viewing the Sun, and
black polymer filters. One of the most authoritative articles on safe solar
viewing appeared in the February 1998 issue of Sky & Telescope Magazine
(see
pages 36 through 40 of that issue). Do your eyes a favor and protect them
properly before attempting to spot this sunspot group with your naked eyes.

     This sunspot will gradually rotate across the face of the visible Sun
over the next 11 to 12 days. It will be optimally placed for spotting with
the naked eyes between approximately 21 through 26 September.

     This sunspot complex is also notable in another respect: it has the
size
and the magnetic complexity to produce very energetic solar flare activity.
Major class M and even large X-class solar x-ray flares are often observed
from sunspot groups that are as large as this region is. So far, this spot
complex has been remarkably quiet. Whether this trend will continue remains
to be seen. However, the potential exists for major levels of solar flare
activity from this spot complex over the next several days to perhaps
throughout much of the next 12 days if the region maintains its size and
complexity.

     Additional information as well as accompanying imagery from
professional
solar observatories showing this region are available at the web site:

                    http://www.spacew.com/astroalert.html


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 10:31:45 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: A 1997 Wharton post on negative viscosity
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At 1:57 PM 11/18/97, Larry Wharton wrote:
[snip]
>There was a problem though. I found that at high enough altitudes the winds
>would increase as the altitude increased.  This seemed totally
>unbelievable.  Viscosity to a very good approximation would have no
>dependence on density.  Thus as the altitude increased the density would
>decrease exponentially but the viscosity would stay the same.  So the
>viscous force per particle, the kinematic viscosity, would increase
>exponentially.  All models of this region has a vanishing velocity shear as
>the altitude increases, as the high kinematic viscosity would not allow any
>significant shear.  My result seemed bogus, everyone told me that it was
>and I myself though it was bogus.
>  So I never published this altitude dependence result, thinking it was
>wrong.  Then later I found that the accepted form for higher order fluid
>dynamics actually predicted this strange result through negative viscosity.
[snip]



There should be plenty of knowledge of high altitude regions embodied in
aircraft performance figures and aerodynamic simulations.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 10:40:12 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: A 1997 Wharton post on negative viscosity
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At 3:28 AM 9/20/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>As an aside, I would note that the above post by Larry was at 1:57 PM on
>11/18/97, whereas David Dennard's first post to this group was at 6:33 PM
>on 9/20/98, almost a year later. (Thank's Horace, for posting this
>information.)


You're certainly welcome.  Actually, that was implicitly my main point, as
well as the difference in the quality of the insight and the references to
supporting material.  I would also note that today is the 2nd anniversary
of Dennard's first post, thus his "years" of posting here now adds up to
exactly two.


>Thus the insinuation by Dennard that "Big Shot" Larry is
>trying to usurp his, Dennard's, rightful position on this list is
>demonstrably false.
>
>Why am I not surprised? :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 13:09:55 2000
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, David Dennard wrote:

> Bill will have to throw me off.

Self-important martyrs always want the list moderator to throw them off. 
It gives them an excuse to crow about being "suppressed."  On my lists
this has happened a couple times a year.  To turn their attempted
martyrdom against them I give them their own soapbox instead.

David now has his own vortexB soapbox, in addition to his list on egroups:

  http://www.egroups.com/group/whirlpower



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 20 16:43:15 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: HSG: Re: The meaning of n/weapons
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:52:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 20 Sep 00 08:48:52 -0400, "Dr. Randell L. Mills"
<blp41 earthlink.net> wrote:
It seems my understanding of Hydrino hydride was not as good as I thought it
was :(.
The following response from Dr. Mills on the hydrino study group list shows
that there is a minimum level for HH ions.
This doesn't necessarily throw a spanner in the works, where my previous
posts on "Coulomb slide" are concerned, but it does place limits.
Note however that while this does reveal a limit to the size of the HH, that
doesn't imply such a limit on the size of hydrinos per se.
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk  wrote:
>>Now I'm completely confused! First, what do you mean by the "last" stable
>>hydride ion (i.e. in what sense is it the last)?
>>
>>Second, in "techpres.pdf" you write:
>>"Hydrino hydride ions have extraordinary binding energies
>>(up to >70 eV for H-(1/16)) which may stabilise a cation in a
>>high oxidation state such as 2+ in the case of lithium."
>>If the binding energy of the second electron > 70 eV for H-(1/16), then how
>>can it be only 0.65 eV for p=1/24?
>
>
>The calculation of the hydride binding energies is given in Chp 7.  The 
>energies are given By Eq. (7.55) and Table 7.2.  The neutral hydrogen 
>atom has an unpaired electron that attracts a second electron due to a 
>magnetic force between the unpaired electrons.  There are two competing 
>energy terms-- a term due to the magnetic energy and a term due to the 
>electric energy.  The magnetic energy is a function of the inverse cube 
>of the radius.  By pairing with a second electron, the radius is 
>increased which decreases the electric energy which is a function of the 
>inverse square of the radius.  Thus, as shown by Eq. (7.55), the binding 
>energy increases to a maximum of about 72 eV for H-(1/16) and decreases 
>thereafter to 0.65 eV for H-(1/24).  H-(1/25) can not be formed since its 
>binding energy is negative.
>
>Randell L. Mills MD
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 05:23:26 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Blocks & Goat Bladder Battery-Powered Levitation
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 06:20:55 -0700
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Here you go, Knuke:

Most of the soft limestone blocks used in the Pyramid construction weighed
~ 5,000 pounds, which at ~ 155 pounds per cubic foot were about a cubic meter
(~ 35.28 ft^3) in volume. So at about a meter wide and 1/2 meter thick they would
have an area of ~ 2.0 square meters.

Since the theorized antigravity levitation force is; n * I * Area * 30  (newtons):

5,000 lbs = 22,242 newtons = 30 * 2.0 Meter^2 * 38 amperes * 10 turns
of wire wound around a block would  make it weightless.

The  "wire" could've been a copper ribbon.

Thus with a "slave" on each corner to guide it, and Ahib on top to connect
the wire to the Goat Bladder Battery......   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 06:36:35 2000
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:35:50 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: On-line technical dictionary
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Here is a good on-line technical dictionary:

http://www.harcourt.com/dictionary/

Academic Press Dictionary of Science and Technology

"Harcourt and Academic Press are proud to bring the largest scientific 
dictionary ever compiled in the English language to the Web. Search from 
over 130,000 terms defined in 130 fields of science below."

I do not understand how publishers can afford to give away information like 
this, but I am glad they do!

- Jed

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: On-line technical dictionary
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Jed wrote:
>Here is a good on-line technical dictionary:
>
>http://www.harcourt.com/dictionary/
>
>Academic Press Dictionary of Science and Technology

Thank you, Thank you Thank you.

I've been looking for this, off and on, for years.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 09:34:09 2000
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Message-ID: <39CA3626.D67BE0E1 austininstruments.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:24:06 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Here is a good on-line technical dictionary:
> 
> http://www.harcourt.com/dictionary/
> 
> Academic Press Dictionary of Science and Technology
> 
> "Harcourt and Academic Press are proud to bring the largest scientific
> dictionary ever compiled in the English language to the Web. Search from
> over 130,000 terms defined in 130 fields of science below."
> 
> I do not understand how publishers can afford to give away information like
> this, but I am glad they do!
> 
> - Jed


---

WOW!

Thanks very much.

---

John Fields

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Subject: Krakowski ARIES abstract in fancy format
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<html>
<font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica">I have been condensing some of my paper
files to disk with a scanner and a program called &quot;PaperPort.&quot;
It also does an excellent job of OCR'ing files in conjunction with
&quot;TextBridge,&quot; from the same company. I have discovered some
interesting things tucked away in the files, including a pristine copy of
the ARIES study from the principal author, Krakowski. I do not see any
copyright on it. People who want to know the engineering limitations of
proposed Tokamak designs should read this. I am not going to shrink this
one, because it has too many pages, but here is the Abstract, as output
by the OCR program with just a few manual&nbsp; corrections from=20
me.<br>
<br>
I am posting this with the Eudora version 5, which may or may not
preserve the formatting and things like the Greek letter Beta
(confinement efficiency). I apologize if this formatting screws up
anyone's e-mail appearance. Let me know if it does. Sooner or later I
suppose we should all go to an e-mail exchange standard that allows
underlining, italics, Greek letters and so on. I suppose HTML is the best
choice, although I get better results with RTF. The text below this line
is RTF output from the TextBridge OCR program, which I cut and pasted
into this message. Okay, here goes . . . <br>
<br>
- Jed<br>
<br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
<br>
</font><div align=3D"center">
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D5><b>LESSONS </b>LEARNED <b>FRO=
M
</b>THE <b>TOKAMAK ADVANCED<br>
REACTOR INNOVATION AND EVALUATION STUDY (ARIES) t<br>
<br>
</b></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>R. A. Krakowski, C=
.
G. Bathke, R. L. Miller, and K. A. Werley<br>
<br>
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D5><b>Abstract<br>
<br>
</b></font></div>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>Lessons from the four-year
ARIES (Advanced Reactor Innovation and Evaluation Study) investigation of
four commercial magnetic-fusion-energy (MFE) power-plant embodiments of
the tokamak are summarized. These lessons are derived from the physics;
engineering and technology; economics; and environmental, safety, and
health (ES&amp;H) characteristics of these conceptual tokamak power-plant
designs. This summary of ARIES lessons is intended to provide a general
indicator of the requirements of economically and environmentally
attractive fusion power. The integration of fundamental tokamak physics
with conceptual engineering models through a cost-based systems
methodology has been especially thorough in ARIES. The resulting
quantitative tradeoffs among tokamak plasma physics, plasma engineering,
and a wide range of supporting reactor engineering disciplines, and the
enhanced interdisciplinary understanding of the impact of constraints
leading to optimal tokamak reactors are major contributions of the ARIES
Project. A general conclusion drawn from this extensive investigation of
the commercial potential of tokamak power plants is the need for
combined, symbiotic advances in both physics and engineering before
economic competitiveness with developing advanced energy sources can be
projected. Comparable advances for materials are also needed for the
exploitation of ES&amp;H advantages related to passive safety and reduced
radioactive-waste burden. Although the above-mentioned integration of
physics, engineering, economics, and ES&amp;H components is an ongoing
process limited by present understanding, and although many of the ARIES
assumptions remain to be verified experimentally, a preference has
emerged for following the path of second-stability-regime tokamak physics
towards an optimal </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"><i>(i.e.,
</i></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>cost-competitive,
operationally tractable, ES&amp;H-acceptable) commercial end-product. The
feasibility of this optimal tokamak reactor cannot be assessed, however,
until experimental results confirming the necessary physics, engineering,
and materials underpinning the ARIES designs become available. Research
and Development (R&amp;D) along several independent lines, therefore,
would be prudent to assure the necessary advances needed for an
economically competitive system with which to harness the nearly
unlimited supply of nuclear-fusion fuel in a safe and environmentally
benign configuration. While a moderate extrapolation from the existing
tokamak data base using presently (or easily) qualified engineering
materials will not attain this goal, ARIES has provided a clear
indication of the potential reactor merits of the second-stability-regime
tokamak plasma with </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"><i>both
</i></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>high confinement
efficiency </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"><i>(=DF)
</i></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>and high overall
current-drive efficiency
</font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"><i>(i.e.,
</i></font><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times" size=3D4>both low total
plasma current and high bootstrap-current fraction); an important related
condition is the need for a plasma that sheds a majority of the heating
energy through radiation channels so that heat loads on plasma-facing
components can be more equally distributed for the more-compact,
high-engineering-gain reactor that would result.<br>
<br>
<br>
t Work supported by US DOE, Office of Fusion Energy.<br>
<br>
</font></div>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 13:50:16 2000
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Subject: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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Many on vortex-L actively attack Mr. Dennard, or at least lodge complaints
about him with the moderator.  Why?  Mr. Dennard speculates about this,
but I think he's missing some important information. 

Put briefly, Mr. Dennard was unknowingly breaking most of the (unwritten) 
rules of Scientific Integrity.

How is Scientific Integrity different than the normal sort?  One main
difference is this:

   A person with scientific integrity is excruciatingly aware that
   human beings constantly make mistakes and are always fooling
   themselves, or even LYING to themselves, and also suspects that he or
   she is the biggest dishonest fool of them all.

As a result, good scientists are somewhat distrustful of supporters and
affirmation, and will flee quickly from "yes men."  They don't want to
hear how wonderful their work is, instead they want to see their own
errors.  And knowing how easily they are fooled, they seek out skeptics. 
Insightful criticism is their most precious resource.

Scientific Integrity is a matter of totally brutal honesty and especially
brutal SELF-honesty.  Good scientists advertise flaws.  They don't become
defensive when others find faults.  When others attack, they don't feel
wounded.  Instead they HELP their attackers in any way possible.  And when
others offer powerful criticism, people of scientific integrity don't get
angry, instead they are greatful.  They take this criticism very seriously
and would never even think of making instant excuses or trying to divert
discussion away from the problems that the critics expose.

Mr. Dennard's postings are filled with all sorts of mild dishonesties and
tiny diversionary tactics, and he responds to criticism by ignoring it and
becoming angry.  This would be perfectly acceptable in most situations
(...in politics or marketing his behavior would be a sign of high ethical
standards!)  But in science his behavior is unacceptable.  Scientific
integrity sets a standard for honesty which is far beyond anything in
normal human society.  Scientists who behave like normal humans appear
corrupt and incompetent.  And from a normal human perspective, people with
scientific integrity are extremely negative; they're always putting
themselves down and behaving absolutely ruthless in shining the spotlight
on any flaws in new ideas. 

I'm convinced that the problems between Mr. Dennard and vortex-L are based
on wrong assumptions and miscommunication.  We thought he was in
scientist-mode, and therefore was naturally looking for help in bashing
his own ideas.  And he thought we were normal humans who want to act
positively and be supportive of each other.  Both sides of the controversy
got the opposite of what they wanted, and complained bitterly! 

Richard Feynman describes scientific integrity in his talk "Cargo Cult
Science." See the exerpt below. 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html

But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult
science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying
science in school--we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope
that you'll catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation.  It
is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. 
It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought
that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over
backwards.  For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report
everything that you think might make it invalid -- not only what you think
is right about it, but other causes that could possibly explain your
results;  and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other
experiment, and how they worked -- to make sure the other fellow can tell
they have been eliminated.

Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if
you know them.  You must do the best you can --if you know anything at all
wrong, or possibly wrong-- to explain it. If you make a theory, for
example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all
the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. 
There is also a more subtle problem. When you have put a lot of ideas
together to make an elaborate theory, you want to make sure, when
explaining what it fits, that those things it fits are not just the things
that gave you the idea for the theory; but that the finished theory makes
something else come out right, in addition. 

In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to
judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads
to judgement in one particular direction or another. 

The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with
advertising. Last night I heard that Wesson oil doesn't soak through food.
Well, that's true. It's not dishonest; but the thing I'm talking about is
not just a matter of not being dishonest; it's a matter of scientific
integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that
advertising statement is that NO oils soak through food, if operated at a
certain temperature.  If operated at another temperature, they ALL
will-- including Wesson oil.  So it's the implication which has been
conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have
to deal with.

We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other
experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were
wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with
your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and
excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you
haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type
of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a
large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science. 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 14:30:12 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <b9.6f99ad4.26fbd64b aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:23:23 EDT
Subject: I'm to speak at ANS on cold fusion
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I'll be speaking along with Martin Fleishmann, McKurbee, Miley, and others.  
I am quite proud of the this.  My lecture will be 'The Constants of the 
Motion'.  This lecture will be a repeat of the lecture I gave at The Univ. of 
Illinois last September.  The bottom line is:  "The constants of the motion 
tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a 
frequency of one-megahertz meter".  I hope to help push the technology of low 
level nuclear reactions and gravitational control into commercialization.

Frank Znidarsic

About the conference.  


Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Session
Isotopes and Radiation Division
2000 ANS/ENS International Meeting

November 12-16, 2000
Marriott Wardman Park Hotel
Washington, DC


Session dates: Wednesday, November 15th - p.m.
        Thursday, November 16th - a.m. and p.m.
        Panel Session follows Thursday p.m. session

WEDNESDAY P.M.

B. Bass and W. S. Gleeson “Theoretical & Experimental Results Regarding 
LENR/CF”

J. Dufour, D. Murat, X. Dufour, and J. Foos “Experimental Observation of 
Nuclear Reactions in Palladium and Uranium. The Hydrex Hypothesis to Explain 
CF and LENR Experiments”

H. Hora and J. Kelly, “Low Energy Nuclear Reactions of Protons in Host Metals 
at Picometer Distance”

H. Fox and S.X. Jin “New Energy Development”

T. Matsumoto, “Generation of Carbon Tubes and Films from Lead and Cadmium 
Wires during Underwater Spark Discharges”

P. Hagelstein, “Theory for Anomalies in Metal Deuterides”

V. Violante, G. H. Miley, P. Tripodi, D. Di Gioacchino, and C. Sibilia, 
“Recent Results from Collaborative Research at ENEA-Frascati on Reaction 
Phenomena in Solids”

S. Chubb and T. Chubb, “Theoretical Framework for Anomalous Heat without High 
Energy Particles from Deuteron Fusion in Deuterium-Transition Metal Systems”

THURSDAY A.M.

X.Z. Li, J. Tian, and M. Y. Mei, “Resonant Tunneling in Low Energy Nuclear 
Reaction”

J. Kenny and R. Schultz, “Hyper Gentle Fusion and Isotope Production”

M. McKubre, F. Tanzella, and P. Tripodi, “Evidence of d-d Fusion Products in 
Experiments Conducted with Palladium at Near Ambient Temperatures”

R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, Anomalous Power Generation Produced by Stirring 
Water Solutions”

K.P. Sinha and P. Hagelstein, “Electron Screening in Metal Deuterides”

A. Takahashi,  M. Ohta, and T. Mizuno, “Radiation-Less Fission Products by 
Selective Channel Low-Energy Photo-Fission for A>100 Elements”

M. Miles, M. A. Imam, and M. Fleischmann “Excess Heat and Helium Production 
in the Palladium-Boron System”

THURSDAY P.M.

M. Swartz, “Engineering to Control Noise, Loading, and Optimal Operating 
Points”

J. Fisher, “Polyneutron Chain Reactions”

T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, T. Akimoto, and A. Takahashi, “Heat and Products 
Induced by Plasma Electrolysis”

B. Cain, “Carbonate Precipitates during Heat Evolution in FP-Type Cells”

G. Goddard, J. Dash, and S. Frantz,  “Characterization of Uranium 
Co-Deposited with Hydrogen on Nickel Cathodes”

G. Miley, G. Selvaggi, A. Tate, and Carlos Castaño, “Advances in Thin-Film 
Proton-Reaction Cell Experiments”

F. Znidarsic, “The Constants of the Motion”














From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 15:08:03 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: HSG: Re: The meaning of n/weapons
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:01:39 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:52:20
+1100:

>On Wed, 20 Sep 00 08:48:52 -0400, "Dr. Randell L. Mills"
><blp41 earthlink.net> wrote:
>It seems my understanding of Hydrino hydride was not as good as I thought it
>was :(.
>The following response from Dr. Mills on the hydrino study group list shows
>that there is a minimum level for HH ions.
>This doesn't necessarily throw a spanner in the works, where my previous
>posts on "Coulomb slide" are concerned, but it does place limits.
>Note however that while this does reveal a limit to the size of the HH, that
>doesn't imply such a limit on the size of hydrinos per se.
>[snip]

My previous message may, as a consequence of my poor formatting, give the
impression that the previous paragraph belongs to Dr. Mills. That is of
course not so.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf
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BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf
      BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf  =20



      BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf (1884--1949), German chemist and =
Nobel laureate, born in Goldschmieden (now part of Poland), and educated =
at the University of Breslau (now Wroc=D3 aw, Poland) and the University =
of Leipzig. He did early research in high-pressure chemistry and =
developed leakproof, high-pressure apparatus before establishing his own =
laboratory in Hannover. There he investigated the effects of high =
pressure and high temperature on wood and peat in the formation of coal =
and the transformation of heavy oils and oil residues into lighter oils. =
He discovered that by adding hydrogen to petroleum to replace hydrogen =
lost during refining, he could increase the yield of gasoline. He was =
also able to produce a liquid hydrocarbon by forcing hydrogen into =
lignite (a form of coal). Bergius later did research on the hydrolysis =
of cellulose, through which he was able to produce sugar. These =
processes were the beginnings of the coal hydrogenation and cellulose =
conversion industries that created resources for Germany during World =
War II. Bergius shared the 1931 Nobel Prize in chemistry with the German =
chemist Karl Bosch, for their development of chemical high-pressure =
methods.=20
        =20

=20

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    <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"95%"><FONT color=3Dwhite face=3D"Arial, =
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      size=3D+1><B>BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf </B></FONT></TD>
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      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica"><FONT color=3D#0066ff=20
      face=3D"Arial, Helvetica"><B>BERGIUS, Friedrich Karl Rudolf=20
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in=20
      Goldschmieden (now part of Poland), and educated at the University =
of=20
      Breslau (now Wroc=D3 aw, Poland) and the University of Leipzig. He =
did early=20
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high-pressure=20
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There he=20
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wood and=20
      peat in the formation of coal and the transformation of heavy oils =
and oil=20
      residues into lighter oils. He discovered that by adding hydrogen =
to=20
      petroleum to replace hydrogen lost during refining, he could =
increase the=20
      yield of gasoline. He was also able to produce a liquid =
hydrocarbon by=20
      forcing hydrogen into lignite (a form of coal). Bergius later did =
research=20
      on the hydrolysis of cellulose, through which he was able to =
produce=20
      sugar. These processes were the beginnings of the coal =
hydrogenation and=20
      cellulose conversion industries that created resources for Germany =
during=20
      World War II. Bergius shared the 1931 Nobel Prize in chemistry =
with the=20
      German chemist Karl Bosch, for their development of chemical =
high-pressure=20
      methods. </FONT><BR>&nbsp;=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 18:02:02 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <IronEagle ainop.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogenation of Biomass to Gasoline Etc.
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:59:39 -0700
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Hydrogenation of the Cellulose and Lignin in biomass would be a good way
to store up Hydrogen as Gasoline and other "Value Added" Hydrocarbons.

Adding a water molecule to Cellulose (C6H10O5) makes Glucose (C6H12O6)
which is routinely Hydrogenated to Sorbitol (C6H14O6) using a suspended
Nickel catalyst. The catalyst is separated with magnets.

OTOH, like Bergius' work,  the destructive hydrogenation should yield Hexane
(C6H14) and other good stuff.

For instance Glucose: 

C6H12O6 (180 lbs) + 7 H2  (14 lbs) --->  C6H14 (86 lbs) + 6 H2O (108 lbs)

A good electrolysis cell (Solar or Wind Powered) requires  ~ 24 kw-hr per
pound of Hydrogen. 

Regards,    Frederick


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Subject: Process for producing hydrocarbon-containing liquids from biomass (US4670613)
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Shell Oil Co Patent.    That figures.  :-)

 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US04670613__

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 18:42:19 2000
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These aren't meant to make Brown's Gas

 http://www.electrolyser.com/website/app14.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 19:25:13 2000
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:24:07 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Talking to Dr. Kaku
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Michael Johnson wrote

>>
>>Hi David,
>>    I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have 
>>spoken with him
>>on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of 
>>this post.If
>>indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to be the
>>first to congratulate you.
>>MJ
>>

I'm impressed Michael I've attempted on several occasions to get the 
good doctor to comment on the theoretical underpinnings and potential 
ramifications of the claims made by fringe scientists and have been 
ignored

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 21 19:27:40 2000
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:24:43 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The outsider phenomena
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>
>
>The "outsider" phenomenon is common in technology and commerce. I do not
>know as much about the history of science, but I suspect the same pattern
>applies.
>
>- Jed


Brilliant Jed I noticed the same thing. People on the outside of a 
field haave the ability to think outside the box.

Lynn continues to point out that no one other than mathematicians has 
contributed to the development of mathematics. Da! mathematics is a 
seperate language, spoken by people who have spent years studying it.


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>Scott Little wrote:
>join me in NEVER responding to ANY of Dennard's future posts.
>
>You will find that easier to do if you add his name to your automatic
>kill-file list. You will never see his posts -- only the occassional
>replies to them made by other people.
>
>- Jed

While I am sick of David's stupid references to us as drunks, I also 
feel that a little Dennard is like a little hot pepper, enjoyable. If 
you just autodeleat his posts the only references you will see are 
when other people reply to his posts

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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:21:19 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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At 1:49 PM 9/21/0, William Beaty wrote:
[snip]
>I'm convinced that the problems between Mr. Dennard and vortex-L are based
>on wrong assumptions and miscommunication.  We thought he was in
>scientist-mode, and therefore was naturally looking for help in bashing
>his own ideas.  And he thought we were normal humans who want to act
>positively and be supportive of each other.  Both sides of the controversy
>got the opposite of what they wanted, and complained bitterly!


I can only say that from my perspective there was not merely a
miscommunication or lack of following scientific norms, but rather a lack
of content that was most irritating.  It was like someone in a theater
monotonously banging the same gong over and over.  In two years there was
no music to inspire.  The same old words were used repeatedly, as if
parroted, without much or any new information flowing.  If Fred Sparber,
for example, were to take on many irritating personality foibles, I would
still be glad to read his posts, because, even if some might be irritating,
wrong, or whacko, or I happened to disagree with them, I feel sure they
would still be full of creative and insightful CONTENT.  I think I and many
others would gladly have suffered personality problems if periodic content
of interest had been provided, or there had been a genuine and reasonable
call for help.  Indeed, many of us suffered quietly for almost two years as
it was.  That seems fair enough to me, even though I know some here suffer
my own frequent speculation. Yes, I have a "log in my own eye!"

You are certainly right to a degree.  Dennard portrayed a poorly defined
concept ostensibly formed in a dream, but then expected, no he demanded, at
threat of holding the list hostage, that he be provided all formulation,
quantitative analysis, detailed design, and experimentation for the
concept.  He demanded data, but did not or could not cooperate sufficiently
with those willing to give his concept a try to make any progess here in
two years.  He further overtly refused to obtain further education, either
by self study or by going to school.  He refused to experiment himself, but
that might be understandable, depending on the nature of his disability and
circumstance.  If he had asked for books or help learning math or physics,
so that he could learn to quantify and communicate his ideas, I think he
would have found a very different and large level of support here.  If he
had spent the same level of effort learning math and physics the last two
years that he put into droning repetitively on, he might have achieved
something that made his extensive use of bandwidth worthwhile.  Even if he
was right, as far as he took the whirlpool concept, there was so little
content to his posts as to make them less than useful.  His work, as
portrayed here, did not progress scientifically even the amount that could
be expected from a bright high school student.

I don't think there was so much a "controversy" over content as much as
over peripheral issues, because there was too little scientific content to
be meaningful, thus the "controversy" necessarily focused on the very
negative personality oriented side issues.  What an irritating waste of
badwidth, and more so given that he has his "own list."   Additionally
irritating is that what controversy there was seemed to be designed to haul
in the gullible to his list.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> Many on vortex-L actively attack Mr. Dennard, or at least lodge complaints
> about him with the moderator.  Why?  Mr. Dennard speculates about this,
> but I think he's missing some important information.
> 
> Put briefly, Mr. Dennard was unknowingly breaking most of the (unwritten)
> rules of Scientific Integrity.
> 
[snip some]

> I'm convinced that the problems between Mr. Dennard and vortex-L are based
> on wrong assumptions and miscommunication.  We thought he was in
> scientist-mode, and therefore was naturally looking for help in bashing
> his own ideas.  And he thought we were normal humans who want to act
> positively and be supportive of each other.  Both sides of the controversy
> got the opposite of what they wanted, and complained bitterly!

No, dont go so sophisticated, Mr. Dennard had intervened and intercepted nearly every postings and threads, recently, not belonging to its stuff, diverting and filling them with garbage. Examples are on my postings. Imagine this take place in a conference
, and a listener speak repeatedly from his row, trying trashing the context of speakers, with totally unrelated items. Could the conference keep going on?

[rewind some]

> How is Scientific Integrity different than the normal sort?  One main
> difference is this:
> 
>    A person with scientific integrity is excruciatingly aware that
>    human beings constantly make mistakes and are always fooling
>    themselves, or even LYING to themselves, and also suspects that he or
>    she is the biggest dishonest fool of them all.
> 

Yes, scientific integrity issues and human behavior can explain Mr. Dennard doing, 
and may help to see his errors hopefully. Also his behavior is an extreme example
having pedagogical value, about the inventor syndrome, and other ill behaviors.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 06:36:38 2000
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I went through his radio show email. Sometimes he answers and sometimes not. I am
sure he gets quite a bit of mail due to his public career(s)
(scientist/broadcaster). He isn't "unapproachable" and I find that many people
aren't if you take the time to hunt them up and address them rationally.
Ultimately though the thing is they are just like anyone else, if what you want to
talk about interests them they are more likely to respond.
MJ

thomas malloy wrote:

> Michael Johnson wrote
>
> >>
> >>Hi David,
> >>    I didn't know you knew Dr. Kaku. Coincidentally enough I have
> >>spoken with him
> >>on occasion by email. I took the liberty of emailing him a copy of
> >>this post.If
> >>indeed he agrees that he is backing your theories now I would like to be the
> >>first to congratulate you.
> >>MJ
> >>
>
> I'm impressed Michael I've attempted on several occasions to get the
> good doctor to comment on the theoretical underpinnings and potential
> ramifications of the claims made by fringe scientists and have been
> ignored

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 07:18:18 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RF Pendulum
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Ahoy,

I thought that this might be of interest to Kyle M. mainly, but JLN Labs has
updated their website as of today, and it includes a new bunch of stuff on
the Stavros RF Pendulum.  It is one of the weirder looking gizmos, I must
say. ;)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/stvrfpnd4.htm

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 09:13:05 2000
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Subject: PowerSupply: was Goat Bladder Battery-Powered Levitation
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Fred writes:
>Here you go, Knuke:
>
>Most of the soft limestone blocks used in the Pyramid construction weighed
>~ 5,000 pounds, which at ~ 155 pounds per cubic foot were about a cubic meter
>(~ 35.28 ft^3) in volume. So at about a meter wide and 1/2 meter thick they
would
>have an area of ~ 2.0 square meters.
>
>Since the theorized antigravity levitation force is; n * I * Area * 30
(newtons):
>
>5,000 lbs = 22,242 newtons = 30 * 2.0 Meter^2 * 38 amperes * 10 turns
>of wire wound around a block would  make it weightless.
>
>The  "wire" could've been a copper ribbon.
>
>Thus with a "slave" on each corner to guide it, and Ahib on top to connect
>the wire to the Goat Bladder Battery......   :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

For those of you that actually plowed through the Roth papers, you may have
seen or noticed that the power of the plasma balls that can be generated by
two panels mounted in close proximity to one another can be quite high.  I
have been puzzling over this for about a year now, trying to work out in my
mind some of the engineering details that could make this into a small,
lightweight power generator.

Here is a brief excerpt of what I was thinking back then.

**********************
>[Fred Epps]Actually the nice thing about using parallel electrodes as the
Roth patent
>says is that the glow discharge can then act as an electron accelerator
>without frying the plates with heavy ions. I'm not sure why you would want
>to make things more complicated than that.

[Knuke]What I have in mind is not really all that more complicated.  It's
more of a
logical progression that may lend itself to a better thrusting engine,
something that could also be retrofitted to existing aircraft, and if it
works, maybe even give us electrostatic fusion.  We'll see, but here goes
with the explanation.

When you look at what JL Naudin has done, you can see that the air is
propelled along in a perpendicular path to the winding direction of the
outer most set of wires by the static discharge in air of the capacitated
charge.  The underlying set of wires sets up an undulating of the discharge
itself so that it alternates between discharging outwardly and more
inwardly.  This sets up a vortex motion in the air which moves the air in a
given direction as illustrated below.  While JL Naudin's panel is
horizontal, I'm drawing it vertically because of the ascii limitations.
This first drawing is just to identify the parts of construction.

| (
|  O
|    )
|  O
| ( <-----Capacitated discharge location
|  O
|    )
|  O <---Outer set of wire
| (
^ 
|---------Underlying set of wire

Now, the vortex motion is created by undulating or alternating capacitated
charge discharges, a vortex is created, and is illustrated by the number 9.
This sets up an airflow over the panel that is *unbound* on one side.  This
is illustrated below, and marked.

| ( 9 ^
|  O ^
|    ) ^
|  O ^
| ( 9 ^ ---Airflow
|  O ^
|    ) ^
|  O ^
| ( 9 ^

This is well shown by the animations and the smoke wire photos on Jean
Louis's page, and as you'll notice in the photo, the smoke is sucked in
toward the panel and propelled along.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/s_gdpthr1.htm

The reported airspeed is 400m/sec by
Roth, but he doesn't mention how much air is actually moving that fast.
That is because the boundary layers are laminar and slipstreaming over the
vortices, so that the farther from the panel you get, the slower the speed
of the air.  The vortices are acting like very low efficiency paddles in
water, rather than getting any kind of positive traction.  This is fine, and
obviously well enough to propel a fairly large craft with it's own power
supply aboard, a radio transmitter and even a camera with a transmitter.
Not too bad for the power to weight ratio.  However, the actual speed of the
craft is limited by this slipstreaming effect, and the actual thickness of
the air that is being accelerated to 400m/sec may only be a few nanometers.

My idea would be to put two panels next to each other in the hopes that the
vortices of each would combine, forming a more "solid" cylindrical shaped
air structure that would be larger, and give more thrust.  Below is what I'm
thinking it might look like, and I include two different approaches.  One
where the discharges are synced together a), the other when they are synced
in opposition b).  The combined vortices are designated by an  .

| (   (    |
|  O    O |
|    )   ) |
|  O    O |
| (   (    |
|  O    O |
|    )   ) |
|  O    O |
| (   (    |

     a)

| (   ) |
|  O O |
|    ) (   |
|  O O |
| (   ) |
|  O O |
|    ) (   |
|  O O |
| (   ) |

    b)

I'm not sure if either of these configurations would work, or if they did,
which would be the strongest, but it wouldn't take much to try it and find
out.  I think that a locking of the panels like this would provide a more
positive displacement of air or gas.  There is also another possible
advantage.  By combining the vortices from both panels into one, the
resulting vortex would be slipstreaming internally or towards the center of
the vortex, and I think that more energy would be maintained within the
vortex itself.  If the cylinder of air or gas were to hit or impact with the
blade of a turbine, for example, it would not only impart the force of the
propulsion from the panels, it would also impart the internally stored force
as well, as the vortex disintegrated onto the turbine blade.  This could be
a significant amount of energy.  This leads to configuration 3. [end of excerpt]
*********************

As it turns out, Roth as already done this dual panel arrangement, and it
does work to produce plasma balls.  Roth, as it also turns out, is a ball
lightning expert, and has written a book on the subject, as well as numerous
papers on the subject.  Some of the papers haven't been published according
to Fred Epps.  Here is a brief quote from Fred Epps regarding the energy
estimates contained in the plasma balls.

*********************
[Epps]Yes, I've found a paper by Roth of GDP fame where he reprints a chart
based
on 13 estimates of energy density of specific ball lightning cases. These
estimates range from 10^-3 to 10^5 J/cm^3-- with 10 observations within the
range of possible plasma energy storage in fully dissociated gasses, and 3
observations above that range.
In other words, the energy density of  some BL cannot be explained by
plasma physics as it is presently known. [end of excerpt]
**********************

One of the first problems that I could see was that the plasma ball would be
more or less contained within the area of the two panels, and that any
attempts to collect that energy would be difficult to accomplish without
possibly damaging the panels.  I thought perhaps that maybe the cohered
electrons could be drained off *before* going into the plasma state by
running a collector wire between the two panels, but this really didn't
appeal to me after some thought.  The power levels generated, I reckoned,
would be too low to make it worth the effort.  I also thought about possibly
trying to attract the plasma ball to a collector plate by running some low
current AC through the plate, as plasma balls seem to be attracted to AC
current flow.  This idea suffered from the fact that once the ball dumped
it's energy into the collector plate, the low current AC circuitry would
probably get fried by the power pulse.  Below are possible solutions to both
the problems of getting the plasma ball out of the area of the panel, and
what to do with the power pulse in an acceptable manner.

While looking at some of these other "anti-grav" approaches however, I think
I may have something that might work with the dual parallel Roth plasma
panels after the plasma ball has been formed.  If you look at Bill Beaty's
site at:

http://www.amasci.com/maglev/magroll.html

You will see a mini-Maglev that is mechanically driven, and I think that
properly oriented to the parallel Roth panel arrangement, it would propel
the plasma balls outside of confines of the panels into the direction of a
collector plate.   The Maglev device that Bill built will elevate a
Neodymium magnet about 3" into the air at 5000 RPM.  The panels that I've
drawn in the examples above have are vertically oriented with their
outermost wires running parallel to the ground.   Viewed from the side they
would look like this:

______________
|______________|   ^
|______________|   ^ 
|______________|   ^  <- direction of airflow
|______________|   ^
|______________|   ^

If you mounted the panels horizontally, and put a Maglev device like Bill
has made under it, you might be able to get the plasma balls to exit the
area of the panels, and go into a collector plate, like so:

______________   - collector plate
   @ @ @ @ @   - levitated plasma balls
______________
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   - GPD panels
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|

>>>>>>>>>>>>    - direction of airflow
______________
|                            |  - Maglev Device
|______________|


There are unknown considerations of course, like the Maglev device that Bill
made takes Neodymium to work because it has the necessary magnetic strength
to lift it's own weight, and plasma balls have their magnet fields
internally contained, and don't exhibit a lot of magnetic field strength
externally.  However, since the weight of the plasma ball is so low, I think
the Mechanical Maglev would still work to push the ball out of the confines
of the of the dual panel and into the collector plates.  If anyone in the
Seattle area is experimenting with these dual plasma panels, it wouldn't
take much to mount one temporarily over Bill's Maglev, and see if the plasma
balls popped up out of the panel area into free air.  If the plasma balls
exit the panels without any external stimulus of course, then the Maglev
device is not even necessary.

The other problem had to do with the power surge that would be generated in
the collector plate once the plasma ball came into contact with it.  If a
liquid ring circuit was built like I described the other day, as a
MagnetoHydrodynamic Kinetic Energy Capacitor/ Electrical Transformer, then
the power surge could be used to move a conducting fluid around the inside
of dialectric ring at high voltages on the primary, and the power could be
tapped at low voltages on the secondary.  It would take a periodic pinging
of the collector plate with plasma balls to keep the conducting liquid
moving within the dialectric ring.  With plasma balls containing 10000 W/s
of energy, and assuming 100% efficiency for the collection/transformation of
energy, you would need to ping the plate with one cm^3 sized plasma ball,
once every other second to generate 5kW per hour continuously.  If you look
at how little energy it takes to generate those plasma balls (around 40Wper
hour), this has to be a good way of generating power, right?

All this could have been done nearly 7000 years ago using malleable metal
conducting ribbons, dialectric saps, animal intestines or bladders, and very
smelly electrolytes. ;)

All comments are appreciated. 

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 13:00:22 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: I'm to speak at ANS on cold fusion
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Congratulations, Frank. The ANS cold fusion sessions are growing longer and 
more impressive. I hope they attract 'outsiders' (people who are not 
already involved in CF).

- Jed

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>Ahoy,
>
>I thought that this might be of interest to Kyle M. mainly, but JLN Labs has
>updated their website as of today, and it includes a new bunch of stuff on
>the Stavros RF Pendulum.  It is one of the weirder looking gizmos, I must
>say. ;)
>
>http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/stvrfpnd4.htm
>
>Knuke

***{Hi Knuke. Thanks for reminding me to look at the Naudin website. I have
been remiss lately, and had missed the update. Very interesting stuff,
though the presentation was a bit unclear. To be sure that my
interpretation is correct, I'm going to sum up what I gleaned from the
presentation, and let you or others point out any flaws.

First, I assume Naudin is treating this as a classical pendulum. Thus if T
is the period, L is the length, and g is the acceleration of gravity, we
have:

T = 2�[sqrt(L/g)]. [For the derivation, see any elementary physics textbook.]

Second, I assume that Naudin is setting his weird-shaped pendulum into
motion, measuring the period by means of laser beam traversals, and
comparing two states: (1) the state when the pendulum wires are being
pulsed with electricity at an RF rate of 83.1 MHz, and (2) the state when
they are *not* being pulsed.

When the pendulum is being pulsed, the measured period is significantly
longer than when it is not being pulsed. According to what I read on the
website, when RF power is not being applied, the period, T1, is equal to
2.16 sec, whereas with RF power the period, T2, is equal to 2.288 sec. L,
the length of the pendulum, is given as 1.155 meters. Thus for the unpulsed
case we have g =L[(2�/T1)^2] = 1.155[(2�/2.16)^2] = 9.773 m/sec^2. For the
pulsed case, on the other hand, we have g =L[(2�/T1)^2] =
1.155[(2�/2.288)^2] = 8.71 m/sec^2. Thus the implication would seem to be
that the acceleration due to gravity is *decreased* as a result of the RF
pulses!

However, that is obvious nonsense, and so there appear to be only two
realistic possibilities: either the period of the pendulum was measured in
error, or else the length of the pendulum increases, when the RF pulsing is
turned on. Let's consider those possibilities in turn:

(1) How can the period be measured in error? You obviously measure from the
time that the laser bean is broken to the next time it is broken, and even
if the angle of the swing becomes less and less perpendicular to the laser
beam as time goes by, those measurements ought to remain correct--at least
until the extreme condition is reached where the pendulum is swinging
directly in line with the laser beam. But that condition would obviously
have been noticed, and so this source of error can be discounted.

(2) Note that the pendulum is suspended from twisted-pair wiring, through
which it receives current from the outside. Since oppositely directed
currents in the two wires would cause them to repel one another, giving
rise to a tendency for the spiral to unwind--a tendency that would *not* be
present when the RF pulses were turned off, it follows that the pendulum
should lengthen when the RF is turned on, due to the progressive unwinding
of the wires. Result: the period should get longer, accounting for the
observed effect.

All comments, especially critical comments, are welcome.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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I wrote:

Congratulations, Frank. The ANS cold fusion sessions are growing longer and 
more impressive.


I should have said the CF sessions at mainstream organizations like the 
ANS, ACS and even the APS are improving. To be honest, I do not know if the 
ANS has had a CF session lately.

Maybe Tinsley and the others were right after all, and it is just a matter 
of time before CF is accepted. All we have to do is wait for the old farts 
to die. The trouble is, most people doing CF are even older O.F.'s.

- Jed 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 13:28:04 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
> I can only say that from my perspective there was not merely a
> miscommunication or lack of following scientific norms, but rather a lack
> of content that was most irritating.  It was like someone in a theater
> monotonously banging the same gong over and over.  In two years there was
> no music to inspire.  The same old words were used repeatedly, as if
> parroted.

How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?  I've resisted
giving Vortex any real rules in order to force it to be self-creating and
self-policing.  FREENRG-L is different and says this up front: 

1. Heavy on experimentalism.  Or theory-led experiments.  Or theoretical
   implications of experiments.  This is not a forum for all those
   controversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science.

...but then Mr. Dennard was not really violating this one any more than
others do.  We could make it a Vortex-L crime to be extremely self-
important.  Or to lack conventional education.  Or to be boring.  Or there
could be mandatory fees which eliminate passersby (but any people obsessed
with vortex energy would want to pay them, while people with interesting
things to say might not.) 

Vortex-L could become more exclusionary and elitist; an invitation-only
forum.  Others have tried to start these, but I don't know if they were
successful.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 13:58:22 2000
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Subject: RE: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:53:55 -0700
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Bill Beaty wrote:
> We could make it a Vortex-L crime to be extremely self-
> important.  Or to lack conventional education.  Or to be 
> boring.  Or there
> could be mandatory fees which eliminate passersby (but any 
> people obsessed
> with vortex energy would want to pay them, while people with 
> interesting
> things to say might not.) 

How about making it a crime to score greater than some mutually agreed-upon
cutoff according to this index:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

That way it's quantitative and objective, plus we could start a game that
works just like Fantasy Football (I'm taking Dennard in Round 1 of the
draft, btw). ;)

Just an idea,
-Steve

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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Has everyone seen Nick Reiter's ongoing thread about mass changes in
ultrasonically vibrated powders?  It's very strange, and should be easily
replicated by anyone who has a professional lab balance with milligram
resolution.  

Mr. Reiter gets a reliable effect with aluminum oxide, and recently saw a
larger effect with Bentonite clay.  (1/20th of one percent decrease.) 
He's currently testing a whole list of materials.  The effect does not go
away when the powder is wet or when the test tube is enclosed by foil, so
it can't be caused by charged powder attracting some part of his lab
balance.  The effect does not appear if the sample is only heated but not
agitated with ultrasound, so it doesn't seem to be caused by air
convection around warm containers.  And particular substances give no
effect at all, which suggests that all major artifacts are out of the
running. It's originally from a Townsend Brown article.  See below, and
see the freenrg-L thread starting Sept.3: 
http://www.escribe.com/science/freenrg/index.html?by=Date&n=3

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 07:57:53 -0400
From: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: [FG]: Tribo-gravitic materials

   Gentlemen;

   Allow me to make another stab at stirring up some experimental work here,
aside from the grav-cap.
   Recently, I stumbled across an obscure document on the T. Townsend Brown
website that deals with an entirely novel and admittedly strange antigravity
approach.  What knocked me for a loop was that I had NEVER heard of this one
before amongst the anti-grav / FE / Tesla tech crowd.  But nevertheless, I
believe it could be a historical nugget that could be big in opening up
antigravity!
   Apparently, in 1973 or so, Brown attempted to apply for a patent on a
discovery he had made with certain refractory and rare earth materials.  In
essence, he had discovered that some materials, in a granular or
nano-particle form, will lose some of their gravitational mass when excited
by vibration and interparticle friction.  They become temporarily lighter,
this change in weight going away with a period of about 30 minutes or so.
   The document is called "Method for Producing Gravitationally Anomalous
Materials" and it may be viewed as a .pdf document at:
http://www.soteria.com/brown/info/patents/gravity.pdf

   One wonders why this patent was never awarded.  Perhaps there was not
sufficient theoretical basis for it.  Brown admits in his disclosure that he
has absolutely no idea why it would work.  Perhaps it dragged out long
enough that Brown had passed away before any patent process could be
completed.  I dont know.  In truth, I did get a chuckle over the ironic fact
that the document had the unfortunate luck to be signed and witnessed on
April 1st.  However, I feel it was not any sort of joke for two reasons. 1 -
Brown didn't go in for that sort of crap.  2. - See below.  I've been trying
it.  It seems to work.

   Yes, I have been playing with this, and I am excited to say that I
believe it may very well work!  Last week, I tried some simple tests at the
lab.  I used a 10 ml pyrex test tube with a rubber stopper, and tried
filling it with different powders and grains.  These were then weighed on an
analytical balance with a 1 mg resolution.  Following this, I put the test
tube in a holder that immersed it in an ultrasonic cleaner, for 1/2 hour
period of acoustic agitation.  Immediately upon removal, I would wipe the
test tube dry, and re-weigh it.
   With several of the materials, I did indeed see Brown's effect!!  The
weight loss was not much - on the order of milligrams for initial weights of
between 10 and 30 grams.  However, it reversed itself and came back to the
original weight within 15 minutes.
   I even ran a control test with no acoustic energy, just a hot water bath
to warm the material, as I was afraid that it may have been a thermal
artifact (the ultrasonic energy heats the water and sample).  But no effect.
It really seems genuine.
   Best results I have had so far were with Al2O3 50 micron beads (blasting
media).  For a starting weight of about 21 grams, it lost 5 milligrams, then
gained it back within 15 minutes after post treatment re-weigh.  Alumina
(Al2O3) or boehmite (the hydroxide) were two of the materials Brown
mentioned as having good properties for this effect.

   I am diving into this one.  If this effect is real, then perhaps it
relates to some of the truly wild mysteries such as Tibetan stone block
levitation by music (acoustics) or even Coral Castle.  Anybody care to give
it a try?  The materials needed are easy to come by.  The priciest item
would probably be time on a milligram balance.

   Good luck!

  NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 14:27:11 2000
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Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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At 01:25 PM 9/22/00 -0700, William Beaty wrote:

>How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?

Same way.  Let's not make any more rules or anything...rules are stifling. 
Besides, it doesn't happen that often.  We'll just handle it as it 
arises...if it arises.

BTW, Bill you did a damned good job of it this time.  Congratulations.  I 
particularly liked your recent post on scientific integrity.   Somebody 
needs to post that to the hydrino list that is discussing Mills stuff.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Sep 22, 2000
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Sep 00   Washington, DC

UPDATE ON ROBERT PARK'S CONDITION.  He's out of the woods, and a
good thing too: no more trees for Bob, who was felled three weeks
ago.  He's on the mend and promises to be back, caustic as ever. 

1. HOW YOU GONNA KEEP 'EM DOWN ON THE FARM?  It wasn't too long
ago that research scientists were fighting for jobs.  But eight
years of a hi-tech economic boom have changed all that.  The
national labs have recently seen their annual attrition rates
climb into double digits, as the lure of six-figure salaries and
stock options takes its toll.  Yesterday, the National Academy of
Sciences observed that "the pool of talented people drawn to the
nation's capital is reduced by the growing obstacles to
government service."  The NAS report, "Science and Technology in
the National Interest: The Presidential Appointment Process" -
Who said that NAS titles aren't memorable? - called on the next
president and Congress to begin making S&T appointments early,
accelerate the approval mechanism for all nominees and reduce
portfolio and vocational barriers.  The experience of the
national labs suggests an additional remedy: lots more bucks.   

2. TV GIVES NEW COMMERCIAL MEANING TO MANNED SPACE FLIGHT.  Last
week, NBC, whose International Olympic ratings have tanked,
struck another international deal, sponsoring a televised contest
to send a civilian into space in a Russian rocket.  This week
ABC, CBS and Fox considered upping the ante in the network space
race.  They would film 20 contestants at the Johnson Space Center
vying to spend a week on the International Space Station.  NASA
says it will decide only after receiving a formal proposal.  If
the ISS doesn't make it as a science lab, it might as a TV set.

3. BUDGET BLOCK.  GOP leaders are struggling mightily to send the
remaining 11 appropriations bills to the president before mid
October.  But Senate Democrats and conservative Republicans
unexpectedly derailed the Treasury bill this week, raising the
specter of a Continuing Resolution and a lame-duck session.  

4. HINTS OF HIGGS HALT LEP TURNOFF.  In Geneva, CERN managers
have decided to delay beginning the construction of the Large
Hadron Collider and keep the Large Electron-Positron machine
running for another month.  This will help determine whether the
5 candidate events are evidence of the long-sought Higgs boson. 

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily share by the APS, but they should be.)
This week's WN was written by Michael Lubell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 14:57:42 2000
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This is what I was getting at when I made a similar comment earlier. Jean-Louis
said the amount of current flow was ~0.155A (this is from memory). Not much
current to induce a twisting effect. In addition, using the numbers you posted,
to see the equivalent change in g that Jean-Louis is calculating, assuming g
to be 9.773 m/s^2, the wire length would need to change by about 14cm (12%)
to see that much of a shift in the pendulum's period. Nonetheless, I still stick
by my earlier comment and recommend using a nylon fishing line and operating
the unit with a battery, just to convince everyone.


>However, that is obvious nonsense, and so there appear to be only two
>realistic possibilities: either the period of the pendulum was measured in

>error, or else the length of the pendulum increases, when the RF pulsing is

>turned on. Let's consider those possibilities in turn:
>(2) Note that the pendulum is suspended from twisted-pair wiring, through
>which it receives current from the outside. Since oppositely directed
>currents in the two wires would cause them to repel one another, giving
>rise to a tendency for the spiral to unwind--a tendency that would *not* be

>present when the RF pulses were turned off, it follows that the pendulum
>should lengthen when the RF is turned on, due to the progressive unwinding

>of the wires. Result: the period should get longer, accounting for the
>observed effect.
>
>All comments, especially critical comments, are welcome.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 16:41:45 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Re: I'm to speak at ANS . . . Oops . . .
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In a message dated 9/22/00 4:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  writes:

<< 
 Maybe Tinsley and the others were right after all, and it is just a matter 
 of time before CF is accepted. All we have to do is wait for the old farts 
 to die. The trouble is, most people doing CF are even older O.F.'s.
 
 - Jed 
  >>
Jed,  

There is more to it than that.  According to conventional wisdom fusion 
cannot take place without producing a lot of gamma radiation. No one believes 
in something that appears to be impossible.   I hope my constants of the 
motion theory solves that problem a pushes the technology into the 
mainstream.  I say that the Columbic potential wall is bypassed when the 
range of the strong nuclear force exceeds that of the Columbic force.  There 
are a lot of theories out there.   I think mine is better because it makes 
predictions.  The megahertz meter relationship prediction is one of them.  My 
Constants of the Motion theory predicted that stimulating a 1/3 meter 
superconductive at 3.1 megahertz was the way to produce a gravitational 
anomaly.

3.1 mega hertz x 1/3 meter = one-megahertz-meter

I now know this to be true.

It also predicted that 50nm structures were best for cold fusion.  I stated 
this at my lecture last year at UIUC.  This was before you (Jed) published 
information from Case and Arata that this was so.  Miley knows this and 
that's one of the reasons I am to speak.  Again:

thermal freq x 50nm = one-megahertz-meter

Again a prediction that came true.

My work also links the gravitational control work with the cold fusion work 
providing a  unique perspective of one new process.

I also show were the standard model is wrong.  The standard model states that 
the matter wave function is localized by the Fouier addition of an infinite 
series of component waves.  In my years as an electrical engineer I have seen 
standing waves on Antennas, in sound, and in power lines (these are know as 
VARs).  All of these standing waves are contined by forces.  The standard 
model states matter waves which are not.  This is wrong.  Only traveling 
waves can be represented by the superposition of an infinite series of 
component waves.  I place force into a model of mass energy.  Using this 
adjustment I derived the megahertz-meter relationship.  The analysis is 
simple and based on the conservation laws and the properties of wave motion.  
Jed I've had a reprint of my UIUC lecture sitting around at Infinite Energy 
for one year now.  Can you get it to press?

