From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 00:10:45 2000
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Subject: Fw: Get with it!
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sam Haines <ironeagle ainop.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:08 PM
Subject: Get with it!


Hey Fred,

Your behind on your space travel :>)

http://www.magneticenergy.com/finalspa.htm

Check this one out.
  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 02:43:30 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 1 Oct 2000 01:07:57 -0700:

>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Sam Haines <ironeagle ainop.com>
>To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:08 PM
>Subject: Get with it!
>
>
>Hey Fred,
>
>Your behind on your space travel :>)
>
>http://www.magneticenergy.com/finalspa.htm
>
>Check this one out.
>  
>
A single quote ". These wires are made of a ratio of 7.8% magnesium to 2.5%
nickel. "
Apparently the aliens can't count to 100.



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 06:07:46 2000
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Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 08:05:36 -0700
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 10:45 PM 9/30/2000 -0700, Gary Hanes wrote:

>For those of us who need the short version of the book. Here is a Book
Review by Tom Van Flandern
>
>http://metaresearch.org/publications/books/SeeingRed-Arp.asp

This is an excellent review of Arp's book.  It conveys well the breadth and
depth of Arp's investigation into this subject.

Regarding the mechanism behind the observation that "newer" matter is
redshifted, I am intrigued by the rough correlation between x and gamma ray
intensity and red shift that Arp notes.  It seems that high redshift matter
is also highly energetic matter, emitting photons all the way up into the
gamma ray energy ranges.

It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which extremely energetic
matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing jumps out at me though....anybody see
anything here?


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 06:51:21 2000
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Jack Smith wrote:

Did Scott write "that ALL the galaxies, regardless of
direction, are red shifted relative to us?"

Horace Heffner wrote:

There are stars which are blue shifted with respect to us,
but as far as I know, distant galaxies are all red shifted.
I don't know if there are a few nearby galaxies exhibiting
net blue shift.

Michael J. Schaffer wrote:

Some of the local group might be approaching us. Galaxies
are usually found in groups of 10 to 100, or local
groups ...

Jack Smith wrote:

The gross redshift we observe for any object may be the
result of a variety of processes ...

Horace Heffner wrote:

Yes.  I think, but am uncertain, that one of the initial
means of confirming Hubble's hypothesis, beyond the use
of cephid variables, which led to his conclusion regarding
red shift, was to observe the spreading of spectral lines
in nearby galaxies, which rotate.

Hi All,

Here are some selections from a book review of Halton
Arp's "Seeing Red" by Tom Van Flandern (full test can be
found) at:

http://metaresearch.org/publications/books/SeeingRed-Arp.asp

... it's not difficult to look at the picture of the
x-ray filaments in Markarian 205, featured also on the
book cover, and to grasp the deep implications of that
image. For if a low-redshift Seyfert galaxy is physically
connected to and interacting with two high-redshift
quasars, one on either side, then redshift can be neither
a distance nor a velocity indicator ...

The earliest hints of problems with redshift came in 1911
with the discovery that the bright, blue stars in our own
Milky Way galaxy have systematically higher redshifts than
the rest of the stars by about 10 km/s. Later observations
showed that the O-stars in clusters within our galaxy are
redshifted with respect to the B-stars by another 10 km/s
or so -- something called the "K-effect" and still disputed
because it has no accepted theoretical explanation.

However, doubts about the validity of the data were
undercut and the K-effect confirmed by more recent measures
of the redshifts of supergiant stars in the two Magellanic
Clouds, nearby companion galaxies of the Milky Way. These
too are redshifted by about 30 km/s with respect to other
stars in those small galaxies. Yet no one suspects that
all supergiant stars in our galaxy or in our immediate
neighbors are fleeing away symmetrically from our own
location ...

Companion galaxies in general seem to have net redshifts
that exceed that of their parents. All eleven companion
galaxies in the Local Group have redshifts with respect
to their parent, the Andromeda galaxy in the center of
the group. Likewise, all eleven companion galaxies of the
neighboring M81 group have redshifts relative to M81. Yet,
if these companions were orbiting their parent galaxy,
roughly 50% of them ought to have been blue-shifted.

... Moreover, the closest and therefore most recent
[quasar] ejections have the highest relative redshifts,
and the lowest intrinsic luminosities. This leads Arp
to suggest that the redshift of matter is an inverse
function of the age of that matter. As much as one wishes
to resist this conclusion, Arp shows case after case that
conforms to it, many found well after this hypothesis
was in print, each with odds of thousands to one against
chance. Moreover, these apparently ejected quasars with
redshifts ordered inversely with distance from their
parent also tend to line up along the minor axis of the
parent galaxy.

... The most conspicuous quasar in the sky is 3C273,
one member of a pair of quasars almost exactly aligned
across the brightest galaxy in the Virgo cluster center. A
peculiar hydrogen cloud known to be in the Virgo cluster
near the coordinates of 3C273 has a long, narrow shape
pointing back toward the quasar, which itself has a jet
pointing toward the hydrogen cloud. An x-ray radiation
map (see Figure 5-16) also shows connections between the
cluster to the quasar. Yet the quasar is supposed to be
54 times farther away than the cluster, according to its
redshift ...

Because redshift is not a good distance indicator, Arp
points out that apparent brightness often is. Quasars near
M49 appear relatively random on a sky map until just the
brighter ones in a half-magnitude range are plotted. Then
magically, there appears a line of quasars emerging from
M49 with redshifts decreasing with distance, just as the
observation-driven model predicts.

Whenever secondary distance indicators are available,
they support this picture. In some cases, Faraday rotation
caused by traversing a magnetized plasma can be measured
for quasars. So the amount of such rotation ought to be a
distance indicator. But it was then discovered that quasars
with redshifts of about 2 had only 1/3 as much Faraday
rotation as quasars with redshifts of about 1, when they
ought to have had twice as much rotation. By contrast, this
is in accord with Arp's model because the redshift z = 2
quasars are intrinsically fainter, and therefore generally
seen only at closer distances, than those with z = 1.

Arp concludes that quasars are initially faint,
point-like objects of high redshift that transform
into lower-redshift, compact objects surrounded by
a fuzz as they evolve. These develop into small,
high-surface-brightness galaxies with more material
around them.  Ultimately these mature into normal,
quiescent galaxies.

In this new view of relationships among astrophysical
objects, Seyfert galaxies and their close cousins, BL Lac
objects, are short-lived evolutionary stages associated
with quasar ejection from active galaxy nuclei. In effect,
Seyferts are quasar factories. Strong quasar number-counts
are associated with a nearly complete sample of bright
Seyferts, as compared with non-Seyfert control fields.

...  an apparent magnitude vs. redshift (Hubble) diagram
shows that Seyfert galaxies have too much redshift at
fainter magnitudes and do not follow the same relationship
as normal galaxies. Indeed, the Hubble diagram for Seyferts
trends toward that for quasars, which likewise do not
show a normal Hubble relationship between brightness
and redshift.

 ... One might well wonder what galaxy
clusters have so say about this, since these are clearly
physically associated groupings of galaxies. The supporting
evidence they provide is truly extensive. Classically,
whole galaxy clusters obey a Hubble diagram relation
between redshift and brightness with a dispersion of just
a few tenths of a magnitude. But 14 clusters north of Cen
A have a much larger dispersion with a maximum range of 4
magnitudes. Such clusters have no relationship of the type
claimed for ordinary galaxies, and call into question that
the classical Hubble relationship can have the meaning
usually attributed to it -- that redshift indicates
distance -- for anything. We may simply have been fooled
by both luminosity and redshift being functions of mass,
which would lead to an apparent Hubble relationship despite
no true distance dependence.

...  So the young-appearing objects with the highest
redshifts are aligned on either side of eruptive objects,
which implies the ejection of protogalaxies and the
association of redshift with youth. Increasing distance
from parent leads to brighter, lower redshift objects, so
this is the direction of evolution with age. At redshifts
of about 0.3 and distances of about 400 kpc from the
parent, quasars become very bright at optical wavelengths
and in x-rays, and evolve into BL Lac-type objects -- a
short-lived stage because there are few of them. Finally,
these evolve into clusters of galaxies, which are seen
to appear at comparable distances to the BL Lac objects,
implying that clusters may originate from the breakup of
BL Lac objects.

... G2237+0305 was essentially a high-redshift quasar in
the nucleus of a low-redshift galaxy. Lensing was the only
way out for cosmologists. The four quasar images were all
within one arc second of the galaxy nucleus. But Hoyle
computed the probability of such a lensing event as two
in a million.

The last main observational area deals with the
quantization of redshifts. In essence, redshifts do
not take on all values with equal ease, as they must if
they are caused mainly by the velocities of the observed
objects. For example, redshifts near 0.061, 0.3, 0.6,
0.91, 1.41, 1.96, etc. occur more frequently than chance
permits. Smaller redshifts too occur at preferred periodic
intervals, as Tifft has shown in a study confirmed in an
independent sample by Guthrie and Napier.

... BL Lac objects show the same quantization, but to
a less pronounced degree, as befits their relationship
to quasars.

... Redshift, then, indicates youth. And the slope of
the Hubble diagram comes directly from our own galaxy's
age. Since luminosity evolves with mass squared, the
apparent brightness-redshift relationship is coincidental,
and not an indicator of distance.

...  As with any work of such length and depth, a few
errors turned up along with a few points that are of
dubious merit. None of us can be experts in everything,
and we are always pushing the limits of our knowledge and
training. Worth a comment are these points:

* Arp's arguments against tired light models (p. 97) make
a common invalid assumption that quantum particles must be
responsible for the energy loss. But there is good
reason to suspect that quantum particles are by no means
fundamental.

* Arp's proposal (p. 219) that even planetary and satellite masses
may be quantized uses an invalid statistical argument
when bridging large ranges of mass. But he may well be
right for small mass differences. Origin in twin pairs by
fission usually creates masses in the approximate ratio of
5:4, which may partly explain Arp's planet statistics. It
might also explain his magical 1.23 redshift quantization
ratio if a similar fission process is responsible for
the twin ejections in galaxies.

* On p. 234, Arp cites the surface
brightness test, which must vary
as (1+z)4 in the Big Bang. He applies that to
his own model on the assumption that observations
support it. However, the observed dependence goes as
(1+z)2. Evolution of galaxies is said to be responsible
for the difference in the Big Bang, but that argument
would not apply to Arp's model.

* On p. 237, Arp incorrectly states that the cosmic microwave
radiation must come from a thin shell, saying this has
not been explained. But that radiation is supposed to have
flooded the universe shortly after the Big Bang, and been
cooling ever since.  So every point in the universe is
today receiving cooled radiation, and there is no shell
anywhere. Arp correctly goes on to provide more probable
explanations for the radiation than a fireball residue.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 10:37:26 2000
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Isn't Dick Cheney from Wyoming?     :-) Search keywords: "Wyoming Coal Deposits"

 http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/794323/0000794323-97-000002.txt

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 10:56:10 2000
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Hard Oil?.   

 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalhome.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 12:43:23 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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sorry, I must have a wire crossed somewhere... when I wrote monopole what I 
meant was homopolar, not quite the same thing at all... and this is not an 
electrostatic device, it is based on a Faraday Disk (see Bill's page at 
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/n-mach.html, thanx Bill)

when I finish the prototype I will be able to tell you if it actually works 
as I think it will.

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 13:34:57 2000
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This article confirms that Dr. Li has returned to China but NASA is
proceeding with her (et. al.) work:

http://space.com/businesstechnology/technology/anti_grav_000928.html

Terry
(watching for Chinese flying saucers)

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Scott Little wrote:

It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which
extremely energetic matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing
jumps out at me though....anybody see anything here?

Hi Scott,

I just found the following quote, but I have not yet been able
to get a url:

''... "Can you get redshift from plasma in the lab?"  Of course, 
Tony [Peratt} said "Yes."  He even showed us the reference on his
website with (almost identical) redshift diagrams caused by velocity
(doppler) on the left and electrical charge (plasma) on the right. ''

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 14:26:06 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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***{Hi Horace. I am sorry for the delay in responding to your very
interesting criticisms. Unfortunately, as I mentioned the other day, I am
covered up by work right now, and have very little time to play on the
internet. That will result in a somewhat slower pace than normal until I
get more free time, for which I apologize. --MJ}***

Horace Heffner wrote:

>A problem with MJ's corpuscular theory is that there is nothing to
>prevent exchange of small units of microcharges (or even neutral corpuscles
>if they exist) between electrons and electrons, or electrons and protons,
>or protons and protons.  We would thus see, in a plasma, blurred spectral
>lines as collisions between these particles provide the opportunity for the
>(semi-permanent) exchange of microcharges.

***{No. The amount of mass that needs to be exchanged between colliding
particles in order to account for changes in their kinetic energies is,
under ordinary circumstances, utterly trivial. Thus if mass is equivalent
to the sum of the absolute values of the contained microcharges [i.e., if m
= k…(|q1| + |q2| + |q3| + ... + |qn|)], the resulting proportionate shift
in charge would also be trivial. Suppose, for example, that an electron of
mass .00054854807 amu is moving at 300 m/sec and strikes a stationary
electron straight on, so that the first electron comes to a complete stop,
and the second one goes off with a velocity of 300 m/sec. In that case, the
energy which is exchanged, K, is such that K = (1/2)mV^2 =
(.5)[(.00054854807)(1.657x10^-27)][(300)^2] = 4.09x10^-26 joules. Since E =
mc^2, the mass equivalent of the exchanged energy is  E/c^2 =
(4.09x10^-26)/[(3x10^8)^2] = 4.54x10^-43 kg, which is
(4.54x10^-43)/(1.657x10^-27) = 2.74x10^-16 amu. Thus if the charge of the
electron changes in proportion to the change in its mass, that change will
be [(2.74x10^-16)/(.00054854807)](1.0)(100) = .00000000005 %, which is far,
far beyond the capabilities of our instruments to detect. --MJ}***

>
>Another problem with this idea is that either some of MJ's "ultramundane
>corpuscles" are charged or not.

***{By "charged" you apparently mean that they conform to the principle
that likes repel and unlikes attract. In that sense, as I conceive them at
present, they are not charged. (By the way: in that sense, what I am
referring to as "microcharges" are not charged, either. Instead, the charge
possessed by a particle is proportional to the number of microcharges that
it contains, but the microcharges themselves behave more like reactants
than like charges. I described this process in considerable detail many
months ago, in connection with a discussion of flux lines and magnetic
fields, and will have more to say about it later, if required.) --MJ}***

If they are charged, then unlike
>corpuscles will on average be diverted to and absorbed by oppositely
>charged particles.

***{Even if we assume they are charged, it is unclear whether this is true
or not. Remember: these particles, if they exist, have to be moving at many
millions of times the speed of light. Thus whether they would be
significantly diverted from straight paths by the emanations from charged
particles would depend upon their masses, which is a matter that would have
to be decided by experiment. Granted, their masses have to be vanishingly
small to account for the fact that their impacts do not set the Earth
ablaze, but precisely how small is unclear. --MJ}***

This would either result in a mass annihilation,
>producing detectable radiation, plus a mass DECREASE, or if such
>annihilation can not occur, would result in a variable mass/charge ratio,
>which would have been detected.

***{No. If m = k…(|q1| + |q2| + |q3| + ... + |qn|), as I am assuming, then
the mass/charge ratio is constant, despite the fact that both mass and
charge increase as a matter ages. Suppose, for example, that a lightweight
galaxy within which particles have half the mass and half the charge of
corresponding particles in the Milky Way needs to age for 5 billion years
in order for its particles to become as massive as those in the Milky Way.
In that case, every electron, positron, proton, neutron, meson, etc.,
within that galaxy takes 5 billion years to double in mass and charge, and
the day-to-day change--or even the change over a human lifetime--will be
far too small for us to detect. To be specific, if an electron goes from a
mass of .000275 amu to a mass of .000548 amu over a period of 5 billion
years, the change would be at a rate of .000275/(365.25)(5x10^9) =
1.5x10^-16 amu per day. Thus if the charge of the electron changes in
proportion to the change in its mass, that change will be
[(1.5x10^-16)/(.000275)](1.0)(100) = .0000000000546 % per day, and the best
instruments on the planet are *nowhere near* being able to detect that.
--MJ}***

In the case of the existence of and
>absorbtion of non-charged ultramundane corpuscles, the mass/charge ratio
>must change as they are absorbed.  This would be seen in a variety of
>experiments where results clearly show quantized units and fixed
>mass/charge ratios.  Therefore such ultramundane corpuscles can not be
>absorbed long term, and thus can not account for the red shift.

***{You are guilty of failure to quantify, Horace. :-) --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 14:49:36 2000
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Terry -

I know it's probably just the reporter who did this, but the chance 
of it being a fiar representation after all bothers me a bit:

>Critics say the notion of a "gravity shield" violates Einstein's 
>fundamental laws of physics.

I guess the theories, which Einstein himself had expressed were not 
complete, got a big promotion somewhere along the way.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  1 15:44:03 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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>Scott Little wrote:
>
>It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which
>extremely energetic matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing
>jumps out at me though....anybody see anything here?
>
>Hi Scott,
>
>I just found the following quote, but I have not yet been able
>to get a url

*{Here are some URL's that mention Tony Peratt:

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/prat-bng.htm
http://www.sandia.gov/pulspowr/icops99/Awardsandnom.html
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/silver/thornhll.htm

The first URL--which is worth a detailed read, by the way--indicates that
Tony Peratt is a plasma physicist and an associate of Eric Lerner (author
of *The Big Bang Never Happened*). The second indicates that he works at
the Los Alamos National Laboratory, but is temporarily on assignment at the
Department of Energy. The third suggests that he is co-developer, along
with Alfvén, of the plasma cosmological model.

His website, however, I cannot find.

--Mitchell Jones}***

:
>
>''... "Can you get redshift from plasma in the lab?"  Of course,
>Tony [Peratt} said "Yes."  He even showed us the reference on his
>website with (almost identical) redshift diagrams caused by velocity
>(doppler) on the left and electrical charge (plasma) on the right. ''
>
>Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 11:35:21 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Ning Li Returned to China
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>This article confirms that Dr. Li has returned to China but NASA is
>proceeding with her (et. al.) work:

That is a shame. I doubt that she will have a good opportunity or enough 
funding back in China to do this experiment right.

According to the article, some people involved with this experiment feel 
that NASA botched the execution, assigning people who did not know what 
they are doing. If that is true, it is a shame, and it reminds me a little 
of the NHE project. On one hand, I applaud NASA for having the guts to try 
this experiment at all, on the other hand, if they botched it, I wish they 
had never tried it, since they will give the field a bad name. (For all I 
know, it deserves a bad name, but I hate to see people draw conclusions 
after only a few experiments.)

In the second attempt, NASA is farming out the project to a company that 
specializes in HTSC. That may be the wisest approach.

The article says that Li focused the experiment on proving her theory, 
rather than achieving a reliable, high sigma replication. Many scientists 
do that, and I wish they wouldn't. I suspect the Italian researchers may 
have gone off on a similar tangent with electromigration loading, and they 
are trying to prove a theory rather than prove to other scientists outside 
the field that their effect is real. Some CF scientists suspect it is not 
real. It is difficult for me to judge, but they are working with very tiny 
devices and heat fluxes close to the lower limits of detection, so I have 
my doubts. I do not understand why they make the net output of the devices 
so small. The devices are small -- almost microscopic, in some cases -- but 
they are manufactured with a lithographic process similar to the 
semiconductor fabrication techniques. That being the case, I do not 
understand why these researchers do not simply fabricate 1000 of the tiny 
devices on one substrate, or 10,000, so that the total heat flux is large 
enough to measure easily.

Perhaps there is a reason they cannot reproduce many devices on one 
macroscopic substrate, but I have not heard it. I will ask some of them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 12:34:14 2000
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Subject: Note to Celani about electromigration experiments
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Here is a note about these thin film gadgets that I have been meaning to 
write for weeks. I hope Francesco responds, and I hope I have not 
misunderstood the nature of the devices, or the scale. Perhaps they are 
already as big as they can be made. When I saw the viewgraphs during 
ICCF-8, this was the first thing that occurred to me.

U. Mastromatteo (ICCF-8, paper #42) is also making tiny devices with 
silicon chip lithography techniques.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear Francesco,

I have been wondering about electromigration experiments described by De 
Ninno at ICCF-8. My question may apply to your experiments as well.

These thin film devices are very small, and input and output power is tiny, 
which makes accurate calorimetry difficult. If I understand correctly, the 
devices she described were made by lithographic techniques similar to those 
used to manufacture computer chips.

It occurred to me that since they are using similar techniques, they might 
as well do what the computer chip makers do: repeat the pattern and put 
many devices on the same substrate. I am not sure of the dimensions of the 
coiled thin film wire, or how many copies you could fit on one substrate, 
but if they could fit 100, and most of the copies produced heat, the output 
signal would be 100 times large and much more convincing. It would not cost 
more money or take more time to make a hundred copies as one. The component 
dimensions are huge compared to computer chips, so you would have no 
difficulty focusing the mask over a large area.

When Morrison asked De Ninno about the calorimetry, she said it is 
difficult but it can be done. Perhaps that is so, but why not make the 
calorimetry easy and more convincing, for at least one set of experiments?

- Jed 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 15:14:23 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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 Scott Little wrote:
> 
> It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which
> extremely energetic matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing
> jumps out at me though....anybody see anything here?
> 
Perhaps the effect is due to effective increased 
ZPE (high EM emission density)
in the regions with "extremely energetic matter".
I am uncertain if this would be expected to change bound
electron equilibrium energies in the proper direction
or in any significant way, but it does seem that some
change would be a reasonable expectation based on Hal's
theories.
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 17:04:18 2000
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Subject: conservation of energy GRAVITY MODIFICATION
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	I used the term Gravity Modification because  did not know if I
was "anti" or "shielding" any thing and made a public statement to this
effect several times. Several people, including NASA,  started using it
and then later tried to say something different.   
	The idea of Eugene Podkletnov's device being counter to
conservation of energy stems from several sources... but boils down to a
few:

	1]	journalists and others not named out of professional
courtesy DID NOT READ THE PAPERS written by Eguene and Giovanni
Modanese...  

	_______________________

	NOTE:	If you want to get on track do the following:


		a] go to www.gravity.org
		b] PRINT ALL THE PAPERS by one or a combination of Eugene
Podkletnov and Giovanni Modanese ... ALL of THEM ... and READ ...

		c]	this is for general get up to speed
			and then.....
		d]	Use a marker or pencil and mark ALL OF THE MATH

....... print a SECOND set and do not print any of the math... just print
the experimental set up and description.   The complete description of the
experiment is NOT in one paper.... it is distributed throughout several
paperss by these two authors.  The key papers are the 1992 and 1995 and
all the co authored papers.

-----------_______________________________


	2]	NOW:  several people including journalists said or
repeated the idea of putting a wheel in the GM effect and thereby making
and "up side down" perpetual motion water wheel idea... but using
gravity...
		They did not pay attention to two major issues:

	XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 the area termed "the zone of exclusion" at the edge of the GM effect.... 
This area is a sort of "hill" ... you have to push to get into the area of
GM...  ... so you lose any 'gain' you might have had.

			AND

	YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


	You have to spend a BUNCH of power to get an effect and it appears
you spend more as you ask the effect to 'lift' more.

---------

	Bur, you see, it sounds MUCH MUCH cooler to claim perpetual
motion....

	and.... naturally ...  few of the whole really want to READ all
those dry papers... and it sells more magazines and news papers and sounds
cool to talk about the perpetual motion and since EVERYTHING you read and
heat in media is accurate... well, then the idea must be wrong because the
facts put down in print say so.... and this is... of course... based on
rigorous journalistic science.... so throw the investigators' ideas out
the door.... it does not matter what they wrote.


			Note part of this is sarcastic....

	Request:

	Maybe one of the reader group will read all the papers in the way
I suggested and then comment on the content of the papers VS the
journalism and general writings by others on the subject.

	OR ... to put it another way... read the papers and yield a
synopsis of the difference between the investigators' writing and the
writng elsewhere.

				J

	PS:		This is a basic study in the history and ethics of
science.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 17:54:39 2000
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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 19:43:59 -0700
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 06:15 PM 10/2/2000 -0400, George Holz wrote:

>> It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which
>> extremely energetic matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing
>> jumps out at me though....anybody see anything here?
>> 
>Perhaps the effect is due to effective increased 
>ZPE (high EM emission density)
>in the regions with "extremely energetic matter".
>I am uncertain if this would be expected to change bound
>electron equilibrium energies in the proper direction
>or in any significant way, but it does seem that some
>change would be a reasonable expectation based on Hal's
>theories.

An excellent suggestion.  However, I believe that Hal's hydrogen ground
state hypothesis predicts that, in a more energetic ZPE, the H atom's
electron would orbit FASTER and CLOSER to the nucleus, radiating more
intensely to balance the increased absorption of energy from the increased
ZPE.  At this instant, however, that seems all backwards to me!  Normally
we bath atoms in EM radiation to make the electrons move AWAY from the
nucleus....not closer.  

I'll explore this with Hal...





Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PatentCafe Eye on IP News
Date: Mon,  2 Oct 2000 16:48:45 -0400
From: "Laura Westlake" <lwestlake cafezine.com>
Reply-To: <lwestlake cafezine.com>
To: "Eye on IP"  <ipfrontline cafezine.com>


EYE ON IP NEWS UPDATE     Mon 02OCT00 Vol. 04: No. 35

=================================================

PatentCafe's Eye On IP / IPFrontline(sm) 

Patent Café; World's Gateway to Intellectual Property

=================================================

NEWS PATENTCAFE

o This Week's Chat - Andy Gibbs
o See Us At...PatentCafe Appearances
o Commissioner Dickinson to hold Online Dialogue
  Session 
o PatentCafe finishes filming with American
  Business Review
o Event Notice: European Multimedia Forum

==================NEWS PATENTCAFE=================

o Tuesday Nite Live Expert Chat - October 3, 2000

PatentCafe CEO Andy Gibbs presents:
"Rules and Guidelines for PatentCafe's Halloween
 Invention Contest"

Andy Gibbs is our guest this week. Andy will be
discussing the rules of PatentCafe's Halloween
Invention Contest Chat, being held Tuesday,
October 31, 2000. Andy will have all the information
you'll need to participate in this unique contest.

http://www.patentcafe.com/chat/100001.html 

Chat Date: October 3, 2000 *TUESDAY NITE*
9:00 - 11:00 PM EASTERN TIME
(6:00 - 8:00 PM Pacific Time)

==================================================

o PatentCafe Appearances

PatentCafe's CEO Andy Gibbs is scheduled to speak at
these upcoming events. There's still time to register
to attend these expos and workshops.

October 6th & 7th
US Patent Office's 5th Annual Independent Inventor 
Conference 
http://www.uspto.gov/go/iic2000/

October 13th & 14th
Yankee Inventor Expo 2000 
http://www.yankeeinventionexpo.org/

November 18th
Mississippi Inventors Conference
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/mssbdc/2000%20Invent%20Conf.%20Brochure.htm

November 20th
International Federation of Inventors Associations
Summit, Hong Kong

=================================================

o Commissioner Dickinson to hold Online Dialogue
  Session 

On Wednesday, October 4, 2000, from 1:00 p.m. to
2:00 p.m. (EST), Under Secretary of Commerce for 
Intellectual Property and Director of the United States
Patent and Trademark Office, Q. Todd Dickinson, will be
available online to answer questions from the agency's 
customers and the public on issues related to the work 
of the USPTO. This is the seventh open online dialogue
for the Under Secretary, and is indicative of the
agency's commitment to the Clinton/Gore Administration's
policy of bringing government to the people. Participants
can ask questions or simply observe the online dialogue 
by logging on to the USPTO’s web site at 
http://www.uspto.gov , then clicking on the home page
link marked "Online Dialogue with the Director of the
USPTO," and following the instructions. 

=================================================

o PatentCafe finishes filming with American
  Business Review

PatentCafe recently wrapped up filming a segment
for the American Business Review series with
Morley Safer.

American Business Review chose PatentCafe to
participate in this project because of PatentCafe's
breadth of high-interest information to a wide
range of users.

American Business Review's project with PatentCafe
highlighted users of PatentCafe including a local
high school biology class who used the patent
database to search for lysosomic enzyme, Bob DeMatteis,
author of From Patent to Profit and inventor of the
next generation of fast food bags now in full scale
integration in nationwide chains, and an on location
piece at the Sacramento Patent and Trademark Depository
Library with Don Kelly, CEO of Academy of Applied Science.

The segment is scheduled to air on PBS stations
nationwide throughout 2000/2001. If we receive air dates
of the segment, we'll be sure to let you know when you
can see the segment in your area.

=================================================

o European Multimedia Forum

The fourth Europe in Music event will take place on
October 26th and 27th, 2000 in the Palais des Congres
in Brussels, during the Viva Musica music fair. This 
workshop will notably focus on e-learning, copyright 
and EU funding in the field of online music, as well 
as the presentation of the PACT and RITMO EMF/FIPI 
Programmes. 

For more details, visit: 
http://www.emf.be/eim/Presentation_October.html

=================================================

According to the IFPI Music Piracy Report 2000, one
out of every three music recordings worldwide is
pirated. The full report is online at
http://www.ifpi.org/library/Piracy2000.pdf

=================================================
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================================================== 

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==================================================
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  2 21:58:17 2000
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Message-ID: <20001003045728.26528.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- Scott Little <little earthtech.org> wrote:
>Regarding the mechanism behind the observation that "newer" matter is
>redshifted, I am intrigued by the rough correlation between x and gamma
ray
>intensity and red shift that Arp notes.  It seems that high redshift
matter
>is also highly energetic matter, emitting photons all the way up into the
>gamma ray energy ranges.
> 
>It strikes me that there may be some mechanism by which extremely
energetic
>matter exhibits redshifts.  Nothing jumps out at me though....anybody see
>anything here?

If large redshifts correspond to large distances, then large redshifts also
correspond to long ago in the past. For example, a 10 billion light year
distance also means that the light we see now was emitted 10 billion years
ago. Therefore, strongly redshifted light is from a time much closer to the
beginning of the universe. I do not know if the evidence supports more
energetic emission from objects that long ago, but for sure, conditions
were different then.




=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 04:09:15 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in a Fluorescent Tube with Added  Hydrogen?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 05:01:34 -0700
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The standard fluorescent tubes contain Argon and Mercury at ~ 10 Millitorr
pressure (cold).

They will fluoresce even in the presence background levels of electromagnetic radiation
across the spectrum (megahertz to gigahertz?)indicating that the gasses are ionized just by
exposure to the environment.

The cold bulbs can be made to visibly fluoresce (in a darkened room) merely by
grasping them firmly with one hand and grabbing and releasing them with the other
hand separated by about a foot.

With a new tube there seems to be an increase in the brightness of the fluorescence
as this is done.

These trivial experiments on four foot  tubes, coupled with  pulsing them using a 1.5 volt
battery and getting picoampere pulses suggest that the tenuous Ar-Hg discharge
May Be producing Light Lepton (LL) pairs in the tube.

If this is the case, adding H2 or D2 to a low pressure Ar-Hg gas should produce CF and/or OU
Heat.

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 09:35:49 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <9f.b712eb3.270b641c aol.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:32:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in a Fluorescent Tube with Added  Hydrogen?
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In a message dated 10/3/00 7:09:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

<< The standard fluorescent tubes contain Argon and Mercury at ~ 10 Millitorr
 pressure (cold). >>

I did some work on vacuum arcs.  The lower the press the less the breakdown 
voltage.

The above atmospheric temp is a good insulator.

Low press gas is a conductor.

I tried many gases a a bell jar.  Ammonia went poof and the bell jar went 
flying.

It was fun.  I added RF stimulation in from my CB radio.  Never saw any 
excess energy.  

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 11:32:43 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Note to Celani about electromigration experiments
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Celani responded briefly to the note I sent yesterday about the thin film 
devices. He agrees with me that they are hampered by being too small and 
fragile, which makes them unsuitable for "industrial" development (as he 
put it). They work for two days at best, before the film self-destructs. 
His own cells use fine wires (0.05 mm diameter) for "more rugged and 
stable" operation. 0.05 may not seem large, but it is compared to the thin 
film devices described by De Ninno et al.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 13:49:44 2000
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Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 15:46:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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At 09:57 PM 10/2/00 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>If large redshifts correspond to large distances, then large redshifts also
>correspond to long ago in the past.

Yes, but we are specifically interested here in the hypothesis that matter 
can exhibit an intrinsic redshift...i.e. that quasars are not far away (and 
therefore are not fantastically bright).

Take a look at this review of Halton Arp's book:

http://metaresearch.org/publications/books/SeeingRed-Arp.asp

for a sense of the depth and quality of the observations which support this 
new hypothesis.

I talked with Hal and, after an initial period during which I succeeding in 
confusing him nearly as much as I had myself, he finally straightened 
everything out.  It is now clear that in an increased ZPF (which amounts to 
an increased value for h), emission spectra would indeed be 
redshifted.  This doesn't really get us anywhere because we still don't 
have any mechanism by which changes in the ZPF could ever occur...but at 
least the relationship between the two is straightened out.

Meanwhile, a new idea (new to me) has surfaced:

http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/index.html

This guy thinks there isn't a high redshift associated with quasars!!!   I 
haven't had time to read it yet....



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 14:25:53 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FE Device
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 16:24:03 CDT
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I missed something in my calculations, there is no loophole.
It won't work.

Back to the ol drawing board
Merlyn

>From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
>Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 14:40:25 CDT
>
>sorry, I must have a wire crossed somewhere... when I wrote monopole what I
>meant was homopolar, not quite the same thing at all... and this is not an
>electrostatic device, it is based on a Faraday Disk (see Bill's page at
>http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/n-mach.html, thanx Bill)
>
>when I finish the prototype I will be able to tell you if it actually works
>as I think it will.
>
>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 14:39:40 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Radioactive exhaust?
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:38:10 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I have reason to suspect that car engines may produce a small amount of
radioactivity while running. Could someone who has a geiger counter check
their car exhaust to see if anything above background is detectable?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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In the concluson of his 1988 article COSMOLOGICAL REDSHIFT

  http://www.ebicom.net/~rsf1/cosmo_rs.htm

Robert S. Fritzius <rsf1 ebicom.net> wrote:

"A word of caution! If we rigidly translate redshifts to distances, then
newly condensing cosmological objects, (late bloomers) could
conceivably be mis-labeled as being much further away and thus
much more energetic that they actually are. Quasars may have already
fallen into this category."

While you are browsing around Fritzius web site at: 

  http://www.ebicom.net/~rsf1/serious.htm

also take a look at his articles on Walter Ritz's Electrodynamics
and the arrow of time.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in a Fluorescent Tube with Added  Hydrogen?
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 13:20:55 +1100
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In reply to  FZNIDARSIC aol.com's message of Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:32:28 EDT:
[snip]
>I tried many gases a a bell jar.  Ammonia went poof and the bell jar went 
>flying.
>
>It was fun.  I added RF stimulation in from my CB radio.  Never saw any 
>excess energy.  
>
>Frank Znidarsic
Hi Frank,

Could you be a little more explicit about the experiment with ammonia?
Did you flush the bell jar so it only contained ammonia?
Did you use the gas, or an ammonia solution in water (unlikely)?
What was the pressure?
What actually made it go "poof", i.e. what was the trigger?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  3 20:49:28 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:47:53 EDT
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion in a Fluorescent Tube with Added  Hydrogen?
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In a message dated 10/3/00 10:27:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

<< Could you be a little more explicit about the experiment with ammonia?
 Did you flush the bell jar so it only contained ammonia? >>

It seems that I did not flush it well enough.  The press in the jar was only 
one or two inches of water.  I never thought it would go positive when the 
are discharged in the jar.

The only "lightning ball" that I ever made was in a microwave oven.  I 
discharged  100 joules of energy at  25 KV in the oven at the end of needle 
point.  The link shows what happened.  This was fun. No excess energy was 
observed but the experiment guided me toward my "Constants of the Motion 
Theory" and some other technologies that I am currently filing disclosures 
on.  

http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/oven.gif

Enjoy

Frank Znidarsic

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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:03:04 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Nature of the Rayleigh Wave
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      Ever since I heard of it's existence, I've been wondering about 
the Rayleigh Wave. Dale Pond, the webmaster of the SVPVRIL 
(sympathetic vibrational physics) website, has posted a graphic  at 
http://www.svpvril.com/Fig_2.1.html .

      As the long time Vortexians will remember, Hal Puthoff was 
issued a patent on a method of transmitting information by a 
nonhertzian wave. I'm wondering what the form of the wave that his 
machine generates, is. I am also wondering if the Tsunami wave has 
the form of the Rayleigh wave. This all relates to the possible 
formation on a plasma vortex. In my opinion, if someone is going to 
tap energy from a vortex or whirlpool, the medium will be plasma.

      Otto Schmitt often mentioned, "the electrodynamic equivalent of 
a Tsunami wave," although he had no ideas on how to generate it.

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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:06:52 +0100
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Alien Observer Orbs
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Someone posted this on the SVP list. Is this a joke? Global Sciences 
has a rather checkered record on making incredible claims. As one 
person said, I couldn't find any references to this on the AFS's 
website.

>]PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS
>]For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999
>]
>]When scientists at the American Science Foundation
>]were asked by a local
>]computer company executive to analyze claims by a
>]study team that some
>]form of extraterrestrial life was using a "doorway"
>]system of highly
>]resonant energy to covertly study humanity, they at
>]first were skeptical.
>]
>]After five months of analysis of the data, the
>]scientists asked to perform
>]the analysis, are no longer skeptical.
>]
>]Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has
>]authenticated that the
>]"doorway system" exists, and that it provides an
>]unknown species or
>]several unknowns, to travel reasonably without
>]observation, all over the
>]surface of our world.
>]
>]In Denver, Co., last week, nearly 600 Attendees of the
>]Global Sciences
>]Congress Annual Convention, had the chance to witness
>]the existence of the
>]Alien Observer Orbs when 15 or so were captured live
>]on Digital Cameras
>]and shown to the stunned audience.  The rest of the
>]conference turned into
>]an Orb-fest, with the Orbs almost obediently lining up
>]for pictures in
>]lines waiting for waters, and in line ups among staff.
>]The captured
>]behavior was indicative of a human compatible
>]intelligence, and a sense of
>]humor, which even staged a scene remeniscent of a
>]scene out of the movie
>]Contact, as if to say that the Orb Portals are
>]metaphoric to an
>]interstellar worm hole transit system used by the
>]Beings from the other
>]side of the Portals.
>]
>]The study has been documented by a rapidly organized
>]study team, which has
>]captured stereo-optic and infra red images of the
>]beings using the
>]"doorway" (called by the team "the Vortex") to enter
>]our world, travel
>]here observing us, and then leaving.
>]
>]The technology at use is extremely stealthy, beyond
>]anything in the US
>]Pentagon's arsenal. And it hasn't escaped the
>]Pentagon's attention,
>]either: as the ASF Study Team (called TEAM ORB)
>]observes the strange
>]Vortex, and follows and films and catalogs the
>]Orb-like evidence of the
>]alien species travels around our planet, the Pentagon
>]is also watching.
>]
>]Several months ago, A study team set up by the
>]Department of Defense,
>]installed permanent installation of observation and
>]monitoring equipment
>]at the Vortex location, to collect images of the
>]strange comings and
>]goings of the beings using the Orb Doorway System.
>]After only two weeks,
>]the insides of the recording equipment were found to
>]have been pluverized
>]by Pentagon experts watching the Vortex and watching
>]the American Science
>]Foundations' TEAM ORB, but the equipment was unopened,
>]and the Pentagon is
>]at a loss to determine how their equipment was damaged
>]only on its insides
>]without being opened.
>]
>]Pentagon and FBI personnel had little to say about the
>]actions of the
>]travelling Orb phenomena, other than to suggest that
>]the 1 to 5 foot tall
>]phenomena captured by TEAM ORB, were nothing but
>]"pollen". A Member of
>]Team Orb was heard to comment: "Sorry, but I left my
>]Electron Microscope
>]home." Apparently the Government finds this situation
>]amusing, because it
>]is powerless to stop the Orb Beings from visiting with
>]private citizens in
>]their homes and offices.
>]
>]"The Beings trashed the Pentagon's equipment," said
>]Team Orb members,
>]"they were quite annoyed with us at first, because it
>]looked like we
>]inadvertantly caused the Pentagon and the NSA to bring
>]in heavy equipment
>]to study THEM, but now the Beings seem to have gotten
>]over it. Apparently,
>]the Aliens went up to the Pentagon's equipment
>]installation and used some
>]form of technology on it, to leave a message for the
>]Department of Defense
>]and the National Security Agency. They are very much
>]against war and
>]intrigue, these beings! They find our concept of
>]Military very primitive."
>]
>]TEAM ORB has recently received numerous offers of
>]funding by high tech
>]firms interested in receiving the benefit of the
>]scientific studies of the
>]Vortex and the Beings who use the Orb Doorway System
>]to observe and study
>]humanity.
>]
>]"If TEAM ORB can produce enough information about how
>]the Vortex Doorway
>]System works, imagine the benefits," stated George
>]Gemmiel, an AT&T
>]Executive who was one of the several parties
>]interested in the device and
>]expressed interest to TEAM ORB. "I am keenly
>]interested in the study, as
>]we at AT&T were recently made aware of the Doorway,
>]and have independently
>]verified that the Orbs are real, are under intelligent
>]control, and
>]appears to be a form of technology. But whatever
>]controls it does not
>]appear to like us up there with our equipment, unlike
>]how TEAM ORB is
>]treated: their team members are welcomed by these
>]objects everytime they
>]visit. We hope to interest TEAM ORB in a technology
>]exchange agreement."
>]
>]David G., an executive at SAIC Bellcore, indicated
>]that his firm was
>]interested in the Technological Advantages offered by
>]any remote alien
>]species who might be visiting earth. "If we can
>]conquer space-time, the
>]way ACC's Jack Shulman has suggested the Orb Portals
>]provide these beings,
>]then we should be able to LEAP BEYOND Einstein
>]Relativity, to a new
>]understanding of the Universe and how to Explore it,
>]in real time,
>]travelling beyond the Light Years, in seconds. Its
>]quite exciting."
>]
>]TEAM ORB had recently offered to take the Orbs and the
>]beings using them
>]on "field trips" to NASA, the US Government, and the
>]Vatican, offers which
>]resulted in interest, yet some trepidation. The
>]Government offer caused
>]the Pentagon to take up position near the Wanaque
>]Vortex. NASA indicated
>]that they had hired a director to look into it. TEAM
>]ORB members responded
>]with:
>]
>]"Well, we have one consolation, if we do break the
>]barriers down between
>]us and these Alien Visitors, we can all be reassured
>]at knowing that the
>]first words the Aliens hear, will be: 'Hello, my name
>]is Blumberg!".
>]
>]The American Science Foundation team has been highly
>]successful in
>]standing off all debunkers, by providing
>]authentication of their film
>]study method and by taking various members of the
>]public to the Vortex
>]where they are enabled to take their own photos of
>]this remarkable find.
>]
>]"Humanity may not be ready for this discovery," stated
>]a TEAM ORB lead
>]investigator, Bryan Williams, who was one of the
>]original discoverers of
>]the Vortex Doorway System. "But, apparently these
>]astral alien beings, or
>]whatever they are, are ready for Humanity. I think we
>]have no option but
>]to open up a relationship with them and educate
>]ourselves as to who they
>]are and what they want. It seems there is some kind of
>]conflict going on
>]between Aliens of one order and another order, which
>]would look kind of
>]like lizards and dragons to us, here on Earth, they
>]are so Alien looking.
>]This conflict threatens to invade our space-time. I
>]think the Orb Beings
>]are here to try to prepare us for the possibility of
>]being drawn into a
>]vast political conflict beyond our past experience,
>]which may pop into our
>]Solar System through one of these Interstellar,
>]Interdimensional, Astral
>]Doorways they use for faster than light or
>]interdimensional travel. We
>]need to all be very open minded, as they are obviously
>]more advanced than
>]we humans are."
>]
>]"As to the Pentagon..." added ACC CEO, who has been
>]providing some
>]publicity support for TEAM ORB, and some limited
>]sponsorship, "it seems to
>]me their message to the Pentagon was - 'kids should
>]not play with toys
>]they don't fully understand'. This probably refers to
>]the Pentagon's
>]attempts to peek in at the Alien Travellers and
>]Observe them
>]Scientifically. The Pentagon should really consult
>]with TEAM ORB directly,
>]before messing. They're going to waste a ton of money,
>]for no reason,
>]doing it covertly, because their idea of 'covert' has
>]the Orb Beings
>]chuckling and holding back out and out laughter."
>]
>]"I guess when your that advanced, a B2 looks like a
>]balsa wood childs toy!"
>]
>]Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>]
>]Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>]
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:06:54 EDT
Subject: Re: The Nature of the Rayleigh Wave
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In a message dated 10/4/00 9:38:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:

<< 
       As the long time Vortexians will remember, Hal Puthoff was 
 issued a patent on a method of transmitting information by a 
 nonhertzian wave. I'm wondering what the form of the wave that his 
 machine generates, is. I am also wondering if the Tsunami wave has  >>

I doing the same.  Podklenov's discovery if correctly interpreted exactly 
tells us how to couple strongly with gravity.  I have a good idea of how to 
build a transmitting and receiving antennas that couple strongly with 
gravity.  Such a device could communicate gravitationally with submarines 
under the ocean and through the earth to miners.  I will not reveal my design.

Hal Fox is the process of publishing my "Constants of the Motion Paper."

I believe that with this publication the cap we will have finally pulled the 
cap off of the genies bottle.  We may have to shake the bottle a few times to 
get the genie to come out.  Miley may help me shake the bottle.  Once the 
genie is out she is not going back in.
I believe in what I am doing.

Frank Znidarsic

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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:38:52 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Radioactive exhaust?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi Robin,

When I first got my radiation detector, I spent several days checking out
various  places around the house and yard for radioactivity.

It should be no surprise, if you have a sensitive instrument, that you can
find readings that are 50% higher than background (10-12 millirem/ hr) in
many surprising places - such as: bananas, bricks, many common stones, a tv
screen surface is loaded (hv attracts radon daughters, I am told, as do some
plant leafs in the garden)  and yes auto exhaust. However, auto exhaust is
far less on a volume basis than is a gas stove (at least in California). When
I am running long term experiments in the winter with data logging on, I can
usually follow the cycle of the gas furnace coming on and off just from
looking at the data chart, even though the detector window is several meters
from the furnace.

The radioactivity is car exhaust probably comes from a few ppm of U or Th
that is also found in coal and other hydrocarbons. In natural gas,
radioactivity is most likely from radon.

What, exactly were you looking for? With a sensitive detector, you can
sometimes guess what the isotope is by collecting a sample in a porous cloth
and looking for a half-life decay pattern over several days of data logging.
There are charts on the internet to help with this but it's an art as there
are often numerous isotopes in any given sample.


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> I have reason to suspect that car engines may produce a small amount of
> radioactivity while running. Could someone who has a geiger counter check
> their car exhaust to see if anything above background is detectable?
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 09:49:47 2000
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:47:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Alien Observer Orbs
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>Someone posted this on the SVP list. Is this a joke? Global Sciences
>has a rather checkered record on making incredible claims. As one
>person said, I couldn't find any references to this on the AFS's
>website.
>
>>]PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS
>>]For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999
>>]

[lengthy spoof or delusion snipped]

***{It strikes me as obvious, utter nonsense. The only question is whether
the author believes it himself. --MJ}***

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Radioactive exhaust?
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Jones Beene wrote:

It should be no surprise, if you have a sensitive instrument, that you can
>find readings that are 50% higher than background (10-12 millirem/ hr) in
>many surprising places - such as: bananas, bricks, many common stones, a tv
>screen surface is loaded (hv attracts radon daughters, I am told, as do some
>plant leafs in the garden)  and yes auto exhaust.

How far away from the TV screen or computer monitor do you see a 
significant increase?

- Jed

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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> Someone posted this on the SVP list. Is this a joke? Global Sciences
> has a rather checkered record on making incredible claims. As one
> person said, I couldn't find any references to this on the AFS's
> website.
> 
> >]PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS
> >]For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999
> >]
> >]When scientists at the American Science Foundation
> >]were asked by a local
> >]computer company executive to analyze claims by a
> >]study team that some
> >]form of extraterrestrial life was using a "doorway"
> >]system of highly
> >]resonant energy to covertly study humanity, they at
> >]first were skeptical.

Thomas,

About 2/3rds of the way down you see:

". . .ACC's Jack Shulman has suggested . . ."

Do you recall the "transpacitor" story?  If not, we should move
this to vortexb to discuss it.

Terry

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Scott Little wrote:

Meanwhile, a new idea (new to me) has surfaced:

http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/index.html

This guy thinks there isn't a high redshift associated
with quasars!!!   I haven't had time to read it yet....

Hi Scott,

Your question about redshift and high energy processes, then
the tie to Tony Peratt and plasmas, and now John Talbot's
"LASER ACTION IN RECOMBINING PLASMAS",
http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/T1995/recombination.html
has opened up an entirely new "electrical" approach to
the apparent "redshift" of quasars.

I may have misunderstood what I have read, but I gather that
Talbot thinks that quasars are no more redshifted than their
their parent galaxies.  What we observe as redshift is the result
of the quasar acting as a laser:

Talbot writes:

"Every photon can 'stimulate' the emission of
another photon of identical wavelength, phase and
polarization. Quantum mechanics tells us that the emission
of stimulated photons increases when the ambient radiations
field contains a large number of previously stimulated
photons ...

The exponential growth of the amplified spontaneous
emission due to the 'chain reaction' nature of stimulated
emission and the very large distances involved in stellar
plasmas, lead us to conclude that even for very small
gains the laser emission line will dominate the spectrum."

I hope we will continue to explore this fascinating lead.

Jack Smith


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Jed Rothwell wrote

> How far away from the TV screen or computer monitor do you see a
> significant increase?
>

Not to worry. You cannot measure any  increase at normal viewing distance. In
fact to get a significant reading you need to take a tissue and wipe the entire
screen. You will then find perhaps a double reading over background, i.e. an
extra 10 microrem/hr with a very short half-life.

BTW in previous post I noticed that  I said that normal background was 10-12
millirem/hr - this should have read microrem/hr. Often the small latin letter m
is used for this, which serves to further confuse things, especially if you try
to sneak it into an email post and the recipient doesn't have html.

To put this all into perspective (if memory serves), an airline pilot on every
flight gets about 50 microrem/hr extra radiation just from the increased cosmic
radiation at 35,000 ft.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 14:26:12 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 08:23:29 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:38:52 -0700:
[snip]
>What, exactly were you looking for? With a sensitive detector, you can
>sometimes guess what the isotope is by collecting a sample in a porous cloth
>and looking for a half-life decay pattern over several days of data logging.
>There are charts on the internet to help with this but it's an art as there
>are often numerous isotopes in any given sample.
[snip]
What I'm looking for is O15, which has a half life of about 2 minutes, and
decays by positron decay. Hence I would expect gammas from positron
annihilation. I would not have thought of a gas flame as a source, but it is
certainly possible.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 18:48:11 2000
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Hi Scott,

Here is another "electrical" approach
to red shift.

Jack Smith

COSMOLOGICAL REDSHIFT, By Robert S. Fritzius
305 Hillside Drive Starkville, MS 39759

... If galaxies are condensates from a primordial soup,
then their material densities should be increasing
with time. We hypothesize that the unit electrical
charge is proportional to the "local" galactic
material density.

That is, the electrical charge of
any given electron or proton is related to the total
number of other protons, electrons, etc., that are
close enough to influence it via direct
electrodynamic elementary interactions. A distance
of five light years may suffice ...

We propose that, if the unit electrical charge
within galaxies has been increasing down through
cosmological ages, then the strength of electrical
interactions between their constituent atomic nuclei
and their atomic electrons has also been increasing.

The sizes of atoms should have been decreasing and
the energies of their electrons in orbit should have
been increasing as side effects of the basic
galactic condensation process.

According to this approach, the orbital electrons in
the atoms of stellar atmospheres back in our earlier
universe, would have been less energetic than those
of electrons of the same present-day atoms. The
energy differences between their electron shells
would have also been smaller in comparison to those
of present day.

Thus, photons emitted by stars, made
up of the less energetic atoms of long ago, would
have carried away smaller amounts of energy and
would have had longer wavelengths than those emitted
by corresponding present day atoms in this corner of
our galaxy.

Redshifts associated with increasingly distant
galaxies may not be related to an ever-increasing
speed of recession, ...

A word of caution! If we rigidly translate redshifts
to distances, then newly condensing cosmological
objects, (late bloomers) could conceivably be
mis-labeled as being much further away and thus much
more energetic that they actually are. Quasars may
have already fallen into this category.

Reference

(1) John G. Fox, Evidence Against Emission Theories,
American Journal of Physics, Vol. 33, No. 1,
pp.1-17, January 1965.

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Isn't it incredibly convenient that only one "professional" team has been 
allowed to monitor this phenomena directly.

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  4 23:46:30 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Aurora
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If the weather's nice and it is night time go outside!  You might see an aurora.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Have a nice day.   :-)

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/10/04/dioxin.sources.ap/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  5 11:17:37 2000
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Subject: Progress in voice recognition
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Version 5.0 of NaturallySpeaking has been published. It is an improvement. 
It makes fewer mistakes, and it does not crash the computer as often. The 
new ME version of Windows, on the other hand, seems to crash the computer 
even more often than Win 98 SE did.

A theoretical breakthrough in voice recognition has been reported, but some 
experts are skeptical. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,31644,00.html

The program is reportedly better able to separate speech from white noise, 
and even better able to distinguish between words, than a human. It uses a 
neural net approach, which is not new, but what is reportedly revolutionary 
about this program is that it takes into account timing, or the relative 
speed at which sounds arrive. Quotes:

"Incredibly, Berger said the SRS's superhuman performance is the result of 
implementing a fairly obvious feature that had previously been overlooked.

Berger, a neurobiologist by training, said he and Liaw realized that a 
crucial characteristic of biological nervous systems -- the ability of 
neurons to change their behavior according to the timing of input signals 
-- had never before been implemented in neural nets.

'It's hard to believe, I know,' he said. 'But there it is.'

In Berger and Liaw's model, the timing of inputs are crucial. A neuron may 
fire if two input signals come very close together, but will not fire if 
the same two signals are just slightly further apart."

I find this amazing, because timing (relative timing, or what might be 
called rhythm), is all-important in semantic distinctions, especially in 
Japanese, and in English less frequently. For example, in American English 
the difference between "otter" and "odder" (more odd) is strictly a matter 
of timing -- "odder" has a longer drawn out initial vowel. You would think 
that the speech recognition researchers and their colleagues building 
neural nets would have been aware of timing as a general issue, but perhaps 
they overlooked it. In some fields, progress has been delayed for long time 
because a fairly obvious and simple aspect of a problem was overlooked.

The human ability to distinguish speech from background noise is what you 
might call "instinctive, learned behavior." It is not automatic. People who 
are cured of deafness as adults, who miss the opportunity to learn how to 
distinguished noise from speech in early childhood, have a great deal of 
difficulty adjusting. There was a fascinating article about this recently: 
"Wired for Sound," Washington Post, October 3, 2000

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64623-2000Oct3.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  5 18:14:07 2000
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October 5, 2,000

Vortex,

Reported by Peter Weiss of Science News on September 30th issue.
summary:
New theoretical Research by Humphrey J. Maris of Brown University in
R.I. suggest that electrons can split in two.
His theory seems to help explain unusual results of experiments on
liquid helium back in the 1960's. Back then, researchers found light on
a voltage charged liquid helium increased the current of negative
charges. Also, experiments suggested that as many as 13 different types
of unidentified negatively charged particles were were moving about in
the liquid at distinctly different speeds.
Maris is currently undertaking to build an apparatus to confirm his
theoretical calculations showing the electron split with light.

-ak-

I used to wonder how selenium photocell converted light into electrons.
I wonder if there is a connection.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  5 18:35:04 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:33:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Mills's Hydrino, meet Maris's Electrino
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We I went down to see Nover at NASA Marshall he told me of NASA downshifting 
of the frequencies theory.  I immediately recognized that that was the way to 
express things.  I was using the term wavelength.  According to this idea the 
electron does not split in two, rather its Compton frequency downshifts.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  5 23:40:06 2000
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:38:55 EDT
Subject: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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Dear All,

I have just received an email from Tom Bearden himself about :

***** A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER ******* MUST BE READ ********

<<  As you are aware, this one works beautifully and produces COP=5.0.  Our
  patent application has been filed and so full patent coverage is retained; 
>>
                                              Has said Tom Bearden

>  Information on our Motionless Electromagnetic Generator has now been
>  publicly released, in the form of our paper, "The Motionless 
Electromagnetic
>  Generator: Extracting Energy from a Permanent Magnet with
>  Energy-Replenishing from the Active Vacuum," carried on public DoE website
>
>  http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/MEGpaper.pdf
>  
>  Thus you may furnish the information to whomever you wish, since it is now
>  publicly released and can be freely downloaded.  It is a long paper (69
>  pages) and does take a little time to download.
>  
>  We are encouraging web site managers who so wish, to place a pointer to the
>  paper if they wish to.
>  
>  As you are aware, this one works beautifully and produces COP=5.0.  Our
>  patent application has been filed and so full patent coverage is retained;
>  we have been in patent-pending status for some time prior to the public
>  release.  We expect to force the patent by direct demonstration and
>  independent government-certified test laboratory testing and certification
>  to NIST, IEEE, and U.S. Government test standards.
>  
>  The system uses an extension to the work-energy theorem:  In a replenishing
>  potential environment, when energy is removed from the potential in a
>  different form, the potential is simply replenished by the giant entropy
>  process (my paper on the giant negentropy process is on the same DoE
>  website).  Use of a permanent magnet simply uses its magnetostatic scalar
>  potential to evoke and sustain the giant negentropy mechanism.  This
>  sustains the continuous flow of the magnetic vector potential, and the
>  device separates the magnetic B-field from the magnetic vector potential A.
>  The giant negentropy mechanism continuously replenishes the A-potential as
>  fast as energy is extracted from it.   Thus it is rather like dipping 
bucket
>  after bucket of water from the same spatial volume in a rushing river, with
>  the river instantly filling the hole up each time a dip is made.  In this
>  case we must pay only for the switching costs, since the giant negentropy
>  mechanism continually replenishes the magnetic dipole sustaining the
>  magnetic vector potential energy flow.  Note that we do not destroy the
>  source dipole, as every conventional closed current loop electrical system
>  does.  As Whittaker showed in 1903, once the dipolarity is established, the
>  giant negentropy process continues so long as the dipole exists.  Dipoles 
in
>  original matter, e.g., have been pouring out copious energy by this process
>  for some 15 billion years, so the energy is absolutely inexhaustible and
>  copious.
>  
>  There are 23 illustrations in the Magnetic Energy Ltd. paper on the DoE
>  website.
>  
>  Very best wishes,
>  Tom
>  

    PS: PLEASE FORWARD THIS INFO AROUND THE WEB..... 

Good reading and good experiments,

Best Regards

Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs
Alternate web site: http://jnaudin.free.fr/
eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846 
ICQ: UIN 74846

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 09:21:48 2000
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Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:15:28 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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First take on Bearden Generator:

There is plenty of reworked Bearden theory here that has been gussied up to look
like government work BUT when you get right down to the actual device, it is
nothing more than the tried and yet unproven magnetic "flux gate."

I'm sure Fred Epps can supply a ream of similar patents to Bearden's present
device that are structurally similar and functionally identical - but the bottom
line is that one cannot patent on theory alone - no matter how many PhDs want to
sign the application. Even if the previous patentee doesn't have your fancy
theory, then he will win in court if his device comes first.

The only chance this has of being an advance to the "state of the art" is if this
mysterious "nanocrystaline" material, which is not specified and doesn't appear to
be a part of the patent, is indeed the determinative factor for OU. The very fact
that this important item is cloaked in secrecy  pretty much indicates the true
state of affairs in this impending disappointment. If this device does work at
all, which I am dubious about because even the scope reading photos he included
don't show a clear OU, then Bearden's group has probably made the real "flux gate"
patent holders rich men.

It should be noted that it is possible to combine, in a valid patent, two
techniques that are someone else's ideas - and still  get protection BUT only if
the desired end result is unique. That is not the case here as the flux gate
patents all seek to capture free energy and Bearden's theory combined with someone
else's material advance probably won't help much.

This quick note is just an "off the cuff" first shot - and I HOPE to be proven
wrong (that is, if true OU has been demonstrated rather than Bearden's notorious
convoluted hype, which most of us on this forum grew weary of years ago).

Jones


JNaudin509 aol.com wrote:

> I have just received an email from Tom Bearden himself about :
>
> ***** A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER ******* MUST BE READ ********
> >  we have been in patent-pending status for some time prior to the public
> >  release.  We expect to force the patent by direct demonstration and
> >  independent government-certified test laboratory testing and certification
> >  to NIST, IEEE, and U.S. Government test standards.
> >
> >  The system uses an extension to the work-energy theorem:  In a replenishing
> >  potential environment, when energy is removed from the potential in a
> >  different form, the potential is simply replenished by the giant entropy
> >  process (my paper on the giant negentropy process is on the same DoE
> >  website).  Use of a permanent magnet simply uses its magnetostatic scalar
> >  potential to evoke and sustain the giant negentropy mechanism.  This
> >  sustains the continuous flow of the magnetic vector potential, and the
> >  device separates the magnetic B-field from the magnetic vector potential A.
> >  The giant negentropy mechanism continuously replenishes the A-potential as
> >  fast as energy is extracted from it.   Thus it is rather like dipping
> bucket
> >  after bucket of water from the same spatial volume in a rushing river, with
> >  the river instantly filling the hole up each time a dip is made.  In this
> >  case we must pay only for the switching costs, since the giant negentropy
> >  mechanism continually replenishes the magnetic dipole sustaining the
> >  magnetic vector potential energy flow.  Note that we do not destroy the
> >  source dipole, as every conventional closed current loop electrical system
> >  does.  As Whittaker showed in 1903, once the dipolarity is established, the
> >  giant negentropy process continues so long as the dipole exists.  Dipoles
> in
> >  original matter, e.g., have been pouring out copious energy by this process
> >  for some 15 billion years, so the energy is absolutely inexhaustible and
> >  copious.
> >
> >  There are 23 illustrations in the Magnetic Energy Ltd. paper on the DoE
> >  website.
> >
> >  Very best wishes,
> >  Tom
> >
>
>     PS: PLEASE FORWARD THIS INFO AROUND THE WEB.....
>
> Good reading and good experiments,
>
> Best Regards
>
> Jean-Louis Naudin
> Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
> Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs
> Alternate web site: http://jnaudin.free.fr/
> eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/
> WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846
> ICQ: UIN 74846

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 11:27:28 2000
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Subject: Microturbine news
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http://www.latimes.com/business/20001006/t000094930.html

Microturbines to Go for a Test Drive

Autos: Capstone's generators will power Hyundai's electric-hybrid SUV. 
Lower emissions, longer range expected.

By JERRY HIRSCH, Times Staff Writer

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October 6, 2,000

FZNIDARSIC wrote:
According to this idea the electron does not split in two, rather its Compton
>frequency downshifts.

I 'dunno bout 'downshifts. : ) Or for that matter much about split electrons.

However, Weiss reports that Maris's 'Electrino Bubble Theory's' quantum mechanics
calculations shows, that known loose electrons in ultracold helium have a trait
to expand into bubblelike entities in wave form. And the bubble, excited by
light, calculates to elongate, narrows at the waist, and finally splits into two
smaller fragment bubbles. perhaps not of equal sizes. What is not said is the
question whether these fragments 'grow' into full size bubbles with continued
excitation with light.

Maris's paper was due out in the August Journal of Low Temperature Physics.

There seems to be very many physicist sceptics regardless of the theory's help to
explain the results to the helium studies of the sixties since there has been no
known experiments in a century to indicate electron splits.

Considering that we already send off wave packets (radar pulses) in narrow beams
off into space to be bounced back like particles, Maris's idea doesn't sound so
radical to me.

-AK-



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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 06, 2000
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 06 Oct 00   Washington, DC

UPDATE ON ROBERT PARK'S CONDITION.  He's kicking butt in rehab.

1. SNOOZER ONE. The presidential debate Tuesday night drew the
smallest audience in history.  Two networks, NBC and Fox, didn't
even bother to air it.  They might have made the smart decision. 
It was all canned goods, and moderator Jim Lehrer didn't try to
pry any of it open.  But Bush did trot out one new research area:
fuzzy math.  Word is that it will be a new NSF initiative.  

2. SNOOZER TWO. Not to be upstaged by their standard bearers,
former House Science Committee Chairman Bob Walker, an unpaid
advisor to the Bush campaign, and Chief Domestic Policy Advisor
to the Vice President David Beier, who spoke for the Gore
campaign, duked it out yesterday at the AAAS.  Well, sort of. 
Walker said that Bush would pull education out of recession, make
the R&D tax credit permanent, double the NIH budget, push through
tort reform and eliminate stock divestiture for all federal
workers.  (Dick Cheney's name didn't come up.)  Beier said that
Gore would improve education, press for the R&D tax credit,
double the NIH budget, maintain balance in the R&D portfolio and
continue to treat science horizontally - hopefully not the
budget.  On creationism, Walker said that he couldn't speak for
Bush, while Beier said that Gore opposed teaching it in science
classes, but it was OK for religious instruction.  Moderator Joe
Palca (NPR) looked pretty relaxed.  No networks covered the show.

3. DOE SCIENCE HUZZAHS. Only two months ago, DOE'S Office of
Science was on the slippery slope.  Budget caps, radiation leaks,
security leaks and a defiant Secretary had given the Department a
ghastly rap.  And the science accounts headed down.  But after
thousands of researchers flooded the Hill with letters during the
August recess, appropriators reversed course.  In the last minute
scramble to get out of town, Congress has now opened the spending
spigot, and conferees have turned cuts into increases.  Here's
the round-up of DOE R&D gains: Office of Science Total 14.0%,
High-Energy Physics 2.2%, Nuclear Physics 3.6%, Fusion 1.8%,
Basic Energy Sciences 30.0% (Spallation Neutron Source 136.3%),
Advanced Scientific Computing 14.3%, Biological & Environmental
Research 14.3%, Multiprogram Lab Support 15.5%.  But not so fast. 
The White House has threatened a veto over a Missouri River water
control plan.  Still, WN is cracking open a bottle of Moet.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily share by the APS, but they should be.)
This week's WN was written by Michael Lubell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 16:38:36 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/index.html

This guy thinks there isn't a high redshift associated
with quasars!!!   I haven't had time to read it yet....

Hi All,

...  redshift and high energy processes ...
the tie to Tony Peratt and plasmas, and now John Talbot's
"LASER ACTION IN RECOMBINING PLASMAS",
http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/T1995/recombination.html
has opened up an entirely new "electrical" approach to
the apparent "redshift" of quasars.

I gather that Talbot thinks that quasars
are no more redshifted than their their parent
galaxies.  What we observe as redshift is the result
of the quasar acting as a laser:

Talbot writes:

 ... The exponential growth of the amplified spontaneous
emission due to the 'chain reaction' nature of stimulated
emission and the very large distances involved in stellar
plasmas, lead us to conclude that even for very small
gains the laser emission line will dominate the spectrum."

Peratt writes:

NON-VELOCITY REDSHIFTS, By Anthony Peratt, [downloaded] 10-6-00

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/redshifts.html

"The Wolf Effect and Gravitational Redshifts

Spectral lines can be redshifted toward longer wavelengths or
blueshifted toward shorter ones. The Doppler effect explains how
these shifts occur because of relative motions of the source and
the observer along the line of sight. Approach causes a blueward
shift and recessional a redward one ...

Gravity as described by Einstein could [also] account for wavelength
shifts in the spectrum of light as it travels through space ...

In the past few years, however, experiments have shown that there
is a third way to shift spectral lines. This mechanism involves
non-Lambertian sources that emit beamed energy, such as lasers and
devices producing synchrotron light. The discoverer of this new
effect is physicist Emil Wolf, who, along with Max Born, wrote the
definitive textbook "Principles of Optics."

A mechanical analog to Wolf's discovery is a pair of tuning forks
with nearly identical resonant frequencies (pitches). If these
forks are connected together mechanically by, say, a sounding
board, the coupling is strong and the resonant frequencies tend to
get "dragged down" to lower ones. In other words, the wavelength
is lengthened, or redshifted ...

Thus the assumption that quasars-beamed electromagnetic radiators
with large redshifts-are part of the "Hubble flow" of an expanding
universe could be wrong. This effect should also apply to normal
galaxies, most of whose matter is in the plasma state ..."

There is lots of interesting material at Peratt' web site
about plasmas -- go to "Home" (it's an icon) from the above url.

Jack Smith


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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:33:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/6/00 9:22:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:

> First take on Bearden Generator:
>  
>  There is plenty of reworked Bearden theory here that has been gussied up 
to 
> look like government work BUT when you get right down to the actual device, 
it is
>  nothing more than the tried and yet unproven magnetic "flux gate."

What does "gussied up to look like government work" mean?

>  
>  I'm sure Fred Epps can supply a ream of similar patents to Bearden's 
present
>  device that are structurally similar and functionally identical - but the 
> bottom line is that one cannot patent on theory alone

Hold on a second Jones, the paper reports experimental evidence.

 - no matter how many PhDs 
> want to sign the application. Even if the previous patentee doesn't have 
your fancy
>  theory, then he will win in court if his device comes first.
>  
>  The only chance this has of being an advance to the "state of the art" is 
if 
> this mysterious "nanocrystaline" material, which is not specified and 
doesn't 
> appear to be a part of the patent, ...

I don't see anything  "mysterious" here at all.  On page 5 of the paper 
footnote 4
clearly states "Obtained off-the-shelf as a commercial product from 
Honeywell".

>   ...is indeed the determinative factor for OU. The very 
> fact that this important item is cloaked in secrecy  pretty much indicates 
the 
> true state of affairs in this impending disappointment. If this device does 
work 
> at all, which I am dubious about because even the scope reading photos he 
> included don't show a clear OU, then Bearden's group has probably made the 
real "flux 
> gate" patent holders rich men.
>  
>  It should be noted that it is possible to combine, in a valid patent, two
>  techniques that are someone else's ideas - and still  get protection BUT 
> only if the desired end result is unique. That is not the case here as the 
flux gate
>  patents all seek to capture free energy and Bearden's theory combined with 
> someone else's material advance probably won't help much.

Was this "flux gate" you mention ever proved experimentally?

>  
>  This quick note is just an "off the cuff" first shot - and I HOPE to be 
> proven wrong (that is, if true OU has been demonstrated rather than 
Bearden's 
> notorious convoluted hype, which most of us on this forum grew weary of 
years ago).
>  
>  Jones
>  

Most of us?  Speak for thyself sir.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 19:35:47 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:33:43 EDT
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/5/00 11:40:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
JNaudin509 aol.com writes:

> Dear All,
>  
>  I have just received an email from Tom Bearden himself about :
>  
>  ***** A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER ******* MUST BE READ ********
>  
>  <<  As you are aware, this one works beautifully and produces COP=5.0.  Our
>    patent application has been filed and so full patent coverage is 
retained; 
> 
>  >>

I downloaded and have just finished reading this paper.  If this pans 
out...WOW!!
A no fuel source of  BIG power.  The implications are mind boggling.


Thanks to Jean Louis for posting this.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  6 19:55:46 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:54:21 EDT
Subject: The Bearden Generator
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I went to the Honeywell website and found this:

 <A 
HREF="http://www.electronicmaterials.com/businesses/sem/amorph/page5_1_2.htm">
Click here: Amorphous Metals                                                  
    </A> 

Anyone know the exact material used. Nanocrystalline is kind
of a general term.

I sure would like to try this. Maybe I can use it to
power the glow discharge experiment. <grin>

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 00:02:50 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 03:01:01 EDT
Subject: WHEN can we tell OPEC we don't need your oil?
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
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I read the Tom Bearden papers. 
Three Ph.D'S, two B.S.'S
Very interesting reading. I have respect for Mr. Bearden's work. I think he 
is on to something. He may have found a true "free energy source".
Now what I want to know is, when can we tell OPEC we don't need your oil any 
more?
When can I call the power company and tell them to come take their meter off 
my house?
Six months, a year, six years, sixty years, when?
When are we going to stop filling the patent office with paper and start 
running our homes with "free energy" ?
When am I going to see a self sustaining "free energy" machine that will put 
out as much light as a fire fly's butt, and do it hour after hour, day after 
day, year after year?
I'm am working day and night to build an overunity device. If I do I will put 
it on public display for the world to see. I will give away plans for free. I 
will power my home and car for the world to witness. 
I do know at the moment of one free energy device that could power New York 
City for a couple of years. It would be a steam powered generator that could 
be fueled by paper from all the "free energy" patents on file at the US 
patent office. 
Regards,
Butch LaFonte


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>I would like
> to throw out these thoughts as to how you can get 3H, 3He and 4He
> plus heat under the conditions McKubre uses.
> 
> First of all to keep track of the "quarks" or subunits in an atom/isotope:
> 
> In each atom or isotope there are 5A - 2Z "quarks" or subunits:
> 
> 2A "up" or positive units
> 2A - Z "down" or negative units
>   A - Z   neutrinos
> --------------------
> 5A - 2Z   total units
> 
> 1H1, 5A - 2Z = 5 - 2 = 3,  2 "up" + 1 "down" + 0 neutrinos = 3
> 
> 1H2,  5A - 2Z = 10 - 2 =  8,  4 "up" + 3 "down" + 1 neutrino = 8
> 
> 1H3,  5A - 2Z = 15 - 2 = 13,   6 "up" + 5 "down" + 2 neutrinos = 13
> 
> 2He3,  5A - 2Z = 15- 4 = 11,   6 "up" + 4 "down" + 1 neutrino = 11
> 
> 2He4,  5A - 2Z = 20 - 4 = 16,  8 "up" + 6 "down" + 2 neutrinos = 16
> 
> Assuming that a "collision" or squeeze force between an electron and a proton
> or deuteron can create a Light Lepton (+/-) pair from a photon in the range of
> 4.5 ev in accordance with dE = hbar/dt. Then immediately the LL+ is taken up
> by the electron to form the Neutral "Electrino" (e*) and the LL- is taken up by the
> proton to form the Neutral "Hydrino" P* or a Neutral "Deuterino" (D*) all
> giving off EUV Heat in their formation.
> 
> Then the reactions, gamma-less and aneutronic can occur under McKubre's conditions:
> 
> P* + P + e* ---->  D + neutrino + LL- + LL+,  + ~ 2.2 Mev
> 
> P* + D + e* ----> T + neutrino + LL- + LL+,  + ? Kev
> 
> P* + D ---->  2He3 + LL- + ? Kev  
> 
> D* D ---->  2He4 + LL- + ~ 24 Mev
> 
> Under the "condensed matter" conditions, the "isotope anomalies" can also be
> explained with this "model".  
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 02:34:48 2000
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Subject: Re: Mills's Hydrino, meet Maris's Electrino
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On October 5, 2,000 Akira wrote:

>Vortex,

>Reported by Peter Weiss of Science News on September 30th issue,
>summary:
>New theoretical Research by Humphrey J. Maris of Brown University in
>R.I. suggest that electrons can split in two.
>
Who there! :-) That's about as absurd as fractionally charged "Quarks",
which is tantamount to having a coin without a flip side.
>
> His theory seems to help explain unusual results of experiments on
>liquid helium back in the 1960's. Back then, researchers found light on
>a voltage charged liquid helium increased the current of negative
>charges.
>
Two possibilities:

1, The photons from the light source was creating Light Lepton Pairs (+/-).

2, The liquid helium was condensing atmospheric air that already contained LL (+/-) Pairs.
>
>Also, experiments suggested that as many as 13 different types
>of unidentified negatively charged particles were moving about in 
>the liquid a distinctly different speeds.
>
Sure. The LL+ entity if taken up by an electron (e-) will form the Neutral "Electrino" (e*)
which will allow the LL- entities to take on various radii and thus move at different speeds
through the liquid helium.
>
>-ak-

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 08:10:17 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:08:58 EDT
Subject: Re: WHEN can we tell OPEC we don't need your oil?
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When?   If I successfully deliver my 'Constants of the Motion Paper' at ANS 
this November.  If I deliver my 'Constants of the Motion Paper' at the Navel 
Weapons lab this November.  I plan to do both.  If Hal Fox publishes it.  I 
believe its in press.  If Miley can hold up and persevere against intense 
opposition.  2 years for thermal energy, five years for electrical energy, 5 
years for economical element synthesis,  7 years for efficient 
gravitomagnetic propulsion systems. 

What will it take,  Credibility, money, and people.  I already know what to 
do.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 09:16:24 2000
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Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 09:16:33 -0700
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Hi Vince,

Excuse me if I ruffled your feathers over the Bearden document, which you
apparently choose to accept on face value. Fine. But many of us have wasted
countless hours trying to wade through this repetitive BS over the years and
have invested time and money to reproduce claims that were exaggerated at best,
fraudulent at worst.

Apparently you have also conveniently forgotten the whole episode of Bearden's
earth-shaking announcements over the "Sparky" Sweet triode and how Bearden
quietly ducked the controversy when the device couldn't be reproduced by going
into reclusion for several years. Re: Floyd Sweet and T. E. Bearden, "Utilizing
Scalar Electromagnetics to Tap Vacuum Energy" Proceedings of the 26th
Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference (IECEC '91), Boston,
Massachusetts, 1991, p. 370-375. He reemerged in the late nineties with the
Fogal transistor, another puffed-up failure bearing a striking resemblance to
the Sweet fiasco.

I assumed that you were familiar with this earlier "work" going back a decade or
so, much more of which is on Bill B's web site and a good portion of which is
word-for-word identical to text found in the new document.

Also check patent files starting in 1952. USPO # 2, 802,170 A.T. Starr and
others. You will find a string of "flux gate" patents that present essentially
the identical configuration that Bearden is here claiming as novel. Do you
dispute this? I don't have all the other patents handy but Fred Epps probably
does and I will supply them to you if you have any doubts.

VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> >  There is plenty of reworked Bearden theory here that has been gussied up to
>
> > look like government work BUT when you get right down to the actual device,
> it is
> >  nothing more than the tried and yet unproven magnetic "flux gate."
>
> What does "gussied up to look like government work" mean?

Like you're trying to justify a half million dollar grant by reworking your old
material to look new - and adding a few more PhDs to the byline.

> >but the bottom line is that one cannot patent on theory alone
>
> Hold on a second Jones, the paper reports experimental evidence.

Really? Did you find convincing evidence of OU in the paper?

> I don't see anything  "mysterious" here at all.  On page 5 of the paper
> footnote 4 clearly states "Obtained off-the-shelf as a commercial product from
>
> Honeywell".

Yes. But if you had made the discovery of the century using someone else's
previously patented device, wouldn't you at least mention the specific details
of the critical materials in the body of the test rather than a vague reference
in a footnote? And also GIVE CREDIT to the prior inventors.

> Was this "flux gate" you mention ever proved experimentally?

Precisely my point. I personally spent way too much time and money trying it, as
did untold others. The problem with theses things is that nobody likes to report
failures, so if someone reports a success and 20 others can't duplicate it, then
only the original report stays in print (or continues to circulate on the web.)

Again, I would repeat my previous statement

> >  This quick note is just an "off the cuff" first shot - and I HOPE to be
> proven wrong (that is, if true OU has been demonstrated....

But forgetting the source of promising information and taking it on face value,
as you have chosen to do, is a big mistake.

> Most of us?  Speak for thyself sir.

Again, sorry if my comments offended you, but it would be nice to  see something
more substantive in Colonel Bearden's defense than some kind of misplaced
admiration based upon his showy writing style - and on what can be easily
mistaken for extraordinary insight.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 10:21:26 2000
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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 12:17:05 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom
 Bearden
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>In a message dated 10/5/00 11:40:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>JNaudin509 aol.com writes:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>>  I have just received an email from Tom Bearden himself about :
>>
>>  ***** A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER ******* MUST BE READ ********
>>
>>  <<  As you are aware, this one works beautifully and produces COP=5.0.  Our
>>    patent application has been filed and so full patent coverage is
>retained;
>>
>>  >>
>
>I downloaded and have just finished reading this paper.  If this pans
>out...WOW!!
>A no fuel source of  BIG power.  The implications are mind boggling.

***{Here are the implications: big oil will buy up the patent for, say, $50
million. Then they will toss it in a box somewhere, issue a fake "study"
indicating that the process is "impractical," and thereafter we won't hear
a word about it except on those few occasions when they sue someone for
trying to "infringe" their patent by actually producing the device.

Why will they do that? Simple: any real technology of the sort you describe
will instantly revalue all of their existing capital equipment--refineries,
tankers, drilling rigs, underground reserves, service stations, political
connections in the EPA, the DOE, etc., to zero. Result: as soon as the
banks see the resale value of their collateral fall below 80% of the money
loaned against it, they will call the loans, and big oil will go bust.

What makes it possible kill a technology by buying a patent and tossing it
in a box? Simple: the patent laws have been written with that explicit
possibility in mind. Like everything else put together by politically
connected fascist scum in smoke filled rooms, purposes are served that are
not apparent to a superficial appraisal. In this case, the key detail is
this: under the patent and copyright laws, as written, the patent holder is
entitled not merely to *reasonable royalties* from those who manufacture
the physical embodiment of his intellectual creation, *but also to
determine who can and cannot manufacture it.* Result: the holder of a
patent or copyright can, if he chooses, *kill* a "disruptive" technology,
book, work of art, etc., and it is *absolutely routine* for them to do so.

Nor can the fascist system be defeated by an inventor who refuses to turn
his patents over and cooperate with the cartel. For in that case, they will
do to him what they did to Burnelli: use their political connections to get
the technology declared "unsafe," or to classify it "top secret," or one of
a thousand other things that a fascist government has the power to do.

Bottom line: as long as the majority of the population believes that the
government needs the power to violate property rights "in the public
interest," we are all thoroughly and inescapably fucked. It is as simple as
that.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Thanks to Jean Louis for posting this.
>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>  Las Vegas Nevada
>  702-254-2122
>  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
>  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow
>Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 13:47:05 2000
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Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:51:24 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom
 Bearden
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On 7 Oct 2000, at 12:17, Mitchell Jones wrote:


> ***{Here are the implications:

<Snip a typical ***{MJ}*** paranoid political rant with obligatory use 
of the word "fascist">

> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 

I for one don't care periodically to read another repeat of your 
political views. Why don't you keep that stuff on vortexb where you 
know it belongs.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 15:09:30 2000
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Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:17:59 -0700
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Lynn Kurtz wrote:
> 
> On 7 Oct 2000, at 12:17, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> > ***{Here are the implications:
> 
> <Snip a typical ***{MJ}*** paranoid political rant with obligatory use
> of the word "fascist">
> 
> > --Mitchell Jones}***
> >
> 
> I for one don't care periodically to read another repeat of your
> political views. Why don't you keep that stuff on vortexb where you
> know it belongs.

Because noone there comments on it.   ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 18:10:15 2000
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Subject: Re: Antigravity via Hot Air
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This is what happens when Washington loses the it's monopoly on Hot Air.

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/07/balloon.fiesta/index.html

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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C03091.AE2F4AE0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 19:35:29 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <9d.bab8318.27113701 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:33:37 EDT
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/7/00 10:21:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> >A no fuel source of  BIG power.  The implications are mind boggling.
>  
>  ***{Here are the implications: big oil will buy up the patent for, say, $50
>  million. ....<snip>

That's a kind of pessimistic view Mitch especially now that it has been made 
public.
What's to stop you or me (read anybody) from building their own MEG?  It 
appears from reading the paper to be quite simple. Did you read the paper?
Lets talk about the DEVICE,  not what big oil might do. 

   <ssnip useless MJ rantings>

 
>  
>  --Mitchell Jones}***
>

I really want to try and build this device and from first look, may be doable.
What do you think?  Forget the cartels for the moment.  


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 19:55:38 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:54:10 EDT
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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Anyone out there have an e-mail contact for Dr. Tom Bearden?

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  7 22:45:02 2000
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 00:42:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom
  Bearden
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>On 7 Oct 2000, at 12:17, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>
>> ***{Here are the implications:
>
><Snip a typical ***{MJ}*** paranoid political rant with obligatory use
>of the word "fascist">
>
>> --Mitchell Jones}***
>>
>
>I for one don't care periodically to read another repeat of your
>political views. Why don't you keep that stuff on vortexb where you
>know it belongs.

***{I don't know that at all. There is a long tradition on this group of
discussing not merely the details of experiments that seem to be producing
anomalous results, but also the broader context of unorthodox science. That
specifically includes philosophy-of-science misconceptions, desires to
protect funding sources, and other motivations that lead people to reject
anomalous results and even to attempt their suppression. There is little
difference, in my view, between discussing why the hot fusion people hate
cold fusion, and discussing why the human predators at the top levels of
the major energy companies will move to suppress such a technology, if it
begins to look like it is for real.

Why, then, did the Burnelli and whirlpower discussions recently get moved?
In my view, the reason the Burnelli discussion got moved to vortexb-l was
not so much that it was out of the range of the topics that had been
discussed here in the past, as because the discussion became heated, with
personal accusations flying back and forth. And the same for the
"whirlpower" discussion: it, too, fell within the range of topics that had
been discussed here in the past, but when it began to heat up, Bill moved
it.

As to whether the present thread will become heated, only time will tell.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 02:07:44 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mean free path (correction #2)
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At 7:08 PM 9/27/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Can someone tell me the formula for calculating the mean free path of a
>particle of one size, in a volume filled with particles of different sizes?
>(I.e. a mixture of two different particle types, e.g. two different noble
>gasses).

At 1:22 PM 10/8/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>....how can you add an r^2 term to a term with (R+r)^2 in the denominator?
>[snip]

By making a typo!  I will repeat the whole solution below for the sake of
completeness.

This is not from a reference, but it makes common sense that if the radii
are r and R, that the mean free path would be calculated based on a radius
of (R + r)/2, because, ideally, a collison results when the two particles
are at separation R + r, which does not differ from a separation of 2 (R +
r)/2. This applies only for collisions of mixed types.

In a mixture of 2 noble gasses there would be 3 collision types,
small-small, small-large, and large-large.  If the relative concentrations
are p for large and q for small, where p + q = 1, then the probability of a
small-small collision is q^2, the probability of a large-large collision is
p^2, and thus the remaining probability of a mixed collision is (1 - p^2 -
q^2).  Let n' = N/V be the number of particles N per volume V, and

   k = (4 Pi 2^0.5)                                   (1)

The mean free path L is given by:

   L = V/(k r^2 N)                                   (2)

and is related to the collision cross section sigma by:

  1/(sigma L) = N/V                                   (3)

so sigma is provided by:

   sigma = (V/N) 1/L = (V/N) (k r^2 N)/V = k r^2          (4)

and

  L = (V/N) (1/sigma)                                   (5)

Cross sections can be weighted-averaged based on particle density.  So,
applying (4) for a small particle of radius r:

  sigma_r = k r^2                                   (6)

and, applying (4) for a small particle of radius (r+R)/2:

  sigma_R = (k/4) (R + r)^2                                   (7)

  sigma_avg = q  k r^2 + p (k/4) (R + r)^2                  (8)

thus, substituting (8) into (5) the mean free path for a small particle is:
(9)

  L_small = (V/N) 1/(q  k r^2 + p (k/4) (R + r)^2)            (10)

Similarly the mean free path for a large particle is:

  L_large = (V/N) 1/(p  k R^2 + q (k/4) (R + r)^2)             (11)

I don't know that it makes sense to talk about an overall mean free path.

I generally cut and paste equations when substituting, which avoids some
kinds of errors, but once a typo is made it carries the mistake throughout!
I hope this is the final correction!   8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 02:27:59 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mills's Hydrino, meet Maris's Electrino
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At 3:32 AM 10/7/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Who there! :-) That's about as absurd as fractionally charged "Quarks",
>which is tantamount to having a coin without a flip side.
[snip]

Perhaps this is not so wierd if it is looked at as a wave characteristic of
the electron?  If so, I would (wrongly?) take that as confirmation that
charge IS distributed in the wave, and this is why orbital electrons do not
radiate, because their charge is not in motion.  Here is a complete
announcement:

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 501  September 7, 2000   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
Stein

CAN ELECTRONS SPLIT UP INTO SMALLER FRAGMENTS?
Thousands upon thousands of physics experiments have never
suggested that the electron is anything but an indivisible particle.
However, physicist Humphrey Maris (Brown University/Ecole
Normal Superieure, maris holley.physics.brown.edu, 401-863-
2185) proposes that a split-up of electrons into two or more
fragments would best explain decades of puzzling results in liquid
helium experiments.  In these experiments, conducted most
actively in the 1960s and 1970s, one phenomenon is well
established: Injecting an electron into liquid helium can cause a
tiny bubble (approximately 40 angstroms wide) to form around it.
Shining light on such bubbles, researchers expected the electrons
to escape and zip out of the helium.  Not only did they fail to detect
such electrons, but other experimenters observed the creation of
charged particles, never successfully identified.  Now, Maris
proposes a radical explanation: the light causes the electron to
break up into two or more pieces, which he terms "electrinos."
Fractional charge carriers have been observed before (Update 335),
but those are "quasiparticles" resulting from collective actions of
many charged particles.  In contrast, the electrinos would result
from the breakup of single electrons and act as real particles.  This
split-up, according to Maris, would arise from the quantum ability
of electrons--and all matter--to act in some situations not as
particles but as waves.  According to his picture, light causes the
bubble to oscillate in size.  Eventually, the oscillating bubble
would splinter into multiple bubbles, each carrying part of the
electron wave. Splitting up electron waves also has been
demonstrated before (Update 234), but they ordinarily recombine
and get detected as full particles.  In Maris's scenario, however, the
electron waves split up without recombining; they would be
detected as fragments of the original electron.  Why would this
phenomenon occur in liquid helium and not other systems?  Maris
says that the low-temperature helium bubbles are distinctive
electron boxes that can split up cleanly and evenly into two parts
because their superfluid properties minimize damping as they
oscillate in response to light.  However, fellow Brown physicist
Jan Tauc (401-863-2318) contends that even in this liquid helium
environment, a split-up of electrons would be precluded by
standard quantum-mechanical effects.  (Specifically, entanglement
of the multiple electron waves would ultimately ensure the
emergence of whole electrons, Tauc says.) But what about the
unidentified charged particles?  Gary Ihas (U. Florida, 352-392-
9244) says that mundane explanations have yet to be ruled out; for
example, the charged species may be ions made, in part, from
impurities in the helium.   Still, respected liquid helium veteran
Peter McClintock (Univ. of Lancaster, 011-44-1524-593073)
shares others' views when he says that the theory is "Extremely
interesting...the ideas have to be taken seriously." All expect that
more experiments will decide the issue.  (Maris, Journal of Low
Temperature Physics, 1 Aug 2000; Select Articles.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 08:42:27 2000
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> Anyone out there have an e-mail contact for Dr. Tom Bearden?

