From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 00:13:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25672; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:13:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:13:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:20:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Earth calling Fred... Resent-Message-ID: <"gH8d31.0.2H6.Rsr9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:16 AM 12/1/0, Michael T Huffman wrote: >Hi Robin, > >You might ask Horace or Vince privately to give him a call, [snip] Sorry, though I have talked to Fred on the phone, I did not think to ask for his number. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 00:13:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25744; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:13:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:13:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:20:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"-3ioV1.0.6I6.hsr9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:00 PM 12/1/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hi, > >It just occurred to me that if in a toroid the magnetic field is totally >contained, then it doesn't weaken with distance, while the electric field >still does. This means that a toroid consisting only of electrons bound by >the toroidal field can exist because the total magnetic field attraction >locally can be stronger than the total electric field locally. This is not correct. The B field on the far side of the torus from a given electron is genarated almost entirely by electrons on the far side of the torus. This is best understood via the principle of superposition. The magnetic or electric fields projected to the far side of the torus by an electron in motion is the same regardless of whether the other electrons in the torus are around or not. Since the magnetic (loop) field projects at about 1/r^3, and the electrostatic field projects at about 1/r^2, the electrostatic force overwhelms the magnetic force at a distance. The Virial Theorem remains intact. However, things are not so simple once relativistic speed electrons are involved. As I showed in my prior postings regarding the relativistic Planar Circle Current, lateral and polar forces of a 1/r^2 nature are created, which I termed "apparent charge" because they act like a charge that differs in magnitude depending on the angle viewed. However, I further showed the limit to the change in apparent charge is about 1/3, so if the Virial theorem is to be thwarted, i.e. ball lightning created, then there exists an upper limit to the feasible size of the torus that can do this. Smaller is better, and the suggested EV's are in fact small. That said, I should also say that, having carefully reviewed some of the patents and other work related to EV's, and having done some related experimental work, I can not see a strong basis (in the older literature anyway) for believing EV's exist. Like CF, I hope so, but personally I don't think EV's can be assumed to be real without much more work. The evidence for CF, or LENR, is vastly larger. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 01:47:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA15047; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 01:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 01:41:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-204-235.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.204.235] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A276A82.7E686401 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:08:19 +1300 From: Ernest John Berry III X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Earth calling Fred... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8piuT.0.1h3.v8t9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps or Fred-erick Sparber Assuming the former he has three email addresses that I know of: "Fred Epps" "Fred Epps" and an old one: "Fred Epps" If the latter: "Frederick Sparber" and an old one: "Frederick J Sparber" Horace Heffner wrote: > At 1:16 AM 12/1/0, Michael T Huffman wrote: > >Hi Robin, > > > >You might ask Horace or Vince privately to give him a call, > [snip] > > Sorry, though I have talked to Fred on the phone, I did not think to ask > for his number. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 06:46:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28732; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:42:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:42:28 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201093357.02da1a38 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:39:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Ken Shoulders' papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"m4UpH2.0.o07.KZx9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At the ANS conference, Hal Fox made some exaggerated claims about the work of Ken Shoulders. He said that Shoulders "has achieved, he claims, as much as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in." Shoulders denies this. He wrote, "what I intend to say in publications has been said in several of my papers. These can be downloaded from:" http://www.svn.net/krscfs - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 07:00:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22626; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:54:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:54:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 06:50:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: EV's To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A27BAC0.C882C956 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"Upjd6.0.QX5.nkx9w" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > .... having carefully reviewed some of the > patents and other work related to EV's, and having done some related > experimental work, I can not see a strong basis (in the older literature > anyway) for believing EV's exist. Like CF, I hope so... Did you study Shoulder's latest paper, "Permittivity Transitions"? It's a step above his other papers, but still remains, unfortunately, a leap for those who have not tried to replicate his experiments... Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 08:56:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11091; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:52:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:52:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:42:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <02f201c05af4$884f6ac0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Sr-R-3.0.Dj2.cTz9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: No, it was deadly serious. The next step will be self replicating >nano-machines, then we have a nano-Jurassic Park situation. Just as life >itself "finds a way", so these bloody nano-machines will end up in all sorts >of places where they don't belong, and we will end up in a nightmare >situation inventing nano-machines to hunt down and destroy nano-machines. Well, if that possibility occurs to you, surely it will also occur to the people who make these machines in the distant future. Perhaps they will have enough sense to build in limitations, such as those which limit the cells in your body to a certain number of replications. Perhaps they will have enough technical acumen to be sure that no "cancerous" immortal machines can ever come about. By the time people make these things, hundreds or perhaps thousands of years from now, their programming skills and other techniques will as far ahead of us as we are ahead of stone-age cave-dwellers. Not every technological nightmare comes true. People are not so stupid or so driven that they must always do every awful thing they are capable of. The U.S. and the Soviet Union never launched a nuclear war. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 11:01:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21551; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:46:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:46:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:45:27 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Fox upset with Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HBLK93.0.aG5.78_9w" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal Fox is upset with me because I have described some errors in his ANS presentation, and I have been bugging him for follow-up information. From my point of view, I'm only holding him to the same standards I hold conventional scientists to, for instance when they criticize cold fusion. If it is bad form for Robert Park to make incorrect assertions about cold fusion at the APS, it is equally bad for Hal Fox to make incorrect assertions at the ANS. Park may be lying, while Fox is innocently mistaken, but errors are errors, and they should all be retracted. An error that originates as a mistake might cause as much damage as one that begins as a lie. I do not see why we should give cold fusion supporters a free pass when they make make huge mistakes. Suppose I stood up at the ANS and mistakenly reported that Mizuno or Storms saw excess heat 100 times input, and they later denied that. My critics and friends would come down on me like a ton of bricks. I would be grateful to them all, and mortified with embarrassment! I would issue a retraction in capital letters titled OOPS!!! So why shouldn't Hal Fox do that? Why should he be upset with me? Anyway, getting to the particulars, during his presentation, Fox made two statements which I found particularly unbelievable: 1. That Ken Shoulders has achieved an input to output ratio of 1:100. As I mentioned here, Shoulders denied this. 2. That "Tom Bearden finally, after many years, has a working device which has been replicated at one university and is called a 'Motionless Electromagnetic Generator.'" Despite repeated requests, he has been unable or unwilling to tell me the name of the university or the researcher who performed this replication. Yesterday, I e-mailed Bearden himself asking for the information. He has not responded. I zeroed in on these because Fox seems to regard Shoulders and Bearden as leading experts, and because these are astounding claims, extremely important if true. I sent Fox the paragraphs I propose to publish in the magazine. It isn't nice to hit people with criticism out of the blue, without first giving them a chance to explain discrepancies or clarify their statements. Fed up by my repeated requests for information, Fox finally sputtered: "Your report on my efforts are demeaning, insulting and damaging to the excellent reputation that you have established." Actually, I think this will strengthen my reputation as an annoying gadfly who never shuts up and never tires of asking the same questions -- even when he knows the answers will never be forthcoming -- and who has more enemies than friends on both sides of the cold fusion debate. Anyway, for the record, here is my response to Fox. I publish it because it is not important enough for the magazine, yet I feel people should know about it. Hal: . . . your statements were not made during a casual conversation. You stood in front of a distinguished audience at a prestigious national physics conference and you made specific statements about experiments by Bearden and Shoulders. According to Shoulders, your statements were substantially in error. As a journalist it is my responsibility to report this. As a scientist it is your responsibility to retract those statements, or clarify them. To be blunt, it is very bad form for you to present exaggerated or incorrect accounts of experiments in a formal venue like the ANS. Your behavior harms your own credibility and that of cold fusion. It is even worse when you refuse to supply follow-up information. I asked you the name of the university where the Bearden experiment was replicated. If you know the name of the university, you should tell me. If you do not know the name, or you are not at liberty to disclose it, you should not have mentioned it during the presentation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 11:03:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26606; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:00:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell Resent-Message-ID: <"2Iv-t1.0.ZV6.DM_9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hal Fox is upset with me because I have described some errors in his ANS >presentation, and I have been bugging him for follow-up information. From >my point of view, I'm only holding him to the same standards I hold >conventional scientists to, for instance when they criticize cold fusion. >If it is bad form for Robert Park to make incorrect assertions about cold >fusion at the APS, it is equally bad for Hal Fox to make incorrect >assertions at the ANS. Park may be lying, while Fox is innocently mistaken, >but errors are errors, and they should all be retracted. An error that >originates as a mistake might cause as much damage as one that begins as a >lie. > >I do not see why we should give cold fusion supporters a free pass when >they make make huge mistakes. Suppose I stood up at the ANS and mistakenly >reported that Mizuno or Storms saw excess heat 100 times input, and they >later denied that. My critics and friends would come down on me like a ton >of bricks. I would be grateful to them all, and mortified with >embarrassment! I would issue a retraction in capital letters titled OOPS!!! >So why shouldn't Hal Fox do that? Why should he be upset with me? > >Anyway, getting to the particulars, during his presentation, Fox made two >statements which I found particularly unbelievable: > >1. That Ken Shoulders has achieved an input to output ratio of 1:100. As I >mentioned here, Shoulders denied this. > >2. That "Tom Bearden finally, after many years, has a working device which >has been replicated at one university and is called a 'Motionless >Electromagnetic Generator.'" Despite repeated requests, he has been unable >or unwilling to tell me the name of the university or the researcher who >performed this replication. Yesterday, I e-mailed Bearden himself asking >for the information. He has not responded. ***{J.R. Naudin has a replication of the device posted on his website, complete with detailed schematics and an output/input ratio of 5:1, as I recall. --MJ}*** > >I zeroed in on these because Fox seems to regard Shoulders and Bearden as >leading experts, and because these are astounding claims, extremely >important if true. I sent Fox the paragraphs I propose to publish in the >magazine. It isn't nice to hit people with criticism out of the blue, >without first giving them a chance to explain discrepancies or clarify >their statements. > >Fed up by my repeated requests for information, Fox finally sputtered: >"Your report on my efforts are demeaning, insulting and damaging to the >excellent reputation that you have established." Actually, I think this >will strengthen my reputation as an annoying gadfly who never shuts up and >never tires of asking the same questions -- even when he knows the answers >will never be forthcoming -- and who has more enemies than friends on both >sides of the cold fusion debate. Anyway, for the record, here is my >response to Fox. I publish it because it is not important enough for the >magazine, yet I feel people should know about it. > > >Hal: . . . your statements were not made during a casual conversation. You >stood in front of a distinguished audience at a prestigious national >physics conference and you made specific statements about experiments by >Bearden and Shoulders. According to Shoulders, your statements were >substantially in error. As a journalist it is my responsibility to report >this. As a scientist it is your responsibility to retract those statements, >or clarify them. > >To be blunt, it is very bad form for you to present exaggerated or >incorrect accounts of experiments in a formal venue like the ANS. Your >behavior harms your own credibility and that of cold fusion. It is even >worse when you refuse to supply follow-up information. I asked you the name >of the university where the Bearden experiment was replicated. If you know >the name of the university, you should tell me. If you do not know the >name, or you are not at liberty to disclose it, you should not have >mentioned it during the presentation. > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 11:37:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05674; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:32:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:32:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3A27EEEC.B07653B9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:33:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JtVZv2.0.aO1.Yp_9w" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, I agree with your approach. We all have a role to play and yours is to spread information while keeping people honest about what they say. If we in the over-unity fields are to make any process at all, we must be completely honest and never exaggerate our claims. Skeptics have too much ammunition already. Keep up the good work. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > Hal Fox is upset with me because I have described some errors in his ANS > presentation, and I have been bugging him for follow-up information. From > my point of view, I'm only holding him to the same standards I hold > conventional scientists to, for instance when they criticize cold fusion. > If it is bad form for Robert Park to make incorrect assertions about cold > fusion at the APS, it is equally bad for Hal Fox to make incorrect > assertions at the ANS. Park may be lying, while Fox is innocently mistaken, > but errors are errors, and they should all be retracted. An error that > originates as a mistake might cause as much damage as one that begins as a lie. > > I do not see why we should give cold fusion supporters a free pass when > they make make huge mistakes. Suppose I stood up at the ANS and mistakenly > reported that Mizuno or Storms saw excess heat 100 times input, and they > later denied that. My critics and friends would come down on me like a ton > of bricks. I would be grateful to them all, and mortified with > embarrassment! I would issue a retraction in capital letters titled OOPS!!! > So why shouldn't Hal Fox do that? Why should he be upset with me? > > Anyway, getting to the particulars, during his presentation, Fox made two > statements which I found particularly unbelievable: > > 1. That Ken Shoulders has achieved an input to output ratio of 1:100. As I > mentioned here, Shoulders denied this. > > 2. That "Tom Bearden finally, after many years, has a working device which > has been replicated at one university and is called a 'Motionless > Electromagnetic Generator.'" Despite repeated requests, he has been unable > or unwilling to tell me the name of the university or the researcher who > performed this replication. Yesterday, I e-mailed Bearden himself asking > for the information. He has not responded. > > I zeroed in on these because Fox seems to regard Shoulders and Bearden as > leading experts, and because these are astounding claims, extremely > important if true. I sent Fox the paragraphs I propose to publish in the > magazine. It isn't nice to hit people with criticism out of the blue, > without first giving them a chance to explain discrepancies or clarify > their statements. > > Fed up by my repeated requests for information, Fox finally sputtered: > "Your report on my efforts are demeaning, insulting and damaging to the > excellent reputation that you have established." Actually, I think this > will strengthen my reputation as an annoying gadfly who never shuts up and > never tires of asking the same questions -- even when he knows the answers > will never be forthcoming -- and who has more enemies than friends on both > sides of the cold fusion debate. Anyway, for the record, here is my > response to Fox. I publish it because it is not important enough for the > magazine, yet I feel people should know about it. > > Hal: . . . your statements were not made during a casual conversation. You > stood in front of a distinguished audience at a prestigious national > physics conference and you made specific statements about experiments by > Bearden and Shoulders. According to Shoulders, your statements were > substantially in error. As a journalist it is my responsibility to report > this. As a scientist it is your responsibility to retract those statements, > or clarify them. > > To be blunt, it is very bad form for you to present exaggerated or > incorrect accounts of experiments in a formal venue like the ANS. Your > behavior harms your own credibility and that of cold fusion. It is even > worse when you refuse to supply follow-up information. I asked you the name > of the university where the Bearden experiment was replicated. If you know > the name of the university, you should tell me. If you do not know the > name, or you are not at liberty to disclose it, you should not have > mentioned it during the presentation. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 12:34:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27331; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:33:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201145907.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 15:24:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell In-Reply-To: <3A27EEEC.B07653B9 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"GYRXN3.0.zg6.6i0Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Jed, I agree with your approach. We all have a role to play and yours is to >spread information while keeping people honest about what they say. If we >in the >over-unity fields are to make any process at all, we must be completely >honest and >never exaggerate our claims. Skeptics have too much ammunition already. On the other hand Hal is a nice guy who has done a lot of good, and I hate to hurt his feelings. I hope he forgives me. Skeptics do have too much ammunition. That is partly because we mix up controversial, unreplicated claims by Bearden with rock solid experimental observations by McKubre. I mean "mix up" in many senses: we mix them together in the same magazine, and in this forum. Other people mix them up, confusing one claim with the other, or they draw conclusions about McKubre based theories by Bearden. The skeptics deliberately mix them together to discredit McKubre, which is why he is anxious to distance himself from the magazine, I think. There is no harm in mixing up all these claims. It might lead to cross-disciplinary inspiration -- intellectual pollination with hybrid vigor, to strangle a metaphor. Mixing up a mish-mash is fine, but I wish people would remember which claim is which, which have credibility, and which are mere speculation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:06:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08457; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:02:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2814FA.D32E13CB ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:15:38 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: E=MC^2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E9vpM.0.342.x71Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dec. 1, 2,000 Vortex, Some weeks ago, I equated Einstein to the equation, E=MC(squared). There were some doubts expressed by some here that this attribution was undeserved since the equation had appeared earlier than Einstein using it. Well a similar question appeared in APS News of October, 2,000 in Letters. Caroline H. Thomson of Aberaeron, United Kingdom raised an opinion that there existed a problem with what APS wrote of 'Einstein's most famous formula' (of1905) in an earlier APS News and what Nature wrote in their '100 Years Ago' column. In Nature, they referred to M. Henri Becqueral's calculations which resulted, in the April, 1900 issue of Nature, to be E=MC(squared). In response, APS had no quarrel on an earlier appearance of the energy-mass-velocity relationship appearing even as early as 1881 in earlier studies. However, they quoted from a book "Inward Bound" by the late physicist and its historian Abraham Pais: "---the strength of (Einstein's equation relating mass, energy, and velocity) lies in their generality, their independence of dynamical details, in particular their independence of the origin and nature of the mass m. For specific forms of energy the relation E-->mc2 as v-->0 had already already been known well before 1905. Already in 1881, J.J. Thomson had noted the energy-mass equivalence for the case of an electrically charged body. Shortly thereafter, the first theoretical E-m-v relation appeared, based on a specific model of a charged particle: its shape shall be a rigid little sphere, whatever, whatever its velocity. This was the model studied in great detail by Max Abraham, theorist in Goettingen." Interesting to me. I finally got around (lazy) to posting it here before forgetting about it. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:10:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09780; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:07:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Earth calling Fred... Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:07:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3n4g2tom0c61t8at47hggu19n18sg7c4q3 4ax.com> References: <3A276A82.7E686401@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <3A276A82.7E686401 ihug.co.nz> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA09710 Resent-Message-ID: <"-qHYV1.0.fO2.ZC1Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Ernest John Berry III's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:08:19 +1300: >Fred Epps or Fred-erick Sparber [snip] The latter. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:11:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10214; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:08:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:08:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A281668.64E97C4A ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:21:44 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 01, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S1FQz3.0.PV2.eD1Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Dec 01, 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:00:19 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 1 Dec 00 Washington, DC 1. WHAT THE HAGUE? Negotiations on greenhouse gas reductions ended in stalemate this week, with delegates unable to agree on how to implement the 5% cuts of the Kyoto protocol. The U.S. team wanted extensive emissions trading, and credits for forests as "carbon sinks." But European delegates insisted that as the largest polluter, the U.S. should make significant reductions at home. The city had offered free bicycle use for the eco-friendly conference, but delegates passed, whining about nasty weather. 2. NEW AGE MEDICINE: THE CELEBRITY FACTOR, A ROYAL PAIN. In the U.S. we are treated to Hollywood stars testifying before Congress on the benefits of alternative medicine (WN 12 Feb 99), which Congress supports at a level of $50M a year. In the UK, Prince Charles created the Foundation for Integrated Medicine in 1996. He is now urging the government to shell out 10M pounds for a 5- year research program in alternative medicine. However, a Lords' committee has just completed a critical year-long study of alternative medicine, detailing the risks posed by lack of recognized training, standards and research. 3. WARNING - THIS DEVICE PRODUCES ACOUSTIC WAVES. Just in time for the holidays, the British Department of Health is rushing out cell phone warning labels, taking to heart a recent report (WN 20 Oct 00) that recommends a "precautionary approach" to use by children, this despite finding no real evidence of a health risk. 4. FBI IN SEARCH OF "X" FILES. FBI agents expect to be sifting through the mud, snow and trash of the Los Alamos landfill for "quite some time." They're reportedly hot on the trail of the missing Wen Ho Lee computer tapes, said to have been tossed into a dumpster in Los Alamos' top secret X division. Nearby, another weapons lab has security problems of a different kind Sandia may need a new batch of guards after 14 lab security workers shared Wednesday's $131 million lottery jackpot. 5. ONE STEP FORWARD, TWO STEPS BACK, THE PENNSYLVANIA POLKA? The same day that Penn State scientists concluded that life on land originated 1.4 billion years earlier than previously thought, the Pennsylvania School Board this week proposed Science Standards that allow teaching of theories "that do or do not support the theory of evolution." Many local board members support the move, one proclaiming, "Our beliefs in Butler [school district] are pro-creationist." Written public submissions will be accepted. 6. SEEKING SCIENTISTS FOR A YEAR ON THE HILL. We can't promise who'll be president. We can assure you that spending a year in a Congressional office is worthwhile and memorable. Application deadline for the APS Congressional Science Fellowship is 15 Jan 01, details at http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/fellow.html. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:22:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14579; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:19:31 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ATP powered virus-scale machines Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:18:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <02f201c05af4$884f6ac0$c3c01d18@pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534 Status: O X-Status: .00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA14527 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tdxmo2.0.jZ3.ZN1Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:42:38 -0500: [snip] >Not every technological nightmare comes true. People are not so stupid or >so driven that they must always do every awful thing they are capable of. >The U.S. and the Soviet Union never launched a nuclear war. > >- Jed Yet (I know the SU no longer exists). And that's about the only exception I can think of. I'm just feebly trying to head off, at least this act of mass stupidity, at the pass. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:23:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12324; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:15:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:15:18 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV's Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:14:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA12213 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jz7Oe.0.R03.YJ1Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:20:15 -0900: >At 4:00 PM 12/1/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>Hi, >> >>It just occurred to me that if in a toroid the magnetic field is totally >>contained, then it doesn't weaken with distance, while the electric field >>still does. This means that a toroid consisting only of electrons bound by >>the toroidal field can exist because the total magnetic field attraction >>locally can be stronger than the total electric field locally. > > >This is not correct. The B field on the far side of the torus from a given >electron is genarated almost entirely by electrons on the far side of the >torus. I see no reason why all electrons should not contribute equally to the field which is contained completely within the torus, and hence not divergent, while the electric field does diverge. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 13:31:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16949; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:27:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:27:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:26:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA16875 Resent-Message-ID: <"U9yEC3.0.l84.0V1Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:00:14 -0600: [snip] >***{J.R. Naudin has a replication of the device posted on his website, >complete with detailed schematics and an output/input ratio of 5:1, as I >recall. --MJ}*** [snip] It has also been previously reported that there are likely measurement errors with this replication, as you can see for yourself, if you take into account that the load resistor is 100k. (The series 10 ohm resistor is for current measurement purposes only). If you believe the current and voltage measurements, then the load resistor would appear to be 10k. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 14:07:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32358; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:05:09 -0800 From: RiskRraven aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:04:28 EST Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 115 Resent-Message-ID: <"f8f183.0.Uv7.K22Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: << ***{J.R. Naudin has a replication of the device posted on his website, complete with detailed schematics and an output/input ratio of 5:1, as I recall. --MJ}*** >> Hi all, I'm new. I'd like to point out that JL has achieved a COP of 8.0 with his latest MEG. Ed Scanlan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 14:19:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20817; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:13:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:13:26 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 01, 2000] Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 09:11:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A281668.64E97C4A ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3A281668.64E97C4A ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA20742 Resent-Message-ID: <"ckiYq.0.755.3A2Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:21:44 -0800: [snip] >a dumpster in Los Alamos' top secret X division. Nearby, another >weapons lab has security problems of a different kind Sandia >may need a new batch of guards after 14 lab security workers >shared Wednesday's $131 million lottery jackpot. [snip] Well, at least now we know who is working on timetravel ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 15:02:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25329; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:58:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:58:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201163053.00c2de10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 17:58:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: An unfashionable paean to technology In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <02f201c05af4$884f6ac0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cDeKb.0.cB6.Pq2Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:42:38 -0500: >[snip] > >Not every technological nightmare comes true. People are not so stupid or > >so driven that they must always do every awful thing they are capable of. > >The U.S. and the Soviet Union never launched a nuclear war. > > > >- Jed >Yet (I know the SU no longer exists). And that's about the only exception I >can think of. I can think of many more! In the last 300 years we might have wiped out hundreds of species of North American birds by overhunting and by the use of DDT and other chemicals. But we didn't. Starting in 1690, laws were established to protect endangered species and set limits to hunting seasons, and so far we have lost only seven species and three subspecies. (That's 1690, not 1960 as some misnamed "conservatives" would have you believe. I am a true conservative: I believe in conserving things like bird species.) We might have built highways through some beautiful neighborhood to Washington D.C. -- roads which were planned and shown on the maps -- but we didn't. We might have built fusion powered airplanes in the 1950s, or fusion bomb powered rocket ships, but those ideas were shelved. There are many other examples, but they are obscure, because people do not keep detailed records of boneheaded projects, destructive technologies strangled in the crib, and failed product introductions. History books and corporate web pages describe triumphs more often than failures. The IBM web site probably does not mention the infamous PCjr or OS/2. Not only were many perverse & dangerous technologies never developed in the first place, but countless others have been done away with. Sometimes people fought to preserve these old technologies. It took an act of Congress to force the railroads to replace their car coupling system, which dismembered thousands of workers. After the Titanic disaster, the North Atlantic transportation companies fought tooth and nail to prevent reforms, but Congress forced them to carry enough lifeboats for all passengers and to station a radio operator on duty 24 hours a day. Perverse people sometimes oppose reforms that will help their own industry, but more often, enlightened industry leaders go along with such reforms. Usually, their own experts propose the changes in the first place. Anyone who is seen Atlanta traffic knows that we are still making idiotic, destructive technology. If we do not stop the present trends, in 30 years we will be living in Hell. We have already paid an awful price -- and gotten nothing in return! Far more work, innovation and expense will be needed before society achieves a stable, sustainable lifestyle for all citizens. Yet anyone who has lived long enough, or studied history, will know that things used to be much worse, and the trend toward destruction was more drastic. Ninety years ago conditions in factories, on board ships, and in slum neighborhoods were unimaginably grim, and people were saying they should give up cutting Christmas trees because the forests were rapidly being denuded. A technically knowledgeable, realistic person must be alarmed by present conditions, yet at the same time he should be optimistic, knowing how bad things once were, and how easily many of our problems could be solved, if we could motivate people to solve them. Mankind has made so much progress, and done away with so many dreadful institutions and technologies. Why should anyone think we will stop here? Why will we continue to put up with things like mindless suburban sprawl and brutal warfare, when even now a technically savvy person can envision ways to get rid of them? Given the progress in medicine, and our control over things like the bipolar (manic-depressive) syndrome, who can doubt that we will eventually find ways to control addiction to heroin, tobacco and alcohol? It may take decades or centuries, but eventually these scourges will be eliminated. I do not think we will ever live in Utopia, but we will asymptotically approach it. Remember that 99.99% of the people living in the year 1600 would consider our world and our lifestyle, our kitchens, grocery stores, and hospitals to be Heaven on Earth. Only the richest people enjoyed a level of comfort and security that most of us take for granted. For that matter, anyone who has lived in Japan in summer will know how wonderful U.S. sewage and septic systems are, and how much they promote happiness, health and well being. People who have never lived without modern technology cannot appreciate it, and cannot have a feel for how far we have progressed. Those who do not know the past cannot envision a better future; they have the illusion that we are stuck in unchanging stasis. Or worse, they have the romantic illusion that the past was a golden era and things are getting worse. They are the pessimists. Those who have lived with old technology, even briefly, will know why we should be thankful and optimistic. That is one the reasons I choose to live several weeks a year in houses with no sewage, telephones, televisions, or central heating. As for people who think the past was a golden era, I wish they could spend one day with a serious illness in a hospital circa 1800. That would cure 'em! They would come back and WORSHIP modern civilization. For that matter, I would like the have one of them clean up our outhouse. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 15:13:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23447; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:12:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:12:43 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:19:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"KvcVO.0.Hk5.g13Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:50 AM 12/1/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Did you study Shoulder's latest paper, "Permittivity Transitions"? It's a step >above his other papers, but still remains, unfortunately, a leap for those who >have not tried to replicate his experiments... No, I haven't. I was a bit too discourged by the previous stuff to look further, and am way too busy at the moment to look into much of anything new. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 15:14:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23095; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:12:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:12:29 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:19:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"bzdd91.0.ne5.S13Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:14 AM 12/2/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I see no reason why all electrons should not contribute equally to the field >which is contained completely within the torus, and hence not divergent, >while the electric field does diverge. Then I suggest you either do not believe in or cannot see how superposition works. By the principle of superposition, the fields from any charged particle are independently added to form a composite field. If you remove a given particle (electron in this case) from the whole, then you decrement the composite field by the removed particle's field. The far side of a large torus is relatively unaffected magnetically. The fact that the superpositioned fields cancel outside the torus, thus apparently confining all the magnetic field inside the torus, does not guarantee that the remaining composite field inside the torus is contributed to equally at all points by each of the electrons. It seems to bme that a valid test of the principle is to add or delete some charge, theoretically, and experimentally, and see what happens. This might be achieved in a wire torus model by simply expanding the wire spacing at one end of the torus. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 15:32:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25764; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:19:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:19:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201180028.00c2a4d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:19:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fox upset with Rothwell In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"w7Do91.0.NI6.j73Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >2. That "Tom Bearden finally, after many years, has a working device which > >has been replicated at one university and is called a 'Motionless > >Electromagnetic Generator.'" Despite repeated requests, he has been unable > >or unwilling to tell me the name of the university or the researcher who > >performed this replication. Yesterday, I e-mailed Bearden himself asking > >for the information. He has not responded. > >***{J.R. Naudin has a replication of the device posted on his website, >complete with detailed schematics and an output/input ratio of 5:1, as I >recall. --MJ}*** I do not think this is the "university" that Hal Fox had in mind. If there is a university (and this is not Hal's misunderstanding), Naudin may be replication #2. Although as Robin pointed out, many people have doubts about Naudin's claims. I do not want to give the impression that I oppose Bearden, or that I think it would be a bad idea for someone to replicate him. Naturally, I hope his machine works. That is why I want to talk to the researcher at the University who supposedly replicated him. I object to Hal's presentation because it is was inappropriate and unprofessional to describe hearsay, secret research which cannot be openly examined by all, or anonymous experiments in a formal venue like the ANS. I have no objection to people discussing such things here! >Quote of the month: >"Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that >voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in >precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From that, we can conclude that people who vote Democratic are very concerned with crime & drug abuse, since they are the principal victims, and they live side by side with criminals. They are big supporters of the police, who are the most effective social workers in poor neighborhoods. That is how it works where I live, which has a fairly high crime rate, Chinese gangs armed with automatic weapons, and lots of drugs. So, if you want effective anti-crime measures and more money devoted to reducing crime, vote Democratic. I doubt that is what Mr. Boortz had in mind. He probably meant to imply that the voters are likely to be criminals, but that is incorrect. Criminals seldom vote. The people they victimize are politicized, and they DO vote -- at least around here they do. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 16:17:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11418; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:14:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:14:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3A283EE7.91670BA0 groupz.net> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:14:31 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Question on your political comment.... References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201132244.00c0efe0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001201180028.00c2a4d0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TSFY72.0.Jo2.0y3Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - am posting this direct to you, as this is way off topic.... Your comment reminded me of something that I always wondered about.... A large percentage/majority (?)...of democratic voters are of lower income....I think everyone pretty much agrees with this....and they are the ones that have the majority of problems....that they would like solved by government.... What incentive is there, for democratic politicians to come up with permanent solutions...rather then bandades... to solve problems.....???.....a bandade appears to solve a problem initially, but often leads to even more problems... and in the case of democrats leads to more votes....when they promise another bandade for the new problems.... Republican polititicians, on the other hand...have an incentive to discover long term solutions to problems... as if they do, they take votes away from democrats.... This is not as true nowadays, as it was in the past.... because republicans are finally learning, that the people seem to want short term solutions...and the way to do this is promise them.... Please let me know if you disagree with this...or have any other thoughts as to why...in the last 50 or so years...of democratic control, there have been so few permanent solutions... thank you....steve opelc > From that, we can conclude that people who vote Democratic are very > concerned with crime & drug abuse, since they are the principal victims, > and they live side by side with criminals. They are big supporters of the > police, who are the most effective social workers in poor neighborhoods. > That is how it works where I live, which has a fairly high crime rate, > Chinese gangs armed with automatic weapons, and lots of drugs. So, if you > want effective anti-crime measures and more money devoted to reducing > crime, vote Democratic. I doubt that is what Mr. Boortz had in mind. He > probably meant to imply that the voters are likely to be criminals, but > that is incorrect. Criminals seldom vote. The people they victimize are > politicized, and they DO vote -- at least around here they do. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 16:20:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14046; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:19:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:19:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: An unfashionable paean to technology Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 11:19:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <02f201c05af4$884f6ac0$c3c01d18@pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001130164150.00bbe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001201111534.00c0a318@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001201163053.00c2de10@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001201163053.00c2de10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA13990 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fp-cW3.0.HR3.Z04Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 17:58:16 -0500: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:42:38 -0500: >>[snip] >> >Not every technological nightmare comes true. People are not so stupid or >> >so driven that they must always do every awful thing they are capable of. >> >The U.S. and the Soviet Union never launched a nuclear war. >> > >> >- Jed >>Yet (I know the SU no longer exists). And that's about the only exception I >>can think of. > >I can think of many more! In the last 300 years we might have wiped out >hundreds of species of North American birds by overhunting and by the use >of DDT and other chemicals. But we didn't. Hi Jed, You are correct, in that I took a narrow interpretation of your statement. Not every awful thing is done, however every awful technology is implemented (then sometimes later banned, once it has become obvious to all just how bad it is). I was hoping to short circuit the process in this particular case. And yes, I agree that life is getting better overall. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 16:41:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22841; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:40:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:40:51 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c05bfa$06158880$c678add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: New paper, last page Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:51:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C05BD0.1B698800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"cwx7H3.0.pa5.GK4Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C05BD0.1B698800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I have posted page 4 (the conclusion) of my last paper tonight. I = hope everyone enjoys it. My next paper in this series will deal with = manipulating the resistance in electrolysis cells. MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-4.htm ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C05BD0.1B698800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
   I have posted page 4 (the = conclusion)=20 of my last paper tonight. I hope everyone enjoys it. My next paper in = this=20 series will deal with manipulating the resistance in electrolysis=20 cells.
MJ
http://www.geocit= ies.com/mj_17870/paper1-4.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Click = here for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C05BD0.1B698800-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 17:09:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31716; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:07:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: <01b701c05bfd$d129b980$c678add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: Subject: Re: Question....please "... bT NATURE..." Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:18:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"chWbU1.0.Jl7.dj4Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thanks merlyn, MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Cox" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 12:17 AM Subject: Re: Question....please "... bT NATURE..." > I think he means BY NATURE meaning that the process is naturally OU. > Merlyn > > >From: John Schnurer > > >Subject: What is ".... bT NATURE ..."??Re: [jlnlabs] New Paper > > > > > > Dear Folks > > > > M Johnson writes "....how electrolysis is bT NATURE...." > > > > > > What is bT NATURE? What does bT NATURE mean? I have not read > >or heard of this expression. > > > > Please. > > > >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Michael Johnston wrote: > > > > > I have written a new paper showing how electrolysis is bT NATURE a form > >of OU > > > > > > > MJ > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 17:12:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10220; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV's Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 12:10:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA10152 Resent-Message-ID: <"T7HZ1.0.cV2.Nm4Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:19:32 -0900: [snip] >Then I suggest you either do not believe in or cannot see how superposition >works. By the principle of superposition, the fields from any charged On the contrary, I understand superposition quite well, and find it a very "natural" concept. The only possible exception being that there may be an implicit limit to the strength of a field that space itself can support, though I'm not sure we are anywhere near that limit yet. >particle are independently added to form a composite field. If you remove >a given particle (electron in this case) from the whole, then you decrement >the composite field by the removed particle's field. Agreed. >The far side of a >large torus is relatively unaffected magnetically. This is where we disagree. The lack of divergence in the magnetic field ensures that the distance from the source is irrelevant in this case, so removal of a single electron has a severe magnetic effect, but only a minor electrical effect where electrons on the other side of the torus are concerned. Or, conversely, addition of an electron has little effect electrically on other electrons that are far removed, but just as large a magnetic effect as it has on electrons that are close by. A more accurate statement would have been: The far side of a large torus is relatively unaffected electrically. The 1/r^3 effect that you previously mentioned is only true of a magnetic dipole, while a torus is really a magnetic "zeropole" to coin a word. At least for a torus where the electron current is perpendicular to the minor axis of the torus. In a torus where the current is helical, there also exists a magnetic dipole parallel with the major axis of the torus. >The fact that the >superpositioned fields cancel outside the torus, thus apparently confining >all the magnetic field inside the torus, does not guarantee that the >remaining composite field inside the torus is contributed to equally at all >points by each of the electrons. Perhaps you can show why this statement is true in your opinion? I don't think it is even necessary that all fields outside the torus cancel to zero, only that the field inside the torus be non-divergent (i.e. doesn't weaken with distance). >It seems to bme that a valid test of the >principle is to add or delete some charge, theoretically, and >experimentally, and see what happens. This might be achieved in a wire >torus model by simply expanding the wire spacing at one end of the torus. Doesn't this just result in the divergence of the field, thus ensuring that it can't work? I don't see what you are trying to test here. You can think of it using your spiralling field lines for the magnetic field if you wish (from earlier posts you made years ago). The point is that the effect of a single "field line" is not weakened by distance. What does happen is that for a normal magnetic dipole (such as a bar magnet), the lines tend to diverge out into space, so that at any given point in space far removed from the dipole, the density of lines is less. However with a closed torus (or even largely with two magnets next to one another with "keepers" in place), most of the field lines remain within the torus, ensuring no divergence, and hence no loss of field line density with distance (as long as that distance is on the torus). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 18:11:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22638; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:10:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:10:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3A288703.3125 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 21:22:11 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 01, 2000] References: <3A281668.64E97C4A ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bCI1P2.0.XX5.9e5Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:21:44 -0800: > [snip] > >a dumpster in Los Alamos' top secret X division. Nearby, another > >weapons lab has security problems of a different kind Sandia > >may need a new batch of guards after 14 lab security workers > >shared Wednesday's $131 million lottery jackpot. > [snip] > Well, at least now we know who is working on timetravel ;). Ackshully, I read an unsubstaniated post that said the reason there have been no prosecutions is because time travel is exactly what they were working on. And the accused threatened to expose the fact that nuclear weapons were not involved. Now that the Chinese have Dr. Ning Li, they will probably have AG craft within a decade. :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 18:52:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04668; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:51:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:51:56 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <22.e84d50f.2759bda0 aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:51:12 EST Subject: Naudin Load Resistor? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 126 Resent-Message-ID: <"k4xYW2.0.r81.CF6Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 12/1/00 2:10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > It has also been previously reported that there are likely measurement > errors with this replication, as you can see for yourself, if you take into > account that the load resistor is 100k. > (The series 10 ohm resistor is for current measurement purposes only). > If you believe the current and voltage measurements, then the load resistor > would appear to be 10k. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > In the photo at Naudin's site for the version 2 MEG, the resistor shown is a 5 watt carbon with what looks like color code Brown-Black-Yellow-Silver. The resistors in the photo of the version 3 MEG appear to be wire wound units with no color code. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html H2K Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 19:12:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10274; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:11:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:11:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:16:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Schnurer Subject: Hellow and rheRe: Boscoli/Cuprates/Superconduction/Fusion In-Reply-To: <19991006195848.14937.rocketmail web127.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sWIuk1.0.NW2.LX6Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, ronqhjjjjjjjjjja kita wrote: > I have always heard that "cold" fusion would probably > involve superconduction. There was the Japanese > water splitting experiment that involved rapidly > stirring copper oxide- as a candidate for overunity. > > This experiment was covered in IE a few months back. > > I was wondering if the deutreation to the copper > salt in the Boscoli process MAY produce a > superconductive effect. Bear in mind there > are organic and inorganic materials that have > MINUTE regions of superconductivity BUT exhibit > NO bulk superconduction for electron transport.. > ...hence useless as wires. > > Copper compounds....as with the original 1,2,3 > ceramic superconductors....still amaze me. > > > Best, > Ron Kita > Note: Non-bulk superconductors are determined > by examining Barkhausen noise as a magnetic field > slowly penetrates the small regions of the room > temp or better superconduction. > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 21:32:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19131; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:31:15 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 00:37:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Same post ....Radioactivity (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200012010702.CAA18003 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2Q65L3.0.mg4.Ya8Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Amazing. On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > > > > I think we replicated in 1994..... a while ago anyway. > > As for bottom line: It works. > > I try to post and let people know about every 1 to 6 months. > > > > > > John > > Hi John, > > Mike Mandeville (the guy that wrote the earthquake book that we discussed > not long ago) also replicated this about the same time you did or a maybe a > few years before, I think, and also said that it worked. We discussed this > patent in the very earliest days of the Vortex Group while he was still a > member. He said he shopped it around for a long time, and was met with > stoney silence from all sides. With former CIA head, William Webster, > brokering $150 billion nuclear waste storage facility deals in Russia so > that he can become a billionaire overnight, and the US State Department > selling them to the rest of the world, I think the chances of this method or > any other method of remediating nuclear waste being widely deployed for any > more than public relations purposes is about 1 in a trillion unless people > start demanding that their governments and the World Bank come to their > senses. Quite simply put, there is loads more money to be made by certain > people by telling the rest of us that nuclear waste cannot be treated, and > by putting it into expensive holes in the ground instead. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 1 21:32:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14588; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:19:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:19:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20001202051955.80.qmail nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 2 Dec 00 00:19:55 EST From: Horace To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Naudin Load Resistor?] CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4.03) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA14538 Resent-Message-ID: <"2BEg5.0.lZ3.zP8Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This enigmatic Rload1&2 resistor is a major omission that has been bothering me for some time. Just how much time would it take for JLN to post its value ? He cannot explain its absence with the lack of time since he does much larger updates of his web page periodicaly yet chooses to skip the updates of Rload1 and Rlod2. I have written to him several times in the past about such ommisions, and he replied but still chose to ignore my plea to post the resistance values. This correspondence is enlosed at the end of this message. Regards, Horace VCockeram aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/1/00 2:10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, > rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > > > It has also been previously reported that there are likely measurement > > errors with this replication, as you can see for yourself, if you take into > > account that the load resistor is 100k. > > (The series 10 ohm resistor is for current measurement purposes only). > > If you believe the current and voltage measurements, then the load resistor > > would appear to be 10k. > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > In the photo at Naudin's site for the version 2 MEG, the resistor shown is a > 5 watt carbon with what looks like color code Brown-Black-Yellow-Silver. > > The resistors in the photo of the version 3 MEG appear to be wire wound units > with no color code. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram Horace wrote: > Hi Jean, > > I did not intend to "spread discrepancy". > > This discrepancy was not so insignificant since I thought that the link's date-stamp was OK, but the article the link was pointing to was the wrong one. > > I had good reasons to think so because I have asked you in my previous message for the resistance values of Rload1 and Rload2 and expected that you will add them in your next update of the article. > > When I saw the date of the 'updated' article was 11-22 and the resistance values were STILL MISSING missing I surmised that I was not looking at the most recent article because you've made a mistake (but the other way round) > and that both dates were correct and the 'updated' article (10-24) was simply not linked up properly. > > Also nowhere did I mention conspiracy or the other stuff. You overreacted on this one a little (it's OK I know what the lack of sleep can do). > >snip> > > P.S. > Could you approve me for the Egroups: megproject list? With 15 members and 97 messages I am sure that all missing info is there. > > > > --- In jlnlabs egroups.com, jnaudin509@a... wrote: > > Hi Horace, > > > > Why you like to spread discrepancy on non significant details ? > > > > I have just forgotten to change the update date stamp in the header of my page ? that's all... Only because I need 48 hours per day at this moment and > > > > I need time to sleep ..... > > > > Nothing weird, NO conspiration, NO MIB's, NO black copters or hidden white cars....and all these kinds of noises which are relevents to disinformation > > > facts. > > This is only realtime engineering and experiments that I have always the pleasure to share with you. > > > > So, lets me time to conduct my research quietly and stay tuned.....Please > > > > Jean-Louis Naudin > > > Dans un courrier daté du 25/11/00 03:17:05 Paris, Madrid, horacex u... a > > écrit : > > > > > > > In your title www page you have the following link: > > > > > > 11-24-00 : The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG) with > > > detailled diagrams > > > > > > When you follow the above link you get to a MEG v3.0 article from > > > 11-22-00. > > > > > > Where is the article from the 24th ? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Horace > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 07:39:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03085; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 07:37:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 07:37:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:49:14 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: What Have They Found Now? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EYBuI3.0.7m.uSHAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Donald Savage Headquarters, Washington, DC December 1, 2000 (Phone: 202/358-1727) Mary Hardin Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA (Phone: 818/354-0344) NOTE TO EDITORS: N00-058 MAJOR MARS DISCOVERY TO BE ANNOUNCED AT DEC. 7 SCIENCE BRIEFING Imaging scientists Dr. Michael Malin and Dr. Ken Edgett from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft will present what they describe as their most significant discovery yet at a Space Science Update at 2:00 p.m. EST on Thursday, Dec. 7. Their findings are being published in the December 8 issue of Science Magazine. This science update will be held in the James E. Webb Auditorium at NASA Headquarters, 300 E St., S.W., Washington, DC, and will be carried live on Telstar 5, transponder 11. The Ku-band satellite is located 97 degrees West longitude with a downlink frequency of 11929 MHz, vertical polarity. Please note that, due to coverage of the ongoing Shuttle mission, NASA Television does not expect to carry this briefing, and two-way question-and-answer capability from agency centers will not be available. Participants will be: * Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator for Space Science, NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC., will be panel moderator. * Dr. Michael Malin principal investigator, Mars Orbiter Camera on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft at Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS), San Diego, CA. * Dr. Ken Edgett, staff scientist at MSSS. * Dr. Jim Garvin, Mars Exploration Program Scientist at NASA Headquarters. * Dr. Ken Nealson, director of the Center for Life Detection at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA. - end - * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second automatic message will include additional information on the service. NASA releases also are available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA. To unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to domo hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only "unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the message. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 08:07:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12353; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:05:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:05:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3A294AC0.71EA bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 11:17:20 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What Have They Found Now? References: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_K6fJ2.0.t03.6tHAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Donald Savage > Headquarters, Washington, DC December 1, 2000 > (Phone: 202/358-1727) Note the expertise of the participant listed last: > * Dr. Ken Nealson, director of the Center for Life Detection at > NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA. The announcement is on D-Day! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 08:44:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25364; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:43:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:43:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2953C8.5ABC bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 11:55:52 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What Have They Found Now? References: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"naso22.0.CC6.BRIAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's one person's idea (with Malin images): http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative10.html Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 09:19:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03184; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:17:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A292088.E44323CA ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:17:16 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New paper, last page References: <001b01c05bfa$06158880$c678add1 mikejohnston> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KKW1F.0.cn.HwIAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have posted page 4 (the conclusion) of my last paper tonight. I hope everyone enjoys it. My next paper in this series will deal with manipulating the resistance in electrolysis cells. MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/paper1-4.htm Dear Michael, I read the pages you link and have some comments. For this purpose, I have extracted the relevant paragraphs as follows: That this is true is obvious to anyone who has ever constructed a simple electrolysis cell. The "problem" then is that, when you operate an electrolysis cell, you are, by the very nature of the reaction, releasing from the cell double the amount of energy which actually enters the cell in the form of electric current. This input energy is transformed into and "stored" as the potential chemical energy of H2(g) and as a consequence of this reaction, to maintain chemical equilibrium within the solution, an equal amount of electric current is released at the anode. Faraday explained this phenomenon by calling the gasses that are produced a secondary effect (by-product) of the electrolytic conduction process. (Your description is not correct. You are not, as you say, releasing double the amount of energy entering the cell. The amount of energy entering the cell is the product of current times applied voltage times duration of time. All of this energy appears as chemical energy within the reaction products or heat within the cell itself. There is no extra energy. This has been demonstrated over and over again and is not in dispute. Anomalous energy only occurs when another process not having anything to do with electrolysis is initiated, such as a nuclear reaction.) After considering the data contained in this paper I have concluded that the reactions which occur in a primary (voltaic) cell and the reactions that occur in an electrolysis cell are identical except for the fact that in the primary cell the anode is oxidized and decomposes and in the electrolysis cell (using electrodes which are chemically inert to the action of the electrolyte) the oxygen itself is oxidized. Here then, is the explanation of the seeming "surplus" energy that we get from our electrolysis cell. Since the reactions in both the battery and the cell are identical, then, by artificially creating a potential difference between the inert electrodes with the supplied current, we are causing the cell to function as a battery with the oxidation/reduction reaction proceeding in reverse. However, since no actual current passes through the battery the supplied electricity is instead stored up in the H2(g) that is released. So therefore you effectively double your supplied energy by using that supplied energy to stimulate the same set of reactions which result in the release of energy in a primary cell. (This description is not correct. When current passes through the electrolytic cell used in this example, electrons are removed from oxygen and added to hydrogen. This process requires energy, indeed the same amount of energy that is released from a battery operating in reverse. No extra energy is created. The process is completely reversible except for that energy lost by IR heating of the electrolyte. This reversibility has been demonstrated by students in general chemistry for generations.) Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 09:32:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08773; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:31:20 -0800 Message-ID: <00a801c05c85$b5ed2fc0$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: New EV Gray video, book and e-group Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:31:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"iB-qt1.0.t82.d7JAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vorts, I just talked to Peter Lindemann over the telephone and he mentioned that his new video will also be reviewed in the Infinite Energy journal. It seems that the effect is called "electro-radiant" first discovered by Tesla. When a DC pulse arc of high amperage and short time duration occurs, this effect can be collected with copper collectors surrounding the arc going to an air coil to ground. It is also described in chapter one of Gerry Vassilatos book "Secrets of Cold War Technology" sold by Adventures Unlimited Press at http://www.wexclub.com/aup . Peter says to see the video and read this chapter 10 times. I have 8 more times to go 8^) Hope to learn more when the video arrives. There is also a new e-group formed to discuss this at: http://www.egroups.com/group/EdwinGray Regards, Michael Randall > Hi all, > > There is some new info in video and book format on EV Gray, Moray and Tesla > from Dr. Peter Lindemann > http://free-energy.ws/ > > Keelynet's Jerry Decker posted Peter's comments on these new developments at > http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/ > > Peter Lindemann, Tom Brown and Eric Dollard were Borderland Labs > researchers into the LMD (Longitudinal Magneto-Dielectric) and TEM > (Transverse > Electromagnetic) waves back in '86. Jean-Louis' replication of the LMD vs > TEM showed positive results > http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/warpzone.htm > > I hope this is of interest to you. > > Best Regards, Michael Randall > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 11:43:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17515; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:40:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:40:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-44.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.44] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A294888.803ECE2D ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:07:52 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Reality of magnetic field. was: Re: [forcefieldpropulsionphysics] A sort of story time in physics] Steven Rado's Aethro-kinematics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-8-hz.0.XH4.u0LAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As to what magnetism really is I haven't a clue. The following things I think about, note that a charge can not detect a magnetic field directly, it only feels the electric field created by relative motion to the fabled lines. (or an increase of those lines, as in the case of a transformer where the magnetic field does not leave the core of the transformer, yet induces a type of electric field or force outside of the core) And that magnetic fields don't exist in all reference frames (more specifically don't have to) as it is the relative motion to a charge that creates a magnetic field. (I think everyone got that, but to elaborate if you have a cluster of charges, lets say negative ions if you move relative to them you find a magnetic field that does not exist if you are stationary to them, and opposite to that if you are moving in the opposite direction) Magnetic fields a created by charges, Detected by charges, and felt (by the charges) as electric fields or force. Another apparent clue is that they don't seen to merge but two magnetic fields at 90 degrees do not create one magnetic field at 45 degrees but two separate magnetic fields, or so it seems if you look at saturation. I would like to know others take on any evidence agreeing or disagreeing with this one. The question that arises from the above is if magnetic fields actually exist at all except as a type of electric field. Though they sure look very real with two magnets and some iron fillings, but if you break it down what part of the iron atom actually aligns to the magnetic field? I'm not sure what the answer is meant to be, John Schnurer I'm sure you know more than me on that. It's either the orbital motions of the electrons in the electron shell, The spin of electrons in the electron shell, the rotation of the nucleus, or the spin of the nucleus. That being as clear as mud it doesn't help us much (and the less said about spin the better), but as I understand it all magnetic fields are said to be created by moving charges including that of an atom. And detected by other moving charges. (which as they are moving relative to a magnetic field see it as an electric field again) It seems like at most a magnetic field is just an intermediary which does not directly interact with anything but it's self (created by moving charges, detected only by relative motion, felt as an electric field or force, it's very existence in a certain area depends on your relative motion to the charge creating it), and might just be an abstraction, an illusion that makes an otherwise difficult things easy to understand (somewhat) as long as you don't ask the big questions. Above I just said that it only interacts with it's self, but there is evidence that what looks like interacting merging and bending might just be vector sums and addition. (two magnetic fields might not merge but actually be two distinct magnetic fields in the same space, only most things like iron powder will make them look like they have merged by reacting to both) I guess magnetism might be some spunup electric field where motion is needed to untangle it... Well I still don't have a clue what it is though, because even if the above is right, the question becomes "What is an electric field". Then what is an electron? An infinitely small point and infinitely large electric field coming from it? Note: I'm tired, confused, out of practice with writing emails, and I never was any good, and I'm on some antibiotics that are messing with my mind a little, so I'm sorry if any of the above is written wrongly of confusingly. And that's assuming what I'm trying to say makes sense. John Berry "c.h.thompson" wrote: > Dear John > > > I looked at the site briefly..... and went to the description of > > Magnetism. i did theis because magnetic fields are my main area. > > > > Steve Rado describes a "fan" operating in a pipe. > > > > This sort of sounds like ..to me .... lets us put together a set of > > mechanical models and explain things.... It may be pretty... but leaves > > me a little un satisfied. > > I agree. It leaves me unsatisfied for rather more basic reasons, that it > introduces a difference between north and south poles that I have never seen > anyone suggest actually existed. If you put two like poles together in his > theory, they are supposed to repel whether they are both sucking aether in > or spewing it out. Though he puts forward some faintly plausible arguments > for this, I can't see any reason why the forces should turn out equal for > equal pole strengths! > > But what is YOUR explanation of magnetism? I have my own private (or not > so completely private -- there are hints on my web site) basic picture, and > this is closely related to the nineteenth century one with little circling > currents. I do not have detailed knowledge of all the properties of > magnetism, though. What other ingredients are needed? > > Incidentally, Steven Rado's book was an inspiration to me -- I don't agree > with his aethrons, his model of the electron or many other things, but all > the same he presents some very plausible explanations for relativistic > effects and makes interesting suggestions about the nature of light. He > pulls to pieces the supposed evidence for the quantum. Though his ideas on > gravity may not be right, they may not be wholly wrong! He is at least > right to challenge existing theory. I suppose I appreciated his work > because it happened to be the first time I'd seen some of the challenges in > print. Here was a like mind! An intuitive model of the universe IS > possible. > > But what I'm really writing for is just to ask about your own model of > magnetism? > > Cheers > Caroline > c.h.thompson newscientist.net > http://www.aber.ac.uk/~cat > > > To Post a message, send it to: forcefieldpropulsionphysics eGroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: forcefieldpropulsionphysics-unsubscribe eGroups.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 13:26:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15246; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:25:19 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What Have They Found Now? Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:24:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA15225 Resent-Message-ID: <"X7pbJ2.0.8k3._YMAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:49:14 -0800: >Donald Savage >Headquarters, Washington, DC December 1, 2000 >(Phone: 202/358-1727) > >Mary Hardin >Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA >(Phone: 818/354-0344) > >NOTE TO EDITORS: N00-058 > >MAJOR MARS DISCOVERY TO BE ANNOUNCED AT DEC. 7 SCIENCE BRIEFING [snip] I predict that it will be nothing out of the ordinary, blown up to sound important, so as to extend their funding. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 13:44:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21684; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:43:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:43:54 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c05caa$83ff0d60$1f78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <3A29442A.5A75 bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: What Have They Found Now? Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:54:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"K3cUe3.0.kI5.QqMAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: mj agrees. hi robin! mj ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Re: What Have They Found Now? > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:49:14 -0800: > > >Donald Savage > >Headquarters, Washington, DC December 1, 2000 > >(Phone: 202/358-1727) > > > >Mary Hardin > >Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA > >(Phone: 818/354-0344) > > > >NOTE TO EDITORS: N00-058 > > > >MAJOR MARS DISCOVERY TO BE ANNOUNCED AT DEC. 7 SCIENCE BRIEFING > [snip] > I predict that it will be nothing out of the ordinary, blown up to sound > important, so as to extend their funding. ;) > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 14:22:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29534; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:19:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:19:35 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202170720.00c2c5d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:16:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Hal Fox: see Shoulder's patent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Rm3UI3.0.KD7.sLNAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How Fox wrote to me: "The [Shoulders] patent states about 30 times as much energy out as input. Shoulders told me he had obtained as much as 100. Perhaps he enjoys indulging in terminologic inexactitudes." I have not seen the patent, but I presume Hal got this right. I do not know what to make of this weird situation. It would appear the inventor is denying valuable claims made in his own patent. Shoulders told me very clearly that he has not seen such large excess energy. I asked him to describe the instruments used to detect the energy, but he did not respond. It would seem I owe Hal Fox an apology, and perhaps Shoulders does to. I wish that Shoulders would clarify the situation but he does not seem inclined to do so. Unless I hear more from him, I suppose this claim must end up in the usual morass of confusion. If he is seeing excess energy, and it is even greater than the dramatic claims in the patent, I do not understand why he would want to hide the fact. Perhaps he is suffering from a case of the inventor's disease. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 14:28:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31732; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:28:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202172013.00c25370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:26:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Response from Tom Bearden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"p38tl.0.fl7.qTNAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to my inquiry, I received a long response from Tom Bearden. He does not reveal the name of the University, but he does supply some information that may be of interest to the readers of this forum. Here is his response in its entirety. - Jed From"Tom Bearden" Dear Jed, The researcher who replicated the MEG was Jean-Louis Naudin in France. He obtained COP = 7.3 in his later (third) build-up after an initial success of COP = 1.3. We have obtained COP = 17 to 20, higher in some experimental build-ups, and we deliberately pushed one unit to destruction of the output coil, with the unit reaching COP>100 just before the arc-over and destruction of the coils. At the request of our patent attorneys and the university, we are keeping close the name of the university until their report is completed. But yes, arrangements have been made for the university's scientific team to not only test it, but to physically and independently replicate it from scratch, under U.S. Department of Defense auspices (the university team works on a DoD program in power supplies). The university scientists will build-up the replication to our specifications, but they will order the parts, wind the coils, make the assembly, and produce everything completely independently from Magnetics Energy Limited, to which the intellectual property rights are assigned. We are also arranging for independent testing by a government-certified private testing laboratory with an international reputation and with impeccable credentials (many of the large aerospace industries use this laboratory for certification testing on a great variety of U.S. government contracts). After observing the fierce dogmatic hassle that the orthodox establishment poured on cold fusion and on the institutes and scientists involved, you can understand why we are not releasing which university, which DoD agency, and which independent test laboratory. We are striving to do straightforward scientific work for review by openminded scientists, not by dogmatists. There are five persons who in combined effort invented the motionless electromagnetic generator (MEG). Beside myself they are Dr. Jim Hayes, Dr. Lee Kenny, engineer Ken Moore, and engineer Steve Patrick. These latter four researchers have worked very long and hard on this project, which succeeded only after nearly a decade of effort. As soon as we have these independent tests completed and the independent university replication completed and tested, we will have presented the scientific community with a validated, replicated experimental unit forever proving that electrical power systems with COP>1.0 are not only possible but feasible and practical. In short, if the present conventional theory disagrees with the MEG experiment once the experiment is independently validated and replicated, then it is the present conventional theory which must be changed, if one follows prescribed scientific method. To understand how straightforward it is to extract EM energy from the vacuum, I suggest that my several papers on Department of Energy website http//www.ott.doe.gov/electromagnetic/papersbooks.html be downloaded and read, particularly the paper "Giant Negentropy from the Common Dipole"-which has also just been published in Journal of New Energy. One should also read my paper on the DoE website on "The Unnecessary Energy Crisis" in order to understand that all the hydrocarbons ever burned, dams ever built to power hydroturbines to turn the shafts of the generators, and nuclear fuel rods ever expended, have not added and will never add a single watt to the power line. All that ferocious destruction of the biosphere has done nothing but force the internal charges of the generators apart, to make the source dipoles. It is the source dipole that powers every electrical circuit and every power system, not the shaft horsepower input to the generator shaft. Isn't it strange that we have all been taught to design and build only closed current loop circuits-which a priori destroy their source dipoles (and thus the inflow of free electrical energy from the vacuum) faster than they can catch some of the free energy from the vacuum and use it to power their loads! Until it is understood that all EM energy comes from the vacuum anyway, and specifically from the time domain as reactive power (electrical engineering term), then the operation of systems such as the MEG will make no sense to one at all, and in fact the mechanism actually powering every EM circuit and electrical power system will not be understood. I have promised Hal Fox to prepare an article for Journal of New Energy, describing the MEG and its general mechanism for operation, as soon as the independent testing and independent university's full replication are completed. Also, Dr. Myron Evans, a theoretician of much note, has completed an AIAS scientific paper which provides a succinct and rigorous technical exposition in O(3) electrodynamics of the MEG's "energy from the vacuum" operational mechanism. Evans demonstrates that the explanation does not appear at all in the standard U(1) electrodynamics, but does easily appear rather straightforwardly in the higher symmetry O(3) electrodynamics, which is a non-Abelian EM theory. That AIAS paper has been submitted to a leading physics journal and is presently in formal referee review. We briefed technical representatives of two U.S. Senate committees on the MEG and on overunity electrical power systems in general as part of our briefing (along with excellent briefings by Dr. Eugene Mallove, Dr. Tom Valone, Dr. Ted Loder, and others) and will brief again-more widely in the Senate and on Capital Hill-sometime next spring or early summer. At the next briefing, we will probably include a live demonstration of the MEG. Both here and abroad, we are actively seeking capitalization by licensing the non-exclusive manufacturing of scaled up MEG power units, while retaining control of our fundamental invention. In the not too distant future, we will scale up the MEG and see it manufactured by various licensees worldwide, with units going directly to the market place as real power systems powering real loads. The Managing Partner and Director of Magnetic Energy Limited is Dr. Lee Kenny, E-mail jlkenny lbtrltd.com. Lee should be contacted for all matters regarding the MEG program, program status, plans, investments, company information, etc. and for any further questions. Very best wishes, Tom Bearden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 2 17:59:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27019; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:58:25 -0800 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:53:58 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Response from Tom Bearden To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A29A7B6.364D8DDF pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202172013.00c25370 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"sWOpB2.0.5c6._YQAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex, Despite Tom Bearden's long and seemingly open response to Jed's inquiry, it would be foolish to take the bait and give these unsubstantiated claims much credence, no matter how much we might desire them to be true. I, for one, would love to see the MEG become reality because of its simplicity, but isn't this same flux switching technique that has been around since the 1940's ? ... and now we are supposed to believe that suddenly Bearden has dusted it with his magic incantation of "phase conjugation" and behold! it suddenly becomes OU. Give me a break. There are so many OBVIOUS unanswered objections and glaring inaccuracies, each of which could and would be put to rest immediately if there was a single OU prototype MEG. We can only assume that Bearden does NOT have a working OU prototype, despite his puffery. And this would not be the first time he has been caught with his knickers down. Not by a long shot. He has not answered the objection of Scott Little regarding his scope reading but Naudin's measurement errors are even more grievous. Yet there is one overwhelming logical inconsistency with Bearden's story. If there was a single self-running prototype, no matter how crude it looked, it is absurd to think that it would not immediately be put on the cover of Time, Scientific American, Wall Street Journal, etc. for the world to see. NO rational scientist or even dyed-in-the-wool skeptic, not even Park himself, would dare to question a self-running prototype. Bearden's bunk about discretion and silence, fearing becoming another cold fusion casualty like P & F has all the earmarks of this whole thing evolving into a soon to be announced "pump and dump" stock scheme. The last paragraph, in particular, is telling: ..."Lee should be contacted for all matters regarding the MEG program, program status, plans, investments, company information, etc. and for any further questions." He might as well say "don't worry about the nonexistent OU prototype, just buy the stock in our new IPO which by the way we have already arranged." Oh yes. The main thing Bearden forgot to mention is that Naudin has been trying for several weeks to go "self-running" and it just isn't happening. Naudin's site does show readings that appear to be OU, but he has not responded to several objections about his measurements, components, and in particular about using a power supply whose design was reportedly dropped by Radio Shack because it gave wildly inaccurate readings. On his behalf, he has not actually made the claim of OU and has also indicated that he will not make such a claim until he can go self-powered. Please, Naudin, make the damn thing self-running! In the mean time, I would be a little careful about that "Magnetic Energy Limited" IPO. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 08:59:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01754; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 08:43:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 08:43:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2AA51D.1F1 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 11:55:09 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: What They Found Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qw5d93.0.FR.eWdAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My source is another list: Source: The London Sunday Times http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/12/03/stifgnnws01001.html December 3 2000 WORLD Dried-Up Sea Beds Found On Mars NASA scientists have discovered ancient sea or lake beds on the surface of Mars that could once have harboured life, writes Jonathan Leake. The discovery is among the most significant concerning Mars so far, because such places are the most likely locations for fossils or other signs of past life. NASA will announce the discovery in this week's edition of Science with the suggestion that the next generation of Mars landings should be sent to such areas. This weekend a British group building a craft bound for Mars said it was already considering rerouting its vehicle, Beagle II, to land in the middle of one of the newly discovered sea beds. Professor Colin Pillinger, an astronomer at the Open University who heads the Beagle II project, will also announce that he has raised the full £30m needed for the British mission. He has just been offered £9m by the European Space Agency, with the rest coming from commercial sponsors. "We will launch in June 2003 and hope to land on Mars on Boxing Day," he said. The NASA discovery is based on images taken by Mars Global Surveyor, which has been orbiting the red planet for more than a year. It is said to have sent back detailed pictures of rocks that could only have been created by sedimentation, in which particles sink to a sea bed and are compressed into rock. ----- Copyright 2000 Times Newspapers Ltd. This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard terms and conditions. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 10:22:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28464; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:21:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:21:14 -0800 From: RiskRraven aol.com Message-ID: <60.9510ce6.275be8ed aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:20:29 EST Subject: Re: New EV Gray video, book and e-group To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 115 Resent-Message-ID: <"Auw5p3.0.ey6.NyeAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Inifinite Energy Magazine (volume 6, issue 34, 2000) has an article by Moray King which mentions the Sweet Device as a producer and container for charge clusters produced from fracto emission plasma (which I have no idea of what that is). At any rate, EVs and Gray's motor are described in the begining of the paper, and it also offers more insight into conditioning the barium ferrite for the VTA. Check it out if you can. Ed Scanlan PS-the original message this responds to is from the Vortex-L group, for those of you reading JLNLabs. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 15:29:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12055; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:24:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:24:25 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:31:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"FrfWt3.0.Hy2.fOjAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:10 PM 12/2/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:19:32 -0900: >[snip] >>Then I suggest you either do not believe in or cannot see how superposition >>works. By the principle of superposition, the fields from any charged > >On the contrary, I understand superposition quite well, and find it a very >"natural" concept. Yes, that I implicitly assumed, therefore ... 8^) >The only possible exception being that there may be an >implicit limit to the strength of a field that space itself can support, >though I'm not sure we are anywhere near that limit yet. An interesting concept to note. Perhaps there is some limit to the virtual photon density, or perhaps at some level of virtual photon flux the energy density is sufficent to create pairs and thereby diminish the local field, taking the "pressure" off. > >>particle are independently added to form a composite field. If you remove >>a given particle (electron in this case) from the whole, then you decrement >>the composite field by the removed particle's field. > >Agreed. Excellent. > >>The far side of a >>large torus is relatively unaffected magnetically. > >This is where we disagree. The lack of divergence in the magnetic field >ensures that the distance from the source is irrelevant in this case, so >removal of a single electron has a severe magnetic effect, but only a minor >electrical effect where electrons on the other side of the torus are >concerned. Or, conversely, addition of an electron has little effect >electrically on other electrons that are far removed, but just as large a >magnetic effect as it has on electrons that are close by. >A more accurate statement would have been: > >The far side of a large torus is relatively unaffected electrically. Well, if the torus is large, and the magnetic field is ~1/r^3, and the electrostatic ~1/r^2, then the electrostatic field strength is relatively large compared to the magnetic, but I think we are agreed on that point. As you say below, the crux of the disagreement is on the 1/r^3 nature of the magnetic field associated with the torus. Your position is that the field is constant around the torus and mine position is: to say that is to ignore superposition, and the nature of how the magnetic field scales in the tori. > >The 1/r^3 effect that you previously mentioned is only true of a magnetic >dipole, while a torus is really a magnetic "zeropole" to coin a word. >At least for a torus where the electron current is perpendicular to the >minor axis of the torus. In a torus where the current is helical, there also >exists a magnetic dipole parallel with the major axis of the torus. All magnetic fields, unless monopoles exist and are involved, are dipole in nature. You can see that dipole fields are involved here from the fact that in the ideal torus, where the current is in a toroidal sheet, the torus can be sliced into current rings, which are each magnetic dipoles. The dipole fields of the infinitesimally sliced rings can be summed via superposition to exactly create the toroidal field. > >>The fact that the >>superpositioned fields cancel outside the torus, thus apparently confining >>all the magnetic field inside the torus, does not guarantee that the >>remaining composite field inside the torus is contributed to equally at all >>points by each of the electrons. > >Perhaps you can show why this statement is true in your opinion? >I don't think it is even necessary that all fields outside the torus cancel >to zero, only that the field inside the torus be non-divergent (i.e. doesn't >weaken with distance). The flaw in you logic lies in the fact that, if you increase the major radius of a torus, the total flux phi inside the torus does not increase. If the flux of each current ring were being conserved and applied all over the ring (thus holding it together, as I think you implied) then the total flux phi would increase when the major radius is increased and the minor radius (and N*i/(incremental length around torus)) held constant. > >>It seems to bme that a valid test of the >>principle is to add or delete some charge, theoretically, and >>experimentally, and see what happens. This might be achieved in a wire >>torus model by simply expanding the wire spacing at one end of the torus. > >Doesn't this just result in the divergence of the field, thus ensuring that >it can't work? I don't see what you are trying to test here. Yes it does, but that is what superposition says. You subtract the local loops and you get a local bulge. Thay is very much on my point. The magnetic flux on the other end of the torus remains comparatively unaffected becuase it is all genrated locallly. You can not simply calculate the field strength on the other side of the torus by dividing by N1/N2. If you do finite element analysis (which is based to a large degree on superposition) you can see the the local magnetic field is generated almost entirely by local current loops. On the other hand, if you delete charge, then that affects the entire torus environment on a much larger 1/r^2 basis, i.e. larger at some distance. > > >You can think of it using your spiralling field lines for the magnetic field >if you wish (from earlier posts you made years ago). Yes, but that intellectual exercise began with the premise: what if magnetic field lines are "real" things - connected to the charges that create them. This idea, that field lines are toroidal balloon like structures attached to electrons, for example, results in necessary changes in the definitions of flux, etc. For example, the more a field line is stretched, the weaker it must become, unlike the conventional flux where a field line is always a field line. One of the advantages of the assumptions was that lateral repulsion/attraction of parallel magnets could be explained. Under my assumptions, the flux phi in the torus would grow as the major diameter increased, but the length of each field line must increase proportionately, thus diminishing the associated strength of each field line with regard to computing field intensity B. It was an interesting exercise, yielding more difficult methods of computation, as well as some improbable or impossible results. Also implicit in the assumption was that field lines cannot cross (cut) each other. I ultimately finally disproved that to myself by experiment. I'll have to see if I can dig up my notes on that, as I don't remember the experiment very well right now. I am way overloaded and busy of late, and remodelling and thus in a mess. Almost everything is stored ... somewhere or another beyond my ability to find it! In any event, this assumption that field lines are real things is wholly contradictory to the concept of superposition, which DOES seem to work on all occasions. Today I lean more toward thinking that the magnetic field does not exist at all, that it is merely a result of the relativistic effects of the electrostatic field. But so what, I'm just am amateur! >The point is that the >effect of a single "field line" is not weakened by distance. What does >happen is that for a normal magnetic dipole (such as a bar magnet), the >lines tend to diverge out into space, so that at any given point in space >far removed from the dipole, the density of lines is less. However with a >closed torus (or even largely with two magnets next to one another with >"keepers" in place), most of the field lines remain within the torus, >ensuring no divergence, and hence no loss of field line density with >distance (as long as that distance is on the torus). If we start with the inductance L of a solenoid having large major diameter R compared to minor diamter r, being identical or very close to a long solenoid, a fact well well known on both a theoretical and experimental basis, then we have L = (u0 N^2 A)/d where A is area oc cross section, Pi r^2 d is distance around major circumference, 2 Pi R and knowing that: L = (N phi)/I we have for both the long solenoid and the high R/r torus: phi = L*I/N = (u0 N A I)/d = (u0 A I) (N/d) This shows that, provided we keep the current constant, and keep the turns per unit distant constant (or current density j in the ideal torus) then phi, the total number of field lines contained in a torus cross section, remains constant. The field intensity cross section remains constant, on average. The only way the field lines contributed by the added section of torus can be added to the field lines all the way around the torus is if superposition does not work and the contribution of a field line to field intensity must be devided by length of the field line (thereby compensating for the "balloon stretch" of all the field lines trapped inside the torus, and concomitant reduction in width). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 16:22:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24839; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:19:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:19:59 -0800 Message-ID: <016e01c05d89$7e649e80$8a78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Damien's machine Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:31:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_016B_01C05D5F.937EA240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"hUTq02.0.z36.lCkAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C05D5F.937EA240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy device from the last Omen = movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a Van De Graff generator = sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was supposed to be some = new kind of energy device? um,hehe, I think I know how to build it.hehe I'm serious. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C05D5F.937EA240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
   Anyone remember Damien = Thorn's energy=20 device from the last Omen movie? That big thing that looked sort of like = a Van=20 De Graff generator sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was = supposed to=20 be some new kind of energy device?
um,hehe, I think I know how to build = it.hehe I'm=20 serious.
MJ
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http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
------=_NextPart_000_016B_01C05D5F.937EA240-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 17:46:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13525; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:42:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:42:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:40:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"GL5Rz1.0.EJ3.XQlAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My wife found this rather scary item: "Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" "Nine people have died in Pakistan from the Ebola virus and at least three others are sick in the first outbreak of the disease outside Africa. The highly infectious disease - that has symptoms similar to typhoid and malaria, but which causes massive internal bleeding and death in as little as two days - has been identified in Karachi, home to 10 million people. Experts fear that more cases may have been misdiagnosed and have warned that a massive campaign is needed to stop it spreading. Ahmed Rashid, Lahore." (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000252141601804&rtmo=psBIhpbe&atmo=99999999&pg= /et/00/12/1/wbul01.html#go2.) I realize that the mainstream American news media are blinkered as hell, but I would think they would be screaming their lungs out about this, if it is true. Ebola, after all, an equal opportunity killer: it slaughters everyone, irrespective of race, creed, political orientation, or place of national origin, and if it has really broken out into a teeming slum such as Karachi, there is a strong likelihood that it will now be impossible to contain, and will sweep the world. If so, it could easily make the Black Death look like a walk in the park. Therefore, I find the above item extremely hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas as to how this might be confirmed? --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 17:52:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15269; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:50:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:50:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20001203204953.007e03a0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:49:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Damien's machine In-Reply-To: <016e01c05d89$7e649e80$8a78add1 mikejohnston> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bvS4s.0.Vk3.uXlAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How? At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>> ArialHi all, Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy device from the last Omen movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a Van De Graff generator sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was supposed to be some new kind of energy device? um,hehe, I think I know how to build it.hehe I'm serious. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! <http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ <<<<<<<< From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 18:00:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18297; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:59:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:59:08 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c05d97$5b23eda0$b979add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:10:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"5dYbw1.0.pT4.hflAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, Thanks for this bit of cheer. Global pandemics are sooooo interesting at their beginning stages. West Nile Virus is on the move too. Happy Holidays! MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:40 PM Subject: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan > My wife found this rather scary item: > > "Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" > > "Nine people have died in Pakistan from the Ebola virus > and at least three others are sick in the first outbreak of the disease > outside Africa. The highly infectious disease - that has symptoms similar > to typhoid and malaria, but which causes massive internal bleeding and > death in as little as two days - has been identified in Karachi, home to 10 > million people. Experts fear that more cases may have been misdiagnosed and > have warned that a massive campaign is needed to stop it spreading. Ahmed > Rashid, Lahore." (Source: > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000252141601804&rtmo=psBIhpbe&atmo=99999999 &pg= > /et/00/12/1/wbul01.html#go2.) > > I realize that the mainstream American news media are blinkered as hell, > but I would think they would be screaming their lungs out about this, if it > is true. Ebola, after all, an equal opportunity killer: it slaughters > everyone, irrespective of race, creed, political orientation, or place of > national origin, and if it has really broken out into a teeming slum such > as Karachi, there is a strong likelihood that it will now be impossible to > contain, and will sweep the world. If so, it could easily make the Black > Death look like a walk in the park. Therefore, I find the above item > extremely hard to believe. Does anyone have any ideas as to how this might > be confirmed? > > --Mitchell Jones > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 18:19:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22726; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:16:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:16:32 -0800 Message-ID: <002a01c05d99$c9fc2ba0$b979add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001203204953.007e03a0 inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Damien's machine Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:27:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C05D6F.DE8FE860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"tFpBv1.0.zY5._vlAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C05D6F.DE8FE860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Colin, Well..... actually I just thought of this connection recently but it = all fit. At any rate in reading Michael Faraday's writings I discovered = that he used static electricity to separate water by electrolysis in one = of his experiments. He used the "spark" from an electric machine which = made electricity by turning a copper cyllinder/disk between electrically = charged pieces of rubber. So I thought wouldn't it be interesting to = build an electrolysis cell around the collecter/dome at the top of a van = de graff generator and use it as the cathode and an inert metal for the = anode and run the wire from the anode back to the ground. Then I thought = that you could perhaps "pull" electricity through an electrolysis cell = by using a van de graff to create a difference in the electric potential = between the electrodes by letting it pull electrons from the electrode = that you wanted to be the cathode and if you did it that way it would = look something like Damien's Machine. That was when I thought of the = connection. I don't know if it will work or not but at this point I = don't see why not... hehe, kinda weird isn't it? MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colin Quinney=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Damien's machine How? At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Hi all, Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy device from the last Omen = movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a Van De Graff generator = sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was supposed to be some = new kind of energy device? um,hehe, I think I know how to build it.hehe I'm serious. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ <<<< ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C05D6F.DE8FE860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Colin,
   Well..... actually I just = thought of=20 this connection recently but it all fit. At any rate in reading Michael=20 Faraday's writings I discovered that he used static electricity to = separate=20 water by electrolysis in one of his experiments. He used the "spark" = from an=20 electric machine which made electricity by turning a copper = cyllinder/disk=20 between electrically charged pieces of rubber. So I thought wouldn't it = be=20 interesting to build an electrolysis cell around the collecter/dome at = the top=20 of a van de graff generator and use it as the cathode and an inert metal = for the=20 anode and run the wire from the anode back to the ground. Then I thought = that=20 you could perhaps "pull" electricity through an electrolysis cell by = using a van=20 de graff to create a difference in the electric potential between the = electrodes=20 by letting it pull electrons from the electrode that you wanted to be = the=20 cathode and if you did it that way it would look something like Damien's = Machine. That was when I thought of the connection. I don't know if it = will work=20 or not but at this point I don't see why not...
hehe, kinda weird isn't = it?
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here = for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Colin=20 Quinney
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 = 8:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: Damien's = machine

How?

At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20
>>>>
Hi all,
Anyone remember = Damien=20 Thorn's energy device from the last Omen movie? That big thing that = looked=20 sort of like a Van De Graff generator sticking up out of the ocean? = Remember=20 how it was supposed to be some new kind of energy = device?
um,hehe, I=20 think I know how to build it.hehe I'm=20 = serious.
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------Click=20 here for Free=20 = Video!!
<http://www.gohip.com/free_video/>http://www.gohip.com/f= ree_video/

<<<<

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C05D6F.DE8FE860-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 18:55:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32587; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:53:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:53:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20001203215228.00a27800 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:52:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: Damien's machine In-Reply-To: <002a01c05d99$c9fc2ba0$b979add1 mikejohnston> References: <3.0.5.32.20001203204953.007e03a0 inforamp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"gr8031.0.5z7.gSmAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Are you going to build it full scale? I want to be there < Colin At 09:27 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> ArialHi Colin, Well..... actually I just thought of this connection recently but it all fit. At any rate in reading Michael Faraday's writings I discovered that he used static electricity to separate water by electrolysis in one of his experiments. He used the "spark" from an electric machine which made electricity by turning a copper cyllinder/disk between electrically charged pieces of rubber. So I thought wouldn't it be interesting to build an electrolysis cell around the collecter/dome at the top of a van de graff generator and use it as the cathode and an inert metal for the anode and run the wire from the anode back to the ground. Then I thought that you could perhaps "pull" electricity through an electrolysis cell by using a van de graff to create a difference in the electric potential between the electrodes by letting it pull electrons from the electrode that you wanted to be the cathode and if you did it that way it would look something like Damien's Machine. That was when I thought of the connection. I don't know if it will work or not but at this point I don't see why not... hehe, kinda weird isn't it? MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! <http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: <Colin Quinney=20 To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Damien's machine =20 How? At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Hi all, Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy device from the last Omen movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a Van De Graff generator sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was supposed to be some new kind of energy device? um,hehe, I think I know how to build it.hehe I'm serious. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! <http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ <<<<<<<< <<<<<<<< From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 19:21:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05068; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:18:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c05da2$5df694a0$2d78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001203204953.007e03a0 inforamp.net> <3.0.5.32.20001203215228.00a27800@inforamp.net> Subject: Re: Damien's machine Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 22:29:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C05D78.73E1A400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"j_QLh3.0.2F1.hpmAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C05D78.73E1A400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hehe, I think I want to try some small scale versions first. I know they = sell cheapie van de graff generators at Spencers in the mall. I think it = might actually work. I'll let you know. maybe put up some video or = something. mj ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colin Quinney=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:52 PM Subject: Re: Damien's machine Hi Michael, Are you going to build it full scale? I want to be there Colin At 09:27 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Hi Colin, Well..... actually I just thought of this connection recently but it = all fit. At any rate in reading Michael Faraday's writings I discovered = that he used static electricity to separate water by electrolysis in one = of his experiments. He used the "spark" from an electric machine which = made electricity by turning a copper cyllinder/disk between electrically = charged pieces of rubber. So I thought wouldn't it be interesting to = build an electrolysis cell around the collecter/dome at the top of a van = de graff generator and use it as the cathode and an inert metal for the = anode and run the wire from the anode back to the ground. Then I thought = that you could perhaps "pull" electricity through an electrolysis cell = by using a van de graff to create a difference in the electric potential = between the electrodes by letting it pull electrons from the electrode = that you wanted to be the cathode and if you did it that way it would = look something like Damien's Machine. That was when I thought of the = connection. I don't know if it will work or not but at this point I = don't see why not... hehe, kinda weird isn't it? MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Colin Quinney=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Damien's machine How? At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20 >>>> Hi all, Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy device from the last Omen = movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a Van De Graff generator = sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it was supposed to be some = new kind of energy device? um,hehe, I think I know how to build it.hehe I'm serious. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! = http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ <<<< <<<< ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C05D78.73E1A400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hehe, I think I want to try some small = scale=20 versions first. I know they sell cheapie van de graff generators at = Spencers in=20 the mall. I think it might actually work. I'll let you know. maybe put = up some=20 video or something.
mj
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here = for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Colin=20 Quinney
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 = 9:52=20 PM
Subject: Re: Damien's = machine

Hi Michael,

Are you going to build it full = scale? I want=20 to be there <g>

Colin
At 09:27 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you = wrote:=20
>>>>
Hi Colin,
Well..... actually = I=20 just thought of this connection recently but it all fit. At any rate = in=20 reading Michael Faraday's writings I discovered that he used static=20 electricity to separate water by electrolysis in one of his = experiments. He=20 used the "spark" from an electric machine which made electricity by = turning=20 a copper cyllinder/disk between electrically charged pieces of = rubber. So I=20 thought wouldn't it be interesting to build an electrolysis cell = around the=20 collecter/dome at the top of a van de graff generator and use it as = the=20 cathode and an inert metal for the anode and run the wire from the = anode=20 back to the ground. Then I thought that you could perhaps "pull" = electricity=20 through an electrolysis cell by using a van de graff to create a = difference=20 in the electric potential between the electrodes by letting it pull=20 electrons from the electrode that you wanted to be the cathode and = if you=20 did it that way it would look something like Damien's Machine. That = was when=20 I thought of the connection. I don't know if it will work or not but = at this=20 point I don't see why not...
hehe, kinda weird isn't = it?
MJ
----------------------------------------------= -------
Click=20 here for Free=20 = Video!!
<http://www.gohip.com/free_video/>http://www.gohip.com/f= ree_video/
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 <mailto:quinney inforamp.net>Colin Quinney
To:=20 <mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com =
Sent:=20 Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Damien's=20 machine

How?

At 07:31 PM 12/03/00 -0500, you wrote:=20
>>>>
Hi all,
Anyone remember Damien Thorn's energy = device from=20 the last Omen movie? That big thing that looked sort of like a = Van De=20 Graff generator sticking up out of the ocean? Remember how it = was=20 supposed to be some new kind of energy device?
um,hehe, I = think I=20 know how to build it.hehe I'm=20 = serious.
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------Click=20 here for Free=20 = Video!!
<http://www.gohip.com/free_video/>http://www.gohip.com/f= ree_video/

<<<<


<= /BLOCKQUOTE><<<<

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C05D78.73E1A400-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 23:03:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24818; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 22:49:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 22:49:32 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:48:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA24797 Resent-Message-ID: <"fZTTw.0.h36.xvpAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:40:02 -0600: >My wife found this rather scary item: > >"Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" I suspect it is true, and just think how much money the drug company, that just invented a vaccine against the disease in monkeys, would save if the Pakistani government requested fast tracked human trials in Pakistan as a consequence of the outbreak. Not to mention the profits from sales in a country that has considerably more to spend than poor African nations. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 3 23:47:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA04169; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:47:20 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:53:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jed Rothwell cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal Fox: see Shoulder's patent In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202170720.00c2c5d0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"V6i0W.0.311.6mqAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jed, Can you find the section in the patent wherein there is a measure of input VS output levels... or maybe Hal can? I personally have never seen Ken suffer from anything but good work and clear science. I do not have the patent nor do I have www based e mail or printer. I certainly know I do not have the memory capability to intake any of Ken's patents... they are pretty big from what I remember. J On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > How Fox wrote to me: "The [Shoulders] patent states about 30 times as much > energy out as input. Shoulders told me he had obtained as much as 100. > Perhaps he enjoys indulging in terminologic inexactitudes." I have not seen > the patent, but I presume Hal got this right. > > I do not know what to make of this weird situation. It would appear the > inventor is denying valuable claims made in his own patent. Shoulders told > me very clearly that he has not seen such large excess energy. I asked him > to describe the instruments used to detect the energy, but he did not > respond. It would seem I owe Hal Fox an apology, and perhaps Shoulders does to. > > I wish that Shoulders would clarify the situation but he does not seem > inclined to do so. Unless I hear more from him, I suppose this claim must > end up in the usual morass of confusion. If he is seeing excess energy, and > it is even greater than the dramatic claims in the patent, I do not > understand why he would want to hide the fact. Perhaps he is suffering from > a case of the inventor's disease. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 01:50:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28009; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:48:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:48:54 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:56:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"ebleI2.0.Zr6.5YsAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:40 PM 12/3/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >My wife found this rather scary item: > >"Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" > > "Nine people have died in Pakistan from the Ebola virus >and at least three others are sick in the first outbreak of the disease >outside Africa. The highly infectious disease - that has symptoms similar >to typhoid and malaria, but which causes massive internal bleeding and >death in as little as two days - has been identified in Karachi, home to 10 >million people. Experts fear that more cases may have been misdiagnosed and >have warned that a massive campaign is needed to stop it spreading. Ahmed >Rashid, Lahore." (Source: >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000252141601804&rtmo=psBIhpbe&atmo=9999999 >9&pg= >/et/00/12/1/wbul01.html#go2.) > [snip] I went to the above URL but did not get directly to the story. A query on "ebola pakistan" at the London Telegraph site got it though. Odd that there is almost nothing else related to be found, no other reports yet. At another site I found some other older stuff from September that may or may not be related, possibly some history of misidentified ebola: http://www.reliefweb.int/IRIN/asia/countrystories/pakistan/20000929.phtml PAKISTAN: Viral fever death toll reaches eight ISLAMABAD, 29 September (IRIN) - The death toll in a suspected outbreak of Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever (CCHF) in the western Pakistani province of Balochistan had reached eight as of Wednesday, after the confirmed death of a 45-year-old woman and 15-year-old boy, Dr MA Badini of the WHO office in the provincial capital told IRIN on Thursday. At least three of the deceased were medical workers at Sandeman Provincial Hospital in Quetta, to which victims of the outbreak in Loralai district were taken, Dr Badini said. Blood samples have been sent to the US and confirmation that the deaths have resulted from Crimean-Congo fever, a highly contagious Ebola-like virus, was expected in two to three weeks, he added. CCHF, transmitted by eating and/or handling sheep and goats, is relatively rare in humans but there were recorded cases in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998, and again in Pakistan in May of this year. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 03:04:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA07521; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:03:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:03:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20001204110347.10956.qmail nw175.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 4 Dec 00 06:03:47 EST From: Horace To: jlnlabs egroups.com Subject: MEG relevant transformer problem CC: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4.03) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----NetAddressPart-00--=_DLDv1712S75202aa1ea" Resent-Message-ID: <"22vio1.0.Nr1.LetAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_DLDv1712S75202aa1ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An update on the "MEG as shorted secondary transformer" problem: I've added the Lenz Law Trivia from ETech and a 2nd page with some wavefo= rms that might shed some comprehension on the phenomena happening inside the = MEG. see the attached .PDF file Regards, Horace ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------NetAddressPart-00--=_DLDv1712S75202aa1ea Content-Type: application/pdf; name="FluxSwitch2.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="FluxSwitch2.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMNJeLjz9MNCjEgMCBvYmoNPDwgDS9DcmVhdG9yIDxmZWZmMDA0NjAwNmMwMDc1 MDA3ODAwNTMwMDc3MDA2OTAwNzQwMDYzMDA2ODAwMzIwMDJlMDA2NDAwNmYwMDYzMDAyMDAw MmQwMDIwMDA0ZDAwNjkwMDYzMDA3MjAwNmYwMDczMDA2ZjAwNjYwMDc0MDAyMDAwNTcwMDZm MDA3MjAwNjQ+DS9DcmVhdGlvbkRhdGUgKEQ6MjAwMDEyMDQxMTQxMTQpDS9UaXRsZSA8ZmVm ZjAwNDYwMDZjMDA3NTAwNzgwMDUzMDA3NzAwNjkwMDc0MDA2MzAwNjgwMDMyMDAyZTAwNTAw 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OTUyNyAwMDAwMCBuDQp0cmFpbGVyDTw8DS9TaXplIDE5DS9JbmZvIDEgMCBSIA0vUm9vdCAz IDAgUiANL0lEWzxmMzE2NGFlNDQ3ZGUzYzVjOWEwMzkxNDkwNDRlNWVkOT48YjdkYmZhZjZj YTZkZDNlMGM3MDE5NzJkMWMzMjJhMDI+XQ0+Pg1zdGFydHhyZWYNMTk1NDkNJSVFT0YN ------NetAddressPart-00--=_DLDv1712S75202aa1ea-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 06:01:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13147; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:00:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:00:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2BA4ED.30ADB4D9 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:06:37 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pAAwl2.0.oC3.sDwAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > My wife found this rather scary item: > > "Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" There is nothing on the World Health Organization "Outbreak News" site regarding a Karachi Ebola outbreak: http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/index.html The link on http://www.drudgereport.com/ to the Telegraph story is still active. I have sent the following email to the editor of the Telegraph: <><><><><><><><><> Subject: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:49 -0500 From: Terry Blanton To: et.letters telegraph.co.uk Dear Sir: You are reporting 9 dead due to Ebola in Karachi. Can you please site the source of this report. There is no such news on the WHO "Outbreak" Web page: http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/index.html Thank you in advance, Terry Blanton <><><><><><><><><> I will post any response here. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 06:46:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25038; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:45:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:45:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"gSe_f3.0.876.-twAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:40:02 -0600: > >>My wife found this rather scary item: >> >>"Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" > >I suspect it is true, and just think how much money the drug company, that >just invented a vaccine against the disease in monkeys, would save if the >Pakistani government requested fast tracked human trials in Pakistan as a >consequence of the outbreak. Not to mention the profits from sales in a >country that has considerably more to spend than poor African nations. ***{That's a rather oblique comment, Robin. Are you suggesting that a drug company has deliberately released the virus in Karachi, in hopes of profit? If so, I think you are going off the deep end. The fact of the matter is that with routine international airline travel, and with a two-week incubation period for the disease before the victim begins to show any symptoms, it is not at all surprising that it has broken out of Africa. No conspiracy theories are required. The only reason I doubted the story is that I don't understand why it hasn't resulted in screaming headlines in every newspaper on the planet. Because of that, I continue to suspect, and hope, that the story is a hoax. --MJ}*** > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 07:32:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08028; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 07:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 07:27:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:26:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"nhJME1.0.Mz1.TVxAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 7:40 PM 12/3/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>My wife found this rather scary item: >> >>"Nine Dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan" >> >> "Nine people have died in Pakistan from the Ebola virus >>and at least three others are sick in the first outbreak of the disease >>outside Africa. The highly infectious disease - that has symptoms similar >>to typhoid and malaria, but which causes massive internal bleeding and >>death in as little as two days - has been identified in Karachi, home to 10 >>million people. Experts fear that more cases may have been misdiagnosed and >>have warned that a massive campaign is needed to stop it spreading. Ahmed >>Rashid, Lahore." (Source: >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000252141601804&rtmo=psBIhpbe&atmo=9999999 >>9&pg= >>/et/00/12/1/wbul01.html#go2.) >> >[snip] > >I went to the above URL but did not get directly to the story. A query on >"ebola pakistan" at the London Telegraph site got it though. > >Odd that there is almost nothing else related to be found, no other reports >yet. At another site I found some other older stuff from September that >may or may not be related, possibly some history of misidentified ebola: > >http://www.reliefweb.int/IRIN/asia/countrystories/pakistan/20000929.phtml > >PAKISTAN: Viral fever death toll reaches eight > >ISLAMABAD, 29 September (IRIN) - The death toll in a suspected outbreak of >Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever (CCHF) in the western Pakistani province of >Balochistan had reached eight as of Wednesday, after the confirmed death of >a 45-year-old woman and 15-year-old boy, Dr MA Badini of the WHO office in >the provincial capital told IRIN on Thursday. At least three of the deceased >were medical workers at Sandeman Provincial Hospital in Quetta, to which >victims of the outbreak in Loralai district were taken, Dr Badini said. > >Blood samples have been sent to the US and confirmation that the deaths have >resulted from Crimean-Congo fever, a highly contagious Ebola-like virus, was >expected in two to three weeks, he added. CCHF, transmitted by eating and/or >handling sheep and goats, is relatively rare in humans but there were >recorded cases in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998, and again in Pakistan in >May of this year. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ***{The above item raises in my mind the question of how the world has suddenly managed to acquire multiple varieties of hemorrhagic fever. We have Ebola in Africa, originating from some unknown and presumably mammalian host, and now we have "Crimean-Congo fever," yet another deadly hemorrhagic fever, arising from contact with the virus-laden, bloody oozings of infected sheep and goats. But, until the last few years, hemorrhagic fever was unknown, right? How could that be--that is, how could medical science have somehow managed to not notice a disease condition in which the afflicted animal oozes blood from the eyes, ears, mouth, nose, genitalia, and lots of other places, and then dies? Indeed, even in the absence of medical science, how could such a disease have gone unnoticed? Wouldn't even a tribe of cannibals in the most god-forsaken jungle backwater have a name for such a condition, if they were in the habit of encountering it? The answer, I think, is obviously yes. And if this is a new virus that appeared due to a mutation, it is a hell of a mutation, is it not? I mean, what is the similarity to any other disease? Aren't successful mutations generally tiny changes, of necessity, due to the requirement that the new capability be in sync with the pre-existing capabilities of the mutated organism? Lizards, for example, did not lose their legs suddenly, and become snakes. Instead, there was a gradual process of elongation and increase in body flexibility, during which the legs became shorter and shorter, until they finally disappeared. If the legs had simply disappeared at the beginning, the result would have merely been a lizard without legs, lying there on the ground, waiting for some hungry critter to come along and make a meal of him. And, by the same token, converting an ordinary virus into a hemorrhagic fever virus seems like a large leap into dysfunctionality, if it occurred quickly. Therefore, could this be a virus of extraterrestrial origin? Could it be a comet-borne affliction, or, even worse, part of an ongoing alien effort to engineer a virus that will wipe out mankind? Could it be that the reports of abductions and experimentation with humans are actually true, and that the purpose is to come up with a killer virus that will wipe out the human race, so that Earth becomes available for colonization by aliens? (I'm just tossing out some wild thoughts here--brainstorming, as it were. Caveat emptor.) --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 08:08:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18414; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:00:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:00:45 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:35:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, krscfs@svn.net, halfox@slkc.uswest.net From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA18376 Resent-Message-ID: <"lzDqR3.0.ZV4.i-xAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Here is a letter from Ken Shoulders, reformatted form Acrobat .pdf with some difficulty, and no mistakes I hope. This is what you get when you ask Shoulders technical questions such as "What instruments were used to measure the power?" He considers that a "meaningless question" and he thinks it was "clearly aimed at shooting down comments made by Hal Fox." Actually, it was clearly intended to find out what kind of instruments he used. I made other statements clearly aimed at shooting down Hal Fox, for example when I said it is bad form to discuss a secret university study at a national physics conference. When I aim to shoot down Fox -- or anyone else -- I try to make it clear that is what I am doing, and why I am doing it. When I ask someone what instruments he uses, it is because I want to publish that information. Shoulders appears to upset by these questions about instruments and replications. I have often asked similar questions to scientists like Fleischman, McKubre, Storms, Ohmori, Oriani, Miles and others, and they have always answered immediately and in detail. They do not consider this subject "mundane" "agitating" "disturbing" or "a total waste of time." On the contrary, since they are making claims of excess energy, they consider these measurements to be the heart of the matter, and they are willing to talk about them for hours at a time. They think that replication and independent verification are how you establish credibility. That is why, for example, Miles and McKubre have arranged so many fruitful collaborations with other top-notch institutions to verify helium. Needless to say, I could not agree more with their views, and their mainstream, conservative, textbook approach. I think they would agree with me that Shoulder's response is highly abnormal for a scientist. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - AN OPEN LETTER TO AND ABOUT JED ROTHWELL—AGITATOR By Ken Shoulders Bodega, CA This letter is in response to recent inflammatory comments by Jed Rothwell directed to Hal Fox and Ken Shoulders. It contains copies of web messages to help clarify issues that have been poorly handled by Rothwell. Although it is not usually worthwhile to address such meaningless issues, the depth of Rothwell's inane behavior deserves some mention so that others can see the harm it can do to them and take precautions to avoid his agitating and disturbing nature. On one hand, Rothwell decries the disarray in the cold fusion club, yet; on the other hand, he constantly seeds dissention in insidious ways. I suppose he feels this behavior enhances his position in the field. In my opinion, it only lowers it. Rothwell's ability to make scientific judgment calls is abysmal from the examples I have seen and this lack of ability is at the root of the present misunderstanding. After some introductory remarks on the web messages that have transpired, I will introduce the specific notions, woefully missed by Rothwell, that are at the root of the technical arguments here. The first communication in this series was from Tom Valone to me requesting a note to Rothwell about things said by Hal Fox at a recent conference. This communication follows: Introduction by Valone and Request by Rothwell Subject: Fw: Questions about your research Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:50:30 -0500 From: "Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone" To: "Thomas Bearden" < >, "Ken Shoulders" CC: Tom and Ken, Jed would like to catch up with your developments. Thanks for your replies to him. I hope everything is going well for you both. Tom Valone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:59 PM Subject: Can you please forward these messages? Tom: I do not have e-mail addresses for the Shoulders or Bearden. If you do, could you please forward (or fax) the attached messages? Thanks. - JR Jed Rothwell Contributing Editor Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com Nov. 29, 2000 Dear Dr. Shoulders, Hal Fox spoke at the American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000, Marriott Wardman Park hotel, Washington, D.C. Among other things, he said that you have produced significant excess energy with some of your devices. Later, in a private e-mail, he said that he observed experiments in your laboratory and that you claim, "as much as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in." This is exciting news. Could you please tell me some of the details of your power measurement and/or calorimetry? I'm afraid that a discussion of the theory and atomic structure of charge cluster as would be over my head, but I would like to hear about the instruments and techniques used to measure the excess energy. Specifically, could you tell me: What instruments were used to measure the power? What were the power levels and total integrated energy? What method of metering or calorimetry was used? (I mention calorimetry because although I presume the output is electricity, it might still be measured with calorimetry. Some researchers prefer to measure intermittent or spiky electricity by converting it to heat. ) What sort of calibration or null runs have you performed? How many times has this experiment has been done? Have there been any independent replications or third party verifications? Sincerely, Jed Rothwell Reply to Rothwell by Shoulders The questions asked were clearly aimed at shooting down comments made by Hal Fox. I knew from previous experience that any answer to Rothwell would likely get as screwed up as necessary to cause a commotion. My answers, as shown below, were designed to minimize total word use and still answer Rothwell's main question. I attempted a bit of inappropriate and misplaced humor in the way I saw the Fox view of the world, but this is not a denial of what Fox had said, as later falsely reported by Rothwell. I consider Hal Fox a friend and would not demean him by calling him a liar. Rothwell is the one who lied. He lied by not understanding the issues he purports to know about, namely, the science of cold fusion. This is apparent in the above list of sophomoric questions on which he asked me to respond. Answers to the proper questions will be examined in more detail later. Subject: Update Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 04:00:01 -0800 From: Ken Shoulders To: Jed Rothwell CC: Tom Valone BCC: Tom Bearden < > [An Open Letter to Jed Rothwell] 12/2/00 (5 pages) 3 Jed Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align with physical facts. I am sure you know this and I am surprised that you ask about his musing. What I intend to say in publications has been said in several of my papers. These can be downloaded from: http://www.svn.net/krscfs When there is something more substantial to say, it will be published at a proper time and place. Ken The Lie by Rothwell There were several responses by Rothwell to the above statement I made. The first one essentially called Hal Fox a liar in reporting a conversation with me. As shown below, he did this on the web without even presenting the original statement being contested. In this note he said, "Shoulders denies this." In fact, Shoulders did not deny the accuracy of the statement made by Fox. It was the piss-poor reporting through innuendo, out-of-context statements and just plain stupidity by Rothwell that made that claim. Ken Shoulders' papers From: Jed Rothwell (view other messages by this author) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:51:24 At the ANS conference, Hal Fox made some exaggerated claims about the work of Ken Shoulders. He said that Shoulders "has achieved, he claims, as much as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in." Shoulders denies this. He wrote, "what I intend to say in publications has been said in several of my papers. These can be downloaded from:" http://www.svn.net/krscfs - Jed The Fox Response to the Rothwell Disturbance After a response by Fox, Rothwell drummed up a form of inventor's disease for Shoulders. The agitation and disturbance is now going nicely for Rothwell. After only a few strokes on his keyboard, he has managed to cause as much disturbance to the new energy club as his friends, and possibly employers, in the APS had done over a period of several years. Rancor and disorder seem to be his modus operandi. Rothwell must imagine himself as some form of self-styled guardian of the new energy field. Just follow the words below to see how his song goes. If allowed to run unabated, this scenario could reach Rothwellian proportions. Subject: Re: Update Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:39:43 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell To: Ken Shoulders , editor@infinite-energy.com You wrote: Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align with physical facts. I am sure you know this and I am surprised that you ask about his musing. I asked because he made the statements during a presentation at the American Nuclear Society conference. It is bad form for him to "muse" in that situation. - Jed Hal Fox: see Shoulder's patent From: Jed Rothwell (view other messages by this author) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:28:30 How Fox wrote to me: "The [Shoulders] patent states about 30 times as much energy out as input. Shoulders told me he had obtained as much as 100. Perhaps he enjoys indulging in terminologic inexactitudes." I have not seen the patent, but I presume Hal got this right. I do not know what to make of this weird situation. It would appear the inventor is denying valuable claims made in his own patent. Shoulders told me very clearly that he has not seen such large excess energy. I asked him to describe the instruments used to detect the energy, but he did not respond. It would seem I owe Hal Fox an apology, and perhaps Shoulders does to. I wish that Shoulders would clarify the situation but he does not seem inclined to do so. Unless I hear more from him, I suppose this claim must end up in the usual morass of confusion. If he is seeing excess energy, and it is even greater than the dramatic claims in the patent, I do not understand why he would want to hide the fact. Perhaps he is suffering from a case of the inventor's disease. - Jed Root Technical Cause for the Disagreement The root technical cause for the misunderstandings being aired here stems from the lack of an agreed upon definition of what is commonly called "over unity". In the end, there is only one workable definition of the term. That definition would be applied to a machine capable of sustaining itself and having a surplus of output energy for external consumption. Unfortunately, that term is not good for working on the process during the early stages of development, although many use it due to a lack of understanding of the basic process under investigation. The energy production process we all seek is not a single, homogenous process that produces equal energy everywhere within the apparatus. It is instead, a violent, disruptive process given to exploding material from the active sites and showing widely scattered levels of local activity. Yet, the primary input energy is somewhat evenly distributed throughout the apparatus. The gain under discussion here is therefore variable from location to location. With the highly variable local conditions that have been seen by most experimenters in the field, one thing is clear, and that is, most measurements are based on an average yield for the process. This is because most of the experimental methods cannot attend the detailed process but are inherently averaging processes. This is certainly true for calorimetry. Calorimetry is perhaps the worst process possible for determining the root cause of the effects seen. Yet, this root must be found. The EV technique excels in this search. In working with EVs, I look at the details of the energy production process on a shot-by-shot basis. I see an enormous range of energy outputs for the same energy input for each site activated. Under these conditions, I can see in one experiment a range of "over unity" that varies between 50% and several thousand. Of course, after a period of time, and many individual reactions, the tyranny of averages finally catches up with you. But before that average is applied, one can claim any number between 0.5 and 3,000, depending on which group of shots you look at. There is an analogy here to gambling against the house odds. The money you win and can take home largely depends on when you stop gambling. Until the knowledge of the energy conversion process grows sufficiently to give you the house odds, you are just a penny ante player. As bad as it sounds at first, there is real advantage in working this way when seeking the answers we need and few technologies are so generous in yielding information as EV technology. Using the EV to excite a reaction in material allows one to know the precise amount of input energy due to the quantized nature of the EV. The location of the reaction is accurately known and the reaction products can be analyzed by type, flux and energy without interference from the slop-jar conditions most cold-fusion-like processes occur in. When Rothwell wants me to answer the mundane questions he is accustomed to asking, it almost makes me ill because such methods and answers are a total waste of time. The sad thing is that he will not be able to either see this or change his ways because he only follows the movements of others and does nothing himself. Now we come to the crux of this discussion. What should one say for the answer to the question of what the gain is? I am perfectly happy to say that it is well over a thousand on the good shots, and with more effort applied to the age-old uniformity problem, the entire machine could function with the same number. The technical problem for me, and always has been, is how to keep from progressively destroying the highly ordered machine built to produce such good results. At the present time, the higher the gain, the higher the deterioration rate of the machine. And now we come to the key question. What should Hal Fox have said at the meeting? As far as I am concerned, he can say anything he wants to say as long as he adds a little qualification for the unsophisticated audience. Actually, no numbers matter until the exploratory job is finished and the final machine is measured. Unfortunately, the audience is so conditioned to the wrong method of understanding and describing the process of gradual improvement that no amount of discussion about what an EV does will placate them. Under the prevailing conditions, it is best to say nothing. Here are a couple of final thoughts for Jed Rothwell. This is the end of the useless discussion of who said what about whatever, as I do not intend to respond to the gibberish you spew. If you are really inclined to perform a valuable service for this new energy field, get out of it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 08:46:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00990; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:45:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:45:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204110257.00bceb30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:34:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, soliton@bellsouth.net From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Response from Tom Bearden In-Reply-To: <3A29A7B6.364D8DDF pacbell.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202172013.00c25370 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kg2892.0.OF.PeyAw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Despite Tom Bearden's long and seemingly open response to Jed's inquiry, >it would >be foolish to take the bait and give these unsubstantiated claims much >credence, >no matter how much we might desire them to be true. Let me rush in to say that I do not endorse or attack Bearden. I am merely relaying his comments. I have not read enough about his work to form an opinion. >If there was a single self-running prototype, no matter how crude it >looked, it >is absurd to think that it would not immediately be put on the cover of Time, >Scientific American, Wall Street Journal, etc. for the world to see. NO >rational >scientist or even dyed-in-the-wool skeptic, not even Park himself, would >dare to >question a self-running prototype. Well . . . I do not think the reaction would be as favorable as that. I suppose it would take several months before Time and Scientific American were persuaded. It would certainly persuade me! It would persuade many legitimate scientists and investors, and he would be swamped with money offered under very favorable terms. So if Bearden has anything like a self-sustaining motor, I cannot imagine why he would hide it. I do not know why his present machine cannot be made to self-sustain, so this does seem a little suspicious. Certainly, I would consider it highly unethical for Bearden to begin selling stock before he completes this essential test. In the past, when I've asked people who claim pure electric output why they have not made the machines self-sustain, they have come up with complex explanations about erratic waveforms and power losses, which I do not fully understand. I suspect these are bogus excuses, but I do not have enough confidence in my knowledge of electricity to be sure. All I know is that ordinary electric motors are 80% to 90% efficient, and batteries and capacitors are 90% or more efficient, so it would not take much excess power to make a "magic" electric motor sustain itself. >Oh yes. The main thing Bearden forgot to mention is that Naudin has been >trying >for several weeks to go "self-running" and it just isn't happening. Let us give credit to Naudin for taking this obvious and essential step. >wildly inaccurate readings. On his behalf, he has not actually made the >claim of >OU and has also indicated that he will not make such a claim until he can go >self-powered. Yes. Good for him! >In the mean time, I would be a little careful about that "Magnetic Energy >Limited" IPO. I would be VERY careful, and I certainly hope that nothing I have published will be construed as an endorsement. Please note that I have copied this response to Bearden. I trust he will take it in a proper, businesslike frame of mind, unlike some other inventors I have corresponded with recently! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:41:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31411; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0800 From: RiskRraven aol.com Message-ID: <93.3d4c61e.275d3ed4 aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:39:16 EST Subject: Re: Response from Tom Bearden To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 115 Resent-Message-ID: <"LDuK33.0.gg7.6K-Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 12/4/2000 11:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes: << I would be VERY careful, and I certainly hope that nothing I have published will be construed as an endorsement. Please note that I have copied this response to Bearden. I trust he will take it in a proper, businesslike frame of mind, unlike some other inventors I have corresponded with recently! - Jed >> Indeed it is always wise to be careful with this sort of thing. I have no expertise to evaluate his or his associates' claims, but it may be respectful to be cognizant of the fact that Bearden (well, to my limited knowledge) has never collected money or sold stock. He has, over years, been the midwife to many inventions, but none of those, for one reason or another, have made the market. I'm sure that whatever he's wrapped up in now is at least 90 percent legally oriented, as this invention I'm sure he does not want lost, and at his age represents a culmination of his life's work. So, please have faith that all questions will be answered in due time, for now however, "keep your purse strings taught." Sincerely, Ed Scanlan PS-I am in no way associated with Tom Bearden or his invention or anything of the kind. This is all in my own humble opinion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:55:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03486; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:53:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:53:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:58:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: Schnurer Subject: capacitors of uAND Ferro Mag Materialnique designs (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9Qqlf3.0.3s.PW-Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:07:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Schnurer Subject: capacitors of unique designs Dear Folks, I am "building" some materials with unusual properties as dielectrics. These are, so far: Capacitor dielectric materials with: a] lowered curie b] magnetic field alterable capacitance c] may take sugggestions I am NOT making capacitors for all comers. BUT: Please contact me off line and I may be able to sell you some of the stuff at cost plus hassle factor ... you would have to mold, bake, electrode .... if the demand is big enough some of a bunch may want to pony up and have a master bake and turn out a gang of blanks for parts... Who out there wants to metallize them??? Hmmm? Have to be a non-contaminating meterial-process.... ie, evaporated Ni ... or Ag ... Evap Ni... if think enough is also good ferro magnetic ... AND: We May ... note MAY be making straight punch runs of "2-step" magnetic materials... A} one part good square law... B} one part good flux guide... SO: You use to make "roll-your-own flux switches.. . this way you can use the ratio of the amount of {A] to {B} Probably in 1/4 inch wide strips and tape ... If the stuff happens ... in part depends on demand, we maybe able to let 1/4 to 1/2 pound go at a clip. J OH: Capacitor stuff ... BaTiO and Al2O3 plus limiters. No toxic stuff. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 10:55:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03505; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:53:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:53:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:52:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Resent-Message-ID: <"9YhkI1.0.hs.VW-Aw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ***{Let me see if I've got this straight: Rothwell said: >Hal Fox spoke at the American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, >2000, Marriott Wardman Park hotel, Washington, D.C. Among other things, he >said that you have produced significant excess energy with some of your >devices. Later, in a private e-mail, he said that he observed experiments >in your laboratory and that you claim, "as much as 100 times as much energy >out as compared to energy in." Shoulders said: >Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align >with physical facts. I am sure you know this and I am surprised that you >ask about his musing. **[In the context of Rothwell's enquiry, above, this sounds to me like a denial of Hal Fox's statement. --MJ]** Rothwell said: >At the ANS conference, Hal Fox made some exaggerated claims about the work >of Ken Shoulders. He said that Shoulders "has achieved, he claims, as much >as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in." Shoulders denies >this. **[While Rothwell is frequently guilty of logical leaping, he seems to be on firm ground in treating the Shoulders comment as a denial. --MJ]** Shoulders said: I attempted a bit of inappropriate and misplaced >humor in the way I saw the Fox view of the world, but this is not a denial >of what Fox had said, as later falsely reported by Rothwell. What is going on in the above? My guess is that Shoulders did not expect Rothwell to go public regarding his original remark about Fox, and hence the remark in question was intended to placate Rothwell without irritating Fox. However, Rothwell then went public with Shoulder's implied denial, forcing him to choose between offending Rothwell and offending Fox. Result: he chose to offend the person he liked the least--i.e., Rothwell. At any rate, that's the way it looks to me. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 11:19:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12831; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:11:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:11:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204135033.00bceb30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 14:10:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, krscfs@svn.net, editor infinite-energy.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: My summary of the Shoulders debate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HcqKU2.0.E83.zm-Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is my summary of my point of view, of the debates between Fox, Shoulders, and myself. This is probably too long for the magazine, because the debate is not important and a space is limited. I thought I would publish the whole thing here and send a copy to Fox and Shoulders. I will have to cut this down to a few sentences for the magazine, or drop it. I welcome comments from anyone. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [At the ANS] Fox said that Ken Shoulders, "has achieved, he claims, as much as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in," with his charge cluster device. I contacted Shoulders, who first denied that his device performed this well. He said that Fox's "interpretations that do not always align with physical facts," which I took to mean "Fox is incorrect." He later said Fox is more or less right, Fox "can say anything he wants to say as long as he adds a little qualification," and "actually, no numbers matter." I asked Shoulders for a little qualification, with a series of questions: What instruments were used to measure the power? What were the power levels and total integrated energy? What method of metering or calorimetry was used? . . . What sort of calibration or null runs have you performed? How many times has this experiment has been done? Have there been any independent replications or third party verifications? These questions upset him a great deal. He responded with an acrimonious letter claiming that these are "meaningless questions," they are "mundane" "agitating" "disturbing" and answering them would be "a total waste of time." Naturally, these are mundane. That is why I asked them -- the answers to such mundane questions form the bedrock basis for a claim of excess energy. I have often asked similar questions to people like Fleischman, McKubre, Storms, Ohmori, Miles and others, and they have always answered immediately and in detail. They also welcome discussions of replications, because they consider replication the only method of establishing scientific credibility. That is why, for example, Miles and McKubre have arranged so many fruitful collaborations with other top-notch institutions to verify helium. I fully agree with their mainstream, conservative, textbook approach. Shoulders is said to be a gifted scientist, but his response to these mundane questions is highly abnormal. He closed by making some incorrect statements about cold fusion calorimetry. "The location of the [EV] reaction [that Shoulders measures] is accurately known and the reaction products can be analyzed by type, flux and energy without interference from the slop-jar conditions most cold-fusion-like processes occur in. When Rothwell wants me to answer the mundane questions he is accustomed to asking, it almost makes me ill because such methods and answers are a total waste of time." The location of the cold fusion reaction is also accurately known: it occurs at the cathode in a small, clearly defined space. Conditions in electrochemical cells do not interfere with calorimetry, especially not during heat after death episodes. Shoulders thinks calorimetry is not an appropriate way to measure energy from microscopic scale reactions ("a total waste of time"), but as Fleischmann often points out, calorimetry was the earliest and it remains the best way to measure the net energy from fission reactions in small radioactive samples of material. Shoulders made other dubious statements about energy measurements and ended up dismissing the issue with the statement that depending on one's method, excess energy could be considered "any number between 0.5 and 3,000" with his machine. This is a little like looking at a cold fusion experiment and saying that you can change the excess heat to any percent you like by measuring input to include the energy consumed by the power supplies, the mass flow pumps, or the data recorders. A researcher who claims excess energy must explain his methodology and present a coherent set of numbers based on that particular methodology, rather than waving his hands and saying it can be any number you like. In the same vein, he said, "the root technical cause for the misunderstandings being aired here stems from the lack of an agreed upon definition of what is commonly called 'over unity'. In the end, there is only one workable definition of the term. That definition would be applied to a machine capable of sustaining itself and having a surplus of output energy for external consumption." People do define over unity in different ways: a physicist looks at the fraction of energy in the cell alone; an engineer might use Shoulders' definition. But there is no confusion about these definitions. Physicists and engineers understand both definitions perfectly, as do I, and they know which is appropriate for a given experiment. The definitions have different purposes, but they are equally "workable." A researcher must specify which he proposes to use, and then show how his data fits it. Shoulders has taken a trivial, clearly defined issue which confuses no one, and tried to blow it up to be a complex problem. If Shoulders does not wish to make a claim of excess energy, he should not discuss energy balances or debate the ins and outs of calorimetry. If he does wish to make a credible claim, it behooves him provide mundane details with qualitative and quantitative facts. He should also use a calorimeter, as Fleischmann recommends, because it is the best tool to measure the net effect of MeV level nuclear events. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 12:37:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26819; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:22:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:22:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A2C124B.6B4D6E96 gte.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 16:53:20 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, ibr@gte.net Subject: Re: Hal Fox: see Shoulder's patent References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001202170720.00c2c5d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4D9cr2.0.wY6.Aq_Aw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal Fox is all mixed up with charge clusters. Fox's repeated claim on Shoulder's large COP is just a rumor (I have seen several patents "claiming" over-unities which do not exist - one of them is Richardson's patent on "aquafuel" in which the claim state self-sufficiency for powering a car !!!!!!!). Back to charge clusters, yes, there is a potential there, but there has to be first some basic science to understand the basics. Ruggero Santilli tried to do some science with Hal Fox in this respect by suggesting that the quantitative study of charge clusters should start with its "germ" which can only be the coupling of TWO electrons, as experimentally proved to couple in the helium in the Cooper pair and in the valence. Once you couple two, than you can couple many. The main point everybody can see (except Hal Fox) is that, if two electrons cannot couple into a quasi stable state, charge clusters cannot exist. In response to this generous proposal for help[ from a scientist with quite a reputation, what did Hal Fox did? He attacked with its friend Jin the isochemical model of valence bond based on the coupling of two electrons with nonsense, by knowing that the model had been published by Pergamon Press in Oxford, England after about one year of review by professional scientists ()at any rate, Santilli-Shillady model is the only one represent ing molecular data exact to the seventh decimals - there is no point to indicate that the bases for the criticism of highly technical work based on new math was pure nonsense and, above all, the criticism was moved WITHOUT PROPOSING A BETTER MODEL). So you see, Hal Fox is all mixed up on charge clusters. On one side he claims that they exist and have a large over-unity, while on the other he tried to criticize the very ultimate structure for their formation. The biggest problem with Hal Fox is that he does not admit to himnself that he is not a scientist. Hugo Ross IBR Europe = From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 13:01:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08906; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:51:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:51:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204154931.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:51:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, krscfs svn.net, editor@infinite-energy.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: My summary of the Shoulders debate In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204135033.00bceb30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"49cYy.0.2B2.gF0Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is an addendum about Shoulders' statement that the "location of the [EV] reaction is accurately known and the reaction products can be analyzed by type, flux and energy." The same statements apply to many cold fusion reactions. If I understand his papers, Shoulders measures the energy required to accelerate clusters of electrons, and then he examines the impact these clusters have on metal targets. As far as I know, his statements about the energy balance are based on his estimates of the energy driving the electron clusters and the energy required to punch the holes. Such minute events are extremely difficult to measure, and estimates of energy needed to cause damage are approximations. This is why people use calorimeters to measure the heat from fission reactions. It is difficult for Shoulders to know precisely how efficiently his machine works -- that is, how much energy it delivers to the electron clusters, and how big the clusters are. He may have confidence in his measurements, but I expect other experts would dispute them. On the other hand, if a reasonable fraction (one-tenth or more) of the power going into the machine ends up accelerating the electrons, it would be simple for him to measure the total electric power consumption by the machine, and total heat output. Cold fusion cathodes also suffer microscopic damage, apparently caused by atomic scale reactions. See the tiny "explosions" shown in the microphotos of Ohmori's cathode, for example. These are probably caused by a concentrated series of reactions occurring in a very small space, which is comparable in scale to the "punch" from a massive electron cluster. A person might estimate how much energy is occurring at each of these damaged sites, but this estimate would be approximate and open to argument, and it would be impossible to count the damaged sites over the entire cathode surface, so the only practical way to measure the energy balance is to gather all heat from damage as it occurs. It would be very useful for someone to estimate how much energy is required to produce the explosions. The reaction products are left immediately adjacent to the explosions; it would be a good idea to analyze them by type. We cannot measure the flux and energy the way Shoulders can, but the other information he derives from his metal targets we can derive from used cold fusion cathodes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 13:12:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12931; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:02:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:01:56 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA12864 Resent-Message-ID: <"9_noi1.0.x93.pP0Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0600: [snip] >***{That's a rather oblique comment, Robin. Are you suggesting that a drug >company has deliberately released the virus in Karachi, in hopes of profit? Let's just say that it wouldn't be the first time that incredibly stupid actions were motivated by greed. >If so, I think you are going off the deep end. I'm just pointing out a possibility, suggested by a considerable coincidence in timing. >The fact of the matter is >that with routine international airline travel, and with a two-week >incubation period for the disease before the victim begins to show any >symptoms, it is not at all surprising that it has broken out of Africa. Agreed. >No >conspiracy theories are required. The only reason I doubted the story is >that I don't understand why it hasn't resulted in screaming headlines in >every newspaper on the planet. Because of that, I continue to suspect, and >hope, that the story is a hoax. --MJ}*** [snip] I share your hope, though I fear the worst, and think we should be prepared for it rather than just pretending that it isn't true so that we can forget about it, because the consequences are too frightening. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 13:59:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27370; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:50:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:50:58 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Jim Day cc: Schnurer Subject: Vacuum fluctuation Peer reviewed published paper In-Reply-To: <200011212335.eALNZ4I05632 laxmls02.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G_x4m3.0.Yh6.171Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, I was able to Read Dr, Forward's paper. Over the years I have read many many many posts of Vacuum Fluctuation being a source of power. The Paper suggests Casimir forces may be used to Store electrical energy. I have also read where this will be a Source of endless energy. According to this paper this is not true. It is possible you may be able to use this method described to store energy. This paper confirms my initial understanding of the Theory of the Casimir Force. In brief, for the lay audience, as follows; NOTE: I am VERY interested in any simple clear explanation similar to this one that leads us all to understanding and a possible application of the Casimir Force if: a] The Casimir Force exists or is just a theory that explains possibly some other effect or effects b] The force, if any, is large enough to be used for any practical application. c] If there is no usable force then to know this is good. d] or if we have maybe misunderstood the force, if any, to use what exists for some practical applictions. The Casimir Force If two conducting plates are placed close together then the Theory is The Casimir forces, if they exist, will push the plates together. To make the plates come apart you will have to use energy, at the very least, the equal energy as they were pushed together with by Casimir forces. So, to begin with, we have a possible method that will push two plates together requiring us to use energy, should we wish to separate them. The paper by Forward proposes using this as a battery to story energy so it can be later used. The paper does NOT say, in any form, you can cause the Casimir force to make energy come from nowhere. The words 'harvesting' the Casimir force are used in the paper. If taken out of context this Might lead someone to think you were harvesting some type of free energy. But this is not what the paper teches at all. The paper suggests that we use a small electrical force to push the plates apart and then when Casismir force pushes them together we could maybe get Back what we had Stored. Again, not get energy from Vacuum forces, but possibly from the electric energy we are trying to store. Less any losses, of course. ========= The Reference ============ You can see Dr. Forward's paper at-- http://www.whidbey.com/forward/pdf/tp072.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 16:27:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA10530; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:19:10 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BmyD62.0.Ra2.AK3Bw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This letter is in response to recent inflammatory comments by Jed > Rothwell directed to Hal Fox and Ken Shoulders. It contains copies of > web messages to help clarify issues that have been poorly handled by > Rothwell. Comments from the peanut gallery: I read Mr. Shoulders' response and I feel confused. Why did he become angry and defensive? Why not simply answer the questions? I read the questions over and over and can see nothing which would cause so much defensiveness. They don't appear to be an attack. They look to me like a request for information. Is Mr. Shoulders' response part of some longstanding feud between he and Mr. Rothwell? That I could understand. In that case, Mr. Shoulders would see hostile intent in those questions, while we bystanders would only see an innocent request for information. I still wonder: where did the 100:1 value come from? If it was not based upon measurements, and was just a seat-of-pants estimation, then it would be helpful if those involved would say exactly that. There's nothing wrong with making mistakes through miscommunication. Scientific Integrity: Caring so much for the truth that you happily release even the information which gives ammunition to your worst enemy. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 17:21:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30028; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:15:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:15:22 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:14:39 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3140a8.668337457 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA29994 Resent-Message-ID: <"QQKwS3.0.5L7.g64Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:26:48 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>Blood samples have been sent to the US and confirmation that the deaths have >>resulted from Crimean-Congo fever, a highly contagious Ebola-like virus, was >>expected in two to three weeks, he added. CCHF, transmitted by eating and/or >>handling sheep and goats, is relatively rare in humans but there were >>recorded cases in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998, and again in Pakistan in >>May of this year. >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner > >***{The above item raises in my mind the question of how the world has >suddenly managed to acquire multiple varieties of hemorrhagic fever. We >have Ebola in Africa, originating from some unknown and presumably >mammalian host, and now we have "Crimean-Congo fever," yet another deadly >hemorrhagic fever, arising from contact with the virus-laden, bloody >oozings of infected sheep and goats. But, until the last few years, >hemorrhagic fever was unknown, right? Nope. Hemorrhagic fevers have been known to Western medicine for centuries. Until recently, the cause of these fevers weren't known (but they were known to be highly contageous). That large populations can have a "natural" immunity to these fevers, and so not carry them, is also known. What's new about some of the fevers is that they have recently (in the past few decades) either mutated or extended their reach beyond the people having a natural immunity. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 17:33:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03038; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:32:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:32:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:37:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jim Day cc: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: Re: Vacuum fluctuation Peer reviewed published paper In-Reply-To: <200012050044.eB50ibZ06190 laxmls02.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"gBuaS1.0.Kl.XM4Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jim, The whole point of the casimir and vacuum power is based on the idea that wavelengths of Electromagnetic energy are absorbed or converted by your assembly. This is fine... except for the two practical issues: 1] there have to be EM emissions for there to be EM aborption and conversion 2] the idea of a straight beat frequency device requires interaction in a non linear manner.... the smaller the WL the smaller the bear frequency magnitude. For the first part we DO see very high frequency effects on earth... cosmic rays... but not many... the closer you get to the sun, you are doing better. For the second point we DO have materials which respond to VERY short EM ... X ray, gamma ray and out detectors ... but the same holds true. You have to have EM to exploit EM. My main point is I have seen many many many new energy papers, methods, and theories of basis of operation wherein vacuum fluctuation ... which should be rightly related to what it is... EM in space or water or air.. or other... And with these proclaimed sources the populace has embraced something taken way out of context. Let you suppose this is a viable method of making energy....by the same token you could say a bottle made of steel and filled with water and painted black is THE answer and the same basis which powers it powers much of the 'new energy', including but not limited to; most magnet interactions, very, very many plasma interactions, gravity drives and this is why nearly any conjunction of conductors, magnetic circuits and almost all of the instances of non carried reaction mass propulsion systems operate. It does not matter if these method Do operate... the theory behind them will be pushing them along.. in about 5 years when the system in question is developed. The black water filled bottle will work fine... once the key missing aspect is remedied. The missing aspect? That we are all near stronger sources of EM... but hope we don't be hurt. My primary beef is the wide use of any term or set of ideas... as itmay be taken out of context. And usually the people who are hurt the most are truly sincere persons with Very little money. Many people with pretty 'OK' incomes write up papers using neat sounding terms.... but fail to link them to reality .. and then the flag is taken up, many times by those candidates with few resources to lose. J On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Jim Day wrote: > John, > > ---------- > >From: John Schnurer > >To: Vortex , Jim Day > >Subject: Vacuum fluctuation Peer reviewed published paper > >Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2000, 1:56 PM > > > Dear Folks, > > > > I was able to Read Dr, Forward's paper. Over the years I have > >read many many many posts of Vacuum Fluctuation being a source of power. > > > > > > The Paper suggests Casimir forces may be used to Store electrical > >energy. > > > > > > I have also read where this will be a Source of endless energy. > >According to this paper this is not true. It is possible you may be able > >to use this method described to store energy. > > > > This paper confirms my initial understanding of the Theory > >of the Casimir Force. In brief, for the lay audience, as follows; > > > > NOTE: I am VERY interested in any simple clear explanation > >similar to this one that leads us all to understanding and a possible > >application of the Casimir Force if: > > > > a] The Casimir Force exists or is just a theory that explains > >possibly some other effect or effects > > b] The force, if any, is large enough to be used for any > >practical application. > > c] If there is no usable force then to know this is good. > > d] or if we have maybe misunderstood the force, if any, to use > >what exists for some practical applictions. > > [ snip ] > > What Dr. Forward says near the beginning of his paper is: > > "There is no rigorous proof known that the vacuum-fluctuation field > is a conservative field such as the gravity field. It is highly > probable that it is conservative, however, otherwise it would be > possible to design machines using the Casimir force that would allow > an infinite amount of energy to be extracted from the vacuum." > > I agree that the vacuum-fluctuation field is almost certainly conservative. > However, this has little bearing on the feasibility of extracting energy > from that field. It's true that Dr. Forward's hypothetical Casimir battery > is impractical as an energy source. It's also true that it is analogous to > a battery or a charged capacitor. But that's not the only way of getting > energy from the vacuum-fluctuation field. > > There is no doubt that the Casimir force exists, just as there is no doubt > that the vacuum-fluctuation field exists. The Casimir force and the > vacuum-fluctuation field are an accepted part of quantum physics and the > Casimir force has been measured experimentally. But the Casimir force is > just a side effect of the interaction of the vacuum-fluctuation field and > matter. The vacuum-fluctuation field is the important thing to understand. > > How much energy is contained in the vacuum-fluctuation field? It's not > infinite, but for all practical purposes it might as well be. Richard > Feynman calculated that the energy density of the vacuum-fluctuation field > is at least 10^15 times that of water. That's comparable to the energy > density of a proton. > > So what is the vacuum-fluctuation field and how can the energy be extracted? > The vacuum-fluctuation field can be thought of as electromagnetic radiation > permeating the entire universe. The longer wavelengths have less energy than > the shorter wavelengths. That is, the energy distribution is Lorentzian. > To get useful amounts of energy from the vacuum-fluctuation field, you have > to extract energy having very short wavelengths. Very short indeed. > > One way of doing this is described in US patent 5590031, issued to Franklin > B. Mead and others in 1996. See-- > > http://www.delphion.com/details?patent_number=5590031 > > There is only one difficulty, that of constructing an array of incredibly > tiny components. Perhaps this can be done when quantum-dot technology is > sufficiently developed. For now, it remains just a tantalizing possibility. > But, in principle, there is little doubt that such a device would work. > It would extract energy from the vacuum-fluctuation field and would keep on > doing so indefinitely. Would such a device prove that the vacuum-fluctuation > field is not conservative? Not at all. A sea breeze is conservative also, > but that doesn't mean that a windmill cannot extract energy from it. > > Regards, > > Jim Day > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 19:14:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00532; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:10:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:10:56 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:10:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200012050310.WAA03139 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"_q4Ud.0.E8.0p5Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0600: >[snip] >>***{That's a rather oblique comment, Robin. Are you suggesting that a drug >>company has deliberately released the virus in Karachi, in hopes of profit? > >Let's just say that it wouldn't be the first time that incredibly stupid >actions were motivated by greed. > >>If so, I think you are going off the deep end. > > >I'm just pointing out a possibility, suggested by a considerable coincidence >in timing. India is one of the countries wherein Monsanto (Creators of All Kinds of Deadly Shit) sold their genetically engineered seed that encouraged the overusage of their other poison, Round Up. Now the fields that have had those crops in them are barren to all other seeds, and will remain so for decades. I think Robin's suspicions are unlikely however, they are not highly unlikely in this day and age. I also think that there are probably quite a few Indians who would agree. It is, after all, one of the first learned marketing principles - create the product, and then create the need for the product. The free marketplace is pretty disgusting when you think about it. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:26:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24920; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:22:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:22:54 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: My summary of the Shoulders debate Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:22:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1a2p2tg3jtn5pcj6peospu7agbul6kcbbm 4ax.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204135033.00bceb30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001204154931.00b9d9a8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204154931.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA24876 Resent-Message-ID: <"taAgZ1.0.H56.zc8Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:51:50 -0500: [snip] >would be a good idea to analyze them by type. We cannot measure the flux >and energy the way Shoulders can, but the other information he derives from >his metal targets we can derive from used cold fusion cathodes. [snip] Jed, What makes you believe that the cold fusion craters are similar in nature to those produced by KS? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 22:27:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24495; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:20:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:20:52 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Decentralized Power Sources Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:20:14 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA24477 Resent-Message-ID: <"qy4Ia1.0.f-5.4b8Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:58:59 -0600: >***{The following article, previously referenced by Robin, is taken from >the web page at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/. I have inserted >comments in my usual manner. --MJ}*** Thank you for your comments on my web page Mitchell. Personally I believe that nuclear power in it's current form (i.e. based upon neutron activated fission) is inappropriate for home use, due to the guaranteed production of long lasting radioactive isotopes of elements that can and will find their way into the groundwater and into the human population. Containment is already a major headache for centralised nuclear plants. Imagine the problems with poorly maintained home units, where the potential for human error is multiplied several million fold. Needless to say, I deliberately did not add this option to my web page. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 23:39:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13002; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:38:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:38:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200012050310.WAA03139 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:33:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"rRNJG.0.4B3.Jk9Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0600: >>[snip] >>>***{That's a rather oblique comment, Robin. Are you suggesting that a drug >>>company has deliberately released the virus in Karachi, in hopes of profit? >> >>Let's just say that it wouldn't be the first time that incredibly stupid >>actions were motivated by greed. >> >>>If so, I think you are going off the deep end. >> >> >>I'm just pointing out a possibility, suggested by a considerable coincidence >>in timing. > >India is one of the countries wherein Monsanto (Creators of All Kinds of >Deadly Shit) sold their genetically engineered seed that encouraged the >overusage of their other poison, Round Up. Now the fields that have had >those crops in them are barren to all other seeds, and will remain so for >decades. ***{Horseapples. I have been using roundup for years, with no effects that even vaguely resemble your description. (For those who are unfamiliar with Roundup, check out http://www.roundup.com/.) --MJ}*** I think Robin's suspicions are unlikely however, they are not >highly unlikely in this day and age. I also think that there are probably >quite a few Indians who would agree. ***{Quite a few Indians would agree that your wife ought to be burned alive at your funeral. Does that make it a good idea? --MJ}*** It is, after all, one of the first >learned marketing principles - create the product, and then create the need >for the product. ***{That's ass-backwards. The idea is to find a need, and then create a product to fill that need. (Where did you study marketing, at Havana University? :-) --MJ}*** The free marketplace is pretty disgusting when you think >about it. ***{Your mental picture of a free society may very well be disgusting. However, it is obvious that your understanding of economics is virtually nil, and so there is no reason to expect any correlation at all between your picture and the reality. And by the way: nobody in government has ever been motivated by greed, power lust, or any other unseemly motive, right? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 4 23:39:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12946; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:38:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:38:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a3140a8.668337457 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:57:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"EZoKJ3.0.9A3.Bk9Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitchell, > >On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:26:48 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>>Blood samples have been sent to the US and confirmation that the deaths have >>>resulted from Crimean-Congo fever, a highly contagious Ebola-like virus, was >>>expected in two to three weeks, he added. CCHF, transmitted by eating and/or >>>handling sheep and goats, is relatively rare in humans but there were >>>recorded cases in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998, and again in Pakistan in >>>May of this year. >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Horace Heffner >> >>***{The above item raises in my mind the question of how the world has >>suddenly managed to acquire multiple varieties of hemorrhagic fever. We >>have Ebola in Africa, originating from some unknown and presumably >>mammalian host, and now we have "Crimean-Congo fever," yet another deadly >>hemorrhagic fever, arising from contact with the virus-laden, bloody >>oozings of infected sheep and goats. But, until the last few years, >>hemorrhagic fever was unknown, right? > >Nope. > >Hemorrhagic fevers have been known to Western medicine for centuries. >Until recently, the cause of these fevers weren't known (but they were >known to be highly contageous). That large populations can have a >"natural" immunity to these fevers, and so not carry them, is also >known. ***{Dean, I put "right?" at the end of my statement not because I felt a lot of uncertainty, but because I was in a lazy mood and didn't want to dig out a reference. As for the reference missing from my statement, take a look at http://sbcphd.org/ehs/CDC%20Arena.htm, where you will find the following: "A number of arenaviruses cause hemorrhagic disease. Junin virus, isolated in 1958, was the first to be recognized." See also http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >What's new about some of the fevers is that they have recently (in the >past few decades) either mutated or extended their reach beyond the >people having a natural immunity. > > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:06:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA04976; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:05:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:05:15 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:04:20 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a33ae33.696385538 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA04951 Resent-Message-ID: <"cLLEP2.0.gD1.B_ABw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, My comment at the end. :) On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:57:27 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>>***{The above item raises in my mind the question of how the world has >>>suddenly managed to acquire multiple varieties of hemorrhagic fever. We >>>have Ebola in Africa, originating from some unknown and presumably >>>mammalian host, and now we have "Crimean-Congo fever," yet another deadly >>>hemorrhagic fever, arising from contact with the virus-laden, bloody >>>oozings of infected sheep and goats. But, until the last few years, >>>hemorrhagic fever was unknown, right? >> >>Nope. >> >>Hemorrhagic fevers have been known to Western medicine for centuries. >>Until recently, the cause of these fevers weren't known (but they were >>known to be highly contageous). That large populations can have a >>"natural" immunity to these fevers, and so not carry them, is also >>known. > >***{Dean, I put "right?" at the end of my statement not because I felt a >lot of uncertainty, but because I was in a lazy mood and didn't want to dig >out a reference. As for the reference missing from my statement, take a >look at http://sbcphd.org/ehs/CDC%20Arena.htm, where you will find the >following: > >"A number of arenaviruses cause hemorrhagic disease. Junin virus, isolated >in 1958, was the first to be recognized." > >See also http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm. Hey. Are you changing the rules after the vote? :) What you wrote doesn't conflict with what I said. The cause has only recently been discovered (viral infection). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:08:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA05966; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:07:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:07:39 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:06:43 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a34afc0.696782359 mail.midiowa.net> References: <200012050310.WAA03139 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> In-Reply-To: <200012050310.WAA03139 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA05941 Resent-Message-ID: <"1RO633.0.4T1.R1BBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Knuke, On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:10:40 -0500, knuke lcia.com (Michael T Huffman) wrote: >India is one of the countries wherein Monsanto (Creators of All Kinds of >Deadly Shit) sold their genetically engineered seed that encouraged the >overusage of their other poison, Round Up. Now the fields that have had >those crops in them are barren to all other seeds, and will remain so for >decades. I think Robin's suspicions are unlikely however, they are not >highly unlikely in this day and age. I also think that there are probably >quite a few Indians who would agree. It is, after all, one of the first >learned marketing principles - create the product, and then create the need >for the product. The free marketplace is pretty disgusting when you think >about it. Don't blame the free market -- because Monsanto isn't operating in one. They operate in a controlled market; controlled by various governments. What Monsanto's doing is into a forced market, not a free market. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 01:08:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA05919; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:07:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:07:33 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c05e9b$e4169180$c590cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:15:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZC0SE3.0.PS1.L1BBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed - Stick to your guns - Its the same old *$%9-+ given out like Stan Meyers - I can smell it a mile off now . people not willing to readily give data and methods of measurement are best left to their own devices. Remember the old Latin - Nil carborundum Bastibus Grindum - Dont let the bastards grind you down ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; ; Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 3:35 PM Subject: Open letter from Ken Shoulders > Here is a letter from Ken Shoulders, reformatted form Acrobat .pdf with > some difficulty, and no mistakes I hope. > > This is what you get when you ask Shoulders technical questions such as > "What instruments were used to measure the power?" He considers that a > "meaningless question" and he thinks it was "clearly aimed at shooting down > comments made by Hal Fox." Actually, it was clearly intended to find out > what kind of instruments he used. I made other statements clearly aimed at > shooting down Hal Fox, for example when I said it is bad form to discuss a > secret university study at a national physics conference. When I aim to > shoot down Fox -- or anyone else -- I try to make it clear that is what I > am doing, and why I am doing it. When I ask someone what instruments he > uses, it is because I want to publish that information. > > Shoulders appears to upset by these questions about instruments and > replications. I have often asked similar questions to scientists like > Fleischman, McKubre, Storms, Ohmori, Oriani, Miles and others, and they > have always answered immediately and in detail. They do not consider this > subject "mundane" "agitating" "disturbing" or "a total waste of time." On > the contrary, since they are making claims of excess energy, they consider > these measurements to be the heart of the matter, and they are willing to > talk about them for hours at a time. They think that replication and > independent verification are how you establish credibility. That is why, > for example, Miles and McKubre have arranged so many fruitful > collaborations with other top-notch institutions to verify > helium. Needless to say, I could not agree more with their views, and > their mainstream, conservative, textbook approach. I think they would agree > with me that Shoulder's response is highly abnormal for a scientist. > > - Jed > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > AN OPEN LETTER TO AND ABOUT JED ROTHWELL-AGITATOR > > By > Ken Shoulders > Bodega, CA > > This letter is in response to recent inflammatory comments by Jed Rothwell > directed to Hal Fox and Ken Shoulders. It contains copies of web messages > to help clarify issues that have been poorly handled by Rothwell. > > Although it is not usually worthwhile to address such meaningless issues, > the depth of Rothwell's inane behavior deserves some mention so that others > can see the harm it can do to them and take precautions to avoid his > agitating and disturbing nature. On one hand, Rothwell decries the disarray > in the cold fusion club, yet; on the other hand, he constantly seeds > dissention in insidious ways. I suppose he feels this behavior enhances his > position in the field. In my opinion, it only lowers it. > > Rothwell's ability to make scientific judgment calls is abysmal from the > examples I have seen and this lack of ability is at the root of the present > misunderstanding. After some introductory remarks on the web messages that > have transpired, I will introduce the specific notions, woefully missed by > Rothwell, that are at the root of the technical arguments here. > > The first communication in this series was from Tom Valone to me requesting > a note to Rothwell about things said by Hal Fox at a recent conference. > This communication follows: Introduction by Valone and Request by Rothwell > > Subject: Fw: Questions about your research > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:50:30 -0500 > From: "Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone" > To: "Thomas Bearden" < >, "Ken Shoulders" > CC: > Tom and Ken, > Jed would like to catch up with your developments. Thanks for your replies > to him. I hope everything is going well for you both. > Tom Valone > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:59 PM > Subject: Can you please forward these messages? > > Tom: I do not have e-mail addresses for the Shoulders or Bearden. If you > do, could you please forward (or fax) the attached messages? Thanks. - JR > > Jed Rothwell > Contributing Editor > Infinite Energy Magazine > www.infinite-energy.com > > Nov. 29, 2000 > > Dear Dr. Shoulders, > > Hal Fox spoke at the American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, > 2000, Marriott Wardman Park hotel, Washington, D.C. Among other things, he > said that you have produced significant excess energy with some of your > devices. Later, in a private e-mail, he said that he observed experiments > in your laboratory and that you claim, "as much as 100 times as much energy > out as compared to energy in." This is exciting news. Could you please tell > me some of the details of your power measurement and/or calorimetry? I'm > afraid that a discussion of the theory and atomic structure of charge > cluster as would be over my head, but I would like to hear about the > instruments and techniques used to measure the excess energy. Specifically, > could you tell me: > > What instruments were used to measure the power? > > What were the power levels and total integrated energy? > > What method of metering or calorimetry was used? (I mention calorimetry > because although I presume the output is electricity, it might still be > measured with calorimetry. Some researchers prefer to measure intermittent > or spiky electricity by converting it to heat. ) > > What sort of calibration or null runs have you performed? > > How many times has this experiment has been done? > > Have there been any independent replications or third party verifications? > > Sincerely, > > Jed Rothwell > > Reply to Rothwell by Shoulders > > The questions asked were clearly aimed at shooting down comments made by > Hal Fox. I knew from previous experience that any answer to Rothwell would > likely get as screwed up as necessary to cause a commotion. My answers, as > shown below, were designed to minimize total word use and still answer > Rothwell's main question. I attempted a bit of inappropriate and misplaced > humor in the way I saw the Fox view of the world, but this is not a denial > of what Fox had said, as later falsely reported by Rothwell. I consider Hal > Fox a friend and would not demean him by calling him a liar. Rothwell is > the one who lied. He lied by not understanding the issues he purports to > know about, namely, the science of cold fusion. This is apparent in the > above list of sophomoric questions on which he asked me to respond. Answers > to the proper questions will be examined in more detail later. > > Subject: Update > Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 04:00:01 -0800 > From: Ken Shoulders > To: Jed Rothwell > CC: Tom Valone > BCC: Tom Bearden < > > [An Open Letter to Jed Rothwell] 12/2/00 (5 pages) 3 > Jed > > Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align > with physical facts. I am sure you know this and I am surprised that you > ask about his musing. > > What I intend to say in publications has been said in several of my papers. > These can be downloaded from: > > http://www.svn.net/krscfs > > When there is something more substantial to say, it will be published at a > proper time and place. > > Ken > > The Lie by Rothwell > > There were several responses by Rothwell to the above statement I made. The > first one essentially called Hal Fox a liar in reporting a conversation > with me. As shown below, he did this on the web without even presenting the > original statement being contested. In this note he said, "Shoulders denies > this." In fact, Shoulders did not deny the accuracy of the statement made > by Fox. It was the piss-poor reporting through innuendo, out-of-context > statements and just plain stupidity by Rothwell that made that claim. > > Ken Shoulders' papers > From: Jed Rothwell (view other messages by this author) > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:51:24 > > At the ANS conference, Hal Fox made some exaggerated claims about the work > of Ken Shoulders. He said that Shoulders "has achieved, he claims, as much > as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in." Shoulders denies > this. He wrote, "what I intend to say in publications has been said in > several of my papers. These can be downloaded from:" > > http://www.svn.net/krscfs > > - Jed > > The Fox Response to the Rothwell Disturbance > > After a response by Fox, Rothwell drummed up a form of inventor's disease > for Shoulders. The agitation and disturbance is now going nicely for > Rothwell. After only a few strokes on his keyboard, he has managed to cause > as much disturbance to the new energy club as his friends, and possibly > employers, in the APS had done over a period of several years. Rancor and > disorder seem to be his modus operandi. Rothwell must imagine himself as > some form of self-styled guardian of the new energy field. Just follow the > words below to see how his song goes. If allowed to run unabated, this > scenario could reach Rothwellian proportions. > > Subject: Re: Update > Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:39:43 -0500 > From: Jed Rothwell > To: Ken Shoulders , editor@infinite-energy.com > You wrote: > > Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align > with physical facts. I am sure you know this and I am surprised that you > ask about his musing. > > I asked because he made the statements during a presentation at the > American Nuclear Society conference. It is bad form for him to "muse" in > that situation. > > - Jed > > Hal Fox: see Shoulder's patent > From: Jed Rothwell (view other messages by this author) > Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:28:30 > > How Fox wrote to me: "The [Shoulders] patent states about 30 times as much > energy out as input. Shoulders told me he had obtained as much as 100. > Perhaps he enjoys indulging in terminologic inexactitudes." I have not seen > the patent, but I presume Hal got this right. > > I do not know what to make of this weird situation. It would appear the > inventor is denying valuable claims made in his own patent. Shoulders told > me very clearly that he has not seen such large excess energy. I asked him > to describe the instruments used to detect the energy, but he did not > respond. It would seem I owe Hal Fox an apology, and perhaps Shoulders does to. > > I wish that Shoulders would clarify the situation but he does not seem > inclined to do so. Unless I hear more from him, I suppose this claim must > end up in the usual morass of confusion. If he is seeing excess energy, and > it is even greater than the dramatic claims in the patent, I do not > understand why he would want to hide the fact. Perhaps he is suffering from > a case of the inventor's disease. > > - Jed > > Root Technical Cause for the Disagreement > > The root technical cause for the misunderstandings being aired here stems > from the lack of an agreed upon definition of what is commonly called "over > unity". In the end, there is only one workable definition of the term. That > definition would be applied to a machine capable of sustaining itself and > having a surplus of output energy for external consumption. Unfortunately, > that term is not good for working on the process during the early stages of > development, although many use it due to a lack of understanding of the > basic process under investigation. > > The energy production process we all seek is not a single, homogenous > process that produces equal energy everywhere within the apparatus. It is > instead, a violent, disruptive process given to exploding material from the > active sites and showing widely scattered levels of local activity. Yet, > the primary input energy is somewhat evenly distributed throughout the > apparatus. The gain under discussion here is therefore variable from > location to location. > > With the highly variable local conditions that have been seen by most > experimenters in the field, one thing is clear, and that is, most > measurements are based on an average yield for the process. This is because > most of the experimental methods cannot attend the detailed process but are > inherently averaging processes. This is certainly true for calorimetry. > Calorimetry is perhaps the worst process possible for determining the root > cause of the effects seen. Yet, this root must be found. The EV technique > excels in this search. > > In working with EVs, I look at the details of the energy production process > on a shot-by-shot basis. I see an enormous range of energy outputs for the > same energy input for each site activated. Under these conditions, I can > see in one experiment a range of "over unity" that varies between 50% and > several thousand. Of course, after a period of time, and many individual > reactions, the tyranny of averages finally catches up with you. But before > that average is applied, one can claim any number between 0.5 and 3,000, > depending on which group of shots you look at. There is an analogy here to > gambling against the house odds. The money you win and can take home > largely depends on when you stop gambling. Until the knowledge of the > energy conversion process grows sufficiently to give you the house odds, > you are just a penny ante player. > > As bad as it sounds at first, there is real advantage in working this way > when seeking the answers we need and few technologies are so generous in > yielding information as EV technology. Using the EV to excite a reaction in > material allows one to know the precise amount of input energy due to the > quantized nature of the EV. The location of the reaction is accurately > known and the reaction products can be analyzed by type, flux and energy > without interference from the slop-jar conditions most cold-fusion-like > processes occur in. When Rothwell wants me to answer the mundane questions > he is accustomed to asking, it almost makes me ill because such methods and > answers are a total waste of time. The sad thing is that he will not be > able to either see this or change his ways because he only follows the > movements of others and does nothing himself. > > Now we come to the crux of this discussion. What should one say for the > answer to the question of what the gain is? I am perfectly happy to say > that it is well over a thousand on the good shots, and with more effort > applied to the age-old uniformity problem, the entire machine could > function with the same number. The technical problem for me, and always has > been, is how to keep from progressively destroying the highly ordered > machine built to produce such good results. At the present time, the higher > the gain, the higher the deterioration rate of the machine. > > And now we come to the key question. What should Hal Fox have said at the > meeting? As far as I am concerned, he can say anything he wants to say as > long as he adds a little qualification for the unsophisticated audience. > Actually, no numbers matter until the exploratory job is finished and the > final machine is measured. Unfortunately, the audience is so conditioned to > the wrong method of understanding and describing the process of gradual > improvement that no amount of discussion about what an EV does will placate > them. > > Under the prevailing conditions, it is best to say nothing. > > Here are a couple of final thoughts for Jed Rothwell. This is the end of > the useless discussion of who said what about whatever, as I do not intend > to respond to the gibberish you spew. If you are really inclined to perform > a valuable service for this new energy field, get out of it. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 07:21:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07638; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:53 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094537.02cc0e78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:02:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7KinE3.0.9t1.TTGBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >I attempted a bit of inappropriate and misplaced > >humor in the way I saw the Fox view of the world, but this is not a denial > >of what Fox had said, as later falsely reported by Rothwell. > >What is going on in the above? My guess is that Shoulders did not expect >Rothwell to go public regarding his original remark about Fox, Shoulders and Fox both knew from the start that I am going public. I e-mailed Fox a draft of the article I am writing for I.E. I always give people a chance to comment on articles criticizing their work. Based on Fox's comments, I change the draft considerably, and send him a new version. All drafts have included the sentence posted here: "[Fox] said that Shoulders 'has achieved, he claims, as much as 100 times as much energy out as compared to energy in.' Shoulders denies this." I did not quote Shoulders verbatim, "rendering interpretations that do not always align with physical facts," because I thought that was a little harsh, and a little difficult to understand. I thought it would be better to paraphrase him by saying "denies." I still think it was a denial. >and hence >the remark in question was intended to placate Rothwell without irritating >Fox. No, he copied his remarks to Fox. The e-mail was addressed to both of us. > However, Rothwell then went public with Shoulders' implied denial, >forcing him to choose between offending Rothwell and offending Fox. Result: >he chose to offend the person he liked the least--i.e., Rothwell. I don't follow this. Who did what to whom? Anyway, Shoulders sent me a letter and suggested I post it to various places, so I did. I figured my audience has a right to hear his side of the story. That's really all there is to it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 07:21:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07644; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:44:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Response from Bearden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"O5OLA1.0.Bt1.TTGBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a response from Tom Bearden, and my response to him. He seems to be saying that he cannot make the machine self sustain even though it is "far more efficient" than today's generators and battery systems. This makes no sense to me. As I wrote in my response: "Batteries are already 95% efficient. There is no leeway to make a 'tremendous' improvement; you can only improve them by a few percent. If you can make a battery work two or three times more 'efficiently' than any battery today, by definition you have created an over unity device which can run forever." I post this as a service to readers here. Based on my limited but practical knowledge of thermodynamics, batteries, and electric motor performance, Bearden's statements appear to be nonsense and ignorant doubletalk. Let the readers decide. I admit, I know nothing about Prigogine and his 1977 Nobel Prize, but I very much doubt it opened the way to make "tremendous" improvements in efficiency to machines that have already achieved 95% of their maximum potential performance. Some people feel the Laws of Thermodynamics are invalid, which means the potential theoretical performance of heat engines and batteries has been incorrectly stated by the textbooks. Is this what Bearden is saying? The performance barrier was redefined by Prigogine? The change has not been reflected in any engineering or physics textbook on my shelf, many of which were published after 1977. I am sure I do understand the conventional interpretations of Thermodynamics, and I am sure the textbooks disagree with Bearden. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Reply-To: From: "Tom Bearden" To: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: RE: Response from Tom Bearden Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:42:16 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal Jed, As we said, we are too busy trying to get work done to engage in debates or diatribes. Nothing we wrote to Jed was "bait", and to insinuate such is not science but a sly ad hominem attack. We will answer this once and once only. Skepticism is healthy! We welcome friendly skeptics. Our own team has two very healthy skeptics on it. But we are also rather amused at those who have never experienced or even been involved with a working COP>1.0 EM system, yet already " know all about it". They don't. I will simply state that one runs into EM phenomena that one has no prior basic experience in. And it is not in your textbook, or any other scientific paper. In case the readers do not recall what scientific method prescribes: To have a valid scientific experiment, it must be (1) independently replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed by the results. Nothing else is required by the scientific method. Period. If you yourself wish to demand something else, you are not practicing science but some other agenda. And you are not discussing the experiment at hand, but another experiment. In short, you are setting up a deliberate "straw man" which has nothing to do with the experiment at hand, then knocking down that straw man as if that meant something. What has that got to do with the science of COP>1.0 EM power systems per se? Absolutely nothing. Forget the speculations and opinions and straw men and sly innuendoes. We have not publicly advertised a "closed loop" MEG system. We have advertised a COP = 10.0 EM power system, and are in process of having it (1) independently replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed. Your common home heat pump, under good conditions, exhibits COP = 4.0 or so. You use that heat pump instead of the resistor heating strips, whenever possible, because when you switch on the COP<1.0 heating elements you pay like the dickens! Do you have your home heat pump close-looped? Why not, if that is the "criterion" for overunity? Is your heat pump "suspicious" as to overunity, just because it is not self-powering? Try using a heat pump with COP<1.0 and watch your heating bills go up, then tell me that you are still suspicious of your heat pump actually having COP>1.0 unless it is "closed loop" and self powering. Your pocketbook and your power bills will clearly tell you the difference between COP = 4.0 and COP<1.0. There is no law of nature requiring close looping (self-powering) in order to achieve a heat pump having a COP>1.0, and to assert such a thesis or suspicion that a heat pump cannot exhibit COP>1.0 without close-looping easily is to reveal one's serious lack of knowledge of what COP rigorously is and means as far as utility bills go. COP is the amount of average power you produce in the load, divided by the average amount of power you yourself must input and pay for. Period. Let me explain it very rigorously. Whether we are speaking of EM systems or other types of systems, thermodynamically there are two major system types: (1) those systems that are in equilibrium with their environment, and (2) those systems that are far from equilibrium with their environment. Everyone is familiar with type (1) systems, since that is just classical thermodynamics and the dreaded second law rigorously applies. Such a system can never exhibit COP>1.0, and will not be further discussed. The second class of system -- a type (2) system -- is what is really interesting when we are seeking to develop EM power systems, since all practical EM power systems presently have COP<1.0. First, check why Prigogine was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1977, then check any good references on type (2) system thermodynamics. We are claiming to have developed a working class (2) EM power system rather than the conventional type (1) system. A type (2) thermodynamic system is permitted to exhibit one or more of five marvelous functions: (a) self-ordering, (b) self-oscillation or self-rotation, (c) outputting more energy than one oneself must input (the excess energy is freely received from the environment, (d) powering itself and its load (all the energy is freely received from the vacuum), and (e) exhibiting negentropy. We claim that our MEG system exhibits (a), (c), and (e) characteristics. We have not publicly claimed that our system exhibits (d) characteristics, for example. Note that only case (d) is a self-powering system (close-looped system, in the case of EM power systems). We are not at this time advertising the MEG as a case (d) closed-loop disequilibrium system, but as a case (c) open disequilibrium system. There is no scientific requirement that a case (c) system must also be a case (d) system, or else there must be some "suspicion" as to its ability to be a case (c) system. To assert such a conjecture -- which is what the respondent did -- is simply to advance a non sequitur. So what, one might ask, is the big deal about a type (c) MEG system exhibiting COP = 10? Lots of things! As examples: Such a system will give you ten times as much performance as a totally superconductive system could give you. Applied to powering your home, it would dramatically reduce your powerline demand and dramatically reduce your utility bills (to less than a tenth, in a linear cost approximation). Applied to powering an electrical automobile, such a system will allow that either (1) the car can go ten times the distance on its batteries on a single charge as it can without the COP = 10 MEG, or (2) batteries only one-tenth the capacity can be used to power the same car the same distance, using the MEG. Either way, you get a tremendous improvement in electrical vehicles, in the cost of buying and operating them, costs of batteries, etc. We need not point out that by replacing some of the gasoline burners you also avoid a lot of hydrocarbon combustion, and therefore make a major contribution to cleaning up the environment from the present combustion byproduct pollutions. What is the objection to doing that? How on earth can any logical person object to developing a system to do that? Anyway, Magnetic Energy Ltd. advertises an overunity system and we will rigorously deliver an overunity EM system for full independent testing and independent replication. Period. That is all that any private company owes anyone. If you prefer a closed loop system instead of the advertised MEG system, then go discover, develop, and build one yourself. Particularly if it's so simple. And read my words carefully. I did not say we have not close-looped the MEG. Read the words again, till you understand that. I simply said we are not advertising a closed-loop MEG at this time. We have already made the arrangements for both the independent replication and the independent testing of the COP=10 MEG system, and are simply waiting on the institutes involved to schedule the work. We have sold no stock. Not a cent of taxpayer money has gone into this very long and arduous project. Seven or more years of very hard work and effort have gone into it. If your dictionary describes that as "suspicious", then you need a new dictionary. Putting it simply, whether a reader wants a self-powering system or not, matters not one whit to what we are doing and what we have advertised. What matters is the hard replication, and the hard independent testing, of a COP = 10 MEG unit. We have been fortunate to be able to add one other thing as a great bonus. The AIAS, spearheaded by Dr. Myron Evans, has also prepared a rigorous theoretical explanation of the MEG's overunity action in the extended symmetry electrodynamics -- O(3) symmetry -- required to explain it. That paper with multiple authors has already been submitted to a leading physics journal. It will face rigorous peer review. Anyway, any reader "dissatisfied" or "suspicious" of our procedure, which rigorously fulfils all requirements of the scientific method, is not practicing science or advocating scientific method. He or she is perfectly free to go develop a close-looped EM system of some sort themselves if they so wish. Please do so if you do not like our working patent-pending COP = 10 system. Fact is, the MEG works and works beautifully as advertised, in the form we have developed it in. It will be independently tested and independently validated or refuted by impeccable scientists, engineers, and institutes. And with success, it will be scaled up into COP>1.0 power units that are marketed commercially. Anyone who doesn't think that reducing the public's utility bills to, say, one tenth their present value is useful, needs to have his head examined. Anyone who cannot translate that kind of performance into a reduction of the escalating need for oil for electricity as such units (we are not the only COP>1.0 inventors, by any means!) are deployed on the world market, needs to learn algebra again. We also point out that, if the need for oil can be lessened, the oil prices will also come down and everyone will also benefit from that, whether they buy a MEG unit or not. Every bit of that can be done with COP = 10.0, whether or not we ever show a close-looped device publicly. Tom Bearden -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 10:35 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com; soliton@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Response from Tom Bearden Jones Beene wrote: >Despite Tom Bearden's long and seemingly open response to Jed's inquiry, >it would >be foolish to take the bait and give these unsubstantiated claims much >credence, >no matter how much we might desire them to be true. Let me rush in to say that I do not endorse or attack Bearden. I am merely relaying his comments. I have not read enough about his work to form an opinion. >If there was a single self-running prototype, no matter how crude it >looked, it >is absurd to think that it would not immediately be put on the cover of Time, >Scientific American, Wall Street Journal, etc. for the world to see. NO >rational >scientist or even dyed-in-the-wool skeptic, not even Park himself, would >dare to >question a self-running prototype. Well . . . I do not think the reaction would be as favorable as that. I suppose it would take several months before Time and Scientific American were persuaded. It would certainly persuade me! It would persuade many legitimate scientists and investors, and he would be swamped with money offered under very favorable terms. So if Bearden has anything like a self-sustaining motor, I cannot imagine why he would hide it. I do not know why his present machine cannot be made to self-sustain, so this does seem a little suspicious. Certainly, I would consider it highly unethical for Bearden to begin selling stock before he completes this essential test. In the past, when I've asked people who claim pure electric output why they have not made the machines self-sustain, they have come up with complex explanations about erratic waveforms and power losses, which I do not fully understand. I suspect these are bogus excuses, but I do not have enough confidence in my knowledge of electricity to be sure. All I know is that ordinary electric motors are 80% to 90% efficient, and batteries and capacitors are 90% or more efficient, so it would not take much excess power to make a "magic" electric motor sustain itself. >Oh yes. The main thing Bearden forgot to mention is that Naudin has been >trying >for several weeks to go "self-running" and it just isn't happening. Let us give credit to Naudin for taking this obvious and essential step. >wildly inaccurate readings. On his behalf, he has not actually made the >claim of >OU and has also indicated that he will not make such a claim until he can go >self-powered. Yes. Good for him! >In the mean time, I would be a little careful about that "Magnetic Energy >Limited" IPO. I would be VERY careful, and I certainly hope that nothing I have published will be construed as an endorsement. Please note that I have copied this response to Bearden. I trust he will take it in a proper, businesslike frame of mind, unlike some other inventors I have corresponded with recently! - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - You wrote >We >have not publicly advertised a "closed loop" MEG system. We have >advertised >a COP = 10.0 EM power system, and are in process of having it (1) >independently replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed. That's interesting and encouraging, but if you have a moment, can you please tell me: Why haven't you closed the loop? Is there some physical limitation that prevents this? Correct me if I am wrong, but "COP = 10.0" means the device puts out to 10 times more electric power that it consumes. That should be more than enough to overcome losses from any electric motor. I think a self-sustaining closed loop system would be extremely convincing. Do you agree it would be? >Your common home heat pump, under good conditions, exhibits COP = 4.0 or so. >You use that heat pump instead of the resistor heating strips, whenever possible, because when you switch on the COP<1.0 heating elements you pay >like the dickens! Do you have your home heat pump close-looped? No, that's physically impossible. That would violate the laws of thermodynamics. > Why not, >if that is the "criterion" for overunity? Is your heat pump "suspicious" as >to overunity, just because it is not self-powering? It is not over unity. It merely moves energy from one place to another. Does your device to something like that? >Applied to powering your home, it would dramatically reduce >your powerline demand and dramatically reduce your utility bills (to less >than a tenth, in a linear cost approximation). Applied to powering an >electrical automobile, such a system will allow that either (1) the car can >go ten times the distance on its batteries on a single charge as it can >without the COP = 10 MEG, or (2) batteries only one-tenth the capacity can >be used to power the same car the same distance, using the MEG. If these claims are true, then regardless of the nature of the machine, I see no reason why it cannot be made into a "perpetual motion machine" (that pulls in energy from the environment, as you claim). Your car could pull another electric car with regenerative braking, and have the second car recharge while the first discharges. Then the second car takes over. > Either way, >you get a tremendous improvement in electrical vehicles, in the cost of >buying and operating them, costs of batteries, etc. Batteries are already 95% efficient. There is no leeway to make a "tremendous" improvement; you can only improve them by a few percent. If you can make a battery work two or three times more "efficiently" than any battery today, by definition you have created an over unity device which can run forever. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 07:21:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07676; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:56 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205100230.00ba0b58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:18:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LIl0o3.0.rt1.VTGBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >I read Mr. Shoulders' response and I feel confused. Why did he become >angry and defensive? Why not simply answer the questions? Why not indeed? I have asked exactly the same questions to countless scientists, and not one as ever taken offense or responded the way Shoulders did. > I read the >questions over and over and can see nothing which would cause so much >defensiveness. They don't appear to be an attack. They look to me like a >request for information. Of course they were! When I publish an attack you always know that's what it is. >Is Mr. Shoulders' response part of some longstanding feud between he and >Mr. Rothwell? Nope. I have only met the man once, and TAMU years ago. I have never investigated or commented on his claims. When I met him at TAMU I recall that I asked him similar questions but he did not respond. He did not fly off at the handle, but he did not answer either, so I ignored him. >I still wonder: where did the 100:1 value come from? If it was not based >upon measurements, and was just a seat-of-pants estimation, then it would >be helpful if those involved would say exactly that. There's nothing >wrong with making mistakes through miscommunication. As far as I can tell from the papers and from comments by Hal Fox, the 100:1 is an extrapolation based on estimates of the amount of energy delivered to the electron clusters, and the impact energy of the clusters. That is what I wrote in my summary which I sent to Fox and Shoulders yesterday, and neither of them has denied it. Today Fox responded: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - However, Jed, I would like to provide you with a simple method of measuring excess output from Shoulders' invention. This has been written, presented, published in several forms. A charge cluster is best formed by use of a very steep voltage gradient. If one could do so, it would be great to use pulse widths of a few pico-seconds. However, those skilled in the art know that it is difficult to make high-voltage, short duration pulses. This was one of the critical problems that had to be partially solved to make an effective atom bomb. Assume you have a charge cluster emitter and the charge cluster is to be used to travel through and induce a current in an output coil. The key to making excess energy output is to keep the input electrical pulse as short as possible, make the pulse as energetic as possible, and stretch the output induced pulse as wide as possible. Under reasonable circumstances, with some degree of skill in making the charge cluster emitter, one can get ten times (or more) energy out as compared to energy input. This is what I report in my new-energy review papers and presentations. These measurements have nothing to do with calorimetry and there would be no place for calorimetry in making such measurements (at least not at this stage). [End of Fox quote] - - - - - - - - - - I disagree. I wrote to Fox: You have not described a simple method of measuring energy. The measurements called for in your methodology might be incorrect by a very large margin. People can reasonably argue about the length of the pulse or the force of the charter cluster impact. . . . I disagree [about calorimetry]. I think Fleischmann's point about nuclear fission and calorimetry proves that there may well be a place for calorimetry at this stage. It is far simpler and more believable than the measurements you described above. . . . If his device is outputting 100 times input, it should be very easy to make it produce heat or some other easily form of energy [simple to measure]. Unless you mean it takes one millionth part of the input power and multiplies it 100 times. Perhaps someone else can interpret Shoulders' papers and Fox's statement better than I? Although it hardly seems worth the effort. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 07:34:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13405; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:33:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:33:06 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205101928.02cacfe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:33:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: My summary of the Shoulders debate In-Reply-To: <1a2p2tg3jtn5pcj6peospu7agbul6kcbbm 4ax.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204154931.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001204135033.00bceb30 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001204154931.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"AzwYz.0.NH3.ngGBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >What makes you believe that the cold fusion craters are similar in nature to >those produced by KS? I don't mean that the origin or cause is similar. The KS craters are caused by an impact; the CF craters are caused by explosions of vaporized metal from within the metal. However, there are similar in that you could estimate the amount of energy required to make them. The material expelled from the CF craters falls right next to them, where it can be found and analyzed. It contains elements with unnatural isotopic ratios. There is plenty of concentrated energy in the KS device. If his estimates of the power delivered to the stream of particles is incorrect, the energy balance might be zero and there might not be any excess. Ohmori's CF device is a completely different story. The explosions occurred during very quiet, low-power electrolysis which cannot possibly concentrate energy into areas small enough to vaporize metal. There is no mechanism for that. It cannot even raise the temperature of the metal more than a few degrees. The possibility that these explosions are caused by conventional chemistry is zero to 10 decimal places. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 09:10:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17992; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:08:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:08:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a33ae33.696385538 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:52:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"utzUe.0.nO4.64IBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitchell, > >My comment at the end. :) > >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:57:27 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>>>***{The above item raises in my mind the question of how the world has >>>>suddenly managed to acquire multiple varieties of hemorrhagic fever. We >>>>have Ebola in Africa, originating from some unknown and presumably >>>>mammalian host, and now we have "Crimean-Congo fever," yet another deadly >>>>hemorrhagic fever, arising from contact with the virus-laden, bloody >>>>oozings of infected sheep and goats. But, until the last few years, >>>>hemorrhagic fever was unknown, right? >>> >>>Nope. >>> >>>Hemorrhagic fevers have been known to Western medicine for centuries. >>>Until recently, the cause of these fevers weren't known (but they were >>>known to be highly contageous). That large populations can have a >>>"natural" immunity to these fevers, and so not carry them, is also >>>known. >> >>***{Dean, I put "right?" at the end of my statement not because I felt a >>lot of uncertainty, but because I was in a lazy mood and didn't want to dig >>out a reference. As for the reference missing from my statement, take a >>look at http://sbcphd.org/ehs/CDC%20Arena.htm, where you will find the >>following: >> >>"A number of arenaviruses cause hemorrhagic disease. Junin virus, isolated >>in 1958, was the first to be recognized." >> >>See also http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm. > >Hey. Are you changing the rules after the vote? :) > >What you wrote doesn't conflict with what I said. The cause has only >recently been discovered (viral infection). ***{Hi Dean. The issue, of course, is whether the disease is newly emergent, not whether the cause has only recently been identified to be a virus; and if you had carefully read the second reference, above, you would have realized that these are, in fact, newly emergent diseases. An excerpt has been attached below. --MJ}*** > "SOUTH AMERICAN HEMORRHAGIC FEVERS > Source: PAHO press release, June 15, 1995 > The South American arenaviruses provide an important example of how > exploitation of new areas for human settlement and agriculture will > increase the likelihood that new infectious diseases will emerge. ***{Note the above statement, which refers to the South American arenaviruses as "new infectious diseases." I have read literally dozens of similar statements about other Arenaviruses in recent years--e.g. about Ebola and Lassa fever, which are African arenaviruses--and I find the prevailing explanation that humans are somehow just beginning to come into contact with the animals which harbor them to be utterly unbelievable. To listen to the proponents of such theories, you would think that mankind only landed on planet Earth in the last 50 years or so. In fact, however, human beings have been living in *all* of these supposedly pristine areas for literally thousands of years. If these diseases had been present in rodent or other host populations throughout that interval, local human populations would have developed high levels of immunity to them by now, and we simply would not see the sorts of fatality rates we are seeing in these outbreaks. Another bizarre aspect of the situation is the fact that *all* of these hemorrhagic fevers are caused by arenaviruses--which means: by viruses that are highly similar in their appearance, structure, and capabilities--despite their global distribution. Such a state of affairs seems more supportive of an extraterrestrial origin than of an origin here on Earth, though I am not yet firmly committed to such an explanation. In any case, you can lay all of my speculations to rest in this regard, by simply citing a solid reference supporting your contention that these types of hemorrhagic fevers--i.e., caused by arenaviruses--have been known to Western medicine for hundreds of years. The question is, can you do it? :-) --MJ}*** A new > member of this group of rodent-borne viruses has been discovered on the > average of every three years since the first was isolated in 1956. Some > are not pathogenic for humans, but 5 cause human disease and 3 of these > are important regional health problems in Argentina (Junin virus; > Argentine hemorrhagic fever), Bolivia (Machupo virus; Bolivian hemorrhagic > fever), and Venezuela (Guanarito virus; Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever). > Each of these diseases exemplifies a different aspect of the natural > history of these viruses and their interaction with man. Argentine > hemorrhagic fever was first described in the rich agricultural zones of > the pampas in 1958 and has spread so that it now affects 10 times the > initial area and infects several hundreds of people annually. Neither the > origin of the virus nor the cause for its spread through the rodents that > serve as its reservoir and vector are known. The Bolivian virus emerged in > the early 1960's as humans increasingly settled the verdant plains east of > the Andes and began to suffer from "black typhus" (the name initially used > locally for Bolivian hemorrhagic fever) as increasing numbers of the > infected rodents entered their homes. Machupo virus and Bolivian > hemorrhagic fever re-emerged in 1994, affecting 5 of 7 household members > residing near the city of Magdalena in the remote and sparsely populated > Bolivian Department of Beni The Venezuelan virus was first discovered in > 1990 in a zone in which tropical forest was removed to permit the > establishment of small farms and ranches. Apparently, a local rodent > species that carries the virus found the cleared areas hospitable and > multiplied in proportion to the increased food supplies available in > fields and houses. The common themes that run through the story of these > viruses are that multiple different viruses exist, humans become involved > when entering new areas where viruses are circulating, that rodents > carrying the viruses can enter ecologically disturbed areas to carry > infection to humans, and that the viruses may spread to involve increasing > geographic areas. " (Source: http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm.) ***{Since it is well known that ejecta from large impactors (asteroids and comets) often achieve escape velocity, since viruses (and bacterial spores) can survive in the vacuum of space, and since life has undoubtedly evolved on an incomprehensibly vast number of planets, it inexorably follows that viruses and some types of bacteria must be spread from planet to planet as a matter of routine. Result: we have a plausible hypothesis to explain these newly emergent hemorrhagic fevers: that they are of extraterrestrial origin. I'm not saying I believe it is true, mind you; but it certainly seems plausible enough to justify kicking it around for awhile. --MJ}*** > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:36:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13661; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:33:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:28:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Resent-Message-ID: <"T-LQe2.0.NL3.aJJBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> This letter is in response to recent inflammatory comments by Jed >> Rothwell directed to Hal Fox and Ken Shoulders. It contains copies of >> web messages to help clarify issues that have been poorly handled by >> Rothwell. > > >Comments from the peanut gallery: > >I read Mr. Shoulders' response and I feel confused. Why did he become >angry and defensive? Why not simply answer the questions? I read the >questions over and over and can see nothing which would cause so much >defensiveness. They don't appear to be an attack. They look to me like a >request for information. ***{Most people, including most scientists, try to avoid arguing with their colleagues unless there is a tangible benefit--e.g., useful information--associated with doing so, and as a consequence they tend to resent people who drag them into pointless conflicts. Result: they tend to resent Jed Rothwell, because his stock in trade is to compare the statements of different scientists, find supposed contradictions, and then say, in effect: "Why don't you and him fight?" Indeed, if you will read Shoulders' comments closely, you will find that he all but said precisely that: "On one hand, Rothwell decries the disarray in the cold fusion club; yet, on the other hand, he constantly seeds dissention in insidious ways." Is it fair of scientists to react in this way to what appears to be a sincere attempt on Rothwell's part to extract meaningful information from them? To answer that, it is necessary to grasp the nature of the underlying problem. Note, for example, that there was no reason for Rothwell to approach Shoulders the way he did. He didn't have to say, in effect: "Fox said you claimed a COP of 100. Is that true?" By putting it that way, he put Shoulders in an adversarial position with respect to Fox, thereby irritating the hell out of Shoulders. A better way to approach the matter would have been to say: "What kind of COP are you getting?" Rothwell, however, is apparently not satisfied to merely obtain information about the science. In addition, he seems to want to leaven his writings with juicy gossip about the scientists whom he deems to be uncooperative--negative information that he can obtain only by setting the various participants against one another. He is also prone to dwell on empty suspicions (" I do not know why his present machine cannot be made to self-sustain, so this does seem a little suspicious."), arbitrary moral constructs pulled out of thin air ("I would consider it highly unethical for Bearden to begin selling stock before he completes this essential test."), unsubstantiated pejoratives obtained from opposition lawyers (e.g., claiming that Newman defrauded an investor), etc. The idea seems to be that the science is not interesting enough to stand on its own merits. Gossip, innuendo, and similar insubstantial junk must be added to spice up the material, thereby broadening the readership. The technique, in short, is drawn directly from the classic repertoire of yellow journalism. This above analysis, of course, is a personal opinion that I have stated in various ways in this group before, and I doubt that it will have any more impact this time around than it had previously. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Is Mr. Shoulders' response part of some longstanding feud between he and >Mr. Rothwell? That I could understand. In that case, Mr. Shoulders would >see hostile intent in those questions, while we bystanders would only see >an innocent request for information. > >I still wonder: where did the 100:1 value come from? If it was not based >upon measurements, and was just a seat-of-pants estimation, then it would >be helpful if those involved would say exactly that. There's nothing >wrong with making mistakes through miscommunication. > > > Scientific Integrity: Caring so much for the truth that you > happily release even the information which gives ammunition to > your worst enemy. ***{That's fine and dandy, but the main problem stems from the various insubstantial distractions that Rothwell mixes into his scientific commentary, and from the effect that those distractions have on the free flow of scientific information. The fact of the matter is that he ticks many scientists off by making irritating and manifestly irrelevant comments, and they punish him by choking off the flow of information about their activities. You can say that they ought to care enough about "the truth" to ignore such distractions; but the fact is that many of them are not Saints, and are going to respond negatively. Thus if he intends to function effectively as a journalist, he is going to have to clean up his act. (He won't, of course. Denial, as they say, is not a river in Egypt. :-) --MJ}*** > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:59:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20603; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:56:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:56:58 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <6c.58aa9c2.275e9450 aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:56:16 EST Subject: History channel, power plants, tonight, USA To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114 Resent-Message-ID: <"IRQjN.0.o15.vfJBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thought you people in the US might want to know this. Thanks, Butch As part of its 'Modern Marvels' series the History Channel will be featuring a special on electricity entitled: 'Power Plants' this Tuesday evening, December 5th. The show will trace the development and commercialization of electricity from the early days of Thomas Edison to the present and end with a hopeful view of the future. Buildings designed by Solar Design Associates that produce their electricity directly from the sun that falls on their roofs will be featured as a view into the coming century when solar power will be common place. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 10:59:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19977; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:55:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:55:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uhEFm2.0.2u4.KeJBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/hot_water.html#Experiments An interesting "rediscovery" of a physical effect known centuries ago. - JR Abstract Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counter- intuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real. It has been seen and studied in numerous experiments. While this phenomenon has been known for centuries, and was described by Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes [1-3], it was not introduced to the modern scientific community until 1969, by a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba. Both the early scientific history of this effect, and the story of Mpemba's rediscovery of it, are interesting in their own right -- Mpemba's story in particular provides a dramatic parable against making snap judgements about what is impossible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 11:51:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10712; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:46:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 11:26:28 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Response from Bearden To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A2D4164.CF645795 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"PRFVu1.0.Fd2.jOKBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Even at the risk of starting an unintended flame war with Bearden's supporters (as he says he will issue no further statements himself), I feel obliged to respond to his remarks, which are not only misleading but demonstrate either a profound ignorance of the serious issues which are at stake here - or an intent to deceive. Let me also say up front, since Bearden brought it up, that the following response will not fall into an "ad hominem" attack on him personally, subject to these caveats. It is not to ad hominem to call a particular statement profoundly ignorant, especially when that statement is intended to express a scientifically valid viewpoint but instead reflects upon the issuer's basic lack of understanding of the principles involved - or is evidence of an intent to mislead... again that is so long as one refrains from personal attacks on the individual. On the other hand, when an individual has over a period of years engaged in a pattern of conduct that is ostensibly scientific, but whose net effect borders on the fraudulent, then it is also fair game to bring up that pattern of conduct to explain a present situation, so long as one refrains from mentioning other conduct unrelated to the present scientific issue being discussed. > T.B.: As we said, we are too busy trying to get work done to engage in debates > or diatribes. Nothing we wrote to Jed was "bait", and to insinuate such is > not science but a sly ad hominem attack. We will answer this once and > once only. > > Skepticism is healthy! We welcome friendly skeptics. Our own team has > two very healthy skeptics on it. But we are also rather amused at those > who have never experienced or even been involved with a working COP>1.0 > EM system, yet already " know all about it". They don't. I will simply > state that one runs into EM phenomena that one has no prior basic > experience in. And it is not in your textbook, or any other scientific paper. Good. I am pleased that you welcome skepticism. Let me first inform you that many of the members of this forum are experimenters themselves, many have worked with and debunked putative OU claims, and almost all have the fervent desire to see any aspect of "free energy" technology fully developed in order to free our nation from a chronic and debilitating reliance on fossil fuels. But there is a big difference between desire and gullibility. If you really have something valid with the MEG, we will be your most vocal supporters! Having said that, let me say that when an individual steps up to promote a promising technology by making claims that cannot be substantiated, and then pitches his stock offering, it reflects badly on this whole community. And we should take that very seriously. We all are starved for funding and when someone appears with only vapid promises and a tin cup, then we must view his statements with far more skepticism than normal. Such was the case with Joseph Newman, whose work has proven to be little more than a sham excuse to bleed funding from gullible idealists. > In case the readers do not recall what scientific method prescribes: > To have a valid scientific experiment, it must be (1) independently > replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed by the results. > Nothing else is required by the scientific method. Period. If you yourself > wish to demand something else, you are not practicing science but some > other agenda. If this is your viewpoint, then why are you distorting the work of Naudin? He has not claimed to validate your work and it is inappropriate to point to certain questionable scope reading on his web site that are merely "work in progress." You state that these support a COP>1. They do not, sir, and I believe that you know that they do not. Furthermore, could it be that the only real reason that you refuse to disclose the "institutes" that have validated your work, is that you have fostered on them some incorrect and self-serving definition of what constitutes a COP > 1 ? > And you are not discussing the experiment at hand, but > another experiment. In short, you are setting up a deliberate "straw man" > which has nothing to do with the experiment at hand, then knocking down > that straw man as if that meant something. What has that got to do with > the science of COP>1.0 EM power systems per se? Absolutely nothing. If you are referring to your past failures with Floyd, the VTA, Newman and the like, then the only valid point I would make is that you must by now understand that COP >1 in an EM system does not mean that you or anyone else can arbitrarily redefine the term to mean "an open EM system" such as one in which external power is transmitted into the MEG, for instance. If you think for a second that a published reading taken from a Tek o'scope validates you work, you are sorely mistaken. My Tek scope routinely gives me power reading that are off by a factor of 500% or more when dealing with highly spiked pulses. You MUST use a dedicated power analyzer for these readings, like the Valhalla or Clarke-Hess. These instruments contain a dedicated DSP that can handle unusual power factors which low end Tek scopes merely estimate. If you do have anything going for you other than a PT Barnum sham, then we can help you with this kind of measurement detail. Had you come to this forum before you made arrangements to issue stock, then we might possibly have validated your claims to a much wider audience, if they are true. I suspect the expertise on this forum for that narrow issue of power factor measurement is close to what you would find in those lofty "institutes" whose identity you won't disclose and who probably have little experience with this very unusual type of measurement. > Forget the speculations and opinions and straw men and sly innuendoes. > We have not publicly advertised a "closed loop" MEG system. We have > advertised a COP = 10.0 EM power system, and are in process of having it > (1) independently replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed. COP=10. Amazing. Do you really believe that some valid scientific impediment exists that prohibits a system with COP=10 from being self-sustaining? I personally have the circuitry not ten feet away that will allow a closed loop electrical device with approx. COP>1.25 to self sustain and drive a small load. It was designed to replicate Ken Shoulders plasma work and will handle highly spiked voltage pulses up to 10kv. I also have available a Clarke-Hess power analyzer and would be more than thrilled to test any device of yours with a putative EM COP>1. Moreover, when you say "not closed loop" in the same context with a purely EM device, then you are, to my mind, saying "intent to defraud." Most any EM device, other than an antenna, I suppose, will be assumed to be closed system unless it is clearly specified otherwise. > Your common home heat pump, under good conditions, exhibits COP = 4.0 or > so. You use that heat pump instead of the resistor heating strips, > whenever possible, because when you switch on the COP<1.0 heating elements > you pay like the dickens! You are confusing thermodynamic performance with electromagnetic performance. > Do you have your home heat pump close-looped? > Why not, if that is the "criterion" for overunity? Is your heat pump > "suspicious" as to overunity, just because it is not self-powering? Try > using a heat pump with COP<1.0 and watch your heating bills go up, then > tell me that you are still suspicious of your heat pump actually having > COP>1.0 unless it is "closed loop" and self powering. This is totally irrelevant nonsense. A heat pump draws in environmental heat but its internal thermodynamic COP is limited by Carnot inefficiencies and is FAR less than unity. > Your pocketbook and > your power bills will clearly tell you the difference between COP = 4.0 > and COP<1.0. There is no law of nature requiring close looping > (self-powering) in order to achieve a heat pump having a COP>1.0, and to > assert such a thesis or suspicion that a heat pump cannot exhibit COP>1.0 > without close-looping easily is to reveal one's serious lack of knowledge > of what COP rigorously is and means as far as utility bills go. COP is the > amount of average power you produce in the load, divided by the average > amount of power you yourself must input and pay for. Period. You are consciously muddling "open loop" thermodynamic efficiency and "closed loop" electromagnetic efficiency - and we can only suspect that you are doing this because you are trying to prepare us for a big surprise. Your MEG device is far less than unity and needs to be externally driven. Am I correct? > Let me explain it very rigorously. Whether we are speaking of EM systems > or other types of systems, thermodynamically there are two major system > types: (1) those systems that are in equilibrium with their environment, > and (2) those systems that are far from equilibrium with their > environment. Everyone is familiar with type (1) systems, since that is > just classical thermodynamics and the dreaded second law rigorously > applies. Such a system can never exhibit COP>1.0, and will not be further > discussed. The second class of system -- a type (2) system -- is what is > really interesting when we are seeking to develop EM power systems, since > all practical EM power systems presently have COP<1.0. Yes, now with this last statement, it appears you might be trying to supply us with a clue. But why turn this into a guessing game? > First, check why Prigogine was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1977, then check any > good references on type (2) system thermodynamics. We are claiming to > have developed a working class (2) EM power system rather than the > conventional type (1) system. Again, aren't you just trying to confuse the real issue of overunity with the "closed system" "open system" thermodynamic gobbledygook? You do not appear to be running calorimetry here. Are you saying that the MEG draws in environmental heat to become OU? Even so, you have given NO verifiable evidence that you have it. Zero, nada, zilch. If an external energy source other than environmental heat is required, why didn't you mention this ABSOLUTELY critical detail in your initial hype? And why didn't you tell Naudin before he wasted valuable time and resources on his failing effort? Were you hoping he would find something that you could not? We are led to believe that you have patent protection. If so, there is no reason to hide these crucial details. Where's the beef? > So what, one might ask, is the big deal about a type (c) MEG > system exhibiting COP = 10? Lots of things! DUH. You don't get it do you. It is a huge deal and you have NOT provided one ounce of unchallengable substantiation. > Applied to powering an electrical automobile, such a system will allow > that either (1) the car can go ten times the distance on its batteries on > a single charge as it can without the COP = 10 MEG, or (2) batteries only > one-tenth the capacity can be used to power the same car the same > distance, using the MEG. DUH. Yes of course. That is not the issue. The issue is where is the COP=10? > Anyway, Magnetic Energy Ltd. advertises an overunity system and we > will rigorously deliver an overunity EM system for full independent > testing and independent replication. Period. I want to hold you to this statement. When and Where? Again, I don't need the COP = 10. I'll be happy to test one of your early prototypes, say COP>2. Can you deliver this now? > That is all that any private company owes anyone. If you prefer a > closed loop system instead of the advertised MEG system, then go discover, > develop, and build one yourself. Particularly if it's so simple. And read > my words carefully. I did not say we have not close-looped the MEG. Read > the words again, till you understand that. I simply said we are not > advertising a closed-loop MEG at this time. AHA. Now it is becoming clearer. Your open system COP=10 must derive well over 90% of its energy output from an extraneous source outside the MEG itself!!! What perchance would this source be? A hidden battery under the table? A directed transmitter. A radioactive isotope? Would you have told this to investors if we had not pressed you for it? Since it was an EM COP>1 that you first appeared to be claiming with the MEG, not an externally pumped thermodynamic efficiency, and since you must admit now that perhaps over 90 of the output comes from outside the MEG itself, wouldn't it be prudent to inform your potential investors of this "minor" detail, well in advance of your stock pitch, rather than trying to hide it in the small print? This whole sordid episode smells of "intent to deceive." > We have already made the arrangements for both the independent > replication and the independent testing of the COP=10 MEG system, and are > simply waiting on the institutes involved to schedule the work. We have > sold no stock. Not a cent of taxpayer money has gone into this very long > and arduous project. Seven or more years of very hard work and effort have > gone into it. If your dictionary describes that as "suspicious", then you > need a new dictionary. No. Perhaps your organization needs a new system of ethics. > Putting it simply, whether a reader wants a self-powering system or > not, matters not one whit to what we are doing and what we have > advertised. What matters is the hard replication, and the hard independent > testing, of a COP = 10 MEG unit. > Fact is, the MEG works and works beautifully as advertised, in the form > we have developed it in. It will be independently tested and > independently validated or refuted by impeccable scientists, engineers, > and institutes. And with success, it will be scaled up into COP>1.0 power > units that are marketed commercially. Scaling up a COP>1 to a COP>1? Wow, now there's a revealing statement if there ever was one. > Anyone who doesn't think that reducing the public's utility bills to, > say, one tenth their present value is useful, needs to have his head > examined. Anyone who cannot translate that kind of performance into a > reduction of the escalating need for oil for electricity as such units (we > are not the only COP>1.0 inventors, by any means!) are deployed on the > world market, needs to learn algebra again. We also point out that, if the > need for oil can be lessened, the oil prices will also come down and > everyone will also benefit from that, whether they buy a MEG unit or not. > > Every bit of that can be done with COP = 10.0, whether or not we ever show > a close-looped device publicly. > > Tom Bearden Mr. Bearden, your remarks thus far are misleading, self-serving and reek of an attempt to perpetrate a fraud upon potential investors. For your sake, I hope there is more to this MEG device than you have been willing to disclose to this forum so far. It is my present intention to notify the SEC of this episode, hopefully, prior of any filing by you. As you may know, they have taken a very hard line on this type of conduct recently. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 11:59:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15143; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:55:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:55:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205100230.00ba0b58 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HBXJs.0.Mi3.3XKBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > >I read Mr. Shoulders' response and I feel confused. Why did he become > >angry and defensive? Why not simply answer the questions? > > Why not indeed? I have asked exactly the same questions to countless > scientists, and not one as ever taken offense or responded the way > Shoulders did. Could it be that Mr. Shoulders thinks you have a hidden agenda? If so, then he would refuse to answer any questions on the grounds that these are not innocent requests for info, but instead represent trolling for information which could be later used to make Mr. Shoulders look bad. I mention this because he says the following in his Open Letter: "[Jed] constantly seeds dissention in insidious ways." "The questions asked were clearly aimed at shooting down comments made by Hal Fox." "I knew from previous experience that any answer to Rothwell would likely get as screwed up as necessary to cause a commotion." "The Lie by Rothwell" "If you [Jed] are really inclined to perform a valuable service for this new energy field, get out of it." Dare I interpret these statements? They need none. Mr. Shoulders clearly hates Mr. Rothwell, and sees hidden agendas in Jed's actions. This can't be a recent attitude caused by the current controversy. And it completely explains Mr. Shoulders' actions: you don't give ammunition to your enemy by answering his questions! Unfortunately, by not answering such simple questions, Mr. Shoulders gives the strong impression that he has something to hide. Why else try to deflect attention from simple questions? I remember a bit of advice that business consultants usually give to companies facing consumer lawsuits: "Tell the truth, tell the whole truth, and tell it FAST." Responding defensively when questioned one look guilty. I don't believe that Mr. Shoulders is erecting a wall of "Stan Meyers BS" as mentioned here earlier. It's simply a feud. Jed Rothwell, by being a highlly visible critic of the CF/New-Energy arena, has made enemies, some of whom he isn't yet aware. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 12:00:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14937; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:55:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:54:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"dGwb_3.0.Cf3.sWKBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/hot_water.html#Experiments > >An interesting "rediscovery" of a physical effect known centuries ago. > >- JR > > >Abstract > >Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of >experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counter- intuitive, >and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real. It has been >seen and studied in numerous experiments. While this phenomenon has been >known for centuries, and was described by Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes >[1-3], it was not introduced to the modern scientific community until 1969, >by a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba. Both the early scientific >history of this effect, and the story of Mpemba's rediscovery of it, are >interesting in their own right -- Mpemba's story in particular provides a >dramatic parable against making snap judgements about what is impossible. ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily proven as follows: (1) Take two identical beakers under identical conditions, with the temperature of their surroundings being less than 0 deg. C, and fill them with the same amounts (mass) of water. (2) Use identical immersion heaters to raise them both to X deg. C and hold them there for a sufficient time to achieve the same conditions within the two beakers. (3) While starting a stopwatch, remove the immersion heater from one of the beakers and, when its temperature reaches Y deg. C, note the elapsed time t1. Then remove the heater from the other beaker, starting a second stopwatch. (4) Result: the beaker that started at Y will thereafter drop to freezing in time t2, and the beaker that started at X will drop to freezing in time t3, such that t1 + t2 = t3. Since t1 > 0, t1 + t2 > t2, and since t1 + t2 = t3, it follows by simple substitution that t3 > t2. Q.E.D. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 12:27:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25157; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:21:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:21:52 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <4c.d946630.275ea83a aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:21:14 EST Subject: LaFonte Members please read! To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com CC: LaFonteMembers aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114 Resent-Message-ID: <"SS6Ct2.0.w86.VvKBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been so busy with research and development I have got the members list all messed up. I want to start fresh and get a new list of current members and any new members joining. Please send FULL NAME AND EMAIL ADDRESS, such as, >Steve Smith Smith hotmail.com< PLEASE SEND TO > LaFonteMembers aol.com < NOT TO THE ABOVE ADDRESS OF THIS POST!!!!!!!! I have been working with list member Jon Vetten and we are close to a final design. He is putting together a 3D illustration and an operational description of the simple all electromagnet design that anyone should be able to build at home at a low cost. You can choose the type electromagnets you want to use to suit your budget. This design works and I hope to show self sustaining operation in the near future. After all, if it can't run on it's own power, then how can it run anything else! Thanks, Butch Please join, the device is the equal property of all list members. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 13:06:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12606; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:04:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:04:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:50:16 -0500 To: William Beaty , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205100230.00ba0b58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1WhsN.0.u43.xXLBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: >> >I read Mr. Shoulders' response and I feel confused. Why did he become >> >angry and defensive? Why not simply answer the questions? >> >> Why not indeed? I have asked exactly the same questions to countless >> scientists, and not one as ever taken offense or responded the way >> Shoulders did. > >Could it be that Mr. Shoulders thinks you have a hidden agenda? If so, >then he would refuse to answer any questions on the grounds that these are >not innocent requests for info, but instead represent trolling for >information which could be later used to make Mr. Shoulders look bad. Oh, well, my agenda is never hidden, but I should explain the order of events, since it might have given him that impression. Before I contacted him, I sent Hal Fox the rough draft of the article, which upset Hal a great deal. It was similar to what I posted here under "Cold fusion at ANS and LENREW 2000 conferences:" "Hal Fox described a mishmash of over-unity energy devices, including cold fusion-like claims from Mills, a high-density charge cluster device made by Ken Shoulders, and a variety of weird claims such as AquaFuel, MagneGas, and a "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator" invented by Thomas Bearden et al. As far as I know, none of these devices has ever been independently replicated or verified . . ." I toned it down a little, and I did not say anything about Shoulders except, "as of this writing I am waiting for information from him." Anyway, Fox was upset and I guess he told Shoulders how unhappy he was. But Shoulders did not seem fazed. His initial nonchalant message to me was: "Hal Fox has a way of rendering interpretations that do not always align with physical facts . . ." That shocked me! His subsequent messages went beyond weird. He does not believe in numbers, and he thinks there is confusion about "over unity" as defined by physicists versus engineers. Woo - woo! We have entered the Twilight Zone. He is supposedly a talented, distinguished scientist. Scott Little and others respect him a lot. But judging from this letter alone he sounds like a loop-de-doop. >I don't believe that Mr. Shoulders is erecting a wall of "Stan Meyers BS" >as mentioned here earlier. It's simply a feud. Jed Rothwell, by being a >highlly visible critic of the CF/New-Energy arena, has made enemies, some >of whom he isn't yet aware. That's possible. And Hal Fox has been waving red meat at me, goading me with comments like this one today: "In a sense when you defame Shoulders because he didn't respond the way you would like him to do so, you are really handing him a big insult." After I stopped laughing and picked myself off the floor, I wrote to Fox and Shoulders: "That is no concern of mine. My questions are perfectly mundane, legitimate and polite. I have asked similar questions to distinguished scientists like Fleischmann, McKubre and Oriani, and they were not the least bit insulted. I don't give a damn whether or not Shoulders feels insulted." I guess they have both gone off the deep end. Who cares about 'em? Back to real work! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 13:48:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28170; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:44:31 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Response from Bearden Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:34:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2D4164.CF645795@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3A2D4164.CF645795 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA28073 Resent-Message-ID: <"ABtgE1.0.0u6.z6MBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 05 Dec 2000 11:26:28 -0800: [snip] Note: It is not my intent in the following to explicitly defend TB, but simply to point out a few places where I think Jones has gone slightly off the track. >Moreover, when you say "not closed loop" in the same context with a purely EM >device, then you are, to my mind, saying "intent to defraud." Most any EM device, >other than an antenna, I suppose, will be assumed to be closed system unless it is >clearly specified otherwise. If you read TB's work carefully, you will see that "antenna" is in fact a pretty good description. [snip] >You are confusing thermodynamic performance with electromagnetic performance. Agreed. [snip] >If an external energy source other than environmental heat is required, why didn't >you mention this ABSOLUTELY critical detail in your initial hype? And why Actually he does. If you read his work, you will repeatedly come across mention of electrical dipoles "gating" the energy of the vacuum. He clearly contends that his device is a collector of vacuum energy. [snip] >Again, I don't need the COP = 10. I'll be happy to test one of your early >prototypes, say COP>2. Can you deliver this now? Be a little careful here. If there is a phase or form difference between input and output, then some energy loss will inevitably be incurred in any adaption device required to close the circle. COP > 2 may suffice, but it may not. [snip] >AHA. Now it is becoming clearer. Your open system COP=10 must derive well over 90% >of its energy output from an extraneous source outside the MEG itself!!! This would have been clear to you from the beginning, had you read TB's work. > >What perchance would this source be? A hidden battery under the table? A directed >transmitter. A radioactive isotope? Would you have told this to investors if we had >not pressed you for it? See above. [snip] >This whole sordid episode smells of "intent to deceive." Yes it does, but I suspect it is more intent to deceive self, rather than anyone else. I think TB desperately wants this to be true. [snip] >> Fact is, the MEG works and works beautifully as advertised, in the form >> we have developed it in. It will be independently tested and >> independently validated or refuted by impeccable scientists, engineers, >> and institutes. And with success, it will be scaled up into COP>1.0 power >> units that are marketed commercially. > >Scaling up a COP>1 to a COP>1? > >Wow, now there's a revealing statement if there ever was one. I think he means scaled up, qua absolute output, not qua COP. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:25:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08938; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:19:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:19:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:19:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_t08o2.0.aB2.TdMBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily > proven as follows: Not nonsense. It's a good lesson in the control of variables. First read the sci.physics FAQ entry: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/hot_water.html It says much the same thing as you do. If you actually perform the experiment, the hot water frequently DOES freeze faster. But is this an anomaly? First all the uncontrolled vairables must be eliminated! The big one is this: in a frost-covered freezer, a hot cup of liquid will melt the insulating frost layer below itself, which puts it into good thermal contact with the evaporator coils. Others are listed in the FAQ as well. If known artifacts are eliminated, does hot water still freeze faster? I would imagine so. The FAQ doesn't say. Theory predicts experimental results, but cannot DETERMINE them. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:43:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14275; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205163026.02dd7e18 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:24:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, jonesb9@pacbell.net From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Response from Bearden In-Reply-To: <3A2D4164.CF645795 pacbell.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eIw2p1.0.sU3.iiMBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote a strong response to Bearden. Yo, James: You DID copy this message to Bearden, right? As you probably see, he is not a member of this forum. I have been posting his messages here. I do not want to relay your response back to him. I have been getting enough flames lately. J.B. wrote: >Mr. Bearden, your remarks thus far are misleading, self-serving and reek >of an >attempt to perpetrate a fraud upon potential investors. > >For your sake, I hope there is more to this MEG device than you have been >willing >to disclose to this forum so far. > >It is my present intention to notify the SEC of this episode, hopefully, >prior of >any filing by you. As you may know, they have taken a very hard line on >this type >of conduct recently. Goodness, gracious. Well, if I felt as strongly as Beene does, I would go to the SEC. I know nothing about this company, and I have not studied Bearden's claims, so I would never contact the SEC. I do get the impression that his statements are nonsense. I hesitate to criticize though, because scientists discussing arcane aspects of thermodynamics, magnetism, electrochemistry and other fields sometimes make assertions which sound screwy. In his book, Mizuno cited someone's theory about overpotential which predicts that in very small areas on the cathode surface pressure can be greater than in a neutron star. Several people contacted me and said that's nonsense. I said I'm the translator; I wouldn't know. [*] Since I have not studied Bearden's work and I don't know much about electromagnetism, it is conceivable to me that he onto something. But why can't he make the thing self-sustain?!? Or build two of them and have one run the other . . . >I personally have >the circuitry not ten feet away that will allow a closed loop electrical device >with approx. COP>1.25 to self sustain and drive a small load. It was >designed to >replicate Ken Shoulders plasma work and will handle highly spiked voltage pulses up >to 10kv. Hey! Do you know something about Shoulders' work? How does he measure output, anyway? By estimating collision damage?!? Or electric power from the other end of the machine? Any idea why he will not give me a straight answer? I still want to know, despite his operatic Sturm und Drang responses. - Jed * This is getting way off topic, but when I studied Japanese many moons ago, we had practice sessions in interpreting. (That is, translating speech as opposed to text -- something I can't do!) The professor advised us, "watch out for people who confuse the interpreter and the person he is translating for. You will interpret an insult into English, and English speaker will get mad at you!" I thought naa, nobody's that stupid. But by golly, it happens! Even on this forum. I realized how people's minds work one day in a theater showing a movie about police brutality. The bad cop said something particularly vile. The audience began booing and throwing things at the screen! They were reacting violently to the projected image of an actor who was pretending to be evil! Kind of like these fad dumb slobs who blast their television with a shotgun when their football team loses. Some people have a weak grasp of causality. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 14:47:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18471; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:42:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:42:28 -0800 Message-ID: <004a01c05f0d$4c739270$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Response from Bearden Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:36:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"AGi8z1.0.MW4.IzMBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a very discouraging response from Bearden. It appears that he completely misunderstands the difference between heat pumps, where COP > 1 does not imply that self powering is possible and electrical systems where COP slightly over 1 does imply that self sustained operation is possible. With heat pumps the output is thermal energy across some temperature difference. A COP > 1 does not imply self sustaining operation in this case because of the Carnot limits on the amount of energy that can be recovered from the thermal output. No such limitations apply to systems with electrical input and output. Electrical energy conversions for the type of input/output that Bearden has reported should easily allow self sustained operation at a COP of > (1.2). This strongly suggests that the COP measurements reported for the MEG are the result of serious measurement errors. The idea that you can run a typical electrical appliance on 10% of the normally required power but are unable to provide a self powered generator not reasonable. The Prigogine work mentioned by Bearden is excellent and AFAIK completely correct. Bearden's interpretation of Prigogine, however, appears to be questionable. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 15:15:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30678; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:11:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:11:25 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205173523.02e28a28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:11:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001204101622.00b9d9a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lBQEW.0.GV7.SONBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Most people, including most scientists, try to avoid arguing with their >colleagues unless there is a tangible benefit--e.g., useful >information--associated with doing so, and as a consequence they tend to >resent people who drag them into pointless conflicts. Result: they tend to >resent Jed Rothwell, because his stock in trade is to compare the >statements of different scientists, find supposed contradictions, and then >say, in effect: "Why don't you and him fight?" That is not in evidence. They do not "tend to resent me." Most of the time we get along fine. The only time they get upset is when I make a dumb mistake or forget to cite them in the footnotes. A few scientists, like Swartz and Correa, dislike me, and a few others I don't like, such as Matsumoto. Then there are fringe pseudoscientists who made weird and unsupported claims, most of them unrelated to CF, and people like Joe Newman who make a living by swindling people with fake energy machines. Some of these people despise me, and I am delighted they do! > By putting it that way, he >put Shoulders in an adversarial position with respect to Fox, thereby >irritating the hell out of Shoulders. How was I supposed to know it wasn't true?!? Fox says Shoulders said "100." Why shouldn't I believe him? Why would Fox make up a thing like that? And if it isn't true, then why should Shoulders be irritated or upset at me? I did not make the presentation! > A better way to approach the matter >would have been to say: "What kind of COP are you getting?" Why is this better? Why is it inflammatory to ask a mundane follow up question about a scientific claim made during a formal presentation at a physics conference, for goodness sake!?!? Do we have to pussyfoot around, hide our sources, and plan every trivial question so we do not accidentally hurt Dr. X's feelings, or upset the delicate sensibilities of Dr. Y by quoting Dr. Z? This is damn nonsense. There is NOTHING wrong with quoting Fox and asking a researcher to fill in the details. You could do that with a thousand other scientists, and not one of them would get upset. If Hal got it wrong, they would calmly give me a few facts and clear up the misunderstanding in five minutes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 15:31:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06116; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:28:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:28:50 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205181710.02de2c48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:28:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3BsFa.0.NV1.neNBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >Theory predicts experimental results, but cannot DETERMINE them. It seems theory is well on its way to explaining these results, although there is no general agreement yet. I love the quote from the technician who was asked to test the effect. After replicating several times: "The technician later reported that the hot water froze first, and said 'But we'll keep on repeating the experiment until we get the right result.'" That's the spirit! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 17:18:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11525; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:15:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:15:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 03:15:14 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"slqPa2.0.gp2.ADPBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, It is often said that experiment having overunity characteristics have difficulty on running closed loop, self sustaining. There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a device appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on experiments producing directly electrical output. I categorize these reasons as conventional and non conventional. Conventional mean understand by classical electrical / electromagnetic theories. Non conventional explanations would be either in the quantum physics, or need "new physics". By new physics, I mean unknown phenomena are producing anomalous measurements, results. New physics would not be necessary violation of laws, but anything is not covered by mostly referred theories. A) Conventional causes preventing closed loop, self sustaining operations: 1) Output power load element is the critical part of the circuit, modifying its characteristics destroy the phenomenon. Characteristics of the load element would not merely defined by I-V (impedance). 2) Load element is floating, it is not possible simply to couple it to other circuits or to other part of the circuit. Even the power signal appears suitable to conversion (i.e. by diodes or transformer), the full signal may have other components, vital for the device work, (i.e. hf) which are altered by conversion elements, thus ceasing the device works or leave the regime. 3) Interference. Any kind of interference, electrical, magnetic, electromagnetic, from the device or from the environment, from the measurement circuits, affect the regime, or destroy the effect. Self interference may also occurs when tried to make a closed loop. 4) Not-so-obvious unsuitable measurement conditions may lead erroneous measurement, appearing as overunity. Change of load impedance would be a common cause. Consider a situation of superimposed signal having frequency or amplitude out of range of measurement equipment is present on the load element. It may possible this signal cause nonlinerarity on load or on measurement devices. B) Quantum properties of the components play role on phenomena. We can not substitute electrons, macroscopically as a current, and their path as current carriers, virtualize as component as defined at electrical circuit theory. It would be summarized that quantum phenomena may affect electrical characteristics of components, leading erroneous measurements. I am thinking that it is possible also quantum properties of electrical components (including electrons) may allow the energy carried and exhibited differently than defined on electrical theory. Please remember that all physics rules are basically generalizations of common observations. Rules are economic way to understand phenomena. If one deal with a non regular, non common experiment conditions, it would not be surprised that results would not obey these rules. This situation is simply "no economic way to understand this phenomenon". Extending the theoretical scope would be necessary. A figured two (hypothetical) example for above but letter become too lengthy. I would post them separately if you are interested. AS summary, a device may depend on quantum effects on its operation and energy flow, exhibition depend on quantum characteristics of components not macroscopic values defined on electrical theory. In this situation, it is not possible to modify a circuit to close the loop (self sustaining) in the guidelines of electrical theory. C) New Physics: If it is considered a new physics on the experiment (obviously on operations are really producing extra energy), without a theoretical guidelines (ironically, there are many new physics theories, but offers little guidelines), it would be very hard to redesign a circuit to make it self sustaining. Relying voltage-current characteristics to figure out energy output of a device would be very misleading in the case of new physics is considered. I am not joking, really. It is very bad idea to try to modify extend a device for self sustaining operation before energies are measured by calorimetric methods. Calorimetry would be more safer than electrical measurements, IMO. Anyway, if the produced energy is usable, it would not be hard to find a method to convert to heat. Conclusion: Dont blame self-sustaing failures. Blame who dont tries calorimetry. Note: It would be possible to build a self sustaining device but in OPEN LOOP to avoid interference by using cycling (manually) batteries between input and output. Anybody is against this operation would be considered as self sustaining? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 19:26:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19659; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:18:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:18:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:24:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: jlnlabs egroups.com, Vortex , Schnurer Subject: Working with Radioactive materials by the amateur Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G9pgI3.0.5p4.P0RBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, I am asking the community about a safety issue. Q: What are the general guidelines when working with Radio Active Materials? Q: What is a Safe material? Q: Do we have any persons from East and Far East to allow persons in the West to get an idea? Opinion: There is NO safe level of exposure. I realize there a greater and lesser levels of background radiations. Q: What do you see as the greatest hazards of emitters? John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 19:57:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12753; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:48:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:48:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hsTXW1.0.573.GSRBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > >Could it be that Mr. Shoulders thinks you have a hidden agenda? If so, > >then he would refuse to answer any questions on the grounds that these are > >not innocent requests for info, but instead represent trolling for > >information which could be later used to make Mr. Shoulders look bad. > > Oh, well, my agenda is never hidden, but I should explain the order of > events, since it might have given him that impression. I don't see anything in your description of the events that explains his more hostile remarks. Given the choice between thinking Mr. Shoulders is trying to deflect attention from something fraudulent, versus thinking that Mr. Shoulders has a long-standing negative opinion of Jed Rothwell, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he would have acted differently if questioned by somebody else. > And Hal Fox has been waving red meat at me, goading me with comments > like this one today: "In a sense when you defame Shoulders because he > didn't respond the way you would like him to do so, you are really > handing him a big insult." Sounds like "flamewar psychology" to me: the same words directed at a friend are a valid complaint, but directed at an enemy are an attempt to defame. Your friends see you make a mistake, while your enemies see the same event as intentional lies. For example, nothing you've said to Mr. Shoulders so far would have insulted me in the least. But then I don't maintain the conviction that you constantly lie, or that you're the self-proclaimed judge of CF-dom. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 20:28:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03975; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:21:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:21:27 -0800 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:21:18 -0500 Message-Id: <200012060421.XAA10727 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: World Educational Rankings Resent-Message-ID: <"1lF4v1.0.1-.6xRBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ahoy! I think it was Tom Malloy who earlier this year asked me where I got my outrageous claims to the effect that the US lagged behind most industrial nations with regard to basic education. I was too busy at the time to chase the source down, and just let the subject drop. The rank that I had read earlier for the US was 7th place, but now it seems that we have slipped to 13th place. Over 9000 US students were randomly selected to participate in the study, so it was not exactly a small sample, either. Here is a more recent story on the subject http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mathandscience001205.html Reed it and weap! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 21:41:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24287; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:40:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:40:30 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 05:39:11 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a2ecf2b.770371833 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA24268 Resent-Message-ID: <"7VctU2.0.Px5.D5TBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, We're batting at two different balls. :) On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:52:56 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>>"A number of arenaviruses cause hemorrhagic disease. Junin virus, isolated >>>in 1958, was the first to be recognized." >>> >>>See also http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm. >> >>Hey. Are you changing the rules after the vote? :) >> >>What you wrote doesn't conflict with what I said. The cause has only >>recently been discovered (viral infection). > >***{Hi Dean. The issue, of course, is whether the disease is newly >emergent, not whether the cause has only recently been identified to be a >virus; and if you had carefully read the second reference, above, you would >have realized that these are, in fact, newly emergent diseases. An excerpt >has been attached below. --MJ}*** I read the article. As I said, it doesn't conflict with what I said (wrote). Hemorrhagic diseases have been known throughout history -- but have affected isolated populations, and these populations have developed high levels of immunity to the diseases. That they were caused by viruses was discovered in the past half-century. These diseases are now "emerging" from their isolated populations due to increased ease of travel, and can quickly infect new populations (assuming a suitable carrier is available). So, you're saying specific hemorrhagic fevers have recently emerged, and I agree. I'm saying they've been around, and known, (though the specific infective agent or process may not have been known) for a long, long time. We don't disagree, from what I can tell. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:00:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30276; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:57:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:57:35 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:56:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA30248 Resent-Message-ID: <"8oM7b.0.yO7.ELTBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:48:20 -0800 (PST): [snip] >I don't see anything in your description of the events that explains his >more hostile remarks. Given the choice between thinking Mr. Shoulders is >trying to deflect attention from something fraudulent, versus thinking >that Mr. Shoulders has a long-standing negative opinion of Jed Rothwell, >I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he would have >acted differently if questioned by somebody else. [snip] I wrote to KS offline and received a courteous reply. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:09:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00493; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:07:05 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Working with Radioactive materials by the amateur Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:06:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA00469 Resent-Message-ID: <"QHyhE1.0.W7.8UTBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Schnurer's message of Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:24:37 -0500 (EST): > > > Dear Folks, > > I am asking the community about a safety issue. > > > Q: What are the general guidelines when working with Radio >Active Materials? I think that depends on the material. > Q: What is a Safe material? That depends on your definition of safe. > > Q: Do we have any persons from East and Far East to allow >persons in the West to get an idea? ??????? > > Opinion: There is NO safe level of exposure. I realize >there a greater and lesser levels of background radiations. > > > Q: What do you see as the greatest hazards of emitters? I see pure alpha emitters as quite harmless, provided that they are kept outside of the body. Inhalation, or ingestion of any radioisotope is potentially dangerous, but those which are likely to take up permanent residence in the body are more dangerous. Beta emitters ditto, with the proviso that some shielding be provided, when used externally (i.e. in devices). Gamma emitters usually require lots of shielding, because gamma rays basically pass through everything to some degree. Neutron emitters I wouldn't touch with a 40 foot pole (or even a 100 foot for that matter ;). The above is my opinion only, I am by no means expert in the field. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:12:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA01110; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:09:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:09:53 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV's Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:09:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA01069 Resent-Message-ID: <"u7qgu3.0.FH.lWTBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:31:21 -0900: [snip] > > L = (u0 N^2 A)/d > >where > > A is area oc cross section, Pi r^2 > d is distance around major circumference, 2 Pi R > >and knowing that: > > L = (N phi)/I [snip] Horace, As far as I can tell at the moment, this means you win :). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 5 22:19:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA02425; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:14:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:14:58 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Response from Bearden Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:13:45 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a2fd445.771678733 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA02405 Resent-Message-ID: <"xTopF1.0.pb.XbTBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jed, On Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:44:26 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Here is a response from Tom Bearden, and my response to him. He seems to be >saying that he cannot make the machine self sustain even though it is "far >more efficient" than today's generators and battery systems. This makes no >sense to me. As I wrote in my response: "Batteries are already 95% >efficient. There is no leeway to make a 'tremendous' improvement; you can >only improve them by a few percent. If you can make a battery work two or >three times more 'efficiently' than any battery today, by definition you >have created an over unity device which can run forever." As I've posted here (and elsewhere) many times previously, whenever a device is described that uses batteries to show over-unity performance (especially lead-acid batteries), I immediately become highly suspicious. Every device I've seen claims to use one battery for power, and charge or "bring back to life" a second battery. They do this by collecting the back EMF (or something) as a high voltage pulse which is then fed into the battery being charged. This sounds good on the surface, but the goodness disappears when looked at in detail, or when the experiments try to re-use the fresh batteries. Lead-acid batteries have the characteristic of slowly reducing their output as they are cycled over time. This is due to the buildup of lead sulfate on the battery plates. All sorts of battery designs are used to reduce the buildup, but eventually a battery will become useless because of the buildup. At times the sulfate will produce "dendrites" between plates that will short the battery. This condition/process is called "sulfating." There are several ways to remove the sulfate from a battery's plates so it's life span can be extended. Some chemicals can do the job (chelating agent ETDA, for one). But there's another process that works very well, and is often found in commercial use for stationary, deep cycle batteries. That method is to induce a high voltage pulse through the battery. This tends to soften and redissolve the lead sulfate back into the sulfuric acid electrolyte (with the lead either replating onto the plates or dropping to the bottom of the battery). Since most of the over-unity devices I've seen (or read of) that use batteries produce high-voltage spikes, IMO, these devices are just expensive desulfators. A description of a pulse desulfator can be found at: http://www.4unique.com/battery/pulsetech/products/power_pulse.htm -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 05:29:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA05983; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:28:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:28:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206082203.02c94d80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:28:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Response from Bearden In-Reply-To: <3a2fd445.771678733 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205094143.00bd35e8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JHxcg3.0.PT1.oxZBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >As I've posted here (and elsewhere) many times previously, whenever a >device is described that uses batteries to show over-unity performance >(especially lead-acid batteries), I immediately become highly >suspicious. Well, I brought up that issue. Bearden is not using batteries to make his claim. But your point is well taken. Other people do use batteries to demonstrate what they think is over-unity performance. The ability of a "desulfator" to improve battery performance is limited. I do not know how much it might extend the life of a battery, but surely it can not multiply it 3 times, or 10 times. So if the o-u machine makes the batteries last 10 times longer than they are rated, I would conclude it is real. I would also ask the experimenter to keep going to make a 100 times rated energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 06:40:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20567; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:37:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:37:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:37:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"V4SER1.0.515.GyaBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I wrote to KS offline and received a courteous reply. Great! Ask him how he measures his input and output. Ask him whether anyone has replicated his results. He will probably bite your head off, but if he doesn't let us know the answers. KS is acting like a fringe inventor. These people are usually friendly until you start asking detailed questions. When they realize you want hard facts instead of hot air, they get angry. They are pleased to tell you, "the I/O ratio could be 1:5000! It could be anything!" But when you ask them the make and model of their power analyzer, they go ape. Years ago when Gene and a friend of ours asked Stanley Meyer too many questions, and started jotting down the equipment model numbers, he went berserk and threw a bottle at our friend's head. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 06:41:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10855; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:39:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:39:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2E511E.858687CE bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:45:50 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2B6648E680F69EEDFFA7CD8A" Resent-Message-ID: <"WZ_7x.0.Xf2.Q-aBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2B6648E680F69EEDFFA7CD8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just received this really odd response from the Telegraph. Looks like they are confused. :) Terry <><><><><><><><><><><> --------------2B6648E680F69EEDFFA7CD8A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail4.bellsouth.net (mail4.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.4]) by mail3.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id EAA09013 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns0.telegraph.co.uk (ns0.telegraph.co.uk [193.115.165.33]) by mail4.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id EAA17723 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from em1.telegraph.co.uk (em1.telegraph.co.uk [193.130.188.83]) by ns0.telegraph.co.uk (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29320 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:46:27 GMT Received: from E12W142 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by em1.telegraph.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA18452 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:49:32 GMT Message-ID: <004601c05f6a$910c04f0$8e0ca8c0 E12W142> From: "News Desk" To: "Terry Blanton \(by way of ElectronicTelegraph\)" References: Subject: Re: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:54:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 We would be grateful if you would not automatically forward emails that come in via Electronic Telegraph to the news desk email address, unless it is obviously for us. This email, for example should have gone to foreign. Many thanks. News Desk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton (by way of ElectronicTelegraph)" To: Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:14 PM Subject: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan > Dear Sir: > > You are reporting 9 dead due to Ebola in Karachi. Can you please > site the source of this report. There is no such news on the WHO > "Outbreak" Web page: > > http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/index.html > > Thank you in advance, > > Terry Blanton > > --------------2B6648E680F69EEDFFA7CD8A-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:04:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18119; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:03:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:03:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001206082817.03a5a920 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:01:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Working with Radioactive materials by the amateur In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"e1P75.0.zQ4.sKbBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:06 PM 12/6/00 +1100, Robin & John wrote: > Q: What are the general guidelines when working with Radio > >Active Materials? You want to limit your exposure to 120 milliRem per calendar quarter. That's 1/10th of the allowable dose for "radiation workers" and is generally regarded as really safe for all people, including children and pregnant women. Of course, there are some fanatics that think even this level is unsafe. When flying at 31,000 feet, you are exposed to about 0.3 mrem/hr of cosmic radiation (that is normally shielded out by the atmosphere). I have personally measured this by carrying a dosimeter with me on airplane trips. Therefore, do not fly more than 400 hrs per quarter (i.e. 4.4 hrs per day every day) if you want to stay below the 120 mrem/quarter limit. A typical medical x-ray gives you 5-10 mrem....no big deal. A friend of mine recently had a radioisotope imaging study done on his heart. They injected him with Tc-99, which has a 6 hr half-life. When he returned from the procedure, I monitored him with my 2" NaI gamma counter. The countrate was so high when he was even in the room, that I initially thought my instrument had gone bonkers. It was only when he walked down the hall into another room that I realized that the instrument was working fine!!! The Geiger counter dosimeter showed about 15 mrem/hr when held up against his chest. He must've gotten a pretty bid total dose from that procedure but obviously they think the diagnostic value outweighs the radiation hazard. > Q: What do you see as the greatest hazards of emitters? >I see pure alpha emitters as quite harmless, provided that they are kept >outside of the body. Robin's proviso is all-important. It has been said that alpha emitters such as Am-241 are the most toxic substances known to man. Micrograms can cause cancer -> death. Sealed sources are the best way to go for laboratory experimentation. That keeps the radioisotope itself INSIDE the capsule and lets out only the radiation, which can always be shielded somehow. The cheapest commonly available alpha emitter can be found in a $10 smoke detector. Tear open the little metal can (with louvers) inside and carefully extract the 1 microcurie Am-241 source inside the can. The Am-241 source is nominally sealed in a unique gold foil package. Basically Am-241 is deposited on one gold foil and then a cover foil is rolled onto the first one, encapsulating the Am-241. However, the cover foil is ULTRA THIN (it has to be for the alpha's to escape) so don't touch it. Anyway, look for something tiny (about 1 mm dia) and gold-colored inside the can and that'll be the source. It's usually crimped into a large steel disc for mounting purposes. Remove the entire steel disc. DO NOT attempt to dig the gold foil out...you will get Am-241 all over yourself. These little sources are really pretty hot. Mine reads 40 mrem/hr when I hold it right up to my Geiger counter dosimeter. Most of that signal is the alphas (which I doubt this dosimeter reads correctly) because the proverbial sheet of paper between the source and the geiger tube window reduces the signal to around 0.3 mrem/hr. Assuming the 40 mrem/hr is correct you therefore wouldn't want to wear this source as a contact lens (eyes are most sensitive to radiation damage) for more that 3 hours every quarter...i.e. for more than 2 minutes each day. At a distance of 2 feet, the radiation from this source is undetectable with my geiger counter dosimeter. With my 2" NaI scintillator, the gamma count is about 3 counts/sec at 2 feet....negligible. With the source right up to the NaI detector (which has an Al window that is opaque to the alphas) the gamma count is about 2000/second. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:16:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29449; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:13:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:13:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:43:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JSM7O2.0.0C7.XUbBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily >proven as follows: . . . >t3, such that t1 + t2 = t3. Since t1 > 0, t1 + t2 > t2, and since t1 + t2 = >t3, it follows by simple substitution that t3 > t2. Q.E.D. A beautiful theory crushed by ugly facts! Yo: Mitchell. We know conventional theory. Even I do. Do the experiment and you will find conventional theory does not apply. It is an over-simplification. A real vial of hot water in a refrigerator is a complex system, beyond our present understanding. As one researcher put it: "There is a wealth of experimental variation in the problem so that any laboratory undertaking such investigations is guaranteed different results from all others." A small object what we assume is a simple and well understood system can exhibit inexplicable and unpredicted behavior. For example, palladium exposed to 1 atm deuterium gas under the right conditions will slowly transmute into other metals, as demonstrated by the folks at Mitsubishi in 100% repeatable experiments. For that matter, water itself is a mystery. Felix Franks is a leading expert on water. He wrote: . . . from a scientific point of view water is far from ordinary. Essential for the maintenance of life as we know what? Certainly. Abundant in the ecosphere? Hardly. Extensively studied. Probably, in the sense that many measurements of its physical properties have been performed, going back several hundreds of years. Best understood? Not at all. Physicists claim a much better understanding of esoteric substances like liquid helium or liquid nitrogen then they have of liquid water. - F. Franks, "Polywater," p. 5. Your physics are a crude, incomplete model of reality at best, and most of what you think you know is wrong. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:24:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23257; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:23:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:23:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:30:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"88Mrm.0.Jh5.QdbBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:09 PM 12/6/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >As far as I can tell at the moment, this means you win :). [snip] Sounds like a possible statement by Al Gore on election night here in the US. 8^) Does the future hold interminable recounts, debate, hearing, and pregnant chad issues? Probably does! 8^) Having argued various sides of the magnetic field issue, I am convinced that the more one knows about magnetic fields the only certainty that emerges is that none of the conventional explanations work in all cases. There emerge conflicts and paradoxes with any theory and we are left more with the art of "picking the correct approach" to solving various problems. Sometimes it seems there are about as many theories of EM as there are authors. The more I learn about EM the more I am sure that I don't really know anything for sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:54:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30879; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:53:03 -0800 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:46:07 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A2E5F3F.AE50765D pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"6iM2i.0.LY7.V3cBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >I wrote to KS offline and received a courteous reply. > > Great! Ask him how he measures his input and output. Ask him whether anyone > has replicated his results. He will probably bite your head off, but if he > doesn't let us know the answers. As JR had asked me a similar question in another thread, let me add: I spent all of last summer/fall working on various aspects and extensions of Shoulder's charge cluster work. I don't know him personally but have a high regard for his theory. I was sorry to see his recent overreacting response to your questions as it seems out of character from what I have heard of him from others, but you should understand that he is reputedly a perfectionist who does not let financial considerations drive his work. His credibility is orders of magnitude greater than Bearden's but that may not tell you much. I am somewhat surprised that he even took the time to email, as he is known to be a hermit/workaholic type. The caustic response must have been undertaken as a personal request from Fox. Scott Little has worked with KS and if I am not mistaken there was even talk of him joining EarthTech. I am pretty sure that Scott has been unable to replicate his EV results but you should ask SL for those details. There are several Shoulders designs for EVs (CCs). There is at least one version of that produces direct output (inline output so that you can interpose the device between power supply and load and get power amplification. This was what I was working on. At first I was also getting very large OU readings. Then I took a refresher course on power factor measurements of highly spiked pulses. BTW Scott Little and other's have posted good info to Vortex on this - including the absolute necessity of getting hold of the right test equipment. This is stuff you don't always get in higher education, even if, like Bearden, you have that Ph.D. ;-] Even the power industry rarely deals with this type of waveform - and the RMS estimations that most instruments give are a joke. The "multiplication" function of many respected o'scopes is not based on the actual area plotting mathematics as one once had to undertake with analog scopes, but most of all, many of these HV spikes are so sharp that it would take a Ghz scope to resolve them and a lesser scope will just assume they are a wider pulse. You have heard the expression "there's nothing worse than a reformed (smoker, alcoholic, etc). Perhaps learning to take decent measurements is part of my problem with Bearden - only he should know better, or maybe that Ph.D. was in investment counseling. Anyway, the big OU numbers that first appeared went away with accurate measurements - but there are still anomalies that I am trying to sort out - including an apparent ability to produce copious neutrons in D gas at low voltage. If nothing else, you can put a CC devise in a circuit with say a 30 watt fluorescent light source and drive the whole thing with one watt, but it won't self sustain - at least I cannot make it self-sustain. I wish some big well-equiped lab would pick it up but then again, without the full cooperation of KS that is not likely to happen. > > KS is acting like a fringe inventor. These people are usually friendly > until you start asking detailed questions. When they realize you want hard > facts instead of hot air, they get angry. They are pleased to tell you, > "the I/O ratio could be 1:5000! It could be anything!" But when you ask > them the make and model of their power analyzer, they go ape. Years ago > when Gene and a friend of ours asked Stanley Meyer too many questions, and > started jotting down the equipment model numbers, he went berserk and threw > a bottle at our friend's head. It would be a mistake to equate KS with Meyer or Bearden. He is secretive but I am convinced that he really has something unusual. BTW I doubt that he has ever actually claimed OU. It's doesn't seem to be his style AFAIK. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 07:56:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31435; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:54:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:54:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2E6279.A86872EB bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:59:53 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------858BF46FA2A523655A941294" Resent-Message-ID: <"bEsYr.0.1h7.15cBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------858BF46FA2A523655A941294 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now the Telegraph promises an answer (even if I can't spell 'grateful')! Terry <><><><><><><><><><><><> --------------858BF46FA2A523655A941294 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail6.bellsouth.net (mail6.bellsouth.net [205.152.150.6]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id KAA04893 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns0.telegraph.co.uk (ns0.telegraph.co.uk [193.115.165.33]) by mail6.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id KAA15948 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:43:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from em1.telegraph.co.uk (em1.telegraph.co.uk [193.130.188.83]) by ns0.telegraph.co.uk (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18613 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:37:55 GMT Received: from E12W142 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by em1.telegraph.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA22788 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:41:02 GMT Message-ID: <001b01c05f9b$aa87a5c0$8e0ca8c0 E12W142> From: "News Desk" To: "Terry Blanton" References: <004601c05f6a$910c04f0$8e0ca8c0@E12W142> <3A2E523C.3FEE0169@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:46:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Apologies for confusion over your email. I have passed your email to the foreign desk and they have faxed your email to Ahmed Rasheed, who should be in touch with you direct. Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: "News Desk" Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan > Dearest News Desk: > > I don't know what you are talking about. I'm here in the > colonies trying to find out why the heck you are reporting an > ebola outbreak in Pakistan. I simply clicked on your "letter to > the editor" button on the web site. I would be greatful if you > would forward this request to the appropriate people within your > organization. > > Warmest regards, > > Terry Blanton, PE > Atlanta, GA, USA > > News Desk wrote: > > > > We would be grateful if you would not automatically forward emails that come > > in via Electronic Telegraph to the news desk email address, unless it is > > obviously for us. This email, for example should have gone to foreign. > > > > Many thanks. > > > > News Desk. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Terry Blanton (by way of ElectronicTelegraph)" > > > > To: > > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:14 PM > > Subject: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan > > > > > Dear Sir: > > > > > > You are reporting 9 dead due to Ebola in Karachi. Can you please > > > site the source of this report. There is no such news on the WHO > > > "Outbreak" Web page: > > > > > > http://www.who.int/disease-outbreak-news/index.html > > > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > > > > Terry Blanton > > > > > > --------------858BF46FA2A523655A941294-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 08:51:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25527; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:47:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:47:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206110722.02c94d80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:37:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: <3A2E5F3F.AE50765D pacbell.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wkpAD.0.dE6.hscBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I was sorry to see [KS's] recent overreacting response to >your questions as it seems out of character from what I have heard of him from >others, but you should understand that he is reputedly a perfectionist who >does >not let financial considerations drive his work. I was shocked to see his reaction. I met him briefly at Texas A&M (TAMU) years ago. He seemed friendly but unwilling to discuss his work, so I did not ask many questions. People say he is a perfectionist. I consider that a fault. I wish he would let financial considerations drive his work! > His credibility is orders of >magnitude greater than Bearden's but that may not tell you much. . . . >Scott Little has worked with KS and if I am not mistaken there was even talk >of him joining EarthTech. I am pretty sure that Scott has been unable to >replicate his EV results but you should ask SL for those details. Scott is probably reading this. What do you say, Scott? Any luck with the KS gadget? Scott Little and Hal Fox have both told me they have great respect for Shoulders. Since I respect them, I assume Shoulders is a good scientist who had a bad day, or he does not partake in the usual scientific ethos of sharing information and assisting in replications of his work in order to gain credibility. >There are several Shoulders designs for EVs (CCs). There is at least one >version of that produces direct output (inline output so that you can >interpose >the device between power supply and load and get power amplification. This was >what I was working on. That's neat! What is the gain supposed to be? >Even the power industry rarely deals with this type of waveform - and the RMS >estimations that most instruments give are a joke. The "multiplication" >function of many respected o'scopes is not based on the actual area plotting >mathematics as one once had to undertake with analog scopes, but most of all, >many of these HV spikes are so sharp that it would take a Ghz scope to resolve >them and a lesser scope will just assume they are a wider pulse. I hope this sort of thing is not happening with Mizuno & Ohmori. Perhaps you could examine the PZ4000 specifications and let us know if you think that is possible. See: http://www.yokogawa.com/tm/Bu/PZ4000/Welcome.html It says the PZ4000 won the Best in Test award from TM Magazine. If the PZ doesn't work, nothing will. >I wish some big well-equiped lab would pick it up but then again, without the >full cooperation of KS that is not likely to happen. He must realize that. I suppose he does not want to see a well-equipped lab replicate his results. >It would be a mistake to equate KS with Meyer or Bearden. I wasn't really equating him, but the pattern of behavior is disturbingly similar. > He is secretive but I >am convinced that he really has something unusual. BTW I doubt that he has >ever >actually claimed OU. It's doesn't seem to be his style AFAIK. He who? Meyer or Bearden never claimed OU? Meyer did. I cannot tell what Bearden is claiming! His statements are wrapped in layers of rhetorical cotton wool and what looks like confusion about thermodynamics. I am a little relieved and a little disappointed to see that George Holtz and others agree he is confused. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 09:15:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01027; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:06:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:06:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A2E736B.B9BD8569 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:12:11 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4E303BA0BC5864A1F0061925" Resent-Message-ID: <"PQAmd1.0.zF.v7dBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4E303BA0BC5864A1F0061925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vorts: I have queried the Centers for Disease Control here in Atlanta regarding the referenced subject. Terry <><><><><><><><><><><> --------------4E303BA0BC5864A1F0061925 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3A2E72ED.B30CCC0C bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:10:05 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: inquiry cdc.gov Subject: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you aware that the Telegraph in England is reporting an Ebola outbreak in Karachi Pakistan: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000252141601804&rtmo=psBIhpbe&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/00/12/1/wbul01.html#go2 (be sure you get the full link). Below is the text from the report: <><><><><><><><><><><> Nine dead as Ebola spreads to Pakistan NINE people have died in Pakistan from the Ebola virus and at least three others are sick in the first outbreak of the disease outside Africa. The highly infectious disease - that has symptoms similar to typhoid and malaria, but which causes massive internal bleeding and death in as little as two days - has been identified in Karachi, home to 10 million people. Experts fear that more cases may have been misdiagnosed and have warned that a massive campaign is needed to stop it spreading. Ahmed Rashid, Lahore <><><><><><><><><><><> I have queried the editors at the Telegraph with the following promise of an answer: Subject: Re: Ebola Outbreak in Karachi Pakistan Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:46:14 -0000 From: "News Desk" To: "Terry Blanton" References: 1 , 2 , 3 Apologies for confusion over your email. I have passed your email to the foreign desk and they have faxed your email to Ahmed Rasheed, who should be in touch with you direct. Thank you. <><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><> Can the CDC confirm or deny the Telegraph's report? Regards, Terry --------------4E303BA0BC5864A1F0061925-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 09:21:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03261; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:20:59 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6zvZT.0.no.3GdBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily > >proven as follows: > . . . > >t3, such that t1 + t2 = t3. Since t1 > 0, t1 + t2 > t2, and since t1 + t2 = > >t3, it follows by simple substitution that t3 > t2. Q.E.D. > > A beautiful theory crushed by ugly facts! We ran some experiments on this when I was in high school. One interesting outcome was that water can exist in a supercooled liquid state, i.e. water can remain liquid below 0 degrees Celcius (at standard pressure). You must start with cool water and let it sit for a long time then cool it slowly. We were able to get the liquid well below freezing. When the water was disturbed even slightly, it immediately "crystalized" and became ice. Turbulent water and very warm water will freeze quicker under certain conditions as you correctly stated, Jed. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 10:29:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23948; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:26:38 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206124508.00bd7258 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:06:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another response from Bearden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1WQw81.0.zr5.TJeBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is another response from Bearden. I'll move my message to him to the top. His statements make no sense to me. He has evaded the issue of making a self-sustaining engine, and the fact that motors and batteries are already 90 to 95% efficient. He appears to have some funny ideas about heat pumps, or he is using terminology in a way that I do not understand. He seems to think that when you put a heat pump underground, that makes it a "closed loop" system, but of course a ground-based heat pump is as open as an air based one. It cools an earth heat sink instead of air. (By the way, this is highly efficient configuration, because the ground temperature below the frost line does not vary much year-round, compared to air. Ground-based heat pumps are also much quieter. Most of the noise from conventional air conditioners and heat pumps is caused by the fan that moves the air past the coils. Ocean and lake water systems have problems with corrosion and leaks.) I have heard enough from this fellow. - JR -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:43 AM To: soliton bellsouth.net Subject: RE: Response from Tom Bearden You wrote: >We >have not publicly advertised a "closed loop" MEG system. We have advertised >a COP = 10.0 EM power system, and are in process of having it (1) >independently replicated, and (2) independently tested and confirmed. That's interesting and encouraging, but if you have a moment, can you please tell me: Why haven't you closed the loop? Is there some physical limitation that prevents this? Correct me if I am wrong, but "COP = 10.0" means the device puts out to 10 times more electric power that it consumes. That should be more than enough to overcome losses from any electric motor. I think a self-sustaining closed loop system would be extremely convincing. Do you agree it would be? >Your common home heat pump, under good conditions, exhibits COP = 4.0 or so. >You use that heat pump instead of the resistor heating strips, whenever >possible, because when you switch on the COP<1.0 heating elements you pay >like the dickens! Do you have your home heat pump close-looped? No, that's physically impossible. That would violate the laws of thermodynamics. > Why not, >if that is the "criterion" for overunity? Is your heat pump "suspicious" as >to overunity, just because it is not self-powering? It is not over unity. It merely moves energy from one place to another. Does your device to something like that? >Applied to powering your home, it would dramatically reduce >your powerline demand and dramatically reduce your utility bills (to less >than a tenth, in a linear cost approximation). Applied to powering an >electrical automobile, such a system will allow that either (1) the car can >go ten times the distance on its batteries on a single charge as it can >without the COP = 10 MEG, or (2) batteries only one-tenth the capacity can >be used to power the same car the same distance, using the MEG. If these claims are true, then regardless of the nature of the machine, I see no reason why it cannot be made into a "perpetual motion machine" (that pulls in energy from the environment, as you claim). Your car could pull another electric car with regenerative braking, and have the second car recharge while the first discharges. Then the second car takes over. > Either way, >you get a tremendous improvement in electrical vehicles, in the cost of >buying and operating them, costs of batteries, etc. Batteries are already 95% efficient. There is no leeway to make a "tremendous" improvement; you can only improve them by a few percent. If you can make a battery work two or three times more "efficiently" than any battery today, by definition you have created an over unity device which can run forever. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bearden's RESPONSE: Reply-To: From: "Tom Bearden" To: "Jed Rothwell" Subject: RE: Response from Tom Bearden Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:37:39 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal Jed, I am not your teacher, and I do not have time to educate you on what a COP = 4.0 system means. You are in grave error when you believe that close-looping a COP = 4.0 device will violate thermodynamics itself. It will violate CLASSICAL EQUILIBRIUM THERMODYNAMICS, of course, and that is not any big deal whatsoever, since the very presence of a COP = 4.0 already violates classical equilibrium thermodynamics! Close-looping a heat pump of COP = 4.0 is not a violation of thermodynamics itself, just one branch of it. However, classical equilibrium thermodynamics would seem to be the only kind of thermodynamics you are familiar with. Again, I refer you to Prigogine's Nobel Prize and to the literature. If you do not wish to read the literature of the THERMODYNAMICS OF LEGITIMATE COP>1.0 SYSTEMS FAR FROM EQUILIBRIUM, then you are not qualified to discuss such systems or draw conclusions. Your answer reveals you do not know them. Let me quote my statement and your erroneous answer: TEB: >Your common home heat pump, under good conditions, exhibits COP = 4.0 or so. >You use that heat pump instead of the resistor heating strips, whenever >possible, because when you switch on the COP<1.0 heating elements you pay >like the dickens! Do you have your home heat pump close-looped? JR: >No, that's physically impossible. That would violate the >laws of >thermodynamics. Comment: Sorry, but you are totally wrong, and your statement is not true at all for systems far from equilibrium, and it is not true for a home heat pump either. The second law of thermodynamics DOES NOT EVEN APPLY for such systems! And in fact it is perfectly possible to close-loop a common heat pump, so long as it runs under ideal conditions. E.g., put it underground, so that its ambient temperature holds up, say, to 65 degrees, and close looping is straightforward for any proper laboratory team. Jed, it appears you really do not understand systems far from thermodynamic equilibrium. Close-looping is simply the difference between the system running in open loop, non-self-powering form and running in self-powering form. You need to do some further study of the thermodynamics of open systems far from equilibrium. This is not a criticism of you personally, or of your good intentions; just an observation of a lack of understanding of the subject and a helpful suggestion. Please do not keep asking me such questions; I'm already working 18 hour days, and I really do not have time to divert for that. Everyone is entitled to an "opinion" on anything. That has nothing to do with what our group is doing, what we have done, and what we have advertised. DO NOT keep asking me questions on something I've already told you will not be further discussed, and has not been claimed in the first place. You will know those answers in due time, let me leave it at that. I'm flatly not going to discuss with you things which could very well jeopardize our patenting process or additional patents we are in preparing. For you to press it reveals an inappropriate knowledge of the patent laws and the stringent requirements a group can be under with its intellectual property rights at early stages. Our own company will make its own corporate decisions as to when it is appropriate to discuss and reveal close-looping, and it will be based on our legal requirements and not your casual interest. Sorry if you do not "like" that; company policy to comply with patenting legal requirements is not anyone else's personal business. What IS everyone else's personal business, and properly scientific, is that we either most make good on our COP>1.0 claims or we fall flat on our face. And that judgement will NOT come from chatter and odd questions and opinions. It will come from hard, independent testing by impeccable institutions and hard independent replication OF WHAT WE CLAIM, which is COP>1.0 and is NOT close-looping. All I can add is that, if you cannot understand a company's position on that, and still want to hold me accountable for something I have not promised in the first place, or for answering false assumptions on thermodynamics, then I have no time for it. I'm happy to help where I can. But there is a severe limit to my time and ability. We have already released far more than anyone else seems to have done. We are putting the unit to the test by very competent and independent scientists. We will be validated or negated by hard scientific results. Best wishes, Tom Bearden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 11:04:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28146; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:56:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:56:29 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:39:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"g86Db3.0.ht6.8leBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ***{Bill: Your "reply-to" header is set incorrectly. Your post was sent to vortex, but your "reply-to" would have directed this response to your private e-mail, if I had not noticed and corrected it manually. --MJ}*** >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily >> proven as follows: > > >Not nonsense. It's a good lesson in the control of variables. First read >the sci.physics FAQ entry: > > http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/hot_water.html > >It says much the same thing as you do. If you actually perform the >experiment, the hot water frequently DOES freeze faster. But is this an >anomaly? First all the uncontrolled vairables must be eliminated! The big >one is this: in a frost-covered freezer, a hot cup of liquid will melt the >insulating frost layer below itself, which puts it into good thermal >contact with the evaporator coils. Others are listed in the FAQ as well. > >If known artifacts are eliminated, does hot water still freeze faster? >I would imagine so. The FAQ doesn't say. > >Theory predicts experimental results, but cannot DETERMINE them. ***{When both the logic and the facts are clear, they invariably agree. However, when one is not clear and a choice is required, here is the way to go: (1) Logic beats "facts"--which means: when the logic is clear and the "facts" are not, go with the logic. (2) Facts beat "logic"--which means: when the facts are clear and the logic is not, go with the facts. With regard to my proof, the logic is clear and the "facts"--i.e., the details of the various experiments that supposedly contradict that logic--are not clear. Result: my logic beats those "facts." You may not like that state of affairs, but that's the way it is. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 11:33:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04959; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:25:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:25:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:44:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Resent-Message-ID: <"Z9_453.0.5D1.PAfBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>I wrote to KS offline and received a courteous reply. > >Great! Ask him how he measures his input and output. Ask him whether anyone >has replicated his results. He will probably bite your head off, but if he >doesn't let us know the answers. > >KS is acting like a fringe inventor. ***{Rubbish. He is acting like a guy who doesn't like the way you word your questions, and that is *obvious*. You, however, continue to be in denial, and refuse to see fault in your own behavior. Result: you have recourse to these sorts of demeaning interpretations of his motivation. --MJ}*** These people are usually friendly >until you start asking detailed questions. When they realize you want hard >facts instead of hot air, they get angry. ***{That sometimes happens, but you have no basis for applying such an interpretation to the present situation. It is crudely obvious that you worded your enquiry to Ken Shoulders in a way that put him in a box, that you had done that to him in the past, and that he was ticked off about those earlier episodes and primed to explode. Surely you are intelligent enough to see the difference between saying "Hal Fox said you told him you are getting a COP of 100. Is that true?" and saying "What kind of COP are you getting?"! (Here, let me spell it out for you: in the first case, Shoulders must choose between claiming a COP of 100 and contradicting Fox, whereas in the second case no such Hobson's choice is involved.) --MJ}*** They are pleased to tell you, >"the I/O ratio could be 1:5000! It could be anything!" But when you ask >them the make and model of their power analyzer, they go ape. Years ago >when Gene and a friend of ours asked Stanley Meyer too many questions, and >started jotting down the equipment model numbers, he went berserk and threw >a bottle at our friend's head. ***{Yes, and you have on several occasions "gone ape" when I have tried to point out the inappropriateness of some of the things you have said to, and about, others. If I had been standing in front of you, in fact, I can easily imagine you going berserk and throwing a bottle at my head. (Does that mean you are a fringe journalist? :-) --MJ}*** > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 11:48:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09018; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:41:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:41:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:55:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"MXmjm3.0.nC2.xPfBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jed Rothwell wrote: >> >> Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> >***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is >>easily >> >proven as follows: >> . . . >> >t3, such that t1 + t2 = t3. Since t1 > 0, t1 + t2 > t2, and since t1 + >>t2 = >> >t3, it follows by simple substitution that t3 > t2. Q.E.D. >> >> A beautiful theory crushed by ugly facts! > >We ran some experiments on this when I was in high school. One >interesting outcome was that water can exist in a supercooled >liquid state, i.e. water can remain liquid below 0 degrees >Celcius (at standard pressure). > >You must start with cool water and let it sit for a long time >then cool it slowly. We were able to get the liquid well below >freezing. When the water was disturbed even slightly, it >immediately "crystalized" and became ice. > >Turbulent water and very warm water will freeze quicker under >certain conditions as you correctly stated, Jed. > >Terry ***{Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than cold water. The thought experiment that I described earlier was deliberately constructed to ensure that the "other things equal" condition strictly applied: two beakers of pure water were raised to a temperature of X degrees C under identical conditions, and given time for differences such as internal turbulence, quantities of dissolved gases, etc., to equalize. At that point, the heater was removed from beaker A and, when its temperature had fallen to Y degrees C, the heater was removed from beaker B. Under such conditions, "other things" are *forced* to be equal. Result: beaker A *always and necessarily* is going to freeze before beaker B. The implication: the "Mpemba effect" is based on an invalid experimental design in which the mandatory "other things equal" condition is not satisfied. As such, it is as utterly unremarkable as would be the claim that a gallon of water that has been mixed with a gallon of antifreeze takes longer to freeze, even if it starts at a lower temperature, than does a gallon of water which has *not* been mixed with a gallon of antifreeze. Enough said. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 11:53:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10780; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:48:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:48:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001206114206.03a6daa0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:01:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206110722.02c94d80 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A2E5F3F.AE50765D pacbell.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xn_ID3.0.Ke2.LWfBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:37 AM 12/6/00 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Jones Beene wrote: > >>Scott Little has worked with KS and if I am not mistaken there was even talk >>of him joining EarthTech. I am pretty sure that Scott has been unable to >>replicate his EV results but you should ask SL for those details. > >Scott is probably reading this. What do you say, Scott? Any luck with the >KS gadget? I must admit that I am not sure that EV's even exist....and this follows several years of steady experimentation with apparatus that was supposed to be generating them. We tried a few times to observe the "electrical energy in - electrical energy out" gain that KS reported...but without success. However, KS reportedly has special skills in pulse electronics whereas I am just an ordinary engineer/physicist. As the story goes, even when KS was measuring this kind of gain from EV's (I think the patent says 90:1 somewhere), it was not repeatable. I also mounted a serious campaign to replicate the ceramic boring phenomenon the KS reported (where EV's made amazing tiny tunnels thru ceramic with obviously melted walls (so it appears from his SEM photos). I finally succeeded in matching his reported electrical parameters and in getting an electrical discharge to travel between the two ceramic plates lapped together. However, upon inspection there was only a barely discernible "slug track" to show where the discharge had traveled....nothing like KS's round tunnels. Last but not least we spent years looking for signs of gain calorimetrically in spark discharge experiments that closely resembles KS's apparatus. After MANY false alarms caused mainly by the difficulty of accurately measuring the electrical input power to these experiments, we concluded that none of our results showed any significant gain. KS visited us not too long ago and tried to make the Mizuno experiment (which has lots of EV-looking sparks in it) show excess heat (see http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/300volt/run6/run6.html). Apparently his presence was not enough to nullify the Conservation of Energy Enforcement field that surrounds our lab....:) In spite of all this negative evidence, I would jump on the EV bandwagon instantly if somebody would just show me an experiment that PROVED their existence. I have spent some time considering such an experiment and have not come up with anything workable yet. Any ideas out there? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:12:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10630; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:09:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:09:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2E9E40.4552353F bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:14:56 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another response from Bearden References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206124508.00bd7258 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-5Yck.0.0c2.cpfBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Here is another response from Bearden. I think I understand Tom's fear. If we assume that the MEG *has* achieved a COP of 10 *and* he has closed the loop, he fears discussing it because "perpetual motion machines" are routinely rejected by the USPTO. BTW, I noticed that Robert Parks has an article in this month's (Jan. 2001) Playboy -- not a pictorial, thankfully! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:17:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16272; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:11:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:11:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206142522.02cae700 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 14:35:51 -0500 To: , vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CORRECTION RE: Response from Tom Bearden In-Reply-To: <002401c05fab$3a8adfc0$71e84cd8 p133> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205082818.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eA-LF1.0.8-3.TrfBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mr. Bearden, Yesterday I wrote: >Batteries are already 95% efficient. There is no leeway to make a >"tremendous" improvement; you can only improve them by a few percent. If >you can make a battery work two or three times more "efficiently" than any >battery today, by definition you have created an over unity device which >can run forever. I meant to say "batteries and motors are already 95% efficient." I realize you are not working on a battery. I should have said: if you can make a "tremendous" improvement to an electric motor, more than 20%, then it stands to reason you can build two motors and have one power the other. (It may be necessary to store the output of one machine in a small set of batteries or capacitors temporarily, but the principle is the same.) All experts in motors that I have consulted over the years agree with me on this, and all commentators on Vortex agree now. You seem to be claiming that you have increased performance by a factor of 10, a 1000% improvement. Therefore, you should be able to make a machine or set of machines which can be disconnected from the power mains, running themselves indefinitely. If you cannot do this, then in my opinion and in the opinion of all experts I have consulted, your claims cannot be correct. I feel I should add a note of caution. If you not willing to perform the test I described, every scientist and engineer I know would consider your claims bogus, and they would be extremely suspicious about the company Magnetic Energy Limited, which is reportedly preparing an IPO of a product based on your technology. I have no knowledge of this company, no wish to interfere with your affairs, and I am not a lawyer, but I do want to say that I hope that you will perform this essential test before proceeding with any business plans. I wish you the best of luck with the test. Sincerely, - Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 12:33:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20856; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:27:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:27:19 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a2ecf2b.770371833 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:26:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"R8-lO2.0.h55.Y4gBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitchell, > >We're batting at two different balls. :) > >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:52:56 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>>>"A number of arenaviruses cause hemorrhagic disease. Junin virus, isolated >>>>in 1958, was the first to be recognized." >>>> >>>>See also http://www.xviral.co.uk/disease/machupo.htm. >>> >>>Hey. Are you changing the rules after the vote? :) >>> >>>What you wrote doesn't conflict with what I said. The cause has only >>>recently been discovered (viral infection). >> >>***{Hi Dean. The issue, of course, is whether the disease is newly >>emergent, not whether the cause has only recently been identified to be a >>virus; and if you had carefully read the second reference, above, you would >>have realized that these are, in fact, newly emergent diseases. An excerpt >>has been attached below. --MJ}*** > >I read the article. As I said, it doesn't conflict with what I said >(wrote). > >Hemorrhagic diseases have been known throughout history -- but have >affected isolated populations, and these populations have developed >high levels of immunity to the diseases. That they were caused by >viruses was discovered in the past half-century. > >These diseases are now "emerging" from their isolated populations due >to increased ease of travel, and can quickly infect new populations >(assuming a suitable carrier is available). ***{That's not what I mean by "emergent," and based on the content of the article that I cited to you, it can't be what is happening. The article makes it quite clear that these conditions were seen for the first time in the last 50 years. As I said, people have been living in those areas for literally thousands of years. There is simply *no way* they failed to notice a condition wherein afflicted individuals began to ooze blood from every bodily orifice, and thereafter quickly died. Moreover, there is simply *no way* that the occurrence of such events could have failed to confer a significant level of immunity on those populations, thereby precluding the types of fatality rates we are seeing. The conclusion that these diseases appeared only recently, therefore, seems quite inescapable. --MJ}*** > >So, you're saying specific hemorrhagic fevers have recently emerged, >and I agree. I'm saying they've been around, and known, (though the >specific infective agent or process may not have been known) for a >long, long time. > >We don't disagree, from what I can tell. ***{I think we do. The articles I cited state that Argentine hemorrhagic fever was the first hemorrhagic fever to be identified, and strongly suggest that the first descriptions of Argentine hemorrhagic fever entered the medical literature in the 1950's, after which it was quickly determined to be caused by an arenavirus--to wit: the Junin virus. Since I don't think a gross condition of that sort could have stayed out of the medical literature for very long, I conclude that the virus in question did not afflict humans prior to that time. The question is: why not? There are two possible answers: (1) The conventional theory holds that these viruses were sequestered in animal host populations away from areas of human habitation prior to that time. (2) The panspermia theory, when applied to hemorrhagic fevers, suggests that these viruses may not have been present on Earth prior to that time--that, instead, they may have been brought to Earth more recently, carried here by small comets or meteorites. (3) It could be that intelligent aliens, as is frequently claimed, have come to Earth and are abducting earthlings and doing experiments on them, and the purpose of the experiments may be to engineer a virus that can wipe out humans so the Earth can be colonized by aliens. If so, the hemorrhagic fevers may have been seeded on Earth by them. In my view, (1) is implausible because, in fact, people have been living in these areas for a long time, and I simply do not believe that occasional cases of these diseases in humans could have been avoided; nor do I believe that, when such cases occurred, they could have been kept out of the medical literature. The symptoms are simply too bizarre to have been ignored. Since option (3) is simply too far-fetched for me to take seriously, I am at present inclined toward, but not irrevocably committed to, option (2), above. So there you have it. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 13:14:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21762; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:11:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:11:33 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:09:42 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a32a63f.825440440 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA21713 Resent-Message-ID: <"7u29Z3.0.yJ5.4kgBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:26:37 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>So, you're saying specific hemorrhagic fevers have recently emerged, >>and I agree. I'm saying they've been around, and known, (though the >>specific infective agent or process may not have been known) for a >>long, long time. >> >>We don't disagree, from what I can tell. > >***{I think we do. The articles I cited state that Argentine hemorrhagic >fever was the first hemorrhagic fever to be identified, and strongly >suggest that the first descriptions of Argentine hemorrhagic fever entered >the medical literature in the 1950's, Hmm. So, you're saying that hemorrhagic fevers are new to the world (since the 1950's or so) and I'm saying they've been around a long time. Okay, we disagree. To me, the word "emergent" means that these diseases have been present all along, but have only recently "emerged" from their local, isolated habitats due to various factors -- mainly increased human mobility and communication. To you, "emergent" apparently means these are new diseases which have "emerged" from some other disease. IMO, your use of the word "emergent" is incorrect. Here's a reference to one that was identified in the early 1900's. (from: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/rvf.htm) "Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers: Fact Sheets What is Rift Valley Fever? Rift Valley fever (RVF) is an acute, fever-causing viral disease that affects domestic animals (such as cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, and camels) and humans. RVF is most commonly associated with mosquito-borne epidemics during years of heavy rainfall. The disease is caused by the RVF virus, a member of the genus Phlebovirus in the family Bunyaviridae. The disease was first reported among livestock by veterinary officers in Kenya in the early 1900s." I could probably do more digging to show that native people in formerly isolated areas were aware of these diseases, but I don't have the time right now. BTW, yellow fever is one of the VHF's (Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers), and has been known for quite some time. So far, vaccines have been developed for yellow fever and Argentine hemorrhagic fever. See: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/vhf.htm -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 13:18:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00632; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:04:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:04:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:11:13 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: yokogawa pz4000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A2E8141.7C651447 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206110722.02c94d80 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"qmRCy2.0.V9.CdgBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Perhapsyou could examine the PZ4000 specifications and let us know if you think > that is possible. See: > > http://www.yokogawa.com/tm/Bu/PZ4000/Welcome.html > This machine has a frequency range about triple that of the Clarke-Hess 2330. I have never used one but from the spec and awards it has received, it must be one of the best. However, it uses 12 bit I/O vs 16 and there is no mention of which DSPs are used. If you want the inside scoop from a competitor, contact Ken Salz of Clarke-Hess at: info clarke-hess.com He is good about answering emails. Be sure to mention exactly what the parameter are of the required measurements and ask him why his box would be the better choice. The pz-4000 is probably overkill for non-plasma LENR work. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 14:12:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31438; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:03:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:03:32 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206153537.00bd7258 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:53:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Another response from Bearden + meandering meditation In-Reply-To: <3A2E9E40.4552353F bellsouth.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206124508.00bd7258 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Ehh-3.0.8h7.pUhBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Here is another response from Bearden. > >I think I understand Tom's fear. If we assume that the MEG *has* >achieved a COP of 10 *and* he has closed the loop, he fears >discussing it because "perpetual motion machines" are routinely >rejected by the USPTO. If that is what he is worried about, all he has to do is leave the claims out of the patent application, the way CETI did. The application can say this is a highly efficient motor. He can tell anyone else that it is a perpetual motion machine. The P.O. has no authority to examine or consider what he tells other people, and it does not care what capabilities of the machine might have aside from the ones stated in the patent. If you invent a new computer printer which happens to be ideal for peeling apples, you can use it or sell it for that purpose, even if "peeling apples" is not listed in your patent. Bearden has been working on this machine for many years. I'm sure he is aware of the P.O. rules by now. More to the point, I believe that most scientists and engineers today will look at the way he presents the machine, and the way he dances around the issue of self-sustaining performance, and they will conclude that he is an out-and-out fraud. His refusal to perform this test make no sense otherwise. If he wants credibility, I suppose he must perform the test. I gather he believes the test would not work, yet the machine is producing excess energy -- but I do not follow his argument. He keeps talking about heat pumps, but this has to be an analogy, not a statement of physics. Heat is not electricity. His machine outputs electricity. Therefore it cannot function the way a heat pump works, because there is no pool of free, low potential electric energy lying around ready to be tapped and moved by the electrical analog of a heat pump -- unless it turns out the ZPE is such a pool. Wandering on about this topic, and tying it in with some other things we have discussed here . . . The truth is, I have heard the same confusion about heat pumps and thermodynamics from many naive "inventors" over the years. They do not understand the limits of the Second Law and the Carnot Cycle. Bearden sounds a lot more educated than your typical misguided perpetual motion machine tinkerer. I cannot follow his arguments. But I suspect that when you scrape away the veneer of complex terminology, classic equilibrium, and Prigogine's Nobel Prize, you will find he is saying the same thing as these other people say, and I'm sure they are dead wrong. Physics is a crude model of reality. It is only an approximation, and many systems -- such as a glass of warm water in a refrigerator -- turn out to be much more complex than we imagined they could be, and perhaps more complex than mankind will ever grasp. But that does not mean thermodynamics and other elementary laws are wrong! Take the physics equations that Mitchell Jones scribbled out to disapprove the Mpemba effect. They were mathematically correct, and the laws they are based on are right, but those laws do not apply to a warm glass of water in a refrigerator. Jones thought they tell the whole story, but experiments prove he is wrong. His model is incomplete; there are terms he is not aware of and did not take into account, such as evaporation and the effect of thermal gradients. The Mpemba effect does NOT prove that Newton's law of cooling is wrong! People often apply a simple set of equations like Jones' when modeling a calorimeter. Ohmori did that when I visited him. His model is so crude that with mercury thermometers you can see where the data begins to deviate from it, at temperatures below 95 degrees. There is no harm in using a crude model -- a gross approximation -- as long as you understand the limitations, and the domain to which it applies. Fleischmann, McKubre or Miles create models of calorimeters which are *far* more detailed than Ohmori's. They cover a wide range of special cases, especially at low temperatures and low current density. They take into account many physical phenomena and their associated terms which Ohmori either ignores, or lumps together. But at some level, even Fleischmann's model is an approximation. ALL physics is an approximation; there is ALWAYS more going on in the system than we know about. (I am not talking about errors in instruments, or noise; I mean there are always more underlying undiscovered physical phenomena.) When you look closely at the events occurring in the calorimeter, you will eventually uncover phenomena which Fleischmann ignores, such as heat transported by bubbles. Under peculiar circumstances, at extremely low power, these phenomena might suddenly begin to play a major role in the performance of the calorimeter, and Fleischmann's equations would no longer work. Fleischmann and Miles understand all this, and they know the limits of their models, and how far these limits have been tested experimentally. Steve Jones does not understand these limitations, and he does not realize that a model may break down when you push a critical parameter three orders of magnitude below the levels you tested in null experiments. How much is there left to learn about a glass of warm water in a refrigerator, or the performance of a calorimeter? The answer is that the U.S. could devote its entire GDP to the study of these two phenomena for the next 100 years and we would still not exhaust the problems. Just one aspect -- the structure and physics of water -- will probably challenge our species until it becomes extinct. Years ago, I knew an airplane engineer who worked aboard B-52 bombers during the Vietnam War. He built bicycles later on. I asked him how much would cost to develop the ultimate high-performance bicycle. He said it could take as many billions or trillions of dollars as society cared to invest. No problem in physics or engineering is ever completely solved. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 14:14:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15810; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:03:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:03:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A2EB8D6.6161FBF3 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:08:22 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan References: <3a32a63f.825440440@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ewFdC.0.os3.BUhBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > BTW, yellow fever is one of the VHF's (Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers), and > has been known for quite some time. "Dengue, Ebola, and Lassa Fever make up three of the most common viral hemorrhagic fevers. Of the three, Dengue has the longest history, dating back to 1779. Lassa Fever was first described in the 1950’s and the Ebola virus did not first surface in humans until approximately 1976." http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/academic/honors/als398/classr~1.html Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 15:17:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12815; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:14:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:14:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a32a63f.825440440 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:33:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"nWhY53.0.483.6XiBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitchell, > >On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:26:37 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>>So, you're saying specific hemorrhagic fevers have recently emerged, >>>and I agree. I'm saying they've been around, and known, (though the >>>specific infective agent or process may not have been known) for a >>>long, long time. >>> >>>We don't disagree, from what I can tell. >> >>***{I think we do. The articles I cited state that Argentine hemorrhagic >>fever was the first hemorrhagic fever to be identified, and strongly >>suggest that the first descriptions of Argentine hemorrhagic fever entered >>the medical literature in the 1950's, > > >Hmm. So, you're saying that hemorrhagic fevers are new to the world >(since the 1950's or so) ***{The articles that I have cited say that, not me. I am merely noting the implications--to wit: that these viruses may be of extraterrestrial origin. --MJ}*** and I'm saying they've been around a long >time. Okay, we disagree. > >To me, the word "emergent" means that these diseases have been present >all along, but have only recently "emerged" from their local, isolated >habitats due to various factors -- mainly increased human mobility and >communication. To you, "emergent" apparently means these are new >diseases which have "emerged" from some other disease. > >IMO, your use of the word "emergent" is incorrect. ***{This is not about the use of a word, but about the proper interpretation of the cited references (and others not cited) which I interpret to mean that medical practitioners first investigated the hemorrhagic fevers that cause external bleeding--which are caused by arenaviruses--in the 1950's. Here is one of those narratives again: > "SOUTH AMERICAN HEMORRHAGIC FEVERS > Source: PAHO press release, June 15, 1995 > The South American arenaviruses provide an important example of how > exploitation of new areas for human settlement and agriculture will > increase the likelihood that new infectious diseases will emerge. A new > member of this group of rodent-borne viruses has been discovered on the > average of every three years since the first was isolated in 1956. Some > are not pathogenic for humans, but 5 cause human disease and 3 of these > are important regional health problems in Argentina (Junin virus; > Argentine hemorrhagic fever), Bolivia (Machupo virus; Bolivian hemorrhagic > fever), and Venezuela (Guanarito virus; Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever). > Each of these diseases exemplifies a different aspect of the natural > history of these viruses and their interaction with man. Argentine > hemorrhagic fever was first described in the rich agricultural zones of > the pampas in 1958 and has spread so that it now affects 10 times the > initial area and infects several hundreds of people annually. Neither the > origin of the virus nor the cause for its spread through the rodents that > serve as its reservoir and vector are known. The Bolivian virus emerged in > the early 1960's as humans increasingly settled the verdant plains east of > the Andes and began to suffer from "black typhus" (the name initially used > locally for Bolivian hemorrhagic fever) as increasing numbers of the > infected rodents entered their homes. Machupo virus and Bolivian > hemorrhagic fever re-emerged in 1994, affecting 5 of 7 household members > residing near the city of Magdalena in the remote and sparsely populated > Bolivian Department of Beni The Venezuelan virus was first discovered in > 1990 in a zone in which tropical forest was removed to permit the > establishment of small farms and ranches. I fail to see how the above description can be interpreted any other way than as a statement that these diseases first entered the medical literature in the 1950's. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Here's a reference to one that was identified in the early 1900's. > >(from: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/rvf.htm) >"Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers: >Fact Sheets >What is Rift Valley Fever? >Rift Valley fever (RVF) is an acute, fever-causing viral disease that >affects domestic animals (such as cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, and >camels) and humans. RVF is most commonly associated with >mosquito-borne epidemics during years of heavy rainfall. The disease >is caused by the RVF virus, a member of the genus Phlebovirus in the >family Bunyaviridae. The disease was first reported among livestock by >veterinary officers in Kenya in the early 1900s." ***{This example is irrelevant to the issue: Rift Valley fever is not caused by an arenavirus, its fatality rate is very low (about 1%), and the bleeding that causes it to be classified as hemorrhagic is rare in occurrence and internal--which means: it is not externally visible. Result: it does not have the characteristics I am talking about. As I noted the other day, I am talking about hemorrhagic fevers that are caused by arenaviruses. The reason, which I have stated repeatedly, is that these viruses produce *external* bleeding--from the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, etc--and thus have a shock effect on bystanders which make these afflictions impossible to miss. It it only for this class of diseases that I argue it is implausible that they were not noticed until recently, and hence conclude that they could not have been around for very long before they were noticed. Think about it: if a guy walks past you bleeding from the eyes, ears, nose, and mouith, are you going to notice? *That's my point.* Discussion of diseases that are "hemorrhagic" in the sense of causing *internal* bleeding are irrelevant. That's not what I am talking about. --MJ}*** > >I could probably do more digging to show that native people in >formerly isolated areas were aware of these diseases, but I don't have >the time right now. > >BTW, yellow fever is one of the VHF's (Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers), and >has been known for quite some time. ***{Again, this is irrelevant: yellow fever sometimes causes bloody stools. The bleeding is internal, not external. Likewise for Dengue hemorrhagic fever. Also, these diseases are not caused by arenaviruses. --MJ}*** > >So far, vaccines have been developed for yellow fever and Argentine >hemorrhagic fever. > >See: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/vhf.htm > > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ***{In order to cite a reference that undercuts the reasoning by which I argued that Ebola and similar hemorrhagic fevers are, or may be, extraterrestrial in origin, you need to find an arenavirus which causes obvious external bleeding and which was discussed in the medical literature hundreds of years ago. But if the articles I have cited are accurate, you can't do it. Result: it is possible, and perhaps even likely, that these viruses are extraterrestrial in origin. That, at any rate, is the idea which I am putting forth for consideration. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 16:25:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22101; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:14:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:14:46 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:40:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eO4R93.0.CP5.sPjBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than >cold water. The thought experiment that I described earlier was >deliberately constructed to ensure that the "other things equal" condition >strictly applied: two beakers of pure water were raised to a temperature of >X degrees C under identical conditions, and given time for differences such >as internal turbulence, quantities of dissolved gases, etc., to equalize. Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the experiment kept coming out the other way. >B. Under such conditions, "other things" are *forced* to be equal. Result: >beaker A *always and necessarily* is going to freeze before beaker B. The >implication: the "Mpemba effect" is based on an invalid experimental design In other words, if things do not work the way Mitchell Jones says they should work, it's experimental error. The Model Is Always Right, and Jones knows all there is to know about water. Experts like Franks who say that water is one of the most complex and least understood substances are full of nonsense. It's a two-dimensional, black and white world out there. OooKaaay. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 16:25:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18708; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:19:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:19:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:26:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, Newman Resent-Message-ID: <"LwXHl.0.Ea4.IUjBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Of Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, or Newman, does anyone know if any of these individuals has ever patented or designed a product of any kind that has been successfully marketed? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 17:45:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08939; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:41:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:41:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:12:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: "Desufator" Lead Acid Batteries Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sMOLG1.0.QB2.xgkBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, I know there are several issues with Lead Acid and other aqueous liquid electrolyte batteries and their exposure to current and voltages of levels that are and are not suggested by the manufacturers. BUT: I do Not know of a comprehensive listing of these effects.... SO: I ask all Vos to add to a list... beginning here ... so we may all be aware of these varied effects. 1] Dendrite effects: Dendrites in this context are little threads or hair-like metal, metal alloy and or metal salts and or combinations of these ... which, in general, extend from one electrode toward another.... These "hairs" often cause a battery system to be degraded and there are several mechanisms of degradation ... mostly the idea is that they are shunts. There are several methods... over the years... that people have used to combat these "hairs" and the manufacturers have made huge improvements. I am aware of only one method of getting rid of the hairs that bears directly on some types of non steady state "O-U" devices: A) Blasting Hairs You can apply large voltages and or currents... in the normal and-or opposite polarity. Everyone seems to have a favorite "this method works best"... But, in general, the Blasting Method causes the hairs to be reduced and-or eliminated by using short powerful or simply short pulses to cause the hair to be disturbed or damaged. After "Blasting" many 'dead or poor' batteries work better. sometimes this is only temporary... sometimes it is for a long time. PLEASE: Will everyone who knows a method please add to this list? John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 18:12:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11225; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:09:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Open letter from Ken Shoulders Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:09:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5ort2t0iqpdk93v7phrhgh8tqh407l4qhu 4ax.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5 938 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA11199 Resent-Message-ID: <"bRB2a.0.El2.s5lBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:37:00 -0500: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>I wrote to KS offline and received a courteous reply. > >Great! Ask him how he measures his input and output. Ask him whether anyone >has replicated his results. He will probably bite your head off, but if he >doesn't let us know the answers. [snip] It is already clear from his previous reply to you that the figure of .5-3000 relates to individual EV impacts. He pointed out to me that such impacts don't produce heat, but do punch holes in things. Consequently I can only assume that his output energy estimates are based upon a calculation of the amount of energy required to punch such a hole. However I also believe that he is still somewhat mystified as to the actual process involved. IOW I personally would not place much value on the calculations as they stand, based as they appear to be, on a less than perfect understanding of the process. It would be great if Ken could receive some aid, both theoretical and financial in this work, as there does appear to be an anomaly worth investigating. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 18:22:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12487; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:20:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:20:35 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:24:25 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a33ab52.826739732 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA12449 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ik4fR.0.133.oFlBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:26:37 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >(2) The panspermia theory, when applied to hemorrhagic fevers, suggests >that these viruses may not have been present on Earth prior to that >time--that, instead, they may have been brought to Earth more recently, >carried here by small comets or meteorites. > >(3) It could be that intelligent aliens, as is frequently claimed, have >come to Earth and are abducting earthlings and doing experiments on them, >and the purpose of the experiments may be to engineer a virus that can wipe >out humans so the Earth can be colonized by aliens. If so, the hemorrhagic >fevers may have been seeded on Earth by them. I can't disagree with either of these lines of reasoning. There have been reports from the middle ages where diseases swept populations after comets or other strange events/figures were seen. Most of these diseases were not hemorrhagic fevers, though. >In my view, (1) is implausible because, in fact, people have been living in >these areas for a long time, and I simply do not believe that occasional >cases of these diseases in humans could have been avoided; nor do I believe >that, when such cases occurred, they could have been kept out of the >medical literature. The symptoms are simply too bizarre to have been >ignored. The symptoms are bizarre, but the population of humans local to the (usually) rodents carrying the disease developed an immunity over a long time. So, only isolated individuals in that population who were 1) without immunity and 2) had contact with an infective agent would get the disease. The disease was known to the locals, but was rare. Since it was rare, it wasn't picked up or acknowledged by Western medicine. Tetanus is endemic (widely prevalent) in almost all the dirt in the USA (and probably elsewhere). Yet few people get tetanus (even those without tetanus shots). The problem is "how does one catch the disease." The viral infections we're discussing have been relatively unknown because there are plenty of places in the world where getting infected is highly unlikely. For example, there are a few hemorrhagic fever carriers in Europe. But most of Europe, these days, is quite clean. That is, rodents are kept well under control, and the sanitary standards of people are quite high. As a result, there are no widespread outbreaks of hemorrhagic fevers in Europe. The same for the USA (there is a hemorrhagic fever prevalent in the SW USA -- the Hanta virus). It's only when someone contracts one of these viruses, and then travels and/or comes into contact with lots of other people, can an outbreak occur. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:12:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20693; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:02:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:02:43 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Desufator" Lead Acid Batteries Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 03:00:42 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a33fc2a.847438775 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA20500 Resent-Message-ID: <"b3zoa.0.835.JtlBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Addition below. On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:12:24 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote: > I know there are several issues with Lead Acid and other aqueous >liquid electrolyte batteries and their exposure to current and voltages >of levels that are and are not suggested by the manufacturers. > > BUT: I do Not know of a comprehensive listing of these >effects.... > > SO: I ask all Vos to add to a list... beginning here ... so we >may all be aware of these varied effects. > > 1] > > Dendrite effects: Dendrites in this context are little threads or >hair-like metal, metal alloy and or metal salts and or combinations of >these ... which, in general, extend from one electrode toward another.... > These "hairs" often cause a battery system to be degraded and >there are several mechanisms of degradation ... mostly the idea is that >they are shunts. > > There are several methods... over the years... that people have >used to combat these "hairs" and the manufacturers have made huge >improvements. > > I am aware of only one method of getting rid of the hairs that >bears directly on some types of non steady state "O-U" devices: > > A) Blasting Hairs > > You can apply large voltages and or currents... in the normal >and-or opposite polarity. Everyone seems to have a favorite "this method >works best"... But, in general, the Blasting Method causes the hairs to be >reduced and-or eliminated by using short powerful or simply short pulses >to cause the hair to be disturbed or damaged. > After "Blasting" many 'dead or poor' batteries work better. >sometimes this is only temporary... sometimes it is for a long time. > > PLEASE: > Will everyone who knows a method please add to this list? 2) Plate sulfation (buildup of lead sulfate on the plates, with or without dendrites) A quote from: http://www.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/pureresearch?op=merchant-further_info-null "Well over 70% of batteries fail due to lead sulphate build-up on the battery plates. Batteries produce electricity by way of chemical change. Lead sulphate is formed naturally during discharges and absorbed during recharges. All batteries self-discharge by internal leakage of 0.1% -1% each day, more if a parasitic drain such as an alarm or clock or computer is connected. Long discharge periods build up a unbalanced amount of lead sulphate (a poor conductor of electricity) coating the plates to the point where it then inhibits the battery’s ability to accept a recharge. Over time the lead sulphate thickens and battery performance plummets leading to premature battery failure. Summer temperatures help mask any progressive failure, keeping the apparent reserve capacity high. Winter inactivity and the cooler Spring lowers volts and increases engine drag (thicker oil). The declining battery efficiency cannot cope with the increased load meaning a costly replacement. EDTA Ethylenediaminetetra-acetic acid is a complex chemical compound commonly used in industrial and medical processes. When added to lead-acid batteries it chelates (bonds) with the lead sulphate dislodging it from the battery plates. The sulphuric acid in the electrolyte then breaks down the bond so releasing the EDTA to repeat the process. " Also, as I mentioned in my message in the thread "Response from Bearden," in addition to destroying dendrites, high voltage pulses will also reduce the amount of sulfate on the battery plates. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:36:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01487; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:22:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:22:00 -0800 (PST) From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 02:44:30 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a32f8f8.846621170 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA01412 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yj6ZG1.0.6N.D9mBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:33:41 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Again, this is irrelevant: yellow fever sometimes causes bloody stools. >The bleeding is internal, not external. Likewise for Dengue hemorrhagic >fever. Also, these diseases are not caused by arenaviruses. --MJ}*** Umm, you're changing word meanings (again?). Most hemorrhagic fevers don't produce obvious external bleeding -- even Ebola -- except in a few people. Almost all is internal bleeding. I'm out of the discussion. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:58:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08747; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:50:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:50:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV's Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:28:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA08463 Resent-Message-ID: <"ppVHf3.0.X82.SZmBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:30:15 -0900: >At 5:09 PM 12/6/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >[snip] >>As far as I can tell at the moment, this means you win :). >[snip] > > >Sounds like a possible statement by Al Gore on election night here in the >US. 8^) Does the future hold interminable recounts, debate, hearing, and >pregnant chad issues? Probably does! 8^) [snip] Surely, but you can be president until I can can up with something better! ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 19:58:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29563; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:39:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:38:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"MUAtC1.0.mD7.NPmBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than >>cold water. The thought experiment that I described earlier was >>deliberately constructed to ensure that the "other things equal" condition >>strictly applied: two beakers of pure water were raised to a temperature of >>X degrees C under identical conditions, and given time for differences such >>as internal turbulence, quantities of dissolved gases, etc., to equalize. > >Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues >tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the >experiment kept coming out the other way. > > >>B. Under such conditions, "other things" are *forced* to be equal. Result: >>beaker A *always and necessarily* is going to freeze before beaker B. The >>implication: the "Mpemba effect" is based on an invalid experimental design > >In other words, if things do not work the way Mitchell Jones says they >should work, it's experimental error. The Model Is Always Right, and Jones >knows all there is to know about water. Experts like Franks who say that >water is one of the most complex and least understood substances are full >of nonsense. It's a two-dimensional, black and white world out there. >OooKaaay. > >- Jed ***{As I said in an earlier reply to Bill, when both the logic and the facts are clear, they invariably agree. However, when one is not clear and a choice is required, here is the way to go: (1) Logic beats "facts"--which means: when the logic is clear and the "facts" are not, go with the logic. (2) Facts beat "logic"--which means: when the facts are clear and the logic is not, go with the facts. With regard to my proof, the logic is clear and the "facts"--i.e., the details of the various experiments that supposedly contradict that logic--are not clear. Result: my logic beats those "facts." You may not like that state of affairs, but that's the way it is. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 6 22:21:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07337; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:19:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:19:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A2E9DBB.B101DC74 gte.net> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:12:47 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a9Ykp.0.Zo1.aloBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is another case of over-unity insufficient for self-sustainment. Santilli's hadronic reactors (http://www.magnegas.com) have a "commercial over-unity" of five independently certified by Motorfuelers, Inc., yet they cannot be self-sustaining because two out of five units of energy are contained in the MagneGas produced and the remaining three in the heat produced. I view of the very low efficiency of electric generators (30% or so) none of these two energies can be sufficient to produced electric energy sufficient for self-sustainment. The point is that lack of self-sustainment for serious commercial over-unities is considered disqualifying only by thrashy guys. Hugo IBR Europe PS. For people who are not awar e of "commercial over-unity", it is referred to the ratio between the energy produced and the input energy PAID FOR, and NOT the total input energy That'sat least 5 for Santilli's hadronic reactors operating at atmospheric pressure and low kWh [much bigger over-unities - I am told - are expected ai bigger pressures and amps]. The "scientific energy balance" is given by the ration between the energy produced and the TOTAL energy input which must be evidently be ALWAYS smaller than 1. In Santilli's hadronic reactors the total energy input is given by the electric energy used for the operation of the reactor plus the energy contained in the liquid to be recycled. The latter is included in the scientific energy balance yielding under-unity, while it is not included in the commercial energy balance, yielding over-unity evidently because it BRINGS $$$ RATHER THAN COSTING MONEY. ************************ hamdi ucar wrote: > Hi, > > It is often said that experiment having overunity characteristics have difficulty > on running closed loop, self sustaining. > > There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a device > appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on > experiments producing directly electrical output. > > I categorize these reasons as conventional and non conventional. Conventional > mean understand by classical electrical / electromagnetic theories. Non conventional > explanations would be either in the quantum physics, or need "new physics". > By new physics, I mean unknown phenomena are producing anomalous measurements, results. > New physics would not be necessary violation of laws, but anything is not covered > by mostly referred theories. > > A) Conventional causes preventing closed loop, self sustaining operations: > > 1) Output power load element is the critical part of the circuit, modifying > its characteristics destroy the phenomenon. Characteristics of the load element > would not merely defined by I-V (impedance). > > 2) Load element is floating, it is not possible simply to couple it to other > circuits or to other part of the circuit. Even the power signal appears > suitable to conversion (i.e. by diodes or transformer), the full signal > may have other components, vital for the device work, (i.e. hf) which are > altered by conversion elements, thus ceasing the device works or leave the > regime. > > 3) Interference. Any kind of interference, electrical, magnetic, electromagnetic, > from the device or from the environment, from the measurement circuits, affect > the regime, or destroy the effect. Self interference may also occurs when tried > to make a closed loop. > > 4) Not-so-obvious unsuitable measurement conditions may lead erroneous measurement, > appearing as overunity. Change of load impedance would be a common cause. > Consider a situation of superimposed signal having frequency or amplitude out > of range of measurement equipment is present on the load element. It may possible > this signal cause nonlinerarity on load or on measurement devices. > > B) Quantum properties of the components play role on phenomena. We can not substitute > electrons, macroscopically as a current, and their path as current carriers, > virtualize as component as defined at electrical circuit theory. > > It would be summarized that quantum phenomena may affect electrical characteristics > of components, leading erroneous measurements. I am thinking that it is possible > also quantum properties of electrical components (including electrons) may allow > the energy carried and exhibited differently than defined on electrical theory. > > Please remember that all physics rules are basically generalizations of common > observations. Rules are economic way to understand phenomena. If one deal with > a non regular, non common experiment conditions, it would not be surprised that > results would not obey these rules. This situation is simply "no economic way to > understand this phenomenon". Extending the theoretical scope would be necessary. > > A figured two (hypothetical) example for above but letter become too lengthy. I > would post them separately if you are interested. > > AS summary, a device may depend on quantum effects on its operation and energy > flow, exhibition depend on quantum characteristics of components not macroscopic > values defined on electrical theory. In this situation, it is not possible to modify > a circuit to close the loop (self sustaining) in the guidelines of electrical theory. > > C) New Physics: > If it is considered a new physics on the experiment (obviously on operations are > really producing extra energy), without a theoretical guidelines (ironically, there > are many new physics theories, but offers little guidelines), it would be very hard > to redesign a circuit to make it self sustaining. Relying voltage-current > characteristics to figure out energy output of a device would be very misleading > in the case of new physics is considered. I am not joking, really. > > It is very bad idea to try to modify extend a device for self sustaining operation before > energies are measured by calorimetric methods. Calorimetry would be more safer than > electrical measurements, IMO. Anyway, if the produced energy is usable, it would not be > hard to find a method to convert to heat. > > Conclusion: > Dont blame self-sustaing failures. Blame who dont tries calorimetry. > > Note: > It would be possible to build a self sustaining device but in OPEN LOOP to avoid > interference by using cycling (manually) batteries between input and output. > > Anybody is against this operation would be considered as self sustaining? > > Regards, > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 00:09:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA30425; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:08:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:08:56 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:16:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"NU6up.0.JR7.OMqBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:28 PM 12/7/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Surely, but you can be president until I can can up with something better! >;) OK, but I resign so my successor can grant me clemancy before I am prosecuted for any nefarious acts I may have commited in office or on the way up. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 05:13:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA00549; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:12:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:12:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:13:42 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Stirling engine X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207070827.02fb93c8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ElXYs.0.T8.kouBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, I just took delivery of the coolest physics toy to come along in quite some time. It's a Stirling engine that will run off the heat of your hand....a 4 degree C delta-T to be exact. To see a photo of it, go to http://www.smallparts.com/ and click on "Engine model" under "Stirling Cycle Technology" on the left side of the page. As you can see from that ad, this thing cost $300 but, after receiving it, I think it's worth every penny. It is a marvelous construct, every rotating point has a miniature ball-bearing. It runs silently and perfectly smoothly. In a "cool" room (72F or below) you place the engine on your outstretched palm, wait 30-60 seconds for the lower plate to warm, then give the wheel a tiny push...and it begins running! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 05:15:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01191; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:15:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:17:15 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Stirling engine X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207071649.02fc6f10 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"aAhxe.0.XI.UruBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ...and here's the website of the folks who actually made this little engine: http://www.stirlingengine.com Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 05:23:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03841; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:22:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:22:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2F9094.2D2C0F7C bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:28:52 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: No Ebola in Karachi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B825ACF0A16FA719DDF93174" Resent-Message-ID: <"tl2_T.0.tx.PyuBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B825ACF0A16FA719DDF93174 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It wasn't even Karachi. Terry <><><><><><><><><> --------------B825ACF0A16FA719DDF93174 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail22.bellsouth.net (mail22.bellsouth.net [209.215.32.172]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id XAA05251 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from spine.brain.net.pk (IDENT:root spine.brain.net.pk [203.128.3.18]) by mail22.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id AAA21283 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from brain.brain.net.pk (brain.brain.net.pk [203.128.7.10]) by spine.brain.net.pk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29839 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:51:21 +0500 Received: from oemcomputer (fiber9-15.brain.net.pk [203.128.9.15]) by brain.brain.net.pk (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id JAA08205 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:54:25 +0500 (PKT) Message-ID: <00cc01c06009$50fe7740$0c0980cb oemcomputer> From: "Ahmed Rashid" To: Subject: ahmed rashid Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:47:29 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C06032.B6F95A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C06032.B6F95A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Terry Blanton, In reply to your email. The piece I wrote about Ebola for the Telegraph = which you asked about was badly truncated. What was missing in the = cutting of the article was the fact that it was an Ebola type virus that = has hit, that 9 people died in Baluchistan in September and not Karachi. = The main base for this story were reports in the Pakistani press and = also a news release put out by IRIN, the UN information network based in = Islamabad which quote the head of WHO in Pakistan, yours sincerely, ahmed rashid. Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia = correspondent for the Daily Telegraph. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C06032.B6F95A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Terry Blanton,
 
