From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  1 04:03:23 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "James&Lynne" <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Inductive Coupling of Light Leptons to Protons/Deuterons
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 04:58:50 -0800
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Subscribing to String/Superstring Theory that states that the
sub-atomic particles/quarks are length-only Strings or String Circles
the Electrons-Positrons and/or the Light Leptons (LL-)can couple to
the Stacked Groups of "hoops"/quarks in the Proton or Deuteron
and form the neutral P* or D* entity.

Since the LL- or the Quark radius, R = kq^2/(Eo+Eb) the quarks with
a radius of ~ 4.5E-18 meters and Energy (Eo) of ~ 312 Mev each, can share
their energy with the LL- with rest Energy (Eo) of ~ 0.20 ev to ~ 7,443 ev
and shrink it down to some energy while conserving angular momentum/spin
(mvr)and energy.
IOW, the high-energy quarks can share energy/mass by increasing in radius
while the LL- increases in mass while decreasing in radius, thus mvr is constant.

The binding energy (Eb) should correspond to the Potential, V = kq/R
which is given off as photons/heat as the LL- is "absorbed".

Since the 0.511 Mev Electron has a rest radius of ~ 2.81 Fermi, it is
not likely to couple as readily as the LL-. However, it does couple
in Electron "K Capture" by heavier nuclei , and it, and/or the Positron
are emitted in Beta decay.

With this scenario, it seems that the Deuteron (which has 8 quarks) will
form the Neutral D* entity more easily than the Proton which only
has 3 quarks will form the Neutral P* entity, which might explain why
the P* (Mills' Hydrino, or Case's Carbon-Pd?) formation produces heat, 
but no Cold Fusion reactions. 

Regards,     Frederick

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Mills' response
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----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Mills' response


> Mike Carrell wrote;
> >
> >
> >While we are setting the record straight, Tom Malloy has a misconception
> >below:
> >
> >Randy has never written for Infinite Energy. I did a review of his recent
> >work for IE a while back. All statements in that article are my own.
While I
> >talked with Randy about it, and sent him a courtesy copy of it, he has
never
> >endorsed it in any way. Randy has maintained a careful distance from the
> >Cold Fusion world and I stated that distance in my article.
>
> Mike; I thought the wording of the article was strange. I was
> impressed with the author's knowledge of physics.

Gene Mallove has noted that IE had published the text of an interview with
Mills. I had forgotten that. I don't know which Tom read.
>
> >  Randy and BLP are better
> >capitalized, but the road to really useful home heating units, for
example,
> >may be a decade or more long. Having worked in a large high-tech
industry, I
> >have seen how long commercial development can take, even with substantial
> >funds and teams of well-qualified engineers at work -- and that was in an
> >are where the basic technology was understood.
>
> I'm disappointed with your ascessment of the time required to produce
> a heat generating unit based on BLP's technology
>
> I'm disappointed with you accessment of the time required to
> commercialize the BLP technology.
>
Disappointment is an occupational hazard in R&D, not appreciated by those
who have not seen the process first hand.

I don't know what Tom Malloy's experience is. Mine is based on 38 years as a
principal member technical staff of the RCA corporation, where I was able to
view or participate in a number of start-ups, some of which had tens or
hundreds of millions of corporate investment. I've spent years working with
the production of TV picture tubes. Even though they are made by the tens of
millions, it is a constant struggle to keep the manufacturing process under
control. If you don't have some 95% yield at final test, the whole
enterprise is a very elaborate way to lose money.

BLP has already demonstrated heat production in the lab. Mills originally
postulated megawatt-level reactors as replacements for fossil-fuel boilers
in electric utilities. Before any utility CEO would commit to such a thing,
BLP would have to build and operate such a reactor for several years to
demonstrate it actual performance and shake the bugs out of it. Then there
would be satisfaction of various regulators and pressure groups about it's
safety, especially since it uses a process about which the scientific
community is in doubt, including the biological safety of hydrino compounds
as byproducts. This problem will be amplified before BLP reactors appear in
cars or home power units.

The battle over alternating current electricity has been discussed in Vortex
before Tom appeared on the scene. Jed
Rothwell has contributed insightful essays about aviation.

It's been over ten years since the F&P announcement, and there is no
commercially ready CF device, despite the Patterson demonstrations and the
work of Case, Arata, McKubre, Miley, and many others. This isn't easy.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  1 09:35:21 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:33:19 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
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I notice a continued trickle of posts to this thread, but, oddly, none of
them address the question that was originally raised here--to wit: what
possible explanation, other than plagiarism, can there be for the apparent
wholesale copying, without proper attribution, of material in Mills' book?

I find the pattern of comment odd because, when Jed Rothwell was posting
purely unsubstantiated gossip about Mills here, months ago, insinuating
that he was either a fraud, or insane, or both, a number of people were
eager to pontificate on the subject. But now that verifiable evidence has
emerged, thereby turning this into a proper subject for discussion, the
silence is deafening.

Could someone please explain to me why a discussion of pure gossip is OK
here, but a discussion of hard facts is not?

For the record, here is what I suspect: I think you guys have simply
concluded that Mills is guilty of attempting to take credit for the work of
others, and you feel embarassed for him, and are uncomfortable discussing
the topic. You have, in effect, convicted him without a trial.

Don't you think we at least owe the man the courtesy of a discussion,
before we reach such a damning conclusion? Who knows, maybe there is some
way these passages could have been copied without attribution due to an
innocent mistake. (I can't think of any, but I am open to suggestions.)

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  1 11:30:16 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>I find the pattern of comment odd because, when Jed Rothwell was posting
>purely unsubstantiated gossip about Mills here, months ago, insinuating
>that he was either a fraud, or insane, or both, a number of people were
>eager to pontificate on the subject.

Everything I said about his was a matter of public record, such as the fact 
that he purchased expensive office space with investment funds. I consider 
that scandalous behavior, but it is not illegal or fraudulent by any means. 
The stockholders know what he is doing with the money. If I were a 
stockholder, I would be outraged. It is my opinion that he is insane. I 
never said he is a fraud, although now that we know he is a plagiarist, 
that does seem somewhat likely, I guess. I have no other evidence of it.

What I say about Mills is damning enough; Jones should not put words in my 
mouth and pretend that I say other things about him.


>Could someone please explain to me why a discussion of pure gossip is OK
>here, but a discussion of hard facts is not?

No one here ever discussed gossip. I suppose the reason people do not 
comment on the plagiarism is because there is nothing more to be said about 
it. Obviously, Mills has proven himself an academic fraud. That is not such 
a terrible thing. It does not mean he is a business fraud. It does not mean 
his theory is wrong. It means he is unethical when it comes to academic 
standards and copyrights. I would say it means he is lazy and foolish, 
thinking he would not be caught. According to studies described in the New 
York Times and reports from friends of mine at the Georgia State U. biology 
department, many established scientists steal credit from subordinates, and 
many plagiarize material. I do not have any numbers, but it seems about as 
common and unsurprising as purchasing department employees accepting 
kickbacks from salesman. That happens so often it hardly makes the back 
pages of the business section.


>Don't you think we at least owe the man the courtesy of a discussion,
>before we reach such a damning conclusion?

Why? It is obvious that he is guilty of plagiarism. The evidence is 
overwhelming. So what? He is not important. So far his contributions to CF 
have been meager, unless it turns out his theory is correct.


>  Who knows, maybe there is some
>way these passages could have been copied without attribution due to an
>innocent mistake. (I can't think of any, but I am open to suggestions.)

That's absurd. How could it be an innocent mistake? And if it were, why 
wouldn't he just say so, apologize, and correct the on-line document?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  1 20:53:35 2000
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:51:52 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
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>----- Original Message -----
>
>
>  > Mike Carrell wrote;
>  > >
>  >
>Gene Mallove has noted that IE had published the text of an interview with
>Mills. I had forgotten that. I don't know which Tom read.

Volume 6 Issue 33 page 49. The article is excellent, I assumed that 
Randell was quite the physicist until I realized that entire sections 
were quotes from other publications. Where have I heard that before?
>
>I don't know what Tom Malloy's experience is. Mine is based on 38 years as a
>principal member technical staff of the RCA corporation,

I admit that I'm out of my depth here. I'm just a technician, if it 
worked in the first place, I can usually get it to work again. I'm 
also pretty good at hooking off the shelf componets together and 
getting them to work.

  But I look at it this way. the elements of a system to make this 
phenomena happen, electrolyzers, low pressure chambers, vacuum pumps 
and the support equipment to monitor the parameters and control them 
are all on the shelf. I suppose that a lot depends on how much energy 
can be produced by a chamber say the size of a 55 gallon drum, energy 
density. Do you of you Vortexians who are also on the HSG know 
anything about that.

>enterprise is a very elaborate way to lose money.

>True, nothing eats up money like high tech R&D and manufacture.

>
>BLP has already demonstrated heat production in the lab. Mills originally
>postulated megawatt-level reactors as replacements for fossil-fuel boilers
>in electric utilities. Before any utility CEO would commit to such a thing,
>BLP would have to build and operate such a reactor for several years to
>demonstrate it actual performance and shake the bugs out of it. Then there
>would be satisfaction of various regulators and pressure groups about it's
>safety, especially since it uses a process about which the scientific
>community is in doubt, including the biological safety of hydrino compounds
>as byproducts. This problem will be amplified before BLP reactors appear in
>cars or home power units.

I suppose that just venting the hydrinos into the atmosphere is out 
of the question. It's my experience that before one attempts to build 
a megawatt sized unit, it's a good idea to produce a machine that 
produces say 50K BTUs. Which is exactly that I suggested to Randy 
that he do. Such a unit would heat my house with water, and I could 
leave the windows open in January, which is cool I like fresh air. 
BTW this is the first that I've heard of hydrinos posing a potential 
health hazard by combining with chemicals in the environment, there's 
another issue for you people on the HSG to comment on.

>
>The battle over alternating current electricity has been discussed in Vortex
>before Tom appeared on the scene.

I'm well aware of Thomas Edison's efforts to stop AC, I seem to 
recall the subject being discussed on Vortex-L, what has this got to 
do with BLP? BTW Pat Bailey and I were just discussing Tesla's being 
written out of the history books. I contend that for some reason he 
is out of favor with the Invisible Government, but I don't want to go 
there.

>Jed
>Rothwell has contributed insightful essays about aviation.
>
>It's been over ten years since the F&P announcement, and there is no
>commercially ready CF device, despite the Patterson demonstrations and the
>work of Case, Arata, McKubre, Miley, and many others. This isn't easy.

As I understand it, the problem with commercializing CF is that 1 
part in 1,000,000 is expressed as heat. Solve that any you can start 
building a 50K BTU unit for this winter.
One of the Vortexians posted that even if I had to purchase pladanium 
to fuel my unit, the heat would be cheaper than that produced by 
natural gas, I'm skeptical about that, It's a mute point however 
unless someone can figure out how to capture the energy that appears 
to be converted into neutrinos, or prevent their formation in the 
first place.

>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  1 21:17:37 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mills' response
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 16:15:46 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:51:52 -0600:
[snip]
>  But I look at it this way. the elements of a system to make this 
>phenomena happen, electrolyzers, low pressure chambers, vacuum pumps 
>and the support equipment to monitor the parameters and control them 
>are all on the shelf. I suppose that a lot depends on how much energy 
>can be produced by a chamber say the size of a 55 gallon drum, energy 
>density. Do you of you Vortexians who are also on the HSG know 
>anything about that.

According to Mills' calculations, the energy density compares favourably
with existing power sources. The problem appears to be (IMO) getting enough
*active* volume.
[snip]
>I suppose that just venting the hydrinos into the atmosphere is out 
>of the question. It's my experience that before one attempts to build 

Maybe, maybe not. In any event, it would be a waste of perfectly good
hydrinos. :)
Besides, given the energy yield from the formation of even a first level
hydrino, fuel consuption/km would be very low (for a car), and so it
wouldn't be a problem to keep them on board.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  2 09:42:28 2000
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From: "Florek, Steven" <Steven.Florek omnikron.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:45:55 -0800 
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>Volume 6 Issue 33 page 49. The article is excellent, I assumed that 
>Randell was quite the physicist until I realized that entire sections 
>were quotes from other publications. Where have I heard that before? 

That is absolutely false.  The only issue involves textbook background
material that is being too liberally quoted in Mills' book for just a
regular footnote to be sufficient.  I will say it again--even in the
sections in question, there is in every case a reference to the appropriate
textbook.  The previous comments about unattributed material are
misinformed.  The problem is, when you quote several pages of text, a single
footnote is not sufficient by academic standards.

Mills' initial explanation was that he is often accused of misrepresenting
the "standard" physics, so he thought that quoting from unassailable
textbook sources and then writing commentary would be a valid approach.  He
also said that he certainly does not want the material from his references
that he disagrees with to be attributed to him!

Mills finally (after all his teeth had been pulled) said that he will make
it clearer exactly what he is doing in the next edition of his book.

>I suppose that just venting the hydrinos into the atmosphere is out 
>of the question. 

Since they are lighter than hydrogen and smaller than helium, they are
lighter than the atmosphere and diffuse into space.

>BTW this is the first that I've heard of hydrinos posing a potential 
>health hazard by combining with chemicals in the environment, there's 
>another issue for you people on the HSG to comment on. 

Hydrino reactions do not occur at normal environmental temperatures. 

Steven Florek 

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Subject: Re: Mills' response
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At 8:45 AM 11/2/0, Florek, Steven wrote:
[snip]
>The only issue involves textbook background
>material that is being too liberally quoted in Mills' book for just a
>regular footnote to be sufficient.  I will say it again--even in the
>sections in question, there is in every case a reference to the appropriate
>textbook.  The previous comments about unattributed material are
>misinformed.  The problem is, when you quote several pages of text, a single
>footnote is not sufficient by academic standards.
[snip]

Quoting brief passages of published copyrighted works, when the quotes are
properly attributed, and are for purposes of academic discussion, is
standard and permissable practice.  The objection to Mills' "quotes" was
that they go on for pages, include figures, and are incorporated in a work
published for sale.   It is my understanding that the posted objections
were (unless of course Mills has permission from the owners of the
copyrighted material) that this is more than just a simple violation of
academic standards.  I don't recall Mills responding to the copyright issue
which was discussed in some detail on the HSG list, and constituted the
serious part of the objections posted there.  Did he respond to those
objections?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
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>>----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>>  > Mike Carrell wrote;
>>  > >
>>  >
>>Gene Mallove has noted that IE had published the text of an interview with
>>Mills. I had forgotten that. I don't know which Tom read.
>
>Volume 6 Issue 33 page 49. The article is excellent, I assumed that
>Randell was quite the physicist until I realized that entire sections
>were quotes from other publications. Where have I heard that before?

***{Hi Thomas. Are you saying that when Mills speaks, other people's words
come out of his mouth? (The article you are talking about was an
*interview*, right?) If so, what specific other publications are you
talking about? (Page numbers would be nice, so I can check this for
myself.) If not, then are you merely saying that when he speaks, he uses
the same words that he used in his book?

If you are saying that *other people's words* come out of his mouth when he
speaks, then he may be an instance of what I refer to as a *memory retard*.
Such a person has a true photographic memory and, as a result, finds
himself overwhelmed by confusion whenever he attempts creative problem
solving. Since his conscious awareness includes all of his prior
experiences, including verbatim copies of every sentence, paragraph,
chapter, and book that he has ever read, there is a vast amount of
irrelevant material in his field of consciousness whenever he attempts to
solve any specific problem. Result: since the solving of novel problems
(i.e., of types that haven't been solved before) requires a finely-tuned
ability to sift out irrelevancies, such people are massively intellectually
handicapped, and have exactly *zero* chance of coming up with a useful
breakthrough in science or anywhere else. All they are good at is
regurgitating a professor's words at exam time. That means they obtain
effortless A's in most courses, and easily obtain advanced degrees, but
when called upon to actually function as a working scientist or engineer,
they are a bust.

And, appropos the issue at hand, such people tend to lose track of the
boundaries between their words and the words of others. They literally
cannot tell the difference because, when you get right down to it,
virtually none of the words they utter are their own--not in the sense that
the term is understood by people with normally functioning brains, at any
rate. To a normal person, *words* learned from others are the units of
speech, and are assembled according to the rules of language to convey
intended meanings, whereas to a memory retard, sentences, paragraphs, and
even entire chapters of material learned from others are the units which
are assembled together to convey meaning. This is simply the way their
minds work, and to expect them to be aware of boundaries and to make
appropriate use of quotation marks is utterly pointless. When such a person
writes a book, virtually everything in it is going to be copied,
essentially unaltered, from the works of others, because the units with
which his mind works are not words, but instead are sentences, paragraphs,
chapters, etc., from prior readings. If that is what is going on here, then
the chunks of borrowed material found by Aaron Barth are going to be merely
the tip of the iceberg. In that case, the more thoroughly you search, the
more extensive the base of prior literature to which you compare, the more
copied chunks of material you are going to find, up to the limiting case
where you will discover that there is not a single original sentence in the
book.

If that is what happened, then this is *not* plagiarism: it is merely a
routine manifestation of a particular type of mental disability. (One might
just as well demand that a normal person put quotes around each word in
every sentence that he utters, with a footnote pointing back to the source
where he learned that word, and accuse him of "plagiarism" if he failed to
do so. :-)

I do not, of course, know whether this is the correct explanation of the
unattributed copying that Aaron Barth found in Mills' book, but if it is,
then two conclusions follow:

(1) Mills is innocent of the charge of plagiarism.

(2) Mills is incapable of achieving a significant breakthrough in any
field, and those who are analyzing his book in hopes that he has done so
are wasting their time.

That, at any rate, is the way it looks to me.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

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Test of tab character delimiter, Ohmori's data. Entire set to follow.

30 seconds	0.91	316.0
1 minute	0.75	316.0
2 minutes	0.70	315.9

- JR

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Subject: Description of Ohmori experiment
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On my recent trip to Japan I had a chance to observe the Ohmori version of 
the global discharge experiment. Photographs of the equipment he uses may 
be found on my 1999 visit the CD-ROM, Electronic photographs \ July 14, 
1999. See, for example:

Image 14. Ohmori's pen recorder. He has no computer and at this stage no 
electronics for the cell at all so even the pen recorder cannot be used. 
All data collection is manual with alcohol thermometer and a stopwatch -- a 
mechanical wound stopwatch at that.

Image 15. Ohmori's ammeter, manufactured in 1960, Yokogawa Electric Works, Ltd.

Ohmori prefers old fashioned equipment. I think he would use it even if 
they gave him funding and allowed him to perform the experiment in his own 
building. As Mizuno puts it, Ohmori is an analog man into digital world.


The experiment was performed on October 24, 2000.

Ohmori uses a quartz glass cell, open at the top. The cathode is square, 6 
mm, half the size of Mizuno's. I have an unused sample cathode, which I can 
scan and e-mail or post on my web page if anyone would like to see it. The 
cathode lead wire is covered with Teflon. The anode is a round platinum 
mesh placed at the bottom of the cell. It is much smaller than the platinum 
mesh Mizuno uses.

Before I arrived to observe the experiment, Ohmori prepared the 
electrolyte, cathode, and other materials. He measured the heat decay curve 
of the quartz glass cell using a simple method. He filled the cell to the 
top with 240 ml of water, submerged a resistance heater in it, and brought 
the water to boil. He turned off the power and measured the temperature 
with a red alcohol thermometer, starting at 99 deg C. He plotted the 
temperature directly on graph paper. Here are the data points:

0:00  99 deg C
0:15  98 deg C
0:30  97 deg C (slightly below 97)
0:45  96 deg C
1:00  95 deg C (slightly above)
1:30  94 deg C
2:00  93 deg C

Since the cooling curve is nearly linear for the first 30 seconds, Ohmori 
drew a line through the first three points. In intercepts the 1 minute line 
at ~94.4 degrees. From this, Ohmori concluded that when the entire cell 
wall is held at 99 degrees, it loses heat at the rate of 4.65 degrees * 240 
ml = 1116 calories per minute. 1116 calories multiplied by 4.18 = 4664 
joules. During the glow discharge experiment, the water level is lower than 
it was in this test with 240 ml, but the head space above the water line is 
filled with steam, so Ohmori assumes that the glass walls radiate heat at 
the same rate they do when the entire cell is filled with boiling water.

In his latest round of experiment, Ohmori has computed enthalpy by placing 
the cell on a weight scale, and measuring the fluid lost as vapor. It is 
electronic scale that registers 0.01 grams. The cell vibrates and bounces 
around during violent glow discharge electrolysis, so the last digit of 
precision on the weight scale has no meaning. Ohmori places the cell inside 
a horizontal metal ring holder because sometimes the cell vibrates so much 
it threatens to precess off the weight scale platform. Normally the cell is 
not touch the metal ring.

Ohmori conducts the experiment in a filthy, cave-like vacant room in a 
nearly abandoned building next door to Mizuno's lab. I went over there to 
observe the experiment starting at 1:15 PM. Ohmori begins with ordinary 
electrolysis for one hour, to prepare the cathode surface. (Mizuno usually 
begins glow discharge electrolysis five or ten minutes into the 
experiment.) The entire cell including electrolyte weight was 322.9 g. 
Electrolysis was performed at 1.8 amps, 15 volts, in constant current mode. 
We left it in that state and went out to drink tea.

We returned at 2:30 PM. The weight was now 316.0 g, so Ohmori replenished 
the electrolyte with purified water, bringing it back to 322.6 g. Power was 
increased to 2.3 amps, 14 volts.

2:37  Power increased to 2.6 amps 15 volts

2:43 Power 2.8 amps 16 volts. Weight 321.0 g.

2:47 Power increased to 3.0 amps 17 volts. Weight 320.5 g.

Soon after that, the power supplies were turned up to the maximum with the 
expectation that water temperature would soon rise to 80 or 90 degrees C 
and glow discharge would begin.

2:50  Weight 320 g

2:52  Weight 319.7 g, temperature 70 deg C

2:55  Weight 319.0 g. Still no glow discharge.

2:59  Weight 317.6 g. Temperature 73 deg C, rising slower than expected.

3:00  Replenish water, weight 322 g

3:10  Weight 315.6 g. Still no sign of glow discharge, and temperature is 
still abnormally low. Glow discharge does not usually begin below 80 
degrees. Ohmori is puzzled. He sends Jed to fetch a new power supply. 
Mizuno lends us one which is much more powerful than Ohmori's, but of lower 
quality, so power is not as stable.

Mizuno come to have a look. He hangs back at the door, commenting, "the way 
he does this experiment frightens me."

3:15  Weight 314.2 g, no glow discharge.

3:20  Change power supplies.

3:22  3.2 amps

3:23  3.5 amps 19.5 V, 314.7 g. Change to constant voltage mode.

3:26  Start glow discharge. Weight 315.9 g. Power is 0.8 amps 160 volts

Data points taken during run are shown below

3:50  END of run. Weight 277.0 g.


During the run, voltage was read off of the digital display of the power 
supplies. It was a steady. Amperage, which fluctuated considerably, was 
read off the power supply digital display and the Yokogawa analog meter. It 
fluctuated between 0.6 and 0.7 amps, occasionally jumping as high as 0.9, 
especially at the beginning of the run. We recorded the amperage 
conservatively, toward the high end of the scale we thought the needle 
reached as it fluctuated. Here are the data points as recorded by Ohmori, 
and confirmed by Mizuno and me. Three columns are listed below, delimited 
by commas. The first shows elapsed time since start of run, the second 
amperage, and the third column lists the weight of the cell in grams.

30 seconds, 0.91, 316.0
1 minute, 0.75, 316.0
2 minutes, 0.70, 315.9
3 minutes, 0.7, 314.6
4 minutes, 0.65, 312.7
5 minutes, 0.65, 309.5
6 minutes, 0.7, 307.9
7 minutes, 0.65, 305.6
8 minutes, 0.65, 304.1
9 minutes, 0.65, 302.6
10 minutes, 0.65, 301.3

(min 11 not recorded)

12 minutes, 0.65, 298.5
15 minutes, 0.67, 293.5
18 minutes, 0.65, 287.1
20 minutes, 0.65, 282.1

Voltage remained steady at 160 V the entire run.

Obviously, the power measurements are fairly crude in this experiment. I 
have suggested to Mizuno that he bringing his new power analyzer (Yokogawa 
PZ4000) next door to Ohmori's lab to verify input power during one or two runs.

Ohmori thought that the power and glow discharge plasma were fluctuating 
too much during the first few minutes of the experiment, so he decided to 
analyze points from minute 5 to minute 20 only. He graphed the weight 
change and amperage. 27.4 g of water were lost between minute 5 and minute 
20. The rate of weight loss trends down from minute 8 to 10, increases by 
minute 12 and continues in a linear fashion.

Here are the calculations for input and output energy.

Input:

160 V * 0.67 A = 107.2 W

107.2 W * 15 minutes = 96.5 KJ

More conservatively, assume input power was 0.7 amps. Total input would be 
100.8 KJ


Output:

To vapor: 27.4 g * 539 calories per gram heat of vaporization * 4.18 
conversion factor = 61.7 KJ

Heat loss from cell wall: 4664 J/min * 15 minutes = 70.0 KJ

Total enthalpy: 131.7 KJ


Excess heat is 30.9 KJ, or 34.3 watts average over the 900 second run. 
Output is roughly 130% of input. Ohmori has seen it as high as 300% (output 
3 times input).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  2 14:18:57 2000
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At 04:19 PM 11/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

<snip good description of run>

Input:
>160 V * 0.67 A = 107.2 W
>107.2 W * 15 minutes = 96.5 KJ
>
>Output:
>
>To vapor: 27.4 g * 539 calories per gram heat of vaporization * 4.18 
>conversion factor = 61.7 KJ
>
>Heat loss from cell wall: 4664 J/min * 15 minutes = 70.0 KJ

It is important to note that the input energy exceeded the energy required 
to vaporize the water.  Only when the heat loss (calculated with a loss 
coefficient determined from with non-bubbly water) is added that the 
experiment looks o-u.

Since the plasma/boiling operation of the cell fills the cell with a swarm 
of tiny bubbles, it seems at least possible that the heat loss during the 
plasma operation is substantially lower than it is when the vessel is 
completely wetted with non-bubbly water.

Ed, I know you have observed changes in cell-wall heat loss coefficients 
due to bubbles in the liquid.  Can the effect produce a factor of 2 change 
in the overall heat loss rate from the vessel?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  2 14:46:08 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

>Since the plasma/boiling operation of the cell fills the cell with a swarm 
>of tiny bubbles, it seems at least possible that the heat loss during the 
>plasma operation is substantially lower than it is when the vessel is 
>completely wetted with non-bubbly water.

That's a thought, but it is a fairly large vessel, with a lot of liquid. I 
do not think the inside walls are in contact with more bubbles than liquid.

Also bear in mind that Mizuno and Ohmori see similar results using 
different kinds of calorimetry, which do not depend upon heat loss from the 
cell wall. They measured the time it took to heat up from 80 to 100 deg C, 
which is not long; Mizuno used a well insulated cell as a bomb calorimeter, 
in which heat losses from the wall are not significant; and he now uses 
flow calorimetry, albeit with a factor for heat losses from the cell walls. 
Mizuno's cell is 1-liter, compared to Ohmori's 250 ml cell, so there is 
even more water compared to the number of bubbles.

As a general rule, I do not fully trust any single method of calorimetry. I 
can always think of a reason why it might not be working, such as bubbles 
in the fluid changing the way heat radiates from within the fluid. When 
several different methods, based on different physical principles, using 
different instrument types all show excess heat from the same experiment, 
then I think it is time to put aside doubts and believe the results. Mizuno 
and Ohmori passed the point of doubt in their own minds some time ago. They 
are close to passing it in my mind, but I would like to see one or two more 
published replications.

- Jed

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Mills does have a photographic memory, and it has been a great asset to him, 
though in this case it led him to insufficient citation and demarcation of 
the background reference material he was using.

The 2000 edition of Mills' book is 765 pages long and has hundreds of 
references.  If put under a microscope, there may be other cases.  No doubt 
some of his hostile critics are looking for them.  

Mills has made it easy for them, because he has made his book available for 
free on the BlackLight Power website, in downloadable and searchable PDF 
format, since the end of August.  In their search, his hostile critics are 
losing sight of the broad and deep scholarship in the book, not to mention 
the wealth of highly original and far-reaching new material there, as well as 
the stunning experimental results posted on the BLP website.

The intemperate language used by Mills' critics, such as Robert L. Park, Jed 
Rothwell, and Mitchell Jones, might lead people to think that Mills had used 
the sources in question without any attribution at all.  That isn't true.  
Mills did cite his sources, and the argument has been about how extensively 
he should have cited them in this case and how clearly he should have 
demarcated the material.

Here are two of my posts on the subject in the HSG, written October 24 and 
October 28, though the post dates on the HSG may be a day or two later:

---------------------------------

Dean E. Abrahamson's "Viewpoint..." essay in the latest APS NEWS (October 
2000), p. 5, called "So You Want to be a Critic," seems relevant to the flak 
Mills has been getting re citations and patent applications.

(As long as we're in editorial mode, I can't resist pointing out that the 
word "be" wasn't capitalized in the title of the essay as it should be.)

Abrahamson apparently has three decades of experience criticizing nuclear 
power.

Abrahamson notes that if a critic persists and refuses to be co-opted, then 
there is usually an attempt to threaten the critic's well-being.  I think 
that's part of what's going on at the patent office.

Near the end of his essay, Abrahamson advises, "Be scrupulous about your 
taxes and other financial affairs.  A critic's tax returns and credit record 
will be examined carefully."  Mills seems to be undergoing an analagous 
process now with his book.  

-----------------------------------


In a message dated 10/25/2000 4:46:49 PM, Randell Mills wrote, re the 
material from Wald in CQM, 2000 edition, Ch. 23::

<< The whole point of putting this material in was to comment on where it is 
flawed.  I certainly do NOT want it to be attributed to me.  >>

This strikes me as a crucial point.  It means that Mills' use of Wald's 
material falls within the fair use provision of the copyright law.  
Nevertheless, Mills will be universally faulted in the academic and research 
worlds for not citing Wald more extensively and for not demarcating Wald's 
material more clearly, so the sooner that's fixed, the better, as Mills has 
informed us it will be in the next edition of his book.

But why have we spent so much time on the etiquette of citations in Chapter 
23 of the 2000 edition, which has been greatly expanded since the 1999 
edition, and no time at all on Mills' extension in Chapter 23 of general 
relativity to the quantum realm?  Probable answer:  it's a lot easier to 
discuss the former than to discuss the latter.

In particular, I would like to see what Aaron Barth and David McMahon have to 
say about equation 23.32b.

------------------------------------

Here's Mills' response to my post above about Ch. 23:

On page 348 of my book, Wald's work is referenced and my criticism of his 
work is summarized, 

"All cosmological solutions of general relativity predict a decelerating 
universe from a postulated initial condition of a "Big Bang" expansion 
[8].  The astrophysical data reveals an accelerating cosmos [9] which 
invalidates Einstein's equation as discussed in the Cosmology Section.

8. R. M. Wald, General Relativity, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 
(1984), pp. 91-101.

The Cosmology Section only contains Wald's presentation of cosmology and 
my analysis.


In the next edition further blatant reference to Wald has been added 
(given below and italicized) and the last paragraph summarizing my 
comments has been italicized.  My comments are indented and italicized as 
appears in the 2000 edition.

"COSMOLOGY
    The development of the cosmological solutions of Einstein's general 
relativity with big bang theory are from Wald [8].  The failings of this 
theory and a discussion of solutions by Mills are given as indicated in 
special text."

Randell L. Mills MD

------------------------------------

I won't be continuing this thread.  If Jed and Mitchell Jones want the last 
word, they're welcome to it.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  2 19:25:28 2000
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No he did not respond to the copyright issue.  I am not saying that Mills'
response was completely satisfactory--it wasn't--but this should not be
twisted to claim that the whole of his writing is copied from textbooks.
That is an unjustifiable inference.

-Steve

Horace Heffner wrote:
> Quoting brief passages of published copyrighted works, when 
> the quotes are
> properly attributed, and are for purposes of academic discussion, is
> standard and permissable practice.  The objection to Mills' 
> "quotes" was
> that they go on for pages, include figures, and are 
> incorporated in a work
> published for sale.   It is my understanding that the posted 
> objections
> were (unless of course Mills has permission from the owners of the
> copyrighted material) that this is more than just a simple 
> violation of
> academic standards.  I don't recall Mills responding to the 
> copyright issue
> which was discussed in some detail on the HSG list, and 
> constituted the
> serious part of the objections posted there.  Did he respond to those
> objections?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

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Murray: Rothwell: is Iwamura cooling tube teflon?
Beware of SIMsational shifts 11.2.00

Nov 2 2000   Hello Vorts,  Since I was quoting my
own Iwamura critique, then I am both the first and the second idiot,
but whether this dyadic operation results
in resultant idiotcy added, multiplied, or exponentiated,
I must leave to the judgement of the Net,
may all its denizens be blessed.

I am grateful for the possible additional clarification that the
Iwamura cooling tubing may be teflon-- can anyone check this out?

I haven't been to Japan, and don't recall seeing any photos of the
Iwamura experiment, as published in 1998 in Fusion Technology,
or seen any research reports by Iwamura-- I was pointing out
striking deficiencies of fact and presentation in their 1998 report,
so assessments of their more recent claims can be more effective,
as well as applying a nudge to Iwamura et al to produce
well organized, complete documentation of competent
experiments.  There is plenty of historical precedence to justify
immediate wariness about any claim that a cold fusion effect
always occurs in some experimental setup or that "SIMsational"
isotopic shifts have been proved.  Full disclosure of data with
a public debate on the Net would be most effective in making
valid findings well known and respected quickly around the
globe.

I would like to know the total volume of electrolyte in the various
cells, because, as Scott Little discussed in April 1998, a level of
any impurity of 1 ppm in the solid chemicals is very hard to measure
or prevent, so a 100 cc of electrolyte could easily have ~ 20 mcg Ti,
for instance, which would be concentrated by electrolysis onto
and into the cathode.

Rich Murray
********************************************************

Subject:  Re: Murray: Rothwell: Heffner: contamination from Iwamura
cooling  tube? 10.30.00
 Resent-Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:55:50 -0800
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
      Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:55:12 -0500
      From:   Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
   Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
        To:   vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com,
iwamura atrc.mhi.co.jp

Rich Murray quotes some other idiot:

"Probably, they have only one possible case of an element
anomaly: Ti on..."
.....

>If Iwamura's papers were published in full on the Net,
>then many people
>could carry on a public, archived debate to verify their excellence,
>and this debate could be published in Infinite Energy magazine.

Iwamura's papers will published in due course somewhere like the JJAP,
the second most prestigeous physics journal in the world. Publishing
this so-called "debate" in the pages of
Infinite Energy would be a travesty
and an insult to the intelligence of our readers. This is no debate.
We have an ignorant, foolish, lazy person
speculating and jumping to conclusions,
based on nothing more than a passing fancy. These mistakes could have
been corrected years ago by paying a little attention to the literature
ornasking a few questions,
but "skeptics" never do that.

- Jed

****************************************************************
April 3 1998

Search for Evidence of Nuclear Transmutations in the
CETI RIFEX Kit

Scott Little and H. E. Puthoff, Ph.D., EarthTech
International, Inc  4030 Braker Lane West, Austin, TX 78759
www.earthtech.org

Abstract

A series of experiments has been performed with the CETI RIFEX kit.
In each experiment an electrolytic cell with a cathode composed
of metal-coated plastic beads was operated for two weeks.
The cathode beads were then analyzed by x-ray fluorescence for
evidence of nuclear transmutations. Several elements were observed
to appear in the reacted beads. Analyses of the
electrolyte and other components of the system in contact with the
electrolyte are not conclusive but suggest to us that these elements
were present in the system initially.
.....

With this perspective we decided to focus our
attention on the remaining
anomalies in the results from Run 3,
i.e. where did the Fe, Zn, and Pb come from?

Analysis of the Electrolyte

We decided to have the fresh Li2SO4 analyzed for Fe, Zn and Pb.
We sent samples of our well-blended Li2SO4 stock to
Galbraith Laboratories and General Engineering Laboratories.
The results are presented in Table 5.

Table 5: Laboratory analysis of the Li2SO4 (in ppm)

Lab                              Fe       Zn       Pb
Galbraith                    <0.9       9        5
General Engineering      2.9     51        9
Aldrich lot analysis          -        4        -

The agreement among these results is, in our experience, fairly typical
of such low-level analyses with the exception of the
General Engineering Zn result. We asked them to
repeat the Zn analysis on a fresh split of the Li2SO4
and their second result was 31 ppm Zn�not a lot better.
A possible cause for their apparent error is the
unusual sample matrix (i.e. pure Li2SO4).

Using these results we calculated the mass of each element present in
the RIFEX electrolyte circuit
(i.e. the mass of each element in 86 ml of a 0.5M solution of this
Li2SO4). The results, along with the
increase in mass observed for each of these elements in the Run 3
reacted beads are presented in Table 6.

Table 6: Total micrograms of element in fresh electrolyte and observed
increase in element in the reacted beads

Lab                                Fe        Zn          Pb
Galbraith                        <4         43         24
General Engineering        14       147*       43
Aldrich lot analysis            -         19           -
Run 3 reacted beads       95        24         45

     * based upon their second analysis

Except for the Fe it was now apparent that the Li2SO4 contained
sufficient quantities of these elements to explain their appearance
in the reacted beads.....
*****************************************************

April 13, 1998

Dear all,

Since many studies have claimed low energy nuclear transmutations using
various types of mass spectrometer data, I am clipping some of my
comments in recent critiques that show that ICP/MS and SIMS can readily
generate apparent isotopic anomalies in prerun cathodes.  Particularly
common is a Fe-57 to Fe-56 ratio artifact.

A number of remarkable electrolytic transmutation reports have been
given by a group of researchers at Hokkaido University.  I will examine
these by focussing on a recent work by T Ohmori, M Enyo, T. Mizuno, Y
Nodasaka, and H Minagawa, "Transmutation in the Electrolysis of Light
Water-- Excess Energy and Iron Production in a Gold Electrode," Fusion
Technology, March, 1997, 31, p. 210-218.

Now, "Transmutations" does contain a veritable pot of data stew,
Fig. 9, the entire SIMS spectrum of the uppermost layers
of the gold after electrolysis in the Na2SO4 solution.
Suitably doubled by zerox, it is a wonderful sight,
a Himalayan vista, the main reason I selected this work
for study.

Prominent peaks, with notes:

Na-23 100,000 intensity counts.

Cs-133 10,000   (Ni-58)2OH?  (SiO)3H?   The Cincinatti Group's four
ICP/MS scans by Robert Liversage offer no clues.

>1,000 counts   Al, Si, K, Ca, Ti, Cr, Fe-56, TiO.  Could Fe-56 be
(Si-28)2 or CaO?

>100 counts   Mg, "Fe-57", FeO, ZrO (106), Au, some others.
Could Fe-57 be (Si-28)2H or CaOH?

~50 counts   O2, Zr-90, Rh, In, Br, Kr, Pd, Xe, Gd ??  Why isn't there
more S-32 from the Na2SO4?

Given all the possibilites for diatomic molecules, hydrides, nitrides,
and oxides, there is plenty of room to prove just about anything.
That's why data stew is so seductively tasty.  Hey, experts, since we
have O2, why not Si2?  That'd explain away a lot of Fe!

In the Cincinnati Group's ICP/MS data, Infinite Energy #13-14, we can
sip some more data stew.  In the four scans, we find the computer
program in the first two scans assigns to mass 57 in large part 5,052
counts and then in small part 24,390 counts as ArOH, while in the last
two runs, it gives mass 57 as in huge part an unknown with 2,882,095
counts and then also in huge part 446 counts.  Ar is very plentiful,
since it is the carrier gas in the apparatus.  Should we not leap at
this as more proof of the transmutation production of Fe-57?

Clearly, the computer data analysis program is overwhelmed even by the
simplest scan, #1 the unprocessed reagent blank, listing large unknown
counts for these masses:  30 2,216,930   35 288,002   42 45,836   74
43,215   238 738,673

I spent hours fooling around with all that data, getting nowhere,
and that itself is the significant result.

George Miley's famous report, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film
Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," 1996, has a "Typical low
resultion SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers
in the cell)," which after doubling via zerox,
indicates a ratio of mass
57 to 56 of about 200 to 3,000,
about .075, far more than the original 0.023.

R Bush and R Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced
Transmutation and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in
Electrolytic Cells with Light Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes," Trans.
Fusion Technology, Dec., 1994, 26, p. 344-54, has a more adaquate pyrex
closed cell with an internal platinum black recombiner, at 1.0 mA/cm2,
but gives no data about the run history, except to say that the total
excess heat for Cell 53 is (4.0 +- 0.8) X 10exp19 MeV.  He does give
four SIMS graphs:  for mass 57 vs 56 we, after the obligatory doubling
of the graphs via zerox, find pre-run values, about 60,000 to 300,000,
ratio .2,  and post-run, 200 to 6,000, ratio .03.
So, the pre-run ratio is many times more anomalous than the post-run.
Now, that's efficient research!  No need to even run the electrolysis!
This is a much more significant result than the claimed
transmutation of rubidium to strontium, eh?

So, at this point, after all this hassle, there seems to me to be no
convincing evidence that low energy nuclear transmutations exist.
Wayne Green's Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion)
# 23, Sept., 1997, has an
abstract by Prof. Hiroshi Yamada, Dept. Electrical Engineering,
Iwate U., Morioka 020, Japan:

"Products on Gold-plate Cathode in Water Electrolysis System (poster
presentation)  In an Au/H2O electrolysis system with an Na2SO4
solution, the electrolysis was carried out
for 16-40 days with a current density
of 0.5 A/cm2.  The elements on the gold-pate cathode were identified by
means of secondary ion mass spectrometry and X-ray photo-electron
spectroscopy.  A large amount of carbon and iron were observed to have
been deposited on the gold-plate."

Any takers?

In a recent issue of  "Infinite Energy", # 13-14,
on page 23 gave the ICP/MS data by Robert R. Liversage of Data Chem
Laboratories from the Cincinnati Group's Thorium transmutation
experiment for Scan #1, Reagent Blank, (unprocessed),
5% nitric acid and 5 % hydrochloric acid, in glass (I presume) vials,
as detailed data and computer program estimated possible interferences.
Sulfur is mainly mass 32, and has very high Total Intensity of
2,961,796, which Joe Champion says, based on his extensive and
difficult experience, is simply an interference by O2.

Now, iron is mostly mass 56.  The above data has a Total Intensity
22,544 for mass 28, the most abundant isotope of silicon.  So, mass 56
could result from Si2, and cadmium, 24 % mass 112, could be SiO4, and
tack on an H or two to get Cd 113 (12 %) and Cd 114 (29 %).  In turn,
mass 28 could itself be N2.

Also, for Iron, we might have (CO)2, or even ArO, since Ar is the
carrier gas in ICP/MS, or else CON2.  Probably, C is a major trace
constituent of the tungsten, and can also come from atmospheric CO2.

As one,  Rich Murray   Room For All   rmforall earthlink.net
1943  Otowi Road  Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cell
**********************************************************










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  2 22:58:27 2000
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Subject: Re: Mills' and the new paradigm
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Mills' and the new
paradigm</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>What follows is part of an email that I
wrote to Randell Mills regarding the possible need for a new paradigm
of physics.&nbsp; In the Infinite Energy article that I mentioned,
the author talks about the apparent conflicts between Mills
observations and Relativity.</blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><font face="Helvetica" color="#000000">My friend David Moon,
cold fusion theorist, purchased a subscription to Infinite Energy for
me. I've been reading your article in Vol. 6 Issue 23. I wouldn't be
too concerned with Special Relativity if I were you. Einstein built
his model on Newton's model of the universe. Robert Cook has built an
inertial drive. Given the potential significance of it's operation (
my friend Howard, who used to teach chemical engineering at the
University of Minnesota told me that a working inertial drive would
upset his paradigm of the universe worse than a FE machine and Otto
Schmitt concluded with Howard on this ) I asked Hal Puthoff what
would be definitive proof of unidirectional momentum. He replied
&quot;hang it from the rafters of a gymnasium next to a plumb bob, if
the entire machine moves over, so that it is beyond the string
holding the plumb bob, that is proof.&quot; According to Cook's
financial backer they have done that.&nbsp; It's operation disproves
Newton's third law, disprove Newton and Einstein's model collapses on
top of it.</font></div>
<div><font face="Helvetica" color="#000000"><br>
It would seem that what we need is a new paradigm which addresses how
the universe works. There are several competing paradigms, I will
address this on my hyperdimensional physics page on my site. Robert
Cook has published his theories in his new book,&nbsp;<br>
<br>
I also&nbsp; noticed your journal articles in cancer research. In my
opinion, attempting to cure cancer with radiation makes as much
sense, in the long term, as using gasoline in a fire extinguisher. My
theories about cancer elimination are on my website.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
</font></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 07:31:49 2000
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Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:26:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, iwamura@atrc.mhi.co.jp
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: is Iwamura cooling tube teflon? Beware
  of SIMsational  shifts 11.2.00
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Rich Murray wrote:

>I am grateful for the possible additional clarification that the
>Iwamura cooling tubing may be teflon-- can anyone check this out?

Why? As I pointed out, it says in the ICCF7 paper, "all experimental parts 
such as electric wires . . . are coated with Teflon." A metal tube, if 
there were one, would qualify as "an experimental part." In all 
electrochemical experiments, things like copper pipes are encased in Teflon 
or glass. Only a complete idiot would leave an exposed copper pipe in the 
electrolyte in an experiment designed to find copper transmutations.

This is part of a pattern. Murray and the other pseudo-skeptics never read 
a paper and they never believe anything in writing. You take a published 
paper proving they are wrong, you shove it in their face, and they pretend 
it means nothing. Murray blandly asks for "additional clarification" even 
though he has all the clarification any reasonable person could ask for 
already. He will always ask for more, and he will never read or understand 
what has already been published.


>I would like to know the total volume of electrolyte in the various
>cells, because, as Scott Little discussed in April 1998, a level of
>any impurity of 1 ppm in the solid chemicals is very hard to measure . . .

There is no electrolyte in the gas loaded cells. The total volume is zero. 
Furthermore, Iwamura showed that the mass of some of the transmuted 
elements is 10 to 100 times greater than the total mass of those elements 
in all cell components including the electrolyte. If every atom of Si and 
S  and Cu in the entire cell magically jumped out of the cell walls and 
lead wires, and migrated to the cathode surface, this would still not 
explain the presence of the anomalous elements, and it certainly would not 
explain their isotope distribution.

This kind of question is intended to muddle the issues and confuse people 
who do not understand the points that Iwamura already made about the mass 
of contaminants in the cell. Murray pretends he has found a weakness, but 
actually Iwamura addressed this issue in every lecture and paper he has 
published since 1993.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Mills' response
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>The 2000 edition of Mills' book is 765 pages long and has hundreds of
>references.  If put under a microscope, there may be other cases.  No doubt
>some of his hostile critics are looking for them.

I am sorry, but I find it impossible to believe that a person trained in 
academics would copy several pages of text and forget to cite the author. 
It does not take a "microscope" to find pages of unattributed text. That is 
either a gigantic error or deliberate plagiarism. If it is an error, a 
prompt, written apology and immediate corrections are called for.


>The intemperate language used by Mills' critics, such as Robert L. Park, Jed
>Rothwell, and Mitchell Jones, might lead people to think that Mills had used
>the sources in question without any attribution at all.  That isn't true.

Then why did the accusation arise, and why did he issue a muddled statement 
in his defense? Why does he now say he will revise the book?


Nevertheless, Mills will be universally faulted in the academic and research
>worlds for not citing Wald more extensively and for not demarcating Wald's
>material more clearly, so the sooner that's fixed, the better, as Mills has
>informed us it will be in the next edition of his book.

Of course Mills is faulted! Anyone would be, even a professor at Harvard or 
the President of the U.S. Does Mills merit special dispensation from the 
rules? This promise about the "next edition" is not adequate. If I were the 
author or publisher he copied from, I would demand the current edition be 
yanked from the web site immediately, and a correction and apology be 
posted in its place. I would have my lawyer tell Mills to do it by close of 
business day today or face a lawsuit.


>But why have we spent so much time on the etiquette of citations . . .

This is not a mere breach of etiquette. It is a more serious matter. A 
professor caught doing things like this would face censure and possibly 
dismissal. I will grant, this is not a felony either. I expect a prompt 
apology will clear the air and focus people's attention once again on the 
theory and scientific claims, which may be correct, and may deserve 
attention. It is in Mills' best interest to apologize and put this scandal 
behind him. The longer he lets it fester, and the more excuses he makes, 
the worse it will get.

Corporations are sometimes caught doing unethical things. A few years ago, 
reporters found out that Chrysler execs were driving new cars and then 
resetting the odometers. Chrysler apologized immediately, 
revealed  details, and quickly put the incident behind them. Mills is 
running a corporation, and that is how a good corporation handles this kind 
of situation.


I won't be continuing this thread.  If Jed and Mitchell Jones want the last
>word, they're welcome to it.

Please remember, Tom, that I am critiquing Mills business practices and his 
academic ethics. I have nothing to say about his theory. It could be right 
for all I know. If it is right, it is a shame that he has harmed it and 
distracted people's attention. I hope his scientific supporters, such as 
you, can rescue the theory and redirect attention to it. Mills is working 
against you, by needlessly prolonging this scandal.

- Jed

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On Thursday, November 2, 2000, at 11:54 PM, thomas malloy wrote:

>  Robert Cook has published his theories in his new book,� 
> 
What book is that? Do you have the Title or ISBN? I have a copy of his 1980 book "The Death of Rocketry" and would like to see how things have progressed.

Thanks,

Alex Karahalios

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 09:32:15 2000
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:28:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mills' response
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>  >>----- Original Message -----
>>>
>
>  >were quotes from other publications. Where have I heard that before?
>
>***{Hi Thomas. Are you saying that when Mills speaks, other people's words
>come out of his mouth


No, I'm saying that the words came out of Infinite Energy. Volume 6 
Issue 33 page 49. I was just being facetious. Given the gravity that 
some of you attach to this I appologize.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 10:48:10 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

> At 04:19 PM 11/2/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> <snip good description of run>
>
> Input:
> >160 V * 0.67 A = 107.2 W
> >107.2 W * 15 minutes = 96.5 KJ
> >
> >Output:
> >
> >To vapor: 27.4 g * 539 calories per gram heat of vaporization * 4.18
> >conversion factor = 61.7 KJ
> >
> >Heat loss from cell wall: 4664 J/min * 15 minutes = 70.0 KJ
>
> It is important to note that the input energy exceeded the energy required
> to vaporize the water.  Only when the heat loss (calculated with a loss
> coefficient determined from with non-bubbly water) is added that the
> experiment looks o-u.
>
> Since the plasma/boiling operation of the cell fills the cell with a swarm
> of tiny bubbles, it seems at least possible that the heat loss during the
> plasma operation is substantially lower than it is when the vessel is
> completely wetted with non-bubbly water.
>
> Ed, I know you have observed changes in cell-wall heat loss coefficients
> due to bubbles in the liquid.  Can the effect produce a factor of 2 change
> in the overall heat loss rate from the vessel?

The stirring action of bubbles will cause the stagnate layer of fluid on the
wall to be reduced. Hence the cell will lose heat more rapidly than it did in
the absence of bubble mixing.  This effect will only apply below the water
line.  Above the water line in the gas, the effective thermal conductivity of
the wall will depend on the flow of condensed water down the surface.  The
higher the gas temperature, the more water vapor would condense and the lower
would be the effective conductivity.  Hence, I would expect the loss rate of
energy to be more than is predicted.  Therefore, based on this effect, the
amount of over-unity energy is actually greater than proposed by Ohmoir.

I do not think that the presence of bubbles within the fluid would
significantly change the energy transfer rate within the liquid.  This rate
is dominated by convection, not by thermal conduction.

Ed Storms

>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 10:48:30 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Mills' response
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At 1:24 PM 11/2/0, Florek, Steven wrote:
>No he did not respond to the copyright issue.  I am not saying that Mills'
>response was completely satisfactory--it wasn't--but this should not be
>twisted to claim that the whole of his writing is copied from textbooks.
>That is an unjustifiable inference.


I have not seen anyone make such an inference, nor do I.  That issue is a
red herring in my view.  Mills may not or may to some degree have a valid
theory, but certainly plagerism has no bearing on that.  Further, I hope
Mills has found a solution to the energy problem, because we all need that
desperately.

If there has been a number of blatant copyright violations, as alleged by
Barth, then the implication is more in the direction of ethics and
integrity and the methodology employed to raise large sums of money.  If
there is unethical behavior involved in the attracting of investors then
that behavior can possibly cross the thin blue line between lawful and
unlawful.  The implications can go far beyond simple copyright violations
and into the domain of the SEC.

I should also point out that Barth's allegations of indiscretion relates
not just to Wald, but also to Bowyer (1994, Science, 263: 55), Monsignori
Fossi et al. (1995, The Astrophysical Journal, 449: 376), and Fang &
Ruffini (Basic Concepts in Relativistic Astrophysics, 1983, World
Scientific.)  An exact quote of Barth is included below.  If, without the
copyright holder's permission, large quantities of text, including typos,
was copied, or material was scanned, then it appears there is little doubt
that multiple flagrant violations of the copyright laws has occurred.

To clear the air, Mills merely has to show that he has the copyright
owner's permission to publish the material, or to show that Barth's
allegations are false.


At 10:30 AM 10/17/0, ab1097 disinfo.net [Aaron Barth] wrote:

>
>Let me point out that I've also noticed that page 340 of Mills's book
>is copied almost word-for-word from Fang & Ruffini (Basic Concepts in
>Relativistic Astrophysics, 1983, World Scientific), pages 6-8.  Also,
>a very substantial fraction of the text of Mills's pages 363-369 is
>copied virtually verbatim from Fang & Ruffini pages 52-60.  This
>includes Tables 23.1 and 23.2, and Figure 23.1 which looks like it's
>been scanned in directly from Fang & Ruffini's book.  Now, on p. 362
>Mills says that his derivation of the precession of perihelion
>"follows Fang & Ruffini".  But what he's actually done is to simply
>copy several pages of text directly, rather than to follow or
>paraphrase F&R's arguments, and this is inexcusable.  He's not just
>copying the equations, he's copying explanations, interpretations, and
>all in the original author's wording with only the most minor changes.
>Mills has even copied verbatim a typographical error made on page 60
>of Fang & Ruffini, where F&R misspell one author name in a reference
>(Fomalont & Sramek).

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Description of Ohmori experiment
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Scott Little wrote:

>Since the plasma/boiling operation of the cell fills the cell with a swarm 
>of tiny bubbles, it seems at least possible that the heat loss during the 
>plasma operation is substantially lower than it is when the vessel is 
>completely wetted with non-bubbly water.

I suppose we could ask Ohmori to do a calibration run with a joule heater 
in boiling water:

1. Bring cell to steady state boiling.
2. Weigh cell.
3. Let it boil for 20 minutes.
4. Weigh again. Assume that all enthalpy not lost to boiling water was 
radiated from the cell walls.

Right? Where else can the heat go?

There might be a slight difference in the bubbles with glow discharge 
electrolysis compared to regular boiling, because there are free O2 and H2 
bubbles as well as vapor, but I do not think it would have any measurable 
effect.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 11:53:40 2000
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Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:55:37 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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No need for a cosmological constant with Quintessence!

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/8

Terry

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At 02:25 PM 11/3/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

I suppose we could ask Ohmori to do a calibration run with a joule heater 
in boiling water:

>1. Bring cell to steady state boiling.
>2. Weigh cell.
>3. Let it boil for 20 minutes.
>4. Weigh again. Assume that all enthalpy not lost to boiling water was 
>radiated from the cell walls.

hmmmm.  Ed's comments certainly surprised me on this one.  In my 
plasma-electrolysis cells, the bubbles are very different from those of 
ordinary joule heat induced boiling.  In the latter case, you have 
relatively large bubbles that leave the heater and go more-or-less straight 
up, creating a significant convection current in the process.  However, in 
the plasma electrolysis case, the electrolyte appears to be transformed 
into a more-or-less homogeneous mixture of liquid and very fine bubbles 
which actually causes the level of "liquid" in the cell to rise noticeably.

You didn't mention stirring.  Does Ohmori not use a magnetic stirrer to 
stir his cells!?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 12:27:12 2000
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Subject: RE: Quintessential Cosmology
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:03:27 -0800 
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This article says:

"One fact we know about the dark energy is that it has negative pressure:
cosmic acceleration can only occur if the pressure is sufficiently negative.
The reason for this is found in general relativity, which tells us that
energy and momentum, and therefore pressure, all gravitate. (Indeed, the
deflection of light by gravity is exploited by astronomers in the
well-established technique known as gravitational lensing.) "

This is something of a non-sequitor.  Gravitational lensing is not a
consequence of the gravitation of energy--it is a consequence of the fact
that photons follow curved arcs of spacetime bent by gravity.

Is anyone aware of evidence (besides the prediction of GR) that energy in
forms other than matter gravitates?  What if the gravitational force is not
conserved when matter is converted to energy?  For starters, then stars
themselves might be the engines of spacetime expansion (and the observed
acceleration of that expansion.

Curious,

-Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:56 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Quintessential Cosmology
> 
> 
> No need for a cosmological constant with Quintessence!
> 
> http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/8
> 
> Terry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  3 12:45:25 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

>You didn't mention stirring.  Does Ohmori not use a magnetic stirrer to 
>stir his cells!?

Good question. He did not use one in the experiment I observed, and there 
is no stirrer shown in the publication "Kotainai Kakuhannou Ken'kyuu," p. 
164, so I guess not. However, Mizuno always uses a stirrer, and he has used 
this method of calorimetry, and demonstrated excess heat. Most of his 
published experiments used flow calorimetry.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 03, 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:32:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW    Robert L. Park   Friday, 3 Nov 00   Washington, DC

1.  SPACE STATION: THE RETURN TO FLAG-POLE SITTING.  "This is
probably the most significant event in manned spaceflight since
the launch of Uri Gagarin almost 40 years ago," crowed the U.S.
flight director.  Could this be so?  Two Russians and an American
boarded the spacecraft yesterday for a four-month stay that will
involve neither research nor exploration.  They are there to fix
the toilet, and stow supplies.  "This is the last day, barring
unforeseen circumstances, that we will not have a human presence
in space."  That's what human spaceflight is down to.  There were
vague references to unspecified future research, but no one even
mentioned growing protein crystals, which NASA had featured in
its space station propaganda.  In Congressional testimony, NASA
claimed that crystals grown on the shuttle had been used to
develop a new flu drug, but Science magazine (25 June 99) found
that they were, in fact, grown in Australia (WN 3 Mar 2000).  

2.  GOT CARBON?  Fredrick Palmer, General Manager of the Western
Fuels Association, held a press conference on Monday proclaiming
the wonders of carbon dioxide. "It's food," Palmer beamed.  His
"scientific" report, The Greening of the American West, compares
photos of western landscapes taken around the 1850s to ones taken
around the 1990s.  Sure enough, the 1990s photos show more trees! 
Conclusion: increasing CO2 helps things grow.  But the effect is
even more dramatic than that.  I did a quick check of my own
photo album: I've grown almost five feet in the last 65 years!

3. THE FAT LADY FINALLY SINGS. One week to go before the election
and Congress and the White House at long last have come to an
agreement on the DOE, NSF and NASA budgets.  The numbers should
put smiles on the faces of scientists, who have labored for
months making the case for federal R&D investments.  Last spring,
appropriators predicted that allocation ceilings eventually would
be lifted.  It happened, and science accounts emerged from
conference at levels higher than either the House or Senate had
approved separately during the summer.  DOE Basic Energy Sciences
leads the pack boasting a 30% increase, with DOE Science rising
14% in the aggregate.  NSF's Research and Related Activities
jumps more than 13%, with Math and Physical Sciences up almost
12%.  DOE's fusion and high-energy and nuclear physics, which had
faced cuts in the Senate, emerge with roughly cost-of-living
increases.  NASA space science climbs more than 13%.  Yeehaw!
                                   
4. WHISTLE BLOWERS BEWARE.  A new anti-leak law making disclosure
of any "properly classified" information a felony, punishable by
up to 3 years imprisonment, has drawn fire from media and civil
liberties groups, who are urging a presidential veto.  Senator
Moynihan(D-NY), who has attacked the broadness of the bill, put
it this way.  "Do you know what it takes to classify something
'Top Secret'?  You...buy a stamp that says 'Top Secret.'"

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
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Subject: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot" 11.3.00
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Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot" 11.3.00

Nov 3  2000   Hello Vorts,  This "idiot" has to confess that my previous

post did "muddle the issues" somewhat, inadvertently-- it was late at
night-- because I didn't realize that the July, 1998 report by
Iwamura et al in Fusion Technology, which I studied carefully
and summarized in my 7.22.98 critique,
mentioned gold plate on the cooling tube:

"Five turns of a cooling tube, perhaps stainless steel,
plated with 10 micron Au, conducts "pure water" for mass flow
calorimetry.
.....  The electrolytic cell is Teflon, with all its internal parts
coated with sprayed Teflon."

I surmise that the cooling tube, since it is coated with 10 micron Au,
must be made of metal and perhaps is not coated with sprayed
Teflon-- otherwise,  why the gold plate?  I haven't received any info
from Iwamura et al, so I hope Jeb Rothwell will email them for a
clarification.

Of course, as a pragmatic skeptic, I am applying reverse logic: if the
claim is that unexpected, common elements are found in microgram
amounts in electrolysis experiments, then that is evidence that there
is inadvertent or deliberate contamination, or that trace amounts in
the reagents are being concentrated.  If the effect always occurs, then
that is evidence that the mistake has not been diagnosed and
corrected.   Note that even a speck of dust can provide 10-20 mcg.
For detailed descriptions on what happens when a serious search
scrutinizes these effects in a famous transmution claim:

http://www.earthtech.org/experiments.htm
EarthTech's RIFEX Report
download a PKzipped Microsoft Word 97 .doc file - 245 kbytes
download an Adobe Acrobat .pdf file - 288 kbytes
download a PKzipped Rich Text Format file - 491 kbytes

I hope Iwamura et al have studied this report carefully, for it is
better to search out the flaws in your own research for yourself,
rather than incautiously submit them to premature official publication,
which can damage the reputation of the corporate sponsor.
Referees are supposed to do this, but the cold fusion field seems
to one in which the peer review process has been failing for years.
That is why a modestly competent skeptic like this "idiot" can find
major, obvious flaws in the papers by Miley, Ohmori, Mizuno, and
Iwamura.  The devil lies in the details, so send me some detailed
reports to vet.

Subject:  Brief Report on Hokkaido Trip
Resent-Date:   Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:27:03 -0700
Resent-From:   vortex-l eskimo.com
Date:   Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:25:11 -0400
From:    Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
To:  vortex-L eskimo.com
[extracts by Rich Murray]
I asked Iwamura whether these experiments have been independently
replicated or otherwise confirmed. They have not been replicated,
because of the expertise required and the astronomical cost.
However, the results have been independently confirmed.
Samples have been sent out to expert
facilities in Japan and Europe other than Mitsubishi, for specialized
spectroscopy other tests. These independent tests with different
instrument types confirm the isotope shifts,
which prove the new elements cannot be contamination.
The shifts are orders of magnitude greater than changes
induced by things like SIMS or electrochemical isotope separation, which

in any case cannot occur in the gas loading experiments.
[Murray: can we see the details of these tests?]

Iwamura et al. are now running two types of experiments with similar
detection equipment and multilayer membrane cathodes made of palladium
and a variety of other materials.
In the first experiment, which they have been doing with 100%
reproducibility for several years, they establish a
vacuum on the bottom of the cathode,
and perform liquid electrolysis on the top.
The deuterons are forced through the cathode rapidly. Iwamura observes
excess heat and massive transmutations in every case, and occasionally
x-rays and gamma rays.
Spectroscopy is performed before and after the run.
In the second series of experiments, they use gas loading instead of
electrolysis, again with a membrane and similar apparatus. Low pressure
(1 atm) deuterium gas is loaded into the chamber on the top surface of
the
Pd sample. It is sucked through the metal into the vacuum below. The
reaction rate is thousands of times lower than with electrolysis, making
it
impossible to detect excess heat, but contamination is also reduced by
orders of magnitude. Every few days they evacuate the D2 chamber to take

a reading with on-line, in situ x-ray mass spectroscopy.
They can watch surface transmutations develop and change.
The evolution of these transmutations is complex and astounding,
and as far as I know, no theorist predicted it. Mg, for example,
appears at first, increases, and when it reaches a certain density
it rapidly decreases, apparently being transmuted into something else.
The end result is similar to that of the electrolysis experiments.
After the run, various methods of off-line spectroscopy
confirm new element production and large isotope shifts.
The total mass of some of the new elements is
much larger than all sources of contamination
can account for. In a few cases, it is so large that the products are
visible. These macroscopic transmutation products are mainly elements
lighter than iron, Si and S, meaning their production is endothermic,
which I suppose explains why Iwamura et al. are not blown sky-high
from a massive nuclear energy release.
[Murray: can we see the details of these tests?  "The evolution of these

transmutations is complex and astounding, and as far as I know, no
theorist predicted it."  This would be expected as the signature of
random
variations in various contamination processes.]

Rich Murray

Subject:   Re: Murray: Rothwell: is Iwamura cooling tube teflon?
Beware of SIMsational shifts  11.2.00
Resent-Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:27:30 -0800
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
Date:  Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:26:54 -0500
From:   Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
To:  vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, iwamura@atrc.mhi.co.jp

Rich Murray wrote:

>I am grateful for the possible additional clarification that the
>Iwamura cooling tubing may be teflon-- can anyone check this out?

Why? As I pointed out, it says in the ICCF7 paper, "all experimental
parts such as electric wires . . . are coated with Teflon."
A metal tube, if there were one, would qualify as "an experimental
part."
In all electrochemical experiments, things like copper pipes are encased
in
Teflon or glass. Only a complete idiot would leave an exposed copper
pipe in
the electrolyte in an experiment designed to find copper transmutations.

This is part of a pattern. Murray and the other pseudo-skeptics never
read a paper and they never believe anything in writing.
You take a published paper proving they are wrong,
you shove it in their face, and they pretend it means nothing.
Murray blandly asks for "additional clarification"
even though he has all the clarification any reasonable person could ask
for
already. He will always ask for more, and he will never read or
understand what has already been published.

>I would like to know the total volume of electrolyte in the various
>cells, because, as Scott Little discussed in April 1998, a level of
>any impurity of 1 ppm in the solid chemicals is very hard to measure .
. .

There is no electrolyte in the gas loaded cells.
The total volume is zero.
Furthermore, Iwamura showed that the mass of some of the transmuted
elements is 10 to 100 times greater than the total mass of those
elements in all cell components including the electrolyte.
If every atom of Si and S  and Cu in the entire cell
magically jumped out of the cell walls and lead wires,
and migrated to the cathode surface, this would still not
explain the presence of the anomalous elements, and it certainly would
not explain their isotope distribution.

This kind of question is intended to muddle the issues and confuse
people who do not understand the points that
Iwamura already made about the mass of contaminants in the cell.
Murray pretends he has found a weakness, but
actually Iwamura addressed this issue in every lecture and paper he has
published since 1993.

- Jed
**********************************************************





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 06:07:55 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot" 11.3.00
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At 12:43 AM 11/4/0, Rich Murray wrote:
>Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot" 11.3.00
>
>Nov 3  2000   Hello Vorts,  This "idiot" has to confess that my previous
>
>post did "muddle the issues" somewhat, inadvertently-- it was late at
>night-- because I didn't realize that the July, 1998 report by
>Iwamura et al in Fusion Technology, which I studied carefully
>and summarized in my 7.22.98 critique,
>mentioned gold plate on the cooling tube:
>
>"Five turns of a cooling tube, perhaps stainless steel,
>plated with 10 micron Au, conducts "pure water" for mass flow
>calorimetry.
>.....  The electrolytic cell is Teflon, with all its internal parts
>coated with sprayed Teflon."
>
>I surmise that the cooling tube, since it is coated with 10 micron Au,
>must be made of metal and perhaps is not coated with sprayed
>Teflon-- otherwise,  why the gold plate?  I haven't received any info
>from Iwamura et al, so I hope Jeb Rothwell will email them for a
>clarification.


It does not matter if the cooling tube is made of cookie dough.  Since the
results are REPEATABLE, and since differing cathodes produce differing
isotope shifts, the various cathodes act as controls for each other.  The
independent variable,  what changes between experiments, is the cathode.
If the variations were due to contamination then the results would NOT BE
REPEATABLE.  To attack the results you have to attack it based on an
insufficient number of repetitions, not on the cell construction.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 09:31:11 2000
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Subject: Galindo-Uribarri: two proton decay: diproton? 10.4.00 
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Galindo-Uribarri: two proton decay: diproton? 10.4.00

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/04/10/13

Physics World archive
News: October 2000    Article  13  of 14

Physicists discover new kind of radioactivity

[24 Oct 2000] Physicists have observed a new type of radioactive decay
in which a nucleus
emits two protons at once. The team, led by Alfredo Galindo-Uribarri of
the Oak Ridge
National Laboratory in the US, believes that the discovery will help
scientists understand
the strong nuclear force and provide fresh insights into the creation of
elements inside
stars. The phenomenon - first predicted forty years ago - was reported
at a meeting in
Virginia earlier this month and has been submitted to Physical Review
Letters.

Galindo-Uribarri and co-workers chose an isotope of neon with an energy
structure that
prevents it from emitting protons one at a time. This means that the two
protons are
certainly ejected simultaneously. The team fired a beam of radioactive
fluorine ions at a
proton-rich target to produce neon-18, which then decays into oxygen and
two protons.
Any 'rogue' protons ejected from the target itself can be identified by
their characteristic
energies.

There are two ways in which the two-proton emission may proceed. The
neon nucleus
might eject a 'diproton' - a pair of protons bound together as a
helium-2 nucleus - which then
decays into separate protons. Alternatively, the protons may be emitted
separately but at
the same time - so-called 'democratic decay'. The experiment was not
sensitive enough to
establish which of these two processes was taking place.

A long search by scientists for two-proton emission has produced some
evidence that
beryllium can 'democratically' decay into an alpha particle and two
protons, but other
investigations have been inconclusive until now. Paddy Regan, a nuclear
physicist at the
University of Surrey, UK, firmly believes that Galindo-Uribarri's group
has now made the
crucial breakthrough. "The results appear to give the first indication
that the diproton exists
within the nucleus", Regan told PhysicsWeb. "Confirmation will come with
more extensive
experiments. We are now waiting with bated breath". The Oak Ridge team
is currently
planning a more sophisticated experiment that will establish the
mechanism of the decay.
*****************************************************************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 10:56:19 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot"
  11.3.00
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>It does not matter if the cooling tube is made of cookie dough.  Since the
>results are REPEATABLE, and since differing cathodes produce differing
>isotope shifts, the various cathodes act as controls for each other.  The
>independent variable,  what changes between experiments, is the cathode.

And they varied electrolyte, too. Light water control runs do not produce 
heat or anomalous elements.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 11:02:06 2000
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 14:01:05 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: JJAP hard copy reprint available
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Mizuno told me he would try to get a .pdf copy of his paper. In the 
meanwhile (or perhaps instead), he mailed me ten preprint copies. The paper is:

Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi,, 
"Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl. 
Phys. Vol.39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000

Please contact me with your mailing address if you would like. This offer 
good for the first 8 entry forms only. Void where prohibited by law. (Which 
means, "pee where the sign says not to.")

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 12:52:47 2000
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:49:51 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: RE: Quintessential Cosmology
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Steve -

At 12:03 PM -0800 11/3/00, Florek, Steven wrote:
>Is anyone aware of evidence (besides the prediction of GR) that energy in
>forms other than matter gravitates?

Cyclotrons' coils feel the additional mass of circulating proton 
beams approaching c. No, that's not direct evidence of gravitation, 
but it is at least evidence of increased mass - which *presumably* ( 
I know, never presume) has gravitation.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  4 14:19:50 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 8:01 PM
Subject: JJAP hard copy reprint available


> Mizuno told me he would try to get a .pdf copy of his paper. In the
> meanwhile (or perhaps instead), he mailed me ten preprint copies. The
paper is:
>
> Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi,,
> "Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl.
> Phys. Vol.39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000
>
> Please contact me with your mailing address if you would like. This offer
> good for the first 8 entry forms only. Void where prohibited by law.
(Which
> means, "pee where the sign says not to.")
>
> - Jed
>
> Jed,
I am interested in the preprint of the article from Mizuno e.a.
Please email them to pjvannrd knmg.nl

Best regards
Peter van Noorden

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov  5 00:08:38 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura: a tale told by an "idiot"	  11.3.00
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At 1:50 PM 11/4/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>It does not matter if the cooling tube is made of cookie dough.  Since the
>>results are REPEATABLE, and since differing cathodes produce differing
>>isotope shifts, the various cathodes act as controls for each other.  The
>>independent variable,  what changes between experiments, is the cathode.
>
>And they varied electrolyte, too. Light water control runs do not produce
>heat or anomalous elements.


Yes, again an excellent control since the results are repeatable.  That
level of control eliminates the electrodes and apparatus as a source of
contamination.  The switching of electrodes in the heavy water experiments
eliminates the electrolyte as a source of contamination, and thus the
apparatus as an indirect source as well.  The repeatable isotopic shifts
make for a very solid case.  Repeatability has been the most difficult
aspect to achieve from the beginning in 1989, so it appears this is a great
achievement.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message -----
From: Peter van Noorden <pjvannrd knmg.nl>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: JJAP hard copy reprint available


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 8:01 PM
> Subject: JJAP hard copy reprint available
>
>
> > Mizuno told me he would try to get a .pdf copy of his paper. In the
> > meanwhile (or perhaps instead), he mailed me ten preprint copies. The
> paper is:
> >
> > Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi,,
> > "Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl.
> > Phys. Vol.39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000
> >
> > Please contact me with your mailing address if you would like. This
offer
> > good for the first 8 entry forms only. Void where prohibited by law.
> (Which
> > means, "pee where the sign says not to.")
> >
> > - Jed
> >
> > Jed,
> I am interested in the preprint of the article from Mizuno e.a.
> Please email them to pjvannrd knmg.nl
>
> Best regards
> Peter van Noorden

Jed,
I didn't mention my real address im my email.
Here it is:
P.J. van Noorden
Burg.Lepelaarssingel 4
292ES Krimpen a/d IJssel
The Netherlands
>
.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov  5 22:29:24 2000
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At 2:01 PM 11/4/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mizuno told me he would try to get a .pdf copy of his paper. In the
>meanwhile (or perhaps instead), he mailed me ten preprint copies. The paper is:
>
>Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi,,
>"Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl.
>Phys. Vol.39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000
>
>Please contact me with your mailing address if you would like. This offer
>good for the first 8 entry forms only. Void where prohibited by law. (Which
>means, "pee where the sign says not to.")
>
>- Jed

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 04:42:09 2000
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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:41:11 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

Last night, there were a blackout as usual, during more than one hour. In this "opportunity", I witnessed a static discharge kind illumination from plastic ice cube matrix while trying twisting the matrix(I dont know the conventional naming of this ice mo
uld/container) forcefully to separate the cubes from each other because I had overfilled the container, and ice cubes had joined and sticked well to container.

It wasn't a total darkness, but dark enough for not see anything but some shadows. Background was almost dark as I worked partially inside the deep freeze compartment of the refrigerator. So when I twisted  the container made from standard plastic using m
y two hands, the ices are loudly cracked, many of them shattered on pieces. In this moment, I saw a faint fuzzy static discharge like illumination distributed trough ice.



Actually I dont know whether the effect is produced by solely by ice or by interaction of the plastic container.
Ice temperature was below -10 degrees, maybe up to -18 degrees.

I dont know is this a known phenomenon "illumination accompanied breaking ice" if really in my case only ice was responsible for it.


I guess if it was really breaking ice caused the effect, it should be noticed early in the history, in cold dark nights before the electricity had invented. Ironically, electrical lighting. energy we consume and all electromagnetic noise produced  by civi
lizations, prevent we observe naturally some tiny and low energy producing phenomena.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 05:37:45 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Illumination while breaking ice
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hamdi ucar wrote:

Last night, there were a blackout as usual, during more than one hour. In 
this "opportunity", I witnessed a static discharge kind illumination from 
plastic ice cube matrix while trying twisting the matrix(I dont know the 
conventional naming of this ice mould/container) forcefully to separate the 
cubes from each other because I had overfilled the container, and ice cubes 
had joined and sticked well to container.


That's interesting. It just happens that Mizuno's wife, who is also a 
physicist at Hokkaido University, has been studying light produced by 
breaking ice. They have rigged up a chamber which is very dark they are 
using photomultipliers from a neutron detector to observe this. The ice is 
made from ordinary water, not heavy water. I would like to find out if the 
effect is enhanced by heavy water.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 06:01:45 2000
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Subject: Out of JJAP reprints
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I am out of reprints. The last two went to Horace Heffner and Mitchell 
Swartz. Maybe I can xerox my copy or ask Mizuno to bring more to the 
meeting in Washington next week. He was supposed to download the .pdf file 
but when I last heard, he could not find his password. You have to remember 
to pay your dues to the Physical Society and you have to remember your 
password. That's asking a lot of a typical scientist.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 06:25:57 2000
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Subject: Welcome comments from Bill Gates regarding poverty
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Bill Gates ranks as one of the world's top ten jerks in many way. His 
business practices are questionable and his software runs from mediocre to 
awful. But his philanthropy is marvelous. His heart is in the right place 
after all. The attached New York Times article quotes several comments he 
made a recent conference about the "digital divide" and third world 
poverty. I agree with him completely. It irks me when I read about people 
trying to put computers into third world villages. For that matter, I hate 
to see people in the U.S. spend primary education dollars on computers 
instead of teaching assistants and books.

This is important to energy R&D. Schemes to provide high tech solar 
lighting systems to people living on edge of starvation are obscene. If 
cold fusion turns out to be as complex and fragile as many of the solar and 
wind generators are today, it will not help people in the third world.

The same goes for health care. Basic public health measures such as 
improved latrines and sewage treatment, clean water, vaccines, free condoms 
and infant care will save many more lives than so-called "advanced 
medicine." When impressive looking hospitals and fancy medical equipment 
drain money from public heath funding, they probably kill more people than 
they help.  Even the U.S. has too much high tech medicine and not enough 
attention to sanitation, infectious disease and resistance to antibiotics. 
One of the great scandals of our time is the resurgence of tuberculoses, a 
disease which should have been wiped out when antibiotics were discovered. 
I have been in many Japanese hospitals. They are unimpressive looking, with 
dingy, overcrowded rooms, rotten food, and long lines in the waiting room, 
but Japan's health care reaches every citizen, so their longevity, infant 
mortality, and general health is far better than the U.S. average.

- Jed


New York Times


November 3, 2000
Bill Gates Turns Skeptical on Digital Solution's Scope
By SAM HOWE VERHOVEK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary Settle for The New York Times
Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, seems to be taking his own industry to 
task these days for having far too much faith in digital solutions.


EDMOND, Wash., Nov. 1 � As the "Creating Digital Dividends" conference drew 
to a close in Seattle recently, the final speaker arrived and started 
asking skeptical questions. The premise was that "market drivers" could be 
used "to bring the benefits of connectivity and participation in the 
e-economy to all of the world's six billion people," according to 
conference materials, but the speaker would have little of it.

"I mean, do people have a clear view of what it means to live on $1 a day?" 
the speaker, William H. Gates, asked. "There's no electricity in that 
house. None."

When a moderator brought up solar power, Mr. Gates shot back, "No! You 
can't afford a solar power system for less than $1 a day." And, "You're 
just buying food, you're trying to stay alive."

It is a theme to which Mr. Gates, the world's richest man, returns in an 
interview at his office here at the Microsoft Corporation, the giant 
software maker he founded. Pacing the room, waving his hands, he conjures 
up an image of an African village that receives a computer.

"The mothers are going to walk right up to that computer and say, My 
children are dying, what can you do?" Mr. Gates says. "They're not going to 
sit there and like, browse eBay or something. What they want is for their 
children to live. They don't want their children's growth to be stunted. Do 
you really have to put in computers to figure that out?"

For a man often thought of as the world's chief evangelist for technology, 
Mr. Gates is assuming a surprising role these days, in which he seems to be 
taking his own industry to task for having far too much faith in digital 
solutions to the planet's worst ills. He openly dismisses the notion that 
the world's poorest people constitute a significant market for high-tech 
products anytime soon. Such thoughts, he says, may undercut the case for 
urgent aid to the most impoverished people.

But in a way, the man who has also become the world's biggest 
philanthropist seems to be taking himself to task, offering the confession 
that he himself was "na�ve � very na�ve" when he began his charitable 
endeavors six years ago.

When he did so, he said in the interview, he expected that projects 
involving computers and information technology would make up the bulk of 
his giving. But now his priorities are otherwise, with health care, 
especially development and distribution of vaccines, soon expected to 
account for at least two-thirds of the grants offered by the $21 billion 
Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Or, as he put it at the Seattle conference, the world's poorest two billion 
people desperately need health care right now, not laptops.

Mr. Gates said he had certainly not lost his faith in the long-term promise 
of technology to deliver a better world. But he has lost much of the faith 
he once had that global capitalism would prove capable of solving the most 
immediate catastrophes facing the world's poorest people, especially the 
40,000 deaths a day from preventable diseases. More philanthropy and more 
government aid � especially a greater contribution to foreign health 
programs by American taxpayers � are needed for that, he says.

And it also explains, he said, why he has taken on the unaccustomed role of 
self-described "troublemaker" about the promises of technology. It is a 
role he assumed at the Seattle conference, which created a stir in his 
industry and irritation among at least some of the organizers, but one that 
he seems to have played at other recent appearances.

"Whenever the computer industry has a panel about the digital divide and 
I'm on the panel, I always think, `O.K., you want to send computers to 
Africa, what about food and electricity � those computers aren't going to 
be that valuable,' " he explained in a speech last month before the Global 
Foundation in Melbourne, Australia.

"They want to sit on the panel and talk about how the computers will solve 
all the world's problems," Mr. Gates continued. "They're amazing in what 
they can do, but they have to be put into the perspective of human values. 
And certainly as a father of two children, thinking about the medicines I 
take for granted that are not available elsewhere, that sort of rises to 
the top of the list."

Some people in Mr. Gates's industry have commended him for his recent 
comments, while others have accused him of setting up a straw man. Nothing 
in the quest for a more wired world, they say, is at odds with the notion 
that food and health care remain a more immediate concern.

And still others, including some of Microsoft's principal competitors, 
argue that Mr. Gates is downright wrong. They say there are all kinds of 
tangible, profitable products that their industry is developing that will 
help improve people's lives, including the world's poorest people. Some 
directly involved in the conference here, sponsored by the nonprofit World 
Resources Institute, seemed annoyed by Mr. Gates's comments.