I think his current address is:

TEBearden ix.netcom.com

but he can also be reached through:

Bearden hsv.com

which is the Huntsville (Ala.) Virtual Times which publishes some of his
work.

He once used:

TEBearden aol.com

BTW, he is a retired Lt. Col. and has one or two MS degrees; but, I
don't think he has achieved his PhD.

Regards,
Terry

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Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/8/00 8:42:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
commengr bellsouth.net writes:

> BTW, he is a retired Lt. Col. and has one or two MS degrees; but, I
>  don't think he has achieved his PhD.
>  
>  Regards,
>  Terry

Thanks for the reply Terry. As regards to the honorarium, he lists
himself on the first page of his MED paper 
as Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D.


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 09:17:18 2000
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Oct. 8, 2,000

Vortex,

Maris's article in the Journal of Low Temperature Physics Volume 120,
Nos. 3/4 published by Kluwer Academic/Plenum is titled:
"On the Fission of Elementary Particles and the Evidence for Fractional
Electrons in Liquid Helium." (173). Funny thing is, it is not yet
available for ordering online from their website
<<http://www.wkap.nl/journalhome.htm/0022-2291>>  although supposedly
published August 1, 2,000.

Brown University has a bio on Maris who is on the faculty. He has done
research in various parts of the world including University of Tokyo and
Hokkaido (a 'hot bed' of cold fusion research. : ) ).
There is an earlier article published which seems related to the latest:
"Observation of Exploding Electron Bubbles in Liquid Helium", (with J.
Classen, and C. K. Su), Phys. Rev. Lett. 77, 2006 (1996).

His research interests: Low temperature physics, magnetic levitation,
neutrinos, nucleation, picosecond optics, ultrasonics and phonon
physics.

-AK-

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Progress in voice recognition
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 17:52:00 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:56:13 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> For example, in American English 
>the difference between "otter" and "odder" (more odd) is strictly a matter 
>of timing -- "odder" has a longer drawn out initial vowel.

I may have to upgrade my software to the new version (and get another
mic that works).

However, the above quoted statement is wrong.  The difference between
the words isn't timing, it's the voicing. "T" is non-voiced and "d" is
voiced -- that is, when you say a "t" (say one now) your voice isn't
turned on, but with a "d" it is.

(Then there's the pronounciation of "ought to" by some people, who
make it sound like "otter."  I wonder if the program can learn the
difference?)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 11:34:40 2000
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/8/00 8:42:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> commengr bellsouth.net writes:
> 
> > BTW, he is a retired Lt. Col. and has one or two MS degrees; but, I
> >  don't think he has achieved his PhD.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >  Terry
> 
> Thanks for the reply Terry. As regards to the honorarium, he lists
> himself on the first page of his MED paper
> as Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D.

That must be a fairly recent achievement.  I wonder which university and
what his dissertation was about.

I'll see if I can find out.

Thanks,
Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 11:45:05 2000
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:36:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom
 Bearden
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>In a message dated 10/7/00 10:21:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
>> >A no fuel source of  BIG power.  The implications are mind boggling.
>>
>>  ***{Here are the implications: big oil will buy up the patent for, say, $50
>>  million. ....<snip>
>
>That's a kind of pessimistic view Mitch especially now that it has been made
>public.
>What's to stop you or me (read anybody) from building their own MEG?  It
>appears from reading the paper to be quite simple.

***{Not to me. Show me a schematic and a specific list of parts, and I will
declare it simple to build. But all I saw in that *huge* paper was a great
mass of very complex theory, plus some rather abstract drawings of doubtful
import, and a single photo of an actual device. If you think you can
translate all that into a schematic and a list of parts, I would strongly
urge you to do so, and post it here. If it is as easy as you say, lots of
people here will probably take a shot at it. --MJ}***

Did you read the paper?

***{I looked over it, and found it to be *extremely* obscure, though I
admittedly haven't spent enough time thinking about it to be in a position
to state an opinion about it. My attitude toward these sorts of theory
intense papers is straightforward: I want to see outside replications,
before I am willing to invest much time on the theory. Theories are a dime
a dozen, while actual devices that have been specified in enough detail so
that outsiders can build them and test them out are very rare. (I am glad
to see that Jean-Louis is working on it. If anyone can reduce the paper to
a schematic and a specific list of parts, he would be the one.) --MJ}***

>Lets talk about the DEVICE,  not what big oil might do.

***{With a schematic and a specific list of parts, we will be in a position
to do that. Without them, we can only talk about the obscure theoretical
precepts of the authors. --MJ}***

>
>   <snip useless MJ rantings>

***{Vince, we are surrounded by  alligators, and it is not useless to be
aware of that state of affairs. There is no point in coming up with a
working OU device, if you are determined to pretend that the alligators do
not exist, because in that case, one of them is simply going to snap you
up. --MJ}***

>>
>>  --Mitchell Jones}***
>>
>
>I really want to try and build this device and from first look, may be doable.
>What do you think?  Forget the cartels for the moment.

***{As I said, the paper is *very* complicated. It is long on theory, and
short on specifics about how to actually construct the thing. I didn't even
see a specific product identifier for the "nanocrystalline material" which
is apparently critical to the device. Merely saying that it is sold
off-the-shelf by Honeywell is probably not enough information to enable a
person to actually buy the stuff, though I could be wrong about that.
--MJ}***

>
>
>  Regards,
>  Vince Cockeram
>  Las Vegas Nevada
>  702-254-2122
>  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
>  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow
>Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 12:44:47 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:39:42 EDT
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/8/00 11:45:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> >What's to stop you or me (read anybody) from building their own MEG?  It
>  >appears from reading the paper to be quite simple.
>  
>  ***{Not to me. Show me a schematic and a specific list of parts, and I will
>  declare it simple to build. But all I saw in that *huge* paper was a great
>  mass of very complex theory, plus some rather abstract drawings of doubtful
>  import, and a single photo of an actual device. 

Agreed Mitch. As he states that he needs independent replication he should
have included schematics. 

>  Did you read the paper?
>  
>  ***{I looked over it, and found it to be *extremely* obscure, ....<snip>

Again, I fully agree with you. I don't fully comprehend much of this at all. 
The
part about the regauging of Maxwell's equations by L.V. Lorenz and 
H.A. Lorentz was fascinating though, something I was not aware of.
If true will these two be labled scientific villans?

>  >Lets talk about the DEVICE,  not what big oil might do.
>  
>  ***{With a schematic and a specific list of parts, we will be in a position
>  to do that. Without them, we can only talk about the obscure theoretical
>  precepts of the authors. --MJ}***


>  
>  >
>  >   <snip useless MJ rantings>
>  
>  ***{Vince, we are surrounded by  alligators, and it is not useless to be
>  aware of that state of affairs. .....<snip>

Probably true but...The best alligator poison is the almost instant 
dissemination of information via the net. It was easy in the days
before electronic communication to squash ideas but not any more.
>  
>  >>
>  >>  --Mitchell Jones}***
>  >>
>  >
>  >I really want to try and build this device and from first look, may be 
> doable.
>  >What do you think?  Forget the cartels for the moment.
>  
>  ***{As I said, the paper is *very* complicated. It is long on theory, and
>  short on specifics about how to actually construct the thing. I didn't even
>  see a specific product identifier for the "nanocrystalline material" which
>  is apparently critical to the device. Merely saying that it is sold
>  off-the-shelf by Honeywell is probably not enough information to enable a
>  person to actually buy the stuff, though I could be wrong about that.
>  --MJ}***

Again I agree. I get a bit ticked off when these inventors publish novel
ideas, patent pending and all, and then fail to publish a "how to" so
the device may be replicated. He (Bearden) even states on page one,
paragraph one of the paper.... "Scientific method requires replication
and independent test and verification, ...... .  Well Dr. Bearden, how
am I (an independent researcher) supposed to replicate if
you don't publish details of the device?  Your pending patent protects
your rights to the device so how about some details like the Honeywell
product number of the nanocrystalline material, wire size and length
of the driver and pickup coils ect.

I hope Dr. Bearden is planning to release details and that possibly
they are in the works. Getting the paper public was probably a big
rush and maybe he just didn't have the time. If so I apologize for
this minor ranting.
  

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 13:10:21 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:05:05 EDT
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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In a message dated 10/8/00 8:42:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
commengr bellsouth.net writes:

Vince writes:
> > Anyone out there have an e-mail contact for Dr. Tom Bearden?

Terry replies:
>  I think his current address is:
>  TEBearden ix.netcom.com
>  but he can also be reached through:
>  Bearden hsv.com
>  which is the Huntsville (Ala.) Virtual Times which publishes some of his
>  work.
>  He once used:
>  TEBearden aol.com

I have sent an e-mail request to Dr. Bearden for details of the MEG. Lets
see what transpires. Hoping. These big cobalt magnets are warping 
space in my garage and need to be put to use. :-) 

BTW, the AOL address is no longer valid.



  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 13:41:28 2000
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Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:39:38 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Dear All,
Have any of you read the book (Return of the
Phoenix) written by Michael Mandeville describing
the periodic shift in the poles of the earth?
While I realize this is not physics or energy
production, it is a subject at least as important
as some discussed on this forum.

The assertion made by the author is that the crust
of the earth periodically shifts so that the North
and South poles move to different locations with
respect to the surface land mass.  This shift
causes massive flooding, earthquakes, volcanic
activity and climate changes.  Considerable
evidence places the last shift at 12500 years ago.
The events have been remembered down through the
ages in myth and legend by at least 500
societies.  The next shift is proposed to occur
next year!

The book gives a very scholarly and detailed
analysis of the geology, myths and predictions in
three volumes.  If the predictions are correct, I
suggest knowing what to look for before the event
can aid in personal survival.  On the other hand,
if the predictions are not correct, such efforts
taken now can be viewed as an insurance policy,
such as many applied to the Y2K potential threat.
In any case, the books provide a very interesting
lesson in how the earth behaves.

I would be very interested in getting opinions
from the very insightful people on this forum
about this subject.

Ed Storms



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 15:44:38 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 2:39 PM 10/8/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Dear All,
>Have any of you read the book (Return of the
>Phoenix) written by Michael Mandeville describing
>the periodic shift in the poles of the earth?
[snip]
>
>I would be very interested in getting opinions
>from the very insightful people on this forum
>about this subject.


It may be of interest that Michael Mandeville (at one time <mwm aa.net>)
was a long time vort!  He left vortex a few years back to gain more time to
write his book.  He was a kindly fellow who wrote many a post that I (for
one) found very interesting in spite of the fact he was not strong on
technical content.  His interests tended more toward the occult or soft
science side, but he also was involved in providing "due diligence" on some
free energy things in which I take it he had a financial interest.  He
provided some interesting reports on his trip to the pyramids in Egypt.

I have no position on his theory, except that it is well known that there
have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.  It is also known that there have
been some extreme and permanent temperature changes.  One piece of evidence
in that regard came from a frozen mammoth excavated near the arctic circle
that had frozen tropical plants in its mouth.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 18:42:51 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:35:50 EDT
Subject: Re: pole shift
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 Brought up by Ed Storms.

Here is a good link:

<A HREF="http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/links">Click here: Pole Shift 
Links                        </A> 
http://sites.netscape.net/gsussnzl/links

I read a novel back in the 70's, The Hab Theory by
Allan W Eckert. This book was so intriguing I was unable
to put the book down until I finished reading it 31 hours later!

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 19:21:40 2000
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Edmund Storms wrote:

Have any of you read the book (Return of the
Phoenix) written by Michael Mandeville describing
the periodic shift in the poles of the earth?

Horace Heffner wrote:

.. I have no position on his theory,
except that it is well known that there
have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.

It is also known that there have
been some extreme and permanent temperature changes.
One piece of evidence in that regard came from a
frozen mammoth excavated near the arctic circle
that had frozen tropical plants in its mouth.

Hi Ed and Horace,

I just downloaded and read a portion of Ch. 44 and,
I guess, all of Ch 45.  If it had not been for Ed's
comments, I would have not read as much as I did.  I
prefer this kind of thing as fiction with a good plot
and some character development.  Michael Mandeville's
frequent admiring references to Edgar Cayce were a real turn-off.

Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a 
reference for it?

Jack Smith

http://members.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/bookthree/rp3chapter45.htm


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 20:36:19 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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The original work on pole shifts was done, I believe, by Charles Hapgood and
published in two books, "The Path of the Pole", and "Maps of the Ancient Sea
Kings". I have copies of both. Hapgood's work is careful and comprehensive
and fascinating reading. Both books were out of print, but I believe that
one of them has been reprinted. Hapgood's work plays a significant part in
Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods". "Maps" contains a number of maps dated
to the 15th century whose authenticity has not been challenged. Two notable
ones are the Map of Piri Re'is and the map of Oronteus Finaeus. The latter,
date 1532, shows an accurate map of the Antarctic landmass ***beneath the
polar ice cap***. Source surveys from which the map is derived were done
***before the ice cap formed***. Details of this map have been compared to
modern surveys done by radar and acoustic soundings through the ice cap and
are found to correspond in impressive detail. All this is carefully spelled
out in "Maps".

Hapgood's evidence suggests that the crust can slide over the core of the
earth like the skin on an orange, and has done so several times, bringing
different parts of the surface landmass to the polar positions. The shifts
are relatively fast and bring global disruptions. Before the last shift, a
substantial part of the Antarctic landmass was in a temperate zone, fitting
the ancient description of Atlantis and a starting point for the Hancock's
hypothesis, which is fascinating reading in itself. Hapgood was unable to
give a plausible physical mechanism for initiating the shifts and his theory
is currently dismissed (as was tectonic plate shifts in another time).

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  8 23:06:45 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 6:18 PM 10/8/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
>was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a
>reference for it?


Sorry, I don't recall where I saw it, but the source seemed credible at the
time.  I am sure I did not see it in a Velikovsky book.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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I find it hard to imagine a mechanism that would rapidly turn the crust of
the earth with respect to the core. The liquid layer is way far down.
(Volcanic feeds are local affairs, not signs of a whole liquid layer.) This
is known from extensive analysis of seismic wave propagation. Fluids do not
propagate shear waves, so the liquid layer shows up clearly when the
seismic data from around the world are put together and analyzed to see
what waves propagate through Earth's central region. I do not see how most
of Earth's angular momentum can be changed in short order with no cause.

The magnetic poles of the earth change quasiperiodically. The history of
these changes has been documented back for 100 million years, give or take,
if my memory is still good. The method is to take cores of the oceanic
crust and measure the direction of the magnetization that froze in the
slightly magnetizable rock when it cooled below the Curie temperature
shortly after forming at a midoceanic ridge. The sample sequences from
different oceanic plates can be matched to one another and interpreted in
terms of the movement of one plate with respect to the others. This history
made the tectonic plate theory very difficult to dispute.

Earth's magnetic field flips every (I think, about) 100,000 years, Sun's
about every 11 years. Both phenomena are consequences of the same
underlying physical processes---thermally driven vertical convection cells
of electrically conducting fluid twisted by rotation. The phenomenon has
been simulated by large computer programs within the last five years, and
it is fair to say that it is now understood in broad outline. 

Rapid climate change is possible. Although many of the analytical
techniques are still under active development, it is clear that Earth's
climate has on at least some occasions changed quickly, rather than
gradually. No one hypothesis seems to be accepted yet as well supported by
evidence. I favor hypotheses in which sudden changes of atmospheric and/or
oceanic currents change the climate, because (a) we know that the currents
have important climate effects, and (b) because the currents are turbulent,
and some turbulent circulations undergo occasional sudden changes in their
pattern. Computer climate modeling is still a difficult undertaking, but it
one that is developing as rapidly as can be expected. I expect that we will
eventually understand much more about climate than we do now.

I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
ususal string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive ways,
there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years
ago is just geological yesterday.

> The assertion made by the author is that the crust
> of the earth periodically shifts so that the North
> and South poles move to different locations with
> respect to the surface land mass.  This shift
> causes massive flooding, earthquakes, volcanic
> activity and climate changes.  Considerable
> evidence places the last shift at 12500 years ago.
> The events have been remembered down through the
> ages in myth and legend by at least 500
> societies.  The next shift is proposed to occur
> next year!













=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 03:32:57 2000
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A few more possibilities.

1, A huge Electromagnetic Pulse from a Supernova. (Cygnus X3?)

2, A huge Electromagnetic Pulse from a Solar Flare.

3, A close encounter with a Superconducting Comet from the Oort Cloud.

Regards,    Frederick


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Source of the Geomagnetic Field.

 http://search.britannica.com/search?query=geomagnetic+field+

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Pole shifts over time.

 http://search.britannica.com/search?query=geomagnetic+field+reversals


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 06:59:41 2000
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 08:58:21 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>Have any of you read the book (Return of the
>Phoenix) written by Michael Mandeville describing
>the periodic shift in the poles of the earth?
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>.. I have no position on his theory,
>except that it is well known that there
>have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.
>
>It is also known that there have
>been some extreme and permanent temperature changes.
>One piece of evidence in that regard came from a
>frozen mammoth excavated near the arctic circle
>that had frozen tropical plants in its mouth.
>
>Hi Ed and Horace,
>
>I just downloaded and read a portion of Ch. 44 and,
>I guess, all of Ch 45.  If it had not been for Ed's
>comments, I would have not read as much as I did.  I
>prefer this kind of thing as fiction with a good plot
>and some character development.  Michael Mandeville's
>frequent admiring references to Edgar Cayce were a real turn-off.
>
>Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
>was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a
>reference for it?

***{I don't know about Horace, but it is my *very* strong impression that
the story came out of Soviet Russia, probably during the Stalinist era. If
it did, I wouldn't bet two cents on the part about the tropical plants. The
reason is that, during the Stalinist period, "Soviet Science" was a virtual
oxymoron. To survive, "scientists" had to figure out which conclusion would
be well received in the Kremlin, and make sure that was the conclusion they
reached. Thus Prof. Lysenko, for example, after noting that Stalin was
trying to create a "New Soviet Man," began to argue that the genes a person
passed on were determined by his life's experiences. That was what Stalin
wanted to hear, and so Lysenko's career received a big boost from "Uncle
Joe." Result: Lysenko became a towering figure in the Soviet professoriate.

Bottom line: since you literally cannot trust anything that came out of
Russia under Stalin, and very little that came out of it prior to the fall
of the Soviet Union, I would not base any important conclusions on the
"tropical plants" part of the "frozen mammoth" story.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Jack Smith
>
>http://members.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/trilogy/bookthree/rp3chapter45.htm

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>The original work on pole shifts was done, I believe, by Charles Hapgood and
>published in two books, "The Path of the Pole", and "Maps of the Ancient Sea
>Kings". I have copies of both. Hapgood's work is careful and comprehensive
>and fascinating reading. Both books were out of print, but I believe that
>one of them has been reprinted. Hapgood's work plays a significant part in
>Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods". "Maps" contains a number of maps dated
>to the 15th century whose authenticity has not been challenged. Two notable
>ones are the Map of Piri Re'is and the map of Oronteus Finaeus. The latter,
>date 1532, shows an accurate map of the Antarctic landmass ***beneath the
>polar ice cap***. Source surveys from which the map is derived were done
>***before the ice cap formed***. Details of this map have been compared to
>modern surveys done by radar and acoustic soundings through the ice cap and
>are found to correspond in impressive detail.

***{Out of the tens of thousands of maps that were drawn by cartographers
prior to the era of accurate surveying, some of them were guaranteed to be
correct due to the operation of pure chance. --MJ}***

All this is carefully spelled
>out in "Maps".
>
>Hapgood's evidence suggests that the crust can slide over the core of the
>earth like the skin on an orange, and has done so several times, bringing
>different parts of the surface landmass to the polar positions.

***{And what is the source of the incomprehensibly vast amount of energy
which that would require? --MJ}***

The shifts
>are relatively fast and bring global disruptions.

***{Indeed. The Earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere. Thus in order
for the crust to to slide over the equatorial bulge, it would have to be
ripped apart all the way down to the magma. Result: volcanic eruptions on a
scale that would exterminate every life form on Earth above the level of
bacteria. Since the geological evidence indicates that geomagnetic
reversals have been happening roughly every 540,000 years, and since
advanced life forms are still here, it follows that this theory is wrong.

Then what is the correct interpretation of the reversals? Well, some
process is required that doesn't need a lot of energy, so such things as
crust slippage, rotation of continental plates, and the supposed reversal
of fluid currents in the magma, are all ruled out. What remains? Some sort
of electrical theory seems to be required. Suppose, for example, that the
solar wind fluctuates from having a slight excess of electrons to having a
slight excess of protons, over a cycle of 540,000 years. In that case,
during the half-cycle when the solar wind is positive, the sun will have a
net negative charge. Result: in Earth's ionosphere, there will be an excess
of positive charges at high altitudes, close to the sun. Since the Earth
rotates, the effect will be that of a positive electrical current flowing
around the Earth, in the direction opposite to its rotation; and, since the
Earth's core is primarily iron, we will have a magnetic field with a
specific pole orientation. However, when the other half of the 540,000 year
solar cycle is reached, the solar wind will shift from positive to
negative; hence the sun will shift from negative to positive; hence on
Earth there will appear an excess of electrons in the ionosphere at the
point closest to the sun; hence there will now be a *negative* current
flowing around the Earth in the direction opposite to its rotation. Result:
a geomagnetic reversal with a very low energy requirement that is unlikely
to even be noticed, except by species (man and some birds) that navigate
using the Earth's magnetic field.

--Mitchell Jones}***

Before the last shift, a
>substantial part of the Antarctic landmass was in a temperate zone

***{The last geomagnetic reversal was about 700,000 years ago, whereas the
deepest Antarctic ice core samples only date back about 200,000 years. Thus
strictly on the basis of the known age of the ice, such a shuttling about
of continental land masses is not ruled out. However, there is no
geological evidence for the massave destruction that such movements would
cause, and no plausible energy source that could give rise to it.
Therefore, I think we can safely rule it out. --MJ}***

, fitting
>the ancient description of Atlantis and a starting point for the Hancock's
>hypothesis, which is fascinating reading in itself. Hapgood was unable to
>give a plausible physical mechanism for initiating the shifts and his theory
>is currently dismissed (as was tectonic plate shifts in another time).
>
>Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 07:15:31 2000
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Subject: Re: Progress in voice recognition
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

 >the difference between "otter" and "odder" (more odd) is strictly a 
matter >of timing -- "odder" has a longer drawn out initial vowel.

>I may have to upgrade my software to the new version (and get another
>mic that works).

The microphone is critical.


>However, the above quoted statement is wrong.  The difference between
>the words isn't timing, it's the voicing. "T" is non-voiced and "d" is
>voiced -- that is, when you say a "t" (say one now) your voice isn't
>turned on, but with a "d" it is.

Not in my dialect. This particular example is often cited when teaching 
first year American students of Japanese. I do not know what examples they 
use for people who distinguish d from t. Or how they teach the r sound to 
people from Boston.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:14:20 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from
  Tom Bearden
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I am sick of hearing about claims like this. Frankly, I stopped paying 
attention to them years ago. If Bearden has a MEG device that produces five 
times input, he should demonstrate it to a number of people. Since the 
machine does not look expensive were complicated to make, he should 
manufacture 10 or 20 of them and sell them too interested parties. In three 
months everyone in the world will be convinced the device is real. (I know 
that it will do no good, but if anyone here is in communication with the 
man, please pass on that suggestion.)

The notion that the oil companies or some other established entity could 
"buy up the patent" or otherwise suppress this invention is absurd. First, 
it would never occur to them. Established companies seldom respond to 
challenges until it is too late. Second, if a large company could stop a 
one-man entity, DEC would not have let itself be destroyed by Compaq and 
Dell, and the railroads would never have let Henry Ford take away their 
passenger service. The world is glutted with oil, and oil prices are at the 
lowest level in history. If Americans still paid as much for oil as they 
did in 1925 or 1935, innovations like wind power and hybrid electric 
vehicles would easily cut oil consumption in half. The oil companies could 
do nothing to prevent it. For that matter, if Americans were forced to pay 
for the pollution that oil causes, they would quickly find ways to reduce 
consumption by a huge margin. Oil transportation is subsidized: drivers 
destroy  people's health and property, and pay nothing for their 
irresponsible behavior. In an economically sane world, we would collect a 
$5 toll for every metro Atlanta commuter (collected electronically as the 
cars pass checkpoints), and we would make the MARTA trains free, and 
encourage people to telecommute.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 07:48:07 2000
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:51:37 -0400
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See the interview with Dr. Mallove on LENR at:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/20001009_xex_cold_fusion_.shtml

Terry

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

<snip>

> In an economically sane world, we would collect a
> $5 toll for every metro Atlanta commuter (collected electronically as the
> cars pass checkpoints), and we would make the MARTA trains free, and
> encourage people to telecommute.

More precisely, we have determined that breakeven occurs at about
$4.68 per trip for 250,000 trips per day (approx. the current
ridership).

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 08:45:16 2000
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:40:02 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator
  fromTom Bearden
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>More precisely, we have determined that breakeven occurs at about
>$4.68 per trip for 250,000 trips per day (approx. the current
>ridership).

You are saying it costs $1.2 million dollars per day to run the subway 
system? That's a bargain, especially if it includes long-term maintenance. 
It is cheaper than automobiles, but people do not notice the cost of 
automobiles, because it is spread around and hidden in so many places, such 
as taxes, medical bills, and higher food prices for crops destroyed by 
pollution and sprawl.

Months ago there was a debate in the newspaper about the line running to 
Roswell. Someone calculated that the cost of construction and equipment 
works out to something like $30,000 or $40,000 per passenger (I do not 
recall the exact figure), so "it would be cheaper to buy each rider a 
luxury automobile." Another newspaper reader, with a firmer grasp of 
economics, pointed out that luxury automobiles do not generally last 30 to 
50 years, and if one did last that long, and you figured the cost per trip, 
it would a bargain. 40 years daily commuting 5 days a week = 20,800 trips, 
or $2 per trip for the rolling stock and tracks. (This does not count fuel, 
employee costs, and maintenance.)

- Jed

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator fromTom Bearden

Jed wrote:
> 
> Months ago there was a debate in the newspaper about the line running to 
> Roswell.
>
Don't need it, Jed. Roswell is served by flying saucers.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 09:33:36 2000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> >More precisely, we have determined that breakeven occurs at about
> >$4.68 per trip for 250,000 trips per day (approx. the current
> >ridership).
> 
> You are saying it costs $1.2 million dollars per day to run the subway
> system? That's a bargain, especially if it includes long-term maintenance.
> It is cheaper than automobiles, but people do not notice the cost of
> automobiles, because it is spread around and hidden in so many places, such
> as taxes, medical bills, and higher food prices for crops destroyed by
> pollution and sprawl.

Yes, that's about right.  However, this does not include capital
expansions.  And less than half the operating revenue comes from
the fare box.  The rest comes from the local option sales tax in
Fulton and Dekalb counties and Fed subsidies.  Minor revenues are
obtained through advertising.

Indeed, any capital expansion is funded 20/80 from local/Fed
funds assuming Federal criteria are met.  This includes a
business case proving the expansion is cost effective.  The
primary impetus in this study is the cost of automobile pollution
and highway expansion.
 
> Months ago there was a debate in the newspaper about the line running to
> Roswell. Someone calculated that the cost of construction and equipment
> works out to something like $30,000 or $40,000 per passenger (I do not
> recall the exact figure), so "it would be cheaper to buy each rider a
> luxury automobile." Another newspaper reader, with a firmer grasp of
> economics, pointed out that luxury automobiles do not generally last 30 to
> 50 years, and if one did last that long, and you figured the cost per trip,
> it would a bargain. 40 years daily commuting 5 days a week = 20,800 trips,
> or $2 per trip for the rolling stock and tracks. (This does not count fuel,
> employee costs, and maintenance.)

Of course, first cost of the automobile accounts for only about
60% of the life cycle cost.  You factor in pollution and the
argument for the automobile becomes a joke.  

Half our present rolling stock fleet (120 of 240 cars) is 22
years old.  We are implementing a refurbishing contract which
will extend the life of those trains another 20 years.  Cost of
new trains (we have 100 on order) is about 2.5 million per car. 
Refurbishing costs are less than half that (by projection -- we
don't have the proposals in yet.)

Terry

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:38:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator  
 fromTom Bearden
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>Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>>More precisely, we have determined that breakeven occurs at about
>>$4.68 per trip for 250,000 trips per day (approx. the current
>>ridership).
>
>You are saying it costs $1.2 million dollars per day to run the subway
>system? That's a bargain, especially if it includes long-term maintenance.
>It is cheaper than automobiles, but people do not notice the cost of
>automobiles, because it is spread around and hidden in so many places, such
>as taxes, medical bills, and higher food prices for crops destroyed by
>pollution and sprawl.

***{With automobiles, you get vastly more value than you get with public
transit. An automobile will take you virtually anywhere you want to go,
whereas public transit only takes you along specific routes, and frequently
only to scheduled stops. Even worse, you give up your privacy, and your
freedom of association. You never know what disease ridden piece of human
debris occupied your seat before you, or what little crawly things he may
have left behind. You never know when a rat pack of juvenile vermin are
going to wave sharpened screwdrivers in your face and demand money, or when
some wino is going to sit next to you and puke in your lap. (Which I
actually saw happen to a woman, back during my college days.) Thus even if
the cooked books showing the superior efficienty and low cost of public
transit were true--which they never are--no sane person would prefer it to
driving his own automobile, any more than he would sleep in a flophouse in
preference to his own private home or apartment. The choice is a no
brainer. --MJ}***

>
>Months ago there was a debate in the newspaper about the line running to
>Roswell. Someone calculated that the cost of construction and equipment
>works out to something like $30,000 or $40,000 per passenger (I do not
>recall the exact figure), so "it would be cheaper to buy each rider a
>luxury automobile." Another newspaper reader, with a firmer grasp of
>economics, pointed out that luxury automobiles do not generally last 30 to
>50 years, and if one did last that long, and you figured the cost per trip,
>it would a bargain. 40 years daily commuting 5 days a week = 20,800 trips,
>or $2 per trip for the rolling stock and tracks. (This does not count fuel,
>employee costs, and maintenance.)
>
>- Jed

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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 6:18 PM 10/8/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
> 
> >Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
> >was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a
> >reference for it?
> 
> Sorry, I don't recall where I saw it, but the source seemed credible at the
> time.  I am sure I did not see it in a Velikovsky book.


Taylor,

I believe that was "Worlds in Collision", pp. 326-327.  I haven't
read it in a while.  There's a good critique at:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-velikovsky.html

We discussed these issues some time ago when Chris Tinsley was
around.  The earth's crust doesn't really have to shift on the
mantle because, if the earth were a perfect sphere, very little
energy would be required to change the axis of rotation NOT wrt
the ecliptic plane but where the axis intersects the earth.  It
is the deviation from that spheroid which creates the preferred
orientation.  However, I recall an argument once expounded by
Dean from Duh Moines regarding the melting of the ice from the
poles and how it could cause an uplifting of the Antartic land
mass causing an instability in the rotational axis' intersection
with the earth.

A second argument, which might be more likely to survive Ockham's
criterion, is presented in the book "The Coming Global
Superstorm" and better explains how a mastadon might be
masticating buttercups at the time of his freezing, IMO.

Terry

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"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:

> Hi Ed and Horace,
>
> I just downloaded and read a portion of Ch. 44 and,
> I guess, all of Ch 45.  If it had not been for Ed's
> comments, I would have not read as much as I did.  I
> prefer this kind of thing as fiction with a good plot
> and some character development.  Michael Mandeville's
> frequent admiring references to Edgar Cayce were a real turn-off.

Normally, I would agree with you and so would, I expect, Michael
Mandeville.  However, Michael asked himself the question, were any of
Cayce's other predictions, of which there are thousands, actually
correct?  After a detailed analysis, he found that Cayce was 92%
correct.  Eliminated from this list are obvious predictions and
predictions which were not clearly stated.  The result is a record which
is hard to ignore regardless of how one feels about the occult.

>
>
> Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
> was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a
> reference for it?

Actually, another Mammoth was found only a few years ago which was
described on a Nova program.

> Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> .. I have no position on his theory,
> except that it is well known that there
> have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.
>
>

Yes, and Mandeville goes into this in great detail.  Shifts in the
magnetic pole can be seen when  the residual field in rocks is
examined.  However, this does not show whether the rocks moved or the
magnetic pole moved.  The presumption is that for the magnetic pole to
shift, the spin axis of the core would have to shift, an event very hard
to justify.  Shifts in local eddy currents would not be sufficient to
cause the magnitude of the observed effect.  This leaves shifts in the
position of the rocks as the only explanation.  In addition, the rocks
are known to move slowly as the plates drift.  The question remains, can
the plates move suddenly by large amounts?  When all the evidence is
examined, as Mandeville has done, the only consistent answer is yes.
The only question remaining is when will this happen next?  If next year
is even slightly likely, we all need to pay attention because the
necessary warning will be obvious to anyone who knows what to look for.

Mike Carrell wrote:
Hapgood's evidence suggests that the crust can slide over the core of
the
earth like the skin on an orange, and has done so several times,
bringing
different parts of the surface landmass to the polar positions. The
shifts
are relatively fast and bring global disruptions. Before the last shift,
a
substantial part of the Antarctic landmass was in a temperate zone,
fitting
the ancient description of Atlantis and a starting point for the
Hancock's
hypothesis, which is fascinating reading in itself. Hapgood was unable
to
give a plausible physical mechanism for initiating the shifts and his
theory
is currently dismissed (as was tectonic plate shifts in another time).

---Mandeville acknowledges Hapgood's work and carries the idea further
along its logical path by providing a mechanism.--(EKS)

Michael Schaffer wrote:
I find it hard to imagine a mechanism that would rapidly turn the crust
of
the earth with respect to the core. The liquid layer is way far down.
(Volcanic feeds are local affairs, not signs of a whole liquid layer.)
This
is known from extensive analysis of seismic wave propagation. Fluids do
not
propagate shear waves, so the liquid layer shows up clearly when the
seismic data from around the world are put together and analyzed to see
what waves propagate through Earth's central region. I do not see how
most
of Earth's angular momentum can be changed in short order with no cause.

---The mechanism which Mandeville describes involves the gravitational
interaction between the earth,  moon and sun .  In addition, the solar
wind has a large effect.  In brief, because the earth wobbles and
because the land masses are not uniformly distributed, the gravity of
the moon and sun do not act on the earth in a uniform manner.  Indeed,
as the sun and moon line up in different ways, water and earth tides are
produced which slowly move the tectonic plates.  This much of the
mechanism is not in dispute.  The presumption is that the resulting
stress is not completely relieved by such motion and by earthquakes.
Consequently, there comes a time when only a sudden motion, propelled by
a particularly strong alignment of the moon and sun combined with a
strong solar wind, will relieve the accumulated stress between the crust
and the semiliquid layer on which it floats.  Evidence based on core
drillings in the ice caps and memory passed down through the ages are
consistent with this event happening at more or less regular intervals.
This event does not change the angular momentum of the earth's rotation.
It only changes the location of the land mass with respect to the axis
of rotation so as to reduce the amount of wobble by a small amount. The
rest of the earth, the vast majority, is unaffected.---(EKS)

I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
usual string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive
ways,
there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years

ago is just geological yesterday.

--- This is a good point which Mandeville and others have addressed.
The problem is that the effects of the great floods, which this event
implies, can be and are explained by other mechanisms.  In addition, the
ancient memories can be attributed to local events.  However, if you put
all of the information together, as Mandeville has done, the simplest
and most consistent explanation is the proposed pole shift.---(EKS)



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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 18:07:20 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:14:20 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>I am sick of hearing about claims like this. Frankly, I stopped paying 
>attention to them years ago. If Bearden has a MEG device that produces five 
>times input, he should demonstrate it to a number of people. Since the 
>machine does not look expensive were complicated to make, he should 
>manufacture 10 or 20 of them and sell them too interested parties. In three 
>months everyone in the world will be convinced the device is real. (I know 
>that it will do no good, but if anyone here is in communication with the 
>man, please pass on that suggestion.)

I fully agree.

>The notion that the oil companies or some other established entity could 
>"buy up the patent" or otherwise suppress this invention is absurd. First, 
>it would never occur to them. Established companies seldom respond to 
>challenges until it is too late. 

I'm not too sure about that.

I grew up in Minneapolis, and had several (ham radio) friends who
worked at 3M in St. Paul.

There was a "special room" at 3M that had products ready for market,
but weren't being marketted.  I can't read management's mind, but
apparently the time was "too soon" to put them on the market -- they
were selling their current production quite well and had no need to
bring out replacement products.  Most of the products were
industrial-type tapes and other things (sandpaper, etc.), but I do
recall seeing what is now called "magic tape" in that room.  At least
five years before it showed up in stores.

So, even though I doubt 3M bought up patents to suppress an invention,
they certainly delayed bringing products to market when there was no
need for the products, competitively.  (That was in the late 50's -- I
have no idea if 3M or other companies have continued the concept in
today's faster-paced market.)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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At 8:57 AM -0500 10/9/00, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>However, there is no
>geological evidence for the massave destruction that such movements would
>cause,

If the entire mantle and crust moved together over the core all at 
once and it took days or weeks to move a few hundred or a thousand 
miles, there might not be enormous destruction. Catastrophes to be 
sure, but not necessarily a complete wipe-out. It would all depend on 
the accelerations felt at the surface. If they were small, you might 
barely notice it outside of the fact that the weather goes suddenly 
crazy, the sun and stars aren't where they're supposed to be, and 
George W. gets elected president.

As to the force required, that force would only be the amount 
required to move the mass of the earth that is out-of-round, and the 
earth is extremely spherical. All the angular momentum of such a 
change would balance out. If the earth were an absolutely perfect 
sphere, a small net force acting over time could move it easily. In 
other words, convections within the core alone carry plenty of 
energy, and accasional chaotic shifts could do the trick. In other 
words, maybe now and then it just arises as a natural course of 
events. It appears to have happened on mars too.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>and no plausible energy source that could give rise to it.
>Therefore, I think we can safely rule it out. --MJ}***

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

You never know what disease ridden piece of human
>debris occupied your seat before you, or what little crawly things he may
>have left behind.

This fear is irrational and unscientific. In the last 20 years, not a 
single passenger has been killed or hurt on Atlanta's subway by accidents 
or crime as far as I know, whereas 600 people per year die in urban 
automotive accidents in Georgia (mostly in Atlanta), and thousands suffer 
grave injuries. In other words, you are saying that a system with zero 
fatalities is safer than one that has killed 10,000 people, and mangled 
hundreds of thousands.


>  You never know when a rat pack of juvenile vermin are
>going to wave sharpened screwdrivers in your face and demand money . . .

Atlanta subways are crawling with police, and every car has a call box. It 
is as safe as the Tokyo subways -- which is to say, safer than your living 
room. The crime rate is virtually zero, until you leave the stations, where 
it is the same for everyone, including people who drive downtown.


>or when
>some wino is going to sit next to you and puke in your lap. (Which I
>actually saw happen to a woman, back during my college days.)

I have seen dead bodies and mangled, bleeding people on the highways and 
streets, many times, not just in college. I would much rather have a wino 
puke on me run his car into mine at 80 mph, or knock over a telephone pole 
as one did a few years ago a block away from my house. In any case, there 
are no drunks on MARTA. The police arrest them and haul them off. I have 
seen that, too. There are many winos on the streets, but you encounter them 
after you drive downtown.

Future generations will look back on our transportation system and wonder 
how we could have been so wasteful, stupid, and destructive. We look back 
at events like the Battle of the Somme and the 19th urban plagues (which 
occurred after the germ theory and which could easily have been prevented), 
and we think our ancestors must have been barbarians, inured to death. Yet 
we casually stand by and watch an annual massacre on the scale of the 
Somme. We shrug our shoulders and say "it can't be helped .  . .  and 
besides cars are so convenient!" Any number of things could be done about 
it. The accident rate could not be reduced to zero with today's technology, 
but anyone with a little imagination and experience driving can see ways to 
cut it by a large margin.

I often say things like: "energy conservation could save billions of 
dollars" or "highway accidents could be reduced, saving tens of thousands 
of lives and a hundred billion dollars." Jaded people accuse me of being 
naive or believing in utopian schemes. But these skeptics are the 
unrealistic ones! I have history on my side.  We have already improved 
energy efficiency tremendously. There is still room for improvement: most 
machines and space heating are way above the thermodynamic limits, except 
in a few industries. We have improved transportation safety, cutting 
accident rates tremendously. Consumers will demand continued improvements, 
and more accountability. When the news broke that Firestone killed a few 
hundred people with defective tires, people all over the world were 
outraged. Someday, consumers will wake up and demand fool-proof, reliable, 
100% on-time highway transportation, as safe as today's air transport and 
subway systems.

I pass two body shops and a tow truck lot along the way to my office. Here 
is an appalling sight: look over the fence at an urban body shop the day 
after it rains. The accident rate skyrockets, the mechanics work overtime. 
It is astounding to me that in the year 2000, our transportation system is 
so frail, and so easily disrupted, that every time it rains traffic is 
backed up for an hours and MILLIONS of dollars of damage results! We are 
slaves to the elements.

Yes, there are major technical problems, and a "smart highway" would cost a 
fortune today, but incremental improvements would cost little. Automobile 
operation is hardly more automatic than it was in 1920, or 1950. We have 
only begun to apply radar, night viewing, motion sensors, GPS and computers 
to automotive applications. In some cities, automated ticketing systems 
have reduced red-light running by 90%; we could eliminate it everywhere, 
and save thousands of lives and billions of dollars. The effort would pay 
for itself in no time. High tech gadgets alone will not solve the problems, 
but gadgets combined with common sense reform and law enforcement would 
make a big difference.

- Jed

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:
>
>> Hi Ed and Horace,
>>
>> I just downloaded and read a portion of Ch. 44 and,
>> I guess, all of Ch 45.  If it had not been for Ed's
>> comments, I would have not read as much as I did.  I
>> prefer this kind of thing as fiction with a good plot
>> and some character development.  Michael Mandeville's
>> frequent admiring references to Edgar Cayce were a real turn-off.
>
>Normally, I would agree with you and so would, I expect, Michael
>Mandeville.  However, Michael asked himself the question, were any of
>Cayce's other predictions, of which there are thousands, actually
>correct?  After a detailed analysis, he found that Cayce was 92%
>correct.  Eliminated from this list are obvious predictions and
>predictions which were not clearly stated.  The result is a record which
>is hard to ignore regardless of how one feels about the occult.
>
>>
>>
>> Horace, I have read about the above mammoth -- I think it
>> was in one of Velikovsky's books.  Do you have a
>> reference for it?
>
>Actually, another Mammoth was found only a few years ago which was
>described on a Nova program.

***{Lots of them have been found in Siberia, but I am aware of only one
claim that they had tropical plants in their mouths. It has been decades
since I read that story, but it is my distinct impression that it
originated in Stalinist Russia. --MJ}***

>
>> Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>> .. I have no position on his theory,
>> except that it is well known that there
>> have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, and Mandeville goes into this in great detail.  Shifts in the
>magnetic pole can be seen when  the residual field in rocks is
>examined.  However, this does not show whether the rocks moved or the
>magnetic pole moved.  The presumption is that for the magnetic pole to
>shift, the spin axis of the core would have to shift, an event very hard
>to justify.  Shifts in local eddy currents would not be sufficient to
>cause the magnitude of the observed effect.  This leaves shifts in the
>position of the rocks as the only explanation.  In addition, the rocks
>are known to move slowly as the plates drift.  The question remains, can
>the plates move suddenly by large amounts?  When all the evidence is
>examined, as Mandeville has done, the only consistent answer is yes.

***{If the answer were yes, then we would not expect the fit between the
west coast of Africa and the east coast of central and South America to
still be good. After all, Pangaea began to split apart more than 200
million years ago, and there have been 120 geomagnetic reversals in the
last 65 million years alone. If tectonic plates were spinning around to
account for the reversals, the coastal alignment between Africa and the
Americas would have been obliterated long ago. --MJ}***

>The only question remaining is when will this happen next?  If next year
>is even slightly likely, we all need to pay attention because the
>necessary warning will be obvious to anyone who knows what to look for.
>
>Mike Carrell wrote:
>Hapgood's evidence suggests that the crust can slide over the core of
>the
>earth like the skin on an orange, and has done so several times,
>bringing
>different parts of the surface landmass to the polar positions. The
>shifts
>are relatively fast and bring global disruptions. Before the last shift,
>a
>substantial part of the Antarctic landmass was in a temperate zone,
>fitting
>the ancient description of Atlantis and a starting point for the
>Hancock's
>hypothesis, which is fascinating reading in itself. Hapgood was unable
>to
>give a plausible physical mechanism for initiating the shifts and his
>theory
>is currently dismissed (as was tectonic plate shifts in another time).
>
>---Mandeville acknowledges Hapgood's work and carries the idea further
>along its logical path by providing a mechanism.--(EKS)

***{And the energy source is? --MJ}***

>
>Michael Schaffer wrote:
>I find it hard to imagine a mechanism that would rapidly turn the crust
>of
>the earth with respect to the core. The liquid layer is way far down.
>(Volcanic feeds are local affairs, not signs of a whole liquid layer.)
>This
>is known from extensive analysis of seismic wave propagation. Fluids do
>not
>propagate shear waves, so the liquid layer shows up clearly when the
>seismic data from around the world are put together and analyzed to see
>what waves propagate through Earth's central region. I do not see how
>most
>of Earth's angular momentum can be changed in short order with no cause.
>
>---The mechanism which Mandeville describes involves the gravitational
>interaction between the earth,  moon and sun.

***{Variations in gravitational field intensity due to variations in the
relative positions of the Earth, Moon, and Sun would be many, many orders
of magnitude less than what would be required to move a continental land
mass. --MJ}***

In addition, the solar
>wind has a large effect.

***{The density of the solar wind is less than one billionth that of the
Earth's atmosphere at sea level. That would be treated as a very hard
vacuum in most terrestrial laboratories, and it *ain't hardly* going to
move the Earth's crust around. -MJ}***

In brief, because the earth wobbles and
>because the land masses are not uniformly distributed, the gravity of
>the moon and sun do not act on the earth in a uniform manner.  Indeed,
>as the sun and moon line up in different ways, water and earth tides are
>produced which slowly move the tectonic plates.  This much of the
>mechanism is not in dispute.

***{That the plates move is not in dispute. That they rotate, however, is
flatly false, as can be instantly seen by comparing the present fit between
the eastern coasts of south and central America with the western coast of
Africa. Since plate rotation is required to produce a geomagnetic reversal
if the magnetic field does not change, and since we know plate rotation
didn't happen, it follows that it is not the crust, but the magnetic field,
that moves. --MJ}***

The presumption is that the resulting
>stress is not completely relieved by such motion and by earthquakes.
>Consequently, there comes a time when only a sudden motion, propelled by
>a particularly strong alignment of the moon and sun combined with a
>strong solar wind, will relieve the accumulated stress between the crust
>and the semiliquid layer on which it floats.  Evidence based on core
>drillings in the ice caps and memory passed down through the ages

***{This is nonsense. The last geomagnetic reversal was 780,000 years ago.
(See http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/hoffman.html .) The deepest Antarctic ice
cores (vostok) go back less than half that far (see
http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/vostok.html), and if a memory was passed down,
it was from Homo erectus, one of our pre-human ancestors (see
http://sciences.homepage.com/herectus.htm), since Homo sapiens (modern man)
did not appear on Earth until roughly 50,000 years ago. (See
http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/guided/Hominid/Sect2/guid14.html.) --MJ}***

are
>consistent with this event happening at more or less regular intervals.
>This event does not change the angular momentum of the earth's rotation.
>It only changes the location of the land mass with respect to the axis
>of rotation so as to reduce the amount of wobble by a small amount. The
>rest of the earth, the vast majority, is unaffected.---(EKS)
>
>I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
>usual string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive
>ways,
>there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years
>
>ago is just geological yesterday.

***{What is the source of this number? Everything I have read has placed
the last geomagnetic reversal more than 700,000 years ago. --MJ}***

>
>--- This is a good point which Mandeville and others have addressed.
>The problem is that the effects of the great floods, which this event
>implies, can be and are explained by other mechanisms.  In addition, the
>ancient memories can be attributed to local events.  However, if you put
>all of the information together, as Mandeville has done, the simplest
>and most consistent explanation is the proposed pole shift.---(EKS)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  9 16:23:28 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF cathode material
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:44:30 +1100
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Hi,

Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: pole shift2
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Hi All,

Pole Shifts -- A subject dear to my heart.  :)

A)  First, some evidence for a physical pole shift, and not just a
"magnetic pole flip," which I'll talk about below (shame on the
physicists who think a magnetic flip is inconsequential).

1) The wooly mammoths have been mentioned.  The first "official"
mammoth was discovered in the far north of Siberia in the 1890's --
long before Stalinist science was in place.  I use the word "official"
because many mammoths had been found by ivory traders prior to this
find.

The mammoth was apparently in good health when it died, except for a
broken pelvis.  It died from suffocation, with vegetation still in
it's stomach, esophagus(sp) and mouth.  The reason the carcass and
vegetation wasn't decomposed is because it was found in permafrost --
it had been frozen since it died.

Several anomolies are connected with the mammoth.  First, the food it
was eating when it died was from a temperate, not arctic, clime.  The
amount of food available in areas of permafrost could not have
sustained a mammoth (or a herd of them).  Second, the mammoth was
somehow "flash frozen" -- which seems impossible for an animal the
size of an elephant.  (The food in it's stomach should have decomposed
before the freezing process stopped decomposition -- but it didn't.)

Of course, many mammoths, both full grown and baby, have been found
since the 1890's, as modern technology allowed better access to the
area.

In addition to the mammoths, many islands in the Arctic Ocean just off
the Siberian coast contain huge piles of mammoth bones -- some islands
seem to be made only of these bones.  This is the source of a lot of
the Old World ivory.

2)  Hundreds of miles inland from the north coast of Alaska are many
streams and rivers that flow into the Arctic Ocean and the Chukchi Sea
(west of northern Alaska).  These stream and river beds are composed
of "primordial muck" which can be up to 300 feet deep.  Shredded
trees, plants, animal bones and flesh, and ground up rocks comprise
this muck -- all mixed together in the permafrost.  The only way this
muck could have formed was from a huge tsunami crossing Alaska prior
to the muck being frozen (there are few, if any, trees and animals in
most of that area today).

3) There are many coral growths off the northern shores of Alaska,
Canada and Siberia.  Coral can last a long time, but not the millions
of years thought to be required for plate tectonics to shift the
plates from a tropical to arctic climate.

4) Steen's mountain, Oregon, has an interesting anomaly.  The mountain
is at the edge of a huge lava flow that covers parts of Oregon, Idaho
and Washington.  Since cooling lava "locks in" the Earth's magnetic
field direction at the time it cools, an investigation was made to
determine what direction the Earth's field was when the lava cooled.
A problem arose when it was discovered that the magnetic field
direction changed with depth -- from one continuous lava flow.  The
rate of change was 6 degrees per day, for at least a 10 day period --
a 60 degree change in magnetic orientation *during a massive lava
event.*  (This result was so anomalous, that the researchers repeated
the tests -- and other groups have repeated the tests -- with the same
result.  The Deccan Traps lava flow in India is now being tested.)

5) There are many other geologic indications of something quickly
happening, such as ocean beaches (marine terraces) that have been
displaced hundreds and thousands of feet, either above or below
current sea level.  Beaches can be made only with long-term ocean
levels, and won't appear with slowly changing sea levels.

Similarly, guyots (flat-topped seamounts) with attached coral reefs
are found hundreds (and reportedly thousands) of feet below sea level
-- flat-topping is possible only by sea level wave action and coral
can't grow hundreds of feet deep.  In this case the entire depth
change doesn't have to be immediate, so it's just an indicator of the
magnitude of total change.

6) Then there are the continental glaciers.  A major (to us, at least)
anomaly that hasn't yet been explained by either global
warming/cooling and plate tectonics.

The problem with trying to explain the North American glacier is that
it didn't cover the appropriate parts of North America.  The "glacier"
had ice similar in depth to that on Antarctica -- up to two miles
thick, -- centered near the southeastern edge of Hudson Bay, quite a
distance from the North Pole.  Additionally, neither Siberia nor
Alaska were ice covered, though parts of Europe were.  

The only possible explanation for the "glacier" is that is was a polar
cap.  But this explanation can't possibly fit the current paradigm of
geophysics.

B)  Magnetic pole flip.

1) The image created in most people's minds when a geophysicist talks
about a magnetic pole flip is that the Earth's magnetic poles reverse
themselves by 180 degrees periodically.  This reversal happens -- in
most people's, *including the geophysicists,* minds -- without much of
an effect on the Earth's surface.

First of all, these "flips" are only occasionally near 180 degrees,
with most being in the range of 50 to 120 degrees (I suspect the word
"flip" is used to distract from the true evidence).

Secondly, and most important, is that any change in a magnetic field
MUST BE accompanied by a corresponding change in the physical magnet
producing the field (either a change in the orientation of a permanent
magnet or a change in the electric current producing the field).  But
everyone on Vortex-l should know that, since magnetism is much
discussed here.

If the Earth's magnetic field truely does "flip" or change orientation
or strength, then there has to be a massive (putting it mildly) change
in the inside of the Earth to produce that change.  The field strength
of the Earth's magnetic field (it's a combination of 3 fields, but
that's immaterial right now) is weak at the surface, but very large.
The strongest magnetic field we can produce can't be detected over
the Earth's field at a distance of 20 miles.  Only an atomic weapon
can produce a very brief magnetic pulse that is stronger than the
Earth's field over a few hundred miles distance.

So, any changes in the Earth's magnetic field requires a literally
Earth-shaking change inside the Earth.  Also, the energy required for
such a change is large.  Much larger than the energy needed to shift
the crust of the Earth.  (The Earth's crust, being about 50 miles
thick, is much less massive than the interior of the Earth.)

As a result, my vote goes for a crust shift rather than a magnetic
change for the production of the magnetic "flip" evidence.

In conclusion, there's plenty of evidence for large scale changes to
the crust of the Earth -- a "pole shift."

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dean T. Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 4:45 PM
Subject: pole shift2

Methinks you are confusing a meteor impact catastrophe with the "pole shift".

FJS


> Hi All,
> 
> Pole Shifts -- A subject dear to my heart.  :)
> 
> A)  First, some evidence for a physical pole shift, and not just a
> "magnetic pole flip," which I'll talk about below (shame on the
> physicists who think a magnetic flip is inconsequential).
> 
> 1) The wooly mammoths have been mentioned.  The first "official"
> mammoth was discovered in the far north of Siberia in the 1890's --
> long before Stalinist science was in place.  I use the word "official"
> because many mammoths had been found by ivory traders prior to this
> find.
> 
> The mammoth was apparently in good health when it died, except for a
> broken pelvis.  It died from suffocation, with vegetation still in
> it's stomach, esophagus(sp) and mouth.  The reason the carcass and
> vegetation wasn't decomposed is because it was found in permafrost --
> it had been frozen since it died.
> 
> Several anomolies are connected with the mammoth.  First, the food it
> was eating when it died was from a temperate, not arctic, clime.  The
> amount of food available in areas of permafrost could not have
> sustained a mammoth (or a herd of them).  Second, the mammoth was
> somehow "flash frozen" -- which seems impossible for an animal the
> size of an elephant.  (The food in it's stomach should have decomposed
> before the freezing process stopped decomposition -- but it didn't.)
> 
> Of course, many mammoths, both full grown and baby, have been found
> since the 1890's, as modern technology allowed better access to the
> area.
> 
> In addition to the mammoths, many islands in the Arctic Ocean just off
> the Siberian coast contain huge piles of mammoth bones -- some islands
> seem to be made only of these bones.  This is the source of a lot of
> the Old World ivory.
> 
> 2)  Hundreds of miles inland from the north coast of Alaska are many
> streams and rivers that flow into the Arctic Ocean and the Chukchi Sea
> (west of northern Alaska).  These stream and river beds are composed
> of "primordial muck" which can be up to 300 feet deep.  Shredded
> trees, plants, animal bones and flesh, and ground up rocks comprise
> this muck -- all mixed together in the permafrost.  The only way this
> muck could have formed was from a huge tsunami crossing Alaska prior
> to the muck being frozen (there are few, if any, trees and animals in
> most of that area today).
> 
> 3) There are many coral growths off the northern shores of Alaska,
> Canada and Siberia.  Coral can last a long time, but not the millions
> of years thought to be required for plate tectonics to shift the
> plates from a tropical to arctic climate.
> 
> 4) Steen's mountain, Oregon, has an interesting anomaly.  The mountain
> is at the edge of a huge lava flow that covers parts of Oregon, Idaho
> and Washington.  Since cooling lava "locks in" the Earth's magnetic
> field direction at the time it cools, an investigation was made to
> determine what direction the Earth's field was when the lava cooled.
> A problem arose when it was discovered that the magnetic field
> direction changed with depth -- from one continuous lava flow.  The
> rate of change was 6 degrees per day, for at least a 10 day period --
> a 60 degree change in magnetic orientation *during a massive lava
> event.*  (This result was so anomalous, that the researchers repeated
> the tests -- and other groups have repeated the tests -- with the same
> result.  The Deccan Traps lava flow in India is now being tested.)
> 
> 5) There are many other geologic indications of something quickly
> happening, such as ocean beaches (marine terraces) that have been
> displaced hundreds and thousands of feet, either above or below
> current sea level.  Beaches can be made only with long-term ocean
> levels, and won't appear with slowly changing sea levels.
> 
> Similarly, guyots (flat-topped seamounts) with attached coral reefs
> are found hundreds (and reportedly thousands) of feet below sea level
> -- flat-topping is possible only by sea level wave action and coral
> can't grow hundreds of feet deep.  In this case the entire depth
> change doesn't have to be immediate, so it's just an indicator of the
> magnitude of total change.
> 
> 6) Then there are the continental glaciers.  A major (to us, at least)
> anomaly that hasn't yet been explained by either global
> warming/cooling and plate tectonics.
> 
> The problem with trying to explain the North American glacier is that
> it didn't cover the appropriate parts of North America.  The "glacier"
> had ice similar in depth to that on Antarctica -- up to two miles
> thick, -- centered near the southeastern edge of Hudson Bay, quite a
> distance from the North Pole.  Additionally, neither Siberia nor
> Alaska were ice covered, though parts of Europe were.  
> 
> The only possible explanation for the "glacier" is that is was a polar
> cap.  But this explanation can't possibly fit the current paradigm of
> geophysics.
> 
> B)  Magnetic pole flip.
> 
> 1) The image created in most people's minds when a geophysicist talks
> about a magnetic pole flip is that the Earth's magnetic poles reverse
> themselves by 180 degrees periodically.  This reversal happens -- in
> most people's, *including the geophysicists,* minds -- without much of
> an effect on the Earth's surface.
> 
> First of all, these "flips" are only occasionally near 180 degrees,
> with most being in the range of 50 to 120 degrees (I suspect the word
> "flip" is used to distract from the true evidence).
> 
> Secondly, and most important, is that any change in a magnetic field
> MUST BE accompanied by a corresponding change in the physical magnet
> producing the field (either a change in the orientation of a permanent
> magnet or a change in the electric current producing the field).  But
> everyone on Vortex-l should know that, since magnetism is much
> discussed here.
> 
> If the Earth's magnetic field truely does "flip" or change orientation
> or strength, then there has to be a massive (putting it mildly) change
> in the inside of the Earth to produce that change.  The field strength
> of the Earth's magnetic field (it's a combination of 3 fields, but
> that's immaterial right now) is weak at the surface, but very large.
> The strongest magnetic field we can produce can't be detected over
> the Earth's field at a distance of 20 miles.  Only an atomic weapon
> can produce a very brief magnetic pulse that is stronger than the
> Earth's field over a few hundred miles distance.
> 
> So, any changes in the Earth's magnetic field requires a literally
> Earth-shaking change inside the Earth.  Also, the energy required for
> such a change is large.  Much larger than the energy needed to shift
> the crust of the Earth.  (The Earth's crust, being about 50 miles
> thick, is much less massive than the interior of the Earth.)
> 
> As a result, my vote goes for a crust shift rather than a magnetic
> change for the production of the magnetic "flip" evidence.
> 
> In conclusion, there's plenty of evidence for large scale changes to
> the crust of the Earth -- a "pole shift."
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
> 
> 

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>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>***{If the answer were yes, then we would not expect the fit between the
>west coast of Africa and the east coast of central and South America to
>still be good. After all, Pangaea began to split apart more than 200
>million years ago, and there have been 120 geomagnetic reversals in the
>last 65 million years alone. If tectonic plates were spinning around to
>account for the reversals, the coastal alignment between Africa and the
>Americas would have been obliterated long ago. --MJ}***
>

The theory appears to be not that the individual plates spin with respect to 
each other, but rather that the entire surface is moved relative to the 
core.

Merlyn
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As usual, the discussion wheels about what people think Hapgood said without
consulting his books, which are admittedly hard to find. Mitchell Jones is
again jumping to conclusions:

<snip>


>
> ***{If the answer were yes, then we would not expect the fit between the
> west coast of Africa and the east coast of central and South America to
> still be good. After all, Pangaea began to split apart more than 200
> million years ago, and there have been 120 geomagnetic reversals in the
> last 65 million years alone. If tectonic plates were spinning around to
> account for the reversals, the coastal alignment between Africa and the
> Americas would have been obliterated long ago. --MJ}***

There are many puzzles to be answered. Hapgood's hypothesis does not have
"tectonic plates spinning around" but the entire crust shifting on the
earth, as if the liquid mantle could be a lubricating medium. the tectonic
plate arrangements remain intact, only their alignmetn with the axis of
rotation changes. Yes, the earth is oblate, and yes, there will be violent
upsets all over theworld, wiping out most traces of preceding civilizations.
Hapgood goes into great detail about discrepecies in the geological records,
etc., which are resolved by his hypothesis. His original work and the
hypothesis for the driving forces atrracted the favorable interest of
Einstein. Later, Hapgood was unable to sustain his argument for the drivign
force. The collection of evidence remains, however, to be understood and not
'explained' by irrelevant arguments.

Hapgood's arguments have nothing to do with Velikovsky's, except the common
theme of catastrophic events shaping history instead of a placid gradualism.
>
> >The only question remaining is when will this happen next?  If next year
> >is even slightly likely, we all need to pay attention because the
> >necessary warning will be obvious to anyone who knows what to look for.

And where will you hide? Time to leave the planet for a while. Even in
Hapgood's hypothesis the shift was not rapid on a human time scale; it took
hundreds of years, filled with a parade of geological and climatological
events of magnitude that could essentially crush the present technical
civilizations.

<snip>

> ***{And the energy source is? --MJ}***

No one knows. There is a collection of detailed evidence fitting the
hypothesis. I've ordered Mandeville's CD, the website looks interesting. One
should not be put off too much by Casey. Mandeville is attempting a broad
systhesis, which includes many elements, including Hapgood's. One looks at
the evidence, then searches for a theory. Not quite scientific to reject the
evidence because no current theory 'explains' it.

The preceding arguments make good points. There is a puzzle. It is really,
really, necessary to consult Hapgood's carefully reasoned books, filled with
the best evidence of the day, before rejecting his work.
>
> ***{That the plates move is not in dispute. That they rotate, however, is
> flatly false, as can be instantly seen by comparing the present fit
between
> the eastern coasts of south and central America with the western coast of
> Africa. Since plate rotation is required to produce a geomagnetic reversal
> if the magnetic field does not change, and since we know plate rotation
> didn't happen, it follows that it is not the crust, but the magnetic
field,
> that moves. --MJ}***

As I said above, Hapgood does not say the plates rotate independantly, but
the crust shifted a bit as a whole, retaining the relationships among the
plates except for local earthquakes and elevations.
>
> The presumption is that the resulting
> >stress is not completely relieved by such motion and by earthquakes.
> >Consequently, there comes a time when only a sudden motion, propelled by
> >a particularly strong alignment of the moon and sun combined with a
> >strong solar wind, will relieve the accumulated stress between the crust
> >and the semiliquid layer on which it floats.  Evidence based on core
> >drillings in the ice caps and memory passed down through the ages
>
> ***{This is nonsense. The last geomagnetic reversal was 780,000 years ago.
> (See http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/hoffman.html .) The deepest Antarctic ice
> cores (vostok) go back less than half that far (see
> http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/vostok.html), and if a memory was passed down,
> it was from Homo erectus, one of our pre-human ancestors (see
> http://sciences.homepage.com/herectus.htm), since Homo sapiens (modern
man)
> did not appear on Earth until roughly 50,000 years ago. (See
> http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/guided/Hominid/Sect2/guid14.html.) --MJ}***

Hapgood did not say that Antartica was last wholly in a temperate zone. Some
part of it was still in the artic zone and drillings there would see ancient
ice. As for the time homo sapiens appeared on earth, the conventional wisdom
is deeply contradicted by Cremo & Thompson's "Forbidden Archaeology", which
discusses evidence for humanoid habitation far, far into the past.

>
> are
> >consistent with this event happening at more or less regular intervals.
> >This event does not change the angular momentum of the earth's rotation.
> >It only changes the location of the land mass with respect to the axis
> >of rotation so as to reduce the amount of wobble by a small amount. The
> >rest of the earth, the vast majority, is unaffected.---(EKS)
> >
> >I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
> >usual string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive
> >ways,
> >there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years
> >
> >ago is just geological yesterday.
>
> ***{What is the source of this number? Everything I have read has placed
> the last geomagnetic reversal more than 700,000 years ago. --MJ}***

Once again, it is not a discussion of geomagnetic reversals, but of crustal
shifts. Don't keep confusing them. Once again, it is necessary to consult
the source texts and not assumptions about them.

Mike Carrell

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At 09:44 AM 10/10/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?

AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
Diamond's not.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >snip>
> >> Horace Heffner wrote:
> >>
> >> .. I have no position on his theory,
> >> except that it is well known that there
> >> have been numerous MAGNETIC pole shifts.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, and Mandeville goes into this in great detail.  Shifts in the
> >magnetic pole can be seen when  the residual field in rocks is
> >examined.  However, this does not show whether the rocks moved or the
> >magnetic pole moved.  The presumption is that for the magnetic pole to
> >shift, the spin axis of the core would have to shift, an event very hard
> >to justify.  Shifts in local eddy currents would not be sufficient to
> >cause the magnitude of the observed effect.  This leaves shifts in the
> >position of the rocks as the only explanation.  In addition, the rocks
> >are known to move slowly as the plates drift.  The question remains, can
> >the plates move suddenly by large amounts?  When all the evidence is
> >examined, as Mandeville has done, the only consistent answer is yes.
>
> ***{If the answer were yes, then we would not expect the fit between the
> west coast of Africa and the east coast of central and South America to
> still be good. After all, Pangaea began to split apart more than 200
> million years ago, and there have been 120 geomagnetic reversals in the
> last 65 million years alone. If tectonic plates were spinning around to
> account for the reversals, the coastal alignment between Africa and the
> Americas would have been obliterated long ago. --MJ}***

You are making several assumptions, the most important being that the plates
are spinning around as part of the pole shift.   It is known that the plates
are moving slowly in somewhat different directions and speeds, thereby causing
some plates to collide with other plates. This process is proposed to continue
and be accelerated.  The next shift is proposed to result when the North and
South American plates go south while the European and African plates go
north.  The relationship between South America and Africa remains the same,
they just occupy different latitudes.

>
> >The only question remaining is when will this happen next?  If next year
> >is even slightly likely, we all need to pay attention because the
> >necessary warning will be obvious to anyone who knows what to look for.
> >
> >Mike Carrell wrote:
> >Hapgood's evidence suggests that the crust can slide over the core of
> >the
> >earth like the skin on an orange, and has done so several times,
> >bringing
> >different parts of the surface landmass to the polar positions. The
> >shifts
> >are relatively fast and bring global disruptions. Before the last shift,
> >a
> >substantial part of the Antarctic landmass was in a temperate zone,
> >fitting
> >the ancient description of Atlantis and a starting point for the
> >Hancock's
> >hypothesis, which is fascinating reading in itself. Hapgood was unable
> >to
> >give a plausible physical mechanism for initiating the shifts and his
> >theory
> >is currently dismissed (as was tectonic plate shifts in another time).
> >
> >---Mandeville acknowledges Hapgood's work and carries the idea further
> >along its logical path by providing a mechanism.--(EKS)
>
> ***{And the energy source is? --MJ}***

As stated below.

> >
> >Michael Schaffer wrote:
> >I find it hard to imagine a mechanism that would rapidly turn the crust
> >of
> >the earth with respect to the core. The liquid layer is way far down.
> >(Volcanic feeds are local affairs, not signs of a whole liquid layer.)
> >This
> >is known from extensive analysis of seismic wave propagation. Fluids do
> >not
> >propagate shear waves, so the liquid layer shows up clearly when the
> >seismic data from around the world are put together and analyzed to see
> >what waves propagate through Earth's central region. I do not see how
> >most
> >of Earth's angular momentum can be changed in short order with no cause.
> >
> >---The mechanism which Mandeville describes involves the gravitational
> >interaction between the earth,  moon and sun.
>
> ***{Variations in gravitational field intensity due to variations in the
> relative positions of the Earth, Moon, and Sun would be many, many orders
> of magnitude less than what would be required to move a continental land
> mass. --MJ}***

Then what do you propose causes the plates to move, a fact which is not in
dispute? The gravity fields are known to cause the water to move and recent
measurement also show that tidal waves also exist in the land mass.  This
energy is proposed to accumulate over a long time until the stress becomes too
great.  The  next cycle of energy deposition is only the trigger, much like
that which causes the sudden shift resulting in earthquakes.

>
> In addition, the solar
> >wind has a large effect.
>
> ***{The density of the solar wind is less than one billionth that of the
> Earth's atmosphere at sea level. That would be treated as a very hard
> vacuum in most terrestrial laboratories, and it *ain't hardly* going to
> move the Earth's crust around. -MJ}***

The solar wind represents a large energy by virtue of its velocity.  When it
interacts with the magnetic field, it imparts energy to the atmosphere and to
the crust.  I have not calculated the effect, but Mandeville has and he
concludes that the effect is large during solar storms.

>
>
> In brief, because the earth wobbles and
> >because the land masses are not uniformly distributed, the gravity of
> >the moon and sun do not act on the earth in a uniform manner.  Indeed,
> >as the sun and moon line up in different ways, water and earth tides are
> >produced which slowly move the tectonic plates.  This much of the
> >mechanism is not in dispute.
>
> ***{That the plates move is not in dispute. That they rotate, however, is
> flatly false,

No one has said that they rotate. Any rotation is minor with the major effect
being a change in latitude.

> as can be instantly seen by comparing the present fit between
> the eastern coasts of south and central America with the western coast of
> Africa. Since plate rotation is required to produce a geomagnetic reversal
> if the magnetic field does not change, and since we know plate rotation
> didn't happen, it follows that it is not the crust, but the magnetic field,
> that moves. --MJ}***

Here you are making another unsupported assumption.  Plate rotation is not
required to cause the spin axis or magnetic pole to fall at a different
location on the physical surface.  In addition, the issue is not field
reversal, but a change in location on the physical surface of a magnetic field
fixed with respect to the spin axis.

>
> The presumption is that the resulting
> >stress is not completely relieved by such motion and by earthquakes.
> >Consequently, there comes a time when only a sudden motion, propelled by
> >a particularly strong alignment of the moon and sun combined with a
> >strong solar wind, will relieve the accumulated stress between the crust
> >and the semiliquid layer on which it floats.  Evidence based on core
> >drillings in the ice caps and memory passed down through the ages
>
> ***{This is nonsense. The last geomagnetic reversal was 780,000 years ago.

We are not talking about geomagnetic reversal. This is a non-issue.

>
> (See http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/hoffman.html .) The deepest Antarctic ice
> cores (vostok) go back less than half that far (see
> http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/vostok.html), and if a memory was passed down,
> it was from Homo erectus, one of our pre-human ancestors (see
> http://sciences.homepage.com/herectus.htm), since Homo sapiens (modern man)
> did not appear on Earth until roughly 50,000 years ago. (See
> http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/guided/Hominid/Sect2/guid14.html.) --MJ}***
>
> are
> >consistent with this event happening at more or less regular intervals.
> >This event does not change the angular momentum of the earth's rotation.
> >It only changes the location of the land mass with respect to the axis
> >of rotation so as to reduce the amount of wobble by a small amount. The
> >rest of the earth, the vast majority, is unaffected.---(EKS)
> >
> >I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
> >usual string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive
> >ways,
> >there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years
> >
> >ago is just geological yesterday.
>
> ***{What is the source of this number? Everything I have read has placed
> the last geomagnetic reversal more than 700,000 years ago. --MJ}***

The time of 12500 years ago is based on many  kinds of evidence including ice
cores, recorded memories, the time of the last ice age, and the statements of
Cayce, for what that is worth.  You should read the book, Mitchell, to get the
details before reaching such strong conclusions.


Regards,
Ed

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?

No, as far as I know.  Since diamond is a poor electrical
conductor, it would not make a good cathode.

Ed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF cathode material
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At 8:26 PM 10/9/0, Scott Little wrote:
>At 09:44 AM 10/10/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?
>
>AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
>Diamond's not.

Just some food for thought.  Diamond films might work OK and there is good
solid technology for making diamond films today.   Aluminum oxide is a poor
conductor, but aluminum cathodes conduct fine even though they are coated
with aluminum oxide.  Doped silicon of course conducts well, and carbon and
sililcon are both valence 4, so diamond might work very well if
appropriately doped.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: CF cathode material

Seems that graphite would be a good compromise. 

FJS


> At 8:26 PM 10/9/0, Scott Little wrote:
> >At 09:44 AM 10/10/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?
> >
> >AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
> >Diamond's not.
> 
> Just some food for thought.  Diamond films might work OK and there is good
> solid technology for making diamond films today.   Aluminum oxide is a poor
> conductor, but aluminum cathodes conduct fine even though they are coated
> with aluminum oxide.  Doped silicon of course conducts well, and carbon and
> sililcon are both valence 4, so diamond might work very well if
> appropriately doped.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

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In a message dated 10/08/2000 12:44:45 PM, Vince Cockeram wrote:

<<The part about the regauging of Maxwell's equations by L.V. Lorenz and 
H.A. Lorentz was fascinating though, something I was not aware of.
If true will these two be labled scientific villans?>>

I don't know anything abut L. V. Lorenz, but Hendrik A. Lorentz (he of the 
Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction) is regarded as one of the greatest physicists 
of all time.  Hendrik A. Lorentz was the first disciple of Maxwell himself, 
and I'd guess that both of them are frowning down from on high at this misuse 
of their great work.

<<I hope Dr. Bearden is planning to release details and that possibly
they are in the works.  Getting the paper public was probably a big
rush and maybe he just didn't have the time. If so I apologize for
this minor ranting.>>

He won't release enough detail to build the device, because if he did, then 
people would build it and quickly see that it doesn't work.  And if he does 
release the details, then he'll soon have to go into hiding again.

Bearden has had plenty of time to furnish the details.  No need to apologize 
at all.  That paper was smoothly written.  It was BS, but not a rush job.

As Vince noted in a later message, Bearden does list himself on the first 
page of the MEG paper as Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D.  Anyone signing on from an 
educational institution could check the huge file of all Ph.D. dissertations 
available at University Microfilms Inc., http://www.umi.com.  (It may be a 
different URL now, but that one will get you there.)  It would be interesting 
to know if Bearden is listed, and if he is, what his thesis topic was, when, 
and at what institution.

Tom Stolper

  

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF cathode material
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:42:57 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ut35us0a03stsueg70vkcljm7o8gcin6op 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:26:30 -0700:

>At 09:44 AM 10/10/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?
>
>AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
>Diamond's not.
Oops, guess I should have checked first. Somehow for years I have been under
the impression that diamond was a conductor. Having just gone hunting :), I
did however come across mention of diamond actually being a 5 fold better
*thermal* conductor than silver !


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: RE: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom Bearden
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Tom Stolper wrote:

>As Vince noted in a later message, Bearden does list himself on the first 
>page of the MEG paper as Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D.  Anyone signing on from an 
>educational institution could check the huge file of all Ph.D. dissertations 
>available at University Microfilms Inc., http://www.umi.com.  (It may be a 
>different URL now, but that one will get you there.)  It would be interesting 
>to know if Bearden is listed, and if he is, what his thesis topic was, when, 
>and at what institution.

Tom, I did a query there on "Bearden"  -- no citations for a Thomas Bearden there.

-Dan Quickert
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 00:39:24 2000
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Hey Rick,

I would say that before anyone gets excited about a catastrophic outcome
from a pole shift, remember that the solid iron core extends out to 1,200 km
from the Earth's center, and is surrounded by a molten "iron-nickel alloy" shell
that extends out to 3,500 km representing about 30% of the Earth's mass
of 5.98E24 kg, and still the shell around this extends out to 6,380 km and
except for geese flying south for the winter, the outer shell doesn't care
squat if the poles shift.

I  http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/Physics/maple/io/dynamo.htm

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 01:16:10 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Lab supplies
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:13:59 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I just came across this http://www.labxnews.com/labxnews230.htm and thought
some of you might find it useful.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 02:21:59 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:19:42 +1100
Organization: Improving
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References: <v01530500b606a5d79b06 [12.21.211.171]> <39E12AE5.31F2097E@centurytel.net> <v04011701b607b2040d98@[207.8.127.163]> <001601c0326e$e1e5d0a0$8f5bccd1@asus>
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Hi,

Just to add a little spice 8), two more things to consider.
1) Could a sufficiently large CME interacting with the Earth's field during
the lava outpouring at Steens Mountain have resulted in a momentary net
local field that varied rapidly while the lava was cooling, resulting in the
observed orientations?
(I.e. the Earth's own field orientation may not have changed, only the net
local field).
2) Magnetic field lines can transfer considerable momentum to the magnet
from which they derive (otherwise electric motors wouldn't work).
Is it possible that during a large CME interaction with the Earth, the
Earth's "magnet" becomes coupled to that of the Sun, resulting in a transfer
of momentum from one to the other?
(I.e. the Earth is the "rotor", and the Sun is the "stator").

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 05:31:37 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:28:33 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CF cathode material
In-Reply-To: <ut35us0a03stsueg70vkcljm7o8gcin6op 4ax.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.20001009202630.00d3bcd0 earthtech.org>
 <pfi4uskk9ld01hmpasm6s9rhvn96uhr30l 4ax.com>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Oops, guess I should have checked first. Somehow for years I have been under
>the impression that diamond was a conductor. Having just gone hunting :), I
>did however come across mention of diamond actually being a 5 fold better
>*thermal* conductor than silver !

Yes, that is surprising. Usually, good thermal conductors also conduct 
electricity easily. Diamonds are an exception. A fellow named Tibbals wants 
to make thin film CF cathodes on a diamond substrate, because he thinks the 
CF reaction produces intense local heating, and only a diamond substrate 
can cool the thin film fast enough to keep it from melting.

Diamonds are one of the most energy dense forms of chemical fuel, with many 
joules per gram, and the most joules per atom, I think. Maybe some of the 
hydrocarbons have more energy per gram, but for solid fuel, diamonds can't 
be beat. If you could manufacture them by the ton, they might make good 
rocket fuel.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 05:31:37 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:35:01 -0400
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 Bearden
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Tom Stolper wrote:
> 
> >As Vince noted in a later message, Bearden does list himself on the first
> >page of the MEG paper as Thomas E. Bearden, Ph.D.  Anyone signing on from an
> >educational institution could check the huge file of all Ph.D. dissertations
> >available at University Microfilms Inc., http://www.umi.com.  (It may be a
> >different URL now, but that one will get you there.)  It would be interesting
> >to know if Bearden is listed, and if he is, what his thesis topic was, when,
> >and at what institution.
> 
> Tom, I did a query there on "Bearden"  -- no citations for a Thomas Bearden there.

I've done quite a search also and find nothing.  Maybe it's an
honorary degree?

The latest bio I found was dated 1997 and mentioned only his MS
in NE from GaTech (like Jimmy Carter!).

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 06:06:20 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:04:27 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
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Subject: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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Here are some quotes from a New York Times article about energy. It 
describes some widespread misinformation, especially: 1. Gasoline prices 
are now at historically high levels. 2. SUVs and other heavy, high vehicles 
are safer than mid-size cars. This kind of nonsense is encouraged by 
politicians who blame recent price increases on the oil companies and OPEC, 
rather than consumers (voters).

- Jed


New York Times, October 10, 2000, "Higher Fuel Prices Do Little to Alter 
Motorists' Habits," David Leonhardt with Barbara Whitaker

When the price of oil tripled in the mid-1970's, Americans' consumption of 
gasoline fell sharply. Congress approved sweeping new rules calling for a 
doubling of the fuel efficiency of cars. . . .

Over the last two years, energy prices have tripled again, but one would 
hardly know it from looking at America's roads. Few people have sharply cut 
back on their driving or have begun shopping for cars based primarily on 
fuel efficiency, according to interviews around the country and data from 
the government and auto industry. The nation is on pace to use almost the 
same amount of gasoline as it did last year, which was the most ever. 
Sport-utility vehicles and other trucks continue to gain market share 
slowly. . . .

Certainly the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries 
has  contributed to the situation by tightening oil supplies. And  demand 
for oil has picked up elsewhere, too, particularly as  Asia's economies 
have recovered from their financial squeeze.  Yet America's underlying 
energy use has received far less  attention than the other culprits that 
the major-party nominees  for president have castigated: the United States 
government and  big oil companies.

Some 60 percent of the public reports being worried about energy  costs, 
according to the Gallup Organization. That helps explain  why both Gov. 
George W. Bush and Vice President Al Gore have  made the topic an important 
issue during the campaign's final  weeks. . . .

. . . even after rising steadily for the last 20 months gas prices remain 
significantly lower, adjusted for inflation, than they were in the 1970's 
and 1980's.

In 1980, for example, a gallon of regular unleaded gas cost over $2.50 in 
today's dollars, according to Economy.com, a consulting firm in West 
Chester, Pa.; this year, it has cost, on average, around $1.50.

This summer, Americans spent about 2.7 percent of their after-tax income on 
gasoline and fuel, Economy.com reports, and the number has not exceeded 3 
percent since the end of the 1990-91 Persian Gulf war. In the early 1980's, 
gasoline spending reached as high as 6 percent of income, over double its 
current level.

For many drivers today, spending a few extra dollars -- or even $10 or $20 
more -- when they go the pump is a small price for being in a vehicle that 
is not dwarfed by others on the road. "Driving a small car now would be 
like taking a knife to a gun fight," said Doug Johnson, who owns a small 
construction company in Austin, Tex. Mr. Johnson and his wife once drove 
Volvos, he said. Today, she drives an S.U.V.; he drives a pickup truck. "As 
much as I'd like to be more fuel conscious, I'm not going to compromise my 
kids' safety," he said. (Federal research has shown S.U.V.'s to be no safer 
for their drivers than cars, but some consumers continue to name safety as 
a reason for their appeal.)

Brenda Van Loggem, a visiting nurse who lives in Bronxville, N.Y., faces a 
decision next month when the lease on her Ford Explorer Sport expires. With 
her gas bills climbing, she said she might switch to a four- cylinder truck 
instead of the six- cylinder one she now owns. She does not expect to buy a 
car, though. "You get used to driving one of these," said Ms. Van Loggem, 
while standing in the parking lot of a Westchester County shopping mall 
last weekend. "It's nice to be high up, and I think it's safer." . . .

Americans are using roughly the same amount of gasoline that they did last 
year, and the Department of Energy projects that the number will remain 
flat or perhaps even decline slightly by the end of the year. It would be 
the first decline since 1980. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 06:14:04 2000
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: CF cathode material
>
> Seems that graphite would be a good compromise.

Graphite has been used and success was claimed.  However, graphite forms C2H2
and other hydrocarbons because of the high hydrogen activity., hence is not
stable.

Ed

>
>
> FJS
>
> > At 8:26 PM 10/9/0, Scott Little wrote:
> > >At 09:44 AM 10/10/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> > >>Hi,
> > >>
> > >>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?
> > >
> > >AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
> > >Diamond's not.
> >
> > Just some food for thought.  Diamond films might work OK and there is good
> > solid technology for making diamond films today.   Aluminum oxide is a poor
> > conductor, but aluminum cathodes conduct fine even though they are coated
> > with aluminum oxide.  Doped silicon of course conducts well, and carbon and
> > sililcon are both valence 4, so diamond might work very well if
> > appropriately doped.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Horace Heffner
> >
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 06:46:20 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF cathode material
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At 7:15 AM 10/10/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>Graphite has been used and success was claimed.  However, graphite forms C2H2
>and other hydrocarbons because of the high hydrogen activity., hence is not
>stable.


Good point!  It appeared in my electrospark experiments that sodium
metasilicate formed a high dielectric strength and very thin coating on the
electrodes. This manifested itself in the form of an increasing phase shift
due to the high capacitance of the plate surfaces, and in the form of an
increasing voltage required for spark formation.  Perhaps this coating was
a silicon form of graphite or even diamond?

I would speculate that sustained operation in a DC mode would require
inital film formation in a separate process and then that a very low
concentration of sodium metasilicate be added to the electrolyte to sustain
the film.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 7:15 AM 10/10/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>Graphite has been used and success was claimed.  However, graphite forms C2H2
>and other hydrocarbons because of the high hydrogen activity., hence is not
>stable.


Good point!  It appeared in my electrospark experiments that sodium
metasilicate formed a high dielectric strength and very thin coating on the
electrodes. This manifested itself in the form of an increasing phase shift
due to the high capacitance of the plate surfaces, and in the form of an
increasing voltage required for spark formation.  Perhaps this coating was
a silicon form of graphite or even diamond?

I would speculate that sustained operation in a DC mode would require
inital film formation in a separate process and then that a very low
concentration of sodium metasilicate be added to the electrolyte to sustain
the film.

It would also be required to periodically reverse polarity, since the
silicate would be deposited on the anode.  Polarity reversal is normally
not good, at least based on the old literature for a standard "loading"
approach to CF.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: CF cathode material
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Maybe metal coated Bucky Balls would work?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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 <39E12AE5.31F2097E centurytel.net> <v04011701b607b2040d98@[207.8.127.163]>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:13:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>As usual, the discussion wheels about what people think Hapgood said without
>consulting his books, which are admittedly hard to find. Mitchell Jones is
>again jumping to conclusions:

***{Actually, it is you who is doing the jumping--specifically: you are
jumping to the conclusion that I was talking about Hapgood. In point of
fact, all of my comments have been directed at the topics raised by Ed
Storm. I responded to your comments because, since you posted them to the
thread which Ed started, it seemed reasonable to suppose you were talking
about the same thing.

What thing? Why, this allegation that the crust of the Earth periodically
makes sudden large movements relative to the Earth's axis of rotation,
accompanied by widespread destruction, of course. This idea, it must be
emphasized, is quite different from the idea of continental drift, which
holds that continents slowly creep along, at rates of fractions of
fractions of a centimeter per year, as sea floor spreading takes place on
one side, and subduction takes place on the other, all with nothing more
than the routine and narrowly focused disturbances which we call
earthquakes. While the latter view implies that the polar axes of the Earth
change, the presumed change is gradual and for the most part unnoticeable,
rather than sudden and catastrophic.

In my view, the drift theory has been flatly proven, and the sudden shift
theory is utter nonsense.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
><snip>
>
>
>>
>> ***{If the answer were yes, then we would not expect the fit between the
>> west coast of Africa and the east coast of central and South America to
>> still be good. After all, Pangaea began to split apart more than 200
>> million years ago, and there have been 120 geomagnetic reversals in the
>> last 65 million years alone. If tectonic plates were spinning around to
>> account for the reversals, the coastal alignment between Africa and the
>> Americas would have been obliterated long ago. --MJ}***
>
>There are many puzzles to be answered. Hapgood's hypothesis does not have
>"tectonic plates spinning around" but the entire crust shifting on the
>earth, as if the liquid mantle could be a lubricating medium. the tectonic
>plate arrangements remain intact, only their alignmetn with the axis of
>rotation changes. Yes, the earth is oblate, and yes, there will be violent
>upsets all over theworld, wiping out most traces of preceding civilizations.

***{Not so fast. You are talking about splitting open the crust all the way
down to the magma, at literally millions of locations simultaneously. That
would be like millions of Karakatoa explosions taking place at the same
time, and would *vastly* more devastating to life on this planet than the
K-T impact. Such events would stick out in the  fossil record like a sore
thumb, but not to us: we wouldn't be here to look for them. However, we
*are* here, so this is clearly wrong. --MJ}***

>Hapgood goes into great detail about discrepecies in the geological records,
>etc., which are resolved by his hypothesis. His original work and the
>hypothesis for the driving forces atrracted the favorable interest of
>Einstein. Later, Hapgood was unable to sustain his argument for the drivign
>force. The collection of evidence remains, however, to be understood and not
>'explained' by irrelevant arguments.

***{It isn't irrelevant to point out that (a) there is no energy source
that could produce sudden crustal movements of the sort hypothesized, and
(b) that if such movements had taken place during man's time on Earth, we
would be extinct. --MJ}***

>
>Hapgood's arguments have nothing to do with Velikovsky's, except the common
>theme of catastrophic events shaping history instead of a placid gradualism.
>>
>> >The only question remaining is when will this happen next?  If next year
>> >is even slightly likely, we all need to pay attention because the
>> >necessary warning will be obvious to anyone who knows what to look for.
>
>And where will you hide? Time to leave the planet for a while. Even in
>Hapgood's hypothesis the shift was not rapid on a human time scale; it took
>hundreds of years, filled with a parade of geological and climatological
>events of magnitude that could essentially crush the present technical
>civilizations.
>
><snip>
>
>> ***{And the energy source is? --MJ}***
>
>No one knows. There is a collection of detailed evidence fitting the
>hypothesis. I've ordered Mandeville's CD, the website looks interesting. One
>should not be put off too much by Casey. Mandeville is attempting a broad
>systhesis, which includes many elements, including Hapgood's. One looks at
>the evidence, then searches for a theory. Not quite scientific to reject the
>evidence because no current theory 'explains' it.