Frank Znidarsic

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Eye on IP Weekender
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:41:44 -0400
From: "Laura Westlake" <lwestlake cafezine.com>
Reply-To: <lwestlake cafezine.com>
To: "Eye on IP"  <ipfrontline cafezine.com>

Patent Cafe - http://www.patentcafe.com

Eye On IP WEEKENDER 	    Saturday 23SEP00
Volume 04: Number 8

====================================
PATENT CAFE(TM) INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WEBSITE NEWS 

WEEKENDER EDITION of EYE ON IP/IP FRONTLINE

====================================

Settle in and enjoy this week's edition of 
the Weekender, where we profile one of PatentCafe
Magazine's top editors, and one of their selected articles.

============SPOTLIGHT=================


Originally from New Zealand and now residing in
Pasadena with his wife and twin 2-year old boys,
Murray Ansell has made introducing new products
to the US market available and achievable for 
innovative companies from other countries.

Murray founded ThinkUSA in 1996, when the laws of
"first to invent" became available to non-US
residents looking to license in the United States.

Since that time, Murray has expanded ThinkUSA's 
services to include not only providing licensing
arrangement and management, but also assistance with
all types of commercialization including market 
development, and assisting clients with product 
development through ThinkUSA's large network of
contacts.

Murray gained his knowledge of US patent law while
working with a non-profit group in Southern California.
He's a Chartered Accountant in New Zealand, and a
member of the Licensing Executives Society of US and
Canada.

Murray shares his experience and knowledge with you
in this informative article:

http://cafezine.com/index_article.asp?Id=239&deptid=5

======================================

Submit your own article or NewsTip!  See:
http://www.cafezine.com/submit_article.asp?deptid=22

... 'til Monday, enjoy.

Andy Gibbs, President
PatentCafe.com, Inc.

direct replies to editor patentcafe.com
___________________________________________________
To unsubscribe write to editor patentcafe.com

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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David writes:

>This is what I was getting at when I made a similar comment earlier. 
>Jean-Louis
>said the amount of current flow was ~0.155A (this is from memory). Not much
>current to induce a twisting effect. In addition, using the numbers 
>you posted,
>to see the equivalent change in g that Jean-Louis is calculating, assuming g
>to be 9.773 m/s^2, the wire length would need to change by about 14cm (12%)
>to see that much of a shift in the pendulum's period. Nonetheless, I 
>still stick
>by my earlier comment and recommend using a nylon fishing line and operating
>the unit with a battery, just to convince everyone.

Aren't numbers wonderful things! Kudos to those like you (& Horace, 
Frederick, Scott and others) who can do 'em.

It is indeed an interesting experiment.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 19:07:48 2000
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Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:59:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
>> I can only say that from my perspective there was not merely a
>> miscommunication or lack of following scientific norms, but rather a lack
>> of content that was most irritating.  It was like someone in a theater
>> monotonously banging the same gong over and over.  In two years there was
>> no music to inspire.  The same old words were used repeatedly, as if
>> parroted.
>
>How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?I've resisted
>giving Vortex any real rules in order to force it to be self-creating and
>self-policing.  FREENRG-L is different and says this up front:
>
>1. Heavy on experimentalism.  Or theory-led experiments.  Or theoretical
>   implications of experiments.  This is not a forum for all those
>   controversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science.
>
>...but then Mr. Dennard was not really violating this one any more than
>others do.  We could make it a Vortex-L crime to be extremely self-
>important.  Or to lack conventional education.  Or to be boring.  Or there
>could be mandatory fees which eliminate passersby (but any people obsessed
>with vortex energy would want to pay them, while people with interesting
>things to say might not.)

***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff. As for more
intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
head. Instead, the various crybabies in this group should dry their eyes,
grow up, and recognize that they are responsible for dealing with their
problems as individuals. That means the solution to idiots like Dennard is
to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts. What we
*don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***

>
>Vortex-L could become more exclusionary and elitist; an invitation-only
>forum.  Others have tried to start these, but I don't know if they were
>successful.

***{If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This was a tempest in a teapot, and
does not require that you do anything other than return to your slumbers.
:-) --MJ}***

>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 20:08:01 2000
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Sept. 22, 2,000

Vortex,

The current Discover magazine issue is celebrating its twentieth year as
a publication of "Mickey Mouse", so to speak.
In claiming the particular issue as a "special collector's issue", it
has articles of twenty notables in subjects such as Twenty ways the
world could end, species we may lose, young scientists to watch, things
that will not change, and so forth. There is one titled twenty of the
greatest blunders in science in the last twenty years. And Cold Fusion
(as Very Cold Fusion) is listed as one of them. It gives reference to
Park's 'Voodoo Science' covering CF and some words of Marc Abrahams of
'Annals of Improbable Research. 

The pity of the short paragraphs (the whole thing is a pity) are it
includes remarks, one of which is:  "The problem is, no other scientists
have been able to reproduce their results --- and not for lack of
trying". This is is reference to Pons & Fleischmann fusion effect.

So much for scientific, investigative science journalism. Mickey Mouse
rules!

The article was written by Judith Newman --- staff writer?

The title has a small header. 'WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?'

-AK-

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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>David writes:
>
>>This is what I was getting at when I made a similar comment earlier.
>>Jean-Louis
>>said the amount of current flow was ~0.155A (this is from memory). Not much
>>current to induce a twisting effect. In addition, using the numbers
>>you posted,
>>to see the equivalent change in g that Jean-Louis is calculating, assuming g
>>to be 9.773 m/s^2, the wire length would need to change by about 14cm (12%)
>>to see that much of a shift in the pendulum's period.

***{Correct. If we assume that g = 9.773 m/sec^2 in both cases, we obtain L
= g[(T/2�)^2] = 9.773[(2.288/2�)^2] = 1.295 meters, which is an increase of
.14 meters, or 12%, precisely as David said. However, if his point is that
such a proportionally large change would have been noticed, I am not so
sure. Based on the photos, the pendulum was hanging in the middle of an
open room with plain, gray walls. I see little in the way of distinguishing
background features that would ensure that such a change in length would
have necessarily been noticed. Even the spot where the laser beam traversed
the pendulum could have drifted up without being noticed, since the area
where it was hitting was red and, thus, was likely the same color as the
beam itself.

Bottom line: at present, the failure of a 14 cm increase in length to be
noticed seems easier to swallow than does a change in the value of g.

--Mitchell Jones}***

Nonetheless, I
>>still stick
>>by my earlier comment and recommend using a nylon fishing line and operating
>>the unit with a battery, just to convince everyone.

***{Why not just place a vertically oriented meter stick on the floor next
to the bottom of the pendulum's arc, and measure the height under both the
pulsed and non-pulsed modes of operation? Or wrap white masking tape around
the bottom of the pendulum, so that the laser spot can be seen on it, and
make a mark at the traverse level, when the pulses are turned off, as a
reference. --MJ}***

>
>Aren't numbers wonderful things! Kudos to those like you (& Horace,
>Frederick, Scott and others) who can do 'em.
>
>It is indeed an interesting experiment.

***{That it is. This especially so in the light of David's objection,
above, which raises the very real possibility that, when the distance from
pendulum to floor is monitored, it will be found to be unchanging. In that
case, we will be faced with trying to explain how the value of g could be
altered in the vicinity of a tank circuit. As I think about such a
question, I immediately apply the precepts of the push theory of
gravitation--to wit: that the weight of the pendulum is due to there being
more "ultramundane corpuscles" raining down on the pendulum from above than
are rising up to strike it from below, due to the blocking effect of the
Earth. Now if, within that context of assumptions, we suppose that the tank
circuit somehow deflects the corpuscles around the structure of the
pendulum, then the downward force on it, and hence the value of g, would be
reduced. The idea, in other words, is that a rapidly oscillating magnetic
field might have the effect of streamlining the object, relative to the
downward moving flow of ultramundane corpuscles. If that is so, however,
then the idea which immediately occurs to me is that *even higher
frequencies* might be better than the already high frequencies that are
presently being used. Or maybe not. What is the rationale underlying
Naudin's choice of frequency? Is he, for example, treating his pendulum as
a tank circuit, and pulsing it at the frequency that minimizes the energy
consumption? Or is it something else? I assume that some sort of
preconceived theory would have to motivate a person to construct a bizarre
looking device such as this, but I have no idea what that theory might be.
--MJ}***

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 22 23:35:32 2000
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 <v01530500b5f0b24d9fbc [12.21.208.233]>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 01:20:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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>At 01:25 PM 9/22/00 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>
>>How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?
>
>Same way.  Let's not make any more rules or anything...rules are stifling.
>Besides, it doesn't happen that often.  We'll just handle it as it
>arises...if it arises.

***{Absolutely on target, and I totally agree. Well said. --MJ}***

>
>BTW, Bill you did a damned good job of it this time. However, I have
>doubts that any action at all was required here.


***{Again, I agree. I shall not miss Dennard's silly, self-promotional, and
time-wasting posts, and I think Bill handled it as well as could be
expected, given that he was going to handle it at all. However, I am
somewhat disturbed by the increasing tendency toward "hands-on" moderation
in this group. Frankly, I think the crybabies who run to "daddy" whenever a
problem arises are a bigger threat than Dennard ever was, because I see
them as being responsible for Bill's newfound interventionist tendencies.
To the crybabies, therefore, I suggest this: in the future, before you
start blubbering and run to Bill, try putting the offending individual on
filter, or, if you lack that capability, then simply get in the habit of
not reading posts from the indiviual who is irritating you. --MJ}***

Congratulations.  I
>particularly liked your recent post on scientific integrity.

***{I agreed with what I see as the main thrust of that presentation, but
there are a number of peripheral rough spots that need to be dealt with.
Perhaps if I get some time, I will post a critique. --MJ}***

Somebody
>needs to post that to the hydrino list that is discussing Mills stuff.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 00:32:45 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Commercial Water Electrolysis Cells
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>These aren't meant to make Brown's Gas
>
> http://www.electrolyser.com/website/app14.htm

Check these jokers out.  

http://www.hytechapps.com/

They've got a military contracting liason and everything!  Should be some
BIG$$$ in it for them!  Funny how they don't mention the last 25 years of
work that Brown, Rhodes, Wiseman, Knudtsen, Allied Signal, Hawkins,
Mandeville, the freaking Chinese and everyone else has done on this before
these guys filed their flurry of patents.  They make all the exact same
claims as Brown's Gas, and yet they say that no other machine but theirs can
make it.  I guess down here we'll just have to call it "Special Gas".  What
would be really great is if it was one of Horace's designs :)

Knuke - In Fraud Friendly Florida, where its not just who you know that
counts, its who's e-mail you read, who's phone you tap, who you payoff, and
how much you pay.



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 00:32:51 2000
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Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's 20th
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AK writes:
>The article was written by Judith Newman --- staff writer?
>
>The title has a small header. 'WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?'
>
>-AK-

Does it say who publishes the magazine?  Who are the advertisers?  Those are
the people who Ms. Newman was writing for, not the reader.  I'm sure they
were pleased with the "journalism", or it wouldn't have made it to press.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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In a message dated 9/22/00 9:11:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

<snip>
> Bottom line: at present, the failure of a 14 cm increase in length to be
>  noticed seems easier to swallow than does a change in the value of g.
>  
>  --Mitchell Jones}***
>  

You are joking right!!??  Not notice 5.51 inch length (14 cm) ??
Thats really funny Mitch. 
That much increase would be very noticeable as looking  at the photos
indicates. M. Naudin would have to be legally blind not to notice such
a gross increase in length.  

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 03:43:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's 20th
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At 08:05 AM 9/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Sept. 22, 2,000
>
>Vortex,
>
>The current Discover magazine issue is celebrating its twentieth year as
>a publication of "Mickey Mouse", so to speak.
>In claiming the particular issue as a "special collector's issue", it
>has articles of twenty notables in subjects such as Twenty ways the
>world could end, species we may lose, young scientists to watch, things
>that will not change, and so forth. There is one titled twenty of the
>greatest blunders in science in the last twenty years. And Cold Fusion
>(as Very Cold Fusion) is listed as one of them. It gives reference to
>Park's 'Voodoo Science' covering CF and some words of Marc Abrahams of
>'Annals of Improbable Research.
>
>The pity of the short paragraphs (the whole thing is a pity) are it
>includes remarks, one of which is:  "The problem is, no other scientists
>have been able to reproduce their results --- and not for lack of
>trying". This is is reference to Pons & Fleischmann fusion effect.



     Perhaps one of the common characteristics of such
pathological criticism is: failure to actually read the literature
and/or contact those doing the investigations.
   [Many have tried to get such low-grade "reviewers" and
pseudo-scientists to read the literature ..... tried and failed. ]

No doubt, Discover magazine would have also been against
"hand-washing", with a citation of "Voodoo Surgical Practices"
which would have attacked Semmelweiss for suggesting
hand-washing before the delivering of babies.   ;-)X

     Thanks for the heads-up, Akira.

          Mitchell Swartz




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But, but, but...

*-----Original Message-----
*From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
*Sent: 2000 September 23, Saturday 03:25
*To: vortex-l eskimo.com
*Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
*
><
*
*How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?  I've resisted
*giving Vortex any real rules in order to force it to be self-creating and
*self-policing.
><
*We could make it a Vortex-L crime to be extremely self-important.

Simply an attribute, does not reflect content.
How would you even quantify such a thing ?
 Kbytes per day posted ?
 Number of replies posted per day ?
 Number of people insulted per posting ?

*  Or to lack conventional education.  

Which this back-water planet doesn't even have yet ?...
[btw - when you say education, are you referring to the
 prisoner/warden system of proving a person's ability
 to submit his/her neural existence to acknowledgement
 of someone else's mental superiority ?  The whole basis
 of this planet's term 'education' is the prostration
 of individuals in homage to established authority.
 Knowledge/mental skills are not the goal here -
 the real goal is proven acceptance of established authority.] 

*Or to be boring.  

Why pick on Jed ?  Even he contributes somewhat meaningful
 observations from time to time.

><
*
*Vortex-L could become more exclusionary and elitist; an invitation-only
*forum.  Others have tried to start these, but I don't know if they were
*successful.

Babies and bathwater.



Dennards are hazards that eventually show themselves up,
 albeit over time.
The fallout from such blatherings is emotional,
 but these events have several potential positives
 which argue forbearance until content-absent flaming
 begins to prevail (as it did these past few weeks):

1) Until they start spinning out of control,
 these 'village landmarks' will, occasionally, spew forth
 something which makes us think. It's a case of badly
 performed experiments which have productive results
 [frame-dragging for massive charged bodies, anyone ?]
 (Oersted, IFMSC ?)

2) They demonstrate how NOT to behave when criticized.
 Newcomers can always learn this by observing bad practice
 in action - this is even more effective than a well-written
 set of guidelines.

3) They sometimes manage to point out who is next to
 fall into the same patch of mud-slinging.

4) Disproving them always clears the way for more ideas,
 and the actual effort to disprove also points out potential
 new paths. (Dean drive and the conversion between modes
 of momentum)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 06:08:09 2000
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: RE: RF Pendulum
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pitfalls of testing: see below

*-----Original Message-----
*From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
*Sent: 2000 September 23, Saturday 02:58
*To: vortex-l eskimo.com
*Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
*
*
*>Ahoy,
*>
*>I thought that this might be of interest to Kyle M. mainly, but
*JLN Labs has
*>updated their website as of today, and it includes a new bunch of stuff on
*>the Stavros RF Pendulum.  It is one of the weirder looking gizmos, I must
*>say. ;)
*>
*>http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/stvrfpnd4.htm
*>
*>Knuke
*
><
*
*First, I assume Naudin is treating this as a classical pendulum. Thus if T
*is the period, L is the length, and g is the acceleration of gravity, we
*have:
*
*T = 2�[sqrt(L/g)]. [For the derivation, see any elementary physics
*textbook.]
*
*Second, I assume that Naudin is setting his weird-shaped pendulum into
*motion, measuring the period by means of laser beam traversals, and
*comparing two states: (1) the state when the pendulum wires are being
*pulsed with electricity at an RF rate of 83.1 MHz, and (2) the state when
*they are *not* being pulsed.
*
*When the pendulum is being pulsed, the measured period is significantly
*longer than when it is not being pulsed. According to what I read on the
*website, when RF power is not being applied, the period, T1, is equal to
*2.16 sec, whereas with RF power the period, T2, is equal to 2.288 sec. L,
*the length of the pendulum, is given as 1.155 meters. Thus for the unpulsed
*case we have g =L[(2�/T1)^2] = 1.155[(2�/2.16)^2] = 9.773 m/sec^2. For the
*pulsed case, on the other hand, we have g =L[(2�/T1)^2] =
*1.155[(2�/2.288)^2] = 8.71 m/sec^2. Thus the implication would seem to be
*that the acceleration due to gravity is *decreased* as a result of the RF
*pulses!
*
><
*
*(2) Note that the pendulum is suspended from twisted-pair wiring, through
*which it receives current from the outside. Since oppositely directed
*currents in the two wires would cause them to repel one another, giving
*rise to a tendency for the spiral to unwind--a tendency that would *not* be
*present when the RF pulses were turned off, it follows that the pendulum
*should lengthen when the RF is turned on, due to the progressive unwinding
*of the wires. Result: the period should get longer, accounting for the
*observed effect.
*
*All comments, especially critical comments, are welcome.
*
*--Mitchell Jones}***
*

I had the same effect from a high-current [DC] experiment.
 It came from a wire spiraling around the suspension
 twine. It appeared to cause anomalous pendulum effects
 on a suspended balance, but after I examined the setup
 carefully I was (sadly) able to confirm the motion to be
 from this rather than the effect I hoped to create.
 I did confirm this by rerouting the current in a number of
 ways, whereby the setup ceased any detectable movement.

Moments like that tend to incline one to waste time
 watching TV rather than exploring obscure references
 to unconventional forces. Fortunately, television is
 so boring only a few seconds exposure inspires new effort.


soldiering on in the mists....


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 06:15:24 2000
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Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:11:10 +0700
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I tried to get water-filled tubing
(pure as well as saline)
 to act as electromagnets and transformers.
I even tried using a water pump to circulate
 charged water, but nothing happened.
I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current
 to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way)
It simply would not work -
 no detectable em field whatsoever.
I had hoped it would, as I have applications...

I think they failed due to the
 large diameter tubing (5mm)
 but perhaps not...

The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to
 like magnetic fields.

On the other hand, I have been able
 to propel water using electricity as previously
 described. I wanted to use this method
 for a water-jet drive on my boat.
 Only problem is the salt-water corrosion
 seems to vaporize any electrodes.

regards


*-----Original Message-----
*From: Michael T Huffman [mailto:knuke lcia.com]
*Sent: 2000 September 19, Tuesday 20:06
*To: vortex-l eskimo.com
*Subject: Re: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
*
*
*>This principle (I think it was originally called a Faraday Pump)
*was evaluated
*>for pumping NaK in nuclear reactors as early as the 1950s.
*>
*>Regards,   Frederick
*
*Couldn't this also be used as an inefficient transformer?  Suppose you had
*some goat bladders or intestines or something, sewn-together into a ring
*filled with conducting fluid, and covered with amber resin, pine sap or
*pitch to harden it into shape and to keep it from leaking.  Today, we would
*just use PVC pipe curved into a ring, I suppose.  A primary coil
*on one side
*and a secondary on the other? ;)
*
*We just need to figure out the Egyptian oscillator, and we're Flying Carpet
*Guys. I'd better get my fez!  A metal covered, musical reed pipe, perhaps?
*All the instruments that I can think of that employ reeds have the reeds in
*the mouthpiece, so that wouldn't work.  Do bagpipes use reeds that
*are not a
*part of the mouthpiece?  A giant tuning fork or gong, maybe?
*
*Knuke
*
*Michael T. Huffman
*Huffman Technology Company
*1121 Dustin Drive
*The Villages, Florida 32159
*(352)259-1276
*knuke LCIA.COM
*http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
*
*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 07:28:13 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <20.bc3ac57.26fe16ae aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:22:38 EDT
Subject: Re: I'm to speak at ANS .
To: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 9/23/00 10:02:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FZNIDARSIC 
writes:

<< In a message dated 9/22/00 9:16:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
 
 << I note that 1 MHz*m is actually a velocity, and is about = c x alpha or
  perhaps c x alpha/PI.
  Related perhaps?
  
  Regards,
  
  Robin van Spaandonk >> >>

Robin that is a very good point.  I had not thought of it that way.  My train 
of thought was,  meters was a term used to factor in the size of the Bose 
condensate.  Factoring  in diameter in meters yields the required frequency 
of stimulation.

This term came out of my model.  What it means in that at this frequency for 
a Bose condensate the elastic limit of space is exceeded.  This produces a 
reflection that confines the energy (mass energy) within matter.

c/ 137 = 2 megahertz meter, the velocity of the ground state of hydrogen.

The means something.  My one megahertzmeter calculation was done for a 
superconducting sphere in a bath of liquid nitrogen.  The nitrogen has a 
diaelectric constant of two.  In free space the consstant is closer to 2 
megahhertz meters.

I have to look at the other elements but we are working with a new 
fundimantal low energy constant.  Could the ground state orbits be Bose 
condensates?

I

Frank Znidarsic 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 08:57:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's 20th
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Sept 23, 2,000