"After listening to three days of serious analysis and work, and then to 
have Gates rather flippantly say, `You've got to have clean water and 
food,' to hear that simple repetition of Maslow's hierarchy, that wasn't 
exactly furthering the point of the entire meeting," said John Gage, the 
chief research officer for Sun Microsystems and the founder of Netday, a 
global volunteer effort to connect schools to the Internet.

Mr. Gage's reference was to Abraham H. Maslow, the psychologist who 
suggested that human beings reach fulfillment through satisfying a series 
of needs, which begins with basic physiological needs like food and water 
and rises to others that include love, self-esteem and personal expression. 
Where Mr. Gates has it wrong, Mr. Gage argued, is that technology is 
rapidly being used to satisfy even the most basic needs on the hierarchy.

Mr. Gage, known as a periodic critic of Mr. Gates, said that the declining 
cost of cell phones and other hand-held mobile technology would soon make 
them immensely useful for even the poorest people. They might use the 
devices to share important information about health care and food 
conditions, he said.

Others in the industry were more measured in their response to Mr. Gates's 
recent comments. "I think he's right and he's wrong," said James F. Moore, 
chairman of GeoPartners Research Inc., which specializes in technology and 
economic- development issues. "He's right, and I'd emphatically support him 
on this, that other divides are more important than the digital divide: the 
divide on health care, the human- rights divide, the education divide."

But in the view of Mr. Moore, a policy adviser to Hewlett-Packard, which 
recently announced a $1 billion program to focus on new markets in the 
third world, "what's going on here is that people are really trying to 
think about the essence of high technology and what it can do. And I would 
say I think he's missing something by being so dismissive of these markets."

Mr. Gates, however, seems adamant on the point. "Anybody who says, `Oh 
sure, we'll sell to the people who live on a dollar a day,' they just don't 
get it," he said. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 07:37:32 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Illumination while breaking ice
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>Hi,
>
>Last night, there were a blackout as usual, during more than one hour. In
>this "opportunity", I witnessed a static discharge kind illumination from
>plastic ice cube matrix while trying twisting the matrix(I dont know the
>conventional naming of this ice mould/container) forcefully to separate
>the cubes from each other because I had overfilled the container, and ice
>cubes had joined and sticked well to container.
>
>It wasn't a total darkness, but dark enough for not see anything but some
>shadows. Background was almost dark as I worked partially inside the deep
>freeze compartment of the refrigerator. So when I twisted  the container
>made from standard plastic using my two hands, the ices are loudly
>cracked, many of them shattered on pieces. In this moment, I saw a faint
>fuzzy static discharge like illumination distributed trough ice.
>
>
>
>Actually I dont know whether the effect is produced by solely by ice or by
>interaction of the plastic container.
>Ice temperature was below -10 degrees, maybe up to -18 degrees.
>
>I dont know is this a known phenomenon "illumination accompanied breaking
>ice" if really in my case only ice was responsible for it.
>
>
>I guess if it was really breaking ice caused the effect, it should be
>noticed early in the history, in cold dark nights before the electricity
>had invented. Ironically, electrical lighting. energy we consume and all
>electromagnetic noise produced  by civilizations, prevent we observe
>naturally some tiny and low energy producing phenomena.
>
>Regards,
>hamdi ucar

***{Hi Hamdi. When mechanical stress is applied to certain crystals, the
result is an uneven distribution of charge. This is the well known
piezoelectric effect. When the stress exceeds the strength of the material,
resulting in breakage, one piece, typically the smaller piece (as I
recall), carries away an excess of electrons (negative charge) while the
larger piece carries away a positive charge. During a thunderstorm, for
example, collisions between hailstones result in the production of small
and large fragments, with the smaller fragments carrying negative charges.
The small fragments are then carried to the higher reaches of the cloud by
updrafts, while the larger ones fall to the ground or remain suspended at
lower levels. When the charge difference between the regions containing the
small and large particles becomes large enough, the result is a huge
arc--lightning--between the two regions.

As for the visible aspect of the ice cube phenomenon, when the potential
difference is large enough, what is known as a corona discharge can result.
This occurs in thunderstorms and, apparently, in your kitchen when you
break ice cubes. (Not unusual, by the way: I have a blanket that produces a
visible corona when I readjust its position in the middle of the night. The
glow only lasts for an instant, but it is quite unmistakeable.)

--Mitchell Jones

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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Mitch,

I know the phenomenon of charge generation and discharge on breaking and stressing materials.
An exciting example although not apparently electrical related, but heat related was breaking of metallic-glass cause sparking. The news was at http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sparking-metallic-glass.html

You may notice that im my description of my observation I did not suggested it was an electrical discharge.
It can be anything else for the moment.

But you may right because I just tried to measure the conductance (resistance) of a piece of ice and I found it exceed range of my multimeter. So it may be possible that charge can be buildup and cause visible discharge.

A good researcher should not throw out observation results, without CONFIRMING the possibility of common explanations.  It would be worth to try to observe electrical/electromagnetic activities directly, my scope or
from an AM/FM radio for static. Anyway it is interesting phenomena in my opinion.

It is twice interesting because it could be naturally occurring in large scale anywhere the ice forms.
It may even occurs on Europa and may trigger the life there. :). (Originally we had told at school, lightning on Earth caused to first organic materials form and lead to life. So in the case of Europa, this may occurred inside the ice.)



Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> 
> ***{Hi Hamdi. When mechanical stress is applied to certain crystals, the
> result is an uneven distribution of charge. This is the well known
> piezoelectric effect. When the stress exceeds the strength of the material,
> resulting in breakage, one piece, typically the smaller piece (as I
> recall), carries away an excess of electrons (negative charge) while the
> larger piece carries away a positive charge. During a thunderstorm, for
> example, collisions between hailstones result in the production of small
> and large fragments, with the smaller fragments carrying negative charges.
> The small fragments are then carried to the higher reaches of the cloud by
> updrafts, while the larger ones fall to the ground or remain suspended at
> lower levels. When the charge difference between the regions containing the
> small and large particles becomes large enough, the result is a huge
> arc--lightning--between the two regions.
> 
[snip]
> 
> --Mitchell Jones


Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:52:04 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome comments from Bill Gates regarding poverty
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>Bill Gates ranks as one of the world's top ten jerks in many way. 
>His business practices are questionable and his software runs from 
>mediocre to awful. But his philanthropy is marvelous. His heart is 
>in the right place after all.



>The same goes for health care. Basic public health measures such as 
>improved latrines and sewage treatment, clean water, vaccines, free 
>condoms and infant care will save many more lives than so-called 
>"advanced medicine."
>- Jed
>
>
>New York Times
>
>
>November 3, 2000
>Bill Gates Turns Skeptical on Digital Solution's Scope
>By SAM HOWE VERHOVEK
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This was an excellent article Jed. thanks for calling it to my attention.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 14:56:37 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Notes on Iwamura experiment
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For several years, Iwamura has said that their electrochemical experiment 
has three goals, which they base on their working theory, the "electron 
induced nuclear reaction model":

1. High D/Pd ratio. Standard for all cold fusion working theories.

2. Rapid diffusion flux of deuterium through the palladium. McKubre also 
emphasizes this. It is a function of the equation he uses to model the 
level of excess heat.

3. The existence of a third element in the palladium, a material with high 
work function (lottsa free electrons). This material is added to the top of 
the palladium, and then another layer of palladium is added on top of it. 
This seems to make a big difference in performance, making reproduceability 
100%.

I cannot judge whether the model is valid or not, but the technique seems 
effective.

Mizuno and other electrochemists at the conference made some interesting 
comments about the rapid diffusion with what I call the "membrane" cathode. 
With this type of cathode, the deuterium goes in on one side, migrates 
through, and comes out of the vacuum side. In an ordinary electrochemical 
cell with a foil cathode, the deuterium is forced in from both sides of the 
cathode and eventually it escapes out of the surfaces and sides. Mizuno 
says that with this conventional arrangement, the cathode will 
preferentially absorb and retain hydrogen instead of deuterium. All heavy 
water has light water mixed in with it, which it absorbs from the 
atmosphere. The longer you use a batch of electrolyte, the more it becomes 
contaminated with light water, despite elaborate precautions. With 
conventional electrolysis, both hydrogen and deuterium go into the cathode, 
but the deuterium comes out more easily, so the concentration of hydrogen 
in the cathode increases even more than in the electrolyte. With the 
Iwamura technique, both heavy and light hydrogen sweep through the cathode 
continuously, and the ratio of heavy to light hydrogen in the cathode 
remains the same as the ratio in the electrolyte.

I do not know the cause of this preferential retention rate. I think they 
mentioned something about hydrogen being captured in voids between metal 
grains. There should not be many voids, or the cathode will swell with 
excess volume, and it will not produce heat, according to Storms, but I 
suppose every sample of metal has some voids, and if they become stagnant 
pools of H2 gas I guess it lowers the D/Pd ratio.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 18:56:51 2000
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:51:54 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Illumination while breaking ice
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>Hi Mitch,
>
>I know the phenomenon of charge generation and discharge on breaking and
>stressing materials.
>An exciting example although not apparently electrical related, but heat
>related was breaking of metallic-glass cause sparking. The news was at
>http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sparking-metallic-glass.html

***{Very interesting, but I'll bet it is just a case of arcing engendered
by a piezoelectric discharge. (Arcs can be very hot.) --MJ}***

>
>You may notice that in my description of my observation I did not suggest
>it was an electrical >discharge. It can be anything else for the moment.

***{Standard physics ought to be assumed, until there is evidence to the
contrary. What is your evidence that it is anything other than the
well-known and oft-discussed phenomenon that I described? --MJ}***

>
>But you may right because I just tried to measure the conductance
>(resistance) of a piece of ice
> and I found it exceed range of my multimeter. So it may be possible that
>charge can be
> buildup and cause visible discharge.
>
>A good researcher should not throw out observation results, without
>CONFIRMING the possibility of common explanations.

***{That puts the cart before the horse. When there is a straightforward
and mundane explanation for a phenomenon, you should assume that's what is
happening and move on. It is only if there is something about the
phenomenon that resists such an explanation--something anomalous--that you
should invest time and effort on further investigation. Otherwise, you are
going to waste most of your research budget going over ground that has been
gone over a thousand times before. --MJ}***

It would be worthwhile to try to observe electrical/electromagnetic
activities directly, by scope or
>from an AM/FM radio for static. Anyway it is an interesting phenomenon in
>my opinion.

***{Agreed. I have seen clouds glow green from the effects of internal
corona discharges (usually in connection with tornadic activity), but I
have never seen an ice cube spark when broken. (Though, of course, I have
never broken one in the dark. :-) --MJ}***

>
>It is twice interesting because it could be naturally occurring in large
>scale anywhere the ice forms.

***{Yes. For example, time-lapse satellite photos of the polar ice packs
taken at night might show the paths of cracking in the ice sheet. I wonder
if such an analysis has been done. --MJ}***

>It may even occurs on Europa and may trigger the life there. :).
>(Originally we had told at school, lightning on Earth caused to first
>organic materials form and lead to life. So in the case of Europa, this
>may occurred inside the ice.)

***{Here is a link to an interesting article about Europa:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-00p1.html. --MJ}***

[snip]

>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 19:33:53 2000
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 <mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Subject: Comment about the Japan Cold Fusion Research Society
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November 5, 2,000

Vortex,

This 'unofficial' JCF-Research Society was formed in 1999. It has held
its second Conference to which Jed Rothwell has attended. I do not know
what the membership list consists of.  But it is supposedly an open
ended membership Society of multi-disciplinary fields, .
There is a list of Founders and Directors. Among the Founders I see
names of individuals active in this field, like Mizuno, Ohmori,
Takahashi, Kozima, Yamaguchi, Notoys, and Arata to name a few names
brought out on Vortex.
However, what bothers me greatly of this Society's Founders List is the
missing name of Zhang. I believe she is fully qualified to be included
in the Founder's List along with Arata, seeing that she is co-author to
many papers published by Arata(and Zhang) on Cold Fusion. Certainly she
is active in the laboratory. At least the Society has included Reiko
Notoya so there is no hang-ups on gender. Perhaps the named Directors
can explain this lapse.

-AK- .




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 21:45:48 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >
> >You may notice that in my description of my observation I did not suggest
> >it was an electrical >discharge. It can be anything else for the moment.
> 
> ***{Standard physics ought to be assumed, until there is evidence to the
> contrary. What is your evidence that it is anything other than the
> well-known and oft-discussed phenomenon that I described? --MJ}***


This was my earlier practice. It is incorrect causing self suppression. If there
is a conventional explanation for the effect, one should be sure of it. Simply assuming
by stating "it may be caused by ..." is not enough. One should be sure by doing further
observations or experiments. If It it was really caused conventionally 
and no questions remains, one can throw away it safely now (at least for economic reasons), but not before.

To answer your question, for example it (light) may be caused by kind of sonoluminescence
excited by the shock waves of cracking. It is already known that snow crystals falling into
sea, causing ultrasonic noise which disturb sonars. Anything can be happen.
> 
> >
> >A good researcher should not throw out observation results, without
> >CONFIRMING the possibility of common explanations.
> 
> ***{That puts the cart before the horse. When there is a straightforward
> and mundane explanation for a phenomenon, you should assume that's what is
> happening and move on. 

Generally, the initial observation of the effect have not enough data to confirm
a hypothesis. If one have a hypothesis (conventional in this case) further observations
are needed to satisfy the requirement of the hypothesis. If observations fits completely, 
then you can right to think it is not an anomalous phenomenon. This is not economic of course.

Maybe for this reason, researchers are mostly working in the guide of a theory or a hypothesis, 
and doing experiments to fulfills the theory. This is economic. As summary one should design and do
experiments which the results are manageable under theories. You have a theory and experiment on it.
It is fine and economic. This is conventional physics. In weird physics this can not be applicable
most of time. So weird physics is very costly.


> It is only if there is something about the
> phenomenon that resists such an explanation--something anomalous--that you
> should invest time and effort on further investigation. Otherwise, you are
> going to waste most of your research budget going over ground that has been
> gone over a thousand times before. --MJ}***

One should be very lucky to catch an effect in the first stage of an experiment
which immediately resist any conventional explanation. If one try for example to produce
overunity effect or self powering device, this is more costly (because it needs incredible
number of trial to catch it) than working carefully analyzing effects to advance
step by step, to obtain an effect finally can not be explained by conventional means.

[snip]

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  6 23:27:22 2000
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Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
[snip]
> but when I last heard, he could not find his password. You have to
> remember 
> to pay your dues to the Physical Society and you have to remember your 
> password. That's asking a lot of a typical scientist.

Yep. I pay my dues, but I can never find the $# !^$)password.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 00:47:41 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Inductive Coupling of Leptons to Protons/Deuterons
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:44:04 -0800
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 Robin,

Since the Electron and Muon are both Leptons, going over the
orbits and energy for the theorized Light Leptons reveals that
Any Relativistic Lepton can couple to, or Orbit the P+ or D+ ion.

Force Centrifugal, Fc = Mrel*v^2/R =  Force Electrostatic, Fes = kq^2/R^2

Then, the orbital radius, R = kq^2/(Mrel*c^2).

Since the potential + kinetic energy, V =  - kq/R and the Potential or
Kinetic energy, V = - kq/2R, the 
Orbital Relativistic Mass, Mrel = Mo[(E-kinetic/Eo) + 1] or
the relativistic gamma = [(E-kinetic/Eo) + 1] where Eo is the rest Energy
of the Lepton (mc^2). Since the Muon can orbit close enough to
"catalyze" 125 Fusion Reactions in it's 2.2 Microsecond lifetime, I see
no reason why an electron with a mass 1/212 that of the Muon can't
create a Neutral P* or D* Particle and do the same thing.

IOW,  it seems that an Electron/Lepton can fall into an orbit about a  D+ ion
with an energy V = kq/R in the range of 2.5 Mev or so, and cause
the "Proton, P+" portion of the Deuteron to become a Neutral Particle
and separate the Deuteron into a Hydrino and a Neutron, ie., low
energy Deuteron "Stripping", which ordinarily requires ~ 2.24 Mev.

If the energy V= kq/R  (2.24 Mev)divides equally into potential and kinetic
the kinetic energy is 2.24/2 = 1.12 Mev and the gamma is [(1.12/0.511) +1]
which is ~ 3.0 and Mrel becomes ~ 3.0* 9.1E-31 kg with the orbital velocity
~ = c and the orbital radius, R = kq^2/(3.0*9.1E-31*c^2) which is 
about 1.0 Fermi. About the radius needed for "Quantum Mechanical Tunneling".

It seems that the Low Energy Stripping only requires the Dissociation of
D2 to the 2 D atoms, which requires ~ 4.5 ev, without the necessity of Ionization
but a mechanism that allows the atomic electron to fall into close (Mev)orbit
around the P+ or D+.

The more this is pursued, the better Mills' Hydrino creation mechanism looks.

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 05:32:39 2000
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 07:27:00 -0600
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Vorts,

Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and 
protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is 
essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.

Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you 
run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized 
by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first, 
ask questions later" attitude.

Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international 
responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please 
get out and vote for Al Gore today.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 05:58:49 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Notes on Iwamura experiment
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At 5:43 PM 11/6/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>For several years, Iwamura has said that their electrochemical experiment
>has three goals, which they base on their working theory, the "electron
>induced nuclear reaction model":
>
>1. High D/Pd ratio. Standard for all cold fusion working theories.
>
>2. Rapid diffusion flux of deuterium through the palladium. McKubre also
>emphasizes this. It is a function of the equation he uses to model the
>level of excess heat.
>
>3. The existence of a third element in the palladium, a material with high
>work function (lottsa free electrons). This material is added to the top of
>the palladium, and then another layer of palladium is added on top of it.
>This seems to make a big difference in performance, making reproduceability
>100%.

Some general observations regarding the above.

Item 3 seems to be somewhat consistent with a theory Bill Page put foreward
a some years ago that CF was occuring at a QM phase boundary.  I didn't
fully understand what Bill Page was saying about this, but it seems to be
similar in nature.

Item 2 is related to and consistent with the CETI bead design in that the
back side of the beads was comprised of a sulfonated polystyrene, a proton
conductor, and thus the flow of hydrogen would be expected to be one way
through the depositied metallic layers.  A small crack anywhere on the
surface results in the interior of the bead being at near atmospheric
pressure, and that crack is guaranteed because the interior pressure rising
much at all guarantees a crack results in the thin surface plating.  The
CETI beads might have been improved by laser etching or etching by some
other means to provide exit holes for the interior gas so as to maintain
the integrity of the surface coating.  Alternatively, thin hollow proton
conducting tubes could have been externally plated.  (I think I suggested
that some years back, but I don't think anyone tried it.)  Since the
pressure in highly loaded Pd is many atmospheres, there should not be all
that much difference between a vacuum back side and a 1 bar back side to
the cathode.

Perhaps an electoplated thin film of sulfonated polystyrene backed by
increasingly coarse layers of steel mesh would work well as a cathode
designed for a vacuum back side. Building layers of the right metals may
require a combination of electroplating and vacuum deposition.  From the
description of Item 3, alternating layers of zirconium (or possibly even
aluminum) and Pd might work well?   This would produce an interface between
face centered cubic and hexagonal lattices - lots of varied size
interstitital spaces.  Tin, with a tetragonal structure, might also be
interesting and comparatively easy to sandwich in Pd.  A layer of iron
could be fairly thick and still preserve a high proton conductivity.
Peraps the starting place should be an iron based film, to be plated with
Pd.  Semiconducting layers may produce some surprises.

There really is a very large number of combinations of things to
investigate suggested by items 1 - 3 above.  One of the main problems may
be making the layers sandwiched in the Pd thin enough so as not to block
the proton migration, since most metals block hydrogen diffusion.

Perhaps layers of ceramic proton conductors would be useful - even though
they require operation at high temperatures.  An all gas cell would be
required.  Instead of electrolysis to do the loading, gas ionization could
be used.  This would be achieved by replacing the electrolyte with a high
pressure hydrogen gas, and then driving the gas to the cathode by ionizing
it via a hot anode.  Current would have to be artificially limited to
prevent the formation of a destructive arc.

Just some more food for thought.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 07:31:23 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
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On 07-Nov-00, Scott Little, wrote:
>Vorts,

>Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and 
>protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is 
>essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.

>Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you 
>run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized 
>by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first, 
>ask questions later" attitude.

>Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international 
>responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please 
>get out and vote for Al Gore today.

 Nope!!! I like the crowd that BUSH has chosen, to help fumigate the place :)

LandSlide, for BUSH, today :^)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 07:45:46 2000
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 07:04:49 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <3A081A11.DCA9E21C pacbell.net>
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Although many Vorts will likely not agree with the political nature of Scott's
remarks, he is right-on in my opinion.

Scott Little wrote:

> Vorts,
>
> Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
> protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
> essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
>
> Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you
> run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
> by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
> ask questions later" attitude.

Not only that, but from the context of alternative energy, if there is any
remote chance of ever obtaining adequate government funding for CF, sonofusion,
accelerated decay or any of the other fringe science proposals that will
eventually lead to a reduction of fossil fuel use, it will come from the Gore
camp.

Bush/ Cheny is absolutely, 100%, unquestionably controlled and financed by oil
interests.

>
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.

Well said.

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 08:22:33 2000
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
Message-ID: <e3.c10face.27398558 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:18:32 EST
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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In a message dated 11/7/00 5:32:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
little earthtech.org writes:


> 
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international 
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please 
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.
> 
> 
> 

I have the highest regard for Scott, his respect for truth and his scientific 
acumen.  In spite of this, I cannot accept the recommendation to vote for 
Algore.  I have participated in a technical conference on ocean resources 
with Algore and read his book. In my opoinion, he distorts scientific fact, 
truth and integrety to make the political point of more power to big 
government.

With continuing respect for Scott, I will cast my usual vote for the 
Libertarian candidate, Harry Brown.  

Bob Briggs

--part1_e3.c10face.27398558_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/7/00 5:32:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>little earthtech.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international 
<BR>responsibilities. &nbsp;If you're still on the fence in this election, please 
<BR>get out and vote for Al Gore today.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>I have the highest regard for Scott, his respect for truth and his scientific <BR>acumen. &nbsp;In spite of this, I cannot accept the recommendation to vote for <BR>Algore. &nbsp;I have participated in a technical conference on ocean resources <BR>wit
h Algore and read his book. In my opoinion, he distorts scientific fact, <BR>truth and integrety to make the political point of more power to big <BR>government.
<BR>
<BR>With continuing respect for Scott, I will cast my usual vote for the <BR>Libertarian candidate, Harry Brown. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Bob Briggs</FONT></HTML>

--part1_e3.c10face.27398558_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 08:44:20 2000
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From: "Craig Haynie" <cchaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001107070200.03650210 earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:41:09 -0600
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I speculate that we disagree on the idea that government can, somehow, be
'compassionate', when government is nothing more than cold, brute, force,
preventing anyone who disagrees from doing anything other than that which it
directs. Therefore the Democrats' ideas to have government direct social
policy is, fundamentally, an idea ill-rooted in the aggressive nature of
government. Such ideas are contrary to the idea of a voluntary, peaceful,
society.

George Bush is a good man. His principles and philosophy are sound. Harry
Browne, however, is my choice.

Sincerely,

Craig (Houston)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Little" <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 7:27 AM
Subject: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas


> Vorts,
>
> Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
> protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
> essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
>
> Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but
you
> run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
> by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
> ask questions later" attitude.
>
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing
international
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.
>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 08:44:32 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:42:26 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
Resent-Message-ID: <"hstxc1.0.1n7.C432w" mx1>
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>Vorts,
>
>Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
>protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
>essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
>
>Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you
>run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
>by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
>ask questions later" attitude.
>
>Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
>responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
>get out and vote for Al Gore today.

***{There has never been a presidential election in U.S. history in which
the popular vote was decided by one vote. (The vote on the Aaron Burr thing
took place in the House of Representatives after the Electoral College
deadlocked.) What that means is that if you had been alive and eligible to
vote from the first election to the present one, you could have stayed at
home every time, and the same guy would *always* have taken office. Bottom
line: the system is a fraud; your vote doesn't count for a hill of beans;
and going to the polls is quite literally a waste of time.

As for Gore and Bush, it is Tweedle Dum versus Tweedle Dee. They agree that
the Constitution and its notion of "inalienable rights" has the status of
toilet paper, and that it is OK for them to rob, murder, or order us around
whenever they decide it is "in the public interest." The dispute between
them is about which of them gets to screw us, and nothing more.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 08:56:46 2000
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	Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:54:38 -0800
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:45:30 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Comment about the Japan Cold Fusion Research Society
In-Reply-To: <3A0778E5.43C75810 ix.netcom.com>
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

However, what bothers me greatly of this Society's Founders List is the
>missing name of Zhang. I believe she is fully qualified to be included
>in the Founder's List along with Arata, seeing that she is co-author to
>many papers published by Arata(and Zhang) on Cold Fusion.

I'm sure there is no prejudice against her. She probably never bothered to 
pay the dues when they were setting up, or they forgot to ask. Is she 
listed as a member now? They're anxious to attract members, especially 
since they have only $700 left in the bank account. Mizuno paid for the 
refreshments and the sign (kamban) in front of the building at the JCF2 
conference.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 08:58:12 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Jones Beene <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:53:24 PST8
Message-ID: <yam8346.1216.19713568 mail.earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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On 07-Nov-00, Jones Beene, wrote:
>Although many Vorts will likely not agree with the political nature of
Scott's
>remarks, he is right-on in my opinion.

>Scott Little wrote:

>> Vorts,
>>
>> Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
>> protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
>> essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
>>
>> Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you
>> run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
>> by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
>> ask questions later" attitude.

>Not only that, but from the context of alternative energy, if there is any
>remote chance of ever obtaining adequate government funding for CF,
>sonofusion,
>accelerated decay or any of the other fringe science proposals that will
>eventually lead to a reduction of fossil fuel use, it will come from the Gore
>camp.

>Bush/ Cheny is absolutely, 100%, unquestionably controlled and financed by
oil
>interests.

>>
>> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
>> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
>> get out and vote for Al Gore today.

>Well said.

>Jones Beene

Sorry, folks, I'm enamoured by the idea of cold fusion or OU, I root
for you, all; but my big engined '68 Mustang Conv still burns petro,
and lots of it! Right now, without oil, this country collapes; simple.

I don't like the idea that we have to kill, to keep it.
We need to start using our own.

Love you guys ;^) 
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 09:00:03 2000
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Jones Beene <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:57:29 PST8
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On 07-Nov-00, Jones Beene, wrote:

>Bush/ Cheny is absolutely, 100%, unquestionably controlled and 
>financed by oil interests.

 Clinton/Gore, went to the Red Chinese, fer cryin' out loud!
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 09:01:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:56:12 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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>
> In a message dated 11/7/00 5:32:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> little earthtech.org writes:
>
>
>
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.
>
>
>
>
> I have the highest regard for Scott, his respect for truth and his scientific
> acumen.  In spite of this, I cannot accept the recommendation to vote for
> Algore.  I have participated in a technical conference on ocean resources
> with Algore and read his book. In my opoinion, he distorts scientific fact,
> truth and integrety to make the political point of more power to big
> government.
>
> With continuing respect for Scott, I will cast my usual vote for the
> Libertarian candidate, Harry Brown.  
>
> Bob Briggs

***{And, despite what people in the Bush and Gore camps will tell you, you
will *not* be any more guilty of "wasting your vote" than they are. After
all, under "one man, one vote," *all* votes are wasted. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 09:24:46 2000
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Message-ID: <000d01c048de$021d7b40$376f9ec3 premier>
Reply-To: "JJ Mercieca" <mufor maltanet.net>
From: "JJ Mercieca" <mufor maltanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <yam8346.1463.19713568 mail.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:13:11 +0100
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> >Bush/ Cheny is absolutely, 100%, unquestionably controlled and 
> >financed by oil interests.
> 
>  Clinton/Gore, went to the Red Chinese, fer cryin' out loud!

>From the point of view of a non-American (I'm from the Mediterranean
island of Malta) W. Bush, Bush and Reagan are my preferred US Presidents.
I've always found that Republicans have more to offer the world than
Democrats.

Regards,

JJ Mercieca
www.mufor.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 09:44:37 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:41:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The evil of two lessers
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When I finish writing this I'm going to go and vote.

I will have to hold my nose when I do it,  I don't trust George W, I 
don't doubt that he is bull headed. He doesn't impress me as being 
particularly intellectual either.

But no way can I stand by and see Algore get the job. I don't know 
how many of you have had to deal with a pathological liar, but I 
can't stand it. Algore didn't invent the Internet. Someone emailed me 
a page of Algore's lies. Listed one after another they fill a long 
paragraph. Lying indicates a severe character defect.

Rush is talking about broken glass Republicans, people who would 
crawl through broken glass to vote the Clinton administration out. 
Well I'm not a Republican, but I would crawl through broken glass to 
get rid of the liberals.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 09:51:32 2000
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Jed,
The explanation for the effects of hydrogen impurity and diffusing deuterium
are not correct as I describe below.
Ed Storms

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> For several years, Iwamura has said that their electrochemical experiment
> has three goals, which they base on their working theory, the "electron
> induced nuclear reaction model":
>
> 1. High D/Pd ratio. Standard for all cold fusion working theories.
>
> 2. Rapid diffusion flux of deuterium through the palladium. McKubre also
> emphasizes this. It is a function of the equation he uses to model the
> level of excess heat.

All samples experience a flux because almost all of the deuterium made
available to an electrolyzing surface enters the Pd lattice and diffuses to
internal cracks where it is released as D2. Consequently, no matter how the
experiment is designed, a flux of D+ will exist within the Pd structure. As
long as the current is constant, the amount of diffusion is constant and
independent of electrode design. In McKubre's case, he changed the current,
thereby changed the amount of diffusing flux.  His equations are based on this
additional flux, not on the steady background flux. When the number of cracks
is small, the composition must increase to a higher value so that the flux of
H+ made at the surface can be released as H2 at a rate equal to the rate at
which H+ is formed.

In the Mizuno case, the backside of the Pd plate acts like a very large crack,
i.e. a region from which the H2 can be lost very easily. Consequently, the
maximum composition that can be achieved within the Pd is less than would be
the case when both sides are electrolyzed. To the extent that he produces
excess energy, the source of this energy is clearly not very sensitive to the
D/Pd ratio.  This being the case and, as described above, the flux not being
any greater than in the P-F cell, the source of energy must involve the
layered structure, because this is the only unique feature in this
experiment.  I suggest Mizuno concentrate on this region and avoid involving
other factors that do not apply.


>
> 3. The existence of a third element in the palladium, a material with high
> work function (lottsa free electrons). This material is added to the top of
> the palladium, and then another layer of palladium is added on top of it.
> This seems to make a big difference in performance, making reproduceability
> 100%.
>
> I cannot judge whether the model is valid or not, but the technique seems
> effective.
>
> Mizuno and other electrochemists at the conference made some interesting
> comments about the rapid diffusion with what I call the "membrane" cathode.
> With this type of cathode, the deuterium goes in on one side, migrates
> through, and comes out of the vacuum side. In an ordinary electrochemical
> cell with a foil cathode, the deuterium is forced in from both sides of the
> cathode and eventually it escapes out of the surfaces and sides. Mizuno
> says that with this conventional arrangement, the cathode will
> preferentially absorb and retain hydrogen instead of deuterium. All heavy
> water has light water mixed in with it, which it absorbs from the
> atmosphere. The longer you use a batch of electrolyte, the more it becomes
> contaminated with light water, despite elaborate precautions. With
> conventional electrolysis, both hydrogen and deuterium go into the cathode,
> but the deuterium comes out more easily, so the concentration of hydrogen
> in the cathode increases even more than in the electrolyte. With the
> Iwamura technique, both heavy and light hydrogen sweep through the cathode
> continuously, and the ratio of heavy to light hydrogen in the cathode
> remains the same as the ratio in the electrolyte.

This model is not correct.  The increased concentration of H in a Pd lattice
is controlled by the energetics of H+ and D+ formation at the electrolyzing
surface.  H+ is more exothermic during its absorption into the lattice
compared to D+. Consequently, the stream of ions entering the lattice will
have a higher H+ content compared to the concentration in the solution and
this ratio within the lattice does not change with time.  The H/D ratio within
the Mizuno electrode will be the same as the ratio in the P-F electrode, given
the same ratio within the electrolyte.

>
> I do not know the cause of this preferential retention rate. I think they
> mentioned something about hydrogen being captured in voids between metal
> grains. There should not be many voids, or the cathode will swell with
> excess volume, and it will not produce heat, according to Storms, but I
> suppose every sample of metal has some voids, and if they become stagnant
> pools of H2 gas I guess it lowers the D/Pd ratio.

The H2/D2 ratio within voids is complex because H2 has a lower pressure than
D2 for the same (H+D)/Pd ratio. For example at 300K, the pressure of H2 over
pure PdH0.9 is 1.4x10^4 atm while the D2 pressure over PdD0.9 is 8.8x10^4
atm.  If the solid solution between PdD and PdH is ideal, a H+/D+ ratio of 0.1
(a likely value for a relatively pure electrolyte) would produce a H2/D2 ratio
with in the voids of 1.8x10^-2 at Pd(D+H)0.9.  Consequently, the voids do not
contain mainly H2.

>
>
> - Jed

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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Mitchell Jones <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 09:57:09 PST8
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On 07-Nov-00, Mitchell Jones, wrote:

>[...]

>As for Gore and Bush, it is Tweedle Dum versus Tweedle Dee. They agree that
>the Constitution and its notion of "inalienable rights" has the status of
>toilet paper, and that it is OK for them to rob, murder, or order us around
>whenever they decide it is "in the public interest." The dispute between
>them is about which of them gets to screw us, and nothing more.

 I disagree, Mitch. Gore wants to see the death of the Second Amendent.
 Until congress caught his ass, Clinton tried to do in the Tenth Amendment :( 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:20:01 2000
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To: thomas malloy <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:16:01 PST8
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On 07-Nov-00, thomas malloy, wrote:
>When I finish writing this I'm going to go and vote.

>I will have to hold my nose when I do it,  I don't trust George W, I 
>don't doubt that he is bull headed. He doesn't impress me as being 
>particularly intellectual either.

>But no way can I stand by and see Algore get the job. I don't know 
>how many of you have had to deal with a pathological liar, but I 
>can't stand it. Algore didn't invent the Internet. Someone emailed me 
>a page of Algore's lies. Listed one after another they fill a long 
>paragraph. Lying indicates a severe character defect.

>Rush is talking about broken glass Republicans, people who would 
>crawl through broken glass to vote the Clinton administration out. 
>Well I'm not a Republican, but I would crawl through broken glass to 
>get rid of the liberals.

MegaDittos, Thomas :)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:48:29 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 18:46:00 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Scott,

On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 07:27:00 -0600, Scott Little
<little earthtech.org> wrote:

>Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and 
>protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is 
>essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
>
>Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you 
>run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized 
>by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first, 
>ask questions later" attitude.
>
>Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international 
>responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please 
>get out and vote for Al Gore today.

Sorry, but I disagree.

We're currently in the international mess due almost solely to the
actions and inactions of the current administration.  There is no
coherent (known in advance) foreign policy.  Continuing to bumble
along in the same mold will keep making things worse.

BTW, if you'll look at history, you'll note that it's been primarily
the Democrat administrations that "shoot first, ask questions later"
in regards to foreign military activity (and in every case, it's been
a Democrat-controlled Congress).

Also, I'm dead set against our having "growing international
responsibilities."   We're NOT the world's policemen -- indeed, there
should be no world policemen, IMO.

Harry Browne is the candidate that gets my vote.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:50:27 2000
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:55:17 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Vorts,
> 
> Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
> protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
> essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
> 
> Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you
> run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
> by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
> ask questions later" attitude.
> 
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.

We must stop all this nationalist pride and establish a one world
government so that we can join the galactic empire!  

A vote for Bush is a vote for the new world order!  

Down with the socialist democratic party!  Up with a global
currency and and capitalism!  

Get that bastard's arms out from around that tree so that we can
cut it down -- JAPAN NEEDS LUMBER!  

Power to Coke, GM, and Monsanto!

Viva la Illuminati!  Hail the CFR!  Praise the Bilderburgers! 
Embrace the skull & bones!

Bring on the boys in the blue hats!  Worship Xenu!  Vote
Republican!

Not that it will make one hill of beans who is elected -- they
don't run the show.  Alan Greenspan does.

-Jaded Cynic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:50:42 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:46:41 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System
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I found Robert Cook's website. The URL is www.forceborne.com

Robert's book, The Man Who Changed the Future, was published in a 
limited edition of 200 which promptly sold out. He is going to do a 
second edition when he gets around to it, probably next spring. In 
the mean time he is constructing another prototype. It will have four 
rotors instead of two. This improvement is to satisify the concerns 
of Boeing's technical evaluators.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:51:38 2000
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>All samples experience a flux because almost all of the deuterium made
>available to an electrolyzing surface enters the Pd lattice and diffuses to
>internal cracks where it is released as D2. Consequently, no matter how the
>experiment is designed, a flux of D+ will exist within the Pd structure. As
>long as the current is constant, the amount of diffusion is constant and
>independent of electrode design. In McKubre's case, he changed the current,
>thereby changed the amount of diffusing flux.  His equations are based on this
>additional flux, not on the steady background flux. . . .

What about the issue of the moving deuterons reaching all parts of the 
cathode? Is my understanding that the deuterons in a standard cathode reach 
only the surface levels, whereas with the Iwamura cathode they load and 
move through all parts equally, perhaps increasing the chances that a 
reaction will occur.


>In the Mizuno case, the backside of the Pd plate acts like a very large 
>crack . . .

Iwamura, not Mizuno.


>D/Pd ratio.  This being the case and, as described above, the flux not being
>any greater than in the P-F cell, the source of energy must involve the
>layered structure, because this is the only unique feature in this
>experiment.

Other people at the conference expressed this opinion. They suggested that 
the effect is occurring at the interface of the different cathode materials.


> > in the cathode increases even more than in the electrolyte. With the
> > Iwamura technique, both heavy and light hydrogen sweep through the cathode
> > continuously, and the ratio of heavy to light hydrogen in the cathode
> > remains the same as the ratio in the electrolyte.
>
>This model is not correct.

That may be my fault. I may have misunderstood the discussion in Japanese.


>   The increased concentration of H in a Pd lattice
>is controlled by the energetics of H+ and D+ formation at the electrolyzing
>surface.  H+ is more exothermic during its absorption into the lattice
>compared to D+.

The absorption phase only? Are you sure there is not some other mechanism 
which would also retain it preferentially? I will ask Mizuno if that's what 
he was saying when we meet again in Washington next week.

- Jed

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Chuck Davis wrote:

... my big engined '68 Mustang Conv still burns petro,
and lots of it! Right now, without oil, this country collapes; simple.

I don't like the idea that we have to kill, to keep it.
We need to start using our own.

Hi All,

Let's start using methanol as our "gas pump" liquid fuel.
I think it costs about $2 per gallon to make; and we have
lots of coal and methane.  Then the owners of oil can drink it.

Jack Smith


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On 07-Nov-00, Terry Blanton, wrote:

>[...]

>We must stop all this nationalist pride and establish a one world
>government so that we can join the galactic empire!  

 Seems to me that it was this pride that brought the USSR to
 its knees, for the time being. Or, didn't you want that to happen?

 We, already, _are_ the "galactic empire", in spite ourselves.

 Liberal socialists and democrats are constantly trying to apologize,
 for that.

BTW, not since 1980, Ronald Reagan, has the voter turnout been so 
heavy, here, in Calif; just reported :)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 11:26:37 2000
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On 07-Nov-00, Taylor J. Smith, wrote:

>Chuck Davis wrote:

>... my big engined '68 Mustang Conv still burns petrol.
>and lots of it! Right now, without oil, this country collapses; simple.

>I don't like the idea that we have to kill, to keep it.
>We need to start using our own.

>Hi All,

>Let's start using methanol as our "gas pump" liquid fuel.
>I think it costs about $2 per gallon to make; and we have
>lots of coal and methane.  Then the owners of oil can drink it.

 Fine, Jack, but now they're palming off MTBE, on us, and won't
 get rid of it. Whenever the mid-east sees us swerving that 
 direction, they drop their prices that Algore endorsed.

 Let's do Anwar, and put them to sleep :)

The carabu just love those warm pipes :^)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 11:28:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:25:04 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: your vote doesn't count?
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>
>
>***{And, despite what people in the Bush and Gore camps will tell you, you
>will *not* be any more guilty of "wasting your vote" than they are. After
>all, under "one man, one vote," *all* votes are wasted. --MJ}***

You can say that for one person Mitchell, but if mass numbers of 
people adopted your strategy, then the actions of a small group of 
people who did vote would determine the election. Your comments about 
this have firmly established you as our resident contrarion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 12:38:04 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Mitchell Jones makes a mind-blowing argument, which has implications far 
beyond mere elections:

>***{There has never been a presidential election in U.S. history in which
>the popular vote was decided by one vote. (The vote on the Aaron Burr thing
>took place in the House of Representatives after the Electoral College
>deadlocked.) What that means is that if you had been alive and eligible to
>vote from the first election to the present one, you could have stayed at
>home every time, and the same guy would *always* have taken office. Bottom
>line: the system is a fraud; your vote doesn't count for a hill of beans;
>and going to the polls is quite literally a waste of time.

First, people go to polls in order to vote in all elections, national and 
local, and many local elections are decided by one vote, especially in 
small towns.

Second, it is possible the race in a key presidential district will be 
decided by one vote, and one district can decide the election. That is just 
as likely as the race being decided by 10,468 votes, or 1,977,521 votes. 
 From a statistical point of view, Jones' assertion is like saying that 
because my chances of winning the lottery are infinitesimal, nobody 
anywhere will win it. Or it is like saying that because the golf ball is 
extremely unlikely to fall on any particular blade of grass, it will not 
fall on any blade.

Third, the implications of this hypothesis are breathtaking. The system is 
a "fraud" because votes come in incremental units of 1, which is a small 
number compared to the total. It would only be worth voting if you were 
given, say, 1,000 votes in a key district. That number would have swayed 
many presidential elections, most recently in 1960 in Illinois. By this 
logic, Jones would not accept $1 interest on a bank account balance. He 
will hold out for $10,000 or nothing, because being $1 richer or poorer 
cannot measurably affect his lifestyle or his prospects for becoming a 
millionaire. He will never bother to collect change from cashiers in 
amounts less than $1, at the grocery store or gas station. The logic of 
this escapes me; money is money, a vote is a vote, and they have value in 
any increment.  It is obvious in the case of money. I doubt that Jones 
would be willing to send me all interest payments under $1 along with all 
pocket change from now on. Perhaps, as a favor to me he will vote for 
whoever I instruct him to, because his vote makes no difference anyway. 
I'll send him pocket change for a week in return.

In any case, as a practical matter here on planet earth, Jones is dead 
wrong. He would find it easy to assemble 100 or 1,000 votes for the 
candidate of his choice.  He cannot *himself* vote more than once, but 
people who work for campaigns can persuade others supporters to get out and 
vote. By showing up at headquarters and manning the phones, you can 
effectively multiply your own choice many times over, and make a huge 
difference in an election. You can have an even greater effect in the 
primaries.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 12:54:02 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:50:47 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Terry -

>Worship Xenu!

Hey, didn't Xenu die about 70^6 years ago? No problem I guess - we're 
electing dead legislators in this country now, probably with votes 
from a few dead voters too.

Hawaii's electoral votes are for Gore no matter what. All other votes 
are wasted - except to throw in with the protest numbers.

Worshiping Xenu, voting Nader.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:52:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: your vote doesn't count?
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>>
>>
>>***{And, despite what people in the Bush and Gore camps will tell you, you
>>will *not* be any more guilty of "wasting your vote" than they are. After
>>all, under "one man, one vote," *all* votes are wasted. --MJ}***
>
>You can say that for one person Mitchell, but if mass numbers of
>people adopted your strategy, then the actions of a small group of
>people who did vote would determine the election.

***{Which brings us directly to the point: in a democracy, it is only the
actions of those who are in a position to influence the actions of large
numbers of voters, that matter. That means if you own a string of
newspapers or a television network, you have influence. Your opinion is
then important. Otherwise, you are just a peon like the rest of us. And
note that even if you are in such a position, it is still a waste of time
for you to go down to the polls and cast your one miserable vote. The
action that gives you influence is not voting: it is the policy directive
that you issue to the network or string of newspapers that you control,
determining which candidates and political parties you support. Bottom
line: in a system of "one man, one vote," voting is irrational. --MJ}***

Your comments about
>this have firmly established you as our resident contrarion

***{I accept the dictates of reason, even when they conflict with social
expediency. Result: I tend to disagree, in very significant and often
surprising ways, with most people. In the case of voting, I simply noted
that when the outcome of an election is important (e.g., the presidential
election), the electorate is so vast that the outcome does not depend on
one vote. The obvious implication is that if I seek to further the cause of
freedom by voting in such an election, I have exactly the same influence on
the outcome that I would have if I flapped my arms in an attempt to fly out
of the path of a charging lion--which means: any time and effort so
invested is wasted. The implication: if I want to be free, I need to focus
my efforts on other things. What things? On technology, that's what. The
only way one man can influence the state of freedom in the world is to
discover a technology that will enable people to live out of sight and out
of mind of those who are unwilling to live and let live. That means the
only real freedom fighters in the world are the scientists and engineers
who are working to create such a technology, and if mankind is to have a
future which does not involve global slavery, collapse into a new dark age,
and, eventually, extinction as a species, it will be due to their efforts.
--MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 14:10:10 2000
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Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 00:05:13 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Scott, 

I am with you, although I have no vote. From my perspective Clinton government did good things
very noticeably for the world. Democracy in my country and all over is increased considerably. 

In many developing countries like us, in past we mostly not liked americans and american politics ruling on us. Because this politics cared only americans and their money, but nothing else.  But I think it is changed, reversed somehow in recent years. We 
saw in many occasions is not the only money and the power are the argument of the "americans" international politics. US gained the most conscience (in comparison of other counties) of globalization and tried to diminish the difference of of their citizen
s and other citizen of the world in the eye of the government and the eye of their people. This is good. If one compare US and Europe countries regarding this issue, can clearly see the difference. Europe is still selfish and not feel them self open to th
e world. US is different in my eye. 

I have sympathy to Clinton, because I feel he is not role playing. he did not lied on international issues. He did what he said. Even in the Kosovo crisis I hate my own government attitude (and also of individuals. We are also self fish) who take very pas
sive role, (indeed no role at all). Europe did the same. They played on ethnic balances, not on humanitarian issues. some countries tried to augment their gain from the clash. It is US who did stopped the crime. US gained the conscience that crime anywher
e in the world is crime. 
 
In a small period of time, world is changed (little bit :)). This progress can not made by itself without a push.

On the other issues, like making laws for regulating the Internet, is necessary I think. I there 
is no ruling, money is ruling. Money doing evil things as you know. For example, if no regulation
 had made or will be made, internet companies, ISP's, AOL, and marketing companies are going to
anything they wish. They will fraudulently guide you, abuse you, give false information and steal
your information, your privacy, software companies will install evil programs that control your
computer etc. These are indeed crimes. But without making the laws how crime be identified and
be stopped. "Laisses faire" is not a solution. G.Bush have a no closer look to the Internet I felt.
 He does not know the problems, or he is not interested. Al Gore, instead, being executive for
many years should aware of problems.

If US governments had not a push for Internet and had "reservations" (for restricting it) in his mind, it will be never grown like this. 

Finally I should say I have no idea on US politics, even historically, the parties, programs, etc.

My opinion comes is just observing things indirectly, from results.


Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Vorts,
> 
> Like it or not, the US has most of the responsibility of keeping peace and
> protecting human rights in this world.  This incredibly complex effort is
> essentially controlled by the actions of one man...our President.
> 
> Being a native of Texas, I know George W. Bush.  No, not personally but you
> run into his type all over the place around here.  They are characterized
> by a bull-headed mentality and they confront problems with a "shoot first,
> ask questions later" attitude.
> 
> Folks, we DO NOT want George W. Bush in charge of our growing international
> responsibilities.  If you're still on the fence in this election, please
> get out and vote for Al Gore today.
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Inductive Coupling of Leptons to Protons/Deuterons
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:08:51 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:44:04 -0800:
Hi Frederick,

If you think of the electron (or eventual other light leptons), as a thin
string completely encircling the nucleus, rather than as a ball of string
orbiting the nucleus, then you and Mills are pretty much on the same
wavelength. Why don't you post a message to the hydrino study group with the
*essence* of your LL concept, and ask Mills directly for his opinion?
Who knows, you may end up collaborating. :)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 14:57:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:57:55 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Terry -
> 
> >Worship Xenu!
> 
> Hey, didn't Xenu die about 70^6 years ago? No problem I guess - we're
> electing dead legislators in this country now, probably with votes
> from a few dead voters too.

Well, actually Xenu was the bad guy.  Hey, you're near the volcano where
he destroyed all those human souls!

I never heard whether the Missouri constitution would allow the governor
(elect) to appoint a replacement for the elected dead.  I guess they'll
show us  :-)
 
> Hawaii's electoral votes are for Gore no matter what. All other votes
> are wasted - except to throw in with the protest numbers.

Another list said that the vote in Little Havana, which normally leans
left, is issuing a protest vote against Reno for her elian invasion. 
Said the turnout was over 80%.
 
> Worshiping Xenu, voting Nader.

Hah! Poseiden is your god and Johnny Tsunami his sun on earth.
 
Terry

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Subject: Re: Inductive Coupling of Leptons to Protons/Deuterons
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Inductive Coupling of Leptons to Protons/Deuterons

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:44:04 -0800:
> Hi Frederick,
> 
> If you think of the electron (or eventual other light leptons), as a thin
> string completely encircling the nucleus, rather than as a ball of string
> orbiting the nucleus, then you and Mills are pretty much on the same
> wavelength. Why don't you post a message to the hydrino study group with the
> *essence* of your LL concept, and ask Mills directly for his opinion?
> Who knows, you may end up collaborating. :)

For starters, the Moment of Inertia of a "sphere" is 2/3 MR^2 as opposed to 
a "loop" or string circle where the Moment of Ineria is 1/2 MR^2 which makes
the spin angular Momentum 1/2 MR^2 * 2(pi)f  (e., omega)= Planck's Constant.
f = c/2(pi)R,    R = kq^2/Eo  Eo is the Lepton or Quark rest energy (joules).

In the case of the Muon (a Lepton) there is the high energy (53 Mev)-quark
and a electron neutrino quark and an electron antineutrino quark dividing
up the balance of the 106 Mev mass of the Muon.

Same for the quarks (high energy  electrons-positrons and neutrinos stacked up side
by side in any nucleus or the Neutron (when the neutron decays the electron and
antineutrino comes off as Beta decay leaving the Three -quark proton (P+).

> [snip]

Regards,    Frederick



 van Spaandonk
> 
> It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
> to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  7 21:58:02 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:53:36 EST
Subject: If joining, please join now, LaFonte Research Group
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Things are fixing to get very busy here as the control system for the coils 
on the Magnetic Equilibrium Motor/Generator will be coming in the near 
future. Any new members please sign up now before things get very busy.
Just send me an email (lafonte11648 aol.com) with your email address and your 
first and last name. First initials and last name are accepted.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Web Site
http://members.aol.com/vettenrr/LaFonteResearch.htm       and
http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/myhomepage/profile.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 00:41:39 2000
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:40:33 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Jed Rothewell wrote

>  By this logic, Jones would not accept $1 interest on a bank account 
>balance. He will hold out for $10,000 or nothing, because being $1 
>richer or poorer cannot measurably affect his lifestyle or his 
>prospects for becoming a millionaire.


>  I instruct him to, because his vote makes no difference anyway. 
>I'll send him pocket change for a week in return.

Brilliant come back to Mitchell's nonsense Jed!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 00:41:42 2000
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:40:33 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: the new freedom fighters
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>
>***{Which brings us directly to the point: in a democracy, it is only the
>actions of those who are in a position to influence the actions of large
>numbers of voters, that matter.

I suppose you have heard about our electing Jessie Ventura. He hit a 
resonant chord with lots of average people who voted him into office. 
I've previously mentioned my interest in sympathetic vibrational 
physics on this forum. While it is true that you have to be in a 
position of power to influence large numbers of people, it is still 
the actions of the individual that matter.


>
>Your comments about
>>this have firmly established you as our resident contrarion
>
>***{I accept the dictates of reason, even when they conflict with social
>expediency.


>  I have exactly the same influence on
>the outcome that I would have if I flapped my arms in an attempt to fly out
>of the path of a charging lion--which means: any time and effort so
>invested is wasted. The implication: if I want to be free, I need to focus
>my efforts on other things. What things? On technology, that's what. The
>only way one man can influence the state of freedom in the world is to
>discover a technology that will enable people to live out of sight and out
>of mind of those who are unwilling to live and let live. That means the
>
Given you misguided paradigm of the Invisible Government, Mitchell, 
your faith in technology is understandable.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 01:58:19 2000
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:57:26 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Terry -

At 5:57 PM -0800 11/7/00, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Well, actually Xenu was the bad guy.  Hey, you're near the volcano where
>he destroyed all those human souls!

But we weren't really destroyed, we were just melted together and 
left a bit confused. It's pretty here now, the surf is good, and that 
was long ago. Plus I can't remember that far back, and no one else on 
this list knows what the **** we're talking about! <g>

Anyway, I *did* vote for Ralph as a member in good standing of the 
demographic officially known as - 'the lunatic fringe'. Say luvee.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 04:29:47 2000
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Faulty reasoning.

Of course $1 can do some good, where 1 vote alone might but never has.
(one dollar can make a small difference, no matter how small, one vote
or
1 million votes are useless unless it effects who wins, Bush lost CA and
NY by more that 1 million votes)

Though the difference between Bush and Gore in florida is less than a
thousand votes calling for a re-count.

One single vote might make a difference yet.

Still Jones is basically right, technically. Though as there are many
such
single votes it only holds true if one single vote is under
consideration,
not many people asking does my vote count, because the answer is yes!
It's no longer one vote!

Also as the early showing of the poles can effect the votes in the other
end of america then a number of votes can make a difference even if the
votes don't tip the balance in that state the psychological effect could
be powerful.

In short if you believe you are up on the game of politics, and believe
you can make a well informed decision you should vote.

If you don't have a clue who is best then it is best not to vote, and
let
better informed people make the decision.

Encouraging people to vote when they don't care or have a clue is
stupid.
Maybe Jones was encouraging the ignorant not to vote ;)

Anyway if Bush does win, well I'm glad I'm not an american.


thomas malloy wrote:

> Jed Rothewell wrote
>
> >  By this logic, Jones would not accept $1 interest on a bank account
> >balance. He will hold out for $10,000 or nothing, because being $1
> >richer or poorer cannot measurably affect his lifestyle or his
> >prospects for becoming a millionaire.
>
> >  I instruct him to, because his vote makes no difference anyway.
> >I'll send him pocket change for a week in return.
>
> Brilliant come back to Mitchell's nonsense Jed!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:06:45 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Notes on Iwamura experiment
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Ed Storms meant to post this on Vortex but he sent it to me directly instead.


Jed Rothwell wrote:

 > Edmund Storms wrote:
 >
 > >All samples experience a flux because almost all of the deuterium made
 > >available to an electrolyzing surface enters the Pd lattice and 
diffuses to
 > >internal cracks where it is released as D2. Consequently, no matter how 
the
 > >experiment is designed, a flux of D+ will exist within the Pd 
structure. As
 > >long as the current is constant, the amount of diffusion is constant and
 > >independent of electrode design. In McKubre's case, he changed the 
current,
 > >thereby changed the amount of diffusing flux. His equations are based 
on this
 > >additional flux, not on the steady background flux. . . .
 >
 > What about the issue of the moving deuterons reaching all parts of the
 > cathode? Is my understanding that the deuterons in a standard cathode reach
 > only the surface levels, whereas with the Iwamura cathode they load and
 > move through all parts equally, perhaps increasing the chances that a
 > reaction will occur.

The D+ moves from the surface to the nearest region where it can convert to 
D2 and leave the cathode. This diffusion flux produces a composition 
gradient between the surface and the region from which the D+ is lost. In 
the Iwamura set up, the D+ indeed moves through a larger number of Pd 
atoms. However, because of the composition gradient, most of the Pd atoms 
are located within a region of relatively low D concentration. So, the 
question is, "What is more important, the D/Pd ratio or the flux"? All of 
the studies done so far suggest that the D/Pd ratio is more important. The 
Iwamura configuration would have about the same flux as P-F, but the D+ 
would be passing through a smaller region of high composition. This would 
appear to be the wrong combination for best results.


 > >In the Mizuno case, the backside of the Pd plate acts like a very large
 > >crack . . .
 >
 > Iwamura, not Mizuno.
 >
 > >D/Pd ratio. This being the case and, as described above, the flux not 
being
 > >any greater than in the P-F cell, the source of energy must involve the
 > >layered structure, because this is the only unique feature in this
 > >experiment.
 >
 > Other people at the conference expressed this opinion. They suggested that
 > the effect is occurring at the interface of the different cathode materials.

Or it could be occurring within the mixed alloy formed at the interface 
rather  than at the interface itself. At this time, we do no know what the 
NAS looks like or what arrangement of atoms is required. Miley and others 
like to focus on the interface as if a sharp break in electronic structure 
exists. Like all physicists, they picture an ideal structure when, in fact, 
there is a gradual
change from one structure to the other, as seen from an atom's point of 
view. This mixing occurs because the D+ flux drags atoms along, hence 
enhances diffusion in much the same way as does a higher temperature. I 
suggest that a sharp interface does not exist under these conditions. The 
nature of the resulting alloy must be examined to understand the process.

 >
 >
 > > > in the cathode increases even more than in the electrolyte. With the
 > > > Iwamura technique, both heavy and light hydrogen sweep through the 
cathode
 > > > continuously, and the ratio of heavy to light hydrogen in the cathode
 > > > remains the same as the ratio in the electrolyte.
 > >
 > >This model is not correct.
 >
 > That may be my fault. I may have misunderstood the discussion in Japanese.
 >
 > > The increased concentration of H in a Pd lattice
 > >is controlled by the energetics of H+ and D+ formation at the 
electrolyzing
 > >surface. H+ is more exothermic during its absorption into the lattice
 > >compared to D+.
 >
 > The absorption phase only? Are you sure there is not some other mechanism
 > which would also retain it preferentially? I will ask Mizuno if that's what
 > he was saying when we meet again in Washington next week.

The situation at the cathode surface is complex and many kinds of reactions 
can be imagined. We know only that H is preferentially absorbed into Pd and 
that more energy is released by this process compared to D. Unless, they 
can show otherwise, I suggest the best assumption is to conclude that their 
electrode contains the same H/D ratio as would a P-F electrode under the 
same conditions.

Ed

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John Berry wrote:

>Though the difference between Bush and Gore in florida is less than a
>thousand votes calling for a re-count.
>
>One single vote might make a difference yet.
>
>Still Jones is basically right, technically.

No, technically he is wrong. The chances that a candidate will win by 1 
vote in a given race are exactly as good as the chances that he will win by 
1,000, or by 4,867.  There is nothing special about the number 1 that makes 
it particularly unlikely to occur. It is true that no presidential election 
has ever been decided by 1 vote, but that has no more significance than the 
fact that no presidential election has ever been decided by 10,000,783 
votes. For that matter, the election might be a dead heat in Florida, with 
neither side winning, which will put the election in the House of 
Representatives I suppose.

In any case, the results from Florida are stunning proof that one vote 
matters, and activists matter. One or two extra campaign workers on either 
side could have brought in a few thousand votes and decided the election. 
Jones' theory that money decides elections is false. If that were so, the 
Republicans would have won most races in the last 60 years, since they 
usually spend more than Democrats.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:53:02 2000
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November 8, 2,000

Vortex,

I have received a reassuring response.

Please disregard the "Dr." title. It seems when correspondence occurs
among 'titled' people, with all respect to the process and person,
somehow they assume you have the same potential 'debility'. :) 
My continuing experiences in life does not have titles.

-AK-

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Comment about the Japan Cold Fusion Research Society
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:08:05 +0900
From: "Akito Takahashi" <akito nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
To: <aki ix.netcom.com>
CC: "Masayuki Ohta" <mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
References: <002401c0487b$cd004c60$259b0185 nucl.eng.osakau.ac.jp>

Dear Dr. Kawasaki:
   Thank you for your asistance to JCF Society. As you understand, JCF
has
no ristrictions due to gender, race, nationality, carrier and age to be
its
member (get menbership). However we require one's activity or
good-minded
interest in CF-researches, with entrance fee and annual fee, to give him
membership.
    JCF has been just born in March 1999, and is still a "baby" society
which will hopefully be grown up by the continuing activity and effort
by
members and the kind support from outside. We have currently about 50
members (including 2 in abroad). You are also welcome to join in JCF any
time you like.
    Thank you for pointing out the case of Dr. Y. Zhang. Her name is not
on
the list of founders, but Arata is a representative of her group. She is
receiving every information of JCF, and she can have "formal" menbership
any
time by sending registration form. So we are waiting for it.  By the way
there are many of such people who are on the list of founders but did
not
register yet. We have enough time to wait for.
      Thank you again for your kindness.
Sincerely,


Akito Takahashi
Directer-in-Chief, JCF
Professor
Department of Nuclear Engineering,
Graduate School of Engineering,
Osaka University

Yamadaoka 2-1, Suita, Osaka, 565-0871 Japan

Fax: 81-6-6879-7889
Tel: 81-6-6879-7890

Email: akito nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp

----- Original Message -----
From: Masayuki Ohta <mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
To: Akito Takahashi <akito nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:30 PM
Subject: Fw: Comment about the Japan Cold Fusion Research Society


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> '-�MZ� : Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
> ^��� : Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>;
<mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
> '-�M"�Zz : 2000"N11OZ7"� 12:37
> O�-� : Comment about the Japan Cold Fusion Research Society
>
>
> > November 5, 2,000
> >
> > Vortex,
> >
> > This 'unofficial' JCF-Research Society was formed in 1999. It has held
> > its second Conference to which Jed Rothwell has attended. I do not know
> > what the membership list consists of.  But it is supposedly an open
> > ended membership Society of multi-disciplinary fields, .
> > There is a list of Founders and Directors. Among the Founders I see
> > names of individuals active in this field, like Mizuno, Ohmori,
> > Takahashi, Kozima, Yamaguchi, Notoys, and Arata to name a few names
> > brought out on Vortex.
> > However, what bothers me greatly of this Society's Founders List is the
> > missing name of Zhang. I believe she is fully qualified to be included
> > in the Founder's List along with Arata, seeing that she is co-author to
> > many papers published by Arata(and Zhang) on Cold Fusion. Certainly she
> > is active in the laboratory. At least the Society has included Reiko
> > Notoya so there is no hang-ups on gender. Perhaps the named Directors
> > can explain this lapse.
> >
> > -AK- .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:04:51 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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>Mitchell Jones makes a mind-blowing argument, which has implications far
>beyond mere elections:
>
>>***{There has never been a presidential election in U.S. history in which
>>the popular vote was decided by one vote. (The vote on the Aaron Burr thing
>>took place in the House of Representatives after the Electoral College
>>deadlocked.) What that means is that if you had been alive and eligible to
>>vote from the first election to the present one, you could have stayed at
>>home every time, and the same guy would *always* have taken office. Bottom
>>line: the system is a fraud; your vote doesn't count for a hill of beans;
>>and going to the polls is quite literally a waste of time.
>
>First, people go to polls in order to vote in all elections, national and
>local, and many local elections are decided by one vote, especially in
>small towns.

***{Under ordinary circumstances, the probability that a given voter will
cast the deciding vote on an issue of importance is virtually zero. That is
a fact. You can dress it up in fancy words, but it will stubbornly remain
what it is, whether you like it or not. --MJ}***

>
>Second, it is possible the race in a key presidential district will be
>decided by one vote, and one district can decide the election.

***{And the probability that you will find yourself in a position to cast
that vote is essentially zero. If you obediently troop down to the polls
every four years with that possibility in mind, then to be consistent you
would have to wear a steel helmet at all times to protect yourself against
meteors. But, of course, that isn't the reason you vote: you vote because
it is socially expedient to do so, and you make the hopeless attempt to
defend voting because that is socially expedient as well. --MJ}***

That is just
>as likely as the race being decided by 10,468 votes, or 1,977,521 votes.

***{Yep, but it is *enormously* less likely than that the final margin of
victory will be more than one vote. And since, in the latter case, you
might as well stay home, it follows that in a democracy--i.e., "one man,
one vote"--voting is inherently irrational.  --MJ}***

> From a statistical point of view, Jones' assertion is like saying that
>because my chances of winning the lottery are infinitesimal, nobody
>anywhere will win it. Or it is like saying that because the golf ball is
>extremely unlikely to fall on any particular blade of grass, it will not
>fall on any blade.

***{Wrong, and ridiculous. Since the only case in which your vote will
matter is the case where it is the deciding vote, the probability that it
will matter is the probability that the election will be decided by one
vote. In the lottery example, it is like saying that since there are
hundreds of millions of potential winning numbers in a typical lottery, the
probability of your number coming up is infinitesimal. In the golf example,
it is like saying that since the area of the hole is a tiny, tiny fraction
of the total area in which your drive can come to rest, the probability
that you will get a hole-in-one is infinitesimal.

Bottom line: voting is a waste of time because in virtually all cases the
probability is vanishingly small that you will cast the deciding vote in
any issue of importance. The effect of that low probability is that you
would have to obediently troop down to the polls for hundreds of years, in
the typical case, before a situation would arise where the outcome would be
significantly different than it would have been if you had always stayed at
home. As I said in a post to Thomas Malloy, voting is about as effective in
restraining the depredations of government as flapping one's arms would be
in enabling one to escape from a charging lion. As such, voting is a
thoroughgoing waste of time, and, worse, a distraction from activities that
have the potential to actually improve the lot of mankind.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Third, the implications of this hypothesis are breathtaking. The system is
>a "fraud" because votes come in incremental units of 1, which is a small
>number compared to the total. It would only be worth voting if you were
>given, say, 1,000 votes in a key district.

***{In a rational society, people would vote with their tax receipts. That
means those who paid the most in taxes would cast the most votes and,
unlike their lot in the present parasitic system, would be in a position to
defend themselves at the polls against those who would rob, murder, or
enslave them. --MJ}***

That number would have swayed
>many presidential elections, most recently in 1960 in Illinois.

***{Actually, the vote in Illinois in 1960 was controlled by the Daley
machine in Chicago, where the ballot box stuffing operation was capable of
throwing the state to the Democratic candidate unless it was a literal
landslide for the Republican candidate in the rest of the state. Given that
reality, even 1000 votes was meaningless. (This is also true today, by the
way: there are doubtlessly a number of states in yesterday's race that were
stolen in precisely this way, by one party or the other. That is simply the
way the system works. The notion that the votes of individuals are
important is, as I have said, a delusion.) --MJ}***

 By this
>logic, Jones would not accept $1 interest on a bank account balance. He
>will hold out for $10,000 or nothing, because being $1 richer or poorer
>cannot measurably affect his lifestyle or his prospects for becoming a
>millionaire. He will never bother to collect change from cashiers in
>amounts less than $1, at the grocery store or gas station. The logic of
>this escapes me; money is money, a vote is a vote, and they have value in
>any increment.  It is obvious in the case of money. I doubt that Jones
>would be willing to send me all interest payments under $1 along with all
>pocket change from now on. Perhaps, as a favor to me he will vote for
>whoever I instruct him to, because his vote makes no difference anyway.
>I'll send him pocket change for a week in return.

***{Obviously I have no qualms about accepting interest payments. You
deposit the money once, and receive a continuous income stream therefrom,
without the requirement of additional effort. Thus the entire stream of
payments, properly, count as returns on the effort of making the deposit.
In the case of voting, on the other hand, the situation is reversed: you
have to make thousands of "deposits," over a period of hundreds of years,
in hopes that *someday* you may receive a return. --MJ}***

>
>In any case, as a practical matter here on planet earth, Jones is dead
>wrong. He would find it easy to assemble 100 or 1,000 votes for the
>candidate of his choice. He cannot *himself* vote more than once, but
>people who work for campaigns can persuade others supporters to get out and
>vote. By showing up at headquarters and manning the phones, you can
>effectively multiply your own choice many times over, and make a huge
>difference in an election. You can have an even greater effect in the
>primaries.

***{While I don't agree that unpaid servitude as a campaign volunteer
constitutes a reasonable attempt to make a difference, the main point in
the present context is that it is *irrelevant*. The issue we are discussing
is whether, under normal circumstances, *voting* constitutes a reasonable
attempt to make a difference. You say it does, and I say it doesn't.
Whether it is or is not reasonable to work as a campaign volunteer is
utterly beside that point, because even if it were reasonable to work one's
tail off for a candidate, I would still contend that, having done so, it
would a waste of time to vote for him on election day. Similarly, the fact
that it may be worthwhile for the head of CBS to ensure that his network
gives preferential treatment to the candidate that he wants to see elected
does *not* mean that, having done that, he should go to the polls and vote
for him on election day. Bottom line: the fact that reasonable and
effective actions exist which some individuals can and should take to
influence an election, does not mean that *voting* is such an action, and I
contend that, in the vast majority of circumstances, it is not. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 12:06:51 2000
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I did not vote, because I did not care particularly which candidate won, 
hewever had I cared, I would have voted because if everybody followed 
Mitch's advice and didn't vote for their candidate, then my candidate with 
my one vote would win by default.  Someone has to vote or the system 
collapses.

Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 12:29:26 2000
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can anyone give me a site for the patent itself?  I can't tell what exactly 
his device is doing from his "highly informative" webpage.

Thanx
Merlyn
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 13:48:14 2000
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Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:46:44 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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I mentioned last week that Mizuno ordered a Yokogawa PZ4000 power analyzer, 
for a large sum of money. It arrived, he hooked it up to the experiment, 
and he was "somewhat relieved" to find that it measured virtually the same 
level of power as his other meters, to within a fraction of a percent. It 
measures power in much finer detail that any previous instruments he has 
worked with. He thinks this will give him valuable information about the 
glow discharge effect. I think he said it has "5 millisecond resolution." 
I'm not sure what that means. Anyway, he has run several times already and 
he will bring some of the data to Washington next week. I suggested that he 
bring it over to Ohmori's experiment and he agreed that would be a good idea.

There's something else I discussed with him, and mentioned in passing here. 
Perhaps there are readers on this forum, or people you know, who have 
access to high-resolution mass spectrometers. Mizuno would be willing to 
provide used cathodes which you can investigate to look for anomalous 
isotopic ratios. People who have the mass spec equipment on hand might find 
this easier than an independent replication of the experiment. You can 
analyze the isotopes in one day, whereas it takes weeks to learn to do the 
experiment. Once you see the isotopes, you might feel motivated to learn 
how to do the experiment. He would be happy to send cathodes to people who 
agree to send him copies of the analysis.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 14:15:46 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pinning Down the Radius of Leptons and Quarks (String Circles)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:11:14 -0800
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For a String Circle Particle with the Mass, M distributed around
the Wave Circle, the Moment of Inertia is 1/2 MR^2.

The Spin Angular Momentum is 1/2MR^2*2(Pi)f = 1/2 hbar,
and since f = c/2(pi)R or c/Lambda, solving for the Electron R:

R = h/2(Pi)M*c = 3.86E-13 meters for the Electron, which is
the "Classical Radius", 2.81E-15/Alpha,  Alpha is the
Fine Structure Constant 0.00729729.

>From this the Frequency of the Electron, f = c/2.427E-12 
(2.427E-12 is the Compton Wavelength) thus the frequency of
the Electron is 1.236E20 Hz.
The Loop Current is q*f = 19.78 Amperes.

Thus a Quark String Circle with a Mass ~ 624 times the mass of the
Electron has a frequency of ~ 624*1.236E20 = ~ 7.7E22 Hz
and a Radius of  ~ 6.2E-16 meters or ~ 0.62 Fermi (i.e.., 1/2 the diameter
of the nucleus made up of stacked length-only String Circles).

It can be shown that the Electron is Time-Dilated by a factor of 2.0E21
due to Accelerated Frame Effects thus has an outward Gravitational
Frequency of ~ 0.062 Hz.

The Quark String Circles are Time-Dilated by a factor of ~ 8.7E16 and thus
have an outward Gravitational Frequency of ~ 0.9 MegaHz.

The Current (q*f) of the stacked String Circles add up like the turns
of a Solenoid with the Negative Quarks rotating/spin CCW and the Positive
Quarks rotating/spin CW thus creating the Magneto-Gravitational Field.

Regards,    Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 17:07:56 2000
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Yes, true, but slightly misleading.

Here is the point, 1,000,000 votes for the underdog  might or might not change
the results of an election, 500 votes might or might not change the results, 1
vote might or might not.

But the probability that 1,000,000 votes will change the result is much greater
than the probability that 500 or 1 will.
Indeed it becomes very unlikely that it will ever make a difference.
However it's so tight in florida...

As for money, well it might not decide who wins, but it does help.
Brilliant strategy and a vision for the future didn't get bush these results!



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
>
> >Though the difference between Bush and Gore in florida is less than a
> >thousand votes calling for a re-count.
> >
> >One single vote might make a difference yet.
> >
> >Still Jones is basically right, technically.
>
> No, technically he is wrong. The chances that a candidate will win by 1
> vote in a given race are exactly as good as the chances that he will win by
> 1,000, or by 4,867.  There is nothing special about the number 1 that makes
> it particularly unlikely to occur.

You have the wrong end of the argument, it's not how likely someone is to win
or lose by one vote as opposed to winning or losing by any other number, but
how likely 1 vote is to change the results compared to any other number of
deciding votes.




> It is true that no presidential election
> has ever been decided by 1 vote, but that has no more significance than the
> fact that no presidential election has ever been decided by 10,000,783
> votes. For that matter, the election might be a dead heat in Florida, with
> neither side winning, which will put the election in the House of
> Representatives I suppose.
>
> In any case, the results from Florida are stunning proof that one vote
> matters, and activists matter. One or two extra campaign workers on either
> side could have brought in a few thousand votes and decided the election.
> Jones' theory that money decides elections is false. If that were so, the
> Republicans would have won most races in the last 60 years, since they
> usually spend more than Democrats.
>
> - Jed

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Your statements are true for one single individual, not many such individuals.

And in the end why should someone have that great a chance of deciding
government, as you have said before, the average person is borderline brain
damaged.

As there are many individual votes, each one might make an infinitesimal effect,
but over all makes a strong current of votes.
It is arrogant to separate yourself from all the others, it is only true that
your vote is wasted in the strict sense if you vote for a 3rd party.
Because the support of "all those other individuals" isn't there in nearly large
enough numbers.

Voting for a 3rd party is useless except for the hope that the results this time
will encourage better results next time. And to generally try and screw the
system.

In short unless you really are alone in your choice for pres. then you should not
consider your vote to be useless.

Now I suggest we stop this thread, because we all know the situation anyway. The
facts of such a simple system are below us.
What we are really talking about is how we have different ways of evaluating
things.

Nothing that anyone has said has opened anyones eyes to any technical fact. We
are just arguing how we feel about politics.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Mitchell Jones makes a mind-blowing argument, which has implications far
> >beyond mere elections:
> >
> >>***{There has never been a presidential election in U.S. history in which
> >>the popular vote was decided by one vote. (The vote on the Aaron Burr thing
> >>took place in the House of Representatives after the Electoral College
> >>deadlocked.) What that means is that if you had been alive and eligible to
> >>vote from the first election to the present one, you could have stayed at
> >>home every time, and the same guy would *always* have taken office. Bottom
> >>line: the system is a fraud; your vote doesn't count for a hill of beans;
> >>and going to the polls is quite literally a waste of time.
> >
> >First, people go to polls in order to vote in all elections, national and
> >local, and many local elections are decided by one vote, especially in
> >small towns.
>
> ***{Under ordinary circumstances, the probability that a given voter will
> cast the deciding vote on an issue of importance is virtually zero. That is
> a fact. You can dress it up in fancy words, but it will stubbornly remain
> what it is, whether you like it or not. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >Second, it is possible the race in a key presidential district will be
> >decided by one vote, and one district can decide the election.
>
> ***{And the probability that you will find yourself in a position to cast
> that vote is essentially zero. If you obediently troop down to the polls
> every four years with that possibility in mind, then to be consistent you
> would have to wear a steel helmet at all times to protect yourself against
> meteors. But, of course, that isn't the reason you vote: you vote because
> it is socially expedient to do so, and you make the hopeless attempt to
> defend voting because that is socially expedient as well. --MJ}***
>
> That is just
> >as likely as the race being decided by 10,468 votes, or 1,977,521 votes.
>
> ***{Yep, but it is *enormously* less likely than that the final margin of
> victory will be more than one vote. And since, in the latter case, you
> might as well stay home, it follows that in a democracy--i.e., "one man,
> one vote"--voting is inherently irrational.  --MJ}***
>
> > From a statistical point of view, Jones' assertion is like saying that
> >because my chances of winning the lottery are infinitesimal, nobody
> >anywhere will win it. Or it is like saying that because the golf ball is
> >extremely unlikely to fall on any particular blade of grass, it will not
> >fall on any blade.
>
> ***{Wrong, and ridiculous. Since the only case in which your vote will
> matter is the case where it is the deciding vote, the probability that it
> will matter is the probability that the election will be decided by one
> vote. In the lottery example, it is like saying that since there are
> hundreds of millions of potential winning numbers in a typical lottery, the
> probability of your number coming up is infinitesimal. In the golf example,
> it is like saying that since the area of the hole is a tiny, tiny fraction
> of the total area in which your drive can come to rest, the probability
> that you will get a hole-in-one is infinitesimal.
>
> Bottom line: voting is a waste of time because in virtually all cases the
> probability is vanishingly small that you will cast the deciding vote in
> any issue of importance. The effect of that low probability is that you
> would have to obediently troop down to the polls for hundreds of years, in
> the typical case, before a situation would arise where the outcome would be
> significantly different than it would have been if you had always stayed at
> home. As I said in a post to Thomas Malloy, voting is about as effective in
> restraining the depredations of government as flapping one's arms would be
> in enabling one to escape from a charging lion. As such, voting is a
> thoroughgoing waste of time, and, worse, a distraction from activities that
> have the potential to actually improve the lot of mankind.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >Third, the implications of this hypothesis are breathtaking. The system is
> >a "fraud" because votes come in incremental units of 1, which is a small
> >number compared to the total. It would only be worth voting if you were
> >given, say, 1,000 votes in a key district.
>
> ***{In a rational society, people would vote with their tax receipts. That
> means those who paid the most in taxes would cast the most votes and,
> unlike their lot in the present parasitic system, would be in a position to
> defend themselves at the polls against those who would rob, murder, or
> enslave them. --MJ}***
>
> That number would have swayed
> >many presidential elections, most recently in 1960 in Illinois.
>
> ***{Actually, the vote in Illinois in 1960 was controlled by the Daley
> machine in Chicago, where the ballot box stuffing operation was capable of
> throwing the state to the Democratic candidate unless it was a literal
> landslide for the Republican candidate in the rest of the state. Given that
> reality, even 1000 votes was meaningless. (This is also true today, by the
> way: there are doubtlessly a number of states in yesterday's race that were
> stolen in precisely this way, by one party or the other. That is simply the
> way the system works. The notion that the votes of individuals are
> important is, as I have said, a delusion.) --MJ}***
>
>  By this
> >logic, Jones would not accept $1 interest on a bank account balance. He
> >will hold out for $10,000 or nothing, because being $1 richer or poorer
> >cannot measurably affect his lifestyle or his prospects for becoming a
> >millionaire. He will never bother to collect change from cashiers in
> >amounts less than $1, at the grocery store or gas station. The logic of
> >this escapes me; money is money, a vote is a vote, and they have value in
> >any increment.  It is obvious in the case of money. I doubt that Jones
> >would be willing to send me all interest payments under $1 along with all
> >pocket change from now on. Perhaps, as a favor to me he will vote for
> >whoever I instruct him to, because his vote makes no difference anyway.
> >I'll send him pocket change for a week in return.
>
> ***{Obviously I have no qualms about accepting interest payments. You
> deposit the money once, and receive a continuous income stream therefrom,
> without the requirement of additional effort. Thus the entire stream of
> payments, properly, count as returns on the effort of making the deposit.
> In the case of voting, on the other hand, the situation is reversed: you
> have to make thousands of "deposits," over a period of hundreds of years,
> in hopes that *someday* you may receive a return. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >In any case, as a practical matter here on planet earth, Jones is dead
> >wrong. He would find it easy to assemble 100 or 1,000 votes for the
> >candidate of his choice. He cannot *himself* vote more than once, but
> >people who work for campaigns can persuade others supporters to get out and
> >vote. By showing up at headquarters and manning the phones, you can
> >effectively multiply your own choice many times over, and make a huge
> >difference in an election. You can have an even greater effect in the
> >primaries.
>
> ***{While I don't agree that unpaid servitude as a campaign volunteer
> constitutes a reasonable attempt to make a difference, the main point in
> the present context is that it is *irrelevant*. The issue we are discussing
> is whether, under normal circumstances, *voting* constitutes a reasonable
> attempt to make a difference. You say it does, and I say it doesn't.
> Whether it is or is not reasonable to work as a campaign volunteer is
> utterly beside that point, because even if it were reasonable to work one's
> tail off for a candidate, I would still contend that, having done so, it
> would a waste of time to vote for him on election day. Similarly, the fact
> that it may be worthwhile for the head of CBS to ensure that his network
> gives preferential treatment to the candidate that he wants to see elected
> does *not* mean that, having done that, he should go to the polls and vote
> for him on election day. Bottom line: the fact that reasonable and
> effective actions exist which some individuals can and should take to
> influence an election, does not mean that *voting* is such an action, and I
> contend that, in the vast majority of circumstances, it is not. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 21:07:24 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:05:17 EST
Subject: LaFonte Group welcomes Jean-Louis Naudin 
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, tlamb3@mindspring.com
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The LaFonte Research Group is pleased to announce that Jean-Louis Naudin has 
joined it's membership. Thank you Jean-Louis, we value your membership.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  8 21:24:16 2000
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:22:17 -0600
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Is "Mr. Market" a Republican?
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For those who are interested in futures trading, some observations. On
election day, I alternated back and forth between watching the price
fluctuations of the December NASDAQ-100 futures contract and watching the
election coverage on television. The correlations seemed to be as follows:

(1) Before the polls closed, when it looked like Bush was a sure winner,
the NASDAQ-100  futures were strong.

(2) When Florida was called for Gore, the futures sold off heavily.

(3) When the call for Gore was rescinded, the futures rallied.

(4) When Florida was called for Bush, they became even stronger, peaking
after Gore's concession call to Bush.

(5) When Gore called Bush a second time and retracted his concession, the
futures began selling off heavily again, and when the networks placed
Florida back in the undecided column, the futures got even weaker.

(6) The next morning, when the claim surfaced that Gore had "won the
popular vote" (which is not supported by the facts), and it became apparent
that there were substantial irregularities in the Florida count, the
NASDAQ-100 continued to sell off.

(7) As more and more information continued to come out during the day,
rendering it more and more plausible that Gore might actually win the
Presidency, the selloff continued to accelerate, turning into a near-rout
by the close, which had the NASDAQ futures down more than 250 points for
the day.