***{Would you say that to a person who rejected a claim that witches ride
brooms? I think not. Why not? Because the virtue of open mindedness
*obviously* does not require us to still our tongues when faced with
apparent nonsense. If the appearance belies the fact, then someone will be
able to defend the position that we perceive as absurd, and, if we are
truly open minded, we will alter our view of the situation. There is, in
short, no conflict between open mindedness and the willingness to state
criticisms. A person who argues can be either open minded or not, depending
on whether he abandons views which he cannot defend. (Indeed, that's what
open mindedness is: the willingness to abandon views which you cannot
defend.) --MJ}***

>
>The preceding arguments make good points. There is a puzzle. It is really,
>really, necessary to consult Hapgood's carefully reasoned books, filled with
>the best evidence of the day, before rejecting his work.

***{There are too many books in the world for any one person to read all of
them. Thus we must pick and choose, on the basis of whether it seems likely
that our time will be well spent. Result: when someone recommends a book to
me, my approach is to state some obvious criticisms, and, if he gives
reasonable answers, I will consider that to be a sign that the book may be
worthwhile. --MJ}***

>>
>> ***{That the plates move is not in dispute. That they rotate, however, is
>> flatly false, as can be instantly seen by comparing the present fit
>between
>> the eastern coasts of south and central America with the western coast of
>> Africa. Since plate rotation is required to produce a geomagnetic reversal
>> if the magnetic field does not change, and since we know plate rotation
>> didn't happen, it follows that it is not the crust, but the magnetic
>field,
>> that moves. --MJ}***
>
>As I said above, Hapgood does not say the plates rotate independantly, but
>the crust shifted a bit as a whole, retaining the relationships among the
>plates except for local earthquakes and elevations.

***{A bit? That is not acceptable, because when you use such terminology,
you render this notion indistinguishable from continental drift. I am
already quite familiar with the continental drift theory, and with the
polar wanderings that have been associated with it--which are quite
well-known and precisely mapped out, by the way--and I agree with that
theory in its broad outlines. Thus if continental drift is all we are
discussing here, there isn't anything anomalous about the claim, and it
doesn't belong on this list. --MJ}***

>>
>> The presumption is that the resulting
>> >stress is not completely relieved by such motion and by earthquakes.
>> >Consequently, there comes a time when only a sudden motion, propelled by
>> >a particularly strong alignment of the moon and sun combined with a
>> >strong solar wind, will relieve the accumulated stress between the crust
>> >and the semiliquid layer on which it floats.  Evidence based on core
>> >drillings in the ice caps and memory passed down through the ages
>>
>> ***{This is nonsense. The last geomagnetic reversal was 780,000 years ago.
>> (See http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/hoffman.html .) The deepest Antarctic ice
>> cores (vostok) go back less than half that far (see
>> http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/vostok.html), and if a memory was passed down,
>> it was from Homo erectus, one of our pre-human ancestors (see
>> http://sciences.homepage.com/herectus.htm), since Homo sapiens (modern
>man)
>> did not appear on Earth until roughly 50,000 years ago. (See
>> http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/guided/Hominid/Sect2/guid14.html.) --MJ}***
>
>Hapgood did not say that Antartica was last wholly in a temperate zone. Some
>part of it was still in the artic zone and drillings there would see ancient
>ice. As for the time homo sapiens appeared on earth, the conventional wisdom
>is deeply contradicted by Cremo & Thompson's "Forbidden Archaeology", which
>discusses evidence for humanoid habitation far, far into the past.

***{Like the alleged human footprints in jurassic limestone down in Texas,
I suppose. That's just fundamentalist Christian wishful thinking, dressed
up in pseudoscientific jargon. Those tracks are far too washed out for any
reasonable person to be able to claim they were made by a human. A small
therapod dinosaur running through the mud, based on the appearance, could
just as well have made them. And, since it would be *ludicrous* to suppose
that modern humans were ambling about during those times, that is
undoubtedly what it was. (Why is it ludicrous? Because it amounts to a
denial of evolution: natural selection would have changed us into something
radically different by now, if modern man had been on the Earth 65 million
years ago. To suppose otherwise is to suppose a miracle.) --MJ}***

>
>>
>> are
>> >consistent with this event happening at more or less regular intervals.
>> >This event does not change the angular momentum of the earth's rotation.
>> >It only changes the location of the land mass with respect to the axis
>> >of rotation so as to reduce the amount of wobble by a small amount. The
>> >rest of the earth, the vast majority, is unaffected.---(EKS)
>> >
>> >I see no reason to expect Earth's crust to shift any more than by the
>> >usual string of earthquakes. If the crust did shift in such massive
>> >ways,
>> >there ought to be SOME geological evidence left. After all, 12,500 years
>> >
>> >ago is just geological yesterday.
>>
>> ***{What is the source of this number? Everything I have read has placed
>> the last geomagnetic reversal more than 700,000 years ago. --MJ}***
>
>Once again, it is not a discussion of geomagnetic reversals, but of crustal
>shifts. Don't keep confusing them. Once again, it is necessary to consult
>the source texts and not assumptions about them.

***{You cannot separate the two: when the crust moves, the geomagnetic
poles must move, because they are going to subbornly remain aligned closely
with the axis of rotation. Indeed, the well-known pattern of movement of
the geomagnetic pole flatly refutes this whole notion of large and sudden
crustal shifts. I say that because, while we do not have surviving rock of
the proper age at every position of the geomagnetic pole in the past, we do
have a large number of locations where rock of the appropriate age is
present, and examining that rock has led to a series of distinctive plots,
running back hundreds of millions of years. On those plots, there is no
evidence of sudden, catastrophic shifts. See, for example,
http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html. --MJ}***

>
>Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 09:12:32 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:03:42 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CF cathode material
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>From previous posts,

> >>Has any one tried using industrial diamond as cathode material?

> >AFAIK, a cathode material must be a decent conductor of electricity.
> Diamond's not.

> Oops, guess I should have checked first. Somehow for years I have been under
> the impression that diamond was a conductor.

Hi Robin,

If you are looking for a cold cathode emitter, as opposed to a cold fusion
cathode, industrial diamond might be an interesting material to play around with
especially when imbedded in a conductive matrix.

It turns out that conductivity is only important in cathodes to get the
electrons to the surface of the cathode. At that point good conductivity can be
an actual hindrance to emmitance and what you are looking for at the surface is
a property called "negative electron affinity." Diamond is superior in this
regard. The small crystals of industrial diamond are also sharply pointed on one
axis, another important factor for cold cathodes.  Another promising group of
materials are borides, such as lanthanum hexaboride, which are also poor
conductors but have excellent negative electron affinity. Since boron has been
implicated in a few reports as a possible active contaminant in Pd cathodes
and/or anodes, perhaps someone would be well advised to check out all of the
heavy metal borides as CF cathodes.

Here is info from Toshiba Corp.... they announced a new cathode element for
field-emission displays. The element, arranged in a 100-by-100 grid, uses a 28-V
power  source -- less than half the driver voltage required of existing
field-emission displays...
A high current cathode at only 28 volts is impressive.

Here are some other cold cathode patents, many of which call for diamond in one
form or another.

3,932,314  Kawabe, et. al.    Jan. 13, 1976
4,149,308  Smith , 1979 Method of forming an electron emitter cold cathode
4,218,633  Mirtich, 1980 Hydrogen hollow cathode ion source
4,277,293  Nelson,, 1981 Growth of synthetic diamonds having altered electrical
conductivity
4,307,507  Gray,  1981 Method of manufacturing a field-emission cathode
4,916,356  Ahern ,1990  High emissivity cold cathode ultrastructure
5,129,850  Kane, 1992  Method of making a molded field emission electron emitter
employing a diamond coating
5,141,460  Jaskie, Method of making a field emission electron source employing a
diamond coating
5,410,166  Kennel   Apr. 25, 1995
5,444,332  Chang, , 1995 Hollow - cathode electrode for high-power devices
5,493,173  Imura   1996 Field emission cold cathode and method

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 09:21:25 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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>Here are some quotes from a New York Times article about energy. It
>describes some widespread misinformation, especially: 1. Gasoline prices
>are now at historically high levels. 2. SUVs and other heavy, high vehicles
>are safer than mid-size cars. This kind of nonsense is encouraged by
>politicians who blame recent price increases on the oil companies and OPEC,
>rather than consumers (voters).
>
>- Jed
>
>
>New York Times, October 10, 2000, "Higher Fuel Prices Do Little to Alter
>Motorists' Habits," David Leonhardt with Barbara Whitaker

[early portion of statist garbage snipped]

>
>For many drivers today, spending a few extra dollars -- or even $10 or $20
>more -- when they go the pump is a small price for being in a vehicle that
>is not dwarfed by others on the road. "Driving a small car now would be
>like taking a knife to a gun fight," said Doug Johnson, who owns a small
>construction company in Austin, Tex. Mr. Johnson and his wife once drove
>Volvos, he said. Today, she drives an S.U.V.; he drives a pickup truck. "As
>much as I'd like to be more fuel conscious, I'm not going to compromise my
>kids' safety," he said. (Federal research has shown S.U.V.'s to be no safer
>for their drivers than cars, but some consumers continue to name safety as
>a reason for their appeal.

***{"Federal research" shows exactly squat. They are committed to
eliminating the private automobile and forcing us into public
transportation, because they have more power over us if we are dependent on
them for our transportation. To achieve that goal, the first step is to
render transportation via private automobile as unpleasant as possible, so
that, by comparison, the inferiority of public transportation will be less
apparent. Thus they refuse to expand the highway system, and they
proliferate red lights everywhere, to maximize congestion and accidents,
and they do their best to force us into the tiniest, most uncomfortable,
and dangerous vehicles they can.

In pursuit of that goal, they have deliberately designed their crash tests
to support the *ridiculous* conclusion that compact cars are as safe in
crashes, or even safer, than SUV's and pickups. How did they do it? Simple:
they don't crash SUV's, pickups, hummers, etc. into compact cars to collect
their "safety" data, because such tests demonstrate that a compact car is a
death trap on wheels. Instead, they crash vehicles into immovable concrete
barriers analogous to bridge abutments. The reason they do that is simple:
under those circumstances, the stiffer frames of the SUV's, pickups, etc.
result in a sudden stop which causes the passenger or test dummy to crash
into the steering wheel, dashboard, etc., with very little energy
dissipation by the vehicle. In a compact car, on the other hand, the flimsy
frame crumples up and absorbs a lot of the energy, bringing the occupants
to a gentler stop. Result: there is less damage to compact-car passengers
than to SUV and pickup passengers, in the bridge-abutment type crashes,
and, since that is the conclusion they want to reach, those are the types
of tests they do. However, in the actual vehicle-to-vehicle crashes that
comprise the vast majority of actual crashes, things are different: in
those crashes, the SUV or pickup passenger walks away without a scratch in
most cases, while the passengers in the compact car--and that includes
virtually all cars nowadays--go home in body bags. The reason: in
vehicle-to-vehicle crashes, the car is crushed like a beer can, and absorbs
virtually all of the energy of the crash, include that of the SUV or
pickup.

Bottom line: when an SUV or pickup hits a compact--Volvo's are ideal--most
of the energy of the collision is absorbed by the compact, killing its
occupants, and enabling the occupants of the SUV/pickup to escape
relatively unscathed.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[rest of statist garbage snipped]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 10:07:10 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:05 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Robin,

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:19:42 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Just to add a little spice 8), two more things to consider.
>1) Could a sufficiently large CME interacting with the Earth's field during
>the lava outpouring at Steens Mountain have resulted in a momentary net
>local field that varied rapidly while the lava was cooling, resulting in the
>observed orientations?
>(I.e. the Earth's own field orientation may not have changed, only the net
>local field).

Absolutely.  But over the course of 10 days, I'd suspect the magnetic
field direction wouldn't show a consistant change in direction due to
a solar storm from a CME.

>2) Magnetic field lines can transfer considerable momentum to the magnet
>from which they derive (otherwise electric motors wouldn't work).
>Is it possible that during a large CME interaction with the Earth, the
>Earth's "magnet" becomes coupled to that of the Sun, resulting in a transfer
>of momentum from one to the other?
>(I.e. the Earth is the "rotor", and the Sun is the "stator").

Yup.  Now you have the "driving" force for a pole shift, IMO.

Of all the forces known to affect the Earth, the only dipole or
differential "handle" on the Earth is it's magnetic field.  All other
forces are unipolar (gravity, solar radiation,  even rocks hitting the
Earth are essentially unipolar).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift2
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:16:46 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Fred,

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:07:46 -0700, "Frederick Sparber"
<fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>Methinks you are confusing a meteor impact catastrophe with the "pole shift".

In what regard?  How can a meteor impact produce a magnetic pole
"flip?"

Meteor impacts can produce tsunamis, quakes, ferocious winds, etc.
But not relocation of the crust in relation to the spin and magnetic
axis.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:50:53 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:13:06 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>>As usual, the discussion wheels about what people think Hapgood said without
>>consulting his books, which are admittedly hard to find. Mitchell Jones is
>>again jumping to conclusions:
>
>***{Actually, it is you who is doing the jumping--specifically: you are
>jumping to the conclusion that I was talking about Hapgood. In point of
>fact, all of my comments have been directed at the topics raised by Ed
>Storm. I responded to your comments because, since you posted them to the
>thread which Ed started, it seemed reasonable to suppose you were talking
>about the same thing.
>
>What thing? Why, this allegation that the crust of the Earth periodically
>makes sudden large movements relative to the Earth's axis of rotation,
>accompanied by widespread destruction, of course. 

There's no need for widespread destruction.  Figure it out.  What's
the acceleration needed to achieve a 180 degree displacement of the
crust over the interior of the Earth in, say, 48  hours?  Assume 24
hours accelerating, 24 hours decelerating.  Or pick any short time
frame you wish (long time frames -- a week or two -- will obviously
produce no acceleration noticable to any fixed object on Earth).


>This idea, it must be
>emphasized, is quite different from the idea of continental drift, which
>holds that continents slowly creep along, at rates of fractions of
>fractions of a centimeter per year, as sea floor spreading takes place on
>one side, and subduction takes place on the other, all with nothing more
>than the routine and narrowly focused disturbances which we call
>earthquakes. While the latter view implies that the polar axes of the Earth
>change, the presumed change is gradual and for the most part unnoticeable,
>rather than sudden and catastrophic.

The only noticeable change from a pole shift for people living in the
middle of continents, or in "lucky" places near a seacoast, is a
change in the sunrise/sunset and star path directions.  Yes, there'd
be an increase in earthquakes and volcanic activity.  Some places
would have large rifts open and lava would pour out.  The weather
would be bad for some time.

But the real problems would be along the seacoasts -- up to a few
hundred miles inland.  It would take some time for the ocean currents
to rearrange themselves, and during that time water would tend to
"pile up" along some coasts and go away along other coasts.

>In my view, the drift theory has been flatly proven, and the sudden shift
>theory is utter nonsense.

Of course the drift theory has been proven -- now.  But ask a
geologists 40 years ago about the drift theory (I did) and they'd say
it was utter nonsense (they did).

Interestingly, the driving force for plate tectonics has recently been
changed.  It was thought that the internal convection currents in the
aesthenosphere (the upper part of the outer mantle) "dragged" the
plates around in different directions.  When the convection currents
direction and speed were measured, that hypothesis was discarded
because these currents bore no relationship to the plate direction or
speed.  So for now, plate movement is thought to be caused by the
Earth "sucking" down the plates in the subduction zones.

However, a significant point hasn't been noted (at least in the
research papers) -- the lack of influence upon the Earth's crust by
the convection currents strongly implies that there is an almost
frictionless material between the aesthenosphere and the crust
(lithosphere).  If there was noticeable friction, the crust on some
parts of the surface would be extremely thin and very hot -- which we
don't see.

This frictionless interface would allow the crust to go slip-slidin'
away with relatively little energy input (relatively little in terms
of astronomical energies :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Hi,
>
>Just to add a little spice 8), two more things to consider.
>1) Could a sufficiently large CME interacting with the Earth's field during
>the lava outpouring at Steens Mountain have resulted in a momentary net
>local field that varied rapidly while the lava was cooling, resulting in the
>observed orientations?
>(I.e. the Earth's own field orientation may not have changed, only the net
>local field).
>2) Magnetic field lines can transfer considerable momentum to the magnet
>from which they derive (otherwise electric motors wouldn't work).
>Is it possible that during a large CME interaction with the Earth, the
>Earth's "magnet" becomes coupled to that of the Sun, resulting in a transfer
>of momentum from one to the other?
>(I.e. the Earth is the "rotor", and the Sun is the "stator").

***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 12:36:15 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:34:42 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom
 Bearden
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>Dear All,
>
>I have just received an email from Tom Bearden himself about :
>
>***** A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER ******* MUST BE READ ********
>
><<  As you are aware, this one works beautifully and produces COP=5.0.  Our
>  patent application has been filed and so full patent coverage is retained;
> >>

I looked over the paper on the MEG an found it without any doubt 100% 
pure BS.  The obvious evidence is reflected in the fact that the 
author is advocating a major revision of accepted E&M theory but 
nowhere does he give an actual mathematical expression of his new 
theory.  If someone is advocating a revision of current theory then 
he must give an expression of his replacement theory.  An example of 
this it the electrodynamics of Peter Greanau.  He gives a revised 
theory which is probably wrong but at least it is a theory.  He gives 
actual formulas which describe his revised electrodynamics.  Tom 
Bearden gives nothing in his paper but pure BS.

***** A VERY USELESS PAPER ******* NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO READ ********

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:19:14 EDT
Subject: Re: pole shift
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In a message dated 10/10/00 12:38:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> Hey Rick,
>  
>  I would say that before anyone gets excited about a catastrophic outcome
>  from a pole shift, remember that the solid iron core extends out to 1,200 
km
>  from the Earth's center, and is surrounded by a molten "iron-nickel alloy" 
> shell
>  that extends out to 3,500 km representing about 30% of the Earth's mass
>  of 5.98E24 kg, and still the shell around this extends out to 6,380 km and
>  except for geese flying south for the winter, the outer shell doesn't care
>  squat if the poles shift.
>  
>  I  http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/Physics/maple/io/dynamo.htm
>  
>  Regards,   Frederick
>  

If I may comment; The "pole shift" we are discussing here is not a shift 
of either the polar axis or the magnetic pole(s) with relation to the sun.

Both poles will shift to an observer on the earths surface as the crust
moves greased by all that white hot slippery magma.

One of the proposed mechanisms for initiating such a shift was the
accumulation of ice in Antarctica. Don't remember the reference but
the net accumulation of ice there was stated as 290 cubic miles, during
the International Geophysical Year. I don't remember what year that was.
This was proposed by an electrical engineer named 
Hugh Achinschloss Brown (sp?).
He proposed a catastrophic shift of 45 to 95 degree slide occurring
in less than 12 hours. I believe he also said the increasing Chandler
wobble number of earthquakes worldwide was the warning sign.
Catastrophic indeed! ....  a  6000 mile ride at
500 miles per hour.  Seems it would get rather windy.
 
Aside to Ed Storms; I don't think there is anyway to prepare for
such an event other than to find out the cause and then try eliminate
that cause. The oceans would slop over all the continents effectively
ending civilization in miles high tsunami's.
Try this: hold a pie tin full of water straight out at arms length, now
turn 90 degrees...do this outdoors.

I do think there is much evidence for such slides and if there is
the slightest possibility that they do occur, it would behoove
the human race to study this with a high priority.    

  

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from
  Tom Bearden
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At 03:34 PM 10/10/00 -0400, Larry Wharton wrote:

Tom Bearden gives nothing in his paper but pure BS.

>***** A VERY USELESS PAPER ******* NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO READ ********

While I am not surprised at Larry's assessment (I especially agree that 
Bearden needs to express his ideas in the form of a revised EM theory), I 
still hold out hope that Bearden's device might actually produce excess 
power.  However, upon examining his lengthy paper I see that his o-u 
measurements were made with a digital scope similar to ours.  That 
stimulated me to send this message to Bearden today:

"Hello Tom,

I am the experimentalist working with Hal Puthoff.  I have examined the 
device photos and the scope traces you presented in the online paper, "The 
Motionless Electromagnetic Generator: Extracting Energy from a Permament 
Magnet with Energy-Replenishing from the Active Vacuum".

In the course of our work here at Earthtech, I have acquired considerable 
experience in power-balance measurements.  In fact, I have employed a 
similar Tek oscilloscope (ours is a THS 720) on numerous occasions.  To be 
sure, the scope provides a reasonable result some of the time but I have 
observed it producing enormous errors on several occasions, particularly at 
moderate frequencies such as your 40 kHz signal.

You may be wondering how I KNOW when our scope is wrong...a very reasonable 
question.  This conclusion comes from comparing the scope's reported power 
to that measured by two independent methods which agree well with each 
other, (1) a water-flow calorimeter developed here at Earthtech 
(http://www.earthtech.org/vwfc/vwfc.html), and (2) our Clarke-Hess Model 
2330 Power Analyzer.

While I have not rigorously investigated the causes of the scopes errors, I 
have determined that the current measurement is usually a large part of the 
error.  I have tried measuring voltage drop across a precision 1 ohm R and 
the relatively new clip-on AC/DC current probes.  Both of these methods can 
suffer considerable errors when the frequency gets above 20 kHz.

Based upon my experience to date, Tom, I think there is a significant 
chance that your power measurements are substantially in error...yes, even 
to the point that your MEG is not over-unity.

It will not be trivial to obtain an accurate power-balance measurement on 
your MEG but we are certainly willing to give it a try.  The first thing I 
would try is the Clarke-Hess 2330.  This wonderful instrument has a long 
history of matching the results of our water-flow calorimeter on an 
incredible variety of ugly electrical signals including the notorious 
underwater arc experiments of Mizuno, et al.  If necessary, we could also 
employ our water-flow calorimeter to make an absolute measurement of the 
power dissipated in the output load resistor.

It is Earthtech policy to perform such testing free of charge.  We figure 
that the chance of getting to see a real over-unity device in action far 
outweighs the rather substantial cost of performing these tests.  So far, 
however, this investment has not paid off.

The MEG looks portable.  The prognosis for an accurate measurement will be 
best if you bring the MEG here for testing.  We've got a well-equipped lab 
with lots of measurement tools here."

Bearden knows Hal pretty well from years ago.  Hopefully he will take me up 
on the free test offer.  If so, I'll report the results here on Vortex.





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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Perhaps my should not respond to these messages from Mitchell Jones, but 
this one makes absolutely no sense, and I would like to verify my 
impression with other readers. His proposition appears to incorporate 
logical inconsistencies similar to those of gravity theories before 
Galileo; viz, if a heavy object falls faster than a light object, what 
happens when you chain a heavy object to a light object to drop them 
together? (Galileo never actually performed a test by dropping objects from 
the tower of Pisa; he prevailed when he described that 'thought 
experiment'.) Jones makes two main contradictory assertions:
Assertion 1: [people testing crashes] don't crash SUV's,
         pickups, hummers, etc. into compact cars to collect their
         "safety" data, because such tests demonstrate that a compact car
         is a death trap on wheels. Instead, they crash vehicles into
         immovable concrete barriers analogous to bridge abutments. The
         reason they do that is simple under those circumstances, the
         stiffer frames of the SUV's, pickups, etc. result in a sudden
         stop which causes the passenger or test dummy to crash into the
         steering wheel, dashboard, etc., with very little energy
         dissipation by the vehicle. In a compact car, on the other hand,
         the flimsy frame crumples up and absorbs a lot of the energy,
         bringing the occupants to a gentler stop. Result: there is less
         damage to compact-car passengers than to SUV and pickup
         passengers, in the bridge-abutment type crashes. . .

So, passengers in light cars with crash zones are safer than passengers in 
SUVs, as long as they strike concrete.
Assertion 2: However, in the actual vehicle-to-vehicle crashes
         that comprise the vast majority of actual crashes, things are
         different in those crashes, the SUV or pickup passenger walks
         away without a scratch in most cases, while the passengers in
         the compact car--and that includes virtually all cars
         nowadays--go home in body bags. The reason: in
         vehicle-to-vehicle crashes, the car is crushed like a beer can,
         and absorbs virtually all of the energy of the crash, include
         that of the SUV or pickup.

So, according to Jones there is "more energy" in a vehicle - vehicle crash, 
than a crash of a single vehicle into a wall, and furthermore the small car 
magically "absorbs virtually all the energy," and this somehow kills the 
occupants.

Okay . . . There are several logical inconsistencies and physical 
impossibilities in this scenario:

What happens when a light vehicle crashes into a stationary heavy vehicle? 
Why is this less safe than hitting a wall? Why is it any different, aside 
from the fact that the stationary heavy vehicle absorbs a little more 
energy than the wall? (Until recently, some large vehicles and SUVs had 
protruding bumpers that smashed into the passenger compartment of smaller 
cars, but this problem has been fixed, and the front and side of a late 
model SUV or light truck has more or less the same shape as a concrete wall.)

Would it be more dangerous to the light vehicle passengers if their car was 
stationary and the heavy vehicle rammed it? Or, what if we leave the light 
vehicle stationary and devise a way to ram it with a moving concrete wall? 
According to Jones' logic, if we move the wall instead of the vehicle, the 
people in the heavy car will be safer, but if we chain down the wall and 
move the car, that makes the light vehicle safer. I suppose if we move both 
car and wall that would make the two vehicles about equally safe, and 
Newton will spin in his grave.

Why doesn't the crumple zone in the light car reduce the amount of energy 
absorbed by the heavier car, too? Why will crumpling, per se, hurt anyone? 
In fact, the crumpling will not hurt the passengers in the light car unless 
the engine, hood or some other component breaks out of the crumple zone, 
through the firewall, and into the passenger compartment. Actually, if the 
motor goes anywhere, it is more likely fly out the front and whack into the 
people in the heavy car. The momentum will carry it in that direction, and 
the firewall is stronger than the radiator in every car I have seen.

In an accident between moving vehicles, there is not necessarily more 
energy than a collision with a wall. It depends upon the net speed of both 
vehicles. A light car hitting a wall at 60 mph is no worse off than a light 
car going 30 mph hitting a heavy car at 30 mph. Actually, as noted above, 
the heavy car absorbs more energy than the wall, because even heavy 
vehicles crumple, so the light vehicle will be in less danger striking the 
heavy one at 60 mph combined. The shock of deceleration will be somewhat 
greater in the small car. In other words, it will bounce back farther than 
the heavy car, but seat belts will prevent harm in both cars. The bounce 
would be the same whether one or both are moving.


Obviously, a light vehicle with less metal armor or a less absorbent 
crumple zone will not be as safe as a heavy car. However, if an automobile 
were to be engineered like a light airplane, with aluminum alloys, padding, 
and carefully engineered shapes, would be far safer than any car. The 
passenger compartment would weigh only a few hundred pounds, but it would 
easily survive 120 mph crashes. Here at Peachtree DeKalb airport, I have 
seen the remains of three air crashes, only one fatal. The aircraft were 
demolished, but the passengers were fine in two cases. The real issue is 
not heavy or light per se, it is structural integrity. When two vehicles 
are equally well engineered, and made of the same materials, the heavier 
one will be safer, but in a crash between a 2000 lb car and a 400 lb 
airframe, the people in the airframe would be far safer, assuming everyone 
wears the proper seat belts. (Four-point seatbelts in light aircraft are 
safer than 3-point automobile seatbelts, and they should replace them. They 
are beginning to be used in some European cars.) The airframe would bounce 
back a lot farther than the car, naturally, but an airframe can bounce 50 
feet, spin, or whack into another object, and the passengers can still walk 
away. Racing cars with struts in the passenger compartment and other 
structural improvements can also do this.

Unfortunately, cars made with airframe components would cost a fortune.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 13:52:39 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from
  Tom Bearden
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Scott Little wrote:

 >. . .  If necessary, we could also employ our water-flow calorimeter to
 >make an absolute measurement of the power dissipated in the
 >output load resistor.

This is not an issue, is it? If I understand correctly, the only doubt is 
in the input measurement, just as with the Ohmori - Mizuno device. 
Furthermore, if the device is outputting pure electricity at 5 times input, 
it should be a trivial matter to hook input to output and make the machine 
self sustain indefinitely, perhaps with the use of a small battery or 
capacitor. That would prove the thing is real without any instruments. It 
would end the debate instantly. I do not understand why anyone would bother 
with a scope or a Clarke-Hess analyzer, or even a voltmeter, when all you 
have to do is weigh the machine and then watch it run for some number of hours.

I hope Bearden agrees to let Earthtech test the gadget, and I hope Scott 
pushes aside his Clarke-Hess gadget asks Bearden to make the thing 
self-sustain. If Bearden cannot do this, he must have made a mistake 
somewhere. If he will not do this -- he refuses for some reason, or says it 
is impossible -- then Larry Wharton is correct and the claim is 100% pure BS.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 13:55:18 2000
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Pole Shifts
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:07:28 -0700
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To add some spice to the stew:

A basic problem with Hapgood's hypothesis is that it is a catastrophic
hypothesis, and the basic problem with all catastrophe theories is that the
are not uniformitarian, which is the prevailing, unspoken dogma of physical
science. Physical theory relies on repeatable experiments and catastrophes
are by definition not repeatable. Therefore, anyone can take a set of
observations an invent a catastrophe (or miracle) to explain them and reason
goes out the window. Catastrophes and miracles are first cousins to
conspiracy theories.

The fundamental objection to Velikovsky's hypothesis was conflict between
the planetary orbits necessary to satisfy Velikovsky's hypothesis and the
visible stability of the orbits over the last few thousand years of
observation. It boils down to estimates of damping factors in the planetary
dynamics, and assumptions (everybody knew) about what the mathematics
showed. With a low damping factor, the planetary orbits would gyrate for
millennia after the arrival of Venus and capture into a solar orbit.

Into the fray marched Robert Bass some years ago. Bass may be remembered by
readers of Vortex as a mathematician of considerable ability who discussed
cold fusion matters. Bass did an analysis of planetary dynamics using modern
mathematical techniques, which showed that the damping factors are much
higher than assumed. This cut the support from the planetary dynamics
objection to Velikovsky.

A while back I noted that someone had built a digital orrery, a specialized
computer capable of modeling the N-body problem of the planetary orbits,
taking into account the mutual gravitational interactions. One of the
interesting findings was evidence of deterministic chaos, which should
surprise no one. And one of the earmarks of deterministic chaos is extreme
sensitivity to initial conditions as well as regions of stability. Thus our
present state of stability does not preclude periods of instability in the
past, in which there could have been erratic planetary orbits, or asteroid
flybys.

What is troubling the discussion of polar shifts is the absence of
*uniformitarian* process that could drive the change. I haven't seen
Mandeville's development of Hapgood's hypothesis yet. His projections may be
wrong, but it does not follow that rare, unpredictable events in the past
may have triggered a crustal shift.

When you encounter a hypothesis which gives order to a lot of apparently
unrelated observations, it is worth paying close attention even though the
conclusion might contradict "what everyone knows".

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 14:12:07 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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Hi Ed,
I have read most of "Return of the Phoenix" and have
studied the Cayce readings over many years.
Michael Mandeville has made an excellent case for the
"pole shifts" ,past and future, predicted and described 
in the Cayce readings. As accurate as Cayce's earth change
predictions have proved to be so far, his medical readings
appear to be even more accurate. Also, his prediction of the 
discovery and content of the Dead Sea Scrolls is truly remarkable.
I think (or hope) that Michael's case for the exact timing of the
next ploe shift is not quite as strong. The general trends in
volcanic and earthquake activity as analyzed by M.M. certainly 
support Cayce's timetable in a general way, but at least one
of Cayce's major earth change predictions is now about 30 
years late. Also the general sense of the readings does not
support the possibility of accurate  timetables for future
earth changes. M.M. has done a good job gathering all the
supporting evidence in the readings for his point of view, but
other points of view are also supported by material in the
readings that M.M. has chosen not to emphasize.
In any case, the recent strange behavior of the pole position
is certainly unexpected  and the link between the position of the
inner planets, sunspot positions, and solar storms on the earth
predicted by M.M. appears to be accurate. Perhaps we should
forward the thread to M.M. and see if he wishes to answer any
of the comments?
Regards,
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 14:32:25 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from
  Tom Bearden
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At 04:51 PM 10/10/00 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

 >I hope Bearden agrees to let Earthtech test the gadget, and I hope Scott 
pushes aside his Clarke-Hess gadget asks Bearden to make the thing 
self-sustain.

Good point.  That is indeed the first thing to try.  Hal has already asked 
him about this and Bearden says they will try it soon.  I suspect that will 
save him a trip to Austin.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 14:47:21 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:45:17 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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Mitchell -

At 1:20 PM -0500 10/10/00, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
>of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
>is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
>(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
>the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
>of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
>not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
>like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
>Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***

If a fly impacted the wing of a 747 at CME velocity, perhaps it 
*would* rip the wing off (de plane, not just de fly)!

How much ripping could 10^10 tons of mass flying at that velocity do?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 15:19:54 2000
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Pole Shifts
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The earth is very nearly a sphere. A sphere has three identical moments of
inertia. Ix, Iy, Iz. The earth is slightly oblate, about 20 miles thicker
at the equator then at the poles, so Iz is slightly larger then Ix and Iy.
I am sure that these numbers are available for the earth, but I don't have
them handy. If the surface of the earth changes, such as an ice age, or
antarctica melting, these moments of inertia will also change, and to
conserve the angular momentum of the earth, the axis of rotation would
shift accordingly, so the earth would spin about its largest moment of
inertia. One of the Vortex people should get out their dynamics textbook,
and try some calculations. It appears to me that a polar shift is not
impossible in theory, but would not happen if the surface changes are not
large enough.

Hank

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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:24:14 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: SUV safety stats
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Here is another thing I forgot to mention about this crazy Jones
hypothesis. It is wrong from the get go. Accident and fatality rates are
not based on crash tests, they are based on actual reported accidents per
vehicle mile for each make and model. You can be sure the statistics are
correct, because if they were wrong, the SUV makers would be raising hell,
demanding the government revise the numbers, and writing letter to the New
York Times and other newspapers that have quoted the statistics.

I am not sure about this, but I believe I read that the higher fatality
rate for SUVs is caused by poor performance, not heavy or light
construction, or survivability. Drivers have difficulty controlling these
large vehicles, and I think some models are top heavy.

- Jed

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At 4:36 PM 10/10/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
(Mitchell Jones wrote:)

> Result: there is less
>         damage to compact-car passengers than to SUV and pickup
>         passengers, in the bridge-abutment type crashes. . .


This may or may not be true depending on the SUV.  Some have very large
engine compartments that provide crush zones.  However, the RELATIVE
difference between vehicles is small, so Mitchell is correct in that better
safety features make for less passenger damage in this case, regardless of
the size of the vehicle.



>So, according to Jones there is "more energy" in a vehicle - vehicle crash,
>than a crash of a single vehicle into a wall, and furthermore the small car
>magically "absorbs virtually all the energy," and this somehow kills the
>occupants.


Mitchell is correct here too, not only because the small guage metal
crushes like a cream pie, but also because of the amount of momentum change
absorbed by the occupants.  This is simply caused by a mass difference.
Assume the compact weighs 2000 lbs and the SUV 4000 lbs and they hit
head-on, each doing 50 mph.  The compact has -2000 x 50 lb-mi/hr  and the
SUV +4000 lb-mi/hr momentum. The net momentum of the system prior to the
accident is +2000 x 50 lb-mi/hr.  Assume they blend into single mass, thus
an inelastic collision.  The NET momentum of the system after the crash is
the same as before, but the new mass is 6000 lb, so the velocity of the
post-crash glob is 50/3 = +16.7 mi/hr. The SUV passengers suffered an
impact delta v of 33.3 mi/hr. The compact passengers experienced a delta v
of 66.7 mi/hr.  The energy ratio of the absorbed impact is (66.7/33.3) =
about 4.  The compact passengers took 4 times the beating just in terms of
energy absorbed.  However, the crush zones were designed to absorb 30 mi/hr
crashes, not the 66.7 mi/hr equivalent crash just experienced.  The engine
is probably located in the back seat of the compact at this point.

Mass elevation plays a role too.  The compact is smushed downward, crushing
or decapitating the occupants, while the higher vehicle is thrown clear,
and the SUV occupants tend to merely experience leg injury.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 15:56:00 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:54:10 EDT
Subject: pole shift
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 While the title of this link kind of turned me off there
is some info on Hugh Auchincloss Brown, who proposed 
pole shift (crustal slide). Here is an excerpt
from the URL listed below:

Hugh Auchincloss Brown (1879-1975), an electrical engineer devoted more than 
60 years of his life to the promulgation of the theory that the vast polar 
ice cap would tip the earth over in this century and wipe out civilization. 
As early as 1911, Mr. Brown became intrigued by reports that mammoths had 
been found frozen in the Arctic with buttercups still clenched between their 
teeth. This led him to conclude that every 8,000 years or so, the earth’s 
poles would shift, moving tropical regions to polar regions, and vice-versa. 

Mr. Brown’s book, Cataclysm of the Earth, expanded on his theories. Published 
in 1967, it titillated many readers, but failed to raise a great deal of 
scientific concern, in spite of Einstein’s endorsement in the forward of his 
book. His book also contained a statement, about an omen for the earth’s 
future; a wobble in the planets spin. Such a wobble is a scientific fact, 
which continues to challenge scientists seeking an explanation for it. He 
also recommended establishment of a worldwide global stabilization 
organization, and recommended that it devote 10 million dollars to study how 
effectively set off atomic blasts in the Antarctic could possibly break up 
the ice there and save the world from certain disaster. For years he 
bombarded Congress, government leaders and scientists with written proof of 
his theories. The first part of Cataclysms of the Earth is entitled "Evidence 
of Careening of the Globe." While there is not enough time to cite or 
summarize the evidence here, it is interesting to note some of the most 
dramatic examples.







<A HREF="http://plim.org/MILLENNIUM%20Article.html">Click here: MILLENNIUM 
PROPHECY                      </A> 

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 16:26:17 2000
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>
>
> Aside to Ed Storms; I don't think there is anyway to prepare for
> such an event other than to find out the cause and then try eliminate
> that cause. The oceans would slop over all the continents effectively
> ending civilization in miles high tsunami's.
> Try this: hold a pie tin full of water straight out at arms length, now
> turn 90 degrees...do this outdoors.

You might be right, Vince.  However, if the Chinese memories are to be believed,
the effect occurred over about 6 days with only the coasts being affected
directly.  People near volcanoes naturally were cooked and people near faults
were shaken up.  The rest of mankind was left without the normal infrastructure
and with a sky full of ash.  Nevertheless, a great many people survived to
repopulate the earth and to tell us about their experience.  We can hope to be
so lucky.

>
>
> I do think there is much evidence for such slides and if there is
> the slightest possibility that they do occur, it would behoove
> the human race to study this with a high priority.

Except for finding a dry, stable spot on the earth, I do not see what we can do.
Your location might be good except it would be too dry after the dams broke.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 18:38:08 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:34:42 EDT
Subject: Re: pole shift
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In a message dated 10/10/00 1:21:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
VCockeram aol.com writes:

> One of the proposed mechanisms for initiating such a shift was the
>  accumulation of ice in Antarctica. Don't remember the reference but
>  the net accumulation of ice there was stated as 290 cubic miles

That should read as: 290 cubic miles per year.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 20:10:29 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Jed, of course SUVs are top heavy compared to most other cars, it comes from 
the increased ground clearance required to navigate rugged terrain.
not that many SUV owners ever need that feature.

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 20:59:38 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:58:07 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:20:26 -0500:
[snip]
>>2) Magnetic field lines can transfer considerable momentum to the magnet
>>from which they derive (otherwise electric motors wouldn't work).
>>Is it possible that during a large CME interaction with the Earth, the
>>Earth's "magnet" becomes coupled to that of the Sun, resulting in a transfer
>>of momentum from one to the other?
>>(I.e. the Earth is the "rotor", and the Sun is the "stator").
>
>***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
>of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
>is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
>(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
>the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
>of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
>not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
>like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
>Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***

It isn't the mass of the particles comprising the CME that is relevant. It's
the accompanying magnetic field. The whole point is that the field may
directly link the Sun's field with that of the Earth, thereby directly
coupling the Earth to the Sun itself (not the particle cloud). Since the
mass of the Sun is greater than that of the Earth by many orders of
magnitude, such a transfer of (angular?) momentum would not be trivial.
[snip]


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 22:43:15 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:41:46 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Dean T. Miller's message of Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:05 GMT:
[snip]
>>1) Could a sufficiently large CME interacting with the Earth's field during
>>the lava outpouring at Steens Mountain have resulted in a momentary net
>>local field that varied rapidly while the lava was cooling, resulting in the
>>observed orientations?
>>(I.e. the Earth's own field orientation may not have changed, only the net
>>local field).
>
>Absolutely.  But over the course of 10 days, I'd suspect the magnetic
>field direction wouldn't show a consistant change in direction due to
>a solar storm from a CME.
Another possibility - could the direction of the magnetic field have been
fixed in the mineral, while it was still somewhat plastic and flowing?
I.e. could the rock itself have moved *after* the field direction became set
in the mineral?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 23:48:36 2000
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:45:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Mitchell -
>
>At 1:20 PM -0500 10/10/00, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
>>of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
>>is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
>>(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
>>the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
>>of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
>>not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
>>like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
>>Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***
>
>If a fly impacted the wing of a 747 at CME velocity, perhaps it
>*would* rip the wing off (de plane, not just de fly)!
>
>How much ripping could 10^10 tons of mass flying at that velocity do?

***{You wouldn't want to be standing under it, of course, but the idea of
its spinning the Earth's crust around seems a bit far fetched. Still, let's
run the numbers.

A typical meteorite is roughly 90% iron and 10% nickel. Since the density
of pure iron is about 7.86 and that of pure nickel is about 8.86, a typical
meteorite should have a density of about .9(7.86) + .1(8.86) = 7.96 gms/cc.
Since 10^10 metric tons is 10^16 grams, the volume of such a meteorite
would be 10^16/(7.96) =  1.26x10^15 cc's, or 1.26x10^9 m^3. The volume, V,
of a sphere is (4/3)Ľr^3, and so, assuming a spherical shape, the radius
would be r = (3V/4Ľ)^(1/3) = [3(1.26x10^9)/4Ľ]^(1/3) = 669.37 meters. The
worst case velocity (see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm)
would apparently be about 2000 km/sec. Total energy, then, would be
(1/2)mV^2 = (.5)(10^13)[(2x10^6)^2] = 2x10^25 joules.

Hey, I'm surprised: this sucker is looking pretty ugly! :-)

By way of contrast, the K-T impactor (the dinosaur killer) was about 4 km
in radius, and had a velocity of about 32 km/sec. (See *Nemesis, the Death
Star*, by Robert Muller, pg. 10.) Assuming it was of the typical
iron-nickel composition, it had a mass of [(4/3)Ľr^3]D =
[(4/3)Ľ(4000)^3](7.96) = 2.13x10^12 gms, or 2.13x10^9 kg. Result: total
energy equals (.5)(2.13x10^9)(32000)^2 = 1.09x10^18 joules.

In other words, a worst-case CME carries 7 orders of magnitude more energy
than the K-T impactor that wiped out the dinosaurs!

Nevertheless, I see no mechanism that would focus the energy of a CME on
Earth's crust in a way that would exert the necessary force, and so I
continue to regard this scenario is implausible in the extreme.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

***{P.S. Be sure to double-check all of my calcs. I am pressed for time,
and only did them once. Caveat emptor. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 23:52:16 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
Message-ID: <85.14ff705.27156714 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 02:47:48 EDT
Subject: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        tlamb3 mindspring.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: Lafonte11648 aol.com
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The project is going greater than I could have ever dreamed. The tests are 
going just as the theory predicts. Jon did a great job rebuilding the site 
and adding a video of the basic "Magnetic Equilibrium" principle. Site is 
simple and easy to follow now.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 10 23:54:09 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 02:52:56 EDT
Subject: Web address LaFonte Research Group
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Sorry, in my excitement from my tests results I forgot to post the web 
address.
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/vettenrr/LaFonteResearch.htm">
http://members.aol.com/vettenrr/LaFonteResearch.htm</A> 

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:13:00 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
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I wrote: "The SUV passengers suffered an impact delta v of 33.3 mi/hr. The
compact passengers experienced a delta v of 66.7 mi/hr.  The energy ratio
of the absorbed impact is (66.7/33.3) = about 4."

That should have read: "The SUV passengers suffered an impact delta v of
33.3 mi/hr. The compact passengers experienced a delta v of 66.7 mi/hr.
The energy ratio of the absorbed impact is (66.7/33.3)^2 = about 4."

It was just a typo, and the results are unchanged.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Assume the compact weighs 2000 lbs and the SUV 4000 lbs and they hit
>head-on, each doing 50 mph.  The compact has -2000 x 50 lb-mi/hr  and the
>SUV +4000 lb-mi/hr momentum. The net momentum of the system prior to the
>accident is +2000 x 50 lb-mi/hr.  Assume they blend into single mass, thus
>an inelastic collision.  The NET momentum of the system after the crash is
>the same as before, but the new mass is 6000 lb, so the velocity of the
>post-crash glob is 50/3 = +16.7 mi/hr. The SUV passengers suffered an
>impact delta v of 33.3 mi/hr. The compact passengers experienced a delta v
>of 66.7 mi/hr.  The energy ratio of the absorbed impact is (66.7/33.3) =
>about 4.  The compact passengers took 4 times the beating just in terms of
>energy absorbed.  However, the crush zones were designed to absorb 30 mi/hr
>crashes, not the 66.7 mi/hr equivalent crash just experienced.  The engine
>is probably located in the back seat of the compact at this point.

Actually, the NY Times and I were not talking about compact cars, but 
rather mid-sized conventionally shaped ones compared to SUVs. Everyone 
knows that compact cars are the most dangerous, but the stats show that 
SUVs are somewhat more dangerous than, say, sedans and station wagons. I 
think the main reason is SUVs are harder to drive.

Obviously a lighter car absorbs more energy in a crash, and in an elastic 
collision it would bounce back more, but if a vehicle body can be built 
stronger even though it is lighter, the passengers will survive better, as 
demonstrated in small and large airplane accidents. If all cars were built 
like racing cars, with massive struts in the passenger cabin, no place to 
sit, and no glass in the side windows, passengers would survive nearly all 
accidents. The struts and other structural improvements add little weight 
to the vehicles. Racing cars collide with walls and with one-another at 
tremendous speeds. They are destroyed, but the drivers usually walk away.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:56:29 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: SUV safety stats
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Adam Cox wrote:

>Jed, of course SUVs are top heavy compared to most other cars, it comes 
>from the increased ground clearance required to navigate rugged terrain.
>not that many SUV owners ever need that feature.

Right. I did not mean there is no reason. But the design does make them 
harder to drive, I gather. I have never driven one, but the pickup trucks 
and vans I have driven blow all over the road. It is ironic that I would 
never buy an SUV, but I am probably the only person in suburban Atlanta who 
actually needs one from time time. A couple of years ago on a rough dirt 
road, I whacked the bottom of our station wagon on a rock and broke a 
compressor or something. It took them a week to fix it.

I am not totally against SUVs. People have a right to indulge in their 
fantasies. However, there is no reason why these giant cars cannot be made 
with hybrid gasoline electric motors and other innovations, which would 
make them more efficient than a conventional station wagon. They could get 
30 mpg instead of 13.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 06:09:03 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Adam Cox <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:08:13 PST7BST 
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On 11-Oct-00, Adam Cox, wrote:
>Jed, of course SUVs are top heavy compared to most other cars, it comes from 
>the increased ground clearance required to navigate rugged terrain.
>not that many SUV owners ever need that feature.

Hmmm, Merlyn, this sounds like a blooming industry, for the homies of
East LA; putting lifting/lowering hydraulics onto those SUVs :)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 06:37:02 2000
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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At 02:47 AM 10/11/00 -0400, HLafonte aol.com wrote:
>The project is going greater than I could have ever dreamed. The tests are
>going just as the theory predicts.

Nice craftsmanship on the prototype, Butch.

However, there is no doubt that you will find that your motor's efficiency 
only approaches 100%...from the low side.  The elements you are using 
(coils, magnets, ferrite cores, etc.) have been extensively explored in 
literally thousands of experiments (every motor/generator ever designed, 
built, and tested) in which the system behavior is carefully compared to 
theoretical predictions (which theory fundamentally incorporates 
Conservation of Energy) without finding the slightest evidence of the kind 
of "anomalous" behavior required to make an over-unity device.  Don't think 
for a moment that you are combining these elements in a way that has never 
been tried before...and that will somehow get around the constraints of 
Conservation of Energy.

In fact, the actual performance of such devices always falls short of the 
theoretical maximum because of various loss mechanisms such as friction, 
eddy currents, and hysteresis losses in the magnetic materials.  However, 
with reasonable care you should be able to exceed 95% efficiency in your 
motor...but you will never exceed 100% efficiency.

If you obtain an efficiency measurement that is over 100%, the excess will 
surely be the result of a measurement error.

Magnetic motors such as yours are the just the 20th century version of the 
ill-fated mechanical perpetual motion machines of earlier centuries.

My purpose in writing this dire prediction is not to put you down but 
rather to steer your interests towards areas which actually appear to have 
a possibility of success.  I'm sure my words won't deter your present 
course in the slightest but, when you find that I am correct, perhaps then 
you will reconsider.

I am well aware that "areas which actually appear to have a possibility of 
success" often translates to "areas which we don't understand yet".  One 
exception to this is cold fusion...i.e. nuclear reactions without all the 
usual fuss.  In that case, we're just trying to tap a well-known 
already-utilized energy source in a new and easier way.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

Nevertheless, I see no mechanism that would focus the energy of a CME on
Earth's crust in a way that would exert the necessary force, and so I
continue to regard this scenario is implausible in the extreme.

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

It isn't the mass of the particles comprising
the CME (coronal mass ejection) that is relevant. It's
the accompanying magnetic field. The whole point is that the field may
directly link the Sun's field with that of the Earth, thereby directly
coupling the Earth to the Sun itself (not the particle cloud). Since the
mass of the Sun is greater than that of the Earth by many orders of
magnitude, such a transfer of (angular?) momentum would not be trivial.

Hi Mitchell and Robin,

I vaguely remember Velikovsky proposing a magnetic explanation
for a change in the momentum of the Earth to account for
Joshua's extended day.  The source of the electrical - mangnetic
force was supposed to be the then comet Venus.

Since there is generally some coronal ejection, the Sun would have
to exert a magnetic force on us most of the time.  Is there some
measure of this, some data?  Is there some other way that
the Sun could exert a magnetic force on us without relying on a
CME?  This could tie back to Velikovsky's proposal.  Or did the
fire-ball Venus also eject material (comet's tail) to exert a
magnetic force?

I recall Velikovshy making a big thing about lack of ice
cover in Siberia.  But wasn't that supposed to be about
4000 years ago, at the time of Exodus?

The major problem I have with either the Earth standing still
and/or the crust sliding is that, as far as I know, there is no
evidence for it in the Greenland ice cores.  Tbis is in clear
contrast with "normal" volcanism which leaves sulfate
deposits, such as in the layers around 535 AD which correspond
to a catastrophic cooling via blocking of sunlight that is mentioned
in historical records.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 07:16:29 2000
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:15:51 -0400
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Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from
  Tom Bearden
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001010161911.03611790 earthtech.org>
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Scott Little wrote:

 >>I hope Bearden agrees to let Earthtech test the gadget, and I hope
 >>Scott pushes aside his Clarke-Hess gadget asks Bearden to make the
 >>thing self-sustain.
 >
 >Good point.  That is indeed the first thing to try.  Hal has already asked
 >him about this and Bearden says they will try it soon.  I suspect that
 >will save him a trip to Austin.

Great! I am glad he is willing to try. You have to wonder about him though. 
He has been doing this for many years . . . Why didn't it occur to him to 
try this simple test before?

Please let us know the outcome of this test. Or let us know if he stops 
communicating and refuses to go to Austin. I think that would mean he 
failed to make the device self-sustain, and he will not admit it. That has 
been the pattern of behavior with other inventors making this sort of 
claim. They always try to measure input and output power, and they never 
put the machine to the test, even when they think there more than enough 
excess power to overcome friction and other losses. I cannot tell whether 
these people are sincere, and it never occurs to them to try, or whether 
they are deliberately hoaxing investors. Some of them come up with 
elaborate technical excuses explaining why they cannot do this, but the 
excuses boil down to nonsense. In the end, I suspect they are hoaxing 
themselves.

I wish CF was as easy to prove or disprove as these magic motor claims. It 
is a shame Mizuno cannot hook up a glow discharge cathode to a generator to 
make it self sustain. I am sure he would if he could.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:28:17 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> >Jed, of course SUVs are top heavy compared to most other cars, it comes
> >from the increased ground clearance required to navigate rugged terrain.
> >not that many SUV owners ever need that feature.
> 
> Right. I did not mean there is no reason. But the design does make them
> harder to drive, I gather. I have never driven one, but the pickup trucks
> and vans I have driven blow all over the road. It is ironic that I would
> never buy an SUV, but I am probably the only person in suburban Atlanta who
> actually needs one from time time. A couple of years ago on a rough dirt
> road, I whacked the bottom of our station wagon on a rock and broke a
> compressor or something. It took them a week to fix it.

Rollovers account for 62 percent of SUV fatalities.
 
> I am not totally against SUVs. People have a right to indulge in their
> fantasies. However, there is no reason why these giant cars cannot be made
> with hybrid gasoline electric motors and other innovations, which would
> make them more efficient than a conventional station wagon. They could get
> 30 mpg instead of 13.

How about a microturbine hybrid?  Capstone Turbine Corp. will
join with Hyundai Motor Co. to develop a prototype
hybrid-electric sport-utility vehicle:

http://www.latimes.com/business/20001006/t000094930.html

(forgive me if you've already seen this).

Terry

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:33:35 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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>Perhaps I should not respond to these messages from Mitchell Jones

***{I have no idea what "should not" means in this context, since this is
obviously not a moral question. The fact is that we are both participating
in a discussion group. That means it is OK for me to state my opinions and
it is OK for you to state yours. Thus if you want to respond, do so; and if
not, don't. There's nothing complicated about it. --MJ}***

, but
>this one makes absolutely no sense, and I would like to verify my
>impression with other readers. His proposition appears to incorporate
>logical inconsistencies similar to those of gravity theories before
>Galileo; viz, if a heavy object falls faster than a light object, what
>happens when you chain a heavy object to a light object to drop them
>together?

***{No. You simply don't understand, that's all. --MJ}***

(Galileo never actually performed a test by dropping objects from
>the tower of Pisa; he prevailed when he described that 'thought
>experiment'.) Jones makes two main contradictory assertions:
>Assertion 1: [people testing crashes] don't crash SUV's,
>         pickups, hummers, etc. into compact cars to collect their
>         "safety" data, because such tests demonstrate that a compact car
>         is a death trap on wheels. Instead, they crash vehicles into
>         immovable concrete barriers analogous to bridge abutments. The
>         reason they do that is simple under those circumstances, the
>         stiffer frames of the SUV's, pickups, etc. result in a sudden
>         stop which causes the passenger or test dummy to crash into the
>         steering wheel, dashboard, etc., with very little energy
>         dissipation by the vehicle. In a compact car, on the other hand,
>         the flimsy frame crumples up and absorbs a lot of the energy,
>         bringing the occupants to a gentler stop. Result: there is less
>         damage to compact-car passengers than to SUV and pickup
>         passengers, in the bridge-abutment type crashes. . .
>
>So, passengers in light cars with crash zones are safer than passengers in
>SUVs, as long as they strike concrete.

***{Or any similarly inflexible, immovable barrier. For example, would you
rather fall 30 feet directly onto concrete, or have a trampoline between
you and the concrete? If the latter, then, if you are consistent, you
should prefer to have flexible vehicular structures between you and a
concrete wall, if you strike it in your car, because, in effect, you will
be falling on those structures in much the way you would fall upon a
trampoline. --MJ}***

>Assertion 2: However, in the actual vehicle-to-vehicle crashes
>         that comprise the vast majority of actual crashes, things are
>         different in those crashes, the SUV or pickup passenger walks
>         away without a scratch in most cases, while the passengers in
>         the compact car--and that includes virtually all cars
>         nowadays--go home in body bags. The reason: in
>         vehicle-to-vehicle crashes, the car is crushed like a beer can,
>         and absorbs virtually all of the energy of the crash, include
>         that of the SUV or pickup.
>
>So, according to Jones there is "more energy" in a vehicle - vehicle crash,
>than a crash of a single vehicle into a wall

***{While that was not the main point, it happens to be *obviously* true.
Remember: KE = (1/2)mV^2. If m1 and V1 are the mass and velocity of your
vehicle, and m2 and V2 are the mass and velocity of the concrete wall,
respectively, then since V2 = 0, all of the kinetic energy of the collison
comes from your vehicle. If you crash head-on into another car at the same
speed, however, then m2 and V2 represent additional kinetic energy, because
V2 is *not* equal to zero. --MJ}***

, and furthermore the small car
>magically "absorbs virtually all the energy," and this somehow kills the
>occupants.

***{Have you ever seen those arrays of 55 gallon drums, bound together with
steel straps, that state authorities frequently place in front of bridge
abutments, large trees, and other inflexible, immovable objects that are by
the roadside? Did you ever ask yourself what they are for? The answer is
that they are there to absorb energy, in the event that a vehicle careens
in the direction of one of those inflexible, immovable objects. Think about
it: would you rather slam into a concrete bridge abutment at 60 mph, or
into an array of barrels that had been placed in front of the bridge
abutment? And if the latter, why so? Isn't it fairly obvious that it is
better to dissipate the kinetic energy of the crash by crumpling up the
steel barrels, than to dissipate it by crumpling up your car?

If you see the reasonableness of that proposition, take it one step
further: suppose you are driving a vehicle that is totally inflexible--so
much so that, if it strikes a concrete wall, it will be utterly undamaged.
In that case, if you hit a concrete wall at 60 mph, the vehicle will not
flex or bend at all. Instead, it will stop instantly. Result: your body
slams into the steering wheel or the dashboard at 60 mph, and you are
severely injured or killed.

Alternatively, suppose that you are driving a vehicle such as a Volvo,
which is designed to crumple up around the passengers, with its stiffness
kicking in only when the passenger compartment itself is reached. In that
case, when the bumper strikes the concrete wall, it begins to crumple,
absorbing energy as it does so, and is pushed back into the radiators and
frame members, which also crumple, absorbing still more energy, etc., until
finally, in the hoped-for scenario, the car has been crumpled up into a
ball around the passenger compartment, with the passengers alive and
kicking because most of the energy of the collision was absorbed in the
bending, twisting, and heating of material external to the passenger
compartment. The idea is that when the kinetic energy which the vehicle
carried into the impact has been all absorbed, its speed should be zero,
the collison should be over, and the passengers should be safe. This can
happen because the kinetic energy of the wall was zero going into the
collison. Hence when the kinetic energy of the Volvo has been absorbed, the
collision is over.

However, now let us suppose that a Volvo does a head-on collision with a
pickup truck at 60 mph. In that case, again, the volvo crumples up to the
passenger compartment, thereby  dissipating all of its kinetic energy.
Unfortunately, the collision is not yet over, because the kinetic energy of
the pickup truck also has to be dissipated, and that may not happen until
the Volvo's passenger compartment has been smashed down onto its occupants,
killing them.

Elementary physics, therefore, leads to the following conclusions: (1)
other things equal, a heavy, inflexible vehicle is less safe than a light,
flexible vehicle, when striking an immovable inflexible barrier; (2) a
heavy, inflexible vehicle is more safe than a light, flexible vehicle, when
the two vehicles are crashing into each other; (3) crash testing against
inflexible, immovable objects is guaranteed to show light, flexible
vehicles in a good light; and (4) crash testing of vehicles against other
vehicles is guaranteed to show heavy, inflexible vehicles in a good light.

In reason, the type of crash test chosen ought to be the one that reflects
the conditions which occur in the most common type of collision--which
means: crash testing of vehicles against other vehicles is the way to go.
However, the authorities don't like the results of such tests, because they
indicate that large, inflexible vehicles such as SUV's and pickups are
*much safer* than smaller and more flexible vehicles. Since they want to
force us into small, uncomfortable, and dangerous vehicles, in order to
make "mass transit"--i.e., government control of transportation--seem less
unpleasant by comparison, they choose to do tests that enable them to
propagandize in favor of that goal, despite the fact that such tests do not
reflect the realities of collisions as they take place in the real world.


Anyway, that's enough for now. If, at this point, you still do not
understand, then try again. I will be happy to continue the clarification
process.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 09:46:34 2000
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Dear George,
Thanks for your support on this subject. We have no way of knowing
whether this is all nonsense as Mitchell Jones thinks or may actually
happen, God forbid.  However, like all aspects of reality, the people
who are successful play the odds which favor their efforts.  In this
case, I think the odds favor being aware of the possibility  and
reacting to events as they unfold.  In the absence of the information
provided by Mandeville and others, these events would be overlooked
until it was too late. If Jones is  correct, we all have had a good
discussion. If Mandeville is correct, some of us will survive to help
make a better world.

I think getting Mandeville involved is a good idea.  Do you have all
of the thread?  I delete most of the rantings as I read them, so I'm
not a good archive.

Regards,
Ed

George Holz wrote:

> Hi Ed,
> I have read most of "Return of the Phoenix" and have
> studied the Cayce readings over many years.
> Michael Mandeville has made an excellent case for the
> "pole shifts" ,past and future, predicted and described
> in the Cayce readings. As accurate as Cayce's earth change
> predictions have proved to be so far, his medical readings
> appear to be even more accurate. Also, his prediction of the
> discovery and content of the Dead Sea Scrolls is truly remarkable.
> I think (or hope) that Michael's case for the exact timing of the
> next ploe shift is not quite as strong. The general trends in
> volcanic and earthquake activity as analyzed by M.M. certainly
> support Cayce's timetable in a general way, but at least one
> of Cayce's major earth change predictions is now about 30
> years late. Also the general sense of the readings does not
> support the possibility of accurate  timetables for future
> earth changes. M.M. has done a good job gathering all the
> supporting evidence in the readings for his point of view, but
> other points of view are also supported by material in the
> readings that M.M. has chosen not to emphasize.
> In any case, the recent strange behavior of the pole position
> is certainly unexpected  and the link between the position of the
> inner planets, sunspot positions, and solar storms on the earth
> predicted by M.M. appears to be accurate. Perhaps we should
> forward the thread to M.M. and see if he wishes to answer any
> of the comments?
> Regards,
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 10:16:40 2000
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:00:03 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>>Mitchell -
>>
>>At 1:20 PM -0500 10/10/00, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>>>***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
>>>of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
>>>is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
>>>(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
>>>the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
>>>of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
>>>not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
>>>like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
>>>Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***
>>
>>If a fly impacted the wing of a 747 at CME velocity, perhaps it
>>*would* rip the wing off (de plane, not just de fly)!
>>
>>How much ripping could 10^10 tons of mass flying at that velocity do?
>
>***{You wouldn't want to be standing under it, of course, but the idea of
>its spinning the Earth's crust around seems a bit far fetched. Still, let's
>run the numbers.
>
>A typical meteorite is roughly 90% iron and 10% nickel. Since the density
>of pure iron is about 7.86 and that of pure nickel is about 8.86, a typical
>meteorite should have a density of about .9(7.86) + .1(8.86) = 7.96 gms/cc.
>Since 10^10 metric tons is 10^16 grams, the volume of such a meteorite
>would be 10^16/(7.96) =  1.26x10^15 cc's, or 1.26x10^9 m^3. The volume, V,
>of a sphere is (4/3)Ľr^3, and so, assuming a spherical shape, the radius
>would be r = (3V/4Ľ)^(1/3) = [3(1.26x10^9)/4Ľ]^(1/3) = 669.37 meters. The
>worst case velocity (see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm)
>would apparently be about 2000 km/sec. Total energy, then, would be
>(1/2)mV^2 = (.5)(10^13)[(2x10^6)^2] = 2x10^25 joules.

***{One fellow who read the above contacted me privately to argue that a
CME (coronal mass ejection) isn't a meteorite! Well, I know that. My
purpose in the above, in case anyone else was confused, was to compare a
worst-case CME with a meteorite that had the same energy, just to get a
picture of the sort of thing we are talking about here. This is useful
because a meteorite, when it crashed into the Earth, would have a fixed
coupling with the crust, and thus would in theory be capable of inducing a
pole shift. A CME, on the other hand, is just a diffuse cloud of protons,
most of which would be deflected away from the crust by Earth's magnetic
field. Result: a rigid coupling to the crust would not be possible, and,
thus, it appears that a pole shift due to such a cause would also be
impossible, even though the CME *does* carry enough energy to get the job
done. --MJ}***

>
>Hey, I'm surprised: this sucker is looking pretty ugly! :-)
>
>By way of contrast, the K-T impactor (the dinosaur killer) was about 4 km
>in radius, and had a velocity of about 32 km/sec. (See *Nemesis, the Death
>Star*, by Robert Muller, pg. 10.) Assuming it was of the typical
>iron-nickel composition, it had a mass of [(4/3)Ľr^3]D =
>[(4/3)Ľ(4000)^3](7.96) = 2.13x10^12 gms, or 2.13x10^9 kg. Result: total
>energy equals (.5)(2.13x10^9)(32000)^2 = 1.09x10^18 joules.
>
>In other words, a worst-case CME carries 7 orders of magnitude more energy
>than the K-T impactor that wiped out the dinosaurs!
>
>Nevertheless, I see no mechanism that would focus the energy of a CME on
>Earth's crust in a way that would exert the necessary force, and so I
>continue to regard this scenario is implausible in the extreme.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>- Rick Monteverde
>>Honolulu, HI
>
>***{P.S. Be sure to double-check all of my calcs. I am pressed for time,
>and only did them once. Caveat emptor. --MJ}***

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:14:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Dear George,
>Thanks for your support on this subject. We have no way of knowing
>whether this is all nonsense as Mitchell Jones thinks or may actually
>happen, God forbid.

***{I contend that we *do* have a way to know--to wit: this is simple,
conventional physics. A worst-case CME, surprisingly, has enough energy to
bring about a pole shift. Fortunately, it lacks a mechanism that can
rigidly couple its energy to the Earth's crust. Result: it cannot bring
about the proposed effect. To say, in such a context, that "we have no way
of knowing whether this is all nonsense" is analogous to saying that we
have no way of knowing whether a batter can hit a home run, even if he
forgot to bring his bat to the plate with him! --MJ}***

However, like all aspects of reality, the people
>who are successful play the odds which favor their efforts.  In this
>case, I think the odds favor being aware of the possibility  and
>reacting to events as they unfold.  In the absence of the information
>provided by Mandeville and others, these events would be overlooked
>until it was too late. If Jones is  correct, we all have had a good
>discussion. If Mandeville is correct, some of us will survive to help
>make a better world.
>
>I think getting Mandeville involved is a good idea.  Do you have all
>of the thread?  I delete most of the rantings as I read them, so I'm
>not a good archive.
>
>Regards,
>Ed

[snip]

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:27:04 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:20:26 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>>Just to add a little spice 8), two more things to consider.
>>1) Could a sufficiently large CME interacting with the Earth's field during
>>the lava outpouring at Steens Mountain have resulted in a momentary net
>>local field that varied rapidly while the lava was cooling, resulting in the
>>observed orientations?
>>(I.e. the Earth's own field orientation may not have changed, only the net
>>local field).
>>2) Magnetic field lines can transfer considerable momentum to the magnet
>>from which they derive (otherwise electric motors wouldn't work).
>>Is it possible that during a large CME interaction with the Earth, the
>>Earth's "magnet" becomes coupled to that of the Sun, resulting in a transfer
>>of momentum from one to the other?
>>(I.e. the Earth is the "rotor", and the Sun is the "stator").
>
>***{I doubt that the biggest CME (coronal mass ejection) would be capable
>of affecting the crust of the Earth, even with a rigid coupling. The reason
>is that the largest recorded CME was apparently about 10^10 metric tons
>(see http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/cme.htm), whereas the mass of
>the Earth is about 6x10^21 metric tons. That is a difference of 11 orders
>of magnitude. Thus even with a rigid coupling--which a magnetic coupling is
>not--the expectation that a CME could shift the crust of the Earth would be
>like expecting the impact of a fly to rip one of the wings off of a 747.
>Simply put: it ain't gonna happen. --MJ}***

There's an awful lot of range in the phrase "capable of affecting."
:)

Relatively small CME's now affect the Earth (and crust of the Earth).
The effect isn't great, but it's there.  Most CME's are just an
increase in the solar wind, with attendant additional pushes on the
magnetosphere (and increased current through the Earth).  

But large CME's appear to have a rotation, and thus have their own
magnetic field, with North and South poles.  Depending on the angle
and distance of the CME's poles in relation to the Earth's magnetic
poles, a slight but sustained force would be applied to the Earth.  If
the force is sustained long enough (a day or two), it could be enough
to start slippage of the crust on it's almost frictionless bearing.

The relatively small mass of a train engine can move a large train by
applying a small but sustained force for a few seconds.  The same
process could "move the Earth."

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:30:29 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:41:46 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Another possibility - could the direction of the magnetic field have been
>fixed in the mineral, while it was still somewhat plastic and flowing?
>I.e. could the rock itself have moved *after* the field direction became set
>in the mineral?

When rock (magma) is plastic and hot enough too flow, it's still well
above the Curie temperature.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Hi Taylor,

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:47:15 +0000, "Taylor J. Smith"
<tjs11 centurytel.net> wrote:

>I recall Velikovshy making a big thing about lack of ice
>cover in Siberia.  But wasn't that supposed to be about
>4000 years ago, at the time of Exodus?

There's a timing situation as to when the last "ice age" actually
ended.  There's quite a bit of evidence that seems to show the final
disappearance of the ice was about 3500 years ago (from the rate of
river erosion, rate of lake bed deposits, etc.).  This is a large
conflict with the currently accepted ice age end of about 11,000 years
ago.

IMO, both are sorta right.  The wooley mammoth freeze dating of about
11,000 years ago could be when an ice age started in Siberia, but it
took quite a while for the ice to melt off North America, with
relatively minor climate changes along the way.  So 3500 years could
be the final melting date brought about by our current climate regime.

Since the final melting, the Earth has had several minor climate
changes that led to changes in civilizations.  The fall of Rome, the
Mayan civilization and Hopi cliff dwellings all happened around
600-900 CE due to a climate change.  Another, smaller, climate change
occurred in the 1500's CE.  

A larger climate change turned the Egyptian wheat fields into the
Sahara desert -- and apparently the Gobi desert was created about the
same time.  But we're still gathering data about this change (4000
BCE??).

>The major problem I have with either the Earth standing still
>and/or the crust sliding is that, as far as I know, there is no
>evidence for it in the Greenland ice cores.  Tbis is in clear
>contrast with "normal" volcanism which leaves sulfate
>deposits, such as in the layers around 535 AD which correspond
>to a catastrophic cooling via blocking of sunlight that is mentioned
>in historical records.

Greenland is covered by ice now.  It was also close -- maybe closer --
to the center of the "ice age" ice sheet.  The same for parts of
Antarctica.

Pole shifts can be a crust movement anywhere between 0 and 180
degrees.  The last one, based on the spreading center of the last "ice
age" in Hudson Bay, seems to have been about 20 to 25 degrees.  Some
researchers have identified previous locations for polar caps, based
on depressions in the Earth that are still rebounding (bouyant rising
due to ice meltoff).  Two are found near the Caspian depression and in
the middle of Africa.

BTW, astrophysicists have identified a pole shift on Mars -- and it's
in the peer-reviewed literature.  

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:42:03 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Dear George,
> >Thanks for your support on this subject. We have no way of knowing
> >whether this is all nonsense as Mitchell Jones thinks or may actually
> >happen, God forbid.
>
> ***{I contend that we *do* have a way to know--to wit: this is simple,
> conventional physics. A worst-case CME, surprisingly, has enough energy to
> bring about a pole shift. Fortunately, it lacks a mechanism that can
> rigidly couple its energy to the Earth's crust. Result: it cannot bring
> about the proposed effect. To say, in such a context, that "we have no way
> of knowing whether this is all nonsense" is analogous to saying that we
> have no way of knowing whether a batter can hit a home run, even if he
> forgot to bring his bat to the plate with him! --MJ}***

As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is not.  In
this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is suggested, you
reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
original assumption stands and we make no progress.

In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are known to
interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.  I agree, but then point out
that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer under the
crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could trigger a
slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is released
by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this energy
to accumulate. Can you do this?

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 15:04:44 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Selling energy like overpriced coffee
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Here is an interesting marketing concept: sell electricity the way 
Starbucks and other overpriced coffee boutiques sell coffee, as a brand, 
with snob appeal. You can charge a premium and make people happy to pay it. 
See:

http://greenmountain.lycos.com/

Actually, their prices are quite reasonable. They offer electricity in 
California, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. They say that customers paying 
PG&E $150 per month will pay $155 for renewable power, $157 for solar 
power, or $176 for wind power. I would buy it if I lived in one of these 
states. A 15 percent surcharge to promote innovative technology is okay 
with me. If enough people do it, not only would pollution decrease, but the 
price of wind electricity would soon fall below that of coal or nuclear 
power. Consumers can change the world overnight, when the spirit moves 
them, brushing aside the corporations and government agencies.

This same marketing technique would work with prototype cold fusion 
devices. Even if they cost 10 times more than conventional generators at 
first, thousands of customers would line up to buy them, just to enjoy the 
novelty and wonder of it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 15:09:33 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:22:33 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Ed,

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:26:13 -0700, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>You might be right, Vince.  However, if the Chinese memories are to be believed,
>the effect occurred over about 6 days with only the coasts being affected
>directly.  People near volcanoes naturally were cooked and people near faults
>were shaken up.  The rest of mankind was left without the normal infrastructure
>and with a sky full of ash.  Nevertheless, a great many people survived to
>repopulate the earth and to tell us about their experience.  We can hope to be
>so lucky.

Do you have a source for these Chinese memories??  I hadn't heard
about them.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 15:11:25 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Pole Shifts
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:11:14 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Hank,

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT), hank scudder
<hjscudde newton.csun.edu> wrote:

>The earth is very nearly a sphere. A sphere has three identical moments of
>inertia. Ix, Iy, Iz. The earth is slightly oblate, about 20 miles thicker
>at the equator then at the poles, so Iz is slightly larger then Ix and Iy.
>I am sure that these numbers are available for the earth, but I don't have
>them handy. If the surface of the earth changes, such as an ice age, or
>antarctica melting, these moments of inertia will also change, and to
>conserve the angular momentum of the earth, the axis of rotation would
>shift accordingly, so the earth would spin about its largest moment of
>inertia. One of the Vortex people should get out their dynamics textbook,
>and try some calculations. It appears to me that a polar shift is not
>impossible in theory, but would not happen if the surface changes are not
>large enough.

It's not necessary to get out a dynamics textbook, because the
spinning Earth is inherently stable.  That's because the "solid" Earth
isn't solid, it's fluid.  To the tiny creatures infesting the surface
of the Earth, it seems to be quite solid, but in astronomical terms,
it's a big ball of fluid, much like the Sun and Jupiter (and many
other large astronomical objects).

Since it is fluid, any mass imbalances on or near the surface of the
Earth are automatically adjusted out (by raising or lowering the
imbalance).

Remember, the slag on the surface of the fluid Earth (we call it the
crust) is about as strong and stable as the oxides that form on the
surface of molten metals or the scum that forms on boiling milk.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Selling energy like overpriced coffee
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:29:15 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:55:33 -0400:
[snip]
>Actually, their prices are quite reasonable. They offer electricity in 
>California, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. They say that customers paying 
>PG&E $150 per month will pay $155 for renewable power, $157 for solar 
>power, or $176 for wind power. I would buy it if I lived in one of these 

I find this strange, as I would have expected wind power to be considerably
cheaper than solar. 

>states. A 15 percent surcharge to promote innovative technology is okay 
>with me. 

My local electric company offers such an option, however I refuse to take it
up, on the grounds that it is a pure rip off. Wind power is currently
competitive or almost so with convention generation technology, where
installation costs are concerned, and the fuel is free. Hence the power
should be *cheaper* not dearer than fossil fuel based power.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 15:46:37 2000
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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:26:13 -0700, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >You might be right, Vince.  However, if the Chinese memories are to be believed,
> >the effect occurred over about 6 days with only the coasts being affected
> >directly.  People near volcanoes naturally were cooked and people near faults
> >were shaken up.  The rest of mankind was left without the normal infrastructure
> >and with a sky full of ash.  Nevertheless, a great many people survived to
> >repopulate the earth and to tell us about their experience.  We can hope to be
> >so lucky.
>
> Do you have a source for these Chinese memories??  I hadn't heard
> about them.

Mandeville goes into this in some detail in his Volume 3, including memories from
many sources.
Ed


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Dean from Duh Moyn wrote:

> Remember, the slag on the surface of the fluid Earth (we call it the
> crust) is about as strong and stable as the oxides that form on the
> surface of molten metals or the scum that forms on boiling milk.

Let's see if I get this straight.  This theory is not disputing the general
plate tectonics theory--plates are still inching along at a slow rate and
they all fit together several hundred million years ago.  However, the
theory suggests that the whole crustal structure itself moves around when
some force with enough torsion to do it is applied (ie, magnetic field
coupling to a CME).

Why have the Hawaiian islands, which are driven by an unusual hot spot
feature *below the crust*, continued to stay in the same spot (except for
conventional plate drift) and have grown continuously over a time which
spans well beyond these pole shifts?  Perhaps only certain plates move when
a pole shift occurs?

-Steve

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ionic sizes and fusion
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:49:32 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

If electrons really are shells as Mills proposes, then even severely
shrunken "neutral" hydrinos shouldn't be able to get any closer to the
target atom than its outer shell. This means that for there to be any chance
of fusion at all, the "target" atom should be as heavily ionised as
possible. Good targets might be C(4+) (0.16 Ĺ) as in the carbonate, or P(5+)
(0.17 Ĺ) as in the phosphate.
IOW carbonates or phosphates as anions in the electrolyte of an electrolysis
CF experiment, might have the best chance of generating excess heat, from
reactions such as:

C12 + H -> N13 1.94 MeV and
P31 + H -> Si28 + He4 1.9 MeV

OTOH for plasma reactions, where more highly ionised atoms may exist, many
different reactions could prove possible.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 19:20:35 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Pole Shifts
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:16:35 +1100
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In reply to  Florek, Steven's message of Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:19:06 -0700:
[snip]
>Let's see if I get this straight.  This theory is not disputing the general
>plate tectonics theory--plates are still inching along at a slow rate and
>they all fit together several hundred million years ago.  However, the
>theory suggests that the whole crustal structure itself moves around when
>some force with enough torsion to do it is applied (ie, magnetic field
>coupling to a CME).

Actually, I would think more likely that the field couples to, and moves the
core itself (if it's the core that is responsible for the Earth's magnetic
field).
Then friction between the core and the rest of the planet would have
consequential effects.
>
>Why have the Hawaiian islands, which are driven by an unusual hot spot
>feature *below the crust*, continued to stay in the same spot (except for
>conventional plate drift) and have grown continuously over a time which
>spans well beyond these pole shifts?  Perhaps only certain plates move when
>a pole shift occurs?
>
>-Steve
Perhaps the shift is deeper than the plume.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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 <00ad01c032fe$649ff360$0c6cd626 varisys.com>
 <v04011702b60a4d37a2dc [207.8.127.28]>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:27:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >Dear George,
>> >Thanks for your support on this subject. We have no way of knowing
>> >whether this is all nonsense as Mitchell Jones thinks or may actually
>> >happen, God forbid.
>>
>> ***{I contend that we *do* have a way to know--to wit: this is simple,
>> conventional physics. A worst-case CME, surprisingly, has enough energy to
>> bring about a pole shift. Fortunately, it lacks a mechanism that can
>> rigidly couple its energy to the Earth's crust. Result: it cannot bring
>> about the proposed effect. To say, in such a context, that "we have no way
>> of knowing whether this is all nonsense" is analogous to saying that we
>> have no way of knowing whether a batter can hit a home run, even if he
>> forgot to bring his bat to the plate with him! --MJ}***
>
>As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
>conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is not.  In
>this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is suggested, you
>reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
>original assumption stands and we make no progress.

***{As long as my original assumption stands, that's progress, right? :-)
--MJ}***

>
>In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are known to
>interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
>small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.

***{Lunar and solar tides continually flex the crust of the Earth, and
probably cause some very gradual slippage of the crust. However, that
slippage occurs mostly in a direction parallel to the equator, and thus has
little influence on the orientation of the polar axis. (With respect to the
plane of the Earth's orbit, Earth's equator is inclined at about 23.5
degrees, and the plane of the Moon's orbit is inclined at about 5 degrees.)
--MJ}***

I agree, but then point out
>that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer under the
>crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
>assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could trigger a
>slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is released
>by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
>assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this energy
>to accumulate. Can you do this?

***{A scientific skeptic doesn't have to prove that there is no possible
basis for an effect. All he has to do is shoot down the various specific
mechanisms that are proposed to account for it.

As for your notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my reaction is that the
evidence contradicts such a state of affairs. As I recall, (a) when the
Moon passes overhead, the crust typically has risen up by about 50 feet,
(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet, (c) when the
Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the Earth, the crust has risen by
50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet
again. That means there is no accumulation.

Accumulation would require a scenario such as: (a) as the Moon approaches
the zenith, the crust bulges up by 50 feet, (b) as the Moon sets, the crust
falls back by 35 feet, (c) as the Moon approaches zenith at the antipode,
the crust rises up by 50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust falls
by 35 feet. Result: the crust would progressively rear 30 feet higher each
day until its stress limit was exceeded, after which it would suddenly
lurch back toward equilibrium. However, we know this isn't happening
because the Apollo astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the Moon, and,
by reflecting lasers off of them, the tide-related rise and fall of the
crust can be measured to within 30 cm. Nothing in the resulting massive
data base supports the notion that tidal energy is being stored in the
crust.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 20:10:07 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re: (IMPORTANT) The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator from Tom  Bearden
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Thanks to Dan Quickert and Terry Blanton for checking out Tom Bearden's 
self-alleged but apparently non-existent Ph.D.

Maybe Bearden decided to award himself an honorary degree from a newly 
established Bearden U.

Tom Stolper

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Subject: cheap oil
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World Net Daily is a usually reliable source. What to you people think?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/20001007_xnjdo_research_p.shtml

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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Just a few points.

The solar wind is very tenuous, even when augmented by coronal mass
ejections (CMEs). It's still a great vacuum out there in Earth's
neighborhood. Satellites don't get damaged by any forces due to CMEs, but
by radiation that damages their electronics. Satellite orbits are much more
affected by the remnants of Earth atmosphere.

The magnetic field out there where the solar wind meets Earth's magnetic
field, is very small, way below a microtesla. This is where the bowshock
forms and the solar wind is obliged to flow around Earth. The bowshock
occurs where the pressure of Earth's field equals the ram pressure of the
solar wind.

Neither the solar wind nor its magnetic field do much to Earth by their
pressures, which are very weak. What does happen is that the gustiness of
the solar wind causes the location of the bow shock to vary. This causes
the magnetic field back at Earth to vary slightly, too, and varying
magnetic field induces EMF. While the EMF is weak, it extends over the
whole Earth, and it can induce large and damaging voltage in large metallic
loops, such as in electric power networks, which because of their size link
a lot of magnetic flux. It also induces currents in that large conductor
called the ionosphere. The ionosphere also gets power from a small fraction
of solar wind particles (mostly protons and electrons) that leaks through
the bow shock and onto Earth-field magnetic lines that guide the particles
to the region of hte magnetic poles.

The magnetic field in Earth's interior is not huge. It is on the order of a
tesla. I remind you that Earth's field is not generated in its solid inner
core, but in liquid outer core. The dynamo consists of about a dozen
thermal convection plumes at any one time, that are twisted by the Coriolis
force of Earth's rotation, resulting in generation of electric current and
magnetic field. This field is far from a pure dipole in shape. However,
most of the finer structure is decayed to small amplitude here on the
surface. Every so often the thermal convection goes chaotic, as convection
is wont to do, and the dipole we see shifts. It might be a few tens of
degrees. This is why the present field is not aligned with the rotation
pole. More rarely, the entire convective pattern gets scrambled, and then
it is likely to re establish itself with the dynamo in the opposite
direction. (I do not remember reading in papers whether it can re establish
with the dynamo in the same direction, but I cannot think off hand of any
reason why it can't do that, too.) Sun does the big flip roughly every 11
years; it has powerful convection, whereas Earth's is weak, comparatively
speaking. The spinning solar convection cell dynamos that make its magnetic
field also stir up clusters of sunspots. This is why the sunspot cycle and
magnetic field cycle have the same perions. Incidently, we know the details
of Sun's interior better than Earth's, because Sun experinences perpetual
"sunquakes" and we collect and analyze gigabytes of solar seismic data.

Earth's crust, even if it were floating on a low viscosity liquid (it's
not; it's on the highly viscous mantle) could not change its rotation axis
rapidly. The crust is rotating, and therfore it has angular momentum---a
lot of it. It is a huge gyroscope. It takes a huge torque to change the
direction of its axis---less than it would to change the axis of the whole
earth, but still a large torque. There are no torques of the required
magnitude anywhere around. Perturbations by the moon and Sun are much too
small. These have been calculated (a long time ago; lots of the advanced
math of the 18th and 19th centuries was developed to solve this and other
problems of classical mechanics.

If the crust were to change its rotation axis with respect to the rest of
the interior every so often, then we should expect to find the interior
rotating about a much different axis than the crust, due to past shifts.
Seismic data show that it does not. Data do show that the inner core
rotates slightly faster than the outer layers and crust by a small amount,
roughly a percent now that the quality of the observational data and its
analysis have gotten pretty good. This agrees pretty well with the best
computer calculations of the differential rotation between inner and outer
Earth due to twisting of the thermal convection by Coriolis force in the
liquid outer core. It's all coming together with nice consistency, which is
what scientists like, because that is what goes into making a theory.

The Antarctic ice cap is about 3 km thick on average. Earth's equatorial
bulge is 20 km or so. Therefore, the Antarctic cap is far too small to
destabilize the present rotation axis.




=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 23:35:29 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:33:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>>> >Dear George,
>>> >Thanks for your support on this subject. We have no way of knowing
>>> >whether this is all nonsense as Mitchell Jones thinks or may actually
>>> >happen, God forbid.
>>>
>>> ***{I contend that we *do* have a way to know--to wit: this is simple,
>>> conventional physics. A worst-case CME, surprisingly, has enough energy to
>>> bring about a pole shift. Fortunately, it lacks a mechanism that can
>>> rigidly couple its energy to the Earth's crust. Result: it cannot bring
>>> about the proposed effect. To say, in such a context, that "we have no way
>>> of knowing whether this is all nonsense" is analogous to saying that we
>>> have no way of knowing whether a batter can hit a home run, even if he
>>> forgot to bring his bat to the plate with him! --MJ}***
>>
>>As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
>>conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is not.  In
>>this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is suggested, you
>>reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
>>original assumption stands and we make no progress.
>
>***{As long as my original assumption stands, that's progress, right? :-)
>--MJ}***
>
>>
>>In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are known to
>>interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
>>small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.
>
>***{Lunar and solar tides continually flex the crust of the Earth, and
>probably cause some very gradual slippage of the crust. However, that
>slippage occurs mostly in a direction parallel to the equator, and thus has
>little influence on the orientation of the polar axis. (With respect to the
>plane of the Earth's orbit, Earth's equator is inclined at about 23.5
>degrees, and the plane of the Moon's orbit is inclined at about 5 degrees.)
>--MJ}***
>
>I agree, but then point out
>>that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer under the
>>crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
>>assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could trigger a
>>slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is released
>>by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
>>assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this energy
>>to accumulate. Can you do this?
>
>***{A scientific skeptic doesn't have to prove that there is no possible
>basis for an effect. All he has to do is shoot down the various specific
>mechanisms that are proposed to account for it.
>
>As for your notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my reaction is that the
>evidence contradicts such a state of affairs. As I recall, (a) when the
>Moon passes overhead, the crust typically has risen up by about 50 feet,
>(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet, (c) when the
>Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the Earth, the crust has risen by
>50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet
>again. That means there is no accumulation.

***{My recollection that land tides are about 50 feet was from reading I
did many years ago, and, upon reflection, seemed implausible to me.
Therefore, in an attempt to verify or falsify that memory, I spent some
time doing web searches, and came up with the following link:
http://www.synapses.co.uk/astro/moon1.html. According to this article, land
tides on Earth are a few centimeters, not 50 feet! Sorry about that. :-(
--MJ}***

>
>Accumulation would require a scenario such as: (a) as the Moon approaches
>the zenith, the crust bulges up by 50 feet, (b) as the Moon sets, the crust
>falls back by 35 feet, (c) as the Moon approaches zenith at the antipode,
>the crust rises up by 50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust falls
>by 35 feet. Result: the crust would progressively rear 30 feet higher each
>day until its stress limit was exceeded, after which it would suddenly
>lurch back toward equilibrium. However, we know this isn't happening
>because the Apollo astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the Moon, and,
>by reflecting lasers off of them, the tide-related rise and fall of the
>crust can be measured to within 30 cm. Nothing in the resulting massive
>data base supports the notion that tidal energy is being stored in the
>crust.

***{The above comments, also based on memory, are correct in terms of the
30 cm accuracy, I think. (I read that somewhere fairly recently.) However,
if land tides are measured in centimeters rather than feet, then the laser
reflection measurements become incapable of supporting my thesis. However,
fortunately, I found the following comment in the above listed URL:

"These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is
very slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the
Earth rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."