Vortex,

Discover is owned by the Disney 'conglomerate' -- that's where the
`````Mickey Mouse adage comes.

Michael T Huffman wrote: 
> Does it say who publishes the magazine?  
>Who are the advertisers?  Those are the people who Ms. Newman was >writing for, not the reader.  

In this case, I do not think advertisers have too much to do with a well
beaten item. It's more a laziness factor in meeting a publishing
timetable.

-kA-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 09:05:28 2000
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Message-ID: <001301c0257f$c44367c0$d1441d26 fjsparber>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Sources of The Sun's Heat
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:58:42 -0700
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Sun's Specs:

Radius,   6.96E8 meters

Volume, 1.41E27   meters^3

Temperature Range, 300 K to > 3.0E7 K

Pressure Range,  Microbars to  > Gigabars

Total Energy Output, 3.86E26  watts

Average Energy Density,  0.2736 watts/meter^3

Energy Density if taken over 1/millionth the Sun's Volume,  0.273 watts/cm^3

Possible Heat Sources:

1,  Hot Fusion

2, Cold Fusion

3, Hydrino Formation

4,  ZPE Heating

5, Gravitational Pressure

6,  Negative Viscosity Heating

Any or All of these could explain the "Missing Neutrinos".

Short of Compressing a cubic Centimeter of  solid Deuterium-Tritium to 
a cubic Millimeter, Benchtop Production of 0.273 Watts/cm^3 of Over-Unity heat 
doesn't look very promising.   :-(

Regards,    Frederick



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Message-ID: <39CCD768.E194DFC8 austininstruments.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:16:40 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

...

> ***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
> bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff. As for more
> intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
> head. Instead, the various crybabies in this group should dry their eyes,
> grow up, and recognize that they are responsible for dealing with their
> problems as individuals. That means the solution to idiots like Dennard is
> to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
> capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts. What we
> *don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
> butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***

...

---

I agree, but it seems, interestingly, that you're placing _yourself_ in
an authoritarian role by denigrating the feelings and actions (re.
Dennard) of others in this group and implying that your solution is a
panacea.  If it works for you, fine, but that doesn't mean it'll work
for everyone.

Having, by your own admission, not read most of Dennard's stuff you're
not really (IMHO) in a position to issue edicts about how he should have
been handled.

I think Bill's handling of the situation was excellent and exemplary of
his usual policy of non-intervention.

I believe when people like Dennard come along and actively disrupt a
reasonably civilized group for no other reason than self aggrandisement,
and if enough members of the group complain, then something should be
done to minimize the disruption.

Bill gave Dennard every chance (and since it's Bill's list and there
_are_ rules, he gets to give chances if he wants to!) to "straighten
up", and yet Dennard fought tooth and nail every step of the way to
remain a spoiled brat.

I'm glad Dennard's gone from here, and If I want to read him I know
where he is.

Strangely enough, he's got total access to vortexb but I haven't heard a
peep from him over there.  He's probably off somewhere blubbering and
stomping his feet or waiting for the expiration period to end so he can
go pick up his gun.

BTW, this probably should have been posted to "b", but I don't know if
you're subscribed and I consider unsolicited emails to be intrusive, so
here we are!

---

John Fields

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Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:25:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's 20th
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>At 08:05 AM 9/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>>Sept. 22, 2,000
>>
>>Vortex,
>>
>>The current Discover magazine issue is celebrating its twentieth year as
>>a publication of "Mickey Mouse", so to speak.
>>In claiming the particular issue as a "special collector's issue", it
>>has articles of twenty notables in subjects such as Twenty ways the
>>world could end, species we may lose, young scientists to watch, things
>>that will not change, and so forth. There is one titled twenty of the
>>greatest blunders in science in the last twenty years. And Cold Fusion
>>(as Very Cold Fusion) is listed as one of them. It gives reference to
>>Park's 'Voodoo Science' covering CF and some words of Marc Abrahams of
>>'Annals of Improbable Research.
>>
>>The pity of the short paragraphs (the whole thing is a pity) are it
>>includes remarks, one of which is:  "The problem is, no other scientists
>>have been able to reproduce their results --- and not for lack of
>>trying". This is is reference to Pons & Fleischmann fusion effect.
>
>
>
>     Perhaps one of the common characteristics of such
>pathological criticism is: failure to actually read the literature
>and/or contact those doing the investigations.
>   [Many have tried to get such low-grade "reviewers" and
>pseudo-scientists to read the literature ..... tried and failed. ]
>
>No doubt, Discover magazine would have also been against
>"hand-washing", with a citation of "Voodoo Surgical Practices"
>which would have attacked Semmelweiss for suggesting
>hand-washing before the delivering of babies.   ;-)X
>
>     Thanks for the heads-up, Akira.
>
>          Mitchell Swartz

***{Hi Mitch. Welcome back. --MJ}***

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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>In a message dated 9/22/00 9:11:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
><snip>
>> Bottom line: at present, the failure of a 14 cm increase in length to be
>>  noticed seems easier to swallow than does a change in the value of g.
>>
>>  --Mitchell Jones}***
>>
>
>You are joking right!!??  Not notice 5.51 inch length (14 cm) ??
>Thats really funny Mitch.
>That much increase would be very noticeable as looking  at the photos
>indicates. M. Naudin would have to be legally blind not to notice such
>a gross increase in length.
>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram

***{Hey, I'm not rejecting the idea out of hand. I'm just asking for more
information.

As to whether Jean-Louis would have to be blind to miss such a change, it
depends on the dimensions of the apparatus itself. If it is very small,
then you are correct; but if it is very large, then the situation is
unclear. Consider the length of the red protuberance at the bottom, in the
center, for example: how long is it? Is it more than 14 cm, or less? If
less, then a lengthening of the pendulum by 14 cm would cause the laser
spot to no longer hit the protuberance, and that would have been noticed;
but if more, then variations in the level at which the spot hit could have
easily not been noticed. Since I am in the position of having to guess the
dimensions, I am unwilling to definitively state that a 14 cm variation in
the length would have been noticed, though it admittedly does seem likely
that it would have been. Thus I am not claiming that Naudin is legally
blind. I am merely asking for more information.

By the way, another question I have concerns the pulse pathway. It seems
clear enough that a pulse coming down one of the wires will then fly about
in the device, and finally exit by going up and out via the other wire in
the twisted pair. Thus current clearly flows in opposite directions within
the two wires of the twisted pair. But in the array of wires that comprise
the device itself, the situation is unclear. Does a downward moving pulse
along one of the wires divide at top center, rush outward along the various
wires in the top half of the device, then converge back together again
along the wires in the bottom half of the device, and exit by going back up
the other wire in the twisted pair? Or does the fact that the insulation
color alternates from red to blue from wire to wire around the array
indicate that the direction of pulse travel alternates from wire to wire as
well? In other words, what is the detailed schematic of the device? If one
is presented on the Naudin website, I have somehow failed to find it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 10:37:35 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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xplore wrote:
>I tried to get water-filled tubing
>(pure as well as saline)
> to act as electromagnets and transformers.
>I even tried using a water pump to circulate
> charged water, but nothing happened.
>I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current
> to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way)
>It simply would not work -
> no detectable em field whatsoever.
>I had hoped it would, as I have applications...
>
>I think they failed due to the
> large diameter tubing (5mm)
> but perhaps not...
>
>The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to
> like magnetic fields.

Ahoy There!

I don't know exactly what to think about this.  On the one hand, I'm
disappointed, on the other I'm fascinated.  Theoretically, I would think
that it should work.  I can also think of ways to perhaps make it work, but
I'm primarily intrigued at finding out why it did not work for you.  There
could be something interesting happening here that has other applications.
Thanks for the comeback, and I will continue to look into this.  Just for
the sake of this particular application, do you know of a cheap and safe way
to transform high voltage surges?  It doesn't even have to be
extraordinarily efficient for the time being, as long as it works, and I can
put it together myself, preferably with just a hammer.

Knuke - The Alley Oop Oop of Engineering



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 10:41:38 2000
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Vince writes:
>You are joking right!!??  Not notice 5.51 inch length (14 cm) ??
>Thats really funny Mitch. 
>That much increase would be very noticeable as looking  at the photos
>indicates. M. Naudin would have to be legally blind not to notice such
>a gross increase in length.  
>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram

Those darn numbers again... ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 10:47:43 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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At 8:11 PM 9/23/0, xplorer the name less wrote:
>I tried to get water-filled tubing
>(pure as well as saline)
> to act as electromagnets and transformers.
>I even tried using a water pump to circulate
> charged water, but nothing happened.
>I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current
> to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way)
>It simply would not work -
> no detectable em field whatsoever.
>I had hoped it would, as I have applications...
>
>I think they failed due to the
> large diameter tubing (5mm)
> but perhaps not...
>
>The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to
> like magnetic fields.


Did you try my earlier sugestion of measuring the resistance of the water
primary and then paralleling it with copper coils (winding the copper coils
over the water tubing primary) and adding a resistor to make a similar
resistance?  It could simply be that you have made a poorly coupling
transformer with a high impedence primary.  Is your secondary coil water
also?  If so, you could replace or parallel that with copper also.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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At 4:14 PM 9/22/0, Scott Little wrote:
>At 01:25 PM 9/22/00 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>
>>How should any "whirlpowers" of the future be handled?
>
>Same way.  Let's not make any more rules or anything...rules are stifling.
>Besides, it doesn't happen that often.  We'll just handle it as it
>arises...if it arises.
>
>BTW, Bill you did a damned good job of it this time.  Congratulations.

I agree with the above.  This is a pretty darned tolerant group and it took
two years of concerted effort on Mr. Dennard's part to stimulate an action,
so it shouldn't happen very often.

However, I do think it may help preserve the nature of the list and avoid
confusion as to what the list is about if the intended subject matter, what
it is and examples of what it isn't, were included with the sign-on (rules)
message, not so rigid as rules, but more as guidelines or an introduction
for prospective members.   Admittedly this is difficult to do, but it may
be worth the effort.  This list is a great resource, and I personally feel
it would be a great loss if it were changed in character from a serious
energy related scientific discussion group with a helpful cooperative
spirit to a squabble fest like sci.physics.fusion, or if the level of
discusion were dropped to that of grade school science.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 11:04:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:55:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>...
>
>> ***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
>> bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff. As for more
>> intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
>> head. Instead, the various crybabies in this group should dry their eyes,
>> grow up, and recognize that they are responsible for dealing with their
>> problems as individuals. That means the solution to idiots like Dennard is
>> to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
>> capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts. What we
>> *don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
>> butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***
>
>...
>
>---
>
>I agree, but it seems, interestingly, that you're placing _yourself_ in
>an authoritarian role by denigrating the feelings and actions (re.
>Dennard) of others in this group and implying that your solution is a
>panacea.

***{If such an argument were valid, it would cut both ways. That means you,
by labeling my criticisms as "authoritarian," would tar yourself with your
own brush, since you are criticising me. :-) --MJ}***

If it works for you, fine, but that doesn't mean it'll work
>for everyone.

***{I beg to differ: ignoring irritating posts or putting them on filter
will, in fact, work for everyone, provided only that the individuals in
question are not, in fact, motivated by a desire to censor the statements
of others. This situation, you see, is just another manifestation of the
old paradox, wherein people who bitch about books or movies or television
programs, are not satisfied when told to simply not read those books, or to
not watch the movies or the television programs. The reason they are not
satisfied is that they are in fact not motivated by a reaction to
"offensive" material, but by a desire to prevent others from having access
to that material. --MJ}***

>
>Having, by your own admission, not read most of Dennard's stuff you're
>not really (IMHO) in a position to issue edicts about how he should have
>been handled.

***{I'm stating my opinions, just as you are stating yours. Hence if that
constitutes the issuance of "edicts," then you are once again tarred by
your own brush. --MJ}***

>
>I think Bill's handling of the situation was excellent and exemplary of
>his usual policy of non-intervention.

***{He handled it well, if you grant that it needed to be handled at all.
I, however, do not believe it needed to be handled. What Bill needs to
recognize is that he has a simple choice: ignore the crybabies, or submit
to their censorship of this group. Instead, he is attempting to find middle
ground. Ultimately, however, he will discover that it does not exist.
(Every village needs an idiot, and Dennard was ours. If anything, I will
miss him. His presence here proved, for all to see, that this was a forum
that was truly open to all. And his absence, I'm afraid, signifies the
approach of a heavy-handed regime that will crush the life out of this
group, and drive the most interesting opinions elsewhere.) --MJ}***

>
>I believe when people like Dennard come along and actively disrupt a
>reasonably civilized group for no other reason than self aggrandisement,
>and if enough members of the group complain, then something should be
>done to minimize the disruption.

***{The issue is not whether that should be done, but how. Specifically,
should the intervention of a heavy-handed "moderator" be required, or
should the various persons who were irritated by Dennard's posts take
action *as individuals*, by simply placing him on filter or ceasing to read
his stuff? In my view, freedom requires a population whose members prefer
to act individually rather than collectively, and when collective action is
preferred, freedom becomes impossible. Such a principle does not merely
apply to nations, but also to voluntary associations such as this one.
--MJ}***

>
>Bill gave Dennard every chance (and since it's Bill's list and there
>_are_ rules, he gets to give chances if he wants to!

***{Of course it is his list, and he is free to run it well, or wreck it,
depending on the choices he makes. He is not, however, free to take actions
without generating consequences. --MJ}***

) to "straighten
>up", and yet Dennard fought tooth and nail every step of the way to
>remain a spoiled brat.
>
>I'm glad Dennard's gone from here, and If I want to read him I know
>where he is.

***{It is a matter of indifference to me whether he goes or stays, if his
choice is freely made. As I said, I considered most of his stuff to be a
waste of time, and didn't read it. I am, however, disturbed by the forcible
manner of his removal from this group, and by what it may signify. The
reason: I dislike censorious crybabies far more than I dislike
simple-minded idiots, and I fear that Bill is on the verge of giving in to
their unrelenting pressures. --MJ}***

>
>Strangely enough, he's got total access to vortexb but I haven't heard a
>peep from him over there.  He's probably off somewhere blubbering and
>stomping his feet or waiting for the expiration period to end so he can
>go pick up his gun.
>
>BTW, this probably should have been posted to "b", but I don't know if
>you're subscribed and I consider unsolicited emails to be intrusive, so
>here we are!

***{It's and important subject, and is better discussed on a list that
Dennard isn't reading. After all, I would not feel comfortable referring to
him as an idiot, if he hadn't been booted off of this list. :-) --MJ}***

>
>---
>
>John Fields

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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >...
> >
> >> ***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
> >> bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff. As for more
> >> intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
> >> head. Instead, the various crybabies in this group should dry their eyes,
> >> grow up, and recognize that they are responsible for dealing with their
> >> problems as individuals. That means the solution to idiots like Dennard is
> >> to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
> >> capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts. What we
> >> *don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
> >> butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***
> >
> >...
> >
> >---
> >
> >I agree, but it seems, interestingly, that you're placing _yourself_ in
> >an authoritarian role by denigrating the feelings and actions (re.
> >Dennard) of others in this group and implying that your solution is a
> >panacea.
> 
> ***{If such an argument were valid, it would cut both ways. That means you,
> by labeling my criticisms as "authoritarian," would tar yourself with your
> own brush, since you are criticising me. :-) --MJ}***


---
If?  I never said I wasn't authoritarian ;^).  What I was remarking on
was the dichotomy of your espousing non-authoritarianism from an
authoritarian platform.
---
 
 
> If it works for you, fine, but that doesn't mean it'll work
> >for everyone.
> 
> ***{I beg to differ: ignoring irritating posts or putting them on filter
> will, in fact, work for everyone, provided only that the individuals in
> question are not, in fact, motivated by a desire to censor the statements
> of others.


---
I don't believe that's true, on two levels.  First, since not everyone
_chooses_ to use a filter or to ignore irritating posts, it won't work
for everyone regardless of your "advice".  Second, your advice that
everyone use a filter is tantamount to censorship inasmuch as if your
advice were accepted universally Dennard would effectively be silenced. 
Another really negative aspect of ignore-ance is the capabilty for a
deranged individual to grow in power because of non-criticism.  I
believe a large part of Hitler's "success" was due to his actions being
actively ignored (yeah, yeah, I know... You can't "actively" ignore.)
and _not_ critcised during the early years of his campaign against
humankind. 
---


> This situation, you see, is just another manifestation of the
> old paradox, wherein people who bitch about books or movies or television
> programs, are not satisfied when told to simply not read those books, or to
> not watch the movies or the television programs. The reason they are not
> satisfied is that they are in fact not motivated by a reaction to
> "offensive" material, but by a desire to prevent others from having access
> to that material. --MJ}***


---
I don't believe it's a paradox in the true sense of the word; it's
either hypocrisy or just the inability of some to fail to realize that
what _they_ consider offensive isn't necessarily universally offensive.
---


> >Having, by your own admission, not read most of Dennard's stuff you're
> >not really (IMHO) in a position to issue edicts about how he should have
> >been handled.
> 
> ***{I'm stating my opinions, just as you are stating yours. Hence if that
> constitutes the issuance of "edicts," then you are once again tarred by
> your own brush. --MJ}***


---
Perhaps, but my opinions were formed after having read Dennard for some
time.
Yours, since you haven't read much of Dennard, are somewhat arbitrary.
---

> >I think Bill's handling of the situation was excellent and exemplary of
> >his usual policy of non-intervention.

> ***{He handled it well, if you grant that it needed to be handled at all.
> I, however, do not believe it needed to be handled. What Bill needs to
> recognize is that he has a simple choice: ignore the crybabies, or submit
> to their censorship of this group. Instead, he is attempting to find middle
> ground. Ultimately, however, he will discover that it does not exist.


---
Not true. The middle ground exists as a line which one servos about,
(much like the line between Yin and Yang) and Bill has many more choices
available than just two.
---


> (Every village needs an idiot, and Dennard was ours.


---
Yes, he was, but I disagree that every village "needs" an idiot.
---


> If anything, I will
> miss him. His presence here proved, for all to see, that this was a forum
> that was truly open to all. And his absence, I'm afraid, signifies the
> approach of a heavy-handed regime that will crush the life out of this
> group, and drive the most interesting opinions elsewhere.) --MJ}***


---
There's no reason for you to miss him, since he has an email address, a
website which you can access, and a list to which you can subscribe.

As I understand it, his presence here (as is all of ours) was subject to
a very loose conformance to a set of rules which Bill set up in order to
keep this list from degenerating into a name-calling non-technical
free-for-all.  Had you followed Dennard's posts you would have seen that
toward the end he (Dennard) was clearly out of control.   If a stranger
rang your doorbell and you invited him (her) into your home and
introduced them to guests whom you admired and respected and then that
stranger became obnoxious and abusive to your other guests what would
you do?  Invite them over again and again?

I wouldn't, but maybe that's just me.  I only have four cheeks.
---
  


> >I believe when people like Dennard come along and actively disrupt a
> >reasonably civilized group for no other reason than self aggrandisement,
> >and if enough members of the group complain, then something should be
> >done to minimize the disruption.

---
> ***{The issue is not whether that should be done, but how. Specifically,
> should the intervention of a heavy-handed "moderator" be required, or
> should the various persons who were irritated by Dennard's posts take
> action *as individuals*, by simply placing him on filter or ceasing to read
> his stuff? In my view, freedom requires a population whose members prefer
> to act individually rather than collectively, and when collective action is
> preferred, freedom becomes impossible. Such a principle does not merely
> apply to nations, but also to voluntary associations such as this one.
> --MJ}***


---
Total freedom, then, according to you, is reverting to an anarchistic
jungle mentality.

Fine. I don't have a problem with that, and Bill set up the rules for
vortexb so that there would be no rules there. ;^)

But on _this_ list there _are_ rules, and as long as everyone here
_individually_ agrees to play by the rules what's wrong with that? 
You're doing it, no?

But, when someone like Dennard comes along and brings a baseball bat to
what was a soccer game and tells everyone on the field that they're
playing the wrong game and that they need to be playing baseball, then
it's time for Dennard to take a hike.
---
 

> >Bill gave Dennard every chance (and since it's Bill's list and there
> >_are_ rules, he gets to give chances if he wants to!
> 
> ***{Of course it is his list, and he is free to run it well, or wreck it,
> depending on the choices he makes. He is not, however, free to take actions
> without generating consequences. --MJ}***


---
With all due respect, Mitchell, (may I call you Mitchell?) Puh-leaseee
spare us (me) that platitude!^)

Like, the last time I was free to take action I refrained and I'm not
sure I'll ever recover from the consequences. ;^)
---



> ) to "straighten
> >up", and yet Dennard fought tooth and nail every step of the way to
> >remain a spoiled brat.
> >
> >I'm glad Dennard's gone from here, and If I want to read him I know
> >where he is.

 
> ***{It is a matter of indifference to me whether he goes or stays, if his
> choice is freely made. As I said, I considered most of his stuff to be a
> waste of time, and didn't read it. I am, however, disturbed by the forcible
> manner of his removal from this group, and by what it may signify. The
> reason: I dislike censorious crybabies far more than I dislike
> simple-minded idiots, and I fear that Bill is on the verge of giving in to
> their unrelenting pressures. --MJ}***


---
I don't think you need to worry, since (from the view of past
performance) it's not likely that Bill will give in to the unrelenting
pressure of simple-minded idiots.
---

 
> >Strangely enough, he's got total access to vortexb but I haven't heard a
> >peep from him over there.  He's probably off somewhere blubbering and
> >stomping his feet or waiting for the expiration period to end so he can
> >go pick up his gun.
> >
> >BTW, this probably should have been posted to "b", but I don't know if
> >you're subscribed and I consider unsolicited emails to be intrusive, so
> >here we are!

 
> ***{It's and important subject, and is better discussed on a list that
> Dennard isn't reading. After all, I would not feel comfortable referring to
> him as an idiot, if he hadn't been booted off of this list. :-) --MJ}***

---
So much for total freedom...
As long as he can't hear you you can say what you want to without fear
of reprisal?

Barf. 
---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

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On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> ***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
> bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff.

That's just how a newspaper works: discard the sports and business
sections before reading anything.  But newspapers have strict "censorship" 
in the form of editor decisions, otherwise they would become so huge that
their weight, as well as the difficulty of finding the interesting parts,
both would make people stop subscribing.  (As it is, many people cannot
subscribe here because a weeks worth of messages is a big task to
save/delete.)  Also, a newcomer might pick up such an unedited newspaper,
read a few paragraphs, then drop it in disgust, never knowing that any
interesting parts exist at all.


On listservers, like attracts like, so even if we each block a certain
individual, there is a good chance that more and more of the same stuff
will be attracted. A totally unedited newspaper gives a soapbox to anyone
who wants an audience, therefore it tends to attract noisy people who are
greatly impressed with themselves.  It also forces each separate reader to
become the editor.  I guess newspaper subscribers are weak people who
don't want to listen to self-important blustering, and want someone else
to do the editing for them?  At the very least it saves time to have just
one person do heavy editing, and then subscribers can read every single
article.

Censorship issues vanish when anyone can start their own "paper."  It is
often the noisy egotists who cry "censorship", but what they REALLY mean
is "you people HAVE to listen to me!"  ...or maybe they mean "I don't want
to be responsible for such a forum, or to have to behave myself in order
to attract a listserver audience, I am entitled to use THIS audience, so
you HAVE to let me say anything I want."  But an active audience can
refuse to listen, or they can even decide to turn a deaf ear collectively.


> As for more
> intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
> head.

sci.physics.fusion and alt.sci.physics.new-theories cover everything here.
If total lack of moderation or rules-enforcement is so desirable, I might
as well close down vortex-L as being redundant.  

But if similar sources of discussion already exist, then why did people
subscribe in the first place. There must be SOME reason.  :) 

If vortex-L is like a newsletter, then the problem is really the exact
opposite:  I am a poor "editor" because I just publish every single thing
anyone sends me, and this tends to drive away readers with a low tolerance
for willful ignorance and such.  With heavier moderation the quality would
certainly go up.  But quality is not the only consideration.


> That means the solution to idiots like Dennard is
> to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
> capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts.

If that worked, there would be far less need for moderation.  But when
many others engage blocked blocked person in debate, it becomes impossible
to avoid reading responses.  And if that blocked individual comments on
all current threads, which then draws responses, you can't even avoid him
by avoiding certain threads. 

> What we
> *don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
> butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***

What we HAVE is a community.  This is intentional: rather than creating my
own rules, I let the community design itself to a large extent by taking
lots of input on rules and moderator actions.  It is self-policing. 
Vortex-L is formed and operated by mob rule, and as long as it remains an
intelligent and tolerant mob, this is a good thing.  Note that I did not
arbitrarily make a silent personal decision to move Whirlpower onto
vortexB.  Vortex-L itself asked for this, and only after plenty of
individual complaints about the thread.  If the vortex-L group wants to
stop listening to ANY thread, I'll take on responsibility to make it
happen.

If anyone wants to start a vortex-clone on Egroups with more moderation or
less, they are free to advertize its existence here, within reason.  If
more or less moderation is highly desirable, the alternate list will be
extremely popular.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 17:34:13 2000
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On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> However, I do think it may help preserve the nature of the list and
> avoid confusion as to what the list is about if the intended subject
> matter, what it is and examples of what it isn't, were included with the
> sign-on (rules)  message, not so rigid as rules, but more as guidelines
> or an introduction for prospective members.

Good idea.  If exclusion of "unwanted" threads occurs, the definition of
"unwanted" needs to be stated far more clearly.  Flamewars and non-science
are obvious.  Crackpotism has been a problem (Newman, Meyer, and anyone
looking for publicity rather than for thoughful conversation.)  Mr. 
Dennard certainly took laudable actions in a crackpot topic: he abandoned
secrecy, an he wasn't after financial backing.  


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 18:19:52 2000
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On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
> > However, I do think it may help preserve the nature of the list and
> > avoid confusion as to what the list is about if the intended subject
> > matter, what it is and examples of what it isn't, were included with
> 
> Good idea.  If exclusion of "unwanted" threads occurs, the definition of
> "unwanted" needs to be stated far more clearly.  Flamewars and
> non-science are obvious.  Crackpotism has been a problem (Newman, Meyer,
> and anyone looking for publicity rather than for thoughful
> conversation.)  Mr.  Dennard certainly took laudable actions in a
> crackpot topic: he abandoned secrecy, an he wasn't after financial
> backing.

And what ARE the vortex-L topics?  Not vortex energy.  More like
"discussing the evidence for physical, chemical, and biological anomalies,
and trying to replicate these experimentally."  That gets rid of any
endless discussions of unsupported theories, and might produce fairly
interesting conversations.  Perhaps theories to EXPLAIN known anomalies
should fit in there somewhere too.  How about this as well: "The audience
is a group of scientists, tech workers, and advanced amateurs."


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 18:21:11 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
> ***{Correct. If we assume that g = 9.773 m/sec^2 in both cases, we obtain L
> = g[(T/2�)^2] = 9.773[(2.288/2�)^2] = 1.295 meters, which is an increase of
> .14 meters, or 12%, precisely as David said. However, if his point is that
> such a proportionally large change would have been noticed, I am not so
> sure. Based on the photos, the pendulum was hanging in the middle of an
> open room with plain, gray walls. I see little in the way of distinguishing
> background features that would ensure that such a change in length would
> have necessarily been noticed. Even the spot where the laser beam traversed
> the pendulum could have drifted up without being noticed, since the area
> where it was hitting was red and, thus, was likely the same color as the
> beam itself.
> 
> Bottom line: at present, the failure of a 14 cm increase in length to be
> noticed seems easier to swallow than does a change in the value of g.

That was my point. Thanks for expanding on it.

> ***{Why not just place a vertically oriented meter stick on the floor next
> to the bottom of the pendulum's arc, and measure the height under both the
> pulsed and non-pulsed modes of operation? Or wrap white masking tape around
> the bottom of the pendulum, so that the laser spot can be seen on it, and
> make a mark at the traverse level, when the pulses are turned off, as a
> reference. --MJ}***

Using a reference ruler and videotaping it would give a nice
observation(cheap and easy). By slowing the tape down and watching frame
by frame, both before and after energizing the circuit, you could see
any shift in the length. Also, you could align a laser beam /
photodetecctor  so that it just touches the lowest part of the antenna.
Any shifting above the beam at the lowest part of the parabolic arc will
be seen.

Even if all these changes are many and the change in the pendulum's
period is still seen, that still doesn't mean a change in "g". JLN
pointed out on his website that the shift could be due to possible
reasons. One was a change in g. The other was an alteration of the air
surrounding the antenna that somehow caused a change in its drag
properties. By placing in the antenna inside a vacuum chamber you could
rule this out. Of course, that's a pretty big setup, so maybe an easier
method would be to place it inside an air tight chamber and vary the air
composition and pressure and see if the effect changes any. But
actually, if you write out the simple equations of motion, you see that
we've been assuming that inertial mass(mi) and gravitational mass(mg)
have been equivalent and that g was being varied. If either mi or mg, or
its ratio was being varied, then that could also account for a shift in
the period.

Or maybe the rf was somehow causing an electrostatic induction effect on
the walls in a similar way that  a Tesla coil can induce electrostatic
induction. Perhaps there was just a coulombic effect going on.
Jean-Louis, have you tried doing this in different sized rooms to try to
rule out this effect?

David Rosignoli

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> I had the same effect from a high-current [DC] experiment.
>  It came from a wire spiraling around the suspension
>  twine. It appeared to cause anomalous pendulum effects
>  on a suspended balance, but after I examined the setup
>  carefully I was (sadly) able to confirm the motion to be
>  from this rather than the effect I hoped to create.
>  I did confirm this by rerouting the current in a number of
>  ways, whereby the setup ceased any detectable movement.

The twine effect is also how the "mysterious magnetic spinner"  works.
See www.darlabs.com .
How much current were you using? JLN's circuit doesn't have enough of a
current draw to cause such a massive length contraction.

> Moments like that tend to incline one to waste time
>  watching TV rather than exploring obscure references
>  to unconventional forces. Fortunately, television is
>  so boring only a few seconds exposure inspires new effort.

I suppose it depends on the television program ;)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 19:30:39 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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At 2:04 PM 9/22/0, William Beaty wrote:
>Has everyone seen Nick Reiter's ongoing thread about mass changes in
>ultrasonically vibrated powders?  It's very strange, and should be easily
>replicated by anyone who has a professional lab balance with milligram
>resolution.
>
>Mr. Reiter gets a reliable effect with aluminum oxide, and recently saw a
>larger effect with Bentonite clay.  (1/20th of one percent decrease.)
>He's currently testing a whole list of materials.  The effect does not go
>away when the powder is wet or when the test tube is enclosed by foil, so
>it can't be caused by charged powder attracting some part of his lab
>balance.  The effect does not appear if the sample is only heated but not
>agitated with ultrasound, so it doesn't seem to be caused by air
>convection around warm containers.  And particular substances give no
>effect at all, which suggests that all major artifacts are out of the
>running.



I don't follow freenrg, so what I say may have been covered,  It seems
reasonable that some substances may outgas upon acoustic stimulation, and
readsorb the gas over a brief period following.   One candiate for such a
gas is ordinary water vapor.  To check this hypothesis all that is required
is to seal the test tube, perferably by melting the glass.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 21:34:51 2000
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Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:32:24 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: WHY does everyone attack Mr. Dennard?
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> >
>> >...
>> >
>> >> ***{Personally, I consider Dennard to have been a non-problem. He didn't
>> >> bother me, because I simply ignored most of his stuff. As for more
>> >> intensive, hands-on moderation, we need that like we need a hole in the
>> >> head. Instead, the various crybabies in this group should dry their eyes,
>> >> grow up, and recognize that they are responsible for dealing with their
>> >> problems as individuals. That means the solution to idiots like
>>Dennard is
>> >> to stop blubbering and put them on filter, or, for those who lack that
>> >> capability, to simply get in the habit of not reading their posts.
>>What we
>> >> *don't* need is a benevolent, authoritarian father figure to wipe our
>> >> butts, sanitize our opinions, and tuck us into bed every night. --MJ}***
>> >
>> >...
>> >
>> >---
>> >
>> >I agree, but it seems, interestingly, that you're placing _yourself_ in
>> >an authoritarian role by denigrating the feelings and actions (re.
>> >Dennard) of others in this group and implying that your solution is a
>> >panacea.
>>
>> ***{If such an argument were valid, it would cut both ways. That means you,
>> by labeling my criticisms as "authoritarian," would tar yourself with your
>> own brush, since you are criticising me. :-) --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>If?  I never said I wasn't authoritarian ;^).  What I was remarking on
>was the dichotomy of your espousing non-authoritarianism from an
>authoritarian platform.

***{Well, I guess that will teach me to never leave an implication
unstated, even when it seems obvious. :-) The implication, of course, was
that I do not agree that the statement of criticisms is authoritarian in
nature. Granted, there is an unstated suggestion that an action--i.e., the
modification of one's belief system--ought to be taken, but there is no
compulsion involved: the recipient of the criticism is free to reject it or
not, as he chooses. Hence he is in no sense subject to the authority of the
critic, and, indeed, cannot be so even in principle, since the needed
changes are in an area--his mind--to which the critic does not have access,
and thus he, the critic, cannot verify that they took place. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> If it works for you, fine, but that doesn't mean it'll work
>> >for everyone.
>>
>> ***{I beg to differ: ignoring irritating posts or putting them on filter
>> will, in fact, work for everyone, provided only that the individuals in
>> question are not, in fact, motivated by a desire to censor the statements
>> of others.
>
>
>---
>I don't believe that's true, on two levels.  First, since not everyone
>_chooses_ to use a filter or to ignore irritating posts, it won't work
>for everyone regardless of your "advice".

***{You ignore the fact that my statement was qualified. I said it would
work for everyone, *provided* they were not motivated by the desire to
censor others. --MJ}***

Second, your advice that
>everyone use a filter is tantamount to censorship inasmuch as if your
>advice were accepted universally Dennard would effectively be silenced.

***{I didn't suggest that everyone, or anyone, ignore Dennard. I suggested
that people ought to ignore irritating posts from people of Dennard's
ilk--i.e., posts from people who have repeatedly and unambiguously
demonstrated a refusal to focus on substance. Thus even if my suggestion
were universally implemented, Dennard would only be ignored by those who
shared my opinion of him. On the other hand, those who thought some his
ideas were interesting and that his typical responses were substantive,
would *not* ignore him, even if they agreed completely with my suggestion.

What this means is that the advantage of acting as individuals, rather than
collectively, lies in the benefits of human diversity. When we act as
individuals, even if we are all acting on the same principle, the result is
an atmosphere of openness and tolerance from which no one is excluded. When
we act collectively, on the other hand, the result is intolerance and
exclusivity, because in order to act collectively, we must act through some
instrumentality such as Bill Beaty, which will apply that principle in the
context of a single, monolithic value system and worldview. The inevitable
result is actions such as we have just seen--to wit: the forcible ejection
of an individual from the group.

Bottom line: I find the intolerance and exclusivity that is an essential
part of collective action to be far, far more offensive than David Dennard,
and I am deeply troubled by the tendency that I see developing here.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Another really negative aspect of ignore-ance is the capabilty for a
>deranged individual to grow in power because of non-criticism.  I
>believe a large part of Hitler's "success" was due to his actions being
>actively ignored (yeah, yeah, I know... You can't "actively" ignore.)
>and _not_ critcised during the early years of his campaign against
>humankind.

***{Well said, and I thoroughly agree. However, you forget the context of
the suggestion: we were discussing a person whom we have all been putting
up with for roughly two years. During that two years, most of the people
here *did* criticize Dennard's opinions, and I daresay that most of those
who did so had the same frustrating experience that I did: the responses
were couched in insubstantial terms that were impossible to pin down, and
the thrust of substantive criticisms was ignored. Therefore this situation
is in no way analogous to the non-criticism of Hitler by "good Germans" in
the thirties. Dennard was criticized repeatedly here and was repeatedly
shot down in flames. Result: few, if any, readers of this group could have
retained respect for his scientific judgments, even though some doubtlessly
liked him and hoped that he might be onto something. Indeed, that state of
affairs is what led to the problem: Dennard was, in fact, down in flames,
but he kept rattling on as if he didn't notice, and ultimately the
continued rattling proved irriting to some, and led to the recent spate of
blubbering and caterwauling, which then precipitated intervention by Bill
Beaty. Bottom line: my suggestion that people of Dennard's ilk ought to be
put on filter or simply ignored, taken in context, does *not* imply that
they should not be criticized, because the only way you can determine that
a person refuses to substantively respond to criticism is by criticising
him and seeing how he responds. :-) --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> This situation, you see, is just another manifestation of the
>> old paradox, wherein people who bitch about books or movies or television
>> programs, are not satisfied when told to simply not read those books, or to
>> not watch the movies or the television programs. The reason they are not
>> satisfied is that they are in fact not motivated by a reaction to
>> "offensive" material, but by a desire to prevent others from having access
>> to that material. --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>I don't believe it's a paradox in the true sense of the word; it's
>either hypocrisy or just the inability of some to fail to realize that
>what _they_ consider offensive isn't necessarily universally offensive.

***{I agree. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> >Having, by your own admission, not read most of Dennard's stuff you're
>> >not really (IMHO) in a position to issue edicts about how he should have
>> >been handled.
>>
>> ***{I'm stating my opinions, just as you are stating yours. Hence if that
>> constitutes the issuance of "edicts," then you are once again tarred by
>> your own brush. --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>Perhaps, but my opinions were formed after having read Dennard for some
>time. Yours, since you haven't read much of Dennard, are somewhat arbitrary.

***{Incorrect. If you will check the archives, you will find that I
attempted to interact with Dennard on a number of occasions, early on, and
extensively criticized some of his ideas. It was only after it became
apparent that discussions with him were pointless, that I began to ignore
most of his posts. The difference between us is not that you formed a more
accurate opinion about him than I did, but rather that you continued to try
to deal with him long after the time when, by rights, you should have seen
that it was pointless. Result: you frustrated the hell out of yourself,
while I did not. :-) --MJ}***

>---
>
>> >I think Bill's handling of the situation was excellent and exemplary of
>> >his usual policy of non-intervention.
>
>> ***{He handled it well, if you grant that it needed to be handled at all.
>> I, however, do not believe it needed to be handled. What Bill needs to
>> recognize is that he has a simple choice: ignore the crybabies, or submit
>> to their censorship of this group. Instead, he is attempting to find middle
>> ground. Ultimately, however, he will discover that it does not exist.
>
>
>---
>Not true. The middle ground exists as a line which one servos about,
>(much like the line between Yin and Yang) and Bill has many more choices
>available than just two.

***{Bill sees himself as the instrumentality of collective action, but does
not seem to realize what a blunt instrumentality that is. As noted above,
collective action in matters of this sort is *inherently* intolerant and
exclusivist, by comparison to individual action, precisely because
collective action proceeds by means of a single instrumentality and, thus,
is a manifestation of a single value system and worldview. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> (Every village needs an idiot, and Dennard was ours.
>
>
>---
>Yes, he was, but I disagree that every village "needs" an idiot.
>---
>
>
>> If anything, I will
>> miss him. His presence here proved, for all to see, that this was a forum
>> that was truly open to all. And his absence, I'm afraid, signifies the
>> approach of a heavy-handed regime that will crush the life out of this
>> group, and drive the most interesting opinions elsewhere.) --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>There's no reason for you to miss him, since he has an email address, a
>website which you can access, and a list to which you can subscribe.

***{I shall miss him *here*. I will not miss his ideas or opinions,
because, as noted, they were non-substantive. What I will miss is the
atmosphere of tolerance and openness which his presence signified. --MJ}***

>
>As I understand it, his presence here (as is all of ours) was subject to
>a very loose conformance to a set of rules which Bill set up in order to
>keep this list from degenerating into a name-calling non-technical
>free-for-all.

***{Dennard was an extremely mild manifestation of that, by usenet
standards, as I am sure you are well aware. I would describe him more as
petulant than as verbally abusive. (You, in fact, seem more inclined to be
verbally abusive than he did, if you will pardon me for saying so.) --MJ}***

Had you followed Dennard's posts you would have seen that
>toward the end he (Dennard) was clearly out of control.

***{Actually, I did begin to read his stuff again toward the end, once the
blubbering and caterwauling began, to see what it was all about. (I archive
all vortex posts, so it was a simple matter to go back and see what touched
it all off.) Indeed, if you will check, you will see that I stuck in my two
cents worth a couple of times when it was going on. Nothing in what I read
altered my assessment that this was all a tempest in a teapot, and that the
preferred solution was for those who objected to Dennard to simply ignore
him or put him on filter. --MJ}***

If a stranger
>rang your doorbell and you invited him (her) into your home and
>introduced them to guests whom you admired and respected and then that
>stranger became obnoxious and abusive to your other guests what would
>you do?  Invite them over again and again?
>
>I wouldn't, but maybe that's just me.  I only have four cheeks.

***{Your analogy is not parallel, since if he were in my home, neither I
nor my guests would have the option of ignoring him or putting him on
filter. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>
>> >I believe when people like Dennard come along and actively disrupt a
>> >reasonably civilized group for no other reason than self aggrandisement,
>> >and if enough members of the group complain, then something should be
>> >done to minimize the disruption.
>
>---
>> ***{The issue is not whether that should be done, but how. Specifically,
>> should the intervention of a heavy-handed "moderator" be required, or
>> should the various persons who were irritated by Dennard's posts take
>> action *as individuals*, by simply placing him on filter or ceasing to read
>> his stuff? In my view, freedom requires a population whose members prefer
>> to act individually rather than collectively, and when collective action is
>> preferred, freedom becomes impossible. Such a principle does not merely
>> apply to nations, but also to voluntary associations such as this one.
>> --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>Total freedom, then, according to you, is reverting to an anarchistic
>jungle mentality.

***{Nope. In fact, in the jungle, collective action is the norm, with all
the intolerance, exclusivity, and suppression of dissent which that
entails. It is only in the context of civilization and individualism that
an atmosphere openness, tolerance, and non-suppression of dissent can
prevail. --MJ}***

>
>Fine. I don't have a problem with that, and Bill set up the rules for
>vortexb so that there would be no rules there. ;^)

***{Yes, Bill is very talented and creative in his quest for middle ground,
and his idea of creating vortex b was an unarguably brilliant attempt to
make such an approach work. He is, by far, the best discussion group
moderator I have encountered, and none of the criticisms I have been
leveling here should be interpreted as suggesting otherwise. My objections
are not to the benign oversight he has exercise over these groups in the
past, but to the direction in which he has recently seemed to be heading.
--MJ}***

>
>But on _this_ list there _are_ rules, and as long as everyone here
>_individually_ agrees to play by the rules what's wrong with that?
>You're doing it, no?

***{I repeat: I object to the principle of collective action and to the
intolerance and exclusivity that is *unavoidably* attached to collective
action, rather than to the specific instrumentality (Bill Beaty) by which
collective action manifests itself in this group. --MJ}***

>
>But, when someone like Dennard comes along and brings a baseball bat to
>what was a soccer game and tells everyone on the field that they're
>playing the wrong game and that they need to be playing baseball, then
>it's time for Dennard to take a hike.

***{I take that to mean he runs out onto the field with his baseball bat
and interferes with the course of the soccer game. If so, then you have
once again chosen an analogy that is not parallel to the case under
discussion, since his physical presence on the field would interfere with
the playing of soccer, whereas his submission of posts to a cyberspace
forum does not mean those posts have to be present on the computers of
individuals who read that group, or that those who choose to not filter
them out must read them. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> >Bill gave Dennard every chance (and since it's Bill's list and there
>> >_are_ rules, he gets to give chances if he wants to!
>>
>> ***{Of course it is his list, and he is free to run it well, or wreck it,
>> depending on the choices he makes. He is not, however, free to take actions
>> without generating consequences. --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>With all due respect, Mitchell, (may I call you Mitchell?)

***{Mitch is friendly, Mitchell is not indicative of an emotional state,
and Jones is cold. Ask yourself what you want to convey, and choose
accordingly. --MJ}***

Puh-leaseee
>spare us (me) that platitude!^)
>
>Like, the last time I was free to take action I refrained and I'm not
>sure I'll ever recover from the consequences. ;^)

***{Platitude it may be, but it is relevant. Everything Bill does or fails
to do affects the composition of the group, by influencing the types of
people who will subscribe and unsubscribe. Right now, because he has
muddled his way through the crises brilliantly, there is a high level of
knowledge, intelligence, and diversity in the group, and it is very nearly
an ideal forum for the discussion of anomalous science. No law of nature,
however, requires that state of affairs to continue. He needs to be
intensely aware, on an ongoing basis, that the "platitude" does in fact
strictly apply. One wrong step, and he will destroy that which he has so
painstakingly created. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>
>> ) to "straighten
>> >up", and yet Dennard fought tooth and nail every step of the way to
>> >remain a spoiled brat.
>> >
>> >I'm glad Dennard's gone from here, and If I want to read him I know
>> >where he is.
>
>
>> ***{It is a matter of indifference to me whether he goes or stays, if his
>> choice is freely made. As I said, I considered most of his stuff to be a
>> waste of time, and didn't read it. I am, however, disturbed by the forcible
>> manner of his removal from this group, and by what it may signify. The
>> reason: I dislike censorious crybabies far more than I dislike
>> simple-minded idiots, and I fear that Bill is on the verge of giving in to
>> their unrelenting pressures. --MJ}***
>
>
>---
>I don't think you need to worry, since (from the view of past
>performance) it's not likely that Bill will give in to the unrelenting
>pressure of simple-minded idiots.

***{Hopefully so, but only time will tell. I have, sad to say, witnessed
many instances in my life where individuals performed brilliantly for
awhile but, not fully comprehending what led to their success, they then
miserably crashed and burned. Success is not an entitlement, however much
it may sometimes seem to be. In fact, those who fail to be intensely aware
of the conditions that led to their success, and who as a consequence fail
to nurture those conditions, are guaranteed to eventually fail. This is a
principle that does not merely apply to individuals, but to nations and to
civilizations as well. --MJ}***

>---
>
>
>> >Strangely enough, he's got total access to vortexb but I haven't heard a
>> >peep from him over there.  He's probably off somewhere blubbering and
>> >stomping his feet or waiting for the expiration period to end so he can
>> >go pick up his gun.
>> >
>> >BTW, this probably should have been posted to "b", but I don't know if
>> >you're subscribed and I consider unsolicited emails to be intrusive, so
>> >here we are!
>
>
>> ***{It's and important subject, and is better discussed on a list that
>> Dennard isn't reading. After all, I would not feel comfortable referring to
>> him as an idiot, if he hadn't been booted off of this list. :-) --MJ}***
>
>---
>So much for total freedom...
>As long as he can't hear you you can say what you want to without fear
>of reprisal?

***{No. I simply find that it is better to not introduce pejoratives into
discussions. I find that such behavior is destabilizing, and causes
fruitful discussions to degenerate into useless flame wars. --MJ}***

>
>Barf.

***{Good example. In the normal course of events, that would be my cue to
flame you down to a cinder, and all hope for a substantive discussion would
be lost. However, I am above such silliness. Like Melville's mountain
eagle, I am higher than the birds upon the plain, even if they soar. :-)
--MJ}***

>---
>
>John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 22:09:41 2000
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Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:06:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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>> I had the same effect from a high-current [DC] experiment.
>>  It came from a wire spiraling around the suspension
>>  twine. It appeared to cause anomalous pendulum effects
>>  on a suspended balance, but after I examined the setup
>>  carefully I was (sadly) able to confirm the motion to be
>>  from this rather than the effect I hoped to create.
>>  I did confirm this by rerouting the current in a number of
>>  ways, whereby the setup ceased any detectable movement.
>
>The twine effect is also how the "mysterious magnetic spinner"  works.
>See www.darlabs.com .
>How much current were you using? JLN's circuit doesn't have enough of a
>current draw to cause such a massive length contraction.

***{The elastic modulus of the twisted pair wiring will determine how much
downward force is required to produce a 14 cm increase in length. The way
to determine that would be to turn off the current, and hang enough weight
on the thing to stretch it by 14 cm. Depending on the amount of weight
required, it might or might not be plausible that such an amount of force
could be supplied by repulsion between the twisted wires. (For what it's
worth, it has been my experience that the elastic modulus of materials that
have been twisted into a spiral tends to be very, very low. Whether that
will prove to be the case here, of course, remains to be seen.) --MJ}***

>
>> Moments like that tend to incline one to waste time
>>  watching TV rather than exploring obscure references
>>  to unconventional forces. Fortunately, television is
>>  so boring only a few seconds exposure inspires new effort.
>
>I suppose it depends on the television program ;)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 23:17:59 2000
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:22:07 +0700
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*-----Original Message-----
*From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
*Sent: 2000 September 24, Sunday 00:51
*To: vortex-l eskimo.com
*Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
*
*
*At 8:11 PM 9/23/0, xplorer the name less wrote:
*>I tried to get water-filled tubing
*>(pure as well as saline)
*> to act as electromagnets and transformers.
*>I even tried using a water pump to circulate
*> charged water, but nothing happened.
*>I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current
*> to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way)
*>It simply would not work -
*> no detectable em field whatsoever.
*>I had hoped it would, as I have applications...
*>
*>I think they failed due to the
*> large diameter tubing (5mm)
*> but perhaps not...
*>
*>The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to
*> like magnetic fields.
*
*
*Did you try my earlier suggestion of measuring the resistance of the water
*primary and then paralleling it with copper coils (winding the copper coils
*over the water tubing primary) and adding a resistor to make a similar
*resistance?  It could simply be that you have made a poorly coupling
*transformer with a high impedance primary.  Is your secondary coil water
*also?  If so, you could replace or parallel that with copper also.
*

The primary was low impedance -
 ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
 around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.
The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
 testing it at various levels of salinity through
 to saturation.

The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
 330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.
I was inside the water tubing primary.

I could not get any magnetic effects either,
 using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.

I may have something wrong with the setup -
 I would certainly like to hear someone else
 replicate this.

regards


Paul E. Anderson

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*-----Original Message-----
*From: Michael T Huffman [mailto:knuke lcia.com]
*Sent: 2000 September 24, Sunday 00:35
*To: vortex-l eskimo.com
*Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
*
*
*xplorer wrote:
*>I tried to get water-filled tubing
*>(pure as well as saline)
*> to act as electromagnets and transformers.
><
*
*Ahoy There!
*
*I don't know exactly what to think about this.  On the one hand, I'm
*disappointed, on the other I'm fascinated.

It is intriguing, but depressing to run these experiments.

*  Theoretically, I would think
*that it should work.  I can also think of ways to perhaps make it work, but
*I'm primarily intrigued at finding out why it did not work for you.

I only tried 50 Hz ac, it may be there are fields at higher frequencies,
 but I don't have the equipment for that at this time.
Perhaps a deceptive assumption, but I am guessing that without the ability
 to get even a DC current to generate a magnetic field, the chances of
 seeing em activity at higher freqs is rather remote.
If I get my signal generator built, I would like to try this again
 at freqs up to 50 MHz.

* There
*could be something interesting happening here that has other applications.
*Thanks for the comeback, and I will continue to look into this.  Just for
*the sake of this particular application, do you know of a cheap
*and safe way to transform high voltage surges?

Transform them inductively ?

regards,
Paul E. Anderson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 23 23:41:26 2000
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From: "John Collins" <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
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<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Even though Mr. Dennard has left us he continues to occupy considerable 
bandwidth on this forum.  Isn't it time to let him go?


I feel somewhat guilty as I think I acted as a catalyst in provoking his 
departure.  I did at the time have a certain empathy with his passion.  I just 
wanted him to shut up about it, but I should have known that his 
singleminded view would prevent him seeing the mote in his own eye.  Now 
he's gone can we not get back to the interesting aspects that formerly 
occupied this forum?  I rarely contribute, but as a lurker, I do enjoy the thrust 
and parry of debate on this forum.  It would be good to continue to read the 
comments  with an occasional foray into speech (metaphorically speaking) - 
but I hope that I don't produce such a strong reaction next time.


John Collins

<nofill>
John Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 00:31:01 2000
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Interesting paper, especially as how could relate to cold fusion
experiments

http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/expectations/

steve opelc



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 00:57:57 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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Have any of you checked out the actual setup on Naudin's site? 
There's a scope trace from a laser beam on a photocel being tripped 
by a thing on the bottom of the antenna rig (pendulum). If that moved 
FIVE INCHES the whole laser-thingamabob-photocell deal would get 
completely messed up.

I find it hard to believe that somehow gravity's effect on the thing 
is being altered, but stretching the suspension that far to get the 
numbers to fit stretches something else even further.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 01:14:27 2000
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Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:10:33 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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Horace wrote:


>I don't follow freenrg, so what I say may have been covered,  It seems
>reasonable that some substances may outgas upon acoustic stimulation, and
>readsorb the gas over a brief period following.   One candiate for such a
>gas is ordinary water vapor.  To check this hypothesis all that is required
>is to seal the test tube, perferably by melting the glass.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

I could almost buy that gas could get out of the sealed top of the 
vial somehow,but not that it goes back in as soon as the zapping 
stops. This does work well for CF skeptics who have all kinds of 
leaky vessels with helium sneaking in backwards out of the 
atmosphere, etc. But I can't imagine how the same amount of water 
vapor gets sucked back in through the still sealed lid and back down 
into the bentonite or whatever over the next few minutes until it's 
right back to the levels where it started. I don't think this is a 
logical objection given the setup used and the results obtained.

All the same, I also think the vials should be made out of pyrex 
tubing and sealed exactly as you suggest. And I checked out eBay for 
ultrasonic cleaners, but they seem to be getting good $$ for the 
things right now. If I can find time, I might try something with 
simple acoustics from powered computer speakers. They're annoyingly 
loud when playing tones from software signal generators. If there's 
any effect, that's convenient because you can try different waveforms 
and frequencies, white noise, pink, sine, etc.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 01:25:18 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Crackpot....
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	My 2 Cents:

	I LIKE crackpots!

	AND:  I do not consider Newman a crackpot....  he may have a way
of saying things which bothers some people ... BUT:
	He is one of a VERY few who is doing work with very long wire set
ups.  Is he getting some off the beaten track results...?
	You bet!

	I have not seen any attempt at a real replication ... yet...
	I have seen partial replication, or replication of
	"This is as big of a coil as I want to make... I can't spend the
time and money to REALLY wind a huge coil... go to visit Mr. Newman and
attempt to replicate?
	Not to disparagethe partials....  
	I do stand out for a big..WHY ... would you shoot at something but
not replicate ...

			J



On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> > However, I do think it may help preserve the nature of the list and
> > avoid confusion as to what the list is about if the intended subject
> > matter, what it is and examples of what it isn't, were included with the
> > sign-on (rules)  message, not so rigid as rules, but more as guidelines
> > or an introduction for prospective members.
> 
> Good idea.  If exclusion of "unwanted" threads occurs, the definition of
> "unwanted" needs to be stated far more clearly.  Flamewars and non-science
> are obvious.  Crackpotism has been a problem (Newman, Meyer, and anyone
> looking for publicity rather than for thoughful conversation.)  Mr. 
> Dennard certainly took laudable actions in a crackpot topic: he abandoned
> secrecy, an he wasn't after financial backing.  
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 01:39:19 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: RF Pendulum
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>Have any of you checked out the actual setup on Naudin's site?
>There's a scope trace from a laser beam on a photocel being tripped
>by a thing on the bottom of the antenna rig (pendulum). If that moved
>FIVE INCHES the whole laser-thingamabob-photocell deal would get
>completely messed up.

***{As I pointed out yesterday, we can't know whether that is true until we
receive some detail concerning the dimensions of Naudin's device. If, for
example, the laser target--the red gadget on the bottom--is more that 14 cm
long, then your speculation may not be true. Thus this situation, at
present, reduces to a simple question: are we so eager to declare this to
be a physical anomaly that we are willing to assume things that are not in
evidence, or not? I can't speak for others, but I am unwilling to do that.
--MJ}***

>
>I find it hard to believe that somehow gravity's effect on the thing
>is being altered, but stretching the suspension that far to get the
>numbers to fit stretches something else even further.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 01:52:55 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer wrote:

>The primary was low impedance -
> ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
> around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.

What kind of mineral water?  Why mineral water?  Why not make your own salt
water for example?

That 50 cm is the major diameter of the coil, right?  The aquarium tubing
is less than a 1/4 inch, a few mm, in inner diameter?

Sounds like high impedence to me.  Did you MEASURE the current?


>The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
> testing it at various levels of salinity through
> to saturation.
>
>The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
> 330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.
>I was inside the water tubing primary.


OK, so you do not have a completed magnetic circuit, thus you have a weak
coupling too, as suspected.


>
>I could not get any magnetic effects either,
> using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.


You will not get a measureable effect if there is an insignificant amount
of current going through the primary coil.


>
>I may have something wrong with the setup -
> I would certainly like to hear someone else
> replicate this.


You need to provide your OWN CONTROL, as would someone replicating.  That
control would consist of the 1 to 16 coils of copper primary corresponding
to and wrapped with the water tubing.  All you need to do then is add a
resistance in series with the copper primary (control) coil so as to
decrease its resistance to the measured resistance of your water primary.
In that way you should obtain the same results, no matter which primary you
use, at least at lower frequencies.  More careful replication of coil
geometry is required for a control coil at higher frequencies, because
current is carried mostly at the surface of HF coils.  You should see
effects at higher frequencies because the surface effect takes over,
reducing impedence for the large cross section water coil, and the coil
coupling will also become much better due to the higher frequency.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 02:57:35 2000
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         My 2 Cents:
> 
>         I LIKE crackpots!

In principle, yes. But sometimes it cost you much of time.


> 
>         AND:  I do not consider Newman a crackpot....  he may have a way
> of saying things which bothers some people ... BUT:
>         He is one of a VERY few who is doing work with very long wire set
> ups.  Is he getting some off the beaten track results...?
>         You bet!


Experimentation is wonderful. It is impossibe to observe or find something weird while experimenting with open mind an open eyes, and doing something other may have no tried.

But I one do not show any scientific property, it is useless for science.

Lack of proper description and proper results, it can be considered even as a raw material. A material can be examined and described, But Newman stuff not.

> 
>         I have not seen any attempt at a real replication ... yet...
>         I have seen partial replication, or replication of
>         "This is as big of a coil as I want to make... I can't spend the
> time and money to REALLY wind a huge coil... go to visit Mr. Newman and
> attempt to replicate?
>         Not to disparagethe partials....
>         I do stand out for a big..WHY ... would you shoot at something but
> not replicate ...
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 02:58:23 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Designing vortex-L
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At 6:18 PM 9/23/0, William Beaty wrote:

>And what ARE the vortex-L topics?  Not vortex energy.  More like
>"discussing the evidence for physical, chemical, and biological anomalies,
>and trying to replicate these experimentally."  That gets rid of any
>endless discussions of unsupported theories, and might produce fairly
>interesting conversations.  Perhaps theories to EXPLAIN known anomalies
>should fit in there somewhere too.  How about this as well: "The audience
>is a group of scientists, tech workers, and advanced amateurs."


This seems to be a good description of the principle line or mainstream of
vortex topics.  But there are many side issues that seem to occur without
objection, which I feel the need to highlight because I either find them
welcome or enjoy contributing to them.  One area of considerable relevance
is news on progress in conventional renewable energy, or new improved
application of energy, as in hybrid vehicles, and even more general news of
scientific advancements.  Even the printing of Robert Parks' views and
news, as anathemic as I often find them personally, I highly value and
appreciate, as I do Fred Sparber's, Hamdi Ucar's and others scouring of the
media and reporting on advancements of interest.  Summaries of current
articles from magazines and periodicals are often very informative and
relevant.