In reply to your email. The piece I = wrote about=20 Ebola for the Telegraph which you asked about was badly truncated. What = was=20 missing in the cutting of the article was the fact that it was an Ebola = type=20 virus that has hit, that 9 people died in Baluchistan in September and = not=20 Karachi. The main base for this story were reports in the Pakistani = press and=20 also a news release put out by IRIN, the UN information network based in = Islamabad which quote the head of WHO in Pakistan,
 
yours sincerely, ahmed rashid. = Pakistan,=20 Afghanistan and Central Asia correspondent for the Daily=20 Telegraph.
------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C06032.B6F95A00-- --------------B825ACF0A16FA719DDF93174-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 06:09:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17888; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:08:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:08:24 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207085734.00bdafb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:08:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Another message from Bearden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NbWoQ.0.QN4.OdvBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am not sure why I did it, but I sent on last cautious message to Bearden yesterday advising him to try a self sustaining test. I suggested he use two or more machines, since he seems to think that one machine cannot sustain itself. He responded with the following, which makes absolutely no sense to me. Perhaps someone else reading this forum will appreciate his ideas. I gather he does believe that free electrical energy permeates the universe, in a way analogous to heat that can be 'moved' by a heat pump. - Jed Reply-To: From: "Tom Bearden" To: "Jed Rothwell" Cc: "Eugene Mallove" , "Hal Fox" , "Ken Shoulders" Subject: Third and final response Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 01:00:04 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal Jed, After repeatedly answering the same non sequiturs you are advancing, you still are beating the same erroneous "overunity system must be a closed-loop system" dead horse. Three times, Jed, and you're out. And that was your third strike. Read my lips: We have not advertised a closed-loop overunity MEG machine, but an open-loop overunity COP = 10 MEG system. Which one of those English words do you not understand??? Whether a scientist "likes" the open-loop MEG or not is immaterial. That is what we have and advertise. And that is what we will prove. You believe that close-looping a heat pump of COP = 4.0 would be against the laws of nature. You know nothing of the changes and reductions inflicted on Maxwell's electrodynamics by Heaviside, Lorentz, and others, etc. nor what those reductions imply with respect to the Maxwellian systems they prescribe. You know little or nothing of the difference between curl-free A-potential, curled A-potential (magnetic field), and what results when you use both of them in the same circuit and remove the curled A from the "general A", leaving an uncurled A of the same magnitude as the first A, while also retaining the removed "curled A", and then proceed to extract energy from both the energy flows. You apparently have no inkling as to what Whittaker decomposition of the scalar potential between the poles of a dipole means or shows. I have to doubt that you have read Whittaker's 1903 paper, much less understood it. You obviously do not understand the difference between efficiency (what fraction of the energy available to it a system it uses effectively in its loads, and does not "lose" and waste), and COP (how much useful work is done in the load, divided by how much energy the operator himself has to input to the system, regardless of its efficiency). Got news for you, Jed. A system can be only 10% efficient, and yet have a COP>1.0 if the operator still has to input less than what gets output in the load. That applies to ANY system, be it a battery, generator, motor, or whatever. Worst of all, you suggest that "all the experts you have checked with" already know exactly what has to be or can be done in an overunity EM machine, and that therefore you yourself know because they have advised you. I daresay that not one of them has ever built a working model overunity EM generator, either closed-loop or open loop. Neither apparently have you. Probably not one of your "experts" has ever SEEN one. Yet they are seemingly aware of all the extra EM phenomena one gets when one breaks the Lorentz regauging condition. SURE they are! Excuse me for smiling; but that is laughable. I fervently wish it were so easy to become knowledgeable in overunity EM power systems, and there were lots of experts in them already. Then there would be well-developed textbooks on overunity systems. And it would not have taken me some 30 years of very hard work and a great part of my life to have even the VERY SMALL understanding I do have of such systems after working with four different types by different inventors. I certainly do realize how very much more there is still to learn about COP>1.0 EM systems. Old dogs like me will have gotten only so far in their own lifetime; the rest will have to be uncovered by those sharp young grad students, post docs, and inventors still with many years of life to live. But I'm happy to know that all these mysterious folks -- not a single one of whom ever has ever calculated the magnitude of a potential (NOBODY has; if you think they have, try to find it!) but only its reaction cross section, or ever calculated the Heaviside nondiverged component of energy flow from the terminals of a generator (trillions of times larger than the measly Poynting component they all calculate) -- are such real, bonafide experts in overunity EM systems. Gosh, with such vast experience and definitive knowledge of the area, they must therefore have produced thousands of such overunity EM systems -- close-looped as per your adamant reassertions -- already on the market. If they don't have them out there, and you don't have them out there, and yet they are such vast experts, then how do you rationalize their total failure to produce results on the lab bench and systems on the market? Where are the textbooks and thousands of learned overunity system papers they have written? How many patents have they filed on legitimate, working overunity EM power systems? On what grounds are they then such bonafide "experts"? Tell you what. Get one of them to show you a legitimate calculation -- by them or anywhere in the literature -- of the magnitude of the EM energy pouring out of the terminals of every battery and generator, and MISSING the external circuit entirely and being wasted. You can see an illustration of that energy in the Kraus reference I already cited for you (and which I suspect you have not read and are not going to read). Now let those vast "experts" explain where and how a 1 watt circuit may output some 10 trillion watts of nondiverged Heaviside EM energy flow outside the circuit and missing it entirely, and "catch" and collect and use only one little watt inside the circuit. Neither you nor your "experts" have apparently ever even seen or worked with an overunity EM power generator. If you have, where is the independent test result by a government-certified, independent test laboratory? Where is the completely independent replication by an impeccable outside team, preferably under excellent university auspices or U.S. government auspices? You yourself have no valid concept of what is rigorously required to produce an overunity EM generator, nor are you seemingly aware that COP>1.0 automatically invokes negentropy. How many truly "negentropic" EM machines have you or your "experts" ever seen, built, or examined theoretically and experimentally after watching it work and measuring it? Not one. How many such negentropic EM overunity systems have you tried to close-loop? Not one. In short, you and your "experts" apparently have zero overunity EM system experience. Hence the ensemble has zero expertise. You got the expertise, you can build the systems. You can't build the systems, you don't got the expertise. If these mysterious experts so easily found are so knowledgeable, then why do not they explain Chung's proven overunity (negative resistor) results? Or Bohren's proven and replicated overunity experiment, in the literature and replicated now for some time? Have you heard of the Aharonov-Bohm experiment? There are thousands of rigorous papers dealing with that now well-known effect, where you strip and hold all the magnetic field (the curled A from a magnetic vector potential A, yet you still have the vector potential (uncurled) A outside the stripper/holder. Have you realized that the AB effect is automatically an overunity effect? Probably not. Or for that matter, let us challenge these "vast experts" to explain precisely where a "source charge" gets its energy from, so that it continuously pours out 3-space energy in all directions at light speed to establish its associated fields and their energy. You can take your instruments and show that it does that in a Faraday cage, where it is receiving no observable energy in 3-space. As I patiently pointed out to you, that is already recognized as possibly the greatest problem in electrodynamics, both quantal and classical. Here you REALLY have a free energy effect, absolutely proven, because real EM energy pours continuously out in space in all directions from any and every charge in the universe. WHERE does all that energy pouring out of a "source charge" come from? If you suddenly produce a charge (say, by lifting an coulomb of electrons from the Dirac sea), you can measure the flow of the energy at light speed in all directions. Wait one year, and you will have a volume of one lightyear in radius, filled with energy in the form of field and potential energy, that poured out of that charge without you adding a single bit more energy. And the energy is still pouring out, and the volume is still expanding. Again, there is no 3-spatial input of energy to the charge at all. So where did all that 3-space energy come from and continue to come from indefinitely? Your "experts" in classical EM use the classical EM model that implicitly assumes that the source charge simply CREATES all that outpouring energy right out of nothing. Well, that makes them the greatest "perpetual motion advocates" in the universe, for they would have us believe that the source charge creates energy from nothing, therefore grossly violating the master energy law that energy cannot be created or destroyed. I have proposed a precise explanation in a formally published paper (see "Giant Negentropy from the Common Dipole", in the latest edition of Journal of New Energy), and the charge turns out to be an open-loop, overunity (in 3-space) EM system far from 3-space energy flow equilibrium. Yet your words would imply that, because that source charge as a system is not close-looped with its own output 3-space energy (it does continuously receive the energy from the complex plane, from the TIME domain!), it is not a "genuine" overunity system and therefore cannot possibly be producing all that vast free 3-space energy continually pouring out of it in its fields and potentials reaching across the universe. Do you or any of your "experts" have the foggiest notion of what a time-like longitudinal EM energy flow is? If they do not, then they have not the slightest understanding of the common scalar potential. Perhaps you might like to read some 20 rigorous AIAS papers in the hard literature, already clearly dealing with time-like EM energy flow. Or perhaps you would like to examine a scalar (time polarized) photon, where the EM energy is vibrating in the time dimension, but not in 3-space. Sorry, Jed, but all EM energy comes directly from the time domain. Whittaker showed that all potential energy comes from the time domain in 1903. In 1904 he showed that all EM fields and waves are naught but two such scalar potential functions with impressed dynamics, thereby founding what is called superpotential theory. So since all EM is based on the scalar potentials, and all the 3-space EM energy in each of them comes from the time domain, then all EM comes from the time domain. That is the very basis of overunity EM processes. Have any of your "experts" advised you on that? Do you have the foggiest notion of what the discovery by particle physicists, in the 1950s, of the broken 3-symmetry of a charge MEANS? It means the charge continuously receives energy in a nonobservable, unusable form, NOT FROM OR IN 3-SPACE, and outputs it in observable (3-spatial) usable EM energy form. Hence the charge is an open-loop overunity free energy EM device. You blew it, because your own "expert advisers" apparently convinced you that such is not a "real overunity EM machine". Every charge, potential, and dipole in the university simply demolishes that argument. In short, Jed, your entire thesis is simply falsified by any and every common old charged particle in the entire universe. Of course, you have the right not to personally PREFER an open-loop COP = 10 overunity EM generator system! Fine! That is certainly your prerogative. So you do not "like" the open-loop MEG because it is not close-looped! What has your personal preference got to do with us or with the working open-loop overunity MEG? Nothing except that you personally don't "like" it. Hey! We really do not care whether you "like" the operational open-loop overunity MEG mechanism or not, or whether you "like" the open-loop source charge overunity mechanism or not. The scientific question is simply, "Does it work, and have you had it independently validated by independent test and independent replication?" We have an open-loop COP = 10 overunity device, which we can demonstrate anytime and have now demonstrated to multiple folks, some bringing very highly qualified physicists and Doctors of EE along with them. It is very curious that you do not wish to discuss our legitimate overunity type (3) open-loop device, but absolutely "demand" that we have to make it a type (4) closed-loop device for it to be a "genuine" overunity device. That is a non sequitur. You simply reveal your own lack of knowledge of the actions exhibited by various types of systems far from thermodynamic equilibrium with their active environment, and what it takes to be such a system. You do not realize that, in a heat pump analogy, you have effectively said that a heat pump cannot have COP = 4.0 (its theoretical maximum, by the way, is 8.22; a good practical one has COP = 4.0 in good temperature conditions) unless it can be close-looped. That is, if a system is well into overunity COP, then it can be close-looped is what you said when it came to EM systems. But you have also said that to close loop a heat pump of COP=4.0 would violate the laws of nature, etc. Got some news for you Jed! Maxwell's equations are pure material fluid dynamics equations. Fluid flow phenomena are therefore exact analogies of Maxwellian system phenomena and vice versa, since the equations are the same. If you can close loop an EM overunity system, in theory you can close loop a heat pump. Again you revealed your lack of basic knowledge. And you seem incapable of even seeing your own non sequitur in such a stated view!!! We patiently explained to you and listed the five permissible functions that are permitted (not all are required in a single system!) for an overunity system, according to the legitimate disequilibrium thermodynamics of such systems -- and that thermodynamics is well-known in the scientific literature. Any EM system exhibiting any or several of those functions is a priori a legitimate overunity EM system. Yet you take the totally illogical and dogmatic stance that, if it cannot do type (4) closed-loop operation, then even though it does type (3) operation it cannot be a legitimate overunity system. Frankly, that "conclusion" is patently illogical and flatly wrong. Type three is DEFINED as output of more useful energy (i.e., work) than the energy you input. That is the very definition of a COP > 1.0 system. The longer you persist in such fundamental errors dogmatically, the more you reveal your lack of understanding of disequilibrium systems and their thermodynamics, which is already a well-developed branch of thermodynamics. Let me explain it simply. The number (3) is not the number (4). If a system does the listed action no. 3 (outputs more energy dissipated in the load as work, than we ourselves have to input), it violates classical equilibrium thermodynamics and is a priori a system far from thermodynamic equilibrium with its active environment. It is an overunity system because it outputs more energy than one oneself must input (that is the DEFINITION of a type-3 disequilibrium system, and it is also the definition of a COP>1.0 system, loosely referred to as an "overunity" system). When you continue to object to that, you only reveal either great naivete or profound ignorance. We urge you to simply go study the subject of such thermodynamic systems far from equilibrium with their active environment. We patiently explained that we are arranging to present the scientific community with an impeccably replicated MEG at a fine university under DoD auspices. Please remain skeptical until that is accomplished, but do not be dogmatic! We will also present the results of completely independent testing of the MEG by a U.S. government-certified test laboratory. Those two things you can rigorously and properly hold us accountable for. We welcome you doing so, because that is rigorously scientific and the scientific method demands it of us. If we don't do those two things, then "you have us" firmly, and strong retractions would have to be made by us. In short, we will have rather resoundingly failed. However, I must confess that, with the MEG sitting comfortably in front of me with 6 watts input and 96 watts output in 110 volt lamps, measured with multiple types of instruments, I really don't have any fear of having to retract. Particularly since there are two such MEGs sitting there, both working quietly away without any moving parts. We built another successful one, and destroyed it in pushing it to see the rise in COP and its limits. Again, read my lips. Replication and independent testing is all you or any scientist have the right to demand of us. When we do those two things, we comply with the scientific method, and then we owe you nothing else at all. The rest is simply none of your business. My serious question to you is: Are you in favor of developing overunity EM systems that are open-loop and not closed loop, and produce COP>10.0, or are you totally against it as you seem to keep stating? If you're against it, say so and please get out of the "business" purportedly of being interested and being "for overunity EM systems" in general. Change your own advertisement to "interested only in the closed-loop subclass of that class of EM power systems known as overunity systems". Otherwise you become part of the overunity research problem rather than part of the solution. Right now, I have to say to you that you are coming on very strongly as part of the problem. It is interesting that Ken Shoulders, who has a working experiment regardless of whether you "prefer" it or not, and who is a lab person of great ability, and we five here at Magnetic Energy Limited, who also have a working experiment, should both continue to be harangued over and over by you for not doing things the way YOU wish them done. Particularly when you think that an open-loop COP = 10 system is not "genuine overunity" unless it is converted to self-powering as well as overunity. You apparently have no real knowledge in (judging by your own statements) and no real background in, overunity EM systems requirements, the required thermodynamics of such disequilibrium systems, the required electrodynamics of such systems, etc. Neither do your mysterious "overunity experts". I therefore am blocking further E- mail from you, as I have no time for useless debate which accomplishes nothing because it is not even scientific or scientifically based. You are certainly within your personal rights to PREFER closed-loop overunity systems. No problem with that. Bully for your preference; go build one yourself and quit demanding that we build one. That is not what we at Magnetic Energy Limited have advertised, so please just quit bothering us about it. We've got lots of open-loop overunity MEG research to do. Let me give you a final exercise. Just write down a rough estimate of, say, 50 million homes in North America, using, for instance, 30 KW per home. Now cut that "electrical line" power consumption to one tenth, and you are only using 150 million kilowatts instead of 1,500 million kilowatts. That is a reduction in power line requirement of 1,350 million kilowatts of power. Calculate the "worth" and "benefit" of that any way you wish, and that is what an open-loop COP = 10 overunity EM system is "worth" continuously in a single major application, in one area of the world. It will save a bundle to the hard-pressed energy consumers in North America. It reduces the need for lots of that oil, coal, natural gas, etc., thereby helping keep down the prices of those commodities and helping the consumers who do NOT have MEGs also. Look what it does for electric automobiles if it reduces the battery requirements to one tenth as much. It also eliminates a lot of hydrocarbon pollution that would otherwise be released. So you also get cleaner air to breath. By reducing the carbon emission, one even helps diminish global warming a bit. Now multiply those worth numbers or similar worth numbers by a substantial number of applications. You can see why we have a lot of open-loop overunity COP = 10 MEG work, scale-up, and development to do. Your personal "dislike" for the open-loop overunity MEG is "duly noted" and accepted. That is your prerogative. It's worth, however, is readily demonstrated and we ourselves like it fine. It works (which we will prove by independent government-certified testing and by independent impeccable replication, as is required). Meanwhile, we've got lots more research and development work to do at all speed, before we get open-loop MEGs of several sizes rolling off the assembly lines en masse. Tom Bearden -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:36 PM To: soliton bellsouth.net; vortex-L@Eskimo.com Subject: CORRECTION RE: Response from Tom Bearden Dear Mr. Bearden, Yesterday I wrote: >Batteries are already 95% efficient. There is no leeway to make a >"tremendous" improvement; you can only improve them by a few percent. If >you can make a battery work two or three times more "efficiently" than any >battery today, by definition you have created an over unity device which >can run forever. I meant to say "batteries and motors are already 95% efficient." I realize you are not working on a battery. I should have said: if you can make a "tremendous" improvement to an electric motor, more than 20%, then it stands to reason you can build two motors and have one power the other. (It may be necessary to store the output of one machine in a small set of batteries or capacitors temporarily, but the principle is the same.) All experts in motors that I have consulted over the years agree with me on this, and all commentators on Vortex agree now. You seem to be claiming that you have increased performance by a factor of 10, a 1000% improvement. Therefore, you should be able to make a machine or set of machines which can be disconnected from the power mains, running themselves indefinitely. If you cannot do this, then in my opinion and in the opinion of all experts I have consulted, your claims cannot be correct. I feel I should add a note of caution. If you not willing to perform the test I described, every scientist and engineer I know would consider your claims bogus, and they would be extremely suspicious about the company Magnetic Energy Limited, which is reportedly preparing an IPO of a product based on your technology. I have no knowledge of this company, no wish to interfere with your affairs, and I am not a lawyer, but I do want to say that I hope that you will perform this essential test before proceeding with any business plans. I wish you the best of luck with the test. Sincerely, - Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 06:16:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20731; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:16:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:16:04 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:16:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qKg3r.0.r35.ZkvBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >With regard to my proof, the logic is clear and the "facts"--i.e., the >details of the various experiments that supposedly contradict that >logic--are not clear. Result: my logic beats those "facts." You cannot know this a priori. The Mpemba effect might -- I stress *might* -- be a fundamental characteristic of water, built into the structure of H2O. (Yes, liquid water does have structure.) When the details of the experiment become clear, we might learn that this effect is built into the nature of matter at the most fundamental levels, and the gas content and other measurable differences between the samples is not controlling factor. It may be that the two samples can never be "equalized." If that is the case, your equations model the physics incorrectly. Logic can never reveal whether a model is correct or not. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 06:38:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28526; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:32:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:32:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2F9F58.6E50AF6A groupz.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:31:52 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Update to MEG at JLN labs....7Dec2k References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aCxJS2.0.Uz6.1-vBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Status report on bottom of page.... http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:03:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07273; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:02:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:02:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:10:03 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A2ED55B.A7B04E71 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Resent-Message-ID: <"iFsSu2.0.Vn1.-PwBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hamdi ucar wrote: > There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a device > appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on > experiments producing directly electrical output. Could you clarify a couple of things. The "key" word of your entire analysis may be in this first paragraph where you say "appearing" to be overunity. If a device is overunity from a purely electrical standpoint, isn't the generally acceptable initial determination of that fact to be found by driving an appropriately sized precision ohmic load (resistor that will not significantly overheat) while measuring the voltage drop across it? If so, then the question can then be framed a little more precisely. That questions is: Is there any potential OU device whose required input power characteristics are such that they cannot be approximated by the relevant electrical characteristic of the load resistor that you used initially to make the determination of OU? Did you have in mind a particular device where the required input power supply characteristics cannot be approximated by a resistive load? It would seem that once ANY load is isolated sufficiently by diodes to remove its reactive elements then you are almost home free. Although the circuit elements that will be required to make the pulses usable will be parasitic, I can't picture a situation where the overall losses would be fatally significant, say more than 20%. For the MEG for instance (assuming that it were even necessary in the original design to have so many turns in the output windings), I would suggest using a PCM cascade ( there are so many acronyms floating around in my head now that they often get confused but I think its called PCM). It is basically the reverse of the Marx circuit. I made two 10 stage cascades using hv diodes, mica caps and ferrite bead inductors so that the caps are charged in series and discharged in parallel. It is a fairly efficient way to get hv pulsed circuits down to low voltage filtered DC. Generally speaking, stepdown transformers don't work well in this application (sharp hv pulses) because of unavoidable arcing - not to mention the problems of reactivity. If two cascades are used in series you get ~100x reduction plus rectification with about 15% parasitic losses. Throw in a half-farad storage cap, a couple of relays and a few more goodies and you're set to go self-powered - that is IF your original device was indeed significantly OU. > Dont blame self-sustaing failures. Blame who dont tries calorimetry. I disagree strongly. Calorimetry is a waste of time if you already have significant electrical OU. If you are only 10-20% OU its very likely to be a measurement problem anyway. > Note: It would be possible to build a self sustaining device but in OPEN LOOP to avoid > interference by using cycling (manually) batteries between input and output. This could also be a big mistake because it opens up all kinds of avenues for fraud in that batteries take so long to discharge. Why not use caps instead? Bottom line: It is relatively easy to pull off - so much so that we can almost say with certainty that the MEG is not robustly OU and that the problem is to be found in measurement errors. Look closely at readings on Naudins page- no way can those be accurate. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:08:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09522; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:06:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:06:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001207084210.0384d660 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:03:03 -0600 To: "Tom Bearden" From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Another message from Bearden Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Hal Fox" , "Ken Shoulders" In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207085734.00bdafb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LZk9w3.0.hK2.JTwBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Tom, I got a copy of the recent message you sent to Jed Rothwell entitled "Third and final response". I feel that you are misinterpreting Jed's simple request. All of us in this "field" have been burned many times by measurement errors. No matter how many ways you devise to measure the power balance of a device, there will ALWAYS remain a finite possibility that your measurements are erroneous. However, closing the loop on an o-u device, and observing subsequently that it DOES operate continuously (by using a portion of its output power to supply its input requirements) provides an incontrovertible proof of the device's o-u behavior. You no longer need any scopes or voltmeters or measurement devices of any type. The closed-loop device proves itself by simply operating. In your message to Jed, you said: >However, I must confess that, with the MEG sitting comfortably in front >of me with 6 watts input and 96 watts output in 110 volt lamps, measured >with multiple types of instruments, I really don't have any fear of >having to retract. Power is power...i.e. it is a fungible commodity. Therefore there is no physical reason why some of that 96 watt output cannot be directed to the input terminals of your device. Regardless of the voltage and frequency of your 96 watt output, it should be a dirt-simple matter to convert 6.25% of it into the proper voltage and current required to power the input of your device. Please contact me if you need help in designing the necessary converter. Tom, you simply MUST try this! As things stand right now, everyone...including Jean-Louis Naudin...is still wondering if these impressive MEASUREMENTS can possibly be correct. Success in this simple test will instantly silence all concerns and win you the Noble prize. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:43:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18786; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:42:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:42:43 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102235.02ba2ec8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:27:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Another message from Bearden In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001207084210.0384d660 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207085734.00bdafb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Do2Sd2.0.Nb4.o_wBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Hello Tom, > >I got a copy of the recent message you sent to Jed Rothwell entitled >"Third and final response". > >I feel that you are misinterpreting Jed's simple request. All of us in >this "field" have been burned many times by measurement errors. No matter >how many ways you devise to measure the power balance of a device, there >will ALWAYS remain a finite possibility that your measurements are erroneous. > >However, closing the loop on an o-u device, and observing subsequently >that it DOES operate continuously (by using a portion of its output power >to supply its input requirements) . . . Thanks for writing this, Scott. I doubt it will do any good. If he responds -- if you can establish a channel of communication -- please try to make it clear to him that there is no need to have the output power go directly into the input. It might first be stored in capacitors or batteries, and stepped up or down in voltage. Some inventors, like Correa, claim that their devices cannot work without intermediate power storage. Bearden's device reportedly produces more than enough energy to make up for the losses in intermediate storage devices. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 07:44:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18890; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:42:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:42:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:39:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: <3A2ED55B.A7B04E71 pacbell.net> References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ixdwi1.0.1d4.w_wBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >I disagree strongly. Calorimetry is a waste of time if you already have >significant >electrical OU. If you are only 10-20% OU its very likely to be a >measurement problem anyway. There is an interesting footnote to this described by Chris Tinsley. Some top-quality power meters actually use a form of instantaneous calorimetry to measure integrated power (I * V). I do not recall the details, but I he said they use a brief sample pulse of electricity to heat a precisely engineered element, and then they measure the power based on the temperature the element reaches. The element is very small and it cools in a fraction of a second. This method is immune to the problems from spikes. It reminds me a of the flow meters which work by heating the inlet water with a brief pulse, and measuring the time it takes the wave of warm water to reach the outlet. These meters are remarkably precise, and they have no moving parts, or vanes or bearings that can clog. The power meter Tinsley described may be obsolete. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 08:37:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31898; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:34:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:34:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2@bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:34:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"LqCLk3.0.al7.ZmxBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>With regard to my proof, the logic is clear and the "facts"--i.e., the >>details of the various experiments that supposedly contradict that >>logic--are not clear. Result: my logic beats those "facts." > >You cannot know this a priori. The Mpemba effect might -- I stress *might* >-- be a fundamental characteristic of water, built into the structure of >H2O. (Yes, liquid water does have structure.) When the details of the >experiment become clear, we might learn that this effect is built into the >nature of matter at the most fundamental levels, and the gas content and >other measurable differences between the samples is not controlling factor. >It may be that the two samples can never be "equalized." If that is the >case, your equations model the physics incorrectly. Logic can never reveal >whether a model is correct or not. > >- Jed ***{If the samples cannot be equalized, then water is not one substance, but many. In that case, every investigation which has been conducted in the history of science that involved the comparison of a test cell to a control, where the cells contained water, is invalidated: any differences or lack thereof between the behavior of the experimental setup and the control could have been due to differences, or the lack thereof, in the "water." Bottom line: you have a choice between ripping the guts out of the structure of human knowledge, or simply admitting that you were wrong. I suggest that you do the latter. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 08:38:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31721; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:34:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:34:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1235915635==_ma============" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A2F9094.2D2C0F7C bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:07:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: No Ebola in Karachi Resent-Message-ID: <"z6xG8.0.Wl7.ZmxBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1235915635==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It wasn't even Karachi. > >Terry ***{The message in your subject line is good to hear, though I'm not sure what "It wasn't even Karachi" means. I assume the explanation was intended to be contained in the message from Ahmed Rashid, but as you can see below, the headers and routing information are all that came through with your post. Therefore, please elaborate. By what means did you determine that the original news item was false? --MJ}*** > > > <><><><><><><><><> >Received: from mail22.bellsouth.net (mail22.bellsouth.net [209.215.32.172]) > by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id XAA05251 > for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:54:49 -0500 (EST) >Received: from spine.brain.net.pk (IDENT:root spine.brain.net.pk >[203.128.3.18]) > by mail22.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id AAA21283 > for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:00:37 -0500 (EST) >Received: from brain.brain.net.pk (brain.brain.net.pk [203.128.7.10]) > by spine.brain.net.pk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29839 > for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:51:21 +0500 >Received: from oemcomputer (fiber9-15.brain.net.pk [203.128.9.15]) by >brain.brain.net.pk (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id JAA08205 for >; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:54:25 +0500 (PKT) >Message-ID: <00cc01c06009$50fe7740$0c0980cb oemcomputer> >From: "Ahmed Rashid" >To: >Subject: ahmed rashid >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:47:29 +0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C06032.B6F95A00" >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 >X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz --============_-1235915635==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: No Ebola in Karachi
It wasn't even Karachi.

Terry

***{The message in your subject line is good to hear, though I'm not sure what "It wasn't even Karachi" means. I assume the explanation was intended to be contained in the message from Ahmed Rashid, but as you can see below, the headers and routing information are all that came through with your post. Therefore, please elaborate. By what means did you determine that the original news item was false? --MJ}***



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________________
Quote of the month:

"Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz
--============_-1235915635==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 08:56:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04873; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:55:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207114214.02bbb240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 11:46:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A2ED55B.A7B04E71 pacbell.net> <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Bl3h63.0.wB1.o3yBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Footnote to footnote: I wrote: "they use a brief sample pulse of electricity to heat a precisely engineered element, and then they measure the power based on the temperature the element reaches." I think Tinsley said the element was 'a thermionic valve' and the temperature was measured with optical spectroscopy. Or, in plain American English: its a glowing radio tube and you tell how hot it is by the color. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 09:30:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12132; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:27:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:26:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Fwd: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"6laSW1.0.Tz2.zXyBw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since Jed Rothwell has now revealed himself to be a believer in polywater, a bit of science history appears to be in order: > POLYWATER AND THE ROLE OF SKEPTICISM > > The case of polywater demonstrates how the desire to believe in a new > phenomenon can sometimes overpower the > demand for solid, well-controlled evidence. In 1966 the Soviet scientist > Boris Valdimirovich Derjaguin lectured in > England on a new form of water that he claimed had been discovered by > another Soviet scientist, N. N. Fedyakin. > Formed by heating water and letting it condense in quartz capillaries, > this "anomalous water," as it was originally > called, had a density higher than normal water, a viscosity 15 times that > of normal water, a boiling point higher than > 100 degrees Centigrade, and a freezing point lower than zero degrees. > > Over the next several years, hundreds of papers appeared in the scientific > literature describing the properties of what > soon came to be known as polywater. Theorists developed models, supported > by some experimental measurements, in > which strong hydrogen bonds were causing water to polymerize. Some even > warned that if polywater escaped from the > laboratory, it could autocatalytically polymerize all of the world's water. > > Then the case for polywater began to crumble. Because polywater could only > be formed in minuscule capillaries, very > little was available for analysis. When small samples were analyzed, > polywater proved to be contaminated with a > variety of other substances, from silicon to phospholipids. Electron > microscopy revealed that polywater actually > consisted of finely divided particulate matter suspended in ordinary water. > > Gradually, the scientists who had described the properties of polywater > admitted that it did not exist. They had been > misled by poorly controlled experiments and problems with experimental > procedures. As the problems were resolved > and experiments gained better controls, evidence for the existence of > polywater disappeared. (See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/polywater.html.) ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 11:10:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12014; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a32f8f8.846621170 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:56:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Ebola in Karachi, Pakistan Resent-Message-ID: <"yF2tb1.0.Yx2.-rzBw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:33:41 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>***{Again, this is irrelevant: yellow fever sometimes causes bloody stools. >>The bleeding is internal, not external. Likewise for Dengue hemorrhagic >>fever. Also, these diseases are not caused by arenaviruses. --MJ}*** > >Umm, you're changing word meanings (again?). ***{No, I'm not changing the meanings of words, either for the first time or "again." I'm trying to clarify the logical requirements of the hypothesis I am putting forth, so that readers will be in a position to raise relevant objections rather than irrelevant ones. --MJ}*** Most hemorrhagic fevers >don't produce obvious external bleeding -- even Ebola -- except in a >few people. Almost all is internal bleeding. ***{My argument requires obvious external bleeding in significant numbers of cases, though not in most or all cases, in order to justify my contention that these conditions would have attracted the attention needed to quickly work their way into the medical literature. Since obvious external bleeding, to my knowledge, never occurs in yellow fever or in Dengue hemorrhagic fever, those examples are irrelevant to the hypothesis I am considering. While I am hardly an expert on this subject, it is to my knowledge only the arenavirus and filovirus families that contain species which meet this requirement. Oddly enough, it is also these families which contain members that are seemingly popping up of late, in the oddest sorts of places, all over the world. For an intriguing recent example, see http://www.multiscope.com/arenavirus.htm, where you will find: >Arenavirus Causes Three Deaths in California > >SANTA ANA, August 4 The death of a 30-year-old Orange >County woman is among three in California linked to an arenavirus >that had never before been acquired by humans in North America, >a health official said. The virus is spread through the urine or >droppings of mice, rats and other rodents. I have no idea whether, in the above case, there was obvious external bleeding. However, I am quite sure that there are several concrete examples of viruses that do have such effects in significant numbers of cases, and which were discovered only relatively recently. But if these viruses were capable of being transmitted to humans, and if humans were living in the same areas as the host animals for thousands of years, and if they cause spectacular symptoms in humans, and if medical science has had access to those areas for hundreds of years, how can it be that they are just now being noticed? To me, this simply does not compute. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >I'm out of the discussion. ***{That's too bad. What I'm trying to do here is explore the possibility that these viruses came from space, that's all. To do that, I have to clarify the reasoning which lends itself to that conclusion, until it either collapses, or becomes irrefutable. Without a critic to bounce ideas off of, that is hard to do. --MJ}*** > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 11:42:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16542; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:17:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:17:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:16:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: PBS Tesla - Master of Lightning - Airs Dec. 12, 2000 (FWD) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vRpGv3.0.G24.a8-Bw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: see below Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:24:04 -0500 From: "Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone" To: iri erols.com Subject: PBS Tesla - Master of Lightning - Airs Dec. 12, 2000 PBS: Tesla - Master of LightningWe are proud to help promote the PBS-TV airing of the life of AC electricity inventor, Nikola Tesla, Dec. 12-14, depending upon your local listing. Please note that many of Tesla's original articles are available, in their entirety, at the "Resources" link below or at http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_arts.html. Lastly, IRI has also offered www.pbs.org the fifty-page article, "Tesla's History in Western New York" I wrote for the electricity centennial. A FREE copy is also available to anyone responding to this email (mailed booklet or .pdf format)! We hope everyone will enjoy learning about the first scientist to promote free energy for the world. Sincerely, Tom Valone, President From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 13:27:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25176; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:22:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3A2FFB74.A24C63E0 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:04:52 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No Ebola in Karachi References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0XryE3.0.B96.C-_Bw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > It wasn't even Karachi. > > > > Terry > > ***{The message in your subject line is good to hear, though > I'm not sure what "It wasn't even Karachi" means. I assume the > explanation was intended to be contained in the message from > Ahmed Rashid, but as you can see below, the headers and routing > information are all that came through with your post. > Therefore, please elaborate. By what means did you determine > that the original news item was false? --MJ}*** I'm sorry. Mr. Rashid's reply was in HTML and I have my mailer set to send only plain text. Here is the text of his message: <><><><><><><><><><><> Subject: ahmed rashid Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:47:29 +0500 From: "Ahmed Rashid" To: Dear Terry Blanton, In reply to your email. The piece I wrote about Ebola for the Telegraph which you asked about was badly truncated. What was missing in the cutting of the article was the fact that it was an Ebola type virus that has hit, that 9 people died in Baluchistan in September and not Karachi. The main base for this story were reports in the Pakistani press and also a news release put out by IRIN, the UN information network based in Islamabad which quote the head of WHO in Pakistan, yours sincerely, ahmed rashid. Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia correspondent for the Daily Telegraph. <><><><><><><><><><><><> Interesting note is that his report on "ebola" might have gotten messed up the same way my forwarded message did. :) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 14:21:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01250; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:19:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:19:15 -0800 Message-ID: <00a401c0609c$60c19d40$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:23:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"3AkH02.0.SJ.Zp0Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > There is an interesting footnote to this described by Chris Tinsley. Some > top-quality power meters actually use a form of instantaneous calorimetry > to measure integrated power (I * V). - Many modern RF power meters work this way. An HP unit I purchased recently operates by balancing an electrical bridge circuit containing thermistors to compare the input RF power to the known DC power. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 14:53:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06756; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:47:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 14:47:52 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stirling engine Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:17:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207070827.02fb93c8 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207070827.02fb93c8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA06511 Resent-Message-ID: <"JJVnB3.0.Af1.2E1Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:13:42 -0600: >Gnorts, > >I just took delivery of the coolest physics toy to come along in quite some >time. It's a Stirling engine that will run off the heat of your hand....a >4 degree C delta-T to be exact. [snip] Hi Scott, How well does it run if placed in direct sunlight with the bottom plate resting in a basin of water? (And how much power does it develop?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 15:31:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13824; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A301C9E.893DD757 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 01:26:22 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <3A2ED55B.A7B04E71@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GFB1Z3.0.iN3.Up1Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > hamdi ucar wrote: > > > There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a device > > appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on > > experiments producing directly electrical output. > > Could you clarify a couple of things. The "key" word of your entire analysis may be in this > first paragraph where you say "appearing" to be overunity. Yes, I used the word "appearing", because it include both real excess energy production case and strange results caused phenomena affecting measurement devices, including current monitoring resistors and ohmic loads, thus giving incorrect (excess) figures. These cases could exist simultaneously making measurements very difficult. > If a device is overunity from a purely electrical standpoint, isn't the generally acceptable > initial determination of that fact to be found by driving an appropriately sized precision > ohmic load (resistor that will not significantly overheat) while measuring the voltage drop > across it? Not all the time. Even classically, metal films, carbon films and bulk carbon resistors have different behavior on signals having high frequency components (>100 MHz). We dont ever know behavior of resistors subjected to high amplitude transients (hf burs ts). We can not use electrical theory assumptions while dealing a quantum phenomena. I used the word quantum to point out the microscopic, atomic structural, subatomic particles properties of components are in effect. > > If so, then the question can then be framed a little more precisely. That questions is: > > Is there any potential OU device whose required input power characteristics are such that > they cannot be approximated by the relevant electrical characteristic of the load resistor > that you used initially to make the determination of OU? > Yes, I expanded this case on section A as (1,(2,(3. remaining in the context of the electrical theory. Assume, an unknown characteristic or an undetected signal present on the output signal which can disturb the OU operation when it is inserted to the input. If you dont aware of this disturbing component, it is hard to isolate/filter it. Also consider that excess (resulting OU) power signal may come in bursts or in chaotic fashion which can not be easily conditioned for closing the loop. In general, it is safe to consider the power generated from a device is (partially) dissipated as heat or emitted in electromagnetic form, inside the circuit. Then we try to extract this power out of circuit by attaching ohmic loads in some place where th e signal have suitable characteristics. Success is not guarantied. If we succeed this, now we can try measure this power. If measurement devices does not interfere with the circuit too bad, we can obtain some power figures. And if these figures exceed the input power, now we may consider an OU operation. But!! We still measure an ohmic dissipation inside the circuit, There is no guarantee to extend this dissipative load out of circuit, to convert the device as a black box having power input and output power terminals. > Did you have in mind a particular device where the required input power supply > characteristics cannot be approximated by a resistive load? Do you mean "input" or "output" ? > It would seem that once ANY load > is isolated sufficiently by diodes to remove its reactive elements then you are almost home > free. If you succeed to isolated the output power from the device and able to convert to DC, most of the problems would be solved. Even you dont need to close the loop for self-sustaining operation. Cycling batteries would be a safe method. > Although the circuit elements that will be required to make the pulses usable will be > parasitic, I can't picture a situation where the overall losses would be fatally significant, > say more than 20%. > > For the MEG for instance (assuming that it were even necessary in the original design to have > so many turns in the output windings), I would suggest using a PCM cascade ( there are so > many acronyms floating around in my head now that they often get confused but I think its > called PCM). It is basically the reverse of the Marx circuit. I made two 10 stage cascades > using hv diodes, mica caps and ferrite bead inductors so that the caps are charged in series > and discharged in parallel. It is a fairly efficient way to get hv pulsed circuits down to > low voltage filtered DC. Generally speaking, stepdown transformers don't work well in this > application (sharp hv pulses) because of unavoidable arcing - not to mention the problems of > reactivity. If two cascades are used in series you get ~100x reduction plus rectification > with about 15% parasitic losses. Throw in a half-farad storage cap, a couple of relays and a > few more goodies and you're set to go self-powered - that is IF your original device was > indeed significantly OU. > > > Dont blame self-sustaing failures. Blame who dont tries calorimetry. > > I disagree strongly. Calorimetry is a waste of time if you already have significant > electrical OU. If you are only 10-20% OU its very likely to be a measurement problem anyway. > Even a rude calorimetry gives you to check validity of electrical measurement. For example, binding a thermistor to the ohmic output load, put them in controlled thermal dissipative environment (a box or open air) and measure the thermistor resistance and compare this value with calibrated power figures gives you figures with < -+%20 sensitivity. calibration is simple, detach the output load and apply DC power incrementally to match the measure thermistor resistance. > > Note: It would be possible to build a self sustaining device but in OPEN LOOP to avoid > > interference by using cycling (manually) batteries between input and output. > > This could also be a big mistake because it opens up all kinds of avenues for fraud in that > batteries take so long to discharge. Why not use caps instead? My intention is get proof for the experimenter not for other parties. Yes mechanically switched capacitor would be practical, but you need an external power to switch them. > > Bottom line: It is relatively easy to pull off - so much so that we can almost say with > certainty that the MEG is not robustly OU and that the problem is to be found in measurement > errors. JNL's MEG work does not match my scientific criterion. See my postings on Freenrg list. Despite this unfortunate presentation, it is possible that MEG or similar device exhibit anomalous behavior. It would be too bad if a good design is discredited by poor experimentation. > > Look closely at readings on Naudins page- no way can those be accurate. No one take attention on the transients on output signals. If there is no disturbance in input signal to produce these transients, it definitely needs a closer look. > > Regards, > > Jones Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 16:20:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17995; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:17:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:57:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: <00a401c0609c$60c19d40$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"8ncm32.0.nO4.CY2Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: >Many modern RF power meters work this way. An HP unit I purchased >recently operates by balancing an electrical bridge circuit containing >thermistors to compare the input RF power to the known DC power. Can this possibly be affected by spikes? Can it "miss" some of the power because the spike is too quick? I do not see how. That would seem to be physically impossible -- which is the point of the design, I suppose. Meters which sample the power periodically can miss a brief fluctuation, but can this one? Of course a spike with less than the minimum detectable level of energy will not register, but it should not matter how long or short that spike is. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 16:22:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20336; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:42:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YhFgh3.0.gz4.xT2Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >> ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is easily > >> proven as follows: Something about your original message was seriously bugging me, and I just realized what it is. "if your mind is open and you wish to test 'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board." >From Vortex-L rule #2. I think the rules are not quite clear, so this needs some explanation. Years ago on SPF, many skeptics dismissed CF evidence on the grounds that it clearly violated well-tested theory. You cannot have fusion without high energy, and anyone who believed differently was stupid or insane. It was hard to hold conversations with others who took CF seriously because of the constant noise from those who bad-mouth the very idea of CF. A reasoned and thoughtful online community could never form there because of fear of emotional attacks from the arrogant ones who knew WITHOUT TESTING that CF was pure ignorance. The solution: start a group which excludes any "skepticism" which takes the form of evidence-bashing, or the elevation of known theory to the status of unquestionable "fact." Vortex-L is exclusive. It is intended to exclude people who bad-mouth "strange" evidence, who attack UNEXPECTED evidence, or who attempt to discredit evidence when it shows that they don't know as much as they though they did. Vortex-L is for those who seek out weird reports and subject them to experimental testing. It's for those who want to DAMAGE solid theories by finding the holes that lead to their replacement by something better. So Jed presented a possible anomaly regarding the freezing of water. You didn't just say "I don't believe it." That would be somewhat acceptable. You didn't try freezing some water and then report that nothing unusual occurred. Instead you bad-mouthed it, calling it bogus utter nonsense. Then you used theoretical arguments to "prove" that the evidence must be wrong, and that your hostile putdown of the anomaly was justified. These are actions which many people find no fault with, and which are common in many forums. In many forums the philosophy is "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", or "ridicule and discredit all strange ideas and the ones which survive this 'hazing' process must be real." But on vortex-L, these are the actions of The Enemy. We learn from our experience with the CF controversy. The playing field here is intentionally tilted to suppress these actions and to promote their opposite. Here we practice provisional acceptance of weird reports (in order to eliminate personal biases against them which would interfere with our investigating them.) Here we are so openminded that our brains frequently fall out. Those who don't like that sort of thing should stick to sci.physics and SPF. Note that the Mpemba Effect might be nothing more than a set of artifacts. That's not the issue. The issue is two things: 1. Bad mouthing an anomaly report (which tends to cause a hostile atmosphere and suppress later anomaly reports from others.) 2. Dismissing evidence because it clearly goes against theory. Maybe I should make the Vortex-L rules larger by specifically banning these? I thought that this part said enough: "If your mind is open and you wish to test 'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, then hop on board." Maybe I should have said the opposite too. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:04:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27318; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:57:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:57:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003401c060b3$59ff7420$ce78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "vortex-L" , , , , "jlnlabs" , "h2opower" , , "energy21" Subject: Virus Warning! Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:08:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C06089.6FCA7860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"R1N3A1.0.dg6.D83Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C06089.6FCA7860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, the natividad.exe virus was recently sent to the energy21 group = and the names of all of the groups this mail is going to were on the cc = of that infected mail. Sender was JOHNNY MCCULLEY and Lou DeBoterri. Do = NOT OPEN the attachments on these emails! MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C06089.6FCA7860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All, the natividad.exe virus was = recently sent=20 to the energy21 group and the names of all of the groups this mail is = going to=20 were on the cc of that infected mail. Sender was JOHNNY MCCULLEY and Lou = DeBoterri. Do NOT OPEN the attachments on these emails!
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------
Click = here for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C06089.6FCA7860-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:07:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27900; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Wear your aluminum! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a91en.0.hp6.zB3Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a conspiracy/militia site with EXTREMELY IMPORTANT info about mind control devices! :) http://sonoguy.tripod.com/remote.html They also rag on other typical topics: http://sonoguy.tripod.com/holdup.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/contrail.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/gritz.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/ I almost damaged myself trying to keep from laughing while I was supposed to be writing code at work. Is this stuff really that funny, or was I just in a weird mood? :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:08:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26675; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:05:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:05:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:11:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Mitchell Jones cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PiMWT2.0.WW6.eF3Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, For many years after the "debunking" of polywater there were various investigators, for a wide cross section of the scientific community who would, on a regular or sporadic timetable, work to try to find... or not find ... the Polywater. The actual finding of poly water may have revolutionary application with steam engines and a "new aqueous chemistry" being some of the goals and possible prizes. One of the best explanations of what was seen, in my opinion, is the brief description following: a] Very pure water was used and capillary tubes, in single or in bundles. Capillary tubes are often used to pick up and transfer a few micro liters of fluid, often water, blood, plasma... not the 4th state of matter plasma, but one of the liquid separations from blood. The usual capillary tube is about 4 inches long. Take a piece of 8 1/2 by 11 inch typing paper, or A-4 paper and fold in half the long way and this is the general length. The tubes are almost always of a glass or silica based materials such as boro silicate, soft glasses. Not often, but sometimes, the tube is treated with a coating. either inside or outside or both. b] If a tube or bundle of tubes is in proximity with water, especially very clean water, there is solution of silica, or silicon dioxide or other forms of silicon. Sols of silicon and silicon compounds, especially oxidescan and do form gels. C) POLY WATER may well have been sol-gel(s) of silicon. John Schnurer On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Since Jed Rothwell has now revealed himself to be a believer in polywater, > a bit of science history appears to be in order: > > > POLYWATER AND THE ROLE OF SKEPTICISM > > > > The case of polywater demonstrates how the desire to believe in a new > > phenomenon can sometimes overpower the > > demand for solid, well-controlled evidence. In 1966 the Soviet scientist > > Boris Valdimirovich Derjaguin lectured in > > England on a new form of water that he claimed had been discovered by > > another Soviet scientist, N. N. Fedyakin. > > Formed by heating water and letting it condense in quartz capillaries, > > this "anomalous water," as it was originally > > called, had a density higher than normal water, a viscosity 15 times that > > of normal water, a boiling point higher than > > 100 degrees Centigrade, and a freezing point lower than zero degrees. > > > > Over the next several years, hundreds of papers appeared in the scientific > > literature describing the properties of what > > soon came to be known as polywater. Theorists developed models, supported > > by some experimental measurements, in > > which strong hydrogen bonds were causing water to polymerize. Some even > > warned that if polywater escaped from the > > laboratory, it could autocatalytically polymerize all of the world's water. > > > > Then the case for polywater began to crumble. Because polywater could only > > be formed in minuscule capillaries, very > > little was available for analysis. When small samples were analyzed, > > polywater proved to be contaminated with a > > variety of other substances, from silicon to phospholipids. Electron > > microscopy revealed that polywater actually > > consisted of finely divided particulate matter suspended in ordinary water. > > > > Gradually, the scientists who had described the properties of polywater > > admitted that it did not exist. They had been > > misled by poorly controlled experiments and problems with experimental > > procedures. As the problems were resolved > > and experiments gained better controls, evidence for the existence of > > polywater disappeared. (See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/polywater.html.) > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:37:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04663; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:35:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:35:43 -0800 Message-ID: <024801c060ad$e9a53160$6179add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: Subject: Re: Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, Newman Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:29:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"C8goT.0.k81.jh3Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the answer is no. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:26 PM Subject: Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, Newman > Of Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, or Newman, does anyone know if any of these > individuals has ever patented or designed a product of any kind that has > been successfully marketed? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:42:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06307; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:41:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:41:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:45:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: jlnlabs egroups.com, Vortex Subject: Newman motor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dJfgG.0.OY1.tm3Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Does anyone have a Newman motor they would like to let a couple of my associates play with for a while? Reply off line if you wish. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:42:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27900; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Wear your aluminum! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a91en.0.hp6.zB3Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a conspiracy/militia site with EXTREMELY IMPORTANT info about mind control devices! :) http://sonoguy.tripod.com/remote.html They also rag on other typical topics: http://sonoguy.tripod.com/holdup.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/contrail.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/gritz.html http://members.tripod.com/sonoguy/ I almost damaged myself trying to keep from laughing while I was supposed to be writing code at work. Is this stuff really that funny, or was I just in a weird mood? :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 17:54:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08117; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:52:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:52:02 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c060bb$08270660$807aadd1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: Subject: Re: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:03:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"fbhDT2.0.i-1.1x3Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Any knowledge of Oxy-water? It is a term from Faraday's time and comes up in his writings. It is supposed to be oxygen enriched water but both oxygen (not air) and hydrogen are insoluble in water so I was wondering about oxy-water. It is created (according to Faraday) as a by-product of certain electrolysis operations. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Mitchell Jones" Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 8:11 PM Subject: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking > > > Dear Folks, > > For many years after the "debunking" of polywater there were > various investigators, for a wide cross section of the scientific > community who would, on a regular or sporadic timetable, work to try to > find... or not find ... the Polywater. > > The actual finding of poly water may have revolutionary > application with steam engines and a "new aqueous chemistry" being some of > the goals and possible prizes. > > > One of the best explanations of what was seen, in my opinion, is > the brief description following: > > a] Very pure water was used and capillary tubes, in single or > in bundles. Capillary tubes are often used to pick up and transfer a few > micro liters of fluid, often water, blood, plasma... not the 4th state of > matter plasma, but one of the liquid separations from blood. > The usual capillary tube is about 4 inches long. Take a piece of > 8 1/2 by 11 inch typing paper, or A-4 paper and fold in half the long way > and this is the general length. > The tubes are almost always of a glass or silica based materials > such as boro silicate, soft glasses. Not often, but sometimes, the tube > is treated with a coating. either inside or outside or both. > > b] If a tube or bundle of tubes is in proximity with water, > especially very clean water, there is solution of silica, or silicon > dioxide or other forms of silicon. > Sols of silicon and silicon compounds, especially oxidescan and do > form gels. > > C) POLY WATER may well have been sol-gel(s) of silicon. > > > John Schnurer > > > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > Since Jed Rothwell has now revealed himself to be a believer in polywater, > > a bit of science history appears to be in order: > > > > > POLYWATER AND THE ROLE OF SKEPTICISM > > > > > > The case of polywater demonstrates how the desire to believe in a new > > > phenomenon can sometimes overpower the > > > demand for solid, well-controlled evidence. In 1966 the Soviet scientist > > > Boris Valdimirovich Derjaguin lectured in > > > England on a new form of water that he claimed had been discovered by > > > another Soviet scientist, N. N. Fedyakin. > > > Formed by heating water and letting it condense in quartz capillaries, > > > this "anomalous water," as it was originally > > > called, had a density higher than normal water, a viscosity 15 times that > > > of normal water, a boiling point higher than > > > 100 degrees Centigrade, and a freezing point lower than zero degrees. > > > > > > Over the next several years, hundreds of papers appeared in the scientific > > > literature describing the properties of what > > > soon came to be known as polywater. Theorists developed models, supported > > > by some experimental measurements, in > > > which strong hydrogen bonds were causing water to polymerize. Some even > > > warned that if polywater escaped from the > > > laboratory, it could autocatalytically polymerize all of the world's water. > > > > > > Then the case for polywater began to crumble. Because polywater could only > > > be formed in minuscule capillaries, very > > > little was available for analysis. When small samples were analyzed, > > > polywater proved to be contaminated with a > > > variety of other substances, from silicon to phospholipids. Electron > > > microscopy revealed that polywater actually > > > consisted of finely divided particulate matter suspended in ordinary water. > > > > > > Gradually, the scientists who had described the properties of polywater > > > admitted that it did not exist. They had been > > > misled by poorly controlled experiments and problems with experimental > > > procedures. As the problems were resolved > > > and experiments gained better controls, evidence for the existence of > > > polywater disappeared. (See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/polywater.html.) > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 18:18:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11004; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:01:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:01:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003301c060bc$5804c680$807aadd1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Chemtrails? Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:12:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C06092.6DB45380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"qO93u1.0.jh2.044Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C06092.6DB45380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Thia is really off topic and has no real basis in any solid = scientific area but what the hell? At any rate are we familliar with = "Chemtrails"? Ok, well I was thinking about something and it all tied = together in this little fantasy of mine. Some time ago I saw a picture on NASA's website which was taken with = an x-ray camera on a satellite. It showed a cloud of free hydrogen = surrounding the earth. Hmmm, I thought, strange. Then, in a totally unrelated thought I realized that acid rain has a = lot of nitric acid in it. Nitric acid is a good electrolyte. I thought, = oh cool, we're electrolyzing the atmosphere. I let that go though as = there are no electrodes. Then I saw that barium or barium titinate were being "found" in = chemtrail leavings. Hmmmm again, barium reacts with light, like in a = solar cell. So we already have the electrolyte in the atmosphere, now = were adding the electrodes (titanium being the other). Wjy would anyone be tryiong to electrolyze the atmosphere? Beats me. One other thing, they say over 50% of the arctic ice cap has melted. = Where did it go? The rise in the world sea level certainly isn't = proportonate to the melting of that amount of ice. Maybe it's up in = space. Just a wacky thought. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C06092.6DB45380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
   Thia is really off topic = and has no=20 real basis in any solid scientific area but what the hell? At any rate = are we=20 familliar with "Chemtrails"? Ok, well I was thinking about something and = it all=20 tied together in this little fantasy of mine.
   Some time ago I saw a = picture on=20 NASA's website which was taken with an x-ray camera on a satellite. It = showed a=20 cloud of free hydrogen surrounding the earth. Hmmm, I thought,=20 strange.
    Then, in a totally = unrelated=20 thought I realized that acid rain has a lot of nitric acid in it. Nitric = acid is=20 a good electrolyte. I thought, oh cool, we're electrolyzing the = atmosphere. I=20 let that go though as there are no electrodes.
   Then I saw that barium or = barium=20 titinate were being "found" in chemtrail leavings. Hmmmm again, barium = reacts=20 with light, like in a solar cell. So we already have the electrolyte in = the=20 atmosphere, now were adding the electrodes (titanium being the=20 other).
   Wjy would anyone be = tryiong to=20 electrolyze the atmosphere? Beats me.
   One other thing, they say = over 50% of=20 the arctic ice cap has melted. Where did it go? The rise in the world = sea level=20 certainly isn't proportonate to the melting of that amount of ice. Maybe = it's up=20 in space.
   Just a wacky = thought.
MJ
-----------------------------------------------------
Click = here for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C06092.6DB45380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 18:19:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14221; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:15:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:15:58 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [4.4.182.168] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: World Educational Rankings Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 20:15:19 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 02:15:19.0852 (UTC) FILETIME=[B682D6C0:01C060BC] Resent-Message-ID: <"rylu92.0.5U3.SH4Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standardized testing is notorously faulty. BTW I know from personal experience at College in the Engineering dept. of KSU that certain cultural groups (asian, indian, etc.) do much better on direct math problems and theory, they also do far worse on problems of application (story problems, real-world situations, etc.) Merlyn >From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: World Educational Rankings >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:21:18 -0500 > >Ahoy! > >I think it was Tom Malloy who earlier this year asked me where I got my >outrageous claims to the effect that the US lagged behind most industrial >nations with regard to basic education. I was too busy at the time to >chase >the source down, and just let the subject drop. The rank that I had read >earlier for the US was 7th place, but now it seems that we have slipped to >13th place. Over 9000 US students were randomly selected to participate in >the study, so it was not exactly a small sample, either. Here is a more >recent story on the subject > >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mathandscience001205.html > >Reed it and weap! > >Knuke > > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 18:42:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19970; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:40:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:40:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:20:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Oxy water....Re: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking In-Reply-To: <001401c060bb$08270660$807aadd1 mikejohnston> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uI2jY1.0.yt4.de4Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear M Johnson.... and Vo.,n Hi John, Any knowledge of Oxy-water? It is a term from Faraday's time and comes up in his writings. It is supposed to be oxygen enriched water but both oxygen (not air) and hydrogen are insoluble in water so I was wondering about oxy-water. It is created (according to Faraday) as a by-product of certain electrolysis operations. MJ There are some supposed 'vitamin' or 'dietary supplement' preparations which "give you oxygen" if you consume them in oral form... is this what you mean? If not, then give me a context where you read of this 'oxy-water', please. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 19:05:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28185; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:05:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:05:04 -0800 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 21:05:36 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Stirling engine In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207205538.0301d540 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207070827.02fb93c8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001207070827.02fb93c8 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"pDj9e2.0.Gu6.V_4Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:17 AM 12/8/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >How well does it run if placed in direct sunlight with the bottom plate >resting in a basin of water? >(And how much power does it develop?) I'm sure it will run under those conditions and probably pretty fast. Of course it runs in the opposite direction when the top plate is warmer than the bottom plate. As for the power output, it would require a very delicate dynamometer to measure. It's probably safe to guess that the engine will achieve 25-50% of Carnot efficiency, which will be rather small at these low delta-T's. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 19:47:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03533; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:23:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:23:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 21:18:28 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Bearden's reply to me X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207211318.03036628 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zRYDC1.0.2t.VG5Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bearden replied to my efforts to get him to try Jed's suggestion of closing the loop on his MEG device. I don't understand why he goes on like he does but at least he finally admits that they're trying to close the loop: Scott, No need to take up the same close-looping cudgel, it's the same dead horse you're beating once again. I did not "misinterpret" Jed on anything and his request was not "simple"; he said it right in his E-mail. He also made substantive errors revealing a lack of knowledge in the necessary thermodynamics of open dissipative systems, etc. as well as not understanding the difference between efficiency and COP. He hasn't got the foggiest notion of the difference between a curl-free A-potential and a curled A-potential, or what happens when you separate the two and still retain both of them as well. He ASSUMED lots of folks were "expert in o/u systems". You've just repeated "you have to close-loop it" again if it's to be considered "genuine". No change. You just used more polite language, but here you are equating "believable o/u" with automatic ability to easily close loop. That is a false premise. Now OF COURSE close-looping it into a type 4 open dissipative system is instant proof! Nobody ever said it wasn't, and I fully agree with that. I also point out that a type 3 system is just as genuine, but has to be measured rigorously. So where is the problem with that?? It's our own business if we wish to build a type-3 system. It's your business if you wish to only consider type 4 systems, so you have to have no expertise at all in negentropic systems because someone else already did the hard work. That's fine! What is NOT fine is the insistence that ONLY type 4 systems are o'u genuinely. That's foolishness and a non sequitur, of first rank, RIGOROUSLY BY THE THEORY OF OPEN DISSIPATIVE SYSTEMS. Simply study the literature. But you have to "work" a bit for type 3 systems. If you prefer close-loop type 4 systems, hey, that is wonderful. Go build yourself one. Let all the other "experts" go find one, or find a type 3 and try to make it into a type 4. I wish you well and every success. But please do not keep coming onto me suggesting that the MEG is not genuine, or can't be tested accurately, UNLESS it is close-looped, at which point no measurement is needed. See the non sequitur? Measurement is not accurate until there is no measurement needed. If you still believe the false thesis that only a closed-loop o'u system is to be considered genuine, and that you can just throw out the other type 3 o'u system from open dissipative systems, we really have nothing further to discuss. We have not advertised a closed-loop overunity MEG. We have advertised an open-loop overunity MEG. We will not discuss a possible closed-loop MEG, what we may or may not have done on that subject, etc. We're working on it! Where we are on it is proprietary information. What has to be done is proprietary information. Thanks for the offer of help, which I realize is sincere. I probably have a bench guy as good as you anyway, his speciality is phase-locked circuits, in everything from power systems to laser systems. He's good. We do not need "help", but appreciate your willingness. If you and others are intent on pursuing close-looped systems only, that is your personal prerogative and I applaud you and wish you well in your endeavors. All I'll say is we've done extensive work on it. Stay tuned. Very best wishes, Tom Bearden Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 19:52:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29677; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 21:40:52 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jlnlabs egroups.com" CC: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" , "vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: MEG Info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0sKuN1.0.CF7.8Y5Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To All, This information is to all those presently involved in or thinking about an attempted MEG replication. I'm expressing opinions that I've come to from the results I've obtained after spending many lab hours with many variations in topology and circuitry. In no way am I de-potentializing the MEG (pun intended) but simply trying to share what I've learned about the device for the good of the whole! IMHO, it is a waste of time to attempt power measurements of the MEG standard load resistors (that is, any linear resistive device) if one expects to see any excess energy. The output loads must be resistive (non-reactive) and nonlinear. The resistance must decrease with increasing voltage and the power must be calculated from the output voltage and current. Those of you powering up your MEG for the first time with pure resistive loads, will find the waveforms do not match Bearden's nor JLN's! Only with nonlinear loads and a properly "tuned" MEG will you see the near half sine current waveform in your primary coils. With nonlinear loads and a properly setup MEG, you will measure COP's >1 with the proper measurement tools and techniques. In general, the MEG seems to like voltage build up in the secondary windings before supplying current to the load! If so, this would seem to align with Tom Bearden's public disclose of this device! The problem now lies in the utilization of this excess power to do some useful work. It would appear to me that the MEG can be run with lower secondary voltages and properly designed loads and still yield COP's >1. In fact, this should be a focal point for anyone doing this project. Suggestions- 1) A common nonlinear load device to try would be various voltage rated MOV's or transient absorbers. I used Panasonic ZNR10K621U's for COP's ranging from 1.75 to 5 depending on coil turns and supply voltage. Ask JLN how he "conditioned" his carbon load resistor as I don't know. 2) Use a higher spec'd device for Vds than the BUZ11. With only a 50 v rating for Vds, this device avalanches on the primary turn off flyback phase and results in abnormal heating. Use a device with a Vds >200 volts and an Id >4 amps. 3) The power supply can also be a constant current source and will actually provide some measure of safety if disaster strikes in the switching circuitry! 4) I can't stress strongly enough the safety issues regarding the high output voltages one will encounter on the secondaries! USE CAUTION! Be sure your measurement devices connected to any portion of the secondaries are capable of withstanding the voltages you will encounter. 5) NEVER POWER UP A MEG WITHOUT LOADS CONNECTED AS THE OPEN CIRCUIT VOLTAGES CAN BE LETHAL AND DESTRUCTIVE! I can now understand why the MEG presents certain problems in achieving a self-running state and it may not be necessary as Tom Bearden has recently tried to point out! If anyone should experience valid COP's >1 with standard linear loads, please speak out! Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 20:02:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09618; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:44:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:44:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3A30842B.65DB bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 22:48:11 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zliry1.0.AM2.Oa5Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > George Holz wrote: > > >Many modern RF power meters work this way. An HP unit I purchased > >recently operates by balancing an electrical bridge circuit containing > >thermistors to compare the input RF power to the known DC power. > > Can this possibly be affected by spikes? All systems are bandwidth limited, ie they do not pass all frequencies. A spike is a bandwidth limited impulse. An impulse has infinite bandwidth and is used (mathematically, since infinite bandwidth signals do not exist) to test the frequency response of a system. The more narrow a spike in time (duration), the higher its frequency components and, consequently, the more energy likely to be outside the passband of the measuring device. The result is errors in power measurement. You must know the frequency range of your signal to ensure you have selected the proper measurement instruments. Signal repitition rates are simply one component of frequency and are usually far below the frequency components in the spike. In other words, spike repitition frequencies are usually well within the passband of the measuring device. The simple answer to your question is "yes". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 20:03:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09671; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:44:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:44:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3A308620.33B bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 22:56:32 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chemtrails? References: <003301c060bc$5804c680$807aadd1 mikejohnston> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uAkga2.0.1N2.Ta5Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Johnston wrote: I don't know anything about chemtrails; so, I have snipped it. > One other thing, they say over 50% of the arctic ice cap has > melted. Where did it go? The rise in the world sea level certainly > isn't proportonate to the melting of that amount of ice. Maybe it's up > in space. Melting of the Artic ice will cause no increase in ocean levels because that ice was floating. It was not connected to land like in the Antartic. Your cocktail glass will not overflow when the ice melts even if filled to the brim. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 20:41:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27345; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:37:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:37:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3A30654B.40EA suite224.net> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 23:36:28 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Liquid ozone for John Schnurer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H6-O13.0.8h6.cM6Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: (snip) > If not, then give me a context where you read of this 'oxy-water', > please. John, this is not really responsive to your post, but this topic made me think of a neat old bottle I found while digging up an old trash pile on my farm. I guess the bottle was discarded by a previous owner about 1900 plus or minus a decade or two? Anyway, the old bottle is about 6 oz. I guess, and brown - probably to prevent photo-dissociation of its contents! The following label is embossed in the glass: LIQUOZONE MANUFACTURED ONLY BY THE LIQUID OZONE CO. CHICAGO, U.S.A. If NASA could find this lost secret technology for holding liquid ozone in a brown glass bottle, think of what this would mean for their H2-O2 rocket development! A swig of ozone from this little bottle has to qualify as some kind of dietary supplement (that's gotta hurt!). :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 20:41:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10790; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:40:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:40:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3065F9.20B52423 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 23:39:21 -0500 From: Stephen Lawrence X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QKmBP3.0.Oe2.RO6Cw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty writes: > > >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > >> ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and > > >> this is easily proven as follows: > > Something about your original message was seriously bugging me, and > I just realized what it is. "if your mind is open and you wish to > test 'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them > away, hop on board." Aside from generally agreeing with WB's observation, I also have to put my two cents in regarding Mitch's attack. The original claim, if I understood it, was that there are circumstances under which hot water freezes sooner than cool water with similar external conditions. Well, all Mitch did, really, is demonstrate that there are _also_ circumstances under which cool water freezes sooner than hot water with similar external circumstances. Frankly, I think that was pretty obvious to start with -- and it has no bearing whatsoever on the existence of the Mpemba Effect. As (I hope) we all know you can't disprove an "existence" claim with a counter example. A single counter example only disproves a claim of universality. And asserting that a counter example disproves something doesn't make it so, of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 20:49:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA29324; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:48:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:48:10 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:55:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Liquid ozone for John Schnurer Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"0FjvO2.0.2A7.9W6Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:36 PM 12/7/0, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >John Schnurer wrote: >(snip) >> If not, then give me a context where you read of this 'oxy-water', >> please. > >John, this is not really responsive to your post, but this topic made >me think of a neat old bottle I found while digging up an old trash >pile on my farm. >I guess the bottle was discarded by a previous owner about 1900 plus >or minus a decade or two? >Anyway, the old bottle is about 6 oz. I guess, and brown - probably >to prevent photo-dissociation of its contents! > >The following label is embossed in the glass: > > LIQUOZONE > > MANUFACTURED ONLY BY > THE LIQUID OZONE CO. > > CHICAGO, U.S.A. > I have a feeling that both of you are talking about hydrogen peroxide. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 21:12:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA06250; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:11:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3A306A62.4D9DA5C8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 06:58:10 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0@pop.mindspring.com> <3A30842B.65DB@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R06IB2.0.ZX1.Hs6Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My short answer is anything not tested may not work. If one deal with with radially different strange signals, no method is safe. Avoid assumptions as possible. Beside of bandwidth limits, higher the frequency, difficult to manage, more wires around, more the trouble. Reliability become costlier with rising frequency. Maybe preferable method would be keeping things simple as possible, and not look for much of precision. Regards, hamdi Terry Blanton wrote: > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > George Holz wrote: > > [snip] > > The simple answer to your question is "yes". > > Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 23:16:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA07611; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:15:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:15:18 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:47:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Resent-Message-ID: <"BPJe01.0.rs1.6g8Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:57 PM 12/7/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >George Holz wrote: > >>Many modern RF power meters work this way. An HP unit I purchased >>recently operates by balancing an electrical bridge circuit containing >>thermistors to compare the input RF power to the known DC power. > >Can this possibly be affected by spikes? Can it "miss" some of the power >because the spike is too quick? I do not see how. That would seem to be >physically impossible -- which is the point of the design, I suppose. Yes, spikes can mostly pass right past a load resistor, if they are fast enough, due to the skin effect. As the frequency goes up more and more of the energy of the pulse is carried not in the conductor (or resistor) but in the space around the conductor. That fraction of energy not carried in the resistor can heat the air, etc., around the resistor to some extent, but the effective resistance will change with frequency, and thus the power drawn off in the form of heat will change with frequency. I would expect the HP unit to be comparing rectified and smoothed AC to DC, not RF to DC directly. Even then, sporadic pulses outside the designed frequency range would be expected to not effectively heat the power measurement resistor. Pulses that pass by load resistors have a way of "coming back" in the form of a resonant oscillation. This can set up an artificially high current measurement too. Attempts to measure phase angle are then sometimes thwarted because the phase angle varies throughout each cycle, there being no single phase angle. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 7 23:30:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11454; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:29:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:29:33 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 07:26:32 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a338d06.950074605 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001401c060bb$08270660$807aadd1@mikejohnston> In-Reply-To: <001401c060bb$08270660$807aadd1 mikejohnston> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA11433 Resent-Message-ID: <"VxGdZ.0.uo2.St8Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael, On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:03:15 -0500, "Michael Johnston" wrote: > Any knowledge of Oxy-water? > It is a term from Faraday's time and comes up in his writings. It is >supposed to be oxygen enriched water but both oxygen (not air) and hydrogen >are insoluble in water so I was wondering about oxy-water. It is created >(according to Faraday) as a by-product of certain electrolysis operations. Was Faraday referring to hydrogen peroxide? -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 00:29:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26323; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 00:28:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 00:28:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001206114206.03a6daa0 earthtech.org> References: <3A2E5F3F.AE50765D pacbell.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001206114206.03a6daa0 earthtech.org> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 02:27:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xW0xf3.0.4R6.Vk9Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott Little wrote; > >In spite of all this negative evidence, I would jump on the EV >bandwagon instantly if somebody would just show me an experiment >that PROVED their existence. I have spent some time considering >such an experiment and have not come up with anything workable yet. > >Any ideas out there? > I understood that when you energize the needle shaped electrode, described in KS's patents in the appropriate atmosphere you get a steady stream on donut shaped plasma vortexed shooting at the target. Are you telling me that this is not so? I understood that this was a straight forward process. I also understood that the metal used to seed the EV's which is injected in the area between the end of the needle electrode and the sheath was sucked into the EV's . In KS's paper on the website, I understood him to say that when the metal in the melted area on the target is analyzed, it has an odd isotopic ratio indicating fusion events. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 05:28:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26134; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 05:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 05:27:59 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <024801c060ad$e9a53160$6179add1 mikejohnston> References: Conversation with last message <024801c060ad$e9a53160$6179add1@mikejohnston> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Mike Connolly" Subject: Re: Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, Newman Patents Date: (No, or invalid, date.) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0bO_g2.0.GO6.V7ECw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: actually, Newman i believe, DID patent the plastic-coated barbell/dumbell weights STILL in common use today Mike Connolly Storage Tank Technical Sales Manager GRAIN SYSTEMS DIVISION THE GSI GROUP, INC. P.O. BOX 20 1004 East Illinois Street Assumption, IL USA 62510-0020 U.S. & CANADA TOLL-FREE PH: 888-474-2467 ext-5290 WORLDWIDE DIRECT PH: 217-226-5290 U.S. & CANADA FAX: 800-800-5329 WORLDWIDE FAX: 217-226-4420 E-MAIL: mconnolly grainsystems.com ---------- > the answer is no. > MJ > ----------------------------------------------------- > Click here for Free Video!! > http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Horace Heffner" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:26 PM > Subject: Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, Newman > > > > Of Bearden, Shoulders, Mills, or Newman, does anyone know if any of these > > individuals has ever patented or designed a product of any kind that has > > been successfully marketed? > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 07:41:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22268; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:38:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:38:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208101730.00bda418 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:38:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me - Instrument free designs In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207211318.03036628 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UTxHP2.0.sR5.52GCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little quotes Bearden: >See the non sequitur? Measurement is not accurate until there is no >measurement needed. I think this is intended to be sarcastic, but anyway, it is the first sensible thing Bearden has said, and I fully agree. "No measurement needed" is the ideal measurement technique. I cannot understand Bearden. I cannot even understand his ordinary English, when he is not talking about his theories. I sense he thinks a "no measurement" system is unscientific, or it is for wimps, or it is a cop-out. Some CF scientists feel this way. Anyway, that's wrong. It is the most convincing and scientific method of demonstrating a phenomenon. Instrument-free demonstrations of physical principles were more popular in the 19th century than the 20th. Also, instrument-free or what you might call human-control-free, first-principle engineering was more common, and it was a heck of a lot better. A classic example of this distinction can be seen in fission reactor design. Conventional designs rely upon instruments and computers to detect a malfunction and shut down in an emergency, or "engineered safety." In the 1950s, Teller designed reactors with "inherent safety," meaning "its safety must be guaranteed by the laws of nature and not merely by the details of its engineering" - F. Dyson. General Atomics built prototype reactors with half the moderating hydrogen in the fuel rods. In actual demonstrations, when the reactors were deliberately put in uncontrolled runaway conditions, they shut down in milliseconds, much faster than any engineered design could ever achieve. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 07:59:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06391; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:55:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:55:19 -0800 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 07:47:46 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: MEG Info To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3102A2.679967E6 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"esgFg3.0.nZ1.dHGCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jon Flickinger wrote: > I can now understand why the MEG presents certain problems in achieving a > self-running state and it may not be necessary as Tom Bearden has recently tried > to point out! With all due respect, John, isn't this statement a total cop-out (or should I say COP-out)? If you really believe what you just wrote - Please explain very specifically why the MEG with COP=5 (or 10, or whatever is the current delusion-de-jour) cannot be operated in a self-powered mode? Please try to do this without impugning my inability to understand the fineries of open-system, closed system or whatever. If it is true, surely it can be explained precisely by someone out there- and it looks like you have been trying to replicate this work? Are you also getting these readings? If the energy is being transmitted from ZPE or from the "vacuum," as Robin seems to be asserting, then how is it being manifested? Does the MEG heat up? cool Down? Is this also a thermodynamic question or is the COP based on only electromagnetic factors?. Most of all - if it's not just electrical energy, then how can you know it's there?? Look at this MEG episode in the perspective of recent history: 1.) Joe Newman has been making almost these same bogus claims for many years 2.) In the early days, one Newman's biggest supporter was Bearden 3.) Newman has biked investors for big $$. 4.) Bearden goes public with his claims and IMMEDIATELY, even before the claims can be verified, we learn that he already has stock ready to sell!! 5.) Oh almost forgot. When Newman was finally pressed by his gullible investors to produce a self-running motor, he and many others tried to do it for many months - and when it wouldn't work, he had the unmitigated audacity to claim that there were really TWO kinds of electricity in the universe - and that since his motor produced only the second kind, this wasn't a fair test !! I'm not making this up - it's a matter of historical record. Do we want to see history repeat itself? I apologize if it appears that I'm trying to pick on you - or on anyone else but these are truly MOMENTOUS claims. And if nobody questions them at this level, do you think that the casual investor will flinch when Bearden tries to go national. How will that then reflect on us, when he is proven to be a con man, or at best in total denial of what COP > 1 means. He should get Clinton to compose his PR releases. Since Bearden won't respond directly, it seems like you and Robin van Spaandonk are emerging as Bearden's only allies (what happened to Vince?). Please, Vortex, if anyone out there claims to understand what Bearden is up to (i.e. how he measure that the MEG is COP=5 and still is not be able to use about 30 percent of that output to self-sustain) please enlighten this particular cretin (me) before I make an even bigger ass out of myself. > If anyone should experience valid COP's >1 with standard linear loads, please > speak out! Indeed ! Thanks in advance, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 08:20:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29373; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:19:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:19:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208110420.02ab1488 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:17:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: <3A30842B.65DB bellsouth.net> References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QaTY31.0.lA7.pdGCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >All systems are bandwidth limited, ie they do not pass all frequencies. Are you sure about that? Horace Heffner explained how a load resistor might fail, with the "skin effect." He explained, "That fraction of energy not carried in the resistor can heat the air, etc., around the resistor to some extent, but the effective resistance will change with frequency, and thus the power drawn off in the form of heat will change with frequency." Okay, I understand that, but how about a full-scale water-based calorimeter? What happens when you put the resistor underwater? The fraction of energy not carried in the resistor heats the water, and the energy which *was* carried in the resistor also heats the water. It seems to me that no matter how fast the spike is, the water will capture it all. Except for the fraction of energy lost in the control leads above the water line, which might vary with the intensity of the spike. Naturally this would be much less sensitive than a regular power meter, and much slower. I am not suggesting it would have a practical use, or that power meters are fatally flawed because they have known design limits. I am just curious about this spike issue. It seems to me that skeptics who yell about spikes are saying the calorimetry cannot "overlook" energy from spikes, whereas the input power meter can, and that is why the calorimeter sometimes shows artifactual excess heat. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 08:35:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16926; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:31:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:31:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3A310CD3.7676 suite224.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:31:15 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Liquid ozone for John Schnurer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dh02I2.0.O84.gpGCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > (snip) > I have a feeling that both of you are talking about hydrogen peroxide. Probably so, Horace - but what was the "Liquid Ozone Co." talking about? :-) We ran some small rocket engines at LeRC years ago that used 90 percent hydrogen peroxide. But, liquid O3 was a research dream at that time! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 09:02:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26939; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <002f01c06151$7537a480$7258ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001208110420.02ab1488@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:59:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"iXJr03.0.na6.aBHCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, all: A little perspective on RF power measurement. Instruments which rely on internal thermal measurements -- resistors and calibrated thermistors -- are in fact automatic calorimeters. In normal usage, 'skin effect' means that magnetic fields due to the current tend to cause the electrons to flow in the outer surface of a conductor instead of its body, so the effective cross-section of a wire may be less that its physical cross section. For this reason "Litz" wire, consisting of many fine strands insulated from one another, is used in high frequency inductors, and in some cases silver pating is used. Skin effect in an instrument load resistor may mean that the effective resistance is higher that that measured at DC. There are straightforward ways to measure and compensate for this effect. If a thermal RF power meter is to be 'sensitive', then there needs to be an amplifier between the signal source and the load resistor. That amplifier will have limited bandwidth and dynamic range, and can so distort a hypothetical spike. Again, the amplifier can be characterized by straightforward means, so it's response to a spike can be determined. If you don't like this, you revert to the classical techniques of sensitive measurement before electronic amplifiers were invented and connect the load resistor directly to the load, no amplifiers. Then you make sure your calorimeter and its controls (which can be electronic) are very, very good, as is done in high quality CF measurements. Then you can detect thermal milliwatts or microwatts. Then your bandwidth can extend into the infrared. Don't think this can't be done, it is done routinely in astronomy with deep IR cameras. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 09:47:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08067; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:44:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:44:59 -0800 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:21:56 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: MEG Info (part deux) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3118B4.22A5B2E4 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"y6VG7.0.uz1.QuHCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One more indulgence, please, Jon (forgive me for previous misspelling of your name and numerous other typos in prior message). The most important thing I meant to ask you, before I got sidetracked on historical issues is the following: Jon Flickinger wrote: > IMHO, it is a waste of time to attempt power measurements of the MEG standard > load resistors (that is, any linear resistive device) if one expects to see any > excess energy. The output loads must be resistive (non-reactive) and nonlinear. > The resistance must decrease with increasing voltage and the power must be > calculated from the output voltage and current. Whoa. If the resistance decreases with increasing voltage, how can you know this in advance for any particular voltage? Does some manufacturer out there make a precision nonlinear resistor suitable for taking accurate current measurements? If so, how do you deal with that in your instrumentation? If not, is this a homemade resistor kind of thing - is that what Naudin means by "conditioning"? Did you (or Naudin) use the initial resistance numbers when you took your power measurements or the (presumably lower numbers) that would be applicable at higher voltage ? IMHO his scope is not capable of making accurate power measurements with a nonlinear resistor anyway, is yours?. > Those of you powering up your > MEG for the first time with pure resistive loads, will find the waveforms do not > match Bearden's nor JLN's! Only with nonlinear loads and a properly "tuned" MEG > will you see the near half sine current waveform in your primary coils. As an abstract issue, it really wouldn't matter whether or not the load were nonlinear IF you were able to make the necessary adjustments with your instrumentation, so this seems like a "red herring" to me. But as a practical matter, it would be next to impossible to make those adjustments anyway - and that is precisely why it is standard practice to use a linear resistor. Isn't the net result, really like saying, in effect, "the MEG is not OU, using standard practice, so we will devise a scheme that makes it appear to be OU? Your comments on this issue and on your own measurements and the instrumentation that you used to take them would be greatly appreciated. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:08:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20541; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:04:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A31226D.6934472E informatics.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:03:25 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YbMHx1.0.r05.cAICw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, See inserts in text below- Jones Beene wrote: > Jon Flickinger wrote: > > > I can now understand why the MEG presents certain problems in achieving a > > self-running state and it may not be necessary as Tom Bearden has recently tried > > to point out! > > With all due respect, John, isn't this statement a total cop-out (or should I say > COP-out)? > > If you really believe what you just wrote - Please explain very specifically why the > MEG with COP=5 (or 10, or whatever is the current delusion-de-jour) cannot be > operated in a self-powered mode? Please try to do this without impugning my > inability to understand the fineries of open-system, closed system or whatever. As I stated in the clip above, "certain problems" exist to achieve a self-powered MEG. I'm of the opinion that it is possible but not without difficulty! I am presently in pursuit of attempting to get a MEG device self-running, simply because it will prove beyond doubt that the device works. > If it is true, surely it can be explained precisely by someone out there- and it > looks > like you have been trying to replicate this work? Are you also getting these > readings? I've been attempting replication of the MEG since Bearden's paper appeared on the DOE website. If the readings you're referring to are COP's >1, yes, I've gotten these readings on my instruments. These instruments include a Voltech PM3000 for the main power measurements, plus many other various power meters, DMM's, current probes, scopes, from HP, Tek, Clark-Hess, Valhalla Scientific, Yokogawa and others. I use redundant measurement techniques as the art would dictate for this type of experiment. IMHO, my measurement errors are within 5%! With certain configurations of my replication yielding COP's >4, it should self-run as this power is REAL although it requires nonlinear loads to achieve the results! > If the energy is being transmitted from ZPE or from the "vacuum," as Robin seems to > be asserting, then how is it being manifested? Does the MEG heat up? cool Down? Is > this also a thermodynamic question or is the COP based on only electromagnetic > factors?. I've not noticed any anomalous thermal characteristics except for normal heating of the loads. When using linear resistive loads, I had achieved efficiencies up to a 96% level with output wattage in the teens, so the basic standard system can be efficient if so designed. IMO at this point, the excess energy appears to be generated by a unique form of EM in the MEG. > Most of all - if it's not just electrical energy, then how can you know it's there?? I think it is electrical energy because I've measured it! > Look at this MEG episode in the perspective of recent history: > > 1.) Joe Newman has been making almost these same bogus claims for many years > 2.) In the early days, one Newman's biggest supporter was Bearden > 3.) Newman has biked investors for big $$. > 4.) Bearden goes public with his claims and IMMEDIATELY, even before the claims can > be verified, we learn that he already has stock ready to sell!! I was not aware that MEL was offering stock! In fact to the contrary! In a conversation I had with Lee Kenny of MEL, he indicated they had NO intention of selling any stock. Has there been an SEC filing for an IPO or some other offering that I've missed? > 5.) Oh almost forgot. When Newman was finally pressed by his gullible investors to > produce a self-running motor, he and many others tried to do it for many months - > and when it wouldn't work, he had the unmitigated audacity to claim that there were > really TWO kinds of electricity in the universe - and that since his motor produced > only the second kind, this wasn't a fair test !! I'm not making this up - it's a > matter of historical record. > > Do we want to see history repeat itself? Of course not. > I apologize if it appears that I'm trying to pick on you - or on anyone else but > these are truly MOMENTOUS claims. And if nobody questions them at this level, do you > think that the casual investor will flinch when Bearden tries to go national. How > will that then reflect on us, when he is proven to be a con man, or at best in total > denial of what COP > 1 means. He should get Clinton to compose his PR releases. Agreed!!! My goal is to see (hopefully) in my lifetime a successful OU device that will benefit us all. > Since Bearden won't respond directly, it seems like you and Robin van Spaandonk are > emerging as Bearden's only allies (what happened to Vince?). Please, Vortex, if > anyone out there claims to understand what Bearden is up to (i.e. how he measure > that the MEG is COP=5 and still is not be able to use about 30 percent of that > output to self-sustain) please enlighten this particular cretin (me) before I make > an even bigger ass out of myself. I was intending to drop any further investigation of the MEG on my end due to the fact I wanted to investigate Kunel's technology as disclosed in his patent DE3024814 and also Asoaka 5,926,083 due to the similarities to the MEG, however, I will now attempt to close the loop on my MEG and we'll see what happens! > > If anyone should experience valid COP's >1 with standard linear loads, please > > speak out! > > Indeed ! > > Thanks in advance, > > Jones Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:54:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01561; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:51:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:51:51 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:48:26 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a322c0b.990789797 mail.midiowa.net> References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E@informatics.net> In-Reply-To: <3A31226D.6934472E informatics.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA01521 Resent-Message-ID: <"tuE2I1.0.JO.7tICw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jon, On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:03:25 -0600, Jon Flickinger wrote: >Jones Beene wrote: >> With all due respect, John, isn't this statement a total cop-out (or should I say >> COP-out)? >> >> If you really believe what you just wrote - Please explain very specifically why the >> MEG with COP=5 (or 10, or whatever is the current delusion-de-jour) cannot be >> operated in a self-powered mode? Please try to do this without impugning my >> inability to understand the fineries of open-system, closed system or whatever. > >As I stated in the clip above, "certain problems" exist to achieve a self-powered MEG. >I'm of the opinion that it is possible but not without difficulty! I am presently in >pursuit of attempting to get a MEG device self-running, simply because it will prove >beyond doubt that the device works. As I understand the MEG (and my understanding could be faulty), the MEG produces non-linear pulses of electricity at some specific pulse frequency. If this is true, then charging a capacitor bank with these pulses when they occur, then switching the capacitor bank to a load (feeding a power conversion circuit) during the interval between pulses is eminently feasible -- it's done all the time in power supplies. I fail to see what the problem could be. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 10:59:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04126; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:57:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:57:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3A312EF7.8DDB2902 informatics.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:56:55 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info (part deux) References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3118B4.22A5B2E4@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-FW1E2.0.K01.cyICw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, See inserts in text- Jones Beene wrote: > One more indulgence, please, Jon (forgive me for previous misspelling of your name > and numerous other typos in prior message). Hey no problem! > The most important thing I meant to ask you, before I got sidetracked on historical > issues is the following: > > Jon Flickinger wrote: > > > IMHO, it is a waste of time to attempt power measurements of the MEG standard > > load resistors (that is, any linear resistive device) if one expects to see any > > excess energy. The output loads must be resistive (non-reactive) and nonlinear. > > The resistance must decrease with increasing voltage and the power must be > > calculated from the output voltage and current. > > Whoa. If the resistance decreases with increasing voltage, how can you know this in > advance for any particular voltage? Does some manufacturer out there make a > precision nonlinear resistor suitable for taking accurate current measurements? I'm not sure, but with my instrumentation, no advance knowledge is needed regarding the instantaneous magnitude of the nonlinear resistance. > If so, how do you deal with that in your instrumentation? If not, is this a homemade > resistor kind of thing - is that what Naudin means by "conditioning"? JLN has published how he conditioned his load resistor on his site but as of the moment I haven't read the info. I dealt with the nonlinear load by using the Voltech PM3000 to monitor the voltage and current at each load. The power factor at the ouputs is >.75 with the Panasonic ZNR transient absorbers. > Did you (or Naudin) use the initial resistance numbers when you took your power > measurements or the (presumably lower numbers) that would be applicable at higher > voltage ? IMHO his scope is not capable of making accurate power measurements with a > nonlinear resistor anyway, is yours?. I agree that the THS720P is not the best instrument of choice with the nonlinear load measurement because you must 'program' parameters into the scope for power measurements. Since the load is changing, what values does one use in this case? With the PM3000 or any similar analyzer, it makes no difference what the dynamic load value is, as the instantaneous values are measured and then computed by DSP means. > > Those of you powering up your > > MEG for the first time with pure resistive loads, will find the waveforms do not > > match Bearden's nor JLN's! Only with nonlinear loads and a properly "tuned" MEG > > will you see the near half sine current waveform in your primary coils. > > As an abstract issue, it really wouldn't matter whether or not the load were > nonlinear IF you were able to make the necessary adjustments with your > instrumentation, so this seems like a "red herring" to me. But as a practical > matter, it would be next to impossible to make those adjustments anyway - and that > is precisely why it is standard practice to use a linear resistor. Isn't the net > result, really like saying, in effect, "the MEG is not OU, using standard practice, > so we will devise a scheme that makes it appear to be OU? I've made no adjustments to my instrumentation because it's not necessary. I prefer the MEG would produce excess output energy with linear loads and I attempted so many variations to accomplish that I lost count! I tried all the standard stuff- primary and secondary side series and parallel resonance, resonant switches, half bridge and standard inverter configuration, and even my version of power Fogal transistors for the switching devices! All this with linear loads only produced efficiencies to 96% at the best. > Your comments on this issue and on your own measurements and the instrumentation > that you used to take them would be greatly appreciated. I think I already answered this in my previous answer to your earlier post, but if you have any more questions regarding this, let me know! > Jones Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:03:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05758; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:01:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:08:52 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"gVewN.0.oP1.G0JCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:27 AM 12/8/0, thomas malloy wrote: >>Scott Little wrote; >> >>In spite of all this negative evidence, I would jump on the EV >>bandwagon instantly if somebody would just show me an experiment >>that PROVED their existence. I have spent some time considering >>such an experiment and have not come up with anything workable yet. >> >>Any ideas out there? >> >I understood that when you energize the needle shaped electrode, >described in KS's patents in the appropriate atmosphere you get a >steady stream on donut shaped plasma vortexed shooting at the target. >Are you telling me that this is not so? A "doughnut shaped plasma" does not meet Ken Shoulder's definition of "EV" because plasma is neutral and EV's are said to consist of electrons with possibly one positive particle. The ratio of negative to positive charge is said to be huge. In fact, it is this large ratio that provides the anomaly, the possibility of violation of COE. >I understood that this was a >straight forward process. I also understood that the metal used to >seed the EV's which is injected in the area between the end of the >needle electrode and the sheath was sucked into the EV's . In KS's >paper on the website, I understood him to say that when the metal in >the melted area on the target is analyzed, it has an odd isotopic >ratio indicating fusion events. Even if true, this is not evidence for EV's, only of LENR. One of the major problems with Shoulders' theory is he describes a mechanism for generating EV's that is centered only at the cathode, yet a current path to an anode is required to generate an EV. If you impose a dielectric barrier, then the supposed EV's are not emitted. A small anode foil placed on top of the barrier does permit a brief current flow, provided the capacitance to ground from the foil is large enough to bear the leader current, but this is just another form of current path to ground. If Shoulder's theory were correct, then no completed leader-like mechancism would be involved because there is not sufficient time for a leader to form. The EV would be gone from the cathode before it could "know" there was a dielectric in front of the anode. The EV would be perfectly capable of being emitted toward a dielectric covered anode. This does not happen, so the theory is wrong. I can dig up my experiment notes on this in a week or so, if this is important enough. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:08:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07261; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:06:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:06:59 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:14:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Liquid ozone for John Schnurer Resent-Message-ID: <"HIRUG1.0.Jn1.I5JCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:31 AM 12/8/0, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >(snip) > >> I have a feeling that both of you are talking about hydrogen peroxide. > >Probably so, Horace - but what was the "Liquid Ozone Co." talking >about? :-) Ozone plus water produces hydrogen peroxide, I think. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:16:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09481; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:13:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:13:32 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:20:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MEG Info Resent-Message-ID: <"_KbQG1.0.2K2.SBJCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:03 PM 12/8/0, Jon Flickinger wrote: >I was intending to drop any further investigation of the MEG on my end due >to the fact I >wanted to investigate Kunel's technology as disclosed in his patent >DE3024814 and also >Asoaka 5,926,083 due to the similarities to the MEG, however, I will now >attempt to >close the loop on my MEG and we'll see what happens! BRAVO! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:28:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02951; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:24:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:24:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:31:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me - Instrument free designs Resent-Message-ID: <"WoKob3.0.kj.ILJCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:38 AM 12/8/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >In the 1950s, Teller designed reactors with "inherent >safety," meaning "its safety must be guaranteed by the laws of nature and >not merely by the details of its engineering" - F. Dyson. General Atomics >built prototype reactors with half the moderating hydrogen in the fuel >rods. In actual demonstrations, when the reactors were deliberately put in >uncontrolled runaway conditions, they shut down in milliseconds, much >faster than any engineered design could ever achieve. Why were these kinds of reactors not built? Perhaps they should be reviewed again, in the present economic climate. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:37:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15818; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:33:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3A31374A.A920F952 informatics.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:32:26 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E@informatics.net> <3a322c0b.990789797@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rbPog3.0.4t3.nTJCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Dean, See inserted text below- "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:03:25 -0600, Jon Flickinger > wrote: > > >Jones Beene wrote: > > >> With all due respect, John, isn't this statement a total cop-out (or should I say > >> COP-out)? > >> > >> If you really believe what you just wrote - Please explain very specifically why the > >> MEG with COP=5 (or 10, or whatever is the current delusion-de-jour) cannot be > >> operated in a self-powered mode? Please try to do this without impugning my > >> inability to understand the fineries of open-system, closed system or whatever. > > > >As I stated in the clip above, "certain problems" exist to achieve a self-powered MEG. > >I'm of the opinion that it is possible but not without difficulty! I am presently in > >pursuit of attempting to get a MEG device self-running, simply because it will prove > >beyond doubt that the device works. > > As I understand the MEG (and my understanding could be faulty), the > MEG produces non-linear pulses of electricity at some specific pulse > frequency. This is true. The input voltage waveshape is square for the most part and the input current waveshape is near half sine which alternates between core halves. The output voltages and currents are basically distorted sine waves as seen in JLN's website. > If this is true, then charging a capacitor bank with these pulses when > they occur, then switching the capacitor bank to a load (feeding a > power conversion circuit) during the interval between pulses is > eminently feasible -- it's done all the time in power supplies. > I fail to see what the problem could be. > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) Basically you are correct but the difficulty lies in the high voltages one has to deal with plus, the power conversion circuit must also provide this conversion on a cycle by cycle basis with a high power factor similar to high power factor inputs in power supplies only in reverse. If one attempts to rectify and filter the output then provide conversion down to suitable levels for the switching power supply, the resulting power factor of the filtering at the high voltage level will be so low that the COP required to just overcome this could be as high as 5 or greater not counting converter losses. An interesting problem but one I believe can be achieved. Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:38:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16443; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:34:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:07:55 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: MEG Info To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A31318B.CCA339E6 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E informatics.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"H1HOo.0.h04.xUJCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jon, Thanks for the response. It is reassuring to find that someone both qualified and communicative is working on this - and with both the right instrumentation and a clear head - particularly, now that you have agreed to try to "close the loop." Jon Flickinger wrote: > If the readings you're referring to are COP's >1, yes, I've gotten these > readings on my instruments. These instruments include a Voltech PM3000 for the main > power measurements, plus many other various power meters, DMM's, current probes, scopes, > from HP, Tek, Clark-Hess, Valhalla Scientific, Yokogawa and others. I use redundant > measurement techniques as the art would dictate for this type of experiment. IMHO, my > measurement errors are within 5%! With certain configurations of my replication yielding > COP's >4, it should self-run as this power is REAL although it requires nonlinear loads > to achieve the results! This is incredible. I must admit to being almost in a state of awe except for that nonlinear thing - not to mention kicking myself in the butt, because I spent a good deal of time some time ago trying to replicate US Patent #4,006,401 by Villasenor de Rivas. That patent describes what seemed at the time like the best possible design for flux switching - i.e. oscillating the flux from a permanent magnet along different paths to produce, in effect, a permanent magnet powered transformer that could extract power from the magnets directly and ZPE indirectly. I was not able to get better than 95% efficiency, so it is is very likely that the MEG is using a totally different principle. Flux switching itself does not seem illogical, at first take. The field from very powerful PMs ought to be able to be shunted by saturating a comparatively weak orthogonal magnet (as the patent suggests) or by other means such as high frequency through a ferrite. Permeability varies with frequency strongly in many ferrites. In a T type ferrite such as MnZn it has about 10,000ui up to 100 khz but at 1Mhz the permeability drops to 2500ui.... a %75 reduction! This should be usable, but I could not make it work. Others on this forum suggested this technique and may have tried it too (Gerorge Holtz?). The biggest mistake that I was making logically was only discovered with magnetic paper. It is this: When you block a flux field from a permanent magnet, it does not automatically seek to stay "fixed" within a high permeability path, as you might expect. When you divert an established flux to a path requires an expenditure of EMF, for instance, to reverse the orientation of persisting domains then the flux will instead "jump" out into a low permeability medium (air) because this doesn't require the expenditure of EMF. It is as simple as that. I was assuming that the flux would stay within a high permeability medium no matter what. > > Most of all - if it's not just electrical energy, then how can you know it's there?? > > I think it is electrical energy because I've measured it! This is fantastic if true!! I, for one, will be "eating crow" big time. > I was intending to drop any further investigation of the MEG on my end due to the fact I > wanted to investigate Kunel's technology as disclosed in his patent DE3024814 and also > Asoaka 5,926,083 due to the similarities to the MEG, however, I will now attempt to > close the loop on my MEG and we'll see what happens! Please keep me up to date on your efforts. I will await your closed loop version before dining, however. If you do close the loop, I hope I can get that crow prepared "well done." Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 11:49:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20772; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:44:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:44:38 -0800 Message-ID: <001901c06150$08c881d0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr><5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:49:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"lq1Iv.0.T45.beJCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote > Can this possibly be affected by spikes? Can it "miss" some of the power > because the spike is too quick? I do not see how. That would seem to be > physically impossible -- which is the point of the design, I suppose. > Since these units are usually used to measure microwave power they are often rated for frequencies up to 18 GHz. Since they are intended for RF measurement, however, they often contain a series capacitor at the input to block unwanted DC and low frequency AC. It may be practical to remove this capacitor for low frequency measurement purposes. - > Meters which sample the power periodically can miss a brief fluctuation, > but can this one? Of course a spike with less than the minimum detectable > level of energy will not register, but it should not matter how long or > short that spike is. > The input is coaxial with an impedance of 50 ohms and only low power measurements can be made without external attenuators. No spikes should be missed, but the measurement represents the power level integrated by the thermal time constant of the tiny resistors in the bridge. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:08:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28430; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:05:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:05:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A314079.84DA95E0 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:11:37 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001208110420.02ab1488@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JYpA2.0.8y6.7yJCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > >All systems are bandwidth limited, ie they do not pass all frequencies. > > Are you sure about that? Yup. We often joke that a good measuring instrument will quantify "DC to Daylight" which would be a range from 0 Hz to TeraHertz energy. Obviously, no such device exists that can measure that range. The Dranetz that you use to measure line power won't do so well with the GigaHertz frequency components of RF spikes. You have to characterize your signal in order to select the proper measuring instrument. What is the highest frequency that can exist -- the Planck wavelength? This is what Dr. Puthoff surmises as the cutoff point for the vacuum energy. Try to measure that one! :) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:23:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02189; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:19:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A3065F9.20B52423 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:18:19 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"0B5Uj2.0.1Y.s8KCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >William Beaty writes: > > > >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > > > >> ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and > > > >> this is easily proven as follows: > > > > Something about your original message was seriously bugging me, and > > I just realized what it is. "if your mind is open and you wish to > > test 'crazy' claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them > > away, hop on board." > >Aside from generally agreeing with WB's observation, I also have to >put my two cents in regarding Mitch's attack. ***{I will post a detailed and hopefully polite response to Bill's remarks later today. For the moment, however, I cannot resist noting that calling an idea "totally bogus utter nonsense" is in no sense an attack on a person. We have all put forth such ideas on occasion, and while we may not have been pleased to hear them so labeled at the time, we were ultimately the better for it, provided that we took to heart the arguments by which such a conclusion was demonstrated. --MJ}*** > >The original claim, if I understood it, was that there are >circumstances under which hot water freezes sooner than cool water >with similar external conditions. ***{If so, then the report is not anomalous, and did not belong on vortex. There is nothing surprising about the notion that a lower temperature sample will take longer to freeze than a higher temperature sample, if the samples differ, either internally or externally, in ways other than temperature. Who would be surprised, for example, to be told that water mixed with antifreeze takes longer to freeze than warmer water that has not been mixed with antifreeze, or that a sample of water sitting next to an external heat source will take longer to freeze than a sample of water at higher temperature which is not next to an external heat source? The answer: nobody. The implication: if the Mpemba effect describes an anomaly, it must claim that two samples of water which differ solely in that one has been brought down to a temperature nearer to freezing than the other, must sometimes result in the higher temperature sample freezing before the lower temperature sample. But that is palpable nonsense: if conditions other than temperature are the same, and if water is one substance only, then when the higher temperature sample is brought down to the temperature of the lower temperature sample, it will take the same amount of time that the lower temperature sample would have taken to come down from the same starting temperature, and when the two samples are then lowered on down to freezing, they will take the same amount of time. Result: the sample that started out at the higher temperature *must* take more total time to freeze. This is so obvious that it can only be described as a no brainer, and hence to deny it can reasonably be described as "totally bogus utter nonsense." In summary, if the "Mpemba effect" belongs on vortex, it claims an anomaly. That means it constitutes a claim that two same-sized samples of water under identical conditions, both internal and external, may be such that the sample starting at the higher temperature takes longer to freeze than the sample which starts at the lower temperature. However, as I demonstrated, that is logically impossible, unless we assume that ordinary water can be separated into substances previously unknown to science--i.e., unless we are dealing with "polywater." I don't know about you, but for me, "polywater" is beyond the pale: too much of experimental science rests on the premise that the constituents of ordinary water have been identified, for me to seriously consider tossing that out without mind-bogglingly massive supportive evidence. Until then, I will limit myself to the study of Witches' brooms and similar anomalies, where useful insights are more likely to be found. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Well, all Mitch did, really, is demonstrate that there are _also_ >circumstances under which cool water freezes sooner than hot water >with similar external circumstances. Frankly, I think that was >pretty obvious to start with -- and it has no bearing whatsoever on >the existence of the Mpemba Effect. ***{As noted above, what was obvious to start with was that if the two samples differ in ways other than temperature, it is utterly unsurprising that the lower temperature sample might take longer to freeze. There are probably thousands of ways that such an outcome could be arranged, and while the investigation of some of those arrangements might be interesting, there is no reason to think that any of them would be worthy of discussion on a group devoted to anomalous science. --MJ}*** > >As (I hope) we all know you can't disprove an "existence" claim with a >counter example. A single counter example only disproves a claim of >universality. And asserting that a counter example disproves >something doesn't make it so, of course. ***{This is a group devoted to the examination of anomalous science, not "interesting stuff that falls within the realm of conventional science." Thus the "Mpemba effect" either does not belong here, or else it is "totally bogus utter nonsense." (Or "polywater," which is just a different way of saying the same thing.) That's the way I see it, at any rate. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:51:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13354; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:49:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:49:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3A314AFC.7490C083 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:56:28 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001208110420.02ab1488@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"16Yvt.0.WG3.YbKCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > >All systems are bandwidth limited, ie they do not pass all frequencies. > > Are you sure about that? Horace Heffner explained how a load resistor might > fail, with the "skin effect." He explained, "That fraction of energy not > carried in the resistor can heat the air, etc., around the resistor to some > extent, but the effective resistance will change with frequency, and thus > the power drawn off in the form of heat will change with frequency." > > Okay, I understand that, but how about a full-scale water-based > calorimeter? What happens when you put the resistor underwater? The > fraction of energy not carried in the resistor heats the water, and the > energy which *was* carried in the resistor also heats the water. It seems > to me that no matter how fast the spike is, the water will capture it all. > Except for the fraction of energy lost in the control leads above the water > line, which might vary with the intensity of the spike. > > Naturally this would be much less sensitive than a regular power meter, and > much slower. I am not suggesting it would have a practical use, or that > power meters are fatally flawed because they have known design limits. I am > just curious about this spike issue. It seems to me that skeptics who yell > about spikes are saying the calorimetry cannot "overlook" energy from > spikes, whereas the input power meter can, and that is why the calorimeter > sometimes shows artifactual excess heat. Sorry, I didn't answer your total question. RF energy can be consumed in the leads connecting to the resistor, it can be radiated into space, or it can be reflected back to the source. But these should cause very small errors in most cases. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 12:54:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14361; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:52:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:52:36 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208150907.02cccd48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:52:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Teller's 'Inherently safe' Triga fission reactors In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2X_Ob2.0.JW3.JeKCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/38999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 10:38 AM 12/8/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[snip] > >In the 1950s, Teller designed reactors with "inherent > >safety," meaning "its safety must be guaranteed by the laws of nature and > >not merely by the details of its engineering" - F. Dyson. General Atomics > >built prototype reactors with half the moderating hydrogen in the fuel > >rods. In actual demonstrations, when the reactors were deliberately put in > >uncontrolled runaway conditions, they shut down in milliseconds, much > >faster than any engineered design could ever achieve. > > >Why were these kinds of reactors not built? Perhaps they should be >reviewed again, in the present economic climate. I think they should be reviewed, along with some other innovative fission reactor designs, but the present social climate may make this impossible. The power companies lost a fortune on conventional fission reactors, especially in the accident at Three Mile Island. The public was spooked by Chernobyl. Why were Teller's reactors not built? Actually, they were. They were called "Trigas," they cost $144,000 in 1956, and 60 have been sold. Dyson says the Triga is "one of the very few reactors that made money for the company which built it." His description of the dedication ceremony for the first one reads like a good old fashioned science fiction story: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The climax of the dedication ceremony was a demonstration of the capabilities of the Triga. Freddy had attached to the speaker's podium a switch and a large illuminated dial. At the end of his speech, Niels Bohr pressed the switch and a muffled hiss was heard from the direction of the Triga building. The noise came from the sudden release of compressed air that was used to pull the control rods at high speed out of the Triga core. The pointer on the large dial, which was graduated to show the power output of the Triga in megawatts, swung over instantaneously to 1500 megawatts and then quickly subsided to half a megawatt. The demonstration was over. It had been rehearsed many times before, to make sure there would be no unpleasant surprises. The little reactor did in fact run at a rate of 1500 megawatts for a few thousandths of a second before its warm neutrons brought it under control. - F. Dyson, "Disturbing the Universe," p. 101 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - What happened after that is a complicated, sad story of missed opportunities, mismarketing, happenstance, bad decisions by government and industry leaders, overhasty standardization, and so on. For example, the Navy developed a pressurized water reactor for submarines, and people began scaling it up for other purposes. The same kind of circumstances caused society to standardize on other suboptimal technology, such as Windows instead of the Macintosh, internal combustion engines instead of hybrid engines. Dyson thinks that if many different reactors designs had been tested, and scientists had been free to tinker around with them, we would have cheaper and more reliable ones today. He may be right, but I'm not sure I would like to see dozens of informal groups of scientists tinker with fission reactors. The ones who diddle with cold fusion are pretty cavalier about health and safety standards. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:04:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17783; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:59:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:59:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3A314B7D.372DF47B informatics.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 14:58:37 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E informatics.net> <3A31318B.CCA339E6@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_dC8m2.0.ZL4.lkKCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, See inserts- Jones Beene wrote: > Jon, > This is incredible. I must admit to being almost in a state of awe except for that nonlinear > thing - not to mention kicking myself in the butt, because I spent a good deal of time some > time ago trying to replicate US Patent #4,006,401 by Villasenor de Rivas. > That patent describes what seemed at the time like the best possible design for flux > switching - i.e. oscillating the flux from a permanent magnet along different paths to > produce, in effect, a permanent magnet powered transformer that could extract power from > the magnets directly and ZPE indirectly. I'm not familiar with this particular patent but will obtain later today as it sounds like it parallels others I'm studying. Thanks! > I was not able to get better than 95% efficiency, so it is is very likely that the MEG is > using a totally different principle. Flux switching itself does not seem illogical, at first > take. The field from very powerful PMs ought to be able to be shunted by saturating a > comparatively weak orthogonal magnet (as the patent suggests) or by other means such as > high frequency through a ferrite. Permeability varies with frequency strongly in many > ferrites. In a T type ferrite such as MnZn it has about 10,000ui up to 100 khz but at 1Mhz > the permeability drops to 2500ui.... a %75 reduction! This should be usable, but I could > not make it work. Others on this forum suggested this technique and may have tried it too > (Gerorge Holtz?). Boy does this sound familiar! Not being familiar with your setup and the experiment, I would have to say it would be interesting to repeat with nonlinear loads! > The biggest mistake that I was making logically was only discovered with magnetic paper. It > is this: When you block a flux field from a permanent magnet, it does not automatically seek > to stay "fixed" within a high permeability path, as you might expect. When you divert an > established flux to a path requires an expenditure of EMF, for instance, to reverse the > orientation of persisting domains then the flux will instead "jump" out into a low > permeability medium (air) because this doesn't require the expenditure of EMF. It is as > simple as that. I was assuming that the flux would stay within a high permeability medium > no matter what. This is very interesting to me! I would like to hear more about this later. > > > > > Most of all - if it's not just electrical energy, then how can you know it's there?? > > > > I think it is electrical energy because I've measured it! > > This is fantastic if true!! I, for one, will be "eating crow" big time. Naah! Just one week ago, I was posting that JLN's MEG success was a result of measurement errors! Although there may be some errors, I'm of a different opinion now! > > I was intending to drop any further investigation of the MEG on my end due to the fact I > > wanted to investigate Kunel's technology as disclosed in his patent DE3024814 and also > > Asoaka 5,926,083 due to the similarities to the MEG, however, I will now attempt to > > close the loop on my MEG and we'll see what happens! > > Please keep me up to date on your efforts. Most certainly will! > I will await your closed loop version before dining, however. If you do close the loop, I > hope I can get that crow prepared "well done." > > Regards, > > Jones Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:09:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20134; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:08:09 -0800 Message-ID: <005901c0615b$aa1428e0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E@informatics.net> <3a322c0b.990789797@mail.midiowa.net> <3A31374A.A920F952@informatics.net> Subject: Re: MEG Info Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:13:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"NKeFr3.0.Rw4.usKCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jon, You seem to have a really well equipped lab! Like Jones Beene I am shocked by the results of your more sophisticated OU measurements on the MEG. I have done some work with flux gates and have never found them to be OU for what seemed like very good reasons. However, I never tried making measurements with nonlinear loads. Perhaps it is the nonlinear load and not the flux gate that is critical. Is the MEG COP > 1 when driving a bridge rectifier with a capacitor filter, this would present a highly nonlinear load. Does it work with a back to back zener diode load? The ZNRs have a somewhat softer nonlinearity than the zeners, is this a critical factor? I have designed highly efficient resonant down converters for high voltage inputs. It should be easy to close the loop with COP > 1.5 if you can get this in rectified DC output from the MEG. You wrote: >If one attempts to rectify and filter the output then provide conversion down > to suitable levels for the switching power supply, the resulting power factor of the > filtering at the high voltage level will be so low that the COP required to just overcome > this could be as high as 5 or greater not counting converter losses. - I really don't understand this comment, the proper design should make this down conversion very efficient. I would be happy to help in any way I can with the design to close the loop. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:16:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22640; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:14:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:14:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3150EC.ACD53F5 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:21:48 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me - Instrument free designs References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208101730.00bda418 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7jpQ51.0.SX5.IzKCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Scott Little quotes Bearden: > > >See the non sequitur? Measurement is not accurate until there is no > >measurement needed. > > I think this is intended to be sarcastic, but anyway, it is the first > sensible thing Bearden has said, and I fully agree. "No measurement needed" > is the ideal measurement technique. > > I cannot understand Bearden. I have tried for years to understand Bearden and I think I am beginning to get an inkling at what he's trying to say. When you place a battery across a pair of wires, the potential appears at the end of the wires before current flows. I think Tom claims that energy can be tapped FROM THE POTENTIAL ALONE and this power comes from the ZPF. I remember a discussion by him about how you could get more power from a battery by switching it on and off faster than the ions can recombine inside the battery. These are obvious simplifications; but, his argument about tapping energy from pure scalar potential could only come from the ZPF. It is actually not that far removed from Dr. Puthoff's argument that the ground state electron in motion around the hydrogen atom must radiate and therefore must be exchanging energy with the ZPF. The scalar potential (voltage) is causing electron motion (current) in the load; but, those electrons are not in a closed loop with the source of the battery, ie they are not destroying the electrical dipoles created inside the battery. If this is true, it really is a "second kind of electricity". And I can see why it might be difficult to create a feedback loop which could sustain the system without a source potential. "That's my opinion, I could be wrong." :) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:24:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25061; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:23:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:23:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: An 'EV' experiment posted In-Reply-To: <3A3102A2.679967E6 pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iQ9wE1.0.V76.u4LCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I asked Hal Fox if there were any Charge Cluster experiments simple enough that students could replicate them. His response is posted on this page: http://www.amasci.com/weird/const.html It involves striking sparks to an aluminum foil sheet which has been coated with a powder/epoxy insulator. The result is that tiny holes are bored through the metal. I'd encountered this earlier in a Shoulders paper, but I didn't know that the procedure was so simple. See: http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Charge%20Clusters%20In%20Action.pdf http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Charge%20Clusters%20In%20Action.pdf Hal Fox also mentioned that one method Ken Shoulders uses to detect excess energy is to use a capacitor to pulse a Charge Cluster device, and then gather the output pulse using a second capacitor. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:26:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25510; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:23:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:23:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:21:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"LuNLs1.0.SE6.P5LCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >> >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: >> > >> >> ***{The "Mpemba Effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, and this is >>easily >> >> proven as follows: > >Something about your original message was seriously bugging me, and I just >realized what it is. "if your mind is open and you wish to test 'crazy' >claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board." > >>From Vortex-L rule #2. ***{If you intend to interpret the above as banning the use of words such as "bogus," or "nonsense," or "ridiculous," or "absurd," etc., and give people the boot based on past violations of said *extremely strained* interpretation, then you will, in order to be consistent, be forced to ban every frequent poster from this list, including yourself. My own rule is straightforward: I generally avoid such words except when dealing with individuals who have introduced them directly and recently into the present discussion, or else, like Rothwell, have demonstrated by a lengthy and clear pattern of behavior that they may do so at any moment. However, if you want to ban such words, I say go for it! I can easily remove them from my vocabulary, because I don't like them myself, and use them only rarely. Rothwell, on the other hand, will have precisely the same chance of getting by without them as the proverbial snowball has in hell. :-) --MJ}*** > >I think the rules are not quite clear ***{"Not quite clear" is an understatement, if you intend to justify booting people out of the group for using words such as those listed above. As I said, every single frequent poster to this group, including you, uses such words on an occasional basis. Moreover, Jed Rothwell uses them more than anyone else here, and, in addition, is prone to go much further than that, having frequent recourse to libelous ad hominem references, suggesting that various specific researchers into anomalous science are insane, engaged in fraud, and so on. Worse, in many cases his statements appear to be based on nothing more than subjective personal value judgments and unsubstantiated gossip. Thus if you intend to rely on this sort of strained interpretation to give me the boot, while posing as the defender of the most out-of-control and unsavoy individual who posts here, then I will go sailing out the door laughing, to put it mildly. --MJ}*** , so this needs some explanation. > >Years ago on SPF, many skeptics dismissed CF evidence on the grounds that >it clearly violated well-tested theory. You cannot have fusion without >high energy, and anyone who believed differently was stupid or insane. It >was hard to hold conversations with others who took CF seriously because >of the constant noise from those who bad-mouth the very idea of CF. A >reasoned and thoughtful online community could never form there because of >fear of emotional attacks ***{"Emotional attacks" is too broad. The problem on sci.physics.fusion was not vague and general. It was something very specific: there was a hard core of individuals who did not respond to ideas with arguments, but with ad hominem attacks. Result: people who came to the group with the hope of engaging in substantive discussion were frustrated, and those who failed to develop techniques for dealing with ad hominem attacks were driven elsewhere. That is what you are doing right now, by the way: responding to my substantive arguments with an ad hominem attack. I say that because neither of your responses have said one word about the substantive content of my post. Instead of attempting to demonstrate a flaw in my reasoning, or that one of my premises did not apply to the case under discussion, you are insinuating that I am closed minded for daring to have a strong opinion on the subject. In other words, you are focusing on the person rather than on the ideas and, as such, are guilty of the precise failing that turned sci.physics.fusion into the cesspool that it was, and to a lesser degree presently is. --Mitchell Jones}*** from the arrogant ones who knew WITHOUT TESTING >that CF was pure ignorance. The solution: start a group which excludes >any "skepticism" which takes the form of evidence-bashing ***{It is OK, of course, if Jed Rothwell rejects Tom Bearden's "evidence," based on the logical insight that, if he really had a COP of 10, it would be trivially easy to close-loop the thing. Why is that OK? Apparently because Bill Beaty agrees with it. However, it is *not* OK for Mitchell Jones to reject "evidence" for the so called "Mpemba effect" based on logical insights about the nature of water. Why is that not OK? Apparently because Bill Beaty does *not* agree with it! It would appear, then, that you are in the throes of the very same moral crisis that afflicts those who have turned sci.physics.fusion into a cesspool. What crisis? Simple: they want to refute some proposition with which they disagree, but they are afraid that if they attempt substantive arguments, they will be shot down. As a result, they are tempted to employ the tactics of evasion--which means: to shift the focus of the discussion away from the substantive scientific issue by introducing pejoratives. Their preference, of course, is to accuse their opponents of being ignorant or stupid, while yours is to accuse me of being close minded, intolerant, arrogant, etc. However, the effect is the same: the focus of the discussion is shifted away from the substantive scientific questions, and into irrelevancies--i.e., into this strained reinvention of your own rules. I don't want to be unkind, but I suggest that you get a grip on yourself, before you do something you will later regret. That means if you don't like my view of the so called Mpemba effect, you should either criticize my reasoning or the applicability of my premises, rather than indulge in this unseemly twisting of the rules of the group. --Mitchell Jones}*** , or the >elevation of known theory to the status of unquestionable "fact." ***{A brief and clear cut logical argument is not the same thing as a theory. To attack sound logic, you have to show that one or more of the premises of the argument--e.g., that water is one substance rather than many--is false. If you can't, then the conclusion follows out of inexorable necessity. A theory, on the other hand, is seldom either brief or clear cut, and as a consequence it is subject to being experimentally falsified, but can almost never be demonstrated to be necessarily true. All you can say about it is that it fits the presently known facts, or does not fit them. That means the conclusion of a clear cut logical argument has *exactly* the same epistemological status as the facts--the premises--on which it is based. Result: it is entirely appropriate for a person to treat the conclusion of a clear-cut logical argument as if it has the same status as the premise on which it is based. And if the premise is that water is not a mixture of substances unknown to science--i.e., that it is not "polywater"--then the conclusion has the status of unassailable fact, and the denial of that conclusion can reasonably be described as "totally bogus utter nonsense." --MJ}*** > >Vortex-L is exclusive. It is intended to exclude people who bad-mouth >"strange" evidence, who attack UNEXPECTED evidence, or who attempt to >discredit evidence when it shows that they don't know as much as they >though they did. ***{Nothing in the rules of this group constitutes a ban on raising logical arguments to undercut "evidence," and if you were not in the throes of a serious moral crisis, you would know it. --MJ}*** Vortex-L is for those who seek out weird reports and >subject them to experimental testing. ***{That's fine *only* if you use logic to screen out reports that have a low chance of being true. Only an idiot would rush out and try to test any damn fool thing he hears, however absurd it might be. Most experimenters in this group, for example, are at present refraining from testing Tom Bearden's claims because his claimed COP is so large that it would be trivially easy to close-loop the thing, if the measurements of input and output were correct. That is just logic, Bill, and it means people in this group, including you, are using logic to discount "evidence." There is nothing wrong with doing that, in my opinion, provided that you state clearly the reasoning you are using, are open to criticism, and will adjust your behavior if that reasoning is overturned. --MJ}*** It's for those who want to DAMAGE >solid theories by finding the holes that lead to their replacement by >something better. ***{I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean. If a theory is solid, it doesn't have holes and can't be damaged. Speaking for myself, I seek only to damage theories that are *not* solid. --MJ}*** > >So Jed presented a possible anomaly regarding the freezing of water. > >You didn't just say "I don't believe it." That would be somewhat >acceptable. You didn't try freezing some water and then report that >nothing unusual occurred. Instead you bad-mouthed it, calling it bogus >utter nonsense. ***{Incorrect. I called it *totally* bogus utter nonsense. :-) Moreover, that's what it most assuredly is, in spades, whether you like it or not. If you disagree, then let's hear some substantive arguments to that effect, rather than a continuation of this disingenuous effort to reinvent the rules. --MJ}*** Then you used theoretical arguments to "prove" that the >evidence must be wrong ***{There was nothing "theoretical" about it. The argument was in the form of crushing logic--a classic syllogism, as it were. The conclusion is precisely as certain as is the premise--that water is one substance rather than many--and that means the "Mpemba effect" is just a new variant of the "polywater" theory, and is totally bogus utter nonsense, as I said. Yes, of course: that's a strong statement. By saying it that way, I put myself out on a limb. Result: if someone saws that limb off, I am going to look foolish. But so what? Why do you care? It's my problem, not yours! If you think I am wrong, then take out your chainsaw and cut the damn limb off, for Christ's sake! --MJ}*** , and that your hostile putdown of the anomaly was >justified. ***{I am more blunt with Rothwell than with some in this group, because I don't like his abusive behavior toward others. In spite of that, however, it is not an ad hominem attack to describe an *idea* as "totally bogus utter nonsense," and there is no personal hostility implicit in such a description. Being blunt is not the same thing as being hostile, even though people admittedly tend to be more blunt when dealing with those toward whom they feel hostility. (And, by the way: I would not describe myself as *hostile* toward Rothwell. Disappointed would be a better word: he is an exceptionally bright individual who is capable of being a far better person than he is. Result: I hold him to a higher standard than persons whom I perceive to be less bright, and become curt and dismissive when he exhibits feet of clay. That's all there is to it.) --MJ}*** > >These are actions which many people find no fault with, and which are >common in many forums. In many forums the philosophy is "extraordinary >claims require extraordinary evidence", or "ridicule and discredit all >strange ideas and the ones which survive this 'hazing' process must be >real." ***{If you think I do that, then the only reasonable reply is to ask you what you've been smoking. :-) --MJ}*** > >But on vortex-L, these are the actions of The Enemy. ***{I would say that the actions of "the enemy" bear a rather close resemblance to the actions you are taking right now--to wit: you are responding to substantive scientific arguments that I posted, by attacking my personality and character. That's why I think you are in the grip of a serious moral crisis, and suggest very strongly that you calm down and get a grip on yourself, before you do something that , at best, you will subsequently regret. (When a person does something that is wrong and, subsequently, does *not* regret it, that is a far, far worse outcome.) --MJ}*** We learn from our >experience with the CF controversy. The playing field here is >intentionally tilted to suppress these actions and to promote their >opposite. ***{Is it? Or are you, at this very moment, in the grip of the very same emotions that turned sci.physics.fusion into a cesspool? Think about it. --MJ}*** Here we practice provisional acceptance of weird reports (in >order to eliminate personal biases against them which would interfere with >our investigating them. ***{Irrefutable syllogistic logic is not a "personal bias," and it makes no sense to investigate every piece of nonsense that comes down the pike. Being "weird" is not sufficient to disqualify a report, but being in conflict with clear-cut logic from solid premises *is* sufficient. --MJ}*** ) Here we are so openminded that our brains >frequently fall out. Those who don't like that sort of thing should stick >to sci.physics and SPF. ***{You are no more openminded than I. You merely disagree with some of the logic and some of the premises that I use when screening out nonsense, that's all. But so what? Do you think there is a single individual in the group who uses *exactly* the same logic and *exactly* the same premises as you? --MJ}*** > >Note that the Mpemba Effect might be nothing more than a set of artifacts. >That's not the issue. The issue is two things: > > 1. Bad mouthing an anomaly report (which tends to cause a hostile > atmosphere and suppress later anomaly reports from others.) ***{There are tens of thousands of potential "anomaly reports" that members of this group could post here on any given day, and the only thing that keeps ghost stories, tales of witches riding brooms, and other godawful crap out, is the willingness of individuals to apply some elementary logical tests and scientific knowledge before posting. Most of the frequent posters do that out of habit, and do not need caustic rejoinders from me to encourage them in that direction. However, I have no doubt that there are many drooling idiots out there who, but for the fear of such a rejoinder, would be piling this group with shit to the rafters on a daily basis, and I suggest that if you ban "bad mouthing," they are quickly going to do just that. In any case, I will be long gone before that happens, because even if you do not boot me out the door, I frankly have no use for a group that does not permit argumentation. The notion of a "discussion group" without disagreement is a virtual contradiction in terms, and, in any case, such a group is of no interest to me. --MJ}*** > > 2. Dismissing evidence because it clearly goes against theory. ***{I repeat: syllogistic logic and theory are not the same thing. See above. --MJ}*** > >Maybe I should make the Vortex-L rules larger by specifically banning >these? ***{How do you "specifically" ban "bad mouthing" and reliance on "theory," given that you have just demonstrated a willingness to stretch both terms to cover utterances that, on substantive grounds, are perfectly reasonable? To me, your intent to use such wooly concepts amounts to a decision to behave in the arbitrary manner of the typical "moderator," who regards his position as being just a bit shy of being King. If you do it, you will wreck this group, and that I absolutely guarantee. But, hey, why listen to me? You're gonna do what you're gonna do, right? :-) --MJ}*** I thought that this part said enough: > > "If your mind is open and you wish to test 'crazy' claims rather than > ridiculing them or explaining them away, then hop on board." > >Maybe I should have said the opposite too. ***{And maybe you should just forget this "moderator" silliness and post up some *substantive* criticisms of my comments about the "Mpemba effect." Of course, if you do that, you will not be in control of the situation, and it may take a turn that is not to your liking. Dealing with me from the position of *King of Vortex*, on the other hand, ensures that things will go the way you want them to go. In any event, the choice is yours to make. --MJ}*** > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 13:50:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27801; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:45:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:45:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:39:36 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vortex rule #2 In-Reply-To: <003301c060bc$5804c680$807aadd1 mikejohnston> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"77Xd6.0.Io6.ePLCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A The Vortex-L webpage contains an expanded version of rule #2. Here it is below. It has been there for years, but it is NOT automatically sent out as part of the "Welcome" message. New users on Vortex-L who have only subscribed within the last few years might not be aware of the Cold Fusion history which spawned this group, nor of the types of behavior we consider unacceptable. See below. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L http://www.amasci.com/weird/vmore.txt THE VORTEX-L DISCUSSION GROUP To put it bluntly, Vortex-L is a forum for "true believers." Skeptics are tolerated but not welcomed. For yet another definition of the two types of people, see the excellent article in a recent issue of SKEPTIC, V5 #2, "Skepticism and Credulity: finding the balance between Type I and Type II errors" by B. Wisdom. The article discusses the philosophy behind two types of mental attitude: 1. 'Skeptics:' those who, in order to reject all falsehoods, don't mind accidentally rejecting truths. 2. 'Believers:' those who, in order to accept all truths, don't mind accidentally accepting falsehoods. Some people fall between these two descriptions. However, there is significant polarization as well: whose who are solidly in one camp or the other seem to outnumber those who succeed in remaining between the two. I have observed that each camp holds great disrespect for the other, bordering on hatred. Those of persuasion #1 regard the opposite camp as dangerously gullible "true believers" who would allow science to be damaged by irrational beliefs in things such as UFOs, psi phenomena, Free Energy, etc. Those of persuasion #2 regard the other side as dangerously closeminded "pathological skeptics" who stifle research and preserve science from the crazy notions of folks like Galileo, Goddard, the Wrights, Margulis, etc. A few years ago the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup was increasingly becoming a battleground for the two types. Those who reasoned that "we must study cold fusion because there is some evidence that it is real" were constantly attacked by those who believe "we must reject cold fusion because there is little evidence for it," and vice versa. Particularly shameful was the amount of hostility including sneering ridicule, emotional arguments, arrogant self-blindness, and great use of the low, unscientific techniques outlined in ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY. (See http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wclose.html) I started this group as an openminded "quiet harbor" for interested parties to discuss the Griggs Rotor away from the sci.physics.fusion uproar. It quickly mutated into a "believers forum" for discussion of cold fusion and other anomalous physics. I created Rule #2 to prevent this list from becoming another battleground like the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup. Vortex-L is intended to be a discussion area for researchers who practice extreme openmindedness and who will "accept falsehoods in order to avoid rejecting truths". I believe that many scientists reject new ideas because they unknowingly maintain an illusory "consensus worldview," and as a result they have become intolerant of ideas which violate that consensus. This forum is for those with a low tolerance for consensus-think and a high tolerance for "crazy ideas." Vortex-L is for those who see great value in removing their usual mental filters by provisionally accepting the validity of "impossible" phenomena in order to test them. This excellent quote found by Gene Mallove clearly states the problem, and reveals the need for "true believers" in a science community otherwise ruled by conservative skepticism: "It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them." - Arthur C. Clarke, 1963 So, on Vortex-L we intentionally suspend the Skeptical attitude of those who believe in the classic "scientific method." While this does leave us open to the great personal embarrassment of falling for hoaxes and delusional thinking, we tolerate this problem in our quest to consider ideas and phenomena which would otherwise be rejected out of hand without a fair hearing. There are diamonds in the filth, and we see that we cannot hunt for diamonds without getting dirty. Note that skepticism of the openminded sort is perfectly acceptable on Vortex-L. The ban here is aimed at "hostile disbelief" and at the sort of Skepticism which rejects all that is not solidly proved true, while ignoring all new data and observations which conflict with widely accepted theory. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 14:00:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29569; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:52:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:52:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208161318.02ccc280 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:51:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"x5IUN3.0.tD7.KWLCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{If the samples cannot be equalized, then water is not one substance, >but many. That is incorrect. It might be one substance which responds in different ways to nonmaterial conditions such as temperature and vibrations. We already know this is the case: as Terry pointed out, water can be supercooled below 0 degrees. When you tap the bottle, the water crystallizes and forms ice. No material changes occur; it is the same substance before and after the phase change. The change is triggered by the energy of vibration, from tapping. You can take the very same water, melt it, cool it again and this time it may not supercool. I think the supercooling effect only works with quiescent water, which has not been stirred for hours, in which the molecules fall into a well known tetrahedral arrangement and stay that way. As I understand it, they have to re-arrange themselves to form ice, and sometimes they require a push. The Mpemba effect may be similar. It may also depend upon the shape of the container. I'm not saying the Mpemba effect is caused by energy levels, thermal stratification, or some other non material conditions, but it might be. We don't know yet, and we have no knowledge base on which to make an intelligent guess. Now, if this were happening with liquid helium, we would have a knowledge base and many solid theories to go by, but water is terra incognita. It is like the human brain: close at hand, common as dirt, but we know practically nothing about it yet. > In that case, every investigation which has been conducted in the >history of science that involved the comparison of a test cell to a >control, where the cells contained water, is invalidated: . . . In most investigations, the difference between the test and control is not significant, and it has no effect on the experiment. In all cases, the test cell and the control are different. There are no two objects in the universe which are precisely the same. At some level, there must be differences in impurities, mass, temperature, configuration and so on. >any differences >or lack thereof between the behavior of the experimental setup and the >control could have been due to differences, or the lack thereof, in the >"water." Of course that is always a possibility. Until you discover what is causing the experiment to act the way it does, and until you prove you have isolated the control factors, a result might always be due to differences in materials, because no two samples of materials can ever be the same. And for that matter the differences might be caused by nonmaterial differences, such as the temperature or the electric charge of the two samples. > Bottom line: you have a choice between ripping the guts out of the >structure of human knowledge, or simply admitting that you were wrong. I >suggest that you do the latter. --MJ}*** If the structure of human knowledge depends upon our understanding water, then human knowledge hardly exists. But this story is about experiments, not theories, or the grand structure of knowledge. There is no "wrong" here. The Mpemba effect is real. There's no doubt about it. Extensive studies have been conducted to isolate the control factors, and to find out whether the effect is caused by material differences, such as gas in the water, or by non material differences such as the arrangement of water molecules in the liquid which might cause differences in thermal stratification and cooling rates. At this stage, we do not know what causes the effect, and there is no way you or anyone else can predict a priori where the answer lies. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 14:09:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA01232; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:58:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:58:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:57:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207211318.03036628 earthtech.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kN1DA2.0.7J.kbLCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Scott Little wrote: > Bearden replied to my efforts to get him to try Jed's suggestion of closing > the loop on his MEG device. I don't understand why he goes on like he does > but at least he finally admits that they're trying to close the loop: Here's something I noticed. Mr. Bearden hears Jed mention "experts on OU" and becomes angry because he himself is such an expert. But something was lost in translation. I think Jed meant "experts in the HISTORY of OU." In other words, if we don't know history, and also we refuse to consult experts in history, then we most probably will repeat the well-known errors of those who came before us. History is filled with failed OU projects. Isn't it the concensus of OU followers that, because the "walls of disbelief" are so high and vigilantly maintained, ONLY a non-secretive closed-loop demonstration will shatter those walls? I believe that Mr. Bearden thinks scientists are rational and that measurements will convince them. If he does, then his project very well might lead to nothing, and his ignorance of history (specifically of the history of the CF controversy) will be the cause. Jed doesn't need to know anything at all about curl-free A-vectors to be able to stress the importance of closed-loop operation, he only needs to know what sort of things ruined unorthodox scientific discoveries of the past. On the other hand, if Mr. Bearden started manufacturing a RELIABLE product that saved 10 or 20 percent on the operation of large electrical loads, then he could go the way of Griggs and his turbine company: business success but without changing the beliefs of any scientist. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 14:13:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02501; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:02:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:02:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yxzD31.0.sc.WfLCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace The skin effect I am aware of causes resistance to increase at higher frequencies because the current is concentrated in the skin of the conductor, and R=pho*l/A. The A gets smaller at high frequencies. Hank On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 6:57 PM 12/7/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >George Holz wrote: > > > >>Many modern RF power meters work this way. An HP unit I purchased > >>recently operates by balancing an electrical bridge circuit containing > >>thermistors to compare the input RF power to the known DC power. > > > >Can this possibly be affected by spikes? Can it "miss" some of the power > >because the spike is too quick? I do not see how. That would seem to be > >physically impossible -- which is the point of the design, I suppose. > > > Yes, spikes can mostly pass right past a load resistor, if they are fast > enough, due to the skin effect. As the frequency goes up more and more of > the energy of the pulse is carried not in the conductor (or resistor) but > in the space around the conductor. That fraction of energy not carried in > the resistor can heat the air, etc., around the resistor to some extent, > but the effective resistance will change with frequency, and thus the power > drawn off in the form of heat will change with frequency. I would expect > the HP unit to be comparing rectified and smoothed AC to DC, not RF to DC > directly. Even then, sporadic pulses outside the designed frequency range > would be expected to not effectively heat the power measurement resistor. > > > Pulses that pass by load resistors have a way of "coming back" in the form > of a resonant oscillation. This can set up an artificially high current > measurement too. Attempts to measure phase angle are then sometimes > thwarted because the phase angle varies throughout each cycle, there being > no single phase angle. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 14:56:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11900; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:49:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:49:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208172735.02cd0df8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:48:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207211318.03036628 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZBsWb1.0.ov2.cLMCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: >Here's something I noticed. Mr. Bearden hears Jed mention "experts on OU" >and becomes angry because he himself is such an expert. > >But something was lost in translation. I think Jed meant "experts in the >HISTORY of OU." Actually, I wrote "in the opinion of all experts I have consulted." I did not say what they were expert in, but I had in mind experts in electricity like George Holtz, not necessarily people who know the history of o-u. But the point is well taken. Experts in the history of o-u will agree this test is essential. Actually, Bearden's response is a canard. It is nonsense. I'm not asking him to "close the loop" in the sense he describes, and I'm sure he realizes I am not. He is blustering to evade the issue for some suspicious reason, and he is not good at evading. I said intermediate storage and batteries or other devices would be perfectly OK. Corea claims that his device will not work with closed loop operation, and that is why he uses a battery pack. I do not understand the technical reasons for his claim, but I have no problem with battery packs, as long as the inventor is willing to run the machine a hundred times past limits on battery storage, without interruption. If he is claiming it is impossible to run the machine, store the energy in a battery, run it through a transformer, or in some other way eventually feed it back into the same machine (or into another Bearden machine next door), then he is saying there are two kinds of electricity in the universe, and his machine can distinguish between them. He is saying that the electricity he generates can be used for any purpose on Earth except to drive his own machine. That has to be the stupidest claim I have ever heard. Most people reading Bearden believe that is exactly what he means! No wonder they think he is a nut, or a crook. If he set out deliberately to give that impression he could not do a better job. >On the other hand, if Mr. Bearden started manufacturing a RELIABLE product >that saved 10 or 20 percent on the operation of large electrical loads, >then he could go the way of Griggs and his turbine company: business >success but without changing the beliefs of any scientist. That's true! There was a science fiction story with that plot. I thought it could never happen when I read it, but now we know better. On the other hand, it is easier to measure 20% excess electricity from a desktop generator than 20% excess heat from the 60 horsepower behemoth. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 14:56:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24502; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:52:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:52:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Accusation of fraud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xpcNH3.0.k-5.OOMCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Another recent message on vortex-L has been bugging me. The CF controversy teaches other valuable things besides the vast power of Consensus Disbelief. For example, it shows us the techniques which best work for the quashing of reasoned debate and the suppression of dissenting views. One powerful technique is to destroy reputations with baseless accusations of fraud. Once someone has accused a scientific team of fraud, colleagues will view that team with extreme distrust. The accusation itself is enough to do the job, and the victim is guilty until proven innocent. The current state of frontier science is similar to witch-hunts of every age. Depending on the era, you can destroy your neighbor by accusing him of being a witch, or a Jew, or a Commie, or a drug user. The Wright Brothers made no headway in the US and moved their project to France because major US publications polluted the pond with baseless accusations of fraud. Randi and CSICOP can silence any paranormal claims by duplicating them with stage magic techniques, which is a wordless and immensely powerful accusation of fraud based on no evidence at all. Huizinga (sp?) seriously damaged CF progress by making baseless accusations of fraud against Pons and Fleichman. He needed no evidence of fraud. The accusation was enough. Hostile skeptics can permanently silence any modern inventor who has a REAL o/u or antigravity device. Just accuse that inventor of running a scam. Fraud accusations are a debunkers technique. I don't believe I go too far if I say that most Frontier researchers regard baseless accusations of fraud to be a tool of pure evil. In his Dec 5 message, Jones Beene says this of Bearden's device: > AHA. Now it is becoming clearer. Your open system COP=10 must derive > well over 90% of its energy output from an extraneous source outside the > MEG itself!!! > > What perchance would this source be? A hidden battery under the table? A > directed transmitter. A radioactive isotope? > Mr. Bearden, your remarks thus far are misleading, self-serving and reek > of an attempt to perpetrate a fraud upon potential investors. If you have evidence of fraud, then go to the authrities. Real fraud certainly exists. But if you have suspicions but no evidence, then I suggest you give some thought to the power a baseless accusation of fraud carries with it, and the sort of personal ethics one must have in order to use such a weapon. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 15:14:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15037; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:07:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:07:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A316CBC.92D3F940 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:20:28 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 08, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LTbTt3.0.rg3.pcMCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: December 8, 2,000 Vortex, You know, I've speculated/fantasized about the bomb possibility ever since reading about P&F's lab explosion before their famous announcement in March 23, 1989. It seems others thought along similar lines. Hell of a way to get funding for CF if true. But then, that's how intense nuclear studies and development really got initiated and accelerated in the first place wasn't it? :) Interesting times are really getting more interesting. -AK- -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Dec 08, 2000 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:07:55 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 8 Dec 00 Washington, DC 1. COLD FUSION: THE "PALLADIUM BOMB" AND OTHER FANTASIES. There are highly-classified intelligence warnings circulating among federal agencies that certain rogue nations are planning to use "cold fusion" to make a terrorist bomb. This comes from an old speculation by Martin Fleischmann, based on what he thought was going on in Pons' lab. But why now, years later? The answer lies in the intense PR campaign waged by believers to convey the impression that cold fusion has become respectable. Even "Science and Government Report," a Washington newsletter, writes: "Cold fusion may be wearing down opponents in the science mainstream." Well, not exactly. The newsletter cites the fact that the APS allows CF sessions at its meetings, but the APS has always accepted all contributed papers. This leads to some nutty sessions, but it's preferable to censorship. 2. RUSH: NO MORE DELAY; DELAY: NO MORE RUSH. One month after the election it's official. Physicist Rush has been designated the winner in central New Jersey's 12th Congressional District and will return to his seat in the House. That trims the GOP majority to nine, making bipartisanship virtually the only escape from gridlock. That hasn't stopped Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-TX) from threatening a conservative onslaught next year, much to the dismay of Republican moderates. Expecting a more friendly Bush White House, DeLay also promises to block any attempt to rush through the remaining four appropriations bills, if it means striking deals with the present lame duck occupant. His plan: freezing spending on those accounts, with a year-long continuing resolution. And what if President Clinton refuses to sign? "If he wants to shut down the government, that's his problem, not ours," DeLay said. No sharp student of history, he. The big loser would be NIH, which would forfeit its 15 percent increase. 2. FUN AND GAMES IN EARTH ORBIT. Claiming that reentry of failed Iridium communications satellites "might cause widespread anxiety," the Pentagon has stepped in to keep the system aloft. Conveniently enough, this also eases the burden on their own overloaded network. The Pentagon's negotiated calling plan includes unlimited airtime for $3 million a month. (But do they get voicemail with that?) And more dubious reasoning was apparent this week at a forum addressing the International Space Station's mission. NASA's Dan Goldin emphasized that the primary purpose is to figure out how people can live and work safely in space, saying "You could never justify the space station by what it brings back to earth." But Science Committee Chair Sensenbrenner (R-WI) said he uses exactly these tech-transfer spin-offs to sell the program to suspicious constituents. Huh? (Christina Hood contributed to this week's WN.) THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 15:47:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22451; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:45:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:45:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:52:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 08, 2000] Resent-Message-ID: <"PxDYw3.0.jU5.aANCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:20 PM 12/8/0, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 8 Dec 00 Washington, DC > >1. COLD FUSION: THE "PALLADIUM BOMB" AND OTHER FANTASIES. There >are highly-classified intelligence warnings circulating among >federal agencies that certain rogue nations are planning to use >"cold fusion" to make a terrorist bomb. This comes from an old >speculation by Martin Fleischmann, based on what he thought was >going on in Pons' lab. But why now, years later? The answer lies >in the intense PR campaign waged by believers to convey the >impression that cold fusion has become respectable. What PR campaign would that be? Gene Mallove's letter to the president? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 16:49:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17781; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:47:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:47:52 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 11:47:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A3065F9.20B52423 pobox.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA17701 Resent-Message-ID: <"oaFAi3.0.fL4.t4OCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:18:19 -0600: [snip] >higher temperature which is not next to an external heat source? The >answer: nobody. The implication: if the Mpemba effect describes an anomaly, >it must claim that two samples of water which differ solely in that one has >been brought down to a temperature nearer to freezing than the other, must >sometimes result in the higher temperature sample freezing before the lower >temperature sample. But that is palpable nonsense: if conditions other than [snip] Hi Mitchell, It is only palpable nonsense if the containers are closed. If they are open, then the hot container can rapidly lose water through evaporation, and if this water is a reasonable percentage of the total, then it can end up with significantly less mass than the cold water started off with, by the time it reaches the same temperature. This lower mass may then freeze faster than the initial sample of cold water, because if has an increased ratio of surface area to volume. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 17:41:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31979; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:40:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:40:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:38:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"z62C41.0.Vp7.vrOCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{I will post a detailed and hopefully polite response to Bill's remarks > later today. For the moment, however, I cannot resist noting that calling > an idea "totally bogus utter nonsense" is in no sense an attack on a > person. Correct. This is not a flamewar issue. This is about my purposes behind Vortex-L, and what sorts of behavior I intend to censor. Vortex-L has never been a free communication channel, and freedom of speech is not a guaranteed right here. Instead it is a dictatorship, where the rule that stands above all others is "under my roof, everyone plays by my rules." We'll discuss this further in the next message. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 18:16:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11676; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:14:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:14:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3A319544.93504073 informatics.net> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 20:13:24 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6@pacbell.net> <3A31226D.6934472E@informatics.net> <3a322c0b.990789797@mail.midiowa.net> <3A31374A.A920F952@informatics.net> <005901c0615b$aa1428e0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BK6QY.0.Ms2.uLPCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi George, See comments in text- George Holz wrote: > Hi Jon, > You seem to have a really well equipped lab! Like Jones Beene I am shocked > by the results of your more sophisticated OU measurements on the MEG. I have > done > some work with flux gates and have never found them to be OU for what seemed > like > very good reasons. However, I never tried making measurements with nonlinear > loads. > Perhaps it is the nonlinear load and not the flux gate that is critical. This seems to be the case or possibly the combination of the two. > Is the MEG COP > 1 when driving a bridge rectifier with a capacitor filter, this > would > present a highly nonlinear load. Does it work with a back to back zener diode > load? I have not tried this as yet. > The ZNRs have a somewhat softer nonlinearity than the zeners, is this a critical > factor? At this point in time it seems to be. > I have designed highly efficient resonant down converters for high voltage > inputs. It should > be easy to close the loop with COP > 1.5 if you can get this in rectified DC > output from > the MEG. > You wrote: > >If one attempts to rectify and filter the output then provide conversion down > > to suitable levels for the switching power supply, the resulting power factor > of the > > filtering at the high voltage level will be so low that the COP required to > just overcome > > this could be as high as 5 or greater not counting converter losses. > - > I really don't understand this comment, the proper design should make this down > conversion very efficient. I would be happy to help in any way I can with the > design > to close the loop. Thanks for your offer as I'm open to any and all suggestions and am willing to try anything within reason! As to my comment above, let me try to explain my thots on this. If the high voltage outputs were supplying a rectifier/filter combo with a resistive load or converter connected, the MEG would 'see' a hard reactive load only at the peaks of the waveform which is quite different from the nonlinear load. The resulting current spikes would appear as low power factor "loads" to the MEG which they in fact would be. Intuitively, not experimentally because I haven't gotten that far yet, I feel this would be detrimental to the MEG producing COP>1. Therefore, I've reasoned that a method must be devised to utilize the nonlinear load characteristics in the down conversion process while producing the required DC power for the front end of the MEG. In other words, to the MEG, this would appear as a high PF load. I am taking a piecemeal approach in closing the loop around the device and as of the moment, I'm supplying half the input voltage for the drive circuits and primaries from one output of the MEG. The other half is supplied by a current limited bench supply. I will next add the output supply from the other side of the MEG but I must include some current limit scheme to prevent the possibilty of runaway if it is OU. I will try this "gunshot" approach before doing any further testing of various loads and conditions to simply see what we have! > > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 18:22:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13352; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:20:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:20:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208172735.02cd0df8 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pyCES3.0.YG3.1SPCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > If he is claiming it is impossible to run the machine, store the energy in > a battery, run it through a transformer, or in some other way eventually > feed it back into the same machine Or run it through a rotating shaft, temporarily store it in a flywheel or tank of compressed air, etc. > (or into another Bearden machine next > door), then he is saying there are two kinds of electricity in the > universe, and his machine can distinguish between them. He is saying that > the electricity he generates can be used for any purpose on Earth except to > drive his own machine. That has to be the stupidest claim I have ever > heard. Most people reading Bearden believe that is exactly what he means! I got the same impression. There *is* a story about such a thing, so Mr. Bearden isn't just pulling it out of the air. There is the story that the electrical output of Floyd Sweet's "VTA" could cool a resistor, freeze flesh, or light an incancescent bulb without putting out any IR. Mr. Bearden possibly witnessed these phenomena while working with Sweet. If they occur, then major parts of our model of physical reality are wrong. It would bring on some interesting times. But even if real, could such an "energy" survive conversion to mechanical energy? There is a non-zero chance that physics is different than we think, and Bearden has hold of the improved version. If so, then how could he ever win any modern scientist to his cause? I recently saw a good analogy in Michael Crichton's "Travels". Some contemporary aborigines who live separate from modern civilization are familiar with jets passing overhead, but do not believe that they are full of people, and no arguments can convince them. Their walls of disbelief cause them to go into denial. He suggests that the only option is to take them to the airport and let them see all details for themselves. I think Mr. Bearden needs to do the equivalent. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 19:22:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28494; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:21:02 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info (part deux) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 14:20:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3118B4.22A5B2E4@pacbell.net> <3A312EF7.8DDB2902@informatics.net> In-Reply-To: <3A312EF7.8DDB2902 informatics.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA28440 Resent-Message-ID: <"O4GQX2.0.1z6.UKQCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jon Flickinger's message of Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:56:55 -0600: [snip] >> Jon Flickinger wrote: >> >> > IMHO, it is a waste of time to attempt power measurements of the MEG standard >> > load resistors (that is, any linear resistive device) if one expects to see any >> > excess energy. The output loads must be resistive (non-reactive) and nonlinear. >> > The resistance must decrease with increasing voltage and the power must be >> > calculated from the output voltage and current. Hi Jon, There appears to a slight conflict with TB here. In one of his replies, he stated that he was using light bulbs as a load (if I'm not mistaken). However light bulbs tend to have the opposite characteristic. The resistance rises with the voltage rather than decreasing as you suggest is required, hereabove. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 19:40:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20769; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:27:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:27:33 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3A3065F9.20B52423 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:23:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"HEEeX3.0.K45.ZQQCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:18:19 -0600: >[snip] >>higher temperature which is not next to an external heat source? The >>answer: nobody. The implication: if the Mpemba effect describes an anomaly, >>it must claim that two samples of water which differ solely in that one has >>been brought down to a temperature nearer to freezing than the other, must >>sometimes result in the higher temperature sample freezing before the lower >>temperature sample. But that is palpable nonsense: if conditions other than >[snip] >Hi Mitchell, > >It is only palpable nonsense if the containers are closed. If they are open, >then the hot container can rapidly lose water through evaporation, and if >this water is a reasonable percentage of the total, then it can end up with >significantly less mass than the cold water started off with, by the time it >reaches the same temperature. This lower mass may then freeze faster than >the initial sample of cold water, because it has an increased ratio of >surface area to volume. ***{Hi Robin. Yes, if the containers are open you are correct, but the experimental design would then be flawed. While it is not a simple matter to ensure that *other things are equal*, it is easy to see that if they are, then the higher temperature sample must take longer to freeze than the lower temperature sample. On the other hand, if all the things known to science are equal except temperature, and we still get the effect, then ordinary water, in fact, must be "polywater." In that case, ordinary water is a mixture of substances unknown to science, and the proportion of the unknown substances differ in the two containers, with those that freeze more quickly being concentrated in the beaker with the higher initial temperature. In my view, the likelihood of this being the case is so low as to qualify for the appellation "totally bogus utter nonsense." :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 19:57:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA04640; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:54:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:54:30 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 14:53:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A3065F9.20B52423@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA04621 Resent-Message-ID: <"UAWte.0.Q81.spQCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:23:39 -0600: [snip] >***{Hi Robin. Yes, if the containers are open you are correct, but the >experimental design would then be flawed. While it is not a simple matter >to ensure that *other things are equal*, it is easy to see that if they >are, then the higher temperature sample must take longer to freeze than the >lower temperature sample. > >On the other hand, if all the things known to science are equal except >temperature, and we still get the effect, then ordinary water, in fact, >must be "polywater." In that case, ordinary water is a mixture of >substances unknown to science, and the proportion of the unknown substances >differ in the two containers, with those that freeze more quickly being >concentrated in the beaker with the higher initial temperature. In my view, >the likelihood of this being the case is so low as to qualify for the >appellation "totally bogus utter nonsense." :-) [snip] Funny that you should say this. It reminds me of a conversation I was having with Fred Sparber recently about LLs. It goes like this. LL's might be created in the upper atmosphere under the influence of EUV and x-rays from the sun. If they then become attached to water molecules (because the latter are polar), then they will partially cancel that polarisation, making the molecule overall less polar. That would in turn reduce the binding energy between the molecules, and lower the boiling point. So water molecules with attached LLs would be "first to leave" when water was heated. Now suppose that these molecules with attached LLs also lower the freezing point of water. Then the water that was heated in the Mpemba effect experiment would have lost more of it's LL bound molecules than the cold water, and hence would be more likely to freeze sooner (it would be missing more anti-freeze), all else being equal. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 20:01:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24061; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:58:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:58:45 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me - Instrument free designs Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 14:58:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA23991 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ii3XP.0.st5.qtQCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:31:11 -0900: >At 10:38 AM 12/8/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[snip] >>In the 1950s, Teller designed reactors with "inherent >>safety," meaning "its safety must be guaranteed by the laws of nature and >>not merely by the details of its engineering" - F. Dyson. General Atomics >>built prototype reactors with half the moderating hydrogen in the fuel >>rods. In actual demonstrations, when the reactors were deliberately put in >>uncontrolled runaway conditions, they shut down in milliseconds, much >>faster than any engineered design could ever achieve. > > >Why were these kinds of reactors not built? Perhaps they should be >reviewed again, in the present economic climate. At a rough guess, I would say that even under normal operating conditions, the hydrogen would tend to leak out of the rods, so that eventually the reactor would shut itself down (i.e. when it was supposed to be running). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 21:19:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01381; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:13:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:13:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: electrical conversion of AC at HV and different duty cycles Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"V3-y61.0.TL._zRCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I have certainly missed big parts of the discussion of conversion of test electric - magnetic systems' output from extant "power quality" to a more convetional "power quality". I am inveting the term "power quality", abbreviated PQ. An example of a "good PQ" might be 12 volts DC at 100 milliamperes with 5 percents ripple at a ripple frequency of between 1 k cps to 100 k cps. A "poor PQ" might be 1,200 VAC at 10 milliamperes at a frequency of 15 k cps and a duty cycle of 10 percents on and 90 percents off. To convert one to ther other is possible. This type of conversion is an example of real world power supply and power conditioning engineering. An efficient conversion might range from 65 percents to 80 percents. I solicit contributions, for the open forum, on methods of realizing conversions of the type described. There are certainly many ways to do this and, as example, I offer a rough discussion of one: Conversion: We are defining the incoming power to be converted as two wires from an inductor of some kind. A) The Incoming Power is conveyed to a steering diode with a recovery of 100 nsec and of the Controlled Avalanche, or CAv, type. One CAv diode is in each leg. The diodes are steering diodes and are between the IP and the first stage of conversion. The first stage is a 10 to 1 ratio step down transformer and is constructed to be ferro resonant with the IP and tuned with a capacitor. NOTE: There are other conversions which do not use inductors if this is required. B) The output of the 10 : 1 transformeter is conveyed to a Synchronous Rectifier using low resistance transistors such as IGBT, Insulated Gate Bipolar or Power MOSFET, or SIT, Static Induction Transistors or an appropriate pass element of another type. C) The SR output is provided with CAv in both legs and is conveyed to a swiched capacitor bank allowing for low load to the IP and subsequent charge manipulation to provide higher amperage output. NOTE: One or more of the techniques from above can be used alone, or in different order [s]. Example: Aa) IP is conveyed to steering CAv and then to synchronous low load capacitor stage. Ab) The low load capacitor stage is conveyed to CAv and then to synchronous charge manipulation for higher current and to another CAv. This second stage is applied to synchronous rectification, then to CAv and a third charge manipulation. If each stage is restrained to a 3.3:1 ratio current manipulation then there is very little loading of the IP and no inductive load or interaction issue. Ac) The total, to this point, of a 10:1 shift from 1,200 VAC to 120 VDC can be taken to 12 VDC by using further stages prior to SR or a combination of further capacitor and-or transformer stages. Ad) NOTE: After two stages of CAv steering diodes and synchronous switched capacitor charge manipulation, with CAv between each stage there is at least 60 dBel, or 1:1,000 isolation of the IP from a transformer, should the designer choose to use one. Using synchronous swiched capacitor techniques one could employ 3 phase or even 6 or 9 phase transformers so that inductor ripple is reduced, even to the point of greater that 1:1,000 ripple ratio. John PS: Uh.....sorry. I meant to be simple.... but power conversion is a wonderful exercise in real world guts. Big fun to do the un-doable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 21:24:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25647; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:17:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:17:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Not attack on Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8pnHO3.0.ZG6.i1SCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Vo., Did anyone bring up the thing about... If you heat or even boil water then there are fewer or no dissolved gasses and this then alters the freezing behavior of water? AND: Water is NOT simple stuff. On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > ***{I will post a detailed and hopefully polite response to Bill's remarks > > later today. For the moment, however, I cannot resist noting that calling > > an idea "totally bogus utter nonsense" is in no sense an attack on a > > person. > > Correct. This is not a flamewar issue. This is about my purposes behind > Vortex-L, and what sorts of behavior I intend to censor. Vortex-L has > never been a free communication channel, and freedom of speech is not a > guaranteed right here. Instead it is a dictatorship, where the rule that > stands above all others is "under my roof, everyone plays by my rules." > > We'll discuss this further in the next message. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 21:33:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28670; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:31:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: "Pathological" skepticism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"000oi1.0.l_6.YESCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>From Vortex-L rule #2. > > ***{If you intend to interpret the above as banning the use of words such > as "bogus," or "nonsense," or "ridiculous," or "absurd," etc., It's not the individual words, it's the overall action. Let me clarify. Jed presented a possible anomaly for discussion and perhaps experimental testing. You immediately adopted a position of disbelief clearly tinged with hostility, and have been arguing that there is no anomaly. You presented a list of reasons why the anomaly cannot exist. You exclusively argue against it, and present nothing in favor of it. Apparently you cannot see through the eyes of the opponent, and ascribe negative motivations. To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness. Your attitude towards others with differing opinion is not respectful. You accused Jed of believing in "polywater." To me that is clearly ridicule. You seem to see the anomaly, if real, as being a threat to science. Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add up to Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is something I try to take action against if I notice it appearing on Vortex-L. I intended this list to be a haven for anomaly investigation and anomaly testing. When an anomaly is presented, I want the group to essentially say: "Could this be real? Let's look closer." Those who don't wish to look closer can ignore the discussion. Those who look closer should endevour to find arguements both for and against the anomaly. If one person is CERTAIN that the anomaly is real, or another is CERTAIN that it is not, then closemindedness interferes with the discussion. Anyone who quickly adopts an unshakable stance of disbelief against a newly presented anomaly, and who attempts to convince others NOT to look closer, significantly interferes with the intellectual atmosphere of vortex-L which I hope to promote. I therefore issue a warning. This whole Pathological Skepticism issue has not appeared recently on Vortex-L. The majority of subscribers are "believer" types, not Skeptics. I have not said so recently, but I strongly suggest that vortex-L subscribers adopt a philosophy of "Provisional belief" regarding anomalies presented here for possible testing. I see disbelief as a continuing and major obstacle to investigation. Even openmindedness has its problems, therefore I recommend that we surrender our defenses and accept new anomalies as PROVISIONALLY being genuine. This counteracts our normal human tendency towards Pathological Skepticism and lets us examine BOTH sides of the issue with less prior bias. It keeps our attitudes mobile, so they don't get stuck in just one side of belief/disbelief, where they would color everything. > and give people the boot Give people the boot? If I wished to threaten you with expulsion, I would threaten. My message is a warning about improper behavior, as I choose to define "improper." Have you been thrown out of other lists? Here's more from the website: "Note that skepticism of the openminded sort is perfectly acceptable on Vortex-L. The ban here is aimed at "hostile disbelief" and at the sort of Skepticism which rejects all that is not solidly proved true, while ignoring all new data and observations which conflict with widely accepted theory." > >I think the rules are not quite clear > > ***{"Not quite clear" is an understatement, if you intend to justify > booting people out Who is booted out? And as for justification for my actions, I need none. I am an inconsistant, irrational human being who periodically takes unfair actions based only on gut feelings and without regrets or apology. I revel in my eeeeeevil. > and unsubstantiated gossip. Thus if you intend to rely on this sort of > strained interpretation to give me the boot, while posing as the defender > of the most out-of-control and unsavoy individual who posts here, then I > will go sailing out the door laughing, to put it mildly. --MJ}*** I am not posing as anything. I am acting as a dictator who arbitrarily makes the rules and sporadically enforces them at my own whim. I keep the rules in my head and only write some of them down. I inconsistantly ignore friends' transgressions while jumping on the same behavior in non-friends. Depending on my mood, sometimes I give warnings, sometimes I remove subscribers, with or without explanation. If you don't alter your course, what will I do? I don't know. Point out that you are behaving in a highly UN-vortexian manner, and that the great and powerful Bill Beaty has frowned. Harshly. > That is what you are doing right now, by the way: responding to my > substantive arguments with an ad hominem attack. That ploy is really old. You think I have a hidden agenda? I am not trying to "win" the competitive debate you've started about freezing water. Only experimentation can settle such issues. Here we have an opportunity to perform some simple experiments (or at the very least, look for papers about earlier research.) Instead this is derailed into argumentativeness. I see that we probably have a serious difference in philosophy. To get to the truth, do we choose sides and start a battle, and the outcome determines what is true? Or do we all join the SAME side of the fight, like the members on a mountainclimbing expedition? It's the COMPETITOR versus the COOPERATOR paradigm. As a long time "cooperator", I see your usual practice of setting up competitive debates as seriously flawed. You apparently see my attempts to impose Cooperation as being some sort of transparent ploy to win the competition. This may be akin to a Christian seeing an Aztec as being a flawed Christian, rather than as having valid but incompatible philosophy. However, Christians might refuse to allow Aztec sacrifice rituals in the Christian churches. > Then let's hear some substantive arguments to that effect, > rather than a continuation of this disingenuous effort to reinvent the > rules. --MJ}*** My rules have not varied much over the years of operation here. You're encountering old rules, and my inconsistant policing of this list. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 21:37:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA30278; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:35:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:35:16 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:41:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: William Beaty cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Real world account ... Accusation of fraud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"M1P97.0.xO7.JISCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., A real world account: During my personal investigation of Gravity Modification, abbreviated GM using a "high temperature" super conductor, of Yttrium Barium Copper Oxide 1,2,3 or YBCO. I was lucky enough to have a film unit from German Public TV come by to visit me. They were able to catch the following events on video and they read the measurements from the instruments themselves. A GM of 2 percents, negative ....meaning the target samples became lighter, as measured by a scale. The scale was a little over six (6) feet from the Dewar flask used to cool the experiment. a] glass target b] non magnetic metal target c] scale by weight ... meaning a non magnetic metal target made from 4 US 25 cent coins was used, weighing about 22 grams and it showed a GM, negative of about 2 percents. Then 4 more 25 cent coins were added, for a weight of about 44 grams and the GM negative was still about 2 percents. This did not and does not matter because most of the writing and news stories by other media say the effect does not work. This can happen to any investigator, at any time. Many of the print stories I have read regarding GM by YBCO have one or more plain factual errors, before you get anywhere near to an opinion by the author about if the effect works... or does not. It is difficult and expensive work. It is very easy for any prospective funding entity to say "The literature claims the effect does not work". There are virtually ZERO persons willing to stick their neck out to get their head chopped off ... by even TALKING about it... much less pony up a pile of cash. But.... I still like the work, and if I could afford it, I would be right back at it. John Herman Schnurer On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, William Beaty wrote: > > Another recent message on vortex-L has been bugging me. > > The CF controversy teaches other valuable things besides the vast power of > Consensus Disbelief. For example, it shows us the techniques which best > work for the quashing of reasoned debate and the suppression of dissenting > views. > > One powerful technique is to destroy reputations with baseless accusations > of fraud. Once someone has accused a scientific team of fraud, colleagues > will view that team with extreme distrust. The accusation itself is > enough to do the job, and the victim is guilty until proven innocent. The > current state of frontier science is similar to witch-hunts of every age. > Depending on the era, you can destroy your neighbor by accusing him of > being a witch, or a Jew, or a Commie, or a drug user. > > The Wright Brothers made no headway in the US and moved their project to > France because major US publications polluted the pond with baseless > accusations of fraud. > > Randi and CSICOP can silence any paranormal claims by duplicating them > with stage magic techniques, which is a wordless and immensely powerful > accusation of fraud based on no evidence at all. > > Huizinga (sp?) seriously damaged CF progress by making baseless > accusations of fraud against Pons and Fleichman. He needed no evidence of > fraud. The accusation was enough. > > Hostile skeptics can permanently silence any modern inventor who has a > REAL o/u or antigravity device. Just accuse that inventor of running a > scam. > > Fraud accusations are a debunkers technique. I don't believe I go too far > if I say that most Frontier researchers regard baseless accusations of > fraud to be a tool of pure evil. > > > > In his Dec 5 message, Jones Beene says this of Bearden's device: > > > AHA. Now it is becoming clearer. Your open system COP=10 must derive > > well over 90% of its energy output from an extraneous source outside the > > MEG itself!!! > > > > What perchance would this source be? A hidden battery under the table? A > > directed transmitter. A radioactive isotope? > > > > Mr. Bearden, your remarks thus far are misleading, self-serving and reek > > of an attempt to perpetrate a fraud upon potential investors. > > > If you have evidence of fraud, then go to the authrities. Real fraud > certainly exists. But if you have suspicions but no evidence, then I > suggest you give some thought to the power a baseless accusation of fraud > carries with it, and the sort of personal ethics one must have in order to > use such a weapon. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 8 21:54:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01502; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:52:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:52:50 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:58:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Bill Beatty ...Re: "Pathological" skepticism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"N_Uan.0.LN.oYSCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Opinion Bill Beatty get 3 "Y Bs" You bad You bad You bad HB Him bad From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 01:47:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13108; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:45:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:45:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:59:28 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mpemba: "parable against snap judgements" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"gcyJl3.0.fC3.-yVCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I say that we should look into this phenomenon, and that snap judgements about its impossiblity interfere. OK, so I actually SEARCHED for Mpemba papers and found: http://www.weburbia.com/physics/hot_water.html Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counter- intuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real. It has been seen and studied in numerous experiments. While this phenomenon has been known for centuries, and was described by Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes [1-3], it was not introduced to the modern scientific community until 1969, by a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba. Both the early scientific history of this effect, and the story of Mpemba's rediscovery of it, are interesting in their own right -- Mpemba's story in particular provides a dramatic parable against making snap judgements about what is impossible. This is described separately below. The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect. Because, no doubt, most readers are extremely skeptical at this point, we should begin by stating precisely what we mean by the Mpemba effect. 5. Mpemba and Osborne, Phys. Educ., "Cool," v.4, p.172-5 (1969) 6. Ahtee, Phys. Educ., "Investigation into the Freezing of Liquids," v.4, p.379-80 (1969) 7. Firth I, Phys. Educ., "Cooler?," v.6, p.32-41 (1979) 8. Deeson E, Phys. Educ., "Cooler-lower down," v.6, p.42-44 (1971) 9. Osborne, "Mind on Ice," v.14, p.414-17 (1979) 10. Freeman M, "Cooler Still," v.14, p.417-21 (1979) 11. Kell G S, "The Freezing of Hot and Cold Water," v.37, #5, p.564-5, May 1969 12. Auerbach D, "Supercooling and the Mpemba effect: When hot water freezes quicker than cold," v.63, #10, p.882-5, Oct 1995 13. Walker J, "The Amateur Scientist," Sci. Am., v.237, #3, p.246-7, Sept. 1971 14. Wojciechowski B, "Freezing of Aqueous Solutions Containing Gases," Cryst. Res. Technol., v.23, #7, p.843-8 (1988) Other stuff: http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatrf.html#mpemba Knight, Charles A., The Mpemba Effect: The Freezing Times of Hot and Cold Water, Letter in Am J Phys, Vol 64, May 1996, p524 Auerbach, David, Supercooling and the Mpemba Effect: When Hot Water Freezes Faster Than Cold, Am J Phys. 63, 882-885, (1995) Dorsey, N.E., Am. Philos. Soc. 38, 247-328, (1948). Dorsey, N.E., The Properties of Ordinary Water Substance, Reinhold, Scranton, PA., (1940). http://www.cwr.uwa.edu.au/cwr/publications/papers/748.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 01:49:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA16482; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:48:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:48:29 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [4.48.209.218] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Flux gates in parralel Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 01:09:14 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2000 07:09:14.0692 (UTC) FILETIME=[F01BA040:01C061AE] Resent-Message-ID: <"U9sX71.0.H14.i_VCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all those playing with versions of the MEG and other flux-gate type devices Has anyone tried various series/parallel combinations of coils?? The way I understand it, two parallel sets of coils, each set being two series connected coils, would, if magnetically isolated from each other, be seen by an external coil in all ways as the same as a single coil identical to any of the four coils but producing twice the number of amp-turns. question is, what happens if they aren't magnetically isolated?? seems this might be a way to improve the flux-gate design. then again I could be full of sh**. Merlyn _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 02:15:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA00517; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:14:19 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:20:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Yes...existance of EV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_lots2.0.w7.wNWCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, If you ever get to see one of these little balls Bounce off the wall of a tube... and go slow enough to sense its passage...actually SEE it take the time to get here to there...well I got the little hirs lifted on my front arm. On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:27 AM 12/9/0, John Schnurer wrote: > > > I think I went along one day a began to count Ken's different > >methods he gifted us with in his patent disclosures and other papers... I > >sort of quit at 30 or 40 ... > > > > J > > When referring to "mechanism" of EV formation that means the electrodynamic > mechanism of formation, not the device itself. Shoulders had many devices > but all were based on the concept that a tiny ball of condensed negative > charge, say 10^8 electrons, could be formed at the sharp high field > density tip of a pointed cathode. The recent experiments may document > interesting phenomena, but none that I have seen preclude the observed > effects being from leader initated sparks. There is no reason to think a > leader can not penetrate a very thin dielectric, for example. A thick > dielectric prevents the "EV's" from leaving the cathode, even though their > formation time is a fraction of the time for light to travel to the anode > and back. It would be very beneficial to Ken's case if the existence of > EV's could be conclusively proven. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 02:41:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA11800; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:42 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:27:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: existance of EV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a2-Ow1.0.Cu2.fmWCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Ken has been very good to us all. He teaches MANY ways to make his CCs. First, remember back to the beginning wirk on cathode rays and the early... say 20 or 30 years of 'em ... cathode ray tubes... I do NOT mean CRT display tubes as in a TV or computer exclusively. I mean many many tube designs... often with the anode NOT bein in line with the cathode. Remember some of these designs... and some of what Ken teaches... and in general open the thought channels: Ken teaches... as one method.... having a sharp cathode on one side of a dielectric, the "top" face ...... on the side, the bottom face, is an anode. The whole thing is in a tube. NOW: If such a thing was in low pressure neon ... you can have nice plasma. AND: Remember the xenon medium pressure flash tube. The trigger electrode that CAUSES ionization is on the outside of the glass tube. To continue: In some laboratory designs electrodes are placed on the outside of a gas discharge tube and the gas inside the tube is ionized. This is not like hooking up an incandescent lamp. Many high and medium pressure mercury lamps the exciting electrode is outside the lamp ... the lamp envelopes are thick. Some Plasma tubes which give off light and in some cases quite high power light have no electrodes in them! some use Radio Frequency... some use DC some use microwave. I think I went along one day a began to count Ken's different methods he gifted us with in his patent disclosures and other papers... I sort of quit at 30 or 40 ... J On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:27 AM 12/8/0, thomas malloy wrote: > >>Scott Little wrote; > >> > >>In spite of all this negative evidence, I would jump on the EV > >>bandwagon instantly if somebody would just show me an experiment > >>that PROVED their existence. I have spent some time considering > >>such an experiment and have not come up with anything workable yet. > >> > >>Any ideas out there? > >> > >I understood that when you energize the needle shaped electrode, > >described in KS's patents in the appropriate atmosphere you get a > >steady stream on donut shaped plasma vortexed shooting at the target. > >Are you telling me that this is not so? > > > A "doughnut shaped plasma" does not meet Ken Shoulder's definition of "EV" > because plasma is neutral and EV's are said to consist of electrons with > possibly one positive particle. The ratio of negative to positive charge > is said to be huge. In fact, it is this large ratio that provides the > anomaly, the possibility of violation of COE. > > > > >I understood that this was a > >straight forward process. I also understood that the metal used to > >seed the EV's which is injected in the area between the end of the > >needle electrode and the sheath was sucked into the EV's . In KS's > >paper on the website, I understood him to say that when the metal in > >the melted area on the target is analyzed, it has an odd isotopic > >ratio indicating fusion events. > > Even if true, this is not evidence for EV's, only of LENR. > > One of the major problems with Shoulders' theory is he describes a > mechanism for generating EV's that is centered only at the cathode, yet a > current path to an anode is required to generate an EV. If you impose a > dielectric barrier, then the supposed EV's are not emitted. A small anode > foil placed on top of the barrier does permit a brief current flow, > provided the capacitance to ground from the foil is large enough to bear > the leader current, but this is just another form of current path to > ground. If Shoulder's theory were correct, then no completed leader-like > mechancism would be involved because there is not sufficient time for a > leader to form. The EV would be gone from the cathode before it could > "know" there was a dielectric in front of the anode. The EV would be > perfectly capable of being emitted toward a dielectric covered anode. This > does not happen, so the theory is wrong. I can dig up my experiment notes > on this in a week or so, if this is important enough. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 02:42:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA11781; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:41 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:45:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jon Flickinger cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Power conditioning methodologies and .... MEG In-Reply-To: <3A31374A.A920F952 informatics.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-ISy72.0.-t2.emWCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, I am going to cut part of this letter to get to the part regarding what can and cannot be accomplished using modern day, well known and accepted power conditioning. There are also a host of well known and mature semiconductor pass elements and other components designed to operate with voltages and currents FAR beyond the magnitudes and time variations presented by MEG as it is described to date. On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jon Flickinger wrote: > Hi Dean,> > See inserted text below- > "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:03:25 -0600, Jon Flickinger > > wrote: > > >Jones Beene wrote: > > >> With all due respect, John, isn't this statement a total cop-out > (or should I say > >> COP-out)? > >> If you really believe what you just wrote - Please explain very > specifically why the > >> MEG with COP=5 (or 10, or whatever is the > current delusion-de-jour) cannot be > >> operated in a self-powered > mode? Please try to do this without impugning my > >> inability to > understand the fineries of open-system, closed system or whatever. ------ cut ----- > > I fail to see what the problem could be. > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) I will discuss, briefly, and point by point, some methodologies for power conditioning. Please note there are MANY variations beyond these general ones described, below. In the past 8 years there has been a tremendous series of advances in power conditioning as available to the "on-the-bench-designer" many of these advances were mature 20 and more years ago for use in space and undersea. Now nearly anyone can design with these benefits. ----- Discussion ----- 1] > Basically you are correct but the difficulty lies in the high voltages > one has to deal with 1,000 volt semiconductors are commonly available. Methodologies and circuits using this genre of semiconductor can and do handle 20,000 volts. plus, the power conversion circuit must also > provide this conversion on a cycle by cycle basis with a high power > factor similar to high power factor inputs in power supplies only in > reverse. It is common to operate in synchronous cycle-by-cycle power conditioning at 1,000,000 cps on non sinusoidal and on sine waveforms. If one attempts to rectify and filter the output then provide > conversion down to suitable levels for the switching power supply, Levels of and for and to 40 volts to 600 volts and beyond are commonly operated on with unity power factor..... with current and voltage in phase. >the resulting power factor of the filtering at the high voltage level We can and do build high voltage conversion systems allowing us to control plus and minus 6,000 volts as simply as an operational amplifier to 30,000 cps as off-the-shelf. And systems with custom performance leads to 50 nano second rise and fall times at 10,000 volts and amperages beyond 1,000. will be so low that the COP required to just overcome this could be as high > as 5 or greater not counting converter losses. An interesting problem > but one I believe can be achieved. The issues which are seen as "standing in the way" have not been doing so for decades. We can and did handle levels such as there in WWII with vacuum tubes. In the times of putting a man on the moon we were FAR beyond these levels. With capabilities of today's components this type of power conditioning is not difficult. We can and do put out power controllers, off-the-shelf, rated at 30,000 watts that fit in one hand...easily. > > Regards, > > Jon Flickinger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 02:43:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA11739; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 02:40:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:50:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stirling engine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tgn4a2.0.It2.cmWCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Where can we get these gizmos? On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Scott Little's message of Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:13:42 -0600: > > >Gnorts, > > > >I just took delivery of the coolest physics toy to come along in quite some > >time. It's a Stirling engine that will run off the heat of your hand....a > >4 degree C delta-T to be exact. > [snip] > Hi Scott, > > How well does it run if placed in direct sunlight with the bottom plate > resting in a basin of water? > (And how much power does it develop?) > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 03:15:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA18541; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:11:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:11:24 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:06:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: 'Skeptical' attack on Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"52QNC1.0.cX4.RDXCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into the freezer. Therefore, the eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so the water with the most initial eddy currents is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples are not the same system when at the same temperature. One has greater kinetic energy than the other and therfore a greater cooling rate. Which wins depends on numerous considerations. Another consideration is that the thermostat triggering rate is affected by warm air ciculating from the warmer sample. This causes longer refrigerant pump cycles and thereby drops the temperature of the metallic walls and cooling coils of the compartment below normal by increasing the difference in temperature between the thermostat in the interior air and the coils. The lower wall temperature causes faster freezing, if the samples are placed in contact with the freezer walls. If the cold water is not placed in at the same time the hot sample will freeze faster. Also, the longer duty cycles will cool the refrigerator compartment, if there be such. This reduces the thermal load on the wall closest to the refrigerator compartment, often the bottom of the freezer, and this will speed the freezing of anything placed there. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 03:17:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA19697; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:15:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:06:37 -0900 To: John Schnurer From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: existance of EV Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ms7Ox.0.gp4.OHXCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 2:27 AM 12/9/0, John Schnurer wrote: > I think I went along one day a began to count Ken's different >methods he gifted us with in his patent disclosures and other papers... I >sort of quit at 30 or 40 ... > > J When referring to "mechanism" of EV formation that means the electrodynamic mechanism of formation, not the device itself. Shoulders had many devices but all were based on the concept that a tiny ball of condensed negative charge, say 10^8 electrons, could be formed at the sharp high field density tip of a pointed cathode. The recent experiments may document interesting phenomena, but none that I have seen preclude the observed effects being from leader initated sparks. There is no reason to think a leader can not penetrate a very thin dielectric, for example. A thick dielectric prevents the "EV's" from leaving the cathode, even though their formation time is a fraction of the time for light to travel to the anode and back. It would be very beneficial to Ken's case if the existence of EV's could be conclusively proven. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 05:31:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA17438; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:26:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:26:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 07:28:09 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Stirling engine In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072633.02ad5318 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: Resent-Message-ID: <"zV70p.0.LG4.3CZCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:50 AM 12/9/2000 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: >Where can we get these gizmos? from http://www.smallparts.com or directly from http://www.stirlingengine.com Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 06:07:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25593; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:04:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:04:27 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:11:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Yes...existance of EV Resent-Message-ID: <"l6Jqn2.0.pF6.hlZCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:20 AM 12/9/0, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Folks, > > > If you ever get to see one of these little balls Bounce off the >wall of a tube... and go slow enough to sense its passage...actually SEE >it take the time to get here to there...well I got the little hirs lifted >on my front arm. I have seen stuff like that in the prescribed xenon flash tubes. However, many of those tubes are coated with a transparent conductive coating and the discharge can simply be a drifting plasma discharge point capacitively coupled to the (invisible) conducitve coating. The problem is proving that what you see is acutally condensed charge and not plasma. It is either scientific proof that is critical to obtaining funds for investigation and development, or a viable product of some kind. Yes, there are many gadgets to play with, but none I have seen provide any kind of proof of the fundamental principle his work is founded upon, and that is the existence of condensed charge. Everything I have seen to date has an altrnative explanation, and despite the obviously large amount of related work there are no products. I would very much like to see uncontrovertable proof of the existence of condensed charge, because that, like a good cheap repeatable CF experiment, would really get things moving. With all the surprising and novel conventional work being done on BECs etc., you would think there would not be a strong mindset against the existence of EV's, yet the reproducible PROOF is for some reason not publicly forthcoming. Yes there are many interesting and fun and possibly anomalous related things to do, but these provide no proof of the fundamental existence of the hypothesized EV, i.e. condensed charge. I think that is the issue at hand, what can be done to provide proof? If a self sustaining device can be built and easily replicated all over the world, or some useful product engineered and distributed, then it really doesn't matter to that effort if they exist or not. Otherwise, reproducible scientific proof is key. How do we obtain it? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 06:07:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26128; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:07:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:07:06 -0800 Message-ID: <006601c061e9$4bbe2280$ef85fea9 ValuedSonyCustomer> From: "David Jonsson" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072633.02ad5318@earthtech.org> Subject: Air-drag reduction references Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:06:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nT_fO.0.1O6.9oZCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Have you seen this ? http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns226242 It is about how to reduce air-drag with plasma technology. See also Paul R. Hill Unconventional Flying Objects Chapter XIII Silent Supersonic Operation Article "Northrop studying sonic boom remedy." Aviation Week & Space Technology, Jan 22, 1968, p. 21 Jean Naudins work http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/B2proj.htm Not available! Where is it? Are there more info regarding this? I feel like we are in front of a revolution in avionics. We could with this technology commute Europe America in one hour to a fraction of the price we have today. To commute on a weekly or daily basis might become possible. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 06:57:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA03972; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:57:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:57:15 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:04:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: An couple EV challenges Resent-Message-ID: <"4k2Pt1.0.-z.AXaCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. EV paths, especialy those made to the EV waveguide specifications of Shoulders' patents, can carry EV's a very long ways, many centimeters. EV's when they explode, or even when travelling, are very disruptive, capable of ripping or widening holes in ceramics, etc., so it should be comparatively easy to obtain trace evidence of their travels, without use of metal witness plates. Also, if a large fast moving charge moves through the doughnut hole of a toroidal coil it will produce a pulse, so detecting the EV electronically should also be feasible. After the passage and disruption of the EV a large negative surface charge is left in the apparatus, so obtaing a repeatable cycle involves removal of the surface charge, which can sometimes be accomplshed by subsequently inducing a neutrlizing plasma via HF AC discharge. So, here is a good initial challenge, CHALLENGE 1: produce an easily replicated device or manufacture and distribute a device that produces EV trace evidence, and which has no conductive path to the anode. Punching a path to the anode through a thin dielectric layer does not count! Here is another challenge, CHALLENGE 2: create a self sustainging EV tube ring. I spent many hours attempting this. I could get 4 of 5 tubes to discharge the little EV like discharges in series, and also do this with the tubes separated with 20 kV diodes, or diodes plus small HV capacitors, but I could never close the loop and keep the discharge going, or extend the chain of tubes indefinitely. An EV exploding on an anode should produce a much more energetic pulse than that which created it, so a self-sustaining ring should be feasible, as well as an arbitrarily long chain of tubes, or even branching tube paths, where one tube at the root of a tree is initally stimulated and branching occurs indefinitely so hundreds or thousands of tubes fire in parallel at the end of a tree of tubes. If you can get branching to occur, then you have the key to building practical power generating devices. Also, only one limb (or a few limbs in parallel) of the tree is then required to be fed back to the root to achieve a self-sustaining device. I achieved small branching trees of tubes also, but could not close the loop or extend the tree indefinitely or get more out than was put in. The tips of the tbe tree can be fed into diodes and to a capacitor to accumulate charge for a second round, but that charge, for me, was not sufficient to initiate a second round. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 07:07:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06947; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:07:08 -0800 Message-ID: <001f01c061f3$49718ee0$d079add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <003301c060bc$5804c680$807aadd1 mikejohnston> <3A308620.33B@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Chemtrails? Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:13:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"DNv6H1.0.Pi1.SgaCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: yes, you're right. mj ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 1:56 AM Subject: Re: Chemtrails? > Michael Johnston wrote: > > I don't know anything about chemtrails; so, I have snipped it. > > > One other thing, they say over 50% of the arctic ice cap has > > melted. Where did it go? The rise in the world sea level certainly > > isn't proportonate to the melting of that amount of ice. Maybe it's up > > in space. > > Melting of the Artic ice will cause no increase in ocean levels because > that ice was floating. It was not connected to land like in the > Antartic. Your cocktail glass will not overflow when the ice melts even > if filled to the brim. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 07:25:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12393; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:25:04 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:24:48 EST Subject: Re: Air-drag reduction references To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: david bahnhof.se MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_be.d09ea8e.2763a8c0_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: Unknown sub 10002 Resent-Message-ID: <"MuyK23.0.Z13.GxaCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_be.d09ea8e.2763a8c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 09/12/00 15:07:55 Paris, Madrid, david bahnhof.se= a=20 =E9crit : > Jean Naudins work http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/B2proj.htm > Not available! Where is it? >=20 The correct link is now : http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/B2proj.htm Regards Jean-Louis Naudin --part1_be.d09ea8e.2763a8c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 09/12/00 15:07:55 Paris, Madrid, david bahnhof.s= e a
=E9crit :


Jean Naudins work http://me= mbers.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/B2proj.htm
Not available! Where is it?


The correct link is now :  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/B2proj.htm

Regards

Jean-Louis Naudin --part1_be.d09ea8e.2763a8c0_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:01:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21168; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:00:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:00:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:01:38 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209085504.02acdd28 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001206114206.03a6daa0 earthtech.org> <3A2E5F3F.AE50765D pacbell.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205150924.02da03f0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206092530.02ca5938 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001206114206.03a6daa0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"-iYZs2.0.gA5.DSbCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:27 AM 12/8/2000 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >I understood that when you energize the needle shaped electrode, described >in KS's patents in the appropriate atmosphere you get a steady stream on >donut shaped plasma vortexed shooting at the target. Are you telling me >that this is not so? The "normal" arrangement is to apply a fast rise-time pulse to the needle to get it to emit one (or more) EV's in a burst. In my experience, if you just apply the same voltage DC to the needle, it will not do anything. >I understood that this was a straight forward process. I also understood >that the metal used to seed the EV's which is injected in the area between >the end of the needle electrode and the sheath was sucked into the EV's. KS often wetted his needles with Hg. I've tried lots of different needle arrangements. The most important thing seems to be sharpness...which doesn't last long due to erosion during the spark discharge. > In KS's paper on the website, I understood him to say that when the > metal in the melted area on the target is analyzed, it has an odd > isotopic ratio indicating fusion events. I have real problems with this claim. However, I don't have the numbers in front of me. I'll get back to you on this one next week. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:11:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24522; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:10:24 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:12:23 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: EV size? X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FyYBW2.0.4_5.lbbCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the early days, KS claimed that an EV had 10^8 or 10^10 electrons in it. That's between 10^-11 and 10^-9 coulombs and is more-or-less consistent with the scale of the apparatus he used to generate them. In his recent paper http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Charge%20Clusters%20In%20Action.pdf or http://www.earthtech.org/ev/ccaction.pdf (same paper) on page 5, he says that an EV has Avogadro's number of electrons!!!!! That's 96,485 coulombs! To deliver that amount of charge in the ~100 nanoseconds that its supposed to take to form an EV would require a current of 10^12 amps! THAT beast would no doubt melt a hole through ceramic. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:24:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29350; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:24:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:24:23 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:26:08 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209101917.02af7fa8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"evVlS1.0.SA7.sobCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 06:04 AM 12/9/2000 -0900, you wrote: >In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly >high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV >chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. hmmmm. Horace, I appreciate your concern that interposing an insulator between the needle and the anode stops the phenomenon completely...but how can you expect to make current flow in the EV-generating circuit (so that an EV will form) when you eliminate the conductive path of the circuit? This seems kinda impossible. hmmm2. Maybe it could be done capacitively. Instead of applying a pulse to the needle, let's apply a fast rise-time voltage to the needle and leave the voltage on indefinitely. That would then create a DC electric field between the needle and the fully insulated anode and now it DOES seem like charges could leave the needle and move out into the space....right? >Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:27:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29862; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:26:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:26:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A325CF7.50D678F0 informatics.net> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:25:27 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MEG Info (part deux) References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3118B4.22A5B2E4@pacbell.net> <3A312EF7.8DDB2902@informatics.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uAKxx2.0.WI7.aqbCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin, Yes, I've read that reply and it is in conflict with both JLN's MEG and mine. I'm presently experimenting with additional secondaries wound over the originals and are attempting various load mixes between linear and non-linear. Also, I believe the load resistors used in the MEG in Bearden's paper appear to be wirewound. I think it would be difficult to "condition" these! Several other observations of the Bearden MEG paper and the pix, etc- 1) Why is there pressure applied to the control winding flanges to the degree that the plexglass is bent or bowed? 2) Do I see a gap between the core halves? 3) Why the large heat sink area for the wattages involved? My switching devices are running with slide-on heat sinks and run with little to no heat rise! 3) Why four switching devices on the sinks? Is this a full bridge or some other switch configuration? I think there is perhaps much more to learn about the control drive of Bearden's MEG to possibly allow the use of linear loads! At least at this time, certain anomalies seem to exist with non-linear loads! Regards, Jon Flickinger Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jon Flickinger's message of Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:56:55 -0600: > [snip] > >> Jon Flickinger wrote: > >> > >> > IMHO, it is a waste of time to attempt power measurements of the MEG standard > >> > load resistors (that is, any linear resistive device) if one expects to see any > >> > excess energy. The output loads must be resistive (non-reactive) and nonlinear. > >> > The resistance must decrease with increasing voltage and the power must be > >> > calculated from the output voltage and current. > Hi Jon, > > There appears to a slight conflict with TB here. In one of his replies, he > stated that he was using light bulbs as a load (if I'm not mistaken). > However light bulbs tend to have the opposite characteristic. The resistance > rises with the voltage rather than decreasing as you suggest is required, > hereabove. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 08:48:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01733; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:47:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 08:47:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3A32541E.5B3F8BFB ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 09:47:49 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Pathological" skepticism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m7wkH3.0.tQ.c8cCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear William, While I totally agree with your approach, and appreciate your honest and clear presentation, I would like add my two cents to a defense of Mitchael Jones, not that he can't defend himself. Jones is playing the role of the site's resident skeptic, an annoying but useful job. Granted, he can be arrogant, opinionated and sometimes insulting. However, I suggest most of us are sufficiently secure in our opinions and self-worth to ignore these flaws. On the other hand, he does raise issues that would otherwise be overlooked and generally presents good arguments in a logical manner. Although I have had my share of his sharp wit and arguments, I would miss his strong and well reasoned opinions. Ed Storms William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >>From Vortex-L rule #2. > > > > ***{If you intend to interpret the above as banning the use of words such > > as "bogus," or "nonsense," or "ridiculous," or "absurd," etc., > > It's not the individual words, it's the overall action. Let me clarify. > > Jed presented a possible anomaly for discussion and perhaps experimental > testing. You immediately adopted a position of disbelief clearly tinged > with hostility, and have been arguing that there is no anomaly. You > presented a list of reasons why the anomaly cannot exist. You exclusively > argue against it, and present nothing in favor of it. Apparently you > cannot see through the eyes of the opponent, and ascribe negative > motivations. To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness. Your > attitude towards others with differing opinion is not respectful. You > accused Jed of believing in "polywater." To me that is clearly ridicule. > You seem to see the anomaly, if real, as being a threat to science. > > Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add up to > Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is something I > try to take action against if I notice it appearing on Vortex-L. > > I intended this list to be a haven for anomaly investigation and anomaly > testing. When an anomaly is presented, I want the group to essentially > say: > > "Could this be real? Let's look closer." > > Those who don't wish to look closer can ignore the discussion. Those who > look closer should endevour to find arguements both for and against the > anomaly. If one person is CERTAIN that the anomaly is real, or another is > CERTAIN that it is not, then closemindedness interferes with the > discussion. > > Anyone who quickly adopts an unshakable stance of disbelief against a > newly presented anomaly, and who attempts to convince others NOT to look > closer, significantly interferes with the intellectual atmosphere of > vortex-L which I hope to promote. I therefore issue a warning. > > This whole Pathological Skepticism issue has not appeared recently on > Vortex-L. The majority of subscribers are "believer" types, not Skeptics. > I have not said so recently, but I strongly suggest that vortex-L > subscribers adopt a philosophy of "Provisional belief" regarding anomalies > presented here for possible testing. I see disbelief as a continuing and > major obstacle to investigation. Even openmindedness has its problems, > therefore I recommend that we surrender our defenses and accept new > anomalies as PROVISIONALLY being genuine. This counteracts our normal > human tendency towards Pathological Skepticism and lets us examine BOTH > sides of the issue with less prior bias. It keeps our attitudes mobile, > so they don't get stuck in just one side of belief/disbelief, where they > would color everything. > > > and give people the boot > > Give people the boot? If I wished to threaten you with expulsion, I would > threaten. My message is a warning about improper behavior, as I choose > to define "improper." Have you been thrown out of other lists? > > Here's more from the website: > > "Note that skepticism of the openminded sort is perfectly acceptable on > Vortex-L. The ban here is aimed at "hostile disbelief" and at the > sort of Skepticism which rejects all that is not solidly proved true, > while ignoring all new data and observations which conflict with > widely accepted theory." > > > >I think the rules are not quite clear > > > > ***{"Not quite clear" is an understatement, if you intend to justify > > booting people out > > Who is booted out? And as for justification for my actions, I need none. > I am an inconsistant, irrational human being who periodically takes unfair > actions based only on gut feelings and without regrets or apology. I > revel in my eeeeeevil. > > > and unsubstantiated gossip. Thus if you intend to rely on this sort of > > strained interpretation to give me the boot, while posing as the defender > > of the most out-of-control and unsavoy individual who posts here, then I > > will go sailing out the door laughing, to put it mildly. --MJ}*** > > I am not posing as anything. I am acting as a dictator who arbitrarily > makes the rules and sporadically enforces them at my own whim. I keep the > rules in my head and only write some of them down. I inconsistantly > ignore friends' transgressions while jumping on the same behavior in > non-friends. Depending on my mood, sometimes I give warnings, sometimes I > remove subscribers, with or without explanation. > > If you don't alter your course, what will I do? I don't know. Point out > that you are behaving in a highly UN-vortexian manner, and that the great > and powerful Bill Beaty has frowned. > > Harshly. > > > That is what you are doing right now, by the way: responding to my > > substantive arguments with an ad hominem attack. > > That ploy is really old. You think I have a hidden agenda? I am not > trying to "win" the competitive debate you've started about freezing > water. Only experimentation can settle such issues. Here we have an > opportunity to perform some simple experiments (or at the very least, look > for papers about earlier research.) Instead this is derailed into > argumentativeness. > > I see that we probably have a serious difference in philosophy. To get to > the truth, do we choose sides and start a battle, and the outcome > determines what is true? Or do we all join the SAME side of the fight, > like the members on a mountainclimbing expedition? It's the COMPETITOR > versus the COOPERATOR paradigm. As a long time "cooperator", I see your > usual practice of setting up competitive debates as seriously flawed. You > apparently see my attempts to impose Cooperation as being some sort of > transparent ploy to win the competition. > > This may be akin to a Christian seeing an Aztec as being a flawed > Christian, rather than as having valid but incompatible philosophy. > However, Christians might refuse to allow Aztec sacrifice rituals in > the Christian churches. > > > Then let's hear some substantive arguments to that effect, > > rather than a continuation of this disingenuous effort to reinvent the > > rules. --MJ}*** > > My rules have not varied much over the years of operation here. You're > encountering old rules, and my inconsistant policing of this list. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:03:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06338; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:02:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:02:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Why Ebola Doesn't Compute Resent-Message-ID: <"op9Ct2.0.yY1.xMcCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In an earlier thread, I attempted to clarify why I found it difficult to accept the conventional interpretation of Ebola and similar diseases, and wound up being accused of the multiple redefinition of terms by a proponent of the conventional interpretation. Well, I have reflected on the subject a bit more, and have decided to make one last effort at conveying my point. In the conventional view, Ebola is an "emergent virus" in the sense that it has only recently been recognized by Western medicine, but has in fact supposedly been around for eons, confined to some unknown host species in darkest Africa. In my view, that doesn't compute. Ebola is a highly contagious disease with a mortality rate which varies between 50 and 90 percent, and in a significant proportion of sufferers, the symptoms are spectacular: the afflicted person bleeds from every bodily orifice, and then dies. When someone contacts the "unknown host species," somewhere out in the jungle, the disease incubates for a couple of weeks, giving him plenty of time to interact with other human beings and spread the virus. And during the period of overt illness, his body is literally covered with the virus particles: they ooze from every sweat gland and bleeding lesion on his body. Result: an epidemic in which the disease wipes out all or most of the man's family, then all or most of his village, etc. The implication: this is not a disease that is capable of passing unnoticed. Since people have been living in Africa for millions of years, and since Western medicine has had a presence in Africa for about 200 years, any Ebola outbreak in Africa in the last 200 years could not have gone unnoticed. Thus either there was not a single human contact with the host species until 1974 or so (the time of the first recorded Ebola outbreak) despite the ubiquitous human presence in Africa for eons, or else this virus was not present there very much prior to 1974. Is it plausible that there is some host species in darkest Africa that has harbored this virus for 200 years without transmitting it to a European visitor? Yes. Is it plausible that there is a host species in darkest Africa that has harbored it for 200 years without transmitting it to one of the natives? I think not, though I would hesitate to say it is utterly impossible. Perhaps the probability of such non-transmission might be as high as 1 in 100, and so the conventional theory would seem, at first glance, to be possible though rather unlikely. However, when we consider other highly contagious hemorrhagic fevers with high mortality rates--e.g., Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever, etc.--that likewise could not have gone unnoticed and which are also supposed to be explained by the conventional theory, I find the math to be unbelievable. If the average probability of non-transmission to humans of these various diseases, prior to 1950 say, is .01, then the probability that *none* of them would have been transmitted to humans, and, thus, noticed by Western medicine, becomes (.01)^4 = 10^-8 for the four examples listed, taken together. If there is a hole in this reasoning, what is it? --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:20:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10374; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:16:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:16:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3A326905.4FA35F0B groupz.net> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 12:16:53 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air-drag reduction references References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072633.02ad5318@earthtech.org> <006601c061e9$4bbe2280$ef85fea9@ValuedSonyCustomer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DWXjK3.0.0Y2.8acCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not sure which of his pages you are looking for, but try here...main index.... http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm steve opelc David Jonsson wrote: > > Have you seen this ? > http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns226242 > It is about how to reduce air-drag with plasma technology. > > See also > > Paul R. Hill Unconventional Flying Objects > Chapter XIII Silent Supersonic Operation > > Article "Northrop studying sonic boom remedy." Aviation Week & Space > Technology, Jan 22, 1968, p. 21 > > Jean Naudins work http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/B2proj.htm > Not available! Where is it? > > Are there more info regarding this? I feel like we are in front of a > revolution in avionics. We could with this technology commute Europe America > in one hour to a fraction of the price we have today. To commute on a weekly > or daily basis might become possible. > > David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:30:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13150; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:29:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:29:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3A326BE4.46B1B002 groupz.net> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 12:29:08 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why Ebola Doesn't Compute References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I9etW2.0.ND3.elcCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Have you considered it may have mutated...to where it could cross species...??? steve Mitchell Jones wrote: > > In an earlier thread, I attempted to clarify why I found it difficult to > accept the conventional interpretation of Ebola and similar diseases, and > wound up being accused of the multiple redefinition of terms by a proponent > of the conventional interpretation. Well, I have reflected on the subject a > bit more, and have decided to make one last effort at conveying my point. > However, when we consider other highly contagious hemorrhagic fevers with > high mortality rates--e.g., Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian > hemorrhagic fever, Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever, etc.--that likewise could > not have gone unnoticed and which are also supposed to be explained by the > conventional theory, I find the math to be unbelievable. If the average > probability of non-transmission to humans of these various diseases, prior > to 1950 say, is .01, then the probability that *none* of them would have > been transmitted to humans, and, thus, noticed by Western medicine, becomes > (.01)^4 = 10^-8 for the four examples listed, taken together. > > If there is a hole in this reasoning, what is it? > > --Mitchell Jones > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 09:47:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22260; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:46:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:46:33 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: MEG Info (part deux) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:48:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A325CF7.50D678F0 informatics.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"TNsF22.0.fR5.u_cCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jon: Glad to hear you're using additional windings to try tapping power. Really, any attempt to close the loop is going to effectively require additional resistance in the secondary of the circuit. So either windings (which puts an effective R in the secondary) or just putting some linear resistor in series with the non-linear one (the current sensing resistor was a start...) will allow one to experiment. It strikes me that some kind of simple calorimetry would be more to the point; take a MOV with a constant current DC source and stick a temp probe on the case. Stick a matched temp probe on the case of the load MOV. Now adjust current to match temps. Crude; but with a claimed COP of 4 or so this ought to be plenty enough power to be an effective test. The point? It needs to be very quickly addressed whether the power your meters are reading is real. Yes, I believe you when you say your Clark Hess/ Valhalla/etc meters show real power. I trust in your ability to make accurate measurements. The real question is; do our standard definitions of energy measurement apply in parametric oscillators with non-linear loads? I recommend this later test first; but as you've already probably done the first test (using resistors) I assume the results were that the measured power decreased? Can you summarize for us? Keith N. PS: Thanks for sticking this one out; and for being man enough to address the list openly about your attempt. If this had been done earlier by Bearden & associates a lot of heatburn would have been avoided. Thanks again. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 11:46:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28767; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:45:24 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 11:38:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A328A40.9126D379 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209101917.02af7fa8 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"VaSUQ3.0.217.HleCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little and Horace Heffner wrote: > >HH: In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a > fairly > >high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV > >chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. > > hmmmm. Horace, I appreciate your concern that interposing an insulator > between the needle and the anode stops the phenomenon completely...but how > can you expect to make current flow in the EV-generating circuit (so that > an EV will form) when you eliminate the conductive path of the > circuit? This seems kinda impossible. > > hmmm2. Maybe it could be done capacitively. Instead of applying a pulse > to the needle, let's apply a fast rise-time voltage to the needle and leave > the voltage on indefinitely. That would then create a DC electric field > between the needle and the fully insulated anode and now it DOES seem like > charges could leave the needle and move out into the space....right? In one of KS's earliest and most wordy patents (it is a British patent and I'll try to find the # if you want it) he recommends using a dielectric anode (not a pure insulator). As a practical matter, if you perform any similar experiments with Hg arc lamp bulbs above say 1 kv, the Hg that has impregnated in the quartz bulb walls will make it conductive enough that it will pass several watts of power - so it can almost be concluded that attempts at significant electrode insulation in metal arc tubes will end up being futile at high voltage/ low amps. But this may be exactly what you need for EVs. In experimenting with these bulbs, and trying almost every combination possible of charging schemes, the one that is most efficient from what I would call an "energy amplification" potential (not claiming OU here) is a highly charged, sharply pulsed positive anode and a cathode that floats above ground, i.e. the cathode also has a high positive charge. This is counterintuitive. And since it seemingly goes against KS's standard present day techniques, it may not produce EVs at all, but it does produce occasional anomalies. Here is an easy low power experiment to demonstrate, but again, I'm not sure what the operative mechanism is. I am only assuming that EVs are produced because of the unusual appearance of the discharge and the fact that it will show a more pronounced negative resistance range than is expected for low energy plasmas. It is possible to get the fleeting OU reading during these excursions even with a standard ohmic load - and that alone will give your quiet a thrill even though it has not proven to be repeatable by me and could easily be measurement error. With a load that is also another plasma tube of some kind (fluorescent), these anomalies seem to be repeatable, but the challenge of ever getting a good measurements under such circumstances is almost insurmountable since the load will also have negative resistance characteristics. If you have the right equipment sitting around please try it. You need to rig up a regulated power supply that will deliver positive multi-kv spikes with very fast rise time - and at a pulse rate that is matched precisely to the " ion travel length" of the Hg ions in your tube - with only a few watts (1-5) of total power. Since this ion wavelength (completely different from electron wavelength) will depend upon the fill pressure of the tube, the frequency will usually have to be discovered by trial and error - although Roth has developed formula for figuring it out. Since the rise time is short in comparison to the frequency, what you have in effect is pulse> relatively long delay > pulse, etc. so the the delay is perhaps 10x the pulse width and the frequency will be in the range of several khz if the bulb is a relatively high pressure one. You need a robust Hg arc tube (rated 250 watts or so - cathode and anode appear similar but anode is slightly rounded rather than spiked), a very large hv pulse cap to float the tube cathode on, a precision low ohm resistor and some litz wire to wrap around the bulb. The load will be placed between this wire and ground so that the "real" cathode is the quartz bulb ( the reverse of what KS is doing) ! Insulate everything very carefully as there will be lots of capacitance. Ocassionally you can find a frequency and voltage range (1-10 kv) whose negative resistance characteristics are such that the discharge will intensify as the power drawn decreases and during that time frame the load will "appear" to dissipate more power that is being drawn - for some short time 10-30 seconds (but is far longer than normal transient phenomena). During these excursions, it appears that the positive voltage on the cathode (the one that is floated on the cap) will exceed that on the anode! It is totally bizarre - and the first time it happened I was convinced all of the world's energy problems had been solved. Alas, by now it has become so tedious to look for that I have given up trying. I hope someone with more skill and insight will try to figure it out, or at least try Shoulders other ideas - because I think this frustrating work has given me an inkling as to what has happened not only to KS, but there are many others going back to the early part of the century (Chernetski ?) who have found in low energy resonant plasmas something that is most unusual. Also, I know that there are presently several Japanese and European researchers working along these lines. BTW, inasmuch as Hg tubes produce uv in the range where Fred Sparber says that light leptons should be formed, I have tried to shoehorn his ideas into this device by using two tubes, one with a parabolic mirror to increase the uv in the other but that doesn't seem to make any difference. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:28:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16901; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:27:46 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:34:59 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges Resent-Message-ID: <"bnh1s.0.s74.2NfCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:26 AM 12/9/0, Scott Little wrote: >At 06:04 AM 12/9/2000 -0900, you wrote: >>In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly >>high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV >>chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. > >hmmmm. Horace, I appreciate your concern that interposing an insulator >between the needle and the anode stops the phenomenon completely...but how >can you expect to make current flow in the EV-generating circuit (so that >an EV will form) when you eliminate the conductive path of the >circuit? This seems kinda impossible. Actually, based on Shoulder's original esimates of EV speeds near 0.1 c, the ball will be issued before any leader can reach across a say, 20 cm path. In particular a leader can't reach across the path multiple times to create the contiguous "chains" of balls he observed on the witness plates. His "picoscope" was invented to divert the little balls (on a dielectric plane) and thereby deterimine their charges and speed. This high speed and large charge he derived were the primary evidence for the charge and speed of the EV. Since no leader can reach across the path in the time of the pulse the EV's have to be generated by a mechanism that is purely cathode oriented. Yes the electrostatic field must be there, but electrostatic fields pass right through dielectrics. Each ball does not require its own pulse, so a nearly steady state field (overall, not in the vicinity of the tip) must therefore create them. Chains of balls are created by single pulses. Shoulder's description of the process was purely cathode oriented. He denies the role of the anode. If I weren't so busy this week I would try to dig out some quotes. At any rate, a dielectric over a grounded (or near grounded via small current sensing resistor, his usual config.) anode plate should make no difference in the cathode tip electrodynamics. I should also mention that in my opinion the flaw in the picoscope is that the traces formed and photographed could be due to influences of the side plate fields on the LEADER during leader formation, and the bulk of the charge measured could have been measured during the stroke. There is therefore no proof that the single ball carried all that charge. > >hmmm2. Maybe it could be done capacitively. Yes. The dielectric makes it a capacitive linkage. But note: the rise time of the linkage does not have to match the ball creation time. Multiple balls, "EV chains" are shown to be created regularly, via the witness plate. Shoulders assumes that the multiple pits in circles indicate multiple EV's, not multiple strokes, or multiple anode spots. >Instead of applying a pulse >to the needle, let's apply a fast rise-time voltage to the needle and leave >the voltage on indefinitely. That would then create a DC electric field >between the needle and the fully insulated anode and now it DOES seem like >charges could leave the needle and move out into the space....right? Well to an extent. I think he mentions the importance of a periodic recovery time due to surface charge buildup, but that only necessarily implies a delay between chains. There can also be a problem with arcing or needle oveheating. Among Sholders' capacitve linkages is Fig. 49 in his US 5,123,039 patent, which shows an "electrodeless" EV source. This is very interesting, but the problem is that, as far as I know, a lot of the stuff in the patent was never implemented, or fully tested - it's vaporware. That is not an uncommon thing in patents. It is done to gain full coverage on the concepts. I wonder in what category the electrodeless EV source falls, and what kind of trace evidence was obtained from it if it was implemented. One way to meet CHALLENGE 1 is possibly to build the electrodeless gun and show good EV witness evidence on a dielectric target. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 12:33:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20479; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:31:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 12:31:38 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001209144310.00be7530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 15:31:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mpemba effect caused by supercooling? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sEyt91.0.v_4.fQfCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Quote from: http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/hques2.html#c3 The Mpemba Effect There is in fact a large body of literature about initially hot water freezing faster than cold water and this phenomenon has been labeled the "Mpemba effect" (see references). The literature cited here takes the position that the phenomenon of supercooling is the main mechanism involved and that the history (dissolved gases, etc.) are not crucial to the phenomenon. Supercooling to -5 C or lower is cited and it is suggested that both the initially hot and the initially cold water supercool. If the cold water supercools more, then the the hot water may in fact freeze quicker with nothing more than the degree of supercooling to distinguish the two samples. It was also pointed out that the degree of supercooling is not easily predictable, since it probably depends upon tiny particles or bubbles which nucleate the crystal formation. Experiments showed different amounts of supercooling for the same sample when it was repeatedly liquified and refrozen. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Someone here referred to the Mpemba effect as a possible "artifact." I think that is the wrong word. Artifact = apparent but false result caused by instrument or. Instruments are not used to detect this effect. Harcourt definition of "artifact:" "Radiology. any feature or structure that appears as an image on a radiograph but is not naturally present in living tissue; such an image may result from the measuring instrument itself." Error = human error, in this case something like labeling the bottles wrong. The effect has been widely replicated, so this is ruled out. The Mpemba effect is real. The open questions about it are: Is it trivial? That is, is it caused by some easily detected difference between the samples of water. This can be resolved by repeatedly liquefying and refreezing the same sample. Researchers have already ruled out all the easily detected differences, and so far there is no general agreement about the cause of the effect. Is a caused by fairly obvious physical changes such as evaporation? If it is caused by evaporation, Jones has said that would categorize it as an experimental error. I would say that would make it an interesting and unexpected effect caused by evaporation. Is it caused by sloppiness? That is, by researchers who thought the two samples of water were the same as far as their instruments can detect, but they or wrong. Please note that samples being "the same" has no meaning except as defined by a particular set of instrument readings, for a particular purpose. Samples are never literally the same, down to the last atom. One sample can never remain the same from one second to the next. Is the effect caused by material differences, such as the gas in the water, or other physical properties such as the behavior of thermal stratification in some container shapes? Nobody knows yet. Does the effect have profound scientific implications? Is it likely to overthrow our knowledge of physics, the way polywater would have if it had been real? This is impossible to know with certainty, but it seems unlikely that the Mpemba effect is a newly opened door to an unexplored continent. Probably, if enough attention and work is devoted to the topic, researchers will eventually agree upon the cause of the effect. They may be wrong, but they will agree. It will be established as another property of water, perhaps related to supercooling. Does the effect have any practical applications or usefulness? Yes! Cooks and other people have been using this effect for years to make their work go faster. Additional research into the Mpemba effect may reveal other useful properties of water. If the Mpemba effect is caused by material differences, they must be difficult to detect with present techniques. Perhaps the Mpemba effect itself will become a technique used to distinguish between subtle variations in water gas content or contamination, or perhaps research into it will reveal some new technique. Some questions relating to values and opinions: Is the effect, "bogus, idiotic, pathological," or just plain immoral, as Certain People have alleged? Was polywater similarly bogus or idiotic? The answer is no, to both. Carefully conducted, honest research is never bogus. In the book "Polywater," one researcher is quoted as saying she had a wonderful working on polywater, and she considers this research the high point of her career, even though her results were all negative. Any activity which improves our ability to do research, or which decisively answers a question in the negative has intrinsic value. Jones and many other people feel that research into unexpected phenomena or effects which appear to violate commonly held theories is idiotic. They do not understand the full purpose of research, which is not only to confirm what we know and make use of it, but to challenge our assumptions. Can the existence of the effect be established a priori? Can a particular cause, such as contamination, be known a priori, without conducting an experiment? Jones says yes. I say no, because people are not omniscient. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 13:18:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08755; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:16:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:16:12 -0800 Message-ID: <009501c06226$d9a93c00$3e79add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <001401c060bb$08270660$807aadd1@mikejohnston> <3a338d06.950074605@mail.midiowa.net> Subject: Re: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:26:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"W7Q4R.0.c82.R4gCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm checking, I'll let you know. MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean T. Miller" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:26 AM Subject: Re: Polywater ... A short discussion of Modern Day thinking > Hi Michael, > > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:03:15 -0500, "Michael Johnston" > wrote: > > > Any knowledge of Oxy-water? > > It is a term from Faraday's time and comes up in his writings. It is > >supposed to be oxygen enriched water but both oxygen (not air) and hydrogen > >are insoluble in water so I was wondering about oxy-water. It is created > >(according to Faraday) as a by-product of certain electrolysis operations. > > Was Faraday referring to hydrogen peroxide? > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 13:27:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12637; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:25:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:25:51 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why Ebola Doesn't Compute Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 21:20:37 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3496ee.1083702923 mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA12474 Resent-Message-ID: <"NBnxV3.0.E53.UDgCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitchell, On Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:02:22 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >In an earlier thread, I attempted to clarify why I found it difficult to >accept the conventional interpretation of Ebola and similar diseases, and >wound up being accused of the multiple redefinition of terms by a proponent >of the conventional interpretation. Well, I have reflected on the subject a >bit more, and have decided to make one last effort at conveying my point. >In my view, that doesn't compute. Ebola is a highly contagious disease That's assumption number 1. >with a mortality rate which varies between 50 and 90 percent, Assumption 2. >and in a >significant proportion of sufferers, the symptoms are spectacular: the >afflicted person bleeds from every bodily orifice, and then dies. Assumption 3. ("significant portion" being undefined) >When >someone contacts the "unknown host species," somewhere out in the jungle, Assumption 4. >the disease incubates for a couple of weeks, >giving him plenty of time to >interact with other human beings and spread the virus. Assumption 5. >And during the >period of overt illness, his body is literally covered with the virus >particles: they ooze from every sweat gland and bleeding lesion on his >body. Assumption 6. >Result: an epidemic in which the disease wipes out all or most of the >man's family, then all or most of his village, etc. Umm, conclusion? First of all, which village or family has almost been wiped out by Ebola? If the assumptions, above, are correct, then we should be hearing reports of villages and/or families being wiped out. So far, there are none of which I'm aware. Here are the current reports: "The disease has killed 156 people, including 14 health workers, in Uganda since September. " "To date, the Ebola outbreak has been confined to Gulu town, 360 kilometers north of Kampala, Masindi town 300 kilometers northwest of Kampala, and Mbarara town, 280 kilometers southwest of Kampala. " "KAMPALA, Uganda (UPI) - Three people suffering from Ebola-like symptoms have been found in Uganda's second-largest town for the first time, raising new fears Friday that the deadly disease is spreading." So, there are 156 people who are dead out of a population of many million in 3 months. Uganda is a reasonably sized country -- but it's not as big as Texas. There's plenty of possible contact between people who have contracted Ebola. So where is the epidemic? One or more of the assumptions, above, have to be incorrect. Perhaps the media is overblowing the problem a bit? The external signs of Ebola (and other hemorrhagic diseases) are extremely frightening, and it's easy for a writer to emphasize the outward characteristics of the disease. Perhaps it isn't as contagious as has been described in the media. If it were, there should be many thousands of people with Ebola since September (incubation 10-20 days) and thousands of deaths (assumption 2, 50% to 90% mortality rate). But there aren't. Is it possible that assumption 1 and/or assumption 2 are incorrect? Maybe assumption 3 is incorrect. Is it possible that the disease is highly contagious, and the incubation is a week or two, but a significant portion of people who contract the disease have no outward symptoms -- and their body fights off the disease? Could Ebola cause infected people to not feel like moving around much, so assumption 5 may not hold? ******************************** Hemorrhagic diseases are horrible to see, and very scary because we don't have vaccines to stop most of them. The media has jumped on them because they are very easy to describe. BUT, they are nowhere close to being as contagious as many other diseases (the common cold, for example -- or measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc.). It's also very possible that native populations have a genetic immunity to being severely affected by the hemorrhagic diseases, just as African populations have a genetic immunity to malaria. >The implication: this is not a disease that is capable of passing >unnoticed. Since people have been living in Africa for millions of years, >and since Western medicine has had a presence in Africa for about 200 >years, any Ebola outbreak in Africa in the last 200 years could not have >gone unnoticed. This would be true, if the above assumptions were correct. >Is it plausible that there is some host species in darkest Africa that has >harbored this virus for 200 years without transmitting it to a European >visitor? Yes. Is it plausible that there is a host species in darkest >Africa that has harbored it for 200 years without transmitting it to one of >the natives? I think not, though I would hesitate to say it is utterly >impossible. Perhaps the probability of such non-transmission might be as >high as 1 in 100, and so the conventional theory would seem, at first >glance, to be possible though rather unlikely. > >However, when we consider other highly contagious hemorrhagic fevers with >high mortality rates--e.g., Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian >hemorrhagic fever, Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever, etc.--that likewise could >not have gone unnoticed and which are also supposed to be explained by the >conventional theory, I find the math to be unbelievable. If the average >probability of non-transmission to humans of these various diseases, prior >to 1950 say, is .01, then the probability that *none* of them would have >been transmitted to humans, and, thus, noticed by Western medicine, becomes >(.01)^4 = 10^-8 for the four examples listed, taken together. I would agree with you that these would be new, and not just newly discovered, diseases IF they were even as contagious as, say syphillus. But they aren't. We don't know (or I haven't been able to find) any good sources that put numbers to the degree of contagion for these diseases. Nor do we know what percentage of people who have contracted the disease(s) show overt symptoms -- or die. Until these numbers are available, it's extremely hard to answer the question about whether or not these diseases have been around for eons, or have recently evolved. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 14:58:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21111; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:57:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:57:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3A32E5BE.63D1 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:09:02 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect caused by supercooling? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001209144310.00be7530 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PJzTB1.0.M95.xYhCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Quote from: > > http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/hques2.html#c3 > > The Mpemba Effect > > There is in fact a large body of literature about initially hot water > freezing faster than cold water and this phenomenon has been labeled the > "Mpemba effect" (see references). The literature cited here takes the > position that the phenomenon of supercooling is the main mechanism involved > and that the history (dissolved gases, etc.) are not crucial to the > phenomenon. Well, my high school experiments confirm this. My physics teacher said that because the water molecule is slightly bipolar, the molecules tend to "line up" due to the slight electric potential. This alignment is disrupted by turbulence in warm water. The charge alignment in cool water allows the liquid to supercool until disrupted and the water realigns into ice crystals. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 15:05:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22845; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:04:42 -0800 Message-ID: <03e001c06236$0843f000$3e79add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: The Hydro Grill Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:16:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03DD_01C0620C.1C8CE820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sdsob3.0.ra5.AghCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03DD_01C0620C.1C8CE820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that's right, a bar-b-que fueled by hydrogen. Go to the url and = click on the products link. http://www.warsitz.com/ MJ ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_000_03DD_01C0620C.1C8CE820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, that's right, a bar-b-que fueled = by hydrogen.=20 Go to the url and click on the products link.
http://www.warsitz.com/
=
MJ
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Click = here for=20 Free Video!!
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------=_NextPart_000_03DD_01C0620C.1C8CE820-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 15:16:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25909; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:14:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:14:49 -0800 Message-ID: <03f301c06237$6f46ad00$3e79add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Description of a commercial electrolyzer I found Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:26:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C0620D.843F1F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"V1JWO.0.jK6.ephCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C0620D.843F1F00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_03F0_01C0620D.8446C020" ------=_NextPart_001_03F0_01C0620D.8446C020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Electrolyser =20 Norsk Hydro's electrolyser type HCU is a bi-polar filter press = electrolyser. It is delivered as a pre-assembled, complete unit = including cells and end frames, electrolyser cell package, all supported = by a rigid base frame. One cell includes: electrode (anode) - gasket - = steel frame with diaphragm - gasket - electrode (cathode). The = electrolyser cells are circular in shape and have a diameter of approx. = 1.8 meters.=20 The cells are pressed together between two rigid end frames by six = tie bolts fixed by nuts and disc springs for controlled tension. The = assembled cells are called a cell package. The electrodes and the = diaphragm frames are made from carbon steel and nickel plated to resist = corrosion. The electrodes are attached to both sides of the electrode = support discs. The gas formation takes place on the electrodes which are = covered with an electro-catalyst specially developed by Norsk Hydro = which reduces the cell voltage, hence the power consumption = significantly.=20 The oxygen and hydrogen sides of the cell are separated by a woven = non-asbestos diaphragm.=20 The gaskets are made from a synthetic rubber developed by Norsk = Hydro and have a T-profile for ease of installation and stable fixation. = DC voltage is applied between the first and last electrode, thereby = producing a current flow through the cells and gas is produced.=20 Gas from each cell is collected in the H2 and O2 flow ducts. These = ducts are formed integrally within the cell package assembly and run in = parallel at the top. The product gases are fed into the gas/lye = separators at the front of the electrolyser. The lye from the = electrolyte system is recycled back into the lye distribution channels = which are formed integrally at the bottom of the cell package.=20 The electrolyser cells rest on two support rails underneath the = electrolyser. The rails are covered with insulators to avoid = short-circuiting to earth, and are insulated from the skid base frame. = In addition to the support function, the rails also permit thermal = expansion and contraction of the cell block by acting as a sliding rail. = The base frame of the electrolyser unit is earthed and can be = touched safely. However, the cell block should be surrounded by a wooden = fence for personnel protection. =20 =20 =20 =20 ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------=_NextPart_001_03F0_01C0620D.8446C020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Electrolyser
 
Norsk = Hydro's=20 electrolyser type HCU is a bi-polar filter press electrolyser. It = is=20 delivered as a pre-assembled, complete unit including cells and = end=20 frames, electrolyser cell package, all supported by a rigid base = frame.=20 One cell includes: electrode (anode) - gasket - steel frame with = diaphragm=20 - gasket - electrode (cathode). The electrolyser cells are = circular in=20 shape and have a diameter of approx. 1.8 meters.=20

The cells are pressed together between two rigid end frames by = six tie=20 bolts fixed by nuts and disc springs for controlled tension. The = assembled=20 cells are called a cell package. The electrodes and the diaphragm = frames=20 are made from carbon steel and nickel plated to resist corrosion. = The=20 electrodes are attached to both sides of the electrode support = discs. The=20 gas formation takes place on the electrodes which are covered with = an=20 electro-catalyst specially developed by Norsk Hydro which reduces = the cell=20 voltage, hence the power consumption significantly.=20

The oxygen and hydrogen sides of the cell are separated by a = woven=20 non-asbestos diaphragm.=20

The gaskets are made from a synthetic rubber developed by Norsk = Hydro=20 and have a T-profile for ease of installation and stable fixation. = DC=20 voltage is applied between the first and last electrode, thereby = producing=20 a current flow through the cells and gas is produced.=20

Gas from each cell is collected in the H2 and O2 flow ducts. = These=20 ducts are formed integrally within the cell package assembly and = run in=20 parallel at the top. The product gases are fed into the gas/lye = separators=20 at the front of the electrolyser. The lye from the electrolyte = system is=20 recycled back into the lye distribution channels which are formed=20 integrally at the bottom of the cell package.=20

The electrolyser cells rest on two support rails underneath the = electrolyser. The rails are covered with insulators to avoid=20 short-circuiting to earth, and are insulated from the skid base = frame. In=20 addition to the support function, the rails also permit thermal = expansion=20 and contraction of the cell block by acting as a sliding rail.=20

The base frame of the electrolyser unit is earthed and can be = touched=20 safely. However, the cell block should be surrounded by a wooden = fence for=20 personnel protection.
 