I'm not sure what the supporting measurements are for the above statement,
but if it is true, then accumulation of tidal stresses in the crust is
precluded, as I originally said, albeit for a different reason.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 00:35:24 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:31:32 GMT
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:45:44 -0700, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:26:13 -0700, Edmund Storms
>> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >You might be right, Vince.  However, if the Chinese memories are to be believed,
>> >the effect occurred over about 6 days with only the coasts being affected
>> >directly.  People near volcanoes naturally were cooked and people near faults
>> >were shaken up.  The rest of mankind was left without the normal infrastructure
>> >and with a sky full of ash.  Nevertheless, a great many people survived to
>> >repopulate the earth and to tell us about their experience.  We can hope to be
>> >so lucky.
>>
>> Do you have a source for these Chinese memories??  I hadn't heard
>> about them.
>
>Mandeville goes into this in some detail in his Volume 3, including memories from
>many sources.

Hmm.  Guess I'm going to have to get Mikes books.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 00:50:01 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: Pole Shifts
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:50:27 GMT
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Hi Steven,

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:19:06 -0700, "Florek, Steven"
<Steven.Florek omnikron.com> wrote:

>
>Dean from Duh Moyn wrote:
>
>> Remember, the slag on the surface of the fluid Earth (we call it the
>> crust) is about as strong and stable as the oxides that form on the
>> surface of molten metals or the scum that forms on boiling milk.
>
>Let's see if I get this straight.  This theory is not disputing the general
>plate tectonics theory--plates are still inching along at a slow rate and
>they all fit together several hundred million years ago.  However, the
>theory suggests that the whole crustal structure itself moves around when
>some force with enough torsion to do it is applied (ie, magnetic field
>coupling to a CME).

Basically, that's right.  

>Why have the Hawaiian islands, which are driven by an unusual hot spot
>feature *below the crust*, continued to stay in the same spot (except for
>conventional plate drift) and have grown continuously over a time which
>spans well beyond these pole shifts?  Perhaps only certain plates move when
>a pole shift occurs?

There appear to be several different kinds of hot spots.  Some are
fixed in relation to a tectonic plate while others are not.   I've
read no explanation about the difference.  

The Hawaiian hot spot is somehow associated with the Pacific plate,
while the old Yellowstone hot spot (which isn't a hot spot any longer,
it's just a thin place in the crust) looks like it's moved to become
the Iceland hot spot (Iceland and associated islands are of Recent
geologic age, from my understanding of what I've read).  The Hawaiian
hot spot does take a jog (I've forgotten how many million years ago it
happened).

There's another problem with the Hawaiian hot spot.  That hot spot
crosses another line of hot spot islands and seamounts.  IOW, two hot
spots were moving under the Pacific plate at an angle to each other
sufficient to allow them to cross.  I've seen no hypothesis -- with or
without pole shifts -- that can explain this.  :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 07:08:26 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:07:30 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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Scott Little wrote;

>
>In fact, the actual performance of such devices always falls short 
>of the theoretical maximum because of various loss mechanisms such 
>as friction, eddy currents, and hysteresis losses in the magnetic 
>materials.  However, with reasonable care you should be able to 
>exceed 95% efficiency in your motor...but you will never exceed 100% 
>efficiency.

As you are all aware, Joseph Newman has a website where he is selling 
prototypes of just this sort of machine. He asserts that it produces 
excess energy. Has anyone tested this machine? Scott, have you or Hal 
talked to Joe about testing this motor?

Thomas Malloy

If I handed you a pile of kindling and a match and showed you how to 
start a fire, you would not need a bomb calorimeter to prove that it 
was producing energy. Nothing other than that concentrated energy 
release will solve the energy crisis, everything else is a physics 
experiment.

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:08:03 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Capstone Turbine in the SUV
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>
>How about a microturbine hybrid?  Capstone Turbine Corp. will
>join with Hyundai Motor Co. to develop a prototype
>hybrid-electric sport-utility vehicle:
>
>Terry

      I ran into the Capstone Turbine people when the Facilities 
Management Show came to Minneapolis two years ago. They were 
proposing that someone sell and install miniturbines. The idea was to 
generate electricity for peak shaving and use the waste gas to 
produce refrigeration.

       Given the heavy weight companies involved, Minnegasco and 
Capstone's financial backer, I assumed that they knew what they were 
talking about. I spent several days investigating the matter. In 
order to get the efficiency to approach that of a reciprocating 
engine they had to add recupericating stages which drove the price 
up. It was cheaper, and more energy efficient to use a conventional 
engine. I've never been able to figure out why several companies 
would invest so much money in what was clearly a turkey. One of the 
investors in a turbine company was Paul Allen.

      The turbine powered SUV ( Yupmobile ) is a classic example of an 
idiot liberal solution to a problem, over priced and less efficient 
than what they are trying to replace.

Thomas

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Subject: Re: pole shift
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >>
> >>As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
> >>conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is not.  In
> >>this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is suggested, you
> >>reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
> >>original assumption stands and we make no progress.
> >
> >***{As long as my original assumption stands, that's progress, right? :-)
> >--MJ}***
> >
> >>
> >>In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are known to
> >>interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
> >>small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.
> >
> >***{Lunar and solar tides continually flex the crust of the Earth, and
> >probably cause some very gradual slippage of the crust. However, that
> >slippage occurs mostly in a direction parallel to the equator, and thus has
> >little influence on the orientation of the polar axis. (With respect to the
> >plane of the Earth's orbit, Earth's equator is inclined at about 23.5
> >degrees, and the plane of the Moon's orbit is inclined at about 5 degrees.)
> >--MJ}***

As I understand the situation, the Indian plate is going north and hitting the
Asian plate there by making the Himalayan mountains. This is only one of several
possible examples which counter your assumption that motion is mainly along the
equator. The earth, sun, and moon are inclined, but occasionally they line up so
that the gravity effects add.  In addition the earth is also inclined so that this
tug is not uniform on the earth's surface.  Consequently, some land mass are moved
more than others.  These are facts which you need to address.

>
> >
> >I agree, but then point out
> >>that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer under the
> >>crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
> >>assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could trigger a
> >>slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is released
> >>by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
> >>assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this energy
> >>to accumulate. Can you do this?
> >
> >***{A scientific skeptic doesn't have to prove that there is no possible
> >basis for an effect. All he has to do is shoot down the various specific
> >mechanisms that are proposed to account for it.

You take the position of a lawyer who tries to get his client off by proposing any
imaginable explanation for the crime other than that his client did the deed.  The
truth is not important in this situation, only that the jury be sufficiently
confused to buy one of his arguments.  Is the kind of scientific skepticism you
want to promote?

>
> >
> >As for your notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my reaction is that the
> >evidence contradicts such a state of affairs. As I recall, (a) when the
> >Moon passes overhead, the crust typically has risen up by about 50 feet,
> >(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet, (c) when the
> >Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the Earth, the crust has risen by
> >50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet
> >again. That means there is no accumulation.
>
> ***{My recollection that land tides are about 50 feet was from reading I
> did many years ago, and, upon reflection, seemed implausible to me.
> Therefore, in an attempt to verify or falsify that memory, I spent some
> time doing web searches, and came up with the following link:
> http://www.synapses.co.uk/astro/moon1.html. According to this article, land
> tides on Earth are a few centimeters, not 50 feet! Sorry about that. :-(
> --MJ}***

You are forgiven.

>
>
> >
> >Accumulation would require a scenario such as: (a) as the Moon approaches
> >the zenith, the crust bulges up by 50 feet, (b) as the Moon sets, the crust
> >falls back by 35 feet, (c) as the Moon approaches zenith at the antipode,
> >the crust rises up by 50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust falls
> >by 35 feet. Result: the crust would progressively rear 30 feet higher each
> >day until its stress limit was exceeded, after which it would suddenly
> >lurch back toward equilibrium. However, we know this isn't happening
> >because the Apollo astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the Moon, and,
> >by reflecting lasers off of them, the tide-related rise and fall of the
> >crust can be measured to within 30 cm. Nothing in the resulting massive
> >data base supports the notion that tidal energy is being stored in the
> >crust.
>
> ***{The above comments, also based on memory, are correct in terms of the
> 30 cm accuracy, I think. (I read that somewhere fairly recently.) However,
> if land tides are measured in centimeters rather than feet, then the laser
> reflection measurements become incapable of supporting my thesis. However,
> fortunately, I found the following comment in the above listed URL:
>
> "These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is
> very slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the
> Earth rotates.

The crust does not return to the same position because the tectonic plates do
move. Observation counters your statement.

> It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
> These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
> slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
> rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."

One again, this is a conclusion not based facts.  The land masses move both along
the surface of the earth and toward the moon. Nowhere is there information as to
how much of this energy is stored in the crust-magma interface.  I assert that the
measured motions would have been slightly greater had all of the energy imparted
to the crust been released immediately.  Because the measurements do not address
this effect, the possibility that this assertion is correct can not be completely
eliminated.

>
>
> I'm not sure what the supporting measurements are for the above statement,
> but if it is true, then accumulation of tidal stresses in the crust is
> precluded, as I originally said, albeit for a different reason.

Precluded only if you ignore my assertion.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 08:04:00 2000
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >California, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. They say that customers paying
> >PG&E $150 per month will pay $155 for renewable power, $157 for solar
> >power, or $176 for wind power. I would buy it if I lived in one of these
>
>I find this strange, as I would have expected wind power to be considerably
>cheaper than solar.

I have not looked at this closely, but I believe the website said that as 
customers order wind power they will build new wind turbine parks. They 
have to charge more than usual for the capital cost of equipment, because 
wind power is expanding. I think the capital cost of wind equipment is more 
than solar, although long term maintenance is amazingly cheap. The latest 
slow-turning European turbines last forever, it seems. Or perhaps they are 
using the old Luz solar facilities in California?

In many parts of the country, wind power is the same or narrowly cheaper 
than gas turbines. The cost of natural gas has shot up in recent months, 
which will make wind more competitive.

As I mentioned here a few months ago, I was astonished to read that wind 
farms installed off the coast of Denmark in the shallow North Sea actually 
last longer than the wind parks on land. You would think the salt water 
would destroy them, but apparently the steady breeze with minimal gusts 
puts less wear and tear on the motors.


> >states. A 15 percent surcharge to promote innovative technology is okay
> >with me.
>My local electric company offers such an option, however I refuse to take it
>up, on the grounds that it is a pure rip off. Wind power is currently
>competitive or almost so with convention generation technology, where
>installation costs are concerned, and the fuel is free. Hence the power
>should be *cheaper* not dearer than fossil fuel based power.

True in theory, but in fact much of the cost depends upon regulations and 
tax laws about depreciation. Oil and gas producers get a depreciation 
allowance because their wells run dry, which in some cases gives them an 
economic advantage over solar and wind producers who never run out of fuel! 
It is a crazy system.

It seems to me that instead of charging 15 percent extra to people who want 
clean energy, they should charge 5 percent extra to everyone else who wants 
to purchase dirty energy. People should be responsible for cleaning up the 
mess they make.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 08:19:32 2000
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thomas malloy wrote, in his sig I think:

>If I handed you a pile of kindling and a match and showed you how to start 
>a fire, you would not need a bomb calorimeter to prove that it was 
>producing energy. Nothing other than that concentrated energy release will 
>solve the energy crisis, everything else is a physics experiment.

That is not quite true. Hydroelectric and wind power have lower energy 
density than combustion, but they could go a long way toward solving the 
energy crisis. Biomass production has low energy density, yet it could 
solve much of the energy crisis, but I think the environmental cost and the 
impact on food production would be too high.

Earth based solar energy may not be concentrated enough to solve the energy 
crisis economically, but in specific applications solar energy is extremely 
competitive, such as desalination plants in the desert, and the millions of 
rooftop bath-water heaters in Japan.

"Solving the energy crisis" does not necessarily mean eliminating all oil 
consumption. If Americans would reduce energy consumption per dollar of 
production to the levels already attained in Japan, the energy crisis would 
vanish and gasoline prices would again fall to the lowest levels in 
history, where they were a year ago.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 09:14:39 2000
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At 09:07 AM 10/12/00 +0100, thomas malloy wrote:

As you are all aware, Joseph Newman has a website where he is selling 
prototypes of just this sort of machine. He asserts that it produces excess 
energy. Has anyone tested this machine? Scott, have you or Hal talked to 
Joe about testing this motor?

Yes, I am aware of Newman's recent offerings.  Newman does have some test 
results which he holds up as evidence of the machine's o-u performance.  We 
have offered to measure the power balance of his machine, free of charge or 
obligation.  He does not appear to be interested.

Frankly, I expect that a proper test of Newman's machine would show it NOT 
to be  an o-u device.  I wish he would accept our offer and participate in 
the tests.  Then we could settle this issue once and for all.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

...  notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my
reaction is that the EVIDENCE contradicts such a state of
affairs. As I recall,

(a) when the Moon passes overhead,
the crust typically has risen up by about a few centimeters,

(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by a few centimeters,

(c) when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters again,

and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by
a few centimeters again. That means there is no accumulation.

Hi All,

I'm enjoying the various mechanisms which are proposed to
explain hou the Earth's core can change rotational velocity,
and/or the crust can change rotational velocity, resulting in such
things as the crust sliding around relative to the core or even
the Earth "standing still".

I would find these proposals much more interesting if there
were any EVIDENCE that such events actually occurred.  Surely
these events would have produced wide-spread volcanism.  So
again I ask where are the sulfate-rich layers in the Greenland
ice cores that correspond to these events?

While I'm asking questions, although this is slightly
off-topic, I would appreciate a good explanation of why 
"when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters ..."?

Thanks, Jack Smith


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Subject: Asymptotic progress problem
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I wrote:

 >"Solving the energy crisis" does not necessarily mean eliminating all oil 
consumption. If
 >Americans would reduce energy consumption per dollar of production to the 
levels already
 >attained in Japan, the energy crisis would vanish and gasoline prices 
would again fall to
 >the lowest levels in history, where they were a year ago.

This brings up the "asymptotic progress problem" I have been meaning to 
discuss. Progress in energy conservation, efficiency and production cause 
an energy glut, falling prices, and the impetus to make more progress or 
search for a comprehensive solution disappears. This is true in any 
economic sphere, but it seems to be the iron law in energy, and 
automobiles. Every 10 or 20 years there is another so-called energy crisis. 
In response we make just enough progress to usher in another glut, and 
another round of consumer satiation and technological stagnation. Radical 
innovations like the Luz solar energy installations never get a chance. 
They fall in cost rapidly, but just as they close in and become 
competitive, conventional energy costs again fall to unprecedented levels. 
In computers, bubble memory and three-dimensional holographic memory made 
tremendous strides, and in theory they were ahead of hard disks and 
semiconductor RAM, but hard disk costs fall so quickly and so inexorably, 
bubble memory never made an impact, and researchers in holographic memory 
cannot attract enough funding to bring the technology out of the lab.

Sometimes, commercial breakthroughs are made despite stiff competition, 
even when is no immediate economic incentive for them. Take the transition 
from minicomputers to microcomputers, starting in 1978. At that time, the 
minicomputer market was far from saturated, and companies like Data General 
were making money so easily, they never bothered to build microcomputers. 
Microcomputers prevailed because they had many advantages from the user's 
point of view. They cost less per unit, although they were not as 
cost-effective. (They cost more per megabyte, but they were sold in smaller 
units.) They were more fun, and more flexible, so people soon used them for 
tasks that would have been impossible with minicomputers. A radical 
innovation like cold fusion may start off being more expensive than 
conventional energy, but it will allow new ways of using energy. This may 
not appeal to customers directly. Most consumers are not looking around for 
new ways to use energy, except in cell phones and portable computers. But 
corporations building undersea telephone repeaters and doctors inventing 
prosthetic devices will be thrilled. If CF can be made reliable enough to 
serve in niche markets, it will soon fall in price and take over mainstream 
markets.

- Jed

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

 >So, according to Jones there is "more energy" in a vehicle - vehicle crash,
> >than a crash of a single vehicle into a wall
>
>***{While that was not the main point, it happens to be *obviously* true.
>Remember: KE = (1/2)mV^2. If m1 and V1 are the mass and velocity of your
>vehicle, and m2 and V2 are the mass and velocity of the concrete wall,
>respectively, then since V2 = 0, all of the kinetic energy of the collison
>comes from your vehicle. If you crash head-on into another car at the same
>speed, however, then m2 and V2 represent additional kinetic energy, because
>V2 is *not* equal to zero. --MJ}***

I think these equations only apply an ideal situation with bodies on a 
frictionless surface, in a totally inelastic collision, where all the 
energy is absorbed by the two colliding bodies. In the real world, the 
concrete wall is part of the earth, like the wall of a cliff. Its mass is 
effectively infinite; it does not bounce away measurably. When you run into 
a stationary SUV at 60 mph, it will absorb part of the energy as it bounces 
away. When you sit still with the brakes off and let the SUV plow into you 
at 60 mph, that works the same way as when you plow into it. Jones' notion 
that the kinetic energy "comes from you" when you are moving makes no sense 
to me. Suppose the bodies were in outer space. There would be no way of 
telling which was moving and which was stationary, and in fact the whole 
question is meaningless. The kinetic energy comes from the relative motion 
between the two bodies and the combined mass of both; neither of them 
"carries it." When they collide, they absorb equal amounts of energy. The 
lighter body ricochets off a greater distance.

It takes more energy to accelerate the SUV than my smaller car, but I do 
not see how this affects the outcome of an elastic collision from my point 
of view. (A real auto collision is, of course, partly inelastic.) If I am 
standing on a dock in New York and the QE2 ocean liner whacks into me at 3 
mph just before it stops, that does not feel any different than if I 
accidentally walk into the QE2. I do not fall back any farther, or sustain 
any worse injury. A little energy is expended, and both the QE2 and I 
bounce back, and the event is over. Naturally, if the ship keeps moving and 
grinds me into a wall, or it keeps going until the friction from my 
dragging heels stop it, expending ALL of its momentum on me, that's a 
different story. I suppose an auto collision is partly inelastic, and most 
of the energy from both bodies is used up, so the additional energy 
required to accelerate the SUV would mean there is more damage.

To take another example, when a fly whacks into me at 20 mph, it will 
usually survive, because very little energy is expended in the collision. 
When I am riding on a bicycle at 20 mph, and I hit the fly, I do not 
pulverize it just because I am the one who was accelerated relative to 
earth, and it took a lot more energy to get me moving than it would take 
the fly to crank up to 20 mph.

In any case, the mass of a concrete wall is effectively infinite, so it 
seems to me this makes collision with it at any given speed the worst 
collision you can arrange. Whether my car is going 60 mph, or the wall and 
the entire planet earth attached to it is moving toward me in a stationary 
car at 60 mph, the results will be exactly the same, and they will be worse 
than any collision with another car.

- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
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"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:

> Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> ...  notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my
> reaction is that the EVIDENCE contradicts such a state of
> affairs. As I recall,
>
> (a) when the Moon passes overhead,
> the crust typically has risen up by about a few centimeters,
>
> (b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by a few centimeters,
>
> (c) when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
> Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters again,
>
> and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by
> a few centimeters again. That means there is no accumulation.
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm enjoying the various mechanisms which are proposed to
> explain how the Earth's core can change rotational velocity,
> and/or the crust can change rotational velocity, resulting in such
> things as the crust sliding around relative to the core or even
> the Earth "standing still".
>
> I would find these proposals much more interesting if there
> were any EVIDENCE that such events actually occurred.  Surely
> these events would have produced wide-spread volcanism.  So
> again I ask where are the sulfate-rich layers in the Greenland
> ice cores that correspond to these events?

According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
these records.  Perhaps one of the knowledgeable readers can give more
detail.

>
>
> While I'm asking questions, although this is slightly
> off-topic, I would appreciate a good explanation of why
> "when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
> Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters ..."?

My understanding is that the crust shows the same behavior as the water
with maximum displacement occurring when the moon and sun are on the same
side and the minimum when they are on opposite sides.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 13:28:55 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:29:58 -0400
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With  permission from Michael Mandeville,
I have forwarded him a copy of all messages
in this and related threads sent before
Thursday, October 12, 2000 4:34 PM.
He has indicated that he my rejoin vortex-l
to contribute to this discussion.
Regards,
George Holz                

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 14:56:54 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:56:00 -0400
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Frankly, I expect that a proper test of Newman's machine would show it NOT 
> to be  an o-u device. 
-
It is hard for me to understand what kind of measurement error
he could be making in the latest tests. I have used air dynamometers
made with model airplane propellers very successfully in 
measuring small motor output. There are no details about the
electrical measurements, but presumably analog meters were
used to measure DC voltage and current input. He is measuring
300 W in and 1,119 W out to the calibrated air dynamometer.
What could be responsible for this large a measurement error?
 -
> I wish he would accept our offer and participate in 
> the tests.  Then we could settle this issue once and for all.
-
Indeed, but perhaps you should approach him again, just
verifying the power input should be sufficient to justify
further investigation. Perhaps J.L.Naudin would loan you
his Newman style prototype for evaluation.
Newman is now located at:
11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
(480) 657-3722
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 16:30:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:29:43 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
In-reply-to: <012201c03497$37a39f70$0c6cd626 varisys.com>
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On 12 Oct 2000, at 17:56, George Holz wrote:
>...
>There are no details about the
> electrical measurements, but presumably analog meters were
> used to measure DC voltage and current input. He is measuring
> 300 W in and 1,119 W out to the calibrated air dynamometer.
> What could be responsible for this large a measurement error?
...
> Newman is now located at:
> 11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
> Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
> (480) 657-3722
> -
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> 

Of course no measurement details are given! We are asked to 
believe 300W in and 1119 W out. Any high school kid could take 
such a setup and make a self running generator in a week. 
Newman hasn't done it. Why? (I leave that as an exercise for the 
interested reader.)

To repeat an assertion I made a couple of years ago: Newman will 
NEVER accept Scott Little's offer, for obvious reasons.

--Lynn

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Subject: Re: pole shift
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Jack Smith wrote:

I would appreciate a good explanation of why
"when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters ..."?

Ed Storms wrote:

My understanding is that the crust shows the same
behavior as the water with maximum displacement
occurring when the moon and sun are on the same
side and the minimum when they are on opposite sides.

Hi Ed,

I agree that when the Sun and Moon
are on the same side of Earth, or on opposite sides,
a bulge (either water or crust in general) occurs 
on the side of the Earth opposite the Moon.  My
question refers to this "opposite bulge" regardless
of the position of the Sun.

I would like more of your thoughts on why this bulge occurs.

Jack Smith



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 19:24:46 2000
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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George Holz wrote:
>Scott Little wrote:
>> 
>> Frankly, I expect that a proper test of Newman's machine would show it NOT 
>> to be  an o-u device. 
>
>It is hard for me to understand what kind of measurement error
>he could be making in the latest tests. I have used air dynamometers
>made with model airplane propellers very successfully in 
>measuring small motor output. There are no details about the
>electrical measurements, but presumably analog meters were
>used to measure DC voltage and current input. He is measuring
>300 W in and 1,119 W out to the calibrated air dynamometer.
>What could be responsible for this large a measurement error?

As I recall his "air dynamometer" is a large exhaust fan (meant
for exhausting bad air from an area inside a building through
a possibly long duct and against a reasonable head of pressure
due to the difficulty of the air circulating back from outside
to inside the building).

His "calibration" (1,119 W) is the figure in the manufacturers
specs given as a recommended motor size to use in combination
with the fan (ie one that will do the job with a reasonable
safety margin for most ducting situations).

His comparison "measurement" (300 W) is the power required
using his special motor to spin the fan in an open environment
where the exhaust side can simply short circuit back to the
sucking side (ie in a totally different situation for which
the recommended motor spec was given).

This was the situation as I recall it last time I looked.
Maybe my memory fails or maybe he has changed something
since.  But I think it should answer your question.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 19:33:15 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Yes Jed, at a given velocity difference a vehicle/wall collision would 
presumably be worse... but, in a vehicle/vehicle collision, in a head on 
collision the velocity difference would be doubled, because each vehicle is 
moving.

Backtracking slightly, I know that there are crash tests done for side 
impacts, by literally crashing one vehicle into the side of another.

Of course all crash tests represent "ideal" conditions, reality is always 
different.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 19:42:24 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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I propose that the repeated rising and falling of different sections of the 
crust on a daily basis could be storing energy in currents in the molten 
layers beneath.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 20:29:37 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:27:08 -0400
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From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Can quantum mechanics + thermodynamics = perpetual motion?
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http://www.sciencenews.org/20001007/bob1.asp

>Breaking the Law
> Can quantum mechanics + thermodynamics = perpetual motion?
>
> By Peter Weiss
>
> Hopeful inventors have for centuries tried to create
> machines that would run forever: gizmos such as wheels
> that turn unceasingly with no motor to drive them and
> engines that endlessly exploit the heat in the oceans to
> power ships.
>
> The consequences of devising such perpetual motion
> machines would be wondrous because these tools would
> unleash energy without consuming fuel.
>
> Despite the machines' appeal, no one has ever succeeded in
> making one. Physicists attribute that miserable track record
> to the fact that the devices would defy fundamental laws of
> thermodynamics. Given that scientific lawlessness, most
> researchers don't give perpetual motion half a thought.
>
> Recently, however, several groups of scientists have taken
> a fresh look at the concept. They propose that the
> peculiarities of quantum mechanics permit what seem to be
> violations of one of the fundamental laws-at least on a
> microscopic scale.
>
> Quantum theory, which stands out already for its bizarre
> consequences, describes the behavior of extremely small
> objects such as atoms and other elementary particles. If
> verified, the new findings in the realm of quantum
> thermodynamics might indicate that a certain class of
> perpetual motion machines is, in fact, possible.



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Subject: vortex tubes
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http://www.exair.com/vortextube/vt_page.htm

>What Is a Vortex Tube?
> A low cost, reliable, maintenance-free solution to a variety of
> industrial spot cooling problems. Using an ordinary supply of compressed
> air as a power source, vortex tubes create two streams of air, one hot and
> one cold, with no moving parts. Vortex tubes can produce:
>
>          Temperatures from -50° to +260°F (-46° to +127°C)
>
>          Flow rates from 1 to 150 SCFM (28 to 4248 SLPM)
>
>          Refrigeration up to 10,200 Btu/hr. (2571 Kcal/hr.)

http://www.exair.com/vortextube/vt_theory.htm

>The vortex tube was invented quite by accident in 1928. George Ranque, a
>French physics student, was experimenting with a vortex-type pump he had
>developed when he noticed warm air exhausting from one end, and cold air
>from the other. Ranque soon forgot about his pump and started a small firm
>to exploit the commercial potential for this strange device that produced
>hot and cold air with no moving parts. However, it soon failed and the
>vortex tube slipped into obscurity until 1945 when Rudolph Hilsch, a
>German physicist, published a widely read scientific paper on the device.
>
>Much earlier, the great nineteenth century physicist, James Clerk Maxwell
>postulated that since heat involves the movement of molecules, we might
>someday be able to get hot and cold air from the same device with the help
>of a "friendly little demon" who would sort out and separate the hot and
>cold molecules of air.
>
>Thus, the vortex tube has been variously known as the "Ranque Vortex
>Tube", the "Hilsch Tube", the "Ranque-Hilsch Tube", and "Maxwell's Demon".
>By any name, it has in recent years gained acceptance as a simple,
>reliable and low cost answer to a wide variety of industrial spot cooling
>problems.


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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 05:00:49 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:52:36 -0700, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Mitchell Jones wrote:

>> It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
>> These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
>> slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
>> rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."
>
>One again, this is a conclusion not based facts.  The land masses move both along
>the surface of the earth and toward the moon. Nowhere is there information as to
>how much of this energy is stored in the crust-magma interface.  I assert that the
>measured motions would have been slightly greater had all of the energy imparted
>to the crust been released immediately.  Because the measurements do not address
>this effect, the possibility that this assertion is correct can not be completely
>eliminated.

Please remember that the Earth is a fluid spheroid.  Yes, the crust
rises due to tidal effects of the sun and moon.  But so do the
underlying layers.  The sun's and moon's gravity cause the whole earth
to become very slightly elongated in a direction pointing to the
sun/moon gravity vector (or, if you use the "push" idea of gravity,
there's a greater push force on the sides of the Earth away from the
sun/moon vector causing the elongation).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 12 22:26:43 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: space water
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:25:27 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Most of the solar wind protons that hit the atmosphere must eventually
combine with oxygen to form water. I wonder how much it would add up to over
the eons?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 00:02:11 2000
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References: 
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 .00ba6270 earthtech.org> <4.3.2.7.0.20001012110216.03847a80@earthtech.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:35:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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>Scott Little wrote:
>>
>> Frankly, I expect that a proper test of Newman's machine would show it NOT
>> to be  an o-u device.
>-
>It is hard for me to understand what kind of measurement error
>he could be making in the latest tests. I have used air dynamometers
>made with model airplane propellers very successfully in
>measuring small motor output. There are no details about the
>electrical measurements, but presumably analog meters were
>used to measure DC voltage and current input. He is measuring
>300 W in and 1,119 W out to the calibrated air dynamometer.

***{What was your source for this information? All I could come up with was
the following promotional blurb:

"FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE --- August 11, 2000

            To: The Good People of the World

            I just received a telephone call from Hans (in Germany), an
Electrical
            Engineer who purchased COLLECTIBLE ENERGY MACHINE
            UNIT #4. (see complete auction details further down this page)

            Hans excitedly said: "I have your 4th Unit operating at 1,000
RPMs with a
            transformer connected to capacitors and then to your 4th Unit.
There is
            MORE power coming from the capacitors that is going into them
from the
            transformer!"

            Power to the People! "

I reached the above by following the links at Jean-Louis Naudin's website.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>What could be responsible for this large a measurement error?
> -
>> I wish he would accept our offer and participate in
>> the tests.  Then we could settle this issue once and for all.
>-
>Indeed, but perhaps you should approach him again, just
>verifying the power input should be sufficient to justify
>further investigation. Perhaps J.L.Naudin would loan you
>his Newman style prototype for evaluation.

***{This is an excellent idea. --MJ}***

>Newman is now located at:
>11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
>Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
>(480) 657-3722
>-
>George Holz                george varisys.com
>Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
>Bound Brook, NJ          08805

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:55:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >>As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
>> >>conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is
>>not.  In
>> >>this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is
>>suggested, you
>> >>reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
>> >>original assumption stands and we make no progress.
>> >
>> >***{As long as my original assumption stands, that's progress, right? :-)
>> >--MJ}***
>> >
>> >>
>> >>In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are
>>known to
>> >>interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
>> >>small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.
>> >
>> >***{Lunar and solar tides continually flex the crust of the Earth, and
>> >probably cause some very gradual slippage of the crust. However, that
>> >slippage occurs mostly in a direction parallel to the equator, and thus has
>> >little influence on the orientation of the polar axis. (With respect to the
>> >plane of the Earth's orbit, Earth's equator is inclined at about 23.5
>> >degrees, and the plane of the Moon's orbit is inclined at about 5 degrees.)
>> >--MJ}***
>
>As I understand the situation, the Indian plate is going north and hitting the
>Asian plate there by making the Himalayan mountains. This is only one of
>several
>possible examples which counter your assumption that motion is mainly
>along the
>equator.

***{I never said that. You proposed the gravitational force of the Moon and
the Sun as the mechanism underlying these hypothetical pole shifts. In
response, I said that any crust slippage caused by tidal action would be
mainly parallel to the equator. That is simply an unarguable fact. (Add up
the vectors.) --MJ}***

The earth, sun, and moon are inclined, but occasionally they line up so
>that the gravity effects add.

***{Even when they are lined up, the rotation of the Earth ensures, by
simple vector addition, that they torque the crust in a direction that is
approximately parallel to the equator. It is only because the polar axis of
the Earth is not exactly perpendicular to the plane of its orbit, that the
tiny component of force which is not parallel to the equator exists. Thus
this is not a plausible mechanism to account for the sorts of sudden amd
large polar shifts that you propose. --MJ}***

In addition the earth is also inclined so that this
>tug is not uniform on the earth's surface.  Consequently, some land mass
>are moved
>more than others.  These are facts which you need to address.

***{The mechanism underlying continental drift remains somewhat
controversial, but in my view the Earth is sweeping up thousands of tons of
space debris every day, and, as a consequence, is getting larger. As the
weight of the new material accumulates on the crust, the tectonic plates
sink more deeply into the magma, and melt away on their bottom margins due
to the rising temperatures. The result is a  continual upwelling of new
material, which fills the widening cracks between continents and solidifies
on the seafloor, adding to the crust. Each such rising plume of molten rock
spreads out when it reaches the surface, exerting a horizontal force which
pushes adjacent tectonic plates away from one another. The direction of
that push, however, is *not* necessarily parallel to the equator. The plume
rising up under the Indian ocean, for example, is pushing the Indian plate
northward into the Asian plate, thereby giving birth to the Himalayas. It
is the vector sum of all these pushes on the various tectonic plates that
causes the location of the magnetic pole to slowly drift around. The
pattern of that drifting over the last few hundred million years is mapped
out at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html, and appears
to be very gradual. These data support the continental drift theory, and
show no evidence of the huge and catastrophic shifts that Michael
Mandeville has apparently proposed. --MJ}***

>> >
>> >I agree, but then point out
>> >>that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer
>>under the
>> >>crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
>> >>assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could
>>trigger a
>> >>slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is
>>released
>> >>by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
>> >>assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this
>>energy
>> >>to accumulate. Can you do this?
>> >
>> >***{A scientific skeptic doesn't have to prove that there is no possible
>> >basis for an effect. All he has to do is shoot down the various specific
>> >mechanisms that are proposed to account for it.
>
>You take the position of a lawyer who tries to get his client off by
>proposing any
>imaginable explanation for the crime other than that his client did the
>deed.  The
>truth is not important in this situation, only that the jury be sufficiently
>confused to buy one of his arguments.  Is the kind of scientific
>skepticism you
>want to promote?

***{Relax, Ed. You wanted to kick the idea around, and so we are kicking it
around. It's just getting kicked a little harder than you expected, that's
all. :-) In any case, it is you, not I, who is straining credibility to its
limits, in an attempt to persuade this particular dog to hunt. --MJ}***

>> >
>> >As for your notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my reaction is that the
>> >evidence contradicts such a state of affairs. As I recall, (a) when the
>> >Moon passes overhead, the crust typically has risen up by about 50 feet,
>> >(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet, (c) when the
>> >Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the Earth, the crust has risen by
>> >50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet
>> >again. That means there is no accumulation.
>>
>> ***{My recollection that land tides are about 50 feet was from reading I
>> did many years ago, and, upon reflection, seemed implausible to me.
>> Therefore, in an attempt to verify or falsify that memory, I spent some
>> time doing web searches, and came up with the following link:
>> http://www.synapses.co.uk/astro/moon1.html. According to this article, land
>> tides on Earth are a few centimeters, not 50 feet! Sorry about that. :-(
>> --MJ}***
>
>You are forgiven.

***{Oddly, as I have continued to think about this, the "few centimeters"
notion has also begun to seem implausible. Does anybody in the group know
of an authoritative reference that could definitively answer this question?
A reference to a specific measuring procedure and the data collected by
that procedure would be nice. --MJ}***

>> >
>> >Accumulation would require a scenario such as: (a) as the Moon approaches
>> >the zenith, the crust bulges up by 50 feet, (b) as the Moon sets, the crust
>> >falls back by 35 feet, (c) as the Moon approaches zenith at the antipode,
>> >the crust rises up by 50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust falls
>> >by 35 feet. Result: the crust would progressively rear 30 feet higher each
>> >day until its stress limit was exceeded, after which it would suddenly
>> >lurch back toward equilibrium. However, we know this isn't happening
>> >because the Apollo astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the Moon, and,
>> >by reflecting lasers off of them, the tide-related rise and fall of the
>> >crust can be measured to within 30 cm. Nothing in the resulting massive
>> >data base supports the notion that tidal energy is being stored in the
>> >crust.
>>
>> ***{The above comments, also based on memory, are correct in terms of the
>> 30 cm accuracy, I think. (I read that somewhere fairly recently.) However,
>> if land tides are measured in centimeters rather than feet, then the laser
>> reflection measurements become incapable of supporting my thesis. However,
>> fortunately, I found the following comment in the above listed URL:
>>
>> "These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is
>> very slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the
>> Earth rotates.
>
>The crust does not return to the same position because the tectonic plates do
>move. Observation counters your statement.

***{No it doesn't, because I was talking about the effects of tidal forces.
Tidal forces are not what drives the tectonic plates. Their movement is
caused by plumes of magma welling up from below, as I explained above.
--MJ}***

>
>> It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
>> These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
>> slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
>> rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."
>
>One again, this is a conclusion not based facts.  The land masses move
>both along
>the surface of the earth and toward the moon. Nowhere is there information
>as to
>how much of this energy is stored in the crust-magma interface.  I assert
>that the
>measured motions would have been slightly greater had all of the energy
>imparted
>to the crust been released immediately.  Because the measurements do not
>address
>this effect, the possibility that this assertion is correct can not be
>completely
>eliminated.

***{Come on, Ed: the tectonic plates are floating on *liquid*. How can the
interface between a solid and a liquid store gravitational potential
energy? The plates are of lighter material than the liquid on which they
float and, by Archimede's principle, will sink until they displace an
amount of liquid equal to their weights. The only thing that prevents them
from discharging *all* of their potential energy in this way is their
tendency to stick against the solid material of adjacent plates. For
example, the North American plate is riding up over the Pacific plate,
along the California coast, and as the Pacific plate melts and subducts
beneath it, the North American plate settles downward, accompanied by
earthquakes. (See http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html .) This is
the only process by which gravitational potential energy can be stored in a
tectonic plate, and the storage is at the interface between colliding
plates, not at the interface between the plate and the magma beneath it.

Moreover, the plate-to-plate interface is not suited to the type of hidden
storage of energy that Mandeville's theory requires. To make use of it he
would have to allege, for example, that the North American plate has ridden
up to a really dangerous level above the Pacific plate. Unfortunately, the
sort of stored energy you need would have Los Angeles (which is on the
eastern edge of the Pacific plate) perched at the bottom of a cliff several
thousand feet high, a state of affairs that clearly does not exist. Indeed,
about the only thing I can think of that would offer the kind of hidden,
stored energy that this idea requires would be the sudden slippage of a
major icecap into the sea. But that's a very old and completely different
theory.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>> I'm not sure what the supporting measurements are for the above statement,
>> but if it is true, then accumulation of tidal stresses in the crust is
>> precluded, as I originally said, albeit for a different reason.
>
>Precluded only if you ignore my assertion.

***{Or if your assertion is incorrect. :-) --MJ}***

>
>Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 00:29:55 2000
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:34:32 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 8:52 AM 10/12/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>
>While I'm asking questions, although this is slightly
>off-topic, I would appreciate a good explanation of why
>"when the Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the
>Earth, the crust has risen by a few centimeters ..."?

I think a good short answer to your question is "centrifugal force," or
more precisely the force of inirtia, makes the back side of the earth
appear to be raised.

The earth is actually STRETCHED along the earth-moon axis, due to the
opposing gravitational and centrifugal forces.  Neither force is constant
nor exactly opposed throughout the entire interior of the earth, since
gravity is a 1/r^2 force and the centrifugal force, which matches the
centripital force, is m v^2/r, thus a net force gradient is created which
stretches the earth.  A similar net force stretches the moon, but the
bulges of the moon don't rotate relative to the moon (much) since the same
side of the moon (nearly) always faces the earth.

This principle of a stretching tidal force clearly demonstrates that
Einstein's equivalence of gravitation and acceleration only applies to a
point, not to a volume, for the gravitational force from an isolated
spherical body can always be detected with a sufficiently sensitive
instrument, due to the tidal force which stretches solid things in its
gravitational field.  The larger gravitational force on the closer portions
of the solid test body is transmitted, via the electrostatic force of
various atomic bonds inside the test body volume, to the furthest mass of
the test body, which resists, via inirtia, the larger force applied to the
closer portions of the test body, thus stretching the body.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 01:09:46 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:13:48 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic
primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do
they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current.  His data
looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that
were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of
electrolytes.  However, I managed to produce a brief test of his
hypothesis, even with the very low primary current that results from using
low conductivity electrolyte conductors, by bumping up the frequency to
about 1 MHz and using a ferrite flyback transformer core to couple the
primary and secondary coils,  both of which had a low turn count.

The ferrite core used for the test had a cross sectional area of very
roughly 1 cm^2, and consisted of two "C" sections, each about 4 cm to a
side on the outside.   The secondary was wrapped with about 10 turns of
copper stranded test probe wire, which is insulated to about 10 kV.  The
primary was wrapped with 5 turns of test probe wire and 5 turns of 1/8" ID
plastic tubing (from Eagle Hardware, now Lowe's) filled with salt water.
The salt water was made by adding a couple tablespoons of salt to a 4 oz
glass of warm water.  There were still traces of magnesium sulfate in the
plastic tubing from a prior experiment.  The tubing length was about 2
feet.

Salt water was siphoned into the tubing and then the tubing ends were
closed by jamming #10 ground wire into the ends.  The green plastic
insulation just fit inside the plastic tubing and made a water tight seal
with the plastic tubing.  The #10 wire was stripped a couple inches in
order to assure good electrical contact with the electrolyte.  The
resistance of the electrolyte tube was about 14 k ohms.

The frequency was selected so as to get a good reliable and readable signal
out of the secondary.  The input was about 2 volts pk-pk, and was sin wave
output from a function generator.  There was a significant capacitive
coupling between the primary and secondary, but the output voltage dropped
by about 70 percent when the ground lead was removed, indicating a
significant magnetic coupling.

Unfortunately, the two primaries could not meaningfully be placed in series
due to a very strong capacitive coupling between them.  That approach,
which I suggested earlier, would require use of high voltages and low
frequency input, and thus high power and a bigger core than I have
available.

The resitance of the electrolytic primary was measured at 9.6 k ohms, but
it was varying.  It prior was measured at 14 k ohms, but still had some
bubbles in it, which were cleared before the experiments began.  In order
to simulate the resistance of the electrolytic coil, a 50 k pot was set to
9.6 k and placed in series with the copper primary.

The copper primary and the electrolytic primaries were energized separately
at 1050 kHz.  Both produced similar output.  The electrolytic coil produced
228 mV out, the copper produced 196 mV out, which is equal output withing
the range of accuracy of the experiment.  The largest uncontrollable
variance was due to the changing resistance of the electrolytic coil.

This is a null result.  At a range of 500 - 1000 kHz the hypothesis that
electrolytic primaries do not induce a current in secondaries similar to
that induced by metallic primaries is false.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 01:53:22 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:51:52 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:34:32 -0800:
[snip]
>gravitational field.  The larger gravitational force on the closer portions
>of the solid test body is transmitted, via the electrostatic force of
>various atomic bonds inside the test body volume, to the furthest mass of
>the test body, which resists, via inirtia, the larger force applied to the
>closer portions of the test body, thus stretching the body.
[snip]
Ok, but why does it result in an elliptical shape rather than an egg shape?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 05:39:39 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:44:01 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> I propose that the repeated rising and falling of different sections of the
> crust on a daily basis could be storing energy in currents in the molten
> layers beneath.

Which is also the alleged heating method for Europa.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 06:22:57 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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>A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic
>primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do
>they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current.

***{No surprise there. The initial surge of current in the primary, when
the switch is closed, will produce a brief and oppositely directed surge in
the secondary, but as soon as the current in the primary settles into a
steady state, the current in the secondary will cease. The reason: the flux
lines in the magnetic field produced by the primary are no longer in
motion, and, thus, cease to influence the motion of the electrons in the
secondary. (If a steady magnetic field could induce a current in a wire
that was not moving, we could use a permanent magnet to produce perpetual
motion.) --MJ}***

His data
>looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that
>were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of
>electrolytes.

***{Exactly. This was the weird part of his result. If classical electromag
is correct, a 50 Hz current in the primary should produce a current in the
secondary, regardless of whether it is a flow of positive ions in an
electrolyte, or a flow of negative electrons in copper wire. If it doesn't,
something odd is going on. --MJ}***

However, I managed to produce a brief test of his
>hypothesis, even with the very low primary current that results from using
>low conductivity electrolyte conductors, by bumping up the frequency to
>about 1 MHz and using a ferrite flyback transformer core to couple the
>primary and secondary coils,  both of which had a low turn count.
>
>The ferrite core used for the test had a cross sectional area of very
>roughly 1 cm^2, and consisted of two "C" sections, each about 4 cm to a
>side on the outside.   The secondary was wrapped with about 10 turns of
>copper stranded test probe wire, which is insulated to about 10 kV.  The
>primary was wrapped with 5 turns of test probe wire and 5 turns of 1/8" ID
>plastic tubing (from Eagle Hardware, now Lowe's) filled with salt water.
>The salt water was made by adding a couple tablespoons of salt to a 4 oz
>glass of warm water.  There were still traces of magnesium sulfate in the
>plastic tubing from a prior experiment.  The tubing length was about 2
>feet.
>
>Salt water was siphoned into the tubing and then the tubing ends were
>closed by jamming #10 ground wire into the ends.  The green plastic
>insulation just fit inside the plastic tubing and made a water tight seal
>with the plastic tubing.  The #10 wire was stripped a couple inches in
>order to assure good electrical contact with the electrolyte.  The
>resistance of the electrolyte tube was about 14 k ohms.
>
>The frequency was selected so as to get a good reliable and readable signal
>out of the secondary.  The input was about 2 volts pk-pk, and was sin wave
>output from a function generator.  There was a significant capacitive
>coupling between the primary and secondary, but the output voltage dropped
>by about 70 percent when the ground lead was removed, indicating a
>significant magnetic coupling.
>
>Unfortunately, the two primaries could not meaningfully be placed in series
>due to a very strong capacitive coupling between them.  That approach,
>which I suggested earlier, would require use of high voltages and low
>frequency input, and thus high power and a bigger core than I have
>available.
>
>The resitance of the electrolytic primary was measured at 9.6 k ohms, but
>it was varying.  It prior was measured at 14 k ohms, but still had some
>bubbles in it, which were cleared before the experiments began.  In order
>to simulate the resistance of the electrolytic coil, a 50 k pot was set to
>9.6 k and placed in series with the copper primary.
>
>The copper primary and the electrolytic primaries were energized separately
>at 1050 kHz.  Both produced similar output.  The electrolytic coil produced
>228 mV out, the copper produced 196 mV out, which is equal output withing
>the range of accuracy of the experiment.  The largest uncontrollable
>variance was due to the changing resistance of the electrolytic coil.
>
>This is a null result.  At a range of 500 - 1000 kHz the hypothesis that
>electrolytic primaries do not induce a current in secondaries similar to
>that induced by metallic primaries is false.

***{As classical electromagnetic theory would predict. Good work, Horace.
--MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 06:29:25 2000
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At 01:35 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:


>***{What was your source for this information?

http://www.josephnewman.com/test_results.html





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 07:22:06 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:20:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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>At 01:35 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>
>>***{What was your source for this information?
>
>http://www.josephnewman.com/test_results.html

***{Hi Scott. Thanks for the link. I read that material, and found it to be
very impressive. I would say that John Winterflood is grasping at straws
when he claims that the data from Dayton were collected inside a ducting
system of unknown dimensions rather than in open air. (Why would they do
that? Why supply data to customers that will force them to needlessly
complicate their testing setup? Such a notion flies in the face of common
sense.) Moreover, as I explained here long ago, by my theory of
electromagnetics, the concept employed by Newman ought to be workable. That
doesn't mean his specific embodiment has to work, of course. That is a
matter which will have to be settled in the laboratory. Thus my question
for you: are you also impressed by this demonstration? What do you think of
the idea of borrowing Jean-Louis' Newman machine and checking it out?

By the way: I can't resist pointing out that the outlines of the scheme by
which Newman alleges that his technology is being ripped off (i.e., that it
is being manufactured by government contractors for use in the military) is
virtually identical to the method by which Burnelli was ripped off. Since I
doubt that Newman has even heard of Burnelli, this is either a bizarre
coincidence, or else we *really do* live under fascism, and it *really
does* work the way I have been saying it works. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 07:25:41 2000
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Adam Cox wrote:

>Yes Jed, at a given velocity difference a vehicle/wall collision would 
>presumably be worse... but, in a vehicle/vehicle collision, in a head on 
>collision the velocity difference would be doubled, because each vehicle 
>is moving.

No, I was comparing one vehicle colliding with a wall at 60 mph versus two 
cars colliding (one light, one heavy), each moving 30 mph. Or, if you like, 
two cars in outer space heading on the same vector, one at 10,000 mph, and 
the other coming up behind it at 10,060 mph. It seems to me the damage 
should be the same in all three cases.

I think Jones is trying to make the point that it took more energy to 
accelerate the heavy and light car up to 30 mph each compared to the energy 
required to accelerate the light car up to 60 mph, but somehow his claim 
does not compute. As I said in my imaginary example, when the QE2 smacks 
into me at 3 mph, it does not pulverize me despite the enormous amount of 
energy it takes to accelerate the QE2. In fact, it does not do any more 
damage to me than I would do to myself walking into a wall at 3 mph.

In any case, Jones' original claim was that the safety statistics are based 
on crash tests, which is nonsense. They are based on actual data from 
accidents. At least, the ones I am familiar with are. Those numbers show 
that SUVs are somewhat less safe than conventionally shaped midsize and 
large automobiles, mainly because they roll over, according to Terry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 07:48:21 2000
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At 09:20 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >http://www.josephnewman.com/test_results.html
>
>***{Hi Scott. Thanks for the link. I read that material, and found it to be
>very impressive. I would say that John Winterflood is grasping at straws
>when he claims that the data from Dayton were collected inside a ducting
>system of unknown dimensions rather than in open air. (Why would they do
>that? Why supply data to customers that will force them to needlessly
>complicate their testing setup?

The fan is not sold by Grainger's as a dynamometer.  It's simply a 
replacement blade for their large industrial exhaust fans which are ducted 
and, in fact, are usually working against a measurable pressure head.  The 
fan is described here:

http://www.grainger.com/cgi-bin/ngs?534284YXkk3623kk3C200

John is correct that the blade spinning freely out in the open will require 
significantly less power to drive.  He is also correct in that the hp-rpm 
data that Newman used came from the Dayton recommended motor size to drive 
the ducted fan under load (see data for 60" fan 3C200 in the above link).

>for you: are you also impressed by this demonstration? What do you think of
>the idea of borrowing Jean-Louis' Newman machine and checking it out?

I'd rather get Newman himself to supply the motor and come here and operate 
it  himself so there'd be no wiggle room left.  I think we'll be making 
this offer to him soon...again.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:02:07 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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At 8:19 AM 10/13/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic
>>primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do
>>they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current.
>
>***{No surprise there. The initial surge of current in the primary, when
>the switch is closed, will produce a brief and oppositely directed surge in
>the secondary, but as soon as the current in the primary settles into a
>steady state, the current in the secondary will cease. The reason: the flux
>lines in the magnetic field produced by the primary are no longer in
>motion, and, thus, cease to influence the motion of the electrons in the
>secondary. (If a steady magnetic field could induce a current in a wire
>that was not moving, we could use a permanent magnet to produce perpetual
>motion.) --MJ}***


My impression was that Anderson was saying that 50 Hz AC applied to an
electrolytic primary will produce no output current or potential on a
secondary.  I did not get the impression he was attempting to put DC
through a transformer.


>
>His data
>>looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that
>>were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of
>>electrolytes.
>
>***{Exactly. This was the weird part of his result. If classical electromag
>is correct, a 50 Hz current in the primary should produce a current in the
>secondary, regardless of whether it is a flow of positive ions in an
>electrolyte, or a flow of negative electrons in copper wire. If it doesn't,
>something odd is going on. --MJ}***


I think Anderson said or implied at one point that electrolytic secondaries
generated normal expected output.  It was only when used as a primary that
he got the unexpected result from the electrolytic coil.  Is suspect he did
not compensate for or even measure the resistance of his electrolytic
primary.  If he is listening maybe he can interject.


At 8:11 PM 9/23/0, xplorer wrote:
>I tried to get water-filled tubing
>(pure as well as saline)
> to act as electromagnets and transformers.
>I even tried using a water pump to circulate
> charged water, but nothing happened.
>I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current
> to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way)
>It simply would not work -
> no detectable em field whatsoever.
>I had hoped it would, as I have applications...
>
>I think they failed due to the
> large diameter tubing (5mm)
> but perhaps not...
>
>The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to
> like magnetic fields.
>


At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer wrote:

>I only tried 50 Hz ac, it may be there are fields at higher frequencies,
> but I don't have the equipment for that at this time.
>Perhaps a deceptive assumption, but I am guessing that without the ability
> to get even a DC current to generate a magnetic field, the chances of
> seeing em activity at higher freqs is rather remote.
>If I get my signal generator built, I would like to try this again
> at freqs up to 50 MHz.


At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer wrote:

>
>The primary was low impedance -
> ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing'
> around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water.
>The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl),
> testing it at various levels of salinity through
> to saturation.
>
>The secondary was a standard solenoid coil
> 330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core.
>I was inside the water tubing primary.
>
>I could not get any magnetic effects either,
> using a Nd magnet suspended, btw.
>
>I may have something wrong with the setup -
> I would certainly like to hear someone else
> replicate this.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:02:20 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 7:51 PM 10/13/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:34:32 -0800:
>[snip]
>>gravitational field.  The larger gravitational force on the closer portions
>>of the solid test body is transmitted, via the electrostatic force of
>>various atomic bonds inside the test body volume, to the furthest mass of
>>the test body, which resists, via inirtia, the larger force applied to the
>>closer portions of the test body, thus stretching the body.
>[snip]
>Ok, but why does it result in an elliptical shape rather than an egg shape?

Now you have taken a simple answer and made it necessarily more complex!  8^)

If a body is sucked into a black hole it can stretch to the point it
encircles it several times before disappearing.  I think this is called the
"spaghetti effect."  The spaghetti shape is neither an ellipse nor egg
shaped, but perhaps it can be called closer related to an egg than to an
ellipse?    The actual shape in extreme cases is subject to extreme
relativistic orbital mechanics of the test body, and the angular momentum
of the principle body (i.e. to Kerr orbitals, frame dragging, etc.) than in
the case of the earth.

With the above qualifications, perhaps a good answer to your question is
that in  the earth-moon system, the ratio r/R is small, about 6/240, with r
the radius of the earth, R the earth-moon distance, thus the shape of the
bulge closely approximates that of an ellipse.  The force exerted across a
body (earth in this case) by the electrostatic force of the bonds between
atoms is of course an equal but opposite force that depends on the amount
of stretching, and the force differential due to gravity approximates a
linear differential, i.e. a uniform field, when r/R is small.  On the
surface of the earth, for example, due to our comparatively small height,
we experience a comparatively uniform gravitational field from the earth.
So it is with the earth in relation to the moon, and therefore the bulge
shape is almost elliptical due to the nearly uniform gravitational field
from the moon upon the earth.

The electrostatic and gravitational forces are still opposed, even though
the gravitational field is locally nearly uniform, thus there is still
stretching.   Still, the electrostatic force is maintained by the
difference in orbital speeds of particles at the differing radii, and thus
is still dependent on the 1/R^2 nature of the gravitational force.  The
further away particles tend to orbit (the moon) slowly, the closer in
particles tend to orbit (the moon) faster. The inirtia of the farther away
particles prevents them from being instantaneously being accelerated up to
the speed of the close in (closer to the moon) particles, thus the
electrostatic force, or tension, develops within the earth.  The orbital
speed difference between particles at R and r+R radii is approximately
uniform with repect to r, due to the small r/R ratio, thus the stretching
is approximately uniform.  However, it should be noted that the stretching
or elongation would also occur if the earth-moon system were not in mutual
orbit, but merely free-falling toward each other.  The answer that the back
bulge is due to the centrifugal force, i.e. inirtia, of the further away
mass is still the correct answer to Jack Smith's question I think.

Note that the centrifugal force in discussion is due to the rotation of the
earth-moon system, not the rotation of the earth.  The rotation of the
earth has only to do with the apparent rotation of the bulges.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:13:58 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:11:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
Resent-Message-ID: <"t11NL.0.qJ5.mPovv" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> >So, according to Jones there is "more energy" in a vehicle - vehicle crash,
>> >than a crash of a single vehicle into a wall
>>
>>***{While that was not the main point, it happens to be *obviously* true.
>>Remember: KE = (1/2)mV^2. If m1 and V1 are the mass and velocity of your
>>vehicle, and m2 and V2 are the mass and velocity of the concrete wall,
>>respectively, then since V2 = 0, all of the kinetic energy of the collison
>>comes from your vehicle. If you crash head-on into another car at the same
>>speed, however, then m2 and V2 represent additional kinetic energy, because
>>V2 is *not* equal to zero. --MJ}***
>
>I think these equations only apply an ideal situation with bodies on a
>frictionless surface, in a totally inelastic collision, where all the
>energy is absorbed by the two colliding bodies. In the real world, the
>concrete wall is part of the earth, like the wall of a cliff. Its mass is
>effectively infinite; it does not bounce away measurably. When you run into
>a stationary SUV at 60 mph, it will absorb part of the energy as it bounces
>away. When you sit still with the brakes off and let the SUV plow into you
>at 60 mph, that works the same way as when you plow into it. Jones' notion
>that the kinetic energy "comes from you" when you are moving makes no sense
>to me. Suppose the bodies were in outer space. There would be no way of
>telling which was moving and which was stationary, and in fact the whole
>question is meaningless. The kinetic energy comes from the relative motion
>between the two bodies and the combined mass of both; neither of them
>"carries it." When they collide, they absorb equal amounts of energy. The
>lighter body ricochets off a greater distance.
>
>It takes more energy to accelerate the SUV than my smaller car, but I do
>not see how this affects the outcome of an elastic collision from my point
>of view. (A real auto collision is, of course, partly inelastic.) If I am
>standing on a dock in New York and the QE2 ocean liner whacks into me at 3
>mph just before it stops, that does not feel any different than if I
>accidentally walk into the QE2. I do not fall back any farther, or sustain
>any worse injury. A little energy is expended, and both the QE2 and I
>bounce back, and the event is over. Naturally, if the ship keeps moving and
>grinds me into a wall, or it keeps going until the friction from my
>dragging heels stop it, expending ALL of its momentum on me, that's a
>different story. I suppose an auto collision is partly inelastic, and most
>of the energy from both bodies is used up, so the additional energy
>required to accelerate the SUV would mean there is more damage.
>
>To take another example, when a fly whacks into me at 20 mph, it will
>usually survive, because very little energy is expended in the collision.
>When I am riding on a bicycle at 20 mph, and I hit the fly, I do not
>pulverize it just because I am the one who was accelerated relative to
>earth, and it took a lot more energy to get me moving than it would take
>the fly to crank up to 20 mph.
>
>In any case, the mass of a concrete wall is effectively infinite, so it
>seems to me this makes collision with it at any given speed the worst
>collision you can arrange. Whether my car is going 60 mph, or the wall and
>the entire planet earth attached to it is moving toward me in a stationary
>car at 60 mph, the results will be exactly the same, and they will be worse
>than any collision with another car.
>
>- Jed

***{The more you talk, the further you get away from the issue between
us--which is: you cited data collected by crash testing vehicles against
concrete barriers as evidence that SUV's and full-sized pickups are not
safer than the typical cars that people drive today. I then responded by
pointing out the following *unarguable facts*: (a) that such tests are
structured to yield precisely the result that you cited, (b) that such
tests are *not* representative of the vehicle-to-vehicle crashes that are
the norm on our highways, (c) that if vehicle-to-vehicle crash tests were
done, they would show SUV's and full-sized pickups to be *vastly* safer
than ordinary cars, in the types of collisions that typically occur.

When the actual context of our disagreement is restored, your comments,
above, stand revealed as *irrelevant*. The reason: we are comparing two
concepts of crash testing, with the intent to compare the safety of SUV's
and full-sized pickups to the safety of ordinary cars. If, for example, we
want to evaluate crash safety at 60 mph, one way would be to crash-test
these various types of vehicles one at a time, at 60 mph, against a
concrete barrier, and the other way would be to crash them two at a time,
with cars hitting pickups, or cars hitting SUV's, each going 60 mph.

In crashes of the latter type, the total amount of kinetic energy that must
be dissipated in the collision is much greater, and, more importantly, the
larger, less flexible vehicles are *unarguably* much safer. This is an
outcome of elementary physics, and is sufficiently obvious in an educated
group such as this one, that your continuing efforts to deny it are utterly
hopeless.

Give it up.

--Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:43:21 2000
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John Winterflood wrote:

As I recall his "air dynamometer" is a large exhaust fan (meant
>for exhausting bad air from an area inside a building through
>a possibly long duct and against a reasonable head of pressure
>due to the difficulty of the air circulating back from outside
>to inside the building).
>
>His "calibration" (1,119 W) is the figure in the manufacturers
>specs given as a recommended motor size to use in combination
>with the fan (ie one that will do the job with a reasonable
>safety margin for most ducting situations).

That's about the worst test I've ever heard of. If those details are 
correct, and that is Newman is doing, he has gone off his rocker.

It is ironic that you can do a fairly accurate test with a fan in the 
tunnel, by measuring the tunnel cross-section and the airspeed with a 
hand-held anemometer. Newman could derive a real answer in a few hours.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:43:52 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{The more you talk, the further you get away from the issue between
>us--which is: you cited data collected by crash testing vehicles against
>concrete barriers as evidence that SUV's and full-sized pickups are not
>safer than the typical cars that people drive today.

That's wrong. The statements about SUVs are not based on crash tests, they 
are based on accident statistics.


>the norm on our highways, (c) that if vehicle-to-vehicle crash tests were
>done, they would show SUV's and full-sized pickups to be *vastly* safer
>than ordinary cars, in the types of collisions that typically occur.

No, they would not show that. The crash test results are similar to the 
actual accident data.



>When the actual context of our disagreement is restored, your comments,
>above, stand revealed as *irrelevant*. The reason: we are comparing two
>concepts of crash testing, with the intent to compare the safety of SUV's
>and full-sized pickups to the safety of ordinary cars. If, for example, we
>want to evaluate crash safety at 60 mph, one way would be to crash-test
>these various types of vehicles one at a time, at 60 mph, against a
>concrete barrier, and the other way would be to crash them two at a time,
>with cars hitting pickups, or cars hitting SUV's, each going 60 mph.

Well, obviously if the combined speed is 120 mph, the accident would be 
more severe than a 60 mph test! That is not the issue. In my example I 
compare tests in which the combined speed (or the relative speed of the two 
bodies) is the same in all cases.

In actual highway and street accidents, the combined speed at the moment of 
the collision is rarely as high as 60 mph. People put on the brakes when 
they see they are heading for a collision. A 60 mph crash would be fatal in 
almost every case, with any automobile, I think. Except specially equipped 
racing cars, as I noted before.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:52:32 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:24:16 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic
> primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do
> they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current.  His data
> looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that
> were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of
> electrolytes.  However, I managed to produce a brief test of his
> hypothesis, even with the very low primary current that results from using
> low conductivity electrolyte conductors, by bumping up the frequency to
> about 1 MHz and using a ferrite flyback transformer core to couple the
> primary and secondary coils,  both of which had a low turn count.

Hi Horace,

Can you try lower frequencies, especially around 20k, which is likely the
resonance point of the ferrite (if it came from a flyback) - and also can you
measure any significant current? In other words, although you mentioned
capacitance coupling, have you really eliminated the possibility that you have
anything more than a transmitter (the lead to the electrolyte) and an antenna?

I say this because the voltage output of the secondary is about what you would
expect from a closely placed antenna, and the ferrite probably doesn't couple
well above 40k hz anyway. Using a coax for the lead could eliminate this
possibility, or if you find a significant current transfer that would be
definitive.

Did you try using DC and a small compass to see if you get any magnetic field
at all?

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 08:52:34 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:51:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
Resent-Message-ID: <"rE813.0.1z1.G-ovv" mx1>
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>At 09:20 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> >http://www.josephnewman.com/test_results.html
>>
>>***{Hi Scott. Thanks for the link. I read that material, and found it to be
>>very impressive. I would say that John Winterflood is grasping at straws
>>when he claims that the data from Dayton were collected inside a ducting
>>system of unknown dimensions rather than in open air. (Why would they do
>>that? Why supply data to customers that will force them to needlessly
>>complicate their testing setup?
>
>The fan is not sold by Grainger's as a dynamometer.

***{I didn't think it was. My assumption, however, was that the test data
given were for a fan freewheeling in open air. My reason for that
assumption was simply that otherwise the load on the fan would depend on
the specific geometry of the ducting system used when the data were
collected, and, thus, such data would be virtually useless to any specific
customer, whose situation would probably be different. --MJ}***

It's simply a
>replacement blade for their large industrial exhaust fans which are ducted

***{I beg to differ: the typical use for the type of fan that I see in the
photo is *not* ducted. A typical application would be to cut a circular
hole in the vertical wall of a warehouse, just below the roof peak, and
install the fan in that hole. There is no duct in such a setup. The fan is
essentially freewheeling in open air, because warehouses typically operate
with very large, garage style, open doors, and the air is free to
circulate. Thus I expected the data to be collected under those
circumstances, and would be very surprised if it was not. --MJ}***

>and, in fact, are usually working against a measurable pressure head.  The
>fan is described here:
>
>http://www.grainger.com/cgi-bin/ngs?534284YXkk3623kk3C200
>
>John is correct that the blade spinning freely out in the open will require
>significantly less power to drive.

***{Yes. No argument there. --MJ}***

He is also correct in that the hp-rpm
>data that Newman used came from the Dayton recommended motor size to drive
>the ducted fan under load (see data for 60" fan 3C200 in the above link).

***{I read it, and I think you are wrong. It nowhere says that the fan is
to be ducted, and, in fact, states explicitly: "For use as factory
replacement blades in Dayton industrial/commercial exhaust fans." Scott, an
"exhaust fan" is *not* ducted. It is installed in the wall of a warehouse,
or inside a safety cage sitting on the floor, and in normal operation it
freewheels in open air. --MJ}***

>
>>for you: are you also impressed by this demonstration? What do you think of
>>the idea of borrowing Jean-Louis' Newman machine and checking it out?
>
>I'd rather get Newman himself to supply the motor and come here and operate
>it  himself so there'd be no wiggle room left.  I think we'll be making
>this offer to him soon...again.

***{Why do you continue to waste your time with an approach that you know
will not work? Pardon me for being blunt, but are you interested in
determining whether the damn motor is over unity, or are you interested in
imposing your will on Newman? The answer, it seems to me, is the latter.
(Otherwise, you wouldn't be concerned with whether he has "wiggle room.") I
suggest that your focus should be on obtaining, and testing, a Newman
motor. If you do that, and it fails the test, then I think most of us here,
myself included, will be inclined to turn our attention elsewhere,
regardless of whether Newman agrees with your results or not. --MJ}***

>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:24:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{The more you talk, the further you get away from the issue between
>>us--which is: you cited data collected by crash testing vehicles against
>>concrete barriers as evidence that SUV's and full-sized pickups are not
>>safer than the typical cars that people drive today.
>
>That's wrong. The statements about SUVs are not based on crash tests, they
>are based on accident statistics.

***{The statement, in your original post, was as follows:

"Federal research has shown S.U.V.'s to be no safer for their drivers than
cars, but some consumers continue to name safety as a reason for their
appeal."

The only "Federal research" into this topic that I have seen involved
crashing vehicles into concrete barriers. (I have actually watched film of
such tests.) If you know of some other type of research, based on auto
accident statistics, that reaches the opposite conclusion, please cite a
reference, so I can proceed to chop said studies to pieces. How do I know I
can do that? Simple: the laws of physics, as I have pointed out repeatedly
in this discussion, indicate *with utter lack of ambiguity* that in crashes
between small, flexible vehicles and large inflexible vehicles, the latter
are the safer. Thus any government "study" which denies that, whether based
on statistics or any other rationale, is guaranteed to be fully as
contrived and bogus as is their crash testing.

They want to force us all into transportation which they control, so they
can rule us more effectively. It is as simple as that.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>>the norm on our highways, (c) that if vehicle-to-vehicle crash tests were
>>done, they would show SUV's and full-sized pickups to be *vastly* safer
>>than ordinary cars, in the types of collisions that typically occur.
>
>No, they would not show that. The crash test results are similar to the
>actual accident data.

***{As noted above, any such interpretation of accident data is guaranteed
to be bogus, because such claims deny the laws of physics. --MJ}***

>
>>When the actual context of our disagreement is restored, your comments,
>>above, stand revealed as *irrelevant*. The reason: we are comparing two
>>concepts of crash testing, with the intent to compare the safety of SUV's
>>and full-sized pickups to the safety of ordinary cars. If, for example, we
>>want to evaluate crash safety at 60 mph, one way would be to crash-test
>>these various types of vehicles one at a time, at 60 mph, against a
>>concrete barrier, and the other way would be to crash them two at a time,
>>with cars hitting pickups, or cars hitting SUV's, each going 60 mph.
>
>Well, obviously if the combined speed is 120 mph, the accident would be
>more severe than a 60 mph test! That is not the issue. In my example I
>compare tests in which the combined speed (or the relative speed of the two
>bodies) is the same in all cases.

***{That is absurd. You do not determine whether SUV's are safer than cars
by comparing crashes of SUV's into concrete at 60 mph with crashes of cars
into cars at 30 mph. Instead, *obviously*, you pick a speed of interest and
crash cars into SUV's with both vehicles going at that speed. --MJ}***

>In actual highway and street accidents, the combined speed at the moment of
>the collision is rarely as high as 60 mph. People put on the brakes when
>they see they are heading for a collision. A 60 mph crash would be fatal in
>almost every case, with any automobile, I think. Except specially equipped
>racing cars, as I noted before.

***{So what? Why do you keep nattering on about irrelevancies? I repeat: if
you want use crash tests to determine whether SUV's are safer than cars,
you *obviously* crash cars into SUV's at the speed you are interested in.
If that is not 60 mph, fine. Pick a different number. If 30 mph turns you
on, go for it! The point, at any speed, remains the same: (a) the only sane
way to answer the question of whether SUV's are safer than cars in crashes
is to crash cars into SUV's; and (b) elementary physics tells us the answer
we will get when we do such tests: SUV's are safer--a *lot* safer--than
cars. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:37:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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I wrote:

>It is ironic that you can do a fairly accurate test with a fan in the 
>tunnel, by measuring the tunnel cross-section and the airspeed with a 
>hand-held anemometer. Newman could derive a real answer in a few hours.

He would not even have to buy an anemometer. He can call in an HVAC 
consulting engineer and have the test done any time.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 11:20:23 2000
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Message-ID: <39E75399.65FF7CCF bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:25:29 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

<snip>

> Those numbers show
> that SUVs are somewhat less safe than conventionally shaped midsize and
> large automobiles, mainly because they roll over, according to Terry.

Here is the reference:

http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/story/0,1597,199509-412,00.shtml

Terry

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Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
> ***{The more you talk, the further you get away from the issue between
> us--which is: you cited data collected by crash testing vehicles against
> concrete barriers as evidence that SUV's and full-sized pickups are not
> safer than the typical cars that people drive today. I then responded by
> pointing out the following *unarguable facts*: (a) that such tests are
> structured to yield precisely the result that you cited, (b) that such
> tests are *not* representative of the vehicle-to-vehicle crashes that are
> the norm on our highways, (c) that if vehicle-to-vehicle crash tests were
> done, they would show SUV's and full-sized pickups to be *vastly* safer
> than ordinary cars, in the types of collisions that typically occur.

<snip>

And here's a reference for Jones:

                            The National Highway Traffic
                            Safety Administration said the
                            summit in Detroit would address
                            mounting concerns over the higher
                            rates of fatalities among passengers
                            in automobiles when they are
                            involved in collisions with SUVs and
                            pickup trucks. 

Entire article at:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/suvsummit0218.html

Terry

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:28:26 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Nature of the Rayleigh Wave
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Frank Znidarsic wrote
>
>I doing the same.  Podklenov's discovery if correctly interpreted exactly
>tells us how to couple strongly with gravity.  I have a good idea of how to
>build a transmitting and receiving antennas that couple strongly with
>gravity.  Such a device could communicate gravitationally with submarines
>under the ocean and through the earth to miners.  I will not reveal my design.

Thank you for responding to my post Frank, I appreciate your 
reluctance to disclose any unpatented technology. I assume that the 
waves you plan to generate would not interact with Hertzian waves. If 
this were the case you could double the amount of information that 
you could send through a cable or fiber. This would be of great 
economic significance.

My original question had to do with the GIF that Dale Pond posted 
which he says describes the Rayleigh Wave. Is his description correct?

I noticed in your subsequent posts that you think that you are going 
to solve the energy crisis too, and I want to offer you my best 
wishes in this effort.

I also noticed that you think that you are going to develop a drive 
based on gravity. This brings to mind to another thread that I've 
been attempting to get a discussion going on. Robert Cook has 
developed a reactionless drive. Since the operation of this machine 
contradicts Newton's Third Law, we should be discussing it.

>
>Hal Fox is the process of publishing my "Constants of the Motion Paper."

Will your paper be available in another form, like posted on your 
website or in PDF form?

I just reread Dale Pond's discussion on Strings. He says that the 
Rayleigh wave is a vortex. I've always speculated that inducing a 
vortex was the answer to cohering the energy of the vacuum. I wonder 
is David Dennard is still reading our posts? I don't care what he 
says about a whirlpool differing from a vortex if it whirls and has a 
conical form it is a vortex. Now if I can just figure out what frame 
dragging is and why it causes the whirling thingy to wobble I be a 
happy man.

Thomas Malloy

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 11:53:29 2000
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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At 10:51 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{I beg to differ: the typical use for the type of fan that I see in the
>photo is *not* ducted. A typical application would be to cut a circular
>hole in the vertical wall of a warehouse, just below the roof peak, and
>install the fan in that hole.

That's what John and I meant by a duct....it forces the fan to move air 
from one place to another rather then just to stir the air locally.

***{Why do you continue to waste your time with an approach that you know
>will not work? Pardon me for being blunt, but are you interested in
>determining whether the damn motor is over unity, or are you interested in
>imposing your will on Newman?

I want to see if the motor is over-unity...and, if my tests show that it is 
not o-u, I do not want Newman to be able to claim that I operated his motor 
incorrectly.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 12:16:01 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:14:24 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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>
>
>>for you: are you also impressed by this demonstration? What do you think of
>>the idea of borrowing Jean-Louis' Newman machine and checking it out?
>
>I'd rather get Newman himself to supply the motor and come here and 
>operate it  himself so there'd be no wiggle room left.  I think 
>we'll be making this offer to him soon...again.

It looks to me like Joesph took the full load amperage specifications 
for that fan, when operating in a duct and then applied them to the 
fan powered  by his energy machine running in open air. If this is 
the case, nice try Joe.

This discussion just demonstrates what Otto Schmitt always said, "the 
only definitive test for energy production is to heat water."

Thomas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 12:49:17 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:47:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Those numbers show
>> that SUVs are somewhat less safe than conventionally shaped midsize and
>> large automobiles, mainly because they roll over, according to Terry.
>
>Here is the reference:
>
>http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/story/0,1597,199509-412,00.shtml
>
>Terry

***{I asked you for a reference to a study. The above link does not lead to
a study. It leads to a CBS news article by some hack reporter, long on
statist rhetoric, and short on details. About the only content is the usual
silliness about rollover accidents. Well, SUV stands for "sports utility
vehicle." They are mostly owned by males, and are driven off-road *a lot*.
Result: lots of rollover accidents. However, those accidents, and the
fatalaties that result from them, are irrelevant to our discussion. We are
comparing the *crash safety* of cars to that of SUV's and pickups, and,
like it or not, the vast majority of *on-road* accidents involve two
vehicles colliding. In those collisions, rollovers are rare, mainly because
such accidents take place on paved surfaces that are not inclined to flip a
vehicle, but also because an SUV or pickup with a proper bumper--i.e., a
protruding bumper of the sort that the government wants to ban--will lock
into the metal of the vehicle that it hits, thereby preventing the vehicle
with more road clearance from being catapulted up over the top of the
vehicle with less clearance.   In my view, the bumper of an SUV or
full-sized pickup should be made of heavy steel, and should protrude at
least 6 inches, and preferrably a foot, to guard against the possibility of
a catapult effect in a collision with a low-slung vehicle. Unlike you,
however, I do not believe that the government ought to be in the business
of telling manufacturers what kind of vehicles to build, or of telling
consumers what kind of vehicles to buy. Thus manufacturers should be free
to churn out SUV's and pickups with flat front ends if they wish , and
consumers should be free to buy them. For myself, however, I like the heavy
steel "mauler" type bumpers, and as long as I can get them, they are the
only thing I will use. (By the way: full-sized pickups have lower
centers-of-gravity than full sized SUV's--which is another reason for
preferring pickups.) --MJ}***

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:52:22 -0400
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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Scott Little wrote:


>I want to see if the motor is over-unity...and, if my tests show that it 
>is not o-u, I do not want Newman to be able to claim that I operated his 
>motor incorrectly.

A forlorn hope. He will say that no matter what, even if he himself is 
standing there operating the machine during the tests. Or he will say your 
method of testing it is wrong. Or he grab the equipment and run away in the 
middle of the night when he realizes you know what you are doing.

I would not worry about he says. The only reason to have him operate the 
thing is that there is a slight chance he knows some trick or he has some 
special skill that makes it produce energy.

- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
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Mitchell Jones wrote:


>The only "Federal research" into this topic that I have seen involved
>crashing vehicles into concrete barriers. (I have actually watched film of
>such tests.) If you know of some other type of research, based on auto
>accident statistics, that reaches the opposite conclusion, please cite a
>reference, so I can proceed to chop said studies to pieces.

They count dead people and multiply by the miles on the odometers. How can 
you tear that apart? The facts are available at lots of sites, both pubic 
and private. Check out the NTSB, NHTSA  (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/) or 
Consumer Reports. It is common knowledge that SUVs are not quite as safe as 
regular cars. Deny it all you want, facts are facts.

I am pleased to see the NHTSA is working on human factors and automated 
"intelligent transportation systems" (crash avoidance systems). That is 
where the ultimate answer lies, decades from now. Let machines do the work! 
Their response time and coordination is better than ours.

- Jed

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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: space water
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Robin
	A lot of them escape too, since they are so light, and can acheive
escape velocity easily. Those with outward radial velocity. See the
article by Steinmetz in a recent Infinite Energy.
Hank

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Most of the solar wind protons that hit the atmosphere must eventually
> combine with oxygen to form water. I wonder how much it would add up to over
> the eons?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
> 
> 

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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At 8:24 AM 10/13/0, Jones Beene wrote:

>Can you try lower frequencies, especially around 20k, which is likely the
>resonance point of the ferrite (if it came from a flyback)


The output voltage attenuates as frequency drops, and there is nothing much
out below around 50 kHz.  I am only imputting about a volt rms, so with
about 10 k resistance the input current is limited to only about 100
microamps, and that ignoring the inductance.  My DMM is not accurate in
that range.  Also, I think the current through the electrolyte at that
voltage is limited to that which gets through the capacitive interface
between the copper and the electrolyte.  Down at that low current you have
to obtain a high dI/dt to get a measurable voltage, thus a large frequency
is required.  The magnetic coupling is not so good due to the small number
of turns and the relatively long distance between primaries and
secondaries.  I could go the trouble to build a HF HV supply, and insulate
the coils for HV, but I don't see any evidence to justify it, and I have a
lot else to do of higher priority.  I am now merely reporting what I did in
order to save others the trouble.


>- and also can you
>measure any significant current? In other words, although you mentioned
>capacitance coupling, have you really eliminated the possibility that you have
>anything more than a transmitter (the lead to the electrolyte) and an antenna?


Yes, I have fiddled around further to be sure that capacitive coupling is
not a large part of the coupling beteen the primaries and the secondary.  I
rebuit my transformer in order to make sure.  I made a new longer 16 turn
liquid primary from thinner more flexible Tygon tubing.  I wrapped it with
a 16 turn copper primary.  I used lye instead of salt water and achieved a
10 K ohm resistance for the new longer liquid secondary.  I made an all new
secondary by wrapping the second "C" core with two layers of rough twine to
achieve a layer with a low dielectric constant, and then wrapped that with
16 turns of insulated copper.   The purpose of the new secondary "C" was to
break the strong capacitive coupling between the primaries and the
secondary.  There is still some, but it is reduced.  I discovered that at
the 0.5 to 1 MHz range used the ferrite core is essentially a conductor -
by accidentally touching the power lead to the primary core.   The results
were better with the new set-up, but still unclear when tests were
attempted with the two primaries placed in series - due to the strong
capacitive coupling between the two primary coils, which are wrapped one on
top of the other.   Energizing each of the two primary coils at separate
times, with the copper coil in series with a 10 k resistor, still clearly
produced similar output.  There is no sign of anomalous behaviour.

Keep in mind that the primary and secondary coils axes are parallel, and
located on opposite "C's" of the core.  The two C's are pushed togeher to
make a complete "O" core.  When I break apart the two ferrite C's the
signal drops fast.  Most important, is that when I disconnect the GROUND to
the primary coil, be it the electrolytic or the copper primary, the signal
then drops to nearly nothing.  If the primary were acting as an antenna,
then the primary ground would be not needed to propigate the signal.  A
current has to go through the entire primary in order to get a significant
output voltage, so that pretty much guarantees that magnetic coupling is
the source of the secondary voltage.

Here are some quantatative results:

    1050 kHz                    525 kHz

 V_in      V_out             V_in      V_out

  1.30     1.02              1.26      0.360
  1.29     0.920             1.26      0.380


To further nail down the equivalence of the effect, and to eliminate doubt
as to the current through each of the primaries, a 3rd C core was prepareed
with 15 turns of copper.  This third C core was placed in series with the
electrolytic coil an the second C core.  These were individually and
manually mated to the first C core, whcih contained the isolated secondary.
The was some minor variation in the output numbers depending on how hard
the cores were pressed, how well they aligned etc. but not more than about
5 percent fluctuation fromthe above figures.

So, to a moderately high degree of accuracy, about 5 percent, it appears
the magnetic fields produced are the same.


>
>I say this because the voltage output of the secondary is about what you would
>expect from a closely placed antenna, and the ferrite probably doesn't couple
>well above 40k hz anyway. Using a coax for the lead could eliminate this
>possibility, or if you find a significant current transfer that would be
>definitive.

Actually, coax coils don't provide full or even adequate shielding in that
if they are open ended on one end they act as antennas themselves and
actually produce current, and if shorted, they kill the output potential.


>
>Did you try using DC and a small compass to see if you get any magnetic field
>at all?


Yes.  Here I used the original electrolytic primary to wrap 5 turns on a
cardboard tube.  The inner diameter was 4.2 cm, and the coil length was 5.5
cm. A control coil of the same dimensions was wound with 5 turns of copper
wire.  These coils were placed to either side of a compas made from two
magnets self-clamping themselves to a 32 cm length of fine cotton thread
which was supended so as to position the magnets between the mouths of the
two axially aligned coils.  The coils were positioned so as to be at right
angles to the ambient field (which I suspect is higher than the earth's due
to some powerful magnets I have in the vicinity.)  The magnets quickly
pointed approximately toward magnetic north, which here is to the
northeast, so I suspect the local field is not extremely strong compared
tot he earth's.  The magnets used were circular prisms, 12 mm diameter and
6 mm thick.  They are about 35 Mgo I think, and are from Arbor Scientific.

A regulated DC power supply was used, and the voltage applied was 22.61
volts, the current 3.12 mA, showing a total effective resistance of 7.2 k
ohms.  The coils are maintained in series throughout all the data gathering
so as to maintain a constant current through both.

A very small deflection was observed when the two coils were orineted so as
to have their magnetic fields reinforce, forming a kind of Helmholz coil or
long continuous solenoid around the magnets.

Now for the unfortunately not very quantitative part.  The magnets
exhibited a typical torsion pendulum frequency of about 1 second, and were
nearly impossible to totally stop oscillating or swinging, but the natural
normal oscillations were small.   With the current in the two coils
reinforcing, and applied (manually) only during a reinforcing phase of the
torsion swing, the magnets were made to oscillate to a full 90 deg.
position in (about) 17 oscillations.  With the aligned so as to oppose, a
small amount of somewhat random looking gyration could be achived, but this
appeared to be do more to the 2D pendulum motion of the magnets and varying
proximity to the two coils.  Within the accuracy of the experiment, it
appeared the two fields cancelled.  The electrolytic coil was placed aside,
using only the copper coil, and it took 45 to 50 oscillations to achieve a
90 deg. oscillation.  (This is a very subjective test.)  Then, the copper
coil replaced the electrolytic coil and it took from 42 to 48 times to
achieve a 90 deg. oscillation.

Again, this is a null result.  The hypothesis that the electrolyte coils
produce no magnetic field is further positively denied.

I don't have any more time or space for this work, so am concluding my efforts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 15:48:24 2000
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See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,39413,00.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 15:56:49 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 13, 2000
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:39:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 13 Oct 00   Washington, DC

UPDATE ON ROBERT PARK'S CONDITION.  Watch for that acerbic wit to
return to WN next week.  The countdown has begun.

1. NEWT WEIGHS IN ON DOUBLING BILL. Last week former House
Speaker Newt Gingrich wrote to House Science Committee Chairman
James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), asking him to rethink his opposition
to the Frist-Rockefeller Federal Research Investment Act that has
passed the Senate unanimously three times (WN Sep 29 00).  "I
urge you not to let the specifics of the bill cloud the
importance of sending a clear message that a general overall
doubling of R&D is one of the highest priorities of the
Republican Congress," Gingrich wrote.  "The consequences of not
passing the bill at this point will send a confused message and
could be detrimental in rallying support for R&D funding."

2. CONGRESSIONAL CRUTCH. Ever wonder why Congress gives the
National Institutes of Health such great bipartisan support? 
Consider the wounded state of the Senate: AKAKA (D-HI) hip
replaced in August, FEINSTEIN (D-CA) injured leg surgically
repaired last week, HELMS (R-NC) knee replaced and still using a
walker, LAUTENBERG (D-NJ) sporting a cast on a fractured wrist,
McCAIN (R-AZ) melanoma removed from face in August, SCHUMER (D-
NY) still suffering from August foot injury, STEVENS (R-AK)
hobbled by toe surgery, THURMOND (R-SC) hospitalized two weekends
ago for dehydration and fainting, WELLSTONE (D-WI) suffering from
chronic back problems.  WN can think of a few more who need help. 

3. CORRIGENDUM. Some readers took WN (Sep 15 00) to task for
claiming that Bob Park's tree accident was "the world's most
unlikely."  They were right.  Celia, the bucardo, wins, hands
down.  The species became extinct when a tree fell on the last
living member.  Now that's a true rarity.  But science may
triumph, after all.  Celia's tissue has been frozen, and plans
are being made to clone the bucardo in the egg of the common
ibex.  No comment, yet, from right-to-life advocates.

4. SWEDISH ACADEMY RECOGNIZES IT. Not as sexy as Clara Bow or
Betty Grable, the "It Girls" from the silver screen past, but in
the money nonetheless, Zhores Alferov of Russia and Herbert
Kroemer and Jack Kilby of the United States share this year's
Nobel Prize in Physics for developing layered semiconductor
structures (heterostructures) and integrated circuits.  Their
work led to the development of microelectronics and light-
emitting diodes, key to the information technology revolution.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)
This week's WN was written by Michael Lubell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 15:58:39 2000
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:59:13 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment report - Electrolytic primary
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The quantatative results table need further annotation:

    1050 kHz                    525 kHz

 V_in      V_out             V_in      V_out

  1.30     1.02              1.26      0.360      Electrolyte
  1.29     0.920             1.26      0.380      Copper


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 16:04:43 2000
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Mitchell,
Once again we are coming from much different aspects of reality.  In my case, I
have read a well researched study of the potential pole shifts and, not knowing
what to believe, asked for comments about this subject.  In response, we all
obtained some new facts as well as some very interesting insights into the
phenomenon.   Naturally, I would not expect anyone to give proof that the
phenomenon would actually occur, only a plausible explanation.

Your response, if I interpret it correctly, is that the proposed pole shift is
nonsense because no mechanism exists which can move the crust in the proposed way
and no mechanism exists which can store energy in the earth to be released by a
gentle nudge.  Both the gravity interaction with the Sun-Moon system and the solar
wind are too small and have the wrong vector to do the job.

If this is your viewpoint, the response appears to me to show an approach that is
very typical of conventional science these days, i.e. a rejection is automatically
proposed if an explanation or theory can not be imagined.  Having experienced this
style of rejection in the cold fusion field, I'm perhaps more sensitive to the
approach than most people.

Another approach is to assume that we do not know everything about nature and that
a phenomenon can exist that has no explanation at the present time.  In this case,
all aspects of the phenomenon are examined as if it were real and a judgment is
made only after considerable study.  This approach frequently reveals patterns of
behavior and related facts that support the mysterious phenomenon, facts that are
ignored if the phenomenon is initially rejected.  If the phenomenon is actually
real, these patterns gradually reveal the required explanation.  I welcome this
approach. Do you?