An area that might be more controversial is discussion of flaws in present
theories, even if purely theoretical, e.g. paradoxes, provided resolution
of the problem might lead to free energy devices.  Even discussion of
unproven or questionably proven energy related theories, like Mills', seem
OK too.

Lastly, and most controversial, is the arena of free energy device
speculation.  I personally thoroughly enjoy dumping, or watching others,
Like Fred Sparber or Lary Wharton dump possible free energy ideas into the
public domain, or if not publically - legally - at least publically in the
sense of putting the ideas into public awareness.  One or some of these
could end up being very productive ideas that benefit humanity.  To some
the process is purely useless speculation, but to others, this kind of
process is synergetic, and permits the list to be bigger than the sum of
its parts.  That synergy, in any of its various forms, is something I love
about internet,and this list in particular.

A topic or issue that seems to have a high value and obtains a good
response from the list is any call for scientific information or
assistance, especially locating hard to find materials, or techniques.

I think all of the above, and many scientific issues not considered above,
are worthy of some bandwidth, and have been discussed, without objection,
on vortex.  I think a problem arises not from topics like the above, but
from endless and repetitive "pitching" of any specific idea or product,
absent anything new happening, any new development.  This endless
"pitching" criteria, however, could not be applied to Vince Cockeram's H2K
Discharge experiments, for example, which happened to also go on
sporadically for the last two years.  The reason it would not apply is that
Vince Cockeram's H2K Discharge experiment posts were reports of experiments
in progress, and the threads were essentially news of his progress, along
with helping comments and open discussion from the vortex community.
Vince's efforts and posts were all to the good, in my opinion.

I think it is a tough call to sort out topic categories in a rigorous
manner, and that may even not be possible, but it should be possible to
obtain consensus on some of the above in at least a fuzzy or nebulous or
imprecise way.

There are some topic areas that might prove even more controversial, like
the once broached issue of the relevance or appropriateness of protracted
debate of the philosophy or ethics of science.

All just food for thought.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 03:12:42 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Designing vortex-L
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Perhaps another perspective is to focus on why vortex was formed in the
first place - to avoid the caustic environemt offered in the public usenet
groups.  Perhaps one critical aspect of vortex is, or was, a focus on being
helpful and contributing, as opposed to being argumentative.  Vortex is not
a place for one-ups-manship, or axe grinding, but the rules already pretty
much already say that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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I just did a *very* quick 'n dirty experiment on a closed plastic 
bottle of kaolin clay powder with a 6khz sawtooth signal from 
speakers in air and got what would appear to be a positive result. 
The fact that makes me suspicious that it might have actually been a 
positive was that the weight slowly returned afterwards like Nick 
Reiter has been reporting. That seems very strange.

I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if this turns out to be an 
artifact, but I think it could be an experiment worth trying under 
better controlled conditions. For simplicity and low cost, it's right 
in there with Fred's whirling resistor. Details posted on freenrg.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 07:34:06 2000
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Sun's Specs:
> 
> Radius,   6.96E8 meters

> Possible Heat Sources:
> 
> 1,  Hot Fusion
> 
> 2, Cold Fusion
> 
> 3, Hydrino Formation
> 
> 4,  ZPE Heating
> 
> 5, Gravitational Pressure
> 
> 6,  Negative Viscosity Heating
> 
> Any or All of these could explain the "Missing Neutrinos".
> 

But you left out the real source, direct "unwrapping" of heavy elements
into
energy by thermal decomposition.  See

http://www.interpres.cz/sr/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm
http://www.interpres.cz/sr/rs/cwkvk/sunpart2.htm

http://www.interpres.cz/sr/rs/cwkvk/
http://www.interpres.cz/sr/dbl/index.htm

Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix

-- 
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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Paul writes:
>* There
>*could be something interesting happening here that has other applications.
>*Thanks for the comeback, and I will continue to look into this.  Just for
>*the sake of this particular application, do you know of a cheap
>*and safe way to transform high voltage surges?
>
>Transform them inductively ?
>
>regards,
>Paul E. Anderson

Hi Paul,

>From reading your response, I can see that we are talking apples, and
aquariums here, but that's OK.  Yes, I just am interested being able to
handle the surge from a plasma ball dumping its energy into a circuit.  I am
assuming that the initial dump would be high voltage, and that is why I am
thinking along the lines of a liquid core, inductive transformer that has
both a copper primary and secondary.  If you know of anything that could do
the trick, I'd appreciate the info.

BTW, I think Vortex must be dropping messages again, because I have no idea
what you are talking about.  Do you have an URL for the device that you are
trying to replicate?   From what I could glean, you are piping water out of
an aquarium and wrapping the tubing around another liquid core transformer.
If you are using any kind of pump in the aqaurium tubing (like an aquarium
pump), then Horace would be correct, that you probably don't have a circuit.
Most of the aquarium pumps that I have seen are the diaphram type, and there
would be discrete water chambers that would cut the circuit.

Knuke
 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 07:54:14 2000
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Steve,
You have made in interesting point in relating the paper noted
below to cold fusion.  I would like to suggest that the only
relationship between the two occurs because of the false
understanding of cold fusion presently popular.

The paper makes the point that people, including scientists, see
only what they expect to see and, when experiments are designed,
the outcome is influenced by the design of the approach as much as
by nature its self.  With this I totally agree.  However, just how
does this relate to cold fusion?

It is the popular notion that cold fusion is an anomaly only in the
minds of a few confused individuals and that the effect has not
been duplicated by "general" science.  If this notion were true, I
would have to agree that the paper had a direct bearing on the
subject.  However, the notion is not true.

The cold fusion effect and the related patterns have been seen by
hundreds of people working in laboratories all over the world. It
has been duplicated many times by people who have mastered the
required techniques, just like the situation that applies to all
natural phenomenon.  In addition, the effect is no longer small.
Amounts of heat in excess of many watts have been detected using
devices sensitive to milliwatts.  The effect is no longer in the
mind of the beholder.  What is true is that the known information
is not acknowledged by the general scientist so that the popular
notion continues to be believed and spread by ignorant people.

Regards,
Ed

sno wrote:

> Interesting paper, especially as how could relate to cold fusion
> experiments
>
> http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/expectations/
>
> steve opelc

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 10:32:18 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The effects of researchers expectations
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>Interesting paper, especially as how could relate to cold fusion
>experiments
>
>http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/expectations/
>
>steve opelc

***{Here is an excerpt from the above article that I found particularly
interesting:

"A man with advanced cancer was no longer responding to radiation
treatment. He was given a single injection of an experimental drug,
Krebiozen, considered by some at the time to be a 'miracle cure' (it has
since been discredited). The results were shocking to the patient's
physician, who stated that his tumors 'melted like snowballs on a hot
stove'. Later the man read studies suggesting the drug was ineffective, and
his cancer began to spread once more. At this point his doctor, acting on a
hunch, administered a placebo intravenously. The man was told that plain
water was a 'new, improved' form of Krebiozen. Again, his cancer shrank
away dramatically. Then he read in the newspapers the American Medical
Association's official pronouncement: Krebiozen was a worthless medication.
The man's faith vanished, and he was dead within days."

In my view, the most significant implications of the above are the
following: (a) it definitively proves that the immune system is capable of
controlling cancer; and (b) it definitively proves that fear impairs immune
system function. This man died, in other words, because he believed the
medical establishment's self-serving propaganda about the lethal nature of
untreated cancer. The poor fool believed he needed a *medicine* to survive,
and, because of that belief, he became utterly terrified as soon as he lost
confidence in the drug he was being given. That state of terror, in turn,
interfered with the functioning of his immune system, and ensured his quick
demise.

Bottom line: if you take pains to give your immune system the nutrition it
needs to function properly (for more information, see the alternative
health literature), and if you have confidence that it can do its job
*without* the assistance of physicians, then you should be cancer free
until such time as, due to advancing age, critical bodily functions begin
to shut down.

The above, of course, is merely my personal assessment of the situation.
Since your life may *literally* depend on the accuracy of that conclusion,
you are advised to think very, very carefully, before concluding that I am
either correct or incorrect. Caveat emptor.

--Mitchell Jones}***

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Mitchell Jones wrote:


> In the normal course of events, that would be my cue to
> flame you down to a cinder, and all hope for a substantive discussion would
> be lost. However, I am above such silliness. Like Melville's mountain
> eagle, I am higher than the birds upon the plain, even if they soar. :-)
> --MJ}***

---

I see we have widely divergent opinions about the thermal stability of
asbestos and the altitudes which eagles with singed wings can reach!^)

In any case, thanks for the interesting discourse, I enjoyed it. 

---

John Fields

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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> The primary was low impedance -
>  ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
>  around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.
> The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
>  testing it at various levels of salinity through
>  to saturation.
> 
> The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
>  330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.
> I was inside the water tubing primary.
> 
> I could not get any magnetic effects either,
>  using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.
> 
> I may have something wrong with the setup -
>  I would certainly like to hear someone else
>  replicate this.
> 
> regards
> 
> Paul E. Anderson

I know of no reason why an H2O conductor should not produce magnetic field
when it passes a current. The problem is that the H2O is such a poor
electrical conductor, even with salt dissolved to saturation, that the Q =
inductive reactance / resistance is extremely low. Thus, inductive and
magnetic effects are likely to be very small. The induced emf will be very
small. You need to measure the secondary with a very sensitive
instrument---which means that you must also guard against eectrostatic
coupling. By the same token, magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) effects in H2O are
very weak, and water applications of MHD are exceedingly inefficient.

Are you sure you passed about 5 Amp through that tube? You must have really
been applying a large voltage to it. 

Unrelated, but interesting fact: Water solutions in plastic tubes are used
to make high-heat-capacity resistors for high voltage and energy absorbing 
applications. It is a rather widely known technique. I used it to make a
voltage divider to measure MV pulses. I also used my own design of a
capacitive probe. It is always good to have at least two independent
measurements and a healthy dose of skepticism when doing an experiment,
especially in view of Rupert Sheldrake's paper.




=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 21:36:36 2000
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Hi Nick and all,

Thomas Townsend Brown assumed that the inertial mass was not effected the
same as the gravitational mass, but he apparently did not attempt to test
this.

Brown also reported that some materials also lost weight or generated a
propulsive effect when polarized by a high voltage.

What if the inertial mass is also effected ?   

It would seem that we then have means for a true space drive propulsion
system.  It would simply be a matter of pushing against a dynamically
variable mass when it was most massive and pulling on it when it was
least massive.

Perhaps this is related to the Woodward Effect see "The Quantum Cavorite
Page at:
http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html

Woodward claims his effect is direct result of relativity effects
(E=MC^2) but the effect that Nick is observing seems to be orders of
magnitude greater.

The energy for 1 milligram mass change = 0.001 grams x 9e16 = 9e13 joules
= 90 trillion watt-seconds 
= 25 million kilowatt-hours = 25 thousand megawatt-hours

I don't think Nick's ultrasonic cleaner is that energetic !!!

Perhaps the gravitational mass loss in the powders can be stimulated
electrically also.  Perhaps by pulses like the enigmatic "kineto-baric"
effect of the German inventor named R.G. Zinsser who demonstrated a
gravity effect in Toronto in 1981, "Mechanical Energy from Anisotropic
Gravitational Fields", First International Symposium on Non-Conventional
Energy Technology.

But first others need to verify the effect with vibrations like Nick.  
This could be a truly important anomaly discovered by T. T. Brown and
ignored until Nick rediscovered it.

Tim



> As Nick wrote:
> 
> >    Apparently, in 1973 or so, Brown attempted to apply for a
> > patent on a discovery he had made with certain refractory and
> > rare earth materials.  In essence, he had discovered that some
> > materials, in a granular or nano-particle form, will lose some
> > of their gravitational mass when excited by vibration and
> > interparticle friction.  They become temporarily lighter, this
> > change in weight going away with a period of about 30 minutes
> > or so.    The document is called "Method for Producing
> > Gravitationally Anomalous Materials" and it may be viewed as a
> > .pdf document at: http://www.soteria.com/brown/info/patents/gr
> > avity.pdf

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Sep 24 23:49:18 2000
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Subject: Re: CO2 Pressurized Electrolysis Cell for Hydrogen Storage as Methanol
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For those that have access to a cylinder of CO2 (~ 600 Psig  room temperature)
a High Pressure Cylindrical Electrolysis Cell made from Stainless Pipe with a
concentric anode or cathode made from a stainless rod (or smaller diameter pipe)
filled with water and pressurized with CO2 might act as a means to Hydrogenate
CO2 to Formic Acid (HCOOH) , Formaldehyde (CH2O), or Methanol (CH3OH):

1, 2 CO2 aq  + 2 H2O --->  2 H+  +   2 HCO3-

2, (at the cathode) 2 H+  + 2 e  --->  2  H

3,  CO2 aq +  2  H   --->  HCOOH aq

4, HCOOH aq + 2 H --->   CH2O aq  + H2O

5,  CH2O aq + 2 H --->  CH3OH aq

Overall: CO2  (44 lbs)  +  3 H2 (6 lbs) ---> CH3OH (32 lbs, 4.85 gal.) + H2O (18 lbs)

Figuring 24 kw-hr per lb of Hydrogen = 144 kw-hr. At $.05/kw-hr = $1.50/ gal of Methanol.

OTOH, for powering a Fuel Cell the Methanol can be reacted with water to release H2:

CH3OH + H2O ---->   CO2 + 3 H2

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 01:11:32 2000
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:10:42 +0100
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Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's  Stupidity
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>At 08:05 AM 9/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>>Sept. 22, 2,000
>>
>>Vortex,
>>
>>The current Discover magazine issue is celebrating its twentieth year as
>>a publication of "Mickey Mouse", so to speak.
>>In claiming the particular issue as a "special collector's issue",

This sounds like a classic of stupidity


>>it
>>has articles of twenty notables in subjects such as Twenty ways the
>>world could end,

The world will change, it will not end


>>species we may lose, young scientists to watch, things
>>that will not change, and so forth. There is one titled twenty of the
>>greatest blunders in science in the last twenty years. And Cold Fusion
>>(as Very Cold Fusion) is listed as one of them.

I'll have to see if the library has a copy of this rag so I can see 
what other "blunders" are listed.


>>It gives reference to
>>Park's 'Voodoo Science' covering CF and some words of Marc Abrahams of
>>'Annals of Improbable Research.

Parks has struck again. Is the "Annals" a publication of the Skeptics 
Society? Otto Schmitt, who bent spoons with Uri Geller, always 
resented them sending him complimentary copies of their magazine.

>>
>>The pity of the short paragraphs (the whole thing is a pity) are it
>>includes remarks, one of which is:  "The problem is, no other scientists
>>have been able to reproduce their results --- and not for lack of
>>trying". This is is reference to Pons & Fleischmann fusion effect.


Is this stupidity or conspiracy? This brings to mind something that I 
have been thinking about. We've all heard stories of repression of FE 
technology. Joe Newman's battle with the PTO comes to mind. Was that 
stupidity on Joe's part, or conspiracy on the government's part. Now 
Randall Mill's problems. Was that his trying to get too many claims? 
or repression on the government's part. For all my trying I couldn't 
come up with a FE machine, even if my life depended on it. Can any of 
you Vortexians do it?

>
>
>
>     Perhaps one of the common characteristics of such
>pathological criticism is: failure to actually read the literature
>and/or contact those doing the investigations.
>   [Many have tried to get such low-grade "reviewers" and
>pseudo-scientists to read the literature ..... tried and failed. ]

Even worse, an open minded researcher such as myself couldn't get a 
job writing for those rags to save his life.


>
>No doubt, Discover magazine would have also been against
>"hand-washing", with a citation of "Voodoo Surgical Practices"
>which would have attacked Semmelweiss for suggesting
>hand-washing before the delivering of babies.   ;-)X

Brilliant observation Mitchell.


>
>     Thanks for the heads-up, Akira.
>
>          Mitchell Swartz

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try second test. Measure extent of the magnetic field around your primary coil
outside of the water coil and then inside it. I did this same experiment
earlier this year with 12v 2a d.c. (fluctuating) and got basically the results
described herein but I also tested the extent of the magnetic field and my
results seemed to indicate a strengthening of the field with the primary coil
inside the water coil. It was not conclusive but if accurate I postulated it
was caused by the paramagnetic effect of O2.
MJ

Michael Schaffer wrote:

> > The primary was low impedance -
> >  ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
> >  around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.
> > The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
> >  testing it at various levels of salinity through
> >  to saturation.
> >
> > The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
> >  330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.
> > I was inside the water tubing primary.
> >
> > I could not get any magnetic effects either,
> >  using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.
> >
> > I may have something wrong with the setup -
> >  I would certainly like to hear someone else
> >  replicate this.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Paul E. Anderson
>
> I know of no reason why an H2O conductor should not produce magnetic field
> when it passes a current. The problem is that the H2O is such a poor
> electrical conductor, even with salt dissolved to saturation, that the Q =
> inductive reactance / resistance is extremely low. Thus, inductive and
> magnetic effects are likely to be very small. The induced emf will be very
> small. You need to measure the secondary with a very sensitive
> instrument---which means that you must also guard against eectrostatic
> coupling. By the same token, magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) effects in H2O are
> very weak, and water applications of MHD are exceedingly inefficient.
>
> Are you sure you passed about 5 Amp through that tube? You must have really
> been applying a large voltage to it.
>
> Unrelated, but interesting fact: Water solutions in plastic tubes are used
> to make high-heat-capacity resistors for high voltage and energy absorbing
> applications. It is a rather widely known technique. I used it to make a
> voltage divider to measure MV pulses. I also used my own design of a
> capacitive probe. It is always good to have at least two independent
> measurements and a healthy dose of skepticism when doing an experiment,
> especially in view of Rupert Sheldrake's paper.
>
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 04:44:32 2000
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Hi,
   Did you know that many other countries already use water to run their
cars? I didn't! This link will explain it to you;
http://www.fuellesspower.com/water.html
Check out the whole range of products for SALE on the site.........
sigh
MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 06:24:47 2000
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Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:27:42 +0700
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><
*
*From reading your response, I can see that we are talking apples, and
*aquariums here, but that's OK.  Yes, I just am interested being able to
*handle the surge from a plasma ball dumping its energy into a
*circuit.  I am
*assuming that the initial dump would be high voltage, and that is why I am
*thinking along the lines of a liquid core, inductive transformer that has
*both a copper primary and secondary.  If you know of anything that could do
*the trick, I'd appreciate the info.
*
Mercury in a glass coil tube, perhaps, as a primary ?

*BTW, I think Vortex must be dropping messages again, because I have no idea
*what you are talking about.  Do you have an URL for the device that you are
*trying to replicate?

I'm not trying to replicate anything -
 I simply thought I would try to make a transformer
 using water in a tube instead of copper, as I have
 a use for inductive effects from piped salt water.
I seem to have made a bad assumption about this, however,
 or else I have improperly built the test setup

*  From what I could glean, you are piping water out of
*an aquarium and wrapping the tubing around another liquid core transformer.
*If you are using any kind of pump in the aquarium tubing (like an aquarium
*pump), then Horace would be correct, that you probably don't have
*a circuit.
*Most of the aquarium pumps that I have seen are the diaphragm type,
*and there
*would be discrete water chambers that would cut the circuit.

I used tap points in the water tubing -
 there was 5 amps flowing through the tubing
 so I am fairly certain the primary
 was a complete circuit.

*
*Knuke
*
*Michael T. Huffman
*Huffman Technology Company
*1121 Dustin Drive
*The Villages, Florida 32159
*(352)259-1276
*knuke LCIA.COM
*http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
*
*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 06:58:51 2000
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Paul writes:
>Mercury in a glass coil tube, perhaps, as a primary ?

Thanks again for comeback, this would work, or perhaps using ferrofluids for
the core.  For what I am thinking about doing, I thinking that a combination
of materials might work best.  The idea being that the initial high surge of
power from a plasmoid dump might be absorbed better if it was converted
partially into transformed electricity, and partially into kinetic energy
that ran around a fluid loop or ring core along with the electricity in the
electrolyte.  Perhaps a ferro fluid mixed with salt water might do or even
just very fine iron, gold, or nickle particles in water might do.  I'm
thinking cheap, and non-toxic too, of course, so mercury, despite its
excellent conductance would be one of my last choices.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 07:11:51 2000
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nasa puts aluminum particles in the fuel of the space shuttle...
MJ

Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Paul writes:
> >Mercury in a glass coil tube, perhaps, as a primary ?
>
> Thanks again for comeback, this would work, or perhaps using ferrofluids for
> the core.  For what I am thinking about doing, I thinking that a combination
> of materials might work best.  The idea being that the initial high surge of
> power from a plasmoid dump might be absorbed better if it was converted
> partially into transformed electricity, and partially into kinetic energy
> that ran around a fluid loop or ring core along with the electricity in the
> electrolyte.  Perhaps a ferro fluid mixed with salt water might do or even
> just very fine iron, gold, or nickle particles in water might do.  I'm
> thinking cheap, and non-toxic too, of course, so mercury, despite its
> excellent conductance would be one of my last choices.
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 08:02:16 2000
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Just took at look at  fuellesspower/Creative's site and it does seem a
classic Free Money
(if not FE) operation.

I am nonetheless intrigued by the mention of screen printing photovoltaic
circuitry at home.........anybody out there know if this has any factual
basis?


GB



ANGLOTEX sarl

Casablanca
                                                                Tel: 00 212 2
71 90 84 Fax:00 212 2 71 90 85

e-mail: anglotex iam.net.ma



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 08:45:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's  Stupidity
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Tom writes:
>This sounds like a classic of stupidity

Akira was more generous with his assessment, but I don't think that either
of you are correct.  It is almost impossible to become a writer for any
nationally and internationally circulated publication like Discover without
being an excellent researcher, and any researcher in any field by now has
had ample time and opportunity to see the pattern of events that are
unfolding before us today.

The Disney Conglomerate, as Akira has characterized them, is a powerful
financial concern with tentacles all over the world.  They, along with most
other large, multi-national corporations, are promoting a nice cartoon
picture of global capitalism while working literally to enslave the people
of the third world.  It was widely reported in the financial papers last
year, and even in the corporate owned press that when Ernst and Young, one
of the most respected accounting firms in the financial world, investigated
Disney's textile manufacturing operations on the Pac Rim, that they found 10
year old girls shackled to sewing machines, forced to work eighteen hours
per day under brutal and filthy conditions.

Michael Eisner, who was charging $15 per T-shirt here in the US, issued a
brief statement saying that it was more or less a cultural thing that he had
no control over, and the shock of the reality of the situation blew over.
The next cartoon came on, people were entertained by the animated colored
light show, and people forgot about the slavery.  They continued to buy
their kids Micky Mouse videos, toys and T-shirts, and planned their winter
vacations in Florida at the largest themepark hell in the world.

Nike and Gap have also been found to have been running similar operations
over there, and they both have significant property holdings tied up in
textile and shoe manufacturing facilities.  They dwarf in financial power
nearly every other indigenous industry in many countries on the Pac Rim.
Everybody here knows about it or has been officially informed, but try and
get anyone to say out loud that it is wrong, and you will see what America
has devolved into being.  A nation of slave owners in denial, and their
dwindling number of cowardly silent "employees".

Another operation that is taking place right now is the re-mapping of the
world by the oil companies with a new device that allows basically,
prospecting from the sky.  The device is a transducer based torsion field
detector that can find fissures in the Earth's crust, which are where oil
companies are now drilling.  The effectiveness of this technology is the
reason that we have seen the estimates of the global oil field capacity
double within the last two years.  The oil field capacity will continue to
increase as more areas are mapped out, and more oil fields are discovered.
The technology has opened up a new era of global oil wildcatting that will
thwart every effort to put an alternative fuel vehicle on the road, despite
all the appeasement rhetoric and phoney legislation to the contrary.  It
will also result in foriegn wars and the forced, massive relocation of
people, as oil barons fight over the ownership of the newly discovered oil
properties.  This why we are sending billions in arms to Columbia, and why
we trained Indonesian death squads here in North Carolina.

When I first read about this torsion field technology, my immediate thought
was that this would be a real boon to tectonic plate researchers, and in
particular, it may prove to be an excellent tool for the earthquake early
warning systems like ELFRAD, but the company that developed the technology
was bought up by an oil company.  Interestingly enough, while researching
earthquakes and early warning detection efforts, I came upon this gem of a
site.  Check out the financial backers, and this "non-profit" organization's
official reason for being.

www.crowdingtherim.org

This will allow the US oil companies to prospect in secret, under the guise
of a humanitarian mission, and it will also allow the US military to
intervene over there again on behalf of US "business interests", such as
Disney, Nike and Gap.

If Ms Newman is doing anything, she is helping the Disney Conglomerate, the
US oil companies, and the US arms industry keep expanding into territories
where they don't belong, by denying the real success of alternate fuel
technologies, and the overt guilt of her employer.  If she is unaware of
this after all the reports to that effect, then she is enormously stupid.  I
don't think she is stupid at all, I think she knows exactly what she is
doing, and I think her paycheck is soaked in misery and blood.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 08:54:21 2000
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>nasa puts aluminum particles in the fuel of the space shuttle...
>MJ

Yes, we had a fairly good discussion about producing Hydrogen with regards
to the fuel cell work that was being done by NASA using Aluminum.  It is not
a bad alternative in many circumstances.  Even used here on Earth, the
resulting ultrafine AlOx may find a good use in the geopolymer industry
without any reprocessing, eh?

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 09:44:18 2000
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>><
>*
>*From reading your response, I can see that we are talking apples, and
>*aquariums here, but that's OK.  Yes, I just am interested being able to
>*handle the surge from a plasma ball dumping its energy into a
>*circuit.  I am
>*assuming that the initial dump would be high voltage, and that is why I am
>*thinking along the lines of a liquid core, inductive transformer that has
>*both a copper primary and secondary.  If you know of anything that could do
>*the trick, I'd appreciate the info.
>*
>Mercury in a glass coil tube, perhaps, as a primary ?
>
>*BTW, I think Vortex must be dropping messages again, because I have no idea
>*what you are talking about.  Do you have an URL for the device that you are
>*trying to replicate?
>
>I'm not trying to replicate anything -
> I simply thought I would try to make a transformer
> using water in a tube instead of copper, as I have
> a use for inductive effects from piped salt water.
>I seem to have made a bad assumption about this, however,
> or else I have improperly built the test setup

***{By the generally accepted theory, if H is the field strength, n is the
number of turns, I is current, and L is the length of the coil, then H =
nI/L. If � is the magnetic permeability and B is the flux density, then B =
�H = �nI/L. Thus there should be no difference in the values of H and B,
when a solenoid using water in a plastic tube is compared to one using
copper in a plastic tube (i.e., ordinary insulated copper wire), providing
that  the values of �, n, I, and L are the same. However, in the setup you
describe, you are dealing with the rarest and least investigated bird of
all: conventional current--i.e., an actual circuit in which the charge
carriers move from positive to negative, like Ben Franklyn originally
thought they did. Thus there is at least a possibility that you have
discovered a bona fide physical anomaly. Before reaching that conclusion,
however, I suggest that you set up an equivalent control circuit using
ordinary copper  wire, in which  �, n, I, and L are the same, so that you
can be very sure that you didn't mess up your measurements somewhere.
--MJ}***

>
>*  From what I could glean, you are piping water out of
>*an aquarium and wrapping the tubing around another liquid core transformer.
>*If you are using any kind of pump in the aquarium tubing (like an aquarium
>*pump), then Horace would be correct, that you probably don't have
>*a circuit.
>*Most of the aquarium pumps that I have seen are the diaphragm type,
>*and there
>*would be discrete water chambers that would cut the circuit.
>
>I used tap points in the water tubing -
> there was 5 amps flowing through the tubing
> so I am fairly certain the primary
> was a complete circuit.
>
>*
>*Knuke
>*
>*Michael T. Huffman
>*Huffman Technology Company
>*1121 Dustin Drive
>*The Villages, Florida 32159
>*(352)259-1276
>*knuke LCIA.COM
>*http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>*
>*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 10:10:05 2000
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:10:10 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Russia is planning to launch balloons for uses similar to
satellites but at a much lower cost.  Initially, they will be
powered by solar energy but later . . .

Quoting from:

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/russian_blimp_000919.html

The blimps will be powered by solar energy collected by
a film-like solar array covering the upper part of the
blimp which will convert sunlight into electricity, said
Vitaly Kulyasov, deputy general director of Alternativa
Center. 

"Later, this solar-electric engine will be replaced by a
gravitational-inertial engine," Kulyasov said. "The
principle of the latter�s operation is a Russian
commercial secret. I can only say that this principle is
similar to the one which generates tornadoes and
hurricanes."

<end quote>

Sounds vaguely familiar.  ;-)

Terry

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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
[snip]
> "Later, this solar-electric engine will be replaced by a
> gravitational-inertial engine," Kulyasov said. "The
> principle of the latter�s operation is a Russian
> commercial secret. I can only say that this principle is
> similar to the one which generates tornadoes and
> hurricanes."
> 
> <end quote>
> 
> Sounds vaguely familiar.  ;-)
> 
> Terry

Hehe, this is great. Now, rest of world will hurry to develop similar engines, hopefully.

Maybe little early to say before its fly but again, a technology is ahead of  retarded science. Salute black hole theoreticians, salute programs which index physics advancement to GeVs of accelerators.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 10:57:54 2000
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William Beaty wrote:

Has everyone seen Nick Reiter's ongoing thread about mass changes in
ultrasonically vibrated powders?  It's very strange,
and should be easily replicated by anyone who has a professional
lab balance with milligram resolution.  

Subject: Tribo-gravitic materials
Andreas Hecht wrote:

The following is short piece from N.A.Kozyrev's article "On the
possibility of experimental investigation of the properties of time",
published in "Time in Science and Philosophy", Prague, 1971:

Hi All,

Since I am very interested in this subject (what affects G),
I have N.A.Kozyrev's article posted at
http://www.centurytel.net/tjs11/hist/kozyrev.htm

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: Catalyst for methanol synthesis and reforming (US6114279)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:10:07 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This just issued on Sept 5th. Aimed at using Hydrogen to tie up CO2 from
auto exhausts, power plants,etc., as methanol:


CO2 (44 lbs) +   3 H2 (6 lbs) --->  CH3OH (32 lbs,  4.85 gal) + H2O (18 lbs, 2.16 gal)

http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US06114279__

H2 from the High Pressure Electrolysis of water using Solar Cells or Windmills
for the electrical energy can be "stored" in this way.

Regards,  Frederick







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[DOC#6]
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al;sz=3D468x60;cat=3Dresearch;ord=3D2763061?

[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=3DUS06114279__
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 11:29:20 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water
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Here is an intriguing title from the upcoming ANS meeting:

R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, "Anomalous Power Generation Produced by 
Stirring Water Solutions"

I asked Richard Oriani whether this result has connection with the Griggs 
ultrasonic device. He responded:
I do not know what the similarity is between my experiments and
         those of Griggs. I do not try to produce cavitation or
         ultrasonic conditions. A feature of my work is that no metallic
         parts are involved, and indeed no crystalline parts either. Only
         rapid stirring is done. The ANS presentation will have an
         abstract.

Oriani is a superb experimentalist and one of the most careful and thorough 
scientists I have ever met. If he says there is excess heat from stirring, 
I am inclined to take the idea seriously. I have heard fragmentary reports 
of this phenomenon over the years. A particularly dramatic example was seen 
in a huge machine used to mix slurry for oil wells.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 11:50:55 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water
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I had a feeling (or was it a dream?<g>) that there was something to 
that whirlpower stuff. Really. Too bad that guy could not cohere let 
alone present and promote his ideas in a useable way.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>Here is an intriguing title from the upcoming ANS meeting:
>
>R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, "Anomalous Power Generation Produced by 
>Stirring Water Solutions"
>
>I asked Richard Oriani whether this result has connection with the 
>Griggs ultrasonic device. He responded:
>I do not know what the similarity is between my experiments and
>        those of Griggs. I do not try to produce cavitation or
>        ultrasonic conditions. A feature of my work is that no metallic
>        parts are involved, and indeed no crystalline parts either. Only
>        rapid stirring is done. The ANS presentation will have an
>        abstract.
>
>Oriani is a superb experimentalist and one of the most careful and 
>thorough scientists I have ever met. If he says there is excess heat 
>from stirring, I am inclined to take the idea seriously. I have 
>heard fragmentary reports of this phenomenon over the years. A 
>particularly dramatic example was seen in a huge machine used to mix 
>slurry for oil wells.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 12:03:40 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer (Paul Anderson) wrote:

>*>I think they failed due to the
>*> large diameter tubing (5mm)
>*> but perhaps not...

Is that 5 mm an inner diameter?

>
>The primary was low impedance -
> ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
> around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.

That 50 cm is the coil diameter I take it.


>The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
> testing it at various levels of salinity through
> to saturation.


Did you rember or keep a record of how much salt you used per waht volume
of water?


>
>The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
> 330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.


What is a standard solenoid coil?  Do you mean an automotive spark coil?

Is the coil inside a metal jacket?

How many trurns in the secondary coil?

How did you measure the input and output currents and voltages?


>I was inside the water tubing primary.
>
>I could not get any magnetic effects either,
> using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.
>
>I may have something wrong with the setup -
> I would certainly like to hear someone else
> replicate this.


I have done experiments of a similar nature in the past.  I would be
interested in replicating, or at least checking your hypotheis, if your
results should at some point look remotely like they are correct.  I can
say from experience with electrolytic conductors that it is very important
to nail down all the details to make sense of the results.

In one case I used 10.3 m or 0.318 cm inner dia. tubing, which, using a
lithium salt electrolyte, had a resistance of 226 k.  My cross section area
was 0.0792 cm^2.  Your cross section area is 0.196 cm^2.  A 50 cm dia. coil
has a length of 156 cm per turn, giving you a 25.15 m primary coil length
for your 16 turn experiment.  Since you used a range of salt
concentrations, it is likely you experienced a primary resistance in the
neighborhood of (226 k ohms)(10.3 m)(0.0792 cm^2)/(0.196 cm^2)(25.15 m),
which is 37.4 k ohms.  This practically guarantees you had a high impedence
primary in all cases.  To get your 5 amps at 50 Hz you would have to supply
the primary with (37400 ohms)(5 amps) = 187,000 volts, at 5 amps, or about
a megawatt of power.

Since you probably don't have a 1 megawatt power supply, I assume either
there is some detail missing or I have made both a large intuitive error
and a large calculation error.  (It would not be a first time for that kind
of blunder on my part!)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 12:21:32 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water
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>Here is an intriguing title from the upcoming ANS meeting:
>
>R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, "Anomalous Power Generation Produced by 
>Stirring Water Solutions"
>
>I asked Richard Oriani whether this result has connection with the Griggs 
>ultrasonic device. He responded:
>I do not know what the similarity is between my experiments and
>         those of Griggs. I do not try to produce cavitation or
>         ultrasonic conditions. A feature of my work is that no metallic
>         parts are involved, and indeed no crystalline parts either. Only
>         rapid stirring is done. The ANS presentation will have an
>         abstract.
>
>Oriani is a superb experimentalist and one of the most careful and thorough 
>scientists I have ever met. If he says there is excess heat from stirring, 
>I am inclined to take the idea seriously. I have heard fragmentary reports 
>of this phenomenon over the years. A particularly dramatic example was seen 
>in a huge machine used to mix slurry for oil wells.
>
>- Jed

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise really, Jed.  Hamdi just posted an
article in Vortexb about shrimp causing cavitation bubble collapse just by
moving their claws at speeds of around 70mph.  My 4" diameter rotor at as
low 2200 RPM, I believe, was still showing massive cavitation and measurable
excess heat.  You have said in the recent past that the Potopov device, the
Perkins/Pope device, and the Hydrosonic pump didn't work, but you never said
why.

The Potopov devices that you were shipped were incomplete, as we all know.
The Perkins/Pope device that you got was damaged in shipping, and then sent
back for repairs.  The last we heard of that investigation, either Perkins
or Pope died (I forget now which one), and that was the end of it, as far as
I know.  The Hydrosonic pump that you have has been sitting in your
warehouse for about 3 years now, still waiting for you to test it.  Everyone
else that has bought one, NASA, the British Ministry of Defense, Tennessee
Valley Authority, Delta Airlines and numerous others seem to think that it
works pretty well.  Halliburton, Brown and Root wanted mine.  In other
words, I think you were really, really wrong.  Its really too bad about
that, too.

Oriani probably just hasn't tested his machine for cavitation yet, and he
should do so.  Cavitation bubble collapse should have been his first
suspect.  High speed photography or Schlieren imaging would show it.  If he
is using distilled water as a working fluid, then a KaI reagent or H2O2
reagent would show it.  He should write to Suslick for details.  If he is
using all dielectrics, as I did with my device, then there are undoubtedly
electrons being knocked off and mini-plasmoids are being formed.  Like I
said, excess heat should be no surprise at all, even from a simple stirring
device.  Anybody can do it.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 12:47:50 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:21:53 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Here is an intriguing title from the upcoming ANS meeting:
>
>R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, "Anomalous Power Generation Produced by 
>Stirring Water Solutions"
>
>I asked Richard Oriani whether this result has connection with the Griggs 
>ultrasonic device. He responded:
>I do not know what the similarity is between my experiments and
>         those of Griggs. I do not try to produce cavitation or
>         ultrasonic conditions. A feature of my work is that no metallic
>         parts are involved, and indeed no crystalline parts either. Only
>         rapid stirring is done. The ANS presentation will have an
>         abstract.
>
>Oriani is a superb experimentalist and one of the most careful and thorough 
>scientists I have ever met. If he says there is excess heat from stirring, 
>I am inclined to take the idea seriously. I have heard fragmentary reports 
>of this phenomenon over the years. A particularly dramatic example was seen 
>in a huge machine used to mix slurry for oil wells.

HAH!!!  Maybe that's why the numbers of my simple calorimeter
experiment in freshman physics didn't turn out correctly.   :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 13:15:18 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: I'm to speak at ANS . . . Oops . . .
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

>adjustment I derived the megahertz-meter relationship.  The analysis is
>simple and based on the conservation laws and the properties of wave motion.
>Jed I've had a reprint of my UIUC lecture sitting around at Infinite Energy
>for one year now.  Can you get it to press?

No, sorry, but I have no influence whatever on this end of editorial 
policy. Papers about theory are over my head, so I cannot express an 
opinion about them, or recommend them. I might edit the English if I am 
requested. (I can do that even though I do not have a clue what the author 
means.)

If you were to write about experiments, history or business I might 
recommend publication, but for me to make recommendations about theory 
papers would be absurd. It would be like asking you to review a book 
written in Japanese.

I do have an extremely simplistic way of dealing with theories, which so 
far has not been of any use to me or anyone else. At ICCF conferences, I 
ask theory paper authors a few basic questions: "do you make predictions 
that can be tested by experiment? Can you tell us how to get more excess 
heat?" Most of the time authors cannot think of any way to test the theory. 
They say "this theory explains all previous results." But previous results 
are mostly wrong, contradictory, and scattered across the landscape. A 
theory which explains ALL of them, explains nothing. As far as I am 
concerned, when a theory cannot be tested and it makes no useful 
predictions, it cannot be falsified, and it is not part of science. I don't 
care about such things, and I would never waste reader's time discussing them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 13:24:13 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Magnetohydrodynamic Pumps/Generators
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At 10:34 AM 9/24/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>
>BTW, I think Vortex must be dropping messages again, because I have no idea
>what you are talking about.

The problem is that there has been only a minimal description of the
experiment, an insufficient description to either diagnose or replicate the
situation.



>Do you have an URL for the device that you are
>trying to replicate?   From what I could glean, you are piping water out of
>an aquarium and wrapping the tubing around another liquid core transformer.
>If you are using any kind of pump in the aqaurium tubing (like an aquarium
>pump), then Horace would be correct, that you probably don't have a circuit.


I did not mean to imply there was a broken circuit.  My point was that a
high impedence primary is indicated due to the long path through the
electrolyte, which in at least one experiment was ordinary water.  It is
therefore important to ascertain exactly how the 5 amps was measured for
what experiment and under what conditions: AC or DC, pulsed or continuous,
using what voltage, and what instrumentation?   Alternatively, and I
suggested this with the intent of minimizing the communication effort (at
which I failed miserably,) the primary could very quickly (assuming the
apparatus is still available) be wrapped with a second copper primary with
the same number of turns so as to provide a control experiment.

Another aspect that needs  description is the size and geometry of the core
used.  My impression is that the core does not provide a completed magnetic
circuit linking the water primary to the secondary.  If the input is 60 Hz
AC, then the resulting poor coupling, plus the possibility of a much lower
dI/dt than expected, may result in what appears to be no magnetic field
coming from the water primary.

Another interesting effect that could be coming into play here is that
current in the water primary suddenly switches on at a critical voltage.
This would tend to make the output of the transformer have spikes, and
possibly a very distorted waveform, depending on the operating voltage of
the primary..

Here is another approach that requires no additional measurements other
than simply measuring the output of the secondary, and which takes into
account the fact that the characteristics of the water primary are dynamic,
and provides a full control.  Here is the method:

  1.  Wrap the water coil with a second copper primary coil
      of large guage (say #10 wire or larger) having the same
      number of turns

  2.  Connect the two primary coils in series to make a single primary.

  3.  Measure the output.  If there is none then there
      is no indication of an anomaly.

  4.  Disconnect the copper primary from the water primary.

  5.  Measure the output in the secondary with only the water
      primary activated

  6.  The measured output from step 5.  The rms voltage should be about
      half that measured in step 3, and the rms current twice that
      measured in step 3.  However, good instrumentaion may be required
      to do this measurement because the waveforms may be VERY different.
      Measurement 3 by itself is sufficient to determine if you have an
      anomaly, but measurement 6. may help determine the source of a
      measurement problem, if any, especially if a good scope is used
      in addition.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Discover Mag's's  Stupidity
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>Tom writes:
>>This sounds like a classic of stupidity
>
>Akira was more generous with his assessment, but I don't think that either
>of you are correct.  It is almost impossible to become a writer for any
>nationally and internationally circulated publication like Discover without
>being an excellent researcher, and any researcher in any field by now has
>had ample time and opportunity to see the pattern of events that are
>unfolding before us today.
>
>The Disney Conglomerate, as Akira has characterized them, is a powerful
>financial concern with tentacles all over the world.  They, along with most
>other large, multi-national corporations, are promoting a nice cartoon
>picture of global capitalism while working literally to enslave the people
>of the third world.  It was widely reported in the financial papers last
>year, and even in the corporate owned press that when Ernst and Young, one
>of the most respected accounting firms in the financial world, investigated
>Disney's textile manufacturing operations on the Pac Rim, that they found 10
>year old girls shackled to sewing machines, forced to work eighteen hours
>per day under brutal and filthy conditions.
>
>Michael Eisner, who was charging $15 per T-shirt here in the US, issued a
>brief statement saying that it was more or less a cultural thing that he had
>no control over, and the shock of the reality of the situation blew over.

***{Slavery is a fact of life in most of the world, Knuke, and that
explicitly includes the U.S. What do you think the hundreds of thousands of
Americans are who, in the "land of the free", we force to work in prison
factories? The vast majority of them are there because of victimless crimes
such as buying, selling, or using marijuana cigarettes, or killing
"endangered" wild animals that threatened them on their own property, or
filling in mud puddles (destroying "wetlands") on their own property, or
burying trash ("operating an unregistered landfill") on their own property,
or responding to an assault by a bigger man, or by several men, by using a
weapon, or because of one of ten thousand other garbage "offenses." What
this means is that Eisner is correct when he says slavery is a cultural
phenomenon over which he personally has no control. Moreover, he also does
not have the option of manufacturing textile goods using free labor at high
cost, so long as he has competitors who are willing to manufacture the same
goods using slave labor at lower cost. Like it or not, he must use the
lowest cost-structure available, if he wants to sell at competitive prices;
and if he does *not* sell at competitive prices, his alternative is to
simply go out of business. This not to deny that he is a scumbag, of
course. I know little about the man, but I regard it as *highly probable*
that he uses his political connections exclusively to line his pockets, and
that he goes along with slavery in order to get along with the fascist
rulers in the countries where his factories are located.

So what is the answer? Here are the alternatives:

(1) We can apply moral and political pressure to encourage the governments
in the affected regions to abolish slavery, and, if they refuse, we can
send in the Marines. But how can we justify sending in the Marines, until
we have ceased to practice slavery ourselves?

(2) We can bitch and moan and condemn businessmen from Western countries,
ignoring the fact that most of them are merely making the best of a bad
situation and, in the process, are providing the chattel slaves in such
primitive regions with *far better jobs*, at *much higher wages*, than
would be available to them if the foreign companies, and their jobs, were
pulled out.

(3) We can direct our attention to the fact that the American government is
in the process of fastening the yoke of slavery about our own necks, and we
can focus on getting our house in order while letting the citizens of other
countries do likewise.

I suggest option (3), and, after that has been successfully accomplished, I
suggest that we implement option (1) for any slaveholding countries that
remain. As for (2), I regard that sort of activism as a game for suckers.
It is precisely what the power elite wants us to focus upon and talk about,
because it diverts the attention of Americans (and citizens of other
Western nations) from the fact of their *own* virtual enslavement. Frankly,
I am thoroughly sick of the ongoing sideshow in which "conservatives"
(social fascists) battle it out with "liberals" (economic fascists) to
decide the shape of the pen in which the cattle (i.e., us) are to be
confined. It is time people began to direct their critical focus toward the
endlessly proliferating laws and regulations by which they are being
railroaded into tyranny, and ask themselves a simple question: "By what
logic do the people who are passing this stuff think they have the right to
order the rest of us around?"

Any person who focuses on that question for very long will discover that
the answer is simple: they are ordering us around because they can enrich
themselves by doing so, and because we have been dumb enough to let them
get away with it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>The next cartoon came on, people were entertained by the animated colored
>light show, and people forgot about the slavery.  They continued to buy
>their kids Micky Mouse videos, toys and T-shirts, and planned their winter
>vacations in Florida at the largest themepark hell in the world.
>
>Nike and Gap have also been found to have been running similar operations
>over there, and they both have significant property holdings tied up in
>textile and shoe manufacturing facilities.  They dwarf in financial power
>nearly every other indigenous industry in many countries on the Pac Rim.
>Everybody here knows about it or has been officially informed, but try and
>get anyone to say out loud that it is wrong, and you will see what America
>has devolved into being.  A nation of slave owners in denial, and their
>dwindling number of cowardly silent "employees".

***{While I share your negative view of the American public, I must
quibble. America is not a nation of slave owners, because the actual slave
owners are a tiny fraction of the population. It would thus be far closer
to the truth to say that America is a nation of efficiently managed
slaves--slaves who have been so thoroughly dumbed down by government
"education" that they literally cannot comprehend the nature of the
indignities that are being visited upon them. Who, then, are the actual
slave owners? They are the members of the international fascist elite--a
cabal of enormously wealthy political insiders who, via a vast network of
underlings and apologists, manage the global system from behind the scenes
for their own benefit. --MJ}***

>
>Another operation that is taking place right now is the re-mapping of the
>world by the oil companies with a new device that allows basically,
>prospecting from the sky.  The device is a transducer based torsion field
>detector that can find fissures in the Earth's crust, which are where oil
>companies are now drilling.  The effectiveness of this technology is the
>reason that we have seen the estimates of the global oil field capacity
>double within the last two years.  The oil field capacity will continue to
>increase as more areas are mapped out, and more oil fields are discovered.
>The technology has opened up a new era of global oil wildcatting that will
>thwart every effort to put an alternative fuel vehicle on the road, despite
>all the appeasement rhetoric and phoney legislation to the contrary.  It
>will also result in foriegn wars and the forced, massive relocation of
>people, as oil barons fight over the ownership of the newly discovered oil
>properties.  This why we are sending billions in arms to Columbia, and why
>we trained Indonesian death squads here in North Carolina.

***{Without defending the fascist oil cartel, death squads, or war, I must
say that I love the actual environmental effects of using hydrocarbon fuels
(as opposed to the bogus effects alleged by fake environmentalists). As I
have pointed out repeatedly, in this group and elsewhere, CO2
concentrations in excess of 2,000 ppm--almost an order of magnitude above
present levels--were thoroughly tested during the age of the dinosaurs.
(See, for example, *Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations over the past
60 million years*, by Paul Pearson and Martin Palmer, *Nature* #406, Aug.
2000, pg. 695-699.) What those tests showed was that global greening, not
global warming, is what really happens. During those times greenbelt
expanded almost to the poles, due to the CO2 fertilization effect, and
animal populations expanded with it. (See, for example,
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~dannj/ecenvir.htm.) What this means is that
when CO2 levels rise, greenbelt spreads toward the poles, deserts bloom,
water tables rise, and the icecaps disappear, all without significant
alteration of sea levels (the water formerly stored in the icecaps is
stored in the rising water tables and in the new biomass, which is 80%
water). --MJ}***

>
>When I first read about this torsion field technology, my immediate thought
>was that this would be a real boon to tectonic plate researchers, and in
>particular, it may prove to be an excellent tool for the earthquake early
>warning systems like ELFRAD, but the company that developed the technology
>was bought up by an oil company.

***{By the way, nothing about my favorable attitude toward the use of
hydrocarbon fuels should be construed to imply that I am a supporter of the
oil cartel. In point of fact, I dislike huge institutions, whether
governmental or corporate, and I am utterly opposed to the preferential
laws and regulations by which governments have assisted politically
connected companies in crushing their competition. By such a process,
favored companies have been enabled to become *vastly larger* than would
have been possible under laissez faire capitalism. That means we live in a
world dominated by gigantic corporate entities for one reason only: because
we live in a world dominated by fascism. In a world where political
connections were not a means of gaining an unfair competitive advantage,
most of the corporate combines that we are familiar with today would not
exist. --MJ}***

Interestingly enough, while researching
>earthquakes and early warning detection efforts, I came upon this gem of a
>site.  Check out the financial backers, and this "non-profit" organization's
>official reason for being.
>
>http://www.crowdingtherim.org
>
>This will allow the US oil companies to prospect in secret, under the guise
>of a humanitarian mission, and it will also allow the US military to
>intervene over there again on behalf of US "business interests", such as
>Disney, Nike and Gap.

***{True, but most "environmental" organizations have the same sorts of
corporate backing, and are part of the same scam. The suckers in the
various political movements think they are crusading for the betterment of
mankind, but when the laws are actually written, there are always
politically connected insiders, sitting in smoke-filled rooms, who make
sure that the fine print will make it hard on their competitors, and will
direct massive flows of income into their pockets. That's just the way
fascism works, Knuke! :-) --MJ}***

>
>If Ms Newman is doing anything, she is helping the Disney Conglomerate, the
>US oil companies, and the US arms industry keep expanding into territories
>where they don't belong, by denying the real success of alternate fuel
>technologies, and the overt guilt of her employer.  If she is unaware of
>this after all the reports to that effect, then she is enormously stupid.  I
>don't think she is stupid at all, I think she knows exactly what she is
>doing, and I think her paycheck is soaked in misery and blood.

***{Yup. But the solution doesn't lie in the passage of new laws and
regulations, because that  is the system which is the source of the results
to which you, quite properly, object. There is simply no way to alter the
fact that when the fine print goes into the legislation or regulation, it
is going to happen in a back room somewhere, where all of the politically
connected scumbags are going to figure out how to dot the i's and cross the
t's in a way that will maximize the flow of income into their pockets. Thus
the only way to deal with this system is to abolish it--which means: take
away the power of government to violate people's property rights, even if
they argue that such measures are "in the public interest." That means we
need a new constitution, in which the essential functions of government are
graven in stone. That means no legislature to pass thousands of
"improvements" every year, until we have been "improved" into abject
tyranny; and and it means no government courts to adjudicate cases by
granting to government the "right" to do any damn thing it pleases. Civil
and criminal cases must be tried before private arbiters who have been
selected by a neutral winnowing process, as I have explained elsewhere. If
that is done, the tweaking of the system which is necessary to adjust it to
changing times will be accomplished automatically, by precedents that are
established when novel cases are tried in court. No legislature, hence no
sovereign power, hence no tyranny, will be required. --MJ}***

>
>Knuke
>
>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 13:44:00 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise really, Jed.  Hamdi just posted an
>article in Vortexb about shrimp causing cavitation bubble collapse just by
>moving their claws at speeds of around 70mph.

Oriani does not think cavitation is involved with his device.



>excess heat.  You have said in the recent past that the Potopov device, the
>Perkins/Pope device, and the Hydrosonic pump didn't work, but you never said
>why.

That's wrong. I never said the Hydrosonic pump does not work. I said it has 
not been replicated at high sigma yet, so I do not know if it really works 
or not. As far as I know it does, but I never trust one or two tests 
(including my own).




>The Potopov devices that you were shipped were incomplete, as we all know.
>The Perkins/Pope device that you got was damaged in shipping, and then sent
>back for repairs.  The last we heard of that investigation, either Perkins
>or Pope died (I forget now which one), and that was the end of it, as far as
>I know.  The Hydrosonic pump that you have has been sitting in your
>warehouse for about 3 years now, still waiting for you to test it.


That's incorrect. Potapov himself came to Los Alamos and tested his device. 
It produced no excess heat or any other anomaly. He claimed that it started 
working on the last hour of the last day, but I doubt it, and in any case, 
he could have tested it here in the U.S. at his son's house in the weeks 
before he brought it to Los Alamos, but he did not. At best he is 
monumentally sloppy, at worst he is wrong, or lying. We were shipped two 
Perkins/Pope devices, and we ended up spending a week back at his place in 
Georgia. When we built a restricted air inlet, all indications of excess 
heat vanished. Our previous results, and all results P & P measured for the 
last several years were indisputably in error. They used that same 
technique as far back as they could remember, and it was wrong the whole 
time. There were supposedly positive tests made at corporations with 
controlled inlets, but I have only sketchy information on them. The 
hydrosonic pump that we had was the wrong size, and it was unworkable. 
After some testing we sent it back. I am not sure if a replacement is in 
hand, but it is very difficult to install and test.



>   Everyone
>else that has bought one, NASA, the British Ministry of Defense, Tennessee
>Valley Authority, Delta Airlines and numerous others seem to think that it
>works pretty well.


I have not seen any documents or test results from these places. I heard 
rumors from Griggs, but nothing from the people who now run the company. 
(He left years ago.)



>   Halliburton, Brown and Root wanted mine.  In other
>words, I think you were really, really wrong.  Its really too bad about
>that, too.

How could I be really, really wrong about something I have not seen, about 
which I know nothing? How can I make any assertions either way? To the best 
of my knowledge, only four people have carefully validated the Griggs 
machine: Keizios at the Georgia Tech; the Doughety County engineer; Griggs 
himself, and last and least, me. There may be many others but I have not 
heard from them. Have you? Care to give us any hard information, or a copy 
of their reports? You cannot be really, really right (or wrong) about 
research when you have no written, published, or signed reports, and you 
have not discussed the papers with the authors. All you can do is grasp at 
straws and engage in wishful thinking.



>Oriani probably just hasn't tested his machine for cavitation yet, and he
>should do so.  Cavitation bubble collapse should have been his first
>suspect.  High speed photography or Schlieren imaging would show it.

You have no idea what he has or has not done! You are getting carried away 
by your own imagination, like Grouch Marx in "Duck Soup:" "Oh is that what 
he would say, is it?!?" He is a very careful scientist, and when he makes 
an assertion, he usually has a stack of data to back it up. Perhaps he has 
not looked at cavitation, but based on his previous lectures and papers, my 
guess is that he has exhaustively ruled this out.

- Jed

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water


> Michael T Huffman wrote:
> 
> It shouldn't be too much of a surprise really, Jed.  Hamdi just posted an
> >article in Vortexb about shrimp causing cavitation bubble collapse just by
> >moving their claws at speeds of around 70mph.
> 
> Oriani does not think cavitation is involved with his device.
>

Cavitation is Not Necessary for Light Lepton Pair Annihilation in stirred water.

> 
> I never said the Hydrosonic pump does not work. I said it has 
> not been replicated at high sigma yet, so I do not know if it really works 
> or not. As far as I know it does, but I never trust one or two tests 
> (including my own).

Depends on the history of the water. The Sun has had billions of years  to
create LL Pairs in the upper atmosphere, which eventually get into
the Hydrosphere, but you can run simple conductivity/agitation experiments
with water from various sources and see this effect.
> 
> 
> Potapov himself came to Los Alamos and tested his device. 
> It produced no excess heat or any other anomaly. He claimed that it started 
> working on the last hour of the last day, 

Cheshire Cat effect.  :-)  Aerate the water (gently) for a while, then run the tests, most
likely a one-shot deal.

Regards,  Frederick

> - Jed
> 
> 

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Subject: Seeing Red
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I am reading the book entitled, "Seeing Red" by Halton Arp.

It contains convincing evidence that redshift is not an indicator of 
astronomical distance, as presently believed, but rather an intrinsic 
property of matter that, according to Arp, tells us the age of the matter!

Specifically, Arp presents what appears to me to be incontrovertible 
evidence that quasars (pointlike objects of extreme redshift) have been 
ejected by active galaxies which have MUCH lower redshifts than their quasars!

The evidence is mainly in the form of pictures taken both with 
hydrogen-alpha light and x-ray "light" which show tendrils of gas or other 
active material trailing around and behind the quasars CONNECTING to the 
purported parent galaxy.

What does this have to do with Vortex-L?   Well, the cosmos provides a 
fantastic experimental laboratory where energies beyond our wildest 
terrestrial dreams are commonplace.  The only problem with this 
"laboratory" is that our involvement is passive...we can only observe.

I haven't gotten to Arp's theory section yet but I gather that he proposes 
that newly created matter doesn't have as much mass as older matter because 
it hasn't had time to "communicate" with the rest of the universe 
yet...i.e. a Machian viewpoint.  Somehow he works out that lighter matter 
would exhibit redshifted emission lines...  Thus he concludes that quasars 
are actually brand new (astronomically speaking, of course) blobs of matter 
that are created in the nucleus of active galaxies and ejected, usually in 
matched pairs traveling in opposite directions away from the parent 
galaxy.  Further, since they aren't nearly at the edges of the visible 
universe as the Hubble relation predicts, they also don't possess the 
extremely high absolute luminosity usually attributed to quasars.

I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that 
could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of 
intrinsic redshift?


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:

>
>I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>intrinsic redshift?
>

This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Note: I don't think Mr. Reiter ever used unsealed containers.


On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> I just did a *very* quick 'n dirty experiment on a closed plastic 
> bottle of kaolin clay powder with a 6khz sawtooth signal from 
> speakers in air and got what would appear to be a positive result. 
> The fact that makes me suspicious that it might have actually been a 
> positive was that the weight slowly returned afterwards like Nick 
> Reiter has been reporting. That seems very strange.

If the same weight alterations occurred with materials or with empty
containers, I would suspect an artifact. 

If I understand Mr. Reiter's reports, he gets zero effect with a tube of
water, but gets a strong effect with a tube of clay/water slurry.  What
artifact would depend on having clay in the water?  Maybe clay absorbs
energy and heats up more than water alone.  A filled tube should be
weighed while cold and while warm (heated some other way than with
ultrasound.)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 15:14:52 2000
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Maybe I am missing something....I thought he sealed the test
tube....if he did, then how does heating cause weight loss....???...
I think in one post he states that he used epoxy to seal....steve



William Beaty wrote:

> Note: I don't think Mr. Reiter ever used unsealed containers.
>
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
> > I just did a *very* quick 'n dirty experiment on a closed plastic
> > bottle of kaolin clay powder with a 6khz sawtooth signal from
> > speakers in air and got what would appear to be a positive result.
> > The fact that makes me suspicious that it might have actually been a
> > positive was that the weight slowly returned afterwards like Nick
> > Reiter has been reporting. That seems very strange.
>
> If the same weight alterations occurred with materials or with empty
> containers, I would suspect an artifact.
>
> If I understand Mr. Reiter's reports, he gets zero effect with a tube of
> water, but gets a strong effect with a tube of clay/water slurry.  What
> artifact would depend on having clay in the water?  Maybe clay absorbs
> energy and heats up more than water alone.  A filled tube should be
> weighed while cold and while warm (heated some other way than with
> ultrasound.)
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 15:28:38 2000