-----------------------------------------------------
Click = here for=20 Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video= /
------=_NextPart_001_03F0_01C0620D.8446C020-- ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C0620D.843F1F00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="s.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www2.hydro.com/electro/eng/images/s.gif R0lGODlhAQABAID/AMDAwAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAQAICRAEAOwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAAQABAEAIBAADBAQA Ow== ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C0620D.843F1F00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="pil.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www2.hydro.com/electro/eng/images/pil.gif R0lGODlhEgAKAKL/AMDAwCkpKVpaWmNjY6WlpQAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAASAAoAQAMk CLrcPCXKOQNpkFqH4+ZARkkfKJSgIhZBGo6eI8DaQtx4rl8JADsRaFuBJCHCnNrSzHRt0wucWcWA HA0MasI5sESgkg7gaHhAiah0yiKZhoBAwRDEagKGleLX8G4Ig2PrimoaFepQAsE+Cz7IvPVUHPj/ gIEDAgYBEQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_03EF_01C0620D.843F1F00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 15:36:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00313; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:35:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:35:51 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV size? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:35:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA32752 Resent-Message-ID: <"weYKG.0.p4.M7iCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:12:23 -0600: >In the early days, KS claimed that an EV had 10^8 or 10^10 electrons in it. >That's between 10^-11 and 10^-9 coulombs and is more-or-less consistent >with the scale of the apparatus he used to generate them. > >In his recent paper > >http://www.svn.net/krscfs/Charge%20Clusters%20In%20Action.pdf > >or > >http://www.earthtech.org/ev/ccaction.pdf (same paper) > >on page 5, he says that an EV has Avogadro's number of electrons!!!!! Hi Scott, I'm afraid KS seems to be a little confused about the meaning of Avogadro's number. I suspect what he is trying to say is that the charge density in an EV is the same as in solid matter. From this then would naturally follow his statement that absorption of an EV would lead to an extra electron for each atom, resulting in a mass of negative charges repelling one another, and causing the matter to dissociate. The interesting point here is of course that apparently whatever held the EV together while in transit apparently ceases to work upon impact. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 16:51:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25216; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:49:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:49:26 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:44:28 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: EV size? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A32D1EC.31056810 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"W9pfm3.0.s96.MCjCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >on page 5, he says that an EV has Avogadro's number of electrons!!!! > > I'm afraid KS seems to be a little confused about the meaning of Avogadro's > number. I suspect what he is trying to say is that the charge density in an > EV is the same as in solid matter. From this then would naturally follow his > statement that absorption of an EV would lead to an extra electron for each > atom, resulting in a mass of negative charges repelling one another, and > causing the matter to dissociate. > The interesting point here is of course that apparently whatever held the EV > together while in transit apparently ceases to work upon impact. This has troubled me too, except that he is not confused about Avogadro's number - he has simply not proposed a viable mechanism that suspends coulomb repulsion on such a scale. It is likely that KS believes that the EV is a correlate of the Bose condensate. More a metaphor than a correlation, as the parameters are so different. OTOH consider the electron pairing/ bonding that presumably goes on in HTSC. Some have suggested and even attempted to prove that an HTSC effect occurs in CF electrodes. A mechanism that would bind two electrons in a solid, particularly a cold solid, would not seem to be be relevant to a hot cathode at first blush. But perhaps the EV is ONLY an "interfacial phenomenon," and that immediately when the EV structure exits the confinement of the interface, it begins to rapidly disintegrate. All that one needs to explain some of the reported EV phenomena, if indeed there are any that survive the scrutiny of continuing investigations, is merely a mechanism that allows some electrons to accelerate well past the voltage potentials that should be present in the device. If the EV were only an interfacial structure, even a far smaller one, but one that immediately disintegrated by way of a Maxwellian energy distribution, then some small percentage of the initial electrons would undoubtedly attain enormous acceleration. Wouldn't it be nice if someone could persuade KS him to join us in this dialog!! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 17:51:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18725; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:49:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:49:48 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 19:51:38 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Join a discussion about EV's? X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: krscfs svn.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209192402.0311fd38 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9MVOy1.0.Ta4.w4kCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ken, A bunch of guys who have studied your EV work and have actually done some experimentation are having an informal discussion on the open forum known as Vortex-L. Vortex-L is a good discussion group. Its members are generally respectful and intelligent. Read about it here: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html Ken, we would be very grateful if you would join this discussion for a few days. We have many unanswered questions about EV's. The goal of this discussion is to promote further investigation into EV's. To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. No quotes around "subscribe," of course. Once you do that, you'll start getting all the Vortex-L message traffic...about 10-20 messages per day. Just send a test message to: vortex-l eskimo.com (that's an "L" after vortex) ...and we'll know you've joined us. Of course you can bail out at any time. Thanks for considering this. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 17:59:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24121; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:55:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EV size? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:54:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> <3A32D1EC.31056810@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3A32D1EC.31056810 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA24069 Resent-Message-ID: <"NqgIo3.0.ou5.y9kCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:44:28 -0800: [snip] >This has troubled me too, except that he is not confused about Avogadro's number In "Charge Clusters in action" KS writes: "When measured separately (1) , an EV appears to be a collection of electrons that has a number density equal to the number of nucleons in a solid. It thus has an electron population equal to Avagadro’s number. " The second sentence does not follow from the first. Equal densities would have certain consequences, but one of them is NOT that a certain number of electrons is required in a charge cluster. Besides which there is nothing intrinsically special about Avogadro's number. It relates purely to our definition of the gram, which is a wholly arbitrary quantity. Ergo, my initial statement that KS appeared to be confused about Avogadro's number. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 18:26:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28303; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:24:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:24:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:19:55 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: EV size? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A32E84B.95C70AA4 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> <3A32D1EC.31056810@pacbell.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id SAA28278 Resent-Message-ID: <"QiGFp2.0.8w6.mbkCw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, Thanks for the clarification. Now I see what you you were referring to. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:44:28 -0800: > [snip] > >This has troubled me too, except that he is not confused about Avogadro's number > In "Charge Clusters in action" KS writes: > > "When measured separately (1) , an EV appears to be a collection of > electrons that has a number density equal to the > number of nucleons in a solid. It thus has an electron population equal to > Avagadro’s number. " > > The second sentence does not follow from the first. Equal densities would > have certain consequences, but one of them is NOT that a certain number of > electrons is required in a charge cluster. > > Besides which there is nothing intrinsically special about Avogadro's > number. It relates purely to our definition of the gram, which is a wholly > arbitrary quantity. > > Ergo, my initial statement that KS appeared to be confused about Avogadro's > number. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 20:35:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09749; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:34:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:34:33 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209233904.00a01900 inet1547@pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 inet1547@pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 23:39:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <3A32E84B.95C70AA4 pacbell.net> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209100146.02b14e38 earthtech.org> <3A32D1EC.31056810 pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Y1mTz3.0.BO2.PVmCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Test From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 20:41:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11382; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:40:39 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209234530.00a01ec0 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 23:45:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Fo2-H1.0.mn2.7bmCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Test From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 9 21:39:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28451; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:38:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:38:15 -0800 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 10:34:40 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <190787627.20001209103440 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Resent-Message-ID: <"Nt0Ht2.0.Cy6.3RnCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: WB> Hostile skeptics can permanently silence any modern inventor who has a WB> REAL o/u or antigravity device. Just accuse that inventor of running a WB> scam. Can you give any examples? Who has such a device? I do not believe that for a minute. Skeptics are somewhat, but not entirely, effective at silencing the inventors who CLAIM to have such devices but in fact do not have them. The first self running generator, if there ever is such a thing, will change the world if the details are not kept secret. Nobody could stop it any more than the US government has been able to stop the spread of modern encryption technology such as PGP. Put the plans on the internet and it will be all over. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 00:10:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25013; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:08:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:08:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:06:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Fwd: RE: your energy machine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA24989 Resent-Message-ID: <"zBNZB2.0.l66.ldpCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fellow Vortexians; I sent the email at the end of this and received the following reply. I am going to mention the "More on Bearden" email and the late Otto Schmitt's comments on their being several different forms of electricity. >Reply-To: >From: "Tom Bearden" >To: "thomas malloy" >Subject: RE: your energy machine >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:35:09 -0600 >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >Importance: Normal > >Dear Thomas, > >I think you're sincere, so will take some time (today is unreal; four hours >sleep last night) and try to give you some information. > >Overunity means more normal energy out, doing work in the load, than the >amount of normal energy one must input to run it. I'm not going to explain >very much about the use of that word "normal", but will say only enough to >point you in the proper direction. > >Doesn't matter what one does with the normal output, or in what kind of >load. We have a MEG with a smoothed DC output of 96 watts, absolutely >normal electrical power. You can power lights, run a little DC motor, >whatever you wish. Power a resistor, you get real heat. MEASURABLE heat. >Etc. We don't do calorimetry because we are electrical physicists, >electrical engineers, etc. We do use good instruments, and our main bench >persons are very experienced. > >We are very, very busy also, as you might imagine. If we stopped and did >every test everyone comes up with, we would be here till 2004 doing all >sorts of things, none of which have any bearing on our Corporate strategy >and company business plan and on our immediate research needs. It's amazing >how many folks out there seem to think we HAVE to do this or HAVE to do that >for them. We owe them nothing at all except what the scientific method >itself requires: (1) independent impeccable replication, and (2) independent >impeccable testing. Now THOSE TWO THINGS everyone has the right to >absolutely "demand" of us. We have no heartburn with that demand at all, >and have been repeatedly stating that. We are in process of obtaining those >very two things. The MEG is not scientifically validated until those two >things are successfully accomplished. > >So I encourage everyone to remain "skeptical but in temporary abeyance" >until we get those requirements done and present the results. We have no >problem at all with a healthy "skeptical but willing to wait and see" >attitude. I have STRONG problems and intolerance for folks who've never >even seen or worked with an overunity system, yet who already consider they >have "expert" knowledge and know all about such systems, all about testing >them, etc., who speculate from their "expert knowledge" (and absolutely zero >knowledge of overunity negentropic EM systems!) and adamantly DEMAND that we >do this or that. I have little patience with such presumptuous people. I >try to be nice one time, if they are not rude. When they come on rudely or >demandingly, I simply tell them to go fish, and block any further E-mails >from them. At 70 (in a few days) I have little time left and little >patience left to waste on such fellows. > >But yes, the burden of scientific proof is firmly upon us. We accept that, >and will fully show impeccable proof. If we fail to do that, then we are in >default and you can just write the MEG off as one more of the failures. In >that case it would be an honest failure, but a failure nonetheless. > >We do caution correspondents about such nonsense as "everybody knows >that..." etc. That "everybody" in that sentence has zero experience or >knowledge in COP>1.0 EM systems. But it is astounding how many thousands of >"experts in overunity EM machines" seem to be self-appointed and "out >there" -- all using or trying to use and enforce classical EM models, which >totally discard all COP>1.0 Maxwellian systems in the first place. Few of >them even know the elementary fact that their Lorentz regauged >Maxwell-Heaviside equations are useless for overunity systems. Those poor >fellows have not even gotten to the "first step" of a long stairway. > >Remember also that we have gathered lots of experimental phenomena and >proprietary data over several years, and done lots of analysis in our group. >A little of that, we have released openly. Much of it we have not released >and it is still proprietary information. Anyone who does not "like" that >can just go fish. That bears upon future patents or potential patents, and >frankly we do not even release that type of information even under >nondisclosure agreements. > >Most correspondents to date simply assume that resistors, semiconductors, >calorimeters, batteries, etc. exhibit exactly the same phenomena in a >negentropic system as they do in an entropic system. Most do not even >realize they have made such an assumption! That assumption is totally >unfounded, to say the least, and it reveals a very naïve person >scientifically, or else one who has only handled entropic energy situations >and will never even think of anything else. It reveals, in my opinion, >precisely what is wrong in the "overunity field" today. In our little >group, we have paid a very dear price in terms of financial costs and >man-years to gain some knowledge and a little skill in that area -- >knowledge which is totally absent from present electrical texts -- over >years of arduous effort. Since we are a commercial company, that is >proprietary information at this point and we will not even discuss it. We >will not release anything which will jeopardize our future patent posture >etc; and not every patent we intend to file has been filed. > >As an example, I respect your position but I'm sorry, you and Dr. Schmitt -- >whom I met and interacted with a couple of times and liked -- really did not >discover a "no BS" method for OTHER THAN ENTROPIC SYSTEMS. You DID discover >a foolproof "no BS" method for an ENTROPIC system, and I agree with that >part. I don't agree at all that you discovered a fool-proof method FOR >OTHER THAN ENTROPIC SYSTEMS. Look at it this way. The ionic chemistry in >the water interacts very differently with negentropic (convergent) EM energy >than it does with entropic (divergent) EM energy. Which textbooks on the >chemistry of negentropic energy regions did you examine? There are none! >You were and are not quite there yet, with respect to negentropic systems. >You ARE there with respect to ENTROPIC systems. But since you are obviously >sincere, these statements are only meant to show you a further insight and a >situation you did not consider, and to encourage you to begin to consider >them. That is as far as I can go with the discussion. Unless you did lots >of calorimetry experiments with NEGENTROPIC EM energy as well as ENTROPIC EM >energy, you only dealt with and considered half the problem, and >specifically only that problem resulting from and in entropic systems. The >ionic constituents of a fluid do react quite differently in negentropic >energy situations than in entropic situations, and that is all I am free to >say. It is not a problem in making practical power systems by various >methods. Note that this very sort of thing is what was and is at the heart >of the raging cold fusion controversy. > >To deviate and discuss something not infringing on proprietary information, >let me give you something similar in another field. In magnetics, the >multi-valued potential arises naturally in the theory, as is well-known in >the better literature (and can be easily verified). The electrodynamicists >were and are appalled at that, and so they manipulated the magnetic theory >in all sorts of fashions to eliminate or negate those multi-valued potential >effects. One of the embarrassing reasons is that, if you have a >"multivalued potential situation" in an otherwise closed magnetic loop, you >have a discontinuity at one point and different values of the SAME >potential, on each adjacent side of that point of discontinuity. The line >integral of F dot dl around the loop then is NOT zero! This means that the >net work around the loop is not zero, and that you are looking at a >potentially overunity system! Obviously, since the multivalued potential >does arise in real materials and real-world situations, if one recovers what >they smoothed out of there, it is therefore perfectly possible (although it >may be DIFFICULT!) to build a permanent magnet motor/generator that rotates >itself, at least in theory where we include those multivalued potentials. >It is just as feasible as is hot fusion, which we know is doable but has >proven to be extraordinarily expensive and very difficult as far as any >development of practical power systems. > >With respect to the free-energy researchers citing the multivalued potential >fact, the nonzero integration fact, etc., one would think that, faced with a >KNOWN mechanism capable of producing a self-rotating permanent magnet >engine, we would see a furious spate of scientific papers to that effect, >furious research, etc. Instead, all we hear is a deafening silence. >Why???? > >Why are not the CONVENTIONAL physicists and electrodynamicists and research >power engineers pursuing that known and proven multivalued potential >phenomenon with great vigor? Instead of trying to USE the MVP in practical >overunity systems, they simply exerted considerable theoretical effort to >effectively "scrub it from the theory" and get rid of it. And if you point >out that the KNOWN and admitted magnetic phenomena do indeed permit >multivalued potentials and therefore permit self-operating systems (open >dissipative systems, in Prigogine's terminology), you are immediately >labeled a kook, a perpetual motion nut, or (in the kindest label) a >pseudo-scientist. > >When a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed magnetics fellow jumps up and expounds >that a self-rotating magnetic motor is against the very laws of nature, he >is not only totally wrong but also reveals his grave ignorance of how and in >what manner his own magnetics theory itself was actually developed to >eliminate all those free "broken symmetries" that would enable the very >self-powering he thinks is against the laws of nature. It is not nature who >opposes self-rotating magnetic engines, but the arbitrarily emasculated >magnetics theory that is the work of humans. > >Someone once said, "He who does not learn the lessons of history is doomed >to repeat them," or something similar. Nowhere in all the world is that >more true than in the history of the terribly crippled electrodynamics >largely taught today, and particularly the models taught for EM power >systems. Hal Fox and the Journal of New Energy, e.g., has kindly published >some 60 AIAS papers dealing with a more extended O(3) electrodynamics model, >and in that model the interaction of vacuum energy and EM circuits exists >and can be expressed. The vacuum interaction itself is not even included in >CEM, much less a broken symmetry in that interaction. It isn't NATURE that >prevents us from looking at the raging EM-vacuum interaction already ongoing >in every EM system; it is arbitrary restriction of the models by the >scientists themselves. > >Lorentz symmetrical regauging of the Maxwell-Heaviside equations >accomplished a very similar thing. It threw out all Maxwellian systems far >from equilibrium in their violent energy exchange with the local active >vacuum. In THAT theory, quite understandably, there are no open dissipative >thermodynamic systems, which is required for COP>1.0. Today, that hoary old >ARBITRARY Lorentz reduction of the Maxwell-Heaviside theory is assumed, and >is almost universally used as the basis for calling all COP>1.0 researchers >kooks, perpetual motion nuts, or pseudoscientists at best. > >Meanwhile, the same misguided "experts" assume in all their theory and >equations that the source charge freely creates enormous and continuous >energy out of nothing, and pours it out in all directions at lightspeed, >establishing the associated fields, potentials, and the EM energy in them. >They sweep that under the rug; however, a good electrodynamicist will admit >it is something like "the greatest problem in electrodynamics, both >classical and quantal". > >Now I ask you, which group -- the COP>1.0 researchers advocating a >permissible open dissipative system, or the conventional electricians >(Heaviside's term) implicitly advocating that every OVERUNITY SYSTEM charge >in the universe grossly and continuously violates the conservation of energy >law by creating energy continuously -- are really the pseudoscientists???? >We at least do not advocate suchperpetual motion machines. They do, and on >the grandest scale imaginable. > >In short, is the charge a perpetual motion machine as is implicitly assumed, >or is it really an open system outputting EM energy in 3-space (as is >experimentally demonstrated, very easily) and therefore rigorously receiving >that energy from the TIME domain??? > >For your information, we already published a proposed solution to that >"source charge" problem, in our paper "Giant Negentropy from the Common >Dipole", kindly published by Hal Fox in the most recent issue of Journal of >New Energy. > >Anyway, we meet the gross lack of understanding of the foundations of >electrodynamics -- and the arbitrary truncations of the Maxwellian model -- >almost everywhere, in the majority of classically trained persons and even >in quantally trained persons. It is sad, because better facts and answers >are already in the hard literature and have been there for a long time, but >just in somewhat obscure places and left "rotting on the vine". > >Best wishes to you and I wish you success in your own research, > > >Tom Bearden > >-----Original Message----- >From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:28 AM >To: soliton bellsouth.net >Subject: your energy machine > >Dear Tom; > > I've been following Vortex-L. The late Otto Schmitt and I >discussed this matter at length and he came up with a no BS method of >determining energy output, he said "tell them to heat water." So >are you asserting that your open ended machine will produce heat at a >100 times gain when powering a water heater? > >Sincerely > >Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 00:10:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25078; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:08:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:08:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:06:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"1Oida.0.m76.7epCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 2:27 AM 12/8/0, thomas malloy wrote: > > >steady stream on donut shaped plasma vortexed shooting at the target. >>Are you telling me that this is not so? > >Scott Little and Horace Heffner wrote; >A "doughnut shaped plasma" does not meet Ken Shoulder's definition of "EV" >because plasma is neutral and EV's are said to consist of electrons with >possibly one positive particle. The ratio of negative to positive charge >is said to be huge. In fact, it is this large ratio that provides the >anomaly, the possibility of violation of COE. > In KS's > >paper on the website, I understood him to say that when the metal in >>the melted area on the target is analyzed, it has an odd isotopic >>ratio indicating fusion events. > >Even if true, this is not evidence for EV's, only of LENR. My question is can I induce LENR's by bombarding a target with plasma vortexes? > >One of the major problems with Shoulders' theory is he describes a >mechanism for generating EV's that is centered only at the cathode, yet a >current path to an anode is required to generate an EV. If you impose a >dielectric barrier, then the supposed EV's are not emitted. Does the addition of the dielectric barrier stop the production of the plasma vortexes too? >A small anode >foil placed on top of the barrier does permit a brief current flow, >provided the capacitance to ground from the foil is large enough to bear >the leader current, but this is just another form of current path to >ground. If Shoulder's theory were correct, then no completed leader-like >mechancism would be involved because there is not sufficient time for a >leader to form. The EV would be gone from the cathode before it could >"know" there was a dielectric in front of the anode. This raises another interesting question; what does the electron know, and when does it know it. I don't care what KS thinks, plasmas are not intelligent entities. I've been reading The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. He says that Aharonov-Bohm proves the existance of an effect. "under the right circumstances an electron is able to "feel" the presence of a magnetic field that it is in a region where there is a zero probability of finding an electron." I read the paper and didn't see that. In doing research on the effects of Aharonov-Bohm, I came across a paper in P Review that talked about all the unresolved questions raised by A-B. This has given me reason to read the article. > The EV would be >perfectly capable of being emitted toward a dielectric covered anode. This >does not happen, so the theory is wrong. I can dig up my experiment notes >on this in a week or so, if this is important enough. I would like to keep this thread going. I'm much more interested in LENR's than OU energy. Scott, I would like to know what Hal Puthoff has to say about both A-B and the differnet types of electricity. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 00:11:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24731; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:06:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:06:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A3102A2.679967E6 pacbell.net> References: <3A305844.F59247D6 informatics.net> <3A3102A2.679967E6 pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:06:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: More on Bearden Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"0YQH13.0.L26.QcpCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote; > Newman has biked investors for big $$. >4.) Bearden goes public with his claims and IMMEDIATELY, even before >the claims can >be verified, we learn that he already has stock ready to sell!! >5.) Oh almost forgot. When Newman was finally pressed by his >gullible investors to >produce a self-running motor, he and many others tried to do it for >many months - There are no shortage of investors who want to get in on the ground floor of an opportunity >and when it wouldn't work, he had the unmitigated audacity to claim >that there were >really TWO kinds of electricity in the universe - and that since >his motor produced >only the second kind, this wasn't a fair test !! I'm not making >this up - it's a >matter of historical record. I wrote an email to Tom Bearden and told him what Otto Schmitt said about heating water. He responded that his machine produces energy which will produce heat. So that settles it. If this machine produces the amount of energy gain that Tom says it will, it will be possible to close the loop with a nonelectric interface. The waste energy can be used to heat green houses, or district heating systems. > >Do we want to see history repeat itself? I would rather see an unlimited number of investors lose any amount of money than see one legitimate inventor suppressed by the state. > >I apologize if it appears that I'm trying to pick on you - or on >anyone else but >these are truly MOMENTOUS claims. And if nobody questions them at >this level, do you >think that the casual investor will flinch when Bearden tries to go >national. How >will that then reflect on us, when he is proven to be a con man, or >at best in total >denial of what COP > 1 means. He should get Clinton to compose his >PR releases. I got over worrying how it makes me look when Stan Meyer came and went. If Tom is making up those emails I'd say that Clinton could take some lessons from him. > >Since Bearden won't respond directly, it seems like you and Robin >van Spaandonk are >emerging as Bearden's only allies (what happened to Vince?). Please, >Vortex, if >anyone out there claims to understand what Bearden is up to (i.e. >how he measure >that the MEG is COP=5 and still is not be able to use about 30 percent of that >output to self-sustain) please enlighten this particular cretin (me) >before I make >an even bigger ass out of myself. Hold you shirt on. If he is offering stock for sale it is only a matter of time before he is going to have to show a working machine. The ultimate answer to this is heat energy. If there is more than one kind of electricity, Otto Schmitt told me that there are several different phenomena, electron flow, hole movement, potential waves, which all account for what we know as electrical phenomena. I'm going to bring Pat Bailey in on this and see what he has to say about this. I've been reading The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. He mentions one of my favorite papers, Aharonov-Bohm. I've always assumed that even if you totally cancel the magnetic emanations of a solonoid, there is still a residual effect which effects electrons. I assume that this has to do with the curl free magnetic potential vectors. > >> If anyone should experience valid COP's >1 with standard linear >>loads, please >> speak out! > >Indeed ! > >Thanks in advance, > >Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 00:35:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29474; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:33:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:33:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20001210083325.24356.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:33:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Teller's 'Inherently safe' Triga fission reactors To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"qrLum3.0.NC7.N_pCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In the 1950s, Teller designed reactors with "inherent >safety," meaning "its safety must be guaranteed by the laws of nature >and >not merely by the details of its engineering" - F. Dyson. General >Atomics >built prototype reactors with half the moderating hydrogen in the fuel >rods. In actual demonstrations, when the reactors were deliberately >put in >uncontrolled runaway conditions, they shut down in milliseconds, much >faster than any engineered design could ever achieve. .... >Why were these kinds of reactors not built? General Atomics built and still builds Triga reactors. As you quote, the Triga's special feature is that it can safely deliver a brief pulse of power safely and then it drops down by inherent design to low power. This is useful mainly to make a brief burst of neutrons for experiments. For a power producing reactor you want a controlled high level of power steadily. The Triga (by design) drops to low power. However, the pressurized water reactors, both US Navy and the much electric utility kinds, are designed to have a similar, but much weaker, negative temperature coefficient; that is, as the reactor temperature increases, the chain reaction multiplication factor decreases a bit, and the power then decreases. The purpose of this design is to make the reactor safer and easier to control. It is noteworthy that the Chernobyl reactor was of a different design that lacks this feature. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 00:55:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA01987; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:53:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:53:00 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:00:25 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: EV size? Resent-Message-ID: <"a-ELL1.0.zU.iHqCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:44 PM 12/9/0, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >Wouldn't it be nice if someone could persuade KS him to join us in this >dialog!! Personally, I hope not until after next week. I am buried and shouldn't even be reading this list right now! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 05:37:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12303; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:37:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:37:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:39:27 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: Resent-Message-ID: <"2lJI51.0.903.JSuCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:06 AM 12/10/2000 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >I would like to keep this thread going. I'm much more interested in LENR's >than OU energy. I sure hope KS joins us. THAT would keep it going a while. >Scott, I would like to know what Hal Puthoff has to say about both A-B and >the differnet types of electricity. We've talked about the A-B effect a lot. It is important to realize that the effect is entirely a quantum one. By that I mean only the PHASE of the electron's wavefunction is affected by the A field surrounding the solenoid. There is no force exerted on the electrons and they are therefore not deflected at all by the A field. The shift in their diffraction pattern occurs only because of this phase shift. There does seem to be a LOT of ongoing discussion about the A-B effect but nobody doubts that it is real (I think). Different types of electricity? It is certainly possible to produce an electric current either by moving + charges one way or by moving - charges the opposite way...but everybody knows that. I guess I don't understand this question. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 08:36:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27450; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:35:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:35:42 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:40:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Flying Drones In-Reply-To: <20001210083325.24356.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zGE09.0.pi6.T3xCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy! Ran across an interesting article on flying drone technologies that I thought some of you might be interested in. One of the devices mentioned was made by General Atomics, and called The Predator. It can evidently fly 3,500 km at an altitude of 26,000 ft, hover for 24 hrs, taking pictures and collecting other sensory data (spying), and fly back. Those are pretty impressive specs. Anyone care to speculate on what kind of birdseed that thing is eating? According to the article, there are even more powerful drones in the later stages of development. They couldn't be powered by conventional fuels, could they? I had read about a year or so ago of some really tiny flying drones (they could fit in the palm of your hand) that had been developed for the military that were fitted with cameras, and after launching, would transmit photos of whatever they flew over to a receiver hooked up to a battlefield version of a laptop computer. These drones were very short ranged (a couple of miles at best), had no flight control, and could only be used one time (they were really expensive, too). The ones in this article however, seem to be much more capable. http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,7712-412,00.shtml There is also a link to a website for the Unmanned Vehicle System International Organization. http://www.auvsi.org/ Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 09:08:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04298; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:08:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:08:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3A33E590.5276 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:20:32 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flying Drones References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qc3In1.0.131.2YxCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T. Huffman wrote: > > Ahoy! > > Ran across an interesting article on flying drone technologies that I > thought some of you might be interested in. One of the devices mentioned > was made by General Atomics, and called The Predator. It can evidently fly > 3,500 km at an altitude of 26,000 ft, hover for 24 hrs, taking pictures and > collecting other sensory data (spying), and fly back. Those are pretty > impressive specs. Anyone care to speculate on what kind of birdseed that > thing is eating? According to the article, there are even more powerful > drones in the later stages of development. They couldn't be powered by > conventional fuels, could they? > > I had read about a year or so ago of some really tiny flying drones (they > could fit in the palm of your hand) that had been developed for the > military that were fitted with cameras, and after launching, would transmit > photos of whatever they flew over to a receiver hooked up to a battlefield > version of a laptop computer. These drones were very short ranged (a > couple of miles at best), had no flight control, and could only be used one > time (they were really expensive, too). The ones in this article however, > seem to be much more capable. > > http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,7712-412,00.shtml > > There is also a link to a website for the Unmanned Vehicle System > International Organization. Here's a good list of UAV web pages: http://www.airnet.cwc.net/uavs.html Predator is fairly old technology and draws a good deal from cruise missle design. It was used to rescue the pilot who was shot down in Yugoslavia. Indeed, a few Predators have been shot down. Now take a look at Dark Star! There's a real cool UAV! It plays an interesting part in Clancy's latest book, "The Bear and the Dragon". There are indeed insect size UAV's under development for support of ground troops. No more kicking the door down and hoping that the enemy is not expecting you. Your little dragonfly video camera will tell the foot soldier exactly what to expect. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 10:37:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32506; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:36:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:36:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001210133652.0079bce0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:36:52 -0500 To: Lynn Kurtz , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud In-Reply-To: <190787627.20001209103440 imap2.asu.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gdyNb1.0.qx7.kqyCw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >I do not believe that for a minute. Skeptics are somewhat, but not >entirely, effective at silencing the inventors who CLAIM to have such >devices but in fact do not have them. The first self running >generator, if there ever is such a thing, will change the world if the >details are not kept secret. I agree completely. Cold fusion is the most extreme modern example of supression, but this suppression has not worked. Research continues, and thanks to the Internet anyone in the world can learn the facts about cold fusion. Skeptics have effectively stopped most cold fusion researchers in the U.S., by intimidation, firing, and by refusing to publish or fund the research. Miles and many other leading researchers have been literally ordered out of the labs. HOWEVER this has not stopped cold fusion from making gradual progress or publishing in a few places. Cold fusion is much easier to suppress than some of the alleged antigravity devices because they supposedly work dramatically, whereas cold fusion is about a dramatic as a leaky faucet. In the past, many scientific and technological breakthroughs were effectively supressed, sometimes for decades, for political reasons. Things like oral contraceptives, for example, were held back 40 to 60 years. Many discoveries may be been lost. But I do not think this can happen so easily today. Nobody could stop it any more than the US >government has been able to stop the spread of modern encryption >technology such as PGP. Put the plans on the internet and it will be >all over. That's an interesting example. However when you put PGP on the net, it is functional -- it works -- whereas an antigravity device would have to built, which is much harder. Putting "plans" for a CF device on the net would not allow people to build them any more easily than they can today. I hope that dangerous things like sarin gas or nuclear bombs are not easier to make than they use to be, with information on the net. I wouldn't know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 13:00:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19494; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:58:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:58:45 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:58:34 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me - Instrument free designs Message-ID: <20001210205834.A486 bsdi.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208101730.00bda418 pop.mindspring.com> <3A3150EC.ACD53F5@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A3150EC.ACD53F5 bellsouth.net>; from commengr@bellsouth.net on Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:21:48PM -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <"ervbz3.0.Sm4.5w-Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:21:48PM -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > Scott Little quotes Bearden: > > > > >See the non sequitur? Measurement is not accurate until there is no > > >measurement needed. > > > > I cannot understand Bearden. > > I have tried for years to understand Bearden and I think I am > beginning to get an inkling at what he's trying to say. When you > place a battery across a pair of wires, the potential appears at > the end of the wires before current flows. I think Tom claims > that energy can be tapped FROM THE POTENTIAL ALONE and this power > comes from the ZPF. > That was my understanding too. The notion was that once the potential has been produced (at the speed of light), then the electrons start to flow. In order to flow they must be on the surface of the conductor, but normally they are in the centre. There is therefore a finite amount of time between the potential being raised and the electron flow. IIRC he maintained that it was possible to produce a conductor with characteristics that made this interval longer than, say, copper. The goal of course is to disconnect the battery and connect something else in its place to "consume" any electron pushing/pulling power of the potential. IIRC he motioned that with fancy switching electonics it may be able to switch between batteries and consumers fast enough to may use of the potential in the battery. Also, because electrons never flow through the battery (only through the circuit once the batteries have been disconnected) the battery never runs down. Joe -- Josef Karthauser [joe FreeBSD.org, joe@tao.org.uk] ......... FreeBSD: The power to change the world ........ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 13:04:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21130; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:02:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:02:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:02:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"2esOA3.0.4A5.iz-Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott Little wrote; > >Different types of electricity? It is certainly possible to >produce an electric current either by moving + charges one way or by >moving - charges the opposite way...but everybody knows that. I >guess I don't understand this question. > >I will repeat. Otto Schmitt told me that there were several >different types of electricity. I was talking to David Moon about it >this morning. We came up with three types: electron movement, hole >(were an electron should be) movement, and protron movement. The >question is are there any more? What is the nature of the energy >that Hal's invention, the one that utilizes the Josephson Juncture >to detect an energy that passes through a Faraday cage? Is this A >field the part of the wave that passes through the cage? or is it >the result of the destruction of the hertzian wave by the cage? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 13:14:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25953; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:13:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:13:38 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:12:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA25886 Resent-Message-ID: <"dlAhf3.0.KL6.18_Cw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:39:27 -0600: [snip] >We've talked about the A-B effect a lot. It is important to realize that >the effect is entirely a quantum one. By that I mean only the PHASE of the >electron's wavefunction is affected by the A field surrounding the >solenoid. There is no force exerted on the electrons and they are >therefore not deflected at all by the A field. Would they perhaps be deflected if they travelled parallel to the axis of the coil, rather than perpendicular to it? >The shift in their >diffraction pattern occurs only because of this phase shift. There does >seem to be a LOT of ongoing discussion about the A-B effect but nobody >doubts that it is real (I think). > >Different types of electricity? It is certainly possible to produce an >electric current either by moving + charges one way or by moving - charges >the opposite way...but everybody knows that. I guess I don't understand >this question. [snip] If Fred Sparber's LL's exist, then a current of these particles would constitute a different kind of electricity (as would a current of muons BTW). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 16:40:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28081; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3A344F1D.69EB bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:50:53 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flying Drones References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> <3A33E590.5276@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9nNfJ3.0.hs6.D82Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Now take a look at Dark Star! There's a real cool UAV! It plays an > interesting part in Clancy's latest book, "The Bear and the Dragon". One general in Clancy's book was really proud of his "smart pigs". What he spoke of was JSOW (try a search on that), a weapon system still under development during the Gulf War. This will ruin only a small part of the book. . . The Chinese had invaded Siberia with confidence. At one point they had almost 1000 tanks approaching the defending Russians. While the tanks were passing through a valley, a squadron of US planes (Russia had joined NATO at US urgence) flew near the valley and each released a number of UAV's and then returned to base. The UAVs, in turn, released their heat seaking bomblets once over the valley. The result was over 75% casualties to the attacking armor as the bomblets sought the hot engines. Over 700 tanks destroyed. Interesting thing is that this is not fiction. Rumor has it that these bomblets are even more sophisticated. They not only seek heat signatures; but, exclusively, the enemy's vehicles. Quite a weapon during a tank battle, eh? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 17:15:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04321; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:13:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:13:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3429A7.81F28D0A home.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:11:03 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flying Drones References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> <3A33E590.5276@bellsouth.net> <3A344F1D.69EB@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1553AC92ECE239C0831D06DA" Resent-Message-ID: <"rFu2T.0.N31.we2Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1553AC92ECE239C0831D06DA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Blanton wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > Now take a look at Dark Star! There's a real cool UAV! It plays an > > interesting part in Clancy's latest book, "The Bear and the Dragon". >... Or see the movie "Runaway" with Tom Sellick. Lotsa small robots and UAV's there! Hoyt Stearns Phoenix -- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 --------------1553AC92ECE239C0831D06DA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="hoyt-stearns.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hoyt-stearns.vcf" begin:vcard n:Stearns Jr.;Hoyt tel;fax:602 996 9088 tel;home:602 996 1717 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 adr:;;4131 E. Cannon Dr.;Phoenix;Arizona;85028-4122;US version:2.1 email;internet:hoyt-stearns home.com fn:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 end:vcard --------------1553AC92ECE239C0831D06DA-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 17:48:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12546; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:45:25 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flying Drones Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:44:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3ac83tg0afkounobjh9ogad6t9sgkrqb3l 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> <3A33E590.5276@bellsouth.net> <3A344F1D.69EB@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3A344F1D.69EB bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA12501 Resent-Message-ID: <"q_F6p1.0.y33.r63Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:50:53 -0800: [snip] >were passing through a valley, a squadron of US planes (Russia had >joined NATO at US urgence) Last I looked, Russia wasn't part of NATO ;) > >Interesting thing is that this is not fiction. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 17:51:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13322; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:48:19 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:49:12 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"eD9Wf2.0.4G3.Z93Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:02 PM 12/10/2000 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >I will repeat. Otto Schmitt told me that there were several different >types of electricity. I was talking to David Moon about it this morning. >We came up with three types: electron movement, hole (were an electron >should be) movement, and protron movement. The question is are there any more? Probably there are some more because there are other charged entities. For example you could have a stream of quarks or muons and that would constitute an electrical current. But, since they ALL necessarily consist of charge movement, the energetics associated with such movement will surely be identical. That is, it will always require qV of work to move q amount of charge through a potential difference of V. > What is the nature of the energy that Hal's invention, the one that > utilizes the Josephson Juncture to detect an energy that passes through a > Faraday cage? I'm not the expert but I can tell you that Hal's invention utilizes A-phi waves, which are comprised only of A (the vector potential) and phi (the scalar potential). There's no E or H in these waves, hence they should pass effortlessly thru a Faraday cage. When the A-phi wave falls upon a Josephson Junction, it should modulate the current thru the junction in much the same way as the current in a SQUID is modulated by the A that surrounds flux passing thru the SQUID's loop. BTW, rigorously speaking there's no energy in these A-phi waves...only information. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 17:57:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15615; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:54:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:54:56 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:56:54 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"m7Dmp.0.up3.mF3Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:12 AM 12/11/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >solenoid. There is no force exerted on the electrons and they are > >therefore not deflected at all by the A field. > >Would they perhaps be deflected if they travelled parallel to the axis of >the coil, rather than perpendicular to it? I assume we're talking about an infinite solenoid, where the B is exactly zero outside. That's the essence of the A-B effect...it proves that the electrons are affected by the A and only the A. Electrons traveling parallel to the axis of the solenoid (outside it, of course) would not be deflected (because there's no B out there) and they would not suffer any phase shift either (because the phase shift is proportional to the integral of A.dl along the electron's path and, since A and dl are orthogonal, the dot product is zero). Of course, there's usually some subtle aspect of these EM questions that escapes my attention at first glance so there could also be something I'm missing here.... Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 18:24:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24202; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:21:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:21:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001210212134.007afb70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bearden's reply to me In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208172735.02cd0df8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jYLnL.0.0w5.be3Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >win any modern scientist to his cause? I recently saw a good analogy in >Michael Crichton's "Travels". Some contemporary aborigines who live >separate from modern civilization are familiar with jets passing overhead, >but do not believe that they are full of people, and no arguments can >convince them. Judging by his book "Rising Sun" I have a very low opinion of Crichton's knowlege of anthropology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 18:40:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29832; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:38:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:38:10 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:37:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.2000121019 3012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA29621 Resent-Message-ID: <"EyLev1.0.2I7.Iu3Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:49:12 -0600: [snip] >Probably there are some more because there are other charged entities. For >example you could have a stream of quarks or muons and that would >constitute an electrical current. But, since they ALL necessarily consist >of charge movement, the energetics associated with such movement will >surely be identical. That is, it will always require qV of work to move q >amount of charge through a potential difference of V. This is true of course, however currents comprising different particles would likely interact with matter in very different ways. These differences could then be the origin of stories regarding different "types" of current. [snip] >surrounds flux passing thru the SQUID's loop. BTW, rigorously speaking >there's no energy in these A-phi waves...only information. [snip] Which IMO may mean that the possibility is open for information transfer FTL. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 18:58:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03304; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:54:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:54:36 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:54:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA03268 Resent-Message-ID: <"a0JhH.0.Tp.i74Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:56:54 -0600: [snip] >>Would they perhaps be deflected if they travelled parallel to the axis of >>the coil, rather than perpendicular to it? [snip] >Electrons traveling parallel to the axis of the solenoid (outside it, of >course) would not be deflected (because there's no B out there) and they >would not suffer any phase shift either (because the phase shift is >proportional to the integral of A.dl along the electron's path and, since A >and dl are orthogonal, the dot product is zero). Of course, there's >usually some subtle aspect of these EM questions that escapes my attention >at first glance so there could also be something I'm missing here.... [snip] I was thinking about toroidal transformers, where a voltage is induced in a coil passing through "the hole in the doughnut". This appears to be purely the result of the A field. Anyway the E field is parallel with the A field, so I guessed that the same would be true in the AB effect. So I thought the A field would slow down electrons on one side of the coil, and speed them up on the other side, resulting in a phase difference and if this were true, then perhaps it would push them aside if they were travelling parallel to the axis of the coil. However while writing the above, I realised that the error in the analogy lay with the fact that it is dA/dt that results in an E field, not just the A field by itself. IOW one would only see something if the current in the AB coil were changing. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 20:11:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA31971; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:07:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:07:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:07:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aXtso3.0.Mp7.QC5Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > FROM: TOM BEARDEN > > Sujet : Information > > Date : 09/12/00 08:41:08 Paris, Madrid > > To: Jnaudin509 a... (Jean-Louis Naudin) > > > > Dear Jean-Louis: > > > > Some fellows in your discussion groups raised the question of my use > > of energy flow (Poynting diverged component versus Heaviside > > nondiverged component) That was probably my message about "Major error in MEG paper" on JLNlabs on November 17th. I must thank Mr. Bearden for taking the time to give such a detailed reply. I know he's overloaded with his current project, and his time is that much more valuable. If Mr. Bearden reads this, please be aware that I am an EE, not a physicist, so my knowledge is at the level of the Halliday/Resnik text. Also, I've been following fringe science for awhile, and I'm extremely aware of the problems of "pseudoskepticism." Yet I think I see a genuine error, so I don't want to keep quiet. And if it is *me* who is wrong here, then I need to correct my concepts to bring them in line with Mr. Bearden's. I suppose I could just throw out what I know, and adopt what Mr. Bearden says, but that requires something akin to religious belief. I'd much rather MERGE what I know with Mr. Bearden's information (after of course removing any errors which prevent such a merge.) If that can be done, then I suspect that many more people will benefit than just myself. > > To understand EM energy flow around EM circuits, I strongly suggest one put > > aside the textbooks' interpretations until one checks the original > > applicable papers of Heaviside and of Poynting, who independently and > > essentially simultaneously discovered the flow of energy through space > > in the 1880s. That's what I'm trying to understand. I best think in visual terms, and that's why I "see" an error in the MEG paper. Math requires interpretation... but visual images often make everything instantly clear, if they are accurate and not oversimplified. When I visualize a picture of the Poynting field surrounding a simple circuit (a battery and a resistor), I don't see any huge, unexpected amounts of energy. Instead, every line of energy-flow which is emitted by the battery ends up diving inwards towards the surface of the resistor. If this is wrong, then I'd like to know what's right. I'm looking for an ACCURATE drawing of the flow of energy. If the battery throws huge amounts of energy out into space which aren't all gathered in by the resistor, then I need an image which shows that. Last night I sat down and sketched out a large bunch of GIF images which illustrate the well-known fields around a simple electric circuit. I've been meaning to do this for years as part of my electricity pages: WHERE DOES ENERGY FLOW IN SIMPLE CIRCUITS? http://www.amasci.com/elect/poynt/poynt.html Note that I drew all these field-lines by hand using MSpaint, so they are only accurate at the large scale. Please look at figure 7. It shows the Poynting field around the circuit. The energy pours out of the battery and into space as both the historical EM papers and Mr. Bearden say. It flows PARALLEL to the connecting wires just as they say. However, there are two important issues not mentioned in the MEG paper: The energy flows out of the battery, but then it all dives into the resistor. EVERY flow-line of energy which starts out at the battery, ends up on the resistor. None of them fly out into empty space never to return. FIGURE 7 http://www.amasci.com/elect/poynt/fig7.gif If my figure 7 is wrong, then it will mislead everyone here. If someone can tell me the nature of my error, then I can draw a new version which DOES show the unconventional effects which Mr. Bearden is talking about. Note that the concepts in figure 7 hang together with all the other concepts pictured in the article, so if there is something fundamentally wrong with figure 7, then there is something wrong with the e-field and b-field diagrams too. > > Particularly see John D. Kraus, Electromagnetics, Fourth Edn., McGraw-Hill, > > New York, 1992, Figure 12-60, a and b, p. 578. Kraus shows a good drawing > > of the huge energy flow filling all space around the two conductors of > > a transmission line, with almost all of that energy flow not > > intercepted by the circuit at all and thus not diverged into the > > circuit to power it, but just "wasted." I *think* I've seen this figure in ELECTROMAGNETICS before. I don't own the book though. If I recall, it shows the same thing as my figure 7: that all the energy emitted by the battery ends up being absorbed by the resistor. The energy flows parallel to the wires, but it doesn't fly off into space, instead it dives down into the surface of the resistor. > > So your respondent was in error when he spoke of that little "dip" in > > the flow as what was "wasted" and the "losses". He got it exactly > > reversed. Here is the straightforward way to deal with it. Simply > > separate the entire energy flow vector into two vector components: a > > very large component vector parallel to the conductor and a very > > small vertical component vector pointing vertically into the wire > > from outside. Ah, that may be the key to this whole controversy. The portion of the energy-flow which points vertically inwards is genuinely small in the region surrounding the connecting wires. However, it is very large in the region surrounding the resistor. At the resistor, things are opposite, and the parallel flow is tiny, while the vertical/inwards energy flow becomes large. Figure 7 shows that the energy flow which runs parallel to the connecting wires TURNS, and it all dives perpendicularly into the resistor. None of the Poynting vector lines are directed off into space, instead they are directed inwards towards the resistor. As I said before, if this is wrong, knowing that it's wrong does not help me. Instead I'd like to see a drawing of what is right. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 20:19:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02465; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:16:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:16:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:11:39 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: A-B communication device (was The existance of EV's) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AH3Pd3.0.Rc.TK5Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 19:49 10/12/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 03:02 PM 12/10/2000 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >> What is the nature of the energy that Hal's invention, the one that >> utilizes the Josephson Juncture to detect an energy that passes through a >> Faraday cage? > >I'm not the expert but I can tell you that Hal's invention utilizes A-phi >waves, which are comprised only of A (the vector potential) and phi (the >scalar potential). There's no E or H in these waves, hence they should >pass effortlessly thru a Faraday cage. When the A-phi wave falls upon a >Josephson Junction, it should modulate the current thru the junction in >much the same way as the current in a SQUID is modulated by the A that >surrounds flux passing thru the SQUID's loop. BTW, rigorously speaking >there's no energy in these A-phi waves...only information. Was this device experimentally demonstrated? I noticed that you used the expression "it _should_ modulate the current..." and I wondered if it had been tested and proven, or was theory only? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 20:28:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04948; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:23:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:23:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:24:16 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210221641.0323ede0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"yuQUK1.0.ED1.nQ5Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:54 PM 12/11/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I was thinking about toroidal transformers, where a voltage is induced in a >coil passing through "the hole in the doughnut". This appears to be purely >the result of the A field. Anyway the E field is parallel with the A field, >so I guessed that the same would be true in the AB effect. So I thought the >A field would slow down electrons on one side of the coil, and speed them up >on the other side, resulting in a phase difference and if this were true, >then perhaps it would push them aside if they were travelling parallel to >the axis of the coil. > >However while writing the above, I realised that the error in the analogy >lay with the fact that it is dA/dt that results in an E field, not just the >A field by itself. IOW one would only see something if the current in the AB >coil were changing. I'm pretty sure all that is right. I used to think that the toroidal xfrm was proof that A was real but recently Ibison showed me that you can totally ignore the A and just look at the changing B inside the core. Maxwell's eqns tells you that the changing B makes an E field (also changing in this case) and that E field does extend outside the toroidal core where it can push on electrons in the secondary coil. In other words, for ALL classical EM cases, A and phi are doomed to remain merely a computational convenience that helps us figure out what the real movers and shakers, the E and B fields are doing. Actually even that picture is probably not correct as pointed out by Jefimenko. He puts up a good argument that everything is driven by E fields...and that B fields are just mathematical conveniences for calculating the complex effects of E fields from moving charges. If this seems wrong to you, just remember: when you transform into the frame of an electron moving thru a magnetic field, the only possible force you can perceive in that frame is an electrostatic one! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 20:46:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11808; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:44:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:44:02 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:44:55 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A-B communication device (was The existance of EV's) In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"Za0xB.0.Mu2.Ik5Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:11 PM 12/11/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: > >I'm not the expert but I can tell you that Hal's invention utilizes A-phi > >waves, which are comprised only of A (the vector potential) and phi (the > >scalar potential). There's no E or H in these waves, hence they should > >pass effortlessly thru a Faraday cage. When the A-phi wave falls upon a > >Josephson Junction, it should modulate the current thru the junction in > >much the same way as the current in a SQUID is modulated by the A that > >surrounds flux passing thru the SQUID's loop. BTW, rigorously speaking > >there's no energy in these A-phi waves...only information. > >Was this device experimentally demonstrated? I noticed that you used >the expression "it _should_ modulate the current..." and I wondered if >it had been tested and proven, or was theory only? We've never tested it but we are planning to in the near future. There are rumors of a secret gov't project (years ago) and they have it that the basic effect was found to work. We don't know what, if anything, the gov't has done with it since. We have studied the problem "on paper" for quite a while and thus far it doesn't appear to be forbidden or anything. It is curious to note that the A-phi wave is completely unlike the regular EM wave in which both E and H are transverse to the direction of propagation. The A-phi wave is more like a sound wave: phi is distributed like pressure is in a sound wave and A is analogous to the displacement vector in a sound wave. It is not obvious how to generate a pure A-phi wave either! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 23:35:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31404; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:33:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:33:15 -0800 Message-ID: <20001211073309.9808.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:33:09 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Flying Drones To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"HP4kW.0.cg7.xC8Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Michael T. Huffman" wrote: > Ran across an interesting article on flying drone technologies that I > thought some of you might be interested in. One of the devices mentioned > > was made by General Atomics, and called The Predator. It can evidently > fly > 3,500 km at an altitude of 26,000 ft, hover for 24 hrs, taking pictures > and > collecting other sensory data (spying), and fly back. Those are pretty > impressive specs. Anyone care to speculate on what kind of birdseed that > thing is eating? Yes, this is another General Atomics product. It has a reciprocating engine and runs on gasoline. The sophisitication is in the sensors, guidance and data management and processing. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 10 23:54:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA03369; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:52:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:52:53 -0800 Message-ID: <20001211075246.1587.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:52:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: The existance of EV's To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"DIUYk3.0.Zq.KV8Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty wrote: ..... > When I visualize a picture of the Poynting field surrounding a simple > circuit (a battery and a resistor), I don't see any huge, unexpected > amounts of energy. Instead, every line of energy-flow which is emitted > by > the battery ends up diving inwards towards the surface of the resistor. > If this is wrong, then I'd like to know what's right. Bill, you have it right. > see John D. Kraus, Electromagnetics, Fourth Edn., McGraw-Hill, > New York, 1992, Figure 12-60, a and b, p. 578. Kraus shows a good > drawing > of the huge energy flow filling all space around the two conductors > of a transmission line, with almost all of that energy flow not > intercepted by the circuit at all and thus not diverged into the > circuit to power it, but just "wasted." > > I *think* I've seen this figure in ELECTROMAGNETICS before. I don't own > the book though. If I recall, it shows the same thing as my figure 7: > that all the energy emitted by the battery ends up being absorbed by the > resistor. The energy flows parallel to the wires, but it doesn't fly off > into space, instead it dives down into the surface of the resistor. >.... > The portion of the energy-flow which points vertically inwards is > genuinely small in the region surrounding the connecting wires. This is correct. The one thing you overlook is variation in time. There is a time wherein the the EM field propagates along the conductors. At the same time the EM field is filling up space. The diverging (along the conductors and outward from them) is setting up at the speed of light (in the corresponding medium) the E & M field that will eventually be the static field when steady state is reached. Of course, true steady state is never reached---that takes infinite time. But there is a diverging Poynting field from the transient that propagates outward, still on its mission to full the universe with weak dipole fields and such. This is, of course, just the EM "radiation" launched by the transient. Bearden gets this transient part wrong. He appears on the face of it not to understand propagation, delay, radiation and such, whether in simple or in complicated systems. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 01:01:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19162; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:58:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:58:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-B communication device (was The existance of EV's) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:58:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.2000121007 2708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA19137 Resent-Message-ID: <"nXbes3.0.Kh4.9T9Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:44:55 -0600: [snip] >We have studied the problem "on paper" for quite a while and thus far it >doesn't appear to be forbidden or anything. It is curious to note that the >A-phi wave is completely unlike the regular EM wave in which both E and H >are transverse to the direction of propagation. The A-phi wave is more >like a sound wave: phi is distributed like pressure is in a sound wave and >A is analogous to the displacement vector in a sound wave. It is not >obvious how to generate a pure A-phi wave either! [snip] >From memory, Hal's approach is basically magnetic, i.e. based on coils. I get the impression that the field itself is what Tesla was working with in his later years, but his was primarily a capacitive approach. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 01:07:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA21285; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:06:38 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:06:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA21263 Resent-Message-ID: <"9h8Wk.0.RC5.Ua9Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:07:52 -0800 (PST): [snip] > WHERE DOES ENERGY FLOW IN SIMPLE CIRCUITS? > http://www.amasci.com/elect/poynt/poynt.html [snip] Hi Bill, Your "simple circuit" leads me to wonder if Poynting flow exists with steady state fields, or only with changing fields. If the former are included, then what to think of the Poynting flow resulting from a magnet in a constant E field? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 01:10:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA21771; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:09:41 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: your energy machine Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:09:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA21748 Resent-Message-ID: <"CiIVZ.0.5K5.Ld9Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:06:04 -0600: [snip] TB said: >>Doesn't matter what one does with the normal output, or in what kind of >>load. We have a MEG with a smoothed DC output of 96 watts, absolutely >>normal electrical power. You can power lights, run a little DC motor, [snip] This was the bit that I found most enlightening. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 05:47:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA18853; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:45:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:45:57 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001211072928.03840400 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:44:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: The existance of EV's In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FqDRA.0.Qc4.LgDDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:06 PM 12/11/00 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Your "simple circuit" leads me to wonder if Poynting flow exists with steady >state fields, or only with changing fields. If the former are included, then >what to think of the Poynting flow resulting from a magnet in a constant E >field? It's real. There are two possibilities: 1. If the magnet is located symmetrically with the source of the E field (as it is in Feynmans's disk "paradox"), then the Poynting flow makes a complete loop and energy "circulates" around in the system. BTW, this also means that the fields have a steady value of angular momentum, which is a vital part of the disk "paradox". 2. If the magnet is located asymmetrically w.r.t the E field... there can arise a net linear Poynting flow in the fields. Associated with it is a net linear momentum in the fields (the volume integral of ExH). Now here's the interesting part: A little-recognized phenomenon called "hidden momentum" arises in the currents that are creating the magnetic field (ALL magnetic fields are created by currents). This hidden momentum precisely cancels the linear momentum in the fields AND it has associated with it an energy flow which precisely balances the Poynting flow in the fields. Hidden momentum was "discovered" quite recently (as classical EM discoveries go) in the 1960's by Shockley and James ("Try Simplest Cases" Discovery of "Hidden Momentum" Forces on "Magnetic Currents", Shockley and James, Phys Rev. Lett. Vol 18, No 20, 15 MAY 1967, p. 876). Important work on this phenomenon continues in this decade (Hidden momentum of a relativistic fluid carying current in an external electric field, V. Hnizdo, Am. J. Phys. 65 (1) January 1997, p. 92). Hidden momentum really puts the brakes on all these ExH space drives that folks keep talking about. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 05:59:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22224; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:55:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:55:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3A34DE73.1CCF39 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:02:27 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Flying Drones References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210111842.00a05d00 pop3.atlantic.net> <3A33E590.5276@bellsouth.net> <3A344F1D.69EB@bellsouth.net> <3ac83tg0afkounobjh9ogad6t9sgkrqb3l@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HO6I63.0.AR5.ZpDDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:50:53 -0800: > [snip] > >were passing through a valley, a squadron of US planes (Russia had > >joined NATO at US urgence) > > Last I looked, Russia wasn't part of NATO ;) Not Nyet! :) > >Interesting thing is that this is not fiction. Sorry, I meant that the JSOW weapons system is not fiction. Neither is Dark Star, BTW. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 06:50:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05965; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 06:49:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 06:49:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3A34FEA9.ED702B08 gte.net> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:20:08 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lynn Kurtz CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud References: <190787627.20001209103440@imap2.asu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ADmqT1.0.7T1.RbEDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, There is a limit in skepticism or even criticisms after which any absence of counterattack on ethical grounds is complicity by the victim. This is the case of Santilli's hadronic reactors and their independently certified "commercial over-unity" http://www.santillimagnegas.com The reactors (many of them) are available in Florida for everybody to see; they are now even in production for sale. Any doubt of their large commercial over-unity is just human trash. Because of this evidence, when faced with criticisms or skepticism's on the hadronic reactors we first provide a chance to get all needed facts. After that, if the criticisms or skepticisms continue, WE AT ON ETHICAL GROUNDSY, because, again, silence or gentle response under these conditions becomes complicity William F. Pound Institute for Basic Research PS. It is symptomatic that nobody from Vortex has asked to personally visit and measure the large commercial over-unity of Santilli's hadronic reactors while I see rivers of words going on other, comparatively truly marginal and debatable reactors. I begin to get suspicious on this. It is clearly fishy. Lynn Kurtz wrote: > WB> Hostile skeptics can permanently silence any modern inventor who has a > WB> REAL o/u or antigravity device. Just accuse that inventor of running a > WB> scam. > > Can you give any examples? Who has such a device? > > I do not believe that for a minute. Skeptics are somewhat, but not > entirely, effective at silencing the inventors who CLAIM to have such > devices but in fact do not have them. The first self running > generator, if there ever is such a thing, will change the world if the > details are not kept secret. Nobody could stop it any more than the US > government has been able to stop the spread of modern encryption > technology such as PGP. Put the plans on the internet and it will be > all over. > > --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 07:41:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23059; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:40:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001211102915.02bd0a30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:40:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Teller's 'Inherently safe' Triga fission reactors In-Reply-To: <20001210083325.24356.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uZxRH3.0.De5.WLFDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >General Atomics built and still builds Triga reactors. That's what Dyson said in the rest of the quote I posted. >As you quote, the Triga's special feature is that it can safely deliver a >brief pulse of power safely and then it drops down by inherent design to >low power. This is useful mainly to make a brief burst of neutrons for >experiments. > >For a power producing reactor you want a controlled high level of power >steadily. The Triga (by design) drops to low power. However, the >pressurized water reactors, both US Navy and the much electric utility >kinds, are designed to have a similar, but much weaker, negative >temperature coefficient . . . So, a Triga design cannot be used in a power reactor? It is inherently impossible? Dyson did not say it could be used for power. His point was that a longer period of free innovation may have allowed better designs to evolve. The early history of most technologies resembles biological evolution, with a brief flowering of many improbable designs followed by a rapid winnowing out. The "winning" species or design may not be the "best" one, because contingency and incumbency play a large role both kinds of evolution. See S. J. Gould, "The Panda's Thumb of Technology." (As he says, the comparison between biology and technology can only be pushed so far.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 07:50:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26409; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:48:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:48:52 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001211094335.04c29210 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:47:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud In-Reply-To: <3A34FEA9.ED702B08 gte.net> References: <190787627.20001209103440 imap2.asu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Ih1Y2.0.YS6.aTFDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:20 AM 12/11/00 -0500, Institute for Basic Research wrote: >PS. It is symptomatic that nobody from Vortex has asked to personally visit >and measure the large commercial over-unity of Santilli's hadronic reactors >while I see rivers of words going on other, comparatively truly marginal and >debatable reactors. I begin to get suspicious on this. It is clearly fishy. I thought it was common knowledge that Santilli's thing was not "mysteriously o-u"...i.e. that it derives its apparent excess energy from the caloric value of the sugar solution it consumes. Such a device is not what we're trying to achieve here on vortex. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 09:59:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18810; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:54:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:54:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:24:13 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A350DBD.ADAFC858 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"qJ_kE1.0.qb4.SJHDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortex, Ever wake up with a "eureka" kind of idea, only to find out, after wasting hours of time, that you are overlooking some very simple physical principal that keeps the thing from working as envisioned? Maybe someone out there in vortex land can spare me some time by quickly shooting down this idea that I woke up with this morning - and just can't get out of mind. Consider two well-known technologies: 1.) THERMIONIC converter 2.) LINAC In the thermionic converter, high temperature heat is directly converted into electricity by, in effect, "boiling" off electrons from a refractory emitting surface. The electrons cross a partial vacuum to be collected on a cooled surface at a lower "work function." Unfortunately, this "edison effect" is less than 10% efficient. It produces very high current at very small potential 2-5 volts. In the linac, a lower voltage beam of electrons is accelerated down a tube that is segmented into chambers. The acceleration is accomplished by means of the sequential pumping of rf energy into tube (in the microwave range). The STRAW MAN: Lets say you have a thermionic-like converter that is turned inside out. It is a refractory tube of high l/d ratio that is heated from the outside and insulated on the outside so that all of the heat rejection must occur from inside (down the axis) of the capillary tube. Now, of course, this won't work at all because a dense electron cloud will form in the tube and there is no mechanism to extract it. But next we add magnets at each end- so that an intense magnetic flux extends down the axis of the tube. Still no help. But the next feature is to add an electron gun at one end - a simple low voltage high amp gun that fires down the center of the capillary tube, at say 1kv and 1 amp - and also add a collector at the other end. Of course, you must start up the ebeam well before you heat the capillary tube, but then, what happens to the beam once the tube is heated? As the ebeam is of much higher voltage than the work function of the tube, the beam will totally suppress electron emission and consequently any cooling of the tube must only be accomplished by radiation, i.e. an intense EM spectra in the infared range. For simplicity, let's say the tube alloy is engineered to emit strongly at a wavelength of 2.5 microns and that it is also micromachined so that it has undulating internal ridges that are also 2.5 microns peak-to-peak. If it is, say a 10 inch long tube, then you will have 100,000 internal amplification ridges. For the sake of simplicity, let's say that each radiated infared photon has an energy of 2 ev. The question is, then, what would keep the reversed thermionic tube from being so implemented that it would interact with an externally applied ebeam in the same way as if it were a Linac? i.e. the interaction would accomplish sequential EM pumping of the beam so that the initial 1 kv beam would emerge with up to 200 kv? There must be something simple that I'm missing here such as a "coupling" issue between IR radiation and an ebeam. Thanks in advance to anyone that can address this. As you can see, the weekend holiday parties are probably taking a toll on those already-depleted neurons! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 10:19:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27261; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:10:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:10:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:08:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: "Pathological" skepticism Resent-Message-ID: <"FVklm2.0.tf6.TYHDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >>From Vortex-L rule #2. >> >> ***{If you intend to interpret the above as banning the use of words such >> as "bogus," or "nonsense," or "ridiculous," or "absurd," etc., > >It's not the individual words, it's the overall action. Let me clarify. > >Jed presented a possible anomaly for discussion and perhaps experimental >testing. You immediately adopted a position of disbelief clearly tinged >with hostility ***{As I have already pointed out to you, bluntness does not imply hostility, though people do, in general, tend to be more blunt with people toward whom they feel hostility. More importantly, you are *not* justified in treating the bluntness that I admittedly exhibit toward Jed as an example of my generalized behavior toward others, and you have not the slightest shred of an excuse for such an error. I have been posting on this group for years, and you cannot possibly have failed to notice that I am much more gentle with others than I am with Jed. That means your attempt to treat this instance as if it represents the norm of my behavior toward others is a transparent smear rather than an honest mistake. By arguing in this way, you employ blatant selective thinking, and exhibit morally abhorrent behavior. You may not want to believe that, but it is a fact. The reality is that I do exactly what I have said I do: "I generally avoid such words (i.e., "nonsense," "bogus," "ridiculous," etc.) except when dealing with individuals who have introduced them directly and recently into the present discussion, or else, like Rothwell, have demonstrated by a lengthy and clear pattern of behavior that they may do so at any moment." In my view, "tit for tat" strictly applies--which means: if the other party becomes blunt, he cannot complain if I am blunt in return; and if he introduces pejoratives into the discussion, he cannot complain if I use them in return. That's the only principle you need in order to explain my posting behavior, where these sorts of issues are concerned. I would, however, add one qualifier: I always try to be nicer than the other person, and there is a limit to how far I will go in returning fire. If the other party hurls himself bodily into a cesspool, for example, I will *not* jump in after him. Instead, I will simply killfile the S.O.B. and be done with him. Bottom line: you have not the slightest shred of an excuse for hopping on my reply to Jed Rothwell about the "Mpemba effect" and treating the bluntness I exhibit there--and which I will continue to exhibit until he changes his own pattern of behavior--as if it is representative of my behavior toward others. --Mitchell Jones}*** , and have been arguing that there is no anomaly. You >presented a list of reasons why the anomaly cannot exist. You exclusively >argue against it, and present nothing in favor of it. ***{As we have discussed previously via private e-mail, I consider it a waste of time to play "devil's advocate." The reason is simple: a person who does not believe a proposition is a less efficient advocate for that proposition than is a person who does believe it, other things equal. Why so? Because the "devil's advocate" who believes the proposition is false will be prone to give up when he encounters arguments similar to those that convinced him that the proposition was false in the first place, whereas the person who sincerely believes the proposition will either (a) be aware of a refutation of those arguments, or (b) will be motivated to persistrently search for a refutation. That means the "devil's advocate" will, in general, give up before the believer, and implies that a debate between individuals who sincerely believe the propositions they are advocating will be more likely to reveal the truth than debates in which one or more of the participants do *not* believe what they are advocating. Result: if you really wanted vortex to be a forum that moved efficiently toward the truth, rather than a forum filled with people who share your wishy-washy view of reasoned discourse, you would seek to encourage the presence of people such as myself, rather than discourage their presence. --MJ}*** Apparently you >cannot see through the eyes of the opponent ***{I try to anticipate the arguments of an opponent and to word my statements in ways that forestall those arguments, and I daresay that I am *at least* as good at doing that as you. Nevertheless, the fact is that *no one* can completely foresee the resources that will be brought to bear by an intelligent and knowledgeable opponent who is attempting to defend a proposition that he sincerely believes. I have had many comeuppances in my life, as a result of some logical insight seeming to appear fully formed, like magic, in the mind of an opponent who truly believed what he was saying, and thereby demolish what had seemed to be a correct position on my part. As far as I am aware, however, no such outcome has *ever* occurred when I have argued with self-proclaimed "devil's advocates." That's why I do not waste my time playing such games, and is also why I have little interest in interacting with people who do. I lay my cards on the table, and I prefer to deal with people who do likewise. --MJ}*** , and ascribe negative >motivations. ***{I have no idea what the above fragment means, or why it was appended to the end of an otherwise fairly intelligible sentence. --MJ}*** To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness. ***{Since we discussed this matter extensively via e-mail, literally *years* ago, and since you had not a shred more of a basis for making such an assertion then that you apparently have now, I can only conclude that this is simply what you want to believe and that you are going to stick to it, facts be damned. But, hey, that's what "closemindedness" really means, now isn't it? :-) Bottom line: it is *you* who exhibit closemindedness, not me. --Mitchell Jones}*** Your >attitude towards others with differing opinion is not respectful. ***{As noted above, it depends on their behavior. Your insistence on treating my attitude toward Jed Rothwell as if it represents my attitude toward persons who behave decently is *obviously* false--so much so, in fact, that its falsehood can hardly have escaped your notice. That's why I see your continued pounding on this point as an indication that you are in the grip of a serious moral crisis. --MJ}*** You >accused Jed of believing in "polywater." To me that is clearly ridicule. ***{The position he has adopted can be sustained only if he ultimately has recourse to the notion that ordinary water is a mixture of substances that are presently unknown to science--i.e., "polywater." He does not yet believe that, but I am preparing a detailed response to his comments which I think would rectify that state of affairs, if he were less bullheaded than he is. In the meantime, the question would seem to be this: is it "ridicule" to point out an embarassing truth in the context of a discussion with a person who has the manners of a water buffalo? My answer is that it may well be, but that I don't really care: I believe in tit for tat, and Jed Rothwell routinely exhibits similar behavior, and worse, when responding to me. --MJ}*** >You seem to see the anomaly, if real, as being a threat to science. ***{It's not a threat to science per se, but if it were real, it would mean that a vast number of experiments--surely tens of thousands--that have demonstrated subtle effects using cells that contained water,would have to be revisited. Fortunately, water is already the most thoroughly investigated substance known to man, and thus the chances that ordinary water is really "polywater" are so vanishingly small as to scarcely be worthy of mentioning. In my view, in fact, it would be a more effective use of research funds to investigate Witches' brooms as a mode of transportation, than to delve into the non-issue of whether ordinary water (or heavy water, for that matter) is a single substance. --MJ}*** > >Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add up to >Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is something I >try to take action against if I notice it appearing on Vortex-L. ***{That sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't think it is what you are doing in the present instance. My view of the situation is that you have found it to be very difficult to make headway while arguing with me, and are treating that as a perceived affront to your supposed kingly status. However, you obviously cannot come right out and say that, and so instead you concoct this convoluted rationale about "the rules of the group" in an attempt to use implicit threats to force me into a more submissive mold. Well, to paraphrase Rothwell: Bzzzzt! It ain't gonna happen. Nobody ever succeeded in influencing me by merely indicating their displeasure, or by threatening to sever relations with me. Why not? Because I recognized long ago--long before you were born, unless I miss my guess--that such a path leads to a personality molded by the desires of other people, rather than by the dictates of reason. Result: I respond to reasoned argument or to a gun in my face, and to nothing else whatsoever, where disapproval of my personality is concerned. Thus if you think I ought to be more like you--i.e., more conventional in my behavior--I suggest that you take off your "moderator" hat, roll up your sleeves, and argue your case just like I and the other peons in this group have to do. Bottom line: I am open to reasoned criticisms on any grounds whatsoever, and will change behaviors that have been demonstrated to be wrong, but I am *not* open to social pressure or to empty threats. --MJ}*** > >I intended this list to be a haven for anomaly investigation and anomaly >testing. When an anomaly is presented, I want the group to essentially >say: > > "Could this be real? Let's look closer." ***{Sometimes, like it or not, the proper answer to "Could this be real?" is no, and sometimes what you find when you "look closer" is a detailed logical argument demonstrating that the proposed effect cannot be real. Moreover, that is *obvious*. That's why I say your behavoir suggests that you are in the throes of a moral crisis. What you are saying has a warm and fuzzy feel but makes no sense at all, unless we assume that your actual motivation is different from the reasons you are giving. --MJ}*** > >Those who don't wish to look closer can ignore the discussion. Those who >look closer should endevour to find arguements both for and against the >anomaly. ***{If the discussion is to move efficiently toward the truth, those who disbelieve the anomaly should argue against it, and those who believe it should argue for it. No one should be expected to defend any position other than the position he believes, whatever it may be, and any "rule" requiring such behavior is, in a word, nuts. And no, that does not mean a person ought to argue his position with blinders on. The fact of the matter is that a rational person, when arguing, tries to anticipate the arguments of his opponent, and to adjust his own statements in ways that render them less vulnerable to those arguments. But to say that an individual ought to abandon the intent to defend the side he believes before he is convinced that he is wrong, is ridiculous. A person who argues without a point of view, or worse, a person who argues against the point of view that he holds, is of little use in the search for truth. Encouraging such behavior makes exactly as much sense as it would make for a person, wrongly accused of murder, to entrust his defense to an attorney who believed that he was guilty. --MJ}*** If one person is CERTAIN that the anomaly is real, or another is >CERTAIN that it is not, then closemindedness interferes with the >discussion. ***{Not if the participants focus on the issue, rather than on irrelevancies such as whether they like the personality traits exhibited by their opponents. It is possible to be certain of a conclusion because of overwhelming evidence, rather than because of closemindedness. And it is also possible to be certain of a conclusion, and be wrong, without being closeminded. How do you tell the difference? Simple: if you demolish the position about which the individual felt certain, he will change his view if he is open minded, and he will cling to it if he is not openminded. Bottom line: closemindedness and certainty are *not* the same thing, and that, again, is *obvious*. --MJ}*** > >Anyone who quickly adopts an unshakable stance of disbelief against a >newly presented anomaly, ***{You have no evidence that I do that. When a person indicates strong belief, or even certainty, there is no implication that he is impervious to reason and, hence, "unshakeable" in his belief. If the course of a discussion reveals that his strong belief or even certainty was wrong, the openminded individual will alter his views, and the closeminded individual will not. My personal position on the matter of intellectual flexibility, in fact, is extreme: I define "my opinion" vis-a-vis an issue as equal to "the conclusion of the strongest argument that I know about that issue at a given moment." Result: if the lynchpin of the position I have been advocating is ripped away, as sometimes happens in the course of a discussion, and if the situation is clear, then I will reverse my field *instantly*, and begin to argue in favor of the new view as forcefully as, just before, I argued in favor of the opposite one. (If you want an extreme example of this, go back into the sci.physics.fusion archives--about 1994 or so--and check out the lengthy debate between myself and Jed on whether CF was real. You will find that I started out as a disbeliever and, after he cuffed me around for awhile, I openly and totally reversed my position and began to argue *for* CF, and did so for several years. And, if you follow the goings on in that group far enough, you will discover that, when Jed's claims finally began to unravel, I reversed my position a second time, to an approximation of the one I now hold: that the phenomenon may be real, but thus far I have seen no solid proof.) Bottom line: riding dead horses is an activity I try to leave to others. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** and who attempts to convince others NOT to look >closer ***{I don't do that either. When I posted up dismissive arguments against "polywater," it meant I found the report interesting enough to talk about but not interesting enough for me, personally, to investigate. However, others with differing values and beliefs may very well respond to my adamant negative stance by deciding to look at it more closely. It they do so, it is entirely their call, not mine, and hence is not my responsibility. You cannot rationally conclude that, because I posted up a negative assessment of an alleged anomaly, that I give a hoot in hell whether someone else investigates it. I may, and I may not, and either way, others are free to do as they please. We are adults here, not children, and as such none of us are subject to being controlled by the words of the others. --MJ}*** , significantly interferes with the intellectual atmosphere of >vortex-L which I hope to promote. I therefore issue a warning. ***{That's fine and dandy, if you are accurate in your assessment of the situation and its implications, and if you are motivated by principles of fair play. However, in the present instance your assessment of the situation is so wildly inaccurate as to be obviously indefensible on multiple grounds, and as such gives rise to the reasonable suspicion that you are motivated by personal resentment--i.e., by a desire to strike out at a person who has had the temerity to treat you as an equal, rather than as God almighty, King of Vortex, dictator, or whatever description your ego requires. --MJ}*** [Since this post is too long to pass the server in one piece, I am breaking it at this point. The second part follows immediately.] ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 10:20:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29739; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:15:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:14:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: "Pathological" skepticism Resent-Message-ID: <"_NS-A3.0.bG7.ucHDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [This is the second part of my message.] > >This whole Pathological Skepticism issue has not appeared recently on >Vortex-L. The majority of subscribers are "believer" types, not Skeptics. >I have not said so recently, but I strongly suggest that vortex-L >subscribers adopt a philosophy of "Provisional belief" regarding anomalies >presented here for possible testing. ***{Bill, when you come at us wearing your "moderator" hat and quoting your "rules," your comments are not perceived as suggestions, but as threats. That is a fact. Nevertheless, since you see fit at this point to use that word, I will now suggest the opposite: I urge everyone in this group (a) to strive with might and main to demolish or defend, depending on their personal views, every anomaly claim that is put forward here, and (b) to focus an intense personal research effort on anything which survives that scrutiny. Why do I suggest that? Because that is how, in a world constrained by the fact of limited resources, that scientific breakthroughs are in fact made. You may not like it, but we do not have the time or the funds to pursue every Tom Fool idiot notion that anyone chooses to put forth here. That is simply a fact. We must screen our input, using reasoned arguments directed at the substantive science while avoiding personal pejoratives, or we will piss away our limited time, and will fail to find what we seek. --MJ}*** I see disbelief as a continuing and >major obstacle to investigation. ***{And I see belief and disbelief, and the cut and thrust of reasoned debate between those who believe and those who disbelieve, as the essential instrument by which we can hack our way through the jungle of false claims, and ultimately find the truth. --MJ}*** Even openmindedness has its problems, >therefore I recommend that we surrender our defenses and accept new >anomalies as PROVISIONALLY being genuine. ***{And I recommend that we be precisely what we are: a group of people with differing knowledge, values, and opinions. The reason: that is a *good* thing. It is those differing states of mind which ensure that every anomaly which is put forth here, if it is even slightly plausible, will have both attackers and defenders, and, thus, will be capable of getting a fair hearing. --MJ}*** This counteracts our normal >human tendency towards Pathological Skepticism and lets us examine BOTH >sides of the issue with less prior bias. ***{Pathological skepticism has nothing to do with people arguing substantively, on the basis of logic and evidence, in favor of their beliefs, and has everything to do with the tendency of most people, when substantive arguments fail, to resort to the tactics of *evasion*--which means: to switch the focus of the discussion away from reason, and toward the exchange of personal pejoratives. Pathological skepticism is an outgrowth of evasion--i.e., of the determination by evil people to appear to be right, even when they are wrong, by diverting discussions away from the logic and evidence that will demonstrate that they are wrong. --MJ}*** It keeps our attitudes mobile, >so they don't get stuck in just one side of belief/disbelief, where they >would color everything. > >> and give people the boot > >Give people the boot? If I wished to threaten you with expulsion, I would >threaten. ***{When you put on your "moderator" hat and inform me that the most basic traits of my personality need to be changed to enable me to fit in here, *that is a threat to boot me out of the group*, and I am amazed that you would claim otherwise. --MJ}*** My message is a warning about improper behavior, as I choose >to define "improper." ***{Your definition is rubbish. It is in fact a perfect example of the sort we discussed above: a certain belief that, in fact, is utterly wrong. The question is, do you have the integrity to attempt a defense of that definition and, when it fails--as it is guaranteed to do--to change it? If not, then you exhibit precisely the "unshakeable belief" that you have wrongly attributed to me. So what about it? Is your certainty, like mine, capable of being altered by logic and evidence, or not? --MJ}*** Have you been thrown out of other lists? ***{Nope. I dislike moderated lists, because "moderators" almost invariably, when the chips are down, reveal themselves to be utterly corrupted by the illusory "power" that they think they possess, in exactly the same way that politicians are corrupted by real power. Result: as a general rule I don't waste my time posting to moderated lists. (If the list provides information that I find interesting, I lurk, but I do not post.) The only reason I began posting here was that Jed recommended the list, back before his character flaws had become apparent to me, and on the basis of the credibility he had at that time, I gave it a try. Why did I stick it out after he had stepped into the toilet and hit the flush lever? Because by then I had become amazed at how even handed you were in your dealings with the group, and by the fact that, for the most part, you stayed out of our faces until things had gotten clearly out of hand. In short, I stuck it out in this group because you had not yet revealed feet of clay, and I felt obligated to stay around until you either did so, or I became convinced that you were a Saint. --MJ}*** > >Here's more from the website: > > "Note that skepticism of the openminded sort is perfectly acceptable on > Vortex-L. The ban here is aimed at "hostile disbelief" and at the > sort of Skepticism which rejects all that is not solidly proved true, > while ignoring all new data and observations which conflict with > widely accepted theory." ***{Nobody in his right mind, having read this list, would apply such a description to me. Since you are clearly attempting to do so, I can only conclude that you either are not in your right mind or that you don't read your own list. --MJ}*** >> >I think the rules are not quite clear >> >> ***{"Not quite clear" is an understatement, if you intend to justify >> booting people out > >Who is booted out? And as for justification for my actions, I need none. >I am an inconsistant, irrational human being who periodically takes unfair >actions based only on gut feelings and without regrets or apology. I >revel in my eeeeeevil. ***{There is a large price to be paid for putting forth this kind of bilge. Every step you take down the well-trodden path of "moderators" who think they are God almighty diminishes you in the eyes of every reasoning observer, whether you acknowledge that fact or not. --MJ}*** >> and unsubstantiated gossip. Thus if you intend to rely on this sort of >> strained interpretation to give me the boot, while posing as the defender >> of the most out-of-control and unsavoy individual who posts here, then I >> will go sailing out the door laughing, to put it mildly. --MJ}*** > >I am not posing as anything. I am acting as a dictator who arbitrarily >makes the rules and sporadically enforces them at my own whim. ***{A contradiction. You say you are not posing, and then, in the very next sentence, you put forth the delusional fantasy of the typical deranged "moderator," whose "power" exists solely in his own mind. Of course, you pay for the maintenance of this group, and thus you can exclude me based on any rationale you choose to apply. That is a manifestation of your property rights. However, it is not "power." Truth be told, I am no more forced to put up with your "moderation" than you are forced to put up with my posts. I can withhold my inputs from this group on the basis of any rationale I choose to apply, as a manifestation of *my* property rights. Indeed, I could even set up a group of my own, devoted to the discussion of similar issues, if I so desired. Bottom line: this is a group based on the voluntary exchange of values. You don't have to maintain it, and none of the participants have to post or to lurk here. None of us has any real power over any of the others, nor should we. All we have is the opportunity to learn and to alter our own reputations, either for good or for ill, depending on how we behave. --MJ}*** I keep the >rules in my head and only write some of them down. I inconsistantly >ignore friends' transgressions ***{I.e., Jed Rothwell. --MJ}*** while jumping on the same behavior in >non-friends. ***{I.e., me. --MJ}*** Depending on my mood, sometimes I give warnings, sometimes I >remove subscribers, with or without explanation. > >If you don't alter your course, what will I do? I don't know. ***{And if you continue to threaten and bluster, based on personal bias and delusions of grandeur, what will I do? The answer: I will cease to post to this list. (I will, however, lurk here, if your "whim" permits that. In preparation for that likely eventuality, I request that you inform me regarding the amount of payment that will be required.) --MJ}*** Point out >that you are behaving in a highly UN-vortexian manner, and that the great >and powerful Bill Beaty has frowned. > >Harshly. ***{Amazing. You should be taken forthwith to the nearest lunatic asylum, and there confined. --MJ}*** >> That is what you are doing right now, by the way: responding to my >> substantive arguments with an ad hominem attack. > >That ploy is really old. You think I have a hidden agenda? I am not >trying to "win" the competitive debate you've started about freezing >water. Only experimentation can settle such issues. ***{Totally bogus utter nonsense. If we do not use "competitive debate" to narrow our focus to those alleged anomalies that have some chance of being real, then our chances of success are virtually zero. There isn't enough time and money available on planet Earth to investigate the anomaly claims of every drooling idiot and con artist who is out there. We either drastically cull the claims before we go to the lab, or we fail. Period. This is not a subject about which reasonable people can disagree. --MJ}*** Here we have an >opportunity to perform some simple experiments (or at the very least, look >for papers about earlier research.) Instead this is derailed into >argumentativeness. ***{Reasoned discourse--i.e., substantive debate between sincere proponents of opposing views--is the way of science, and is mankind's surest and most efficient path to truth. To smear that process by labelling it as "argumentativeness," when you know full well that the latter term is primarily used to describe pointless bickering, exchanges of ad hominems, and other unseemly displays, is morally reprehensible. --MJ}*** >I see that we probably have a serious difference in philosophy. To get to >the truth, do we choose sides and start a battle, and the outcome >determines what is true? ***{Substantive argumentation is the highest capacity of the human intellect. The only purpose of experimentation, in fact, is to supply informational inputs to that process. Data by itself is nothing. We need the cut and thrust of substantive debate about the data, if we are extract the truths that it contains. If that process is, in a sense, a "battle," then so be it. It is the only thing standing between humanity and extinction. --MJ*** Or do we all join the SAME side of the fight, >like the members on a mountainclimbing expedition? It's the COMPETITOR >versus the COOPERATOR paradigm. ***{That's a false dichotomy. The fact of the matter is that reasoned discourse--a substantive debate between the proponents and opponents of an idea--is an instance of both cooperation and competition. It requires cooperation in the same sense as chess requires cooperation: in the voluntary acceptance, by all participants, of the rules that allow the process to go forward. In chess, participants cooperate by accepting the rules of the game, and then compete within the framework of those rules. In reasoned discourse, participants cooperate by agreeing to focus their arguments on logic and evidence and to forego excursions into bickering and the hurling of pejoratives. Within the context of those limitations, however, they compete. --MJ}*** As a long time "cooperator", I see your >usual practice of setting up competitive debates as seriously flawed. You >apparently see my attempts to impose Cooperation as being some sort of >transparent ploy to win the competition. ***{No, I see what you are doing for what it is--as an attempt by a confused and flawed individual to apply wooly, ill-thought-out, socially expedient, and self-contradictory standards to someone whom he dislikes, with predictable results: personal bias rears its ugly head. --MJ}*** > >This may be akin to a Christian seeing an Aztec as being a flawed >Christian, rather than as having valid but incompatible philosophy. >However, Christians might refuse to allow Aztec sacrifice rituals in >the Christian churches. ***{By likening reasoned discourse to human sacrifice as practiced by the Aztecs, you put forth yet another transparent smear. --MJ}*** > >> Then let's hear some substantive arguments to that effect, >> rather than a continuation of this disingenuous effort to reinvent the >> rules. --MJ}*** > > >My rules have not varied much over the years of operation here. You're >encountering old rules, and my inconsistant policing of this list. ***{And I'm also encountering the influence that *personal bias* has on your interpretation of your own rules. (Note: I have a final comment after your signature, below.) --MJ}*** > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ***{In your previous post, concerning my view of reasoned discourse, you said the following: In many forums the philosophy is ... "ridicule and discredit all >strange ideas and the ones which survive this 'hazing' process must be >real." In response, I said: "If you think I do that, then the only reasonable reply is to ask you what you've been smoking." I would add that your comment constitutes a distortion of my oft-repeated view that "reason is survival of the fittest in the mind." According to that view, the search for truth is a search for contradictions, and the proper way to evaluate scientific claims is to search relentlessly for information that contradicts them, and to treat those that remain standing as the truth. Since finding a contradiction is not the same as ridiculing an idea, and since being falsified is not the same as being discredited--and since both facts ought to be obvious--I consider your description of my view of reason to be as clearly a *smear* as is your treating of my interaction with Jed Rothwell as if it is representative of my interaction with everyone. The fact that you said "in many forums," of course, gives you "plausible deniability," but the truth is that your comment was intended as an oblique reference to my position. Here is my suggestion: if you disagree with my view of reason, then attack it directly and openly; and if you think I treat everyone the way I treat people who blatantly misbehave, then try to maintain that proposition openly as well. Why do that? Because a continuation of your present course, in which you seem impelled by delusions that you are some sort of divinely ordained "dictator" (your word) who can do as he pleases without adverse consequences, is flatly wrong. It is true that, since you are footing the bills, you can do as you please with this group. However, you have repeatedly indicated that you see the mix of people here as a vehicle for pursuing the truth about anomalous science, and, to the extent that is really your goal, you are constrained: every time you intervene, you alter the behavior and the mix of people who will be present here, and, as a consequence, you alter, for good or ill, the serviceability of the group as an instrument for your chosen purpose. And don't misunderstand: I know that you, like Rothwell, are far brighter than the average person, and I suspect that you, unlike Rothwell, are making a sincere if flawed effort to be the best person you can be. However, we are not guaranteed of success in any endeavor. Failure, like death, lurks nearby, just out of sight, in every moment of our lives, and such is the case here: the fact that you have handled this group well in the past and, as a result, have achieved a mix of personalities that functions well at finding the truth, does not mean your future results are guaranteed to match those in the past. Indeed, the opposite is far more likely, due simply to the fact that you have the power to make changes, and to the likelihood that you will continue to use that power, tinkering with a machine that already works, until it has been rendered inoperable. Indeed, this is a proven path to failure that works everywhere: the power to change is the power to destroy. By means of it, "legislatures" transform free countries--e.g., America--into fascist tyrannies; successful golfers, by tinkering with their swings, put themselves into prolonged slumps; prosperous restaurant owners, by tinkering with their menus or the recipes in their kitchens, drive formerly enthusiastic customers elsewhere; engineers at large corporations, by tweaking, transform best selling products into second rate losers; and so on. Bottom line: a "moderator," like a small child, is for the most part better seen than heard. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 11:55:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04656; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:49:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:49:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:56:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"UOaMo3.0.Y81.x-IDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:24 AM 12/11/0, Jones Beene wrote: > >The STRAW MAN: >Lets say you have a thermionic-like converter that is turned >inside out. It is a refractory tube of high l/d ratio that is >heated from the outside and insulated on the outside so that all >of the heat rejection must occur from inside (down the axis) of >the capillary tube. > Right off, the assumption that you can so thoroughly insulate so as to make all, or even more than a small percentage of, the caloric flow end up as radiation down the inside of the tube is false. Nice idea if it could be made to work. This, in itself, would constitute a violation of the second law and make possible mechanical perpetual motion by taking in lateral radiation and converting it to longitudinal radiation of a much higher intensity. A similar scheme might be made by using a concave insulated spheroid mirror system to focus radiant energy from (both sides of) a central low temperature plane onto a high temperature structure which uses radiation directly and/or the thermal difference of itself with the plane to create usable energy. The problem is that the mirror itself absorbs and re-radiates black body radiation also, from both sides, so entropy takes over. This does point out that one possible route to overunty of a kind is discovery of a perfect insulator, one that is free from black body radiation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 12:10:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04713; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:07:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:07:51 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <12.5e7e5ee.27668dd5 aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:06:45 EST Subject: fun game To: vortex-l eskimo.com, cefouse@alltel.net, smhorten@yahoo.com, JSHIREY555 aol.com, Redfyr@aol.com, fstenger@suite224.net, tfrank edisonmission.com CC: FZNIDARSIC aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 124 Resent-Message-ID: <"qeZof1.0.W91.MGJDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I am doing other things than cold fusion. One thing I've done is to take my first course in Object Oriented Programming. In this class we had to turn in 5 trying projects. My last project is a number guessing game. It counts how many tries it takes you to guess a random number. I can do it in 10. Its fun. To try my game FTP the file Prog6.exe from the following site. ftp://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/Prog6.exe Once downloaded execute the file. Have fun. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 14:40:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13727; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:37:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:37:05 -0800 Message-ID: <012901c063c3$85a305c0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210194922.0324ebe8@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:41:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pmw2k3.0.CM3.8SLDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > However while writing the above, I realised that the error in the analogy > lay with the fact that it is dA/dt that results in an E field, not just the > A field by itself. IOW one would only see something if the current in the AB > coil were changing. > The electron experiences a force in it's direction of motion whenever it experiences a dA/dx , where x is it's direction of motion. An electric force caused by dA/dx is part of some standard formulations of EM. I believe that this effect is responsible for the longitudinal magnetic or "Ampere" force. I have carefully measured this force on current carrying wires as they pass through large changes in A caused by permanent magnets. The force tends to be smaller than the Lorentz force at the same current by about 10X due to geometric/magnetic constraints in obtaining high gradients across the wire. With superconductor field sources I think it could be of similar magnitude to the Lorentz force. Using 20A total current and small neo magnets my maximum measured force was .4 grams. No absolute B field is required, B may be zero at the wire, the force is proportional to the gradient of B perpendicular to the wire. - Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 15:31:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11879; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:29:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:29:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:35:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LZZFT.0.Xv2.bDMDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., See notes, please..... Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:34:59 -0900 From: Horace Heffner Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly >>high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV >>chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. Q: What is the requirement for a DC galvanic circuit in generating EVs? Why do you think this is required? Pick nearly any commercial analog signal path, from consumer audio to Plain Jane monitor video ............ . Why do you think this is required? c > >hmmmm. Horace, I appreciate your concern that interposing an insulator >between the needle and the anode stops the phenomenon completely...but how >can you expect to make currgent flow in the EV-generating circuit (so that >an EV will form) when you eliminate the conductive path of the >circuit? This seems kinda impossible. There appears to be Actually, based on Shoulder's original esimates of EV speeds near 0.1 c, the ball will be issued before any leader can reach across a say, 20 cm path. In particular a leader can't reach across the path multiple times to create the contiguous "chains" of balls he observed on the witness plates. His "picoscope" was invented to divert the little balls (on a dielectric plane) and thereby deterimine their charges and speed. This high speed and large charge he derived were the primary evidence for the charge and speed of the EV. Since no leader can reach across the path in the time of the pulse the EV's have to be generated by a mechanism that is purely cathode oriented. Yes the electrostatic field must be there, but electrostatic fields pass right through dielectrics. Each ball does not require its own pulse, so a nearly steady state field (overall, not in the vicinity of the tip) must therefore create them. Chains of balls are created by single pulses. Shoulder's description of the process was purely cathode oriented. He denies the role of the anode. If I weren't so busy this week I would try to dig out some quotes. At any rate, a dielectric over a grounded (or near grounded via small current sensing resistor, his usual config.) anode plate should make no difference in the cathode tip electrodynamics. I should also mention that in my opinion the flaw in the picoscope is that the traces formed and photographed could be due to influences of the side plate fields on the LEADER during leader formation, and the bulk of the charge measured could have been measured during the stroke. There is therefore no proof that the single ball carried all that charge. > >hmmm2. Maybe it could be done capacitively. Yes. The dielectric makes it a capacitive linkage. But note: the rise time of the linkage does not have to match the ball creation time. Multiple balls, "EV chains" are shown to be created regularly, via the witness plate. Shoulders assumes that the multiple pits in circles indicate multiple EV's, not multiple strokes, or multiple anode spots. >Instead of applying a pulse >to the needle, let's apply a fast rise-time voltage to the needle and leave >the voltage on indefinitely. That would then create a DC electric field >between the needle and the fully insulated anode and now it DOES seem like >charges could leave the needle and move out into the space....right? Well to an extent. I think he mentions the importance of a periodic recovery time due to surface charge buildup, but that only necessarily implies a delay between chains. There can also be a problem with arcing or needle oveheating. Among Sholders' capacitve linkages is Fig. 49 in his US 5,123,039 patent, which shows an "electrodeless" EV source. This is very interesting, but the problem is that, as far as I know, a lot of the stuff in the patent was never implemented, or fully tested - it's vaporware. That is not an uncommon thing in patents. It is done to gain full coverage on the concepts. I wonder in what category the electrodeless EV source falls, and what kind of trace evidence was obtained from it if it was implemented. One way to meet CHALLENGE 1 is possibly to build the electrodeless gun and show good EV witness evidence on a dielectric target. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 18:27:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21649; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:25:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:22:14 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"i75UM3.0.7I5.ToODw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 22:44 10/12/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 12:11 PM 12/11/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: > >>>I'm not the expert but I can tell you that Hal's invention utilizes A-phi >>>waves, which are comprised only of A (the vector potential) and phi (the >>>scalar potential). There's no E or H in these waves, hence they should >>>pass effortlessly thru a Faraday cage. When the A-phi wave falls upon a >>>Josephson Junction, it should modulate the current thru the junction in >>>much the same way as the current in a SQUID is modulated by the A that >>>surrounds flux passing thru the SQUID's loop. BTW, rigorously speaking >>>there's no energy in these A-phi waves...only information. >> >>Was this device experimentally demonstrated? I noticed that you used >>the expression "it _should_ modulate the current..." and I wondered if >>it had been tested and proven, or was theory only? > >We've never tested it but we are planning to in the near future. There are >rumors of a secret gov't project (years ago) and they have it that the >basic effect was found to work. We don't know what, if anything, the gov't >has done with it since. > >We have studied the problem "on paper" for quite a while and thus far it >doesn't appear to be forbidden or anything. It is curious to note that the >A-phi wave is completely unlike the regular EM wave in which both E and H >are transverse to the direction of propagation. The A-phi wave is more >like a sound wave: phi is distributed like pressure is in a sound wave and >A is analogous to the displacement vector in a sound wave. It is not >obvious how to generate a pure A-phi wave either! This is very interesting and apparently assumes unconventional physics. As far as I understand it, one of Maxwells equations (Gauss' eqn) says that E can have no divergence (and therefore no variation in phi) without local charge density variations producing it. It seems to me that this means that A-phi waves cannot exist in a vacuum unless you assume the vacuum can be polarised (like a plasma may be polarised by concentrating positive and negative charges into different volumes). At which point you need to expand Maxwells equations to allow for this. So do your theorists (Hal and Michael) also propose modifications to Maxwells equations to support their A-phi waves, or do they find the conventional theory supports them? It is interesting to note that regular EM is entirely divergence free. it consists of curl only motions (ie analagous to shear waves in a solid - which produce no local variations of volume or pressure). I think it is also the case that curl fields or standar EM (ie shear motion) can not be combined to produce divergent or scalar fields (ie pressure & volume variations) because they are separate degrees of freedom. (In a similar fashion that no amount of motion along the x and y axes can ever be combined to produce motion along the z.) I believe this contradicts the assertions of some scalar proponents such as Beardon. It has occured to me that the field outside of a toroidal coil has vector potential A but no curl (no normal B magnetic field). So if one simply varies the current in the coil a varying vector potential sould be produced and if one then sheilds any E and B fields, one should be left with A variations only. However on further thought it seems that any rate of change in A is always accompanied by E&B fields and the A field variations are weakened to the same extent that the E&B fields are shielded. So I don't hold out much hope for "scalar electromagnetics" without discovering some new physical laws! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 18:31:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23554; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:29:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:29:51 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:29:06 EST Subject: Re: Response from Bearden To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 147 Resent-Message-ID: <"eVhPo3.0.wl5.UsODw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 12/05/2000 12:52:19 PM, Jones Beene wrote: << It is my present intention to notify the SEC of this episode, hopefully, prior of any filing by you. As you may know, they have taken a very hard line on this type of conduct recently. >> What does that refer to? Is there another case in which the SEC has taken action recently? By the way, I share your low opinion of Bearden's work. The crows are safe as far as that's concerned. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 18:54:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32276; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:51:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:51:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:53:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3584FE.6DB7C862 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"wzn0l.0.9u7.8BPDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Horace Heffner wrote: > Right off, the assumption that you can so thoroughly insulate so as to make > all, or even more than a small percentage of, the caloric flow end up as > radiation down the inside of the tube is false. If you mean that only a small percentage of heat rejection can end up as IR radiation at the high end, then that would probably be incorrect, but if you mean, as I suspect, there is an upper limit for any material as to how much energy it can radiate in watts/ cm>2 then you are correct, and that could be the ultimate problem with this idea. With the plutonium reactor that is used in the space program, for instance, I suspect from it's operational parameters that close to 100% of it's heat is rejected is in the moderate IR range and that would not change much if you forced it to be rejected internally as opposed to externally - so long as enough surface area were provided. Finally got around to pulling out "Thermionic Energy Conversion" by Hatsopoulos and it seems for good emitters in a "passive" state, one can't expect more than a few watts/ cm>2 . Therefore, to get a decent energy density in the proposed device, one would have to fashion the tube, not as a single capillary but as a bundle of hundreds of capillaries - in order to get the interior surface area up to a high enough level. I'm not sure if that is doable. However, when you actively capture and remove radiation, rather than let it passively radiate as a blackbody, then that could also be a different ballgame -something akin to convection vs nonconvection (yes I realize that all photon radiation is at c, anyway, but here I'm referring to the role of the receptor, which likely enters into the equation someway. > Nice idea if it could be > made to work. This, in itself, would constitute a violation of the second > law and make possible mechanical perpetual motion by taking in lateral > radiation and converting it to longitudinal radiation of a much higher > intensity. Not necessarily so long as the total energy content is conserved. After all, this is pretty much what happens in any old Linac, isn't it? I mean converting low grade lateral radiation into a higher grade beam. Really all you need to make a thermionic converter a viable option to an internal combustion engine is get its efficiency above 25 %. Then its other advantages such as weight and size would make it interesting, especially for small power units. > This does point out that one possible route to overunty of a kind is > discovery of a perfect insulator, one that is free from black body > radiation. The silica tiles used on the space shuttle, for instance, are about as perfect as you can expect to get economically. They are surprisingly effective. Thanks for your time, as I know you are a busy lad these days. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 21:16:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23332; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:13:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:21:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"fjXHt3.0.Ui5.IGRDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:41 PM 12/11/0, George Holz wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> However while writing the above, I realised that the error in the analogy >> lay with the fact that it is dA/dt that results in an E field, not just the >> A field by itself. IOW one would only see something if the current in the AB >> coil were changing. >> > >The electron experiences a force in it's direction of >motion whenever it experiences a dA/dx , where x is it's direction of >motion. That doesn't sound right. In know there is an E field generatedd by A/@t, (the symbol meanining partial derivative symbol here) resulting in the Lorentz force, but no force is known to be generated from dA/dt is it? (This question is not meant to be rhetorical.) > An electric force caused by dA/dx is part of some standard >formulations of EM. I believe that this effect is responsible for the >longitudinal magnetic or "Ampere" force. I have carefully measured >this force on current carrying wires as they pass through large >changes in A caused by permanent magnets. The force >tends to be smaller than the Lorentz force at the same current by >about 10X due to geometric/magnetic constraints in obtaining high >gradients across the wire. With superconductor field sources I >think it could be of similar magnitude to the Lorentz force. >Using 20A total current and small neo magnets my maximum >measured force was .4 grams. No absolute B field is required, >B may be zero at the wire, the force is proportional to the >gradient of B perpendicular to the wire. >- Could you explain your experiment a little more? It is not clear that you are actually obtaining a force from dA/dt. If you are, then you might have a very significant experiment. I have derived from various starting points (e.g. Marinov's laws, and again independently from relativistc effects of circular currents) a force which would be associated with dA/dx, and posted the derivations here. The forces derived from these principles, which are associated with the dA/dx experienced by a particle in motion through an A field gradient, like that about a circular or toroidal current, clearly make for free energy devices, devices as noted in the postings. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 11 22:17:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA12114; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:13:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:13:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:12:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA12078 Resent-Message-ID: <"vzedd2.0.Cz2.68SDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:21:17 -0900: [snip] >That doesn't sound right. In know there is an E field generatedd by A/@t, >(the symbol meanining partial derivative symbol here) resulting in the >Lorentz force, but no force is known to be generated from dA/dt is it? >(This question is not meant to be rhetorical.) Just sloppy writing on my part, sorry. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 00:28:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA12057; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:27:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:27:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:34:24 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"SH4cF2.0.Jy2.S5UDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:12 PM 12/12/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:21:17 -0900: >[snip] >>That doesn't sound right. In know there is an E field generatedd by A/@t, >>(the symbol meanining partial derivative symbol here) resulting in the >>Lorentz force, but no force is known to be generated from dA/dt is it? >>(This question is not meant to be rhetorical.) > >Just sloppy writing on my part, sorry. Oh, I must have assumed your dA/dt meant a/@t, or didn't even really notice it, but it was George Holtz' dA/dx that caught my eye as possibly something he really meant. It would be interesting to get more of a description of his experiment and especially how he excluded other than A field effects. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 00:46:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15596; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:45:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:52:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"GIaCj2.0.Yp3.OMUDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:35 PM 12/11/0, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo., > > See notes, please..... > > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:34:59 -0900 >From: Horace Heffner >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >>>In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly >>>high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV >>>chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. > > > Q: > > What is the requirement for a DC galvanic circuit in generating >EVs? Why do you think this is required? I said nothing about a galvanic circuit nor did I say anything was required. I said perhaps one way to achieve a fairly high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. The implication is that the witness plate would be entirely dielectric. This higher level of proof is obtained because so many of Shoulders' experiments have an alternative explantion based on ordinary leader induced sparks/arcs which involve anode spots and mostly neutral plasma born conductivity. The metal anode surface may be an essential ingredient, and if so the existence of EV's at all is placed in doubt due to the existence of alternative cnventional explanations. Another point of discussion might be as to why a gaseous envoronment is required, especially the recommended noble gas environment, like xenon. If EV's are pure or nearly pure electron aggregates, as spelled out in the initial patents, etc., why is a gas necessary at all? If a nucleation theory is advanced, i.e. that EV's are formed by electron tunneling to a neutral noble atom, then it would seem that EV formation would work well at much lower pressures. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 01:00:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19116; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:59:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:59:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:07:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"cZW_52.0.cg4.1aUDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:53 PM 12/11/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Hi Horace, > >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Right off, the assumption that you can so thoroughly insulate so as to make >> all, or even more than a small percentage of, the caloric flow end up as >> radiation down the inside of the tube is false. > >If you mean that only a small percentage of heat rejection can end up as IR >radiation at the high end, then that would probably be incorrect, but if you >mean, as I suspect, there is an upper limit for any material as to how much >energy it can radiate in watts/ cm>2 then you are correct, and that could be >the ultimate problem with this idea. > I don't really mean either of these things, though the low power density of the black body radiation IS important to what I am saying. You started off with the assumption: "Lets say you have a thermionic-like converter that is turned inside out. It is a refractory tube of high l/d ratio that is heated from the outside and insulated on the outside so that all of the heat rejection must occur from inside (down the axis) of the capillary tube." This assumption, that you can insulate so well that all the heat rejection must occur down the axis can not be achieved. All insulation material black body radiates. If there is insulation around the capillaries' heat source, then that insulation, unless it is radiating away the heat, will rise in temperature. This is so even if it is surrounded by a vacuum. It will radiate away heat about as fast as the inside of the tube radiates, but with a larger area. It is like applying a voltage to an high resistance resistor in an open circuit. The (open) end of the resitor will rise to the same voltage as that applied to the other end, because there is no current. Insulation is the same. The temperature of the outside of the insulation will rise until it radiates away the heat at a rate similar to the inside, unless some special means is employed to increase radiation down the central axis of the capillary. Radiation going back and forth across the capillary will merely stagnate the heat and let the temperature, both indside and outside the insulation rise until equilibrium is established. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 01:07:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA20782; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 01:07:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 01:07:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:15:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Resent-Message-ID: <"e24i42.0.a45.FhUDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:12 PM 12/12/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:21:17 -0900: >[snip] >>That doesn't sound right. In know there is an E field generatedd by A/@t, >>(the symbol meanining partial derivative symbol here) resulting in the >>Lorentz force, but no force is known to be generated from dA/dt is it? >>(This question is not meant to be rhetorical.) > >Just sloppy writing on my part, sorry. This is just a corrected verion of my response, sorry: Oh, I must have assumed your dA/dt meant A/@t, or didn't even really notice it, but it was George Holtz' dA/dx that caught my eye as possibly something he really meant. It would be interesting to get more of a description of his experiment and especially how he excluded other than A field effects. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:07:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19677; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:06:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:06:01 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:01:21 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A362FB1.CC67502A pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"vQ05Q1.0.Np4.83ZDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > This assumption, that you can insulate so well that all the heat > rejection must occur down the axis can not be achieved. All insulation > material black body radiates. Yes - radiates at the low end of the IR, but at the higher end of the IR spectra, is it not true that a substantial part of that radiation can be effectively reflected back into the active region? The ability to reflect IR radiation effectively diminishes with wavelength of course but it is substantial above 10 microns. This is the principal of the Dewar, of course, and it is used in that application as an efficient caloric shield even at extremely long IR wavelengths. Radiation at the very low end of the IR spectra is unavoidable but I see no good reason that it couldn't be held to under 50 % of the total heat rejection (caloric flow), probably far less. And even at that, if you are getting your primary heat from combustion, then even the low end IR could be transferred to the incoming air. Even if it were necessary to provide more than one layer of exterior wall with a polished interior surface, such a Dewar-like arrangement would reflects back to a low work function inner wall a large portion of your total heat energy so as to be "available" to be captured. But that is far from the only engineering issue. I'm still searching for a higher level problem that would involving coupling, i.e. a reason why IR wouldn't be absorbed in a stepwise succession by an electron beam. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 06:34:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28090; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:33:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:33:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:33:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nf_XH3.0.qs6.tSZDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >December 11, 2000 > > > >No stinkin' badges > > > >Thomas Sowell > > > >In the old movie classic "The Treasure of Sierra Madre," > >armed men confront Humphrey Bogart claiming to be police. > > > >"If you're policemen," he asked, "Where are your badges?" > > > >"We don't need no stinkin' badges!" was the reply. > >On Dec. 1, the Supreme Court of the United States asked the Florida > >Supreme Court to tell them what legal authorization they had for > >ordering a recount. No answer. > >But, exactly one week later, the Florida Supreme Court again ordered a > >recount. What they were saying to the U.S. > >Supreme Court was: "We don't need no stinkin' authorization!" > > > >The Florida Supreme Court's own chief justice, in a bitter dissent, said > >that the majority's 4-3 decision "has no foundation in Florida law." > >They don't need no stinkin' foundation! > > > >Another dissenter, Justice Harding, declared that, under the > >Constitution of the United States, "neither this Court nor the circuit > >court has the authority to create the standards by which it will count > >the under-vote ballots." They don't need no stinkin' standards! > > > >Long before this election, the Florida Supreme Court was notorious for > >its headstrong judicial activism. They have gotten away with exceeding > >their authority for so long that it may be hard for them to accept that > >they are still under the law, just like everyone else. As far as they > >are concerned, they don't need no stinkin' badges. > > > >One of the reasons judicial activists get away with ignoring the law and > >imposing their own pet notions instead is that much of the mainstream > >media treat the actions of judges as automatically legitimate and all > >criticism of them as undermining the rule of law. Even after the United > >States Supreme Court said that the Florida legislature has every right > >to select who to send to the Electoral College as the state's electors, > >great outcries continue about what a terrible thing this would be. > > > >It was not the Florida legislature, but the Florida Supreme Court, which > >has turned a simple close election into a constitutional confrontation. > > > >If anything good comes out of all of this, it may be a demonstration of > >what chaos can be generated by a few judges who rush in where angles > >fear to tread, and take over the decisions which the written law gives > >to executive officials like the Secretary of State or to the state > >legislature. Whether in Florida or elsewhere, this is done by verbal > >sleight-of-hand. Anyone whose authority the judicial activists want to > >usurp can be cynically declared to have "abused" his or her authority, > >thus allowing judges to take over and make decisions that the law gave > >to others. > > > >Judicial activists around the country have ignored the Constitution's > >separation of powers in order to become the grand second-guessers of > >everybody else, whether executive, legislative or private. > > > >They do this by pretending to "interpret" the law . . . even when > >they interpret the law to mean the direct opposite of what its plain > >words say. This has been the pattern of judicial activists at all > >levels, including too many U.S. Supreme Court justices. Justice > >William J. Brennan's "interpretation" of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 > >to permit quotas and preferences that it plainly forbade was a classic > >of this sheer brass in the Weber case of 1979. > > > >The time is long overdue to stop regarding judges as little tin gods who > >can do no wrong. An independent judiciary does not mean a judiciary > >independent of the law. If it does, then we can forget about being a > >free and democratic nation. > >We are just the serfs of whoever happens to be on the bench. > > > >What choices have the judicial activists left us? Other officials could > >disregard the courts, as President Andrew Jackson did when he said, > >"John Marshall has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it." But that > >would be answering cynicism with cynicism . . . and no society can > >survive on sheer cynicism. > > > >We could just bow to our betters on the bench and relinquish the freedom > >that so many Americans have died to protect. Or we could start > >impeaching judges who overstep the bounds of the law. > > > >The spin will be that politicians are just punishing judges for decision > >that they don't happen to like, when in fact judges would be removed for > >violating their oath of office by failing to follow the law. Are we > >afraid to face a little spin to protect what others before us have faced > >death for? > > > >Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist. > > Have a great day From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 07:56:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27196; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:54:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:54:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A364BB1.7D232ABB bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:00:49 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bearden's Ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I4bTA.0.fe6.beaDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts! Tom has a August 28, 2000 letter to Power Engineering International published at: http://www.cseti.org/bearden/magic_asked.htm which might help some understand where he's coming from. Jed will particularly like this excerpt: <><><><><><><><><><> Once that mindset changes, then there is likely to be a great and rapid revolution in electrodynamics, physics, and electrical power systems. The problem of power systems extracting their energy from the vacuum, and powering themselves and their loads, can be solved in four to five years, given the proper scientific team, the mission, and the funding. Here Tom acknowledges the ultimate goal of self-powered systems. It is interesting to note that he signs his letter: Tom Bearden LTC, U.S. Army (Retired) CEO, CTEC Inc. Director, Association of Distinguished American Scientists Fellow Emeritus, Alpha Foundation's Institute for Advanced Study Soliton bellsouth.net which lacks the PhD reference. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:02:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14009; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:00:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:00:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3A364D40.FC111ED0 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:07:28 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bearden's MEG Paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"js9S73.0.ZQ3.okaDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has Tom's MEG paper been pulled or relocated? The URL I have bookmarked is: http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/MEGpaper.pdf which returns "Sorry, we were unable to find the page you requested." Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:17:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23006; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:12:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:12:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:12:40 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JDHpd1.0.Od5.fvaDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I find it strange and a little frightening how the simplest concepts and facts are overlooked by certain people, especially those supporting Bush. The most basic concept of the US system is that each vote is important and needs to be counted. In Florida, a small fraction of the votes were not counted by machines for various reasons. Because these votes would probably go against Bush, his people did everything they could to prevent these votes from being counted. This approach was not applied in states where the count was expected to favor Bush. The Courts were asked to resolve this conflict based on Florida law. The problem facing the Court, indeed facing all courts, is to interpret poorly written law. In this case, because the law allowed different interpretations, the Court had to apply the intent of the law. This intent was clearly that all votes should be counted and included in the total. Unfortunately, the timing of the decision made such a count impossible, if the schedule provide by law were followed. They decided that following the basic concept of the US system was more important than following a law that never anticipated the present situation. So the count was continued beyond the deadline in some counties. Unfortunately, the US Supreme Court got into the act. For reasons that only make sense to a lawyer, the count was stopped and the Florida Court was told to make their opinion more clear. So the Florida Court reexamined the situation and again reached the same conclusion, i.e. all votes need to be considered. Once again the US Supreme Court is about to confuse the situation, clearly based on short-term political considerations. If the US Supreme court had not gotten involved in the first place, we would now know what these uncounted votes indicated and the basic voting principle would be intact. Unfortunately, because of the timing, no matter what the US Supreme court decides, the intent of the voters will not be known in time, with the prospect of having to decide the issue in Congress. If Bush had agreed to allow counts to take place and argued only that clear and fair standards be applied, we would not be in this situation and Bush would be viewed with respect, even if he were not president. Instead, we are looking forward to having a president who is a demonstrated hypocrite and an enemy of the basic concepts of our voting system. Ed Storms Michael Randall wrote: > > >December 11, 2000 > > > > > >No stinkin' badges > > > > > >Thomas Sowell > > > > > >In the old movie classic "The Treasure of Sierra Madre," > > >armed men confront Humphrey Bogart claiming to be police. > > > > > >"If you're policemen," he asked, "Where are your badges?" > > > > > >"We don't need no stinkin' badges!" was the reply. > > >On Dec. 1, the Supreme Court of the United States asked the Florida > > >Supreme Court to tell them what legal authorization they had for > > >ordering a recount. No answer. > > >But, exactly one week later, the Florida Supreme Court again ordered a > > >recount. What they were saying to the U.S. > > >Supreme Court was: "We don't need no stinkin' authorization!" > > > > > >The Florida Supreme Court's own chief justice, in a bitter dissent, said > > >that the majority's 4-3 decision "has no foundation in Florida law." > > >They don't need no stinkin' foundation! > > > > > >Another dissenter, Justice Harding, declared that, under the > > >Constitution of the United States, "neither this Court nor the circuit > > >court has the authority to create the standards by which it will count > > >the under-vote ballots." They don't need no stinkin' standards! > > > > > >Long before this election, the Florida Supreme Court was notorious for > > >its headstrong judicial activism. They have gotten away with exceeding > > >their authority for so long that it may be hard for them to accept that > > >they are still under the law, just like everyone else. As far as they > > >are concerned, they don't need no stinkin' badges. > > > > > >One of the reasons judicial activists get away with ignoring the law and > > >imposing their own pet notions instead is that much of the mainstream > > >media treat the actions of judges as automatically legitimate and all > > >criticism of them as undermining the rule of law. Even after the United > > >States Supreme Court said that the Florida legislature has every right > > >to select who to send to the Electoral College as the state's electors, > > >great outcries continue about what a terrible thing this would be. > > > > > >It was not the Florida legislature, but the Florida Supreme Court, which > > >has turned a simple close election into a constitutional confrontation. > > > > > >If anything good comes out of all of this, it may be a demonstration of > > >what chaos can be generated by a few judges who rush in where angles > > >fear to tread, and take over the decisions which the written law gives > > >to executive officials like the Secretary of State or to the state > > >legislature. Whether in Florida or elsewhere, this is done by verbal > > >sleight-of-hand. Anyone whose authority the judicial activists want to > > >usurp can be cynically declared to have "abused" his or her authority, > > >thus allowing judges to take over and make decisions that the law gave > > >to others. > > > > > >Judicial activists around the country have ignored the Constitution's > > >separation of powers in order to become the grand second-guessers of > > >everybody else, whether executive, legislative or private. > > > > > >They do this by pretending to "interpret" the law . . . even when > > >they interpret the law to mean the direct opposite of what its plain > > >words say. This has been the pattern of judicial activists at all > > >levels, including too many U.S. Supreme Court justices. Justice > > >William J. Brennan's "interpretation" of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 > > >to permit quotas and preferences that it plainly forbade was a classic > > >of this sheer brass in the Weber case of 1979. > > > > > >The time is long overdue to stop regarding judges as little tin gods who > > >can do no wrong. An independent judiciary does not mean a judiciary > > >independent of the law. If it does, then we can forget about being a > > >free and democratic nation. > > >We are just the serfs of whoever happens to be on the bench. > > > > > >What choices have the judicial activists left us? Other officials could > > >disregard the courts, as President Andrew Jackson did when he said, > > >"John Marshall has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it." But that > > >would be answering cynicism with cynicism . . . and no society can > > >survive on sheer cynicism. > > > > > >We could just bow to our betters on the bench and relinquish the freedom > > >that so many Americans have died to protect. Or we could start > > >impeaching judges who overstep the bounds of the law. > > > > > >The spin will be that politicians are just punishing judges for decision > > >that they don't happen to like, when in fact judges would be removed for > > >violating their oath of office by failing to follow the law. Are we > > >afraid to face a little spin to protect what others before us have faced > > >death for? > > > > > >Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist. > > > > Have a great day From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:27:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24443; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:23:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:23:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A366668.482ADB56 gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:54:53 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Santilli's hadronic reactors References: <190787627.20001209103440 imap2.asu.edu> <5.0.1.4.0.20001211094335.04c29210@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7iogd2.0.nz5.74bDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott, Thank you for your clarification which is appreciated. However, please note that you are passing judgment t based on rumors ventured in equivocal corridors. The scientific reality is that the origin of the commercial over-unity of Santilli's hadronic reactors is a big mystery and its understanding can provide mechanisms for similar other forms of new clean energies, including those studied by your group. In numbers , accurate calculations based on quantum chemistry which include all possible steps yielding a first order contribution, establish that the creation of one cf of plasma in the reactor requires a minimum of 2,023 BTU/cf [1]. measurements everybody can verify with the reactors in Florida establish that the electric energy calibrated via a watt meter places in the POWER COMPANY PANEL AN D NOT AT THE ARC, the production of one cf of plasma requires as low as 294 BTU/cf for the case of oil waste and 356 BTU/cf for tap water. Permit me to disagree with you that such a situation is abysmally far from being understood via old caloric values of the past millennium. In fact, the reactors are called "hadronic" because they required a completely new chemistry, first published by Pergamon Press, in Oxford, England. Sincerely William F. Pound [1] R. M. Santilli, "Foundations of Hadronic Chemistry and its Application to new clean energies and fuels", in press. PS. For your information, hadronic mechanics is the only covering of quantum mechanics providing an axiomatically consistent and invariant prediction and representation of low energy nuclear reactions. For the experts, the novelty is in nonlinear, nonlocal and nonpotential interactions represented by Santilli via generalized units within a theory which is nonunitary, thus outside the class of equivalence of quantum mechanics. The mechanisms of tapping energy from molecular bounds is essentially the same as that of tapping energy from nuclei via LENT, or from hadrons such as nuclei. Serious researchers should perhaps study R. M. Santilli, J. new Energy, Vol. 4 issue 1, pages 7-318, 1998. Scott Little wrote: > At 11:20 AM 12/11/00 -0500, Institute for Basic Research wrote: > > >PS. It is symptomatic that nobody from Vortex has asked to personally visit > >and measure the large commercial over-unity of Santilli's hadronic reactors > >while I see rivers of words going on other, comparatively truly marginal and > >debatable reactors. I begin to get suspicious on this. It is clearly fishy. > > I thought it was common knowledge that Santilli's thing was not > "mysteriously o-u"...i.e. that it derives its apparent excess energy from > the caloric value of the sugar solution it consumes. > > Such a device is not what we're trying to achieve here on vortex. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) -- ********************************* Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli President INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH Editor in Chief ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES HADRONIC JOURNAL HADRONIC J. SUPPL. Editor INTERN. J. PHYSICS BALKAN J. of GEOMETRY and its APPLICATIONS __________________________________________ THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH P. O. Box 1577 Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A. Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275 E-address ibr gte.net Web sites http://www.i-b-r.org http://www.santillimagnegas.com _________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:38:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05298; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:37:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:37:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3662E6.F1908737 gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:39:52 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Fields CC: Lynn Kurtz , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud References: <190787627.20001209103440@imap2.asu.edu> <3A34FEA9.ED702B08@gte.net> <3A34F660.4C603E66@fc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oSvbR2.0.cI1.CHbDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear John, Thanks for your question. Perhaps you should look at the web suite of the technology http://www.magnegas.com Santilli's hadronic reactors (now in production for sale by a subsidiary of a PUBLIC company) have been conceived and constructed to tap energy from molecules in the same way as Fermi's reactors were conceived to tap energy from nuclei. In both cases the SCIENTIFIC ENERGY BALANCE is given by Total; energy out _________________ = Total energy in Energy in magnegas + heat of liquid ____________________________________ < 1 Electric energy + energy in liquid molecules As you should inspect in the web site, hadronic reactors are designed to recycle liquid waste, such as antifreeze waste, engine oil waste, sewage, etc. These liquids BRING MONEY, rather than costing $$$. As a result, they are not counted, yielding the COMMERCIAL ENERGY BALANCE Total; energy out _____________________ = Electric energy in (only) Energy in magnegas + heat of liquid ____________________________________ > 1. Electric energy As you can see in the web site, en independent certification by Motorfuelers, Inc. conducted in the first prototype, manually operated in 1998., established that Santilli's hadronic reactors have the above indicated commercial over-unity of 2,.78. Hadronic reactors now are completely automatic and much more efficient, and have a reported over-unity of five, of which an over-unity of 2.3 in the gas, that is, for each unity of electric energy you may calibrated from the panel you get .2.3 units of energy in the combustible gas produced, plus an over-unity of 2.7 in heat. All this for reactors operating at atmospheric pressure and with 50 kWh. Other hadronic reactors operating at 200 psi and 250 kWh are expected to have a considerable commercial over-unity. Your question regarding the self-sufficiency (the production of its own electricity) is out of balance and outside the boundary of science for this technology. This is due to the fact that ELECTRIC G ENERATORS ARE HORRENDOUSLY INEFFICIENT, with best efficiency ranging in the order of 0.3. Therefore, ANY technology, to be electrically self-sufficient, should have an INDIVIDUAl over-unity of at least 5. Therefore, Santilli's hadronic reactors in their current first realization (called first level technology operation g at atmospheric pressure and at very small kWh) ARE NOT self-sufficient (that is, they cannot produce their own electric energy) because, even though the over-unity is 5, it IS NOT in one single energy source, but divided into two. However, and this is my main point, the dismissal of an over-unity because it is not self-sufficient is nontechnical trash. In fact, because of the indicated commercial over-unity, Santilli's HADRONIC reactors can produce a fuel cleaner and cheaper than gasoline, besides permitting America to reach fuel independence. William F. Pound John Fields wrote: > Institute for Basic Research wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > There is a limit in skepticism or even criticisms after which any absence of > > counterattack on ethical grounds is complicity by the victim. This is the case > > of Santilli's hadronic reactors and their independently certified "commercial > > over-unity" > > > > http://www.santillimagnegas.com > > > > The reactors (many of them) are available in Florida for everybody to see; > > they are now even in production for sale. Any doubt of their large commercial > > over-unity is just human trash. > > > > Because of this evidence, when faced with criticisms or skepticism's on the > > hadronic reactors we first provide a chance to get all needed facts. After > > that, if the criticisms or skepticisms continue, WE AT ON ETHICAL GROUNDSY, > > because, again, silence or gentle response under these conditions becomes > > complicity > > > > William F. Pound > > Institute for Basic Research > > > > PS. It is symptomatic that nobody from Vortex has asked to personally visit > > and measure the large commercial over-unity of Santilli's hadronic reactors > > while I see rivers of words going on other, comparatively truly marginal and > > debatable reactors. I begin to get suspicious on this. It is clearly fishy. > > > > --- > > I don't understand what you mean by "commercial over-unity", but I > suspect that if you were to take the output gas from the machine and use > it to generate the electric arc required to make the machine function, > the machine would come to a screeching halt. > > --- > > John Fields -- ********************************* Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli President INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH Editor in Chief ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES HADRONIC JOURNAL HADRONIC J. SUPPL. Editor INTERN. J. PHYSICS BALKAN J. of GEOMETRY and its APPLICATIONS __________________________________________ THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH P. O. Box 1577 Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A. Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275 E-address ibr gte.net Web sites http://www.i-b-r.org http://www.santillimagnegas.com _________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 08:43:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10502; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:40:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:40:07 -0800 Message-ID: <002401c06459$dcd11210$901a010a argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: , References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:37:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"5IJvt1.0.pZ2.cJbDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I find it strange and a little frightening how the simplest concepts and facts > are overlooked by certain people, especially those supporting Bush. > > The most basic concept of the US system is that each vote is important and > needs to be counted. In Florida, a small fraction of the votes were not > counted by machines for various reasons. Because these votes would probably > go against Bush, his people did everything they could to prevent these votes > from being counted. This approach was not applied in states where the count > was expected to favor Bush. "It matters not how the votes are cast; rather how they are counted!" I am surprised how those on the Gore side are so insistant that the votes be counted THEIR WAY. These facts are crucial to the outcome of the vote count: 1) There is no provision in Florida law for a statewide recount; only selected recounts in various counties under special circumstances. This is a fundamental problem, given that the punch-card ballots have a 3% margin of error. By selecting specific Gore counties to count by hand, he would certainly have picked up hundreds of votes, while similar votes for Bush remained sitting in Bush counties, uncounted. This is certainly not democratic. 2) Allowing counties to select individual standards for counting ballots is completely at odds with the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, and would allow votes for one candidate to be skewed IF the counties counting his votes adopted a more liberal standard than other counties. The votes in Broward County, 550+, would be reduced to less than 150 if they used the same standard as West Palm Beach. 3) The Supreme Court of Florida did NOT effectively order a complete, state-wide, recount. They ordered a statewide recount to START, and they ordered that all legally found votes, on Dec. 12, be certified. This, again, skews the total for Al Gore because the Bush counties would not even have finished separating the undervotes from their totals by this date. Gore counties, which had started their counts three weeks ago, would have had MORE VOTES COUNTED as a proportion to the total. 4) By refusing to allow ALL votes to be recounted, Florida's Supreme court AGAIN skews the outcome of the result with their last order. Duval county officials opined that there would be no way to be sure that ballots marked as undervotes, separated by machines, would be the SAME BALLOTS as those not counted during the previous machine recount. The ONLY WAY to be certain that all ballots are counted, without some being missed, and without some being counted twice, is to recount ALL of the ballots by hand; not just those that were spit-out by a machine during a second run-through, while not counting the other ballots that the machines did NOT kick-out. The problem is, and has been, that no provision in Florida law allows for a full, statewide, hand recount. If Al Gore had wanted to win, (and be fair about it), he should have asked for a full recount of the whole state, and not just his selected counties. He tried to cherry-pick those counties, and this is what's coming back to bite him. Given that there are an estimated 45,000 undervotes which have not been counted, and that 35,000 of those are from Bush counties, George Bush would almost certainly win the election, if they were all hand-counted with the same standard. However, it's not George Bush's job to order those counts, nor to seek them. An honest challenger should have taken it upon himself. Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12959; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:30:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:30:54 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4f.4a88432.2767ba80 aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:29:36 EST Subject: Re: Bearden's MEG Paper To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 126 Resent-Message-ID: <"da4LS3.0.OA3.13cDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 12/12/00 8:02:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, commengr bellsouth.net writes: > Has Tom's MEG paper been pulled or relocated? > > The URL I have bookmarked is: > > http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/MEGpaper.pdf > > which returns "Sorry, we were unable to find the page you > requested." > > Terry > I understand Bearden removed the paper on the advice of his patent lawers. But.... There is a link to the paper at this site. http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm The link is near the bottom of the page in the section "Interesting papers and documents about the project" Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 http://hometown.aol.com/vcockeram/myhomepage/index.html H2K Glow Discharge From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:03:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17404; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212122356.00bdbb80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:35:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <002401c06459$dcd11210$901a010a argis.com> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"czih-.0.bF4.uGcDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: >I am surprised how those on the Gore side are so insistant that the votes be >counted THEIR WAY. As a Democrat I agree this was an idiotic policy. >These facts are crucial to the outcome of the vote count: > >1) There is no provision in Florida law for a statewide recount; only >selected recounts in various counties under special circumstances. This is a >fundamental problem, given that the punch-card ballots have a 3% margin of >error. This is not quite right. It isn't the card that have the 3% error, it is the counting machines. Their error rate varies by as much as a factor of five. The older, less reliable machines are generally found in urban, Democratic districts. > By selecting specific Gore counties to count by hand, he would >certainly have picked up hundreds of votes, while similar votes for Bush >remained sitting in Bush counties, uncounted. This is certainly not >democratic. Quite right. >3) The Supreme Court of Florida did NOT effectively order a complete, >state-wide, recount. They ordered a statewide recount to START . . . As I pointed out in my message, from the point of view of old-fashioned batch processing with punch cards, the Supreme Court method was by far the best. >4) By refusing to allow ALL votes to be recounted, Florida's Supreme court >AGAIN skews the outcome of the result with their last order. I disagree -- based strictly on DP standards & practices, which I hope are not biased by my admittedly partisan point of view. I would modify the Supreme Court method slightly, the way I described. Incidentally, objective statistical reviews I have seen predict that Bush would win a count based on the methods I described. It would be ironic if the count proceeds and he does win. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 10:19:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25564; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:12:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:21:44 -0500 To: storms2 ix.netcom.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9DFQF.0.BF6.UgcDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, since Ed has jumped in I would like to add my two cents from a data processing point of view, which will upset both Democrats and Republicans. I myself am a Democrat, and I'm still hoping Gore wins. I'd like to make a couple of points. One. Probably, the difference between the Gore and Bush totals is statistically insignificant and impossible to determine. As one mathematics professor remarked, it is like trying to measure a bacteria with a yardstick. Whether you measure by machines or do a hand count, the answer will never come out the same twice. A hand count will be even more variable if you apply the standards approved in Texas by Gov. Bush, which call for approval of so-called pregnant chad. We might as well stick to a somewhat arbitrary number selected by a machine. Two. The notion that machines are objective and a hand count is subjective or unusual is absurd. The machines are subject to known error rates. Everyone knows that the machines in urban, mainly Democratic districts are older and subject to much higher error and dropout rates. They fail 1 in ~60 times versus 1 in ~300 for the Republican districts. Normally, this does not make a difference in an election, but in this case it must be considered. I worked with punch cards and paper tape during the final years these media were in common use. I was documenting applications such as municipal billing for water, or trash collections, which in those days involved sending out punch cards. A key issue in every data processing system that relied upon this media was "exceptions handling" or manual override. A certain percentage of the cards were "folded, spindled or mutilated" and the card readers were notoriously prone to failure. A corporation or municipal agency running a billing operation without carefully planned manual override functions would be in deep trouble. Leaving the operation up to the machines, without daily human intervention and auditing, would lead to chaos. Believe me, I have seen it! This is why billing errors made by large corporations sometimes never seem to get straightened out. Even though today's large-scale billing and accounting systems are hundreds of times more reliable, a careful system of exceptions handling is still essential. When the machine is confused (which happens much more often than you might think), it must be programmed to call for help. People are far better at judging data than machines. If someone had asked me to straighten out the Florida mess, I would have known what to do immediately, and my method would have been simple. It is close to what the Florida Supreme Court ordered. Any 1970s era DP grunt programmer would know what to do, in his sleep. I would take the following steps, which would not be difficult if the equipment works the way I am used to: First, a committee of Democrats and Republicans must first establish a firm set of rules regarding exceptions such as "pregnant chads." I would favor the liberal Texas rules, but I would accept any reasonable set of rules, "one corner, two corner" or what-have-you. On to the batch processing procedures: 1. Put the cards in some arbitrary order, and leave them in that order. 2. Run them through the readers three times, and record the output on a more capable, modern computer. Any desktop PC will do. It would be best to run each batch through a different reader. 3. Compare the three runs. This can be tricky where there are dropouts, and the sequences fail to match, but I have a loads of experience doing similar jobs, and it isn't all that tricky. Identify cards that give a different answer in one of the three runs, or cards which are not marked for either Bush or Gore. These are the "exceptions." 4. Manually pull the exceptions and examine them, according to the rules. Where there are disagreements, half should be decided by a Republican arbiter, and half should be decided by a Democrat. There is no need to pull cards which the machines read as either Bush or Gore consistently three times. In fact, since most cards fall in this category, and since there is such an enormous number of such cards, the machines will tally them more accurately than any human could do. Machines are good at dealing with large amounts of unambiguous data; human beings are better at judging exceptional data. The trick is to use the strength of both automated and manual systems. A paper punch card system is a hybrid automated - manual one. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 11:08:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10011; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:00:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:00:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A366B95.DC113C2D groupz.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:16:53 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212122356.00bdbb80@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uHNlx2.0.HS2.FNdDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gore messed up...according to the constitution a law must be applied equally within a state....the state law allowed for recount in the case of machine error...or fraud.... Gore should have asked asked for recount, based on machine error, in those counties where those older machines were used. That would have been within state laws and because it would have applied to all counties, that used the machines...the federal court would not have gotten involved.... steve opelc Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Craig Haynie wrote: > > >I am surprised how those on the Gore side are so insistant that the votes be > >counted THEIR WAY. > > As a Democrat I agree this was an idiotic policy. > > >These facts are crucial to the outcome of the vote count: > > > >1) There is no provision in Florida law for a statewide recount; only > >selected recounts in various counties under special circumstances. This is a > >fundamental problem, given that the punch-card ballots have a 3% margin of > >error. > > This is not quite right. It isn't the card that have the 3% error, it is > the counting machines. Their error rate varies by as much as a factor of > five. The older, less reliable machines are generally found in urban, > Democratic districts. > > > By selecting specific Gore counties to count by hand, he would > >certainly have picked up hundreds of votes, while similar votes for Bush > >remained sitting in Bush counties, uncounted. This is certainly not > >democratic. > > Quite right. > > >3) The Supreme Court of Florida did NOT effectively order a complete, > >state-wide, recount. They ordered a statewide recount to START . . . > > As I pointed out in my message, from the point of view of old-fashioned > batch processing with punch cards, the Supreme Court method was by far the > best. > > >4) By refusing to allow ALL votes to be recounted, Florida's Supreme court > >AGAIN skews the outcome of the result with their last order. > > I disagree -- based strictly on DP standards & practices, which I hope are > not biased by my admittedly partisan point of view. I would modify the > Supreme Court method slightly, the way I described. > > Incidentally, objective statistical reviews I have seen predict that Bush > would win a count based on the methods I described. It would be ironic if > the count proceeds and he does win. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 11:44:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20601; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A36687E.2F1FC378 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:03:46 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A@ix.netcom.com> <002401c06459$dcd11210$901a010a@argis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vdfcu1.0.o15.0wdDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > > I find it strange and a little frightening how the simplest concepts and > facts > > are overlooked by certain people, especially those supporting Bush. > > > > The most basic concept of the US system is that each vote is important and > > needs to be counted. In Florida, a small fraction of the votes were not > > counted by machines for various reasons. Because these votes would > probably > > go against Bush, his people did everything they could to prevent these > votes > > from being counted. This approach was not applied in states where the > count > > was expected to favor Bush. > > "It matters not how the votes are cast; rather how they are counted!" > > I am surprised how those on the Gore side are so insistant that the votes be > counted THEIR WAY. No, this is not the issue. Any method of counting that would show the intent of the voter would be all right with any fair-minded person, Gore supporters included. And by the way, I am not a Gore supporter. > > > These facts are crucial to the outcome of the vote count: > > 1) There is no provision in Florida law for a statewide recount; only > selected recounts in various counties under special circumstances. This is a > fundamental problem, given that the punch-card ballots have a 3% margin of > error. By selecting specific Gore counties to count by hand, he would > certainly have picked up hundreds of votes, while similar votes for Bush > remained sitting in Bush counties, uncounted. This is certainly not > democratic. I agree, this is not democratic. If the Bush people had raised this issue rather than stopping ALL counts, and sufficient time had been allowed, a fair recount of all ballots missed by the machines could have been done. Instead, Bush tried to lock in a certain win instead of the uncertain win of a complete recount would produce. > > > 2) Allowing counties to select individual standards for counting ballots is > completely at odds with the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, and would > allow votes for one candidate to be skewed IF the counties counting his > votes adopted a more liberal standard than other counties. The votes in > Broward County, 550+, would be reduced to less than 150 if they used the > same standard as West Palm Beach. Again, I agree - the same standard should be applied. And while we are at it, the same method of voting should be used, one that does not produce these problems. Nevertheless, the Bush people should have fought this fight rather than trying for a quick win by stopping all counts. > > > 3) The Supreme Court of Florida did NOT effectively order a complete, > state-wide, recount. They ordered a statewide recount to START, and they > ordered that all legally found votes, on Dec. 12, be certified. This, again, > skews the total for Al Gore because the Bush counties would not even have > finished separating the undervotes from their totals by this date. Gore > counties, which had started their counts three weeks ago, would have had > MORE VOTES COUNTED as a proportion to the total. Naturally, some counties would be slow and some votes would be missed. The goal is to include as many as possible. While this factor might favor Gore, Bush picked up some extra votes from the absentee ballots that were not counted using uniform standards. I would expect some statistical variation that would favor both sides more or less equally, provided a sincere effort was made in the counting. Both Gore and Bush should have agree on having a fair recount. > > > 4) By refusing to allow ALL votes to be recounted, Florida's Supreme court > AGAIN skews the outcome of the result with their last order. Duval county > officials opined that there would be no way to be sure that ballots marked > as undervotes, separated by machines, would be the SAME BALLOTS as those not > counted during the previous machine recount. The ONLY WAY to be certain that > all ballots are counted, without some being missed, and without some being > counted twice, is to recount ALL of the ballots by hand; not just those that > were spit-out by a machine during a second run-through, while not counting > the other ballots that the machines did NOT kick-out. Once again, incompetence intervenes and makes a perfect count impossible. But, is this a good reason to ignore voters in counties that got their act together? > > > The problem is, and has been, that no provision in Florida law allows for a > full, statewide, hand recount. If Al Gore had wanted to win, (and be fair > about it), he should have asked for a full recount of the whole state, and > not just his selected counties. He tried to cherry-pick those counties, and > this is what's coming back to bite him. I would expect Gore to ask for a recount of those counties that favored him and Bush to do the same. Many counties would not be in dispute. Instead, Bush did not ask for a recount of his counties, but tried to stop all counting because he was ahead. In other states where he was not ahead, he found no problem in asking for a recount. > > > Given that there are an estimated 45,000 undervotes which have not been > counted, and that 35,000 of those are from Bush counties, George Bush would > almost certainly win the election, if they were all hand-counted with the > same standard. However, it's not George Bush's job to order those counts, > nor to seek them. An honest challenger should have taken it upon himself. Your conclusion may or may not be true. In any case, Bush with the help of the Supreme Court pulled the plug before we could find out. Scholars will no doubt examine the ballots in the future and provide us with the true count, but too late. Meanwhile Bush will have very little respect and a damned mad opposition, and all of us will be worse off as a result. Ed Storms (New Mexico) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:40:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13774; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:35:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:35:07 -0800 Message-ID: <004301c0648e$89208f80$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: Subject: Re: The existance of EV's Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:54:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"hQRNG3.0.-M3.gOhDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Oh, I must have assumed your dA/dt meant a/@t, or didn't even really > notice it, but it was George Holtz' dA/dx that caught my eye as possibly > something he really meant. It would be interesting to get more of a > description of his experiment and especially how he excluded other than A > field effects. - Like Robin I just wasn't paying attention and or partial derivative would be appropriate. Actually I need to look at the textbook for the alternative EM formulation again to make sure that this is right. I have a hard time visualizing A. I am sure that the force I am measuring appears to be created by the gradient of the curl of B along the path. The experiment is not that complex to describe but would take a lot of graphics to really make it clear. I almost finished a write-up of an earlier version that was less definitive including graphs and pictures but--- everyone who actually does experiments with it already accepts the longitudinal force so it went on the back burner. - Basically, a T conductor geometry with the top of the T vertical was used with a mercury droplet to allow vertical motion of the vertical center conductor. The milligram scale that I used allowed me to make the second electrical connection through the shaped aluminum block forming the measuring element of the scale. Yes, in about 5 seconds the heating would move the reading by a few milligrams from scale heating, but this was much better than I could get with the best flexible connection techniques that I tried. At 20 amps you don't want the measurement to last too long with the Hg droplet connection anyway. - A miniature C core with very small disk magnets inside was used to create the B gradients while helping to confine the region of interaction. Even so, the various Lorentz forces have to be either carefully cancelled geometrically or isolated by the Hg droplet. Some torques could not be perfectly canceled, but the scale was quite immune to these because of it's design. The B field direction of the magnet assembly was horizontal if the symmetrical (Lorentz canceling) fringing fields are disregarded. The magnet assembly was moved in from the side of the T away from the Hg droplet side of the vertical conductor. As I moved the magnet assembly with a lead screw, the dependence of the vertical force on the curl of B was quite clear for the several magnet geometries I tried. Maximum force was obtained with a zero absolute B field at the (droplet T joint -vertical conductor) with left/right, right/left sequential B field magnet geometries. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:46:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12740; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:34:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:15:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"YvqvR.0.Q63.nNhDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed. What concerns me more is the fact that due to the actions of both parties more and more elections are going to be decided on tighter and tighter margins. Already we are below the noise floor, and I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of either candidate in an election indistinguishable from chance. This is the true crisis, the quality of the candidates is such that we have been reduced to flipping a coin. The Supreme Court stopped the count for the reason that some standard need be applied across the board for vote counting. Both sides are guilty in this respect, for example Republican party members were allowed to add voter ID numbers to some 1500 republican votes, making them valid votes. Now, these are real votes, and should be counted, but by permitting this the election was tilted unfairly. Dems also attempted to tilt the scales, by questioning the butterfly ballot in palm beach. There is a real issue here as well, but if they're successfull the scales will again tilt unfairly. In the case of hand vote recounting, each district was using some different criteria to judge. This question was put directly to Gore's counsel yesterday, and his answer (which was actually pretty clever) was to say that the critera was altered to match the voting method. Not entirely true, but probably the best spin to put on an undecidable issue. Bush's position ( simply rely on the machine ) does fit the need for an impartial standard, but when all the machines are different and poor districts ( who traditionally vote democratic ) are using say %3 accurate machines and wealthy districts ( traditionally republican ) are using say .1% accurate machines, you can see who has the advantage. Remember, an inaccuracy causes the vote to be rejected. The relevant consideration for this list is as follows. Let's say you've devised some new energy creating system, and you need political support to move forward. Can folks comment about which candidate they'd prefer to pitch their idea to? Particularly I'd like to hear Mr. Randall comment on this question. As you are clearly leaning towards Mr. Bush, how would you expect a Bush administration to help in this regard? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:46:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15617; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:36:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212174138.00c034b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:43:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC: "Dimpled chad" errors self-cancel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Uy6cY2.0.lp3.QQhDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is something I should have realized. Everyone who does experiments should have seen it. As Berman points out in the attached quotes, random errors in a large data set cancel out, so obviously all "dimpled chad" ballots should be counted. The result must reflect conscious choice, because the mistakes will cancel out. - Jed From Slate magazine Slate.msn.com Simple Math and Dimpled Chad By Paul Berman Posted Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2000, at 1:41 p.m. PT "Dimpled chad will be puzzling moral philosophers for centuries," asserts Slate's editor, reflecting the widespread view that they raise a difficult question. But on the question of how or whether to count a dimpled chad as a valid vote--there ought to be no puzzlement at all. In obeyance to the laws of logic and probability, dimpled chad should ALWAYS be counted as valid votes, together with any other mark on a ballot. Here is why: A mark on a ballot might indicate an intended vote. Or it might indicate nothing at all and be the result of an accident--for instance, an accidental bruise made by a stylus. There is no other possibility. It must be one or the other. But accidental marks, being accidental, will distribute themselves around a ballot randomly. Al Gore will receive a certain number of accident marks, but so will Bush, Nader, Buchanan, David McReynolds of the Socialist Party, and all the other candidates, unto the most minor. And each of those candidates, major and minor, will receive pretty much the same number of accidental marks. A candidate who receives more marks than some other candidate can have done so only through the active choice of the voters. Thus, if someone does eventually tally up the "undervote" ballots in Florida, and if, say, Gore comes in first, with Bush second, followed by Nader, Buchanan, McReynolds, and so on through the list of candidates, there can be only one possible explanation, logically speaking. The explanation must be that voters chose to vote in that fashion. May I point out an obvious conclusion? The United States and its Supreme Court are right now bollixed up over a simple logical error. Florida law instructs the ballot counters to determine the intent of the voters. Nothing could be easier or simpler to do. . . . The ballot counters merely have to tally up all the marks on the ballots and not worry about the intentions of the voters. The unintended marks will cancel each other out, and the intended marks will register differently for each candidate. In short, a hand count of all marks will show the voter's intentions willy-nilly. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:48:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19331; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:40:39 -0800 Message-ID: <20001212223938.2895.qmail web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:39:38 -0800 (PST) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: Bearden's Ideas To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nDSoa.0.Sj4.pThDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Gnorts, Vorts! > > Tom has a August 28, 2000 letter to Power > Engineering > International published at: > > http://www.cseti.org/bearden/magic_asked.htm > I had placed some Beardon references at my old messageboard, but as it turns out these were lost when insidetheweb decided to delete all entries after 90 days when these were supposed to be a 999 day lifetime,so I dont know what this referenced document's name is, but here is something noted from the past; Now back to Beardon; here are some statements I disagree with. [Since Lorentz, our engineers are taught to calculate the energy dissipation flow in circuits, and erroneously call it the "Poynting energy flow." The result is that most "power" engineers really no longer know the difference between energy transport (which need not have any change in form, and therefore have zero power) and energy divergence (which has a change in form, hence exhibits power). Power is rigorously the time rate of doing work. Hence it is the time-rate of changing the form of energy. If there is no change of form of the energy, as it propagates, it has zero power. Further, power is developed locally in each "dissipating" component or "component changing the form" of the energy. It is NOT in the battery of generator. To speak of "drawing power from the generator or the battery is an oxymoron and a monstrosity. Yet our texts and journal papers are filled with just those phrases. Let us make this very concrete. Take a charged capacitor, and lay it on top of a permanent magnet so that the E-field of the capacitor is at right angles to the H-field of the magnet. Then the standard Poynting flow S is given by S = ExH, which is maximized for a 90-degree angle between E and H. In fact, the magnitude S of S is just the product of the two magnitudes E and H. The direction of S is at right angles to both E and H, and given by the usual right hand rule. Well, even by orthodox theory, that is a Poynting energy generator. I just sits there and pours out free energy, directly extracting it from the vacuum. There are two dipoles -- one electrical and one magnetic -- continuously serving as an asymmetry in the fierce vacuum flux.] (HDN Comment) I am entirely unfamiliar with this "Poynting flow" but I am somewhat familiar with the lorentz law. As it is pointed out to me by diciphering of physics laws the lorentz force law only applies when the electric field E causes charge movement: THEN a perpendicular B magnetic field will produce a force at right angles to both E and B in direct proportion to the charge movement caused by E. If E causes little or no charge movement, the lorentz force is correspondingly reduced. Correct me when I am wrong but Beardon seems to imply that the same conditions exist in a static case, which by physics laws is not the case. Consulting again the classic text; University Physics pg 470, "displacement currents contribute to magnetic fields in the same way as conduction currents." All this poynting vector stuff is only the vector solution of the interacting E and B fields in space that are themselves an interelationship. Again the text; "There is a mutual interaction between time varying electric and magnetic fields. A time varying magnetic field sets up an electric field and a time varying electric field sets up a magnetic field. This interaction makes possible the existance of an electromagnetic wave." In JLN's The Poynting Flow Thruster v1.0 http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/pft01.htm it is seen by making the introduction of current at one end of the capacitor plates, this net reaction force can become assymmetrical, producing a net movement of the capacitor. However the vector forces are concieved of being external to the capacitor, when in reality they are of internal origin, simply the E x B resultant force as made by Lorentz force law, with the exception that the fields involved are of dual origin obtained from a instantaneous self interaction and not single fields in interaction. If these fields were instead of a single origin the effect should be much stronger. But here we have the problems of those that insist that a self reaction force cannot act on itself, so by declaring the Poynting vector to be of external origin this issue is side stepped. Indeed if we power a sailboat with an onboard fan, the reaction forces cancel the input because the reaction force is in line with the input. But if we push a gyroscope the reaction force is not in line but produces a precessional force 90 degrees to the input. What this theoretically means is that if we place a plate capacitor on edge with the E field perpendicular to gravity, and also place windings around the capacitor to establish a B field perpendicular to the E field of the capacitor, then during the charge times of the L and C elements for a DC input, there should be a momentary self reaction force for the Lorentz force that should act as an exterior force to change the weight of the device. But once both fields are established, contrary to Beardons analogy, no reaction force should be noted. Carrying the idea a bit further for antigravity proposals, we immediately see that is desirable to have this reaction force continually acting, and to start to think about that we could input AC instead of DC. In the first example what would become problematic is that we would want L and C to have the same time constants. This carries over in the idea of now inputing AC to both L and C quantities. But to produce the greatest volume of electric and magnetic fields per power input or more precisely voltage input, we need these quantities to be in series resonance. The experimental apparatus itself consists of two L and C quantities which always has a resonant frequency by formula. Thus the first problem becomes making those L and C quantities fit the parameter of what frequency we can send into the device. After all that is done it is found that the reaction force will oscillate at twice the input frequency, because the electric and magnetic fields are NOT simultaneous in resonance, but rather individually themselves expressed as kinetic and potential energies that are expressed ninety degrees out of phase in time. So obviously that idea takes one nowhere because for any net force counteracting gravity, the next quarter cycle will deliver one aiding it. The solution of course would be to cause a unidirectional lorentz force output. To do this both E and B need to identically expand and collapse in the same timing. A single phase of resonance can never satisfy that requirement because of the inherent 90 degree actions of the fields. To satisfy that requirement we would need to have two phases of resonance, with each of their respective inputs themselves 90 degrees out of phase. Then the resonant C quantity could be placed inside the space of the other phases L quantity and vice versa. When one reaction force quits working on one side because it has reached its zero AC crossing, the other device will be at its maximum lifting power, so that a reaction force is continually acting as a unidirectional manner from one of the two devices. This is why I think that the importance of 90 degree phasing as a power input has been completely ignored, also considering the expense of producing it. In a way the 90 degree phasing offers a hitherfore unheard of system. A normal system will have an oscillation of kinetic and potential energies so that these add to a constant, by the conservation of energy. If we attempt to interact these energies in space whenever one is full the other is empty. In the second version one system is creating a full electric field at the same time period the other phase is creating a full magnetic field, producing an interaction in space that makes one wonder, can that reaction contain more energy than either field alone? At first glance the reaction would seem to contain 40% more energy than either phases input simultaneously in time added together. Time will tell if this possibility is true as I have constructed such a 90 degree 3 phase generator and only lack one final 6th large induction coil for a 6 phase testing, with three groups of 90 degree phasings coupled with E and B orthogally juxtaposed. If we have a set of energy oscillations where the kinetic and potential energies simultaneously increase and interact in space in seeming contradiction to the conservation of energy law, what better deal can you get? Sincerely HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 15:49:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25838; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:42:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:42:35 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:46:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A362FB1.CC67502A@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3A362FB1.CC67502A pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA25770 Resent-Message-ID: <"7hc5M2.0.aJ6.dVhDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:01:21 -0800: [snip] >I'm still searching for a higher level problem that would involving coupling, i.e. >a reason why IR wouldn't be absorbed in a stepwise succession by an electron beam. [snip] This is of course the core problem. If it does happen, then the electron beam will absorb energy cooling the tube, and the insulation layer will work just fine. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 16:21:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22808; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:19:38 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:12:57 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a378ff8.1344103361 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA22384 Resent-Message-ID: <"hriUz2.0.Ia5.Q2iDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:21:44 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >A hand count will be even more variable >if you apply the standards approved in Texas by Gov. Bush, which call for >approval of so-called pregnant chad. We might as well stick to a somewhat >arbitrary number selected by a machine. I see you've fallen for that media hype. That law was signed by the former Texas governor, Ann Richards (Democrat). >If someone had asked me to straighten out the Florida mess, I would have >known what to do immediately, and my method would have been simple. It is >close to what the Florida Supreme Court ordered. Any 1970s era DP grunt >programmer would know what to do, in his sleep. I would take the following >steps, which would not be difficult if the equipment works the way I am >used to: > >First, a committee of Democrats and Republicans must first establish a firm >set of rules regarding exceptions such as "pregnant chads." I would favor >the liberal Texas rules, but I would accept any reasonable set of rules, >"one corner, two corner" or what-have-you. Nope. El-wrongo. In order for a ballot to be valid, the voter must properly follow the instructions that are printed on how to handle the ballot. No "one corner, two corner," dimples, pregnancies, etc. should be allowed. Please remember that these card ballots are not exactly like punch (IBM/Hollerith) cards. The selections are micro-perfed, so an experienced person wouldn't find it hard to pop some of the chads loose during manual handling. >On to the batch processing procedures: > >1. Put the cards in some arbitrary order, and leave them in that order. In addition, each batch must be counted to be the exact, same size (with the exception of the last batch). And this count must be verified at every step. >2. Run them through the readers three times, and record the output on a >more capable, modern computer. Any desktop PC will do. It would be best to >run each batch through a different reader. > >3. Compare the three runs. This can be tricky where there are dropouts, and >the sequences fail to match, but I have a loads of experience doing similar >jobs, and it isn't all that tricky. Identify cards that give a different >answer in one of the three runs, or cards which are not marked for either >Bush or Gore. These are the "exceptions." This is where I become puzzled. I, too, have worked extensively with punched card systems (in the late 50's, 60's and into the 70's -- as well as paper tape setups in the same era). Decks of punched cards can be run through machines hundreds (and thousands, for program decks) of times without error. Cards that have been handled extensively by consumers/customers can be in poor shape, and can have lots of exceptions. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR BALLOTS. Ballots are handled once, in a controlled voting environment. From that point on, they should be handled only by experienced DP (IS) personnel. IOW, the error rate should be reasonably low. >4. Manually pull the exceptions and examine them, according to the rules. >Where there are disagreements, half should be decided by a Republican >arbiter, and half should be decided by a Democrat. > >There is no need to pull cards which the machines read as either Bush or >Gore consistently three times. In fact, since most cards fall in this >category, and since there is such an enormous number of such cards, the >machines will tally them more accurately than any human could do. Machines >are good at dealing with large amounts of unambiguous data; human beings >are better at judging exceptional data. The trick is to use the strength of >both automated and manual systems. A paper punch card system is a hybrid >automated - manual one. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 16:37:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02129; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:25:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:25:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212160318.00c02410 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:16:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges / status of New Mexico In-Reply-To: <3A36687E.2F1FC378 ix.netcom.com> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> <002401c06459$dcd11210$901a010a argis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"fzIHQ3.0.7X.c7iDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Scholars will no doubt >examine the ballots in the future and provide us with the true count, but too >late. News organizations plan to do this immediately, as soon as the official procedures wrap up. The Florida laws guarantee them access to the ballots. The count may be done before January 20. I would not want to be President Bush in February 2001 when every newspaper in the country reports that I actually lost by 2,000 votes. Better to find out now, I think. > Meanwhile Bush will have very little respect and a damned mad >opposition, and all of us will be worse off as a result. Actually, I would prefer to be a Republican President with an upset Democratic opposition than vice versa. >Ed Storms (New Mexico) Ah, New Mexico, where they know a thing or two about counting ballots. Someone there wrote "650" with a pen and for a while they thought it was "150." New Mexico became famous here in Atlanta during the Olympics, as explained in the Atlanta Constitution, February 29, 1996: TICKET SELLER HAS A GAP IN HER MAP By Lyle V. Harris STAFF WRITER For a while, New Mexico resident Wade Miller thought he must be in a foreign country-and would need a passport to get to the Atlanta Games. An Olympic volleyball fan from the 47th state, Miller found out while ordering tickets by phone this week that operators for the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games apparently are geographically impaired. "She put me on hold, then came back and said she couldn't sell tickets to someone who lives outside of the United States." Miller, a 31-year-old computer systems analyst from Santa Fe, said Wednesday. Miller spent half an hour vainly trying to convince the ticket agent that New Mexico is part of the United States. Unmoved by 84 years of statehood, she transferred Miller to her supervisor. "I told [the supervisor] I was calling from New Mexico and emphasized the New," Miller said. "She told me, 'Sir, New Mexico, old Mexico, it doesn't matter. I understand it's a territory, but you still have to go through your nation's Olympic committee.'" Exasperated, Miller devised a clever ruse: he gave the address of a second home in Arizona and told the agent to send the tickets there. Scott Anderson, ACOG's managing director of Games Services, described the incident as a one-time occurrence with a confused ticket agent and said the problem already had been corrected. "The good news is that the agent was courteous, and Mr. Miller did get his tickets," Anderson said. "We're just going to have to have a chat about geography." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 16:50:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12377; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:47:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:47:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A36C6FC.2456D39E groupz.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:46:52 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges / status of New Mexico References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <3A364060.847EBF8A ix.netcom.com> <002401c06459$dcd11210$901a010a argis.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212160318.00c02410@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I1aGe1.0.E13.5SiDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: LOL (laugh on line).....thank you Jed....has been a bad day and I really needed that.....except now have coffee all over my keyboard...........steve Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Scholars will no doubt > >examine the ballots in the future and provide us with the true count, but too > >late. > > News organizations plan to do this immediately, as soon as the official > procedures wrap up. The Florida laws guarantee them access to the ballots. > The count may be done before January 20. I would not want to be President > Bush in February 2001 when every newspaper in the country reports that I > actually lost by 2,000 votes. Better to find out now, I think. > > > Meanwhile Bush will have very little respect and a damned mad > >opposition, and all of us will be worse off as a result. > > Actually, I would prefer to be a Republican President with an upset > Democratic opposition than vice versa. > > >Ed Storms (New Mexico) > > Ah, New Mexico, where they know a thing or two about counting ballots. > Someone there wrote "650" with a pen and for a while they thought it was > "150." New Mexico became famous here in Atlanta during the Olympics, as > explained in the Atlanta Constitution, February 29, 1996: > > TICKET SELLER HAS A GAP IN HER MAP > > By Lyle V. Harris STAFF WRITER > > For a while, New Mexico resident Wade Miller thought he must be in a > foreign country-and would need a passport to get to the Atlanta Games. > > An Olympic volleyball fan from the 47th state, Miller found out while > ordering tickets by phone this week that operators for the Atlanta > Committee for the Olympic Games apparently are geographically impaired. > > "She put me on hold, then came back and said she couldn't sell tickets to > someone who lives outside of the United States." Miller, a 31-year-old > computer systems analyst from Santa Fe, said Wednesday. > > Miller spent half an hour vainly trying to convince the ticket agent that > New Mexico is part of the United States. Unmoved by 84 years of statehood, > she transferred Miller to her supervisor. "I told [the supervisor] I was > calling from New Mexico and emphasized the New," Miller said. "She told me, > 'Sir, New Mexico, old Mexico, it doesn't matter. I understand it's a > territory, but you still have to go through your nation's Olympic committee.'" > > Exasperated, Miller devised a clever ruse: he gave the address of a second > home in Arizona and told the agent to send the tickets there. > > Scott Anderson, ACOG's managing director of Games Services, described the > incident as a one-time occurrence with a confused ticket agent and said the > problem already had been corrected. > > "The good news is that the agent was courteous, and Mr. Miller did get his > tickets," Anderson said. "We're just going to have to have a chat about > geography." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 16:55:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03587; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:34:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:34:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A36C40D.ED2ABE19 groupz.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:34:21 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Regarding my political comments on this forum.... References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <3a378ff8.1344103361@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wUgmm3.0.xt.kGiDw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A lot of my comments are being made, on what I remember covering in school, where a lot of the debating classes were based on the constitution....this was 40 or 50 years ago. At the time, it was felt that any person, before they voted, should have at least a minimum understanding of the constitution and state governments and the papers/ideas supporting them. So if anyone finds any errors that I have made...please understand... and correct me.....thank you....steve opelc From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 17:17:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27766; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:08:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:08:11 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Cc: Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:10:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"RX1HI2.0.mn6.wliDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. Sorry if the last post seemed redundant, it wasn't when I sent the bloody thing at noon today. It took my mail server quite a while to contact eskimo, as you can see.... steve opelc writes: >Appears you may have a slight errors....the applications for >ballots had a printing error on them...they were supposed to be >numbered by the printer...and were not. The republicans hand >entered the numbers that were left off by the printer. This >correction was made to the applications, not to the returned >ballots. Here is a link to the story explaining the details on CNN. http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/12/11/county.html Indeed, Steve seems to be correct on this point, thanks for the heads up. I would still question the judgement of Sandra Goard for letting GOP people mark up the ballots after being delivered to her office. Probably a better example would be the acceptance of absentee ballots ( primarily military who traditionally vote 2:1 in favor of republican )with no postmark and ones with no witness signature etc. Again these are in all likelyhood valid votes, but should they be counted? I stress the fact that BOTH SIDES feel the law should bend to accomdate their votes. I guess I don't blame either side for trying to tilt the pinball machine. The results don't matter in the slightest, as they're far below the noise floor to begin with. Whomever is crowned King in this election will have taken the throne by the actions of chance. I'm pretty sure that's not what the founding fathers intended. Who is to blame? I'd say, the finger is point squarely back at us. On the other hand, maybe this current result is really the will of the people, as currently neither candidate is president. K. PS: I'm still deeply curious as to what Republican leaning members of the list have to say about how a Bush administration would help the new energy technologies. Gore supporters can likewise comment here about their candidate, althought this may well be an academic exercise. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 17:35:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10178; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:31:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:31:29 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: sno Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:31:27 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A36C40D.ED2ABE19 groupz.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Regarding my political comments on this forum.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"eh2zD1.0.oU2.n5jDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 13-Dec-00, sno, wrote: >A lot of my comments are being made, on what I remember covering >in school, where a lot of the debating classes were based on >the constitution....this was 40 or 50 years ago. >At the time, it was felt that any person, before they voted, should >have at least a minimum understanding of the constitution and state >governments and the papers/ideas supporting them. That's OK, Steve. The Lenninist/liberals of the US Dept of Education have done an excellent job of making The Constitution a stealth document :( -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 17:43:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13781; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:38:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:38:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3A36D565.77BBBD91 austininstruments.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:48:21 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibr gte.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accusation of fraud X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <190787627.20001209103440@imap2.asu.edu> <3A34FEA9.ED702B08@gte.net> <3A34F660.4C603E66@fc.net> <3A3662E6.F1908737@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9OUvV.0.CN3.QCjDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Institute for Basic Research wrote: > > Dear John, > > Thanks for your question. Perhaps you should look at the web suite of the > technology > > http://www.magnegas.com in liquid molecules --- Dear Mr. Pound: Web "suite"? I did inspect your web "site", and found a lot of verbal mumbo-jumbo, along with what seemed to me to be a deliberate attempt to muddle the commonly understood meaning of "overunity" for the purpose of attracting readers to your commercial messages. Your use of the word is tantamount to saying that a stick of dynamite is operating at overunity because it releases much more energy than the match which was used to light the fuse. --- > As you should inspect in the web site, hadronic reactors are designed > to recycle liquid waste, such as antifreeze waste, engine oil waste, > sewage, etc. --- Yes, that's what I found, and that's _all_ they are. --- > Your question regarding the self-sufficiency (the production of its > > own electricity) is out of balance and outside the boundary of science > for this > technology. This is due to the fact that ELECTRIC G ENERATORS ARE > HORRENDOUSLY INEFFICIENT, with best efficiency ranging in the order of > 0.3. --- I believe you are in error here, since best efficiencies can run over 0.9 for straight mechanical-to-electrical conversion. For your machines the efficiency will be lower because of the losses incurred in converting the thermal energy derived from burning the combustible gas into the mechanical energy required to turn the generator shaft, but that wasn't my point. My point was that for your machines to be truly over-unity in the conventional sense they must be _at least_ self-sustaining. By your own admission, yours are clearly not. --- > Therefore, ANY technology, to be electrically self-sufficient, should > have an INDIVIDUAl over-unity of at least 5. > > Therefore, Santilli's hadronic reactors in their current first > realization (called first level technology operation g at atmospheric > pressure and at very small kWh) > ARE NOT self-sufficient (that is, they cannot produce their own > electric energy) because, even though the over-unity is 5, it IS NOT > in one single energy source, > but divided into two. --- Then the short, unembellished, uncontrived answer is, "They are not self-sufficient." --- > However, and this is my main point, the dismissal of an over-unity > because it is not self-sufficient is nontechnical trash. In fact, > because of the indicated commercial over-unity, Santilli's HADRONIC > reactors can produce a fuel cleaner and che aper than gasoline, besides > permitting America to reach fuel independence. > > William F. Pound --- If what you mean by commercial over-unity is that if for a $1 expenditure for electricity and some arbirary amount of sewage you can convert that sewage into fuel which you can sell for $5, then that's fine, but it's not scientific over-unity, it's just turning a profit. IMHO, using a term like over-unity to describe this device is deceptive at best. As for the rest of it, I suggest you read Bill Beatty's latest posts re. the purpose of vortex-l and then try to determine whether your own submissions qualify as "nontechnical trash" or not. --- John Fields, OverUnity Laboratories, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "I speak for my company" http://www.overunitylabs.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 18:12:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30026; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:11:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:11:51 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:36:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"U3SIU.0.3L7.chjDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:01 AM 12/12/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Radiation at the very low end of the IR spectra is unavoidable but I see >no good >reason that it couldn't be held to under 50 % of the total heat rejection >(caloric >flow), The reasons that you can not achieve to supposed insulation are that (1) inward radiation is mostly reabsorbed by opposing inner surfaces and (2) the outer surface area is larger than the inner surface area, and (3) the the pecent of radiation down the tube is only a small percentage of the total inward radiation and (4) the small percentage of heat flow radiated down the tube center mandates a temperature increase of the insulation layers to the point where external radiation (and heat flow via other means if available) achieves equilibrium or the device fails. Dewars achieve a high thermal resistance, but if you put a powered resistor in one, say 10 watts, and the only heat flow outward is through a small speck of a window in the dewar, then the dewar will heat up until it self-destructs or the heat flow reaches equilibrium by radiation or what other means are available to take heat away from the outer surface. The problem is that black body radiation always balances things out if nothing else does. This is a common flaw in perpetual motion schemes. On the other hand, achieving perfect insulation, or insulation not subject to black body radiation, is another way to attack the free energy problem. If you have done that part of the problem you don't have to worry so much about the rest. If you start with perfect insulation as a premise, it can logically follow that perpetual motion or free energy is possible, almost regardless of what your implementation scheme is. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 18:36:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08492; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:33:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:38:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Some Notes ... EV challenges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fnQRI2.0.U42.Y_jDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Ken Shouders has done work using EVs to drill holes in dielectric materiasl, ceramic plates. In one type of this use of EVs, the clusters are generated and caused to crash into the ceramic, thereby making the hile. nice neat holes have been obtained in this manner. See note in body of text.... On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 6:35 PM 12/11/0, John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Vo., > > > > See notes, please..... > > > > > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:34:59 -0900 > >From: Horace Heffner > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > > >>>In thinking about the EV proof problem, perhaps one way to achieve a fairly > >>>high level of proof is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV > >>>chain, yet have no conductive path available to the anode. > > > > > > Q: > > > > What is the requirement for a DC galvanic circuit in generating > >EVs? Why do you think this is required? > > > I said nothing about a galvanic circuit nor did I say anything was > required. I said perhaps one way to achieve a fairly high level of proof > is to produce a device that will produce an EV or EV chain, yet have no > conductive path available to the anode. The implication is that the > witness plate would be entirely dielectric. This higher level of proof is > obtained because so many of Shoulders' experiments have an alternative > explantion based on ordinary leader induced sparks/arcs which involve anode > spots and mostly neutral plasma born conductivity. The metal anode surface > may be an essential ingredient, and if so the existence of EV's at all is > placed in doubt due to the existence of alternative cnventional > explanations. > > Another point of discussion might be as to why a gaseous envoronment is > required, especially the recommended noble gas environment, like xenon. If > EV's are pure or nearly pure electron aggregates, as spelled out in the > initial patents, etc., why is a gas necessary at all? If a nucleation > theory is advanced, i.e. that EV's are formed by electron tunneling to a > neutral noble atom, then it would seem that EV formation would work well at > much lower pressures. I am not sure at what pressures you are calling high and low, by EVs can and do form at STP and down to 1/2 atm. I can write Ken and ask him the range of pressures. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 18:41:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13029; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:40:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:40:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:40:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <3a378ff8.1344103361 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yxopZ1.0.VB3.P6kDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >>First, a committee of Democrats and Republicans must first establish a firm >>set of rules regarding exceptions such as "pregnant chads." I would favor >>the liberal Texas rules, but I would accept any reasonable set of rules, >>"one corner, two corner" or what-have-you. > >Nope. El-wrongo. In order for a ballot to be valid, the voter must >properly follow the instructions that are printed on how to handle the >ballot. No "one corner, two corner," dimples, pregnancies, etc. >should be allowed. Not according to Texas and Florida law. For the sake of argument, why not go along with that for a moment, and let's look a little closer at the DP problem. >Please remember that these card ballots are not exactly like punch >(IBM/Hollerith) cards. The selections are micro-perfed, so an >experienced person wouldn't find it hard to pop some of the chads >loose during manual handling. No, not really. The cards are intended to be handled at the polls by bleary-eyed, over-worked people. >>1. Put the cards in some arbitrary order, and leave them in that order. > >In addition, each batch must be counted to be the exact, same size >(with the exception of the last batch). And this count must be >verified at every step. Not at all! That would be unworkable. I would have the program check instead. It would automatically ID, count, and compare batches. The number of cards will vary from one batch to the other, and there will be drop-outs, so three runs of one batch may have different numbers of records. Think of the runs as strings of: B - Bush, G - Gore, N - Null. A string might be: BBBGBBBNBBBNNBBBB . . . The program associate strings from BATCH 00125A with 00125B and 00125C. It might find run C starts BB..GBBBN, with the third G missing, and one fewer record than runs A & B. That would be a drop-out, where two cards went through at one time. To handle that, you insert a Null, flag that card as an exception, and shift the entire rest of the string right one position. The program also finds mismatches such as BBGGBBBN . . . (third B changed to G). This sounds complicated but it is actually simple. As I said, I have written many similar programs. Remember that all the computer has to is flag the problem and pass it on the human operator. In some cases it might flag a whole box as exceptions, for a stupid reason that a human will quickly identify and correct. The trick is to limit the program, and not try to have it do too much. >This is where I become puzzled. I, too, have worked extensively with >punched card systems (in the late 50's, 60's and into the 70's -- as >well as paper tape setups in the same era). Decks of punched cards >can be run through machines hundreds (and thousands, for program >decks) of times without error. Two reasons why those worked better: 1. They were not handled by people as much (supposedly). 2. They were punched with a sharpened tool, instead of being micro-perfed. I said above that the micro-perfs are rugged, but the regular cards with perfs are stronger, and can be run more times. Still, I would expect you can run these ballot through 10 or 20 times with confidence. >Cards that have been handled extensively by consumers/customers can be >in poor shape, and can have lots of exceptions. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE >FOR BALLOTS. Ballots are handled once, in a controlled voting >environment. Not all that controlled, but the point is well taken. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 19:42:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11292; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:40:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:40:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3A36EFBA.F3949818 groupz.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:40:42 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_2TA6.0.Lm2.0_kDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The could also have put the disputed cards, under a video camera, and put the magnified image onto a large screen monitor...and immediately everyone could have seen what was there...and agreed or disagreed....this also would have cut down on excess handling... and the possibility of cheating, by punching out unpunched holes.... My mother worked as a polling worker in Detroit for many years... and learned over that time, every way possible to mess up a vote, or a card...so I would not trust the normal poll workers in any recount.....steve Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Dean T. Miller wrote: > > >>First, a committee of Democrats and Republicans must first establish a firm > >>set of rules regarding exceptions such as "pregnant chads." I would favor > >>the liberal Texas rules, but I would accept any reasonable set of rules, > >>"one corner, two corner" or what-have-you. > > > >Nope. El-wrongo. In order for a ballot to be valid, the voter must > >properly follow the instructions that are printed on how to handle the > >ballot. No "one corner, two corner," dimples, pregnancies, etc. > >should be allowed. > > Not according to Texas and Florida law. For the sake of argument, why not > go along with that for a moment, and let's look a little closer at the DP > problem. > > >Please remember that these card ballots are not exactly like punch > >(IBM/Hollerith) cards. The selections are micro-perfed, so an > >experienced person wouldn't find it hard to pop some of the chads > >loose during manual handling. > > No, not really. The cards are intended to be handled at the polls by > bleary-eyed, over-worked people. > > >>1. Put the cards in some arbitrary order, and leave them in that order. > > > >In addition, each batch must be counted to be the exact, same size > >(with the exception of the last batch). And this count must be > >verified at every step. > > Not at all! That would be unworkable. I would have the program check > instead. It would automatically ID, count, and compare batches. The number > of cards will vary from one batch to the other, and there will be > drop-outs, so three runs of one batch may have different numbers of > records. Think of the runs as strings of: B - Bush, G - Gore, N - Null. A > string might be: BBBGBBBNBBBNNBBBB . . . The program associate strings from > BATCH 00125A with 00125B and 00125C. It might find run C starts BB..GBBBN, > with the third G missing, and one fewer record than runs A & B. That would > be a drop-out, where two cards went through at one time. To handle that, > you insert a Null, flag that card as an exception, and shift the entire > rest of the string right one position. The program also finds mismatches > such as BBGGBBBN . . . (third B changed to G). This sounds complicated but > it is actually simple. > > As I said, I have written many similar programs. Remember that all the > computer has to is flag the problem and pass it on the human operator. In > some cases it might flag a whole box as exceptions, for a stupid reason > that a human will quickly identify and correct. The trick is to limit the > program, and not try to have it do too much. > > >This is where I become puzzled. I, too, have worked extensively with > >punched card systems (in the late 50's, 60's and into the 70's -- as > >well as paper tape setups in the same era). Decks of punched cards > >can be run through machines hundreds (and thousands, for program > >decks) of times without error. > > Two reasons why those worked better: 1. They were not handled by people as > much (supposedly). 2. They were punched with a sharpened tool, instead of > being micro-perfed. I said above that the micro-perfs are rugged, but the > regular cards with perfs are stronger, and can be run more times. Still, I > would expect you can run these ballot through 10 or 20 times with confidence. > > >Cards that have been handled extensively by consumers/customers can be > >in poor shape, and can have lots of exceptions. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE > >FOR BALLOTS. Ballots are handled once, in a controlled voting > >environment. > > Not all that controlled, but the point is well taken. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 19:51:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13330; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:44:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:44:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A367DF3.FA7D37A5 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:35:15 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bearden's MEG Paper References: <4f.4a88432.2767ba80 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-cRAj.0.8G3.o2lDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > I understand Bearden removed the paper on the advice of his patent lawers. > But.... > There is a link to the paper at this site. > > http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/megv21.htm > > The link is near the bottom of the page in the section > "Interesting papers and documents about the project" Thanks, Vince, got it saved now. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 20:06:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22626; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:04:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:04:51 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: sno Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:04:49 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A36EFBA.F3949818 groupz.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"6Nn4r2.0.FX5.XLlDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 13-Dec-00, sno, wrote: >The could also have put the disputed cards, under a video camera, >and put the magnified image onto a large screen monitor...and >immediately everyone could have seen what was there...and agreed >or disagreed....this also would have cut down on excess handling... >and the possibility of cheating, by punching out unpunched holes.... >My mother worked as a polling worker in Detroit for many years... >and learned over that time, every way possible to mess up a vote, >or a card...so I would not trust the normal poll workers in any >recount.....steve Yeah, what about that bastard that was caught with a *voting machine* in his car??? This Supreme Court ruling is a glorious thing, really. Think about it. It will handcuff both sides of the isle into glorious GRID LOCK, for the next 4 years :^) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 20:55:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09328; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:52:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:52:40 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:00:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"OLrAi1.0.gH2.O2mDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:01 AM 12/12/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Radiation at the very low end of the IR spectra is unavoidable but I see >no good >reason that it couldn't be held to under 50 % of the total heat rejection >(caloric >flow), The reasons that you can not achieve to supposed insulation are that (1) inward radiation is mostly reabsorbed by opposing inner surfaces and (2) the outer surface area is larger than the inner surface area, and (3) the the pecent of radiation down the tube is only a small percentage of the total inward radiation and (4) the small percentage of heat flow radiated down the tube center mandates a temperature increase of the insulation layers to the point where external radiation (and heat flow via other means if available) achieves equilibrium or the device fails. Dewars achieve a high thermal resistance, but if you put a powered resistor in one, say 10 watts, and the only heat flow outward is through a small speck of a window in the dewar, then the dewar will heat up until it self-destructs or the heat flow reaches equilibrium by radiation or what other means are available to take heat away from the outer surface. The problem is that black body radiation always balances things out if nothing else does. This is a common flaw in perpetual motion schemes. On the other hand, achieving perfect insulation, or insulation not subject to black body radiation, is another way to attack the free energy problem. If you have done that part of the problem you don't have to worry so much about the rest. If you start with perfect insulation as a premise, it can logically follow that perpetual motion or free energy is possible, almost regardless of what your implementation scheme is. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 21:31:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20471; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:28:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:28:07 -0800 Message-ID: <20001213052805.6940.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:28:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Teller's 'Inherently safe' Triga fission reactors To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"GeSmx.0.n_4.dZmDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >General Atomics built and still builds Triga reactors. > > That's what Dyson said in the rest of the quote I posted. > > > >As you quote, the Triga's special feature is that it can safely deliver > a > >brief pulse of power safely and then it drops down by inherent design to > >low power. This is useful mainly to make a brief burst of neutrons for > >experiments. > > > >For a power producing reactor you want a controlled high level of power > >steadily. The Triga (by design) drops to low power. However, the > >pressurized water reactors, both US Navy and the much electric utility > >kinds, are designed to have a similar, but much weaker, negative > >temperature coefficient . . . > > So, a Triga design cannot be used in a power reactor? It is inherently > impossible? Dyson did not say it could be used for power. His point was > that a longer period of free innovation may have allowed better designs > to evolve. As a Triga heats up, the nuclear power decreases sharply. Therefore, you can't get much power out of it after the initial big pulse, but it's very safe. Many people agree with you, that fission power reactor technology might have been frozen too early. That said, several power reactor technologies were tried out on small scale by both the AEC and the US Navy. You might remember that the Navy actually developed two reactor technologies to power submarines, one based on pressurized light water coolant and the other on liquid sodium. Nautilus, the first nuclear submarine, used water, while Sea Wolf, the second nuclear submarine, used sodium. The water cooled reactor proved superior in service, so I have been told, and all subsequent Navy reactors used this technology. > The early history of most technologies resembles biological evolution, > with > a brief flowering of many improbable designs followed by a rapid > winnowing > out. The "winning" species or design may not be the "best" one, because > contingency and incumbency play a large role both kinds of evolution ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 23:34:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27207; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:32:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:32:16 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:22:28 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3c20aa.1381151522 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA27180 Resent-Message-ID: <"BAYWT.0.-e6._NoDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:40:49 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: >>In addition, each batch must be counted to be the exact, same size >>(with the exception of the last batch). And this count must be >>verified at every step. > >Not at all! That would be unworkable. I would have the program check >instead. Yes, of course. >>This is where I become puzzled. I, too, have worked extensively with >>punched card systems (in the late 50's, 60's and into the 70's -- as >>well as paper tape setups in the same era). Decks of punched cards >>can be run through machines hundreds (and thousands, for program >>decks) of times without error. > >Two reasons why those worked better: 1. They were not handled by people as >much (supposedly). 2. They were punched with a sharpened tool, instead of >being micro-perfed. I said above that the micro-perfs are rugged, but the >regular cards with perfs are stronger, and can be run more times. Still, I >would expect you can run these ballot through 10 or 20 times with confidence. I agree that you should be able to re-run these ballots many times. So then the question becomes -- why all the chads scattered on the tables and floors of the manual recount rooms? The first run through the counting machines (I don't know if these were standard card readers, sorters, or what) should have dislodged almost all "hanging" chads. The second run (automatically triggered recount) should have disposed of the few remaining. >>Cards that have been handled extensively by consumers/customers can be >>in poor shape, and can have lots of exceptions. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE >>FOR BALLOTS. Ballots are handled once, in a controlled voting >>environment. > >Not all that controlled, but the point is well taken. Yup. I've seen some of the videos from the counting rooms (right now I don't recall which county). One woman took a handful (several hundred) of ballot cards from one box and a handful from another box -- and proceeded to shuffle them together! Another person (maybe it was the same person) took some ballot cards and bent them in half -- not fanning them as you would to remove static electricity before putting them into a machine. They were almost creased. It looked, to me, as if someone wanted these ballots to be "well handled." (And then there are the reports, even in the media, of chads being taped back onto ballots with Scotch tape.) That's why I feel any recount -- at least in the counties under litigation -- is meaningless. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 12 23:46:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29523; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:41:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:41:42 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: "Dimpled chad" errors self-cancel Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:31:54 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3d2501.1382262717 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212174138.00c034b0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212174138.00c034b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA29498 Resent-Message-ID: <"1pXD03.0.DD7.rWoDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:43:03 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Here is something I should have realized. Everyone who does experiments >should have seen it. As Berman points out in the attached quotes, random >errors in a large data set cancel out, so obviously all "dimpled chad" >ballots should be counted. The result must reflect conscious choice, >because the mistakes will cancel out. Of course they cancel out!! That's why the Republicans have been so dead-set against manual recounts that are showing relatively (statistically) large gains for Gore. They KNOW that new votes are being manufactured -- but can't say it without very solid proof (statistical evidence abounds for this election -- but that doesn't hold water in court). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 00:11:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04065; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:08:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:08:39 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:16:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"5V7FZ3.0.R_.7woDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:46 AM 12/13/0, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >This is of course the core problem. If it does happen, then the electron >beam will absorb energy cooling the tube, and the insulation layer will work >just fine. PLease excuse my duplilcate posting in this thread. A duplicate email posted at 2:36 PM came out way before the original posted at 10:00 AM. What can cause a significant amount of the energy flow to end up in the form of IR flowing down the tube, vs radiating away from the outer surface? The emission angle has to be less than the critcal angle for the tube material, true? Simple metal coatings would not work, true? Perhaps an ordinary glass capillary might fill the requirements. Also, you need a very long pipe to get a lot of radiation in the pipe due to the small fraction eminating down the pipe, and the low power density overall. The fact the capillary waveguide might be made arbitrarily long IS interesting, if acumulative effect can be obtained. If all absorbtion in the core of the capillary can be removed, say by maintaining a vacuum (technically impossible to very difficult) an arbitrary capillary length can be obtained. Perhaps some other medium can be made transparent enough to achieve an adequate capillary length, and then the capillary coupled to a vacuum chamber for energy extraction or the electron acceleration idea abondoned in favor of a photocell type approach. Now, let's say all those problems are overcome. Isn't true, according to QM, that the size of the hole at the end of the capillary and the temperature of the capilary interior (cavity) determine the amount of radiation from the hole, independent of cavity geometry? Perhaps this paragraph is a circular argument. If the problems are overcome, QM is already contradicted. Maybe the capillary structure is the place to start. You can directly measure the lumens emitted from various configurations without bothering about accelerating electrons at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 01:01:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA15224; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:00:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:00:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:00:29 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xAMoy3.0.nj3.rgpDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 1. It is a fact that the Florida voting is a perfect tie, for all practical purposes. The margin of error is much larger than the count difference. 2. Either candidate elected by the outcome of this legal wrangling will be too weak, divide the coutry more, and probably be in physical jeopardy (like Kennedy was). So why can't the candidates cooperate and decide to call Florida a wash (every vote counts, they just all count against one another) and let the other 49 decide it? Bush could ask that even though he technically won, that the Florida legislature certify zero electors (or 25 for Gore, whatever). Gore would win and I didn't want that, but it would be better now given the circumstances. I guess this kind of outcome would require statesmanship, patriotism, and sacrifice. Something politians are not known for these days. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 01:17:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA18332; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:16:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:16:25 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:23:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Resent-Message-ID: <"WW4ew.0.LU4.fvpDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given Stefan's Law: P_e = epsilon rho A T_e^4 (emission) where Pe is rate at which heat energy is radiated from an object of area A at absolute temperature T_e (Kelvin) or the converse form: P_a = epsilon rho A T_a^4 (absorbtion) where P_a designates the energy absorbtion rate by the object when placed in an enclosure with walls at temperature T_a. The NET RADIATION is thus given by the difference: P = Pe - Pa = epsilon rho A (T_e^4 - T_a^4) (Net emission) Above epsilon is emissivity, a dimensionles indicator of absorbtivity, with 1 indicating a black body, and 0 a perfect reflector. Rho is the Stefan-Boltzman constant: rho = 5.67 x10^-8 W/(m^2 K^4) >From the above we would generally assume that the energy radiated across the capillary would be fully absorbed because T_e = T_a. Both sides of the capillary are at the same temperature. The radiation from one spot would be fully absorbed by the tube wall in only a small length of tube because it will not take many bounces to absorb it. If we assume an emissivity of 0.5, then it will take less than 32 reflections to fully absorb the radiation. If emission is at 45 deg. and the capillary ID is 1 mm then 99 percent absorbtion occurs in only .49 mm of capillary length, and less than a billionth is left in 3 cm. However, if the radiation is emitted at less than the critical angle of the refractive medium of the capillary sheath, then epsilon becomes zero with regard to absorbtion. Such radiation should be able to run the length of the capillary and emerge - I would think, at first look. Perhaps an approach would be to wrap many layers of a single continuous fiber coil around the energy using device. This would direct radiant heat energy to the device for conversion to the needed form, say electrical. The waste heat ends up radiated out towards the layers of coil. each layer of the coil captures a portion of the radiated or re-radiated energy, and each in time converts a portion of that to radiant energy emitted at less than the critical angle, and thus back to the device. Now, if only the heat energy could be fully trapped by a perfect outer insulating layer. 8^( Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 05:38:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08562; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:37:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:37:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A377D32.1BC14698 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: "Dimpled chad" errors self-cancel References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212174138.00c034b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3d2501.1382262717@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BpAPl3.0.i52.GktDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > > Hi Jed, > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:43:03 -0500, Jed Rothwell > wrote: > > >Here is something I should have realized. Everyone who does experiments > >should have seen it. As Berman points out in the attached quotes, random > >errors in a large data set cancel out, so obviously all "dimpled chad" > >ballots should be counted. The result must reflect conscious choice, > >because the mistakes will cancel out. > > Of course they cancel out!! That's why the Republicans have been so > dead-set against manual recounts that are showing relatively > (statistically) large gains for Gore. They KNOW that new votes are > being manufactured -- but can't say it without very solid proof > (statistical evidence abounds for this election -- but that doesn't > hold water in court). Ackshully, there might be a way to prove votes were manufactured: http://www.pushback.com/justice/votefraud/DimpledChadPictures.html Before the courts in Tallahassee mandated the PBC votes be shipped there, Judicial Watch reviewed many ballots finding, not only such evidence, but obvious Bush votes that had been placed and tallied in the Gore stack. "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -Josef Stalin Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 05:58:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13814; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:57:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:57:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213082307.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:56:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <3a3c20aa.1381151522 mail.midiowa.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CXuf72.0.iN3.m0uDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >I agree that you should be able to re-run these ballots many times. >So then the question becomes -- why all the chads scattered on the >tables and floors of the manual recount rooms? The first run through >the counting machines (I don't know if these were standard card >readers, sorters, or what) should have dislodged almost all "hanging" >chads. The second run (automatically triggered recount) should have >disposed of the few remaining. I think there are three reasons: 1. From my days with paper tape, I recall the chad gets everywhere, and it sticks. From static electricity perhaps? A small, flat, disk shape below a certain weight sticks well to any surface. 2. I am not sure you are right that all "hanging chad" would be dislodged on the first pass. Those machines are supposed to be gentle, and not to disturb the card surface. 3. A certain number of new holes are being made. Probably not deliberately. I doubt that a single one of those volunteers would cheat. But random holes are probably punched out. This would have no real effect on the count, since they are random. In closing arguments, as they say in court, I'd like to quote Stan Kelly-Bootle's book "The Devil's DP Dictionary" (McGraw-Hill, 1981). Warning: If you find this book funny, or even comprehensible, you must admit to being of a certain age and disposition, shall we say. card n. Also called punch card, punched card, tab card, Hollerith card. [Origin: form earlier, more predictable games of chance and necromantic divination.] A 7 3/8- inch X 3 1/4 -inch looseleaf scratchpad system designed to fit normal shirt pockets (other sizes available for the abnormal), but sometimes underused as an 80 X 12 analog-digital matrix. "If T. J. Watson, Sr., had played his cards right, he could have made himself a name in computing." - M. Thumps. punch n. & v. trans. 1. n A device used to reduce the weight of a card or paper tape in order to minimize postal charges. The CHADIC by-products have proved to be a useful and persistent confetti. 2. v. trans. To expose (a card or paper tape) to the whims of a perforator or perforatrice. . . . and I can't resist adding this unrelated one: package switching n. 1. The conversion, following threats of litigation, from one set of stolen programs to another. 2. A cryptogrammic technique which, rather than recoding characters in a message, achieves mystification by directing arbitrary partitions of the message to random locations. See also EPSS - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 06:59:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00792; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:58:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:58:42 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Jed Rothwell Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:55:10 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213082307.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"NYuf71.0.IC.YwuDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Drop it Jed, goddamit, get it over! Get over it! Now, let's bring on the fumigation workers and clear out the place. On 13-Dec-00, Jed Rothwell, wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: >>I agree that you should be able to re-run these ballots many times. >>So then the question becomes -- why all the chads scattered on the >>tables and floors of the manual recount rooms? The first run through >>the counting machines (I don't know if these were standard card >>readers, sorters, or what) should have dislodged almost all "hanging" >>chads. The second run (automatically triggered recount) should have >>disposed of the few remaining. >I think there are three reasons: >1. From my days with paper tape, I recall the chad gets everywhere, and it >sticks. From static electricity perhaps? A small, flat, disk shape below a >certain weight sticks well to any surface. >2. I am not sure you are right that all "hanging chad" would be dislodged >on the first pass. Those machines are supposed to be gentle, and not to >disturb the card surface. >3. A certain number of new holes are being made. Probably not deliberately. >I doubt that a single one of those volunteers would cheat. But random holes >are probably punched out. This would have no real effect on the count, >since they are random. >In closing arguments, as they say in court, I'd like to quote Stan >Kelly-Bootle's book "The Devil's DP Dictionary" (McGraw-Hill, 1981). >Warning: If you find this book funny, or even comprehensible, you must >admit to being of a certain age and disposition, shall we say. >card n. Also called punch card, punched card, tab card, Hollerith card. >[Origin: form earlier, more predictable games of chance and necromantic >divination.] A 7 3/8- inch X 3 1/4 -inch looseleaf scratchpad system >designed to fit normal shirt pockets (other sizes available for the >abnormal), but sometimes underused as an 80 X 12 analog-digital matrix. "If >T. J. Watson, Sr., had played his cards right, he could have made himself a >name in computing." - M. Thumps. >punch n. & v. trans. 1. n A device used to reduce the weight of a card or >paper tape in order to minimize postal charges. The CHADIC by-products have >proved to be a useful and persistent confetti. 2. v. trans. To expose (a >card or paper tape) to the whims of a perforator or perforatrice. >. . . and I can't resist adding this unrelated one: >package switching n. 1. The conversion, following threats of litigation, >from one set of stolen programs to another. 2. A cryptogrammic technique >which, rather than recoding characters in a message, achieves mystification >by directing arbitrary partitions of the message to random locations. See >also EPSS >- Jed -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 07:24:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10598; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:22:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:22:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3A378652.38EFF3EE ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:23:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UDSjl.0.Wb2.oGvDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > 1. It is a fact that the Florida voting is a perfect tie, for all > practical purposes. The margin of error is much larger than the count > difference. > > 2. Either candidate elected by the outcome of this legal wrangling > will be too weak, divide the coutry more, and probably be in physical > jeopardy (like Kennedy was). > > So why can't the candidates cooperate and decide to call Florida a > wash (every vote counts, they just all count against one another) and > let the other 49 decide it? Bush could ask that even though he > technically won, that the Florida legislature certify zero electors > (or 25 for Gore, whatever). Gore would win and I didn't want that, > but it would be better now given the circumstances. > > I guess this kind of outcome would require statesmanship, patriotism, > and sacrifice. Something politians are not known for these days. You are too reasonable. This is the way a fair person would operate, but we know that politicians are neither fair nor reasonable. They want to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. I'm afraid things will get far worse before they get better. Many people who voted for Bush will sorely regret their decision. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 07:36:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15934; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:36:17 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213103549.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:36:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC: Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_GJP8.0.ru3.nTvDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood: a neurodevelopmental perspective on A.A. Milne Sarah E. Shea, Kevin Gordon, Ann Hawkins, Janet Kawchuk, Donna Smith CMAJ 2000;163(12):1557-9 http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-163/issue-12/1557.htm Abstract: Somewhere at the top of the Hundred Acre Wood a little boy and his bear play. On the surface it is an innocent world, but on closer examination by our group of experts we find a forest where neurodevelopmental and psychosocial problems go unrecognized and untreated. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:31:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00606; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:27:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:27:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:27:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3A378652.38EFF3EE ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pt21O2.0.K9.XDwDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > They want >to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as >it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. Chinese authors in 1000 BC bemoaned the lost golden age of yore. Every generation seems to feel that previous generations were more moral, stronger, more fit . . . If this trend is real, how has humanity survived? By now there should only be a half dozen gibbering degenerates, wandering through the ruins of civilization. A popular book supports this thesis. Quoting a review on Amazon.com: "From Dawn to Decadence is what you should have learned with your liberal arts education. It is a brilliant, entertaining, thought-provoking history of the last 500 years in the West. At times I felt like I should put the book down and bow down saying 'We are not worthy.'" I think that captures the gist of it, and the reason people feel this way. It might be Freudian. You may remember your father as a powerful, towering, fearless man. People of my generation, whose fathers went off to fight WWII, are likely to do this. You think to yourself, "we are not worthy. We could never have done that!" Actually, we could, and would, if we had to. Hundreds of generations overcame such challenges. There is no reason to think this particular generation has mutated and lost the ability. > I'm >afraid things will get far worse before they get better. Why? How do you know we have not already hit the nadir? Certainly I expect Congress will address the proximate cause of the present mini-crisis (or major brouhaha), which is obsolete and inaccurate voting machinery. They might even get rid of the Electoral College. Things might suddenly and mysteriously improve. Perhaps not, because trends sometimes continue until a severe crisis occurs. I do not expect to see reforms in mainstream science unless it becomes generally known that cold fusion is real. A person in Ed's position, trying to do CF, sees that mainstream science is in deep trouble. Perhaps this gives him the impression that the world at large is degenerating. A moribund, useless institution might suddenly spring back to life. Novell was on the verge of bankruptcy when it came up with a smash hit network. A health department which has rubber stamped abuses for years might suddenly begin crusading for public health. Here is an odd but topical example. It is unlikely, but suppose three Republican members of the Electoral College decide to vote against Bush, as "faithless electors." That institution, which has been meaningless since 1800, would suddenly play an important role for the first and last time in U.S. history. > Many people >who voted for Bush will sorely regret their decision. Oh, I doubt that. And I doubt Gore would have been an outstanding president. I expect the only people who will regret their actions are some of the Supreme Court justices. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 08:58:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09036; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:55:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:55:08 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:42:48 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A37A708.20A22808 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"xD1DS2.0.6D2.hdwDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Horace, Unless I'm missing something, everything which you have said is perfectly correct in isolation, but can we revisit the original premise of this exercise, it is this: In a linac, an electron beam can be accelerated by lateral microwave energy, which is of a very long wavelength compared to IR and is therefore of much lower photon energy, i.e. "quality." My initial suggestion was that this same mechanism could perhaps also be applicable on a much smaller geometric scale - and that an ebeam would serve (as a heat sink) to remove all the IR and cool the tube. Therefore no, zero, IR radiation would escape the tube down its axis - nor even would any IR would cross the interior of the tube. After your first suggestion, the design was then it was modified so that IR which would be expected to escape the tube's outer surface would be reflected back as much as possible. My question about the feasibility of the original idea was this: what physical principal would keep the bulk of infared radiation from being absorbed in a stepwise fashion, as happens in a Linac. From the nature of your remarks, which are all correct in themselves, it seem that you are still addressing the overall issue as if there were NO interior cooling by the ebeam? If you ignore the role of the mechanism that would operate to cool the tube, then of course your remarks are correct.. Therefore, I must assume that you believe that the tube wouldn't be cooled by this mechanism. Is that correct - or are you saying that Stefan's law applies to the ebeam as well? If so why would an electron beam be able to absorb energy efficiently at every long wavelength (Linac) but in another similar design (on a reduced scale) the ebeam would reject photons that were hundreds of times more energetic. Shouldn't the absorption be greater the closer photons come to approaching the deBroglie wavelength? Thanks in advance, Jones PS- I have a hunch that you have recently been exploring the related idea of OU energy being derived from an ability to perfectly insulate against all radiation leaks - and that you are focusing on only that element rather than the totality of the device, which admittedly, I don't necessarily believe is feasible - as it is too obvious to have escaped attention for one thing. I just wanted to know why it wouldn't work - as it's one of those crazy ideas that you can't shake until you get the answer, hopefully, by learning something in the process. Horace Heffner wrote: > Given Stefan's Law: > > P_e = epsilon rho A T_e^4 (emission) > > where Pe is rate at which heat energy is radiated from an object of area A > at absolute temperature T_e (Kelvin) or the converse form: > > P_a = epsilon rho A T_a^4 (absorbtion) > > where P_a designates the energy absorbtion rate by the object when placed > in an enclosure with walls at temperature T_a. The NET RADIATION is thus > given by the difference: > > P = Pe - Pa = epsilon rho A (T_e^4 - T_a^4) (Net emission) > > Above epsilon is emissivity, a dimensionles indicator of absorbtivity, with > 1 indicating a black body, and 0 a perfect reflector. Rho is the > Stefan-Boltzman constant: > > rho = 5.67 x10^-8 W/(m^2 K^4) > > >From the above we would generally assume that the energy radiated across > the capillary would be fully absorbed because T_e = T_a. Both sides of the > capillary are at the same temperature. The radiation from one spot would > be fully absorbed by the tube wall in only a small length of tube because > it will not take many bounces to absorb it. If we assume an emissivity of > 0.5, then it will take less than 32 reflections to fully absorb the > radiation. If emission is at 45 deg. and the capillary ID is 1 mm then 99 > percent absorbtion occurs in only .49 mm of capillary length, and less than > a billionth is left in 3 cm. However, if the radiation is emitted at less > than the critical angle of the refractive medium of the capillary sheath, > then epsilon becomes zero with regard to absorbtion. Such radiation should > be able to run the length of the capillary and emerge - I would think, at > first look. > > Perhaps an approach would be to wrap many layers of a single continuous > fiber coil around the energy using device. This would direct radiant heat > energy to the device for conversion to the needed form, say electrical. > The waste heat ends up radiated out towards the layers of coil. each > layer of the coil captures a portion of the radiated or re-radiated energy, > and each in time converts a portion of that to radiant energy emitted at > less than the critical angle, and thus back to the device. > > Now, if only the heat energy could be fully trapped by a perfect outer > insulating layer. 8^( > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 09:20:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16843; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:18:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:18:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:13:39 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: New MEG analyst To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A37AE43.E61CD6C0 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"46rHJ1.0.574.MzwDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those on Vortex who don't get the JLN postings: Recently a post appeared from a gowatson hotmail.com who signed his name: greg Actually the comments made by greg about MEG [mis]measurements were quite perceptive. If we get both Bearden and Watson (assuming it is "our" greg watson) on the same team, you can be sure... Oops, I don't want to go down that road again! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 09:36:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22333; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:33:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:33:05 -0800 Message-ID: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: A note I got from somewhere Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:44:24 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0133_01C06502.6C63E580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"D6QHo2.0.rS5.FBxDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C06502.6C63E580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Below is a little note I got from someone by way of someone else.... = and I thought you might find it interesting. MJ P.S. All water has deutrium in it and it doesn't electrolyze so you end = up with a concentration of it after a while when operating an = electrolysis cell. One more little "bonus" from my idea. > Here is a little treatise on Hydrogen you might pass on the Mr. = Johnston: > > In every gallon of sea water there is about 1/8 gram of Deuterium. You = can extract it with a DuPont membrane > column for a cost of about 4 cents. If you burn it in any kind of = break even hot fusion reactor such as the > Tokamak plasma reactor at Harvard it is equivalent to about 300 = gallons of gasoline. Now,--- if you make a > quick calculation with the volume of the earth's oceans you come up = with an astounding thing, i.e. about > 200,000,000,000 Kilowatt Years of electric energy at our present = energy rate! Indeed sunlight will put the > Deuterium back in the sea water for you in about a week! I mean like = tell OPEC to kiss it! > http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C06502.6C63E580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
   Below is a little note I = got from=20 someone by way of someone else.... and I thought you might find it=20 interesting.
MJ
P.S. All water has deutrium in it and = it doesn't=20 electrolyze so you end up with a concentration of it after a while when=20 operating an electrolysis cell. One more little "bonus" from my=20 idea.
 