Regards,
Ed



Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >> >>
> >> >>As always, you make assumptions, Mitchell, from which you reach logical
> >> >>conclusions.  The logic is flawless, but the initial assumption is
> >>not.  In
> >> >>this case, you assume there is no mechanism. If a mechanism is
> >>suggested, you
> >> >>reject it as not having the necessary characteristics.  As a result, your
> >> >>original assumption stands and we make no progress.
> >> >
> >> >***{As long as my original assumption stands, that's progress, right? :-)
> >> >--MJ}***
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>In this case, I point out that the gravity of the sun and moon are
> >>known to
> >> >>interact with the crust.  You agree, but say that the interaction is too
> >> >>small to move the crust more than a few cm/year.
> >> >
> >> >***{Lunar and solar tides continually flex the crust of the Earth, and
> >> >probably cause some very gradual slippage of the crust. However, that
> >> >slippage occurs mostly in a direction parallel to the equator, and thus has
> >> >little influence on the orientation of the polar axis. (With respect to the
> >> >plane of the Earth's orbit, Earth's equator is inclined at about 23.5
> >> >degrees, and the plane of the Moon's orbit is inclined at about 5 degrees.)
> >> >--MJ}***
> >
> >As I understand the situation, the Indian plate is going north and hitting the
> >Asian plate there by making the Himalayan mountains. This is only one of
> >several
> >possible examples which counter your assumption that motion is mainly
> >along the
> >equator.
>
> ***{I never said that. You proposed the gravitational force of the Moon and
> the Sun as the mechanism underlying these hypothetical pole shifts. In
> response, I said that any crust slippage caused by tidal action would be
> mainly parallel to the equator. That is simply an unarguable fact. (Add up
> the vectors.) --MJ}***
>
> The earth, sun, and moon are inclined, but occasionally they line up so
> >that the gravity effects add.
>
> ***{Even when they are lined up, the rotation of the Earth ensures, by
> simple vector addition, that they torque the crust in a direction that is
> approximately parallel to the equator. It is only because the polar axis of
> the Earth is not exactly perpendicular to the plane of its orbit, that the
> tiny component of force which is not parallel to the equator exists. Thus
> this is not a plausible mechanism to account for the sorts of sudden amd
> large polar shifts that you propose. --MJ}***
>
> In addition the earth is also inclined so that this
> >tug is not uniform on the earth's surface.  Consequently, some land mass
> >are moved
> >more than others.  These are facts which you need to address.
>
> ***{The mechanism underlying continental drift remains somewhat
> controversial, but in my view the Earth is sweeping up thousands of tons of
> space debris every day, and, as a consequence, is getting larger. As the
> weight of the new material accumulates on the crust, the tectonic plates
> sink more deeply into the magma, and melt away on their bottom margins due
> to the rising temperatures. The result is a  continual upwelling of new
> material, which fills the widening cracks between continents and solidifies
> on the seafloor, adding to the crust. Each such rising plume of molten rock
> spreads out when it reaches the surface, exerting a horizontal force which
> pushes adjacent tectonic plates away from one another. The direction of
> that push, however, is *not* necessarily parallel to the equator. The plume
> rising up under the Indian ocean, for example, is pushing the Indian plate
> northward into the Asian plate, thereby giving birth to the Himalayas. It
> is the vector sum of all these pushes on the various tectonic plates that
> causes the location of the magnetic pole to slowly drift around. The
> pattern of that drifting over the last few hundred million years is mapped
> out at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html, and appears
> to be very gradual. These data support the continental drift theory, and
> show no evidence of the huge and catastrophic shifts that Michael
> Mandeville has apparently proposed. --MJ}***
>
> >> >
> >> >I agree, but then point out
> >> >>that this small energy can accumulate, perhaps in the elastic layer
> >>under the
> >> >>crust, so that an unstable situation can gradually develop.  If this
> >> >>assumption is correct, then a small nudge by the sun and moon could
> >>trigger a
> >> >>slide and release this energy, much like energy in the crust that is
> >>released
> >> >>by the slide that produces earthquakes.  Now we are engaging in dueling
> >> >>assumptions.  It is your move to explain how it is impossible for this
> >>energy
> >> >>to accumulate. Can you do this?
> >> >
> >> >***{A scientific skeptic doesn't have to prove that there is no possible
> >> >basis for an effect. All he has to do is shoot down the various specific
> >> >mechanisms that are proposed to account for it.
> >
> >You take the position of a lawyer who tries to get his client off by
> >proposing any
> >imaginable explanation for the crime other than that his client did the
> >deed.  The
> >truth is not important in this situation, only that the jury be sufficiently
> >confused to buy one of his arguments.  Is the kind of scientific
> >skepticism you
> >want to promote?
>
> ***{Relax, Ed. You wanted to kick the idea around, and so we are kicking it
> around. It's just getting kicked a little harder than you expected, that's
> all. :-) In any case, it is you, not I, who is straining credibility to its
> limits, in an attempt to persuade this particular dog to hunt. --MJ}***
>
> >> >
> >> >As for your notion that tidal energy "accumulates," my reaction is that the
> >> >evidence contradicts such a state of affairs. As I recall, (a) when the
> >> >Moon passes overhead, the crust typically has risen up by about 50 feet,
> >> >(b) when the Moon sets, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet, (c) when the
> >> >Moon is overhead on the opposite side of the Earth, the crust has risen by
> >> >50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust has fallen back by 50 feet
> >> >again. That means there is no accumulation.
> >>
> >> ***{My recollection that land tides are about 50 feet was from reading I
> >> did many years ago, and, upon reflection, seemed implausible to me.
> >> Therefore, in an attempt to verify or falsify that memory, I spent some
> >> time doing web searches, and came up with the following link:
> >> http://www.synapses.co.uk/astro/moon1.html. According to this article, land
> >> tides on Earth are a few centimeters, not 50 feet! Sorry about that. :-(
> >> --MJ}***
> >
> >You are forgiven.
>
> ***{Oddly, as I have continued to think about this, the "few centimeters"
> notion has also begun to seem implausible. Does anybody in the group know
> of an authoritative reference that could definitively answer this question?
> A reference to a specific measuring procedure and the data collected by
> that procedure would be nice. --MJ}***
>
> >> >
> >> >Accumulation would require a scenario such as: (a) as the Moon approaches
> >> >the zenith, the crust bulges up by 50 feet, (b) as the Moon sets, the crust
> >> >falls back by 35 feet, (c) as the Moon approaches zenith at the antipode,
> >> >the crust rises up by 50 feet again, and (d) at Moonrise, the crust falls
> >> >by 35 feet. Result: the crust would progressively rear 30 feet higher each
> >> >day until its stress limit was exceeded, after which it would suddenly
> >> >lurch back toward equilibrium. However, we know this isn't happening
> >> >because the Apollo astronauts left mirrors on the surface of the Moon, and,
> >> >by reflecting lasers off of them, the tide-related rise and fall of the
> >> >crust can be measured to within 30 cm. Nothing in the resulting massive
> >> >data base supports the notion that tidal energy is being stored in the
> >> >crust.
> >>
> >> ***{The above comments, also based on memory, are correct in terms of the
> >> 30 cm accuracy, I think. (I read that somewhere fairly recently.) However,
> >> if land tides are measured in centimeters rather than feet, then the laser
> >> reflection measurements become incapable of supporting my thesis. However,
> >> fortunately, I found the following comment in the above listed URL:
> >>
> >> "These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is
> >> very slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the
> >> Earth rotates.
> >
> >The crust does not return to the same position because the tectonic plates do
> >move. Observation counters your statement.
>
> ***{No it doesn't, because I was talking about the effects of tidal forces.
> Tidal forces are not what drives the tectonic plates. Their movement is
> caused by plumes of magma welling up from below, as I explained above.
> --MJ}***
>
> >
> >> It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
> >> These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
> >> slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
> >> rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."
> >
> >One again, this is a conclusion not based facts.  The land masses move
> >both along
> >the surface of the earth and toward the moon. Nowhere is there information
> >as to
> >how much of this energy is stored in the crust-magma interface.  I assert
> >that the
> >measured motions would have been slightly greater had all of the energy
> >imparted
> >to the crust been released immediately.  Because the measurements do not
> >address
> >this effect, the possibility that this assertion is correct can not be
> >completely
> >eliminated.
>
> ***{Come on, Ed: the tectonic plates are floating on *liquid*. How can the
> interface between a solid and a liquid store gravitational potential
> energy? The plates are of lighter material than the liquid on which they
> float and, by Archimede's principle, will sink until they displace an
> amount of liquid equal to their weights. The only thing that prevents them
> from discharging *all* of their potential energy in this way is their
> tendency to stick against the solid material of adjacent plates. For
> example, the North American plate is riding up over the Pacific plate,
> along the California coast, and as the Pacific plate melts and subducts
> beneath it, the North American plate settles downward, accompanied by
> earthquakes. (See http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html .) This is
> the only process by which gravitational potential energy can be stored in a
> tectonic plate, and the storage is at the interface between colliding
> plates, not at the interface between the plate and the magma beneath it.
>
> Moreover, the plate-to-plate interface is not suited to the type of hidden
> storage of energy that Mandeville's theory requires. To make use of it he
> would have to allege, for example, that the North American plate has ridden
> up to a really dangerous level above the Pacific plate. Unfortunately, the
> sort of stored energy you need would have Los Angeles (which is on the
> eastern edge of the Pacific plate) perched at the bottom of a cliff several
> thousand feet high, a state of affairs that clearly does not exist. Indeed,
> about the only thing I can think of that would offer the kind of hidden,
> stored energy that this idea requires would be the sudden slippage of a
> major icecap into the sea. But that's a very old and completely different
> theory.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what the supporting measurements are for the above statement,
> >> but if it is true, then accumulation of tidal stresses in the crust is
> >> precluded, as I originally said, albeit for a different reason.
> >
> >Precluded only if you ignore my assertion.
>
> ***{Or if your assertion is incorrect. :-) --MJ}***
>
> >
> >Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 16:28:04 2000
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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:52:36 -0700, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> >> It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape.
> >> These land tides are not noticeable because the shifting they cause is very
> >> slight, very slow, and the rock returns to the same position as the Earth
> >> rotates. It has no overall effect on the Earth's position or shape."
> >
> >One again, this is a conclusion not based facts.  The land masses move both along
> >the surface of the earth and toward the moon. Nowhere is there information as to
> >how much of this energy is stored in the crust-magma interface.  I assert that the
> >measured motions would have been slightly greater had all of the energy imparted
> >to the crust been released immediately.  Because the measurements do not address
> >this effect, the possibility that this assertion is correct can not be completely
> >eliminated.
>
> Please remember that the Earth is a fluid spheroid.  Yes, the crust
> rises due to tidal effects of the sun and moon.  But so do the
> underlying layers.  The sun's and moon's gravity cause the whole earth
> to become very slightly elongated in a direction pointing to the
> sun/moon gravity vector (or, if you use the "push" idea of gravity,
> there's a greater push force on the sides of the Earth away from the
> sun/moon vector causing the elongation).

Granted, the earth underneath the crust acts like a liquid.  After all, seismic waves
to not pass and lava, which is thought to come from this source, is clearly a liquid.
Nevertheless, do we know anything about the properties of this "liquid"?  Given the
great pressure and the possibility that lava does not truly represent the properties
of this material, is it not possible that the material might be more like rubber than
a liquid? Is it not possible that energy can be stored in this material to be released
suddenly, thereby causing true liquid formation for a brief time as the crust shifts?

Regards,
Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 17:20:43 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 5:24 PM 10/13/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Is it not possible that energy can be stored in this material to be released
>suddenly, thereby causing true liquid formation for a brief time as the
>crust shifts?


There is evidence that sudden viscosity "phase shifts" can occur for rocks
in motion in rock slides.  This evidence, if I recall correctly, was
obtained by analysis and simulation of rock run-outs from major rock
slides, i.e. the breakdown of large rock cliffs.  It was discovered that
vary large rock slides must have a very low vioscosity, similar to water or
even less than that, and sometimes can run-out for more than a mile.  I
don't know if any explanation has been found.  Sorry, I have no refs.
either.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 18:51:09 2000
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X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, webhead-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Bill B. on "In Search Of" 
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The film crew for FOX "In Search Of" came by and taped me while out in the
garage messing with microwave ovens.  Fried CDs, burst eggs, arcing foil,
ball lightning from candles, glowing light bulb plasmas and fluorescent
tubes!  And crude estimations of poodle explosion times.  The show will be
aired in early November (it's the Urban Legends episode), and with luck
I'll be on for about 4 minutes or so.  I don't yet know the date, or even
if their lawyers will make them cut that part!  :) 

   EPISODE 7
   http://www.insearchofonline.com/episodes/urbanlegends/

   FORUM
   http://www.insearchofonline.com/searchers_forum/


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


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Horace Heffner wrote:
 
> There is evidence that sudden viscosity "phase shifts" can occur for rocks
> in motion in rock slides.  This evidence, if I recall correctly, was
> obtained by analysis and simulation of rock run-outs from major rock
> slides, i.e. the breakdown of large rock cliffs.  It was discovered that
> vary large rock slides must have a very low vioscosity, similar to water or
> even less than that, and sometimes can run-out for more than a mile.  I
> don't know if any explanation has been found.  Sorry, I have no refs.
> either.

Speaking of rock slides, there's one brewing in the Canary Islands which
could cause a massive tidal wave in the Atlantic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_956000/956280.stm

Terry

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PatentCafe Eye on IP Weekender
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:36:51 -0400
From: "Laura Westlake" <lwestlake cafezine.com>
Reply-To: <lwestlake cafezine.com>
To: "Eye on IP"  <ipfrontline cafezine.com>

Patent Cafe - http://www.patentcafe.com

Eye On IP WEEKENDER 	    Saturday 14OCT00
Volume 04: Number 11

====================================
PATENT CAFE(TM) INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WEBSITE NEWS 

WEEKENDER EDITION of EYE ON IP/IP FRONTLINE

====================================

Settle in and enjoy this week's edition of 
the Weekender, where we profile one of PatentCafe
Magazine's top editors, and one of their selected articles.

============SPOTLIGHT=================

THE CHEF BEHIND THE PATENTCAFE	

Andy Gibbs is the CEO of PatentCafe.com, Inc., and
an independent inventor with numerous patents, author,
speaker, entrepreneur. He founded a number of manufacturing
companies based on his intellectual property with total product
sales approaching the $1 billion mark. He has also served as
Executive Vice President of Marketing and Business Development
for a Fortune 100 company.

Andy also holds a seat on the US Patent and Trademark Office's
Public Patent Advisory Committee.
 
Put all this together and you'll find his many articles rich
in depth and perspective. He's worked "both sides of the fence,"
as an independent inventor and as 'the big business.' His articles
speak with candor and can-do. For this Weekender we've selected his
newest article about the importance of adopting the Patent Office's
new Electronic Filing Systems: 

"Patent Attorneys and the Pony Express":

http://www.cafezine.com/index_article.asp?id=230&deptId=4

=================AND =================

Like the article? Click the "E-mail This" icon 
and send it to a friend!

=======================================

Submit your own article or NewsTip!  See:
http://www.cafezine.com/submit_article.asp?deptid=22

... 'til Monday, enjoy.

Andy Gibbs, President
PatentCafe.com, Inc.

direct replies to editor patentcafe.com
____________________________________________________
To unsubscribe write to editor patentcafe.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 21:50:55 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:47:26 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:06:14 -0800:
[snip]
>Note that the centrifugal force in discussion is due to the rotation of the
>earth-moon system, not the rotation of the earth.  The rotation of the
>earth has only to do with the apparent rotation of the bulges.
[snip]
Is it possible that the orbit of the Earth itself about the centre of
gravity of the Earth-Moon system is elastically stretched in the direction
of the Moon? (with the major axis of the ellipse continually pointing at the
Moon).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 21:55:49 2000
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
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--- Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Nevertheless, do we know anything about the properties of this "liquid"? 
> Given the
> great pressure and the possibility that lava does not truly represent the
> properties
> of this material, is it not possible that the material might be more like
> rubber than
> a liquid? Is it not possible that energy can be stored in this material
> to be released
> suddenly, thereby causing true liquid formation for a brief time as the
> crust shifts?

Insufficient knowledge of the chemical and physical properties of the
materials below the crust is perhaps the greatest limitation at present to
our understanding of what goes on down there. We are not completly bereft
of knowledge, however. The turnover of mantle material over the eons brings
up material from a certain depth. (Sorry, I am not expert in this topic,
and I won't be able to be quantitative. However, I like to read about it
and be informed in a general, somewhat "scientifically literate" way.) 
When we are talking about the shallower mantle, the pressures there are
still within the reach of diamond anvils, and properties of many (most?) of
the known mantle minerals and other minerals of suspected geophysical
importance have been measured at high pressure. In fact, the reason that
more of Earth's interior is solid rather than liquid is that the high
pressure prevents the typical constituents from melting. However, we still
cannot test materials at pressures corresponding to very deep. Seismic data
tell a lot about the elastic properties in general, but not in complete
detail. Most mantle material is said to be very viscous. When subjected to
sustained force over a long time, it flows. This is the time scale of
continental drift. When subjected to rapidly varying force, as when a
seismic wave traverses it, the material acts like an elestic solid. It's a
like extremely viscous silly putty.

An elastic medium stores energy when it is deformed, and it releases the
energy again when the deformation is removed. A perfectly elastic medium
releases all the energy without loss. A dissipative medium transforms some
of the energy into heat. A medium with hysteresis does not fully return to
its earlier state.

An elastic medium  releases energy after the distorting force is removed,
with some fraction turned into heat. In order for the medium to keep the
energy after the distorting force is removed, as happens every 6 hours or
so in tidal motion, there must be some sort of rachet mechanism that
prevents the normal elastic relaxation. Even if there were such a
mechanism, subsequent cycles of the same force magnitude would not further
distort the already distorted material. It's like a diode rectifier
charging a filter capacitor: once the cap is charged to the ac voltage
peak, it can accept no further voltage nor energy. Or, another analogy, its
like a ferromagnetic material with hysteresis: It retains some energy after
each half cycle, but there is no continuous increase of stored energy.

Earthquakes release energy that has been stored by a form of
rachet---sticking between tectonic plates. The charging force is
slow-moving, but the force is large. It is applied by tectonic plate
motion. Stored energy keeps accumulating in the elastic distortion of the
plate material. Note that in this system the force acts in a single
direction for a long time and can grow to be very large. If the stress
exceeds the strength of the sticking points, the material suddenly ruptures
(usually at a weak point, like a fault).









=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:10:14 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:47:26
+1100:
[snip]
>Is it possible that the orbit of the Earth itself about the centre of
>gravity of the Earth-Moon system is elastically stretched in the direction
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^
This should have been "elliptically" (bloody spell-checker 8^).

>of the Moon? (with the major axis of the ellipse continually pointing at the
>Moon).
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 13 22:59:19 2000
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October 13, 2,000

Vortex,

Does anyone know if Fusion Technology is still being published and if
so, who is the new editor? I believe Miley quit the post eff. August.
Also, does it have a website?

-ak-

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:53:00 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Ed,

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:24:22 -0700, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Granted, the earth underneath the crust acts like a liquid.  After all, seismic waves
>to not pass and lava, which is thought to come from this source, is clearly a liquid.
>Nevertheless, do we know anything about the properties of this "liquid"?  Given the
>great pressure and the possibility that lava does not truly represent the properties
>of this material, is it not possible that the material might be more like rubber than
>a liquid? Is it not possible that energy can be stored in this material to be released
>suddenly, thereby causing true liquid formation for a brief time as the crust shifts?

Some of the properties of the upper mantle are deduced from seismic
waves (some properties of all distinct layers have been identified).
Supposedly, the upper mantle is Olivine(probably spelled wrong).  

That's not the same stuff as magma (lava).  Olivine is an iron
compound that can take many different crystalline structures depending
on pressure.  Magma is molten slag (rock) with varying composition.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 02:42:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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>At 10:51 AM 10/13/00 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>***{I beg to differ: the typical use for the type of fan that I see in the
>>photo is *not* ducted. A typical application would be to cut a circular
>>hole in the vertical wall of a warehouse, just below the roof peak, and
>>install the fan in that hole.
>
>That's what John and I meant by a duct....it forces the fan to move air
>from one place to another rather then just to stir the air locally.

***{But that makes no sense. The back pressure on the fan in that situation
would not be measurably different than in the situation where the fan was
sitting in a safety cage on the floor of a warehouse. Remember: the
pressure difference across a fan working inside a duct behaves in the same
way as the voltage difference across a battery working in a section of
copper wire--to wit: the total resistance to current flow, Rt, is equal to
the sum of the resistances of the various sections that make up the loop,
which we may call R1, R2, etc. The resistance of a given section, in turn,
is equal to the resistivity, r, of that section, times its length, L,
divided by its cross sectional area, A. Hence we have R = R1 + R2 + ... +
Rn, where Rx = (rx)(Lx)/Ax.

To see how this works, lets begin with an electrical analogy. Suppose you
take a 12 volt battery and two 20-foot lengths of 10-ga copper wire, attach
each wire to a terminal, go down to the seacoast, and place the first wire
in the ocean. Next, you place the second wire in ... the ocean. What
happens? The answer: the battery explodes. Why? Because even with the
maximum possible value for L of a bit over 40 feet, the average cross
sectional area, A, of the path between those points is so huge that the
value of rL/A is effectively zero. Hence the only resistance to current
flow between the terminals is that afforded by the two lengths of 10 ga
copper wire, which, as you know, is also going to be very close to zero.
Hence I = E/R = 12/0 = infinity, and the battery explodes.

Now let's imagine a parallel example with a fan. The fan, let us suppose,
is the one we have been discussing, which has a diameter of 60 inches.
Therefore, place at the midpoint of a straight duct that is 40 feet long
and has an inside diameter of 60 inches. In this case, the 20 feet of duct
on the intake side of the fan is analogous to the 20 feet of copper wire
connecting the positive terminal of the battery to the ocean, the 20 feet
of pipe on the outlet side of the fan is analogous to the 20 feet of wire
connecting the negative terminal of the battery to the ocean, and the
atmosphere is analogous to the ocean. Result: the two cases are *exactly*
parallel. The length of the path through the atmosphere is finite, but is
tiny by comparison to its average cross sectional area, and so its
resistance is effectively zero, as was the case of the resistance of the
ocean. Hence the total airflow resistance of this setup is solely a
function of the resistance of the pipe--i.e., R = rL/A = 40r/Ľ[(60/12)^2].

How does the above reasoning apply to an exhaust fan operating in a hole
cut in the side of a warehouse, where there are multiple wide-open
garage-type bay doors? Simple: L is the thickness of the wall in which the
hole is cut--i.e., effectively zero--and A = Ľ[(60/12)^2]. Result:
practically speaking, there is no difference between this case and the case
where the fan is operating in a safety cage in open air--which means: the
case for which the power consumption figures were given in the table, in
all likelihood, is the one in which the fan is freewheeling in open air,
exactly as Newman assumed.

Bottom line: his test may be a solid indication of "over unity"
operation--that is, an indication that his motor can effectively tap into
some heretofore unutilized source of energy. (*Real* OU--i.e., getting more
energy out of a system than is in the system--is of course utterly
impossible.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>***{Why do you continue to waste your time with an approach that you know
>>will not work? Pardon me for being blunt, but are you interested in
>>determining whether the damn motor is over unity, or are you interested in
>>imposing your will on Newman?
>
>I want to see if the motor is over-unity...and, if my tests show that it is
>not o-u, I do not want Newman to be able to claim that I operated his motor
>incorrectly.

***{It's time to grow up, Scott--which means: you need to recognize that
other people are free agents. It is simply a fact that you have no control
over how Newman, or anyone, will respond to your findings if you test his
motor. Thus all you can do is obtain or build one of his motors, set up a
reasonable test, encourage and respond fairly to feedback from him and
others at each step along the way, and let the chips fall where they may.
In other words, just do the same sort of thing you did with the Mizuno cell
and various other similar gadgets in the past. What happens at the end of
the process, when others, including Newman, evaluate the quality of your
work, is simply out of your hands. You need to accept that state of
affairs, and cease to waste your time worrying about it. --MJ}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 01:49:28 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 03:46:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
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>See:
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,39413,00.html

***{Here is the brief comment to which you referred:

> 3:00 a.m. Oct. 12, 2000 PDT
>
>             MOUNTAIN VIEW, California -- NASA scientists are
>             beginning to suspect that the widely reported water
>             channels on Mars were actually caused by jets of
>             carbon dioxide.
>
>             At a conference at NASA's Ames Research Center,
>             NASA researcher Robert Haberle said scientists now
>             think Martian gullies believed to have been carved by
>             liquid water may instead have been produced by flutes
>             of liquid carbon dioxide, a finding that could have
>             profound effects on future missions to the Red Planet.
>

Frankly, the notion that such channels were caused by liquid carbon dioxide
strikes me as preposterous. The only place it could come from would be
meteor bombardment, which would induce the reaction CaCO3 + heat --> CaO +
CO2. However, as soon as things cooled back down, you would get CaO + CO2
--> CaCO3 + heat, and things would be right back where they started. Bottom
line: this dog won't hunt.

I would add that this sounds like a defensive reaction to the increasing
evidence that there is life on Mars. There seems to be a faction within the
U.S. government that doesn't want this possibility to be taken seriously,
and the silliness about rivers of liquid CO2 may be simply their latest bit
of disinformation.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 02:12:56 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 01:17:31 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 3:47 PM 10/14/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:06:14 -0800:
>[snip]
>>Note that the centrifugal force in discussion is due to the rotation of the
>>earth-moon system, not the rotation of the earth.  The rotation of the
>>earth has only to do with the apparent rotation of the bulges.
>[snip]
>Is it possible that the orbit of the Earth itself about the centre of
>gravity of the Earth-Moon system is elastically stretched in the direction
>of the Moon? (with the major axis of the ellipse continually pointing at the
>Moon).

I am not sure exactly what you are asking.   How do you "stretch" an orbit?
The orbit is what it is.  Relativity has an almost imperceptable effect on
the earth-moon system, so what follows assumes these effects and
explanations are to be ignored.

Yes, the earth's orbit about the center of gravity of the earth-moon system
is elliptical, but this has almost nothing to do with the tidal bump that
opposes the moon, except that the earth's obital ellipse correlates with
the moon's much larger ellipse, and the total distance between the earth
and moon affects the SIZE of both of the tidal bumps.  However, there is
not much eccentricity to the orbits, and that eccentricity affects the size
of both bumps in a very minor way on a roughly 28 day basis.  The moon has
the wider variations of distance from the center of mass, which, on a
monthly basis make the tides somewhat larger or smaller, depending on
whether the moon (actually the earth-moon system) is closer to perigee
(nearest) or apogee (farthest).   The earth's orbit about the center of
mass has almost no effect at all compared to the moon's motion (changing
distance from) the center of mass.  Any attempt at explaining the bulge
opposing the moon as being equal in size to the bulge facing the moon being
due to the eccentricity of the earth's orbit about their center of mass
would be blatantly and completely wrong.

If the earth and moon were the same mass, say the mass of the earth, and
both rotating every 24 hours or so, and in a perfectly circrular orbit,
then the situation might be clearer.  The tidal bumps on the earth would be
larger, and  would have nothing to do with the eccentricity of the earth's
(or moon's) orbit because there would be none.   It would be clear that the
center of mass of the earth-moon system is then far away from the center of
the earth, thus avoiding fuzzy thinking about that aspect of the system.
The motion of the tidal bumps, within the earth's reference frame, would be
seen clearly to be due to the earth's rotation, and the equality of size of
the bumps due to the stretching of the earth in a nearly uniform
gravitational field, and to the nearly linear variation in orbital period
across the cross section of the earth.  The back bump is there due to
inirtia; the front bump is there due to increased gravitational pull.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 02:19:46 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 01:24:35 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
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At 3:46 AM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>Frankly, the notion that such channels were caused by liquid carbon dioxide
>strikes me as preposterous. The only place it could come from would be
>meteor bombardment, which would induce the reaction CaCO3 + heat --> CaO +
>CO2. However, as soon as things cooled back down, you would get CaO + CO2
>--> CaCO3 + heat, and things would be right back where they started. Bottom
>line: this dog won't hunt.


I haven't read the article, but think the implied source of CO2 is the
martian atmosphere, from which it would condense when sufficiently cooled.
The problem with this idea is that CO2 at martian pressure does not assume
liquid form when it changes state, it goes directly to solid form, as it
does at earth's pressure.  When it reverts to gas phase, it sublimates
directly to gas phase without and intervening "melting".  It takes a lot of
pressure to maintain CO2 as a liquid.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: pole shift
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>This discussion reminds me of a question that I would like one of 
>you clever mathematicians to think about.


Lets suppose that you had an earth with the water that is now in the 
oceans contained in a layer below the crust. Now lets suppose that 
God caused the crust to crack in several places releasing all this 
water. The water, being under considerable pressure would squirt out. 
The crust would settle inward. My question has to do with an increase 
in the rotational speed of the planet. According to the Biblical 
Paradigm, the planet used to make only 360 rotations per year, and 
now it makes 365.25.

At first it all seemed perfectly logical, the crust collapsing inward 
would be just like an ice skater pulling her arms in as she spins, 
Then it occurred to me that this effect would be at least partly 
counter balanced by the water rushing out.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 08:28:53 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:25:53 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: LaFonte Group site rebuilt with video, tests going great!
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Mitchell Jones wrote;

>  Moreover, as I explained here long ago, by my theory of
>electromagnetics, the concept employed by Newman ought to be workable. That
>doesn't mean his specific embodiment has to work, of course.

I'm fascinated by this Mitchell. Is your theory posted somewhere? 
Basically I'd like to know where you think the surplus energy is 
coming from. 

>
>By the way: I can't resist pointing out that the outlines of the scheme by
>which Newman alleges that his technology is being ripped off (i.e., that it
>is being manufactured by government contractors for use in the military) is
>virtually identical to the method by which Burnelli was ripped off. Since I
>doubt that Newman has even heard of Burnelli, this is either a bizarre
>coincidence, or else we *really do* live under fascism, and it *really
>does* work the way I have been saying it works. :-)
>

If Newman's assertion is true, I 'm upset that the military is 
helping themselves to his technology, without at least having the 
decency to compensate him for it. Have you heard the story of his 
trial and appeal? He filed a Writ of Mandamus against the appeals 
court judge accusing him of prejudice. The judge was one Thomas 
Penfield Jackson, his former law partner was the 8th,  and only 
unindited   coconspirator in the Watergate case.

As far as our living in a fascist state, to paraphrase one of the 
architects of the system, Albert Pike, "doubt it not."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 08:34:43 2000
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Horace Heffner wrote:

The back bump is there due to inertia; the front bump is
there due to increased gravitational pull.

Hi All,

The discussion of the "opposite bulge" problem has been
excellent.

Horace, I don't quite get how "the back bump is there
due to inertia."  Maybe you could illuminate this with
an ascii drawing.

Thanks, Jack Smith


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Michael Schaffer wrote:

> --- Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > Nevertheless, do we know anything about the properties of this "liquid"?
> > Given the
> > great pressure and the possibility that lava does not truly represent the
> > properties
> > of this material, is it not possible that the material might be more like
> > rubber than
> > a liquid? Is it not possible that energy can be stored in this material
> > to be released
> > suddenly, thereby causing true liquid formation for a brief time as the
> > crust shifts?
>
> Insufficient knowledge of the chemical and physical properties of the
> materials below the crust is perhaps the greatest limitation at present to
> our understanding of what goes on down there. We are not completly bereft
> of knowledge, however. The turnover of mantle material over the eons brings
> up material from a certain depth. (Sorry, I am not expert in this topic,
> and I won't be able to be quantitative. However, I like to read about it
> and be informed in a general, somewhat "scientifically literate" way.)
> When we are talking about the shallower mantle, the pressures there are
> still within the reach of diamond anvils, and properties of many (most?) of
> the known mantle minerals and other minerals of suspected geophysical
> importance have been measured at high pressure. In fact, the reason that
> more of Earth's interior is solid rather than liquid is that the high
> pressure prevents the typical constituents from melting. However, we still
> cannot test materials at pressures corresponding to very deep. Seismic data
> tell a lot about the elastic properties in general, but not in complete
> detail. Most mantle material is said to be very viscous. When subjected to
> sustained force over a long time, it flows. This is the time scale of
> continental drift. When subjected to rapidly varying force, as when a
> seismic wave traverses it, the material acts like an elestic solid. It's a
> like extremely viscous silly putty.
>
> An elastic medium stores energy when it is deformed, and it releases the
> energy again when the deformation is removed. A perfectly elastic medium
> releases all the energy without loss. A dissipative medium transforms some
> of the energy into heat. A medium with hysteresis does not fully return to
> its earlier state.
>
> An elastic medium  releases energy after the distorting force is removed,
> with some fraction turned into heat. In order for the medium to keep the
> energy after the distorting force is removed, as happens every 6 hours or
> so in tidal motion, there must be some sort of rachet mechanism that
> prevents the normal elastic relaxation. Even if there were such a
> mechanism, subsequent cycles of the same force magnitude would not further
> distort the already distorted material. It's like a diode rectifier
> charging a filter capacitor: once the cap is charged to the ac voltage
> peak, it can accept no further voltage nor energy. Or, another analogy, its
> like a ferromagnetic material with hysteresis: It retains some energy after
> each half cycle, but there is no continuous increase of stored energy.
>
> Earthquakes release energy that has been stored by a form of
> rachet---sticking between tectonic plates. The charging force is
> slow-moving, but the force is large. It is applied by tectonic plate
> motion. Stored energy keeps accumulating in the elastic distortion of the
> plate material. Note that in this system the force acts in a single
> direction for a long time and can grow to be very large. If the stress
> exceeds the strength of the sticking points, the material suddenly ruptures
> (usually at a weak point, like a fault).

Let's explore this storage mechanism a little more.  First of all, I think it
is safe to say that the interface between the crust and the supporting
material is not uniform.  The crust is thicker in some places and the
supporting material has a wide range of chemical and mechanical properties.
In addition, Mandeville assumes that the skeletons of ancient meteors are
imbedded in the crust and penetrate into the supporting "liquid".  These are
proposed to act as pinning sites which prevent the crust from moving in these
local regions. Add to this nonuniformity is the nonuniform tug of the sun-moon
gravity system and the nonuniform effect of solar emissions.  As a result the
earth is being stretched, pushed, and uplifted in conflicting directions.
Furthermore, let's suppose the underlying rock in many areas is a semi-solid
(or semi-liquid if you prefer) while under pressure, but becomes a true liquid
when the pressure is slightly reduced.  I think these are reasonable
assumptions consistent with our present ignorance.

So, how would energy be stored in such a system? First of all, I can imagine
the pressure in the supporting semi-liquid being reduced in local regions as a
result of earth tides.  If this pressure reduction were sufficient, newly
formed liquid rock could flow into the region of reduced pressure. Once the
pressure returned to normal in a few hours, the rock would return to its
semi-liquid state.  As a result, local regions of the crust would be slowly
moved from their equilibrium positions.  This process would also cause the
plates to drift. At some time in the future, after sufficient energy had been
accumulated and when a particularly strong uplift had occurred, the amount of
liquid formed would allow the crust in a local region to return to a lower
energy position.  This local motion and release of energy would cause massive
remelting of the semi-liquid so that liquid formation would spread to more
distance sites. As a result, an increasing amount of crust could essentially
float and assume a new position which might be well beyond equilibrium in the
opposite direction because of inertia.  Of course, some plates would move more
freely than others causing massive ruptures at plate boundaries. Once motion
stopped, the liquid lubricant would return to the semi-liquid state and the
crust would again be locked in position until sufficient energy had again been
stored to cause general remelting.  Does this process make sense?

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 10:11:06 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:15:46 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 7:32 AM 10/14/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Horace, I don't quite get how "the back bump is there
>due to inertia."  Maybe you could illuminate this with
>an ascii drawing.


An experiment that you do yourself might work.  I don't see how a drawing
would help, or maybe I just don't know what to put in the drawing to make
anything clear.

Do you see how the centrifugal force is due to inirtia?  If you tie a
string to a metal nut or washer and swing it about your head, the
centripetal force is the force on the string you exert to keep your end of
the string centered.  The centrifugal force is the matching force from the
other end of the string caused by the inirtia of the nut.  To maintain the
circular motion, the nut is being made to accelerate by the centripital
force.  Its resistance to this acceleration is called its inirtia.

Now, suppose you attach two nuts to the end of the string using two rubber
bands, one a short thick one and one a long thin one.  The rubber bands are
looped through their respective nuts so as to add an extention to the
string.  The short thick one represents the larger closer-in gravitational
force and the long thin one the further out gravitational force. As you
spin the string the nuts will now separate the faster you swing.  This
separation increase is equivalent to the formation of the bumps.  The back
nut moves even further away from the center of spin due to its inirtia
dragging it outward with more force because the acceleration it experiences
at the larger radius is larger, and also  due to the smaller force on it.
The two nuts therefore separate relative to each other.

An alternative experiment is to use two identical rubber bands, but add an
extra length of string to the second rubber band.  This simulates the force
of gravity, the centripital force from the center of rotation, being nearly
identical for the two nuts.  However, the nut at the larger radius will
experience more acceleration and thus will exert more force via its
inirtia.  Its rubber band will stretch more, and thus the two nuts will
separate, simulating the bumps forming.

An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then
use a rubber band to tie a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now
represents the interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the
two nuts separate.  The inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the
inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent to the back bump.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 11:41:28 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:37:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy article in N.Y. Times
Resent-Message-ID: <"wdu9F2.0.jo6.0YAwv" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>
>>The only "Federal research" into this topic that I have seen involved
>>crashing vehicles into concrete barriers. (I have actually watched film of
>>such tests.) If you know of some other type of research, based on auto
>>accident statistics, that reaches the opposite conclusion, please cite a
>>reference, so I can proceed to chop said studies to pieces.
>
>They count dead people and multiply by the miles on the odometers. How can
>you tear that apart?

***{The validity of a conclusion depends on the specific details of the
reasoning process that was employed. Since this claim (that SUV's and
full-sized pickups are less safe in collisions than ordinary cars) violates
the laws of physics, any person educated in physics can draw the obvious
conclusion, and be confident that any study which claims otherwise contains
a defect in its reasoning. --MJ}***

The facts are available at lots of sites, both pubic
>and private. Check out the NTSB, NHTSA  (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/) or
>Consumer Reports. It is common knowledge that SUVs are not quite as safe as
>regular cars. Deny it all you want, facts are facts.

***{You are brazen, I'll give you that. I guess you assume that, since you
obviously don't bother to read most of the references I give you, I will
not bother to read the references you give to me! Well, here's a flash for
you: I, unlike you, actually checked out the NHTSA website that you
referenced, and, when I did a search on "SUV safety" I got a *ton* of hits,
and they *all*, in terms of substance, support my position rather than
yours. For example, at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe I
found the following:

> NHTSA Summary Report Number DOT HS 808 569
>                                                                 April 1997
>
> Relationship of Vehicle Weight to Fatality and Injury Risk in
> Model Year 1985-93 Passenger Cars and Light Trucks
>
> Large vehicles have historically been more stable and provided more
> protection for their own occupants than small
> ones, but they presented a greater hazard to other road users. Between
> 1985 and 1993, the population of light trucks -
> pickups, sport utility vehicles (SUV) and vans - increased by 50 percent
> in the United States. Since the major
> downsizing of passenger cars during 1975-82, light trucks have had a
> substantial and growing weight advantage over
> cars. By 1992, the number of fatalities in collisions between cars and
> light trucks exceeded the number in car-to-car
> collisions. In car-light truck collisions, 80 percent of the fatalities
> are occupants of the cars.

Any questions? :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I am pleased to see the NHTSA is working on human factors and automated
>"intelligent transportation systems" (crash avoidance systems). That is
>where the ultimate answer lies, decades from now. Let machines do the work!
>Their response time and coordination is better than ours.
>
>- Jed

***{The Department of Transportation, including the NHTSA, should be
abolished. It is their edicts to the auto industry, supposedly in pursuit
of the imbecilic goal of "improved gas mileage," that forced the downsizing
of the American automobile, and *created* the disastrous size imbalance
which exists today between cars and light trucks. By ordering auto
companies to produce "fuel efficient" cars, they in effect forced them to
destroy the American automobile, replacing it with the unsafe, Europeanized
compact garbage that, in collisions with light trucks, is resulting the the
carnage described above. And now these statist, authoritarian *scum* have
the unmitigated gall to call for the downsizing of light trucks, in an
attempt to "alleviate" the carnage which they themselves caused.
Unfortunately the average "American," after having spent his formative
years in government "educational" institutions, is a slobbering retard who
worships authority, obtains his information only from approved sources, and
will continue to swallow this nonsense hook, line, and sinker. Thus you
will "win" this argument in the only way that matters: your harebrained
schemes, and worse, will continue to be enacted into law, until this
country finally collapses into a nightmare dictatorship which even you will
abhor. Unfortunately, when that happens--and it will happen in your
lifetime--it will be too late to turn back. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 12:11:53 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>At 7:32 AM 10/14/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>
>>Horace, I don't quite get how "the back bump is there
>>due to inertia."  Maybe you could illuminate this with
>>an ascii drawing.
>
>
>An experiment that you do yourself might work.  I don't see how a drawing
>would help, or maybe I just don't know what to put in the drawing to make
>anything clear.
>
>Do you see how the centrifugal force is due to inirtia?  If you tie a
>string to a metal nut or washer and swing it about your head, the
>centripetal force is the force on the string you exert to keep your end of
>the string centered.  The centrifugal force is the matching force from the
>other end of the string caused by the inirtia of the nut.  To maintain the
>circular motion, the nut is being made to accelerate by the centripital
>force.  Its resistance to this acceleration is called its inirtia.
>
>Now, suppose you attach two nuts to the end of the string using two rubber
>bands, one a short thick one and one a long thin one.  The rubber bands are
>looped through their respective nuts so as to add an extention to the
>string.  The short thick one represents the larger closer-in gravitational
>force and the long thin one the further out gravitational force. As you
>spin the string the nuts will now separate the faster you swing.  This
>separation increase is equivalent to the formation of the bumps.  The back
>nut moves even further away from the center of spin due to its inirtia
>dragging it outward with more force because the acceleration it experiences
>at the larger radius is larger, and also  due to the smaller force on it.
>The two nuts therefore separate relative to each other.
>
>An alternative experiment is to use two identical rubber bands, but add an
>extra length of string to the second rubber band.  This simulates the force
>of gravity, the centripital force from the center of rotation, being nearly
>identical for the two nuts.  However, the nut at the larger radius will
>experience more acceleration and thus will exert more force via its
>inirtia.  Its rubber band will stretch more, and thus the two nuts will
>separate, simulating the bumps forming.
>
>An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then
>use a rubber band to tie a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now
>represents the interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the
>two nuts separate.  The inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the
>inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent to the back bump.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

***{An excellent explanation, Horace! Bravo! (By the way, not to be a wet
blanket or anything, but that spelling should be "inertia," not "inirtia."
:-) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 12:12:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:54:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"c8rnQ3.0.Az.A_Awv" mx1>
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>At 3:46 AM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>Frankly, the notion that such channels were caused by liquid carbon dioxide
>>strikes me as preposterous. The only place it could come from would be
>>meteor bombardment, which would induce the reaction CaCO3 + heat --> CaO +
>>CO2. However, as soon as things cooled back down, you would get CaO + CO2
>>--> CaCO3 + heat, and things would be right back where they started. Bottom
>>line: this dog won't hunt.
>
>
>I haven't read the article, but think the implied source of CO2 is the
>martian atmosphere

***{The present Martian atmosphere has a maximum pressure of about 8 mbar
(about .008 atm), which *ain't hardly* going to yield up rivers of liquid
CO2, unless that CO2 is first released by some external event--e.g., meteor
bombardment, as I suggested. However, as I also noted, such releases would
be quickly reversed, bringing the situation right back where it started.
--MJ}***

, from which it would condense when sufficiently cooled.
>The problem with this idea is that CO2 at martian pressure does not assume
>liquid form when it changes state, it goes directly to solid form, as it
>does at earth's pressure.  When it reverts to gas phase, it sublimates
>directly to gas phase without and intervening "melting".  It takes a lot of
>pressure to maintain CO2 as a liquid.

***{Absolutely correct: it takes far more pressure than would result from
offgassing due to meteor bombardment, I would think. (If Mars had been
bombarded that severely, it would be bigger than Earth.) --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 13:16:10 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: UV Photo-Remediation of Radwastes?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:14:01 -0700
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IF the UV photons are creating Light Lepton Pairs in the water, then producing
Neutral  P* -D* and Electrino (e*) species, they should effect Remediation of water-soluble 
(dissolved) Radwastes.

 http://www.wisconsinsprings.com/catFiltUVSter.htm

One of these units could be used for checking it out.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 13:32:10 2000
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:36:22 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"wifRR.0.Xm5.7ACwv" mx1>
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At 1:54 PM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{The present Martian atmosphere has a maximum pressure of about 8 mbar
>(about .008 atm), which *ain't hardly* going to yield up rivers of liquid
>CO2, unless that CO2 is first released by some external event--e.g., meteor
>bombardment, as I suggested. However, as I also noted, such releases would
>be quickly reversed, bringing the situation right back where it started.
>--MJ}***
>


Well, 0.008 bar represents about 0.12 pounds per square inch of CO2 which
can precipitate out of the atmosphere if the temperature goes below -56.6
deg. C.  That is a lot of CO2 to snow out of the atmosphere.  The martian
high winds would make it accumulate in gullys and valleys, and there it
could glaciate.  If a pressure above 5.2 bar is reached, due to the CO2
snow pack, then it can liquify when it warms up.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 13:34:19 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 2:10 PM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{An excellent explanation, Horace! Bravo! (By the way, not to be a wet
>blanket or anything, but that spelling should be "inertia," not "inirtia."
>:-) --MJ}***


Thanks!  Say, a few yars ago I cudn't even spell amater phisisit, and now I
are one!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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>At 1:54 PM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{The present Martian atmosphere has a maximum pressure of about 8 mbar
>>(about .008 atm), which *ain't hardly* going to yield up rivers of liquid
>>CO2, unless that CO2 is first released by some external event--e.g., meteor
>>bombardment, as I suggested. However, as I also noted, such releases would
>>be quickly reversed, bringing the situation right back where it started.
>>--MJ}***
>>
>
>
>Well, 0.008 bar represents about 0.12 pounds per square inch of CO2 which
>can precipitate out of the atmosphere if the temperature goes below -56.6
>deg. C.  That is a lot of CO2 to snow out of the atmosphere.  The martian
>high winds would make it accumulate in gullys and valleys, and there it
>could glaciate.  If a pressure above 5.2 bar is reached

***{How can pressure rise from 8 to 5200 mbar after all of the CO2 in the
atmosphere--i.e., 90% by weight--has precipitated out? I repeat: this dog
won't hunt, Horace. --MJ}***

, due to the CO2
>snow pack, then it can liquify when it warms up.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 18:19:16 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:17:50 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:15:46 -0800:
[snip]
>An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then
>use a rubber band to tie a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now
>represents the interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the
>two nuts separate.  The inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the
>inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent to the back bump.
[snip]
In this example *both* nuts end up at a greater radius than had they been
directly tied to the string. However on the Earth, the bulge on the close
side actually extends toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.
I think you need to show mathematically that on the near side the
gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force by the same amount as that
by which the centrifugal force exceeds the gravitational force on the far
side (wheeu!).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 18:28:51 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
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At 5:18 PM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>
>***{How can pressure rise from 8 to 5200 mbar after all of the CO2 in the
>atmosphere--i.e., 90% by weight--has precipitated out? I repeat: this dog
>won't hunt, Horace. --MJ}***


The pressure underneath a glacier is colossal.  Atmospheric pressure is
irrelevant to my hypothesis.  Some of the photos showed clear signs of
glaciation I thought.  Apparently they are CO2 glaciers, not H2O glaciers.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Fusion Technology Magazine?
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--- Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> October 13, 2,000
> 
> Vortex,
> 
> Does anyone know if Fusion Technology is still being published and if
> so, who is the new editor? I believe Miley quit the post eff. August.
> Also, does it have a website?

Yes, it is still being published. Fusion Technology is a journal of the
American Nuclear Society. I have not yet heard any news of a new editor to
replace George Miley.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 19:10:35 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 12:17 PM 10/15/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:15:46 -0800:
>[snip]
>>An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then
>>use a rubber band to tie a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now
>>represents the interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the
>>two nuts separate.  The inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the
>>inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent to the back bump.
>[snip]
>In this example *both* nuts end up at a greater radius than had they been
>directly tied to the string. However on the Earth, the bulge on the close
>side actually extends toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.


The rotation speed and string length are not related in this experiment,
thus it is not a true model of the earth-moon system.   The string length
is thus arbitrary. It is sufficient for pedagogical puposes though,at least
for showing that the bulge extends out due to inirtia.  If the bulge had
zero mass, it would not bulge.


>I think you need to show mathematically that on the near side the
>gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force by the same amount as that
>by which the centrifugal force exceeds the gravitational force on the far
>side (wheeu!).


I don't think you need to show that mathematically.  If the elongation is
nearly symmetrical, i.e. nearly elliptical, as you suggested, then that is
proof enough that the earth is being stretched symmetrically.  The orbit
locus necessarily goes through the center of gravity, and that center, by
symmetry, is located directly between the two bulges.

I think a bigger problem with the proposed experiment is that the more
difficult concept of the relation of orbital dynamics to stretching which
is not in the earth-moon line is not demonstrated.  This kind of stretching
is due to the fact that the more distant mass, the far side bump, has a
lower natural orbital velocity, a longer orbital time.  The orbital period
is proportional to R^(3/2).  So, the further away mass must be dragged
along by the closer mass, and the closer mass is slowed by the further
mass, which puts tension on the earth.  For this reason the line of force
on the earth is not located in a true earth-moon line, but more on a
diagonal pointing behind the moon, i.e. at a direction where the moon
appeared prior.  In other words, the bump toward the moon tends to be ahead
of the earth moon line, and the far side bump tends to occur before the
surface there reaches the earth-moon line where it exits the earth there on
the far side.   Below is an ascii view from space above the north pole.



                                    ^
                                    |  v_earth
                               bump
  moon............................earth.............earth-moon-line
                                     bump
   |  v_moon
   v



In this view the earth revolves clockwise about the earth-moon center and
rotates clockwise on its axis.

In one sense you could say that BOTH bumps are caused by inirtia, because
each drags the other around, in opposed directions, putting tension through
the middle.  The lower the mass involved, the less the tension.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 13:31:49 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:18:54 -0500:
[snip]
>***{How can pressure rise from 8 to 5200 mbar after all of the CO2 in the
>atmosphere--i.e., 90% by weight--has precipitated out? I repeat: this dog
>won't hunt, Horace. --MJ}***
>
>, due to the CO2
>>snow pack, then it can liquify when it warms up.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
How about a river of very fine dust?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 19:53:07 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 13:51:30 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:15:27 -0800:
[snip]
>>In this example *both* nuts end up at a greater radius than had they been
>>directly tied to the string. However on the Earth, the bulge on the close
>>side actually extends toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.
>
>
>The rotation speed and string length are not related in this experiment,
>thus it is not a true model of the earth-moon system.   The string length
>is thus arbitrary. It is sufficient for pedagogical puposes though,at least
>for showing that the bulge extends out due to inirtia.  If the bulge had
>zero mass, it would not bulge.

Correct length or not, the effect would be the same for any length string.

>
>
>>I think you need to show mathematically that on the near side the
>>gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force by the same amount as that
>>by which the centrifugal force exceeds the gravitational force on the far
>>side (wheeu!).
>
>
>I don't think you need to show that mathematically.  If the elongation is
>nearly symmetrical, i.e. nearly elliptical, as you suggested, then that is
>proof enough that the earth is being stretched symmetrically.  The orbit
>locus necessarily goes through the center of gravity, and that center, by
>symmetry, is located directly between the two bulges.

Yes, it is proof of symmetrical stretching(?), however not necessarily proof
that the forces involved are those which you propose.

>
>I think a bigger problem with the proposed experiment is that the more
>difficult concept of the relation of orbital dynamics to stretching which
>is not in the earth-moon line is not demonstrated.  This kind of stretching
>is due to the fact that the more distant mass, the far side bump, has a
>lower natural orbital velocity, a longer orbital time.  The orbital period
>is proportional to R^(3/2).  So, the further away mass must be dragged
>along by the closer mass, and the closer mass is slowed by the further
>mass, which puts tension on the earth.  For this reason the line of force
>on the earth is not located in a true earth-moon line, but more on a
>diagonal pointing behind the moon, i.e. at a direction where the moon
>appeared prior.  In other words, the bump toward the moon tends to be ahead
>of the earth moon line, and the far side bump tends to occur before the
>surface there reaches the earth-moon line where it exits the earth there on
>the far side.   Below is an ascii view from space above the north pole.
>
>
>
>                                    ^
>                                    |  v_earth
>                               bump
>  moon............................earth.............earth-moon-line
>                                     bump
>   |  v_moon
>   v
>
>
>In this view the earth revolves clockwise about the earth-moon center and
>rotates clockwise on its axis.

I think the Earth rotates anti-clockwise when viewed from the North Pole.

>
>In one sense you could say that BOTH bumps are caused by inirtia, because
>each drags the other around, in opposed directions, putting tension through
>the middle.  The lower the mass involved, the less the tension.
[snip]
Now I think you are getting closer. I see it as water sloshing around a
bucket that is being swirled off centre (as in panning for gold), though I
wouldn't be able to explain why there are two bulges.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 21:25:58 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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--- Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Let's explore this storage mechanism a little more.  First of all, I
> think it
> is safe to say that the interface between the crust and the supporting
> material is not uniform.  The crust is thicker in some places and the
> supporting material has a wide range of chemical and mechanical
> properties.
> In addition, Mandeville assumes that the skeletons of ancient meteors are
> imbedded in the crust and penetrate into the supporting "liquid".  These
> are
> proposed to act as pinning sites which prevent the crust from moving in
> these
> local regions. 

Yes, seismic data show the crust to be nonuniform. Some of these
nonuniformities that move e.g. along with their own plate and under another
plate are associated with increased earthquake activity, presumably because
of the "pinning". I haven't heard about any "skeletons" of ancient meteors,
but we don't need them to have a "rough" crust.

>Add to this nonuniformity is the nonuniform tug of the
> sun-moon
> gravity system and the nonuniform effect of solar emissions. 

Solar emissions create forces that are very much smaller than the others
you mention and can be neglected.

>As a result
> the
> earth is being stretched, pushed, and uplifted in conflicting directions.
> Furthermore, let's suppose the underlying rock in many areas is a
> semi-solid
> (or semi-liquid if you prefer) while under pressure, but becomes a true
> liquid
> when the pressure is slightly reduced.  I think these are reasonable
> assumptions consistent with our present ignorance.

I think the rapid phase change is questionable. If the system were
isothermal it might be reasonable. However, thermal diffusion in rock is so
slow that all processes must be considered as adiabatic, except on times
comparable to or longer than the thermal diffusion time. Adiabatic
compression raises temperature along with pressure, and it can actually
lead to melting instead of freezing, and vice versa. One needs to know the
equation of state of the material. I don't, but EOS exist for many
materials of geological interest over the pressure range of interest, so
this hypothesis can be tested.

> So, how would energy be stored in such a system? First of all, I can
> imagine
> the pressure in the supporting semi-liquid being reduced in local regions
> as a
> result of earth tides.  If this pressure reduction were sufficient, newly
> formed liquid rock could flow into the region of reduced pressure. Once
> the
> pressure returned to normal in a few hours, the rock would return to its
> semi-liquid state.  As a result, local regions of the crust would be
> slowly
> moved from their equilibrium positions.  This process would also cause
> the
> plates to drift. 

You have described an alternate mechanism by which plates might be driven.
The stored energy is released in earthquakes. The strength of sticking or
pinning between the plates determines how much energy is built up before it
is released in an earthquake. 

At some time in the future, after sufficient energy had
> been
> accumulated and when a particularly strong uplift had occurred, the
> amount of
> liquid formed would allow the crust in a local region to return to a
> lower
> energy position.  

So, you say that some large mass gets elevated by this process, then
becomes unstable and comes sliding down a path lubricated by melting
generated by its own friction. I don't dispute the possiblity of frictional
melting. I know it is discussed among geophysicists; I don't know if they
have evidence for it having occurred or not.

However, where is this big risen mass? and where is the corresponding
hollow? Earth is virtually incompressible on this scale of event, so there
has to be at least as much depressed volume as raised volume. Earth already
has mountain ranges and ocean basins. The main ones have existed for at
least half a billion years, deforming, but not catastrophically shifting.
The crust is deeper under mountain ranges than under lowland. The crust is
thinner under the oceanic plates. Both regions are always close to
hydrostatic (boyancy) equilibrium. I repeat, where is the large mass that
grows and crashes about every 10^4 years?

>This local motion and release of energy would cause
> massive
> remelting of the semi-liquid so that liquid formation would spread to
> more
> distance sites. As a result, an increasing amount of crust could
> essentially
> float and assume a new position which might be well beyond equilibrium in
> the
> opposite direction because of inertia.  Of course, some plates would move
> more
> freely than others causing massive ruptures at plate boundaries. Once
> motion
> stopped, the liquid lubricant would return to the semi-liquid state and
> the
> crust would again be locked in position until sufficient energy had again
> been
> stored to cause general remelting.  Does this process make sense?
> 
> Ed Storms

The motions by such mechansims, to return to some equilibrium, would be 10s
of meters, not km. Crust would have yielded if the elastic strains had
gotten larger. It sounds like pieces of it could be advanced as an
alternate or additional component of continental drift and the mechanism of
deep earthquakes.








=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:47:01 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:15:46 -0800:
>[snip]
>>An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then
>>use a rubber band to tie a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now
>>represents the interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the
>>two nuts separate.  The inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the
>>inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent to the back bump.
>[snip]
>In this example *both* nuts end up at a greater radius than had they been
>directly tied to the string. However on the Earth, the bulge on the close
>side actually extends toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.
>I think you need to show mathematically that on the near side the
>gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force by the same amount as that
>by which the centrifugal force exceeds the gravitational force on the far
>side (wheeu!).

***{Hi Robin. The above wasn't directed at me, but I can't resist. To
begin, in a two-body system, both bodies (M1 and M2) orbit around the
common center of mass. For each body, the centripetal force (toward the
center of mass) is Ft = GM1M2/r^2, and the centrifugal force (away from the
center of mass) is Fa = (M1 or M2)V^2/r. By simple inspection of the
formulas, it is apparent that Ft decreases as the *square* of r, while Fa,
when the orbital speed (V) is constant, merely decreases as r increases.
Since V is constant for all point masses within a given orbiting body, it
follows that it is only for a point-mass located *exactly* at its center of
mass, that Fa = Ft. For internal point-masses located further from the
center of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa > Ft, and for
internal point-masses located closer to the center of mass of the two-body
system, Fa < Ft. Result: the side closet to the common center of mass
bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away. (It's simple!
:-) --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 14 22:03:07 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Oops! No Mars Water?
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>At 5:18 PM 10/14/0, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>
>>***{How can pressure rise from 8 to 5200 mbar after all of the CO2 in the
>>atmosphere--i.e., 90% by weight--has precipitated out? I repeat: this dog
>>won't hunt, Horace. --MJ}***
>
>
>The pressure underneath a glacier is colossal.  Atmospheric pressure is
>irrelevant to my hypothesis.

***{Not so. If the pressure underneath the glacier at the center is
sufficient to liquify CO2 the liquid is going to immediately get squeezed
into the pores in the substratum, whether it consists of dirt, sand, or
rock. Result: the weight of the glacier is going to come to rest on its
edges. Result: the CO2 at the edges is going to start to liquify and,
because it is exposed to the atmosphere, it will instantly sublime--go to
vapor--and return to the atmosphere. Bottom line: a fairly thin layer of
CO2 frost can exist on Mars, but it is physically impossible for CO2
glaciers to exist there. --MJ}***

Some of the photos showed clear signs of
>glaciation I thought.  Apparently they are CO2 glaciers, not H2O glaciers.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 16:03:59 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:47:01 -0500:
[snip]
>mass, that Fa = Ft. For internal point-masses located further from the
>center of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa > Ft, and for
>internal point-masses located closer to the center of mass of the two-body
>system, Fa < Ft. Result: the side closet to the common center of mass
>bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away. (It's simple!
>:-) --MJ}***
[snip]
Since it is so simple, you won't have any trouble showing that both bulges
are approximately the same size then will you :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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 <v04011700b60ee17a9f98 [207.8.127.90]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:38:41 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
Resent-Message-ID: <"-HNL73.0.RP5.O-Lwv" mx1>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:47:01 -0500:
>[snip]
>>mass, that Fa = Ft. For internal point-masses located further from the
>>center of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa > Ft, and for
>>internal point-masses located closer to the center of mass of the two-body
>>system, Fa < Ft. Result: the side closet to the common center of mass
>>bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away. (It's simple!
>>:-) --MJ}***
>[snip]
>Since it is so simple, you won't have any trouble showing that both bulges
>are approximately the same size then will you :).

***{Consider the line connecting the center of mass of the system to the
center of mass of the body, and extending outward to the far side of the
body. Let x represent a distance measured along that line from the center
of mass of the body, and taking the direction toward the center of mass of
the system as positive. If we stipulate that, if x = 0, then Fa = Ft, then
to demonstrate that the bulges are symmetrical, we merely need to
demonstrate that, in all cases, the value of Ft - Fa  at x is equal to the
value of Fa - Ft at -x. To see if that is true, simply plug in the
appropriate symbols.

Working inside M1, for example, we find that at x, Fa = M1V^2/(r-x), and Ft
= GM1M2/(r-x)^2. At -x, on the other hand, Fa = M1V^2/[r-(-x)], and Ft =
GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2.

Result: at x, Ft - Fa =  GM1M2/(r-x)^2 - M1V^2/(r-x), and at -x, Fa - Ft =
M1V^2/[r-(-x)] - GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2 = M1V^2/[r+x)] - GM1M2/[r+x)]^2.

So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Ft - Fa at -x? By inspection of the above
expressions, it appears not. Conclusion: the bulges are *not* symmetrical.
To prove it, simply plug in actual numbers and do a calculation.

I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 00:59:11 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:57:50 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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[snip]

>
>So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Ft - Fa at -x? By inspection of the above

***{Note: the above line should have read as follows.

>So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Fa - Ft at -x? By inspection of the above

Normally I do not bother to correct obvious editing errors, but this one
may not be obvious to some, and so I decided to point it out.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>expressions, it appears not. Conclusion: the bulges are *not* symmetrical.
>To prove it, simply plug in actual numbers and do a calculation.
>
>I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 01:01:03 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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[snip]

>
>So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Ft - Fa at -x? By inspection of the above

***{Note: the above line should have read as follows.

>So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Fa - Ft at -x? By inspection of the above

Normally I do not bother to correct obvious editing errors, but this one
may not be obvious to some, and so I decided to point it out.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>expressions, it appears not. Conclusion: the bulges are *not* symmetrical.
>To prove it, simply plug in actual numbers and do a calculation.
>
>I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 02:32:50 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:37:26 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 1:51 PM 10/15/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:15:27 -0800:
>[snip]
>>>In this example *both* nuts end up at a greater radius than had they been
>>>directly tied to the string. However on the Earth, the bulge on the close
>>>side actually extends toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.
>>
>>
>>The rotation speed and string length are not related in this experiment,
>>thus it is not a true model of the earth-moon system.   The string length
>>is thus arbitrary. It is sufficient for pedagogical puposes though,at least
>>for showing that the bulge extends out due to inirtia.  If the bulge had
>>zero mass, it would not bulge.
>
>Correct length or not, the effect would be the same for any length string.


Yes, so when the string is up to speed we merely have to imagine that the
string was preset to scale to match the radial diatance from the moon to
the surface of the earth.  Like I said this is not a true model, but rather
a pedagogical model.  It was intended only to show how inirtia stretches
the earth.  It took three differing models to higlight three differing
principles involved and that did not cover everything, merely some of the
roles of inirtia.  The request was for a simple answer, and that answer I
think is the earth is principly stretced by the force of gravitation
opposing the force of inirtia.


>
>>
>>
>>>I think you need to show mathematically that on the near side the
>>>gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force by the same amount as that
>>>by which the centrifugal force exceeds the gravitational force on the far
>>>side (wheeu!).
>>
>>
>>I don't think you need to show that mathematically.  If the elongation is
>>nearly symmetrical, i.e. nearly elliptical, as you suggested, then that is
>>proof enough that the earth is being stretched symmetrically.  The orbit
>>locus necessarily goes through the center of gravity, and that center, by
>>symmetry, is located directly between the two bulges.
>
>Yes, it is proof of symmetrical stretching(?), however not necessarily proof
>that the forces involved are those which you propose.


What more proof is needed?  This is common sense stuff.  As I explained,
the orbital speed difference between particles at R and r+R radii is
approximately uniform with repect to r, due to the small r/R ratio, thus
the stretching is approximately uniform.  Similarly, since the ratio r/R is
small, the gravitational field is nearly uniform.  Therefore the stretching
is uniform and the bumps are approximately equal in the earth-moon system.
They are far from uniform in other circustances.



>
>>
>>I think a bigger problem with the proposed experiment is that the more
>>difficult concept of the relation of orbital dynamics to stretching which
>>is not in the earth-moon line is not demonstrated.  This kind of stretching
>>is due to the fact that the more distant mass, the far side bump, has a
>>lower natural orbital velocity, a longer orbital time.  The orbital period
>>is proportional to R^(3/2).  So, the further away mass must be dragged
>>along by the closer mass, and the closer mass is slowed by the further
>>mass, which puts tension on the earth.  For this reason the line of force
>>on the earth is not located in a true earth-moon line, but more on a
>>diagonal pointing behind the moon, i.e. at a direction where the moon
>>appeared prior.  In other words, the bump toward the moon tends to be ahead
>>of the earth moon line, and the far side bump tends to occur before the
>>surface there reaches the earth-moon line where it exits the earth there on
>>the far side.   Below is an ascii view from space above the north pole.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                    ^
>>                                    |  v_earth
>>                               bump
>>  moon............................earth.............earth-moon-line
>>                                     bump
>>   |  v_moon
>>   v
>>
>>
>>In this view the earth revolves clockwise about the earth-moon center and
>>rotates clockwise on its axis.
>
>I think the Earth rotates anti-clockwise when viewed from the North Pole.


When we stand on the earth facing north the east is to our right.  The
earth rotates toward the east, which is why stars rise there and set in the
west.  Therefore the earth rotates clockwise, when viewed from the north,
as in the figure above.  The moon, when viewed at the same time each night,
moves toward the west.  It is therefore also rotating clockwise about the
earth in the above diagram, as the arrows show.

Whoaaa!  I got clockwise and conter-clockwise mixed up!  Sorry!  BTW I have
a backwards clock that I keep around to maintain awareness of perspective,
and maybe it has messed me up!



>
>>
>>In one sense you could say that BOTH bumps are caused by inirtia, because
>>each drags the other around, in opposed directions, putting tension through
>>the middle.  The lower the mass involved, the less the tension.
>[snip]
>Now I think you are getting closer. I see it as water sloshing around a
>bucket that is being swirled off centre (as in panning for gold), though I
>wouldn't be able to explain why there are two bulges.


I don't think that is a good model because it leads you to think the bumps
have something something important to do with the earth being close to the
earth-moon center, which I think is clearly false.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 02:33:00 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 4:03 PM 10/15/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:47:01 -0500:
>[snip]
>>mass, that Fa = Ft. For internal point-masses located further from the
>>center of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa > Ft, and for
>>internal point-masses located closer to the center of mass of the two-body
>>system, Fa < Ft. Result: the side closet to the common center of mass
>>bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away. (It's simple!
>>:-) --MJ}***
>[snip]
>Since it is so simple, you won't have any trouble showing that both bulges
>are approximately the same size then will you :).

I have already explained the reason for that.  The orbital speed difference
between particles at R and r+R radii is approximately uniform with repect
to r, due to the small r/R ratio, thus the stretching is approximately
uniform.  Similarly, since the ratio r/R is small, the gravitational field
is nearly uniform.  Therefore the stretching is uniform and the bumps are
approximately equal in the earth moon system.  However, it should be noted
that the stretching or elongation would also occur if the earth-moon system
were not in mutual orbit, but merely free-falling toward each other.  It is
also notable that the bumps would be FAR from similar in size if we fell
into a black hole, because of the spaghetti effect.  The leading bulge of
the earth might wrap around a giant black hole several times.

The answer that the back bulge is due to the centrifugal force, i.e.
inirtia, of the further away mass is still clearly the correct answer to
Jack Smith's question I think.

There are other small effects that we have not discussed, but I think the
major effects have been delineated.  One small effect is due to the fact
that the particles in the earth to the sides of the earth are attracted
toward the center of the moon, thus the gravitational pull is not exactly
in the same direction for both sides of the earth, thus the two sides are
compressed.  The earth is both pulled axially, and compressed tangentially
to its orbit by the force of gravity.  However, this squeezing effect is
small compared to the effect of differing natural orbital velocities,
because r/R is small.  The squeezing effect would be very large close up to
a small heavy body, and it also opposes the effect of the differing orbital
speeds which stretch the earth in a direction tangential to the earth's
orbit about the earth-moon center.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 03:23:42 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 05:21:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
Resent-Message-ID: <"mVri22.0.Tz3.DMOwv" mx1>
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>>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:47:01 -0500:
>>[snip]
>>>mass, that Fa = Ft. For internal point-masses located further from the
>>>center of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa > Ft, and for
>>>internal point-masses located closer to the center of mass of the two-body
>>>system, Fa < Ft. Result: the side closet to the common center of mass
>>>bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away. (It's simple!
>>>:-) --MJ}***
>>[snip]
>>Since it is so simple, you won't have any trouble showing that both bulges
>>are approximately the same size then will you :).
>
>***{Consider the line connecting the center of mass of the system to the
>center of mass of the body, and extending outward to the far side of the
>body. Let x represent a distance measured along that line from the center
>of mass of the body, and taking the direction toward the center of mass of
>the system as positive. If we stipulate that, if x = 0, then Fa = Ft, then
>to demonstrate that the bulges are symmetrical, we merely need to
>demonstrate that, in all cases, the value of Ft - Fa  at x is equal to the
>value of Fa - Ft at -x. To see if that is true, simply plug in the
>appropriate symbols.
>
>Working inside M1, for example, we find that at x, Fa = M1V^2/(r-x), and Ft
>= GM1M2/(r-x)^2. At -x, on the other hand, Fa = M1V^2/[r-(-x)], and Ft =
>GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2.
>
>Result: at x, Ft - Fa =  GM1M2/(r-x)^2 - M1V^2/(r-x), and at -x, Fa - Ft =
>M1V^2/[r-(-x)] - GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2 = M1V^2/[r+x)] - GM1M2/[r+x)]^2.
>
>So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Ft - Fa at -x? By inspection of the above
>expressions, it appears not. Conclusion: the bulges are *not* symmetrical.
>To prove it, simply plug in actual numbers and do a calculation.
>
>I leave that as an exercise for the reader. :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***

***{After I went to bed (at 4 a.m.) I couldn't stop thinking about this
subject, and it finally occurred to me that yet another error lurks in my
analysis--to wit: there are two radii involved, one being the radius of the
Earth's orbit about the center of mass of the Earth-Moon system, and the
other being the radius of the Moon's orbit about that point. If we call
them r1 and r2 respectively, then at x, Fa = M1V^2/(r1-x), and Ft =
GM1M2/(r1+r2-x)^2. At -x, on the other hand, Fa = M1V^2/[r1-(-x)], and Ft =
GM1M2/[r1+r2-(-x)]^2.

Similar adjustments need to be made to the formulas given in my first post
on this subject. The conclusion of the analysis, however, does not change.

Now maybe I can go to bed and actually sleep! :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Jack Smith wrote:

Horace, I don't quite get how the tidal back bump is there
due to inertia.

Horace Heffner wrote:

...  [Excellent proposed experiments] ...

An alternative experiment is to tie a nut onto the end
of the string.  Then use a rubber band to tie a second
nut to the first.  The rubber band now represents the
interior of the earth.  As the rotation speed increases,
the two nuts separate.  The inertia of the outer nut pulls
it away from the inner nut.  The outer nut is equivalent
to the back bump.

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

On the Earth, the bulge on the close side actually extends
toward the Moon, rather than fleeing it.

Horace Heffner wrote:

It is sufficient for pedagogical puposes though,
at least for showing that the bulge extends out due to
inertia.  If the bulge had zero mass, it would not bulge.

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

I think you need to show mathematically that on the near
side the gravitational force exceeds the centrifugal force
by the same amount as that by which the centrifugal force
exceeds the gravitational force on the far side.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

To begin, in a two-body system, both bodies (M1 and
M2) orbit around the common center of mass. For each body,
the centripetal force (toward the center of mass) is

Ft = GM1M2/r^2,

and the centrifugal force (away from the center of mass) is

Fa = (M1 or M2)V^2/r.

By simple inspection of the formulas, it is apparent
that Ft decreases as the *square* of r, while Fa, when
the orbital speed (V) is constant, merely decreases as
r increases.  Since V is constant for all point masses
within a given orbiting body, it follows that it is only
for a point-mass located *exactly* at its center of mass,
that Fa = Ft.

For internal point-masses located further from the center
of mass of the two-body system, on the other hand, Fa  is
greater than Ft, and for internal point-masses located
closer to the center of mass of the two-body system, Fa
is less than Ft. Result: the side closet to the common
center of mass bulges toward it, and the side farthest
from it bulges away.

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

Since ["the side closet to the common center of mass
bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it bulges away"],
you won't have any trouble showing that both bulges are
approximately the same size then will you :).

Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{Consider the line connecting the center of mass of the
system to the center of mass of the body, and extending
outward to the far side of the body. Let x represent a
distance measured along that line from the center of mass
of the body, and taking the direction toward the center
of mass of the system as positive.

If we stipulate that, if x = 0, then Fa = Ft, then to
demonstrate that the bulges are symmetrical, we merely
need to demonstrate that, in all cases, the value of Ft -
Fa  at x is equal to the value of Fa - Ft at -x.

To see if that is true, simply plug in the appropriate
symbols.

Working inside M1, for example, we find that at x,

Fa = M1V^2/(r-x),

and Ft = GM1M2/(r-x)^2.

At -x, on the other hand,

Fa = M1V^2/[r-(-x)],

and Ft = GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2.

Result: at x, Ft - Fa =  GM1M2/(r-x)^2 - M1V^2/(r-x),

and at -x, Fa - Ft = M1V^2/[r-(-x)] - GM1M2/[r-(-x)]^2

= M1V^2/[r+x)] - GM1M2/[r+x)]^2.

So, does Ft - Fa at x equal Fa - Ft at -x? 

By inspection of the above expressions, it appears
not. Conclusion: the bulges are *not* symmetrical.
To prove it, simply plug in actual numbers and do a
calculation.

***{After I went to bed (at 4 a.m.) I couldn't stop
thinking about this subject, and it finally occurred to
me that yet another error lurks in my analysis--to wit:
there are two radii involved, one being the radius of the
Earth's orbit about the center of mass of the Earth-Moon
system, and the other being the radius of the Moon's orbit
about that point.

If we call them r1 and r2 respectively, then at x,

Fa = M1V^2/(r1-x),

and Ft = GM1M2/(r1+r2-x)^2.

At -x, on the other hand,

Fa = M1V^2/[r1-(-x)],

and Ft = GM1M2/[r1+r2-(-x)]^2.

Similar adjustments need to be made to the formulas given
in my first post on this subject. The conclusion of the
analysis, however, does not change.

Hi All,

What a great discussion!

Horace, your explanation by experiment is outstanding;
and I have already sent it to several science teachers,
including my daughter.  She has proposed another variation
which might make a more spectacular classroom demonstration.
I'm offering it here for comment;

Partly fill a balloon with water.  Attach the balloon to
the end of the string.  Swing the balloon around one's
head, and observe that the end of the balloon bulges out.

The discussion would note that the centripetal and centrifugal
forces are equal (Newton's Third Law), and that the centrifugal
force deforms the balloon (Earth) until the elastic force equals the
centrifugal force.

The demonstration would be even more spectacular if, by
swinging the balloon faster and faster, the centrifugal force
would exceed the force exerted by the molecules of the balloon.
(Parents would probably complain.)

Mitchell Jomes' derivation makes clear that
"the side closet to the common center of mass [of the Earth - Moon
system] bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it
bulges away."

I wonder if there is an experiment (demonstration) that
could make this point.

Thanks again, Jack Smith


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 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/ligonier.html">
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/ligonier.html</A> 


by 

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 10:57:42 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Tidal Bulges
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The mass of the Earth is about 5.8x10^27 grams. The mass of the Moon is
about 7.2x10^25 gm. The mean Earth-Moon distance (center-to-center) is
382645 km. The center of gravity of the Earth-Moon system is such that the
mass of the Earth, M1, times its distance from the common center of mass
(r1) is equal to the mass of the Moon (M2) times its distance from the
common center of mass (r2). Thus we have M1(r1) = M2(r2). Letting the
center-to-center distance be S, we get M1(r1) = M2(S-r1). Plugging in the
numbers, that becomes: 5.8x10^27)(r1) = (7.2x10^25)(382645-r1). Solving: r1
= 4750 - .0124r1, or 1.0124r1 = 4750, or r1 = 4692 km.

Since the radius of the Earth is 6378 km, it follows that the center of
mass of the Earth-Moon system is located along the line of centers
connecting the Earth and the moom, at a distance of 6378-4692 = 1686 km
beneath the surface. Since the centrifugal force is determined by swinging
the Earth in a circle about that point, it follows that point-masses within
the Earth that are between the center of mass of the system and the Moon
actually have a centrifugal force that points *toward* the Moon! In that
region, the centrifugal force and the Moon's gravity pull in the same
direction. For a point mass, Mp, in that region, the total force toward the
Moon is GMpM2/(r1+r2-x) + MpV^2/(r1-x). On the other hand, for a point-mass
within the Earth that is on the far side of the system center and the same
distance, x, from the Earth's center of mass, the total force is
MpV^2/(r1+x) - GMpM2/(r1+r2+x), and is directed away from the Moon.

As we continue to improve the analysis, however, the conclusion remains the
same: the forces on the near and far sides of the Earth are radically
disparate, and obviously give rise to asymmetrical bulges.

--Mitchell Jones

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:40:48 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Michael,

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:25:22 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer
<schaffermj yahoo.com> wrote:

>--- Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>As a result  the
>> earth is being stretched, pushed, and uplifted in conflicting directions.
>> Furthermore, let's suppose the underlying rock in many areas is a
>> semi-solid
>> (or semi-liquid if you prefer) while under pressure, but becomes a true
>> liquid
>> when the pressure is slightly reduced.  I think these are reasonable
>> assumptions consistent with our present ignorance.
>
>I think the rapid phase change is questionable. If the system were
>isothermal it might be reasonable. However, thermal diffusion in rock is so
>slow that all processes must be considered as adiabatic, except on times
>comparable to or longer than the thermal diffusion time.

  <snip>

One of the suggested processes for the very deep quakes that have
started happening around the ring of fire (deeper than 250 km) is a
crystalline phase change.  As the pressure slowly increases the
crystal shape implosively changes to a more compact form -- or the
reverse. 


-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:25:22 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer
> <schaffermj yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >--- Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >>As a result  the
> >> earth is being stretched, pushed, and uplifted in conflicting directions.
> >> Furthermore, let's suppose the underlying rock in many areas is a
> >> semi-solid
> >> (or semi-liquid if you prefer) while under pressure, but becomes a true
> >> liquid
> >> when the pressure is slightly reduced.  I think these are reasonable
> >> assumptions consistent with our present ignorance.
> >
> >I think the rapid phase change is questionable. If the system were
> >isothermal it might be reasonable. However, thermal diffusion in rock is so
> >slow that all processes must be considered as adiabatic, except on times
> >comparable to or longer than the thermal diffusion time.
>
>   <snip>
>
> One of the suggested processes for the very deep quakes that have
> started happening around the ring of fire (deeper than 250 km) is a
> crystalline phase change.  As the pressure slowly increases the
> crystal shape implosively changes to a more compact form -- or the
> reverse.

Now that's very interesting, Dean.  However, the reverse would not be possible.
Nature always tries to negate any condition being imposed.  Therefore, if
pressure increases, nature will try to reduce the pressure through a phase
change, i.e. to a more compact form.  Likewise, if the temperature increases,
nature will produce a phase change which uses energy so as to reduce the
temperature.  This is the nature of nature and is called Le Chatelier's
theorem.

As for isothermal vs adiabatic processes, I would like to add a little more
detail to the model I gave before. As I said earlier, I imagine that all of the
crust sits on a semi-solid which can become a liquid when pressure is reduced,
such as at cracks. When liquid forms, the total volume of material increases,
hence cause the pressure to become fixed as the amount of liquid formed
compensates for the displacement.   Upon reduction of pressure, the liquid
would freeze and the volume would decrease, thereby allowing the land-mass to
return partly to its original position. This IS an adiabatic process.  In the
region under the oceans, where pressure is less, liquid does not form because
the temperature is also less.   Consequently, the crust can not move easily
unless liquid can form.

I propose that the gravitational pull of the moon-sun system causes pressure to
be reduced in certain regions especially at heavy land-masses near the
equator.  This reduction causes an immediate phase change from a semi-solid to
a liquid.  Once the liquid forms, the crust in that region can move toward the
moon-sun system by an amount greater than the surrounding material and more
than would have occurred had the liquid not formed. When the pressure is again
reduced, the liquid immediately turns into semi-solid so that the crust can not
return to its original position.  Gradually, regions rise up while other
regions sink as liquid moves.  The whole crust can move when sufficient energy
is stored in the rising heavy land-mass to convert the surrounding semi-solid
to liquid during one of the expansion cycles.  Once motion starts, friction
raises the temperature sufficiently to melt more semi-solid and the plates
start to move as a unit.  This model, as Michael Schaffer observed, rests on
the physical nature of the pressure-temperature relationship of rock at the
underside of the crust.  Unfortunately, obtaining such material and applying
the necessary pressure and temperature to test the model would be a very
difficult task.  So, I can only offer this as a conceivable model to counter
the statements made by Jones that no conceivable process exists.  As is the
case with all models, I'm discovering that other people have had the same idea.

Regards,
Ed

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Edmund Storms wrote:

According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
these records.

Hi Ed,

Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?

Jack Smith

GISP2 Volcanic markers

REFERENCES:

ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.dat

Zielinski, G.A., and G.R. Mershon. 1997. Paleoenvironmental
implications of the insoluble microparticle record
in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core during the rapidly
changing climate of the Pleistocene-Holocene transition.
Geological Society of America Bulletin 109:547-559.

Zielinski, G.A., R.J. Fiacco, P.A. Mayewski, L.D. Meeker,
S.I. Whitlow, M.S. Twickler, M.S. Germani, K. Endo, and
M. Yasui. 1994. Climatic impact of the A.D. 1783 Asama
(Japan) eruption was minimal: Evidence from the GISP2 ice
core. Geophysical Research Letters 21:2365-2368.

Hempel, L., and F. Thyssen. 1992. Deep radio echo
soundings in the vicinity of GRIP and GISP2 drill sites,
Greenland. Polarforschung 62:11-16.

Palais, J.M., M.S. Germani, and
G.A. Zielinski. 1992. Interhemispheric transport of
volcanic ash from a 1259 A.D. volcanic eruption to the
Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. Geophysical Research
Letters 19:801-804

Palais, J.M., K.C. Taylor, P.A. Mayewski, and
P.M. Grootes. 1991. Volcanic ash from the 1362
A.D. Oraefajokull eruption (Iceland) in the Greenland ice
sheet. Geophysical Research Letters 18:1241-1244.

"DATA DESCRIPTION:

This file contains the volcanic sulfate record in the
GISP2 core on the Meese/Sowers timescale.  Each sample
is approximately bi-annual for the last ~12,000 years
with a consistent increase in the time covered by each
sample to around 50 years/sample at 110,000 years ago.

The volcanic sulfate record is derived by applying an
empirical orthogonal function (EOF) analysis on the entire
glaciochemical time series (Mayewski et al., 1997a).  EOF 5
was found to explain 12% of the variance in the sulfate
record, but it did not significantly explain the variance
in any other chemical species.

The excellent correlation in the EOF time
series and the volcanic sulfate record
for the last 9000 years, based on sulfate residuals over
a robust spline (Zielinski et al.,1994a) indicates that
EOF5 is an indicator of volcanic sulfate deposition over
the last 110,000 years.

AGE refers to the age in yr BP,
as described above Total sulfate is the
total measured sulfate concentration in ppb.
Volcanic sulfate is the calculated total sulfate,
based on emprical orthogonal function analysis (EOF
5). parameter 3:  Volcanic sulfate based on empirical
orthogonal function analysis (i.e., EOF-5)"

DATA:	

age (yr)	total sulfate (ppb)	volcanic sulfate

10999.74          117.26          59
11001.90          98.36          47
11006.94          163.56          93
11009.46          130.38          64
11011.98          70.20          5
11014.41          54.88          19
11016.84          86.08          14
11019.28          115.85          77
11021.24          63.95          12
11023.20          104.97          50
11025.16          55.51          0
11027.05          57.26          10
11028.94          107.30          40
11030.90          189.47          128
11032.86          60.88          16
11035.24          211.02          163
11037.48          80.17          30
11039.48          59.16          22
11041.64          120.43          44
11043.88          51.83          0
11046.12          54.25          3
11048.28          45.42          0
11050.26          71.78          12
11052.22          53.63          0
11054.18          65.07          25
11056.07          60.71          16
11057.96          52.52          0
11059.92          58.85          2
11061.95          60.11          11
11064.14          96.63          51
11066.61          178.73          120
11069.27          66.90          16
11071.84          73.48          16
11074.40          81.32          32
11077.06          72.76          26
11079.63          70.35          2
11082.15          69.62          27
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 15:29:18 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tidal Bulges
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:25:58 +1100
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:53:47 -0500:
[snip]
>As we continue to improve the analysis, however, the conclusion remains the
>same: the forces on the near and far sides of the Earth are radically
>disparate, and obviously give rise to asymmetrical bulges.
>
>--Mitchell Jones
Now how does this compare with actual tidal information? I.e. do the
relative heights of successive high tides indeed alternate? (This is
probably best determined when the Sun and Moon are either in opposition or
in conjunction).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 15:46:11 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:44:27 +1100
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Hi,

Has anyone ever *measured* the mass of a negative hydrogen ion in a MS or
equivalent?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 18:21:41 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:17:24 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
>sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
>when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
>these records.
>
>Hi Ed,
>
>Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
>covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
>Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?