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Tinkersguild says that the Scientific American CDROM is now shipping
(finally!  It was supposed to come out in June!)  See
http://www.tinkersguild.com. It has all the "Amateur Scientist" and
"Amateur Telescope Making" magazine columns going back 70 years.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 15:41:19 2000
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Subject: Re: Oriani reports excess heat from stirring water
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:33:33 -0400
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>Here is an intriguing title from the upcoming ANS meeting:
>
>R. A. Oriani and J. Fisher, "Anomalous Power Generation Produced by 
There was also a report of hydrogen generation by stirring, which we 
covered in Inifnite Energy.  The report concerned the article by S. 
Ikeda, T. Takata et al, "Mechano-catalytic overall water splitting" in 
Chemical Communications, 1998, p.2185.  The authors suggest that this is 
a means of converting mechanical energy to chemical energy in the form of 
hydrogen -oxygen splitting from water in the presence of certain 
catalysts.


Gene Mallove

>Stirring Water Solutions"
>
>I asked Richard Oriani whether this result has connection with the Griggs 
>ultrasonic device. He responded:
>I do not know what the similarity is between my experiments and
>         those of Griggs. I do not try to produce cavitation or
>         ultrasonic conditions. A feature of my work is that no metallic
>         parts are involved, and indeed no crystalline parts either. Only
>         rapid stirring is done. The ANS presentation will have an
>         abstract.
>
>Oriani is a superb experimentalist and one of the most careful and thorough 
>scientists I have ever met. If he says there is excess heat from stirring, 
>I am inclined to take the idea seriously. I have heard fragmentary reports 
>of this phenomenon over the years. A particularly dramatic example was seen 
>in a huge machine used to mix slurry for oil wells.
>
>- Jed
>
>

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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, sno wrote:

> Maybe I am missing something....I thought he sealed the test
> tube....if he did, then how does heating cause weight loss....???...

A better question:  DOES heating alone cause a measurable weight loss?  If
so then the possible mechanism is a separate issue.  (Maybe the heated
boundary layer at the container surface provides some bouyancy?)

Nick did report testing this, but only to exclude any effects of the
warmth of the water-bath inside the ultrasonic cleaner.  If hotspots
develop in the test sample, could they cause the measured weight loss? 
The regain of weight over 15 minutes sounds suspiciously like slow
cooling. 

I vaguely recall that air at sea level weighs about ??1/2KG?? per cubic
meter.  That gives 5E-7 grams/cc lifting force for a vacuum region.  It
doesn't sound like atmospheric bouyancy could account for the size of the
effect he found.  If a sample tube heated to 90C doesn't weigh measurably
less, and if it's weight doesn't increase as it cools to room temperature,
then heat is not an issue.

Ah, there's another variation on sample testing:  chill a sample to 30C,
run the ultrasound with ice in the water bath, then see if it has any
effect on the weight gain compared to starting at room temperature
instead.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 16:47:15 2000
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	Dear Vo... and Jed,


	I thank Frank for writing this letter because it promted Jed to
talk about theory.  T am cutting part of the letter at the beginning and
then have questions and comment on some of Jed's thinking.
	My apologies to Frank for "walking around" his writing about his
theory.  I do not know what his theory is, but am willing to try to
understand it.
	This writing is not about any specific theory.



On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

	".... adjustment I derived the megahertz-meter relationship.  The
analysis is simple and based on the conservation laws and the properties
of wave motion.  "  End of my copying of Frank's letter, for the purposes
of not getting lost.

	_______________	CUT	_________

	I am looking at some OU concepts here... and struggling... so, in
no particular order of importance ...


	Jed writes:
 
> If you were to write about experiments, history or business I might 
> recommend publication, but for me to make recommendations about theory 
> papers would be absurd. It would be like asking you to review a book 
> written in Japanese.
> 
> I do have an extremely simplistic way of dealing with theories, which so 
> far has not been of any use to me or anyone else. At ICCF conferences, I 
> ask theory paper authors a few basic questions: "do you make predictions 
> that can be tested by experiment?


	Dear Jed,

	If a person makes presentation of the results of experiment but
does not, per se, present a theory, what category does this fall in, or
what do we or should we call this?
	What do or would you call a report about, say, an unexplained or
unexpected source of energy?  Or a report about an unexplained or
unexpected phenomena exhibited and the body of work which setablihes
context?

	As an example:

	Hypothetically:	I report on a body of work and an exerimental set
up and the results of same.
	The experiment is a catalytic breaking of the bonds between O and
H in the water molecule at STP, or Standard Temperature and Pressure.  STP
is about 14.7 pounds per square inch air pressure at about 70 degrees F.
	The experiment uses a physical material in the form of a thin
plate of metals, catalysts and semiconductors and is placed in an aqueous
electrolytic solution of water and a light alkali metal carbonate salt. 
Sodium carbonate is the example salt at a concentration of 1/10 mole.  
	A mole is the atomic or molecular weight of the compound or
element in grams.  As example carbon is an element.  Its atomic weight is
about 12.011 so a mole of carbon would be about 12 grams.  Cabon monoxide
is a compound of Oxygen and Carbon.  Oxygen has an atomic weight of about
15.999 so a mole of oxygen is about 16 grams.  if you add the atomic
weights of the  atoms in a compound, or about 12 grams for carbon and
about 16 for oxygen the molecular weight is roughly 28 or a mole of CO
weighs 28 grams.
	So far we have done a reasonably good job of defining the
experimental set up.
	The composite active element of he experiment is the thin plate of
metals, catalysts and semiconductors.  The plate which is sensitive to
visible optical energy falling on it, is in the water solution.  The
semiconductor is intended to be placed in water with the express business
of breaking water into H and O. 
	A potential of 0.40 volts is developed by the semiconductor and
one face of the semiconductor is electrically negative, when exposed to
visible light and the other is positive.
	A electrolytic water solution is thought to require a voltage
greater than 0.4 volts for electrolysis.  If 4  active plates are used 
electrically series a voltage of about 1.4 volts ca be developed and this
is generally recognized as being capable of electrolysing water.

	Here is a key question:  Let us suppose a clever person
empirically tested many many materials as discovered a material which is
both electrically conductive AND is catalytically active in breaking the H
and O bond in water.
	Let us then say the catalytic material allows electrolysis at 1.2
volts, or the electrical equivalent of only 3 composite plates instead of
4 plates. 

	Q: Is the system then over unity?
	Q: What properties would have to obtain for the system to be over
			unity?	  

	Q: Would OU be realized if only two plates or 0.8 volts were
required?

	Q: Now let us suppose the reason for only 3 plates being required 
is because the very small number of highly energetic cosmic rays, or high
frequency electromagnetic waves is what is REALLY responsible for the "3
plate only" effect.

	Q: Is this not OU because we did not recognize the real mechanism?
	Q: Suppose the system is truly catalytic, is this now OU?
	Q: Suppose we never find the answer for the mechanism .... or not
recognize it  for what it is... is this then OU?

 
	I am trying to find out some answers to the basic guidelines for
the OU community.  
	I respect Jed's "down to Earth" thinking.  I am also soliciting
suggestions and terminology.

	I have often wondered if we might use a classification of 
	Energy from an Unexplained or Unexpected Mechanism ... Maybe we
would call this E U M ....
	If the mechanism is not understood, but empirically operates, what
should we call it and how should we classify it?
	In general I have, over the years, found some energy systems
and-or exhibitions of behavior for which there is no reason or mechanism I
have found. 
	Some of these "puzzles" may be immediately useful... some are not
Obviously useful.
	How shall we, as a community, begin to embrace and classify this
type of observation and investigations of same?

	Should the unexpected simply be set aside?

	A VERY real issue is the unexpected as observed by persons with
partial training or background in a given field o endeavor.  These parties
may use different words in an attempt to describe what they have seen.
The odd or improper use of terms may cause highly trained persons and
others to discount such observations.


	I open the disccusion, and than Frank and Jed.


				John Schnurer

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	Please read the contribution, below, then look at the questions
about mechanisms at the end...

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:
> 
> >
> >I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
> >could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
> >intrinsic redshift?
> >
> 
> This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
> of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
> are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
> then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
	Q:  Why are or how can old rocks or new rocks which are stationary
be "red shifted"
	Q:  	How can you see a doppler effect in a stationary
substance?
	Q:  Have we lost part of the text so that this letter a non fit?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 17:16:59 2000
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err, you meant 30F?

>Ah, there's another variation on sample testing:  chill a sample to 30C,

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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>At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:
>
>>
>>I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>>could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>>intrinsic redshift?
>>
>
>This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
>of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
>are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
>then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.

***{False. When a geologist says a rock is four billion years old, he means
that the geological process which laid it down took place 4 billion years
ago, not that the atoms within the rock came into existence 4 billion years
ago. (You should have had a cup of coffee before hitting the send button on
that one, Horace! :-) --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

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At 7:56 PM 9/25/0, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Please read the contribution, below, then look at the questions
>about mechanisms at the end...
>
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>> >could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>> >intrinsic redshift?
>> >
>>
>> This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
>> of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
>> are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
>> then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Horace Heffner
>>
>        Q:  Why are or how can old rocks or new rocks which are stationary
>be "red shifted"


According to Scott, Halton Arp. says that redshift is not an indicator of
astronomical distance, as presently believed, but rather an intrinsic
property of matter.  This implies a whole new paradigm, a new
interpretation of the term "red shift."  The term would thus no longer
necessarily be velocity associated.


>        Q:      How can you see a doppler effect in a stationary
>substance?


You heat it up and look at it with a spectroscope, and compare the lines
with those of a control substance.


>        Q:  Have we lost part of the text so that this letter a non fit?


It doesn't appear that way.

I would also like to withdraw my earlier comments about Arp's theory, in
that the implication would be that it is the age of the ATOMS, or more
specifically the electrons, that would be involved in the red shift, not
the rock crystals themselves.  The implication is that it is not the rocks
but the particles of the rocks that would be involved in Arp's red shift.

Also, I would like to note that the red shift observed would have to be due
to both relative motion AND to an intrinsic property of matter, if such a
property exists,  because I believe it is already established
experimentally that velocity based red shift does occur, so an intrinsic
red shift based on age could only add to the effect due to velocity, not
replace it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 18:23:07 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 8:08 PM 9/25/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{False. When a geologist says a rock is four billion years old, he means
>that the geological process which laid it down took place 4 billion years
>ago, not that the atoms within the rock came into existence 4 billion years
>ago. (You should have had a cup of coffee before hitting the send button on
>that one, Horace! :-) --MJ}***


Right you are Mitchell!   However, I don't drink coffee.  I am remodelling
my house and don't have the time to respond well.  Just can't resist the
temptation.  8^)  Sorry!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 18:35:53 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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At 3:51 PM 9/25/0, William Beaty wrote:

>I vaguely recall that air at sea level weighs about ??1/2KG?? per cubic
>meter.  That gives 5E-7 grams/cc lifting force for a vacuum region.  It
>doesn't sound like atmospheric bouyancy could account for the size of the
>effect he found.

My experience with sensitive balances is that even small heat source (to
one side of the balance)  creates a sufficent draft to tip the balance.
The effect is much larger than  bouyancy.  I have had the exuberant
experience of finding an "anti-gravity" device, only to discover the
problem was thermal drafts caused by the heat from power to the device.



>If a sample tube heated to 90C doesn't weigh measurably
>less, and if it's weight doesn't increase as it cools to room temperature,
>then heat is not an issue.


Yes, the problem is why certain samples exhibit the effect and others do not.


>
>Ah, there's another variation on sample testing:  chill a sample to 30C,
>run the ultrasound with ice in the water bath, then see if it has any
>effect on the weight gain compared to starting at room temperature
>instead.


Excellent idea!  If chilled enough, a down draft might make it appear
heavier though.  There is still the problem of the difference between
samples. It could be a matter of thermodynamic properties of the materials.
Better insulating materials may cause the heat effect to last longer,
while plain water will dump its heat thoroughly and fast by convection.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 18:42:16 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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>I am reading the book entitled, "Seeing Red" by Halton Arp.
>
>It contains convincing evidence that redshift is not an indicator of
>astronomical distance, as presently believed, but rather an intrinsic
>property of matter that, according to Arp, tells us the age of the matter!
>
>Specifically, Arp presents what appears to me to be incontrovertible
>evidence that quasars (pointlike objects of extreme redshift) have been
>ejected by active galaxies which have MUCH lower redshifts than their quasars!
>
>The evidence is mainly in the form of pictures taken both with
>hydrogen-alpha light and x-ray "light" which show tendrils of gas or other
>active material trailing around and behind the quasars CONNECTING to the
>purported parent galaxy.
>
>What does this have to do with Vortex-L?   Well, the cosmos provides a
>fantastic experimental laboratory where energies beyond our wildest
>terrestrial dreams are commonplace.  The only problem with this
>"laboratory" is that our involvement is passive...we can only observe.
>
>I haven't gotten to Arp's theory section yet but I gather that he proposes
>that newly created matter doesn't have as much mass as older matter because
>it hasn't had time to "communicate" with the rest of the universe
>yet...i.e. a Machian viewpoint.  Somehow he works out that lighter matter
>would exhibit redshifted emission lines...

***{If mass, as I have long suspected, is merely the sum of the absolute
values of the microcharges that comprise a particle, then lightweight atoms
would contain protons and electrons with charges that were closer to zero,
and hence to each other, than is the case with ordinary matter. Result:
electron transitions would involve lesser amounts of energy, and would be
redshifted. --MJ}***

Thus he concludes that quasars
>are actually brand new (astronomically speaking, of course) blobs of matter
>that are created in the nucleus of active galaxies and ejected, usually in
>matched pairs traveling in opposite directions away from the parent
>galaxy.  Further, since they aren't nearly at the edges of the visible
>universe as the Hubble relation predicts, they also don't possess the
>extremely high absolute luminosity usually attributed to quasars.
>
>I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>intrinsic redshift?

***{Diagenesis in rock involves a steady increase in the strength and
density of the rock, over time, due to the deposition of minerals by the
water that percolates through it. The push theory of gravitation requires
that a similar process take place in matter.

As you may recall from the many discussions on this group in the past, the
LeSage push theory of gravitation holds that incomprehensibly vast numbers
of particles, which he called *ultramundane corpuscles*, are flying about
in all directions, at hundreds of millions of times the speed of light.
While the vast majority of these particles pass through matter, including
even planetary and stellar masses, a very, very tiny percentage are
absorbed, resulting in the force we call gravity. If, for example, you are
floating in the interstellar deep, there will be equal numbers of
ultramundane corpuscles hitting you from all directions, and so they will
exert no net force pushing you in any direction. But if you are standing on
the surface of the Earth, a tiny percentage of those that would otherwise
rise up to hit you from below will be absorbed by the Earth. Result: a net
force--gravity--pushing you toward the Earth.

If the push theory of gravity is true, then over astonomically vast spans
of time the accumulation of absorbed ultramundane corpuscles would, of
necessity, result in an increase in the mass of the atoms of which matter
is composed. And if we add in my own postulate, above, that mass is
proportional to the sum of the absolute values of the microcharges of which
particles are composed, then Arp's conclusion immediately follows: newly
created atoms, not having absorbed ultramundame corpuscles for billions of
years, would have to be lightweights by comparison with the atoms of
ordinary matter.

Of course, that is not yet a sufficient framework to support his theory. In
addition, he needs some mechanism to account for how the black holes at the
centers of galaxies might be centers of matter creation, and how they might
periodically spit out great gobs of the stuff.

When you come to the part where he addresses such questions, please let us
know what he has to say. (Otherwise, we may be forced to read the book
ourselves. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 18:54:48 2000
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Bill writes:
>If I understand Mr. Reiter's reports, he gets zero effect with a tube of
>water, but gets a strong effect with a tube of clay/water slurry.  What
>artifact would depend on having clay in the water?  Maybe clay absorbs
>energy and heats up more than water alone.  A filled tube should be
>weighed while cold and while warm (heated some other way than with
>ultrasound.)

The water may actually help transmit the vibrations to the clay better.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> err, you meant 30F?
> 
> >Ah, there's another variation on sample testing:  chill a sample to 30C,

Ooops!  Well, 0C actually.  Cold but not solidified.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PatentCafe Eye on IP News
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:30:21 -0400
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EYE ON IP NEWS UPDATE     Mon 25SEP00 Vol. 04: No. 34

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PatentCafe's Eye On IP / IPFrontline(sm) 

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PATENTCAFE MAGAZINE TOP STORIES:

o After The Honeymoon-Tips on Preventing Licensor's Remorse
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NEWS PATENTCAFE

o This Week's Chat - Gary Kellman
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o Event Notice: Oklahoma Inventors Congress


==================NEWS PATENTCAFE=================

o Tuesday Nite Live Expert Chat - September 26, 2000

Guest Expert, Gary Kellman presents:
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Our Guest this week is Inventor Gary Kellman. Gary's been
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For more information send an e-mail to
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 20:03:41 2000
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:51:16 -0700
(PDT):
[snip]
>I vaguely recall that air at sea level weighs about ??1/2KG?? per cubic
>meter.  That gives 5E-7 grams/cc lifting force for a vacuum region.  It
[snip]
I think you may have dropped a few zeros. I get more like 1.3E-3 gm/cc.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:05:43 -0500:

>I am reading the book entitled, "Seeing Red" by Halton Arp.
>
>It contains convincing evidence that redshift is not an indicator of 
>astronomical distance, as presently believed, but rather an intrinsic 
>property of matter that, according to Arp, tells us the age of the matter!
[snip]
I think there is a much simpler explanation. The Compton effect. Red shift
is a function of distance, but not of velocity (or at least not totally of
velocity).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:45:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
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In a message dated 9/19/00 10:58:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
schaffermj yahoo.com writes:

> A 1 m circumference conducting loop should show a drive-point impedance
>  minimum (resonance) at about 150 MHz. Are you sure you did not make a
>  decimal point mistake?  

I drop decimals all the time <g> but I don't think so in this case. The 
function generator 
is only good to ~22 MHz.

I must clean up the setup like adding BNC connectors for all connections and
shielded cable for all wiring. Right now it's alligator clips and meter lead 
wiring
to the 12V pwr supply. Working on it.

If not, what was the nature and length of the cable
>  from the power transistor?  

The setup; S=scope, G=sig generator, L=loop. Connecting cables are 
BNC connectors RG/58U cable, except loop connector via alligator clips
at one end of cable:

[S]-----(24 in.)----------{G]----(18 in.)-----------[L]

a BNC "Tee" connector is at the signal generator. 



You should be able to get the same resonance
>  without the transistor and its possible complications by driving the loop
>  directly from the sweep generator through a 50 Ohm cable. The voltage
>  magnitude will be lower, but it should still be readable on the
>  oscilloscope.

Easily readable. Scope has good pre-amps.
I'm going to put some scope photos up at the H2K website. I took some pics
today drill hand held camera. Gotta use the tripod. 
>  
>  
>  
>  =====
>  Michael J. Schaffer
>  
  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Sep 25 23:27:12 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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Halton Arp proposes that newly created matter doesn't have as much mass as
older matter because it hasn't had time to "communicate" with the rest of
the universe.  The red shift he proposes is thus likely due to the change
in electron mass/charge ratio, and thus the orbital mechanics of atoms.  I
suggest, if that is true, that data is already available to determine if
Arp's theory is correct.  It is in the form of bubble chamber tracks.
There exist many available tracks of positron-electron pair production, as
well as of secondary electron showers.  The radii of the tracks would have
to differ between the two classes of particles in order to support Arp's
hypothesis.  Since this likely would have been noticed by now, considering
that track analysis is highly automated, it seems there is already evidence
to invalidate the theory.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:39:36 -0800, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>My experience with sensitive balances is that even small heat source (to
>one side of the balance)  creates a sufficent draft to tip the balance.
>The effect is much larger than  bouyancy.  I have had the exuberant
>experience of finding an "anti-gravity" device, only to discover the
>problem was thermal drafts caused by the heat from power to the device.

Lab balances have had complete enclosures (to prevent air currents)
for more than a century (I have one from 1895).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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At 11:23 PM 9/25/0, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:39:36 -0800, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
>Heffner) wrote:
>
>>My experience with sensitive balances is that even small heat source (to
>>one side of the balance)  creates a sufficent draft to tip the balance.
>>The effect is much larger than  bouyancy.  I have had the exuberant
>>experience of finding an "anti-gravity" device, only to discover the
>>problem was thermal drafts caused by the heat from power to the device.
>
>Lab balances have had complete enclosures (to prevent air currents)
>for more than a century (I have one from 1895).


If you stick a hot item on the balance you get convection currents inside
the enclosure.  The problem can be addressed by insulating the item to be
weighed - but in some cases only briefly.

I have even seen convection currents affect a torsion balance, by creating
lateral aerodynamic forces in addition to vertical ones.  The problem was
cured by placing the "weight" inside a foam box.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 07:34:01 2000
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Subject: Re: About experimentalism and theory and the Search for OU
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John Schnurer wrote
If a person makes presentation of the results of experiment but
         does not, per se, present a theory, what category does this fall
         in, or what do we or should we call this?

Experiments! The person would be an experimentalist, like McKubre. He says 
"it is up the theoreticians to determine what this work means." The 
distinction is somewhat artificial, and arbitrary. In real life, theory and 
experiment lie at the extremes of a spectrum, shading into one another, 
like law and justice, or love and sex. McKubre pretends he does not know 
much about theory, and he pretends to have no opinion about which direction 
it should go. I am not pretending; it is no act with me. What I know about 
CF theory would fit on a postcard. In fact, my whole knowledge of physics 
is encompassed in a handy reference book titled "Physics Made Simple" 
(Doubleday, 1990), written by a man born in 1905. If it isn't in here, 
chances are I did not do the experiment in college and I wouldn't 
understand it. This book has an anti-intellectual bias which I share, 
exemplified in this wonderful statement on page 26, after the discussion 
and formulae on gravitation: "Notice that Newton's law allows us to 
calculate the force of gravity but does not tell us what gravitation is or 
why it exists. These are questions of philosophy, not physics." Take that, 
Dr. Podkletnov!

On the rare occasions I speculate about theory, my statements are based on 
the syllogisms, without reference to mathematics. For example, Dr. Mills 
predicts helium at a much lower rate per joule than conventional D-D 
reactions would produce. Helium has repeatedly been found at precisely the 
rate D-D reactions produce, to within 5%. Therefore Mills' prediction is 
wrong, and that part of his theory must be wrong, at least insofar as it 
applies to palladium and probably nickel as well. (We will soon find out, I 
hope.) Please note that I can make this statement with confidence, even 
though I know nothing about the theory as a whole, and nothing about the 
role this assertion plays in it. His prediction about helium may be an 
unimportant guess that he tossed out years ago in response to my inquiry. 
Or it may be central to his whole scheme. I wouldn't know.

What do or would you call a report about, say, an unexplained or
         unexpected source of energy?  Or a report about an unexplained
         or unexpected phenomena exhibited and the body of work which
         setablihes context?

An observation!

Hypothetically I report on a body of work and an experimental
         set up and the results of same.
The experiment is a catalytic breaking of the bonds between O
         and H in the water molecule at STP, or Standard Temperature and
         Pressure.  STP is about 14.7 pounds per square inch air pressure
         at about 70 degrees F. . . .
. . .

Here is a key question Let us suppose a clever person
         empirically tested many many materials as discovered a material
         which is both electrically conductive AND is catalytically
         active in breaking the H and O bond in water.      Let us then
         say the catalytic material allows electrolysis at 1.2 volts, or
         the electrical equivalent of only 3 composite plates instead of
         4 plates.

         Q Is the system then over unity?

Very interesting! I would recommend you use a calorimeter to find out. A 
Seebeck calorimeter would be ideal for this purpose, I think.

Q What properties would have to obtain for the system to be over
         unity?

That's easy! You put the whole gadget in an enclosure, power it up, and 
then recombine the H & O inside the box, to form water. If the output heat 
exceeds the electric power in -- Bingo! -- that's the property you are 
looking for. Piece of cake.

Q Would OU be realized if only two plates or 0.8 volts were
         required?

I have no idea, but if you think so, that's how you should set up the gadget.

Q Now let us suppose the reason for only 3 plates being required
         is because the very small number of highly energetic cosmic
         rays, or high frequency electromagnetic waves is what is REALLY
         responsible for the "3 plate only" effect.

If the effect is big enough to measure, no way Jose. You can't detect 
cosmic ray energy with a Seebeck calorimeter. It might catalyze the 
reaction, but it cannot explain it.


      Q Is this not OU because we did not recognize the real mechanism?

Nope. The mechanism is irrelevant.

Should the unexpected simply be set aside?

Of course not! But . . . this is all speculation, right? You did not 
actually DO this yet, if I understand your message. You say, "Let us 
suppose a clever person empirically tested many many materials as 
discovered a material . . ." If this is supposition, you can dream up any 
outcome you want, with as much freedom as a science fiction movie 
scriptwriter. Frankly, science fiction bores me. I have no use for speculation.

- Jed

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Scott Little wrote:

Hi Jack, ...

I'm about as skeptical of observations as you can get but
Arp's evidence for quasars connected to Seyfert galaxies
seems unassailable.  I'd like to find some mainstream
astronomers to see what they really think of Arp's most
recent evidence ...

Hi Scott,

I'm replying to you via Vortex because of the flurry of
interest in "Seeing Red" which you have evoked.  Although
the silence (as opposed to attack mode) of mainstream
astonomers could be construed as an attempt at censorship,
I think they have been numbed into silence by the following
argument so well recapitulated by Ray Tomes:

Ray Tomes wrote:

In essence Arp suggests that the initial mass of new particles is very
small and that it increases as the light shell expands and the particle
can be considered to be communicating with other matter ...

In 1978 Tifft discovered not only the 72 km/s quantum, but also quanta
of 36 km/s, 24 km/s, 12 km/s, and mentions possible 6 and 3 km/s ones
also.  He mentions other of the above figures in later papers.

Let us think about three galaxies making a right angle
triangle AOB with us at O and redshifts of 72 km/s
observed by us for A and B.  If expansion is the cause of the redshift
then the relative velocity of A and B must be

sqrt(2)* 72 km/s or 1.414*72 ~= 104 km/s.

When other angles of triangle are also considered
the problem gets even worse for maintaining multiples of any quanta.
... I believe (and so does Arp) that THERE IS NO VELOCITY,
just quantised jumps in atomic masses from time to time ...

Jack Smith writes:

I need to look into this further, but I think two mainstream
astonomers who have discussed the Tifft data are Clube and Napier.
I have been interested in Clube and Napier because they postulate
a comet as the cause of the world climatic deterioration of the
sixth century AD.  (I incline to the theory that Krakatoa was the
culprit.)

Scott Little wrote:

I haven't gotten to Arp's theory section yet but I gather
that he proposes that newly created matter doesn't have as
much mass as older matter because it hasn't had time to
"communicate" with the rest of the universe yet...i.e. a
Machian viewpoint.  Somehow he works out that lighter
matter would exhibit redshifted emission lines...

Jack Smith writes:

Arp is not heavy on theory.  The importance of "Seeing Red"
lies in the observations presented there.  But, as Mills
is painfully aware in his patent struggle, "the job ain't
over till the paperwork is done" -- I'm visualizing the cartoon
with the roll of toilet paper.

The theory most adaptable to the observations
of "Seeing Red" is the continuous creation
of matter proposed by Hoyle and Narlikar.  Arp does not
get into the generation of new matter in the "black holes"
which are supposed to exist at the centers of various galaxies.
As far as he is concerned, I infer that new matter is being 
created within the Earth as well as anywhere (hence the extreme
importance of spectroscopic data, not just for the detection
of hydrino lines).

Anyway, on page 108 [of "Seeing Red"], Arp writes
"In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar proposed ...
a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's principle ...
As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
signals it receives."

As the electron "ages", it becomes more massive.  Arp (and Hoyle)
consider this to be an experimental observation like water always
flowing down hill.  This mass increase has several consequences:
p. 227 "When a less massive electron makes a transition between
atomic orbits, the photon involved has lower energy and the
resulting spectral line is redshifted."
p.231 "Jayant Narlikar and P. K. Das ... show that as the particles
[electrons?] gain mass, they slow down to conserve momemtum."

So where does the electron's additional mass come from?  On
page 228 Arp writes "... creation of matter ...  We must mean
the transformation of previously existing mass-energy.  Probably
this means materialization from a previously diffused state ..."
Could 'Previously existing mass-energy' be the same as Zero Point
Energy?

Mitchell Jones wrote:              (9-26-00)

***{If mass, as I have long suspected, is merely the sum
of the absolute values of the microcharges that comprise
a particle, then lightweight atoms would contain protons
and electrons with charges that were closer to zero,
and hence to each other, than is the case with ordinary
matter. Result: electron transitions would involve lesser
amounts of energy, and would be redshifted. --MJ}***

Then Mitchell Jones wrote the following OUTSTANDING contribution:

***{Diagenesis in rock involves a steady increase in
the strength and density of the rock, over time, due to
the deposition of minerals by the water that percolates
through it. The push theory of gravitation requires that
a similar process take place in matter.

As you may recall from the many discussions on this group
in the past, the LeSage push theory of gravitation holds
that incomprehensibly vast numbers of particles, which he
called *ultramundane corpuscles*, are flying about in all
directions, at hundreds of millions of times the speed of light.

While the vast majority of these particles pass through
matter, including even planetary and stellar masses,
a very, very tiny percentage are absorbed, resulting in
the force we call gravity.

If, for example, you are floating in the interstellar deep,
there will be equal numbers of ultramundane corpuscles
hitting you from all directions, and so they will exert
no net force pushing you in any direction. But if you are
standing on the surface of the Earth, a tiny percentage
of those that would otherwise rise up to hit you from
below will be absorbed by the Earth. Result: a net
force--gravity--pushing you toward the Earth.

If the push theory of gravity is true, then over
astonomically vast spans of time THE ACCUMULATION OF
ABSORBED ULTRAMUNDANE CORPUSCLES WOULD, OF NECESSITY,
RESULT IN AN INCREASE IN THE MASS OF THE ATOMS OF WHICH
MATTER IS COMPOSED. And if we add in my own postulate,
above, that mass is proportional to the sum of the absolute
values of the microcharges of which particles are composed,
then Arp's conclusion immediately follows: newly created
atoms, not having absorbed ultramundame corpuscles for
billions of years, would have to be lightweights by
comparison with the atoms of ordinary matter ...

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

Red shift is a function of distance, but not of velocity
(or at least not totally of velocity).

Jack Smith writes:

As Robin (and Fred Sparber) may recall, we had a discussion
here of the question "Is light from our Sun more redshifted
when observed on Jupiter than when observed on Earth?"
We kicked around what constituted the "gravitational well",
i. e. the relative importance of the Sun as emitter (R) versus
the distance of the Sun to Earth (r).  We almost had developed an
equation containing both variables before the discussion faded away.

Now, I'm inclined to think that "gravitational" redshift is
insignificant compared to "new matter" redshift.

Horace Heffner wrote:

I suggest ... that data is already available
to determine if Arp's theory is correct.  It is in the
form of bubble chamber tracks.  There exist many available
tracks of positron-electron pair production, as well as
of secondary electron showers.  The radii of the tracks
would have to differ between the two classes of particles
in order to support Arp's hypothesis.  Since this likely
would have been noticed by now, considering that track
analysis is highly automated, it seems there is already
evidence to invalidate the theory.

Jack Smith writes:

If continuous creation of matter is occurring, there would
not be just TWO CLASSES OF MATTER, there would be a vast
spectrum of particles of various ages.  If our solar system
condensed from the remains of some cosmic explosion, then
most of Earth's matter would be of the same age; so, unless
extreme care were taken, the spread of a spectral line would
be very small and easily ignored.

Richard Holle wrote:

I would like to add a few thoughts that I have had over
the years since working with high power beam klystrons
that modulate a radio carrier frequency, by changing the
voltage potential across a tuned cavity to effect a shift
in the speed of the passing beam of accelerated electrons.

In inter stellar space there has long been known to be an
excess of free electrons, due to their greater mobility.
I have always felt that in the great open spaces, between
galaxies there can be found areas that have been filled
with not much more than free electrons, that maintain
mutual static repulsion distances. In these open bubbles
there could be negative charge fields that would red phase
shift, light traveling thru in any direction.

Jack Smith writes:

I would appreciate some explanation of how
"negative charge fields [could] red phase
shift light traveling thru in any direction."

Well Scott,

It is a pleasureable surprise to see the interest in
"Seeing Red" on Vortex.  I hope it keeps up.

Jack Smith


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At 02:35 PM 9/26/00 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

<giant snip>

It is a pleasureable surprise to see the interest in
>"Seeing Red" on Vortex.  I hope it keeps up.

Wow, Jack...you've all over this topic!  I agree that it is VERY 
important.  If this can be sorted out it will revolutionize physics and 
cosmology.

Horace, the pair-production thing must be a completely local 
phenomenon.  Here on Earth, it takes >1.02 MeV to do it and the electron's 
mass is "instantly" established because we've supplied all the necessary 
energy to create that mass.  I'm guessing that it takes substantially LESS 
than 1.02 MeV to cause pair production around new matter like a 
quasar.  Jeez, I wonder if there's not some kind of signature (i.e. 
absorption edge) in the gamma ray spectrum of quasars that would confirm 
this....!?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 10:02:30 2000
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A friend of a friend has a web site which might be of use to some
Vorts:

http://www.mfgquote.com/

provides quotations for making virtually anything.  It's no cost
to the user.  The manufacturers pay a referral fee to him.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 10:40:19 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 9:55 AM 9/26/0, Scott Little wrote:

>Horace, the pair-production thing must be a completely local
>phenomenon.  Here on Earth, it takes >1.02 MeV to do it and the electron's
>mass is "instantly" established because we've supplied all the necessary
>energy to create that mass.

Why would a pair created here be any different than a pair created far away
or long ago?




>I'm guessing that it takes substantially LESS
>than 1.02 MeV to cause pair production around new matter like a
>quasar.

In that case creation of pairs here, which are brand new and thus don't
carry around accumulated mass baggage, should ALSO BE LESS.

>Jeez, I wonder if there's not some kind of signature (i.e.
>absorption edge) in the gamma ray spectrum of quasars that would confirm
>this....!?

You would certainly expect an absorbtion line at the pair creation energy,
whatever that may be there.  However, we know for a fact that such a line
will (also) be red shifted due to velocity, thus it serves no more purpose
than does the Balmer series, as far as I can see.  Since we do not know the
actual velocity we can not know distinguish between velocity related red
shift and mass accumulation red shift.   Hmmm...  I haven't thought this
out, but perhaps a close look the blurring of ROTATING stars or star
systems or galaxies could be used to distinguish, because, though we do not
know the absolute velocity, we know there is a fixed increment +v and -v
added to opposing sides.  I think the problem would be that using the
non-linearities of the relativistic doppler shift requires too much
precision in the observation of the spectral lines.  Well, its food for
thought anyway.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 10:40:20 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
Cc: karen1111 alltel.net, rsmith2@mediaone.net, tomcar@apk.net,
        tomsm53401 aol.com
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At 6:35 AM 9/26/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

[snip]
>Ray Tomes wrote:
>
>In essence Arp suggests that the initial mass of new particles is very
>small and that it increases as the light shell expands and the particle
>can be considered to be communicating with other matter ...

This makes no sense.  It implies a two-way communication is necessary for
an interaction.   Particles or waves (that carry force or mass) coming from
elsewhere in the universe can simply have been emitted prior to the
formation of, say, a new electron.  If the implication is that all such
ineractions are via quantum entanglement then electrons locked up in mass
on the earth will not have opportunities for entanglement, and thus will
not show any aging since the time of the matter condensation. They will
still be as light as they were at the time of rock formation or prior.


>
>In 1978 Tifft discovered not only the 72 km/s quantum, but also quanta
>of 36 km/s, 24 km/s, 12 km/s, and mentions possible 6 and 3 km/s ones
>also.  He mentions other of the above figures in later papers.


What is this about?  Is this a theoretical discovery or experimental?


>
>Let us think about three galaxies making a right angle
>triangle AOB with us at O and redshifts of 72 km/s
>observed by us for A and B.  If expansion is the cause of the redshift
>then the relative velocity of A and B must be
>
>sqrt(2)* 72 km/s or 1.414*72 ~= 104 km/s.
>
>When other angles of triangle are also considered


The fallacy there is that triangles of non-rational dimensions can exist.
IF motion is quantized then space must be quantized also, and very finely
so.  The "real" nature of motion is in the probabilities associated with
number a quanta of space "lept" in any given motion.


>the problem gets even worse for maintaining multiples of any quanta.
>... I believe (and so does Arp) that THERE IS NO VELOCITY,


I think velocity, as we perceive it experimentally, can be "enforced" or
simulated by nature in the form of discrete motions, provided physical
properties (force, momentum, etc.) actually exist in the form of
probability distributions.  The physical properties we measure are thus
mean values.


[snip]
>Mitchell Jones wrote:              (9-26-00)
>
>***{If mass, as I have long suspected, is merely the sum
>of the absolute values of the microcharges that comprise
>a particle, then lightweight atoms would contain protons
>and electrons with charges that were closer to zero,
>and hence to each other, than is the case with ordinary
>matter.


A problem with this theory is that there is nothing to prevent exchange of
small units of microcharges between electrons and electrons, or electrons
and protons, or protons and protons.  We would thus see, in a plasma,
blurred spectral lines as collisions between these particles provide the
opportunity for the (semi-permanent) exchange of microcharges.




[snip]

>
>If the push theory of gravity is true, then over
>astonomically vast spans of time THE ACCUMULATION OF
>ABSORBED ULTRAMUNDANE CORPUSCLES WOULD, OF NECESSITY,
>RESULT IN AN INCREASE IN THE MASS OF THE ATOMS OF WHICH
>MATTER IS COMPOSED. And if we add in my own postulate,
>above, that mass is proportional to the sum of the absolute
>values of the microcharges of which particles are composed,
>then Arp's conclusion immediately follows: newly created
>atoms, not having absorbed ultramundame corpuscles for
>billions of years, would have to be lightweights by
>comparison with the atoms of ordinary matter ...


A problem with this idea is that either some ultramundane corpuscles are
charged or not.  If they are charged, then unlike corpuscles will on
average be diverted to and absorbed by oppositely charged particles.  This
would either result in a mass annihilation, producing detectable radiation,
plus a mass DECREASE, or if such annihilation can not occur, would result
in a variable mass/charge ratio, which would have been detected.   In the
case of the existence of and absorbtion of non-charged ultramundane
corpuscles, the mass/charge ratio must change as they are absorbed.  This
would be seen in a variety of experiments where results clearly show
quantized units and fixed mass/charge ratios.  Therefore such ultramundane
corpuscles can not be absorbed long term, and thus can not account for the
red shift.



>Jack Smith writes:
>
>If continuous creation of matter is occurring, there would
>not be just TWO CLASSES OF MATTER, there would be a vast
>spectrum of particles of various ages.  If our solar system
>condensed from the remains of some cosmic explosion, then
>most of Earth's matter would be of the same age;

Thus creating one of the classes of matter - "billions of years old matter."

>so, unless
>extreme care were taken, the spread of a spectral line would
>be very small and easily ignored.

The other class of matter I proposed was newly created electron-positron
pairs, i.e. the class of "brand-new microseconds old matter."

There is plenty of experimental evidence that both classes have precisely
the same mass/charge ratio.



>
>Richard Holle wrote:

[snip]
>
>In inter stellar space there has long been known to be an
>excess of free electrons, due to their greater mobility.

That is interesting!  Is that theoretically known or observationally known?
If observationally known this may provide some confirmation of my own
theory, posted here at 7:25 PM (-800), 8/9/00 under the thread "Planar
Circular Currents".  An outcome of that theory is that the relativistic
effect of poles of circular current (which create a stellar magnetic field)
being roughly aligned with the axis of rotation of a star will create a
(typically negative) polar jet by changing the apparent charge of the
current carrying charges in a way that varies as your vantage point changes
from an equatorial to a polar view.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 10:43:40 2000
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From: Jim Uban <uban world.std.com>
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>At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:
>
>>I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>>could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>>intrinsic redshift?
>
> Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
>of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
>are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
>then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.

Horace,
	Almost all the material on Earth
would have come from the initial solar
system material.  Whether a rock is still
in its original 4-billion year old form
as opposed to material which has been
reformed by various processes would not
change the age of the atomic constituents.
Presumably this latter age would be the
source of the redshift that H. Arp discusses.
So, it would be hard to find materials of
different ages to do a lab test which shows 
differences in redshifts.
			Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 12:45:22 2000
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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Bill
	It sounds like the old farmer who put two tons of chickens in a
one ton pickup, and as he drove down the road he kept hitting the chicken
coop with a stick. When asked why, he said he had to keep half the
chickens flying all the time so he wouldn't overload his truck.

Hank

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> 
> Note: I don't think Mr. Reiter ever used unsealed containers.
> 
> 
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> > I just did a *very* quick 'n dirty experiment on a closed plastic 
> > bottle of kaolin clay powder with a 6khz sawtooth signal from 
> > speakers in air and got what would appear to be a positive result. 
> > The fact that makes me suspicious that it might have actually been a 
> > positive was that the weight slowly returned afterwards like Nick 
> > Reiter has been reporting. That seems very strange.
> 
> If the same weight alterations occurred with materials or with empty
> containers, I would suspect an artifact. 
> 
> If I understand Mr. Reiter's reports, he gets zero effect with a tube of
> water, but gets a strong effect with a tube of clay/water slurry.  What
> artifact would depend on having clay in the water?  Maybe clay absorbs
> energy and heats up more than water alone.  A filled tube should be
> weighed while cold and while warm (heated some other way than with
> ultrasound.)
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 12:54:53 2000
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There might be another explanation for this, that is a Non-Isotropic
value of the speed-of-light (c) in the Universe. Since M = E/c^2 a larger value of
c (c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo an eo are the permeability (inductance)
and permittivity (capacitance) of space respectively that can vary throughout the
Universe.

Case in point, the biblical people like Adam through Noah had lifespans 
of  Nine Hundred years or more, indicated that c was much greater than
it is now and the Earth was circling the Sun about Eight Times it's present rate
ie., it's mass was substantially less than it's present value. 

After the "Great Flood" and Noah (600 years old when the flood hit) lived
for 350 years after the "Flood" his descendants lived about 480 years, and
their descendants lived about  ~ 180 years.

Now we're down to about 1/2 that, and running on Viagra.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 13:13:05 2000
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Hi All,

I just imagined a cause of the redshift alternative to doppler and gravitational effects. I think one can make many hypothesis before going to ARP's.

My hypothesis is very simple :)

 Space-time have at least another dimension which have very large curvature in the scale of the universe, opposite to plank scale curvatures spelled on many theories. This curvature cause the redshift with a mechanism not defined yet. :)

Most promising cause of the this curvature would be matter, maybe directly connected to gravity or, an other field behaving like gravity caused by matter presense, but acting on the new dimension in a different way.

I know it makes little sense, if not nosense at all. :)
Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 13:25:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 1:38 PM 9/26/0, Jim Uban wrote:
>>At 4:05 PM 9/25/0, Scott Little wrote:
>>
>>>I was wondering if any of the Vortex audience had any pet theories that
>>>could explain why matter in our universe might have varying degrees of
>>>intrinsic redshift?
>>
>> Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>This theory could be quickly proven or disproven by doing spectral analysis
>>of older rock material on earth.  It was noted on NBC recently that there
>>are rocks over 4 billion years old in Australia.  If the theory were true
>>then the spectra of this material should be red shifted.
>
>Horace,
>        Almost all the material on Earth
>would have come from the initial solar
>system material.  Whether a rock is still
>in its original 4-billion year old form
>as opposed to material which has been
>reformed by various processes would not
>change the age of the atomic constituents.
>Presumably this latter age would be the
>source of the redshift that H. Arp discusses.
>So, it would be hard to find materials of
>different ages to do a lab test which shows
>differences in redshifts.
>                        Jim


I already corrected that yesterday.

At 5:23 PM 9/25/0, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>I would also like to withdraw my earlier comments about Arp's theory, in
>that the implication would be that it is the age of the ATOMS, or more
>specifically the electrons, that would be involved in the red shift, not
>the rock crystals themselves.  The implication is that it is not the rocks
>but the particles of the rocks that would be involved in Arp's red shift.
[snip]

However, if you want examine the hypothesis that the source of mass
increase is due to an increase in degree of quantum entanglement, then it
is easy to see that an atom, or its electrons, locked up in a
non-conducitve crystal would have little opportuniy for such interaction vs
similar atoms located in plasmas, like the sun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 13:31:10 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Seeing Red

Horace wrote:
> 
> However, if you want examine the hypothesis that the source of mass
> increase is due to an increase in degree of quantum entanglement, then it
> is easy to see that an atom, or its electrons, locked up in a
> non-conducitve crystal would have little opportuniy for such interaction vs
> similar atoms located in plasmas, like the sun.

Nope, if lightspeed has changed, dM = E/dc^2 maintains energy and 
momentum K.E. = 1/2 M*v^2 constant.

IOW, as the vacuum value of c decreases, the subatomic particles get heavier.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 15:04:49 2000
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At 2:28 PM 9/26/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Nope, if lightspeed has changed, dM = E/dc^2 maintains energy and
>momentum K.E. = 1/2 M*v^2 constant.
>
>IOW, as the vacuum value of c decreases, the subatomic particles get heavier.


Lightspeed change is not part of Arp's theory, is it?   8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 15:41:09 2000
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Dear All,
My web site that I mentioned earlier is now
essentially complete.  By reading the papers
provided in easily readable form, a person can
acquire the following information:

1. A background of what is known about cold fusion
based on dozens of duplications as well as a
description of many new discoveries about the
phenomenon.

2. A brief description of various attempts to
explain the effect.  These attempts are providing
an entirely new understanding of
nuclear-environment interaction.

3. A detailed discussion of the Pons-Fleischmann
effect including an evaluation of the suggested
errors. This evaluation shows that most of the
suggested errors do not apply and that the
observations can not be explained by prosaic
processes. The source of the heat is shown to be
the formation of He-4.

4. A proposal that beta-PdD is not, as previously
assumed, the environment in which the nuclear
reactions occur.  A detailed model is proposed
which suggests where to look for the actual
nuclear-active material.

Anyone who wishes to understand cold fusion is
provided with a guide to all sources of
information as well as an "objective" evaluation
of the information. Please check out
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html and
tell your friends.

Thanks,
Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 16:10:29 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Seeing Red

Horace wrote:


> At 2:28 PM 9/26/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >Nope, if lightspeed has changed, dM = E/dc^2 maintains energy and
> >momentum K.E. = 1/2 M*v^2 constant.
> >
> >IOW, as the vacuum value of c decreases, the subatomic particles get heavier.
> 
> 
> Lightspeed change is not part of Arp's theory, is it?   8^)

I Dunno, but momentum M*dc = E/dc allows energy and momentum to be conserved.

OTOH, G* M1*M2/R^2 would account for Biblical/Antediluvian "Giants" and the
5,000 pound blocks used in construction of the Great Pyramids would weigh about 50 pounds.  :-)

It probably would throw off Radioisotope Dating too.

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 16:40:10 2000
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On 26 Sep 2000, at 16:41, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Dear All,
> My web site that I mentioned earlier is now
> essentially complete....
...
> Please check out
> http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html and
> tell your friends.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed Storms
> 

Given the open invitation to spread the word, I have taken the 
liberty of copying your post to sci.physics.fusion. I presume you 
don't mind.

--Lynn

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:58:25 EDT
Subject: Expanded version of my ANS abstract
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ABSTRACT

The low level nuclear process defies conventional wisdom.  An established 
body of knowledge
has developed over many years.   According to this body of knowledge the 
process is
improbable. The atoms in a crystal lattice are separated by a few angstroms.  
The range of the
strong nuclear force is measured in Fermis.  The atomic spacing is many 
orders of magnitude
removed from the nuclear separation required to produce a reaction.  Tens of 
thousands of
electron volts of energy are required to overcome the electrostatic potential 
barrier of the
nucleus. The thermal energy at room temperature is only a fraction of an 
electron volt.  Nuclear
reactions are not induced at by such low energies.  The process emits almost 
no neutrons or
gamma radiation. The lack of radiation is not conducive to a neutron 
activated process.  Low
level transmutations do not always account for the amount of energy that is 
liberated.  It is no
wonder that the established scientific community does not believe these 
results.  This author's
"Constants of the Motion" theory exposes the mechanics of the process.  The 
theory states that
the constants of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose 
condensate that is
stimulated at a frequency of one-megahertz meter.  This new understanding 
should dispel the
disbelief and guide the development of the technology.  



THE CONSTANTS OF THE MOTION


The electric field of an isolated electron is shown in figure one.  The 
electric field of the electron
does not saturate.  It extends to infinity.   Charges are isolated by 
resistance.  Superconductors
(a type of Bose condensate) offer no resistance to electrical currents.  The 
electrical permittivity
of a superconductor is infinite.  The electric field of a superconductor is 
shown in figure two. 
This field is confined by the infinite permittivity of the medium.  No flux 
leaks away.   The range
of the electric field is limited to the dimensions of the superconductor.  
The electrical field is
concentrated within the superconductor.  The range and strength of the 
electric field determine
the electrical motion constants of the system.

The magnetic field passes through most solids.  A superconductor completely 
expels magnetic
lines of flux.  The shortest magnetic flux line has a dimension equal to the 
circumference of the
superconductor.  The length and strength of the magnetic field determine the 
magnetic motion
constants of the system.  


Low level nuclear reactions have been identified through the measurement of 
their reaction
products.  The heat of the reaction has also been detected.  It appears that 
the range of the
strong nuclear force has increased to atomic dimensions.   This tendency is 
presented in figure
three.   The strong nuclear force extends beyond the Coulombic potential 
barrier, through the
interatomic space, and to the neighboring nuclei.   The Coumbic barrier no 
longer hinders the
flow of nuclear energy.  There is no change of potential at the Coulombic 
barrier and no
radiation is produced.  Compound nucleuses are formed. 1  The fact that 
matter is not crushed
by the process demonstrates that the increase in the range of the force is 
accompanied by a
decrease in its strength.  Again the range and strength of the nuclear field 
determine the motion
constants of the system.


E. Podkletnov spun a superconducting disk while stimulating it at a frequency 
of 3 megahertz.2 
The experiment seemed to induce a strong near field gravitational anomaly.  
Other laboratories
have now reported similar anomalies. 3,4,5  NASA is experimenting with the 
process and
expects confirm it by the year 2001.   A consistent pattern of behavior is 
emerging.    The
behavior appears to be exhibited by all of the natural forces.


Figure four is a graph of the size of a condensate verses the frequency its 
stimulation.  The
gravitational anomaly produced by Podkletnov involved a disk 1/3 of meter in 
diameter.  This
disk was electronically stimulated at 3 megahertz.  The product of the disk's 
diameter and the
frequency of stimulation is one megahertz-meter.  Case and Arata have 
demonstrated that 50nm
particles consistently produce  nuclear reactions. 6 Miley's and Patterson's 
processes involve
thin films.  These films are about 100nm thick.  The particles and the thin 
films are stimulated
thermally at a frequency of about 1x1014 hertz.  The product of the 50nm 
dimension and the
stimulation frequency is about one 1 megahertz-meter.

The standard model of physics does not predict the megahertz-meter 
stimulation frequency. 
This author has discovered a flaw in the standard model.  The correction of 
the flaw revealed the
emergent low energy phenomena.  The standard model attempts to create the 
matter wave
function through the Fourier addition of a series of component waves.  The 
addition localizes the
wave function.  This author contents that this construct is fundamentally 
wrong.  Traveling
waves consist of a series of component waves, however, standing waves are not 
localized by the
process.  The representation of a standing wave by a Fourier series requires 
an infinite number
of component waves.  Natural infinites do not exist within a finite universe. 
 This author
contends that the matter wave function is held in place by reflections.   
These reflections
produce a force that confines  mass-energy.   All reflections are the result 
of a change in the
characteristic impedance of some medium.  Mechanical characteristic impedance 
is expressed in
ohms (1).
 
Ohms = (MK)1/2                      (1)
         
 M = mass,  K = the spring constant  
   
A spring snaps when it is stretched beyond its elastic limit.   The 
elasticity of a broken spring is
zero.  This drastic change in the spring constant results in a radical change 
in impedance.  The
change in impedance produces a total reflection.  Energy cannot propagate 
beyond the break in
the spring.  This construct can also be applied to fields.  Electrical 
characteristic impedance is
expressed in ohms.

Ohms = (L/C)1/2                                 (2)    

L=inductance,  C = capacitance   
           
The elastic limit of a mechanical system corresponds to a quantum of 
capacitance in an electrical
system (K varies as 1/C).  Limited elasticity requires no infinities and is 
fundamentally sound. 
The quantum of capacitance is expressed in terms that usually apply only to 
electrical systems,
however, the quantum represents a fundamental property of space.  The 
property is one of
simple harmonic motion and is independent of the type of field.   The Compton 
frequency of
matter increases directly with the mass of a particle.  The energy intensity 
per cycle never
exceeds the elastic limit of space.  The quantum of capacitance 'Cq' was 
calculated from the
Compton wavelength of the electron.  

 h/mc = K /[2 p(eo uo)1/2]              (3)
            
 Cq= eo/K                           (4) 
                    
 Cq = 3.42 x 10 -24 farads                  (6)              

Capacitance is a geometric property.  The geometry of the matter in the 
universe establishes a
minimum quantity of stray capacitance.   In other words the geometry of the 
universe determines
stiffness of space.  A variation in the impedance of space occurs when this 
limit is exceeded. 
Matter forms when the energy intensity exceeds the elasticity of space. 

The infinite permittivity (zero resistance) of a superconductor has the 
affect of connecting every
point within the superconductor directly to the bulk of the superconductor.  
The capacitance of
any point within a superconducting sphere equals the isotropic capacitance of 
the entire sphere. 
The electrical capacitance of an isolated sphere is given by (7). 

Cs = d 4 p e0 r                         (7)
                        
 d is the dialectic constant.  The dialectic constant of liquid nitrogen is 
2.      

The quantum of capacitance now equals to the isotropic capacitance of entire 
sphere.   The
change in the quantum value expresses itself in many ways.  Space softens,  
light slows,  the
Compton frequencies downshift, and the electrons wavefunction spreads out.   
The
downshifted, half wavelength,  Compton frequency of the electron 'F2c' was 
determined in (8). 

F2c = [1/2][Mc2/h][Cq/Cs]               (8)
                  
The result is one megahertz-meter.  Expressed in units of velocity the value 
equals half the
velocity of hydrogen's ground state electron.7  The application of an 
external stimulation of this
frequency  reinforces the condensation.  The nucleus participates in the 
reinforced condensation. 
The Compton frequency of the nucleus downshifts and the nuclear wavefunction 
spreads out. 
These affects produce unexpected low level nuclear reactions.

The speed of light 'c' is determined by the stiffness of space.  This 
stiffness is reduced within a
Bose condensate.  The reduced speed of light 'c2' is given by (9).

c2 = c [Cq/Cs]1/2                                   (9)

The calculation yields velocities in the 10 meter/second range.  This speed 
is consistent with
recent experimental results.8




CONCLUSION

The motion constants are not conserved.  They depend on the configuration of 
the system. 
Superconductivity affects the electrical motion constants.   The  nuclear and 
gravitational motion
constants are affected by a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a frequency 
of one megahertz-
meter.   The process lowers the elastic limit of space.  The reduced 
stiffness is expressed in
several ways.  The range of the forces tend towards the length of the 
superconductor.  The
constants of the motion tend toward the electromagnetic.  The frequencies of 
matter downshift. 
The speed of light is dramatically reduced.  The understanding of these 
phenomena will allow
many new technologies to be developed. 





APPENDIX  MATTERS DYNAMIC ATTRIBUTES


 The matter wave function is confined by reflections.  These reflections are 
Doppler shifted in
moving matter.  The sum of the original Compton wave and its doppler shifted 
reflection forms a
beat note.   The deBroglie wavelength equals the length of the beat note.  
The elastic limit of
space is exceeded when the deBroglie wave reaches a  kinetic maximum.   The  
Compton
wavelength of matter is expressed by (10).
        
           lc     = h/Mc                                                    
(10)
         
The relationship between frequency 'f' and  wavelength 'l' is expressed by 
(11).

        c = (fc)(lc)                                                    (11)


   Substituting (11) into (10)  yields (12) the Compton frequency of matter.


         fc  = Mc2/h                                                (12)      
    
       
  

 A Doppler shifted component of the original vibration is produced by a 
reflection at matter's
surface.  The amount of frequency shift is a function of the velocity 'v' of 
the reflecting surface. 
Classical Doppler shift is expressed by (13).

         f2  = f1 (1 +- v/c)                                           (13)   
      
A beat note is formed by the mixing of the Doppler shifted and original 
components.  This beat
note is the deBroglie wave of matter.

Equation 14 & 15  express a function "F" involving the sum of two sin waves.  


      F(v,t) | = amplitude orig. wave + amplitude reflected wave       (14)   
      
                |
                |  v = surface velocity



      F(t) = sin(2p fc t + p) +   sin[2p fc t (1 +- v/c)]                       
 (15)                      
                    

     Substituting (12) into (15) yields (16)



   F(t) = sin[2p (Mc2/h) t+ p] + sin[2p (Mc2/h) t (1 +- v/c)]         (16)


A minimum in the beat note envelope occurs when the component waves are 
opposed in phase.  
This minimum lies at matters surface. The phase angle between the waves 
differs by p radians at
this surface.    A maximum in the beat envelope occurs when the component 
waves are aligned
in phase.  The phases of (16) were set equal, in (17) to determine the phase 
's' at which the
aligned condition occurs.

                     s1   =  s2                                               
            (17)             
     
         2p t Mc2/h + p   = 2p t Mc2/h  +-  2p t Mcv/h                (18)


         ct = +- h/2Mv                                                        
         (19)
    
          ld    = h/Mv                                                        
          (20)           
           

  The result, (20) is the deBroglie wavelength of matter.  The analysis shows 
that the deBroglie
wavelength is produced by a reflection of mass energy.  A similar analysis 
can be done with a
the moving wave packet of a photon.  This analysis is fundamental to the 
duality of matter and
waves.




NOTES

1.      G. Miley "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-film Coating Undergoing 
    Electrolysis" Second Conference on low Energy Reactions

  2.    E. Podkletnov and A.D. Levi,  "A Possibility of Gravitational
    Force Shielding by Bulk YBa2Cu307-x  superconductor,"  
    Physica C, vol 203 (1992),  pp 441-444  

3.  Dr. Harald Reiss, "ABB Researcher Reports Possible Gravity 
    Modification", Superconductive Week, December 6, 1999

4.   M. Agop, C. Gh. Buzea, and P. Nica, St. Moara de Foc, Romania 
    "Local Gravitoelectromagnetic Effects on a Superconductor." 
    submitted to Physica C (in press). 
    
5.  Ning Li and D.G. Torr, 1992, Physical Review B, vol 46 #9,  
    "Gravitational effects on the magnetic attenuation of superconductors"

6.  Jed Rothwell, Infinite Energy,  Issue 29, 1999,  page 23.
    "50 nano-meters ..is the magic domain that produces a 
    detectable cold fusion reaction" 

7.    The analysis can be extended to provide a classical explanation of why
       the ground state orbits of the atoms are non-radiative

8.      Lene Vestergaard Hau; S. E. Harris; Zachary Dutton; Cyrus H. 
    Behroozi; Nature Volume 397 Number 6720 
    Page 594 - 598 (1999)



  





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 17:06:24 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:59:50 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Taylor J. Smith's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:35:35 +0000:
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>Red shift is a function of distance, but not of velocity
>(or at least not totally of velocity).
>
>Jack Smith writes:
>
>As Robin (and Fred Sparber) may recall, we had a discussion
>here of the question "Is light from our Sun more redshifted
>when observed on Jupiter than when observed on Earth?"
>We kicked around what constituted the "gravitational well",
>i. e. the relative importance of the Sun as emitter (R) versus
>the distance of the Sun to Earth (r).  We almost had developed an
>equation containing both variables before the discussion faded away.
>
>Now, I'm inclined to think that "gravitational" redshift is
>insignificant compared to "new matter" redshift.
[snip]
This does in fact turn out to be the case. However you appear to have picked
up my conclusion, while ignoring the important part: 

The Compton effect.

This effect is real, and given that even intergalactic space contains
charged particles (remnants of the stellar wind from billions of galaxies) 
it must be included in any red shift calculations.
To my knowledge, this has never been done.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 17:57:10 2000
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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:52:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Uban <uban world.std.com>
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> Horace wrote concerning mass age of rocks:

>I already corrected that yesterday.

Thanks Horace - I receive the digest version
of vortex-l, so am usually a day or so behind...	Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 18:22:34 2000
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Thanks Lynn, this is just what I want.
Ed

Lynn Kurtz wrote:

> On 26 Sep 2000, at 16:41, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> > My web site that I mentioned earlier is now
> > essentially complete....
> ...
> > Please check out
> > http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html and
> > tell your friends.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ed Storms