> Here is a little treatise on Hydrogen you might pass on the = Mr.=20 Johnston:
>
> In every gallon of sea water there is about = 1/8 gram=20 of Deuterium. You can
extract it with a DuPont membrane
> = column for a=20 cost of about 4 cents. If you burn it in any kind of break
even hot = fusion=20 reactor such as the
> Tokamak plasma reactor at Harvard it is = equivalent=20 to about 300 gallons of
gasoline. Now,--- if you make a
> quick = calculation with the volume of the earth's oceans you come up with
an = astounding thing, i.e. about
> 200,000,000,000 Kilowatt Years of = electric=20 energy at our present energy
rate! Indeed sunlight will put = the
>=20 Deuterium back in the sea water for you in about a week! I mean like=20 tell
OPEC to kiss it!
>
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_0133_01C06502.6C63E580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 09:54:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28791; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:52:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212174138.00c034b0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:51:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: "Dimpled chad" errors self-cancel Resent-Message-ID: <"OJk_J3.0.i17.GTxDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here is something I should have realized. Everyone who does experiments >should have seen it. As Berman points out in the attached quotes, random >errors in a large data set cancel out, so obviously all "dimpled chad" >ballots should be counted. The result must reflect conscious choice, >because the mistakes will cancel out. ***{Bzzzzzzt! Wrong. (See below.) --MJ}*** > >- Jed > > > From Slate magazine Slate.msn.com > >Simple Math and Dimpled Chad >By Paul Berman >Posted Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2000, at 1:41 p.m. PT > >"Dimpled chad will be puzzling moral philosophers for centuries," asserts >Slate's editor, reflecting the widespread view that they raise a difficult >question. But on the question of how or whether to count a dimpled chad as >a valid vote--there ought to be no puzzlement at all. In obeyance to the >laws of logic and probability, dimpled chad should ALWAYS be counted as >valid votes, together with any other mark on a ballot. Here is why: > >A mark on a ballot might indicate an intended vote. Or it might indicate >nothing at all and be the result of an accident--for instance, an >accidental bruise made by a stylus. There is no other possibility. It must >be one or the other. But accidental marks, being accidental, will >distribute themselves around a ballot randomly. Al Gore will receive a >certain number of accident marks, but so will Bush, Nader, Buchanan, David >McReynolds of the Socialist Party, and all the other candidates, unto the >most minor. And each of those candidates, major and minor, will receive >pretty much the same number of accidental marks. > >A candidate who receives more marks than some other candidate can have done >so only through the active choice of the voters. ***{Incorrect. A candidate who receives more marks than some other candidate can have done so only through the bias of the vote counters. The reason: *All* dimpled chads are random marks, because it is physically impossible to produce a dimpled chad using a Votomatic machine, as has been demonstrated by the inventor of the machine, who has been sending free machines, styluses, and blank ballots to journalists all over the country, accompanied by an adamant statement *defying* them to produce a dimpled chad using his machine. Thus the fact that Gore was in the process of picking up votes while the hand recount was going on is *smoking gun proof* of what was obvious already to reasoning observers: that the public employees who count votes, being disproportionately democrats who support big government, will interpret random marks in accordance with their biases. --Mitchell Jones}*** Thus, if someone does >eventually tally up the "undervote" ballots in Florida, and if, say, Gore >comes in first, with Bush second, followed by Nader, Buchanan, McReynolds, >and so on through the list of candidates, there can be only one possible >explanation, logically speaking. The explanation must be that voters chose >to vote in that fashion. May I point out an obvious conclusion? The United >States and its Supreme Court are right now bollixed up over a simple >logical error. Florida law instructs the ballot counters to determine the >intent of the voters. Nothing could be easier or simpler to do. . . . The >ballot counters merely have to tally up all the marks on the ballots and >not worry about the intentions of the voters. The unintended marks will >cancel each other out, and the intended marks will register differently for >each candidate. In short, a hand count of all marks will show the voter's >intentions willy-nilly. . . . ***{The assumption of the above "logic" is that those who hand-count the votes will be unbiased. However, that is false, and the proof of its falsehood lies in the fact that Gore was gaining votes rapidly while the hand-count was going on. Since the distribution of dimpled chads is random, non-randomness in the interpretation of dimpled chads is a measure of the bias of the vote counters, nothing more, and nothing less. Thus the hand-count was merely a way for Gore to steal the election, and the Supreme Court decision has prevented him from doing that, at least insofar as hand-counting is concerned. He will, however, have one last shot: all he needs to do is dig up enough dirt so that, via blackmail, he can change three votes in the electoral college, and he can steal it that way. Since blackmail is the stock in trade of the Clinton-Gore administration, I will not believe that Bush will be the President until he actually takes office. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:03:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31660; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:01:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:01:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3A37B98E.6938F8AA groupz.net> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:01:50 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Question on JLN MEG...conditioned resistor.. References: <7b.c41d62c.2746f179 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pKvV6.0.ck7.NcxDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JLN has posted the procedure for "conditioning" the output resistor, used in the MEG....causing it to become a "non linear" resistor....can anyone explain to me what is going on here...and how the carbon resistor is changed..???? http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/negres.htm Thank you....steve opelc From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 10:35:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12031; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:32:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:32:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:32:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Resent-Message-ID: <"vR_XX1.0.rx2.A3yDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Ed, your "reply-to" header is screwed up again. When you post to vortex, your "reply-to" line should be blank. If it isn't, then replies will go directly to you, rather than to vortex. --MJ}*** >Rick Monteverde wrote: > >> 1. It is a fact that the Florida voting is a perfect tie, for all >> practical purposes. The margin of error is much larger than the count >> difference. >> >> 2. Either candidate elected by the outcome of this legal wrangling >> will be too weak, divide the coutry more, and probably be in physical >> jeopardy (like Kennedy was). >> >> So why can't the candidates cooperate and decide to call Florida a >> wash (every vote counts, they just all count against one another) and >> let the other 49 decide it? Bush could ask that even though he >> technically won, that the Florida legislature certify zero electors >> (or 25 for Gore, whatever). Gore would win and I didn't want that, >> but it would be better now given the circumstances. >> >> I guess this kind of outcome would require statesmanship, patriotism, >> and sacrifice. Something politians are not known for these days. > >You are too reasonable. This is the way a fair person would operate, >but we know that politicians are neither fair nor reasonable. They want >to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as >it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. I'm >afraid things will get far worse before they get better. Many people >who voted for Bush will sorely regret their decision. ***{Whoever takes office this time around faces a likely economic disaster, with the result that many who voted for him are destined to regret their decisions. I say that because I find it to be virtually incomprehensible that Allan Greenspan can pull enough rabbits out of his hat to keep this stock market together for another four years. Thus the best of the possible scenarios, as I see it, would be for the long thwarted crash to come between now and the time Clinton leaves office, so that the parties primarily responsible for the stock market bubble--Clinton and Gore--will take the blame, and for George Bush to then take office. Under that scenario, we might possibly avoid the creation of a smothering blanket of controls that would crush the economy like it did when Roosevelt took office, and would prevent economic recovery for a decade or more--and perhaps much, much more. Unfortunately, while the Clinton-Gore administration deserves primary responsibility for the economic hard times that are certainly not very far ahead, the Republicans in Congress are complicit in what has happened, and thus also deserve a large share of the guilt, and any Republican president is likely to be precisely the sort of spineless compromiser that the Congressional Republicans have been, and thus will probably sign pretty much the same sorts of "crisis" bills that a Democrat president would have signed. Bottom line: when the economic chickens come home to roost, whoever is in office is likely to do exactly the wrong thing: strangle the economy further, rather than free it up, and the likely denouement will be to turn this nation into a third-world hell-hole ruled by a tinpot fascist dictator. That's the way I see it, at any rate. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Ed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 11:23:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25152; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:16:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:16:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3A37CAD7.9C33399C groupz.net> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:15:35 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UPB_m3.0.w86.1iyDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch....I absolutely agree with your analysis of the economy....I also have my fingers crossed... steve Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Ed, your "reply-to" header is screwed up again. When you post to > vortex, your "reply-to" line should be blank. If it isn't, then replies > will go directly to you, rather than to vortex. --MJ}*** > > >Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > >> 1. It is a fact that the Florida voting is a perfect tie, for all > >> practical purposes. The margin of error is much larger than the count > >> difference. > >> > >> 2. Either candidate elected by the outcome of this legal wrangling > >> will be too weak, divide the coutry more, and probably be in physical > >> jeopardy (like Kennedy was). > >> > >> So why can't the candidates cooperate and decide to call Florida a > >> wash (every vote counts, they just all count against one another) and > >> let the other 49 decide it? Bush could ask that even though he > >> technically won, that the Florida legislature certify zero electors > >> (or 25 for Gore, whatever). Gore would win and I didn't want that, > >> but it would be better now given the circumstances. > >> > >> I guess this kind of outcome would require statesmanship, patriotism, > >> and sacrifice. Something politians are not known for these days. > > > >You are too reasonable. This is the way a fair person would operate, > >but we know that politicians are neither fair nor reasonable. They want > >to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as > >it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. I'm > >afraid things will get far worse before they get better. Many people > >who voted for Bush will sorely regret their decision. > > ***{Whoever takes office this time around faces a likely economic disaster, > with the result that many who voted for him are destined to regret their > decisions. I say that because I find it to be virtually incomprehensible > that Allan Greenspan can pull enough rabbits out of his hat to keep this > stock market together for another four years. Thus the best of the possible > scenarios, as I see it, would be for the long thwarted crash to come > between now and the time Clinton leaves office, so that the parties > primarily responsible for the stock market bubble--Clinton and Gore--will > take the blame, and for George Bush to then take office. Under that > scenario, we might possibly avoid the creation of a smothering blanket of > controls that would crush the economy like it did when Roosevelt took > office, and would prevent economic recovery for a decade or more--and > perhaps much, much more. > > Unfortunately, while the Clinton-Gore administration deserves primary > responsibility for the economic hard times that are certainly not very far > ahead, the Republicans in Congress are complicit in what has happened, and > thus also deserve a large share of the guilt, and any Republican president > is likely to be precisely the sort of spineless compromiser that the > Congressional Republicans have been, and thus will probably sign pretty > much the same sorts of "crisis" bills that a Democrat president would have > signed. > > Bottom line: when the economic chickens come home to roost, whoever is in > office is likely to do exactly the wrong thing: strangle the economy > further, rather than free it up, and the likely denouement will be to turn > this nation into a third-world hell-hole ruled by a tinpot fascist dictator. > > That's the way I see it, at any rate. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Ed > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:27:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13030; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:25:33 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:13:34 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Continental Crust Theory To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A37CA5E.F7D4522B pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"FsW3X2.0.WB3.zizDw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I am posting this solely for the benefit of those on vortex who were interested in it some ago and may have missed it today on the Science wire. However... Pleeeese ... before overloading Bill B's bandwidth once again, remember that the subject was pretty well beaten into a "crust" back then. Hey, I just now felt a few tremors (this message is coming to you from the San Francisco bay area!) "Earth's Continental Land Masses Created In Short, Fast Bursts; Findings Challenge Multi-Million Year Continental Crust Theory" for the story: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/12/001212070419.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:54:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20318; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:52:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:52:08 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213154617.00c3fec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:49:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <3a378ff8.1344103361 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"St-Cu3.0.Ez4.t5-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >I see you've fallen for that media hype. That law was signed by the >former Texas governor, Ann Richards (Democrat). Not according to formal testimony before the Florida and U.S. Supreme Courts. In televised proceedings, the Democratic Party lawyers claimed it was Bush, and the Republicans did not object or attempt to rebut, so it must be true. I see YOU have fallen for someone's hype. I realize this is off topic, and I do not want to inflame political passions, but I do think that close attention should be paid to authoritative statements from primary sources. Half the problem with cold fusion is that CF scientists say one thing, and the opposition misunderstands or distorts what they say. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 12:56:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20826; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:54:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:54:10 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question on JLN MEG...conditioned resistor.. Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:53:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <91of3tgncankmi1c5ngcc27jfknoo1gp5n 4ax.com> References: <7b.c41d62c.2746f179 aol.com> <3A37B98E.6938F8AA@groupz.net> In-Reply-To: <3A37B98E.6938F8AA groupz.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA20774 Resent-Message-ID: <"EGO773.0.F55.n7-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to sno's message of Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:01:50 -0500: >JLN has posted the procedure for "conditioning" the >output resistor, used in the MEG....causing it to become a >"non linear" resistor....can anyone explain to me what >is going on here...and how the carbon resistor is >changed..???? > >http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/negres.htm > >Thank you....steve opelc Funny you should ask that...just this morning I was reading chapter one of Gerry Vassilatos' book "Secrets of Cold War Technology". He says that Tesla used high voltage DC pulses generated by a magnetically quenched spark gap to "separate the aether from the charges", and create an "aether current". This looks very similar to what JLN is doing, though a more conventional explanation would be that he is just frying the resistor ;). Still, I would find it hard to explain how a fried resistor could end up being voltage dependant....which leads me to wonder if anyone has tried true voltage dependant resistors as manufactured? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:00:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21566; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:56:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:56:21 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> In-Reply-To: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA21532 Resent-Message-ID: <"MPLCF1.0.sG5.OA-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Johnston's message of Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:44:24 -0500: [snip] >rate! Indeed sunlight will put the >> Deuterium back in the sea water for you in about a week! I mean like tell >OPEC to kiss it! [snip] That's what hot fusion scientists have been trying to do for the last 50 years. BTW perhaps you can enquire as to how sunlight is supposed to "put it back"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:05:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22954; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:01:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:01:20 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213155319.00be0008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:01:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <3A37CAD7.9C33399C groupz.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"j1lfV2.0.ac5.VE-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones bleats: > > Bottom line: when the economic chickens come home to roost, whoever is in > > office is likely to do exactly the wrong thing: strangle the economy > > further, rather than free it up, and the likely denouement will be to turn > > this nation into a third-world hell-hole ruled by a tinpot fascist > dictator. Will this happen before or after the Y2K disaster finally hits? What about your previous prediction, that the Administration would stuff thousands of fake absentee votes in Florida? The only event remotely like that was in one county where Republicans filled in incomplete forms, in a technical violation of the rules. If this dreadful prediction does not come true, the sky does not fall, and we manage to survive the next four years intact, will you learn to stop making e predictions of cataclysmic trouble? I think you enjoy it too much to stop. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:42:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08888; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:40:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:40:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:26:06 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Question on JLN MEG...conditioned resistor.. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A37E96E.22417785 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <7b.c41d62c.2746f179 aol.com> <3A37B98E.6938F8AA@groupz.net> <91of3tgncankmi1c5ngcc27jfknoo1gp5n 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"KoQwm.0.oA2.ro-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > ...Still, I would find it hard to explain how a fried resistor could end up > being voltage dependant....which leads me to wonder if anyone has tried true > voltage dependant resistors as manufactured? Hello, Not to mention the most important logical issue in all this nonlinear business, which is, if I may try to express it in overly simplified english (or perhaps to your ears, Robin, confused yank-speak): A nonlinear load refers to how one might get from point A to point B, point B being that point where the COP is reputedly = 5 or whatever. At that point, after some short delay, all the parameters of your device will become relatively static and it shouldn't make a rat's ass of difference what the transit characteristics are of the load that got you there. If you have any linear load in parallel to to the nonlinear load that helped you get to point B, separated by several very fast relays, and that load was identical (to the then-static resistance of your nonlinear load at point B), then why couldn't you switch from the nonlinear load to the other load (assuming both were equally nonreactive)? Please excuse my ignorance if I am overlooking the obvious. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 13:44:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09262; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:41:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:41:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3A37EEA7.CE51C60C bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:48:23 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001213154617.00c3fec0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eeXWF.0.ZG2.Bq-Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Dean T. Miller wrote: > > >I see you've fallen for that media hype. That law was signed by the > >former Texas governor, Ann Richards (Democrat). > > Not according to formal testimony before the Florida and U.S. Supreme > Courts. In televised proceedings, the Democratic Party lawyers claimed it > was Bush, and the Republicans did not object or attempt to rebut, so it > must be true. > > I see YOU have fallen for someone's hype. I realize this is off topic, and > I do not want to inflame political passions, but I do think that close > attention should be paid to authoritative statements from primary sources. > Half the problem with cold fusion is that CF scientists say one thing, and > the opposition misunderstands or distorts what they say. You're both right. The original bill was signed by Richards and a revision to the bill was signed by Dubya. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:27:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24586; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:25:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:25:18 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:03:56 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A37F24C.7E074531 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> Resent-Message-ID: <"sAETM1.0.306.DT_Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > BTW perhaps you can enquire as to how sunlight is supposed to "put it > back"? Three potential ways come to mind: 1) The sun contains trillions of tons of D. Some tiny percentage of it must escape along with the intense radiation. What is tiny for the sun is pretty impressive here. 2) Cosmic radiation creating both the accelerating potential and also the muons to catalyze h+h > D in upper atmosphere, particularly in the van Allen belts. 3) primordial D that is still "out there" being gradually sucked in by gravity (or pushed in by gravity, if you are so inclined) Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:35:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27354; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:33:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:33:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:28:21 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213161833.02000308 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"gCMIE1.0.8h6.Va_Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:22 AM 12/12/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: >This is very interesting and apparently assumes unconventional physics. >As far as I understand it, one of Maxwells equations (Gauss' eqn) says >that E can have no divergence (and therefore no variation in phi) without >local charge density variations producing it. It's all from standard Maxwell eqns + the definition of the potentials. Variations in phi are possible without any E at all. This follows from the definitions of phi (the scalar potential) and A (the vector potential) E = - DEL(phi) - A/@t B = DEL X A The first eqn, with E = 0 says we can have a situation in which: DEL (phi) = - A/@t And that's how they are related in the proposed A-phi wave. The A in the A-phi wave also has no curl (it always points in the direction of propagation) so there's no B either. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 14:56:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00899; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:53:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Question on JLN MEG...conditioned resistor.. Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:55:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A37E96E.22417785 pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"KSXne3.0.zD.pt_Dw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yup, here's the missing point JB. The resistance is a non-linear function of voltage, so the dynamic resistance is different over the course of the cycle. Can't just sub in some standard value as you suggested. This is referred to as a negative resistance characteristic, and is not that uncommon. In answer to Robins question, yes, it has been tried, and reported on either here or on freenrg-l. Results, as I understood from the post, were similar to JLN. It's a mystery to me why he doesn't use an off-the-shelf component. You might mention it to him, but I don't know if it would have any impact. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 4:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question on JLN MEG...conditioned resistor.. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > ...Still, I would find it hard to explain how a fried resistor could end up > being voltage dependant....which leads me to wonder if anyone has tried true > voltage dependant resistors as manufactured? Hello, Not to mention the most important logical issue in all this nonlinear business, which is, if I may try to express it in overly simplified english (or perhaps to your ears, Robin, confused yank-speak): A nonlinear load refers to how one might get from point A to point B, point B being that point where the COP is reputedly = 5 or whatever. At that point, after some short delay, all the parameters of your device will become relatively static and it shouldn't make a rat's ass of difference what the transit characteristics are of the load that got you there. If you have any linear load in parallel to to the nonlinear load that helped you get to point B, separated by several very fast relays, and that load was identical (to the then-static resistance of your nonlinear load at point B), then why couldn't you switch from the nonlinear load to the other load (assuming both were equally nonreactive)? Please excuse my ignorance if I am overlooking the obvious. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 16:59:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01390; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:57:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:57:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3A380CE8.7553217B ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:57:27 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LKuME.0.dL.fh1Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > They want > >to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as > >it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. > > I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a > handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. Chinese > authors in 1000 BC bemoaned the lost golden age of yore. Every generation > seems to feel that previous generations were more moral, stronger, more fit > . . . If this trend is real, how has humanity survived? By now there should > only be a half dozen gibbering degenerates, wandering through the ruins of > civilization. A popular book supports this thesis. Quoting a review on > Amazon.com: Values in society run in cycles and no absolutes exist. Times occur when honesty is valued. During other times, an honest man is hard to find. We are in a down cycle where news is packaged as entertainment, education strives to move student through the system as fast as possible, and science rejects any new idea. These situations did not always exist and the present decay will not extend forever. Nevertheless, decay is present in our society and this will result in bad decisions, just as decay in Germany in 1930 produced Hitler. I do not expect to see such an extreme here, but anything is possible when ignorant people get desperate. How would you expect people having no savings will behave when they lose their jobs and their debts cause them to lose their homes and cars? Meanwhile, they have learned not to respect the government and have no trust in being helped. > > > "From Dawn to Decadence is what you should have learned with your liberal > arts education. It is a brilliant, entertaining, thought-provoking history > of the last 500 years in the West. At times I felt like I should put the > book down and bow down saying 'We are not worthy.'" > > I think that captures the gist of it, and the reason people feel this way. > It might be Freudian. You may remember your father as a powerful, towering, > fearless man. People of my generation, whose fathers went off to fight > WWII, are likely to do this. You think to yourself, "we are not worthy. We > could never have done that!" Actually, we could, and would, if we had to. > Hundreds of generations overcame such challenges. There is no reason to > think this particular generation has mutated and lost the ability. Many people are not affected by the decay, except as observers. On the other hand, one has to ask why so many homeless exist today or why must two people in a family work when one was sufficient 20 years ago? One has to ask why young students are killing their school mates with guns if nothing has changed in society? Many more examples can found. I suggest a person needs to evaluate the trends over a generation to see what is happening now. > > > > I'm > >afraid things will get far worse before they get better. > > Why? How do you know we have not already hit the nadir? Certainly I expect > Congress will address the proximate cause of the present mini-crisis (or > major brouhaha), which is obsolete and inaccurate voting machinery. They > might even get rid of the Electoral College. Things might suddenly and > mysteriously improve. Perhaps not, because trends sometimes continue until > a severe crisis occurs. I do not expect to see reforms in mainstream > science unless it becomes generally known that cold fusion is real. Let's hope this is true, but generally things change only when the present situation is damaging to the power structure and they can see, or are forced to see, a different path. Right now, the Electoral College is an advantage to aspiring presidents from the two main parties, only third parties are hurt. > > > A person in Ed's position, trying to do CF, sees that mainstream science is > in deep trouble. Perhaps this gives him the impression that the world at > large is degenerating. The situation in CF does not help my mood, but many other examples are visible everyday on TV and the poor press coverage is apparent to anyone who reads the papers. Just asking a normal teenager about anything beyond his immediate reality is enough to makes a person wonder how the human race ever got this far. > > > A moribund, useless institution might suddenly spring back to life. Novell > was on the verge of bankruptcy when it came up with a smash hit network. A > health department which has rubber stamped abuses for years might suddenly > begin crusading for public health. Here is an odd but topical example. It > is unlikely, but suppose three Republican members of the Electoral College > decide to vote against Bush, as "faithless electors." That institution, > which has been meaningless since 1800, would suddenly play an important > role for the first and last time in U.S. history. Unfortunately, this would lead to chaos as Jones has noted. Accusations of blackmail would be raised and these would be very hard to prove wrong. > > > > Many people > >who voted for Bush will sorely regret their decision. > > Oh, I doubt that. And I doubt Gore would have been an outstanding > president. I expect the only people who will regret their actions are some > of the Supreme Court justices. All ready, this seems to be the case. > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 18:07:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20747; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:06:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:05:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> <3A37F24C.7E074531@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3A37F24C.7E074531 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA20720 Resent-Message-ID: <"ILZEA1.0.545.bi2Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:03:56 -0800: [snip] >Three potential ways come to mind: > >1) The sun contains trillions of tons of D. Some tiny percentage of it must >escape along with the intense radiation. What is tiny for the sun is pretty >impressive here. Good point. I was thinking in terms of sunlight, not solar wind. > >2) Cosmic radiation creating both the accelerating potential and also the muons >to catalyze h+h > D in upper atmosphere, particularly in the van Allen belts. My instinct says muon catalyzed fusion isn't going to make a significant contribution, but I could be wrong. > >3) primordial D that is still "out there" being gradually sucked in by gravity >(or pushed in by gravity, if you are so inclined) [snip] I think this point is pretty much covered by #1. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 20:24:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24863; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:23:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:23:27 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Bush Presidency and New Energy Technology Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:25:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kew1D2.0.L46._i4Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. We now have a new president, George W Bush, and I'd like to again broach the subject of what this may mean to the members of vortex. Many of us are staking our careers and livelihoods on some form of New Energy Tech, be it cold fusion, plasma discharge, exotic electromagnetics, etc etc. I now respectfully request comment from this community on how they see a Bush administration handling this issue. I gather from the traffic of recent that several posters feel pretty strongly inclined towards Mr. Bush, and I'm sure they've thought this issue through before casting their ballot. Please comment on whether you feel this admin will help or hinder the cause, and why. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 20:46:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30850; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:44:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:44:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:44:02 -0500 Message-Id: <200012140444.XAA01679 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Bush Presidency and New Energy Technology Resent-Message-ID: <"rwspZ.0.yX7.Q05Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy! Well, Unity seems to be his mantra, according to ABC News, if that is any indication. I guess that leaves us overunity seekers still out in the cold. ;) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 21:25:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10887; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:24:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:24:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Voltage dependent resistors In-Reply-To: <91of3tgncankmi1c5ngcc27jfknoo1gp5n 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZpfSZ1.0.1g2.-b5Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Unless we are using different words the Voltage Dependent Resistors, or VDR, are any type of device which exhibits Negative Resistance..... and, no, tby this I do NOT mean you hook it up and it gives off power! Many diodes and transistors do this all of their own and some are designed to. some of these include but are not limited to: 1] Tunnel diode [s] 2] Many of the diodes which will "break down" but not in a catastrophic manner ... ie a diode with a series resistor 3] Many transistors which can be hooked up as similar to [2] 4] Many Many gas filled tubes. 5] A host of truly odd materials'effects. On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to sno's message of Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:01:50 -0500: > > >JLN has posted the procedure for "conditioning" the > >output resistor, used in the MEG....causing it to become a > >"non linear" resistor....can anyone explain to me what > >is going on here...and how the carbon resistor is > >changed..???? > > > >http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/negres.htm > > > >Thank you....steve opelc > Funny you should ask that...just this morning I was reading chapter one of > Gerry Vassilatos' book "Secrets of Cold War Technology". He says that Tesla > used high voltage DC pulses generated by a magnetically quenched spark gap > to "separate the aether from the charges", and create an "aether current". > This looks very similar to what JLN is doing, though a more conventional > explanation would be that he is just frying the resistor ;). > Still, I would find it hard to explain how a fried resistor could end up > being voltage dependant....which leads me to wonder if anyone has tried true > voltage dependant resistors as manufactured? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:32:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11119; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:31:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:31:41 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:20:22 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3c6d2f.1466289382 mail.midiowa.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001212214049.007adae0@pop.mind spring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001213082307.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213082307.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA11091 Resent-Message-ID: <"ncC-3.0.fj2.TT7Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:56:59 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: > >>I agree that you should be able to re-run these ballots many times. >>So then the question becomes -- why all the chads scattered on the >>tables and floors of the manual recount rooms? The first run through >>the counting machines (I don't know if these were standard card >>readers, sorters, or what) should have dislodged almost all "hanging" >>chads. The second run (automatically triggered recount) should have >>disposed of the few remaining. > >I think there are three reasons: > >1. From my days with paper tape, I recall the chad gets everywhere, and it >sticks. From static electricity perhaps? A small, flat, disk shape below a >certain weight sticks well to any surface. Paper tape chads do stick (especially from the oiled tape). And some tape machines were designed to keep the chad attached to the tape so they wouldn't stray into the equipment and jam the works. >2. I am not sure you are right that all "hanging chad" would be dislodged >on the first pass. Those machines are supposed to be gentle, and not to >disturb the card surface. I suppose "gentle" is a relative term. :) The card readers I used ran at 300 to 1000 cards/minute. The throat had to be very precisely adjusted to make sure only one card fed on each cycle. Wrinkled cards could be put through a machine that corrugated the card while straightening it, so it would run through the readers. BTW, the fastest paper tape units ran about 2000 characters/second (200 inches/second). That was too fast for takeup reels, so the tape was dumped into a large box (about 6x6x4 feet) and rewound later. Any chads around would instantly snap the tape. >3. A certain number of new holes are being made. Probably not deliberately. >I doubt that a single one of those volunteers would cheat. But random holes >are probably punched out. This would have no real effect on the count, >since they are random. Right, if they were random. But do you remember the unusually high Buchanan votes? Here's one analysis: (from: http://www.allegedfraud.com/ ) ************************************* There are statistical anomalies in the original vote tally in Florida that would seem to indicate serious voter fraud. Of the three possible scenarios, two indicate Gore fraud, one indicates Bush fraud, all can easily be proved or disproved in a few hours. Consider the following: 1.How could Pat Buchanan get such an unusually high volume of votes above the expected number? 2.What is the probability that there were so many double punched ballots? 3.How could a 94% of voters in Florida's African American precincts voted for Gore which is significantly above the national averages? Don't let them touch the Palm Beach ballots! Here are some statistical comments on the high Buchanan vote count. I am alleging voter fraud in Florida on a local level with a possible cover up by someone in the Gore administration, his campaign and/or legal council afterwards. I know why the Democrats are screaming to the media and why they wanted a recount so badly. As a mathematician, it is statistically impossible that Pat Buchanan could have 2,500 votes higher than the predicted total for Palm Beach county. The statistical odds are calculated in the same way as the odds of flipping a coin and getting heads 200 times in a row. The probability formula would be 1 divided by 2 x 2 x 2 ......(200 times). So how would you calculate the odds of mis-voting 2,500 times? Here it is: Out of 300,000 democratic votes in Palm Beach county, Pat Buchanan received 2,500 more votes than would be predicted by more conservative counties. He received 3,300 rather than an estimated 800 (which is generous). This means 1 out of every 100 could be thought to be an error if it is assumed the high votes were a result of unclear ballots. Statistically, a butterfly ballot done by 2nd graders who can recognize the letters G O R and E had a calculated error of less than 1 out of every 1,000. So if you were to take the 300,000 and figure the greatest conceivable deviation (1 in a billion) of accidental votes, there would be at most 300 errant votes. Now if you take subsets of 100 ballots there is a one in ten chance of the 1 in 1,000 odds of mis-voting. Multiplying that times the 3,000 subsets of 100 votes gives you 300,000 total votes which produces a probability equation that makes the coin flipping heads 200 times easy. The formula is about 1 over (10 x10 x10 ........ 2,500 times) or 0.00000000000 ( with 2,500 "0's") 0000000001. DNA analysis only needs a precision of nine "0's". The odds of that many people in that county incorrectly filling out the ballot for Buchanan is way more than TRILLIONS TO ONE. If you were to take all the stars in all the galaxies and had to pick just one the odds would still not be as great. You would still have to pick one atom of hydrogen on that star to get the same odds. So why the media frenzy? In order for Gore to close the 50-100,000 votes with 2% of the precincts remaining, 40 people would have to stuff 2,500 ballots each. Either that or have 2,000 bus loads show up to insure extraordinary final returns. Now normally in a sea of ballots it would be impossible to distinguish one ballot from the next ........ unless you had a way to see that there were 2,500 ballots had some incriminating feature. Maybe they all have the same finger prints on it? Or are these 2,500 ballots identical? Now imagine how freaked out you would be if you had filled out 2,500 ballots by copier or by hand or punching dozens at a time and MISTAKENLY they were for the libertarian candidate, grass roots candidate or Pat Buchanan!!!! The Democrat machine had to think fast. This error needs a spin. These ballots are evidence of voter fraud. Remember kids, massive voter fraud would bring down a political party, and a President. The stakes are very high. Now how does the Democrats get those ballots back? Uh oh, they are locked up!!! They are caught red handed. Do you let it go and hope nobody leaks? They could have, but "Uh oh" the election is under the mandatory recount %. Wouldn't it have more likely been a Bush worker that would have created the double-punched ballots? Possibly, though the double-punched ballots need not indicate a BUSH worker fraud. Might a Gore worker have taken a stack of voted ballots, many Bush, few Buchanan, many Gore, some blank (no president vote) stack the ballots up, and stick a wire through the Gore vote hole. Now Gore votes are still valid while the Bush and Buchanan votes are DOUBLE-PUNCHED and disallowed, and non-voters are a Gore vote. What did the Democrats do next? Call the radio station, call a telemarketer, call your preacher, call NAACP. Start drawing the attention away from the real issue. Make a media frenzy. All one has to do is look at the Buchanan ballots and you will find out why the Democrats are running scared. Look for identical fingerprints on multiple ballots, or identically marked ballots by a machine, or both. Why the hand count: Remember the ballots remain under lock and key. So as the old saying goes, don't raise your voice when you should strengthen your argument. The opposite is even better: If you can't strengthen your argument raise your voice or in this case "scream" They want to hand count so that they can put finger prints on all the ballots. Also, if Palm Beach county had 40 precincts it would be impossible for one person to be in all 40 places at once or to have many of the ballots appear the same. ************************************* There are two other statistical analysis of the voting in Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties, one by a professor of mathematics at the University of Nevada (for some reason they have a strong department of statistics :) and another by Robert Cook, a programmer/system designer in Atlanta. Each analyzed other aspects of the vote distribution and came to conclusions similar to the above. Cook, who is apparently familiar with the card-type ballots, explained how to quickly alter small batches of ballots with a skewer-type device (a small, rectangular pin with a handle on one end). >In closing arguments, as they say in court, I'd like to quote Stan >Kelly-Bootle's book "The Devil's DP Dictionary" (McGraw-Hill, 1981). >Warning: If you find this book funny, or even comprehensible, you must >admit to being of a certain age and disposition, shall we say. Yup. Got that book (and others similar) packed away. :) -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:48:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15070; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:48:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:48:15 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:36:51 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3d7844.1469126233 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001213154617.00c3fec0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213154617.00c3fec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA15034 Resent-Message-ID: <"1tPka1.0.Jh3._i7Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:49:28 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: > >>I see you've fallen for that media hype. That law was signed by the >>former Texas governor, Ann Richards (Democrat). > >Not according to formal testimony before the Florida and U.S. Supreme >Courts. In televised proceedings, the Democratic Party lawyers claimed it >was Bush, and the Republicans did not object or attempt to rebut, so it >must be true. You're right. The original law was signed by Richards, but changes were made in the law in 1997 and Bush signed it. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 13 23:50:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15545; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:49:23 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:37:59 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3e78a8.1469226678 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001213154617.00c3fec0@pop.mindspring.com> <3A37EEA7.CE51C60C@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3A37EEA7.CE51C60C bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA15511 Resent-Message-ID: <"cEluS.0.po3.3k7Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:48:23 -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: >You're both right. The original bill was signed by Richards and >a revision to the bill was signed by Dubya. I should have read your message before doing 1/2 hour more research when answering Jed's message. :) -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 00:05:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA17807; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:04:42 -0800 Message-ID: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: "Lynda Witz" Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:04:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TO3he.0.5M4.Qy7Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: I've been signed off the Vortex-L List since becoming an extension on the 47 foot hose of an Oxygen Concentrator. I quit smoking in 1987 when I noticed a bit of shortness of breath when doing heavy work. This helped sustantially and there were no problems until the fall of 1995, (8 years later) after having a bout with a respiratory infection that turned into "Walking Pneumonia". Since 1995 I've been using "Bronchial Dilators" of one type or another to relieve the asthma-like "COPD" which I think translates to Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease, which has no targeted cause and little if any cure? Coincidentally in the summer of 1995 we had three large rooms of new "static proof" carpeting installed which replaced the three rooms of 501 Nylon that had seen 31 years of use. I haven't seen any shocks from static electricity (Light Leptons?)since the new carpet was installed. If this carpet was out-gassing during the summer of 1995 the 6,000 CFM evaporative air conditioner would have rapidly removed the vapors. However, in the fall of 1995 when the air conditioner was off and the air changes were infrequent and random, I developed "Walking Pneumonia" and asthma-like COPD. I notice that when the room temperature gets above 70 F it seems that there may be increased out-gassing of the carpeting/static-proof treatment. No problem, the Oxygen Concentrator picks up the vapors from the carpet and concentrates them and blows them up my nose along with the 97% O2. This is offset with a room humdifier that cranks 20 pounds of water vapor into the house (about 1200 Lbs of air) every six hours. Again No Problem, the 1/4 horsepower 300 nanometer (and up) air filter picks up the O2, water vapor, dustmites, and carpet/treatment out-gasses and cleans them so that they go into O2 concentrator, pure. Guess who recycles them at about $500.00/mo and up, in medical bills? Thoughts? Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 00:26:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21153; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:26:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:26:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> References: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:26:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"1kXoX.0.OA5.cG8Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Worse than carpets: mold. Try garlic. Fresh, raw, lots of it. Bad for love life, good for respiratory infections. Glad to see you back! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 00:40:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA23056; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:39:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:39:17 -0800 Message-ID: <006001c065a1$0258fbe0$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: "Lynda Witz" References: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:39:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"s5ao01.0.Ae5.rS8Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:26 AM Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? LOL! BTW, the high efficiency swamp cooler that sits on the roof has honeycomb evaporator surfaces as does the room humidifier that is a perfect celluosic substrate for mold/fungi. :-( Regards, Frederick > Worse than carpets: mold. > > Try garlic. Fresh, raw, lots of it. Bad for love life, good for > respiratory infections. > > Glad to see you back! > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 01:37:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30767; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:36:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:36:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006001c065a1$0258fbe0$b055143f computer> References: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> <006001c065a1$0258fbe0$b055143f computer> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:36:26 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"hfMoW1.0.eW7.YI9Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No kidding. Hope you're not a Legionaire! >LOL! > >BTW, the high efficiency swamp cooler that sits on the roof has honeycomb >evaporator surfaces as does the room humidifier that is a perfect celluosic >substrate for mold/fungi. :-( > >Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 02:30:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA05622; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 02:29:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 02:29:59 -0800 Message-ID: <010001c065b0$79239b40$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: References: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer><006001c065a1$0258fbe0$b055143f@computer> Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 03:30:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"UMOUg3.0.hN1.d4AEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 3:36 AM Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? > No kidding. Hope you're not a Legionaire! Nope. The wood shaving and paper fiber swamp coolers have been used in low humidity areas for decades. Perhaps the buildup of alkali from evaporating the water inhibits bacteria/mold growth? However, the new "high efficiency" honeycomb units could promote such growth, if the units are idle for extended periods. I had a good summer when the swamper was running 15 hours a day, buy when it got cool and the swamper was shut down and the doors were closed. Big problems. Concrete floors that can be washed down, maybe? Perhaps a jail cell is the answer? :-( Regards, Frederick > > >LOL! > > > >BTW, the high efficiency swamp cooler that sits on the roof has honeycomb > >evaporator surfaces as does the room humidifier that is a perfect cellulosic > >substrate for mold/fungi. :-( > > > >Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:05:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23441; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:03:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3A38E428.D3CB46B8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:15:52 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: re: Wall to wall killer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5GAWM.0.Bk5.U5EEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dec. 14, 2000 Fred, Nice to see you back. Replace the wall to walls with hardwood flooring and use natural fiber area rugs cleaned periodically. My older brother in law had a near emphysema onset and weakened immune system through his years in the hectic publishing business in Japan. Like most of his career types, he smoked heavily, drank, and kept late hours. He also was susceptible to allergies. When he retired, he spent more time at his western type house with wall to wall carpeting. And he was seasonally miserable with outbreaks of allergies. Since my wife had similar allergic reactions, we advised him to not only stop smoking and cut drinking but to replace all his carpeting with hardwood flooring like we did. He had seen our house so he knew what we were talking about. And amazingly, he took our advice to heart and got rid of the wall to wall and cut out his smoking, brute force. His general condition improved greatly and today he is actively healthy and alert. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:28:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31908; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:27:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:27:02 -0800 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 09:23:59 -0700 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? In-reply-to: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: "tp.sparber" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Lynda Witz Message-id: <3.0.1.32.20001001092359.00f35d10 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7IicQ1.0.Uo7.6REEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:04 AM 12/14/2000 -0600, tp.sparber wrote: >To Vortex: > >I've been signed off the Vortex-L List since becoming an extension >on the 47 foot hose of an Oxygen Concentrator. Fred, how does that device concentrate oxygen? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:29:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31888; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:27:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:27:02 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:24:48 -0800 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3.0.1.32.20001214092448.00f3edf8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"H6Y0a1.0.9o7.5REEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:04 AM 12/14/2000 -0600, tp.sparber wrote: >To Vortex: > >I've been signed off the Vortex-L List since becoming an extension >on the 47 foot hose of an Oxygen Concentrator. Fred, how does that device concentrate oxygen? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:49:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06730; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:46:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:46:35 -0800 Message-ID: <014e01c065dc$afdd4ba0$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Subject: RE: Wall to Wall Killer? Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:46:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C065AA.58C93180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WaCMI.0._e1.QjEEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C065AA.58C93180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a site, Scott. http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/noncryo.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C065AA.58C93180 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="BOC Gases Air Separation Noncryogenic Air Separation.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BOC Gases Air Separation Noncryogenic Air Separation.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/noncryo.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/noncryo.htm Modified=8021AA78DC65C001C5 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C065AA.58C93180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:49:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06972; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:47:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:47:34 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214085453.00be0008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:39:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3A380CE8.7553217B ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"jgpF_2.0.si1.LkEEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >Nevertheless, decay is present in our >society and this >will result in bad decisions, just as decay in Germany in >1930 produced >Hitler. Not that bad! Let us not exaggerate; things are nowhere near as awful as that. >Many people are not affected by the decay, except as >observers. On the other >hand, one has to ask why so many homeless exist today or why >must two people >in a family work when one was sufficient 20 years ago? Actually, as far as I know, the number of homeless people has not changed much in the last generation. The problem gets a more press coverage than it used to, which is good. Coverage may give people the false impression that the problem is growing worse. That's okay too, since it motivates the public to help. > One >has to ask why >young students are killing their school mates with guns if >nothing has changed >in society? I think the causes are mundane, albeit horrifying. Guns are cheaper than they used to be, so they are more widespread. Kids who used to fight with fists or knives can now afford guns. But actually, school safety in the U.S. is better than it ever has been, by a wide margin. There were many more teachers and students beat up and killed in schools in earlier eras, especially after the Civil War. Incidents like the one described in L. I. Wilder's book "Farmer Boy" were common. A gang of thugs broke up the school in midwinter for several years in a row, cancelling the rest of the term. One year they killed the teacher. The next year, the replacement teacher horsewhipped the thugs. (Wilder may have fictionalized this story, but similar incidents were reported frequently.) Imagine the response if anything like that happened today! The school would be surrounded by police cars and hundreds of news reporters from every part of the world. I live in a rather rough neighborhood. Three students from our school have been killed in recent years, but that was outside the school, after hours. There is no hint of disorder in the school. The discipline, academic standards, and number of rules is much higher than it was in the 1960s when I was a teenager, or the 1920s and 30s when my parents were in school. >The situation in CF does not help my mood, but many other >examples are visible >everyday on TV and the poor press coverage is apparent to >anyone who reads the >papers. On the other hand, I read the newspapers published in 1880, 1906 and 1932, and that gives me a much more positive view of the present. If you think we have problems today, imagine how the people living in Atlanta felt in September 1906. Thousands of armed thugs descended on neighborhoods here, burned houses and businesses, and slaughtered dozens (perhaps hundreds) of men, women and children. The rioters were assisted by police and egged on by both candidates for governor, in a race-baiting campaign. I mean that both candidates were actively calling on white people to go on the rampage, which meant shooting, hanging and castrating black people. Compared to that, our most heated and divisive political rhetoric looks like a faux pas at a tea party. Our worst social problems hardly exist. (See, http://www.peachstar.org/ga_stories/topics/056t/homepg.htm, Atlanta Constitution. 23 September 1906, "Atlanta is Swept by Raging Mob Due to Assaults on White Women; 16 Negroes Reported to be Dead") I describe this not because I am a pessimist and I want to wallow in the horrors of the past, but because I am cautiously optimistic. This history proves we can make progress, and we can overcome social problems much worse than the ones we face today. We can backslide too! > Just asking a normal teenager about anything beyond >his immediate >reality is enough to makes a person wonder how the human >race ever got this >far. My mother said that normal teenagers in New York City in the 1920s were every bit as ignorant as they are today. They had no idea who George Washington was or how many states there were, and they did not care. The movies, books and newspapers of that era give me the impression that most people were ignorant and gullible. Look at popular treatments of scientific subjects, science fiction, and radio programs like "Believe it or Not." The average reader did not appear to know more than "National Enquirer" readers today. There is confusion about this. From time to time you see artifacts from the past, like a high school entrance examination from 1890. The questions seem more difficult than today's high school exams, for two reasons. First, only a small fraction of the population went to high school. The tests were designed to weed out most students, like Ivy League college entrance standards today. Second, many of the subjects, especially history & literature, are no longer part of the curriculum. I happen to know the history they cover in some of these tests. The questions which look obscure to us came straight out of the textbooks, so they were easy. A student from 1890 would do poorly on today's SAT exams, even if you chopped out questions that require knowledge of events, science and technology discovered after 1890. (This would eliminate a surprisingly large chunk of the test.) My daughters are in high school and college. In general, I am very impressed by the academic abilities & maturity of today's students. And when I went to college in the 1970s in the U.S. and Japan, the professors said they were impressed by my generation. One said, "Some commentators claim that my generation studied hard in the 1930s and 40s, and you people are goofing off. That's a myth." My Japanese professors said they spent their postwar academic years cutting classes, reading novels instead of doing assignments, and scrounging for food. When the professor took attendance, the people in the back of the class would move around and raise their hands to cover for friends who were sleeping off a hangover or working in the fields. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 07:53:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07740; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:50:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:50:26 -0800 Message-ID: <015b01c065dd$388b3980$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: References: <3A38E428.D3CB46B8 ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Wall to wall killer? Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:50:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"zSrFk1.0.mu1.2nEEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: Vortex Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 9:15 AM Subject: re: Wall to wall killer? > Dec. 14, 2000 > > Fred, > > Nice to see you back. Thanks Akira, good to hear from you guys thanks a bunch for the private notes. I'm going looking for a sleezy motel without carpeting. :-) Best, Frederick > > Replace the wall to walls with hardwood flooring and use natural fiber > area rugs cleaned periodically. > > My older brother in law had a near emphysema onset and weakened immune > system through his years in the hectic publishing business in Japan. > Like most of his career types, he smoked heavily, drank, and kept late > hours. He also was susceptible to allergies. > When he retired, he spent more time at his western type house with wall > to wall carpeting. And he was seasonally miserable with outbreaks of > allergies. > > Since my wife had similar allergic reactions, we advised him to not only > stop smoking and cut drinking but to replace all his carpeting with > hardwood flooring like we did. He had seen our house so he knew what we > were talking about. And amazingly, he took our advice to heart and got > rid of the wall to wall and cut out his smoking, brute force. His > general condition improved greatly and today he is actively healthy and > alert. > > -AK- > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 09:10:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29775; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:58:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213155319.00be0008 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A37CAD7.9C33399C groupz.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:57:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Resent-Message-ID: <"d2dq82.0.9H7.PmFEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones bleats: > >> > Bottom line: when the economic chickens come home to roost, whoever is in >> > office is likely to do exactly the wrong thing: strangle the economy >> > further, rather than free it up, and the likely denouement will be to turn >> > this nation into a third-world hell-hole ruled by a tinpot fascist >> dictator. > >Will this happen before or after the Y2K disaster finally hits? ***{I didn't predict any disaster associated with Y2K. Instead, I said all along that I did not know what was going to be the outcome. If you think you remember otherwise, it is just another example of your tendency to put forth exaggerations and falsehoods based on wishful thinking. --MJ}*** > >What about your previous prediction, that the Administration would stuff >thousands of fake absentee votes in Florida? ***{The first sentence of that message read as follows: "With the Bush margin down to a bit more than 300 votes in Florida, I would say that a Gore presidency is now rather likely." Since "rather likely" leaves open the possibility that the event will not happen, it is inappropriate to describe it as a "prediction." (I even mentioned, in another post on the same topic, one of the reasons for being uncertain that it would happen: Clinton might not have thought of it.) --MJ}*** The only event remotely like >that was in one county where Republicans filled in incomplete forms, in a >technical violation of the rules. ***{Another exaggeration based on wishful thinking. The fact of the matter is that you are not omniscient, and thus you have no idea what went on in the rest of Florida or in the rest of the U.S. My guess, based on logic and a number of historical examples, is that every close state won by the Democrats was stolen, but there is no way I can provide a factual demonstration of that proposition. --MJ}*** > >If this dreadful prediction does not come true, the sky does not fall, and >we manage to survive the next four years intact, will you learn to stop >making e predictions of cataclysmic trouble? ***{More exaggeration. I said, "Whoever takes office this time around faces a likely economic disaster"--which means: I once again left open the possibility that the event would not happen during the projected time frame. The fact of the matter is that it is impossible to accurately foretell the timing of major news events. Result: reasonable people limit their predictions to the question of *what* is going to happen, and either qualify their statements about timing or avoid such statements altogether. --MJ}*** I think you enjoy it too much >to stop. ***{I enjoy analytical writing, whatever the topic. Given that state of affairs, why should I stop doing it? --MJ}*** > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 09:15:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01436; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:10:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:10:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214111702.00c3fec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:10:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3A380CE8.7553217B ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"r2wUZ2.0.MM.RyFEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't resist commenting again. Edmund Storms wrote: . . . decay in Germany in >1930 produced >Hitler. I do not expect to see such an extreme here, but >anything is possible >when ignorant people get desperate. How would you expect >people having no >savings will behave when they lose their jobs and their >debts cause them to >lose their homes and cars? Meanwhile, they have learned not >to respect the >government and have no trust in being helped. In a crisis, people suddenly learn to love the government. If there is a debt crisis these people will demand -- and get -- swift and decisive government action. Look what happened when the S&Ls collapsed, or in 1998 when the "Long Term Capital Management" fund turned out to be crapshoot that threatened to wipe billions in bank assets. Uncle Sam to the rescue! I think it is fashionable to attack the government today, and to pretend that we are rugged individualists, but it is just an act. Take your typical Atlanta suburban government basher, who rails on about high taxes and unfair restrictions. When something goes wrong -- our streets are blocked with branches for a storm, or we need another $200 million bridge -- these are the first people who howl for government largesse. No neighborhood has more restrictive, intrusive local government red tape than a suburban gated community. When someone tries to paint a mailbox an odd color, these people call the police! In a recent case a neighborhood tried to impose a $6,000 fine on a woman because she decorated her lawn with pink plastic flamingos. They said she was lowering real estate values. This was in the heart of the Republican Gingrich district. (Where I live, we are free to decorate with plastic flamingos, a large plastic deer which I mistook for a real deer, or cars jacked up on cinder blocks.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 11:13:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07601; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003901c065fd$e1c21c60$96a8f1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:44:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4vLnv3.0.hs1.2LHEw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell > Everyone knows that the machines in urban, mainly Democratic districts are > older and subject to much higher error and dropout rates. They fail 1 in > ~60 times versus 1 in ~300 for the Republican districts. Normally, this > does not make a difference in an election, but in this case it must be > considered. > Jed, I have watched the results of the president elections in the US with amazing. If such an situation would occur in the Netherlands then,just as you mentioned Jed, a committee would establish the rules for counting the ballots. Further the discussion would concentrate on the issue why so many different voting machines where used ( and who is responsible for that)and if certain groups in the population would be discriminated by different counting methodes. The principle to count all the votes would under all circumstances prevail. This is the cornerstone of our Democratic framework. I think that this inaequality in counting the votes by different standards is also an violation of the so called Equal Protection Clause. Peter van Noorden pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 12:41:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11056; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:37:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:37:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208161318.02ccc280 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2@bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:37:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"Li5du2.0.Zi2.b-IEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{If the samples cannot be equalized, then water is not one substance, >>but many. > >That is incorrect. It might be one substance which responds in different >ways to nonmaterial conditions such as temperature and vibrations. ***{No, you are simply ignoring the logic of the situation, that's all. The fact is that if a sample of water, call it A, starts at some relatively high temperature Th, then falls to a more moderate temperature Tm, and thence falls to freezing, Tf, there is going to be a time, t1, required under those conditions for the sample to fall from Th to Tm, and a second time, t2, required for the sample to fall from Tm to Tf. Result: since t1 + t2 > t2, we can say that any other sample of water under the same conditions, is also going to require the time t1 to fall from Th to Tm, and the time t2 to fall from Tm to Tf. Result: any sample B is going to take longer to fall from Th to Tf than it takes A to fall from Tm to Tf--which means: the "Mpemba effect" is wrong, unless ordinary water is a mixture of unknown substances. --MJ}*** We >already know this is the case: as Terry pointed out, water can be >supercooled below 0 degrees. When you tap the bottle, the water >crystallizes and forms ice. No material changes occur; it is the same >substance before and after the phase change. The change is triggered by the >energy of vibration, from tapping. You can take the very same water, melt >it, cool it again and this time it may not supercool. ***{According to the principle of induction, which is the most fundamental principle of science, if the conditions are, in significant respects, the same as they were in the past, then the event will be the same. That means if the internal conditions of the sample are the same, and the external conditions of the sample are the same, then the result must be the same. Thus if you take the same sample, subject it to what you *think* are the same conditions, and get different outcomes, it is because, unbeknownst to you, something changed. --MJ}*** > >I think the supercooling effect only works with quiescent water, which has >not been stirred for hours, in which the molecules fall into a well known >tetrahedral arrangement and stay that way. As I understand it, they have to >re-arrange themselves to form ice, and sometimes they require a push. The >Mpemba effect may be similar. It may also depend upon the shape of the >container. ***{That's just noise. The point you need to address is the one I raised in my very first post on this subject: how can t1 + t2 for one sample be less than t2 for the other, if the samples are the same and the conditions, both internal and external, are the same? The answer, obviously, is that it can't, and the indicated conclusion is that the "Mpemba effect" is totally bogus utter nonsense, as I said. --MJ}*** > >I'm not saying the Mpemba effect is caused by energy levels, thermal >stratification, or some other non material conditions, but it might be. We >don't know yet, and we have no knowledge base on which to make an >intelligent guess. Now, if this were happening with liquid helium, we would >have a knowledge base and many solid theories to go by, but water is terra >incognita. It is like the human brain: close at hand, common as dirt, but >we know practically nothing about it yet. ***{If the "Mpemba effect" is intended to refer to situations where the conditions of the samples differ in some unknown way, then until the specifics of the differences have been characterized, there is no basis whatever for thinking the effect is anomalous--which means: the effect is off-topic in this group. On the other hand, if the "Mpemba effect" is as originally indicated--i.e., a case where a lower temperature sample reaches freezing more rapidly than a higher temperature sample, *other things equal*--then the claimed anomaly is *polywater*. --MJ}*** >> In that case, every investigation which has been conducted in the >>history of science that involved the comparison of a test cell to a >>control, where the cells contained water, is invalidated: . . . > >In most investigations, the difference between the test and control is not >significant, and it has no effect on the experiment. In all cases, the test >cell and the control are different. There are no two objects in the >universe which are precisely the same. At some level, there must be >differences in impurities, mass, temperature, configuration and so on. ***{As noted above, the principle of induction is focused on *significant* differences. It states that if the conditions are the same *in all significant respects*, then the resulting event will be the same, *in all significant respects*. These qualifiers are, of course, so obvious that they are seldom stated. It is a general principle of language, essential to communication, that standard conditions are assumed unless it is explicitly stated otherwise. Indeed, this rule is the reason it is inappropriate to describe the "Mpemba effect" as being a case where "Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions," unless you intend that "other things equal" is to be assumed. Why must "other things equal" be assumed? Because that is the standard context in which comparisons are made. (If I say Bill's height is 4 feet and Sam's is 6 feet, I mean when both are standing erect. I do *not* mean when Bill is bent over tying his shoes and Sam is standing erect.) Result: the "experimental conditions" must be assumed equal for the two samples, and, if that assumption is in fact made, then we must be talking about *polywater*. --MJ}*** >>any differences >>or lack thereof between the behavior of the experimental setup and the >>control could have been due to differences, or the lack thereof, in the >>"water." > >Of course that is always a possibility. Until you discover what is causing >the experiment to act the way it does, and until you prove you have >isolated the control factors, a result might always be due to differences >in materials, because no two samples of materials can ever be the same. And >for that matter the differences might be caused by nonmaterial differences, >such as the temperature or the electric charge of the two samples. ***{I repeat: it is inappropriate to describe the Mpemba effect by saying "Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions" unless the assumption is that the experimental conditions in each case are the same for both samples. If the idea is merely that "Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water when there are unknown but significant differences in the conditions of the two samples," then that's what should have been said. However, if that's what had been said, then there would have been no implication of anything anomalous about the report, and there would have been no reason to post it to this group. --MJ}*** >> Bottom line: you have a choice between ripping the guts out of the >>structure of human knowledge, or simply admitting that you were wrong. I >>suggest that you do the latter. --MJ}*** > >If the structure of human knowledge depends upon our understanding water, >then human knowledge hardly exists. But this story is about experiments, >not theories, or the grand structure of knowledge. There is no "wrong" >here. The Mpemba effect is real. There's no doubt about it. Extensive >studies have been conducted to isolate the control factors, and to find out >whether the effect is caused by material differences, such as gas in the >water, or by non material differences such as the arrangement of water >molecules in the liquid which might cause differences in thermal >stratification and cooling rates. At this stage, we do not know what causes >the effect, and there is no way you or anyone else can predict a priori >where the answer lies. ***{If that's what you had in mind, then why did you post the report to this group? The world is awash with reports of phenomena that arise due to unknown causes. "Unknown" is not the same as "anomalous." There is no basis for assuming that, when the differences between the "cold water that freezes faster" and the "warm water that freezes slower" are identified, the explanation will lie outside of conventional science. It is only when an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to this group. --MJ}*** > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 14:09:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07486; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:06:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:06:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3A393654.CE564141 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:06:33 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214085453.00be0008@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YsaDA.0.tq1.SHKEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >Nevertheless, decay is present in our > >society and this > >will result in bad decisions, just as decay in Germany in > >1930 produced > >Hitler. > > Not that bad! Let us not exaggerate; things are nowhere near as awful as that. No. not yet. However, we have 4 years to see the result of this drama. I can not imagine how a weak and immature president, a Congress equally divided, a self- serving Supreme Court, and an ignorant and divided electorate can solve difficult problems. > > > >Many people are not affected by the decay, except as > >observers. On the other > >hand, one has to ask why so many homeless exist today or why > >must two people > >in a family work when one was sufficient 20 years ago? > > Actually, as far as I know, the number of homeless people has not changed > much in the last generation. The problem gets a more press coverage than it > used to, which is good. Coverage may give people the false impression that > the problem is growing worse. That's okay too, since it motivates the > public to help. Actually, one only needs to look to see the change in the number of homeless people. In addition, all of the organizations that try to help this problem are, by their own admission, overwhelmed. > > > > One > >has to ask why > >young students are killing their school mates with guns if > >nothing has changed > >in society? > > I think the causes are mundane, albeit horrifying. Guns are cheaper than > they used to be, so they are more widespread. Kids who used to fight with > fists or knives can now afford guns. But actually, school safety in the > U.S. is better than it ever has been, by a wide margin. There were many > more teachers and students beat up and killed in schools in earlier eras, > especially after the Civil War. Incidents like the one described in L. I. > Wilder's book "Farmer Boy" were common. A gang of thugs broke up the school > in midwinter for several years in a row, cancelling the rest of the term. > One year they killed the teacher. The next year, the replacement teacher > horsewhipped the thugs. (Wilder may have fictionalized this story, but > similar incidents were reported frequently.) Imagine the response if > anything like that happened today! The school would be surrounded by police > cars and hundreds of news reporters from every part of the world. Once again, I think you are missing the profound change that has occurred. Of course thugs have always existed and guns are more easily acquired. Nevertheless, when I grew up, even the idea of harming a teacher or killing a student was completely foreign, even to thugs. When killings occurred, the reasons usually made sense. Of course, things were bad after the Civil war, but that was a previous cycle having no bearing on the present problem. We are in a new cycle and need to see what is happening today. > > > I live in a rather rough neighborhood. Three students from our school have > been killed in recent years, but that was outside the school, after hours. > There is no hint of disorder in the school. The discipline, academic > standards, and number of rules is much higher than it was in the 1960s when > I was a teenager, or the 1920s and 30s when my parents were in school. On the other hand, I grew up in a typical middle class neighborhood. Killings were rare and I knew of no student that was killed by another person. I expect, this was not true in the Black ghetto in Harrisburg. In this sense, the breakdown of society that occurred first in the Black neighborhoods has now expanded to the White neighborhoods. The cause is the same and the results are the same. > > > >The situation in CF does not help my mood, but many other > >examples are visible > >everyday on TV and the poor press coverage is apparent to > >anyone who reads the > >papers. > > On the other hand, I read the newspapers published in 1880, 1906 and 1932, > and that gives me a much more positive view of the present. If you think we > have problems today, imagine how the people living in Atlanta felt in > September 1906. Thousands of armed thugs descended on neighborhoods here, > burned houses and businesses, and slaughtered dozens (perhaps hundreds) of > men, women and children. The rioters were assisted by police and egged on > by both candidates for governor, in a race-baiting campaign. I mean that > both candidates were actively calling on white people to go on the rampage, > which meant shooting, hanging and castrating black people. Compared to > that, our most heated and divisive political rhetoric looks like a faux pas > at a tea party. Our worst social problems hardly exist. Of course, things were much worse in previous cycles. However, this is small comfort when a person is living at a time when the cycle is going down. The only uncertainty is how far down will it go before it turns around. The other question is how does a person protect him self during this time. What does a person do before it is too late to do anything? This question does not even get asked by people who do not believe the cycle is going down. > > > (See, http://www.peachstar.org/ga_stories/topics/056t/homepg.htm, Atlanta > Constitution. 23 September 1906, "Atlanta is Swept by Raging Mob Due to > Assaults on White Women; 16 Negroes Reported to be Dead") > > I describe this not because I am a pessimist and I want to wallow in the > horrors of the past, but because I am cautiously optimistic. This history > proves we can make progress, and we can overcome social problems much worse > than the ones we face today. We can backslide too! I agree, and these problems will be solved. Meanwhile, we as individuals can not wait for a solution, we need to protect ourselves before the solution arrives, because the solution might not come for another 10 years. > > > > Just asking a normal teenager about anything beyond > >his immediate > >reality is enough to makes a person wonder how the human > >race ever got this > >far. > > My mother said that normal teenagers in New York City in the 1920s were > every bit as ignorant as they are today. They had no idea who George > Washington was or how many states there were, and they did not care. The > movies, books and newspapers of that era give me the impression that most > people were ignorant and gullible. Look at popular treatments of scientific > subjects, science fiction, and radio programs like "Believe it or Not." The > average reader did not appear to know more than "National Enquirer" readers > today. I agree, ignorance has been common though out history. The results of this ignorance when applied to national policy continues to kill people and make many lives miserable everywhere in the world. Unfortunately, this ignorance has an increasing effect on more people today. In the past, ignorance could destroy a region, now it can destroy everyone. The potential for bad consequences has increased, but the overall level of ignorance has not been reduced. The result obtained from an extrapolation is obvious. > > > There is confusion about this. From time to time you see artifacts from the > past, like a high school entrance examination from 1890. The questions seem > more difficult than today's high school exams, for two reasons. First, only > a small fraction of the population went to high school. The tests were > designed to weed out most students, like Ivy League college entrance > standards today. Second, many of the subjects, especially history & > literature, are no longer part of the curriculum. I happen to know the > history they cover in some of these tests. The questions which look obscure > to us came straight out of the textbooks, so they were easy. A student from > 1890 would do poorly on today's SAT exams, even if you chopped out > questions that require knowledge of events, science and technology > discovered after 1890. (This would eliminate a surprisingly large chunk of > the test.) > > My daughters are in high school and college. In general, I am very > impressed by the academic abilities & maturity of today's students. And > when I went to college in the 1970s in the U.S. and Japan, the professors > said they were impressed by my generation. One said, "Some commentators > claim that my generation studied hard in the 1930s and 40s, and you people > are goofing off. That's a myth." My Japanese professors said they spent > their postwar academic years cutting classes, reading novels instead of > doing assignments, and scrounging for food. When the professor took > attendance, the people in the back of the class would move around and raise > their hands to cover for friends who were sleeping off a hangover or > working in the fields. I agree, a group of well educated and sensible people does exist and this group is growing. Unfortunately, the group of uneducated and partly insane people is growing at a faster rate. In the past, it was the responsibility of people who had the necessary power and influence to structure the system so as to reduce the number of ignorant people or at least reduce their influence. Now these people find making a buck to be more important even if this means contributing to ignorance and insanity. This emphasis on self advantage, in contrast to the betterment of society, is growing and is having an effect on education, journalism and even science. For example, influential people see no harm in making movies and video games that teach violence and antisocial behavior in the name of free speech, but actually because it makes money. Many other examples can be found of this self serving behavior. Where once greed would ruin a town or a region, now it can ruin an entire society. I would hate to be raising my kids at this time. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 14:15:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08576; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:09:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:09:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3A394511.6461B69E groupz.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:09:21 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2@bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eV8pJ2.0.w52.eKKEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unknown not the same as anomalous...???? Sure sound like can be used as synonyms to me.... a anomalous effect, can be used to refer to a unknown effect...or to a known effect, that was not expected....can be used either way..... Check it out.... http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm steve opelc Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >>***{If the samples cannot be equalized, then water is not one substance, > >>but many. > > > ***{If that's what you had in mind, then why did you post the report to > this group? The world is awash with reports of phenomena that arise due to > unknown causes. "Unknown" is not the same as "anomalous." There is no basis > for assuming that, when the differences between the "cold water that > freezes faster" and the "warm water that freezes slower" are identified, > the explanation will lie outside of conventional science. It is only when > an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with > conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to this > group. --MJ}*** > > > > >- Jed > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 14:21:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10771; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:18:49 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:18:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell In-Reply-To: <003901c065fd$e1c21c60$96a8f1c3 vannoorden> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"phoIR2.0.De2.9TKEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter van Noorden wrote: >I have watched the results of the president elections in the US with >amazing. >If such an situation would occur in the Netherlands then,just as you >mentioned Jed, a committee would establish the rules for counting the >ballots. Voting is under local or state jurisdiction in the U.S. At least, it was until Tuesday, when the Supreme Court made it a Federal issue for the first time. I predict thousands of Federal suits will result. In any case, the state of Florida has already formed a bipartisan panel to modernize the voting machines. I am sure there will be reforms nationwide. Neither political party wants to see this happen again. >Further the discussion would concentrate on the issue why so many different >voting machines where used ( and who is responsible for that) . . . No one is responsible. Every town, city or county decides for itself. That's why there are no standards and so many different methods in use. The system evolved slowly over time without much thought. No one is really to blame for this mess. Close elections are rare, so the obsolete and inaccurate equipment has not caused a major problem until now. It is human nature not to fix a problem until it causes a crisis. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 14:45:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17526; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:37:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:37:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A393D92.F24B4741 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:37:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214111702.00c3fec0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vvbU11.0.iH4.IkKEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I can't resist commenting again. Edmund Storms wrote: > > . . . decay in Germany in > >1930 produced > >Hitler. I do not expect to see such an extreme here, but > >anything is possible > >when ignorant people get desperate. How would you expect > >people having no > >savings will behave when they lose their jobs and their > >debts cause them to > >lose their homes and cars? Meanwhile, they have learned not > >to respect the > >government and have no trust in being helped. > > In a crisis, people suddenly learn to love the government. If there is a > debt crisis these people will demand -- and get -- swift and decisive > government action. Look what happened when the S&Ls collapsed, or in 1998 > when the "Long Term Capital Management" fund turned out to be crapshoot > that threatened to wipe billions in bank assets. Uncle Sam to the rescue! I agree, Uncle Sam will come to the rescue. The problem is, who will be save? In both examples, it was the banking system that was at risk and was the reason for intervention. Naturally, some ordinary folk were also saved from loss, but this was not the driving force. In general, Republicans put their emphasis on big business with advantage to the ordinary person coming as a "trickle down". Until recent times, the Democrats tended to protect the ordinary folk from the big companies, favoring labor. In this manner, the two parties divided up the power structure. Now, both parties emphasize the role of corporations because the ordinary folk are too ignorant to properly protect themselves. Why else would the popularly of Reagan be so universal after he screwed so many of the nonrich? > > > I think it is fashionable to attack the government today, and to pretend > that we are rugged individualists, but it is just an act. Take your typical > Atlanta suburban government basher, who rails on about high taxes and > unfair restrictions. When something goes wrong -- our streets are blocked > with branches for a storm, or we need another $200 million bridge -- these > are the first people who howl for government largesse. As well they should. Government has a useful role and should be used to help the community, even if this means some will get more benefit than others. The problem comes when the government helps build a sports stadium, for example, or any other project that has has no long term benefit to the population except to make a few people rich. > No neighborhood has > more restrictive, intrusive local government red tape than a suburban gated > community. When someone tries to paint a mailbox an odd color, these people > call the police! In a recent case a neighborhood tried to impose a $6,000 > fine on a woman because she decorated her lawn with pink plastic flamingos. > They said she was lowering real estate values. This was in the heart of the > Republican Gingrich district. (Where I live, we are free to decorate with > plastic flamingos, a large plastic deer which I mistook for a real deer, or > cars jacked up on cinder blocks.) Once again, you can see the hypocrisy in the great cry of freedom heard from conservatives. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 14:50:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20820; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:47:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3A394E15.93A2E10A groupz.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:47:49 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eAamC3.0.E55.UuKEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is also the fact, that local people may not want the older machines to be changed...because they know all the tricks, on how to fix an election...using these machines.... Even going to electronic voting may not solve the fixing problem... one only has to consider the slot machines in Vegas...and all the ways that people have figured out how to beat them....they constantly have to upgrade/modify them to keep up with new tech/ideas....and they know pretty much immediately, when people are doing it...by using statistics...so they catch them and find out the methods pretty fast.... In the case of voting machines, it may take a long time, or forever before someone realizes what is happening.... Just some thoughts....steve opelc Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Peter van Noorden wrote: > > >I have watched the results of the president elections in the US with > >amazing. > >If such an situation would occur in the Netherlands then,just as you > >mentioned Jed, a committee would establish the rules for counting the > >ballots. > > No one is responsible. Every town, city or county decides for itself. > That's why there are no standards and so many different methods in use. The > system evolved slowly over time without much thought. No one is really to > blame for this mess. Close elections are rare, so the obsolete and > inaccurate equipment has not caused a major problem until now. It is human > nature not to fix a problem until it causes a crisis. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 15:14:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27449; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:10:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:10:11 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214171940.00c15468 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:08:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3A393654.CE564141 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214085453.00be0008 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oaOic1.0.ji6.IDLEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >No. not yet. However, we have 4 years to see the result of this drama. I can >not imagine how a weak and immature president, a Congress equally divided, a >self- serving Supreme Court, and an ignorant and divided electorate can solve >difficult problems. You would be surprised! When something awful happens, people pull together. In 1941 the country was so divided, the army was preserved by one vote in Congress. People feel no need to pay attention to politics at present. >Actually, one only needs to look to see the change in the number of homeless >people. In addition, all of the organizations that try to help this >problem are, >by their own admission, overwhelmed. The organizations are overwhelmed because other sources of support have been cut back. I am very sympathetic to this problem, and I donate money to the organizations. But I also keep up with social science and I do not think that has been in the major increase in the numbers. It is difficult to "look to see the change in the number of homeless." If you see more homeless people in a particular location, that could mean many different things: a national increase; a local increase; a crime wave or police crackdown in some other neighborhood that uproots homeless people. In general, homeless people and drug dealers like to be out in the open where they can be seen, because it's much safer for them. >Once again, I think you are missing the profound change that has occurred. Of >course thugs have always existed and guns are more easily acquired. >Nevertheless, when I grew up, even the idea of harming a teacher or killing a >student was completely foreign, even to thugs. In middle-class neighborhoods that was the case, but in slums and poor rural neighborhoods, violence was more common than it is today, particularly extortion and beating up students. They did not kill as often because it is much harder to kill with a switchblade than a gun. In the north and west it was mostly hoodlum violence like the kind described by Wilder. Here in the south schools, churches and other community gathering places were the target of political terror. > When killings occurred, the >reasons usually made sense. Of course, things were bad after the Civil >war, but >that was a previous cycle having no bearing on the present problem. Why no bearing? It is the same culture, language, religion, customs, and social problems. >On the other hand, I grew up in a typical middle class neighborhood. Killings >were rare and I knew of no student that was killed by another person. Count your blessings! But don't judge by your own experience; look at historical statistics. They're often inaccurate or suspect, but the numbers for homicide rates are probably correct, except that the authorities did not keep track of people killed in mass rioting. >Of course, things were much worse in previous cycles. However, this is small >comfort when a person is living at a time when the cycle is going down. I don't see things going down. Things were pretty awful when I lived in Washington, D.C. in 1968, with riots, large areas of the city on fire, troops occupying the city, curfews . . . And things were infinitely worse in 1939. It seems a lot better now. >For example, influential people see no harm in >making movies and video games that teach violence and antisocial behavior >in the >name of free speech, but actually because it makes money. They have always done that! Schlock violence comics, penny-dreadful novels and other violent media have always found a ready market in the U.S., England, Japan and every other country with a free press. In Japan, violence in comics and other media, and graphic portrayal of rape, murder and mayhem seems to be more common than in the U.S., but the crime rate is much lower. Evidently there is no simple causality between the portrayal of violence and the practice of it. > Many other examples >can be found of this self serving behavior. Where once greed would ruin a >town or >a region, now it can ruin an entire society. Greed destroyed entire civilizations in ancient times, and left deserts in parts of the world. It deforested Greece and Scotland. People have always had the ability to wreak damage over hundreds of miles, even with stone tools and fire. > I would hate to be raising my kids >at this time. Oh, it isn't so bad. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 15:44:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23283; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:29:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: <3A394E15.93A2E10A groupz.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"c_aPp2.0.hh5.fVLEw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: sno wrote: >There is also the fact, that local people may not want the older >machines to be changed...because they know all the tricks, on how >to fix an election...using these machines.... They also know how to PREVENT election fixing with these machines. Not all election officials are fools and knaves. My sister and other friends of mine are election officials, and they know what they are doing. By all accounts the low level officials & workers in Florida did a good job under very trying circumstances. Fixing elections is a lot harder than people seem to realize. There are many manual crosschecks and supervision at all stages by both political parties. The system has been in place for a long time. If there were widespread abuses, one party or the other would squawk. A lot of nonsense is a been trumpeted in the media about Democrats or Republicans surreptitiously punching holes or filling in absentee ballots. People should realize that in most of these procedures, an equal number of Democrats and Republicans stand and watch the proceedings at every stage. Yes, there may have been occasions in Florida in which absentee ballots were improperly filled out, or cards were mishandled or thrown around. These abuses may even have been enough to tip the balance, but such events are rare in most properly run districts. We need to improve the technology, but there are also valid arguments for sticking with what we have and what we know works, particularly in small communities. Changes must be made very cautiously. There is no guarantee that newer technology will make it harder to "fix" elections. In my opinion, any system that depends upon the Internet, for example, would be an open invitation to fraud. Any system which does not produce a paper trail would ill advised. People are reluctant to change traditions and technology in voting, transportation, medicine, construction, energy, computer hard disk manufacturing . . . And people are not fools. Change is essential but always dangerous. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 17:12:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30150; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:09:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:09:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:15:18 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Michael Johnston cc: h2opower , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere In-Reply-To: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hkyws2.0.0N7.JzMEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, What is the membrane from Dupont? Please On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Michael Johnston wrote: > Hi All, > Below is a little note I got from someone by way of someone else.... and I thought you might find it interesting. > MJ > P.S. All water has deutrium in it and it doesn't electrolyze so you end up with a concentration of it after a while when operating an electrolysis cell. One more little "bonus" from my idea. > > > Here is a little treatise on Hydrogen you might pass on the Mr. Johnston: > > > > In every gallon of sea water there is about 1/8 gram of Deuterium. You can > extract it with a DuPont membrane > > column for a cost of about 4 cents. If you burn it in any kind of break > even hot fusion reactor such as the > > Tokamak plasma reactor at Harvard it is equivalent to about 300 gallons of > gasoline. Now,--- if you make a > > quick calculation with the volume of the earth's oceans you come up with > an astounding thing, i.e. about > > 200,000,000,000 Kilowatt Years of electric energy at our present energy > rate! Indeed sunlight will put the > > Deuterium back in the sea water for you in about a week! I mean like tell > OPEC to kiss it! > > > > http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 17:17:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31471; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:14:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3970C0.74B4D406 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:15:44 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Murray: Milne: Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood 12.14.00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"65cI8.0.fh7.g1NEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Murray: Milne: Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood 12.14.00 Hello Vorts, I'm really grateful to Jed for this halarious spoof-- some of you may know that besides my lackluster efforts as an objective cold fusion critic, I have send hundreds of posts the last two years on issues of toxins and diet-- see the archives at http://www.eScribe.com/health/aspartameNM/ Laughing, Rich Murray Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood: a neurodevelopmental perspective on A.A. Milne Sarah E. Shea, Kevin Gordon, Ann Hawkins, Janet Kawchuk, Donna Smith CMAJ 2000;163(12):1557-9 http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-163/issue-12/1557.htm Abstract: Somewhere at the top of the Hundred Acre Wood a little boy and his bear play. On the surface it is an innocent world, but on closer examination by our group of experts we find a forest where neurodevelopmental and psychosocial problems go unrecognized and untreated. ********************************************************** Aspartame Toxicity 12.12.00: Trocho 6.26.98 Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 505-986-9103 505-920-6130 cell rmforall earthlink.net [B.A., M.I.T. 1964, M.A., Boston U. 1967: a layman committed to facilitating civil debate on aspartame toxicity] Aspartame (NutraSweet, Equal, Canderel, Benevia) is reported by scientific studies and case histories to be toxic: headaches; many body and joint pains (or burning, tingling, tremors, twitching, spasms, cramps, or numbness); "mind fog", "feel unreal", poor memory, confusion, anxiety, irritability, depression, mania, insomnia, dizziness, slurred speech, ringing in ears, sexual problems, nausea, seizures, poor vision, hearing, or taste; fever, fatigue; red face, itching, rashes, burning eyes or throat, dry mouth or eyes, mouth sores; hair loss; obesity, bloating, edema, poor or excessive hunger or thirst, anorexia; coldness; diarrhea or constipation; breathing problems; racing heart, high blood pressure, erratic blood sugar levels; sweating; birth defects; brain cancers; addiction. Users who quit often experience much immediate healing, but some symptoms may last for weeks. Heavy users may suffer weeks of painful withdrawal symptoms. Also avoid all forms of MSG (glutamate), legally mislabeled as "hydrolyzed vegetable protein" or even "natural flavoring". Actually, the safety of all chemical sweeteners is not proved. It's fun to mix club soda with juices. A long-used herbal sweetener, stevia, is entirely safe and widely available. A corrupt FDA has refused to attest its safety: www.holisticmed.com/sweet/stv-alert.txt http://www.dorway.com/stevia.html stevia, splenda, others Read all labels!-- aspartame is in almost all diet sodas; many drink mixes, instant breakfasts, cereals, cake mixes, yogurts, puddings, jellos, chewing gums, breath mints, candies, toothpastes, laxatives, cough syrups, even vitamins and medicines. Absorption through the skin in the mouth may be especially strong. Three careful double-blind experimental studies prove aspartame causes headaches: Koehler SM et al, 1988, Headache, 28(1), 10-14. Shirley Koehler, PhD 904-858-7651 skoehler brookshealth.org Walton RG et al, 1993, Biological Psychiatry, 34(1), 13-17. Prof. Ralph G. Walton 330-740-3621 rwalton193 aol.com Van Den Eeden SK et al, 1994, Neurology, 44, 1787-93. Steven K. Van Den Eeden, PhD 550-450-2202 skv dor.kaiser.org Woodrow C. Monte, Director, Food Science and Nutrition Laboratory 602-965-6938 Arizona State University woody.monte asu.edu "Aspartame: Methanol and the Public Health," 1984, J. Applied Nutrition, 36(1), 42-54 (62 references): The methanol from 2 L of diet soda, 5.6 12-oz cans, 20 mg/can, is 112 mg, 10% of the asp. The EPA limit for water is 7.8 mg daily for methanol (wood alcohol), a deadly cumulative poison. Many users drink 1-2 L daily. The reported symptoms are entirely consistent with chronic methanol toxicity. (Fresh orange juice has 34 mg/L, but, like all juices, has 16 times more ethanol, which strongly protects against methanol.) http://www.dorway.com/wmonte.txt A radioactive tracer study proves that the methanol from a low dose of aspartame binds formaldehyde, a deadly cumulative poison, into tissues: Trocho C et al, June 26 1998, Life Sci, 63(5), 337-349. http://www.presidiotex.com/barcelona/index.html Lennart Hardell, M.D., PhD, in 1999 reported in Sweden that both cell phone use and heavy aspartame use correlate with increased brain cancers: http://www.medscape.com/MedGenMed/braintumors lennart.hardell orebroll.se Who pays the piper, calls the tune. Ralph G. Walton, Prof. of Clinical Psychology, Northeastern Ohio Universities, Youngstown, OH 44501, 330-740-3621 rwalton193 aol.com , in an unpublished 66-page study (1998), listed 166 studies about aspartame and health. All 74 studies funded by the industry were favorable, whereas 84 of the 92 non-industry studies identified a problem. http:// www.dorway.com/peerrev.html Al Rietz http://www.aspartametruth.freeservers.com/personal.html For a typical example of disinformation, no author given: http://aspartame.findfacts.net/11-11.phtml "A Dozen Staight Answers about Aspartame Safety" , linked to http://www.nutrasweet.com/asp/lscmail.asp . To their credit, http://www.aspartame.org/critics.html Sites by Aspartame's Critics http://www.dorway.com/blayenn.html dodd netdoor.com Russell L. Blaylock, M.D. russell misnet.com 601-982-1175 "Excitotoxins, Neurodegeneration and Neurodevelopment" The Medical Sentinel Journal Fall, 1999, 95 references Aspartame Victims Support Group [>250] and Spanish articles and Spanish egroup: http://www.presidiotex.com/aspartame/ Aspartame Toxicity Information Center Mark D. Gold www.HolisticMed.com/aspartame 603-225-2100 "Scientific Abuse in Aspartame Research" http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/abuse/methanol.html mgold tiac.net 12 East Side Drive #2-18 Concord, NH 03301 Mission-Possible-USA Betty Martini 770-242-2599 http://www.dorway.com Bettym19 mindspring.com http://www.dorway.com/asprlink.html many world links http://www.dorway.com/nslawsuit.txt Jeff Martin, Attorney What many doctors are saying/have said about aspartame: http://www.dorway.com/doctors.txt Aspartame Consumer Safety Network 800-969-6050 214-352-4268 Mary Nash Stoddard marystod airmail.net "The Deadly Deception" http://web2.airmail.net/marystod/index.html http://web2.airmail.net/marystod/espanol.htm geoff.brewer clara.net United Kingdom Mission Possible Intern. 63 Downlands Road DEVIZES SN10 5EF Tel: 01380 728059 http://www.connectotel.com/missionpossible/ H.J. Roberts, M.D. hroberts pb.seflin.org 800-814-9800 Sunshine Sentinel Press 6708 Pamela Lane West Palm Beach, FL 33405 561-588-7628 See 5-page review: "Aspartame (NutraSweet) Addiction" Townsend Letters Jan 2000, http://www.dorway.com/tldaddic.html UPI reporter Gregory Gordon: 96K 3-part expose Oct 1987: http://www.dorway.com/upipart1.txt Cover story in The Northern California Bohemian [formerly Sonoma County Independent] by Bill Strubbe September 28-October 4, 2000: Sweet 'n' Deadly? Is aspartame killing dieters sweetly with its siren song? http://www.metroactive.com/sonoma/aspartame-0039.html editor bohemian.com 707-527-1200 Search medical reports: htp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed "The Dangers of Aspartame" discussion forum with many long reports with references: http://www.bevnet.com/bevboard/ For a searchable archive: http://www.eGroups.com/community/aspartameNM/ http://www.truthinlabeling.org/ Truth in Labeling Campaign [MSG] Adrienne Samuels, PnD P.O. Box 2532 Darien, Illinois 60561 858-481-9333 adandjack aol.com "The Toxicity/Safety of Processed Free Glutamic Acid (MSG): A Study in Suppression of Information." Accountability in Research (1999) Vol 6, pp. 259-310. Health Press hlthprs trail.com 505-474-0303 http://www.healthpress.com/in-bad-taste.html George R. Schwartz, M.D. drgschwartz yahoo.com "In Bad Taste: The MSG Symptom Complex" http://www.healingresearch.org/ Neuropoietin research The great health advantages of a no-fat vegetarian diet are well described by Dr. John A. McDougall at http://www.drmcdougall.com , which has copious scientific references and Net links, and at http://www.vegsource.com ******************************************************* Here is research in 1998 by C. Trocho et al, using a very low level of aspartame ingestion, 10 mg/kg, for rats, which have a much greater tolerance for aspartame than humans. So, the corresponding level for humans would be about 1 or 2 mg/kg. (Many headache studies in humans used doses of about 30 mg/kg daily.) This proves that aspartame causes binding of methanol's product, formaldehyde, a potent, cumulative toxin, into tissues. Life Sci June 26 1998; 63(5): 337-49 Full report: http://www.presidiotex.com/barcelona/index.html Formaldehyde derived from dietary aspartame binds to tissue components in vivo. Departament de Bioquimica i Biologia Molecular, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Spain. http://www.bq.ub.es/cindex.html Línies de Recerca: Toxicitat de l'aspartame http://www.bq.ub.es/grupno/grup-no.html Sra. Carme Trocho, Sra. Rosario Pardo, Dra. Immaculada Rafecas, Sr. Jordi Virgili, Dr. Xavier Remesar, Dr. Jose Antonio Fernandez-Lopez, Dr. Marià Alemany Fac. Biologia Tel.: (93)4021521, FAX: (93)4021559 alemany porthos.bio.ub.es bioq@sun.bq.ub.es josefer@porthos.bio.ub.es rafecas porthos.bio.ub.es remesar@porthos.bio.ub.es Sra. Carme Trocho Fac. Biologia Tel.: (93)4021544, FAX: (93)4021559 Abstract: Adult male rats were given an oral dose of 10 mg/kg aspartame, 14C-labeled in the methanol carbon. At timed intervals of up to 6 hours, the radioactivity in plasma and several organs was investigated. Most of the radioactivity found (>98% in plasma, >75% in liver) was bound to protein. Label present in liver, plasma and kidney was in the range of 1-2% of total radioactivity administered per g or mL, changing little with time. Other organs (brown and white adipose tissues, muscle, brain, cornea and retina) contained levels of label in the range of 1/12th to 1/10th of that of liver. In all ,the rats retained, 6 hours after administration, about 5% of the label, half of it in the liver. The specific radioactivity of tissue protein, RNA and DNA was quite uniform. The protein label was concentrated in amino acids, different from methionine, and largely coincident with the result of protein exposure to labeled formaldehyde. DNA radioactivity was essentially in a single different adduct base, different from the normal bases present in DNA. The nature of the tissue label accumulated was, thus, a direct consequence of formaldehyde binding to tissue structures. The administration of labeled aspartame to a group of cirrhotic rats resulted in comparable label retention by tissue components, which suggests that liver function (or its defect) has little effect on formaldehyde formation from aspartame and binding to biological components. The chronic treatment of a series of rats with 200 mg/kg of non-labeled aspartame during 10 days results in the accumulation of even more label when given the radioactive bolus, suggesting that the amount of formaldehyde adducts coming from aspartame in tissue proteins and nucleic acids may be cumulative. It is concluded that aspartame consumption may constitute a hazard because of its contribution to the formation of formaldehyde adducts. PMID: 9714421, UI: 98378223 ******************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 17:44:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06363; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:42:20 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:48:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "tp.sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Lynda Witz Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? In-Reply-To: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"59t1E.0.EZ1.xRNEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How does the Ox concentrator work? Membrane? Pump to liquify? who manufactures it? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 18:26:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16985; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:25:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:25:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A39815F.E184686C earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:26:39 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "tp.sparber" , Vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Murray: Sparber: formaldehyde toxicity 12.14.00 References: <002c01c0659c$2d7f60c0$b055143f computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FeLhy.0.J94.-3OEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Murray: Sparber: formaldehyde toxicity 12.14.00 Dec 14 2000 Hello Frederick Sparber, New carpet and particle board can both give off formaldehyde, an extremely toxic cumulative poison: do a Net search on it. The methanol component of aspartame partly converts to formaldehyde adducts to proteins and RNA in body cells, so watch out for all diet foods, because you may by now be hypersensitive to formaldehyde. Run an air inlet from outside to the Oxygen Concentrator. A simple, rapid assay on white blood cells for evidence of DNA damage from formaldehyde is available: the Comet assay. Organic vegetarian diet with no meats, eggs, or diary at all can reduce additional toxic insults. Many substances help detoxify and strengthen the body, such as grams daily of C and E. www.vegsource.com Good luck, Rich Murray "tp.sparber" wrote: > To Vortex: > > I've been signed off the Vortex-L List since becoming an extension > on the 47 foot hose of an Oxygen Concentrator. > > I quit smoking in 1987 when I noticed a bit of shortness of breath when > doing heavy work. This helped sustantially and there were no problems > until the fall of 1995, (8 years later) after having a bout with a respiratory > infection that > turned into "Walking Pneumonia". > > Since 1995 I've been using "Bronchial Dilators" of one type or another > to relieve the asthma-like "COPD" which I think translates to > Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease, which has no targeted cause > and little if any cure? > > Coincidentally in the summer of 1995 we had three large rooms > of new "static proof" carpeting installed which replaced the three > rooms of 501 Nylon that had seen 31 years of use. I haven't seen > any shocks from static electricity (Light Leptons?)since the new carpet > was installed. > > If this carpet was out-gassing during the summer of 1995 the 6,000 > CFM evaporative air conditioner would have rapidly removed the vapors. > > However, in the fall of 1995 when the air conditioner was off and the air > changes were infrequent and random, I developed "Walking Pneumonia" > and asthma-like COPD. > > I notice that when the room temperature gets above 70 F it seems that > there may be increased out-gassing of the carpeting/static-proof treatment. > > No problem, the Oxygen Concentrator picks up the vapors from > the carpet and concentrates them and blows them up my nose along > with the 97% O2. > > This is offset with a room humdifier that cranks 20 pounds of water vapor > into the house (about 1200 Lbs of air) every six hours. > > Again No Problem, the 1/4 horsepower 300 nanometer (and up) air filter > picks up the O2, water vapor, dustmites, and carpet/treatment out-gasses and > cleans them > so that they go into O2 concentrator, pure. > > Guess who recycles them at about $500.00/mo and up, in medical bills? > > Thoughts? > > Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 18:37:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19823; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:36:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3983FC.81A740CB earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:37:48 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: bionet.toxicology,sci.med.nutrition,alt.discuss.health.toxicity,sci.environment,uk.environment To: steve zoomnet.net, aspartameNM@egroups.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Ratliff: Murray: Toxins, toxins, everywhere 12.2.00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P9D_81.0.er4.1FOEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ratliff: Murray: toxins, toxins, everywhere 12.2.00 Forum: sci.bio.food-science Thread: Aspartame Toxicity 10.10.00: Trocho 6.26.98 Message 230 of 928 Subject: Re: Aspartame Toxicity 10.10.00: Trocho 6.26.98 Date: 12/02/2000 Author: Steve Ratliff On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 03:18:20 GMT, Rich Murray wrote: >Aspartame Toxicity 10.10.00: Trocho 6.26.98 > Toxins, toxins, everywhere, They're in the food we eat! They're floating in the air we breath, They're underneath our feet! That isn't really sugar, That makes your food taste sweet! Water, water, everywhere, And not a drop to drink. 'Cause it's full of fluoride, As it's flowing from your sink! Does monosodium glutamate, Really cause your feet to stink? The ozone layer's getting thin. And with it goes your hair. Can it be coincidence? It really isn't fair! Doesn't anybody listen? Doesn't anybody care? There's radon in your basement, Asbestos on the roof. There's mercury in the filling, That is sitting in your tooth! Hear me! Hear me! Everyone! I'm telling you the truth! The powerlines hum overhead. Lulling you to sleep. But they really turn your brains to mush, And out your ears they seep! Try not to let that bother you. While you're counting sheep! It's the additives that are in our foods. That are causing all our pain. 'Cause no one ever did get sick. Before damned aspartame! After all, there has to be, Something we can blame! ************************************ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 19:28:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA32255; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:27:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:27:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A394511.6461B69E groupz.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2@bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:26:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"qub723.0.vt7.S-OEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Unknown not the same as anomalous...???? > >Sure sound like can be used as synonyms to me.... >a anomalous effect, can be used to refer >to a unknown effect...or to a known effect, that >was not expected....can be used either way..... > >Check it out.... > >http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm > >steve opelc ***{Dictionaries provide a catalog of every sense in which a term is commonly used by educated people, and, sometimes, they add in a few usages employed by the ignorant. However, such a catalog is irrelevant to the present question, which is concerned with the usage of "anomalous" that has characterized this group, virtually since its inception. In point of fact, this group has never been focused on unanswered questions per se, but rather on that subset of unanswered questions for which enough data had been collected to provide a challenge to conventional science. If that qualifier were to be removed, the entire character of the group would change, because every experiment aims to answer an unanswered question, and if that effort constitutes an investigation of an "anomaly," as Vortexians have used that term, then any scientific experiment whatsoever would be on topic here. Let me emphasize, by the way, that I am *not* objecting to Jed having posted the stuff about the Mpemba effect, since there has been a lot of interesting stuff posted here that, technically, has been off-topic. My point is that there is nothing about the notion of warm water freezing faster than cold which flies in the face of conventional science, provided that "other things" are permitted to be unequal, and if Jed had stated at the beginning that this was his position, that would have been the end of it. However, instead, he quoted material that was worded in such a way as to suggest that it *was* a challenge to conventional science, and, when I raised that issue explicitly, Jed said: "Yo: Mitchell. We know conventional theory. Even I do. Do the experiment and you will find conventional theory does not apply." Well, then, you may ask, did Jed ever explicitly claim that, when other things are equal, hot water can freeze faster than cold? The answer is yes: MJ: "Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than cold water." JR: "Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the experiment kept coming out the other way." Bottom line: Jed's original position was precisely what I took it to be, and that fact was explicitly confirmed by his own words. Now, however, he has apparently realized that he went too far, and that such a position is untenable. Result: he is backing away from his original position, and implying that he was claiming hot water can freeze faster than cold only when, in some unknown respect, other things are not equal. Well, I agree with that, because it is what I have been saying from the beginning. It is not, however, what Jed was saying at the beginning. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> > >> >>***{If the samples cannot be equalized, then water is not one substance, >> >>but many. >> > >> ***{If that's what you had in mind, then why did you post the report to >> this group? The world is awash with reports of phenomena that arise due to >> unknown causes. "Unknown" is not the same as "anomalous." There is no basis >> for assuming that, when the differences between the "cold water that >> freezes faster" and the "warm water that freezes slower" are identified, >> the explanation will lie outside of conventional science. It is only when >> an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with >> conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to this >> group. --MJ}*** >> >> > >> >- Jed >> >> ________________ >> Quote of the month: >> >> "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that >> voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in >> precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 19:51:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05654; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:49:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:49:23 -0800 Message-ID: <00cf01c0664b$a16f9a40$9778add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: References: <013601c0652c$56ab30c0$9778add1 mikejohnston> Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:00:57 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LYuRT.0.BO1.2JPEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin, I don't know actually but the guy who wrote that is some kind of scientist who has been commenting on that last paper I did through the proxy of an author friend of mine. I haven't actually written to him directly. MJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:56 PM Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere > In reply to Michael Johnston's message of Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:44:24 -0500: > [snip] > >rate! Indeed sunlight will put the > >> Deuterium back in the sea water for you in about a week! I mean like tell > >OPEC to kiss it! > [snip] > That's what hot fusion scientists have been trying to do for the last 50 > years. BTW perhaps you can enquire as to how sunlight is supposed to "put it > back"? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 14 20:30:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14677; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:27:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:27:12 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 04:14:19 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA14636 Resent-Message-ID: <"0MFct3.0.Db3.WsPEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:29:12 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >We need to improve the technology, but there are also valid arguments for >sticking with what we have and what we know works, particularly in small >communities. Changes must be made very cautiously. There is no guarantee >that newer technology will make it harder to "fix" elections. In my >opinion, any system that depends upon the Internet, for example, would be >an open invitation to fraud. Any system which does not produce a paper >trail would ill advised. You're a computer engineer or something like that, as I recall. Just about the best computer voting design I've seen calls for the votes to be tabulated and publicly listed. That is, every choice of every voter will be listed somewhere -- probably on the 'net, but they could be published in newspapers, etc. However, the voting will still be secret. Each voter will receive a copy of how they voted (printed out locally) and their votes will be published by being associated with a code number. The code number will identify the polling place and then have a non-duplicated (pseudo) random number. Every voter will be able to check the accuracy of their ballot selections in the published tabulation by matching the list entry to the code number on their copy of the ballot. (Of course, if they're paranoid, there could be an option to not print the ballot selections on the paper, just the code number.) This method will virtually guarantee that each vote will be counted. Of course, I don't know of any system that will prevent "extra" votes from entering the voting tabulation (no matter what voting system is used). That's the major problem with secret ballots. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 02:11:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13179; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 02:10:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 02:10:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001215180744.00b5d100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:07:44 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213161833.02000308 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EFuDP2.0.nD3.juUEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > >It's all from standard Maxwell eqns + the definition of the >potentials. Variations in phi are possible without any E at all. This >follows from the definitions of phi (the scalar potential) and A (the >vector potential) > > E = - DEL(phi) - A/@t > > B = DEL X A > >The first eqn, with E = 0 says we can have a situation in which: > > DEL (phi) = - A/@t > >And that's how they are related in the proposed A-phi wave. The A in the >A-phi wave also has no curl (it always points in the direction of >propagation) so there's no B either. Yes you are right! I hadn't visualised that one before. That has given me some good food for thought and correction for my intuition. Incidentally, if you read Feynman he points out that there is no certainty at all for Poyntings formula being the correct expression for radiation energy flow and that there are many other candidates. (The main reason for choosing Poynting's is that it is the simplest). So it may be the case that some alternate expression is the correct one and the new expression allows energy and power to be present in the A-phi wave. Are you aware of any papers discussing the topic of A-phi waves ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 04:07:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA30577; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 04:03:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 04:03:52 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 06:04:08 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20001215180744.00b5d100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001215055738.021320a0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213161833.02000308 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"pe3332.0.aT7.dYWEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:07 PM 12/15/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: >Incidentally, if you read Feynman he points out that there is no >certainty at all for Poyntings formula being the correct expression >for radiation energy flow and that there are many other candidates. Can you give me the Vol & page for that, John. I'm always amazed at what you can dig up out of Feynman...and this could be very important. > Are you aware of any papers discussing the topic >of A-phi waves ? Here's the U.S. Patent page: http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=pall&s1=puthoff.INZZ.&OS=IN/puthoff&RS=IN/puthoff If that doesn't fly, then just search for US patent # 5,845,220. Puthoff is listed as INVENTOR. In the patent references, there's a paper by R. C. Gelinas, "Curl-Free Vector Potential Effects in a Simply Connected Space", 1986, International Tesla Society, pp 4-43, 4-60. I don't know of any mainstream journal papers... Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:13:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24194; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:12:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:12:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215101033.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:02:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"gSZvF3.0.xv5.YBaEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >You're a computer engineer or something like that, as I recall. Grunt programmer. Old school batch applications. >Just about the best computer voting design I've seen calls for the >votes to be tabulated and publicly listed. That is, every choice of >every voter will be listed somewhere -- probably on the 'net, but they >could be published in newspapers, etc. > >However, the voting will still be secret. Each voter will receive a >copy of how they voted (printed out locally) and their votes will be >published by being associated with a code number. I was going to mention this scheme to Mitchell Jones, who favors open (non-secret) voting. This accomplishes the same thing. There is some merit to that idea, but some danger as well. It might help avoid fraud, but the danger is that someone might get hold of the master list, and find out which name is associated with which number. The data would not fit in a newspaper in most districts. >This method will virtually guarantee that each vote will be counted. >Of course, I don't know of any system that will prevent "extra" votes >from entering the voting tabulation (no matter what voting system is >used). That's the major problem with secret ballots. This method would help with the "extra" vote problem too. You could download the entire data set and count the votes yourself. Someone might add bogus serial numbers associated with fake votes, but perhaps they would be recognizable. You could make the highest serial number equal the total number of registered voters, so that any fake serial number higher than that would be recognizable. The only way to cheat would be to post an unused serial number with a fake ballot, from a voter who registered but did not show up at the polls. A person who did not vote, but who saw his own secret number used would know there is hanky-panky going on. Here is something I would be anxious to avoid with any voting technology: a unified, standard, nationwide system based upon one particular general purpose computer and software type. It seems likely it would end up boing the the most commonly used operating system, which is Windows 98. This software is impenetrable, uncontrolled, and grossly unreliable. A voting system that depends upon it would invite chaos much worse than the Florida brouhaha. Essentially, we would be entrusting democracy to the tender mercies of William Gates III, or to some lunatic computer virus programmer in Hoboken. There is a lot to be said for nonstandard local systems based on hundreds of different technologies. In nature you would call that biodiversity. One computer virus cannot infect all voting systems. Some voting machines commonly sold in the 1970s were based upon Data General Nova computers. According to a New Yorker article written at the time, they were wide open to fraud. This does not surprise me. I was programming them at the time. They were multitasking and there was absolutely no memory protection. Any programmer could log onto a terminal or modem connection, and examine and change any byte in memory, leaving no trace. Since there was only 16 to 64 KB of memory, it was easy to locate a memory location with a specific number, such as the totals for today's election. You could stuff a new number in with a ten line program written in Business BASIC. It was also easy to have the main program surreptitiously dispatch a new process which would run in the background, perform some action, and then disappear. This was a wonderful machine in many ways. It was easy to program and much more reliable than today's PCs, but it was a terrible choice for counting votes. When I read that it was being used for that purpose, I was shocked. The machines I worked with were locked in accounting departments and well guarded, but there was legitimate concern about accounting controls, that is, computer literate employees stealing money. The New Yorker alleged that the company which supplied most of DG Nova voting software was run by an extremist right wing Republican, and there were supposedly cases in which close elections were changed by people calling and over the modem and dealing with memory locations. Any programmer familiar with the machine could have done that easily. Nowadays there are tightened standards for software transparency and computer security in voting machines. I have heard that the manufacturers and state elections commissions get together periodically to hash out these issues. Any new voting machines would have to be exhaustively tested by groups of experts from government agencies, political parties, trade groups and trade magazine testing laboratories, and any group of private citizens who wishes to test the machine. Machines must be made available to private groups for testing, just as Florida's used ballots are available to the press or any interested party. I would advocate using a very simple special-purpose processor, in a specialized machine somewhat like an ATM (Automatic Teller Machines - cash machines). You might use an early generation Intel processors, a Z-80, or one of these processors for video games. I would write the program in the simplest, shortest code, with no special features or multitasking. I would publish the code entirely on the Internet. Let every interested programmer in the world look for potential bugs and trapdoors. This is how the Linux has been developed into a robust and reliable system. The machine output can be piped simultaneously to general purpose computers owned by the voting commission, poll watchers from major parties, the press, and the public via the Internet. The press and parties can tally the data themselves and build all the features they want in their own computers. I saw some ATM software not long ago that was similar to what I describe. If we can build reliable ATMs that never lose track of the money, I'm sure we can make simple and reliable voting machines, but the job must be done slowly and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 08:50:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04887; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:48:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:48:46 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215113548.00c01bb8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:48:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3A393D92.F24B4741 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214111702.00c3fec0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_idsC.0.HC1.jjaEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > > In a crisis, people suddenly learn to love the government. If there is a > > debt crisis these people will demand -- and get -- swift and decisive > > government action. Look what happened when the S&Ls collapsed, or in 1998 > > when the "Long Term Capital Management" fund turned out to be crapshoot > > that threatened to wipe billions in bank assets. Uncle Sam to the rescue! > >I agree, Uncle Sam will come to the rescue. The problem is, who will be >save? In both examples, it was the banking system that was at risk and was >the reason for intervention. Naturally, some ordinary folk were also saved >from loss, but this was not the driving force. Actually, to give credit where it is due (literally), in the cases I am familiar with here in Atlanta, all the money went to the ordinary folks who had deposits in the S&Ls. No money went to S&L owners or stockholders, who were wiped out. There may have been unscrupulous owners elsewhere, especially in Texas where the worst abuses occurred, who managed to bring home some of the government money. Perhaps they held deposits in their own banks. I do not know the details. Many responsible, established S&Ls were not at fault, but they were destroyed anyway. One bankrupt owner said it was like trying to run a legitimate car dealership when another dealer opens up down the road and starts handing out automobiles for free. One issue that was never discussed is the fact that in many cases the government paid out far more than the $100,000 guaranteed limit per depositor. Following the letter of the law, people who deposited $1 million should have only got back $100,000, but I believe in all cases all depositors got back every dollar. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:07:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09335; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:05:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:05:33 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01c066d2$d1afd260$1d79ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop. mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001215101033.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:07:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"A3RA51.0.jH2.TzaEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed's message: > Dean T. Miller wrote: > > >You're a computer engineer or something like that, as I recall. > > Grunt programmer. Old school batch applications. > > > >Just about the best computer voting design I've seen calls for the > >votes to be tabulated and publicly listed. That is, every choice of > >every voter will be listed somewhere -- probably on the 'net, but they > >could be published in newspapers, etc. > > > >However, the voting will still be secret. Each voter will receive a > >copy of how they voted (printed out locally) and their votes will be > >published by being associated with a code number. > > I was going to mention this scheme to Mitchell Jones, who favors open > (non-secret) voting. This accomplishes the same thing. There is some merit > to that idea, but some danger as well. It might help avoid fraud, but the > danger is that someone might get hold of the master list, and find out > which name is associated with which number. > > The data would not fit in a newspaper in most districts. > > > >This method will virtually guarantee that each vote will be counted. > >Of course, I don't know of any system that will prevent "extra" votes > >from entering the voting tabulation (no matter what voting system is > >used). That's the major problem with secret ballots. I voted on an electronic machine in the last election. I signed a register, where my new signature was compared with one on the voting registration. I was given a numbered slip authorizing me access to the voting machine. That slip was threaded onto a string by the guardian of the machine. I found a touch screen (not CRT) with the ballot on it. Finger pressure caused green X's to acknowledge my choice and an Enter button counted the choises, extinguished the lamps, and opened the curtain. No opportunity for an extra vote without the collusion of the local watchers of the polls. > > This method would help with the "extra" vote problem too. You could > download the entire data set and count the votes yourself. Someone might > add bogus serial numbers associated with fake votes, but perhaps they would > be recognizable. You could make the highest serial number equal the total > number of registered voters, so that any fake serial number higher than > that would be recognizable. The only way to cheat would be to post an > unused serial number with a fake ballot, from a voter who registered but > did not show up at the polls. A person who did not vote, but who saw his > own secret number used would know there is hanky-panky going on. > > Here is something I would be anxious to avoid with any voting technology: a > unified, standard, nationwide system based upon one particular general > purpose computer and software type. It seems likely it would end up boing > the the most commonly used operating system, which is Windows 98. This > software is impenetrable, uncontrolled, and grossly unreliable. A voting > system that depends upon it would invite chaos much worse than the Florida > brouhaha. Essentially, we would be entrusting democracy to the tender > mercies of William Gates III, or to some lunatic computer virus programmer > in Hoboken. There is a lot to be said for nonstandard local systems based > on hundreds of different technologies. In nature you would call that > biodiversity. One computer virus cannot infect all voting systems. > > Some voting machines commonly sold in the 1970s were based upon Data > General Nova computers. According to a New Yorker article written at the > time, they were wide open to fraud. This does not surprise me. I was > programming them at the time. They were multitasking and there was > absolutely no memory protection. Any programmer could log onto a terminal > or modem connection, and examine and change any byte in memory, leaving no > trace. Since there was only 16 to 64 KB of memory, it was easy to locate a > memory location with a specific number, such as the totals for today's > election. You could stuff a new number in with a ten line program written > in Business BASIC. It was also easy to have the main program > surreptitiously dispatch a new process which would run in the background, > perform some action, and then disappear. > > This was a wonderful machine in many ways. It was easy to program and much > more reliable than today's PCs, but it was a terrible choice for counting > votes. When I read that it was being used for that purpose, I was shocked. > The machines I worked with were locked in accounting departments and well > guarded, but there was legitimate concern about accounting controls, that > is, computer literate employees stealing money. The New Yorker alleged that > the company which supplied most of DG Nova voting software was run by an > extremist right wing Republican, and there were supposedly cases in which > close elections were changed by people calling and over the modem and > dealing with memory locations. Any programmer familiar with the machine > could have done that easily. > > Nowadays there are tightened standards for software transparency and > computer security in voting machines. I have heard that the manufacturers > and state elections commissions get together periodically to hash out these > issues. > > Any new voting machines would have to be exhaustively tested by groups of > experts from government agencies, political parties, trade groups and trade > magazine testing laboratories, and any group of private citizens who wishes > to test the machine. Machines must be made available to private groups for > testing, just as Florida's used ballots are available to the press or any > interested party. I would advocate using a very simple special-purpose > processor, in a specialized machine somewhat like an ATM (Automatic Teller > Machines - cash machines). You might use an early generation Intel > processors, a Z-80, or one of these processors for video games. Z-80s are in the right ballpark. No operating system. Code run by a burnt-in PROM, certified by people with know-how from publicly picked-over code. Results burnt sequentially into another PROM, to be removed under supervision and read by a standard reader with a transparent code. PROMS can be gathered by armed courier and taken to central location where they are read out and printed by elementary machinery. No need for modems, operating systems, multitaksing programs or any of the many ways for cloaked mischief. > > I saw some ATM software not long ago that was similar to what I describe. > If we can build reliable ATMs that never lose track of the money, I'm sure > we can make simple and reliable voting machines, but the job must be done > slowly and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. > > - Jed Right on. Think long, code short. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:14:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10780; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:10:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:10:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:06:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Resent-Message-ID: <"k51x92.0.Me2.x1bEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Hi Hamdi. I just now got around to reading this post, due to other distractions. My comments are inserted below. --MJ}*** >Hi, > >It is often said that experiment having overunity characteristics have >difficulty >on running closed loop, self sustaining. > >There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a >device >appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on >experiments producing directly electrical output. ***{In other words, you are talking about devices that run off of electrical power input, and produce electrical power output, right? --MJ}*** > >I categorize these reasons as conventional and non conventional. Conventional >mean understand by classical electrical / electromagnetic theories. Non >conventional >explanations would be either in the quantum physics, or need "new physics". >By new physics, I mean unknown phenomena are producing anomalous >measurements, results. >New physics would not be necessary violation of laws, but anything is not >covered >by mostly referred theories. > >A) Conventional causes preventing closed loop, self sustaining operations: > > 1) Output power load element is the critical part of the circuit, modifying > its characteristics destroy the phenomenon. Characteristics of the >load element > would not merely defined by I-V (impedance). ***{It seems to me that you are not merely saying that the element producing the output power is critical to the over-unity operation of the circuit, but also that any attempt to massage the electrical output so that it assumes the same characteristics (voltage, frequency, waveform, etc.) as the input will produce feedback that will interfere with the over unity operation. I say that because, technically, all that is required to "close-loop" an OU device is (a) to massage the output into the form of the input, and then (b) to connect the output back to the input. Thus the only thing that can prevent closed-looping, if the device really is over unity, is failure to control feedback from the transformer/regulator circuitry which is attached to the output side of the system. But is this not a relatively trivial problem, given large OU numbers? (E.g., 10 to 1 as reported by Bearden.) Surely it ought to be possible to isolate the OU device, so that it literally couldn't tell what was connected to it on the output side! --MJ}*** > > 2) Load element is floating, it is not possible simply to couple it to other > circuits or to other part of the circuit. ***{By the "load element," you apparently are referring to the OU device itself, and you are saying that it may function only when neither side of its internal circuitry is connected to ground. Even for a high-voltage device, however, electrical isolation from ground is generally possible. A Vandegraaff generator, for example, can float if the electric motor that drives the belt runs off of battery power or some other isolated energy source. And even if the motor is plugged into the wall socket, deliberate steps can be taken to isolate the motor from the source of static electrons at the bottom of the belt drive. (The motor shaft might be very long and made of an insulating material, and the generator assembly might be sitting on a thick plastic platform, for example.) Similar considerations apply to high-voltage OU devices: to prevent arcing, the entire circuit can be designed to run off of electrical sources (e.g., batteries) isolated from ground, and hence from the grid. Alternatively, if the device is plugged into the wall socket, then mechanical inputs (e.g., the torque from a rotating shaft, magnetic flux reversals within a transformer, etc.) can be substituted for the direct electrical connections. The simplest isolation technique, in my view, would be to simply use 1:1 transformers on both sides of the circuit. The result is a floating OU device that is mechanically isolated from all disruptive interference. A 1:1 transformer on the input side would provide 120 volt input isolated from the grid, and a 1:1 transformer on the output side would provide a power output that could be tapped and utilized without electrical feedback to the OU device. Using the power, of course, would affect the source of the power--the OU device--by causing it to lose energy, but if that fact alone were sufficient to prevent the device from operating, then it wouldn't really be an OU device: excess power that is not usable, practically speaking, is not true excess power. --Mitchell Jones}*** Even the power signal appears > suitable to conversion (i.e. by diodes or transformer), the full signal > may have other components, vital for the device work, (i.e. hf) which are > altered by conversion elements, thus ceasing the device works or >leave the > regime. ***{If 1:1 transformers were used on both the input and output sides of the device, what sort of disruptive feedback would remain? None leaps to my mind. Thus I don't see what would prevent a device that really had a COP of 10, as Tom Bearden claims, from being run in a closed loop configuration. Result: I am inclined to agree with those who insist on such a demonstration--for devices that use electrical input and produce electrical output, at any rate. --MJ}*** > > 3) Interference. Any kind of interference, electrical, magnetic, >electromagnetic, > from the device or from the environment, from the measurement >circuits, affect > the regime, or destroy the effect. Self interference may also occurs >when tried > to make a closed loop. ***{Isolation via 1:1 transformers would preclude electrical interference; and since a transformer is a passive device which follows the lead of the power source, it would produce no magnetic or electromagnetic interference. Result: all that would remain would be magnetic or electromagnetic interference from whatever device was connected to the output side of the system, or from other devices in the immediate vicinity. However, since such devices could be moved to another room (or a mile away, for that matter), it seems like a large stretch to expect trouble from such sources. Basically, it looks to me like solving the isolation problem is a no-brainer--which means: failure to close-loop a purely electrical OU device gives strong grounds for doubting that the device really *is* OU. --MJ}*** > > 4) Not-so-obvious unsuitable measurement conditions may lead erroneous >measurement, > appearing as overunity. Change of load impedance would be a common cause. > Consider a situation of superimposed signal having frequency or >amplitude out > of range of measurement equipment is present on the load element. It >may possible > this signal cause nonlinerarity on load or on measurement devices. > [snip] > >It is very bad idea to try to modify extend a device for self sustaining >operation before >energies are measured by calorimetric methods. Calorimetry would be more >safer than >electrical measurements, IMO. Anyway, if the produced energy is usable, it >would not be >hard to find a method to convert to heat. ***{This seems totally wrong to me. Calorimetry is very complicated, and vast numbers of things can go wrong. Result: disputes about whether OU has been proven by calorimetry can go on for years, as has been demonstrated in this and other groups, in spades. In cases where purely electrical devices are being considered, and the measurements of input and output power suggest large OU numbers, closed looping strikes me as the obvious way to go, if the developer of the device really believes the numbers he is quoting. --MJ}*** >Conclusion: > Don't blame self-sustaining failures. Blame those who don't try >calorimetry. ***{Again, in the case of purely electrical devices where large OU's are claimed, I disagree. --MJ}*** >Note: > It would be possible to build a self sustaining device but in OPEN LOOP >to avoid > interference by using cycling (manually) batteries between input and output. > > Anybody is against this operation would be considered as self sustaining? ***{If a device runs off of batteries, and charges more batteries than it needs to run, that is a form of closed-loop operation. --MJ}*** > >Regards, >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:26:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15329; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:23:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:23:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3A68E0.CBBF65E7 gte.net> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:54:49 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Santilli hadronic reactors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PuVv01.0.Pl3.EEbEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Thanks for the numerous questions on Santilli’s hadronic reactors we have received by phone, via vortex and via our web site. Here are a few introductory comments that may be helpful to all open minds of any age. BACKGROUND. The research leading to the hadronic reactors was initiated by Dr. Santilli at Harvard University in the early 1980s under five DOE contracts. The research was then continued at the Institute for Basic Research, and completed with financial support by U. S. corporations (the public companies Toups Technologies, Inc and EarthFirst Technology, Inc have invested several million dollars - I hope this makes you understand the credibility here). Dr. Santilli’s curriculum can be seen at http://www.magnegas.com/ir00021.htm NEW MATHEMATICS. Dr. Santilli defines as “new” only those forms of energy which CANNOT be predicted and treated via quantum mechanics. The task from the DOE contracts was to build a generalization of quantum mechanics he called “hadronic mechanics” because intended to provide new structure models of hadrons and their aggregates, such as in nuclei, as an evident pre-requisite for truly new energies. However, there cannot be really new physics without really new math. For this reason, Dr. Santilli first build a generalization of conventional mathematics based on the lifting of the unit, from the value +1 dating back to biblical times all of you use, to the most general possible nonlinear, nxn-dimensional, integro-differential operator +1 -> E(r, p, psi, delta (psi), etc.) = 1 / T(r, p, psi, delta(psi), etc.) Products are then lifted from the conventional product AxB you are using as studied in high school to a product which is still associative, yet less trivial (the isoproduct) admitting E as the left and right unit AxB -> A*B = AxTxB, E*A = A*E = A Then, numbers, spaces, geometries, algebras, etc. have then be reconstructed in such a way to admit E and not the old-decrepit +1 as the correct left and right unit at all levels (if you use the old decrepit sinus, cosine, exp., log. etc. etc. on this field you are trashed out). To study the new math you may inspect the following memoir published in a refereed math journal R. M. Santilli, Rendiconti Circolo Matematico Palermo, Suppl. Vol. 42, 1996. A readable presentation of the new math is also available at http://www.i-b-r.org/ir00018.htm NEW MECHANICS. Hadronic mechanics is the image of quantum mechanics under Santilli’s new isomathematics. For instance, Schroedinger and Heisenberg equations assume the generalized forms i(D/Dt)|*> = H*|*> = HxTx|*> = Ex|*> idA/dt = A*H - H*A = AxTxH - HxTxA. All conventional formulations of QM are then lifted accordingly. The above new math and physics have been studied by a large number of mathematicians, theoreticians and experimentalists over the past two decades, resulting in about 10,000 pages of research published in refereed technical journals, which includes about 1,000 technical papers, 15 post Ph.D. monographs, 50 volumes of conference proceedings, etc.. Recent presentations of hadronic mechanics are given by R. M. Santilli, Found. P:hys. Vol. 27, 625, (1997); andVol. 27, p. 1159 (1997) “Elements of Hadronic Mechanics”, Vol. I and II, 1995 (2-nd edition) and III (in preparation), Ukraine Academy of Sciences, Kiev (distributed in the USA by Hadronic Press). Hadronic mechanics has today a large number of EXPERIMENTAL VERIFICATIONS, of course, when applicable (which is when new effects are expected at distances of 1 fm, otherwise QM is assumed as exact), in particle physics, nuclear physics, molecular physics, superconductivity, astrophisics, biology and cosmology. See, e.g., the review intended for a general audience R. M. Santilli, J,. New Energy, Vol. 4, issue 1 (pages 7-318) (1998). WHY NEW MATH AND MECHANICS? Forget the professor at Princeton etc. and go to the Founders. Lagrange and Hamilton stated that physical reality admit TWO types of forces or interactions, the action-a-a-distance interactions derivable from a potential (electric, magnetic gravitational etc.) and the contact interactions which have zero-range, and, therefore, cannot be derived from a potential. They represented the former with a Hamiltonian or a Lagrangian and the latter with external terms in their analytic equations. The external terms later proved to kill the INVARIANCE enjoyed by the analytic equations without external terms, thus resulting in a theory without physical meaning (because noninvariant theories have no invariant units of measurements, predict different numerical values for the same quantity under the same conditions at different times, have no observables, violate causality, etc.). Dr. Santilli resolved this historical impasse by representing nonpotential interactions with a generalization of the unit. Invariance is then assumed in hadronic mechanics because, whether generalized or not, the unit is the basic invariant of any theory. Today, hadronic mechanics is the ONLY generalization of quantum mechanics which is invariant. ALL other generalizations have been proved to haver catastrophic inconsistencies. You pick which way to go. Moreover, hadronic mechanics has been proved to be “directly universal”, that is, capable of representing ALL possible interactions of linear and nonlinear, local and nonlocal, potential and nonpotential type (universality) in the frame of the observer (direct universality), as you can see from the universality of the isoeigenvalue equations H*|*> = HxTx|*> = H(r, p)xT(r, p, psi, delta(psi)....)x|*> = Ex|*>, HxT /= (HxT)^+ For a comprehensive study of invariant requirements, the large literature in the field, and the catastrophic physical and mathematical inconsistencies which result in its absence, you may study R. M. Santilli, Intern. J. Modern Phys. A Vol. 14, 3157 (1999) WHAT’S IN ALL THIS FOR NEW ENERGIES? The original DOE contracts at Harvard were specifically conceived to study “new” energies. Here is the point. ALL energies studied in the 20-th century were solely based on POTENTIAL interactions acting at a distance. However, it is well known that contact interactions among particles (e.,g., deep overlappings of the wavepackets of particles) imply new effects. The new hadronic mechanics and its new math predict “new” energies based on contact nonpotential effects which are outside any dream of study with QM. Stated in a nutshell, hadronic mechanics is the ONLY generalization of QM for the study of NEW energy which is axiomatically correct, invariant and proved by a large volume of experimental evidence. You use another mechanics, you may be doing excellent work, but one which belongs to .... the past millennium. WHAT’S THE MEAN MECHANISM FOR NEW ENERGIES? It turned out that the new contact interactions are so attractive to overcome repulsive Coulomb forces, thus permitting the bonding of states with the same charge. This basic principle of HM has been able to provide a rigorous and invariant representation of the bonding of two identical electrons as occurring in the helium the Cooper pair in superconductivity, valence bonds, etc. Then, QM PROHIBITS low energy nuclear transmutations (LENT), while HM does indeed admit them, because, when two nuclei pass the hadronic horizon, the attractive hadronic force becomes dominant over the repulsive Coulomb force, and you have indeed LENT. HADRONIC SUPERCONDUCTIVITY QM can only describe an ENSEMBLE of Cooper pairs each assumed to be point-=like. For this limitation, hadronic superconductivity has been built. It has provided the very first structural representation of ONE cooper pair (bonding of identical electrons in singlet couplings) which is in remarkable agreement with experimental evidence. In addition, hadronic superconductivity predicts A NEW TYPE OF ELECTRIC CURRENT, that made up of COUPLED PAIRS of electrons (rather than individual electrons) with consequential collapse of the resistance (because singlet couplings of electron pairs do not have an magnetic field as existing in individual electrons). You may inspect one publication in A. O. E. Animalu and R. M. Santilli, Intern. J. Quantum Chemistry Vol. 29, 175 (1995). HADRONIC CHEMISTRY. Despite undeniable advances, quantum chemistry is, by far,m the most insufficient discipline of the 20-th century because: 1) Quantum chemistry lacks of a truly attractive bond in molecular structures (since the average of all admitted forces is identically null); 2) Quantum chemistry admits an arbitrary number of atoms in the hydrogen and water molecules (since chemists used forces -such as exchange and van der Waals forces - which were conceived in nuclear physics under the condition of holding for an arbitrary number of constituents); 3) Quantum chemistry misses the representation of 2% of molecular binding energies which implies errors in thermochemical calculations about twenty times the value to be computed (since 2% of the molecular binding energy is about 1,000 Kcal.mole, while an average chemical reaction implies about 50 Kcal/mole); 4) There is a real scientific scheme going on in quantum chemistry in claiming exact quantum representation of molecular data via variational models with a large number of completely unknown parameters (since it can be easily proved that the variational wavefunction cannot be a solution of the exact Schroedinger equation, since the latter fails to be exact, in which case the ad hoc parameters are precisely a measure of the deviations of quantum chemistry from experimental data); 5) Quantum chemistry admits the catastrophic prediction that all molecules are ferromagnetic (because of the believed independence of individual atoms following to lack of a real bond, under which conditions all atoms of any given molecule acquire the same magnetic polarity under an external magnetic field, thus resulting in a total net magnetic polarity for all molecules). Hadronic chemistry has been built successfully to resolve all this nonsense, by achieving the first representation of molecular features from first unadulterated principles which is exact to the seventh digit (sic). This wAs possible only after achieving a NEW STRUCTURE MODEL OF MOLECULES in which two identical; valence electrons do indeed bond to each other, that is, they have an explicit and concrete ATTRACTIVE force simply nonexistent in current molecular models. See R. M. Santilli and D. D. Shillady, Intern. J. Hydrogen Energy Vol. 24, 943 (1999); and Vol. 25, 173 (2000) After, and only after achieving a new new structure model of molecules with credible features, Dr. Santilli was able to predict and verify experimentally his new chemical species of “magnecules”, which consists of stable clusters of individual atoms (sic), dimers (sic) and ordinary molecules in macroscopic percentages (no fancy ppm) which remain unidentified in the GC-M for gases or LC-MS for liquids following a computer search among all known molecules, and, in additional, they have no IR signature at all, except that of their much lighter constituents. The name “magnecules” was selected because of incontrovertible evidence that they are created under a suitable magnetic field at gaseous, liquid and solid states. The lack of Ir signature establishes that the bond of magnecules cannot be of valence type. Dr. Santilli submitted the hypothesis that the bond originates from the magnetic polarization of the orbits of at least the valence electrons which is about 1500 times bigger than nuclear magnetic fields. Contributions from the magnetic fields of orbiting electrons are generally ignored because they must be coupled in singlet from Pauli’s principle, thus annulling each other magnetic field. This new chemical species of magnecules has permitted a momentous advance in new fuels which avoid the current catastrophic environmental problems, and have an energy content about three times that predicted by the old chemistry of the past millennium (because new bonds are new storage of energy). see R. M. Santilli, “Foundations of Hadronic Chemistry with Applications to New Clean Energies and Fuels”, in press at a leading Publisher. WHAT TYPES OF NEW ENERGIES ARE PREDICTED BY HM? After working out new structure models of hadrons, nuclei, and molecules, the following three classes of new energies have been identified: # New Energies of Class I, occurring at the particle level, the most important being Dr. Santilli proposal to utilize the large clean energy in the structure of the neutron; # New energies of Class II, those at the nuclear level with contributions from Class I,. HM predicts MANY of these new energies, all clean. Most notable is the synthesis of nitrogen from deuterium and carbon as predicted in lighting. # New energies of Class III, those at the molecular levels with contributions from classes II and I. The best example is given by the hadronic reactors, see http://www.santillimagnegas.com An important point is that the mechanisms for all these new energies is the same: use of nonpotential interactions to trigger the transition from one bound state to another with smaller energy. DEFINITION OF OVER-UNITY. The moment you just mention “over-unity” you are instantly disqualified and trashed out. To allow researchers in new energies to regain credibility, Dr. Santilli has introduced the following two definitions: DEFINITION 1: SCIENTIFIC ENERGY BALANCE OR SCIENTIFIC COP. It is given by the ratio between the total energy out and the total energy in. This COP “must” be always smaller than one otherwise you become a dreamer, or, worse, you believe yourself to be a God capable of creating energy from nothing. DEFINITION 2: COMMERCIAL ENERGY BALANCE OR COMMERCIAL COP. It is given by the ratio between the total energy out and ONLY the energy in which you and I have to pay for. This commercial COP can indeed be over-unity. ALL over-unities predicted by HM are of the second commercial type. ALL over-unities you are studying must belong to Dr. Santilli’s second definition as a necessary condition for mental sanity. As an example, zero-point over-unities, over-unities originate from energies contained in (empty) space, etc. etc., they are ALL commercial over-unities because you do not pay for the source of energy used for the over-unity itself. You make your own pick: you can keep using the old definition of over-unity as understood by everybody, creation of energy from nothing, and be instantly trashed out; or you can use Dr. Santilli’s professional definitions which verifies the principle of conservation of the energy, and permits indeed over-unity, while identifying with clarity the source of the missing energy. GENERAL RULES TO GET INFORMED: RULE # 1: We would gladly cooperate with anybody who wants to LEARN AND STUDY hadronic mechanics, by providing at our cost copies of technical or general presentations. For this, just send us an e-message at with your complete mailing address, as well as the identification of the level of the presentation (do not forget that HM is treated in the most advanced post Ph/D. journals in math and physics - therefore, PLEASE specify the desired level of presentation). AFTER you have acquired a technical knowledge of the new mechanics and math, and only after that, we would gladly assist you to identify specific applications of the new discipline to your specific problem. RULE # 2: We shall instantly trash, attack virulently, and treat as dirt nobody who throws judgment on this official program of a U. S. PUBLIC company, backed by ongoing formal programs proposals at the DOE, and the like without first acquiring a technical knowledge in the field. If you think that you can throw judgments without first acquiring a technical knowledge, and be respected in this, you desperately need a medical examination, and you need it bad. LEGAL NOTICE. What I have been describing above is covered by a budget of over one million dollars for patents, patents applications all over the world, copyrights, trademarks, patent law firms, ordinary law firms, etc. Everybody is free to copy in full or in part anything belonging to hadronic mechanics without any need of any authorization from anybody, PROVIDED that: 1) the original technical papers directly relevant to each topic are quoted; 2) said original literature is outlined anywhere there is a claim of novelty; and 3) paternities are identified with clarity and without human dirt. In plain words, if you play it clean, have no fear of anybody. However, if you want to pay it dirty and expect to be clean, then you need a medical examination real bad, for you will be cured. Violators of the Laws are sued in federal court (see Conte, Pieralice, Mallove, Mignani & Co). The lawsuits are uploaded in the web site http://home1.gte.net/science2 It is up to you, not me, to pick the serious, scientific behavior or the trash and dirt. Happy holidays to all William F. Pound Chairman Grant Committee Institute for Basic Research http://www.i-b-r.org/ir00015.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 09:28:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15823; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:25:48 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:06:38 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Revised Direct IR Converter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3A4F9E.85F86D84 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"gIBlJ1.0.9t3.RGbEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For Horace, Robin and other interested vortexians, It now seems that this speculation has evolved into "on topic" - inasmuch as the prime component is now a vortex-like coupler (well ok its just a spiral). Furthermore, it would seem that the converter could work with some CF devices - that is, as the methodology to get electrical energy rather than heat out - see below. Thanks to Fred Epps, I was led to the following patent, now expired. http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3462636&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD US3462636: SYSTEM FOR THE CONVERSION OF MICROWAVE ENERGY INTO ELECTRIC DIRECT CURRENT ENERGY UTILIZING AN ELECTRON BEAM TUBE After some cursory investigation, it seems that the basic purpose of the patent goes beyond what is stated above; and it appears that it was for a time being withheld from publication (it is absent from the Patent Gazette) - possibly because the primary application involves more than an energy converter. The patent provides for a light weight direct converter that could be carried aloft by an airplane - which is then capable of being powered from ground in order to stay airborne for weeks, months, or years - particularly a drone airplane that circles over a contested area in wartime (this is extrapolated from other sources). Possibly in peacetime the drone could carry telecommunications gear. The remote power for the drone comes from a focused klystron beam (maser) that could be located at any power plant, dam or even mounted on a truck with a steering mechanism to keep it focused on the drone. Recently other related information has appeared that claims that a single drone that circled at very high altitude could perform a mission over an area the size of Texas - or was that Afghanistan? The key component of the converter is the so-called "Cuccia coupler." It provides a means of imparting a spiraling linear geometry to an electron beam, just as is also found in the TWT (traveling wave tube). This allows for efficient coupling to EM and (as Robin also hinted) is similar to a technique that is used in free electron lasers. Two other promising tidbits are that the device was developed by Siemens, the German equivalent of TI (and the prime supplier of TWTs). It is a company not known to exaggerate claims - and the claim of is for a conversion capability that is "up to 90%" (for the conversion of microwave energy into DC). I am in the process of investigating to see if the "Cuccia coupler" is a structure that could be etched by photolithography into a planar strip of refractory material to create a large array of capillary tubes in 2 dimensions. If so, then these strips could perhaps be stacked so as to provide a bundle of thousands of capillary beam tubes in 3 dimensions that could possibly convert the IR component of combustion - or solar, nuclear, cold fusion (i.e. "warm CF or Mills BLP) etc. into DC. Actually, didn't Mills come up with a similar idea at longer wavelengths? Since solar radiation (or the others) can easily be converted to one or more tightly bunched IR spectra at high efficiency, it would seem that the device might provide for high conversion of solar energy - up to triple that of a solar cell. I am now headed over to the Cal library to see if I can find a particular back issue of the Siemens technical journal - as the illustration on the patent seems to be deliberately "dumbed down." Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:02:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25444; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:55:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:55:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215123006.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:55:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208161318.02ccc280 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2 bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"XjDtC.0.KD6.3ibEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >The Mpemba effect is real. There's no doubt about it. Extensive > >studies have been conducted to isolate the control factors, and to find out > >whether the effect is caused by material differences, such as gas in the > >water, or by non material differences such as the arrangement of water > >molecules in the liquid which might cause differences in thermal > >stratification and cooling rates. At this stage, we do not know what causes > >the effect, and there is no way you or anyone else can predict a priori > >where the answer lies. > >***{If that's what you had in mind, then why did you post the report to >this group? Because I felt like it. > The world is awash with reports of phenomena that arise due to >unknown causes. "Unknown" is not the same as "anomalous." A distinction without a difference. Whether you call it unknown or anomalous, and whatever its cause may be, the Mpemba effect is fascinating. It is counterintuitive, and the social behavior the discovery engendered is worth noting. > There is no basis >for assuming that, when the differences between the "cold water that >freezes faster" and the "warm water that freezes slower" are identified, >the explanation will lie outside of conventional science. There may be no material differences. It could be the same water used in two tests sequentially. I believe this test has been done with a covered sample, which eliminates the evaporation hypothesis, by the way. Once the explanation is identified it will lie inside conventional science, by definition. You probably mean "existing theory." > It is only when >an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with >conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to this >group. --MJ}*** Cold fusion was discovered with the tools of conventional science, and for all anyone knows, it can be explained by existing theory. Once it is explained it will become conventional science. No one knows yet whether it is revolutionary or boring. It was completely unexpected. The fact that palladium gradually transmutes into other elements when placed in one atmosphere of deuterium gas is astounding, but someone may yet examine existing theory and find a prosaic explanation which has been overlooked. (I'll grant that seems unlikely, but you never know -- a priori knowledge of nature is impossible.) Cold fusion may be a technological revolution, but that has nothing to do with a scientific revolution. Technological revolutions can be caused by dull, incremental engineering breakthroughs based on physics that are decades old, even hundreds of years old. No new physics were required to invent railroads, automobiles, airplanes, or the Internet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 10:03:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27455; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:01:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215130021.00c3ee78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:00:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Kilby quotes in Washington Post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EFUEs3.0.vi6.WnbEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was gratifying to see the Nobel Prize won by a modest electrical engineer. Here are some nice quotes from an article about Jack Kilby. - Jed http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46803-2000Dec9.html "A scientist wants to understand things," Kilby once said. "An engineer wants to make things work." . . . Kilby has also spent a lot of time thinking about how to think -- or, more precisely, how to get the kind of idea that can solve a global problem or win a Nobel Prize. The first step, he says, is to make sure you've accurately defined the problem you're trying to solve. "A lot of solutions fail," he says, "because they're trying to solve the wrong problem, and nobody realizes that until the patent is filed and they've built the thing." And once you target the right problem, you have to tune out all the obvious solutions. That is, the quick answer that first pops to mind probably won't work. If the problem is of any importance, all the obvious solutions will have been tried already. Instead, you have to find what he calls the "nonobvious" solution: "You only arrive at the invention when somebody develops a method that everybody else has already decided was obviously wrong." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 11:05:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15271; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:03:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:03:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3A6E0C.50AA6FAA ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:16:28 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Off topic [Fwd: Flight Data Recorder Analysis] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GD4kD1.0.Pk3.khcEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Flight Data Recorder Analysis Date: 15 Dec 2000 07:53:50 -0000 From: "TWA Flight 800" To: List Member TWA Flight 800 - http://twa800.com Dear Member, Glen Schulze, a noted expert witness in Aviation Accident Tape Analysis, has completed an extensive analysis of the limited data released by the NTSB on the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), its numerous revisions by the NTSB and a recently obtained segment of the analog tape waveform at the end of the tape. In this detailed analysis he proves beyond any doubt that the NTSB is withholding data from the end of the FDR tape. The analysis shows that the printed data released by the NTSB, which was revised several times, does not match the analog tape segment waveform received under the Freedom of Information Act. Glen's analysis shows that there could be up to 4 seconds missing from the end of the tape, or in the alternative, the end of the tape was edited to remove some data, causing the difference between the printed data and the waveform data. Although this is very technical reading, it is worth a look. He supports his analysis with numerous exhibits from the NTSB docket public record. The final graphic shows a transient spike, which is consistent with electronic editing. This new information is troubling and demands and explanation from the NTSB. Perhaps we will finally get one with the new Administration. You can find his analysis at: http://twa800.com/schulze/4secfinal.htm Regards, Bob ______________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, write to fl800-unsubscribe listbot.com Dial 800-555-TELL. Instant updates - One free call. Sports, stocks, driving directions... more! http://www.tellme.com/signin/register.gsp?src=engage=11 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 11:17:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18717; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:14:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:14:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3A709F.4555E34A ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:27:27 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 15, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MvaYo3.0.Na4.9scEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Dec 15, 2000 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:36:59 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Dec 00 Washington, DC 1. A LITTLE LATE: SECRETS, LIES AND THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS. Now that Congress has directed that an additional 5,000 DOE Lab employees submit to regular polygraph exams, Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) has asked the National Academy of Sciences to undertake an 18 month study of whether the polygraph has any validity. Most NAS panels just review existing research reports, but a more efficient procedure in this case might be to convene the panel at Allenwood Federal Penitentiary and ask CIA spy Aldrich Ames, whose own polygraph tests gave no hint of his massive espionage. In a recent letter, Ames labeled the polygraph "pseudoscience." 2. ALTERNATIVE PHYSICS: HAS AAAS GONE NEW-AGE ON US? On Tuesday, AAAS hosted a seminar by "Friends of Health," a fringe group put together by Rustum Roy of Penn State, whom you may remember for his virulently anti-establishment views. Roy insisted that Qigong, (Chinese psychic-energy medicine) can increase the pH of water and shift its Raman spectrum. It can also switch the plane of polarization of lithium niobate. The next morning, things got worse; some of the Friends of Health, boasting that they were all physicists, held a press conference at which Hans-Peter Duerr of the Max Planck Institute said Qigong must be explained by quantum mechanics. Joie Jones of UC Irvine, William Tiller of Stanford and George Sudarshan of UT Austin chimed in, claiming that all biology and medicine should be based on non-deterministic quantum interconnectedness. Can it get worse than that? Yes. Gary Swarz, U. Of Arizona, went on ABC Good Morning America with a PhD physicist-science correspondent to talk about detecting Qi, the body's energy field or aura. More about ABC and the strange history of Kirlian photography of human auras next week. 3. SURVIVOR: WITH MIR'S DEMISE, WILL ISS INHERIT THE TOURISTS? MirCorp, a private company that was willing to invest in Mir just to offer a tourist destination for deep-pocket bungee jumpers, must now find another space location (WN 22 Nov 00). Choices are limited to somewhere on the ISS. Maybe they can cut a deal with Spacehab, another private space company, which, together with RKK Energia, the Russian space company, is supposed to be building Enterprise, the first commercial ISS module. It will attach to the Russian side of the ISS in 2003. Meanwhile, Discovery Channel was shamelessly flacking the ISS on "Inside the Space Station." Viewers learned important stuff, like it will be the third brightest object in the night sky: ISS will weigh 7 times as much as a Brachiosaurus. However, Brachiosaurus was smarter. 4. RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY: MIT AND CALTECH SEEK CHADLESS VOTING. The two schools will join to develop an easy-to-use fool-proof voting system by 2004. It's a little too late for Mr. Gore. (Christina Hood contributed to this week's WN.) THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 11:36:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25234; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:33:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:33:02 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001215132225.00957830 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:33:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215101033.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SFXfF2.0.AA6.j7dEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Folks.. Changing the voting technology is much simperer then it looks. In fact the whole idea is to simplify the entire procedure. I have ben putting lots of time into this and I am considering proposing a design for a voting machine that is simple and rapidly re-producible. The output is a validated paper hard copy. The voter will be sure that his/her choice will be counted correctly because that vote is verified as machine readable by a machine before the voter is allowed to place it into the box. If there is a re-count the result would be the same as the original because the method I intend to recommend has a substitution error rate of ZERO. The machines will be inexpensive (less then routine maintenance on the current Florida system) easy to use (also better) and 100% reliable output. isn't this off topic? Ah well..... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 12:10:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03711; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:06:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:06:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215123006.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001208161318.02ccc280 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207090918.02b8eac8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206173514.00bd09b0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A2E757B.2DB856B2@bellsouth.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001205135241.00c2b7b8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001206093800.02caa748 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:05:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mpemba effect - hot water freezes faster than cold water Resent-Message-ID: <"jBH5D2.0.vv.FddEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >The Mpemba effect is real. There's no doubt about it. Extensive >> >studies have been conducted to isolate the control factors, and to find out >> >whether the effect is caused by material differences, such as gas in the >> >water, or by non material differences such as the arrangement of water >> >molecules in the liquid which might cause differences in thermal >> >stratification and cooling rates. At this stage, we do not know what causes >> >the effect, and there is no way you or anyone else can predict a priori >> >where the answer lies. >> >>***{If that's what you had in mind, then why did you post the report to >>this group? > >Because I felt like it. ***{That's non-responsive. Since you decline to answer, I'll answer for you: you posted the report to this group because, at the time, you believed there were circumstances where, other things equal, hot water could freeze faster than cold. Here is the proof: MJ: "Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than cold water." JR: "Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the experiment kept coming out the other way." --Mitchell Jones}*** >> The world is awash with reports of phenomena that arise due to >>unknown causes. "Unknown" is not the same as "anomalous." > >A distinction without a difference. ***{That's because you are ignoring the part where I stated what the difference was--to wit: "It is only when an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to this group." --Mitchell Jones}*** Whether you call it unknown or >anomalous, and whatever its cause may be, the Mpemba effect is fascinating. >It is counterintuitive, and the social behavior the discovery engendered is >worth noting. ***{I'll grant that it is interesting, but there is nothing counterintuitive about the notion of hot water freezing before cold, if other things are *not* equal. (Hot water that is not mixed with antifreeze, for example, freezes before cold water that *is* mixed with antifreeze.) Hence your claim that this effect is counterintuitive is yet more evidence that the actual position you have taken, from the beginning, has been that hot water can freeze faster than cold when other things are equal. --MJ}*** >> There is no basis >>for assuming that, when the differences between the "cold water that >>freezes faster" and the "warm water that freezes slower" are identified, >>the explanation will lie outside of conventional science. > >There may be no material differences. It could be the same water used in >two tests sequentially. I believe this test has been done with a covered >sample, which eliminates the evaporation hypothesis, by the way. Once the >explanation is identified it will lie inside conventional science, by >definition. ***{Yes, but it will lie outside *present* conventional science, according to you: "Yo: Mitchell. We know conventional theory. Even I do. Do the experiment and you will find conventional theory does not apply." Bottom line: you claim that the explanation of the "Mpemba effect" lies outside *present* conventional science, and I deny that there is a shred of a basis for believing that. The question of whether the explanation, when eventually found, will lie within *future* conventional science, is irrelevant to the issue between us. --Mitchell Jones}*** You probably mean "existing theory." ***{No. Some of "existing theory" is part of conventional science, and some is not. Hydrino theory, for example, exists and hence is part of existing theory, but lies outside of *conventional*--i.e., generally accepted--theory. --MJ}*** >> It is only when >>an effect has been sufficiently characterized to bring about a clash with >>conventional science that it becomes an anomaly, and hence relevant to >>>>this group. --MJ}*** > >Cold fusion was discovered with the tools of conventional science ***{A false distinction. Unconventional scientists are not distinguished from conventional scientists on the basis of the tools they use, but on the basis of their unorthodox views. The tools they use, given equal funding and similar areas of investigation, are pretty much the same. --MJ}*** , and for >all anyone knows, it can be explained by existing theory. ***{Conventional scientists have been shouting the contrary for more than a decade, with virtual unanimity. Are they not a subset of "anyone?" --MJ}*** Once it is >explained it will become conventional science. ***{A truism that does not alter by a whit the fact that CF conflicts with conventional science as it exists today. --MJ}*** No one knows yet whether it >is revolutionary or boring. It was completely unexpected. The fact that >palladium gradually transmutes into other elements when placed in one >atmosphere of deuterium gas is astounding, but someone may yet examine >existing theory and find a prosaic explanation which has been overlooked. ***{Yup: subtle experimental error, without a doubt, is an explanation that falls within the confines of conventional science. :-) --MJ}*** >(I'll grant that seems unlikely ***{Subtle experimental error does not seem unlikely to me. --MJ}*** , but you never know -- a priori knowledge >of nature is impossible.) > >Cold fusion may be a technological revolution ***{And it may be a mistake. --MJ}*** , but that has nothing to >do with a scientific revolution. ***{If cold fusion proves to be real, it will turn conventional nuclear physics on its head, in the virtually unanimous opinions of those who teach and understand conventional nuclear physics. That's why, virtually to a man, they don't believe it. --MJ}*** Technological revolutions can be caused >by dull, incremental engineering breakthroughs based on physics that are >decades old, even hundreds of years old. No new physics were required to >invent railroads, automobiles, airplanes, or the Internet. ***{Inventors tend to operate on the basis of visualizable mental models, rather than on the basis of mathematical physics, because visualization is an inherently superior tool for understanding the world. However, once inventors come up with a device that kicks off a technological revolution, experimental physicists invariably follow up by collecting massive amounts of data in the new area, and mathematical physicists then design revolutionary new mathematical constructs to fit that new data. And, to the extent that theoretical physicists still exist, they then fashion visualizable mental models that precisely fit the mathematical constructs, and, eventually, replace the crude visualizations that motivated the inventors. Bottom line: revolutionary technologies produce revolutionary science because, when the dust settles, the explanations for the revolutionary technology seldom fall within the conventional science that existed when the first instance of the new device was constructed. That's why a new branch of physics, thermodynamics, resulted from the discovery of the heat engine; it is why aerodynamics resulted from the discovery of the airplane; and it is also why a new branch of physics will likely result from the discovery of "cold fusion," if it proves to be real. --MJ}*** > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 13:06:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20653; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:59:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:59:56 -0800 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC: Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213103549.00c09858 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"p4HOK1.0.c25.CPeEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I love it. Thank You Jed Hank On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood: a neurodevelopmental perspective on > A.A. Milne > Sarah E. Shea, Kevin Gordon, Ann Hawkins, Janet Kawchuk, Donna Smith > CMAJ 2000;163(12):1557-9 > > > http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-163/issue-12/1557.htm > > Abstract: > > Somewhere at the top of the Hundred Acre Wood a little boy and his bear > play. On the surface it is an innocent world, but on closer examination by > our group of experts we find a forest where neurodevelopmental and > psychosocial problems go unrecognized and untreated. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 20:24:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA18075; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:18:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:18:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20001216041830.4779.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:18:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"EAYr2.0.KQ4.bqkEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The big difference between the proposed idea and linear particle accelerators or e-beam microwave amplifiers and oscillators it that in both the latter the energy input is highly spatially and temporally coherent (in linac) or directed and monoenergetic (the others). In thermodynamic terms this means that the equivalent temperature of the input energy source is infinite. This same principle is what allows e.g. electric motors with a theoretical efficiency of 100%. Although thermodynamics is still valid under these conditions, it is not very interesting for them. IR radiation in a hot tube is INCOHERENT radiation. Therefore, you can't convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency than the Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum temperatures. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 20:41:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23923; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:38:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:38:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"P6ruy3.0.jr5.A7lEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Edmund Storms wrote: > >> They want >>to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as >>it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. And Jed Rothwell responded I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. Chinese authors in 1000 BC bemoaned This discussion motivates me to write. I don't understand why intelligent people support the agenda of the Democrats. I have the upmost regard for Edmund's intelligence, he reminds me of my college science professors. However they, (the Democrats) have instituted one failed social engineering sceme after another. I don't have a problem with the government spending money, but I hate to see them waste it. Now Algore, Mr Environmentalist. What did he do with the briefing that Mallove gave him? Nothing. We just discussed the case of a C F patent that was denied. You can't tell me that if a guy like me. A displaced farmer who never finished college, can come to know about cohering the energy of the vacuum and low energy nuclear transmutations, that the people who are running this country don't know about it. Algore doesn't give a damn about the environment, he wants to take away people's property rights and drive them into the cities. But that's not why the democratic agenda will take us to hell in a handbasket. Welfare is a classic example of knot headed social engineering. We destroyed the family structure of the families who took that money. Just tune in Jerry Springer and behold the endless parade of trailer trash, subsidized with tax dollars. We feed little girls an endless stream of smut in the form of entertainment, is it any reason that they turn into sluts? Consider the fountain head of this torrent of sewage (Hollywood) and then look at who the biggest supporters of the Democrats were. I just can't how intelligent people can continue to support this. Their prescription for what ails the country is more of the same! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 20:52:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25975; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:47:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:47:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:47:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: A-B communication device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"jM-xO3.0.nL6.DFlEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > It's all from standard Maxwell eqns + the definition of the > potentials. Variations in phi are possible without any E at all. This > follows from the definitions of phi (the scalar potential) and A (the > vector potential) > > E = - DEL(phi) - A/@t > > B = DEL X A > > The first eqn, with E = 0 says we can have a situation in which: > > DEL (phi) = - A/@t > > And that's how they are related in the proposed A-phi wave. The A in the > > A-phi wave also has no curl (it always points in the direction of > propagation) so there's no B either. Given the above, your wave equation is A/@t = - grad phi. (1) This equation has no physical constant. There is no set wave velocity. The doesn't depend on anything except the amplitudes of the A and phi and their derivatives. To keep the analysis simple, consider a 1D plane wave propagating in the x direction. To keep the conclusion somewhat general, let A = A(u) and phi = phi(u), where u = x-vt . (2) u is a phase function. A(u) and phi(u) are arbitrary functions of u, so long as they are differentiable. Substitution of (2) into (1) yields the dispersion equation for this wave, v = (dA/du)/(d phi/du) = dA/d phi . (3) Now we see that the wave velocity depends only on the local ratio of the derivatives of A and phi. Strange wave. If you could launch the wave with large enough A / small enough phi the wave speed would exceed c. Is it real? The absence of any physical constant makes me doubt it. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 21:31:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA00943; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:25:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: thomas malloy cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: question [s] 'Going to ..."cohering....." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"F_v0P3.0.ZE.9plEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please see notes, question in text, below: On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, thomas malloy wrote: > >Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >> They want > >>to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as > >>it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. > > And Jed Rothwell responded > > I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a > handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. > Chinese authors in 1000 BC bemoaned > > This discussion motivates me to write. I don't understand why > intelligent people support the agenda of the Democrats. I have the > upmost regard for Edmund's intelligence, he reminds me of my college > science professors. However they, (the Democrats) have instituted one > failed social engineering sceme after another. I don't have a problem > with the government spending money, but I hate to see them waste it. > > Now Algore, Mr Environmentalist. What did he do with the briefing > that Mallove gave him? Nothing. We just discussed the case of a C F > patent that was denied. You can't tell me that if a guy like me. A > displaced farmer who never finished college, ===== FLAG ===== Q: What is "..cohering the energy of the vacuum..." Q: What is the context for this? "........ can come to know about > cohering the energy of the vacuum and low energy nuclear > transmutations, that the people who are running this country don't > know about it. .........." Algore doesn't give a damn about the environment, he > wants to take away people's property rights and drive them into the > cities. > > But that's not why the democratic agenda will take us to hell in a > handbasket. Welfare is a classic example of knot headed social > engineering. We destroyed the family structure of the families who > took that money. Just tune in Jerry Springer and behold the endless > parade of trailer trash, subsidized with tax dollars. We feed little > girls an endless stream of smut in the form of entertainment, is it > any reason that they turn into sluts? Consider the fountain head of > this torrent of sewage (Hollywood) and then look at who the biggest > supporters of the Democrats were. I just can't how intelligent > people can continue to support this. Their prescription for what ails > the country is more of the same! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 21:32:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01077; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:26:19 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c06721$1fe29aa0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:29:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"C3Ld33.0.lG.xplEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >And Jed Rothwell responded > >I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a >handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. >Chinese authors in 1000 BC bemoaned History repeats itself, there is order in chaos. >This discussion motivates me to write. I don't understand why >intelligent people support the agenda of the Democrats. Cynical, greedy self interest and ignorant, stupid naivete. >However they, (the Democrats) have instituted one >failed social engineering sceme after another. Be nice to let them iteratively, a-politicaly work on the problem in someone else's neighborhood. In the real world you have one brief chance to work an engineering miracle, or suffer political defeat. >You can't tell me that if a guy like me. A displaced farmer who never finished college, can come to know about >cohering the energy of the vacuum and low energy nuclear transmutations, that the people who are running this country don't >know about it. I'll bet there are plasma-fission reactors, similar to a microwave-excited high-pressure sodium light bulb, that could solve a lot of problems. And ruin things for the big oil companies and create competition for our nuclear ships, subs, maybe even tanks and aircraft. But we wouldn't want them in the 'wrong hands' would we? > Algore doesn't give a damn about the environment, he wants to take away people's property rights and drive them into the >cities. And scare people with the environment so they will tolerate an sort of 'energy tax' payable to an environmental gestapo that will kick back money to the greeny democrats the way military contractors kick back money to our republican politicians. Can't they be content with CIA drug money? >Just tune in Jerry Springer and behold the endless >parade of trailer trash, subsidized with tax dollars. We feed little >girls an endless stream of smut in the form of entertainment, is it >any reason that they turn into sluts? Consider the fountain head of >this torrent of sewage (Hollywood) and then look at who the biggest >supporters of the Democrats were. I just can't how intelligent >people can continue to support this. Their prescription for what ails >the country is more of the same! The same way public 'education' is supported. The ugly truth is we are all competing and hate each other beneath our social smiles and handshakes. Conservatives know this and know their fellows know it too, so they take care in case their armed, which they typicaly are in some form. Liberals are in denial of it, believing the predatory lie, "I'm from the government, I'm here to help" (the lie that a government composed of selfish predators can/will help/equalize) and less-than-more consciously poison those they are charged to help. If you are a teacher, is it in your interest to see the kids you educate do better than your own children? And moreover, equality degenerates into equality of suffering. Solzhenitsen's "Gulag Archipellago" illustrates this well. The Soviet system dumbs down talent, punishes unavoidable failure to prevent passive aggression (playing dumb to avoid repsonsibility) and uses a type of socio-political darwinism resulting in a type of irrational faith in authorities' power. Some of lifes many simple ironies. Those that know they are animals act more divine than those that believe they are divine, and act like animals. Those that allow the talented to prosper benefit by their reflected glory far more than those that handicap each other to the lowest common denominator. Hollywood is about the business of creating that cultural lowest common denominator. You can bet the liberal elite don't consume that trash. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 21:47:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03575; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:39:03 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mad Cows? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:39:12 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a41ff87.74916129 mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000322000735171.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> In-Reply-To: <20000322000735171.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA03547 Resent-Message-ID: <"z8I1y.0.jt.t_lEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forwarded from another list: *********************************************** " If Purdey is right, he deserves a Nobel Prize for medicine. Instead he has been shot at, his phone lines have been cut, and his house has been burned down. " Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:29:29 +0900 Subject: Copper-bottomed answer to mad cow disease? The Guardian Weekly 30-11-2000 Copper-bottomed answer to mad cow disease? There may be a simple explanation for BSE, argues George Monbiot The most interesting aspect of France's BSE scandal is that it makes no sense at all. Britain stopped exporting contaminated cattle feed to Europe in 1991 (though it continued sending it to the third world until 1996). In most other European Union countries cases have already peaked and declined, as expected. But in France the number of infected animals has doubled in the past year. It is impossible to see how this pattern could result from the export of British bone meal. The transmission of BSE has never been satisfactorily explained by the prevailing theory. The consumption of meat and bone meal from infected cows has doubtless played an important role. Yet this alone fails to account for the huge numbers of cattle in Britain that continued to become infected after most contaminated feed had been removed from the food chain. The latest research on the human form of the disease, vCJD, published four weeks ago, failed to find any link with the consumption of infected beef. You might imagine that when its theory isn't working, a government would wish to test the alternatives. But the British government has so far sought only to attack a hypothesis that does appear to fit the facts. Since 1988 a Somerset farmer, Mark Purdey, has been arguing that scientists have overlooked the root causes of BSE. Self-taught and self-financed, he has studied the brain's complex biochemical pathways, and this year published a groundbreaking paper in a respected medical journal. His reward is to have been reviled, misrepresented and physically attacked. Prions, the brain proteins whose alteration seems to be responsible for BSE, are designed to protect the brain from the oxidising properties of chemicals activated by dangerous agents such as ultraviolet light, Purdey argues. When, he suggests, the prion proteins are exposed to too little copper and too much manganese, the manganese takes the place of the copper that the prion normally binds to. The protein becomes distorted and loses its function. BSE arose in British herds in the 80s, Purdey asserts, because the Ministry of Agriculture started forcing all cattle farmers to treat their animals with an organophosphate pesticide called phosmet, at far higher doses than are used elsewhere in the world. The pesticide had to be poured along the line of the spinal cord. Phosmet, Purdey has shown, captures copper. At the same time cattle feed was being supplemented with chicken manure, from birds dosed with manganese to increase their egg yield. The prion proteins in the cows' brains were both deprived of copper and dosed with manganese. In France the use of phosmet first became mandatory in Brittany. Twenty of France's initial 28 cases of BSE emerged there. BSE's subsequent spread, Purdey maintains, mirrors the use of the pesticide. Poisoning by similar means may explain the distribution of the human form of the disease. Of the two main clusters of vCJD in Britain one, in Kent, is in the middle of a fruit- and hop-growing area where huge quantities of organophosphates and manganese-based fungicides are used. The other is in Queniborough in Leicestershire, whose dyeworks (until they caught fire a few years ago, spraying chemicals over the village) used to dump some of their residues into the sewerage system, Purdey alleges. The sewage was spread over the fields. Dyeworks use shedloads of manganese. Purdey has tested his theory on BSE and CJD clusters in Iceland, the United States, Slovakia and Sardinia. He found that people and animals had been exposed to deficiencies of copper and surfeits of manganese. Most of the clusters, intriguingly, are in mountainous areas, where levels of ultraviolet light are high. But the most compelling evidence in support of his hypothesis comes from a paper published by a team of biochemists at Cambridge University this year. They found that when copper was substituted by manganese in prion proteins, the prions adopted precisely the distinguishing features that identify the infective agent in BSE. If Purdey is right, he deserves a Nobel Prize for medicine. Instead he has been shot at, his phone lines have been cut, and his house has been burned down. The Ministry of Agriculture, which for 50 years has had a dangerously close relationship with the agrochemical industry, has repeatedly sought to discredit him. Suddenly, however, its tone has changed, and it has now promised to start funding his research. The families of the French victims of CJD are threatening to sue the British government, and it desperately needs an alternative transmission theory. With funding on its way, and new evidence accumulating every month, a self-educated dairy farmer may be about to overturn the entire body of scientific research on the biggest public health scandal of modern times. *********************************************** -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 22:28:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13346; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:25:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:25:43 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:24:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001216041830.4779.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001216041830.4779.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA13325 Resent-Message-ID: <"UjB7p2.0.SG3.chmEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:18:30 -0800 (PST): [snip] >IR radiation in a hot tube is INCOHERENT radiation. Therefore, you can't >convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency than the >Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum temperatures. [snip] Could a maser be thermally pumped? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 22:34:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14097; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:31:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:31:01 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-B communication device Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:30:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1r2m3tcahg5q50asvvndaegd0l8aap3rqd 4ax.com> References: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA14072 Resent-Message-ID: <"3Rgj3.0.BS3.bmmEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:47:00 -0800 (PST): [snip] >long as they are differentiable. Substitution of (2) into (1) yields the >dispersion equation for this wave, > > v = (dA/du)/(d phi/du) = dA/d phi . (3) > >Now we see that the wave velocity depends only on the local ratio of the >derivatives of A and phi. Strange wave. If you could launch the wave with >large enough A / small enough phi the wave speed would exceed c. Forgive my ignorance, but what does dA/d phi have to do with the absolute magnitudes of A and phi? >Is it real? The absence of any physical constant makes me doubt it. OTOH that may just be the signature of FTL. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 15 23:13:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA20958; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:10:57 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <83.4555958.276c6f57 aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:10:15 EST Subject: Who can and can't be in our group. To: energy21 listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: LaFonteMembers aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114 Resent-Message-ID: <"xxFa92.0.O75.1MnEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The people who are not allowed in the LaFonte Research Group are: 1. People who are Dead. The people who are allowed to become members are: 1. People who can breath on a pane of glass and make it fog up. If anyone is new to the world of overunity and has a lot of questions, I will try to answer them when possible. I am so over loaded with work I can't get to them all. Please forgive me if I don't answer your mail. Over the last 25 years I have had countless phone calls and emails go unanswered so I know the feeling. You can't learn if your locked out, so join up and take in as much as you can. Maybe some of the others in the group or other lists will have time if I don't. There are a lot of nice people in our group and the other lists that have put up with and helped me. Who knows, maybe someone new to the field just might ask a question that leads to the true overunity device. We are not at war with the axis powers anymore so there is no need to keep our work secret. To the contrary, we want the whole world to know, now. I kid you not. Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 00:32:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03097; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:18 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:31:31 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a44243c.84314597 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop. mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001215101033.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001215101033.00c105c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA03077 Resent-Message-ID: <"nP3wA1.0.Fm.MXoEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:02:24 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: >>However, the voting will still be secret. Each voter will receive a >>copy of how they voted (printed out locally) and their votes will be >>published by being associated with a code number. > >I was going to mention this scheme to Mitchell Jones, who favors open >(non-secret) voting. This accomplishes the same thing. There is some merit >to that idea, but some danger as well. It might help avoid fraud, but the >danger is that someone might get hold of the master list, and find out >which name is associated with which number. Supposedly, there would be no association of the voter's name with the number. The number would be generated at the time the voting takes place, and unless the voting officials somehow enter the voter's name into the computer, or spy on the voting computer, the computer has no way of knowing who the voter is (no login, etc.). Only the voter would be able to associate the code number with the ballot selections. >>This method will virtually guarantee that each vote will be counted. >>Of course, I don't know of any system that will prevent "extra" votes >>from entering the voting tabulation (no matter what voting system is >>used). That's the major problem with secret ballots. > >This method would help with the "extra" vote problem too. You could >download the entire data set and count the votes yourself. Someone might >add bogus serial numbers associated with fake votes, but perhaps they would >be recognizable. You could make the highest serial number equal the total >number of registered voters, so that any fake serial number higher than >that would be recognizable. The only way to cheat would be to post an >unused serial number with a fake ballot, from a voter who registered but >did not show up at the polls. A person who did not vote, but who saw his >own secret number used would know there is hanky-panky going on. I don't think that method of adding extra votes would work. The computer would know how many voters there were, and that count would have to match the published list. Of course, someone could sneak onto the computer and add extra votes directly (which is about the only way I can see to add votes). The computer, itself, would be in a locked and sealed box (meaning a special sealing tape, signed by an election official). >Here is something I would be anxious to avoid with any voting technology: a >unified, standard, nationwide system based upon one particular general >purpose computer and software type. It seems likely it would end up boing >the the most commonly used operating system, which is Windows 98. This >software is impenetrable, uncontrolled, and grossly unreliable. A voting >system that depends upon it would invite chaos much worse than the Florida >brouhaha. Essentially, we would be entrusting democracy to the tender >mercies of William Gates III, or to some lunatic computer virus programmer >in Hoboken. There is a lot to be said for nonstandard local systems based >on hundreds of different technologies. In nature you would call that >biodiversity. One computer virus cannot infect all voting systems. I agree. IMO, the source code for the voting machines should be open source so it's available to everyone (especially millions of programmers) to verify. The OS could be very basic, and graphics wouldn't be needed. >Some voting machines commonly sold in the 1970s were based upon Data >General Nova computers. According to a New Yorker article written at the >time, they were wide open to fraud. This does not surprise me. I was >programming them at the time. They were multitasking and there was >absolutely no memory protection. Any programmer could log onto a terminal >or modem connection, and examine and change any byte in memory, leaving no >trace. Geeze. One of the primary requirements for this type of system would be absolutely NO communications capability. The only inputs would be a touch-screen or buttons along the side of a screen. The only output would be the list of voting results (maybe via a one-way IR optical link). Ballot setup could be via a plug-in memory card, similar to what's used in digital cameras. >I saw some ATM software not long ago that was similar to what I describe. >If we can build reliable ATMs that never lose track of the money, I'm sure >we can make simple and reliable voting machines, but the job must be done >slowly and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y. Yup. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 00:38:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03730; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:37:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:37:56 -0800 Message-ID: <028201c06733$25de69e0$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Killer? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:38:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06700.D368DE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"6_uqU.0.Cw.ZdoEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06700.D368DE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/brknews/general/940670.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06700.D368DE20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="TheStreet.com 3M Halts Much of Scotchguard Line.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TheStreet.com 3M Halts Much of Scotchguard Line.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/brknews/general/940670.html [DOC#26] BASEURL=3Dhttp://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/thestreet.com/homepage;hmpge=3Din= dex;sz=3D468x60;ord=3D018028670202704544? [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/brknews/general/940670.html Modified=3D80C1E1E43267C00160 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06700.D368DE20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 00:47:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04703; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:46:32 -0800 Message-ID: <029601c06734$589fc580$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: "Lynda Witz" , Cc: Subject: Re: Scotchgard Carpet Protection Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:46:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06702.065C9460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9OHMr2.0.P91.dloEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06702.065C9460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06702.065C9460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ Modified=E009891B3467C001E9 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06702.065C9460-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 00:59:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA05775; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:55:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:55:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a41ff87.74916129 mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000322000735171.AAA123 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3a41ff87.74916129 mail.midiowa.net> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:54:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Mad Cows? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ocq5O1.0.9Q1.etoEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow. It's like h. pylori and stomach ulcers all over again. - Rick >Forwarded from another list: > *********************************************** >" If Purdey is right, he deserves a Nobel Prize for medicine. >Instead he has been shot at, his phone lines have been cut, >and his house has been burned down. " > >Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group > >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:29:29 +0900 >Subject: Copper-bottomed answer to mad cow disease? > > >The Guardian Weekly 30-11-2000 > >Copper-bottomed answer to mad cow disease? > >There may be a simple explanation for BSE, argues George Monbiot > >The most interesting aspect of France's BSE scandal is that it makes >no sense at all. Britain stopped exporting contaminated cattle feed >to Europe in 1991 (though it continued sending it to the third world >until 1996). In most other European Union countries cases have >already peaked and declined, as expected. But in France the number of >infected animals has doubled in the past year. It is impossible to >see how this pattern could result from the export of British bone >meal. > >The transmission of BSE has never been satisfactorily explained by >the prevailing theory. The consumption of meat and bone meal from >infected cows has doubtless played an important role. Yet this alone >fails to account for the huge numbers of cattle in Britain that >continued to become infected after most contaminated feed had been >removed from the food chain. The latest research on the human form of >the disease, vCJD, published four weeks ago, failed to find any link >with the consumption of infected beef. > >You might imagine that when its theory isn't working, a government >would wish to test the alternatives. But the British government has >so far sought only to attack a hypothesis that does appear to fit the >facts. Since 1988 a Somerset farmer, Mark Purdey, has been arguing >that scientists have overlooked the root causes of BSE. Self-taught >and self-financed, he has studied the brain's complex biochemical >pathways, and this year published a groundbreaking paper in a >respected medical journal. His reward is to have been reviled, >misrepresented and physically attacked. > >Prions, the brain proteins whose alteration seems to be responsible >for BSE, are designed to protect the brain from the oxidising >properties of chemicals activated by dangerous agents such as >ultraviolet light, Purdey argues. When, he suggests, the prion >proteins are exposed to too little copper and too much manganese, the >manganese takes the place of the copper that the prion normally binds >to. The protein becomes distorted and loses its function. > >BSE arose in British herds in the 80s, Purdey asserts, because the >Ministry of Agriculture started forcing all cattle farmers to treat >their animals with an organophosphate pesticide called phosmet, at >far higher doses than are used elsewhere in the world. The pesticide >had to be poured along the line of the spinal cord. Phosmet, Purdey >has shown, captures copper. At the same time cattle feed was being >supplemented with chicken manure, from birds dosed with manganese to >increase their egg yield. The prion proteins in the cows' brains were >both deprived of copper and dosed with manganese. In France the use >of phosmet first became mandatory in Brittany. Twenty of France's >initial 28 cases of BSE emerged there. BSE's subsequent spread, >Purdey maintains, mirrors the use of the pesticide. > >Poisoning by similar means may explain the distribution of the human >form of the disease. Of the two main clusters of vCJD in Britain one, >in Kent, is in the middle of a fruit- and hop-growing area where huge >quantities of organophosphates and manganese-based fungicides are >used. The other is in Queniborough in Leicestershire, whose dyeworks >(until they caught fire a few years ago, spraying chemicals over the >village) used to dump some of their residues into the sewerage >system, Purdey alleges. The sewage was spread over the fields. >Dyeworks use shedloads of manganese. > >Purdey has tested his theory on BSE and CJD clusters in Iceland, the >United States, Slovakia and Sardinia. He found that people and >animals had been exposed to deficiencies of copper and surfeits of >manganese. Most of the clusters, intriguingly, are in mountainous >areas, where levels of ultraviolet light are high. > >But the most compelling evidence in support of his hypothesis comes >from a paper published by a team of biochemists at Cambridge >University this year. They found that when copper was substituted by >manganese in prion proteins, the prions adopted precisely the >distinguishing features that identify the infective agent in BSE. > >If Purdey is right, he deserves a Nobel Prize for medicine. Instead >he has been shot at, his phone lines have been cut, and his house has >been burned down. The Ministry of Agriculture, which for 50 years has >had a dangerously close relationship with the agrochemical industry, >has repeatedly sought to discredit him. Suddenly, however, its tone >has changed, and it has now promised to start funding his research. >The families of the French victims of CJD are threatening to sue the >British government, and it desperately needs an alternative >transmission theory. > >With funding on its way, and new evidence accumulating every month, a >self-educated dairy farmer may be about to overturn the entire body >of scientific research on the biggest public health scandal of modern >times. > > *********************************************** >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 01:13:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA08091; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:10:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:10:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:09:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A note I got from somewhere Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"UCu381.0.G-1.16pEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Dear Folks, > > > What is the membrane from Dupont? Please > >On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Michael Johnston wrote: > > > > > Tokamak plasma reactor at Harvard it is equivalent to about 300 >gallons of > > gasoline. Now,--- if you make a > You can probably order it from the same place were you can order the Tokamak that will give you the energy output of 300 gallons of gasoline out of the deuterium. My understanding of the hot fusion program it that after 40 years, and $150 B of TPM ( taxpayer money ) they are at 85% of unity. Correct me if I wrong. As I understand it the only way to separate deuterium from protium is distillation of mass defusion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 01:13:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA08126; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:10:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:10:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:09:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"GQe6x1.0.u-1.86pEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Jed, > >On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:29:12 -0500, Jed Rothwell > wrote: > >>We need to improve the technology, but there are also valid arguments for >>sticking with what we have and what we know works, particularly in small >>communities. Changes must be made very cautiously. There is no guarantee >>that newer technology will make it harder to "fix" elections. In my >>opinion, any system that depends upon the Internet, for example, would be >>an open invitation to fraud. Any system which does not produce a paper > >trail would ill advised. > > >This method will virtually guarantee that each vote will be counted. >Of course, I don't know of any system that will prevent "extra" votes >from entering the voting tabulation (no matter what voting system is >used). That's the major problem with secret ballots. > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) This discussion reminds me of a discussion that the Canadian's had on As It Happens from the CBC. The only to guarantee A: that someone doesn't write a hidden computer program to manipulate the result and B: guarantee that every vote gets counted it to use paper ballots, mark them with a pencil, and count they on a local level. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 02:27:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA17483; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:26:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:26:57 -0800 Message-ID: <031b01c06742$60002aa0$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:26:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06710.0CD99E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LuVLX1.0.1H4.mDqEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06710.0CD99E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here you go, Robin. Potassium (K) rom potassium silicate and other sources and H+ cations in tissue, plus a Light Lepton (LL-): LL- + H+ ---> Neutral H* Then H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + ~ 5.0 Mev http://bodyalive.com/BioTrans.htm The LL- with a 27.2 eV rest mass/energy gives up the relativistic reaction energy as heat (~ 8.0E-19 joules) sans gammas and neutrons. Plenty of LLs attached to the water molecules in body tissue. Hopefully not enough for Spontaneous Human Combustion, or you might end up as a pillar of limestone. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06710.0CD99E60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Technology.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Technology.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://bodyalive.com/BioTrans.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://bodyalive.com/BioTrans.htm Modified=4039071B4067C00103 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06710.0CD99E60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 04:45:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA01753; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:45:25 -0800 Message-ID: <033501c06755$b968ad20$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:44:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"kuZpo2.0.JR.aFsEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Number crunching for the reactions: 1, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* (or a Hydrino) 2, H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + 8.34 Mev (1.33E-12 joule) Then for 40 grams of Ca++ (Calcium from Hydrogen and Potassium): 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 1.065 joules of heat given off for the production of 40 grams of Calcium. So, since 40 kilos (88 pounds) of Hydrogen and Potassium would only produce 1,065 Joules of Spontaneous Human Combustion Heat while forming ~ 40 kilos of Calcium to turn you into a Staligmite... :-) Okay Robin? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 05:27:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06672; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:26:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: mjones jump.net Subject: Bill B. versus Mitch J. In-Reply-To: <031b01c06742$60002aa0$b055143f computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kzMn12.0.Ae1.EssEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I apologize for the long delay. I wrote a couple of long responses, but gave up and decided to wait a bit because they contained too much defensiveness. I need to at least *attempt* to sort out personal bias from moderation issues. First off, Mitch, if you are talking about being "booted off", you must be unfamiliar with my moderation behavior across history. I escalate control as follows. When I see a problem, first I discuss the issue. Then I give warnings. Then I ask that the thread be moved to vortexB. Then I stop asking, and move the offender temporarily to vortexB. I listen to input during this whole sequence, and sometimes alter my position. When I push someone off vortex, sometimes the person in question vanishes. This is because sometimes they leave in a huff. Sometimes they go off and start their own list. Sometimes they resubscribe and lurk on Vortex-L. You are relatively safe in insulting me, if "safe" means your remaining on the list. I pay more attention to insults directed at others. And as far as the present conversation, I am only at the discussions/warnings stage. If you feel an implied threat of unsubscription based on your experiences in other forums, then perhaps you are making assumptions which don't apply to vortex-L. The "threat" at present is that I might move the Mpemba-questioning thread off-list. I cannot answer a 40K message without making it an even larger response, or without selectively ignoring large sections. I'll summarize and respond in another message. PS, I know you love to debate. This msg is FYI. If you argue with it, I will read but not respond. Save it for later messages. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 05:47:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09306; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:44:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 05:44:53 -0800 Message-ID: <034401c0675e$09faec00$b055143f computer> Reply-To: "tp.sparber" From: "tp.sparber" To: Cc: References: <033501c06755$b968ad20$b055143f computer> Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 06:43:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0zg_S.0.JH2.L7tEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: F.J. Sparber wrote: > Number crunching for the reactions: > > 1, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* (or a Hydrino) > > 2, H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + 8.34 Mev (1.33E-12 joule) > > Then for 40 grams of Ca++ (Calcium from Hydrogen and Potassium): > > 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 1.065 joules of heat given off for the production > of 40 grams of Calcium. I blew it. 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 8.0E11 Joules or about 2.0E10 Joules/gram of Calcium formed, or about 20 million btu/gram. According to that, Tyson's chickens have got smoke coming out of their tail ends even with modest Biological Transmutations. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 06:45:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18173; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 06:43:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 06:43:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3B7193.C0365D99 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 07:43:51 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fGQ0e.0.pR4.J-tEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > >Edmund Storms wrote: > > > >> They want > >>to win at any cost. We can see the race to the bottom operating here as > >>it is now well underway in education, journalism and science. > > And Jed Rothwell responded > > I do not buy this hypothesis, that things are going to hell in a > handbasket. The idea has been around since writing was invented. > Chinese authors in 1000 BC bemoaned I think you will admit that cycles exist in the conditions we experience. The 1929 depression is a graphic example of such a down cycle. On the other hand, the present cycle has been very good to us for the last 10 years. The issue is where will the cycle go next? I am not bemoaning the general deterioration because I agree conditions we experience have generally improved because of technology and increased knowledge of our environment. > > > This discussion motivates me to write. I don't understand why > intelligent people support the agenda of the Democrats. I have the > upmost regard for Edmund's intelligence, he reminds me of my college > science professors. However they, (the Democrats) have instituted one > failed social engineering sceme after another. I don't have a problem > with the government spending money, but I hate to see them waste it. First of all, I'm not a Democrat and I did not support Gore, although I voted for him because Bush would have been worse. In this system, the choice is always the lesser of two evils. In addition, the choice always must be based on a broad range of issues. Second, I disagree that the Democrats are responsible for all the failed systems. Some have worked very well, such as social security. On the other hand, the welfare system was so bastardized by the need to compromise with conservatives that its failure was inevitable. You can not always blame failure on one party because what we do is always a compromise. > > > Now Algore, Mr Environmentalist. What did he do with the briefing > that Mallove gave him? Nothing. We just discussed the case of a C F > patent that was denied. You can't tell me that if a guy like me. A > displaced farmer who never finished college, can come to know about > cohering the energy of the vacuum and low energy nuclear > transmutations, that the people who are running this country don't > know about it. Algore doesn't give a damn about the environment, he > wants to take away people's property rights and drive them into the > cities. In fairness, neither Bush nor Gore have shown interest on cold fusion for good reasons. Respected scientists advise them that the claims are not real, Mallove not withstanding, and none of the over unity methods are any where near being commercialized. When the methods have been properly demonstrated, people in government will take notice. On the other hand, I expect Bush to show little interest even after the techniques have been demonstrated because of his support by the oil industry. > > > But that's not why the democratic agenda will take us to hell in a > handbasket. Welfare is a classic example of knot headed social > engineering. We destroyed the family structure of the families who > took that money. Yes, the family structure was destroyed some cases while many families were kept intact under one roof. What would you do when people were unable to earn enough to live? You can not just ignore such people or suggest they simply get jobs. Most of these people want to work but can not because of poor education, poor work habits or because they were Black. > Just tune in Jerry Springer and behold the endless > parade of trailer trash, subsidized with tax dollars. Springer makes his living by parading the trash. He purposely selects such people from the general population. The general population does not behave this way and if put on such a show would be too boring to watch. I know of many people who are on welfare who work hard at the limited jobs they can obtain, try to give their kids a better life, and look forward to no longer being on welfare. Jerry Springer does not see any benefit to himself by showing their stories. > We feed little > girls an endless stream of smut in the form of entertainment, is it > any reason that they turn into sluts? On this, I agree. > Consider the fountain head of > this torrent of sewage (Hollywood) and then look at who the biggest > supporters of the Democrats were. I just can't how intelligent > people can continue to support this. Their prescription for what ails > the country is more of the same! The entertainment industry also provides some very good products. I'm sure you go to movies, even some you would not want your kids to see. A politician can not ignore a large industry just because it contains some very bad people. Would you expect Bush to ignore the oil industry just because a few people in this industry are polluting the environment? A politician mush work with all people and attempt to bring the bad apples under control. Ed Storms (your science professor) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:02:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32482; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:01:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:02:54 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-reply-to: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216093442.0274d5b0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qOgrX2.0.Sx7.47vEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:47 PM 12/15/2000 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >Given the above, your wave equation is > > A/@t = - grad phi. (1) Hi Michael, I really appreciate your insights into this. Monday, I'll take this up with Puthoff and Ibison and I'll post here a summary of their reaction to your conclusions. I'm pretty sure something is still missing because I've never heard them mention superluminal propagation in connection with this A-phi idea...and Hal never misses any possibility of THAT....:) This is just a guess but maybe we also need to include the Lorentz gauge condition: DEL.A = (1/c^2) phi/@t Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:14:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02454; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:14:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:14:06 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:13:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: A-B communication device Resent-Message-ID: <"U09r11.0.Gc.EJvEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:22 PM -0500 12/11/00, John Winterflood wrote: >It has occured to me that the field outside of a toroidal coil has >vector potential A but no curl (no normal B magnetic field). So if one there is a very good visualization of the formation of the A field around a toroid at http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/ortho1.htm r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:17:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02848; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:16:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:16:30 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:14:33 EST Subject: CD ZPT in update To: EFOUCHE satx.rr.com (E.F.), pgluck@dntcj.ro, HALFOX@aol.com, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com, jgHerbein@email.msn.com, little earthtech.org, editor@infinite-energy.com, patrick.bailey lmco.com, fstenger@suite224.net, storms2 ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms), vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 124 Resent-Message-ID: <"5MiNk2.0.Pi.ULvEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm adding comments and pictures from ANS Washington to my CD ROM. The CD now contains comments and pictures from many leading researches including, Potapov, Storms, Miley, McKurbe, and more. Available from Gene Mallove at IE. Here is a sample of some of the material. from ANS http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/miles.wav http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/mckurbe.wav from COFE http://members.aol.com/fznidarsic/storms.wav Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 08:37:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06025; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:34:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:34:07 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 08:29:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3B9874.1A7CF618 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <20001216041830.4779.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"QbvlU2.0.-T1.-bvEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Michael, Yours is the answer that I had been looking for. Although there are refractory materials that can be tailored to emit more strongly in certain IR spectra, on further investigation it appears that the difference is not significant enough to make this idea practical. I can find no bulk material that comes close to being monoenergetic - although there appears to be ongoing research (pumped infared fluorescence) along these lines - and there are filters available that will pass various IR spectra. At least now I can put that one to bed and get on with other things. Jones Michael Schaffer wrote: > The big difference between the proposed idea and linear particle > accelerators or e-beam microwave amplifiers and oscillators it that in both > the latter the energy input is highly spatially and temporally coherent (in > linac) or directed and monoenergetic (the others). In thermodynamic terms > this means that the equivalent temperature of the input energy source is > infinite. This same principle is what allows e.g. electric motors with a > theoretical efficiency of 100%. Although thermodynamics is still valid > under these conditions, it is not very interesting for them. > > IR radiation in a hot tube is INCOHERENT radiation. Therefore, you can't > convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency than the > Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum temperatures. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:03:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13472; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:01:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:01:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3BCCE8.8B0 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:13:28 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Sir Clarke's Birthday Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ObRdj1.0.QI3.S_vEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happy 83rd birthday to Sir Arthur C. Clarke! http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/gentrylee/gentry_lee_001215.html Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:50:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23519; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:47:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:47:50 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:50:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000801c06721$1fe29aa0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"GpsIA2.0.Hl5.5hwEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Stephens writes: >The same way public 'education' is supported. The ugly truth is we are all >competing and hate each other beneath our social smiles and handshakes. I suggest this says much more about YOU than about the world in general. In this way, you share the same difficulty most politically correct types have, in that they generally never have met the people they claim to love/hate. Perhaps you should try living in a city for a short while, you might find the situation on the ground to be quite a bit different than what you think it is. It is neither the hell you think, nor the utopia of the equally clueless liberal. It's merely the human condition. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:50:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23947; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:49:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:49:04 -0800 Message-ID: <007001c06790$82e57040$9eb4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: 3M Scotchgard Carpet Protection Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:45:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0674D.55A82700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"K_c001.0.3s5.FiwEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0674D.55A82700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0674D.55A82700 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ Modified=A0C0314A9067C00193 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C0674D.55A82700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:51:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23912; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:48:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:48:57 -0800 Message-ID: <006f01c06790$81e20a00$9eb4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: 3M Press Box - 3M Phasing Out Some of its Specialty Materials Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:44:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0674D.2975C2A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"-5_xo3.0.Yr5.8iwEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0674D.2975C2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0674D.2975C2A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="3M Press Box - 3M Phasing Out Some of its Specialty Materials.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="3M Press Box - 3M Phasing Out Some of its Specialty Materials.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html Modified=80214F289067C001D0 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0674D.2975C2A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 09:58:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25842; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:54:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:54:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Biological Transmutations Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:56:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <034401c0675e$09faec00$b055143f computer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Pi-Nu.0.hJ6.5nwEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Welcome back Fred. I remember reading about this several years back, a French scientist by the name of Kevran proposed this idea (sans LL's) to explain experiments done with chickens. Apparently, when the chickens were deprived calcium but fed copious amounts of mica, they continued to produced calcified eggs. The possible flaw here is that chickens can mobilize a substantial amount of their skeletal calcium to produce eggs, and I don't know what steps were taken to control this. When I lived out in a rural area my neighbors raised chickens for food, but they looked poorly on us crazy scientists so I could never convince them to lend a few animals for the cause. At the time, I did a similar calc and also came up with absurdly high energies, the poor beasts would be glowing white hot if standard theory is applied. I think later work was done with bacteria, which seemed a lot better experimental modality. Either some radically new physics is going on or the experients were flawed. Does anyone have info on replications of this work? K. -----Original Message----- From: tp.sparber [mailto:tp.sparber gateway.net] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 7:43 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations F.J. Sparber wrote: > Number crunching for the reactions: > > 1, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* (or a Hydrino) > > 2, H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + 8.34 Mev (1.33E-12 joule) > > Then for 40 grams of Ca++ (Calcium from Hydrogen and Potassium): > > 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 1.065 joules of heat given off for the production > of 40 grams of Calcium. I blew it. 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 8.0E11 Joules or about 2.0E10 Joules/gram of Calcium formed, or about 20 million btu/gram. According to that, Tyson's chickens have got smoke coming out of their tail ends even with modest Biological Transmutations. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 10:21:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01236; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:41 -0800 Message-ID: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"A1fwX3.0.8J.y8xEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:18:30 > -0800 > (PST): > [snip] > >IR radiation in a hot tube is INCOHERENT radiation. Therefore, you can't > >convert it to another form of energy at any greater efficiency than the > >Carnot efficiency for the system's maximum and minimum temperatures. > [snip] > Could a maser be thermally pumped? Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher energy levels less populated than the lower. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 10:27:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02878; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:25:19 -0800 Message-ID: <20001216182512.20143.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:25:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: A-B communication device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"atLI51.0.ti.EExEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:47:00 > [snip] > >long as they are differentiable. Substitution of (2) into (1) yields the > >dispersion equation for this wave, > > > > v = (dA/du)/(d phi/du) = dA/d phi . (3) > > > >Now we see that the wave velocity depends only on the local ratio of the > >derivatives of A and phi. Strange wave. If you could launch the wave > with > >large enough A / small enough phi the wave speed would exceed c. > > Forgive my ignorance, but what does dA/d phi have to do with the absolute > magnitudes of A and phi? Both A and phi are functions of the phase function u = x - vt. As a simple example, let A = 10u and phi = 2u. Then A = 5 phi, and v = dA/d phi = 5 (m/s if A and phi are expressed in SI units). ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 11:41:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24865; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:38:45 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:39:02 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3cc42d.125265779 mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48@pop.mindspring.com> <3A3B7193.C0365D99@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3A3B7193.C0365D99 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA24834 Resent-Message-ID: <"14Buu1.0.R46.5JyEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 07:43:51 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: >The entertainment industry also provides some very good products. I'm sure >you go to movies, even some you would not want your kids to see. A >politician can not ignore a large industry just because it contains some very >bad people. Would you expect Bush to ignore the oil industry just because a >few people in this industry are polluting the environment? A politician mush >work with all people and attempt to bring the bad apples under control. I can't quite figure out why Bush gets picked on for having his money come from "big oil" when Gore (and his father) got their money the same way (Occidental Petroleum). Both candidates were candidates of big oil. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:02:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29600; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:58:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:58:00 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 06:57:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA29565 Resent-Message-ID: <"VPmCu2.0.QE7.8byEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:30 -0800 (PST): [snip] >Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source >that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater >population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. >HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a >Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher >energy levels less populated than the lower. [snip] My intuition says that this presupposes an equilibrium situation. However if the system is constantly masing (lasing), then energy is being removed from the higher level by that action. If this coherent energy is constantly removed from the system, then why wouldn't the higher levels be resupplied by thermal energy? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:04:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30248; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:01:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:01:16 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c0679b$5b5d3200$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: , Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:04:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Mq6mR2.0.TO7.BeyEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Scott Stephens writes: >>The same way public 'education' is supported. The ugly truth is we are all >>competing and hate each other beneath our social smiles and handshakes. > >I suggest this says much more about YOU than about the world in general. My statement taken out of context does make me sound offensive. I'll more clearly state what I mean. When I say 'hate' I don't mean to deliberately, with malice, conspire to harm others for selfish gain or satisfaction. What I mean can be characterize by attitudes such as: "I've had a hard time, life is hard, why should I 'make' it easier for anyone else?" in contrast to: "How can I make my neighbor feel the way I would like to?" It is very simple to discern such attitudes. Whether a person drops the passengers in a car off at a door, rather than letting them walk through a cold, snowy and slippery parking lot. Whether you tell others knowledge you have acquired you feel is beneficial, or whether you withhold it and spend energy on 'plausible deniability' to excuse the situation if it gets noticed (you are performing better than your coworkers). The attitude behind this depends on a philosophical reference frame. I have heard this ideological references frame described as a 'vertical' relationship to our ideals and a 'horizontal' relationship to our fellows. If we think we experience this life a short time, but part of a greater organism, to realize a destiny a higher power (God) or transcending, physical organizing principle (like the 'strange attractor' in chaos theory), we may act in sacrificial, altruistic ways. Unless we see our fellows are presumptuous predators and fools that will count our virtue as vice. If we believe we are some cosmic accident, with no reason to evolve or degenerate, and no cause greater than our selfishness, we will certainly be more apt to devour rather than cooperate with each other. As we observe the behavior of others over time, we integrate a clear picture of what their attitudes really are. Are there two kinds of creatures? Predators and prey? Those that cooperate (social) and individuals? Those that work for their own food and parasites that steal another creatures food? Those that see the world in opposites and those that don't? >In this way, you share the same difficulty most politically correct types >have, in that they generally never have met the people they claim to >love/hate. ... > Perhaps you should try living in a city for a short while, I've lived in a suburb my whole life and would love to flee it. Maybe I would tire of a solitary rural place faster. I want to find out. I don't care of Orwell's pigs find it easier to manage the animals in the farm rather than the countryside. This critter likes beacon. >It is neither the hell you think, nor the utopia of the equally clueless liberal. It's merely the human condition. Subjective you mean? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:08:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31455; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:06:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:06:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:01:02 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: direct conversion idea To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A3BC9FE.5F7A5CDC pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"OcvMu1.0.Ph7.FjyEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > > Could a maser be thermally pumped? > > Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source > that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater > population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. > HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a > Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher > energy levels less populated than the lower. Perhaps "cannot" is too strong here - as there are high pass IR filters that in theory would allow thermal pumping - and indeed it appears that there are a few researchers who are actively trying to do it. The problem is that the filters are not very efficient ( 60%) nor have they been made robust enough to tolerate the heat would need to be rejected from a high intensity source. It is interesting that a normal silicon solar cell will act as a low to mid pass IR filter and you can get a slightly higher efficiency from solar radiation by using the passed radiation in a second-tier IR photocell cell but those are terribly inefficient so its hardly worth the effort. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:26:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03108; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:23:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:23:43 -0800 Message-ID: <00ce01c067a6$1fa4cce0$9eb4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <3A3BC9FE.5F7A5CDC@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:19:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"R9gyQ3.0.Pm.EzyEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:01 PM Subject: Re: direct conversion idea This smacks of the ou phenomenon at the cathode in Electrolysis Cells. :-) You start out dumping high energy levels in the involved atoms/molecules and then get a constant ou, and "Heat After Death" after you turn off the electrolysis current. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > > Could a maser be thermally pumped? > > > > Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source > > that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater > > population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. > > HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a > > Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher > > energy levels less populated than the lower. > > Perhaps "cannot" is too strong here - as there are high pass IR filters that in > theory would allow thermal pumping - and indeed it appears that there are a few > researchers who are actively trying to do it. > > The problem is that the filters are not very efficient ( 60%) nor have they > been made robust enough to tolerate the heat would need to be rejected from a > high intensity source. > > It is interesting that a normal silicon solar cell will act as a low to mid > pass IR filter and you can get a slightly higher efficiency from solar > radiation by using the passed radiation in a second-tier IR photocell cell but > those are terribly inefficient so its hardly worth the effort. > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 12:26:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03187; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:24:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:24:04 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:24:05 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3dcd4a.127599272 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241@mail.midiowa.net> < a04330108b660c1cfe962 [205.215.192.222]> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA03149 Resent-Message-ID: <"3XnaH2.0.jn.ZzyEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Tom, On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:09:16 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >This discussion reminds me of a discussion that the Canadian's had on >As It Happens from the CBC. The only to guarantee A: that someone >doesn't write a hidden computer program to manipulate the result and >B: guarantee that every vote gets counted it to use paper ballots, >mark them with a pencil, and count they on a local level. Paper ballots allow the possibility of replacing one ballot with another (marked as the voting official wished). "Palming" a ballot and replacing it isn't unknown in the annals of vote fraud. Also, mistakes are much more easily made when hand processing anything. That's why the accounting profession was the first to use tab machines and computers. If the ballots were numbered (again, random, not sequential numbering) and the voter recorded this number -- and the votes were publicly published as with the computer method I mentioned -- then vote fraud could be reduced. There are many ways to have vote fraud. Register more (fake) people to vote, for example (Maine has over a million registered voters with a voting population of under a million -- 106% of the people of voting age are registered.). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:26:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18494; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:16:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:16:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3BCDC8.D7ACE9B6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:17:18 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48@pop.mindspring.com> <3A3B7193.C0365D99@ix.netcom.com> <3a3cc42d.125265779@mail.midiowa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_xUBj3.0.uW4.ekzEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Dean T. Miller" wrote: > Hi Ed, > > On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 07:43:51 -0600, Edmund Storms > wrote: > > >The entertainment industry also provides some very good products. I'm sure > >you go to movies, even some you would not want your kids to see. A > >politician can not ignore a large industry just because it contains some very > >bad people. Would you expect Bush to ignore the oil industry just because a > >few people in this industry are polluting the environment? A politician mush > >work with all people and attempt to bring the bad apples under control. > > I can't quite figure out why Bush gets picked on for having his money > come from "big oil" when Gore (and his father) got their money the > same way (Occidental Petroleum). Both candidates were candidates of > big oil. True enough. However, Bush is active in this area and presently obtains his support from such people. In addition, he is fighting to open up the wildlife reserves in Alaska to oil drilling, not exactly a neutral position. Gore, on the other hand, argued against this approach as well are arguing for the use of alternative energy sources. Gore may have his faults, but this is not one of them. > > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:26:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20410; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:24:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:24:37 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:23:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA20363 Resent-Message-ID: <"YANON1.0.q-4.LszEw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:30 -0800 (PST): [snip] >Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source >that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater >population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. >HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a >Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher >energy levels less populated than the lower. [snip] See also http://newton.ex.ac.uk/aip/glimpse.txt/physnews.100.2.html for a possible way around this requirement. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:52:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25188; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:48:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:48:43 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001215210515.00a5a4a0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:27:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations In-Reply-To: References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"orpnI1.0.Q96.xC-Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:06 AM 12/15/00 -0600, you wrote: > >There would be several reasons (excluding errors made by experimenters) a > >device > >appearing overunity can not self sustain in a closed loop. I am focusing on > >experiments producing directly electrical output. > >***{In other words, you are talking about devices that run off of >electrical power input, and produce electrical power output, right? --MJ}*** This is why I recommend that anybody who has a device that appears to be operating in an over unity condition aggressively seek assistance from skeptical electrical engineers or technicians who know how to measure electrical power. It is often very tricky and even with a sine or near sine wave very large errors can be made. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 13:52:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25389; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:49:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:49:51 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-B communication device Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:49:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001216182512.20143.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001216182512.20143.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA25364 Resent-Message-ID: <"JqoiJ3.0.dC6._D-Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:25:12 -0800 (PST): [snip] >> Forgive my ignorance, but what does dA/d phi have to do with the absolute >> magnitudes of A and phi? > >Both A and phi are functions of the phase function u = x - vt. As a simple >example, let A = 10u and phi = 2u. Then A = 5 phi, and v = dA/d phi = 5 >(m/s if A and phi are expressed in SI units). [snip] Ok, but aren't you making a number of assumptions about linear relationships here, and is this necessarily so? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:22:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01523; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:16:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001216171358.0079ee50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:13:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: References: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ndtg_.0.jN.Bd-Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >This discussion reminds me of a discussion that the Canadian's had on >As It Happens from the CBC. The only to guarantee A: that someone >doesn't write a hidden computer program to manipulate the result and >B: guarantee that every vote gets counted it to use paper ballots, >mark them with a pencil, and count they on a local level. That system can be corrupted! It often was, in the old days. In a district with a population over ~5,000 you can stuff a few hundred extra votes into the ballot box and the voters would not know. To keep the numbers balanced, you have to fill in the sign-in sheets with fake names or dead people, or forged signatures next to no-shows. In a properly run district, poll watchers from both parties and elaborate procedures prevent this kind of thing. In a sloppy district, the ballot box and sign in sheets might be left unguarded, or a poll watcher might be paid off. In one Florida district, the person in charge improperly filled in hundreds of incomplete Repubican write-in ballots and left the Democratic ones "in a pile on her desk," as she testified. It is shocking that pile of ballots was left on a desk. It is scandalous that she was able to do that without the knowledge of a Democratic poll watcher. No manual or computerized voting system would be safe in such a poorly run district. I think a computerized system should have elaborate manual cross checking, signature taking, a paper trail and so on. This makes it a hybrid computer / manual system, which is difficult to manipulate with a computer program or with old-fashioned vote stuffing. This has many disadvantages. It is slow, cumbersome, it wastes paper, voters have to wait on line, it generates lots of busy-work checking signatures and ID cards, and it does not allow people to vote from other cities, or use stand-alone kiosk voting machines like ATMs, or vote via Internet. I think such futuristic features should not be implemented, because of the security concerns. Perhaps when computers are intelligent and voice recognition security is foolproof we can start doing these things. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 14:27:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03110; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:24:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:24:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001216172448.0079bbe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:24:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: <3a3dcd4a.127599272 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rrq3Q1.0.Wm.Rk-Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >Also, mistakes are much more easily made when hand processing >anything. That's why the accounting profession was the first to use >tab machines and computers. The U.S. Census Bureau was first! Herman Hollerith invented the tabulating machines and punch cards for the Bureau to process the 1890 census. The Army was the first to use computers, followed by the Census Bureau, followed by big business accountants a few years later. >If the ballots were numbered (again, random, not sequential numbering) >and the voter recorded this number -- and the votes were publicly >published as with the computer method I mentioned -- then vote fraud >could be reduced. > >There are many ways to have vote fraud. Register more (fake) people >to vote, for example (Maine has over a million registered voters with >a voting population of under a million -- 106% of the people of voting >age are registered.). Looking at a list of random numbers and recorded votes, how would you know that a thousand of them were not made up or assigned to dead people? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:01:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11931; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3BF25A.859 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:53:14 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-B communication device References: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"V_rBA2.0.Lw2.4D_Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > It's all from standard Maxwell eqns + the definition of the > potentials. Variations in phi are possible without any E at all. This > follows from the definitions of phi (the scalar potential) and A (the > vector potential) > > E = - DEL(phi) - A/@t > > B = DEL X A > Rather than E=0 and B=0, maybe try it this way: E = - del(Phi) - dA/dt = Constant B = (del)X(A) = 0. An oscillating monopole having constant charge but time varying physical diameter -- i.e. a charged balloon with varying internal pressure, will have constant radial E field and no B field. Yet there is a disturbance in the scalar and vector potentials due to the finite time delay in propagation from the near side and far side of the balloon. Not a TEM wave. Propagation velocity of longitudinal EM disturbance is unknown. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:02:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08529; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:45:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:45:58 -0800 Message-ID: <014801c067b9$ffdf2a40$9eb4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20001216181930.8246.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:43:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8QG6X2.0.652.c2_Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 1:23 PM Subject: Re: direct conversion idea Robin wrote: > In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:19:30 -0800 > (PST): > [snip] > >Masers and lasers cannot be thermally pumped. They need an energy source > >that selectively populates a particular high energy level to a greater > >population than the lower energy level to which the system can decay. > >HOwever, thermal systems populate energy levels in accordance with a > >Maxwell-Boltzman probability distribution, which always leaves the higher > >energy levels less populated than the lower. This applies to "Monochromatic or Multi-Level Pumping". In the continuous spectrum of atoms/molecules there can be hundreds of Metastable States where thermal pumping can push the electrons up to higher energy states where they can drop towards the ground state giving "AntiStokes" radiation (shorter wavelength) and/or heat (pseudo over-unity). > [snip] > See also http://newton.ex.ac.uk/aip/glimpse.txt/physnews.100.2.html for a > possible way around this requirement. > Regards, Frederick > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 15:26:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16419; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:21:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:21:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3BFC28.72C7E4B2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:35:04 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: CFRL News No.19] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lrL2f3.0.P04.9a_Ew" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: CFRL News No.19 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:41:53 -0800 From: "Hideo Kozima," To: ¬“‡ ‰p•v CFRL English News No. 19 (December 10, 2000) Cold Fusion Research Laboratory Prof. Hideo Kozima. This is CFRL News (in English) No. 19 translated from Japanese version published for friend researchers of Cold Fusion Research Laboratory directed by Dr. H. Kozima now in Portland State University. The e-mail address in PSU is cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu. In this issue, there are following news, 1) A new paper published in J. New Energy Vol. 5 (2000), 2) On the "Coulomb lattice" of neutron and proton clusters, 3) G. Miley*s Comments in Fusion Technology Vol. 38 (2000). Details of Russian Conference announced in the preceding issue will be given in the next issue. 1) H. Kozima, "TNCF MODEL | A Possible Explanation of Cold Fusion Phenomenon", J. New Energy Vol. 5, p. 68 (2000). Abstract The TNCF model with a single adjustable parameter for the cold fusion phenomenon (CFP), a complicated phenomenon composed of various events occurring in complex systems, is explained as an example of the phenomenological approach with several Premises based on experimental facts. Applied to many selected data sets, the model has given consistent explanations of CFP and therefore the Premises of the model may be taken as reflections of some phases of physics in the materials where occurred CFP. Selection of more than 60 data sets explained by the TNCF model has a statistical meaning even if each data set may include some faults or errors in it. Physical bases of the Premises are investigated upon physics of neutrons in solids. In this issue of J. New Energy, there is another paper by Japanese researcher R. Notoya the title of which is as follows; R. Notoya, T. Ohnishi and Y. Noya, "Products of Nuclear Processes caused by Electrolysis on Nickel and Platinum Electrodes in Solutions of Alkali-metallic Ions" J. New Energy Vol. 5, p. 88 (2000) 2) About "Coulomb lattice" of neutron and proton clusters in neutron star matter and in solids. In the study of neutrons in solids, I have studied two papers written about 30 years ago which suggest important properties of neutrons at sub-nuclear densities. [1] G. Baym, H.A. Bethe and C.J. Pethick, "Neutron Star Matter" Nuclear Physics A175, 225 - 271 (1971). [2] J.W. Negele and D. Vautherin, "Neutron Star Matter at Sub-nuclear Densities" Nuclear Physics A207, 298 - 320 (1973). i) Neutron Star Matter In these papers, formation of clusters including neutrons and protons in neutron matter (how it resembles to the formation of neutron drops proposed by me in the paper appeared in Fusion Technology Vol. 37, p. 253, 2000, last Spring) is proved by variational calculation. First of all, following sentence shocked me ([1]p.249); "----- This modification of A (nucleon number in a cluster of neutron and proton) due to lattice interactions strikingly illustrates the subtle interplay between nuclear and solid-state physics that takes place in neutron stars." These papers appeared when the neutron star had been recognized as reality for the first time tried to determine the stationary state of neutron matters by variational principle. Spatial distribution of neutrons, formation of clusters with N neutrons and Z protons (and Z electrons) with definite ratio of Z/N, stability of neutrons against beta decay are discussed. Main interactions between particles are the nuclear interaction between nucleons and the electromagnetic interaction between charged particles. At first, stability of neutrons against beta decay is proved. Then, it is shown the "Coulomb lattice" of neutron and proton with a definite ratio of Z/N (<<1) is more stable than a uniform distribution of the neutron star matter at sub-nuclear density. This "lattice" is similar to crystal lattices composed of atoms and the sentence cited above was written by the authors of the first paper [1]. In the Coulomb lattice (crystal lattice), clusters (atoms) are in a lattice with a lattice constant a which depend on the density of the neutron matter (radius of atoms). In a cluster, Z/N is smaller than 1 and reaches less than 0.1. Distribution of neutrons in the cluster is wider than that of protons more pronounced but similarly to that in exotic nuclei. In the limit of large density, the lattice constant a becomes zero and the Z/N also approaches zero forming a neutron star. Applicability of this calculation for lower density seems to about 10^{30} cm^{-3} or less. This is interesting for the investigation of CFP from our point of view. ii) TNCF Model Now, we turn to our TNCF model. In the TNCF model, it was assumed existence of trapped thermal neutrons in solids and its nominal density has been determined using experimental data sets as 10^{8} - 10^{13} cm^{-3}. Several questions raised to this model were as follows; a) Stability of trapped neutrons against beta decay, b) Appropriateness of the determined value of the density given above, c) Source of these trapped neutrons, d) Possible explanation of gammaless de-excitation in CFP by TNCF model, etc. etc. etc. It is clear that some of these questions have been resolved already by the calculations in the papers [1][2] in relation with stable composition of neutron star matter at sub-nuclear densities if we notice a possible existence of high-density neutrons realized by the local coherence at boundary region pointed out in one of our papers appeared in Fusion Technology (Vol. 36, p. 337, 1999) Here, we point out possible explanation for only one problem of gammaless de-excitation. In the ordinary nuclear physics, the nuclei are isolated fundamentally and its interaction with another particle if any occurs in short limited time. Or, if a many body problem is taken up, a nucleus is a part of the system and has no identity as we can see in the papers [1][2] cited above. Therefore, the situation occurring in CFP is so different from those treated in nuclear physics where nuclei keeps their identity while interacting with others. In CFP, there are several decay channels in the excited nuclei existing in the material used there and gammaless de-excitation is not special but usual modes of de-excitation. Similar explanation of events in CFP is possible from our point of view while ordinary nuclear physics could not give explanation for such events as the decay-time shortening and fission barrier lowering assumed to explain nuclear products in CFP. The successful perspective given above is a merit of exchanging relationship between different branches to explore a new branch of science. 3) George Miley*s "Comments" Fusion Technology Vol. 38, p. iii (2000) " It is with deep sadness that I retire in June 2001 as editor of Fusion Technology (FT). Despite the extensive time involvement, I have immensely enjoyed serving as editor. Discussions with authors and reviewers were continuously stimulating, and I always enjoyed a feeling of satisfaction from providing this service to the fusion community and to the American Nuclear Society (ANS). There were, of course, a few downsides, largely concerned with occasional financial struggles, debates over rejected manuscripts, and continued attempts to control paper backlogs that slowly oscillated back and forth from being either too large or too small as circumstances in the fusion community changed. ------ Inclusion of papers on "cold fusion" (or anomalous nuclear reactions in solids) in FT has been one of the more controversial decisions I made as editor of FT. Rather than rehash the issues involved, I would simply repeat my view expressed in an early preface that it is the "responsibility of a journal to publish scientific work related to its field of coverage that can pass through peer reviews." Indeed, all papers on this topic in FT have undergone a rigorous peer review. In the early years (1987- 1990) following Pons and Fleischmann*s original announcement, reviewers ensured that the papers were technically sound but allowed speculations about mechanisms since the field was so new. However, starting in 1990, as the field matured, review standards reverted to the same guidelines as other papers in FT. Further, based on discussions in the FT Editorial Advisory Committee, an additional reviewer from outside the "cold fusion community" was typically added on these manuscripts. Readers who are interested in more detail about events during this period from my point of view as an editor are referred to an article titled "Some Personal Reflections on Scientific Ethics and the Cold Fusion 'Episode' " that I prepared for a fall issue of the Journal on Accountability in Research Policies and Quality Assurance, Vol. 8, No. 1 (2000)." As was stated in the first paragraph in the above Comments, G. Miley is going retire from the Editor of Fusion Technology by June, 2001. His successor will be Dr. Nermin Uckan. It is not certain yet but we would like to hope that his policy for "cold fusion" will be kept by the new Editorial Board. It is true that ideas presented in the field of CFP is in full variety from using ordinary physics to those of new ones ignoring principles of physics easily or thinking similarly to UFO and supernatural phenomenon. But, it is the undeniable fact that there occur events showing bio-nuclear transmutation in bodies of some plants and animals even if someone tries to explain bio-nuclear transmutation by assuming a micro-cyclotron in a living cell which contradicts principles of physics. -------------------------------------------------- Visiting Professor of Physics at Portland State University Professor Emeritus at Shizuoka University Dr. Hideo Kozima Office: Physics Department, PSU, P.O. Box 751, Portland, Oregon 97207-0751 Tel. 503-725-4222, Fax. 503-725-3888 E-mail. cf-lab.kozima pdx.edu CFRL web-site; www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~kunihito/cf-lab/index.html ------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:12:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07044; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:08:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:08:04 -0800 Message-ID: <006e01c067c7$72072e80$af78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" , "energy21" Subject: Question Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:19:45 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006B_01C0679D.880AA7E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TXTj82.0.-j1.q71Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C0679D.880AA7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Anyone know who might be using "Old style Arpanet" ? It showed up = just that way in my tracker, where it usually shows the country of the = visitor. MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C0679D.880AA7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
   Anyone know who might be = using=20 "Old style Arpanet" ? It showed up just that way = in my=20 tracker, where it usually shows the country of the=20 visitor.
MJ
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C0679D.880AA7E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:19:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09255; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:17:25 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:17:42 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a3f13ea.145681631 mail.midiowa.net> References: <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop.mindspring.com > <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <3.0.6.32.20001216172448.0079bbe0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001216172448.0079bbe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA09235 Resent-Message-ID: <"7D0qW.0.XG2.bG1Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:24:48 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Dean T. Miller wrote: >>There are many ways to have vote fraud. Register more (fake) people >>to vote, for example (Maine has over a million registered voters with >>a voting population of under a million -- 106% of the people of voting >>age are registered.). > >Looking at a list of random numbers and recorded votes, how would you know >that a thousand of them were not made up or assigned to dead people? You don't. That's why audit trails and other accounting procedures are needed for the entire voting process. From what I can gather from the news reports, these procedures aren't followed very well. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 17:31:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12297; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:29:58 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:30:18 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a4015c0.146151741 mail.midiowa.net> References: <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0@m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60@pop.mindspring.com> < 3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <3.0.6.32.20001216171358.0079ee50@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001216171358.0079ee50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA12271 Resent-Message-ID: <"g5xdl.0.303.MS1Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:13:58 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > In one Florida >district, the person in charge improperly filled in hundreds of incomplete >Repubican write-in ballots and left the Democratic ones "in a pile on her >desk," as she testified. Testified where? I was following all the court cases, and never did I hear of any ballots left anywhere. Perhaps you're referring to the *applications* for absentee ballots? The applications would come in, and any applications that had problems would be put into a box, the rest would be processed. People sending in problem applications would be contacted -- except specifically for the Republican applications with the computer problem where it was known in advance that they wouldn't have the voter ID number. Pre-arrangements were made to have the ID number added to the application (the Democrat applications didn't have the problem). All applications, Republican, Democrat and other, were left on a desk (or in a box on a table) until processed. >It is shocking that pile of ballots was left on a >desk. It is scandalous that she was able to do that without the knowledge >of a Democratic poll watcher. No manual or computerized voting system would >be safe in such a poorly run district. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 18:07:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20816; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:06:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:06:08 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001216194558.00ab15a0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:14:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: 'Going to hell in a handbasket' hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001213104300.00bfaa48 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3LVR-1.0.655.G-1Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:38 PM 12/15/00 -0600, you wrote: >This discussion motivates me to write. I don't understand why intelligent >people support the agenda of the Democrats. I have the upmost regard for >Edmund's intelligence, he reminds me of my college science professors. >However they, (the Democrats) have instituted one failed social >engineering sceme after another. I don't have a problem with the >government spending money, but I hate to see them waste it. I have found that many people will choose as there parents have and never bother to check things out for themselves. Also many people will go with what the news media tells them and choose based on that information only. It is not a reflection on an individuals intelligence but rather a marker that he / she does not spend there time researching political matters. For some it is a waist of time to do so as there time and talent is better spent elsewhere. This forms a base structure of voters that will always support there party which ever party that may be. Others of us are more concerned with the political structure and find benefits ether long or short term in researching platforms policy and candidates. We take special time away from our work in order to research these matters and vote accordingly. We will not all agree, we will not all vote the same, and that is exactly why this system works. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 22:34:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10616; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:33:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:33:44 -0800 Message-ID: <009601c067f4$f0003340$6178add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotive Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:45:08 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0093_01C067CA.FD252AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CL2Uf1.0.nb2.8v5Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C067CA.FD252AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Link: http://depts.washington.edu/fuelcell/ ;-> MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C067CA.FD252AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Link: http://depts.washington.ed= u/fuelcell/
 
;->
MJ
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C067CA.FD252AA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 16 22:54:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14102; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:52:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:52:14 -0800 Message-ID: <00b401c067f7$87bbf8c0$6178add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: A little christmas present for everyone... Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:03:43 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C067CD.959991C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"cwKx3.0.GS3.UA6Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C067CD.959991C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, A friend sent me this link. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C067CD.959991C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
   A friend sent me this = link. I hope you=20 enjoy it as much as I did.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg=
MJ
 
 
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C067CD.959991C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 07:02:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12913; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 07:00:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 07:00:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:02:31 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: hydrino egroups.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-Us4X2.0.g93.QKDFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At long last, we have something to say about the first run in our efforts to make a high-fidelity replication of Mills light water Ni electrolysis experiments. Unfortunately, the story is not nearly as definitive as it should have been. In fact, we cannot say whether or not this particular experiment showed excess heat. The problem area is the measurement of the flow rate of electrolysis gases escaping from the cell. Frankly, our flow measurement results are mysterious. Full details of this mystery are presented in the report: http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/run1.html I urge all interested parties to read this report and help us figure out what is going on! Thanks in advance. I look forward to the discussion. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 08:27:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27175; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:22:23 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01c06845$5c661540$40b4f1c3 vannoorden> From: "Peter van Noorden" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:21:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ealgj1.0.Te6._WEFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 4:02 PM Subject: HiFi replication: Run 1 > At long last, we have something to say about the first run in our efforts > to make a high-fidelity replication of Mills light water Ni electrolysis > experiments. > > Unfortunately, the story is not nearly as definitive as it should have > been. In fact, we cannot say whether or not this particular experiment > showed excess heat. The problem area is the measurement of the flow rate > of electrolysis gases escaping from the cell. > > Frankly, our flow measurement results are mysterious. Full details of > this mystery are presented in the report: > > http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/run1.html > > I urge all interested parties to read this report and help us figure out > what is going on! > > Thanks in advance. I look forward to the discussion. > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org > > Hello Scott, In your replication of the Mills experiment only 24 meters of nickel wire is used . From R.Mills I understood that he used 5000 meters in order to increase the reaction surface . Could that be an explanation for the difference in excess heat measurement ? Concerning the "impossible part " : Could it be that there is recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen gasses in the Hg what is of course not seen when using ordinary water? BTW what is normally seen in electrolytic experiments when Hg is used to measure the gasflow ? Kind regards Peter van Noorden pjvannrd knmg.nl From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 08:46:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30802; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:25 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:46:16 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-reply-to: <004f01c06845$5c661540$40b4f1c3 vannoorden> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217104053.0229f698 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"S3VL72.0.CX7.erEFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:21 PM 12/17/2000 +0100, Peter van Noorden wrote: >In your replication of the Mills experiment only 24 meters of nickel wire is >used . From R.Mills I understood that he used 5000 meters in order to >increase the reaction surface . Could that be an explanation for the >difference in excess heat measurement ? Mills DID use 24 meters in the particular experiment we are trying to replicate. It was another series of experiments (#4-14 in the Table 1 I presented from Mills book) that employed the huge 5000 m cathode. >Concerning the "impossible part " : Could it be that there is recombination >of the hydrogen and oxygen gasses in the Hg what is of course not seen when >using ordinary water? Possible....but not very likely. I forgot to mention that I conducted a separate measurement using water as a fluid but with a substantial amount of Hg metal present in the flow passageway to provide a surface for such a reaction...the Hg metal had no effect. >BTW what is normally seen in electrolytic experiments when Hg is used to >measure the gasflow ? That's a good question. I expect it to show the same thing as water does...i.e. typically about 103% of the expected gas flow rate is observed, the excess being due to water vapor leaving the warm cell. However, I have never measured that. I will do that next week just to make sure. Thanks for the stimulating questions. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 09:54:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16102; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:53:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:53:57 -0800 Message-ID: <008f01c06853$f691d2e0$aa7aadd1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Answer regarding DuPont Membrane Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:05:37 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008C_01C0682A.0C5B5080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ddHaa.0.Sx3.rsFFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C0682A.0C5B5080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I asked the person who made the initial Deutrium comment regarding a = DuPont membrane which several people asked for specifics about and his = reply is below. MJ The catalytic membrane, also used in dialysis, has long since evolved = into the fuel cell. You may remember it was used on the Apollo Missions for power and Oxygen, it also cause the = explosion on #13 when it was mistreated during the "Stirring Process". Indeed it will be used to = power your cars within the next few years I would think. Have a Look: < = http://www.sandia.gov/materials/sciences/factsheets/CatalyticMembrane.htm= l > Again, --- no free lunch, but at least it is much cleaner! As stated, = hydrogen in nature is always very tightly bound to other elements, (Hydrocarbons, hydroxides, OPEC, etc. ) = and you cannot separate them without due effort or money! http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C0682A.0C5B5080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
  I asked the person who made the = initial=20 Deutrium comment regarding a DuPont membrane which several people asked = for=20 specifics about and his reply is below.
MJ
The catalytic membrane, also used in dialysis, has long since = evolved into=20 the fuel cell. You may remember it
was used on the Apollo Missions = for power=20 and Oxygen, it also cause the explosion on #13 when it was
mistreated = during=20 the "Stirring Process". Indeed it will be used to power your cars within = the=20 next few years
I would think. Have a Look:

< http://www.sandia.gov/materials/sciences/factsheets/CatalyticM= embrane.html=20 >