***{As I pointed out the other day, the type of pole shift Ed seems to be
talking about--i.e., a large movement of the Earth's crust relative to its
spin axis--would be accompanied by a large movement in the magnetic pole.
However, the link that I posted the other daycharts such movements back
hundreds of millions of years, and gives no indication of any very large
movements of the sort that Ed seems to be talking about, and certainly none
in the last 12,000 years. (See the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the
page at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html.) The
largest pole shift permitted by this chart is the one shown at the far
left, where the pole moved roughly 15 degrees SW and then undid most of
that movement by moving about 15 degrees NNE. Moreover, there is no reason
to suppose that even this movement was sudden, since the separation between
these plots probably simply means that all of the rock formed during the
intervening time intervals was at some point subducted down to a
temperature above the Curie point, and its magnetic imprinting was lost.
(Or else that it still exists, but we haven't drilled through it yet.) In
any event, even if some to these plot separations *were* accomplished via
suddent shifts, none of them seems large enough to fit Ed's descriptions.
Thus, as far as I can see at present, Mandeville's hypothesis conflicts
with the known facts. (More comments below.) --MJ}***

>
>Jack Smith
>
>GISP2 Volcanic markers
>
>REFERENCES:
>
>ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.dat
>
>Zielinski, G.A., and G.R. Mershon. 1997. Paleoenvironmental
>implications of the insoluble microparticle record
>in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core during the rapidly
>changing climate of the Pleistocene-Holocene transition.
>Geological Society of America Bulletin 109:547-559.
>
>Zielinski, G.A., R.J. Fiacco, P.A. Mayewski, L.D. Meeker,
>S.I. Whitlow, M.S. Twickler, M.S. Germani, K. Endo, and
>M. Yasui. 1994. Climatic impact of the A.D. 1783 Asama
>(Japan) eruption was minimal: Evidence from the GISP2 ice
>core. Geophysical Research Letters 21:2365-2368.
>
>Hempel, L., and F. Thyssen. 1992. Deep radio echo
>soundings in the vicinity of GRIP and GISP2 drill sites,
>Greenland. Polarforschung 62:11-16.
>
>Palais, J.M., M.S. Germani, and
>G.A. Zielinski. 1992. Interhemispheric transport of
>volcanic ash from a 1259 A.D. volcanic eruption to the
>Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. Geophysical Research
>Letters 19:801-804
>
>Palais, J.M., K.C. Taylor, P.A. Mayewski, and
>P.M. Grootes. 1991. Volcanic ash from the 1362
>A.D. Oraefajokull eruption (Iceland) in the Greenland ice
>sheet. Geophysical Research Letters 18:1241-1244.
>
>"DATA DESCRIPTION:
>
>This file contains the volcanic sulfate record in the
>GISP2 core on the Meese/Sowers timescale.  Each sample
>is approximately bi-annual for the last ~12,000 years
>with a consistent increase in the time covered by each
>sample to around 50 years/sample at 110,000 years ago.
>
>The volcanic sulfate record is derived by applying an
>empirical orthogonal function (EOF) analysis on the entire
>glaciochemical time series (Mayewski et al., 1997a).  EOF 5
>was found to explain 12% of the variance in the sulfate
>record, but it did not significantly explain the variance
>in any other chemical species.
>
>The excellent correlation in the EOF time
>series and the volcanic sulfate record
>for the last 9000 years, based on sulfate residuals over
>a robust spline (Zielinski et al.,1994a) indicates that
>EOF5 is an indicator of volcanic sulfate deposition over
>the last 110,000 years.
>
>AGE refers to the age in yr BP,
>as described above Total sulfate is the
>total measured sulfate concentration in ppb.
>Volcanic sulfate is the calculated total sulfate,
>based on emprical orthogonal function analysis (EOF
>5). parameter 3:  Volcanic sulfate based on empirical
>orthogonal function analysis (i.e., EOF-5)"
>
>DATA:
>
>age (yr)	total sulfate (ppb)	volcanic sulfate
>
>10999.74          117.26          59
>11001.90          98.36          47
>11006.94          163.56          93
>11009.46          130.38          64
>11011.98          70.20          5
>11014.41          54.88          19
>11016.84          86.08          14
>11019.28          115.85          77
>11021.24          63.95          12
>11023.20          104.97          50
>11025.16          55.51          0
>11027.05          57.26          10
>11028.94          107.30          40
>11030.90          189.47          128
>11032.86          60.88          16
>11035.24          211.02          163
>11037.48          80.17          30
>11039.48          59.16          22
>11041.64          120.43          44
>11043.88          51.83          0
>11046.12          54.25          3
>11048.28          45.42          0
>11050.26          71.78          12
>11052.22          53.63          0
>11054.18          65.07          25
>11056.07          60.71          16
>11057.96          52.52          0
>11059.92          58.85          2
>11061.95          60.11          11
>11064.14          96.63          51
>11066.61          178.73          120
>11069.27          66.90          16
>11071.84          73.48          16
>11074.40          81.32          32
>11077.06          72.76          26
>11079.63          70.35          2
>11082.15          69.62          27
>11084.25          106.18          55
>11086.28          83.81          25
>11088.30          72.15          13
>11090.40          59.78          0
>11092.43          49.80          6
>11094.45          55.00          8
>11096.48          54.98          22
>11098.40          43.29          0
>11100.36          64.35          2
>11102.25          45.23          0
>11104.14          78.43          14
>11106.03          39.12          0
>11107.92          51.24          0
>11109.95          60.60          19
>11111.84          57.84          0
>11113.66          29.55          0
>11115.55          38.81          0
>11117.44          41.43          0
>11119.33          41.23          0
>11121.22          57.21          6
>11123.11          183.75          124
>11125.00          80.09          13
>11127.30          63.45          3
>11129.59          47.29          0
>11131.89          61.01          11
>11134.18          51.09          3
>11136.48          53.57          2
>11138.77          78.24          25
>11140.98          127.47          66
>11143.28          78.99          29
>11145.66          107.76          54
>11147.95          112.08          55
>11150.25          102.62          47
>11152.46          123.66          76
>11154.75          127.98          66
>11157.05          133.70          59
>11159.32          68.89          10
>11161.48          61.01          0
>11163.56          39.23          0
>11165.72          54.82          13
>11167.88          74.93          10
>11170.04          74.68          0
>11172.20          84.87          30
>11174.28          81.48          23
>11176.44          81.39          33
>11178.60          86.56          39
>11180.68          76.71          10
>11182.84          87.93          34
>11185.00          113.94          29
>11187.08          100.16          33
>11189.24          110.43          35
>11191.35          164.17          118
>11193.17          119.71          98
>11195.06          106.62          52
>11196.95          147.40          70
>11198.77          86.10          0
>11200.59          93.01          22
>11202.48          70.90          1
>11204.37          75.53          25
>11206.28          97.85          41
>11208.23          87.43          34
>11212.28          91.40          47
>11214.23          54.89          3
>11216.18          49.45          3
>11218.20          45.99          3
>11220.24          71.86          16
>11222.32          62.15          8
>11224.40          68.59          17
>11226.48          129.16          60
>11228.64          66.44          12
>11230.80          82.30          16
>11232.88          221.17          145
>11234.96          876.03          801

***{The above two plots span a mere 2 years, and hence cannot plausibly be
attributed to a massive ripping of the crust via a huge pole
shift--especially since they are not really that much out of line with
other plots in this data set. I would guess that some volcano near
Greenland--e.g., in Iceland--was erupting at this time. The way to verify
that would be to show similar plots for the last few hundred years, during
which we know Iceland volcanos erupted and no pole shift occurred. --MJ}***

>11236.98          44.35          0
>11238.93          44.51          0
>11240.95          51.16          1
>11242.98          57.37          0
>11244.93          75.69          20
>11246.88          80.32          26
>11248.83          87.59          38
>11250.78          47.64          0
>11253.07          40.56          0
>11255.41          76.85          15
>11257.75          84.62          25
>11260.18          45.22          0
>11262.61          229.03          175

***{Another pole shift? Obviously not. So this plot is due to an ordinary
volcanic eruption taking place at some unknown, but probably nearby,
location. Since it is (229.03/876.03)x100 = 26% of the plot noted
previously, the earlier plot is obviously not due to a pole shift either.
--MJ}***

>11264.95          116.05          56
>11267.29          46.71          0
>11269.60          40.18          0
>11271.81          35.68          0
>11274.02          77.81          13
>11276.23          55.45          0
>11278.44          79.61          32
>11280.65          39.30          0
>11282.86          36.09          0
>11284.98          53.37          0
>11287.05          40.72          0
>11289.08          50.78          9
>11291.03          60.90          16
>11292.98          52.71          15
>11294.93          60.66          8
>11296.88          63.05          3
>11298.83          56.92          0
>11300.78          52.55          0
>11302.73          78.52          25
>11304.68          90.98          30
>11306.63          74.06          24
>11308.58          106.65          25
>11310.53          94.04          35
>11312.48          115.86          46
>11314.35          84.46          0
>11316.26          111.68          43
>11318.47          77.88          13
>11320.68          86.49          17
>11322.89          124.53          49
>11325.10          67.77          3
>11327.31          61.47          15
>11329.52          108.49          32
>11331.81          94.93          30
>11334.08          102.02          44
>11336.24          106.36          20
>11338.49          105.52          27
>11340.83          59.96          0
>11343.17          65.70          0
>11345.51          94.01          26
>11347.76          70.12          0
>11349.92          118.03          21
>11352.43          83.50          15
>11354.90          96.08          0
>11357.37          79.99          0
>11359.74          85.49          13
>11362.12          64.73          0
>11364.59          81.76          0
>11367.06          59.25          0
>11369.43          46.85          5
>11371.81          59.51          0
>11374.28          58.04          0
>11376.75          65.13          0
>11379.12          58.14          3
>11381.50          97.24          21
>11383.97          49.90          0
>11386.44          87.38          12
>11388.81          65.52          11
>11391.19          66.07          0
>11393.66          114.30          28
>11396.03          109.30          21
>11398.41          89.55          5
>11400.88          60.45          7
>11403.25          190.90          109
>11405.63          151.10          78
>11408.08          47.78          0
>11410.08          96.71          18
>11412.08          83.09          22
>11414.16          57.15          0
>11416.16          61.51          0
>11418.16          59.04          0
>11420.24          67.12          0
>11422.24          68.96          10
>11424.26          54.69          0
>11426.38          87.64          22
>11428.51          60.39          8
>11430.72          63.10          0
>11432.84          126.70          69
>11434.97          61.80          13
>11437.09          65.14          3
>11439.22          115.40          23
>11441.34          49.30          5
>11443.47          86.39          0
>11445.68          78.15          11
>11447.80          64.27          0
>11449.93          88.69          13
>11452.05          93.21          19
>11454.18          52.19          0
>11456.30          52.57          0
>11458.40          45.70          0
>11460.40          48.59          0
>11462.40          59.82          0
>11464.40          53.08          0
>11466.40          35.21          0
>11468.40          45.55          0
>11470.40          41.47          6
>11472.40          46.90          0
>11474.38          46.94          0
>11476.25          71.81          12
>11478.05          24.21          0
>11479.93          37.33          0
>11481.80          45.94          0
>11483.68          52.27          0
>11485.55          39.01          0
>11487.43          38.00          0
>11489.30          27.41          0
>11491.10          41.15          0
>11492.98          45.22          0
>11494.85          51.24          0
>11496.73          33.31          0
>11498.60          56.36          13
>11500.40          261.50          176
>11502.28          64.20          0
>11504.16          39.66          0
>11506.08          43.07          0
>11508.16          45.91          0
>11510.16          49.18          4
>11512.00          55.10          0
>11514.00          38.48          0
>11516.00          40.70          0
>11517.92          34.41          10
>11519.92          40.84          0
>11522.16          35.15          0
>11524.23          42.88          0
>11526.75          59.47          4
>11528.82          36.85          0
>11530.98          49.46          0
>11533.14          29.72          0
>11535.39          45.90          0
>11537.64          40.39          0
>11539.80          36.49          0
>11541.96          36.41          0
>11544.21          33.55          0
>11546.46          58.30          2
>11548.62          43.21          0
>11550.78          35.63          0
>11553.03          33.26          0
>11555.10          96.37          25
>11557.19          51.13          2
>11559.40          44.79          0
>11561.44          35.03          0
>11563.57          31.96          0
>11565.69          48.73          0
>11567.73          82.07          15
>11569.77          134.10          79
>11571.90          31.98          0
>11573.94          32.71          0
>11575.98          35.97          0
>11578.10          23.67          0
>11580.14          34.67          0
>11582.18          42.16          0
>11584.22          44.65          0
>11586.26          80.77          12
>11588.30          42.68          0
>11590.38          38.21          0
>11592.76          36.57          0
>11595.13          35.38          0
>11597.41          42.21          0
>11599.69          47.11          0
>11601.97          36.37          0
>11604.25          47.00          0
>11606.53          32.11          0
>11608.81          57.99          0
>11611.09          84.91          32
>11613.37          49.68          0
>11615.65          68.13          0
>11617.93          42.46          0
>11620.21          53.93          0
>11622.49          43.55          0
>11624.77          47.02          0
>11626.96          71.54          0
>11629.20          54.53          0
>11631.60          74.28          0
>11634.00          67.88          0
>11636.40          57.46          0
>11638.80          49.99          0
>11641.20          69.70          0
>11643.60          69.25          0
>11646.00          48.40          0
>11648.40          81.65          0
>11650.80          87.31          0
>11653.65          92.61          0
>11656.95          180.70          63
>11660.25          402.80          195

***{Another pole shift? Again, obviously not. And this plot is
(402.8/876.03)x100 = 45.9% of the "pole shift" plot--which means: it ain't
no steenking pole shift plot! :-) --MJ}***

>11663.55          92.08          0
>11666.85          97.96          0
>11670.15          156.80          0
>11673.45          111.90          0
>11676.75          157.30          0
>11680.05          136.20          0
>11683.35          102.10          0
>11686.60          83.32          0
>11689.80          128.90          0
>11693.00          119.30          0
>11696.20          111.80          0
>11699.40          89.49          0
>11702.60          175.60          0
>11705.80          100.30          0
>11709.00          169.00          0
>11712.20          95.43          0
>11715.40          104.50          0
>11718.75          85.40          0
>11722.25          76.27          0
>11725.75          56.78          0
>11729.25          97.00          0
>11732.75          95.31          0
>11736.25          101.10          0
>11739.75          115.10          0
>11743.25          121.90          0
>11746.75          105.20          0
>11750.25          108.20          0
>11753.98          132.10          0
>11757.12          93.39          0
>11760.25          185.50          5
>11763.55          82.56          0
>11766.85          187.50          16
>11770.15          194.20          0
>11773.45          85.53          0
>11776.75          98.66          0
>11780.05          132.40          0
>11783.68          174.80          14
>11787.38          126.40          0
>11790.95          132.00          30
>11794.52          82.09          0
>11797.92          103.80          0
>11801.32          145.10          0
>11804.72          84.50          0
>11807.61          81.21          0
>11810.50          86.84          0
>11813.90          161.00          0
>11817.47          233.60          0
>11820.76          152.57          0
>11823.80          113.57          0
>11827.00          123.39          0
>11830.20          212.77          0
>11833.40          156.91          1
>11836.60          180.53          1
>11839.80          142.19          0
>11843.00          152.11          0
>11846.20          152.11          0
>11849.40          113.83          0
>11852.65          184.23          27
>11855.95          120.74          0
>11859.25          119.50          0
>11862.55          125.41          0
>11865.85          170.04          0
>11869.15          121.68          0
>11872.45          133.34          0
>11875.75          117.31          0
>11879.05          106.70          0
>11882.52          104.67          0
>11886.04          87.91          0
>11889.55          85.87          0
>11893.25          155.51          0
>11896.95          102.33          0
>11900.65          99.82          0
>11904.35          86.65          0
>11908.05          179.61          0
>11911.75          169.73          0
>11915.45          120.43          0
>11919.15          96.38          0
>11922.70          101.39          0
>11926.10          81.31          0
>11929.50          139.55          0
>11932.90          109.20          0
>11936.30          98.10          0
>11939.70          224.19          1
>11943.10          218.21          86
>11946.50          144.67          0
>11949.90          193.64          0
>11953.30          238.19          67
>11956.80          211.49          35
>11960.40          175.13          10
>11964.00          187.32          0
>11967.60          125.48          8
>11971.20          155.63          0
>11974.80          164.92          9
>11978.40          181.77          38
>11982.00          256.71          104
>11985.60          130.40          0
>11989.20          143.84          0
>11992.70          124.55          0
>11996.10          90.27          0
>11999.50          125.48          0
>12002.90          122.52          0
>12006.30          70.71          0
>12009.70          113.15          0
>12013.10          191.48          0
>12016.50          120.49          0
>12019.90          106.74          0
>12023.30          142.45          0
>12027.05          135.45          0
>12031.15          94.98          0
>12035.25          149.90          0
>12039.35          119.71          0
>12043.45          138.40          0
>12047.55          130.31          0
>12051.65          127.35          0
>12055.75          129.69          0
>12059.85          166.44          2
>12063.95          138.09          26
>12067.80          227.31          107
>12071.40          91.05          0
>12075.00          86.49          0
>12078.60          122.83          0
>12082.20          126.11          0
>12085.80          125.64          0
>12089.40          177.29          0
>12093.00          143.22          0
>12096.60          149.28          0
>12100.20          98.91          0
>12107.27          134.06          0
>12110.50          175.53          0
>12113.90          131.52          0
>12117.30          133.59          0
>12120.70          156.95          0
>12124.10          137.24          0
>12127.50          179.17          30
>12130.90          178.22          11
>12134.30          260.12          74
>12137.95          123.40          0
>12141.85          148.21          0
>12145.75          739.36          432
>12149.65          127.54          0
>12153.55          166.16          0
>12157.45          184.88          9
>12161.35          102.52          0
>12165.25          122.28          0
>12169.15          171.72          0
>12173.05          188.69          19
>12176.65          131.36          9
>12179.95          145.19          1
>12183.25          168.07          27
>12186.55          193.60          31
>12189.85          200.57          0
>12193.15          150.28          0
>12196.45          166.64          26
>12199.75          232.71          0
>12203.05          209.89          39
>12206.35          110.97          0
>12209.70          248.36          9
>12213.10          128.02          0
>12216.50          374.38          262
>12219.90          123.40          0
>12223.30          247.73          64
>12226.70          129.13          0
>12230.10          173.78          0
>12233.50          117.35          0
>12236.90          170.92          33
>12240.30          128.18          13
>12244.10          187.12          0
>12248.30          144.21          0
>12252.50          157.27          0
>12256.49          103.21          0
>12260.69          152.55          0
>12265.10          147.04          0
>12269.30          108.11          0
>12273.50          149.40          0
>12277.70          134.82          8
>12281.90          145.47          0
>12285.95          88.51          0
>12289.85          131.14          0
>12293.75          206.09          0
>12297.65          177.70          0
>12301.55          155.38          2
>12305.45          150.82          0
>12309.35          120.26          0
>12313.25          129.56          0
>12317.15          152.39          0
>12321.05          99.89          0
>12325.00          141.06          0
>12329.00          263.23          95
>12333.00          259.79          2
>12337.00          200.29          0
>12341.00          131.77          0
>12345.00          192.45          0
>12349.00          412.29          175

***{Another biggie. --MJ}***

>12353.00          322.10          64
>12357.00          214.24          4
>12361.00          156.32          0
>12364.85          91.36          0
>12368.55          105.58          0
>12372.25          186.80          0
>12375.95          150.82          9
>12379.65          326.94          159
>12383.35          211.58          17
>12387.05          149.88          0
>12390.75          76.79          0
>12394.45          230.38          0
>12398.15          132.05          0
>12401.85          117.10          0
>12405.55          152.42          7
>12409.25          117.42          0
>12412.95          101.67          0
>12416.65          171.21          0
>12420.35          201.77          19
>12424.05          240.17          82
>12427.75          160.81          0
>12431.45          171.29          0
>12435.15          116.79          0
>12438.80          115.80          0
>12442.40          176.00          0
>12446.00          82.72          0
>12449.60          152.00          25
>12453.20          206.80          0
>12456.80          177.70          4
>12460.40          99.48          0
>12464.00          135.40          0
>12467.60          148.90          0
>12471.20          131.90          0
>12475.34          156.00          0
>12479.05          220.50          14
>12482.75          127.20          0
>12486.65          148.50          0
>12490.55          127.10          0
>12494.45          150.90          0
>12498.35          144.00          0
>12502.25          149.50          0
>12506.15          107.80          0
>12510.05          123.20          0
>12514.09          182.80          0
>12517.89          127.50          0
>12521.50          128.80          0
>12525.30          221.70          33
>12529.10          92.19          0
>12532.90          171.50          0
>12536.70          159.80          0
>12540.50          280.20          59
>12544.30          184.70          54
>12548.10          236.80          0
>12552.00          113.10          0
>12556.00          216.40          58
>12560.00          345.30          131
>12564.00          275.30          84
>12568.00          268.30          42
>12572.00          192.40          0
>12576.00          142.80          0
>12580.00          243.70          0
>12584.00          115.10          0
>12588.00          125.00          9
>12591.90          153.00          20
>12595.70          183.70          0
>12599.50          172.00          27
>12603.30          439.04          126
>12607.10          985.90          740

***{The killer. This one is a bit bigger than the earlier "pole shift"
candidate. Since they can't both be due to pole shifts, it follows that
neither is. --MJ}***

>12610.90          159.30          0
>12614.70          247.10          0
>12618.50          131.70          0
>12622.30          216.20          111
>12626.10          318.40          113
>12629.95          259.40          81
>12633.85          145.90          0
>12637.75          124.80          0
>12641.65          116.90          0
>12645.55          158.80          1
>12649.45          228.60          18
>12653.35          119.90          0
>12657.25          257.30          35
>12661.15          113.10          0
>12665.05          153.70          4
>12669.00          335.70          80
>12673.00          163.40          11
>12677.00          180.70          21
>12681.00          99.99          16
>12685.00          332.40          17
>12689.00          156.30          0
>12693.00          155.50          1
>12697.00          159.20          0
>12701.00          197.60          0
>12705.00          159.20          3
>12708.70          139.50          0
>12712.10          180.00          0
>12715.50          120.80          0
>12718.90          119.10          0
>12722.30          197.20          25
>12725.70          128.30          0
>12729.10          174.80          0
>12732.50          330.50          149
>12735.90          178.70          0
>12739.30          124.80          0
>12742.90          122.40          0
>12746.70          109.00          0
>12750.50          93.28          0
>12754.30          202.10          35
>12758.10          107.00          0
>12761.90          230.10          0
>12765.70          393.80          215

***{Another biggie. --MJ}***

>12769.50          126.10          0
>12773.30          173.50          0
>12777.10          120.10          37
>12780.85          133.50          0
>12784.55          69.34          0
>12788.25          121.60          0
>12791.95          132.20          0
>12795.65          111.60          0
>12799.35          122.70          0
>12803.05          98.69          0
>12806.75          131.60          0
>12810.45          151.20          1
>12814.15          100.60          12
>12817.65          87.43          0
>12820.95          121.40          22
>12824.25          92.36          0
>12827.55          97.30          0
>12830.85          73.26          0
>12834.15          50.13          0
>12837.45          85.29          0
>12840.75          117.20          10
>12844.05          108.20          0
>12847.35          85.95          7
>12850.65          63.52          0
>12853.95          93.35          0
>12857.25          143.60          18
>12860.55          121.00          8
>12863.85          55.76          0
>12867.15          75.73          0
>12870.45          67.98          0
>12873.75          109.50          0
>12877.05          57.83          0
>12880.35          60.88          16
>12883.40          62.50          0
>12886.20          76.60          0
>12889.00          90.70          6
>12891.80          90.10          0
>12894.60          148.00          77
>12897.40          89.20          0
>12900.20          138.00          15
>12903.00          60.70          0
>12905.80          59.90          0
>12908.60          70.10          3
>12912.50          64.50          12
>12917.50          35.10          0
>12922.50          40.20          0
>12927.50          55.30          0
>12932.50          462.00          369

***{Another biggie. --MJ}***

>12937.00          44.00          0
>12941.00          70.90          0
>12945.00          53.40          0
>12949.00          41.10          0
>12953.00          41.90          0
>12957.10          45.30          0
>12961.30          47.60          0
>12965.50          48.20          0
>12969.60          46.70          0
>12973.80          50.50          0
>12978.10          71.50          0
>12982.30          44.50          0
>12986.50          44.30          0
>12990.70          117.00          41
>12994.90          49.70          0
>12999.00          46.90          0
>13003.00          141.00          69

***{Thus we now have *two* sets of data that appear to conflict with
Mandeville's hypothesis, at least in the form in which it was presented to
us by Ed Storms. (Good work, Jack!) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 19:25:47 2000
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References: <v04011700b60f8cbe758d [207.8.127.158]>
 <v04011700b60f8cbe758d [207.8.127.158]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:21:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Tidal Bulges
Resent-Message-ID: <"_ySee.0.vi3.qPcwv" mx2>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:53:47 -0500:
>[snip]
>>As we continue to improve the analysis, however, the conclusion remains the
>>same: the forces on the near and far sides of the Earth are radically
>>disparate, and obviously give rise to asymmetrical bulges.
>>
>>--Mitchell Jones
>Now how does this compare with actual tidal information? I.e. do the
>relative heights of successive high tides indeed alternate? (This is
>probably best determined when the Sun and Moon are either in opposition or
>in conjunction).

***{Tons of tidal data for various coastal stations are available at
http://co-ops.nos.noaa.gov/data_retrieve.shtml?input_code=100111111vwl,
most being in hourly form. Just plug in the arguments to specify the
station you want, the timespan, and the type of data, and you are in
business!

I spent about half an hour looking at
http://co-ops.nos.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/co-ops_qry.cgi, and found that there
seemed to be a max high tide and a min high tide separated by roughly 12
hours. Likewise there seemed to be a min low tide and a max low tide
separated by about 12 hours. This seems to fit the hypothesis that the near
side and far side bulges are different, but eyeballing a plot sheet is
subjective, iffy stuff. You would need to do a computerized statistical
analysis of these data to prove such a hypothesis one way or the other.

Either that, or find a reference to such an analysis done by someone else.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 21:02:41 2000
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 <v04011700b60f8cbe758d [207.8.127.158]>
 <v04011700b60f8cbe758d [207.8.127.158]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:58:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Tidal Bulges
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>>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:53:47 -0500:
>>[snip]
>>>As we continue to improve the analysis, however, the conclusion remains the
>>>same: the forces on the near and far sides of the Earth are radically
>>>disparate, and obviously give rise to asymmetrical bulges.
>>>
>>>--Mitchell Jones
>>Now how does this compare with actual tidal information? I.e. do the
>>relative heights of successive high tides indeed alternate? (This is
>>probably best determined when the Sun and Moon are either in opposition or
>>in conjunction).
>
>***{Tons of tidal data for various coastal stations are available at
>http://co-ops.nos.noaa.gov/data_retrieve.shtml?input_code=100111111vwl,
>most being in hourly form. Just plug in the arguments to specify the
>station you want, the timespan, and the type of data, and you are in
>business!
>
>I spent about half an hour looking at
>http://co-ops.nos.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/co-ops_qry.cgi, and found that there
>seemed to be a max high tide and a min high tide separated by roughly 12
>hours. Likewise there seemed to be a min low tide and a max low tide
>separated by about 12 hours. This seems to fit the hypothesis that the near
>side and far side bulges are different

***{To clarify a bit: the presence of a max and min high tide supports the
hypothesis, while the presence of a max and min low tide does not
contradict it, due to the presence of the Sun in the picture. Again,
though, this is an issue that needs to be settled by means of a
computerized statistical analysis, not by eyeballing a data sheet. --MJ}***

, but eyeballing a plot sheet is
>subjective, iffy stuff. You would need to do a computerized statistical
>analysis of these data to prove such a hypothesis one way or the other.
>
>Either that, or find a reference to such an analysis done by someone else.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 15 23:46:15 2000
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:50:11 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
Cc: karen1111 alltel.net, smithp@wra.net, rsmith2@mediaone.net, tomcar@apk.net,
        tomsm53401 aol.com
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At 8:00 AM 10/15/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Mitchell Jomes' derivation makes clear that
>"the side closet to the common center of mass [of the Earth - Moon
>system] bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it
>bulges away."
>
>I wonder if there is an experiment (demonstration) that
>could make this point.


I don't offhand see an improved experiment.  I think the proposed
experiment under discussion should already demonstrate the required
principles, though I now see that it is not so clear.  The part that
remains for clarification is the interpretation of the experiment, the
interpretation of what "closer" and "bulges toward it" mean.

The center of mass of the two nuts is always the center of gravity of the
model earth.  The orbit, the locus of motion, is located there.  The
direction of the net force must be measured by the distance the nuts are
from that orbit.  The inner nut is located toward the center of the orbit,
so the net force there is inward.  The outer nut is located away from the
center of mass of the two nuts, so its net force is directed outward.   It
is not valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the
orbit.  The force on the two nuts together is almost exactly in balance,
i.e. the net cetrifugal force on the two taken together matches the net
centripetal force from the string.  Thus the centrifugal force from the two
combined masses, taken as located at the center of mass, is located very
close to the locus of the orbit at a radius that provides matching
centripetal force (provided the length of the string is very long in
proportion to the length of the rubber band, i.e. the radius of the orbit
is large in comparison to the radius of the model earth.)

It is not valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the
orbit.  It is somewhat confusing that the extra centripetal force exerted
on the far side nut is from the rubber band and thus represents the
electrostatic force, the force from the stress on the earth.  The (third)
experiment, which is the experiment under discussion now, IS a bit
unrealistic in that there is no gravitational force at all assigned to the
far nut.  All the gravitational force, which is represented by the
centripital force of the string, is applied only to the first nut. To be
more realistic a second lesser force would have to be applied to the far
nut to simulate the weaker gravity out there.  In the real case there are
centripetal and centrifugal forces on both bulges, just as there is in the
model.  The difficulty comes in interpreting the meaning of the force
propigated by the rubber band, or by the inside of the earth.  The
direction of force is dependent upon your reference frame.  If you are on
the earth, or if you were located on the center of the rubber band with a
special string attached to you to balance your net forces to zero, it
appears there is a net force pulling on the near side and a net force
pushing on the far side.  If you are on the moon, or pulling on the string
from the center of motion, it appears all the force is directed outward.

I have been away for a while to Anchorage, but I see Mitchell Jones is
continuing grinding forward in his usual diligent manner.  I would like to
point out that, though he has determined that the the center of mass of the
Earth-Moon system is located about 1700 km beneath the earth's surface, and
therefore both the centripital and centrifugal force of the "near" lunar
tidal bumps are in the same direction, this does not hold for the solar
tide, which also has two bumps.  The fact that the center of mass is
located inside the earth is coincidental to the fact that there are both
near side and far side bumps, and to the fact the far side bump is due to
inirtia.  The earth-sun center of mass is located inside the sun, yet we
still experience a both a near side and far side tidal bump from the sun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 04:31:56 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Bond-Splitting UV Cathode
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The 253.7 nanometer (4.8876 ev) UV photons can split bonds or ionize aqueous species:

H-H  (4.526 ev)

D-D (4.609 ev)

H-O (4.438 ev)

K <--->  K+  + ( e-)  (4.34 ev)

The 185 nanometer (6.702 ev) UV photons can split higher energy bonds:

O-O (5.174 ev)

O-H (5.170 ev)

 http://www.light-sources.com/germ.html

Seems that having a quartz UV bulb cathode of a few watts immersed in
the electrolysis cell would make a "Cold Plasma" around itself, with or without running
a current through the cell.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 04:46:07 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: pole shift
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At 8:00 AM 10/15/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Mitchell Jomes' derivation makes clear that
>"the side closet to the common center of mass [of the Earth - Moon
>system] bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it
>bulges away."
>
>I wonder if there is an experiment (demonstration) that
>could make this point.


The follwoing is an edit version of what I posted prior, edited in an
attempt to make the language more clear.

I don't offhand see an improved experiment.  I think the proposed
experiment under discussion should already demonstrate the required
principles, though I now see that it is not so clear.  The part that
remains for clarification is the interpretation of the experiment, the
interpretation of what "closer" and "bulges toward it" mean.

The proposed experiment under discussion, experiment number three, is to
first tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then use a rubber band to tie
a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now represents the interior of
the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the two nuts separate.  The
inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the inner nut.  The outer nut
is equivalent to the back bump.

The center of mass of the two nuts, the center of the rubber band, is
always the center of gravity of the model earth.  The orbit, the locus of
motion, is located there.  The direction of the net force on each nut must
be measured by the distance that nut is from the orbit locus.  The inner
nut is located toward the center of the center of the orbit, away from the
center of mass of the two nuts, so the net force there is inward.  The
outer nut is located away from the center of mass of the two nuts, and away
from the center of the orbit, so its net force is directed outward.   It is
not valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the orbit.
The force on the two nuts together is almost exactly in balance, i.e. the
net cetrifugal force of the two nuts taken together matches the net
centripetal force from the string.  Thus the centrifugal force from the two
combined masses, taken as located at the center of mass, is located very
close to the locus of the orbit at a radius that provides matching
centripetal force (provided the length of the string is very long in
proportion to the length of the rubber band, i.e. the radius of the orbit
is large in comparison to the radius of the model earth.)

It is not valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the
orbit.  It is somewhat confusing that the extra centripetal force exerted
on the far side nut is from the rubber band and thus represents the
electrostatic force, the force from the stress on the earth.  The (third)
experiment, which is the experiment under discussion now, IS a bit
unrealistic in that there is no gravitational force at all assigned to the
far nut.  All the gravitational force, which is represented by the
centripital force of the string, is applied only to the first nut. To be
more realistic a second lesser force would have to be applied to the far
nut to simulate the weaker gravity out there.  In the real case of the
earth-moon system there are centripetal and centrifugal forces on both
bulges, just as there is in the model.  The difficulty comes in
interpreting the meaning of the force propigated by the rubber band, or the
meaning of the force carried by the inside of the earth.  The direction of
force is dependent upon your reference frame.  If you are on the earth, or
if you were located on the center of the rubber band with a special string
attached to you to balance your net forces to zero, it appears there is a
net force pulling on the near side and a net force pushing on the far side.
If you were in the center of the moon, or pulling on the string from the
center of motion, it appears all the force is directed outward.

I have been away for a while to Anchorage, but I see Mitchell Jones is
continuing grinding forward in his usual diligent manner.  I would like to
point out that, though he has determined that the the center of mass of the
Earth-Moon system is located about 1700 km beneath the earth's surface, and
therefore both the centripital and centrifugal force of the "near" lunar
tidal bump are in the same direction, this does not hold for the solar
tide, which also has two bumps.  The fact that the center of mass of the
earth-moon system is located inside the earth is coincidental to the fact
that there are both near side and far side bumps, and to the fact the far
side bump is due to inirtia.  The earth-sun center of mass is located
inside the sun, yet we still experience both a near side and far side tidal
bump from the sun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 8:00 AM 10/15/0, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Mitchell Jomes' derivation makes clear that
>"the side closet to the common center of mass [of the Earth - Moon
>system] bulges toward it, and the side farthest from it
>bulges away."
>
>I wonder if there is an experiment (demonstration) that
>could make this point.


The follwoing is the second edit version of what I posted prior, edited
(yet again!) in an attempt to make the language more clear.

I don't offhand see an improved experiment.  I think the proposed
experiment under discussion should already demonstrate the required
principles, though I now see that it is not so clear.  The part that
remains for clarification is the interpretation of the experiment, the
interpretation of what "closer" and "bulges toward it" mean.

The proposed experiment under discussion, experiment number three, is to
first tie a nut onto the end of the string.  Then use a rubber band to tie
a second nut to the first.  The rubber band now represents the interior of
the earth.  As the rotation speed increases, the two nuts separate.  The
inirtia of the outer nut pulls it away from the inner nut.  The outer nut
is equivalent to the back bump.  The inner nut is the equivalent of the
inner bump.

The center of mass of the two nuts, the center of the rubber band, is
always the center of gravity of the model earth.  The orbit, the locus of
motion, is located there.  The direction of the net force on each nut must
be measured by the distance that nut is from the orbit locus.  The inner
nut is located toward  the center of the orbit, away from the center of
mass of the two nuts, so the net force there is inward.  The outer nut is
located away from the center of mass of the two nuts, and away from the
center of the orbit, so its net force is directed outward.   It is not
valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the orbit.
The force on the two nuts together is almost exactly in balance, i.e. the
net cetrifugal force of the two nuts taken together (plus the centrifugal
force on the rubber band) matches the net centripetal force from the
string.  Thus the centrifugal force from the two combined masses, taken as
located at the center of mass, is located very close to the locus of the
orbit at a radius that provides matching centripetal force (provided the
length of the string is very long in proportion to the length of the rubber
band, i.e. the radius of the orbit is large in comparison to the radius of
the model earth.)

It is not valid to interpret the length of the string as the radius of the
orbit.  It is somewhat confusing that the extra centripetal force exerted
on the far side nut is from the rubber band and thus represents the
electrostatic force, the force from the stress on the earth.  The (third)
experiment, which is the experiment under discussion now, IS a bit
unrealistic in that there is no gravitational force at all assigned to the
far nut.  All the gravitational force, which is represented by the
centripital force of the string, is applied only to the first nut. To be
more realistic a second lesser force would have to be applied to the far
nut to simulate the weaker gravity out there.  In the real case of the
earth-moon system there are centripetal and centrifugal forces on both
bulges, just as there is in the model.  The difficulty comes in
interpreting the meaning of the force propigated by the rubber band, or the
meaning of the force carried by the inside of the earth.  The direction of
force is dependent upon your location.  If you are on the earth, or if you
were located on the center of the rubber band with a special string
attached to you to balance your net forces to zero, and all you "feel" at
any location is the net force, it appears there is a net force pulling on
the near side and a net force pushing on the far side.  If you were in the
center of the moon, or pulling on the string from the center of motion, it
appears all the force is directed outward.

I have been away for a while to Anchorage, but I see Mitchell Jones is
continuing grinding forward in his usual diligent manner.  I would like to
point out that, though he has determined that the the center of mass of the
Earth-Moon system is located about 1700 km beneath the earth's surface, and
therefore both the centripital and centrifugal force of the "near" lunar
tidal bump are in the same direction, this does not hold for the solar
tide, which also has two bumps.  The fact that the center of mass of the
earth-moon system is located inside the earth is coincidental to the fact
that there are both near side and far side bumps, and to the fact the far
side bump is due to inirtia.  The earth-sun center of mass is located
inside the sun, yet we still experience both a near side and far side tidal
bump from the sun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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These are packaged units that could easily be modified to a Bond-Splitting
UV Cathode Electrolysis Cell.

Amenable to flow calorimetry too.

BTW, the H-OH bond requires a 5.170 ev UV photon for fracturing.

 http://www.krudico.com/uv.htm

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 08:50:01 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Free Access to STKE Extended Until Jan. 2001
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:08:29 -0400
From: Science's STKE <memuser aaas.org>
Reply-To: Science's STKE <memuser aaas.org>
To: AKI IX.NETCOM.COM

Dear AAAS Member,

Science's Signal Transduction Knowledge Environment (STKE), 
located at http://www.stke.org, has extended its free access period 
until January, 2001.

Signal Transduction is one of the hottest and most cross-
disciplinary areas of the life sciences and Science's STKE brings 
together the diverse array of research, opinion, and resources 
essential for cutting-edge work in this growing field.

If you are interested in learning more about signal transduction, 
now is the time to visit the site, which tailors its information to 
your unique interests.

Beginning January 1, 2001, access will be by subscription only.  
An order form with secure credit card processing and immediate 
online access will be posted closer to that date.

Please pass this news onto any colleagues you know who may 
want to take advantage of the extended free access period.

Sincerely,
The Editorial Staff of Science's STKE

P.S.  This message was sent to you with the genuine belief that its 
contents would be of interest to you.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 09:25:56 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:21:44 -0700
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Edmund Storms wrote:
> >
> >According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
> >sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
> >when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
> >these records.
> >
> >Hi Ed,
> >
> >Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
> >covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
> >Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?
>
> ***{As I pointed out the other day, the type of pole shift Ed seems to be
> talking about--i.e., a large movement of the Earth's crust relative to its
> spin axis--would be accompanied by a large movement in the magnetic pole.
> However, the link that I posted the other daycharts such movements back
> hundreds of millions of years, and gives no indication of any very large
> movements of the sort that Ed seems to be talking about, and certainly none
> in the last 12,000 years. (See the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the
> page at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html.) The
> largest pole shift permitted by this chart is the one shown at the far
> left, where the pole moved roughly 15 degrees SW and then undid most of
> that movement by moving about 15 degrees NNE. Moreover, there is no reason
> to suppose that even this movement was sudden, since the separation between
> these plots probably simply means that all of the rock formed during the
> intervening time intervals was at some point subducted down to a
> temperature above the Curie point, and its magnetic imprinting was lost.
> (Or else that it still exists, but we haven't drilled through it yet.) In
> any event, even if some to these plot separations *were* accomplished via
> suddent shifts, none of them seems large enough to fit Ed's descriptions.
> Thus, as far as I can see at present, Mandeville's hypothesis conflicts
> with the known facts. (More comments below.) --MJ}***

Clearly, the conclusion about a sudden shift in the crust must rest on many more
observations than ice cores at a few sites.  Prof. Charles Hapgood examined a
wide range of observations in "Path of the North Pole", a copy of which I was
kindly loaned by Mike Carrell.  In this very detailed analysis, Hapgood makes a
very strong case for a sudden shift in the crust as the only way to reconcile all
of the  many observations.  He concludes that numerous such shifts have occurred
at a more or less regular intervals, with the last one between 11,000 and 14,000
years ago.  I realize it is unfair to make a case on the basis of an out of print
book, but I suggest all of the available data, most of which is not easy to
acquire, must be considered.  I also acknowledge that all geological events can
be explained by any number of models, as has been the case.  However, when all of
the observations are considered together, the only totally consistent explanation
is a rapid shift in the crust.  Even so, Hapgood can not determine whether this
rapid shift lasted a week or 100 years.  It took the added information provided
by Mandeville to pin the major part of the last shift down to about 6 days, based
on ancient memories.  I suggest that major shifts in the crust have been proven,
the speed of shift is still open to debate, and when the next shift will occur
must rest entirely on one's faith in Edgar Cayce.

Ed Storms

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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:12:50 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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Ed Storms wrote:

>I suggest that major shifts in the crust have been proven,
>the speed of shift is still open to debate, and when the next shift will occur
>must rest entirely on one's faith in Edgar Cayce.
>
>Ed Storms

A very weak piece of 'evidence', but one I find somehow compelling, 
is the  fascination globally that ancient people seemed to have with 
the seasonal cycles. In particular there is the celebratory 
tendencies that seemed to prevail when it would be found through 
observation that at the equinoxes, the celestial markers were in good 
agreement with their expected positions. Some of our major holidays 
in modern times are the echoes of these ancient celebrations - like 
halloween.

Confirmation of stability would be great relief to those who's 
immediate ancestors had endured the chaos and hardship of major 
disruptions in geology and weather, when records and memories of such 
things were still fresh. Of course it's very easy now to cast off 
such things as the natural outgrowth of various kinds of 
nature-worship, but still the great *relief* shown when it's found 
that all's right with the heavens is a distinct and prominent feature 
across various ancient cultures. I tend to think they may have had a 
very specific reason for their insecurity.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:53:29 GMT
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Hi Horace, All,

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 03:50:25 -0800, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>I have been away for a while to Anchorage, but I see Mitchell Jones is
>continuing grinding forward in his usual diligent manner.  I would like to
>point out that, though he has determined that the the center of mass of the
>Earth-Moon system is located about 1700 km beneath the earth's surface, and
>therefore both the centripital and centrifugal force of the "near" lunar
>tidal bump are in the same direction, this does not hold for the solar
>tide, which also has two bumps.  The fact that the center of mass of the
>earth-moon system is located inside the earth is coincidental to the fact
>that there are both near side and far side bumps, and to the fact the far
>side bump is due to inirtia.  The earth-sun center of mass is located
>inside the sun, yet we still experience both a near side and far side tidal
>bump from the sun.

I suspect one of the difficulties people have in visualizing the tidal
bumps is that the Earth spins on it's axis.

Temporarily, ignore the Sun's effect, and pretend the Earth always has
one side facing the Moon, just as the Moon faces the Earth.  Then the
Earth-Moon system can be easily seen to produce centrifugal bumps away
from the center of mass on both bodies as they rotate around each
other.  There are also gravity bumps on both bodies on the side toward
each other.

Since the Moon is a much more rigid body than the Earth, the
tidal/centrifugal bulges aren't as apparent as on the Earth (but the
Moon's more massive side faces the Earth, implying force of gravity is
stronger than the centrifugal force).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Confirmation of stability would be great relief to those who's immediate 
>ancestors had endured the chaos and hardship of major disruptions in 
>geology and weather, when records and memories of such things were still fresh.

Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today, without 
extraordinary events such as a poll shift. Nature as we know it is dramatic 
enough, and it is easy to see how it gives rise to the anxiety people 
express with these rituals. People living in primitive conditions are 
acutely aware of the dangers that accompany every season: drought in 
summer, an early freeze in autumn, freezing and starving in winter and 
flood in spring. They are grateful to survive from one season to the next. 
Even modern-day farmers feel this way, and they express it clearly in daily 
conversation and rituals. At least, in Japan they do.

Records and memories of starvation brought about by weather are still fresh 
because they still happen in most countries, and even in Japan they are 
still within living memory.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 13:51:49 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:49:20 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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Jed -

>Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today, 
>without extraordinary events such as a poll shift.

This of course is true, but the distinction I was trying to emphasize 
was that there was celebration and relief that *astronomical* 
observations continued to look good, and there are special prayers, 
chants, etc. giving thanks for that specific fact. That seems to 
point to significance quite beyond regular seasonal variations, 
droughts and floods, etc. Why should there be any insecurity at all 
about something as seemingly reliable as the path of the sun and 
stars in the sky, let alone a widespread global culture of fear of 
the potential for such (unthinkable) changes?

If the ancients got wiped in a given year but saw that the stars were 
still fixed in their places, the would be able to write it off as the 
usual variations and stay put, use seed for planting, mend nets and 
so forth for another try next season. But if the sky moved, they 
could count on years of severe hardship to follow - time to abandon 
the shoreline and agricultural communities and switch into serious 
outback survival mode - something we'd find ourselves trying to do 
too.

- Rick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 13:52:05 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Ed Storms wrote:
>
> >I suggest that major shifts in the crust have been proven,
> >the speed of shift is still open to debate, and when the next shift will occur
> >must rest entirely on one's faith in Edgar Cayce.
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> A very weak piece of 'evidence', but one I find somehow compelling,
> is the  fascination globally that ancient people seemed to have with
> the seasonal cycles. In particular there is the celebratory
> tendencies that seemed to prevail when it would be found through
> observation that at the equinoxes, the celestial markers were in good
> agreement with their expected positions. Some of our major holidays
> in modern times are the echoes of these ancient celebrations - like
> halloween.
>
> Confirmation of stability would be great relief to those who's
> immediate ancestors had endured the chaos and hardship of major
> disruptions in geology and weather, when records and memories of such
> things were still fresh. Of course it's very easy now to cast off
> such things as the natural outgrowth of various kinds of
> nature-worship, but still the great *relief* shown when it's found
> that all's right with the heavens is a distinct and prominent feature
> across various ancient cultures. I tend to think they may have had a
> very specific reason for their insecurity.

A good point, but I tend to agree with Jed, i.e. the weather is more important
than a potential pole shift.  Nevertheless, the ancient people clearly were very
impressed by what happened and saw to it that the information was passed down,
although in rather garbled form.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 14:50:43 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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Rick Monteverde wrote:


>>Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today, 
>>without extraordinary events such as a poll shift.
>
>This of course is true, but the distinction I was trying to emphasize was 
>that there was celebration and relief that *astronomical* observations 
>continued to look good, and there are special prayers, chants, etc. giving 
>thanks for that specific fact.

Perhaps I have seen only the surviving modern expressions of these rituals, 
but the impression I get is that people are expressing thanks for having 
survived another season. A winter festival is held on the shortest day of 
the year when there is enough food left in the granary, and people are 
likely to survive until spring. (After a crop failure when there isn't 
enough food left, the festival may be cancelled.)

In some primitive societies, people held rituals because they feared that 
if they did not, the seasons would stop working. You might say they feared 
the days would "forget" to grow longer. (Or you might say, God would punish 
them by turning off the seasons and leaving them to freeze, as he sometimes 
appeared to do anyway, ritual or no.) This was a reflection of man as the 
focus of the universe, a point of view which is still very much alive in 
modern society. Not to denigrate religion, but a few years ago at a formal 
garden in Atlanta, the tour guide explained that butterflies are put on 
earth "to remind us that God loves beauty" or some such thing. She meant 
that butterflies exist as a message to human beings. She was not using a 
poetic or metaphorical expression. (I asked her if she meant it literally.) 
She believed, just as ancient people did, that species were created in 
order to teach us lessons, or to communicate something about nature to us.

Crazy people often take natural events as a personal affront. King Lear 
railed against the storm. An old woman I knew would open her door and shout 
"turn off that searchlight!" when the afternoon sun would shine into her house.

Also, modern people with this ancient mindset seriously believe that our 
opinions, tastes and fears somehow rule the natural world. Years ago on 
television I heard an example of this, in an argument in favor of 
creationism (which was completely serious). It went something like this: 
"We know that birds could not have evolved from dinosaurs or other lizards, 
because birds are beautiful and sweet and small, and they make wonderful 
songs, whereas lizards are cruel and ugly and repulsive, and they hiss, and 
dinosaurs were huge." The speaker classified the natural order according to 
his personal likes and dislikes, and whether he felt an affinity or 
repulsion for one species or another.

As long as I am on the subject, there is a related ancient belief which I 
find fascinating. I recall that in the middle ages, a pig was tried and put 
to death by hanging for stealing food out of a garden. In another case, 
flies were excommunicated (or something) for bothering a high authority. 
People had the sense that human laws, conventions and morality extended 
over the natural world, and nature was (or should be) under our 
jurisdiction. In an example from modern times, recently a man in Texas saw 
one of his male dogs mounting another male dog and going through the 
motions of copulation. He was so upset over this homosexual display, he 
dragged the dog out and beat it to death. I think the ASPCA filed a 
complaint. People who think that pigs, flies and dogs should obey human 
laws are one step away from imagining that the sun and seasons are under 
our control too, whether we want them to be or not, and it is our 
responsibility to perform periodic maintenance, or they will malfunction, 
like an engine which has not been oiled, or a field which has not been weeded.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 15:19:30 2000
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One more note about this. Years ago, an anthropology prof. explained during 
a lecture: If you miss the graduation ceremony, you may feel a sense of 
personal loss or disappointment. [And I suppose in earlier times 
technically you would not have a degree. - JR] You have to remember that 
primitive people placed far more importance in this kind of ritual than we 
do. They believed that if they did not perform the spring planting 
ceremony, spring would not come, the food would not grow.

They thought the ceremony was as essential as the act of planting the 
seeds. It made sense: they knew that planting alone sometimes does not 
work. They would plant but nothing would grow, so they figured some other 
act on their part was missing or performed incorrectly. They lacked the 
sense that seeds and bacteria have a life of their own, and that seeds 
grow, rot or suffer from disease independent of human desires and actions. 
One of the most important changes brought about by the scientific 
revolution was to remove man as the focus of all events, and to see nature 
as having its own imperatives, and its own laws. We all know this, but it 
is a shock when you see what the old beliefs led to, such as when you read 
ancient books or hear anthropologists describe societies where this 
revolution has not occurred. The ancient world view is indescribably alien 
to the modern mind. It is difficult for us to imagine how it permeated so 
many daily acts, habits and thoughts in daily life.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 15:58:43 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:56:52 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:56:13 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>>Confirmation of stability would be great relief to those who's immediate 
>>ancestors had endured the chaos and hardship of major disruptions in 
>>geology and weather, when records and memories of such things were still fresh.
>
>Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today, without 
>extraordinary events such as a poll shift. 

Of course they do.

>Nature as we know it is dramatic 
>enough, and it is easy to see how it gives rise to the anxiety people 
>express with these rituals. People living in primitive conditions are 
>acutely aware of the dangers that accompany every season: drought in 
>summer, an early freeze in autumn, freezing and starving in winter and 
>flood in spring. 

The normal, "everyday" disasters don't have stories or songs written
about them.  The Galveston hurricane had a song written ("Wasn't that
a mighty day?"), but hurricanes, blizzards, big quakes and other
disasters happen once or twice in most people's lifetimes.  These are
normal catastrophes.  

Even such events as the black plague, Vesuvius eruptions, etc. are
barely remembered except for written history.  It's the really big
catastrophes that are remembered without the need for a written
history -- or written down after generations of people have passed
down the memories.

>They are grateful to survive from one season to the next. 
>Even modern-day farmers feel this way, and they express it clearly in daily 
>conversation and rituals. At least, in Japan they do.

Sure, there are normal seasonal celebrations, but a farmer doesn't
need an observatory to tell him when the equinoxes come to pass.
That's a rather simple observation.

>Records and memories of starvation brought about by weather are still fresh 
>because they still happen in most countries, and even in Japan they are 
>still within living memory.

That's right.  RECENT memories of starvation are fresh.  But memories
of ancient bad events signify that the events are orders of magnitude
more devastating than ordinary disasters.

If you have the time, see if you can find a copy of "Mankind in
Amnesia" by psychiatrist Emmanuel Velikovsky.  You see, he wrote his
"Worlds in Collision" trilogy because he and his associates stumbled
upon indications that the whole human race was acting as if it had a
collective amnesia.  "Mankind in Amnesia" was written prior to the
other books, but published posthumously because Velikovsky was well
aware that one of the normal characteristics of amnesia is denial of
the traumatic event causing the amnesia.  (BTW, some of his associates
and friends were Jung, Freud, Adler, Einstein.)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:46:43 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>In some primitive societies, people held rituals because they feared that 
>if they did not, the seasons would stop working. You might say they feared 
>the days would "forget" to grow longer. 

I agree.  If the seasons had never "stopped working," then why would
there be any concern that they might stop working some time?  The only
answer is that they DID STOP at some point in racial memory.

>Crazy people often take natural events as a personal affront. King Lear 
>railed against the storm. An old woman I knew would open her door and shout 
>"turn off that searchlight!" when the afternoon sun would shine into her house.

I do the same type of things at times.  :)  But I suspect that neither
the old woman's or my little amusing rants are going to be preserved
in myth.

>As long as I am on the subject, there is a related ancient belief which I 
>find fascinating. I recall that in the middle ages, a pig was tried and put 
>to death by hanging for stealing food out of a garden. In another case, 
>flies were excommunicated (or something) for bothering a high authority. 

Hey, the fly thing works.  Two years ago I sat down and had a long
talk with some flies in my house.  I let them know I had the power to
kill them if they annoyed me, and we came to an agreement that I
wouldn't bother them outside as long as they didn't come into the
house.  Except for a dozen or so flies inside during the last 2 years,
our house is fly-free.   (I didn't kill the flies that strayed inside,
but let them out a window which they went to.  One fly landed on my
hand and I carried it outside, still sitting on my hand.)

PS:  Even though my family thought I was being humorous when I talked
to the flies, I was being very serious -- and apparently the flies
"knew" that.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 16:11:27 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Jed -
>
> >Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today,
> >without extraordinary events such as a poll shift.
>
> This of course is true, but the distinction I was trying to emphasize
> was that there was celebration and relief that *astronomical*
> observations continued to look good, and there are special prayers,
> chants, etc. giving thanks for that specific fact. That seems to
> point to significance quite beyond regular seasonal variations,
> droughts and floods, etc. Why should there be any insecurity at all
> about something as seemingly reliable as the path of the sun and
> stars in the sky, let alone a widespread global culture of fear of
> the potential for such (unthinkable) changes?
>
> If the ancients got wiped in a given year but saw that the stars were
> still fixed in their places, the would be able to write it off as the
> usual variations and stay put, use seed for planting, mend nets and
> so forth for another try next season. But if the sky moved, they
> could count on years of severe hardship to follow - time to abandon
> the shoreline and agricultural communities and switch into serious
> outback survival mode - something we'd find ourselves trying to do
> too.
>

After more thought, I think the point Rick has made, i.e. the great
emphasis of the ancients on the heavens gives support to a "pole shift",
has great merit.  A pole shift would not occur all at once.  The
position of the sun and stars would start to change, this change would
accelerate and reach a catastrophic speed, then it would slow down but
continue for maybe 1000 years.  During that time, anyone growing crops
would find that the seasons were not stable and would require additional
information to known when to plant, thus observation of the heavens
would be made part of the culture. Just a thought.

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 16:36:32 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:30:59 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:14:26 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>You have to remember that 
>primitive people placed far more importance in this kind of ritual than we 
>do. They believed that if they did not perform the spring planting 
>ceremony, spring would not come, the food would not grow.

>They thought the ceremony was as essential as the act of planting the 
>seeds. It made sense: they knew that planting alone sometimes does not 
>work. They would plant but nothing would grow, so they figured some other 
>act on their part was missing or performed incorrectly. They lacked the 
>sense that seeds and bacteria have a life of their own, and that seeds 
>grow, rot or suffer from disease independent of human desires and actions. 

That's a cute explanation, but it doesn't fit the facts.  The facts
are:  Wheat, maize, bananas, apples, oranges and many, many other
crops are not natural products.  That is, they are ALL specially
selected hybrids of the original plants (and we've identified the
genetic precursors).  The "primitive people" did a better job of
producing a wider variety of food plants than Mendel or Burbank ever
did.  Also, these ancient hybrids are genetically stable, unlike
modern hybrids.  IOW, to produce these hybrids they had a really good
understanding of plants and growing them.

>One of the most important changes brought about by the scientific 
>revolution was to remove man as the focus of all events, and to see nature 
>as having its own imperatives, and its own laws. We all know this, but it 
>is a shock when you see what the old beliefs led to, such as when you read 
>ancient books or hear anthropologists describe societies where this 
>revolution has not occurred. The ancient world view is indescribably alien 
>to the modern mind. It is difficult for us to imagine how it permeated so 
>many daily acts, habits and thoughts in daily life.

Alien, yes.  But mostly logical based on what they had available to
use.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 19:04:03 2000
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>From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Subject: Re: pole shift
>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:14:26 -0400

>One of the most important changes brought about by the scientific
>revolution was to remove man as the focus of all events, and to see nature
>as having its own imperatives, and its own laws. We all know this, but it
>is a shock when you see what the old beliefs led to, such as when you read
>ancient books or hear anthropologists describe societies where this
>revolution has not occurred. The ancient world view is indescribably alien
>to the modern mind. It is difficult for us to imagine how it permeated so
>many daily acts, habits and thoughts in daily life.
>
>- Jed
>


Actually, I don't know about you, but in my experience, regardless of what a 
person says or knows, the events that directly impact them are more "real" 
than those they just hear about.  which may or may not have be relevant.

Anyway... the attitude Jed talks about is still very prevalent today, 
everyone who has ever prayed for some result has felt that sense of 
helplessness before the might of the universe.

Prayers, Spells, Rituals, etc. are all ways that man can feel he has some 
influence and control over things which logically are beyond him.

Merlyn
"I think therefore I am" Descartes... but he couldn't prove anyone else 
existed.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 19:21:24 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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As far as sulfate count goes, I have a problem with that...

The Earth is not so far away from a sphere that a massive cracking and 
volcanic activity be required to my mind,

Under sufficient pressure earth can practically liquefy (happens ocasionally 
during earthquakes, causing buildings to sink into the ground)

In essence, I don't think that the earth is rigid enough to require that 
kind of seismic activity, craking all the way to the mantle all over, during 
a pole shift.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 20:07:45 2000
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Can anyone give me a decent source for an infrared laser?
A friend has some theories to try out about the ionization properties of an 
IR beam.

Thanx
Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 20:13:29 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:13:08 GMT
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Hi Ed,

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:11:48 -0700, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>A pole shift would not occur all at once.  The
>position of the sun and stars would start to change, this change would
>accelerate and reach a catastrophic speed, then it would slow down but
>continue for maybe 1000 years.  

A pole (or crust) shift could take place in 24 hours and unless you
looked at the skies, or lived in a place (such as near an ocean) you
probably wouldn't even notice it happening.

Let's try a pole shift that takes 24 hours, with an acceleration of 1
MPH per minute (sorry, I don't think in metric :).  That acceleration
is rather small, for it would take 60 minutes to get up to 60 MPH.  In
fact, it would be rather hard for a person to take a step that slowly.
(Normal walking speed is 3-4 MPH, and we get to that speed with the
first step -- within  one second.)

So, at an acceleration of 1 MPH, we'll be going 60 MPH after one hour,
120 MPH after 2 hours, etc.  At 12 hours we'll be going 720 MPH, at
which time we start slowing down at the same rate.  Our average speed
will be 360 MPH -- over 24 hours -- or a distance of 8640 miles.  A
shift of about 120 degrees.

And at an acceleration of 1 MPH, we probably wouldn't feel it.  Nor
would buildings, rocks, etc. notice the change unless they were very
critically balanced (winds, quakes, etc. put far more force on things
sticking out of the ground).

What would notice the change are ocean and air currents.  The sea
would pull away from some shore and come rampaging onto other shores.
The ocean would be violent for weeks and/or months following a shift.
The wind systems would most likely create some super
cyclones/hurricanes as they adjusted to new land patterns -- probably
lasting a few days to a week or so.

And, of course, volcanos probably wouldn't be happy, nor would
tectonic plates where they get twisted.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 16 23:40:04 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 02:39:18 EDT
Subject: Re: pole shift
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In a message dated 10/16/00 7:21:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
merlyn_x hotmail.com writes:

> In essence, I don't think that the earth is rigid enough to require that 
>  kind of seismic activity, craking all the way to the mantle all over, 
during 
> 
>  a pole shift.
>  
>  Merlyn

Which would be more ridgid, the crust or the magma it floats on?

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 00:33:57 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Aaron Barth notes Mills irregularities
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There has been a remarkable development on the hydrino list.  Aaron Barth
has noted some irregularities in the Mills book.  For those who are not
subscribed to the hydrinbo list here are some selected quotes from his
post.


At 3:51 PM 10/16/0, ab1097 disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote:
[snip]
>I was looking over some of the material in Dr. Mills's book today and
>found something rather shocking.  I was reading the section on general
>relativity and I wanted to double-check something that was written
>there, so I went to my GR textbook (R. M. Wald, General Relativity,
>1984, Univ. of Chicago Press).  I was very surprised to discover that
>much of what I was reading in Mills's book was identical,
>word-for-word, to what was in Wald's textbook.
>
>Specifically: most of pages 370-377 appears to have been copied
>straight from Wald pages 94-113.  I'm not talking about just a few
>similar phrases here and there.  This appears to be large-scale,
>verbatim lifting of whole paragraphs and pages of copyrighted material
>without proper attribution.  The equations are copied down identically
>too, and so are Table 23.3 and Figure 23.2.  There are a few
>differences: Mills has inserted a few sentences here and there where
>he states his own opinions, and changed the wording very slightly in a
>few places, and he's changed the numbering of the equations and
>figures to match his own chapters.  But for the most part, what's
>written is a direct copy.
[snip]
>This may not be an isolated incident.  In looking at the ultraviolet
>astronomy section of Mills's book, I also happened to notice that
>several sentences on p. 759 are copied more or less verbatim from
>Bowyer (1994, Science, 263: 55) and from Monsignori Fossi et
>al. (1995, The Astrophysical Journal, 449: 376).  Again, the
>appropriate thing would have been either to paraphrase, or to put the
>quoted material in quotes.
[snip]
>
>-Aaron Barth

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Aaron Barth notes Mills irregularities
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>There has been a remarkable development on the hydrino list.  Aaron Barth
>has noted some irregularities in the Mills book.  For those who are not
>subscribed to the hydrinbo list here are some selected quotes from his
>post.
>
>
>At 3:51 PM 10/16/0, ab1097 disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote:
>[snip]
>>I was looking over some of the material in Dr. Mills's book today and
>>found something rather shocking.  I was reading the section on general
>>relativity and I wanted to double-check something that was written
>>there, so I went to my GR textbook (R. M. Wald, General Relativity,
>>1984, Univ. of Chicago Press).  I was very surprised to discover that
>>much of what I was reading in Mills's book was identical,
>>word-for-word, to what was in Wald's textbook.
>>
>>Specifically: most of pages 370-377 appears to have been copied
>>straight from Wald pages 94-113.  I'm not talking about just a few
>>similar phrases here and there.  This appears to be large-scale,
>>verbatim lifting of whole paragraphs and pages of copyrighted material
>>without proper attribution.  The equations are copied down identically
>>too, and so are Table 23.3 and Figure 23.2.  There are a few
>>differences: Mills has inserted a few sentences here and there where
>>he states his own opinions, and changed the wording very slightly in a
>>few places, and he's changed the numbering of the equations and
>>figures to match his own chapters.  But for the most part, what's
>>written is a direct copy.
>[snip]
>>This may not be an isolated incident.  In looking at the ultraviolet
>>astronomy section of Mills's book, I also happened to notice that
>>several sentences on p. 759 are copied more or less verbatim from
>>Bowyer (1994, Science, 263: 55) and from Monsignori Fossi et
>>al. (1995, The Astrophysical Journal, 449: 376).  Again, the
>>appropriate thing would have been either to paraphrase, or to put the
>>quoted material in quotes.
>[snip]
>>
>>-Aaron Barth
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

***{Hi, Horace. If the above allegations are true, this is a very serious
matter indeed. Even if the passages in question were inserted into a recent
revision of the book and the mandatory quotes were inadvertently omitted,
it bespeaks a sloppiness about matters of detail that is likely to derail
Mills' efforts to maintain the flow of funds into his organization, and it
is also guaranteed to create an uproar that will totally divert attention
from his substantive scientific claims. Nothing good can come of it, either
for Mills, or for other investigators into anomalous science. All it will
do is provide real ammunition to critics who, by their past behavior, are
determined to impugn this type of research whether the facts warrant it or
not, and will further encourage the already dominant belief that everyone
in the field is either crooked or incompetent. Bottom line: this is an
outright disaster, if in fact these charges prove to be true. --MJ}***


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:28:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>> Jed -
>>
>> >Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today,
>> >without extraordinary events such as a poll shift.
>>
>> This of course is true, but the distinction I was trying to emphasize
>> was that there was celebration and relief that *astronomical*
>> observations continued to look good, and there are special prayers,
>> chants, etc. giving thanks for that specific fact. That seems to
>> point to significance quite beyond regular seasonal variations,
>> droughts and floods, etc. Why should there be any insecurity at all
>> about something as seemingly reliable as the path of the sun and
>> stars in the sky, let alone a widespread global culture of fear of
>> the potential for such (unthinkable) changes?
>>
>> If the ancients got wiped in a given year but saw that the stars were
>> still fixed in their places, the would be able to write it off as the
>> usual variations and stay put, use seed for planting, mend nets and
>> so forth for another try next season. But if the sky moved, they
>> could count on years of severe hardship to follow - time to abandon
>> the shoreline and agricultural communities and switch into serious
>> outback survival mode - something we'd find ourselves trying to do
>> too.
>>
>
>After more thought, I think the point Rick has made, i.e. the great
>emphasis of the ancients on the heavens gives support to a "pole shift",
>has great merit.  A pole shift would not occur all at once.  The
>position of the sun and stars would start to change, this change would
>accelerate and reach a catastrophic speed, then it would slow down but
>continue for maybe 1000 years.  During that time, anyone growing crops
>would find that the seasons were not stable and would require additional
>information to known when to plant, thus observation of the heavens
>would be made part of the culture. Just a thought.
>
>Ed Storms

***{While there is no law (not yet :-) against having "a thought," I hope
that both you and Rick realize that these sorts of speculations are *not*
scientific evidence, since we may just as reasonably speculate that these
ancient beliefs arose out of the same sorts of irrationalism as, for
example, the persistent belief in nonexistent dieties, or in miracles, or
in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, or in astrology, or in psychic
spoon bending, or in the notion that the government can save lives by
violating property rights, etc. Result: such speculations are *in no way*
sufficient to undercut the hard data that have been cited by myself and
Jack, which seem to contradict Mandeville's hypothesis.

To elaborate:

(1) The data that I cited (see the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the
page at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html) appear to
contradict the Mandeville theory because the types of examples given in the
discussion of his theory by you, Mike Carrel, and others, have been of much
larger magnitude than the total movement shown in that graphic in the
hundreds of millions of years prior to the present. Since any shift in the
position of the crust relative to the spin axis of the Earth must produce a
parallel movement in the magnetic pole, such movements would show on the
graphic if they had occurred, and since they do not show, it follows that
they did not occur.

(2) The table of sulfur deposition data from Greenland ice cores (see
ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.dat),
which was supplied by Jack Smith, shows no evidence of any extraordinary
volcanic eruptions in the vicinity of the 12,000 B.C. time frame. Since the
ripping of the Earth's crust as it was slid over the equatorial bulge would
have produced massive volcanic eruptions all over the globe, there should
have been massive evidence of such a slip, if it occurred. The conclusion,
therefore, is that it did not occur.

To slip the Mandeville hypothesis past the data of (1), above, it would be
necessary to postulate that the magnitude of the slip was less than 6
degrees (the distance from the North Pole to the last plot on the chart),
which dates back roughly 780,000 years; and to slip it past the data of
(2), it would be necessary to postulate that the pole shift produced only
routine volcanic activity. Either of these adjustments, in my opinion,
would be fatal to the theory.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 08:05:57 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:57:46 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Aaron Barth notes Mills irregularities
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If Mills plagiarized textbooks, he is pretty stupid, and he is his own 
worst enemy. (As most scientists in this business are.) I do not understand 
why he would do that. He could quote them verbatim, or summarize them and 
refer the reader to them. I presume the textbooks are conventional, and his 
thesis is not. Right? So why not abbreviate the conventional aspects of it? 
Why include several pages of ordinary physics when you can write: "it is 
well known that, bla, bla, bla, (for more information see bla, bla)"

Does anyone here have access to the Mills book and the Wald textbook? This 
should be easy to verify. If true, I guess it hurts Mills credibility, but 
more to the point it makes me question his sanity, or his grip on reality. 
It seems like gratuitous cheating with no benefit. I mean, if Wald had a 
revolutionary new theory, I could see the point of stealing it and claiming 
it as your own, but why steal boring textbook prose when you borrow it with 
attribution and no one will care?

- Jed
  

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >
> >> Jed -
> >>
> >> >Chaos, hardship and major disruptions in every season occur today,
> >> >without extraordinary events such as a poll shift.
> >>
> >> This of course is true, but the distinction I was trying to emphasize
> >> was that there was celebration and relief that *astronomical*
> >> observations continued to look good, and there are special prayers,
> >> chants, etc. giving thanks for that specific fact. That seems to
> >> point to significance quite beyond regular seasonal variations,
> >> droughts and floods, etc. Why should there be any insecurity at all
> >> about something as seemingly reliable as the path of the sun and
> >> stars in the sky, let alone a widespread global culture of fear of
> >> the potential for such (unthinkable) changes?
> >>
> >> If the ancients got wiped in a given year but saw that the stars were
> >> still fixed in their places, the would be able to write it off as the
> >> usual variations and stay put, use seed for planting, mend nets and
> >> so forth for another try next season. But if the sky moved, they
> >> could count on years of severe hardship to follow - time to abandon
> >> the shoreline and agricultural communities and switch into serious
> >> outback survival mode - something we'd find ourselves trying to do
> >> too.
> >>
> >
> >After more thought, I think the point Rick has made, i.e. the great
> >emphasis of the ancients on the heavens gives support to a "pole shift",
> >has great merit.  A pole shift would not occur all at once.  The
> >position of the sun and stars would start to change, this change would
> >accelerate and reach a catastrophic speed, then it would slow down but
> >continue for maybe 1000 years.  During that time, anyone growing crops
> >would find that the seasons were not stable and would require additional
> >information to known when to plant, thus observation of the heavens
> >would be made part of the culture. Just a thought.
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> ***{While there is no law (not yet :-) against having "a thought," I hope
> that both you and Rick realize that these sorts of speculations are *not*
> scientific evidence, since we may just as reasonably speculate that these
> ancient beliefs arose out of the same sorts of irrationalism as, for
> example, the persistent belief in nonexistent dieties, or in miracles, or
> in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, or in astrology, or in psychic
> spoon bending, or in the notion that the government can save lives by
> violating property rights, etc. Result: such speculations are *in no way*
> sufficient to undercut the hard data that have been cited by myself and
> Jack, which seem to contradict Mandeville's hypothesis.

Good point.  However, what I am doing, i.e. showing  how some possibilities are
plausible is the reverse of what you do, i.e. showing that some possibilities are
not plausible.  I suggest we are both guilty of the same sin.

Hapgood makes the argument that the pole shifted suddenly from the Greenland Sea
to Hudson Bay and then to its present position.  While the magnetic pole shows a
consistent pattern with respect to these locations, the magnetic pole also shifts
because of changes in convection currents within the earth.  Thus, not all shifts
are caused by a shift in the crust.  In addition, the various shifts are hard to
tie together in a time line because the ages of the rocks are so uncertain.
Suffice to say, the magnetic pole shifts, which Hapgood considers, are not in
conflict with his conclusions.

The sulfate present in ice samples is another story.  For this to have any
relationship, one must assume that the most recent pole shifts were accompanied by
massive volcanic eruptions in the Northern hemisphere.  Rather than proving that
the shift did not occur, they rather show that massive volcanic eruptions did not
occur, at least of the kind that made volcanic ash containing sulfates.

Anyone wishing to decide for themselves whether pole shifts actually occur need to
read Hapgood's book or at least Mandeville's book.  The total collection of
evidence is overwhelming.

Ed Storms

>
>
> To elaborate:
>
> (1) The data that I cited (see the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the
> page at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html) appear to
> contradict the Mandeville theory because the types of examples given in the
> discussion of his theory by you, Mike Carrel, and others, have been of much
> larger magnitude than the total movement shown in that graphic in the
> hundreds of millions of years prior to the present. Since any shift in the
> position of the crust relative to the spin axis of the Earth must produce a
> parallel movement in the magnetic pole, such movements would show on the
> graphic if they had occurred, and since they do not show, it follows that
> they did not occur.
>
> (2) The table of sulfur deposition data from Greenland ice cores (see
> ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.dat),
> which was supplied by Jack Smith, shows no evidence of any extraordinary
> volcanic eruptions in the vicinity of the 12,000 B.C. time frame. Since the
> ripping of the Earth's crust as it was slid over the equatorial bulge would
> have produced massive volcanic eruptions all over the globe, there should
> have been massive evidence of such a slip, if it occurred. The conclusion,
> therefore, is that it did not occur.
>
> To slip the Mandeville hypothesis past the data of (1), above, it would be
> necessary to postulate that the magnitude of the slip was less than 6
> degrees (the distance from the North Pole to the last plot on the chart),
> which dates back roughly 780,000 years; and to slip it past the data of
> (2), it would be necessary to postulate that the pole shift produced only
> routine volcanic activity. Either of these adjustments, in my opinion,
> would be fatal to the theory.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 08:18:27 2000
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

> >work. They would plant but nothing would grow, so they figured some other
> >act on their part was missing or performed incorrectly. They lacked the
> >sense that seeds and bacteria have a life of their own, and that seeds
> >grow, rot or suffer from disease independent of human desires and actions.
>
>That's a cute explanation, but it doesn't fit the facts.  The facts
>are:  Wheat, maize, bananas, apples, oranges and many, many other
>crops are not natural products.  That is, they are ALL specially
>selected hybrids of the original plants (and we've identified the
>genetic precursors).  The "primitive people" did a better job of
>producing a wider variety of food plants than Mendel or Burbank ever
>did.  Also, these ancient hybrids are genetically stable, unlike
>modern hybrids.  IOW, to produce these hybrids they had a really good
>understanding of plants and growing them.

That's interesting, but irrelevant. No one has more respect for the 
abilities, knowledge and skills of ancient technologists and farmers than 
I, but the fact remains, they did believe that rituals were effective. As 
strange as it may seem to the modern mind, they believed that if they were 
unable to perform a ritual on the equinox, nature might go haywire. They 
saw the absolute regularity of the sun and stars, and thought this meant 
the rituals must be performed exactly on schedule, too. They saw themselves 
and other people as the focus of the universe. They blamed crop failure and 
illness on their own behavior or the actions of other people (witchcraft) 
instead of impersonal forces beyond anyone's control.


> >revolution has not occurred. The ancient world view is indescribably alien
> >to the modern mind. It is difficult for us to imagine how it permeated so
> >many daily acts, habits and thoughts in daily life.
>
>Alien, yes.  But mostly logical based on what they had available to
>use.

Well, I would not call this mindset logical, since a simple experiment 
would often prove they were wrong. It is understandable, deeply rooted, and 
it survives in many people in the modern world. When people get sick, they 
still blame themselves -- and indeed some illness are self-imposed, just as 
some crop failures are caused by farmers doing stupid things and ignoring 
the wisdom of the elders. But many ancient beliefs were easily tested and 
found wanting, as ancient authors themselves noted.

A modern gambler has a strong sense that he controls the outcome of the 
dice or roulette wheel by wearing a particular pair of socks or shutting 
the door in a certain way. This was described by Dostoyevski, who was 
himself a gambler, and quoted by J. Weizenbaum in "Computer Power and Human 
Reason."

- Jed

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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:11:48 -0700, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >A pole shift would not occur all at once.  The
> >position of the sun and stars would start to change, this change would
> >accelerate and reach a catastrophic speed, then it would slow down but
> >continue for maybe 1000 years.
>
> A pole (or crust) shift could take place in 24 hours and unless you
> looked at the skies, or lived in a place (such as near an ocean) you
> probably wouldn't even notice it happening.
>
> Let's try a pole shift that takes 24 hours, with an acceleration of 1
> MPH per minute (sorry, I don't think in metric :).  That acceleration
> is rather small, for it would take 60 minutes to get up to 60 MPH.  In
> fact, it would be rather hard for a person to take a step that slowly.
> (Normal walking speed is 3-4 MPH, and we get to that speed with the
> first step -- within  one second.)
>
> So, at an acceleration of 1 MPH, we'll be going 60 MPH after one hour,
> 120 MPH after 2 hours, etc.  At 12 hours we'll be going 720 MPH, at
> which time we start slowing down at the same rate.  Our average speed
> will be 360 MPH -- over 24 hours -- or a distance of 8640 miles.  A
> shift of about 120 degrees.
>
> And at an acceleration of 1 MPH, we probably wouldn't feel it.  Nor
> would buildings, rocks, etc. notice the change unless they were very
> critically balanced (winds, quakes, etc. put far more force on things
> sticking out of the ground).
>
> What would notice the change are ocean and air currents.  The sea
> would pull away from some shore and come rampaging onto other shores.
> The ocean would be violent for weeks and/or months following a shift.
> The wind systems would most likely create some super
> cyclones/hurricanes as they adjusted to new land patterns -- probably
> lasting a few days to a week or so.
>
> And, of course, volcanos probably wouldn't be happy, nor would
> tectonic plates where they get twisted.

Hi Dean,

While we have only the ancient memories from which to deduce a speed, we
also must consider the huge inertia involved in bringing the crust up to
speed and the momentum while at speed.  The greater the acceleration and
the greater the maximum speed, the greater the required stored energy and
the greater amount of energy which would have to be dissipated when the
crust slowed to a stop.  The claim that a distance of 2000 miles was
traveled in 6.5 days seems to me to be very fast indeed. However, I agree,
the acceleration would not be noticed.

As for noticing the effect, one would expect the crust to move in an
uneven manner.  Consequently, rifts and uplifting would occur.  In
addition, great wind storms with rain and flooding would be expected, as
you suggest.  The physical evidence indicates great destruction
everywhere.  Clearly, this is an event we would rather not experience.

Ed Storms


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Test message, please ignore. I was accidentally u-n-s-u-b-s-c-r-i-b-e-d, 
for some reason.

- JR 

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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:37:52 +400
Subject: Re: Aaron Barth notes Mills irregularities
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>Does anyone here have access to the Mills book and the Wald textbook? This


Check out http://www.blacklightpower.com/book.html
You can download the book in *.pdf format for free.

>should be easy to verify. If true, I guess it hurts Mills credibility, but

>more to the point it makes me question his sanity, or his grip on reality.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 09:47:10 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:42:48 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Diagoras and Bacon on superstition
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[This message triggered an unsubscribe. Maybe the Vortex Daemon is tired of 
ancient history?]

I noted that ancient authors disproved many superstitions. I had in mind 
Diagoras, in a famous exchanged described by Francis Bacon:

46. The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid down, 
(either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure it 
affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and confirmation; 
and although more cogent and abundant instances may exist to the contrary, 
yet either does not observe or despises them, or gets rid of and rejects 
them by some distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than 
sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions. It was well answered by 
him [Diagoras] who was shown in a temple the votive tablets suspended by 
such as had escaped the peril of shipwreck, and was pressed as to whether 
he would then recognise the power of the gods, by an inquiry; "But where 
are the portraits of those who have perished in spite of their vows?" All 
superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology, dreams, 
omens, retributive judgment, or the like; in all of which the deluded 
believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and pass over 
their failure, though it be much more common. But this evil insinuates 
itself still more craftily in philosophy and the sciences; in which a 
settled maxim vitiates and governs every other circumstance, though the 
latter be much more worthy of confidence. Besides, even in the absence of 
that eagerness and want of thought, (which we have mentioned,) it is the 
peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved 
and excited by affirmatives than by negatives, whereas it ought duly and 
regularly to be impartial; nay, in establishing any true axiom, the 
negative instance is the most powerful.

- Novum Organum, 1620, and still not understood 380 years later!

- Jed 

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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:49:29 -0700
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
> sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
> when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
> these records.
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
> covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
> Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?
>
> Jack Smith

Hi Jack,
Thanks for the information.  The question I have is, "How much volcanic sulfate
would be expected from a pole shift"?  Clearly, no region stands out except in
the 11000 year time frame.  If we assume the pole shift actually occurred near
12000 years, 11000 years is close enough.  On the other hand, how much volcanic
activity would be expected before the actual shift?  Unfortunately, this single
piece of evidence to too ambiguous to prove or disprove the event.

Regards,
Ed Storms

>
>
> GISP2 Volcanic markers
>
> REFERENCES:
>
> ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/chem/volcano.dat
>
> Zielinski, G.A., and G.R. Mershon. 1997. Paleoenvironmental
> implications of the insoluble microparticle record
> in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core during the rapidly
> changing climate of the Pleistocene-Holocene transition.
> Geological Society of America Bulletin 109:547-559.
>
> Zielinski, G.A., R.J. Fiacco, P.A. Mayewski, L.D. Meeker,
> S.I. Whitlow, M.S. Twickler, M.S. Germani, K. Endo, and
> M. Yasui. 1994. Climatic impact of the A.D. 1783 Asama
> (Japan) eruption was minimal: Evidence from the GISP2 ice
> core. Geophysical Research Letters 21:2365-2368.
>
> Hempel, L., and F. Thyssen. 1992. Deep radio echo
> soundings in the vicinity of GRIP and GISP2 drill sites,
> Greenland. Polarforschung 62:11-16.
>
> Palais, J.M., M.S. Germani, and
> G.A. Zielinski. 1992. Interhemispheric transport of
> volcanic ash from a 1259 A.D. volcanic eruption to the
> Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. Geophysical Research
> Letters 19:801-804
>
> Palais, J.M., K.C. Taylor, P.A. Mayewski, and
> P.M. Grootes. 1991. Volcanic ash from the 1362
> A.D. Oraefajokull eruption (Iceland) in the Greenland ice
> sheet. Geophysical Research Letters 18:1241-1244.
>
> "DATA DESCRIPTION:
>
> This file contains the volcanic sulfate record in the
> GISP2 core on the Meese/Sowers timescale.  Each sample
> is approximately bi-annual for the last ~12,000 years
> with a consistent increase in the time covered by each
> sample to around 50 years/sample at 110,000 years ago.
>
> The volcanic sulfate record is derived by applying an
> empirical orthogonal function (EOF) analysis on the entire
> glaciochemical time series (Mayewski et al., 1997a).  EOF 5
> was found to explain 12% of the variance in the sulfate
> record, but it did not significantly explain the variance
> in any other chemical species.
>
> The excellent correlation in the EOF time
> series and the volcanic sulfate record
> for the last 9000 years, based on sulfate residuals over
> a robust spline (Zielinski et al.,1994a) indicates that
> EOF5 is an indicator of volcanic sulfate deposition over
> the last 110,000 years.
>
> AGE refers to the age in yr BP,
> as described above Total sulfate is the
> total measured sulfate concentration in ppb.
> Volcanic sulfate is the calculated total sulfate,
> based on emprical orthogonal function analysis (EOF
> 5). parameter 3:  Volcanic sulfate based on empirical
> orthogonal function analysis (i.e., EOF-5)"
>
> DATA:
>
> age (yr)        total sulfate (ppb)     volcanic sulfate
>
> 10999.74          117.26          59
> 11001.90          98.36          47
> 11006.94          163.56          93
> 11009.46          130.38          64
> 11011.98          70.20          5
> 11014.41          54.88          19
> 11016.84          86.08          14
> 11019.28          115.85          77
> 11021.24          63.95          12
> 11023.20          104.97          50
> 11025.16          55.51          0
> 11027.05          57.26          10
> 11028.94          107.30          40
> 11030.90          189.47          128
> 11032.86          60.88          16
> 11035.24          211.02          163
> 11037.48          80.17          30
> 11039.48          59.16          22
> 11041.64          120.43          44
> 11043.88          51.83          0
> 11046.12          54.25          3
> 11048.28          45.42          0
> 11050.26          71.78          12
> 11052.22          53.63          0
> 11054.18          65.07          25
> 11056.07          60.71          16
> 11057.96          52.52          0
> 11059.92          58.85          2
> 11061.95          60.11          11
> 11064.14          96.63          51
> 11066.61          178.73          120
> 11069.27          66.90          16
> 11071.84          73.48          16
> 11074.40          81.32          32
> 11077.06          72.76          26
> 11079.63          70.35          2
> 11082.15          69.62          27
> 11084.25          106.18          55
> 11086.28          83.81          25
> 11088.30          72.15          13
> 11090.40          59.78          0
> 11092.43          49.80          6
> 11094.45          55.00          8
> 11096.48          54.98          22
> 11098.40          43.29          0
> 11100.36          64.35          2
> 11102.25          45.23          0
> 11104.14          78.43          14
> 11106.03          39.12          0
> 11107.92          51.24          0
> 11109.95          60.60          19
> 11111.84          57.84          0
> 11113.66          29.55          0
> 11115.55          38.81          0
> 11117.44          41.43          0
> 11119.33          41.23          0
> 11121.22          57.21          6
> 11123.11          183.75          124
> 11125.00          80.09          13
> 11127.30          63.45          3
> 11129.59          47.29          0
> 11131.89          61.01          11
> 11134.18          51.09          3
> 11136.48          53.57          2
> 11138.77          78.24          25
> 11140.98          127.47          66
> 11143.28          78.99          29
> 11145.66          107.76          54
> 11147.95          112.08          55
> 11150.25          102.62          47
> 11152.46          123.66          76
> 11154.75          127.98          66
> 11157.05          133.70          59
> 11159.32          68.89          10
> 11161.48          61.01          0
> 11163.56          39.23          0
> 11165.72          54.82          13
> 11167.88          74.93          10
> 11170.04          74.68          0
> 11172.20          84.87          30
> 11174.28          81.48          23
> 11176.44          81.39          33
> 11178.60          86.56          39
> 11180.68          76.71          10
> 11182.84          87.93          34
> 11185.00          113.94          29
> 11187.08          100.16          33
> 11189.24          110.43          35
> 11191.35          164.17          118
> 11193.17          119.71          98
> 11195.06          106.62          52
> 11196.95          147.40          70
> 11198.77          86.10          0
> 11200.59          93.01          22
> 11202.48          70.90          1
> 11204.37          75.53          25
> 11206.28          97.85          41
> 11208.23          87.43          34
> 11212.28          91.40          47
> 11214.23          54.89          3
> 11216.18          49.45          3
> 11218.20          45.99          3
> 11220.24          71.86          16
> 11222.32          62.15          8
> 11224.40          68.59          17
> 11226.48          129.16          60
> 11228.64          66.44          12
> 11230.80          82.30          16
> 11232.88          221.17          145
> 11234.96          876.03          801
> 11236.98          44.35          0
> 11238.93          44.51          0
> 11240.95          51.16          1
> 11242.98          57.37          0
> 11244.93          75.69          20
> 11246.88          80.32          26
> 11248.83          87.59          38
> 11250.78          47.64          0
> 11253.07          40.56          0
> 11255.41          76.85          15
> 11257.75          84.62          25
> 11260.18          45.22          0
> 11262.61          229.03          175
> 11264.95          116.05          56
> 11267.29          46.71          0
> 11269.60          40.18          0
> 11271.81          35.68          0
> 11274.02          77.81          13
> 11276.23          55.45          0
> 11278.44          79.61          32
> 11280.65          39.30          0
> 11282.86          36.09          0
> 11284.98          53.37          0
> 11287.05          40.72          0
> 11289.08          50.78          9
> 11291.03          60.90          16
> 11292.98          52.71          15
> 11294.93          60.66          8
> 11296.88          63.05          3
> 11298.83          56.92          0
> 11300.78          52.55          0
> 11302.73          78.52          25
> 11304.68          90.98          30
> 11306.63          74.06          24
> 11308.58          106.65          25
> 11310.53          94.04          35
> 11312.48          115.86          46
> 11314.35          84.46          0
> 11316.26          111.68          43
> 11318.47          77.88          13
> 11320.68          86.49          17
> 11322.89          124.53          49
> 11325.10          67.77          3
> 11327.31          61.47          15
> 11329.52          108.49          32
> 11331.81          94.93          30
> 11334.08          102.02          44
> 11336.24          106.36          20
> 11338.49          105.52          27
> 11340.83          59.96          0
> 11343.17          65.70          0
> 11345.51          94.01          26
> 11347.76          70.12          0
> 11349.92          118.03          21
> 11352.43          83.50          15
> 11354.90          96.08          0
> 11357.37          79.99          0
> 11359.74          85.49          13
> 11362.12          64.73          0
> 11364.59          81.76          0
> 11367.06          59.25          0
> 11369.43          46.85          5
> 11371.81          59.51          0
> 11374.28          58.04          0
> 11376.75          65.13          0
> 11379.12          58.14          3
> 11381.50          97.24          21
> 11383.97          49.90          0
> 11386.44          87.38          12
> 11388.81          65.52          11
> 11391.19          66.07          0
> 11393.66          114.30          28
> 11396.03          109.30          21
> 11398.41          89.55          5
> 11400.88          60.45          7
> 11403.25          190.90          109
> 11405.63          151.10          78
> 11408.08          47.78          0
> 11410.08          96.71          18
> 11412.08          83.09          22
> 11414.16          57.15          0
> 11416.16          61.51          0
> 11418.16          59.04          0
> 11420.24          67.12          0
> 11422.24          68.96          10
> 11424.26          54.69          0
> 11426.38          87.64          22
> 11428.51          60.39          8
> 11430.72          63.10          0
> 11432.84          126.70          69
> 11434.97          61.80          13
> 11437.09          65.14          3
> 11439.22          115.40          23
> 11441.34          49.30          5
> 11443.47          86.39          0
> 11445.68          78.15          11
> 11447.80          64.27          0
> 11449.93          88.69          13
> 11452.05          93.21          19
> 11454.18          52.19          0
> 11456.30          52.57          0
> 11458.40          45.70          0
> 11460.40          48.59          0
> 11462.40          59.82          0
> 11464.40          53.08          0
> 11466.40          35.21          0
> 11468.40          45.55          0
> 11470.40          41.47          6
> 11472.40          46.90          0
> 11474.38          46.94          0
> 11476.25          71.81          12
> 11478.05          24.21          0
> 11479.93          37.33          0
> 11481.80          45.94          0
> 11483.68          52.27          0
> 11485.55          39.01          0
> 11487.43          38.00          0
> 11489.30          27.41          0
> 11491.10          41.15          0
> 11492.98          45.22          0
> 11494.85          51.24          0
> 11496.73          33.31          0
> 11498.60          56.36          13
> 11500.40          261.50          176
> 11502.28          64.20          0
> 11504.16          39.66          0
> 11506.08          43.07          0
> 11508.16          45.91          0
> 11510.16          49.18          4
> 11512.00          55.10          0
> 11514.00          38.48          0
> 11516.00          40.70          0
> 11517.92          34.41          10
> 11519.92          40.84          0
> 11522.16          35.15          0
> 11524.23          42.88          0
> 11526.75          59.47          4
> 11528.82          36.85          0
> 11530.98          49.46          0
> 11533.14          29.72          0
> 11535.39          45.90          0
> 11537.64          40.39          0
> 11539.80          36.49          0
> 11541.96          36.41          0
> 11544.21          33.55          0
> 11546.46          58.30          2
> 11548.62          43.21          0
> 11550.78          35.63          0
> 11553.03          33.26          0
> 11555.10          96.37          25
> 11557.19          51.13          2
> 11559.40          44.79          0
> 11561.44          35.03          0
> 11563.57          31.96          0
> 11565.69          48.73          0
> 11567.73          82.07          15
> 11569.77          134.10          79
> 11571.90          31.98          0
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> 11575.98          35.97          0
> 11578.10          23.67          0
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> 11582.18          42.16          0
> 11584.22          44.65          0
> 11586.26          80.77          12
> 11588.30          42.68          0
> 11590.38          38.21          0
> 11592.76          36.57          0
> 11595.13          35.38          0
> 11597.41          42.21          0
> 11599.69          47.11          0
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> 11604.25          47.00          0
> 11606.53          32.11          0
> 11608.81          57.99          0
> 11611.09          84.91          32
> 11613.37          49.68          0
> 11615.65          68.13          0
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> 11620.21          53.93          0
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> 11624.77          47.02          0
> 11626.96          71.54          0
> 11629.20          54.53          0
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> 11648.40          81.65          0
> 11650.80          87.31          0
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> 11676.75          157.30          0
> 11680.05          136.20          0
> 11683.35          102.10          0
> 11686.60          83.32          0
> 11689.80          128.90          0
> 11693.00          119.30          0
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> 11956.80          211.49          35
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> 11974.80          164.92          9
> 11978.40          181.77          38
> 11982.00          256.71          104
> 11985.60          130.40          0
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 10:58:41 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:32 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: pole shift
In-Reply-To: <39ec87db.322909288 mail.midiowa.net>
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

> >In some primitive societies, people held rituals because they feared that
> >if they did not, the seasons would stop working. You might say they feared
> >the days would "forget" to grow longer.
>
>I agree.  If the seasons had never "stopped working," then why would
>there be any concern that they might stop working some time?  The only
>answer is that they DID STOP at some point in racial memory.