> >
>
> Given the open invitation to spread the word, I have taken the
> liberty of copying your post to sci.physics.fusion. I presume you
> don't mind.
>
> --Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 19:49:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:45:40 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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>In reply to  Taylor J. Smith's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:35:35 +0000:
>[snip]
>>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>
>>Red shift is a function of distance, but not of velocity
>>(or at least not totally of velocity).
>>
>>Jack Smith writes:
>>
>>As Robin (and Fred Sparber) may recall, we had a discussion
>>here of the question "Is light from our Sun more redshifted
>>when observed on Jupiter than when observed on Earth?"
>>We kicked around what constituted the "gravitational well",
>>i. e. the relative importance of the Sun as emitter (R) versus
>>the distance of the Sun to Earth (r).  We almost had developed an
>>equation containing both variables before the discussion faded away.
>>
>>Now, I'm inclined to think that "gravitational" redshift is
>>insignificant compared to "new matter" redshift.
>[snip]
>This does in fact turn out to be the case. However you appear to have picked
>up my conclusion, while ignoring the important part:
>
>The Compton effect.
>
>This effect is real, and given that even intergalactic space contains
>charged particles (remnants of the stellar wind from billions of galaxies)
>it must be included in any red shift calculations.
>To my knowledge, this has never been done.

***{The problem is that the Compton effect involves deflection of the
photons from their original paths--which means: photons redshifted by the
Compton effect are unidentifiable with regard to source. But the light that
is the subject of Hubble's theory is from identifiable
sources--specifically: it is from distant galaxies. Hence we know it has
not been redshifted by the Compton effect. --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 19:56:38 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Just a note

I am currently working on a FE device based on a monopole generator and some 
equation loopholes when applied to non-linear systems.

Wish me luck!

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 20:28:19 2000
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Hi Horace,

Those are excellent comments.  The following are
some preliminary remarks.

Jack Smith

Ray Tomes wrote:

In 1978 Tifft discovered not only the 72 km/s quantum,
but also quanta of 36 km/s, 24 km/s, 12 km/s, and mentions
possible 6 and 3 km/s ones also.  He mentions other of
the above figures in later papers.

Horace Heffner wrote:

What is this about?  Is this a theoretical discovery
or experimental?

Jack writes:

These are astronomical observations.

Jack Smith wrote:

If continuous creation of matter is occurring, there
would not be just TWO CLASSES OF MATTER, there would be a
vast spectrum of particles of various ages.  If our solar
system condensed from the remains of some cosmic explosion,
then most of Earth's matter would be of the same age;

Horace Heffner wrote:

Thus creating one of the classes of matter - "billions of
years old matter."

Jack Smith wrote:

so, unless extreme care were taken, the spread of a
spectral line would be very small and easily ignored.

Horace Heffner wrote:

The other class of matter I proposed was newly created
electron-positron pairs, i.e. the class of "brand-new
microseconds old matter."

There is plenty of experimental evidence that both classes
have precisely the same mass/charge ratio.

Jack writes:

It's possible that the creation of electron - positron
pairs is the same as what happens in Hoyle's "continuous
creation of matter" theory.  But wouldn't that imply that
the universe should have matter and anti-matter coexisitng
in close quarters?

It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
continuous creation of matter.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 21:13:58 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:03:34 CDT
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>From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:23:29 -0700
>
>
>
>Adam Cox wrote:
> >
> > I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates 
>a
> > magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?
> >
>
>Of course! Larson's Reciprocal System is clear about it.  It's not the
>charge
>anyway, it's the electron, whether or not it's charged.  The magnetic
>field
>is the two dimensional residue of three dimensional gravity when one
>of its three dimensions is partially neutralized by the one dimensional
>motion
>of the electron. See http://www.interpres.cz/sr/ce/dimmot.htm
>
>Hoyt Stearns
>Phoenix
>--
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
><< hoyt-stearns.vcf >>

Very interesting...

Thanx
Merlyn

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 21:31:46 2000
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I have heard that cones work also, though presumably not as well (but they 
don't have to line up with North ;-)

I believe the "Dunce Cap" was originally designed to make use of this as 
therapy, to try to make the problem students smarter.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 22:29:43 2000
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Subject: Re: Force on an electron
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:28:21 CDT
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Thank Mike,

I spent some time with my college Calculus Texts and came up with something 
a little more explicit, but thats because I know what I am trying to do and 
I really can't explain it properly without giving the whole thing away, 
which I am not yet prepared to do, its the classic lone inventor syndrome, 
Its not that I'm paranoid or suspicious, its just hard to describe it to 
someone else.

Merlyn

>From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Force on an electron
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:18:15 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Ps how does cos(alpha) ds = dr ??
> >
> > >In this case the integral you want is (using S for the integral sign)
> > >S E cos(alpha) ds, where ds is incremental distance along the path, and
> > >alpha is the angle between ds and E.
>
>Good question. In general, cos(alpha) ds  is not dr.  Here I had already
>jumped ahead ( I shouldn't have done so) to the special case where E has
>only a radial direction component, E = E_r. Then the angle alpha is also
>the angle between ds and dr.  Now, in this case, draw a short vector ds
>along your integration path. The distance it advances in radius is
>cos(alpha) ds.
>
>If E had an azimuthal component, then my calculation would be wrong. You
>would have an azimuthal E component if the current in the coil producing
>the axially directed magnetic field were to vary in time; it would be just
>conventional induction, as is present in transformers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=====
>Michael J. Schaffer
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 22:29:49 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seen the freenrg "tribo-grav" thread?
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, hank scudder wrote:

> Bill
> 	It sounds like the old farmer who put two tons of chickens in a
> one ton pickup, and as he drove down the road he kept hitting the chicken
> coop with a stick. When asked why, he said he had to keep half the
> chickens flying all the time so he wouldn't overload his truck.

As long as the ring-vortices generated by flapping chicken wings tended to
impact a surface outside the truck, that would work.  A pickup truck with
a VERY rusty bed would let the globs of momentum get through to the
ground.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 23:08:50 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:07:37 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:45:40 -0500:
[snip]
>***{The problem is that the Compton effect involves deflection of the
>photons from their original paths--which means: photons redshifted by the
>Compton effect are unidentifiable with regard to source. But the light that
>is the subject of Hubble's theory is from identifiable
>sources--specifically: it is from distant galaxies. Hence we know it has
>not been redshifted by the Compton effect. --MJ}***
[snip]
This is not necessarily a problem. Small deflections tend to be self
compensating i.e. after several deflections the light can once again be
going in the original direction. You see an exaggerated example of this when
you see car headlights through the fog. Light which gets totally scattered
ends up contributing to the microwave background radiation (which therefore
is not an echo of the non-existent big bang).
Note also that distant light sources are somewhat hazy, as would be
expected.
A measurement taken on laser light that has passed through a dense plasma
would be interesting.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 23:11:26 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: FE Device
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At 9:53 PM 9/26/0, Adam Cox wrote:
>Just a note
>
>I am currently working on a FE device based on a monopole generator and some
>equation loopholes when applied to non-linear systems.
>
>Wish me luck!

Best of luck to you, of course!

I would like to add that if you have a monopole then getting free energy is
almost trivial, and getting even more monopoles is probably not so
difficult.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep 26 23:35:24 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 7:21 PM 9/26/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>Those are excellent comments.  The following are
>some preliminary remarks.
>
>Jack Smith
>
>Ray Tomes wrote:
>
>In 1978 Tifft discovered not only the 72 km/s quantum,
>but also quanta of 36 km/s, 24 km/s, 12 km/s, and mentions
>possible 6 and 3 km/s ones also.  He mentions other of
>the above figures in later papers.
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>What is this about?  Is this a theoretical discovery
>or experimental?
>
>Jack writes:
>
>These are astronomical observations.


I don't get it.  How do you observe a 12 km/s quantum of velocity?  To what
kind of thing does the quantum apply?  Surely this is not in reference to
light in a vacuum?


>
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>If continuous creation of matter is occurring, there
>would not be just TWO CLASSES OF MATTER, there would be a
>vast spectrum of particles of various ages.  If our solar
>system condensed from the remains of some cosmic explosion,
>then most of Earth's matter would be of the same age;
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>Thus creating one of the classes of matter - "billions of
>years old matter."
>
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>so, unless extreme care were taken, the spread of a
>spectral line would be very small and easily ignored.
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>The other class of matter I proposed was newly created
>electron-positron pairs, i.e. the class of "brand-new
>microseconds old matter."
>
>There is plenty of experimental evidence that both classes
>have precisely the same mass/charge ratio.
>
>Jack writes:
>
>It's possible that the creation of electron - positron
>pairs is the same as what happens in Hoyle's "continuous
>creation of matter" theory.  But wouldn't that imply that
>the universe should have matter and anti-matter coexisitng
>in close quarters?

I was referring to using the bubble chamber tracks of (new) pairs and old
electrons in order to measure their mass/charge ratio.  The spontaneous
creation of matter out in space would not be relevant to this test.  BTW,
it is probably reasonable that pairs ARE created by energetic bodies, and
by energetic photons in space, and at the Swartzchild radius of black
holes.


>
>It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
>pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
>continuous creation of matter.


Does that matter?  Arp's hypothesis is that particles accumulate mass with
age.  If that is true then there should be a variety of mass/charge ratios
represented in a bubble chamber.  I think this is not the case.  It would
be VERY unlikely that pair creation in an accelerator target should
coincidentally provide pairs that appear to be exactly the same age as
those electrons around it, PLUS all the (old) electrons in the vicinty
should be exactly the same age - unless of course they were (in vast
majority) created in the big bang.  However, if that is true, i.e. that
nearly all electrons are either the age of the universe or brand new, and
share exactly the same mass, then you are essentialy right back to denying
the aging electron theory, and more importantly the reason for the red
shift.

I hope this reasoning doesn't seem too circular for you!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:38:35 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{Diagenesis in rock involves a steady increase in the strength and
>density of the rock, over time, due to the deposition of minerals by the
>water that percolates through it. The push theory of gravitation requires
>that a similar process take place in matter.
  <snip>
>But if you are standing on
>the surface of the Earth, a tiny percentage of those that would otherwise
>rise up to hit you from below will be absorbed by the Earth. Result: a net
>force--gravity--pushing you toward the Earth.

>If the push theory of gravity is true, then over astonomically vast spans
>of time the accumulation of absorbed ultramundane corpuscles would, of
>necessity, result in an increase in the mass of the atoms of which matter
>is composed. 

And, by extension, what we know as gravity would have to increase over
time as the increased mass becomes more effective in blocking the
"corpuscles."

A thought:  Large dinosaurs are a major problem for paleontology
because they're too massive -- and weigh too much for their bones and
muscles -- to have existed on today's Earth.  Is it possible that in
the relatively brief span of time (speaking astronomically) since the
dinosaurs' demise that the "gravity" of the Earth could have
increased?

Another thought:  Wouldn't a change in mass of particles in different
parts of the universe imply that the physical "constants" may not be
so constant?

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 01:11:30 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Mean free path
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:08:45 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
gasses).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 01:40:45 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re Seeing Red
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:39:34 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:52:22 -0700, "Frederick Sparber"
<fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>Case in point, the biblical people like Adam through Noah had lifespans 
>of  Nine Hundred years or more, indicated that c was much greater than
>it is now and the Earth was circling the Sun about Eight Times it's present rate
>ie., it's mass was substantially less than it's present value. 

The mass of an object is immaterial to it's orbital distance and speed
(which are related).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 02:26:48 2000
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I wrote:

Fixed my scale problems and tried some more tests.

I warmed my test bottle of powdered clay with a hair dryer. The 
few-milligram weight loss appears and then disappears slowly over 
several minutes. I can accelerate the rate at which the effect goes 
away by blowing on the bottle with cool air. Without the clay mass 
within warmed up to provide thermal mass, the outer bottle cools 
faster and the effect is gone.

This also explains why I apparently got better results at night than 
in the day: bigger heat differential between the warm bottle and the 
cooler night air.

Fun while it lasted!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 03:41:27 2000
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Subject: Re: Re Seeing Red
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dean T. Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: Re Seeing Red

Dean T. Miller wrote:


> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:52:22 -0700, "Frederick Sparber"
> <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Case in point, the biblical people like Adam through Noah had lifespans
> >of  Nine Hundred years or more, indicated that c was much greater than
> >it is now and the Earth was circling the Sun about Eight Times it's present rate
> >ie., it's mass was substantially less than it's present value.
>
> The mass of an object is immaterial to it's orbital distance and speed
> (which are related).

What??

Earth's Present Mass = 5.98E24 Kg

Earth's Present Orbital Radius Around the Sun = 1.496E11 Meters

Earth's Present Orbital Velocity Around the Sun =  2.98E4 Meters/Second

The Sun's Present Mass = 1.991E30 Kg

Present Centrifugal Force of the Earth = M*v^2/1.496E11 = 3.5497E22 Newtons

Present Gravitational Balancing Force Between The Sun and The Earth:
 G*Ms*Me/R^2 = 6.67E-11*1.991E30*5.98E24/(1.496E11)^2 = 3.548E22 Newtons (close)

Now, drop the mass of the Sun and the Earth to 1.991E29 Kg and 5.98E23 Kg respectively,and
speed up the Earth's Orbital Velocity Around the Sun to 2.98E5 Meters/Second Allowing
that M'  =  E/ c^2'  (Energy E and Momentum Mv are Constant)and G has to change to G'
in direct proportion to delta c.  Then using high school level algebra calculate the length of
the "Biblical/Antediluvian" Year and the acceleration of gravity on the Earth spinning
so that the days are 1/10th as long as at present (making for a day with no darkness to speak
of)
and a very pleasant climate, conducive to an era of copius vegetation production and
"overweight dinosaurs and mammoths". And the Earth's "Biblical/Antediluvian" Orbital distance
from the Sun, and a rather sudden change in it's radius that caused "The Great Flood".  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 04:28:48 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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Premise:

The speed of light in our Galaxy in "Biblical/Antediluvian times was ~ 3.16 times as fast
as it is at present, and is steadily decreasing as our Galaxy "Spirals" into the
Black Hole at it's center.

Since M = E/c'^2 in Biblical/Antediluvian times our Solar system was lighter.

Will it "Recycle", some time?

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 06:19:08 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:33:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:45:40 -0500:
>[snip]
>>***{The problem is that the Compton effect involves deflection of the
>>photons from their original paths--which means: photons redshifted by the
>>Compton effect are unidentifiable with regard to source. But the light that
>>is the subject of Hubble's theory is from identifiable
>>sources--specifically: it is from distant galaxies. Hence we know it has
>>not been redshifted by the Compton effect. --MJ}***
>[snip]
>This is not necessarily a problem. Small deflections tend to be self
>compensating i.e. after several deflections the light can once again be
>going in the original direction. You see an exaggerated example of this when
>you see car headlights through the fog. Light which gets totally scattered
>ends up contributing to the microwave background radiation (which therefore
>is not an echo of the non-existent big bang).
>Note also that distant light sources are somewhat hazy, as would be
>expected.

***{That haze is from nearby causes: atmospheric distortion, lens
imperfections, etc. If it were from collision events that occurred in the
intergalactic deep, then it would not be identifiable as to source, unless
the deflection were at some tiny, tiny fraction of a degree. But, in that
case, the redshift would be negligible. Remember: galaxies with extreme
redshifts can only be observed with the very largest telescopes, under the
very best conditions, because their angular diameters are at tiny, tiny
fractions of a degree. Because of that, I just don't think the Compton
effect is a viable hypothesis to explain this effect.  --MJ}***

>A measurement taken on laser light that has passed through a dense plasma
>would be interesting.
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 06:32:04 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 05:07 PM 9/27/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

This is not necessarily a problem. Small deflections tend to be self
>compensating i.e. after several deflections the light can once again be
>going in the original direction.

Mitchell's right on this one, Robin.  Any such deflections along the way 
would completely spoil the point-like image we observe for distant 
stars.  In fact, distant stars are routinely used as point sources of light 
to test telescope optics.  The size of the observed spot is only 
"diffraction limited"...a function of the telescope parameters....not the 
nature of the intervening space between us and the star.

OK, one or two of the photons might arrive along paths that appeared to be 
undisturbed but the majority would be diffused, resulting in the kind of 
image you get here on Earth when you view a distant lamp in a rainstorm.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 07:01:14 2000
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From: JedRothwell infinite-energy.com
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: NYTimes.com Article: A Great Hope of Physics Falls on Hard Times 
Message-Id: <20000927135714.076BB24523 email4.lga2.nytimes.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:57:14 -0400 (EDT)
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This article from NYTimes.com 
has been sent to you by Jed JedRothwell infinite-energy.com.

Vorts

Here is an important article from the N.Y. Times web site. An option at the top of the page says "e-mail this to a friend," so I guess I am not violating copyright or breaking the rules by e-mailing it to this list.

- Jed

Jed
JedRothwell infinite-energy.com

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A Great Hope of Physics Falls on Hard Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/26/science/26NIF.html

September 26, 2000

By JAMES GLANZ

LIVERMORE, Calif.   Two years ago at a scientific conference in
Madison, Wis., a physicist named E. Michael Campbell gave a
triumphant progress report on a project to build a stadium-size
laser at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. 

 Somehow the big laser, which would be the most powerful ever
built, had won Congressional approval despite a construction cost
of $1.2 billion and another $1 billion for research and
development.

 The key to this remarkable success, the physicist said, could be
found in its threefold attraction to science and society. When the
project was completed in 2004, its 192 individual laser beams would
converge on a tiny fuel pellet, crushing and heating it until
fusion reactions among its atoms began spewing out nuclear energy.

 Those experiments would allow bomb makers to study the physics of
nuclear weapons without exploding them, helping to assure the
reliability of the nation's nuclear stockpile. They would also let
engineers explore the possibility of commercial power plants based
on this type of "laser fusion," and they would offer scientists the
chance to probe matter under conditions never before created in a
laboratory.

 After using those advantages to help score a victory for the
project, called the National Ignition Facility, or N.I.F., the
scientist directing the project told the conference, "I see how
hard it is to get a billion dollars."

 Participants listened with a mixture of envy and admiration to the
man they knew as Dr. Campbell. Many were deeply dispirited by
recent revelations of sky-high costs, technical questions and an
overoptimistic sales message that would soon bring Congressional
wrath, and its budget ax, down on another titanic fusion project,
this one based on powerful magnetic fields and called the
International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.

 Now, after a series of plot twists, the fabulous laser could face
a similar fate. Events since that conference have damaged
Livermore's credibility, derailed scientists' careers and perhaps
threatened the nation's ability to safeguard its nuclear stockpile.
Mr. Campbell even turned out not to have the Princeton Ph.D. that
his peers assumed he had.

 Moreover, in an ominous echo of his words in Madison, N.I.F. will
cost at least $1 billion more than originally expected. If the
project survives, it may have reached its nadir on Sept. 7, when
project officials were denounced on the floor of the United States
Senate.

 As negotiations between the House and Senate for the fiscal 2001
budget conclude, lawmakers must now decide whether to move about
$135 million to N.I.F. construction. The reallocation, which has
been requested by the Energy Department, would nearly triple the
Clinton administration's original request for the project and save
it for the time being.

 Saying that its scientists simply underestimated the complexity of
building the laser, laboratory officials dismiss all accusations
that technical problems were intentionally covered up. Still, the
plunge in the project's political stock has been breathtaking.

 "It looked as if they had all the answers, and they were moving on
the project," said Dr. Dale M. Meade, head of advanced fusion
concepts at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, who attended
the Madison meeting and who specializes in the sort of fusion that
the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor might have
produced. "And since that time, the roof has fallen in on them."

 Even so, Dr. George H. Miller, a former nuclear weapons designer,
who is now associate director for National Ignition Facility
programs at Livermore, argues that the laser is the only vehicle
for scientists to study the high temperatures and densities of
matter that occur in an exploding nuclear weapon   except, of
course, in actual nuclear tests, which the nation has not conducted
since declaring a moratorium on them in 1992.

 "N.I.F. is one of the major experimental facilities that we were
lacking when we ended nuclear testing," Dr. Miller said. The
purpose of the laser, he said, is to "allow us to maintain our
nuclear deterrent, and to maintain it in a condition that is safe
and reliable   but do it without nuclear testing."

 The American program to achieve that goal, called science-based
stockpile stewardship, would eventually rely on data from the
laser, lower- energy experiments involving high explosives, and
information from nuclear explosions before the moratorium. Powerful
computers would weave together all of that data as a substitute for
actual tests.

 Dr. Miller said it was crucial that fuel pellets crushed by the
laser beams become hot and dense enough to achieve a condition
called ignition, in which fusion reactions are pouring out
relatively large amounts of energy, just as a bomb does. If the
pellets do not ignite, he said, "it will call into question whether
or not the whole stockpile stewardship paradigm will work."

 Physicists have an imperfect understanding of the physics of
ignition, and Dr. Miller concedes that that issue was controversial
even when it was assumed that the laser could be built exactly as
planned. It still is not known, for example, whether the precisely
spherical implosion of the pellets needed for ignition can be
achieved, since even tiny irregularities can cause energy to squirt
out sideways and quench the process.

 Dr. Gerald A. Navratil, an applied physicist at Columbia
University, said that because numerous scientific review panels
gave the laser project a passing grade, its ballooning costs and
technical problems raised still more troubling questions.

 "Even as an insider, you have to say that it causes you to
question the way the system works today," Dr. Navratil said. "I
think it would benefit science if we learn from this and make sure
it doesn't happen again."

 A commentary published in the Sept. 14 issue of the journal Nature
by Dr. Stephen Bodner, former head of laser fusion at the United
States Naval Research Laboratory, and Christopher Paine, a senior
researcher at the Natural Resources Defense Council, titled "When
Peer Review Fails," came to similar conclusions on the project's
history. "The advocates became captives to their own rhetoric, and
dissenting voices were ignored," those authors wrote.

 Ground was broken for the National Ignition Facility in 1997. Late
the next year after the Madison conference, in the first hint that
something was seriously wrong, an internal Livermore review led by
Dr. Edward I. Moses, an engineer familiar with large projects,
determined that constructing the laser would cost far more than
physicists on the project had estimated, in part because the
physicists in charge had not considered the difficulty involved in
putting together the individual high-tech pieces.

 But as construction continued, officials at Livermore, including
Dr. C. Bruce Tarter, the laboratory's director, failed to pass that
information along to Energy Secretary Bill Richardson before he
gave a speech in June of last year hailing the project as on time
and within its budget.

 "Each person would be told that there was a potential   because
that is the way it was phrased for a long time   a potential
serious issue," said Dr. Tarter. "The reaction was, `How can that
be?' And can't possibly be right."

 Dr. Moses' work turned out to be solid. A few months after the
disastrous speech by Mr. Richardson, anonymous faxes to Livermore
revealed that Mr. Campbell did not actually have the doctorate that
he had allowed the laboratory to believe he had. Mr. Campbell
eventually resigned. At about the same time, Mr. Richardson, having
learned of the overruns, angrily announced a management shake-up at
the project, a large fine for the University of California, which
manages the lab under contract with the Energy Department, and
other measures intended to put the project back on track.

 Finally, the General Accounting Office, the Congressional auditing
agency, reported last month that the true costs of the project
would be at least $4 billion and that it would not be finished
before 2008. The agency also confirmed that the laboratory and
low-level Energy Department officials had failed to disclose the
problems once they knew of them.

 "They lied to us," Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, said
during budget deliberations on Sept. 7. "They simply lied to us."

 Mr. Richardson has moved to save the project from collapse by
asking that Congress reallocate $135 million from other programs to
N.I.F. construction in the fiscal year 2001, nearly tripling the
Clinton administration's original request. Of that effort, Senator
Pete V. Domenici, the New Mexico Republican who heads the energy
subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said he
believed that the "G.A.O. report will haunt it."

 The project's immediate fate rests with end-of-year budget
negotiations in Congress. For their part, project officials say
that the overruns amount to $1 billion, and that the other costs
found by G.A.O. had already been in the laser's operating budget
and were not a surprise.

 These officials also point out that it was an internal review at
Livermore that turned up the problems in the first place after
numerous external reviews missed them, and they say that there had
never been intentional deception about the overruns   simply a
particularly ill-timed period of disbelief and confusion leading up
to Mr. Richardson's speech.

 Last week, walking through the cavernous N.I.F. building, which is
mostly complete although no laser components have yet been
installed, Dr. Moses said that the project's budget was now
realistic and that all remaining engineering problems could be
overcome.

 "The only thing that'll stop us is people not giving us the
money," said Dr. Moses, who is now the laser's project manager, as
he looked down from a walkway onto a complex of huge concrete
braces, reminiscent of an indoor Stonehenge, but painted in pastels
and designed to hold laser optics and long "beam tubes" through
which the light would travel.

 Dr. Moses compares the earlier management problems to those that
arise when technology visionaries in private industry form
companies but lack practical and organizational expertise. He said
that a large part of the cost increases came about because project
officials simply did not think about how the laser parts would
actually be put together.

 For example, he said, the beam tubes must remain free of dust that
could drift onto optics and heat up, burning the optical surfaces
when the powerful laser light flashed upon them. But while the
tubes are constructed in special factory clean rooms, they must be
joined together in the N.I.F. building, which would ordinarily
contain dust. Project officials had not thought about those things.

 "When you started thinking about those, which any project manager
does, you realize there was a hole in the organization   there was
a hole in the plan," Dr. Moses said.

 Project critics maintain that the final set of optics that will
focus the intense beams onto the target will be susceptible to
damage no matter how clean they are. But Dr. Moses said that at
worst, the problem could be dealt with by changing those optics
occasionally, and he hinted that the laboratory was close to a
technical solution involving a treatment, called annealing, of the
surfaces.

 Still, the project faces other doubts.

 At one point, physicists believed that a much smaller laser at
Livermore, called Nova, would ignite its pellets. Nova never came
close, but Dr. Miller says that scientists understand the process
much better now and that he thinks the odds are good for N.I.F. The
project's other credibility problems, however, have caused this
otherwise obscure chapter of science history to be much discussed
recently.

 The immense price tag for N.I.F., even if it works perfectly and
ignites, has also eroded hopes that anything resembling this kind
of laser technology can ever be used economically to create
commercial power.

 Even basic scientists, who once could not wait to tether their
wagons to a machine they could never afford on their own, are
having second thoughts. That possibility once seemed "pretty
exciting" to some scientists, said Dr. Michael E. Mauel, a
physicist at Columbia University. Now, he said, the idea sounds
"not very cost effective." 
  &nbsp;    


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http://www.nytimes.com

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 07:22:37 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: web site
In-Reply-To: <39D1340A.168DEC76 ix.netcom.com>
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Ed wrote a rather dry description of his web site:

http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html

Let me add a more enthusiastic note:

This web site is SUPERB. All of the papers written by Ed Storms about cold 
fusion are REQUIRED READING for anyone who wants to know about the field. I 
applaud him for making this material available to everyone. I wish the 
other leading CF scientists would follow his example.

There is one other paper I hope Ed can add to the site eventually: "How to 
Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect," published in Fusion Technology.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 07:28:58 2000
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Oops! It looks like the article did come through from the Times site, after 
a while. Sorry the spam the list with two copies. Anyway, it is an 
important article about conventional inertial fusion.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 07:57:31 2000
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References: <v01530502b5f741bf15b4 [12.21.211.69]>
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Jack Smith wrote:

It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
continuous creation of matter.

Horace Heffner wrote:

Does that matter?  Arp's hypothesis is that particles
accumulate mass with age.

Jack Smith wrote:

Arp has apparently adopted Fred Hoyle's theory as being most
applicable to his observations -- I think in the spirit of
"completing the paperwork."  What's important here are the
observations, not the theory.  (Quasars as new matter is such
a revolutionary concept that it is not surprising that
theoretical development is not far along.)

Horace Heffner wrote:

If that is true then there should be a
variety of mass/charge ratios represented in a
bubble chamber.  I think this is not the case.

Hi Horace,

It seems that you are assuming that, in new matter, the charge
stays constant while the mass increases.  Perhaps what is
constant is the mass/charge ratio.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 10:06:21 2000
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Better insulation in your Garage,perhaps?   :-)

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/26/scotus.heatdetector.ap/index.html

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 11:00:37 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:49:12 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path
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At 7:08 PM 9/27/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
>particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
>(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
>gasses).


This is not from a reference, but it makes common sense that if the radii
are r and R, that the mean free path would be calculated based on a radius
of (R + r)/2, because, ideally, a collison results when the two particles
are at separation R + r, which does not differ from a separation of 2 (R +
r)/2. This applies only for collisions of mixed types.  In a mixture of 2
noble gasses there would be 3 collision types, small-small, small-large,
and large-large, so the mean free path would have to computed as a weighted
average for each of the 3 collision types, weighted based on the
probability of each type of collision.  If the relative concentrations are
p for large and q for small, where p + q = 1, then the probability of a
small-small collision is q^2, the probability of a large-large collision is
p^2, and thus the remaining probability of a mixed collision is (1 - p^2 -
q^2).  Let N/V be the number of particles N per volume V, and k = (4 Pi
2^0.5).

Chose a particle at random.  There is probabillity p it is large.  There is
probability p that it will hit a large particle, with mean free path length
L_pp:

    L_pp = V/(k p N R^2)

and probability q that it will hit a small particle, with mean free path
length L_ps:

    L_pq = 4 V/(k q N (R + r)^2)

There is a probability q that the particle we chose was small.  In that
case the   the mean free path L_qp of a collision of it with a large
particle is

    L_qp = 4 V/(k p N (R + r)^2)

We need only further consider the small-small collisions, which have mean
free path length

    L_qq = V/(k q N r^2)

Noting that we have double counted every collision, the total mean free
path is given by the weighted average:

    L =  (p L_pp + p L_pq + q L_qp + q L_qq)/2

    L =  (p [V/(k p N R^2)] + p [4 V/(k q N (R + r)^2)]

              + q [4 V/(k p N (R + r)^2)] + q [V/(k q N r^2)])/2

    L =  V/(2 k N R^2) + 2 V/(k (q/p) N (R + r)^2)]

              + 2 V/(k (p/q) N (R + r)^2) + V/(2 k N r^2)

    L =  (k/2) (V/N) [ 1/R^2 + (4p/q)/(R + r)^2

              + (4q/p)/(R + r)^2 + 1/r^2 ]


I hope I got all that right, but I am sure you get the gist of the idea.  I
hope it is correct and useful to you.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 11:46:14 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:37:47 -0400
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Cold Fusioneers BEWARE.
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Fred writes:
>Better insulation in your Garage,perhaps?   :-)
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/26/scotus.heatdetector.ap/index.html
>
>Regards,    Frederick

This looks like another attempt to confuse the basic issue of what
constitutes probable cause for obtaining a warrant.  If someone puts a roast
in the oven, and a thermal emission is recorded (even a nocturnal one), does
the state have the authority to search the house?  I would say not, but all
kinds of ridiculous profiling is being "legally" done today, and it can only
come to one end.  We are all exhibiting some kind of behavior that would
justify a search warrant, even as we sleep.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 12:53:45 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path
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At 7:08 PM 9/27/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
>particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
>(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
>gasses).


This is not from a reference, but it makes common sense that if the radii
are r and R, that the mean free path would be calculated based on a radius
of (R + r)/2, because, ideally, a collison results when the two particles
are at separation R + r, which does not differ from a separation of 2 (R +
r)/2. This applies only for collisions of mixed types.

In a mixture of 2 noble gasses there would be 3 collision types,
small-small, small-large, and large-large.  If the relative concentrations
are p for large and q for small, where p + q = 1, then the probability of a
small-small collision is q^2, the probability of a large-large collision is
p^2, and thus the remaining probability of a mixed collision is (1 - p^2 -
q^2).  Let n' = N/V be the number of particles N per volume V, and k = (4
Pi 2^0.5).

The mean free path L is given by:

   L = V/(k r^2 N)

and is related to the collision cross section sigma by:

  1/(sigma L) = N/V

so sigma is provided by:

   sigma = (V/N) 1/L = (V/N) (k r^2 N)/V = k r^2

and

  L = (V/N) (1/sigma)

Cross sections can be weighted-averaged based on particle density.  So, for
a small particle:

  sigma_r = k r^2

  sigma_R = (k/4)/(R + r)^2

  sigma_avg = q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2

thus the mean free path for a small particle is:

  L_small = (V/N) 1/(q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

Similarly the mean free path for a large particle is:

  L_large = (V/N) 1/(p  k r^2 + q (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

I don't know that it makes sense to talk about an overall mean free path.

I hope I got it right this time!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 13:09:09 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path
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At 9:49 AM 9/27/0, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Noting that we have double counted every collision, the total mean free
>path is given by the weighted average:
>
>    L =  (p L_pp + p L_pq + q L_qp + q L_qq)/2
>


Darn!  I just noticed that this statement is plain wrong!  If one gas is a
tiny fraction of the total, you can not include its huge MFP for its own
collisons with itself to the average.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 13:25:47 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 6:56 AM 9/27/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
>pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
>continuous creation of matter.
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>Does that matter?  Arp's hypothesis is that particles
>accumulate mass with age.
>
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>Arp has apparently adopted Fred Hoyle's theory as being most
>applicable to his observations -- I think in the spirit of
>"completing the paperwork."  What's important here are the
>observations, not the theory.  (Quasars as new matter is such
>a revolutionary concept that it is not surprising that
>theoretical development is not far along.)


My points are focused on the particle aging process, not the time of origin
or means of creation, which I think is immaterial to the arguments I have
put forward.


>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>If that is true then there should be a
>variety of mass/charge ratios represented in a
>bubble chamber.  I think this is not the case.
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>It seems that you are assuming that, in new matter, the charge
>stays constant while the mass increases.  Perhaps what is
>constant is the mass/charge ratio.
>
>Jack Smith


Intersting thought!   My thinking was that if you have a constant
mass/charge ratio, then you do not get a red shift, but after considering
further, it is more complicated than that.  A simplified Newtonian style
background and look at the Bohr model follows.

The kinetic energy of an (old or new) electron in orbit radius r is given by:

(1)    K = q^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)(v^2)

So velocity:

(2)    v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)(r)(m))^0.5

Given m1 = mass of new (light) electron, m2 = mass of old (heavy) electron,
v1 velocity of light electron, v2 velocity of heavy, at a given r this
gives:

(3)    v1/v2 = (m2/m1)^0.5

The lighter the particle the faster the particle at a given r.  Similarly
the rotational frequency is proportional to (1/m)^0.5, while momentum and
angular momentum are proportional to (m)^0.5 at a given r, e.g.:

(4)    p = mv = ((m)(q^2)/(4(pi)e0(r))^0.5

Given that the radius is quantized to:

(5)    r = (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)),  for n = 1,2,3, ...

For the Bohr radius (n=1) or any specific quantum state (n>1), using r1 for
light, r2 for heavy, the radius ratio is given by:

(6)    r1/r2 = m2/m1

So, the bigger the mass the smaller the radius and vice versa.

However, we can't just chose mass and velocity any old way.  Let's just
consider ground state for a moment. Substitute n=1 and (5) into (2):

(7)    v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)[(h^2)(e0)/((pi)(q^2)(m))](m))^0.5

Simplifying:

(8)    v^2 = ((q^2)(pi)(m)(q^2))/(4(pi)(e0)(m)(h^2)(e0))

(9)    v^2 = q^4/(4(h^2)(e0^2))

(10)   v = q^2/(2(e0)(h))    (Note that mass cancels)

(11)   q = 1.60x10^-19 coul  (for standard earth electron)

(12)   e0 = 8.85x10^-12 coul^2/nt-m^2

(13)   h = 6.63x10^-34 joule-sec

(14)   v = (1.60x10^-19 coul)^2/(2(8.85x10^-12 coul^2/nt-m^2)
            (6.63x10^-34 joule-sec))

(15)   v = 2.18x10^6 m/s

So, the velocity in a given orbital state is constant, mass independent,
but the mass is changed with age so, if charge remains constant, then the
kinetic energy is also changed, and thus the photons emitted upon state
change are frequency shifted.

But, here is an interesting thought!  Equation (1) indicates that as the
mass increases, so does the energy, thus the energy between quantum steps
should INCREASE with mass, and thus a BLUE SHIFT should occur with age.
However, if m/q = Cmq is constant, then,

(16)   q = Cmq m

and from (10):

(17)   v = (Cmq m)^2/(2(e0)(h))

and from (1):

(18)   K = [Cmq m]^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)([(Cmq m)^2/(2(e0)(h))]^2)


(19)   K = (Cmq)^2 (1/2) (m^5) [1/(2(e0)(h)]^2

so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
strong BLUE SHIFT.

Further, and even more purplexing, is that (18) can be solved for m, and
thus indicates that m is constant!  Unless there is another my typical
amateur blunders, how Arp's theory could be reconciled is a real mystery!
It appears the univers must be getting lighter to justify a red shift, but
even that justification would have its difficulties.

I am hoping Scott will fill us in on the theory when he gets there!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 14:16:56 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:04:03 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 12:19 PM 9/27/00 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

 >so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
>strong BLUE SHIFT.

You must be doing something wrong, Horace.  In my treatise on the Bohr 
atom, the energy of the electron is given by:

                                  m k^2 Z^2 e^4
                       E  =   -  ----------------
                                    2 n^2 hbar^2

where m is the electron mass, Z is the positive nuclear charge, e is the 
electron charge, n is the principle quantum number, and k is "one over four 
pi epsilon nought".

When you plug in Z = 1, and n = 1, this yields E = -13.6 eV....the ground 
state.

Thus the energies are linearly proportional to mass.  Lower the mass and 
you lower the energies (and you lower the diff between adjacent energy levels).



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 15:36:47 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mean free path
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:18:43 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <dso4tssiciird6iakjci4mnpjo70fohnb1 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:45:59 -0800:
[snip]
>I don't know that it makes sense to talk about an overall mean free path.
>
>I hope I got it right this time!  8^)
[snip]
Thanks Horace, I'm primarily interested in the MFP for the small particles
anyway, so your response is ideal.
I hope you don't mind if I wait a couple of days before using it...you might
come up with another correction ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 17:03:21 2000
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:00:45 EDT
Subject: RE: Directed enegy beams that can penetrate metals/gold/aluminum?
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Is anyone aware of any forms of directed energy beams that can penetrate 
metals, gold or aluminum's?  I am aware that magnetic energy may be able to 
penetrate metals and if one could direct a pure magnetic energy beam devoid 
of any electrical fields at a piece of metal it may pass through it.  I am 
not sure as to whether a high intensity directed radio frequency beam in the 
area of UHF (hundreds of megahertz) may pass through metal? I am not sure 
that a high intensity infrared laser beam can pass through metal? Are there 
any other types or forms of directed energy beams that can pass through 
metals? Your comments would be greatly appreciated!

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Web site: http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
Email: Conextom aol.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 17:21:01 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path
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At 8:18 AM 9/28/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Thanks Horace, I'm primarily interested in the MFP for the small particles
>anyway, so your response is ideal.
>I hope you don't mind if I wait a couple of days before using it...you might
>come up with another correction ;).


Good plan!    8^)


(I already sent a small correction some time ago, but I am getting mail
bounces from vortex!  It still hasn't shown up.  Maybe it's those big class
m flares in progress intefering with communications.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 19:05:37 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 4:04 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote:
>At 12:19 PM 9/27/00 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> >so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
>>strong BLUE SHIFT.
>
>You must be doing something wrong, Horace.



It wouldn't be the first time!  8^)  However, your formula provides

   E ~ m^5

by simple inspection.  You have to keep in mind that, I was mainly
entertaining the notion that m/q  (or m/e  your notation below) is
constant, that CHARGE VARIES WITH MASS as the mass gets older.  Thus e is a
variable and must be set to be a function of mass, or vice versa.  However,
in the course of evaluating that assumption, I noticed that, even with
charge fixed, things go the wrong way, towards blue shift.  They go the
wrong way even MUCH faster if you assume m/e fixed.



>In my treatise on the Bohr
>atom, the energy of the electron is given by:
>
>                                  m k^2 Z^2 e^4
>                       E  =   -  ----------------
>                                    2 n^2 hbar^2
>
>where m is the electron mass, Z is the positive nuclear charge, e is the
>electron charge, n is the principle quantum number, and k is "one over four
>pi epsilon nought".



So you can see by simple inspection of the above that since e proportional
to m you have E proportional to m^5, just as I noted originally.


>
>When you plug in Z = 1, and n = 1, this yields E = -13.6 eV....the ground
>state.
>
>Thus the energies are linearly proportional to mass.  Lower the mass and
>you lower the energies (and you lower the diff between adjacent energy levels).




But that is exactly what I was saying!  Or at least the converse.  You
RAISE the mass (i.e. by aging) and you INCREASE the energy and you get a
BLUE shift.  It gets even worse when you assume m/e constant, because then
E ~ m^5.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 19:16:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:22:06 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path (corrected)
Resent-Message-ID: <"lEDer1.0.nj.rdgqv" mx1>
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I dont know what is wwrong with communications, but I am not getting some
posts back from vortex, so I resubmit them.  They may show up when some
links come back up.  Here is this (hopefully final) corrected version.

At 7:08 PM 9/27/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
>particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
>(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
>gasses).


This is not from a reference, but it makes common sense that if the radii
are r and R, that the mean free path would be calculated based on a radius
of (R + r)/2, because, ideally, a collison results when the two particles
are at separation R + r, which does not differ from a separation of 2 (R +
r)/2. This applies only for collisions of mixed types.

In a mixture of 2 noble gasses there would be 3 collision types,
small-small, small-large, and large-large.  If the relative concentrations
are p for large and q for small, where p + q = 1, then the probability of a
small-small collision is q^2, the probability of a large-large collision is
p^2, and thus the remaining probability of a mixed collision is (1 - p^2 -
q^2).  Let n' = N/V be the number of particles N per volume V, and k = (4
Pi 2^0.5).

The mean free path L is given by:

   L = V/(k r^2 N)

and is related to the collision cross section sigma by:

  1/(sigma L) = N/V

so sigma is provided by:

   sigma = (V/N) 1/L = (V/N) (k r^2 N)/V = k r^2

and

  L = (V/N) (1/sigma)

Cross sections can be weighted-averaged based on particle density.  So, for
a small particle:

  sigma_r = k r^2

  sigma_R = (k/4)/(R + r)^2

  sigma_avg = q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2

thus the mean free path for a small particle is:

  L_small = (V/N) 1/(q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

Similarly the mean free path for a large particle is:

  L_large = (V/N) 1/(p  k R^2 + q (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

I don't know that it makes sense to talk about an overall mean free path.

I hope I got it right this time!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 19:16:57 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 4:04 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote:
>At 12:19 PM 9/27/00 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> >so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
>>strong BLUE SHIFT.
>
>You must be doing something wrong, Horace.



It wouldn't be the first time!  8^)  However, your formula provides

   E ~ m^5

by simple inspection.  You have to keep in mind that, I was mainly
entertaining the notion that m/q  (or m/e  your notation below) is
constant, that CHARGE VARIES WITH MASS as the mass gets older.  Thus e is a
variable and must be set to be a function of mass, or vice versa.  However,
in the course of evaluating that assumption, I noticed that, even with
charge fixed, things go the wrong way, towards blue shift.  They go the
wrong way even MUCH faster if you assume m/e fixed.



>In my treatise on the Bohr
>atom, the energy of the electron is given by:
>
>                                  m k^2 Z^2 e^4
>                       E  =   -  ----------------
>                                    2 n^2 hbar^2
>
>where m is the electron mass, Z is the positive nuclear charge, e is the
>electron charge, n is the principle quantum number, and k is "one over four
>pi epsilon nought".



So you can see by simple inspection of the above that since e proportional
to m you have E proportional to m^5, just as I noted originally.


>
>When you plug in Z = 1, and n = 1, this yields E = -13.6 eV....the ground
>state.
>
>Thus the energies are linearly proportional to mass.  Lower the mass and
>you lower the energies (and you lower the diff between adjacent energy levels).




But that is exactly what I was saying!  Or at least the converse.  You
RAISE the mass (i.e. by aging) and you INCREASE the energy and you get a
BLUE shift.  It gets even worse when you assume m/e constant, because then
E ~ m^5.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 19:17:09 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 6:56 AM 9/27/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
>pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
>continuous creation of matter.
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>Does that matter?  Arp's hypothesis is that particles
>accumulate mass with age.
>
>Jack Smith wrote:
>
>Arp has apparently adopted Fred Hoyle's theory as being most
>applicable to his observations -- I think in the spirit of
>"completing the paperwork."  What's important here are the
>observations, not the theory.  (Quasars as new matter is such
>a revolutionary concept that it is not surprising that
>theoretical development is not far along.)


My points are focused on the particle aging process, not the time of origin
or means of creation, which I think is immaterial to the arguments I have
put forward.


>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>If that is true then there should be a
>variety of mass/charge ratios represented in a
>bubble chamber.  I think this is not the case.
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>It seems that you are assuming that, in new matter, the charge
>stays constant while the mass increases.  Perhaps what is
>constant is the mass/charge ratio.
>
>Jack Smith


Intersting thought!   My thinking was that if you have a constant
mass/charge ratio, then you do not get a red shift, but after considering
further, it is more complicated than that.  A simplified Newtonian style
background and look at the Bohr model follows.

The kinetic energy of an (old or new) electron in orbit radius r is given by:

(1)    K = q^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)(v^2)

So velocity:

(2)    v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)(r)(m))^0.5

Given m1 = mass of new (light) electron, m2 = mass of old (heavy) electron,
v1 velocity of light electron, v2 velocity of heavy, at a given r this
gives:

(3)    v1/v2 = (m2/m1)^0.5

The lighter the particle the faster the particle at a given r.  Similarly
the rotational frequency is proportional to (1/m)^0.5, while momentum and
angular momentum are proportional to (m)^0.5 at a given r, e.g.:

(4)    p = mv = ((m)(q^2)/(4(pi)e0(r))^0.5

Given that the radius is quantized to:

(5)    r = (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)),  for n = 1,2,3, ...

For the Bohr radius (n=1) or any specific quantum state (n>1), using r1 for
light, r2 for heavy, the radius ratio is given by:

(6)    r1/r2 = m2/m1

So, the bigger the mass the smaller the radius and vice versa.

However, we can't just chose mass and velocity any old way.  Let's just
consider ground state for a moment. Substitute n=1 and (5) into (2):

(7)    v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)[(h^2)(e0)/((pi)(q^2)(m))](m))^0.5

Simplifying:

(8)    v^2 = ((q^2)(pi)(m)(q^2))/(4(pi)(e0)(m)(h^2)(e0))

(9)    v^2 = q^4/(4(h^2)(e0^2))

(10)   v = q^2/(2(e0)(h))    (Note that mass cancels)

(11)   q = 1.60x10^-19 coul  (for standard earth electron)

(12)   e0 = 8.85x10^-12 coul^2/nt-m^2

(13)   h = 6.63x10^-34 joule-sec

(14)   v = (1.60x10^-19 coul)^2/(2(8.85x10^-12 coul^2/nt-m^2)
            (6.63x10^-34 joule-sec))

(15)   v = 2.18x10^6 m/s

So, the velocity in a given orbital state is constant, mass independent,
but the mass is changed with age so, if charge remains constant, then the
kinetic energy is also changed, and thus the photons emitted upon state
change are frequency shifted.

But, here is an interesting thought!  Equation (1) indicates that as the
mass increases, so does the energy, thus the energy between quantum steps
should INCREASE with mass, and thus a BLUE SHIFT should occur with age.
However, if m/q = Cmq is constant, then,

(16)   q = Cmq m

and from (10):

(17)   v = (Cmq m)^2/(2(e0)(h))

and from (1):

(18)   K = [Cmq m]^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)([(Cmq m)^2/(2(e0)(h))]^2)


(19)   K = (Cmq)^2 (1/2) (m^5) [1/(2(e0)(h)]^2

so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
strong BLUE SHIFT.

Further, and even more purplexing, is that (18) can be solved for m, and
thus indicates that m is constant!  Unless there is another my typical
amateur blunders, how Arp's theory could be reconciled is a real mystery!
It appears the univers must be getting lighter to justify a red shift, but
even that justification would have its difficulties.

I am hoping Scott will fill us in on the theory when he gets there!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 19:17:51 2000
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Subject: Re: Mean free path
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At 7:08 PM 9/27/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
>particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
>(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
>gasses).


This is not from a reference, but it makes common sense that if the radii
are r and R, that the mean free path would be calculated based on a radius
of (R + r)/2, because, ideally, a collison results when the two particles
are at separation R + r, which does not differ from a separation of 2 (R +
r)/2. This applies only for collisions of mixed types.

In a mixture of 2 noble gasses there would be 3 collision types,
small-small, small-large, and large-large.  If the relative concentrations
are p for large and q for small, where p + q = 1, then the probability of a
small-small collision is q^2, the probability of a large-large collision is
p^2, and thus the remaining probability of a mixed collision is (1 - p^2 -
q^2).  Let n' = N/V be the number of particles N per volume V, and k = (4
Pi 2^0.5).

The mean free path L is given by:

   L = V/(k r^2 N)

and is related to the collision cross section sigma by:

  1/(sigma L) = N/V

so sigma is provided by:

   sigma = (V/N) 1/L = (V/N) (k r^2 N)/V = k r^2

and

  L = (V/N) (1/sigma)

Cross sections can be weighted-averaged based on particle density.  So, for
a small particle:

  sigma_r = k r^2

  sigma_R = (k/4)/(R + r)^2

  sigma_avg = q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2

thus the mean free path for a small particle is:

  L_small = (V/N) 1/(q  k r^2 + p (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

Similarly the mean free path for a large particle is:

  L_large = (V/N) 1/(p  k R^2 + q (k/4)/(R + r)^2)

I don't know that it makes sense to talk about an overall mean free path.

I hope I got it right this time!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 20:31:04 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red (proof Arp not right)
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At 8:00 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote:
>At 04:42 PM 9/27/2000 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>But that is exactly what I was saying!  Or at least the converse.  You
>>RAISE the mass (i.e. by aging) and you INCREASE the energy and you get a
>>BLUE shift.  It gets even worse when you assume m/e constant, because then
>>E ~ m^5.
>
>....er....uh....then it looks like we're in agreement with Halton Arp.
>New, low mass matter is relatively redshifted.  As it ages and gains mass,
>it blue shifts up to what we call normal here on Earth.


Ohhhhhh!!!  (Slaps forehead!)  Somehow my brain got all backwards in the
process.  I think it is due to a burned-in predisposition to believe
quasars are OLD!   Sometimes it is really hard to shift into a new
paradigm!


>
>hmmmmm.  Why then don't we see a whole lot of the Universe blue shifted
>w.r.t. us?   Are we the oldest matter out there?


Good question!  I don't know what to think.  In fact it is pretty difficult
to think here at all.  I feel like I am living in a combination
construction zone and city dump, due to the remodelling mess.  Inside my
little computer is about the only order left here - my sanctuary!

Let's see.  I think from the prior analysis we have learned that Arp's
hypothesis and the hypothesis of m/a being constant are inconsistent.  That
is because if the ratio m/e is constant then we immediately have that m is
constant and thus Arp's hypothesis is denied.

Further, we know experimentally that m/e is constant, from bubble chamber
tracks, art least for "new" electorns vs "earth matter age" electrons.  As
you say, the fact everything is red shifted with respect to us makes us the
oldest matter in the universe.  If there was a big bang, the it was here!
So there appears to be no difference in m/e for the oldest vs the newest
matter.

Now, putting the two together, we can see that Arp's hypothesis is denied.
That is because the aging of electrons requires that m/e change, else Arp's
hypothesis is immediately denied by even a simplistic Bohr's model.
However, we know m/e does NOT change, even from the freshest electron to
the oldest, therefore, we know for sure that Arp's hypothesis is denied, or
at least it can not accomodate even one of the constraints of the simplest
models of the atom.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 20:42:19 2000
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Message-ID: <39D2BA81.A878592D austininstruments.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:26:57 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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ConexTom aol.com wrote:
> 
> Is anyone aware of any forms of directed energy beams that can penetrate
> metals, gold or aluminum's? 

---
A mechanical acoustic "beam" can, as can brute force Xrays.

If the beam is formed of subatomic particles which are caused to impinge
normal to a face of a crystalline axis, then those particles will bounce
around until they leave the lattice or are absorbed by it.      
---


> I am aware that magnetic energy may be able to
> penetrate metals and if one could direct a pure magnetic energy beam devoid
> of any electrical fields at a piece of metal it may pass through it.


--- 
It depends upon the target, the intervening medium, and the source of
magnetic energy.

For example, take a permanent magnet and hold it on one side of an
aluminum plate.  The "static" magnetic field will penetrate the plate
and will attract a ferrous object on the other side of the plate.  Try
the same thing with a steel plate instead of an aluminum plate, and a
ferrous object on the other side of the plate will be attracted very
weakly, if at all.

The other side of the coin says that if you move the magnetic field in
4space you will be creating an electric field which then needs to be
dealt with.  That's tantamount to saying that if, instead of holding the
magnet steady on one side of the aluminum plate, you moved it.  Having
done that, a potential difference would be generated in the plate which
would cause a current to flow which would generate a magnetic field
which would oppose the movement of the magnet generating the current in
the aluminum plate in the first place.  Move the magnet fast enough and
the aluminum will look like steel and a ferrous object placed on the far
side will _not_ be attracted.  And will, therefore, be invisible.

Hmmm...


---

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep 27 22:43:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
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--- VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> The setup; S=scope, G=sig generator, L=loop. Connecting cables are 
> BNC connectors RG/58U cable, except loop connector via alligator clips
> at one end of cable:
> 
> [S]-----(24 in.)----------{G]----(18 in.)-----------[L]
> 
> a BNC "Tee" connector is at the signal generator. 

  <-------- this is loaded 1/4 wave line? --------------->

It looks like you have a quarter-wave resonant line. The scope is high
impedance, but it also has a capacitive impedance component, giving you a
capacitance-loaded open circuited end. The loop is a combination of extra
line length and a short circuited end, an inductively loaded end. The coax
totals 1m. The electrical length depedns on the velocity factor of the
coax, the scope capacitance and the loop geometry. 14 MHz free space
wavelength is about 21m, and 1/4 of that is 5.25m. I confess that I can't
stretch your dimensions by a factor of 5, even with all the adjustments,
but I strongly suspect that you have set up a resonant system that is much
larger than the loop you intended to test.

To start toward a better measurement: Put a T at your scope input and put a
terminating resistor equal to the characteristic impedance of the coax (50
or 75 ohm) on one side of the T, which puts the resistor across the scope
input. This damps resonances involving the scope. Connect the scope signal
cable to the terminals of the loop, which is the impedance you really want
to measure (not the generator). The center conductor of the feed cable from
the generator and/or amplifier should connect to the loop through another
resistor equal to the characteristic impedance. This damps resonances due
to the generator feed.








=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 00:07:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:06:31 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red (NO proof Arp not right)
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At 8:00 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote:
I wrote: "I think from the prior analysis we have learned that Arp's
hypothesis and the hypothesis of m/a being constant are inconsistent.  That
is because if the ratio m/e is constant then we immediately have that m is
constant and thus Arp's hypothesis is denied."

This was false due to an oversight.  Equation (18), which was based on m/e
being constant, reduces to:

   m = [e0 h^2/Pi (1/r)]^(1/5)

and thus m is not constant, but proportional to (1/r)^(1/5).  This is a
very strange thing dimensionally speaking, but still requires further
looking at, thus I have no conclusions at all, and very little time to look
into it.  (Sigh!)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 00:28:42 2000
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Subject: Re: Fluorescent Tube Light Lepton (or Electron) Detector
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:21:27 -0700
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Hypothesis: 

The copious supply of  185 and 254 nanometer ultraviolet in a Mercury
Discharge should create Light Lepton Pairs in the Fluorescent Tube, and
those that don't annihilate should be in the tube, either attached to the phosphor
or the Hg/Argon, or rattling around due to scattering by external light or EM fields.

Using a 35 year old, 4 foot, 40 watt Fluorescent Tube an experiment to
see if Light Leptons and/or electrons could be detected by applying a
low voltage (1.5 volts D.C.) pulse to the cold bulb.

Setup:

A 1.5 volt "C" battery was connected across the bulb through four
10 Megohm resistors in series using an insulated probe to complete
the circuit intermittently (since LLs cannot flow into a circuit only a momentary
current flow is expected) then since the external photons or EM fields can
scatter the LLs, waiting a few minutes for the LLs to be scattered allows time  for the
next pulse.

With a DVM across one of the 10 Megohm resistors, voltages down
to +/- 0.1 millivolts or currents down to +/- 1.0E-11 amperes can be seen.

Results:

By using a pulse-wait-pulse cycle "pulse currents" of up to 9E-11 amperes could
be seen. 

Rubbing the tube lightly with a cotton cloth rater than waiting, gave faster results.

Considering a field of ~ 1.5 volts/meter and about 1.0 cm mean free path, it doesn't
seem likely that an electron- ion flow would respond in the short time that the pulse
took to register on the DVM.

OTOH, the LL+ and LL-  with a mass 1/100,000th that of the electron could.

More work.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:22:21 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:00:18 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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>At 6:56 AM 9/27/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>>Jack Smith wrote:
>>
>>It's also possible the the creation of electron - positron
>>pairs in an accelerator has no resemblance to the
>>continuous creation of matter.
>>
>>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>Does that matter?  Arp's hypothesis is that particles
>>accumulate mass with age.
>>
>>Jack Smith wrote:
>>
>>Arp has apparently adopted Fred Hoyle's theory as being most
>>applicable to his observations -- I think in the spirit of
>>"completing the paperwork."  What's important here are the
>>observations, not the theory.  (Quasars as new matter is such
>>a revolutionary concept that it is not surprising that
>>theoretical development is not far along.)
>
>
>My points are focused on the particle aging process, not the time of origin
>or means of creation, which I think is immaterial to the arguments I have
>put forward.
>
>
>>
>>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>If that is true then there should be a
>>variety of mass/charge ratios represented in a
>>bubble chamber.  I think this is not the case.
>>
>>Hi Horace,
>>
>>It seems that you are assuming that, in new matter, the charge
>>stays constant while the mass increases.  Perhaps what is
>>constant is the mass/charge ratio.
>>
>>Jack Smith
>
>
>Intersting thought!   My thinking was that if you have a constant
>mass/charge ratio

***{You obviously cannot have a constant mass/charge ratio, Horace: an atom
has a net charge of zero, but its mass is not zero. Hence the ratio of mass
to charge would be infinite for a neutral atom. Moreover, since the proton
has a rest mass of 1.0072764 amu while that of the electron (and positron)
is .00054854807, it follows that the proton is roughly 1837 times as
massive as the electron (and the positron). In spite of that, the proton
has a charge of +1 compared to the electron's charge of -1, so you can't
even say that the ratio of the mass to the absolute value of the charge is
constant. However, if you think in terms of *components of charge*, such
difficulties dissappear, for in that case you can hypothesize that the
proton consists of 918 electrons and 919 positrons (or the stuff of which
they could be made). Result: for the positron, the ratio of mass to the
absolute value of the components of charge is 1837/(|-918| + |+919|) =
1837/(918 + 919) = 1837/1837 = 1, and for the electron the ratio of mass to
the components of charge is 1/|-1| = 1/1 = 1, which is identically the
same. This reasoning can be extended to the neutron and to the zoo of other
subatomic particles, including even photons, if you introduce the concept
that each unitary charge component consists of an accumulation of, speaking
somewhat loosely, *microcharges*. The implication is that while you cannot
have a constant ratio of mass to charge, you *can* have a constant ratio
between the mass and the absolute value of the sum of the component
charges. --MJ}***

, then you do not get a red shift

***{If you have a constant ratio between the mass and the absolute value of
the sum of the component charges, then you *do*, in fact, get a red shift.
For example, suppose that you have a galaxy consisting of component charges
that are half as massive as those here on Earth. In that galaxy, electrons
and positrons at rest will contain half as many microcharges as do the
electrons and positrons with which we are familiar, and as a result (a) the
net charge of the electron will be -.5, while that of the positron and the
proton will be +.5, and (b) the atoms of the various elements will be half
as massive as they are here on Earth. Result: in that galaxy, a planet just
like Earth, circling a star just like the Sun at the same distance as the
Earth, will travel much more slowly than the Earth, and will possess much
less potential energy than does the Earth.

To see why, let's begin by deriving a formula for the planet's orbital