The action described above suggests to me that "Mr. Market" doesn't like
Gore. Since the December futures closed at 3061, just above "make-or-break"
support at 3000, another day like today could tip this bubble market over
the edge, and precipitate the long-overdue crash. If that were to happen,
the symmetry, from a technical perspective, would be stunning: the current
steeply upward sloping trading channel began immediately after the
Republican "contract-with-America" congressional victories in November of
1994; and here, at least potentially, we see that trend ending immediately
after a Democratic Presidential victory in November of 2000.

We live in fascinating times.

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 00:36:23 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Adam Cox <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System patent NUMBER ?????
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	What is the patent number? If you please.

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Adam Cox wrote:

> can anyone give me a site for the patent itself?  I can't tell what exactly 
> his device is doing from his "highly informative" webpage.
> 
> Thanx
> Merlyn
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 02:04:08 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pinning Down the Radius of Leptons and Quarks (String Circles)
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Hi Robin,

It's amazing how far one goes to find something so fundamental. :-)

The Compton Wavelength (h/mc) equals the Diameter of the String-WaveCircle
for Leptons or Quarks:

1, h/mc= 2(pi)R  = Diameter

2, R = hbar*c/Energy

3, Frequency, f = c/diameter = E/h

For a 312 Mev Quark/String-Wave Circle, f = ~ 7.6E22  Hz
Loop Current, I = q*f ~ = 19.78 amperes

For an Electron, f = 1.236E20 Hz
Loop Current, I = q*f ~ = 12,080 Amperes

I'll leave the Mechanics of the String-Wave Circles up to the more adventurous. :-)

Regards,   Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 05:36:24 2000
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		 <4.3.2.7.0.20001107070200.03650210 earthtech.org> <v04011701b62e1eae78d5@[207.8.127.66]> <3A09FCDA.F292B040@ihug.co.nz>
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John Berry wrote:

It is arrogant to separate yourself from all the others,

Hi John,

"Politics" is the process by which a group of humans decides
who gets what -- who gets to be lord and who gets to be serf.

It is impossible to separate oneself from the decisions of the
group except by flight to an uninhabited place.  Joining another
group merely replaces the frying pan with the fire.

Given the sad fact that the only certainties are death and taxes,
I personally prefer that political decisions be made with votes,
not with swords.  (Although I suppose if one is desparate enough
theft, fraud, murder, etc. are always available for individual
action.)

The group may vote to exterminate some of its members:  Socrates
died by a vote of the people.  On the other hand, the group may 
vote (perhaps motivated by the probability that prospective
victims  will violently resist) to limit the abiltiy of the
group to regulate some of the behaviors of its members, 
i. e., a "bill of rights".

Even in anarchy there is politics because people are going to
try to get what they want, one way or the other.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 06:29:35 2000
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On Wednesday, November 8, 2000, at 01:27 PM, Adam Cox wrote:

> can anyone give me a site for the patent itself?  I can't tell what exactly  
> his device is doing from his "highly informative" webpage. 
>  

The patent number is 4,238,968 and it's available at the USPO site. This long URL will get you there:

http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='4,238,968'.WKU.&OS=PN/4,238,968&RS=PN/4,238,968

Cook's first book, "The Death of Rocketry", has a very good explanation of how his inertial drive works.

Alex Karahalios

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 06:56:56 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 08:54:17 -0600
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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At 04:46 PM 11/8/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I mentioned last week that Mizuno ordered a Yokogawa PZ4000 power 
>analyzer, for a large sum of money. It arrived, he hooked it up to the 
>experiment, and he was "somewhat relieved" to find that it measured 
>virtually the same level of power as his other meters, to within a 
>fraction of a percent. It measures power in much finer detail that any 
>previous instruments he has worked with. He thinks this will give him 
>valuable information about the glow discharge effect. I think he said it 
>has "5 millisecond resolution." I'm not sure what that means. Anyway, he 
>has run several times already and he will bring some of the data to 
>Washington next week.

With little question remaining that M's power measurements are in error, I 
would like to focus on his output heat measurements for a while.  Despite 
my considerable efforts at communication with M, the details of his 
water-flow calorimetry remain largely unknown to me.

1. One overarching issue is this:  how close does his water-flow 
calorimetry come to the ideal of Pout = dT*F*C where dT is the actual 
observed delta-T, F is the flow rate in gm/sec and C is the specific heat 
of water (1 cal/gm*K)?  In other words, does he recover nearly all of the 
heat?  The answer to this may be contained within material already in my 
possession but I'd like to hear what the very latest situation is.

2.  I would like to see a reasonably accurate drawing of his flow 
calorimetry setup (not the schematic he has presented in the past), with 
special attention to the construction of the water temperature measuring 
stations (i.e. probes), the geometry of the cell and heat-exchange, and the 
arrangement of insulation around the whole system.

3.  What is the typical excess heat that M sees these days?  In the past, 
we heard values ranging up into hundreds of percent but it seems to me that 
the graphs M presents in his papers show quite a bit less that that.  Is 
his "typical" excess heat shrinking as his measurement techniques improve?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 08:28:13 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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Scott Little wrote:

         With little question remaining that M's power measurements are
         in error, I would like to focus on his output heat measurements
         for a while.  Despite my considerable efforts at communication
         with M, the details of his water-flow calorimetry remain largely
         unknown to me. . . .

Scott, you should write to him today and ask him to take some photographs 
of the current setup, which is new. He will be here next week. Are you 
attending the conference in Washington? I was unable to bring a camera to 
Japan last month and I do not think he has any satisfactory photos of the 
latest equipment.

         1. One overarching issue is this  how close does his water-flow
         calorimetry come to the ideal of Pout = dT*F*C where dT is the
         actual observed delta-T, F is the flow rate in gm/sec and C is
         the specific heat of water (1 cal/gm*K)?  In other words, does
         he recover nearly all of the heat?

He is not close at all. I think his cells typically recover 90 percent of 
the heat. He determines this carefully, with joule heater calibrations and 
cooling curves. He always measures the electrolyte temperature. This 
experiment cannot be performed with high heat recovery. The cell has to be 
transparent so that he can watch the plasma form. The shape and  color of 
the plasma is very important.

I do not understand why you think this is overarching issue. As long as the 
recovery rate is consistent and measured accurately, what difference does 
it make whether it is 90 percent or 98 percent?

         2.  I would like to see a reasonably accurate drawing of his
         flow calorimetry setup (not the schematic he has presented in
         the past), with special attention to the construction of the
         water temperature measuring stations (i.e. probes), the geometry
         of the cell and heat-exchange, and the arrangement of insulation
         around the whole system.

He now uses six probes. They cost $300 apiece, and come with individual 
testing and certification, and I happen to have copies of the certification 
sheets here. The instruments are described as "platinum resistance 
thermometers" (hakkin sokuon teikoutai) but I think they would be called 
thermocouples in English. There are certified to within 0.01 deg C, but the 
calibration numbers shown here, taken in tests at 0 deg C and 100 deg C, 
make me think they are really good to the nearest 0.001 deg C. Anyway, they 
are installed as follows: 2 in the inlet and outlet of the cooling water 
flow. These are right at the top of the cell on the left and right sides. 3 
in the electrolyte below the cathode, separated vertically and horizontally 
by about a centimeter. One in the ambient air in the incubator, where the 
cell is placed. Note that the incubator door must be left open in order to 
watch the plasma. The plastic inside door is closed.

         3.  What is the typical excess heat that M sees these days?

The same as before: bursts as high as 300 percent, but the average for the 
run is typically close to 30 percent.

         In the past, we heard values ranging up into hundreds of percent
         but it seems to me that the graphs M presents in his papers show
         quite a bit less that that.  Is his "typical" excess heat
         shrinking as his measurement techniques improve?

When graphs are averaged to one minute increments, the heat bursts 
disappear, and you see only the 30 percent excess. If anything, the heat 
has increased since he began to pay close attention to the plasma shape and 
color. With the insulated calorimeter he had difficulty seeing the cathode 
through the peephole.

With the method of calorimetry he used for the past year with the insulated 
cell, he measured the total heat release for the entire run. With that 
arrangement, parameters were: the mass of electrolyte; the starting 
electrolyte temperature; the ending temperature after the power was turned 
off; the cooling curve; total input energy for the run. Heat bursts and 
instantaneous power were irrelevant to his conclusion, although he could 
measure them. Since the new instrument has confirmed the previous power 
measurements, there is no longer any basis to question his results from the 
last year, which showed massive absolute excess heat energy releases. The 
only open question about the previous calorimetry was the input power 
measurement. I do not see how anyone can question the other parameters.

I brought back photographs of the plasma in three stages of formation, 
which Mizuno showed at ICCF8. I will scan them and send .jpg files to 
anyone who requests them. I cannot upload them to my web page easily this 
week, because of changes on this computer. I have installed Windows 2000 
which is far better than Win 98 or Win ME, but I do not have all programs 
up and running yet, and for some reason NatSpeak voice input is not 
cooperating with WordPerfect well.

- Jed

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At 11:11 AM 11/9/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:


>Scott, you should write to him today and ask him to take some photographs 
>of the current setup, which is new.

I did...and I asked him to give the photos to you for dissemination.  I 
won't be in Wash next week.

 >I do not understand why you think this is overarching issue. As long as 
the recovery rate is consistent and measured accurately, what difference 
does it make whether it is 90 percent or 98 percent?

It would only be overarching if the recovery rate were quite poor AND variable.

 >He now uses six probes. They cost $300 apiece, and come with individual 
testing and certification, and I happen to have copies of the certification 
sheets here. The instruments are described as "platinum resistance 
thermometers" (hakkin sokuon teikoutai) but I think they would be called 
thermocouples in English.

Such device are known as RTD's in English.  That stands for Resistance 
Temperature Detector and they are known for stability and accuracy.

 >Since the new instrument has confirmed the previous power measurements, 
there is no longer any basis to question his results from the last year, 
which showed massive absolute excess heat energy releases. The only open 
question about the previous calorimetry was the input power measurement. I 
do not see how anyone can question the other parameters.

I still think there's a potential problem with his heat measurements 
possibly induced by the experiment itself (i.e. the RF noise from the plasma).



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 11:45:29 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Thermometers ...Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results JED
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	To Jed and Vo.,

	To fill in a blank:

	Jed wrote about reading or hearing of a "platinum" thermometer and
said he thought they meant thermocouple.

	Platinum resistance thermometry is NOT based on thermocouple,
abbreviated TM for this discussion, methods.

	TM uses two dissimilar metals to generate a tiny current.  The
output is non linear.  This is OK... it can be linearized...
	BUT ... TM also relies on the difference between a "hot" TM
junction and a "cold" TM junction... and this can get a little more non
linear.

	Platinum, on the other hand is used as a straight resistance
element and its resistance changes with temperature.  It too is non linear
but your are WAY better off for several reasons.  The main reasons include
but are not limited to:

	The temperature VS resistance curve is VERY well known
	A Pt based thermometry set up...is the same all the world
around... as long as the element is Pt.
	Pt is also very good is stability and inertness.

	SO:

	Comparing the two... Pt is way out in front for most applications
	Thermocouple and resistance thermometry are not the same in
function, linearity and method and physics of how it does its job.

	J.

	PS:  I am on the side of experimentalism.

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
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Subject: Noise....and ....RTD
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	Vo


	If you use RTD and you think plasma RF may be a problem then an
each-leg series low resistance choke and set of pi bridging capacitors
will know the plasma RF out to maybe 1/100,000
	Platinum is some very nice readings... and the Pt RTDs are also
low low output resistances cause the noise to be very low.

			J

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Scott Little wrote:

> At 11:11 AM 11/9/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> 
> >Scott, you should write to him today and ask him to take some photographs 
> >of the current setup, which is new.
> 
> I did...and I asked him to give the photos to you for dissemination.  I 
> won't be in Wash next week.
> 
>  >I do not understand why you think this is overarching issue. As long as 
> the recovery rate is consistent and measured accurately, what difference 
> does it make whether it is 90 percent or 98 percent?
> 
> It would only be overarching if the recovery rate were quite poor AND variable.
> 
>  >He now uses six probes. They cost $300 apiece, and come with individual 
> testing and certification, and I happen to have copies of the certification 
> sheets here. The instruments are described as "platinum resistance 
> thermometers" (hakkin sokuon teikoutai) but I think they would be called 
> thermocouples in English.
> 
> Such device are known as RTD's in English.  That stands for Resistance 
> Temperature Detector and they are known for stability and accuracy.
> 
>  >Since the new instrument has confirmed the previous power measurements, 
> there is no longer any basis to question his results from the last year, 
> which showed massive absolute excess heat energy releases. The only open 
> question about the previous calorimetry was the input power measurement. I 
> do not see how anyone can question the other parameters.
> 
> I still think there's a potential problem with his heat measurements 
> possibly induced by the experiment itself (i.e. the RF noise from the plasma).
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 12:49:23 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:45:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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Scott Little wrote:

	I do not understand why you think this is overarching issue. As long as 
the recovery rate is
	consistent and measured accurately, what difference does it make whether 
it is 90 percent
	or 98 percent?

	It would only be overarching if the recovery rate were quite poor AND 
variable.

Nope, it is rock steady.



	Such device are known as RTD's in English.  That stands for Resistance 
Temperature Detector
	and they are known for stability and accuracy.

Oops. I shoulda known.


	I still think there's a potential problem with his heat measurements 
possibly induced by the
	experiment itself (i.e. the RF noise from the plasma).

No, that can't be it. He sees the same excess heat when he uses the total 
heat release method, where he measures the water temperature before the 
power is turned on and again after it is turned off. This method eliminates 
any possibility of interference by RF noise. If anything, RF noise tends to 
depress the temperature reading, artificially reducing the excess heat. 
When power is turned off the temperature jumps up slightly.

Honestly Scott, you should have remembered that. You're not one of these 
people who go on repeating the same objections years after they have been 
addressed. Mizuno proved beyond any doubt that RF noise cannot cause 
spurious elevated temperature readings, by turning off the power. The only 
open question about the 1999 work was whether the input power was correct 
or not. The RF noise might have been causing an error there, but now we 
know it was not. Unless you believe the exact same error will show up to 
within 1% on the PZ4000, three other meters, and the oscilloscope.  I 
suppose some people will never be satisfied, no matter how instruments he 
uses, no matter how much heat they show.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 14:30:58 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 17:29:34 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Yamada JCF2 paper
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Here is a JCF conference paper I should have mentioned. This is my summary; 
the abstracts available on-line.

Paper JCF2-3

Low excess heat evolution and impurity production in light water electrolysis

H. Yamada et al., faculty of engineering, Iwate University

Yamada described experiments with light water systems. He looked for excess 
heat with nickel in light water. Untreated nickel cathodes did not produce 
excess heat. Scraped cathode surfaces and nickel plated cathodes produced 
excess heat up to 10% in nearly every case. Gold cathodes were used in 
the  transmutations studies, with no calorimetry. Highly accurate TOF-SIMS 
spectroscopy was successfully used to identify transmutations and anomalous 
isotopes in gold cathodes. There was a marked increase in accounts for mass 
numbers from 64, 66, 67, 68 and 70. The most notable increase was for mass 
number 67, which probably represents Zn-67, in concentration of 15% 
compared to the natural distribution of 4%. Increased counts for nickel 
were also observed, but the isotopic distribution was natural. EPMA 
analysis of the gold cathodes revealed zinc as well as nickel.


Other researchers described interesting experiments using autoradiographs, 
the tried-and-true method. A used foil cathodes was placed in a holder 
vertically, and film was placed on either side of the cathode, separated 
slightly from the cathode surface to prevent the remote (alleged) 
possibility of contamination from evolved hydrogen or deuterium. Radiation 
was detected in several instances. I do not know why, but I understand it 
is rather difficult to detect such low-level radiation with other modern 
techniques and fancy instruments. Perhaps the background interferes?

- Jed

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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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At 03:45 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

 >Honestly Scott, you should have remembered that.

Yeah.

 >I suppose some people will never be satisfied, no matter how instruments 
he uses, no matter how much heat they show.

It's my own results that are fueling my discontent here, Jed.   As you know 
I have a batting average of exactly .000 for seeing the excess heat 
effect.  No, that doesn't prove anything at all but it fills me with a 
gnawing suspicion that most excess heat results are actually due to errors.

What is needed here is for M's own cell to get measured in my 
calorimeter...with M operating the cell (since I obviously don't know how 
to do that correctly).

Maybe I should again consider traveling to Japan...


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 16:03:13 2000
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:00:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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Scott Little wrote:

>It's my own results that are fueling my discontent here, Jed.   As you 
>know I have a batting average of exactly .000 for seeing the excess heat 
>effect.

You are in good company. Mizuno himself saw no excess heat for months after 
he started working on it, although Ohmori kept telling him it works. When I 
was there a frustrated electrochemist from a large corporation visited him 
with a similar sob story, and spent the afternoon going over the details 
and practicing, and watching the plasma through specially treated glasses.


>   No, that doesn't prove anything at all but it fills me with a gnawing 
> suspicion that most excess heat results are actually due to errors.

At this stage I think would be more rational to have a gnawing suspicion 
that you are doing it wrong, for reasons that neither you nor Mizuno can 
know about. This is not an exact science.

Mind you, I still have *some* doubts about the reality of it.



>What is needed here is for M's own cell to get measured in my 
>calorimeter...with M operating the cell

I think your calorimeter is opaque, so that would be difficult. It would be 
like roller skating through a pitch dark, cluttered warehouse.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:01:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System patent NUMBER ?????
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>	What is the patent number? If you please.
>
I think that the patent number is listed on the website.

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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:20:01 -0600
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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At 07:00 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>At this stage I think would be more rational to have a gnawing suspicion 
>that you are doing it wrong....

that is certainly a possibility.

>I think your calorimeter is opaque, so that would be difficult. It would be 
>like roller skating through a pitch dark, cluttered warehouse.

No, I have a pretty decent window (multi-paned for thermal insulation) into
the cell that permits direct viewing of the cathode during plasma
operation.  See the photos at:

http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:37:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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John Berry wrote:

>Your statements are true for one single individual, not many such individuals.

***{That's what we all are, John: single individuals.

If I were "mind-linked" to 5 million other people scattered around the
country, in such a way that when I began to pursue a goal, each of them
would immediately begin to pursue it as well, then I would be an
enthusiastic voter. For, in that case, when I registered to vote, so too
would the other 5 million people. And when I went down to the polls to vote
for Harry Browne (the best of the lot in the recent election), they would
do likewise. Result: the present media blackout of the Libertarian Party
would collapse, and the principles of liberty would once again become a
force in American politics. Under such circumstances, voting would be worth
the effort: there would be a sure and significant benefit to repay me for
my trouble.

Unfortunately, there is no collectivity to which I am mind-linked. Result:
I get no payoff to make it worth my while to vote. *The same guy will take
office whether I vote or not.*

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>And in the end why should someone have that great a chance of deciding
>government, as you have said before, the average person is borderline brain
>damaged.

***{The fact that the average person is a borderline retard leads to bad
government under one man-one vote, but I am not an advocate of one man-one
vote. I favor a system of constitutionally limited government in which
property rights are absolute, taxes are in proportion to wealth, and people
vote with their tax receipts. Since the accumulation of greater than
average wealth within the context of a private property system requires
greater than average intelligence, and since the accumulation of vast
wealth requires extraordinary intelligence, the majority of votes in the
system I advocate will be cast by people of extraordinary intelligence who
also are exceptionally knowledgeable about how large-scale organizations
ought to be run. Under such a system, you will get good government
*despite* the fact that the average person is an illiterate rube. --MJ}***

>
>As there are many individual votes, each one might make an infinitesimal
>effect,
>but over all makes a strong current of votes.

***{As noted above, unless large numbers of voters were mind-linked to a
single individual, and bound to follow his decisions, you cannot attribute
the conjoint effects of their voting to the decision of a single
individual. --MJ}***

>It is arrogant to separate yourself from all the others, it is only true that
>your vote is wasted in the strict sense if you vote for a 3rd party.
>Because the support of "all those other individuals" isn't there in nearly
>large
>enough numbers.

***{Unless there is a collectivity of voters who are mind-linked to your
decisions, other people are going to vote the same way even if you stay at
home. Result: it makes no difference to the outcome, whether you stay home
or not. --MJ}***

>
>Voting for a 3rd party is useless except for the hope that the results
>this time
>will encourage better results next time. And to generally try and screw the
>system.

***{Voting for a third party, like voting for one of the main two parties,
makes no difference in the outcome. Result: you might as well stay at home.
--MJ}***

>
>In short unless you really are alone in your choice for pres. then you
>should not
>consider your vote to be useless.

***{You should if you want your opinion to be in accord with the facts. It
is only if you prefer your opinion to be in accord with social expediency
that a different conclusion than mine is indicated. --MJ}***

>
>Now I suggest we stop this thread, because we all know the situation
>anyway. The
>facts of such a simple system are below us.
>What we are really talking about is how we have different ways of evaluating
>things.

***{Correct: those who prefer opinions that are based on reason, hence
true, will agree with me; and those who prefer opinions that are socially
expedient, even if untrue, will adopt the orthodox point of view. --MJ}***

>
>Nothing that anyone has said has opened anyones eyes to any technical fact. We
>are just arguing how we feel about politics.

***{No. It is a fundamental moral choice: either we adopt opinions that are
based on reason, even  if they are socially inconvenient, or we adopt
opinions that are socially convenient, even if they cannot be defended by
means of reason. That's the distinction which determines how people's
opinions sort out on this issue, nothing more, and nothing less. --MJ}***

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:47:54 +1100
Organization: Improving
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References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001109162724.03668670 earthtech.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20001109153234.00c24008@pop.mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001109125244.00badca0@earthtech.org> <5.0.0.25.2.20001109103218.00ba8170@pop.mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001109083604.03664
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:20:01 -0600:

>At 07:00 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>At this stage I think would be more rational to have a gnawing suspicion 
>>that you are doing it wrong....
>
>that is certainly a possibility.
[snip]
Hi Scott,

I haven't really be following this closely, so I probably have the bull by
the tail, but I seem to remember you talking about a white plasma glow, and
Jed continually reporting a pink/purple glow. Is it possible that M & O
maintain the purple glow, while you keep on going into the white?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 22:24:00 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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At 04:47 PM 11/10/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I haven't really be following this closely, so I probably have the bull by
>the tail, but I seem to remember you talking about a white plasma glow, and
>Jed continually reporting a pink/purple glow. Is it possible that M & O
>maintain the purple glow, while you keep on going into the white?

Robin,

I have explored a wide range of glow appearances from barely sparking
(purple) to roaring incandescence.  The condition is changed via the cell
voltage with the lowest action being around 80-100 volts and the highest
tolerable action being around 220 volts in my system.  Higher voltages than
that produced such severe electrical noise that my power analyzer couldn't
cope with it.   You can see the results of a scan of these conditions at:

http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html




Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 22:43:14 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:48:03 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: where is the www page .Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System
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	Where is the 'highly informative' web page.  How do we come by
this language?
	Please.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:56:11 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:24:10 -0600:
[snip]
>
>http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html
>
[snip]
Well, I guess that answers my question :(.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  9 23:26:52 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System patent NUMBER ?????
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	Where is the web site? Please.
  


On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, thomas malloy wrote:

> >	What is the patent number? If you please.
> >
> I think that the patent number is listed on the website.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 03:32:13 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: Pinning Down the Radius of Leptons and Quarks (String Circles)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 04:29:05 -0800
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> > >The Compton Wavelength (h/mc) equals the Diameter of the String-WaveCircle
> > >for Leptons or Quarks:
> > > 
> >> Shouldn't that be circumference?
> 
> Yes! How come it took me a full day to realize the goof?  :-)
> 
> It looks like 1/2MR^2*2(pi)f = 1/2 hbar*Alpha, and   M*c*R = hbar*Alpha
> will allow the "Classical/Established Radius" of the Electron to be 2.81E-15 meters
> which will satisfy the Moment of Inertia term 1/2MR^2.
> 
> Then the  Circumference of a Lepton or Quark will be h*Alpha/mc = 2(pi)R,
> where h/mc is the Compton wavelength.
> 
> Hard to pin down what the "Fine Structure Constant", Alpha (0.00729729) really is.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 06:11:37 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:10:35 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: President Gore
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With the Bush margin down to a bit more than 300 votes in Florida, I would
say that a Gore presidency is now rather likely. The reason: there are some
2500 overseas military ballots that are in transit, which have not yet been
counted, and while Bush would probably win 2-to-1 among those votes under
normal circumstances, these are *not* normal circumstances. To be blunt:
Bill Clinton knows that Gore needs 300-plus votes, and I have no doubt that
"spooks" from the Clinton adminstration are sifting the incoming ballots
out of the overseas mail as we speak, steaming them open, and tossing a
sufficient number of the pro-Bush votes in the trash to ensure that Gore
will prevail. Bottom line: I expect Gore to "win," and I suggest that those
of you who are uncomfortable with that begin getting used to it.

By the way, regarding the claim that Gore won the popular vote: since both
candidates ran their campaigns with the aim of maximizing their electoral
college totals, there is no way to judge who would have won if they had
been trying to maximize their popular votes. Both candidates spent little
money in states where the race was not close, and thus the voter turnout
was lower in those areas. In Texas, for example, Bush did little
campaigning, since it was in his pocket. If he *had* campaigned there, he
could undoubtedly have increased his popular vote total by hundreds of
thousands of votes. Thus the claim that Gore is the most popular of the two
candidates is entirely bogus. There is no way to judge that, because these
campaigns were not intended to maximize popular vote totals.

 --Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 06:13:21 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

... Since the accumulation of greater than average wealth
within the context of a private property system requires
greater than average intelligence, and since the accumulation of vast
wealth requires extraordinary intelligence ...

Hi Mitch,

My observation is that --  given reasonably competent lawyers, 
accountants, and bankers --  the 10% average annual increase
in the value of stocks (compund interest in general) is the
main cause of increase in wealth regardless of the intelligence
of the owners.  The talents of the two scions (members of the
Tweedle family?) fighting it out in Florida bear witness to
this.

Jack Smith


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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:31:29 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>... Since the accumulation of greater than average wealth
>within the context of a private property system requires
>greater than average intelligence, and since the accumulation of vast
>wealth requires extraordinary intelligence ...
>
>Hi Mitch,
>
>My observation is that --  given reasonably competent lawyers,
>accountants, and bankers --  the 10% average annual increase
>in the value of stocks (compund interest in general) is the
>main cause of increase in wealth regardless of the intelligence
>of the owners.  The talents of the two scions (members of the
>Tweedle family?) fighting it out in Florida bear witness to
>this.
>
>Jack Smith

***{You are correct, but this a fascist economic system in which
politically connected insiders use the legal and regulatory framework to
stifle their competition, rather than a capitalistic system in which
property rights are absolute. Since I very specifically referred to a
system in which property rights were absolute, your objection does not
apply to my remarks.

Under the present system the financial cartel, consisting primarily of
brokerage firms, mutual funds, and banks, is protected by a vast network of
laws and regulations that enable them to lure the public into bubble
markets. Result: the cartel members rake in vast profits in the form of
commissions, transaction fees, etc., during the phase when the bubble is
expanding, and the public thinks it is rich. And then, when the market
crashes, breaking the country, they are short, and trillions of dollars are
transferred into their pockets. Under capitalism, however, no such scenario
is possible: (a) the fraudulent system known as "fractional reserve
banking" would be prosecuted as the criminal enterprise that it is, and (b)
the "wolves of Wall Street"--men like legendary speculator Jay Gould--are
unfettered under capitalism, and their very public manipulations have the
effect of scaring the public away from the market. Result: monetary
inflation cannot happen, the stock, bond, and commodity markets are mostly
the domain of professionals, as they should be, and vast stock market
bubbles such as the one looming over us today cannot happen.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 08:05:15 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:03:47 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Dr. Baumgartner
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Greetings fellow Vortexians;

I listened to Dr. Walter Baumgartner speak at the Inter Tesla Soc 
meeting in 1994. He had lots of pretty pictures of nifty machines 
that were going to do all sorts of marvelous things. The question is 
does he have any hardware? At the time, he was planning on publishing 
a book. This website offers a subscription to a newsletter, I'm going 
to search the site looking for an email address and see if he has any 
working machines. His URL is http://www.vortexscience.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 09:53:48 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC A mind-linked terrestrial species
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{That's what we all are, John: single individuals.

>If I were "mind-linked" to 5 million other people scattered around the
>country, in such a way that when I began to pursue a goal, each of them
>would immediately begin to pursue it as well . . .

This is a classic science-fiction story scenario: the mind-linked race of 
beings, with no more individuality than the cells of your body or the bees 
in a hive. In fact, I have long suspected that an intelligent race of mind 
linked creatures does exist right here on earth. They are one of the 
largest animals on the planet: Homo sapiens. No, I do not believe in ESP or 
subconscious mind reading. Human minds are linked by a crude but efficient 
technique: language! Talk, gab, writing, Internet. As I often say, words 
have consequences. Words are more powerful than any other force in society. 
An idea expressed in words can overthrow an empire or change the face of 
the earth in a generation. Ancient people understood the mystical power of 
language, which is why they wrote "in the beginning was the word."

A man from Mars viewing our species would first note that we spend most of 
our time communicating. Watching people behave on Wall Street or in the 
fashion industry, he might wonder whether we are so mind-linked we lose all 
individual personality. Language is an imperfect way to link minds, but 
compared to the methods available to bees, dogs, whales and other social 
animals it gives us a much clearer view of the thought processes of other 
minds. Jones says that if he were mind linked to 5 million other people, he 
could do thus and such, manipulating them in various ways. Clever and 
resourceful people do exactly what he describes. They write books, they 
give speeches, they build organizations, and by communicating they bend 
millions of followers to their will. They communicate by writing or 
broadcasting on AM radio, instead of direct mind reading. It works in only 
one direction at a time. By objective standards the result is one mind 
affecting the content of another. By use of  language, one person or a 
small group of people can influence large groups to cooperate and build 
pyramids, invade Russia, or stamp out polio.

Language is the most amazing accomplishment of our species. It is our most 
complex and least understood behavior. It is the best proof (if anyone 
needs it) that we are all equally human. I expect machines will sooner or 
later learn to converse in our language, but I sometimes doubt they will 
pass the Turing test. No matter how much our science progresses in the 
future, I expect language itself will remain our greatest triumph.

- Jed

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:01:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC A mind-linked terrestrial species
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>***{That's what we all are, John: single individuals.
>
>>If I were "mind-linked" to 5 million other people scattered around the
>>country, in such a way that when I began to pursue a goal, each of them
>>would immediately begin to pursue it as well . . .
>
>This is a classic science-fiction story scenario: the mind-linked race of
>beings, with no more individuality than the cells of your body or the bees
>in a hive. In fact, I have long suspected that an intelligent race of mind
>linked creatures does exist right here on earth. They are one of the
>largest animals on the planet: Homo sapiens. No, I do not believe in ESP or
>subconscious mind reading. Human minds are linked by a crude but efficient
>technique: language! Talk, gab, writing, Internet. As I often say, words
>have consequences. Words are more powerful than any other force in society.
>An idea expressed in words can overthrow an empire or change the face of
>the earth in a generation. Ancient people understood the mystical power of
>language, which is why they wrote "in the beginning was the word."
>
>A man from Mars viewing our species would first note that we spend most of
>our time communicating. Watching people behave on Wall Street or in the
>fashion industry, he might wonder whether we are so mind-linked we lose all
>individual personality. Language is an imperfect way to link minds, but
>compared to the methods available to bees, dogs, whales and other social
>animals it gives us a much clearer view of the thought processes of other
>minds. Jones says that if he were mind linked to 5 million other people, he
>could do thus and such, manipulating them in various ways. Clever and
>resourceful people do exactly what he describes. They write books, they
>give speeches, they build organizations, and by communicating they bend
>millions of followers to their will. They communicate by writing or
>broadcasting on AM radio, instead of direct mind reading. It works in only
>one direction at a time. By objective standards the result is one mind
>affecting the content of another. By use of  language, one person or a
>small group of people can influence large groups to cooperate and build
>pyramids, invade Russia, or stamp out polio.
>
>Language is the most amazing accomplishment of our species. It is our most
>complex and least understood behavior. It is the best proof (if anyone
>needs it) that we are all equally human. I expect machines will sooner or
>later learn to converse in our language, but I sometimes doubt they will
>pass the Turing test. No matter how much our science progresses in the
>future, I expect language itself will remain our greatest triumph.
>
>- Jed

***{All of which is fine and dandy, obvious, and irrelevant to the
issue--which is: does the effort of voting yield up a benefit that is
sufficient to justify doing it?

The hypothetical "mind-link" that I discussed was capable of rendering it
rational to vote, because it was an automatic connection between a group of
minds that required no additional expenditure of effort. Because of that,
it increased the benefit the leader of the mind-linked group would get from
voting, without increasing the cost--the effort--of voting, and thus was
capable of turning voting into a worthwhile activity.

The non-hypothetical "mind-link" that you discussed, however, requires
additional activity, and hence effort, on the part of the person who would
influence the opinions of others: he must write a book, go around giving
speeches, order his employees to behave in certain ways, etc. Result: its
effects are *not* linked to the effects of going down to the polls and
casting your one measly vote, and must be evaluated separately. That means
after you have written a book, or given hundreds of speeches, etc., and
have persuaded everyone you are capable of persuading, you still have one
last decision to make on election day: do you go down to the polls and cast
your one vote, or not? And you cannot count the influence you have already
exerted on others as part of the benefit of going down and voting, because
the people you have persuaded will not become unpersuaded if you do not
vote. They are persuaded or not, irrespective of whether you vote. Hence
your decision to vote or not turns on exactly what I have been saying: on
the fact that the chance is infinitesimal that the outcome will be any
different, whether you go to the polls or not.

Bottom line: it is an inescapable, unarguable fact that in a democracy,
under virtually all circumstances, voting is an irrational act.

Enough said.

--Mitchell Jones}***



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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 10, 2000
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:10:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 10 Nov 00   Washington, DC

1. COLD FUSION: CONFERENCES HELD, PATENT REJECTED.  The American
Nuclear Society is holding an embarrassing session on cold-fusion
at its meeting next week in Washington.  Capitalizing on the
presence of so many fanciful minds, the new-age Integrity
Research Institute (WN 5 Mar 99) holds its free-energy conference
two days later.  A likely topic of discussion is last Wednesday's
ruling by a Circuit Court of Appeals to reject the appeal of
Michael Swartz for a cold-fusion patent on the grounds of "lack
of operability."  The Court ruled that the patent didn't convince
sensible people that the idea could work.  But, not everybody
falls into that category.  Testifying for Swartz were two invited
speakers at the IRI conference - Eugene Mallove and Scott Chubb.

2. DEEP IMPACT?  EARTH DODGES ANOTHER SPACE THING.  I have a new
appreciation for the danger inherent in seemingly improbable
collisions.  Nevertheless, the NASA Near-Earth Object Program may
want to reexamine its definition of "near."  A couple of weeks
ago, it was reported that a small asteroid might strike Earth in
30 years.  The subsequent retraction was not the first: in 1993
it was comet Swift-Tuttle, followed in 1998  by XF11 (WN 13 Mar
98).  The estimate of nearest passage has a way of growing an
order of magnitude every 24 hours.  Current rules call for a 72
hour delay.  This time, it seems likely the object is not an
asteroid, but an Apollo-era booster rocket.

3. HIGGS HUNT HINDERED.  On Nov 2, CERN shut down the LEP for the
last time, with demolition scheduled to begin in December, after
the CERN Council meets to confirm the decision.  Crushed
researchers say they were on the verge of confirming discovery of
the Higgs boson.  They had requested a year-long extension, as
well as modifications to boost the accelerator's energy.  But the
lab found the current results were "not sufficiently conclusive"
to warrant the $60M price tag, and chose to push ahead with
construction of the Large Hadron Collider.  CERN researchers can
now only hope to receive joint credit with any discovery at
Fermilab, where Higgs experiments begin in the spring.

4.ELECTION: HOW DID THE PHYSICISTS DO? "This shows every vote
counts," remarked plasma physicist Rep.  Rush Holt (D-NJ).  And
he wasn't talking about Florida.  With 1500 provisional ballots
still outstanding, Holt claims he leads Dick Zimmer by 292 votes. 
Zimmer says he leads Holt by 393.  Oh, for math standards!  No
such problem for nuclear physicist Rep. Vern Ehlers (R-MI), who
was reelected with 65% of the popular vote.  And the White House?
Natural Law Party candidate physicist John Hagelin fared poorly,
because, as he explained, "our solutions have been co-opted." 
Co-opted?  Has Hagelin's corps of yogic flyers (WN 9 Apr 99) sold
out to the mainstream? Inquiring minds demand an answer.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 14:01:08 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Yamada JCF2 paper
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I should add that Ohmori has been cooperating with Yamada on the gold 
experiments. He said he thinks the transportation results are broadly 
compatible with his own.

- Jed

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NatSpeak wrote: "He said he thinks the transportation results are broadly 
compatible with his own." My comment: And the transmutation results, too.

- Jed

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Subject: The CF2-3 Yamada Abstract
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------CB93CF97F96A94B9EB874159
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Nov. 10, 2,000

Vortex,

I have earlier downloaded and printed out the CF2 Abstract from the
JCF-RS website for my own reference. Here is the Yamada Abstract that
Jed refers to as an attachment file. 
It is in ASCII text.

-AK-
--------------CB93CF97F96A94B9EB874159
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 name="CF2-3 Yamada.txt"
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 filename="CF2-3 Yamada.txt"

       ICF2-3
       Low Excess Heat Evolution and Impunties Production in Light Water
       Electrolysis
       Hiroshi Yamada, Hideyuki Oizumi, Yoshikazu Fujii, Shingo Sato, Mitsuru
       Nakamura, Hidetoshi Hirahara and Shinya Narita
       
       Faculty of Engineening, Iwate Unitversity, Morioka 020~55 1 Japan
       
       ABSTRACT
          Three electrolytic cells made of quartz with a brass or a polyethylene
       Ilange were used. These have a cylindrical shape with volume capacity of
       1OOcm3(Cell A), 2OOcm3(Cell B) and 5()()cm3(Cell C). The brass flange
       was plated with gold in l0 f mm thickness. A couple of rectangular shape
       working elelectrodes of 0.l 0 mm with gap spacing of l0 mm were set in
       Cell A for excess heat measurement test. A platinum anode electrode was
       used in this test The counter cathode electrode was a nickel, nickel scraped
       and nickel-pIated iron. A larger nickel-plated cathode of 0.1  10  l0mm was
       also used together with a same size platinum anode. The electrolyte
       solution was 0.5 M sodium carbonate solution. The volume of electrolyte
       solution was 40 cm3.  Cell voltage and the increments of electrolyte
       solution temperature were monitored by a personal computer. Cell B and C
       were used only for transmutation experiment; a gold electrode of  0.1  5 
       l0mm as a cathode and a 80-mesh platinum net as a anode were employed
       for the tesL The electrolyte solution was 0.5 M sodium sulfate solution. The
       volume of electrolyte solution was 150-200cm3for Cell B and 500cm3 for
       Cell B. Both the electrolytes were pre~tcom Merck Sprapur Reagents. The
       electrolysis was carried out for 7-30 days using Cell A at a constant current
       0.5-1 Amps and 3 months using Cell C at a constant current 0.5 Amps. The
       constituting elements on the gold electroe after electrolysis were identitled
       by means of Time-of-Flight Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry(TOF-SIMS)
       and Electron Probe Microanalysis(EPMA). Their isotopic compcsitions
       were surveyed by TOF-SIM� The SIMS measurement was carried out by
       Ga+ ion irmdiation.
            No excess power was measured for nickel cathode. However, excess
       power levels of up to 10  was measured for scraped nickel cathode and
       nickel-plated cathode. The highest excess power level of 10 was observed
       in a test using nickel-plated cathode of 0.1  10 l0mm. Marked increase in
       counts for mass number 64, 66, 67, 68 and 70, which correspond to zinc,
       were oboerved on the gold cathode after electrolysis. The isotopic
       composition of mass number 67, probably oorresonds to 67Zn,  was
       increased to 15  frorri 4  of its natural value. Increase in counts of nickel
       was also observed by SIMS, however, no change in its national isotopic
       composition was seen. EPMA have also showed an increase in the amount
       of zinc as well as nickel for the same gold cathode after SIMS.
       

--------------CB93CF97F96A94B9EB874159--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 17:53:17 2000
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:51:10 EST
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In a message dated 11/10/00 6:11:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:


> To be blunt:
> Bill Clinton knows that Gore needs 300-plus votes, and I have no doubt that
> "spooks" from the Clinton adminstration are sifting the incoming ballots
> out of the overseas mail as we speak, steaming them open, and tossing a
> sufficient number of the pro-Bush votes in the trash to ensure that Gore
> 

Hi Mitchell,
       I've been thinking that but I wish you hadn't said it.  It is too 
right-on the Clinton pattern to laugh off.  For example, 900 FBI files.  The 
more the thing drags out the more opportunities there are to mess around and 
the intent seems to be to drag it out.  Maybe we should just do what they 
want... keep having new elections and recounts untill it comes out the way 
they want it.

Keep smiling!---Have faith!

Bob Briggs

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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/10/00 6:11:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net <BR>writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">To be blunt:
<BR>Bill Clinton knows that Gore needs 300-plus votes, and I have no doubt that
<BR>"spooks" from the Clinton adminstration are sifting the incoming ballots
<BR>out of the overseas mail as we speak, steaming them open, and tossing a
<BR>sufficient number of the pro-Bush votes in the trash to ensure that Gore
<BR>will prevail.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Hi Mitchell,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I've been thinking that but I wish you hadn't said it. &nbsp;It is too <BR>right-on the Clinton pattern to laugh off. &nbsp;For example, 900 FBI files. &nbsp;The <BR>more the thing drags out the more opportunities 
there are to mess around and <BR>the intent seems to be to drag it out. &nbsp;Maybe we should just do what they <BR>want... keep having new elections and recounts untill it comes out the way <BR>they want it.
<BR>
<BR>Keep smiling!---Have faith!
<BR>
<BR>Bob Briggs</FONT></HTML>

--part1_54.bb44a19.273e000e_boundary--

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Subject: FutureGeek
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Ahoy!

With the holidays approaching, some of you may be scratching your heads over
what to get the kids, or in some cases, what to put on your own wishlist to
Santa.  When I was a kid, my folks and a few others in my family always gave
me kits of one sort or another, mainly I think, to distract me from my usual
habit of disassembling all of their household appliances.  It worked too,
for a while anyway.  I would have loved having one of these gizmos.

http://Mindstorms.Lego.com/

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 19:45:30 2000
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:49:45 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC A mind-linked terrestrial species
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >***{That's what we all are, John: single individuals.
> >
> >>If I were "mind-linked" to 5 million other people scattered around the
> >>country, in such a way that when I began to pursue a goal, each of them
> >>would immediately begin to pursue it as well . . .
> >
> >This is a classic science-fiction story scenario: the mind-linked race of
> >beings, with no more individuality than the cells of your body or the bees
> >in a hive. In fact, I have long suspected that an intelligent race of mind
> >linked creatures does exist right here on earth. They are one of the
> >largest animals on the planet: Homo sapiens. No, I do not believe in ESP or
> >subconscious mind reading. Human minds are linked by a crude but efficient
> >technique: language! Talk, gab, writing, Internet. As I often say, words
> >have consequences. Words are more powerful than any other force in society.
> >An idea expressed in words can overthrow an empire or change the face of
> >the earth in a generation. Ancient people understood the mystical power of
> >language, which is why they wrote "in the beginning was the word."
> >
> >A man from Mars viewing our species would first note that we spend most of
> >our time communicating. Watching people behave on Wall Street or in the
> >fashion industry, he might wonder whether we are so mind-linked we lose all
> >individual personality. Language is an imperfect way to link minds, but
> >compared to the methods available to bees, dogs, whales and other social
> >animals it gives us a much clearer view of the thought processes of other
> >minds. Jones says that if he were mind linked to 5 million other people, he
> >could do thus and such, manipulating them in various ways. Clever and
> >resourceful people do exactly what he describes. They write books, they
> >give speeches, they build organizations, and by communicating they bend
> >millions of followers to their will. They communicate by writing or
> >broadcasting on AM radio, instead of direct mind reading. It works in only
> >one direction at a time. By objective standards the result is one mind
> >affecting the content of another. By use of  language, one person or a
> >small group of people can influence large groups to cooperate and build
> >pyramids, invade Russia, or stamp out polio.
> >
> >Language is the most amazing accomplishment of our species. It is our most
> >complex and least understood behavior. It is the best proof (if anyone
> >needs it) that we are all equally human. I expect machines will sooner or
> >later learn to converse in our language, but I sometimes doubt they will
> >pass the Turing test. No matter how much our science progresses in the
> >future, I expect language itself will remain our greatest triumph.
> >
> >- Jed
> 
> ***{All of which is fine and dandy, obvious, and irrelevant to the
> issue--which is: does the effort of voting yield up a benefit that is
> sufficient to justify doing it?
> 
> The hypothetical "mind-link" that I discussed was capable of rendering it
> rational to vote, because it was an automatic connection between a group of
> minds that required no additional expenditure of effort. Because of that,
> it increased the benefit the leader of the mind-linked group would get from
> voting, without increasing the cost--the effort--of voting, and thus was
> capable of turning voting into a worthwhile activity.
> 
> The non-hypothetical "mind-link" that you discussed, however, requires
> additional activity, and hence effort, on the part of the person who would
> influence the opinions of others: he must write a book, go around giving
> speeches, order his employees to behave in certain ways, etc. Result: its
> effects are *not* linked to the effects of going down to the polls and
> casting your one measly vote, and must be evaluated separately. That means
> after you have written a book, or given hundreds of speeches, etc., and
> have persuaded everyone you are capable of persuading, you still have one
> last decision to make on election day: do you go down to the polls and cast
> your one vote, or not? And you cannot count the influence you have already
> exerted on others as part of the benefit of going down and voting, because
> the people you have persuaded will not become unpersuaded if you do not
> vote. They are persuaded or not, irrespective of whether you vote. Hence
> your decision to vote or not turns on exactly what I have been saying: on
> the fact that the chance is infinitesimal that the outcome will be any
> different, whether you go to the polls or not.
> 
> Bottom line: it is an inescapable, unarguable fact that in a democracy,
> under virtually all circumstances, voting is an irrational act.
> 
> Enough said.
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 21:12:19 2000
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Appeal from Texas
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Mitchell Jones wrote;

>Result: the present media blackout of the Libertarian Party
>would collapse, and the principles of liberty would once again become a
>force in American politics. Under such circumstances, voting would be worth
>the effort: there would be a sure and significant benefit to repay me for
>my trouble.

The problem with the Libertarian platform it that it has something to 
offend everyone. I used to think that there was someway to get most 
people to want to be free. Unfortunately things have gone the 
opposite way, the majority of the people want to get their snoots in 
the governmental feed troff.


>
>Unfortunately, there is no collectivity to which I am mind-linked. Result:
>I get no payoff to make it worth my while to vote. *The same guy will take
>office whether I vote or not.*


They are tweedle dee and tweedle dee dumb.

>
>-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 21:35:04 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: President Gore
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:34:24 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:10:35 -0600, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>Bill Clinton knows that Gore needs 300-plus votes, and I have no doubt that
>"spooks" from the Clinton adminstration are sifting the incoming ballots
>out of the overseas mail as we speak, steaming them open, and tossing a
>sufficient number of the pro-Bush votes in the trash to ensure that Gore
>will prevail. Bottom line: I expect Gore to "win," and I suggest that those
>of you who are uncomfortable with that begin getting used to it.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  Lots of the "spooks" aren't terribly
in favor of Clinton, from the scuttlebutt I've read.  They could make
a few mistakes.  :)

>By the way, regarding the claim that Gore won the popular vote: 

Even that may not be true when all the votes are counted.  There are
still lots of uncounted votes in NY and CA that could bring Bush's
margin a little closer in those states -- and affect the popular vote
in the whole USA.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 10 23:28:56 2000
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Subject: Yamada abstract:  heat, Zn on Ni, Au cathodes, H2O 11.10.00
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Yamada abstract:  heat, Zn on Ni, Au cathodes, H2O 11.10.00

Subject:  The CF2-3 Yamada Abstract
Resent-Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:13:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:25:47 -0800
From:   Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
To:  Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Nov. 10, 2000
Vortex,
I have earlier downloaded and printed out the CF2 Abstract from the
JCF-RS website for my own reference. Here is the Yamada Abstract that
Jed refers to as an attachment file.   It is in ASCII text.
-AK-  [Guessed corrections by Rich Murray]

ICF2-3  Low Excess Heat Evolution and
Impurities Production in Light Water Electrolysis
Hiroshi Yamada, Hideyuki Oizumi, Yoshikazu Fujii, Shingo Sato,
Mitsuru  Nakamura, Hidetoshi Hirahara and Shinya Narita
Faculty of Engineering, Iwate University, Morioka 020-8551 Japan
http://www.iwate-u.ac.jp/index.html

ABSTRACT
Three electrolytic cells made of quartz with a brass or a
polyethylene flange were used.
These have a cylindrical shape with volume capacity of
100 cm3 (Cell A), 200 cm3 (Cell B) and 500 cm3 (Cell C).
The brass flange was plated with gold in l0 micron thickness.
A couple of rectangular shape working electrodes of 0.l0 mm
with gap spacing of  l0 mm were set in Cell A
for excess heat measurement test. A platinum anode electrode
was used in this test.  The counter cathode electrode was
nickel, nickel scraped, or nickel-plated iron.
A larger nickel-plated cathode of 0.1X10Xl0 mm was
also used together with a same size platinum anode.
The electrolyte solution was 0.5 M sodium carbonate solution.
The volume of electrolyte solution was 40 cm3.
Cell voltage and the increments of electrolyte
solution temperature were monitored by a personal computer.
Cell B and C were used only for transmutation experiment;
a gold electrode of 0.1X5Xl0 mm as a cathode and
a 80-mesh platinum net as an anode were employed
for the test.  The electrolyte solution was 0.5 M sodium sulfate
solution. The volume of electrolyte solution was 150-200 cm3
for Cell B and 500 cm3 for Cell C.
Both the electrolytes were [pre~tcom?]  Merck Sprapur Reagents.
The electrolysis was carried out for 7-30 days using Cell A at a
constant current 0.5-1 Amps and
3 months using Cell C at a constant current 0.5 Amps.
The constituting elements on the gold electrode after electrolysis were
identified by means of Time-of-Flight Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry
(TOF-SIMS) and Electron Probe Microanalysis (EPMA).
Their isotopic compositions were surveyed by TOF-SIMS.
The SIMS measurement was carried out by Ga+ ion irridiation.
[Ar+ ion?]
No excess power was measured for nickel cathode.
However, excess power levels of up to 10  was measured
for scraped nickel cathode and nickel-plated cathode.
The highest excess power level of 10 was observed
in a test using nickel-plated cathode of 0.1X10Xl0mm. Marked
increase in counts for mass number 64, 66, 67, 68 and 70,
which correspond to zinc, were observed on the gold cathode after
electrolysis. The isotopic composition of mass number 67,
probably corresponds to 67Zn,  was increased to 15  from 4,
of its natural value. Increase in counts of nickel
was also observed by SIMS, however, no change in its natural
isotopic composition was seen.
EPMA have also showed an increase in the amount
of zinc as well as nickel for the same gold cathode after SIMS.
****************************************************

Wayne Green's Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) # 23, Sept., 1997, has an
abstract by Prof. Hiroshi Yamada, Dept. Electrical Engineering, Iwate
U., Morioka 020, Japan  http://www.iwate-u.ac.jp/index.html

"Products on Gold-plate Cathode in Water Electrolysis System (poster
presentation)
In an Au/H2O electrolysis system with an Na2SO4 solution,
the electrolysis was carried out for 16-40 days
with a current density of 0.5 A/cm2.
The elements on the gold-pate cathode were identified by
means of secondary ion mass spectrometry and X-ray photo-electron
spectroscopy.  A large amount of carbon and iron were observed to have
been deposited on the gold-plate."
********************************************************

Zn64 48.6+- 0.3 %

Zn66 27.9+- 0.2

Zn67  4.1+-  0.1  Interferences from (Zn66)H and (Cu65)H2, from brass,
                             an alloy of Cu and Zn?

Zn68 18.8+- 0.4

Zn70  0.6+-  0.1
*************************************************************

http://www.in.kobe-u.ac.jp/English/MECH_DEPT/MECH_DIV/fYoshikazu.html
Yoshikazu Fujii , D.Eng., Associate Professor

Education: Faculty of Engineering, Kyoto University; 1980,
Graduate School (Master's Course), Kyoto University; 1988,
Graduate School (Dotcor's Course), Kyoto University; 1991

Field of Instruction and Research: Physical Crystallography,
Diffraction Physics of X-rays and Electrons, Surface Physics,
Atomic Physics

Research Activities: Structure Analysis of Crystal Surface and
Interface by X-ray, Electron Beam and Ion Beam, Production
of New Alloys by Vacuum Depositions and Structural Investigation

Main Publications: ``Charge State Distributions of MeV He Ions
Channeled through Thin Crystals with Atomically Clean
Surfaces'', J.Phys. Soc. Japan Vol.58 (1989) 2758-2766.
``Layer-by-Layer Growth studied by Glancing Angle Scattering of
Fast Ions'', Appl. Phys. Lett. Vol.63 (1993) 2070-2072.
``Energy Loss of 0.7-MeV He Ions due to the Dynamic Response of
Surface Electrons'', Phys. Rev. A47 (1993) 2047-2054.
``Interplay of Charge Exchange and Energy Loss of MeV He Ions
Specularly Reflected from a Crystal Surface'',
Phys. Rev. A49 (1994) 1897-1907.
*****************************************************

http://www.mech.kobe-u.ac.jp/~fujiiy/index-e
Yoshikazu FUJII: Dr. Eng, Associate Professor

Education: Faculty of Engineering, Kyoto University;
1980, Graduate School of Engineering (Master's Course),
Kyoto University;
1988, Graduate School of Engineering (Doctor's Course),
Kyoto University;
1991.
Field of Instruction and Research: Applied Physics of Property and
Crystallography, Surface Physics of Matter.
Research Activities: Structural analyses of solid surfaces and
interfaces and estimations of physical properties
of industrial materials by x-ray
scattering, electron diffraction, and ion beam scattering.
Study on x-rays and ion beam interactions with growing surfaces of
crystal.
Main Publications: "A compact UHV X-ray diffractometer for
studying surfaces and interfaces", Journal of Synchrotron Radiation,
Vol.5, pp.887-889 (1998).
"In situ Observation of Layer-by-layer Growth by
Surface X-ray Scattering using a Rotating-anode Source",
Surface Science Letter, Vol.405, No.2-3, pp.549-553 (1998).
"Small Angle Glancing X-ray Scattering for Surface Characterization
of Ion-Implanted Industrial Materials",
Proc. of 12th Int'l. Conf. on Ion Implantation Technology,
IIT/98, pp.1121-1124 (1999).'
TEL/FAX: +81-78-803-6116/+81-78-803-6155
Room No.: Kyou413     E-mail: fujiiyos kobe-u.ac.jp
*******************************************************

http://www.quasi.iastate.edu/Directory/Directory.html
Yoshikazu Fujii   Department of Mechanical Engineering
Kobe University     Rokkodai,Nada    657 KOBE   Japan
*******************************************************

http://www.jssst.or.jp/csj/journals/nikka/abs/nikka0004/nk00281a.html
Development of Resin-molding-releasing Metal Mold Surface Using
Perfluoroalkyl Group-containing Polymer Plating
Kunio MORI*, Hidetoshi HIRAHARA and Yoshiyuki OISHI
Department of Applied Chemistry, Iwate University;
Ueda, Morioka-shi 020-8551 Japan
*******************************************************

Mitsuru  Nakamura  s956620 cc.osaka-kyoiku.ac.jp
*******************************************************

http://www.awa.tohoku.ac.jp/~narita/
narita awa.tohoku.ac.jp   Shinya Narita

I am a postdoc in Research Center for Neutrino Science(RCNS)
of the Tohoku University. I had worked on my thesis as a
member of SLD, particulary CRID(Cherenkov Ring Imaging Detector)
at Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. Now, I am
working on Belle experiment. Our Tohoku members are involved in
KLM group and responsible for construction and
calibration of RPC (Resistive Plate Counter).
********************************************************





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 07:03:31 2000
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 <v04011700b631aebe2c2a [207.8.127.138]>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:52:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: President Gore
Resent-Message-ID: <"UAApE3.0.H92.byL3w" mx2>
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>Hi Mitchell,
>
>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:10:35 -0600, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Bill Clinton knows that Gore needs 300-plus votes, and I have no doubt that
>>"spooks" from the Clinton adminstration are sifting the incoming ballots
>>out of the overseas mail as we speak, steaming them open, and tossing a
>>sufficient number of the pro-Bush votes in the trash to ensure that Gore
>>will prevail. Bottom line: I expect Gore to "win," and I suggest that those
>>of you who are uncomfortable with that begin getting used to it.
>
>I wouldn't be too sure of that.  Lots of the "spooks" aren't terribly
>in favor of Clinton, from the scuttlebutt I've read.  They could make
>a few mistakes.  :)

***{Come on, Dean, get serious. Clinton will obviously put people on the
job that he can trust. And since the Bush people do not appear to be
cynical enough to have even thought about this possibility, there are no
poll watchers shepherding the mail sacks to their destination. Result: only
the honesty of Bill Clinton can prevent this outcome. Thus I expect that,
when the overseas absentee ballots are counted, they will, for the first
time ever, show a large majority in favor of the Democratic candidate, and
Al Gore will be our next president. And since, as I noted in another post,
"Mr. Market" clearly doesn't like Al Gore, there is an excellent chance
that the long overdue crash will occur either in anticipation of that
event, or immediately after it occurs. In fact, with the December
NASDAQ-100 futures closing well below *major* support on Friday, it may
already be too late to avert that outcome. --MJ}***

>
>>By the way, regarding the claim that Gore won the popular vote:
>
>Even that may not be true when all the votes are counted.  There are
>still lots of uncounted votes in NY and CA that could bring Bush's
>margin a little closer in those states -- and affect the popular vote
>in the whole USA.
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 08:22:20 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:07:25 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
> ***{Come on, Dean, get serious. Clinton will obviously put people on the
> job that he can trust. And since the Bush people do not appear to be
> cynical enough to have even thought about this possibility, there are no
> poll watchers shepherding the mail sacks to their destination. 

Maybe, but what did Dubya's Dad do for a living before he was the Prez?

I suspect there is something called the Military Industrial Complex
behind Dubya. 

Terry

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: President Gore
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:50:19 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:07:25 -0800, Terry Blanton
<commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
>> ***{Come on, Dean, get serious. Clinton will obviously put people on the
>> job that he can trust. And since the Bush people do not appear to be
>> cynical enough to have even thought about this possibility, there are no
>> poll watchers shepherding the mail sacks to their destination. 
>
>Maybe, but what did Dubya's Dad do for a living before he was the Prez?

Hmm.  Wasn't he the head of the spook brigade?

>I suspect there is something called the Military Industrial Complex
>behind Dubya. 

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:19:00 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: President Gore
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Dean -

>Hmm.  Wasn't he the head of the spook brigade?

Yup.

Funny though:

W thinks he's entitled to be president because of the legal results 
of an election. (Perhaps because the spooky know the presidency 
really doesn't matter that much as long as the black gov stays in 
charge <g>)

AG thinks he's entitled to be president because he's just entitled to 
it. It's the fundamental way Dems think - Entitlements R Us.

This is how we become a banana republic, when it's more important 
that "our" man get in no matter what the laws say. So now to the 
streets, and "keep a smile on your face as you smash the state". 
Fools.

http://geocities.com/countercoup/


Protests are being organized, look out.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 15:12:17 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:08:17 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FutureGeek
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> With the holidays approaching, some of you may be scratching your heads over
> what to get the kids, or in some cases, what to put on your own wishlist to
> Santa.  When I was a kid, my folks and a few others in my family always gave
> me kits of one sort or another, mainly I think, to distract me from my usual
> habit of disassembling all of their household appliances.  It worked too,
> for a while anyway.  I would have loved having one of these gizmos.
> 
> http://Mindstorms.Lego.com/


Here are a bunch of other (ahem) adult toys:

  http://www.amasci.com/amateur/toys1.html





((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 16:47:45 2000
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: President Gore
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:49:05 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Mitchell,

On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:52:04 -0600, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>***{Come on, Dean, get serious. Clinton will obviously put people on the
>job that he can trust. And since the Bush people do not appear to be
>cynical enough to have even thought about this possibility, there are no
>poll watchers shepherding the mail sacks to their destination. Result: only
>the honesty of Bill Clinton can prevent this outcome. 

You might get a chuckle out of this forum on the WWW:
http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000

Lots of things there about the election, including some statistical
work on the ballot recounts in Florida.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 16:55:50 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:39:27 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: President Gore
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>On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:07:25 -0800, Terry Blanton
><commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>>> ***{Come on, Dean, get serious. Clinton will obviously put people on the
>>> job that he can trust. And since the Bush people do not appear to be
>>> cynical enough to have even thought about this possibility, there are no
>>> poll watchers shepherding the mail sacks to their destination.
>>
>>Maybe, but what did Dubya's Dad do for a living before he was the Prez?
>
>Hmm.  Wasn't he the head of the spook brigade?

***{Yup: head of the CIA. However, to repeat: Clinton is obviously going to
use operatives that he knows he can trust. And since he is the one with the
authority to order that arriving bags of overseas mail on military air
transport aircraft be sequestered and the incoming Florida ballots be
separated out (ostensibly to protect against election fraud, of course :-),
he is in a position to alter those vote totals. Since I have no doubts
about his moral character and willingness to order such an operaiton, the
elements of uncertainty are two:

(1) Will he need to do it--that is, will the "recount" in Florida leave
Bush with a lead?

(2) Assuming he needs to do it, will he think of it?

In my view, there is an excellent chance Bush's lead will disappear due to
the statewide recount alone. The reason: it will be conducted by public
employees, who on average tend to be roughly 80% supporters of the
Democratic Party. Since thousands of people are involved, there is no way
to watch all of them. Result: such recounts virtually always show a shift
in favor of the Democratic candidate, even in cases where the lead held by
the Republican is too large to be overcome.

Such tendencies are exaggerated in cases such as the present one, where
supposedly aggrieved candidates (e.g., Gore) are permitted to pick and
choose particular counties that are to be accorded special treatment (e.g.,
Palm Beach county). The reason: the aggrieved candidate is *always* going
to pick a county that deviated from the mean of its past behavior, in a
direction that favored his opponent. Result: a recount in such an area is
subject to the well-known statistical phenomenon of *regression toward the
mean*. What happens is that, since a larger portion of the distribution of
actual votes lies near the mean than lies away from the mean, the
probability is greater that a mistake, when corrected, will fall closer to
the mean than away from the mean.

The implication: the recount in Palm Beach county, due to fraud and to
regression toward the mean, may put Gore over the top, even *without* the
necessity for Clinton to "adjust" the overseas vote totals.

Result: as I noted previously, there is a strong likelihood that at the end
of this process we are going to discover that Al Gore is the next President
of the United States. Given that he is an anti-business zealot of the worst
kind and that the present U.S. stock market is the most overblown,
unsustainable bubble in the history of the world, there is a very realistic
possibility that the news of his election, or the anticipation of it, will
precipitate the worst crash in history.

Bottom line: I expect Al Gore to be the next President, and I believe this
is a far, far more dangerous situation than most of you realize. While we
can hope that things resolve themselves in the normal, mundane way, that
outcome is by no means guaranteed.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>I suspect there is something called the Military Industrial Complex
>>behind Dubya.
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 17:17:35 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:24:25 -0600
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: 26,000 Ballots Disqualify in Heavily Republican County
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According to an AP story, 26,000 votes in heavily republican Duval county
were disqualified due to the double punching of presidential candidates.
(See
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001111/aponline130619_000.htm fo
r the details.)

Double-punching, of course, is the modern analog of Boss Tweed's hoary
technique of double-marking, wherein the vote counter concealed a lead
pencil tip under a fingernail, and was enabled to double-mark selected
ballots literally under the nose of a poll watcher, resulting in their
disqualification. With double punching, however, the fingernail conceals an
instrument with a sharp point, rather than a pencil tip.

What can be done about such shenanigans? The answer: nothing whatsoever.
Calling for a hand recount just affords an opportunity for more
double-punching, and doing the election over again has that effect as well,
with the guarantee that such activities will *increase* the second time
around, because it will at that point be clear to all that the Presidency
literally hangs in the balance.

Bottom line: I expect Al Gore to be the next President of the U.S., not
because Bush lost, but because he didn't win by a large enough margin to
overcome the institutional bias against the Republican Party. (As long as
government employees do the vote counting and ballots are secret, the
system is guaranteed to be biased in favor of candidates and parties that
support big government.)

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 18:13:11 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:17:09 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Some of Dr. B's comments at his site...

	Illustrations show and egg shape..[I1]... and an angular egg shape
as [I2]
Egg-shaped water storage containers (I1) should replace conventional water
storage containers (I2) because the egg-shape aids water circulation and
prevents the stored water from heating, lying still, and becoming a stale,
dead bacteria - supporting liquid. 

	No further text on this subject such as why there is a reason one
shape would heat or not VS another.

-----  Dr. B comments, again:

	(A1) looks like a vertical spiral-like affair
	(A2) looks like the propeller on a motor boat...

	It seems to me... the (A2) is push or pull, depending on which end
of the boat it is located.

                                 Compare suction propeller (Al) with
pressure propeller (A2). Both props were invented by Austrians.  The
suction prop, or screw, was Invented by Victor Schauberger in the 1930's
and 40's during the Second World War and the pressure prop by Ressel In
1820. Both constructed models of their machines. Both were rejected by
science and technology at first. Ressel's push prop was, after many years
of resistance, finally accepted. Today it is little known that
"propulsion" can be accomplished by pull as well as thrust, and with
advantages.

	Dr. B, again ...
	p by Ressel In 1820. Both constructed models of their
                                 machines. Both were rejected by science
and technology at first. Ressel's push prop was, after many
                                 years of resistance, finally accepted.
Today it is little known that "propulsion" can be accomplished by
                                 pull as well as thrust, and with
advantages.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Schauberger's suction prop has never been
accepted by science. 

                                 The forces acting in the suction turbine
are the exact opposite of those acting in the pressure turbine.
                                 Nature moves everything through
temperature and potential differences, besides the usual, known
                                 gravitational fall, which produces
hydraulic pressure. Power is invited into a vacuum devoid of
                                 resistance rather than forced and pushed
only to react with more pushing and resistance. 

                                 It is to be understood. that there is no
heat input required in any of the implosion systems Indicated;
                                 whereas, in the explosion systems it is
all heat which does the work, and the destruction of the
                                 medium.

                                 The suction propeller pipes accommodate
the medium of air as well as water and have been
                                 experimentally used to produce a
levitating disc (C1) fueled only by air. These discs can one day
                                 replace the polluting, inefficient, fuel
consuming aircraft (C2) of today.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Let us go briefly through the main cycle
of the Implosion Motor as shown in (D1). The fuel medium is
                                 first specifically compressed
centripetally (not centrifugally or hydraulically) through the twisted,
                                 indented pipes and then released through
specially designed nozzles to mechanically react on a
                                 toothed ring (now we are using
centrifugal expansion action). Apparatus as in (D1) allows for the
                                 "complete cycle" of a liquid or gas
medium to "oscillate" or cycle atomically and molecularly from one
                                 state of potency its opposite, within
it's natural metabolic range, without being destroyed. During "the
                                 change of potential" work is performed by
the fuel. This is the way Nature does it. Apparatus as
                                 indicated in (D2), the reciprocating,
combustion motor, allows only for half of the cycle, that is,
                                 expansion pressure only. The regenerating
cycle has to constantly be replaced with more and more
                                 medium like the well known fuels of gas
or oil which are degenerated & depleted of their energy or
                                 changed totally into another substance
worthless to be reused for the same purpose.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Implosion devices make use of centripetal
motion to create conditions of less resistance. The
                                 Propellerless Fish Motor (El), or
instance, is a prototype device which will one day replace the
                                 sluggish and destructive chopping and
flailing of the present boat (E2), ship (E3), and submarine
                                 (E4) propeller. The fish motor uses
anterior suction to remove resistance in front of the device and at
                                 the same time uses the vortexian spiral
to "wedge" and propel the body into the anterior vacuum. In
                                 Nature fish, sharks, dolphins and other
marine life control vortexian processes in a similar way for
                                 their propulsion. These Fish Motor
Devices are silent and will serve to greatly improve submarines.

                                                                                                              






TOP

                                 Implosion devices will allow us to use
and recycle Natural Fuels such as water and air (Fl) instead of
                                 laborious, destructive and polluting
processes of drilling, refining and burning our gas, coal, and oil
                                 (F2). We can do away with damming,
interfering with our natural water flows and damaging the
                                 quality of the water by pressurizing it
through disintegrating turbines at Hydroelectric Power Plants
                                 (F3) for the extraction of its power.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Implosion technology with its operation
based on constructive, exponential reactions will allow us to
                                 replace the deadly nuclear power plants
(G2) with Implosion Reactors (GI) which produce several
                                 times the power with NO radioactive
contamination or by-products!

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 The technique of gaining energy through
the splitting of the atom is an offense against Nature, and
                                 the commitment of our society's future to
total destruction. It is now a known fact -that one can make
                                 use of atomic power through Implosion. We
must explore and develop this constructive avenue! 

                                 Specially designed "Twister Pipes"  for
transportation of water (H1) (and other liquids and gases)
                                 are designed to move mediums in vortexian
fashion and should replace circular straight pipes (H2)
                                 to prevent the molecular disintegration
of the medium which occurs in conventional straight pipes.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Egg-shaped water storage containers (I1)
should replace conventional water storage containers (I2) because the
                                 egg-shape aids water circulation and
prevents the stored water from heating, lying still, and becoming a stale,
dead,
                                 bacteria - supporting liquid.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 In the future, Implosion pumps (J1) which
twist huge volumes of water through, in a funnel fashion
                                 can replace the inefficient, chopping
operation of the centrifugal pumps (J2) of today.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 An immediate solution application of the
vortexian action of Implosion devices is in the treatment,
                                 purification and separation of wastes In
Industrial and Municipal water and liquid mediums. Waste
                                 management and water treatment are a
skyrocketing expense rivaling -fuel and source input
                                 expenses and gobbling more of the profits
yearly. 

                                 The strategy of finding dump sites,
hauling to landfills or just "covering up" must be stopped. This is
                                 no solution. 

                                 There will always be some unwanted
chemical residues, some solid waste, some resulting
                                 by-product mixed in waste and sewer
liquids with our present methods; however, we can now with
                                 Implosion Devices think of handling them
chemically &emdash; molecularly transmuting and
                                 transforming them to nonhazardous
materials while in-line, in process! 

                                 By copying the cycloidal, vortex action
which Nature uses for it's purification processes, vortex
                                 purification devices have already proven
effective to replace chemical municipal waste treatment
                                 plants (K2). We will have a later issue
of these success stories and devices.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                


TOP

                                 A Turbulent Funnel Water Purifier (Kl) is
a purification and separation device. This funnel, consisting
                                 of a large container shaped like half an
egg, has a perforated pipe several meters long attached to its
                                 bottom. A liquid medium laden with solids
or chemicals of different density can be separated by
                                 swishing through this device. 

                                 The solids will coagulate into egg shaped
forms, gather in the middle shaft and can be led off. The
                                 egg-shaped solids will be found to
contain no more moisture. Such devices work for mechanical and
                                 molecular separation by subjecting the
medium to controlled vortex action.

                                 Experimental work in Implosion Technology
has proven that we can create substances by a
                                 constructive hyperbolic process of
synthesis. The synthesis of hydrocarbons suitable for fuels has
                                 been accomplished! Low quality raw
materials can be enriched to create products with a high energy
                                 content. Low grade oil, iron ore or coal
can be upgraded by subjecting them to centripetal devices
                                 such as shown in (LI). Even "highly
potent water" has obtained traces of a petroleum-like product in
                                 these apparatus. When this water was
sprayed into a cylinder and a quantity of natural oxygen added,
                                 a light pressure created by a descending
piston is sufficient to transform the highly potent water into
                                 a gas! 

                                 We have the beginning to create our fuels
to solve the problems of deforestation for fuel and the
                                 digging, drilling, scarring and
disturbance of our present mining techniques. (L2)

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Vortexian action has been applied to
pollution control devices such as chimneys (Ml) and chambers
                                 for the separation of gases from liquids
or from other gases. For example, there is a patent today for
                                 the separation of sulfur dioxide from
exhaust gases. The application of such devices can stop the
                                 acid rain which is such a pollution
problem of industrial coal burning (M2). These devices can purify
                                 the exhausts on motor vehicles and
heating installations.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 Agriculture is an area which will see
benefits of Implosion Technology. Farmers have been racing
                                 against the rapid evolution of crop pests
and the rapid disintegration of soil and water fertility
                                 because of the chemical forming methods
(N2) presently employed. We can break the artificial
                                 fertilizer and pesticide habit with
Implosion Techniques. 

                                 Chemicals are not necessary - neither for
fertilizer or a war against pests and disease, if certain
                                 methods of water and soil treatments,
(N1) with an awareness of vortexian principles, are observed
                                 instead.

                                                                                                              


TOP

                                 With the use of specially designed
implements (O1) (P1) to alter conventional plows (O2) and tillers
                                 (P2). farmers can treat their soils to
the vortexian benefits of the soil creatures such as the mole and
                                 the earthworm. They can reverse the upset
occurring in the layers of our soil and stop the dehydration
                                 and topsoil erosion problems. For every
ton of grain American farmers produced last year, they lost
                                 six tons of their topsoil!

	Here at the end.....

	Dr. B shows a harrow.... and calls it a plow.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, thomas malloy wrote:

> Greetings fellow Vortexians;
> 
> I listened to Dr. Walter Baumgartner speak at the Inter Tesla Soc 
> meeting in 1994. He had lots of pretty pictures of nifty machines 
> that were going to do all sorts of marvelous things. The question is 
> does he have any hardware? At the time, he was planning on publishing 
> a book. This website offers a subscription to a newsletter, I'm going 
> to search the site looking for an email address and see if he has any 
> working machines. His URL is http://www.vortexscience.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 20:04:02 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:46:29 -0600
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> With the Bush margin down to a bit more than 300 votes in Florida, I would
> say that a Gore presidency is now rather likely. The reason: there are some
> 2500 overseas military ballots that are in transit,

What I want to know, in no political jargon (BS) is a straight forward,
right between the beady blue eyes explanation of this:

There were 15,000 votes thrown out of Palm Beach in 1996, and no one
complained. Now, 19,000 are thrown out for the same reason, and people
are screaming "Revote! Revote!" NO REVOTE! You people got your revote by
voting twice. And if you have a revote, there will be voter
contamination. People who voted for Nader, etc., will know that their
guy won't win by any chance in hell, and will vote for one candidate or
the other. The outcome cheats the other states, and the other rightful
citizens of the United States.

When you vote, as when you do anything important, you look at the ballot
or form VERY CAREFULLY. If people aren't willing to ask for help, or
look very carefully, and just vote haphazardly, then they may need to
rethink whether or not they possess the intelligence capacity necessary
for them to have the right to vote. In short, don't screw with the rest
of us, who are trying to do things right. If on the other hand they just
made an honest mistake, I am truly sorry, I wish there was a way to fix
things. But there is no way to correct it. It sucks, yes, but that is
the way of things.

If this offends anyone here, I'm sorry. I am using my 1st amendment
rights. And the tone is less cordial than I would normally use because I
am tired of this damned abomination of an election. In truth, both
parties are beginning to leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

Regards,
--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 20:19:38 2000
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Message-ID: <20001112031719.9346.qmail nwcst323.netaddress.usa.net>
Date: 11 Nov 00 22:17:19 EST
From: Horace <horacex usa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: MAG simulation
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Fellow Researchers,

Could you Please perform a magnetic simulation of the following setup if
anyone of you has an access to good Magnetic Simulator software.
( 2D animated simulation of the B field would be sufficient )

Assume:
d1 =3D 2 * d2
y3 =3D 2 * y1
All elements are Ideal, and are aligned on their major symmetry axes
(cylindrical PM and solenoid are coaxial)

PM movement along Y-axis from -infinity (ini.current I=3D0) to +infinity.=

Solenoid stationary.
[see details in the attached drawing]

This setup is quite elementary and anyone proficient with good Magnetic
Simulation software should be able to simulate it without much effort.

Please email the simulation directly to me if the list will not allow
sufficently large files (usualy 40KB limit)


Thank you in advance,
Horace






=2E,


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 20:42:05 2000
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:21:56 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: About....Re: OFF TOPIC A mind-linked terrestrial species
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	woo ooooo oooo oooo


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 11 22:51:18 2000
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Bill Beaty wrote:
>Here are a bunch of other (ahem) adult toys:
>
>  http://www.amasci.com/amateur/toys1.html

Hi Bill,

I've always considered your entire website to be one of the largest toyboxes
I've ever seen.  Keep fillin' it up!  If you grew a big enough beard (not a
bushy one though), I would mistake you for Santa. ;)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: CFRL English News No.18
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:08:00 -0800
From: "Hideo Kozima," <cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu>
To: ���� �p�v <cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu>

CFRL English News No. 18 (November 10, 2000)
� Cold Fusion Research Laboratory Prof. Hideo Kozima.

   This is CFRL News (in English) No. 18 translated from Japanese
version
published for friend researchers of Cold Fusion Research Laboratory
directed
by Dr. H. Kozima in Portland State University. The e-mail address in PSU
is
cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu.
   In this issue, there are following articles. 1) A new paper has been
submitted to Fusion Technology. 2) JCF2 was held in Sapporo, Japan. 3)
RCCNT8 was held in Sochi, Russia. An article "A message to Cold Fusion
(3)"
by Prof. T. Sawada appeared in the Japanese version is not included in
this
English version because its English translation is not submitted yet nor
preceding parts (1) and (2).

1)  H. Kozima, J. Warner, G. Goddard and J. Dash, "Reality of "the
Super-nuclear Interaction" in Metal Hydrides and Deuterides �|
Verification
by Numerical Calculations for PdH(D)" (submitted to Fusion Technology)
 This paper is the successor of the previous paper (News No. 17, article
1)
and investigate concretely a nuclear interaction between two lattice
nuclei
mediated by occluded hydrogen isotopes using experimental data about
hydrogen wavefunctions of a proton and deuteron in transition metals.

2) JCF2 (The Second Meeting of Japan CF-Research Association), October
21-
22, Sapporo, Japan.
 The Second Meeting of JCF was held and 28 papers were presented.
Abstracts
of these papers can be seen in the following web-page:
http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/PAPER.HTML
And also the OHP transparencies can be seen in the following web-page:
http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/DIST.HTML
Following paper by us was presented by M. Ohta of Osaka University.
JCF2-13
M. Ohta, H. Kozima, M. Fujii, K. Arai and H. Kudoh, "Possible
Explanation of
He-4 Production in Pd/D_{2} System by TNCF Model"
Abstract of this paper can also be read in the above web-page.

3) RCCNTCE8 (8-th Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation of
Chemical Elements) Dagomus, Sochi, October 4 - 11, 2000.
   The Russian Conference, has been held almost annually for these
several
years, was held this year by the name written above. 38 papers had been
submitted as written in the Brochure and almost of them were presented
at
the Conference.
   The Brochure includes Abstracts of papers in English and in Russian
except some with only in Russian. It seems possible to obtain the
Brochure
from Yu.N. Bazhutov or I.V. Goryachev (E-mail address: gnedenko kiae.ru)
by
4.5 rubles (written in the back cover).
   More details of this Conference will be introduced in the next News
No.
19.

--------------------------------------------------
Visiting Professor of Physics at Portland State University
Professor Emeritus at Shizuoka University
Dr. Hideo Kozima
Office:
 Physics Department, PSU,
P.O. Box 751, Portland, Oregon 97207-0751
Tel. 503-725-4222, Fax. 503-725-3888
E-mail. cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu
Home:
Ione Plaza #712, 1717 Park Av., Portland, Oregon 97201
Tel. 503-223-8074
CFRL web-site; www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~kunihito/cf-lab/index.html
------------------------------------------------------

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You could do a web search and get a free demo of Q-field; simple and fast.
There are lots of others available too.

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 04:16:32 2000
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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:20:43 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: MAG simulation
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--============_-1238090853==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Fellow Researchers,
>
>Could you Please perform a magnetic simulation of the following setup if
>anyone of you has an access to good Magnetic Simulator software.
>( 2D animated simulation of the B field would be sufficient )
>
>Assume:
>d1 = 2 * d2
>y3 = 2 * y1
>All elements are Ideal, and are aligned on their major symmetry axes
>(cylindrical PM and solenoid are coaxial)
>
>PM movement along Y-axis from -infinity (ini.current I=0) to +infinity.
>Solenoid stationary.
>[see details in the attached drawing]
>
>This setup is quite elementary and anyone proficient with good Magnetic
>Simulation software should be able to simulate it without much effort.
>
>Please email the simulation directly to me if the list will not allow
>sufficently large files (usualy 40KB limit)
>
>
>Thank you in advance,
>Horace
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.,
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
>Attachment converted: Hard Disk:PMintoSC.pdf (PDF /CARO) (000183AF)



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Regards,

Horace Heffner          



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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:07:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: What's New, Mallove, Chubb, and "Michael" Swartz
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At 1:55 PM 11/10/0, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: What's New for Nov 10, 2000
>Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:10:52 -0500 (EST)
>From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
>To: aki ix.netcom.com
>
>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 10 Nov 00   Washington, DC
>
>1. COLD FUSION: CONFERENCES HELD, PATENT REJECTED.  The American
>Nuclear Society is holding an embarrassing session on cold-fusion
>at its meeting next week in Washington.  Capitalizing on the
>presence of so many fanciful minds, the new-age Integrity
>Research Institute (WN 5 Mar 99) holds its free-energy conference
>two days later.  A likely topic of discussion is last Wednesday's
>ruling by a Circuit Court of Appeals to reject the appeal of
>Michael Swartz for a cold-fusion patent on the grounds of "lack


Could this be Mitchell Swartz and not Michael Swartz?


>of operability."  The Court ruled that the patent didn't convince
>sensible people that the idea could work.  But, not everybody
>falls into that category.  Testifying for Swartz were two invited
>speakers at the IRI conference - Eugene Mallove and Scott Chubb.
[snip]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Sorry, I accidentally replied to Horace Smith's post, sending his attachment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 10:17 PM 11/11/0, Horace wrote:
[snip]
>Thank you in advance,
>Horace

Please note that this Horace is not me.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 10:18:03 2000
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>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: What's New for Nov 10, 2000
>Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:10:52 -0500 (EST)
>From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
>To: aki ix.netcom.com
>
>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 10 Nov 00   Washington, DC
>
>1. COLD FUSION: CONFERENCES HELD, PATENT REJECTED.  The American
>Nuclear Society is holding an embarrassing session on cold-fusion
>at its meeting next week in Washington.