Season often stop working. In tropical climates, monsoon rains sometimes 
fail to come. In New York state in the 19th century a late freeze in July 
devastated the crops. Of course the actual number of hours of sunlight per 
day does not vary, but everything else about the natural cycles does, and 
the variations often lead to catastrophe.

Someone here objected that "ordinary" famines do not last long folk tales 
or "racial memory" (which I doubt exists). If this is true, it is because 
famines and plagues were so common, they blended together in people's 
memories. However, the most dramatic examples did become the stuff of 
myths, folklore and nursery rhymes such as "Ring around the Rosy," which is 
about the black plague. I suspect children made the black plague into a 
game a few years after it ended, perhaps even when it was happening, and 
they are still playing that game 650 years later. In Japan, a few months 
after WWII, children were playing war games, pretending to be caught in 
train derailments on trains so crowded people were crushed to death in 
them, and pretending to be American GIs consorting with prostitutes 
("pan-pan-asobi"). People, especially children, are remarkably sanguine 
about terrible events. I suppose they have to be, to survive. Perhaps this 
habit of downplaying catastrophe or making a game of it causes some modern 
readers to imagine it would take an extraordinary event like a pole shift 
to disrupt life in ancient times, but my impression is that life was 
frequently disrupted or destroyed by ordinary natural forces -- which today 
merely inconvenience us -- and there is no need to postulate anything worse.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 12:33:29 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:51:28 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Diagoras and Bacon on superstition
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>[This message triggered an unsubscribe. Maybe the Vortex Daemon is tired of
>ancient history?]
>
>I noted that ancient authors disproved many superstitions. I had in mind
>Diagoras, in a famous exchanged described by Francis Bacon:
>
>46. The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid down,
>(either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure it
>affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and confirmation;
>and although more cogent and abundant instances may exist to the contrary,
>yet either does not observe or despises them, or gets rid of and rejects
>them by some distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than
>sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions. It was well answered by
>him [Diagoras] who was shown in a temple the votive tablets suspended by
>such as had escaped the peril of shipwreck, and was pressed as to whether
>he would then recognise the power of the gods, by an inquiry; "But where
>are the portraits of those who have perished in spite of their vows?" All
>superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology, dreams,
>omens, retributive judgment, or the like; in all of which the deluded
>believers observe events which are fulfilled, but neglect and pass over
>their failure, though it be much more common. But this evil insinuates
>itself still more craftily in philosophy and the sciences; in which a
>settled maxim vitiates and governs every other circumstance, though the
>latter be much more worthy of confidence. Besides, even in the absence of
>that eagerness and want of thought, (which we have mentioned,) it is the
>peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved
>and excited by affirmatives than by negatives, whereas it ought duly and
>regularly to be impartial; nay, in establishing any true axiom, the
>negative instance is the most powerful.
>
>- Novum Organum, 1620, and still not understood 380 years later!
>
>- Jed

***{Absolutely correct and on target. Modern man is on average no better or
smarter or more interested in the truth than men were in ancient times, and
it is merely an effect of the same self-delusion described above--the
preferring of the positive over the negative--that causes most men to
believe otherwise. --MJ}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 12:36:27 2000
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:06:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: pole shift
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>"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:
>
>> Edmund Storms wrote:
>>
>> According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
>> sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
>> when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
>> these records.
>>
>> Hi Ed,
>>
>> Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
>> covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
>> Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?
>>
>> Jack Smith
>
>Hi Jack,
>Thanks for the information.  The question I have is, "How much volcanic
>sulfate
>would be expected from a pole shift"?  Clearly, no region stands out except in
>the 11000 year time frame.  If we assume the pole shift actually occurred near
>12000 years, 11000 years is close enough.  On the other hand, how much
>volcanic
>activity would be expected before the actual shift?  Unfortunately, this
>single
>piece of evidence to too ambiguous to prove or disprove the event.

***{It sure looks conclusive to me! As has been pointed out previously, the
Earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere. That means its equatorial
circumference is greater than that of any of the great circles that pass
through the poles. Further, superimposed on that, there is a sort of
ballooning out of the southern hemisphere, that results in an overall form
somewhat resembling that of a pear. And, finally, superimposed on that, we
have the Earth's various tidal bulges, which are trivial by comparison to
the other deviations from a perfect, spherical shape.

To be specific, the semimajor axis (i.e., the equatorial radius) of the
Earth is 6,378,137.0 meters, while the semiminor axis (i.e., the polar
radius) is 6,356,752.314 meters. (See
http://www.geocities.com/archaeogeo/geodesy.html#figure, for example.) That
means the equator bulges out a distance of 21,383 meters, or 21 km (13.29
miles), farther than the poles. Result: in order to rotate the poles from
latitude 90 degrees to latitude 0 degrees, it will be necessary to open up
cracks in the crust, and the total width of those cracks, taken together,
will be 13.29 miles. If you think you can do that without triggering
incomprehensibly vast volcanic eruptions all over the world, then the only
remaining relevant inquiry would be ask you exactly what it is that you
have been smoking. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Regards,
>Ed Storms

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 12:37:05 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Test
Resent-Message-ID: <"qs0dl2.0.N34.HZAxv" mx1>
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>Test message, please ignore. I was accidentally u-n-s-u-b-s-c-r-i-b-e-d,
>for some reason.
>
>- JR

***{It worked!!!!!!!!!!!! Yee-ha!!!!!!!!! :-) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 13:14:31 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016165822.00a23a80 pop.mindspring.com><39EB3915.8818DC2A@ix.netcom.com><39E0E989.78D73448@ix.netcom.com><00ad01c032fe$649ff360$0c6cd626@varisys.com><v04011702b60a4d37a2dc@[207.8.127.28]><v04011700b60abda86c7c@[207.8.127.28]><3
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> Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
> > >In some primitive societies, people held rituals because they feared
that
> > >if they did not, the seasons would stop working. You might say they
feared
> > >the days would "forget" to grow longer.
> >
> >I agree.  If the seasons had never "stopped working," then why would
> >there be any concern that they might stop working some time?  The only
> >answer is that they DID STOP at some point in racial memory.

I haven't been following this thread, so maybe I'm out of line here, but
isn't there a 23,000 year precession of the pole, and a 40,000 year wobble,
which causes the pole to periodically align with the Earth's orbit, which
would stop the seasons from occurring every so often. I thought this was
argued as the reason for the periodic glacial periods in Earth's history, as
summers would not occur in the northern latitudes to melt the winter's
snowfall during these periods.

Craig


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 13:42:15 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: ESL's
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Some months back, we were discussing some plasma devices, and the subject of
electrets came up.  For many of you, this subject was old hat, but for me,
it was new.  I had heard of electrets, of course, but I didn't really know
how to make them.  At the time, I had an URL for a pretty terrible
description on how to make them, but it was a stoneage method involving a
charcoal bricquet, as I recall.  I just ran across a really good source of
info for the do-it-yourself types that describes making Electrostatic
Loudspeakers.

Many of the concepts involved are similar to what Roth, and Jean-Louis have
been working on, so this is useful stuff in more ways than one.  This
actually qualifies as a mini-goldmine, as it has all the circuit diagrams
for the amplifiers, drivers, cross-overs, etc., many well written articles
on the theory of operation, and some very good design and construction tips
from real experts.  There are also many different approaches to both the
electronics designs, and the speaker designs, so you can tailor things to
your own needs and what you have available.

These things are not trivial projects, nor are they as cheap as I would like
them to be, but for what you get in terms of quality and novelty, they are
pretty darn cheap.  They are well within the skill and price range of many
of you builders on this group.  The URL below is for a page that has some
articles on it on this subject about midway down the page.  If you follow
the link back to the homepage, and scroll down past the enormous number of
ads, there is another complete section devoted entirely to ESL's.

http://members.fortunecity.com/ciuffoli2/

I just finished reading the article entitled Compact Integrated
Electrostatic/Transmission Line - part 1 and 2 from Speaker Builder 1/1990,
which is about 2/3 of the way down the above mentioned page, and it was an
excellent introduction tutorial as well as a very complete set of
instructions for building.  The guy that does the website is Italian, and he
has some of the stuff available in Japanese.

Enjoy!

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 14:22:21 2000
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Subject: Re: IR laser source
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>Can anyone give me a decent source for an infrared laser?
>A friend has some theories to try out about the ionization properties of an 
>IR beam.
>
>Thanx
>Merlyn

Hi Merlyn,

The most comprehensive collection of stuff on lasers that I've seen is Sam
Goldwasser's FAQ at:

http://fribble.cie.rpi.edu/~repairfaq/sam/lasersam.htm

I'm pretty sure it has a list of suppliers.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 15:24:02 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >"Taylor J. Smith" wrote:
> >
> >> Edmund Storms wrote:
> >>
> >> According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
> >> sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
> >> when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
> >> these records.
> >>
> >> Hi Ed,
> >>
> >> Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
> >> covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
> >> Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?
> >>
> >> Jack Smith
> >
> >Hi Jack,
> >Thanks for the information.  The question I have is, "How much volcanic
> >sulfate
> >would be expected from a pole shift"?  Clearly, no region stands out except in
> >the 11000 year time frame.  If we assume the pole shift actually occurred near
> >12000 years, 11000 years is close enough.  On the other hand, how much
> >volcanic
> >activity would be expected before the actual shift?  Unfortunately, this
> >single
> >piece of evidence to too ambiguous to prove or disprove the event.
>
> ***{It sure looks conclusive to me! As has been pointed out previously, the
> Earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere. That means its equatorial
> circumference is greater than that of any of the great circles that pass
> through the poles. Further, superimposed on that, there is a sort of
> ballooning out of the southern hemisphere, that results in an overall form
> somewhat resembling that of a pear. And, finally, superimposed on that, we
> have the Earth's various tidal bulges, which are trivial by comparison to
> the other deviations from a perfect, spherical shape.
>
> To be specific, the semimajor axis (i.e., the equatorial radius) of the
> Earth is 6,378,137.0 meters, while the semiminor axis (i.e., the polar
> radius) is 6,356,752.314 meters. (See
> http://www.geocities.com/archaeogeo/geodesy.html#figure, for example.) That
> means the equator bulges out a distance of 21,383 meters, or 21 km (13.29
> miles), farther than the poles. Result: in order to rotate the poles from
> latitude 90 degrees to latitude 0 degrees, it will be necessary to open up
> cracks in the crust, and the total width of those cracks, taken together,
> will be 13.29 miles. If you think you can do that without triggering
> incomprehensibly vast volcanic eruptions all over the world, then the only
> remaining relevant inquiry would be ask you exactly what it is that you
> have been smoking. :-)

But Mitchell, no one is suggesting that the poles go to the equator.  The most
recent pole shift is proposed to result from a displacement of 2000 miles at the N
pole.  Other regions on the earth experienced no displacement.   You really need
to study the evidence before you jump to conclusions.   Hapgood takes this bulge
into account and, yes, volcanic eruptions occur in certain regions where the crust
is pulled apart and mountains are formed where the crust is pushed together.  Some
of these eruptions are underwater so that no dust gets into the atmosphere to be
deposited on the ice.   Clearly, the effect is nonuniform and very chaotic.
Reaching conclusion based on gross dimensions and extreme assumptions gets us
nowhere. Only the total physical evidence from many regions can give any insight.

Ed Storms


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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:48:02 CDT
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>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>***{It sure looks conclusive to me! As has been pointed out previously, the
>Earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere. That means its equatorial
>circumference is greater than that of any of the great circles that pass
>through the poles. Further, superimposed on that, there is a sort of
>ballooning out of the southern hemisphere, that results in an overall form
>somewhat resembling that of a pear. And, finally, superimposed on that, we
>have the Earth's various tidal bulges, which are trivial by comparison to
>the other deviations from a perfect, spherical shape.
>
>To be specific, the semimajor axis (i.e., the equatorial radius) of the
>Earth is 6,378,137.0 meters, while the semiminor axis (i.e., the polar
>radius) is 6,356,752.314 meters. (See
>http://www.geocities.com/archaeogeo/geodesy.html#figure, for example.) That
>means the equator bulges out a distance of 21,383 meters, or 21 km (13.29
>miles), farther than the poles. Result: in order to rotate the poles from
>latitude 90 degrees to latitude 0 degrees, it will be necessary to open up
>cracks in the crust, and the total width of those cracks, taken together,
>will be 13.29 miles. If you think you can do that without triggering
>incomprehensibly vast volcanic eruptions all over the world, then the only
>remaining relevant inquiry would be ask you exactly what it is that you
>have been smoking. :-)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >Regards,
> >Ed Storms
>
>[snip]
>
Hi Mitch,

using your numbers, the gross oblate spheroid is very nearly spherical... my 
calcs give that 21 kilometer difference as 0.33 percent of the mean radius.

meaning at the extremes, the semimajor and semiminor axes(sp) are within 
0.16 percent of being spherical.

21 kilometers sounds big, but putting it in proportion changes things a 
little.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 17 23:51:27 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:51:31 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:32 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>No one has more respect for the 
>abilities, knowledge and skills of ancient technologists and farmers than 
>I, but the fact remains, they did believe that rituals were effective. As 
>strange as it may seem to the modern mind, they believed that if they were 
>unable to perform a ritual on the equinox, nature might go haywire. 

If nature had never gone haywire, what would cause them to think that?

>They 
>saw the absolute regularity of the sun and stars, and thought this meant 
>the rituals must be performed exactly on schedule, too. 

If the sun and stars were absolutely regular, what could have caused
the ancients to link absolute regularity with sporadic disasters?  

I can understand rain dances, offerings to volcano gods, blessing
fishing fleets, etc.  But tying earthly disasters to events in the sky
makes no sense *unless there was an apparent connection.*

Ancient people were just as observant as we (probably more observant
than most people today), as evidenced by their hybridization of plants
and domestication of various animals.  If they were right about seeing
connections so they could develop plants and animals, what suddenly
makes them wrong about seeing connections between celestial events and
earthly disasters?

>They saw themselves 
>and other people as the focus of the universe. 
 
That's not entirely true.  Most of that focus comes from religions
derived from Judaism.  I don't recall, for instance, Buddhism saying
humans are the focus of the universe.  Nor do most aboriginal American
religions teach that, from my knowledge.

>They blamed crop failure and 
>illness on their own behavior or the actions of other people (witchcraft) 
>instead of impersonal forces beyond anyone's control.

Yes, they did.  But they didn't blame crop failure, etc. on celestial
events.  Illness, of course, is today more and more being seen as
behavioral effect, and certainly not due to impersonal forces beyond
an individual's control.

>> >revolution has not occurred. The ancient world view is indescribably alien
>> >to the modern mind. It is difficult for us to imagine how it permeated so
>> >many daily acts, habits and thoughts in daily life.
>>
>>Alien, yes.  But mostly logical based on what they had available to
>>use.
>
>Well, I would not call this mindset logical, since a simple experiment 
>would often prove they were wrong. 

Umm, are you saying the ancient Greeks (I know, rather modern compared
to some ancient cultures) simply believed things without trying
experiments?  I know that you know better.  But the same guys that
performed the experiments "believed" the info passed down to them
about ancient cataclysms (Atlantis, etc.).  I'm sure the Greeks were
just as critical of the cataclysm stories they heard as they were of
the facts that caused them to experiment.  

>It is understandable, deeply rooted, and 
>it survives in many people in the modern world. When people get sick, they 
>still blame themselves --

As they should.   :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:25:51 GMT
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Hi Jed,

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:32 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>> >In some primitive societies, people held rituals because they feared that
>> >if they did not, the seasons would stop working. You might say they feared
>> >the days would "forget" to grow longer.
>>
>>I agree.  If the seasons had never "stopped working," then why would
>>there be any concern that they might stop working some time?  The only
>>answer is that they DID STOP at some point in racial memory.
>
>Season often stop working. In tropical climates, monsoon rains sometimes 
>fail to come. In New York state in the 19th century a late freeze in July 
>devastated the crops. Of course the actual number of hours of sunlight per 
>day does not vary, but everything else about the natural cycles does, and 
>the variations often lead to catastrophe.

As I mentioned in another message, none of these events are easily
connected to celestial events.  Also, the events aren't widespread
enough to be a source of myths -- especially worldwide myths.  They're
recent events, things that happen every-so-often and cause a change
for a year or three, not permanent changes.

What was a permanent change was the flooding of parts of what was to
become England by the North Sea -- back in 1500 to 3500 BCE.  That was
major, but not much has come down to us in the way of myths (maybe
Ragnorak).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:33:24 GMT
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Hi Craig,

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:01:14 -0500, "Craig Haynie"
<cchaynie ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I haven't been following this thread, so maybe I'm out of line here, but
>isn't there a 23,000 year precession of the pole, and a 40,000 year wobble,
>which causes the pole to periodically align with the Earth's orbit, which
>would stop the seasons from occurring every so often. I thought this was
>argued as the reason for the periodic glacial periods in Earth's history, as
>summers would not occur in the northern latitudes to melt the winter's
>snowfall during these periods.

As I recall, the largest combined wobble is supposed to produce a 28
degree tilt.  The seasons would stop, of course, at a zero degree
tilt, which would put the entire North and South polar regions in a
perpetual sub-Arctic climate -- the sun would be on the horizon
continuously.  

I'm unaware of any studies that would show where the freeze line would
be at zero degree tilt.  But it sure wouldn't account for an ice-free
Siberia at the same time as an ice-covered southern Illinois.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:06:16 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <39f45947.442076171 mail.midiowa.net>
References: <39E0E989.78D73448 ix.netcom.com>	 <00ad01c032fe$649ff360$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <v04011702b60a4d37a2dc@[207.8.127.28]> <v04011700b60abda86c7c@[207.8.127.28]> <39E5EC5C.7A8A7DCB@centurytel.net> <39E62028.62B48E1B@ix.netcom.com> <39EA1A95.4A3C3D
98 centurytel.net>
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Hi Jack,

Thanks for the data.  It sure looks like volcanic activity took off
after about 11,400 BP.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:59:01 +0000, "Taylor J. Smith"
<tjs11 centurytel.net> wrote:

>
>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>According to Mandeville, the Greenland ice does show times of extreme
>sulfate concentration.  One such occasion occurs about 12500 years ago
>when the last pole shift is proposed to have occurred. I have not seen
>these records.
>
>Hi Ed,
>
>Enclosed is sulfate data from the "GISP2" Greenland ice core
>covering the years 11,000 Before Present (BP) to 13,000 BP.
>Does anyone see any evidence of a pole shift from this data?

Could be.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pole shift
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:01:18 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:28:52 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{While there is no law (not yet :-) against having "a thought," I hope
>that both you and Rick realize that these sorts of speculations are *not*
>scientific evidence, since we may just as reasonably speculate that these
>ancient beliefs arose out of the same sorts of irrationalism as, for
>example, the persistent belief in nonexistent dieties, or in miracles, or
>in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, or in astrology, or in psychic
>spoon bending, or in the notion that the government can save lives by
>violating property rights, etc. Result: such speculations are *in no way*
>sufficient to undercut the hard data that have been cited by myself and
>Jack, which seem to contradict Mandeville's hypothesis.
>
>To elaborate:
>
>(1) The data that I cited (see the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the
>page at http://www-grd.ucsd.edu/es160/lecture4/web6/node32.html) appear to
>contradict the Mandeville theory because the types of examples given in the
>discussion of his theory by you, Mike Carrel, and others, have been of much
>larger magnitude than the total movement shown in that graphic in the
>hundreds of millions of years prior to the present. 

Whoa, wait a minute.  The nice pictures of prior pole locations are
just as much speculation as anything you noted in your first
paragraph.  They are NOT scientific evidence!!  This is noted in the
cited page by the comment:

"Before we begin discussing applications of paleomagnetic poles, we
will first consider the ingredients of reliable poles. The generally
accepted criteria (see Van der Voo, Rev. Geophys., vol. 28, pp.
167-206, 1990) are based on common sense and the principles outlined
earlier in the course."

Please notice that they are based on "common sense."  IOW, a consensus
of opinion with a uniformitarian foundation.  Even then, the derived
pole locations approach the equator and don't "flip" by 180 degrees,
which is what is commonly assumed.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Subject: Re: A Concise History of Vacuum Coating Technology
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I worked with Don Mattox (1963-65) .

A good primer on how to make metallized films etc.

 http://www.svc.org/HistoryofVac.html

Regards,   Frederick

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Kozima: CRFL News No. 17: ANS/ENS 11.12.00 10.10.00

Subject:  CFRL News in English No. 17
   Date:    Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:39:10 +0900
  From:    "Hideo Kozima," <cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu>
    To:     <cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu>

[Rich Murray:  Let me know if you want to be off this long private list,

which I will use about once a month for any reports that might be
substantial evidence for any cold fusion phenomena. I'm interested in:
M. McKubre et al., “Evidence of d-d Fusion Products in
Experiments Conducted with Palladium at Near Ambient Temperature”.
If anyone mails me copies of their research reports, I will do the best
within my limited competence to critique them fairly and draw attention
to them on this list.  I suggest investigating the current wave of
studies
that are searching for theoretically possible additional dimensions of
space, which could strongly increase the gravitational interaction at
distances less than 75 microns, and thus change the physics of
neutrons in the crystal lattice:
http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1998/split/pnu381-1.htm]

Rich Murray  Room For All  rmforall earthlink.net
1943  Otowi Road   Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 USA
505-986-9103   505-920-6130 cell
*********************************************************

Dear Readers of CFRL News,
Attached is the News No. 17 from Portland State University where I have
been one month already.
Prof. J. Dash is out to attend the Russian Conference on
Cold Nuclear Transmutations  at Sochi and will back soon with a lot of
new information from Russia where have
been done many characteristic works
on Cold Fusion.
Hoping further success in your work on Cold Fusion, i.e. "nuclear
reactions and accompanied events in solids
with high density hydrogen isotopes in ambient radiations".
Hideo Kozima
--------------------------------------------------
Visiting Professor of Physics at Portland State University
Professor Emeritus at Shizuoka University
Dr. Hideo Kozima
Office: Physics Department, PSU,
P.O. Box 751, Portland, Oregon 97207-0751
Tel. 503-725-4222, Fax. 503-725-3888
E-mail. cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu
Home: Ione Plaza #712, 1717 Park Av., Portland, Oregon 97201
Tel. 503-525-7316
Permanent Address:
Cold Fusion Research Laboratory (CFRL)
Yatsu 597-16, Shizuoka, 421-1202, Japan
E-mail, cf-lab.kozima nifty.ne.jp
CFRL web-site; www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~kunihito/cf-lab/index.html
------------------------------------------------------

CFRL English News No.17 (October 10, 2000)
Cold Fusion Research Laboratory Prof. Hideo Kozima.

   This is CFRL News (in English) No. 17 translated from
Japanese version published for friend researchers of Cold Fusion
Research Laboratory directed by Dr. H. Kozima, now in
Portland State University. The e-mail address in PSU is
cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu.
In this issue, there are following items.
1) A new paper has been submitted to Fusion Technology
and its content is explained.
2) I will give a lecture ”Thermal Neutrons and Their Influences
on Nuclear Reactions in Solids” at Wednesday Seminar of Physics in PSU,
3) E. Storms has written a Review on CF
in Infinite Energy No. 32 (2000)
including critiques on TNCF model,
4) Some topics about CF Session in ANS,
5) Recent works done by J. Dash and his collaborators.

1) H. Kozima, “Neutron Bands in Metal Hydrides -
Effects of Occluded Hydrogen on
Nuclear Reactions in Solids” (Submitted to Fusion Technology)
   The new idea in this paper is an inter-nuclear interaction between
lattice nuclei through neutron bands mediated by occluded hydrogen
isotope nucleus. There are several experimental data showing
non-zero probability of a proton (deuteron) wave function at
adjacent lattice nuclei and therefore nuclear interaction between
the proton and the nuclei. Some numerical calculations are
proceeding in our laboratory.

H. Kozima “Thermal Neutrons and Their Influences on Nuclear
Reactions in Solids” (to be presented at Wednesday Seminar
of Physics Department at PSU)
Abstract
 There are several remarkable discoveries in science and
technology related with properties of neutrons.These include
the discovery of such exotic nuclei as He-10, Li-11, Na-32
and so on in nuclear physics, and  techniques to control neutrons
such as a neutron trap and a neutron guide which are used to
investigate properties of neutrons.
   We have worked with thermal neutrons in solids and found
some new and  interesting features not noticed before. The
most important fact is the formation of  band structure in the
energy spectrum of neutrons in solids. A simplified calculation
of the band structure gave the result that there is a strong
localization of thermal neutrons in the boundary region of
crystals with appropriate structures. The results of the calculation
also suggest that a new state of neutrons, a neutron drop,
which is an aggregate of a large number of neutrons and a
few protons, occurs in the boundary region.
   These new properties of neutrons have a strong influence
on interactions of particles in the solids where aggregates of
neutrons occur. In the surface region of crystals, high density
neutrons localized in the region will react with nuclei and
nuclear reactions confined in this region should be observed
as new elements and particles emitted from the crystal. The
new state of crystals with high density neutrons free from
nuclear binding will open a new science which should be
called solid state-nuclear physics and give rise to new
technology using  nuclear reactions in solids.

3) E. Storms, “A Critical Evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann
Effect: Part 2” Infinite Energy 32, 52 (2000)
“ --- Kozima proposes that trapped thermal neutrons catalyze
the cold fusion reaction (TNCF Model). In an attempt to
identify a source of such neutrons, he has proposed formation
of metastable neutron clusters of various sizes. Several
questions have not been answered, including exactly what
conditions cause the clusters to interact with the surrounding
nuclear environment, why individual neutrons are not emitted
from the material during such interaction, and why the clusters
do not produce “normal” nuclear products. In addition, his
efforts to compare the concentration of these neutrons to the
observed effects is doomed to failure because nuclear activity
is highly localized and impossible to relate to the measured
volume of the samples, a variable used in his model.”
   E. Storms shows his misunderstanding about the nature
of a phenomenological model. It should be discriminated
the model and its basis clearly. Then, he should give his
evaluation of the TNCF model at first and its basis next.
He criticizes the TNCF model as a whole taking up only the
“several questions”. As we know well, the work to investigate
the basis of the model has just started and is going on. It is too
early to criticize its foundation at present stage of investigation.

4) 2000 ANS/ENS International Meeting with cooperation from
NEI. November 12 - 16, 2000, “Nuclear Science and Technology:
Supporting Sustainable Development World Wide”
Technical Sessions, A session on CF is included as follows.
“Low Energy Nuclear Reactions - I”
Wednesday, November 15, 1:00 p.m. ( 8 papers)
“Low Energy Nuclear Reactions - II”
Thursday, November 16, 8:30 a.m. ( 7 papers)
“Low Energy Nuclear Reactions - III”
Thursday, November 16, 1:00 p.m. ( 7 papers)
The meeting will be held at Marriott Wardman Park Hotel,
Washington, D.C. and room charges for a room is $174.00
by “the discounted meeting rate ” for Single and Double.
Many presentations seem to duplicate with those presented
at ICCF8 and I have decided to skip the Meeting this time.
  To know general tendency of the presentation, I will cite
here titles of papers on experimental works:
J. Dufour et al., “Experimental Observation of Nuclear Reactions
in Palladium and Uranium”
V. Violante et al., “Recent Results from Collaborative Research
at ENEA-Frascati on Reaction Phenomena in Solids”
M. McKubre et al., “Evidence of d-d Fusion Products in
Experiments Conducted with Palladium at Near Ambient Temperature”
A. Takahashi et al., “Radiation-less Fission Products by Selective
Channel Low-Energy Photo-Fission for A > 100 Elements”
M. Miles et al., “Excess Heat and Helium Production in
the Palladium-Boron System”
T. Mizuno et al., “Heat and Products Induced by plasma Electrolysis”
G. Goddard et al., “Characterization of Uranium Co-Deposited
with Hydrogen on Nickel Cathodes”
G. Miley et al., “Advances in Thin-Film Proton-Reaction Cell
Experiments”

5) Recent works done by John Dash and his collaborators.
J. Warner and J. Dash, “Heat Produced during the Electrolysis
of D2O with Titanium Cathodes” Proc. ICCF8 (to be published)
Abstract
Cold rolling 20appears to increase both the amounts of excess
heat and reproducibility obtained by electrolysis of acidified D2O
with titanium cathodes. Unexpected elements such as chromium
and iron were detected on the surfaces of cathodes after electrolysis.
The presence of chromium was confirmed by neutron activation analysis.
G. Goddard, J. Dash and S. Frantz, “Characterization of Uranium
Co-deposited with Hydrogen on Nickel Cathodes”
Proc. ANS/ENS Meeting 2000 (to be published)
Summary
Previously, it has been reported that nuclear transmutation reactions
are accelerated when radioactive elements are subjected to low-level
electric fields during electrolysis of aqueous electrolytes.
Our research investigated the co-deposition of
U3O8 and H on Ni cathodes, using
an acidic electrolyte and a Pt anode. Then the radiation emitted by the
electroplated U3O8 was compared with radiation emitted by
unelectrolyzed U3O8 from the same batch. Radiation measurements
were made over a period of about two months with a matched pair
of Geiger-Mueller (GM) detectors using 10 mg of each samples.
 Consecutive three-minute counts were taken for 15 hours each day
and stored in a computer. The results are shown in Fig. 1.
The electroplated U3O8 initially produced about 2900 counts in three
minutes (4-17-00). This rose sporadically in steps to about 3700
counts in three minutes on 5-11-00, and it remained relatively constant
at this level until the GM measurements ended on 6-8-00. The
unelectrolyzed U3O8 from the same batch emitted radiation at a
much lower rate, about 1250 counts in three minutes, and is remained
almost constant over the entire period of measurement.
   After the GM measurements, a gamma ray spectrometer was
used to measure radiation from the same two, 10 mg electroplated
and unelectrolyzed U3O8 samples. The net integral of the same
36 peaks for the same measurement time (25 hours) gave 53,000
counts for the electroplated sample and 31,000 counts for the
unelectrolyzed sample. Alpha and beta measurements are underway
for both samples.
   The cathodes are characterized before and after electrolysis
using a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and an energy
dispersive spectrometer (EDS). The unelectrolyzed U3O8 is
also analyzed using the SEM and EDS. Fig. 2 shows SEM
micrograph of typical surface structure of uranium electroplated
on a nickel cathode. The donut-like features appear to be the
result of microscopic surface eruptions which produced voids
surrounded by raised circular rims. Fig. 3 shows an EDS spectrum
from electroplated U3O8 on a nickel cathode. In addition to oxygen
and uranium, cesium, iron and nickel are present. A peak at 16.36 keV
which overlaps with a uranium peak at 16.44 keV is tentatively
labeled as fermium. Mass spectrometer and x-ray diffraction studies
are also underway.(Figures are omitted.)
******************************************************






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On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> [This message triggered an unsubscribe. Maybe the Vortex Daemon is tired of 
> ancient history?]

Very weird.

Only the subject line can do anything.  But vortex-L-request is the
address for commands.

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:44:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ESL's
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On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> I just ran across a really good source of
> info for the do-it-yourself types that describes making Electrostatic
> Loudspeakers.

As a hobby the ESLs have suddenly taken off.  Once there was just one page
about them, and when that guy took it offline back in 1995 he emailed it
to me so it wouldn't be gone forever:

  http://www.amasci.com/esloud/eslhwto.html 



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 11:45:45 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Barth notes more Mills irregularities
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Aaron Barth seems to be quite the resourceful reference locator!

At 10:30 AM 10/17/0, ab1097 disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote:

>
>Let me point out that I've also noticed that page 340 of Mills's book
>is copied almost word-for-word from Fang & Ruffini (Basic Concepts in
>Relativistic Astrophysics, 1983, World Scientific), pages 6-8.  Also,
>a very substantial fraction of the text of Mills's pages 363-369 is
>copied virtually verbatim from Fang & Ruffini pages 52-60.  This
>includes Tables 23.1 and 23.2, and Figure 23.1 which looks like it's
>been scanned in directly from Fang & Ruffini's book.  Now, on p. 362
>Mills says that his derivation of the precession of perihelion
>"follows Fang & Ruffini".  But what he's actually done is to simply
>copy several pages of text directly, rather than to follow or
>paraphrase F&R's arguments, and this is inexcusable.  He's not just
>copying the equations, he's copying explanations, interpretations, and
>all in the original author's wording with only the most minor changes.
>Mills has even copied verbatim a typographical error made on page 60
>of Fang & Ruffini, where F&R misspell one author name in a reference
>(Fomalont & Sramek).

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 15:37:33 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:26:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Barth notes more Mills irregularities
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>Aaron Barth seems to be quite the resourceful reference locator!
>
>At 10:30 AM 10/17/0, ab1097 disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote:
>
>>
>>Let me point out that I've also noticed that page 340 of Mills's book
>>is copied almost word-for-word from Fang & Ruffini (Basic Concepts in
>>Relativistic Astrophysics, 1983, World Scientific), pages 6-8.  Also,
>>a very substantial fraction of the text of Mills's pages 363-369 is
>>copied virtually verbatim from Fang & Ruffini pages 52-60.  This
>>includes Tables 23.1 and 23.2, and Figure 23.1 which looks like it's
>>been scanned in directly from Fang & Ruffini's book.  Now, on p. 362
>>Mills says that his derivation of the precession of perihelion
>>"follows Fang & Ruffini".  But what he's actually done is to simply
>>copy several pages of text directly, rather than to follow or
>>paraphrase F&R's arguments, and this is inexcusable.  He's not just
>>copying the equations, he's copying explanations, interpretations, and
>>all in the original author's wording with only the most minor changes.
>>Mills has even copied verbatim a typographical error made on page 60
>>of Fang & Ruffini, where F&R misspell one author name in a reference
>>(Fomalont & Sramek).
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

***{I have no way to verify any of Aaron Barth's statements. However, even
after assuming that the absence of quotation marks is not due to a simple
error, several people in the HSG group have maintained that this sort of
wholesale copying without attribution is of no importance. It is their
position that the copied material is just ordinary, mainstream science that
has been paraphrased in a thousand textbooks, rather than original or
ground-breaking work. Result: they urge us to ignore the alleged copying,
and focus on Mills' original theories.

In my view, however, plagiarism is important because of what it says about
the guilty party--to wit: it says that he lacked the ability to rewrite the
material and express it in his own words. After all, it is trivially easy
to present a passage in your own words, *if it is a passage which you
understand*. It is only if it is over your head that you would not dare to
change a thing. That's why plagiarism, in virtually all cases, is
tantamount to a confession of ineptitude.

Moreover, if plagiarism is used to create a false impression of scientific
genius, in order to extract funds from investors, then the possibility of
securities fraud rears its ugly head as well.

Hopefully a perfectly innocent explanation of all this exists, and will
soon emerge.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 19:01:45 2000
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MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
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Contact:  Mary Hardin

IMAGE ADVISORY                                   October 16, 2000

30,000 NEW MARS IMAGES ARE NOW AVAILABLE ON THE WEB

     The imaging team of NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft 
has doubled the number of Mars pictures available to the public 
with the release of a new archive of red planet pictures totally 
slightly more than 30,000 images.

     The archive contains all the pictures that were taken by 
Mars Global Surveyor from September 1999 through February 2000 
and includes the images that were taken to search for the Mars 
Polar Lander spacecraft.  No evidence of the lander was ever 
seen.  The archive also covers the period of south polar cap 
retreat through southern spring and into early summer. This 
includes changes observed on the south polar cap's "Swiss cheese" 
surfaces, among others.

     The full gallery of 30,000 images is available at 
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ , http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs .  
A sample of images is available at 
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/oct_2000_sampler/ 
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs .

     Mars Global Surveyor was launched on November 7, 1996 and 
entered orbit around Mars on September 12, 1997.  The spacecraft 
has been systematically mapping the red planet since March 1999. 

     Mars Global Surveyor is managed by the Jet Propulsion 
Laboratory for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C.  
The camera system was built and is operated by Malin Space 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 20:40:44 2000
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http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 20:55:41 2000
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http://electrochem.cwru.edu/estir/inet.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 22:24:59 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: ESL's
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Bill writes:
>As a hobby the ESLs have suddenly taken off.  Once there was just one page
>about them, and when that guy took it offline back in 1995 he emailed it
>to me so it wouldn't be gone forever:
>
>  http://www.amasci.com/esloud/eslhwto.html 

Whoa Nellie!  Another mini-goldmine!  It's funny how you read an article,
and think you understand everything well enough. You read another, and get
additional info or a better insight on things that are actually quite
significant.  I actually like this article better than the Sanders one,
mainly because it is written in more down to earth language, but it also has
a more detailed electronics section, and it has all the appropriate HV
safety considerations, which was something that I forgot to mention when I
posted before.  Sanders gave zero HV handling instruction or safety warnings
in his article.  I'll have to read some more on this.  Interesting also to
note that T. Townsend Brown was into this.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 18 22:39:44 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:38:17 +0100
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Bjerknes Revisited - Acoustophoresis
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>To my fellow Vortexians;

This was on the SVP discussion group.

I wonder if frequencies might be useful in inducing either fusion or fission.

It was reported that John Keeley was able to levitate large weights 
with frequencies.


>Reply-To: svpvril egroups.com
>Subject: [svpvril] Bjerknes Revisited - Acoustophoresis
>
>Here is an updated rework of Bjerknes original discoveries demonstrating
>attraction and repulsion using harmonic and enharmonic frequencies:
>
>http://www.acoustics.org/134th/brooks.htm
>
>--
>Regards,
>Dale Pond
>Delta Spectrum Research
>http://www.SVPvril.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 19 06:24:49 2000
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Acquire a 55 gallon drum and wrap an 8 inch wide strip of 15 pound
roofing felt around the middle. Over this, clamp a 6 inch wide band 
made from 16 gauge sheet metal using nylon bolts about 2 inches long,
making sure the flanges of the metal band do not touch.

Fashion an approximately 2.0 ohm load resistance (12 volt  light bulbs or such)
and attach between one of the band flanges and the drum.

Hook a pulse generator (square wave) between the other flange and the drum
capable of 12 volts amplitude   ~ 6.0 amperes with pulse repetition rates variable from 
a few Hz to 10 MHz or so.

Hang the apparatus on a "fish scale" suspended from the ceiling or an apple tree limb,
and apply the pulse power.

If nothing happens, shake an apple from the tree and kick back and enjoy it.

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 19 16:06:22 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: TESLA: MASTER OF LIGHTNING -- PBS DOCUMENTARY!!! (fwd)
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see below

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:40:28 EDT
From: NPproducer aol.com
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: TESLA: MASTER OF LIGHTNING -- PBS DOCUMENTARY!!!

Tesla: Master of Lightning will be airing in December 12, 2000 on PBS (check 
local PBS listings for exact date and time).   Tesla: Master of Lightning, 
directed by Robert Uth and produced by Phylis Geller of New Voyage 
Communications, will be the first major documentary on Nikola Tesla, arguably 
the most important inventor of the 20th Century.   

Attached you will find a press kit with all pertinent information on the 
documentary, as well as contact listings for actor Stacy Keach, voice of 
Tesla.

Please forward this email to all parties you think may have an interest in 
this fascinating subject and visit our site at:

http://www.newvoyagepublishing.com/tesla.html
<A HREF="http://www.newvoyagepublishing.com/tesla.html">Nikola Tesla</A>   
(link for aol users only)

Here you will also find pictures and press kits.  This is indeed a momentous 
occasion!

Also, check out PBS.org and search for Tesla.   On "Tesla Comp" you will see 
a test page that will be ready at the end of November.

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/index.html
<A HREF="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/index.html">Tesla Comps</A>    (link for 
aol users only) 

See the excitement coming!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 20 14:20:49 2000
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 20, 2000
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:01:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Oct 00   Washington, DC

1.  UPDATE ON BOB: HE'S BACK, ORNERY AS EVER!  I have resumed
responsibility for What's New.  However, I will still rely
heavily on APS staff, since my right side requires extensive
rehabilitation.  I am particularly grateful to Mike Lubell for
filling in and I am also grateful to the hundreds who have taken
the trouble to send me their best wishes, though it's unlikely
that they will receive a personal response.  The most, uhhmmmm,
interesting suggestion came from Tom Valone, who was fired from
the Patent Office in the wake of last year's Conference on Free
Energy.  He expressed hope that I would use the quiet time of
recovery to reflect on my malicious conduct.  In this "non-local
universe," Valone explains, the tree was simply a messenger.  I
tried, but my attempt to access universal knowledge conjured up
pictures of bamboozled investors.  What am I doing wrong?

2.  THE WEST WING: YOU SAY PSYCHIC, I SAY PHYSICIST.  This week's
episode of the popular TV drama opened with the sacred words
"It's called the theory of everything."  It's delivered by a guy
who is bedridden, recovering from an accident, and barking orders
to his office staff.  (Gee, that sounds familiar.)  He tells the
White House spokeswoman to lead with the announcement that
physicists have answered the big question.  She strides into the
press room, stares confidently at the bloodthirsty Washington
press corps and says "Psychics at Cal Tech and Fermi Lab..."

3.  CELL PHONE HAZARD: WHO LET THE DOGS OUT?  It looked like the
fear-lobby was finally caged.  The public scare over EMFs was
dissipating as a result of definitive studies that showed no link
between power lines and cancer (WN 4 Jul 97).  But, the calm was
only temporary.  The fear-lobby is now aggressively scaring the
public over the dangers of cell phones.  In response, a panel of
experts in Britain was recently convened to examine the issue. 
The panel recognized that there is no compelling evidence that
cell phones cause cancer.  And, in fact, the low-levels of
radiation don't even provide any physical mechanism to induce
cancer.  Nevertheless, the panel recommended a "precautionary
approach" regarding microwaves.  It's deja mu.  Before Paul
Brodeur wrote Currents of Death and started the "prudent
avoidance" power line hysteria (WN 25 Aug 89), he wrote The
Zapping of America, which warned of the dangers of microwaves. 
Since World War II, background radiation levels had risen to 100
million times the "natural" background, he howled.  Yawn.  In
terms of health risks, that's still a totally insignificant
level.  An industry is now popping up to protect consumers from
their own cell phones.  Products include headsets and speaker-
phone attachments "to keep the radiation away".  Fine, but what
about all that pesky second-hand radiation?  Maybe someone should
encase the phones in a cubicle and put them on street corners.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 20 16:12:24 2000
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Here is an update for vortexians who might have been following
the "torsion field" technology threads some time ago - a hot
topic then but fading fast from favor, or so it would seem.

There was a promising company called Pinnacle Oil (PSFD) that
invested heavily in a SQUID based scalar field detector, "our
proprietary, quantum physics-based, stress field detection or
"SFD" remote- sensing airborne survey technology... to quickly
and inexpensively identify and high-grade oil and natural gas
prospects." They elected not to patent the device and of course
were very tight-lipped about the details.

In short, they have still made no major discovery, no profit, no
positive cash flow even, and are burning bucks at a $2million/
yr. clip. They recently changed their name to NXT "to better
reflect... blah, blah, blah" ... you can read about it at:

http://www.nxtenergy.com/ch1/index.htm

The section on "our business" has some interesting technical
tidbits.

If there is any bright side to the story, it seems that a good
deal of the money they have raised is coming from employees
exercising their stock options. Given that such insider buying
is usually an indicator of good things to come...

Jones

BTW the Pinnacle story doesn't really say much about the
relevance of torsion fields, which I for one believe will
someday prove to be a major field of science. We just don't
quite know how to handle, or even describe, a  fourth spatial
dimension yet...

BTW #2 - more than a few Microsoft employees were exercising
their options a year ago when the stock was up above $115 and
big Bill was $25 billion richer...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 21 03:11:35 2000
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A lot of good stuff here that can apply to other gas discharge phenomena.

 http://www.neonware.com/docs/mgifl.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 21 04:55:31 2000
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Subject: Re: Electrodeless Discharge in Fluorescent and Incandescent Bulbs
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The General Electric research into Hg absorption by the fluorescent tubes
states that the Argon is at a pressure of ~ 2.5 Torr and the Hg is at a pressure
of ~ 6.0 millitorr.
The Argon-Nitrogen fill in incandescent light bulbs is at ~0.66 atmospheres
(~ 500 Torr) and placing these bulbs in a microwave oven and "nuking" them
will cause them to explode. These bulbs will also visibly fluoresce when rubbed
with a cloth in a darkened room.

With an ionization potential of ~ 15.8 ev for Ar, ~ 10.8 ev for Hg, and ~ 14.4 ev
for N2, it is hard to imagine that there are any free electrons/ions around
in the fill gases.

Yet the fluorescent tubes will visibly fluoresce in a darkened room just by 
being handled or rubbed. Or, when pulsed with a 1.5 volt potential, picoampere
current pulses are observed with a standard 4 foot-40 watt bulb.

OTOH, if one assumes that Light Leptons created by solar UV-EUV in the
atmosphere have become attached to the ~ 1 % Argon in the atmosphere
are carried over into the Argon fill gas, they would explain the free charges.

It is well known that a 1.02 Mev photon striking  a particle will create an
Electron-Positron Pair, but, QED also allows that there are other "resonances"
allowing for (+/-) pair production:

n* 1.02 Mev   (x-ray)

n* 7433 Kev  (x-ray)

n* 54.4 ev    EUV

n* 0.396 ev   (UV- infrared)

This poses the question, are the LLs generated "in situ" in the bulbs, or are they
carried over from the atmospheric gases?

And, do they exist?  :-)

Regards,  Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 21 19:44:25 2000
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 electrons 8.31.00
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: update.500
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:07:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: AIP listserver <physnews aip.org>
To: physnews-mailing aip.org


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 500  August 31, 2000   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

NUCLEAR ENERGY USED TO EXCITE ATOMS.  A
multinational team of physicists has observed for the first time a
process in which the energy freed up by a nucleus relaxing to a
lower state is used to excite an electron in the surrounding atom to a
higher energy state.  Normally atomic and nuclear phenomena are
separate, mainly because the energies typifying atomic transitions
(an electron moving from one quantum state to another) is measured
in electrons volts (eV) or less, whereas analogous nuclear transitions
are typically on the order of thousands or millions of eV.  But for
some heavy ions, which have been relieved of many their electrons
(making the attraction between the nucleus and the remaining
unshielded electrons all that much more powerful), the spacing
between atomic states can actually exceed the spacing between
nuclear states.  In the case of a Bordeaux-Gif sur Yvette-Darmstadt-
Orsay-Manchester-Caen-Stanford experiment (Jean-Francois
Chemin, Center for Nuclear Studies at Bordeaux-Gradignan,
chemin cenbg.in2p3.fr, 011-33-55-712-0874) conducted at the
GANIL accelerator in France, tellurium atoms, with 47 or even 48
electrons removed, are smashed into a target.  In these collisions,
energy from the nucleus serves to promote a deeply bound electron
(in the 1s electronic, or "K shell" state) into a barely bound
"Rydberg" orbit.  This observation has extraordinary implications. 
It means that energy can pass resonantly between the nuclear and
electronic parts of the atom by a resonant process similar to that
which operates between an inductor and a capacitor in an LC circuit. 
Furthermore, this transfer of energy is suspected to play a role in the
anomalous lifetime of certain nuclear species; thus the concept of
nuclear lifetime, normally thought to be immune from atomic
effects, has to be modified to take into account charge states of the
atom.  If this is true then inside stars, where atoms often exist in an
ionized state, the lifetime of various nuclear species might well be
affected by this process of internal conversion between atomic
states, thus modifying the chain by which elements are synthesized
in the stellar environment.  (Carreyre et al., Physical Review C, 1
Sept; see also Japanese work on this subject, Kishimoto et al.
Physical Review Letters, 28 August: Select Articles.)

BRAIDED LIGHT.  An intense beam of laser light, traveling
through a nonlinear optical medium, will alter the index of refraction
in its vicinity.  Physicists at UCLA have calculated that when two
such beams travel in close, parallel lines through a plasma, they can
braid around each other (see figure at
www.aip.org/update/graphics).  In other words   an effective light-
light attraction occurs because of nonlinear reactions in the plasma. 
UCLA scientist Chuang Ren (310-794-4457, ren physics.ucla.edu)
says that such a braiding effect might be useful in optical steering
applications and, in nature, might occur when intense photon fluxes
filament as they  emanate from supernovas and powerful celestial
gamma ray sources.  Experimental studies are about to proceed  at
UCLA and at the Instituto Superior Tecnico in Portugal.  (Ren et al.,
Physical Review Letters,  4 September 2000; Select Articles.)

CRYSTAL GROWTH STARTS FLAT.  Using an atomic-force
microscope, researchers at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
have produced the first sequence of molecular-scale images of the
very earliest stages of crystal growth.  Peter Vekilov (256-824-6892,
peter cmmr.uah.edu) and Siu-Tung Yau studied how crystal
growth was triggered  in a solution that was supersaturated, i.e., one
that contains more of a dissolved compound than it can usually
accommodate.   Although the highly saturated solution contains the
sphere-shaped protein apoferritin, they discovered a surprise: the
crystal nuclei grow in a flat, raft-like shape, rather than the
spherical
shape that theory expected because of the protein's round shape. 
They also determined that the crystal nucleus's "critical size" is
between 20 and 50 molecules.  This is the size the nucleus must
possess before it triggers the growth of a larger crystal. (Yau and
Vekilov , Nature, 3 August 2000; www.aip.org/physnews/graphics.)

WOMEN IN PHYSICS.  Girls now account for half of high school
physics students in the US, but in general, participation of women in
physics decreases with the years. In 1993, for example,  girls
represented two fifths of high school physics students; five years
later women accounted for only one fifth of physics bachelor's
degrees.  The percentage of women PhDs in physics and
engineering (about 13%) lags behind the percentages for math
(25%) and chemistry (31%), and further still behind biology and
medicine.  (For more information, including lists of the top women
physics bachelor granting universities, see the AIP report "Women
in Physics, 2000"; www.aip.org/statistics)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 22 12:11:35 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrodeless Discharge in Fluorescent and Incandescent Bulbs
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
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At 5:51 AM 10/21/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>With an ionization potential of ~ 15.8 ev for Ar, ~ 10.8 ev for Hg, and ~
>14.4 ev
>for N2, it is hard to imagine that there are any free electrons/ions around
>in the fill gases.
[snip]
>It is well known that a 1.02 Mev photon striking  a particle will create an
>Electron-Positron Pair, but, QED also allows that there are other "resonances"
>allowing for (+/-) pair production:
>
>n* 1.02 Mev   (x-ray)
>
>n* 7433 Kev  (x-ray)
>
>n* 54.4 ev    EUV
>
>n* 0.396 ev   (UV- infrared)
>
>This poses the question, are the LLs generated "in situ" in the bulbs, or
>are they
>carried over from the atmospheric gases?
>
>And, do they exist?  :-)


One means of possibly making this determination is by use of the Hall
effect.  Unfortunately the conventional approach to this requires the
making of a special tube, with lateral sensor electrodes implanted through
the sides of the bulb halfway down the tube.  However, the experiment might
be carried out using capacitive coupling at the Hall effect sensor
electrodes in the midpoint of the tube - provided the bulb is driven by a
high enough frequency current.  Unfortunately the Hall effect potential is
very small.  An alternative approach is to break the filament at the ends
of a flourescent tube, as you have done in the past Fred, and then use the
two separate electrodes at the end of the tube to measure the Hall effect.

The experiment would consist of driving a current back and forth down a
bulb located in a strong transverse magnetic field.  The Hall effect
sensors are then located othogonal to both the magnetic field and current
direction.

The voltage applied to the tube would be swept across a wide range.  If the
current is due to ions created from gas atoms in the tube, then the current
will be carried principly by electrons, since they are lighter.  Therefore,
the Hall effect will be sensed due to the imbalance in the charge carriers.
As the presence of light electrons is increased, via pair production, they
will carry an increased portion of the current, being much lighter.  The
effects of the appearance of the light leptons should be observed in a
stepwise function as more of the appropriate pair producing energy is
produced.  An alternative to sweeping the driving voltage is to use a tube
envelope that is transparent at the required energy level, and then sweep
external radiation energy to produce the pairs.

It is of interest that the Hall effect would not be expected to disappear
at the end electrodes - provided the idea that light electons can not
readily be conducted is correct.  The current interface for the light
electrons at the metal end electrodes would therefore be purely capacitive.
As the magnetic field drives light positrons to one side and light
electrons to the opposite electrodes at one end of the tube, the electrons
in the external wires connecting the two electrodes could be expected to
slosh back and forth to balance the net charge difference at each electrode
surface. Again, using high frequency is key, so that the capacitive
coupling will pass enough current through the small surface area of the
metal electrodes to be measured.  If the current is being carried principly
by ordinary electrons, then the Hall effect would be similar, but the
potential smaller because the electrons move right on through the wire,
thus the potential available to measure would be smaller.  Perhaps this
effect could be used to distinguish between light and heavy electrons in
the tube.  See Fig. 1.


       End of flourescent tube
 .............................
                             .               ^
                   C1        .  TP1       R4/    TP4    C3     R3      AC
         o---------||------------o------\/\/\/----o-----||---\/\/\/-----o
            | R1         |   .            /     |    |                 TP3
            ---\/\/\/-----   .                  |    |
B-field X                    .              ^   |    |   R6
                   C2        .           R5/    |    --\/\/\/-----o Ground
         o---------||------------o-----\/\/\/----
            | R2         |   .  TP2      /
            ---\/\/\/-----   .
..............................
   Glass envelope


          Fig. 1 - Schematic diagram of end of flourescent tube


Let C1, C2, R1 and R2 represent the intrinsic values of the metal
electrodes, out to the external test points TP1 and TP2.   Let R4 and R5 be
small variable resistances which we assume for the moment to be set to
zero.  For light leptons, R1 and R2 are nearly infinite, while for ordinary
electrons R1 and R2 are nearly zero.  For both charge types the
capacitances can be assumed to be  identical, because the current through
them is carried by heavy electrons, and because for the heavy electrons the
bypass resistance is zero, so there is no current trough C1 and C2.
Similarly, R3-R5 and C3 have their assigned values in either case, because
all the current there is carried by heavies.

Since AC is being used, a 10 Meg or 100 meg impedence would be expected
across TP1 and TP2 when the test probes from an oscilloscope are attached.
The test probes connected to TP1 and TP2 should be isolated from ground,
and the difference taken as the test signal,  or a special voltage
diffential circuit should be used to sense the Hall effect as a potential
differential across TP1 and TP2.

R4 and R5 have to be large enough that the Hall potential shows up across
TP1 and TP2.  The magnetic field imposed in this case would be from the
viewer toward the schematic, i.e. "into the page."   It can be determined
if a Hall effect potential is being observed by removing or reversing the
magnetic field.  If the polarity of the signal with respect to the power
signal is reversed upon magnetic field reversal, then the Hall effect is
being observed.

Hopefully the ratio of resistances R4/R5 will not have to be exactly 1 to
clearly see the Hall effect, but including a very low resistance vernier
pot with center tap to TP4 and end leads to R4 and R5 might be a good idea.

Since C1 and C2 are very small values, it seems good to include a low
capacitance coupling C3 to the power at TP3.  This is to even the score
with regard to light lepton and heavy lepton overall impedence of the power
leads.  R6 to ground is a high impedence resistor provided to prevent
voltage drift of the two electrodes with respect to ground.

A positive result would likely be observed in the form of a step function
change in the Hall effect with increased potential or increased incident
energy.

If most of the current is carried by light leptons, then the overall
impedence of the circuit is increased, due to the coupling being capacitive
and through a small capacitance.  This is unfortunate, but the effect can
be minimized by making C3 as small as possible.

For mid-tube sensors, the hall effect disappears when current is carried
mainly by light leptons due to the current being carried equally by both
positive and negative charges.  However, at the end electrodes, the
particle being emitted due to previously clinging to the surface there will
not have an effect due to being deflected, because they have not had a
chance to be deflected and then detected.  Therefore the Hall effect will
be detectable even though carried by two charge types.  When the supply TP3
is positive, light electrons move toward the electrodes in Fig. 1 and light
positrons are repelled away.  The incoming light electrons are deflected
downward, making the bottom electrode (connected to TP2) negative with
respect to the top electrode (connected to TP1.)   When the supply TP3 is
negative, light positrons move toward the electrodes in Fig. 1 and light
electrons are repelled away.  The incoming light positrons are deflected
upward, making the top electrode (connected to TP2) positive with respect
to the bottom electrode (connected to TP1.)  The outgoing charges should
have a nominal Hall effect.  In net effect, half wave rectification is
taking place to the extent of the Hall potential.  Each test point should
have a half-wave rectification signal, and the potential between TP1 and
PT2 should look like a fullwave rectified version of TP3.

There is a problem with the concept in that the electrode with the largest
Hall potetnial in the prior phase will have the most charge on it.  One
means of exploring this effect is to make the frequency high enough that
the release of held light leptons preceeds in time the arrival of the
incoming lights from the other side.  The effects can then be clearly
delineated from the resulting waveforms.

The rate of manufacturing the light leptons would have to exceed the
collsion/annihilation rate that occurs as species of opposite charge pass
each other in the tube.

Does any of this seem like it might work?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 22 13:35:30 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:33:51 EDT
Subject: Re: AIP Update #500: transfer of energy from nuclear reactions to atomic  ele...
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In a message dated 10/21/00 10:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rmforall earthlink.net writes:

<< It means that energy can pass resonantly between the nuclear and
 electronic parts of the atom by a resonant process similar to that
 which operates between an inductor and a capacitor in an LC circuit.  >>

I met Rich Murray in New Mexico.  This is very good material.  Sometimes both 
Rich Murray and Ron Kita come up with some real good stuff.

I can reward my Constants of the Motion paper based on this input.  When a 
condensate is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one mega hertzmeter 
the condensate is reinforced to the point where the collective energy of the 
macro state is in the 10 of thousands electron volts.

Thank you Rich

Frank Znidarsic

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 22 14:11:22 2000
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References: <v01530502b6187308e0d8 [12.21.208.182]>
Subject: Re: Electrodeless Discharge in Fluorescent and Incandescent Bulbs
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:07:21 -0700
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Horace wrote:

> At 5:51 AM 10/21/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> [snip]
> >With an ionization potential of ~ 15.8 ev for Ar, ~ 10.8 ev for Hg, and ~
> >14.4 ev
> >for N2, it is hard to imagine that there are any free electrons/ions around
> >in the fill gases.
> [snip]
> >It is well known that a 1.02 Mev photon striking  a particle will create an
> >Electron-Positron Pair, but, QED also allows that there are other "resonances"
> >allowing for (+/-) pair production:
> >
> >n* 1.02 Mev   (x-ray)
> >
> >n* 7433 Kev  (x-ray)
> >
> >n* 54.4 ev    EUV
> >
> >n* 0.396 ev   (UV- infrared)
> >
> >This poses the question, are the LLs generated "in situ" in the bulbs, or
> >are they
> >carried over from the atmospheric gases?
> >
> >And, do they exist?  :-)
>
>
> One means of possibly making this determination is by use of the Hall
> effect.  Unfortunately the conventional approach to this requires the
> making of a special tube, with lateral sensor electrodes implanted through
> the sides of the bulb halfway down the tube.  However, the experiment might
> be carried out using capacitive coupling at the Hall effect sensor
> electrodes in the midpoint of the tube - provided the bulb is driven by a
> high enough frequency current.  Unfortunately the Hall effect potential is
> very small.  An alternative approach is to break the filament at the ends
> of a flourescent tube, as you have done in the past Fred, and then use the
> two separate electrodes at the end of the tube to measure the Hall effect.

Good point, Horace, but, I think a "Bean Shooter" approach using a glass tube
about a meter long (attached to a vacuum chamber) with an electrode at the closed
end held at a high positive potential while the system is being evacuated so that the
negative LLs stay attached to it (they Cannot flow into the circuit because they are too large).
Then, apply a high negative potential to the electrode and two possible detection
schemes can be employed:

1, a time-of-flight to a detector circuit where t = distance/velocity.

Reasoning; The LLs may have a mass/energy of  up to 27.2 ev and since
Mrel = Mo[(Ek/Eo) + 1] =  [1-(v^2/c^2)]^1/2 at 27.2 ev accelerating
potential they will be moving at ~ 0.87*c or ~ 3.83 nanoseconds/meter.

OTOH,  the velocity of an electron, v = (2V*q/m)^1/2 = 3.1E6 meters/sec
or ~ 323 nanoseconds/meter at 27.2 ev.

2, visual detection on a phosphor-coated plate (concurrent with the above method)

Reasoning; The radius R swept in the ~ 0.5 gauss (~ 5E-5 Tesla) Geomagnetic Field
is R = Mrel*c/(q*B)  (ata few Kev)n LL coming out of the "Bean Shooter" will
be deflected by  the Geomagnetic Field onto a phosphor-coated plate, where
the scintillations can be observed. At the same accelerating energy an electron
would sweep a radius orders of magnitude greater.

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 22 16:47:42 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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 atomic  ele...
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/21/00 10:44:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> rmforall earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << It means that energy can pass resonantly between the nuclear and
>  electronic parts of the atom by a resonant process similar to that
>  which operates between an inductor and a capacitor in an LC circuit.  >>
> 

People who exclude the possibility of exciting the nuclei by an electronic process should think twice now.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 22 17:58:48 2000
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Subject: Re: pole shift
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>>racks in the crust, and the total width of those cracks, taken together,
>>will be 13.29 miles. If you think you can do that without triggering
>>incomprehensibly vast volcanic eruptions all over the world, then the only
>>remaining relevant inquiry would be ask you exactly what it is that you
>>have been smoking. :-)
>>
>>--Mitchell Jones}***
>>
>Cool; this sound like an event of appoliptic porportions, which is 
>exactly that the Biblical Paradigm says is going to happen. The with 
>of those cracks should be just enough for all the mountains to 
>disappear into. I suppose you all can quess where I got that idea.


Thomas


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 23 11:31:42 2000
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Hi Ross,

I remember that you explain electric charge as phase of the waves belong ether.

A new paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0006079) titled "A Physical Origin for Mass and Charge" by Erik Haeffner explain matter as condensed form of superposition of electromagnetic waves, show a diagram of relation of phases of superposed waves and 
the charge characteristic of the particle belong to.



Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 23 18:31:31 2000
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>A new paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0006079) titled "A Physical
>Origin for Mass and Charge" by Erik Haeffner explain matter as condensed

>physics/0006079 [abs, src, ps, other] :
>
>       Title: Correlation property of length sequences based on global
>structure of complete genome

the correct URL is http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0010050

>physics/0010050 [abs, pdf] :
>
>       Title: A Physical Origin for Mass and Charge
>       Authors: Erik Haeffner
>       Comments: 5 pages
>       Subj-class: General Physics
>
>       This article proposes a concept called Condensed Electromagnetic
>Radiation (CER) as the electromagnetic origin of mass particles. An
>overwhelming amount of experimental evidence is consistent with the CER
>concept as a fundamental explanation for the physical properties of mass
>particles. Among many others cited, two well-established physical
>phenomena offer especially compelling evidence: parametric down conversion
>of photons, and generation of leptons and quarks.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 02:54:22 2000
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Subject: Re: Stock Tank Hovercraft
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 03:51:20 -0700
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A seven foot (2.133 Meter) diameter steel stock watering tank Might serve as a
Hovercraft if these calculations are correct:

Wrap the outside of the tank with one layer of 4.0 mil (1.0E-4 meter) thick by
24 inch (0.61meter) wide Teflon sheet. 

Around this wrap a 20 inch (0.5 meter) wide 24 gauge sheetmetal band with
insulated tightening bolts so that the ends of the band do not touch.

Electrical Parameters:

The Characteristic Impedance Zo of this flat transmission line
 =  (thickness/width)* 377 = (1.0E-4/0.5)*377  ~ = 0.075 ohms.

The capacitance C = k*eo*area/thickness ~ = 2*8.85E-12* 6.7*0.5/1.0E-4
= 6.0E-7 farads.

Since Z = (L/C)^1/2 = 0.075 ohms,  L = (0.075)^2 * 6.0E-7 = 3.375E-9 henry

And propagation time t = (LC)^1/2 = 4.5E-8 sec, and  velocity v = 1/(LC)^1/2
equal 2.222E7 meters/second.

Calculated Lift = I * Tank Area * 30  (newtons)

With I = 50 amperes * (pi)r^2 tank area * 30 =  4,712 nt = 1,059 pounds.

Power Requirement:   50^2 * Z =  187.5 watts of square wave pulses
at a pulse repetition rate that should be about 3.1 MegaHz after Relativistic
Gamma Effects due to accelerated frames on the flat line and
around the tank, are taken into account.

Bon Voyage!    :-)

Regards,   Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 06:58:44 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Mills' Non-response
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As noted by Horace Heffner several days ago, it has been charged in the HSG
group by Aaron Barth, that Mills has lifted entire passages from various
physics textbooks, and has incorporated them into his book without any
indication that the words are not his. There are apparently no quotes
around the passages, and there is apparently no attempt to demarcate the
boundaries of the quoted material by means of statements such as, for
example: "The following paragraph is taken from Riley's *Quantum
Mathematics*." Instead, references are made to the source of the material,
but those references give no indication that the material has been lifted
*verbatim* from the sources. In essence, therefore, Aaron Barth has charged
Mills with plagiarism.

In response to Aaron Barth's revelations, a lively discussion was getting
underway in the HSG group, in which the issue was being clarified, and
others were sifting through Mills book with a fine-toothed comb, to see
what else they could unearth. However, at that point the moderator
intervened, killing the discussion "until Mills responds." Unfortunately,
Mills' "response," thus far, is summed up by the following:

"On several occasions even within this group, I have been accused of
misrepresenting QM or GR. My response is that it is presented unaltered
from standard sources such as popular textbooks."

Bottom line: there has been *no response* to the charge that the material
has been included *verbatim* in his book, in a manner that gives the
impression that he, Mills, is the author. And, of course, until he
responds, there can be no further discussion of the issue in the HSG group.

Amazing.

--Mitchell Jones

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Subject: Tsunami from Cumbre Vieja Volcano
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***{This post is a bit belated, since it required a fair amount of
research, and I have very little time for such things right now. Sorry for
the delay. (By the way: all calculative reasoning should be double-checked,
since I only ran these numbers once. Caveat emptor.) --MJ}***

>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> There is evidence that sudden viscosity "phase shifts" can occur for rocks
>> in motion in rock slides.  This evidence, if I recall correctly, was
>> obtained by analysis and simulation of rock run-outs from major rock
>> slides, i.e. the breakdown of large rock cliffs.  It was discovered that
>> vary large rock slides must have a very low vioscosity, similar to water or
>> even less than that, and sometimes can run-out for more than a mile.  I
>> don't know if any explanation has been found.  Sorry, I have no refs.
>> either.
>
>Speaking of rock slides, there's one brewing in the Canary Islands which
>could cause a massive tidal wave in the Atlantic:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_956000/956280.stm
>
>Terry

***{I read the article. The guy is claiming that a tsunami induced by the
collapse of the west flank of the Cumbre Vieja volcano (on Los Palmas in
the Canary Islands) would have an initial height of 2130 feet, and, after
crossing roughly 4000 miles of open water (the Atlantic ocean), it would
arrive at the east coast of the U.S. with a height of about 145 feet. That
seemed exaggerated to me, and so I made some reasonable assumptions, and
did a calculation, which follows.

The volume of the wave should be roughly equal to the squared height of the
wave times the circumference of the circle it makes as it moves out from
its point of origin, and the potential energy would be the volume times the
density times the value of g times the average height. If we assume that
the total energy of the wave and its velocity are constant, then the
potential energy is also constant. Result: letting r1 and r2 represent the
distance of the wave crest from its point of origin at two specific points
in time, h1 and h2 the corresponding heights, D the density of the water,
and g the acceleration due to gravity, we obtain: 2Ľr1(h1^2)(h1/2)Dg =
2Ľr2(h2^2)(h2/2)Dg, or, simplifying, r1(h1^3) = r2(h2^3). Thus if we assume
a height of 2130 feet at a distance of 1 mile from the point of origin, it
follows that the height in feet at a distance of 4000 miles would be h2 =
[(r1/r2)^(1/3)](h1) = {[(5280/(5280)(4000)]^1/3}(2130) = 134.2 feet.

What the above calculation would seem to imply is that this is a very
dangerous situation, exactly as the authors of the above article said.

However, despite having done that calculation, I still remained
unconvinced. As we discovered a month or so ago (in connection with the
discussion of the possibility that the Kursk--the sunken Russian sub--might
have detonated its nukes), mind-bogglingly gigantic amounts of energy are
required to produce large tsunamis. Thus I decided to compare the energy of
the wave to the energy available from the collapse of the volcano, to see
if the energy required to raise up a wave of that size was, in fact,
available. That calculation went as follows:

(1) Since F = ma and E = Fd, it follows that E = mgd (note: d is the
distance moved parallel to the force, F), and so the approximate potential
energy of the wave would be the volume (ft^3) times the density
(slugs/ft^3) times g (ft/sec^2) times the average height (ft):

[2Ľr(h^2)](D)(g)(h/2) = Ľr(h^3)(gD) = Ľ(5280)(2130^3)(32)(1.947) =
9.99x10^15 ft-lbs.

(2) The hypothesis is that the west flank of the Cumbre Vieja volcano
collapses, generating the tsunami in question, so it follows that the
potential energy of the material in the west flank, in its present
configuration, must be sufficient to accomplish that effect. But is it?

Based on the contour map at http://obswww.unige.ch/~davignon/lpmap1.jpg and
the reading I have done about it, the Cumbre Vieja volcano is in the form
of a ridge that runs north-to-south, with multiple craters along the top.
Since the Caldera de Taburiente at the north end of the island is 10 km in
diameter, that gives us a scaling factor for the horizontal measurements,
and on that basis we can conclude that the average width of the base of the
left flank of Cumbre Vieja is also about 10 km. (Assuming it extends all
the way down to the water line.) Its average height is about 1.8 km, its
length is about 13 km, so we obtain a volume of roughly (1/2)(10)(1.8)(13)
= 117 km^3, or 1.17x10^17 cm^3. Assuming a density of 5.3 gm/cm^3 (e.g.,
hematite, which is an iron ore), that gives a mass of 6.2x10^17 gms. Since
the gravitational force on each gram is 980 dynes, the total force is
6.077x10^20 dynes. Now the center of mass is going to be less than halfway
up the ridge, since it tapers toward the top, but let's be very generous
and assume it is halfway up. In that case, it is .9 km, or 90,000 cm above
sea level. Result: the potential energy is 5.47x10^25 dyne-cm (ergs), which
is equivalent to 4.03x10^18 ft-lbs.

Conclusion: the potential energy available in the west flank of the Cumbre
Vieja volcano, if it were to essentially liquify and, thus, collapse down
to the water line, would in fact be more than sufficient to produce a wave
of the required magnitude. Since my overly generous assumptions yielded 3
orders of magnitude more energy than was needed to produce a 135 foot
tsunami on the east coast of the U.S., it would seem to follow that, had I
tried to be more conservative, I would still have confirmed the
calculations of the person who was quoted in the article.

Nevertheless, after having done these *very rough* calculations, I still
did not believe this result. I find it wildly implausible that the collapse
of a volcano 4,000 miles from the eastern seaboard could wipe out roughly
half the population of the U.S. Therefore, I continued to search for a
fallacy in the reasoning, and eventually I began to focus on the overall
layout of the island, and what it implies.

If you will look at the much older, extinct volcano at the north end of the
island (Cumbre de los Andenes), you will note that at some time in the
distant past--probably millions of years ago--the southwest flank of that
crater collapsed. And you will also note that the structure of that extinct
volcano  is much larger, and much taller, than the Cumbre Vieja.
Specifically, Cumbre de los Andenes has a height of 2426 meters as opposed
to 1949 meters for Cumbre Vieja. What this would seem to tell us is that
Mother Nature has done a test, and has determined that these particular
types of volcanic materials can support their own weight when stacked to a
height of 2426 meters--which means: Cumbre Vieja is unlikely to collapse
until it reaches a height of 2426 meters, which is likely to take several
million more years of periodic eruptions. In confirmation of this
conclusion, I would also note that the ridge crest of Cumbre Vieja is 1.8
km high, and 10 km from the coast, which means: it ain't very steep, to put
it mildly. (If S is the slope, then tan S = 1.8/10, and S = 10.2 degrees.)
Result: there is simply *no way* a collapse of this ridge could ever make
its way to the coast of the island. The hypothesis, when sufficiently
clarified, becomes ridiculous.

The question is, why did the persons who originated this particular Chicken
Little scenario not clarify it to that point? The answer, in my opinion, is
this: they are typical government funded "scientists," and, as such, they
recognize that their flow of funds will cease unless they continue to scare
the hell out of us.

--Mitchell Jones}***

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A Delta flight originating in Atlanta has been quarantined in
Boston after a passenger began bleeding from his eyes.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/bos/news/stories/news-20001024-113926.html

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:59:28 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:26:34 -0500:

Hi Mitchell,

As far as I can see, your analysis contains at least three serious flaws.

1) You only take into account the height above the water line (if I'm not
mistaken), while in fact any falling debris will fall all the way to the
bottom, however deep that is.

2) You appear to do a calculation based on a full circle wave, while in fact
a semicircle might be more appropriate, as the island itself prevents half
of the circle from forming. IOW the real wave will be twice as energy dense,
because it is only half the length.

3) Collapsing mountains have been known to travel as much as 20 km across
country. The mechanism which makes this possible appears to be a layer of
air and rocks trapped under the sliding mass, which acts as a combination
hovercraft and "wheels", reducing the friction between the mass of the
slide, and the surface.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 15:30:07 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Any way you slice it, "Big Oil" isn't friendly toward Cold Fusion 
and/or Alternative Energy Technology.

www.algore.com  or www.georgewbush.com 

Go Figure.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick


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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:02:51 PST7BST 
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On 24-Oct-00, Frederick Sparber, wrote:
>Any way you slice it, "Big Oil" isn't friendly toward Cold Fusion 
>and/or Alternative Energy Technology.

>www.algore.com  or www.georgewbush.com 

>Go Figure.   :-)

Well, Frederick, I lurked this list, for as long as anybody, here,
and I've seen any CF, yet.

The free market, rulez :)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp roshi.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Politics and Cold Fusion/Alternative Energy

Chuck Davis wrote:


> On 24-Oct-00, Frederick Sparber, wrote:
> >Any way you slice it, "Big Oil" isn't friendly toward Cold Fusion 
> >and/or Alternative Energy Technology.
> 
> >www.algore.com  or www.georgewbush.com 
> 
> >Go Figure.   :-)
> 
> Well, Frederick, I lurked this list, for as long as anybody, here,
> and I've seen any CF, yet.
> 
> The free market, rulez :)

You have or you haven't?   :-)

I attended a talk by Mike McKubre (SRI) a couple of weeks ago. The evidence
that he presented was quite convincing. Lots of work by others that ain't blowing
smoke either.

Regards,     Frederick
> -- 
>     .-.                                                               .-.
>    /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
>   /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
> -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
>     RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
>            \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
>             `-'                                               `-'
> http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
> http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
> http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 16:52:57 2000
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A couple of points.

> In response to Aaron Barth's revelations, a lively discussion 
> was getting
> underway in the HSG group, in which the issue was being clarified, and
> others were sifting through Mills book with a fine-toothed 
> comb, to see
> what else they could unearth. However, at that point the moderator
> intervened, killing the discussion "until Mills responds." 

Because he was on vacation last week and I did not think it fair to whip
everyone into a fervor without giving him a chance to explain himself.
 
> Bottom line: there has been *no response* to the charge that 
> the material
> has been included *verbatim* in his book, in a manner that gives the
> impression that he, Mills, is the author. And, of course, until he
> responds, there can be no further discussion of the issue in 
> the HSG group.

There has been discussion of the issue after Mills' "non-response"--you are
implying that this has been suppressed.  In fact, I think we have pinned him
down.  We'll see what he comes back with--hopefully it will be how he is
going to remedy the problem rather than further effort to defend what is
clearly inadequate referencing.  

Cheers,

Steven Florek
HSG Moderator

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Florek, Steven wrote:

<snip>

> We'll see what he comes back with--hopefully it will be how he is
> going to remedy the problem rather than further effort to defend what is
> clearly inadequate referencing.

I would suggest that Dr. Mills bring this issue to his personal counsel
before commenting further.

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 17:43:41 2000
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

<snip>

> I attended a talk by Mike McKubre (SRI) a couple of weeks ago. The evidence
> that he presented was quite convincing. Lots of work by others that ain't blowing
> smoke either.

I think we're hearing the death knoll for the oil industry.  It's too
flammable politically. 

That's why it's production limited, ATT.  You don't make capital
expenditures if new energy is on the horizon.

You create an artifical shortage, a little mid east war, and, voila, you
can charge $2 a gallon.  Oh, and consolidate and diversity like RJ
Reynolds.

Regards,

Jaded Cynic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 18:27:35 2000
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Terry Blaton wrote:
> > We'll see what he comes back with--hopefully it will be how he is
> > going to remedy the problem rather than further effort to 
> defend what is
> > clearly inadequate referencing.
> 
> I would suggest that Dr. Mills bring this issue to his 
> personal counsel
> before commenting further.

Lawyers!?  This is being blown out of proportion--no one is talking about a
need for legal action.  We're talking about background material from
textbooks, quoted verbatim with a single reference note rather than (more
appropriately) with an obvious header section saying that the material is
quoted.  Sometimes Mills has chosen the former method of attribution and
sometimes the latter--it's inconsistently edited.  He sometimes intersperses
this with his own commentary that makes it hard to distinguish between what
he's writing and what he's quoting.

But this should not be used to imply that Mills is intentionally engaging in
plagiarizing in order to take credit for other people's work.  Aaron Barth
is not implying that at all.  There is no reason to believe that there are
anything but good intentions and these are honest mistakes--Mills' work is
very original.  And I am not an apologist either--if you read HSG you know
that I have been been holding Dr. Mills' feet to the fire on this issue.

If lawyers were to enter the picture, then I would become suspicious that
there is something afoul.

Steven Florek
HSG Moderator

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 18:45:52 2000
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:43:01 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Politics and Cold Fusion/Alternative Energy
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At 7:53 PM -0700 10/24/00, Terry Blanton wrote:

>I think we're hearing the death knoll for the oil industry.  It's too
>flammable politically.

I'm trying to keep up with these conspiracy theories - is that death 
knoll related to the grassy knoll?   ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 24 22:43:35 2000
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:41:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Mills' Non-response
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>Terry Blaton wrote:
>> > We'll see what he comes back with--hopefully it will be how he is
>> > going to remedy the problem rather than further effort to
>> defend what is
>> > clearly inadequate referencing.
>>
>> I would suggest that Dr. Mills bring this issue to his
>> personal counsel
>> before commenting further.
>
>Lawyers!?  This is being blown out of proportion--no one is talking about a
>need for legal action.  We're talking about background material from
>textbooks, quoted verbatim with a single reference note rather than (more
>appropriately) with an obvious header section saying that the material is
>quoted.  Sometimes Mills has chosen the former method of attribution and
>sometimes the latter--it's inconsistently edited.  He sometimes intersperses
>this with his own commentary that makes it hard to distinguish between what
>he's writing and what he's quoting.
>
>But this should not be used to imply that Mills is intentionally engaging in
>plagiarizing in order to take credit for other people's work.  Aaron Barth
>is not implying that at all.

***{Aaron Barth hasn't come right out and said so, but I do think it is
implicit in what he has said. However, if you seriously doubt that, why not
ask him?

As to whether that would be a reasonable inference, it certainly seems so
to me, assuming the situation is as Aaron Barth has described it. After
all, Mills is an adult with an extensive academic background, not a child
in middle school. As such, he knows the rules: you make it clear which
words are not yours, and you give proper credit. If he knows the rules and
did not obey them, does it not inexorably follow that he sought to take
credit for the work of others? What other explanation can there be?

--Mitchell Jones}***

There is no reason to believe that there are
>anything but good intentions and these are honest mistakes--Mills' work is
>very original.

***{The fact that he has done some original work does not automatically
purge him of base motives. No law of nature requires that plagiarism be
solely the activity of individuals who have no accomplishments of their
own. All the plagiarist requires is a desire to appear to be more than he
really is, and a personal code of ethics that is lax enough to permit
deceit. --MJ}***

And I am not an apologist either--if you read HSG you know
>that I have been been holding Dr. Mills' feet to the fire on this issue.
>
>If lawyers were to enter the picture, then I would become suspicious that
>there is something afoul.

***{Unfortunately, once the specter of plagiarism has been raised, lawyers
do, in fact, tend to come into the picture. Mills has lots of enemies, and
I think it is very likely that they will communicate this situation to the
owners of the infringed copyrights in the most negative terms possible.
Thus he needs to be very careful. Anything he says can, and will, be used
against him. On the other hand, if he says something such as "On the advice
of counsel, I must refrain from commenting on this subject," then many of
his supporters are going to conclude that something crooked is afoot, and
that could hurt him financially. Thus his best course is probably to
respond publicly to these charges, but only after running those responses
past his attorney first, to make sure he doesn't inadvertently incriminate
himself. --MJ}***

>
>Steven Florek
>HSG Moderator

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

<snip>

> ***{Unfortunately, once the specter of plagiarism has been raised, lawyers
> do, in fact, tend to come into the picture. Mills has lots of enemies, and
> I think it is very likely that they will communicate this situation to the
> owners of the infringed copyrights in the most negative terms possible.
> Thus he needs to be very careful. Anything he says can, and will, be used
> against him. On the other hand, if he says something such as "On the advice
> of counsel, I must refrain from commenting on this subject," then many of
> his supporters are going to conclude that something crooked is afoot, and
> that could hurt him financially. Thus his best course is probably to
> respond publicly to these charges, but only after running those responses
> past his attorney first, to make sure he doesn't inadvertently incriminate
> himself. --MJ}***

Precisely, Mr. Jones.  Intent is not necessarily the issue here. 
I don't think Robert Parks (and others) would defer using this
against him.

It could also affect any planned IPO by BLP; so, the current
investors will need to be informed.

Regards,

Terry

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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> At 7:53 PM -0700 10/24/00, Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> >I think we're hearing the death knoll for the oil industry.  It's too
> >flammable politically.
> 
> I'm trying to keep up with these conspiracy theories - is that death
> knoll related to the grassy knoll?   ;)

As usual my aviarian friend has hit the nail with his head.  The
knoll *was* in Texas, the home of our oil industry.

The Albatross

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:30:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Tsunami from Cumbre Vieja Volcano
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:26:34 -0500:
>
>Hi Mitchell,
>
>As far as I can see, your analysis contains at least three serious flaws.
>
>1) You only take into account the height above the water line (if I'm not
>mistaken), while in fact any falling debris will fall all the way to the
>bottom, however deep that is.

***{Hi Robin. Yes, I only dealt with the height above the water line.
First, I was only concerned with the transverse wave, not with the
longitudinal (sound) wave, because it is the transverse wave that is going
to drown people when it reaches the U.S. Hence it is the potential energy
of the transverse wave above the water line that is relevant here. Second,
concerning the debris height, it is hard to say how much of the left flank
would be involved in any collapse that occurred, but it turned out that
there was plenty of energy available in the part above the water line to
get the job done, and so once that was apparent, I saw no need to make even
more generous assumptions. If there was a flaw in the reasoning, it had to
lie elsewhere. --MJ}***

>
>2) You appear to do a calculation based on a full circle wave, while in fact
>a semicircle might be more appropriate, as the island itself prevents half
>of the circle from forming. IOW the real wave will be twice as energy dense,
>because it is only half the length.

***{True, but I was overly generous in my assumptions about the amount of
material that would slide into the sea, so the two errors, taken together,
would tend to cancel one another. In any case, I was only interested in a
rough estimate. My purpose was to determine whether the potential for a
disaster would be real, if the hypothesized collapse did in fact occur.
And, as I'm sure you agree, a person near ground level in New York or Miami
is going to be just as dead if the tsunami is a mere 135 feet as he will be
if it is 270 feet. --MJ}***

>
>3) Collapsing mountains have been known to travel as much as 20 km across
>country.

***{Perhaps, but I'll lay long odds that no 10 degree slope has ever
supported a collapse, even if it is made of loose material such as dirt or
gravel. If you disagree, I challenge you to come up with a reference.
--MJ}***

The mechanism which makes this possible appears to be a layer of
>air and rocks trapped under the sliding mass, which acts as a combination
>hovercraft and "wheels", reducing the friction between the mass of the
>slide, and the surface.

***{There would be no way for air to get under the mass, so this is wrong.
I think you are probably harkening back to some article you read dealing
with pyroclastic flow, where the solid flank of a volcano with a blocked
vent bursts open due to the pressure of rising lava (e.g., the Mont Pelee
blast of many years ago), with a resulting sudden release of a vast amount
of magmatic material. In such cases, the sudden pressure drop causes the
particles to off-gas very rapidly. As a consequence, each particle within
the pyroclastic flow repels each other particle, eliminating friction
between particles and between the flow and the surface beneath it. Result:
a pyroclastic flow behaves like a very low viscosity liquid, and will move
down any slope that is available, even if it is less than 1 degree.
However, a pyroclastic flow is irrelevant to the present discussion, since
what has been hypothesized is a collapse of the west flank, not an
explosion. (I would add that an explosion due to upwelling magma forcing
its way through blocked or restricted lava channels would be preceded by a
measurable bulge in the side of the mountain, which has not been alleged.)
--MJ}***

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
>to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 06:36:29 2000
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:41:57 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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With 200 km range on one blow job:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 07:14:49 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Compressed Air Car Announced
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>With 200 km range on one blow job:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm
>
>Terry

***{Even if you believe the ridiculous mileage claims (120 miles per 30
cents of refueling cost), the thing is just the latest politically correct
death trap on wheels. (It only weighs a little over 1600 lbs.) I wouldn't
have one as a gift. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 14:51:20 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tsunami from Cumbre Vieja Volcano
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:48:42 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:30:42 -0500:
[snip]
>>3) Collapsing mountains have been known to travel as much as 20 km across
>>country.
>
>***{Perhaps, but I'll lay long odds that no 10 degree slope has ever
>supported a collapse, even if it is made of loose material such as dirt or
>gravel. If you disagree, I challenge you to come up with a reference.
>--MJ}***

You may well be correct. 
[snip]
>***{There would be no way for air to get under the mass, so this is wrong.

If a slide occurs at all, then it pushes air in front of it as falls. Some
of this air can become trapped under the slide, as shallower layers overtake
deeper layers, especially if there is a lot of material involved, in which
case there is no open path through the material for the air to escape.
BTW I mentioned "wheels" in my previous post. I think a better term might
have been "ball bearings".
Note, that I am not necessarily saying that this will happen, or even that
it is common, just that it can happen, and should be factored into the odds.

There may also be another possibility, though not being familiar with the
actual structure in question, this is just a guess. Perhaps half of the
entire island could slide, rather than just half of the volcano. More to the
point, since the volcano itself actually "starts" deep in the crust, and
only a small part is sticking out above the surface of the sea, perhaps the
entire island should be considered to be the volcano, and if it slides, then
half of the island may slide, from the sea floor up (though this probably
isn't what the author of the article intended). I suppose it depends on the
extent of the fault. If that were to happen, you would be looking at a lot
more material.
BTW I don't think you can make a clear distinction between transverse and
longitudinal waves in this case, as I think there will be a mixing of the
two at the beginning, i.e. there will be an energy exchange between them,
due to the complex non-linear formation process. (When water is put under
pressure, it tries to escape in all directions, and obstacles can convert
motion in one direction into motion in a different direction).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:25:04 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air Car Announced
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:22:26 +1100
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:13:14 -0500:
[snip]
>***{Even if you believe the ridiculous mileage claims (120 miles per 30
>cents of refueling cost), the thing is just the latest politically correct
>death trap on wheels. (It only weighs a little over 1600 lbs.) I wouldn't
>have one as a gift. --MJ}***
That's OK, when they offer it to you, send them around to my place. ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:25:49 2000
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:41:57 -0400:

>With 200 km range on one blow job:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm
>
>Terry
There is a web site at http://www.zeropollution.com/zeropollution/index.html
.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 26 02:50:08 2000
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Message-ID: <39F7FDD6.C875B946 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:48:06 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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CC: gravity inetarena.com, Modanese Giovanni <modanese@alpha.science.unitn.it>
Subject: Possible alterations of the gravitational field in a superconductor 
 (cond-mat/0010399)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0010399

Possible alterations of the gravitational field in a superconductor

Authors: G.A. Ummarino
Comments: LaTex2e, 10 pages, 3 figures
Subj-class: Superconductivity

In this paper I calculate the possible alteration of the gravitational field in
a superconductor by using the time-dependent Ginzburg-Landau equations (TDGL).
I compare the behaviour of a high-Tc superconductor (HTCS) like YBa_2Cu_3O_7 YBCO)
with a classical low-Tc superconductor (LTCS) like Pb. Finally, I discuss what
values of the parameters characterizing a superconductor can enhance the reduction
of gravitational field. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 26 07:03:33 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi All,

The paper (Possible alterations of the gravitational field in a superconductor) show the gravitational shielding is a transient effect (1 pS to 1 nS duration) on superconductivity maximized at near critical temperature, and at presence of impurities. I am
 impressed that the Podkletnov experiment appears giving most favorable conditions to obtain the effect. This shows the wisdom of the Podkletnov and suggest an intensive work is behind the experiment.

The paper is also answer why replication attempts by NASA failed. I recall they had tried on better SC crystals and liquid helium temperatures. Conditions maximize the superconductivity minimize the gravitational shielding.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 26 22:12:44 2000
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Is there a red shift associated with
 radiation from our sun ?

just curious...

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Subject: Re: Seeing Red
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: xplorer <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Seeing Red

Xplorer  wrote:


> Is there a red shift associated with
>  radiation from our sun ?

Yes.  The spectral lines in sunlight are red shifted by ~ 2 parts/million
compared to light from Earth sources:

Frequency f = fo[1 + (Phi/c^2)]  where Phi = -GM/R.

Or velocity c = co[1 + (Phi/c^2)]  

The Mossbauer effect was used to measure the red shift of gamma rays due to 
the Earth's Gravity over a vertical path of 20 meters with an accuracy of 
2 parts in 10^15.