velocity. To begin, the centripetal force pulling the planet in toward its
star will be Fi = G*Ms*Me/r^2, and the centrifugal force trying to hurl out
away from its star will be Fo = Me*V^2/r. Since Fi = Fo, we have
G*Ms*Me/r^2 = Me*V^2/r. Simplifying, we obtain V = sqrt(G*Ms/r), and we can
see that with G and r the same as on Earth, while Ms is half the mass of
our Sun, the orbital velocity of the hypothetical Earthlike planet must be
substantially less than the orbital velocity of Earth. And, of course,
since the orbital velocity is less, the kinetic energy must also be
less--to wit: (1/2)Me*V^2. And, since the potential energy of the planet is
equal to r times the average value of the force that its star would exert
on it, if it had an orbital velocity of zero, and fell into its star, it
follows that the potential energy would be substantially less than that of
Earth as well. The reason is that Ms and Me are both less that the
corresponding values would be in our solar system, at each point along the
path, and hence their average values over the entire path must be less as
well. Finally, by extension, it follows that the *differences* in the
potential energy of such a planet, if it were to be moved from about from
orbit to orbit within that stellar system, would always be less than the
corresponding differences if Earth were moved in the same way relative to
the Sun.

Since the same exact reasoning can obviously be applied to atoms using the
Coulomb force law in place of Newton's law of universal gravitation, it
follows that each specific energy transition around the lightweight atoms
in such a galaxy would involve lesser changes in total energy, and, as a
consequence, that the photons emitted in each such case would be
redshifted, by comparison to the corresponding emissions from heavier atoms
here on Earth.

Bottom line: Arp is correct in thinking that such emissions would be
redshifted.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
>strong BLUE SHIFT.

***{Your conclusion is clearly incorrect, for the reasons given above.
Unfortunately, I do not presently have time to slog through your math and
find your error, as I am up to my eyeballs in work at the moment, and have
very little time to play on the internet. :-( --MJ}***

>
>Further, and even more purplexing, is that (18) can be solved for m, and
>thus indicates that m is constant!  Unless there is another my typical
>amateur blunders, how Arp's theory could be reconciled is a real mystery!
>It appears the univers must be getting lighter to justify a red shift, but
>even that justification would have its difficulties.
>
>I am hoping Scott will fill us in on the theory when he gets there!
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 06:46:14 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

hmmmmm.  Why then don't we see a whole lot of the Universe blue shifted
w.r.t. us?   Are we the oldest matter out there?

Horace Heffner wrote:

Good question!  I don't know what to think.

Horace Heffner wrote:

I wrote: "I think from the prior analysis we have learned
that Arp's hypothesis and the hypothesis of m/e being
constant are inconsistent.  That is because if the ratio
m/e is constant then we immediately have that m is constant
and thus Arp's hypothesis is denied."

Horace Heffner then wrote:

This was false due to an oversight.  Equation (18), which
was based on m/e being constant, reduces to:

   m = [e0 h^2/Pi (1/r)]^(1/5)

and thus m is not constant, but proportional to
(1/r)^(1/5).  This is a very strange thing dimensionally
speaking, but still requires further looking at, thus I
have no conclusions at all, and very little time to look
into it.  (Sigh!)

Horace Heffner wrote:

My thinking was that if you have a
constant mass/charge ratio  [sentence continued below]

Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{ ... it follows that the proton
is roughly 1837 times as massive as the electron (and the
positron). In spite of that, the proton has a charge of +1
compared to the electron's charge of -1, so you can't even
say that the ratio of the mass to the absolute value of
the charge is constant.

However, if you think in terms of
*components of charge*, such difficulties disappear, for
in that case you can hypothesize that the proton consists
of 918 electrons and 919 positrons (or the stuff of which
they could be made). Result: for the positron, the ratio of
mass to the absolute value of the components of charge is

1837/(|-918| + |+919|) = 1837/(918 + 919) = 1837/1837 = 1,

and for the electron the ratio of mass to the components
of charge is

1/|-1| = 1/1 = 1,

... --MJ}***

Horace Heffner wrote:

then you do not get a red shift

Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{If you have a constant ratio between the mass and the
absolute value of the sum of the component charges, then
you *do*, in fact, get a red shift.  For example, suppose
that you have a galaxy consisting of component charges that
are half as massive as those here on Earth ...

it follows that the *differences* in the
potential energy of such a planet, if it were to be moved
from about from orbit to orbit within that stellar system,
would always be less than the corresponding differences
if Earth were moved in the same way relative to the Sun.

Since the same exact reasoning can obviously be applied to
atoms using the Coulomb force law in place of Newton's law
of universal gravitation, it follows that each specific
energy transition around the lightweight atoms in such
a galaxy would involve lesser changes in total energy,
and, as a consequence, that the photons emitted in each
such case would be redshifted, by comparison to the
corresponding emissions from heavier atoms here on Earth.

Bottom line: Arp is correct in thinking that such emissions
would be redshifted.  }***

Hi All,

Excellent discussion!  Do we see all incoming light as
redshifted?  Suppose that is the case.  This should not
surprise us because there are many possible sources of
redshift.  Would all incoming light be gravitationally
redshifted?  I think Doppler redshift has been observed
in Sunlight.

The issue here is how do we account for the DIFFERENCE
in redshift between quasars and their parent galaxies.
Hoyle's continuous creation of matter theory offers a
plausible explanation, (but I like MJ's absorption of
gravitons a la Le Sage better than the Machian expanding
zone of interaction).

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 1:00 AM 9/28/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>***{You obviously cannot have a constant mass/charge ratio, Horace: an atom


Well duh!!  It was clearly stated that it was NOT the ATOM, but its
constituants that were the subject of my analysis.  If you are going to
study


>has a net charge of zero, but its mass is not zero. Hence the ratio of mass
>to charge would be infinite for a neutral atom. Moreover, since the proton
>has a rest mass of 1.0072764 amu while that of the electron (and positron)
>is .00054854807, it follows that the proton is roughly 1837 times as
>massive as the electron (and the positron).


Wel, duh again!  However, if you accept Arp's theory, the above only
applies to "Earth matter age" varieties.


>In spite of that, the proton
>has a charge of +1 compared to the electron's charge of -1, so you can't
>even say that the ratio of the mass to the absolute value of the charge is
>constant.


I specifically focused on the electron mass, because the proton mass is so
large as to have no effect on the hydrogen atom mechanics.  A change in
charge WOULD have and effect, but the mechanics, as far as I took them,
come out the same if you allocate all the charge increment to the electron.
It is the product of the electron and protron charge that really matters
to the orbital mechanics.


>However, if you think in terms of *components of charge*, such
>difficulties dissappear,


Totally false!  It does not matter to the theory whether the increments
must occur in small units or in continuous "real" units.


>for in that case you can hypothesize that the
>proton consists of 918 electrons and 919 positrons (or the stuff of which
>they could be made). Result: for the positron, the ratio of mass to the
>absolute value of the components of charge is 1837/(|-918| + |+919|) =
>1837/(918 + 919) = 1837/1837 = 1, and for the electron the ratio of mass to
>the components of charge is 1/|-1| = 1/1 = 1, which is identically the
>same. This reasoning can be extended to the neutron and to the zoo of other
>subatomic particles, including even photons, if you introduce the concept
>that each unitary charge component consists of an accumulation of, speaking
>somewhat loosely, *microcharges*. The implication is that while you cannot
>have a constant ratio of mass to charge, you *can* have a constant ratio
>between the mass and the absolute value of the sum of the component
>charges. --MJ}***


This is immaterial to the arguments put forward.


>
>, then you do not get a red shift
>
>***{If you have a constant ratio between the mass and the absolute value of
>the sum of the component charges, then you *do*, in fact, get a red shift.
>For example, suppose that you have a galaxy consisting of component charges
>that are half as massive as those here on Earth. In that galaxy, electrons
>and positrons at rest will contain half as many microcharges as do the
>electrons and positrons with which we are familiar, and as a result (a) the
>net charge of the electron will be -.5, while that of the positron and the
>proton will be +.5, and (b) the atoms of the various elements will be half
>as massive as they are here on Earth. Result: in that galaxy, a planet just
>like Earth, circling a star just like the Sun at the same distance as the
>Earth, will travel much more slowly than the Earth, and will possess much
>less potential energy than does the Earth.
>
>To see why, let's begin by deriving a formula for the planet's orbital
>velocity. To begin, the centripetal force pulling the planet in toward its
>star will be Fi = G*Ms*Me/r^2, and the centrifugal force trying to hurl out
>away from its star will be Fo = Me*V^2/r. Since Fi = Fo, we have
>G*Ms*Me/r^2 = Me*V^2/r. Simplifying, we obtain V = sqrt(G*Ms/r), and we can
>see that with G and r the same as on Earth, while Ms is half the mass of
>our Sun, the orbital velocity of the hypothetical Earthlike planet must be
>substantially less than the orbital velocity of Earth. And, of course,
>since the orbital velocity is less, the kinetic energy must also be
>less--to wit: (1/2)Me*V^2. And, since the potential energy of the planet is
>equal to r times the average value of the force that its star would exert
>on it, if it had an orbital velocity of zero, and fell into its star, it
>follows that the potential energy would be substantially less than that of
>Earth as well. The reason is that Ms and Me are both less that the
>corresponding values would be in our solar system, at each point along the
>path, and hence their average values over the entire path must be less as
>well. Finally, by extension, it follows that the *differences* in the
>potential energy of such a planet, if it were to be moved from about from
>orbit to orbit within that stellar system, would always be less than the
>corresponding differences if Earth were moved in the same way relative to
>the Sun.


Which is what I proved, only using the more appropriate Coulomb's law, with
the addition of quantum mechanical constraints.


>
>Since the same exact reasoning can obviously be applied to atoms using the
>Coulomb force law in place of Newton's law of universal gravitation, it
>follows that each specific energy transition around the lightweight atoms
>in such a galaxy would involve lesser changes in total energy, and, as a
>consequence, that the photons emitted in each such case would be
>redshifted, by comparison to the corresponding emissions from heavier atoms
>here on Earth.

Which is also what I proved.


>
>Bottom line: Arp is correct in thinking that such emissions would be
>redshifted.

So far, I agree with this - provided


>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>>so kinetic energy K is now proportional to m^5, and thus there is a VERY
>>strong BLUE SHIFT.
>
>***{Your conclusion is clearly incorrect,


The above conclusion was correct.  Older matter DOES have a blue shift,
according to Arp.  That is the same as saying younger matter has a red
shift, it is just a matter of your perspective on aging!  8^)



>for the reasons given above.
>Unfortunately, I do not presently have time to slog through your math and
>find your error, as I am up to my eyeballs in work at the moment, and have
>very little time to play on the internet. :-( --MJ}***


The above conclusion that K ~ m^5 was a CORRECT derivation which resulted
from assuming mass/charge ratio was fixed for the electron as mass varied.
That it it was correct (though much unexpected by me!) is now obvious
becuase you can "see it" by inspection.  This is a very interesting (to me
at least) conclusion in that the fith power rule might be combined with the
fact "new" and "old" electrons do not show any mass/charge ratio change
from 1.75890 x 10^11 coul/kg in some way to disprove Arp's theory.  I
thought I had such a proof, but it contained a mistake.

I wonder if Arp realized that his redshift would have to be so strong due
to  K ~ m^5?   This would have a dramatic effect on estimates of ages.
Everything would have to be about the same age.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 5:44 AM 9/28/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Excellent discussion!  Do we see all incoming light as
>redshifted?  Suppose that is the case.  This should not
>surprise us because there are many possible sources of
>redshift.  Would all incoming light be gravitationally
>redshifted?  I think Doppler redshift has been observed
>in Sunlight.
>
>The issue here is how do we account for the DIFFERENCE
>in redshift between quasars and their parent galaxies.
>Hoyle's continuous creation of matter theory offers a
>plausible explanation, (but I like MJ's absorption of
>gravitons a la Le Sage better than the Machian expanding
>zone of interaction).



A problem with this MJ's corpuscular theory is that there is nothing to
prevent exchange of small units of microcharges (or even neutral corpuscles
if they exist) between electrons and electrons, or electrons and protons,
or protons and protons.  We would thus see, in a plasma, blurred spectral
lines as collisions between these particles provide the opportunity for the
(semi-permanent) exchange of microcharges.

Another problem with this idea is that either some of MJ's "ultramundane
corpuscles" are charged or not.  If they are charged, then unlike
corpuscles will on average be diverted to and absorbed by oppositely
charged particles.  This would either result in a mass annihilation,
producing detectable radiation, plus a mass DECREASE, or if such
annihilation can not occur, would result in a variable mass/charge ratio,
which would have been detected.   In the case of the existence of and
absorbtion of non-charged ultramundane corpuscles, the mass/charge ratio
must change as they are absorbed.  This would be seen in a variety of
experiments where results clearly show quantized units and fixed
mass/charge ratios.  Therefore such ultramundane corpuscles can not be
absorbed long term, and thus can not account for the red shift.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Detection of Light Lepton Pairs in an Incandescent Bulb
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Staying with the assumption that Light Lepton Pairs are created
by photons in the 1/3 atmosphere of Argon in an incandescent light bulb
a recently burned out 60 watt bulb with at least 1,000 hours of operation
was tested using a 1.5 volt "C' battery in series with  three 10 Megohm
resistors with a DVM connected across one of the resistors.

Again "pulsing" by switching the bulb into the series string gave pulses of
current in the range of  +/- 1.0E-11 to ~ 5.0E-11 amperes.

Rubbing the bulb with a cloth also sped up the cycle rate.

(Rubbing the bulb in a dark room also produces some fluorescence and
nuking them in a microwave results in an explosion)

With the thought that this could be an interelectrode capacitance effect,
switching to 3.0 volts using two "C' batteries in series didn't produce
any more pulse current.

Many stray noise "artifacts" to contend with, too.

Regards,   Frederick


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I also looked at Doppler shift.  In review I've shown that the matter wave 
function is held in place by restraining force.  This force results in the 
inertial mass of matter, the deBrogle wavelength, the gravitational mass of 
matter, and the megahertz-meter relationship. I also done the same analysis 
for a photon.  The restoring force is its acceleration as its passed through 
Hubble's constant.  velcoity(c/sec) x Hubbles constant (1/second) = 
acceleration

Here is all of the math.

                                 6/97



                  THE SOURCE OF INERTIAL AND GRAVITATIONAL MASS              

                                   by


                            Frank Znidarsic PE
                            

                                                                       2



         ABSTRACT


         
              Present quantum theory is very exact in its

         representation of quantum interactions.  This theory

         represents matter as a series of superimposed

         quantum-mechanical matter waves.  These matter waves exist

         in vector space.  It is not easy to reconcile gravity with

         the current model of matter.  All waves (matter, real, and

         probability) should propagate into space.  It author will be

         shown that the energy of matter is localized by forces.  The

         addition of forces to existing models of matter results in a

         formulation that requires no infinities, probability waves,

         or special reconciliation with gravity.  The fundamental

         postulate of the modified model requires the production of a

         gravitational field.  Matter's dynamic deBroglie wavelength

         also falls out as a natural consequence of the model.


                                                                       3



         INTRODUCTION

              Present theory identifies matter as a source of

         gravitational and inertial mass.  Einstein's General Theory

         of Relativity states that an applied force also produces a

         gravitational field.  Energy has no rest mass.  According to

         existing theory energy does, however, have an effective

         gravitational mass.  Present theory states that there are

         three sources of gravity.  These sources are:



         1.   Rest Energy (Matter)

         2.   Kinetic energy (Photons and Moving Matter)

         3.   Force



         It will be shown that there is only one source of mass.

         This one source is an applied force.  All inertial and

         gravitational mass is a direct result of an applied force.



         INERTIAL MASS

              An analysis will now be done that will describe

         inertial mass in terms of an applied force.  Consider energy

         trapped in a perfectly reflecting containment. (see fig. #1)

          ________________
          |        \     |
          |       P1 \   |
          |            \ |
         A|             /|B             X  
          |        P2 /  |
          |         /    |
          |______________|
          |<---- L------>|<----- X ----->

       Matter wave in a box


         This energy in a containment model is a simplistic

         representation of matter.  In this analysis no

         distinction will be made between baryonic, leptonic, and

         electromagnetic waves.  


                                                                  4
                                                             

         The wavelength of the energy represents the Compton

         Compton wavelength of matter.  The containment represents the

         surface of matter. This analysis considers only the momentum

         of the energy.  The containment will be considered to be at

         rest.  The energy is ejected from wall "A" of the

         containment, its momentum is p(1).  The energy now travels to        
                               
                                       
         wall "B".  It hits wall B and immediately bounces off.  Its

         momentum is p(2) .  The energy now travels back to wall "A",         
             
                      
         immediately bounces off, its momentum is again p(1).  This           
                                              
                                                         
         process repeats continuously.  If the energy in the

         containment is evenly distributed throughout the containment, 

         the momentum carried by this energy will be distributed evenly

         between the forward and backward traveling components.  The total

         momentum of this system is given in equation #1.



         p(t)  =(p(1)/2 - p(2)/2)                                 Eq #1       
   
          

         The momentum of a flow of energy is given by equation #2



         p = E/c                                           Eq #2

                            E = energy

                            c = light speed

                            p = momentum



         Substituting Eq. #2 into Eq. #1 yields Eq. #3.



                                                                       5



         p(t)  = [E(1)/2c - E(2)/2c]         Eq. #3          
          



         Given the containment is at rest.  The amount of energy in

         the containment remains fixed, the quantity of energy

         traveling in the forward direction equals the quantity of

         energy traveling in the reverse direction.  This is shown in

         equation #4.



         E(1)  = E(2)                                          Eq #4          
          



         Substituting Eq. #4 into Eq. #3 yields Eq #5.



         p(t)  = (E/2c)(1 - 1)                               Eq #5          
          



         Equation #5 is the total momentum of the system at rest.  If

         an external force is applied to the system its velocity will

         change.  The forward and the reverse components of the

         energy will then doppler shift after bouncing off of the

         moving containment walls. The momentun of a an energy flow varies

         directly with its frequency.  Given that the number of "photons"

         in containment is conserved, the energy of the reflected "photons" 

         varies directly with their frequency.  This is demonstrated

          by equation #6.



         E(2)  = E(1) [f(f) /f(i)]                                   Eq. #6   
       
         



         Substituting Eq. #6 into Eq #5. yields eq. #7.


                                                                          6



         p(t)  = (E/2c)[(f(f)/f(i)) - (f(f)/f(i))]                      Eq #7 
         
       



         Equation #7 is the momentum of the system after all of its

         energy bounces once off of the containment walls. Equation

         #7 shows a net flow of energy in one direction.  Equation #7

         is the momentum of a moving system.  The reader may desire

         to analyze the system after successive bounces of its

         energy.  This analysis is quite involved and unnecessary.

         Momentum is always conserved.  Given that no external force

         is applied to the system after the first bounce of its

         energy, its momentum will remain constant.



         Relativistic doppler shift is given by equation #8.
                               .5
         (f(f)/f(i)) = (1-vv/cc) /(1 +- v/c),                   Eq #8         
  
          

                                    v = velocity with respect
                                        to the observer
                                    c = light speed
                           f((f)/f(i) = frequency ratio                       
          
                                 
                         + or - depends on the direction of motion

         Substituting equation #8 into equation #7 yields equation #9


                  -        .5                  .5 _                          
           =  E  | (1-vv/cc)          (1-vv/cc)    |
             --- |  -----------   -  ----------    |    Eq #9                 
                
              2c | (1-v/c)            (1+v/c)      |
                  -                               _


                                                                              
                                    _              .5                     .5_ 
 
          =   E |(1+v/c)(1-vv/cc)       (1-v/c)(1-vv/cc)  |
            --- | ----------------  -  -----------------  |
             2c |(1+v/c)(1-v/c)         (1-v/c)(1+v/c)    |
                 -                                       -


                 -         .5             -
             E  | (1-vv/cc)  (1+v/c-1+v/c) |
             -- |  ----------------------- |
             2C |     (1-vv/cc)            |
                 -                        - 



                     ___ Ev________
                                .5
                     cc(1-vv/cc)
                     



                                                                          7



         Substituting mass for energy, M = E/cc


          =        ___Mv______
                            .5
                   (1-vv/cc)                           Eq #10
        
        
        The result, equation #10 is the relativistic momentum of

         moving matter.   This first analysis graphically

         demonstrates that inertial mass is produced by a containment

         force at the surface of matter.  A fundamental change in the

         frame of reference is produced by the force of containment.

         This containment force converts energy, which can only

         travel at light speed, into mass, which can travel at any

         speed but light speed.
                                1,2,3


          GRAVITATIONAL MASS



              Einstein's principle of equivalence states that

         gravitational and inertial mass are the same  .
                                                      4
         Gravitational mass then must be generated by the same

         mechanism that produces inertial mass.  The reflection of

         the energy off of the walls of the containment must also

         generate the gravitational mass of the energy in the box.

         It is well known that the gravitational field can generate a

         force.  This the gravitational force is given by equation

         #11.



         The force of gravity = mg                 Eq #11



                                                                          8



         It is less well known that the application of a force also

         induces a gravitation field.  The application of a force

         must induce gravity in order to conserve a symmetrical

         relationship between the forces.  For example, a changing

         magnetic field will induce an electrical field and

         conversely a changing electrical field will induce a

         magnetic field.   Likewise the application of a force also           
             
                       5

        induces a gravitational field.  The application of a force

         must also produce gravity in order to conserve momentum.  If

         mass is pushed into the established field of other mass time

         is required for the gravitational field of pushed matter to

         reach the other mass.  To conserve momentum during this

         interval an induced gravitational field is required. The

         relationship between the induced gravitational field and the

         force of acceleration as demonstrated by General Relativity

           is given by equation #12.         6



         Eg = (G/(ccr))(dp/dt)                      Eq #12

                             G = the grav constant
                             r = the grav radius
                          dp/dt = Force
                          Eg = The gravitational field in Newtons/kg


         Each time the energy strikes the wall of the containment (or

         the surface of matter) it produces a gravitation field

         according to equation #12.  An exact mathematical analysis

         of the gravitational field produced by the photon in the box

         will now be undertaken.

         Ref figure #1


                                                                          9



         
         L = The dimensions of the box
         p = momentum
         t = the time required for the photon to directly traverse the box = 
L/c
         r = the distance to point X


         The far gravitational field at point X is the vector sum of

         the field produced by the impacts on walls A and B. This

         field is given by Equation #13.


         Field        = 1/r field from wall A - 1/r field from wall B         
      
              (at X)

         Eq #13
                     = (G/(cc(r+L))) dp/dt  - (G/(ccr)) dp/dt

                     = -(G/cc)(dp/dt)(L/(rr+rL))

         Taking the limit to obtain the far field yields Eq 14 .              
                                                7

         lim -(G/cc)(dp/dt)(k/(rr+rL)) = -(G/cc)(dp/dt)(L/rr)
         as r>>k                                            Eq #14


         The change in momentum in the simplistic box modelis given by Eq. 
#15.


      dp/dt = /\ p / /\ t = (2E/c)/(L/c) = 2E/L       Eq #15


         In order to remain consistent with the first argument only
         half of the energy will be considered to be impacting on
         wall "A" of the containment. The other half of the energy
         will be considered to impacting on wall "B" of the
         containment.  Substituting Eq #15 into Eq #14 and adding a
         factor of 1/2 is yields Equation #16.


         Field       =1/2(G/cc)(2E/L)(L/rr)        Eq 16              
             (at X)

         Substituting mass for energy yields Equation #17.

         Field       = -GM/rr                            Eq #17              
              (at X)


         The result, equation #17, is Newton's formula of gravity .           
                                                      8

         This second analysis clearly shows that gravitational mass

         is produced by the force of containment at the surface of

         matter.


                                                                          10



          PHOTONIC MASS



              A photon has no rest mass therefore the source of

         the gravitation mass of a photon cannot be mass.  The source

         of the gravitational mass of a photon will now be

         demonstrated.  Hubbles' constant expresses the expansion

         space in units of 1/time.  Ordinarily, the effects resulting

         for the Hubble expansion are quite tiny.  At great distances

         and at high velocities significant effects do, however, take

         place. As a photon travels through space at the high

         velocity of light it red shifts.  This red shift may be

         considered to be the result of an applied force.  This force

         is produced by the acceleration given in equation #18.


         Acceleration = Hc                                 Eq #18

                                        H = Hubble's constant, given
                                            in units of (1/sec)
                                        c = light speed


         To demonstrate the gravitational relationships of a photon

         the principle of the conservation of momentum will be

         employed.  According to this principle exploding bodies

         conserve there center of gravitational mass.  Mass M ejects

         a photon while over the pivot I. (Ref fig #2)  The

         gravitational center of mass must remain balanced over the

         pivot point I.   Mass M is propelled to the left velocity at

         v  and the photon travels to the right at velocity c.  The          
          1

         product of the velocity and time is the displacement S.


             <---S1--> <---------S2---------->

            Mass                           photon
           ----------------------------------------          
                      I
                                                                          11
            Photon and matter on a balance beam


         Setting the products of the displacements S and the

         gravitational masses Mg equal yields equation #19.



         Mg(1) S(1)  = Mg(2) S(2)                          Eq #19           
           

         GMS /rr(1)  = (G/cc) (force) S /r(2)            
              

         GMS /rr(1)  = (G/cc) dp/dt S /r(2)           
          

         GM(v(1) t) = (G/cc) dp/dt (ct)r           Eq #20             
             

         Substituting, dp/dt = Ma = MHc = (E/cc)Hc = EH/c    Eq #21

         G(Mv(1))t = (G/cc)(E/c)Hctr             
             

         Setting momentums equal, p(1)  = p(2)  = Mv(1)  = E/c                
                   
                                

         Gp(1) t = (G/cc)p(2) Hctr           
         

         c = Hr                                             Eq #22
         




         The result, equation #22, shows the gravitational mass of a

         photon is produced by the force it experiences as it

         accelerates through Hubble's constant.  The result is true

         only under the condition where the speed of light is equal

         to the product of Hubble's constant and the radius of the

         universe.  The gravitational radius of the photon is the

         radius of the universe.  These qualifications are

         essentially consistent with the known cosmological

         constants.



                                                                          12



        MATTERS DYNAMIC ATTRIBUTES

              A dynamic attribute of matter, its wavelength, also

         results from an applied force.  As stated, the original

         wavelength of the photon represents the Compton wavelength

         of matter. Equation #23 expresses the Compton wavelength.


           L(c)     = h/Mc                                   Eq #23           
         



         Equation #24 gives the relationship between frequency f and

         wavelength L.



         f(c) = (f)(L)                                 Eq #24



         Substituting Eq #24 into Eq. #23 yields Eq #25 the Compton

         frequency of matter.



         f(c)  = Mcc/h                              Eq. #25          
          



         A doppler shifted component of the original frequency is

         produced by the reflection at matter's surface.  Classical

         doppler shift is given by Eq #26.



         f(2)  = f(1) (1 +- v/c)                            Eq #26          
      



         A beat note is formed by the mixing of the doppler shifted

         and original components.  This beat note is the deBroglie

         wave of matter.



                                                                          13



         Equation #27 and Figure #3 express a function "F" involving the

         sum of two sin waves.



          F(L,t)| = amplitude orig. wave + amplitude reflected wave           
     
                |
                | L held constant



         F(t) = sin(6.28 f(c) t + 3.14) +   sin[6.26 f(c) t(1 +- v/c)]       
Eq #27                       
                    



         Substituting Eq #25 into Eq #27 yields Eq #28.



         F(t) = sin[6.28 t(Mcc/h)+ 3.14] + sin[6.28 t(Mcc/h)(1 +- v/c)]  Eq 
#28



         A minimum in the beat note envelope occurs when the

         component waves are opposed in phase.   At time zero the

         angles differ by 3.14 radians.  Time zero is a minimum in the

         beat note envelope.  A maximum in the beat envelope occurs

         when the component waves are aligned in phase.  The phases

         were set equal, in Equation #29, to determine the time at

         which the aligned phase "p" condition occurs.

                     p(1)   =  p(2)                          Eq #29           
           
                



         6.28 tMcc/h + 3.14   = 6.28 tMcc/h  +-  6.28 tMcv/h        Eq #30



         ct = +- h/2Mv                                  Eq #31



          L(d)   = h/Mv                                  Eq #32            
           



         The result, Equation #32, is the deBroglie wavelength of

         matter               9


                                                                          14



        GRAVITATIONAL APPLICATIONS


                The movement of ordinary matter does not produce a

         net magnetic field.  The movement of charged matter does

         produce a net magnetic field.  Charged matter is produced by

         the separation of positive and negative charges.  The

         derivation used to develop Newton's formula of gravity (Eq

         #13) shows that matter may harbor near field positive and

         negative gravitational components.  A similar analysis with

         the strong nuclear force, in fact, demonstrates the known

         repulsive component of the nuclear force.  In

         superconductors the length of the wavefunction "L" is

         longer.  These longer wavefunctions produce near field

         components that are macroscopic in dimension.  As in the

         case with electrically charged matter, the rotation of these

         separate gravitational components should induce a

         strong gravitomagnetic field.  This gravitomagnetic field

         appears to have been detected by an experiment conducted at

         Tampere University.                            7



        NUCLEAR APPLICATIONS

              Low level nuclear reactions appear to have been

         discovered.  These low level nuclear reactions

         take place in systems containing condensed electrons.                
                                              
                                                             10

         This author's model shows that the length of the

         wavefunction "L" increases in condensed systems.  This

         effect may "soften up the nucleus" and allow unexpected low

         level nuclear reactions to take place.



                                                                          15



        CONCLUSION



             It has been shown that the application of a force is the

         exclusive mechanism by which all inertial and gravitational

         mass is generated.   A reflection takes place at the

         surface of matter.  The force produced by this reflection

         induces the gravitational and the inertial mass associated

         with matter.  This concept is so simple that once it is seen

         it appears to be almost self evident.

              The gravitational mass of a photon was shown to be

         produced by the acceleration of a photon through Hubble's

         constant.  This analysis shows that there is a relationship

         between the speed of light, Hubbles's constant, and the

         radius of the universe.  Remarkably the model also yields, a

         factor unrelated to mass, matters dynamic wavelength.

                A profound, yet simple, model has been developed.

         This model demonstrates the mechanism though which all mass

         (gravitational and inertial) is generated.  The scope of the

         symmetrical relationship that exists between force and

         gravity has been exposed.  This author believes that this

         new understanding will lead to the development of

         gravitational technologies.                                    11


                                                                         
         
            NOTES

         
         1.  Jennison demonstrated the previously unestablished fact

             a trapped electromagnetic standing wave has rest mass

             and inertia.

         
             Jennison & Drinkwater Journal of Physics A, vol 10,

             pp.(167-179)   1977

             Jennison & Drinkwater Journal of Physics A, vol 13,

             pp.(2247-2250)  1980

             Jennison & Drinkwater Journal of Physics A, vol 16,

             pp.(3635-3638)  1983



         2.  Puthoff has shown that force produced by the reflection

             and adsorption of zero point energy at the surface of

             matter generates mass.  This author's model is an

             extension version of Puthoff's work.



             H.E. Puthoff, "Ground State Hydrogen as a

             Zero-Point-Fluctuation-Determined State"

             Physical Review D, vol 35, Number 3260, 1987



             H. E. Puthoff "GRAVITY AS A ZERO-POINT FLUCTUATION

             FORCE", Physical Review A, vol 39, Number 5, March 1989


                                                                          18


                                                                   

         3.  Gilbert N. Lewis demonstrated the relationship between

             external radiation pressure and momentum.

             Gilbert N. Lewis,  Philosophical Magazine, Nov. 1908



         4.  Einstein's principle of equivalence was experimentally

             confirmed by R.v. Eotos in the  1920's

             R.v. Eotvos, D. Pekar, and Feteke, Ann. d. Phys 1922

             Roll, Krotkov and Dicke followed up on the Eotvos

             experiment and confirmed the principle of equivalence
                                 11
             to an accuracy of 10   in the 1960's

             R.G. Roll, R. Krotkow & Dicke, Ann. of Physics 26, 1964





         5.  Danish physicist Han Christian Oersted first discovered

             that and electric current produces a magnetic field

             in 1820.  English scientist Michael Faraday demonstrated

             that a changing magnetic field produces an electric

             current in 1831.



         6.  A. Einstein, Ann. d. Physics 49, 1916.



                                                                          19



         7.  This author proposes that the rotation of the near field

             components resulted in gravitomagnetic effects observed

             at The University of Tampere in Finland.



             "A Possibility of Gravitational Force Shielding by Bulk

             YBa2Cu307-x",

             E. Podkletnov and R. Nieminen,  Physica C, vol 203

             (1992), pp 441-444.



         8.  Sir I. Newton, PHILOSOPHICA NATURALIS PRINCIPIA

             MATHEMATICA  (1687)



         9.  French aristocrat Louis de Broglie described the

             electrons wavelength in his Ph.D. thesis in 1924.

             De Broglie's hypothesis was verified by C. J. Davisson

             and L. H. Germer at Bell Labs.  The mechanism

             through which elementary particles can possess dynamic

             attributes, such as the de Broglie wavelength, has been

             a central mystery in the field of quantum physics.



         10. Preprint Miley George H., Nuclear Transmutations in

             Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis,

             Preprint The Fusion Studies Laboratory of the University

             of Illinois USA



         11. The discovery of the symmetrical relationship

             between the electric and magnetic fields by Oersted and

             Faraday is the basis of our current electro-technologies.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 10:43:55 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: re: seeing red
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At 1:17 PM 9/28/0, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
>I also looked at Doppler shift.  In review I've shown that the matter wave
>function is held in place by restraining force.


Could you briefly describe what your theory has to say pro or con on the
question as to whether the mass of particles increases with age, as Arp
suggests?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 10:45:03 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Directed enegy beams that can penetrate metals/gold/aluminum?
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:41:32 CDT
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As to RF I understand that longer wavelengths (lower energy) have greater 
penetration through any material.

Higher RF "beams" like lasers bore through materials with brute force by 
dumping their energy into the material until it melts or slags out of the 
way.

Hope this helps.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 10:53:04 2000
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>From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: FE Device
>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:15:24 -0800
>
>At 9:53 PM 9/26/0, Adam Cox wrote:
> >Just a note
> >
> >I am currently working on a FE device based on a monopole generator and 
>some
> >equation loopholes when applied to non-linear systems.
> >
> >Wish me luck!
>
>Best of luck to you, of course!
>
>I would like to add that if you have a monopole then getting free energy is
>almost trivial, and getting even more monopoles is probably not so
>difficult.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>
uhhh...

Horace...

how are you using monopole?  I am using it in the sense of a DC electric 
generator which does not need a rectifying apparatus ie NEVER produces AC.

If your refering to magnetic monopoles, I have no idea how to do that.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 11:30:07 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: re: seeing red - another perspective 
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Arp's theory, that matter increases with time, and that distant appearing
objects are actually comparatively close, has as a natural consequence the
collapse of the universe, i.e. a "big scrunch." The mass of the univers is
close to being a black hole as it is. By vastly scruntching up the
distance, even without the perpetual mass increase, Arp has guaranteed that
the universe will scrunch.

One of my own pet theories is that a big scrunch would result in a big
bang, and in fact small crunches can result in small bangs.  This happens
as the result of geometrical dynamics that occur when large numbers of
black holes interact.

It would appear that once a black hole is formed that there is no possible
escape for the matter inside.  Even photons are trapped, thus, as vacuum
fluctuation created particle pairs are separated at the Swartzchild radius,
even the mass of antimatter that accretes to the black hole is trapped.  In
this sense the mass of the universe increases even without Arps'
hypothesis.  This assumes that photons have mass, or at least carry mass
and convert to mass periodically if energetic enough and confined.  This
also assumes that gravity affects photons as is if they had equivalent
mass, which is fairly well accepted, and is the converse of the hypothesis
that photons have mass, i.e. that the gravitational force is symmetrical,
an "equal and opposite reaction" type force.

Here is a critical thought regarding the possibility of matter escaping
black holes.  If the universe consisted only of a large spherical shell of
matter, there would be no gravitational force inside the sphere.  If black
holes were to be densely packed into a spherical shell, so close that
neighboring Swartzhild's radii overlapped, then photons, and thus
ultimately mass, would be free to escape in an inward direction.  Suddenly,
the body as a whole, the entire sphere, would have to be less than the
Swartzchild radius for the combined mass to remain a black hole.

Approximations to this effect can occur with smaller configurations, much
smaller depending on the masses involved.  A ring of black holes, with
Swartzchild radii overlapping, and of sufficiently small mass, should be
capable of releasing mass inward, upon which the mass could ascape along
the axis of the ring in the form of paired jets.  This escape of energy and
momentum would produce enough force to eventually destroy the ring of black
holes by pushing them outward, thus the jets might appear to be more like
blobs than jets, depending on the mass and size of the constituants of the
ring.

The accumulation of black holes at the center of the galaxy, or a
collapsing universe, provide, through semi-random motion, a wide variety of
geometrical relationships between groups of black holes.  Ring or sphere
geometries should be commonplace over time, and thus matter jets should
form at least periodically.

This concept may describe some aspects of Arp's observations, but would not
explain why both quasars of a pair would be red shifted.  At least one
quasar of a pair should be (velocity) blue shifted according the black hole
ring-jet scenario, since they head in opposite directions. If neither of
the ejecta were toward us, both moving sideways, then they both should be
blue shifted due to the lateral relativistic doppler shift.

This is interesting and heady stuff.  Thanks to Scott for sharing it with us.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: FE Device
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At 12:52 PM 9/28/0, Adam Cox wrote:
[snip]
>Horace...
>
>how are you using monopole?  I am using it in the sense of a DC electric
>generator which does not need a rectifying apparatus ie NEVER produces AC.


Ohhh!  I had not heard the term used that way before.  All electrostatic
things are dipolar, aren't they?   For example, a van de Graff generator
has one pole, but the surroundings make up the other pole.  I guess I don't
know what you are talking about.  Is this a common thing, say with examples
available on some web site?

If you are referring to a brushless DC generator, then it is fairly easily
proved that such is impossible (unless your theory goes beyond a
conventional  Maxwell type theory.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:14:40 EDT
Subject: Re: Resonance in an R.F. Pulse fed Single Current Loop
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In a message dated 9/27/00 10:44:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
schaffermj yahoo.com writes:

> o start toward a better measurement: Put a T at your scope input and put a
>  terminating resistor equal to the characteristic impedance of the coax (50
>  or 75 ohm) on one side of the T, which puts the resistor across the scope
>  input. This damps resonances involving the scope. Connect the scope signal
>  cable to the terminals of the loop, which is the impedance you really want
>  to measure (not the generator). The center conductor of the feed cable from
>  the generator and/or amplifier should connect to the loop through another
>  resistor equal to the characteristic impedance. This damps resonances due
>  to the generator feed.
>  
>  =====
>  Michael J. Schaffer
>  

I will give it a try. Thanks.  


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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***{I just noticed that the following reply, which I sent off yesterday,
never appeared on vortex, so I am sending it again.

A glance at the headers indicated why the original version of this reply
didn't make its way to vortex: Dean had his reply-to header set to point to
his e-mail address. That's a no-no, folks! When you do that, you divert
replies *away* from vortex, which you obviously should not do, given that
your original post was sent to vortex.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:38:35 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>wrote:
>
>>***{Diagenesis in rock involves a steady increase in the strength and
>>density of the rock, over time, due to the deposition of minerals by the
>>water that percolates through it. The push theory of gravitation requires
>>that a similar process take place in matter.
>  <snip>
>>But if you are standing on
>>the surface of the Earth, a tiny percentage of those that would otherwise
>>rise up to hit you from below will be absorbed by the Earth. Result: a net
>>force--gravity--pushing you toward the Earth.
>
>>If the push theory of gravity is true, then over astonomically vast spans
>>of time the accumulation of absorbed ultramundane corpuscles would, of
>>necessity, result in an increase in the mass of the atoms of which matter
>>is composed.
>
>And, by extension, what we know as gravity would have to increase over
>time as the increased mass becomes more effective in blocking the
>"corpuscles."

***{Correct. --MJ}***

>
>A thought:  Large dinosaurs are a major problem for paleontology
>because they're too massive -- and weigh too much for their bones and
>muscles -- to have existed on today's Earth.  Is it possible that in
>the relatively brief span of time (speaking astronomically) since the
>dinosaurs' demise that the "gravity" of the Earth could have
>increased?

***{That is undeniably the case, even if the push theory of gravity is not
true, because the Earth sweeps up thousands of tons of space debris every
day, and has been doing so for billions of years. In fact, the entire mass
of the Earth--every single gram of it--is the result of the sweeping up of
space debris. (We live, as it were, on a gigantic garbage heap. :-) Thus
the Earth was undoubtdly much less massive during the age of the dinosaurs
than it is now. (The expansion of the size of the Earth, in fact, is
probably why the continents seem to be drifting apart.) --MJ}***

>
>Another thought:  Wouldn't a change in mass of particles in different
>parts of the universe imply that the physical "constants" may not be
>so constant?

***{It depends on the specific constant you have in mind, but, as a general
rule, it seems likely that most, if not all, are really variables. (In my
view, the beliefs of present-day physicists to have reached the verge of a
"theory of everything" are merely grandiose delusions: we live in a
mechanical universe that is infinite in space, time, and scale, where there
are no smallest particles, largest structures, or fastest motions, and
within which, as a consequence, scientific theories and laws can never be
more than approximations of the underlying facts. Because of that, the
physics of 1000 years hence will be as superior to the physics of today as
that of today is superior to the physics of 1000 years ago.) --MJ}***

>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 13:26:00 2000
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Here are some quotes from a recent Washington Post article by Yergin, who 
knows a lot about conventional energy. I recommend his book "The Prize."


Gas Pains In Britain, Discomfort In the U.S.
By Daniel Yergin

Sunday , September 17, 2000 ; B01

The ongoing turbulence in the world oil market engulfed Britain last week, 
almost bringing the nation to its knees in a matter of days. But what was 
really enraging the protesters who were blockading refineries and terminals 
was not the price of fuel, but the tax. Out of the $4.40 a gallon that a 
driver pays in Britain, some $3.30 is tax--or 75 percent of the retail 
price. By comparison, the average U.S. tax bite is 40 cents out of a gallon 
that costs about $1.60.

Moreover, the British tax system works in such a way that whenever the 
price of gas goes up, the tax goes up even more. . . .

. . . The focal point will be rising prices for home heating oil (used in 
10 million homes) and natural gas (used in 58 million). Retail home heating 
oil prices are about 35 percent above last year and could go up still more. 
Natural gas prices have more than doubled since the beginning of the year.

Home heating oil supplies should be adequate--with two very large "ifs." 
One is that the weather does not turn unseasonably cold. The other is that 
there are no big glitches in the logistical system that stretches from 
refineries to oil tanks. To move more heating oil more quickly, it would be 
prudent to consider temporarily lifting the ban on using non-U.S. flag 
ships to transport heating oil from refineries on the Gulf Coast to the 
Northeast. . . .

How has it happened that the energy markets have turned around so quickly? 
After all, only two years ago, gasoline prices in the United States were 
lower, on an inflation-adjusted basis, than the average during the Great 
Depression.

The No.1 reason is the Asian financial crisis of 1997-99. Asia's burgeoning 
economy had been the prize growth market for the oil industry. But as the 
region plunged into a mini-depression, its oil needs plummeted. Production 
worldwide, however, continued as before. Soon, world inventories were 
overflowing. Markets responded. Prices collapsed.

But $10 a barrel was a disaster for the exporters. Countries began to fear 
the social and political instability that could well follow in the wake of 
the price collapse. The Mexican government, for instance, depends upon oil 
for as much as 40 percent of its total revenues. The oil exporting 
nations--led by two OPEC members, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, and non-OPEC 
Mexico--instituted a series of production cutbacks that stabilized and then 
restored oil prices. But two other factors were required to turn a 
stabilized market into a tight one. First, the drastic fall in the price of 
oil threw the industry into survival mode. Spending was drastically 
reduced. Money not spent in 1997 or 1998 shows up as reduced supplies today.

The other factor is the unanticipated strength of world oil demand, 
reflecting strong economic growth. . . .

The current narrow band of spare production capacity means a tight oil 
market. That in itself does not mean a crisis. But a tight oil market is 
one that is subject to disruptions and price spikes. An obvious risk would 
be a determination by Iraq's Saddam Hussein to get into a standoff with the 
United Nations . . . Or it could be some kind of physical dislocation that 
creates a bottleneck in the complex logistical system that moves 76 million 
barrels of oil around the world every day.

At any such point, the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve--and similar 
reserves in other industrial countries--would look like a pretty good 
insurance policy. But then that could be a real crisis.


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 13:41:47 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:36:32 EDT
Subject: Re: seeing red
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In a message dated 9/28/00 1:43:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

<< Could you briefly describe what your theory has to say pro or con on the
 question as to whether the mass of particles increases with age, as Arp
 suggests?
 
 Regards, >>

I believe this to be so.  The total energy of the universe is zero.  The 
positive energy of the universe equals its negative gravitational potential.  
            
MCC =  force times distance,  where distance it the radius of the universe

As the diameter of the universe increases the distance traveled to leave it 
increases.  The mass energy of the particle must increase with its negative 
gravitational potential. Energy must be conserved.   This is a strong 
argument as it is routed in the principle of the conservation of energy.  
Applied to the birth of the universe it states that says energy was conserved 
at that moment.  See my ie article  "The Genesis of the Universe and Zero 
Point Energy".   You have either got to say that the principle of the 
Conservation of Energy does not always apply or believe that mass energy 
increases with time.  Of course you could also regress to the steady state 
theory of the universe and throw out the big bang.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 14:21:45 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:17:15 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:52:10 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{I just noticed that the following reply, which I sent off yesterday,
>never appeared on vortex, so I am sending it again.
>
>A glance at the headers indicated why the original version of this reply
>didn't make its way to vortex: Dean had his reply-to header set to point to
>his e-mail address. That's a no-no, folks! When you do that, you divert
>replies *away* from vortex, which you obviously should not do, given that
>your original post was sent to vortex.

You're right.  I don't know how the reply-to got set in Agent.
(Probably when I changed OS's I did it without thinking)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 16:24:48 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FE Device
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:19:57 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:43:06 -0800:
[snip]
>If you are referring to a brushless DC generator, then it is fairly easily
>proved that such is impossible (unless your theory goes beyond a
>conventional  Maxwell type theory.)
If this implies that a brushless DC motor is also impossible, then JLN has
an impossible motor on his website ;).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 16:53:04 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
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The Fluorescent Tubes contain Argon-Mercury (~ 10 microns cold) and
the Incandescent Light Bulbs contain ~ 2/3 atmosphere (cold)of Argon-Nitrogen,
thus it is unknown whether the LLs are created in situ, or are created by
Solar Insolation in the atmosphere and are carried through the liquefaction-separation
(Linde) process (Air is about 1% Argon). Although the "electron affinity" of Argon or Nitrogen
is "unstable"
compared to O2 or H2O they could carry over to the bulb manufacturing process.

OTOH, the 60 watt incandescent bulb filament operates a ~2810 K and could
create the LL +/- Pairs, so could the discharge in the Fluorescent Tubes.

The preliminary "pulse" experiments suggest that the 10 to 50 picoampere currents
are due to "sweeping" of the LLs to the electrodes where they saturate because their
estimated 1 to 2 angstrom diameter will not let them flow into the circuitry.

Thoughts?

Regards,   Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 17:09:24 2000
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Subject: RE: seeing red
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I haven't read Arp's book, but a couple of skeptical comments.

1) A significant amount of Arp's case rests on statistical arguments that
from our vantage point quasars appear to be clustered around galaxies in a
statistically significant way.  I have read papers from his critics (I can't
seem to find them now) that dispute his statistical analysis--i.e., some
clustering is expected in a random distribution and the overall quasar
distribution does not support Arp's case.  I don't know enough about this to
evaluate it.

2) Shouldn't we be able to directly see gravitational interaction between
quasars and their accompanying galaxies if this model is correct?  Perhaps
Arp presents evidence like this in his book.  I would think that observation
should be able to clear this up easily.

3) Shouldn't we be able to see some evidence of change in matter redshift
over time here on Earth?  Meteorites?  Aren't nuclear by-products "new
matter"?  How about redshifted photons scattered from particles created in
accelerators?

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 18:28:16 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:26:18 EDT
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
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In a message dated 9/28/00 7:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

<< The Fluorescent Tubes contain Argon-Mercury (~ 10 microns cold) and >>

What is ten microns?  I need particles 50 nm in diameter.  How can I get 
anything that size.  Are metal grains that small?   Ed Focuhe claims the 
TR-3B, a secret gravitational drive, works on a mercury plasma.  My theory 
indicates that 50nm particles loaded with hydrogen may be an energy source.  
What can you tell me about mercury particles?  Will mercury adsorb hydrogen?  
If anyone can point me to a metal hydride that tens to form 50nm particles 
let us have it.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 18:43:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:46:50 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 1:52 PM 9/28/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>***{I just noticed that the following reply, which I sent off yesterday,
>never appeared on vortex, so I am sending it again.
>
>A glance at the headers indicated why the original version of this reply
>didn't make its way to vortex: Dean had his reply-to header set to point to
>his e-mail address. That's a no-no, folks! When you do that, you divert
>replies *away* from vortex, which you obviously should not do, given that
>your original post was sent to vortex.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***


That might account for one message, but for who knows why some posts made
it through right away and others were significantly delayed.  For example
on 9/27/00 a post medit through right away at 4:31 PM (Anchorage Daylight
Time = GMT - 8:00) while a post made at 10:38 AM that day made it through
even way after the 4:31 PM post.

Here is a paranoid hypothesis for you if you are into that kind of thing!
8^) The excess time delay on posting is proportional to a product of the
following numerical rankings (1) the amount of mathematics, (2) the newness
of the subject, and (3) the amount of scent of national security interest.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:46:54 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: FE Device
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At 10:19 AM 9/29/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:43:06 -0800:
>[snip]
>>If you are referring to a brushless DC generator, then it is fairly easily
>>proved that such is impossible (unless your theory goes beyond a
>>conventional  Maxwell type theory.)
>If this implies that a brushless DC motor is also impossible, then JLN has
>an impossible motor on his website ;).


Could you be more specific?  Do you have the URL?  If you are referring to
MHD or plasma devices then that is a merely matter of semantics.  Of you
are referring to standard electrical type motor made of wires, and run
without AC current, which obviously, by symmetry, should work as a DC
generator, then yes that would qualify without a doubt as impossible by
std. EM theory.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma

FZNIDARSIC wrote:


> In a message dated 9/28/00 7:53:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << The Fluorescent Tubes contain Argon-Mercury (~ 10 microns cold) and >>
> 
> What is ten microns?

The fill pressure of the Argon-Mercury in Fluorescent Bulbs. aka 10 millitorr pressure.

FJS

>  I need particles 50 nm in diameter.  How can I get 
> anything that size.  Are metal grains that small?   Ed Focuhe claims the 
> TR-3B, a secret gravitational drive, works on a mercury plasma.  My theory 
> indicates that 50nm particles loaded with hydrogen may be an energy source.  
> What can you tell me about mercury particles?  Will mercury adsorb hydrogen?  
> If anyone can point me to a metal hydride that tens to form 50nm particles 
> let us have it.
> 
> Frank Znidarsic
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 19:00:09 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:02:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Artifact Re: Fluorescent Tube Light Lepton (or Electron) Detector
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	Dear Vo and Fred.,

	Nearly any modern DVM, or Digital Volt Meter will exhibit
fluctuating readings if connected to:

	a]	high value resistors
	b]	leads or wire lengths of about 3 inches of greater
	c]	leads on or near any situation where triboelectric charge
or charges may be generated.

	The front end of your meter should be known and defined in detail
before any type of reading is believed and-or understood... especially if
connected to any circuit or section of circuit with an impedance over 500
ohms.  Even this is to be examined unles you are operating in a properly
shielded environment... this does NOT mean inside a plastic bag with some
window screening around it. .... this means, at the very minimum a low
resistance well constructed Faraday Cage... and this will only have
efffect of a portion of artifact and will have little effect on low
frequency and-or magnetic effects.

	Specifically how will a light lepton   be distinguished from an
electron alone?
	How will pairs be distinguished from non-pairs?
	How will be corroborate or double check lepton type [s] and
 pair-non  and-or pair [s]?
	

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Hypothesis: 
> 
> The copious supply of  185 and 254 nanometer ultraviolet in a Mercury
> Discharge should create Light Lepton Pairs in the Fluorescent Tube, and
> those that don't annihilate should be in the tube, either attached to the phosphor
> or the Hg/Argon, or rattling around due to scattering by external light or EM fields.
> 
> Using a 35 year old, 4 foot, 40 watt Fluorescent Tube an experiment to
> see if Light Leptons and/or electrons could be detected by applying a
> low voltage (1.5 volts D.C.) pulse to the cold bulb.
> 
> Setup:
> 
> A 1.5 volt "C" battery was connected across the bulb through four
> 10 Megohm resistors in series using an insulated probe to complete
> the circuit intermittently (since LLs cannot flow into a circuit only a momentary
> current flow is expected) then since the external photons or EM fields can
> scatter the LLs, waiting a few minutes for the LLs to be scattered allows time  for the
> next pulse.
> 
> With a DVM across one of the 10 Megohm resistors, voltages down
> to +/- 0.1 millivolts or currents down to +/- 1.0E-11 amperes can be seen.
> 
> Results:
> 
> By using a pulse-wait-pulse cycle "pulse currents" of up to 9E-11 amperes could
> be seen. 
> 
> Rubbing the tube lightly with a cotton cloth rater than waiting, gave faster results.
> 
> Considering a field of ~ 1.5 volts/meter and about 1.0 cm mean free path, it doesn't
> seem likely that an electron- ion flow would respond in the short time that the pulse
> took to register on the DVM.
> 
> OTOH, the LL+ and LL-  with a mass 1/100,000th that of the electron could.
> 
> More work.   :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 19:11:02 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
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Following Ron's advice on using a New 60 watt bulb with a broken
filament as a "control" I proceeded to bang a new bulb on a book to break
the filament,  no dice, it took an 8 ft drop onto the kitchen floor, but still left
a slim wire connection. Putting the bulb in a 120 volt lamp socket and 
turning on the switch wiped out the filament in a flash. You can see the filaments
and support wires of the frosted bulb when you hold it up to the  light.

But, instead of a 10 to 50 picoampere pulse current the thing shows a steady
~180 picoampere current, even though the resistance is way over 30 Megohms!

IOW, it seems that New bulbs are Loaded with LL +/- Pairs and can be
scattered enough to maintain a constant current using a 1.5 or 3.0 volt battery
and three 10 Megohm series resistors , with 1.8 millivolts measured across
one of the 10 Meg series resistors.

What seems  to happen (by this conjecture) is that the Argon-Nitrogen  filled
to ~ 2/3 atm in the bulb is "loaded" with LL Pairs created from Solar Radiation
on the Biosphere and carried over to the bulb fill of Ar-N2?

Needs more research, for sure.    :-)

Regards,  Frederick


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FE Device
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:18:01 +1100
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:46:54 -0800:
[snip]
>Could you be more specific?  Do you have the URL?  If you are referring to
>MHD or plasma devices then that is a merely matter of semantics.  Of you
>are referring to standard electrical type motor made of wires, and run
>without AC current, which obviously, by symmetry, should work as a DC
>generator, then yes that would qualify without a doubt as impossible by
>std. EM theory.
[snip]
This http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm is what I was referring
to. It uses high voltage DC, and AFAIK is not a plasma device.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 19:29:37 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:25:43 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:06:28 -0700:
[snip]
>But, instead of a 10 to 50 picoampere pulse current the thing shows a steady
>~180 picoampere current, even though the resistance is way over 30 Megohms!

Hi Frederick,

I presume that is the cold resistance. Surely, when a high voltage is
applied, the remaining sharp ends of the wires and supports will tend to
ionise the gas resulting in a plasma current.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 19:33:11 2000
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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:33:02 -0700
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: RE: seeing red
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At 04:15 PM 9/28/2000 -0700, Florek, Steven wrote:

>1) A significant amount of Arp's case rests on statistical arguments that
>from our vantage point quasars appear to be clustered around galaxies in a
>statistically significant way.  I have read papers from his critics (I can't
>seem to find them now) that dispute his statistical analysis--

hmmmm.  Arp is constantly talking about the probability of a chance
alignment producing the quasar-galaxy-quasar formation that is the basis
for his idea.  Apparently, his early papers were rejected because they
didn't contain probability calculations.  When he did include copious
probability calculations for the first time, the paper was "shelved" and
remains unpublished today (see p. 13).

>2) Shouldn't we be able to directly see gravitational interaction between
>quasars and their accompanying galaxies if this model is correct?  Perhaps
>Arp presents evidence like this in his book.  I would think that observation
>should be able to clear this up easily.

How would we see their gravitation interaction?


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 19:34:12 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <b7.72c670f.2705593d aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:32:29 EDT
Subject: need advice on 50nano meter scale
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I need 50 nano meter metallic or semi metallic particles.
How can I get them?  The particles can be embedded in a 
substrate.  I though of dissolving a metal in carbon. Then
bringing the metal out of solution by quenching perhaps forming
50 nm inclusion.  I really want to know something about this.
Help please.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 20:33:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:06:28 -0700:
> [snip]
> >But, instead of a 10 to 50 picoampere pulse current the thing shows a steady
> >~180 picoampere current, even though the resistance is way over 30 Megohms!
>
> Hi Frederick,
>
> I presume that is the cold resistance. Surely, when a high voltage is
> applied, the remaining sharp ends of the wires and supports will tend to
> ionise the gas resulting in a plasma current.
> [snip]

This experiment is powered by a 1.5 volt "C" battery, Robin  :-)

Using a 1.5 volt "C" battery pair in series (3.0 volts)Doesn't increase the current, thus
indicating
that it isn't some sort of surface leakage resistance.

The low voltages were used so that ionization wouldn't be a problem.

Regards,   Frederick
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 22:57:10 2000
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Directed enegy beams that can penetrate metals/gold/aluminum?
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A neutrino beam would probably penetrate better than just about any other
beam, but how does one focus neutrinos into a beam? High energy photons
(gamma rays, extremely high frequency electromagnetic waves) penetrate best
of the more or less readily available beams. Electromagnetic waves from
soft x-ray on down in frequency do not penetrate metals well at all.
Energetic electrons, especially multi MeV or (if you can affort a huge
source, multi Gev) penetrate metals somewhat, greater penetration for
greater energy. Protons and other more massive particles penetrate less
well, for a given particle energy, than any of the beams I mentioned above.


--- ConexTom aol.com wrote:
> 
> Is anyone aware of any forms of directed energy beams that can penetrate 
> metals, gold or aluminum's?  I am aware that magnetic energy may be able
> to 
> penetrate metals and if one could direct a pure magnetic energy beam
> devoid 
> of any electrical fields at a piece of metal it may pass through it.  I
> am 
> not sure as to whether a high intensity directed radio frequency beam in
> the 
> area of UHF (hundreds of megahertz) may pass through metal? I am not sure
> 
> that a high intensity infrared laser beam can pass through metal? Are
> there 
> any other types or forms of directed energy beams that can pass through 
> metals? Your comments would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Respectively,
> 
> President, Thomas Clark
> Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
> Web site: http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
> Email: Conextom aol.com


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep 28 23:56:48 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:55:49 +1100
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:31:15 -0700:
[snip]
>This experiment is powered by a 1.5 volt "C" battery, Robin  :-)
>
>Using a 1.5 volt "C" battery pair in series (3.0 volts)Doesn't increase the current, thus
>indicating
>that it isn't some sort of surface leakage resistance.
>
>The low voltages were used so that ionization wouldn't be a problem.
Intersting...In that case, perhaps you could try it with a variable voltage
source, and see how low you need to go for the current to stop.
If there is a sharp cutoff voltage...It just occurred to me..what about a
photo-current? Do you get the same results with the bulb in the dark?
(I don't know the work function of the metals used in light bulbs off hand).

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Experiments, Control Dilemma

Robin, wrote:
>
> Interesting...In that case, perhaps you could try it with a variable voltage
> source, and see how low you need to go for the current to stop.

I did vary the voltage, 1.5 & 3.0 volts.  The lowest resolution I can get is 10 picoamperes
and with 30 Megohms total series resistance the highest  current ( with 3.0 volts) is 3.0E-7
amperes.

> If there is a sharp cutoff voltage...

Don't know, yet.

> It just occurred to me..what about a
> photo-current?

Not likely with room lighting, but these photons ( 1.6 to 4.0 ev in the visible spectrum)can
kick
the  ~ 1.5 ev to 2.44 ev LLs all around.

> Do you get the same results with the bulb in the dark?

Good question. The experiment needs to be done a Lot More Carefully than the
present setup to reduce artifacts to a minimum.

> (I don't know the work function of the metals used in light bulbs off hand).

Mostly tungsten and nickel which have work functions of ~ 4.5 ev.

Regards,   Frederick

> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 09:19:10 2000
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Horace Heffner wrote:

Arp's hypothesis is that particles accumulate mass with
>age.  If that is true then there should be a variety of mass/charge ratios
>represented in a bubble chamber.

***{Not if the mass of a particle is equal to the sum of the absolute
values of the charges that it contains. [I.e., m = k�(|q1| +  |q2| + |q3|
+ ... + |qn|).] In that case, the sort of lightweight matter Arp is talking
about would be composed of fractionally charged positrons and electrons,
and thus a proton consisting of 918 electrons and 919 positrons would net
out at plus one *fractional* charge--which means: a charge less than +1.
For example, if, in a quasar newly ejected from a parent galaxy, an
electron has a fractional charge of -0.62 and a positron has a fractional
charge of +0.62, then a proton consisting of 918 electrons and 919
positrons will also have a fractional charge of +0.62. Note, however, that
in this case the ratio of the mass of a particle to the sum of the absolute
values of the contained charges would be the same as it is for particles of
that type in the heavyweight matter with which we are more familiar.
--MJ}***

I think this is not the case.  It would
>be VERY unlikely that pair creation in an accelerator target should
>coincidentally provide pairs that appear to be exactly the same age as
>those electrons around it

***{It depends on the mechanism of pair production. In our region of space,
pair production occurs when a gamma photon bearing at least 1.022 MeV
passes into the intense electric field surrounding a nucleus, thereby
giving rise to a positron and an electron, with any excess over 1.022 MeV
taking the form of kinetic energy. However, it is not known whether the
resulting positron and electron were contained in the gamma photon, or were
somehow ejected from the nucleus itself in a more complex interaction. If
the former, then we would expect the 1.02 MeV cutoff energy to apply
throughout the universe. On the other hand, if the ejected electron and
positron are selected from among those already preexisting within the
nucleus, then we would expect that a photon bearing less than 1.02 MeV
might strike one of Arp's lightweight atoms, and eject from it a
lightweight positron and a lightweight electron. That would mean pair
creation in an accelerator on Earth would eject the heavyweight electrons
and positrons that we are used to, while pair production in a newly created
galaxy would eject lightweight electrons and positrons of the sort that
were available there. --MJ}***


, PLUS all the (old) electrons in the vicinty
>should be exactly the same age

***{Correct: the electrons, positrons, protons, etc., in the galaxy that
ejected the quasar would have been born when they were ejected from a black
hole at the center of some earlier galaxy, and hence would be much older
and heavier than the atoms in the quasar which they ejected. --MJ}***

  - unless of course they were (in vast
>majority) created in the big bang.  However, if that is true, i.e. that
>nearly all electrons are either the age of the universe or brand new

***{No. There would be an infinite gradation of ages of matter, depending
on the date when the galaxy containing the matter was birthed by a parent
galaxy. --MJ}***

, and
>share exactly the same mass, then you are essentialy right back to denying
>the aging electron theory, and more importantly the reason for the red
>shift.

***{In my view, the universe always existed, and is infinite in extent.
However, even if I assume for the sake of argument that a "Big Bang"
happened, I still don't see the logic that leads you to conclude that there
would be only two ages of matter. If Arp's notion is correct in its general
outlines, then matter gets heavier as it ages, and has a birth date.
Result: the ages, degrees of heaviness, and redshifts associated with
galaxies would be immensely variable. --MJ}***

>
>I hope this reasoning doesn't seem too circular for you!
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

***{By the way, there is a well-known tendency for the angular diameter of
a galaxy to be inversely proportional to the degree of its redshift, and
that could be used to argue against Arp's theory. The reason: by his theory
the redshifted quasars at great distances should be accompanied by parent
galaxies at approximately the same distance. Those parent galaxies would be
older and, thus, less redshifted. Hence one is tempted to think that there
should be no inverse correlation between the angular diameter of a galaxy
and the degree of its redshift.

However, I believe such an argument would also be unsound, because it seems
obvious to me--and I have so stated for years on various internet
forums--that "black holes" do not behave in the way expected by Einstein.
To be specific, they are *not* sinks from which neither matter nor energy
can escape. This is apparent from various astronomical photos that
*clearly* show beams of matter being emitted along the polar axes of
galaxies. Thus I concluded long ago that the beams in question are the
sources of the ultramundane corpuscles which, by the LeSage theory, give
rise to gravitation. What happens is that the intense gravitational
attraction of a black hole applies only in the plane of its rotation. The
material that is sucked in gets reduced to the form of ultramundane
corpuscles and ejected along the axis of rotation, along with a stream of
matter that is caught up in the beam. (This is apparently the material
which, according to Arp, consists of lightweight, newly created matter.)
Result: galaxies exhibit gravitational attraction along their planes of
rotation and axial repulsion--antigravity--along their poles. Since the
universe is infinite, a straight line extended in any direction will
eventually come to a galaxy that has its polar axis aligned along that
line, and so any given point in space will be bombarded by ultramundane
corpuscles from all directions, and will experience the effect that we call
gravity.

The clear implication of such a theory is that our infinite mechanical
universe is also an *expanding* universe, because a cluster of randomly
oriented nearby galaxies will, due to axial repulsion among its members,
expand until it forms a huge "bubble" in which lines extended along the
axes of the various galaxies will meet at a common center. And after such a
bubble has formed, it will expand, and will repel other bubbles. This, in
turn, will give rise to a generalized tendency toward expansion of the
universe. Result: in addition to the type of redshift proposed by Arp,
there will also be the type proposed by Hubble. Thus, since the more
distant galaxies will be moving away from us more rapidly, there will be a
tendency for the degree of redshift to correlate inversely with angular
diameter *despite* the fact that Arp's theory does not require that to
happen.

--Mitchell Jones}***

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Sep 29, 2000
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 29 Sep 00   Washington, DC

UPDATE ON ROBERT PARK'S CONDITION.  Arrows are all pointing up!

1. "THE BOMBS BURSTING IN AIR."  House Science Committee Chairman
James Sensenbrenner and Senate Science, Technology and Space
Subcommittee Chairman Bill Frist fired extraordinary verbal
volleys over the Capitol last week.  Frist, co-chairman of the
Senate S&T Caucus, is one of the principal architects of
legislation - twice before passed by the Senate - that would
double federal civilian research budgets over ten years. 
Sensenbrenner, who has repeatedly blocked House action, unloaded
first, vowing that "the House will not pass a long-term
authorization bill...that undermines the future work of the
Science Committee."  Frist fired back by having the Senate pass
the bill a third time, again unanimously, with two information
technology bills attached that Sensenbrenner wants enacted.  And
he harshly reprimanded his GOP colleague, stating first, "You are
holding [the doubling bill] up to a higher standard than you do
your own...." and then warning he would not pass the IT bills
separately, noting it would violate agreements Sensenbrenner and
he had already struck.  Meanwhile, appropriators are moving
steadily toward the doubling scenario, letting Sensenbrenner's
blasts echo silently.  Next year, he can fire away from the House
Judiciary Committee as its senior GOP member.  WN can't wait.

2. MARCHING TO DIFFERENT DRUMMERS.  At a National Academies
Workshop on Scientific Communication and National Security,
Presidential Science Advisor Neal Lane pledged adherence to
President Reagan's 1985 national security directive that exempts
fundamental research from security restrictions.  Trouble is the
Departments of State, Energy and Commerce have a different view
for any research that relies on "sensitive" technologies,
according to administrators.  Meanwhile, former Senator Howard
Baker and former Representative Lee Hamilton, in a report to DOE,
warned that tight security measures now in place at the labs may
pose a bigger threat to national security than the potential loss
of secret information.  Shh, guys, that's classified info.

3. MEA CULPA.  As senators chastised Attorney General Reno and
FBI Director Freeh for bungling the Wen Ho Lee case, the New York
Times chastised itself for falling short of its standards in its
early coverage of the matter.  The NYT should take a cue from WN.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily share by the APS, but they should be.)
This week's WN was written by Michael Lubell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 13:19:46 2000
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: FE Device
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On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> This http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm is what I was referring
> to. It uses high voltage DC, and AFAIK is not a plasma device.

But he measures tens of uA of direct current.  The circuit path is through
the air gaps.  How can it NOT be a corona effect (or air ions effect?)

If charge is going into a metal cylinder via a wire, then for DC it must
also be leaving that metal cylinder at some other point.  It has to flow
through the air.  The obvious jumping-off point is in the gap between
rotor and stator. 

If the current goes to zero when the rotor is held still, that just means
that... the corona goes to zero when the rotor is held still!


Probable explanation for zero current when stalled:  the corona in the gap
between each stator and the surface of the rotor deposits charge from one
metal stator cylinder onto the closest surface of the plastic rotor. The
rotor surface now has an alike charge, so the e-field across the air gap
between rotor and stator becomes low, therefore the corona is quenched,
and no further charge can flow.  The rotor now acts like a capacitor where
the inner metal coating is one plate, and the deposited ions on the
plastic surface acts like the oppositely-charged plate. (There would be a
second capacitor at the other stator.)  Only if the rotor can rotate and
expose uncharged plastic surface will the corona reappear and "paint" more
charge onto the rotor. 

This kind of behavior is typical of DC electrostatic motors; when you
stall them, the torque remains high, but the current goes to zero because
the charged regions are no longer moving away from the "brushes" which
deposit that charge. 

In JLN's motor at http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm, the
inner foil on the rotor would be at half the potential of the HV stator.
That means there must be a very high voltage between each stator and the
rotor.  (without that inner foil coating, this motor wouldn't work.)  With
the foil coating present, corona would appear in the gaps, but only until
sufficient charge was deposited on the plastic.  Rotating the rotor would
cause more corona current, just has he found.  Sharp edges trigger corona,
so the sharp edge of the rotor's inner foil probably starts the corona in
the air above that edge, and it spreads from there across the surface. 

JLN should try running this motor in total darkness while taking a
long-exposure photograph.  That should plainly show the location of any
corona. 

Sharp combs or knife edges on the surface of the stators would allow this
motor to operate at a far lower voltage (like maybe 5KV, rather than the
28KV he was using.)  Now that I mention it, his motor resembles
Jefimenko's knife-edge corona motor, but with large smooth electrodes
rather than knife edges.  Smooth electrodes won't stop corona, they will
just keep the motor from working until the power supply voltage is raised
high enough to create corona even on smooth electrodes. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 13:33:10 2000
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Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Argon-Mercury Discharge
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Based on the electrical behavior of the Fluorescent Discharge Tube I
think that Light Lepton Pairs (+/-)are copiously produced in the ~ 10 Millitorr
discharge.

Further I propose that the LL+ is tied up with an electron to  form an "Electrino"
with a binding energy of ~ 13.6 ev (somewhat similar to Positronium) thus leaving
the LL- free to participate in the discharge.

This seems to be borne out by the experiment where a 1.5 volt potential applied
across a 4 foot long 1 1/2 inch diameter fluorescent tube shows a picoampere 
current pulse due to sweeping of the LL- charges to the cold electrodes.

If this is the case, introducing H2 or D2 into the discharge should allow uptake of
the LL- by a proton or deuteron as well as formation of the "Electrino":

H+  +  LL- --->   Neutral P* + Energy (EUV like Mills proposes for his "Hydrino").

D+  + LL-  ----> Neutral D* + Energy (EUV)  ?  Kev

Then:  P + P* ---->  D  +  neutrino +  LL-  +  ~ 2.2 Mev

          P* + D ---->  T  +  neutrino + LL-   +   ?  Mev

          D* + D ---->  He4 + LL-  +   ~ 24.0 Mev

And so on.

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 14:48:59 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FE Device
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:47:40 +1100
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:18:44 -0700
(PDT):

>On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> This http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm is what I was referring
>> to. It uses high voltage DC, and AFAIK is not a plasma device.
>
>But he measures tens of uA of direct current.  The circuit path is through
>the air gaps.  How can it NOT be a corona effect (or air ions effect?)
>
>If charge is going into a metal cylinder via a wire, then for DC it must
>also be leaving that metal cylinder at some other point.  It has to flow
>through the air.  The obvious jumping-off point is in the gap between
>rotor and stator. 
>
>If the current goes to zero when the rotor is held still, that just means
>that... the corona goes to zero when the rotor is held still!

You make an excellent argument, and I am inclined to accept it, pending
further testing as suggested.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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> hmmmm.  Arp is constantly talking about the probability of a chance
> alignment producing the quasar-galaxy-quasar formation that 
> is the basis
> for his idea.  Apparently, his early papers were rejected because they
> didn't contain probability calculations.  When he did include copious
> probability calculations for the first time, the paper was 
> "shelved" and
> remains unpublished today (see p. 13).

I wish I could remember where I read the paper that challenged his
statistics.  I'm not saying that Arp's hypothesis has been shown to be
wrong--I'm just informing the group what some mainstream astronomers have
said about it.

> >2) Shouldn't we be able to directly see gravitational 
> interaction between
> >quasars and their accompanying galaxies if this model is 
> correct?  Perhaps
> >Arp presents evidence like this in his book.  I would think 
> that observation
> >should be able to clear this up easily.
> 
> How would we see their gravitation interaction?

The same way we infer the presence of planets and black holes today--by
measuring wobbles in either the galaxy's or the quasar's paths.  Some of
these quasars are supposed to be moving at 10% of the speed of light in
Arp's hypothesis, so the movement ought to be detectable in reasonable
timescales (I think).  I understand that part of the book shows visual
evidence in the form of visible tendrils connecting galaxies and quasars
together--that would be pretty dramatic evidence too.  I understand that the
mainstream thinking here is that such phenomena are illusions due to
gravitational lensing but if enough of these observations are found that
argument will become difficult to justify.

It's also possible that Arp could be half-right--that quasars are indeed
associated with galaxies but that the extreme redshift observed is due to
some other special unknown property of quasars.

-Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 20:03:33 2000
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 http://www.boni.com/rotary/hydrogen/referenc/Presskit.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 20:42:39 2000
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Subject: Re: FE Device
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I think this is the correct explanation. It fits all the facts we know. 
I'll just add my comment, that JNL's Poynting vector is ambiguously drawn.
Of course, all electric systems have a non zero Poynting vector if there is
any power flow at all. On this basis, the Poynting vector simply says that,
"electromagnetic energy is flowing in such-and-such direciton."

--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> > This http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm is what I was
> referring
> > to. It uses high voltage DC, and AFAIK is not a plasma device.
> 
> But he measures tens of uA of direct current.  The circuit path is
> through
> the air gaps.  How can it NOT be a corona effect (or air ions effect?)
> 
> If charge is going into a metal cylinder via a wire, then for DC it must
> also be leaving that metal cylinder at some other point.  It has to flow
> through the air.  The obvious jumping-off point is in the gap between
> rotor and stator. 
> 
> If the current goes to zero when the rotor is held still, that just means
> that... the corona goes to zero when the rotor is held still!
> 
> 
> Probable explanation for zero current when stalled:  the corona in the
> gap
> between each stator and the surface of the rotor deposits charge from one
> metal stator cylinder onto the closest surface of the plastic rotor. The
> rotor surface now has an alike charge, so the e-field across the air gap
> between rotor and stator becomes low, therefore the corona is quenched,
> and no further charge can flow.  The rotor now acts like a capacitor
> where
> the inner metal coating is one plate, and the deposited ions on the
> plastic surface acts like the oppositely-charged plate. (There would be a
> second capacitor at the other stator.)  Only if the rotor can rotate and
> expose uncharged plastic surface will the corona reappear and "paint"
> more
> charge onto the rotor. 
> 
> This kind of behavior is typical of DC electrostatic motors; when you
> stall them, the torque remains high, but the current goes to zero because
> the charged regions are no longer moving away from the "brushes" which
> deposit that charge. 
> 
> In JLN's motor at http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm, the
> inner foil on the rotor would be at half the potential of the HV stator.
> That means there must be a very high voltage between each stator and the
> rotor.  (without that inner foil coating, this motor wouldn't work.) 
> With
> the foil coating present, corona would appear in the gaps, but only until
> sufficient charge was deposited on the plastic.  Rotating the rotor would
> cause more corona current, just has he found.  Sharp edges trigger
> corona,
> so the sharp edge of the rotor's inner foil probably starts the corona in
> the air above that edge, and it spreads from there across the surface. 
> 
> JLN should try running this motor in total darkness while taking a
> long-exposure photograph.  That should plainly show the location of any
> corona. 
> 
> Sharp combs or knife edges on the surface of the stators would allow this
> motor to operate at a far lower voltage (like maybe 5KV, rather than the
> 28KV he was using.)  Now that I mention it, his motor resembles
> Jefimenko's knife-edge corona motor, but with large smooth electrodes
> rather than knife edges.  Smooth electrodes won't stop corona, they will
> just keep the motor from working until the power supply voltage is raised
> high enough to create corona even on smooth electrodes. 
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
> )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST
> website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird
> science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L
> webhead-L
> 


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 22:04:39 2000
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Here's a message from JL Naudin's forum http://www.egroups.com/jlnlabs/
Really cool video!  I wonder if the sculpture is for sale?  (And how small
can he make 'em?)



From: Stefan Hartmann  <harti h...>
Date: Sat Sep 23, 2000 9:31am
Subject: TOMI and Finsrud videos online !
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just converted an older video from Svein Utne to ASF format
> and also scaled it up to 320x240 of the Finsrud perpetual motion machine
> from Norway. Unfortunately it was just 5 frames/sec,
> so it stayed  a bit jerky...
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://overunity.terrashare.com/finsrud/index.htm

<snip>


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep 29 23:13:35 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Kicking the quantum vacuum
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:11:04 +1100
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Hi,

If the quantum vacuum comprises a seething sea of particles that appear and
disappear again, then just suppose it were possible to electromagnetically
accelerate such particles in one direction during the brief moment that they
existed. 
The result would be a thrust against "nothing" :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: Re: Kicking the quantum vacuum
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:11 PM
Subject: Kicking the quantum vacuum

Robin wrote:


> Hi,
> 
> If the quantum vacuum comprises a seething sea of particles that appear and
> disappear again, then just suppose it were possible to electromagnetically
> accelerate such particles in one direction during the brief moment that they
> existed. 
> The result would be a thrust against "nothing" :).

Now you're in the realm of the T.T. Brown "Antigravity Capacitor" where 
the  "Kick" is due to the non-symmetry of the "particle sea".

Think about it.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 00:23:16 2000
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From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Kicking the quantum vacuum
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Would it be similar to one plate of a two plate capacitor disappearing?
Joseph Hiddink's "Capacity Changer" US4095162 does this to generate
momentarily large voltages.  Ionizable gas acts as the second "plate" and
when switched off changes from a 2 terminal capacitor to a 1 terminal
capacitor.

Patent description page 4, lines 13 to 25:
"A 2 terminal capacity of 10 microfarads, charged up to 10kV would be 1/10
Coulom (Q equals CV).  If the capacity of the sphere was 100pF, the
potential which generated is momentarily about 100 million volts."

Joseph Hiddink says that he found 1200 applications, one being; two of the
same polarity, point charges (spheres) of 1 coulomb, 1 meter apart, the
repelling force is one million tons.  How does one generate 10 microfarads
from gaseous discharge tubes with an outside conducting surface?

Regards,   Michael Randall


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:11 PM
Subject: Kicking the quantum vacuum


> Hi,
>
> If the quantum vacuum comprises a seething sea of particles that appear
and
> disappear again, then just suppose it were possible to electromagnetically
> accelerate such particles in one direction during the brief moment that
they
> existed.
> The result would be a thrust against "nothing" :).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> It's no good telling people to stop doing whatever they do
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 01:26:38 2000
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Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:25:57 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Kicking the quantum vacuum
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Robin -

At 5:11 PM +1100 9/30/00, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>If the quantum vacuum comprises a seething sea of particles that appear and
>disappear again, then just suppose it were possible to electromagnetically
>accelerate such particles in one direction during the brief moment that they
>existed.
>The result would be a thrust against "nothing" :).

Like Frederick said, and maybe even more of a kick if there's a flow 
of something along the potential, more forcibly entraining the 
particles. For electricity as the flow, the effect might best be seen 
in a one-way surge and not the usual roundabout circuit - like a 
surge from one electrode to another or an increasing current for a 
linear kick. Or through a "grav-capacitor" in a cascading dielectric 
breakdown surge. Maybe a surge around a circuit makes a torque within 
the conducting mass carrying it? Marinov motors?

If this works, other things might entrain or order the flow in some 
way. A spinning mass might swerve some of the particles off their 
course with the direction of the mass when they encountered it, 
making it look overall like there's a twist in space close to the 
spinning surface. A charged, or perhaps odd-numbered nucleon mass 
might do even better. And when you apply force to an ordinary mass to 
accelerate it, it might experience an inductive-like resistence to 
that motion. But once you got it up to speed, it would resist any 
attempt to ... oh! I get it now!  ;)

Hey, I wonder if when you add heat to a mass, it would disturb the 
particles' flow equally in all directions through and within the 
mass, making the mass appear lighter?  <Those "tribo-gravity" 
experiments worked after all! 8-0 >

 From Don Henley's song "Dirty Laundry": "Kick 'em when they're up, 
kick 'em when they're down, kick 'em where they sit, kick 'em all 
around..."

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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At 11:17 AM 9/29/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>Arp's hypothesis is that particles accumulate mass with
>>age.  If that is true then there should be a variety of mass/charge ratios
>>represented in a bubble chamber.



>***{Not if the mass of a particle is equal to the sum of the absolute
>values of the charges that it contains.

There is no foundation for this hypothesis.  The only evidence for
fractional charge is that due to 1/3 and 2/3 charge on quarks, and the
splitting of charge due to the wave nature of particles.  Do you know of
any other?


>[I.e., m = k�(|q1| +  |q2| + |q3|
>+ ... + |qn|).] In that case, the sort of lightweight matter Arp is talking
>about would be composed of fractionally charged positrons and electrons,
>and thus a proton consisting of 918 electrons and 919 positrons would net
>out at plus one *fractional* charge--which means: a charge less than +1.


Is 918 a number you picked arbitrarily?  If electrons and protrons are made
of fractional microcharges then why do the microcharges not show up in
collisions?


>For example, if, in a quasar newly ejected from a parent galaxy, an
>electron has a fractional charge of -0.62 and a positron has a fractional
>charge of +0.62, then a proton consisting of 918 electrons and 919
>positrons will also have a fractional charge of +0.62. Note, however, that
>in this case the ratio of the mass of a particle to the sum of the absolute
>values of the contained charges would be the same as it is for particles of
>that type in the heavyweight matter with which we are more familiar.
>--MJ}***


Again, a problem with your corpuscular theory is that there is nothing to
prevent exchange of small units of microcharges (or even neutral corpuscles
if they exist) between electrons and electrons, or electrons and protons,
or protons and protons.  We would thus see, in a plasma, blurred spectral
lines as collisions between these particles provide the opportunity for the
(semi-permanent) exchange of microcharges.

Another problem with this idea is that either some "ultramundane
corpuscles" are charged or not.  If they are charged, then unlike
corpuscles will on average be diverted to and absorbed by oppositely
charged particles.  This would either result in a mass annihilation,
producing detectable radiation, plus a mass DECREASE, or if such
annihilation can not occur, would result in a variable mass/charge ratio,
which would have been detected.   In the case of the existence of and
absorbtion of non-charged ultramundane corpuscles, the mass/charge ratio
must change as they are absorbed.  This would be seen in a variety of
experiments where results clearly show quantized units and fixed
mass/charge ratios.  In collisions,  corpuscles would spill out in the
bubble chambers and their energies would register in fractions of the
energies for electrons/protrons with a given path radius.  This is not
seen, therefore such ultramundane corpuscles can not be absorbed long term,
and thus can not account for the red shift.



>
>I think this is not the case.  It would
>>be VERY unlikely that pair creation in an accelerator target should
>>coincidentally provide pairs that appear to be exactly the same age as
>>those electrons around it

>
>***{It depends on the mechanism of pair production.


No!  To be consistent with reality, your corpuscular theory has to apply to
ALL mechanisms. IF any situation denies a theory, then it is denied.


>In our region of space,
>pair production occurs when a gamma photon bearing at least 1.022 MeV
>passes into the intense electric field surrounding a nucleus, thereby
>giving rise to a positron and an electron, with any excess over 1.022 MeV
>taking the form of kinetic energy.


There are various means of pair production in the lab.  I believe
experiments have produced pairs from photon-photon interaction alone (I
think I saw it in AIP news.)  There is evidence that free electrons
continually create pairs form the vacuum, thus self-annihilating leaving a
new free electron  (also AIP news.  I don't understand why there is no
gamma radiation, other than the fact the energy is borrowed, but my lack of
understanding does not discount the possibility.)  Pairs are created in
lots of ways as short-lived particles disintegrate.  If they could have
fractional masses the evidence would be overwhelming by now.


>However, it is not known whether the
>resulting positron and electron were contained in the gamma photon, or were
>somehow ejected from the nucleus itself in a more complex interaction. If
>the former, then we would expect the 1.02 MeV cutoff energy to apply
>throughout the universe. On the other hand, if the ejected electron and
>positron are selected from among those already preexisting within the
>nucleus, then we would expect that a photon bearing less than 1.02 MeV
>might strike one of Arp's lightweight atoms, and eject from it a
>lightweight positron and a lightweight electron. That would mean pair
>creation in an accelerator on Earth would eject the heavyweight electrons
>and positrons that we are used to, while pair production in a newly created
>galaxy would eject lightweight electrons and positrons of the sort that
>were available there. --MJ}***


Why would the like microcharges stick together?  This theory requires giant
leaps of faith.  It requires (1) a new force to stick the charges together,
and the force has to have the special quality that (2) particles of like
charge can be accreted over time, but  (3) unlike charges can not be
acreted or even annihilated on an incremental basis, and thus (4) the
microcharges can never be separated again until total particle annihilation
occurs by collision with an antiparticle of like age.  This is beyond the
realm of reason and into some kind of non-physics, IMHO.  It is a matter of
faith more than science.


>
>
>, PLUS all the (old) electrons in the vicinty
>>should be exactly the same age
>
>***{Correct: the electrons, positrons, protons, etc., in the galaxy that
>ejected the quasar would have been born when they were ejected from a black
>hole at the center of some earlier galaxy, and hence would be much older
>and heavier than the atoms in the quasar which they ejected. --MJ}***
>
>  - unless of course they were (in vast
>>majority) created in the big bang.  However, if that is true, i.e. that
>>nearly all electrons are either the age of the universe or brand new
>
>***{No. There would be an infinite gradation of ages of matter, depending
>on the date when the galaxy containing the matter was birthed by a parent
>galaxy. --MJ}***


The above conclusion that such a gradation is possible is unsound for the
reasons previously outlined.


>
>, and
>>share exactly the same mass, then you are essentialy right back to denying
>>the aging electron theory, and more importantly the reason for the red
>>shift.
>
>***{In my view, the universe always existed, and is infinite in extent.
>However, even if I assume for the sake of argument that a "Big Bang"
>happened, I still don't see the logic that leads you to conclude that there
>would be only two ages of matter.


My conclusion was that there are only two ages of matter HERE.  (Admittedly
some  amount matter could arrive here from distant galaxies, e.g. cosmic
rays, but let's ignore that for now.)  This is based on Scott Little's
observation that all the galacies, regardless of direction, are red shifted
relative to us.  If the red shift is age based, not velocity based, then
that makes US the oldest galaxy in the universed (so far observed.)



>If Arp's notion is correct in its general
>outlines, then matter gets heavier as it ages, and has a birth date.
>Result: the ages, degrees of heaviness, and redshifts associated with
>galaxies would be immensely variable. --MJ}***


There is no reason that the "birth" method should not be reproducible in
the lab.  It is apparently not.

>
>>
>>I hope this reasoning doesn't seem too circular for you!
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>
>***{By the way, there is a well-known tendency for the angular diameter of
>a galaxy to be inversely proportional to the degree of its redshift, and
>that could be used to argue against Arp's theory. The reason: by his theory
>the redshifted quasars at great distances should be accompanied by parent
>galaxies at approximately the same distance. Those parent galaxies would be
>older and, thus, less redshifted. Hence one is tempted to think that there
>should be no inverse correlation between the angular diameter of a galaxy
>and the degree of its redshift.
>
>However, I believe such an argument would also be unsound, because it seems
>obvious to me--and I have so stated for years on various internet
>forums--that "black holes" do not behave in the way expected by Einstein.
>To be specific, they are *not* sinks from which neither matter nor energy
>can escape. This is apparent from various astronomical photos that
>*clearly* show beams of matter being emitted along the polar axes of
>galaxies.


As previously noted, it is clearly (to me anyway) possible for matter to
escape SYSTEMS of black holes, and such an escape would tend to take the
form of polar jets due to the flatness of galaxies.  I don't personally
think the jets to which you refer are coming from single black holes.



>Thus I concluded long ago that the beams in question are the
>sources of the ultramundane corpuscles which, by the LeSage theory, give
>rise to gravitation.


I have provided a proof above that either this theory is not possible, or else a
LOT more explanation is necessary.


>What happens is that the intense gravitational
>attraction of a black hole applies only in the plane of its rotation. The
>material that is sucked in gets reduced to the form of ultramundane
>corpuscles and ejected along the axis of rotation, along with a stream of
>matter that is caught up in the beam. (This is apparently the material
>which, according to Arp, consists of lightweight, newly created matter.)


I have shown that a non-symmetric relativistic EM force exists that should
create polar jets about non-black holes.  However, such mechanics can not
apply to black holes because the em force can not be mediated from inside
them to the outside due to gravitation attracting the EM force mediating
photons.



>Result: galaxies exhibit gravitational attraction along their planes of
>rotation and axial repulsion--antigravity--along their poles. Since the
>universe is infinite, a straight line extended in any direction will
>eventually come to a galaxy that has its polar axis aligned along that
>line, and so any given point in space will be bombarded by ultramundane
>corpuscles from all directions, and will experience the effect that we call
>gravity.


Of course this argument falls apart at the edge of the galaxy, if the
geometry of space permits such an edge.  This "gravity" disappears at the
edge of the universe, becomming one directional - outward. There could thus
be no distinct bodies, like galaxies, existant at the edge of the universe,
becuase there is no source for the gravity.


>
>The clear implication of such a theory is that our infinite mechanical
>universe is also an *expanding* universe, because a cluster of randomly
>oriented nearby galaxies will, due to axial repulsion among its members,
>expand until it forms a huge "bubble" in which lines extended along the
>axes of the various galaxies will meet at a common center.


My non-conservative equatorial vs polar EM force provides a means for just
such a lateral repulsion  of galaxies into "bubbles."


>And after such a
>bubble has formed, it will expand, and will repel other bubbles. This, in
>turn, will give rise to a generalized tendency toward expansion of the
>universe. Result: in addition to the type of redshift proposed by Arp,
>there will also be the type proposed by Hubble. Thus, since the more
>distant galaxies will be moving away from us more rapidly, there will be a
>tendency for the degree of redshift to correlate inversely with angular
>diameter *despite* the fact that Arp's theory does not require that to
>happen.


Unfortuantely, by this theory, there can not exist any galaxies near the
edge of the universe to be seen departing.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: FE Device
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At 1:18 PM 9/29/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:46:54 -0800:
>[snip]
>>Could you be more specific?  Do you have the URL?  If you are referring to
>>MHD or plasma devices then that is a merely matter of semantics.  Of you
>>are referring to standard electrical type motor made of wires, and run
>>without AC current, which obviously, by symmetry, should work as a DC
>>generator, then yes that would qualify without a doubt as impossible by
>>std. EM theory.
>[snip]
>This http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/pftm2.htm is what I was referring
>to. It uses high voltage DC, and AFAIK is not a plasma device.


Oh, OK.  This is a purely electrostatic motor and thus actually outside the
realm of the easy proof to which I refer, which is based on closed magnetic
lines of force.   I should have been more specific.  However, electostatic
machines also can be proven to conserve energy, under Maxwell, but perhaps
the proof is not so easily understood.  It is based on the notion the
electrostatic field potential, and the fact there can be no closed path
through the electrostatic field that produces an energy gain.

I also note, though it is immaterial to the main point, that the machine
involves electrostatically polarized rotors that carry current, so there is
a "brush" action to get the current to flow to and through the rotating
parts, despite the claims of a "brushless" verison.

Thanks for the reference.  Naudin does a lot of fun, interesting, and
controversial stuff, and this motor is no exception!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 07:41:19 2000
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Horace Heffner wrote:

... Scott Little's observation
that all the galaxies, regardless of direction, are red
shifted relative to us.  If the red shift is age based,
not velocity based, then that makes US the oldest galaxy
in the universed (so far observed.)

Hi All,

Did Scott write "that ALL the galaxies, regardless of
direction, are red shifted relative to us?"  I would
appreciate some data reference (on the web if possible)
for this.

However, it should not surprise us if this is what the 
data show:  If matter is continuously being created, then
all portions of the universe must be moving away from 
each other, unless the density of the universe is increasing.
(It would be nice to have a data reference for the density
of the universe at various distances from us.)

The gross redshift we observe for any object may be the 
result of a variety of processes.  What is most interesting
is the DIFFERENCE in redshift among objects which have
some connection, as for example the observed positional 
relationship between a quasar and its parent galaxy. 

Jack Smith


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At 6:39 AM 9/30/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>... Scott Little's observation
>that all the galaxies, regardless of direction, are red
>shifted relative to us.  If the red shift is age based,
>not velocity based, then that makes US the oldest galaxy
>in the universed (so far observed.)
>
>Hi All,
>
>Did Scott write "that ALL the galaxies, regardless of
>direction, are red shifted relative to us?"  I would
>appreciate some data reference (on the web if possible)
>for this.

Actually, this was a bit of an overstatement on my part. Following is a review:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 8:00 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote (privately because vortex was
rejecting messages):

>hmmmmm.  Why then don't we see a whole lot of the Universe blue shifted
>w.r.t. us?   Are we the oldest matter out there?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 7:34 PM 9/27/0, Horace Heffner wrote (on ovrtex):
>At 8:00 PM 9/27/0, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>>....er....uh....then it looks like we're in agreement with Halton Arp.
>>New, low mass matter is relatively redshifted.  As it ages and gains mass,
>>it blue shifts up to what we call normal here on Earth.
>
>
>Ohhhhhh!!!  (Slaps forehead!)  Somehow my brain got all backwards in the
>process.  I think it is due to a burned-in predisposition to believe
>quasars are OLD!   Sometimes it is really hard to shift into a new
>paradigm!
[snip]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There are stars which are blue shifted with respect to us, but as far as I
know, distant galaxies are all red shifted.  I don't know if there are a
few nearby galaxies exhibiting net blue shift.

The assumption on my part is warranted, in general, though there may be a
few freak galaxies, because the existence of hubbles constant H =
speed/distance = (15 - 30 km/sec)/(10^6 light years) says it all.  The fact
that H is a constant says that the farther away a galaxy is from us, the
more red shifted it is.  That implies there are few galaxies, if any, that
are blue shifted. As Scott Said, "Are we the oldest matter out there?"



>
>However, it should not surprise us if this is what the
>data show:  If matter is continuously being created, then
>all portions of the universe must be moving away from
>each other, unless the density of the universe is increasing.
>(It would be nice to have a data reference for the density
>of the universe at various distances from us.)
>
>The gross redshift we observe for any object may be the
>result of a variety of processes.  What is most interesting
>is the DIFFERENCE in redshift among objects which have
>some connection, as for example the observed positional
>relationship between a quasar and its parent galaxy.

Yes.  I think, but am uncertain, that one of the initial means of
confirming Hubble's hypothesis, beyond the use of cephid variables, which
led to his conclusion regarding red shift, was to observe the spreading of
spectral lines in nearby galaxies, which rotate.

If quasars came from distant galactic centers, created as jets from
multibody black hole interactions, then I would expect the red shifts of
the pairs to be matched in a way corresponding to the quasars going in
opposite directions, with the related galaxy having a red shift between the
two.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Science Roundup
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:33:26 -0400
From: AAAS Member Services <memuser aaas.org>
Reply-To: AAAS Member Services <memuser aaas.org>
To: "Science" <scienceroundup laser.sparklist.com>

Welcome to the latest issue of Science Roundup, sponsored by 
Informax, Inc.

PLEASE NOTE: There are links throughout Science Roundup to 
articles on Science Online (http://www.scienceonline.org).  You 
must be a subscriber to Science Online to read the full text of the 
articles.  Abstracts, however, are available free of charge.

----
First, a very quick word from our sponsor.

Informax presents "High-Throughput Research: Enhanced Biological 
Data Mining and Integrated Genomic Analysis," a free seminar for 
leaders in the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries. See seminar 
agenda and registration details below.
----

SCIENCE ROUNDUP

During the third quarter of 2000, research and news coverage in 
Science cast new light on topics from the geological structure of a 
jovian moon to the molecular structure of ribosomes.  Here's a 
brief look at some of the quarter's highlights.


Glimpses of an RNA World

Biochemists have long speculated that life may have begun in an 
"RNA world," in which single-stranded ribonucleic acid (rather 
than double-stranded DNA) handled both the carrying of genetic 
information and the biochemical heavy lifting of protein synthesis.  
Three landmark studies in the 11.8.2000 issue of Science offered 
stunning new evidence for that view.  Ban et al. 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5481/905) used 
x-ray crystallography to deduce the atomic structure, at a 2.4-
angstrom resolution, of the large subunit of the ribosome, the cell's 
basic protein-building factory.  Drawing on those data, Nissen et 
al. (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5481/920) 
established that it is the subunit's two RNA molecules, and not the 
surrounding structural proteins, that actually catalyze peptide-bond 
formation and, thus, protein synthesis in the ribosome, in marked 
contrast to the traditional view in which the RNA is the structural 
element and the proteins act as the catalysts.  And Muth et al. 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5481/947) 
showed that the key to the reaction lies in a single nucleotide base 
within the RNA that's present at that position in all known life -- a 
clear suggestion of a primordial RNA world.  A Perspective by T. 
R. Cech 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5481/878) 
placed these papers in the larger context of structural and 
evolutionary biology.


Teasing out Europa's Secrets

Jupiter's enigmatic, icy moon Europa is gradually yielding up its 
secrets, as planetary scientists interpret new data from the Galileo 
spacecraft.  One long-standing puzzle -- why images from the 
jovian moon have shown abundant evidence for large-magnitude 
tectonic extension with little sign of compensating compression 
elsewhere on the surface -- moved toward resolution with work 
published in the 11.8.2000 issue of Science 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5481/941).  
Applying a low-pass filter to digital images from Galileo, Prockter 
and Pappalardo found previously unrecognized long-wavelength 
undulations that could be due to compressional folds.  Two weeks 
later, Kivelson et al. 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5483/1340), in 
the 25.8.2000 issue, used Galileo's magnetometer data to bolster 
the case for a liquid ocean several kilometers beneath the Europan 
ice.  Changes in the planet's induced magnetic field, they found, 
were consistent with the signal expected from a subsurface 
spherical shell of conductive, salty water compositionally similar 
to Earth's oceans.  A Perspective by D. Stevenson 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5483/1305) 
discussed the new data and other lines of evidence favoring a 
subsurface Europan sea.


The Roots of Aggression
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5479/569

The tragic spring 1999 murders at Columbine High School 
highlighted one of science's more emotionally charged questions:  
Does interpersonal violence among humankind spring from deep 
biological roots -- from "normal" aggression gone awry -- or is it 
the product of an increasingly diseased and fragmented society?  A 
special issue of Science (28.7.2000) offered a report from the front 
lines of this scientific battleground, with features on how violence 
researchers continue to explore the relationship between brain 
chemistry and aggression, links between infant behaviors and 
subsequent violence, and the meaning of recent declines in violent-
crime rates. 


The Roots of Intelligence

Some people just seem "generally" smart, performing well in a 
variety of very different intellectual tasks.  That observation gave 
rise in the early 1900s to the concept of a measurable "general 
intelligence."  But does high general intelligence (high g, in the 
argot of the cognitive sciences) spring from the recruitment of 
different brain regions in charge of multiple information-
processing functions, as is commonly believed, or from the activity 
of a localized brain region controlling of the kinds of tasks featured 
in intelligence tests?  A study published in the 21.7.2000 issue 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5478/457), 
suggested that, surprisingly, the latter may be the case.  Using 
positron emission tomography (PET), Duncan et al. showed that, in 
a variety of tests that contrasted so-called high-g and low-g tasks, 
particular zones of the lateral frontal cortex that were not recruited 
for low-g tasks were uniformly active in high-g tasks.  The results 
imply that performance on intelligence tests may have a specific 
neural basis in the frontal system.  [In a Perspective in the same 
issue 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5478/399), 
however, R. J. Sternberg took a very different view of this 
controversial interpretation.]


Noises from the Deep

Janik (25.8.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5483/1355) 
looked at a manifestation of another form of intelligence:  the 
submarine whistling of the wild bottlenose dolphin, Tursiops 
truncatus.  He found evidence of learned whistle matching in the 
wild, over distances of half a kilometer -- analogous to the 
matching or labeling step hypothesized to have been a key way 
station in the evolution of human language.  Supplementing the 
paper was a lively Perspective by P. L. Tyack 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5483/1310) 
and unique audio files posted on Science Online 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/1050732.shl).

Another group of submarine noisemakers, snapping shrimp -- 
whose loud crackling can interfere with submarine 
communications and underwater acoustic studies -- formed the 
subject of a report in the 22.9.2000 issue.  Drawing on high-speed 
photography, hydrophone measurements, and theoretical modeling 
of bubble dynamics, Versluis et al. 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5487/2114) 
established that the shrimp's noise comes not from actual snapping 
shut of its claw, but from the collapse cavitation bubbles created by 
the claw's rapid closure.  Some fascinating video and audio files 
on Science Online 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/1052273.shl) rounded out 
the presentation.


Xena, Clone Princess

Amid the rush to clone various types of mammals in the wake of 
the celebrated 1997 unveiling of Dolly the sheep, the cloning of 
pigs has represented a particular opportunity -- and challenge.  
Because of their close physiological ties with humans, cloned pigs 
could constitute an excellent source of organs for transplantation.  
But the details of porcine reproductive biology have made 
successful cloning of pigs a thorny proposition.  The 18.8.2000 
issue of Science offered the first full scientific report of pig 
cloning, in a study by Onishi et al. 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5482/1188).  As 
a related news story 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5482/1118) 
explains, the researchers accomplished the feat by microinjecting 
skin fibroblast nuclei from a black breed of pig into enucleated egg 
cells, stimulating development with electrical pulses, and 
transferring the growing cells into surrogate mothers.  The result 
was Xena -- a black piglet, born to a white sow.  A Perspective by 
R. S. Prather in the 15.9.2000 issue 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5486/1886) 
discussed this and other cloning efforts, and new concerns that 
have been raised about the safety of pig-to-human 
xenotransplantation.


A Milestone in Laser Technology
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5479/599

Scientists and engineers have long sought the "holy grail" of a 
solid state laser made of organic materials.  Such a device would 
have clear manufacturing-cost advantages over ceramic materials, 
such as gallium arsenide, currently used to make solid state lasers, 
and could also offer a much broader color palette than is available 
from ceramic-based devices.  Yet the lattice defects commonly 
found in solid organics have made electrically pumped organic 
solid state lasers an elusive goal.  In the 28.7.2000 edition of 
Science, Schoen et al. reported a success in this long quest:  By 
manufacturing high-purity crystals of an organic molecule, fitting 
the crystals with field-effect transistors, and applying an electric 
potential difference, the group succeeded in coaxing yellow-green 
laser pulses out of a solid state organic material.  Mass production 
is still a long way off -- but application of the technique to other 
organic materials could ultimately lead to production lasers in a 
range of colors unimaginable using conventional ceramics.


More on Weird Nanomaterials

Elsewhere on the applied-physics front, Science continued its 
exploration of the unusual properties and potential uses of 
materials at very small scales.  On 28.7.2000, Kondo and 
Takayanagi 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5479/606) 
investigated the strangely noncrystalline, helical internal structure 
of extremely thin gold wires -- "a whole new nanoworld to be 
explored," according to the accompanying Perspective by Tosatti 
and Prestipino 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5479/561).  
Also continuing during the third quarter was Science's coverage of 
the peculiar world of carbon nanotubes.  Among the entries in that 
realm:  new research by Cummings and Zettl (28.7.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5479/602) on the 
low-friction properties of nested tubes that could ultimately serve 
as easy-sliding "bearings" in mechanical nanodevices, and a 
theoretical study by Rueckes et al. (7.7.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5476/94) 
showing how crossed-nanotube junctions might be used to fashion 
nonvolatile RAM in molecular computers.


Medical Breakthroughs

New medical discoveries, including potential breakthroughs on 
some of humanity's most vexatious afflictions, filled the pages of 
Science in the past quarter.  A small sample:

--Ho et al. (14.7.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5477/265) 
isolated a gene defect in mice that causes the cartilage cells of 
joints to pump insufficient amounts of inorganic pyrophosphate (a 
key ingredient in, of all things, tartar control toothpaste) into the 
joint cleft -- which, in turn, allows buildup of bony spurs that lead 
to symptoms very like those of human arthritis.  The study not only 
identified one possible genetic basis for a crippling human disease, 
but also suggested a potential treatment.

--Steidler et al. (25.8.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5483/1352) 
harnessed the power of the mouse model to offer a new drug 
delivery approach for patients with inflammatory bowel disease 
(IBD):  introducing the drug of choice, interleukin-10 (IL-10), 
using recombinant gut flora genetically engineered to churn out the 
substance.  The approach may allow treatment with much lower 
IL-10 dosages -- and, thus, far fewer side effects -- than the 
conventional systemic IL-10 application.

--Repa et al. (1.9.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5484/1524) 
identified a biological "master switch" in mice, the so-called 
retinoid X receptor, that helps the body get rid of excess 
cholesterol; their work suggests the potential for new drugs that 
could help reduce cholesterol by tweaking this master switch.

--On the cancer front, St. Croix et al. (18.8.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5482/1197) 
documented 79 potentially targetable gene-expression differences 
between the cells of normal blood vessels and those of vessels 
feeding malignant tumors.  And Schindler et al. (15.9.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5486/1938), 
using detailed protein crystallography, illuminated the mechanisms 
used by a promising new drug against chronic myelogenous 
leukemia -- providing a structural underpinning that could aid in 
design of similar drugs for other types of cancer.


Taking the Pulse of Climate Change . . .

Insights on climates past, present, and future flowed from a series 
of impressive articles published this quarter.  Comparing 
observations of Northern Hemisphere temperatures over the past 
millennium with climate model simulations, T. J. Crowley 
(14.7.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5477/270) found 
that natural forcing by solar irradiance and volcanism explained 
virtually all pre-industrial temperature variability -- but that post-
industrial temperature rises could be accounted for only by 
factoring in the effect of anthropogenic greenhouse gases.  The 
result strengthens the link between recent warming and human 
influences, according to a Perspective in the same issue by M. E. 
Mann 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5477/253).  
The 21.7.2000 issue featured findings of two groups -- described in 
a Perspective by D. Dahl-Jensen 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5478/404) -
- that used GPS and laser altimetry techniques to measure the rate 
of warming-induced ablation of the Greenland Ice Sheet in the past 
decade.

Looking back considerably further, Lea et al. (8.9.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5485/1719) 
applied the new isotopic technique of Mg/Ca paleothermometry to 
add precision to the sea surface temperature (SST) record for the 
past half million years -- and to better nail down the timing 
relationships between SST changes and the waxing and waning of 
continental ice sheets, a key constraint in global climate models.  
And, in the 15.9.2000 issue, N. J. Shackleton 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5486/1897) -- 
coauthor of a landmark study published in 23 years ago in Science 
that identified Earth's orbital dynamics as "the pacemaker of the 
Ice Ages" -- revisited that topic, in a study that compared the 
400,000-year climate record of an Antarctic ice core with the 
corresponding deep sea temperature history recorded by oxygen 
isotope ratios in the shells of microscopic marine animals.  His 
results provide new constraints on the earthbound mechanisms 
(principally variations in atmospheric carbon dioxide) that 
implement the orbital pacemaker's instructions.


. . . And Its Societal Impacts

Climate change, of course, has a social dimension as well, a 
dimension explored in Science during the third quarter of 2000.  In 
the 8.9.2000 issue, Rogers and Randolph 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5485/1763) 
used the predictions of the Hadley Centre Global Climate Model 
and current knowledge of disease ecology to project how global 
warming might affect the worldwide distribution of malaria.  Their 
surprising (and reassuring) conclusion, as noted in an 
accompanying Perspective by C. Dye and P. Reiter 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5485/1697)
:   Even under extreme warming scenarios, the modeled malaria 
distribution shows little significant gain.  Other features covering 
climate's social and policy implications included a Policy Forum 
by K. Broad and S. Agrawala (8.9.2000; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5485/1693) 
asserting that even the best climate forecasting is no panacea for 
famine in drought- and strife-stricken areas such as Ethiopia; a 
review by Easterling et al. (22.9.2000 issue; 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/289/5487/2068) on 
the impacts of climate and weather extremes, coupled with a 
Policy Forum 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5487/2053) 
on U.S. government reactions to such extremes; and, in the 
29.9.2000 issue, two views on the appropriate policy response to 
greenhouse warming and excess carbon emissions.


NEAR Hits the Mark

Since early February 2000, the instrument-packed Near-Earth 
Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR)-Shoemaker spacecraft has been 
patiently mapping 433 Eros, a 34-km-long asteroid, and beaming 
back gigabytes of data on the body's density, structure, and 
chemistry -- and the most detailed pictures ever taken of a celestial 
body other than Earth's moon.  Four papers in the 22.9.2000 issue 
provided images, gravity and elevation models, and compositional 
information for this elongate, pock-marked body.  In a related 
Perspective 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5487/2065)
, R. P. Binzel offered an engaging review of the past two centuries 
of asteroid studies, and the NEAR mission's place in that history.


Striking a Skeletal Balance
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5484/1497

In the U.S. alone, some 10 million persons suffer from 
osteoporosis, with another 18 million at risk for the disease owing 
to below-normal bone mass.  Developing therapeutic approaches to 
these disorders hinges on an understanding of the balance between 
formation of new bone material and destruction, or resorption, of 
old bone -- and why that balance shifts toward resorption as 
humans age.  A special issue published 1.9.2000 documented some 
of the recent advances in our understanding of bone growth and 
decay, with articles reviewing the state of research on osteoblasts 
(the cells that make new bone) and osteoclasts (the cells that 
destroy old bone), as well as an outline of the various existing and 
potential therapeutic approaches to bone disease.  A related news 
article looked at how researchers in a blossoming new field, tissue 
engineering, are applying their science toward bone building, using 
tools such as gene therapy, stem cells, and novel molecular 
"scaffolds" that support damaged bone during repair.


Science and Productivity

The power of the past decade's economic expansion has become 
almost proverbial.  Many have tied this unprecedented boom to the 
emergence of a "new economy," fueled by developments in 
computer science and information technology.  But agreement on 
technology's role in economic growth is far from universal.  In a 
News Focus on 25.8.2000 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5483/1274)
, Science investigated the policy debate among economists, 
scientists, and lobbyists over whether, and how much, science and 
technology have driven economic prosperity and productivity.  
Other interesting news features during the quarter included a report 
on how "high-tech detectives" are pressing advances in 
information processing, molecular biology, and gene expression 
analysis into service in the quotidian task of nabbing criminals 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5481/850); 
the challenges implicit in trying to promote gender equality in the 
scientific workplace 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5478/378); 
and "soft money's hard realities" -- the financial and professional 
insecurity, and occasional advantages, that are a fact of life in the 
non-tenure-track world 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5487/2024)
.


Pathways of Discovery

Science's Pathways of Discovery series -- monthly explorations of 
the past and future of scientific disciplines -- continued during the 
third quarter.  On 14.7.2000, R. Lucky provided a whirlwind tour 
of scientific communications, from the age of cuneiform to the 
Web and beyond 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5477/259).  
The 11.8.2000 issue featured an elegant review by D. Kleppner 
and R. Jackiw on the accomplishments of one hundred years of 
quantum physics 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5481/893).  
And P. Nurse sketched out the extraordinary story of cell biology, 
from Hooke's first drawings of cork sections to cutting-edge 
advances in determining cell cycle checkpoints, in the 8.9.2000 
Pathways article 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5485/1711)
.


The Promise of Bioinformatics

Gordon Moore's well-known prediction about computer chips -- 
that their power would double every eighteen months -- seems 
equally true of the burgeoning field of bioinformatics.  That kind 
of growth is turning bioinformatics into one of the big career 
opportunities open to young scientists.  Science Online's node for 
students, postdocs, and other young researchers, Science's Next 
Wave, offered an in-depth look at the current state of jobs, 
education, and funding for bioinformaticians 
(http://nextwave.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2000/08/23/1), 
including feature articles, a list of bioinformatics resources, and an 
online chat with Stanford University's David Bottstein.

As bioinformatics continues to heat up, the discipline's techniques 
and information-processing engines are finding a place in areas of 
the life sciences well beyond molecular biology.  Science's 
29.9.2000 special issue, for example, highlighted the growing new 
field of "biodiversity informatics," characterized by databases that 
seek nothing less than to catalog the phylogeny, nomenclature, and 
geographic distribution of all life on earth 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/289/5488/2305)
.  Supplementing the special issue was a Science Online guide to 
some of the better biodiversity informatics Websites 
(http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/biodiversity2000.shl).


----
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Munich D, Thu Oct 19

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 13:03:36 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: G4-T5 UV Tubes for a UV Cathode Electrolysis Cell
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:01:29 -0700
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It might be interesting to wrap one of the G4-T5 tubes (or equivalent)
with Nickel or Palladium Gauze or mesh (and use it as the cathode)
to see if it improves the OU/CF yield in an electrolysis cell.

If fully immersed in the electrolyte there shouldn't be any harmful 
UV (185 nm, ~ 6.7 ev, or 254 nm, ~ 4.88ev) or ozone getting out of the cell.

 http://dustbin.virtualave.net/circuits/epromgear.html

Nice homespun web site on how to procure and power one of the UV Tubes.

The quartz bulb is extremely rugged against thermal shock.

Regards,   Frederick



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 17:53:25 2000
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Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I haven't been following this thread very much, and I haven't read Arp's
book. However, I'll still offer a few comments.

The Universe is huge and, despite the very large distance between galaxies,
with all the galaxies out there it is not such a rare event that light from
a distant galaxy passes close enough to another galaxy on its way in our
direction that the light is bent (refracted) by the nearer galaxy's
gravity. Therefore, the distant galaxy's image as seen by us is distorted.
You must keep in mind that the lensing galaxy is not going to make a nice
"optics primer" image of the distant one. The mass distribution is not
correct for that. Also, the lensing galaxy is, statistically, randomly
oriented with respect to us, so the image is further distorted, and a wide
range of image distortions is produced. The usual image consists of
streaks, rings, arcs and much more. Compare this situation to a Rorschach
test and one might predict that the human mind can find many interesting
familiar patterns in the refracted light patterns surrounding the
near-galaxy image. However, scientists ask questions, measure, ask
questions, reject hypotheses, measure, etc., until things make some sense. 

We cannot measure such distances directly. The red shift of spectral line
sequences is used as an approximate measurement tool, but that is what is
being debated here. Still, the red shift method continues to be better
understood and better calibrated as additional pieces of evidence
accumulate.

Some galaxies emit a pair of jets, one from each pole. Gravitational
lensing is distinguished from jets in several ways. First, jets tend to
have a clearer and more repeatable morphology. They all look like jets, at
least after accounting for the fact that some jets point toward us, some
point perpendicularly with respect to us, and most point at some
intermediate angle. Gravitational images are much more varied. Also, since
the distant galaxy is often far enough to one side of the line drawn
between us and through the the near galaxy, it can be seen as a distorted
distant galaxy. Therefore, after observing many instances of gravitational
imaging that cover a wide range of geometries, one can relate the more
extreme examples of wierd refracted light patterns to the endpoint of a
succession of refracting geometries. Next, jets have about the same red
shift as their parent galaxy. If the jet has a velocity component toward or
away from us, i.e. a radial velocity component with respect to us, then the
jet spectral shifts differ from the parent galaxy and from one another (in
the pair) according to the Doppler shift of their (radial) velocities
relative to the parent. Gravitationally refracted light shows no such
effect; the spectral shifts are the same for all of the components of the
image. Further, jets have distinct spectra with lots of x-ray emission.
Refracted galactic light looks like distant galaxy light. Therefore, there
are ways that hypotheses can be tested, be they Arp's or others'. 

Astronomers can't do controlled experiments, but they make observations,
make hypotheses, make more observations, reject lots of hypotheses, and in
the end might have one hypothesis that is consistent with the available
data...like other scientists.


> Did Scott write "that ALL the galaxies, regardless of
> direction, are red shifted relative to us?"  

Some of the local group might be approaching us. Galaxies are usually found
in groups of 10 to 100, or local groups. Galaxies in a local group move
under the influence of each others' gravity. Many local groups show
evidence of galactic collisions. The cosmological red shift refers to the
average motion of distant galaxies (averaging over the local velocities
within the local groups). The average receeding velocities corresponding to
the red shifts we associate with large distances are much larger than the
local group internal motion velocities, so one is only able to associate
redshift with distance at very large distances form us. The red
shift-distance relationship breaks down at "short" distances corresponding
to our neighboring galaxies.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 22:38:49 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Cause ....Re: Electromagnetism   What is the cause??
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	Dear Folks,

	If you have a move charge ... it is also found there is a magnetic
field.

	There is nor proof one is the cause of the other... 

	If you have a withe light .... does this cause an electric light
switch to be turned?




On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Adam Cox wrote:

> >From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Re: Electromagnetism
> >Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:23:29 -0700
> >
> >
> >
> >Adam Cox wrote:
> > >
> > > I know the accepted answer about how a moving electrical charge creates 
> >a
> > > magnetic field...  can anybody tell me why?
> > >
> >
> >Of course! Larson's Reciprocal System is clear about it.  It's not the
> >charge
> >anyway, it's the electron, whether or not it's charged.  The magnetic
> >field
> >is the two dimensional residue of three dimensional gravity when one
> >of its three dimensions is partially neutralized by the one dimensional
> >motion
> >of the electron. See http://www.interpres.cz/sr/ce/dimmot.htm
> >
> >Hoyt Stearns
> >Phoenix
> >--
> >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263
> ><< hoyt-stearns.vcf >>
> 
> Very interesting...
> 
> Thanx
> Merlyn
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Sep 30 22:46:19 2000
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From: Gary Hanes <garyhanes ragingbull.com>
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Subject: Seeing Red
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For those of us who need the short version of the book. Here is a Book Review by Tom Van Flandern

http://metaresearch.org/publications/books/SeeingRed-Arp.asp



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Schaffer [mailto:schaffermj yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 5:52 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Seeing Red


I haven't been following this thread very much, and I haven't read Arp's
book. However, I'll still offer a few comments.

....



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