Embarrassing to whom? The narrowminded? The defenders of the old 
paradigm? The oil and coal interests?


>  Capitalizing on the
>presence of so many fanciful minds, the new-age Integrity
>Research Institute (WN 5 Mar 99) holds its free-energy conference
>two days later.

I wonder if IRI is posting a list of the speakers and topics on their website?

>A likely topic of discussion is last Wednesday's
>ruling by a Circuit Court of Appeals to reject the appeal of
>Michael Swartz for a cold-fusion patent on the grounds of "lack
>of operability."


The same Michael Swartz, Vortexian? I would be interested in reading 
the inconclusive evidence.

>The Court ruled that the patent didn't convince
>sensible people that the idea could work.  But, not everybody
>falls into that category.

Obviously Michael Swartz falls into the category of nonsensible 
people. One wonders what kind of results would motivate him to spend 
what is certainly a fair sum on not only filing this patent, but then 
fighting the PTO in court? This also makes one wonder if this is 
evidence of FE suppression?


>Testifying for Swartz were two invited
>speakers at the IRI conference - Eugene Mallove and Scott Chubb.

Obviously coconspirators with Swartz.

I'm disappointed that none of you responded to my post about doing a 
knock off on the TRW ad featuring Robert Parks making a fool of 
himself.


>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 10:22:16 2000
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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:00:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: President Gore
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>> With the Bush margin down to a bit more than 300 votes in Florida, I would
>> say that a Gore presidency is now rather likely. The reason: there are some
>> 2500 overseas military ballots that are in transit,
>
>What I want to know, in no political jargon (BS) is a straight forward,
>right between the beady blue eyes explanation of this:
>
>There were 15,000 votes thrown out of Palm Beach in 1996, and no one
>complained. Now, 19,000 are thrown out for the same reason, and people
>are screaming "Revote! Revote!" NO REVOTE! You people got your revote by
>voting twice. And if you have a revote, there will be voter
>contamination. People who voted for Nader, etc., will know that their
>guy won't win by any chance in hell, and will vote for one candidate or
>the other. The outcome cheats the other states, and the other rightful
>citizens of the United States.
>
>When you vote, as when you do anything important, you look at the ballot
>or form VERY CAREFULLY. If people aren't willing to ask for help, or
>look very carefully, and just vote haphazardly, then they may need to
>rethink whether or not they possess the intelligence capacity necessary
>for them to have the right to vote. In short, don't screw with the rest
>of us, who are trying to do things right. If on the other hand they just
>made an honest mistake, I am truly sorry, I wish there was a way to fix
>things. But there is no way to correct it. It sucks, yes, but that is
>the way of things.
>
>If this offends anyone here, I'm sorry. I am using my 1st amendment
>rights. And the tone is less cordial than I would normally use because I
>am tired of this damned abomination of an election. In truth, both
>parties are beginning to leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

***{And well they should. They are in utter agreement that we are serfs who
have no inalienable rights--which means: like the kings of old, they can
rob, murder, oppress, or imprison us, whenever they decide it is "in the
public interest." Result: whichever party is in office, we are guaranteed
that thousands of new laws and regulations will be passed each year, doing
just that. In matters of substance--i.e., the matter of whether we have any
rights--America has become a one-party totalitarian state and, as such,
deserves the hatred and loathing of any person who supports the principles
on which the country was originally founded. It is no longer possible to
love what America was, without despising what she has become. --MJ}***

>
>Regards,
>--Kyle R. Mcallister



________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 10:32:49 2000
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From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Message from the Next President of the United States
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:32:06 -0800
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> >MESSAGE FROM THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
 >
 >To the American People....
 >
 >With the mandate of the people behind me, I accept the challenge to work
on
 >your behalf for the next four years, to spend more money than I ever
 >promised, to continue to feed the bankers billions of dollars of interest
on
 >the national debt via the Federal Reserve Bank and its collection agency,
the
 >Internal Revenue Service, so that you have to work five months of every
year
 >just to pay taxes. Remember, if we lower taxes and that spurs the economy,
 >then the federal government still collects more money, so we always win
and
 >you always lose.
 >
 >I will launch a phony war during my four years to show foreign nations
that
 >we can "kick ass," and of course, to test our new weapons and show them
off
 >as scare tactics around the globe. And when we "win" the war without
American
 >casualties, it will create a legacy for my Presidential library.
 >
 >I will work to ensure our scientists have phony jobs launching space
 >satellites and creating meaningless space stations.
 >
 >I will put more teachers in the classroom as a way of reducing the
 >unemployment rate and I'll rig the scholastic tests so your kids appear to
do
 >better.
 >
 >I will oppose generic drugs so that the drug companies have more money to
 >conduct research to create even more drugs that are ineffective, cause
side
 >effects and keep our hospital beds full, so that more doctors and nurses
have
 >jobs. I will rid the nation of dangerous herbal products like ginseng,
 >ginkgo, and garlic capsules that have been proven to be ineffective and
may
 >be dangerous. I will implement a prescription drug program for seniors so
 >they can die sooner from drug side effects, that now needlessly kill 274
 >Americans every day.
 >
 >I will raid any government stash of money and use it for any purpose,
 >regardless of what it was intended for. I will continue to raid the Social
 >Security system and declare our government has a surplus when it doesn't.
 >
 >I will uphold the honor of the Presidency. I won't be chasing any girls
 >around the oval office. In the spirit of the times, I will propose the
"Oval
 >Office Cam," where citizens of the USA can look right in on all the events
at
 >the White House, including the breakfast room and the Lincoln bedroom.
 >
 >We will create a legacy, regardless of reality. We will do more to promote
 >the status quo than previous administrations, and we will raise the
minimum
 >wage to $15 an hour, so you can pay $8 for a fast-food hamburger and $9
for a
 >box of cereal.
 >
 >We will continue to manipulate government statistics, so that my
Presidency
 >will go down in the record books as a great Presidency. And I owe it all
to
 >you, the citizens of the United States. Thank you for this vote of
 >confidence."
 >
 >Your President: _________________  (To be filled in soon)
> >November 9, 2000
> >
> >Bill Sardi writes from Diamond Bar, California.

 Have a great day

 Richard James, McDonald

 ICQ 259224
 Fire Talk 30630

 http://www.state-citizen.org
 BBS 818-888-9882
 (818) 703-5037 voice

 Citizens Hour
 host by Crusade Radio
 3pm to 4pm
 Monday thru Thursday
 www.angelfire.com/journal/crusaderadio



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 14:32:51 2000
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lepton Coupling to a Proton/Deuteron
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:28:58 -0800
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Based on the way that a Neutron decays to a Proton, Electron,
and Antineutrino, I can't see how an Electron can get in close
to a Proton or Deuteron.

OTOH, a Light Lepton (LL-)might:

Force Centrifugal = mv^2/R =  (Eo+Eb)c^2/R  =  kq^2/R^2

Thus R = kq^2/[(Eo+Eb)c^2]

(where Eo is the lepton rest energy and Eb is it's binding energy)

For R = 2.81 Fermi (2.81E-15 meters,the radius of the electron string-circle):

(Eo+Eb)c^2 = 8.19E-14 joules, the rest energy of the electron string-circle.
 
Then Potential, V = kq/2R = 1.44E-9/(2*2.81E-15) = 255 Kev,
which makes the LL- in a relativistic state act like a non-relativistic electron
surrounding the Proton or Deuteron to neutralize the coulomb barrier and
allow "QM Tunneling".

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 20:39:53 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
Message-ID: <6d.b551807.2740c9f4 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:37:08 EST
Subject: Help me send information bomb to stop suppression
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi all, 
I know everyone will not do it, I wish they would, but I want to ask everyone 
to please go to my web site and print out a hard copy of all the information 
on my site if possible. At least the theory and pictures and young scientist 
information. Also send this post with the web addresses to every friend, 
contact, etc. not on the different lists. Also ask them to do the same, etc., 
etc., etc., etc., so that this information can't be suppressed. A forward or 
copy of this will do. Thank you so much, this is for all of us. 
Best regards,
Butch LaFonte
http://members.aol.com/vettenrr/LaFonteResearch.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 22:02:40 2000
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Subject: Re: Lepton Coupling to a Proton/Deuteron
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Fredrick Spaber Wrote;

>Based on the way that a Neutron decays to a Proton, Electron,
>
>
>Then Potential, V = kq/2R = 1.44E-9/(2*2.81E-15) = 255 Kev,
>which makes the LL- in a relativistic state act like a 
>non-relativistic electron
>surrounding the Proton or Deuteron to neutralize the coulomb barrier and
>allow "QM Tunneling".


Your frequent posts speculating on Light Leptons make me wonder If I 
wanted to transmutate one element into another would it be possible 
to generate a LL of a specific frequency which would cause a neuton 
to change into a protron?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 12 22:10:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:15:24 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, JNaudin509@aol.com
Subject: Mithernetha  Address of E mail
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	Dear All,

	Is there an E mail for either the Methernitha group or for Baumann
or Hasler ?  Spelling may be wrong.

	Please.

				John Schnurer

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Hi,

Try via this website:

http://www.methernitha.com/

Rgds

Robert Hoffmann

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear All,
>
>         Is there an E mail for either the Methernitha group or for Baumann
> or Hasler ?  Spelling may be wrong.
>
>         Please.
>
>                                 John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 00:58:04 2000
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	Dear Robeert,

	I got that... but it does not go to a person ... I am trying to
reach a person.   I tried sysop and postmaster ... no dice..

On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Robert Hoffmann wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Try via this website:
> 
> http://www.methernitha.com/
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Robert Hoffmann
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         Dear All,
> >
> >         Is there an E mail for either the Methernitha group or for Baumann
> > or Hasler ?  Spelling may be wrong.
> >
> >         Please.
> >
> >                                 John Schnurer
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 01:02:32 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: True... yes.... ?does anyone have an E mail to a person 
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	Dear Folks,


	Is there any E mail to person at Methernitha?

	If you go to this site there is an explanation of Methernitha  by
Paul E Potter.

	Is this endorsed by the folks at the comune who use this power to
live on?

	Or is this a guess?

	Does anyone know?






chttp://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/report99.htm



http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/index.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 01:05:13 2000
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:03:13 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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>	Dear All,
>
>	Is there an E mail for either the Methernitha group or for Baumann
>or Hasler ?  Spelling may be wrong.
>
>	Please.
>
>				John Schnurer


I have a snail mail address. It is on a letter saying that they were 
not interested in selling either the machine or the technology.

Thomas Malloy


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 01:55:43 2000
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November 13, 2,000

Thomas Malloy wrote:
>>From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org
>>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 10 Nov 00   Washington, DC
>>1. COLD FUSION: CONFERENCES HELD, PATENT REJECTED.  The American
>>Nuclear Society is holding an embarrassing session on cold-fusion at its meeting
next week in Washington.

> Embarrassing to whom? The narrowminded? The defenders of the old
> paradigm? The oil and coal interests?

Park, in his voodoo stance on CF,  means embarrassing to the ANS for containing
some CF presentations.

For the most part, I take the ANS CF segment to be a repeat of the ICCF-8
presentations plus whatever progress that has transpired since then. This is why I
chose not to attend, although it is a first for ANS, apart from the APS inclusion
a few years ago. Perhaps Jed will have great news to report on the event.

I believe Michael Swartz is Mitchell Swartz of Cold Fusion Times.
Park's What's New item on the patent court news seems to help explain why Mitchell
Swartz did not appear at the ICCF-8 to make a presentation as initially listed.

> >A likely topic of discussion is last Wednesday's
> >ruling by a Circuit Court of Appeals to reject the appeal of
> >Michael Swartz for a cold-fusion patent on the grounds of "lack
> >of operability."
> The same Michael Swartz, Vortexian? I would be interested in reading
> the inconclusive evidence.
> >The Court ruled that the patent didn't convince
> >sensible people that the idea could work.  But, not everybody
> >falls into that category.
> Obviously Michael Swartz falls into the category of nonsensible
> people. One wonders what kind of results would motivate him to spend
> what is certainly a fair sum on not only filing this patent, but then
> fighting the PTO in court? This also makes one wonder if this is
> evidence of FE suppression?
> >Testifying for Swartz were two invited
> >speakers at the IRI conference - Eugene Mallove and Scott Chubb.
> Obviously co-conspirators with Swartz.

This is speculation. Tom's noting of "fair sum" for patent filing and pursuit in
court, along with Mallove's presence in court hints to a possible involvement of
his New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) and Ed Wall's untimely and unfortunate
resignation from the laboratory.
Scott Chubb is associated with his uncle's CF business so I do not know in what
capacity he made the court appearance, Navy or Uncle (Talbot, not Sam). : )
Too sad that so much of CF has gone underground for one reason or another.

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 03:03:16 2000
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Subject: Re: Lepton Coupling to a Proton/Deuteron
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:58:47 -0800
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Lepton Coupling to a Proton/Deuteron

Thomas Malloy wrote:


> 
> Fredrick Spaber Wrote;
> 
> >Based on the way that a Neutron decays to a Proton, Electron,
> >
> >
> >Then Potential, V = kq/2R = 1.44E-9/(2*2.81E-15) = 255 Kev,
> >which makes the LL- in a relativistic state act like a 
> >non-relativistic electron
> >surrounding the Proton or Deuteron to neutralize the coulomb barrier and
> >allow "QM Tunneling".
> 
> 
> Your frequent posts speculating on Light Leptons make me wonder If I 
> wanted to transmutate one element into another would it be possible 
> to generate a LL of a specific frequency which would cause a neuton 
> to change into a protron?

The Light Lepton Pair (if they are created) should be quantized in intergral
multiples of n* 0.396 ev.

A free Neutron automatically decays into a Proton plus an Electron and
an Antineutrino. Otherwise, in a Radioactive Nucleus, such as Tritium,
Beta-Antineutrino decay is common. (T --> He3 + electron and antineutrino)
which is changing a neutron into a proton.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 07:02:47 2000
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Subject: JCF-2 viewgraphs on line
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Thank you Akira for pointing out that the JCF actually did post the JCF2 
viewgraphs, just like they said they would. See:

http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/DIST.HTML

Unfortunately, there is nothing on papers 16 and 17, from Mitsubishi, which 
is what I really wanted to see. Perhaps something will show up later on, 
like the ballots in Florida.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 07:13:51 2000
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Akira wrote:

>I believe Michael Swartz is Mitchell Swartz of Cold Fusion Times.

He is. Park never gets anything right. Names, facts, dates - they are all 
meaningless to this cold fusion war criminal Park.

>Park's What's New item on the patent court news seems to help explain why 
>Mitchell
>Swartz did not appear at the ICCF-8 to make a presentation as initially 
>listed.

One thing had nothing to do with the other, though I do know that Mitch 
has spent enormous time and energy on his Patent work. 


>
>This is speculation. Tom's noting of "fair sum" for patent filing and 
>pursuit in
>court, along with Mallove's presence in court hints to a possible 
>involvement of
>his New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) and Ed Wall's untimely and 
>unfortunate
>resignation from the laboratory.

What???   I merely filed and Amicus Brief with the court on behalf of 
Mitch, as I was glad to do. Ed Wall's departure from NERL was his own 
choice and had nothing whatsoever to do with patent issues in the Swartz 
case!!!  NERL paid for Ed Wall's instructional videos so that he could 
take an examine to be a patent agent. That is all.

>Scott Chubb is associated with his uncle's CF business so I do not know in 
>what
>capacity he made the court appearance, Navy or Uncle (Talbot, not Sam). : )
>Too sad that so much of CF has gone underground for one reason or another.
>
>-AK-


Gene Mallove
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 09:58:30 2000
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From: erev4 yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:54:02 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
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Scott Little wrote

>I have explored a wide range of glow appearances from barely sparking
>(purple) to roaring incandescence.  The condition is changed via the cell
>voltage with the lowest action being around 80-100 volts and the highest
>tolerable action being around 220 volts in my system.  Higher voltages than
>that produced such severe electrical noise that my power analyzer couldn't
>cope with it.   You can see the results of a scan of these conditions at:

>http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html

    The Oct. Mizuno paper reads as if the effect is Argon based.
    (I.e., the heat generation  is inside the plasma acting from Ar-H, not 
related to the cathode, other than H.)

   This, from the paper, gives no clue about argon.

   'The electrolyte solution is prepared with filtered Milli-Q pure distilled
water. It is used after being redistilled in quartz glass.' 

   This does ...

   'No excess heat was generated at the beginning of plasma electrolysis even
if ... 

However, after plasma electrolysis for more than several hundred seconds ...'

   One can infer a buildup of a needed element inside the plasma. That happens
in the sonoluminescence bubble.  (All the noble gases are mentioned in sono.)
Many sono experiments failed because there was no 'suitable host' (e.g. argon)
in the solution.

   The tell tale color (within the plasma incandescence) is then based on 
sono blue. 

   John N

    Here are some sono references. There are now 4 linked effects
plus a number of isolated experiments with abnormal 1s1 ions.

Gases that do 
<a href="http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/~ne201/1995/levinson/sonolum.html">
not work </a> to emit light under sonoluminescence conditions are oxygen,
nitrogen, compressed air. Noble gases  
<A href="http://www-phys.llnl.gov/N_Div/sonolum/">do work.</a>
It is also asserted that
<a href="http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/chao-dyn/9605003">the noble gas impurity</a>
ultimately is the dominant component of the bubble and therefore totally
responsible for stability and light emission. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 09:58:30 2000
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From: erev4 yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:54:06 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Iwamura electrolyte experiment
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  Excerpted from a Jed Rothwell -  Edmund Storms discussion

>At this time, we do no know what the NAS looks like or what arrangement of
>atoms is required.

   ??????

   Don't you think the (reliable) Iwamura experiments were designed to isolate
(as much as possible) the chemical reaction structures Pd-D + D and Pd-D2 + D2? 
Doesn't this produce an understanding of the nuclear active structure? 

    John N

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 09:59:35 2000
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Message-ID: <3A102CD1.83AD9FB8 bellsouth.net>
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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HLafonte aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> I know everyone will not do it, I wish they would, but I want to ask everyone
> to please go to my web site and print out a hard copy of all the information
> on my site if possible. At least the theory and pictures and young scientist
> information. Also send this post with the web addresses to every friend,
> contact, etc. not on the different lists. Also ask them to do the same, etc.,
> etc., etc., etc., so that this information can't be suppressed. A forward or
> copy of this will do. Thank you so much, this is for all of us.
> Best regards,
> Butch LaFonte

Your entire web site is only 802 kbytes.  I saved it on my hard
drive and our secure server.  Would you like a CD ROM copy of
it?  Or, actually, it'll fit on a diskette.

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 12:05:46 2000
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http://cartoons.wnd.com/wnd/html/camp2000/ballot.html


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Subject: Off Topic: Non-citizens to Choose Next President Says U.S. Border  Control
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Monday, 13-Nov-00 11:52:30

Non-citizens to Choose Next President Says U.S. Border Control
        THIS MESSAGE POSTED TO APFN MESSAGE BOARD:
        http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb1075995

        Source:
        PR Newswire
        http://www.prnewswire.com/

        Non-citizens to Choose Next President Says U.S. Border Control

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-09
-2000/0001362096&EDATE=

        MCLEAN, Va., Nov. 9 /PRNewswire -

"Whichever candidate wins the electoral vote in Florida
and goes on to become President of the United States
will have won his margin of victory by the votes of non-citizens
and illegal aliens, voting in mass numbers in South Florida,"
charged Edward Nelson, President, U.S. Border Control.

"We have asked legal counsel for U.S. Border Control to
review the Florida election results carefully to
determine how a challenge can be made to the votes cast
in certain Florida precincts in order to document once
and for all the scope of voting by non-citizens."

"Thanks to the National Voter Registration Act,
commonly known as the Motor-Voter law, millions of
non-citizens and illegal aliens are being invited to
register to vote as they apply for their driver's
licenses or welfare benefits."

"In Florida, as in most other states, the Motor Vehicle
Department has been advised not to ask if applicants
are citizens because this would somehow violate their
civil rights. As a consequence, this 'don't ask --
don't tell' policy is wittingly or unwittingly handing
out voter registration cards to tens of thousands of
ineligible voters, more than enough to effect the
results of a close election."

"Our efforts have absolutely nothing to do with helping
one candidate or another win the election as we have no
idea whom the non-citizens may have favored. Our
interest is in defending the voting rights of American
citizens whose votes are being canceled out by
non-citizens."

Mr. Nelson continued: "We believe that the national
average for non- citizen voting is about 2-4 percent
with it spiking up to 10-15 percent in places like Dade
County, Florida, and in major cities that have large
current immigrant populations."

USBC Legal Counsel William J. Olson stated, "Arizona
Congressman Bob Stump (R-AZ-3) has introduced
legislation to repeal the Motor-Voter law as the best
way to stop the process of registering non-citizens."
(H.R. 38, 106th Congress)

In 1996, the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant
Responsibility Act" was enacted, confirming expressly
what everyone already knew, that it was illegal for
non-citizens to vote and made voting by non-citizens an
offense punishable by deportation. Unfortunately,
Congress failed to provide a mechanism by which state
and local election officials could check on citizenship
so that the law could be enforced.

A year later, Rep. Steve Horn (R-CA-38), observing a
rapid increase in non-citizen voting, introduced the
Voter Eligibility Verification Act that would have
given voter registrars the ability to eliminate
non-citizen voting. Although the bill was voted upon
and received a majority of the votes cast, the Rules
under which is was brought to the House floor required
a two-thirds majority and so it failed to pass. (H.R.
1428, 105th Congress) (Voter Eligibility Verification
Pilot Program Act of 1998, H.R. 3485, 105th Congress.)

Mr. Nelson said, "Unless American citizens don't mind
the fact that their votes are being canceled out by the
votes of illegal aliens and resident aliens, they
should demand the immediate passage of both of these
bills (motor-voter repeal and voter eligibility
verification act)."

Additional information relevant to these issues follows:

Motor-Voter Fraud

According to the Wall Street Journal, "voter fraud has
become a bigger problem since the 1993 federal Motor
Voter law required states to allow people to register
to vote when they get a driver's license; 47 states
don't require any proof of U.S. residence for
enrollment. Motor Voter has added some eight million
people to the rolls...."

John Fund's Political Diary, Wall Street Journal,
10/23/00.

The Changing Florida Electorate

Data provided by the Florida Secretary of State
demonstrate the efficiency of the Motor Voter Law in
registering new voters. From 6.56 million registered
voters in 1994, to 8.22 million voters in 1998, an
increase of 25 percent.

At the same time, these data show more than a six-fold
increase in the number of "other race" registered
voters, from under 100,000 to over 650,000. (Florida's
Registered voter data are reported in categories of
white, black, and other -- including primarily
Hispanic, but also Native American, Asian, and others
-- with the category race not identified being added in
1996).

A comparison between the rate of growth of "other race"
versus "white, black and unidentified race" voters
during this four year period is even more stark. While
"other race" voters increased 660 percent, 39 times
faster than "white, black, and unidentified" race
voters which increased only 17 percent.

No one knows how many of the 550,000 new "other race"
voters were newly naturalized citizens under the
"Citizenship USA" program of the Immigration and
Naturalization Program, Al Gore's program to add more
than 1 million immigrants to the U.S. voter roles in
1996. Indeed, Miami, Florida was one of the five cities
specially targeted for "Citizenship USA."

  On the other hand, no one knows how many of these same
  voters are not citizens at all, but non-citizens and
  even illegal aliens who were nevertheless were invited
  to register to vote by Florida motor vehicle and
  welfare state employees doing what they were required
  to do under the federal Motor Voter law.

  Source: Florida Secretary of State's office
  http://election.dos.state.fl.us/voterreg/vrstats.shtml

  Deluge of Legal and Illegal Immigrants

  * INS has naturalized more than 1.7 million resident
  aliens in the past two years.

  * 463,060 in GFY 1998

  * 872,427 in GFY 1999

  * 898,315 in GFY 2000

  * INS naturalized 1,044,869 new citizens in 1996

  * No fingerprint checks on 180,000 of the applicants

  * 80,000 had criminal records; 6,300 "had committed
  serious crimes."

  * Number of resident aliens naturalized in 1990s
  increased four-fold over 1970s

  * Since 1994, 1.6 million aliens have been naturalized
  in California alone

  * Voter registration by Latinos has doubled in
  California since 1994

  * 1 million new Latino voters have registered in
  California since 1990

  * Chicago INS office holding 2 swearing-in ceremonies a
  day to accommodate the crush of newly minted citizens
  -- 85,000 in Illinois in past two years

  * Number of resident aliens naturalized annually in
  Washington State has increased five-fold since 1991

  Walter Robinson, "Immigrant Voter Surge Seen Aiding
  Gore," Boston Globe, 11/4/2000, p. A01

  Politicization of Immigration and Naturalization
  Service ("INS")

  * INS Deputy Commissioner Chris Sale pressured by
  National Performance Review (Al Gore's vehicle for
  Reinventing Government) "to delegate broad authority to
  the managers in "New York, Chicago, Miami, San
  Francisco and Los Angeles. NPR official Doug Farbrother
  sent Mr. Sale a fax reiterating how important this
  delegation was in order "to get the results the Vice
  President wants. "In the fax he also commented, "I need
  you or Doris (Meissner) to sign something like the
  attached," referring to a memo giving those INS
  district directors "full authority to waive, suspend,
  or deviate from DOJ and INS nonstatutory policies,
  regulations, and procedures provided you operate within
  the confines of the law."

  * On March 21, Elaine Kamarck in the Vice President's
  office sent an e- mail to Farbrother saying, "THE
  PRESIDENT IS SICK OF THIS AND WANTS

  ACTION. IF NOTHING MOVES TODAY WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE SOME
  PRETTY DRASTIC MEASURES." (Emphasis original.)
  Farbrother responded, "I favor drastic measures."

  * In a March 26 e-mail to the Vice President,
  Farbrother reported that Chris Sale had indeed
  "delegated hiring authority to the five cities and
  increased their budgets by 20%." But, he wrote, "I
  still don't think the city directors have enough
  freedom to do the job." (Emphasis added.)

  * By the end of March, Doris Meissner capitulated. In
  time, Newark, N.J., and Houston, Tex., would be added
  to the list of targeted cities, and in all, more than a
  million aliens would be naturalized in time to vote in
  the 1996 election.

  * In our investigation we developed sources inside the
  INS with specific knowledge of the facts who revealed
  that FBI arrest records that were being sent to the
  Chicago INS office simply were not being inserted into
  the aliens' files. As a result, aliens with criminal
  records were being granted citizenship. Our sources
  also disclosed that, just prior to the 1996 voter
  registration deadline, a box was discovered in the
  Chicago INS office containing nearly 5,000 FBI arrest
  reports -- reports that had arrived on time but had
  been ignored.

  * One criminal was actually in jail at the time he was
  naturalized.

  David Schippers, Sellout: The Inside Story of President
  Clinton's Impeachment, Regnery Publishing Company, 2000.


 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Link to excerpt from Sellout:

 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky-exnews/20000828-xex-schippers-go.shtml

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Eliciting Votes from Resident Aliens Using Government Databases

  * A Guatemalan housekeeper has a daughter who just
  turned 18. The immigration status of both mother and
  daughter has been pending for years. Papers have been
  filed with the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
  Hearings have been held. But they are not citizens. The
  daughter has not registered to vote.

  * The 18-year-old got a very attractively packaged
  "Dear friend" letter from Bill Clinton, paid for by the
  California Democratic Party.

  "Congratulations on your decision to register.
  Registering to vote is a basic responsibility of
  citizenship that far too many people ignore.

  "Now that you are registered ... Can I count on you to
  vote Democratic on November 7th?

  "Remember Your Vote is Your Voice.

  "Sincerely, President Bill Clinton"

  * Below that letter is a P.S. that explains, "Here is
  your personal Voter Identification Card. Sign your
  name, then detach your card. Bring your card with you
  to your polling place on Election Day. It will help
  your voting go more smoothly."

  * As my friend points out, only the U.S. government
  knows her age and pending residency status, and,
  obviously her Latino background. How did this
  information wind up in the partisan political hands of
  the California Democratic Party? And what kind of
  impact will a mailing like this -- obviously utilizing
  a government database for political purposes -- have on
  the California legislative races? How widespread is
  this fraud?

  ~From Joseph Farah's commentary "Voter Fraud, Again!"
  WorldNetDaily, November 7, 2000..

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Order "Votescam: The Stealing of America":
  http://www.votescam.com
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Voter News Service:
  http://www.votefraud.org
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Citizens For A Fair Vote Count (Jim Condit Jr):
  http://www.networkamerica.org
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  RADIO SHOW ON LINE ALL THE TIME: Listen anytime to the
  'Votefraud vs Honest Elections' crash course radio show
  over the internet (Real Player Required):
  http://playlist.broadcast.com/makeram.asp?id=376678
  (April 3rd, 2000, Jeff Rense host, Jim Condit Jr. guest)
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Download Real Player:
  http://www.real.com/products/ent
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Jeff Rense Talk Radio Network (Sightings):
  http://www.rense.com/
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ----- History in Crisis (New APFN WEB PAGE 11/13/00)
  http://www.apfn.org/apfn/election.htm

  spiker - spiker coollink.net
 ======================================================================

 Ballots Switched Before Count!
 http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb1075995

 Press Bias Clouds Election Reporting
 http://insightmag.com/archive/200012053.shtml

 Gore camp demands FBI inquiry
 http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,34812,00.html

 "It takes two to speak the truth: one to speak, and another to hear."
  -Henry David Thoreau

 Without Justice, there is JUST_US!
 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/apfncont.htm




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 12:23:21 2000
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 <mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
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November 12, 2,000

Jed,

E-mail "mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka~u.jp" (webmaster). He handles the JCF-RS
website. He responded to my complaints and added the asian font Acrobat Reader
4.05 add-on pgm link so that the downloaded PDF file would be readable. Also,
he got Takahashi to respond to my question of Y. Zhang's name missing from the
'Founders'" list.
I think if you request additional details on the  Mitsubishi paper, JCF-RS may
accommodate.

-AK-

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Thank you Akira for pointing out that the JCF actually did post the JCF2
> viewgraphs, just like they said they would. See:
>
> http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/DIST.HTML
>
> Unfortunately, there is nothing on papers 16 and 17, from Mitsubishi, which
> is what I really wanted to see. Perhaps something will show up later on,
> like the ballots in Florida.
>
> - Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 13:00:10 2000
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November 12, 2,000

"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:

> >Park's What's New item on the patent court news seems to help explain why
> >Mitchell
> >Swartz did not appear at the ICCF-8 to make a presentation as initially
> >listed.
>
> One thing had nothing to do with the other, though I do know that Mitch
> has spent enormous time and energy on his Patent work.

OK. I wouldn't know. Just wondered why he didn't show.

> >This is speculation. Tom's noting of "fair sum" for patent filing and
> >pursuit in
> >court, along with Mallove's presence in court hints to a possible
> >involvement of
> >his New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) and Ed Wall's untimely and
> >unfortunate
> >resignation from the laboratory.
>
> What???   I merely filed and Amicus Brief with the court on behalf of
> Mitch, as I was glad to do. Ed Wall's departure from NERL was his own
> choice and had nothing whatsoever to do with patent issues in the Swartz
> case!!!  NERL paid for Ed Wall's instructional videos so that he could
> take an examine to be a patent agent. That is all.

Nice to know. Now, is Ed now a patent agent? I understand he was considering
other paths.
Also if he does not mind, would you have his latest e-mail address? The address
he gave does not transmit.

And can you or Mitch reveal to some extent what the idea was about? Or is the
court ruling to be appealed?

> Gene Mallove

Thanks.

-AK-
(Amicus Curious)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 14:12:22 2000
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Subject: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
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Michael Randall posted a Web link to what he called off topic election 
humor, which Democrats will find somewhat sophomoric. The cartoons made fun 
of the fact that many people marked the election ballot incorrectly, 
despite the arrows pointing to the holes. One animated cartoon showed cars 
driving along a road with an exit sign clearly marked by a right pointing 
arrow. The cars veer off to the left instead. The newspapers have reported 
that classes of young children have been able to fill in similar forms 
without problems.

The cartoons are mere humor, but I think the comments about schoolchildren 
miss the point. And the point is relevant to experimental science -- vital 
to it, actually. A school child or adult voter given a form and told to 
study the way it works carefully is unlikely to make a mistake. An adult 
who walks into a room expecting to see one sort of form, with a layout he 
has used many times in the past, will not stop to study it carefully. He 
will be thinking about his choice of candidate. He may be a little 
intimidated or distracted by the hustle and bustle at the polls and the 
people waiting in line behind him. He will not expect to be confronted by a 
surprise, or a format that is difficult or counterintuitive. Perfectly 
normal, intelligent people will be caught off balance and will make 
mistakes under these circumstances. It is like giving people a test to 
glance at and then read back the sign:

Arriving passengers will
will please wait at the gate

People are likely to overlook the second "will."

On a poorly designed road, intelligent sober people sometimes make a wrong 
turn into traffic. I did that on a road near my house, and last week I saw 
two other drivers do the same thing. People do not choose to make dangerous 
or stupid mistakes. Most large scale disasters are caused by bad human 
engineering, including such things as: poorly written instructions, 
deceptive forms, machines that hide information they are supposed to 
display, badly placed or missing warning signs. The other day, an 
experienced pilot caused an accident in Taiwan what he turned onto the 
wrong runway during a typhoon. The runway he chose was under repair; he 
should have turned onto the next one. I'm sure the runway numbers were 
visible, and if he had been thinking a little more clearly he would not 
have made this mistake, but he was probably distracted by the storm. 
Normally a pilot would never turn down the wrong runway, but the people in 
charge of the airport should still have taken extra steps. Under temporary 
or unexpected circumstances such as repairs, a pilot's previous experience 
and his knowledge of the runway layout may betray him. Bad human 
engineering was the main cause of the Three Mile Island accident, as well 
described in the book "Three Mile Island, Thirty Minutes to Meltdown," by 
Daniel Ford.

Unfortunately, I have seen many cold fusion experiments which, in my 
opinion, were poorly designed from the human factors point of view. 
Expensive instruments were employed, but equipment was set up in such a way 
that it was difficult to know whether the equipment was functioning 
correctly. What I have in mind is problems like: cells placed on shelves 
close to the floor or high up where observing them is awkward, cells with 
essential components covered up needlessly; a flow of cooling water which 
you cannot verify by watching it or measuring it a cylinder; multiple 
meters flashing and blinking, clamoring for your attention. Instrument 
readouts nowadays are mostly digital or captured by computer, so there is 
little likelihood that the numbers themselves will be misread, but computer 
displays of data are sometimes poorly thought out, with too much happening 
on the screen. The scientists who operate these experiments say they know 
them extremely well, like the back of their hand, and they know which 
meters and lights to watch, and which to ignore. They do not want to 
rearrange things they are used to working with. The people who designed 
Three Mile Island later justified their decisions by pointing out that this 
was the traditional design for coal and gas-fired plants, and it was what 
operators were used to. There is something to be said for that argument, 
but it is a mistake to follow traditions blindly. I would be inclined to 
rearrange confusing experiments to make the important data clear to myself 
and to outside observers. Badly designed experiments encourage wishful 
thinking, and mistaken reports of excess heat.

Some months ago I mentioned the reforms in U.S. hospital procedures now 
underway, in which -- for example -- bottles of stimulant and suppressant 
will now be shaped differently, and marked with different colors, as well 
as with written warnings on the labels. These warning colors and shapes 
should be standardized, so that when doctors and nurses change jobs they 
will be met by familiar procedures and instruments. Some doctors (including 
one here) take umbrage at these reforms. They seem to think these proposals 
denigrate doctors, and treat them as if they were illiterate fools. They 
feel that doctors should not be treated as if they were kindergartners who 
cannot read the difference between a stimulant and a depressant. In my 
opinion, under some circumstances a doctor's performance will be no better 
than that of the kindergartner, or a Labrador retriever or capuchin monkey 
trained to fetch medicine (as some are). We're talking about basic stimulus 
and response, brain functions fully developed at an early age, and not the 
18 years of education built on top of that. A tired a doctor rushing to 
perform a procedure in an emergency room may reach for the wrong bottle, 
glance at it, and despite all his training and experience, he might use it 
by a mistake. When he is given tactile and visual feedback, his chances of 
making such mistakes are greatly reduced.

Getting back to the Florida ballot, briefly, it makes no sense to attack or 
ridicule Florida voters as being stupid. This group of voters was so large 
that it makes an excellent test sample. I expect that any large group of 
adults presented with a similar ballot anywhere in the country at an 
election polling place would make the same number of mistakes to within a 
few percent. If you were to give a group of adults the form outside of a 
polling place, and you were to warn them: "watch out, there's a trick to 
this, be sure to match the arrow to the hole," very few of them would make 
a mistake. There is no question that this problem was caused by bad human 
engineering, not by a particular group of people in Florida who happen to 
be unusually stupid. Whether the problem is severe enough to justify a 
special election depends upon laws and precedents in Florida, and the 
judgment of election officials. Reviewing articles in the newspaper about 
ballot design and the U.S., I get the impression that many other ballots, 
voting machines, and procedures are poorly engineered, and it may be time 
for some research, recommendations, or standardization to avoid similar 
problems in the future. I suspect that computer fraud in voting may also be 
more widespread than people realize, and I think Internet voting would be 
an unmitigated disaster.

By the way, I have no formal training in human engineering, but I learned a 
lot about this subject over the years from my mother, who was a leading 
expert in this arcane field. She worked for U.S. Army and the U.S. Census 
Bureau, long ago. And also by the way, the people who work at the Census 
Bureau have absolutely no authority over the questions they ask. Congress 
decides everything, down to the wording of the questions in some cases. So 
if you don't like those impertinent & absurd questions, call your 
Congressman -- or, as my mother said, just ignore the damn question. (She 
was probably in violation of some federal regulation somewhere, saying 
that.) Don't blame the poor Census taker or the lady who designed the form.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 14:28:14 2000
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>I think if you request additional details on the  Mitsubishi paper, JCF-RS may
>accommodate.

I think that will be up to the authors of the paper, and perhaps their 
supervisors at Mitsubishi. I spoke to the authors briefly at JCF-2, and 
they did not seem keen to have the viewgraphs available on-line, but they 
said they would think about it.

- Jed

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On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> If you grew a big enough beard (not a bushy one though), I would mistake
> you for Santa. ;) 

Waaay aheadaya.   I stopped shaving early september.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 02:55:56 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:10:13 -0500, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>An adult 
>who walks into a room expecting to see one sort of form, with a layout he 
>has used many times in the past, will not stop to study it carefully. He 
>will be thinking about his choice of candidate. He may be a little 
>intimidated or distracted by the hustle and bustle at the polls and the 
>people waiting in line behind him. He will not expect to be confronted by a 
>surprise, or a format that is difficult or counterintuitive. 

That would all be true IF IT WAS A SURPRISE FORMAT.  But it wasn't.
The entire ballot was published in the newspapers and shown and talked
about on TV.  It shouldn't have been a surprise.

Not only that, but that type of ballot has been used in those FL
counties for years.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yokogawa PZ4000 results
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:49:40 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  erev4 yahoo.com's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:54:02 -0600:
[snip]

The second ionisation potential for Argon is 27.629 eV, and the third is
40.74. 27.63 is about .4 eV more than the 27.2 required for a Mills
catalyst, where m=1, and 2 x 40.74 = 81.48 eV, compared to the 81.6 ensuing
from m=3.
In short, ionised argon can function as a Mills catalyst.


>    The Oct. Mizuno paper reads as if the effect is Argon based.
>    (I.e., the heat generation  is inside the plasma acting from Ar-H, not 
>related to the cathode, other than H.)
>
>   This, from the paper, gives no clue about argon.
>
>   'The electrolyte solution is prepared with filtered Milli-Q pure distilled
>water. It is used after being redistilled in quartz glass.' 
>
>   This does ...
>
>   'No excess heat was generated at the beginning of plasma electrolysis even
>if ... 
>
>However, after plasma electrolysis for more than several hundred seconds ...'
>
>   One can infer a buildup of a needed element inside the plasma. That happens
>in the sonoluminescence bubble.  (All the noble gases are mentioned in sono.)
>Many sono experiments failed because there was no 'suitable host' (e.g. argon)
>in the solution.
>
>   The tell tale color (within the plasma incandescence) is then based on 
>sono blue. 
>
>   John N
>
>    Here are some sono references. There are now 4 linked effects
>plus a number of isolated experiments with abnormal 1s1 ions.
>
>Gases that do 
><a href="http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/~ne201/1995/levinson/sonolum.html">
>not work </a> to emit light under sonoluminescence conditions are oxygen,
>nitrogen, compressed air. Noble gases  
><A href="http://www-phys.llnl.gov/N_Div/sonolum/">do work.</a>
>It is also asserted that
><a href="http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/chao-dyn/9605003">the noble gas impurity</a>
>ultimately is the dominant component of the bubble and therefore totally
>responsible for stability and light emission. 
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:08:57 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:10:13 -0500:
[snip]
>and response, brain functions fully developed at an early age, and not the 
>18 years of education built on top of that. A tired a doctor rushing to 

Or "a tired a" author rushing to finish an email ;)?

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 21:11:18 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: JCF-2 viewgraphs on line
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:10:06 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:24:44 -0500:
[snip]
>I think that will be up to the authors of the paper, and perhaps their 
>supervisors at Mitsubishi. I spoke to the authors briefly at JCF-2, and 
>they did not seem keen to have the viewgraphs available on-line, but they 
>said they would think about it.
>
>- Jed
Given that they had already clearly been presented in public, I fail to see
the problem.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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In reply to  Robert Hoffmann's message of Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:40:55 +0100:

>Hi,
>
>Try via this website:
>
>http://www.methernitha.com/
>
There is an email address of info methernitha.com on the web page. If you
write to them, I'm sure a real live person will reply. :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 13 21:47:18 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cook Inertial Propulsion System patent NUMBER ?????
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:45:58 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:32:01 -0500
(EST):

>
>	Where is the web site? Please.
>  
[snip]
Hi John,

There are 3 web sites where patents can be found. They are:

http://www.delphion.com/ (the IBM site).

http://ep.espacenet.com/ (European patent office - also has US and world
wide patents) and

http://www.uspto.gov/ (The US patent office).

There are probably also other national offices in individual countries, if
you do a web search for them, as well as a number of private patent
databases, that will supply patents for a fee.

PS - You might like to keep this email permanently.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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Subject: Re: Argon Gas Laser System
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The more talk I see about Argon molecular/ion spectra in Sonoluminescence,etc.
the more things look like Laser action is entering into the CF/OU effects.

 http://www.rli.com/argon.html

Although a bit nasty to work with, Potassium-Hydrogen should also
involve similar action.

Regards,   Frederick

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H2K-D2K Molecular/Ion Laser action in Vince's experiments?

Lots of excited (molecular spectra-infrared) states before Ionization energies
are attained.

 http://www.hylaco.com/laser.html

In the Nickel cathode electrolysis cells the K+ and H+/D+ ions can accept
electrons from the cathode that can fall to levels above or at the ionization
"ground state" of Hydrogen or Potassium, but, below the cell potential,thus giving OU results.

Regards,   Frederick



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 14 07:34:51 2000
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:32:12 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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The stock market continues to yo-yo crazily, as each bit of information
favorable to Bush or to Gore comes out--up when the datum is favorable to
bush, down when it is favorable to Gore. And this morning, when the news
came out that the hand recount is illegal in Palm Beach county because
there were no problems with the computer recount, the Globex futures locked
up the limit! And, interestingly, apparently this phenomenon has been
noticed: both the New York Times and the Washington Post, normally utterly
biased toward the Democratic candidate, yesterday called for Gore to
concede. (Apparently their pocketbooks are more important to them than
having a Democrat in the White House!)

If we assume that Gore is not going to concede, however, then this is all
going to come down to the overseas military ballots. There are, according
to what I have read, approximately 2500 of them, and they normally break
2-to-1 in favor of the Republican candidate. That would mean Bush will get
about 1667 of them, and Gore will get about 833. Since the present Bush
lead is about 325 (give or take), that means the final Bush lead would be
about 1992 votes, in the normal course of events. However, as I have also
noted, the possibility of skulduggery exists: Clinton operatives can
intercept the mail sacks (which come in on military transport aircraft from
overseas U.S. bases), examine the contents of the overseas votes, and
double-mark or toss out a sufficient number to throw the election to Gore.
If they do that, the result is going to look pretty damn strange. We might
get, for example, 833 votes for Gore and 507 votes for Bush, which reverses
the normal percentage breakdown, and sticks out like a sore thumb due to
the drastic drop in the totals. The question is, is Bill Clinton brazen
enough to do something like that? The answer: I don't know. But if not,
then it looks like Bush wins. And from what I see going on in the stock
market, that had better be the outcome, if the long-overdue crash is to be
staved off a bit longer.

OK, then what are the incentives for Gore to concede? Well, if he doesn't,
then the counting of absentee ballots in California and elsewhere is going
to continue, and is virtually guaranteed to swing the popular vote in favor
of Bush. And, if Clinton doesn't monkey with the overseas Florida ballots,
then Bush's final total there is going to be about 1900 votes, rather than
the present figure of about 300 votes. In other words, Gore looks a lot
better if he concedes than if he does not concede, *if* Clinton isn't going
to tamper with the overseas Florida ballots. Since Clinton will probably
let Gore know what he is doing in that regard, either overtly or by means
of hints, a concession by Gore would seem to mean that Clinton has declined
to tamper with the ballots. Thus if Gore does *not* concede, the
implications are very ominous indeed.

As for the stock market, the NASDAQ-100  futures made a low in the 2750's
yesterday, a number which suggests that the stock market bubble has finally
popped. Thus it is problematical whether even a Bush victory, at this
point, can undo the effects of this crisis--unless, of course, a popped
bubble can be unpopped. :-)

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:05:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >18 years of education built on top of that. A tired a doctor rushing to
>
>Or "a tired a" author rushing to finish an email ;)?

That was caused by difficulties with NatSpeak. The difficulties are caused 
by the fact that I broke the headset, and it is now held together with 
strapping taped and paper clips, so it does not stay in position and the 
paper clips keep tangling in my hair. It's always the little things that 
get you!

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:24:39 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
In-Reply-To: <3a13a925.197492517 mail.midiowa.net>
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

 >An adult
> >who walks into a room expecting to see one sort of form, with a layout he
> >has used many times in the past, will not stop to study it carefully. He
> >will be thinking about his choice of candidate. He may be a little
> >intimidated or distracted by the hustle and bustle at the polls and the
> >people waiting in line behind him. He will not expect to be confronted by a
> >surprise, or a format that is difficult or counterintuitive.
>
>That would all be true IF IT WAS A SURPRISE FORMAT.  But it wasn't.
>The entire ballot was published in the newspapers and shown and talked
>about on TV.  It shouldn't have been a surprise.

Perhaps it should not have been, but clearly it was a surprise to a 
significant number of voters. I'm not arguing the legal or moral issues, I 
am only pointing out a classic example of bad design, like the intersection 
near my house which leads drivers into the wrong lane when they turn. All 
the drivers who make that mistake, including me, are "smart enough" to know 
better, and if you look carefully you see the lane is marked with a 
"one-way do not enter" sign. It shouldn't be a surprise, but clearly for 
some people it is. The traffic sign, and the newspaper discussions of the 
ballot, were not visible enough.

When you design a software product or an experiment, and it causes 
confusion & mistakes, you should not blame the end users. You should not 
bemoan the fact that people are badly educated and they don't read 
instructions or follow directions. That is a fact of life. It is up to the 
product designer to accommodate end-users, not the other way around. By the 
same token, it is up to cold fusion scientists to convince the public; you 
cannot expect the public will come to us. Perhaps in an ideal world, the 
public would come to us, people would read the newspapers carefully, and 
drivers would diligently search for lane indicator signs, but that does not 
happen in this world.


>Not only that, but that type of ballot has been used in those FL
>counties for years.

I expect it was causing problems for years, but no one took steps to 
prevent them. People do not know much about human engineering. There are 
too many poorly designed consumer products, software packages, and physics 
experiments.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 14 08:26:31 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: JCF-2 viewgraphs on line
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Given that they had already clearly been presented in public, I fail to see
>the problem.

On the Internet the viewgraphs would reach a much wider audience. Plus I 
wanted copies for myself.

- Jed

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:14:57 EST
Subject: Re: On topic: how people make stupid mistakes
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In a message dated 11/13/00 2:12:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

> Michael Randall posted a Web link to what he called off topic election 
>  humor, which Democrats will find somewhat sophomoric. The cartoons made 
fun 
>  of the fact that many people marked the election ballot incorrectly, 
>  despite the arrows pointing to the holes.

<<snip>>

Execellent article Jed.

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 14 19:41:56 2000
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Subject: [OFF] A practical application of fractal technology.
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The closer you look, the more you keep seeing the pattern.

In American football's instant replay, sometimes you can see that a 
call should go one way, sometimes the other, and sometimes you still 
can't call it either way due to the details falling within the 
observer's margin of error.

Problem is - those *same* conditions will apply, even if you could 
zoom in to ever closer levels with a proportional reduction in the 
margin of error, as they do to the first cut made by the officials on 
the field. In other words, the average number of calls falling into 
the three possible outcomes would be about the same across any scale. 
That's the fractal nature of it. Of couse people like to have that 
one extra chance to have a look. That's fair, and doesn't generally 
cause too much of a delay to the overall proceedings which are, after 
all, time-sensitive.

So they challenged the results in some Florida counties, and got 
their instant replay. Same result. Now they want the League's lawyers 
to examine it and make rulings? Then challenge those rulings? And 
*those*? During the *game*??? Sheesh. Why - we'd run out of BEER 
waiting! <gasp>

The ruling stands. Touchdown Bush. Game over.

And don't anyone tell me this isn't a game, because:

#1, It is.

#2, The analogy is still valid, perhaps even more so with the 
political situation *because* it truly is (to many of us) a more 
important game than one played in the NFL.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 15 08:32:05 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: going now
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I leaving for DC to present my paper at Washington ANS.  I have some 
nondisclosures to give to Miley.  I look forward to meeting everyone 
including Martin Fleishmann, Chubb, and McKubee.  I may be with Talbot Chubb 
on Friday.  I am going to push the whole business over the top.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 15 13:52:29 2000
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Nov.5, 2,000

Vortex,

I believe, interpreting Mr. Ohta's response, that viewgraphs desired by
Jed and perhaps others will be uploaded by JCF-RS in time. Perhaps
directly pressuring the respective JCF2 session presenters to submit
their viewgraphs to the website may help move things along.

-AK-

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: JCF2 OHP
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:18:33 폝
From: "Masayuki Ohta" <mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Organization: 本館
To: "Akira Kawasaki" <aki ix.netcom.com>
References: <3A119246.C18DE285 ix.netcom.com>

> Will the rest of the presenation viewgraphs still not listed, be
> uploaded?

The rest of OHP is not received till now. 
When we get it, it will be up soon. 

Sincerely,
Masayuki Ohta

========================================
Masayuki Ohta (Dr. Course student)

Department of Nuclear Engineering
Osaka University (Takahashi Lab.)
Yamadaoka 2-1, Suita, Osaka, 565-0871 Japan

E-mail: mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp
Tel : 81 6 6879 7891 (Takahashi lab.)
========================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 05:52:39 2000
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>if the long-overdue crash is to be staved off a bit longer.

Your reasoning?
Bush (the older one) destroyed the economy.
Clinton has made it the most prosperous time for America.

Now do you give the country to the son of the guy who created lots of the debt,
and did bad stuff for the economy, indeed the 80's was a low all round.

Or the Vice President of the guy who did amazing things for the economy?

This is an incredibly small lead by Bush under any circumstance (300 vote
mark), but with all the voting "irregularities" in the state where his brother
"Jeb" is the Governor such as:

-Two ballots going to overseas military personal from florida. (and only
floridians)

-Computers giving negative votes to Gore (votes go missing) and other
candidates receive anomalously high votes. (computer "ERROR")

-Ballots already punched once or more before received by voter. (double
punching)

-Carpools of African-American voters were stopped by police, according to the
Los Angeles Times (11/10/00). In some cases, officers demanded to see a "taxi
license".

-Ballots ran out in certain precincts according to the LA Times on 11/10/00.

-Elderly people were phoned and told they couldn't vote without special
registration. (which is incorrect)

-In Osceola County, ballots did not line up properly, possibly causing Gore
voters to have their ballots cast for Harry Browne. Also, Hispanic voters were
required to produce two forms of ID when only one is required. (source:
Associated Press)

-Polls closed with people still in line in Tampa, according to the Associated
Press.

-Dozens, and possibly hundreds, of voters in Broward County were unable to vote
because the Supervisor of Elections did not have enough staff to verify changes
of address.

-Voters were mistakenly removed from voter rolls because their names were
similar to those of ex-cons, according to Mother Jones magazine.

-According to Reuters news service (11/8/00), many voters received pencils
rather than pens when they voted, in violation of state law.

-According to the Miami Herald, many Haitian-American voters were turned away
from precincts where they were voting for the first time (11/10/00)

-According to Feed Magazine (www.feedmag.com), the mayoral candidate whose
election in Miami was overturned due to voter fraud, Xavier Suarez, said he was
involved in preparing absentee ballots for George W. Bush. (11/9/00)

-According to tompaine.com, CBS's Dan Rather reported a possible computer error
in Volusia County, Florida, where James Harris, a Socialist Workers Party
candidate, won 9,888 votes. He won 583 in the rest of the state. [11/9/00]
County-level results for Florida are available at cnn.com. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Many African-American first-time voters who registered at motor vehicles
offices or in campus voter registration drives did not appear on the voting
rolls, according to a hearing conducted by the NAACP and televised on C-SPAN on
11/12/00.

-Unsealed Missing Ballot boxes, which have every chance of being tampered with.

-Obviously the palm beach ballots which gave 3000 votes to Buchanan which are
clearly not his, and 19,000 double punched votes. (the ballots are illegal)

-No Votes are too common over 9%, they are most often a case of the chad not
falling off of the computer punch card ballots, or the way the pen was used, or
other reasons? 10,361 in Palm Beach alone, Over 100,000 state wide. The intent
is apparent with a hand recount

That's not even all, isn't that scary?
Most of those irregularities give the advantage clearly to Bush.
Only a fraction of a fraction of them would need to be true and be rectified
and Bush would lose the lead and some!

If bush did become president he would not be the choice of the majority, he
would not even be the fair choice of the electoral college.
He probably would not be the choice if there was a hand recount in florida.

The Recount is a big mess, at least four florida counties did not actually
recount their ballots, they just printed the results again!!

Bush argues that recounts shouldn't take place where gore wants them, but is
having recounts done by hand in other places. (He has also in the past said
that recounts by hand are more accurate)

Bush said he trusted the people, and if he won the popular vote but lost the
electoral college vote he would fight!

Please read some of the below, And tell me how fair this vote in florida is?
Then tell me that the guy that is best for the economy is Bush.

More over I am not a democrat (If anything I'm probably center right). I have
heard some shocking things about Clinton which I half believe. I'm not even an
American and have never visited the US. But it is crystal clear from a non
biased view that bush is most defiantly not the man for the job.

And while it doesn't quite compare to clintons ring of death and such it seems
clear that bush was an alcoholic, cocaine user and dodged vietnam.

Oh, I must also think your on something is you think calf. is going to flip, or
did I misread what you wrote?
GORE (DEM) 5254500 54% WIN
BUSH (REP)4054756 42%

He'd need to gain 1199744 votes!

I also don't believe any crash is just around the corner, you are being silly
and negative, you remind me of Greespan. How stupid, too much growth, too
little inflation, employment is too high... Sky about to fall.
Can't you realize a positive thing as a positive thing? rather than fear it's
just bringing a negative thing?

More people say they would accept Gore than Bush 80%-70%.

BROKEN BALLOT BAGS FOUND IN VOLUSIA TODAY

As if discovering a ballot counting machine Tuesday night showing a Gore
deficit of 16,000 votes was not enough, while moving the ballots to another
building to get ready for a full hand
count tomorrow, officials discovered three unsealed ballot bags, one with the
paper votes actually spilling out. Unofficial results in Volusia show Gore with
97,063 votes and Texas Gov.
George W. Bush with 82,214. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow will
bring in this district that supposedly voted for Gore over Bush by 15 thousand
votes. At the very least, as
Republican Seminole County demonstrated, Volusia County counters should be able
to decide the "will of the voters" in a substantial number of ballots rejected
by the machine.
Anecdotal reports from Palm Beach County have indicated that on some of the
double punched ballots that were rejected there, the "will of the voter" was
indicated with hand-written
circles and arrows over the correct punch of the double-punched ballot. With
only 1% of the votes being hand-counted, one would hope that such ballots won't
be missed. --Politex,
11/10/00

BACKGROUND... "Absentee ballots apparently have a recent history of being used
for voter fraud in Florida elections. A 1998 report on voter fraud after an
investigation by the Florida
Department Of Law Enforcement identified a wide variety of types of voter fraud
that have been historically used in Florida. The reports stated "it appears
that the elderly voter or
elderly witness to another's absentee ballot are often targeted for use in
fraud schemes, perhaps because some of these voters may be easily manipulated
or influenced by those in whom
they have previously placed their trust." The 1998 law enforcement
investigative report also indicated that "the absentee ballot is the "tool of
choice" for those who are engaging in
election fraud" and provided a review of past voter fraud cases from Dade,
Volusia, Hardee, Dixie, Baker, and Lafayette counties." --Web Site Daily,
11/12/00

According to Daniel McGrory, a London Times reporter, "The FBI is being asked
to investigate how thousands of mainly black supporters of Al Gore were given
ballot papers that had
allegedly already been marked for rival candidates. Yesterday Democrat
officials were examining claims that up to 17,000 ballot papers in the Miami
area had been tampered with in what
they described as �organised corruption�. Lawyers from across the United States
descended on Miami and were busy taking statements from those complaining that
they had been
cheated or intimidated out of voting for Mr Gore. A senior Democrat official in
Miami, who has hired a team of 20 investigators to carry out an inquiry, told
The Times: �Until now in
Florida, we have been arguing foul-ups, human error and stupidity. But this is
deliberate corruption to spoil votes for Gore and that must be a matter for the
FBI.

�We don�t want to be seen as playing the race card here, but the areas where
this happened are in poorer precincts, which are predominantly black areas that
would be expected to vote
almost unanimously for Vice-President Gore. We are not accusing the Republican
Party or any other ethnic groups for being behind this. All we are saying is
the vote was corrupted.
There are just too many double-punched papers.� Jewish leaders in staunch
Democrat areas of the city claimed that they, too, had evidence of voting slips
being marked before they
reached polling stations in areas populated by retired Jewish couples. At a
rally in a Miami synagogue, Lisa Versaci, Florida director of People for the
American Way, said: �There can be
no innocent explanation for a pre-punched ballot sheet.� --London Times,
11/13/00

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE... The "presidential election has yet to be decided, and
it seems Florida is the straw that will break the electoral camel�s
back....There are...a number of
allegations regarding voting irregularities in several counties in the Sunshine
State. It seems, however, that Florida�s history of voter fraud is just as
storied as the Bush political legacy.
The most famous -- or infamous -- case involves the now derided ex-mayor of
Miami, Xavier Suarez, whose last election in 1997 was overturned because of
charges of voter fraud and
falsification of records. And Suarez's relevance might not be limited to past
election irregularities....

What is most stunning, though, is that Suarez now sits on the executive
committee of the Miami-Dade Republican party and was specifically involved this
year in helping get out the
Republican vote. Suarez, who told FEED that he is working to become the
committee�s chairman, said that leading up to last night�s election he "helped
fill out absentee ballot forms and
enlist Republican absentee voters in Miami-Dade County."...Kendall Coffey, lead
attorney in the original Suarez suit, said, "He said that?" Coffey, a
recognized expert in absentee ballot
law,...went on to say that Suarez�s participation in any part of enlisting
absentee ballots troubled him deeply.

"Suarez was found to have taken part in systematic and massive absentee ballot
fraud. He was found to have done significantly better in absentee balloting
than in the general vote." He
went on to say that since that time, while some improvements have been made,
"no one watchdogs absentee balloting, other than the campaigns themselves. The
election commission has
no authority to oversee the distribution of coordination of absentee ballots
until they are counted.These ballots are going to decide the outcome of the
closest race in a generation and,
given Suarez�s and this state�s murky history with regard to absentee
balloting, this calls for meticulous and vigorous investigation." --FEED

According to Bob Poe, Chairman for the Florida Democratic Party, reported
irregularities...also include, he said, lesser known reports of possible voter
intimidation in certain
African-American precincts and possibly thousands of lost votes due to a
possible computer glitch. �There are a lot of questions here, there are a lot
of angry Floridians,� Democratic
National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus said today. �People are talking
about taking away somebody�s constitutional right to vote, there are thousands,
literally thousands of
reports of irregularities.� Jesse Jackson said he got calls on Election Day
complaining that blacks had difficulty voting in Florida and other southern
states. Jackson said some voters
were told there were no more ballots, or that polls were closed. �What we need
is not just a recount by hand, but also a thorough investigation, � Jackson
said. Poe told ABCNEWS.com
Democrats had received reports of intimidation of voters in the largely
African-American precincts of Wakulla County on the Florida panhandle. Reports
suggest �highway patrol troopers
were stationed outside of those precincts with lights flashing and ticketing
people,� he said. �It was bizarre, it was like going back into the early
1900s,� he said. �Even in a tiny town like
Wakulla and those African-American precincts, that could account for the 2,000
[Gore votes] right there,� he said." --ABC NEWS, 11/8/00

26,000 GORE VOTES LOST IN VOLUSIA COUNTY, FLORIDA.

"A Florida Democratic Party official has raised a concern that thousands of
votes for Gore may have been omitted from the Democrat�s vote total because of
a computer error in Volusia
County. The problem was due to a faulty computer disk that contained results
from a particular precinct, but county officials have not yet said specifically
what the trouble was. According
to Bob Poe, state chairman for the Florida Democratic Party, Democrats had
received reports of an instance in which a preliminary voting count this
morning for Gore in Volusia County,
reported by Florida election officials, actually decreased by about 10,000 over
time [between 2 and 2:15 a.m.], before climbing again.... A Volusia county
court judge said today there is
nothing to indicate Volusia�s unofficial vote count is flawed or that
appropriate procedures were not followed. The county�s Canvassing Board will
meet today to discuss the matter and the
judge directed that three members representing the Democratic and Republican
parties be present. State election officials could not be reached for comment.
Judge Michael McDermott
also ordered Volusia�s election office secured and all ballots were locked in
the office vault." --ABC NEWS

"Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E.
Harris, an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide
total of 10,471. State Democratic
Party officials raised concerns that a computer error may have caused the
outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of Daytona Beach on
Florida's East Coast. In other counties,
Harris received 0, 1, or 2 votes." --CBS NEWS

"A judge ordered the special protection while officials figure out what
happened to 16,000 votes. This all began around 11 o'clock Tuesday night when
election officials noticed that
Democratic Presidential candidate Al Gore lost 16,000 votes that had previously
appeared on the computer screen. County leaders say they isolated the problem
to a faulty computer disk
in precinct 216 in DeLand. Now, Volusia County's unofficial tally gives Gore
97,063 and Bush 82,214 votes. County spokesman Dave Byron believes that tally
is correct. He says the
canvassing board went back and manually counted the votes of the precinct in
question.." --ISF

Questions. If the above reports are correct, Gore lost 16,000 votes around 11
p.m. and an additional 10,000 votes around 2 a.m. Have both loses been
accounted for, made up, and
verified.? Does the tally of 179,000+ total votes cast in Volusia County jibe
with the various statistical comparisons that could be made? Do the actual
ballots jibe with the figures? Have
the officials and workers been vetted with respect to their activities? Have
the glitches in the numbers been explained to and accepted by computer systems
experts? Have the Dem
observers understood and accepted the explanations? Are further investigations
needed? --Politex, 11/9/00

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> The stock market continues to yo-yo crazily, as each bit of information
> favorable to Bush or to Gore comes out--up when the datum is favorable to
> bush, down when it is favorable to Gore. And this morning, when the news
> came out that the hand recount is illegal in Palm Beach county because
> there were no problems with the computer recount, the Globex futures locked
> up the limit! And, interestingly, apparently this phenomenon has been
> noticed: both the New York Times and the Washington Post, normally utterly
> biased toward the Democratic candidate, yesterday called for Gore to
> concede. (Apparently their pocketbooks are more important to them than
> having a Democrat in the White House!)
>
> If we assume that Gore is not going to concede, however, then this is all
> going to come down to the overseas military ballots. There are, according
> to what I have read, approximately 2500 of them, and they normally break
> 2-to-1 in favor of the Republican candidate. That would mean Bush will get
> about 1667 of them, and Gore will get about 833. Since the present Bush
> lead is about 325 (give or take), that means the final Bush lead would be
> about 1992 votes, in the normal course of events. However, as I have also
> noted, the possibility of skulduggery exists: Clinton operatives can
> intercept the mail sacks (which come in on military transport aircraft from
> overseas U.S. bases), examine the contents of the overseas votes, and
> double-mark or toss out a sufficient number to throw the election to Gore.
> If they do that, the result is going to look pretty damn strange. We might
> get, for example, 833 votes for Gore and 507 votes for Bush, which reverses
> the normal percentage breakdown, and sticks out like a sore thumb due to
> the drastic drop in the totals. The question is, is Bill Clinton brazen
> enough to do something like that? The answer: I don't know. But if not,
> then it looks like Bush wins. And from what I see going on in the stock
> market, that had better be the outcome, if the long-overdue crash is to be
> staved off a bit longer.
>
> OK, then what are the incentives for Gore to concede? Well, if he doesn't,
> then the counting of absentee ballots in California and elsewhere is going
> to continue, and is virtually guaranteed to swing the popular vote in favor
> of Bush. And, if Clinton doesn't monkey with the overseas Florida ballots,
> then Bush's final total there is going to be about 1900 votes, rather than
> the present figure of about 300 votes. In other words, Gore looks a lot
> better if he concedes than if he does not concede, *if* Clinton isn't going
> to tamper with the overseas Florida ballots. Since Clinton will probably
> let Gore know what he is doing in that regard, either overtly or by means
> of hints, a concession by Gore would seem to mean that Clinton has declined
> to tamper with the ballots. Thus if Gore does *not* concede, the
> implications are very ominous indeed.
>
> As for the stock market, the NASDAQ-100  futures made a low in the 2750's
> yesterday, a number which suggests that the stock market bubble has finally
> popped. Thus it is problematical whether even a Bush victory, at this
> point, can undo the effects of this crisis--unless, of course, a popped
> bubble can be unpopped. :-)
>
> --Mitchell Jones
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 12:52:11 2000
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Subject: new energy company?
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<html>
Jed, Gene,&nbsp; do you guys know anything about this:<br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica" size=3D5><b>Energy Company, Chancellor Group=
,
to Acquire an Interest In Alternative Energy Technology <br>
</b></font><i>Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT</i> <br>
LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today
that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy Transfer
Corporation of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the further development
and commercialization of a revolutionary energy technology. <br>
The technology will dramatically cut the cost of energy and can replace
fossil fuel burning power generation facilities, provide a safe and clean
alternative to nuclear power generation facilities, abate serious
environmental problems, including ozone depletion and global warming, and
reduce the world's dependence on oil. <br>
Shane X.G. Rodgers, Chancellor Group vice chairman, said that, subject to
completion of previously announced financing arrangements, the company
will pay Energy Transfer Corporation an initial $6.5 million over a six
month period for a 40 percent interest in the company's Advanced Heat
Generation System (AHGS). For an additional payment, the company has an
option to own a 50 percent interest. <br>
A working prototype produces 10 watts of energy output for one watt of
energy input. Indications are that the technology could generate up to
double that energy output. <br>
Chancellor Group and Energy Transfer Corporation will form a new joint
venture company to exploit the technology and develop and commercialize a
wide range of heating, cooling and energy generation products. The new
company plans to begin continuous testing and beta-testing of the core
technology in various applications over the next two years. <br>
The technology was developed by three Santa Barbara scientists and
engineers, Michael Racich, Mitch Conner and Susan Jung. The three
principals of Energy Transfer Corporation have extensive experience in
complex space guidance systems, nuclear power plant controls, theoretical
physics, thermodynamics, computer systems, and information technology.
<br>
The Advanced Heat Generation System involves a unique means of activating
nuclear level reactions. It efficiently creates high-spin and
high-excitation nuclear states without linear accelerators but through
very low energy means. When correctly activated there is a large energy
release associated with this type of reaction. <br>
The technology generates enormous quantities of heat energy more
efficiently than any other existing heating system without using fossil
fuels or electrical heating coils. <br>
Calorimetric testing was done in conjunction with Brookhaven National
Laboratories, an internationally respected testing facility and research
lab. Energy Transfer Corporation also has the support of Long Island
Research Institute, which specializes in the commercialization of new
technologies, and the International Resource Group, which is involved in
all types of energy related policies and technologies. <br>
Present indications are that the technology will result in a product that
is smaller, cheaper, safer and more efficient than fuel cells as well as
having more applications. The technology is generations ahead of fuel
cell technology and has more advantages and none of the liabilities of
fuel cells, which require the establishment of a costly hydrogen fuel
distribution infrastructure. <br>
Among the many applications of the technology are residential, industrial
and commercial power, steam heating, and heating, ventilation and air
conditioning. Other applications include automobile engines, water
desalinization, power utility markets, and local and private power
generation markets. <br>
Applications of the technology are so economical and versatile that the
technology can also be used for portable power generation needs. <br>
Chancellor Group (OTC Bulletin Board: CHAG) is an emerging energy and
natural resources company. Information about the company is available on
the company's web site
<a href=3D"http://www.chancellorgroupinc.com/" eudora=3D"autourl">www.chance=
llorgroupinc.com</a>,
on
<a href=3D"http://www.thestockbroker.com/" eudora=3D"autourl">www.thestockbr=
oker.com</a>
and on <a href=3D"http://www.wallstreetnewscast.com/"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">www.wallstreetnewscast.com</a>, which has audio=
 interviews with company executives. <br>
This news release contains forward looking statements that involve risks and=
 uncertainties. Actual results, events and performance could vary from those=
 contemplated in the release. <br>
SOURCE Chancellor Group, Inc. <br>
<i>Copyright =A9 2000 PRNewsWire. All rights reserved. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</i><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.&nbsp;&nbsp; <a=
 href=3D"http://www.earthtech.org/"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http</a>://www.earthtech.<a=
 href=3D"http://www.earthtech.org/" eudora=3D"autourl">org<br>
</a>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,&nbsp; USA<br>
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)</html=
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 13:36:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:32:15 -0600
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Scott,
An executive summary is at:   http://www.wvnnetpert.com/prj-etcsummary.htm

On 16-Nov-00, Scott Little little earthtech.org wrote:

SL> <html>
SL> Jed, Gene,&nbsp; do you guys know anything about this:<br>
SL> <br>
SL> <font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=5><b>Energy Company, Chancellor Group,
SL> to Acquire an Interest In Alternative Energy Technology <br>
SL> </b></font><i>Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT</i> <br>
SL> LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today
SL> that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy Transfer
SL> Corporation of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the further development
SL> and commercialization of a revolutionary energy technology. <br>
SL> The technology will dramatically cut the cost of energy and can replace
SL> fossil fuel burning power generation facilities, provide a safe and clean
SL> alternative to nuclear power generation facilities, abate serious
SL> environmental problems, including ozone depletion and global warming, and
SL> reduce the world's dependence on oil. <br>
SL> Shane X.G. Rodgers, Chancellor Group vice chairman, said that, subject to
SL> completion of previously announced financing arrangements, the company
SL> will pay Energy Transfer Corporation an initial $6.5 million over a six
SL> month period for a 40 percent interest in the company's Advanced Heat
SL> Generation System (AHGS). For an additional payment, the company has an
SL> option to own a 50 percent interest. <br>
SL> A working prototype produces 10 watts of energy output for one watt of
SL> energy input. Indications are that the technology could generate up to
SL> double that energy output. <br>
SL> Chancellor Group and Energy Transfer Corporation will form a new joint
SL> venture company to exploit the technology and develop and commercialize a
SL> wide range of heating, cooling and energy generation products. The new
SL> company plans to begin continuous testing and beta-testing of the core
SL> technology in various applications over the next two years. <br>
SL> The technology was developed by three Santa Barbara scientists and
SL> engineers, Michael Racich, Mitch Conner and Susan Jung. The three
SL> principals of Energy Transfer Corporation have extensive experience in
SL> complex space guidance systems, nuclear power plant controls, theoretical
SL> physics, thermodynamics, computer systems, and information technology.
SL> <br>
SL> The Advanced Heat Generation System involves a unique means of activating
SL> nuclear level reactions. It efficiently creates high-spin and
SL> high-excitation nuclear states without linear accelerators but through
SL> very low energy means. When correctly activated there is a large energy
SL> release associated with this type of reaction. <br>
SL> The technology generates enormous quantities of heat energy more
SL> efficiently than any other existing heating system without using fossil
SL> fuels or electrical heating coils. <br>
SL> Calorimetric testing was done in conjunction with Brookhaven National
SL> Laboratories, an internationally respected testing facility and research
SL> lab. Energy Transfer Corporation also has the support of Long Island
SL> Research Institute, which specializes in the commercialization of new
SL> technologies, and the International Resource Group, which is involved in
SL> all types of energy related policies and technologies. <br>
SL> Present indications are that the technology will result in a product that
SL> is smaller, cheaper, safer and more efficient than fuel cells as well as
SL> having more applications. The technology is generations ahead of fuel
SL> cell technology and has more advantages and none of the liabilities of
SL> fuel cells, which require the establishment of a costly hydrogen fuel
SL> distribution infrastructure. <br>
SL> Among the many applications of the technology are residential, industrial
SL> and commercial power, steam heating, and heating, ventilation and air
SL> conditioning. Other applications include automobile engines, water
SL> desalinization, power utility markets, and local and private power
SL> generation markets. <br>
SL> Applications of the technology are so economical and versatile that the
SL> technology can also be used for portable power generation needs. <br>
SL> Chancellor Group (OTC Bulletin Board: CHAG) is an emerging energy and
SL> natural resources company. Information about the company is available on
SL> the company's web site
SL> <a href="http://www.chancellorgroupinc.com/" eudora="autourl">www.chancellorgroupinc.com</a>,
SL> on
SL> <a href="http://www.thestockbroker.com/" eudora="autourl">www.thestockbroker.com</a>
SL> and on <a href="http://www.wallstreetnewscast.com/" eudora="autourl">www.wallstreetnewscast.com</a>, which has audio interviews with company executives. <br>
SL> This news release contains forward looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results, events and performance could vary from those contemplated in the release. <br>
SL> SOURCE Chancellor Group, Inc. <br>
SL> <i>Copyright � 2000 PRNewsWire. All rights reserved. <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> <br>
SL> </i><x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
SL> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://www.earthtech.org/" eudora="autourl">http</a>://www.earthtech.<a href="http://www.earthtech.org/" eudora="autourl">org<br>
SL> </a>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,&nbsp; USA<br>
SL> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)</html>
SL> 
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 13:48:57 2000
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:22:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: new energy company?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Very Curious!

>From seemingly out of nowhere, the ETC Story is all over the
internet today. But what is the technology?

There are a few VC sites that have fragments of purported test
data -  a snippet is copied below - but very little of a
substantive substantive nature.

There is supposed to be a patent pending but I can find no
record of any filings by Conner of Racich at the USPTO..

The "high spin" jargon reminds me of some of the Joe Champion's
stuff . I hope not. Anyway I have tried to contact them for more
info.

Jones




CALORIMETRIC TEST RESULTS:

OPEN FLOW CALORIMETRY TEST RESULTS FOR ETC ADVANCED HEAT
GENERATION SYSTEM   THE INITIAL 7 TIME INTERVALS WERE
DOCUMENTED. MEASURED VALUES WERE:
               1) AIR VELOCITY (FT/MIN) THRU 4.5' DIAMETER TOP
HOLE
               2) TEMP OF AIR FLOWING THRU TOP HOLE (FLOW TEMP)
               3) AMBIENT TEMP (AMB TEMP)
               4) INPUT POWER TO CONE SYSTEM (200 WATTS)

     TIME FLOW SPEC FLOW AMB ETC
     INTERVAL AREA FT/MIN CFM LB/MIN HEAT TEMP TEMP BTU/MIN
WATTS COP

     1 0.11 836 107 7.95 0.24 130 75 105 1847 9.23
     2 0.11 880 107 7.95 0.24 133 75 111 1948 9.74
     3 0.11 968 107 7.95 0.24 141 75 126 2216 11.08
     4 0.11 968 107 7.95 0.24 160 75 162 2854 14.27
     5 0.11 968 107 7.95 0.24 183 75 206 3627 18.13
     6 0.11 968 107 7.95 0.24 197 75 233 4097 20.48
     7 0.11 968 107 7.95 0.24 212 75 261 4600 23.00

     THE COP CONTINUED TO INCREASE OVER TIME

     For more information contact:
     Mitch Conner
     ETC, 5662 Calle Real, Suite 185, Goleta, CA 93117
     Tel: 805-961-7076 Fax: 805-968-7264
     Email: mconner rain.org...

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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:41:49 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new energy company?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001116143645.038223e0 earthtech.org>
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	Dear Scott,

	This is ... to my mail server... just lie sending me nothing...
except is uses memory space.


	This is not ascii.

	Can you please send ascii?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 14:45:17 2000
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	What does this mean?

	I mean in real world ... not 'word salad' ...please.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 15:04:18 2000
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My apologies for sending the dolled-up message earlier.

Energy Company, Chancellor Group, to Acquire an Interest In Alternative 
Energy Technology
Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT
LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today 
that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy Transfer Corporation 
of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the further development and 
commercialization of a revolutionary energy technology.
The technology will dramatically cut the cost of energy and can replace 
fossil fuel burning power generation facilities, provide a safe and clean 
alternative to nuclear power generation facilities, abate serious 
environmental problems, including ozone depletion and global warming, and 
reduce the world's dependence on oil.
Shane X.G. Rodgers, Chancellor Group vice chairman, said that, subject to 
completion of previously announced financing arrangements, the company will 
pay Energy Transfer Corporation an initial $6.5 million over a six month 
period for a 40 percent interest in the company's Advanced Heat Generation 
System (AHGS). For an additional payment, the company has an option to own 
a 50 percent interest.
A working prototype produces 10 watts of energy output for one watt of 
energy input. Indications are that the technology could generate up to 
double that energy output.
Chancellor Group and Energy Transfer Corporation will form a new joint 
venture company to exploit the technology and develop and commercialize a 
wide range of heating, cooling and energy generation products. The new 
company plans to begin continuous testing and beta-testing of the core 
technology in various applications over the next two years.
The technology was developed by three Santa Barbara scientists and 
engineers, Michael Racich, Mitch Conner and Susan Jung. The three 
principals of Energy Transfer Corporation have extensive experience in 
complex space guidance systems, nuclear power plant controls, theoretical 
physics, thermodynamics, computer systems, and information technology.
The Advanced Heat Generation System involves a unique means of activating 
nuclear level reactions. It efficiently creates high-spin and 
high-excitation nuclear states without linear accelerators but through very 
low energy means. When correctly activated there is a large energy release 
associated with this type of reaction.
The technology generates enormous quantities of heat energy more 
efficiently than any other existing heating system without using fossil 
fuels or electrical heating coils.
Calorimetric testing was done in conjunction with Brookhaven National 
Laboratories, an internationally respected testing facility and research 
lab. Energy Transfer Corporation also has the support of Long Island 
Research Institute, which specializes in the commercialization of new 
technologies, and the International Resource Group, which is involved in 
all types of energy related policies and technologies.
Present indications are that the technology will result in a product that 
is smaller, cheaper, safer and more efficient than fuel cells as well as 
having more applications. The technology is generations ahead of fuel cell 
technology and has more advantages and none of the liabilities of fuel 
cells, which require the establishment of a costly hydrogen fuel 
distribution infrastructure.
Among the many applications of the technology are residential, industrial 
and commercial power, steam heating, and heating, ventilation and air 
conditioning. Other applications include automobile engines, water 
desalinization, power utility markets, and local and private power 
generation markets.
Applications of the technology are so economical and versatile that the 
technology can also be used for portable power generation needs.
Chancellor Group (OTC Bulletin Board: CHAG) is an emerging energy and 
natural resources company. Information about the company is available on 
the company's web site www.chancellorgroupinc.com, on 
www.thestockbroker.com and on www.wallstreetnewscast.com, which has audio 
interviews with company executives.
This news release contains forward looking statements that involve risks 
and uncertainties. Actual results, events and performance could vary from 
those contemplated in the release.
SOURCE Chancellor Group, Inc.
Copyright � 2000 PRNewsWire. All rights reserved.









Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new energy company?
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:01:40 +1100
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:37:23 -0600:


I noticed another rather surprising quote at their site:

"The technology brings closer to reality the growing notion and concept of
"distributed power". It will also serve as a natural hedge to both high and
low oil and gas prices, and ultimately, apart from being a significant
business in it�s own right, will fuel tremendous growth in Chancellor�s oil
& gas operations."

I'm rather curious as to how that latter is supposed to happen?

><html>
>Jed, Gene,&nbsp; do you guys know anything about this:<br>
><br>
><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=5><b>Energy Company, Chancellor Group,
>to Acquire an Interest In Alternative Energy Technology <br>
></b></font><i>Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT</i> <br>
>LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today
>that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy Transfer
>Corporation of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the further development
>and commercialization of a revolutionary energy technology. <br>
>The technology will dramatically cut the cost of energy and can replace
>fossil fuel burning power generation facilities, provide a safe and clean
>alternative to nuclear power generation facilities, abate serious
>environmental problems, including ozone depletion and global warming, and
>reduce the world's dependence on oil. <br>
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new energy company - ASCII
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:46:58 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:58:51 -0600:
[snip]
Near the bottom of http://www.wallstreetnewscast.net/altenergy.html , there
is a link to a PPT presentation, which explains fractionally more, but
nothing really.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 16:25:14 2000
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At 2:37 PM -0600 11/16/00, Scott Little wrote:

>Jed, Gene,  do you guys know anything about this:
>
>Energy Company, Chancellor Group, to Acquire an Interest In 
>Alternative Energy Technology
>Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT
>LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced 
>today that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy 
>Transfer Corporation of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the 
>further development and commercialization of a revolutionary energy 
>technology.

Looks like a BB pump & dump to me. My .02.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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For those interested....a google search turned up biographies
of all three of the people mentioned here...they are off the
chancellor group site.