 Again, --- no free lunch, but at least it is much=20 cleaner!  As stated, hydrogen in nature is always very
tightly = bound to=20 other elements, (Hydrocarbons, hydroxides, OPEC, etc. ) and you cannot = separate=20 them without
due effort or money!
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C0682A.0C5B5080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:13:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02729; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:13:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:13:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A326BE4.46B1B002 groupz.net> References: Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:11:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Why Ebola Doesn't Compute Resent-Message-ID: <"zfWw.0.Zg.41HFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Hi Steve. Sorry for the delay in responding. I have very little time for posting nowadays, and tend to get behind. (By the way, I have moved your comment to place it after the comment you were criticizing. See below.) --MJ}*** > > In an earlier thread, I attempted to clarify why I found it difficult to > > accept the conventional interpretation of Ebola and similar diseases, and > > wound up being accused of the multiple redefinition of terms by a proponent > > of the conventional interpretation. Well, I have reflected on the subject a > > bit more, and have decided to make one last effort at conveying my point. > > > > In the conventional view, Ebola is an "emergent virus" in the sense that it > > has only recently been recognized by Western medicine, but has in fact > > supposedly been around for eons, confined to some unknown host species in > > darkest Africa. > > > > In my view, that doesn't compute. Ebola is a highly contagious disease with > > a mortality rate which varies between 50 and 90 percent, and in a > > significant proportion of sufferers, the symptoms are spectacular: the > > afflicted person bleeds from every bodily orifice, and then dies. When > > someone contacts the "unknown host species," somewhere out in the jungle, > > the disease incubates for a couple of weeks, giving him plenty of time to > > interact with other human beings and spread the virus. And during the > > period of overt illness, his body is literally covered with the virus > > particles: they ooze from every sweat gland and bleeding lesion on his > > body. Result: an epidemic in which the disease wipes out all or most of the > > man's family, then all or most of his village, etc. > > > > The implication: this is not a disease that is capable of passing > > unnoticed. Since people have been living in Africa for millions of years, > > and since Western medicine has had a presence in Africa for about 200 > > years, any Ebola outbreak in Africa in the last 200 years could not have > > gone unnoticed. Thus either there was not a single human contact with the > > host species until 1974 or so (the time of the first recorded Ebola > > outbreak) despite the ubiquitous human presence in Africa for eons, or else > > this virus was not present there very much prior to 1974. > >Have you considered it may have mutated...to where >it could cross species...??? > >steve > ***{Yes, that possibility crossed my mind. The problem is that mutations are random, and that mutations which do not interfere with the functionality of an organism tend to be very small. Result: when the host species and the target species are so dissimilar that the transmissibility from the former to the latter is *zero*, mutations within the original host are not going to change that state of affairs. Thus when a virus jumps across species, it is virtually without exception due to the fact that the chemical environment within the two species is so similar that a non-zero transmission rate is the norm. But if the transmission rate is greater than zero, then frequent contact between the two species will result in an occasional transmissive episode, and, because viruses go through thousands of generations during the course of proliferating within a single infected individual, tiny random mutations during that episode can have cumulative effects. In those cases, the first such tiny mutation would give a small reproductive advantage to the viruses that carried it, and when they had proliferated into the billions, another tiny mutation would occur giving a second incremental advantage, enabling the bearers of both mutations to proliferate into the billions, and so on, until by virtue of a lengthy succession of such mutations, the virus had adapted to a new type of host. But note what that means: it means the adaptive impact of mutations occurs *after transmission to a target species*, not before. The reason: mutations that enhance survivability within the target species are contraproductive when they occur within the original host, and are weeded out. Adaptation to such a radically different environment would require a series of small mutations, with each of them conferring a reproductive advantage on its own. However, inside the original host species, each would confer a reproductive disadvantage, rather than an advantage, because they would render the virus less suited to the environment it was in. Bottom line: I see no way to explain Ebola by postulating that the transmission rate between the host species and humans was zero until enhanced by a random mutation within the host species. In my view, we have to assume that the transmission rate was greater than zero. However, if we assume that, then the presence of humans in those areas for thousands of years renders it quite inexplicable that the virus only cropped up very recently, unless we assume that the virus was not there until recently. But if we assume that, then we are pulled inexorably in the direction of extraterrestrial origin. While I am not yet convinced that this is the strongest line of argument, it is surely compelling enough to merit continued examination. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > Is it plausible that there is some host species in darkest Africa that has > > harbored this virus for 200 years without transmitting it to a European > > visitor? Yes. Is it plausible that there is a host species in darkest > > Africa that has harbored it for 200 years without transmitting it to one of > > the natives? I think not, though I would hesitate to say it is utterly > > impossible. Perhaps the probability of such non-transmission might be as > > high as 1 in 100, and so the conventional theory would seem, at first > > glance, to be possible though rather unlikely. > > > > However, when we consider other highly contagious hemorrhagic fevers with > > high mortality rates--e.g., Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian > > hemorrhagic fever, Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever, etc.--that likewise could > > not have gone unnoticed and which are also supposed to be explained by the > > conventional theory, I find the math to be unbelievable. If the average > > probability of non-transmission to humans of these various diseases, prior > > to 1950 say, is .01, then the probability that *none* of them would >have vortex-l eskimo.com > > been transmitted to humans, and, thus, noticed by Western medicine, becomes > > (.01)^4 = 10^-8 for the four examples listed, taken together. > > > > If there is a hole in this reasoning, what is it? > > > > --Mitchell Jones > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that > > voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in > > precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:17:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03667; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:17:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:17:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001217141712.0079ea90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:17:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology In-Reply-To: <3a4015c0.146151741 mail.midiowa.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20001216171358.0079ee50 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m> <5.0.0.25.2.20001212113345.00c29d40 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214170730.00c31308 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001214181159.00c30d60 pop.mindspring.com> <3a3a97a8.1542710241 mail.midiowa.net> <3.0.6.32.20001216171358.0079ee50 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jz_bG.0.Dv.r4HFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is getting seriously off topic, but Dean T. Miller wrote: >> In one Florida >>district, the person in charge improperly filled in hundreds of incomplete >>Repubican write-in ballots and left the Democratic ones "in a pile on her >>desk," as she testified. > >Testified where? I was following all the court cases, and never did I >hear of any ballots left anywhere. I believe that was the response Sandra Goard made during the case that was thrown out of court last week. She and her co-workers fixed the Republican ballots, but left the Democractic ones. I recall she was asked what happened to the Democratic ones and she said something like "they are still there, in a pile." Here are related quotes about the incident from a N. Y. Times article. (I quote the times because their stacks search tool works better and it is cheaper at $2.50 per hit than other major newspapers, not because I think they more credible.) >Perhaps you're referring to the *applications* for absentee ballots? >The applications would come in, and any applications that had problems >would be put into a box, the rest would be processed. No, it was ballots in this case. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - November 18, 2000, Saturday National Desk COUNTING THE VOTE: SEMINOLE COUNTY; G.O.P.'s Help for Absentees In a County Is in Court, Too QUOTES: . . . That is not what happened in Seminole. Sandra Goard, the elections supervisor, said that after rejecting the Republican ballot requests as invalid, she allowed two of the party's workers to sit in her offices for as long as 10 days to write the voter identification numbers on the flawed cards. In an interview this week, Ms. Goard held up one of the cards. Scrawled in red ink was the applicant's voter number. The card had been mailed by Mark Langford, a 22-year-old biology major who is away from home at Palm Beach Atlantic College. He said he was not aware his card had been fixed by party representatives, but he commended the move. ''Very efficient,'' Mr. Langford said. ''They saw the problem. It worked. We all got what we needed.'' Ms. Goard has also acknowledged that, in the weeks before the election, she let other incomplete ballot applications from individual voters pile up in her office because she was too busy to notify the people who had sent them that they had been rejected. Ms. Goard said that Florida law does not obligate her to assist voters in completing a flawed application. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 11:28:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06036; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:25:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:25:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001217142507.007a8c40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:25:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Changing voting technology, or any technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wgij2.0.DU1.WCHFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops! I am sorry, I got this mixed up with another case, and copied out part of the article, which confirms exactly what Dean said. To recap . . . I wrote: This is getting seriously off topic, but Dean T. Miller wrote: >> In one Florida >>district, the person in charge improperly filled in hundreds of incomplete >>Repubican write-in ballots and left the Democratic ones "in a pile on her >>desk," as she testified. > >Testified where? I was following all the court cases, and never did I >hear of any ballots left anywhere. I believe that was the response Sandra Goard made during the case that was thrown out of court last week. She and her co-workers fixed the Republican ballots, but left the Democractic ones. . . . Dean is correct, these were ballot *applications*, not the actual ballots. I read of another incident in which the ballots themselves were corrected, but I do not have the details. At least, not on this computer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 12:47:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25384; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:43:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:43:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:43:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: mjones jump.net Subject: Bill vs. Mitch: hostility, pseudoskepticism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA25297 Resent-Message-ID: <"IA9YI.0.TC6.oLIFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add > > up to Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is > > something I try to take action against if I notice it appearing on > > Vortex-L. > > ***{That sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't think it is what you > are doing in the present instance. The issue of my motivations is a distraction, so please it aside temporarily. Did you hear what I said? > My view of the situation is that you have found it to be very difficult > to make headway while arguing with me, and are treating that as a > perceived affront to your supposed kingly status. So you feel singled out for "moderation" because of our past debates. That's certainly valid. I *AM* singling you out, but not for the reprehensible motives that you attribute to me. (I’ll take up the issue of my motives later.) I did find it difficult to make headway with you, so I was going to drop Mpemba discussion as being a worthless uphill battle rather than a simple discussion of science issues. But then I realized, hey, one of your arguments, although acceptable in other arenas, violates both the rules and the central purpose of this forum. I know my own motivations. You can insist that I'm lying to myself, but I know that I'm not dishonestly twisting the rules to "get you." I'm doing the same thing that I have been doing on vortex-L ever since I started it. I'm keeping the group on track by using the actions of a single subscriber to make a point. When I notice a good example of a 'violation', I bring it to the attention of the group to remind everyone what we're here for. If I hadn't had my attention drawn by the debate, your 'violation' would have slipped right by me like many others. I only bring up these issues sporadically, so when it happens, it certainly appears that I’m *selectively* punishing a particular individual. So be it. I don’t care what it looks like to others, because I know what it *IS*. Your defense that "Bill and others do it too" is without merit because it's still "against the law" here. You're defense that I myself act closed-minded too is without merit because I'm not objecting to all closed-mindedness in general, instead I'm objecting to your closed- mindedness ABOUT ANOMALOUS EVIDENCE. Your defense that I'm driven by narcissism is without merit because your behavior is still 'against the law' regardless. Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{As I have already pointed out to you, bluntness does not imply > hostility, though people do, in general, tend to be more blunt with > people toward whom they feel hostility. Now *that's* a good point. I didn't know that you had problems with Jed. So, you're only ridiculing *Jed* about polywater, and not ridiculing any other subscribers who take Mpemba effect seriously? If so, this makes a very big difference because Disbelief is a smaller problem here if it is not accompanied by any hostility, or by assumptions that the opposing view is irrational, or by self-righteousness, or by any locked-in viewpoints. I started this "moderation" stuff because I thought you were reacting with hostility TO THE MPEMBA EFFECT; that you were trying to dismiss it based on ignorance, and that you were belittling all Mpemba-supporters as irrational "polywater believers." I thought that you were mildly disgusted by the illogic of their suggestions that the Mpemba-effect evidence could be valid. Is this not the case? OK, granted that the hostility stuff is mostly from your dealings with Jed. But isn't the rest true? If not, then it's my mistake. (By "ignorance" in the above I mean this: taking a position without even looking at the physical evidence.) Also, I was not implying that your behavior was representative. You're misreading that. I was only stating that it was OCCURING. You're smart. Surely you know that a person doesn’t have to be a confirmed pseudoskeptic to occasionally lapse into pseudoskeptical behavior. If I notice even the most anomaly-supportive, long-time subscribers acting like pseudoskeptics and trying to ignore anomalous evidence while ridiculing those who take an anomaly seriously, I will bring this to the group's attention. And I certainly hope that others will do the same if I myself act that way. > Pathological skepticism is an outgrowth of evasion--i.e., of the > determination by evil people to appear to be right, even when > they are wrong, by diverting discussions away from the logic > and evidence that will demonstrate that they are wrong. EXACTLY. If you seriously examine the evidence supporting the Mpemba effect, it might demonstrate your position to be misguided, and show that the effect is actually genuine. You argue that any evidence is irrelevant because logical reasoning shows that it must be a mistake. This is not scientific. To find the hole in logic, scientists see if physical evidence contradicts its conclusions! The opposite is Pathological Skepticism. I think others here will agree, since your sort of argument is VERY familiar. Exactly this argument has been directed against Cold Fusion throughout its history. Anti-CF pseudoskeptics, when evidence from the real world threatens to poke big holes in their reasoning, must become evasive and go find justifications to ignore what the real world is telling them. They essentially say what I think you are saying: "Don't look at the evidence because Logic clearly shows that it must be a mistake!" Such a statement demonstrates ignorance of science. It is the statement of a law student or an expert in debate, not of a scientist. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 14:09:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16335; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:09:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:09:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:09:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: off-topic stuff In-Reply-To: <3A37CA5E.F7D4522B pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QdW8H3.0.8_3.6cJFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jones Beene wrote: [continental drift] > However... Pleeeese ... before overloading Bill B's bandwidth > once again, remember that the subject was pretty well beaten > into a "crust" back then. Bandwidth is fine for eskimo.com, it's the vortex users who I worry about. Many people can't participate on vortex-L because it has too many messages per day. (At least the lurkers can use http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ Maybe I should move it to egroups.com? That way people can receive it as email *OR* treat it like a web-based bulletin board. Please, let's try harder to keep the non-science stuff limited to vortexB. It's not a problem when the list is fairly dead, but right now we have MEG and Mpemba and now Scott's Mills replication. The other threads tend to cause distraction. Yes, vortex-L 's purpose is still to discuss the experimental testing of physics anomalies. :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 17:33:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30470; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:29:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:29:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:29:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA30453 Resent-Message-ID: <"SxBON2.0.0S7.9YMFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:02:31 -0600: [snip] >Frankly, our flow measurement results are mysterious. Full details of >this mystery are presented in the report: > >http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/run1.html > >I urge all interested parties to read this report and help us figure out >what is going on! [snip] Hi Scott, Is it possible that when you did your initial pressure tests the temp of the electrolyte was fairly low, so that the water vapour content was relatively small, and the pressure determined primarily by that of the H2 + O2 directly, while later when you were measuring the flow rate, the temperature was higher, and the water vapour content therefore also higher? Since water vapour simply condenses when put under pressure, 1 cm of mercury could cause all the water vapour to condense leaving only the gasses, and hence a much lower apparent flow rate. (If I've messed this up, feel free to point it out :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 18:43:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15617; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:40:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: HiFi replication: Run 1 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:43:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217104053.0229f698 earthtech.org> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"QaOrR1.0.wp3.aaNFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Back when I tried such things, I seem to remember using a negative pressure head gas collector. That is to say, the pipe was inserted in a tube filled with water in a larger beaker, such that the water was attempting to flow out of the tube with the gas hose for an air inlet. Pretty stock design for gas collection...? When I used this with electrolysis I got a pretty good agreement between product gas and input current*time using a constant current source for the electrolysis and a stopwatch. I would test the seal just letting the thing sit there for a few hours. I could go back and check my notes, but whats the advantage of using the positive pressure system? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 21:36:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25021; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:32:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:32:44 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:31:43 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217232927.02808578 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780@earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"WKkBV.0.p66.x5QFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:29 PM 12/18/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Is it possible that when you did your initial pressure tests the temp of the >electrolyte was fairly low, so that the water vapour content was relatively >small, and the pressure determined primarily by that of the H2 + O2 >directly, while later when you were measuring the flow rate, the temperature >was higher, and the water vapour content therefore also higher? >Since water vapour simply condenses when put under pressure, 1 cm of mercury >could cause all the water vapour to condense leaving only the gasses, and >hence a much lower apparent flow rate. A good thought, Robin, but I've repeated all the tests (shallow water, deep water test, shallow Hg, etc) many times while the electrolyte temperature has remained essentially constant. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 21:54:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27642; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:50:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:50:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:52:26 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: RE: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217233149.02888d00 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217104053.0229f698 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"cffXb.0.ql6.cMQFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:43 PM 12/17/2000 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote: >Back when I tried such things, I seem to remember >using a negative pressure head gas collector. That is to >say, the pipe was inserted in a tube filled with >water in a larger beaker, such that the water >was attempting to flow out of the tube with the >gas hose for an air inlet. Pretty stock design >for gas collection...? When I used this with >electrolysis I got a pretty good agreement between >product gas and input current*time using >a constant current source for the electrolysis >and a stopwatch. I would test the seal just >letting the thing sit there for a few hours. > >I could go back and check my notes, but whats >the advantage of using the positive pressure >system? No advantage other than possibly convenience. It's real easy to just connect the gas tube to the top of the vertically-oriented already-immersed glass tube and start measuring. Besides, I proved with the 30 cm deep water displacement test that small head pressure variations have no noticeable effect on the gas flow rate. Recently, using my "headless" gas flow apparatus, I have tested both slight negative and slight positive backpressures (by slanting the glass tube both uphill and downhill) and there is no significant difference in observed flow rate. The problem is obviously not simply backpressure: observed flow rate against a 1 cm head of water: 1.0 (normalized) observed flow rate against a 13.6 cm head of water: 1.0 observed flow rate against a 1 cm head of Hg: ~0.1 observed flow rate against a 1 mm head of Hg: ~0.1 observed flow rate with "headless" rig: ~5.0 Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 17 23:26:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15868; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:25:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:25:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3DBC2E.564FC2E earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:26:38 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: egroups.com is excellent References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0pc91.0.ot3.FlRFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dec 17 2000 Hello Vorts, egroups.com , now part of Yahoo.com , offers excellent community group services-- I have used them for a year for aspartameNM egroups.com . They will incorportate the entire past archive of Vortex-L, if it moves to them, and the archive is fully searchable by any date, author, subject, or word. Rich Murray > Bandwidth is fine for eskimo.com, it's the vortex users who I worry about. > Many people can't participate on vortex-L because it has too many messages > per day. (At least the lurkers can use http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ > Maybe I should move it to egroups.com? That way people can receive it as > email *OR* treat it like a web-based bulletin board. > > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 01:53:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA26078; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:49:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:49:53 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:49:45 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off-topic stuff Message-ID: <20001218094945.A420 tao.org.uk> References: <3A37CA5E.F7D4522B pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from billb@eskimo.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:09:08PM -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <"E24P9.0.ON6.1tTFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:09:08PM -0800, William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jones Beene wrote: > [continental drift] > > However... Pleeeese ... before overloading Bill B's bandwidth > > once again, remember that the subject was pretty well beaten > > into a "crust" back then. > > > Bandwidth is fine for eskimo.com, it's the vortex users who I worry about. > Many people can't participate on vortex-L because it has too many messages > per day. (At least the lurkers can use http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ > Maybe I should move it to egroups.com? That way people can receive it as > email *OR* treat it like a web-based bulletin board. Sign, don't I know it. I've currently got over 2500 messages that I've not read - mainly because my technical knowledge in the area isn't up to speed enough to know which article I'm really interested in, and which I'm not! :( So I just keep chipping away at the pile, and it keeps growing. I don't know how moving it to egroups will help me though. What I'd really like to see is some kind of FAQ file, and/or, a regular summary of what is being discussed on the list and what's being worked on. This would enable me, and others like me, to be able to read the threads are associated with topics of interest and be able to delete the rest. Joe p.s. I know that no-one's got time to do this though. :(. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 03:07:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA11449; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:07:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:07:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001218190409.00b6d610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:04:09 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001215055738.021320a0 earthtech.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001215180744.00b5d100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213161833.02000308 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001212102214.00b3f610 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210223316.032679a8 earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001211121139.009451b0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210193012.03240ba8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20001210072708.02c730a0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-cM4a.0.po2.c_UFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:04 15/12/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 06:07 PM 12/15/2000 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: > >>Incidentally, if you read Feynman he points out that there is no >>certainty at all for Poyntings formula being the correct expression >>for radiation energy flow and that there are many other candidates. > >Can you give me the Vol & page for that, John. I'm always amazed at what >you can dig up out of Feynman...and this could be very important. Volume 2 of his "Lectures on Physics" page 27-6 or paragraph 27-4. He states that "There are, in fact, an infinite number of different possibilities for the energy density and energy flux vector, and so far no one has thought of an experimental way to tell which one is right ..." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 03:09:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA11483; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:07:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:07:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001218190423.00b6fa90 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:04:23 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: A-B communication device In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216093442.0274d5b0 earthtech.org> References: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9AFI61.0.Lp2.r_UFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:02 16/12/00 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 08:47 PM 12/15/2000 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: > >>Given the above, your wave equation is >> >> A/@t = - grad phi. (1) >>... > >This is just a guess but maybe we also need to include the Lorentz gauge >condition: > > DEL.A = (1/c^2) phi/@t Choosing the Lorentz gauge allows the equations for A and phi to be written as two separated wave equations which without sources become (see Feynman Vol 2, page 18-11) :- (DEL)^2 A = 1/c^2 d^2/dt^2 (A) (from 18.24) (DEL)^2 phi = 1/c^2 d^2/dt^2 (phi) (from 18.25) It seems to me that conventional E-M waves are fully defined by the first equation, and that the A-phi waves are defined by the second (together with the Lorentz gauge equation). This indicates that the velocity of propagation of A-phi waves is expected to be "c" just as it is for conventional E-M waves. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 03:20:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA12827; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:20:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:20:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001218061901.00a1ca00 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:25:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Request for Info In-Reply-To: <20001218094945.A420 tao.org.uk> References: <3A37CA5E.F7D4522B pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"IdPNF2.0.G83.YBVFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! A researcher studying A-grav on another list asked if there was an online reference giving a concise rundown on the dielectric strengths of materials, not just elements, but other materials as well. I seem to recall that Fred S. or Horace posted a link to a reference a long time ago, and I bookmarked it at the time, but lost about 3,000 out of 4,000 bookmarks in one disk mishap, so it is not readily available to me. I still have it in my archives, but it would take forever to find it. Does anyone have that ref handy or perhaps another one? TIA Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 06:52:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20974; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:48:19 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218084559.03815940 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Request for Info In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001218061901.00a1ca00 pop3.atlantic.net> References: <20001218094945.A420 tao.org.uk> <3A37CA5E.F7D4522B pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OLk5q2.0.e75.oEYFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:25 AM 12/18/00 -0500, Michael T. Huffman wrote: >A researcher studying A-grav on another list asked if there was an online >reference giving a concise rundown on the dielectric strengths of >materials, not just elements, but other materials as well. These guys http://www.matweb.com/ have that (and a lot more) for a number of materials...e.g. nylon 6, etc. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 11:47:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22465; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:44:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:44:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> References: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:40:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"r7GIR3.0.wU5.NacFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At long last, we have something to say about the first run in our efforts >to make a high-fidelity replication of Mills light water Ni electrolysis >experiments. > >Unfortunately, the story is not nearly as definitive as it should have >been. In fact, we cannot say whether or not this particular experiment >showed excess heat. The problem area is the measurement of the flow rate >of electrolysis gases escaping from the cell. > >Frankly, our flow measurement results are mysterious. Full details of >this mystery are presented in the report: > >http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/run1.html > >I urge all interested parties to read this report and help us figure out >what is going on! > >Thanks in advance. I look forward to the discussion. ***{Hi Scott. I have copied the pertinent section from your writeup and inserted some comments, below. --MJ}*** > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Inc. >4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 >Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 [copied material follows] > The gas flow measurements were made by immersing a glass tube vertically > into a container of liquid as shown in this photo. ***{A length of flexible tubing presumably connects the gas port on the cell to the top of the glass tube. What is it made of? Does it balloon out noticeably in response to back pressure? If so, then since that volume increase will be occupied by gas that has emerged from the cell, it is part of the total outflow. --MJ}*** The liquid rises up > inside the glass tube matching the level outside. When the gas is > admitted to the upper end of the glass tube, the meniscus between gas and > liquid inside the tube begins to fall, pushed down by the incoming gas. > We simply use a stopwatch and a scale next to the vessel to measure the > time required for the meniscus to fall 1 centimeter. ***{This is akin to sparging steam into a barrel: water vapor in the gas flow is going to condense and blend with the vater in the tube and the container, thereby reducing the significance of the meniscus as an indicator of the flow rate. Are you weighing the water in your jerry-built flowmeter before and after you take measurements of flow rate? --MJ}*** The inside diameter > of this 4 mm glass tubing is 2.23 mm. A 1 cm length of this tubing > therefore has a volume of 0.039 cm3. > > In the early stages of Run 1, we studied the dependence of the gas flow > measurement on backpressure (and explored the possibility that a small > leak was present in the system). We arranged a long glass tube immersed > vertically in 30 cm deep water (in a tall graduated cylinder) and measured > the 1cm drop time at various points throughout the 30 cm depth. In other > words, we measured the exiting gas flow rate while varying the back > pressure from 0 to 30 cm of water. There was no discernible reduction in > flow rate with increasing head pressure. The expected 3% reduction (from > ideal gas consideration of the increasing pressure) was lost among the > ~10% temporal variations. More importantly, the flow rate showed no signs > of stopping even at 30 cm of head pressure, which it surely would have had > there been a small leak in the system. > > Now here's the "impossible" part: When we switched flowmeter liquids from > water to Hg, the observed flowrate decreased dramatically (i.e. by a > factor of ~10), even when the Hg meniscus was <1 cm below the surface of > the Hg in the vessel! This seems impossible because the earlier tests > with 30 cm deep water proved that the gas flow rate was more-or-less > independent of back pressure up to 30 cm of water. ***{Mercury forms amalgams with various metals--e.g., the silver in your fillings. Since hydrogen exhibits metal-like behavior, perhaps it is readily absorbed into mercury. If the hydrogen is flowing into the mercury, then the gas flow rate could be much greater than the meniscus drop would seem to indicate. (Just a thought. :-) --MJ}*** Since Hg is 13.6 times > denser than water, we should therefore expect similar behavior up to a > depth of 2.2 cm in Hg...but no! Something causes the gas flow to > "instantly" reduce by ~10 (suspiciously close to the 13.6 density ratio) > when the liquid is switched from water to Hg. We also tried using methanol > as a flowmeter liquid and, sure enough, the observed flow rates with > methanol (s.g.= 0.8) are about 20% higher than with water. > > Most recently (on a new run), we have started making measurements with a > "headless" measurement system that consists of a horizontal section of the > same 4 mm glass tubing that is sealed by a small "plug" of water. When > the electrolysis gases are fed into the end of this tube, the plug is > forced along horizontally like a liquid piston. If the walls of the tube > are wetted, the plug moves essentially effortlessly. These measurements > indicate a gas flow rate about 5 times higher (i.e. indicating 50% > recombination in the cell) than those obtained from the vertical tube > apparatus with water as a working fluid. >512-346-3017 (FAX) >http://www.earthtech.org ***{Awhile back, while working with a cell that contained styrofoam, I noticed that steam penetrated into the styrofoam, and condensed there. In your case, that means the water level will fall, and, since that leaves more room for gas, that volume change should be calculated and added to the measured flow of gas out of the cell. Anyway, that's all the guesses that leap to my mind at the moment. Good luck! --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 12:01:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28659; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:56:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:56:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:55:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Bill B. versus Mitch J. Resent-Message-ID: <"ZK2kO1.0.d_6.llcFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{This response is being sent a second time because, once again :-(, you have your "reply-to" header set to your private e-mail address. --MJ}*** >I apologize for the long delay. I wrote a couple of long responses, but >gave up and decided to wait a bit because they contained too much >defensiveness. I need to at least *attempt* to sort out personal bias >from moderation issues. > >First off, Mitch, if you are talking about being "booted off", you must be >unfamiliar with my moderation behavior across history. I escalate control >as follows. When I see a problem, first I discuss the issue. Then I give >warnings. Then I ask that the thread be moved to vortexB. Then I stop >asking, and move the offender temporarily to vortexB. I listen to input >during this whole sequence, and sometimes alter my position. When I push >someone off vortex, sometimes the person in question vanishes. This is >because sometimes they leave in a huff. Sometimes they go off and start >their own list. Sometimes they resubscribe and lurk on Vortex-L. > >You are relatively safe in insulting me, if "safe" means your remaining on >the list. ***{When a person is merely returning fire, is that an insult? Or does the insult come only when pejoratives are first introduced into the discussion? The latter, in my opinion, is the more reasonable view. In that case, you need to remember that you suggested I was "closeminded," "intolerant," "biased," that I exhibited "pathological skepticism," that my beliefs are "unshakeable," that I exhibit generalized disrespect for people rather than merely returning fire when fired upon, and that my form of argument resembles Aztec human sacrifice rituals. Now, granted, I have encountered far worse, and thus I do not consider your comments to have been particularly insulting--not by generalized usenet standards, at any rate. However, my point is this: whatever label we put on those comments, *you fired the first shot, not me*. --MJ}*** I pay more attention to insults directed at others. And as far >as the present conversation, I am only at the discussions/warnings stage. >If you feel an implied threat of unsubscription based on your experiences >in other forums ***{As I said, I seldom post in moderated forums. (My guess is that, with the exception of vortex, you could count my posts to moderated groups on the fingers of one hand.) Thus my attitude toward the typical "moderator" is based upon my understanding of the way power, real or imagined, affects human behavior, and upon the abuse which I have observed power-mad "moderators" inflicting on others, rather than on the treatment that they have inflicted on me. --MJ}*** , then perhaps you are making assumptions which don't apply >to vortex-L. The "threat" at present is that I might move the >Mpemba-questioning thread off-list. > >I cannot answer a 40K message without making it an even larger response, >or without selectively ignoring large sections. I'll summarize and >respond in another message. > >PS, I know you love to debate. ***{Substantive discussion/debate/argument, a.k.a. *reasoned discourse*, is the essential instrument by which mankind hacks its way through the jungle of false claims, and reaches the truth. Without it, we are just another dysgenic species, one among the millions, headed down a dead-end pathway toward extinction. Why do I say that? Because all the ills of mankind arise as a result of people acting on beliefs that have not been subjected to the test of reasoned discourse. Every dictator who slaughters millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, and every garden variety criminal, whatever his name or doctrine, is driven by beliefs that he knows he could never defend in an open and substantive debate, and he feels seething hatred toward anyone who attempts to draw him into one. Such feelings, in fact, are the most fundamental manifestation of human evil. --MJ}*** This msg is FYI. If you argue with it, I >will read but not respond. Save it for later messages. > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "Here is an interesting fact: nationwide, the murder rate in precincts that voted for George Bush is 2.1 per 100,000, while the murder rate in precincts that voted for Al Gore is 13.2 per 100,000." --Neal Boortz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 12:53:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12760; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:45:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:45:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:51:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Michael Johnston cc: h2opower , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A little christmas present for everyone... In-Reply-To: <00b401c067f7$87bbf8c0$6178add1 mikejohnston> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iu5eL1.0.C73.sTdFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Michael, Do you really think water flling pumping water is a new source of Free energy? On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Michael Johnston wrote: > Hi All, > A friend sent me this link. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. > http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg > MJ > > > http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 13:38:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29671; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:34:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:34:34 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:33:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217084202.022d8780 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sSCng3.0.XF7.gBeFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:40 PM 12/18/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{A length of flexible tubing presumably connects the gas port on the >cell to the top of the glass tube. What is it made of? Does it balloon out >noticeably in response to back pressure? If so, then since that volume >increase will be occupied by gas that has emerged from the cell, it is part >of the total outflow. --MJ}*** The tube is Tygon R-3608 (i.e. vinyl). It is about 20 cm long, 5/32" OD and 3/32" ID. It is rated at 40 psi and I'm using it over the pressure range 0-.4 psi and there is no sign of bulging...especially not the steadily increasing bulging which would be required to alter my measurements. >***{This is akin to sparging steam into a barrel: water vapor in the gas >flow is going to condense and blend with the vater in the tube and the >container, thereby reducing the significance of the meniscus as an >indicator of the flow rate. Are you weighing the water in your jerry-built >flowmeter before and after you take measurements of flow rate? --MJ}*** I haven't weighed anything yet. I thought that vapor might be condensing into the water, too, until I saw that the measurements using Hg as a liquid produced the lowest apparent flow rates of all. >***{Mercury forms amalgams with various metals--e.g., the silver in your >fillings. Since hydrogen exhibits metal-like behavior, perhaps it is >readily absorbed into mercury. If the hydrogen is flowing into the mercury, >then the gas flow rate could be much greater than the meniscus drop would >seem to indicate. (Just a thought. :-) --MJ}*** Well, that's a thought I have not had yet...thanks! I'll look into it. >***{Awhile back, while working with a cell that contained styrofoam, I >noticed that steam penetrated into the styrofoam, and condensed there. In >your case, that means the water level will fall, and, since that leaves >more room for gas, that volume change should be calculated and added to the >measured flow of gas out of the cell. That's a good point, too. I worry about the Styrofoam but take solace in the fact that the experiment lasts for hundreds of hours so, hopefully, the Styrofoam will reach an equilibrium water content and stop affecting things... I'll be posting some even more impossible results soon...like tomorrow. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 14:48:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15799; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:32:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:32:22 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A-B communication device Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:31:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001216044700.7126.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001216093442.0274d5b0@earthtech.org> <3.0.6.32.20001218190423.00b6fa90@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001218190423.00b6fa90 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA15768 Resent-Message-ID: <"1a7ay1.0.is3.r1fFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to John Winterflood's message of Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:04:23 +0800: [snip] >>This is just a guess but maybe we also need to include the Lorentz gauge >>condition: >> >> DEL.A = (1/c^2) phi/@t > >Choosing the Lorentz gauge allows the equations for A and phi to be >written as two separated wave equations which without sources become >(see Feynman Vol 2, page 18-11) :- > > (DEL)^2 A = 1/c^2 d^2/dt^2 (A) (from 18.24) > > (DEL)^2 phi = 1/c^2 d^2/dt^2 (phi) (from 18.25) > >It seems to me that conventional E-M waves are fully defined by the >first equation, and that the A-phi waves are defined by the second >(together with the Lorentz gauge equation). > >This indicates that the velocity of propagation of A-phi waves is >expected to be "c" just as it is for conventional E-M waves. Isn't this a direct consequence of choosing the Lorentz gauge? IOW if you choose something else, you get a different velocity? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 14:53:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17794; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:39:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:39:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3a3496ee.1083702923 mail.midiowa.net> References: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:36:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Why Ebola Doesn't Compute Resent-Message-ID: <"mRDbV3.0.yL4.I8fFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitchell, ***{Greetings. Sorry for the delayed response. I simply don't have enough time to keep up with my e-mail right now. --MJ}*** > >On Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:02:22 -0600, Mitchell Jones >wrote: > >>In an earlier thread, I attempted to clarify why I found it difficult to >>accept the conventional interpretation of Ebola and similar diseases, and >>wound up being accused of the multiple redefinition of terms by a proponent >>of the conventional interpretation. Well, I have reflected on the subject a >>bit more, and have decided to make one last effort at conveying my point. > >>In my view, that doesn't compute. Ebola is a highly contagious disease > >That's assumption number 1. ***{Not an assumption. See http://chrisu.virtualave.net/ebola/infect.htm for one statement to that effect out of many. --MJ}*** > >>with a mortality rate which varies between 50 and 90 percent, > >Assumption 2. ***{Again, that's not an assumption. It is a conservative statement, based on what I have read. Most statements give higher numbers, in fact. See http://users.supernet.com/scsmith/ebola/, for example. (They give the mortality rate at 70-90%.) --MJ}*** > >>and in a >>significant proportion of sufferers, the symptoms are spectacular: the >>afflicted person bleeds from every bodily orifice, and then dies. > >Assumption 3. ("significant portion" being undefined) ***{Significant vis-a-vis the issue--which means: sufficiently common so that any outbreak would quickly attract notice and make its way into the medical literature. The point in dispute, remember, is whether it is plausible that this virus may have been lurking in an unknown animal host somewhere in Africa, and have somehow managed to escape the notice of Western medicine until the last 25 years. In my view, that is not likely, due to the spectacular symptoms that frequently accompany the disease, its extremely contagious nature, its high mortality rate, and, importantly, its propensity to sweep through hospitals, wiping out not merely patients but medical personnel. This is a disease that is hard to not notice, to put it mildly. (Believe me: doctors are going to take note of a disease that wipes their colleagues out. :-) Thus I have strong doubts that has been lurking unseen for eons, as is claimed by proponents of the conventional theory. --MJ}*** > >>When >>someone contacts the "unknown host species," somewhere out in the jungle, > >Assumption 4. ***{That's not my assumption: its an assumption of the theory I'm disputing (and which you are defending). --MJ}*** > >>the disease incubates for a couple of weeks, >>giving him plenty of time to >>interact with other human beings and spread the virus. > >Assumption 5. ***{Close enough. The disease incubates for from 2 to 21 days, according to the CDC, so the mean incubation period is 11 days. --MJ}*** > >>And during the >>period of overt illness, his body is literally covered with the virus >>particles: they ooze from every sweat gland and bleeding lesion on his >>body. > >Assumption 6. > >>Result: an epidemic in which the disease wipes out all or most of the >>man's family, then all or most of his village, etc. > >Umm, conclusion? > >First of all, which village or family has almost been wiped out by >Ebola? If the assumptions, above, are correct, then we should be >hearing reports of villages and/or families being wiped out. ***{The very first outbreak of the disease (in 1976) was in the small village of Yambuku, Zaire, which had a population of roughly 400, of which 318 came down with Ebola, and 280 died. I can't find the original article I read about this outbreak, but you can find lots of references to it. Search on the keywords "Ebola" and "Yambuku." You will get lots of hits. (Here is one: http://www.thaimed.com/library/66020.htm.) --MJ}*** > >So far, there are none of which I'm aware. > >Here are the current reports: > >"The disease has killed 156 people, including 14 health workers, in >Uganda since September. " > >"To date, the Ebola outbreak has been confined to Gulu town, 360 >kilometers north of Kampala, Masindi town 300 kilometers northwest of >Kampala, and Mbarara town, 280 kilometers southwest of Kampala. " > >"KAMPALA, Uganda (UPI) - Three people suffering from Ebola-like >symptoms have been found in Uganda's second-largest town for the first >time, raising new fears Friday that the deadly disease is spreading." > >So, there are 156 people who are dead out of a population of many >million in 3 months. Uganda is a reasonably sized country -- but it's >not as big as Texas. There's plenty of possible contact between >people who have contracted Ebola. So where is the epidemic? ***{The population of the Earth is about 6 billion, so why not say: "There are 156 people who are dead out of a population of 6 billion in 3 months. So where's the epidemic?" :-) The answer, of course, is that the epidemic, as is usual now that the entire world has become energized about this disease, has triggered a massive influx of foreign medical personnel and equipment, and a total lockdown and quarantine of everybody who has showed the slightest symptoms or had contact with anyone who did. Result: it is extremely difficult for the disease to make progress, and it will remain so until it breaks out of Africa and spreads to enough locations so that this type of massive medical response will no longer be practical. When that occurs, medical resources will quickly be overwhelmed, and we will face a worldwide pandemic. Bottom line: you cannot reasonably extrapolate from the difficulty that the disease is presently having in making headway, to the conclusion that it does not pose a threat to mankind. Quite the contrary: the massive medical response to every emergence of this disease is evidence that those who have studied it consider it to be an enormous threat. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >One or more of the assumptions, above, have to be incorrect. Perhaps >the media is overblowing the problem a bit? The external signs of >Ebola (and other hemorrhagic diseases) are extremely frightening, and >it's easy for a writer to emphasize the outward characteristics of the >disease. ***{From what I have read, I would think the media are underreporting the disease. They appear to be far more interested in dimpled chads and voter fraud, and in whether Tweedle Dum or Tweedle Dee sits in the White House, than they are in the survival of mankind. --MJ}*** > >Perhaps it isn't as contagious as has been described in the media. If >it were, there should be many thousands of people with Ebola since >September (incubation 10-20 days) and thousands of deaths (assumption >2, 50% to 90% mortality rate). But there aren't. Is it possible that >assumption 1 and/or assumption 2 are incorrect? ***{I think you are ignoring the massive medical response, as noted above. --MJ}*** > >Maybe assumption 3 is incorrect. Is it possible that the disease is >highly contagious, and the incubation is a week or two, but a >significant portion of people who contract the disease have no outward >symptoms -- and their body fights off the disease? ***{Not based on the numbers. Most sites give the mortality rate at between 70 and 90 percent. By the way, another bizarre aspect of this disease: there have been several epidemics among monkeys being transhipped to zoos, with the monkeys being virtually wiped out. This, again, is something that would have been noticed long ago, if it had been happening long ago. But, obviously, it hasn't. Why not? Perhaps because this virus rode in on a comet about 25 years ago. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Could Ebola cause infected people to not feel like moving around much, >so assumption 5 may not hold? ***{Check out the link that I gave you, above, which gives the incubation period--the period before the patient shows symptoms--of 2 to 21 days. Note: before a patient shows symptoms, he feels fine, by definition. (Feeling too lousy to move is clearly a symptom. :-) --MJ}*** > > ******************************** > >Hemorrhagic diseases are horrible to see, and very scary because we >don't have vaccines to stop most of them. The media has jumped on >them because they are very easy to describe. > >BUT, they are nowhere close to being as contagious as many other >diseases (the common cold, for example -- or measles, mumps, chicken >pox, etc.). It's also very possible that native populations have a >genetic immunity to being severely affected by the hemorrhagic >diseases ***{I repeat: the mortality rate for Ebola is 70-90%. That means pre-existing levels of immunity in the population are essentially zilch. --MJ}*** , just as African populations have a genetic immunity to >malaria. > >>The implication: this is not a disease that is capable of passing >>unnoticed. Since people have been living in Africa for millions of years, >>and since Western medicine has had a presence in Africa for about 200 >>years, any Ebola outbreak in Africa in the last 200 years could not have >>gone unnoticed. > >This would be true, if the above assumptions were correct. ***{Which, as noted, they are. --MJ}*** > >>Is it plausible that there is some host species in darkest Africa that has >>harbored this virus for 200 years without transmitting it to a European >>visitor? Yes. Is it plausible that there is a host species in darkest >>Africa that has harbored it for 200 years without transmitting it to one of >>the natives? I think not, though I would hesitate to say it is utterly >>impossible. Perhaps the probability of such non-transmission might be as >>high as 1 in 100, and so the conventional theory would seem, at first >>glance, to be possible though rather unlikely. >> >>However, when we consider other highly contagious hemorrhagic fevers with >>high mortality rates--e.g., Argentinian hemorrhagic fever, Bolivian >>hemorrhagic fever, Venezuelan hemorrhagic fever, etc.--that likewise could >>not have gone unnoticed and which are also supposed to be explained by the >>conventional theory, I find the math to be unbelievable. If the average >>probability of non-transmission to humans of these various diseases, prior >>to 1950 say, is .01, then the probability that *none* of them would have >>been transmitted to humans, and, thus, noticed by Western medicine, becomes >>(.01)^4 = 10^-8 for the four examples listed, taken together. > >I would agree with you that these would be new, and not just newly >discovered, diseases IF they were even as contagious as, say >syphillus. But they aren't. ***{You need to stop guessing and actually read some of the references I have been giving you. If you screw someone who has syphilis, the odds are you won't be infected, and if you are, you will probably remain asymptomatic for years. However, if you screw someone who has Ebola, there is roughly an 80% probability that you will be dead in 40 days. That is a gigantic difference. This is *not* a disease to be trifled with. --MJ}*** > >We don't know (or I haven't been able to find) any good sources that >put numbers to the degree of contagion for these diseases. ***{My recollection is that the village of Yambuku was essentially wiped out, though I haven't yet been able to revisit the URL where I read that. --MJ}*** Nor do we >know what percentage of people who have contracted the disease(s) show >overt symptoms -- or die. ***{Here is the URL of an excellent search engine: http://www.alltheweb.com. I suggest that you bookmark it, and then start plugging keywords such as "Ebola," "Yambuku," etc., into it, so you can learn more about this disease. --MJ}*** > >Until these numbers are available, it's extremely hard to answer the >question about whether or not these diseases have been around for >eons, or have recently evolved. ***{Like I say, I'm not totally convinced that the strongest arguments imply extraterrestrial origin, but the more I delve into the issue, the more plausible it seems. It is certainly a very interesting question, to put it mildly. --MJ}*** > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 14:59:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22696; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:50:20 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: HiFi replication: Run 1 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:52:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"RZ8TH.0.WY5.hIfFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. At the risk of stating the obvious, perhaps you should ask Mill's how he measured the product gasses. I kinda doubt the guy just assumed the output was 100% without some kind of test, even if it wasn't reported in the paper you mention. Seems like a BIG assumption which he would have checked at some point? Ya gotta imagine some recombination is going on from the small current densities involved. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 15:25:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02961; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:20:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:20:15 -0800 Message-ID: <004701c06949$816ce3a0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Cc: Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:23:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"fEMTa.0.6k.kkfFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps your flow rate appears different between Hg & water because the electrolysis gas has water vapor in it that is absorbed in the water flowmeter but not the mercury? Perhaps hydrino's are soluble in mercury 8^) BTW I've seen quite a few flowmeter articles at www.iop.org and have collected them, being interested in a pitot for my RC aircraft. Ultrasonics, and ions, bubbles, and an awfull lot on hot-wire anemometry, all kinds of ways to measure flow without messy fluids. The trick is (I'll SWAG - no experience here) using the right method for the medium, which sounds like wet hydrogent & oxygent. If there's no great rush you might even contract me to build you one. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 16:20:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22077; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:09:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:09:48 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Cc: "William Beaty" Subject: RE: Vortex needs resident skeptics? Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:12:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"my79s2.0.sO5.CTgFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'd be more comfortable with Mitchell if he did actually play the traditional role of the "token skeptic". What he actually does is quite different, as most long time vortex members recognize. Vortex needs skeptics, as well as promoters. I think the criteria for judging ought not to be position but rather the track record of the individuals ability to admit when they are wrong. Everyone is wrong sometimes. And we all should be here seeking the truth. So I would put the question to Mr. Jones directly, can you point to the archive to places where you concede you are wrong? Or do you feel every post you have made has been accurate and correct? Must I bring up those huge sentient cactus's on Mars to make a point here? If you think I'm being hypocritical, just look back over the past two weeks and you'll see me do just this. So I don't think I'm overreaching myself here. I find Mitchell's posts fun and occasionally thought provoking, but he's definitely not a skeptic. Rather he is simply oppositional. This is the basis of those long winded threads which manage to irritate so many ( fascist airplanes anyone? ) while enlightening so few. I've managed to avoid getting into one of these things with Mitch for a long time, and this is not an invitation to start. Please Mitch, instead of being right just try to listen to what your friends are telling you. K. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 5:35 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vortex needs resident skeptics? On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > Dear William, > While I totally agree with your approach, and appreciate your honest and clear > presentation, I would like add my two cents to a defense of Mitchael Jones, > not that he can't defend himself. Jones is playing the role of the site's > resident skeptic, an annoying but useful job. What do other subscribers think? Me, I strongly disagree that Vortex-L needs any resident skeptics. If Mitchell Jones regularly behaved as a "token skeptic", I'd have stronger objections. Colleagues with interest in physics anomalies are plenty skeptical enough to keep us honest, and if anyone wants to run their ideas by a "professional critic", a number of other lists and newsgroups are ready and waiting. We supply our own skepticism. It has been my experience that workers in one unorthodox field, while far more tolerant than the average researcher, are not at all accepting when it comes to results in other unorthodox fields. It's also been my experience that "Skeptics" are often driven by low motives such as desires to *appear* to be scientists when they are not, or desires to put a stop to threatening ideas, or by just plain Scientism. And as far as Vortex-L goes, one or two self-appointed nay-sayers can easily destroy the atmosphere required for speculative or creative "brainstorming" conversations. At the very least they could divert this group from what is supposed to be its central purpose: testing anomalies; attempts at experimental replications. I admit that sometimes the professed skeptics can be a valuable resource. Any anomalies which manage to pass muster on vortex-L can eventually be presented before other less forgiving arenas. But I suspect that there are enough critical minds on vortex-L that if an anomaly looks genuine to folks here, it probably can afford to skip over the people whose main profession is criticism of others' work, and go directly to peer review. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 17:51:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24402; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:46:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:46:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:46:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Vortex needs resident skeptics? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"3N98Q1.0.Bz5.FuhFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re Keith Nagel's response; Ok, I've stopped laughing long enough to type 'I agree'. Mebbe we could send our fascist airplanes out to bomb those giant cactus before they get out of control like some hellish prickly space-Kudzu on smart pills. They were obviously too much for the giant sandworms whose skeletons we now see in the ditches up there. We could be next! bg - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 18:07:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31097; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:04:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:04:47 -0800 Message-ID: <20001219020442.27597.qmail web4403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:04:42 -0800 (PST) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: Request for Info/Dielectric Constant & Longitudinal URL To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Z3XyK2.0.ob7._8iFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Michael T. Huffman" wrote: > Gnorts! > > A researcher studying A-grav on another list asked > if there was an online > reference giving a concise rundown on the dielectric > strengths of > materials, not just elements, but other materials as > well. I seem to > recall that Fred S. or Horace posted a link to a > reference a long time ago, > and I bookmarked it at the time, but lost about > 3,000 out of 4,000 > bookmarks in one disk mishap, so it is not readily > available to me. Most of the research I have done was also placed on the internet, but not on discs but in the form of a message board at inside the web. I know I had also bookmarked a dielectric constant there, but looking there was useless because inside the web seems to have deleted all the former pages past 3 months! The following was found in the escribe archives from a freenrg post from the past; I sure am glad that service works as advertised as inside the web's does not. They advertise a message life of 999 days, they should change that to 99! Naturally I have quit using their service as this is the second time this year records were deleted without my approval. I > still have it in my archives, but it would take > forever to find it. Does > anyone have that ref handy or perhaps another one? > > TIA > Knuke The Longitudinal Magnetic forces are involved when the cylindrical ring stacks are placed next to each other, the following URL from Tesla List contains relevant info; There is a very interesting paper at http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node1.html that talks about a longitudinal magnetic component of current proportional to I^2 Here is a URL for dielectric contants. I see that gasoline is listed at 2. http://www.asiinstr.com/dc1.html Sincerely HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 18:53:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15752; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:50:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:50:13 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Request for Info/Dielectric Constant & Longitudinal URL Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:49:37 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20001219020442.27597.qmail web4403.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20001219020442.27597.qmail web4403.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA15719 Resent-Message-ID: <"qsBAE3.0.yr3.bpiFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to harvey norris's message of Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:04:42 -0800 (PST): [snip] >There is a very interesting paper at >http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node1.html >that talks about a Is this URL correct, I can't find it (specifically the userid)? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 22:56:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27093; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:55:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:55:17 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:02:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Vortex needs resident skeptics? Resent-Message-ID: <"nwf72.0.Fd6.KPmFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 2:34 PM 12/18/0, William Beaty wrote: >On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> Dear William, >> While I totally agree with your approach, and appreciate your honest and >>clear >> presentation, I would like add my two cents to a defense of Mitchael Jones, >> not that he can't defend himself. Jones is playing the role of the site's >> resident skeptic, an annoying but useful job. > >What do other subscribers think? > >Me, I strongly disagree that Vortex-L needs any resident skeptics. If >Mitchell Jones regularly behaved as a "token skeptic", I'd have stronger >objections. Perhaps, for moderation purposes, the distinction between healthy and unhealthy skepticism should be made by an empahsis on the degree of COOPEATION between parties involved to achieve an end. Criticism in the form of bringing possibly unknown data or theory or even creative ideas to light, though having a negative bearing in context, can be very helpful. It is prototracted heated debate of issues that is anathema, especially when the goal of the debate is to achieve a "winner" as opposed to working cooperatively toward a mutual goal of discovering the truth about some scientific issue. The last person to spew his dogma of course does not win a debate, but that fact somehow gets lost in the heat of the moment. Most everyone loses when bandwidth is gobbled up by mere ego battles, and even more so when the topic is non-scientific. I consider myself to be in the free energy lunatic fringe, and my only regret is that I haven't had even more time and money to spend on what some consider this folly without any feasible financial gain. However, I confess to falling into the role of skeptic and debater all too easily. It takes a continual vigilance on my part to avoid crossing the thin transparent line between team mate and adversary, between contributor and detractor, and between open minded empiricist and dogma spewer. It is so easy to fail to fully comprehend the merits of differing and new points of view, because that is the sin of omission, not so easily checked by mere calculation or evaluation. We are all mostly blind to our own faults in this area I think, and I fall victim to my prejudices all to often. There is no easy method for a moderator I think, and the rare moderation imposed here has been very good in my opinion. Over moderation would kill the spontaneity, synchronicity, and synergism that occasionally develops, and that is worth a LOT of meaningless interim traffic in my opinion. If everyone agreed on everything there would be very little to discuss, and it is also true that pairing up polyanna creative types with down to earth analytical types makes for a productive idea creating environment. Perhaps a note in the rules about emphasising cooperative constructive imformation exchange and discouraging debate for debate's sake would be useful. Vortex should not be a debating forum, but rather a forum for serious COOPERATIVE scientific discussion of anomalous experiments, even old "anomalous" results and corresponding theories now considered "wrong" or "understood." Perhaps stating a cooperation oriented GOAL for the forum would be another approach. The goal might be something like "fostering radical technology development through dissemination of experiment results relating to possible anomalies and the cooperative discussion and public idea exchange relating to such results, or to related anticipated experiments." Another useful criterion that might be employed to distinguish between useful and pathological skepticism might be the degree to which it is REPEATED. If a negative position is repeated numerous times without new data or content then that is clearly useless negativisim and a waste of time, bandwidth, and destructive to a creative environment. In my opinion, the goals of the forum are not fostered by tolerating a LONG TERM SELLING JOB on a negative skeptical view, or maybe any specific view for that matter. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 23:09:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31381; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:08:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:08:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:08:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex Subject: RE: Vortex needs resident skeptics? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Mjki91.0.6g7.cbmFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: billb wrote: > What do other subscribers think? > > Me, I strongly disagree that Vortex-L needs any resident skeptics. If > Mitchell Jones regularly behaved as a "token skeptic", I'd have stronger > objections. Hey! I didn't intend this thread to become a Mitch-bashing fest. This is about something Mitch brought up. Both Ed Storms and Mitch Jones mentioned that it would be good to have some skeptics here. It's a valid point. But Vortex-L has always been a tilted playing field where any "skeptics" are tolerated only, and certainly not welcomed. I thought that I'd check out the subscribers' current opinions about this. As there's a variety of "believers", I am sure there are several different kinds of "skeptics." Putting everything under one label makes for disagreements. First there's this sort: 'Believers:' those who, in order to avoid rejecting any important truths, tolerate the accidental acceptance of falsehoods. 'Skeptics:' those who, in order to avoid accepting any destructive falsehoods, tolerate the accidental rejection of truths. Also there are those scientists whose jobs are threatened by change or new ideas. They fight to defend something important to them. Then there are the toxic "self-elected defenders of orthodoxy." I think these usually aren't scientists. They pretend to be protecting the ignorant. In reality they have personal problems. They promote intolerance and are motivated by a need to feel superior, and they search for "inferior" victims as targets of their hatred. They're closer to being "science bigots" than to anyone who could be called a "skeptic." Years ago I put together a page about "Pathological Skepticism" at: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/pathsk2.txt Which kind of "skeptic" does this describe? There's Marcello Truzzi, who differentiates between "Pseudoskeptics" and "Zetectics." The former say "you're wrong," while the latter say "you haven't convinced us." The difference? The Pseudoskeptics are dishonest, and they pretend that their positions need no supporting evidence. (Like if Randi wants to state that Uri Geller is a hoaxer, Randi had better produce a videotape of Geller in the act of cheating, otherwise Randi is get away with presenting unsupported opinions as facts, and has become a Pseudoskeptic.) So I still think there's a good reason to have a forum with a built-in bias against all of the above stuff. Those who want to find new truths and are tolerant of falsehoods need a place to congregate. Vortex-L acts as a counterpart to the skeptics list, or to CSICOP. Ah, here's one which WOULD be useful on Vortex: the Skilled Critic. Imagine a venerable scientist who's been fooled many times before, and has lots of personal experience in flushing out both artifacts and any errors in judgement or reasoning. Rather than attacking others' work, this person would be SELF-CRITICAL, and could instruct others in developing this skill. I don't even know if I'd call this person a skeptic. "Thoughtful and experienced scientist" is a sufficient label. Speaking of CSICOP, that organization is a "club for like minds" and a pressure group, and the Skeptical Inquirer refuses to publish the opposing viewpoints or even any responses from the people being criticized. Exclusive clubs are an ancient tradition, and they can get things done which are beyond individual capabilities. If any CSICOP-supporters object to similar skeptic-excluding behavior on the part of the "believers," they are just being hypocrites. On the other hand, CSICOP presents somewhat of a bad example: it's a lesson in how NOT to behave. :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 18 23:19:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA02142; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:19:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:19:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:19:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: follow up, Barker patent query (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C06942.301DEF00" Content-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"t2ACt.0.OX.nlmFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C06942.301DEF00 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: See below. If anyone has messed with the Barker experiment, please send it to Dent's addr, since he is not subscribed to this list. Test of Barker patent http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/barker.txt ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:30:56 -0800 From: Orris Dent To: billb eskimo.com Cc: odent predict-dli.com Subject: follow up, Barker patent query Hello, Bill - This is a follow up to a request last week for any and all hard information on people/results who have tried the Barker radioactivity-modulation process listed in patents 4,961,880, and 5,076,971. You put out a message about this process back in 1996, I think. Any pointers? Regards, Orris Dent ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C06942.301DEF00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 01:25:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA09404; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:22:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:22:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20001219092250.20722.qmail web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:22:50 -0800 (PST) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: Request for Info/Dielectric Constant & Longitudinal URL To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"j1M6S3.0.sI2.iZoFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to harvey norris's message of Mon, 18 Dec > 2000 18:04:42 -0800 > (PST): > [snip] > >There is a very interesting paper at > >http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node1.html > >that talks about a > > Is this URL correct, I can't find it (specifically > the userid)? > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Yes I checked that one before posting,it works for me. Try http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/Slutdok.html Longitudinal electrodynamic forces - and their possible technological applications Master of Science Thesis by Lars Johansson, ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 05:59:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04041; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:58:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:58:46 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:57:28 -0600 To: , From: Scott Little Subject: RE: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"8DOsC2.0.3_.McsFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:52 PM 12/18/00 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote: >At the risk of stating the obvious, perhaps you >should ask Mill's how he measured the product gasses. >I kinda doubt the guy just assumed the output was >100% without some kind of test, even if it wasn't >reported in the paper you mention. Here's the description in the Sept 1996 edition (p. 474) "The faradaic efficiency of gas production by the working potassium cells was studied. Comparing this result with the sodium systems allows the accuracy of the analysis to be seen. A closed cell was fashioned from a 150 ml round bottom flask, 2 cm x 2 cm prolate spheroid stir bar, a glass "Y" adapter, glass tubing bent into the shape of one cycle of a square wave, a 150 ml beaker and a 0.01 ml graduated buret. The cell was set up to mimic as closely as possible the calorimetry tests. A constant current (+/- 0.01%) supply was used to supply the power for the electrolysis. Current measurement was done with a Heathly multimeter (+/- 0.1%) Gas was collected and measured in the buret. Several experiments were run to ensure the cell was sealed tightly." This mostly makes sense to me. Take a look at the 2nd photo on this page: http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run5.html and you will see the gas flow apparatus that I've used in the past for more vigorous experiments. The "square-wave" glass tube conveys the gas over the rim of the beaker and down under the surface of the water so the gas can bubble up into the collection vessel. In my case, the collection vessel is an inverted 10 ml graduated cylinder that I would fill completely with water before starting. As the gas bubbled up into it, the water was displaced and the gas volume could be read directly via the meniscus. However, Mills uses a 0.01 ml burette!!!??? Surely that size is a misprint. I've never heard of a burette that size. Then there's the practical difficulty that, at the flow rates of interest in this experiment, such a volume would fill completely in less than 1 second. He's probably using a 10 ml burette, inverted like my graduated cylinder. Anyway, I started out to use one of these devices for my Mills replication but then I found that it took ~20 seconds for the gas to advance just 1 cm along the glass tubing so I eliminated the collection vessel and am just using a length of tubing with a scale positioned alongside it. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 06:02:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04740; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:02:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219075736.0384cec0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:00:50 -0600 To: "Scott Stephens" , From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 In-Reply-To: <004701c06949$816ce3a0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZFI2L3.0.v91.afsFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:23 PM 12/18/00 -0600, Scott Stephens wrote: >Perhaps your flow rate appears different between Hg & water because the >electrolysis gas has water vapor in it that is absorbed in the water >flowmeter but not the mercury? Perhaps hydrino's are soluble in mercury 8^) Since I get a much lower apparent flow rate with the Hg, it would have to be the latter reason. >BTW I've seen quite a few flowmeter articles at www.iop.org and have >collected them, being interested in a pitot for my RC aircraft. Ultrasonics, >and ions, bubbles, and an awfull lot on hot-wire anemometry, all kinds of >ways to measure flow without messy fluids. The trick is (I'll SWAG - no >experience here) using the right method for the medium, which sounds like >wet hydrogent & oxygent. If there's no great rush you might even contract me >to build you one. I'd be surprised if any of those "instrumented" methods could handle this low rate. It's less than 0.01 ml/sec...i.e. less than 1 cubic foot per month. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 08:11:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28329; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:07:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:07:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:07:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P5rvc2.0.Ww6.nUuFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I want to suggest you use the method I use which measures the weight of oil (or water) that is released from a reservoir on to a balance. This method allows a computer to take and store the data over a long time. This method not only permits greater accuracy, but trends in time are much more easily seen. You might even get home once in awhile, with the computer doing all the work. Ed Scott Little wrote: > At 05:52 PM 12/18/00 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote: > > >At the risk of stating the obvious, perhaps you > >should ask Mill's how he measured the product gasses. > >I kinda doubt the guy just assumed the output was > >100% without some kind of test, even if it wasn't > >reported in the paper you mention. > > Here's the description in the Sept 1996 edition (p. 474) > > "The faradaic efficiency of gas production by the working potassium cells > was studied. Comparing this result with the sodium systems allows the > accuracy of the analysis to be seen. A closed cell was fashioned from a > 150 ml round bottom flask, 2 cm x 2 cm prolate spheroid stir bar, a glass > "Y" adapter, glass tubing bent into the shape of one cycle of a square > wave, a 150 ml beaker and a 0.01 ml graduated buret. The cell was set up > to mimic as closely as possible the calorimetry tests. A constant current > (+/- 0.01%) supply was used to supply the power for the > electrolysis. Current measurement was done with a Heathly multimeter (+/- > 0.1%) Gas was collected and measured in the buret. Several experiments > were run to ensure the cell was sealed tightly." > > This mostly makes sense to me. Take a look at the 2nd photo on this page: > > http://www.earthtech.org/Inc-W/2ndtry/run5.html > > and you will see the gas flow apparatus that I've used in the past for more > vigorous experiments. The "square-wave" glass tube conveys the gas over > the rim of the beaker and down under the surface of the water so the gas > can bubble up into the collection vessel. In my case, the collection > vessel is an inverted 10 ml graduated cylinder that I would fill completely > with water before starting. As the gas bubbled up into it, the water was > displaced and the gas volume could be read directly via the meniscus. > > However, Mills uses a 0.01 ml burette!!!??? Surely that size is a > misprint. I've never heard of a burette that size. Then there's the > practical difficulty that, at the flow rates of interest in this > experiment, such a volume would fill completely in less than 1 > second. He's probably using a 10 ml burette, inverted like my graduated > cylinder. > > Anyway, I started out to use one of these devices for my Mills replication > but then I found that it took ~20 seconds for the gas to advance just 1 cm > along the glass tubing so I eliminated the collection vessel and am just > using a length of tubing with a scale positioned alongside it. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:43:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08714; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:59 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:46:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"MIhLL.0.y72.IbxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The underwater spark phenomenon (USP) and other similar electrochemical reactions which have been and are under investigation on vortex and elsewhere represent a new medium or tool with which to explore for a new source of energy, i.e. an "over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device. The USP device does share or can be designed to share within it many characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou phenomena. It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design flexibility. The question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a robust ou solution will be found by investigating USP, or any other regimes? I say the answer is clearly yes. Aside from all the relatively small heat results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson, Piantelli, Griggs, Case, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the natural phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out foremost in my mind as justification for that position. There is police and other witness testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence. If the SHC phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment, heat generation phenomenon driving it. I think nature showed the way to the Wright Brothers. The evidence, and the clues for design, were right in front of their faces, in the form of birds. SHC is not such abundant evidence, but if it ever happened even only once, it is chock full of clues. Granted, the odds of replicating the unknown conditions appears dismayingly small. However, if SHC exists, then it is probably not the most robust form of the power generation either. Nature put together, at random, a nuclear reactor in France long before humans had a clue as to what an atom was. Based on SHC frequency, the solution space may be larger that it appears. The main objective presently need merely be to find a readily reproduced ou behavior in any provable amount. It seems to me self evident that there is reasonable hope for that, if SHC exists. Some have suggested that SHC is due to wicking. The fat of the body burns like a candle, wicked by clothing or carpet, etc. If wicking is a valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. Here is an experiment protocol: 1. Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet 2. Wrap ham with piece of cloth, e.g. an old shirt 3. Insert birthday cake candle in side of ham through hole in cloth 4. Place all in location safe for fire and smoke, but not in wind 5. Light candle The carpet is overkill, because SHC has been observed in a bathroom environment (it burned a hole through a linoleum floor) and deep under skin where no wick was present. However, this approach seems to give SHC (now spontaneous HAM combustion) the best chance. If the result is not that bone is reduced to a powder or not that a sweet burning sugar smell results, then the results are negative. Combusting a human body into white ash, including the bones, with only the body as fuel, and in the presence of 60 percent water, involves a source of heat outside the scope of present knowledge. Let's assume for the moment that some SHC reports are genuine, and see what can be determined from that assumption. The ou methods of P&F, etc., will be foremost in our minds while pursuingfree energy, so we need not have much concern about adapting those approaches. Further, through the normal course of events, nature herself will reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel. Considering SHC is to venture beyond these more obvious approaches to experimental program design, and to venture into a more grey realm less likely to be reached without straying off the beaten path. Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian search of USP? In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together as many elements as possible into a single test. This strategy has been employed to some extent in aids testing, for example. If you mix the blood for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies, all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests. However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made, and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc. The least expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate. Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit. It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or suppressed. Unfortunate also is the fact we do not know what elements are incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a SHC type reaction. However, we do know that the elements and concentrations in the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special circumstances where it actually happened. We also know it is possible for clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated. Based on some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is intiated by focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration. So, light may possibly be a trigger. Minimum element concentrations may be an ignition factor. More importantly, we know that at least at some edge of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims. The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N. The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and, in order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S, and Se. The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims' extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some respect to a critical mass. When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically speaking, the reaction suddenly stops. One hypothesis that roughly fits this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion. If some cosmic event should cause an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of muons. Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the reaction. However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation, if only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode. It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevent to the USP environments. We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution. There must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event. One of the more interresting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet, for long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee. (I sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a bannanna with that shredded wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self-immolated.) Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat, coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then filter, or..., maybe not filter. It sure would be advantageous to have a chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes. One thing that bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously combusting cows! If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish, worms, etc.? Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue! One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction. If so, the only such marix readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton. Possibly dried bone, or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to incorporate in a USP test. It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain solid metal. We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being significant. Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate in their mouths, etc. So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is not necessary. If not solid metal, though, what? A capacitive electrode cell is an idea, but without internal metal, so then how and where to generate the sparks? One possibility is to employ a perforated barrier, so as to obtain a very high current density at the perforations, and thus to evolve steam arcs in the perforations. Also there is the question of whether metal might subdue a SHC type reaction. If not, then metal electrodes are fine. Perhaps some kind of an insulating membrane or very thin sheet of material between two solutions might be a good regime. One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or other radiation. Another possibility is direct induction. None of these seem like very likely initiators. Well, except maybe for people located near the end of a military runway... In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for sustaining the reaction in a water environment. This does not seem possible to me unless water itself is the fuel. A nuclear reaction like 1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this. Also, the reaction must produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction. Beyond that, the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang, which it is not. SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like buring sugar. That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd. The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5 s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04 percent natural abundance. Well, I have done a fair job here of providing evidence as to why SHC can not exist! However, there is significant evidence it does. If it does, it offers clues to reaching the goal of free eenrgy, and provides specific questions that need answers that can be determined experimentally. Whether SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for the idea mill. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:44:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08646; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:49 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:46:37 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Resent-Message-ID: <"DK8kw3.0._62.9bxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Fred, Glad to see you back and hope you fully recover. I am way behind on my reading, but intend to read your refs. on carpet etc. Thanks for posting that, as it is very relevant to my present house remodelling. At 5:44 AM 12/16/0, tp.sparber wrote: >Number crunching for the reactions: > >1, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* (or a Hydrino) > >2, H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + 8.34 Mev (1.33E-12 joule) > >Then for 40 grams of Ca++ (Calcium from Hydrogen and Potassium): > >6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 1.065 joules of heat given off for the production >of 40 grams of Calcium. Maybe I am missing something in your calculation, but it looks like you accidently dropped an exponent somewhere? The above should be 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 8.05E11 (J/g-mol), so 40 g of Ca being one g-mol, we have 3.22x10^13 J. > >So, since 40 kilos (88 pounds) of Hydrogen and Potassium would only produce >1,065 Joules of Spontaneous Human Combustion Heat while forming ~ 40 kilos >of Calcium to turn you into a Staligmite... :-) The 40 kilos would produce 3.22x10^16 J, or 3.22x10^10 MJ. That's a lot of MJ's, considering there are only two MJ's on the list presently. 8^) Unfortunately, I missed the post on Spontaneous Human Combustion Heat. It must be somewhere in the many messages I skipped. That is an interesting topic to me and I think the evidence for the existence of SHC is compelling. I think your LL hypothesis is an interesting explanation for SHC, as is the possibility of hydrino formation. I have just updated somewhat an old post on SHC I made here once some time ago, and will post it now separately, as I think SHC is well worth (at least an amateur's) pondering from time to time. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:46:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08583; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:38:45 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:36:46 -0600 To: hydrino eGroups.com From: Scott Little Subject: gasflow measurements Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"D6-KM.0.162.4bxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Folks, This gasflow measurement is really getting interesting. Take a look at the latest "impossible" results: http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow.html Please help me figure out what's going on! Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:47:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10697; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:45:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:45:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:53:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: HiFi replication: Run 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"LXFnZ2.0.3d2.MhxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mercury forms oxides, so may consume O2 in addition to the hypothesized consuming of H2 via hydride formation. Given the possibility of being chemically active with both H2 and O2, it is speculative, but not much so, that Hg can act as a recombination catalyst. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:54:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12870; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:50:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:50:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:56:27 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Russ Jones cc: jlnlabs egroups.com, Sweet-VTA@egroups.com, Vortex Subject: Quantum Fields LLC - Research and Development Simple question In-Reply-To: <000201c06940$84d13360$bcbb23a6 wcomnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wnpCd1.0.s83.FmxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, This is a good site to visit to see references on experiments describing Zero Point energy as realted to the Casimir Effect. Abbreviated CE. CE is an effect whereby two conductors are pushed together by the action of Electro Magnetic waves, abbreviated EM. To super simplify it you can say that if the two conductors are small flat plates and are sort of close to one another they can be pushed together by EM waves. The idea is that EM waves smaller than a certain size related to the physical size of the plates cannot "fit between" the conducting plates and all the of the EM waves that are Larger than this size tend to push the plates together. Q: Does this simple description work for everyone? On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Russ Jones wrote: > > To All, > > http://www.quantumfields.com/ > > I happened to notice Robert L. Forward is on one of the project teams. > > There is a quick bio on him here: > http://www.quantumfields.com/projects.htm#Dr. Robert L. > > Best Regards, > > Russell M. Jones, Lightwave Engineer > ACES Data Loading & User Support > MCI WorldCom - ISPELD > mailto:Russ.Jones wcom.com > Phone:972-656-5805 > VNET:757-5805 > Fax:972-656-1622 > Pager:800-PAGE-MCI Pin:1598044 > http://isperse.wcomnet.com/aces/ > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> > eLerts > It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! > http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/0/_/2785/_/977177942/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > > Messages archives at : > > http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe egroups.com > > JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 11:59:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15641; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:56:49 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:02:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Rick Monteverde cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Vortex needs resident skeptics? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XQdBP.0.Jq3.1sxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Q: What are you laughing at? I want to laugh with you, please! Please see note in text below, Opinion note: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Re Keith Nagel's response; > > Ok, I've stopped laughing long enough to type 'I agree'. > > Mebbe we could send our fascist airplanes out to bomb those giant > cactus before they get out of control like some hellish prickly > space-Kudzu on smart pills. Note Opinion: Woody Guthrie wrote, as sung by Bill Bragg "You Fascists Are Bound To Lose" in the song with the same title. They were obviously too much for the > giant sandworms whose skeletons we now see in the ditches up there. > We could be next! > > bg > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:10:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18793; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:05:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:05:49 -0800 Message-ID: <011001c069f8$2dc58860$9e2c7dc2 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: References: Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:13:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nJe7i2.0.Sb4.S-xFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - There was a program on tv about 1 year ago ( Poss. BBC ) which indeed showed an experiment which was a Full Pigs corpse and "Wicking" was stated as the cause. It looked very convincing but who knows?.Sorry I cannot remember the date -perhaps it also appeared on Nat. Geographic - it seems like their kind of thing ; Best wishes from Ireland ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner To: Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 7:46 PM Subject: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) > The underwater spark phenomenon (USP) and other similar electrochemical > reactions which have been and are under investigation on vortex and > elsewhere represent a new medium or tool with which to explore for a new > source of energy, i.e. an "over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device. The > USP device does share or can be designed to share within it many > characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou > phenomena. It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design > flexibility. > > The question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a robust ou > solution will be found by investigating USP, or any other regimes? I say > the answer is clearly yes. Aside from all the relatively small heat > results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson, Piantelli, Griggs, > Case, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the natural > phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out foremost in my > mind as justification for that position. There is police and other witness > testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living > victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence. If the SHC > phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable > probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment, > heat generation phenomenon driving it. > > I think nature showed the way to the Wright Brothers. The evidence, and > the clues for design, were right in front of their faces, in the form of > birds. SHC is not such abundant evidence, but if it ever happened even > only once, it is chock full of clues. Granted, the odds of replicating the > unknown conditions appears dismayingly small. However, if SHC exists, then > it is probably not the most robust form of the power generation either. > Nature put together, at random, a nuclear reactor in France long before > humans had a clue as to what an atom was. Based on SHC frequency, the > solution space may be larger that it appears. The main objective presently > need merely be to find a readily reproduced ou behavior in any provable > amount. It seems to me self evident that there is reasonable hope for > that, if SHC exists. > > Some have suggested that SHC is due to wicking. The fat of the body burns > like a candle, wicked by clothing or carpet, etc. If wicking is a valid > explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment should > produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. Here is an > experiment protocol: > > 1. Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet > 2. Wrap ham with piece of cloth, e.g. an old shirt > 3. Insert birthday cake candle in side of ham through hole in cloth > 4. Place all in location safe for fire and smoke, but not in wind > 5. Light candle > > The carpet is overkill, because SHC has been observed in a bathroom > environment (it burned a hole through a linoleum floor) and deep under skin > where no wick was present. However, this approach seems to give SHC (now > spontaneous HAM combustion) the best chance. > > If the result is not that bone is reduced to a powder or not that a sweet > burning sugar smell results, then the results are negative. > > Combusting a human body into white ash, including the bones, with only the > body as fuel, and in the presence of 60 percent water, involves a source of > heat outside the scope of present knowledge. Let's assume for the moment > that some SHC reports are genuine, and see what can be determined from that > assumption. The ou methods of P&F, etc., will be foremost in our minds > while pursuingfree energy, so we need not have much concern about adapting > those approaches. Further, through the normal course of events, nature > herself will reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel. > Considering SHC is to venture beyond these more obvious approaches to > experimental program design, and to venture into a more grey realm less > likely to be reached without straying off the beaten path. > > Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian > search of USP? In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together as > many elements as possible into a single test. This strategy has been > employed to some extent in aids testing, for example. If you mix the blood > for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies, > all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests. > However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made, > and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to > verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc. The least > expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate. > > Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a > combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit. > It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force > other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or > suppressed. Unfortunate also is the fact we do not know what elements are > incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a SHC > type reaction. However, we do know that the elements and concentrations in > the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special > circumstances where it actually happened. We also know it is possible for > clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC > reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated. Based on > some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is intiated by > focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration. > So, light may possibly be a trigger. Minimum element concentrations may be > an ignition factor. More importantly, we know that at least at some edge > of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in > natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in > those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the > reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the > lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims. > > The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N. > The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and, in > order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S, > and Se. > > The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims' > extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some > respect to a critical mass. When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically > speaking, the reaction suddenly stops. One hypothesis that roughly fits > this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion. If some cosmic event should cause > an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a > particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most > connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of > muons. Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the > reaction. However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation, if > only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode. > It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing > pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevent to the USP > environments. > > We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when > subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and > extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution. There > must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event. > > One of the more interresting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet, for > long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee. (I > sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a bannanna with that shredded > wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self-immolated.) > Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat, > coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then > filter, or..., maybe not filter. It sure would be advantageous to have a > chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes. One thing that > bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously > combusting cows! If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish, > worms, etc.? Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue! > > One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is > necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction. If so, the only such marix > readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton. Possibly dried bone, > or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to > incorporate in a USP test. > > It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain > solid metal. We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum > poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone > plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being > significant. Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate in > their mouths, etc. So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is > not necessary. If not solid metal, though, what? A capacitive electrode > cell is an idea, but without internal metal, so then how and where to > generate the sparks? One possibility is to employ a perforated barrier, so > as to obtain a very high current density at the perforations, and thus to > evolve steam arcs in the perforations. Also there is the question of > whether metal might subdue a SHC type reaction. If not, then metal > electrodes are fine. Perhaps some kind of an insulating membrane or very > thin sheet of material between two solutions might be a good regime. > > One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or other > radiation. Another possibility is direct induction. None of these seem > like very likely initiators. Well, except maybe for people located near > the end of a military runway... > > In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for > sustaining the reaction in a water environment. This does not seem > possible to me unless water itself is the fuel. A nuclear reaction like > 1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this. Also, the reaction must > produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction. Beyond that, > the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang, > which it is not. SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like > buring sugar. That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely > carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it > would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a > body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd. > > The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5 > s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be > clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04 > percent natural abundance. > > Well, I have done a fair job here of providing evidence as to why SHC can > not exist! However, there is significant evidence it does. If it does, it > offers clues to reaching the goal of free eenrgy, and provides specific > questions that need answers that can be determined experimentally. Whether > SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for the idea mill. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:13:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17910; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:02:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:02:55 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:08:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: harvey norris cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Request for Info/Dielectric Constant & Longitudinal URL In-Reply-To: <20001219020442.27597.qmail web4403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"axtuf3.0.mN4.kxxFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Harvey, The CRC Handbook of Chemical and Physical constants has a good list. AND: If there is any interest..... I am in the process of doing some materials' sciences engineering directed toward dielectric solids with varying K... dielectric constant .... The areas of work include but are not limited to: Fixed Dielectric Adjustable Dielectric Dielectric which can be changed by means of control of some type such as magnetic or electric or other means. On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, harvey norris wrote: > > --- "Michael T. Huffman" wrote: > > Gnorts! > > > > A researcher studying A-grav on another list asked > > if there was an online > > reference giving a concise rundown on the dielectric > > strengths of > > materials, not just elements, but other materials as > > well. I seem to > > recall that Fred S. or Horace posted a link to a > > reference a long time ago, > > and I bookmarked it at the time, but lost about > > 3,000 out of 4,000 > > bookmarks in one disk mishap, so it is not readily > > available to me. > Most of the research I have done was also placed on > the internet, but not on discs but in the form of a > message board at inside the web. I know I had also > bookmarked a dielectric constant there, but looking > there was useless because inside the web seems to have > deleted all the former pages past 3 months! The > following was found in the escribe archives from a > freenrg post from the past; I sure am glad that > service works as advertised as inside the web's does > not. They advertise a message life of 999 days, they > should change that to 99! Naturally I have quit using > their service as this is the second time this year > records were deleted without my approval. > > > I > > still have it in my archives, but it would take > > forever to find it. Does > > anyone have that ref handy or perhaps another one? > > > > TIA > > Knuke > > The Longitudinal Magnetic forces are involved when the > cylindrical ring > stacks are placed next to each other, the following > URL from Tesla List > contains relevant info; > > There is a very interesting paper at > http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node1.html > that talks about a > longitudinal magnetic component of current > proportional to I^2 > > > Here is a URL for dielectric contants. I see that > gasoline is listed at 2. > http://www.asiinstr.com/dc1.html > > Sincerely HDN > > > > ===== > Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 12:43:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26552; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:34:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001219151225.02e2bd50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:34:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"nR03y2.0.kU6.kPyFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >I think nature showed the way to the Wright Brothers. The evidence, and >the clues for design, were right in front of their faces, in the form of >birds. SHC is not such abundant evidence, but if it ever happened even >only once, it is chock full of clues. Unfortunately, SHC does not happen on demand. You can go outside and watch a bird anytime, but very few people have observed SHC. The ashes and other evidence left over from SHC may the old, contaminated, or even faked. I do not see how you can draw useful conclusions from it. it is rather like discussing the explosion of the palladium cube that Pons and Fleischmann reported. I believe them, but what can we do with the information? The Wright Brothers discounted the value of bird flight studies as research. Bird flight inspired them. Orville wrote, "our own growing belief that man might . . . learn to fly was based on the idea that while thousands of the most dissimilar body structures, such as insects, fish, reptiles, birds and mammals were flying every day at pleasure, it was reasonable to suppose that man might also fly." (Crouch, p. 161) Wilbur's observation of a bird pivoting and "turning itself into an animated windmill" inspired the invention of the flexible wing. He wrote, "here was a silent birth of all that underlies human flight." But when it came to practical research, they found birds to be a little use. They later commented that watching a bird was rather like watching a magician. Once you know the trick, you can see how the magician does it, but watching him isn't much help when you are still learning. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 13:34:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11593; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:27:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:27:57 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:35:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An couple EV challenges Resent-Message-ID: <"74-Jw3.0.0r2.SBzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This was a very interesting report. Thanks! I wish I had the time to follow up on this. It sounds like an ordinary automobile spark coil driven by transistors and signal generator might would work as a power supply for this. At 11:38 AM 12/9/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Here is an easy low power experiment to demonstrate, but again, I'm not sure >what the operative mechanism is. I am only assuming that EVs are produced >because of the unusual appearance of the discharge and the fact that it will >show a more pronounced negative resistance range than is expected for low >energy >plasmas. It is possible to get the fleeting OU reading during these excursions >even with a standard ohmic load - and that alone will give your quiet a thrill >even though it has not proven to be repeatable by me and could easily be >measurement error. With a load that is also another plasma tube of some kind >(fluorescent), these anomalies seem to be repeatable, but the challenge of ever >getting a good measurements under such circumstances is almost insurmountable >since the load will also have negative resistance characteristics. > >If you have the right equipment sitting around please try it. You need to >rig up >a regulated power supply that will deliver positive multi-kv spikes with very >fast rise time - and at a pulse rate that is matched precisely to the " ion >travel length" of the Hg ions in your tube - with only a few watts (1-5) of >total power. Since this ion wavelength (completely different from electron >wavelength) will depend upon the fill pressure of the tube, the frequency will >usually have to be discovered by trial and error - although Roth has developed >formula for figuring it out. Since the rise time is short in comparison to the >frequency, what you have in effect is pulse> relatively long delay > >pulse, etc. >so the the delay is perhaps 10x the pulse width and the frequency will be >in the >range of several khz if the bulb is a relatively high pressure one. You need a >robust Hg arc tube (rated 250 watts or so - cathode and anode appear similar >but anode is slightly rounded rather than spiked), a very large hv pulse cap to >float the tube cathode on, a precision low ohm resistor and some litz wire to >wrap around the bulb. The load will be placed between this wire and ground so >that the "real" cathode is the quartz bulb ( the reverse of what KS is doing) ! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 13:38:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11642; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:28:05 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:35:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Some Notes ... EV challenges Resent-Message-ID: <"KhAcT2.0.qr2.bBzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:38 PM 12/12/0, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo., > > Ken Shouders has done work using EVs to drill holes in dielectric >materiasl, ceramic plates. > In one type of this use of EVs, the clusters are generated and >caused to crash into the ceramic, thereby making the hile. nice neat >holes have been obtained in this manner. As mentioned in CHALLENGE 1: "Punching a path to the anode through a thin dielectric layer does not count!" There is no evidence that a leader did not work it's way through the thin dielectric layer. If the dielectric layer can be made very thick, and witness spots still appear on the surface, then that is possibly some evidence for EV's. The fact that this does not happen appears to be certain evidence that they donj't exist or that at least the generation mechanism is not understood. My experience is that when you increase the thickness of the dielectric layer sufficiently the large current pulse stops. >> Another point of discussion might be as to why a gaseous envoronment is >> required, especially the recommended noble gas environment, like xenon. If >> EV's are pure or nearly pure electron aggregates, as spelled out in the >> initial patents, etc., why is a gas necessary at all? If a nucleation >> theory is advanced, i.e. that EV's are formed by electron tunneling to a >> neutral noble atom, then it would seem that EV formation would work well at >> much lower pressures. > > > I am not sure at what pressures you are calling high and low, by >EVs can and do form at STP and down to 1/2 atm. > I can write Ken and ask him the range of pressures. Even if an EV nucleation theory is applied, the pressure need only be sufficient that one atom strike the cathode tip often enough to permit an EV to be emitted. This would be a nearly unmeasurably low vacuum. Without EV's, and in the presence of a perfect vacuum, the needle tip should hold its charge until an atom shows up to nucleate the discharge by providing a tunneling destination for the electrons. If no nucleation point is required, then the EV's should form easily in a pure vacuum - which is not the case as far as I know. It would be interesting to know if any recent work involves the creation of EV's in a high vacuum. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 13:51:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18339; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:44:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:44:16 -0800 Message-ID: <006a01c06a05$8f714600$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:49:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"uuniS3.0.TU4.mQzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, Is it possible that the methanol has such a high vapor pressure at room temperature that small temperature differences may cause it to evaporate at a high rate. I keep thinking of those bubbler glass toys that boil due to body heat when held. Perhaps diffusion pump oil might be a better plug to avoid potential problems. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 13:57:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20185; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:50:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:50:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:58:18 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"0rpX9.0.Fx4.cWzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:34 PM 12/19/0, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>I think nature showed the way to the Wright Brothers. The evidence, and >>the clues for design, were right in front of their faces, in the form of >>birds. SHC is not such abundant evidence, but if it ever happened even >>only once, it is chock full of clues. > >Unfortunately, SHC does not happen on demand. You can go outside and watch >a bird anytime, but very few people have observed SHC. The ashes and other >evidence left over from SHC may the old, contaminated, or even faked. I do >not see how you can draw useful conclusions from it. it is rather like >discussing the explosion of the palladium cube that Pons and Fleischmann >reported. I believe them, but what can we do with the information? We can use the evidence of PHYSICAL POSSIBILITY to provide motivation for further investigation and to discount pathological skepticism. There is more to the possibility of an untapped energy source than mere wishes. > >The Wright Brothers discounted the value of bird flight studies as >research. Bird flight inspired them. Orville wrote, "our own growing belief >that man might . . . learn to fly was based on the idea that while >thousands of the most dissimilar body structures, such as insects, fish, >reptiles, birds and mammals were flying every day at pleasure, it was >reasonable to suppose that man might also fly." (Crouch, p. 161) Thank you for proving my original premise. >Wilbur's >observation of a bird pivoting and "turning itself into an animated >windmill" inspired the invention of the flexible wing. He wrote, "here was >a silent birth of all that underlies human flight." But when it came to >practical research, they found birds to be a little use. They later >commented that watching a bird was rather like watching a magician. Once >you know the trick, you can see how the magician does it, but watching him >isn't much help when you are still learning. I think one critial part of the Wright Brother's invention was "wing twisting" in order to bank to turn. This was, if I remember what I read correctly, directly inspired by watching birds fly. Yes, they had a long journey to get to that problem, but I think watching birds led the way for them, provided the essential clues, and certainly indicated to them that their efforts to fly were not folly. They seem to have been very level headed people. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 13:57:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20230; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:50:34 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:58:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"wKOsZ1.0.0y4.gWzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 AM 12/19/0, Noel Whitney wrote: >Horace - There was a program on tv about 1 year ago ( Poss. BBC ) which >indeed showed an experiment which was a Full Pigs corpse and "Wicking" was >stated as the cause. It looked very convincing but who knows?.Sorry I cannot >remember the date -perhaps it also appeared on Nat. Geographic - it seems >like their kind of thing ; Interresting! Do you recall if the bones were reduced to powder? If not, the test was negative for SHC (Spontaneous Ham Combustion.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 14:00:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21559; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:55:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:55:05 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:54:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA21495 Resent-Message-ID: <"xms97.0.jG5.uazFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:36:46 -0600: >Folks, > >This gasflow measurement is really getting interesting. Take a look at the >latest "impossible" results: > >http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow.html > >Please help me figure out what's going on! [snip] Hi Scott, Is it possible that the rate of hydrogen absorption in the nickel is sensitively dependent upon pressure? I hesitate to suggest this, because it so unlikely, but in the interest of covering all the bases, does a kink develop in the hose where it connects to the top of the U tube, as the weight of the hose pulls it down? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 14:15:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25730; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:07:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:07:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.108.150 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:06:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Magnetic material from burnt wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"bPZvS.0.yH6.7mzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With the onset of colder weather it is now a good time to experiment with magnetic material from burnt wood. The procedure is as follows. Take out all the iron materials from your fireplace. Then vacuum up all the ash and go over the floor of the fireplace with a magnet and discard any magnetic materials picked up. So you are now starting with a clean fireplace. Next load in the wood and start up the fire. Let the fire burn up and continue to smoulder until it is out. Then go over the white ash with a magnet and save the magnetic material obtained. Repeat until you have enough material. The black charcoal ash doesn't have anything in it so ignore that. Only the white ash will yield any magnetic material. The magnetic material thus obtained is very strange. It is just as magnetic as iron filings but doesn't appear to be iron. If it was iron filings it would burn but it doesn't. It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is not magnetic so this stuff is something else. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 14:27:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28951; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:16:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:16:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3FF39D.C4595684 gte.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:48:46 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Beaty CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex needs resident skeptics? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XMUwj1.0.G47.xuzFw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Skepticism is the very essence of science, PROVIDED that it is scientific, i.e., it is expressed only after acquiring a technical knowledge of the issues, it is scientifically valid, and is constructive. Thus, I do favor, support and recommend strongly critical exami nations of new scientific horizons, but only if done in the professional way. The rest is just trash not deserving a glance. Best wishes for the holidays to all William F. Pound Institute for Basic Research William Beaty wrote: > On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Dear William, > > While I totally agree with your approach, and appreciate your honest and clear > > presentation, I would like add my two cents to a defense of Mitchael Jones, > > not that he can't defend himself. Jones is playing the role of the site's > > resident skeptic, an annoying but useful job. > > What do other subscribers think? > > Me, I strongly disagree that Vortex-L needs any resident skeptics. If > Mitchell Jones regularly behaved as a "token skeptic", I'd have stronger > objections. > > Colleagues with interest in physics anomalies are plenty skeptical enough > to keep us honest, and if anyone wants to run their ideas by a > "professional critic", a number of other lists and newsgroups are ready > and waiting. > > We supply our own skepticism. It has been my experience that workers in > one unorthodox field, while far more tolerant than the average researcher, > are not at all accepting when it comes to results in other unorthodox > fields. It's also been my experience that "Skeptics" are often driven by > low motives such as desires to *appear* to be scientists when they are > not, or desires to put a stop to threatening ideas, or by just plain > Scientism. And as far as Vortex-L goes, one or two self-appointed > nay-sayers can easily destroy the atmosphere required for speculative or > creative "brainstorming" conversations. At the very least they could > divert this group from what is supposed to be its central purpose: testing > anomalies; attempts at experimental replications. > > I admit that sometimes the professed skeptics can be a valuable resource. > Any anomalies which manage to pass muster on vortex-L can eventually be > presented before other less forgiving arenas. But I suspect that there > are enough critical minds on vortex-L that if an anomaly looks genuine to > folks here, it probably can afford to skip over the people whose main > profession is criticism of others' work, and go directly to peer review. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 14:48:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07483; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:42:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:42:07 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic material from burnt wood Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:41:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8tov3tgg2mlpmorb3t29ndf9ct00ecik9o 4ax.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA07449 Resent-Message-ID: <"7QqJ91.0.pq1.-G-Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Larry Wharton's message of Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:06:46 -0500: [snip] >it doesn't. It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would >have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I >put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at >all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is >not magnetic so this stuff is something else. [snip] Perhaps if you are both willing, you could send some to Scott for x-ray analysis? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 14:55:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10250; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:50:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:50:00 -0800 Message-ID: <008f01c06a16$0b4b8fa0$5c8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" Subject: Re: Solar Home Power Systems Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:47:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C069D2.F45A9680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"F22092.0._V2.NO-Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C069D2.F45A9680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These people are advertising systems to hook to the grid and sell power to the power companies. "at the same price you have to pay for your electricity". Heard this on a local FM radio station. http://www.directpower.com/whoweare.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C069D2.F45A9680 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Who We Are.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Who We Are.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.directpower.com/whoweare.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.directpower.com/whoweare.htm Modified=C0D09286156AC001E8 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C069D2.F45A9680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:11:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08852; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:00:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:00:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3FDAAC.C6102CDD ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:56 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic material from burnt wood References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q0mYn1.0.2A2.DY-Fw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I understand Fe3O8 is magnetic and is the oxide iron would form at high temperatures. This oxide is black colored rather than red and is stable in water. Maybe you should dissolve the material in acid and test for iron. Any inorganic chemistry text will show you the method. Ed Storms Larry Wharton wrote: > With the onset of colder weather it is now a good time to experiment > with magnetic material from burnt wood. The procedure is as follows. > Take out all the iron materials from your fireplace. Then vacuum up > all the ash and go over the floor of the fireplace with a magnet and > discard any magnetic materials picked up. So you are now starting > with a clean fireplace. Next load in the wood and start up the fire. > Let the fire burn up and continue to smoulder until it is out. Then > go over the white ash with a magnet and save the magnetic material > obtained. Repeat until you have enough material. The black charcoal > ash doesn't have anything in it so ignore that. Only the white ash > will yield any magnetic material. The magnetic material thus > obtained is very strange. It is just as magnetic as iron filings but > doesn't appear to be iron. If it was iron filings it would burn but > it doesn't. It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would > have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I > put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at > all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is > not magnetic so this stuff is something else. > > Lawrence E. Wharton > NASA/GSFC code 913 > Greenbelt MD 20771 > (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:11:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16541; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:05:43 -0800 Message-ID: <009901c06a18$3ca85cc0$5c8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" , References: Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:02:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bPQf.0.M24.6d-Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner To: Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Biological Transmutations Horace wrote: > Hello Fred, > > Glad to see you back and hope you fully recover. I am way behind on my > reading, but intend to read your refs. on carpet etc. Thanks for posting > that, as it is very relevant to my present house remodelling. Thanks, Horace. I moved into a South Facing room that is carpeted with the 35 year old 501 Nylon (Pre "Scotchgard" type treatment). About 200% improvement in two days. BTW according to their web site, 3M is taking their product off the market. I suppose it will take a while for recovery after 5 years of exposure, if ever. > > > At 5:44 AM 12/16/0, tp.sparber wrote: > >Number crunching for the reactions: > > > >1, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* (or a Hydrino) > > > >2, H* + K+ ---> Ca++ + LL- + 8.34 Mev (1.33E-12 joule) > > > >Then for 40 grams of Ca++ (Calcium from Hydrogen and Potassium): > > > >6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 1.065 joules of heat given off for the production > >of 40 grams of Calcium. Yes. I corrected that to 8.08E11 J/g-mol. Which means a chicken doing the transmutations should vaporize upon producing a few milligrams of transmutations. :-) > > > Maybe I am missing something in your calculation, but it looks like you > accidently dropped an exponent somewhere? The above should be > 6.02E23*1.33E-12 = 8.05E11 (J/g-mol), so 40 g of Ca being one g-mol, we > have 3.22x10^13 J. > > > > > > >So, since 40 kilos (88 pounds) of Hydrogen and Potassium would only produce > >1,065 Joules of Spontaneous Human Combustion Heat while forming ~ 40 kilos > >of Calcium to turn you into a Staligmite... :-) > > > The 40 kilos would produce 3.22x10^16 J, or 3.22x10^10 MJ. That's a lot of > MJ's, considering there are only two MJ's on the list presently. 8^) > > Unfortunately, I missed the post on Spontaneous Human Combustion Heat. It > must be somewhere in the many messages I skipped. That is an interesting > topic to me and I think the evidence for the existence of SHC is > compelling. Based on those figures, it sure is. > > I think your LL hypothesis is an interesting explanation for SHC, as is the > possibility of hydrino formation. I have just updated somewhat an old post > on SHC I made here once some time ago, and will post it now separately, as > I think SHC is well worth (at least an amateur's) pondering from time to > time. Good. Thanks, and have a nice holiday. If you find the time. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:16:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18002; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:11:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:11:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3FEB03.5A73BF40 groupz.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:10:59 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar Home Power Systems References: <008f01c06a16$0b4b8fa0$5c8f85ce fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yN5y22.0.CP4.4i-Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is relatively old technology...there are a number of people "off the grid"....for number of reasons....some of them sell power back to the power companies...however the capitol costs at this time.....(cost to buy equipment and install it) does not make it economically feasible ....(need less expensive solar panels or higher efficiency ones)......hope this helps....steve opelc Frederick Sparber wrote: > > These people are advertising systems to hook to the grid and > sell power to the power companies. "at the same price you have to pay for > your electricity". Heard this on a local FM radio station. > > http://www.directpower.com/whoweare.htm > > Regards, Frederick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: Who We Are.url > Who We Are.url Type: Internet Shortcut (application/x-unknown-content-type-InternetShortcut) > Encoding: 7bit From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:35:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25537; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Larry Wharton cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic material from burnt wood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JHaF52.0.oE6.8--Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It may be Iron Carbide-Iron solid solution. On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Larry Wharton wrote: > With the onset of colder weather it is now a good time to experiment > with magnetic material from burnt wood. The procedure is as follows. > Take out all the iron materials from your fireplace. Then vacuum up > all the ash and go over the floor of the fireplace with a magnet and > discard any magnetic materials picked up. So you are now starting > with a clean fireplace. Next load in the wood and start up the fire. > Let the fire burn up and continue to smoulder until it is out. Then > go over the white ash with a magnet and save the magnetic material > obtained. Repeat until you have enough material. The black charcoal > ash doesn't have anything in it so ignore that. Only the white ash > will yield any magnetic material. The magnetic material thus > obtained is very strange. It is just as magnetic as iron filings but > doesn't appear to be iron. If it was iron filings it would burn but > it doesn't. It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would > have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I > put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at > all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is > not magnetic so this stuff is something else. > > Lawrence E. Wharton > NASA/GSFC code 913 > Greenbelt MD 20771 > (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 15:59:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32398; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:37 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01c06a17$300ca120$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:55:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"C49S93.0.8w7.5J_Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe its some spooky chemical effect, like those soap-boat toys; little wooden boat shapes with a V notch in back in which soap is placed. The surface tension is reduced and they are propelled along. The liquid in the horizontal tube has momentum? But the +/- 15 degree incline would refute that. The air between the fluid piston and U tube acts like a spring, converting resistanceless displacement into force, like a capacitor. That's it, you've have an RC circuit. Doesn't matter which is first, the R or C. Perhaps my SWAG that cold fusion is lepton anihilation is true! Check the exhaust gas to see if it is electrostaticaly charged eoyj. Probably would be quite difficult to insulate the whole cell (in a styrofoam box, say) and battery power it, and see if it develops a charge as electrons are untwisted into photons and phonons. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: hydrino eGroups.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: gasflow measurements >Folks, > >This gasflow measurement is really getting interesting. Take a look at the >latest "impossible" results: > >http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow.html > >Please help me figure out what's going on! > >Thanks > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:20:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09251; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:15:16 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Magnetic material from burnt wood Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:17:52 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A3FDAAC.C6102CDD ix.netcom.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"3wnJQ2.0.MG2.Je_Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think Ed means Fe3O4, known commonly as magnetite. If you want to prepare a sample to compare, take a piece of iron and heat to red hot, then expose to live steam. The material will form as a black coating. Wood on the fire does tend to emit steam, and if it's resting on an iron grate... K. -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:02 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetic material from burnt wood I understand Fe3O8 is magnetic and is the oxide iron would form at high temperatures. This oxide is black colored rather than red and is stable in water. Maybe you should dissolve the material in acid and test for iron. Any inorganic chemistry text will show you the method. Ed Storms Larry Wharton wrote: > With the onset of colder weather it is now a good time to experiment > with magnetic material from burnt wood. The procedure is as follows. > Take out all the iron materials from your fireplace. Then vacuum up > all the ash and go over the floor of the fireplace with a magnet and > discard any magnetic materials picked up. So you are now starting > with a clean fireplace. Next load in the wood and start up the fire. > Let the fire burn up and continue to smoulder until it is out. Then > go over the white ash with a magnet and save the magnetic material > obtained. Repeat until you have enough material. The black charcoal > ash doesn't have anything in it so ignore that. Only the white ash > will yield any magnetic material. The magnetic material thus > obtained is very strange. It is just as magnetic as iron filings but > doesn't appear to be iron. If it was iron filings it would burn but > it doesn't. It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would > have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I > put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at > all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is > not magnetic so this stuff is something else. > > Lawrence E. Wharton > NASA/GSFC code 913 > Greenbelt MD 20771 > (301) 614-6121 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 16:49:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17979; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:39:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:39:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3FFEE9.EC8CDCB3 enter.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:35:53 -0500 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Request for Info/Dielectric Constant & Longitudinal URL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_yj_-3.0.hO4.w-_Fw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is very interesting! Please report everything you find. Manipulating the dielectric using an external field is a useful approach to performing GWC or Biefeld-Brown effect devices. Thanks. David Rosignoli John Schnurer wrote: > > AND: If there is any interest..... > > I am in the process of doing some materials' sciences engineering > directed toward dielectric solids with varying K... dielectric constant > .... > The areas of work include but are not limited to: > > Fixed Dielectric > Adjustable Dielectric > Dielectric which can be changed by means of control of some type > such as magnetic or electric or other means. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:22:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16226; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:19:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:19:05 -0800 Message-ID: <015d01c06a33$43350b40$5c8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Two of the "Freon" propellants in medical sprays Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:16:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C069F0.2CE2C320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"smvJ6.0.Rz3.PS1Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C069F0.2CE2C320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can't win when you getting medicated for a chlorofluorcarbon sensitivity. :-) http://www.medschool.com/futuretense_cs/MedSchool/datasets/patch_f/html/chapter/mono/hf041250.ht m ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C069F0.2CE2C320 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="hf041250.htm.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hf041250.htm.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.medschool.com/futuretense_cs/MedSchool/datasets/patc= h_f/html/chapter/mono/hf041250.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.medschool.com/futuretense_cs/MedSchool/datasets/patch_f/= html/chapter/mono/hf041250.htm Modified=3DA01C63B3326AC0012F ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C069F0.2CE2C320-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 18:26:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17156; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:22 -0800 Message-ID: <015e01c06a33$dbf644c0$5c8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: More "Freon" to Inhale Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:20:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C069F0.C1841420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tbyOj2.0.-B4.PW1Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C069F0.C1841420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Still can't win. http://www.skcgc.com/niosh/FILE0704.html ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C069F0.C1841420 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="NIOSH 1018 Air Sampling Information for 1,2-Dichlorotetrafluoroethane (Dichlorodifluoromethane).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="NIOSH 1018 Air Sampling Information for 1,2-Dichlorotetrafluoroethane (Dichlorodifluoromethane).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.skcgc.com/niosh/FILE0704.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.skcgc.com/niosh/FILE0704.html Modified=602715A4336AC0019E ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C069F0.C1841420-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:12:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31443; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:10:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:10:38 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:18:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Magnetic material from burnt wood Resent-Message-ID: <"j9O_a3.0.9h7.kC2Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:06 PM 12/19/0, Larry Wharton wrote: > It comes from the hottest part of the fire and would >have already burned it it was iron filings. Also it doesn't rust. I >put some of this stuff in water for months and it did not rust at >all. It came out just as magnetic and with no rust. Iron oxide is >not magnetic so this stuff is something else. By "magnetic" do you mean permeable? Have you tried to permanently magnetize the stuff? If you mean the substance is permeable, then it might be a silicon-iron compound. I see in the CRC Handbook that AISI M 15 silicon iron is annealed 4 hours at 802-1093 deg. centigrade - not too far from the conditions you mention. It may be useful to determine density. Also, it may be interesting to measure a B-H curve. It could be an alloy of Ni, Mo, Co, etc., but iron would seem to be the metal most likely to be in wood due to iron in the water where the tree grew. Could be cobalt, but that could not be expected to be in tree ash in such quantities. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 19:52:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08789; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:47:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:47:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:43:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: hostility, pseudoskepticism Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA08592 Resent-Message-ID: <"D8YlG.0.F92.8l2Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >> > Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add >> > up to Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is >> > something I try to take action against if I notice it appearing on >> > Vortex-L. >> >> ***{That sounds perfectly reasonable, but I don't think it is what you >> are doing in the present instance. > > >The issue of my motivations is a distraction, so please it aside >temporarily. Did you hear what I said? > > >> My view of the situation is that you have found it to be very difficult >> to make headway while arguing with me, and are treating that as a >> perceived affront to your supposed kingly status. > > >So you feel singled out for "moderation" because of our past debates. >That's certainly valid. I *AM* singling you out, but not for the >reprehensible motives that you attribute to me. (Iíll take up the issue >of my motives later.) > >I did find it difficult to make headway with you, so I was going to drop >Mpemba discussion as being a worthless uphill battle rather than a simple >discussion of science issues. But then I realized, hey, one of your >arguments, although acceptable in other arenas, violates both the rules >and the central purpose of this forum. > >I know my own motivations. You can insist that I'm lying to myself, but I >know that I'm not dishonestly twisting the rules to "get you." I'm doing >the same thing that I have been doing on vortex-L ever since I started it. >I'm keeping the group on track by using the actions of a single subscriber >to make a point. When I notice a good example of a 'violation', I bring >it to the attention of the group to remind everyone what we're here for. ***{If it were, in fact, a "good" example, then you should be able to defend your assessment, right? But, thus far, you have made no attempt to respond to my extensive criticisms of that assessment. Instead, you appear to be intent on ignoring those comments and plowing ahead anyway, behaving pretty much as if you are a perfect example of the "closemindedness," "arrogance," and "unshakeable belief" that you have wrongly attributed to me. --MJ}*** > >If I hadn't had my attention drawn by the debate, your 'violation' would >have slipped right by me like many others. I only bring up these issues >sporadically, so when it happens, it certainly appears that Iím >*selectively* punishing a particular individual. So be it. I donít care >what it looks like to others, because I know what it *IS*. ***{That sounds suspiciously like "arrogance," "closemindedness," and "unshakeable belief" to me. How do we identify such a mental state? Simple: the arrogant, closeminded person with the unshakeable beliefs *refuses to respond to reasoned criticism*. He is above all that. He *can't* be wrong, and he knows it, so there is no reason to bother. Instead, he lapses into silence when he encounters arguments that he cannot answer, and simply plows ahead. On the other hand, the *openminded* person, even when he knows his is right, will listen to criticism and respond. Result: he remains open to the corrective process that will steer him back toward the truth, even in the worst-case scenario where he has allowed himself to become certain of what, in fact, is a falsehood. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Your defense that "Bill and others do it too" is without merit because >it's still "against the law" here. ***{You are dropping the context. We were talking about the use of words such as "nonsense," "absurd," "bogus," etc., in discussions, and I didn't attempt to defend the use of such words by saying that you, and others, use them. I merely stated it as a fact: you, and virtually everyone else in this group, at one time or another, do in fact employ such terms. My point, which I stated explicitly, was that if you intended to boot people out of the group because they used such words, you would have to kick everyone out, including yourself. How, then, would I justify the use of such words? Simple: my position is that such words are not true pejoratives, because they are directed at ideas rather than people. However, they are admittedly very blunt and forceful in their impact, and should not be loosely tossed around. Instead, they need to be held in abeyance until the other party to the discussion, by his behavior, has rendered their use appropriate. How would he do that? Well, one way would be by tossing such terms around loosely himself, as Jed Rothwell has a long history of doing in discussions with me. Thus, when dealing with Rothwell, I consider myself perfectly justified in dropping such words into the conversation whenever I feel like it, because he has demonstrated by a lengthy pattern of behavior that he is apt to do so at any moment, and tit for tat strictly applies. Are there other behaviors that would justify the use of such terms? Of course: there is the use of actual ad hominems; there are various behaviors that a reasonable person will find exasperating (such as ignoring the responses that one has received to one's previous statements and simply plowing ahead :-); there is outright evasion in its various forms; there is "memory hole" type behaviors, in which the points explained in previous discussions simply disappear from the individual's memory banks, as if those conversations never happened; and so on. Bottom line: I never tried to justify my use of such words by saying that "Bill and others do it too." By the way: if you would do me the courtesy of inserting your comments into the context of my remarks--a courtesy that I extend to you--you would discover that it is much easier to not go off track in a discussion, as you did above. --Mitchell Jones}*** You're defense that I myself act >closed-minded too is without merit ***{I repeat: that was not my defense. You are off the tracks, out in the woods, bereft of context, and your comments are about a fantasy that exists only in your own mind. If you wish to have a substantive discussion with me, then you should accept the discipline of inserting your remarks into the context provided by the message to which you are responding. If, on the other hand, your goal is to convince yourself that what you want to believe is, in fact, correct, then simply continue merrily on your present course. --MJ}*** because I'm not objecting to all >closed-mindedness in general, instead I'm objecting to your closed- >mindedness ABOUT ANOMALOUS EVIDENCE. ***{No you aren't, because my "closemindedness" is a fiction. The fact of the matter is that, however certain I may be about a conclusion, I retain, on principle, a willingness to listen and respond to criticism. Unlike you, I do *not* simply lapse into silence and plow straight ahead. This willingness to respond is the essential corrective which ensures that my mind remains open, and the absence of which ensures that yours remains closed. And, by the way, the above insight sheds light on your earlier claim that certainty equates to closemindedness: that equation is valid for you, because you lapse into silence when you encounter criticisms that you cannot refute--as you have done in this post, by snipping out the entire context of the lengthy message to which you are ostensibly replying. Such an equation is, however, not valid for me, because my norm is to respond point-by-point to every argument that is thrown my way. Bottom line: in you, certainty equates to closemindedness; in me, it does not. --Mitchell Jones}*** Your defense that I'm driven by >narcissism is without merit because your behavior is still 'against the >law' regardless. ***{Wrong again. There is not not, and has never been, a rule on this group against using words such as "nonsense," "absurd," "bogus," etc. And if closemindedness is against the law here, then you are the outlaw, not me. I am, in fact, the only person in this group who is openminded on principle, about--and I mean this quite literally--everything whatsoever. The reason: my norm is to respond point by point to all criticisms, irrespective of topic. --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> ***{As I have already pointed out to you, bluntness does not imply >> hostility, though people do, in general, tend to be more blunt with >> people toward whom they feel hostility. > >Now *that's* a good point. ***{Yup. Like all the others. :-) --MJ}*** I didn't know that you had problems with Jed. ***{In that case, why don't you simply explain to us the energy source that propels your flying saucer, so we can all transport ourselves to whatever planet you have been on? :-) --MJ}*** >So, you're only ridiculing *Jed* about polywater, and not ridiculing any >other subscribers who take Mpemba effect seriously? ***{As I said in the message that you are in the process of ignoring, I hesitate to accept the use of the word "ridicule" in this context. Is it "ridicule" to point out an embarassing implication of the position that a person has in fact taken? I'm not sure that it is. I am, however, sure of this: Jed would point out such an implication to me in an instant, if he had the opportunity. How do I know? Because he routinely *imagines* that he has such opportunities, and he never lets them pass. Result: in strict accordance with tit for tat, I dispense to him the same potion that he gives to me. --MJ}*** If so, this makes a >very big difference because Disbelief is a smaller problem here if it is >not accompanied by any hostility ***{As I explained above, certain disbelief is not an instance of closemindedness unless accompanied by a refusal to respond to criticism. (Or by an avoidance of people who are predisposed to be critical.) --MJ}*** , or by assumptions that the opposing view >is irrational, or by self-righteousness, or by any locked-in viewpoints. ***{No false viewpoint can remain locked in if an individual is in the habit of responding point-by-point to criticism, provided only that he places himself in situations where he will encounter it. --MJ}*** >I started this "moderation" stuff because I thought you were reacting with >hostility TO THE MPEMBA EFFECT; that you were trying to dismiss it based >on ignorance, and that you were belittling all Mpemba-supporters as >irrational "polywater believers." I thought that you were mildly >disgusted by the illogic of their suggestions that the Mpemba-effect >evidence could be valid. > >Is this not the case? OK, granted that the hostility stuff is mostly from >your dealings with Jed. But isn't the rest true? If not, then it's my >mistake. ***{I was responding to my interpretation of Jed's position--to wit: that he believed that, other things equal, hot water could freeze faster than cold. Was that a correct interpretation? The answer is yes, and here is the proof: I said: "Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than cold water." Jed said: "Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the experiment kept coming out the other way." In my view, such a position equates to a belief in polywater. The reason: if we equalize every known variable other than temperature (and properties linked to temperature), and hot water freezes faster than cold, then it can only be because water is a mixture containing substances presently unknown to science--i.e., "polywater." (In that case, the quick-freezing types of mixture are disproportionately represented in the higher temperature sample, and the slow-freezing types are disproportionately represented in the lower temperature sample.) The first question, then, granting I believe Jed's position equates to a belief in polywater, is this: is it ridicule, or merely honesty, to say that? Frankly, I am hard pressed to see what would be wrong with saying it even if Jed's manners were better than they are. Has "polywater" become such an emotion-charged term that only a privileged few are permitted to use it? If so, then what term are we to use instead? Or, alternatively, how are we to even discuss a theory which has no name? --Mitchell Jones}*** >(By "ignorance" in the above I mean this: taking a position without even >looking at the physical evidence. ***{Water is probably the most thoroughly investigated substance known to man. I have been looking at physical evidence relating to its properties, on an occasional basis, for most of my life. Thus when I treat as absurd a claim which implies that it is a mixture containing unknown substances, I am *not* taking a position without looking at physical evidence. The fact is that I have looked at *massive* evidence, and Jed has trotted forth a claim that clashes with that evidence. Result: I perceived his comments to be ridiculous and, since he uses such words all the time when responding to me, I dismissed his claim as "totally bogus utter nonsense." I must emphasize again, however, that this was a response to Jed. If, on the other hand, Robin had been the one to trot forth that claim, I would *not* have dismissed it in such a peremptory fashion, though the extent of my disbelief would have been equally extreme in both cases. (I do recall dismissing something on Robin's website as "rubbish" awhile back, as it happens, but that was because he had referenced the website without telling me it was his--a mistake which he corrected as soon as his ears began to burn. :-) --MJ}*** >Also, I was not implying that your behavior was representative. You're >misreading that. I was only stating that it was OCCURING. You're smart. >Surely you know that a person doesn't have to be a confirmed pseudoskeptic >to occasionally lapse into pseudoskeptical behavior. If I notice even the >most anomaly-supportive, long-time subscribers acting like pseudoskeptics >and trying to ignore anomalous evidence while ridiculing those who take an >anomaly seriously, I will bring this to the group's attention. And I >certainly hope that others will do the same if I myself act that way. ***{I don't have a problem with that, in principle, just as long as you continue to be open to corrective feedback. I must reiterate, though, that I don't see how you can really *be* open, as long as you persist in the bad habits that I noted earlier--to wit: (a) dropping the context of a discussion by snipping away the remarks to which you are responding, and (b) simply saying nothing at all in response to large numbers of cogent criticisms. It seems to me that, on principle, we *must* respond to strong criticisms, at a bare minimum, and that, to be really safe, we probably ought to respond point-by-point, in context, to virtually *all* criticisms. (If we strongly disbelieve a conclusion, and we are wrong, then our assessment of what is "strong" and "weak" is likely to be flawed.) --MJ}*** >> Pathological skepticism is an outgrowth of evasion--i.e., of the >> determination by evil people to appear to be right, even when >> they are wrong, by diverting discussions away from the logic >> and evidence that will demonstrate that they are wrong. > >EXACTLY. If you seriously examine the evidence supporting the Mpemba >effect, it might demonstrate your position to be misguided, and show that >the effect is actually genuine. ***{Remember: I was responding to the material supplied by Jed (and, subsequently, to his follow-up remarks which confirmed my interpretation of that material). That means I was taking "the Mpemba effect" to mean "situations where, other things equal, hot water freezes faster than cold." Now, given that interpretation, let me turn the question around: do you think the probability that such a notion is true is great enough to justify going into the lab to investigate it? I ask you to be honest here, and to be aware that, if you say yes, I am going to expect you to go into your lab immediately and begin doing experiments to investigate this effect. :-) --MJ}*** You argue that any evidence is irrelevant >because logical reasoning shows that it must be a mistake. ***{Not quite. I argue that logical reasoning forces the conclusion that this is just a new variant of the old "polywater" claim, and, as such, flies in the face of massive evidence about the nature of water as well as specific research that demolished the earlier variant. What the logical reasoning shows, in short, is that this is a polywater claim. Once that has been demonstrated, we can then apply additional logic--probabilistic logic--to a massive body of physical evidence, and dismiss the claim. --MJ}*** This is not >scientific. To find the hole in logic, scientists see if physical >evidence contradicts its conclusions! ***{That is an oversimplified and unbalanced view. In the real world, when the logic and the facts are both clear, they invariably agree. Result: (a) logic beats "facts"--which means: when the logic is clear and facts are not, go with the logic; and (b) facts beat "logic"--which means: when the facts are clear and the logic is not, go with the facts. To focus solely on (b) to the exclusion of (a) is an error that is guaranteed, over the course of a lifetime, to have multiple and devastating consequences. The reason: in ordinary life, if you develop your reasoning skills, you will find far, far more opportunities to settle issues by clarifying logic than by clarifying facts. For the most part, like it or not, you will forever remain in the position of an outsider who must rely on other people to report the facts, with the unavoidable consequence that the facts are unclear. Result: in most cases logic is going to be the only instrument you have for deciding what is true. Bottom line: your awareness that logic beats "facts," in the long run, is going to be of enormously more practical benefit than your awareness that facts beat "logic." --Mitchell Jones}*** The opposite is Pathological >Skepticism. ***{Not if the "opposite" you have in mind is (a), above. The precept that logic beats "facts" is an essential tool of the reasoning mind and, as such, has nothing whatsoever to do with pathological skepticism. As I said the other day: "Pathological skepticism is solely and exclusively a manifestation of the tendency of most people, when reasoned arguments fail, to resort to the tactics of *evasion*--which means: to switch the focus of the discussion away from reason, and toward the exchange of personal pejoratives. Pathological skepticism is an outgrowth of evasion--i.e., of the determination by evil people to appear to be right, even when they are wrong, by diverting discussions away from the logic and evidence that will demonstrate that they are wrong." --Mitchell Jones}*** >I think others here will agree, since your sort of argument is VERY >familiar. Exactly this argument has been directed against Cold Fusion >throughout its history. ***{No, the similarities are superficial, while the differences are profound. In spite of that, you are to be applauded for struggling with these questions. It is a sign of a moral and philosophical bent that is sadly lacking in most people. However, this type of subject matter is viciously complex, precisely *because* evil people strive with might and main, throughout their lives, to conceal what they are. Result: it is damnably difficult to distinguish between good and evil. Decades of effort and thought, or the assistance of someone who has already spent a lifetime applying reason to such issues, is required. These are *not* matters to be taken lightly. --MJ}*** Anti-CF pseudoskeptics, when evidence from the >real world threatens to poke big holes in their reasoning, must become >evasive and go find justifications to ignore what the real world is >telling them. ***{True enough. --MJ}*** They essentially say what I think you are saying: "Don't >look at the evidence because Logic clearly shows that it must be a >mistake!" ***{Again, no. In the case of the Mpemba effect (as espoused by Jed Rothwell), logic is needed to comprehend precisely what it is that is being claimed--to wit: polywater--after which it becomes possible to recognize that the evidence against it is already massive and overwhelming. You use the logic, in short, to recognize what the evidence is. Without it, there is no way to tell what is relevant and what is not. --MJ}*** Such a statement demonstrates ignorance of science. It is the >statement of a law student or an expert in debate, not of a scientist. ***{These issues are difficult to clarify, as already noted, and I hesitate to speculate about why you are having so much difficulty following what I am saying. Nevertheless, if I were to suggest one thing for you to think about here, it would be the ubiquitous nature of logic in science. Surely you can see that it is impossible to design, run, or interpret an experiment without it, and that it quite literally lies at the core of everything. If you can somehow manage to agree with that, then perhaps it will become less plausible to you that reliance on logic is, to any degree whatsoever, involved in the phenomenon known as "pathological skepticism." --MJ}*** > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 20:08:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13946; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:08:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:08:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:06:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"D45dC3.0.qP3.c23Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Folks, > >This gasflow measurement is really getting interesting. Take a look at the >latest "impossible" results: > >http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow.html > >Please help me figure out what's going on! ***{The frictional resistance of the plug of water that is being pushed along the tube is directly proportional to its length. Result: the longer the plug, the harder it is to push it along. Result: your most accurate measurement of gas flow is the one using the shortest possible plug. That means the gas flow measurement you got when you pushed the short plug along the horizontal tube is better than the measurement you got when you pushed the long plug in the vertically oriented U-shaped tube. (To test this analysis, use plugs of varying lengths in the horizontal tube. I would predict that the speed of movement, other things equal, will be inversely proportional to the length of the plug. --MJ}*** > >Thanks > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 20:10:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13748; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:07:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:07:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:07:18 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: gasflow measurements In-reply-to: <006a01c06a05$8f714600$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219220638.023496c0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"kMoVl.0.kM3.m13Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:49 PM 12/19/2000 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Is it possible that the methanol has such a high vapor >pressure at room temperature that small temperature >differences may cause it to evaporate at a high rate. >I keep thinking of those bubbler glass >toys that boil due to body heat when held. Perhaps >diffusion pump oil might be a better plug to avoid >potential problems. Good suggestion, George. You may be onto something. I will check it out and report back. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 20:13:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15029; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:11:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:11:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:11:54 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: gasflow measurements In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219220809.0235cd98 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"YGVcg2.0.fg3.a53Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:54 AM 12/20/2000 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Is it possible that the rate of hydrogen absorption in the nickel is >sensitively dependent upon pressure? Gosh, I was under the impression that the absorption of H into Ni was pretty much negligible at these low temps. > I hesitate to suggest this, because it >so unlikely, but in the interest of covering all the bases, does a kink >develop in the hose where it connects to the top of the U tube, as the >weight of the hose pulls it down? No, there's no kink! You can see the hose pretty clearly in the first photo of: http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow.html Good thing to check for, though. Thanks! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 20:45:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22944; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:43:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:43:11 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:43:11 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: gasflow measurements In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219223510.0235edc0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"qFF0Z2.0.Pc5.UZ3Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:06 PM 12/19/2000 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The frictional resistance of the plug of water that is being pushed >along the tube is directly proportional to its length. Result: the longer >the plug, the harder it is to push it along. Result: your most accurate >measurement of gas flow is the one using the shortest possible plug. That >means the gas flow measurement you got when you pushed the short plug along >the horizontal tube is better than the measurement you got when you pushed >the long plug in the vertically oriented U-shaped tube. (To test this >analysis, use plugs of varying lengths in the horizontal tube. I've already checked this out...and the results are independent of the length of the plug (I tested lengths from 1/4" to 4"). Furthermore, there's the case of the U-tube (which has a super-long plug of liquid in it), with the liquid hoisted up on the left (gas entry) side so that it "pulls" on the cell. The methanol is so fluid that, if I suddenly release the vacuum that's holding it up on the left side, it really rushes down to seek its own level. During the gas measurements, it's actually being LET down gently by the incoming gas...so there's just no way it can be impeding the incoming flow....and yet the flow is VERY slow using the U-tube. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 21:51:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04571; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:48:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:48:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219223510.0235edc0 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001219133458.038180d0 earthtech.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:46:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"5RgY13.0.H71.MW4Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:06 PM 12/19/2000 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The frictional resistance of the plug of water that is being pushed >>along the tube is directly proportional to its length. Result: the longer >>the plug, the harder it is to push it along. Result: your most accurate >>measurement of gas flow is the one using the shortest possible plug. That >>means the gas flow measurement you got when you pushed the short plug along >>the horizontal tube is better than the measurement you got when you pushed >>the long plug in the vertically oriented U-shaped tube. (To test this >>analysis, use plugs of varying lengths in the horizontal tube. > >I've already checked this out...and the results are independent of the >length of the plug (I tested lengths from 1/4" to 4"). > >Furthermore, there's the case of the U-tube (which has a super-long plug of >liquid in it), with the liquid hoisted up on the left (gas entry) side so >that it "pulls" on the cell. The methanol is so fluid that, if I suddenly >release the vacuum that's holding it up on the left side, it really rushes >down to seek its own level. During the gas measurements, it's actually >being LET down gently by the incoming gas...so there's just no way it can >be impeding the incoming flow....and yet the flow is VERY slow using the >U-tube. ***{I see what you are saying: in the negative pressure configuration, speed ought to be directly proportional to plug length, rather than inversely proportional, since the longer the plug the greater its weight, and thus the lower the pressure of the gas in the tube. And yet, despite that, the speed is less. Thus, logically, something is either impeding the movement--e.g., a kink--or else is slowing the rate of the reaction in the cell. You say there is no kink, so the pressure drop must be slowing the rate of the electrolysis in the cell, or else it must be speeding up the rate of recombination. Since the former is linked to the current flow, it must be the latter, so the question is this: how can the recombination rate be inversely proportional to the pressure in the cell? Well, let's see, the recombination rate ought to be directly proportional to temperature. Since temperature is directly proportional to pressure, it would seem to follow that, again, the negative pressure plug ought to show the most rapid movement: lower pressure implies a lower temperature, which implies a lower recombination rate, hence more rapid evolution of gas. So this idea doesn't work, either. OK, suppose that large vapor particles--e.g., methanol molecules--act as sites for recombination. In that case, the lower the pressure, the more methanol evaporates. Result: more sites for recombination, hence a lower the rate of gas evolution in the cell, hence a slower speed of movement for the plug. Hey, that works! Therefore, maybe vapor particles from the plug are enhancing the recombination rate in the cell. Does the cell run hotter when the plug is moving more slowly? --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Inc. >4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 >Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 >512-346-3017 (FAX) >http://www.earthtech.org ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 19 22:15:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA11398; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:13:55 -0800 Message-ID: <002f01c06a4c$7691cfa0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:16:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"SSqOC3.0.0o2.Zu4Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suspect that the moving fluid slug in the horizontal section is acting as an ideal fluid. Superfluid helium creeps verticaly out of a dewar! But methanol slug can't travel if it results in compression or rarefaction - when in series with a U tube. To see if it has anything to do with electrolysis, why not try some other gas like dry nitrogen or argon? Isn't there a bubble flowmeter that works by bubbling gas through a tube and counting the bubbles (opticaly or sonicaly)? Then there is a veturi with silicon pressure sensors before and after to measure the pressure drop, but for your small volume, that might be too sensitive to temperature & other drift. My preferance would be ultrasonic- many different modes there. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:48:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10143; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:48:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:55:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"SY3Zw1.0.OU2.297Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At last I managed to get to a computer with a browser and to check your website. Something I discovered to be very useful in checking flowing calorimiters (yes that is seemingly irrelevant because the flow was liquid) was placing a pressure guage on a T from the liquid output tube from the cell to make sure there were no unseen obstructions in the calorimetry fluid flow, e.g. in the cell itself. I used a pressure guage from an inexpensive sphygmomanometer, which was marked in mm/hg. It had a nipple that was readily used as-is with tygon tubing of the kind you are using. Though you don't have the same situation, a similar set-up may give you some useful information, provided you don't find the problem some other way first. I would suggest placing a pressure meter of some kind on a T just outside the cell, and then placing a valve in the tubing at the furthest most possible place. The purpose of this is to check the effect of artificially produced back pressure and also to check to see if there are any unexpected pressure changes in normal operation. You can then, using the valve, check the flow rate under differing pressure conditions, and set the back pressure at higher pressures that the liquids provide - just to see what is happening. Possibly, by closing the valve, you will see the pressure rise to some point and stop - indicating the leak flow reached equilibrium with the gas evolution. Of course, you would not want to do this without a pressure guage to tell you if the pressure is getting too high. Your results seem to be consistent with a (sporadic?) leak somewhere in the cell itself or prior to the flow meter. You might want to paint you system with soap water when it is under good pressure - to check for a leak. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 00:51:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10700; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:50:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:50:28 -0800 Message-ID: <00c301c06a62$5348e7c0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:53:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"hHxhs.0.6d2.KB7Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The answer finaly beat me upside the head. Given an infinitely long horizontal tube with a frictionless piston (fluid), an infinitesimal force (pressure) on one side, the fluid slug will travel an infinite distance, because the pressure on one side is virtualy always greater than the vast atmosphere. PV/T (1) = PV/T (2) - Volume 2 is virtualy infinity if you exhaust to the atmosphere. But if the fluid slug is trapped between two pressures, even a negative one, then you can worry about volumes. Bubble your gas through a cylinder full of dark ink, and shine a laser pointer on a phototransistor, or use a slotted optocoupler, and let the computer count the bubbles. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 01:53:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA19688; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:52:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:52:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:51:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Suppression of anomalous energy sources Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"3Yn6-2.0.Yp4.b58Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A About eight years ago I contacted our senior senator, Paul Wellstone about this. He was interested, but wanted proof. Those of you who have followed the career of Joseph Newman will appreciate my reluctance to follow up, based on his work. The recent thread of Mitchel Schwartz?, et al, being denied a C F patent has given me reason to bring the subject again. Having a patent professionally written, appealing it's rejection, and then taking that rejection to an appeals court, is a process which could easily set you back $50,000. Someone clearly believed in the intellectual property that they were trying to protect. Based on what I've heard, this is just the latest example of the PTO's refusal to grant C F patents. Then there is the Piantelli patent which reports to produce both heat and helium 3. Additionally there the much maligned anomalous isotopic ratios in the used electrodes from P F cells. In addition to the other pollution produced by our energy generation, there is radio active waste. This is something that most people fear far more than ordinary pollution, with good reason. If the story of radioactive waste remediation has broken in the main stream media, I have yet to hear it. I recently heard that there is a plan afoot to spend $150 B to dig a hole in Russia and bury it. I don't want to go off half cocked, so I'm asking the opinions of you Vortexians. In particular I want to know what Edmond Storms thinks about this. I think that Ed and the Senator, who used to teach political science as a small college south of Minneapolis, would like each other. If you think that this is a good idea, I'll introduce you. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 01:53:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA18932; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:48:02 -0800 Message-ID: <00b201c06a6b$868ce740$a678add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: answer tp arpanet question Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:59:17 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C06A41.9BB012C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"1WhpD2.0.gd4.H18Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C06A41.9BB012C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Below is a link to information about the history of arpanet which was = the first internet. It says it was finally ended and the last few nodes = decomissioned in 1994. Why and how did someone show up at my site using = a system which doesn't EXIST anymore?=20 Link: http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/historical.html MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C06A41.9BB012C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
   Below is a link to = information about=20 the history of arpanet which was the first internet. It says it was = finally=20 ended and the last few nodes decomissioned in 1994. Why and how did = someone show=20 up at my site using a system which doesn't EXIST anymore?
Link: http://www.c= ybergeography.org/atlas/historical.html
 
MJ
 
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C06A41.9BB012C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 06:20:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24700; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:19:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:19:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40D568.B6B74C36 gte.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:51:13 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Experimental data on over-unity of hadronic reactors References: <000a01c06a17$300ca120$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FhPWx3.0.s16.20CGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Experimental Data on the efficiency PlasmaArcFlow Hadronic reactors. Comments, criticisms or research are solicited. Hi folks, Thanks for your interest in the over-unity of Santilli Hadronic reactors. Let me clarify up-front that the origin of the over-unity is grossly unsettled at this writing. The over-unity cannot be understood scientifically (that is numerically from unadulterated first principles), and its interpretation via hadronic mechanics is under way. Here are a few experimental data everybody is welcome to verify by visiting USMagnegas in Largo, Florida (not a bad idea these wintery days...) OVER-UNITY FOR PLASMA-ARC-FLOW REACTORS PROCESSING WATER ELECTRIC ENERGY PREDICTED by quantum mechanics for the production of one cf of H, O and C plasma: 2,400 BTU/cf (estimated error hereon +/- 5%) This number includes all possible first order processes, e.g., evaporation and separation of water and carbon, increase of temperature to 10K F, ionization energies for of H, O and C atoms, etc. etc. ELECTRIC ENERGY MEASURED from the power company panel (NOT the arc) 340 BTU/cf ENERGY IN GAS PREDICATED BY QUANTUM CHEMISTRY for the ideal condition of a 50% H2 and 50% CO as expected for the reactors 315 BTU/cf ENERGY IN GAS MEASURED via various tests 600-650 BTU/cf Note that with a gas 50% H2 and 50% CO you cannot cut metal, while the gas produced via the plasmaArcFlow reactors cuts 1" thick metal plates twice as fast as acetylene. HEAT IN LIQUID PREDICTED BY QUANTUM CHEMISTRY due to the recombination of H into H2 (releasing 110 Kcal/mole) and C and O into O (releasing 255 Kcal/mole) 1,994 BTU/cf HEAT IN LIQUID MEASURED in lab 300 BTU/cf SCIENTIFIC UNDER-UNIT PREDICTED BY QUANTUM MECHANICS AND CHEMISTRY Total energy out / total energy in = (315 + 1994) BTU/cf / 2400 BTU/cf = 0.96 COMMERCIAL OVER-UNITY OF SANTILLI HADRONIC REACTORS FOR THE PROCESSING OF WATER Total energy out/ electric energy in = (600 + 300 ) / 340 = 2.64 COMMENTS: 1) Note that the separation of water is one of the most "under-unity" processes in science. The "missing" energy is that in the water molecule. Thus, the reactors were conceived to and are tapping energy from the water molecule. This principle is applicable to a variety of other sources. If you do not see this possibility the other guy will. 2) The ,main over-unity is that in the creation of the plasma which is predicted BTU/cf / measured BTU/cf = 2400 / 340 = 7.05 That the main mechanism which cannot be explained via QM but admits an interpretation via the covering hadronic mechanics. It is due to new contact interactions and effects which cannot be represented via a potential or a Hamiltonian and are represented via a generalization of the unit. Alternatively, the ONLY possible interpretation is via a NONUNITARY theory, that is, a theory outside the class of equivalence of QM. Hadronic mechanics is the ONLY known nonunitary theory which is invariant, that is, predicts the same numerical value for the same quantity under the same conditions at different times. Other nonunitary theories do not. 3) Note that the heat energy in the reactor is UNDER-UNITY in the sense that the reactor produce ONE SIXTH of the heat predicted by QM. This is explained via the new chemical species of magnecules predicted by hadronic chemistry, i.e., stable clusters of individual atoms, dimmers, and molecules under a new magnetic bond which are unidentifiable at the MS and have no IR signature, as established in numerous tests (McClallen Air Force Base in Sacramento, Pinellas County Forensic Lab, plus several foreign tests). In fact, the magnecules permits the interpretation that NOT all H are turned into H2 and not all C and O are turned into CO because magnecules have large percentages of individual H and O and C atoms. Actually only 1/6 of H2 and CO are forced, as confirmed by IR tests. The inclusion of un bounded H, C and O in magnecules then explains the over-unity of the gas, i.e., its BTU value about 2 that predicted. In fact, rather than being present in the gas, the H2 and CO molecules are formed during combustion, thus releasing much more energy than a conventional gas. This second principle for ac heaving over-unity is also applicable to a variety of other cases whether for liquids or gases. If you do not see it, the other guy will. 4) The above commercial over-=unity of 2.6 is the lowest of the reactors because it is derived for water. The use of antifreeze, oil and other wastes produce much bigger over-unities. 5) Finally, the above over-unity is that at the lowest operating conditions of the reactors, that is, at about 50 kWh, atmospheric pressure and about 150 F. The over-unity inc rfeases nonlionearly with the increase of the electric energy, prerssure, and heat. Thus, the iundicated over-unity is the LOWEST POSSIBLE. Wait and see the over-unity of the new forthcoming reactors at USMagnegas with 250 kWh, 200 psi and 450 F !!! Comments would be appreciated. Criticisms are welcome and appreciated if an d only if presen ted after acquiring a TECHNICAL knwoeldge. I have moderate funds to support research on the final understanding of the scientific numerical over-unity by Ph.D. researchers capable to digest the new hadronic mechanics and chemistry. Sincerely William F. Pound Chairman Grant COMMITTEE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH __________________________________________ THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH P. O. Box 1577 Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A. Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275 E-address ibr gte.net Web sites http://www.i-b-r.org http://www.santillimagnegas.com _________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:23:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18010; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:21:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:21:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:21:38 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j_gGd1.0.DP4.SvCGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > About eight years ago I contacted our senior senator, Paul Wellstone > about this. He was interested, but wanted proof. Those of you who > have followed the career of Joseph Newman will appreciate my > reluctance to follow up, based on his work. The recent thread of > Mitchel Schwartz?, et al, being denied a C F patent has given me > reason to bring the subject again. > > Having a patent professionally written, appealing it's rejection, and > then taking that rejection to an appeals court, is a process which > could easily set you back $50,000. Someone clearly believed in the > intellectual property that they were trying to protect. Based on what > I've heard, this is just the latest example of the PTO's refusal to > grant C F patents. > > Then there is the Piantelli patent which reports to produce both heat > and helium 3. Additionally there the much maligned anomalous isotopic > ratios in the used electrodes from P F cells. > > In addition to the other pollution produced by our energy generation, > there is radio active waste. This is something that most people fear > far more than ordinary pollution, with good reason. If the story of > radioactive waste remediation has broken in the main stream media, I > have yet to hear it. I recently heard that there is a plan afoot to > spend $150 B to dig a hole in Russia and bury it. > > I don't want to go off half cocked, so I'm asking the opinions of you > Vortexians. In particular I want to know what Edmond Storms thinks > about this. I think that Ed and the Senator, who used to teach > political science as a small college south of Minneapolis, would like > each other. If you think that this is a good idea, I'll introduce you. I would be happy to meet Senator Wellstone and educate him about cold fusion. While I think this is a good idea and the required "proof" is now available, I do not think the Senator would want to expend political capital fighting for an idea opposed by leading scientists and the conventional energy industry. Until the phenomenon has been demonstrated to the scientific community to their satisfaction or until someone can see a way to make money from the effect, a politician will have little to gain by promoting cold fusion. In any case, it does no harm to try. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 07:52:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27955; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:47:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:47:26 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001220082741.00953a70 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:57:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: References: <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mIxNa1.0.fq6.DIDGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the list of initials :-) Please in the future refer your initials to full names at least once in a posting for those of us who are new to the discussion... I am assuming CF = Cold fusion, PTO refers to Patent office (country unknown), PF cells ..??? you tell me... I am sorry to be a bother about this and thanks in advance for the clarification. As to "Suppression" I have seen none. Only failure for the honest and success has all ben error and fraud. I hope that we are both totally wrong. At 03:51 AM 12/20/00 -0600, you wrote: >Based on what I've heard, this is just the latest example of the PTO's >refusal to grant C F patents. > >Then there is the Piantelli patent which reports to produce both heat and >helium 3. Additionally there the much maligned anomalous isotopic ratios >in the used electrodes from P F cells. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:04:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24136; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:58:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:56:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"SiHAb3.0.2v5.bKEGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott, I want to suggest you use the method I use which measures the weight of >oil (or water) that is released from a reservoir on to a balance. This method >allows a computer to take and store the data over a long time. This method >not only permits greater accuracy, but trends in time are much more easily >seen. You might even get home once in awhile, with the computer doing all the >work. > >Ed ***{Suppose that Scott bubbles his gases into, say, an inverted test tube filled with water that is resting in a small beaker (which, in turn, has water in the bottom). Result: as gas accumulates in the top of the test tube, the weight of the apparatus (Tygon tubing + test tube + beaker + water + gas) increases by the weight of the gas. Thus if the whole thing is sitting on a sensitive scale, we can read the weight of the gas, and, assuming it is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis, we can then calculate the amount of unrecombined gases being produced. Is that basically what you are saying? If so, this scale is going to have to be *very* sensitive, because the gas isn't going to weigh much. What stops air currents, temperature variations, the dangling tubing, etc., from playing hob with the measurements? Assuming I understand what you are saying, this looks pretty iffy to me. By the way, the Mills claim that Scott is trying to replicate looks like a typcial CF result to me--to wit: an OU claim that rests on an enormously difficult and highly suspect measurement. My guess is that when Scott finally figures out how to obtain an accurate measurement of the gas outflow, it will be clear that the cell isn't OU. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:11:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28995; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:08:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:08:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3F94FA.3B95F671 idirect.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:03:54 -0500 From: Meckanic Organization: Vortex Research Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: answer tp arpanet question References: <00b201c06a6b$868ce740$a678add1 mikejohnston> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------09F99CD37A04DD60AE4361BB" Resent-Message-ID: <"v6G0i3.0.y47.aUEGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------09F99CD37A04DD60AE4361BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Micheal, I had to stop lurking when I saw this one...lol. Funny you should mention site hits from arapanet. I have had a number of them over the last 2 years ;-) and a large number directly out of arpa. Regards, Steve aka Meckanic™ ICQ# 4569541 AIM: x Meckanic x URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic Michael Johnston wrote: > Hi, Below is a link to information about the history of arpanet > which was the first internet. It says it was finally ended and the > last few nodes decomissioned in 1994. Why and how did someone show up > at my site using a system which doesn't EXIST anymore?Link: > http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/historical.html MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html --------------09F99CD37A04DD60AE4361BB Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Micheal,

I had to stop lurking when I saw this one...lol. Funny you should mention site hits from arapanet. I have had a number of them over the last 2 years ;-) and a large number directly out of arpa.

Regards,

Steve
aka Meckanic™
ICQ# 4569541
AIM: x Meckanic x
URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic
 
 

Michael Johnston wrote:

Hi,   Below is a link to information about the history of arpanet which was the first internet. It says it was finally ended and the last few nodes decomissioned in 1994. Why and how did someone show up at my site using a system which doesn't EXIST anymore?Link: http://www.cybergeography.org/atlas/historical.html MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html