On "stars" with a large mass M and a small radius R it is difficult to know whether
the Red shift is due to gravity or a doppler shift do to receding of the star.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> just curious...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 06:49:36 2000
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Subject: Cold Fusion: Accountability in Research
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:46:37 -0400
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All,

Something that may be of great interest to you. I just received yesterday 
an excellent compendium of  papers on the ethics of the cold fusion 
controversy!  This is in Vol.8, Nos 1-2 (2000) of the journal 
Accountability in Research: Policies and Quality Assurance.  
ISSN-0898-9621  This is a Gordon and Breach Science Publisher's Imprint 
journal.  UK phone listed:  44-0-118-956-0080  fax  0-118-956-8211

Excellent articles in it! 

Adil E. Shamoo (Dept of Biological Chemistry, Univ. of Maryland y) 
Editorial: The Ethical Import of the Cold Fusion Controversy"

Scott Chubb -- Naval research Lab
Introduction to the Special Series of Papers in Accountability in 
Research Dealing with "Cold Fusion"

Martin Fleischmann, FRAS
Reflections on the Sociology of Science and Social Responsibility

S.E. Jones  (BYU)
Chasing Anomalous Signals: The Cold Fusion Question

David Goodstein (Caltech)
Whatever happened to cold fusion?

F. Scaramuzzi, ENEA (Italy)
Ten Years of Cold Fusion: An Eyewitness Account

J. Bockris  (Texas A&M)
Accountability and Academic Freedom: The Battle Concerning Research on 
Cold Fusion at Texas A&M University

George Miley  (Univ. of Illinois)
Some Personal Reflections on Scientific Ethics and Cold Fusion

David J. Nagel  (George Washington Univ.)
Fusion Physics and Philosophy

I will be reviewing this issue of that journal for IE issue #35, out next 
February.  This issue of that journal, compendiously referenced, should 
really shake things up...

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

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Subject: Brief Report on Hokkaido Trip
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Greetings all. I returned home yesterday evening from a productive and 
enjoyable trip to Hokkaido University, where I attended the JCF-2 
conference and observed glow discharge experiments performed by Mizuno and 
Ohmori. Here are some of the high points of the conference and other 
interesting news. I will have more to say after I sleep off the jet lag and 
the 27-hour sleepless marathon that passes for modern intercontinental 
transportation.

The JCF has 44 members. (See 
http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/index.html) Thirty five or so 
attended the Second Annual JCF Conference (JCF-2), October 21 - 22, 2000, 
on the campus of Hokkaido National University, in Sapporo. It was a low-key 
affair. The abstracts and viewgraphs were in English, but most of the 
presentations were in Japanese. Three non-Japanese attended: Celani, Ararpi 
and me. Twenty-seven abstracts were submitted. Two authors did not show up, 
so 25 presentations were made, in eight categories and eight sessions, 
including two theory sessions. A few papers were disappointing, especially 
in the light water electrolysis session at the beginning. Five or six 
presentations were outstanding, particularly those of Iwamura et al. 
(Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries), and Mizuno et 
al. (Hokkaido and Osaka National Universities). The Takahashi group at 
Osaka Nat. University continues to report progress with their ion beam 
implantation.

Iwamura et al. are now running two types of experiments with similar 
detection equipment and multilayer membrane cathodes made of palladium and 
a variety of other materials. In the first experiment, which they have been 
doing with 100% reproducibility for several years, they establish a vacuum 
on the bottom of the cathode, and perform liquid electrolysis on the top. 
The deuterons are forced through the cathode rapidly. Iwamura observes 
excess heat and massive transmutations in every case, and occasionally 
x-rays and gamma rays. Spectroscopy is performed before and after the run. 
In the second series of experiments, they use gas loading instead of 
electrolysis, again with a membrane and similar apparatus. Low pressure (1 
atm) deuterium gas is loaded into the chamber on the top surface of the Pd 
sample. It is sucked through the metal into the vacuum below. The reaction 
rate is thousands of times lower than with electrolysis, making it 
impossible to detect excess heat, but contamination is also reduced by 
orders of magnitude. Every few days they evacuate the D2 chamber to take a 
reading with on-line, in situ x-ray mass spectroscopy. They can watch 
surface transmutations develop and change. The evolution of these 
transmutations is complex and astounding, and as far as I know, no theorist 
predicted it. Mg, for example, appears at first, increases, and when it 
reaches a certain density it rapidly decreases, apparently being transmuted 
into something else. The end result is similar to that of the electrolysis 
experiments. After the run, various methods of off-line spectroscopy 
confirm new element production and large isotope shifts. The total mass of 
some of the new elements is much larger than all sources of contamination 
can account for. In a few cases, it is so large that the products are 
visible. These macroscopic transmutation products are mainly elements 
lighter than iron, Si and S, meaning their production is endothermic, which 
I suppose explains why Iwamura et al. are not blown sky-high from a massive 
nuclear energy release.

The Iwamura work is a masterpiece. In my opinion, this is the most 
definitive and important experiments in the history of cold fusion. The 
quality of the data, the care, precision and the high signal to noise ratio 
is rivaled only by McKubre. These are also the most expensive experiments. 
The dedicated, in situ spectrometer alone costs an estimated $700,000, and 
it is bigger than Mizuno's entire laboratory. The entire experiment is 
performed in a clean room, which costs millions. The NHE demonstrated that 
millions of dollars do not guarantee good results. Ohmori does far better 
experiments than the NHE did, using a few thousand dollars of equipment, 
including mercury thermometers, analog meters manufactured in the 1950s, 
and a wind-up mechanical stopwatch. However, Mitsubishi has demonstrated 
that in the right hands, massive funding and the finest equipment money can 
buy will prove that CF is real, and will go far to elucidate the nature of 
the reaction.

McKubre proved once and for all that Pd CF produces helium. Clarke raised 
some interesting potential problems with McKubre's replication of Arata, 
and Arata's own helium claims, but I think McKubre addressed these issues 
at a recent conference, and I expect he will talk about them again at the 
upcoming ANS cold fusion session. Iwamura has proved that cold fusion also 
produces transmutation shifts and fission. I have no idea how to reconcile 
these two findings. The ratio of McKubre's heat and helium production is 
with 5% of conventional hot fusion D-D reactions, which is nothing like 
heavy metal fission. I gather that the fission reactions observed produce 
copious alpha particles. Whether it produces enough to mimic D-D fusion 
rates, I do not know.

I asked Ohmori whether the element production and isotope shifts reported 
by Iwamura and in glow discharge experiments at Iwate Nat. University are 
in line with results reported by Ohmori, Mizuno, Bockris and Miley. He said 
these results are in reasonable agreement, especially for Fe and Cu, and 
the differences can be explained by several factors such as: different 
cathode materials; varying methods of spectroscopy which look at the 
surface or the entire bulk; and the fact that many reactions in the Iwamura 
layered cathode probably occur at the boundaries between layers, which 
cannot be seen with the in-situ spectroscopy, and which Iwamura has not yet 
investigated in detail.

I asked Iwamura whether these experiments have been independently 
replicated or otherwise confirmed. They have not been replicated, because 
of the expertise required and the astronomical cost. However, the results 
have been independently confirmed. Samples have been sent out to expert 
facilities in Japan and Europe other than Mitsubishi, for specialized 
spectroscopy other tests. These independent tests with different instrument 
types confirm the isotope shifts, which prove the new elements cannot be 
contamination. The shifts are orders of magnitude greater than changes 
induced by things like SIMS or electrochemical isotope separation, which in 
any case cannot occur in the gas loading experiments.

Celani's talk was interesting. In the first half he described excess heat 
and nuclear effect with thin wire. The second half was devoted to two new 
species of bacteria they have discovered in heavy water (genere Ralstonia 
and Strenotrophomonas). DNA tests confirm that these are new species, and 
they are now listed in national gene banks in the U.S. and Japan. They are 
ubiquitous, being found in samples of heavy water from different suppliers. 
They are remarkably difficult to kill. They survive 80 deg C heating, and 
30 M Rad radiation from Co-60. This is an important issue with some cold 
fusion experiments because microphotos of Pd wires show that the surface is 
covered with these bacteria after a few days, which blocks loading and 
changes the surface chemistry. With conventional electrochemical CF, the 
concentration of lithium salt is usually high enough to kill the bacteria, 
but in Celani's cells LiOD is less than 0.1 mole, and the bacteria seems to 
thrive on the Hg compounds they add as a surface treatment of the wire. 
Other chemicals strong enough to kill the bacteria also poison the CF reaction.

JCF president Takahashi asked the conference authors to submit viewgraphs 
for immediate  publication on the JCF2 web page.


News of Mizuno and Ohmori

On Monday Mizuno demonstrated excess heat to Celani and I in the morning, 
and to other researchers in the afternoon. (There is only room for three or 
four people in Mizuno's laboratory at one time.) On Tuesday we discussed 
the data in more detail, and I spent three hours observing one of Ohmori's 
runs, which differ in many ways from Mizuno's. His calorimetry and 
equipment is extremely simple -- almost primitive -- but the excess heat is 
so large I do not think there is any question it is real, and the isotope 
shifts he and Mizuno measure are much too large to be instrument error or 
changes induced by SIMS.

Thanks to a corporate sponsor, Mizuno now has a new set of instruments and 
a new, high precision combined flow and isoperibolic calorimeter. This 
setup is easier to use, because it is transparent (all glass, without 
insulation) and results are displayed on the computer in real time. He 
generates excess heat more reliably, at enhanced power levels, in a cleaner 
cell. Until recently he had a high precision power meter. It was borrowed 
from another department, which needed it back, so he purchased the latest 
model, a Yokogawa PZ4000, with awesome performance and a $12,000 price tag. 
It is supposed to be delivered this week. He has been having problems with 
large bursts of RF energy, which paralyze the Agilent data acquisition 
switch unit. The unit often stops working when intense reactions occur 
during the most interesting phase of the experiment, and it takes two 
minutes or so to recover, leaving gaps in the data. Experts in instrument 
noise from the university electrical engineering department and the 
corporate sponsor are working to fix this. I will describe the new 
equipment and results later on.

Mizuno et al. published a paper about the glow discharge excess heat and 
transmutations in the English edition of the Japanese Journal of Applied 
Physics (JJAP) http://www.jjap.or.jp/index.shtml. This is Japan's most 
prestigious scientific journal, and the second most widely cited journal in 
the world (after Nature, I think). The abstract is available on line, and I 
will soon have a full copy in .pdf format, which I can copy to interested 
parties. The paper is:

Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi,, 
"Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl. 
Phys. Vol.39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000

The abstract and references are available at:
http://www.jjap.or.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle?magazine=JJAP&volume=39&number=10R&pa
ge=6055-6061

The JJAP has published several important papers on cold fusion.

- Jed

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Subject: Re:pole shift
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:28:33 -0400
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The following message is forwarded from Michael Mandeville:

To Phoenix Earth Change Bulletin Subscribers:
Ed Storms, George Holz and Vorts take note:

For those who have been asking questions about the science which underlies
Vortex Tectonics and the Avalanche of the Crust Scenario, two extensive
briefs have been placed in the Files section at the home page for the Earth
Change Bulletins:
http://www.egroups.com/files/earthchange-bulletins/Vortex+Tectonics/

The articles can be easily downloaded by auto-ftp directly to your hard
disk.  If your browser displays the PDF files without asking you, make sure
you command a save file to your hard disk.  The files are

"Outline of the Principles Of Vortex Tectonics"  - is just that, a step by
step primer of the factors which create the  primary features of the Earth.

 "Vortex Tectonics:  The Primary Equation" - is quite hefty with 22 graphs,
 some of which are in the "Return of the Phoenix" and some of which are new.
  This is the proof or demonstration of the realities behind my generalizations.

 Rather than respond to most of the Vortex-L posts individually, these two
 documents should handle most of the issues to the extent I can take them
 anywhere.

 The two documents draw together all of the basic logic and the primary
 correlations for Vortex Tectonics as a field for completely revising plate
 tectonics and the dynamic of earth processes. They are done up as finished
 PDF ffiles (for Acrobat Reader) and they are graphically rendered to print
 out of Acrobat at 600 dpi. Thus the graphs and charts are ready to go for
 printing in anything at a high level of quality. Public release is given to
 the charts for reproduction by new media.


Of particular interest is the exceptionally strong proof that El Nino is
 directly synched to and thus a product of the changing location of the spin
 axis.  I have developed the correlation with the 14 month X Wave within the
 7 year Primary Axis Cycle of Chandler's Wobble so well that the occurance
 of the El Nino timing can be predicted seven out of eight times based on
 the precise location of the spin axiis and the "moment" within the 7 year
 cycle..  This is an amazing breakthrough for the understanding of the
 dynamic of Earth processes.  It will revolutiionize geology, geophysics,
 and climatology as plate tectonics did in a previous generation.

Accordingly, I have developed a prediction for the occurance of the next El
 Nino, as if an avalanche of the crust were not happening next year.

 Additionally I have just sort of haltingly mastered recently the obscure
 and thoroughly miserable art of making Microsoft's Access database software
 work.  It is amazing how well the documentation and help system does not
 work and does not lead to postiive results.  After 20 years of success of
 really trying,  Microsoft has gotton very good at cramming software at you
 which can only be made to work by blindly hacking at it with random stabs.
 Though arcane and nerdily very very strange, when you can get Access to
 dance you can easily do what spreadsheet software can't quite do without a
 whole lot of weird mumble jumble.  Thus I have reconstructed  my seismic
 databases and have begun to master quakes in Japan and Southern California.

 Suffice to say that the windows of seismic peak periods which include the
 big killer ones in both areas can be correlated within a period of about 45
 days at about the two out of three or sometimes 3 out of 4 level of
 confidence.  These are demonstrated in the above documentation.

 Based on this, I am issueing a prediction for both areas for the immediate
 future through the next few months.

 THERE IS AN EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS MOMENT COMING IN BOTH AREAS IMMEDIATELY
 DURING THE REMAINDER OF OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER THIS YEAR AND THE NEXT TWO
 BULLETINS WILL CONTAIN THESE PREDICTIONS.

 Please make what use of these as you will.  Let them be widely
 disseminated.  Share the info.  Maybe it will help create a market for the
 Return of the Phoenix books.

 If anyone has serious connections to the Japanese, please introduce me.  I
 want to talk seriously about the broadcast and publication of portions of
 my work in Japan.  Japan is in serious difficulty, pole shift or not, with
 the continued escalation of seismic activity there.  They can make sense of
 how to monitor and interpret what is going on with the principles of vortex
 tectonics.

 Additional Notes:

 1.  The Polar Motion Monitor - the current anomaly X waveform is still
 highly anomalous but the French computers keep putitng on a stiff upper lip
 and keep predicting a return to normalcy. It does seem to be shaping itself
 into a more proper waveform I donlt know what to say about it beyond that.

 2,  The site for the Polar Motion Monitor will be substantially revised
 during the next couple of weeks to reflex the new correlations and
 predictions I have drawn up.  I will also link it directly to the polar
 position graphs which the French are now drawing on line.  These are likely
 to be kept more current than I am managing.
  ____________________________________
 MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing
 Michael Mandeville, publisher
 mwm aa.net
 http://www.aa.net/~mwm


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 27, 2000
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Oct 00   Washington, DC

1. BLACKOUT: WHERE DO IDEAS LIKE THESE COME FROM?  Unlike most
schemes for free energy, the hydrino process of Randy Mills is
not without ample theory.  Mills has written a 1000 page tome,
entitled "the Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum
Mechanics," that takes the reader all the way from hydrinos to
antigravity.  Fortunately, Aaron Barth (not to be confused with
Eric Baar, the Randy Mills' apologist), has taken upon himself to
go through the whole book checking for accuracy.  Barth is a post
doctoral researcher at the Harvard-Smithsonian Institute, and
holds a PhD in Astronomy, 1998, from UCA Berkeley.  What he found
initially were numerous mathematical blunders and unjustified
assumptions.  To his surprise, however, portions of the book
seemed well organized.  These, it now turns out, where lifted
verbatim from various texts.  This has been the object of a great
deal of discussion from Mills' Hydrino Study Group.  Mills seems
not to understand what the fuss is all about. 

2. SCIENCE EDUCATION: SOME LAWS ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO PASS?  How
do you save an important bill from a supreme court challenge?
House democrats came up with a novel answer this week.  Citing
fears of constitutional problems with physicist Vern Ehlers'(R-
MI) National Science Education Act, Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-TX)
implored " we know the urgency of the provisions of this bill.
But we do not want to risk the outcome ".  Solution?  Thirty of
the bill's democrat co-sponsors led the charge to defeat it. WN
suggests that bills like Ehlers, which promote training in
analytical skills, seem urgently needed.

3. POLYGRAPHS: SOME LAWS SHOULDN'T BE PASSED. Congress snuck in a
provision to the defense authorization bill requiring polygraphs
for 5,000 additional Energy Department employees.  Including the
provision from last year's bill, that brings the total to 20,000. 
Hmmmm.  Now how many polygraph tests did Aldrich Ames pass?  

4. "...IF A TREE DON'T FALL ON ME, I'LL LIVE 'TIL I DIE."  Many
readers have asked for a full account of the accident on Sep 3. 
I'm not a first hand witness, but here is what I pieced together
from others: I set out on my usual Sunday jog along the only
trout stream inside the Beltway.  My son would always run with
me, but this day unfortunately, I was alone.  About two miles
into the run, a huge dead oak decided to fall on me.  I underwent
eleven hours of surgery that night as they pieced me together.  I
returned to surgery several times over the next few days to
prevent the spread of infection.  The right leg is now recovering
rapidly and should be back in shape in six months.  The right arm
may take longer.  Meanwhile, I'm back at home and I'm able to do
some work, but I won't be at top speed for a while.  Fortunately,
my staff is smarter than I am, so you should hardly notice.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 15:23:17 2000
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:19:50 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Compressed Air Car Announced
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >***{Even if you believe the ridiculous mileage claims (120 miles per 30
> >cents of refueling cost), the thing is just the latest politically correct
> >death trap on wheels. (It only weighs a little over 1600 lbs.) I wouldn't
> >have one as a gift. --MJ}***

As I have pointed out before, a well-engineered and expensive light 
vehicle, such a Boeing 747, is safer than a comparatively poorly engineered 
vehicle, such as an automobile. More to the point, some light vehicles are 
a lot of fun even though they are dangerous. Bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles, 
scooters and horses for example.  I would not take a motorcycle as a gift, 
but many people enjoy them. Jones is a killjoy who would take the fun out 
of riding them, just because you are ten times more likely to be killed on 
one than you are in a car. It is a calculated risk that some people are 
willing to take for their own reasons, such as the pleasure of whizzing 
silently along in the open air under you own power, and not because of any 
"politically correct" ideas. People like me have enjoyed bicycles since 
1870, before they invented cars, and we will still be riding bicycles when 
cars are a distant memory, hundreds or thousands of years from now.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 15:52:06 2000
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Subject: Upcoming attractions from Hokkaido
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Here is a list of topics I am thinking of covering, either here or in the 
magazine, after I get over  jet lag. I am more likely to get around to 
writing or posting info if people express interest, perhaps by private e-mail:

More details on the Iwamura experiment. Translated details from his recent 
paper in Japanese. (The two abstracts on the JCF site is in English.)

The Mizuno-Rothwell Isotope-shift Challenge Initiative, in which we propose 
to send used cathodes to friendly skeptics who do not want to bother doing 
electrolysis, but who want to see proof that a nuclear reaction can occur 
in the solid state.

A detailed, step by step look at the Ohmori experiment, including every 
data point he took (all manually), photos of the equipment, and a scan of 
an unused cathode which I have sitting here in a paper envelope.

Three still photos that Mizuno took recently of the cathode at three phases 
of glow discharge electrolysis, with no excess heat, still no excess heat, 
and a burst of excess heat. I should correlate these to the data set, but I 
am not sure which set or where they fit. I should scan these and post them 
on my web page . . .  Anyway, The appearance of the plasma is very 
important. He is making a digital video which he will bring to the ANS next 
month in Washington. If someone out there on Vortex can transfer a digital 
video to a CD-ROM it might be helpful. We called some electronics stores in 
Sapporo on Wednesday and they wanted to charge Mizuno $300 for the add-on 
cables and computer gadgets to do this. I told him I did not think it is 
worth it.

A look at two of the conventional electrolysis papers Bockris and Mizuno 
published before cold fusion, in 1986 and 1988. This tells you a great deal 
about the mindset of academic electrochemists, and the level of difficulty 
reproducibility in typical experiments. If it reaches 10%, they are 
delighted. They declare victory and leave the rest to the engineers. This 
is why they now consider CF reproducible when the physicists still do not 
believe it exists.

Any questions readers here have about the abstracts listed at the JCF site. 
I have most of the presentations on audiotape. Please note I did attend the 
theory sessions, and I would not have had a clue what they were about even 
if they had been in English. Actually, I found it easier to follow the 
experiment reports in Japanese than I do when the same authors speak 
English, since their accent and the difficulty of speaking English slows 
them down and interferes with their presentation. The only person at the 
conference who does not speak much Japanese was Celani, and he seemed to 
follow remarkably well, with some interpreting by Takahashi.

A review of tonkatsu (port cutlet) restaurants and the raunchy movies 
available nowadays in first-class Japanese hotels? Perhaps that would be a 
little off topic, and some might insist they demonstrate the politically 
correct fascist nature of Japanese society.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 00:04:28 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Upcoming attractions from Hokkaido
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At 6:48 PM 10/27/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Here is a list of topics I am thinking of covering, either here or in the
>magazine, after I get over  jet lag. I am more likely to get around to
>writing or posting info if people express interest, perhaps by private e-mail:



Your reports are most interesting and informative.  Thanks very much and
please keep them coming!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Jed writes:
>A review of tonkatsu (port cutlet) restaurants and the raunchy movies 
>available nowadays in first-class Japanese hotels? Perhaps that would be a 
>little off topic, and some might insist they demonstrate the politically 
>correct fascist nature of Japanese society.
>
>- Jed

Ahoy Jed,

Thanks for the report, it sounds like they are more succesfully active than
we are here.  I've been too busy eating pork cutlet and watching raunchy
movies myself to surf the Japenese websites, but I was wondering if you ever
noticed a grassroots alternative energy movement there, like there is here.
In an earlier report, you mentioned that you had seen scads of rooftop,
passive solar bathwater heaters the last time you were there, and another
guy on the FreeNRG Group said that he saw a bunch of them in Crete when he
was on his last vacation, as well.  They make a lot of sense, as do a lot of
other alternatives, and we either just don't have them here, or the vast
majority of people just don't use them.

Do you know if either of these fairly massive utilizations were government
subsidized in some way, or if the manufacturers in those countries simply
started making them, and the people just bought them of their own accord?
In other words, do you know the extent of the government's involvement and
leadership in the utilization of alternative energy through tax incentives,
ad campaigns, or whatever, especially in Japan?  I realize that there are
more factors at play than just government involvement, like the differences
in consumer energy prices between our countries, etc., but I am curious
about that particular governmental involvement aspect.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Have a look at
 http://explorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm

Powered by cold fusion, this could be fun!

Nick Palmer

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Have a look at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://explorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm">http://exp=
lorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Powered by cold fusion, this could be=20
fun!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick Palmer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C040D0.02D28460--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 05:34:56 2000
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October 28, 2,000

Vortex,

Congratulation to Jed for taking in the Japan Cold Fusion Conference-2
at Hokkaido. I look forward to the report, whether in the IE or here.
As has been noted earlier here, the recently established Japan CF-
Research Society has a website readable in Japanese or English (click
the British flag icon). <<http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka a-u.ac.jp/JCF/
Prior to JCF-2, they announced a downloadable 35 page  (700k+bytes)
complete Proceedings Abstract in Adobe's PDF (4.0 and above) format.
Easy enough to do. However, there is a big block to be able to read
this, although the contents is in English. This has held me back for
posting this notice earlier. And perhaps Jed could tell Mizuno about
this. It is that the PDF format they use in Japan has some extra program
code  for Japanese characters. And trying read the PDF file (although it
may be in English) with a regular Adobe 4.0 after downloading will kick
out an error message.
The solution to this is: Go to Adobe's website and click on the icon
that says World. Select Japan. This will bring up a Japanese Adobe
website in Japanese or gibberish if you do not have an online
translator. It doesn't matter. The Japanese Adobe website  layout is
identical to the regular English Adobe website. So you can 'feel' your
way through.
Click on the Adobe Acrobat icon among choices. Select the Free Reader
icon. This will bring up 1,2,3 sectioned panels. Click on the colored
writing in #1. Just fill in your first name in the first line, the last
name in the second line, your e-mail address in the third. Click the
left hand button below #1 indicating 'next'. In the second panel, just
go down and click either Windows or Apple. Most likely Windows.  This
will start the long downloading for Adobe 4.05, with Japanese code (6+
megabytes). After downloading, activate the file. You will be able to
read the 35 page Abstracts. Presumably, the PDF file will be in Japanese
if you downloaded the JCF-2 Abstracts while reading Japanese at their
website.
Good Luck. I think having the Abstracts makes it easier to relate to
whatever Jed may report.

-AK-




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October 28, 2,000

Vortex,

Congratulation to Jed for taking in the Japan Cold Fusion Conference-2
at Hokkaido. I look forward to the report, whether in the IE or here.
As has been noted earlier here, the recently established Japan CF-
Research Society has a website readable in Japanese or English (click
the British flag icon). 
<<http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka a-u.ac.jp/JCF/newe.html>>
Prior to JCF-2, they announced a downloadable 35 page  (700k+bytes)
complete Proceedings Abstract in Adobe's PDF (4.0 and above) format.
Easy enough to do. However, there is a big block to be able to read
this, although the contents is in English. This has held me back for
posting this notice earlier. And perhaps Jed could tell Mizuno about
this. It is that the PDF format they use in Japan has some extra program
code  for Japanese characters. And trying read the PDF file (although it
may be in English) with a regular Adobe 4.0 after downloading will kick
out an error message.
The solution to this is: Go to Adobe's website and click on the icon
that says World. Select Japan. This will bring up a Japanese Adobe
website in Japanese or gibberish if you do not have an online
translator. It doesn't matter. The Japanese Adobe website  layout is
identical to the regular English Adobe website. So you can 'feel' your
way through.
Click on the Adobe Acrobat icon among choices. Select the Free Reader
icon. This will bring up 1,2,3 sectioned panels. Click on the colored
writing in #1. Just fill in your first name in the first line, the last
name in the second line, your e-mail address in the third. Click the
left hand button below #1 indicating 'next'. In the second panel, just
go down and click either Windows or Apple. Most likely Windows.  This
will start the long downloading for Adobe 4.05, with Japanese code (6+
megabytes). After downloading, activate the file. You will be able to
read the 35 page Abstracts. Presumably, the PDF file will be in Japanese
if you downloaded the JCF-2 Abstracts while reading Japanese at their
website.
Good Luck. I think having the Abstracts makes it easier to relate to
whatever Jed may report.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 08:46:47 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:02:17 PST7BST 
Message-ID: <yam8332.852.17966800 mail.earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Politics and Cold Fusion/Alternative Energy
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On 25-Oct-00, Frederick Sparber, wrote:


>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp roshi.com>
>To: Frederick Sparber <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:02 AM
>Subject: Re: Politics and Cold Fusion/Alternative Energy

>Chuck Davis wrote:


>> On 24-Oct-00, Frederick Sparber, wrote:
>> >Any way you slice it, "Big Oil" isn't friendly toward Cold Fusion 
>> >and/or Alternative Energy Technology.
>> 
>> >www.algore.com  or www.georgewbush.com 
>> 
>> >Go Figure.   :-)
>> 
>> Well, Frederick, I (have) lurked this list, for as long as anybody, here,
>> and I've seen any CF, yet.
>> 
>> The free market, rulez :)

>You have or you haven't?   :-)

>I attended a talk by Mike McKubre (SRI) a couple of weeks ago. The evidence
>that he presented was quite convincing. Lots of work by others that ain't
>blowing smoke either.

 Yes, I listened to McKubre, once, on the radio. Sounded promising :)
 Doesn't seem that he's getting the P&F treatment, either.

Hey, I'm rootin' for all y'all :)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 10:06:22 2000
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Goto http://www.iop.org/EJ/welcome

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 10:10:52 2000
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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:07:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Brief Report on Hokkaido Trip
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
>Iwamura et al. are now running two types of experiments with similar
>detection equipment and multilayer membrane cathodes made of palladium and
>a variety of other materials. In the first experiment, which they have been
>doing with 100% reproducibility for several years, they establish a vacuum
>on the bottom of the cathode, and perform liquid electrolysis on the top.
>The deuterons are forced through the cathode rapidly. Iwamura observes
>excess heat and massive transmutations in every case, and occasionally
>x-rays and gamma rays. Spectroscopy is performed before and after the run.
>In the second series of experiments, they use gas loading instead of
>electrolysis, again with a membrane and similar apparatus. Low pressure (1
>atm) deuterium gas is loaded into the chamber on the top surface of the Pd
>sample. It is sucked through the metal into the vacuum below. The reaction
>rate is thousands of times lower than with electrolysis, making it
>impossible to detect excess heat, but contamination is also reduced by
>orders of magnitude. Every few days they evacuate the D2 chamber to take a
>reading with on-line, in situ x-ray mass spectroscopy. They can watch
>surface transmutations develop and change. The evolution of these
>transmutations is complex and astounding, and as far as I know, no theorist
>predicted it. Mg, for example, appears at first, increases, and when it
>reaches a certain density it rapidly decreases, apparently being transmuted
>into something else. The end result is similar to that of the electrolysis
>experiments. After the run, various methods of off-line spectroscopy
>confirm new element production and large isotope shifts. The total mass of
>some of the new elements is much larger than all sources of contamination
>can account for. In a few cases, it is so large that the products are
>visible. These macroscopic transmutation products are mainly elements
>lighter than iron, Si and S, meaning their production is endothermic, which
>I suppose explains why Iwamura et al. are not blown sky-high from a massive
>nuclear energy release.
>
>The Iwamura work is a masterpiece. In my opinion, this is the most
>definitive and important experiments in the history of cold fusion. The
>quality of the data, the care, precision and the high signal to noise ratio
>is rivaled only by McKubre. These are also the most expensive experiments.
>The dedicated, in situ spectrometer alone costs an estimated $700,000, and
>it is bigger than Mizuno's entire laboratory. The entire experiment is
>performed in a clean room, which costs millions.

***{Wonderful. The cheap stuff isn't reproducible, and the stuff that is
reproducible costs millions. If that is representative of the actual state
of affairs, then CF is useless. It is just another big science scheme that,
even if implemented, will be controlled by governments and used to increase
our dependency on the state. We will all remain hooked to the
government-controlled power grid like a gigantic umbilical cord, and will
continue to be denied access to the kind of small scale power plants that
we desperately need, if we are to move into space and achieve a restoration
of our freedom.

If you want a model of the implications of a "big science" form of cold
fusion, you need look no further than nuclear power. Under capitalism, we
would have had small scale fission power plants 30 years ago, running
homes, automobiles, aircraft, ships, boats, and, in all likelihood, space
craft. However, it didn't happen. The government wanted control, and had
the Cold War and nuclear secrecy excuses, plus the support of the usual
technophobic idiots, and slapped down a stifling blanket of controls on the
technology. Result: industry was prevented from scaling it down, and here
we sit: rotting on pesthole Earth, under fascism, and awaiting the final
collapse into a new dark age--a collapse which will bring about the deaths
of billions, and an end of the present civilization. This state affairs
exists and endures for one reason only: because it takes many millions of
dollars and access to a free market in raw materials and parts, in order to
scale down nuclear fission technology. A homebrew experimenter can't do it,
and so government can kill the freedom enhancing aspects of the technology.

Bottom line: if cold fusion is just another variation on the nuclear power
theme, it is useless garbage, even if it is real.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 10:15:13 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
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>Go to http://www.iop.org/EJ/welcome

***{All you get is the table of contents and the abstracts, Hamdi. --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 10:43:57 2000
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Subject: Re: Politics and Cold Fusion/Alternative Energy
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Chuck Davis, A Texan, wrote:

> >> On 24-Oct-00, Frederick Sparber, wrote:
> >> >Any way you slice it, "Big Oil" isn't friendly toward Cold Fusion 
> >> >and/or Alternative Energy Technology.
> >> 
> >> >www.algore.com  or www.georgewbush.com 
> >> 
> >> >Go Figure.   :-)
> >> 
> >> Well, Frederick, I (have) lurked this list, for as long as anybody, here,
> >> and I've seen any CF, yet.
> >> 
> >> The free market, rulez :)
> 
> >You have or you haven't?   :-)
> 
> >I attended a talk by Mike McKubre (SRI) a couple of weeks ago. The evidence
> >that he presented was quite convincing. Lots of work by others that ain't
> >blowing smoke either.
> 
>  Yes, I listened to McKubre, once, on the radio. Sounded promising :)
>  Doesn't seem that he's getting the P&F treatment, either.
> 
> Hey, I'm rootin' for all y'all :)

I'm leaning toward using the Alternative Energy approach in the near term.

That 12,000 Quads/day Solar insolation on the Earth (1 quad = 10^15 Btu) and
the World's total Energy Production and Use is about 1 Quad/day.

Biomass is already about 5% of that, and if the existing/proven technology for
Biomass Energy was put into use using Agricultural/Forest wastes was put on line
for synthetic fuels (methane, methanol and hydrogen, and with Mobil's ZSM-5 Catalyst
gasoline) you could see independence from OPEC in 3 to 5 years,or less.

This is turn-key technology that has been ready to go for the last 15 to 20  years, and 
was "supposed to go online" when oil hit $25.00/bbl.

OTOH, "Big Oil" doesn't like this any more than OPEC. They would rather
tap into the ~70 BILLION TONS of High Grade Coal Reserves in Wyoming
(Dick Cheney's home state), and turn the Earth into a Greenhouse with the CO2.

Go to www.patents.ibm.com   now  www.delphion.com  and look to see who
holds the patents on the most practical Alternative Energy processes.

Regards,    Frederick
> -- 
>     .-.                                                               .-.
>    /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
>   /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
> -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
>     RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
>            \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
>             `-'                                               `-'
> http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
> http://www.neurofeedback-dribric.com/
> http://www.austin-biofeedback.com/
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 11:01:32 2000
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No! One should register before full access. Follow links.


Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Go to http://www.iop.org/EJ/welcome
> 
> ***{All you get is the table of contents and the abstracts, Hamdi. --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >hamdi ucar

-- 
- It's a feature, not a bug!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 11:19:00 2000
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Subject: Re: Brief Report on Hokkaido Trip
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{Wonderful. The cheap stuff isn't reproducible, and the stuff that is
>reproducible costs millions. If that is representative of the actual state
>of affairs, then CF is useless.

This statement is preposterous. Anyone looking at the Iwamura or McKubre 
experiment will see at a glance that the actual CF device at the heart of 
the experiment is cheap and simple. The detection equipment and mass 
spectroscopy cost millions. A person driving a CF powered car would not 
need to bring along a $700,000 mass spectrometer. You do not need a 
$200,000 silicon-chip lithography machine in order to operate a $5 hand 
calculator. The expense and difficulty of doing the basic scientific 
research has no bearing on the cost of technology that may result from it.

In any case, Ohmori's glow discharge experiment is very cheap, costing only 
a few thousand dollars for the power supply and milligram weight scale, and 
it has been independently reproduced by at least four other researchers in 
Japan, at two universities and two corporations. Naturally, to explicate 
the glow discharge effect in detail will require millions or perhaps 
billions of dollars, but you can see the excess heat and new elements for a 
modest cost, as long as you know how to do electrochemistry well.


>  It is just another big science scheme that,
>even if implemented, will be controlled by governments and used to increase
>our dependency on the state.

Why would it be controlled by the government? Is the use of hand 
calculators or computers controlled by the government? To make a simple 
desktop computer, you need several factories costing upwards of $1 billion 
each. Computers are one of the most massive and capital intense industries 
on earth, but they are now free of government influence or control. 
Computer technology was invented by and paid for by the government during 
WWII, and was supported mainly by massive government and military grants 
until 1960, but the government plays absolutely no role in dictating the 
design or use of personal computers today. Ditto the Internet: invented by 
Uncle Sam, paid for by Uncle Sam, and now exclusively the property of 
corporations and citizens, completely free of government control. (Thanks, 
to a surprising extent, to Al Gore.)


>If you want a model of the implications of a "big science" form of cold
>fusion, you need look no further than nuclear power.

That's absurd. Nuclear fission power requires massive machinery and deadly 
radioactive isotopes. CF requires $20 worth of W and ordinary water, or 
perhaps $1000 worth of Pd and a few other elements. The comparison makes no 
sense at all.

- Jed

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>
>
> ***{Wonderful. The cheap stuff isn't reproducible, and the stuff that is
> reproducible costs millions. If that is representative of the actual state
> of affairs, then CF is useless.

Surely you jest, Mitchell.  At this stage, cost has no relationship to
potential usefulness. In any case, this same criticism can be applied to "hot
fusion" or even normal fission reactors with even more justification.

> It is just another big science scheme that,
> even if implemented, will be controlled by governments and used to increase
> our dependency on the state. We will all remain hooked to the
> government-controlled power grid like a gigantic umbilical cord, and will
> continue to be denied access to the kind of small scale power plants that
> we desperately need, if we are to move into space and achieve a restoration
> of our freedom.

All of the "normal" power sources benefit from the economics of scale.  This
requires state control in order for the system to work efficiently.  We are
already seeing what happens when this control is weakened by deregulation.  On
the other hand, cold fusion (should it ever work well enough) will not benefit
by being made bigger.  Therefore, the basic character of the phenomenon will
lead to decentralization of power and the condition you seem to want.  It seems
to me to be in your self-interest to encourage the development of CF rather
than finding reasons that it will not work.

>
>
> If you want a model of the implications of a "big science" form of cold
> fusion, you need look no further than nuclear power. Under capitalism, we
> would have had small scale fission power plants 30 years ago, running
> homes, automobiles, aircraft, ships, boats, and, in all likelihood, space
> craft.

In which case, we would have radioactive contamination everywhere rather than
only in a few sites.  Surely you can see the practical consequence of such an
approach.

> However, it didn't happen. The government wanted control, and had
> the Cold War and nuclear secrecy excuses, plus the support of the usual
> technophobic idiots, and slapped down a stifling blanket of controls on the
> technology. Result: industry was prevented from scaling it down, and here
> we sit: rotting on pesthole Earth, under fascism, and awaiting the final
> collapse into a new dark age--a collapse which will bring about the deaths
> of billions, and an end of the present civilization.

And what are you doing about this problem?  A problem can only be solved when
the solution is practical and consistent with the general self-interest. Your
solutions do not fit this requirement.  On the other hand, if cold fusion can
be made to work well, a natural solution to many problems will exist.

> This state affairs
> exists and endures for one reason only: because it takes many millions of
> dollars and access to a free market in raw materials and parts, in order to
> scale down nuclear fission technology. A homebrew experimenter can't do it,
> and so government can kill the freedom enhancing aspects of the technology.

This is true.  However, so many problems such as pollution, global warming, and
the political aspects of the oil supply make another alternative very
attractive to many more people than the  US government and big oil can
control.  If the transition to CF does not happen here, it will happen in Japan
or China, whereupon we will have to convert or be left in the dust.

>
> Bottom line: if cold fusion is just another variation on the nuclear power
> theme, it is useless garbage, even if it is real.

Why not look at the bright side; if it is real, we will be able to throw off
the yoke of oppression (using your words).

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 12:21:10 2000
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>All of the "normal" power sources benefit from the economics of scale.  This
>requires state control in order for the system to work efficiently.  We are
>already seeing what happens when this control is weakened by deregulation.  On
>the other hand, cold fusion (should it ever work well enough) will not benefit
>by being made bigger.

If the microturbine people are correct, local power generation and small 
scale co-gen may defy economies of scale.  In urban areas the fuel will 
still be delivered via the pipeline infrastructure, but the generation will 
occur on a small scale, like space and water heating. (In Moscow, there is 
a Stalin era central heating plant for space and water heating in the 
surrounding houses and apartments. It works about as well as most Soviet 
era technology.)

Cold fusion devices will not benefit from economy of scale, but a cold 
fusion engine factories might. It is hard to predict at this stage. If CF 
cells have to be made ultra clean and sealed against contamination, like 
hard disks or RAM chips, then large-scale factories may be required. It is 
a little disconcerting to imagine a sealed, 50 KW energy cell. Unlike other 
energy devices, a CF heat source would not generate dirt or contamination 
on its own, so it could be used in a sterile environment. The CF device 
itself could be kept pristine, even if was being used to drive a truck on 
the New Jersey Turnpike.

If it turns out that CF devices work better or they are cheaper when 
manufactured in $5 billion factories, then CF will be somewhat under the 
control of by large corporations like Mitsubishi.  There is no reason to 
think it would be under government control, any more than air conditioners 
or can openers are. Large corporations like Mitsubishi, Hitachi and Intel 
control the production of computer chips, CRTs and LCD panels, but that 
control does not appear to give them much say over our lives, or the 
ability to interfere with our freedom or stifle competition. Oil companies 
seem to have more political power than, say, Intel or Microsoft, even 
though Intel and Microsoft have much stronger monopoly power than any 
single oil company has.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 28 19:21:31 2000
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October 29, 2,000

Vortex,

Oops,
The correct link address is: 
<<http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html>>

-AK-

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Seems that the membership hasn't grown much lately.  :-)

 http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 29 04:05:27 2000
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Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Atmospheric Electricity Etc
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Since the production of the Electron-Positron Pair from collision of
a 1.02 Mev photon with a particle is well known, it stands to reason
that production of Particle Pairs (Light Leptons) with mass/energy
much lighter than Electrons-Positrons can be created at other resonances:

n*1.02 Mev   (x-ray)

n*7,443 ev    (soft x-ray)

n* 54.4 ev     (EUV)

n* 0.396 ev    (Infrared-UV)

With ~1.3 kilowatts/square meter Solar Insolation on the Earth's Upper Atmosphere
and the Ozone layer, the Light-Lepton (+/-) pairs can be formed, and the
LL- should attach to the O2 molecule with it's high Electron Affinity, possibly
leaving the LL+ unattached, thus setting up the ~ 300,000 volt "Fair-Weather Field"
that exists around the Earth.

At some point the LL+ can attach to the highly polar H2O molecule and be
brought into the Atmospheric Electricity mix resulting in those effects.

Once in the cycle the LLs can exist in abundance throughout the Earth's 
Atmosphere-Hydrosphere, which would explain the "Cheshire-Cat" manifestations
seen with the Over-Unity effects with agitated water (when the LL Pairs annihilate)
and Cold Fusion effects in Electrolysis Cells, and "Fixed" Atmospheric Gases.

OTOH, there is ample reason to believe that the LL Pairs can be generated
"in situ". in the OU/CF experiments and form Neutral P* and D* particles
giving off heat and catalyzing the Cold Fusion reactions.

Based on this hypothesis, it seems that the prudent way to increase "yield"
is to concentrate on increasing the LL Pair Production in the experiments
by whatever means possible.

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 29 09:36:53 2000
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1,  Proton + LL-  ---> P* +   ? kev photons

2, Deuteron + LL-  ---> P* + neutron   +  ? kev  (Deuteron Stripping)

3, Deuteron + LL-  ---> D* +   ? kev photons

4, D* + D ---> Tritium + Proton + LL- +  ~ 4.0 Mev

5, D* + D  ---> Helium-3 + neutron + LL-  +  ~ 4.0 Mev

6, D* + D  --->  Helium-4 + LL-  +   ~ 24.0 Mev

In reactions 4, 5, and 6, the relativistic LL-  (Mrel = Mo[(Ekin/Eo) + 1] ) is
going to carry the lion's share of the reaction energy, and due to it's small mass,
it should  "thermalize" rapidly.

The trick is to get the LL (+/-) Pair production count high enough to do some good.

Regards,   Frederick


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For those of you Vortexians who have trouble understanding my lack of 
upset with Randell Mills' alleged plagiarism, you have to understand 
that I'm used to dealing with inventors, and being tolerant of their 
eccentricities. Eccentric, is a polite term for doing things like 
screwing investors, swapping wives,"borrowing" other people's work, 
and generally being difficult to work with. As a general rule, the 
better the inventor the more eccentric they are. The exception to 
that rule being a selfless academic like Otto Schmitt.

I emailed Randy and pointed out that: It's not what you do, it's what 
you get caught at,  if you are going to use someone else's work you 
should at least rewrite it. If you copy one person it plagiarism, if 
you copy from 10 it's research.

I received the following reply.

Thomas,
	Having returned from vacation, I found the basis of your 
e-mail.  I hope
that you read my HSG response to the accusation of plagiarism.  I copied
some familiar work in order to criticize it, not to claim it as mine.  I
referenced all work of others.

Thanks for the heads up

Randy

I've been reading Randell's article in Infinite Energy. I agree that 
the major corporations who invested in BLP would have done so without 
seeing energy produced. While I don't know much about physics, and 
consequently am easy to impress, I was impressed with the rest of the 
article.  I am also faced with the very unpleasent prospect of 
spending $1500 on natural gas over the next six months heating my 
house. I've been urging Randy to get busy on the home heating unit.

Thomas



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Murray: Kennel: flaws in 1998 Iwamura report  10.29.00

http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/alpha_I

Iwamura Y, Itoh T, Gotoh N, Toyoda I;   Fusion Technol. 33 (1998) 476.
"Detection of anomalous elements, x-ray, and excess heat in a D2-Pd
system and its interpretation by the electron-induced
nuclear reaction model".
** Experimental and theory; transmutation, res+
A well designed and careful multiparameter experiment.
A Pd cathode, 1 mm thick, was placed at the bottom of an electrolysis
cell, the lower side facing a vacuum chamber;
in this way, a steady flux of
deuterium could be induced through the Pd membrane. Various coatings
were tried, such as Cu, Pt, Al and MgO. Parameters measured included
excess heat, x-rays and neutrons. There was x-ray emission from the Pd
side exposed to the electrolyte, and some neutrons but uncorrelated with

the x-rays, which were not correlated
with excess heat either. The team
therefore posits different nuclear reactions as the origin of these
products.
Also, certain elements were apparently produced at the upper Pd surface,

such as Ti and Ca.
Careful analysis seems to rule out prior
contamination, at least for Ti. The authors then go on to invoke their
EINR model to explain the results.  091997|071998

[email version posted on Vortex-L May 11 1998]
Subject: ICCF-7 Conference Report  May 8 1998

Author:  Elliot Kennel, Ekennel Apsci.com, Ekennel@Compuserve.com

 I attended the 7th International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-7),
April 19-24, 1998.  The proceedings are not yet out, so my comments
are a bit tentative as they are based on my notes and memory...

Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
(MHI) was disappointing, as they reported non-reproducible results
which have the definite appearance of electronic noise....


Transmutation

Since the last conference, many persons have gotten very excited about
the possibility of transmutation reactions and isotope shifts.  Some of
the data looks more convincing than others.
Some claims are made on the basis of the following rationale:

 a.  The system is known to be very clean.

 b.  Impurities are found on the cathode.

 c.  Since the system is clean, the impurities must be due to a nuclear
reaction.

This seems very weak to me, since it is impossible to show that the
system was really clean before the experiment.
Moreover, electrolysis cells are often used to clean up
liquid waste streams, because all positive ions plate out on the
cathode.
So the fact that a few milligrams of positive ionic
crud appears on the cathode, is not surprising to me.
The presence of isotopic shift seems much more important.  If the
cathodic crud is always the same abundance as normal material,
it is very likely chemical contamination, since the cold fusion process,

whatever it is, is highly implausible
that it would just happen to mimic
the ultrahigh energy bombardment and subsequent radioactive decay
from the creation of the universe during the Big Bang
(unless the universe was created by cold fusion instead— of course
that assumption ups the ante for cold fusion quite a bit).
On the other hand, if there is an unnatural isotope shift, this is
difficult (though not impossible— see below) to achieve via normal
chemical processes.
Some comment is necessary on potential errors in isotope
identification.  Secondary Ion Mass Spectroscopy (SIMS)
is a technique used by many investigators.  However,
there are different types of SIMS,  ranging from completely useless
to marginally useful but often misleading.
With low-res SIMS, it is not possible to separate molecules from
atoms.  Thus Mass 102 could be Pd-102, Ru-102, or it might be
something like Al2O3.   So everything appears isotope shifted in
low res SIMS.  At higher res, most of the apparent shifts are no longer
seen, but some persist.
Ru-104 and Pd-104 are examples of elemental interference which is very
difficult to overcome.  A good state of the art machine can obtain an
m/?m of over 6000, but the m/?m rating required to
separate Ru-104 and Pd-104 is about 75,000.
High-res SIMS is subject to other errors, particularly in non-uniform
surfaces (which includes many electrolysis surfaces) because of the
SIMS relative sensitivity factor (RSF) which is isotope dependent,
and which also depends on the identity of the neighboring
atom. The ability to translate SIMS observations to the original
concentration of the observed ions is dependent upon the ability
to obtain RSF for the element in question.

 IR/Cr = RSFI (II/CI)

where IR is the intensity of secondary ions from the reference atom,
usually the majority atom in the target; CR is the concentration of
reference atoms in the target; Ii is the secondary ion intensity of the
ith element atoms in the target, and Ci is the concentration of the ith
element atoms in the target.
For many problems, the RSF of the matrix is constant, and the other
atoms are present only as slight impurities of the host matrix.
In this case, it is likely that the RSF factors will be quite constant
for these impurities.
However, the RSFs are not constants for each atomic species.  They are
functions of the host matrix atoms as well.  In a dirty, heavily
contaminated sample with substantial lattice strain energy,
the RSFs will vary in an unpredictable way, and may in fact vary from
isotope to isotope.  In other words,

 RSFI = f(CR,CI,U)  ,

where U refers to the local lattice strain energy.
In other words, what you are doing in SIMS is blasting the surface
with oxygen and tearing away atoms from the surface.
But the energy required to tear the atom from the surface depends on
how big it is as well as how it is bonded to its neighbor.
If you have less than a clean, pure surface,
there are going to be substantial
variations in the SIMS signature for a given element.
Annealing the sample can reduce the error due to variation of the RSF.
There is also a fallacy in trusting the literature values too much.
Not all material adheres to the literature value of abundance.
There can be some variations according to where it is originally
mined.
In addition, some elements are routinely sold in isotope-enriched
form.  For example, when you buy lithium, it is normally something like
99% Li-7.  This is because Li-6 is used for nuclear applications,
and the Li-7 is sold as the byproduct from the separation process.
 lso, isotopic separation can occur due to the electrolysis process
itself, especially for light elements.  In particular, studies at NHE
Lab have shown that some degree of separation occurs in the
H-D-T system, and some smaller effects may exist in other systems.
For these reasons, SIMS is proven to be unreliable for identifying
isotope shift.
SIMS apparent isotope shift has been observed with excess heat, and
without it, with deuterium and with hydrogen.  Moreover, since the
Karabut group reports SIMS shifts due to Xenon bombardment
(i.e., no hydrogen, no deuterium, no palladium, no
electrolysis), then the link between isotope shift and electochemical
cold fusion is much more ambiguous.
I am also not excited about arguments for a transmutation origin of
cathodic crud based on patterns in the distribution of elements.
Electrochemically transported crud should consist mainly of positive
ions and not negative ions, and thus will create patterns corresponding
to the periodic table (i.e., valence).  The presence of mostly positive
ions on the cathode suggests chemical transport
rather than a nuclear origin.

Dr. George Miley and Dr. T. Mizuno have been among the strongest
advocates for the existence of transmutation effects.  I like Mizuno’s
arguments the best, because he has at least some data which
shows a 100% isotope shift in copper (all Cu-63, no Cu-65, according to
SIMS), plus he has detected Cu with several other techniques
(but unfortunately not yet with NAA as far as I know) .
So this looks like a reasonable argument.  Even though SIMS is not very
reliable, 100% vs. 0% is tough to explain.  Still, as argued above,
neutron activation, rather than SIMS, is probably the
preferred technique for observing isotope shift.  However, Cu is a bit
of a problem since one of the lines needed to make the identification is

511 keV, which unfortunately is used by several radionuclides.
The half life must be measured to distinguish between several
radionuclides.
On the other hand, Miley’s approach is to use both neutron activation
analysis (NAA) and SIMS together.  This is the correct approach,
as neutron activation can be compelling evidence for many
(though not all) radionuclides.   The main problem with NAA is that it
is possible to make mistakes with individual elements because two or
more radionuclides often emit at the same gamma energy.
In addition, as mentioned above, some variation in isotopic abundance
can occur naturally or in the refining process or during electrolysis.
Miley’s isotope shift claims are not as spectacular as Mizuno’s, though
Miley’s methodology appears to be better.  From my point of view,
Miley’s data looks like chemical transport.  The biggest shifts occur
for those elements in the smallest abundance, which arouses doubt.
If you are willing to believe that the system is dirtier than Miley
thinks, then the data is not really very anomalous.
I would like to see a single
element with a well-studied, verifiably anomalous isotope shift
as revealed by NAA for which all the error mechanisms have been
considered and ruled out.  I have not yet seen this yet.
Mizuno’s data looks much more anomalous, though better measurements are
needed to be sure that he really has something.  Maybe he is right that
the SIMS data is good enough to conclude that a Cu isotope shift has
occurred, but I’m very suspicious of SIMS and would like to see a very
good measurement with NAA to corroborate it.  I hope this is possible.
I think Professor Richard Oriani fell into a trap in his paper, in
which he talked about superatoms with weight of over 300.  Mass spec is
simply not reliable for this purpose.  I felt badly for him, because my
impression has been that he is a very competent mechanical
engineer.  But now I suspect someone has sucked him into very dubious
spectroscopic research, and he is no longer in his field of expertise.
I would tend not to accept neutron activation results as proof of
isotopic shift unless the shift is greater than about 10-15%
and several sigma for most heavy elements and I don’t accept
uncorroborated SIMS at all.  It may be possible to accept lower shifts
by NAA if it can be shown that the element in question never deviates
from the literature value of isotope distribution no matter what its
source;
or if the NAA gamma structure allows multiple confirmations of isotopic
distribution (i.e., multiple gamma lines) with high confidence.
There is some possibility that Mizuno or Miley may have something, but
I think I would like to see more before concurring with their
contentions.
So there is some positive evidence, but it is still resting on some
shaky assumptions. In any case, non-transmutation mechanisms, such as
unexpected isotope separation should also be kept open, rather than
limiting the options to nuclear transmutations or nothing...
[End of extracts from Kennel critique]

Subject:  Forsley: Analyzing Nuclear Ash spring, 1998 email version
    Date:  Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:50:27 -0500
   From:  Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
       To:  Vortex-L eskimo.com

June 2, 1998

I'm including my paper for you to freely retransmit.  Please cite that
this work was presented at the 1998 International Cold Fusion Conference

VII, in Vancouver, BC, Canada, April 1998.   The Conference Proceedings
are available for $50. from Eneco in Salt Lake City, UT at 801-583-2000.

Thanks for your interest!

Larry  [Dr. Lawrence P.G. Forsley]

Analyzing Nuclear Ash from the Electrocatalytic Reduction of
Radioactivity in Uranium and Thorium

Lawrence Forsley, Robert August, Jacob Jorne, Jay Khim, Fred Mis; and
Gary Phillips 1

JWK International Corporation, Suite 800, 7617 Little River Turnpike,
Annandale, VA 22003 USA   LForsley jwk.com

Abstract

A proprietary electrolytic system for the reduction of radioactivity in
uranium and thorium was evaluated from June through December 1996. An
exhaustive analysis of reaction materials taken before, during and
after the experiments was carried out. These tests involved trace metals

analysis via Neutron Activation Analysis (NAA),
Energy Dispersive Atomic X-ray (EDAX) analysis
and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass
Spectroscopy (ICP/MS).
Additional tests involved high resolution mass spectroscopy of
evolved gasses and reaction products, allowing isotopic
differentiation, and high resolution gamma spectroscopy. Neutrons were
searched for via 235U fission fragments and n-g reactions.

The results of over 10 series of runs were ambiguous. However, the
definitive test: operating a system in a low background cave with high
resolution gamma spectroscopy, failed to show any radioactive reduction
of the system as a whole. Regardless of these results, the testing
protocols developed define the standard and rigor by which any proposed
catalytically reduced radioactive system must be subjected. It is
crucial that statistically significant results be obtained, including
the statistical uniformity of the matrix composition, as otherwise
comparisons will be impossible and the conclusions drawn will be
erroneous. [end of extract from Forsley report]

July 22, 1998  Rich Murray  Room For All  rmforall earthlink.net
1943  Otowi Road  Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cell

Yesterday, Los Alamos National Lab Library received the July "Fusion
Technology," with "Detection of anamolous elements, x-ray, and excess
heat in a D2-Pd system and its interpretation by the electron-induced
nuclear reaction model," Y. Iwamura [iwamura atrc.mhi.co.jp], T. Itoh,
N. Gotoh, I. Toyoda, "Fusion Technology, 33, July, 1998, p. 476-492,
Received Sept. 8, 1997, Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi
Heavy Industries, Ltd, 1-8-1, Sachiura, Kanazawa-ku, Yokohama 236,
Japan.

On May 8, Eliot Kennel [ekennel compuserve.com], an experienced
researcher who had spent two years working closely with CF researchers
in Japan, posted a long and detailed critical summary of ICCF-7: "I was
disappointed by a presentation by Ohmori, in which he claimed that some
anomalous effect occurred during high current electrolysis, at which
point the electrode becomes hot and generates a plasma.  A fantastic
neutron flux (106 n/sec) was claimed, but then Ohmori admitted that
this might be due to electromagnetic noise from the plasma.
Since he is not dead from radiation poisoning, the latter explanation is

likely.  It seems to me that this is probably
nothing more than the burnout heat
flux (at a certain point, the heat transfer coefficient decreases,
which causes the surface to heat up, which causes the heat transfer
coefficient to further decrease, and so on.  This causes flash boiling,
similar to what Ohmori observed).
The low quality of this paper frankly
shocked me, and may cause me to re-evaluate the isotope shift papers
by the Hokkaido University group.
My confidence in their research has been thoroughly shaken.
Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) was disappointing, as they reported
non-reproducible results which have the definite appearance of
electronic noise.  Several papers from China also fit into this
category."

Iwamura et al apply 20-40 W from a round 1.2 cm Pt anode to a square Pd
cathode, 25X25X1 mm, at 1-3A in a 1 M LiOD/D2O electrolyte for
week-long runs.  The bottom side of the Pd cathode mounts to a vacuum
chamber with an O-ring gasket.  The cell seems to be about 6 cm
diameter, if their drawing is to scale,
with the vacuum chamber 4 cm high, and the
cell 5.5 cm high.
A Pt recombiner was tested to be >99 % efficient.  Five
turns of a cooling tube, perhaps stainless steel,
plated with 10 micron Au,
conducts "pure water" for mass flow calorimetry.  At the start of each
run, Ar gas is put above the electrolyte at 1 atm.  The vacuum pumping
speed of the turbo molecular pump is 50 L/s-- is that constant?  The
electrolytic cell is Teflon, with all its internal parts coated with
sprayed Teflon.  The composition of the vacuum cell is not given.
Two NaI scintillation counters monitor the cell from outside, while in
the vacuum a third one is mounted in the base, pointing about 2 cm from
the Pd cathode.  A He-3 neutron detector is outside the base of the
cell.  Data are logged every 20 s, and the energy spectrum of X rays
every 6 hours.  Pressures in the cell and in the vacuum are monitored,
and used to estimate the loading of the Pd, which reaches .8 in a day
[8.64X10E4 s], but no independent measures of loading are given.

Fig. 3 shows two graphs of electrolytic vs vacuum pressures, for two
almost identical 3.3 day runs.  Page 479: "However, it is easy to see
that the absorpion and desorpion of deuterium are entirely different,
which suggests that the absorpion and desorption behavior of deuterium
is greatly influenced by unspecified factors,i.e. , metallurgical
conditions such as impurity and defects in Pd."

I think I know what the "unspecified factors" are-- leaks.
EV29 shows a leak that lets gas into the vacuum,
producing a steady state pressure,
regardless of increasing electrolytic pressure.  The trace becomes a
thick line, indicating a rapidly fluctuating leak.  EV34 shows an
initial leak that somehow got plugged, allowing the vacuum to be
restored.

We've run into O-ring seals recently, with the ill-fated Cincinnati
Group.  A little thermal expansion, some reuse of the apparatus, and,
voila!, data stew!  Pd is well known to expand and crack with high
loading.

Probably, they have only one possible case of an element anomaly: Ti on
the electrolytic surface of palladium sample EV27.  Toward the end of
my three-hour session, I realized, with a distinct shock, that the
cooling tube, probably Cu or stainless steel,
plated with a delicate 10 micron Au film,
wound five times around the perimeter of the electrolyte, was
perhaps 80 cm long, with surface area about 40--100 cm2.  I suppose the
cell was used again and again, and with an accumulation of scratchs,
electrochemical corrosion between the gold and the metal would release
all kinds of ions during the days of operation.  They found a layer of
stuff, full of Ti, with a thickness from .2 to 3 microns, a 15-fold
range, in a disk of deposition 1.2 cm wide, which had, "...estimated
increased Ti mass is about 21 micrograms."   It could just as easily be
five-fold less. Why not do a chemical extraction and assay to determine
the exact mass of Ti?

Page 482: "Of course, we did not add any Ti to the electrolyte or the Pd

and Pt electrodes."
 But, what if an overzealous underling did?  These things happen.

The calorimetry is inadequate, with no insulation mentioned or
depicted, and the 25X25X1 mm Pd cathode freely radiating any excess
heat into the vacuum chamber, with a large heat sink, a cylinder of Pb
(mass?) with 2.5 cm thick walls.  Table III lists the largest Excess
Heat as: max 3.2 W, about 7.5 to 15 % of the "20W to 40W" input power
range-- but this seems to be just a temporary fluctuation.
Fig. 8 has a histogram of excess heat distributions,
showing values ranging from +3.5 to -1.5 W,
for sample EV39, giving a mean of +1.14 W, a spurious 3-digit
accuracy.  The statistical significance of this value is not given.

The method for calculating D/Pd loading very much needs to be checked
by independent measurements.  Probably, the loading would vary greatly
across the plate, which could be a good feature, if reactions happen
only at certain values.  They assume, for one, that the flow is not
spotty across the plate.

The X-ray data on p. 480 is their strongest suit--
but is there only one case of radiation below the cathode plate?
Days of 50 counts per second
bursts sound convincing at first, but there seems to be no replication
available in their data set.  Did they try and fail to replicate the
X-ray result?  Fig. 5 of "Simultanous detection" by the two NaI
detectors might be from sparks and glow discharges from minute leakage
of D2, D2O, and Ar.  Only an interval of .2 from 1.55 to 1.75 X 10E5  s
is shown, and the matching lines are in an interval of .03 from about
1.65 to 1.68 X 10E5 s, from a run perhaps as long as 6 X 10E5 s.
This is rather select data,
considering the novelty and importance of the claim.

Table II shows via ICP/MS a large range for the largest impurity,
Fe, in three used Pd cathode samples:  260, 210, 30 ppm.
Nothing is said about this,
while much is made of the 8-fold excess of Ti for sample EV
27.  What is the actual amount of the cathode analyzed?  Of the eight
impurities from three used Pd cathodes, namely, Ca, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni Cu,
Pt, and Au, only Fe, Cu, and Au are higher in one or two of the used
samples than in the two unused samples: these three elements may come
from the cooling tube, which may be copper or stainless steel, plated
with a frail 10 micron layer of Au.

Page 486: "Another point to consider is that Ti atoms are not always
detected.  Sometimes, other elements are found, such as Si, Au, Pb, Cr,
Cu, Fe, and so on; and sometimes, no elements are detected even though
the experimental conditions are almost the same.  In addition, the
quantities of the detected elements vary.  As is visible to the naked
eye, the shades of the black circle are different every time; sometimes
the circle corresponding to the shape of the Pt anode looks brown or
metallic."  Stainless steel can supply Si, Cr, Cu, and Fe.  Complex,
variable corrosion of the cooling tube and other components can
inexplicably supply various impurities over the several dozen or so
runs.

I will now move through the report in sequence:

Electrolyte:  mass, Ph, volume, accumulation of impurities?

Palladium plate: mass, before and after runs?
Shape changes, corrosion, subtle leaks?

Recombiner: mass, trace elements?

Cooling pipe: dimensions, composition, mass before and after runs,
trace elements in cooling pipe and Au film, corrosion, subtle leaks?

Coolant flow rate:  values, constancy, accuracy of measurement,
exact composition of fluid, how long used, mass, trace elements, any
accumulation of impurities over time, exposure of fluid to heat sources
and impurities outside the cell, bubbles, suds?  Accumulated gunk that
slows down the pump?

Thermocouples: type, accuracy, constancy, placement inside cooling tube
or on outside, insulation, actual values for solution, gas, recombiner?

Teflon: mass before and after runs, condition after runs, any deposits
of gunk or absorbed gases, actual permeability of sprayed Teflon on
wires, shape changes, thermal expansion, subtle leaks?  How often is
cell reused?  Scott Little in testing the CETI RIFEX cell, found that
impurities from one run could contaminate successive runs.

Pressure in electrolyte and vacuum: accuracy, actual values, constancy,
any evidence of subtle leaks?

A subtle leak could release D2, D2O, and Ar into the vacuum.  Any mass
or shape changes in the O-ring gasket?  Was the gasket reused?  Did its
appearance change?  Teflon is an excellent insulator-- any evidence for
static electricity buildup in the vacuum or on the Pb cylinder, or on
the outer surface of the cell, since glow, corona, or spark discharges
could cause spurious signals in the NaI detectors?  Any 10-100 volt
potentials available from the detectors or other electronics?

NaI scintillator abd He-3 neutron detectors: sensitivity at various
energies, reliability, known characteristic weaknesses, size and shape,
mass, voltages, actual background in detail throughout whole history of
experiments for years, calibration with known sources, diffusion and
attenuation of any radiation within and from cell, actual values and
history of electric noise?

Al, MgO, etc. coatings: purity, trace radioactivity?  K-40 is a common,
radioactive isotope.  Th-232?
How much did these coatings impede D2 gas flow?

D/Pd ratio:  Any checks by other methods?  Accuracy,
reliability, precision, stability, fluctuations, impurity effects,
accumulation of impurities on plate and in electrolyte, size and shape
changes in plate due to high loading, subtle leaks, spotty flow through
plate, bubbles on plate, outgassing bursts, temperature spikes?

D/Pd analysis, Fig. 2:  One hour is 3.6 X 10E3 sec, one day is 8.64 X
10E4 sec.  What happens over the several days of the run?  What are the
exact values for a typical stretch of time?

X-ray events, Fig. 4:  Mean background (B.G.) 3.55 counts per sec, 17
counts per minute, which is 2.4 million counts in 600,000 sec.  Why the
lack of counts for a day during the middle of the week?  How many
cumulative counts are in the peaks that rise to as much as 60
counts per sec?
The energy spectrum, total counts at each energy level
(how wide is this energy interval?) indicates 100,000 counts at about 10

keV, which is 1 every 6 seconds,
far below background, and about 1 count in
100 minutes at 50 keV, very far below background.  Above 100 keV the
signal merges into the background at ~1000 counts at each energy. How
typical is this kind of data pattern?  Page 479: "Note that a
characteristic X-ray (k-alpha, beta) of Pd (~21 keV) was not observed."

How many samples were run, and how about summaries about each and every
run?

Simultaneous detection, Fig. 5: Page 480: "We observed this kind of
X-ray emission many times (more than 20).  In these cases, nuclear
reactions must occur on the electrolyte side of the Pd."  Linked
electronics, rf interference, sparks?  The background for # 2 is about
14 cps, and for # 3 about 15 cps.  Are the apparent coincidences the
only ones for this run?  Exactly how many other runs?  Detailed
coincident data for all 20+ runs?

Neutron data, Fig. 6:  Is the spike the only one in that run?  The two
X-ray graphs show background of 14 cps, and no X-ray coincidences for a
13.9 hour period.  There seems to be no credible evidence for any
neutron emission: page 480: "Figure 6 shows the correlation between
neutron and X-ray emission and indicates that the neutron and X-ray
emission do not correspond.  However, X-rays 2 and 3 are relatively
high when the neutron bursts. [sic]  It is considered that certain
physical conditions that cause nuclear reactions
were satisfied at about the time
of the neutron bursts...Because of the weak correlation between
the neutrons and X rays [sic], in addition to the low reproducibility of

neutron emissions, it is certain that
the neutrons and X rays [sic] are
produced by different nuclear reactions."  Fig. 6 shows a sharp neutron
count rate peak of 0.7 cps, above a
background of about 0.05 to 0.1 cps:
the peak is an interval of about .1 X 10E5 s
during an interval of 13.9 hours from 2.5 to 3.0 X 10E5 s.

Excess heat: Page 481:  "...therefore excess heat is a few percent of
the input power."  This a meaningless claim, unless the calorimetry is
extremely competent.  What are voltage, resistance, current, and input
power, and how precise and constant are these values? Any apparent
correlations are therefore meaningless. Increased current can raise the
temperature of the cell and cause all sorts of artifacts.  For instance,

bubble accumulation on the plate could cause apparent heat changes,
and sudden release of these bubbles
can cause apparent heat bursts.  The
plate is horizontal.  How much stirring was caused by bubbling?
 At 3 A, the current density for a plate of 6.25 cm2 area is about
.5 A per cm2.
Was the electrolyte stratified into different temperature zones at
times, and then stirred?  How great are the temperature differences
within the electrolyte at different times?

Fig. 8 shows a frequency histogram of excess heat.  Why a dip at 1.5 W?
The comparison with the shape of the histogram for a different sample,
with a five-fold greater frequency, is without meaning. Using these
meaningless correlations, the authors say, page 481: "Up to now we
observed excess heat generation several times; however, we could not
see any clear relations between excess heat generation and X-ray
emission...Judging from these results, we might consider that excess
heat and x-rays are generated by different nuclear reactions."

The reader by now may be familiar with this pattern of extracting
correlations about "nuclear reactions" from random data sets.

Page 482: "Excess heat of about 1 W lasted for 1 day in the case of
EV27, although x-ray and neutron were not detected."  This is 2.5 % of
40 W input power, an absolutely meaningless result, given the poor
quality of the calorimetry.

Page 487, "EV8 is the sample that emitted continuous long-term X rays.
[sic].  The elements Ca, Cr, Fe, Pt, Ti, and O are detected [by EDX and
WDX, Fig. 17] on the black circle on the surface of the electrolyte
side.  As these results indicate, a correlation between these elements
detected on the Pd and nuclear products or excess heat is not clear at
present."

Table 3, Summary of Multi-Layer Cathode Experiments:  Why is so little
data given?  The excess heats given, are maximums, as large as 3.2 W,
only a meaningless small fraction of input power.  What is the
integrated excess heat?  What do the simultanous x-ray graphs actually
look like?  How common are "Simultaneous detection", claimed in five of
the six runs?

Of the 11 references, 5 are to Iwamura reports at International Cold
Fusion Conferences, and 3 to reports by
Mizuno, Ohmori, and Miley, which also
are unable to withstand scrutiny.
*********************************************************











From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 05:15:35 2000
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Vo:

While we are setting the record straight, Tom Malloy has a misconception
below:


> For those of you Vortexians who have trouble understanding my lack of
> upset with Randell Mills' alleged plagiarism, you have to understand
> that I'm used to dealing with inventors, and being tolerant of their
> eccentricities. Eccentric, is a polite term for doing things like
> screwing investors, swapping wives,"borrowing" other people's work,
> and generally being difficult to work with. As a general rule, the
> better the inventor the more eccentric they are. The exception to
> that rule being a selfless academic like Otto Schmitt.
>
> I emailed Randy and pointed out that: It's not what you do, it's what
> you get caught at,  if you are going to use someone else's work you
> should at least rewrite it. If you copy one person it plagiarism, if
> you copy from 10 it's research.
>
> I received the following reply.
>
> Thomas,
> Having returned from vacation, I found the basis of your
> e-mail.  I hope
> that you read my HSG response to the accusation of plagiarism.  I copied
> some familiar work in order to criticize it, not to claim it as mine.  I
> referenced all work of others.
>
> Thanks for the heads up
>
> Randy
------------------------------------------Misconception below:
Randy has never written for Infinite Energy. I did a review of his recent
work for IE a while back. All statements in that article are my own. While I
talked with Randy about it, and sent him a courtesy copy of it, he has never
endorsed it in any way. Randy has maintained a careful distance from the
Cold Fusion world and I stated that distance in my article.

Mike Carrell

>
> I've been reading Randell's article in Infinite Energy. I agree that
> the major corporations who invested in BLP would have done so without
> seeing energy produced. While I don't know much about physics, and
> consequently am easy to impress, I was impressed with the rest of the
> article.  I am also faced with the very unpleasant prospect of
> spending $1500 on natural gas over the next six months heating my
> house. I've been urging Randy to get busy on the home heating unit.
>
> Thomas
-----------------------------------
I believe it can now be said that the existence proof of CF has been settled
with the work of McKubre and other current work in Japan. There is some
movement toward commercialization, but it looks like this is going to move
very slowly for lack of capitalization. Randy and BLP are better
capitalized, but the road to really useful home heating units, for example,
may be a decade or more long. Having worked in a large high-tech industry, I
have seen how long commercial development can take, even with substantial
funds and teams of well-qualified engineers at work -- and that was in an
are where the basic technology was understood.

Mike





>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 06:43:29 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Kennel: flaws in 1998 Iwamura report  10.29.00
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Rich Murray quoted Kennel, who is always full of crap:

>Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
>(MHI) was disappointing, as they reported non-reproducible results
>which have the definite appearance of electronic noise....

The results are 100% reproducible.


>This seems very weak to me, since it is impossible to show that the
>system was really clean before the experiment.

That's ridiculous. Why is it "impossible"? It isn't easy, but you can 
inventory all of the elements in all cell components. Iwamura found, for 
example, that there was ten times more of some elements on the cathode 
surface than in the electrodes, wires, call walls and electrolyte combined.


>Moreover, electrolysis cells are often used to clean up
>liquid waste streams, because all positive ions plate out on the
>cathode.

That is why they did gas loading experiments as well. And that is why they 
used  in-situ spectroscopy, leaving the sample in the chamber undisturbed.


>So the fact that a few milligrams of positive ionic
>crud appears on the cathode, is not surprising to me.
>The presence of isotopic shift seems much more important.  If the
>cathodic crud is always the same abundance as normal material,
>it is very likely chemical contamination, since the cold fusion process,

And as Iwamura said, again and again, the isotopes are shifted by an order 
of magnitude or more in some case, far beyond instrument error or the kind 
of artifact that can be produced by SIMS, if they were using SIMS, which 
they are not.

I expect Rich Murray will do what he always does, and he will go on 
repeating  this garbage uncritically again, and again, and again, and post 
it all over Internet, without correction. He seems to believe his role in 
life to propagate confusion, misinformation and stupid lies about cold fusion.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 07:38:11 2000
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You don't see many of these in the West, do you Hank?

Great pictures.  

 http://www.nycoveredbridges.org/

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 09:14:15 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New York Covered Bridges
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 17:11:40 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:33:56 -0800, "Frederick Sparber"
<fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>You don't see many of these in the West, do you Hank?
>
>Great pictures.  
>
> http://www.nycoveredbridges.org/

Nice site.  But "West" of where?  As I recall, there was a movie made
of a certain covered bridge not too far from me (about 1200 miles West
of NY).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 09:30:32 2000
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dean T. Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: New York Covered Bridges

Dean from West of  The Mississippi wrote:


> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:33:56 -0800, "Frederick Sparber"
> <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >You don't see many of these in the West, do you Hank?
> >
> >Great pictures.  
> >
> > http://www.nycoveredbridges.org/
> 
> Nice site.  But "West" of where?  

Would you believe, West of the Pecos?   :-)

> As I recall, there was a movie made
> of a certain covered bridge not too far from me (about 1200 miles West
> of NY).

Right, Clint Eastwood and Meryl Steep, The Bridges of Madison County.
I Forgot.   :-)

Sorry about that,

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 11:45:33 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, iwamura@atrc.mhi.co.jp
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: Kennel: flaws in 1998 Iwamura report  10.29.00
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At 9:40 AM 10/30/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Rich Murray quoted Kennel, who is always full of crap:
>
>>Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
>>(MHI) was disappointing, as they reported non-reproducible results
>>which have the definite appearance of electronic noise....
>
>The results are 100% reproducible.
>
>
>>This seems very weak to me, since it is impossible to show that the
>>system was really clean before the experiment.
>
>That's ridiculous. Why is it "impossible"? It isn't easy, but you can
>inventory all of the elements in all cell components. Iwamura found, for
>example, that there was ten times more of some elements on the cathode
>surface than in the electrodes, wires, call walls and electrolyte combined.


It is sufficient proof of cell "cleanliness" that the experiment is
reproducible, since differing cathode materials yield differing but
repeatable results.  The differing cathode materials act as controls for
each other.  It would also be good (single run) evidence of cleanliness to
run a pair of cathodes of differing materials located in the same cell each
carrying the same current, with each cathode obtaining differing isotopic
ratios for a given element in the cathode depositions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 12:20:59 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Kennel: flaws in 1998 Iwamura report  10.29.00
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>It is sufficient proof of cell "cleanliness" that the experiment is
>reproducible, since differing cathode materials yield differing but
>repeatable results.  The differing cathode materials act as controls for
>each other.  It would also be good (single run) evidence of cleanliness to
>run a pair of cathodes of differing materials located in the same cell each
>carrying the same current, with each cathode obtaining differing isotopic
>ratios for a given element in the cathode depositions.

Good point. Different cathodes have been used. They all Pd on the bottom, 
and then a layer of other material selected because it has a high work 
function, and then on top a thin layer of Pd. The material in the middle is 
usually CaO or Y2O3. Furthermore, they have done numerous blank experiments 
with hydrogen instead of deuterium, in both the liquid and gas phase 
experiments. The blank experiments never produce excess heat, a large 
amount of new elements (beyond expected contamination), or isotope shifts. 
The contamination hypothesis was ruled out years ago.

After his lecture, I chatted with Iwamura. That's one of the nice things 
about a conference with only 35 participants. He said, "people have said 
this might be contamination, and some have even suggested that we somehow 
faked these results. I would like to know where you find this kind of 
contamination, or alternatively how anyone can fake an isotope shift. If 
you have a method of producing these materials, it is important no matter 
what it is, how you do it, or what you call it." He meant that the name 
cold fusion is controversial, and that you cannot "fake" an isotope shift 
which has been confirmed by multiple independent labs.

By the way, this information about the blank experiments, different cathode 
materials, and isotope shifts was available to Kennel when he wrote that 
nonsense. Except for the part about the gas phase experiments. I do not 
think he accidentally overlooked these aspects, I think he deliberately 
left them out of his account in order to give his readers a false 
impression, and I suspect the same of Murray. I do not understand the 
psychology of these people. Why do they do this? What do they hope to 
accomplish?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 12:47:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:43:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Kennel: flaws in 1998 Iwamura report  10.29.00
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I wrote:

>Good point. Different cathodes have been used. They all Pd on the bottom, 
>and then a layer of other material selected because it has a high work 
>function, and then on top a thin layer of Pd. . . .

I should add that previously they used the highest purity Pd they could 
find, 99.9999%, without a layer of other metal. This seldom produced heat 
or transmutations. This is another kind of blank experiment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 13:05:46 2000
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Thanks for the report, it sounds like they are more succesfully active than
>we are here.  I've been too busy eating pork cutlet and watching raunchy
>movies myself to surf the Japenese websites, but I was wondering if you ever
>noticed a grassroots alternative energy movement there, like there is here.
>In an earlier report, you mentioned that you had seen scads of rooftop,
>passive solar bathwater heaters the last time you were there, and another
>guy on the FreeNRG Group said that he saw a bunch of them in Crete when he
>was on his last vacation, as well.  They make a lot of sense, as do a lot of
>other alternatives, and we either just don't have them here, or the vast
>majority of people just don't use them.

The role of government and grassroots organizations in energy conservation 
in Japan is unclear to me. It is not apparent how much they accomplish, and 
there are not many controversies about government policy, except for 
fission and the ill-fated breeder reactor program.

In the 1960s, I have heard that the government played a prominent role in 
switching the whole nation over to fluorescent light bulbs instead of 
incandescent lights. (They were small, circular bulbs, probably 30 cm in 
diameter, not as small as today compact lights.) The government charges 
high taxes on fuel use, as in Europe. Beyond that, not many initiatives are 
needed, because people are acutely aware of the need for energy 
conservation and pollution control, because they have few natural resources 
and population density is so high.

Rooftop solar water heaters have been widespread for decades, at least 
since the 1960s and probably before. They are simple, cheap and reliable, 
and well suited to the Japanese lifestyle. The ones I have seen are used 
for only one purpose: to heat the bathwater. You turn on the tap, cold 
water goes up into the heat, and the hot water gushes down into the tub. On 
a summer afternoon it is scalding hot at first, before it starts to mix 
with the incoming tap water. The bath constitutes the major domestic use of 
hot water. As any visitor to Japan soon learns, the bath tubs are large and 
the water is H-O-T hot! People wash outside the tub, and everyone in the 
family uses the same hot water. It is often left in the tub overnight and 
pumped into the clothes washing machine the next day, or it least it was 
back in 1975. Most houses then did not have central hot water heaters, or 
central space heating for that matter. The baths are all fitted with gas, 
kerosene or wood burners, to heat the water on winter days or reheat it in 
the evening. With an old fashioned bath, the burner is directly underneath 
it, like a cartoon cannibal cooking pot, and in modern baths the firebox is 
next to the tub, with two pipes connecting them. The hot water mixes by 
convection. The only other source of hot water in the house was a small gas 
fired, wall mounted gadget in the kitchen which heats the water as it is 
used. Those things all work differently, or not at all.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 20:45:45 2000
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My fellow Vortexians

Have you ever seen the graphic, I believe it was done as a TRW ad. 
The title was things aren't what they used to be. It features several 
men; one of them  the commissioner of the PTO in the late nineteenth 
century, his quote was  "everything that can be invented has been 
invented." Then there was a scientist Lord Calvin as I recall, 
commenting that, "obtaining energy from the nucleus of the atom is 
impossible." then there was a quote from a politician saying that 
"the average woman doesn't want the right to vote," There was another 
scientist commenting that there was "no possibility of heavier that 
air flight." finially there was a sports commentator saying that ( 
Babe ) Ruth made a big mistake when he gave up the outfield.

Well it's occurred that someone could make a similar graphic out of 
Robert Parks' stupid remarks. Lets see; there's "I don't want to hear 
about isotopic ratios." "magnets don't affect healing." "homeopathic 
remedies are pseudoscience."

Do any of you like this idea? While Parks has attacked all three 
fields, the last two "quotes" are paraphrases. I'd like to send an 
email to the good professor and introduce myself. I assume that he is 
proud enough of his knotheaded remarks to go along with the idea. All 
of you are encouraged to suggest any missguided remarks that you know 
of for possible submission.

Thomas Malloy

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 30 22:01:19 2000
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 10.30.00
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Murray: Rothwell: Heffner: contamination from Iwamura cooling tube?
10.30.00

Hello,  Jed Rothwell and Horace Heffner have responded with energy to
my long critical post about the 1998 Iwamura cold fusion research.  If
someone will send me their more recent reports, I will be glad to apply
my limited competence to see whether the major flaws that I fancy are
obvious in 1998 are still being repeated, as I expect-- but I would be
very happy to be persuaded otherwise by the facts.  This quote from my
July 22 1998 critique mentions one obvious major source of
contamination in their electrochemical cells:

"Probably, they have only one possible case of an element anomaly: Ti on

the electrolytic surface of palladium sample EV27.  Toward the end of
my three-hour session, I realized, with a distinct shock, that the
cooling tube, probably Cu or stainless steel,
plated with a delicate 10 micron Au film,
wound five times around the perimeter of the electrolyte, was
perhaps 80 cm long, with surface area about 40--100 cm2.  I suppose the
cell was used again and again, and with an accumulation of scratchs,
electrochemical corrosion between the gold and the metal would release
all kinds of ions during the days of operation.  They found a layer of
stuff, full of Ti, with a thickness from .2 to 3 microns, a 15-fold
range, in a disk of deposition 1.2 cm wide, which had, "...estimated
increased Ti mass is about 21 micrograms."   It could just as easily be
five-fold less. Why not do a chemical extraction and assay to determine
the exact mass of Ti?"

If Iwamura's papers were published in full on the Net, then many people
could carry on a public, archived debate to verify their excellence, and

this debate could be published in Infinite Energy magazine.

Rich Murray  Room For All  rmforall earthlink.net
1943  Otowi Road   Santa Fe, New Mexico  87505
505-986-9103   505-920-6130 cell
*****************************************************

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Krieg: many skeptical reports on BlackLight Power claims 10.30.00

http://www.phact.org/e/blp.htm

eric voicenet.com
****************************************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 31 11:00:23 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Heffner: contamination from Iwamura
  cooling tube?   10.30.00
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Rich Murray quotes some other idiot:

"Probably, they have only one possible case of an element anomaly: Ti on

>the electrolytic surface of palladium sample EV27.  Toward the end of
>my three-hour session, I realized, with a distinct shock, that the
>cooling tube, probably Cu or stainless steel,
>plated with a delicate 10 micron Au film,
>wound five times around the perimeter of the electrolyte, was
>perhaps 80 cm long, with surface area about 40--100 cm2.

So, this person, having suffered a distinct shock, went on to announce this 
problem to the world via Internet, without bothering to raise his hand and 
ask Iwamara what the cooling tube is made of. Without stopping to think, 
for that matter. Consider:

1. Who says the pipe is made from metal? It looks like Teflon to me, since 
I can see the light coming through it from the back of the photo.

2. In any case, it says "all experimental parts such as electric wires . . 
. are coated with Teflon." Surely that would include the pipes, even 
assuming anyone would stupid enough to make them out of copper. You cannot 
casually "scratch" Teflon. I have seen Mizuno attack experimental grade 
Teflon with a blow torch, without breaking the seal around the cathode lead.

3. Why didn't this genius, in his moment of sublime epiphany, bother to 
raise his hand and ask Iwamura? He was right there at the time, after all. 
It would be less trouble than he took to write and post this nonsense.

4. They have been doing these experiments since 1993. They have never seen 
anomalous elements or heat with light water, and seldom with pure Pd. 
Assume for the sake of argument that the pipe is copper, even though it is 
translucent. What magical ability does heavy water have over the alleged 
metal? Why does the choice of cathodes affect the pipe? How can the 
addition of 5000 angstroms of other metal below the surface of the cathode 
(that is, below the top layer of Pd), cause this remarkable effect with 
100% reproducibility?

5. How does this amazing ability also change the isotopes?

6. How does it cause 3 to 4 watts of excess heat, or is that just a 
fantastic coincidence?

7. And, finally, a unfair question, since Mr. Genius has not heard about 
the more recent experiments, unless he has read my report, which I doubt. 
Why does the very same effect occur in gas loaded cells, with no cooling tube?


>If Iwamura's papers were published in full on the Net, then many people
>could carry on a public, archived debate to verify their excellence, and
>
>this debate could be published in Infinite Energy magazine.

Iwamura's papers will published in due course somewhere like the JJAP, the 
second most prestigeous physics journal in the world. Publishing this 
so-called "debate" in the pages of Infinite Energy would be a travesty and 
an insult to the intelligence of our readers. This is no debate. We have an 
ignorant, foolish, lazy person speculating and jumping to conclusions, 
based on nothing more than a passing fancy. These mistakes could have been 
corrected years ago by paying a little attention to the literature or 
asking a few questions, but "skeptics" never do that.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 31 15:06:08 2000
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On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:19:50PM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> [stuff cut]... People like me have enjoyed bicycles since 
> 1870, before they invented cars, and we will still be riding bicycles when 

I took you to be a rather younger man Jed ;o)

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 31 16:42:34 2000
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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:38:11 -0400
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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>Randy has never written for Infinite Energy. I did a review of his recent
>work for IE a while back. All statements in that article are my own. While I
>talked with Randy about it, and sent him a courtesy copy of it, he has never
>endorsed it in any way. Randy has maintained a careful distance from the
>Cold Fusion world and I stated that distance in my article.
>
>Mike Carrell

Randy has never written for Infinite Energy, but we carried a long 
interview with him in Issue #17 that was obtained independently by Art 
Rosenblum.

Gene Mallove

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To: "James&Lynne" <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Static Electricity, Light Leptons (-) or Electrons
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Given that the  ~1.3 kilowatts/square meter Solar Insolation on the
Upper Atmosphere, may be creating Light Lepton (+/-) Pairs with
a Mass/Energy of ~ 0.20 to 27.2 ev where the LL- can attach to 
the O2 and H2O molecules and be carried to the Earth's surface
against the Fair-Weather Field gradient, it is possible that so-called
"Static Electricity" is Not Regular Electrons, but, Light Leptons
attached to good insulators and the "Scavengers (also insulators)
can sequester them when the work of rubbing is applied:

Electron Adsorbers (Insulators)             Electron  "Scavengers" 

        Fur (cat fur)                                        Rubber rod

         Hair - Wool                                        Rubber comb

           Amber                                                  Cloth

           Lucite                                                Polyethylene Film

           Glass                                                  Silk or Rubber 

Most, if not all of the Classical Electrostatics Experiments and Apparatus
i.e.., van de graaff , wimshurst etc., could work just as well with LLs as with Electrons
and set up high enough charge concentrations that Electrons/Ions could come
into play in sparks and lightning etc.

Regards,   Frederick





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Mike Carrell wrote;
>
>
>While we are setting the record straight, Tom Malloy has a misconception
>below:
>
>Randy has never written for Infinite Energy. I did a review of his recent
>work for IE a while back. All statements in that article are my own. While I
>talked with Randy about it, and sent him a courtesy copy of it, he has never
>endorsed it in any way. Randy has maintained a careful distance from the
>Cold Fusion world and I stated that distance in my article.

Mike; I thought the wording of the article was strange. I was 
impressed with the author's knowledge of physics.

>  Randy and BLP are better
>capitalized, but the road to really useful home heating units, for example,
>may be a decade or more long. Having worked in a large high-tech industry, I
>have seen how long commercial development can take, even with substantial
>funds and teams of well-qualified engineers at work -- and that was in an
>are where the basic technology was understood.

I'm disappointed with your ascessment of the time required to produce 
a heat generating unit based on BLP's technology


I'm disappointed with you accessment of the time required to 
commercialize the BLP technology.