Susan Jung appears to have papers published, in chemistry,
the papers are listed at the link below.  Do a page search
for her name, as many papers are listed.

http://lair.chemie.unibas.ch/az/AZPubList.htm

steve opelc








Scott Little wrote:
> 
> My apologies for sending the dolled-up message earlier.
> 
> Energy Company, Chancellor Group, to Acquire an Interest In Alternative
> Energy Technology
> Tue Nov 14 17:00:00 2000 GMT
> LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today
> the company's web site www.chancellorgroupinc.com, on
> www.thestockbroker.com and on www.wallstreetnewscast.com, which has audio
> interviews with company executives.
> This news release contains forward looking statements that involve risks
> and uncertainties. Actual results, events and performance could vary from
> those contemplated in the release.
> SOURCE Chancellor Group, Inc.
> Copyright � 2000 PRNewsWire. All rights reserved.
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 18:43:38 2000
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Interesting data that Jones Beene posted:

The Joule-Thomson Effect for the expansion of gases through an orifice
shows cooling if the gases are below the Inversion Temperature and
warming for the gases above the Inversion Temperature:

           Gas                        Inversion Temp  Deg K

      Helium                                 51
     Hydrogen                            205 
      Neon                                  242
     Nitrogen                              621
     Argon                                  723
    Oxygen                                 893

It doesn't follow that there is an enthalpy increase though?

OTOH, with Gas Maser Technology there are molecules that are in different
orbital states that are separated with electrostatic fields and used for Maser
Amplifier action:

n1/n2 =  exp^ (E1- E2)/kT

Maybe Laser and Maser physics (also Luminescence-Phosphorescence) can
explain some of the Over-Unity (OU)effects with Water/Electrolysis Cells.

Regards,     Frederick




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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:58:58 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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John Berry wrote:

[snip]

>>if the long-overdue crash is to be staved off a bit longer.
>
>Your reasoning?

***{For saying that a crash is overdue? In brief, because multitudes of
reliable indicators indicate that this is one of the most overvalued stock
markets in the history of the world. In terms of such measures as
percentage yield, Q-ratio, price-to-book, the number of hours that an
average person must work to buy an average share of stock, total stock
market valuation as a percentage of GDP, etc., this market exceeded 1929
levels of overvaluation in early 1996, and reached twice those levels early
this year. It is a mass delusion akin to the tulipmania of the 1630's, and
is being held together by multiple, massive, ongoing government
manipulations--e.g., by direct purchase of index futures by the
government's "plunge protection team," by the publishing of doctored
numbers in government economic reports, by international central bank
cooperation that, for example, has driven the Euro and the Yen to absurdly
low valuations. (In order to support the continued rise in the dollar,
thereby inducing foreigners to purchase U.S. stocks and bonds. If the
dollar begins to fall, foreigners who have invested literally *trillions*
in U.S. financial markets will begin to pull out, with predictable
results.) What we are seeing, in short, is a modern example that belongs in
the classic book *Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
Crowds*.

Why has this occurred? Because the fascist financial cartel, consisting of
investment banks, brokerage houses, mutual funds, stock, bond, and
commodity exchanges, wanted it to happen, and because, under
"fractional-reserve banking," their allies in the government are free to
supply the credit that is required to fuel such purchases. Any time they
can suck the public into the markets, based on whatever fantasy they can
concoct, the result is a self-perpetuating, credit-driven bubble in which
the price increases feed on themselves, reach ludicrous levels, and,
finally, when the expansion of the money base that is required to sustain
them threatens to kick the nation into hyperinflation, the authorities
tighten up, precipitating a crash. In the expanding phase, the financial
cartel rakes in hundreds of billions by charging fees, commisions,
interest, etc., to the public, and in the crash, they will be positioned on
the short side, and will make trillions more, as most of the savings of the
nation are transferred into their pockets.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Bush (the older one) destroyed the economy.
>Clinton has made it the most prosperous time for America.

***{That is a massive exaggeration, for two reasons.

First, the minor economic downturn that caused the elder Bush to lose his
bid for re-election can hardly be described as a disaster, and the current
bubble economy under Clinton is merely the boom phase of the well known
"boom and bust" cycle, and as such can hardly be described as a prosperity.

Second, neither Bush nor Clinton can be given exclusive credit for the
performance of the economy during their administrations. The the primary
reason is that, since the administration of Lyndon Johnson, neither major
party has had a free hand to work its will on the country. Instead, during
that interval, all significant legislative measures have been compromises
in which both sides had a hand. Result: you can't say that one side did
this and the other did that. The reality is that *both* sides must share
the blame for the ongoing disasters that, by their cooperative action, they
are causing. (E.g., hundreds of millions of people in the "third world,"
mostly children, killed by falciparium malaria since the ban of DDT.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

***{I snipped your lengthy list of allegations about Republican vote
stealing because I don't have time to get into it. Nor do I have time to
supply you with a similar list of Democratic misdeeds. Suffice it to say
that both parties engage in routine skullduggery. In my view, the Democrats
virtually always steal more votes than the Republicans, for one very simple
reason: public employees adminster elections and count the votes, and
roughly 80% of public employees in America are Democrats. --MJ}***

>
>Please read some of the below, And tell me how fair this vote in florida is?

***{Democracy is inherently unfair. The only fair voting system is one in
which people vote with their tax receipts, because it is only under such a
system that the productive classes will have the wherewithal to defend
themselves against would-be parasites. --MJ}***

>Then tell me that the guy that is best for the economy is Bush.

***{Best for the economy would be a continuation of divided government,
because most new legislation is violative of property rights and, hence,
hurtful to the economy.

As for the short-term economic effects of this election process, most
Americans who own stock vote Republican. They want Bush, and the ongoing
intraday oscillations of the stock market--up when the news is favorable to
Bush, down when the news is favorable to Gore--provide a clear indication
of that fact. This pattern reflects the well-known tendency of people to
buy based on positive expectations and sell based on negative expectations.
The other side of the coin, however, is this: when expectations become
facts--e.g., when either Bush or Gore is finally declared the
winner--investors tend to take profits. Thus, just as we see buying now
whenever it appears that Bush is going to win, so we will see selling
later, if he actually does win. And, similarly, if Gore is eventually
declared the winner, we will then see buying, as short positions are
covered.

When the short-term fluctuations are behind us, however, the U.S. stock
market will remain what it was before: a disaster waiting to happen. And,
worse, the technical damage done during this period of see-sawing may
ensure that the disaster happens sooner, rather than later.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>More over I am not a democrat (If anything I'm probably center right). I have
>heard some shocking things about Clinton which I half believe. I'm not even an
>American and have never visited the US. But it is crystal clear from a non
>biased view that bush is most defiantly not the man for the job.

***{Bush and Gore are statist buffoons. There are hundreds of millions of
Americans who are better qualified to be President than either of them.
Almost anyone, chosen at random, would be better than either of them, in
fact. Indeed, if people willing to do the job were placed on a huge list,
and the next President were picked by having a blind man throw a dart at
the list, the system would be vastly improved. The reason: the probability
of picking a person descended from a long line of human predators, with a
lifetime of training in the art of using government to plunder his fellow
men, would be virtually zero. Under the present system, on the other hand,
the probability is very nearly 1.0. --MJ}***

>
>And while it doesn't quite compare to clintons ring of death and such it seems
>clear that bush was an alcoholic, cocaine user and dodged vietnam.
>
>Oh, I must also think your on something is you think calf. is going to
>flip, or
>did I misread what you wrote?
>GORE (DEM) 5254500 54% WIN
>BUSH (REP)4054756 42%
>
>He'd need to gain 1199744 votes!

***{You misread what I wrote. Gore is proud of the fact that he "won" the
nationwide popular vote by about 200,000 votes. What I said was that, if
the counting of absentee ballots continues in California and elsewhere,
that 200,000 vote nationwide margin for Gore is likely to disappear. The
reason: absentee ballots tend to run about 2-to-1 in favor of the
Republicans. Thus unless Gore has something up his sleeve, he has an
incentive to concede now, in order to bring that counting to a halt. There
was no implication that Bush could win the popular vote in California. My
point was that, if Bush gains roughly 200,000 votes due to the continued
counting of absentee ballots, he will lead Gore in the nationwide popular
vote. --MJ}***

>
>I also don't believe any crash is just around the corner, you are being silly
>and negative, you remind me of Greespan. How stupid, too much growth, too
>little inflation, employment is too high... Sky about to fall.
>Can't you realize a positive thing as a positive thing? rather than fear it's
>just bringing a negative thing?

***{Because I am familiar with the facts, I see this market for what it is:
a mass delusion, fomented by America's fascist financial cabal, and a
guaranteed prelude to disaster. *What* is going to happen is clear; it is
only the matter of *when* that is unclear. (Big surprise there: it is
always easier to predict what is going to happen than when. Compare, for
example, the accuracy of a prediction that someone is going to die, with
the accuracy of a prediction of *when* he is going to die.) --MJ}***

[continued detailed allegations of vote fraud snipped]

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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 http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/history/ammonia.html

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Does dumping of the metastable states of H2/H2O give OU energy
in the Electrolysis Cells?

 http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/maser.html

FJS

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------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C05027.3164A540--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 16 23:44:14 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Good...Re: Maser/Laser History - Ammonia
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	This is a good bit of history... and on the ethics side.. Stan
Meyer claims to have invented the hydrogen laser ... so did Battelle claim
the same thing.  Battelle rarely credits the true innovators.  One of
their reps came to an open inventors forum and said "We will need 10,000
from you... or we can work with you, but we Have to be able to add
something art so we can say this is our or part ours.




On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> 
>  http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/history/ammonia.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 04:30:16 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: new energy company
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At 07:38 PM 11/16/2000 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>The Joule-Thomson Effect for the expansion of gases through an orifice
>shows cooling if the gases are below the Inversion Temperature and
>warming for the gases above the Inversion Temperature:

>It doesn't follow that there is an enthalpy increase though?

Being an amateur (perpetual status) student of thermodynamics, I can't
resist sticking my foot in my mouth here...:)

The J-T effect refers to the small departure from ideal gas behavior (no
temp change) that occurs when a gas undergoes a free expansion (i.e. thru
an orifice) in which no work is done by the expanding gas.  Since no work
is done, the enthalpy change is necessarily zero.  However, since enthalpy
is equal to the sum of heat energy + p*V energy in the gas, if the gas
doesn't expand "perfectly" so that a doubling of V results in an exact
halving of p, the heat energy of the gas must take up the difference...and
the temperature of the gas changes slightly.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 04:55:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:53:15 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0011035

Long awaited paper arrives finally today: :)

Regards,
hamdi ucar




Mystery of the "Magic Number" 137: Wave Genesis, Theoretical Representation, 
Role in the Universe

Authors: Albert M. Chechelnitsky
Comments: 6 pages
Subj-class: General Physics

     That mystery already exists more that 80 years. Many of great
     theoreticans - founders of modern physics - Sommerfeld, Ed-
     dington, Born, Pauli, Dirac, Weyl, Heisenberg, Feynman, etc.
     deeply feel its true price, provocative, defiant character in
     connection with the fundamental basis of the theoretical phisics. Is
     the Fine Structure Constant (FSC) the really fundamental constant
     or may be it varies with the time? If that is the really fixed quantity,
     then - what is its true, theoretically based value? Fundamental ideas
     of the Wave Universe concept open new possibilities to answer that
     and another incidentally arising questions

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: jlsparber <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: new energy company

Scott Little at www.earthtech.org  wrote:


> At 07:38 PM 11/16/2000 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >The Joule-Thomson Effect for the expansion of gases through an orifice
> >shows cooling if the gases are below the Inversion Temperature and
> >warming for the gases above the Inversion Temperature:
> 
> >It doesn't follow that there is an enthalpy increase though?
> 
> Being an amateur (perpetual status) student of thermodynamics, I can't
> resist sticking my foot in my mouth here...:)
> 
> The J-T effect refers to the small departure from ideal gas behavior (no
> temp change) that occurs when a gas undergoes a free expansion (i.e. thru
> an orifice) in which no work is done by the expanding gas.  Since no work
> is done, the enthalpy change is necessarily zero.  However, since enthalpy
> is equal to the sum of heat energy + p*V energy in the gas, if the gas
> doesn't expand "perfectly" so that a doubling of V results in an exact
> halving of p, the heat energy of the gas must take up the difference...and
> the temperature of the gas changes slightly.

I think you just shot down the Linde Process for liquifaction of gases by
using an "Engineering" Thermodynamics approach to a much more esoteric
bit of physics.  :-)

The Diatomic Hydrogen Molecule above the 205 deg Kelvin inversion temperature
Rises in Temperature when expanded through an orifice as opposed to N2, O2, and
Argon which cool and liquify since they are below their Inversion Temperature.

A quick "experiment" for this, is inhaling air through an orifice formed by the lips
(backward whistle)and noting the cooling effect on the tongue.  :-)

>From what I can gather, the "New Energy Company" is venting a gas (Hydrogen?)
through an orfice,and getting a "C.O.P." of "ten or more".

Seems to me that the Nitty-Gritty is in the Quantum States of the H2 molecules as they go
through "adiabatic" expansion, and result in a temperature rise,
which is at the heart of Maser/Laser action of atoms/molecules.

Can you explain this?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

> 
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 06:46:50 2000
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Wouldn't that be a kicker?  :-)

If the J-T expansion is adiabatic and there is a heat/enthalpy rise with H2, then
the only possibility left is ZPE energy extraction from the Vacuum.

OTOH, there could be a "Heat Pump" effect that will give the temperature rise,
but, the energy will fall short of the work required for compression-expansion of
the gas (H2?).

There might be a connection to Les Case's  H2/D2 - pressure cell here also.

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 06:51:33 2000
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

... this is one of the most overvalued stock
markets in the history of the world.

Jack Smith writes:

True; any stock with a price-to-earnings ratio over 10 is
overvalued and has to be sold by the "greater fool" principle.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

... It is a mass delusion akin to the tulipmania of the 1630's

Jack Smith writes:

History does show patterns of repetition.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

... the financial cartel ...  will be positioned on
the short side, and will make trillions more,
as most of the savings of the nation are transferred into their pockets.

Jack Smith writes:

Shearing the sheep with market whip-sawing has been going on
almost every day.  Getting bled drop by drop is more acceptable
and less likely to penetrate the consciousness than a major
bust.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

... the current bubble economy under Clinton is merely the
boom phase of the well known "boom and bust" cycle

Jack Smith writes:

There are numerous cycles superimposed upon each other.

The presidential election of 1888 is remarkably similar to
current events.  Now for a little numerology:

2000 - 1888 = 112 years.  112/2 = 56 years.  1888 + 56 = 1944,
which was not a similar election, perhaps because we were at the
end of the 20th century version of the 30-years war (1618 - 1648).

But the numeber "56" may have some signficance because the
Russian economist Kondratiev spent his twilight years in a
Siberian labor camp for his discovery (which he was foolish
enough to report) that capitalism was not headed straight
down to destruction but seemed dominated by a 55-year
business cycle (superimposed on other cycles), and thus
could be expected to recover after 1929.

If Kondratiev is right, then how can we tell where we are
on the 55-year cycle?  A good starting point is a "war of
enthusiasm:"

1846   Mexican War
1898   Spanish - American War
1951   Korean War
2006    ?

A war of enthusiasm is followed by 10 to 20 years of inflation
and social turmoil culminating in a "war of bitterness:"

1861  Civil War
1914  WWI (which continued to 1945)
1966  Viet Nam War

After the war of bitterness, there are a number of years
of "having a good time" and economic plateau, followed by a
crash.  The Kondratiev cycle then has a deflationary spell
until the next war of enthusiasm.  (Some people find this
period the best of times.)

Anyway, my point is that I don't think a crash is imminent.
On the other hand, maybe some 1500-year cycle is about
to swamp us with a drastic population decline (emp and
biological warfare?)  Or maybe I'm just deluded by numerology.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{Democracy is inherently unfair ...

Jack Smith writes:

Socrates might agree with that, but he still drank the
hemlock.  There is no fair system of governemnt.  All
we can do is choose the lesser of evils.  I personally
prefer maximizing personal freedom.  That's why I find
public acceptance of the current fascist economy in
exchange for an opportunity to vent their spleen on
others with a "war on drugs", etc., so appalling (and
grimly funny  as e. g. The Satyricon).

Mitchell Jones wrote:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

Hi Mitch,

Jeapordy:  Who was governor of what State when the bucket
brigade of drug-laden planes from Nicaragua landed there?

Although "honest politician" is an especially biting oxymoron,
we should give Al Gore credit for denouncing (probably cynically)
handing Elian Gonzalez over to Castro.  Anyway Bush and Gore
are owned by the same people.

We can hope for a government that does little or nothing
in either case.

Jack Smith


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Fred Sparber wrote:
> 
(snip)

> A quick "experiment" for this, is inhaling air through an orifice formed by the lips
> (backward whistle)and noting the cooling effect on the tongue.  :-)

Hey, Fred, I think you're just seeing the "wet bulb" temperature of
your tongue!  It's that darn dry southwest air of yours.  If I tried
that outdoors here in Ohio right now, I'd wind up with a mouthfull of
snow!  :-)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 08:08:01 2000
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It's not a cycle if it ain't repeating.

Who said cycles have to repeat forever...
Not everything is a cycle, and cycles can be broken.

All evidence is it has been broken.
Awareness of a cycle is all that is required to break it.

I also believed in stupid predictions based on cycles, and other things, but I
realized they never came true. They were great at "post-dicting" the past, but
never seem to get the future right.

They have been predicting crashes for years now.

Chicken little, your too paranoid!


Mitchell Jones wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >>if the long-overdue crash is to be staved off a bit longer.
> >
> >Your reasoning?
>
> ***{For saying that a crash is overdue? In brief, because multitudes of
> reliable indicators indicate that this is one of the most overvalued stock
> markets in the history of the world. In terms of such measures as
> percentage yield, Q-ratio, price-to-book, the number of hours that an
> average person must work to buy an average share of stock, total stock
> market valuation as a percentage of GDP, etc., this market exceeded 1929
> levels of overvaluation in early 1996, and reached twice those levels early
> this year. It is a mass delusion akin to the tulipmania of the 1630's, and
> is being held together by multiple, massive, ongoing government
> manipulations--e.g., by direct purchase of index futures by the
> government's "plunge protection team," by the publishing of doctored
> numbers in government economic reports, by international central bank
> cooperation that, for example, has driven the Euro and the Yen to absurdly
> low valuations. (In order to support the continued rise in the dollar,
> thereby inducing foreigners to purchase U.S. stocks and bonds. If the
> dollar begins to fall, foreigners who have invested literally *trillions*
> in U.S. financial markets will begin to pull out, with predictable
> results.) What we are seeing, in short, is a modern example that belongs in
> the classic book *Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
> Crowds*.
>
> Why has this occurred? Because the fascist financial cartel, consisting of
> investment banks, brokerage houses, mutual funds, stock, bond, and
> commodity exchanges, wanted it to happen, and because, under
> "fractional-reserve banking," their allies in the government are free to
> supply the credit that is required to fuel such purchases. Any time they
> can suck the public into the markets, based on whatever fantasy they can
> concoct, the result is a self-perpetuating, credit-driven bubble in which
> the price increases feed on themselves, reach ludicrous levels, and,
> finally, when the expansion of the money base that is required to sustain
> them threatens to kick the nation into hyperinflation, the authorities
> tighten up, precipitating a crash. In the expanding phase, the financial
> cartel rakes in hundreds of billions by charging fees, commisions,
> interest, etc., to the public, and in the crash, they will be positioned on
> the short side, and will make trillions more, as most of the savings of the
> nation are transferred into their pockets.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >Bush (the older one) destroyed the economy.
> >Clinton has made it the most prosperous time for America.
>
> ***{That is a massive exaggeration, for two reasons.
>
> First, the minor economic downturn that caused the elder Bush to lose his
> bid for re-election can hardly be described as a disaster, and the current
> bubble economy under Clinton is merely the boom phase of the well known
> "boom and bust" cycle, and as such can hardly be described as a prosperity.
>
> Second, neither Bush nor Clinton can be given exclusive credit for the
> performance of the economy during their administrations. The the primary
> reason is that, since the administration of Lyndon Johnson, neither major
> party has had a free hand to work its will on the country. Instead, during
> that interval, all significant legislative measures have been compromises
> in which both sides had a hand. Result: you can't say that one side did
> this and the other did that. The reality is that *both* sides must share
> the blame for the ongoing disasters that, by their cooperative action, they
> are causing. (E.g., hundreds of millions of people in the "third world,"
> mostly children, killed by falciparium malaria since the ban of DDT.)
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> [snip]
>
> ***{I snipped your lengthy list of allegations about Republican vote
> stealing because I don't have time to get into it. Nor do I have time to
> supply you with a similar list of Democratic misdeeds. Suffice it to say
> that both parties engage in routine skullduggery. In my view, the Democrats
> virtually always steal more votes than the Republicans, for one very simple
> reason: public employees adminster elections and count the votes, and
> roughly 80% of public employees in America are Democrats. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >Please read some of the below, And tell me how fair this vote in florida is?
>
> ***{Democracy is inherently unfair. The only fair voting system is one in
> which people vote with their tax receipts, because it is only under such a
> system that the productive classes will have the wherewithal to defend
> themselves against would-be parasites. --MJ}***
>
> >Then tell me that the guy that is best for the economy is Bush.
>
> ***{Best for the economy would be a continuation of divided government,
> because most new legislation is violative of property rights and, hence,
> hurtful to the economy.
>
> As for the short-term economic effects of this election process, most
> Americans who own stock vote Republican. They want Bush, and the ongoing
> intraday oscillations of the stock market--up when the news is favorable to
> Bush, down when the news is favorable to Gore--provide a clear indication
> of that fact. This pattern reflects the well-known tendency of people to
> buy based on positive expectations and sell based on negative expectations.
> The other side of the coin, however, is this: when expectations become
> facts--e.g., when either Bush or Gore is finally declared the
> winner--investors tend to take profits. Thus, just as we see buying now
> whenever it appears that Bush is going to win, so we will see selling
> later, if he actually does win. And, similarly, if Gore is eventually
> declared the winner, we will then see buying, as short positions are
> covered.
>
> When the short-term fluctuations are behind us, however, the U.S. stock
> market will remain what it was before: a disaster waiting to happen. And,
> worse, the technical damage done during this period of see-sawing may
> ensure that the disaster happens sooner, rather than later.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >More over I am not a democrat (If anything I'm probably center right). I have
> >heard some shocking things about Clinton which I half believe. I'm not even an
> >American and have never visited the US. But it is crystal clear from a non
> >biased view that bush is most defiantly not the man for the job.
>
> ***{Bush and Gore are statist buffoons. There are hundreds of millions of
> Americans who are better qualified to be President than either of them.
> Almost anyone, chosen at random, would be better than either of them, in
> fact. Indeed, if people willing to do the job were placed on a huge list,
> and the next President were picked by having a blind man throw a dart at
> the list, the system would be vastly improved. The reason: the probability
> of picking a person descended from a long line of human predators, with a
> lifetime of training in the art of using government to plunder his fellow
> men, would be virtually zero. Under the present system, on the other hand,
> the probability is very nearly 1.0. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >And while it doesn't quite compare to clintons ring of death and such it seems
> >clear that bush was an alcoholic, cocaine user and dodged vietnam.
> >
> >Oh, I must also think your on something is you think calf. is going to
> >flip, or
> >did I misread what you wrote?
> >GORE (DEM) 5254500 54% WIN
> >BUSH (REP)4054756 42%
> >
> >He'd need to gain 1199744 votes!
>
> ***{You misread what I wrote. Gore is proud of the fact that he "won" the
> nationwide popular vote by about 200,000 votes. What I said was that, if
> the counting of absentee ballots continues in California and elsewhere,
> that 200,000 vote nationwide margin for Gore is likely to disappear. The
> reason: absentee ballots tend to run about 2-to-1 in favor of the
> Republicans. Thus unless Gore has something up his sleeve, he has an
> incentive to concede now, in order to bring that counting to a halt. There
> was no implication that Bush could win the popular vote in California. My
> point was that, if Bush gains roughly 200,000 votes due to the continued
> counting of absentee ballots, he will lead Gore in the nationwide popular
> vote. --MJ}***
>
> >
> >I also don't believe any crash is just around the corner, you are being silly
> >and negative, you remind me of Greespan. How stupid, too much growth, too
> >little inflation, employment is too high... Sky about to fall.
> >Can't you realize a positive thing as a positive thing? rather than fear it's
> >just bringing a negative thing?
>
> ***{Because I am familiar with the facts, I see this market for what it is:
> a mass delusion, fomented by America's fascist financial cabal, and a
> guaranteed prelude to disaster. *What* is going to happen is clear; it is
> only the matter of *when* that is unclear. (Big surprise there: it is
> always easier to predict what is going to happen than when. Compare, for
> example, the accuracy of a prediction that someone is going to die, with
> the accuracy of a prediction of *when* he is going to die.) --MJ}***
>
> [continued detailed allegations of vote fraud snipped]
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 08:32:41 2000
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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The stock market continues its amusing dance: this morning the NASDAQ-100
futures sold off after the opening, until just before the judge in Florida
issued his ruling that the results of the hand-count could not be included
in the vote totals, after which they roared upwards by about 100 points in
a couple of minutes. It is so crudely obvious that investors, as a class,
want Bush in the White House, that it is laughable. And note what that
means: in the present situation, it looks like Bush is going to win,
because the presently certified totals--just upheld as valid by the Florida
judge--give Bush a 300 vote lead, and the absentee ballots, based on
history, are almost guaranteed to favor him. Thus investors are buying
*right now* based on their expectations that Bush will win, when today's
midnight cutoff for recording absentee ballots passes, and the final
numbers are totaled up. But, in that case, what is going to happen when the
Globex market opens Sunday evening, if Clinton has tampered with the
overseas military ballots? The answer, in my view, is this: when Gore is
declared the surprise winner, the investors who bought in anticipation of a
Bush victory are going to sell, accompanied by lots of short selling by
speculators, and the market is going into the tank. On the other hand, if
Bush wins, many of the investors who bought in anticipation of his victory
are going to take their profits, thereby contributing to market weakness
under that scenario as well (though the selloff seems likely to be far more
dramatic if Gore wins). (And, of course, anticipation of such an outcome
looks like a pretty good reason to sell today. :-)  --MJ


________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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Subject: Re: new energy company
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger suite224.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: new energy company

Hi Frank, welcome back to the club. How are things in Ashtabula County?
You wrote:


> Fred Sparber wrote:
> > 
> (snip)
> 
> > A quick "experiment" for this, is inhaling air through an orifice formed by the lips
> > (backward whistle)and noting the cooling effect on the tongue.  :-)
> 
> Hey, Fred, I think you're just seeing the "wet bulb" temperature of
> your tongue!  It's that darn dry southwest air of yours.

Maybe so, but, the dry southwest air dried out my tongue long ago.

I'll have to try it in the shower.  

>  If I tried
> that outdoors here in Ohio right now, I'd wind up with a mouthfull of
> snow!  :-)

Looks like you're going to have a snowy (Lake Effect) Thanksgiving, too.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Frank Stenger
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 10:14:27 2000
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 <v04011700b639a15016f1 [207.8.127.242]>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:13:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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>It's not a cycle if it ain't repeating.
>
>Who said cycles have to repeat forever...
>Not everything is a cycle, and cycles can be broken.

***{The boom and bust cycle is an effect of a cause: fascism. Get rid of
fascism, and you get rid of the cycle. As to how to get rid of it, that
depends on which phase of the cycle you prefer. If you like the bust phase,
then replace fascism with socialism by abolishing private property rights.
Or, if you like the boom phase, then replace fascism with capitalism, by
making property rights absolute. (It's simple! :-) --MJ}***

>
>All evidence is it has been broken.
>Awareness of a cycle is all that is required to break it.

***{The bust phase can be put off longer, by a fascist government that
intervenes to nip incipient crises in the bud. The technique is to inject
fiat money into the appropriate area, in order to prevent asset bubbles
from deflating there. However, the result of such interventions is to
encourage the delusion that is pushing prices higher, which leads investors
to bid prices up further, producing even more grotesque overvaluations in
the future. That means even larger injections of fiat money will be
required to support those valuations the next time prices begin to move
back toward more reasonable levels. The implication: the more the boom is
prolonged, the larger the injections of fiat money that are required to
support it. Eventually, when the inflationary effects of the newly created
money become more than the fascist authorities can tolerate, they are
forced to abandon their efforts to prop up the various asset bubbles in the
economy. Those bubbles then collapse, wiping out the assets of millions of
people who formerly considered themselves to be rich and who, as a result,
spent freely for consumer goods. Then, due to the "reverse wealth effect,"
those newly impoverished multitudes reduce their spending for consumer
goods. That causes unsold goods to pile up on retailer's shelves, leading
them to reduce their orders to manufacturers, who, after building up
inventories to burdensome levels, begin to lay off workers. At that point,
the bust phase of the cycle begins.

Bottom line: awareness of the cycle is *not* all that is required to break
it, because the various techniques that fascist governments use to prolong
the boom phase merely lead to bigger busts further down the road.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I also believed in stupid predictions based on cycles, and other things, but I
>realized they never came true.

***{An exaggeration. As I said, predicting when something is going to
happen is harder than predicting what is going to happen. As a result, it
is easy to get the date of the event wrong, and many people do, in every
iteration of the boom and bust cycle. However, the cycle does continue, and
those who predict that it will continue while admitting that the timing of
specific events is hard to nail down, have always turned out to be
correct. And those who, like you, have stated that busts are a thing of the
past, have always been wrong. --MJ}***

They were great at "post-dicting" the past, but
>never seem to get the future right.
>
>They have been predicting crashes for years now.
>
>Chicken little, your too paranoid!

***{My belief that the boom and bust cycle is alive and well is based on
economic and political considerations. The cause of the cycle, in my view,
is fascism itself; and as long as fascism continues, so too will the cycle.
After all, it is by means of the cycle that politically connected insiders
within the fascist financial cartel line their pockets. Since the lining of
politically connected pockets is fascism's reason for being, I think my
expectation is solidly grounded in facts and logic, despite what you say.
--MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 12:22:47 2000
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: new energy company?
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>.Good morning fellow Vortexians;

Reading the R. Wormus posting about the new energy company got me to thinking.

In 1995 I was at the Global Sciences Conference when David Hudson 
announced his high spin state gold. My question as high spin compared 
to what? It just occurred to me that if the speed of the electron's 
spin was increased, that would be high spin. But as I recall Hudson 
called the state a high spin angle. So high angle compaired to what? 
The implications of this are staggering. High spin rhodium is said to 
masquerading as iron, high spin angle gold doesn't appear to be gold. 
Get the idea?

I'd like to thank Wormus and Scott Little for calling this to my 
attention. I'm going to hit their website next.

Could someone explain why the SL>br> came up at the head of each line 
in the forwarded post?

>SL> <br>
>SL> The Advanced Heat Generation System involves a unique means of activating
>SL> nuclear level reactions. It efficiently creates high-spin and
>SL> high-excitation nuclear states without linear accelerators but through
>SL> very low energy means. When correctly activated there is a large energy
>
>
>SL> <a href="http://www.chancellorgroupinc.com/"
>SL> <br>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 12:30:54 2000
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:29:29 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To fellow Digustees,

I do not usually like to discuss politics because such discussions seldom change
any minds, as many previous discussions on Vortex have demonstrated.  However, the
Bush-Gore battle has raised my disgust to levels that require a comment.

We are presented with two choices each of which suffers from serious limitations
of honesty, character, and stability of personality.  These limitations were
driven home before the election with each candidate slowing the limitations of the
other one and of themselves by their actions.  No wonder the vote is so close,
they are both equally bad.  Now, in the final act, they are adding to the bad
impression by manipulating the system to gain small advantages. Heaven help us
when either winner is presented with a serious challenge in the real world.
Clearly, the race to the bottom, which is well along in the entertainment/news
industry, has reached its limit in politics.  We can hope that the government will
be too hamstrung by bickering after one loser wins to do any serious damage to the
rest of us.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 12:41:58 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:39:21 EST
Subject: MEG v2.0 build by JL Naudin       
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Jean Louis has come up with some 
interesting results.   Comments?

 <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm">Click here: The MEG v2.0 
build by JL Naudin       </A> 

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 14:00:31 2000
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On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> Jean Louis has come up with some 
> interesting results.   Comments?
> 
>  <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm">Click here: The MEG v2.0 
> build by JL Naudin       </A> 



AC output is 700% of input?!!!   At 30KHz.


Impressive, since there doesn't seem to be an obvious source of major
errors.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 14:16:06 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:13:40 EST
Subject: Difference between Adams and LaFonte Group Motor
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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The difference between the two motors is the LaFonte Group Motor does not 
change the polarity of the rotor or stator during any part of the motor 
operation. The torque comes from the rotor being pulled to the ferrite core 
of the attraction coil with the circuit open.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

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There's an interesting phenomenon involving pot-core electromagnets (like
the Edmund Scientific 500lb-lift magnet run by two D-cells.)  Place the
polished face of the electromagnet against a polished steel plate.  When
the magnetic loop closes (with no gaps), the B-field in the steel becomes
extremely large, even though the drive current remains the same as when
the magnetic loop had an air gap.  Put a piece of paper between the magnet
and the steel plate being lifted, and the lifting force becomes very
small.  Even a tiny gap in the magnetic loop can drastically reduce the
b-field.

In his early writhings, Dr. Aspden mentioned this sort of thing as being a
source of O/U.  Isn't the MEG based upon this effect?  With an "actuator" 
coil turned off, the "magnetic circuit" in that half of the device is
complete.  The b-field in the loop might be much higher than usual. 
Applying a current to the coil would not only oppose the flux in the core
and subtract from the total flux, it would also break the "magnetic
circuit" and reduce the flux far more than expected.

If my thinking is correct, then interesting things would happen only if
the b-field of the permanent magnet is far higher than the saturation
level of the core material.  For example, a steel magnet on a steel core
would produce a weak b-field whether the gap was closed or not.  With
steel PM on steel, closing the gap would not cause a major change in the
b-field in the core, and the pickup coil would not produce a large
voltage.  To produce a large output, we'd want to place a neodymium magnet
against an iron core.  And we'd want to reduce the air-gap between the
magnet and the core as much as possible, perhaps by milling and polishing
the facing surfaces.  (On the other hand, perhaps mechanical vibration
plays a role here, and we'd *want* to leave a tiny air gap which the
vibrations could open and close.) 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Subject: Re: Musings on Bearden's MEG
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On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> In his early writhings, Dr. Aspden mentioned this sort of thing

Back then he was *writing*.    He hasn't been noticably writhing.



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Hi Vince,
>
> Jean Louis has come up with some 
> interesting results.   Comments?
> 
Jean-Louis appears to have a problem with his digital scope
based calculation of power output giving high and incorrect
overunity numbers. Apply ohms law to the 100K load resistor driven
by the scope measured voltages. The currents the scope
is showing are about 10 times too high in the latest MEG 2.1
results. Also, the load resistor looks like a 2 watt carbon composition
resistor and could withstand the "28 watt" output for a couple of
minutes at most. 
-
It is always important to use simple reality check type calculations
and extra measurements to verify overunity performance.
I have measured overunity many times in my magnetics experiments.
Unfortunately, it has always been due to incorrect settings or faulty
components. One nasty case turned out to be a coaxial microwave
50 ohm terminator that actually measured 35 ohms. Sometimes the
overunity numbers can be traced to a subtle conceptual error in the
input or output measurement technique. Even closed loop tests can
be a problem if timing signal inputs are still present. In one circuit
the output voltage actually increased after the power supply was 
disconnected. The power source turned out to be feedthrough
from the signal generator driving an FET gate.
-
I have recently constructed small MEG  tests with ferrite and
supermendur tape wound cores. They were certainly not sufficient to
prove that the MEG  cannot work, but without saturating the core,
removing or replacing the magnet had essentially no effect
on the input and output waveforms.
-
In spite of all these negatives and based on my work to date,
there remain real possibilities for magnetic overunity devices. 
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



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	Dear Folks,


	In all comments notwithstanding ....


	The minute someone tells me "digital ...xxx..." measurement..... I
get a little unhappy.  Especially if the "....digital.  xxx..." is giving
me the number.

	Use an analog scope and an analog meter and run the outputs into a
composition or film or ceramic resistor ... and then see if all agrees.

		My opinion.


						J


On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, George Holz wrote:

> Hi Vince,
> >
> > Jean Louis has come up with some 
> > interesting results.   Comments?
> > 
> Jean-Louis appears to have a problem with his digital scope
> based calculation of power output giving high and incorrect
> overunity numbers. Apply ohms law to the 100K load resistor driven
> by the scope measured voltages. The currents the scope
> is showing are about 10 times too high in the latest MEG 2.1
> results. Also, the load resistor looks like a 2 watt carbon composition
> resistor and could withstand the "28 watt" output for a couple of
> minutes at most. 
> -
> It is always important to use simple reality check type calculations
> and extra measurements to verify overunity performance.
> I have measured overunity many times in my magnetics experiments.
> Unfortunately, it has always been due to incorrect settings or faulty
> components. One nasty case turned out to be a coaxial microwave
> 50 ohm terminator that actually measured 35 ohms. Sometimes the
> overunity numbers can be traced to a subtle conceptual error in the
> input or output measurement technique. Even closed loop tests can
> be a problem if timing signal inputs are still present. In one circuit
> the output voltage actually increased after the power supply was 
> disconnected. The power source turned out to be feedthrough
> from the signal generator driving an FET gate.
> -
> I have recently constructed small MEG  tests with ferrite and
> supermendur tape wound cores. They were certainly not sufficient to
> prove that the MEG  cannot work, but without saturating the core,
> removing or replacing the magnet had essentially no effect
> on the input and output waveforms.
> -
> In spite of all these negatives and based on my work to date,
> there remain real possibilities for magnetic overunity devices. 
> -
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 15:48:50 2000
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Hi I'm back from the ANS Washington meeting.  I video taped what I could.  I 
will route a copy of this tape around.  If you would like to view it and send 
it on to the next person on the routing list send me an Email to 
fznidarsic aol.com

Subject ANS route me

Include your mailing address in the body of the email.
I will wait until next Tuesday and send out the tape.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 16:29:04 2000
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I recall seeing an error in earlier Bearden papers, and it appears in the
MEG paper too.


In Fig. 4 and Fig. 5 in the MEG paper, the Poynting flow is parallel to
the two wires, with only a tiny amount hitting the surface of the wires
and being absorbed.  But this is purely orthodox physics!  Problems arise
because the diagram depicts a transmission line, not a load resistor.  In
a transmission line there is only a small energy-loss caused by finite
wire conductivity, since some of the moving electrons are slowed by
lattice interactions and must be sped up again.  Usually this is depicted
as a slight inward tilt of the total energy flow (as mentioned in the
quote in REF. 11 in the paper.)  Because it tilts inwards, a tiny amount
of energy is absorbed by the wires and lost as resistive heating.  The
rest of the energy proceeds along to the circuit's electrical load.

The large "Heaviside component" energy flow is said to be "wasted."  But
in conventional textbooks, this large flow is simply the main energy flow
in the electric circuit!  The "wasted" flow is actually energy which
is enroute from the power supply to the load.  It is not supposed to touch
the connecting wires at all.  Only when it arrives at an electrical load
does it dive inwards.  And conversely, at the location of the power
supply, it is pouring outwards.  In the region between the power supply
and the load, the energy flows parallel to the wires, just as expected.

Fig. 6 in the MEG paper appears to be backwards.  If this diagram is
intended to depict the Poynting energy flow, then it should show the
arrows radiating outwards from the battery, and directed inwards towards
the resistor.  (and they should curve, so that each arrow coming out of
the battery should join with an arrow which is diving inwards to the
surface of the resistor.)

Note that in Fig. 6 we could reverse both the polarity of the power supply
and also the direction of current, yet the energy-flow arrows would remain
unaffected.  Negative one times negative one stil gives positive one. 
This shows that the energy flow does not follow the direction of the
electric current.  The bright red arrows in Fig. 6 are wrong; they are not
electric current "i".  Instead they are energy flow p, or i x v.  Flip the
battery, and the current "i" will flip too, yet those bright red arrows
still point away from the battery and towards the resistor.  The diagram
should depict small black arrows for "i", and large red arrows for energy
flow "p."   To remove confusion, "i" should be reversed, so there is no
question than "i" and "p" are two different entities.


Do I totally misunderstand the nature of these diagrams?  I suspect that
the authors misunderstand the fact that, under orthodox Poynting-flow
descriptions of electric circuits, the wires conduct charge but *don't*
conduct any energy.  Ideally the EM energy flowing along through the metal
wires is zero.  Instead, the EM energy in an electric circuit flows only
in the EM fields surrounding the circuit, and if the resistance of the
wires is small, then the e-field exists *only* in the space surrounding
the wires, and hence the E x H energy flow takes place *entirely* outside
the wires.   When you plug a lamp into a wall outlet, the energy does not
flow inside the power cord.  Instead it flows in the empty space
surrounding the power cord!  So says the orthodox viewpoint on the
behavior of energy in EM systems.

If a single resistor is connected to a single battery, then Fig. 7 is
wrong in showing an "Sout".  With one power supply connected to one load,
the Poynting-vector energy flow is always *towards* the resistor.  In Fig. 
7, the "S(tr)" vectors on the right hand side near the "S(out)" lable
should be turned around the other way This is because i is the same and
the b-field is the same on both sides of the resistor, but the e-field is
backwards on the right-hand side. The cross-product of E and H at that
spot should produce a Poynting-vector energy flow which runs parallel to
the connecting wires, but which flows towards the resistor.  When the
arrows are flipped around correctly, the sum of the Poynting vector fields
at each end of the resistor is simply the energy lost to resistive
heating, and there is no "S(out)" remaining.


An "orthodox" Poynting-flow diagram appears in Kraus and Carver
ELECTROMAGNETICS, page 417, Fig. 10-19.  This diagram shows the power flow
as it exits a battery, flows parallel to the wires, then dives
perpendicularly into the surface of a resistor.  This sort of diagram is
missing from all other physics textbooks I've ever encountered, so it's
little wonder that it might seem strange and mysterious.  Yet it describes
the energy flow of the simplest circuit.  It really should appear in ALL
physics texts.






Still, I don't see how this part of the MEG paper connects with the rest
of the material.  It has little to do with ZPE obtained through regauging. 
If it was deleted, the main issues would seem to remain unaffected.  It is
a major error, but not one that alters the other conclusions as far as I
can tell.  If the authors are searching for an explanation of anomalous
excess energy in magnetic devices, they may find it in the regauging
concepts, but I don't think it is found in the Poynting vector fields of
simple DC circuits.


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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 17:09:16 2000
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Jean Louis has come up with some
> > interesting results.   Comments?
> >
> >  <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm">Click here: The MEG v2.0
> > build by JL Naudin       </A>
> 
> AC output is 700% of input?!!!   At 30KHz.
> 
> Impressive, since there doesn't seem to be an obvious source of major
> errors.
> 

I looked this page, and could not found an information on how the output coils are loaded on this specific experiment.

Only way to be sure of output power is calorimetry. I would be easy to make calorimetric measurements if you have tens of watts in hand. It can be simply plunge the heatsink of the load resistance into water within a glass and wait until the water boils. 
This would be enough to distinguish 5 watts from 20-30 watts. (5 watts will never boil the water without a good insulation :) ) 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, William Beaty wrote:

> AC output is 700% of input?!!!   At 30KHz.


Others have noted a 10x error in the current.  Or a 10x mistake in the
value of load resistor.   Perhaps the current probe does not display
the 10x correctly on the scope.



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	Dear Folks,


	In all comments notwithstanding ....


	The minute someone tells me "digital ...xxx..." measurement..... I
get a little unhappy.  Especially if the "....digital.  xxx..." is giving
me the number.

	Use an analog scope and an analog meter and run the outputs into a
composition or film or ceramic resistor ... and then see if all agrees.

		My opinion.


						J



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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: ANS Route me
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:12:09 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  FZNIDARSIC aol.com's message of Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:47:20 EST:
[snip]
>Hi I'm back from the ANS Washington meeting.  I video taped what I could.  I 
>will route a copy of this tape around.  If you would like to view it and send 
>it on to the next person on the routing list send me an Email to 
>fznidarsic aol.com
[snip]
Hi Frank,

I suspect your tape is NTSC, and therefore useless as far as I am concerned.
Could you possible email me the notes from your talk?

TIA,


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>


>http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0011035
>
>Long awaited paper arrives finally today: :)

You are joking? Checkout "What is the fine structure constant?" at
http://www.fervor.demon.co.uk/mainmenu.htm and tell me what you think. I
found the paper you refered to dissapointing, but Wales explanation very
enlightning 8^)

Scott

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From: "Scott Stephens" <Scott2 Mediaone.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Electron to photon conversion?!?! (antimatter anihilation without the antimatter)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:08:54 -0600
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(I posted this to my favorite DIY thermonuclear fusion reactor web site,
"The Fusor BBS" at http://songs.com/noma/philo/fusion/index.html I think it
is relevant to discussions of 'high spin states' and potassium-hydrogen
energy.)

How about an exciting nuclear reaction to investigate with your fusor?

If you can believe in electromagnetic - nuclear reactions such as the recent
post to:

"AIP Update #500: transfer of energy from nuclear reactions to atomic
electrons 8.31.00" from Thu, 31 Aug 2000 AIP listserver<PHYSNEWS AIP.ORG and

and gamma lasers and the mossbauer effect (such
as:http://www.utdallas.edu/research/quantum/cqeseg3.htm#CONC)

You might consider what I'm suggesting seriously.

Randall Mills has developed a novel explanation for cold fusion's purported
anomalous heat generation - hydrinos which you can read about at:
http://www.hydrino.org/GUTCQM.htm

In his book (which was once available in full online, but now I can find
only a few chapters) he describes electrons and photons as electromagnetic
'orbitspheres', soliton-like configurations of charge.

Along the same lines is the following paper:
"THE PHYSICAL ORIGIN OF MASS AND CHARGE II" by
Erik A. Haeffner 0010050.pdf at http://xxx.lanl.gov/find/hep-th or
http://www.aalgonet.se/~haeffner

Which states electrons are basically photons bent into a loop. And Mills
states that quarks are nuclear leptons that trap 3 gluon-photons, which have
a color charge dependent on phase.

So the unified field theory is just the electrodynamics of photons. No more
'strong' force and weak force - but more is required I won't get into here.

Mills in addition to hydrino-collapse theory of energy release in cold
fusion also refers to CAF - coulombic annihilation fusion.

Consider an electron gets trapped between heavy metal ion and hydrogen
(proton) ion.

Then thermal agitation causes the heavy catalyst (like potassium) to radiate
energy (around 40 eV) making the electron orbit between the hydrogen ion in
a quantum sub-orbit (hydrino).

Mills says no orbits are stable past N/25. I'm not so sure hydrino's are
stable at all independent of a heavy ions influence.

What might be happening is the electron gets stuck between the hydrogen and
potassium, the potassium radiates 40 eV photons away as the distance between
the hydrogen and potassium ions shrinks with each 40 eV step.

After a few hundred eV are radiated, the orbit of the electron is so
eccentric and the fields so powerful that the electron (looping photon) is
'straightened out' and the broken loop of EM field pushes the hydrogen away
from the potassium ion - no more electron!

It sacrificed itself bringing two positive ions together, which tore it
apart. What Mills says in his book about pair production is interesting and
relevant.

Just another silly notion someone with a fusor might want to investigate. If
it is for real, it would be a virtual energy panacea. Direct (near anyway)
conversion of plasma into electricity, with a bit of heat and no nuclear
radiation!

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 17 21:45:49 2000
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What is you mailing address I can send a copy of the abstracts?

Frank Z

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Subject: Re: new energy company?
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:21:44 -0400
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All,

This news about ETC is mind-boggling, because our lab (NERL) in 1998 
checked out *a* rotary heat device from Conner and Racich for over a week 
 and found no evidence whatsover of over-unity.  In fact, we found the 
obvious explicit reason why the Brookhaven National Lab  recommended test 
(which Connor and Racich had employed) was flawed, producing a claimed 
13/1 over unity -- 200 watts in and 2600 watts out.

The two gentlemen involved were, we beleived, very sincere, nice people 
but were deluded into thinking that their device was really massively 
over-unity. By the simple testing we performed for them with a 
4ftx4ftx4ft insulated calorimeter, it clearly was not.  They left NERL 
with a puzzled impression -- they seemed to be wanting to find an escape 
from an unfortunate situation. It was my impression that they would soon 
stop fooling themselves over the data. I thought we would never hear from 
them again. Unless something has changed -- perhaps they have some 
entirely new method? -- I can say with 100% confidence that this device 
tested at NERL in 1998 showed no evidence whatsoever of 10/1 kind of over 
unity. True enough, we would not have been able to observe 10% effects 
easily, but that was not the issue. 

I hope that this IS a new method unrelated to the one we tested in 1998, 
otherwise I would be highly dubious of the claims.

I will try to call them, speak to them personally, and try to find out 
what goes. This is most puzzling.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

*******


LAS VEGAS, Nov. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Chancellor Group, Inc. announced today
that it has signed a preliminary agreement with Energy Transfer
Corporation of Santa Barbara, California, to fund the further development
and commercialization of a revolutionary energy technology. <br>
The technology will dramatically cut the cost of energy and can replace
fossil fuel burning power generation facilities, provide a safe and clean
alternative to nuclear power generation facilities, abate serious
environmental problems, including ozone depletion and global warming, and
reduce the world's dependence on oil. <br>
Shane X.G. Rodgers, Chancellor Group vice chairman, said that, subject to
completion of previously announced financing arrangements, the company
will pay Energy Transfer Corporation an initial $6.5 million over a six
month period for a 40 percent interest in the company's Advanced Heat
Generation System (AHGS). For an additional payment, the company has an
option to own a 50 percent interest. <br>
A working prototype produces 10 watts of energy output for one watt of
energy input. Indications are that the technology could generate up to
double that energy output. <br>
Chancellor Group and Energy Transfer Corporation will form a new joint
venture company to exploit the technology and develop and commercialize a
wide range of heating, cooling and energy generation products. The new
company plans to begin continuous testing and beta-testing of the core
technology in various applications over the next two years. <br>
The technology was developed by three Santa Barbara scientists and
engineers, Michael Racich, Mitch Conner and Susan Jung. The three
principals of Energy Transfer Corporation have extensive experience in
complex space guidance systems, nuclear power plant controls, theoretical
physics, thermodynamics, computer systems, and information technology.
<br>
The Advanced Heat Generation System involves a unique means of activating
nuclear level reactions. It efficiently creates high-spin and
high-excitation nuclear states without linear accelerators but through
very low energy means. When correctly activated there is a large energy
release associated with this type of reaction. <br>
The technology generates enormous quantities of heat energy more
efficiently than any other existing heating system without using fossil
fuels or electrical heating coils. <br>
Calorimetric testing was done in conjunction with Brookhaven National
Laboratories, an internationally respected testing facility and research
lab. Energy Transfer Corporation also has the support of Long Island
Research Institute, which specializes in the commercialization of new
technologies, and the International Resource Group, which is involved in
all types of energy related policies and technologies. <br>
Present indications are that the technology will result in a product that
is smaller, cheaper, safer and more efficient than fuel cells as well as
having more applications. The technology is generations ahead of fuel
cell technology and has more advantages and none of the liabilities of
fuel cells, which require the establishment of a costly hydrogen fuel
distribution infrastructure. <br>
Among the many applications of the technology are residential, industrial
and commercial power, steam heating, and heating, ventilation and air
conditioning. Other applications include automobile engines, water
desalinization, power utility markets, and local and private power
generation markets. <br>
Applications of the technology are so economical and versatile that the
technology can also be used for portable power generation needs. <br>
Chancellor Group (OTC Bulletin Board: CHAG) is an emerging energy and
natural resources company. Information about the company is available on
the company's web site

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: new energy company?
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>All,
>
>This news about ETC is mind-boggling, because our lab (NERL) in 1998
>checked out *a* rotary heat device from Conner and Racich for over a week
> and found no evidence whatsover of over-unity.  In fact, we found the
>obvious explicit reason why the Brookhaven National Lab  recommended test
>(which Connor and Racich had employed) was flawed, producing a claimed
>13/1 over unity -- 200 watts in and 2600 watts out.
>
>The two gentlemen involved were, we beleived, very sincere, nice people
>but were deluded into thinking that their device was really massively
>over-unity. By the simple testing we performed for them with a
>4ftx4ftx4ft insulated calorimeter, it clearly was not.  They left NERL
>with a puzzled impression -- they seemed to be wanting to find an escape
>from an unfortunate situation. It was my impression that they would soon
>stop fooling themselves over the data. I thought we would never hear from
>them again. Unless something has changed -- perhaps they have some
>entirely new method? -- I can say with 100% confidence that this device
>tested at NERL in 1998 showed no evidence whatsoever of 10/1 kind of over
>unity. True enough, we would not have been able to observe 10% effects
>easily, but that was not the issue.
>
>I hope that this IS a new method unrelated to the one we tested in 1998,
>otherwise I would be highly dubious of the claims.
>
>I will try to call them, speak to them personally, and try to find out
>what goes. This is most puzzling.

***{I can't say anything about the motivations of these specific
individuals, but speaking generally I would note that as long as the stock
market bubble remains unpopped, capital will continue to be available for
just about any hare-brained scheme that can be imagined, provided only that
the idea can be dressed up in a form that will avoid criticism in the mass
media. What that means is that the discoverers of supposed "over unity"
devices have a very powerful financial incentive to fool themselves, as a
prelude to fooling others, and will therefore be inclined to find a path,
reasonable or not, which enables them to reject criticism. (A sales pitch
works better if the person making the pitch believes it himself.) That's
not to say that the discovery of a new source of energy is impossible, but
rather to say that those who are looking for the truth about such matters
need to be very careful. It is not, in general, any more reasonable to
expect an "over unity" researcher to respond to substantive criticism by
changing his views, than it is to expect a religionist to do so. Powerful
incentives exist, in both cases, than tend to perpetuate the belief, even
if it is wrong. --MJ}***

>
>Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
>Infinite Energy Magazine &
>New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
>Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
>P.O. Box 2816
>Concord, NH 03302-2816
>
>editor infinite-energy.com
>www.infinite-energy.com
>
>603-228-4516  Phone
>603-224-5975  Fax
>
>*******
________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 18 08:57:17 2000
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Nov. 18, 2,000

Vortex,

The Chancellor Group Corp. is a recently listed OTC-BB energy related
corporation. Their recent connection with "Energy Transfer Corporation",
involvement of the "Long Island Research Institute", and three
individuals from Santa Barbara are mentioned in Scott's posting of a Las
Vegas Newswire. Thanks for the posting.

Exciting stuff. Time to jump on the bandwagon? Dunno. Their Business
Strategy reads well.
However, there were no telephone listings for Energy Transfer
Corporation in Santa Barbara and region, Long Island Research Institute
in Long Island, or some background materials on the three principal
individuals of ETC to persuade you to get involved with Chancellor
Group. All three are now (or always were?) vp's of ETC.

Eugene Mallove's mention of Conner and Radich adds to the "dunno". It
certainly cools the initial curiosity. It's beginning to look more like
an IPO (initial stock offering) stock kiting game based on the energy
shortage gimmick rather like the recent IT (Internet Technology) rage.
Of course I could be off base.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 18 14:23:19 2000
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Message-ID: <3A1700CC.21CE5B1 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:21:00 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: Mystery of the "Magic Number" 137 (physics/0011035)
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A bit. I had just inspired from title of the paper. Paper is mostly focused on historic developments.
No novelty catch (to) my eyes too.  So the mistery appears had not solved there.

I recall a paper...Will look... later.
 
Regards,

hamdi ucar

Scott Stephens wrote:
> 
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> 
> >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0011035
> >
> >Long awaited paper arrives finally today: :)
> 
> You are joking? Checkout "What is the fine structure constant?" at
> http://www.fervor.demon.co.uk/mainmenu.htm and tell me what you think. I
> found the paper you refered to dissapointing, but Wales explanation very
> enlightning 8^)
> 
> Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 18 14:40:02 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <df.c993902.27485ed8 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:38:16 EST
Subject: Re: MEG v2.0 build by JL Naudin       
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In a message dated 11/17/00 3:07:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
george varisys.com writes:

> Jean-Louis appears to have a problem with his digital scope
>  based calculation of power output giving high and incorrect
>  overunity numbers. Apply ohms law to the 100K load resistor driven
>  by the scope measured voltages. The currents the scope
>  is showing are about 10 times too high in the latest MEG 2.1
>  results. Also, the load resistor looks like a 2 watt carbon composition
>  resistor and could withstand the "28 watt" output for a couple of
>  minutes at most. 
>  -
 George, it looks like M. Naudin changed the load resistor from the
MEG v1.0 build and just neglected to tell us. I for one
am glad we rattled his cage a bit. The devil is in the details. <g>

M. Naudin has updated his webpage with the following:

Note from Jean-Louis Naudin : The current has been measured 
with a 10 ohms ceramic and non inductive resistor 
( with a Tektronix THS720P oscilloscope, the probe 
used is a 1/10 and scope setup for the CH2 is 1000mA/V ), 
the same resistor and the same method of measurement 
has been used for input and also the output. 
***********************end of page quote****************************

I ordered some neodymium magnets today as I had this old
pair of C-core ferrite sections laying around. I can't resist. <g>
I ordered from:
 <A HREF="http://www.wondermagnet.com/dev/main.shtml">Click here: Wholesale 
Neodymium and ceramic magnets, superconductors, and other fascinating stuff 
by FORCEFIELD</A> 


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 18 18:44:59 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new energy company?
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:43:14 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:21:44 -0400:
Hi Eugene,

Did you get a chance to look at the internals of the device you tested, and
if so did it bear any resemblance to the method described in the PPT file at
the bottom of http://www.wallstreetnewscast.net/altenergy.html ?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: MEG v2.0 build by JL Naudin       
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    Looking at the scope pictures at Naudins site I see:

DC input 24.64 volts
DC input 161.4 milliamps
    which gives:
Total DC input power of 3.976 Watts to the device,
including the driver electronics.

 I believe a function (signal) generator is used to provide
a 33 kHz clock to the driver electronics and should be
included in the input power but these generators (I have one)
normally have outputs on the order of 10 millivolts or less. 
If we include it, how much?

Output end of the device:
Output Frequency  ~33KHz
V and I sinusoidal and appear to be in phase
486.2 volts RMS 
48.08 milliamps RMS
Load resistor 10 ohms ceramic non-inductive.

Now my question to all the AC power experts out there is:
Is the total AC power output more than the total DC power input?
The output is continuous 33 kHz at the RMS V and I listed above.

The quest for OU bottom line: IT MUST SELF SUSTAIN

Now that in mind, assuming the above data are correct, what would
be the best way to get that ~480 volt output down to the ~30 volt DC
needed for input?
Transformerless if possible but efficiency counts big time here. The 
reason I say transformerless is that he is using a resistive load and
there is the possibility that an inductive load would induce unwanted
operating parameters. 


  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 06:57:08 2000
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>In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:21:44 -0400:
>Hi Eugene,
>
>Did you get a chance to look at the internals of the device you tested, and
>if so did it bear any resemblance to the method described in the PPT file at
>the bottom of http://www.wallstreetnewscast.net/altenergy.html ?
>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk


My computer cannot view that PPT file in the referenced URL.  Please tell 
me what the method shown appears to be.

The device brought to NERL in 1998 was a sheet metal cone-shaped chamber, 
about 12-inch diameter base with height of about 15 to 18 inches, I 
recall.  A DC  motor (for model airplanes) spun a rotor of special design 
in the airtight chamber.   The surface of the cone reached temperatures 
up to 350 F (be aware, this is all from memory at this point).   The 
rotor was no more than a thin sheet of wood with point-shaped 
projections. All-in-all a seemingly nonsensical device, but we gave the 
gadget its best shot in our tests.  After constructing a 4'x4'x4' foam 
insulated chamber (most of the work was done by Ed Wall), we ran 
calibrations of the stirred air chamber with various joule heaters 
enclosed -- from below 100 watts to  several kilowatts.

The device under test heated the chamber to a temperature roughly what a 
200 watt joule heater would reach. It is inconceivable that the device 
could have been putting out multiples of the input power. The two 
disappointed inventors suggested that the humidity of our Bow, NH air at 
that time might be causing a problem with the measurement. We politely 
told them that only if there were gross droplets of water falling on the 
device, removing heat from the unit, would our assessment be off by much. 
 They also brought up the thermal stratification issue as a possible 
problem for our calorimeter. This could not have been a problem either 
since we stirred the chamber with a fan of known power.  We had 
thermocouples throughout the chamber -- there was no evidence of 
stratification.

The tests that the Brookhaven-linked group had recommended the inventors 
make involved merely a flimsy, uninsulated cardboard box covering the 
device. There was a tubular chimney leading out of this box.  The 
inventors merely compared the delta-T (output stream temperature minus 
ambient temperature)with  the device, versus delta-T of known thermal 
devices such as light bulbs.  The obvious fallacy of this test was that 
it was not forced convection with the same volume air flow!  It was 
natural convection from objects producing dissimilar flow rates of air up 
the chimney.  Apples were being compared with oranges. Indeed, the 
delta-T of the device under test was much greater with this absurd 
calorimeter, but so what!

The inventors also claimed that a model airplane propeller substituted 
for their "special rotor" would not give significant heating of the cone 
-- despite there being 200 watts input to the DC motor.  This claim was 
readily shown to be in error -- to their evident surprise, when we 
insisted that they try out a propeller bought from a local hobby shop.  
When the rotor heated up beyond their expectation, they focused 
immediately on the "sharp points" at the squared ends of this particular 
propeller, which they implied might be producing their "magic" effect.

All-in-all, it was a fiasco that I thought would fade off as these two 
engineer inventors realized their mistakes. IF they are still purveying 
this device, I am astonished.  I hope I hear from some of you who can 
read the file referenced by Robin that the device is not the conical 
"wonder" of 1998.  Since that time we have called this episode that of  
"The Coneheads" -- since this conically shaped wonder seemed to have 
taken these initially sincere folks beyond the realm of elementary logic.

I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong about this device. If we 
made some mistakes, or if their new system is not what we tested in 1998, 
 I hope the inventors will come forward and let us all know.  Certainly 
they had every opportunity to contact us since that time but have never 
done so.

We never wrote this up for Infinite Energy because we were under 
non-disclosure. Now that ETC appears to be going public and potentially 
raising large funds, I feel obligated to report the facts as we know them 
--about their 1998-vintage device at least.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

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All,

The message below was just now sent to the ETC inventors.

Gene

*****


Dear Mitch,

I have not heard from you in a few years. Is the device reported herein 
(see below) the one you brought to our lab in 1998? Would like to hear 
about the new developments.  Do I have the right Mitch Conner?

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 09:37:53 2000
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Hi Vince,

I'll give you input from my observation of JLN's MEG replication and also from
my own experimentation.

Firstly, taking JLN's latest reported measurements, the COP appears to be 7 or
thereabouts. If this is a 'real' result, it should be no problem to transform
down with a transformer of mediocre design, rectify and filter to the required
DC level, and have this thing self power itself! This will not happen in my
opinion because of gross measurement errors in the test setup.

Having said that, let's look at the previous versions of JLN's MEG replication.
The load resistance used has been a 2W 100K in all cases. The 10 ohm resistance
value is the current sense resistor used on both input and output measurements.
The Tek THS702P scope appears to have a problem accurately processing power
calculations with anything other than a near pure sine wave, so the most
accurate way to interpret JLN's readings is to forget about the power channel
indications and focus on the voltage and current readings.

As has been pointed out by others, there is a 10X error in the output current
readings in the JLN's latest version, and the reason is speculated upon but
unknown because he is not sharing all the details at this time.

My own current experiments have centered on a Honeywell AMCC-125 MetGlass core
with a square loop B-H curve and my initial tests yielded COP's of 1.19 to 1.70
until I discovered that I had measurement errors due to the instrumentation that
I was using on the outputs. At present, the best I've achieved realistically is
an efficiency of 92%. The majority of errors in measuring the outputs of the MEG
as presented in Bearden's paper are going to be due to parasitic and instrument
input capacitances. These, coupled with the secondaries self-capacitance due to
the high turns count, actually form a series resonant circuit with the leakage
inductance between the primaries and secondaries. What you end up with is a
parallel loaded series resonant equivalent. Current measurements done in the
secondary side are therefore  prone to error due to the input capacitance of the
measuring device(s) so only voltage measurements will provide accurate info on
the power across the resistive load. I would be happy to share my findings via
private email with you or anyone else interested, but the attachments total
650K.

Regards,

Jon Flickinger

VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>     Looking at the scope pictures at Naudins site I see:

<snip>

> The quest for OU bottom line: IT MUST SELF SUSTAIN
>
> Now that in mind, assuming the above data are correct, what would
> be the best way to get that ~480 volt output down to the ~30 volt DC
> needed for input?
> Transformerless if possible but efficiency counts big time here. The
> reason I say transformerless is that he is using a resistive load and
> there is the possibility that an inductive load would induce unwanted
> operating parameters.
>
>   Regards,
>   Vince Cockeram

<snip>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 12:23:14 2000
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:20:48 EST
Subject: Re: new energy company?
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Section 1.1 of the project summary at
http://www.wvnnetpert.com/prj-etcsummary.htm 
contained one line that may explain why the principals needed money:

<<$350,000 will be needed in order to reconcile past debts related to the 
advanced technology development.>>

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 13:36:33 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: new energy company?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:34:38 +1100
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In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:53:37 -0400:
[snip]
>My computer cannot view that PPT file in the referenced URL.  Please tell 
>me what the method shown appears to be.
Actually, I found it somewhat confusing. At the start they show a simple
diagram depicting two pieces of metal being merged. Then near the end of the
document, they show photos of the cone you describe, and indeed a cardboard
box with some duct tape, titled "Heat Calorimetry Experiment".
I'm afraid I fear the worst.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do 
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 15:09:38 2000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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>In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:53:37 -0400:
>[snip]
>>My computer cannot view that PPT file in the referenced URL.  Please tell 
>>me what the method shown appears to be.
>Actually, I found it somewhat confusing. At the start they show a simple
>diagram depicting two pieces of metal being merged. Then near the end of the
>document, they show photos of the cone you describe, and indeed a cardboard
>box with some duct tape, titled "Heat Calorimetry Experiment".
>I'm afraid I fear the worst.
>[snip]
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk


I believe Robin's and my fears are justified. I received a gif photo from 
a Vortexian from the PPT which shows the infamous cone and the very poor 
cardboard box "calorimeter."  My suspicion is that these guys have 
nothing new. I will await explanations from them.

Gene Mallove

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It is, after all, an oil company they
 are 'taking to the cleaners'...

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: 2000 November 20, Monday 04:35
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new energy company?


In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:53:37 -0400:
[snip]
>My computer cannot view that PPT file in the referenced URL.  Please tell
>me what the method shown appears to be.
Actually, I found it somewhat confusing. At the start they show a simple
diagram depicting two pieces of metal being merged. Then near the end of the
document, they show photos of the cone you describe, and indeed a cardboard
box with some duct tape, titled "Heat Calorimetry Experiment".
I'm afraid I fear the worst.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

It's no good just telling people to stop doing whatever they do
to earn a living...you have to show them a better way.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 16:22:27 2000
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:20:27 EST
Subject: Re: MEG v2.0 build by JL Naudin       
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In a message dated 11/19/00 12:18:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
VCockeram aol.com writes:

<<snip>>

>         Output of the device:
>  Output Frequency  ~33KHz
>  V and I sinusoidal and appear to be in phase
>  486.2 volts RMS 
>  48.08 milliamps RMS
>  Load resistor 10 ohms ceramic non-inductive.
>  
>  Now my question to all the AC power experts out there is:
>  Is the total AC power output more than the total DC power input?
>  The output is continuous 33 kHz at the RMS V and I listed above.
>
  
Thinking this out overnight I would think the best way to 
measure output power of this device would be to directly
rectify the ~480 volt output, add necessary filter caps to get 
nice ripple free DC, then use the DC and measure it across
a resistance load.
This way all the uncertainties of measuring AC will go away.
Comments?

  Regards,
  Vince Cockeram
  Las Vegas Nevada
  702-254-2122
  http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
  <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
Discharge</A>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 20:52:20 2000
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	Dear Vince, and folks,

	On addendum.... Vince's suggestion is OK... one further aspect:
	
	Try to use FAST diodes... or, if not easily available, then use an
appropriate, as to voltage and current, transistor and diode-connect the
transistor.  A germanium part is icing on the cake.
	Almost any TV horizontal flyback switching transistor is a good
candidate, make it a bridge ... then use a pair of steering diodes to feed
a capacitor... THEN ... another steering diode to the load resistor...

			J 


On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/19/00 12:18:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> VCockeram aol.com writes:
> 
> <<snip>>
> 
> >         Output of the device:
> >  Output Frequency  ~33KHz
> >  V and I sinusoidal and appear to be in phase
> >  486.2 volts RMS 
> >  48.08 milliamps RMS
> >  Load resistor 10 ohms ceramic non-inductive.
> >  
> >  Now my question to all the AC power experts out there is:
> >  Is the total AC power output more than the total DC power input?
> >  The output is continuous 33 kHz at the RMS V and I listed above.
> >
>   
> Thinking this out overnight I would think the best way to 
> measure output power of this device would be to directly
> rectify the ~480 volt output, add necessary filter caps to get 
> nice ripple free DC, then use the DC and measure it across
> a resistance load.
> This way all the uncertainties of measuring AC will go away.
> Comments?
> 
>   Regards,
>   Vince Cockeram
>   Las Vegas Nevada
>   702-254-2122
>   http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html
>   <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html">H2K Glow 
> Discharge</A>
> 

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John Berry wrote'

>  >if the long-overdue crash is to be staved off a bit longer.
>
>Your reasoning?
>Bush (the older one) destroyed the economy.
>Clinton has made it the most prosperous time for America.


I don't agree John, I'm no fan of either the Republicans or the 
Democrats, but the Democrats have been promising all kinds of new 
entitlements to various special interest groups, the costs of their 
promises are way more expensive than those proposed by the 
Republicans. We had a classic example here in Minnesota where our 
Senator elect Mark Dayton promised people perscription drugs at 
government expense. He used his personal fortune to broadcast ads 
which gave the people all kinds of benefits, he bought the senate 
seat with our own money.

Furthermore I don't give the Clinton administration credit for the 
economic good times. They came to power at a time when a 
technological revolution which had been building for 50 years came to 
fruition. This was compounded by cuts in the government's budget 
forced by a Republican controlled legislature.

Another thing. I disagree that a PE ratio of 10 is too high. It 
depends on whether the potential investors believe that the company's 
profits will continue to grow.

>
>Now do you give the country to the son of the guy who created lots 
>of the debt,
>and did bad stuff for the economy, indeed the 80's was a low all round.
>
>Or the Vice President of the guy who did amazing things for the economy?
>
>
>  > ________________
>>  Quote of the month:
>>
>>  "Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

Thanks to whoever posted this line for giving me a good laugh.

He didn't invent the internet, love story was not based on him and 
Tipper, There is a controlling authority that he is accountable to.


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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>email from Dan Winter</title></head><body>
<div>Given the level of interest that you Vortexians have shown for
developing an understanding of the nature of the atom and subatomic
particles, I think that you might find Dan's comments on their nature
interesting. Any comments would be appreciated.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
http://www.danwinter.com/warming/index.ht<span
></span>ml<br>
<br>
Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets &amp; videos.<br>
<br>
Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><font
size="+2"><b>Solution to Global Warming: ReArrange Land Magnetic
Lines...to the Embedable Geometry!</b></font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><font size="+2"><b>Golden
Ratio Based Stellated Forms Create Coolness because They Compress (in
Solar Fire) With No Heat</b></font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>by Dan Winter, 11/11/00, - (to
unsubscribe hit reply, subject-'unsubscribe')<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>url: <a
href="http://www.danwinter.com/warming"
>http://www.danwinter.com/warming</a> , other Articles: <a
href="http://www.danwinter.com/sitemap.html"
>http://www.danwinter.com/sitemap.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>At its deepest level, Global Warming may
destroy our genepool because of failure to understand a simple
principle. When a long wave system (like the Earth as a magnetic
body) fails to embed or become COMPRESSIBLE (become fractal), then
COMPRESSION (the Sun's 2000-2012 orgasm) will necessarily create HEAT
(destructive interference / emotively identical to fear ). (Physics
behind the religious notion of RAPTURE). This may have exceedingly
practical implications for scientists trying to discover what wave
systems SHAPES naturally become 'COOL'. (Visualize Bill Witherspoon -
bwith lisco.com Desert Sri Yantra plowed furrows from 8,000 feet 1/4
mile square -filled with PARAMAGNETIC sand - <a
href="http://www.artheals.org/artists/Witherspoon_Bill_177"
>http://www.artheals.org/artists/Witherspo<span
></span>on_Bill_177</a> , measuring bioregion climate change
-increased rain- effected by long magnetic lines woven in the
soil..)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>I like the nature of this challenge to
survive our genepool, because it inherently also teaches the same
electrical geometry (for planets) which create bliss and compassion
in the EKG - and thus potentially create the electrical implosion
there which implode/ensouls (phonon braid align programs) DNA. (thru
lightspeed penetration : pics at<b> danwinter.com/magneticx</b>
and<b> danwinter.com/superDNA</b><font size="-1"> (links at
sitemap)</font> ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>In a way, the test that our planet would
survive if we learn compression (by Solar Fire) with no heat - is
spiritually appropriate. The symmetry of embedding or nesting
determines survival because it is what allows little waves to survive
inside of bigger ones. (see 'superlooping' in Dr. Irving Dardik's
notion of what eliminates all chronic disease in Heart Rate
Variability -<b> danwinter.com/dardik</b><font size="-1"> ( link at
sitemap)</font> ). This survival of the smaller life inside the
larger by fractal relations applies as well to heart beat as wave
within heart rate as wave within breath as wave.. etc, to people as
wave/lifeform within solar system within galaxy etc. Successful
superlooping is measureable as the cause of BLISS (approach to charge
density) in the HeartLink EKG spectrum analysis. Excess heat is the
definer of whether the lesson of embedding has been learned, since
heat is only the name for destructive wave interference, and as such
it is the report that unshareable (symmetrically un-fractal) memories
have been stored. Mortality (susceptibility to experiencing death) is
what human's call this habit of storing un-shareable
(un-compressible) waves/emotion. (<b> danwinter.com/eternal</b><font
size="-1"> (link at sitemap)</font> ). Dwelling only on pure
principle, (fractally) attracts such charge density (tingle) (which
Christian's in their parasitic refusal to talk science call 'spirit'
), that wave decay (death) is elminated. (becomes biologically
unneccesary to enforce the needs of waves to survive / become
sustainable - DNA is a compressor enforcer for life force into faster
than light sustainability). (further reading: at<b>
danwinter.com/search</b> enter 'ensoulment' ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Viktor Schauberger (&quot;Living
Water&quot; book, and see also Coates book) is well known to have
built a large EGG shaped housing for a huge WATER VORTEX which was
documented to make electricity from spinning water alone, with no
known source of energy. (It was not a vortex at the bottom of a pipe
like Niagara Falls hydroelectric - it was ONLY a spun vortex inside a
closed EGG shaped container).. The spun mineral doped water vortex
generated so much electricity from the gravitational field, that
Hitler bought the project.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><b>THE KEY TO SOLVING GLOBAL WARMING
lies in the fact that - Schauberger could tell the moment at which
the high voltage piezoelectric water vortex was about to begin
generating power - WHEN THE TEMPERATURE OF THE WATER BEGAN TO GO
RADICALLY COLDER!</b> (Increased COLDness = increased ORDER = less
internal destructive wave interference). He called this<b>
implosion,</b> and discussed the fact that perfect embedding or
recursion was in fact the idealized principle of FLOW. He even got
CLOSE to realizing that the essence of this principle HOW TO IMPLODE
based on FLOW embedding/recursion/branching was PHI - the Golden Mean
Ratio.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/eggland.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/eggspiral.gif"
align="bottom"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/squigglespout.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/eggdimple.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Sea Urchin egg responds
to the capacitive charge wave called SPERM arrival, by DIMPLING -
turning inside out - LEARNING TO HAVE GUTS!<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&quot;It forms a gut by
folding inward (left) until it's cells reach the opposite
side&quot;.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">I have come to call this
process (GETTING BORN) : - LEARNING HOW TO TURN INSIDE OUT.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Below here from the
literature we note another biological topo map for optimum
spin/charge de-compressing (otherwise known as a FETUS!)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/fetalmap.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">The point for discovering
how to ESCAPE HEAT, is in the recursion geometry of perfect EGG-ness.
We track our genetic roots to the first woman &quot;Eve&quot; in
Africa due to the literal fractality of EGG cell mitochondria. The
foldedness on surface becomes so self embedded, the fractal amount of
'coastline' goes toward inPHIknit. Your mothers Egg born whole and
fractal inside her mother, inside her mother, inside her mother....
creating a perfect biologically grounding fractal tornado wormhole
contiguous in it's fold between you now, and the &quot;big bang'.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">If turning the inside
into the shape of what is outside, becomes the suction to center we
call compassion - then this new COOL insight may hold a key to
keeping our planetary cool...!<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/dodec-bubble2.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Perfect embedding SUCKS!
(becoming sacred / sustainable means assuming the position/geometry
which can change scale without changing ratio ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Acheiving
'NON-DESTRUCTIVE COMPRESSION' (NO-HEAT GENERATED - same as NO FEAR
emoto-magnetically) requires ASSUMING THE POSITION called
de-VINE-ness (which means perfect PHI - Golden Ratio based branching
/ nesting).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">This can be accomplished
on the land, in the same way the EKG accomplishes this at the moment
of BLISS and COMPASSION (pictures at<b> danwinter.com/dimple</b><font
size="-1"> (link at sitemap)</font> ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">The heart discovers a way
to nest it's harmonics in such a way as to create EMBEDDING. This
creates the electrical RUSH (implosion) we call BLISS. ... and sucks
'inside out' the magnetism (FEELING) which was outside, IN to inside.
This creates the identification (eye-dent-eye-tie) of what was
outside with was IS inside. Hence, magnetic EMBEDDING IS the
electrically accurate DESCRIPTION (topologically) of COMPASSION.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/dimple/dimpling.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">animation at<b>
danwinter.com/grail.html</b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Above and below - dodeca
/ icosa stellating Earth grid magnetics permits us to embed and thus
survive ... heat?<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/earthgridodsm.jpg"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/gridnest.jpg"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">(above) Outside - 12
faced dodec zodiac, mid sphere dodec Earth, inner sphere dodec core
which wratchets into DNA..<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/HEARTGEO.jpg"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/HEARTGEO2.jpg"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/MAZmation.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">3D Spin Stellation of
(inPHIknitly continuing - ) Dodec / Icos Embedding - (DNA / Earth
Grid / Zodiac) - known as &quot;Greater Maze in Theosophy&quot; -
note each vertex x,y &amp; z coordinate is a whole number Phi/Golden
Ratio Multiple - This is how and why Phi heterodyning implodes by
adding and multiplying wave lengths and velocities recursively -
solving Einstein's puzzle to understand infinite compression. - key
to the unified field. (Wave recursion creating gravity as the
electrical name for successful charge compressing).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">See below it is the
Self-Similarity or Fractal (wave collapsing) relationship of the
ELECTRON SHELLS... - (compare Platonic Symmetry in Electronic nesting
TO nuclear particle nesting)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">-<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/electrons.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/stargroup.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">to the NUCLEUS (also as
platonic symmetry array - 'self similar' to what is outside -
inside)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><img
src="http://www.danwinter.com/warming/neucleus.gif"
align="bottom"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">..which CREATES Gravity!
(Gravity: A 'wind' of capacitance or charge which has become
implosively self centering. - see Hodowanec and Ramsey measures of
subtle gravity waves using capacitors..)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">The SURVIVAL DRAMA
gravity of this 'matter' may be a good tickler for our genepool to
learn the survival skill called embedding. The media is currently
bombarded with the news that Global Warming models, for temperature
increase during this century have just gone off the survival charts
(10-20 degree average rise instead of the originally predicted
0-6).<b> The meaning: unless we figure this out, out genepool will
clearly not see the survive the next hundred years.</b></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><b>Not only does
arrangement of long wave magnetic lines / geomancy/ 'planet taming'
determine how successfully a planet can hold on to it's atmosphere
(discussion begins at - danwinter.com/phirestorm ).. but<font
size="+1"> long magnetic lines arranged into charge embedding /
fractality determine how well a planet can dissipate it's heat
..</font></b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center"><b>Ask yourself is the
collected Earth bound effect of human DNA currently more a creator of
destructive than constructive wave interference... remembering that
in biology constructive wave interference is called PHIlotaxis
precisely because such perfect nest-ability it is based on the
principle of PHI - the Golden Mean. ... (And while remembering the
COOL tingle of compassion based BLISS.... inPHIknit-ty in the EKG..)
 From the perspective of the accountant paying God's electric bill,
this will answer the question of whether our genepool is symbiotic to
our planet and worth 'saving' ... in light of the Sun.</b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Heat is merely a measure
of disorderly motion. In other words: it is DESTRUCTIVE compression.
Becoming cool, under conditions of compression (like Schauberger
showed in IMPLOSION flow), is to become NON-desctructively
compressible ... or 'scale invariant' . (discussion at<b>
danwinter.com/scaleinvariant</b><font size="-1"> (link at
sitemap)</font> ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">On a planet wide scale,
we need to learn to re-arrange our long wave magnetic lines to this
geometry.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">The irony of course is,
that this attempt is as old as paramagnetic starmaps on the land.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite
align="center"><b>danwinter.com/eldorado</b> (link at sitemap)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Soul groups only enter
stars if they use the land as a magnetic lens to squirt their
magnetism in the upward djed / shem , exactly as the bee queens DNA
becomes such a map to where the sweetness is in the fold of the land,
that her blood map BECOMES the terrain. (<b>
danwinter.com/honey</b><font size="-1"> (link at sitemap)</font>
).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">Yet accomplishing this
skill to embed fields necessarily begins with the skill to have
compassion, because this choice to experience feeling, is exactly
that symmetry nesting learned in the Heart!
(<b>danwinter.com/summary</b><font size="-1"> (link at
sitemap)</font> ).<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite align="center">&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 19 21:37:54 2000
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Subject: hole in my head
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This story talks about an emplantable computer electrode. I had the 
same idea, but deceided that I didn't need another hole in my head.
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,40194,00.html

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Subject: Re: ANS Route me
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>Hi I'm back from the ANS Washington meeting.  I video taped what I could.  I


-- 
Thomas Malloy
Minnesota Real Estate Broker
2433 S. 16 Ave.
Minneapolis, MN 55404 USA
Phone 612 722 0069
fax      413 647 9599

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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:38:08 -0600
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>Eugene Mallove wrote;



>This news about ETC is mind-boggling, because our lab (NERL) in 1998
>checked out *a* rotary heat device from Conner and Racich for over a week
>  and found no evidence whatsover of over-unity.  In fact, we found the
>obvious explicit reason why the Brookhaven National Lab  recommended test
>(which Connor and Racich had employed) was flawed, producing a claimed
>13/1 over unity -- 200 watts in and 2600 watts out.

Thanks for the heads up on ETC, Eugene.  You would think that a 
sophisticated company like Chandler Energy would have the savy to do 
their due diligence, particularly where $6+ million is involved.

I emailed Mike Conner at the mailbox posted and inquired about what 
is ment by high spin. If any of you have any insights in to what this 
term means, they would be appreciated. Does anyone have any URL's for 
an explanation of ETC's technology? I first encountered the term in 
1995 when David Hudson addressed the Global Sciences Conference. 
Given the implications of high spin state Rhodium masquerading as 
iron, not to mention high spin state gold. I've brought the subject 
up to anyone I thought might shed some light on it.