  --------------09F99CD37A04DD60AE4361BB-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 09:21:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30936; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:14:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:14:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001220121257.00bf0038 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:43 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Economic revival of old fission power plants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"K3a-E.0.HZ7.PZEGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is an article about old fission power plants. It gives me pause to think they are being run with Gateway computers. I have not been impressed by the quality of the Gateway computers I have dealt with. - Jed New York Times, December 20, 2000, "Nuclear Power's Second Act" By Matthew L. Wald Quotes: VERNON, Vt. ------ Nobody has ordered a new nuclear plant in this country in more than 20 years, but rising demand for electricity and prices for natural gas are forestalling extinction and giving aging reactors a new lease on life. Consider Vermont Yankee, on the banks of the Connecticut River here. For years many people thought that the plant was at death's door. It is one of the oldest nuclear reactors that is still operating in the United States. The core shroud, a crucial internal part that holds the fuel in place and channels cooling water, is showing damage from age. The owners are short of money. But now a bidding war is brewing among three eager buyers, and financial analysts say the winner is likely to invest even more to seek to extend its operating license for decades and possibly to raise its power output. Similar decisions have quietly transformed dozens of plants around the country. While no one expects any American utility to order a new nuclear plant in the foreseeable future, the overall effect is a much-improved prospect for the long-battered industry. Several factors are helping to turn nuclear white elephants into valuable heirlooms. The price of natural gas, the main source for new generation, has quadrupled in the last year. The market price of electricity has soared under deregulation, and the growing economy has led to shortages of generating capacity. "Suddenly people realize that you can actually make money with these plants," said Ted Marston, the chief nuclear officer at the Electric Power Research Institute, a nonprofit research consortium in Palo Alto, Calif., that has helped utilities obtain license renewals beyond the initial 40 years for which they were approved. . . . companies say they want to buy up reactors around the country, and through economies of scale and their extensive nuclear experience, run them better and make more money from their operations. AmerGen has already bought Three Mile Island 1, the undamaged twin of the reactor near Harrisburg, Pa., that experienced the nation's worst nuclear accident. It has also acquired Clinton, in southern Illinois, and Oyster Creek, in Toms River, N.J. Entergy has a deal to buy Nine Mile Point 2 and James A. FitzPatrick, near Scriba, N.Y., and Indian Point 3, in Buchanan, N.Y. While Vermont Yankee has not yet applied for a license extension -- its license is good until 2012, and the sellers are leaving that to a new owner -- applications have been approved or submitted for about a third of the nation's 103 surviving reactors. In addition, in the last decade, 57 reactors have quietly received the commission's permission to increase heat output and thus electric production, according to the Nuclear Energy Institute, a trade association in Washington. Some did it more than once. The capacity increase totals 2,200 megawatts, which is the equivalent of adding two huge reactors. The independent company that owns Vermont Yankee says output could probably be raised by 15 percent at a cost of about $200 for every kilowatt of additional capacity, which is far cheaper than a kilowatt of capacity at a new natural gas plant. Making the investment only makes sense, though, if the owner believes that the plant will run for more than a few years. The higher prices for reactors have pushed them roughly into the range of prices for fossil fuel plants, and do not approach a level that would lead to new nuclear construction. Still, it is a sharp turnaround from the idea that nuclear power would be phased out almost entirely over the next 10 or 15 years. The recovery is visible not only on the balance sheet but in improved operations. Vermont Yankee, for example, now shuts for refueling once every 18 months, and finished the job in 1999 in 34 days. In the 1970's and 1980's, it would shut down every year, for 60 or 70 days. . . . In the early days, emergency shut- downs came every couple of months or so; now they are so infrequent plant managers remember each one, and every manual shutdown. The last shutdown was in August. Before that, Vermont Yankee ran 285 days uninterrupted. The run before that was 372 days, a plant record. The result of more powerful plants running more days of the year is that a reduced number of reactors is producing more and more power; in 1999, the 103 reactors produced more power than the whole industry did in the early 1990's, when the number of plants peaked at 110. . . . Critics say the idea of a 60-year-old reactor makes them nervous. Vermont Yankee's shroud, a barrel- shaped structure around the fuel that directs the flow of water being boiled into steam, shows damage in places that were heated during welding. Metallurgists have diagnosed something called intergranular stress corrosion cracking, a process not understood when the part was made in the 1960's. They have added reinforcing rods around it. . . . engineers, managers and operators insist that simple age is no barrier to performance. "They have B-52's flying around that were flown by the pilots' grandfathers," said Michael G. Laporte, a work management supervisor here. A 20-year extension might make the same true for Yankee Rowe. The owners have spent tens of millions of dollars modernizing and re-analyzing in order to address safety concerns. The control room is now full of digital readouts and a monitoring system that runs on Gateway personal computers, undreamed of in 1966, when work here began. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 10:23:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26900; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:17:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:17:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: gasflow measurements Resent-Message-ID: <"P2f5V.0.Da6.vUFGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Something I discovered to be very useful in checking flowing calorimiters ... was placing a pressure guage on a T from the liquid output tube from the cell to make sure there were no unseen obstructions in the calorimetry fluid flow..." That should have said:""Something I discovered to be very useful in checking flowing calorimiters ... was placing a pressure guage on a T from the liquid output tube from the PUMP to make sure there were no unseen obstructions in the calorimetry fluid flow..." In your case the cell is analagous to the pump. I should have noted that the tubing from the T to the pressure guage was filled with air. The liquid visibly moved up the T branch (be it oriented vertically or horizontally) as the air between the T and the pressure guage compressed and provided a good second eyeball check on pressure changes. If no pressure guage is available, simply using a long air filled tube blocked at the end provides a look at what is happening pressure-wise. You could do a similar thing by making a T to a long closed tube with a small slug of water in it to read the pressure from via delta V. The longer the tube the more sensitive the pressure reading. Now this brings up a point that was raised by Dan Galburt on the HSG list. You likely have a large volume of gas inside the dewar. If you raise the pressure inside the deward, by putting as pressure head on your gas flow meter, say by usuing mercury, the apparent flow rate will be reduced due to the quantity of gas that goes to simply increasing the pressure inside the dewar. Dan Galburt wrote: "I think the apparent low flow for a vertical manometer is due to compression of the volume of gas in the calorimeter as the manometer is displaced. For instance, if a water filled vertical manometer with a 0.04 cc/cm volume per unit length changes height 1 cm, the pressure in the calorimeter rises about (1 cm) / (360 inches- water /atmosphere x 2.54 cm/inch) = 0.00109 atmospheres. This would result in the gas volume shrinking 250cc x 0.00109 = 0.273 cc. Therefore approximately .273 / 0.04 = 7 times as much gas must be generated for the manometer to rise 1 cm. I think this explains your problem. With mercury this effect would be 13X worse as you have observed. For a horizontal tube you would get an accurate reading." I figured that this must not be "the" explanation, because your initial experiments showed no sensitivity of flow rate measured to the pressure head in your flow meter. However, if you do have a large volume of gas in the cell then his explanation must be valid. Perhaps you used a larger volume of liquid when initally testing the flow meter? At any rate, a good measure of pressure at the cell outlet should help determine the exact situation. Also, reducing the gas volume by adding more electrolyte should help. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 10:47:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05803; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:43 -0800 Message-ID: <01cb01c06abc$cd47bb00$5c8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Harvesting/Concentrating Light Leptons for Over-Unity Experiments Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:40:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06A79.B41C1420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"fWB5c.0.ZQ1.VtFGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06A79.B41C1420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Negative Light Lepton Concentration is a starting point for using LLs in CF/OU experiments. The values of ~ 0.45 Ev for O2 and the Water Clusters that range up to > 1.75 eV indicate that various electrostatic devices, Passive (Electrets) or Dynamic (Van de Graaff) can be used to Sequester the LL- species. http://webbook.nist.gov/chemistry/ea-ser.htm >From here, mixing the LL-/Molecule ion group into the various CF/OU gases or electrolytes should be a breeze. The best guess for the rest Mass/Energy of the LL (+/-) Pairs is 27.2 eV each, and they would have to be created in large quantity from the 54.4 EUV from the Solar He II Transition Photons or such in the upper atmosphere. For instance running the water (or air) over a positively charged surface such capture the LL- so that it can be used in the Electrolysis cells. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06A79.B41C1420 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Electron Affinity Search.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Electron Affinity Search.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://webbook.nist.gov/chemistry/ea-ser.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://webbook.nist.gov/chemistry/ea-ser.htm Modified=20D8876BBA6AC001CF ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06A79.B41C1420-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 10:54:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07880; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:49:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:49:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40F158.A897DFCB ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:50:18 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z70963.0._w1.9zFGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Scott, I want to suggest you use the method I use which measures the weight of > >oil (or water) that is released from a reservoir on to a balance. This method > >allows a computer to take and store the data over a long time. This method > >not only permits greater accuracy, but trends in time are much more easily > >seen. You might even get home once in awhile, with the computer doing all the > >work. > > > >Ed > > ***{Suppose that Scott bubbles his gases into, say, an inverted test tube > filled with water that is resting in a small beaker (which, in turn, has > water in the bottom). Result: as gas accumulates in the top of the test > tube, the weight of the apparatus (Tygon tubing + test tube + beaker + > water + gas) increases by the weight of the gas. Thus if the whole thing is > sitting on a sensitive scale, we can read the weight of the gas, and, > assuming it is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis, > we can then calculate the amount of unrecombined gases being produced. Is > that basically what you are saying? If so, this scale is going to have to > be *very* sensitive, because the gas isn't going to weigh much. What stops > air currents, temperature variations, the dangling tubing, etc., from > playing hob with the measurements? Assuming I understand what you are > saying, this looks pretty iffy to me. No Mitchell, this is not the method I use. You can see a photograph of the device on my web page at http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/. > > > By the way, the Mills claim that Scott is trying to replicate looks like a > typcial CF result to me--to wit: an OU claim that rests on an enormously > difficult and highly suspect measurement. My guess is that when Scott > finally figures out how to obtain an accurate measurement of the gas > outflow, it will be clear that the cell isn't OU. This particular cell may be dead. In addition, unless a recombiner is in the cell, I would not trust any light water measurement. On the other hand, the heavy water method has produce excess energy on numerous occasions using closed cells and very good calorimetry. But, then we have been down this road before. Ed Storms > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety > than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 11:09:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01931; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:04:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:04:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4105D8.9A8DE55 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:17:44 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Off topic: Private e-mail address piracy? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n_g-i2.0.5U.tAGGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dec. 20, 2,000 Vortex, I have been noticing several 'returned mail' notices coming to my e-mail address, with attachment, when I knew that I had not sent such a message. So I just deleted them without opening the attachment. However looking at the 'returned mail' message revealed that, definitely I had not sent the mail contents although it was from my address. It dawned on me that somebody had pirated and used my e-mail address to bulk mail some ads, promotions, and such stuff skirting regulations about on-line promotions and privacy. Anybody know how this can be wiped out? This practice may be or become more commonplace as time goes on. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 11:32:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11767; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:28:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:28:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A40F158.A897DFCB ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:27:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HiFi replication: Run 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"2Tpcb.0.nt2.tXGGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >Scott, I want to suggest you use the method I use which measures the >>weight of >> >oil (or water) that is released from a reservoir on to a balance. This >>method >> >allows a computer to take and store the data over a long time. This method >> >not only permits greater accuracy, but trends in time are much more easily >> >seen. You might even get home once in awhile, with the computer doing >>all the >> >work. >> > >> >Ed >> >> ***{Suppose that Scott bubbles his gases into, say, an inverted test tube >> filled with water that is resting in a small beaker (which, in turn, has >> water in the bottom). Result: as gas accumulates in the top of the test >> tube, the weight of the apparatus (Tygon tubing + test tube + beaker + >> water + gas) increases by the weight of the gas. Thus if the whole thing is >> sitting on a sensitive scale, we can read the weight of the gas, and, >> assuming it is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis, >> we can then calculate the amount of unrecombined gases being produced. Is >> that basically what you are saying? If so, this scale is going to have to >> be *very* sensitive, because the gas isn't going to weigh much. What stops >> air currents, temperature variations, the dangling tubing, etc., from >> playing hob with the measurements? Assuming I understand what you are >> saying, this looks pretty iffy to me. > >No Mitchell, this is not the method I use. You can see a photograph of >the device >on my web page at http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/. ***{I mucked around in your website for a little while. I didn't find a photo, but I finally came upon http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/fig1rev7.html, which gives a schematic of your gadget. Very ingenious. --MJ}*** >> By the way, the Mills claim that Scott is trying to replicate looks like a >> typcial CF result to me--to wit: an OU claim that rests on an enormously >> difficult and highly suspect measurement. My guess is that when Scott >> finally figures out how to obtain an accurate measurement of the gas >> outflow, it will be clear that the cell isn't OU. > >This particular cell may be dead. In addition, unless a recombiner is in the >cell, I would not trust any light water measurement. On the other hand, >the heavy >water method has produce excess energy on numerous occasions using closed >cells >and very good calorimetry. But, then we have been down this road before. ***{Indubitably. :-) --MJ}*** > >Ed Storms > >> >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> ________________ >> Quote of the month: >> >> "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety >> than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 12:22:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32255; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:36 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001220150303.02a2ea08 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:13:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001220082741.00953a70 postoffice.swbell.net> References: <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QIf6e.0.vt7.lBHGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >I am assuming CF = Cold fusion, PTO refers to Patent office (country >unknown), PF cells ..??? you tell me... The PTO in the U.S. The Japanese PTO grants cold fusion (CF) patents. Pons-Fleischmann cells. The British call them Fleischmann-Pons cells. >As to "Suppression" I have seen none. In that case, you have not looked. I suggest you read Charles Baudette's book "Excess Heat." The suppression has not been organized, or surreptitious, airtight, or uniform. It is not what you would call "cinematic." It does not resemble the contrived in a cheap thriller novel or the recent presidential election in Florida. Nevertheless, it is real. > Only failure for the honest and success has all ben error and fraud. I > hope that we are both totally wrong. The successes in cold fusion have not been error or fraud. They cannot be, because they have been widely replicated at high S/N ratios. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 12:33:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04794; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:26:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:26:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001220151410.00bf0038 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:25:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yY9yR2.0.lA1.TNHGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: "The suppression has not been organized, or surreptitious, airtight, or uniform. . . . It does not resemble the contrived in a cheap thriller novel or the recent presidential election in Florida." I meant to say "contrived plot" or "contrived events" or "contrived and unbelievable series of coincidences." I am not sure how to characterize the Florida elections. Perhaps we should call them the worst data processing glitch since the 1880 Census. It is ironic that many people feared the Y2K problem, caused by too much computerization, when the only real disaster of the year 2000 was caused by not having enough computers. People think of academic "suppression" as something dramatic, performed by evil Gestapo officers, or flinty eyed high government officials and industry moguls secretly collaborating in woodpaneled offices. It is nothing like that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 12:56:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26659; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:44:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:44:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:52:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Experimental data on over-unity of hadronic reactors Resent-Message-ID: <"zMu7t3.0.SW6.ueHGw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Are you now claiming you have obtained "Scientific Over-unity" in your terms, vs "Commercial Over-unity", i.e. more total energy out than total energy in? In other words, are you saying you are producing true free energy, or are you simply obtaining energy by burning "free" trash in an arc? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 13:50:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10142; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:50 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"W19Gu1.0.NU2.LXIGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, thomas malloy wrote: > I don't want to go off half cocked, so I'm asking the opinions of you > Vortexians. In particular I want to know what Edmond Storms thinks > about this. I think that Ed and the Senator, who used to teach > political science as a small college south of Minneapolis, would like > each other. If you think that this is a good idea, I'll introduce you. Good websites about this issue: Suppression of Intellectual Dissent http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/ Supprssion of dissent: what it is, what to do http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/intro/DNAleaflet.html Stamping out dissent http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Martin_93nw.html A letter to a dissident scientist http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Martin_letter.html Suppression of intellectual dissent: action taken in an attempt to stop or penalise a person who makes a public statement or does something that is seen as a threat to a powerful interest group, such as a government, corporation or profession. Typical actions include ostracism, harassment, censorship, forced job transfer, reprimands and dismissal. Suppression is action against dissent that does not involve physical violence. Here's my own opinion, from http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html Q3: IS THERE A CONSPIRACY TO SUPPRESS THESE DEVICES? A: Yes and no. Is there a CONSPIRACY to keep women in low-paying jobs? No, there is just wide-ranging sexism, and sexist employers need not "conspire" together. To the people who are victims of sexist behavior, it may SEEM as if employers are conspiring together against them. But bigotry is a sort of disease which spreads through groups of people. We might become "infected" with bigotry, but obviously no secret organization is needed for bigotry to spread. We don't have to join a secret society in order to become a practicing sexist. Prejudice against the "Free Energy" research field has a similar origin. "Science bigots" constantly attack its adherents. They smear the field with derogatory names and use fairly underhanded tactics to belittle the research. And they believe that their behavior is proper. They are convinced that science needs defense against "hoards of crackpots." It is a war, and in war, underhanded tactics become acceptable. If tomorrow I were to publicly announce that I was attempting to duplicate some inventor's claimed "overunity device," I would expect to receive smug laughter and sneering putdowns from reputable scientists. If my income depended on peer review by other scientists, I would expect to have my funding quickly cut off. But this bigotry is a result of belief systems, not of conspiracy. Skeptical scientists know WITHOUT EXAMINING EVIDENCE that I must be some sort of deranged crackpot, and so they take "justified" action in preventing my waste of funding. But what if they're wrong? Was it a conspiracy which threatened great unconventional discoveries of the past? The scientists who derided and dismissed plate tectonics, flying machines, perceptrons, endosymbiosis, black holes, spacecraft, television, etc., did not belong to any conspiracy. Do the scientists of today ridicule free energy? Well, history teaches us that ever was it so. If something is outside of science, it will be disparaged by scientists. If it later is proved to be genuine, scientists silently accept it, and might even claim that disparagement never occured. History shows many instances of this process. Yet the lessons of history have no impact on the behavior of "science bigots." No conspiracy is needed to explain why a widespread group of people will exhibit identical styles of prejudice and ignorance. F/E devices might be suppressed, but look to human nature for the cause, not to secret conspiracies. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 14:20:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25518; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:15:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:15:39 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Off topic: Private e-mail address piracy? Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:18:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A4105D8.9A8DE55 ix.netcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"CFdev3.0.eE6.A-IGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi. Two comments. First, check you email package settings, you may have things set to auto-reply when a receipt request is made. I've noticed over the past few years that some list members will request this, why they do this is a matter of conjecture and is beyond my Ken. Second, a more common spam technique is to send you html in your mail, which has an image or ad or some such thing. Opening the mail has the same effect, proof that a set of eyeballs looked at the spam and whatever personal info can be gleaned from your public browser info. Plus a cookie can be set, again best to check settings and batten down the hatches. I'm inclined to think that your address has not been hijaaked, there's no good reason to do this really. But if you feel so change the password and complain to your ISP. Although odds are they probably know about the spamming already... K. -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 2:18 PM To: Vortex Subject: Off topic: Private e-mail address piracy? Dec. 20, 2,000 Vortex, I have been noticing several 'returned mail' notices coming to my e-mail address, with attachment, when I knew that I had not sent such a message. So I just deleted them without opening the attachment. However looking at the 'returned mail' message revealed that, definitely I had not sent the mail contents although it was from my address. It dawned on me that somebody had pirated and used my e-mail address to bulk mail some ads, promotions, and such stuff skirting regulations about on-line promotions and privacy. Anybody know how this can be wiped out? This practice may be or become more commonplace as time goes on. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 14:45:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03996; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:41:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:41:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001220165333.00bf0038 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:40:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qrfBw1.0.K-.zLJGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty summed up the situation perfectly: >Q3: IS THERE A CONSPIRACY TO SUPPRESS THESE DEVICES? >A: Yes and no. > >Is there a CONSPIRACY to keep women in low-paying jobs? No, there is just >wide-ranging sexism, and sexist employers need not "conspire" together. To >the people who are victims of sexist behavior, it may SEEM as if employers >are conspiring together against them. This is an excellent example of pervasive, culturally based suppression, very similar to the suppression of heretical science. Sexism used to be so widespread it was invisible. (Except to the victims, of course!) I have the September 1966 issue of Scientific American. The advertisements are so blatantly sexist they would make most people cringe with embarrassment nowadays. Here is a full-page ad on page 13, for Hertz rent-a-car. The top half of the page shows a close-up face of a blue-eyed, blonde woman. The caption is: "When men take us for granted, it's a compliment." The ad copy runs: "You men are all alike. You only come to the Hertz counter for one thing: a dependable car. Once you've got it, you take off. Why shouldn't you? . . . So you can see why a Hertz girl considers it a compliment when a man like you takes us for granted. No word from you puts in a good word for us -- with the boss." I have examples of magazine ads from the 1920s that are so blatant they would be considered obscene today, and you could not reproduce a copy in a daily newspaper. One shows three women straddling a gigantic cigar, saying they love big ones etc. >Yet the lessons of history have no impact on the behavior >of "science bigots." No conspiracy is needed to explain why a widespread >group of people will exhibit identical styles of prejudice and ignorance. >F/E devices might be suppressed, but look to human nature for the cause, >not to secret conspiracies. The problem is ignorance, not only human nature. The "science bigots" I have met know practically nothing about the history of science. Physics textbooks seldom discuss discredited theories or huge mistakes. Science bigots do not realize that their forerunners often suppressed new discoveries, and that many widely-held theories were wildly incorrect. You would think a person with a Ph.D. would know this sort of thing, but people are often incurious about their immediate surroundings and their own fields of expertise. They take things for granted and assume that they already know anything that matters. I once visited the small island in the Caribbean where the landscape was dominated by the ruins of a 19th-century building, across the bay. I asked the people in the town what the building had been. They had no idea. One hazarded a guess that it may have been an opera house, which seems unlikely on an island where the population probably never exceeded a few hundred. The townspeople have seen these ruins their whole lives, but they never wondered what the ruins were doing there, or why anyone would build such a large structure in that remote place. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 15:02:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12052; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:58:08 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001220160353.0096f2a0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:58:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001220150303.02a2ea08 pop.mindspring.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20001220082741.00953a70 postoffice.swbell.net> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Qdu_n3.0.Ey2.0cJGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Whoo nice shootin TEX.... Now put that darn gun down and lets talk Jed: I apologies, my humor is sometimes offencive. I did not intend to insult.. See below At 03:13 PM 12/20/00 -0500, you wrote: >Charles Ford wrote: > >>I am assuming CF = Cold fusion, PTO refers to Patent office (country >>unknown), PF cells ..??? you tell me... > >The PTO in the U.S. The Japanese PTO grants cold fusion (CF) patents. >Pons-Fleischmann cells. The British call them Fleischmann-Pons cells. Thanks ... This is the info I requested... >>As to "Suppression" I have seen none. oops... I know now that you where referring to suppression of dissent and I must agree... There are no men in black... but it is difficult to stand against religious followers of the mediocre norm... >> Only failure for the honest and success has all ben error and >> fraud. I hope that we are both totally wrong. > >The successes in cold fusion have not been error or fraud. They cannot be, >because they have been widely replicated at high S/N ratios. Now here I was referring to the over unity and I did not specify... I never believed Cold Fusion to have claim to over unity. Rather CF would be energy from induced microscopic fusion. Anyway I am intending to start studying this specifically once I have room.. There are 3 remaining projects in front of this. Maybe next time we can talk more peasfull like... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 17:33:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14020; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:31:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:31:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:31:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: hostility, pseudoskepticism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lABXH2.0.uQ3.AsLGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I'm keeping the group on track by using the actions of a single > >subscriber to make a point. When I notice a good example of > > a 'violation', I bring it to the attention of the group to remind > > everyone what we're here for. > > ***{If it were, in fact, a "good" example, then you should be able to > defend your assessment, right? But, thus far, you have made no > attempt to respond to my extensive criticisms of that assessment. You are correct, I'm trying not to answer any arguments. I see that you haven't understood me yet, so I've gone back to simply EXPLAINING myself. I'm taking things one step at a time, again starting with the first issue. When I see that you haven't understood my words, and that you stated them back to me in a way which was totally different than my intentions, I stop and state them another way. Until I get my message across to you, I will continue to do this. I'm starting to get frustrated because I think you might be using emotional debating techniques (in the form of counteraccusations and distractions) in order to AVOID understanding what I'm saying. I am not going to respond to your counteraccusations or arguments until I see that you have first understood my original points. Listen carefully please. This one is still a sticking point: "one of your arguments, although acceptable in other arenas, violates both the rules and the central purpose of this forum." Note well that I do not say that your argument is inherently "wrong". The type of argument you used is only "wrong" when it appears on this forum. Why? First, because I say so: because I've intentionally designed it into the forum. Looking at anomalous evidence is the whole point to Vortex-L. Later we can discuss WHY I say so. I have good reasons to say so, many of which you don't recognize because we haven't discussed them yet. But I think you still miss this point: I have *always* said so. The purpose for the existence of Vortex-L has not changed. It is an intentionally tilted playing field. I have raised objections to your type of argument in the past, and have laid out my intentions as clearly as I could on the website, and am explaining it to you right now. But you clearly have not yet understood me. Do you understand the following? Vortex-L is for looking at experimental evidence for physical anomalies, and for people who do so. That is our central "on-topic" discussion. Vortex-L is NOT a forum for mainstream science research, where anomalies are rightly suspected and usually ignored because they frequently are mistakes, and because they distract researchers from their real goals. > Instead, you appear to be intent on ignoring those comments and plowing > ahead anyway Exactly. This is not a debate. I am currently ignoring most of your counterarguments because I am trying to explain my criticism, my policy and my reasons for it, and am waiting for you to stop counterattacking and instead give a good try at understanding me. Perhaps this will be impossible in the end. I am beginning to suspect that your subconcious "defense mechanisms" are far more powerful than my own, so powerful that it becomes impossible for you to understand simple statements if they are critical of you. Most human beings have the same problem including me, but it's worthwhile to take the time to compensate for it, to communicate and be understood. If you want to debate the Vortex topic range or the rules/moderation issues, or to convince me to adopt your viewpoint, we can do that later. But I refuse to do it now because you have misinterpreted my words, and I will not go forward until that is rectified. You don't have to agree with my criticism or follow any of my advice. You only have to understand what I'm saying. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 17:44:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17441; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:41:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:41:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:41:24 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lJEOn3.0.RG4.7_LGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > ***{Water is probably the most thoroughly investigated substance known > to man. I have been looking at physical evidence relating to its > properties, on an occasional basis, for most of my life. Thus when I > treat as absurd a claim which implies that it is a mixture containing > unknown substances, I am *not* taking a position without looking at > physical evidence. The fact is that I have looked at *massive* evidence, Really? A problem: I know almost nothing about you. If you've described yourself on Vortex-L before, I missed it. When you state your opinions, I don't know which ones are based on direct experience. What's your background? Your day job? Have you done professional research, and if yes, what kind? Do you have your personal info on the web anywhere? Are you a hobbyist with a home lab, or are you exclusively a theorist? Are you a lawyer who has an interest in science? A biochemist with years of direct professional experience? A retired rancher? "You have me at a disadvantage, sir." :) As always, my resume and other stuff is online at http://www.amasci.com/billb.html. I'm a physicist-wannabe. My current day job is embedded design and SW, while my main avocation is writing articles for gradeschool science teachers on explaining electricity (see http://www.amasci.com/ele-edu.html) I hang out on the PHYS-L physics education list. I have a 9-yr old daughter, an ex-wife, and a cat. And a garage full of junk which needs some heaters rigged up so I can still play during the winter. (No, it's not cold enough out there to serve as a Mpemba test environment!) :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 18:07:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26631; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:04:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:04:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:04:27 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bill vs. Mitch: gigantic messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"peNv-3.0.qV6.jKMGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > And, by the way, the above insight sheds light on your earlier claim > that certainty equates to closemindedness: that equation is valid for > you, because you lapse into silence when you encounter criticisms that > you cannot refute--as you have done in this post, by snipping out the > entire context of the lengthy message to which you are ostensibly > replying. Again you are attributing my actions to extremely negative motivations on my part. I wish you'd cut it out, it's really irritating. When I snip out big chunks of messages, is it always because I am refusing to answer those sections? No. Right now I am snipping out huge sections intentionally to avoid what has happened between us time after time on vortex: a 1K message leads to a 5K reply, which leads to 12K, then 30K, etc., messages. If you want me to respond to particular important sections, then I have a BIG problem because I don't know which ones are important to you, or which ones could be snipped without much effect. The same has happened to me as well: I've seen you not answering direct questions which I judged to be extremely important. But I don't know why you did this, and I'd be foolish to assume it was to avoid losing the big competitive debate. > Such an equation is, however, not valid for me, because my norm is to > respond point-by-point to every argument that is thrown my way. Same for me. That's why we get this size-doubling progression which invariably ends up in kilobyte-choked silence. If you send two 40K messages as a reply, should my response be three 40K messages? If it is not, will you become convinced that I conveniently respond only to the parts I think are important? This is a continuing problem. How to solve it? Maybe I could always read your messages, but only respond to the first 5K of all messages. Or can we agree to edit our responses down below a certain size, say 5K or 10K? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 19:56:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06818; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:54:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A417EF4.96F48ADD groupz.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:28 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Chdaq.0.Og1.kxNGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A true scientist, would possible jump in and try to help you replicate the device....one who really believes in science... he would never do more then state, that he did not think it would work...and give his reasons...he would realize that in attempting to replicate, if nothing else, you might learn something, that you, as an individual, had not known before.... The people you are talking about, should have another name... not scientists...as soon as a person does this, scientist should never be used to refer to them. Just a thought....steve opelc William Beaty wrote: > > Prejudice against the "Free Energy" research field has a similar origin. > "Science bigots" constantly attack its adherents. They smear the field > with derogatory names and use fairly underhanded tactics to belittle the > research. And they believe that their behavior is proper. They are > convinced that science needs defense against "hoards of crackpots." It is > a war, and in war, underhanded tactics become acceptable. If tomorrow I > were to publicly announce that I was attempting to duplicate some > inventor's claimed "overunity device," I would expect to receive smug > laughter and sneering putdowns from reputable scientists. If my income > depended on peer review by other scientists, I would expect to have my > funding quickly cut off. But this bigotry is a result of belief systems, > not of conspiracy. Skeptical scientists know WITHOUT EXAMINING EVIDENCE > that I must be some sort of deranged crackpot, and so they take > "justified" action in preventing my waste of funding. But what if they're > wrong? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 20:59:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27665; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:47:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:45:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: hostility, pseudoskepticism Resent-Message-ID: <"8n_eq.0.7m6.FjOGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >I'm keeping the group on track by using the actions of a single >> >subscriber to make a point. When I notice a good example of >> > a 'violation', I bring it to the attention of the group to remind >> > everyone what we're here for. >> >> ***{If it were, in fact, a "good" example, then you should be able to >> defend your assessment, right? But, thus far, you have made no >> attempt to respond to my extensive criticisms of that assessment. > > >You are correct, I'm trying not to answer any arguments. I see that you >haven't understood me yet, so I've gone back to simply EXPLAINING myself. >I'm taking things one step at a time, again starting with the first issue. >When I see that you haven't understood my words, and that you stated them >back to me in a way which was totally different than my intentions, I stop >and state them another way. Until I get my message across to you, I will >continue to do this. ***{Bill, your message was received, and I regard it to be nonsense, for the reasons that I stated and which you ignored. Result: it is an utter waste of time for you to simply keep trying to express your point in different words. I will continue to see the same fallacy in what you are saying regardless of how you re-word it, until and unless you overturn the arguments which cause me to react in that way. --MJ}*** >I'm starting to get frustrated ***{Welcome to the club. --MJ}*** because I think you might be using >emotional debating techniques (in the form of counteraccusations and >distractions) in order to AVOID understanding what I'm saying. ***{No, Bill. I believe I understand what you are saying more deeply than you do, an opinion that will only change if you overturn the reasoning on which it is based. As for the personal criticisms that have been present in some of my remarks, I can only repeat what I have already said: I avoid *introducing* personal criticisms into discussions. However, when they are introduced by someone else--e.g., when someone accuses me of being "arrogant," "closeminded," "unshakeable" in my beliefs, etc.--then the gloves come off. At that point, I speculate just as freely and pointedly about that person's character and motivations as he has speculated about mine. Bottom line: the occasional personal criticisms that I have tossed your way are present only because you opened the door to them, and because they seemed relevant. The reason for what you choose to regard as my lack of understanding, on the other hand, is the obvious one: you have refused to address the arguments which cause me to view your "message" as nonsense. --Mitchell Jones}*** I am not >going to respond to your counteraccusations or arguments until I see that >you have first understood my original points. ***{And I am not going to "understand" (i.e., agree with) your original points unless you overturn the reasons upon which that supposed misunderstanding is based. --MJ}*** >Listen carefully please. This one is still a sticking point: > > "one of your arguments, although acceptable in other arenas, violates > both the rules and the central purpose of this forum." > >Note well that I do not say that your argument is inherently "wrong". > >The type of argument you used is only "wrong" when it appears on this >forum. Why? First, because I say so: because I've intentionally designed >it into the forum. Looking at anomalous evidence is the whole point to >Vortex-L. ***{Such a point, when coupled with a ban against using logic as a screening tool, is nonsense. Here are some of the reasons: (1) Nobody in this group, including you, looks at *all* evidence about *every* supposed scientific anomaly. (2) Everybody in this group, including me, looks at *some* of the evidence about *some* anomalies. (3) Everybody in the group, including you, applies logic to cull out implausible claims. We may not all use the same logic, but we all--each and every one of us--uses logic as a screening tool. The reason we do that is simple: we have no choice. We are finite beings living in a world of limited resources, and because of that, we cannot read everything, we cannot research everything we read, and we cannot perform experimental investigations of all the topics that we research. As a result of (1), (2), and (3), above, any alleged rule against using logic as a screening tool strikes me as balderdash, gobbledygook, nonsense on stilts, ridiculous, preposterous, ludicrous, etc. Do you understand what I am saying? Do you understand why you must address what I am saying in order to make progress in this discussion? --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 21:01:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01240; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:01:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:01:17 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001220225357.00abd5e0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:09:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: <3A417EF4.96F48ADD groupz.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zvC_h2.0.IJ.TwOGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:54 PM 12/20/00 -0500, you wrote: >A true scientist, would possible jump in and try to help you >replicate the device....one who really believes in science... >he would never do more then state, that he did not think it >would work...and give his reasons...he would realize that >in attempting to replicate, if nothing else, you might learn >something, that you, as an individual, had not known before.... > >The people you are talking about, should have another name... >not scientists...as soon as a person does this, scientist >should never be used to refer to them. > >Just a thought....steve opelc Although true scientists are usually buried by there own work :-) They will at least have helpful suggestions. There are many who take the name dishonorably. Let see a better name for these people... "Credentialists".... Then there are those who made it all the way through school and miraculously still have an open mind. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 20 21:41:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14866; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:40:06 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:45:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001220082741.00953a70 postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RV-Tn.0.8e3.rUPGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PTO= part of USPTO = United States Patent and Trademark Office > correct.......>>>>>> CF = Cold fusion, PF cells Pons and Fleishman cells Would you know anyone who has the time and energy to make a FAQ ..Frequently Asked Questions list ... and Acronym list Always Crazy Reasons Others Name Yayhoo Minomers > > > As to "Suppression" I have seen none. Only failure for the honest and > success has all ben error and fraud. I hope that we are both totally wrong. > > At 03:51 AM 12/20/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Based on what I've heard, this is just the latest example of the PTO's > >refusal to grant C F patents. > > > >Then there is the Piantelli patent which reports to produce both heat and > >helium 3. Additionally there the much maligned anomalous isotopic ratios > >in the used electrodes from P F cells. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 00:42:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31833; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:41:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:41:48 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:49:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? Resent-Message-ID: <"_t3gv.0.Jn7.B9SGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope this is not too far off topic, and is of interest or concern here, due to the recent discussions regarding Ebola. Kampala is the capital of Uganda, where an Ebola outbreak has been going on for some time in the northern region of the country. Ebola is thought to be contained in the northern part, despite the information that follows. Further, the moderator of the ProMED list feels that because the outbreak in the north is contained that the victim in the report is not likely to have Ebola. The population of Kampala is over 700,000, and it is connected by rail, air and boat. It is located on Lake Victoria, a principle source of the Nile River. The Ebola outbreak to the north is believed contained by the Ugandan government, so there are no restrictions on travel from Uganda for the Holidays. This report sounds like response, containment, and diagnosis are not happening with suffcient speed or effectiveness to control this outbreak which has been festering some months now. The report is vaguely reminiscent of a Three Stooges movie, and might even be funny if it weren't the most serious possible situation. There must be someting that can be done to improve the magnitude of the response to this kind of potential threat to world security. The following is from the ProMED list: Quote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Source: The Times of India Online, AFP Report, Wed 20 Dec 2000 [edited] Division of Responsibility Increases Risk in Kampala ---------------------------------------------------- KAMPALA: The corpse of an elderly man was left lying in Kampala's main taxi park for 2 days because of fear that he had died of Ebola hemorrhagic fever, police stated on Tue 19 Dec 2000. The man had been bleeding through the nose, eyes and mouth shortly before he collapsed and he died on the morning of Sun 17 Dec 2000, according to media reports. Such bleeding is one of the symptoms of the viral hemorrhagic disease. A truck had run over the body and other vehicles had driven around it. "We had agreed with Kampala City Council (KCC) that if any person is suspected to be showing signs of Ebola fever we should inform the task force as we have no protective gear," stated police spokesman Assuman Mugenyi. "If doctors can die, so can policemen. We informed KCC about the incident, but they kept quiet and told us to remove the body. But it was not our duty." The body was picked up eventually on Monday evening by a team hired by Kampala's Ebola Task Force. "I think they will be taking it now to test if the man died of Ebola fever or not," Mugenyi said. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end quote. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 05:18:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02204; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:15:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:15:35 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:15:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RKOWT1.0.JY.t9WGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: M. Jones wrote: > > ***{Water is probably the most thoroughly investigated substance known > > to man. That is totally incorrect. According to Felix Franks, who is one of the world's leading experts in water, "physicists claim a much better understanding of esoteric substances like liquid helium or liquid nitrogen than they have of liquid water." ("Polywater," p. 6) In the mid 1960s several chemists were studying it, "despite the view of most physicists that the problems were too difficult." Here are some basic questions about water which have not been answered. Why does it expand when it freezes, unlike most substances? Why does the boiling point not correlate with the molecule size? If it was like other molecules it would boil at about -93 deg C. Why is the specific heat so incredibly high compared other substances? With all other substances, the specific heat correlates with the size of the molecule; other molecules the size of H2O have much lower specific heat. Why is the specific heat of liquid water so much higher than solid water, when all other substances have much higher specific heat in the solid form? Franks concludes, "there is hardly a property of water that could be called normal" and he says that basic research into this substances has hardly begun. If Jones is such an expert, he can tell the world the answers to some of these questions. He will win the Nobel prize, so he should not hold back and hide his light under a bushel. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 06:20:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18584; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:17:47 -0800 Message-ID: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "j l sparber" Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:14:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06B1D.B9668060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FoG9_.0.IY4.A4XGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06B1D.B9668060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here you go Jed. Dr. Willard's water has been on the market for decades. Search Phrase " The Structure of Water " If Mssr. Jones thinks he "knows all about water", he's all wet. http://www.helpyourheart.com/biowater.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06B1D.B9668060 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="BIO WATERSUPtm-sup.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BIO WATERSUPtm-sup.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.helpyourheart.com/biowater.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.helpyourheart.com/biowater.html Modified=00C7EBF15F6BC0012E ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06B1D.B9668060-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 06:29:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20816; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:25:34 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01c06b61$e79252e0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "j l sparber" Subject: Hydrogen Bond Disorder in Ice Structures Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:22:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06B1E.D2975D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"UdmhR3.0.755.TBXGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06B1E.D2975D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good for the liver too. :-) http://mdp2.phys.ucl.ac.uk/Talks/Ice/Ice.html#2 FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06B1E.D2975D60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Hydrogen Bond Disorder in Ice Structures.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Hydrogen Bond Disorder in Ice Structures.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://mdp2.phys.ucl.ac.uk/Talks/Ice/Ice.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://mdp2.phys.ucl.ac.uk/Talks/Ice/Ice.html#2 Modified=A0FDD2B4616BC001B0 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06B1E.D2975D60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 06:38:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23537; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:35:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:35:34 -0800 Message-ID: <006601c06b63$4c1edfc0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Water clusters the evidence Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:32:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06B20.3777D6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"09yPB.0.Zl5.sKXGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06B20.3777D6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Go figure, Mister Jones. http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/evidnc.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06B20.3777D6A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Water clusters the evidence.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Water clusters the evidence.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/evidnc.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/evidnc.html Modified=803C601B636BC001C6 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C06B20.3777D6A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 06:39:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23255; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:34:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:34:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3A421822.6F3F4D31 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:48:02 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mail Delivery Subsystem , "Mailer-Daemon aapmr.org" , "POSTMASTER 212.4.12.130" , Vortex Subject: UNAUTORIZED USE OF PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRRESS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OIrzs3.0.Hh5.0KXGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: DECEMBER 21, 2000 "Postmasters", I have received many "return mail" or "undeliverable mail" notices from you people where I never sent them in the first place. The mail contents are some promo ads or some contents unrelated to anything I would use the e-mail for. Some are single addresses, some are multiple addresses. This method could be the means for surreptitiously sending virus loaded mail. Now these are only 'returned mail". Evidently there must be many more that has been delivered using my e-mail address without my knowledge or permission. Any suggestions or methods to put a stop to this? I still desire to keep my address. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 07:07:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02498; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:05:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:05:41 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221095455.00c2c178 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:05:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Water clusters the evidence In-Reply-To: <006601c06b63$4c1edfc0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WYSK.0.yc.5nXGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Go figure, Mister Jones. > > http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/evidnc.html > >FJS That is an interesting web page. The section "explanations of water anomalies" describes recent answers to some of the questions raised by Felix Franks, which I quoted. Perhaps research into water has advanced since Franks wrote the book. However, I read elsewhere that there is still no general agreement about important issues, so I guess Chaplin lists his own favorite theories, and there is still room for Jones to win the Nobel by settling these issues once and for all. Incidentally, the last item on Chaplin's anomaly list is the Mpemba effect. He thinks it is probably caused by different supercooling performance in "otherwise identical" samples (or the same sample used twice, as I have pointed out). Other web sites list this theory. So far, I have not seen a single expert who agrees with Jones that the effect is caused by contaminants, although of course that hypothesis was proposed early on. It was quickly eliminated. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 07:14:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04005; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:09:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:09:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4232AB.E1963A62 gte.net> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:41:20 -0500 From: Institute for Basic Research Reply-To: ibr gte.net Organization: Institute for Basic Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Experimental data on over-unity of hadronic reactors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c11uV3.0.R-.3rXGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Horace, Thanks for your question. It is an important one for all research in new energies which, as such, should be discussed. The position of our Institute is the following. We believe that energy simply cannot be created from nothing, i.e., energy must originate from some source to be credible and plausible. Therefore, we believe that the "scientific energy balance" is always smaller than one (under-unity), defined as the ratio between the total energy out and the TOTAL energy in. The under-unitty is then due to the usual uncontrollable losses. The only possible over-unity which is scientifically credible in my view (but, please, do let me know of opposite views proved by evidence) is what I have called "commercial energy balance", that is, the ratio between the total energy produced and ONLY the energy paid for. More specifically, to achieve credibility and acceptance by a wide audience, the above definition requires the very important joint identification of WHERE the excess energy originates. For the case of our hadronic reactors we have SCIENTIFIC ENERGY BALANCE = total energy out -------------------- = total energy in energy in gas + energy in heat --------------------------------------- < 1 electric energy + energy in molecules COMMERCIAL ENERGY BALANCE = total energy out -------------------- = electric energy in energy in gas + energy in heat --------------------------------------- >> 1 electric energy with COP of 3.3 for minimally operating hadronic reactors (low kWh, atmospheric pressure, and low liquid temp), with much bigger over-unities for more powerful reactors (because the efficiency improves nonlinearity with the features). Your interpretation that hadronic reactors are "burning" liquid is quite nice and essentially true. In fact, hadronic reactors were conceived and constructed to tap energy from molecular bonds, with the clear understanding, stressed by William Pound in his last message to vortex friends, that THE ORIGIN OF OUR OVER-UNITY IS STILL UNKNOWN SCIENTIFICALLY. A first point that should be of interest to vortex frien ds is that in alternative definitions over-unity is synonym of creation of energy, with consequential instant aneous loss of credibility. A second point of possible interest is that exactly the same definitions of scientific vs commercial over-unities apply to ALL over-unities with a solid scientific backgrounds because, again, the excess energy must come from somewhere. A third and final point of potential interest, also expressed by William Pound, is that the mechanism of over-unity of hadronic reactors are applicable to a considerable number of other cases (although evidently not to all). More specifically, they are applicable whenever the energy is obtained via effects which are nonlinear, and/or nonlocal, and/or nonpotential, thus being kilimetrically outside the old quantum mechanics. Thanks again for your interest and question. Happy holidays to all Ruggero Maria Santilli President Institute for Basic Research Scientific Advisor USMagnegas, EuroMagneGas, AsiaMagnegas http://www.i-b-r.org http://www.magnegas.com Horace Heffner wrote: > Are you now claiming you have obtained "Scientific Over-unity" in your > terms, vs "Commercial Over-unity", i.e. more total energy out than total > energy in? In other words, are you saying you are producing true free > energy, or are you simply obtaining energy by burning "free" trash in an > arc? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner -- ********************************* Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli President INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH Editor in Chief ALGEBRAS, GROUPS AND GEOMETRIES HADRONIC JOURNAL HADRONIC J. SUPPL. Editor INTERN. J. PHYSICS BALKAN J. of GEOMETRY and its APPLICATIONS __________________________________________ THE INSTITUTE FOR BASIC RESEARCH P. O. Box 1577 Palm Harbor, FL 34682, U. S. A. Tel. +1-727-934 9593, Fax +1-727-934 9275 E-address ibr gte.net Web sites http://www.i-b-r.org http://www.santillimagnegas.com _________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 07:29:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10801; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:26:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:26:21 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001221092234.0096f8d0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:27:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: UNAUTORIZED USE OF PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRRESS In-Reply-To: <3A421822.6F3F4D31 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wd2DR.0.he2.S4YGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Returned mail is a result of messages that you have sent. (even unknowingly) Check for the unwanted addresses in the header info before you send a reply. You may be able to determine the exact source of your problem (I hope it's not me) At 06:48 AM 12/21/00 -0800, you wrote: >DECEMBER 21, 2000 > >"Postmasters", > >I have received many "return mail" or "undeliverable mail" notices from >you people where I never sent them in the first place. > >The mail contents are some promo ads or some contents unrelated to >anything I would use the e-mail for. Some are single addresses, some are >multiple addresses. This method could be the means for surreptitiously >sending virus loaded mail. > >Now these are only 'returned mail". Evidently there must be many more >that has been delivered using my e-mail address without my knowledge or >permission. > >Any suggestions or methods to put a stop to this? I still desire to keep >my address. > >Sincerely, >Akira Kawasaki _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:07:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24269; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:03:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:03:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221092454.0382c560 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:01:31 -0600 To: ibr gte.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Experimental data on over-unity of hadronic reactors In-Reply-To: <3A4232AB.E1963A62 gte.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ramuA.0.6x5.0dYGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 AM 12/21/00 -0500, Institute for Basic Research wrote: >The only possible over-unity which is scientifically credible in my view >(but, please, do let me know of opposite views proved by evidence) is what >I have called "commercial energy balance", that is, the ratio between the >total energy produced and ONLY the energy paid for. I doubt if anyone on this forum disagrees with this position. The kind of o-u device I fantasize about obtains its excess energy from some supply that we presently don't know how to tap (e.g. zero-point field energy, low-temp nuclear reactions, etc.) >Your interpretation that hadronic reactors are "burning" liquid is quite >nice and essentially true. In fact, hadronic reactors were conceived and >constructed to tap energy from molecular bonds...., with the clear >understanding, stressed by William Pound in his last message to vortex >friends, that THE ORIGIN OF OUR OVER-UNITY IS STILL UNKNOWN SCIENTIFICALLY. The numbers from that post are incomplete. Would you be willing to provide us with the necessary data to evaluate the energy balance in one "run" of your device? I'd like to see at least the following: 1. Total kwh (i.e. joules) of electrical energy consumed 2. Total volume of gas produced 3. Measured caloric value of gas produced 4. weight, composition (including measured caloric value), and temperature of starting liquid 5. weight, composition (including measured caloric value), and temperature of residual liquid at the end of the run. Presumably, these numbers will all "add up"...i.e. they will show that the energy available in the gas produced by your reactor was extracted from the the liquid + electricity that the reactor consumed. As you correctly said, the energy has to come from somewhere. If that is indeed the case, then please tell us what is the advantage of your reactor over more conventional devices, such as the internal combustion engine, which also convert chemical potential energy into useful work. If you believe that the fuel for your reactor is essentially free, then I urge you to consider the fact that oil and coal were also essentially free...until everybody started wanting them for energy. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 08:35:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02296; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:31:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:31:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221100616.03bd7d50 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:30:03 -0600 To: hydrino egroups.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <91p3n2+a4nk eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"KalaJ2.0.oZ.e1ZGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:57 AM 12/20/00 +0000, Dan Galburt wrote (on the hydrino egroup): >I have just read your read your new report on flow measurements. I >think the apparent low flow for a vertical manometer is due to >compression of the volume of gas in the calorimeter as the manometer >is displaced... Go to the head of the class, Dan Galburt! Thanks to your post, we quit assuming what would happen in this flowmeter and worked it out analytically....and you're right! Even when the U-tube is arranged to "suck" on the cell, every dx of movement of the liquid in the tube results in an INCREASE in the overall cell pressure...and increase which is NOT negligible, especially since we have a rather large head space volume in this cell (~200 cm^3). I have just arranged a 3rd method of measuring the rate of gas production inside the cell. I briefly (~20 seconds) close off the cell with a sensitive pressure gauge (an instrumented silicon diaphragm) and measure the time required for the cell pressure to increase a very small amount (~4E-5 atmospheres). The sensor can read this tiny pressure easily with 1% precision! The results of this delta-p method agree very well with the results obtained with the open-ended horizontal tube with moving liquid piston. Now we should be able to properly evaluate the results of our latest runs with the Mills cell. I would like to convey my sincere thanks to everyone who made suggestions for this problem. BTW, the glass tubing is 4 mm OD...not 4 mm ID. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 09:01:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14581; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:57:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:58:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? Resent-Message-ID: <"OjRAa2.0.kZ3.NQZGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I hope this is not too far off topic, and is of interest or concern here, >due to the recent discussions regarding Ebola. > >Kampala is the capital of Uganda, where an Ebola outbreak has been going on >for some time in the northern region of the country. Ebola is thought to >be contained in the northern part, despite the information that follows. >Further, the moderator of the ProMED list feels that because the outbreak >in the north is contained that the victim in the report is not likely to >have Ebola. > >The population of Kampala is over 700,000, and it is connected by rail, air >and boat. It is located on Lake Victoria, a principle source of the Nile >River. The Ebola outbreak to the north is believed contained by the >Ugandan government, so there are no restrictions on travel from Uganda for >the Holidays. > >This report sounds like response, containment, and diagnosis are not >happening with suffcient speed or effectiveness to control this outbreak >which has been festering some months now. The report is vaguely >reminiscent of a Three Stooges movie, and might even be funny if it weren't >the most serious possible situation. There must be someting that can be >done to improve the magnitude of the response to this kind of potential >threat to world security. > > >The following is from the ProMED list: > >Quote: >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - >Source: The Times of India Online, AFP Report, Wed 20 Dec 2000 [edited] > > > >Division of Responsibility Increases Risk in Kampala >---------------------------------------------------- >KAMPALA: The corpse of an elderly man was left lying in Kampala's main taxi >park for 2 days because of fear that he had died of Ebola hemorrhagic >fever, police stated on Tue 19 Dec 2000. The man had been bleeding through >the nose, eyes and mouth shortly before he collapsed and he died on the >morning of Sun 17 Dec 2000, according to media reports. Such bleeding is >one of the symptoms of the viral hemorrhagic disease. A truck had run over >the body and other vehicles had driven around it. > >"We had agreed with Kampala City Council (KCC) that if any person is >suspected to be showing signs of Ebola fever we should inform the task >force as we have no protective gear," stated police spokesman Assuman >Mugenyi. "If doctors can die, so can policemen. We informed KCC about the >incident, but they kept quiet and told us to remove the body. But it was >not our duty." The body was picked up eventually on Monday evening by a >team hired by Kampala's Ebola Task Force. "I think they will be taking it >now to test if the man died of Ebola fever or not," Mugenyi said. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - >end quote. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ***{That's a very frightening quote, Horace. The earlier outbreaks were in small and isolated villages, and the external medical response was large and effective, due to the isolated circumstances, and prevented the human-adapted pathogen from getting a foothold in the general population. However, as you noted, the disease is now in a much more densely populated area, where containment is virtually impossible even if the required personnel work effectively as a team to achieve that goal. And, as the article makes crystal clear, *fear* is now taking hold, disrupting the teamwork that is essential to successful containment. Result: the worst-case, nightmare scenario--a worldwide pandemic by a pathogen with a very high transmissibility and a virulence of roughly 80%--is rapidly becoming a realistic possibility. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 09:01:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14629; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:58:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:57:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: gigantic messages Resent-Message-ID: <"gkhYV1.0.Va3.WQZGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> And, by the way, the above insight sheds light on your earlier claim >> that certainty equates to closemindedness: that equation is valid for >> you, because you lapse into silence when you encounter criticisms that >> you cannot refute--as you have done in this post, by snipping out the >> entire context of the lengthy message to which you are ostensibly >> replying. > >Again you are attributing my actions to extremely negative motivations on >my part. I wish you'd cut it out, it's really irritating. ***{If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen--which means: you started a discussion that focused on character flaws that *I* supposedly possessed, and now you are complaining that the focus has shifted to supposed flaws that *you* possess. The question is, what did you expect? As I have said repeatedly, I don't *like* discussions that focus on the supposed negative personal traits of the participants, because they tend to turn into useless flame wars. That's why I have tried repeatedly to shift this discussion to substantive matters--specifically: to an abstract discussion of the appropriateness of your attempt to ban the use of logic as a screening tool. However, you have thus far utterly ignored those attempts, choosing instead to snip them out and pound away at the notion that I don't understand what you are saying. Well, here is a flash for you: I understand what you are saying, and believe it to be not merely wrong, but absurd. Result: continued attempts to beat me into submission by simply rewording, over and over again, your original position, are an utter waste of time. One more time: I am not resisting your point because I do not understand it, but for the extensive reasons that I have stated and you have ignored. --Mitchell Jones}*** >When I snip out big chunks of messages, is it always because I am refusing >to answer those sections? No. Right now I am snipping out huge sections >intentionally to avoid what has happened between us time after time on >vortex: a 1K message leads to a 5K reply, which leads to 12K, then 30K, >etc., messages. ***{You didn't "snip out big chunks of messages," you snipped out *all* of the messages. Thus you cannot justify your actual behavior by the reasons you have given. Yes, of course, point-by-point rebuttals can lead to larger and larger messages, and so snipping out some sections is necessary. However, to avoid the appearance of intellectual dishonesty, such deletions ought to be confined to material that is not directly contextual to the responses one is giving. In other words, you should *never* chop out the specific sentences to which your response applies. Granted, it is a judgment call as to how many sentences must be copied to capture the context to which you are responding, and sometimes you may snip out too much. But if that happens, the material that you *did* copy will enable your opponent to recognize which of his statements you are attacking, and if he thinks you snipped out too much, he can then restore those missing statements and explain why they are important. Bottom line: it ought to be a personal rule of procedure to always quote enough context to permit your opponent to determine what you are responding to. When you fail to do that, rightly or wrongly, it smacks of evasion. --Mitchell Jones}*** >If you want me to respond to particular important sections, then I have a >BIG problem because I don't know which ones are important to you, or which >ones could be snipped without much effect. ***{You get to decide which portions of my message to respond to, just as I get to decide which portions of your message to respond to. If I think you ignored something important, I will very pointedly bring it up again, and I expect you to do likewise. That, however, does not justify your practice of dropping the entire context of the message to which you are responding. When you give a response, you should *always* quote enough of the material so that the person you are talking to can identify the specific section to which you are replying. Concerning point-by-point rebuttals: the person giving the response gets to decide which points are important enough to merit a response, and he should try to delete irrelevant intervening material. However, he should never delete *all* of the material to which he is responding, as you have been doing. --Mitchell Jones}*** The same has happened to me as >well: I've seen you not answering direct questions which I judged to be >extremely important. ***{Then you should pointedly bring them up again. Be aware, however, that when such events occur, they mean the two people disagree about what is important, relevant, interesting, appropriate, etc. Result: the discussion may then turn into a debate about standards for determining what is and is not important, relevant, interesting, appropriate, etc. Just because you want a datum of information does not necessarily mean your opponent is going to immediately supply it when you bring it up again. And, of course, you behave that way yourself: there are lots of lines of discussion that you consider to be unimportant, irrelevant, uninteresting, inappropriate, etc., and, because of that, you frequently insist that an opponent justify his question before you will answer it. Indeed, that is exactly what you are doing right now: you are forcing me to justify my demand that you retain enough of the context so I can determine what you are responding to. --MJ}*** But I don't know why you did this, and I'd be foolish >to assume it was to avoid losing the big competitive debate. ***{You would indeed. And you would also be foolish to assume that, just because I responded to your pejorative speculations about me by speculating pejoratively about you, that I am firmly committed to believing those speculations. (And, hopefully, you are not firmly committed to believing that I am an arrogant, closeminded, pathological skeptic who is unshakeable in his beliefs.) --MJ}*** >> Such an equation is, however, not valid for me, because my norm is to >> respond point-by-point to every argument that is thrown my way. > >Same for me. That's why we get this size-doubling progression which >invariably ends up in kilobyte-choked silence. ***{Not invariably. It is possible to deal with the problem by deleting unneeded material. Deleting *all* of the material, however, is massive overkill, and renders it impossible for either party to follow the thread of the argument. --MJ}*** If you send two 40K >messages as a reply, should my response be three 40K messages? If it is >not, will you become convinced that I conveniently respond only to the >parts I think are important? ***{I don't object to the fact that you use your judgment in deciding what to respond to. I object to the fact that, by deleting *all* of the context, you are losing track of what is being discussed, wandering off into the woods, and leaving me utterly confused about what you are trying to say. A dialogue is not merely an exchange of messages: it is an exchange of *responses*. And it is an essential discipline, if the messages are to be responsive, that enough of the context of the preceding message be retained to keep both participants focused on the same thing. --MJ}*** >This is a continuing problem. How to solve it? Maybe I could always >read your messages, but only respond to the first 5K of all messages. >Or can we agree to edit our responses down below a certain size, say 5K or >10K? ***{No. Just retain enough of the context to keep yourself on track and to enable me to know what you are talking about, that's all. This is not as complicated a problem as you are making it out to be. By the way, there have been times in the past when I have avoided all deletions, and have permitted my messages to become too large. That is a habit I carried over from sci.physics.fusion, where it served a purpose: if I saved only my message and deleted nothing from the message to which I was responding, it became possible to reconstruct the whole dialogue from my messages alone. However, in a list server group, I receive both messages automatically, and so there is no reason for me to avoid deletions. That is something I need to focus on. However, to repeat: you are going overboard in the opposite direction. Deleting *everything* is just as inappropriate and counterproductive as deleting nothing. --Mitchell Jones}*** >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 09:31:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26912; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:26:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:26:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4239C3.B9B86A74 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:11:31 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr><5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0@pop.mindspring.com> <001901c06150$08c881d0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zzvU93.0.Fa6.-qZGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitch, Due a disk failure (some parts incrediblly broken inside), last week data is lost in my computer. I had prepared a reply to you but gone now. For short, you may read my reply to Jones Beene, and some postings on RF power meters for clarification of issues you asked. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 11:01:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32721; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:54:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:54:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221100616.03bd7d50 earthtech.org> References: <91p3n2+a4nk eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:52:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Resent-Message-ID: <"Pzwez3.0.B_7.x7bGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:57 AM 12/20/00 +0000, Dan Galburt wrote (on the hydrino egroup): > >>I have just read your read your new report on flow measurements. I >>think the apparent low flow for a vertical manometer is due to >>compression of the volume of gas in the calorimeter as the manometer >>is displaced... > >Go to the head of the class, Dan Galburt! > >Thanks to your post, we quit assuming what would happen in this flowmeter >and worked it out analytically....and you're right! Even when the U-tube >is arranged to "suck" on the cell, every dx of movement of the liquid in >the tube results in an INCREASE in the overall cell pressure ***{As you may be aware, the above statement only applies when part of the plug is in the descending portion of the U-tube and part is in the ascending portion. It does not apply if the size of the liquid plug is constant and all of the plug is in the descending or the ascending portion of the tube. In the case where all of the plug is in the descending portion of the tube, the downward pointing vector sum of gravitational force and frictional resistance to movement will be constant--which means: the upward pointing pressure difference (and the pressure in the cell) necessary to stop the downward movement will also be constant. Next, as part of the plug begins to turn the corner at the bottom of the U-tube and rise upward, the net downward pulling force will begin to decrease, and, when enough of an excess is in the ascending half of the U-tube to balance the frictional resistance, the net pulling force will go to zero. Then, as the plug moves past that point, a net force pushing back toward the cell will ensue, and it will increase until *all* of the plug has turned the corner and has begun to move up the ascending side of the U-tube. Since the force necessary to move the plug along increases throughout this interval, the pressure in the cell must also increase. Finally, after all of the plug is in the ascending portion of the tube, vector sum of gravitational force and frictional resistance will once again be constant, though in this case it will push back toward the cell rather than pull away from it. Result: the pressure required to nudge the plug along will once again be constant. To sum up: (a) the pressure in the cell that is required to nudge the plug along will be less than 1 atm, and constant, as long as the entire plug is in the descending portion of the U-tube; (b) the pressure in the cell that is required to nudge the plug along will increase throughout the interval when part of the plug is in the descending and part is in the ascending portion of the tube; (c) when the entire plug is in the ascending portion of the tube, the pressure required to nudge it along will once again be constant, though in this case it will be greater than 1 atm. Agreed? --Mitchell Jones}*** ...an increase >which is NOT negligible, especially since we have a rather large head space >volume in this cell (~200 cm^3). > >I have just arranged a 3rd method of measuring the rate of gas production >inside the cell. I briefly (~20 seconds) close off the cell with a >sensitive pressure gauge (an instrumented silicon diaphragm) and measure >the time required for the cell pressure to increase a very small amount >(~4E-5 atmospheres). The sensor can read this tiny pressure easily with 1% >precision! > >The results of this delta-p method agree very well with the results >obtained with the open-ended horizontal tube with moving liquid piston. > >Now we should be able to properly evaluate the results of our latest runs >with the Mills cell. ***{Yes, and since the measurements taken in the horizontal tube proved to be the best indicators of gas flow, the fact that they also gave the highest rate of flow is grounds for hoping that the cell may be over unity! Perhaps you have at last found what you have been seeking! --MJ}*** > >I would like to convey my sincere thanks to everyone who made suggestions >for this problem. BTW, the glass tubing is 4 mm OD...not 4 mm ID. > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 11:29:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11621; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:21:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:21:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4239C3.B9B86A74 verisoft.com.tr> References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr><5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop .mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> <001901c06150$08c881d0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:19:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations Resent-Message-ID: <"4k8St3.0.Tr2.IXbGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Mitch, > >Due a disk failure (some parts incrediblly broken inside), last week data >is lost in my computer. I had prepared a reply to you but gone now. ***{I think I have all the vortex messages from last week. If you will tell me the date, time, and subject of the last message you have, and of the first message you received after you got your system running again, I will be happy to send the missing messages to you via private e-mail. --MJ}*** >For short, you may read my reply to Jones Beene, and some postings on RF >power meters for clarification of issues you asked. > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar ***{I will be happy to send you another copy of my message, if you would like to take another shot at it. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 12:07:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24682; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:59:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4260C8.8F99B441 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:58:00 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Causes of non sustaining overunity operations References: <3A2D9322.79E6D303 verisoft.com.tr><5.0.0.25.2.20001207102737.02ba2d00@pop .mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001207185245.02ca1ba0 pop.mindspring.com> <001901c06150$08c881d0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TcJqT1.0.Z16.I4cGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you, I can also retrieve them from escribe archive. I will try to reply you, but I think I said all my arguments already. I think the main point on this discussion is the difference between experimenting by self versus thinking on other's experiment. When one thinks, do assumptions. One can fall in mistake by assumptions easily. This specially true on experiments seeking unexpecting results. Regards, hamdi ucar Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Hi Mitch, > > > >Due a disk failure (some parts incrediblly broken inside), last week data > >is lost in my computer. I had prepared a reply to you but gone now. > > ***{I think I have all the vortex messages from last week. If you will tell > me the date, time, and subject of the last message you have, and of the > first message you received after you got your system running again, I will > be happy to send the missing messages to you via private e-mail. --MJ}*** > > >For short, you may read my reply to Jones Beene, and some postings on RF > >power meters for clarification of issues you asked. > > > >Regards, > > > >hamdi ucar > > ***{I will be happy to send you another copy of my message, if you would > like to take another shot at it. --MJ}*** > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety > than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 12:13:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26169; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:02:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:02:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221135152.03bf3980 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:01:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221100616.03bd7d50 earthtech.org> <91p3n2+a4nk eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Xq8ay2.0.hO6.j7cGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:52 PM 12/21/00 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >To sum up: (a) the pressure in the cell that is required to nudge the plug >along will be less than 1 atm, and constant, as long as the entire plug is >in the descending portion of the U-tube; (b) the pressure in the cell that >is required to nudge the plug along will increase throughout the interval >when part of the plug is in the descending and part is in the ascending >portion of the tube; (c) when the entire plug is in the ascending portion >of the tube, the pressure required to nudge it along will once again be >constant, though in this case it will be greater than 1 atm. > >Agreed? Agreed. BTW, we never operated the U-tube with all the liquid on one side. ***{Yes, and since the measurements taken in the horizontal tube proved to >be the best indicators of gas flow, the fact that they also gave the >highest rate of flow is grounds for hoping that the cell may be over unity! >Perhaps you have at last found what you have been seeking! --MJ}*** That could be the case...but there are several things that need to be double-checked before we can be sure. I'm not very comfortable with this style of calorimetry yet, for example. I will report what I observe. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:15:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21634; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:08:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:08:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221135152.03bf3980 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221100616.03bd7d50 earthtech.org> <91p3n2+a4nk eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:06:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Resent-Message-ID: <"DjZE91.0.rH5.45dGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >***{Yes, and since the measurements taken in the horizontal tube proved to >>be the best indicators of gas flow, the fact that they also gave the >>highest rate of flow is grounds for hoping that the cell may be over unity! >>Perhaps you have at last found what you have been seeking! --MJ}*** > >That could be the case...but there are several things that need to be >double-checked before we can be sure. I'm not very comfortable with this >style of calorimetry yet, for example. > >I will report what I observe. ***{And quickly, I hope. Judging from my own reaction, I suspect that you have everybody here on the edges of their seats. BTW, please don't feel that you must refrain from posting tentative numbers if they are OU. We all understand that posting tentative results is for discussion only, and does *not* constitute an endorsement. We aren't going to conclude that Scott Little believes in "cold fusion" or "hydrinos" until Scott Little actually says so. (Of course, I can't speak for Jed. :-) --MJ}*** >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:19:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21577; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:08:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:08:13 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:16:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? Resent-Message-ID: <"dK0G81.0.-G5.y4dGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:58 AM 12/21/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >***{That's a very frightening quote, Horace. The earlier outbreaks were in >small and isolated villages, and the external medical response was large >and effective, due to the isolated circumstances, and prevented the >human-adapted pathogen from getting a foothold in the general population. >However, as you noted, the disease is now in a much more densely populated >area, where containment is virtually impossible even if the required >personnel work effectively as a team to achieve that goal. And, as the >article makes crystal clear, *fear* is now taking hold, disrupting the >teamwork that is essential to successful containment. Part of the problem is that this case is not confirmed as, or even believed likely to be, ebola. It superficially appears that gridlock occurs due to a combination of fear in local officials confronted with hemorrhagic syndrome victims plus a lack of response or at least lack of capability of response from WHO teams. It appears to me, a distant outsider and layman, that health professionals who deal with outbreaks see, for years, daily reports of potential outbreaks of many things and thus are hardened to the risk. No one wants to be unprofessional and yell "fire" in a crowded theater, so to speak. It appears that no major response is mounted until CONFIRMATION of the specific desease is at hand. The ebola outbreak in Uganda remained unconfirmed from mid September until mid August. However, the question also arises as to how major of a response CAN be mounted in a worst case scenario. Perhaps things are already getting maxed out. WHO teams have recently taken over for locals in Uganda. Local panic or civil disruption did happen in some Ugandan towns also. The life of the head of a local hospital was threatened by locals for bringing ebola cases to that town's hospital from another town. This happened after some of the local health care workers died I think. >Result: the >worst-case, nightmare scenario--a worldwide pandemic by a pathogen with a >very high transmissibility and a virulence of roughly 80%--is rapidly >becoming a realistic possibility. --MJ}*** So far in Uganda 437 cases have been confirmed, with only 164 deaths, giving about a 37 percent mortality rate for this specific outbreak. However, the health care rendered was signicant, and claimed more than 10 health care workers. Mortality would be much worse in a pandemic because the health care system would be overwhelmed. BTW, there were recently a couple deaths from hemorrhagic syndrome in Veraguas Panama, but that appears to be leptospirosis, which has appeared from time to time recently in Central America. These are being checked for being ebola, but again, that takes a considerable time. I don't know anything about leptospirosis, how it compares to ebola, but it clearly is lethal. These two cases appear to warrant the low profile afforded them, while the situation in Uganda appears to me to warrant a significant visible response, at least from the USA, in the form of equipment, and maybe personnel. It concerns me that possibly we are seeing in the health care profession a syndrome similar to that which caused the LENR conference to be booted off Texas A&M campus by unanimous vote of the Chemistry department. Is it possible that political correctness, social conformity, has invaded the medical profession as thoroughly as the pure physical sciences? However, in this case, the result is inaction vs action? As an outsider I simply don't know. It does concern me that the ebola problem will be met with a response as ineffective as that which met AIDS, a desease than might have been contained with swift and extreme action. If the helth profession is somehow sociologically impaired in performing its function, then only action from outside the profession is likely to improve the response. Discussion via the internet, and especially by professionals in other fields, seems likely the best way to examine this possible problem - if it is not too late to do so. This problem appears to rapidly becoming OUR problem in that we all can be affected in the extreme. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:33:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28603; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:27:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:27:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:35:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Resent-Message-ID: <"j45-n1.0.m-6.tMdGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Your new "dual" method of gas flow measurement, i.e. horizontal tube and pressure increase method, sounds really good. However, if you dispense with the horizontal tube, you will have to correct the delta volume (calculated from delta pressure) for both temperature changes in the cell and for water consumption in the cell, since water consumption increases the cell gas volume. Something bothering me about all this is that the errors due to the pressure head in the volume prior to the flow measuring meter should dwindle with time. In the long runs you make, a working pressure should be reached and the flow meter should start working correctly - ignoring the small change in volume due to the increased pressure of the flowing gas being measured. The total volume in your very long runs, as measured by your old methods, should not be off by a proportion, but by a fixed volume - that volume being the amount of gas required to raise the pressure of the gas volume in the cell. Dan Galburt wrote: "I think the apparent low flow for a vertical manometer is due to compression of the volume of gas in the calorimeter as the manometer is displaced. For instance, if a water filled vertical manometer with a 0.04 cc/cm volume per unit length changes height 1 cm, the pressure in the calorimeter rises about (1 cm) / (360 inches- water /atmosphere x 2.54 cm/inch) = 0.00109 atmospheres. This would result in the gas volume shrinking 250cc x 0.00109 = 0.273 cc. Therefore approximately .273 / 0.04 = 7 times as much gas must be generated for the manometer to rise 1 cm. I think this explains your problem. With mercury this effect would be 13X worse as you have observed. For a horizontal tube you would get an accurate reading." Now, that 0.273 cc is a FIXED volume. It should have no additional effect on a very long run. That voulume could be accounted for on a ONE TIME BASIS by measuring the pressure of the cell gas at the end of the run, and determining the cell volume and temperture at the end of the run. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 13:54:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02712; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:42:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:42:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:41:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA02663 Resent-Message-ID: <"8eV6e3.0.Gg.oadGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:15:33 -0500: [snip] I was under the impression that most of the following questions had actually been answered long ago. AFAIK the answers are as supplied below. >That is totally incorrect. According to Felix Franks, who is one of the >world's leading experts in water, "physicists claim a much better >understanding of esoteric substances like liquid helium or liquid nitrogen >than they have of liquid water." ("Polywater," p. 6) In the mid 1960s >several chemists were studying it, "despite the view of most physicists >that the problems were too difficult." > >Here are some basic questions about water which have not been answered. >Why does it expand when it freezes, unlike most substances? Because when it freezes complete cage structures form and remain intact, while in the liquid only partial cages exist on average, and the end of a partial cage will fit inside the "hollow part" of another partial cage, leading to an overall denser packing. >Why does the >boiling point not correlate with the molecule size? >If it was like other >molecules it would boil at about -93 deg C. Because water molecules are polar, and the resulting hydrogen bonds require energy to break. >Why is the specific heat so >incredibly high compared other substances? >With all other substances, the >specific heat correlates with the size of the molecule; other molecules the >size of H2O have much lower specific heat. Same answer as above. Breaking hydrogen bonds, and separating dipoles costs energy. >Why is the specific heat of >liquid water so much higher than solid water, when all other substances >have much higher specific heat in the solid form? Because when liquid water is heated, energy goes into separating dipoles, breaking hydrogen bonds, and rotational degrees of freedom, while in the solid the hydrogen bonds remain intact, and hence no energy is required to break them. Instead energy goes into increasing vibrational modes only, as all rotational degrees of freedom are lost due to the "frozen" hydrogen bond locked structure. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 14:37:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22184; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:29:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:29:19 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221164850.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:18:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kxsfG3.0.TQ5._GeGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:15:33 -0500: >[snip] >I was under the impression that most of the following questions had actually >been answered long ago. AFAIK the answers are as supplied below. Perhaps I misunderstood Franks, and those are not the open issues. Or perhaps some of the answers were found after the book was published in 1981. In any case, his point is that water is extremely complex and very unusual, and that there are a many important open questions about it. Other substances we consider exotic are much better understood. That is why many serious researchers took reports of polywater seriously, and spent a lot of time and money pursuing them. The only way to determine whether polywater was real or not was to perform experiments, and the issue is not fully settled even today. I am a strict empiricist. I belive that Jones is wrong, and logic alone can never tell us whether a phenomenon is real or not. Logic is the weakest guide to the future. Most important discoveries are counterintuitive and seem illogical at first. No method of understanding nature works well, and most of what we think we know is wrong. Listed from the weakest to strongest, we can employ logic, common sense, experience, or experiments . . . but it's a loser's game no matter how you play it. The idea that we can predict the result of any experiment a priori, without performing it, flies in the face of the last 400 years of history. Jones would drag us back to the Medieval mindset, to the time before Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton first brought light and knowledge to mankind. ALL knowledge comes from experiment -- there can be no other source. No assertion about the real world can ever be proved true or false except by experiment. (Assertions about logic or mathematics can be proved by thought alone, but this is actually an experiment, performed with a naturally occurring computer made of gray matter in your head, which happens to be an unreliable and trouble-prone instrument.) Furthermore, all confident assertions of causality are really only guesses based on repeated observations, as David Hume pointed out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 14:45:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27518; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:39:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: <010d01c06ba6$f6121fe0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:36:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C06B63.D787A7E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"qwoq91.0.pj6.uQeGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C06B63.D787A7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was a patent I got to exploit the temperature/density properties of water and ice, with heat pipe technology. http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US03943889__ I made dozens of these out of 20 pound propane tanks using a small amount of propane or a non-toxic freon. For overall safety, CO2 was the best choice. The ballast that allowed the tanks to float so that the "crown" broke the surface so that it formed a hole in the ice was the biggest challenge. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C06B63.D787A7E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Heat distributing tanks for retarding surface freezing (US3943889).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Heat distributing tanks for retarding surface freezing (US3943889).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.delphion.com/details?pn=3DUS03943889__ [DOC#6] BASEURL=3Dhttp://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/patents.ibm.com/chemical;sz=3D468= x60;cat=3Dresearch;ord=3D9662780? [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.delphion.com/details?pn=3DUS03943889__ Modified=3DC041FEA0A46BC0016F ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C06B63.D787A7E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 17:57:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04612; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:54:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:54:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> References: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:54:09 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"rW3U33.0.z71.CHhGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - While on the topic - we've all heard about magnet treated water, and I'm sure a few people on this list are using magnets on their water lines. But I always thought it would be one of those things that's too subtle to really know for sure, so I never bothered. Then on a whim the other day, I poured a glass of water from the kitchen sink, clipped a powerful pair of magnets onto the brass faucet, and poured another glass for a taste test. Night and day. Not subtle at all. The normal sample had the slight bitter aftertaste that I'm used to. The 'magnet' sample was very smooth tasting, totally different. And again - I won't even consider that the difference was psychological or needed a blind test. You who read this here cannot properly accept that last statement - you'd want blind tests for empirical verification. But I now have it first hand. The magnets are now taped to the faucet. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 18:33:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17325; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:31:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:31:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221095455.00c2c178 pop.mindspring.com> References: <006601c06b63$4c1edfc0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:29:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Water clusters the evidence Resent-Message-ID: <"YH1Er1.0.dE4.qphGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >Incidentally, the last item on Chaplin's anomaly list is the Mpemba effect. >He thinks it is probably caused by different supercooling performance in >"otherwise identical" samples (or the same sample used twice, as I have >pointed out). Other web sites list this theory. So far, I have not seen a >single expert who agrees with Jones that the effect is caused by >contaminants ***{This is not addressed to Jed, but to others: I never said the effect had to be due to contaminants. What I said was that whenever hot water freezes faster than cold, it is because the samples differ in more ways than temperature. For example, if the lower temperature sample is stored in a goblet, and the higher temperature sample is stored on the surface of a large, flat sheet of glass, the higher temperature sample has a vastly greater area exposed to the air, and may freeze faster than the lower temperature sample. In this case, "other things" are not equal, but the differences have to do with the exposed surface areas of the samples, not with contamination. Moreover, there are lots of other cases where there is no contamination, and yet "other things" are still unequal. For a second example, suppose both samples are stored in identical goblets, but the lower temperature sample has a laser beam passing through it, while the higher temperature sample does not. Result: the higher temperature sample may freeze before the lower temperature sample, and yet, once again, the differences have nothing to do with contamination. Bottom line: you can't trust Jed's statements about what his opponents think, and, as a result, you cannot trust his judgments about his opponents' opinions. That means you should insist that he provide you with a direct quote from the person he is criticizing, or else you should take everything he says with a gigantic boulder of salt. --Mitchell Jones}*** , although of course that hypothesis was proposed early on. It >was quickly eliminated. > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 18:35:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17288; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:31:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:31:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> References: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:25:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! Resent-Message-ID: <"Upw5i3.0.2E4.kphGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >M. Jones wrote: > >> > ***{Water is probably the most thoroughly investigated substance known >> > to man. Jed Rothwell wrote: >That is totally incorrect. [snip] >If Jones is such an expert, he can tell the world the answers to some of >these questions. He will win the Nobel prize, so he should not hold back >and hide his light under a bushel. > >- Jed ***{For the record, I never claimed to be an expert on water. What I claimed was that I have spent a vast amount of time over the years reading about or doing experiments that involved water, or discussing such experiments, with the result that I feel *extremely* confident in asserting that water is not a mixture containing substances unknown to science. Result: I regard as absurd the notion that, other things equal, warm water can freeze faster than cold. One need not be an expert on water--whatever that is--to know enough to confidently discount the existence of "polywater." --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 19:32:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03174; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:29:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:29:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221135152.03bf3980 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001221100616.03bd7d50 earthtech.org> <91p3n2+a4nk eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:28:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Resent-Message-ID: <"QMieu1.0.Fn.SgiGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >>Perhaps you have at last found what you have been seeking! --MJ}*** > >That could be the case...but there are several things that need to be >double-checked before we can be sure. I'm not very comfortable with this style of calorimetry yet, for example. ***{I see lots of problems with it myself. For example, since you may be loading lots of hydrogen into your cathode, I don't think you can safely assume that the hydrogen and oxygen in your gas output is in a 2 to 1 ratio by volume. Hydrogen loading will cause the proportion of oxygen in your off-gases to increase, and to do accurate calculations of energy output, you will have to measure the amount of unpaired oxygen. That means you need an external recombiner in your setup. Thus I suggest that you check out Ed Storm's gas measurement apparatus, as diagramed at http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/fig1rev7.html. Still, difficulties remain. I would, for example, want to measure the water produced at the recombiner, rather than letting it drip back into the cell, as Ed's design apparently does. However, that just opens another can of worms: how do you tell how much of the result is condensed water vapor from the cell, and how much is recombined H2O? Bottom line: the more I think about this design, the more problems I see. Maybe they can be solved, and maybe not. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 20:06:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12137; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:03:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3A42D306.FB902834 gorge.net> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:05:26 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qvugr.0.Zz2.DAjGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch wrote: > As I have said repeatedly, I don't *like* discussions that focus on > the > supposed negative personal traits of the participants, because they > tend to > turn into useless flame wars. I heartily agree. > That's why I have tried repeatedly to > shift > this discussion to substantive matters--specifically: to an abstract > discussion of the appropriateness of your attempt to ban the use of > logic > as a screening tool. I am surprised to learn that BillB has attempted to "ban the use of logic..." I must have missed that post. Could you point it out to me? Incidentally, the battle between experiment, and logic, as being the best revealer of reality, has gone on for two millennia. I thought that the scientific community had reached the consensus that BOTH were essential. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 21 20:12:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13460; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:07:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:07:38 -0800 Message-ID: <001701c06bd4$c11b3b40$9a8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:04:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FiuIR1.0.9I3.AEjGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed The Great Conejo will be pleased, Rick. :-) > Gnorts - > > While on the topic - we've all heard about magnet treated water, and > I'm sure a few people on this list are using magnets on their water > lines. But I always thought it would be one of those things that's > too subtle to really know for sure, so I never bothered. In the early 80s these were being pushed for treating commercial boiler (100 horsepower and up) feedwater to prevent scaling/burnout in place of normal boiler treatment chemicals, which can run into $thousands/month for a few hundred horsepower online around the clock. They do cause the scaling salts to settle out, but the blowdown cycles and the energy required to heat the makeup water doubles the cost of boiler treatment and insurance. :-) > > Then on a whim the other day, I poured a glass of water from the > kitchen sink, clipped a powerful pair of magnets onto the brass > faucet, and poured another glass for a taste test. Okay, treat the water as a cold plasma in a magnetic field....or a liquid maser with metastable energy states that the MHD effect of the water flowing from the faucet sweeping the ions to the side, thus changing the signal to your palate. > Night and day. Not > subtle at all. The normal sample had the slight bitter aftertaste > that I'm used to. The 'magnet' sample was very smooth tasting, > totally different. Try that on a glass of Dr. Willard's water. >And again - I won't even consider that the > difference was psychological or needed a blind test. How many ounces of Wild Turkey does it take for a double blind test? > You who read > this here cannot properly accept that last statement - you'd want > blind tests for empirical verification. But I now have it first hand. > > The magnets are now taped to the faucet. You might try a magnetic necktie, or such. Then sample the water from the Blue Lagoon. :-) Have a nice Christmas, Rick. :-) Regards, Frederick > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 00:32:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24638; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:31:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:31:27 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:39:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? Resent-Message-ID: <"QZ59x3.0.j06.U5nGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps the best thing that countries that can afford it can do is to manufacture large quantities of isolation suits - suits that can be air lifted, or even prepositioned en mass, so that indiginous emergency personnel can work effectively if a major outbreak should occur. It appears that even a billion dollars or so spent on this kind of effort would not be inappropriate for the level of threat to national security, and even a few million dollars might make a difference. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 02:44:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21248; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:43:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:43:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001701c06bd4$c11b3b40$9a8f85ce fjsparber> References: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> <001701c06bd4$c11b3b40$9a8f85ce fjsparber> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:43:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xTB4l.0.wB5.b1pGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick - >How many ounces of Wild Turkey does it take for a >double blind test? I don't know what it does or how, but it makes stuff taste netter. I doubt it would help WT much though. Maybe *you* could try that experiment! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 05:51:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31667; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 05:49:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 05:49:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A435D9F.11ED0FC4 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:56:47 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed References: <003701c06b60$d23e3ae0$8ab4bfa8 fjsparber> <001701c06bd4$c11b3b40$9a8f85ce fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G33DL2.0.jk7.xlrGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Frederick - > > >How many ounces of Wild Turkey does it take for a > >double blind test? > > I don't know what it does or how, but it makes stuff taste netter. I > doubt it would help WT much though. Maybe *you* could try that > experiment! I'll give it a shot. :-) After 6 oz. of the Kickin' Chick'n (WT 101) I see double. But, ti taksh four mor befor I am blind. Hapy Hollydays! (ker-plumk) Zz zzz z zz zz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 07:39:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03361; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:38:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: <3A42D306.FB902834 gorge.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NZ21C1.0.Mq.rLtGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: >Incidentally, the battle between experiment, and logic, as being >the best revealer of reality, has gone on for two millennia. > >I thought that the scientific community had reached the consensus >that BOTH were essential. I think so, but when they conflict, experiment wins. People have mystical ideas about logic and thought. Jones seems to think it is infallible; if he cannot imagine how the Mpemba effect works, the effect cannot be real. Logic is the operation of a biological computer, an organ of the body. The brain works no better or worse than any other organ, such as the eyes or lungs. No one would claim the eye is a perfect optical instrument which never fails and which can make out any level of detail at any distance. So why does anyone think the brain is capable of deriving the right answer in every case, automatically? It is amazing that the brain can do logic, mathematics or reasoning at all, since it was not evolved for that purpose, and it was not used for that until 200,000 years ago. It goes to show how flexible and adoptable the brain and other organs are. Consider the use of fingers to play the piano, type, or use sign language. Feet, hands and fingers originally evolved to walk on, and were later used for grasping. When people use fingers signing (the alphabetic codes used by people who are blind and deaf), the brain shifts portions usually devoted to language from the usual organs of speech to the hands instead. That's amazing, but speaking with the hands still awkward, and it is still imposing a function on the body which the body was never "designed" to do. So is doing higher logic, science or mathematics. It is not surprising that the process often fails, and many people are inept at these unnatural skills. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 08:13:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17315; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:12:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:12:35 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222105627.00c3bd20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:12:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001221075745.00c32710 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"4gW6s1.0.TE4.prtGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: reading >about or doing experiments that involved water, or discussing such >experiments, with the result that I feel *extremely* confident in asserting >that water is not a mixture containing substances unknown to science. You may feel confident, but you are dead wrong. Water is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, but its properties are all but unknown to science. >Result: I regard as absurd the notion that, other things equal, warm water >can freeze faster than cold. One need not be an expert on water--whatever >that is If you do not even know what that an expert on water is, you are completely ignorant of the subject. That's half your problem. Franks describes another person infected with this ignorant, anti-science, know-it-all attitude: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Physicists claim a much better understanding of esoteric substances like liquid helium or liquid nitrogen than they have of liquid water. In order to understand the enthusiasm with which many experienced scientists became involved with polywater, we must realize that during the mid-1960s the study of liquid water at a fundamental level was a popular pastime among chemists, despite the view held by most physicists that the problems were too difficult. Although a small minority of scientists had recognized that water has several unique and mysterious features which are implicated in its role as universal solvent on this planet, the prevalent view on the state of our knowledge was different. Clearly it was very much a case of familiarity breeding contempt. The general attitude was, for me, well exemplified by a chance conversation I had with a chemistry undergraduate whom I met on a train. I was returning home after giving a lecture at one of the largest industrial research laboratories in the U.K.; the student had been there for a job interview. He asked about the subject of my lecture. When I replied that I had talked about the structure of liquid water, he looked at me as though I were a lunatic and in a condescending manner informed me that water was just H20, and that anything one needed to know about it could be found on half a page of a standard textbook on inorganic chemistry. The clear message was that I was wasting my life. (I found out later that he did not get the job.) I have long since become reconciled to the fact that people take a complete knowledge of water so much for granted that any admission of an interest in its behavior from a physical, chemical, or biological viewpoint gives rise to astonishment or mild amusement. - p. 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >--to know enough to confidently discount the existence of >"polywater." --MJ}*** Real experts did not discount the existence of polywater. They performed careful experiments over several years to find out whether the stuff exists or not. Some of them still suspect that it might. Only an ignorant amateur who has no idea how complicated water is would "confidently discount" polywater. A person's confidence level in rejecting ANY reported experimental result is inversely proportional to his knowledge and understanding of the scientific method. People who know the most are least likely to jump to conclusions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 08:37:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27546; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:36:17 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222113337.00c3b690 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:35:14 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Good Seti article from "Wired" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RE45A1.0.Ck6.0CuGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recommend this screensaver. - JR http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,40801,00.html Seti: Is Anybody Out There? by Leander Kahney 2:00 a.m. Dec. 22, 2000 PST Seti Home has clocked half-a-million years in computer time searching for ET on home PCs, but the real work isn't due to begin in earnest until January. The Seti Home project harnesses the spare computing cycles of millions of PCs across the globe to search for telltale signs of intelligent life in radio signals beamed from outer space. Since its launch 18 months ago, 2.6 million people in 226 countries have downloaded Seti Home's screensaver software, which scans radio data when their computers aren't otherwise in use. The screensaver looks for strong signals among the white noise of the universe's background radio transmissions. But the process of figuring out which signals, if any, have come from alien civilizations won't start operating at full swing until the end of January, when the project brings online all its back-end servers. . . . . . . the Seti Home project has become the largest computing problem ever undertaken. It has clocked an astonishing 500,000 years in computing time, with another 1,000 years of processing time contributed every day. Collectively, the 2.6 million Seti Home machines are twice as powerful as the most powerful supercomputer on the planet, and a lot cheaper. The U.S. Government's ASCI White, housed at a California nuclear weapons research lab, is rated at 12 Teraflops (trillion operations a second) and cost $110 million to build. All day, every day, Seti Home operates at around 25 Teraflops but cost only $500,000, excluding the cost of the home PCs. "It's the biggest supercomputer on the planet by far," said the project's chief scientist, Dan Werthimer, an astronomer at the University of California at Berkeley's Space Sciences Laboratory. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 09:32:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16590; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:28:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: Charles Ford , Vortex Subject: Re: UNAUTORIZED USE OF PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRRESS In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001221092234.0096f8d0 postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rTfmV.0.834.XyuGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I received a letter titled thus, above. What is it all about? Please From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 09:48:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21283; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:40:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:40:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:46:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed In-Reply-To: <001701c06bd4$c11b3b40$9a8f85ce fjsparber> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JwXF51.0.OC5.H8vGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Rick, Wild Turkey is not allowed in these tests because it represents Artificial Intelligence. Don't drive with AI. On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rick Monteverde > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 5:54 PM > Subject: Re: Catalyst Activated Water for Jed > > The Great Conejo will be pleased, Rick. :-) > > > > Gnorts - > > > > While on the topic - we've all heard about magnet treated water, and > > I'm sure a few people on this list are using magnets on their water > > lines. But I always thought it would be one of those things that's > > too subtle to really know for sure, so I never bothered. > > In the early 80s these were being pushed for treating commercial boiler > (100 horsepower and up) feedwater to prevent scaling/burnout in place of > normal boiler treatment chemicals, which can run into $thousands/month for > a few hundred horsepower online around the clock. > > They do cause the scaling salts to settle out, but the blowdown cycles and the energy > required to heat the makeup water doubles the cost of boiler treatment and > insurance. :-) > > > > Then on a whim the other day, I poured a glass of water from the > > kitchen sink, clipped a powerful pair of magnets onto the brass > > faucet, and poured another glass for a taste test. > > Okay, treat the water as a cold plasma in a magnetic field....or a liquid > maser with metastable energy states that the MHD effect of the > water flowing from the faucet sweeping the ions to the side, thus > changing the signal to your palate. > > > Night and day. Not > > subtle at all. The normal sample had the slight bitter aftertaste > > that I'm used to. The 'magnet' sample was very smooth tasting, > > totally different. > > Try that on a glass of Dr. Willard's water. > > >And again - I won't even consider that the > > difference was psychological or needed a blind test. > > How many ounces of Wild Turkey does it take for a > double blind test? > > > You who read > > this here cannot properly accept that last statement - you'd want > > blind tests for empirical verification. But I now have it first hand. > > > > The magnets are now taped to the faucet. > > You might try a magnetic necktie, or such. Then sample the water > from the Blue Lagoon. :-) > > Have a nice Christmas, Rick. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 12:16:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15398; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:11:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:11:14 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222141239.00c25b88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:17:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Polywater definition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oGlN7.0.Vm3.YLxGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Reviewing messages by M. Jones, it is apparent to me that he does not have a clue what "polywater" is -- or what people thought it was. He keeps talking about "different substances." This is like saying that diamonds and graphite are different substances. More to the point, Jones is like a man who has seen only graphite, and who confidently asserts that diamonds cannot exist. Polywater, or polymerized water, was thought to be a long molecule of hydrogen and oxygen in the same ratio as water, 2:1. Ordinary water molecules are: H-O-H Polywater was thought to be an arrangement where each O had four bonds, instead of two, so that within the gigantic molecule O-H-O bonds are formed. (I cannot easily draw the proposed arrangements here, so I won't. See Franks, p. 98.) Many organic molecules, such as carbon disulfide, can exist as either monomers or polymers. Whether this arrangement can occur in nature or not could not be predicted by theory in 1975. Some experts said it was possible, others said no. The only way to find out was to perform experiments, and many people did this between 1963 and 1974. Some found inconclusive evidence, but most found nothing. Even those who found nothing agreed the research was challenging and rewarding. One said she considers this research the high point of her career, even though her results were all negative. Perhaps our knowledge of water chemistry has improved since 1981 when Franks published, and experts can now assert with confidence based on theory that no such long-lived arrangement of hydrogen and oxygen is possible. I doubt it. Theories are usually good at explaining what does happen and has been observed, but they can seldom tell us what cannot happen. Self-proclaimed water expert M. Jones may have some special deep knowledge of chemistry which he is withholding from the others in this field. He may know in detail why these molecules can never form and survive for more than a few milliseconds. The other experts took polywater seriously; he dismissed it. Either he knows far more than his colleagues, or he jumped to the safe conclusion that anything new is probably wrong, and he never bothered to examine the evidence. People who believe that cold fusion exists should learn about polywater. They should read the Franks book. They will learn that CF researchers are repeating many of mistakes polywater researchers made. People who say cold fusion does not exist, and fence-sitters like Jones who say they are not sure yet, should also read this book. It shows that the anti-polywater "skeptics" were hysterical, ignorant anti-science bigots who disgraced themselves. The polywater researchers were the heros in this story. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 12:35:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22202; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:30:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:30:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:30:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"g0wVS2.0.mQ5.MdxGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > People have mystical ideas about logic and thought. Jones seems to think > it is infallible. I get that strong impression also. Logic, though "perfect" if no reasoning mistakes are made, is INHERENTLY FLAWED, it is a garbage-in, garbage-out process. It is only as good as the premises feeding it. If unknowns must be fed in, logic doesn't work at all. That is, unless "fuzzy logic" is used, where percentages of known/unknown can be handled. Mitch certainly isn't using the probability-based reasoning of fussy logic. He's using the old stuff. How can we tell if a logical conclusion is wrong? Do we say "logic was used, so the conclusion is trustworthy?" (That's what I think Mitch is saying.) No, we check the conclusion against reality. If it doesn't match reality, then we know that there is an error somewhere. We don't have to say where it is. We are just certain that it's there. Its supporters can go find their own error and correct it. Is a certain phenomenon supposedly impossible? But if it does exist, then it must be possible, and anyone who insists on its impossibility, or who refuses to observe its existance, is not behaving as a scientist. They are behaving like a defensive debater who ignores reality in order to defend their position. They are behaving like Galileo's colleagues who thought they could make celestial phenomena go away by refusing to look through his telescope. If logic-based reasoning predicts that water cannot "record" its recent thermal history down within its micro-structure, how can we know if this logic-based prediction is trustworthy? WE MUST TEST IT! There is no other way. Mitch Jones, by trying to talk us out of the need for testing, seems to not care what the truth is, and instead cares about defending his debating position. Either that, or he seems to be avoiding responsibility for debugging his own logic and determining the truth by comparing his logical conclusions with reality. Instead he is trying to get everyone else to his work for him by starting a fierce debate. It sucks, either way. It's not the behavior of an honest scientist, it's the behavior of an expert in debate. Mitch doesn't seem to get the fact that science runs by very different rules and hidden assumptions than debate, and when compared to an ideal scientist, an ideal debate-expert has despicable ethics. Debate contains all sorts of wired-in dishonesty, such as the need to hide your strategy from your opponent. Science requires that we EXPOSE our entire strategy to our opponents, that we maintain enormous self-doubt, and that we try to DEFEAT OUR OWN CASE. A scientist who hides his strategy is extremely defenseive, even evasive and dishonest. A scientist who doesn't constantly search himself for embarassing blunders, and who thinks that others are responsible for finding them, is irresponsible, lazy, and unethical. But that's only true if the person is a scientist. What if he is not? In debate, you're NOT supposed to defeat your own case, and you're NOT supposed to damage your self-confidence by considering that all of your premises might be wrong. The purpose of debate is to sway your opponent, and truth is only a side effect, not the goal. In debate, you learn the truth when your opponent defeats you, and trying to defeat yourself is INSANITY according to how debate is done. Yet in science, you are supposed to do your damndest to defeat yourself, and when others try to defeat you, you are supposed to lower all your defenses, and give your critics all your weapons, and behave like your own enemy. That's how science searches for truth. Scientists who won't do this are highly unethical. Mitch Jones would make a fine captain of a debate team. But if he's supposedly a scientist, even an amateur, then the same behavior is unethical. It is a profound corruption of "scientific integrity." Mitch, are you familiar with Feynman's famous paper on honesty in science? The "bending over backwards" one? If so, what do you think of the oil/bread analogy? Do you think that his level of honesty is for weak, wishy-washy fools? In a debate, his level of honesty WOULD be weak and foolish, it would be like a sickness. The enormous self-doubt of a good scientist would appear as wishy-washiness to a debate expert. Science is not debate! The ethical requirements are totally incompatible. Debaters and scientists regard each other with the contempt and distain similar to that of the members of opposing religious beliefs. I thought you were a Pathological Skeptic, because I thought you were an amateur scientist. I was behaving like an Aztec priest, one wh sees Christians as disgustingly flawed Aztecs. But the disgusting flaws are probably illusory, they are partly caused by a scientist (me) seeing a debater (you) as being a corrupt, evasive, EXTREMELY unethical scientist. But if you are no scientist, but just a debater... then everything is fine! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 13:02:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01354; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:57:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:03:36 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: William Beaty cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fBgN31.0.4L.81yGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Bill, The scientist.... you are one... I am glad of it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 13:13:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04974; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:08:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:08:28 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:09:30 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"S6SRL3.0.aD1.BByGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now that is a good idea Horace. Hank On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > Perhaps the best thing that countries that can afford it can do is to > manufacture large quantities of isolation suits - suits that can be air > lifted, or even prepositioned en mass, so that indiginous emergency > personnel can work effectively if a major outbreak should occur. It > appears that even a billion dollars or so spent on this kind of effort > would not be inappropriate for the level of threat to national security, > and even a few million dollars might make a difference. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 13:54:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19788; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:49:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:49:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:49:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Polywater definition In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222141239.00c25b88 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OXmV_1.0.2r4.OnyGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Reviewing messages by M. Jones, it is apparent to me that he does not have > a clue what "polywater" is -- or what people thought it was. One variety of "polywater" is genuine. Ions and charged sections of larger molecules dissolved in water are surrounded by a layer of "organized" water about 3nM thick. The positive end of one molecule attracts the negative end of the next, and many tens of layers build up. But it's not stable against thermal vibration, so the farther the layer is from the charged molecule, the more it is bashed into disorganization. I think that the spherical layers of water which surround a single ion are called the "solvation shells." The water inside of living cells is considered to be ENTIRELY composed of this "structured water" stuff. Polywater lives! I mean, as far as biological tissues are almost entirely water, they are almost entirely "polywater." The Russian "polywater" was thought to be a non-living version of the same thing. But it most probably was sodium silicate solution, silica gel. I don't know if this was ever proved. Instead, the "scientific concensus" underwent a phase transition, and all the backs were turned against the polywater claimants. Like a religious community expelling a heretic! Don't let them see you NOT turn your back, or YOU might be next! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 14:02:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22461; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:56:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:56:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:43:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_DeJq2.0.iU5.ntyGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >Logic, though "perfect" if no reasoning mistakes are made . . . I don't know about that, but in any case, reasoning mistakes are often made. Jones knows that other people make logic errors. Since his own brain is physically similar to others, presumably with a similar error rate, he should take it for granted that his brain make logic errors too. Naturally, these errors will be invisible to him. He reminds me of a Victorian woman who imagines that she alone never farts. I favor demystifying the brain and thinking processes in general. The brain is an undependable, hit or miss organic computer. The only way you can be reasonably sure a conclusion is correct is to have several different brains process the data. >, is INHERENTLY >FLAWED, it is a garbage-in, garbage-out process. It is only as good as >the premises feeding it. If unknowns must be fed in, logic doesn't work >at all. That is, unless "fuzzy logic" is used, where percentages of >known/unknown can be handled. Mitch certainly isn't using the >probability-based reasoning of fussy logic. He's using the old stuff. Fuzzy logic is probably the only kind we are capable of using. We use it to simulate strong logic, with varying success. Each person probably performs basic logic operations in a different way, with a different set of mental habits, just as we all eat, speak and walk differently. (You can easily recognize a person you know well by the sound of his walking. You can even tell whether he is happy or upset.) Richard Feynman once did informal tests to determine the train of thought (or mental state) of different people while they performed simple counting and arithmetic problems. He found thought patterns were quite different from one person to the next, in easily observable ways, and the kinds of errors people make are different. When a brain performs a simple arithmetic operations such as adding 63 to 18, it is performing an act it was never evolved to do. It must draw upon inappropriate and inefficient mechanisms and physical processes which evolved to do things like hunting and gathering food. It is like trying to sharpen a pencil by whacking it with an ax. In essence people are non-standard, uncalibrated, one-of-a-kind computers 'designed' for a totally unrelated purpose, trying to perform strong logic operations on abstract entities using fuzzy logic circuitry. It would be a miracle if they did not make frequent errors! A five-cent plastic lens in a throw-away camera is a much better optical instrument than the human eye, and a purpose-designed hard-logic digital computer can outperform human beings in logic problems with an error rate millions of times lower. >How can we tell if a logical conclusion is wrong? > >Do we say "logic was used, so the conclusion is trustworthy?" (That's >what I think Mitch is saying.) > > >No, we check the conclusion against reality. If it doesn't match reality, >then we know that there is an error somewhere. That is the essence of the scientific method. We also try to check the logic, mainly by running it through several different brains, but that is a chancy operation. It is nowhere near as reliable as performing an experiment. And, since our brains were not evolved to perform experiments either (except simple ones, such as testing the ice before you stand on it), we often make mistakes while doing experiments too. Therefore we must wait until several different people have done the experiment and observed the same result before we know something is real. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 14:25:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01542; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:24:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:24:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222171717.00c2a340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:23:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ivniJ3.0.0O.2IzGw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Each person probably performs basic logic operations in a different way, with a different set of mental habits, just as we all eat, speak and walk differently. (You can easily recognize a person you know well by the sound of his walking. You can even tell whether he is happy or upset.)" As an aside to my aside, let me add that dogs and cats can do that trick too. They can easily recognize a human family member, and read his mood by the sound of his footsteps down the hall. So the data must be present. Every person's tread must be unique and recognizable. This is the kind of mental task we DID evolve to perform: recognizing another creature and reading its mental state from a distance from sound alone in a noisy environment, or from the mere movement of a shadow. A person or a dog can do that faster and more accurately than any computer in existence, and we will for a long time to come. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 15:23:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19375; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:20:17 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001222165528.03bc45b0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:18:40 -0600 To: hydrino eGroups.com From: Scott Little Subject: HiFi Replication Status Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uDd-i1.0.ek4.m6-Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First of all, let me thank Gerhard Mesenich for an excellent analysis of our experiment. His suggestions were very helpful. One point, Gerhard: the heat energy conveyed out of the Dewar via the escaping gas is entirely negligible...about 10^-5 watt. Second, armed with what appears to be a full understanding of our various gas flow measurements, I went back over the data from Run 1 and, from the U-tube data, calculated what the actual gas flow would have been had I used the horizontal liquid piston method. Surprisingly the results show that, after the experiment had equilibrated, no recombination was occurring in the cell. In fact, the data shows that about 104% of the expected gas was emerging fro the cell. This is a familiar number to me...it matches the measurements I have made in the past on higher current cells using an inverted beaker. Importantly, this new interpretation of Run 1 indicates that we did indeed observe an excess heat signal....about 77mw! However, applying the same calculations to the gas measurements performed during Run 2, which was the same as Run 1 except that Na2CO3 was used instead of K2CO3, I find that about 125% of the expected gas was emerging from the cell!! I don't think that is possible (please correct me if I'm wrong)...so it makes me suspicious of the measurements. Assuming no recombination in the cell, Run 2 also shows an excess heat...about 56 mW! Just today, I tried to reproduce the conditions of Run 1 in order to confirm the gas measurements and I find that something has apparently changed inside the cell. The voltage required to make 0.083 amps flow thru the cell has dropped to about 2.1 volts (from an original value of 2.85). This makes me nervous since it is a long way from what Mills reported (~3.0 volts). Therefore I have placed the experiment on a zero run with the cell filled with distilled water for the Xmas holidays (I'll be gone all next week). When I return, I will start ALL OVER on this experiment with a brand new Ni cathode and fresh electrolyte and I will do the experiment again...except that this time, I think I know what I'm doing with the gas flow measurements....:) Please don't read too much into the above information. It's rather sketchy and ridden with corrections and adjustments. I'm just sharing everything as this experiment proceeds. I should be able to get much more reliable data the second time around. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 15:37:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23719; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:32:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:32:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20001222165528.03bc45b0 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001222165528.03bc45b0 earthtech.org> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:32:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"aQ3t81.0.Xo5.YI-Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - All I want for Christmas is some Excess Heat... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Please don't read too much into the above information. It's rather >sketchy and ridden with corrections and adjustments. I'm just >sharing everything as this experiment proceeds. I should be able to >get much more reliable data the second time around. > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 15:38:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24761; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:36:05 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:35:11 -0500 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200012221835_MC2-BFAB-AD42 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA24683 Resent-Message-ID: <"pOoSL.0.n26.bL-Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've ventured out of lurking mode to ask Scott Little whether the test runs with both tube configurations in series, and which gave identical flow results, were repeated with the devices in reverse order? If the horizontal tube was first the pressures in the 2 configs would be different cf the horizontal following the U tube, and you might see different rates of movement in the 2 layouts. Only a thought! Norman Horwood - yes I'm still alive! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:03:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00854; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:03:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:03:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20001222175821.03bd2ec0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:01:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HSG: A possible solution to Scott Little's gas flow problem In-Reply-To: <200012221835_MC2-BFAB-AD42 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"MSTGm1.0.FD.tk-Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:35 PM 12/22/00 -0500, Norman Horwood wrote: >I've ventured out of lurking mode to ask Scott Little whether the test runs >with both tube configurations in series, and which gave identical flow >results, were repeated with the devices in reverse order? If the >horizontal tube was first the pressures in the 2 configs would be different >cf the horizontal following the U tube, and you might see different rates >of movement in the 2 layouts. Only a thought! Yes, Norman, we tried both orders of devices. Same result...the same rate of movement as with the U-tube alone. This fits with our present understanding of things. The U-tube is essentially measuring the pressure change in the cell as the electrolysis gas is added to the cell volume V. It's radically different than the horizontal liquid piston flowmeter. Now the mystery is why I ever thought they would be the same....:) Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:27:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07453; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:23:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:23:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3A43E287.53C76E3D ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:23:53 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001222165528.03bc45b0 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5G2mr3.0.Jq1.t1_Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Glad to see that the flow measurement is now understood. However, my recent experience suggests that some CO2 will be released and this release will slow down as the solution becomes more basic. I suggest you check the pH before and after. If this is happening, the 104% and the 125% is high because of this extra gas. Indeed, recombination may be occurring with the deficit being more than made up by the CO2. Also, as CO2 leaves the solution, the conductivity of the electrolyte will change. Your observed change in applied voltage may be partly caused by this effect as well as by changes in the Ni surface. Ni is not completely inert in such a cell, with some Ni being dissolved in the electrolyte as Ni ions. Ed Scott Little wrote: > First of all, let me thank Gerhard Mesenich for an excellent analysis of > our experiment. His suggestions were very helpful. One point, Gerhard: > the heat energy conveyed out of the Dewar via the escaping gas is entirely > negligible...about 10^-5 watt. > > Second, armed with what appears to be a full understanding of our various > gas flow measurements, I went back over the data from Run 1 and, from the > U-tube data, calculated what the actual gas flow would have been had I used > the horizontal liquid piston method. Surprisingly the results show that, > after the experiment had equilibrated, no recombination was occurring in > the cell. In fact, the data shows that about 104% of the expected gas was > emerging fro the cell. This is a familiar number to me...it matches the > measurements I have made in the past on higher current cells using an > inverted beaker. Importantly, this new interpretation of Run 1 indicates > that we did indeed observe an excess heat signal....about 77mw! > > However, applying the same calculations to the gas measurements performed > during Run 2, which was the same as Run 1 except that Na2CO3 was used > instead of K2CO3, I find that about 125% of the expected gas was emerging > from the cell!! I don't think that is possible (please correct me if I'm > wrong)...so it makes me suspicious of the measurements. Assuming no > recombination in the cell, Run 2 also shows an excess heat...about 56 mW! > > Just today, I tried to reproduce the conditions of Run 1 in order to > confirm the gas measurements and I find that something has apparently > changed inside the cell. The voltage required to make 0.083 amps flow thru > the cell has dropped to about 2.1 volts (from an original value of > 2.85). This makes me nervous since it is a long way from what Mills > reported (~3.0 volts). > > Therefore I have placed the experiment on a zero run with the cell filled > with distilled water for the Xmas holidays (I'll be gone all next week). > > When I return, I will start ALL OVER on this experiment with a brand new Ni > cathode and fresh electrolyte and I will do the experiment again...except > that this time, I think I know what I'm doing with the gas flow > measurements....:) > > Please don't read too much into the above information. It's rather sketchy > and ridden with corrections and adjustments. I'm just sharing everything > as this experiment proceeds. I should be able to get much more reliable > data the second time around. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 16:38:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11634; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:35:27 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:41:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Michael Randall cc: Vortex Subject: Re: [antigrav] One Terminal Capacitor- Part 2 In-Reply-To: <005b01c06bc4$c09dc120$0201a8c0 m> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eSLUR3.0.hr2.ED_Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Does anyone have any diagrams of these one terminal capacitors? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 17:11:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21499; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:10:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A43FEAC.E34461C8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:23:56 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 22, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_QH6P1.0.rF5.5k_Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Dec 22, 2000 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:15:55 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 22 Dec 00 Washington, DC 1. CELL PHONES AND CANCER: DOES THIS STORY SOUND FAMILIAR? It should, it features many of the same players who brought you the power line controversy. It began on Jan 23, 1993; a guest on Larry King Live, whose wife had died of brain cancer, was suing the cell-phone industry, claiming her cancer was caused by a cell phone: "She held it against her head, and she talked on it all the time," he said (WN 29 Jan 93). With such "evidence," story after story in the media focused on the cancer question. At that time, people still thought power lines caused cancer. The power line controversy was not put to rest until the National Cancer Institute released a definitive epidemiological study of the connection between childhood cancer and residential EMF exposure. Any link, the study concluded, is too weak to detect or to be concerned about. This week, two major studies of cell phone use and cancer were published, one by an industry group and one by the National Cancer Institute. Both concluded that cell phone users are no more likely than anyone else to have brain cancer. 2. STILL NOT REASSURED? YOU MAY NEED "THE BIOCHIP." Back when people still thought they could get cancer from sitting in front of their computer, Ted Litovitz, a Catholic University physicist, thought the problem must be the coherent EMF from the computer. So he began marketing a keyboard that added noise to the emitted EMF (WN 27 May 94). If cell phones are now causing cancer, it must be those pesky sine waves again. Solution? The BioChip, a tiny device inserted in the batteries. It emits noise to prevent your body from picking up the regular rhythm of the phone signal. 3. NEED MORE REASSURANCE? HOW ABOUT THE "BIOELECTRIC SHIELD"? It's an attractive pendant made of crystals designed to balance and strengthen your natural energy field (WN 24 Jul 98). It not only shields you from the EMF emanating from electrical devices, it protects you from the energy fields of the people around you. 4. DOE: "CRISIS" REPORT CALLS FOR RESTRUCTURING. A high-level panel chaired by Robert C. Richardson, Cornell Vice Provost for Research and a physics Nobel laureate, notes that "problems in the DOE weapons and environmental programs have given the overall agency a negative image that, in practice, has proved damaging to all of DOE, including its missions in science and energy." The eleven-member panel collectively embodies decades of experience in setting science research policy. In a brief report stamped "CRISIS," issued this week, the panel proposes to correct this problem by restructuring DOE. This would involve either breaking the department up and combining its science and energy research roles with NIST and NOAA to form a "21st Century Department of Commerce," or elevating the Director of the DOE Office of Science to the rank of "Under Secretary for Science and Energy with additional responsibilities as Science Advisor to the Secretary." The American Physical Society (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 17:13:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21989; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:11:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:11:27 -0800 Message-ID: <00c901c06c7c$cc46a420$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: "John Schnurer" Cc: "Vortex" References: Subject: Re: [antigrav] One Terminal Capacitor- Part 2 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:08:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"rE6eq2.0.VN5.-k_Gw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John! You can find the diagrams of the one terminal capacitor design by Joe Hiddink in his patent US4095162: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=US4095162&ID=US +++4095162A1+I+ Ionizable gas, in a gas discharge tube, acts as the second "plate" and when switched off changes from a 2 terminal capacitor to a 1 terminal capacitor. Joseph does this to generate momentarily large voltages for anti-gravity applications. Patent description page 4, lines 13 to 25: "A 2 terminal capacity of 10 microfarads, charged up to 10kV would be 1/10 Coulomb (Q equals CV). If the capacity of the sphere was 100pF, the potential which generated is momentarily about 100 million volts." Any ideas on how to make those gas discharge tubes to get 1 microfarad capacity? Regards, Michael Randall ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Michael Randall" Cc: "Vortex" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [antigrav] One Terminal Capacitor- Part 2 > > Does anyone have any diagrams of these one terminal capacitors? > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 22 18:33:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09793; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:32:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:32:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:40:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: PHYSICS EXAM Resent-Message-ID: <"X2vB51.0.rO2.yw0Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This was sent to me by a friend. It is just too good not to share. Happy Holidays! PHYSICS EXAM (true story) The following concerns a question in a physics degree exam at the University of Copenhagen: "Describe how to determine the height of a skyscraper with a barometer." One student replied: "You tie a long piece of string to the neck of the barometer, then lower the barometer from the roof of the skyscraper to the ground. The length of the string plus the length of the barometer will equal the height of the building." This highly original answer so incensed the examiner that the student was failed. The student appealed on the grounds that his answer was indisputably correct, and the university appointed an independent arbiter to decide the case. The arbiter judged that the answer was indeed correct, but did not display any noticeable knowledge of physics. To resolve the problem it was decided to call the student in and allow him six minutes in which to provide a verbal answer which showed at least a minimal familiarity the basic principles of physics. For five minutes the student sat in silence, forehead creased in thought. The arbiter reminded him that time was running out, to which the student replied that he had several extremely relevant answers, but couldn't make up his mind which to use. On being advised to hurry up the student replied as follows: "Firstly, you could take the barometer up to the roof of the skyscraper, drop it over the edge, and measure the time it takes to reach the ground. The height of the building can then be worked out from the formula H = 0.5g x t squared. But bad luck on the barometer." "Or if the sun is shining you could measure the height of the barometer, then set it on end and measure the length of its shadow. Then you measure the length of the skyscraper's shadow, and thereafter it is a simple matter of proportional arithmetic to work out the height of the skyscraper." "But if you wanted to be highly scientific about it, you could tie a short piece of string to the barometer and swing it like a pendulum, first at ground level and then on the roof of the skyscraper. The height is worked out by the difference in the gravitational restoring force T = 2 pi sqroot (l / g)." "Or if the skyscraper has an outside emergency staircase, it would be easier to walk up it and mark off the height of the skyscraper in barometer lengths, then add them up." "If you merely wanted to be boring and orthodox about it, of course, you could use the barometer to measure the air pressure on the roof of the skyscraper and on the ground, and convert the difference in millibars into feet to give the height of the building." "But since we are constantly being exhorted to exercise independence of mind and apply scientific methods, undoubtedly the best way would be to knock on the janitor's door and say to him 'If you would like a nice new barometer, I will give you this one if you tell me the height of this skyscraper'." The student was Niels Bohr, the only person from Denmark to win the Nobel prize for Physics. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 01:58:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA19315; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:57:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:05:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? Resent-Message-ID: <"06j1C3.0.hj4.PS7Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:09 PM 12/22/0, hank scudder wrote: >Now that is a good idea Horace. > >Hank > >On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Perhaps the best thing that countries that can afford it can do is to >> manufacture large quantities of isolation suits - suits that can be air >> lifted, or even prepositioned en mass, so that indiginous emergency >> personnel can work effectively if a major outbreak should occur. It >> appears that even a billion dollars or so spent on this kind of effort >> would not be inappropriate for the level of threat to national security, >> and even a few million dollars might make a difference. Thanks, Hank. It would also require manufacturing a corresponding amount of decontamination equipment, in case they ever wanted to get unsuited. How are the physics classes going? Enjoy competing with the youngsters? Finals must be over now. (I'm a bit envious that you can go back to school like that full time! I still have two kids in college, so am not free to do that.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 03:18:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA32068; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:17:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:17:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mitch is still a Mystery! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5Pvc.0.-q7.xc8Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch, do you have privacy issues? I hope you'll put on a more human face on Vortex-L, so that I (and perhaps others here) won't so easily "project" and "demonize". When somebody acts like a blank slate, it's easy for them to become a projector-screen for the wrong assumptions made by colleagues. And I hope you'll read some of my articles on http://www.amasci.com/billb.html so you won't do the same to me. On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, William Beaty wrote: >Mitch wrote: > > I am *not* taking a position without looking at > > physical evidence. The fact is that I have looked at *massive* evidence, > > Really? > > A problem: I know almost nothing about you. If you've described yourself > on Vortex-L before, I missed it. When you state your opinions, I don't > know which ones are based on direct experience. What's your background? > Your day job? Have you done professional research, and if yes, what kind? > Do you have your personal info on the web anywhere? Are you a hobbyist > with a home lab, or are you exclusively a theorist? Are you a lawyer who > has an interest in science? A biochemist with years of direct > professional experience? A retired rancher? > > "You have me at a disadvantage, sir." :) > > As always, my resume and other stuff is online at > http://www.amasci.com/billb.html. > > I'm a physicist-wannabe. My current day job is embedded design and SW, > while my main avocation is writing articles for gradeschool science > teachers on explaining electricity (see > http://www.amasci.com/ele-edu.html) I hang out on the PHYS-L physics > education list. I have a 9-yr old daughter, an ex-wife, and a cat. > And a garage full of junk which needs some heaters rigged up so I can > still play during the winter. (No, it's not cold enough out there to > serve as a Mpemba test environment!) :) > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 05:01:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12546; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:00:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:00:20 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01c06ce8$55fb02e0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:57:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dWy3N3.0.y33.a7AHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Entertaining myself while being housebound for a spell. Horace will try this, I'll bet. :-) Take a frying pan and put about 1/2 inch of water in it. Then invert a bowl and set it in the bottom of the pan and set it on a stove burner. Weights, like a can of stew can be set on the bowl to load this vibrating steam/vapor piston. Now, once you get the picture of the water film vaporizing on the bottom of the pan and lifting the bowl-piston and venting around the water seal, you are ready for Phase II, which will use a Pressure-Cooker as a closed system Steam/Vapor Heat Engine with a condenser-gravity condensate return. Place the bowl (inverted) in a pressure cooker that has about 1/2 inch of water in it. Soup-can weights can be set on the bowl to show that there is mechanical work being performed according to the steam formula: P-L-A-N/33,000 = Horsepower P = Pressure Differential (Pounds/Square inch) L = Length of Stroke (Feet) A = Area (Square Inches) N = Number of Strokes Per Minute Note, that in this case the stroke in feet is about 0.060 inches/12 inches, but the number of strokes/minute can get quite high depending on the heat flux flashing the water/fluid to a large volume of steam/vapor that is doing work on the "Free Piston", that is consistent with PLAN/33,000, Horsepower or Horsepower Times 746 = Watts. Place wet dish-cloths/towels on top of the pressure cooker to get a condensing temperature of ~ 212 F, which will establish the pressure differential inside the pressure-cooker/ Heat Pipe. With a "Linear Generator" made by attaching magnets to the shaft on the vibrating piston and letting the magnetic field of the magnets vibrate inside a coil, one has a steam/vapor heat engine-generator that can work off about any high or low grade heat source. P.S. I have several proprietary designs in the mill, too. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 06:16:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19635; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:15:30 -0800 Message-ID: <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: What eyeballs can do that plastic lenses can't Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:18:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9k13t3.0.eo4.1EBHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In otherwise admirable comments on brains and logic, Jed said > A five-cent plastic lens in a > throw-away camera is a much better optical instrument than the human eye, > and a purpose-designed hard-logic digital computer can outperform human > beings in logic problems with an error rate millions of times lower. which leads me to observe that the human eye, and by extension the whole visual system, accomplishes things the bit of molded plastic cannot. 1) It has built in autofocus which works well for about 40 years and then gradually becomes fixed focus. 2) The lens and eyeball grow in cooperation to get a sharp focus at distance in normal people (I'm nearsighted. It has been suggested that nightlights in nurseries allow non-focused illumination of the retina through closed eyelids, interfering with the process that monitors eyeball growth by testing for contrast in retinal images -- being greatest when the lens is in focus). 3) Automatic compensation for illumination color, so white and relative colors are correctly perceived by daylight and firelight. 4) Peripheral motion detection and automatic lock and tracking of moving targets 5) Extreme adaptability to illumination changes, with threshold near single photon events in real time The list grows. The whole visual system compensates marvelously for the nominal optical deficiencies of the lens which forms an image on a curved surface. One psychologist wore glasses which inverted the image. eventually he compensated for this and the world seemed normal to him, hand-eye coordination worked, etc. When he took the glasses off, the world seemed upside-down for a while. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 06:31:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22599; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:31:09 -0800 Message-ID: <005001c06cf5$06538ca0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:26:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06CB1.BA795960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"YNtAQ3.0.1X5.jSBHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06CB1.BA795960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the basic science for a "Linear Generator" that can make the Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine into a heat engine-generator that can work off of low-grade heat down to cryogenic temperatures from milliwatts to several kilowatts.. http://rhs.rocklin.k12.ca.us/Physics/APPhysics/chapter22/inducedEMF.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06CB1.BA795960 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Induced EMF.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Induced EMF.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://rhs.rocklin.k12.ca.us/Physics/APPhysics/chapter22/inducedEMF.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://rhs.rocklin.k12.ca.us/Physics/APPhysics/chapter22/inducedEMF.htm Modified=80944CEFF36CC0016F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06CB1.BA795960-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 06:35:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22957; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:34:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 06:34:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A44B7E1.EDB92078 groupz.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:34:09 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What eyeballs can do that plastic lenses can't References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0@pop.mindspring.com> <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IPEUI.0.Wc5.aVBHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Only take three days to adapt to inverted glasses...normal vision is inverted to begin with....just like camera.....steve opelc Mike Carrell wrote: > > The list grows. The whole visual system compensates marvelously for the > nominal optical deficiencies of the lens which forms an image on a curved > surface. One psychologist wore glasses which inverted the image. eventually > he compensated for this and the world seemed normal to him, hand-eye > coordination worked, etc. When he took the glasses off, the world seemed > upside-down for a while. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 07:14:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28435; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:14:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:14:09 -0800 Message-ID: <006e01c06cfb$081a3420$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:10:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0FO051.0.Dy6.15CHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sources of Low Grade Heat for the Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine with an Alternating Current Linear Generator: 1, Alaskan Perma-Frost (in the winter) 2, Well Water 3, Ocean Thermal Strata 4, Geothermal Heat 5, Manure Piles 6, As a Rectal Thermometer in an Elephant 7, Cold Fusion/Over-Unity Heat 8, Radio-Isotope Heat 9, Solar Oven 10, Camp Fires/Stoves 11, Etc. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 07:44:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00453; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:43:07 -0800 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:42:50 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What eyeballs can do that plastic lenses can't Message-ID: <20001223154250.C621 tao.org.uk> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0@pop.mindspring.com> <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1@asus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1 asus>; from mikec@snip.net on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 09:18:15AM -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <"4pmVp3.0._6.AWCHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 09:18:15AM -0800, Mike Carrell wrote: > In otherwise admirable comments on brains and logic, Jed said > > > > A five-cent plastic lens in a > > throw-away camera is a much better optical instrument than the human eye, > > and a purpose-designed hard-logic digital computer can outperform human > > beings in logic problems with an error rate millions of times lower. > > which leads me to observe that the human eye, and by extension the whole > visual system, accomplishes things the bit of molded plastic cannot. > > 1) It has built in autofocus which works well for about 40 years and then > gradually becomes fixed focus. This "fact" is most likely a dogmatic belief. Read Bates for more detail. There's evidence to suggest that the eye can stay "healthy" a whole life time given the right exercises. Joe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 12:57:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29857; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:41:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001223154224.007a1ae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:42:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What eyeballs can do that plastic lenses can't In-Reply-To: <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1 asus> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001222161013.00c223f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uuo7n2.0.RI7.DuGHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >which leads me to observe that the human eye, and by extension the whole >visual system, accomplishes things the bit of molded plastic cannot. > >1) It has built in autofocus which works well for about 40 years and then >gradually becomes fixed focus. >2) The lens and eyeball grow in cooperation to get a sharp focus at distance >in normal people . . . >3) Automatic compensation for illumination color, so white and relative >colors are correctly perceived by daylight and firelight. That's software, not hardware! Or brainware, I guess. The other critical brainware function is to compensate for the lousy focal field. In his discussion of eyes versus cameras (which I cribbed), Arthur Clarke suggested this simple test: Look at word on a sheet of paper. The rest of the sheet is blurred. When you see a page, or the landscape outside, you eye is wandering all over it and the mind is assembling a picture. This is hard work. I wonder whether this is why people get such pleasure out of seeing a landscape reduced to a small area in a painting or photograph. >4) Peripheral motion detection and automatic lock and tracking of moving >targets Again, I think that is brainware, not the lens system or optic nerves. >5) Extreme adaptability to illumination changes, with threshold near single >photon events in real time That would be the optic nerves, plus brainware, I think. >The list grows. The whole visual system compensates marvelously for the >nominal optical deficiencies of the lens which forms an image on a curved >surface. One psychologist wore glasses which inverted the image. eventually >he compensated for this and the world seemed normal to him, hand-eye >coordination worked, etc. When he took the glasses off, the world seemed >upside-down for a while. In the book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat," Oliver Sacks described a similar experiment with an elderly patient whose ear canal no longer functioned. He lost his balance. The patient himself devised a level bob which he hung in front of his glasses. When he stood or walked, he would watch the bob and consciously keep himself level. It was difficult at first, but after a week, it became automatic. Not only was he able to walk or stand naturally, but he no longer paid conscious attention to the bob. And although it interrupted his visual field, he ignored it, the way a person wearing glasses cancels out the view of the glasses frame. In this case optic sensations substituted for the inner ear balancing function of the otolith organs. This illustrates how amazingly flexible the brain is, even at old age. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 14:02:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11668; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:01:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:01:27 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:09:13 -0900 To: ibr gte.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Experimental data on over-unity of hadronic reactors Resent-Message-ID: <"dTQcj1.0.As2.t2IHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 AM 12/21/0, Institute for Basic Research wrote: >Dear Horace, > >Thanks for your question. It is an important one for all research in new >energies which, as such, should be discussed. > >The position of our Institute is the following. We believe that energy >simply cannot be created from nothing, i.e., energy must originate from >some source to be credible and plausible. > >Therefore, we believe that the "scientific energy balance" is always >smaller than one (under-unity), defined as the ratio between the total >energy out and the TOTAL energy in. The under-unitty is then due to the >usual uncontrollable losses. > >The only possible over-unity which is scientifically credible in my view >(but, please, do let me know of opposite views proved by evidence) is what One definition used or implied commonly on this list for overunity devices is that they produce a total energy balance beyond that which can be expected chemically, the excess being called "free" energy. Net energy obtained from low energy nuclear reactions (such reactions not being easily detected) or tapped from ZPE or some unknown source, or obtained by violation of one of the laws of thermodynamics, would constitute "free energy" as the term is generally used on this list. IF ANYONE ON THE LIST TAKES ISSUE WITH THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS A RESPONSE WOULD BE APPRECIATED. Some times I assume too much. >I have called "commercial energy balance", that is, the ratio between the >total energy produced and ONLY the energy paid for. > >More specifically, to achieve credibility and acceptance by a wide >audience, the above definition requires the very important joint >identification of WHERE the excess energy originates. > >For the case of our hadronic reactors we have > >SCIENTIFIC ENERGY BALANCE = > >total energy out >-------------------- = >total energy in > >energy in gas + energy in heat >--------------------------------------- < 1 >electric energy + energy in molecules > > >COMMERCIAL ENERGY BALANCE = > >total energy out >-------------------- = >electric energy in > >energy in gas + energy in heat >--------------------------------------- >> 1 >electric energy > > >with COP of 3.3 for minimally operating hadronic reactors (low kWh, >atmospheric pressure, and low liquid temp), with much bigger over-unities >for more powerful reactors (because the efficiency improves nonlinearity >with the features). > >Your interpretation that hadronic reactors are "burning" liquid is quite >nice and essentially true. In fact, hadronic reactors were conceived and >constructed to tap energy from molecular bonds, with the clear >understanding, stressed by William Pound in his last message to vortex >friends, that THE ORIGIN OF OUR OVER-UNITY IS STILL UNKNOWN SCIENTIFICALLY. As Scott Little pointed out, it would be essential to have the total energy balance figures from one of your experiments to begin to see if your device is overunity in any context commonly used on this list. > >A first point that should be of interest to vortex frien ds is that in >alternative definitions over-unity is synonym of creation of energy, with >consequential instant aneous loss of credibility. I think it is safe to say that credibility with regards to claims of overunity or free energy is not a major concern on this list! All manner of claims are investigated by many here in an open minded manner - provided there is sufficient data to see an overall energy balance is overunity in any context normally used here, and that sufficient information and resources are available to permit a replication or test. Within the context of the term "overunity" commonly used here, there are numerous claims for devices that produce such, including some of those in Dr. Randell L. Mills' book, which Scott Little is testing at the moment. > >A second point of possible interest is that exactly the same definitions of >scientific vs commercial over-unities apply to ALL over-unities with a >solid scientific backgrounds because, again, the excess energy must come >from somewhere. By "solid scientific backgrounds" it appears you mean accepted theory? It is hoped here that evidence for overunity devices beyond present scientific knowledge has been discovered by various individuals. It should be mentioned that solid scientific TESTING for overunity by any definition commonly used here does not require much more in the way of background than an ability to do accurate calorimetry, or the ability to produce a device which runs with no inputs, i.e. which has "closed the loop." > >A third and final point of potential interest, also expressed by William >Pound, is that the mechanism of over-unity of hadronic reactors are >applicable to a considerable number of other cases (although evidently not >to all). More specifically, they are applicable whenever the energy is >obtained via effects which are nonlinear, and/or nonlocal, and/or >nonpotential, thus being kilimetrically outside the old quantum mechanics. I am still curious, and not sure I understand. Are you saying that the total energy balance in any of your experiments is not zero, looking at the balance from a purely electrical and chemical energy standpoint? In other words, are you saying that consideration of nuclear energy or some energy source outside the realm of ordinary electrochemistry is required to balance the overall inputs and outputs of your system? Are you saying that nuclear reactions of any kind are occuring in your systems - that nuclear byproducts can be detected? Low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), those not anticipated by accepted theory at the energy levels involved on either the input or output side, is of course a very hot topic here, whether free energy results or not. (I think claims of LENR are just as radically dismissed by the majority of physicists as claims of free energy within the definitions I mentioned above, but still, claims of LENR results are open mindedly examined if not warmly embraced here!) If it is true that your overall chemical plus electrical energy balance is zero in all cases, and if you have no endpoint evidence of nuclear reactions, i.e. "nuclear ash" then it is understandable the lack of response to your information here on vortex. Despite the fact I assume you have a very viable commercial product, it appears, from the lack of response on vortex, that there has not been enough information provided here yet to get anyone excited regarding any possible scientific anomalies. More information being posted to the vortex list would be appreciated, especially overall energy balance information, and any evidence there might be for nuclear reactions. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 14:16:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14051; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:15:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:23:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"16gUw1.0.TR3.3GIHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:10 AM 12/23/0, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Sources of Low Grade Heat for the Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine >with an Alternating Current Linear Generator: > >1, Alaskan Perma-Frost (in the winter) >2, Well Water >3, Ocean Thermal Strata >4, Geothermal Heat >5, Manure Piles >6, As a Rectal Thermometer in an Elephant >7, Cold Fusion/Over-Unity Heat >8, Radio-Isotope Heat >9, Solar Oven >10, Camp Fires/Stoves >11, Etc. :-) If you used a small low pressure vessel, say with alcohol as the fluid, then it could even work from the heat of your hand. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 14:34:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17051; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:33:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:33:57 -0800 Message-ID: <00a001c06d38$788d5ba0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:30:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ChiRT1.0.LA4.LXIHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner To: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine An associate designed the Heat Pipe Stanchions on the Alaska Pipeline. They use Ammonia as the working fluid. Regards, Frederick > At 8:10 AM 12/23/0, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >Sources of Low Grade Heat for the Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine > >with an Alternating Current Linear Generator: > > > >1, Alaskan Perma-Frost (in the winter) > >2, Well Water > >3, Ocean Thermal Strata > >4, Geothermal Heat > >5, Manure Piles > >6, As a Rectal Thermometer in an Elephant > >7, Cold Fusion/Over-Unity Heat > >8, Radio-Isotope Heat > >9, Solar Oven > >10, Camp Fires/Stoves > >11, Etc. :-) > > > If you used a small low pressure vessel, say with alcohol as the fluid, > then it could even work from the heat of your hand. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:16:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24975; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:15:16 -0800 Message-ID: <00a901c06d37$e56e16c0$4078add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: Link to facts about water Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:27:15 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C06D0D.F96AC3A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y4wYq1.0.966.48JHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C06D0D.F96AC3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Found this. Isothermal clusters, etc... http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/ MJ http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C06D0D.F96AC3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
   Found this. Isothermal = clusters,=20 etc...
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/
MJ
http://www.geocitie= s.com/mj_17870/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C06D0D.F96AC3A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:25:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26571; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:24:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:24:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What eyeballs can do that plastic lenses can't In-Reply-To: <004601c06d04$6d4e03e0$547bccd1 asus> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ml9ME.0.0V6.2HJHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, Mike Carrell wrote: > The list grows. The whole visual system compensates marvelously for the > nominal optical deficiencies of the lens which forms an image on a curved > surface. One psychologist wore glasses which inverted the image. eventually > he compensated for this and the world seemed normal to him, hand-eye > coordination worked, etc. When he took the glasses off, the world seemed > upside-down for a while. I remember seeing this story from the original experimenters. They complained that everyone assumed that the world "turned upside-down" when the glasses were removed. If I recall, they said that the world was not upside down, but was something indescribable. (Maybe it would be like brain damage, having a stroke.) I was also disappointed to find that it only lasted an hour or so, even after wearing the inverting glasses for many days. Darn! :) Another eye mystery: I saw an article about the retina where someone had discovered that the relatively long photosensitive cells will actually TURN to face the lens. Block the pupil and provide an off-center light source inside the eye, and the cells will slowly turn and point at it like phototropism in plants or sun-seeking solar panels. At the time, nobody had the slightest idea of how they could do such a thing. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:40:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29732; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:38:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:38:19 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01c06d3b$1bb63d40$7e78add1 mikejohnston> From: "Michael Johnston" To: "h2opower" Subject: a fun fuel cell site Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:50:16 -0500 Organization: H2OPower MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C06D11.30D968C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"r1Rqt2.0.UG7.gTJHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C06D11.30D968C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.fuelcellstore.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C06D11.30D968C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/<= /FONT>
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C06D11.30D968C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 15:56:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00820; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:55:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:55:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:03:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Frying Pan Steam/Vapor Engine Resent-Message-ID: <"XCjrw.0.gC.mjJHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:30 PM 12/23/0, Frederick Sparber wrote: >An associate designed the Heat Pipe Stanchions on the >Alaska Pipeline. They use Ammonia as the working fluid. Those are pretty neat. They act as heat "diodes". I have put my head up against one when the pipeline was down for maintenance and heard it gurgle. You can't hear that when it is in operation because it the oil flowing sounds like water in a fast flowing creek. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 17:42:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20684; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:39:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223203751.00a2de50 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:45:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: Hemorrhagic disease in Kampala? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"MhJ902.0.635.6FLHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:05 AM 12/23/00, you wrote: >Thanks, Hank. It would also require manufacturing a corresponding amount >of decontamination equipment, in case they ever wanted to get unsuited. According to Jed, the British Ministry of Defense purchased a number of Hydrosonic Pumps some years back, specifically for the decontamination of chemical and biological warfare suits. I don't know how well they work for this application, nor do I know if the suit can be worn while it is being decontaminated, but under the circumstances, the idea certainly seems re-visiting. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 21:15:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24215; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:13:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:13:32 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223213036.00a163a0 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:16:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222113337.00c3b690 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OxnXR3.0.Gw5.yNOHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:35 AM 12/22/00, you wrote: >I recommend this screensaver. - JR > >http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,40801,00.html > >Seti: Is Anybody Out There? I'm writing this offline now for reasons which I will elaborate below. I think it was Horace who got me re-interested in parallel computing in general, and distributed computing over the internet with his discussion of the amateur earthquake preparedness group that was installing sensing equipment all over the globe, and reporting the data to a large number of distributed PC's for processing. The name of that group escapes me at the moment, and it is on another machine that I can't access right now, but I'm sure some of you will remember this. It wasn't that long ago. I did some reading on it back then, and like most people, I have also been doing some reading on broadband services, etc., and found some interesting projects going on using these ideas. The Human Genome Project is another example of a fairly high profile effort to harness the power of large numbers of distributed PC's, and there have been a couple of well documented Open Source Linux projects at the university lab level that have tied together machines that, by today's standards, would be considered almost worthless garbage, and made them a part of a larger system that was as capable in terms of storage capacity and computing speed as many mini-mainframes and even some super computers. According one of the articles that I read, which was a few years old by the time I read it, the only thing keeping the LINUX system in particular from being more widely used was the lack of programs written specifically to take advantage of the parallel and distributed computing ideas. On the surface, these ideas looks like they could be extraordinarily beneficial to mankind - people pooling together their computing resources to solve a common problem in a way that costs each member very little. Another thing that sparked my interest further was the fact that I was recently given a newer computer that had Win98 installed by my Dad. He bought it, and didn't like it because it was too slow. I looked at it, and originally thought that it may have been because it was never properly set up. I've been working on getting that squared away, but am still not getting the performance out of it that it should deliver. I've been using DOS 6.22 and Win3.1 on a 486 machine for quite some time, and basically decided to skip the whole Win95 fiasco after watching all my family and friends crash their machines and lose large amounts of time and data because the system was so buggy. Win98 was reportedly not only supposed to have fixed most of those problems, but it also was supposed to be much faster, and it would allow me to participate in some of these group computing efforts. My 486 machine running a 16 bit OS is still way faster than this machine though. I obviously had some work to do on this new machine to get it up to speed, so I started reading up on ways to get it to go faster. There was no way that I could be sharing files and computing resources at this speed. Unfortunately, my reading in the last couple of weeks on this subject and my own very recent experience (like a half an hour ago) have shown that having these abilities on your desktop can be used in ways that are not so noble. Jed recommends using the SETI screensaver, but what he doesn't tell you is that by doing so, you are opening up the contents of your machine to whomever is capable of using it. That means that your e-mail can be read, any business plans that you have on your computer can be read, other people's stuff can be stored on your machine without your knowledge, and your programs can be launched and used by other people. This can be done even while you are using the computer if you are not watching out for it. Microsoft has made it easier than ever for people to take advantage of these capabilities, and more difficult for people to turn them off or guard against any misuse. They have basically turned everyone's machine into a server using the MAPI protocols, whether they know it or not. If you are using any adware for example, you are at risk of being hacked, and many programs that you get "for free" either as adware or just as freebies have the capability of using these MAPI protocols. Even a lot of the stuff that you pay for has these abilities built into them. I just got offline after finding this out (once again) the hard way. On my old machine, I had all the video and audio players that I could get my hands on, and they all worked quite well. I was even using a webphone to call friends in Europe for a while and once had a long discussion with a kid in mainland China. It was great. Then as the industry evolved, the versions of the programs that I had became obsolete, and were no longer supported. I couldn't watch streaming video or listen to streaming audio anymore, or use the web telephone - not because my machine wasn't capable of satisfactorily handling the processing loads, but because the newer versions only worked on Win95 systems on up. The entire industry was insisting that it was necessary to use a 32 bit processing environment when I knew that it was not. When I got the newer machine, I immediately downloaded the RealPlayer G2 and was happy that I could once again surf and read my e-mail while listening to my favorite radio stations, which happen to be thousands of miles away, and thinking that this was great. I noticed tonight though, that the overall performance of my machine was slowing down quite a bit - even worse than normal. I thought, "Well, I've got a couple of extra programs running, I'll just shut down a program or two", but that didn't help very much, and so I just put up with it for a while. Then it dawned on me that someone else might using my computer, and so I checked the status window on my dialer. In one hour, I had received about 1 meg of data from my e-mail program and the G2 player combined, which is about right. I had also in that time however, been uploading without my knowledge or consent, 12 megs of my personal data off of my hard drive to somebody else. God only knows to whom or what else my machine was doing during that time. I logged off immediately of course, but God only knows what the contraption is doing right now for that matter. It is running much faster now, so I think I may be the only one using it presently, but then, maybe I'm just one of a smaller number, it really is hard for me to tell with this OS. I haven't had the thing long enough to get a good feel for how well it should perform with just one user. The point of all this is that personal computers never were very safe at keeping your data secure if you had a modem at all, but now with the MAPI protocol, even the use of your programs and processing time of your CPU is up for grabs. If you want to keep your data safe from prying eyes, you have to have a firewall, a firewall checker, a packet sniffer, a tracer, virus scanners, etc., and you have to be watching what transpires every second just like any good sysop does. Either that, or be prepared to lose everything - and believe me, I mean _everything_. Most hackers just want to get to know you, and what you have on your machine. Many of them are in business or in government, and just want to serve you better by finding out your true preferences, tastes, income, activities etc. by using these so-called "backend server" capabilities. Some of them might even be your friends, and are just playing around. If you are in business yourself however, and have competitors, or if you have any political enemies, or if you are the wrong color, or religion, or anything else and the hacker is of the malicious type, then prepare your backend for another kind of service. If someone ever hacked the SETI screensaver program, they would have access to the largest ready-made supercomputer and database in the world. It's virtually begging to be done, if it hasn't been done already. Happy Holidays! Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 23:15:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08564; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:14:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:14:33 -0800 Message-ID: <20001224071430.14581.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:14:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"2HDYL1.0.k52.O9QHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >However, my recent experience suggests that some CO2 will be released and this release will slow down as the solution becomes more basic. I suggest you check the pH before and after. If this is happening, the 104% and the 125% is high because of this extra gas. Indeed, recombination may be occurring with the deficit being more than made up by the CO2. Ed, I'm not so good at doing chemistry from first principles. Could you elaborate? And what is the corresponding enthalpy of the CO2 release and what would be the corresponding cell potential? As I see it, 2 electrons must be removed by some process(es) to neutralize a CO3-- ion into a CO2 molecule, vs. 4 electrons removed to neutralize 4 OH- into O2 molecule plus 2 H20. Therefore, the CO2 path liberates more gas molecules per coulomb of charge than the O2 path. What determines the relative rates of the two paths? I read, back when I was trying to learn some electrochemistry, that SO4 is very stable and never releases oxygen at an anode. Apparently CO3 is not as stable? ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 23 23:30:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10961; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:29:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:29:53 -0800 Message-ID: <01C06D38.5A936860 istf-1-46.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Off topic: cheap thrills for the holiday Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:30:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA10941 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jodd22.0.7h2.nNQHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [I tried to send this to freenrg-l, but it bounced. It's off-topic but more fun than ebola ;-] Just for kicks: this is not free energy, but it could be construed as a demonstration of some energy-related principles if you want to stretch it that way. One of Bill Beaty's recent posts led me meandering eventually to this website: http://www.scitoys.com/ Wherein there is a project for a toy "cannon". Now, my father needs nothing but is easily pleased, and likes gimmicks - and is also something of a pyromaniac. Having few bucks and little time to spend on this particular project, I figured a way to simplify this thing somewhat - into only 2 required pa rts: a butane barbeque lighter and a 35mm film "can" (plastic). The lighter should have a piezoelectric spark igniter. Mine operates with one trigger button, which opens the fuel valve and then activates the igniter. The working end is a metal tube about 3/8" in diameter. Take the lid from the film container, and carefully cut a hole in the center that is the same diameter as the working end of the lighter. You have now done the most complicated construction. Put the lid on the film can, and then insert the lighter into the can. It should slide on easily but fit snugly. **Point the thing away from yourself and other people - it's going to explode** Give the lighter's trigger a short squeeze, enough to squirt a bit of fuel into the can but not far enough to trigger the igniter. You need fuel in the can but not too much (or it will displace oxygen). Then pull the trigger quickly, to pulse the igniter. Or do it all in one smooth motion, if you've got the knack. If you got the fuel/air mixture right, there will be a loud pop and a bit of flame and the film can will separate from its lid and go flying. This is reasonably safe as long as due precaution is observed and as long as you don't get tempted to scale it up too much. I experimented with adding a 2nd stage and decided that's as far as I'm going to go - it gets much more explosive very quickly as y ou increase size. (2nd stage: cut a hole in the bottom of the film can. Wedge the open end of another one on the first one's bottom. Poke the lighter in far enough to fuel the 2nd stage, then withdraw it into the 1st, fuel and ignite). Have a fun (and safe) holiday! Dan Quickert (attempt at ASCII drawing of the contraption follows) lighter film can ____________ _____/\_ || | |____________||____ | __________________ | ________| || | ||__________| / | \ lid body bottom end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 00:30:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA20800; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:30:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:30:03 -0800 Message-ID: <013701c06d83$3d0a4340$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223213036.00a163a0 pop3.atlantic.net> Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:26:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"upBi91.0.w45.BGRHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael T. Huffman" To: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 9:16 PM Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" >>I had also in that time > however, been uploading without my knowledge or consent, 12 megs of my > personal data off of my hard drive to somebody else. A free program that has internet lock capabilities is available at: http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/partners/zonealarm/download.html It even has a graph that indicates downloading and uploading as they occur, with daily summaries of the same. Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 04:02:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA12454; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:01:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:01:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3A449B2A.852E90C0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 04:31:38 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: happy holidays Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E-59t3.0.W23.UMUHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dec. 24, 2000 Riots and bloodshed in India. Asteroid barely misses Earth. Sadddam Hussein still building a nuclear weapon. (could this be part of Park's WN Palladium Bomb rumor?) Just a few more news items to add to the usual 24 hour mayhem throughout the earth. Peace on earth and good will toward men. Happy Holidays Vortex, and everybody else! Best of Prayers for the New Year. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 04:11:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA13663; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:10:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:10:39 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001224064701.00a2aec0 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 07:16:09 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" In-Reply-To: <013701c06d83$3d0a4340$0201a8c0 m> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223213036.00a163a0 pop3.atlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yOAZl3.0.PL3._UUHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:26 AM 12/24/00, you wrote: >A free program that has internet lock capabilities is available at: >http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/partners/zonealarm/download.html > >It even has a graph that indicates downloading and uploading as they occur, >with daily summaries of the same. > >Regards, Michael Randall Right, and I've read that ZoneAlarm is one of the better ones. It would limit access to the few thousand people that knew how to get around it at least. I was thinking also along the lines of getting rid of IE and Windoze Explorer, Outlook Express, etc., in favor some of the alternatives, and then encrypting as much of the hard drive as possible. That way you could run a small shell, browser, e-mail program, and whatever viewers that you needed etc. while you were online, and the rest of the stuff would be unreadable, unchangeable and unusable to anyone who managed to jump through any cracks in your firewall. You could keep the key on a floppy, and take the floppy out of the drive while you were online. Any programs that a hacker left behind would probably stick out like a sore thumb, too. Anyway, before I put up any distributed processing "eye candy", I'm going to have to get a much better grip on my machine. Thanks for the URL! Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 09:49:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27824; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:47:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:47:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001222101942.00c2db58 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:47:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages Resent-Message-ID: <"Q3A0O.0.bo6.7RZHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> People have mystical ideas about logic and thought. Jones seems to think >> it is infallible. > >I get that strong impression also. ***{If that is true, then why didn't you quote the statement of mine from which you extracted that impression? Could it be that you didn't really, honestly, get that impression at all, but rather you are simply miffed at me, and want to hurl pejoratives in my direction? Why do I say you are hurling pejoratives? Simple: nobody but an imbecile would make an unqualified statement that "logic is infallible," and so when you claim to have gotten the impression that I believe it, you are insinuating that I am an imbecile. A "moderator" who slings mud. That's pathetic. For the record, I have noted repeatedly that logic, like facts, is not always clear, and that in the event of a conflict between unclear logic and clear facts, the facts prevail. Bottom line: your statement that I seem to think logic is infallible is tantamount to lying, and is just more evidence that you are in the throes of a moral crisis. What does that mean? Simple: it means you are face to face with a clear conflict between believing and doing what is right, and believing and doing what you want, and it means your resolution of that conflict will be a defining moment, where your character is concerned. Unfortunately, your growing disconnect with reality has already taken you to the verge of bald-faced lying, so the outcome at this point appears to be a foregone conclusion: your moral crisis is in the process of turning into a moral collapse. Once that process of transformation is complete, you will be dead inside, and attempting to be the best person you can be will be merely an unpleasant and rapidly fading memory. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >How can we tell if a logical conclusion is wrong? > >Do we say "logic was used, so the conclusion is trustworthy?" (That's >what I think Mitch is saying. ***{Same response as the above. You failed to quote any statement of mine which led you to "think" that. Why? Because I have never made a statement supportive of such a conclusion, and you know it. (The moral breakdown continues.) --MJ}*** >No, we check the conclusion against reality. If it doesn't match reality, >then we know that there is an error somewhere. We don't have to say where >it is. We are just certain that it's there. Its supporters can go find >their own error and correct it. ***{As I have said repeatedly, facts beat "logic"--which means: when the facts are clear and the logic is unclear, go with the facts. But, in the above, you pretend that I deny what I have repeatedly and publicly affirmed in this very thread. And that's pathetic. --MJ}*** >Is a certain phenomenon supposedly impossible? But if it does exist, then >it must be possible, and anyone who insists on its impossibility, or who >refuses to observe its existance, is not behaving as a scientist. ***{In the real world, neither logic nor facts are given to us. Instead, when we encounter conflicts between "logic" and "facts," our assessments must be based on *clarity*. That means when the logic is clear and the facts are not, the logic prevails; and when the facts are clear and the logic is not, the facts prevail. Such a procedure, of course, only controls our assessment at the time. As time passes and we clarify the logic and/or the facts, we of course hope that ultimately both will become clear, because we know that when that happens, they will agree, and the apparent conflict will cease to exist. However, at any given moment, based on what we know at that moment, clear logic beats unclear facts, and clear facts beat unclear logic. That's simply the way it is, and your insistence that a person who expresses and acts on such opinions is "not behaving like a scientist" is of no more significance than the sound of the wind blowing. The fact is that you are motivated by *personal enmity* in this discussion, and you are paying little or no attention to anything I say. --MJ}*** >They are behaving like a defensive debater who ignores reality in order to >defend their position. ***{Amazing. If that isn't blatant projection, then what is? Wow! For the benefit of any reasoning beings who might be out there, I'm going to elaborate a bit. The problem with "moderated" groups is that virtually all "moderators" want to be treated deferentially by subscribers to their lists. We are all supposed to hang on the "moderator's" every word and agree with him, or else make a few token arguments when his majesty speaks and then quickly run up the white flag, or else remain silent when we disagree. What we are *not* permitted to do is treat the great god-king from on high as an equal, and persist in our arguments until either his position has been demolished or we have been sincerely convinced of our error. The god-king wants to be perceived as smarter than the rest of us, and that will not in fact happen if we are not required to treat him with deference. This is *his* little pond, and he wants to be the "big fish." Thus non-deferential behavior is guaranteed to be punished. The result, in the Vortex pond, appears to be that the "big fish" wants to punish my non-deferential behavior by attacking my character. However, the only basis he has for drawing negative conclusions about my character is my words. Thus *my words* are the aspect of reality that is under discussion here. The issue before us, raised by him, is whether my words justify a negative assessment of my character. Unfortunately, when he responds directly, in context, quoting the words that he thinks justify negative conclusions, he places himself in a hopeless position, because it is a no brainer for me to simply point out what the words clearly and obviously really meant. With my words sitting there, plain to all, his attacks simply do not work. Result: seeing that attacking the words directly was hopeless, but being determined to attack my character regardless, he has simply adopted the strategy of deleting every single solitary thing I say. The benefit of that strategy, of course, is that it frees him up to concoct wildly inaccurate caricatures of my words, and attack those caricatures. Result: he can express his resentment of me by putting forth negative assessments of my character, and, because those assessments do, in fact, apply to his caricatures, he feels he has avoided the vulnerability that he experienced when attacking what I actually said. Bottom line: The purpose of the strategy he has adopted is simply to win at any cost, right or wrong, truth be damned. In his words, he is "behaving like a defensive debater who ignores reality in order to defend his position." --Mitchell Jones}*** They are behaving like Galileo's colleagues who >thought they could make celestial phenomena go away by refusing to look >through his telescope. ***{That's a laugh, coming from a man who has *flatly refused* to respond to the statements made by his opponent. --MJ}*** >If logic-based reasoning predicts that water cannot "record" its recent >thermal history down within its micro-structure, how can we know if this >logic-based prediction is trustworthy? WE MUST TEST IT! > >There is no other way. ***{This is not a discussion about "memory of water." It is a discussion about the so called "Mpemba effect" as put forth by Jed Rothwell--to wit: it is about whether, when things other than temperature are equal, warm water can freeze faster than cold. I have stated repeatedly from the very beginning of this discussion that I do not deny that warm water can freeze faster than cold when other things are *unequal*, and I have no problem with investigating the possibility that inequalities in the microstructure of the samples might have that effect. Let me elaborate. Water is a liquid, not a solid or a gas. A liquid is a phase of matter between the totally disorganized molecular arrangements of a gas, and the highly regular arrangements of a crystalline solid. Diffraction studies have demonstrated that in a liquid, small bundles of atoms, molecules, or ions--i.e., up to a few molecular diameters--retain their structural integrity for brief spans of time and move about freely in relation to one another. Result: it is conceivable that there might be some form of processing by which a sample of warm water could have its bundles massaged into a form that would freeze quickly, while the bundles in a sample of cold water were massaged into a form that would freeze slowly. Such a possibility, however, falls under the heading of "other things unequal," and, as such, has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the dispute I have been having with Jed Rothwell. As proof, let me repeat, for the umpteenth time, the following: MJ: "Other things equal, warm water *always* takes longer to freeze than cold water." JR: "Bzzzzt! Wrong. That's what people thought, but Mpemba and his colleagues tried to equalize all factors with pure water and the rest of it, and the experiment kept coming out the other way." Bottom line: once again, because you refuse to direct your comments at specific statements made by me, you are off the tracks, out in the woods, bereft of context, and talking about a fiction that exists only in your own mind. The question is, how big a jackass do you intend to make out of yourself, before you will begin to address your remarks to things I have actually said, rather than to things you *wish* I had said? --Mitchell Jones}*** >Mitch Jones, by trying to talk us out of the need for testing ***{Yet another reference to a wildly irrational statement that I never made and would never make, and which is merely a fiction existing in your mind. All it demonstrates is that, by refusing to quote the statements by me on which your inferences are based, you have abandoned the essential discipline that you need to defend against wishful thinking. By means of such behavior, you have essentially stepped into the toilet and hit the flush lever, with the result that you have joined Jed Rothwell in his preferred abode: the cesspool. --MJ}*** , seems to >not care what the truth is, and instead cares about defending his debating >position. ***{I will defend a position up to the point where I cease to believe it, and I care enough about the truth to avoid the type of immoral behavior that you exhibit. That means when, in the midst of a dialogue with another person, I begin to talk about what I think is the meaning of some of his statements, I quote the statements that he made which led me to believe that, so that he will be in a position to clarify, expand upon, reword, or otherwise defend those statements, if he chooses. I do that both as a courtesy to the other party, and as an essential discipline, to keep myself on track. You, on the other hand, have adopted the tactic of deleting every single statement that I have uttered in response to you, with the result that all of your arguments have been directed, not at anything specific that I have said, but instead at wildly irrational statements that I never made, but which you wish I had made. --MJ}*** Either that, or he seems to be avoiding responsibility for >debugging his own logic and determining the truth by comparing his logical >conclusions with reality. Instead he is trying to get everyone else to his >work for him by starting a fierce debate. ***{Any "fierceness" in this discussion is due to your determination to focus on alleged flaws in my character, and to your refusal to accept the discipline of quoting the comments that you claim to be criticizing. As for my wanting the assistance of others in debugging my opinions, that is a state of affairs to which I freely admit. The fact of the matter is that the real world is enormously complex, with the result that we *all* need assistance in debugging our opinions--if we seek the truth, at any rate. To that end, reasoned discourse is an activity in which people cooperate by agreeing to avoid pejoratives, and, within those constraints, openly and freely dispute about "facts" and "logic." The benefit of the process is that, by putting their forth their opinions for public examination, the participants obtain corrective feedback. The only people who get their opinions debugged for free are those who supply neither factual nor logical inputs to the process, and who do not pay for the privilege of reading the group. (And there is nothing parasitic about *that* behavior either, by the way: the group is set up with the understanding that monetary contributions are voluntary.) --Mitchell Jones}*** It sucks, either way. It's not >the behavior of an honest scientist, it's the behavior of an expert in >debate. ***{You should consider the possibility that you are not losing because I am "an expert in debate," but because you are wrong. I am reminded of a comment by Grandmaster Blackburne ("the Black Death") after a chess tournament, more than a hundred years ago: "I have never defeated a healthy opponent." In a similar vein, I have never won an argument because I was right, despite the fact that when I lose, it is invariably because I was wrong. It's real sad! :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** [Note: this message is too large to go out in one chunk, so I am breaking it here.] ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 09:51:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA27951; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:48:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:48:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:48:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages Resent-Message-ID: <"PEw0j1.0.fq6.1SZHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A [This is a continuation of the previous message.] >Mitch doesn't seem to get the fact that science runs by very different >rules and hidden assumptions than debate, and when compared to an ideal >scientist, an ideal debate-expert has despicable ethics. ***{The only despicable ethics that have been exhibited in this discussion are yours. --MJ}*** Debate contains >all sorts of wired-in dishonesty, such as the need to hide your strategy >from your opponent. ***{You can't "hide your strategy" from a knowledgeable and experienced opponent, because he will have seen such moves a thousand times before, and they will be transparent to him. For example, the strategy of snipping out all of an opponent's remarks frees up a dishonest debater to engage in a smear campaign, by attacking what he *wishes* his opponent had said, rather than what he actually did say. But it doesn't work against an experienced opponent, because such a person will instantly recognize what is going on, and will simply begin to pound away at the transparent inappropriateness and dishonesty of such behavior. Result: the dishonest strategy doesn't help you win. Instead, it speeds your progression toward a humiliating defeat. And worse, by deflecting your attention away from the actual substantive content of your opponent's remarks, you cause yourself to quickly forget what he actually said, thereby losing the benefits of corrective feedback as well. --MJ}*** Science requires that we EXPOSE our entire strategy >to our opponents, that we maintain enormous self-doubt ***{People who behave dishonestly always feel enormous self-doubt, but science does not require it. --MJ}*** , and that we try to >DEFEAT OUR OWN CASE. ***{Horse manure. As I have pointed out to you repeatedly, the best advocate of a position is a person who believes what he is saying. Thus reasoned discourse is most efficient at moving toward the truth when "devil's advocates" are not present, and when all participants are sincerely arguing in support of what they believe to be true. If you doubt that, then you would see no problem associated with a person, wrongly accused of murder, entrusting his defense to a lawyer who believed he was guilty. But, when I mentioned that to you before, you did *not* rush forward in support of such a position. Instead, you snipped it out of your subsequent responses, and behaved as if it had never been said. Result: it apparently disappeared down your "memory hole," like everything else I have been saying, and has by now been replaced by an off-the-tracks, out-in-the-woods, non-contextual, fictive misrepresentation of my views which exists only in your own mind. But, hey, that's what a memory hole is for, right? --MJ}*** >A scientist who hides his strategy is extremely defenseive, even evasive >and dishonest. ***{The rules of reason do not merely apply to scientists, but to everyone. That's why even a ditch digger or a plumber would be guilty of immoral behavior, if he were to conduct himself in a discussion the way you are conducting yourself here. --MJ}*** A scientist who doesn't constantly search himself for >embarassing blunders, and who thinks that others are responsible for >finding them, is irresponsible, lazy, and unethical. ***{I repeat: the rules of reason do not merely apply to scientists, but to everyone. That's why any person, irrespective of profession, who does not constantly search for mistakes in his belief system, is immoral. I would add that it is irrelevant whether a blunder is "embarrassing"--i.e., whether other people consider an error to be ridiculous. What matters is whether the view is untrue. Nor does it matter whether the error is large and easy to notice (a "blunder"), or subtle and difficult to detect. What matters is the possibility that the belief may be untrue--i.e., not in accordance with reality. All persons, irrespective of profession, should constantly strive to improve the accuracy of their views. As for your insinuation that I believe others are responsible for finding my mistakes, that is just more rubbish. I am constantly sifting through my belief system looking for errors, and changing opinions when I find them. The result, after 58 years, is that my errors are mostly subtle, of minor generalized import, and difficult to find. Because of that, I put forth my opinions in public forums, in hopes that those who think they see errors will point them out. However, just because someone *thinks* he sees an error does not mean he actually *does* see one. The error, in fact, may be his. Result: the cut and thrust of substantive debate is often required to determine exactly where the error lies. --Mitchell Jones}*** But that's only true >if the person is a scientist. What if he is not? > >In debate, you're NOT supposed to defeat your own case ***{In *formal* debates as practiced, for example, in law school, that is true. However, in ordinary language, which includes the usage in this group, "debate" is merely a synonym for such terms as "discussion," "argumentation," "dialogue," "reasoned discourse," etc. As such, it is possible (though not desirable) to argue against what you believe, and it is possible to debate against what you really believe. That's what it means to be a "devil's advocate," in fact. --MJ}*** , and you're NOT >supposed to damage your self-confidence by considering that all of your >premises might be wrong. ***{I have no idea whether some college debate instructors say that, but who cares what they say? The fact of the matter is that every moral person is constantly looking for errors in his belief system. Doing so is an absolutely necessary part of the process of moving toward the truth. --MJ}*** The purpose of debate is to sway your opponent ***{In formal, college debates, the purpose is *never* to sway the opponent, but rather is to sway the audience or the judges, depending on the method chosen to decide the "winner." In informal debates, the purpose varies depending on the persons involved, with some people arguing to impress an audience, others arguing to convince their opponents, still others arguing to defeat the truth, and a very few acting in furtherance of the truth by giving voice exclusively to the strongest arguments they know. (That's what I try to do.) --MJ}*** >and truth is only a side effect, not the goal. ***{In this group, the motives of those who participate in discussions are mixed. All of the categories that I listed above are present here. --MJ}*** In debate, you learn the >truth when your opponent defeats you ***{Structured, formal debates are not about the truth. In most cases, the course instructor tells you which side of the proposition you are to defend, and there is no requirement, or even an expectation, that you believe it. Thus to say that "you learn the truth when your opponent defeats you" is just silly, if structured, formal debates are what you have in mind. On the other hand, if you are talking about reasoned discourse--i.e., about substantive discussions in which the participants avoid pejoratives and give voice exclusively to what they believe to be the strongest relevant arguments--then, yes, you sometimes learn the truth when your opponent defeats your arguments. However, it also sometimes happens that in the course of the exchange you see something you haven't seen before, which defeats the argument you have been making. If that happens, and the logic is clear, you should instantly reverse your position, and begin to argue the other way. And if the logic is unclear, but looks strong enough to merit a closer look, you should bring it up openly, and see if anyone has the ability to make it work. Nothing about bringing it up, however, relieves you of the obligation to oppose it with every substantive resource you can come up with, until the moment when you decide it is the strongest relevant argument vis-a-vis that issue. --Mitchell Jones}*** , and trying to defeat yourself is >INSANITY according to how debate is done. ***{I repeat: such considerations only apply in structured, formal debates, not in informal debates, a.k.a. "arguments," "discussions," "dialogues," "reasoned discourse," etc. I would also note that I dislike your constant references to "defeating yourself," etc., because it suggest an excessive ego involvement in discussions. Reasoned discourse is not about self, or ego, but about finding the truth. When, in the course of a discussion, you discover an argument that defeats the position you previously held, *you* are not defeated. In fact, you have added to your understanding of the world, that's all. Granted, it is a common metaphor to describe reasoned discourse as a battle, and to speak of victory and defeat in such a context. We all indulge in such metaphors on occasion. However, it is important to recognize that it is not *people* who win or lose, but ideas. The people who participate fairly--i.e., substantively--in the process, all gain thereby, because their participation enables them to move closer to the truth. --MJ}*** Yet in science, you are >supposed to do your damndest to defeat yourself ***{A person does not defeat himself when he searches for flaws in his reasoning. He defeats himself, in fact, when he does not. And this does not merely apply to scientists, but to everyone. The fact of the matter is that every reasoning person establishes, within his own stream of consciousness, the habit of constantly criticizing his belief system. However, that habit alone is not sufficient to move a person efficiently toward the truth. In addition, you need to read and criticize the works of others, and, most importantly, you need to involve yourself in reasoned discourse--which means: in cooperative debates/discussions/arguments in which the participants agree to avoid pejoratives and to make substantive arguments in favor of what they presently believe. And the word "presently" is important: a reasonable person does not argue in support of an opinion for one second beyond the point where he ceases to believe it. To do so is in violation of the idea of reasoned discourse because, at that point, you assume the role of "devil's advocate." When that happens, your comments begin to impede the search for truth. That occurs in much the same way that a lawyer who believes his client is guilty will, by giving up too quickly in his search for exculpating circumstances, compromise his defense. --MJ}*** , and when others try to >defeat you, you are supposed to lower all your defenses ***{That makes no sense. By such rules, you are supposed to jump over to their side, and they, of course, are supposed to jump over to your side. But then everybody notices that they are on opposite sides again, and so everybody hops back again. And on it goes, with everybody hopping back and forth, forever, in pursuit of your ill-thought-out and undefined notion of "cooperation." In fact, the highest form of cooperation is reasoned discourse, where people avoid pejoratives and argue in defense of what they believe, switching sides only when they cease to believe what they believed before. The result of the process is that discussions move quickly and efficiently toward the truth, with all sides being given the most able advocacy possible, and no time wasted hopping back and forth in conformity to half-baked, ill-thought-out, touchy-feely, socially expedient nonsense. --MJ}*** , and give your >critics all your weapons ***{In reasoned discourse, your arguments are your "weapons," and when you state them, you give them to your critics. --MJ}*** , and behave like your own enemy. ***{More nonsense. When you state an argument in support of something you believe, you are giving a "weapon" to your critic, but you are *not* behaving like your own enemy. Instead, you are putting your belief to the test. He may find a hole in it. If he does, then he has done you a favor. And if, instead, he is unable to find a hole, then you have done him a favor, because now he is a bit closer to the truth than he was before. --MJ}*** That's how >science searches for truth. Scientists who won't do this are highly >unethical. ***{Your analysis of how science searches for truth sounds like it was pulled out of an elementary school textbook. It is long on hollow platitudes, and utterly bereft of useful insights into how the process actually works. In the real world, scientists argue persistently for what they believe, and pull every resource imaginable out of their bags of tricks before going down to defeat. And that's not merely a good thing, but a great thing: the search for truth is enormously difficult. Truth is elusive, and without sincere and persistent advocates who will grasp at every resource before going down with their boots on, many truths will be labeled as falsehoods, and abandoned. The last thing science needs is a bunch of weenie "scientists" who are eager to run up a white flag as soon as the first whiff of gunpower reaches their nostrils. Introducing pejoratives into discussions, of course, is a no-no. That is part of the process of evasion, and does not belong in science. (Though pejoratives can, of course, be used in retaliation against the persons who introduced them.) However, the persistent advancement of substantive arguments in favor of what one sincerely believes is the beating heart of science and, more generally, of reason itself. It is, in fact, the only thing that stands between mankind and eventual extinction. As I have said before, every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil. --MJ}*** >Mitch Jones would make a fine captain of a debate team. But if he's >supposedly a scientist, even an amateur, then the same behavior is >unethical. It is a profound corruption of "scientific integrity." ***{I don't know what labels you apply to yourself and I don't care, because all human beings, irrespective of profession, race, or any other labeling consideration, engage in immoral behavior when they close their eyes and substitute fictive constructs for the reality they are pretending to discuss, as you are doing here. As I have noted before, the only evidence you have about my character is my words. Result: if you are determined to draw negative inferences about my character, my words are the reality that you must focus on to do it. But you refuse to do that. Instead, you snip out every single thing I say, spin up wildly inaccurate nonsense that I would never say and that I explictly deny, and pretend that you are talking about my belief system. That's why your words, above, are laughable. You are transparently guilty of the unethical behavior which you attribute to me. --MJ}*** >Mitch, are you familiar with Feynman's famous paper on honesty in science? >The "bending over backwards" one? If so, what do you think of the >oil/bread analogy? Do you think that his level of honesty is for weak, >wishy-washy fools? In a debate, his level of honesty WOULD be weak and >foolish, it would be like a sickness. The enormous self-doubt of a good >scientist would appear as wishy-washiness to a debate expert. Science is >not debate! The ethical requirements are totally incompatible. Debaters >and scientists regard each other with the contempt and distain similar to >that of the members of opposing religious beliefs. ***{You are not Feynmann. This is not about Feynmann, or about his opinions. It is about your determined efforts to besmirch my character, and about the unethical nature of the techniques you are using. I am not a "debater" in the bizarre sense that you described, and your claims that you are a scientist are ludicrous, given the blatant determination to ignore relevant facts which you display. --MJ}*** >I thought you were a Pathological Skeptic, because I thought you were an >amateur scientist. I was behaving like an Aztec priest, one wh sees >Christians as disgustingly flawed Aztecs. But the disgusting flaws are >probably illusory, they are partly caused by a scientist (me) seeing a >debater (you) as being a corrupt, evasive, EXTREMELY unethical scientist. >But if you are no scientist, but just a debater... then everything is >fine! ***{I repeat: you are no "scientist" by any reasoned definition of the term, and I am not a "debater" in the twisted sense you cobbled together, above. The fact of the matter, obvious to anyone not motivated by the same resentments that are driving you, is that you have exhibited throughout this exchange precisely the same types of corrupt mental processes that characterize many of the people you describe as "pathological skeptics"--to wit: when you find that you have taken a position that you cannot defend with logic and evidence, you have recourse to the hurling of pejoratives instead. By the way, my wife and I are going to be out of town for a few days, visiting my mother. Thus, assuming that I have not been booted out of this group when I return, I will resume responding to your attacks at that time. To those who have the integrity to be deserving of good wishes, happy holidays! --Mitchell Jones}*** >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 10:05:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30275; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:04:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:04:38 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:12:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: polywater Resent-Message-ID: <"J18Fo1.0.uO7.sgZHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Since the water molecule is an electrostatic dipole, it seems possible, especially in the presence of a strong electrostatic gradient, to get a chain of the form: H H H H H H H H H H / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / O O O O O O O O O O ... \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ H H H H H H H H H H Where "/" and "\" represents a shared electron in the constituant H2O molecule, and "." represents an ionic bond. Such a molecule might be put together in a strong gradient, and in fact Bill Beaty may have already observed such a chain, or collection of chains, created from water vapor at the tip of a high voltage needle. Note that you would expect the hydrogen atoms in alternate units of the polymer chain to be at right angles to each other, i.e. lying entirely in the plane "out of the page" toward the viewer. A better drawing might be: H H H H H H / . / . / . / . / . / . O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H. ... \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . H H H H H H Multiple chains of the above structure could be weakly ionically bound laterally. It is an interesting question as to whether the covalent and ionic bonds might be able to swap along the chain, or even reach a kind of indeterminate quasi-state where each of the bonds is indeterminate as to type. Such a molecule might even be a weak proton conductor, with the H's being able to swap down the chain. This form of conduction might even form in an electrolyte, and would be distingusihed from the kind discussed by Bockris, i.e. protron tunneling from an H3O+ to H2O molecule, follwed by the rotation of the the H3O+ molecule, by the fact that no transverse magnetic field could be expected from the molecule rotation stage of the conduction. I guess it seems more likely that an O.H-O.H- ... chain would be able to conduct electrons, if the bonds are indeterminate. Since such non-Faradaic conduction is not seen to a large extent in electrolytes, the polywater chain likely can not readily form in electroytes, or if formed, can not conduct electrons, and thus the nature of the ionic and covalent bonds remains fixed. Just mumbling out loud. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 11:07:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05895; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:06:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:06:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3A463B65.D980B0EC ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:07:36 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status References: <20001224071430.14581.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z8xQr3.0.1S1.CbaHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >However, my recent experience suggests that some CO2 will be released and > this release will slow down as the solution becomes more basic. I suggest > you check the pH before and after. If this is happening, the 104% and the > 125% is high because of this extra gas. Indeed, recombination may be > occurring with the deficit being more than made up by the CO2. > > Ed, I'm not so good at doing chemistry from first principles. Could you > elaborate? And what is the corresponding enthalpy of the CO2 release and > what would be the corresponding cell potential? I propose the following reaction: CO3-- + 2H+ = CO2 + H2O where H+ is provided at high activity by the applied voltage. This is just the reverse of the reaction that occurs when CO2 is dissolved in water, although in that case, the product is mostly bicarbonate (HCO3-). The more basic the solution, the more this reaction will be shifted to CO3-- plus HCO3-. As this reaction proceeds, the solution will become more basic, i.e. the H+ plus OH- equilibrium will shift toward more OH-, thereby lowering the effective H+ activity and the production rate of CO2. In contrast, the similar SO3-- reaction occurs at a much less degree because SO2 is not as stable as CO2, thus a much higher H+ activity would be required. However, I suspect SO4-- can be reduced to SO3--, although I have not tried this. My observation is that a mixture of LiOH and Li2CO3 (about 0.1 M each in H2O) gives off CO2 when Ni is used as the cathode but not when Pt is used. Apparently, this reaction needs a catalyst and Ni is a better one than Pt. This observation suggests that Miles' claims for heat from K2CO3+H2O using a Ni cathode may not be correct. In any case, this problem needs to be carefully examined. Ed Storms > > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 12:26:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17142; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:24:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 12:24:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3A465E5B.434CCDBD csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:36:43 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: polywater References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q6Va31.0.mB4.8kbHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What then of the crystal lattice formed when water is frozen? Shouldn't THAT also conduct directly if your thoughts below are accurate? Curious, MJ Horace Heffner wrote: > Since the water molecule is an electrostatic dipole, it seems possible, > especially in the presence of a strong electrostatic gradient, to get a > chain of the form: > > H H H H H H H H H H > / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / . / > O O O O O O O O O O ... > \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ > H H H H H H H H H H > > Where "/" and "\" represents a shared electron in the constituant H2O > molecule, and "." represents an ionic bond. Such a molecule might be put > together in a strong gradient, and in fact Bill Beaty may have already > observed such a chain, or collection of chains, created from water vapor at > the tip of a high voltage needle. > > Note that you would expect the hydrogen atoms in alternate units of the > polymer chain to be at right angles to each other, i.e. lying entirely in > the plane "out of the page" toward the viewer. A better drawing might be: > > H H H H H H > / . / . / . / . / . / . > O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H.O O-H. ... > \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . \ . > H H H H H H > > Multiple chains of the above structure could be weakly ionically bound > laterally. > > It is an interesting question as to whether the covalent and ionic bonds > might be able to swap along the chain, or even reach a kind of > indeterminate quasi-state where each of the bonds is indeterminate as to > type. Such a molecule might even be a weak proton conductor, with the H's > being able to swap down the chain. This form of conduction might even form > in an electrolyte, and would be distingusihed from the kind discussed by > Bockris, i.e. protron tunneling from an H3O+ to H2O molecule, follwed by > the rotation of the the H3O+ molecule, by the fact that no transverse > magnetic field could be expected from the molecule rotation stage of the > conduction. > > I guess it seems more likely that an O.H-O.H- ... chain would be able to > conduct electrons, if the bonds are indeterminate. Since such non-Faradaic > conduction is not seen to a large extent in electrolytes, the polywater > chain likely can not readily form in electroytes, or if formed, can not > conduct electrons, and thus the nature of the ionic and covalent bonds > remains fixed. > > Just mumbling out loud. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 14:18:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03254; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:17:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001224171720.0079de00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:17:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Magnificent NASA photo of earth at night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PX0ae1.0.mo.TNdHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg This is beautiful, but also horrifying in a way. It shows the distribution of energy consumption and wealth. From space you can see the fate of nations at a glance. I once graphed the geographic location of every telephone exchange in North America. The distribution looked similar, except that newer exchanges on the West Coast covered more ground per capita. It would be interesting to graph Internet traffic geographically. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 14:28:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05044; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:27:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:27:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4677D4.59A6C976 home.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:25:24 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnificent NASA photo of earth at night References: <3.0.6.32.20001224171720.0079de00 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F21F7D1527B1433BC14E167E" Resent-Message-ID: <"DYRu22.0.fE1.-WdHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F21F7D1527B1433BC14E167E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed Rothwell wrote: > > ...the West Coast covered more ground per capita. It would be interesting to > graph Internet traffic geographically. > There are several such real time plots available on Internet itself search for Internet Traffic Graph. Regards, Hoyt Stearns, Phoenix -- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 --------------F21F7D1527B1433BC14E167E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="hoyt-stearns.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hoyt-stearns.vcf" begin:vcard n:Stearns Jr.;Hoyt tel;fax:602 996 9088 tel;home:602 996 1717 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 adr:;;4131 E. Cannon Dr.;Phoenix;Arizona;85028-4122;US version:2.1 email;internet:hoyt-stearns home.com fn:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 end:vcard --------------F21F7D1527B1433BC14E167E-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 16:38:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26534; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:38:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:38:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sS4wC1.0.WU6.kRfHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: >billb wrote: > >On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> People have mystical ideas about logic and thought. Jones seems to think > >> it is infallible. > > > >I get that strong impression also. > > ***{If that is true, then why didn't you quote the statement of mine from > which you extracted that impression? Could it be that you didn't really, > honestly, get that impression at all, Heh! I really do get exactly that strong impression. Honest. ;) I have no great need to defend my opinions. And I tolerate the opinions of others which contradict my own, without needing to attack them or "disprove" them. It is my impression that you think that logic and reasoning is so powerful that its conclusions need not be compared against reality. To use your earlier example, if a "witch" should come to Vortex-L and offer hard evidence of broomstick-flying, would you argue against taking the time to examine it, based upon your logical conclusions that it cannot be real? If so, then I suggest that you apply the arguments only to yourself, and simply refuse to personally examine the broomstick claim. Let the others on this forum do as they will, and don't try so hard to persuade THEM not to look. After all, we are all here to look at evidence for anomalies, not to explain it away and refuse to examine it. Well, maybe the broomstick was a bad example. To "fly" on a broomstick, you smear it with a folk-medicine based on belladonna, and.. um... use the broom as an applicator upon certain internal mucous membranes... PS, I see that you still remain a "mystery." Why? Simply an issue of privacy? Extremely private people are not excluded from vortex-L. It would be far better if we were humans to each other, rather than easily-demonized characitures. I'm sure that other subscribers would like to know more about you as well. Be a fallible human rather than a faceless "internet character." ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 17:51:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05191; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:50:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:50:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:58:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: polywater Resent-Message-ID: <"5dzq-3.0.1H1.bVgHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:36 PM 12/24/0, Mike Johnston wrote: >What then of the crystal lattice formed when water is frozen? Shouldn't THAT >also conduct directly if your thoughts below are accurate? >Curious, >MJ > I doubt such a chain could stay formed in a liquid due to the forces of Brownian motion, except maybe in places of extreme cold and high pressure, unless a strong electrostatic gradient is present to hold it together. If not present in the liquid then not much hope for the polymer to be in ice. I would expect the ionic bonds would be too weak to hold it together in a liquid. It would be interesting to look at the properties of very pure water in a very strong electrostatic field, especially the conductivity, and the conductivity and other properties of ice formed in those conditions. Perhaps very pure water could could form a strong electret if frozen in a strong field. Conduction down such a polymer would probably take an even more extreme gradient than that required to form it or hold it together. Still, it is an interesting muse that polywater might exist in some special circumstance, and may even have already been observed in a manner like that posted here by Bill Beaty. His method of creating threads from water vapor might be used to measure the conduction down those threads to a grounded water sink by simply putting an ammeter in series with the needle. It is also an interesting thought that a polymer of CO2 might be formed from CO2 gas in a similar fasion to polywater forming in a gradient in water vapor, and that CO2 based polymer would be capable of forming covalent bonds. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 18:01:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06890; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:59:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:59:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 17:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bill vs Mitch: "transparency" and the Flamer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y6HGJ1.0.ah1.3egHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{You can't "hide your strategy" from a knowledgeable and experienced > opponent, because he will have seen such moves a thousand times before, I find humans fairly inscruitable and full of unexpected creativity. Who knows what they'll do next! However, there is one sort of person who is transparent: newsgroup flamers. Their symptoms are always the same, just like measles or chicken pox is easily recognizable. I've met a large number of them over my years on internet. There are several famous ones in the FE/ZPE arena. Check out my "symptoms list" and I bet you'll recognize several people who behave just like this: NEWSGROUP FLAMING AS A MENTAL DISORDER http://www.amasci.com/weird/flamer.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 18:05:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07558; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Merry 'x-mass' everybody! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qt5K41.0.xr1.OigHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "X-mass": also know as "the "Death Star", a suspected massive object in the Oort cloud which periodically causes showers of sunward-bound comets, and may be the reason for past global mass extinctions of life on Earth. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 19:02:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15361; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:00:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:00:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3A46BB37.C948779A csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:12:55 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: polywater References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"smUzm2.0.xl3.aXhHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Ok, I see where you are going with it. I could mention that it might be interesting to test out the electrostatic or electromagnetic effect of a strong field on water vapor or steam. Faraday found that a magnet could affect either smoke or the flame of a candle, so why not water vapor? Of course the paramagnetic nature of oxygen is known to cause the water molecules in such a field to orient themselves "into" the lines of force. Faraday also looked at this with the inclusion of a diagram or two. MJ Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:36 PM 12/24/0, Mike Johnston wrote: > >What then of the crystal lattice formed when water is frozen? Shouldn't THAT > >also conduct directly if your thoughts below are accurate? > >Curious, > >MJ > > > > I doubt such a chain could stay formed in a liquid due to the forces of > Brownian motion, except maybe in places of extreme cold and high pressure, > unless a strong electrostatic gradient is present to hold it together. If > not present in the liquid then not much hope for the polymer to be in ice. > I would expect the ionic bonds would be too weak to hold it together in a > liquid. It would be interesting to look at the properties of very pure > water in a very strong electrostatic field, especially the conductivity, > and the conductivity and other properties of ice formed in those > conditions. Perhaps very pure water could could form a strong electret if > frozen in a strong field. > > Conduction down such a polymer would probably take an even more extreme > gradient than that required to form it or hold it together. Still, it is > an interesting muse that polywater might exist in some special > circumstance, and may even have already been observed in a manner like that > posted here by Bill Beaty. His method of creating threads from water vapor > might be used to measure the conduction down those threads to a grounded > water sink by simply putting an ammeter in series with the needle. > > It is also an interesting thought that a polymer of CO2 might be formed > from CO2 gas in a similar fasion to polywater forming in a gradient in > water vapor, and that CO2 based polymer would be capable of forming > covalent bonds. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 19:06:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16039; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:05:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 19:05:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3A46BC3D.FA186DB4 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:17:17 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merry 'x-mass' everybody! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P_FKc.0.Hw3.cbhHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hmmmm, then it seems only fitting that we celebrate this day to show our appreciation that X-mass hasn't come calling on the Earth this year. And I hope you have an x-mass free new year as well. MJ William Beaty wrote: > "X-mass": also know as "the "Death Star", a suspected massive object in > the Oort cloud which periodically causes showers of sunward-bound > comets, and may be the reason for past global mass extinctions of > life on Earth. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 20:14:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26245; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:11:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:11:40 -0800 Message-ID: <011a01c06e28$4e966440$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: One Terminal Capacitor Questions Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:08:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"zVpAN1.0.-P6.xZiHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, What do you think of Joseph Hiddink's HV generator design US4095162 is OU for it energy application, as he describes its operation here: http://keelynet.com/interact/archive/00000462.htm What would be a good source of ions for the gas discharge tubes? For 1 coulomb point (spheres) charges 1 meter apart the repeling force is: F = k Q1Q2/r^2 k = 9 x 10^9 N-m^2/C^2 F = (9 x 10^9) (1)(1)/1^2 = 9 x 10^9 N = 1 million ton force One sphere being fixed and the other rotates (each with 1 coulomb charge) , to then turn a conventional generator. If correct, it would seem to be OU. Is this possible? Features: 1) A 2 plate capacitor that turns into one plate. 2) The ionized gas in a glass tube being one plate and the outside of the tube is metal coated the other plate. 3) When the ionized gas is turned off a momentary pulse of 100 million DC volts can be generated (Pat. Lines 20-25, page 4). 4) "The Hiddink device ingenously combines aspects of the electrophorus, the Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier and the Van de Graff electrostatic generator... And it's all done with standard flourescent lighting technology." Observations courtesy of Michael Ady on jlnlabs. Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 24 20:46:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32416; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:45:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:45:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:45:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: The whirlpool is back Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"FFrM52.0.Pw7.-3jHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Someone posted this site on the SVP list. I don't have the astrophysical background to evaluate what he is saying about the motion of the planets. So I'm hoping that some of you Vortexians will check it out. http://www.coldpressure.com.cn Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 11:39:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07264; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:37:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:37:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20001225193706.13964.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:37:06 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"E9E-S3.0.On1.d7wHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are at least two big problems: 1. To turn the two-plate capacitor into a "one terminal capacitor" requires that one of the original electrodes and its charge be removed to infinity. This takes work. The calculation of the amount of work is a typical exercise or example in electrostatics books...No free energy. This is fundamental. 2. Hiddink's technique additioanlly requires that one turn a conducting medium, plasma, in a gas background into an incredible electrical insulator before the charge leaked off, while one electrode were removed to a distant location. No such insulator exists. For that matter, breaking an electric current in the face of high voltage is a most challenging scientific and engineering problem. Above about 100 volt the most typical outcome is an arc. The electric welding arc is an example. Breaking 1 MV is very difficult. Ask General Electric! Michael Randall wrote: > What do you think of Joseph Hiddink's HV generator design US4095162 is OU > for it energy application, as he describes its operation here: > http://keelynet.com/interact/archive/00000462.htm > > What would be a good source of ions for the gas discharge tubes? > > For 1 coulomb point (spheres) charges 1 meter apart the repeling force > is: > > F = k Q1Q2/r^2 > k = 9 x 10^9 N-m^2/C^2 > F = (9 x 10^9) (1)(1)/1^2 > = 9 x 10^9 N > = 1 million ton force > ............... Yep. This is the force against which you have to do the work to get rid of that one pesky electrode. No free energy. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 11:54:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12697; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:53:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:53:50 -0800 Message-ID: <005a01c06eab$ed2594e0$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 1 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"frMjv3.0.F63.DNwHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is some background on Hiddinks one terminal capacitor in regard to my questions. The below was posted to jlnlabs. From: Michael Ady Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 1:21pm Subject: Joseph Hiddink Patent I've read over the Hiddink patent, and just about everything about the device makes good sense. This thing should work, and as Hiddink claims, it should be routinely possible to generate voltages as high as a billion volts. Such high voltages are possible because there is no need for a gradual accumulation of electrons (with an attendant loss through arcing) as there is with a Van de Graff generator. The Hiddink device ingenously combines aspects of the electrophorus, the Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier and the Van de Graff electrostatic generator... And it's all done with standard flourescent lighting technology. The device is basically a flourescent light tube, wrapped in aluminum foil, and stuffed inside a enclosing metallic sphere or cylinder. The aluminum foil wrap on the light tube is electrically connected to the outer sphere or cylinder. (Elsewhere, Hiddink mentions the idea of using an old propane cylinder for the outer container. This sphere or cylinder acts as a single terminal capacitor. The single terminal capacitor is the seminal idea behind the original Van de Graff generator patent, and is very important here too.) Two power supplies are required to energize the device. One power supply must generate high voltage DC, preferrably on the order of 10,000 V. The other is used to ionize the gas inside the flourescent light tube. This second power supply could be either AC or DC. The use of AC would probably require additional circuitry to synchronize the device with the line frequency. A standard flourescent light ballast is an obvious choice here for the second power supply. The device is sequenced by first drawing an arc through the flourescent light tube. Next high voltage DC power is applied between a single pin on one end of the flourescent tube, and the outer wrap of aluminum foil. Since the gas inside the tube is ionized by the electric arc, it will act as an electrode. Also the glass casing will act as a dielectric, and the outer wrap of aluminum foil will act as a second electrode. So, while the arc is conducting, the tube will act as a two terminal capacitor, and it will charge up with electrons supplied by the high voltage DC power supply. Next, the high voltage power supply is disconnected (to protect the power supply from what happens next). Finally, the arc is broken, leaving the outer wrap of aluminum foil as a single terminal capacitor. Since everything is enclosed inside a "Faraday ice bucket" i.e. a Van de Graff style sphere, the excess electrons on the aluminum foil wrap will be expelled to the outside surface of the sphere, causing a massive increase in the voltage of the sphere. If the capacitance of the flourescent light tube wrapped in aluminum foil is say 0.1 microfarads (a small flourescent light), the charging voltage is 10,000 volts as mentioned above, and the capacitance of the outer sphere is about 20 picofarads (about 1' 5" in diameter) then the voltage pulse will be 50 million volts. It is easy to see, that with additional larger tubes, it should be possible to greatly increase the internal capacitance, without greatly increasing the capacitance of the external sphere. (The capacitance of a sphere increases linearly with the diameter of the sphere.) Billion volt pulses should be relatively easy to generate. There are just a few caveats. A standard flourescent light tube probably won't work. Elsewhere, Hiddink mentions having special tubes made up by General Electric. He also talks about the tubes having no "phosphor" coating. (I don't know if that's important.) He mentions the possible necessity of mixing in an arc "quencher" with the neon or argon gas inside the tube, to ensure that the arc will break quickly. (Again, I don't know if that's important.) I personally have one concern about the device. What happens to the excess charge inside the flourescent tube when the arc is broken? If it clings to the inside of the glass tube, this device won't work at all. If instead it is uniformly distributed in the gas, the device should work, but without quite as much voltage multiplying effect as calculated above. -Mike Ady Replies Author Date 10790 Joseph Hiddink Patent Michael Randall 8:07pm Message 10786 of 10790 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 11:57:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13167; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:55:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:55:27 -0800 Message-ID: <006601c06eac$2762f1c0$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: Subject: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 2 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:52:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"c0XVZ1.0.fD3.lOwHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is background Part 2 on Hiddinks one terminal capacitor in regard to my questions. The below was posted to jlnlabs. From: Michael Ady Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 5:51pm Subject: More Joseph Hiddink... details Someone wrote to me and asked me a question about the Hiddink invention that I'll paraphrase as "If the Hiddink device can generate a billion volts, doesn't the flourescent tube need to be able to withstand a billion volts too?" The answer is no, not at all. The whole point of the invention is that it will work with totally ordinary materials. You need to understand this to understand the invention. The tube does not need to withstand a billion volts (just 10,000 V, or whatever voltage is applied with the high voltage DC power supply). As I mentioned in my earlier description, the Hiddink invention combines three other inventions. My description was getting awfully long, so I didn't explicitly state the connection with the electrophorus or the Cockroft-Walton device. I thought the connection with the Cockroft-Walton device should be reasonably obvious, (in any case, it's not all that important)... the flourescent tube simply acts a single stage of a charge pump. The connection with the electrophorus is a little more obscure. While an electrophorus doesn't exactly work this way... it has this effect: Say you have a capacitor with capacitance c1 and you charge it to voltage v1. Now suppose you have some means to transfer the "entire" charge from the first capacitor to another capacitor, except that the second capacitor has a capacitance of c2. What is the resulting voltage on the second capacitor? Well, the answer is given by: v2 = c1 x v1 / c2 If the second capacitor has a very small capacitance compared to the first, then the resulting voltage will be very large, as it is with the Hiddink device. What the crux of the Hiddink invention comes down to, is "How do you force all the free electrons out of a large capacitor (the flourescent tube) into a tiny capacitor (the enclosing sphere)?" The answer is "Faraday's Ice Bucket". (Note that the sphere may be physically larger than the tube, since it encloses it, but its capacitance is miniscule in comparison to the tube's.) Faraday did an interesting but seldom mentioned experiment (with you guessed it, an ice bucket) that has profound consequences with regards to our understanding of electricity. So far as I know, Van de Graff was the first person to actually make explicit use of the effect, though electricity as we understand it would not exist/work without this effect. Suppose you suspend a metal bucket from a string, then charge a leyden jar to high voltage. What happens if you touch the terminal of the leyden jar to the outside of the pail? Well, basically some of the excess electrons flow from the leyden jar to the surface of the pail, so that the voltages equalize, and the total number of excess electrons on each object ends up being proportional to its capacitance. Now, suppose you charge the leyden jar again, but this time you hold the leyden jar down inside the metal bucket, and touch the terminal to the inside of the bucket. What happens this time? Interestingly, the leyden jar is completely discharged, and all of the free electrons are deposited on the bucket. Faraday did further tests with these two devices, and was able to show that free electrons are totally excluded from the insides of conductors and from the inside surfaces of hollow conducting objects. The upshot is that if an electron is deposited on the inside of a Van de Graff sphere, it cannot exist there. It is expelled (at almost the speed of light) to the outside surface of the sphere. The reason a Van de Graff generator works, is that the sphere at the top of the generator is a perfect electron "vacuum cleaner". As electrons are deposited on the discharge comb at the top of the belt, they are immediately conducted to the outside of the sphere. There are never any excess electrons inside the sphere, or on the discharge comb, so it can always accept more electrons arriving on the belt! No voltage will ever build up on the discharge comb to repel electons arriving on the belt! When you think about it, that's really cool. So this is the reason the Hiddink invention uses a Faraday Ice Bucket, or enclosing metal container. Once the tube has been charged, and the arc is broken (turned off) inside the flourescent tube, the tube is transformed from a two terminal capacitor into a single terminal capacitor. All of a sudden, the tube has a huge excess of electrons on its outside foil wrapping. That foil wrapping is also connected to the inside surface of the enclosing container and as such is part of the inside surface of the container. Excess electrons are of course totally excluded from existing on the inside surface of a conducting container. They will leave the inside surface at practically the speed of light, and will do so, regardless of a possibly emmense voltage that might repel them from the outer surface. They will be deposited on the outside surface of the container, and cause the voltage on the outside surface of the container to increase. Now, if the capacitance of the sphere is say more than 10,000 times lower than the capacitance of the tube, the transfer of charge from the tube on inside of the sphere to the outside will have a multiplying effect on the voltage, increasing it by a factor of more than 10,000. So the Hiddink invention uses the Cockroft Walton principle to store a charge inside a capacitor (which is also inside a Van de Graff sphere). Using switches, it converts that two terminal capacitor to a single terminal capacitor. It then uses the electrophorus effect to multiply the voltage as the charge is transferred from a large capacitance to a smaller one, and it uses the Faraday Ice Bucket effect to cause the charge transfer to take place. I hope this explanation helps. -Mike Ady Replies Author Date 10789 Re: More Joseph Hiddink... details Rick Monteverde 6:22pm Message 10788 of 10790 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 14:27:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11988; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 14:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 14:27:03 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Michael Randall Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 14:26:52 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006601c06eac$2762f1c0$0201a8c0 m> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"uchBu3.0.Ex2.scyHw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vorts, Your use of fragile fluorescents kinda scares me, and I'm fearless ;) You might check out: http://www.holman.net/rife/allredneon/The_RIFE_Tubes/the_rife_tubes.html as they, and others, can provide much stronger tubes w/ custom shapes and gases. Happy Holy Days :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 17:36:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06321; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:32:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:32:46 -0800 Message-ID: <011b01c06edb$40af5720$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <20001225193706.13964.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:27:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"y3MS43.0.hY1.uK_Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Yes, an electric welding arc would generate lots of electrons. What would be a good glass enclosed source of electrons that can be pulsed rapidly on & off? Did my later posts on the additional background information help explain Hiddink's invention? Do you think it could work as an OU energy device as the point charge repulsion example? What about its fusion energy usage's to create OU energy production? Regards, Michael Randall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schaffer" To: Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 11:37 AM Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions There are at least two big problems: 1. To turn the two-plate capacitor into a "one terminal capacitor" requires that one of the original electrodes and its charge be removed to infinity. This takes work. The calculation of the amount of work is a typical exercise or example in electrostatics books...No free energy. This is fundamental. 2. Hiddink's technique additioanlly requires that one turn a conducting medium, plasma, in a gas background into an incredible electrical insulator before the charge leaked off, while one electrode were removed to a distant location. No such insulator exists. For that matter, breaking an electric current in the face of high voltage is a most challenging scientific and engineering problem. Above about 100 volt the most typical outcome is an arc. The electric welding arc is an example. Breaking 1 MV is very difficult. Ask General Electric! Michael Randall wrote: > What do you think of Joseph Hiddink's HV generator design US4095162 is OU > for it energy application, as he describes its operation here: > http://keelynet.com/interact/archive/00000462.htm > > What would be a good source of ions for the gas discharge tubes? > > For 1 coulomb point (spheres) charges 1 meter apart the repeling force > is: > > F = k Q1Q2/r^2 > k = 9 x 10^9 N-m^2/C^2 > F = (9 x 10^9) (1)(1)/1^2 > = 9 x 10^9 N > = 1 million ton force > ............... Yep. This is the force against which you have to do the work to get rid of that one pesky electrode. No free energy. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 17:38:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06812; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:36:55 -0800 Message-ID: <011e01c06edb$da5b8ce0$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 2 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:33:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"hhm0q1.0.Gg1.sO_Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Chuck, Thank you for the URL! The trade-off is the capacitance is higher for a thinner glass dielectric. There would be protection if the glass tubes are inside a steel container, like the propane tank Hiddink mentions as a good Faraday "ice-pail" container. Regards, Michael Randall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Davis" To: "Michael Randall" Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 2 Hi Vorts, Your use of fragile fluorescents kinda scares me, and I'm fearless ;) You might check out: http://www.holman.net/rife/allredneon/The_RIFE_Tubes/the_rife_tubes.html as they, and others, can provide much stronger tubes w/ custom shapes and gases. Happy Holy Days :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 18:01:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09713; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:00:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:00:27 -0800 Message-ID: <018d01c06ee7$a11ce4e0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" Subject: Re: Free Piston Thermal Engine Diode (TED) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:56:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Coaty.0.hN2.wk_Hw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You called it right, Horace. Flashing a liquid to a vapor beneath a piston in a heat pipe and allowing the vapor to condense as heat is rejected at the upper end of a heat pipe constitutes a "Thermal Diode". Since the piston will vibrate due to expansion and collapse of the vapor, by being either spring-loaded, or using a weight to get a gravity driven flywheel-effect, it should be able to drive a magnet inside a coil to make a "Linear Electrical Generator". Since the best way to store the electrical output is using a bank of 12 Volt Storage Batteries the frequency is unimportant since it has to be rectified and fed to the batteries at about 15 volts (D.C.) at whatever amperage the unit will muster. I can envision a Thermal Engine Diode (TED) design in a tube about 8 inches in diameter and 24 inches long with an integral Linear Generator driven by the Free Piston. These can be set on a stove, placed over a fire, or mounted on a Solar Concentrator, and generate a few watts for battery recharge, or possibly a few kilowatts for immediate use on a 12 volt power bus. If you want to feed the "Grid", a D.C. to A.C. inverter will do just fine. With a little ingenuity and some scrap magnets and magnet wire, one might make one of these for less than $100.00. Or you can wait for Mills to perfect his "Hydrino" power units. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 19:58:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30322; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:56:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:56:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4819C1.892E4881 csrlink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 23:08:33 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions References: <20001225193706.13964.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> <011b01c06edb$40af5720$0201a8c0@m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3rf6e.0.cP7.fR1Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In answer to the question below; a television picture tube (i.e.: glass enclosed source of fluctuating electrons). MJ Michael Randall wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Yes, an electric welding arc would generate lots of electrons. What would > be a good glass enclosed source of electrons that can be pulsed rapidly on & > off? Did my later posts on the additional background information help > explain Hiddink's invention? Do you think it could work as an OU energy > device as the point charge repulsion example? What about its fusion energy > usage's to create OU energy production? > > Regards, Michael Randall > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Schaffer" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions > > There are at least two big problems: > > 1. To turn the two-plate capacitor into a "one terminal capacitor" requires > that one of the original electrodes and its charge be removed to infinity. > This takes work. The calculation of the amount of work is a typical > exercise or example in electrostatics books...No free energy. This is > fundamental. > > 2. Hiddink's technique additioanlly requires that one turn a conducting > medium, plasma, in a gas background into an incredible electrical insulator > before the charge leaked off, while one electrode were removed to a distant > location. No such insulator exists. For that matter, breaking an electric > current in the face of high voltage is a most challenging scientific and > engineering problem. Above about 100 volt the most typical outcome is an > arc. The electric welding arc is an example. Breaking 1 MV is very > difficult. Ask General Electric! > > Michael Randall wrote: > > What do you think of Joseph Hiddink's HV generator design US4095162 is OU > > for it energy application, as he describes its operation here: > > http://keelynet.com/interact/archive/00000462.htm > > > > What would be a good source of ions for the gas discharge tubes? > > > > For 1 coulomb point (spheres) charges 1 meter apart the repeling force > > is: > > > > F = k Q1Q2/r^2 > > k = 9 x 10^9 N-m^2/C^2 > > F = (9 x 10^9) (1)(1)/1^2 > > = 9 x 10^9 N > > = 1 million ton force > > ............... > > Yep. This is the force against which you have to do the work to get rid > of that one pesky electrode. No free energy. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Dec 25 21:29:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19870; Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:27:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:27:48 -0800 Message-ID: <019601c06efc$1bff3d20$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <20001225193706.13964.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> <011b01c06edb$40af5720$0201a8c0@m> <3A4819C1.892E4881@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:24:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"A0Qwt3.0.Ns4.Jn2Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, Yes, a good idea but need a gas discharge tube w/o phosphor coating, according to Hiddink's patent. Looking for around 1 microfarad capacitance or 20 - standard (USA) 4' fluorescent (non-phosphor coated) tubes. Is there a simpler solution? Regards, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Johnston" To: Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions In answer to the question below; a television picture tube (i.e.: glass enclosed source of fluctuating electrons). MJ Michael Randall wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Yes, an electric welding arc would generate lots of electrons. What would > be a good glass enclosed source of electrons that can be pulsed rapidly on & > off? Did my later posts on the additional background information help > explain Hiddink's invention? Do you think it could work as an OU energy > device as the point charge repulsion example? What about its fusion energy > usage's to create OU energy production? > > Regards, Michael Randall > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Schaffer" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions > > There are at least two big problems: > > 1. To turn the two-plate capacitor into a "one terminal capacitor" requires > that one of the original electrodes and its charge be removed to infinity. > This takes work. The calculation of the amount of work is a typical > exercise or example in electrostatics books...No free energy. This is > fundamental. > > 2. Hiddink's technique additioanlly requires that one turn a conducting > medium, plasma, in a gas background into an incredible electrical insulator > before the charge leaked off, while one electrode were removed to a distant > location. No such insulator exists. For that matter, breaking an electric > current in the face of high voltage is a most challenging scientific and > engineering problem. Above about 100 volt the most typical outcome is an > arc. The electric welding arc is an example. Breaking 1 MV is very > difficult. Ask General Electric! > > Michael Randall wrote: > > What do you think of Joseph Hiddink's HV generator design US4095162 is OU > > for it energy application, as he describes its operation here: > > http://keelynet.com/interact/archive/00000462.htm > > > > What would be a good source of ions for the gas discharge tubes? > > > > For 1 coulomb point (spheres) charges 1 meter apart the repeling force > > is: > > > > F = k Q1Q2/r^2 > > k = 9 x 10^9 N-m^2/C^2 > > F = (9 x 10^9) (1)(1)/1^2 > > = 9 x 10^9 N > > = 1 million ton force > > ............... > > Yep. This is the force against which you have to do the work to get rid > of that one pesky electrode. No free energy. > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 01:26:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA01882; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:25:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:25:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 03:25:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"atC4Y3.0.IT.ZG6Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Ed Storms wrote; >now available, I do not think the Senator would want to expend political >capital fighting for an idea opposed by leading scientists and the >conventional energy industry. Until the phenomenon has been demonstrated >to the scientific community to their satisfaction or until someone can >see a way to make money from the effect, a politician will have little to >gain by promoting cold fusion. In any case, it does no harm to try. Paul Wellstone is a true believer in the government's ability to make society better. The thing that is most galling to a libertarian like me, it that the "Minnesota Model" actually works. We are an island of prosperity in the middle of tall corn country. The agricultural economy is in the toilet, high tech, which has been fueled with government subsidies is giving us prosperity. In my opinion, what you have to convince him of, is not that the government needs to help, but the interference needs to stop. I'm waiting for someone to post something about the C F patent that Mitchel Schwartz was trying to get which was denied. That piece of intellectual property was important to someone. Then there is radioactive waste remediation. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 01:28:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA01909; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:26:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A465E5B.434CCDBD csrlink.net> References: <3A465E5B.434CCDBD csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 03:25:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: hydrogen power Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xf-SJ2.0.lT.fG6Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hydrogen power
somebody posted the website  http://www.fuelcellstore.com

I have a few questions for you Vortexians. Can someone tell me how many BTU's of energy are stored in a liter of hydrogen gas at STP? I am interested in the amount of energy that can be stored when H2 is stored in a metal hydride tank? Lets say a 500 pound tank. I assume that since a high pressure hydrogen tank would be impractical, as would a liquid H2 system. is this correct? I am also interested in the amount of electricity that would be required inorder to produce a unit of H2, say KW per say liter of H2.
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 01:33:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03041; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:32:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:32:27 -0800 Message-ID: <01b901c06f26$c8d1b1c0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" Subject: Re: Free Piston Thermal Engine Diode (TED) Condensate Return Pump Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:29:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KZG4t1.0.Nl.gM6Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rather than rely on gravity or a wick for Condensate Return to the heated Flash Plate, a centrally located condensate return tube that collects the condensate in the upper end of the TED and uses an "Inertial Pump" for pressure feed might do better. A condensate "catch basin" located near the cold end of the TED feeding a return tube that contains a mass such as a ball or plunger sitting on a small spring, should act as an "Inertial Pump" that feeds the condensate to the flash plate below the piston. Thus, as the piston and tube-shaft accelerates upward, the mass tends to remain in place, and should cause pressure feed of the condensate onto the heated Flash Plate. This adds another "moving part", but, should improve performance. Physics 101? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 02:39:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA14947; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:38:13 -0800 Message-ID: <01e901c06f2f$f7f8d600$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Btu Content of Hydrogen Gas Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 03:34:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"At5zw3.0.Tf3.KK7Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas Malloy asks: How many Btu's in a liter of H2 Gas? There's about 320 btu in a cubic foot, Thomas. Thus about 10 btu/liter. Rather than using a dangerous Hydride for storage, the petrochemical industry leans toward production of Methanol using the reaction of H2 with CO2 to make H2-CO synthesis gas in THOUSANDS of TONS per day: Biomass Carbon Plus Steam: H2O + Biomass + (Heat)---> H2 + CO2. The CO2 derived from biomass is "Carbon Neutral", i.e., it adds NO CO2 to the atmosphere. 1, H2 + CO2 ---> CO + H2O 2, 2 H2 + CO ---> CH3OH (Methanol) Overall: 3 H2 (6 ton)+ CO2 (44 ton) <---> CH3OH (32 ton) + H2O (18 ton) Other processes can convert the CH3OH to Acetic Acid (Vinegar) You can search the patent data bases for the art on these. MR. BUSH and "BIG OIL" are way ahead of you, Tom. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 02:51:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA16967; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:50:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:50:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:50:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uPaTB1.0.194.yV7Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Bottom line: your statement that I seem to think logic is infallible is > tantamount to lying, and is just more evidence that you are in the throes > of a moral crisis. Might you be mistaken about this "moral crisis? Maybe you can't read my mind after all, and my obvious moral crisis is caused by something I've not discussed on vortex. If you're certain, then you can continue with your present assumptions, and have no need to ask me if your information is complete. But if you aren't entirely certain, then you might want to get curious, and inquire about whether other things are happening with me currently. > What does that mean? Simple: it means you are face to face with a clear > conflict between believing and doing what is right, and believing and doing > what you want, and it means your resolution of that conflict will be a > defining moment, where your character is concerned. Not necessarily true: I could be in total denial, and not face to face with it at all, so that it becomes a hidden force which drives all of my actions and forces me to "project" all my conflicts onto others, but causes me no CONSCIOUS conflict whatsoever. > Unfortunately, your growing disconnect with reality has already taken you > to the verge of bald-faced lying, so the outcome at this point appears to > be a foregone conclusion: your moral crisis is in the process of turning > into a moral collapse. Once that process of transformation is complete, you > will be dead inside, and attempting to be the best person you can be will > be merely an unpleasant and rapidly fading memory. Very accurate assessment. Maybe the transformation was completed long ago, and the memories have long faded. But if a small chance remains for an alternate conclusion, then it's critical to devote lots of energy to working on it. E-ists serve as group-therapy. I've seen quite a number of flaming crackpots changed into amateur scientists over the years. There is major serious healing power to be found in these simple email forums. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 08:56:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA17481; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 08:53:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 08:53:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3A48BF33.9616AB7C ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 09:54:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources References: <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KJpae2.0.2H4.WqCIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > >Ed Storms wrote; > > >now available, I do not think the Senator would want to expend political > >capital fighting for an idea opposed by leading scientists and the > >conventional energy industry. Until the phenomenon has been demonstrated > >to the scientific community to their satisfaction or until someone can > >see a way to make money from the effect, a politician will have little to > >gain by promoting cold fusion. In any case, it does no harm to try. > > Paul Wellstone is a true believer in the government's ability to make > society better. The thing that is most galling to a libertarian like > me, it that the "Minnesota Model" actually works. We are an island of > prosperity in the middle of tall corn country. The agricultural > economy is in the toilet, high tech, which has been fueled with > government subsidies is giving us prosperity. In my opinion, what you > have to convince him of, is not that the government needs to help, > but the interference needs to stop. I'm waiting for someone to post > something about the C F patent that Mitchel Schwartz was trying to > get which was denied. That piece of intellectual property was > important to someone. Then there is radioactive waste remediation. I agree , the interference must stop. Dr. Ragland has been fighting for years to get his patent accepted including using his friend, Senator Lott, but without success. The patent office is apparently immune to political pressure. ENECO spent over $1,000,000 using skilled lawyers to get the Pons and Fleischmann patents accepted, again without success. However, some patents have been accepted in the field provided they did not go to the nuclear division. Apparently, the patent office does not even speak with one voice. I see no way to change the present situation short of a change in the attitude of respected scientists. However, if you think Paul Wellstone might add his influence, please make arrangements for us to talk. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 10:11:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08762; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:08:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:08:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A48DF40.3714A825 gorge.net> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:11:12 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: RE: Starting Over Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DZaC81.0.o82.uwDIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Mitchell Jones wrote: > For example, the strategy of snipping out > all of an opponent's remarks frees up a dishonest debater to engage in a > smear campaign, by attacking what he *wishes* his opponent had said, rather > than what he actually did say. It seems to me that you have used only select portions of what BillB has written, In these two posts you have written in response to him. Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? Would you consider showing the two posts to an uninvolved third party, who you can trust, and accept his/her opinion about this? Are you aware that substantial portions of these posts constitute PROPAGANDA? The following constitutes an egregious example: > As I have said before, > every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every > garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious > mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows > that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in > a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who > demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of > human evil. --MJ}*** > Would you consider asking the above mentioned uninvolved third party whether the above quote, among others, constitutes propaganda, and therefore has no place in reasoned discussion? Tom Miller ps, Have you ever used the screen name "One Who Knows"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 15:32:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21930; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 15:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 15:29:38 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001226181059.00c2d1e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 18:29:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources In-Reply-To: References: <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"up6Ox3.0.aM5.YdIIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >Paul Wellstone is a true believer in the government's ability to make >society better. The thing that is most galling to a libertarian like me, >it that the "Minnesota Model" actually works. Ha! At least you are willing to admit that it galls you! That's refreshing. I can never understand the ideologist point of view. If the Model works, and people in Minnesota are reasonably free, fairly happy, prosperous, and all the children are above average, why does it matter whether the model is libertarian, Japanese style command capitalism, or Christian socialism for that matter? Who cares!?! I am a pragmatist. Any real political and economic system will be a mixture of different ideologies and theories. Any real system will have internal contradictions, because society is made of many different people with different ideas and needs. The U.S. has never a "pure" capitalist system, or a pure anything else, thank goodness. It should be whatever system we want it to, it should change whenever we feel like changing it, and it can be different in different states. Why not? Regulation or deregulation, high taxes or low, depending on what we need at that historic moment. Modern government-centered Japanese-style capitalism worked splendidly from 1950 to 1990, and then it more or less fell apart. Was it a bad idea back then? No! Should it be continued as is? Of course not! It is obsolete. But it did work, even though it was nothing like U.S. capitalism, or the idealist versions of capitalism touted by people like Ayn Rand, which I think would work about as well as Soviet Communism did. Rand would deny our mutual dependence and empathy just as the communists denied man's ambition and his natural desire for independence. I do not trust idealized systems based on theories. I trust what has been proven to work reasonably well, and what the majority of people feel comfortable with, and what they will vote for. I fear perfectionists, altruists and ideologues of all stripes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 21:04:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03599; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:03:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:03:08 -0800 Message-ID: <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:03:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"2tg-42.0.3u.CWNIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > What would > be a good glass enclosed source of electrons that can be pulsed rapidly > on & off? Probably a short-pulse (ns) electron beam. > Did my later posts on the additional background information help > explain Hiddink's invention? Do you think it could work as an OU energy > device as the point charge repulsion example? What about its fusion > energy usage's to create OU energy production? Thanks for the posts, Mike. They really didn't add anything new to my picture of Hiddink's invention that what I had already gleaned from other posts on Vortex. You still have to move charge against a rising voltage, which takes work. This work is what makes the increased electric energy. There is no free energy in charging capacitors, moving the charges, moving plates, etc. Also, you still have to break (open) at least one conducting circuit in the face of rising voltage. In the specific case of a plasma serving as an electrode inside a Hiddink's glass tube with an outer metal foil: First, you have the annoying fact that plasma recombination is slow (ms). Even if you can apply technologies to speed up the recombination, it's never really fast. It's difficult. this is why opening-switchs are so difficult to make. Second, the recombinig plasma recombines electrons and ions in equal charge numbers. This eventually clears the tube of a good conductor (plasma), but is does nothing about all those charges that you paired equally and oppositely with the charges on the outer metal foil. Where are the inner charges? On the inner surface of the glass tube, an insulator that will take a very long time to discharge. Why are they there? Because, like all excess charge, when you charged the foil with respect to the plasma, the excess plasma charges expanded as much as they could, which is to the inner surface of the glass tube. In this example, the plasma is Faraday's (innermost) ice pail. Now, the glass tube with all the charge stuck on its inner surface eliminated the need of a fast opening switch, because since this charge is already on an insulator, there is no need to open anything. However, Hiddink wants no charge there. He somehow talks about turning off a plasma in the belief that the excess charge will disappear. Actually, that charge has to go somewhere. In the glass tube example discussed, the charge stays stuck on the inside. This is a good, favorable energy place for it to stay, unless it can find a path to an even lower energy state, such as through the glass to neutralize the foil charge. It will, over time, eventually leak to this lowest energy state. There is no OU in any of this. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 21:14:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05906; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:13:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <20001227051302.4246.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:13:02 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions - Background Part 2 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"fofjp.0.CS1.bfNIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Faraday did an interesting but seldom mentioned experiment > .... > Suppose you suspend a metal bucket from a string, then charge a > leyden jar to high voltage. What happens if you touch the terminal > of the leyden jar to the outside of the pail? Well, basically some > of the excess electrons flow from the leyden jar to the surface of > the pail, so that the voltages equalize, and the total number of > excess electrons on each object ends up being proportional to its > capacitance. > > Now, suppose you charge the leyden jar again, but this time you hold > the leyden jar down inside the metal bucket, and touch the terminal > to the inside of the bucket. What happens this time? Interestingly, > the leyden jar is completely discharged, and all of the free > electrons are deposited on the bucket. This discription is incomplete and misleading. The basic experiment is not done with Leyden jars. If you were to do it with a Leyden jar, which is just an old fashioned (two terminal) capacitor, it would not work as described, and in any case, you would have to tell where the second lead of the Leyden jar was to be connected. The basic Faraday ice pail experiment is done with e.g. a charged sphere on the end of an insulating wand. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 22:16:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22130; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:13:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:13:51 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01c06fcc$9a407160$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: Magnificent NASA photo of earth at night Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:16:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"c3Hv61.0.iP5.VYOIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >See: > >http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg > >This is beautiful, but also horrifying in a way. It shows the distribution >of energy consumption and wealth. From space you can see the fate of >nations at a glance. When I saw that, the same thought occurred to me. The truth is America and western Europe are the most productive, free, enlightened cultures the human race has known. Let others learn from us, and become bright too. If any socialists decide to attempt to equalize things, they may get a bigger and brighter flash than they bargained for 8^) I can't explain India though. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 22:21:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23623; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:19:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:19:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001226181059.00c2d1e8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001226181059.00c2d1e8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:19:15 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"9d1fS.0.1n5.udOIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - > I fear perfectionists, altruists and ideologues of all stripes. So you're a Libertarian? ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 23:05:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA02747; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:03:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:03:57 -0800 Message-ID: <026301c06fdb$3311cf20$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: 3M to Phase Out Perfluorooctanyl Sulfonate Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:59:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F97.DD4E1280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Nxxc.0.lg.SHPIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F97.DD4E1280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F97.DD4E1280 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="3M to Phase Out Perfluorooctanyl Sulfonate.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="3M to Phase Out Perfluorooctanyl Sulfonate.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm Modified=401644DBDA6FC0017F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F97.DD4E1280-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 23:05:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA02774; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:03:58 -0800 Message-ID: <026401c06fdb$34384dc0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Feeling Good? Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:01:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06F98.1D2D6400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hi0RQ.0.Gh.UHPIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06F98.1D2D6400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check this out. http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06F98.1D2D6400 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Untitled Document.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Untitled Document.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm Modified=E00F3A00DB6FC00134 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C06F98.1D2D6400-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Dec 26 23:51:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10823; Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0800 Message-ID: <027d01c06fe1$a87a83a0$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: 3M Scotchgard Carpet Protection Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:47:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F9E.8F580480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"zk2AM3.0.1f2.lyPIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F9E.8F580480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you need by the square yard. http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F9E.8F580480 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Scotchgard Carpet Protection.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.mmm.com/carpet/ Modified=603DA559E16FC001AC ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C06F9E.8F580480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 00:25:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA16846; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:23:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:23:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001226181059.00c2d1e8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20001218143637.03966090 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20001219073635.03960940 earthtech.org> <3A3F79BC.7738170C ix.netcom.com> <3A40C070.6A7B57CD ix.netcom.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001226181059.00c2d1e8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:23:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Suppression of anomalous energy sources Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"XwJGl2.0.874.ASQIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote; > >I can never understand the ideologist point of view. If the Model >works, and people in Minnesota are reasonably free, fairly happy, >prosperous, and all the children are above average, why does it >matter whether the model is libertarian, Japanese style According to Libertarian economic theory we should be broke, that's why. Minnesota is a great place to be poor, but if you are making money the tax bite sucks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 03:35:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA16629; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:34:20 -0800 Message-ID: <004701c06ffa$1789fc40$4892cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: References: Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:42:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ftrpM.0.f34.yETIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No - The dog got the bones !! happy Christmas and new year to all on Vortex, ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner To: Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) > At 11:13 AM 12/19/0, Noel Whitney wrote: > >Horace - There was a program on tv about 1 year ago ( Poss. BBC ) which > >indeed showed an experiment which was a Full Pigs corpse and "Wicking" was > >stated as the cause. It looked very convincing but who knows?.Sorry I cannot > >remember the date -perhaps it also appeared on Nat. Geographic - it seems > >like their kind of thing ; > > > Interresting! Do you recall if the bones were reduced to powder? If not, > the test was negative for SHC (Spontaneous Ham Combustion.) > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 06:52:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19571; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:49:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:49:06 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Noel Whitney Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:48:52 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004701c06ffa$1789fc40$4892cbc1 pc> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"WrUJ1.0.jn4.X5WIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27-Dec-00, Noel Whitney, wrote: >No - The dog got the bones !! happy Christmas and new year to all on Vortex, No - Dogs love steak! All we give them is the bones :) Happy Holy Days :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 07:49:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00500; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 07:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 07:47:37 -0800 Message-ID: <018201c0701d$79236860$4892cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: References: <3A465E5B.434CCDBD@csrlink.net> Subject: Re: hydrogen power Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:53:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017F_01C0701D.2E973D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fq9MX1.0.f7.PyWIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017F_01C0701D.2E973D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hydrogen powerThomas - I have allways used 350 BTu per cu.ft ,divide by = 28.3 ( Ltrs in a cu. ft) and you have it - happy Christmas - from = Ireland . ----- Original Message -----=20 From: thomas malloy=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: hydrogen power somebody posted the website http://www.fuelcellstore.com I have a few questions for you Vortexians. Can someone tell me how = many BTU's of energy are stored in a liter of hydrogen gas at STP? I am = interested in the amount of energy that can be stored when H2 is stored = in a metal hydride tank? Lets say a 500 pound tank. I assume that since = a high pressure hydrogen tank would be impractical, as would a liquid H2 = system. is this correct? I am also interested in the amount of = electricity that would be required inorder to produce a unit of H2, say = KW per say liter of H2. ------=_NextPart_000_017F_01C0701D.2E973D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hydrogen power
Thomas - I have allways used 350 BTu = per cu.ft=20 ,divide by 28.3 ( Ltrs in a cu. ft) and you have it - happy Christmas - = from=20 Ireland .
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 thomas malloy
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, = 2000 9:25=20 AM
Subject: hydrogen power

somebody posted the website  http://www.fuelcellstore.com

I have a few questions for you Vortexians. = Can=20 someone tell me how many BTU's of energy are stored in a liter of = hydrogen gas=20 at STP? I am interested in the amount of energy that can be stored = when H2 is=20 stored in a metal hydride tank? Lets say a 500 pound tank. I assume = that since=20 a high pressure hydrogen tank would be impractical, as would a liquid = H2=20 system. is this correct? I am also interested in the amount of = electricity=20 that would be required inorder to produce a unit of H2, say KW per say = liter=20 of H2.
------=_NextPart_000_017F_01C0701D.2E973D80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 08:15:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09684; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:12:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:12:58 -0800 Message-ID: <058201c07027$e3cef300$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: PFOS Threat Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:10:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pvs0B1.0.EN2.AKXIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Group, Check these out. http://www.mmm.com/carpet http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm Regards, FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 09:56:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10116; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:53:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:53:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001227123121.009e7900 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 12:59:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: PFOS Threat In-Reply-To: <058201c07027$e3cef300$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xc8CY2.0.-T2.PoYIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:10 PM 12/27/00, you wrote: > The Group, Check these out. > > http://www.mmm.com/carpet > > http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html > > http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm > > http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm > >Regards, FJS Ahoy Fred! I'm glad to see that 3M is phasing this stuff out after 40 years. It also looks like if you steam clean your carpet enough, that you might have a pretty good chance of getting it out of your house without replacing the carpet. That would, of course, depend on how much PFOS is in the interior wall paint and fabrics of your other stuff like furniture and clothing. The same steam treatment could be used on the fabric stuff to a large degree, but I don't know how you would get it out of the paint. My Mom used to spray that stuff on everything (including us kids a couple of times!), but then, she is from the generation that bought into that mentality in a really big way. Anyway, I hope that the testing procedures for new products has improved since the 60's, and I'm sure that it has. The latest Starlink corn fiasco kind of shows the discovery/reaction time for harmful products is much shorter than it used to be. You really have to be on the watch for that sort of thing. I'm kind of wondering if the respiratory problem is exacerbated by that in combination with electrostatic air cleaners. I have a great deal of breathing problems every time I am in an airplane or any large office building, and I would think that ScotchGuard would be very heavily used in both those places as a matter of routine custodial maintenance. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 10:21:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17228; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:18:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:18:40 -0800 Message-ID: <05f501c07039$7560d160$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001227123121.009e7900 pop3.atlantic.net> Subject: Re: PFOS Threat Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:15:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"pcReY1.0.6D4.0AZIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Huffman To: Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: PFOS Threat Hi Knuke, I had one large carpet area steam cleaned last week. The carpet service said it would take at least three cleanings to get rid of the chemical compounds. I the interim I'm in isolation in a cozy room that has 35 year-old 501 Nylon. I feel much better,but I'm getting cabin fever. :-) Best, Frederick > At 12:10 PM 12/27/00, you wrote: > > > The Group, Check these out. > > > > http://www.mmm.com/carpet > > > > http://www.3m.com/profile/pressbox/fluorochem.html > > > > http://www.fluoridealert.org/perfluor.htm > > > > http://www.ithacatoday.com/living_062900browne.shtm > > > >Regards, FJS > > Ahoy Fred! > > I'm glad to see that 3M is phasing this stuff out after 40 years. It also > looks like if you steam clean your carpet enough, that you might have a > pretty good chance of getting it out of your house without replacing the > carpet. That would, of course, depend on how much PFOS is in the interior > wall paint and fabrics of your other stuff like furniture and > clothing. The same steam treatment could be used on the fabric stuff to a > large degree, but I don't know how you would get it out of the paint. My > Mom used to spray that stuff on everything (including us kids a couple of > times!), but then, she is from the generation that bought into that > mentality in a really big way. > > Anyway, I hope that the testing procedures for new products has improved > since the 60's, and I'm sure that it has. The latest Starlink corn fiasco > kind of shows the discovery/reaction time for harmful products is much > shorter than it used to be. You really have to be on the watch for that > sort of thing. I'm kind of wondering if the respiratory problem is > exacerbated by that in combination with electrostatic air cleaners. I have > a great deal of breathing problems every time I am in an airplane or any > large office building, and I would think that ScotchGuard would be very > heavily used in both those places as a matter of routine custodial maintenance. > > Knuke > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 11:31:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07423; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:29:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:29:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A48DF40.3714A825 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:27:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Starting Over Resent-Message-ID: <"I78Cb2.0.qp1.KCaIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >> For example, the strategy of snipping out >> all of an opponent's remarks frees up a dishonest debater to engage in a >> smear campaign, by attacking what he *wishes* his opponent had said, rather >> than what he actually did say. > >It seems to me that you have used only select portions of what BillB >has written, In these two posts you have written in response to him. > >Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the >exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? ***{When a message is threatening to get large, I snip material that seems irrelevant or repetitious, to try to trim back to a reasonable size. Needless to say, that is a judgment call, and so if you think I have snipped out something that is important, I suggest that you copy that material into a message, and explain to me why you think I should focus on it. I will then post up a reply. Fair enough? --MJ}*** >Would you consider showing the two posts to an uninvolved third >party, who you can trust, and accept his/her opinion about this? ***{If this were a dispute about property, the proper way to resolve it would be to make up a list of everyone who is willing to sit as arbiter in the the dispute. Bill and I would then take turns checking a third of the names off the list (rounded to the nearest whole number) until only one name remained, and that person would then sit in judgment as we presented our cases, and would hand down a decision. However, this is a dispute about ideas, not a dispute about property, with the result that such a procedure would be pointless. There is no property to be transferred, and hence there is no action that an arbiter can take to change anything. Bill and I will either eventually agree, or we will agree to disagree, irrespective of any decision a third party might make. So what would be the point? --MJ}*** >Are you aware that substantial portions of these posts constitute >PROPAGANDA? > >The following constitutes an egregious example: > >> As I have said before, >> every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every >> garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious >> mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows >> that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in >> a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who >> demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of >> human evil. --MJ}*** ***{"Propaganda" refers to the precepts, principles, or doctrines used in the recruitment activities of an organization, or by the leaders of a mass movement. Therefore, what is the name of the organization or mass movement in favor of reasoned discourse? (Inquiring minds want to know! :-) --MJ}*** >Would you consider asking the above mentioned uninvolved third >party whether the above quote, among others, constitutes >propaganda, and therefore has no place in reasoned discussion? ***{I repeat: what would be the point? No property is involved in this dispute, and so the decision of an arbiter would change nothing: Bill and I, after the decision was rendered, would either agree or disagree, depending on the logic and evidence presented, and our own personal, private, internal assessments of that logic and evidence--which is precisely the same thing that will happen if the dispute continues *without* an arbiter being present. --MJ}*** >Tom Miller > >ps, Have you ever used the screen name "One Who Knows"? ***{Nope. Never heard of it. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 11:39:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09808; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:37:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:37:04 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:44:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"1SAa1.0.2P2.VJaIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:42 AM 12/27/0, Noel Whitney wrote: >No - The dog got the bones !! happy Christmas and new year to all on Vortex, Thanks for the info. So, the experiment was negative then, it discounts wicking as an explanation for the various cases where bones were fully consumed to ash. Photographic evidence exists for some of those cases, in addition to affidavits, police records, etc. Wicking is also clearly not an explanation for the two known cases where combustion began subcutaneously. I think those victims are still alive. SOME CORRECTIONS I wrote: "The question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a robust ou solution will be found by investigating USP, or any other regimes? I say the answer is clearly yes. Aside from all the relatively small heat results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson, Piantelli, Griggs, Case, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the natural phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out foremost in my mind as justification for that position." In looking back at this ot osd now clear that once again I did not clearly express my thoughts. The word "robust" above should be underlined bold italic! Though I think the evidence for CF is countinually getting stronger, and has long been far more credible than that for Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC), the best evidence that the effect can be obtained in a ROBUST manner may lie with SHC, and there may be clues there for how to obtain more than laboratory curiosities. Also, I should not have included Claytor in the off-the-top-of-the-head list, because his work is centered on anomalous (medium energy) nuclear reactions, not excess heat. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 13:15:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12435; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:08:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:08:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:07:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"IxEFM2.0.D23.TfbIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 11:13 AM 12/19/0, Noel Whitney wrote: >>Horace - There was a program on tv about 1 year ago ( Poss. BBC ) which >>indeed showed an experiment which was a Full Pigs corpse and "Wicking" was >>stated as the cause. It looked very convincing but who knows?.Sorry I cannot >>remember the date -perhaps it also appeared on Nat. Geographic - it seems >>like their kind of thing ; > > >Interresting! Do you recall if the bones were reduced to powder? If not, >the test was negative for SHC (Spontaneous Ham Combustion.) ***{The bones of a pig are much more dense than the bones of a human, and the bones of a young human are much more dense than the bones of an elderly human. Result: it is entirely plausible that the bones of an elderly human might be reduced to powder by the wicking effect, while the bones of a pig would not. --MJ}*** >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 17:22:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13704; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:19:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:19:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:27:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"oGZBw.0.2M3.BKfIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:07 PM 12/27/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The bones of a pig are much more dense than the bones of a human, and >the bones of a young human are much more dense than the bones of an elderly >human. Result: it is entirely plausible that the bones of an elderly human >might be reduced to powder by the wicking effect, while the bones of a pig >would not. --MJ}*** > Why is it then that the bones of the elderly are not reduced to a powder when they are cremated? Big gas burners are much more effective than a "wick." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 17:31:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16048; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:26:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:26:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4A974B.A16277D1 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:28:43 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: RE: Starting Over Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CbMcc1.0.bw3.5RfIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: > >Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the > >exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? To which you replied: > > ***{When a message is threatening to get large, I snip material that seems > irrelevant or repetitious, to try to trim back to a reasonable size. > Needless to say, that is a judgment call,... He snips, I snip, you snip. How much, and what, we all snip is, as you say, a "judgment call." Does it not seem reasonable to assume that someone else who snips has no different motive than the motive that you have when you snip? > ***{If this were a dispute about property,..... Actually, I had mistakenly inferred that you might be unaware that you practice the snip, as does almost everyone else. I apologize for having misunderstood. > ***{"Propaganda" refers to the precepts, principles, or doctrines used in > the recruitment activities of an organization, or by the leaders of a mass > movement. This seems to me to be a highly idiosyncratic definition of "propaganda." I meant the common dictionary definitions: (from Mirriam-Webster online) http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary 2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person 3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect I strongly believe that the following quote: >> As I have said before, >> every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every >> garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious >> mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows >> that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in >> a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who >> demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of >> human evil. --MJ}*** fits the above definition precisely; that it is an attempt to "injure..." "a person..." specifically, BillB. It does not seem reasonable, to me, to use such a blatant propaganda technique in what should be a reasoned discussion. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 19:36:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24504; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:33:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:33:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4AB73E.B07D70CF csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:45:03 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: an interesting site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EbQWE2.0.j-5.hHhIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.atlantic.net/~elifritz/masterframe.htm Mj From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 19:37:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25315; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:35:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4AB7CF.E59027AA csrlink.net> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:47:27 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: hydrogen power References: <3A465E5B.434CCDBD@csrlink.net> <018201c0701d$79236860$4892cbc1@pc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lu4P91.0.OB6.jJhIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: if you use 62,000 BTU/LB it is like 12.38 BTU to the liter if the weight of one liter of H2 at STP is .09 gm mj Noel Whitney wrote: > Thomas - I have allways used 350 BTu per cu.ft ,divide by 28.3 ( Ltrs > in a cu. ft) and you have it - happy Christmas - from Ireland . > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: thomas malloy > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:25 AM > Subject: hydrogen power > somebody posted the website http://www.fuelcellstore.com I > have a few questions for you Vortexians. Can someone tell me > how many BTU's of energy are stored in a liter of hydrogen > gas at STP? I am interested in the amount of energy that can > be stored when H2 is stored in a metal hydride tank? Lets > say a 500 pound tank. I assume that since a high pressure > hydrogen tank would be impractical, as would a liquid H2 > system. is this correct? I am also interested in the amount > of electricity that would be required inorder to produce a > unit of H2, say KW per say liter of H2. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 21:14:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26364; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:12:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:12:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:32:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"2NHfH3.0.rR6.dkiIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 3:07 PM 12/27/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The bones of a pig are much more dense than the bones of a human, and >>the bones of a young human are much more dense than the bones of an elderly >>human. Result: it is entirely plausible that the bones of an elderly human >>might be reduced to powder by the wicking effect, while the bones of a pig >>would not. --MJ}*** >> > > >Why is it then that the bones of the elderly are not reduced to a powder >when they are cremated? Big gas burners are much more effective than a >"wick." ***{I researched the topic of cremation roughly 12 years ago in connection with a lengthy debate-by-mail that I had with a fellow who was bent on denying the Holocaust. At that time, I read up on the subject, and also talked to several crematory workers. What I learned was that in a normal cremation, the vastly greater part of a human skeleton is, in fact, reduced to powder. Moreover, that which remains tends to be very brittle and easily crumbled up. The reason the process is terminated at that point is that it simply isn't cost effective to continue blasting away when very little extended skeletal material remains. As an aside, I would note that the Nazi crematory ovens did keep blasting away, because they were operated 24 hours per day, 7 days per week. Result: the entire corpse was reduced to smoke and powder. What happened (e.g., at Birkenau) was that crematory workers brought in a pile of corpses stacked on a steel litter, threw open the oven door, rolled the entire litter into the oven, used a steel pole with a flat plate on the end to hold the corpses in the oven, and pulled the litter back out again, leaving them there. The door was then slammed shut, and all of the bodies began to burn. As soon as they had been reduced down to a small enough quantity to make room for more corpses, the process was repeated. Where did the unconsumed bones of the earlier corpses go? The answer: they were forced out the back of the oven into the ductwork, where they simply continued to burn. (High-speed, forced-draft crematory ovens were used at Birkenau, and the off-gases exited the ovens through common ducts at the back. Those ducts had been deliberately made very capacious, so that it would take a long time for them to fill up with solid material, thereby minimizing down time.) And by the way: (1) I have read stories of "spontaneous human combustions" that were incomplete, leaving pieces of bone, or, in some cases, a foot, a finger, etc. Thus I don't think it is valid to assume that these episodes exhibited more complete combustion than that exhibited by the wicking-effect experiments. (2) This is based on memory only, but it is my impression that a large portion of the pig's skeleton was consumed in the wicking effect experiments. That some remained, however, is not surprising; nor, given the greater bone density, is it surprising that more remained than would have remained if a human cadaver had been used. Bottom line: I consider the wicking effect experiments to have been an excellent, albeit conventional, explanation for the "spontaneous human combustion" reports. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 21:15:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26408; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:12:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:12:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4A974B.A16277D1 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:09:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Starting Over Resent-Message-ID: <"tiwP93.0.XS6.gkiIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I wrote: >> >Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the >> >exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? > >To which you replied: >> >> ***{When a message is threatening to get large, I snip material that seems >> irrelevant or repetitious, to try to trim back to a reasonable size. >> Needless to say, that is a judgment call,... > >He snips, I snip, you snip. How much, and what, we all snip is, >as you say, a "judgment call." Does it not seem reasonable to >assume that someone else who snips has no different motive than >the motive that you have when you snip? ***{He did not quote the material to which he was supposedly responding. Result: he got off track, and directed his responses not at any real positions that I hold, but at fictive constructs that existed only in his own mind. I, on the other hand, always quote the material to which I am responding, both so the other party will know what I am responding to, and to keep myself on track. That's the difference. --MJ}*** >> ***{If this were a dispute about property,..... > >Actually, I had mistakenly inferred that you might be unaware > that you practice the snip, as does almost everyone else. ***{I never said it wasn't OK to snip. My point was that you should not snip the material to which you are responding. --MJ}*** >I apologize for having misunderstood. ***{There is no need to apologize for that: we all do it. That's why we engage in dialogue, in fact--to clear up our misunderstandings. --MJ}*** >> ***{"Propaganda" refers to the precepts, principles, or doctrines used in >> the recruitment activities of an organization, or by the leaders of a mass >> movement. > >This seems to me to be a highly idiosyncratic definition of >"propaganda." ***{Not at all. Here is the complete writeup under "propaganda," from my copy of the *American Collegiate Dictionary* (pg. 970): "1. the particular doctrine or principles propagated by an organization or concerted movement. 2. such an organization or concerted movement. 3. College of Propaganda, a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision of the foreign missions of the Roman Catholic Church, and the training of priests for those missions." Of the three possible usages listed, only the first--the most common usage--could have reasonably been what you intended. Thus I asked you to name the organization or mass movement which you believe advocates reasoned dialogue as part of its doctrine. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I meant the common dictionary definitions: (from Mirriam-Webster online) > >http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary > > > > 2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for > the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a > cause, or a person > 3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to > further one's cause or to damage an opposing > cause; also : a public action having such an effect ***{In 2, above, an action ("spreading") is described. Since you used the word as a noun, 2 is not an available interpretation. Therefore, looking at 3, the question is: what is the intended meaning of "cause"? Looking up "cause" in the same dictionary, the only interpretation that seems to fit is that of a "movement militantly defended or supported." Result: we are right back where we started, and my question for you becomes: what movement acts in furtherance of reasoned discourse? :-) --MJ}*** >I strongly believe that the following quote: > >>> As I have said before, >>> every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every >>> garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious >>> mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows >>> that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in >>> a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who >>> demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of >>> human evil. --MJ}*** > >fits the above definition precisely; that it is an attempt to >"injure..." "a person..." specifically, BillB. ***{It wasn't, but if it had been, so what? Bill Beaty fired first, and he fired often. Result: I get to fire back. The reason I say the above comment wasn't a shot at Bill is simply that it wasn't. I can't prove this, of course, but I can tell you flatly that I did *not* have Bill in mind when I wrote the sentences you quoted. Indeed, if you will read the two sentences just before the two you quoted, you will see that I was talking indirectly about the benefits of reasoned discourse by describing the types of people who refuse to engage in it. It would be a stretch to apply any of the listed examples to Bill, because his recent behavior strikes me as a lapse--a deviation from the norm--rather than as his typical behavior. In any event, here is the full quote: "Your analysis of how science searches for truth sounds like it was pulled out of an elementary school textbook. It is long on hollow platitudes, and utterly bereft of useful insights into how the process actually works. In the real world, scientists argue persistently for what they believe, and pull every resource imaginable out of their bags of tricks before going down to defeat. And that's not merely a good thing, but a great thing: the search for truth is enormously difficult. Truth is elusive, and without sincere and persistent advocates who will grasp at every resource before going down with their boots on, many truths will be labeled as falsehoods, and abandoned. The last thing science needs is a bunch of weenie "scientists" who are eager to run up a white flag as soon as the first whiff of gunpower reaches their nostrils. Introducing pejoratives into discussions, of course, is a no-no. That is part of the process of evasion, and does not belong in science. (Though pejoratives can, of course, be used in retaliation against the persons who introduced them.) However, the persistent advancement of substantive arguments in favor of what one sincerely believes is the beating heart of science and, more generally, of reason itself. It is, in fact, the only thing that stands between mankind and eventual extinction. As I have said before, every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil." You can, of course, insist that I had Bill in mind when I referred to "image-oriented, pretentious mediocrities." However, the fact is that I didn't. (My slam at Bill appeared at the beginning of the paragraph, not at the end. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** >It does not seem reasonable, to me, to use such a blatant >propaganda technique in what should be a reasoned discussion. ***{To me, "propaganda" refers to information given out in furtherance of a mass movement. Result: while I would like to see a mass movement in furtherance of reasoned discourse, what I see instead is a world in which all consistent advocates of reasoned discourse could comfortably meet in a phone booth. Practically speaking, my lauditory comments about it are simply my own unique personal opinion, and nothing more. As for whether this should be a reasoned discussion: you are correct. I would love to discuss the topic of reasoned discourse in an atmosphere devoid of personal pejoratives. However, Bill started this off not by criticising my view of reasoned discourse, but by criticizing my character. (He said I was arrogant, intolerant, closeminded, unscientific, unshakeable in my beliefs, and on and on.) Result: any light that has emerged from our discussion has done so in spite of a not inconsiderable amount of heat. I would like to rectify that state of affairs, but I am not in a position to control the choices of others. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Tom Miller ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 22:40:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15906; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:38:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:38:51 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:47:00 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"pzlBv1.0.Su3.x_jIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:32 PM 12/27/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>At 3:07 PM 12/27/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >>>***{The bones of a pig are much more dense than the bones of a human, and >>>the bones of a young human are much more dense than the bones of an elderly >>>human. Result: it is entirely plausible that the bones of an elderly human >>>might be reduced to powder by the wicking effect, while the bones of a pig >>>would not. --MJ}*** >>> >> >> >>Why is it then that the bones of the elderly are not reduced to a powder >>when they are cremated? Big gas burners are much more effective than a >>"wick." > >***{I researched the topic of cremation roughly 12 years ago in connection >with a lengthy debate-by-mail that I had with a fellow who was bent on >denying the Holocaust. At that time, I read up on the subject, and also >talked to several crematory workers. What I learned was that in a normal >cremation, the vastly greater part of a human skeleton is, in fact, reduced >to powder. I have talked to a crematory worker who told me that in ordinary cremation the skelton is not reduced to a power, but rather highly embrittled. He had in fact never seen a skeleton even significantly consumed down to a white ash. That is why it is standard procedure to put the skeleton through a two stage process, one bing a grinfer, and the final stage being a ball bearing pulverizer. I guess we need more experts in this area. The photos I have seen of SHC showed no sign of skeletal remains right up to the extremites that remained, nor signs of a conflagration or even colateral heat similar to that which happens in a crematorium. In one case the body burned a about a one foot diameter hole through a linoleum covered floor, but only left singe marks around the hole, as opposed to cathching the house on fire. There is something very unusual going on - provided these things are not hoaxes. If hoaxes, then they are very good ones, and very similar despite wide separation in time and distance, and yet good enough to fool forensic teams and police officers. I think the subject is worthy of serious scientific attention, even if only by debunkers like SCICOP, etc. provided a permanent evidence repository might me made, say at Cornell, or maybe the Smithsonian. However, as I noted earlier, even without hard proof, there is plenty of inspirational fodder there for the creative experimentalist looking for a line of investigation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Dec 27 23:36:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA14912; Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:35:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:35:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:30:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"yC4oS.0.ve3.oqkIw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Thank you for your observations on the Hiddink invention. Hiddink says his GE made units worked as claimed and talked about 1200 applications for his invention. Maybe he left out something from the patent. Do you know of anyone doing research in this area? Regards, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schaffer" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:03 PM Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions > Michael Randall wrote: > > > > What would > > be a good glass enclosed source of electrons that can be pulsed rapidly > > on & off? > >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 00:38:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA20527; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:37:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:37:01 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The "mystery" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fm0AG1.0.f05.lklIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: >tom gorge.net wrote: > > Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the > > exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? > > ***{When a message is threatening to get large, I snip material that seems > irrelevant or repetitious, to try to trim back to a reasonable size. > Needless to say, that is a judgment call, and so if you think I have > snipped out something that is important... I currently have one important topic which I'd like to see you respond to. What's your everyday life like? (See below) I consider this extremely important because without knowing the answers to any of my questions below, you don't seem like a fellow human being to me. That's why I keep asking about it repeatedly. Re: Starting Over-- was Gigantic Messages, William Beaty, Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:47:54 http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16098.html > PS, I see that you still remain a "mystery." Why? Simply an issue of > privacy? Extremely private people are not excluded from vortex-L. It > would be far better if we were humans to each other, rather than > easily-demonized characitures. I'm sure that other subscribers would > like to know more about you as well. Be a fallible human rather than a > faceless "internet character." Mitch is still a Mystery! , William Beaty, Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:27:07 http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16069.html > Mitch, do you have privacy issues? I hope you'll put on a more human > face on Vortex-L, so that I (and perhaps others here) won't so easily > "project" and "demonize". When somebody acts like a blank slate, it's > easy for them to become a projector-screen for the wrong assumptions > made by colleagues. And I hope you'll read some of my articles on > so you won't do the same to me. Bill vs. Mitch: man of Mystery! , William Beaty, Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:51:23 http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16008.html > A problem: I know almost nothing about you. If you've described yourself > on Vortex-L before, I missed it. When you state your opinions, I don't > know which ones are based on direct experience. What's your background? > Your day job? Have you done professional research, and if yes, what > kind? Do you have your personal info on the web anywhere? Are you a > hobbyist with a home lab, or are you exclusively a theorist? Are you a > lawyer who has an interest in science? A biochemist with years of direct > professional experience? A retired rancher? > "You have me at a disadvantage, sir." :) > As always, my resume and other stuff is online at > . ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:08:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00992; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:05:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:05:16 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> References: <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:05:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Secret History of Lead Resent-Message-ID: <"lFYxK.0.QF.yIsIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've just been listening to a re-broadcast of a radio show from March 28, 2000. It's a fascinating and frightening story... http://www.theconnection.org/archive/2000/03/0328a.shtml >Lead Use in Gasoline. >March 28, 2000. > >In the early years of the auto industry the du Pont family, flush with >gunpowder profits from WW I, took control of General Motors. A decade >later, GM began one of the worst polluting practices of the 20th century >- adding lead to gasoline. > >The lead was meant to stop engine knock and give cars more power, but it >wasn't the only solution available. Ethanol (grain alcohol) would've >worked just fine and GM knew it. > >Ethanol was cheap, and, more important, it wasn't a known neurotoxin. It >also could not be patented, which meant GM and DuPont could make a lot >more money off the lead. And, Jamie Lincoln Kitman says, a type >corporate cabal was born: GM and DuPont brought in Standard Oil and >promoted poison for profit. > >They pushed the lead additive over all others - even after the scientist >who'd developed the additive nearly died from the process and many >workers who manufactured it died from lead poisoning. > >A deadly heavy metal corporate conspiracy - in the first hour of The >Connection with lawyer/writer Jamie Lincoln Kitman. the original article by Kitman can be found at http://www.thenation.com/issue/000320/0320kitman.shtml From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:25:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06485; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:21:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:21:25 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:21:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead In-Reply-To: References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"e56iH.0.Bb1.5YsIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ralph muha wrote: > >The lead was meant to stop engine knock and give cars more power, but it > >wasn't the only solution available. Ethanol (grain alcohol) would've > >worked just fine and GM knew it. That is unfair. This is common knowledge, not a secret, and it probably was back then. But ethanol would be far too expensive to use as fuel -- then or now. If you did use it you would be condemning millions of people to starvation, which is even worse than polluting the air with lead. Also, the big push to high octane, high lead content gasoline came with WWII. The Germans did not have tons of spare grain lying around, so I am sure they would have developed oil-based leaded gasoline. The Allies did too, and if they had not, they would have lost the war. (See D. Yergin, "The Prize.") After the war, when it became clear that lead pollution was a problem, engineers developed a solution and today we drive lead-free vehicles. It took too long, but I do not see how anyone can argue with the final outcome. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:37:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12179; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:36:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:36:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4B6EC0.973DC3B0 austininstruments.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:48:00 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5xfOb1.0.5-2.mlsIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > ralph muha wrote: > > > >The lead was meant to stop engine knock and give cars more power, but it > > >wasn't the only solution available. Ethanol (grain alcohol) would've > > >worked just fine and GM knew it. > > That is unfair. This is common knowledge, not a secret, and it probably was > back then. But ethanol would be far too expensive to use as fuel -- then or > now. If you did use it you would be condemning millions of people to > starvation, which is even worse than polluting the air with lead. --- I believe the ethanol would have been used as an additive to slow down the combustion process, as opposed to being used as a fuel in its own right. --- John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 08:51:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15248; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:43:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:43:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4B6F61.BFD4AE27 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:50:41 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "mystery" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aygMY2.0.Ak3.vssIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >tom gorge.net wrote: > > > Have you ever considered that you might be doing (by snipping) the > > > exact behavior you ascribe to BillB? > > > > ***{When a message is threatening to get large, I snip material that seems > > irrelevant or repetitious, to try to trim back to a reasonable size. > > Needless to say, that is a judgment call, and so if you think I have > > snipped out something that is important... > > I currently have one important topic which I'd like to see you respond to. > What's your everyday life like? (See below) I consider this extremely > important because without knowing the answers to any of my questions > below, you don't seem like a fellow human being to me. That's why I keep > asking about it repeatedly. A public web search reveals the following information: Mitchell Jones 1814 Waterston Ave. Austin, TX 78703 512.476.9433 mjones jump.net 21cenlogic I-link.net Author: "The Dogs of Capitalism : Origins" See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1882719034/ref=ed_oe_p/106-4410873-1625268 Author: "The Leuchter Report : A Dissection" See: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/5338/psa/cit/Jones_Mitchell.html Arthor: "Coming Counterrevolution in Art" See: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Coming+Counterrevolution+in+Art&userid=66WHT4F069 All books published by Twenty-First Century Logic of Cedar Park, TX (no listing with the Chamber of Commerce), a suburb of Austin. None of the books are in my local library. Paid search sites can reveal much more information (see: http://ussearch.com/). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 09:16:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25589; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:10:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:10:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228115313.00c38388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:11:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead In-Reply-To: <3A4B6EC0.973DC3B0 austininstruments.com> References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uMqZY3.0.gF6.ZGtIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Fields wrote: >I believe the ethanol would have been used as an additive to slow down >the combustion process, as opposed to being used as a fuel in its own >right. Oh. I misunderstood. I thought it was more of a substitution. In any case, the lead additive technology was effective, and vitally important in the late 1930s when both the Germans and the Allies were rushing to perfect it in time for the war. The Kitman article referenced by Muha says a promising 1921 mix was 30% alcohol. Two English mixes sold in the 1930s contained 30% and 16% alcohol. I doubt the German or British military would have been interested in a mix with such high fractions of expensive fuel. Maybe a 5% mix would have been cheap enough, and would not have impacted on foodstuffs. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 09:24:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28742; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:20:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:20:24 -0800 Message-ID: <065d01c070fa$79aeaf00$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m><20001227050305.6991.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:16:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"zyy6u1.0.017.OPtIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:21 AM Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Jed wrote: > > But ethanol would be far too expensive to use as fuel -- then or > now. If you did use it you would be condemning millions of people to > starvation, which is even worse than polluting the air with lead. Grain derived ethanol is too expensive, but the ethylene stream in refineries can be hydrated to ethanol at the turn of a valve, ie., you add water (H2O) to the ethylene, and the oil companies know it. :-) Ethylene,C2H4 (28 lbs)plus Water H2O (18 lbs) ---> C2H5OH (46 Lbs Ethanol) You are paying for 18 lbs of water when you buy 46 lbs (about 6.5 gallons) of ethanol. :-) Ethanol degrades to acetaldehyde then to acetic acid (vinegar). Surely nature knows that these are environmentally benign. > > After the war, when it became clear that lead pollution was a problem, > engineers developed a solution and today we drive lead-free vehicles. It > took too long, but I do not see how anyone can argue with the final outcome. With modern reforming/reformulating or isomer units in refineries, you can get 86+ octane gasoline without the need for antiknock compounds. A friend runs a 40,000 bbl/day refinery that has an isomer unit that rearranges the atoms on the pentane (C5H12) and hexane (C6H14)molecules from natural gas wells in the area(drip gas). This boosts the octane rating from about 30 to over 82. Same chemical formula C5H12 and C6H14, but the rearrangement changes the combustion properties. Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 09:35:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32410; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:30:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:30:44 -0800 Message-ID: <066301c070fb$ea71c280$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m><20001227050305.6991.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com><5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001228115313.00c38388@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:27:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"rCzHh1.0.Kw7.3ZtIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Jed wrote:. > > The Kitman article referenced by Muha says a promising 1921 mix was 30% > alcohol. Two English mixes sold in the 1930s contained 30% and 16% alcohol. > I doubt the German or British military would have been interested in a mix > with such high fractions of expensive fuel. Maybe a 5% mix would have been > cheap enough, and would not have impacted on foodstuffs. Todays mix, (10%)thanks to the farm lobby and ADM, for a fuel that is 39% water priced and subsidized at $2.00/gallon when the refineries could make and sell it for less than 1/5 that. :-) The addition of water converts the volitile ethylene to a transportable/safe fuel, but, the btu value is a lot less than gasoline. Thus what you save in combustion efficiency increase, is lost in thermal value. Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 09:41:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04633; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:36:50 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:36:11 EST Subject: new years wish To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Resent-Message-ID: <"__uf5.0.981.oetIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happy new year Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 09:45:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06727; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:40:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:40:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4B7B91.4FEA1F0D gorge.net> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:42:41 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: RE: Starting Over Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EI26o1.0.ne1.4itIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{He did not quote the material to which he was supposedly responding. > Result: he got off track, and directed his responses not at any real > positions that I hold, but at fictive constructs that existed only in his > own mind. Although I can see that this is your opinion, have you considered that other people might have a differing opinion? That being so, perhaps you can see how this concept, constantly repeated, can cook like the following propaganda technique? (From: Propaganda Techniques: http://serendipity.magnet.ch/more/propagan.html "An idea or position is repeated in an attempt to elicit an almost automatic response from the audience or to reinforce an audience's opinion or attitude." ___________________ > Here is the complete writeup under "propaganda," from my > copy of the *American Collegiate Dictionary* (pg. 970): > > "1. the particular doctrine or principles propagated by an organization or > concerted movement. 2. such an organization or concerted movement. 3. > College of Propaganda, a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by > Pope Gregory XV, having supervision of the foreign missions of the Roman > Catholic Church, and the training of priests for those missions." This is interesting. Absent a publication DATE, and since this is not an accurate definition relative to current usage, I presume that this is from a dictionary published well BEFORE the soviet and fascist propaganda campaigns of the early 20th century. Assuming the above presumption be accurate, surely you can see that someone using the modern definition of propaganda might consider that your response looks like the "Shift of Scene" propaganda technique: "Shift of Scene. With this technique, the propagandist replaces one "field of battle" with another. It is an attempt to take the spotlight off an unfavorable situation or condition by shifting it to another, preferably of the opponent, so as to force the enemy to go on the defense." _________ > You can, of course, insist that I had Bill in mind when I referred to > "image-oriented, pretentious mediocrities." However, the fact is that I > didn't. (My slam at Bill appeared at the beginning of the paragraph, not at > the end. It would be good for you to consider that your own explanation here makes me, and presumably others, see the "slam at Bill" and this diatribe: > As I have said before, every dictator who murders > millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, > every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every > blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions > arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned > debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. > Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil." When used in the same paragraph, LOOK like the "guilt by association," and the "name calling" propaganda techniques: "Guilt by association: Guilt by association LINKS a person, group, or idea to other persons, groups, or ideas repugnant to the target audience. "Name Calling or Substitutions of Names or Moral Labels. This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable. Types of name calling: Direct name calling is used when the audience is sympathetic or neutral. It is a simple, straightforward attack on an opponent or opposing idea. INDIRECT NAME CALLING is used when direct name calling would antagonize the audience. It is a label for the degree of attack between direct name calling and insinuation. Sarcasm and ridicule are employed with this technique. Cartoons, illustrations, and photographs are used in name calling, often with deadly effect. Dangers inherent in name calling: In its extreme form, name calling may indicate that the propagandist has lost his sense of proportion or is unable to conduct a positive campaign." ________________ > any light that has emerged from our > discussion has done so in spite of a not inconsiderable amount of heat. I > would like to rectify that state of affairs, but I am not in a position to > control the choices of others. > But, mitch, YOU can control your choices. Consider how it might enhance your status, and credibility, if you were not to respond in kind to what you see as an attack." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 10:29:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23037; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:22:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:22:31 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.240.142] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Immediate Interstellar Communications (2) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:21:37 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_4ff3_6e96_40d1" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2000 18:21:37.0571 (UTC) FILETIME=[042FAF30:01C070FB] Resent-Message-ID: <"cSPo_.0.rd5.cJuIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4ff3_6e96_40d1 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 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Immediate Interstellar Communications, continued..

Schematic: Control run B

In order to verify that our distributed parameter analysis would yield increasing delay times as the theoretical transmission line was lengthened, four additional sections were appended:

[IMAGE]

Below is the transient analysis run for this lengthened circuit:

[IMAGE]

Here we can see that the delay to the risetime of the output waveform is approximately doubled, as would be expected, presumably, in an actual experiment with a real transmission line. Therefore we have verified that the simulation is valid according to countless observations from real experiments with transmission lines connected in various "conventional" configurations that seek, as a general goal, to prevent leakage of radiative EM energy from the reactive elements within the coaxial line.

However, the goal of this article is not to argue that normally configured transmission lines are somehow unsuitable for the particular purposes for which they are intended, but rather that such configurations lead to an erroneous conclusion that instanta neous communications "FTL" or Faster Than Light are not possible due to inherent conditions imposed by nature, or perhaps, by the innumerable calculations performed by the learned Professor Einstein.

Next Post: Unconventionally terminated transmission line simulation
Email Jim Ostrowski


------=_NextPart_000_4ff3_6e96_40d1-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 10:31:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21795; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:19:25 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.240.142] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Immediate Interstellar Communications (1) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:18:43 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_4664_6c5d_322" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2000 18:18:43.0347 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C573630:01C070FA] Resent-Message-ID: <"8jHCC2.0.TK5.jGuIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4664_6c5d_322 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello Vortexians........ I see that Michael Schaffer is still posting here. Hello Michael and I am happy to see that you are still around. Approximately 3 1/2 years ago, I conducted a hardwire FTL experiment and posted the oscillogram results on this forum. The experiment consisted of a square wave signal generator coupled to a 75 meter loop of standard RG-59U coaxial TV cable with the generator output connected to the outer jacket of the cable, monitored by one channel of the scope, and at the other end of the cable the inner conductor was connected to the second channel of the scope. Since the valleys and peaks of the voltages appearing on both channels were time coincident, I concluded that the signals were being passed through the cable at infinite velocity ("FTL") within the limits of the resolution of my instrument, which is about 1 ns per data point. Recently I downloaded Microcap 2 (a downrev electronics circuit simulation program) from an internet site to see if it could help me analyze what was going on in that experiment. I will be posting the results of my MC2 simulations here shortly under the subject heading "Immediate Interstellar Communications,(x)", but before I do that I would like to refresh everyone with Michael's commentary on the original experiment which I saved in a file for all this time. For what can tell Michael, you could be correct in your analysis, however I believe the simulations I am about to post will prove that standard EM theory allows for instantaneous communications (since Microcap is based on standard EM), and that the original experiments you commented on below were valid evidence of this conclusion. - Jim Ostrowski -------------Michael Schaffer's Commentary circa May - June 1997: Jim Ostrowski and I have dialoged on his recently posted faster-than-light signalling experiment. BTW, I commend Jim for posting so much information, which greatly facilitates discussion. I think I understand Jim's experiment more now than I did when I posted yesterday. My comments follow: 1. While that 75 m single loop of coax is indeed an antenna, it is not an efficient one at the frequencies in use, and antenna behavior turns out mot to be a major effect here, contrary to what I posted yesterday. (BTW, Jim, where do you do this experiment? That's a big loop to support away from ground.) Instead, it is mainly acting as a distributed 1:1 transformer. A 24 m loop has about 100 uH of self inductance, for an inductive reactance of about 400 ohm at 0.67 MHz. This is several times greater than the 60 ohm capacitive reactance of C1 at the same frequency. The mutual inductance between the inner conductor and outer jacket is almost the same (within bettter than 1%). Therefore, the common loop inductive reactance is indeed large enough that, to first order, the loop acts as a transformer, not as a capacitor. However, this is a somewhat unusual transformer, because the primary (outer jacket) and secondary (inner conductor) are each open to DC at one end. However, there is enough C (or line length) between the two to let substantial circuit current flow. This allows the 75 m coax to trnsformer couple the two sides together so as to make their voltages approximately equal at _all_ frequencies for which the line serves as a reasonably good transformer. This provides at least a first order explanation of why the two voltages measured by the oscilloscopes are almost identical for all frequency components of the experiment (.667, 1.333, 2.000 MHz). A first order equivalent circuit is: M = 100 uH 1:1 L1 = 6 uH o-------o------- -----------())))--------o \ ) ( | / ) || ( (~) R1 \ ) -||- ( C1 = 4 nF | / ) || ( (distributed) gnd \ ) ( | | open ends gnd Note: In reality there is also some distributed capacitance from outer conductor to ground. 2. I maintain that you cannot measure group velocity in a resonant circuit with a periodic signal. First, as Jim showed with his math, the phase shift of an ideal circuit resonator (and this generalizes to resonant transmission lines and cavities, too) is zero. In other words, the phase velocity in a resonator is infinity. The physical reason for this is that the resonator stores capacitive and inductive energy from one quarter cycle to the next, so one cannot know how long it has taken the energy to arrive. The energy has _already_ been in the system ever since steady state was established, millions of cycles ago. This is why I say that one must use an isolated pulse to measure signal propagation. 3. The dispersion argument might be a good one, and yesterday I did not have a good explanation for it. However, I now claim (point 1 above) that the nearly frequency-independent response apparent in the oscillograms comes from the 1:1 wideband transformer that is the coax line. -------------------------------------------- Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_4664_6c5d_322 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Immed3.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Immed3.gif" R0lGODlhJwKWALMAAAAAAAAAqwCrAACrq6sAAKsAq6tXAKurq1dXVwAA/wD/ AAD///8AAP8A////AP///ywAAAAAJwKWAAAE/xDISau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5o qq5s676wFMx0bd9xru987//AoHBIPN2OyKJyyWw6n9CoNIWs1iSNrHbL7Xq/ 4LB4TC6bz+i0es1uu9/wuHxOr9vv6wAWz+/7/4CBgoOEhYaHgnoAWQmNjo+Q kZKTlJWWl5iZmpucnZ6foKGio6Slpqeoqaqrm1mKjKyxsrO0tba3uLm6u7yz rnu9wcLDxMXGx8jJtr+LDcrP0NHS09TV1o/MsNfb3N3e0w/f4tgNr87j6Onq 6+ztndnn7vLz9PX2x/D3+vv8yOH9+MoBAzjqH8GDCBMqy6ewocOHEKExjEgx lcGKGCtOzMixo8dGF/9vLVjwbSO3GRIYPKjwsaXLaSMX3ECAgOUzk9Zk0HjA QJHNl0ALqlIQ1BpOalYC1EQpQxeDp8meMihKVVhMGwls/ER2NNqEKjppTMgl 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[IMAGE]

Demonstration of Immediate Emitter/Absorber Interactions in a Distributed Parameter Transmission Line Circuit using MicroCAP II

(c) 2000 Jim Ostrowski

Introduction

"..A.N. Whitehead thought that dim and fragmentary as our knowledge may be , it nevertheless touches the deepest realities , that no truth lay beyond the happy glance of speculation , that at the base of things does not lie bare, arbitrary mystery. If this statement of rationalistic faith is true, then ideas which entail a necessary ignorance are false. One example is that because of the vast reaches of space and time there could be entities in the universe with which communication would be impossible in our lifetimes. A related instance is that if the sun were to vanish we wouldn't know about it for eight minutes. Fortunately, both notions stem from John Locke's dismal epistemology; there is every reason to believe that this way of knowing is mostly wrong, and it is time once again to change our minds."--Philip B. Wright

Excerpted from:
Letter to the editor
Speculations in Science and Technology
ISSN 0155-7785
Volume 2, #3, pg. 211
August, 1979

MicroCAP II Transient Analysis Runs


Runs A, B = Control Runs using conventionally terminated Transmission lines

Control Run A, Schematic:

[IMAGE]

This distributed capacitance circuit was designed using a standard formula for the center conductor radius of 1.1 mm, and a length of approximately 7.5 meters which yielded an inductance value of about 12 uh. Therefore the distributed inductance of the center conductor was set to 3 Uh per section. 7.5 meters = approximately 24 ft therefore light at 300,000 km/sec would require about 24ns to span the distance between the ends of the transmission line.