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Vorts -

Found on the "Coast to Coast with Mike Siegel" radio show web site 
(formerly Art Bell). Don't know if this is new or a tape of a former 
interview. Anyone in the know care to comment?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

11/20/00 - Mon/Tue


Guest: Dr. Eugene Mallove


Dr. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief and Publisher of Infinite Energy 
Magazine will discuss cold fusion and new energy technology. Dr. 
Mallove holds a Master of Science Degree and Bachelor of Science 
Degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from MIT and a 
Science Doctorate in Environmental Health Sciences from Harvard 
University.

Book: Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor
Website: www.infinite-energy.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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>Vorts -
>
>Found on the "Coast to Coast with Mike Siegel" radio show web site 
>(formerly Art Bell). Don't know if this is new or a tape of a former 
>interview. Anyone in the know care to comment?

This is a completely new show -- LIVE from Bow, NH from 1:00 a.m. to 5:00 
a.m.! Need coffee...

Gene
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>11/20/00 - Mon/Tue
>
>
>Guest: Dr. Eugene Mallove
>
>
>Dr. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief and Publisher of Infinite Energy 
>Magazine will discuss cold fusion and new energy technology. Dr. 
>Mallove holds a Master of Science Degree and Bachelor of Science 
>Degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from MIT and a 
>Science Doctorate in Environmental Health Sciences from Harvard 
>University.
>
>Book: Fire from Ice: Searching for the Truth Behind the Cold Fusion Furor
>Website: www.infinite-energy.com
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 06:00:04 2000
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One might argue that recombination with electrons with the atoms at 
the cathode in  electrolysis cells could result in phosphorescence effects
as the electrons "settle in" to various energy levels over time, thus giving off infrared
photons/heat?

http://www.shu.ac.uk/schools/sci/chem/tutorials/molspec/lumin1.htm

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 06:48:48 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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References: <v04011700b636fee7fbdc [207.8.127.153]>
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>other one and of themselves by their actions.  No wonder the vote is so close,
>they are both equally bad.

This does not follow. A close vote might indicate they are equally good, or 
equally bland. Perhaps low turnout indicates a lack of enthusiasm, but then 
again it might mean that most voters would be satisfied with either 
candidate and see no particular reason to participate. Voter turnout 
increases during disasters, depressions and wars, and decreases when times 
are good.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 07:24:37 2000
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Nov. 20, 2,000

Vortex,

I posted in part about the three principals in ETC:

> All three are now (or always were?) vp's of ETC.

What I meant to report was that all three are now, or always were, vp's of
the Chandler Group.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 09:21:05 2000
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:17:26 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>>other one and of themselves by their actions.  No wonder the vote is so
>>close,
>>they are both equally bad.
>
>This does not follow. A close vote might indicate they are equally good, or
>equally bland. Perhaps low turnout indicates a lack of enthusiasm, but then
>again it might mean that most voters would be satisfied with either
>candidate and see no particular reason to participate. Voter turnout
>increases during disasters, depressions and wars, and decreases when times
>are good.
>
>- Jed

***{Voter turnout in U.S. presidential races tends to be lower than in
other countries, primarily due to the electoral college system: even if the
race is close nationwide, turnout is low in states where the race is not
close, because the number of electoral votes cast by a state is fixed. (For
example, because the typical person sees no point in voting if the
electoral votes of his state have already been decided, turnout is hurt in
states where the result is called before the polls close. Thus the early
call of Florida for Gore has been estimated to have cost Bush tens of
thousands of votes in heavily republican western Florida, where the polls
were still open when the call was made.) And in mid-term elections, the
percentages tend to be even lower, because of the lack of races at the
national level. (In the 1996 elections, the turnout was 49% of registered
voters, and in the mid-term elections of 1998, the turnout was a mere 38%.)

The 2000 election, however, based on early reports that I heard in the wee
hours of election night, apparently attracted about a 65% turnout, which is
unusually large by U.S. standards. I haven't seen any final numbers yet,
but I expect that they will be high as well.

--Mitchell Jones}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 10:00:44 2000
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Jed,
I may be all wet, but I get the following impression from the many elections I
have witnessed.
About 20%, give or take about 5%, of the population will vote Republican and an
equal number will vote Democratic regardless of the issues.  These are people who
have a single emotional issue or always vote that way because it's a family
tradition.  When thinking, educated people stay home, the election is determined
by these nearly equal numbers.  When an important issue comes up, thinking people
contribute unequal numbers to this base and the election becomes more clear cut.
I suggest that the number of nonthinking people is increasing and that elections
will become closer in the future with emotional issues becoming more important.
In addition, I believe that, in general, the thinking people in this election
found little reason to vote for either candidate. When they did vote, Nader was
favored.  He would have gotten more votes except that thinking people are more
afraid of Bush than Gore, hence voted for Gore rather than risk a Bush victory
As a result, Gore came out slightly ahead.  However, thanks to Florida, an
emotional hotbed, we may get Bush anyway. The other candidates known to be favored
by contributors to Vortex are just too extreme to make any useful contribution to
the debate.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >other one and of themselves by their actions.  No wonder the vote is so close,
> >they are both equally bad.
>
> This does not follow. A close vote might indicate they are equally good, or
> equally bland. Perhaps low turnout indicates a lack of enthusiasm, but then
> again it might mean that most voters would be satisfied with either
> candidate and see no particular reason to participate. Voter turnout
> increases during disasters, depressions and wars, and decreases when times
> are good.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 10:24:31 2000
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I think this more important than the election.

 http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/11/20/climate.conference.02/index.html

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 10:38:30 2000
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Hi James,

Assuming you had not yet disassembled your setup (DONT DO IT), 
you may power it again in setups described below:

1) Original setup. purpose to test the reproducibility of the effect.

2) Same setup with reversed polarities. 

3) Tilt the setup by 90 degrees. Capacitor plates would be oriented vertically.

4) Same as 3, but reversed polarities.

5) same as 3 but turned by 90 degrees horizontally.

It may be useful to orient plates (in setup 3) to a know direction (i.e. outer positive plate face to north) rather than to an arbitrary chosen direction.

You may take measures after half a minute, and another one minute later.

Please report the results. These results would help to understand the nature effect.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 13:23:55 2000
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Subject: Cold fusion at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Last week I attended the cold fusion session at the American nuclear 
society (ANS) on Wednesday and Thursday, and on Friday Nov. 17 I attended 
the Low-energy Nuclear Reactions Educational Workshop 2000 (LENREW), 
sponsored by Integrity Research Institute (www.integrity-research.org). 
Many of the speakers from the Thursday session of the ANS repeated their 
presentations at the LENREW the next day, so there was not much point to 
attending both. Both sessions were well attended by the standards of cold 
fusion; 30 or 40 people showed up at the ANS, and 50 people attended 
LENREW. Aside from the speakers, the participants were a completely 
different crowd, presumably because the ANS cost hundreds of dollars to 
attend, whereas LENREW cost $50. The LENREW attracted a surprising number 
of senior scientists from the Washington area, including two physicists 
from Howard University who told me they replicated the underwater carbon 
arc experiments and they are anxious to get in touch with Japanese 
researchers who performed that experiment.

The schedules at both meetings were chock-full, leaving little time to 
discuss the papers or hold a panel discussion at the end.

I felt that the overall quality of the papers was poor. The good 
presentations were not new, and the new ones were not good. Most compelling 
papers about experiments were scheduled for Thursday, but unfortunately the 
Wednesday half-day session attracted the largest number of "outsiders" 
(people unfamiliar with the field), and reporters including Ron Dagani. I 
urge Dagani to come back on Thursday to hear McKubre and Mizuno, but he did 
not. Many of the papers were devoted to theory. At the recent JCF2 
conference, most papers were about experiments. It seems Americans cannot 
afford to do experiments, so they theorize instead. Takahashi is considered 
the leading Japanese theorist. His ideas are backed up by copious evidence 
from ion beam experiments at his own university, and glow discharge 
research at Hokkaido and Iwate Universities.

Before the conference, the ANS abstracts were available on the web at 
www.ans.org, but they seem to be gone now that the meetings over. I cannot 
find them anyway, and I do not have complete set of copies. If someone 
knows where they are stored, or you have copies, please let me know.

Here are my impressions and opinions of some of the papers. In previous 
conference reports I skipped papers I found unimpressive or unimportant. 
This time I think I will mention a few of them. For the actual content of 
the papers, please see the abstracts. Papers are not listed here in the 
order in which they were presented.

Hal Fox described a mishmash of over-unity energy devices, including cold 
fusion-like claims from Mills, a high-density charge cluster device made by 
Ken Shoulders, and a variety of weird claims such as AquaFuel, MagneGas, 
and a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" invented by Thomas Bearden et 
al. As far as I know, none of these devices has ever been independently 
replicated or verified, and most of them have been around for years, so I 
do not give them one ounce of credibility. Perhaps that makes me a stick in 
the mud reactionary, but so be it. I like Hal Fox personally, but I think 
he lacks judgment, and he is too willing to accept claims at face value.

Dufour discussed experiments that apparently speed up natural fission 
reactions in uranium, similar to nuclear waste remediation experiments that 
various people have described. Dufour talks about a great deal of theory, 
but at least it is backed up by experiments that he himself has performed. 
This is fascinating stuff, but I do not have a good understanding of it. I 
may comment after I have a chance to listen to the tape and review his 
ICC-7 paper.

Goddard & Dash discussed another interesting uranium experiment, which I 
hope to describe later on.

Matsumoto showed his usual collection of strange microphotographs, which 
mean nothing to me and little to other people. The only comments I have 
ever heard about them from other scientists, such as Oriani, is that they 
show ordinary and well understood electrochemical phenomena which Matsumoto 
takes as evidence of gravitational collapse (black holes) in microscopic areas.

McKubre described helium findings in the Case experiments, in a lecture 
similar to the one he gave at ICCF-8. He made some interesting new comments 
too, but my tape recorder batteries ran out of and I do not recall exactly 
what he said!

Melvin Miles described experiments with palladium-boron cathodes and China 
Lake and the NHE. Over the years, he has experienced the highest success 
rate with palladium-boron alloys. He listed several reasons people have 
proposed to explain why this particular alloy works well, including the 
theory that the boron takes part in the nuclear reaction. He does not 
believe this; he attributes success to mundane chemical causes, such as the 
fact that boron removes oxygen from molten cathode metal. Also, boron loads 
and deloads more slowly than pure palladium. Miles showed an interesting 
set of three graphs showing his temperature data analyzed by his own 
calorimetry equations; by Fleischman's equations; and by the NHE method. 
The NHE claimed that Miles did not observe excess heat, but only large 
perturbations above and below the zero line. Miles and Fleischman believe 
the NHE reached this conclusion because they used only one calibration 
point from a 0.2500 watt heat pulse on day three at the beginning of the 
run, and they did not realize that the system was already generating excess 
heat when this pulse was applied. This mistake shifts the rest of the data 
down by about half the value of the excess heat, so that instead of going 
200 milliwatts above the zero line, back to zero, and then up about 200 
milliwatts again, the NHE graph shows the heat level wandering up 100 
milliwatts and then down a negative 100 milliwatts below the zero line. No 
endothermic reaction was possible at that stage; a minus 100 mW would have 
to be noise, so NHE scientists concluded that the noise level was 
approximately 100 milliwatts, and the excursions above and below the zero 
line are meaningless. The graphs based on the Miles and Fleischman methods 
do not show any excursions below the zero line. Miles, Imam and Fleischman 
are writing an extensive report about the NHE experiments which will be 
published by the NRL in a few months.

Mizuno described the plasma electrolysis results covered in the recent JJAP 
paper, and described here by me. He showed some data taken with his latest, 
much improved instrumentation.

Bruce Cain posted an interesting abstract, but he was not able to attend 
the conference.

Kenny described a nice little experiment designed for undergraduates, with 
an innovative cell design. They detect increased radiation with a GM 
counter when palladium is electrolyzed in heavy water. The experiment takes 
only two hours and it always works. The results are only one or two Sigma 
at this stage, but perhaps it can be improved and this may impress many 
people. The cell design eliminates the water and glass barrier, which may 
be the biggest problem people have encountered trying to detect weak 
radiation from cold fusion cells.

Oriani discussed a mind-boggling experiment stirring water. He has what 
looks like a miniature version of the Griggs ultrasonic device: spinning 
rotors with holes in them. He detects bursts of excess heat, in 
unpredictable patterns. His presentation was disappointing, It was cursory 
with crude, hand-drawn graphs showing no indication of the units or values. 
This performance was surprising because Oriani is a consummate professional 
electrochemist. The heat bursts are shown as relative temperature rises, 
with no indication of the absolute power level. He did not even mention 
absolute power. In private discussions, I learned that he tried to measure 
the heat rigorously with a Seebeck calorimeter he fabricated himself, but 
he was not satisfied with results. I gather the excess heat bursts are a 
watt or two, but he is not even made a crude attempt to find out. All he 
knows is that the temperature goes up when it should remain stable. His 
calorimeter did not work well. It does not have enough thermocouples per 
square cm in the wall, so it is sensitive to the position of the apparatus. 
Our Seebeck calorimeter would not be large enough to hold both the motor 
and the vessel, but perhaps we could pass the shaft through the top and 
ignore heat losses to air from the motor. Oriani did not make it clear that 
he used an oscilloscope to be sure the speed of rotation was constant, and 
a simple power meter to ensure that no extra energy went into the motor 
during the heat bursts. Characteristically, when he got involved in this, 
he carefully reviewed J. P. Joule's original experiments stirring water, 
which were performed at much lower RPMs. Oriani's lecture gave an 
incomplete and unsatisfactory impression of this work. People who do not 
know him may write this off as a crackpot experiment, which is a shame, 
because it probably deserves attention.

Miley described thin film experiments in a presentation similar to his 
ICCF-8 paper. The results seem impressive, but I'm not satisfied with his 
calorimetry, and I think the geometry of his glass slides, with the anode 
immediately below the cathode, will cause recombination. Miley reported 
that he has recently shipped glass slides cathodes to us, and we shipped 
them to Ed Storms, who tested them in a Seebeck envelope calorimeter. 
Storms did not observe any excess heat. Miley thinks this is because the 
thin film cracked and deliminated, which did not happen with the glass 
slide cathodes tested at the University of Illinois. He suspects the glass 
surface was made too rough before the thin film was applied. This left 
hills and valleys forming sharp protrusions which put too much stress on 
the thin film. He hopes to make replacement cathodes, which he will send to 
Storms for testing.

Swartz described calorimetry, his optimal operating point (OOP) hypothesis, 
and excess heat results from a variety of cathodes. He reports the highest 
input to output ratio with nickel cathodes and gold anodes. He claims 
output is as much as 30 times input, and he is even converting some of the 
heat output to electricity. If this is true, these are among the most 
impressive cold fusion results ever reported. However, I do not believe 
these claims, for the following reasons:

1. His calorimeter is not standard, and he claims unbelievably high levels 
of precision and accuracy for it. Extraordinary claims require ordinary 
proof -- the most ordinary proof you can muster. You must use standard, 
uncontroversial, off-the-shelf equipment whenever possible, not exotic, 
one-of-a-kind instruments. The excess power levels that Swartz claims he 
has reached could easily be measured with ordinary equipment.

2. His theories about flow calorimetry are incorrect.

3. As far as I know, these results have never been independently verified 
or replicated. I never believe results which have not been replicated. 
Swartz once claimed that these results have been independently replicated, 
but he refused to tell me the names and telephone numbers of the 
researchers who replicated, so I cannot use this information.

Hagelstein, Chubb, Violante, Bass, Takahashi, Li, Znidarsic and others 
described theories. Perhaps one of them will be kind enough to give us a 
summary of these presentations, which were over my head. During the closing 
discussions, I remarked that there seems to be a gap between theories that 
explain the deuterium fusion-like reactions producing helium, and what 
appears to be cold nuclear fission resulting in transmutations. There is a 
similar gap in experiments; McKubre has found helium, others find 
transmutations, but few people appear to be looking for both. I remarked 
that it seems to me reconciling these two branches is one of the most 
important job for theorists and experimentalists at this stage. Scott Chubb 
denied there is a gap in the theories. He feels the good theories can 
explain both phenomena. McKubre said that they checked palladium cathodes 
for signs of transmutations some years ago. They found confusing, 
unconvincing evidence of foreign material with possible isotope shifts. 
McKubre seems convinced that his experiments produce "d-d fusion products" 
-- quoting the title of his paper. The helium is "commensurate" meaning it 
is within ~5% of the expected value for a plasma fusion-like reaction. In 
informal discussions after LENREW, Chubb and other theorists told me helium 
might also be a byproduct of cold nuclear fission, but they hedged when I 
asked whether the production rate would be so close to that of d-d fusion. 
Some said it might be a great deal higher, or lower. It seems like a 
fantastic coincidence that it should be this close. In his summary 
viewgraphs, Takahashi listed a deuterium - palladium fusion path with 
various ramifications, and a hydrogen fission reaction path. I gather he 
means a d-d fusion probably occurs with deuterium with palladium, whereas 
light water systems with other metals undergo a different set of fission 
reactions. If that is what he means, I think he is wrong. Bockris, Mizuno 
and Iwamura examined cathodes from deuterium - palladium systems and found 
overwhelming evidence of transmutations in the palladium.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 13:52:05 2000
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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Edmund Storms wrote:


>I may be all wet, but I get the following impression from the many elections I
>have witnessed.
>About 20%, give or take about 5%, of the population will vote Republican 
>and an
>equal number will vote Democratic regardless of the issues.  These are 
>people who
>have a single emotional issue or always vote that way because it's a family
>tradition.  When thinking, educated people stay home, the election is 
>determined
>by these nearly equal numbers.  When an important issue comes up, thinking 
>people
>contribute unequal numbers to this base and the election becomes more 
>clear cut.

When important issues come up, turnout increases, but I do not see why this 
would make elections closer or farther apart. The population might be 
evenly split on a hard-fought, important issue, such as rearmament in 1940, 
when Congress voted to preserve the U.S. army with a majority of one vote.

Actually, the era of huge turnout ended in the 1890s with the introduction 
of the secret ballot, first in Australia, then the United States. Prior to 
that, party regulars would sit at the poles and watch closely who you voted 
for -- a blue ballot for the Republicans, or a red ballot for the 
Democrats. (In most locales only straight party tickets were allowed; you 
could not pick individual candidates.) Depending on who you voted for, 
party goons would either pay you off or beat the crap out of you. This 
encouraged high turnout, but it was not very democratic. The secret ballot 
made it impossible to know whether votes once bought would stay bought.

I think the close tally in the recent election was caused by the fact that 
both sides have now perfected focus groups, mass media political 
advertising, computerized pole taking, and other techniques for "selling" 
candidates. In the absence of compelling issues, these Madison Avenue 
techniques dictated the outcome. Since both sides are equally good at them, 
and since many of the techniques are designed to discourage the opposition 
rather than encourage one's own supporters, the results is a tight campaign 
and low turnout.


>I suggest that the number of nonthinking people is increasing . . .

Why would that be? Has the genetic makeup of the population changed? Has 
there been a fundamental change to our culture or average educational 
attainment in the last generation? I doubt it! I think that people who 
believe previous elections were in some sense more noble or generally more 
issues-oriented have a romantic view of history. Old-time elections I have 
read about in detail were steeped in graft, violence, intimidation, vote 
buying, pork-and-whiskey barrel handouts at the polls, pandering to racism, 
and violent, hate filled rhetoric that would instantly cost the election 
today. Today's elections in comparison are cerebral, ultra-polite, and dull 
as dishwater.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 15:17:46 2000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >I may be all wet, but I get the following impression from the many elections I
> >have witnessed.
> >About 20%, give or take about 5%, of the population will vote Republican
> >and an
> >equal number will vote Democratic regardless of the issues.  These are
> >people who
> >have a single emotional issue or always vote that way because it's a family
> >tradition.  When thinking, educated people stay home, the election is
> >determined
> >by these nearly equal numbers.  When an important issue comes up, thinking
> >people
> >contribute unequal numbers to this base and the election becomes more
> >clear cut.
>
> When important issues come up, turnout increases, but I do not see why this
> would make elections closer or farther apart. The population might be
> evenly split on a hard-fought, important issue, such as rearmament in 1940,
> when Congress voted to preserve the U.S. army with a majority of one vote.
>
> Actually, the era of huge turnout ended in the 1890s with the introduction
> of the secret ballot, first in Australia, then the United States. Prior to
> that, party regulars would sit at the poles and watch closely who you voted
> for -- a blue ballot for the Republicans, or a red ballot for the
> Democrats. (In most locales only straight party tickets were allowed; you
> could not pick individual candidates.) Depending on who you voted for,
> party goons would either pay you off or beat the crap out of you. This
> encouraged high turnout, but it was not very democratic. The secret ballot
> made it impossible to know whether votes once bought would stay bought.
>
> I think the close tally in the recent election was caused by the fact that
> both sides have now perfected focus groups, mass media political
> advertising, computerized pole taking, and other techniques for "selling"
> candidates. In the absence of compelling issues, these Madison Avenue
> techniques dictated the outcome. Since both sides are equally good at them,
> and since many of the techniques are designed to discourage the opposition
> rather than encourage one's own supporters, the results is a tight campaign
> and low turnout.

Surely this factor plays a role.  However, thinking people are relatively immune
to such low level manipulation, hence this works only to get more of the
emotionites to vote while keeping most thinkers at home.

>
> >I suggest that the number of nonthinking people is increasing . . .
>
> Why would that be? Has the genetic makeup of the population changed? Has
> there been a fundamental change to our culture or average educational
> attainment in the last generation?

Yes, I think there has been a change.  The ability to think clearly is a learned
talent as much as a genetic one.  We learn this process from many sources, most of
which have been corrupted to appeal to the lowest level, hence sell to a larger
population.  In fact, clear thinking in a population of consumers is not useful to
the seller.  I think you will agree, compared to Europe and Japan, the US
population is sinking in its ability to process complex relationships, an
important part of clear thinking.  We are at the bottom in math, and the study of
science is becoming increasingly unpopular.  Even the study of history is low on
any students list of activities.  Without such tools and information, clear
thinking about the big picture is impossible.  As a result, people, even
intelligent ones, increasingly vote their emotions.

> I doubt it! I think that people who
> believe previous elections were in some sense more noble or generally more
> issues-oriented have a romantic view of history. Old-time elections I have
> read about in detail were steeped in graft, violence, intimidation, vote
> buying, pork-and-whiskey barrel handouts at the polls, pandering to racism,
> and violent, hate filled rhetoric that would instantly cost the election
> today. Today's elections in comparison are cerebral, ultra-polite, and dull
> as dishwater.

Not being that old, I have no memory of such elections.  The ones I remember
involved the Vietnam war and various economic issues.  These, while involving some
graft, violence and intimidation, were on the whole an honest representation of
the public will, such as it was. However, in those days, the radio, later TV, and
always the newspapers gave important background information.  Now, such detail is
missing or presented in way to manipulate or entertain.  It is no longer possible
to think clearly about the present issues using information presented in the
popular media.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 20 22:39:06 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:36:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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>Ed Storms and jed Rothwell wrote;
>
>>I suggest that the number of nonthinking people is increasing . . .
>
>Why would that be? Has the genetic makeup of the population changed? 
>Has there been a fundamental change to our culture or average 
>educational attainment in the last generation? I doubt it!
>- Jed

I agree with Ed, I blame TV. and the welfare state.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 05:58:54 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Startech
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Ahoy!

I've been following this outfit for a while, they have a plasma based, gas
producing technology similar to the Santilli group's technology.  Their
claims are quite extraordinary.  They've been getting some pretty hot press
recently, CBS put them on MarketWatch, they have gotten contracts to install
some small units, one that I know of in Rhode Island, and I read the other
day that they got the nod from the Egytian government to proceed on
negotiations for some very large units.  The valuation of that contract is
estimated by Startech to be worth around $300,000,000.  That's in US bueno
bucks.

Either their poop really floats, or this is truly a world class con job.  I
think it probably is the former case, and is worth a closer examination.  I
know it is not cold fusion, but it is a non-polluting, financially
attractive looking alternative to present day fuels.

http://www.startech.net/

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 08:11:09 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:08:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>
>>I may be all wet, but I get the following impression from the many
>>elections I
>>have witnessed.
>>About 20%, give or take about 5%, of the population will vote Republican
>>and an
>>equal number will vote Democratic regardless of the issues.  These are
>>people who
>>have a single emotional issue or always vote that way because it's a family
>>tradition.  When thinking, educated people stay home, the election is
>>determined
>>by these nearly equal numbers.  When an important issue comes up, thinking
>>people
>>contribute unequal numbers to this base and the election becomes more
>>clear cut.
>
>When important issues come up, turnout increases, but I do not see why this
>would make elections closer or farther apart. The population might be
>evenly split on a hard-fought, important issue, such as rearmament in 1940,
>when Congress voted to preserve the U.S. army with a majority of one vote.
>
>Actually, the era of huge turnout ended in the 1890s with the introduction
>of the secret ballot, first in Australia, then the United States. Prior to
>that, party regulars would sit at the poles and watch closely who you voted
>for -- a blue ballot for the Republicans, or a red ballot for the
>Democrats. (In most locales only straight party tickets were allowed; you
>could not pick individual candidates.) Depending on who you voted for,
>party goons would either pay you off or beat the crap out of you. This
>encouraged high turnout, but it was not very democratic. The secret ballot
>made it impossible to know whether votes once bought would stay bought.

***{The secret ballot makes it possible for the advocates of big
government, who comprise a disproportionate majority of the public
employees who conduct elections and count results, to steal elections
without meaningful oversight. As we have seen recently in Florida, they can
double-punch ballots cast by opponents of big government, thereby
invalidating them; they can punch blank ballots for the candidates they
prefer; they can toss ballots that voted for one candidate into the pile
being counted for the other; etc. No meaningful corrective action is
possible, because the ballots are secret, and thus those whose intentions
are being recorded incorrectly have no way to know that is the case. If,
however, a huge list were made public after every election, listing how
everyone voted, such chicanery would not work. Those whose intentions had
been recorded incorrectly could verify same, and take corrective action.
And if, in addition, the electoral system involved voting with one's tax
receipt, so that individuals cast varying numbers of votes depending on the
taxes they paid, the types of irregularities listed by you, above, would be
pointless: the votes of slum dwellers would never be capable of determining
the outcome of a general election, and hence there would be no point in
stealing them. (There would, very quickly, cease to be slums under such a
system, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish.) --MJ}***

>
>I think the close tally in the recent election was caused by the fact that
>both sides have now perfected focus groups, mass media political
>advertising, computerized pole taking, and other techniques for "selling"
>candidates. In the absence of compelling issues, these Madison Avenue
>techniques dictated the outcome. Since both sides are equally good at them,
>and since many of the techniques are designed to discourage the opposition
>rather than encourage one's own supporters, the results is a tight campaign
>and low turnout.
>
>
>>I suggest that the number of nonthinking people is increasing . . .
>
>Why would that be? Has the genetic makeup of the population changed?

***{Yes. By means of various forms of public assistance, the dim witted,
down to and including outright mental defectives, are enabled to have more
children than they would be capable of supporting on their own. The result
is a process of retrograde evolution in which the proportion of defective
genes in the population increases. (Nobel laureate William Shockley,
co-inventor of the transistor, used to give lectures on this subject, as it
happens.) --MJ}***

Has
>there been a fundamental change to our culture or average educational
>attainment in the last generation?

***{Both. Educational attainment among the non-mentally-defective has been
reduced by forced association with the mentally defective, and by the
reduction of educational standards to accomodate the mentally defective.
Computer technology and the advent of home schooling has to some degree
offset this trend in recent years, but it remains in force. --MJ}***

I doubt it! I think that people who
>believe previous elections were in some sense more noble or generally more
>issues-oriented have a romantic view of history. Old-time elections I have
>read about in detail were steeped in graft, violence, intimidation, vote
>buying, pork-and-whiskey barrel handouts at the polls, pandering to racism,
>and violent, hate filled rhetoric that would instantly cost the election
>today.

***{Mainstream history texts are written by representatives of the status
quo, which, in the case of America, means they are written by the advocates
of fascism. (They do not, of course, use that word, since it is in
disrepute and would not show their views in a good light.) Such writers
disparage America's youthful flirtation with capitalism, and pretend that
the proliferation of legislation that led us to our present sorry state was
based upon reason, rather than an outgrowth of the same sort of reeking
pressure-group politics that we see around us today. However, no thoughtful
reader of even the orthodox history books can find a shred of support for
such a ludicrous thesis. The fact is that, under one man-one vote, the
advocates of reason are at a disadvantage, because their complex arguments
are over most people's heads. Result: personality, emotional appeals, and
crude manipulations decide which side gets its way, and, thus, the course
of history.

Bottom line: it is utter nonsense to suppose that the path of political
change taken in this country, which has led us to the brink of slavery, has
been based on reason. The fact of the matter is that  laws and regulations,
for more than 200 years, have been routinely implemented despite having
been utterly demolished in the debate leading up to their implementation.
That is simply the way things work in a democracy, and no knowledgeable and
unbiased observer would ever claim otherwise.

--Mitchell Jones}***

Today's elections in comparison are cerebral, ultra-polite, and dull
>as dishwater.
>
>- Jed

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: new energy company?
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At 6:46 AM 11/20/0, xplorer wrote:
>It is, after all, an oil company they
> are 'taking to the cleaners'...

Hello Paul,

Glad to see you back.  Have you examined your electrolytic transformer
results?  I checked out your hypothesis, with null results, but did not
hear a response from you.

Here is a summary of what I have posted to date:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic
primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do
they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current.  His data
looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that
were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of
electrolytes.  However, I managed to produce a brief test of his
hypothesis, even with the very low primary current that results from using
low conductivity electrolyte conductors, by bumping up the frequency to
about 1 MHz and using a ferrite flyback transformer core to couple the
primary and secondary coils,  both of which had a low turn count.

The ferrite core used for the test had a cross sectional area of very
roughly 1 cm^2, and consisted of two "C" sections, each about 4 cm to a
side on the outside.   The secondary was wrapped with about 10 turns of
copper stranded test probe wire, which is insulated to about 10 kV.  The
primary was wrapped with 5 turns of test probe wire and 5 turns of 1/8" ID
plastic tubing (from Eagle Hardware, now Lowe's) filled with salt water.
The salt water was made by adding a couple tablespoons of salt to a 4 oz
glass of warm water.  There were still traces of magnesium sulfate in the
plastic tubing from a prior experiment.  The tubing length was about 2
feet.

Salt water was siphoned into the tubing and then the tubing ends were
closed by jamming #10 ground wire into the ends.  The green plastic
insulation just fit inside the plastic tubing and made a water tight seal
with the plastic tubing.  The #10 wire was stripped a couple inches in
order to assure good electrical contact with the electrolyte.  The
resistance of the electrolyte tube was about 14 k ohms.

The frequency was selected so as to get a good reliable and readable signal
out of the secondary.  The input was about 2 volts pk-pk, and was sin wave
output from a function generator.  There was a significant capacitive
coupling between the primary and secondary, but the output voltage dropped
by about 70 percent when the ground lead was removed, indicating a
significant magnetic coupling.

Unfortunately, the two primaries could not meaningfully be placed in series
due to a very strong capacitive coupling between them.  That approach,
which I suggested earlier, would require use of high voltages and low
frequency input, and thus high power and a bigger core than I have
available.

The resitance of the electrolytic primary was measured at 9.6 k ohms, but
it was varying.  It prior was measured at 14 k ohms, but still had some
bubbles in it, which were cleared before the experiments began.  In order
to simulate the resistance of the electrolytic coil, a 50 k pot was set to
9.6 k and placed in series with the copper primary.

The copper primary and the electrolytic primaries were energized separately
at 1050 kHz.  Both produced similar output.  The electrolytic coil produced
228 mV out, the copper produced 196 mV out, which is equal output withing
the range of accuracy of the experiment.  The largest uncontrollable
variance was due to the changing resistance of the electrolytic coil.

This is a null result.  At a range of 500 - 1000 kHz the hypothesis that
electrolytic primaries do not induce a current in secondaries similar to
that induced by metallic primaries is false.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 8:24 AM 10/13/0, Jones Beene wrote:

>Can you try lower frequencies, especially around 20k, which is likely the
>resonance point of the ferrite (if it came from a flyback)


The output voltage attenuates as frequency drops, and there is nothing much
out below around 50 kHz.  I am only imputting about a volt rms, so with
about 10 k resistance the input current is limited to only about 100
microamps, and that ignoring the inductance.  My DMM is not accurate in
that range.  Also, I think the current through the electrolyte at that
voltage is limited to that which gets through the capacitive interface
between the copper and the electrolyte.  Down at that low current you have
to obtain a high dI/dt to get a measurable voltage, thus a large frequency
is required.  The magnetic coupling is not so good due to the small number
of turns and the relatively long distance between primaries and
secondaries.  I could go the trouble to build a HF HV supply, and insulate
the coils for HV, but I don't see any evidence to justify it, and I have a
lot else to do of higher priority.  I am now merely reporting what I did in
order to save others the trouble.


>- and also can you
>measure any significant current? In other words, although you mentioned
>capacitance coupling, have you really eliminated the possibility that you have
>anything more than a transmitter (the lead to the electrolyte) and an antenna?


Yes, I have fiddled around further to be sure that capacitive coupling is
not a large part of the coupling beteen the primaries and the secondary.  I
rebuit my transformer in order to make sure.  I made a new longer 16 turn
liquid primary from thinner more flexible Tygon tubing.  I wrapped it with
a 16 turn copper primary.  I used lye instead of salt water and achieved a
10 K ohm resistance for the new longer liquid secondary.  I made an all new
secondary by wrapping the second "C" core with two layers of rough twine to
achieve a layer with a low dielectric constant, and then wrapped that with
16 turns of insulated copper.   The purpose of the new secondary "C" was to
break the strong capacitive coupling between the primaries and the
secondary.  There is still some, but it is reduced.  I discovered that at
the 0.5 to 1 MHz range used the ferrite core is essentially a conductor -
by accidentally touching the power lead to the primary core.   The results
were better with the new set-up, but still unclear when tests were
attempted with the two primaries placed in series - due to the strong
capacitive coupling between the two primary coils, which are wrapped one on
top of the other.   Energizing each of the two primary coils at separate
times, with the copper coil in series with a 10 k resistor, still clearly
produced similar output.  There is no sign of anomalous behaviour.

Keep in mind that the primary and secondary coils axes are parallel, and
located on opposite "C's" of the core.  The two C's are pushed togeher to
make a complete "O" core.  When I break apart the two ferrite C's the
signal drops fast.  Most important, is that when I disconnect the GROUND to
the primary coil, be it the electrolytic or the copper primary, the signal
then drops to nearly nothing.  If the primary were acting as an antenna,
then the primary ground would be not needed to propigate the signal.  A
current has to go through the entire primary in order to get a significant
output voltage, so that pretty much guarantees that magnetic coupling is
the source of the secondary voltage.

Here are some quantatative results:

    1050 kHz                    525 kHz

 V_in      V_out             V_in      V_out

  1.30     1.02              1.26      0.360
  1.29     0.920             1.26      0.380


To further nail down the equivalence of the effect, and to eliminate doubt
as to the current through each of the primaries, a 3rd C core was prepareed
with 15 turns of copper.  This third C core was placed in series with the
electrolytic coil an the second C core.  These were individually and
manually mated to the first C core, whcih contained the isolated secondary.
The was some minor variation in the output numbers depending on how hard
the cores were pressed, how well they aligned etc. but not more than about
5 percent fluctuation fromthe above figures.

So, to a moderately high degree of accuracy, about 5 percent, it appears
the magnetic fields produced are the same.


>
>I say this because the voltage output of the secondary is about what you would
>expect from a closely placed antenna, and the ferrite probably doesn't couple
>well above 40k hz anyway. Using a coax for the lead could eliminate this
>possibility, or if you find a significant current transfer that would be
>definitive.

Actually, coax coils don't provide full or even adequate shielding in that
if they are open ended on one end they act as antennas themselves and
actually produce current, and if shorted, they kill the output potential.


>
>Did you try using DC and a small compass to see if you get any magnetic field
>at all?


Yes.  Here I used the original electrolytic primary to wrap 5 turns on a
cardboard tube.  The inner diameter was 4.2 cm, and the coil length was 5.5
cm. A control coil of the same dimensions was wound with 5 turns of copper
wire.  These coils were placed to either side of a compas made from two
magnets self-clamping themselves to a 32 cm length of fine cotton thread
which was supended so as to position the magnets between the mouths of the
two axially aligned coils.  The coils were positioned so as to be at right
angles to the ambient field (which I suspect is higher than the earth's due
to some powerful magnets I have in the vicinity.)  The magnets quickly
pointed approximately toward magnetic north, which here is to the
northeast, so I suspect the local field is not extremely strong compared
tot he earth's.  The magnets used were circular prisms, 12 mm diameter and
6 mm thick.  They are about 35 Mgo I think, and are from Arbor Scientific.

A regulated DC power supply was used, and the voltage applied was 22.61
volts, the current 3.12 mA, showing a total effective resistance of 7.2 k
ohms.  The coils are maintained in series throughout all the data gathering
so as to maintain a constant current through both.

A very small deflection was observed when the two coils were orineted so as
to have their magnetic fields reinforce, forming a kind of Helmholz coil or
long continuous solenoid around the magnets.

Now for the unfortunately not very quantitative part.  The magnets
exhibited a typical torsion pendulum frequency of about 1 second, and were
nearly impossible to totally stop oscillating or swinging, but the natural
normal oscillations were small.   With the current in the two coils
reinforcing, and applied (manually) only during a reinforcing phase of the
torsion swing, the magnets were made to oscillate to a full 90 deg.
position in (about) 17 oscillations.  With the aligned so as to oppose, a
small amount of somewhat random looking gyration could be achived, but this
appeared to be do more to the 2D pendulum motion of the magnets and varying
proximity to the two coils.  Within the accuracy of the experiment, it
appeared the two fields cancelled.  The electrolytic coil was placed aside,
using only the copper coil, and it took 45 to 50 oscillations to achieve a
90 deg. oscillation.  (This is a very subjective test.)  Then, the copper
coil replaced the electrolytic coil and it took from 42 to 48 times to
achieve a 90 deg. oscillation.

Again, this is a null result.  The hypothesis that the electrolyte coils
produce no magnetic field is further positively denied.

I don't have any more time or space for this work, so am concluding my efforts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 09:41:10 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:37:47 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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thomas malloy wrote:


>I agree with Ed, I blame TV. and the welfare state.

Broadcast TV and the welfare state or both in decline, and have been for a 
generation. Broadcast TV is rapidly being replaced by narrowcast cable and 
Internet. Perhaps the deleterious effects of these institutions is only now 
affecting the electorate.

Assuming there is a deleterious effect . . . I have read campaign speeches, 
slogans and histories from the 1970s, the 1950s the 1890s and way back. It 
does not seem to me that the intellectual tenor of the campaigns is any 
different than it ever used to be. A few times, at critical points in 
history, the electorate has grappled with important issues and made 
momentous decisions. Most of the time, the issues have been frivolous, the 
campaigns partisan, the rhetoric vacuous, and the presidents and Congress 
selected by the process have been, as Mark Twain put it, "the only 
distinctly native American criminal class."

People have been complaining about the immorality and stupidity of American 
politics and voters since 1680. I think it is likely that things are 
perfectly normal today and we have nothing to worry about. There isn't much 
point in worrying anyway: we cannot trade-in our citizens for a better 
class of people. I doubt there are any better classes of people. I have 
often heard that "the Japanese" are better at math and science, or more 
disciplined, or more this and less that, but in 25 years of dealing with 
them and attending Japanese schools and universities, I have seen no 
evidence for this alleged superiority. Obviously their teenagers do better 
on the standardized tests, because standardized tests are far more 
important to Japanese teenagers than American teenagers.  As far as I can 
tell, middle-aged, middle-class people in both countries are about equally 
well-educated, and capable. There are vast differences between the two 
countries, but I doubt they are caused by inborn or learned capabilities of 
individuals. I think the differences are caused by large-scale 
institutions, such as the Imperial Japanese Army, which once held the 
nation in thrall. It disappeared overnight, and the whole society changed 
-- literally within hours -- even though the education, abilities, and 
attitudes of Japanese individuals hardly changed at all. If you could alter 
the Japanese college entrance examinations and tuition system, eliminating 
blind meritocracy and zero-cost higher education, and deemphasizing 
knowledge-based multiple-choice tests, the apparent intelligence of the 
population as measured in the test scores would suddenly drop by a huge 
percent. Students would not study as hard because they would no longer be 
economically motivated to do so. Rich kids would suddenly find themselves 
competing with a much smaller cohort, and they would take it easy. Poor 
kids would give up and stop studying for the exams, knowing they could not 
afford to go even if they passed. It would be more like the U.S., and more 
like Japan as it was before 1945.

Japanese scientists are no better or worse at doing cold fusion than anyone 
else, but at institutions like Mitsubishi and the national universities 
they continue to make progress while our scientists are dead in the water. 
Our institutions have failed; theirs are stumbling forward, barely working 
against fierce internal opposition. Cold fusion is in danger in Japan, but 
it is moribund in the U.S. The difference is very slight, and the 
situations in both countries could change rapidly under the right 
circumstances.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 11:17:53 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:13:10 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: human stupidity
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Jed Rothwell wrote;

>>
>
>Broadcast TV and the welfare state or both in decline,


I don't know what planet your living on Jed, but broadcast TV and 
cable TV is alive and well here in the land of 10,000 idiot liberals. 
Warner Brothers Network is a prime example of this. It is what I call 
trash TV. Jerry Springer is a prime example and his show is one of 
the better ones, they go downhill from there.

As some of you are aware, children are reaching sexual maturity at 
earlier and earlier ages. This has been attributed to fat in the 
diet, hormones, hormone mimicers. Someone recently attributed it to 
watching sex acts on TV. H.L. Menkin hit the nail on the head when he 
observed, "no one ever lost money by underestimating the taste of the 
American public."

>  I have seen no evidence for this alleged superiority. Obviously 
>their teenagers do better on the standardized tests,

Given that the Japanese were going to eat out lunch in the mid '70's. 
They certainly have fallen flat on their faces. We have a small group 
of people in each generation with the ability to think outside the 
box, which has proven to be our saving grace. In addition we pruned 
the welfare state in the '80's. Reversals on the part of organized 
labor come to mind as an example. I've always contended that the 
ability to do well on standardized tests has very little to do with 
the ability to think creatively.

OTOH, schools have higher standards for orientals than other races. 
Is this a good idea? I don't know, but it sure is politically correct.

>Japanese scientists are no better or worse at doing cold fusion than 
>anyone else, but at institutions like Mitsubishi and the national 
>universities they continue to make progress while our scientists are 
>dead in the water. Our institutions have failed; theirs are 
>stumbling forward, barely working against fierce internal 
>opposition. Cold fusion is in danger in Japan, but it is moribund in 
>the U.S. The difference is very slight, and the situations in both 
>countries could change rapidly under the right circumstances.

This seems like a good place to mention Eugene Mallove's interview on 
Coast to Coast AM. He said, "you never want to attribute to malice 
what can to attributed to stupidity." As an avid conspiracy fan, I 
attribute both the repression of cold fusion and the writing out of 
the history books of the contribution of Nicola Tesla to the 
machinations of the invisible government and their Luciferian agenda. 
OTOH no one has come up with a CF machine or any other system that 
produce energy in commercial quantites from an "alternative" source 
that produces a commercializable amount of energy.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 11:48:28 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:45:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Startech
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>Ahoy!
>
>I've been following this outfit for a while, they have a plasma based, gas
>producing technology similar to the Santilli group's technology.  Their
>claims are quite extraordinary.  They've been getting some pretty hot press
>recently, CBS put them on MarketWatch, they have gotten contracts to install
>some small units, one that I know of in Rhode Island, and I read the other
>day that they got the nod from the Egytian government to proceed on
>negotiations for some very large units.  The valuation of that contract is
>estimated by Startech to be worth around $300,000,000.  That's in US bueno
>bucks.
>
>Either their poop really floats, or this is truly a world class con job.  I
>think it probably is the former case

***{This sounds like a variation on the "destructive distillation of wood"
experiment that most of us did in high school chemistry, but using an
electric arc rather than a bunsen burner as the heat source, and capturing
the off-gases rather than venting them to the open air. The issue, I guess,
would be whether it is plausible that typical solid waste would yield fuel
gases that contained three times as much energy as was required to cook
them out of the waste. If you are considering investing money in the
company, I would suggest that you do a destructive distillation experiment
using unsorted household trash rather than wood, capture the off-gases,
pump them up to a pressure suitable for fueling a bunsen burner, and see if
they contain enough energy to fuel the experiment a second, third, and
forth time. Frankly, I doubt that there will be enough to repeat it even
once, and even if there are, you would still need to take into account the
energy cost of pumping the gas back up to the pressure needed to run the
burner. All in all, it sounds like a pretty iffy proposition to me, though
one that is intriguing enough to merit looking into. --MJ}***

, and is worth a closer examination.  I
>know it is not cold fusion, but it is a non-polluting, financially
>attractive looking alternative to present day fuels.
>
>http://www.startech.net/
>
>Knuke
>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:52:26 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: human stupidity
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

 H.L. Menkin hit the nail on the head when he
>observed, "no one ever lost money by underestimating the taste of the
>American public."

***{As I remember it, the wording was: "Nobody ever went broke
underestimating the intelligence of the American people." --MJ}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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thomas malloy wrote:


>>Broadcast TV and the welfare state or both in decline,
>
>
>I don't know what planet your living on Jed, but broadcast TV and cable TV 
>is alive and well here in the land of 10,000 idiot liberals.

I meant the number of viewers and hours spent watching are declining, and 
the advertising rates and profits are in danger, in broadcast NOT cable. I 
was not referring to the quality of the shows, which is at least as bad as 
the "penny dreadful" popular entertainment shockers of Victorian era.


>As some of you are aware, children are reaching sexual maturity at earlier 
>and earlier ages.

Females only. Males have never changed as far as I know. The average age in 
primitive tribes is 16 - 17. In the U.S., in 1900 it was 14, and today it 
is 12 - 13. The U.S. white population has not changed measurably in 45 
year, but blacks reach puberty a few months earlier than they did in 1955.


>  This has been attributed to fat in the diet, hormones, hormone mimicers. 
> Someone recently attributed it to watching sex acts on TV.

That's a fascinating theory! However, there has been no change since 
televisions became popular circa 1950, and sex acts have only been shown on 
television for the last 20 years or so, so it cannot be correct.



>>  I have seen no evidence for this alleged superiority. Obviously their 
>> teenagers do better on the standardized tests,
>
>Given that the Japanese were going to eat out lunch in the mid '70's. They 
>certainly have fallen flat on their faces.

However, their standardized test performance has not changed as far as I 
know. I do not think standardized tests prove much. Mostly they measure 
people's enthusiasm for taking standardized tests.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 12:35:12 2000
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Subject: Miley comments on the future of Fusion Technology
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Here are some paragraphs from the article I am writing for Infinite Energy. 
The second paragraph is based on an e-mail I received from George Miley, in 
response to inquiring about future policies at Fusion Technology.

- Jed


ANS members may be more conventional than APS physicists, but they also 
appear to be more open-minded toward cold fusion. The ANS conference 
included a one and a half-day session devoted to cold fusion, organized by 
Fusion Technology editor George Miley. The session was well attended, 
attracting 30 or 40 people at times, and unlike the APS, there was 
no  hostile opposition or jeering and no large session devoted to 
ridiculing  cold fusion and other unpopular ideas. Fusion Technology has 
been one of  the few major peer reviewed scientific journals in the United 
States that  continues publishing cold fusion papers. Miley has been 
praised by some but  harshly criticized by others in the hot fusion 
community  for allowing these papers. He is retiring from his post as 
editor in July  2001, which could mean that cold fusion papers will no 
longer be  published in this journal.

Miley says that the incoming editor, Nermin Uckan of Oak Ridge National 
Laboratory (ORNL), has expressed concern about the opposition created by 
the cold fusion papers,  but she is still considering the situation. She 
should announce a decision in a  few months. He suggests that interested 
members of the cold fusion community might want to contact her to express 
views about the role Fusion Technology can play by continuing publication 
of  these papers. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 12:36:37 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Startech
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Mitch writes:
>***{This sounds like a variation on the "destructive distillation of wood"
>experiment that most of us did in high school chemistry, but using an
>electric arc rather than a bunsen burner as the heat source, and capturing
>the off-gases rather than venting them to the open air. The issue, I guess,
>would be whether it is plausible that typical solid waste would yield fuel
>gases that contained three times as much energy as was required to cook
>them out of the waste. If you are considering investing money in the
>company, I would suggest that you do a destructive distillation experiment
>using unsorted household trash rather than wood, capture the off-gases,
>pump them up to a pressure suitable for fueling a bunsen burner, and see if
>they contain enough energy to fuel the experiment a second, third, and
>forth time. Frankly, I doubt that there will be enough to repeat it even
>once, and even if there are, you would still need to take into account the
>energy cost of pumping the gas back up to the pressure needed to run the
>burner. All in all, it sounds like a pretty iffy proposition to me, though
>one that is intriguing enough to merit looking into. --MJ}***

I'm not in any position to make an investment of any sort, and I never took
high school chemistry, but I would think that given the much higher voltages
and temps involved with producing a plasma arc, that it would be able to do
a much better job at breaking down complex molecules than a bunsen burner.
I don't have the URL for Santilli's website handy, but they were claiming
that the energy output in usable gases was 8 to 15 times higher than the
input needed to produce the plasma, if I recall the numbers correctly.
Startech is a bit further along in their development I think.  Given that
the starting fuel is garbage anyway, that needs to be dealt with, and the
resulting gases are evidently clean enough to run through a fuel cell, it
looks like a much better proposition than a lower temperature burn.  Pig
farms could be major power producers.  Private homeowners could possibly use
their own garbage and waste to power their houses, etc..  It would get us
off of oil and nuclear power.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 13:48:57 2000
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:52:44 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ethernet Rail Road Incident driver Help... PLEASE



	Dear Folks,


	I am trying to find a supplier for a product I remember ... but I
got run over by a train of thought ... and I am lost:

	I am trying to find a supplier of the best amplifier for Ethernet.
this gizmo was a buffer-driver-amplifier, that allowed the user to boost
their Ethernet to drive longer wires than the normal spec.

	PLEASE:
	
	Anyone who has a lead on this write to me off line so we do not
hog up bandwidth.

			THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND TROUBLE


				John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 21 14:00:21 2000
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:56:30 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Startech
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>Mitch writes:
>>***{This sounds like a variation on the "destructive distillation of wood"
>>experiment that most of us did in high school chemistry, but using an
>>electric arc rather than a bunsen burner as the heat source, and capturing
>>the off-gases rather than venting them to the open air. The issue, I guess,
>>would be whether it is plausible that typical solid waste would yield fuel
>>gases that contained three times as much energy as was required to cook
>>them out of the waste. If you are considering investing money in the
>>company, I would suggest that you do a destructive distillation experiment
>>using unsorted household trash rather than wood, capture the off-gases,
>>pump them up to a pressure suitable for fueling a bunsen burner, and see if
>>they contain enough energy to fuel the experiment a second, third, and
>>forth time. Frankly, I doubt that there will be enough to repeat it even
>>once, and even if there are, you would still need to take into account the
>>energy cost of pumping the gas back up to the pressure needed to run the
>>burner. All in all, it sounds like a pretty iffy proposition to me, though
>>one that is intriguing enough to merit looking into. --MJ}***
>
>I'm not in any position to make an investment of any sort, and I never took
>high school chemistry, but I would think that given the much higher voltages
>and temps involved with producing a plasma arc, that it would be able to do
>a much better job at breaking down complex molecules than a bunsen burner.

***{It's not clear to me what the gain would be. Much of household waste
consists of old cans, glass bottles, etc. Energy invested in converting
them into atoms in a plasma would not get paid back by combustion, because
they wouldn't burn. You would just wind up with slag. And energy invested
in breaking down complex organic molecules--e.g., 2CH4 --> C2 + 4H2--would
not be entirely returned via combustion because the breakdown process is
not 100% efficient. Thus I would think that a lower temperature burn would
be more efficient than a high temperature one. If not, what am I missing?
--MJ}***

into
>I don't have the URL for Santilli's website handy, but they were claiming
>that the energy output in usable gases was 8 to 15 times higher than the
>input needed to produce the plasma, if I recall the numbers correctly.
>Startech is a bit further along in their development I think.  Given that
>the starting fuel is garbage anyway, that needs to be dealt with, and the
>resulting gases are evidently clean enough to run through a fuel cell, it
>looks like a much better proposition than a lower temperature burn.  Pig
>farms could be major power producers.  Private homeowners could possibly use
>their own garbage and waste to power their houses, etc..  It would get us
>off of oil and nuclear power.

***{You are right to be intrigued by this idea, though at the moment I find
the low-temperature approach more interesting. As you know, I would *love*
to disconnect myself from the power grid, provided that I could do so
without my lights going out. :-)

As for getting us off of oil and nuclear power, (a) I believe we live on a
CO2 starved planet, so I *like* oil burning power sources; and (b) judged
solely on the basis of safety, I consider nuclear power to be superior to
all other energy sources.

What I dislike about both methods, as presently implemented, is that they
require us to rely on centralized power sources--i.e., the grid--rather
than individual power sources under our own control. That means I would
happily burn oil in a home power plant, if I could do so economically.
Since plastics are made from oil, burning waste plastic to generate
household power appeals to me. And, if there were a small-scale, household
nuclear power plant available--as would long ago have been the case under
capitalism--I would happily use one of those as well.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 22 02:29:40 2000
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Mitch writes:
>***{You are right to be intrigued by this idea, though at the moment I find
>the low-temperature approach more interesting. As you know, I would *love*
>to disconnect myself from the power grid, provided that I could do so
>without my lights going out. :-)
>
>As for getting us off of oil and nuclear power, (a) I believe we live on a
>CO2 starved planet, so I *like* oil burning power sources; and (b) judged
>solely on the basis of safety, I consider nuclear power to be superior to
>all other energy sources.
>
>What I dislike about both methods, as presently implemented, is that they
>require us to rely on centralized power sources--i.e., the grid--rather
>than individual power sources under our own control. That means I would
>happily burn oil in a home power plant, if I could do so economically.
>Since plastics are made from oil, burning waste plastic to generate
>household power appeals to me. And, if there were a small-scale, household
>nuclear power plant available--as would long ago have been the case under
>capitalism--I would happily use one of those as well.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***

Ahoy there again,

I just went to their website again after not having seen it for some months,
and have to admit that it is pretty scant on technical detail.  One would
have to consult their patents or be privy to their inhouse data to gain a
deeper understanding and knowledge of the precise working and output data of
their system under various conditions and with various feedstocks.  However,
they are claiming on their website that the return energy in usable gases is
4 times greater than the input energy if organic materials are processed,
and a recovery of inorganic materials not unlike other forms of recovery
that we do today out of necessity.  They also stress that plasma treatment
is not like a chemical or low temperature oxydizing burn, in that the higher
temperature conducting gases produced in a plasma arc are *better able* to
break down the processed material into more elemental components.

As you, I and everyone else are well aware, the way we burn oil today is
grossly inefficient largely due to the low temperatures of the burn itself,
and that a generation of 30,000 degrees F in temperature within a conducting
gas would allow for even the production of mono-atomic hydrogen if the gases
are collected before they are allowed to combine with outside air.  I
realize that you are an advocate of raising the CO2 levels in the
atmosphere, and you may even be correct about this having a beneficial
effect on the growth rate of plants and the overall health of animal life,
but equating that with or advocating the burning of diesel oil or gasoline
in today's IC engines and heating appliances as a means to produce CO2, both
of which produce significant amounts of deadly poisonous gases and
semi-solids (unburned gases) in the process, along with the harmful
additives such as lead, MBTB's (or whatever the lead substitutes are
called), sulfur, perfumes, colorants and all the rest of the crap that goes
out of a tailpipe or exhaust stack is not logical, nor is it necessary.  In
fact Mitch, it is exactly the kind of crazy logic that the oil companies are
using to justify the prolongation of the use their product.  Why a smart guy
like yourself repeats such an obviously contradicting fallacy that comes
straight from oil companies' lying PR firms is beyond me, but I'm sure you
have your *logical* reasons ;)

A finer, more efficient and less polluting way of generating electrical
energy is apparently possible with this type of plasma technology when
organic wastes are treated by running the resulting collected output gases
through a more efficient electricity producng fuel cell to produce
electricity.  In addition, mineral and other inorganic materials are
recovered in the process as well, they are not oxydized, so they become
re-usable and resaleable again.  Further development of this latter aspect
could greatly reduce the cost of materials for future construction.  We need
to do this anyway, and do spend an enormous amount now to do it.

Looked at and utilized as a waste material recycling center/electrical
energy production system with a net gain in electrical energy output, this
technology appears to solve a lot of problems.  I think that your lack of
understanding of the benefits of this type of technology lies in your
failure or refusal to acknowledge the differences between the limited
abilities of normal combustion and the superior plasma generation effects.
I also think that if you really wanted to get yourself off of the grid in an
environmentally friendly fashion, that you could have done so long ago.
Many people have already done it using numerous different approaches, some
of them quite unsophisticated, but effective nonetheless, and without making
any great sacrifices or major changes in their lifestyles.  If you are
waiting for the Rockefellers or whomever to become saints, and hand you a
perfect solution to your energy and garbage disposal needs on a platter for
free, then prepare yourself for a good long wait.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 22 04:20:45 2000
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Nov.  22, 2,000

Jed,

What guidance did you give the two Howard University physicists who
performed some underwater carbon arc experiments?
As you may know, in the recent past, underwater carbon arc experiments
were conducted in Florida with Dr. Peter Gluck (of Romania) involved as
one of the science staff. So it may be helpful for the physicists to
also get in touch with Gluck as well as anybody in Japan. Dr. Peter
Gluck, emeritus, can be contacted at: <<pgluck dntcj.ro>>.

You mention abstracts being  once available at the ANS website. I did
not know this to be the case. All I ever did get out of both the APS and
ANS websites were session scheduling.. I doubt ANS would make abstracts
available online since this would require huge website space and much
work to accommodate the entire conference.
I can see all the abstracts being made available as a CD as was offered
at the Oct.. regional meeting of the ACS but not online.

So Takaaki Matsumoto attended! At the Marigola Italy ICCF (8th), he had
a number of copies of collected papers written over a ten year (since
1989) period on his multifaceted experiments and theories related to
cold fusion. These were on the freebie table along with other printed
matter including the I.E. magazine located at the entrance to the
conference room. I picked up one copy and  finally got around to
perusing  it recently.

I think the man should be taken more seriously than has been so far by
the CF community. During the time he has studied CF since 1989, he has
been an associate professor at the Dept. of Nuclear Engineering at
Hokkaido University (since 1974) and actively involved in things
nuclear. It is no small feat to obtain a tenured position in Japan's
university system. Usually you can become a full professor only with
death and other incapacities further up the chain of connections.
Matsumoto is familiar with Mills' work, dealt in nuclear reactor
designs, and nuclear remediation studies. His approach to understanding
CF is from the nuclear side but seems to be multi-disciplined. And he
has access to equipment to do experiments.. He is probably quite
familiar with other CF scientists in Japan and elsewhere. By his papers,
he seems to have dealt with arcing experiments and familiar with CF
radiation results. So I do not think people such as Oriani should
dismiss him lightly.
I think one negative factor of his theoretical work is his bad choice of
a word to label his work model. : ) "Nattoh". This is akin to to
labeling  your experimental work 'The Limburger Model of CF". Nattoh
refers to a favorite Japanese food which is fermented cooked soy beans.
If you grew up with it, it is good. But for many people introduced to it
later in life, it is an acquired taste and smell definitely. I like it
myself (grew up with it since a child).

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 22 07:34:10 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cold fusion at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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At 4:20 PM 11/20/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>Kenny described a nice little experiment designed for undergraduates, with
>an innovative cell design. They detect increased radiation with a GM
>counter when palladium is electrolyzed in heavy water. The experiment takes
>only two hours and it always works. The results are only one or two Sigma
>at this stage, but perhaps it can be improved and this may impress many
>people. The cell design eliminates the water and glass barrier, which may
>be the biggest problem people have encountered trying to detect weak
>radiation from cold fusion cells.
[snip]


On the surface, this sounds like a very significant breakthrough.  If a one
or two sigma result can be achieved in two hours then an arbitrary degree
of precision on the mean value of the count rate increase can be obtained
simply by running the experiment longer - provided there are no (short
term) limitations to run time, like electrode decomposition.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Startech
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>Mitch writes:
>  >***{This sounds like a variation on the "destructive distillation of wood"

and Michael Huffman responded;

>and temps involved with producing a plasma arc, that it would be able to do
>a much better job at breaking down complex molecules than a bunsen burner.
>I don't have the URL for Santilli's website handy, but they were claiming
>that the energy output in usable gases was 8 to 15 times higher than the

This sounds like and watergas patent that is now controlled by Toup 
Technology Corp. Their patent covers what happens when you discharge 
an arc in a slurry of water and whatever organic material you want to 
dispose of.

I got quite excited when I read it because we are long on animal 
manure here in the land of 10,000 idiot liberals. The state 
government has been known to pay for any project which promises to 
clean up the environment. Unfortunately their process is definitely 
not overunity. Given the energy and capital necessary to produce 
electricity, this process only makes sense then one has toxic waste 
to dispose of.

  I will take a look at the URL that was posted, but unless I see some 
novel method of cohering the energy of the vacuum or transmuting 
matter, I'm going to write this one off too. As I recall it the Toup 
process produces enough gas to give back 3 times the energy input. 
This covers the energy of the electrical arc and the energy in the 
waste.

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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:00:18 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: I read the Piantelli Patent
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Ever since I read about this patent in Infinite Energy, I've ment to 
read it. Given Robert Parks objections to CF; it doesn't produce any 
energy, and it doesn't produce any helium 3. I think that I should 
email him a copy of this.

I have previously indicated an interest in the Piantelli patent, 
stimulated fusion and energy production by means of enharmonic 
stimulation. If you go to http://www.delphion.com you can search for 
patents. There is a window for type of patent,  click on the world 
patent, WO. The patent number is WO 95/20816. When you type the 
number in leave out the WO. There are several options for the type of 
document, one was a PDF file which would have been nice, but they 
wanted $3 for it. The TIFF format was free. It is a very readable 
document.

Basically the reaction takes place on a metallic bar. The patent 
gives details on how various gases were loaded into the metal. The 
gas of the most interest was natural hydrogen which is a mixture of 
protium and deutrium in a 6000 to 1 ratio.

The patent also talks about the use of different metals. Different 
metals have different critical temperatures. which must be exceeded 
for the reaction to commence. I believe that this temperature is 
based on  Debye's Constant. A table at the end of the patent details 
the critical temperature for each metal. This is Plank's Constant 
over Boltzman's constant times V sub CR .

  There is also a typical frequency for each material. See Charles 
Kittel's Introduction to Solid State Physics Willey and Sons. The 
fusion reaction is stimulated by reticular vibration. The waves form 
a coherent multimodal system of stationary oscillations. They 
speculate that this vibration causes the hydrogen atoms, which are 
held on the crystal lattice to come into close enough proximity to 
react. I'm not real clear on this frequency and why they were using 
enharmonic vibrations as opposed to harmonic vibrations.

They also speculate that the reaction releases 5.5 MEV which would 
vaporize the area in the immediate vacinety  to vaporize. It also 
says that every transition from one Fermi state to another involves 
the emission of a particle of a given frequency and wave vector. The 
patent go on to talk about the frequency of free electrons in the 
crystal lattice. I'm not clear on whether the frequency is dependent 
on the metal or these electrons.

There are several means of inducing the vibration. They include 
ultrasonic, magnetic, radio frequency, and lasers. The drawing of 
preferred embodiment of the invention shows a coil surrounding the 
metal bar. They mentioned the use of 1000 Amps for short periods of 
time. The ultrasonic stimulation involves placing the bar in a 
resonant cavity. They also mentioned the use of a reverse piezo 
electric effect, and laser irridiation.

Various metals produced various energy outputs. The energy was 
measured in Mega Jules and ranged from 1.29 to 4.74 MJ per day. I 
though this was pretty impressive, until I was told that 3.6 MJ was 
equal to 1 KW hour or 3,413 BTU's. In one test a nickle bar, 200 MM 
by 3 MM  produced 4.74 MJ per day. They also noted the production of 
helium 3.




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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:25:20 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Biomas gasification
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I noticed this on Intregity Research's website. I'm wondering exactly 
what it means.

Analytical testing indicates the gas is a stable compound (rather 
than a mixture), with an energy
content of 525-550 BTU/ft3. Ignition of the gas produces carbon 
dioxide and water vapor as the combustion products.
Conversion efficiency measurements for the process show an increase 
in enthalpy of 27% to 44%, compared to the electrical
input energy. These measurements do not include the unrecovered heat 
in the process apparatus, the radiant energy produced
by the carbon-arc, nor the energy contained in the biomass solution 
and carbon electrodes. When these factors are taken into
account, a much higher net increase in enthalpy will be realized, 
indicating a very high conversion efficiency.

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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:04:36 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Startech
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>Mitch writes:
>>***{You are right to be intrigued by this idea, though at the moment I find
>>the low-temperature approach more interesting. As you know, I would *love*
>>to disconnect myself from the power grid, provided that I could do so
>>without my lights going out. :-)
>>
>>As for getting us off of oil and nuclear power, (a) I believe we live on a
>>CO2 starved planet, so I *like* oil burning power sources; and (b) judged
>>solely on the basis of safety, I consider nuclear power to be superior to
>>all other energy sources.
>>
>>What I dislike about both methods, as presently implemented, is that they
>>require us to rely on centralized power sources--i.e., the grid--rather
>>than individual power sources under our own control. That means I would
>>happily burn oil in a home power plant, if I could do so economically.
>>Since plastics are made from oil, burning waste plastic to generate
>>household power appeals to me. And, if there were a small-scale, household
>>nuclear power plant available--as would long ago have been the case under
>>capitalism--I would happily use one of those as well.
>>
>>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Ahoy there again,
>
>I just went to their website again after not having seen it for some months,
>and have to admit that it is pretty scant on technical detail.  One would
>have to consult their patents or be privy to their inhouse data to gain a
>deeper understanding and knowledge of the precise working and output data of
>their system under various conditions and with various feedstocks.  However,
>they are claiming on their website that the return energy in usable gases is
>4 times greater than the input energy if organic materials are processed,
>and a recovery of inorganic materials not unlike other forms of recovery
>that we do today out of necessity.  They also stress that plasma treatment
>is not like a chemical or low temperature oxydizing burn, in that the higher
>temperature conducting gases produced in a plasma arc are *better able* to
>break down the processed material into more elemental components.

***{Yes, but I don't really see the point of that, from the standpoint of
energy production. Once a fuel gas such as methane (CH4) has been driven
off by the application of a sufficient amount of heat, there is no net
energy benefit associated with applying a still higher amount of heat, to
produce, for example: 2CH4 + heat --> C2 + 4H2. The reason: when the
reaction is reversed, you just get back the heat you invested, minus
whatever portion of the input you lost as waste. Thus I do not see a point
to the very high heat levels, again from the standpoint of energy
production. (If the goal is to reduce the volume of the materials by, for
example, turning metal cans and glass bottles into slag, that's fine; but
if you try to do that, you are going to reduce the energy yield of the
process.) Bottom line: it looks to me like the process would yield more
energy in the net if it used a lower level of heat, and left the cans and
bottles in the form of cans and bottles. --MJ}***

>
>As you, I and everyone else are well aware, the way we burn oil today is
>grossly inefficient largely due to the low temperatures of the burn itself

***{You are right about the inefficiency, but it is not so much due to the
temperature of the flame as to the inability to direct the heat at the
target--i.e., at whatever it is we are seeking to heat. Too much heat is
lost heating things that we don't really care to heat, or that we would
rather not heat. But this source of inefficiency is not lessened by using a
higher temperature when cooking the solid waste, in order to convert fuel
gases such as CH4 (methane) into carbon plus hydrogen. The solid carbon
(soot) won't flow through a gas line, and the heat from a hydrogen flame is
just as hard to direct at a target as is the heat from a CH4 flame. Thus
all you need is a temperature high enough to break all of the organic
materials down into fuel gases. If the Startech process operates at a
temperature which is higher than that, then the result is going to be a
reduction in the overall energy efficiency of the process. I do not, of
course, know that they are operating above that temperature, but my gut
reaction to the temperatures listed on their website is that they are too
high, probably because they are distracted by the  goal of turning the
inorganic materials into slag, rather than focused exclusively on energy
efficiency. --MJ}***

,
>and that a generation of 30,000 degrees F in temperature within a conducting
>gas would allow for even the production of mono-atomic hydrogen if the gases
>are collected before they are allowed to combine with outside air.  I
>realize that you are an advocate of raising the CO2 levels in the
>atmosphere, and you may even be correct about this having a beneficial
>effect on the growth rate of plants and the overall health of animal life,
>but equating that with or advocating the burning of diesel oil or gasoline
>in today's IC engines and heating appliances as a means to produce CO2

***{I advocate respect for people's rights. That means I support the idea
that manufacturers ought to be free to produce and sell internal combustion
engines and heating appliances that burn hydrocarbon fuels, and that
consumers ought to be free to buy them. However, I also support the rights
of manufacturers to produce fuel cells, mini-nuke power plants, electrics,
hybrids, and anything else they think they can sell, as well as the rights
of consumers to buy them. At the present, the most efficient choice seems
to be IC engines and heaters that burn hydrocarbons, since that is what
most people are buying. However, I have no objection if, in the future,
changes in technology cause an increase in the demand for the sorts of
things you prefer, and a reduction or even elimination of the demand for
the methods that are popular today, provided that those changes come about
due to the voluntary choices of all of the participants. Bottom line: I do
not believe that governments can solve social problems by violating
property rights, and it is the attempt to do so to which I object. --MJ}***

, both
>of which produce significant amounts of deadly poisonous gases and
>semi-solids (unburned gases) in the process, along with the harmful
>additives such as lead, MBTB's (or whatever the lead substitutes are
>called), sulfur, perfumes, colorants and all the rest of the crap that goes
>out of a tailpipe or exhaust stack is not logical, nor is it necessary.

***{You are entitled to your opinion, and you have the right to buy and
sell on the basis of that opinion. You do not, however, have the right to
dictate the choices made by others, and the government does not have the
right to assist you in doing so. --MJ}***

In
>fact Mitch, it is exactly the kind of crazy logic that the oil companies are
>using to justify the prolongation of the use their product.  Why a smart guy
>like yourself repeats such an obviously contradicting fallacy that comes
>straight from oil companies' lying PR firms is beyond me, but I'm sure you
>have your *logical* reasons ;)

***{I repeat: I believe in respecting the rights of others. That's all
there is to it. If "environmentalists," acting on their own volition,
choose to ride bicycles or to coast down the highways using masts and
sails, that's fine with me. Unfortunately, most of those who are inclined
to pursue such fantasies are also inclined to use the instrumentality of
government to force the rest of us to do likewise. In my view, to the
extent that they do that, they are criminals, nothing more, and nothing
less. --MJ}***

>
>A finer, more efficient and less polluting way of generating electrical
>energy is apparently possible with this type of plasma technology when
>organic wastes are treated by running the resulting collected output gases
>through a more efficient electricity producng fuel cell to produce
>electricity.  In addition, mineral and other inorganic materials are
>recovered in the process as well, they are not oxydized, so they become
>re-usable and resaleable again.  Further development of this latter aspect
>could greatly reduce the cost of materials for future construction.

***{It is unclear to me that this process is efficient enough to be
cost-justified. However, that is a matter for the free market to decide. If
it is a viable approach, those who choose to manufacture plasma waste
processing technology will find customers eager to buy, will earn profits,
and will gradually drive their competition out of business. And, if it is
not viable, those who manufacture such devices will remain minor players in
a market dominated by conventional waste processing technology. Either
result is fine by me, provided that government force is not used to dictate
the outcome. --MJ}***

We need
>to do this anyway, and do spend an enormous amount now to do it.
>
>Looked at and utilized as a waste material recycling center/electrical
>energy production system with a net gain in electrical energy output, this
>technology appears to solve a lot of problems.  I think that your lack of
>understanding of the benefits of this type of technology lies in your
>failure or refusal to acknowledge the differences between the limited
>abilities of normal combustion and the superior plasma generation effects.

***{No. I merely suspect that the manufacturers of this technology have
allowed themselves to be distracted by "environmentalist"
concerns--specifically: that they are not focused merely on the energy
efficiency of their gadgets, but also on the goal of reducing inorganic
materials to slag. To me, any heat employed to convert cans and bottles to
slag is wasted: they can be dumped into a landfill *as is*. Over time, due
to corrosion, diagenesis, and the pressure of the overburden, they will be
compacted down to their minimum dimensions anyway, without the necessity of
our investing energy to accomplish that goal. --MJ}***

>I also think that if you really wanted to get yourself off of the grid in an
>environmentally friendly fashion, that you could have done so long ago.

***{As previously noted, I consider Earth to be a CO2 starved planet, and,
as a consequence, I consider the internal combustion engine and the
conventional furnace to be environmentally friendly in the extreme. That
means any technology which I substitute for such devices is extremely
likely to be less environmentally friendly than they are, due to the
lessened emissions of CO2. Result: I am not trying to get off of the grid
in an environmentally friendly fashion, but in a cost effective fashion. In
other words, when I go off the grid, I want my electricity bills to go
down, not up. If you can tell me how to accomplish that, please do so.
--MJ}***

>Many people have already done it using numerous different approaches, some
>of them quite unsophisticated, but effective nonetheless, and without making
>any great sacrifices or major changes in their lifestyles.  If you are
>waiting for the Rockefellers or whomever to become saints, and hand you a
>perfect solution to your energy and garbage disposal needs on a platter for
>free, then prepare yourself for a good long wait.
>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 22 10:31:00 2000
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:28:47 -0700
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Nov 22 2000&nbsp;&nbsp; Hello George Weiss,&nbsp;&nbsp; The author of the
report is
<br>Jed Rothwell, an editor of Infinite Energy magazine, an expert
<br>in Japanese and in programming, who is a fervent cold fusion
<br>supporter.&nbsp; However, he often offers critical appraisals, which
<br>I agree with.&nbsp;&nbsp; I myself am a pragmatic skeptic, willing
to
<br>appreciate substantial, replicable evidence of an anomaly, but
<br>so far unconvinced, after four years of examining various
<br>published papers by leading researchers in detail.&nbsp; I'll take
<br>a look at your website.
<p>Rich Murray&nbsp; rmforall earthlink.net
<p>Institute for Basic Research wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Dear Mr. Murray,
<p>Please give us information on the underwater electric arc experiment
<br>mentionedf by the physicists of Howard Univerasity.
<p>Regarding the over-unity of magnegas you are very superficial in
<br>throwing judtments with zero knwoeldge. You should inspect the web
site
<p><a href="http://www.magnegfas.com">http://www.magnegfas.com&nbsp; [
http://www.magnegas.com&nbsp; ?]</a>
<p>go to the Description of the technology and then in the section on the
<br>independent verification of the over-unity by motorfuelers Inc, a
<br>independent chain of labs.
<p>You should know that these types of superficial throwing kind opf
<br>judgment, thopse withoyut the sepoaration of facts from fiction, are
the
<br>very origin of the coimplete lack of credibility by your community
<br>vis-a-vis the orthgodox community.
<p>Moreover =, in your zero-technical knowledge of magnegas, you do not
<br>know that the certification by Motorfuelers was done long time ago
for a
<br>MANUALLY OPERATED reactor. Despite that the certified "commercial
<br>over-unity" was 3.12 including the heat of the reactor. USMagnegas
has
<br>now dramatically better reactors which are completely automatic on
which
<br>production has just initiated.
<p>In view of the above, I REQUEST THAT YOU SEND A CORRECTIVE STATEMENT
TO
<br>THE EFFECT THAT YOU WERE UNAWARE OF THE INDEPEDNENT CERTIFICATION OF
THE
<br>COMMERCIAL OVER-UNITY OF MAGNEGAS AND PROVIDE THE URL WHERE THE INFOR
IS
<br>AVAIL,ABLE.
<p>George F. Weiss
<br>Editorial; Manager
<br>Institute for Basic Research
<p>__________________________________________
<br>THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
<br>P. O. Box 1577
<br>Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A.
<br>Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275
<br>E-address ibr gte.net
<br>Web sites
<br><a href="http://www.i-b-r.org">http://www.i-b-r.org</a>
<br><a href="http://www.santillimagnegas.com">http://www.santillimagnegas.com</a>
<br>_________________________________________</blockquote>
</html>

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On Wednesday, November 22, 2000, at 11:04 AM, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Result: I am not trying to get off of the grid 
> in an environmentally friendly fashion, but in a cost effective fashion. In 
> other words, when I go off the grid, I want my electricity bills to go 
> down, not up. If you can tell me how to accomplish that, please do so. 
>  
Hi Mitchell,

Have you looked at the GE MicroGen?  It's a natural gas or propane powered fuel cell that generates electricity and is a hot water & home heating cogenerator. Look at

	http://www.gemicrogen.com/homegen_prod_desc.html

It generates about 7kW continuous and up to 15kW peak.

Most gas utilities will give you substantially reduced rates it you generate electricity from gas.


Alex Karahalios

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 22, 2000
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:19:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 24 Nov 00   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: PUTIN WANTS FEWER NUKES.  Bill Clinton, you
may recall, declined to make a decision on deployment of Star
Wars Lite, leaving it to his successor (WN 1 SEP 00).  Russian
President Vladimir Putin, desperate for money to modernize
conventional forces, can't wait.  In a statement directed at
Washington, Putin called for "radically lowering" the costly
nuclear arsenal.  He seems to be offering to ammend the ABM
Treaty and let the US waste its resources on a missile defense,
if the US agrees to joint reductions below 1,500 warheads.

2. RUSH HOLT DECLARES VICTORY with a 481 vote lead (WN 10 NOV
00), but challenger Dick Zimmer isn't giving up that easily. Once
the final 400-500 ballots are tallied, he vows to seek a recount,
and will pursue allegations that Democrats committed large-scale
voter fraud. A recount is unlikely to reverse Holt's lead, given
the relative accuracy of New Jersey's chad-less balloting system.
     
3. THEY'RE DUMPING MIR WHERE? Russia is finally giving up on the
battered hulk of Mir, which is to be dropped into the Pacific
900-1200 miles east of Australia next February. Great news for
the cash strapped Russian Space Agency, but not so great for
residents of New Zealand, 1300 miles east of Australia. Local
experts seem unfazed. Thinking back to the spectacular crash of
Skylab, one commented, "I'm sure they'll do a better job than the
Americans did in 1979." Most upset by the decision is NBC, deep
into planning for 'Destination Mir,' modeled on the reality show
'Survivor.' But they still intend to blast a winner into space.
Show creator Mark Burnett says "I really want to do a space
show.... I can't be a big baby at the first sight of a problem."
For those worried about falling space debris, WN notes that while
wearing a protective paper hat made from "What's New," your odds
of being hit are guaranteed to be less than one in a billion.

4. BOOK REVIEW: "ICONS OF EVOLUTION" BY JONATHON WELLS.  There
are lots of unscientific books out there, but only a few of them
are truly anti-science; this one qualifies.  Wells seems
particularly incensed by Dobzhansky's 1937 observation that
nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. 
Nonsense, says Wells, it all makes perfect sense once you realize
that a supernatural intelligence decides everything.  Who are we
to ask why this intelligence chose to trick us with false clues?  
Genes, we learn, aren't the whole story.  "If our developmental
genes are similar to those of other animals," he puffs "why don't
we give birth to fruit flies instead of human beings?"  (Clearly,
we do give birth to fruits.)  Wells also frets over a conspiracy,
led by a "small faction in the National Academy" who have
"exploited the Academy's reputation to propagate Darwinian
dogma".  But he's confident that scientists will retaliate once
they "realize what is being done in their names."  Yawn.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 22 14:24:35 2000
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Way back in March of this year we starting talking about a high fidelity 
replication of one of Mills light water electrolysis experiments.  Well, 
there have been many delays and distractions since then but this experiment 
is finally underway!

The Dewar-based differential calorimeter appears to be reasonably 
well-behaved.  It has a thermal time constant of 18 hours, and achieves the 
same sensitivity that Mills got: about 40 degrees C per watt.  In a 100 
hour zero run, the temperature difference between the two Dewars was less 
than 1 milliwatt's worth!

An introduction to the experiment, with photos, can be found at:

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/intro.html

We started the first active run today, a duplicate of Mills' Experiment #1, 
(see data table on page 479 in his 1996 book).  Due to the large time 
constant, it will be 3 or 4 days before equilibration is achieved (now 
would be a good time to develop a computed de-smearing algorithm).

However, our gas flow rate apparatus is immediately functional and I can 
now report that, under the same conditions Mills used in his experiment #1 
(i.e. 83 mA electrolysis current), only 7% of the electrolysis gas produced 
in the cell actually leaves the cell.  In other words, 93% of the gas 
recombines within the cell.  The degree of recombination is not perfectly 
stable and is presently varying slowly from 92-94%.

Unfortunately Mills did not measure the degree of recombination in his 
experiment.  In his data table (p. 479), the output/input ratio is 
calculated with the assumption that no recombination was occurring in the 
cell.  Assuming that my observed recombination rate was also occurring in 
Mills cells greatly reduces...but does not eliminate...his reported excess 
heat.

In due course we will also try the control experiment using Na2CO3 
electrolyte, on which Mills reported no excess heat (also with the 
assumption that no recombination was occurring).  We will also try the 
square-wave driven experiment on which Mills reported the largest ratio of 
output/input power...1630%!!!

Stay tuned for further developments.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Happy Thanksgiving everyone!




HOW AN INDIVIDUAL SETTLES INTO A NEW OPINION
>From William James' PRAGMATISM...

The process is always the same. 

The individual has a stock of old opinions already. 

The individual meets a new experience that puts some of these old opinions
to a strain. 

   Somebody contradicts them. 

   In a reflective moment, the individual discovers that they contradict
   each other. 

   The individual hears of facts with which they are incompatible. 

   Desires arise in the individual which the old opinions fail to satisfy. 

The result is inward trouble, to which the individual's mind till then had
been a stranger. 

The individual seeks to escape from this inward trouble by modifying the
old opinions. 

   The individual saves as many of the old opinions as is possible (for in
   this matter we are all extreme conservatives). 

   Old opinions resist change very variously. 

   The individual tries to change this and then that. 

Finally, some new opinion comes up which the individual can graft upon the
ancient stock of old opinions with a minimum of disturbance to the others. 

   The new opinion mediates between the stock and the new experience. 

   The new opinion runs the stock and the new experience into one another
   most felicitously and expediently. 

The new opinion is then adapted as the true one. 

   The new opinion preserves the older stock of truths with a minimum of
   modification, stretching them just enough to make them admit the
   novelty, but conceiving that in ways as familiar as the case leaves
   possible. 

  An outree' explanation, violating all our preconceptions, would never
  pass for a true account of a novelty.

The most violent revolutions in an individual's beliefs leave most of his
old order standing. 

New truth is always a go-between, a smoother-over of transitions. 

The point I now urge you to observe particularly is the part played by the
older truths . . . their influence is absolutely controlling. Loyalty to
them is the first principle; for by far the most usual way of handling
phenomena so novel that they would make for a serious rearrangement of our
preconceptions is to ignore them altogether, or to abuse those who bear
witness for them. 

http://www.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/james.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Subject:   Comment on Fox's Paper
   Date:     Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:21:18 -0700
  From:     "Hal Fox" <halfox uswest.net>
    To:      <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>, <rmforall@earthlink.net>

Date:  22 November 2000
From:  Hal Fox <halfox slkc.uswest.net>
Jed,

You might like to mention (in connection with your report on
Fox's paper) that the HDCC work has been independently discovered
(much more than verified) in three different countries.  Also,
there are six patents issued in the U.S.  Not too bad considering
that is far beyond the cold fusion patents issued in the U.S.
One of the patents lists the data for 30 times as much energy out
as energy in.

The Mills device has raised over $20 million and is now being
supported by an investment banking group.  They are developing a
new type of battery based on hydrino chemistry (not hydrogen
chemistry).

AquaFuel is a patented product.  A company has been formed, money
raised, and the equipment commercialized.

MagneGas is similar to AquaFuel but is a Santilli invention that
is, as I understand, patent-pending.

Tom Bearden finally, after many years, has a working device which
has been replicated at one university and is called a "Motionless
Electromagnetic Generator" (patent pending).

Now Jed:  Which of the cold fusion devices should I include in
the list of new-energy devices that are being commercialized?

Anyway, thanks for saying "I like Hal Fox personally"

Best personal regards,  Hal Fox




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IBR: Weiss: Magnegas details, Santilli papers 11.22.00

Subject:  Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:00:14 -0500
From:   Institute for Basic Research <ibr gte.net>
Organization:  Institute for Basic Research
To:   Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>, ibr@gte.net

If you are a serious person, it is not enough to "take a look" before
damaging serious efforts to improve your future and that by your
children. USMagnegas Inc.,. is a fully owned subsidiary of a PUBLIC
COMPANY. If you think that they can lie or throw things as you do, you
are way off.
I insist again on the request that, following your study of
the evidence, you sent a retraction to all recipient
George F. Weiss

Copy to the CEO of EarthFirst Technologies, Inc. and to the CEO of
USMagnegas, Inc.__________________________________________
THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
P. O. Box 1577
Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A.
Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275
E-address ibr gte.net
Web sites
http://www.i-b-r.org
http://www.santillimagnegas.com
***********************************************************

Nov 22 2000  Hello George Weiss,

I've taken an hour to select a few lines from your extensive, detailed
websites.
It's good that you make so much information available on the Net.
>From here on, my comments will be in brackets   [  ]  .

Rich Murray  rmforall earthlink.net

http://www.santillimagnegas.com/part1.htm#1.2. PLASMA

[This explains that a powerful DC arc is maintained between a
carbon cathode and a tungsten anode, heating a stream of H2O
bearing a variety of hydrocarbons.  However, the diagram shows
the positive source going to the cathode, contrary to usual
practice.]

According to numerous mass spectrographic analyses conducted by
NATIONAL TECHNICAL SYSTEMS, McClellan Air Force Base,
Sacramento, California, and in other analytic laboratories, we have the
following:
Conventional Molecular Structure of Magnegases of Organic Origin:

 H2 40%-45%; CO 55%-60%; O2 11%-12%; CO2  1%-2%.

[ I recall that the famous chemist SIR HUMPHRY DAVY (1778-1829)
nearly killed himself by his standard experimental assay
for a newly produced gas-- inhalation, what in this case
was a mixture of CO and H2, later widely produced and
used commerically as "water gas".  In 1827, Davy became seriously ill.
The illness was later attributed to his inhalation of many gases over
the years.]

1.3.C. CHEMICAL STRUCTURE OF COMBUSTION EXHAUSTS:
Therefore, Magnegas� exhaust has a
conventional chemical structure (as given above).
In essence, the hydrogen content combines with oxygen
to produce water vapors of
about 60%; some of the CO is separated into C and O;
after all available H has combined with O to produced the water vapor,
the remaining O is released as breathable oxygen in about 12%-14%;
a smaller part of CO is oxidized into CO2 in about 6%-8%;
a percentage of carbon is released as solid precipitates in about
12%-15%;
and the remaining components of the exhaust are of atmospheric origin.

1.5.C. SCIENTIFIC ENERGY BALANCE
 The scientific energy balance is different than the commercial one,
and consists of the ratio between the total final energy
(Magnegas� +  heat + dissipations)
divided by the total initial energy
(electric energy + energy in liquid),
which ratio is always smaller than one, due to the
conservation of the total initial energy
and other physical and chemical laws,
which are rigorously verified by all versions of Santilli's
Hadronic Reactors�. Other factors, such as the energy used
in the production of the electrodes and of the equipment have
a comparatively  small, thus ignorable contribution.

http://www.i-b-r.org/index.htm#Curriculum

IBR Research in Mathematics, Physics, and Chemistry
Check the latest listing
18. The new iso-, geno-, and hyper-mathematics of hadronic mechanics

19. Conceptual, theoretical and experimental foundations of hadronic
mechanics
[2.15.97 and 10.3.99]

     The fundamental physical notion of this Web Page
is that of �hyperparticles� in nonconservative and irreversible
conditions which admits all other simpler notions of particles
as particular cases. The fundamental mathematical
notion is the characterization of hyperparticles via
irreducible bi-isomodular representation of Lie-admissible
groups and algebras. The emerging structure of
hadronic mechanics includes as particular cases all existing
models, not only those of genotopic, isotopic and
conventional type, but also string, supersymmetric and other
models. These notions are evidently too complex
for the limited objectives of this Web Page, and simpler forms of
particles and their representations will be used.

     As Prof. A. Jannussis of the University of Patras
stated in his opening talk of the International Conference on
the Frontiers of Physics (held in Olympia, Greece, in 1993)

"Hadronic mechanics supersedes all theories to date."

REFERENCE FOR SECT. 1:
For hadronic mechanics, see the memoir
and the large literature quoted therein:
[I-1] R. M. Santilli, Relativistic Hadronic Mechanics:
Nonunitary Axiom-Preserving Completion of Relativistic
Quantum Mechanics,
Foundations of Physics, Vol. 27, pages 635-729, 1997.

For the inconsistencies of generalzied theories treated
with conventional mathematics see the memoir:
[I-2] R. M. Santilli, Origin, problematic aspects and
invariant formulation of classical and quantum deformations,
Intern. J. Modern Phys. A, Vol. 14, pages 3157-3239, 1999

For Santilli's isospecial relativity and related unification
of special and general relatviities, see the memoir:
[I-3] R. M. Santilli, Isominkowskian geometry for the
gravitational treatment of matter and its isodual for
antimatter,
Intern. J. Modern Phys. D, Vol. 7, pages 351-407 (1998)

For the Iso-Grand-Unification including electroweak and
gravitational interactions for matter and antimatter in
exterior and interior conditions, see the Proceedings
of the VII M. Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity and
Gravitation, Jerusalem, June 1997, and the letter:
[I-4] R. M. Santilli,
Isotopic grand unification with the inclusion of gravity,
Founnd. Phys. Letters, Vol. 10, pages 307-327 , 1997.

For the explicit realization of hidden variables provided
by hadronic mechanics, related lifting of Pauli's matrices
and Bell's inequalities, see:
[1-5] R. M. Santilli, Isorepresentatios of the Lie-isotopic
SU(2) algebras, with applications to nuclear physics, and
local realism:
Acta Applicandae Mathematicae, Vol. 50, pages 177-190, 1998.

For experimental evidence supporting Santilli's
isominkowskian geometry, isopoincare' symmetry, and isospecial
relativity within the hyperdense media inside hadrons, see
[I-6] Yuy. Arestov,
Evidence on the isominkowskian character of hAdronic structure,
Foundations of Physics Letters, Vol. 11, pages 483-493, 1998.

For the Lie-Santilli isotheory, see the monograph:
[16] Gr. Tsagas and D. Sourlas, Mathematical Foundations of
the Lie-Santilli theory, Ukraine Academy of sciences, Kiuev (1991).

For the Poincare'-Santilli isosymmetry, see the memoir:
[1-7] J. V. Kadeisvili,
An introduction to the Lie-Santilli isotheory,
Mathematiical Metrhods in Applied Sciences,
Vol. 19, pages 1349-1395, 1996.

[I'm listing this to show that Ruggero Maria Santilli seems to have
published many very abstruse papers,
in case those far more competent than I might be
curious to assess them.]

20. Applications of hadronic mechanics to new, clean, over-unity fuels
and energies

[A cursory scan of the many pages of # 20 did not reveal adaquate proof
of anomalies or evidence of radical new physics by verifiably
independent
and competent researchers.]
*************************************************************



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Krieg: long list of free energy claims 11.23.00

http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html
Eric's History of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy
Machines   by Eric Krieg  eric voicenet.com
dozens of free energy claims, from 13th century to recent


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 24 09:46:23 2000
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:44:33 EST
Subject: Statement from LaFonte Research Group
To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com,
        newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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The LaFonte Research Group will not proclaim that it DEFINITELY has an 
overunity device until that device is self sustaining.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

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Subject: Re: Snell's law, and total internal reflection & String Circle Particles
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It seems like the conversion of a photon of Energy E, into a Particle
Pair (+/- charge) each with energy 0.5 E is dictated by a property of
the vacuum that obeys Snell's Law of Total internal Reflection:

Sin Theta critical = (eo/ep)^1/2  where the permittivity of the vacuum
is (eo) slightly less than the permittivity of the particle (ep).

 http://buphy.bu.edu/py106/notes/Refraction.html

The Fine Structure Constant Alpha (0.00729729) might be a Universal
Constant that sets  90.00 - 0.4181 degrees as the angle of incidence
of the EM waves on this induced boundary  to localize a String Circle
Particle in space, like the conditions of discontinuity on a transmission
line can "trap" an EM pulse and form a stationary wave.

Nature's Cavity Resonator?

Regards,   Frederick

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This also covers the Phase and Group Velocity of a moving electron/lepton,
which is c*alpha in the Bohr Ground State orbit.

 http://www.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109N/more_stuff/Applets/sines/GroupVelocity.html

According to mvr = hbar, the phase velocity of a String Circle Particle 
(Electron with a radius of 2.81E-15 meters, m = 9.1E-31  kg)is 137*c, 
or c*1/alpha.

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 24 18:58:23 2000
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Another bit of number crunching in regards to a sine wave-circle/particle:

Sin 0.4181 degrees  = Alpha (0.00729729)

Sin^-1 Alpha = 0.4181 degrees

Tan 0.4181 degrees ~ = Alpha (0.00729484)

Tan^-1 Alpha   ~ = 0.4181 degrees

2(pi)/Alpha = 861.0223

360 deg/0.4181 = 861.0223

IOW, as the EM sine wave is being generated and "rotating" at c,
the tangent vector of the wave is "rotating" at c/Alpha or 137*c,
which is the Phase Velocity. 

Would that be a "Universal Constant", Robin?

Regards,     Frederick


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Subject:  Ethical problems
    Date:   Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:51:21 -0500
   From:   Institute for Basic Research <ibr gte.net>
 Organization:   Institute for Basic Research
        To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>,
USMG Michael Toups <mtoups toupstech.com>,
           ibr gte.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com

I request that the message below be sent to all individuals who
originally recerived Mr. Murray trash.
George F. Weiss  IBR
*******************************

Mister Murray !

We have ethical problems with your end statement

[A cursory scan of the many pages of # 20 did not reveal adaquate [sic]
proof of anomalies or evidence of radical new physics by verifiably
independent and competent researchers.]

because you intentionally deny the evidence for personal ego-gain the
evidence at

http://www.santillinmagnegas.com

and then in the subpage of the first section of the Scientific
Description

http://www.santillimagnegas.com/ir00020b.htm#3.4. EXPERIMENTAL

where real scientists in real good faith can find a variety of
INDEPENDENTLY done GS-MS tests, including an air force bas, a forensic
lab. two universities (do you want more?) on Santilli's new chemical
special of magnecules which consists of stable clusters of atoms (sic)
and molecules in macroscopic percentages which all result to be UNKNOWN
under the MS scan after checking with all known molecules, and NONE of
them has any IR signature, thus confirming that the bond is not valence.

Thre new species has been called by Prof. Santilli "magnecules" because
they are created under the extremely intense magnetic fields of electric

arc which are of the order of millions of Gauss at molecular distances
from the arc. the same page presents I DEPENDENT evidence of magnecules
at both the gaseous and liquid state, as well as the impossibility of
identifying the chemical composition of MagneGas with conventional
analytic methods.

The above evidence establishes that you are an unethical person, because

throwing judgment while intentionally suppressing the evidence for your
own ego-gain. Any statment to the effects that the above evidence can be

interpreted via quantum chemistry is pure human trash. Period.

Your comparison of mnagengas to the old mixture of H2 and CO proved
again ethical misconduct: you throw judgments damaging the efforts to
reach new clean energies and fuels without a prior serious study.

Your additional statment that this guy died because of breathing a fuel
is also rotten. ALL FUELS ARE POISONOUS, as everybody knows (tests have
shown that lab animal die within one hour from ingesting the gasoline
you pump every day in your tank). The serious issue raised by serious
scientists is: THE EXHAUST HAVE TO BE CLEAN! BECAUSE THE EXHAUST ARE
INHALED BY ALL, NOT THE FUEL. That's what magnegas does, but you
intentionally suppress the info, thus violating basic rules of
scientific ethics. To make your statment credible and released in good
faith you must prove that you drink gasoline every morning in lieu of
coffee.

But that's just the beginning.

Let us now do a little physics chemistry (because too much would be too
much for you). In t throwing judgment I assume you have at least an
absolute minimum t technical knwoeldge of processes underlying the
PlasmaArcFlow Technology. If you do, you are then expected to know that
the computation of all many several steps leading to the formation of a
plasma by an underwater arc requires more than 2000 BTU of electric
energy per cubic foot of plasma, as a result of which the separation of
water is well known all over the world to be grossly UNDER-unity.

Now, look at the experimental evidence INDEPENDENTLY CERTIFIED by the
chain of laboratories Motorfuelers Inc.

http://www.santillimagnegas.com/part1.htm#1.5.D. CERTIFICATION

Other serious scientists (not you) see there the measurement down to 350

BTU of electricity per cf of magnegas produced and a 2.78 over-unity.
bear in mind that the above neasurements were done in 1998 with the very

first MANUALLY OPERATED hadronic reactors, and that SUM agendas hs now
completely automatic reactors in PRODUCTION FOR SALE with a much bigger
overunity and the electric energy per cf down to 85 W = 290 BT/cf.

The above data prove that, besides being an unethical person, you are
ignorant on real science,  because you have have ZERO technical
knwoeldge of new energies and then processes underlying them. In fact,
any statment that the above over-unity and the processes underlying the
PlasmaArcFlow technology can be explained via conventional quantum
mechanics and chemistry is PURE HUMAN TRASH because THE ERROR OF THE
OLD-DECREPIT MECHANICS YOU SO MUCH LOVE FOR YOUR PERSONAL GAINS IS TEN
!!!! THAT IS, THE PREDICTION OF THESE OLD-DECREPIT THEORIES IS TEN TIME
- I REPEAT TEN TIME - THE SCIENTIFIC REALITY.

There is a limit b beyond which intentional, premeditated misbehaviour
must be denounce ed as such because the environment is deteriorating too

,much and too fast to permit dances such as your. It is time to qualify
corrupt individual for what they are: corrupt individuals.

You are one if them.

There is no point in mentioning deeper and more serious departures of
Santilli's technology from your beloved old-decrepit theories because
oceanically beyond your Enquirer-type of knowledge.

And then, your compl;etely ignoring the hadronic  generalization of
quantum mechanics and the some many new clean energies that it has
predicted? This is intentional, premeditated, ca,mufflaged desire to
DAMAGE serious efforts on new clean energy. You are a real ennemy of
America bearing the US passport.

I still insist that you send our a retraction of your trash, in which
absence I shall exercise pressure on EarthFirst Technologies (the public

parent company) to sue you, because it is time to stop all this trashy
behavior issues by nonscientists which is so damaging our Country and
our need for new advances.

George F. Weiss  Editorial Manager
INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES
HADRONIC JOURNAL       HADRONIC J. SUPPL.

COPY TO THE CEOs OF UMAGNEGAS AND
EARTHFIRST TECHNOLOGIES REQUESTING THE
HIRING OFD AN ATTORNEY ON THE CASE
__________________________________________
THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
P. O. Box 1577
Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A.
Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275
E-address ibr gte.net
Web sites
http://www.i-b-r.org
http://www.santillimagnegas.com
_________________________________________



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 24 20:56:38 2000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
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At 9:09 PM -0700 11/24/00, Rich Murray quotes George Weiss:


>I still insist that you send our a retraction of your trash, in which
>absence I shall exercise pressure on EarthFirst Technologies (the public
>
>parent company) to sue you, because it is time to stop all this trashy
>behavior issues by nonscientists which is so damaging our Country and
>our need for new advances.
>
>George F. Weiss  Editorial Manager
>INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
>ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES
>HADRONIC JOURNAL       HADRONIC J. SUPPL.
>
>COPY TO THE CEOs OF UMAGNEGAS AND
>EARTHFIRST TECHNOLOGIES REQUESTING THE
>HIRING OFD AN ATTORNEY ON THE CASE
>__________________________________________
>THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
>P. O. Box 1577
>Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A.
>Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275
>E-address ibr gte.net
>Web sites
>http://www.i-b-r.org
>http://www.santillimagnegas.com
>_________________________________________


Gee, *another* lawsuit. Oh to be a lawyer in Florida these days. 
Paradise for the pigs!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 24 22:33:33 2000
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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:32:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mills replication begins
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--- Scott Little <little earthtech.org> wrote:
> Way back in March of this year we starting talking about a high fidelity 
> replication of one of Mills light water electrolysis experiments.  Well, 
> there have been many delays and distractions since then but this
> experiment 
> is finally underway!

Glad to hear this, Scott.

>However, our gas flow rate apparatus is immediately functional and I can 
>now report that, under the same conditions Mills used in his experiment #1

>(i.e. 83 mA electrolysis current), only 7% of the electrolysis gas
produced 
>in the cell actually leaves the cell.  In other words, 93% of the gas 
>recombines within the cell.  The degree of recombination is not perfectly
>stable and is presently varying slowly from 92-94%.
>
>Unfortunately Mills did not measure the degree of recombination in his 
>experiment.  In his data table (p. 479), the output/input ratio is 
>calculated with the assumption that no recombination was occurring in the
>cell. Assuming that my observed recombination rate was also occurring in
>Mills cells greatly reduces...but does not eliminate...his reported
>excess heat.

I am also pleased to see your measurement of recombination. A long time
ago, when we discussed the NASA attempt to replicate Mills, I read up on
electrochemistry. I discovered that there is usually a few mA/cm^2
recombination of H2 + O2 at the cathode. Pons-Fleischmann cells are
operated at 100 ma/cm^2 and more, so such small recombination is
negligible, a fact famously ignored by Jones. However, at the low current
densities used by Mills and a few others in their electrolysis, high
recombination fractions are to be expected---just as you measure.




=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 24 22:41:57 2000
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Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:46:03 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
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At 6:55 PM 11/24/0, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Gee, *another* lawsuit. Oh to be a lawyer in Florida these days.
>Paradise for the pigs!

Gee, I must be getting senile or something.  I thought George Weiss was pro
public domian free energy development, or is that some other guy whose name
I have confused with his?   I can't imagine someone so pro public domain
development being so eager to squash academic scientific discussion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 25 03:15:36 2000
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
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Horace writes:
>Gee, I must be getting senile or something.  I thought George Weiss was pro
>public domian free energy development, or is that some other guy whose name
>I have confused with his?   I can't imagine someone so pro public domain
>development being so eager to squash academic scientific discussion.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

Hi Horace,

I think you may have him confused with George Wiseman of Eagle Research, who
indeed is an advocate of open source, public domain product development.
And, if I could get as senile as you, I'd be happy about it.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 25 07:21:32 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mills replication begins
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At 10:32 PM 11/24/0, Michael Schaffer wrote:
[snip]
>I am also pleased to see your measurement of recombination. A long time
>ago, when we discussed the NASA attempt to replicate Mills, I read up on
>electrochemistry. I discovered that there is usually a few mA/cm^2
>recombination of H2 + O2 at the cathode. Pons-Fleischmann cells are
>operated at 100 ma/cm^2 and more, so such small recombination is
>negligible, a fact famously ignored by Jones. However, at the low current
>densities used by Mills and a few others in their electrolysis, high
>recombination fractions are to be expected---just as you measure.


Yes, and it appears, from experience, that if there is an AC component that
permits even a brief voltage reversal, due to a bad choice of diode or
circuit specifications, and use of an unfiltered supply, the recombination
rate per cm^2 can increase greatly over that experienced for DC.  I doubt
this kind of thing affected the Pons-Fleischman results, but it may have
affected some of the early experiments which used ordinary cheap recepticle
mounted DC power packs.  I would suspect a strong AC component in any
electrospark experiment due to the fast spark dynamics, possibly including
current reversals at the electrode surface, unless sensing probes were
attached directy to the electrodes that showed no such reversals.

A high recombination rate at the surface of the electrode puts a lot of the
circuit energy into the very small volume at the interface, and may be a
useful in generating the steam layer on the electrode surface.  For this
reason, electrospark experiments might actualy benefit from designing a
brief current reversal in each cycle.  This aids formation of the steam
layer and minimizes the amount of escaping explosive gas that requires
recombination for safety.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 25 07:26:42 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
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At 5:48 PM 11/25/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:46:03 -0900:

>[snip]
>You're thinking of George Wiseman.


At 6:15 AM 11/25/0, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>I think you may have him confused with George Wiseman of Eagle Research, who
>indeed is an advocate of open source, public domain product development.
>And, if I could get as senile as you, I'd be happy about it.


OK, thanks guys.  Well that confirms it!  I'm on my way to senility, or
maybe have already arrived and didn't know it!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:14:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Alpha and the Phase Velocity of a Wave-Circle
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At 7:53 PM 11/24/0, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Another bit of number crunching in regards to a sine wave-circle/particle:
>
>Sin 0.4181 degrees  = Alpha (0.00729729)
>
>Sin^-1 Alpha = 0.4181 degrees
>
>Tan 0.4181 degrees ~ = Alpha (0.00729484)
>
>Tan^-1 Alpha   ~ = 0.4181 degrees


These are coincidental due to the fact that lim x-> 0, sin x -> x, x in radians.

If you solve:

   sin^-1 x = tan^-1 x

   sin(tan^-1(x)) = x

you obtain:

   x = 0

Evaluating, you obtain:

  sin(tan^-1(0.4181 deg.)) = 0.385741879319

  sin(tan^-1(0.3 deg.)) = 0.287347885566

  sin(tan^-1(0.1 deg.)) = 0.099503719021

  sin(tan^-1(0.01 deg.)) = 0.0099995000375

It appears that the precision to 4 digits, i.e. to 0.4181 degrees, is
merely due to the small size of Alpha, not to the presence of some
universal constant.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: (fwd) Re: Sparks
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:10:59 +1100
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On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:35:55 -0800, "Jeff W. Parisse"
<jparisse teslacoil.com> wrote:

>Robin,
>
>There are NO retouched photos on our website. What you are
>NOT seeing are the discharge electrodes we place on the toroid
>to direct the energy to a grounded target. Without these electrodes
>(stiff copper wire taped to the toroid) the sparks would emanate from
>the toroid's surface.
>
>Jeff
>
>Fsec info can be found on the equipment page (I think).
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Mr. R. van Spaandonk 
>  To: sales teslacoil.com 
>  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 8:02 PM
>  Subject: Sparks
>
>
>  Hi,
>   
>  I notice that in the photo on your home page, the sparks don't actually start at the coil. They appear to start in mid air at some distance from the toroid. The background light from the roof also appears to be distorted in this region. Has the photo b
een retouched, or is this what happens in reality? If the latter, then could you tell me if the background distortion effect also occurs between sparks (i.e. when there aren't any), and could you perhaps tell me the frequency that the secondary oscillates
 at?
>
>  TIA,
>   
>  Regards,
>   
>  Robin van Spaandonk
>   

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

Explanations allow people to think for themselves, recipes do not.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 25 18:30:04 2000
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From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: [Off Topic] WHICH CANDIDATE?
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:27:38 -0800
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 >Try this at your next gathering, be it of friends, family, club or
 >patriot group.
 >
 >
 >In each of the past two years, and on the first day of class, Law
 >Professor Butler Shaffer, Southwestern University School of Law,
 >presented his students with the following voting exercise.  Bear in mind
 >
 >that these students knew nothing about the Professor nor had he said
 >anything to them prior to opening up the class with this exercise.
 >
 >Cast your vote to understand why it is vital to teach factual not
 >revisionist history in our private and public institutions of
 >education.  Your comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
 >
 >VOTING EXERCISE
 >
 >"It is time to elect the leader of a great nation, and you have been
 >presented with the following candidates:
 >
 >CANDIDATE 'A'
 >
 >A well-known critic of government, this man has been involved in tax
 >protest movements, and has openly advocated secession, armed rebellion
 >against the existing national government, and even the overthrow of that
 >
 >government.  He is a known member of a militia group that was involved
 >in a shootout with law enforcement authorities.  He opposes gun control
 >efforts of the present national government, as well as restrictions on
 >open immigration into this country.  He is a businessman who as earned
 >his fortune from such businesses as alcohol, tobacco, retailing, and
 >smuggling."
 >
 >CANDIDATE 'B'
 >
 >A decorated army war veteran, this man is an avowed nonsmoker and
 >dedicated public health advocate.  His public health interests include
 >the fostering of medical research and his dedication to eliminating
 >cancer.  He opposes the use of animals in conducting such research.  He
 >has supported restrictions on the use of asbestos, pesticides, and
 >radiation, and favors government determined occupational health and
 >safety standards, as well as the promotion of such foods as whole-grain
 >bread and soybeans.  He is an advocate of government gun-control
 >measures.  An ardent opponent of tobacco, he has supported increased
 >restrictions on both the use of and advertising for tobacco products.
 >Such advertising restrictions include: [1] not allowing tobacco use to
 >be portrayed as harmless or a sign of masculinity; [2] not allowing such
 >
 >advertising to be directed to women; [3] not drawing attention to the
 >low nicotine content of tobacco products; and, [4] limitations as to
 >where such advertisements may be made.  This man is a champion of
 >environmental and conservationist programs, and believes in the
 >importance of sending troops into foreign countries in order to maintain
 >
 >order therein.
 >
 >PLEASE SELECT THE CANDIDATE FOR WHICH YOU WOULD VOTE:
 >
 >CANDIDATE 'A' _____
 >
 >CANDIDATE 'B' _____
 >
 >The combined vote total for these two years (4 classes) is as follows:
 >Candidate "A" 47  votes  25%
 >Candidate "B" 141 votes 75%
 >
 >After collecting all the ballots, the professor inform the students that
 >
 >Candidate 'A' is a composite of the "founding fathers" (e.g., Sam Adams,
 >
 >John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Patrick Henry, etc.,
 >etc.) while Candidate 'B' is Adolph Hitler (see Robert Proctor's book,
 >THE NAZI WAR ON CANCER).
 >
 >An interesting follow-up occurred in one of these classes last year.  In
 >
 >the "commerce clause" segment of constitutional law, the students were
 >discussing the Schechter case - in which the Supreme Court struck down
 >the New Deal's National Industrial Recovery Act.  After describing this
 >Act in some detail, the professor went on to inform his students just
 >how popular state collectivism was throughout the world: Stalin, Hitler,
 >
 >Mussolini, and Franco and Roosevelt being the better known examples; and
 >
 >of how Hitler and Mussolini had been revered by many renowned people
 >throughout the world, including Gandhi, Churchill, etc., etc.  At this
 >point, one student interrupted: "I don't see how you can say that.  How
 >could a man like Adolph Hitler have been popular with so many people?"
 >The professor leaned over the podium and responded: "you tell me...just
 >two weeks ago, 78% of you in this class voted for him."  In about twenty
 >
 >seconds, the room became unbelievably silent.
 
 Have a great day


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 25 21:02:18 2000
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:00:06 -0600
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Not to put my foot in, but this was bugging me so I checked...

The Better Buisness Bureau (www.bbb.org) has no lisying at all for the 
company Motorfuelers Inc. or even (considering the preponderance of typos) 
any company containing motor in its name in the city or zip-code specified 
in the certification.

And no, I did not check the physics, and you can feel free to lambast me on 
that if you wish, but since this certification is apparently so crucial that 
it keeps coming up I did check that.

My two bits
Merlyn



>From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, ibr@gte.net, mtoups@toupstech.com,        
>skeptical egroups.com
>Subject: Weiss: IBR: Magnegas protest 11.24.00
>Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:09:01 -0700
>
>Subject:  Ethical problems
>     Date:   Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:51:21 -0500
>    From:   Institute for Basic Research <ibr gte.net>
>  Organization:   Institute for Basic Research
>         To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>,
>USMG Michael Toups <mtoups toupstech.com>,
>            ibr gte.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com
>
>I request that the message below be sent to all individuals who
>originally recerived Mr. Murray trash.
>George F. Weiss  IBR
>*******************************
>
>Mister Murray !
>
>We have ethical problems with your end statement
>
>[A cursory scan of the many pages of # 20 did not reveal adaquate [sic]
>proof of anomalies or evidence of radical new physics by verifiably
>independent and competent researchers.]
>
>because you intentionally deny the evidence for personal ego-gain the
>evidence at
>
>http://www.santillinmagnegas.com
>
>and then in the subpage of the first section of the Scientific
>Description
>
>http://www.santillimagnegas.com/ir00020b.htm#3.4. EXPERIMENTAL
>
>where real scientists in real good faith can find a variety of
>INDEPENDENTLY done GS-MS tests, including an air force bas, a forensic
>lab. two universities (do you want more?) on Santilli's new chemical
>special of magnecules which consists of stable clusters of atoms (sic)
>and molecules in macroscopic percentages which all result to be UNKNOWN
>under the MS scan after checking with all known molecules, and NONE of
>them has any IR signature, thus confirming that the bond is not valence.
>
>Thre new species has been called by Prof. Santilli "magnecules" because
>they are created under the extremely intense magnetic fields of electric
>
>arc which are of the order of millions of Gauss at molecular distances
>from the arc. the same page presents I DEPENDENT evidence of magnecules
>at both the gaseous and liquid state, as well as the impossibility of
>identifying the chemical composition of MagneGas with conventional
>analytic methods.
>
>The above evidence establishes that you are an unethical person, because
>
>throwing judgment while intentionally suppressing the evidence for your
>own ego-gain. Any statment to the effects that the above evidence can be
>
>interpreted via quantum chemistry is pure human trash. Period.
>
>Your comparison of mnagengas to the old mixture of H2 and CO proved
>again ethical misconduct: you throw judgments damaging the efforts to
>reach new clean energies and fuels without a prior serious study.
>
>Your additional statment that this guy died because of breathing a fuel
>is also rotten. ALL FUELS ARE POISONOUS, as everybody knows (tests have
>shown that lab animal die within one hour from ingesting the gasoline
>you pump every day in your tank). The serious issue raised by serious
>scientists is: THE EXHAUST HAVE TO BE CLEAN! BECAUSE THE EXHAUST ARE
>INHALED BY ALL, NOT THE FUEL. That's what magnegas does, but you
>intentionally suppress the info, thus violating basic rules of
>scientific ethics. To make your statment credible and released in good
>faith you must prove that you drink gasoline every morning in lieu of
>coffee.
>
>But that's just the beginning.
>
>Let us now do a little physics chemistry (because too much would be too
>much for you). In t throwing judgment I assume you have at least an
>absolute minimum t technical knwoeldge of processes underlying the
>PlasmaArcFlow Technology. If you do, you are then expected to know that
>the computation of all many several steps leading to the formation of a
>plasma by an underwater arc requires more than 2000 BTU of electric
>energy per cubic foot of plasma, as a result of which the separation of
>water is well known all over the world to be grossly UNDER-unity.
>
>Now, look at the experimental evidence INDEPENDENTLY CERTIFIED by the
>chain of laboratories Motorfuelers Inc.
>
>http://www.santillimagnegas.com/part1.htm#1.5.D. CERTIFICATION
>
>Other serious scientists (not you) see there the measurement down to 350
>
>BTU of electricity per cf of magnegas produced and a 2.78 over-unity.
>bear in mind that the above neasurements were done in 1998 with the very
>
>first MANUALLY OPERATED hadronic reactors, and that SUM agendas hs now
>completely automatic reactors in PRODUCTION FOR SALE with a much bigger
>overunity and the electric energy per cf down to 85 W = 290 BT/cf.
>
>The above data prove that, besides being an unethical person, you are
>ignorant on real science,  because you have have ZERO technical
>knwoeldge of new energies and then processes underlying them. In fact,
>any statment that the above over-unity and the processes underlying the
>PlasmaArcFlow technology can be explained via conventional quantum
>mechanics and chemistry is PURE HUMAN TRASH because THE ERROR OF THE
>OLD-DECREPIT MECHANICS YOU SO MUCH LOVE FOR YOUR PERSONAL GAINS IS TEN
>!!!! THAT IS, THE PREDICTION OF THESE OLD-DECREPIT THEORIES IS TEN TIME
>- I REPEAT TEN TIME - THE SCIENTIFIC REALITY.
>
>There is a limit b beyond which intentional, premeditated misbehaviour
>must be denounce ed as such because the environment is deteriorating too
>
>,much and too fast to permit dances such as your. It is time to qualify
>corrupt individual for what they are: corrupt individuals.
>
>You are one if them.
>
>There is no point in mentioning deeper and more serious departures of
>Santilli's technology from your beloved old-decrepit theories because
>oceanically beyond your Enquirer-type of knowledge.
>
>And then, your compl;etely ignoring the hadronic  generalization of
>quantum mechanics and the some many new clean energies that it has
>predicted? This is intentional, premeditated, ca,mufflaged desire to
>DAMAGE serious efforts on new clean energy. You are a real ennemy of
>America bearing the US passport.
>
>I still insist that you send our a retraction of your trash, in which
>absence I shall exercise pressure on EarthFirst Technologies (the public
>
>parent company) to sue you, because it is time to stop all this trashy
>behavior issues by nonscientists which is so damaging our Country and
>our need for new advances.
>
>George F. Weiss  Editorial Manager
>INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
>ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES
>HADRONIC JOURNAL       HADRONIC J. SUPPL.
>
>COPY TO THE CEOs OF UMAGNEGAS AND
>EARTHFIRST TECHNOLOGIES REQUESTING THE
>HIRING OFD AN ATTORNEY ON THE CASE
>__________________________________________
>THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH
>P. O. Box 1577
>Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A.
>Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275
>E-address ibr gte.net
>Web sites
>http://www.i-b-r.org
>http://www.santillimagnegas.com
>_________________________________________
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 26 07:37:54 2000
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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:48:38 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> Not to put my foot in, but this was bugging me so I checked...
> 
> The Better Buisness Bureau (www.bbb.org) has no lisying at all for the
> company Motorfuelers Inc. or even (considering the preponderance of typos)
> any company containing motor in its name in the city or zip-code specified
> in the certification.
> 
> And no, I did not check the physics, and you can feel free to lambast me on
> that if you wish, but since this certification is apparently so crucial that
> it keeps coming up I did check that.

Not much on their homepage either:

http://www.motorfuelers.com/

Terry

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Off Topic] WHICH CANDIDATE?
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> >Try this at your next gathering, be it of friends, family, club or
> >patriot group.
> >
> >In each of the past two years, and on the first day of class, Law
> >Professor Butler Shaffer, Southwestern University School of Law,
> >presented his students with the following voting exercise.  Bear in mind
> >that these students knew nothing about the Professor nor had he said
> >anything to them prior to opening up the class with this exercise.
> >
> >Cast your vote to understand why it is vital to teach factual not
> >revisionist history in our private and public institutions of
> >education.  Your comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
> >
> >VOTING EXERCISE
> >
> >"It is time to elect the leader of a great nation, and you have been
> >presented with the following candidates:
> >
> >CANDIDATE 'A'
> >
> >A well-known critic of government, this man has been involved in tax
> >protest movements, and has openly advocated secession, armed rebellion
> >against the existing national government, and even the overthrow of that
> >government.  He is a known member of a militia group that was involved
> >in a shootout with law enforcement authorities.  He opposes gun control
> >efforts of the present national government, as well as restrictions on
> >open immigration into this country.  He is a businessman who as earned
> >his fortune from such businesses as alcohol, tobacco, retailing, and
> >smuggling."
> >
> >CANDIDATE 'B'
> >
> >A decorated army war veteran, this man is an avowed nonsmoker and
> >dedicated public health advocate.  His public health interests include
> >the fostering of medical research and his dedication to eliminating
> >cancer.  He opposes the use of animals in conducting such research.  He
> >has supported restrictions on the use of asbestos, pesticides, and
> >radiation, and favors government determined occupational health and
> >safety standards, as well as the promotion of such foods as whole-grain
> >bread and soybeans.  He is an advocate of government gun-control
> >measures.  An ardent opponent of tobacco, he has supported increased
> >restrictions on both the use of and advertising for tobacco products.
> >Such advertising restrictions include: [1] not allowing tobacco use to
> >be portrayed as harmless or a sign of masculinity; [2] not allowing such
> >advertising to be directed to women; [3] not drawing attention to the
> >low nicotine content of tobacco products; and, [4] limitations as to
> >where such advertisements may be made.  This man is a champion of
> >environmental and conservationist programs, and believes in the
> >importance of sending troops into foreign countries in order to maintain
> >order therein.
> >
> >PLEASE SELECT THE CANDIDATE FOR WHICH YOU WOULD VOTE:
> >
> >CANDIDATE 'A' _____
> >
> >CANDIDATE 'B' _____
> >
> >The combined vote total for these two years (4 classes) is as follows:
> >Candidate "A" 47  votes  25%
> >Candidate "B" 141 votes 75%
> >
> >After collecting all the ballots, the professor inform the students that
> >Candidate 'A' is a composite of the "founding fathers" (e.g., Sam Adams,
> >John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Patrick Henry, etc.,
> >etc.) while Candidate 'B' is Adolph Hitler (see Robert Proctor's book,
> >THE NAZI WAR ON CANCER).
> >
> >An interesting follow-up occurred in one of these classes last year.  In
> >the "commerce clause" segment of constitutional law, the students were
> >discussing the Schechter case - in which the Supreme Court struck down
> >the New Deal's National Industrial Recovery Act.  After describing this
> >Act in some detail, the professor went on to inform his students just
> >how popular state collectivism was throughout the world: Stalin, Hitler,
> >Mussolini, and Franco and Roosevelt being the better known examples; and
> >of how Hitler and Mussolini had been revered by many renowned people
> >throughout the world, including Gandhi, Churchill, etc., etc.  At this
> >point, one student interrupted: "I don't see how you can say that.  How
> >could a man like Adolph Hitler have been popular with so many people?"
> >The professor leaned over the podium and responded: "you tell me...just
> >two weeks ago, 78% of you in this class voted for him."  In about twenty
> >seconds, the room became unbelievably silent.
>
> Have a great day

***{An excellent point, well made. Americans are fascist to the bone, even
though they don't like that word. Given that state of affairs, it is hardly
surprising that they would vote for Adolph Hitler, provided only that he
ran under a different name. (He might, for example, call himself "Al Gore"
or "George Bush." :-) --MJ}***


________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:55:21 EST
Subject: Statement tv last night about universe!
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        newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I was watching The Discovery Channel last night. The program was about super 
novas. During the program the group of researchers stated that they now 
believe that  two-thirds of the universe is made of a strange exotic vacuum 
energy!
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

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Subject: Re: Fw: [Off Topic] WHICH CANDIDATE?
References: <v04011701b64705fdffa9 [207.8.127.203]>
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This is very amusing, but it has no meaning.  The description of the two
candidates was purposely distorted to make a trivial point.  If the situation
existing during the early history when candidate A was living was described,
the characteristics would have not looked so bad.  On the other hand, if the
fact that candidate B intended to kill the Jews was mentioned, a fact that was
known about Hitler, the second candidate would not have looked so good.  Such
games are a waste of time, something the people making comments should have
realized.  The problem with voting is that people selectively chose what they
want to believe about the candidate even when the flaws are obvious to an
objective observer.  Hitler, for example, said clearly what he intend to do
about the Jews, but the German people chose to ignore this in favor of the
promise of a better life by invading their neighbors.  Given the conditions in
Germany at the time, this looked like a good trade, one that many people even
today would make under the same circumstances.  We as intelligent observes,
should try to be objective rather than using such trivial tests to reach
conclusions about human behavior.

Ed Storms

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> > >Try this at your next gathering, be it of friends, family, club or
> > >patriot group.
> > >
> > >In each of the past two years, and on the first day of class, Law
> > >Professor Butler Shaffer, Southwestern University School of Law,
> > >presented his students with the following voting exercise.  Bear in mind
> > >that these students knew nothing about the Professor nor had he said
> > >anything to them prior to opening up the class with this exercise.
> > >
> > >Cast your vote to understand why it is vital to teach factual not
> > >revisionist history in our private and public institutions of
> > >education.  Your comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >VOTING EXERCISE
> > >
> > >"It is time to elect the leader of a great nation, and you have been
> > >presented with the following candidates:
> > >
> > >CANDIDATE 'A'
> > >
> > >A well-known critic of government, this man has been involved in tax
> > >protest movements, and has openly advocated secession, armed rebellion
> > >against the existing national government, and even the overthrow of that
> > >government.  He is a known member of a militia group that was involved
> > >in a shootout with law enforcement authorities.  He opposes gun control
> > >efforts of the present national government, as well as restrictions on
> > >open immigration into this country.  He is a businessman who as earned
> > >his fortune from such businesses as alcohol, tobacco, retailing, and
> > >smuggling."
> > >
> > >CANDIDATE 'B'
> > >
> > >A decorated army war veteran, this man is an avowed nonsmoker and
> > >dedicated public health advocate.  His public health interests include
> > >the fostering of medical research and his dedication to eliminating
> > >cancer.  He opposes the use of animals in conducting such research.  He
> > >has supported restrictions on the use of asbestos, pesticides, and
> > >radiation, and favors government determined occupational health and
> > >safety standards, as well as the promotion of such foods as whole-grain
> > >bread and soybeans.  He is an advocate of government gun-control
> > >measures.  An ardent opponent of tobacco, he has supported increased
> > >restrictions on both the use of and advertising for tobacco products.
> > >Such advertising restrictions include: [1] not allowing tobacco use to
> > >be portrayed as harmless or a sign of masculinity; [2] not allowing such
> > >advertising to be directed to women; [3] not drawing attention to the
> > >low nicotine content of tobacco products; and, [4] limitations as to
> > >where such advertisements may be made.  This man is a champion of
> > >environmental and conservationist programs, and believes in the
> > >importance of sending troops into foreign countries in order to maintain
> > >order therein.
> > >
> > >PLEASE SELECT THE CANDIDATE FOR WHICH YOU WOULD VOTE:
> > >
> > >CANDIDATE 'A' _____
> > >
> > >CANDIDATE 'B' _____
> > >
> > >The combined vote total for these two years (4 classes) is as follows:
> > >Candidate "A" 47  votes  25%
> > >Candidate "B" 141 votes 75%
> > >
> > >After collecting all the ballots, the professor inform the students that
> > >Candidate 'A' is a composite of the "founding fathers" (e.g., Sam Adams,
> > >John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Patrick Henry, etc.,
> > >etc.) while Candidate 'B' is Adolph Hitler (see Robert Proctor's book,
> > >THE NAZI WAR ON CANCER).
> > >
> > >An interesting follow-up occurred in one of these classes last year.  In
> > >the "commerce clause" segment of constitutional law, the students were
> > >discussing the Schechter case - in which the Supreme Court struck down
> > >the New Deal's National Industrial Recovery Act.  After describing this
> > >Act in some detail, the professor went on to inform his students just
> > >how popular state collectivism was throughout the world: Stalin, Hitler,
> > >Mussolini, and Franco and Roosevelt being the better known examples; and
> > >of how Hitler and Mussolini had been revered by many renowned people
> > >throughout the world, including Gandhi, Churchill, etc., etc.  At this
> > >point, one student interrupted: "I don't see how you can say that.  How
> > >could a man like Adolph Hitler have been popular with so many people?"
> > >The professor leaned over the podium and responded: "you tell me...just
> > >two weeks ago, 78% of you in this class voted for him."  In about twenty
> > >seconds, the room became unbelievably silent.
> >
> > Have a great day
>
> ***{An excellent point, well made. Americans are fascist to the bone, even
> though they don't like that word. Given that state of affairs, it is hardly
> surprising that they would vote for Adolph Hitler, provided only that he
> ran under a different name. (He might, for example, call himself "Al Gore"
> or "George Bush." :-) --MJ}***
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 26 15:35:25 2000
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Subject: new paper
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:45:27 -0500
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Hi all,
I am writing a new paper. I put the first three pages up today
http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htm
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/


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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am writing a new paper. I put the =
first three=20
pages up today</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htm">http://www.geocit=
ies.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MJ</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>-----------------------------------------------------<BR>Click =
here for=20
Free Video!!<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.gohip.com/free_video/">http://www.gohip.com/free_video=
/</A><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 26 19:25:56 2000
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Micheal,
I admire your effort to explore electrolysis.
However, you have made a basic mistake in your
approach. While electrons (current) are not used
up, energy is used in the same manner as when
electrons pass through a resistor.   The voltage
drop times the current gives the power being
converted to heat.  Within an electrolytic cell,
the voltage drop across the liquid is converted to
heat and the voltage drop at the electrodes is
converted to chemical energy.  This process has
been measured very carefully and there are no
surprises. You will fail to create hydrogen using
less energy than expected, unless of course you
are able to initiate another process.  I look
forward to learning what you think this other
process might be.

Regards,
Ed Storms

Michael Johnston wrote:

> Hi all,I am writing a new paper. I put the first
> three pages up
> todayhttp://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htmMJ-----------------------------------------------------
>
> Click here for Free Video!!
> http://www.gohip.com/free_video/

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<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Micheal,
<br>I admire your effort to explore electrolysis.&nbsp; However, you have
made a basic mistake in your approach. While electrons (current) are not
used up, energy is used in the same manner as when electrons pass through
a resistor.&nbsp;&nbsp; The voltage drop times the current gives the power
being converted to heat.&nbsp; Within an electrolytic cell, the voltage
drop across the liquid is converted to heat and the voltage drop at the
electrodes is converted to chemical energy.&nbsp; This process has been
measured very carefully and there are no surprises. You will fail to create
hydrogen using less energy than expected, unless of course you are able
to initiate another process.&nbsp; I look forward to learning what you
think this other process might be.
<p>Regards,
<br>Ed Storms
<p>Michael Johnston wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Hi
all,I am writing a new paper. I put the first three pages up today<a href="http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htm">http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-1.htm</a>MJ-----------------------------------------------------</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Click here for Free Video!!</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><a href="http://www.gohip.com/free_video/">http://www.gohip.com/free_video/</a></font></font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Magnegas protest
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>
>George F. Weiss  IBR wrote;
>*******************************
>
>Mister Murray !
>
>We have ethical problems with your end statement
>
>on Santilli's new chemical
>special of magnecules which consists of stable clusters of atoms (sic)
>and molecules in macroscopic percentages which all result to be UNKNOWN
>under the MS scan after checking with all known molecules, and NONE of
>them has any IR signature, thus confirming that the bond is not valence.


What is Mr. Weiss saying, that these cluster of atoms are held 
together by something other than chemical bonds?

>
>Thre new species has been called by Prof. Santilli "magnecules" because
>they are created under the extremely intense magnetic fields of electric
>
>
>
>first MANUALLY OPERATED hadronic reactors, and that SUM agendas hs now
>completely automatic reactors in PRODUCTION FOR SALE with a much bigger
>overunity and the electric energy per cf down to 85 W = 290 BT/cf.


What is a hadronic reactor?

>
>I still insist that you send our a retraction of your trash, in which
>absence I shall exercise pressure on EarthFirst Technologies (the public
>
>parent company) to sue you, because it is time to stop all this trashy
>behavior issues by nonscientists which is so damaging our Country and
>our need for new advances.


This is some pretty tough talk. visted a website was talking about 
this technology. The promoters are talking about this technology 
being over unity, which it definately is not. When you add in the 
energy in the electricity in the molecules being oxidized, This 
technology obeys the law of energy conservation, which they freely 
admit. I object to their use of the word overunity.

  Futhermore, they talked about the oxygen balance in the resulting 
gas. This is only the case if you are powering the arc from  a 
nuclear power plant.

Dan Winter wanted to get Otto Schmitt to endorse his theories, which 
he refused to do because Dan took words and gave them new meanings 
which infuriated Otto. This misuse of overunity makes me understand 
how Otto felt.

>
>George F. Weiss  Editorial Manager
>
>_________________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 07:09:52 2000
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As many readers here know, Prof. John O'M Bockris has been suffering from 
cancer. Bockris is one of the world's preeminent electrochemists and one of 
the most important cold fusion scientists. He confirmed excess heat in 
1989, and his group was one of the first to make definitive measurements of 
tritium. Later they examined used palladium cathodes and found evidence of 
transmutations at and below the surface. Tadahiko Mizuno left the 
conference in Washington early and visited Bockris. He sent me a two-part 
message describing his prognosis and his views about recent developments in 
cold fusion. He asked me to publish the message here and elsewhere. The 
message is in English, but I would like to improve the grammar a little. 
Anyway, here is the first part. I will post the second part tomorrow Mizuno 
has a look at my edited version.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have good news from Dr. John O'M Bockris. He has made a remarkable 
recovery from the disease after a successful operation! He was very 
grateful to his many old friends for the greeting card we sent from the 
recent meeting in Sapporo.  He has no overt cancer now after operations and 
radiation treatment. I will hope that nothing further develops. As far as 
his energy and initiative were concerned, let us say they are about 75% of 
normal.

- Tadahiko Mizuno
Division of Quantum Energy Engineering,
Research group of Nuclear System Engineering,
Laboratory of Nuclear Material System,
Faculty of Engineering, Hokkaido University,
Kita-ku, North 13, West-8, Sapporo 060-8628 JAPAN
Tel:81-11-706-6689, Fax:81-11-706-7835
E-mail:mizuno qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: [Off Topic] WHICH CANDIDATE?
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***{Ed, you have your "reply-to" header set to your private e-mail address,
despite the fact that your post went to vortex. Result: the first reply I
sent, incorrectly, went to you. Thus I am sending the response again.
Please leave the "reply-to" header blank when you make a post to vortex.
Thanks.

P.S. Going back, I see that another of my recent replies to you, intended
for vortex, went to you via private e-mail. Therefore I am reposting it to
vortex as well.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>This is very amusing, but it has no meaning.  The description of the two
>candidates was purposely distorted to make a trivial point.  If the situation
>existing during the early history when candidate A was living was described,
>the characteristics would have not looked so bad.  On the other hand, if the
>fact that candidate B intended to kill the Jews was mentioned, a fact that was
>known about Hitler, the second candidate would not have looked so good.

***{Hitler was not merely a fascist; he was also a master politician.
Result: he emphasized those aspects of the fascist position that were
politically expedient in Germany at the time. Since Germans in the 1930's
were intensely anti-Semitic, he railed against the Jews. However, if he
were running for office in the U.S. today, he would be aware that such
utterances would be political suicide, and would emphasize aspects of the
fascist programme that would be well received today--such as those listed
for "Candidate B" in the classroom exercise. Result: there is every reason
to suppose that Hitler would be as popular today in the U.S. as he was in
Germany in the 1930's. --MJ}***

Such
>games are a waste of time, something the people making comments should have
>realized.

***{I disagree. To be a competent judge of political candidates, it is
necessary to be able to recognize fascism in *all* its guises, rather than
merely when it appears in the specific form that we have all read about in
the history books. And the point of the classroom "election" that you
describe as a "game" was to make it crystal clear that typical Americans
cannot do that. Truth be told, they *love* fascism, provided that it does
not use that term to describe itself, and does not present itself in the
crude form that they have been taught to reject. --MJ}***

The problem with voting is that people selectively chose what they
>want to believe about the candidate even when the flaws are obvious to an
>objective observer.  Hitler, for example, said clearly what he intend to do
>about the Jews, but the German people chose to ignore this in favor of the
>promise of a better life by invading their neighbors.  Given the conditions in
>Germany at the time, this looked like a good trade, one that many people even
>today would make under the same circumstances.  We as intelligent observes,
>should try to be objective rather than using such trivial tests to reach
>conclusions about human behavior.

***{I repeat: the point of the classroom exercise was to demonstrate that
contemporary Americans have no comprehension of the nature of fascism, and
that, as a consequence, they eagerly embrace it when contemporary
proponents of fascism avoid the labels and the rhetoric used by their
predecessors in the 1930's. In my view, that point is well taken. In the
present-day U.S.  it is virtually impossible to get elected to any post,
from dogcatcher to President, if you are not a believer in the fundamental
premise of fascism--to wit: that government can solve social problems by
violating property rights. --MJ}***

>
>Ed Storms
________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Gore-Bush Yo-yo
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***{This is the second reply, intended for vortex, that was diverted to
private e-mail by Ed's erroneous use of the "reply-to" header. --MJ}***

>To fellow Digustees,
>
>I do not usually like to discuss politics because such discussions seldom
>change
>any minds, as many previous discussions on Vortex have demonstrated.
>However, the
>Bush-Gore battle has raised my disgust to levels that require a comment.
>
>We are presented with two choices each of which suffers from serious
>limitations
>of honesty, character, and stability of personality.  These limitations were
>driven home before the election with each candidate slowing the
>limitations of the
>other one and of themselves by their actions.  No wonder the vote is so close,
>they are both equally bad.  Now, in the final act, they are adding to the bad
>impression by manipulating the system to gain small advantages. Heaven help us
>when either winner is presented with a serious challenge in the real world.
>Clearly, the race to the bottom, which is well along in the entertainment/news
>industry, has reached its limit in politics.  We can hope that the
>government will
>be too hamstrung by bickering after one loser wins to do any serious
>damage to the
>rest of us.
>
>Ed Storms

***{I completely agree, though I must say that the damage already done by
fascist buffoons is likely sufficient to do us all in. The stock market
bubble has grown so huge that mind boggling injections of counterfeit money
are now necessary to prevent selloffs from turning into crashes; and,
worse, with each crash that is successfully averted, the mass
delusion--that we are in a "new economy" where crashes are impossible--is
strengthened. Result: after each rescue operation, the public pours still
greater quantities of money into the market, driving it to levels that are
even more insane than they were before. Result: when the next selloff
threatens to turn into a crash, even more gigantic quantities of
counterfeit money must be injected into the system to prevent that from
happening. It is obvious that this process can have only one end: utter
economic collapse and ruin, not merely for America, but for the entire
civilized world. Bottom line: the boom and bust cycle is not obsolete, and
cannot be obsolete, so long as fascism continues to exist. Instead, mankind
faces a simple choice: either give up the fascist premise that government
can solve problems by violating property rights, or else give up
civilization itself. --MJ}***



________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 12:30:29 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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Rich Murray wrote:

>>Please give us information on the underwater electric arc experiment
>>mentioned by the physicists of Howard Univerasity.

That had nothing to do with claims that Magnagas and others make, which is 
that when you burn the effluent gas from an underwater carbon arc it 
produces more energy than the arc consumes. The work at Howard was a 
replication of the iron transmutation claims. I know practically nothing 
about it, except I asked them how they determined the material was iron, 
they said they used a high resolution mass spec. Others who have done this 
experiment have used a magnet to move the black particles, but this may not 
be a valid test, because carbon particles in an unusual configuration can 
be slightly magnetic, according to experts Gene Mallove talked to.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 13:56:25 2000
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:33:29 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Miles claims 100% reproducible cold fusion
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Melvin Miles gives such understated lectures that I sometimes overlook the 
importance of his statements. Reviewing his ANS presentation, it is clear 
that he and M. A. Imam of the NRL in Washington have achieved 100 percent 
reproducible cold fusion with palladium boron alloy. Iman, a metallurgist, 
knows in detail how he produced the cathodes. He did extensive studies of 
the materials to measure composition, grain size and other characteristics. 
Miles thinks the boron has the same effect as the cover gas used in 
fabricating the Johnson Matthey cathodes. Both ensure there is no oxygen in 
the finished product. The boron oxides are easily separated from the molten 
metal. Eight out of nine of these cathodes produced excess heat, and the 
ninth one failed for reasons that are now clear and could be prevented. The 
people at Johnson Matthey express no interest in fabricating more of their 
best cathode material -- unless we give them a large stack of money -- and 
they're not willing to share the details of their recipe, but Imam says 
that he knows how he made the material, and he would be happy to describe 
the process in detail. Miles, Imam and Fleischman are co-authors of the 
upcoming paper describing Miles' NHE experiments.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 13:57:49 2000
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:49:32 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Horace Heffner wrote:

 >Kenny described a nice little experiment designed for undergraduates, with
> >an innovative cell design. They detect increased radiation with a GM
> >counter when palladium is electrolyzed in heavy water. The experiment takes
> >only two hours and it always works. The results are only one or two Sigma
> >at this stage, but perhaps it can be improved and this may impress many
> >people. The cell design eliminates the water and glass barrier, which may
> >be the biggest problem people have encountered trying to detect weak
> >radiation from cold fusion cells.
>[snip]
>
>
>On the surface, this sounds like a very significant breakthrough.  If a one
>or two sigma result can be achieved in two hours then an arbitrary degree
>of precision on the mean value of the count rate increase can be obtained
>simply by running the experiment longer - provided there are no (short
>term) limitations to run time, like electrode decomposition.

Well . . . if you used a new cathode wouldn't the continued results still 
be statistically significant? Why would that be any different from 
replenishing  heavy water? Mizuno used 1000 (!) tungsten cathodes to derive 
the data in his recent JJAP paper. Most of the graphs show combined results 
from many different cathodes.

Anyway, this experiment is being replicated at the University of Illinois 
even as we speak, and they're using better instruments. During the 
conference, Kenny showed an e-mail he just received that day from the grad 
students at U. Ill., showing some preliminary (not "pulmonary" as NatSpeak 
would have it) results that looked similar to the ones his students 
observed. This is the kind of experiment one should take down a mine shaft, 
to reduce background noise. I hesitate to mention that, because I'm afraid 
Steve Jones might try it, and botch it. He is the one with the biggest, 
darkest, deepest . . . shaft.

I always glad to hear about people like Kenny who introduce cold fusion to 
young people.

Here is a somewhat more complete description of the experiment which I am 
writing -- or dictating -- at the moment:

The purpose of the experiment is to measure increased beta rays from 
palladium cathodes, with a Geiger counter. A specially designed L-shaped 
cell holds about a milliliter of electrolyte. A platinum anode is inserted 
at the top (the vertical portion), and a specially made palladium cathode 
at the bottom (the horizontal part of the cell). The palladium cathode acts 
as a stopper. It keeps the electrolyte from leaking out, and part of the 
palladium protrudes from the bottom of the cell. A small, 1 mil thick 
copper plate is pushed up against the bottom of the palladium cathode by a 
spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into 
the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from 
tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it 
soon loads with deuterium, and after about 15 minutes it apparently begins 
reacting. A Geiger counter is placed next to the copper, and another one is 
placed some distance away in the room to measure background.


I'll run this by Kenny and see if I can get some numbers and additional 
comments from him, if I can find his e-mail address. I now have all the ANS 
abstracts, thanks to Frank Znidarsic. It turns out there weren't many in 
the first place, and Kenny did not submit one, which is why I could not 
find his.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 14:52:06 2000
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Subject: Cain ACS abstract
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Here is the abstract of a paper which was not presented at the ANS. I would 
have liked to hear it. Bruce Cain was not able to attend for personal 
reasons. When Cain first presented these results people said he was 
probably seeing a chemical reaction. The new blank experiments seem to 
rebut that argument. The role of peroxide is ironic, because in the early 
days of cold fusion many people claimed that the excess heat came from 
peroxide.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Carbonate Precipitates During Heat Evolution in FP-Type Cells, Bruce L. 
Cain (Mississippi State Univ)

In previous work, [1] we reported measurement of large amounts of heat 
generated during experiments using an FP-type open cell [2, 3] with 
concentrated LiOH/D20 electrolytes and thin-film Pd cathodes. During the 
heat evolution in several runs, which produced >100W for more than 20 h, we 
consistently observed the concomitant evolution of gases from the 
electrolyte and the precipitation of large amounts of lithium carbonate. 
The carbonate production was clearly visible during production of heat, 
creating an opaque electrolyte even during long periods with no 
electrolysis current.

These results indicated an unusual chemical reaction, [4] either catalyzed 
by the heating process or possibly creating the heat itself. Post 
experiment analysis of the electrolyte revealed that only 5% of the Li in 
solution had converted to the carbonate precipitate, and XPS analysis of 
the precipitate showed that it was essentially lithium carbonate (Li2CO3). 
The total energy released during the earlier experiments was ~7 MJ, while 
the heat of formation for the lithium carbonate in the cell was only 0.8 
MJ. Hence, only ~10% of the heat signatures from these experiments be 
attributed to the precipitate formation, the balance of M heat presumably 
arising from nonchemical sources in the cells. [5,6]

The earlier experiments that produced heat also suffered from problems of 
reproducibility, with only 5 of 38 runs producing any heat at all. The 
unsuccessful runs also did not produce precipitates, and the only gas 
produced in these cells was due to the normal electrolysis of D20 to 
produce oxygen and deuterium at  electrodes. Recent work has focused on 
recreating the chemical precipitation reaction, in efforts to understand 
and/or trigger the heat production process. Using bench tests with 200-ml 
cells  both LiOH/D20 and LiOH/H20 electrolytes, we have found that hydrogen 
peroxide (H202) (10 ml added to the 200-ml cells) and simple 
heating/cooling cycles (from 25 to 60 C) can reliably reproduce the 
carbonate precipitate. We found, however, that this precipitation effect 
only occurs in the heavy water-based electrolytes, whereas the light 
water-based electrolytes remain transparent.

With these findings, new experiments were conducted using larger (1 
l  LiOH/D20) cells with Pt anodes and Pd film cathodes immersed but left 
open-circuited. After the addition of H202, and subsequent heating and 
cooling, these cells visually reproduced the precipitation and gas 
evolution of the earlier heat-producing runs. However, these new runs only 
produced a few watts of power for several minutes, consistent with the 
normal exothermic chemical reaction of the peroxide with the electrolyte 
and the heat of formation of the carbonate.

These results demonstrate that the unusual chemical reactions, which 
created the Li2CO3 precipitate when the cells were producing heat, cannot 
account for the large amount of heat generated. What is suggested is that 
the larger heat-producing mechanism, presumably from a surface or bulk D-D 
fusion process, also generated a "peroxide-like" intermediate in our cells, 
such as D202 or Li202, which then sustained the chemical precipitation 
reaction. This precipitation reaction, however, cannot possibly generate 
the 7 MJ observed, lending support to the notion that the main energy 
source was of nonchemical origin.

1. B. L. CAIN, A. B. CHENEY, I. M. RIGSBEE, R. W. CAIN, L. S. McMILLIAN, 
"Thermal Power Produced Using Thin-Film Palladium Cathodes in a 
Concentrated Lithium Salt Electrolyte," Proc. 7th mt. Conf. Cold Fusion, 
Vancouver, April 20---24, 1998.

2. M. FLEISCHMANN, S. PONS, M. HAWKINS, "Electrochemically Induced Nuclear 
Fusion of Deuterium," I. Electroanal. Chem., 261, 301 (1989).

3. M. FLEISCHMANN, S. PONS, M. W. ANDERSON, L. J. LI, M. HAWKINS, 
"Calorimetry of the Palladium-DeuteriumHeavy Water System," I. Electroanal. 
Chem., 287,293(1990).

4. R. L. MILLS, "Novel Inorganic Hydride," mt. J. Hydrogen Energy, 25, 669 
(2000).

5. M. H. MILES, "Calorimetric Studies of Pd/D20 +LiOD Electrolysis Cells," 
I. Electrowial. Chem., 482, 56 (2000).

6. S. SZPAK, P. A. MOSIER-BOSS, M. MILES, "Calorimetry of the Pd+D 
Codeposition," Fusion Technol., 36,234(1999).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 15:33:57 2000
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To: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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	Dear Vos.,

	Many common carbon rods used as "gouges" and sold by welding
companies have iron in them.  Iron is also added to carbon rods to cause
them to give off a brighter arc light due to the added optical emission
lines of iron.  Over the years, for use in Arc Lighting, carbons have had
additives of one or more of;  Strontium, Iron, Calcium, {yow} Thallium !!
and other elements.
	Iron is common.  Copper is also found at times.  Copper is also
found in carbon used as brushes for motors.



On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Rich Murray wrote:
> 
> >>Please give us information on the underwater electric arc experiment
> >>mentioned by the physicists of Howard Univerasity.
> 
> That had nothing to do with claims that Magnagas and others make, which is 
> that when you burn the effluent gas from an underwater carbon arc it 
> produces more energy than the arc consumes. The work at Howard was a 
> replication of the iron transmutation claims. I know practically nothing 
> about it, except I asked them how they determined the material was iron, 
> they said they used a high resolution mass spec. Others who have done this 
> experiment have used a magnet to move the black particles, but this may not 
> be a valid test, because carbon particles in an unusual configuration can 
> be slightly magnetic, according to experts Gene Mallove talked to.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 15:34:04 2000
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If this turns out, could be a way to quickly test cathode 
materials...??.....steve opelc

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
>  >Kenny described a nice little experiment designed for undergraduates, with
> > >an innovative cell design. They detect increased radiation with a GM
> > >counter when palladium is electrolyzed in heavy water. The experiment takes
> > >only two hours and it always works. The results are only one or two Sigma
> > >at this stage, but perhaps it can be improved and this may impress many
> > >people. The cell design eliminates the water and glass barrier, which may
> > >be the biggest problem people have encountered trying to detect weak
> > >radiation from cold fusion cells.
> >[snip]
> >
> >
> >On the surface, this sounds like a very significant breakthrough.  If a one
> >or two sigma result can be achieved in two hours then an arbitrary degree
> >of precision on the mean value of the count rate increase can be obtained
> >simply by running the experiment longer - provided there are no (short
> >term) limitations to run time, like electrode decomposition.
> 
> Well . . . if you used a new cathode wouldn't the continued results still
> be statistically significant? Why would that be any different from
> replenishing  heavy water? Mizuno used 1000 (!) tungsten cathodes to derive
> the data in his recent JJAP paper. Most of the graphs show combined results
> from many different cathodes.
> 
> Anyway, this experiment is being replicated at the University of Illinois
> even as we speak, and they're using better instruments. During the
> conference, Kenny showed an e-mail he just received that day from the grad
> students at U. Ill., showing some preliminary (not "pulmonary" as NatSpeak
> would have it) results that looked similar to the ones his students
> observed. This is the kind of experiment one should take down a mine shaft,
> to reduce background noise. I hesitate to mention that, because I'm afraid
> Steve Jones might try it, and botch it. He is the one with the biggest,
> darkest, deepest . . . shaft.
> 
> I always glad to hear about people like Kenny who introduce cold fusion to
> young people.
> 
> Here is a somewhat more complete description of the experiment which I am
> writing -- or dictating -- at the moment:
> 
> The purpose of the experiment is to measure increased beta rays from
> palladium cathodes, with a Geiger counter. A specially designed L-shaped
> cell holds about a milliliter of electrolyte. A platinum anode is inserted
> at the top (the vertical portion), and a specially made palladium cathode
> at the bottom (the horizontal part of the cell). The palladium cathode acts
> as a stopper. It keeps the electrolyte from leaking out, and part of the
> palladium protrudes from the bottom of the cell. A small, 1 mil thick
> copper plate is pushed up against the bottom of the palladium cathode by a
> spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into
> the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from
> tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it
> soon loads with deuterium, and after about 15 minutes it apparently begins
> reacting. A Geiger counter is placed next to the copper, and another one is
> placed some distance away in the room to measure background.
> 
> I'll run this by Kenny and see if I can get some numbers and additional
> comments from him, if I can find his e-mail address. I now have all the ANS
> abstracts, thanks to Frank Znidarsic. It turns out there weren't many in
> the first place, and Kenny did not submit one, which is why I could not
> find his.
> 
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 15:51:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:56:34 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Question....please "... bT NATURE..."
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:56:37 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Michael Johnston <enki csrlink.net>
cc: "Michael S. Johnston" <H2OPower listbot.com>,
        energy21 <energy21 listbot.com>, vortex-1@eskimo.com,
        freeenrg-1 eskimo.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com,
        jlnlabs <jlnlabs egroups.com>

Subject: What is ".... bT NATURE   ..."??Re: [jlnlabs] New Paper


	Dear Folks

	M Johnson writes "....how electrolysis is bT NATURE...."


	What is bT NATURE?   What does bT NATURE mean?   I  have not read
or heard of this expression.

			Please.

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Michael Johnston wrote:

> I have written a new paper showing how electrolysis is bT NATURE a form of OU
>

 MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 16:26:43 2000
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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The rods used are normally spectroscopic carbon which is made very pure because
it is used during spectroscopic analysis of materials.  Therefore, the rods are
not the source of iron.  The idea that carbon in some strange form can be
magnetic is pure speculation.  The density of the "iron" precipitates would
eliminate this possibility.  I suggest you try the experiment and analyze for
iron, which is very easy and cheap to do by chemical means.

Ed Storms

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vos.,
>
>         Many common carbon rods used as "gouges" and sold by welding
> companies have iron in them.  Iron is also added to carbon rods to cause
> them to give off a brighter arc light due to the added optical emission
> lines of iron.  Over the years, for use in Arc Lighting, carbons have had
> additives of one or more of;  Strontium, Iron, Calcium, {yow} Thallium !!
> and other elements.
>         Iron is common.  Copper is also found at times.  Copper is also
> found in carbon used as brushes for motors.
>
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > Rich Murray wrote:
> >
> > >>Please give us information on the underwater electric arc experiment
> > >>mentioned by the physicists of Howard Univerasity.
> >
> > That had nothing to do with claims that Magnagas and others make, which is
> > that when you burn the effluent gas from an underwater carbon arc it
> > produces more energy than the arc consumes. The work at Howard was a
> > replication of the iron transmutation claims. I know practically nothing
> > about it, except I asked them how they determined the material was iron,
> > they said they used a high resolution mass spec. Others who have done this
> > experiment have used a magnet to move the black particles, but this may not
> > be a valid test, because carbon particles in an unusual configuration can
> > be slightly magnetic, according to experts Gene Mallove talked to.
> >
> > - Jed
> >

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Subject: will do...Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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	Dear Ed,

	I will do the experiment.  I simply wanted to point out to others
there is a possiblity of theis.  I was plagued with Fe from Carbon rods
until I found this out.

				J

On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Edmund Storms wrote:

> The rods used are normally spectroscopic carbon which is made very pure because
> it is used during spectroscopic analysis of materials.  Therefore, the rods are
> not the source of iron.  The idea that carbon in some strange form can be
> magnetic is pure speculation.  The density of the "iron" precipitates would
> eliminate this possibility.  I suggest you try the experiment and analyze for
> iron, which is very easy and cheap to do by chemical means.
> 
> Ed Storms
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         Dear Vos.,
> >
> >         Many common carbon rods used as "gouges" and sold by welding
> > companies have iron in them.  Iron is also added to carbon rods to cause
> > them to give off a brighter arc light due to the added optical emission
> > lines of iron.  Over the years, for use in Arc Lighting, carbons have had
> > additives of one or more of;  Strontium, Iron, Calcium, {yow} Thallium !!
> > and other elements.
> >         Iron is common.  Copper is also found at times.  Copper is also
> > found in carbon used as brushes for motors.
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > > Rich Murray wrote:
> > >
> > > >>Please give us information on the underwater electric arc experiment
> > > >>mentioned by the physicists of Howard Univerasity.
> > >
> > > That had nothing to do with claims that Magnagas and others make, which is
> > > that when you burn the effluent gas from an underwater carbon arc it
> > > produces more energy than the arc consumes. The work at Howard was a
> > > replication of the iron transmutation claims. I know practically nothing
> > > about it, except I asked them how they determined the material was iron,
> > > they said they used a high resolution mass spec. Others who have done this
> > > experiment have used a magnet to move the black particles, but this may not
> > > be a valid test, because carbon particles in an unusual configuration can
> > > be slightly magnetic, according to experts Gene Mallove talked to.
> > >
> > > - Jed
> > >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 27 16:54:47 2000
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>Butch,
Someone is sending files attached to your posts with the virus Navidad.exe
attached.
Thought you would want to know.<
To all, 
I will NOT be sending ANY posts with attachments to anyone. I will send posts 
that ask to go to my web page for updates. Someone must see my groups 
research as a threat and using the virus as a way to slow communication 
between me and the lists. I take it as a compliment. Sorry for any problem 
this may have caused. DO NOT OPEN ANY POSTS WITH ATTACHMENTS THAT LOOK TO BE 
FROM ME.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:29:41 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:49:32 -0500:
[snip]
>Here is a somewhat more complete description of the experiment which I am 
>writing -- or dictating -- at the moment:
>
>The purpose of the experiment is to measure increased beta rays from 
>palladium cathodes, with a Geiger counter. A specially designed L-shaped 
>cell holds about a milliliter of electrolyte. A platinum anode is inserted 
>at the top (the vertical portion), and a specially made palladium cathode 
>at the bottom (the horizontal part of the cell). The palladium cathode acts 
>as a stopper. It keeps the electrolyte from leaking out, and part of the 
>palladium protrudes from the bottom of the cell. A small, 1 mil thick 
>copper plate is pushed up against the bottom of the palladium cathode by a 
>spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into 
>the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from 
>tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it 

Why should a 1 mil copper plate act as an appreciable filter for gamma rays,
at least any more appreciable that the Pd stopper itself?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Cain ACS abstract
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:46:57 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:38:35 -0500:
[snip]
>Carbonate Precipitates During Heat Evolution in FP-Type Cells, Bruce L. 
>Cain (Mississippi State Univ)
>
>In previous work, [1] we reported measurement of large amounts of heat 
>generated during experiments using an FP-type open cell [2, 3] with 
>concentrated LiOH/D20 electrolytes and thin-film Pd cathodes. During the 
>heat evolution in several runs, which produced >100W for more than 20 h, we 
>consistently observed the concomitant evolution of gases from the 
>electrolyte and the precipitation of large amounts of lithium carbonate. 
>The carbonate production was clearly visible during production of heat, 
>creating an opaque electrolyte even during long periods with no 
>electrolysis current.
>
>These results indicated an unusual chemical reaction, [4] either catalyzed 
>by the heating process or possibly creating the heat itself. Post 
>experiment analysis of the electrolyte revealed that only 5% of the Li in 
>solution had converted to the carbonate precipitate, and XPS analysis of 
>the precipitate showed that it was essentially lithium carbonate (Li2CO3). 
>The total energy released during the earlier experiments was ~7 MJ, while 
>the heat of formation for the lithium carbonate in the cell was only 0.8 
>MJ. Hence, only ~10% of the heat signatures from these experiments be 
>attributed to the precipitate formation, the balance of M heat presumably 
>arising from nonchemical sources in the cells. [5,6]


I wonder if they also took into account the heat of formation of water, as
D2CO3 combined with LiOD (The CO2 coming from the air)?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Question....please "... bT NATURE..."
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:17:32 -0600
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I think he means BY NATURE meaning that the process is naturally OU.
Merlyn

>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>

>Subject: What is ".... bT NATURE   ..."??Re: [jlnlabs] New Paper
>
>
>	Dear Folks
>
>	M Johnson writes "....how electrolysis is bT NATURE...."
>
>
>	What is bT NATURE?   What does bT NATURE mean?   I  have not read
>or heard of this expression.
>
>			Please.
>
>On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Michael Johnston wrote:
>
> > I have written a new paper showing how electrolysis is bT NATURE a form 
>of OU
> >
>
>  MJ
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

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Edmund Storms wrote:

not the source of iron.  The idea that carbon in some strange form can be
>magnetic is pure speculation.

I don't think it is speculation.  Gene heard this from some people he says 
are experts. Maybe he can address this issue.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into
> >the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from
> >tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it
>
>Why should a 1 mil copper plate act as an appreciable filter for gamma rays,
>at least any more appreciable that the Pd stopper itself?

I think I had that wrong. They were saying that copper stops weaker rays 
that may originate from tritium, although I'm not sure how tritium would 
get to the bottom of the cathode. I guess it loads like deuterium or 
hydrogen. Any radiation from the palladium is assumed to originate at the 
bottom surface, so the Pd does not stop it; it originates it. Kenney 
assumes that, I think.

Note that this is the same technique used by Iwamura, who places detectors 
at the bottom surface of his membrane cathode. ("Membrane" is my word for 
it, by the way, not Iwamura's.)

This cell works because the palladium is right next to the detector. There 
is no water barrier between the palladium and the detector, as there is in 
most other cells. In the past, people have tried to detect x-rays with very 
thin cells, with a narrow water barrier.


sno wrote:

>If this turns out, could be a way to quickly test cathode
>materials...??.....steve opelc

That is an interesting comment. I think these cathodes are smaller than the 
ones generally used in other experiments, and they are rods, not foils, so 
they could not be tested and then taken to another experiment. But this 
might be a quick way to test a variety of cathode alloys made under 
different conditions.

Kenny found that several cathodes do not work, and some worked at first but 
gradually petered out. He uses the dud ones for blanks. Sometimes, to 
measure background, he sets up a detector next to a cell with a dud cathode 
and compares the results to a cell with a good cathode. This proves that 
tritium is not causing the signal, because the heavy water in the dud cell 
comes from the same source and it will have the same amount of tritium in it.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Cain ACS abstract
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I wonder if they also took into account the heat of formation of water, as
>D2CO3 combined with LiOD (The CO2 coming from the air)?

Don't wonder -- ask. And tell us what else he says. See:

http://www.msstate.edu/cgi-bin/dirsearch?id=bl-cain

Dr. Bruce L. Cain
Associate Professor
Mechanical Engineering
Carpenter, Rm 219
Box M E
MS State, MS 39762

Cain me.msstate.edu

(Anyone can be found anywhere these days. We live in a glass house. It is 
an unintended unpredicted side effect of the computer revolution. It does 
not bother me as much as I would have predicted, if someone twenty years 
ago had told me this is how things will be.)

- Jed

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At 12:15 PM 11/28/2000 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> >spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into
>> >the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from
>> >tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it
>>
>>Why should a 1 mil copper plate act as an appreciable filter for gamma rays,
>>at least any more appreciable that the Pd stopper itself?
>
>I think I had that wrong. They were saying that copper stops weaker rays 
>that may originate from tritium.....


Indeed a 1 mil Cu foil would stop the 18 keV betas emitted by 
tritium.  Their max range in air is only 6 mm...and only 0.006 mm in water 
(http://www.orcbs.msu.edu/radiation/radsaf.html)


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 10:39:08 2000
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Subject: Goddard - Dash ANS abstract
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Characterization of Uranium Codeposited with Hydrogen on Nickel Cathodes, 
G. Goddard, J.  Dash (Portland State Univ), S. Franzz (Reed College Reactor)

Previously, it has been reported that nuclear transmutation reactions are 
accelerated when radioactive elements are subjected to low-level electric 
fields during electrolysis of aqueous electrolytes. [1, 2] Our research 
investigated the codeposition of U3O8 and H on Ni cathodes, using an acidic 
electrolyte and a Pt anode. Then, the radiation emitted by the 
electroplated U3O8 was compared with radiation emitted by unelectrolyzed 
U3O8 from the same batch. Radiation measurements were made over a period of 
~2 months with a matched pair of Geiger-Muller (GM) detectors using 10mg of 
each sample. Consecutive 3-min counts were taken for 15 h each day and 
stored in a computer. The results are shown in Fig. I. The electroplated 
U3O8 initially produced ~2900 counts in 3 min (April 17, 2000). This rose 
sporadically in steps to ~3700 counts in 3 min on May 11, 2000, and it 
remained relatively constant at this level until the GM measurements ended 
on June 8, 2000. The unelectrolyzed U3O8 from the same batch emitted 
radiation at a much lower rate, ~1250 counts in 3 min, and this remained 
almost constant over the entire period of measurement.

After the GM measurements, a gamma-ray spectrometer was used to measure 
radiation from the same two, 10-mg electroplated and unelectrolyzed U3O8 
samples. The net integral of the same 36 peaks for the same measurement 
time (25 h) gave 53,000 counts for the electroplated sample and 31,000 
counts for the unelectrolyzed sample, or 1.7 times as many counts for the 
electroplated sample as for the unelectrolyzed sample. Alpha and beta 
measurements are under way for both samples.

The cathodes are characterized before and after electrolysis using a 
scanning electron microscope (SEM) and an energy dispersive spectrometer 
(EDS). The unelectrolyzed U3O8 is also analyzed using the SEM and EDS. 
Figure 2 shows an SEM micrograph of a typical surface structure of uranium 
electroplated on a nickel cathode. The donut-like features appear to be the 
result of microscopic surface eruptions that produced voids surrounded by 
raised circular rims. Figure 3 shows an EDS spectrum from electroplated 
U3O8 on a nickel cathode. In addition to oxygen and uranium, cesium, iron, 
and nickel are present. A peak at 16.36 keV, which overlaps with a uranium 
peak at 16.44 keV, is tentatively labeled as a fermium. Mass spectrometer 
and x-ray diffraction studies are also under way.

1. R. W. BASS, "Low-energy Bulk-process Alchemy," new energy news, 5,2,1 (1997)

2. G. H. MILEY, "Scientific Feasibility Study of Low-energy Nuclear 
Reactions (LENRS) for Nuclear Waste Amelioration," Proposal No. 99-0222 to 
U.S. Department of Energy Nuclear Energy Research Initiative (1999).

[Fig. 1, described above, shows no overlap for the two sets of counts from 
electroplated U308 and unelectrolyzed U3O8. - JR]

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There is a big difference between finding a material to be paramagnetic, as
some some forms of carbon might be, and a ferromagnetic material as found in
these experiments.  The material being produced did not just attract a
magnetic field, it was also attracted strongly by a magnet. This behavior is
not typical of any form of carbon I know about.