RG-59U Standard coaxial TV cable has a rated distributed capacitance value of 16.9 pf/foot, therefore the farad value of such a line works out to a little over .4 nf for a 7.5 meter (~24 ft) length. The velocity factor, or percent of light speed that supp osedly can be obtained by a signal pulse passed through RG-59U is about 65 percent.

In the transient analysis plot below we do not see the risetime begin until 40 ns after the initial pulse, which places the signal transfer velocity performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE, according to the theory that transmission line signal delays are imposed by some kind of "Relativistic" speed of l ight limitation.

Control Run A- Transient Analysis Plot [IMAGE]

Next Post: IIC02.htm - Control Run B


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name="Iic03.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Iic03.htm" Zero Time Delayed communication

Immediate Interstellar Communications, continued from page 2...

Schematic: Transmission line connected in an unconventional manner

Our "control" runs showed the expected signal delays which are present in a conventionally terminated transmission line. Let us now take a look at another way to connect the line to produce Zero Time Delayed Signalling, which is infinitely "FTL"

[IMAGE]

Here we have taken the same transmission line as before, only this time since the outer conductor is no longer grounded, inductive effects produced by this conductor's electrical interactions with the emitting and absorbing elements at either end must be taken into account. Since this outer conductor is usually thicker and heavier than the inner one, the inductance value is probably several times less in terms of it's henry value. However, since we want to emphasize any possible inductive interaction that might contribute to the way this circuit would perform, we've only reduced the henry value by one third for each section.

Essentially what we have here can properly be called an "extended capacitor" with probably a much higher percentage of inductance effects than are present in ordinary capacitors. The unique feature of this capacitor is, of course, the fact that the output connections are 24 feet apart.

Below is the transient analysis run for this circuit:

[IMAGE]

Here we can see NO DISCERNABLE DELAYS between the input and output waveforms. Furthermore, much of the square wave characteristics of the signal generator are essentially preserved. In actual fact, the integrated and differentiated components of the input wave is encoded within the output wave, and vice versa, and therefore the actual characteristics of the waveforms at opposite ends are determinable with easy math transforms.

Next Post: Simulation of a longer unconventionally terminated transmission line


Email Jim Ostrowski


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Immediate Interstellar Communications, continued from page 3...

Schematic: Longer Transmission line connected in an unconventional manner

As in our control run "B", we will want to see whether or not lengthening our "ZTD" ("Zero Time Delayed") "transmission line" will result in any increase in the time required to detect the rising edge of the output waveform. In order to do that, we've add ed three more sections of similar distributed components:

[IMAGE]

Below is the transient analysis run for this circuit:

[IMAGE]

Here we still see NO DISCERNABLE DELAYS between the input and output waveforms. As before, much of the square wave characteristics of the signal generator are preserved.

What is going on? Where did the idea come from that sending signals faster than 300,000 km/sec (light speed, presumably) somehow violates causality? If a signal traveled a billion times faster than light velocity it would still be recieved after it was se nt!

Where did the idea come from that objects distant from us are "recessed in time" so that sending a signal to them faster than c velocity somehow means that such signals are going "backward in time" and into our own past? This is absurd nonsense!

Will everyone please DECONFUSE yourselves?

Quantum mechanical explanations of the simple facts demonstrated with these examples are absolutely unnecessary. The universe is connected in all it's parts with the standing waves present everywhere in every thing. Why is this so hard to believe and liv e with?

Who has deceived us?

Perhaps the better question is: Why do we allow ourselves to be decieved?

Jim Ostrowski

Next Post: Appendix- Circuit network files and link to Microcap II Download Site
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------=_NextPart_000_3b1e_72f9_2099-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 10:47:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30198; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:38:31 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.240.142] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Immediate Interstellar Communications (6) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:37:52 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_3843_7b06_40e7" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2000 18:37:53.0240 (UTC) FILETIME=[49BAF580:01C070FD] Resent-Message-ID: <"dujfD2.0.iN7.cYuIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3843_7b06_40e7 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 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rS98zJnegaKnHffDxz3Cee7zs2cA3kpX/sR5Tnzov974bye56JvP+eRj3906 V330va/46YN87qYPuvA5q/52uX9f/ZAPP8bnnvXlm1/775/9+u1f94zTnNwJ D/z5Qz/7/+u9+xtAAixAAzxABExABVxA4osAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_3843_7b06_40e7 Content-Type: text/html; name="Hidden1.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Hidden1.htm" Immediate Interstellar Communications
[IMAGE]

Extraction of Hidden FTL signals from standard Low Impedance Transmission Lines

(c) 2000 Jim Ostrowski

The Microcap 2 sim described on this page reveals that as unsuitable as the "standard" low impedance configuration for RG-59U TV cable is (for the purposes of transmitting waveforms instantaneously) even with the _typical_ low Z end terminations, analogs of the leading and trailing edge components of a very fast risetime square wave pulse should be detectable with a 10 ns/div scope, with no discernable delays between the analogous portions of the input and output waveforms (see gif, below).

As one can see, the timing of these spikes is coincident with the rise and fall of the input pulse amplitude.

The trick for seeing these spikes is to put a 1 ohm resistor in series at both the input and output ground nodes so you can monitor the current waveforms.

Unfortunately, one will find that the _amplitudes_ of these output spikes are inversely proportional to the durations of the rising and falling edges of the input square wave, which means that the closer you get to a "perfect" square wave (no such thing, really) the higher the amplitudes will be (but then they will endure for shorter periods of time).

This means that in order to see these effects in an actual test you would have to use a scope that is capable of resolving the slope time durations of the rising and falling edges of the input square wave.

Still, with a 50 volt input pulse you get significant voltage & current excursions at the 1 ohm resistor that just about any scope will pick up. This way, you can use a more "rounded off" square wave to increase the output pulse durations to reasonable values, albeit at the expense of the pulse amplitudes.

In order to run the attached sims you will need to do one or the other of these two things:

1. (Z)ap and (C)hange parameters of the new "SQR2" pulse generator back to the original pulse generator "SQR", which I am assuming that you've already installed in order to view my previous runs. -OR-

2. Add the following pulse generator to the Programmable Waveforms Library and give it the alias "SQR2":

0. Zero voltage level.......................0
1. One voltage level.......................50
2. Time Delay to leading edge.......5E-10
3. Time delay to One level.............2E-09
4. Time delay to falling edge..........5E-08
5. Time Delay to Zero level.............5.2E-08
6. Period of waveform.....................1

This new generator creates a more "real world" squarewave pulse with slightly gentler slopes at the rising and falling edges.

Attached are the net and .v files needed for the new sims, 2STLDET.net and.v. You will notice that the delayed component of the signal is still retained and visible with this config and simulation time parameters.

The distributed capacitance and inductance values in the schematic are as close as I can determine for standard RG-59 U TV Coax from the characteristic impedance (73 ohms) and capacitance per foot (16.9 pf/ft) for this kind of line.

RG59U Low Impedance Transmission line Analysis:

[IMAGE]

Low-Z Transient Analysis Plot [IMAGE]


------=_NextPart_000_3843_7b06_40e7-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 10:47:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28804; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:35:27 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.240.142] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Immediate Interstellar Communications (5) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:34:52 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_32ca_78ba_37e" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Dec 2000 18:34:52.0989 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE4AD6D0:01C070FC] Resent-Message-ID: <"unzeo1.0.z17.lVuIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_32ca_78ba_37e Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_32ca_78ba_37e Content-Type: text/html; name="Appnd01.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Appnd01.htm" Micro-Cap II

Appendix

Program MicroCAP II Electronics Design and Simulation Software (MSDOS) - Rev 4.0
MCAP.ZIP 153 kB. Download.

Once you have downloaded MCAP.ZIP to your hard drive, decompress the file with PKunzip or Winunzip. The program may then be run from the command MC2.EXE.

In order to run the simulations described on these pages, you will need to add the pulse generator, designated by the alias name "SQR" to the Programmable Waveforms library. To do that, select (L)ibrary (4) Programmable Waveforms, then (E)dit any of the presented library files with the following parameters:

0.Zero voltage level.....................0
1.One voltage level......................50
2.Time delay to leading edge......5E-10
3.Time Delay to 1 level.................1E-9
4.Time delay to falling edge.........5E-8
5.Time delay to Zero level.............5.1E-8
6.Period of Waveform (1/f)........... .0000001

The schematic network files needed to reproduce the schematics and Transient Analysis output plots are simple text files owned and copyrighted by the author of this document, Jim Ostrowski. You can request them by email and I will send them to you free of charge, and may be redistributed as long as you do not charge for them.

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name="02stl.v" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="02stl.v" /bI7ZBCYAAAAAAAAAAAAkTjFveuqvj+4XLiTxbK+P6FXmc3K//O/NkIBICAy +j9fJfLls6AgQBSEaNl1VeG/k5n5LL/J/T+GjnIJ43EPQJo5RBQ1A+A/piag +TLdAEDzD0INlQa/P5K0K7Y2u7E/7sxq/z0Fpb+ziTgS0E2CP82CwfPB7Lu/ 8Cm+h+jZs7/CsTxuOO28P11BHCk2F7u/ ------=_NextPart_000_32ca_78ba_37e-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 11:21:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12592; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:14:57 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228141151.00c371e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:15:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Oxfam America Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UdklG1.0.g43.n4vIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: People who have extra money and can't think of what to do with it should contribute to cold fusion. And if you don't feel like doing that, consider this: http://www.oxfamamerica.org/ These people have an excellent reputation, and they emphasize self-help programs, such as microfinancing and education, which should appeal to capitalists and socialists alike. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 12:35:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05064; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:25:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:25:32 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:25:59 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a4d9ec0.153188007 mail.midiowa.net> References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698@pop.mindspring.com> <3A4B6EC0.973DC3B0@austininstruments.com> In-Reply-To: <3A4B6EC0.973DC3B0 austininstruments.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA05042 Resent-Message-ID: <"An3_A1.0.2F1.y6wIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 10:48:00 -0600, John Fields wrote: >I believe the ethanol would have been used as an additive to slow down >the combustion process, as opposed to being used as a fuel in its own >right. It does. We've been using it (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol) here in Iowa for over 20 years. An 87 octane rated gasoline goes to 89.5 when the ethanol is added. An additional benefit is the ethanol grabs any water in the fuel and prevents it from freezing in below-zero temperatures. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 13:14:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18742; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:08:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:08:00 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698 pop.mindspring.com> References: <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:07:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA18700 Resent-Message-ID: <"y9Luq2.0.la4.lkwIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:21 AM -0500 12/28/00, Jed Rothwell wrote: >ralph muha wrote: > >> >The lead was meant to stop engine knock and give cars more power, but it >> >wasn't the only solution available. Ethanol (grain alcohol) would've >> >worked just fine and GM knew it. > >That is unfair. This is common knowledge, not a secret, and it probably was >back then. But ethanol would be far too expensive to use as fuel -- then or >now. If you did use it you would be condemning millions of people to >starvation, which is even worse than polluting the air with lead. > >Also, the big push to high octane, high lead content gasoline came with >WWII. The Germans did not have tons of spare grain lying around, so I am >sure they would have developed oil-based leaded gasoline. The Allies did >too, and if they had not, they would have lost the war. (See D. Yergin, >"The Prize.") > >After the war, when it became clear that lead pollution was a problem, >engineers developed a solution and today we drive lead-free vehicles. It >took too long, but I do not see how anyone can argue with the final outcome. > >- Jed you should read the article. I was amazed at the extent of the coverup, which starts back in the '20s... people were aware of the problems from the start... >In October 1921, less than two months before he hatched leaded gasoline, >Thomas Midgley drove a high-compression-engined car from Dayton to a >meeting of the Society of Automotive Engineers in Indianapolis, using a >gasoline-ethanol blended fuel containing 30 percent alcohol. "Alcohol," >he told the assembled engineers, "has tremendous advantages and minor >disadvantages." The benefits included "clean burning and freedom from >any carbon deposit...[and] tremendously high compression under which >alcohol will operate without knocking.... Because of the possible high >compression, the available horsepower is much greater with alcohol than >with gasoline." > >After four years' study, GM researchers had proved it: Ethanol was the >additive of choice. Their estimation would be confirmed by others. In >the thirties, after leaded gasoline was introduced to the United States >but before it dominated in Europe, two successful English brands of >gas--Cleveland Discoll and Kool Motor--contained 30 percent and 16 >percent alcohol, respectively. As it happened, Cleveland Discoll was >part-owned by Ethyl's half-owner, Standard Oil of New Jersey (Kool Motor >was owned by the US oil company Cities Service, today Citgo). While >their US colleagues were slandering alcohol fuels before Congressional >committees in the thirties, Standard Oil's men in England would claim, >in advertising pamphlets, that ethanol-laced, lead-free petrol offered >"the most perfect motor fuel the world has ever known," providing "extra >power, extra economy, and extra efficiency." > >[...] > >From the corporation's perspective, however, the problems with ethyl >alcohol were ultimately insurmountable and rather basic. GM couldn't >dictate an infrastructure that could supply ethanol in the volumes that >might be required. Equally troubling, any idiot with a still could make >it at home, and in those days, many did. And ethanol, unlike TEL, >couldn't be patented; it offered no profits for GM. Moreover, the oil >companies hated it, a powerful disincentive for the fledgling GM, which >was loath to jeopardize relations with these mighty power brokers. >Surely the du Pont family's growing interest in oil and oil fields, as >it branched out from its gunpowder roots into the oil-dependent chemical >business, weighed on many GM directors' minds. > >In March 1922, Pierre du Pont wrote to his brother Irénée du Pont, Du >Pont company chairman, that TEL is "a colorless liquid of sweetish odor, >very poisonous if absorbed through the skin, resulting in lead poisoning >almost immediately." This statement of early factual knowledge of TEL's >supreme deadliness is noteworthy, for it is knowledge that will be >denied repeatedly by the principals in coming years as well as in the >Ethyl Corporation's authorized history, released almost sixty years >later. Underscoring the deep and implicit coziness between GM and Du >Pont at this time, Pierre informed Irénée about TEL before GM had even >filed its patent application for it. > >With the application filed, the groundwork was laid for manufacture of >TEL. An October 1922 agreement contracted Du Pont to supply GM. Signing >for GM was Pierre du Pont; signing for Du Pont: his brother Irénée. >Manufacturing began in 1923 with a small operation in Dayton, Ohio, that >made 160 gallons of tetraethyl lead a day and shipped it out in >one-liter bottles, each of which would treat 300 gallons of gasoline. > >In February 1923 the world's first tankful of leaded gasoline was pumped >at Refiners Oil Company, at the corner of Sixth and Main streets, in >Dayton, Ohio, from a station owned by Kettering's friend Willard >Talbott. But four months earlier, an agitated William Mansfield Clark, a >lab director in the US Public Health Service, had written A.M. Stimson, >assistant Surgeon General at the PHS, warning that Du Pont was preparing >to manufacture TEL at its plant in Deepwater, New Jersey. It constituted >a "serious menace to public health" he stated, with reports already >emerging from the plant that "several very serious cases of lead >poisoning have resulted" in pilot production. > >Clark additionally speculated that widespread use of TEL would mean "on >busy thoroughfares it is highly probable that the lead oxide dust will >remain in the lower stratum." Estimating that each gallon of gasoline >burned would emit four grams of lead oxide, he worried that this would >build up to dangerous levels along heavily traveled roads and in >tunnels. > >[...] > >...in June 1924 GM president Sloan, "gravely concerned about the poison >hazard" and deaths at TEL plants in Dayton and Deepwater, approved the >formation of a medical committee, with J. Gilman Thompson, consulting >physician to Standard Oil of New Jersey (which had been marketing Ethyl >and dabbling in its manufacture), as chairman. Summing up the gloomy >feeling all around at this time, Du Pont chairman Irénée du Pont wrote >Sloan at GM that TEL "may be killed by a better substitute or because of >its poisonous character or because of its [destructive] action on the >engine." > >Following its investigation, GM's medical committee delivered what was >apparently a negative and highly cautionary report on TEL. But Irénée du >Pont, having undergone some sort of conversion or, possibly, having >remembered his family's lifelong devotion to profit at any cost, wrote >Sloan on August 29, 1924, and told him not to worry: "I have read the >doctors' report and am not disturbed by the severity of the findings." >Another product his firm made--nitroglycerin--was even more hazardous to >make, du Pont added breezily, while lead dust from car exhaust was but >nothing compared to erosion from lead paint. Years later, this would >become a major plank of TEL supporters' defense. > >For some unknown reason, the report of Sloan's blue-ribbon medical >committee, like many original documents referenced in GM reports on TEL, >is not available in the company's public archives. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:04:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02300; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:37:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"bvzjs3.0.sZ.TXxIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >>***{I researched the topic of cremation roughly 12 years ago in connection >>with a lengthy debate-by-mail that I had with a fellow who was bent on >>denying the Holocaust. At that time, I read up on the subject, and also >>talked to several crematory workers. What I learned was that in a normal >>cremation, the vastly greater part of a human skeleton is, in fact, reduced >>to powder. > > >I have talked to a crematory worker who told me that in ordinary cremation >the skelton is not reduced to a power, but rather highly embrittled. He >had in fact never seen a skeleton even significantly consumed down to a >white ash. That is why it is standard procedure to put the skeleton >through a two stage process, one being a grinfer, and the final stage being >a ball bearing pulverizer. I guess we need more experts in this area. ***{I'm not sure why, since I was also told that the last remaining vestiges of the skeleton are broken up mechanically. Thus if the impression you got from talking to a crematory operator differs from that which I got, it is only a matter of emphasis and degree. Your guy claimed that all the skeleton remained; mine claimed that most was consumed. But that is not a clear conflict. With fuel gas prices being roughly 5 times as high today as they were a mere year and a half ago (see http://bohl.minot.com/display.pl), I would expect crematory operators to turn their burners off far more quickly today than they did in the past. In any event, at the time I had my discussions of this topic, I was told that there are several parts of the skeleton that tend to be the last to disintegrate, but I do not at the present time remember what they were. (I have extensive handwritten notes on the subject, but they are buried far too deep in the pile for me to be interested in digging them out.) As I noted in my previous post, it is a choice by the crematory operator, regarding when to turn the burners off and declare the process complete. Logically, it would not be cost-effective to continue blasting away until the entire skeleton had been reduced to powder--especially given the current level of fuel-gas prices. Instead, one would leave the burners on only until the most resistant portions of the skeleton had been sufficiently embrittled to be broken up mechanically. An attempt to reduce everything to power using the burners alone would result in most of the time and expense of the process being devoted to a few small, stubbornly resistant chunks of bone. --Mitchell Jones}*** >The photos I have seen of SHC showed no sign of skeletal remains right up >to the extremites that remained, nor signs of a conflagration or even >colateral heat similar to that which happens in a crematorium. In one case >the body burned a about a one foot diameter hole through a linoleum covered >floor, but only left singe marks around the hole, as opposed to cathching >the house on fire. ***{When I was about eight years old, I left a jack-o'-lantern sitting on a hardwood floor with a large candle inside, and went out to play. When I returned, the jack-o'-lantern and candle had been completely consumed, leaving nothing but a circular singe mark on the hardwood floor, where it remains to this day. (I looked at it just a few days ago, as a matter of fact, when I was visiting my mother over the holidays.) Bottom line: I do not yet see any clear-cut and significant differences between these sorts of episodes and the results of the wicking-effect experiments. --MJ}*** There is something very unusual going on - provided >these things are not hoaxes. If hoaxes, then they are very good ones, and >very similar despite wide separation in time and distance, and yet good >enough to fool forensic teams and police officers. > >I think the subject is worthy of serious scientific attention, even if only >by debunkers like SCICOP, etc. provided a permanent evidence repository >might me made, say at Cornell, or maybe the Smithsonian. However, as I >noted earlier, even without hard proof, there is plenty of inspirational >fodder there for the creative experimentalist looking for a line of >investigation. ***{Hard proof of what? Are you merely surprised because these fires remained localized, rather than burning down the entire house? If so, I would suggest to you that fires spread up much more readily than down. Thus a small fire under a curtain or other flammable material will run up a wall, penetrate into an attic, and burn the house down; whereas a blaze of the same size, starting out near the center of the floor, or next to a sheetrock wall, with no overhead combustibles within reach, will in many cases merely burn itself out. I see nothing surprising about this, and nothing to marvel about. Bottom line: given the context supplied by the wicking effect experiments and the fact that roughly 4 million mostly elderly people die in this country every year, I see nothing surprising about the notion that in rare cases an overweight, elderly woman, suffering from osteoporosis, draped with a blanket and sitting in a rocking chair, might have a heart attack and die while smoking a cigarette, and that the cigarette might then start a fat-fueled, wicking-effect fire which slowly consumed her entire body, clothing, and the rocking chair, leaving only one of her feet up to the ankle. Before the wicking-effect experiments, these sorts of reports were surprising; after them, however, they are not. That's the way I see it, at any rate. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:04:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02342; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4B7B91.4FEA1F0D gorge.net> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:05:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Starting Over Resent-Message-ID: <"nPoM2.0.Pa.bXxIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{He did not quote the material to which he was supposedly responding. >> Result: he got off track, and directed his responses not at any real >> positions that I hold, but at fictive constructs that existed only in his >> own mind. > >Although I can see that this is your opinion, have you considered that >other people might have a differing opinion? ***{Nah. I assumed that everyone in this group, including you, regarded my words as Holy Writ. --MJ}*** >That being so, perhaps you can see how this concept, constantly >repeated ***{It wasn't "constantly repeated." Bill indulged in pejorative speculations about me, and I responded by indulging in pejorative speculations about him. I never introduce such speculations, but I will return fire when fired upon. And, by the way: that applies to you. The tiff between Bill and myself does not give me license to fire at you, and it does not give you license to fire at me. I am not here to engage in a pissing contest with anyone. My interest is in discussing substantive ideas and information, particularly as it relates to anomalous science, rather than in exchanges of personal accusations, psychiatric speculations, gossip, or other inflammatory material. Bottom line: I am tired of this topic, and I suggest that you drop it. --MJ}*** [big snip] >But, mitch, YOU can control your choices. Consider how it might >enhance your status, and credibility, if you were not to respond >in kind to what you see as an attack." ***{What do you suggest, that I put the "moderator" into a killfile? No, please don't answer that. It is a purely rhetorical question. Let's just drop this, before it gets as out of hand as the exchange between Bill and myself. --MJ}*** > >Tom Miller ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:05:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02235; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:56:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Mitch is still a Mystery! Resent-Message-ID: <"OZN4E1.0.pY.OXxIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >Mitch, do you have privacy issues? ***{I have privacy issues and relevance issues, as follows: (1) I am a writer who is interested in the correction of massive societal errors. Result: my books focus on areas where the vastly greater portion of "expert" opinion is wrong. At present, I have three books out, one dealing with the history and purpose of fighting dogs and their existential implications, another dealing with the nature and the proper evaluation of art, and a third dealing with the views of self-styled "Holocaust revisionists." Because each book is a fundamental and effective attack on the views of large numbers of people, they tend to be infuriating to some. Result: I have a large perceived need to keep my personal life--where I live, work, etc.--private. For example, roughly ten years ago when I published the first edition of *The Leuchter Report: A Dissection*, I succeeded in infuriating a sufficient number of neo-Nazis and their ilk so that I began to receive threatening mail and harrassing phone calls. This went on for more than a year, and I have since done my best to keep my personal life as "mysterious" as possible. (2) My personal life and educational background is *irrelevant* to any issues that I discuss on the internet, because I never try to persuade anyone of anything by claims of "expertise." When on occasion I mention my personal experiences--e.g., the fire-consumed jack-o'-lantern that I mentioned this morning--it is *always* because I consider the episode to be relevant to the discussion, and I *never* insist that anyone believe anything merely because I said it. While I dislike pissing contests, I do not mind if people politely question my statements, and when they do so, they get reasons back, not indignant claims of "expertise." In point of fact, it is my view that the only real qualification anybody has for stating any opinion is the reasons upon which he bases that opinion, nothing more, and nothing less. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I hope you'll put on a more human face on Vortex-L, so that I (and perhaps >others here) won't so easily "project" and "demonize". ***{I fail to see why knowing where I live, the work I do, my educational background, etc., would make me harder to "demonize." The fact of the matter is that it is common-as-dirt behavior for people to demonize those who piss them off, and I piss people off. That's why, when I demolished the central piece of "evidence" that neo-Nazis use to deny the Holocaust, I began to receive threatening letters and phone calls, and that is precisely *why* I go to great lengths to be as private a person as I can be. The truth is that the more details a person's enemies have about him, the easier it is for them to strike out at him. That is simply a fact. --MJ}*** When somebody >acts like a blank slate, it's easy for them to become a projector-screen >for the wrong assumptions made by colleagues. And I hope you'll read some >of my articles on http://www.amasci.com/billb.html so you won't do the >same to me. ***{I am intensely aware of the pitfalls of speculating about events in another person's stream of consciousness. That's why I try to avoid doing it, and only return fire when fired upon. --MJ}*** >On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, William Beaty wrote: >>Mitch wrote: >> > I am *not* taking a position without looking at >> > physical evidence. The fact is that I have looked at *massive* evidence, >> >> Really? >> >> A problem: I know almost nothing about you. If you've described yourself >> on Vortex-L before, I missed it. When you state your opinions, I don't >> know which ones are based on direct experience. What's your background? >> Your day job? Have you done professional research, and if yes, what kind? >> Do you have your personal info on the web anywhere? Are you a hobbyist >> with a home lab, or are you exclusively a theorist? Are you a lawyer who >> has an interest in science? A biochemist with years of direct >> professional experience? A retired rancher? ***{Due to lack of time, I never got around to responding to the above. Since you have chosen to copy it forward into the present post, I will do so now. Simply put, your response, above, drops the original context in which my comment was made. You had charged me with reaching a conclusion without looking at evidence, and I stated that I had, in fact, looked at lots of evidence. As such, my statement was not a claim of expertise. Rather, it was a denial of your prior assertion. There was no implication that you ought to believe me because I had looked at lots of evidence. My sole, limited point was that when you said I had not looked at evidence, you were wrong. Bottom line: since I was not claiming that you ought to believe me on the grounds of "expertise," but merely was denying your earlier claim that I had not based my conclusion on evidence, your subsequent demand that I state my credentials was an instance of context dropping at its worst. You hurled a charge. I denied it. And you then responded to my denial as if you had forgotten your original statement, to which I was responding. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> "You have me at a disadvantage, sir." :) >> >> As always, my resume and other stuff is online at >> http://www.amasci.com/billb.html. >> >> I'm a physicist-wannabe. My current day job is embedded design and SW, >> while my main avocation is writing articles for gradeschool science >> teachers on explaining electricity (see >> http://www.amasci.com/ele-edu.html) I hang out on the PHYS-L physics >> education list. I have a 9-yr old daughter, an ex-wife, and a cat. >> And a garage full of junk which needs some heaters rigged up so I can >> still play during the winter. (No, it's not cold enough out there to >> serve as a Mpemba test environment!) :) ***{You are not a person who writes books that attack the cherished beliefs of irrational and violence prone people, and, as such, you feel free to broadcast the details of your personal life on the internet. After all, what have you to fear? Nobody but a few harmless nerds get bent out of shape about your opinions. My situation, however, is different, and my response to it must be different. If that leaves you unsatisfied, too bad. --MJ}*** >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:27:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14609; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:26:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:26:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228165557.0284b9a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:21:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Secret History of Lead In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001228111501.00c24698 pop.mindspring.com> <00c901c070a0$3cdbf420$0201a8c0 m> <20001227050305.6991.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Yjd483.0.Aa3.XuxIw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ralph muha wrote: > >After the war, when it became clear that lead pollution was a problem, > >engineers developed a solution and today we drive lead-free vehicles. It > >took too long, but I do not see how anyone can argue with the final outcome. > > > >- Jed > >you should read the article. I was amazed at the extent of the coverup, >which starts back in the '20s... people were aware of the problems from >the start... I am amazed that you are amazed. Similar coverups have been quite common throughout U.S. history. The best example is the danger of cigarette smoking, which was hidden in plain sight for 300 years. Cigarettes were called "coffin nails" and they were condemned by numerous officials, experts and King James as a major threat to people's health, but until the 1960s statistical information on this subject was suppressed -- or if not suppressed, discouraged, shall we say. Industry and corporations have had enormous power in the U.S. since the mid-19th century. At the turn of the 20th century, many people thought that society was rushing toward revolution or chaos, in a bloody showdown between corporations and organized labor. Nowadays corporations are hamstrung by the threat of litigation and the fear of liability. They are terrified they may harm a customer. This fear inhibits innovation, but it also gives ordinary people unprecedented power over gigantic institutions, and it helps prevent abuses and coverups like "The Secret History of Lead." (If "tort reform" succeeds, people will lose this power.) Many liability lawsuits against corporations seem frivolous, such as the well-known case in which a woman sued McDonald's after she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I regard to these lawsuits as a 50-year-long backlash against the unfair advantages and political power corporations once wielded. Our demand for openness by corporations and government seems excessive, but it makes sense in the context of our history. It is similar to the emphasis placed on safety in school buildings and on airplanes. The amount of money spent on fire safety in school building construction is probably not cost-effective. The money would save more lives if it were invested elsewhere. Schools hardly ever burn down nowadays. You might wonder how we came to spend so much money on the problem which does not appear to exist. You have to look back at the historical situation before those standards were imposed, when many schools were dark, dismal, filthy fire traps. From 1900 to 1920 parents became fed up, they demanded reforms, and perhaps the reforms went too far. But when children's lives are at stake it is better to go too far than not far enough! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 14:54:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17706; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:51:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:51:24 -0800 Message-ID: <20001228222427.8005.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:24:27 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: One Terminal Capacitor Questions To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"sDl_g1.0.VK4.hFyIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > Hi Michael, > > ..... Do you know of > anyone doing research in this area? > No, I don't know of anyone doing this kind of research. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 16:08:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09799; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:04:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:04:45 -0800 Message-ID: <20001229000440.21003.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:04:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"DvJsi.0.sO2.SKzIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: James Ostrowski wrote: > Zero Time Delayed communication > Schematic: Transmission line connected in an unconventional manner ... Let us now take a look at another way to connect the line to produce Zero Time Delayed Signalling, which is infinitely "FTL" Here we have taken the same transmission line as before, only this time since the outer conductor is no longer grounded, inductive effects produced by this conductor's electrical interactions with the emitting and absorbing elements at either end must be taken into account. Since this outer conductor is usually thicker and heavier than the inner one, the inductance value is probably several times less in terms of it's henry value. However, since we want to emphasize any possible inductive interaction that might contribute to the way this circuit would perform, we've only reduced the henry value by one third for each section. Essentially what we have here can properly be called an "extended capacitor" with probably a much higher percentage of inductance effects than are present in ordinary capacitors. The unique feature of this capacitor is, of course, the fact that the output connections are 24 feet apart. Below is the transient analysis run for this circuit: Here we can see NO DISCERNABLE DELAYS between the input and output waveforms. Furthermore, much of the square wave characteristics of the signal generator are essentially preserved. In actual fact, the integrated and differentiated components of the input wave is encoded within the output wave, and vice versa, and therefore the actual characteristics of the waveforms at opposite ends are determinable with easy math transforms * * * * * * * * * Schaffer replies: This CIRCUIT does NOT approximate a transmission line connected as you describe, with the outer conductor no longer connected... This and other LC circuit approximations have some assumptions built into them, one of which is that there are TWO PROPERLY CONNECTED TERMINALS at each end. More specifically, the inductance due to the magnetic flux linked between the outer conductor and ground is much larger than the small inductance due to the magnetic flux linked in the small space between the inner and outer conductors. You put a smaller inductance here instead. Furthermore, you need to calculate and include in the circuit the distributed mutual inductance between the inner and outer conductors, too. This is one of the complications that the simplified circuit models is avoid! The other complication is that the outer conductor has distributed capacitance to ground. Your model has neither of these real physical properties. Therefore, it cannot correctly predict the physical outcome. The outer distributed capacitance is crucial---it is what sets the velocity of waves on the outside of a cable. BTW, antenna designers use this external wave when they make 75-to-300 ohm baluns out of coax cable. It's not faster than light, but usually it's only just a bit less. Re your computed results: The rectangular wave component of your computed output comes from the unusual, centertapped resistive voltage divider constituted by the pair of 2.5 k resistors. The square wave gets to the output end faster than light because the signal travels through the string of inductors, which in an electric circuit APPROXIMATION have no delay. Your FTL arises from neglect of the distributed capacitance between the outer conductor and ground in your circuit model. On another point, on a long time scale of a ns or so, you would see droop set in due to the capacitance in series with the resistors. Finally, the differentiated (spike) component of your computed input comes from the fact that your generator initially faces a high inductive impedance. After an L/R time, which is a couple of ns here, this spike decays. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 16:11:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20338; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:01:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:01:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20001228232845.29580.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:28:44 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"jufUn3.0.Lz4.AHzIw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- James Ostrowski wrote: >........ MicroCAP II Transient Analysis Runs Runs A, B = Control Runs using conventionally terminated Transmission This distributed capacitance circuit was designed using a standard formula for the center conductor radius of 1.1 mm, and a length of approximately 7.5 meters which yielded an inductance value of about 12 uh. Therefore the distributed inductance of the center conductor was set to 3 Uh per section. 7.5 meters = approximately 24 ft therefore light at 300,000 km/sec would require about 24ns to span the distance between the ends of the transmission line. RG-59U Standard coaxial TV cable has a rated distributed capacitance value of 16.9 pf/foot, therefore the farad value of such a line works out to a little over .4 nf for a 7.5 meter (~24 ft) length. The velocity factor, or percent of light speed that supposedly can be obtained by a signal pulse passed through RG-59U is about 65 percent. In the transient analysis plot below we do not see the risetime begin until 40 ns after the initial pulse, which places the signal transfer velocity performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE, according to the theory that transmission line signal delays are imposed by some kind of "Relativistic" speed of light limitation. Schaffer replies: Hi Jim, There are some problems with your simulation in Immediate Interstellar Communication(1), which I will abreviate as IIC1. Somehow, you miscalculated the inductance per unit length of RG-59U coaxial cable. Your values yield a cable with characteristic impedance Zo = sqrt(Ls/Cs) = sqrt(3uH/100pF) = 173 ohm. Here Ls and Cs are inductance and capacitance per LC circuit section, respectively. When I work back from C' = 16.9 pF/ft = 55.4 pF/m, I find your L' = 1.66 uH/m. I don't know how you calculated 12 uH for 7.5 m; you didn't say. However, RG-59U has only about 0.295 uH/m. Anyway, your values of Ls and Cs yield a delay per circuit LC section of ts = sqrt(LsCs) = sqrt(3uH * 100 pf) = 17.3 ns. This works out to about 1.04e8 m/s or 0.35 c, not 0.65 c as you say. The delay for 4 sections is 4(17.3 ns) = 69 ns. Your simulation shows a delay to half amplitude at the output end of about 75 ns, not so different, especially when we recall that only 4 LC circuit sections is not enough to make a very good transmission line model, and you added an extra Cs to the output side. The circuit in your IIC2 post is twice as many LC sections, so we expect the circuit to show a delay of 8(17.3 ns) = 138 ns. Its delay to half amplitude at the output side is about 145 ns, again in pretty good agreement. Clearly, you cannot conclude, "...places the signal transfer velocity performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE..." You just made a mistake on the inductance. I would also point out that here and elsewhere you place a 75 ohm or 73 ohm resistor across your signal generator, presumably to absorb any reflected wave. If your generator is an infinite impedance current source, then this is the correct placement. However, the MicroCAP generator models seem to be ideal, zero impedance voltage sources instead. The correct placement of the resistor is then IN SERIES with the source. Fortunately, you didn't run the simulation quite long enough to run into a reflection problem, so no harm done here. However, to eliminate possible reflection problems in the future, you should place the Zo-valued resistor in series with the source. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 16:32:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18465; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:27:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:27:43 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:35:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spontaneous Human Combustion (SHC) Resent-Message-ID: <"Yhl8O3.0.RW4.-fzIw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:37 PM 12/28/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] > >>>***{I researched the topic of cremation roughly 12 years ago in connection >>>with a lengthy debate-by-mail that I had with a fellow who was bent on >>>denying the Holocaust. At that time, I read up on the subject, and also >>>talked to several crematory workers. What I learned was that in a normal >>>cremation, the vastly greater part of a human skeleton is, in fact, reduced >>>to powder. >> >> >>I have talked to a crematory worker who told me that in ordinary cremation >>the skelton is not reduced to a power, but rather highly embrittled. He >>had in fact never seen a skeleton even significantly consumed down to a >>white ash. That is why it is standard procedure to put the skeleton >>through a two stage process, one being a grinfer, and the final stage being >>a ball bearing pulverizer. I guess we need more experts in this area. > >***{I'm not sure why, since I was also told that the last remaining >vestiges of the skeleton are broken up mechanically. Yes, that's right, a grinder, followed by a ball bearing pulverizer. >Thus if the impression >you got from talking to a crematory operator differs from that which I got, >it is only a matter of emphasis and degree. Yes, and that seems to be the case also with the anecdotal evidence. After looking at some of it on the web (see below) it appears that bodies are consumed to highly varying degrees in SHC cases. I would agrre with you that most of them are in fact not spontaneous at all, they have fire sources invoved, and can be explained by wicking. However, I have seen photos that showed complete bone consumption right up to the extremites, and that does not sound like wicking to me. There are also reports of subcutaneous burns in living people, which would fully eliminate wicking as a cause. For 144 refs. see: You can also find lots of debunking stuff by querying the phrase "spontaneous human combustion" in the advanced query page of www.google.com. >Your guy claimed that all the >skeleton remained; mine claimed that most was consumed. But that is not a >clear conflict. Yes, agreed, though he did indicate that SOME of the skeleton was consumed, just not the majority. In other words significant clear evidence of skeletal parts remain - unless ground up. When you open the door you see what is clearly a skeleton. The grinding is very easy because the bones are very brittle and light after cremation. >With fuel gas prices being roughly 5 times as high today as >they were a mere year and a half ago (see >http://bohl.minot.com/display.pl), I would expect crematory operators to >turn their burners off far more quickly today than they did in the past. Yes, and I've heard rumors of "doubling up" too. Totally unsubstantiated! 8^) > >In any event, at the time I had my discussions of this topic, I was told >that there are several parts of the skeleton that tend to be the last to >disintegrate, but I do not at the present time remember what they were. (I >have extensive handwritten notes on the subject, but they are buried far >too deep in the pile for me to be interested in digging them out.) As I >noted in my previous post, it is a choice by the crematory operator, >regarding when to turn the burners off and declare the process complete. >Logically, it would not be cost-effective to continue blasting away until >the entire skeleton had been reduced to powder--especially given the >current level of fuel-gas prices. Instead, one would leave the burners on >only until the most resistant portions of the skeleton had been >sufficiently embrittled to be broken up mechanically. An attempt to reduce >everything to power using the burners alone would result in most of the >time and expense of the process being devoted to a few small, stubbornly >resistant chunks of bone. Yes. However, it seems unlikely the body supplies unough fuel for that, or that the surroundings would not be set on fire by the end of the process. If the body did supply that much fuel, you wouldn't need much gas in a crematorium. The bodies go into them in pine boxes, or in some cases cardboard. > >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >>The photos I have seen of SHC showed no sign of skeletal remains right up >>to the extremites that remained, nor signs of a conflagration or even >>colateral heat similar to that which happens in a crematorium. In one case >>the body burned a about a one foot diameter hole through a linoleum covered >>floor, but only left singe marks around the hole, as opposed to cathching >>the house on fire. > >***{When I was about eight years old, I left a jack-o'-lantern sitting on a >hardwood floor with a large candle inside, and went out to play. When I >returned, the jack-o'-lantern and candle had been completely consumed, >leaving nothing but a circular singe mark on the hardwood floor, where it >remains to this day. (I looked at it just a few days ago, as a matter of >fact, when I was visiting my mother over the holidays.) Bottom line: I do >not yet see any clear-cut and significant differences between these sorts >of episodes and the results of the wicking-effect experiments. --MJ}*** I think that is quite a bit different case. Consuming bone to an ash and consuming flammibles are two very different things. Also note that even the pig was doused with gasoline to get things started. It's very difficult to imagine dropping a cigarette on a pig in a T-shirt and having it totally burn. Another strange story was of a woman's leg tissue being consumed while leaving the stocking in tact. Purely anecdotal, but not too dissimilar to many cases where upholstery or bedding was not burned. > >There is something very unusual going on - provided >>these things are not hoaxes. If hoaxes, then they are very good ones, and >>very similar despite wide separation in time and distance, and yet good >>enough to fool forensic teams and police officers. >> >>I think the subject is worthy of serious scientific attention, even if only >>by debunkers like SCICOP, etc. provided a permanent evidence repository >>might me made, say at Cornell, or maybe the Smithsonian. However, as I >>noted earlier, even without hard proof, there is plenty of inspirational >>fodder there for the creative experimentalist looking for a line of >>investigation. > >***{Hard proof of what? Are you merely surprised because these fires >remained localized, rather than burning down the entire house? No, I still think the complete consumption of bone from head to heel can not be attributed to wicking - especially the head! >If so, I >would suggest to you that fires spread up much more readily than down. Thus >a small fire under a curtain or other flammable material will run up a >wall, penetrate into an attic, and burn the house down; whereas a blaze of >the same size, starting out near the center of the floor, or next to a >sheetrock wall, with no overhead combustibles within reach, will in many >cases merely burn itself out. I see nothing surprising about this, and >nothing to marvel about. I think there are many cases of supposed SHC that fall into this category. However, there are many which I think do not. > >Bottom line: given the context supplied by the wicking effect experiments >and the fact that roughly 4 million mostly elderly people die in this >country every year, I see nothing surprising about the notion that in rare >cases an overweight, elderly woman, suffering from osteoporosis, draped >with a blanket and sitting in a rocking chair, might have a heart attack >and die while smoking a cigarette, and that the cigarette might then start >a fat-fueled, wicking-effect fire which slowly consumed her entire body, >clothing, and the rocking chair, leaving only one of her feet up to the >ankle. Before the wicking-effect experiments, these sorts of reports were >surprising; after them, however, they are not. The initial wicking effect experiements were carried out by the FBI many years ago, regarding the lady in Florida (a single case.) Despite much evidence subsequently delivered to them from various police departments and forensic people, some of which is contradictory or at least controversial as to being explained by wicking, wicking remains the official conclusion FOR THAT CASE, but it is by no means a complete explanation of all reported cases of SHC. > >That's the way I see it, at any rate. :-) > >--Mitchell Jones}*** Well, you could be right, of course. But on the other hand, if only ONE of the cases was a spontaneous non-chemical reaction, then there are VERY significant clues available to us right now as to how to obtain a robust reaction. The question is, to which side should one err? I think, at very minimum, forensic evidence should be collected and centrally archived, for such cases, and that mass spectrometry should be performed to look for isotopic anomalies in the ashes. A side benefit would be a clue as to the nature of the chemical environment in which the event initiated. In reading about some of the cases it appears there may even yet be some forensic evidence filed away that some enterprising researcher could analyse. A forensic protocol should be established for handling future such events. One item of great interest would be any unexposed film that might be in a nearby camera or stored nearby. Another thought is that ash samples might be taken from ovens periodically, if cleaned, to check for isotopic anomallies - in case some "non-spontaneous" human combustion has a significant LENR component. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 17:39:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10207; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:35:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:35:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20001229013526.28519.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:35:26 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"KBw8f.0.PV2.Xf-Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: James Ostrowski wrote: > >Immediate Interstellar Communications (6) Extraction of Hidden FTL signals from standard Low Impedance Transmission Lines The Microcap 2 sim described on this page reveals that as unsuitable as the "standard" low impedance configuration for RG-59U TV cable is (for the purposes of transmitting waveforms instantaneously) even with the _typical_ low Z end terminations, analogs of the leading and trailing edge components of a very fast risetime square wave pulse should be detectable with a 10 ns/div scope, with no discernable delays between the analogous portions of the input and output waveforms (see gif, below). As one can see, the timing of these spikes is coincident with the rise and fall of the input pulse amplitude. The trick for seeing these spikes is to put a 1 ohm resistor in series at both the input and output ground nodes so you can monitor the current waveforms. Unfortunately, one will find that the _amplitudes_ of these output spikes are inversely proportional to the durations of the rising and falling edges of the input square wave, which means that the closer you get to a "perfect" square wave (no such thing, really) the higher the amplitudes will be (but then they will endure for shorter periods of time). This means that in order to see these effects in an actual test you would have to use a scope that is capable of resolving the slope time durations of the rising and falling edges of the input square wave. Still, with a 50 volt input pulse you get significant voltage & current excursions at the 1 ohm resistor that just about any scope will pick up. This way, you can use a more "rounded off" square wave to increase the output pulse durations to reasonable values, albeit at the expense of the pulse amplitudes. In order to run the attached sims you will need to do one or the other of these two things: 1. (Z)ap and (C)hange parameters of the new "SQR2" pulse generator back to the original pulse generator "SQR", which I am assuming that you've already installed in order to view my previous runs. -OR- 2. Add the following pulse generator to the Programmable Waveforms Library and give it the alias "SQR2": 0. Zero voltage level.......................0 1. One voltage level.......................50 2. Time Delay to leading edge.......5E-10 3. Time delay to One level.............2E-09 4. Time delay to falling edge..........5E-08 5. Time Delay to Zero level.............5.2E-08 6. Period of waveform.....................1 This new generator creates a more "real world" squarewave pulse with slightly gentler slopes at the rising and falling edges. Attached are the net and .v files needed for the new sims, 2STLDET.net and.v. You will notice that the delayed component of the signal is still retained and visible with this config and simulation time parameters. The distributed capacitance and inductance values in the schematic are as close as I can determine for standard RG-59 U TV Coax from the characteristic impedance (73 ohms) and capacitance per foot (16.9 pf/ft) for this kind of line. * * * * * * * * Schaffer responds: These are good L and C values for RG-59U. They yield Zo = 73 ohm and wave speed of about 2.47e8 m/s or about 0.825 c. However, just as I pointed out in my previous post on IIC(3), this circuit model also is not a physical model of a coaxial transmission line driven in the mode you describe, because the truncated circuit model assumes a terminal pair at each end. Your model must have the inductance of the flux linked by the outer conductor, the mutual inductance between inner and outer conductors, and the distributed capacitance between the outer conductor and ground, if it is to correctly compute the results of your more general connection. Without the above physical effects modeled, your circuit model is mainly just an RC differentiator with a lot of extra stuff hung on it. The differentiator consists of the input 126 pF capacitor and (more or less) the two 1 ohm resistors in (more or less) parallel. As your computed results show, this is the way it behaves (more or less). ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 19:02:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02217; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:52:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:52:52 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001228204124.00aeb620 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:01:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"F82xY2.0.ZY.4o_Iw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:18 PM 12/28/00 +0000, you wrote: >Hello Vortexians........ > > I see that Michael Schaffer is still posting here. Hello Michael and I > am happy to see that you are still around. > > Approximately 3 1/2 years ago, I conducted a hardwire FTL experiment and > posted the oscillogram results on this forum. The experiment consisted > of a square wave signal generator coupled to a 75 meter loop of standard > RG-59U coaxial TV cable with the generator output connected to the outer > jacket of the cable, monitored by one channel of the scope, and at the > other end of the cable the inner conductor was connected to the second > channel of the scope. Since the valleys and peaks of the voltages > appearing on both channels were time coincident, I concluded that the > signals were being passed through the cable at infinite velocity ("FTL") > within the limits of the resolution of my instrument, which is about > 1 ns per data point. > > Recently I downloaded Microcap 2 (a downrev electronics circuit > simulation program) from an internet site to see if it could help me > analyze what was going on in that experiment. I will be posting the > results of my MC2 simulations here shortly under the subject heading > "Immediate Interstellar Communications,(x)", but before I do that I > would like to refresh everyone with Michael's commentary on the original > experiment which I saved in a file for all this time. I hate to be a wet blanket but the skeptic in me is screaming "Foul" Please be aware that Microcap only considers LCR relationships here and does not take into consideration the actual spacial delay involved in transiting a signal. There will be a delay. Computer simulations are wonderful design tools, Microcap is designed to optimize existing electronic designs I have used it many times to peak out a butterworth filter or tone detector for AFSK modems. The reason that Microcap does not show a delay is that nobody ever bothered to tell the program there should be one. Do you remember inputting actual wire liengths? here is where you will find your delay. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 20:02:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22114; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:57:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:57:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4BF6C0.4FFE33CD gorge.net> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:28:16 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: RE: Starting Over Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oaMDN1.0.NP5.dk0Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > My interest is in discussing substantive ideas > and information, particularly as it relates to anomalous science, rather > than in exchanges of personal accusations, psychiatric speculations, > gossip, or other inflammatory material. Wouldn't it be great, if we would just do that? It could happen, if we all want it. If every one of us on Vortex would start thinking about how our posts are perceived by others; if each of us, like you, NEVER initiate anything which can be seen as a personal attack; if all of us can ignore someone else's attack; then maybe there will be more reasoned discussion about anomalous science. >Bottom line: I am tired of this topic, and I suggest that you drop it. --MJ}*** > Well, since you asked so nicely, I think I will, at least for now. But, am making this decision of my own free will. You need to remember that you, too, can choose what and how you write. You can stop using propaganda techniques, (or, if you will, rhetoric) and concentrate on using solid, logical arguments. It is your choice. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 22:27:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28430; Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:23:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:23:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mitch is still a Mystery! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"v2Enz3.0.8y6.Ut2Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{You are not a person who writes books that attack the cherished beliefs > of irrational and violence prone people, and, as such, you feel free to > broadcast the details of your personal life on the internet. Thanks for all the info about your situation. I had no idea. > After all, > what have you to fear? Nobody but a few harmless nerds get bent out of > shape about your opinions. Certainly. > My situation, however, is different, and my > response to it must be different. If that leaves you unsatisfied, too bad. Why should I be unsatisfied? I *didn't know*. Now I do. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 02:30:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09902; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 02:29:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 02:29:54 -0800 Message-ID: <073a01c0718a$49228b00$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Think for Yourself? Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 03:25:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07147.0E469FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VRFG61.0.eQ2.XU6Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07147.0E469FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe Mitch Jones is a computer, Bill? :-) http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/12/27/part.four/index.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07147.0E469FA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Space - Part 4 The Real HAL Artificial Intelligence in Space - December 27, 2000.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Space - Part 4 The Real HAL Artificial Intelligence in Space - December 27, 2000.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/12/27/part.four/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/12/27/part.four/index.html Modified=001FFFBF8971C00198 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07147.0E469FA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 03:46:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA19784; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 03:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 03:45:33 -0800 Message-ID: <074b01c07194$c8be7f40$a3b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?History_of_Teflon=AE?= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 04:42:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07151.AFB46A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"jEzoj.0.2r4.Sb7Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07151.AFB46A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable History of Teflon=AE History of PTFE The story of PTFE began April 6, 1938, at DuPont's Jackson Laboratory in = New Jersey. DuPont chemist, Dr. Roy J. Plunkett, was working with gases = related to Freon=AE refrigerants, another DuPont product. Upon checking = a frozen, compressed sample of tetrafluoroethylene, he and his = associates discovered that the sample had polymerized spontaneously into = a white, waxy solid to form polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE).=20 PTFE is inert to virtually all chemicals and is considered the most = slippery material in existence. These properties have made it one of the = most valuable and versatile technologies ever invented, contributing to = significant advancements in areas such as aerospace, communications, = electronics, industrial processes and architecture. PTFE has become a = familiar household product, recognized worldwide for the superior = non-stick properties associated with its use as a coating on cookware = and as a soil and stain repellant for fabrics and textile products.=20 The Teflon=AE trademark was coined by DuPont and registered in 1945; the = first products were sold commercially under the trademark beginning in = 1946.=20 The invention of PTFE has been described as "an example of serendipity, = a flash of genius, a lucky accident...even a mixture of all three". = Whatever the exact circumstances of the discovery, one thing is certain: = PTFE revolutionized the plastics industry and, in turn, gave birth to = limitless applications of benefit to mankind.=20 Dr. Roy Plunkett (1911-1994) has been recognized the world over by = scientific, academic and civic communities. He was inducted into the = Plastics Hall of Fame in 1973, and, in 1985, into the National = Inventors' Hall of Fame joining such distinguished scientists and = innovators as Thomas Edison, Louis Pasteur and the Wright Brothers.=20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07151.AFB46A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable History of Teflon=AE
 
History of=20 PTFE


The story of PTFE began April 6, 1938, at = DuPont's=20 Jackson Laboratory in New Jersey. DuPont chemist, Dr. Roy J. Plunkett, = was=20 working with gases related to Freon=AE refrigerants, another = DuPont=20 product. Upon checking a frozen, compressed sample of = tetrafluoroethylene, he=20 and his associates discovered that the sample had polymerized = spontaneously into=20 a white, waxy solid to form polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE).=20

PTFE is inert to virtually all chemicals and = is=20 considered the most slippery material in existence. These properties = have made=20 it one of the most valuable and versatile technologies ever invented,=20 contributing to significant advancements in areas such as aerospace,=20 communications, electronics, industrial processes and architecture. PTFE = has=20 become a familiar household product, recognized worldwide for the = superior=20 non-stick properties associated with its use as a coating on cookware = and as a=20 soil and stain repellant for fabrics and textile products.=20

The Teflon=AE trademark was = coined by DuPont=20 and registered in 1945; the first products were sold commercially under = the=20 trademark beginning in 1946.=20

The invention of PTFE has been described as = "an=20 example of serendipity, a flash of genius, a lucky accident...even a = mixture of=20 all three". Whatever the exact circumstances of the discovery, one thing = is=20 certain: PTFE revolutionized the plastics industry and, in turn, gave = birth to=20 limitless applications of benefit to mankind.=20

Dr. Roy Plunkett (1911-1994) has been = recognized the=20 world over by scientific, academic and civic communities. He was = inducted into=20 the Plastics Hall of Fame in 1973, and, in 1985, into the National = Inventors'=20 Hall of Fame joining such distinguished scientists and innovators as = Thomas=20 Edison, Louis Pasteur and the Wright Brothers.
 =20
 

 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C07151.AFB46A20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 09:58:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14704; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:51:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:51:15 -0800 Message-ID: <380971634.978112268723.JavaMail.root web170-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:51:08 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: EXPLORING by Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="380989104.978112268194.JavaMail.root web170-mc" X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"j3hcg1.0.cb3.IyCJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --380989104.978112268194.JavaMail.root web170-mc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Goldes 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --380989104.978112268194.JavaMail.root web170-mc-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:00:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16029; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:56:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:56:10 -0800 Message-ID: <383240712.978112567178.JavaMail.root web170-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: EXPLORING by Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="383247994.978112567070.JavaMail.root web170-mc" X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"jj6yv2.0.Nw3.v0DJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --383247994.978112567070.JavaMail.root web170-mc-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:19:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22065; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:12:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:12:38 -0800 Message-ID: <385388228.978113552529.JavaMail.root web320-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:12:32 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: EXPLORING by Ken Shoulders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="385483407.978113552058.JavaMail.root web320-mc" X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"Wb7zP3.0.cO5.LGDJw" mx1> Resent-From: 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --385483407.978113552058.JavaMail.root web320-mc-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:33:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28804; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:28:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:28:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GbJSW1.0.-17.XVDJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For those who've been ignoring the bill/mitch stuff, please read the following. I think it will clear up many misconceptions. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:56:35 -0600 From: Mitchell Jones Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mitch is still a Mystery! >Mitch, do you have privacy issues? ***{I have privacy issues and relevance issues, as follows: (1) I am a writer who is interested in the correction of massive societal errors. Result: my books focus on areas where the vastly greater portion of "expert" opinion is wrong. At present, I have three books out, one dealing with the history and purpose of fighting dogs and their existential implications, another dealing with the nature and the proper evaluation of art, and a third dealing with the views of self-styled "Holocaust revisionists." Because each book is a fundamental and effective attack on the views of large numbers of people, they tend to be infuriating to some. Result: I have a large perceived need to keep my personal life--where I live, work, etc.--private. For example, roughly ten years ago when I published the first edition of *The Leuchter Report: A Dissection*, I succeeded in infuriating a sufficient number of neo-Nazis and their ilk so that I began to receive threatening mail and harrassing phone calls. This went on for more than a year, and I have since done my best to keep my personal life as "mysterious" as possible. (2) My personal life and educational background is *irrelevant* to any issues that I discuss on the internet, because I never try to persuade anyone of anything by claims of "expertise." When on occasion I mention my personal experiences--e.g., the fire-consumed jack-o'-lantern that I mentioned this morning--it is *always* because I consider the episode to be relevant to the discussion, and I *never* insist that anyone believe anything merely because I said it. While I dislike pissing contests, I do not mind if people politely question my statements, and when they do so, they get reasons back, not indignant claims of "expertise." In point of fact, it is my view that the only real qualification anybody has for stating any opinion is the reasons upon which he bases that opinion, nothing more, and nothing less. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I hope you'll put on a more human face on Vortex-L, so that I (and perhaps >others here) won't so easily "project" and "demonize". ***{I fail to see why knowing where I live, the work I do, my educational background, etc., would make me harder to "demonize." The fact of the matter is that it is common-as-dirt behavior for people to demonize those who piss them off, and I piss people off. That's why, when I demolished the central piece of "evidence" that neo-Nazis use to deny the Holocaust, I began to receive threatening letters and phone calls, and that is precisely *why* I go to great lengths to be as private a person as I can be. The truth is that the more details a person's enemies have about him, the easier it is for them to strike out at him. That is simply a fact. --MJ}*** When somebody >acts like a blank slate, it's easy for them to become a projector-screen >for the wrong assumptions made by colleagues. And I hope you'll read some >of my articles on http://www.amasci.com/billb.html so you won't do the >same to me. ***{I am intensely aware of the pitfalls of speculating about events in another person's stream of consciousness. That's why I try to avoid doing it, and only return fire when fired upon. --MJ}*** >On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, William Beaty wrote: >>Mitch wrote: >> > I am *not* taking a position without looking at >> > physical evidence. The fact is that I have looked at *massive* evidence, >> >> Really? >> >> A problem: I know almost nothing about you. If you've described yourself >> on Vortex-L before, I missed it. When you state your opinions, I don't >> know which ones are based on direct experience. What's your background? >> Your day job? Have you done professional research, and if yes, what kind? >> Do you have your personal info on the web anywhere? Are you a hobbyist >> with a home lab, or are you exclusively a theorist? Are you a lawyer who >> has an interest in science? A biochemist with years of direct >> professional experience? A retired rancher? ***{Due to lack of time, I never got around to responding to the above. Since you have chosen to copy it forward into the present post, I will do so now. Simply put, your response, above, drops the original context in which my comment was made. You had charged me with reaching a conclusion without looking at evidence, and I stated that I had, in fact, looked at lots of evidence. As such, my statement was not a claim of expertise. Rather, it was a denial of your prior assertion. There was no implication that you ought to believe me because I had looked at lots of evidence. My sole, limited point was that when you said I had not looked at evidence, you were wrong. Bottom line: since I was not claiming that you ought to believe me on the grounds of "expertise," but merely was denying your earlier claim that I had not based my conclusion on evidence, your subsequent demand that I state my credentials was an instance of context dropping at its worst. You hurled a charge. I denied it. And you then responded to my denial as if you had forgotten your original statement, to which I was responding. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> "You have me at a disadvantage, sir." :) >> >> As always, my resume and other stuff is online at >> http://www.amasci.com/billb.html. >> >> I'm a physicist-wannabe. My current day job is embedded design and SW, >> while my main avocation is writing articles for gradeschool science >> teachers on explaining electricity (see >> http://www.amasci.com/ele-edu.html) I hang out on the PHYS-L physics >> education list. I have a 9-yr old daughter, an ex-wife, and a cat. >> And a garage full of junk which needs some heaters rigged up so I can >> still play during the winter. (No, it's not cold enough out there to >> serve as a Mpemba test environment!) :) ***{You are not a person who writes books that attack the cherished beliefs of irrational and violence prone people, and, as such, you feel free to broadcast the details of your personal life on the internet. After all, what have you to fear? Nobody but a few harmless nerds get bent out of shape about your opinions. My situation, however, is different, and my response to it must be different. If that leaves you unsatisfied, too bad. --MJ}*** >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:41:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31387; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:35:06 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001229133341.00a4e180 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:34:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Fwd: Eagle-Research Brown's Gas Demonstration, General Notice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"E0idC2.0.Gg7.PbDJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >X-From_: newsletter eagle-research.com Fri Dec 29 00:21:19 2000 >Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:40:30 -0600 >From: George Wiseman >Reply-To: wiseman eagle-research.com >Organization: Eagle-Research >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Macintosh; I; PPC) >X-Accept-Language: en,en-US,en-GB >Subject: Eagle-Research Brown's Gas Demonstration, General Notice >To: >Sender: >List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.4 by Fog City Software, Inc. >List-Subscribe: > >List-Unsubscribe: > > >This is a one-time notice to Eagle-Research Customers, Eagle-Research >Newsletter and Individuals that have specifically requested information >on Brown's Gas. > >If you have no interest in ground-floor opportunity, just delete this >notice, it will not be repeated. > > The list of uses for Brown's Gas continues to grow, for example: > >1) It is the world's best torch gas. Replacing Acetylene, Propane, MAPP >Gas and Natural Gas to save money, time and produce superior products. > >2) It can enhance the combustion of fossil-fuel. Applied to vehicles, >furnaces and power plants it produces more work and less pollution. > >3) It neutralizes radioactive waste in seconds. Waste can be >neutralized where it sits, no transportation needed. > >4) MUCH MORE: The list of applications is far too long to list here; >Brown's Gas is going to increase the productivity of most industries, >revolutionize some industries and create some entirely new industries. > >Eagle-Research didn't invent Brown's Gas, it has been around for several >decades. Eagle-Research has invented the world's most efficient and >practical technology to produce and use Brown's Gas. Now it is possible >to actually use this amazing gas in industry. For general details about >Brown's Gas, see: > >http://www.eagle-research.com > >The Eagle-Research presentation in March has limited seating that will be >reserved on a first-come basis. This is the Eagle-Research 'official' >ground floor opportunity for anyone interested in reliable, practical, >industry-transforming Brown's Gas technology. There is opportunity for >Investors, Manufacturers, Distributors and Application users. This will >be the most comprehensive presentation on Brown's Gas and it's income >associated opportunities. Much will be presented here that >has never been presented anywhere before. > >To guarantee a seat, you must actually reserve it (with payment) before >the spaces are all gone. Forms are dated when received. > >The reservation form, which is on our website, contains more >information about the Demonstration. Send the reservation form to >Eagle-Research via FAX (250-428-8794) or postal service: >Eagle-Research, PO Box 118, Porthill, Idaho, 83853 > >View and print Reservation Form as PDF: >http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/forms/demoform.pdf > > >If you do not have Acrobat Reader (to read PDF files), you can download >it for FREE from: >http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/main.html > > >View as JPEG: >http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/forms/demoform.html > >This form does not print out well; a jpeg allows you to see what it is. > >If you cannot view (and print) this demoform off the website, please >email us with your postal address and we'll send it to you by post. > >Looking forward to seeing you at this event. >Wishing you a Safe and Prosperous New Year :)))) > > >George Wiseman ><wiseman@eagle-research.com> > President, CEO of Eagle-Research > >Tenaj DaCosta Wiseman ><monarch@eagle-research.com> > Event Organizer. > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >Eagle-Research presents the World's most advanced BROWN'S GAS technology! >Wed March 7th & Thurs March 8th 2001 / Missoula, Montana >LIMITED SPACE Attendance by reservation ONLY. > >NEW BOOK RELEASE: The HyZor Manual - COMING >FEBRUARY 01 / 01 > >For free email newsletter: >http://www.eagle-research.com/newsletter/newsletter.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:52:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04249; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:45:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4BF6C0.4FFE33CD gorge.net> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:43:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Starting Over Resent-Message-ID: <"Kjlon3.0.F21.alDJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> My interest is in discussing substantive ideas >> and information, particularly as it relates to anomalous science, rather >> than in exchanges of personal accusations, psychiatric speculations, >> gossip, or other inflammatory material. > > >Wouldn't it be great, if we would just do that? It could happen, if >we all want it. If every one of us on Vortex would start thinking >about how our posts are perceived by others; if each of us, like you, >NEVER initiate anything which can be seen as a personal attack; if >all of us can ignore someone else's attack; then maybe there will be >more >reasoned discussion about anomalous science. > > > >>Bottom line: I am tired of this topic, and I suggest that you drop it. >>--MJ}*** >> > >Well, since you asked so nicely, I think I will, at least for now. > >But, am making this decision of my own free will. You need to remember >that you, too, can choose what and how you write. You can stop using >propaganda techniques, (or, if you will, rhetoric) and concentrate on >using solid, logical arguments. It is your choice. ***{You said you were going to drop the personal criticisms, but you didn't. Instead, you abandoned the poorly-thought-out dictionary definition you have been quoting, and substituted an insinuation that I rely on appeals to people's irrational motivations. For the record: I don't do that. Returning to your original example, you said: >Are you aware that substantial portions of these posts constitute >PROPAGANDA? > >The following constitutes an egregious example: > >> As I have said before, >> every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every >> garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious >> mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows >> that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in >> a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who >> demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of >> human evil. --MJ}*** There is nothing irrational in the fact that the above statement appeals to individuals who despise the types of people described. Quite the contrary: it is *rational* to despise dictators who murder millions, bomb-throwing terrorists, garden variety criminals, evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrities, and blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasites, and it is simply a fact that such people are aware that their immoral actions arise out of beliefs that they cannot defend in substantive, reasoned debates. The proof is that they ooze hostility when anyone demands that they do so, and that they strike out at such persons when circumstances permit. (If you are interested in massive elaboration on the above statement, I suggest that you read my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Tom Miller ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:54:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04585; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:47:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:47:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20001229184700.4711.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:47:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: hydrogen power To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"X6BP91.0.Z71.dmDJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >I have a few questions for you Vortexians. Can someone tell me how many BTU's of energy are stored in a liter of hydrogen gas at STP? I am interested in the amount of energy that can be stored when H2 is stored in a metal hydride tank? Lets say a 500 pound tank. I assume that since a high pressure hydrogen tank would be impractical, as would a liquid H2 system. is this correct? I am also interested in the amount of electricity that would be required inorder to produce a unit of H2, say KW per say liter of H2. * * * * * * * * The reaction H2(g) + 1/2 O2(g) = H2O (l) yields (from a table of standard enthalpies of formation, at room temperature "standard conditions" of 1 bar and 298 K) 68.3 kcal/mol = 286 kj/mol for liquid H2O final product, 57.8 kcal/mol = 242 kj/mol for gaseous H2O product (I don't know if this latter is for 1 bar or 298 K, but it can't be for both simultaneously. A kW*hr is (1000 j/s)(3600 s/hr)(1 hr) = 3600 kj. Of course, you have to multiply this by an efficiency factor to calculate the USEFUL energy at the output end of some energy system. For example, practical fuel cells are no more than about 80% efficient in converting H2 and O2 into electrical energy, and they can be as low as 60%. Combustion engines are even less efficient. A mol of H2 is 2.0 grams. At 1 bar and 298 K its specific volume is about 24.5 L/mole = 0.0245 m^3/mol. This differs from the usual 22.415 L/mol at STP, because the standard temperature in "STP" is 273.1 K = 0 C, but I'm using a "spring and autumn" temperature of 20 C. A mol of metal hydride depends on which metal you choose. Ti holds up to 1 mol H2 (2 g) per mol Ti (48 g). This optimistic example illustrates the main problem of storing H2 in metal hydrides. The host metal is about 25 times more massive than the H2 stored, and this is before you add in the extra mass of the tank that contains the hydride. Furthermore, to get the H2 out of TiH2, you have to heat the hydride a lot. TiH2 is too stable. So, people have developed metal alloys that absorb and release H2 at standard temperatures, with little or no heating. However, these alloys are more massive than Ti and usually hold less than 2H per metal atom, too, and you can't recuperate all the stored H2 without some heating anyway, so the practical ratio of stored H2 mass to metal mass drops to the neighborhood of 1/100. Furthermore, these alloys contain lots of rare earth or other scarce and expensive elements, which makes their cost high. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 10:54:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03956; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:45:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:45:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229134135.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:45:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: EXPLORING by K. Shoulders - reformatted as message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zEXEz.0.kz.rkDJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [Mark Goldes posted this as an attachment, which some people may find difficult to read. - JR] EXPLORING by Ken Shoulders Bodega, CA The Observation This note is written in an attempt to shine some light on the funding problem universally faced by individual explorers of scientific frontiers. This note is particularly appropriate for the subjects of "free energy machines", "cold fusion" or nuclear waste remediation. The exploration referred to here is concerned only with scientific investigation on new frontiers where guidance from past records is not as much help as one is led to believe, and in fact, may be a hindrance to efficient progress. This story has not been made up, as this subject has been a major part of the author's life. Also, there is no a single note of bitterness in the author's mind concerning the gulf between the inventor's world and the academic methods to be discussed here. It is likely that this separation is the only way to preserve the much needed thought independence required for creative thinking and invention in truly new areas. The author does not advocate joining the explorer with institutions. Even though this union would initially provide funding for advanced exploration, it would likely become an insidious process for removing the freedom to roam into uncharted and unexplored areas. Definition of an Explorer An Explorer is the human tip of an arrow-like probe into the future where no teachers have gone before. They say explorers are easily recognized as one rides along the frontier in a comfortable Calistoga wagon. Explorers are the ones beside the trail whose face is in the mud and have an arrow in the back. That illusion is not too far from the truth as they are frequently attacked while crossing treacherous territory all alone. For the scientific explorer, attacks most often come from the most benign looking sources-academic institutions. Explorers must be natural, self-motivated leaders and possibly those that cannot be taught, as they must learn new things for themselves instead of being taught. This characteristic alone is basis enough for an attack from the academic camp as it demonstrates nonconformity, an incorrigible act. Definition of an Institution The prime characteristic of an institution is stability and the appearance of this stability must be guarded at all costs. Associating with an unruly explorer jeopardizes stability, hence, lunch money. This cannot be allowed to happen and the explorer must be attacked. To maintain this stance, clubs are formed and rules of stability are generated. No one can enter the club without swearing allegiance to the code. Unfortunately, the rules cannot also encompass the unfettered behavior required of the explorer. Exploration is thus diminished in such an institution that acts only as the receptacle of both people and funds but where there is no intrinsic greatness in it nor is there any carryover from days of great and beneficial activity. An institution is just a tin cup fighting for its life by begging for alms. Teaching is not consistent with exploration as exploration points up the future whereas teaching is bringing up the rear. Teaching is largely a standardization process that benefits society and not necessarily the individual. Different mentalities are required for these two functions and the result of combining them results in damping of future quests. One might ask how schools acquired the right to dictate the future courses of scientific endeavor through their confiscation of exploration? Schools did this simply by having the largest clubs and using this base of power to usurp the position. Explorers are not organizers and either cannot or will not accrete sufficient power to be financed in a like manner from unskilled sources of funding. They must rely either on their own meager resources or on those of skilled resource managers who know how to look for viable frontiers and frontiersmen. This is not an easy job and such funding sources are rare. Under these conditions, the tin cup wins as it is easy to drop funds into it. The above remarks about the apparent characteristics of academic institutions should not be taken as an overall condemnation of their behavior as they have a vital function in educating the mass of people that can be considered as learning disadvantaged and incapable of learning without being taught in an institution. Unfortunately, this behemoth of an institution has seized control over the mind and body of those perfectly capable of learning without assistance by forcing them to obey their club rules or face social exorcism. This universal slogan chants, "Join or die". With this concomitant reduction in rank, funding becomes unavailable from those who only contribute by the tin cup method used to fund institutions. The Dividing Line An arbitrary division line exists between the explorer being discussed here and the academic method. In this division, the explorer must choose a project or route of exploration that he can complete by himself. His only proof of having found a truly worthwhile trophy will be the proper functioning of the machine he designs and builds. This inventor does not need anything else for proof, let alone a theory for the machine. This is a wonderfully efficient system and the machine's very existence declares all that is needed. Leave the theory for those incapable of exploration. In using the academic method, the imagined path to the future is first divided into as many parts as there are participants in the institution or collection of institutions. These parts will be parceled out in finely divided form because no single person is deemed capable of solving the entire problem. This is certainly the true and necessary case for many large ventures, but virtually every new task is treated in this same manner. As the data flows in from participants, it is published through a tedious communication system that removes any hint of speculation, as this is the way to show the all-important stability needed for funding. Upon close inspection, it will turn out that the communication aspect alone absorbs far more energy and funding than doing the actual work. There is certainly a need for a document, but the overabundance of needless documentation usually generated by such a method often obscures much of the true data. The overemphasis on paper generation chokes real productivity. For the production of real human good, Publish or Perish becomes Publish and Perish. The inefficiency of exploration using the academic system is incredibly large and we do pay excessively for it. The only justification the author can see for it is that the excessive funding is spread to many of the underprivileged being taught that would otherwise have no way to participate. This produces a massive underpinning for the work that, in turn, creates stability even for undesirable areas of activity. Viewing progress produced by this method reveals that the best notions often die at the expense of supporting the large and ungainly ones, but the latter produces an acceptable form of social welfare for scientists. Conspiracy and Suppression The overlapping of the two territories of academia and explorers becomes a battleground for funds and each accuses the other of some atrocious act. The explorer screams he is being exploited, or that there is a conspiracy to suppress him. The academic community says the explorer is incapable of producing work fit for their annals and will have no part of it. There is probably no overt conspiracy going on and it is far more likely that there is a simple boundary violation in dispute. Each has a place and should occupy it productively without rancor as each niche has been proven over time to be necessary. Accord on this boundary matter still does not solve the funding problem for the explorer. Aside from finding sophisticated investors capable of seeing the efficient route to the future, there is probably no solution for the explorer. By electing to be an explorer, a way must also be found to survive in the paucity of the scientific wilderness. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 11:08:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12367; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:02:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:02:49 -0800 Message-ID: <382858528.978116564295.JavaMail.root web149-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:02:44 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS (as text in a single post)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"kmq2i.0.913.O_DJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill suggested sending this again as text for those who cannot open the attachments. Sorry for the earlier duplicate of the last part - my e-mail program is acting up. Mark Goldes EXPLORING by Ken Shoulders Bodega, CA The Observation This note is written in an attempt to shine some light on the funding problem universally faced by individual explorers of scientific frontiers. This note is particularly appropriate for the subjects of "free energy machines", "cold fusion" or nuclear waste remediation. The exploration referred to here is concerned only with scientific investigation on new frontiers where guidance from past records is not as much help as one is led to believe, and in fact, may be a hindrance to efficient progress. This story has not been made up, as this subject has been a major part of the author's life. Also, there is no a single note of bitterness in the author's mind concerning the gulf between the inventor's world and the academic methods to be discussed here. It is likely that this separation is the only way to preserve the much needed thought independence required for creative thinking and invention in truly new areas. The author does not advocate joining the explorer with institutions. Even though this union would initially provide funding for advanced exploration, it would likely become an insidious process for removing the freedom to roam into uncharted and unexplored areas. Definition of an Explorer An Explorer is the human tip of an arrow-like probe into the future where no teachers have gone before. They say explorers are easily recognized as one rides along the frontier in a comfortable Calistoga wagon. Explorers are the ones beside the trail whose face is in the mud and have an arrow in the back. That illusion is not too far from the truth as they are frequently attacked while crossing treacherous territory all alone. For the scientific explorer, attacks most often come from the most benign looking sources-academic institutions. Explorers must be natural, self-motivated leaders and possibly those that cannot be taught, as they must learn new things for themselves instead of being taught. This characteristic alone is basis enough for an attack from the academic camp as it demonstrates nonconformity, an incorrigible act. Definition of an Institution The prime characteristic of an institution is stability and the appearance of this stability must be guarded at all costs. Associating with an unruly explorer jeopardizes stability, hence, lunch money. This cannot be allowed to happen and the explorer must be attacked. To maintain this stance, clubs are formed and rules of stability are generated. No one can enter the club without swearing allegiance to the code. Unfortunately, the rules cannot also encompass the unfettered behavior required of the explorer. Exploration is thus diminished in such an institution that acts only as the receptacle of both people and funds but where there is no intrinsic greatness in it nor is there any carryover from days of great and beneficial activity. An institution is just a tin cup fighting for its life by begging for alms. Teaching is not consistent with exploration as exploration points up the future whereas teaching is bringing up the rear. Teaching is largely a standardization process that benefits society and not necessarily the individual. Different mentalities are required for these two functions and the result of combining them results in damping of future quests. One might ask how schools acquired the right to dictate the future courses of scientific endeavor through their confiscation of exploration? Schools did this simply by having the largest clubs and using this base of power to usurp the position. Explorers are not organizers and either cannot or will not accrete sufficient power to be financed in a like manner from unskilled sources of funding. They must rely either on their own meager resources or on those of skilled resource managers who know how to look for viable frontiers and frontiersmen. This is not an easy job and such funding sources are rare. Under these conditions, the tin cup wins as it is easy to drop funds into it. The above remarks about the apparent characteristics of academic institutions should not be taken as an overall condemnation of their behavior as they have a vital function in educating the mass of people that can be considered as learning disadvantaged and incapable of learning without being taught in an institution. Unfortunately, this behemoth of an institution has seized control over the mind and body of those perfectly capable of learning without assistance by forcing them to obey their club rules or face social exorcism. This universal slogan chants, "Join or die". With this concomitant reduction in rank, funding becomes unavailable from those who only contribute by the tin cup method used to fund institutions. The Dividing Line An arbitrary division line exists between the explorer being discussed here and the academic method. In this division, the explorer must choose a project or route of exploration that he can complete by himself. His only proof of having found a truly worthwhile trophy will be the proper functioning of the machine he designs and builds. This inventor does not need anything else for proof, let alone a theory for the machine. This is a wonderfully efficient system and the machine's very existence declares all that is needed. Leave the theory for those incapable of exploration. In using the academic method, the imagined path to the future is first divided into as many parts as there are participants in the institution or collection of institutions. These parts will be parceled out in finely divided form because no single person is deemed capable of solving the entire problem. This is certainly the true and necessary case for many large ventures, but virtually every new task is treated in this same manner. As the data flows in from participants, it is published through a tedious communication system that removes any hint of speculation, as this is the way to show the all-important stability needed for funding. Upon close inspection, it will turn out that the communication aspect alone absorbs far more energy and funding than doing the actual work. There is certainly a need for a document, but the overabundance of needless documentation usually generated by such a method often obscures much of the true data. The overemphasis on paper generation chokes real productivity. For the production of real human good, Publish or Perish becomes Publish and Perish. The inefficiency of exploration using the academic system is incredibly large and we do pay excessively for it. The only justification the author can see for it is that the excessive funding is spread to many of the underprivileged being taught that would otherwise have no way to participate. This produces a massive underpinning for the work that, in turn, creates stability even for undesirable areas of activity. Viewing progress produced by this method reveals that the best notions often die at the expense of supporting the large and ungainly ones, but the latter produces an acceptable form of social welfare for scientists. Conspiracy and Suppression The overlapping of the two territories of academia and explorers becomes a battleground for funds and each accuses the other of some atrocious act. The explorer screams he is being exploited, or that there is a conspiracy to suppress him. The academic community says the explorer is incapable of producing work fit for their annals and will have no part of it. There is probably no overt conspiracy going on and it is far more likely that there is a simple boundary violation in dispute. Each has a place and should occupy it productively without rancor as each niche has been proven over time to be necessary. Accord on this boundary matter still does not solve the funding problem for the explorer. Aside from finding sophisticated investors capable of seeing the efficient route to the future, there is probably no solution for the explorer. By electing to be an explorer, a way must also be found to survive in the paucity of the scientific wilderness. ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 11:41:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28205; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:39:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:39:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229141940.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:38:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS (as text in a single post)) In-Reply-To: <382858528.978116564295.JavaMail.root web149-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zSoB33.0.cu6.LXEJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now that Mark and I have uploaded versions of this essay which everyone can read, let me express some unseasonable opinions about it. Creepy! Pathetic! It reads like an excuse for doing sloppy, amateur research, and not writing up experiments properly. A classic case of inventors disease. It ain't even grammatical. "Surviving . . . the paucity of the scientific wilderness" means there is a dearth of wilderness. The paucity of the wilderness here in Atlanta makes it a snap to survive -- without a backpack, survivalist gear or an SUV, you can still reach the next shopping mall. Bah, humbug. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:24:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08611; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:16:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:16:19 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:16:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1Ptay3.0.N62.J4FJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty quoted Mitchell Jones: art, and a third dealing with the views of self-styled "Holocaust >revisionists." Because each book is a fundamental and effective attack on >the views of large numbers of people . . . when I >published the first edition of *The Leuchter Report: A Dissection*, I >succeeded in infuriating a sufficient number of neo-Nazis and their ilk so >that I began to receive threatening mail and harrassing phone calls. I hope there are not "large numbers" of neo-Nazis! I guess it would take only a small number to generate threatening mail and phone calls. Next time Jones should upset the League of Women Voters or the National Audubon Society. Seriously, I sympathize with anyone confronting Nazis. We have many extremist kooks in Georgia, including Attorney General nominee John Ashcroft and his pals at the Southern Partisan. They claim, for example, "Slave owners ... did not have a practice of breaking up slave families . . . If anything they encouraged strong slave families to further the slaves' peace and happiness." See: http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=12/26/2000&idMessage=6749 Quote of the month: >"The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety >than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell How on EARTH did Dr. Edell measure such a thing?!? What kind of metric does he use, and how does he apply it to two groups of patients fifty years apart? Studies have shown the 98.67% of statements like this have no meaning. Source: D. Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics," (Norton, 1954). I have no page ref. since Huff did not actually say this, but he did quote a psychiatrist who said that practically everybody is neurotic (p. 19), which is in line with Dr. Edell's findings. For a similar view of the evolving standards in child psychology and the worrisome explosion of anxiety among children and stuffed animals, see the recent paper, "Pathology in the Hundred Acre Wood: a neurodevelopmental perspective on A.A. Milne," S. E. Shea, et al., CMAJ 2000;163(12):1557-9 http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-163/issue-12/1557.htm Edell should cite this one! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:44:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13837; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:33:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:33:29 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.244.141] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:32:53 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Dec 2000 20:32:53.0998 (UTC) FILETIME=[8550D0E0:01C071D6] Resent-Message-ID: <"BtW-P3.0.7O3.OKFJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael, I see you responded to my request at the bottom of this letter to look at IIC6 and comment on it (before I asked!...is THAT FTL?). I prepared this response to your post last night and I'm in a bit of a rush right now, but I will study what you wrote later when I have more time. Many thanks, Jim Ostrowski ------ Michael Schaffer wrote: There are some problems with your simulation in Immediate Interstellar Communication(1), which I will abreviate as IIC1. Somehow, you miscalculated the inductance per unit length of RG-59U coaxial cable. Your values yield a cable with characteristic impedance Zo = sqrt(Ls/Cs) = sqrt(3uH/100pF) = 173 ohm. ------------ Correct. However, replacing the 73 ohm resistors with 173 ohm resistors will only increase the amplitude of the delayed output waveform somewhat, while making no significant alteration to the output waveform's position on the time axis. -jo ------------- MS: Here Ls and Cs are inductance and capacitance per LC circuit section, respectively. When I work back from C' = 16.9 pF/ft = 55.4 pF/m, I find your L' = 1.66 uH/m. I don't know how you calculated 12 uH for 7.5 m; you didn't say. However, RG-59U has only about 0.295 uH/m. Anyway, your values of Ls and Cs yield a delay per circuit LC section of ts = sqrt(LsCs) = sqrt(3uH * 100 pf) = 17.3 ns. This works out to about 1.04e8 m/s or 0.35 c, not 0.65 c as you say. ----------- OK. However this means that the Land C parameters actually used in the sim support my statement you refer to: "The velocity factor, or percent of light speed that supposedly can be obtained by a signal pulse passed through RG-59U is about 65 percent. In the transient analysis plot below we do not see the risetime begin until 40 ns after the initial pulse, which places the signal transfer velocity performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE, according to the theory that transmission line signal delays are imposed by some kind of "Relativistic" speed of light limitation." ------------ MS: The delay for 4 sections is 4(17.3 ns) = 69 ns. Your simulation shows a delay to half amplitude at the output end of about 75 ns, not so different, especially when we recall that only 4 LC circuit sections is not enough to make a very good transmission line model, and you added an extra Cs to the output side. The circuit in your IIC2 post is twice as many LC sections, so we expect the circuit to show a delay of 8(17.3 ns) = 138 ns. Its delay to half amplitude at the output side is about 145 ns, again in pretty good agreement. Clearly, you cannot conclude, "...places the signal transfer velocity performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE..." ----------- "Clearly you cannot conclude" just doesn't make sense. The performance of a transmission line with the paramaters specified will NOT yield a delay time < RG59U's delay. That was the intent. Presumably no matter what we do with a line using these parameters we will end up with delays exceeding what one would expect from RG59U in an actual experiment. -JO ---------- MS: You just made a mistake on the inductance. ---------- The benefit of this "mistake" accrues to the argument that the model should NOT yield delay times < standard coax. "under any possible circumstance" If you read my post carefully, I did not say that the model was a simulation of RG59U, in fact I stated that the model's velocity factor was lower than that spec'd for RG59U, from which one can specifically infer the fact that the parameters are stacked in favor of longer delay times than standard coax should yield. Also this negates the idea that the circuit is attempting to simulate RG59U. -JO ------------ MS: I would also point out that here and elsewhere you place a 75 ohm or 73 ohm resistor across your signal generator, presumably to absorb any reflected wave. If your generator is an infinite impedance current source, then this is the correct placement. However, the MicroCAP generator models seem to be ideal, zero impedance voltage sources instead. The correct placement of the resistor is then IN SERIES with the source. Fortunately, you didn't run the simulation quite long enough to run into a reflection problem, so no harm done here. However, to eliminate possible reflection problems in the future, you should place the Zo-valued resistor in series with the source. ===== ---------- Actually the generator models appear to be infinite impedance current sources then. Assuming the opposite results in severe distortions of the input squarewave. -JO --------------- MS: This CIRCUIT does NOT approximate a transmission line connected as you describe, with the outer conductor no longer connected... This and other LC circuit approximations have some assumptions built into them, one of which is that there are TWO PROPERLY CONNECTED TERMINALS at each end. --------------------- This point is well worth discussing at some length. We are still dealing with a length of "Transmission line cable" with the same inductance and capacitance per unit of length as in the preceding examples. What one chooses to call it seems relevant to the discussion only in terms of what this cable acts like when connected as specified.. I would prefer to call it an "extended capacitor" but there seems to be some insistence that ANYTHING used to transmit a signal across a distance long compared to the wavelength of the signal input a "transmission line". So in order to conform to the conventional terms I used transmission line. Nevertheless the line is more properly termed a capacitor because that is the dominant mode for the way it will perform as a lumped circuit element. If one then argues that in this circumstance one needs to analyse the circuit as having distributed, instead of lumped, parameters then one must retain the "distributed" parameter design used for the line except for the "improperly" connected end terminations. "Improperly" connected, a "transmission line" seems to to become a capacitor or a transformer depending on the dominant effects on the signal when analysed. It appears to me that the effects when analyzed are dominantly capacitive. But even if the analysis showed more inductive effects as would be produced by a transformer then you could call it a lumped parameter transformer and not a "transmission line". Either way you end up with a circuit element that behaves the same way as it's lumped parameter equivalent, in which case you can no longer call it a "transmission line", I suppose. This seems to me to be a catch 22! In the one case (the control experiment) we have to use a distributed parameter description of what the circuit element is: A transmission line. But if we do that and hook up this "transmission line" (an individual circuit element) some other way, then magically this "circuit element" can no longer be called a "transmission line"! And, although none of it's physical properties per unit of length are changed, it seems you are saying that we can't use a distributed parameter model to describe these physical electrical properties! How does THIS happen? We HAVE TO CALL "IT" (the circuit element we are no longer allowed to call a "transmission line") SOMETHING!.... So what if we say transmission line instead of capacitor, or inductor? The important thing is how it behaves when analysed for the way it's connected in the schematic as an individual circuit element. - JO ------------------------ MS: More specifically, the inductance due to the magnetic flux linked between the outer conductor and ground is much larger than the small inductance due to the magnetic flux linked in the small space between the inner and outer conductors. You put a smaller inductance here instead. Furthermore, you need to calculate and include in the circuit the distributed mutual inductance between the inner and outer conductors, too. This is one of the complications that the simplified circuit models to avoid! The other complication is that the outer conductor has distributed capacitance to ground. Your model has neither of these real physical properties. ------------------------- I don't see how it's fair to add complexity to a circuit element (the "transmission line", "capacitor" "transformer" - whatever) that demonstrates the delays that are agreed to be present and expected when connected in the typical way. If one adds complexity to the circuit element in one case, we should add complexity to the same circuit element in the other. But why do that when the delays anticipated in the standard configuration appear in the simpler model? - JO ----------------------------------- MS: Therefore, it cannot correctly predict the physical outcome. ----------------------------------- I would reiterate the objection raised above. We must compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. The circuit element we call a "transmission line" in one case must be the same circuit element defined by THE SAME electrical properties in the other. Otherwise you are experimenting on two DIFFERENT things. -JO --------------------------------- MS: The outer distributed capacitance is crucial---it is what sets the velocity of waves on the outside of a cable. BTW, antenna designers use this external wave when they make 75-to-300 ohm baluns out of coax cable. It's not faster than light, but usually it's only just a bit less. ----------------------- Unfortunately none of this explains the results obtained by my hardwire experiment of a few years ago or the MicroCAP 2 results, which are an argument from the same authority as the antenna designers presumably use, ie: Standard EM theory as embodied in the MicroCAP program. Now if the antenna designers are using a different theory, successful or not in the case of antenna design, on what basis should we believe this theory and not Microcap or the hardwire experiment in the case of "transmission lines", which, by definition are not antennas? Let us agree at least on what we are going to call the circuit element I have termed "transmission line" and you want to call something else, I guess. Is it an "antenna"? A capacitor? A "transformer"? ...what? -JO ------------------ MS: Re your computed results: The rectangular wave component of your computed output comes from the unusual, centertapped resistive voltage divider constituted by the pair of 2.5 k resistors. The square wave gets to the output end faster than light because the signal travels through the string of inductors, which in an electric circuit APPROXIMATION have no delay. Your FTL arises from neglect of the distributed capacitance between the outer conductor and ground in your circuit model. On another point, on a long time scale of a ns or so, you would see droop set in due to the capacitance in series with the resistors. Finally, the differentiated (spike) component of your computed input comes from the fact that your generator initially faces a high inductive impedance. After an L/R time, which is a couple of ns here, this spike decays. ===== Michael J. Schaffer ------------------------ If one replaces the 2.5k resistors with 1 meg ohm at both ends, one will see the spikes disappear completely and the waveforms at either end are identical square waves. What does this mean, in your opinion? Also when you have time please look at IIC6, "Extracting Hidden FTL signals (etc)". In this experiment we see both the delayed components of the signal and the immediate. How can you account for this result if you do not think information can be transmitted FTL? Jim Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:58:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19161; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:52:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:52:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-Sender: stk mailhost.sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:45:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"37jkG1.0.Fh4.obFJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>"The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety >>than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell > >How on EARTH did Dr. Edell measure such a thing?!? ... Studies have shown >the 98.67% of statements like this have no meaning. Kids in the 1950's didn't turn schools into slaughterhouses, and didn't attempt to destroy them with pipe bombs and fuel-air devices. Something has changed for the worse since that time. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 12:59:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17896; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:48:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:48:12 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229141940.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <382858528.978116564295.JavaMail.root web149-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:46:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS (as text in a single post)) Resent-Message-ID: <"1sZ2X3.0.TN4.CYFJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Now that Mark and I have uploaded versions of this essay which everyone can >read, let me express some unseasonable opinions about it. > >Creepy! >Pathetic! >It reads like an excuse for doing sloppy, amateur research, and not writing >up experiments properly. >A classic case of inventors disease. >It ain't even grammatical. "Surviving . . . the paucity of the scientific >wilderness" means there is a dearth of wilderness. The paucity of the >wilderness here in Atlanta makes it a snap to survive -- without a >backpack, survivalist gear or an SUV, you can still reach the next shopping >mall. >Bah, humbug. > >- Jed ***{All of which merely reinforces what you have amply demonstrated in the past--to wit: that your evaluations flow out of personal concerns, not reason. Those whom you dislike, you defame; and those whom you like, you praise. With you, there is no objectivity, and no capacity to sift out nuggets of truth from a rough-draft paper such as this, however obvious their presence may be to less biased observers. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 14:11:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15726; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:07:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:07:49 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:07:43 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"j2a0F3.0.er3.qiGJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >Kids in the 1950's didn't turn schools into slaughterhouses . . . Oh yes they did. More often than now. In California, where they keep good statistics, in-school crime rates and other juvenile crime dropped 70% to 80% in the last decade. It is the same story everywhere in the U.S.: serious crime in and out of school has fallen by 40% to 80% >, and didn't attempt to destroy them with pipe bombs and fuel-air devices. In Atlanta and throughout the south kids and adults often bombed schools back in the turbulent '50s. School and church bombings peaked in the '60s, and have almost disappeared, thank goodness. See the movie "Mississippi Burning" for a fictionalized account. The portrayal of violence is accurate. Those were teenaged kids holding the shotguns and bats. In the '60s, dead-end, hopeless, violent kids in Washington, Los Angeles, and other cities rioted, burned down whole neighborhoods, and killed hundreds of people. It was MUCH worse than a few isolated incidents in suburban schools. Violence in ghettos and small southern towns seldom made a splash in the news back then. Today, when five or ten white kids get shot in a suburban school, it is international news. People think the world is coming to an end. It used to happen every day just outside the school gates in poor neighborhoods all over the country, but nobody gave a damn. This sort of thing happened many times in history. Scores of poor people and immigrants used to drown in the North Atlantic. Fishing boats were run down by ocean liners, sailors were killed and maimed by the score in unsafe conditions. Nobody gave a damn. People hardly noticed until the Titanic went down, and suddenly it was a crisis. The laws were reformed within a year, and the problem fixed. The moral is, if you want action, you want a blazing spotlight in the news, the Drumbeat of Moral Crisis . . . kill off some rich white people. >Something has changed for the worse since that time. This is your imagination, based on hysteria and exaggerated, ahistoric accounts in the newspapers. The facts are cheerier. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 14:28:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20423; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:19:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:19:58 -0800 Message-ID: <381906636.978128394529.JavaMail.root web434-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"uMqUL2.0.1_4.DuGJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As one who has had modest success raising money for explorers - I find what Shoulders wrote to be very much on target. Anyone who knows Ken is aware that he does extraordinary research in a most professional manner. And, probably writes up experiments better than 99% of those who do any kind of lab work. It might be helpful to mention that he "coached the team" at MIT that developed the lithography which now forms the basis for fabricating computer chips. He went from there to SRI where he became the father of the field of vacuum microelectronics. One of several fruits of that period of some years are cold emitters. Monitors based on this technology are now, according to the grapevine, on the market in France - and soon to be introduced by Canon and Motorola for large, flat-screen, computer and television displays. Cold (electron) emitters have many other applications. They have taken the better part of 20 years to reach the market in spite of substantial work by many labs. In my opinion, his writing is refreshingly original and the meaning can always be derived without trouble. Jed, your comments on that score remind me of the grammarians insistance on the meaning of a word. Transpire is a good example. Until relatively recently almost all dictionaries would list a form of plant respiration as the only correct meaning. Common usage of the word...i.e. to happen, was often followed by a comment that this was considered incorrect by grammarians. Explorers are rare birds. They deserve support. But, at the very least, respect. In Ken's case, both - in spades. Mark Goldes, Chairman & CEO, Magnetic Power Inc. & Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: December 29, 2000 7:38:50 PM GMT Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS (as text in a single post)) Now that Mark and I have uploaded versions of this essay which everyone can read, let me express some unseasonable opinions about it. Creepy! Pathetic! It reads like an excuse for doing sloppy, amateur research, and not writing up experiments properly. A classic case of inventors disease. It ain't even grammatical. "Surviving . . . the paucity of the scientific wilderness" means there is a dearth of wilderness. The paucity of the wilderness here in Atlanta makes it a snap to survive -- without a backpack, survivalist gear or an SUV, you can still reach the next shopping mall. Bah, humbug. - Jed ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 15:20:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA04917; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:15:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:15:22 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:18:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <381906636.978128394529.JavaMail.root web434-mc> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"18Qjv2.0.hC1.AiHJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. Mark has a good point here Jed, I think you're being too harsh towards Ken. He's writing about something which is a real issue for many here on Vortex, the problem of doing pioneering work in a climate increasingly hostile to "boat rocking". Oh, I understand your position, and it's true that many inventors shoot themselves in the foot by buying into this romantic notion of pioneer. But the issue remains, how do you support work which may or may not end in viable product? Academia is a typical answer, and many pursue this route, but there are real limits to the kinds of research which are tolerated. Things which are "obviously" wrong (FTL, cold fusion, etc ) get you a fast track to career Siberia. Going at it with VC capital is another route, but now you cede control of the results and good business decisions are rarely in line with good scientific decisions. For me, I'd say to Ken, "Real pioneers go it alone. Sure, you end up with a few arrows in your butt, but you see those grand sights unspoiled by the stink of the common. Play the market, hack code, do whatever, but if at all possible FUND YOUR OWN WORK! Yes it's easier with that $20,000 Lecroy scope, but you're a pioneer remember? The point is to scout the terrain, and report back with your tales. Some will be wrong. Some will be incomplete. But it's understood by those who can see both sides. And such people do exist." Actually, I wouldn't say this to Ken, 'cause he's already doing it. By the way, can someone please get Ken Shoulders on Vortex? K. PS: This business about 50's children being somehow more sane is as laughable a piece of horseshit as I've come across on the internet. Really Mitch, do you expect people to take this seriously? It reminds me of that story about the radio station DJ that reported on all these tiny pits on his car windshield. Soon many folks were calling in, with all sorts of wild speculation about micrometeors, dangerous chemicals, etc. Finally the furor reached such a proportion that the state was forced to investigate. The result? The pits had been their all along, seems no-one noticed them before the DJ's suggestion. Sound familiar? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 17:05:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07026; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:00:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:00:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> References: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:58:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ Resent-Message-ID: <"-bIfJ2.0.ij1.GEJJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >William Beaty quoted Mitchell Jones: [snip] >>"The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety >>than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell > >How on EARTH did Dr. Edell measure such a thing?!? What kind of metric does >he use, and how does he apply it to two groups of patients fifty years >apart? ***{I do know what the source of his data was, but I don't think he was claiming to have measured the effect himself. He made the statement while I was listening to him on the radio, as I drove down the road one Sunday afternoon, and I pulled over, grabbed a pen, and wrote it down. The reason the remark seemed important to me is simple: it reflects the changes I would expect, given the increasing federal intrusion into education that began in the 1960's. Forced busing to achieve racial balance, for example, has the effect of ensuring that schools which were tranquil and non-violent in the 1950's will each receive a designated quota of anxiety-generating thugs in the 1990's. Moreover, that is *not* a racist statement. *Any* forced mixing of middle and upper-class students with lower class students, even if the lower class students are white, will have the effect of vastly elevating the anxiety levels among the middle and upper-class students, for the simple and sufficient reason that lower class culture emphasizes violence as a problem solving tool, while middle and upper class culture does not. What that means is that forced busing, like it or not, involves *forced busing of thugs*, and is guaranteed to elevate anxiety levels in schools that, prior to its advent, were tranquil and non-violent. And, of course, once the anxiety levels go through the roof, the students then need drugs to alleviate their anxiety. Result: the explosion in narcotics use among middle and upper-class students which has also, and not coincidentally, occurred since the 1950's. --MJ}*** Studies have shown the 98.67% of statements like this have no >meaning. Source: D. Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics," (Norton, 1954). I >have no page ref. since Huff did not actually say this, but he did quote a >psychiatrist who said that practically everybody is neurotic (p. 19), which >is in line with Dr. Edell's findings. For a similar view of the evolving >standards in child psychology and the worrisome explosion of anxiety among >children and stuffed animals, see the recent paper, "Pathology in the >Hundred Acre Wood: a neurodevelopmental perspective on A.A. Milne," S. E. >Shea, et al., CMAJ 2000;163(12):1557-9 > >http://www.cma.ca/cmaj/vol-163/issue-12/1557.htm > >Edell should cite this one! > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 17:26:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12099; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:19:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:19:13 -0800 Message-ID: <384694511.978139147756.JavaMail.root web170-mc> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.215 Resent-Message-ID: <"cTCS91.0.zy2.GWJJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith, The alternative to Venture Capital is locating Angel investors. Although they have been hard to locate in the past - it is getting less difficult - as they are forming into various associations. Perhaps the largest is University Angels - with more than 2,000 Accredited Investors. They have suddenly appeared in this past year and have done very well by us. UniversityAngels.com is the URL. Angels are mostly individuals - and they vary widely in every respect. However, the terms are usually much better than VCs will offer. (The caveat is that there is increasingly an overlap, as VC's sometimes become Angels, when firms are not ripe for their programs). I have been a consultant to the Department of Commerce on Venture Capital - in what sometimes seems like another lifetime. The Angel community is much more open to explorers. But even here it is often very tough sledding. Since 1987, when MPI was incorporated, we have raised more than $5.75m (if we include the $3.25m directly into our subsidiary). All of it from Angels. One was an Arch Angel...he invested more than $1m. He also supported Ken's work for several years and helped him move to this area from Texas. Unfortunately, his business is not doing well. Incidently, Ken does not wish to join the vortex discussions. To all those explorers seeking capital...the name of the game is persistance. And, money is usually raised, as someone well said, "eyeball to eyeball". Networking is the key. It might help to associate with a business person - if your talents and patience are not an easy fit with those requirements. Mark Goldes Magnetic Power Inc. (MPI) Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (ROOTS)(our subsidiary) ------Original Message------ From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: December 29, 2000 11:18:09 PM GMT Subject: RE: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Hi All. Mark has a good point here Jed, I think you're being too harsh towards Ken. He's writing about something which is a real issue for many here on Vortex, the problem of doing pioneering work in a climate increasingly hostile to "boat rocking". Oh, I understand your position, and it's true that many inventors shoot themselves in the foot by buying into this romantic notion of pioneer. But the issue remains, how do you support work which may or may not end in viable product? Academia is a typical answer, and many pursue this route, but there are real limits to the kinds of research which are tolerated. Things which are "obviously" wrong (FTL, cold fusion, etc ) get you a fast track to career Siberia. Going at it with VC capital is another route, but now you cede control of the results and good business decisions are rarely in line with good scientific decisions. For me, I'd say to Ken, "Real pioneers go it alone. Sure, you end up with a few arrows in your butt, but you see those grand sights unspoiled by the stink of the common. Play the market, hack code, do whatever, but if at all possible FUND YOUR OWN WORK! Yes it's easier with that $20,000 Lecroy scope, but you're a pioneer remember? The point is to scout the terrain, and report back with your tales. Some will be wrong. Some will be incomplete. But it's understood by those who can see both sides. And such people do exist." Actually, I wouldn't say this to Ken, 'cause he's already doing it. By the way, can someone please get Ken Shoulders on Vortex? K. PS: This business about 50's children being somehow more sane is as laughable a piece of horseshit as I've come across on the internet. Really Mitch, do you expect people to take this seriously? It reminds me of that story about the radio station DJ that reported on all these tiny pits on his car windshield. Soon many folks were calling in, with all sorts of wild speculation about micrometeors, dangerous chemicals, etc. Finally the furor reached such a proportion that the state was forced to investigate. The result? The pits had been their all along, seems no-one noticed them before the DJ's suggestion. Sound familiar? ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 17:33:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14175; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:27:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:27:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 19:24:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ Resent-Message-ID: <"cGuG5.0.PT3.udJJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>"The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety >>>than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell >> >>How on EARTH did Dr. Edell measure such a thing?!? ... Studies have shown >>the 98.67% of statements like this have no meaning. > > >Kids in the 1950's didn't turn schools into slaughterhouses, and didn't >attempt to destroy them with pipe bombs and fuel-air devices. Something has >changed for the worse since that time. > >--Kyle ***{That's right, Kyle, and everybody who applies common sense knows it. Jed, however, believes self-serving government statistics. Result: he sees the world as getting better and better as a consequence of larger and larger federal intrusion into education. He simply cannot comprehend, or does not want to comprehend, that when people are put in a position to issue report cards on themselves, their grades are guaranteed to be straight A's! (This is just another one of those omnipresent cases where the logic is clear and the "facts"--i.e., government statistics--are suspect. Result: the reasonable person bases his assessments on the logic, not on the "facts.") --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 18:07:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26138; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:05:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:05:24 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Mark Goldes" Cc: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 21:08:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <384694511.978139147756.JavaMail.root web170-mc> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"EdCC11.0.FO6.ZBKJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good points all. I like the name Angel, as it both captures the somewhat chimerical nature of the animal, along with the catholic overtones of retribution and ill omen *smile*. Sounds like Ken has been asked. Does he say why he doesn't want to participate in this forum? Inquiring minds want to know... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 18:21:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29518; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 18:17:51 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001229201956.00aeeaf0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:26:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: References: < <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZKGZ73.0.8D7.FNKJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Did you know that 87.4% of all quoted statistics are made up on the spot :-) At 07:24 PM 12/29/00 -0600, you wrote: > >>>"The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety > >>>than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell > >> > >>How on EARTH did Dr. Edell measure such a thing?!? ... Studies have shown > >>the 98.67% of statements like this have no meaning. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 20:07:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21007; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:01:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:01:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229214232.00a2fd90 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-Sender: stk mailhost.sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 21:54:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"MntxU1.0.585.QuLJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:07 PM 12/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Oh yes they did. More often than now. In California, where they keep good >statistics, in-school crime rates and other juvenile crime dropped 70% to >80% in the last decade. It is the same story everywhere in the U.S.: >serious crime in and out of school has fallen by 40% to 80% Who said it has dropped? I've talked to my fair share of people, average citizens, who say things are much worse today than in the past. These people were alive and mature back in the 'old days.' I trust their judgement above the judgement of any government or media source. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, please don't take me as such. >Violence in ghettos and small southern towns seldom made a splash in the >news back then. Today, when five or ten white kids get shot in a suburban >school, it is international news. People think the world is coming to an end. Maybe is will end, maybe it won't. I don't know. Personally, I hope it lasts a long time. Many idealists on or involved with television, be they people with money for funding, and Hollywood types, and politicians openly state that they want to increase gun restrictions. If you want to get something from the public, you convince them it is bad, and provide documented cases, such as Columbine. Your result is that you can convince more people that guns are bad, and get them to support the gun control (note, I did NOT write "gun removal") measures. Thus, the publicity is obvious, especially when we see types like Rosie O'Donnell speaking on the issue. My opinion is that there is a growing tendency to get guns removed from the general populus. Fine, but don't try to take mine. I think that is a prime reason behind the publicity of school tragedies. As this was semi-off topic, I will stop on this issue at this point, pending your response, should you post one. >>Something has changed for the worse since that time. > >This is your imagination, based on hysteria and exaggerated, ahistoric >accounts in the newspapers. The facts are cheerier. No, it is based on discussions with real people, not from what I glean in the media. I don't read the newspaper, and I don't trust what is said on the television. As far as I can tell, things are getting worse on the whole. In some areas, maybe better, but not averaged together. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 22:25:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18912; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: mjones jump.net Subject: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Rixvo3.0.Qd4.xzNJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: NAMECALLING AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS I've been putting off bringing the issue of namecalling to the fore. Considering the contents of the following message, now seems like a good time. http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16145.html On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > As for whether this should be a reasoned discussion: you are correct. I > would love to discuss the topic of reasoned discourse in an atmosphere > devoid of personal pejoratives. However, Bill started this off not by > criticising my view of reasoned discourse, but by criticizing my character. No sir, I did not. I criticized your BEHAVIOR, and you responded with insults. This is currently not an enormous problem on Vortex-L, since it's different than all of my other lists in lacking a no-insults rule. However Mitch, I think it is causing continuing problems for you as follows. If you insist upon interpreting my criticisms of your behavior as being insulting, then corrective feedback from outside becomes impossible, since you will fight it or ignore it. I'm sure you know what can happen to people who ignore and dismiss all external feedback, and instead "write their own report cards." Throughout our exchange you have repeatedly done just this, and it is having the usual effect. And it's not just feedback from me which you ignore. If you want me to point out specific instances, I shall, but I believe they will be very obvious if you go back and read the messages. Please go read the actual messages. I've linked them here: 12/5 to 12/26 http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html > (He said I was arrogant, intolerant, closeminded, unscientific, unshakeable > in my beliefs, and on and on.) No. At one point I described your BEHAVIOR, then labled it 'closeminded." See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15665.html, "To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness." I also described your attitude during the Mpemba messages as being one of "unshakable belief." Both were intended to be corrective feedback delivered by the forum moderator about what sort of behavior is supposed to be 'illegal' here. Somehow you misunderstood them, taking them as personal insults, then hurled genuine insults in return. In my experience most flamewars are triggered by exactly this "tit-for-tat" stuff you use. "Tit-for-tat" is a way to avoid responsibility for nasty behavior. "Well you started it" is no excuse. Please point out where I described your CHARACTER as "intolerant" or "unscientific." I take namecalling very seriously, and if I have done it without realizing it, I want to know. I take false accusations seriously too. You've been accusing me of calling you 'arrogant' and 'intolerant' ever since this message: http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15646.html... "Their preference, of course, is to accuse their opponents of being ignorant or stupid, while yours is to accuse me of being close minded, intolerant, arrogant, etc. " Please list the message(s) where I used namecalling like this. Note well that criticism of behavior is not namecalling, and if you make it a habit to see criticism as personal insults, then the cycle of feedback is shattered. > Result: any light that has emerged from our > discussion has done so in spite of a not inconsiderable amount of heat. Please read the past messages. The vast majority of the "heat" comes from only one side, and quite a bit of it takes the form of accusing me of using namecalling when I did no such thing. Can you honestly inspect your own behavior in these past messages? http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html I also ask all vortex-L subscribers to read them if you have the time (and the stomache.) This is a serious issue for the whole group. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 22:35:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20821; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:33:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:33:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:33:54 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: NAMECALLING Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9OPUi1.0.F55.J7OJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I sent off my previous message with a confusing subject line. Here's the same message again: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: mjones jump.net Subject: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:55 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com NAMECALLING AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS I've been putting off bringing the issue of namecalling to the fore. Considering the contents of the following message, now seems like a good time. http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16145.html On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: > As for whether this should be a reasoned discussion: you are correct. I > would love to discuss the topic of reasoned discourse in an atmosphere > devoid of personal pejoratives. However, Bill started this off not by > criticising my view of reasoned discourse, but by criticizing my character. No sir, I did not. I criticized your BEHAVIOR, and you responded with insults. This is currently not an enormous problem on Vortex-L, since it's different than all of my other lists in lacking a no-insults rule. [perhaps this should change] However Mitch, I think it is causing continuing problems for you as follows. If you insist upon interpreting my criticisms of your behavior as being insulting, then corrective feedback from outside becomes impossible, since you will fight it or ignore it. I'm sure you know what can happen to people who ignore and dismiss all external feedback, and instead "write their own report cards." Throughout our exchange you have repeatedly done just this, and it is having the usual effect. And it's not just feedback from me which you ignore. If you want me to point out specific instances, I shall, but I believe they will be very obvious if you go back and read the messages. Please go read the actual messages. I've linked them here: 12/5 to 12/26 http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html > (He said I was arrogant, intolerant, closeminded, unscientific, unshakeable > in my beliefs, and on and on.) No. At one point I described your BEHAVIOR, then labled it 'closeminded." See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15665.html, "To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness." I also described your attitude during the Mpemba messages as being one of "unshakable belief." Both were intended to be corrective feedback delivered by the forum moderator about what sort of behavior is supposed to be 'illegal' here. Somehow you misunderstood them, taking them as personal insults, then hurled genuine insults in return. In my experience most flamewars are triggered by exactly this "tit-for-tat" stuff you use. "Tit-for-tat" is a way to avoid responsibility for nasty behavior. "Well you started it" is no excuse. Please point out where I described your CHARACTER as "intolerant" or "unscientific." I take namecalling very seriously, and if I have done it without realizing it, I want to know. I take false accusations seriously too. You've been accusing me of calling you 'arrogant' and 'intolerant' ever since this message: http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15646.html... "Their preference, of course, is to accuse their opponents of being ignorant or stupid, while yours is to accuse me of being close minded, intolerant, arrogant, etc. " Please list the message(s) where I used namecalling like this. Note well that criticism of behavior is not namecalling, and if you make it a habit to see criticism as personal insults, then the cycle of feedback is shattered. > Result: any light that has emerged from our > discussion has done so in spite of a not inconsiderable amount of heat. Please read the past messages. The vast majority of the "heat" comes from only one side, and quite a bit of it takes the form of accusing me of using namecalling when I did no such thing. Can you honestly inspect your own behavior in these past messages? http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html I also ask all vortex-L subscribers to read them if you have the time (and the stomache.) This is a serious issue for the whole group. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 08:24:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28524; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 08:18:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 08:18:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4E0D67.A4163CDC csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:29:28 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Exide Batteries "copies" Joe Cell design! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7F5C4DD29CDA7B1168A14A75" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZZteT3.0.Wz6.mhWJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------7F5C4DD29CDA7B1168A14A75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Yesterday I got my car inspected and while I was there I was looking at various brochures to pass the time. One in particular caught my attention. It was from Exide Batteries and detailed their new "Orbital" line of automobile batteries. I was somewhat surprised to see that they basically copied the design of the electrodes in a Joe Cell when designing this "breakthrough". Each cell consists of two square electrodes with a non conducting separator between them (like normal batteries) but the difference is that they roll these electrodes up into a coil..... I thought that you guys (especially the Joe Cell fans would like to see this. Here are some links to pictures of it; Main Page: http://www.exideworld.com/default.old.htm Orbital Battery: http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/exide_orbital/ Company Press Release: EXIDE SELECT ORBITAL BREAKS CAR-BATTERY RULES SUPERIOR POWER, VIRTUALLY ACID FREE AND LEAKPROOF READING, PA, MAY 27, 1999 Exide Corporation, the world's largest producer of lead-acid batteries, today introduced the "spiral-wound" Exide Select Orbital, the first significant car (or SLI - starting, lighting, ignition) battery breakthrough since the maintenance-free model 30 years ago. Featuring highly efficient construction of tightly wound plates, an internal design helping to provide power unparalleled in conventional automotive batteries, along with gas recombinant technology to eliminate free-liquid battery acid, the Exide Select Orbital ushers in a new era in automotive battery technology. Increased cranking power when it counts (during the initial starting process), the ability to retain a charge through extended periods of non-use, virtually complete resistance to vibration and (normal) underhood physical abuse as well as greater safety through the elimination of free-liquid battery acid and serious gassing are features of this new battery, which resembles a black six-pack of beer. In addition, the Orbital's technology means the battery can be mounted in any position and in any location (even upside down in the passenger compartment) without leaking or gassing, giving auto manufacturers a great deal of flexibility in future designs. "This is a battery which can be physically abused, left unused for months--even punctured! -- and still start your vehicle," explained Robert A. Lutz, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer. "Even the best conventional batteries will fail when under these conditions." The Exide Select Orbital even breaks the rules on battery retailing. Because there is no danger of leaking acid or explosive gassing, unlike conventional automotive batteries, the Orbital can be shipped via conventional means, like FedEx, United Parcel Service and the mail, so it can be sold via the Internet or telemarketing. In addition, since the Exide Select Orbital is the first SLI battery fitted with six terminals (including two on the side for many General Motors models), true universal termination has been achieved. "And with the assurance your car or truck will start WHENEVER and WHEREVER you need it, the Exide Select Orbital is the ultimate lead-acid SLI battery," added Lutz. How did Exide eliminate liquid battery acid? In a conventional battery, the lead elements are totally submerged in the electrolyte (acid). Although many batteries today are maintenance free and do not require checking and refilling of the acid, they must be mounted upright in order to allow the gas to be vented through a series of holes. Improper mounting or handling of a conventional battery could result in acid leaking from these vent holes. In the event of severe overcharge, this new battery still needs to vent gas, but its valve-regulated-lead-acid construction features six "burp" valves, which allows the gas to escape without compromising its sealed quality. And there is no free-liquid electrolyte to escape through these "burp" valves. The Exide Select Orbital uses AGM (absorbed-glass matte) separators, which, along with the tightly-wound lead elements, have the acid (in a paste-like form) bound within their structure, eliminating the need for free electrolyte. The separators work similar to the principle by which paper towels absorb water, with the acid trapped both on the surface and in the spaces between the fibers. Why is the construction of the Exide Select Orbital so strong? The secret of the increased durability and strength lies in its tightly wound plates and compressed separators. Each of the six lead elements--more than a meter long when laid out--is pressure-packed and rolled into its own separator to resist vibration damage. This construction also minimizes conventional plate shedding and positive grid disintegration, the number-one reason for battery failure. "The spiral-wound elements look like a jelly roll," said Lutz. "And each goes into its own cylindrical compartment which gives the Orbital its six-pack look." How about performance? Perhaps the best news the Exide Select Orbital brings to the market is, besides safety and durability, this new battery's new construction enables it to outperform conventional units. The combination of efficient internal connections, and the spacing of the new separators, along with the elimination of the highly-resistant electrolyte, gives the new battery less post-to-post resistance. This provides one to one-and-a-half more volts of additional cranking power, a more than 15-percent improvement. According to Michael Greenlee, Exide's engineering vice president, the measure of this ability, like most features of the Orbital, is unique. "Old concepts like conventional CCA (cold-cranking amps) do not fit recombinant batteries like the Orbital," he explained. "The Orbital is designed for peak cranking power during the initial three to five seconds of use, when it is most needed. During this period, the Orbital puts out the equivalent of a 1,000 CCA conventional lead-acid unit. "And it can do this even when left unused for weeks or months, like someone might do with a vehicle at a summer home or a "weekend special" vehicle like a classic sports car. The Orbital's lower resistance also means faster charging time, and the construction prevents stratifying, or uneven wear of the conventional plates as the battery discharges. High under hood temperatures, a traditional enemy of a car battery, has its effect minimized by the Orbital Select as its sealed construction eliminates electrolyte loss due to evaporation while its element design minimizes the effects on grids and active material. The Exide Select Orbital joins the other premium products in the company's Select line, including batteries, starters and accessories. Exide Corporation, with annual revenues of more than $2.2 billion and operations in 19 countries, is a world leader in the manufacture of automotive and industrial lead acid batteries. In fact, the Exide Orbital Select is produced in the company's Malpica factory in Spain. Further information about Exide's business and products is available at www.Exideworld.com. Back to main press release page MJ --------------7F5C4DD29CDA7B1168A14A75 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All,
   Yesterday I got my car inspected and while I was there I was looking at various brochures to pass the time. One in particular caught my attention. It was from Exide Batteries and detailed their new "Orbital" line of automobile batteries.
   I was somewhat surprised to see that they basically copied the design of the electrodes in a Joe Cell when designing this "breakthrough". Each cell consists of two square electrodes with a non conducting separator between them (like normal batteries) but the difference is that they roll these electrodes up into a coil.....
   I thought that you guys (especially the Joe Cell fans would like to see this.
Here are some links to pictures of it;
Main Page: http://www.exideworld.com/default.old.htm
Orbital Battery:   http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/exide_orbital/
Company Press Release:
EXIDE SELECT ORBITAL BREAKS CAR-BATTERY RULES SUPERIOR POWER, VIRTUALLY ACID FREE AND LEAKPROOF

READING, PA, MAY 27, 1999 Exide Corporation, the world's largest producer of lead-acid batteries, today introduced the "spiral-wound" Exide Select Orbital, the first
significant car (or SLI - starting, lighting, ignition) battery breakthrough since the maintenance-free model 30 years ago.

Featuring highly efficient construction of tightly wound plates, an internal design helping to provide power unparalleled in conventional automotive batteries, along with
gas recombinant technology to eliminate free-liquid battery acid, the Exide Select Orbital ushers in a new era in automotive battery technology.

Increased cranking power when it counts (during the initial starting process), the ability to retain a charge through extended periods of non-use, virtually complete
resistance to vibration and (normal) underhood physical abuse as well as greater safety through the elimination of free-liquid battery acid and serious gassing are features
of this new battery, which resembles a black six-pack of beer.

In addition, the Orbital's technology means the battery can be mounted in any position and in any location (even upside down in the passenger compartment) without
leaking or gassing, giving auto manufacturers a great deal of flexibility in future designs.

"This is a battery which can be physically abused, left unused for months--even punctured! -- and still start your vehicle," explained Robert A. Lutz, Chairman, President
and Chief Executive Officer. "Even the best conventional batteries will fail when under these conditions."

The Exide Select Orbital even breaks the rules on battery retailing. Because there is no danger of leaking acid or explosive gassing, unlike conventional automotive

batteries, the Orbital can be shipped via conventional means, like FedEx, United Parcel Service and the mail, so it can be sold via the Internet or telemarketing.

In addition, since the Exide Select Orbital is the first SLI battery fitted with six terminals (including two on the side for many General Motors models), true universal
termination has been achieved.

"And with the assurance your car or truck will start WHENEVER and WHEREVER you need it, the Exide Select Orbital is the ultimate lead-acid SLI battery," added Lutz.

How did Exide eliminate liquid battery acid?

In a conventional battery, the lead elements are totally submerged in the electrolyte (acid). Although many batteries today are maintenance free and do not require
checking and refilling of the acid, they must be mounted upright in order to allow the gas to be vented through a series of holes. Improper mounting or handling of a
conventional battery could result in acid leaking from these vent holes.

In the event of severe overcharge, this new battery still needs to vent gas, but its valve-regulated-lead-acid construction features six "burp" valves, which allows the gas to
escape without compromising its sealed quality. And there is no free-liquid electrolyte to escape through these "burp" valves.

The Exide Select Orbital uses AGM (absorbed-glass matte) separators, which, along with the tightly-wound lead elements, have the acid (in a paste-like form) bound
within their structure, eliminating the need for free electrolyte.

The separators work similar to the principle by which paper towels absorb water, with the acid trapped both on the surface and in the spaces between the fibers.

Why is the construction of the Exide Select Orbital so strong?

The secret of the increased durability and strength lies in its tightly wound plates and compressed separators.

Each of the six lead elements--more than a meter long when laid out--is pressure-packed and rolled into its own separator to resist vibration damage. This construction
also minimizes conventional plate shedding and positive grid disintegration, the number-one reason for battery failure.

"The spiral-wound elements look like a jelly roll," said Lutz. "And each goes into its own cylindrical compartment which gives the Orbital its six-pack look."

How about performance?

Perhaps the best news the Exide Select Orbital brings to the market is, besides safety and durability, this new battery's new construction enables it to outperform
conventional units.

The combination of efficient internal connections, and the spacing of the new separators, along with the elimination of the highly-resistant electrolyte, gives the new
battery less post-to-post resistance. This provides one to one-and-a-half more volts of additional cranking power, a more than 15-percent improvement.

According to Michael Greenlee, Exide's engineering vice president, the measure of this ability, like most features of the Orbital, is unique.

"Old concepts like conventional CCA (cold-cranking amps) do not fit recombinant batteries like the Orbital," he explained. "The Orbital is designed for peak cranking
power during the initial three to five seconds of use, when it is most needed. During this period, the Orbital puts out the equivalent of a 1,000 CCA conventional
lead-acid unit.

"And it can do this even when left unused for weeks or months, like someone might do with a vehicle at a summer home or a "weekend special" vehicle like a classic
sports car.

The Orbital's lower resistance also means faster charging time, and the construction prevents stratifying, or uneven wear of the conventional plates as the battery
discharges.

High under hood temperatures, a traditional enemy of a car battery, has its effect minimized by the Orbital Select as its sealed construction eliminates electrolyte loss
due to evaporation while its element design minimizes the effects on grids and active material.

The Exide Select Orbital joins the other premium products in the company's Select line, including batteries, starters and accessories.

Exide Corporation, with annual revenues of more than $2.2 billion and operations in 19 countries, is a world leader in the manufacture of automotive and industrial lead
acid batteries. In fact, the Exide Orbital Select is produced in the company's Malpica factory in Spain.

Further information about Exide's business and products is available at www.Exideworld.com.

Back to main press release page

  MJ
 
 
  --------------7F5C4DD29CDA7B1168A14A75-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 09:32:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17041; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:25:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:25:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4E1AB1.79F6C2FF easynet.be> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:26:09 +0100 From: Robert Hoffmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Sweet-VTA@egroups.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com Subject: The Anti-Gravity Stone Of Shivapur References: <384694511.978139147756.JavaMail.root web170-mc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KL0mU1.0.-94.HgXJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7919/agstone.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:07:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29037; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:05:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:05:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001230125533.007a7100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:55:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: <381906636.978128394529.JavaMail.root web434-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"V0cc-2.0.U57.iFYJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >As one who has had modest success raising money for explorers - I find what >Shoulders wrote to be very much on target. As one who has had enormous success raising money for explorers and for my own business ventures, I think he is full of nonsense. I think he has no idea what he is talking about, and he is his own worst enemy. Let us assume his technical claims are correct, and more or less the way Hal Fox reported them at the ANS. In that case, he should stop yapping, kvetching and carrying on about how unfair life is. It is unfair to everyone. All businessmen and people engaged in risky ventures, including me, have always encountered the kind of resistance he describes. It did not stop us, and it would not stop him. He should put away the self-pity, take off the hairshirt, and stuff the wounded martyr routine. He should get off his butt and take a few simple steps to build credibilty and promote his invention. He will soon be SWIMMING in money, and every university in the country will be anxious to assist him. On the other hand, if the technical claims are incorrect, and his device is not over-unity, then he could not attract venture capital. He does not deserve it. Does the machine work? We don't know. Year after year he has refused to publish or help others replicate, so we have no way to judge. >He went from there to SRI where he became the father of the field of vacuum >microelectronics. Charles Spindt is the father of that field, and he is still at SRI. Shoulders may also have made important contributions; I wouldn't know. >Anyone who knows Ken is aware that he does extraordinary research in a most >professional manner. In that case he will have no difficulty convincing people his device produces excess energy. I could raise millions of dollars with it in a few months. > And, probably writes up experiments better than 99% of >those who do any kind of lab work. Then why hasn't he done so? What is stopping him? Why didn't he respond to my questions with some of his splendid prose, instead of a bucket of slop and idiotic evasions and excuses? He should not hide his light under a bushel, since he has such talent for exposition. He should explain his accomplishments in plain English, in a way that any businessman will grasp, and back them up with irrefutable, simple, direct experimental proof. >In my opinion, his writing is refreshingly original and the meaning can >always be derived without trouble. I have no difficulty understanding the meaning of his "Explorations" essay. It means he is a self-pitying jerk and a spoiled academic who has no idea what life is like for the rest of humanity. His essay tells me that he expects venture capitalists to kiss his ass and hand him money on a silver platter, without proof or a guarantee. If I had millions to invest, and I read this essay, it would be a cold day in Hell before I give him any cash. The same goes for essays and statements by Mills, Correa, Bearden, and a dozen other researchers in this benighted field. These people are engaged in a massive conspiracy to discredit their own research, sabotage financial support, and make themselves look like fools. Not one dollar should go to people with that kind of attitude! Experience teaches that they will only waste the money, regardless of the technical merits of their claims. Look how many years and how much money they have already wasted. It reminds me of the Internet bubble. Hundreds of billions of dollars have blown on "boy-genius Internet gurus" with upside-down business plans, and the same set of ego problems and the same basic inability to get the job done as Shoulders et al. Does that mean the Internet has no promise, and no one will ever make money on it? No, it means you must never hand over a barrel of money to a fool -- even when he seems to have brilliant ideas. It means you demand proof of an experiment and solid replication, or a positive cash flow in a business model. You stick to basics! No one get a free pass because he "acts" like a genius or he has a track record in vacuum microelectronics. Everyone has to pass the same tests. All scientists -- without exception -- must be independently replicated. >Explorers are rare birds. They deserve support. But, at the very least, >respect. In Ken's case, both - in spades. Says who?!? Why? They have to follow the rules just like everyone else. When they make their claims correctly, backed by solid experimental proof, then they deserve support. When they refuse to prove what they say they deserve nothing. I do not award Shoulders brownie points because he portrays himself as a brave, non-conformist, Heroic Scientist, with the "2001" soundtrack "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" cued in as background music. Take people like Tadahiko Mizuno, Ed Storms, Martin Fleischmann or Melvin Miles. They the genuine article: real, true-to-life, 21st Century Science Heros. They have published actual proof of their claims, and helped other replicate. Do they whine and kvetch? Do they act like non-conformists? Do they hum "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" in the shower? Do they turn their backs on institutions and promote themselves as Living Gods of Innovation? No! Never. They follow the norms. In fact, they define the norms. They are more conventional than the "skeptics" at the APS who attack them. If one of them had a device as convincing as Shoulders claims he has, they would soon convince the world, and have millions of dollars in funding. People like Mizuno and Storms work within the system -- or they try to, anyway -- even though they know better than anyone that the system is deeply corrupt. They also work outside the system. They do whatever is necessary, and promote their research in any promising venue. Like J. P. Joule, when the establishment turns them away, they rent a church to give the lecture. They will not be silenced. Shoulders has silenced himself! The establishment does not need to bury him. He eagerly dug his own grave and leaped into it, and now he complains he is stuck in a hole. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:08:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29018; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:05:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:05:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001230130604.007adb10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:06:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229214232.00a2fd90 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MZv9D3.0.K57.hFYJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >>Oh yes they did. More often than now. In California, where they keep good >>statistics, in-school crime rates and other juvenile crime dropped 70% to >>80% in the last decade. It is the same story everywhere in the U.S.: >>serious crime in and out of school has fallen by 40% to 80% > >Who said it has dropped? The police! They should know. >I've talked to my fair share of people, average >citizens, who say things are much worse today than in the past. You cannot trust people's "impressions." You have to go by actual statistics, and direct knowledge. Average citizens seldom experience crime directly, and they know little about it. You have to talk to police, judges, teachers in inner-city schools, and others on the front lines who deal with crime every day. >These >people were alive and mature back in the 'old days.' I trust their >judgement above the judgement of any government or media source. Does "any government" include the police?!? Why would they lie about crime statistics? I have talked to people who were alive and mature in 1890, 1906, 1925, the Great Depression. (They are dead now.) I have also read countless diaries, newspaper reports, and books from that era. Their impression was that crime was rampant. In Philadelphia, PA the police were too afraid to go into some neighborhoods. They handed over control of the streets to the gangs. Here in Georgia and the rest of the deep south there was open warfare between races. From 1880 to the 1920s hundreds of people were killed in open warefare. Bodies were dumped into mass graves or rivers, people who resisted were burned alive, entire towns were wiped off the map. These were wanton pogroms, like the ones in Russia and the "crystalnacht" attacks in Germany a few years later. I find it incredible that anyone would call this period of U.S. history "the good old days"! Good for who? If you could travel back in time and live as a black person, American Indian or other minority in Georgia for one day in 1920, you would return to present, kiss the ground, and declare that we are now living in the most enlightened, the most moral, the best, kindest era the nation has yet experienced. It isn't perfect. Much remains to be done. But it is incomparably better than the living nighmare you call the "good old days." At least people are allowed to vote and live in peace. >the television. As far as I can tell, things are getting worse on the >whole. In some areas, maybe better, but not averaged together. Things always get worse in some places and better in others. The numbers "averaged together" show beyond they are FAR better overall than they have been in a generation. Crime has dropped precipitously. No one can say why, or how long this trend will last. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:22:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32713; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:19:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:19:27 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Jed Rothwell Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:19:16 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001230130604.007adb10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"yHK3o.0.0_7.kSYJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 30-Dec-00, Jed Rothwell, wrote: [...] >If you could travel back in time and live as a black person, American >Indian or other minority in Georgia for one day in 1920, you would return >to present, kiss the ground, and declare that we are now living in the most >enlightened, the most moral, the best, kindest era the nation has yet >experienced. [...] Indeed, up until the time when the Clintonians entered The Whitehouse. History will record those *62 pardons* having been made :( -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 10:32:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03137; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:31:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:31:05 -0800 Message-ID: <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root web434-mc> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:31:00 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.226 Resent-Message-ID: <"8mKPQ2.0.tm.fdYJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What a tirade! The cockiness in these remarks is very sad. By the way Capp Spindt worked for Ken at SRI. At a Conference on vacuum microelectronics a couple of years ago, Ken was hailed as the father of the field. Creative talent in any field does not always mesh well with a business mentality. Jed, you might try a bit of introspection - to see how your intemperate rantings might be counterproductive in terms of the very objectives you profess with regard to breakthrough energy conversion systems. Mark Goldes ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: December 30, 2000 5:55:33 PM GMT Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mark Goldes wrote: >As one who has had modest success raising money for explorers - I find what >Shoulders wrote to be very much on target. As one who has had enormous success raising money for explorers and for my own business ventures, I think he is full of nonsense. I think he has no idea what he is talking about, and he is his own worst enemy. Let us assume his technical claims are correct, and more or less the way Hal Fox reported them at the ANS. In that case, he should stop yapping, kvetching and carrying on about how unfair life is. It is unfair to everyone. All businessmen and people engaged in risky ventures, including me, have always encountered the kind of resistance he describes. It did not stop us, and it would not stop him. He should put away the self-pity, take off the hairshirt, and stuff the wounded martyr routine. He should get off his butt and take a few simple steps to build credibilty and promote his invention. He will soon be SWIMMING in money, and every university in the country will be anxious to assist him. On the other hand, if the technical claims are incorrect, and his device is not over-unity, then he could not attract venture capital. He does not deserve it. Does the machine work? We don't know. Year after year he has refused to publish or help others replicate, so we have no way to judge. >He went from there to SRI where he became the father of the field of vacuum >microelectronics. Charles Spindt is the father of that field, and he is still at SRI. Shoulders may also have made important contributions; I wouldn't know. >Anyone who knows Ken is aware that he does extraordinary research in a most >professional manner. In that case he will have no difficulty convincing people his device produces excess energy. I could raise millions of dollars with it in a few months. > And, probably writes up experiments better than 99% of >those who do any kind of lab work. Then why hasn't he done so? What is stopping him? Why didn't he respond to my questions with some of his splendid prose, instead of a bucket of slop and idiotic evasions and excuses? He should not hide his light under a bushel, since he has such talent for exposition. He should explain his accomplishments in plain English, in a way that any businessman will grasp, and back them up with irrefutable, simple, direct experimental proof. >In my opinion, his writing is refreshingly original and the meaning can >always be derived without trouble. I have no difficulty understanding the meaning of his "Explorations" essay. It means he is a self-pitying jerk and a spoiled academic who has no idea what life is like for the rest of humanity. His essay tells me that he expects venture capitalists to kiss his ass and hand him money on a silver platter, without proof or a guarantee. If I had millions to invest, and I read this essay, it would be a cold day in Hell before I give him any cash. The same goes for essays and statements by Mills, Correa, Bearden, and a dozen other researchers in this benighted field. These people are engaged in a massive conspiracy to discredit their own research, sabotage financial support, and make themselves look like fools. Not one dollar should go to people with that kind of attitude! Experience teaches that they will only waste the money, regardless of the technical merits of their claims. Look how many years and how much money they have already wasted. It reminds me of the Internet bubble. Hundreds of billions of dollars have blown on "boy-genius Internet gurus" with upside-down business plans, and the same set of ego problems and the same basic inability to get the job done as Shoulders et al. Does that mean the Internet has no promise, and no one will ever make money on it? No, it means you must never hand over a barrel of money to a fool -- even when he seems to have brilliant ideas. It means you demand proof of an experiment and solid replication, or a positive cash flow in a business model. You stick to basics! No one get a free pass because he "acts" like a genius or he has a track record in vacuum microelectronics. Everyone has to pass the same tests. All scientists -- without exception -- must be independently replicated. >Explorers are rare birds. They deserve support. But, at the very least, >respect. In Ken's case, both - in spades. Says who?!? Why? They have to follow the rules just like everyone else. When they make their claims correctly, backed by solid experimental proof, then they deserve support. When they refuse to prove what they say they deserve nothing. I do not award Shoulders brownie points because he portrays himself as a brave, non-conformist, Heroic Scientist, with the "2001" soundtrack "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" cued in as background music. Take people like Tadahiko Mizuno, Ed Storms, Martin Fleischmann or Melvin Miles. They the genuine article: real, true-to-life, 21st Century Science Heros. They have published actual proof of their claims, and helped other replicate. Do they whine and kvetch? Do they act like non-conformists? Do they hum "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" in the shower? Do they turn their backs on institutions and promote themselves as Living Gods of Innovation? No! Never. They follow the norms. In fact, they define the norms. They are more conventional than the "skeptics" at the APS who attack them. If one of them had a device as convincing as Shoulders claims he has, they would soon convince the world, and have millions of dollars in funding. People like Mizuno and Storms work within the system -- or they try to, anyway -- even though they know better than anyone that the system is deeply corrupt. They also work outside the system. They do whatever is necessary, and promote their research in any promising venue. Like J. P. Joule, when the establishment turns them away, they rent a church to give the lecture. They will not be silenced. Shoulders has silenced himself! The establishment does not need to bury him. He eagerly dug his own grave and leaped into it, and now he complains he is stuck in a hole. - Jed ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 11:17:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15035; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:11:41 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [170.164.240.35] From: "James Ostrowski" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:11:07 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Dec 2000 19:11:08.0051 (UTC) FILETIME=[438E7630:01C07294] Resent-Message-ID: <"yJfKg.0.rg3.iDZJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >I hate to be a wet blanket but the skeptic in me is screaming "Foul" This isn't field hockey and there are no referees. If you need a referee join a moderated group. >Please be aware that Microcap only considers LCR relationships here and >does not take into consideration the actual spacial delay involved in >transiting a signal. There will be a delay. My plots of the control runs show the delays that are expected from a "transmission line" system that can best be descibed as innefficient and antiquated, as in: signal in-> choke->filter->choke->filter->choke->filter [etc..]->signal out This system would be laughable were it not so pervasive. The fact that it has not been improved upon in over 100 years makes it scarier than it is funny. > Computer simulations are >wonderful design tools, Microcap is designed to optimize existing >electronic designs I have used it many times to peak out a butterworth >filter or tone detector for AFSK modems. The reason that Microcap does >not show a delay is that nobody ever bothered to tell the program there >should be one. As I just pointed out the delays are visible in the control runs. Therefore Microcap IS programmed to produce delays when and where they bave been observed to appear in actual practice, and not produce them when and where they will not appear. >Do you remember inputting actual wire liengths? What are "liengths"? :) No one in their right mind in this business would try to add the physical length of a capacitor plate foil, for example which, when unrolled from inside the capacitor would stretch out maybe two or three feet, depending on the cap's mfd value, or the wire wrapping around a hollow inductor tube and demand that these lengths be computed into any calculation of "delays" due to some theorized light speed barrier. The delays that do exist are the result of mere inertia, not wire lengths. It takes time for a circuit element to respond with current after a specific AC voltage is applied. First there are microcurrents, then milliamps and finally amps. The more sensitive your detection apparatus is the quicker you will see the responses. The higher the impedances are from the detector to the ground sink the sooner you will see the voltages, because these voltages do not have to push very many electrons, THIS HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with relativity, Newtonian inertia explains all the observed delays. In the case of transmission lines there are huge amounts of electrons to move out of the way before a voltage appears, this is due to the large displacement currents involved as the wire gets longer. Merely raising the characteristic impedances will minimize the displacement currents and the delay times until the appearance of the voltage from the application of a current source will devolve towards unmeasurably brief, as my simulations and actual hardwire experiments show. >here is where you will find your delay. As I said, the delays have been found and since they show up as expected in a circuit deliberately designed to produce them we can confidently assume it performs an adequate analysis of the same physical circuit component connected in some other fashion. Jim Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 12:27:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02647; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:24:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:24:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A457159.A4105E71 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:45:30 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Dec 29, 2000] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FUyUt.0.5f.qHaJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Dec 29, 2000 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:56:14 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Dec 00 Washington, DC 1. QI: CAN KIRLIAN PHOTOGRAPHY REVEAL MENTAL IMPAIRMENT? Two weeks ago, WN promised to say more about a Dec 12 story on ABC Good Morning America about the body's "Qi" or "energy field" (WN 15 Dec 00). Qi plays a major role in ancient Chinese medicine. Touch therapists claim they sense Qi with their hands, but failed a simple double-blind test administered by a nine-year old (WN 3 Apr 98). Imagine how excited they were, therefore, to learn from ABC that modern science gives the aura "respectability." In the Kirlian method, an object is placed between the plates of a high- voltage capacitor, with one plate covered by photographic film. An "aura" appears to surround the developed image. For at least 25 years it's been known that the Kirlian "aura" is just corona discharge. However, New-Age physicist Beverly Rubik of the Institute for Frontier Science used a Kirlian image to diagnose deficiencies in ABC's Science Correspondent, a PhD physicist, who gushed that "some of the things she said hit close to home." 2. ARMS CONTROL: THE BUSH TEAM TAKES A HARD LINE. During the campaign, George W. Bush promised to reaffirm the existing moratorium on nuclear testing. Although nobody expects the Bush administration to support CTBT, who thought Nixon would open up relations with China? Bush promises a national missile defense, and yesterday he picked Donald Rumsfeld to be Defense Secretary. Rumsfeld thinks Star Wars is the greatest story ever told. Colin Powell also loves Star Wars, but Moscow steadfastly refuses to amend the 1972 ABM Treaty. Powell is the only advisor to Bush who is on record supporting CTBT. Condoleeza Rice, Bush's National Security Advisor, opposes CTBT, but favors a continued moratorium on testing. Dick Cheney, of course, also opposes CTBT, favors NMD, and is likely to push for development of a new mini-nuke. 3. PREDICTIONS FOR 2001: GASP! DID WHAT'S NEW MISS ONE IN 2000? WN predicted that BlackLight Power would offer an IPO. However, the Patent Office balked at issuing patents for hydrinos, and BLP was forced to postpone the dream of a $1B stock offering. WN courageously acknowledges its first miss, and boldly moves on. * The ABC science correspondent will report that dowsing rods really work. He'll praise his own objectivity. * MIR will splatter all across France, outraging the French. Everyone else will be relieved. * Those who claim that power lines and cell phones are linked to cancer will now find that Play Station-2 is even worse. * An investigation will be launched into the sinister forces that control the falling of dead oak trees. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 14:02:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29587; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:58:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:58:31 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4E1AB1.79F6C2FF easynet.be> References: <384694511.978139147756.JavaMail.root web170-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:58:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: The Anti-Gravity Stone Of Shivapur Cc: Sweet-VTA egroups.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com Resent-Message-ID: <"d__So1.0.DE7.6gbJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:26 PM -0500 12/30/00, Robert Hoffmann wrote: >http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7919/agstone.htm that's an interesting site in general, I especially like the page describing the 'blumlien gap', altho the name is mispelled, it should be Blumlein. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7919/blumlien.htm I read about Alan Blumlein in a British magazine, Electronics World (Mar 2000 issue). he is another 'unsung hero' of electronics, having patented 'binaural sound' (ie, stereo) back in 1931. he was also instrumental in the development of British radar systems. he was killed in a plane crash in 1942. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 14:34:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05635; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:30:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:30:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:30:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root web434-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gFLhL.0.xN1.R8cJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >What a tirade! > >The cockiness in these remarks is very sad. It is not cockiness. I express disappointment and resignation, having watched people like Mills and Shoulders destroy themselves year after year. >Creative talent in any field does not always mesh well with a business >mentality. No one is talking about business or business mentalities. I said that Shoulders should be held to the same standards as Fleischmann, Mizuno or Storms. He should use the same methods and venues as they do, and try to communicate the way they do. These are scientific and academic standards, not those of business. If I were holding Shoulders to the standards of business, I would demand he show a business plan showing how a profit can be made with his machine. That would be inappropriate. >Jed, you might try a bit of introspection - to see how your intemperate >rantings might be counterproductive in terms of the very objectives you >profess with regard to breakthrough energy conversion systems. How can I be productive or counterproductive with people like this? Shoulders will not tell me -- or anyone else apparently -- how he measures input and output. He will not play the game, or define his claims in ways that might make sense to a venture capitalist or engineer. He has not done anything to encourage a replication, which the only way to achieve scientific credibility. There is no chance he will succeed. Nothing I say can make matters worse. Mark's comments sound almost as if he would blame me, and my so-called intemperate comments, for the mess that Shoulders and others in this field have brought upon themselves. Some CF and o-u scientists do blame me. These people are attacking the messenger instead of heeding the message. They should realize that I am more temperate, reasonable and open minded than establishment commentators at the APS or Scientific American. Any businessman or venture capitalist would agree with what I say, and most are more vociferous than I am. Investors say they will not touch CF or other o-u claims because of attitudes and ego problems like Shoulders' -- because of the Inventor's Disease. Should I keep this a secret? Am I doing him a disservice by telling him why investors do not return his calls? Years ago, at a CF conference, a man with hundreds of millions of dollars was thinking of investing in the field. He ate lunch with a well known CF scientist Dr. X, who suffers from a lurid, full-blown case of Inventor's Disease. Dr. X had no idea who he was talking to (and still doesn't). He spent the meal attacking the establishment and denouncing his colleagues at the conference. He had nothing good to say about cold fusion research -- even his own! He was talking to an intelligent stranger at a physics conference, yet it never occurred to him to explain his own work in a positive light. Later, Mr. I. told me he was appalled, he would never give Dr. X support, and if this is the kind of person who does CF it was a waste of time coming to the meeting. I tried to repair the damage and steer Mr. I toward people like Storms, who understand the norms of science, and know how to behave in polite society. Dr. X never realized who he had alienated with his blathering. Not only did he destroy his own prospects, he nearly destroyed several other peoples'. When Shoulders publishes essays like this, he does as much harm to himself as Dr. X did that day. Does Shoulders believe that I am the only person who finds his attitude appalling? After he published his lunatic response to my questions last month, a couple of well-known scientists called me on the telephone to say they were outraged. They were more upset than I was. Fifty years from now, if anyone remembers CF and historians review these messages, they will say that Storms, Miles, and I represent mainstream, sensible, conventional, businesslike thinking. Extremists on both sides -- Shoulders and APS -- should have listened to us. They should have don things by the book. If CF does prevail, it will be because a small cadre of scientists did play by the rules, they published and were replicated, and eventually truth won out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 14:44:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08123; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:37:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:37:35 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001230162027.00a2f1c0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-Sender: stk mailhost.sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:30:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001230130604.007adb10 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229214232.00a2fd90 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7qk-O3.0.r-1.lEcJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >The police! They should know. Whose police have you been talking to? >You cannot trust people's "impressions." You have to go by actual >statistics, and direct knowledge. Average citizens seldom experience crime >directly, and they know little about it. You have to talk to police, >judges, teachers in inner-city schools, and others on the front lines who >deal with crime every day. If that I so, that I can't trust what people say, then why should I trust the media, police or government? They are just people. I know about the inner city problems, I've seen the problems. But when multitudes of people, just passive observers who would have no reason to lie, tell me that things are worse, I tend to believe them. I tend to disbelieve those who could use it to get personal gain. >incredible >that anyone would call this period of U.S. history "the good old days"! >Good for who? I didn't call it the good old days, please refrain from putting words in my mouth. But I stand by what I said: things have been better. They probably will get better in some future time, but they haven't yet. >If you could travel back in time and live as a black person, American >Indian or other minority in Georgia for one day in 1920, you would return >to present, kiss the ground, and declare that we are now living in the most >enlightened, the most moral, the best, kindest era the nation has yet >experienced. What if you were a white male? There is still severe racism. And it is on both sides. I don't like any of it. >It isn't perfect. Much remains to be done. But it is >incomparably better than the living nighmare you call the "good old days." I didn't call it the "good old days" ! Is this why you get in so many arguments with people over cold fusion? I said 'old days' as in referring to times past, not the state they were in. >At least people are allowed to vote and live in peace. My idea of peace is for the 'powers that be' to leave me alone, and let me live my life without having to make sure I hired enough of one type of ethnic group, without having my constitutional rights taken from me bit by bit, and without being told how I can raise a family. It worked in the past, it can work now. Regulation to an extent is good, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. >Things always get worse in some places and better in others. The numbers >"averaged together" show beyond they are FAR better overall than they have >been in a generation. Crime has dropped precipitously. I trust a person over any statistic. Statistics are cold, uncaring, unthinking. People are ever so different. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 15:08:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17812; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:05:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:05:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001230180620.007a91c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:06:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001230130604.007adb10 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001229214232.00a2fd90 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ngCJB2.0.AM4.9fcJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: >was open warfare between races. From 1880 to the 1920s hundreds of people >were killed in open warefare. Bodies were dumped into mass graves or >rivers, people who resisted were burned alive, entire towns were wiped off >the map. These were wanton pogroms, like the ones in Russia and the >"crystalnacht" attacks in Germany a few years later. I'd like to clarify that a little. People often make flippant comments about Nazis and fascism. They compare every little injustice to the Holocaust. That irks me, since my relatives in Europe were wiped out by the Nazis. I just made that comparison myself, but I meant that the riots and destruction in Atlanta was as bad as Crystalnacht -- and no worse. Of course it never got as bad as what followed in Germany! U.S. riots were similar to the pogrom in Russia, which were officially sactioned riots & massacres intended to uproot minorities and take away their land and goods. In the U.S., the violence triggered one of the largest mass migrations in the history of the world, from the South to the North. In the early 20th century, talk of race war and annihilation were not limited to Germany. I have a book of essays written in the 1900 to commemorate the new century. It was a compendium of articles by leading experts, politicians and scientists in the U.S., originally published in many newspapers. Three or four of the essays casually predicted that by the year 2000, "the American Indian and black races will be exterminated from North America." They said "exterminate," and they meant it. One predicted "general race war, which of course the 'darkies' will lose." These were not only ex-Confederate authors. People in the North also took it for granted this would happen. History is grimmer and nastier than many people realize. Frankly, people who talk of the "good old days" make me sick. As I said, I wish I could thow them back into that hellhole, and make them suffer 24 hours of it. There is a book I highly recommend which should cure romantic delusions about the past: "The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible!," by Otto Bettmann, of the Bettmann archives. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 15:22:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22513; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:20:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001230182050.007a9d90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:20:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001230162027.00a2f1c0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> References: <3.0.6.32.20001230130604.007adb10 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001229214232.00a2fd90 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229162930.02d4dec0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001229144319.00a278f0 mailhost.sunherald.infi .net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001229144019.02d86e68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pOBky3.0.hV5.mscJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >>The police! They should know. > >Whose police have you been talking to? Police all over the country, for crying out loud. Read the newspapers, read the statistics. >If that I so, that I can't trust what people say, then why should I trust >the media, police or government? Because it is their JOB to report these things accurately. If they are caught lying they will be in DEEP TROUBLE, and maybe even go to jail, and their bosses will be voted out of office. This is real life, not a thriller novel. Naturally the police try put the crime numbers in a good light, and they downplay the seriousness of crime, but nobody covers up the number of children shot to death in schools and on the streets! They are just people. I know about the >inner city problems, I've seen the problems. But when multitudes of people, >just passive observers who would have no reason to lie, tell me that things >are worse, I tend to believe them. Believe them all you like, but the actual numbers of dead bodies and robberies prove they are wrong. Take you pick: people's impressions, or hard facts. I always go for facts myself. >I trust a person over any statistic. Statistics are cold, uncaring, >unthinking. People are ever so different. I am just the opposite. I trust stastics because they are cold, uncaring -- and objective. I do not trust subjective, non-expert observers. I have seen far too many of them dismiss cold fusion "on a hunch" without bothering to look at those cold, uncaring, quantitative facts. Feelings are a wonderful guide for living life or falling in love, but they have no place in social policy or science. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 16:35:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11805; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:34:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:34:16 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:33:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root web434-mc> <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA11778 Resent-Message-ID: <"lpHKO.0.Nu2.8ydJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:30:59 -0500: [snip] >Fifty years from now, if anyone remembers CF and historians review these >messages, they will say that Storms, Miles, and I represent mainstream, >sensible, conventional, businesslike thinking. Extremists on both sides -- >Shoulders and APS -- should have listened to us. They should have don >things by the book. If CF does prevail, it will be because a small cadre of >scientists did play by the rules, they published and were replicated, and >eventually truth won out. > >- Jed [snip] Hi Jed, I think you might have more luck getting your message across if you dropped some of the hyperbole, and just stuck to the facts. I realise that you think the rhetoric makes an impression, and it does, however the response is usually emotional rather than reasoned. IOW, instead of taking your message to heart, you just get peoples back's up, and they end up hating you instead of mending their ways. IMO this isn't the way to help the field along either. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 17:27:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27767; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:27:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:27:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4E8B29.11211190 informatics.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:26:01 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: Cutting Amorphous Cores Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ynwS92.0.nn6.fjeJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I will pose this question to Honeywell after the new year, but in the meantime I was wondering if anyone on this list has any knowledge or experience in cutting and grinding the tape wound amorphous cores as would be used in the MEG? Happy New year to All- Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 18:54:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19676; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:52:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:52:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:52:08 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Z Machine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mUfkC.0.Ip4.lzfJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hot fusion pathos: http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:37:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31198; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:34:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:34:25 -0800 Message-ID: <013501c072da$01265420$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223213036.00a163a0 pop3.atlantic.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20001224064701.00a2aec0@pop3.atlantic.net> Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:29:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"neWVw1.0.Od7.1bgJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael T. Huffman" To: Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 4:16 AM Subject: Re: Good Seti article from "Wired" >> > Right, and I've read that ZoneAlarm is one of the better ones. It would > limit access to the few thousand people that knew how to get around it at > least. You might check out TEMPEST to limit the last couple of hundred of people 8^) http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html "The purpose of the program was to introduce standards that would reduce the chances of "leakage" from devices used to process, transmit, or store sensitive information. TEMPEST computers and peripherals (printers, scanners, tape drives, mice, etc.) are used by government agencies and contractors to protect data from emanations monitoring. This is typically done by shielding the device (or sometimes a room or entire building) with copper or other conductive materials. (There are also active measures for "jamming" electromagnetic signals. Refer to some of the patents listed below.)" Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 19:47:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00811; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:44:27 -0800 Message-ID: <003601c072e3$fcda9520$1f8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Air Separtaion/Medical Oxygen Concentrator Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:41:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C072A0.E9833D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9qijF.0.WC.RkgJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C072A0.E9833D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These will produce 97% O2, but they will also concentrate things like NOx and SO2, or other molecules too large to go into the molecular sieve. http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C072A0.E9833D80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Air Separtaion.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Air Separtaion.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm Modified=007BB561E372C001A7 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C072A0.E9833D80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Dec 30 22:45:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA12139; Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:41:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:41:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A45974F.D8220836 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:27:28 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eugene F. Mallove" , Jed Rothwell , Vortex Subject: A Wonderous sight and hope for the future of CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D6h8Y3.0.bz2.AKjJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: December 30, 2000 Vortex, 'Gene and Jed, I had desired to see this from the beginning of Infinite Energy's start of publications, Yet I failed to see it anywhere on the local newsstands over the years. Today, while picking over the large selection of science and niche oriented magazines, I found a current, single copy of Infinite Energy. And it was an issue I have not even received in the mail yet. I do not know how long this has been going on but I have long since given up trying to look for an issue. What a surprise. I was tempted to buy it but decided not to do so, leaving that for a new soul to discover. I'll wait for mine. The minimum number of copies of a magazine I usually count are three. So this means I.E. was already bought by two persons. Great. At least the the word on cold fusion (and anything related) is more openly going out to the public. Its taken a long time to reach this level. Congratulations Infinite Energy!, the new year looks a little more brighter. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 00:42:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31747; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:41:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:41:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> References: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:41:46 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The Z Machine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"v-qtO.0.wl7.K5lJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - >Hot fusion pathos: > >http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html Geez no kidding, that's really bad. After forcing my way through about a third of it, I got ground down trying to decide which was worse: the 'content' or its 'presentation'. HF is such a tragically wasteful boondoggle it's not even funny, so I guess the sloppy prose they're serving at the paper Tinsley used to unlovingly call the "Gruniad" wins out. Phew! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 05:44:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09668; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 05:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 05:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 05:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: 1st INTL WORKSHOP ON FIELD PROPULSION, JAN 20-22 ENGLAND In-Reply-To: <000801c05cb5$315a2080$6ac82cc3 v4y5k7> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0Z31-2.0.lM2.QWpJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 2 Dec 2000, KKLINGON wrote: > Please check out our website about the meeting, at: www.workshop.cwc.net > and if You feel that You can recommend it to people, please consider > putting in a link to Your sites, plus emailing anyone You think might be > interested. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 06:40:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19771; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 06:38:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 06:38:32 -0800 Message-ID: <002e01c0733f$5c109b60$378f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Lynda Witz" , Cc: , , , Subject: Re: Oxygen Concentrators vs Bottled Oxygen Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 07:35:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C072FC.35358980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FSXCb1.0.mq4.dJqJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C072FC.35358980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look at how the oxygen concentrator pushes the air (~78% N2 + 21% O2)into a "molecular sieve" and the larger oxygen molecule along with any larger molecules such as atmospheric pollution, NOx, SOx, Aldehydes, etc., are concentrated and fed into the patient's oxygen supply hose. http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm Along with this, concentrated-pressurized oxygen (O2) along with water vapor (H2O) in air or in the O2 humidifier bottles, can react i.e.., oxidize non-toxic chemicals to toxic/hazardous chemicals: 1, 2 SO2 + O2 + 2 H2O ---> 2 H2SO4 Sulphuric Acid! 2, 2 NO + O2 + H2O ----> HNO3 + HNO2 Nitric and Nitrous Acids! Since the allowed concentration of these pollutants is in the parts per billion one might be better off on bottled O2. At a few liters of O2 per minute this O2 concentrator effect can fill a small room to life-threatening levels of toxic chemicals in a matter of hours. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C072FC.35358980 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Air Separtaion.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Air Separtaion.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.zeochem.com/applications/air.htm Modified=40299A5E3B73C001D0 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C072FC.35358980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 09:07:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23290; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:05:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:05:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001231120612.007a0840 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:06:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root web434-mc> <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5BSdZ1.0.qh5.YTsJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hi Jed, > >I think you might have more luck getting your message across if you dropped >some of the hyperbole, and just stuck to the facts. There was no hyperbole in what I wrote. I made no extreme demands. I say Shoulders should publish a few basic engineering facts about his experiments. I say he should do what Storms, Miles and the others have done. I am not the only one who thinks that replications are essential to establish credibility. The story about the Investor at the ICCF conference was completely factual. It is a fact that other scientists are appalled by Shoulders' attitude. I realise that you think >the rhetoric makes an impression, and it does, however the response is >usually emotional rather than reasoned. Where is the rhetoric? Where is the emotion? Why is it bad form to demand that experiments be published, peer-reviewed, and replicated?!? Why should Shoulders not be subjected to the same set of standards we apply to McKubre? Does he have some kind of special dispensation because he considers himself uniquely creative? IOW, instead of taking your message >to heart, you just get peoples back's up, and they end up hating you instead >of mending their ways. IMO this isn't the way to help the field along >either. I repeat, nothing I could say would be as damaging as what Shoulders said. He is the one who is flouting tradition, and trying to set new rules for himself. He is an elitist. His essay is rhetoric and inflamatory hyperbole. I am trying to point that out, yet people attack me, instead of him. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 09:15:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25925; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:14:19 -0800 Message-ID: <380556596.978282856335.JavaMail.root web584-mc> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:14:16 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.154 Resent-Message-ID: <"i-rC23.0._K6.hbsJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: December 30, 2000 10:30:59 PM GMT Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mark Goldes wrote: >What a tirade! > >The cockiness in these remarks is very sad. It is not cockiness. I express disappointment and resignation, having watched people like Mills and Shoulders destroy themselves year after year. I don't know Mills - but if the BLP website is any indication, he seems to be doing moderately well without paying heed to your point of view. A recent addition of more than 100 pages can be found on BLPs website under "Business" with the title "Presentation". It begins by listing a large number of labs that have had some success in replicating his work. His ego and his theory aside, his progress toward the market seems increasingly professional. His approach can be faulted. I would suggest a different and sharper focus - but it might be useful for folks on this list to monitor what he has made available. >Creative talent in any field does not always mesh well with a business >mentality. No one is talking about business or business mentalities. I said that Shoulders should be held to the same standards as Fleischmann, Mizuno or Storms. He should use the same methods and venues as they do, and try to communicate the way they do. These are scientific and academic standards, not those of business. If I were holding Shoulders to the standards of business, I would demand he show a business plan showing how a profit can be made with his machine. That would be inappropriate. Perhaps the conventional approach has contributed to the very morass that surrounds CF. Having spent most of my life in the shadow of Silicon Valley I've seen any number of surprises. Innovation can only benefit from a wide variety of approaches to financial support. The Angel community has always been many times the size of the formal VC firms. Since it is made up by a widely varying number of individuals - some are interested and capable of supporting work by Explorers - and indeed, in my experience and Ken's have done so. >Jed, you might try a bit of introspection - to see how your intemperate >rantings might be counterproductive in terms of the very objectives you >profess with regard to breakthrough energy conversion systems. How can I be productive or counterproductive with people like this? Shoulders will not tell me -- or anyone else apparently -- how he measures input and output. He will not play the game, or define his claims in ways that might make sense to a venture capitalist or engineer. He has not done anything to encourage a replication, which the only way to achieve scientific credibility. There is no chance he will succeed. Nothing I say can make matters worse. He is under no obligation to play the game on your terms. Anyone who knows Ken has no doubt of his scientific credibility. Mark's comments sound almost as if he would blame me, and my so-called intemperate comments, for the mess that Shoulders and others in this field have brought upon themselves. Some CF and o-u scientists do blame me. These people are attacking the messenger instead of heeding the message. They should realize that I am more temperate, reasonable and open minded than establishment commentators at the APS or Scientific American. Any businessman or venture capitalist would agree with what I say, and most are more vociferous than I am. Investors say they will not touch CF or other o-u claims because of attitudes and ego problems like Shoulders' -- because of the Inventor's Disease. Should I keep this a secret? Am I doing him a disservice by telling him why investors do not return his calls? Years ago, at a CF conference, a man with hundreds of millions of dollars was thinking of investing in the field. He ate lunch with a well known CF scientist Dr. X, who suffers from a lurid, full-blown case of Inventor's Disease. Dr. X had no idea who he was talking to (and still doesn't). He spent the meal attacking the establishment and denouncing his colleagues at the conference. He had nothing good to say about cold fusion research -- even his own! He was talking to an intelligent stranger at a physics conference, yet it never occurred to him to explain his own work in a positive light. Later, Mr. I. told me he was appalled, he would never give Dr. X support, and if this is the kind of person who does CF it was a waste of time coming to the meeting. I tried to repair the damage and steer Mr. I toward people like Storms, who understand the norms of science, and know how to behave in polite society. Dr. X never realized who he had alienated with his blathering. Not only did he destroy his own prospects, he nearly destroyed several other peoples'. When Shoulders publishes essays like this, he does as much harm to himself as Dr. X did that day. I do not defend the scientist you describe above. My concern is the ease with which you lump individuals into categories. In my experience inventors who work on the cutting edge are unique. Only a handful have a genuine contribution to make and we do not yet have an institutional framework that readily supports them. Does Shoulders believe that I am the only person who finds his attitude appalling? After he published his lunatic response to my questions last month, a couple of well-known scientists called me on the telephone to say they were outraged. They were more upset than I was. I am not defending that response. As I told Ken at the time, that is the kind of letter I write and stick in a desk drawer. When reading it the next day it invariably ends up in the circular file. Fifty years from now, if anyone remembers CF and historians review these messages, they will say that Storms, Miles, and I represent mainstream, sensible, conventional, businesslike thinking. Extremists on both sides -- Shoulders and APS -- should have listened to us. They should have don things by the book. If CF does prevail, it will be because a small cadre of scientists did play by the rules, they published and were replicated, and eventually truth won out. Jed Perhaps. But I doubt it. It is precisely the mainstream, conventional, businesslike, thinking that Ken and I suggest may be a larger part of the problem than you are ready to recognize. May the New Millenium see New Energy - at many different levels of meaning. Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 09:18:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26728; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:17:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4F6CFA.CE5ED6DF csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:29:30 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS References: <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root web434-mc> <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001231120612.007a0840@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wi8v_1.0.YX6.besJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmmmm, Jed does have a point there. Exactly how long can you keep something "secret" for proprietary reasons and not produce at least SOMETHING which can be tested by others? I can see both sides of the argument and while it is a valid point I think Robin is calling your attention to HOW you are making the point. Ok, I'll go away now. MJ (everyone else's conscience with none of his own) Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >Hi Jed, > > > >I think you might have more luck getting your message across if you dropped > >some of the hyperbole, and just stuck to the facts. > > There was no hyperbole in what I wrote. I made no extreme demands. I say > Shoulders should publish a few basic engineering facts about his > experiments. I say he should do what Storms, Miles and the others have > done. I am not the only one who thinks that replications are essential to > establish credibility. The story about the Investor at the ICCF conference > was completely factual. It is a fact that other scientists are appalled by > Shoulders' attitude. > > I realise that you think > >the rhetoric makes an impression, and it does, however the response is > >usually emotional rather than reasoned. > > Where is the rhetoric? Where is the emotion? Why is it bad form to demand > that experiments be published, peer-reviewed, and replicated?!? Why should > Shoulders not be subjected to the same set of standards we apply to > McKubre? Does he have some kind of special dispensation because he > considers himself uniquely creative? > > IOW, instead of taking your message > >to heart, you just get peoples back's up, and they end up hating you instead > >of mending their ways. IMO this isn't the way to help the field along > >either. > > I repeat, nothing I could say would be as damaging as what Shoulders said. > He is the one who is flouting tradition, and trying to set new rules for > himself. He is an elitist. His essay is rhetoric and inflamatory hyperbole. > I am trying to point that out, yet people attack me, instead of him. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 10:08:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10236; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:07:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <00f701c0735c$7dd88060$378f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: LOX is Better than an O2 Concentrator Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:02:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"PhN0u3.0.oV2.7NtJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Respiratory Therapy Provider substituted a 50 pound Dewar of Liquid Oxygen (LOX) for the O2 Concentrator. About 5 days of O2 at 2 liters/minute. This "direct feed" of O2 without the oxidation of atmospheric pollutants (NOx, SOx, and Aldehydes) plus household chemicals such as Scotchgard (Perfluorooctanyl Sulphate) and cooking "odors," is a bit easier on the airways/lungs. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 11:11:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26978; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:08:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4F86AA.80EC9D14 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:19:06 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: A nice fuel cell site Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------773A2FBE114A1A445DD28C37" Resent-Message-ID: <"Knn4Y3.0.Jb6.mGuJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------773A2FBE114A1A445DD28C37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Here is a fun little fuel cell site that someone referred me to. It even has it's own listbot list and it seems pretty well made. MJ Fuel Cell Site: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/ --------------773A2FBE114A1A445DD28C37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All,
   Here is a fun little fuel cell site that someone referred me to. It even has it's own listbot list and it seems pretty well made.
MJ
Fuel Cell Site: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/ --------------773A2FBE114A1A445DD28C37-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 14:19:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16103; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:19:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:19:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4FB36D.731F2D65 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:30:05 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Electrolysis software Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XipA63.0.Kx3.M3xJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a software that lets you build virtual electrochemical cells and test their performance (free demo download available). http://www.compuchem.com/ecells.htm MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 17:23:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28709; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:23:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:23:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4FDE70.9E00F263 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:33:36 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: An interesting H2 and Aluminum site Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jrRSX3.0.J07.ulzJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I am now editor on a search engine open directory project (hydrogen/energy section) and am getting links submitted for me to edit and if I find some nice ones I will forward them to you. Here is one; http://www.aluminum-power.com/ :-) MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 17:38:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01097; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:38:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:38:05 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001231194452.00a38540 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:46:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: The Z Machine In-Reply-To: References: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"fR_pt2.0.3H.yzzJw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:41 PM 12/30/00 -1000, you wrote: >Terry - > >>Hot fusion pathos: >> >>http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html > >Geez no kidding, that's really bad. > >After forcing my way through about a third of it, I got ground down trying >to decide which was worse: the 'content' or its 'presentation'. HF is such >a tragically wasteful boondoggle it's not even funny, so I guess the >sloppy prose they're serving at the paper Tinsley used to unlovingly call >the "Gruniad" wins out. Phew! > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI I have to agree... no usable substance. Although I do happen to enjoy camping in the desert _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:11:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09596; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:10:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:10:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4FE9E7.53F48917 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:22:32 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: A hydrogen solution for global energy by Via-Tek Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UVua81.0.pL2.YS-Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The prime objective will be the development and integration of the fuel cell and a Hydrogen Gas Generator or Green Algae Hydrogen Cell. This combination would enable the company to manufacture a complete electrical producing plant. http://www.via-tek.com/ MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 18:14:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10873; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:13:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:13:48 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 13:13:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80 pop.mindspring.com> <383627343.978201060773.JavaMail.root@web434-mc> <3.0.6.32.20001230173059.007a6d80@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20001231120612.007a0840@pop.min dspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001231120612.007a0840 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA10840 Resent-Message-ID: <"BWJiF1.0.hf2.SV-Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:06:12 -0500: Hi Jed, I'm not attacking you for the content of your message. Actually, I agree with you. It's just that you don't flinch from calling a spade a spade - in spades. In short you use tactlessness as a tool, and it clearly isn't appreciated. KS's responses to you are a typical result. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 19:42:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29488; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:41:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4FFF2B.4DDC0576 csrlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:53:16 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Early Writings By Michael Faraday Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5E3113ACC1F13DD44A5E8E6B" Resent-Message-ID: <"WCR-r.0.cC7.zn_Jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------5E3113ACC1F13DD44A5E8E6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, For the last year or so I have been transcribing some of Faraday's "Researches" from a source that I found and sharing them with a small group of friends. After thinking it over I would like to offer everyone the chance to read what I have done to date. I am way behind on new material but there are a hundred or so pages there for you to read. His stuff has helped me out a great deal. Here's your link: http://FaradayLetters.listbot.com/ Just click on the "review archives" link and you can read it. Happy New Year, MJ --------------5E3113ACC1F13DD44A5E8E6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All,
   For the last year or so I have been transcribing some of Faraday's "Researches" from a source that I found and sharing them with a small group of friends. After thinking it over I would like to offer everyone the chance to read what I have done to date. I am way behind on new material but there are a hundred or so pages there for you to read. His stuff has helped me out a great deal. Here's your link: http://FaradayLetters.listbot.com/
Just click on the "review archives" link and you can read it.
Happy New Year,
MJ --------------5E3113ACC1F13DD44A5E8E6B-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 20:02:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA01834; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:01:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:01:54 -0800 Message-ID: <20010101040152.4385.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:01:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: The Z Machine To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"5Gt_82.0.YS.o40Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html > As a "hot fusion scientist," I have to say that this story bears very little relation to reality. The scientific content is negligible, and the fantasy is embarassingly bad. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 20:31:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05837; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:20:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:20:57 -0800 Message-ID: <016e01c073b2$40b43a20$378f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <20010101040152.4385.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: The Z Machine Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:18:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"C0sTe2.0.7R1.eM0Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Schaffer To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: Re: The Z Machine Michael J, Schaffer wrote: > > > > http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html > > > As a "hot fusion scientist," I have to say that this story bears very > little relation to reality. The scientific content is negligible, and the > fantasy is embarassingly bad. I'll second that, Michael. Jerry Yonas and Pace Van Devender would be ROFL!. Anyone can "beam over" and check the Sandia Pulse Power Facility for themselves. Regards, Frederick > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 20:45:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07865; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:35:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:35:55 -0800 Message-ID: <20010101043552.25667.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:35:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"OSajh3.0.kw1.ha0Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: James Ostrowski wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I see you responded to my request at the bottom of this letter to look at > IIC6 and comment on it (before I asked!...is THAT FTL?). I prepared this > response to your post last night and I'm in a bit of a rush right now, > but I will study what you wrote later when I have more time. > > Many thanks, > > Jim Ostrowski > ------ Hi Jim. I happened to be on vacation, read my email early, and your posts started coming in. Pure coincidence. I had some time (unusual), so I sent some responses immediately. - Mike ------------- JO wrote: Unfortunately none of this explains the results obtained by my hardwire experiment of a few years ago or the MicroCAP 2 results, which are an argument from the same authority as the antenna designers presumably use, ie: Standard EM theory as embodied in the MicroCAP program. Now if the antenna designers are using a different theory, successful or not in the case of antenna design, on what basis should we believe this theory and not Microcap or the hardwire experiment in the case of "transmission lines", which, by definition are not antennas? Let us agree at least on what we are going to call the circuit element I have termed "transmission line" and you want to call something else, I guess. Is it an "antenna"? A capacitor? A "transformer"? ...what? -JO ----------- MS writes: Microcap and other circuit analysis programs set up a matrix of circuit equations, which they then solve. They get numerical approximations to circuit problems to a high degree of accuracy nowadays. I have no complaints against them. Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism can be solved---analytically in a few cases and numerically by suitable computer programs. Antenna design is a science based on Maxwell's equations (I taught a course on antennas to electrical engineering students for acouple of years). Waveguides, transmission lines, microwave circuits are other sciences based on Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's equations appear to describe the behavior of electric and magnetic fields in the physical world to a high degree of accuracy. Circuit equations are not Maxwell's equations. Circuit equations do not describe the behavior of electric and magnetic fields. The set of circuit equations (Kirchhoff's equations) is the low-frequency limit of Maxwell's equations taken in a way to represent idealizations of common electrical circuit elements. Kirchhoff's equations are very useful, because they approximate real electrical behavior well enough to include a wide range of applications of interest, and they are much simpler to solve than Maxwell's equations. > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > There are some problems with your simulation in Immediate > Interstellar Communication(1), which I will abreviate as IIC1. > Somehow, > you miscalculated the inductance per unit length of RG-59U coaxial > cable. > Your values yield a cable with characteristic impedance Zo = > sqrt(Ls/Cs) > = sqrt(3uH/100pF) = 173 ohm. > > ------------ > > Correct. However, replacing the 73 ohm resistors with 173 ohm resistors > will > only increase the amplitude of the delayed output waveform somewhat, > while > making no significant alteration to the output waveform's position on the > time axis. -jo > ------------- > MS: > > Here Ls and Cs are inductance and capacitance per LC circuit section, > respectively. > > When I work back from C' = 16.9 pF/ft = 55.4 pF/m, I find your L' = > 1.66 > uH/m. I don't know how you calculated 12 uH for 7.5 m; you didn't say. > However, RG-59U has only about 0.295 uH/m. Anyway, your values of Ls > and > Cs yield a delay per circuit LC section of ts = sqrt(LsCs) = sqrt(3uH > * > 100 pf) = 17.3 ns. This works out to about 1.04e8 m/s or 0.35 c, not > 0.65 > c as you say. > ----------- > > OK. However this means that the Land C parameters actually used in the > sim > support my statement you refer to: > > "The velocity factor, or percent of light speed that supposedly can be > obtained by a signal pulse passed through RG-59U is about 65 percent. > In > the transient analysis plot below we do not see the risetime begin > until > 40 ns after the initial pulse, which places the signal transfer > velocity > performance of this theoretical transmission line model well below the > value that actual coaxial cable would be expected to yield IN ANY > POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE, according to the theory that transmission line > signal delays are imposed by some kind of "Relativistic" speed of > light > limitation." > ------------ > MS: > > The delay for 4 sections is 4(17.3 ns) = 69 ns. Your simulation shows > a > delay to half amplitude at the output end of about 75 ns, not so > different, especially when we recall that only 4 LC circuit sections > is > not enough to make a very good transmission line model, and you added > an > extra Cs to the output side. The circuit in your IIC2 post is twice as > many LC sections, so we expect the circuit to show a delay of 8(17.3 > ns) > = 138 ns. Its delay to half amplitude at the output side is about 145 > ns, > again in pretty good agreement. Clearly, you cannot conclude, > > "...places the signal transfer velocity performance of this > theoretical > transmission line model well below the value that actual coaxial cable > would be expected to yield IN ANY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE..." > ----------- > > "Clearly you cannot conclude" just doesn't make sense. The performance of > a transmission line with the paramaters specified will NOT yield a delay > time < RG59U's delay. > > That was the intent. Presumably no matter what we do with a line using > these parameters we will end up with delays exceeding what one would > expect from RG59U in an actual experiment. -JO > > ---------- > MS: > You just made a mistake on the inductance. > ---------- > > The benefit of this "mistake" accrues to the argument that > the model should NOT yield delay times < standard coax. "under any > possible circumstance" > > If you read my post carefully, I did not say that the model was a > simulation of RG59U, in fact I stated that the model's velocity > factor was lower than that spec'd for RG59U, from which one can > specifically infer the fact that the parameters are stacked in favor > of longer delay times than standard coax should yield. > > Also this negates the idea that the circuit is attempting to > simulate RG59U. > > -JO > ------------ > MS: > I would also point out that here and elsewhere you place a 75 ohm or > 73 > ohm resistor across your signal generator, presumably to absorb any > reflected wave. If your generator is an infinite impedance current > source, then this is the correct placement. However, the MicroCAP > generator models seem to be ideal, zero impedance voltage sources > instead. The correct placement of the resistor is then IN SERIES with > the > source. Fortunately, you didn't run the simulation quite long enough > to > run into a reflection problem, so no harm done here. However, to > eliminate possible reflection problems in the future, you should place > the Zo-valued resistor in series with the source. ===== > ---------- > > Actually the generator models appear to be infinite impedance current > sources then. > > Assuming the opposite results in severe distortions of the input > squarewave. -JO > > --------------- > > MS: > > This CIRCUIT does NOT approximate a transmission line connected as you > describe, with the outer conductor no longer connected... This and > other > LC circuit approximations have some assumptions built into them, one > of > which is that there are TWO PROPERLY CONNECTED TERMINALS at each end. > --------------------- > > This point is well worth discussing at some length. > > We are still dealing with a length of "Transmission line cable" with the > same inductance and capacitance per unit of length as in the preceding > examples. What one chooses to call it seems relevant to the discussion > only > in terms of what this cable acts like when connected as specified.. > > I would prefer to call it an "extended capacitor" but there seems to > be some insistence that ANYTHING used to transmit a signal across > a distance long compared to the wavelength of the signal input a > "transmission line". So in order to conform to the conventional terms > I used transmission line. Nevertheless the line is more properly termed > a capacitor because that is the dominant mode for the way it will perform > as a lumped circuit element. > > If one then argues that in this circumstance one needs to analyse the > circuit as having distributed, instead of lumped, parameters then > one must retain the "distributed" parameter design used for the line > except for the "improperly" connected end terminations. > > "Improperly" connected, a "transmission line" seems to to become a > capacitor or a transformer depending on the dominant effects on the > signal when analysed. It appears to me that the effects when analyzed > are > dominantly capacitive. But even if the analysis showed more inductive > effects as would be produced by a transformer then you could call it a > lumped parameter transformer and not a "transmission line". Either way > you end up with a circuit element that behaves the same way as it's > lumped parameter equivalent, in which case you can no longer call it > a "transmission line", I suppose. > > This seems to me to be a catch 22! > > In the one case (the control experiment) we have to use a distributed > parameter description of what the circuit element is: A transmission > line. > > But if we do that and hook up this "transmission line" (an individual > circuit element) some other way, then magically this "circuit element" > can no longer be called a "transmission line"! > > And, although none of it's physical properties per unit of length are > changed, it seems you are saying that we can't use a distributed > parameter > model to describe these physical electrical properties! > > How does THIS happen? > > We HAVE TO CALL "IT" (the circuit element we are no longer allowed to > call a > "transmission line") SOMETHING!.... So what if we say transmission line > instead of capacitor, or inductor? The important thing is how it behaves > when analysed for the way it's connected in the schematic as an > individual > circuit element. > > - JO > ------------------------ > > MS: > > More specifically, the inductance due to the magnetic flux linked > between > the outer conductor and ground is much larger than the small > inductance > due to the magnetic flux linked in the small space between the inner > and > outer conductors. You put a smaller inductance here instead. > > Furthermore, you need to calculate and include in the circuit the > distributed mutual inductance between the inner and outer conductors, > too. This is one of the complications that the simplified circuit > models > to avoid! The other complication is that the outer conductor has > distributed capacitance to ground. Your model has neither of these > real > physical properties. > > ------------------------- > > I don't see how it's fair to add complexity to a circuit element (the > "transmission line", "capacitor" "transformer" - whatever) that > demonstrates the delays that are agreed to be present and expected when > connected in the typical way. > > If one adds complexity to the circuit element in one case, we should add > complexity to the same circuit element in the other. > > But why do that when the delays anticipated in the standard configuration > appear in the simpler model? - JO > > ----------------------------------- > MS: > > Therefore, it cannot correctly predict the physical outcome. > ----------------------------------- > > I would reiterate the objection raised above. We must compare apples with > apples and oranges with oranges. The circuit element we call a > "transmission > line" in one case must be the same circuit element defined by THE SAME > electrical properties in the other. Otherwise you are experimenting on > two > DIFFERENT things. -JO > > --------------------------------- > > MS: > > The outer distributed capacitance is crucial---it is what sets the > velocity of waves on the outside of a cable. BTW, antenna designers > use this external wave when they make 75-to-300 ohm baluns out of > coax cable. It's not faster than light, but usually it's only just > a bit less. > ----------------------- > > Unfortunately none of this explains the results obtained by my hardwire > experiment of a few years ago or the MicroCAP 2 results, which are an > argument from the same authority as the antenna designers presumably use, > ie: Standard EM theory as embodied in the MicroCAP program. > > Now if the antenna designers are using a different theory, successful or > not in the case of antenna design, on what basis should we believe this > theory and not Microcap or the hardwire experiment in the case of > "transmission lines", which, by definition are not antennas? > > Let us agree at least on what we are going to call the circuit element > I have termed "transmission line" and you want to call something else, > I guess. Is it an "antenna"? A capacitor? A "transformer"? ...what? -JO > > ------------------ > MS: > > Re your computed results: > > The rectangular wave component of your computed output comes from the > unusual, centertapped resistive voltage divider constituted by the > pair > of 2.5 k resistors. The square wave gets to the output end faster than > light because the signal travels through the string of inductors, > which > in an electric circuit APPROXIMATION have no delay. Your FTL arises > from > neglect of the distributed capacitance between the outer conductor and > ground in your circuit model. > > On another point, on a long time scale of a ns or so, you would see > droop set in due to the capacitance in series with the resistors. > Finally, the differentiated (spike) component of your computed input > comes from the fact that your generator initially faces a high > inductive > impedance. After an L/R time, which is a couple of ns here, this spike > decays. ===== Michael J. Schaffer > ------------------------ > > If one replaces the 2.5k resistors with 1 meg ohm at both ends, one will > see the spikes disappear completely and the waveforms at either end > are identical square waves. What does this mean, in your opinion? > > Also when you have time please look at IIC6, "Extracting Hidden FTL > signals > (etc)". > > In this experiment we see both the delayed components of the signal > and the immediate. How can you account for this result if you do not > think information can be transmitted FTL? > > Jim Ostrowski > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Dec 31 22:26:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA29004; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:26:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:26:07 -0800 Message-ID: <20010101062605.10445.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:26:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Immediate Interstellar Communications To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"H9ze.0.657._B2Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I apologize to Vortexians for a spurious version of this that went out when I inadvertently hit the "send" button. James Ostrowski wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I see you responded to my request at the bottom of this letter to look at > IIC6 and comment on it (before I asked!...is THAT FTL?). I prepared this > response to your post last night and I'm in a bit of a rush right now, > but I will study what you wrote later when I have more time. > > Many thanks, > > Jim Ostrowski > ------ Hi Jim. I happened to be on vacation, was reading my email early, and your posts started coming in. Pure coincidence. I had some time (unusual), so I sent some responses immediately. - Mike ------------- JO wrote: Unfortunately none of this explains the results obtained by my hardwire experiment of a few years ago or the MicroCAP 2 results, which are an argument from the same authority as the antenna designers presumably use, ie: Standard EM theory as embodied in the MicroCAP program. Now if the antenna designers are using a different theory, successful or not in the case of antenna design, on what basis should we believe this theory and not Microcap or the hardwire experiment in the case of "transmission lines", which, by definition are not antennas? [snip] -JO ----------- MS writes: Microcap and other circuit analysis programs set up a matrix of CIRCUIT equations, which they then solve. They get numerical approximations to circuit problems to a high degree of accuracy nowadays. The computer takes your numbers, turns its crank and spits back numbers. I have no complaints against them. I have used circuit analysis programs to solve complicated circuits. I've also used them to design a pulse line, analyze a vacuum system and calculate the attenuation of neutral gas impinging on a hot plasma. As long as you can convert the problem at hand into a set of equations strictly analogous to circuit equations, you can get meaningful answers. The critical point is, the analogy must be rigorously correct if the spit-out numbers are to have any relation to the physical-world problem you want to calculate. Maxwell's equations of ELECTROMAGNETISM can be solved---analytically in a few cases and numerically by suitable computer programs. Antenna design is a science based on Maxwell's equations (I taught a course on antennas to electrical engineering students for acouple of years). Waveguides, transmission lines, microwave circuits are other sciences based on Maxwell's equations. Antennas are more complicated than the others I listed here, but they all involve waves that vary in SPACE and TIME. Maxwell's equations appear to describe the behavior of electric and magnetic fields in the physical world to a high degree of accuracy. Circuit equations are not Maxwell's equations. Circuit equations do not describe the behavior of electric and magnetic fields. The set of circuit equations (Kirchhoff's equations) is the low-frequency limit of Maxwell's equations taken in a way to represent idealizations of common electrical circuit elements. Kirchhoff's equations are very useful, because they approximate real electrical behavior well enough to include a wide range of applications of interest, and they are much simpler to solve than Maxwell's equations. Kirchhoff's equations contain time, but they do not contain any spatial quantity, a quantity that has dimensions of length, like meter, in it. Therefore, they are mathematically incapable of calculating a velocity, which has units of length/time. Capacitors, inductors and resistors in Kirchhoff's circuit equations are abstractions and are divorced from any concept of size or speed. Maxwell's equations are a larger mathematical set than Kirchhoff's equations. Maxwell's equations contain Kirchhoff's equations. Kirchhoff's equations do not contain Maxwell's equations. Kirchhoff's equations do not substitute for Maxwell's equations. However, they can sometimes be used to approximately represent one or another aspect of electromagnetism. This is what you are trying to do. It has to be done judiciously, because so much of reality is missing from the K equations. There are many EM field situations the K equations simply can't represent at all. The K equations can give startling nonphysical results. For example, you make a point that the wave speed along a simple unbalanced transmission line model made up of a ladder of LC circuit sections can be made as slow as one wants. True, and this is one way to make analog delay lines that fit in a small box. One can also make the wave speed as fast as one wants, including faster than light, simply by choosing L and C to be sufficiently small. It's not a physical result, though, because the circuit equations have no velocity, as I pointed out above. It turns out that when the inductance and capacitance per unit length of a line, L' and C', respectively, are calculated in accordance with Maxwell's equations, the wave speed is bounded from above by the speed of light. Another example of the limitations of the LC ladder circuit led you to write, in response to my observation about terminations and voltage vs. current sources: > ---------- > Actually the generator models appear to be infinite impedance current > sources then. > > Assuming the opposite results in severe distortions of the input > squarewave. -JO > --------------- MS continues: Actually, the Microcap generator models are voltage sources. The severe distortions you observe arise because the LG ladder does not have a constant characteristic impedance Zo at all frequencies. The circuit's impedance is Zo only at low frequencies, namely frequencies much less than 1/[2*pi*sqrt(Ls*Cs)]. Here Ls and Cs are the inductance and capacitance, respectively, in one ladder section. Your square wave contains lots of energy well above this limit, so you get distortion. The LC ladder circuit does not represent transmission lines at high frequency. You should use caution when drawing conclusions about transmission lines from a circuit that does not accurately model a transmission line. ------ JO wrote: > In the one case (the control experiment) we have to use a distributed > parameter description of what the circuit element is: A transmission > line. > > But if we do that and hook up this "transmission line" (an individual > circuit element) some other way, then magically this "circuit element" > can no longer be called a "transmission line"! > ... > I would reiterate the objection raised above. We must compare apples with > apples and oranges with oranges. The circuit element we call a > "transmission line" in one case must be the same circuit element > defined by THE SAME electrical properties in the other. ------- MS responds: This is just a snip out of a long reply by Jim to one of my replies. The LC ladder transmission line, for all its limitations, does exhibit some important behaviors of a real transmission, notably propagation of waves. The validity of the LC ladder as an ANALOG of a line depends on there being equal currents in and out of a pair of terminals at the input end and again, equal currents in and out of a pair of terminals at the output end. The general question is, what is a physically accurate analog or model of a transmission line when you do not drive it in this way? Your connection comprises a 3-wire transmission line system---the two coax conductors and ground. Yes, ground is an important conductor here, too, because it carries return current back to your generator from the output end of the coax. The distributed L and C to ground must be included in a circuit model if there is to be any chance of it being a useful analog of real physical behavior. This is not a new problem. Very early in the business of electric power distribution by overhead lines, engineers had to face the problem of lightning strikes. The typical power line system consists of three phase conductors, ground and a lightning "arrestor" wire. A typical lightning strike injects current into one conductor and removes an equal current from ground. The typical wave form is approximately triangular, with roughly 5 us rise time and 100 us decay. It is important to understand the propagation the the resulting wave along the multiconductor transmission line. This problem was solved long ago. It cannot be modeled by a single LC ladder network. Your 3-conductor system is simpler, but it also cannot be modeled by a single LC ladder. No matter what you want to call your LC ladder circuit component in your connection, it is not an accurate analogy of the actual physical wire line you have in mind. I agree with you that your LC ladder circuit always has the same invariant properties. I disagree with your claim that these properties represent a real coax cable connected as you envision. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/