Ed


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> not the source of iron.  The idea that carbon in some strange form can be
> >magnetic is pure speculation.
>
> I don't think it is speculation.  Gene heard this from some people he says
> are experts. Maybe he can address this issue.
>
> - Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> > >spring. The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into
> > >the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from
> > >tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte. The cathode is small, it
> >
> >Why should a 1 mil copper plate act as an appreciable filter for gamma rays,
> >at least any more appreciable that the Pd stopper itself?
>
> I think I had that wrong. They were saying that copper stops weaker rays
> that may originate from tritium, although I'm not sure how tritium would
> get to the bottom of the cathode. I guess it loads like deuterium or
> hydrogen. Any radiation from the palladium is assumed to originate at the
> bottom surface, so the Pd does not stop it; it originates it. Kenney
> assumes that, I think.

Beta radiation from tritium is too weak to even get into a Geiger counter even
if the counter were in a bottle of pure T2.  No gamma is emitted(Ed Storms)

>
>
> Note that this is the same technique used by Iwamura, who places detectors
> at the bottom surface of his membrane cathode. ("Membrane" is my word for
> it, by the way, not Iwamura's.)
>
> This cell works because the palladium is right next to the detector. There
> is no water barrier between the palladium and the detector, as there is in
> most other cells. In the past, people have tried to detect x-rays with very
> thin cells, with a narrow water barrier.

X-rays are expected when any nuclear reaction is initiated within the Pd.
However, the region of Pd outside of the cell will not contain a sufficiently
high concentration of D to be active.  If a reaction is occurring, it will be at
the surface within the electrolyte.  This being the case, radiation will have to
pass through the Pd between this surface and the counter.  Therefore, only
fairly energetic X-rays will be detected. Although this radiation will be less
reduced compared to having to pass through an electrolyte and a cell wall, it
will nevertheless be greatly attenuated..  The interesting observation, if true,
is that nuclear reactions producing significant radiation are more easily
initiated than those that produce heat and helium. (Ed Storms)

>
>
> sno wrote:
>
> >If this turns out, could be a way to quickly test cathode
> >materials...??.....steve opelc
>
> That is an interesting comment. I think these cathodes are smaller than the
> ones generally used in other experiments, and they are rods, not foils, so
> they could not be tested and then taken to another experiment. But this
> might be a quick way to test a variety of cathode alloys made under
> different conditions.
>
> Kenny found that several cathodes do not work, and some worked at first but
> gradually petered out. He uses the dud ones for blanks. Sometimes, to
> measure background, he sets up a detector next to a cell with a dud cathode
> and compares the results to a cell with a good cathode. This proves that
> tritium is not causing the signal, because the heavy water in the dud cell
> comes from the same source and it will have the same amount of tritium in it.

Unfortunately, Geiger counters are great for survey work but they are not stable
enough for detection of very low level radiation.  Kenny needs to use a
different detector or make a much bigger signal if he wants to be believed. (Ed
Storms)

>
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 11:08:21 2000
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At 12:31 PM 11/28/2000 -0600, Scott Little wrote:

>Indeed a 1 mil Cu foil would stop the 18 keV betas emitted by 
>tritium.  Their max range in air is only 6 mm...and only 0.006 mm in water

They talked about using thicker Cu foils too, 2 and 3 mils, to filter out 
more and more from the cell. I do not recall the details.

On another subject, I am now -- at this moment -- looking at Frank's tape 
of McKubre's ANS lecture. McKubre did state unequivocally that he now 
thinks this is "fusion: D+D fusion resulting in helium-4." That's the 
boldest statement about the nature of the reaction that I have heard from 
him. I cannot get him to comment on the transmutations that other people 
observe. As far as I know, they prove this CANNOT be "merely" D+D fusion.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 11:11:46 2000
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Subject: LANL tritweb now features plasma discharge
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Readers who have not looked at the work of Claytor and Schwab lately should 
tune into:

http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm

. . . for the latest.

- Jed

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Subject: Standard protest letter
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I doubt it does any good, but when I see some ignorant jackass attack cold 
fusion in a newspaper or magazine, I sometimes take the trouble to send a 
short form letter of protest. Here is the latest version. I try to maintain 
an impersonal tone and list recent impressive research and big names. When 
readers of this forum spot in attack on cold fusion with the e-mail address 
of the author, you might let me know and I will zap off a copy of this form 
letter. The people I have sent it to in the past have never responded, but 
perhaps some of them shut up.

It is disheartening that reporters and journalists receive letters like 
this, listing major national laboratories, international corporations, and 
Web sites they can look up in a few minutes, yet they never respond and 
never bother to check out the facts themselves. They are not very diligent 
-- to say the least. In the old days, reporters supposedly thought for 
themselves and did their own leg work. I expect that is more "golden age" 
mythology.

- Jed

Sent to pcmag ziffdavis.com, energy@dvorak.org.

Subject: Please do not knock cold fusion


                                         Jed Rothwell
                                         Contributing Editor
                                         Infinite Energy Magazine
                                         www.infinite-energy.com

                                         Nov. 28, 2000

Dear Mr. Dvorak,

In your Dec. 5, 2000 column, you listed cold fusion as a non-existent 
"grand dream." This is incorrect. Although the term "cold fusion" is not 
scientifically accurate, nuclear effects in solid-state metal lattices do 
exist, just as Pons and Fleischman reported in 1989. These effects have 
been observed repeatedly in hundreds of laboratories, including Los Alamos 
[1] and several other leading national laboratories. Excess heat, tritium 
and other evidence has been measured at high signal-to-noise ratios, 
exceeding Sigma 90 in some cases. [2] While it remains very difficult to 
reproduce in most laboratories, over last five years researchers at the 
Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries have achieved 100 
percent reproduceability. [3] Many experiments have been published in the 
peer reviewed journals in electrochemistry, and physics journals published 
by American Nuclear Society, the American Chemical Society, and in the 
Japanese Journal of Applied Physics.

At this stage in its development, cold fusion generally produces 5 or 10 
watts of power maximum in a delicate experimental apparatus, near room 
temperature. It is far from being a practical source of energy. However, 
the devices are extremely cheap, and the effect is robust once it appears. 
Experimental and theoretical breakthroughs may rapidly thrust it into the 
realm of practical technology. Researchers at Hokkaido University have 
succeeded in producing the effect at high temperatures, in a 3000 deg C 
plasma, which may allow good Carnot efficiency. [4]

Most research in this area is conducted in Japan, and in Italy at the 
Italian National Physical Laboratory. Several senior and retired U.S. 
researchers who would very much like to do experimental work in this area, 
but nearly all funding in the U.S. was cut off in 1992 because of fierce 
opposition to this research from the mainstream physics community. [5] An 
upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American 
scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was 
announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000, 
Marriott Wardman Park hotel, Washington, D.C., during the cold fusion 
subsection Low-energy Nuclear Reactions II, III. If you would be 
interested, I would be happy to send you a copy of that paper or abstracts 
to the work referenced below.

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell


                                 References

1. T. N. Claytor, D. D. Jackson and D. G. Tuggle, "Tritium Production from 
a Low Voltage Deuterium Discharge on Palladium and Other Metals," 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm

2. SRI International and Electric Power Research Institute, "Development of 
Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," M.C.H. 
McKubre, et al., EPRI TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, Final Report, 
August 1994, 128 pages, plus 342 pages on microfiche

3. Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiro Itoh, Nobuaki Gotoh, Mitsuru Sakano, Ichiro 
Toyoda and Hiroshi Sakata, "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-Ray and 
Excess Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium Through 
Multi-Layer Cathode (Pd/CaO/Pd)," proc. Seventh International Conf. Cold 
Fusion, Vancouver, April 19-24, 1998. See also follow up report, Second 
Annual JCF Conference (JCF-2), October 21 - 22, 2000, Hokkaido National 
University

4. Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi, 
"Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl. 
Phys. Vol. 39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000

5. Julian Schwinger, "Cold Fusion -- Does It Have a Future?," address in 
memory of Shin'ichiro Tomonaga, December 7, 1991, in Japan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 12:39:15 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Miles claims 100% reproducible cold fusion
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At 4:33 PM 11/27/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Melvin Miles gives such understated lectures that I sometimes overlook the
>importance of his statements. Reviewing his ANS presentation, it is clear
>that he and M. A. Imam of the NRL in Washington have achieved 100 percent
>reproducible cold fusion with palladium boron alloy.
[snip]


Hopefully there will be some effort mounted to make the material for
distribution to parties interested in replication and further
investigation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Miles claims 100% reproducible cold fusion
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Horace Heffner wrote:

 >Melvin Miles gives such understated lectures that I sometimes overlook the
> >importance of his statements. Reviewing his ANS presentation, it is clear
> >that he and M. A. Imam of the NRL in Washington have achieved 100 percent
> >reproducible cold fusion with palladium boron alloy.
>[snip]
>
>
>Hopefully there will be some effort mounted to make the material for
>distribution to parties interested in replication and further
>investigation.

I am afraid that is out of the question. Miles and Imam were ordered not to 
do any research on cold fusion, back in 1985. Miles says they have softened 
up a little, and they now let him work on CF experiments on weekends using 
his own materials and funds. They now allow him to attend cold fusion 
conferences, using his vacation time and his own travel money. I cannot 
imagine Imam would be allowed to use the forges and high tech instruments 
at the NRL in Washington, given the prevailing atmosphere of rabid 
hostility. I do not think any experiment, no matter how reproducible, will 
be allowed in a large corporation or government laboratory in the U.S. as 
long as this situation continues. A scientist foolish enough to propose an 
experiment would probably be summarily fired. A few universities respect 
academic freedom enough to allow minor research programs.

I pointed this out because it is newsworthy that there is another 100% 
reproducible Pd-D2O technique, in addition to Mitsubishi's. Not because I 
think anyone is in a position to pursue it. I should have seen this alloy 
works well from the statistics Miles published, but I did not realize how 
much control Imam had over the cathode manufacturing process. He was at the 
ANS. He expressed confidence that he could make additional cathodes with 
the same characteristics.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 13:20:14 2000
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Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>X-rays are expected when any nuclear reaction is initiated within the Pd.
>However, the region of Pd outside of the cell will not contain a sufficiently
>high concentration of D to be active.  If a reaction is occurring, it will 
>be at
>the surface within the electrolyte.  This being the case, radiation will 
>have to
>pass through the Pd between this surface and the counter.  Therefore, only
>fairly energetic X-rays will be detected.

Sometimes the barriers can be useful. Years ago as an ICCF conference, 
Italian researchers showed interesting x-ray photos taken with film placed 
outside of the cell. The anode was made of multiple strands of wire. The 
photos showed clear-cut shadows of the anode, which proved the 
x-rays  originated at the cathode, and not somewhere else in the cell. Not 
that they COULD originate anywhere else, but it was nice to see proof! They 
did extensive computer modeling with these autoradiograph images, analyzing 
the distribution of light and dark areas, and they found out a lot about 
the reaction, using this simple tool -- the oldest method of detecting x-rays.

At the NHE, one of the thermocouples in Melvin Miles' cell produced noise 
which he thinks occurred when it intercepted charged particles from the 
cathode. Another thermocouple which was shielded by the anode did not show 
the noise.

- Jed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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At 3:49 PM 11/27/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Well . . . if you used a new cathode wouldn't the continued results still
>be statistically significant? Why would that be any different from
>replenishing  heavy water? Mizuno used 1000 (!) tungsten cathodes to derive
>the data in his recent JJAP paper. Most of the graphs show combined results
>from many different cathodes.


Lumping the counts from different runs together is not as good as keeping
the counts separate and then doing tests on those numbers to determine
probability each value is a sample from the same distribution.  By
maintaining the identity of counts for each of the experiments as
individual data points you gain more information, and can identify rogue
experiments.   You can estimate sigma given the number of counts in a given
counting interval, but that does not give you information on the variance
that is due to experimental conditions.  Counting a bunch of different
cathodes and adding the counts can give you false confidence in the derived
number.



[snip]
>The cover plate acts as the lead wire, conducting electricity into
>the cathode, and it also acts as a shield to filter out gamma rays from
>tritium, which may be present in the electrolyte.
[snip]


Tritium does not produce gammas.  It produces 18.6 keV betas, which are
easily stopped by glass or plastic cell walls.  It could be a potassium
electrolyte was used?  (A bad choice for this experiment, since 40K and 41K
would produce 3.523 MeV and 1.32 MeV  betas, and 3.13, 1.52, 0.221, and
0.373 MeV gammas.)

I think being able to detect an increase in low energy betas over time in
either the electrolyte or electrodes would be very useful.  Some years back
I suggested depositing a cathode film over a scintillating substrate as a
means of doing this.  I think there may be some scintillating plastics that
would be suitable for this.  I don't know if anyone tried it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 13:43:36 2000
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:25:25 -0500
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Hi Ed,
The following url appears to describe a form of
magnetic carbon. I was suprised when I first
noticed it about 6 months ago. Although this is not
pure carbon, it does not appear to contain any recognized
ferromagnetic elements.

http://www.aist.go.jp/NIMC/overview/v7.html

George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


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Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >X-rays are expected when any nuclear reaction is initiated within the Pd.
> >However, the region of Pd outside of the cell will not contain a sufficiently
> >high concentration of D to be active.  If a reaction is occurring, it will
> >be at
> >the surface within the electrolyte.  This being the case, radiation will
> >have to
> >pass through the Pd between this surface and the counter.  Therefore, only
> >fairly energetic X-rays will be detected.
>
> Sometimes the barriers can be useful. Years ago as an ICCF conference,
> Italian researchers showed interesting x-ray photos taken with film placed
> outside of the cell. The anode was made of multiple strands of wire. The
> photos showed clear-cut shadows of the anode, which proved the
> x-rays  originated at the cathode, and not somewhere else in the cell. Not
> that they COULD originate anywhere else, but it was nice to see proof! They
> did extensive computer modeling with these autoradiograph images, analyzing
> the distribution of light and dark areas, and they found out a lot about
> the reaction, using this simple tool -- the oldest method of detecting x-rays.
>
> At the NHE, one of the thermocouples in Melvin Miles' cell produced noise
> which he thinks occurred when it intercepted charged particles from the
> cathode. Another thermocouple which was shielded by the anode did not show
> the noise.

This makes no sense.  Energetic charged particles can not pass through the
electrolyte.  In addition, for a signal to be added to the thermocouple, the
current supplied by the charged particles would have to be unreasonably large.
On the other hand, such noise raises doubts about the accuracy of the temperature
measurement.

Ed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: McKubre's ANS lecture
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:57:40 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:02:21 -0500:
[snip]
>On another subject, I am now -- at this moment -- looking at Frank's tape 
>of McKubre's ANS lecture. McKubre did state unequivocally that he now 
>thinks this is "fusion: D+D fusion resulting in helium-4." That's the 
>boldest statement about the nature of the reaction that I have heard from 
>him. I cannot get him to comment on the transmutations that other people 
>observe. As far as I know, they prove this CANNOT be "merely" D+D fusion.
>
>- Jed
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there ought to be a class of
reactions that would generate the requisite 23.8 MeV, yet also be
transmutation reactions. Something along the lines of:

M (Z,A) + D -> M (Z+1,A+2) + x MeV followed by

M (Z+1,A+2) + D -> M (Z,A) + He4 + y MeV, where

x + y = 23.8 MeV. 

There should be quite a few M's that would satisfy this. If the second
reaction were to proceed much more easily that the first, then only small
quantities of M (Z+1,A+2) would remain, and the overall energy release would
be close to 23.8 MeV.

The end product would be primarily He4.

This is analogous to the carbon cycle, but then for deuterium rather than
protium.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 14:06:20 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Standard protest letter
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:03:40 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:54:51 -0500:

>I doubt it does any good, but when I see some ignorant jackass attack cold 
>fusion in a newspaper or magazine, I sometimes take the trouble to send a 
>short form letter of protest. Here is the latest version. I try to maintain 
[snip]
Hi Jed,

I notice that you didn't mention He4.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 14:37:18 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Frank Znidarsic's concept?
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Hi,

Frank has proposed that the basic universal constants change in a
superconductor (if I'm not mistaken). Furthermore, recent work with BE
condensates has shown extreme reductions in the speed of light.
Suppose that such a reduction resulted in a commensurate reduction in the
frequency of photons emitted by nuclear reactions.
ISO a single 23.8 MeV gamma ray, a newly formed He4 nucleus might emit
copious photons of low energy. If e.g. the speed of light were slowed to 1
m/sec, then an equivalent reduction in the frequency would result in photons
with an energy of 0.079 eV (thermal photons).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 14:38:18 2000
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:33:50 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Tritium does not produce gammas.  It produces 18.6 keV betas, which are
>easily stopped by glass or plastic cell walls.

Right. Sorry. I think they said it would filter out all extraneous stuff, 
and results with copper of different thickness were informative. Changing 
the barrier thickness, material and position is the kind of thing Takahashi 
often does with his beam-loading experiments.


>  It could be a potassium
>electrolyte was used?

It was standard LiOD.


I think being able to detect an increase in low energy betas over time in
>either the electrolyte or electrodes would be very useful.  Some years back
>I suggested depositing a cathode film over a scintillating substrate as a
>means of doing this.  I think there may be some scintillating plastics that
>would be suitable for this.  I don't know if anyone tried it.

As a matter of fact Kenny and Oriani were talking about those plastics. 
Oriani has also recently made a cell with the protruding cathode, and he 
has tried attaching some of these plastic detector things to it.

Years ago people made cells with palladium deposited on beryllium windows 
-- that is, beryllium incorporated into the cell wall, usually at the 
bottom of the cell. Beryllium is transparent to x-rays and it is used in 
x-ray machines for that reason.  I think some of these experiments produced 
intriguing results, but unfortunately beryllium is poisonous and difficult 
to work with.

- Jed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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At 11:54 AM 11/28/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>The interesting observation, if true,
>is that nuclear reactions producing significant radiation are more easily
>initiated than those that produce heat and helium. (Ed Storms)
[snip]


This IS amazing that measurable radiation is more reliably produced than
nuclear ash, and runs somewhat counter to prior evidence.  One of the
"miracles" of CF is the production of nuclear reactions WITHOUT a
corresponding radiation signature.  I suppose a small difficult to detect
signature is actually not so counter to prior evidence, but I think at
least some looking for such a signature has been done.  One example is the
contact exposure of film by used cathodes.  This exposure is not
necessarily indicative of the nuclear process itself, but rather of a
nuclear reaction product.

A signal detectable by ordinary geiger counters does seem a bit incredible.
I have not detected any such signal in various electrochemical
experiments. However, I too, like most others, had at least a layer of
glass between the cathode and the counter, plus the counter's envelope.
The signature may be in the form of low energy betas.  I wonder if this
possibility might be consistent with Chubb's theories in which the lattice
as a whole absorbs the reaction energy.  To conjecture a bit, a
localization and focusing of that absorbtion, due to a lattice flaw, might
generate some low energy betas from ordinary lattice electrons.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Miles claims 100% reproducible cold fusion
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At 4:03 PM 11/28/0, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>I pointed this out because it is newsworthy that there is another 100%
>reproducible Pd-D2O technique, in addition to Mitsubishi's. Not because I
>think anyone is in a position to pursue it. I should have seen this alloy
>works well from the statistics Miles published, but I did not realize how
>much control Imam had over the cathode manufacturing process. He was at the
>ANS. He expressed confidence that he could make additional cathodes with
>the same characteristics.


Perhaps Imam would publish his technique, say in I.E?

There must be some organization somewhere, probably academic, that can
reproduce his material?  If the original work was done at ANS it should be
public domain, true?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I notice that you didn't mention He4.

Yes, that was deliberate. Helium results are impressive to people who 
understand cold fusion already, and to people understand how difficult it 
is to detect an inert gas, but explaining this aspect of CF to a 
nonscientist when your first try to introduce the subject opens up a can of 
worms . . .

Actually . . . come to think of it, a surprising number of scientists 
are  bollixed by helium. They keep insisting it is leaking into McKubre 
cell, even when the helium concentration in cell goes above that of the 
atmosphere. It reminds me of the never-ending recombination bugaboo on 
s.p.f. Some people, including Steve Jones, will NEVER understand that when 
excess heat exceeds I*V, or in a closed cell, recombination cannot be a 
factor. I must have told Jones that a dozen times myself, and Miles and 
Fleischmann also told him, but he never so much as acknowledged the 
statement or tried to rebut it.

I also did not mentioned the reviews of the field written by Ed Storms -- 
and he took me to task for that! I should have mentioned them, and I have 
listed them in previous reincarnations of this letter, but perhaps I didn't 
for the same reason I steer clear of helium. A nonscientist outsider might 
find these papers a little overwhelming. Beautifully written, though.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>This IS amazing that measurable radiation is more reliably produced than
>nuclear ash, and runs somewhat counter to prior evidence.  One of the
>"miracles" of CF is the production of nuclear reactions WITHOUT a
>corresponding radiation signature.

Oh, I do not think this is the claim. Presumably, the nuclear ash is 
present in the cell or released as helium into the atmosphere, but it would 
be impossible to detect it in such small amounts, using such crude 
equipment. The radiation signature has always been there, and it has been 
measured in many experiments, but this has been difficult until people 
began bringing the cathodes out of the cells.

The anode has also been a major barrier to detection, along with the water 
and glass or metal cell wall. I mentioned that before, but it should be 
made explicit. Many people use mesh anodes, and anodes much larger than the 
cathode. This helps to load the cathode evenly, but it seems like a good 
way to block radiation. Kenny uses a punny little wire anode separated from 
the cathode by about a centimeter in the 1 ml cell. From the 
electrochemical point of view, this is a dumb thing to do, but he is not 
trying to achieve high loading to make a large CF reaction.

I expect these cells do produce minute levels of heat, but you cannot cram 
the cell and the GM counter into a calorimeter. Even when you have tons of 
money and expertise, like Iwamura, you must sacrifice calorimetry to 
measure radiation or transmutations.


>   I suppose a small difficult to detect
>signature is actually not so counter to prior evidence, but I think at
>least some looking for such a signature has been done.  One example is the
>contact exposure of film by used cathodes.

Quite right. And a few people with lots of money have successfully measured 
radiation with on-line detectors. The radiation is usually sporadic. It 
might be sporadic with Kenny too. Either that or it is masked by changes in 
the noise.

- Jed

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Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:54 AM 11/28/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> >The interesting observation, if true,
> >is that nuclear reactions producing significant radiation are more easily
> >initiated than those that produce heat and helium. (Ed Storms)
> [snip]
>
> This IS amazing that measurable radiation is more reliably produced than
> nuclear ash, and runs somewhat counter to prior evidence.  One of the
> "miracles" of CF is the production of nuclear reactions WITHOUT a
> corresponding radiation signature.  I suppose a small difficult to detect
> signature is actually not so counter to prior evidence, but I think at
> least some looking for such a signature has been done.  One example is the
> contact exposure of film by used cathodes.  This exposure is not
> necessarily indicative of the nuclear process itself, but rather of a
> nuclear reaction product.
>
> A signal detectable by ordinary geiger counters does seem a bit incredible.
> I have not detected any such signal in various electrochemical
> experiments. However, I too, like most others, had at least a layer of
> glass between the cathode and the counter, plus the counter's envelope.
> The signature may be in the form of low energy betas.  I wonder if this
> possibility might be consistent with Chubb's theories in which the lattice
> as a whole absorbs the reaction energy.  To conjecture a bit, a
> localization and focusing of that absorbtion, due to a lattice flaw, might
> generate some low energy betas from ordinary lattice electrons.

In the past, people placed great emphasis on seeing neutrons or gamma, based
on the expected products from hot fusion.  This radiation is not present in
significant amounts, as you note.  On the other hand, evidence for X-rays has
been found using both films and X-ray spectrometers.  As expected, the
characteristic X-ray of Pd is seen along with other energies.  Any thing that
can shake up the lattice as  would a nuclear reaction is bound to release some
electrons from the orbits of the surrounding atoms.  Unfortunately, this
radiation can only be seen when no absorbers are present.  The current studies
suggest that nuclear reactions can be easily initiated, perhaps even the
fusion reaction, but at too low a level to allow heat to be detected.  Only
the very rare conditions produce enough energy to be detected.  A search for
X-rays along with energy would seem to be the best approach.  In this way the
variables could be adjusted to increase the effect based on the radiation
until a strong enough effect was produced to allow the energy to be measured.
The problem is to have a suitable detector within the cell.  Do you know of
any very small X-ray detectors?

Regards,
Ed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:52:06 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:18:09 -0500:
[snip]
>The anode has also been a major barrier to detection, along with the water 
>and glass or metal cell wall. I mentioned that before, but it should be 
>made explicit. Many people use mesh anodes, and anodes much larger than the 
>cathode. This helps to load the cathode evenly, but it seems like a good 
>way to block radiation. Kenny uses a punny little wire anode separated from 
[snip]
A trivially simple solution to this problem is to use a plate anode either
flat on the bottom of the cell, or edge-on to the cathode, such that it
presents minimal profile to the cathode, yet has a high surface area for
electrolysis. If the latter is used, multiple plates in a star configuration
will increase the anode area even more.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 17:51:49 2000
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Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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Thanks, this is very interesting.  I guess one has to rely
on an analysis for iron.  People who have published their
studies, such as John Bockris, did indeed analyze for iron
in addition to finding a magnetic material.  At least in his
case, no doubt remains that the material contained iron.
Ed

George Holz wrote:

> Hi Ed,
> The following url appears to describe a form of
> magnetic carbon. I was suprised when I first
> noticed it about 6 months ago. Although this is not
> pure carbon, it does not appear to contain any recognized
> ferromagnetic elements.
>
> http://www.aist.go.jp/NIMC/overview/v7.html
>
> George Holz                george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
> Bound Brook, NJ          08805

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To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject:  Falaco .....Re: Frank Znidarsic's concept?
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	Dear Robin,

	The Bose-Einstein condensates and the "slowing" of the speed of
light is a real example of context.  Some investigators exposed a clump of
several atoms that were all behaving, in a wave-like manner to light.  The
light moved the super cold atoms.  The super cold atoms would have moved
differently if the conditions were different... this allowed some of the
investigators to say (sort of):  "Gee .... if light were slowed down to
about 35 miles per hour it might cause the atoms to be differently
affected.... so, because we saw the atoms behave as though light were
moving slowly... we can announce the light has been slowed down". 

	I am not knocking you.  I am saying a lot of scientific
announcements are taken FAR out of context so the work will sound 'gee
whizz"... then the popular press takes the GW part... and does not take
the time to teach the readers about the experiment.... then this effect...
which is now not only out of context, but is without any framework at all
is latched onto by readers who often "blend in" the part they like.
	And.... like the game Telephone ... this Orphan Out of context
Observation .... gets a ride... often a VERY long ride...
 
	In some ways an example of this is like the ZPE and Casimir
citation we see a lot.  The idea of the Casimir effect was two conductive
plates are gently pushed together.... if you are in Vacuum.  Recently I
asked what experiments showed this effect. Three experiments I am often
steered to ... and I will dig up the references ... used TINY elements ...
one a pair of conducting plates...  one a pair of dielectric plates and
one a tiny sphere and a plate.
	It looks like I will have to dig out the papers.... extract the
experimental part and post it..them... so we can see where the floor and
the roof are.   And...you have to use some energy to pull the little
plates apart ... after they are together.  And.... if the EM redaiation
areounf you is really weak ... then the pushing is weak.

	Many times people do not even read the materials they quote.
The just go and Forge ahead!

	When I recently asked questions about Falaco solitons and what
they were and how they were named... one fellow wrote "They are named
Falaco solitons because Falaco discovered them."
	Well!  This is Truly interesting.... because these IS NO Falaco! 

	Falaco is a sort of a nick name that came about because a friend of the
investigator was victim of poor spelling of his name.  So his friends
sometimes called him Falaco ... the error spelling.  

	New Story....

Now: an invesigator
sees these really unusual effects in a swimming pool.... and Jumps In to
see what they were.... but Killes them jumping in.  But he figured out how
to make the effect again... and they are really COOL.  And you can see
where they are.... sometimes ... if there is bright sun in the proper
angle you can see the shadow of these aqueous wonders of Nature. 
	Now...... Guess who's swimming pool it was? 
	Why is was "Falaco's" !!

	This is why I like the history and ethics of science.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Frank has proposed that the basic universal constants change in a
> superconductor (if I'm not mistaken). Furthermore, recent work with BE
> condensates has shown extreme reductions in the speed of light.
> Suppose that such a reduction resulted in a commensurate reduction in the
> frequency of photons emitted by nuclear reactions.
> ISO a single 23.8 MeV gamma ray, a newly formed He4 nucleus might emit
> copious photons of low energy. If e.g. the speed of light were slowed to 1
> m/sec, then an equivalent reduction in the frequency would result in photons
> with an energy of 0.079 eV (thermal photons).

	Wouldn't you get one photon for one electron?

	What does ISO mean?   Please.   
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 18:29:50 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:27:29 +1100
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In reply to  George Holz's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:25:25 -0500:

>Hi Ed,
>The following url appears to describe a form of
>magnetic carbon. I was suprised when I first
>noticed it about 6 months ago. Although this is not
>pure carbon, it does not appear to contain any recognized
>ferromagnetic elements.
>
>http://www.aist.go.jp/NIMC/overview/v7.html
[snip]
This article doesn't however state that the materials in question comprise
pure carbon. On the contrary, they say "...diverse organic compound
monomers.." these may well contain foreign atoms, and perhaps even metal
atoms.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:32:43 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Dear Folks,

	Below is citation of "contact exposure" of cathodes....

	Are the cathodes place Directly on photographic film?
	Is there a barrier, membrane or other intermediates to prevent
chemical action with the film?

	Are GM counter readings taken with electronic noise artifact
precautions in place?  A good GM counter witha thin window will see ANY
particle that gets through  the window ...

	And... on the historical note.... ...We used to use GM counters
with NO window at all!  And they would "see"  anything coming down the
pike... even dust... photons ... water vapor....  some Windowless GM, or
WGMC ... counters were very sensitive and there is even remebrance of WGMC
run from electro static generators.. like Van de Graff types... and the
sensing of counts has been known to be accomplished by gold leaf
electrometers and even "signing" water drop streams giving the counts as 
the droplets made sounds from hitting a thin rubber membrane stretched
across a ring some inches across. Very 'cool' stuff.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:54 AM 11/28/0, Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> >The interesting observation, if true,
> >is that nuclear reactions producing significant radiation are more easily
> >initiated than those that produce heat and helium. (Ed Storms)
> [snip]
> 
> 
> This IS amazing that measurable radiation is more reliably produced than
> nuclear ash, and runs somewhat counter to prior evidence.  One of the
> "miracles" of CF is the production of nuclear reactions WITHOUT a
> corresponding radiation signature.  I suppose a small difficult to detect
> signature is actually not so counter to prior evidence, but I think at
> least some looking for such a signature has been done.  One example is the
> contact exposure of film by used cathodes.  This exposure is not
> necessarily indicative of the nuclear process itself, but rather of a
> nuclear reaction product.
> 
> A signal detectable by ordinary geiger counters does seem a bit incredible.
> I have not detected any such signal in various electrochemical
> experiments. However, I too, like most others, had at least a layer of
> glass between the cathode and the counter, plus the counter's envelope.
> The signature may be in the form of low energy betas.  I wonder if this
> possibility might be consistent with Chubb's theories in which the lattice
> as a whole absorbs the reaction energy.  To conjecture a bit, a
> localization and focusing of that absorbtion, due to a lattice flaw, might
> generate some low energy betas from ordinary lattice electrons.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Falaco .....Re: Frank Znidarsic's concept?
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:22:08 -0500
(EST):

>
>
>	Dear Robin,
>
>	The Bose-Einstein condensates and the "slowing" of the speed of
>light is a real example of context.  Some investigators exposed a clump of
>several atoms that were all behaving, in a wave-like manner to light.  The
>light moved the super cold atoms.  The super cold atoms would have moved
>differently if the conditions were different... this allowed some of the
>investigators to say (sort of):  "Gee .... if light were slowed down to
>about 35 miles per hour it might cause the atoms to be differently
>affected.... so, because we saw the atoms behave as though light were
>moving slowly... we can announce the light has been slowed down". 

Ok, I should have made an effort to read the original paper. 

>
>	I am not knocking you.  I am saying a lot of scientific

Sure you are, but then maybe I deserve it. I knew this was far fetched when
I wrote it, but sometimes it's worth going out on a limb, for the sake of a
possible new insight into the nature of things. So I threw out a line, to
see what would turn up. :)

[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 19:49:59 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A New definition of entropy
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:48:06 +1100
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Entropy means you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 28 20:24:06 2000
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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At 4:33 PM 11/28/0, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Do you know of
>any very small X-ray detectors?

No, but one might be made by adhering an appropriate fluorescent material
to the end of an optical fiber.  It may even be possible to construct one
by adhering an appropriate crystal to the end of an optical fiber.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: contactRe: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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At 9:32 PM 11/28/0, John Schnurer wrote:

>        Are the cathodes place Directly on photographic film?
>        Is there a barrier, membrane or other intermediates to prevent
>chemical action with the film?

I do not have any of the related articles.  However, much discussion of
this issue is in the archives of vortex and at least some is in
sci.physics.fusion.  I did some experimentaion myself in this area related
to that debate and posted it on vortex.  I exposed some color film to
Li2SO4 to see if it exposed the film.  It did not affect the film at all.
I was on the side that felt the Li2SO4 might affect the film.

If I recall correctly there was no barrier between the electrodes and the
film, but the electrodes were dried.


>
>        Are GM counter readings taken with electronic noise artifact
>precautions in place?  A good GM counter witha thin window will see ANY
>particle that gets through  the window ...
[snip]


What GM readings, Kennys?  This I assume is a question for Jed, but Keny
did use a thin (outer) layer of copper connected to the DC power supply,
and thus quasi-grounded.  It seems likely that if the noise came from the
DC supply it would turn on pretty fast, not slowly grow, and that
sufficient potential could not be generated on the electrode to trigger a
GM counter without some direct connection.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:58:19 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:29:45 -0900:
[snip]
>No, but one might be made by adhering an appropriate fluorescent material
>to the end of an optical fiber.  It may even be possible to construct one
>by adhering an appropriate crystal to the end of an optical fiber.
[snip]
Or, as has been previously suggested, simply add a fluorescent die to the
electrolyte.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 06:08:05 2000
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <4b.41e2340.2756672e aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:05:34 EST
Subject: Re: Falaco .....Re: Frank Znidarsic's concept?
To: herman antioch-college.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 11/28/00 9:17:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
herman antioch-college.edu writes:

<< On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 > Frank has proposed that the basic universal constants change in a
 > superconductor (if I'm not mistaken). Furthermore, recent work with BE
 > condensates has shown extreme reductions in the speed of light.
 > Suppose that such a reduction resulted in a commensurate reduction in the
 > frequency of photons emitted by nuclear reactions.
 > ISO a single 23.8 MeV gamma ray, a newly formed He4 nucleus might emit
 > copious photons of low energy. If e.g. the speed of light were slowed to 1
 > m/sec, then an equivalent reduction in the frequency would result in 
photons
 > with an energy of 0.079 eV (thermal photons).
 
    Wouldn't you get one photon for one electron?
 
    What does ISO mean?   Please.    >>

This is almost what I have said.  Light does slow down in a Bose condensate.
The energy of the photons remains the same.  The wavelength of the photons 
increases.
This brings us back to David Noever's work on the Downshifting of the 
Frequencies.
Not only does the photons wavelength increase but so do the Compton and 
Planck wavelengths of matter.
In short the Bose medium appears softer.  The gravitational and nuclear 
constants do not tend toward the
electromagnetic in an ordinary condensate.  They do tend toward the 
electromagnetic in a vibrationally
reinforced condensate. 


 I know the technologies that come out of this. 
 For now they are between Miley, myself, and Lattice Energy.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 07:16:55 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Kenny at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>A trivially simple solution to this problem is to use a plate anode either
>flat on the bottom of the cell, or edge-on to the cathode, such that it
>presents minimal profile to the cathode, yet has a high surface area for
>electrolysis.

Yeah, that is what Iwamura does, and Oriani too, I think.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 07:37:41 2000
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: A New definition of entropy
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>Entropy means you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube ;)

***{Entropy is said to increase when an irreversible change takes place
within a system, and to decrease when a reversible change occurs. Since all
real changes are to some extent irreversible, it supposedly follows that
all changes within a closed system cause some degree of increase in
entropy. However, that is incorrect. The thinking which leads to such a
conclusion is focused on *small scale* systems. If the scale of the system
is increased sufficiently, so that it encompasses a large enough volume of
space and a sufficient duration of time, the result is *constant* entropy:
the number of new tubes full of toothpaste, speaking metaphorically, that
are being created within the system comes to be equal to the number of
tubes that are being squeezed out. The fallacy lies in failing to realize
that "irreversible change" means "immediately irreversible change"--i.e.,
that it is impossible to put all of *that* toothpast back in *that* tube,
or to unpop *that* bubble, etc. However, the fact that there are aspects of
all processes that are not immediately reversible--i.e., not reversible
within small regions of space and time--does not mean that entropy is
increasing, or even that it is changing, in the cosmos as a whole. --MJ}***

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

***{The above-referenced article makes some excellent points. Everyone in
this group should read it and think about it. If mankind is to have a
future, decentralization is mandatory. Unfortunately, those who would
enslave us are fixated on centralization, because of the control that it
gives them over our lives. Result: we stand at serious risk of losing this
civilization. And if we do lose it, the odds are good that the human
species will eventually become extinct. The reason: the easily accessible
energy resources have already been consumed. Thus if mankind attempts to
claw its way back from the stone age a second time, the probability of
success is going to be much reduced. --MJ}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"Al Gore is so dense that light curves around him." --Jack Wheeler

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 07:50:42 2000
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:47:28 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: ATP powered virus-scale machines
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See:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov00/propeller.hrs.html

Quotes:

First biomolecular motors with metal propellers can live inside cells, 
Cornell nanobiotechnologists report

ITHACA, N.Y. -- Nanobiotechnologists at Cornell University have built and 
pilot-tested the first biomolecular motors with tiny metal propellers.
Success in fabricating and operating hybrid organic-inorganic nanodevices 
the size of virus particles is reported by the Cornell team of 
biophysicists and engineers in the Nov. 24 issue of the journal Science.

Fueled by adenosine triphosphate (ATP, the so-called energy of cellular 
life) and spinning nickel propellers at eight revolutions per second, 
molecular motors made of ATPase enzyme are said to herald a new generation 
of ultrasmall, robotic, medical devices: "nanonurses" that move about the 
body, ministering to its needs, for example, or "smart pharmacies" that 
detect chemical signals from body cells, calculate the dose and precisely 
dispense drugs.

. . . Mounted on 200-nm-high pedestals and immersed in a solution of ATP 
and other chemicals, some of the biomolecular motors spun their propellers 
for two-and-a-half hours.

But before the nanodevices take flight, "We need to achieve a higher level 
of site occupancy," said Montemagno, noting that "only" five of the first 
400 propeller-equipped motors worked. Some propellers came loose and flew 
off. Some motors apparently dropped off their test pedestals and others 
never took their places in the first place.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is interesting in its own right, and I am sorry to inject the CF view 
into every science news story but . . . Five out of 400 worked, yet nobody 
is yelling "irreproducible!" A 1% success rate convinces everyone. But a 
30% or 50% success rate is supposedly not good enough for CF. Granted, it 
is easier to confirm that these propellers are spinning than to confirm 
calorimetry, but not that much easier.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 08:40:23 2000
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:37:34 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
In-Reply-To: <3A24529C.8232774E ix.netcom.com>
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Thanks, this is very interesting.  I guess one has to rely
>on an analysis for iron.  People who have published their
>studies, such as John Bockris, did indeed analyze for iron
>in addition to finding a magnetic material.  At least in his
>case, no doubt remains that the material contained iron.

I think there is little doubt about most of these experiments. Most 
researchers, including the people at Howard, use chemical analyses or mass 
spectroscopy. A few have tried to prove the issue immediately after the 
test by placing the powder on a paper and moving a magnet under it. My 
understanding is that paramagnetic particles will move, and of course these 
newly discovered exotic forms of carbon will. This is a crude test and I 
think everyone who makes this claim seriously also does more rigorous 
tests. I only brought up the issue of "magnetic carbon" to illustrate the 
need for rigorous testing by a variety of different means.

The real question about this experiment is contamination, and the 
possibility of iron particles in the carbon sample. It seems unlikely that 
there would be enough contamination to produce these results.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 08:53:19 2000
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: IRON ..Re: IBR: Weiss: Magnegas reactor website 11.22.00
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At 11:37 AM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>The real question about this experiment is contamination, and the 
>possibility of iron particles in the carbon sample. It seems unlikely that 
>there would be enough contamination to produce these results.

A friend of mine went nuts over the recent stable magnetic levitation 
demonstration (ours can be viewed at 
http://www.earthtech.org/magnets/lev.html) and started measuring the 
diamagnetic properties of various materials.

After discovering that several of his graphite samples were actually 
attracted to magnets rather than repelled, he brought them to me for XRF 
analysis.  We discovered that some graphite has lots of Fe (~1%) in it.

Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fe produced in the carbon arc 
experiment was present in the carbon rods to begin with.

If someone wants to reproduce this experiment, I would be glad to analyze 
both the rods and the residue created to see if the amount of Fe "produced" 
is consistent with the original Fe content of the rods.   My XRF analysis 
measures total elemental Fe and is insensitive to isotopic distribution.

If you want to take me up on this offer, please contact me privately so we 
can discuss the sampling requirements.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 09:19:16 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

We discovered that some graphite has lots of Fe (~1%) in it.

>Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fe produced in the carbon arc 
>experiment was present in the carbon rods to begin with.
>
>If someone wants to reproduce this experiment, I would be glad to analyze 
>both the rods and the residue created to see if the amount of Fe 
>"produced" is consistent with the original Fe content of the rods.

That's an important point, but I think everyone who has tried this 
experiment has compared before and after samples. I cannot imagine any 
other way to do it. But even with a before-and-after test, questions arise:

1. You have to grind up the entire "before" sample to make sure there's no 
iron inside, so that is not the actual sample you use in the experiment. It 
might be a piece cut off the original sample, or another rod from the same 
box. You have to assume that all samples have equal amounts of iron 
contamination, distributed more or less evenly through the samples. Is that 
a reasonable assumption? I wouldn't know.

2. What about iron contamination from other items in the cell? This 
experiment produces a great deal of heat which could destroy other components.

Like most things related to CF, this experiment starts out looking simple 
-- "simple in principle" -- but the ramifications multiply and pretty soon 
you want to spend $10 million to make sure you are doing it right.

- Jed

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At 12:16 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

1. You have to grind up the entire "before" sample to make sure there's no 
iron inside, so that is not the actual sample you use in the experiment. It 
might be a piece cut off the original sample, or another rod from the same 
box. You have to assume that all samples have equal amounts of iron 
contamination, distributed more or less evenly through the samples. Is that 
a reasonable assumption? I wouldn't know.

One of the great advantages of XRF is that it is nondestructive and offers 
excellent specimen versatility.  With some effort to correct for geometry 
effects, the carbon rod could be analyzed directly, permitting an Fe survey 
of the rod from end to end before the experiment to ensure homogeneity of 
the Fe content.

You would then perform the experiment and weigh the rod to determine the 
weight loss due to arc erosion.  You would then need to collect ALL the 
precipitate formed during the experiment and weigh it and analyze it for Fe 
to determine the total mass of Fe collected in the precip.  You should also 
take samples of the electrolyte before and after and analyze both of them 
for Fe content...it is at least conceivable that some of the Fe in the rods 
would go into solution during the experiment.  etc. etc. etc.

>2. What about iron contamination from other items in the cell? This 
>experiment produces a great deal of heat which could destroy other components.

Indeed.  Everything that touches the electrolyte (and the electrolyte 
itself) must be considered.

>Like most things related to CF, this experiment starts out looking simple 
>-- "simple in principle" -- but the ramifications multiply and pretty soon 
>you want to spend $10 million to make sure you are doing it right.

I'd say more like $10,000 but your point is well taken.  The experiment 
must be done right in order to draw any meaningful conclusions.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 10:46:41 2000
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Scott Little wrote:

>At 12:16 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>1. You have to grind up the entire "before" sample to make sure there's no 
>iron inside . . .

Actually, I guess you dissolve it usually.


>One of the great advantages of XRF is that it is nondestructive and offers 
>excellent specimen versatility.  With some effort to correct for geometry 
>effects, the carbon rod could be analyzed directly, permitting an Fe 
>survey of the rod from end to end before the experiment to ensure 
>homogeneity of the Fe content.

How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF 
only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to 
chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what they 
do.)

Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you 
what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:

http://www.niton.com/800.html

It sounds like something from Star Trek. "Get me a reading on that, Dr. Spock."


>>Like most things related to CF, this experiment starts out looking simple 
>>-- "simple in principle" -- but the ramifications multiply and pretty 
>>soon you want to spend $10 million to make sure you are doing it right.
>
>I'd say more like $10,000 but your point is well taken.  The experiment 
>must be done right in order to draw any meaningful conclusions.

It must be done right, done again and again, and done in front of other 
people who learn how to do it and then go off and do it themselves.

I exaggerated the $10 million price tag, but before these results are 
generally accepted, the aggregate cost from all the labs that try it will 
exceed $10 million. And it should -- people should not believe radical 
claims which have not been widely replicated with the best instruments 
money can buy. I do not have any problem with people who remain skeptical 
about most CF claims. Only a few claims have been put to the ultimate test 
in dozens of labs.

- Jed

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At 01:44 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF 
>only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to 
>chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what 
>they do.)

You get a 1-2 cm dia analysis spot and penetration depth depends upon the 
element and the matrix.  For Fe in a C matrix, you're looking at about 0.5 
mm depth, which is actually pretty good.  The rod would have to be rather 
heterogeneous for that not to be adequate.  In my experience, most 
"manufactured" items such as this are sufficiently homogeneous to permit 
good analysis via XRF.  Of course, there are exceptions.  For example, if 
the Fe in the carbon was present as small metallic pieces broken off from 
some grinding apparatus...that would make XRF not such a good choice.  But, 
then you would discover that when you surveyed the rod for Fe...there would 
be hot spots.

>Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you 
>what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:
>
>http://www.niton.com/800.html

Those guys are serious competition for the company I used to work for:

http://www.spectrace.com/9000.htm  (I designed the probe that you see in 
that photo).




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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	In carbon rod and block, in general, the iron impurity is a result
of the raw materials' base feed stock.  One of the main contributors to
iron contamination is iron from blast furnace carbon sources.

	The iron will be in the form of small flakes or particles ..
sometimes an area of 1 or 2 inches will have practically none... and in
some cases a magnet will adhere to the material... usually thisis the case
with block.
	I have a range of block, slab and rod....

	There is no simple pattern or reason I have found... YET!



On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Scott Little wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> >How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF 
> >only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to 
> >chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what 
> >they do.)
> 
> You get a 1-2 cm dia analysis spot and penetration depth depends upon the 
> element and the matrix.  For Fe in a C matrix, you're looking at about 0.5 
> mm depth, which is actually pretty good.  The rod would have to be rather 
> heterogeneous for that not to be adequate.  In my experience, most 
> "manufactured" items such as this are sufficiently homogeneous to permit 
> good analysis via XRF.  Of course, there are exceptions.  For example, if 
> the Fe in the carbon was present as small metallic pieces broken off from 
> some grinding apparatus...that would make XRF not such a good choice.  But, 
> then you would discover that when you surveyed the rod for Fe...there would 
> be hot spots.
> 
> >Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you 
> >what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:
> >
> >http://www.niton.com/800.html
> 
> Those guys are serious competition for the company I used to work for:
> 
> http://www.spectrace.com/9000.htm  (I designed the probe that you see in 
> that photo).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:57:29 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:47:28 -0500:

>See:
>
>http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov00/propeller.hrs.html
>
>Quotes:
>
>First biomolecular motors with metal propellers can live inside cells, 
>Cornell nanobiotechnologists report
>
>ITHACA, N.Y. -- Nanobiotechnologists at Cornell University have built and 
>pilot-tested the first biomolecular motors with tiny metal propellers.
>Success in fabricating and operating hybrid organic-inorganic nanodevices 
>the size of virus particles is reported by the Cornell team of 
>biophysicists and engineers in the Nov. 24 issue of the journal Science.
>
>Fueled by adenosine triphosphate (ATP, the so-called energy of cellular 
>life) and spinning nickel propellers at eight revolutions per second, 
>molecular motors made of ATPase enzyme are said to herald a new generation 
>of ultrasmall, robotic, medical devices: "nanonurses" that move about the 
>body, ministering to its needs, for example, or "smart pharmacies" that 
>detect chemical signals from body cells, calculate the dose and precisely 
>dispense drugs.
[snip]
Bloody morons. You can't control what you can't see.
Talk about manufactured plague.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Scientists discover possible microbe from space
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http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/11/24/alien.microbe.claim/index.html

Old news already, but my guess is that this stuff will eventually pan 
out - panspermia, space virus, that sort of thing.

I still haven't found out the details about the ocean surface virus 
'problem' - the high counts of poached virus in the upper few feet of 
the ocean's surface worldwide. Normal internet search engines haven't 
helped me find it. Can't afford searches like Nexus, but I bet they 
would have the story.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists discover possible microbe from space
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Quote from:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/11/24/alien.microbe.claim/index.html

"Along with Hoyle, Wickramasinghe pioneered "panspermia," the theory that 
outer space seeded Earth with its first life forms about 4 billion years ago."


That theory drives me nuts! I really hate it, because it muddies up the 
discussion and leads nowhere. It is unproductive and cannot be falsified. 
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that life on Earth originated from an 
outer space "seed" -- either a naturally occurring seed or one sent by an 
intelligent species. That only begs the question! It pushes the origin of 
life off to some other planet at some earlier date. At some point, on some 
planet, life had to emerge from purely natural causes. It has to be on a 
planet very similar to Earth. A seed originating in a very different kind 
of planet -- with higher or lower temperatures, no water, or lower salinity 
-- would not survive on Earth. Since the conditions on this other plant 
were similar to Earth, it stands to reason that the same natural processes 
that occurred out there on Planet X also occured on Earth. Some combination 
of lightning or wave action or what-have-you synthesized the first amino 
acids on Planet X, and that process must have repeated trillions of times 
before it worked. Whatever process that was, it must also occur on Earth, 
so why shouldn't life originate here, too? And how could you tell the 
difference!?! There would be no way to distinguish between life originating 
on Earth and life brought in by seed, and thus no way to verify or falsify 
this theory.

The theory reminds me of the statement that Shakespeare did not write his 
plays; it was another man of the same name.

Some people suggest that the process which gave rise to life may have 
occurred rarely. I find this impossible to imagine. Conditions in lifeless 
stagnant pools of ocean water will be uniform throughout the world, and 
fairly simple, and the same combination of heat, light, and wave action 
will effect trillions of such pools. Unless life can only spring forth in 
an anaerobic environment, the same conditions that gave rise to the first 
cells probably occur everywhere today, just as they did 4 billion years 
ago. I suppose fragile proto-cells or unshielded strands of DNA originate 
frequently, but existing life overwhelms and eats them up. A proto-cell can 
only survive on an empty planet.

- Jed


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Jed -

At 5:19 PM -0500 11/29/00, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>That theory drives me nuts! I really hate it, because it muddies up 
>the discussion and leads nowhere.

Worse, or at least more immediately, say some virus and/or bacteria 
is found out in space - Mars, Europa, captured glob of fresh comet, 
etc. An asteroid hitting Earth in ancient times could have (and 
probably did) hurl some material offworld with low enough initial 
acceleration to have not shocked and heated it enough to kill 
microbes within it. So even if life is found elsewhere in the solar 
system, it will still take "extraordinary proof" to show that it's 
origins are truly extraterrestrial. That could come from some 
material with a convincingly extra-solar system origin due to orbit 
and trajectory. It would have to be captured in space and found to 
have life forms. But then you're up against the problem you describe. 
They'll have to land on the White House lawn and hand us their 
biology textbooks to settle it, I guess.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

I doubt it does any good, but when I see some ignorant jackass attack 
cold fusion in a newspaper or magazine, I sometimes take the trouble 
to send a short form letter of protest.

Excellent letter Jed; Your post motivated me to post an email that 
I've been planning on sending to Robert Park.

Dear Dr. Park

I've been reading your column for several months on the Vortex-L 
discussion group. by way of introduction, I'm a natural philosopher 
with an interest in physics. For several years I discussed physics 
with Otto Schmitt. he bent spoons with Uri Geller, speculated about 
the survival of the conscious mind after death, and was open minded 
on subjects like energy medicine.

I'm reminded on an ad run by TRW entitled Things aren't what they 
used to be. It featured several men making quotes such as: There is 
no possibility of heavier than air flying machines, There is no 
possibility of obtaining energy from the atomic nucleus, everything 
that can be invented has been invented, and normal women don't want 
the right to vote.

It has occurred to me that I could make a similar set of ridiculous 
quotes just by quoting  you, they would include: I don't care about 
isotopic ratios, there is no evidence that magnets heal anyone. I 
also understand that you have attacked homeopathic medicine too. I'm 
sure you would like to attack electric motors that produce more 
energy output than is consumed to run them and inertial drives too. 
Your attacks on Randell Mills work have been duly noted of course.

I decided to forward a post I did on Vortex-L. If you read through it 
you will notice the production of both energy and helium 3.

I have previously indicated an interest in the Piantelli patent, 
stimulated fusion and energy production by means of enharmonic 
stimulation. If you go to http://www.delphion.com you can search for 
patents. There is a window for type of patent,  click on the world 
patent, WO. The patent number is WO 95/20816. When you type the 
number in leave out the WO. There are several options for the type of 
document, one was a PDF file which would have been nice, but they 
wanted $3 for it. The TIFF format was free. It is a very readable 
document.

Basically the reaction takes place on a metallic bar. The patent 
gives details on how various gases were loaded into the metal. The 
gas of the most interest was natural hydrogen which is a mixture of 
protium and deutrium in a 6000 to 1 ratio.

The patent also talks about the use of different metals. Different 
metals have different critical temperatures. which must be exceeded 
for the reaction to commence. I believe that this temperature is 
based on  Debye's Constant. A table at the end of the patent details 
the critical temperature for each metal. This is Plank's Constant 
over Boltzman's constant times V sub CR .

  There is also a typical frequency for each material. See Charles 
Kittel's Introduction to Solid State Physics Willey and Sons. The 
fusion reaction is stimulated by reticular vibration. The waves form 
a coherent multimodal system of stationary oscillations. They 
speculate that this vibration causes the hydrogen atoms, which are 
held on the crystal latice to come into close enough proximity to 
react. I'm not real clear on this frequency and why they were using 
enharmonic vibrations as opposed to harmonic vibrations.

They also speculate that the reaction releases 5.5 MEV which would 
vaporize the area in the immediate vacinety  to vaporize. It also 
says that every transition from one Fermi state to another involves 
the emmission of a particle of a given frequency and wave vector. The 
patent go on to talk about the frequency of free electorns in the 
crystal latice. I'm not clear on whether the frequency is dependent 
on the metal or these electrons.

There are several means of inducing the vibration. They include 
ultrasonic, magnetic, radio frequency, and lasers. The drawing of 
preferred embodiment of the invention shows a coil surrounding the 
metal bar. They mentioned the use of 1000 Amps for short periods of 
time. The ultrasonic stimulation involves placing the bar in a 
resonant cavity. They also mentioned the use of a reverse piezo 
electric effect, and laser irridiation.

Various metals produced various energy outputs. The energy was 
measured in Mega Jules and ranged from 1.29 to 4.74 MJ per day. I 
though this was pretty impressive, until I was told that 3.6 MJ was 
equal to 1 KW hour or 3,413 BTU's. In one test a nickle bar, 200 MM 
by 3 MM  produced 4.74 MJ per day. They also noted the production of 
helium 3.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 29 16:54:00 2000
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/11/24/alien.microbe.claim/index.html
> 
> Old news already, but my guess is that this stuff will eventually pan
> out - panspermia, space virus, that sort of thing.

"Pan out"?  :-)

How about a real life "Andromeda Strain"?  Crichton wrote the book in
1969 while still in medical school.  Kinda makes you rethink the Leonids
balloon that DOD, er, uh, NASA keeps floating.

Terry

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Quote from:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/11/24/alien.microbe.claim/index.html
> 
> "Along with Hoyle, Wickramasinghe pioneered "panspermia," the theory that
> outer space seeded Earth with its first life forms about 4 billion years ago."
> 
> That theory drives me nuts! 

<snip>

Our solar system is relatively young compared to the oldest ones, by
almost 10 billion years!

Terry

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I've have been trying to find pure carbon rods myself...
I needed a pure carbon/graphite rods for their diamagnetic properties, when I
realized the carbon rods I was using were attracted to a magnet I realized why
things weren't working.

I have not had the greatest of success but I did find this:
http://www.tedpella.com/carbon_html/carbon1.htm

However it does not seem that carbon rods of any guaranteed purity are very
easy to find, I might have to order the above.

Of course you could always put a strong neodymium magnet near a suspended
carbon rod and see if it is visibly attracted, if so you know it's got iron in
it, of course repulsion from the magnet which would still be difficult does not
mean there is no iron, just very very little.


John Berry

Scott Little wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> >How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF
> >only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to
> >chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what
> >they do.)
>
> You get a 1-2 cm dia analysis spot and penetration depth depends upon the
> element and the matrix.  For Fe in a C matrix, you're looking at about 0.5
> mm depth, which is actually pretty good.  The rod would have to be rather
> heterogeneous for that not to be adequate.  In my experience, most
> "manufactured" items such as this are sufficiently homogeneous to permit
> good analysis via XRF.  Of course, there are exceptions.  For example, if
> the Fe in the carbon was present as small metallic pieces broken off from
> some grinding apparatus...that would make XRF not such a good choice.  But,
> then you would discover that when you surveyed the rod for Fe...there would
> be hot spots.
>
> >Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you
> >what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:
> >
> >http://www.niton.com/800.html
>
> Those guys are serious competition for the company I used to work for:
>
> http://www.spectrace.com/9000.htm  (I designed the probe that you see in
> that photo).
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Scientists discover possible microbe from space
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>Jed Rothwell wrote;
>
>Some people suggest that the process which gave rise to life may 
>have occurred rarely. I find this impossible to imagine. Conditions 
>in lifeless stagnant pools of ocean water will be uniform throughout 
>the world, and fairly simple, and the same combination of heat, 
>light, and wave action will effect trillions of such pools. Unless 
>life can only spring forth in an anaerobic environment, the same 
>conditions that gave rise to the first cells probably occur 
>everywhere today, just as they did 4 billion years ago. I suppose 
>fragile proto-cells or unshielded strands of DNA originate 
>frequently, but existing life overwhelms and eats them up. A 
>proto-cell can only survive on an empty planet.

Panspermia is a copout. the assumption that the "proto-cell" would be 
attacked by advanced forms of life makes sense. What makes on sense 
to me is what I call the spark in the pond hypothesis for the origin 
of life. You might as well tell me that a tornado tore though a junk 
yard and a 747 flew out. Preposterous? of course, and how many orders 
of magnitude more complicated is the web of life?


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:43:54 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Jed,

Earth originated and exported life hypothesizes and scenarios are mixable, IMO. They (may) had occurred simultaneously or separately in various places and stages of Earth history. I am agree that Earth conditions are very favorable to create it own life, 
but you can not rule out the exported life hypothesis, despite it is a slim chance of exported life could find favorable conditions to be hosted on Earth. But we just dont know the population and diversity of et organisms, although collected moon soil sam
ples may give an upper limit for them.

In general, to figure out, in various criteria, the relation of earth and outer space, I thought the outer space is just a scaled up (in space and time dimensions) environment of earth, having similar dynamic, and and rules.  It is possible to guess what 
happening in outer space by observing earth. 

Space appears little deserted ,sparely populated around our solar system, because we are actually located near the outer edge of our galaxy. However, close to the galaxy center, things are (would be) dramatically different, there is lot of energy around, 
sky is always illuminated by dense stellar population, lot of interstellar gases and complex molecules, stars are interacting frequently, causing planetary orbit disturbances, collisions should often in any scale. So the central regions are like city cent
er compared to isolated island is our solar system. In central regions, may planets are not allowed to evolve their own species, always invaded from outside. An other factor to decrease to evolution of local life would be the short time scale, I mean aver
age time window for planets evolve life would be narrow, not as billions of years like earth, but less than a billion. (Hazards exterminating life on planets would be often, may close stellar explosions, gamma ray bursts would!
 sterilize planets. They may also sterilize the space, limiting the spread.) Central region biologic activities would also increase the chance our solar system  meet the et life. I mean possibility of encountering organism originated from central region w
ould exceed the ones originating from neighboring stars.

> That theory drives me nuts! I really hate it, because it muddies up the
> discussion and leads nowhere. It is unproductive and cannot be falsified.
> Suppose, for the sake of argument, that life on Earth originated from an
> outer space "seed" -- either a naturally occurring seed or one sent by an
> intelligent species. That only begs the question! It pushes the origin of
> life off to some other planet at some earlier date. At some point, on some
> planet, life had to emerge from purely natural causes.

Sure, but rethink this process in a densely populated stellar region. It may better to describe it as collaboration of stars to evolve the life, as organisms would need to migrate while the host become unlivable, or destroyed. It would be interesting to c
onsider that host planets would not be only threaten by explosions, gravitational disturbances, debris, "inorganic processes"  but also by primitive organisms and by evolved organisms like humans, as just we practicing it.

So if inter-stellar environment is required for continuity of life on late stages, why it is not playing role in first stages?

> Some people suggest that the process which gave rise to life may have
> occurred rarely. I find this impossible to imagine. Conditions in lifeless
> stagnant pools of ocean water will be uniform throughout the world, and
> fairly simple, and the same combination of heat, light, and wave action
> will effect trillions of such pools. Unless life can only spring forth in
> an anaerobic environment, the same conditions that gave rise to the first
> cells probably occur everywhere today, just as they did 4 billion years
> ago. I suppose fragile proto-cells or unshielded strands of DNA originate
> frequently, but existing life overwhelms and eats them up. A proto-cell can
> only survive on an empty planet.

Yes, you are right. However I considering this also on upper, cosmic scale.

Interesting perspective is rising there:

In very primitive stage, organisms may not allow newcomers or less primitive ones.
Later, organisms learn to exist together and form dependencies. This reflect current state of the world, excluding human dominance. (I hope it would be not be called later as "human catastrophe")
Maybe and hopefully, as species evolves and gain consciousness, they would more care other species, trying to save them instead of exterminating them. mankind practicing the contrary historically, destroy nature friendly cultures first, then species start
ing most evolved ones to the lower.

Anyway, if we exclude mankind, we may expect more dependency and collaboration between species as evolves.
Otherwise, if this is not the tendency, mankind will be destroyed eventually by more evolved species somewhere in our galaxy.

Will human destruction stop? I guess no. Humans tend isolate themselves from nature, decreasing dependencies. It may ends with inorganic form of life, robotics kind, living on environments void of organic life.


I had found the origin of the news at http://enn.com/extras/printer-friendly.asp?storyid=40377


Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Date: 30 Nov 00 01:10:49 EST
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Here is a nice piece of trivia that has caused major flamewar on another
list.

Please post your replies directly to the list and not privately to me.
If you decide to take it on, I'd like to suggest writing a justification for
your answer for others to ponder.

Enjoy,
Horace


>>>
Which quantity is primarily conserved by the Lenz Law in an ideal coil ?
(Do not include secondary quantities that appear to be conserved as a result
of conserving the primary quantity)

a)	electric current in the coil
b)	total magnetic flux through the coil
c)	average magnetic field density in the coil (B)
d)	magnetic field strength in the coil (H)
e)	magnetic vector potential of the coil (A)
f)	magnetomotive force of the coil
g)	inductance of the coil
h)	electric resistance of the coil
i)	magnetic reluctance of coil�s magnetic circuit
j)	energy stored in the coil
k)	distance between the coil and any permanent magnet
l)	the shape of the coil




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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:34:16 -0500:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>I wonder if they also took into account the heat of formation of water,=
 as
>>D2CO3 combined with LiOD (The CO2 coming from the air)?
>
>Don't wonder -- ask. And tell us what else he says. See:
[snip]
Thanks Jed,

I followed your suggestion and his reply is attached.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: "Bruce Cain" <cain me.msstate.edu>
To: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
References: <mhcb2tskprga57nq5m5dpvjtkhg4n8haff 4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Carbonate Precipitates During Heat Evolution
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:06:40 -0600
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Robin,

I've attached  a MSWord copy of my Abstract on this unusual carbonate issue.
I'm still working up a final "full paper" on this, hoping to detail the
"chemical trail" that may account for the carbonate "dumps" which occur.
What's most unusual about my results (in addition to the large heat amounts)
is this co-precipitation of carbonate during heat evolution only.  The
strong heat signatures are not seen when the precipitate does not form.
[Aside:  My calorimeter is setup to be able to remove up to 500 W of power
while maintaining a constant output temeperature, and hence is not able to
resolve power levels below about 1 W.  Small heat generation events I will
miss entirely.]

Due to the strong "apparent" chemical source for this heat, I've been trying
to figure out "what chemistry" could possibly account for the heat.  So far
my "twisted path" has involved consideration of a possible
carbonate/bicarbonate exchange, driven by the presence of CO2 (open cell)
and the relatively high catalyst surface areas (both Pd and Pt could assist
this, and both my electrodes are large).

So far I've only been able to replicate the precipitation using small
"spining" amount of H2O2, along with temperature cycling of the cell.  This
"artificial" peroxide enhanced precipitation however does NOT produce much
heat (a few watts over several minutes) even when the total carbonate
produced is similar to my "real heat producing runs".

As far as I can tell so far, this "precipitate" problem seems to be a side
reaction which happens to be driven when the cell is otherwise producing
heat.  Not being a chemist by trade, however, I regard my conclusions as
speculative.  I would encourage other ideas!

On the issue of "water" you mentioned, I assume that you refer to heat of
formation of H2O (or D2O) from evolved gases (O2 and H2) which may recombine
on the catalyst surfaces.

[I seem to recall much discussion on this point on Vortex months ago.  I
think that in a closed cell, this would be a net-sum-zero energy exchange.
In my open cell, however, I can imagine the following:  the Pd gets highly
loaded with D, then NEW oxygen from the air is "somehow" entrained into the
electrolyte to "recombine" at the Pd surface with D.  In such a case, the
D2O fomation energy could appear as an energy source.  (Equivalent to
burning hydrogen which was previously stored-up in the Pd.) I have not
looked at this in detail, but my first impression is that O2 can NOT diffuse
through the electrolyte fast enough to "reach" the Pd for recombination at
this level of power.  But with my very active precipitation exchange going
on at the same time, perhaps O2 could diffuse "must faster" than normally
assumed.  (An anomolous diffusion coefficient comes to mind here.)  Without
additional instumentation (e.g. dissolved O2 sensor near the Pd at 60-70
oC), this possbility is still unresolved.]

If you know of ways to "attempt computation" of O2 diffusion rates in near
saturated electrolytes during carbonate precipitation reactions, I'd be glad
to hear your thoughts.

I appreciate your interest.

Regards . . . . Bruce

----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <Cain me.msstate.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 7:59 PM
Subject: Carbonate Precipitates During Heat Evolution


Dear Sir,

Jed Rothwell recently reported to the vortex group on the abstract of your
paper that was apparently not actually presented at the recent ANS meeting.
See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15375.html .
Though mention is made of the heat of formation of Li2CO3, I see no mention
of that of water. Please tell me that this trivial point was also taken into
consideration. (An electronic copy of the paper would be much appreciated).

Best Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C05A61.69E4BE20--


----=_hrub2t0rb614k4aqdl49fe2jjqdeof4niv.MFSBCHJLHS--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 06:59:38 2000
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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:59:04 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iron impurities in carbon rods
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001129115749.037eb390 earthtech.org>
		 <5.0.0.25.2.20001129120640.00c039e0 pop.mindspring.com>
		 <5.0.1.4.0.20001129104030.03825ab0 earthtech.org>
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		 <004801c05981$b916b420$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001129131126.037f00f0@earthtech.org> <3A25AD2B.410ECF26@ihug.co.nz>
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Graphite rods (99.9995%) without detectable Fe can be obtained from Alfa Aesar at
800 343 0660 or www.alfa.com.
Ed

John Berry wrote:

> I've have been trying to find pure carbon rods myself...
> I needed a pure carbon/graphite rods for their diamagnetic properties, when I
> realized the carbon rods I was using were attracted to a magnet I realized why
> things weren't working.
>
> I have not had the greatest of success but I did find this:
> http://www.tedpella.com/carbon_html/carbon1.htm
>
> However it does not seem that carbon rods of any guaranteed purity are very
> easy to find, I might have to order the above.
>
> Of course you could always put a strong neodymium magnet near a suspended
> carbon rod and see if it is visibly attracted, if so you know it's got iron in
> it, of course repulsion from the magnet which would still be difficult does not
> mean there is no iron, just very very little.
>
> John Berry
>
> Scott Little wrote:
>
> > At 01:44 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > >How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF
> > >only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to
> > >chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what
> > >they do.)
> >
> > You get a 1-2 cm dia analysis spot and penetration depth depends upon the
> > element and the matrix.  For Fe in a C matrix, you're looking at about 0.5
> > mm depth, which is actually pretty good.  The rod would have to be rather
> > heterogeneous for that not to be adequate.  In my experience, most
> > "manufactured" items such as this are sufficiently homogeneous to permit
> > good analysis via XRF.  Of course, there are exceptions.  For example, if
> > the Fe in the carbon was present as small metallic pieces broken off from
> > some grinding apparatus...that would make XRF not such a good choice.  But,
> > then you would discover that when you surveyed the rod for Fe...there would
> > be hot spots.
> >
> > >Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you
> > >what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:
> > >
> > >http://www.niton.com/800.html
> >
> > Those guys are serious competition for the company I used to work for:
> >
> > http://www.spectrace.com/9000.htm  (I designed the probe that you see in
> > that photo).
> >
> > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 07:50:24 2000
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From: "Scott Stephens" <Scott2 Mediaone.net>
To: "Recipients of PICLIST digests" <PICLIST MITVMA.MIT.EDU>,
        "LASERGROWERS" <buzz_ard2 bigfoot.com>, "vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        <sciclub-list eskimo.com>
Subject: Free access to online physics journal pdf's
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:49:50 -0600
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I found this on the Tesla Coilers' list:

"
Original poster: "B2"

Hi All,
    I have recently discovered that the Journal of Physics D is online
available for free download until December 22 at this site:

http://www.iop.org/

Go to the pink box on the far right and click on "Free access is just a
click away".  There is a short form to fill out.  Registration gives
temporary access to all journals.  I found out that they have a 1000 file
per hour download limit with a one hour reset, though:))...
"

Yes! 8^) but only until Dec 22. If you get your library to subscribe, loan
me your password 8^)
Tesla coils and TEA CO2 lasers and plasma and detonation shocks and vortex's
and laser velocimetry and...

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 10:30:11 2000
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From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:43:11 -0600
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Thomas,
If I recall correctly your 747 metaphor is taken from the book: The Collapse of Chaos, by Ian Stewart & Jack Cohen; which is a very readable book on the emergnce of order from chaos etc. They propose that the "meta rules"  that give rise to say  "wings" a
re the same for a 747 or a bird and they arise from the context of needed function.

The book provides an excellent thought provoking look at the limits of reductionist science.
Ron

On 29-Nov-00, thomas malloy temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote:

tm> Panspermia is a copout. the assumption that the "proto-cell" would be 
tm> attacked by advanced forms of life makes sense. What makes on sense 
tm> to me is what I call the spark in the pond hypothesis for the origin 
tm> of life. You might as well tell me that a tornado tore though a junk 
tm> yard and a 747 flew out. Preposterous? of course, and how many orders 
tm> of magnitude more complicated is the web of life?
 

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 10:52:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Free access to online physics journal pdf's
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>I had announced it here one month ego. (28/10) It appears the probability
of someone read other's postings is quite low.


I subscribed to the list a couple weeks ago. I should read more of your
posts anyways

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 10:52:51 2000
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From: "Scott Stephens" <Scott2 mediaone.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lenz Law Trivia
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Which list?

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace <horacex usa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, November 30, 2000 12:09 AM
Subject: Lenz Law Trivia


>
>Here is a nice piece of trivia that has caused major flamewar on another
>list.
>
>Please post your replies directly to the list and not privately to me.
>If you decide to take it on, I'd like to suggest writing a justification
for
>your answer for others to ponder.
>
>Enjoy,
>Horace
>
>
>>>>
>Which quantity is primarily conserved by the Lenz Law in an ideal coil ?
>(Do not include secondary quantities that appear to be conserved as a
result
>of conserving the primary quantity)
>
>a) electric current in the coil
>b) total magnetic flux through the coil
>c) average magnetic field density in the coil (B)
>d) magnetic field strength in the coil (H)
>e) magnetic vector potential of the coil (A)
>f) magnetomotive force of the coil
>g) inductance of the coil
>h) electric resistance of the coil
>i) magnetic reluctance of coil�s magnetic circuit
>j) energy stored in the coil
>k) distance between the coil and any permanent magnet
>l) the shape of the coil
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 10:53:28 2000
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:39:46 -0600
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>In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:47:28 -0500:
>
>>See:
>>
>>http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov00/propeller.hrs.html
>>
>>Quotes:
>>
>>First biomolecular motors with metal propellers can live inside cells,
>>Cornell nanobiotechnologists report


>Bloody morons. You can't control what you can't see.
>Talk about manufactured plague.


Imagine those little nano-bots swimming into your brains limbic area and
transducing to the neurons that mediate your emotions, through a
cellular-internet link to the govenment-medical complex. You watch the TV or
attend appropriate church services, and those little nano-bots make you feel
significance, awe, ecstasy, guilt and fear at the appropriate times in the
speach/sermon. Jose Delgado's dream of a brave, new psycho-civilized world
realized. The ultimate political tool to roboticize humanity. You know the
military is working on it now to inhibit the fear of soldiers. A weapon of
immense potential.

I can hardly wait. No more bitching about elections.

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 10:57:31 2000
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Scott Stephens wrote:
> 
> I found this on the Tesla Coilers' list:
> 
> "
> Original poster: "B2"
> 
> Hi All,
>     I have recently discovered that the Journal of Physics D is online
> available for free download until December 22 at this site:
> 
> http://www.iop.org/
> 

I had announced it here one month ego. (28/10) It appears the probability of someone read other's postings is quite low. 

Not only Journal of Physics D, but all IOP journals are free currently.

Regards, 
hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 14:14:46 2000
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines
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Scott Stephens wrote:

> >Bloody morons. You can't control what you can't see.
> >Talk about manufactured plague.

I suppose that is meant as a joke, but I would point out that you cannot 
see the molecules of conventional drugs at work in the body.


>Imagine those little nano-bots swimming into your brains limbic area and
>transducing to the neurons that mediate your emotions, through a
>cellular-internet link to the govenment-medical complex.

Well, we would first have to learn wa-a-a-y more about the brain. I suppose 
this would be more difficult than building nano-bots. In a Luddite frame of 
mind, you can imagine horrible future scenarios for any technology. Tyrants 
learned how to control people thousands of years ago primitive tools; they 
don't need nano-bots. North Korea and Myanmar are not high-tech countries. 
It would be a mistake to discourage development of a technology because it 
might someday be used for nefarious purposes. Nano-bots might be useful for 
controlling cancer and other diseases. I suppose it may be 10,000 years 
before we learn enough about the brain to control it, and by that time I 
hope we have found a way to control people who would roboticize or enslave 
humanity.

It is very unfashionable for me to say this, but I think humanity and 
civilization have made enormous progress in the last 300 years, and I do 
not think these science-fiction nightmares of roboticized people, automated 
tyranny, ecological disaster, or nuclear war will ever come true. I think 
the future will be more like the one portrayed in Clarke's "Imperial 
Earth." If we do avoid these disasters, much of the credit will go to the 
people who sounded the alarm and predicted they might happen, so I'm not 
opposed to making dire predictions.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 15:31:26 2000
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Subject: TEST....Re: Iron impurities in carbon rods
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	Dear Folks,

	Some of the first lab made diamonds were slightly magnetic due to
traces of iron and-or nickle and-or cobalt in the diamonds.

	The "Test" for these magnetic properties was to get a 1 or 2 foot
length of thread of very light string....and, using a tiny bit of 
"blue tack" adhesive, stich the thread to the diamond and then stick the
thread to a wooden book case or some other NON magnetic support.

	Then a Nd Fe B magnet is waved near the diamond... if the diamond
moved then it was deemed to be lab grown.
	GIA tested literally hundreds of diamonds for magnetic attraction
effects.

							J

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, John Berry wrote:

> I've have been trying to find pure carbon rods myself...
> I needed a pure carbon/graphite rods for their diamagnetic properties, when I
> realized the carbon rods I was using were attracted to a magnet I realized why
> things weren't working.
> 
> I have not had the greatest of success but I did find this:
> http://www.tedpella.com/carbon_html/carbon1.htm
> 
> However it does not seem that carbon rods of any guaranteed purity are very
> easy to find, I might have to order the above.
> 
> Of course you could always put a strong neodymium magnet near a suspended
> carbon rod and see if it is visibly attracted, if so you know it's got iron in
> it, of course repulsion from the magnet which would still be difficult does not
> mean there is no iron, just very very little.
> 
> 
> John Berry
> 
> Scott Little wrote:
> 
> > At 01:44 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > >How big a sample can you fit in the machine? The entire rod? Anyway, XRF
> > >only samples the surface, not the bulk, so to be really sure you need to
> > >chop up the rod. (Section it, grind it or dissolve it -- not sure what
> > >they do.)
> >
> > You get a 1-2 cm dia analysis spot and penetration depth depends upon the
> > element and the matrix.  For Fe in a C matrix, you're looking at about 0.5
> > mm depth, which is actually pretty good.  The rod would have to be rather
> > heterogeneous for that not to be adequate.  In my experience, most
> > "manufactured" items such as this are sufficiently homogeneous to permit
> > good analysis via XRF.  Of course, there are exceptions.  For example, if
> > the Fe in the carbon was present as small metallic pieces broken off from
> > some grinding apparatus...that would make XRF not such a good choice.  But,
> > then you would discover that when you surveyed the rod for Fe...there would
> > be hot spots.
> >
> > >Here is a company that sells a hand-held XRF analyzer that can tell you
> > >what alloy is in an oddly shaped object like a bolt:
> > >
> > >http://www.niton.com/800.html
> >
> > Those guys are serious competition for the company I used to work for:
> >
> > http://www.spectrace.com/9000.htm  (I designed the probe that you see in
> > that photo).
> >
> > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 17:00:55 2000
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Same post ....Radioactivity   (fwd)
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	I think we replicated in 1994..... a while ago anyway.
	As for bottom line:  It works.
	I try to post and let people know about every 1 to 6 months.


						John


	Report

	Please study and consider US PTO number.

	4,961,880   William  Barker.
        Inventor(s):        Barker; William A. , Los Altos, CA 

           Abstract:
     Accelerated decay of radioactive materials is used for
power production. In the method of this invention an alpha-emitting
 radioactive material is placed in a region. The region is selected so
that when a negative potential is applied to the region, enhanced alpha
decay of the radioactive material results.

=================

	My Involvement:

	A few years ago we called the patent agent for this patent and got
in touch with Barker and his brother.  With their blessing we ran a
verification of their work.  The results we got agreed with the patent
data. 
	The general idea is the Coulomb barrier is altered and 
radioactive decay rates can be altered.   All the nuclear math is in the 
patents.
						John Herman Schnurer
	PS:

	CAUTION:

  Save for the fact radioactive materials are used, and one should NEVER
work with them unless the control and skill levels are there, the process
is easy, simple and effective. 
	The additional skill level requires knowledge of high voltage 
safety, measurement of high voltage, measurement of radioactivity.
	Should you be interested in this work please contact me.  A kit 
can be obtained, not including radioactive material.   

					J. H. Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 18:08:16 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:06:13 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:01:58 -0500:

>Scott Stephens wrote:
>
>> >Bloody morons. You can't control what you can't see.
>> >Talk about manufactured plague.
>
>I suppose that is meant as a joke, but I would point out that you cannot 
>see the molecules of conventional drugs at work in the body.

No, it was deadly serious. The next step will be self replicating
nano-machines, then we have a nano-Jurassic Park situation. Just as life
itself "finds a way", so these bloody nano-machines will end up in all sorts
of places where they don't belong, and we will end up in a nightmare
situation inventing nano-machines to hunt down and destroy nano-machines.

There is a good chance that the human immune system would be ineffective
against such devices.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 18:54:12 2000
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Uh, I fall short on probabilities. :) Anyway this become an occasion for who missed the initial posting.

Please inform us about interesting papers at IOP.


Scott Stephens wrote:
> 
> >I had announced it here one month ego. (28/10) It appears the probability
> of someone read other's postings is quite low.
> 
> I subscribed to the list a couple weeks ago. I should read more of your
> posts anyways

:)

> 
> Scott

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 19:54:53 2000
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Earth calling Fred...
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:47:51 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi Fred,

Are you still with us? Email to your address bounces.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 30 21:03:59 2000
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Hi,

It just occurred to me that if in a toroid the magnetic field is totally
contained, then it doesn't weaken with distance, while the electric field
still does. This means that a toroid consisting only of electrons bound by
the toroidal field can exist because the total magnetic field attraction
locally can be stronger than the total electric field locally.
To it in simpler terms, electrons on opposite sides of the toroid (i.e.
separated by the major diameter of the toroid) will experience only mild
electrical repulsion, yet the magnetic field which they both experience and
generate is still at full strength.
(This can compensate for the fact that the magnetic force usually only
manages to equal the electrical force at the speed of light).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Hi Robin,

You might ask Horace or Vince privately to give him a call, I know he has
had telephone conversations with both of them regarding various different
projects, and they may have his home number.  Scott Little might have his
number, as well.  I don't want to think the worst, but he called me several
times, and his voice sounded pretty weak at times.  He's as old as my dad or
more.  I'd call him myself, but I never asked for his number.  Anyway, I
hope it is just a computer glitch.  He may have gone on vacation, and his
e-mail box overloaded or something like that.  Some ISP's will bounce mail
after a certain number of megs has been piled up, even if the account is
paid up in full.

Knuke


>Hi Fred,
>
>Are you still with us? Email to your address bounces.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject: Re: Same post ....Radioactivity   (fwd)
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>
>	I think we replicated in 1994..... a while ago anyway.
>	As for bottom line:  It works.
>	I try to post and let people know about every 1 to 6 months.
>
>
>						John

Hi John,

Mike Mandeville (the guy that wrote the earthquake book that we discussed
not long ago) also replicated this about the same time you did or a maybe a
few years before, I think, and also said that it worked.  We discussed this
patent in the very earliest days of the Vortex Group while he was still a
member.  He said he shopped it around for a long time, and was met with
stoney silence from all sides.  With former CIA head, William Webster,
brokering $150 billion nuclear waste storage facility deals in Russia so
that he can become a billionaire overnight, and the US State Department
selling them to the rest of the world, I think the chances of this method or
any other method of remediating nuclear waste being widely deployed for any
more than public relations purposes is about 1 in a trillion unless people
start demanding that their governments and the World Bank come to their
senses.  Quite simply put, there is loads more money to be made by certain
people by telling the rest of us that nuclear waste cannot be treated, and
by putting it into expensive holes in the ground instead.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm