I think the effect is a thrust = developed by=20 "heat flow/phonon drag" similar to what I'm pursuing
for = propellent-less=20 spacecraft propulsion. In principle the Peltier device is acting as a = Heat=20 Engine,
albeit an inefficient one, but, much more efficient and = simple than=20 an Ion Propulsion device
where state-of-the-art units require 125 Kw = per=20 pound (275 watts/gram) of thrust, and require carrying the=20 Xenon
propellant.

I think you have already beaten that. =20 :-)

Regards, Frederick

http://pbfred.tripod.com

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0AF0A.1F7EA0A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 17:05:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15101; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:00:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:00:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments vs Xenon Ion Propulsion Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:51:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"WEg4C3.0.qh3.mY0jw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick; Thank you for your input. I am not really equipped to say whether or not the Peltier force has anything to do with the model you describe. With each passing experiment, I become more convinced of the reality of the Peltier force, however there is still quite a ways to go. For now, I am hesitant to pin a model or theory on something that was the result of an intuitive hunch, combined with serendipitous discovery. I remain empirical, until I can better characterize the effect. NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments vs Xenon Ion Propulsion > 500 watts for the 601HP Thruster (~0.8 amps at 625 volts) 0.018 newtons > > 4500 watts for the 702 Thruster (~7.25 amps at 625 volts) 0.165 newtons > > http://www.hsc.com/factsheets/xips/xips.html > > Can the Peltier beat that in vacuum, Nick? > > Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 17:24:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05160; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:20:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:20:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> References: <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:19:55 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"0krWM1.0.YG1.6r0jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott - Any thought about re-doing the experiment with a thicker heat shunt? Nick's experiments recently seem to have uncovered a potential reason why yours didn't work: the idea that a device that thermally saturates too fast doesn't make a weight change, or at least one slow enough to show on the scale. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 18:44:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18300; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:43:55 -0800 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:43:19 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> Resent-Message-ID: <"4X42i3.0.rT4.g32jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:19 PM 3/17/2001 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Any thought about re-doing the experiment with a thicker heat shunt? >Nick's experiments recently seem to have uncovered a potential reason why >yours didn't work: the idea that a device that thermally saturates too >fast doesn't make a weight change, or at least one slow enough to show on >the scale. Yeah, I'm sure thinking about looking at this again. I didn't use any heat shunt around my devices. Actually I tried one and it didn't make all that much difference. Of course, my operating protocol may have eliminated the need for the shunt. I always left the device on for no longer than 5-7 seconds and then allow a minute or two for it to come back nearly to room temperature. Under these conditions, I was getting "full heat flow" for the duration of my on periods. Nick, what are the physical dimensions of your new larger devices? Mine are about 1.5" square. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 19:10:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21761; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:08:36 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default><026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer><002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:59:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"Clf6a3.0.xJ5.qQ2jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Yeah, I'm sure thinking about looking at this again. I didn't use any heat > shunt around my devices. Actually I tried one and it didn't make all that > much difference. Of course, my operating protocol may have eliminated the > need for the shunt. I always left the device on for no longer than 5-7 > seconds and then allow a minute or two for it to come back nearly to room > temperature. Under these conditions, I was getting "full heat flow" for > the duration of my on periods. > > Nick, what are the physical dimensions of your new larger devices? Mine > are about 1.5" square. > ******* The earlier units (that seemed to work better despite lower power) were Melcor CP1.0 - 71 - 06L; about 7/8" on a side - 14watt at 3 amps The new breed, that most assuredly needs MAJOR heat sinking or thermal shunting away from the device, is indeed about 1.4 inches on a side; being Melcor CP1.0-127- 06L rated at 25 watts at about 3 amps. I would suggest making a wide pita bread shaped pinched envelope of heavy copper foil, or a dual copper disc sandwich with a shunting flange at the rim, made from a couple of 3" conflat gaskets. Use plenty of heat sink goo, or better yet, thin layers of thermally conductive epoxy. The faces of foil or sheet envelope elements need to be secured against warping and bending away from the ceramic end faces of the peltier. With no, or too little, sheathing or shunting, even shots of just one or two seconds seem to be a coin toss. I also am still thinking that even with only a short duration of overheating, the Z factor of the peltier Bi2Te3 drops because the Se and Sb dopants get leached into the bridging solder. NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 19:40:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05235; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:32:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:32:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:33:51 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"Jd-09.0.gH1.Dn2jw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:59 PM 3/17/2001 -0500, Nick Reiter wrote: > With no, or too little, sheathing or shunting, even shots of just one or >two seconds seem to be a coin toss. I also am still thinking that even with >only a short duration of overheating, the Z factor of the peltier Bi2Te3 >drops because the Se and Sb dopants get leached into the bridging solder. Now this is weird. With the stiffer leads, I got nice "strong" steady effects (~10 milligrams) that would last for 5-10 seconds without diminishing. The effect was in the same direction you report AND it reversed when I reversed the polarity. Then I went to the 0.0005" thick Cu foil leads and, at least to casual observance, the effect disappeared. In other words, I never saw anything that was a "coin toss" about my effects, despite the lack of heat shunting. Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate the heat do you? That gets it as hot as possible as quickly as possible...I think. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 17 20:20:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04235; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:16:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:16:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB4357E.90CC45B3 enter.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:11:42 -0500 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default><026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer><002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x437N.0.521.cQ3jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick (or anyone else who knows this), I'd like to try this out. Where can I purchase some of these types of peltier junctions inexpensively? DR Nick Reiter wrote: > ******* The earlier units (that seemed to work better despite lower power) > were Melcor CP1.0 - 71 - 06L; about 7/8" on a side - 14watt at 3 amps > The new breed, that most assuredly needs MAJOR heat sinking or thermal > shunting away from the device, is indeed about 1.4 inches on a side; being > Melcor CP1.0-127- 06L rated at 25 watts at about 3 amps. > I would suggest making a wide pita bread shaped pinched envelope of heavy > copper foil, or a dual copper disc sandwich with a shunting flange at the > rim, made from a couple of 3" conflat gaskets. Use plenty of heat sink goo, > or better yet, thin layers of thermally conductive epoxy. The faces of foil > or sheet envelope elements need to be secured against warping and bending > away from the ceramic end faces of the peltier. > With no, or too little, sheathing or shunting, even shots of just one or > two seconds seem to be a coin toss. I also am still thinking that even with > only a short duration of overheating, the Z factor of the peltier Bi2Te3 > drops because the Se and Sb dopants get leached into the bridging solder. > > NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 00:28:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10279; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:11:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:11:47 -0800 (PST) From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:10:36 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3ab66c8f.121287020 mail.midiowa.net> References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id AAA10258 Resent-Message-ID: <"PmXU_.0.XW2.1t6jw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:33:51 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the >device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate >the heat do you? That's a point that caused me to wonder. If it's the heat flow, by itself, causing the weight gain/loss, then recirculating the heat should cancel the effect. Assuming the "Reiter" effect is real, the heating appears to be incidental, if necessary in this case, to the effect. That is, some process inside the Peltier device is causing the weight gain/loss with a side effect of transferring heat. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 01:00:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15654; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:53:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:53:13 -0800 Message-ID: <009601c0af80$789e7860$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" , References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428@earthtech.org> <3ab66c8f.121287020 mail.midiowa.net> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:53:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"0Ob_E.0.Wq3.uT7jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean T. Miller" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:10 AM Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Dean T. Miller wrote: > On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:33:51 -0600, Scott Little > wrote: > > >Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the > >device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate > >the heat do you? > > That's a point that caused me to wonder. > > If it's the heat flow, by itself, causing the weight gain/loss, then > recirculating the heat should cancel the effect. > > Assuming the "Reiter" effect is real, the heating appears to be > incidental, if necessary in this case, to the effect. I say necessary. I.e., the flow of heat (phonon scattering) is causing the effect, making it a passive heat engine that can develop thrust thus conserving energy/momentum. > That is, some > process inside the Peltier device is causing the weight gain/loss with > a side effect of transferring heat. The heavier leads/heat-shunts are making the heat readily available. This should work good in a vacuum. Regards, Frederick > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 02:00:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23530; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:57:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:57:25 -0800 X-Sent: 18 Mar 2001 09:57:20 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:52:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c0af91$2b6482e0$03462126 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3ab66c8f.121287020 mail.midiowa.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"hdYsB1.0.Vl5.4Q8jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Dean T. Miller [mailto:dtmiller midiowa.net] Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:11 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:33:51 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the >device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate >the heat do you? That's a point that caused me to wonder. If it's the heat flow, by itself, causing the weight gain/loss, then recirculating the heat should cancel the effect. Assuming the "Reiter" effect is real, the heating appears to be incidental, if necessary in this case, to the effect. That is, some process inside the Peltier device is causing the weight gain/loss with a side effect of transferring heat. ***At http:/pbfred.tripod.com/peltier.htm I have posted a modification of Nick Reiter's drawing of his Peltier device which is sandwiched between to Cu discs. Here is the caption to this modification: "Fig. 1A Here is a modified drawing of Nick Reiter's Peltier device which is sandwiched between two Cu discs. The straight red arrows show how he believes the heat will flow when powered. The four wiggly red arrows show how I think the heat would flow in order for the weight loss to be explained by my gravity theory. For the device to loose weight according to my theory, heat must flow downwards through a curved surface. At the edges, the top would be hot and the bottom would be cold and if the heat flows somewhat in the way depicted by the wiggly red arrows, this would produce the conditions for the radial conduction of heat that is necessary for the gravitational force to be produced according to my theory." Peter Fred http://pbfred.tripod.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 04:20:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07241; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:15:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:15:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 03:26:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Resent-Message-ID: <"Xg8wl3.0.3n1.VRAjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:52 AM 3/18/1, Peter Fred wrote: >***At http:/pbfred.tripod.com/peltier.htm I have posted a modification of >Peter Fred > >http://pbfred.tripod.com/ Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 04:21:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07662; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:19:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:19:47 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:15:11 -0500 (EST) From: David Cyganski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428 earthtech.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jMNlt1.0.Yt1.ZVAjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Scott Little wrote: > Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the > device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate > the heat do you? That gets it as hot as possible as quickly as > possible...I think. To obtain a quality negative of Nick's result I would say you must duplicate his heat envelope system first. Once that is done, if the effect is seen by you, then the time comes to try different heat sinking options as this will explore the origins and optimization of the effect for future engineering. What's unreasonable with your suggested change of protocol? Nothing giving any classical effect. But...we are certainly looking at a non-classical effect if Nick's result is not artifactual. If there is some new X-charge that is being pumped by the Peltier in addition to heat then it's perhaps its circulation that is important as in some analog to magnetic field generation by a charge-current. I don't believe now is the time to accidently alter physics which is invisible to us through our ignorance if that is what is going on. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 05:36:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11194; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:31:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:31:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:32:59 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010318072937.029aa310 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"OM6e.0.mk2.iYBjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:15 AM 3/18/2001 -0500, David Cyganski wrote: >To obtain a quality negative of Nick's result I would say you >must duplicate his heat envelope system first. Once that is done, >if the effect is seen by you, then the time comes to try different >heat sinking options as this will explore the origins and optimization >of the effect for future engineering. Of course, I agree. That's why I tried a heat shunt made of thick Cu foil in my first round of experiments. I found it did not noticeably alter the magnitude of the effect. I didn't bother to see if it allowed the device to run longer... Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 05:40:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA18908; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:36:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:36:53 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c0afaf$2620df40$473dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default><026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer><002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default><5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317212918.029b4428@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments - answers to questions Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:27:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"w-Yva.0.Md4.rdBjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen; See my inserted comments below - I will try to answer everybody's questions > Now this is weird. With the stiffer leads, I got nice "strong" steady > effects (~10 milligrams) that would last for 5-10 seconds without > diminishing. The effect was in the same direction you report AND it > reversed when I reversed the polarity. Then I went to the 0.0005" thick Cu > foil leads and, at least to casual observance, the effect disappeared. In > other words, I never saw anything that was a "coin toss" about my effects, > despite the lack of heat shunting. ******* And I've not an explanation for it myself either. Unless somehow, the leads are playing a role in the thermoelectric effect. I do know that at a very technical level, there should be a Thompson Effect coming into play at the leads. (A homogeneous conductor with current flow and a thermal gradient will either evolve or absorb heat along it's length) But I would think that the magnitude of the Thompson Effect would be minute compared to the Peltier Effect. > Also, wouldn't it be better just to put heat reservoirs on each face of the > device? I know they'd weigh more but you don't really want to recirculate > the heat do you? That gets it as hot as possible as quickly as > possible...I think. ******* Yes, this would indeed work, at least it seems to. With the latest round of better results using the larger Melcors, one can use two large discs or squares of sheet copper. The operative word here is adequate. It is nigh uncanny how fast the 25 watt Peltiers will get even a large hunk of copper hotter than blazes. And the requirement to stabilize it against warping off the ceramic surface is critical. One would think that aluminum would work as well, however I just do not get as good results with even heavier aluminum. I don't think it draws the heat away fast enough (the thermal conductivity of Al is about 1/2 that of copper) The envelope / recirculation idea requires just as robust material as if one used reservoirs. I had been in touch with Melcor to inquire the following: if the thermal transport through a Peltier module could be put in terms of a velocity or speed (as one would say that copper has a speed of thermal conduction) what would this be? My guess is that it is enormously fast, or at least as fast as the charge carriers (electrons and holes). Melcor has no idea, though they said they would dig through their R&D files to see if anything came up. ********* To David R. - One could pick up Peltiers from a number of mail order surplus electronics places. Marlin P. Jones has them. Or you could order from Melcor - do a search, they are on-line with a good website. The CP series of Peltiers range from about $10 to about $50. The ones I have ordered are $13 and $18 for smaller or larger respectively. ********* Why does the effect seem to work in a recirculating envelope? A couple of idle thoughts: 1. Perhaps there is some unusual effect that manifests or accompanies the (in my mind) paradoxical transport of quantized "heat" on charge carriers, that doesn't occur when heat is transported the "old fashioned" way by atom and lattice jiggling. In this case, the recirculating heat in the copper adds no "x" component. 2. What about velocity? If the speed of thermal transport through the P and N Bi2Te3 is enormously fast compared to copper or aluminum, then perhaps one could model it as a thermal "smoke ring". The propagation of thermal energy slows as it leaves the peltier and spreads out, to reconverge and accelerate again at the other side. 3. Yeah - just what about smoke rings...? hmmm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 05:48:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11815; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:36:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:36:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:37:38 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: <3AB4357E.90CC45B3 enter.net> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> Resent-Message-ID: <"If8z71.0.Xu2.8dBjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 PM 3/17/2001 -0500, David Rosignoli wrote: >Nick (or anyone else who knows this), > >I'd like to try this out. Where can I purchase some of these types of >peltier junctions inexpensively? David, your best bet is to but them directly from Melcor. I don't know if they have a minimum order but they do sell them in 1's and 2's. Or you could buy some from Herbach and Rademan: http://www.herbach.com/images/peltier.pdf but their prices are equal to or higher than Melcor, I believe. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 09:23:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28854; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:14:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB4EBE2.D152BB68 enter.net> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:09:54 -0500 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UAI4H1.0.h27.DqEjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks. I have been aware of Herbach for years. I just wanted to replicate the experiment with the same components. Changing elements of an experiment before it has been performed can lead to erroneous conclusions. I see a part CP1-71-06L. But Nick used a CP1-0-71-06C. What does the "C" suffix stand for? The "L" stands for "non-metallized hot and cold surface". (see http://www.melcor.com/cpseries.htm) Scott, what did you use? (part type/number) I know you said your peltier junction was 1.5" square fed with 2.5A. Does it matter? Scott Little wrote: > >I'd like to try this out. Where can I purchase some of these types of > >peltier junctions inexpensively? > > David, your best bet is to but them directly from Melcor. I don't know if > they have a minimum order but they do sell them in 1's and 2's. Or you > could buy some from Herbach and Rademan: > > http://www.herbach.com/images/peltier.pdf > > but their prices are equal to or higher than Melcor, I believe. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 09:43:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01102; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:35:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:35:17 -0800 Message-ID: <00f201c0afc9$65b630a0$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:35:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C0AF97.1621A4C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ATlod3.0.8H.K7Fjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C0AF97.1621A4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Raman EffectIOW, when light shines on a good absorber, part of the = energy of a photon with momentum mc =3D Ephot/c can be given to a molecule/electron of the absorber = which has a new momentum mv'=20 which can give it a thrust much greater than that achievable by photon = "pressure". Regards, Frederick A New Type of Secondary Radiation C. V. Raman and K. S. Krishnan, Nature, 121(3048), 501, March 31, 1928 If we assume that the X-ray scattering of the 'unmodified' type observed = by Prof. Compton corresponds to the normal or average state of the atoms = and molecules, while the 'modified' scattering of altered wave-length = corresponds to their fluctuations from that state, it would follow that = we should expect also in the case of ordinary light two types of = scattering, one determined by the normal optical properties of the atoms = or molecules, and another representing the effect of their fluctuations = from their normal state. It accordingly becomes necessary to test = whether this is actually the case. The experiments we have made have = confirmed this anticipation, and shown that in every case in which light = is scattered by the molecules in dust-free liquids or gases, the diffuse = radiation of the ordinary kind, having the same wave-length as the = incident beam, is accompanied by a modified scattered radiation of = degraded frequency.=20 The new type of light scattering discovered by us naturally requires = very powerful illumination for its observation. In our experiments, a = beam of sunlight was converged successively by a telescope objective of = 18 cm. aperture and 230 cm. focal length, and by a second lens was = placed the scattering material, which is either a liquid (carefully = purified by repeated distillation in vacuo) or its dust-free vapour. To = detect the presence of a modified scattered radiation, the method of = complementary light-filters was used. A blue-violet filter, when coupled = with a yellow-green filter and placed in the incident light, completely = extinguished the track of the light through the liquid or vapour. The = reappearance of the track when the yellow filter is transferred to a = place between it and the observer's eye is proof of the existence of a = modified scattered radiation. Spectroscopic confirmation is also = available.=20 Some sixty different common liquids have been examined in this way, and = every one of them showed the effect in greater or less degree. That the = effect is a true scattering, and secondly by its polarisation, which is = in many cases quire strong and comparable with the polarisation of the = ordinary scattering. The investigation is naturally much more difficult = in the case of gases and vapours, owing to the excessive feebleness of = the effect. Nevertheless, when the vapour is of sufficient density, for = example with ether or amylene, the modified scattering is readily = demonstrable.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C0AF97.1621A4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Raman Effect

IOW, when light shines on a good = absorber, part of=20 the energy of a photon with momentum

mc =3D Ephot/c can be given to a=20 molecule/electron of the absorber which has a new momentum mv' =

which can give it a thrust much greater = than that=20 achievable by photon "pressure".

Regards, = Frederick

A New Type of Secondary Radiation

C. V. Raman and K. S. Krishnan, Nature, 121(3048), 501, = March 31,=20 1928

If we assume that the X-ray scattering of the 'unmodified' = type=20 observed by Prof. Compton corresponds to the normal or average state of = the=20 atoms and molecules, while the 'modified' scattering of altered = wave-length=20 corresponds to their fluctuations from that state, it would follow that = we=20 should expect also in the case of ordinary light two types of = scattering, one=20 determined by the normal optical properties of the atoms or molecules, = and=20 another representing the effect of their fluctuations from their normal = state.=20 It accordingly becomes necessary to test whether this is actually the = case. The=20 experiments we have made have confirmed this anticipation, and shown = that in=20 every case in which light is scattered by the molecules in dust-free = liquids or=20 gases, the diffuse radiation of the ordinary kind, having the same = wave-length=20 as the incident beam, is accompanied by a modified scattered radiation = of=20 degraded frequency.=20

The new type of light scattering discovered by us naturally requires = very=20 powerful illumination for its observation. In our experiments, a beam of = sunlight was converged successively by a telescope objective of 18 cm. = aperture=20 and 230 cm. focal length, and by a second lens was placed the scattering = material, which is either a liquid (carefully purified by repeated = distillation=20 in vacuo) or its dust-free vapour. To detect the presence of a = modified=20 scattered radiation, the method of complementary light-filters was used. = A=20 blue-violet filter, when coupled with a yellow-green filter and placed = in the=20 incident light, completely extinguished the track of the light through = the=20 liquid or vapour. The reappearance of the track when the yellow filter = is=20 transferred to a place between it and the observer's eye is proof of the = existence of a modified scattered radiation. Spectroscopic confirmation = is also=20 available.=20

Some sixty different common liquids have been examined in this way, = and every=20 one of them showed the effect in greater or less degree. That the effect = is a=20 true scattering, and secondly by its polarisation, which is in many = cases quire=20 strong and comparable with the polarisation of the ordinary scattering. = The=20 investigation is naturally much more difficult in the case of gases and = vapours,=20 owing to the excessive feebleness of the effect. Nevertheless, when the = vapour=20 is of sufficient density, for example with ether or amylene, the = modified=20 scattering is readily demonstrable.

------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C0AF97.1621A4C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 09:56:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14228; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000701c0afd0$e3ed1e00$473dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f@default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00 abb280 earthtech.org> <3AB4EBE2.D152BB68@enter.net> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:28:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"1P8v4.0.EU3.y9Fjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David; Look again on Melcor's website. The CP 1.0 - 71 - 06L is what I used. I think in some places they designate it as CP 1 instead of 1.0 It's the same unit. The CP series is their standard line of TE modules. The also carry stacked, high temperature, mini, etc. Don't know what C in CP stands for though... NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Rosignoli" To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? > Thanks. I have been aware of Herbach for years. I just wanted to > replicate the experiment with the same components. Changing elements of > an experiment before it has been performed can lead to erroneous > conclusions. > > I see a part CP1-71-06L. But Nick used a CP1-0-71-06C. What does the "C" > suffix stand for? The "L" stands for "non-metallized hot and cold > surface". > (see http://www.melcor.com/cpseries.htm) > > Scott, what did you use? (part type/number) I know you said your peltier > junction was 1.5" square fed with 2.5A. > > Does it matter? > > > > Scott Little wrote: > > >I'd like to try this out. Where can I purchase some of these types of > > >peltier junctions inexpensively? > > > > David, your best bet is to but them directly from Melcor. I don't know if > > they have a minimum order but they do sell them in 1's and 2's. Or you > > could buy some from Herbach and Rademan: > > > > http://www.herbach.com/images/peltier.pdf > > > > but their prices are equal to or higher than Melcor, I believe. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 12:07:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00861; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:58:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:58:34 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:59:19 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: <3AB4EBE2.D152BB68 enter.net> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010318135244.02adb3b0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"IjnXi1.0.BD.eDHjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:09 PM 3/18/2001 -0500, David Rosignoli wrote: >Scott, what did you use? (part type/number) I know you said your peltier >junction was 1.5" square fed with 2.5A. I used some we had on hand, CP 1.4-127-06L, which should be the same ones that are contained within the assembly that H&R sells for $39.95....but Melcor sells them for about $25 each. I got them a while back from Melcor by asking them which of their modules goes into the typical electric ice chest. They are rated at 51 watts and 6 amps...I just wasn't driving it very hard in my experiments because I knew from previous experience that they would overheat fast. hmmmm....should I build a photo-switched battery pack like Nick's? No, that seems dumb because I can already make the effect vanish by switching to ultra-flexible current leads. Maybe I should try a more serious heat shunt and see if I can get the effect NOT to vanish with the ultra-flexible leads...!? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 14:37:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01269; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c0aff7$18491700$ca3dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default><026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce@computer><002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f@default><5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950@earthtech.org><001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f@default><5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb28 0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318135244.02adb3b0@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:02:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"GqNMc3.0.eJ.nAJjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Scott; See below inserted comments: > > I used some we had on hand, CP 1.4-127-06L, which should be the same ones > that are contained within the assembly that H&R sells for $39.95....but > Melcor sells them for about $25 each. I got them a while back from Melcor > by asking them which of their modules goes into the typical electric ice > chest. They are rated at 51 watts and 6 amps...I just wasn't driving it > very hard in my experiments because I knew from previous experience that > they would overheat fast. *******Yow, those sound like brutes! What is the maximum load limit on your milligram balance, with regards to accomodating large copper masses? Of course, one might hope that if the effect scales up, then you could go to a coarser resolution balance with a greater load limit. Maybe I should try a more serious heat > shunt and see if I can get the effect NOT to vanish with the ultra-flexible > leads...!? > ******** That would be my vote. Certainly, one would use whichever leads give the least mechanical resistance. Then go crazy with heat sinking or shunting and see what you get! When I finally progress to the point of trying to run a test at vacuum (necessitating that I achieve greater than 10 mg changes so I can use a small triple beam balance in the bell jar), I will certainly use the ultrathin foil. NR > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 15:02:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15073; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:00:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:00:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB53DF7.53866F2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:00:07 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318135244.02adb3b0@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oAiiv2.0.Rh3.vtJjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > hmmmm....should I build a photo-switched battery pack like Nick's? No, > that seems dumb because I can already make the effect vanish by switching > to ultra-flexible current leads. Maybe I should try a more serious heat > shunt and see if I can get the effect NOT to vanish with the ultra-flexible > leads...!? Hi Scott, You had also trimmed the leads of the cell. As I recall you did not tried ultra-flexible current leads with original long cell leads. Although we know thick leads are responsible for balance deviation, it may possible some other characteristics of the thickness (like heat conductivity) rather than stiffness are playing role (artifact or real). A lead configuration that I previously given at http://gravity.webhostme.com/images/fixations.jpg would suffice to remove mechanical artifact caused by thermal stress. According several hypothesizes, heat flow combined current flow may cause gravitational anomalies. It would be interesting to check these hypothesizes by decoupling peltier operation, heat flow trough wires and current flow. An interesting and easy setup is shunting the peltier cell with 6A diode and drive the cell with alternating current. In one phase current pass through the cell and other through the diode. So if the effect depends on heat flow and current flow combination, reversing the current alternately may be effective, by either to nullify the effect or boosting it. It would be also worth to drive the cell with alternate current (without the diode) at various frequencies against all odds. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 15:31:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07306; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:20:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:20:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:18:55 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-reply-to: <3AB53DF7.53866F2 verisoft.com.tr> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010318171647.029563b8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318135244.02adb3b0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"nw0e_1.0._n1.6BKjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:00 AM 3/19/2001 +0200, hamdi ucar wrote: >A lead configuration that I previously given at >http://gravity.webhostme.com/images/fixations.jpg >would suffice to remove mechanical artifact caused by thermal stress. Yes, I remember that good idea. I'll try it. >An interesting and easy setup is shunting the peltier cell with 6A diode >and drive the cell with alternating current. In one phase current pass >through the cell and other through the diode. So if the effect depends on >heat flow >and current flow combination, reversing the current alternately may be >effective, by >either to nullify the effect or boosting it. > >It would be also worth to drive the cell with alternate current (without >the diode) >at various frequencies against all odds. Good thinking! Nick you should try these ideas, too. Nick, my Mettler can take about 160 grams max. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 16:54:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18616; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:50:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:50:11 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c0b00f$b1e448e0$c99b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: SELL EDUCATIONAL SCIENCE LABORARTORY SUPPLIES Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:45:28 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0C21_01C0AFC2.751C9EA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"yGSmj1.0.lY4.2VLjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0C21_01C0AFC2.751C9EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable e-mail : eximcon mail.com =20 Phone : 171-699280 FAX 171-699280, 652282 EXPORT IMPORT CONSORTIUM 38 Azad Nagar, Jagadhri Road, AMBALA CANTT 133 006. (India) . MARCH 17, 2001 . Dear Sirs : . We invite enquiries for your laboratory supplies,=20 apparatus, instruments, glassware, hydrometers, thermometers .=20 S.P.Tuteja ------=_NextPart_000_0C21_01C0AFC2.751C9EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

e-mail : eximcon@mail.com    =
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------=_NextPart_000_0C21_01C0AFC2.751C9EA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 16:57:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22883; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:51:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:51:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003d01c0b00f$e353eca0$c99b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: Vacuum Discharge Tubes Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:28:10 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vrsQC3.0.Tb5.DWLjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am manufacturing vacuum discharge tubes, and use aluminium wire (14 SWG) electrode at the sides, fused in Soda Lime glass with dumet wire in Spectrum Analysis Tubes. I do try to degas the electrodes, but after a few minutes, 15-20 minutes of working with 4.5 to 6.0 KVolts current at 5-8 milliamps, the sides of the glass tubes around the electrodes starts getting blackened. Could some one advise how to properly degas, and for much time. Do I need to replace aluminium electrodes with some other metal, say nickel ? Where from could I get fluorescent & phosphorescent pigments for use in discharge tubes, like TV Picture tubes, etc ? . Sanjeev eximcon mail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 18:36:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15176; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:30:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:30:48 -0800 Message-ID: <20010319023040.2213.qmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:30:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Vacuum Discharge Tubes To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003d01c0b00f$e353eca0$c99b09ca eximcon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"N0KNp3.0.wi3.NzMjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: eximcon wrote: > I am manufacturing vacuum discharge tubes, and use aluminium > wire (14 SWG) electrode at the sides, fused in Soda Lime glass with > dumet wire in Spectrum Analysis Tubes. I do try to degas the electrodes, > but after a few minutes, 15-20 minutes of working with 4.5 to 6.0 KVolts > current at 5-8 milliamps, the sides of the glass tubes around the electrodes > starts getting blackened. Could some one advise how to properly degas, > and for much time. Do I need to replace aluminium electrodes with some other > metal, say nickel ? Where from could I get fluorescent & phosphorescent > pigments for use in discharge tubes, like TV Picture tubes, etc ? > . > Sanjeev I suspect that Al is being sputtered and/or evaporated. "Sputtering" in the context of plasmas is the removal of material from a surface by the impact of rapidly moving ions from the plasma. Most deposited metals appear dark or black if the film is amorphous. To reduce sputtering, use a metal that sputters less easily. Tungsten is one of the most resistant. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 18:48:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17411; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:41:45 -0800 Message-ID: <20010319024141.15032.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:41:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YgWvh1.0.yF4.e7Njw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: [snip] > > I would suggest making a wide pita bread shaped pinched envelope of heavy > copper foil, or a dual copper disc sandwich with a shunting flange at the > rim, made from a couple of 3" conflat gaskets. Use plenty of heat sink goo, > or better yet, thin layers of thermally conductive epoxy. The faces of foil > or sheet envelope elements need to be secured against warping and bending > away from the ceramic end faces of the peltier. > NR There are actually no "good" thermal conductors in existence. Diamond is the best known, AG and Cu are the best that are readily available and practical. "Heat sink goo" and "thermally conductive epoxy" are much worse thermal conductors than Cu, by a factor of tens. Their usefulness is that they are much beter thermal conductors than air gaps. Filling gaps with just about anything, even "goo", that makes intimate contact with the surfaces in question is still a big improvement over all those microscopic valleys in the surfaces that don't make thermal contact. Interfaces have high thermal impedance. Rather than put "goo" between several Conflat flanges, I recommend soldering the flanges together. Solder fills the voids, and it is at least 10 times more thermal conductive than the best "goos". This would give much lower thermal impedance in the shunt. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 18:49:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18427; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:44:56 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010318203728.00bef3e0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:47:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Vacuum Discharge Tubes In-Reply-To: <003d01c0b00f$e353eca0$c99b09ca eximcon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rcAcz2.0.mV4.dANjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the olden days :-) We used a mercury pump to degas tubes. then a magnesium loop was used to enhance the removal of oxygen. When heated (with microwaves) the magnesium would consume all of the remaining oxygen leaving a shiny magnesium monoxide stain near the loop. It was called a "Getter". This process I believe is still used in picture tubes. You will not be able to remove all of the gas. Usually nitrogen remains in relatively high concentration. You will have to ask some of the plasma experts about the aluminum but I believe that this could be the cause of your black stain. I have never seen aluminum used in a vacuum tube. At 06:28 AM 3/19/01 +0530, you wrote: >I am manufacturing vacuum discharge tubes, and use aluminium >wire (14 SWG) electrode at the sides, fused in Soda Lime glass with >dumet wire in Spectrum Analysis Tubes. I do try to degas the electrodes, >but after a few minutes, 15-20 minutes of working with 4.5 to 6.0 KVolts >current at 5-8 milliamps, the sides of the glass tubes around the electrodes >starts getting blackened. Could some one advise how to properly degas, >and for much time. Do I need to replace aluminium electrodes with some other >metal, say nickel ? Where from could I get fluorescent & phosphorescent >pigments for use in discharge tubes, like TV Picture tubes, etc ? >. >Sanjeev > >eximcon mail.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 18 19:42:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01484; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0800 Message-ID: <012b01c0b026$322427d0$0401a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: <3AA6D25F.9010603 pacbell.net> <3AA79D44.CA87884A@verisoft.com.tr> <3AA7BF5A.719B788E@centurytel.net> Subject: Fw: German Army kicks out Microsoft Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:39:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"HMf1x.0.2N.P0Ojw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, It looks like there are some other people concerned about MS software being secure & private. Regards, Michael >German armed forces ban MS software, citing NSA snooping >By: John Lettice >Posted: 17/03/2001 at 18:59 GMT > > >The German foreign office and Bundeswehr are pulling the plugs on Microsoft >software, citing security concerns, according to the German news magazine >Der Spiegel. Spiegel claims that German security authorities suspect that >the US National Security Agency (NSA) has 'back door' access to Microsoft >source code, and can therefore easily read the Federal Republic's deepest >secrets. > >The Bundeswehr will no longer use American software (we surmise this >includes Larry and Scott as well) on computers used in sensitive areas. The >German foreign office has meanwhile put plans for videoconferencing with its >overseas embassies on hold, for similar reasons. Under secretary of state >Gunter Pleuger is said by Spiegel to have discovered that "for technical >reasons" the satellite service that was to be used was routed via Denver, >Colorado. > >According to a colleague of Pleuger's this meant that the German foreign >services "might as well hold our conferences directly in Langley." We're not >entirely sure whose interesting video conferencing via satellite service has >a vital groundstation in Denver, but we note that Pleuger seems to have >gleaned this information from a presentation held earlier this month in >Berlin by, er, Deutsche Telekom. > >Which just happens, along with Siemens, to have picked up the gig. The two >companies have supplanted Microsoft (and anything else American) and will be >producing a secure, home-grown system that the German military can be >confident in. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/17679.html Have a great day From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 05:04:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA19875; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:03:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB60338.DDC7CB00 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:01:44 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? References: <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <026001c0af1a$5e6bafa0$298f85ce computer> <002901c0af45$891a99c0$9f3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010317203933.02ac8950 earthtech.org> <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318073530.00abb280 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010318135244.02adb3b0@earthtech.org> <3AB53DF7.53866F2@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"41yYS.0.Ts4.dEWjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I had omitted to specify that the shunting point of diode should be immediate to the cell. For not to affect the thermal characteristics of leads, it would be preferred diode leads would NOT be soldered directly to cell leads but via a single thin wires wrapped around cell leads without soldering. I dont know electrical characteristics of a Peltier cell, have significant thermoelectric capability or not, is its impedance is high enough to permit shortening or reverse polarizing with 0.7 V of the diode while it is thermally loaded. While searching peltier cell info on the web, I encountered commercial thermoelectric cells with moderate output powers (13-19 Watts) at http://www.hi-z.com/websit03.htm. The HZ-14 module consists of 49 thermocouples arranged electrically in series and thermally in parallel. The thermocouples consists of "Hot Pressed", Bismuth Telluride based, semiconductors to give the highest efficiency at most waste heat temperatures as well as high strength capable of enduring rugged applications." Does these cells would give better gravitistic performance, I wonder. hamdi ucar wrote: > > > According several hypothesizes, heat flow combined current flow may cause > gravitational anomalies. It would be interesting to check these hypothesizes > by decoupling peltier operation, heat flow trough wires and current flow. > > An interesting and easy setup is shunting the peltier cell with 6A diode > and drive the cell with alternating current. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 08:05:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03340; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:01:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:01:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:58:57 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Back door to "free" hydrogen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3AB62CC1.6090609 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"xmAC12.0.1q.lrYjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Water is in a constant state of flux at the molecular level and one outcome is the continuous appearance of free protons. Now it has been learned that when a number of molecules of water surround a target molecule in a very specific formation the event will occur without any outside intervention. This specific "formation event" may lend itself to an artificially enhanced probability by means of field effects. The finding should encourage countless science fair aspirees to begin arranging magnets in water containers with various additives to see if a more efficient back door can be found. And if Frederick ever finds us a low tech LL "harvester" to accelerate the process, then maybe the idea of free energy through free hydrogen will... well, hold water? The following news story should be referenced for additional details of the underlying technology (san speculation). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/03/010316073231.htm Some excerpts: Though the occurrence of a free proton is extremely rare for any one molecule, there are countless molecules in a single glass of water, so the process happens constantly. "This reaction is very complex," says Christoph Dellago, assistant professor of chemistry at the University of Rochester. "It's as if the water acts as both the 'splitter' and the 'splitee' at the same time." Since the team couldn't catch the split by chance, they developed a complex computer simulation that showed how a proton is torn away from a water molecule. The pH is a measure of the number of protons, or hydrogen nuclei, that are pulled from a water molecule and roam freely. The number of these free protons determine how water behaves when it comes in contact with other substances, playing a crucial role in nearly any biological process that includes water. Since the 1950s, scientists such as Nobel Prize winner Manfred Eigen have been trying to catch water in the act of splitting, but so far the mysterious process has avoided both observation and modeling. The research team found that the brief reaction happens when, by pure chance, a number of molecules of water surround another in a specific formation. That formation creates a quick electrical field that pulls a proton from the central molecule. Less than a billionth of a second later, the formation breaks and the proton either falls back to the central molecule, or its path is cut off and it roams as a free proton. To understand the way the protons are stripped away in the first place, the team used a proven algorithm to model the process, but the real hurdle lay in the rarity of the event itself. "If we just set up the algorithm and let it run, we would have waited many times the age of the universe for something to happen," says Dellago. Devising a way to "zoom in" on just the single moment when the stripping took place demanded the integration of a second complex algorithm, which in turn demanded ultra-high speed computers. "The result is that we now have the first model of why water has the pH it does," says Dellago. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 09:26:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30469; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:19:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:19:11 -0800 Message-ID: <01a101c0b090$4c984280$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: <3AB62CC1.6090609 pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Back door to "free" hydrogen Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:18:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ScB641.0.hR7.E-Zjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: Back door to "free" hydrogen Jones Beene wrote: > > And if Frederick ever finds us a low tech LL "harvester" to accelerate the > process, then maybe the idea of free energy through free hydrogen will... well, > hold water? I'm working on it, Jones. I think that a long trough (a meter wide) with sheet metal plates held at 10 kv D.C. or so with a plastic separator and a plastic cover scoured periodically with recirculating water should do it. Easier than panning for gold, but, much more lucrative. :-) Regards, Frederick > > The following news story should be referenced for additional details of the > underlying technology (san speculation). > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/03/010316073231.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 10:25:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21635; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:17:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:17:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB64BFA.63829346 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:12:10 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Rearranging peltier cells Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0b9MQ.0.rH5.Qqajw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, A peltier module consist of mutitude P and N components. Current pass on opposite directions on P and N components. Total of the currents passing between hot and cold sides are determined by the difference of number of N and P components. This should be z ero or at most one. Melcor modules appearing leads are on one side, this difference could be zero. One can deduce logically P and N components are canceling effects(*) of each others and leaving only residual effect. This can be by uneven numbers or P and N components or P's and N's are not equivalent(*). It is also possible P and N components are work ing together. Of course I favor first possibility that leave a room to improve the effect dramatically by rearranging P and N cell's current directions. This would also provide internal thermal shunt (short circuit layer should be backed up with thicker p lates), makes the module thermally inoperative to our favor. ((*) Effect causing balance deviation) I think this can be done by removing ceramic covers on each side an short all components by covering by copper plates on each side: Original module: C O L D S I D E ========== ========== ========== |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| (-)======= ========== ========== =========(+) H O T S I D E Modified module: ===========================================(+) |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| |PP| |NN| ===========================================(-) By this arrangement Z will decrease by N^2 (N is the total number of components) and the module should be driven by a high current low voltage supply. Unfortunately, this would cause serious magnetic artifacts. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 10:54:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03353; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:49:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:49:20 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010319123733.027d0760 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:37:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: You are miserable because [fill in blank] In-Reply-To: References: <002201c0af05$1edd70e0$ae3dee3f default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1HiZX1.0.Gq.lIbjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The notion that "giving"--i.e., altruism--is a good thing contains the >tacit suggestion that trading--i.e., voluntary exchange--is a bad thing. As >such, it is the poison that is destroying the world. --MJ}*** This reminds me of proselytizing religious fanatics who begin their spiel to me: "The reason you miserable, your life is empty, and your children hate you is . . ." The starting proposition is false: I am not miserable. I am happy as a clam. MJ's proposition is false because the world is not being destroyed. On the contrary, with regard to the economic issues MJ addresses, the world has never been better. Capitalism is unfettered and practiced more widely than ever. Personal freedom and security have never been greater, and never more honored by governments. MJ and his ilk are mainly upset because they have nothing to be upset about. They search for a reason to be miserable and disagreeable, in order to make other people miserable. They always find some absurd pretense to dismiss progress, bury hope, and to turn away from the future. They are convinced that cold fusion or telecommuting or hybrid automobiles can't work, won't work, and would not help even if they did work. They want some sign that things are going to hell, and when they see other people who are apparently enjoying life with bold confidence in the future, it drives them crazy! This is the last gasp of the Puritan Aberration: that lingering fear that somebody, somewhere, is having fun. MJ's arguments are probably based upon romantic illusions about the past. The actual past was as different from this utopian vision as anything can be. In colonial America, the government had vast power which it exercised with the kind of harshness we associate with Tokugawa Japan or the Taliban's Kabul. When children did not learn to read by age six, or attend church, the government would step in and take them away from their parents. When people owed money to banks or other powerful interests, the government would strip families of their houses, livestock, every movable good, every pot and pan, and sometimes so much of their clothing they would freeze to death in winter. In the 1840s in Massachusetts, the government threw a man in prison for months without trial, and crowds later beat him up, because he wore a beard when this was unfashionable. (He stuck to his whiskers. His gravestone shows him with a full beard in profile, and tells his story.) In 1972, my relatives and others I know who lived in Atlanta used to be stopped by the police, rousted from their cars, hassled and kicked because they rode with black and white male passengers together. People today routinely educate their children with "home schooling" which would have been unthinkable if not illegal when I was growing up. The world is doing much better than it ever was before, and we have every reason to be optimistic that this trend will continue. The only serious long-term problems the world faces are overpopulation and environmental destruction from pollution and urban sprawl. Both could be fixed at a moderate cost with existing technology. Population growth has already declined sharply in many countries, and there is no reason to think it cannot be controlled everywhere. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 11:20:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03712; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [64.19.14.115] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:46:19 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2001 18:46:20.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[E346D890:01C0B0A4] Resent-Message-ID: <"RrGhV.0.uv.bGbjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, I'll bite... But this provides a different theoretical basis for your bubble-wrap thruster than was posited previously, meaning that the bubbles do nothing, it is the absorber which creates the effect. Interesting stuff though. Merlyn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 13:09:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28279; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:02:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:02:39 -0800 Message-ID: <01bb01c0b0af$86a80ea0$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:02:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sm7E.0.iv6.kFdjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Cox" To: Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:46 PM Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Adam Cox wrote: > OK, I'll bite... > > But this provides a different theoretical basis for your bubble-wrap > thruster than was posited previously, meaning that the bubbles do nothing, It looks that way. :-) This might be occurring on the black vanes of the Crookes Radiometer in addition to the molecular effect. > it is the absorber which creates the effect. > > Interesting stuff though. Sure is. Regards, Frederick > > Merlyn > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 13:58:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14593; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:53:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010319164350.00a8f6a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:52:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? In-Reply-To: <20010319024141.15032.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cfJjQ2.0.WZ3.I_djw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: >There are actually no "good" thermal conductors in existence. Diamond is the >best known, AG and Cu are the best that are readily available and practical. Not "good" compared to what? Do you base the comparison on the energy conducted by heat as opposed to electricity? By the speed of the reaction? Ag and Cu are the best electrical conductors. I wonder if diamonds conduct electricity. There may be large differences in thermal and electrical conductivity between isotopes of Cu, and perhaps with other elements. I do not think there have been enough mono-isotopic samples to test this hypothesis carefully. If this is true, and someone can invent a cheap way to separate isotopes, or a way to transmute X into pure isotope Y, mono-isotopic transmission power wires might rival HTSC. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 15:06:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07104; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:01:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:01:55 -0800 Message-ID: <01d901c0b0c0$05853800$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Radiation Laws Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:00:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B08D.B562C400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"CFnKi2.0.wk1.Z_ejw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B08D.B562C400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some fun stuff. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/radiation.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B08D.B562C400 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Radiation Laws.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Radiation Laws.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/radiation.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/radiation.html Modified=807D59DFBFB0C00165 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B08D.B562C400-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 15:08:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05709; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:59:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:59:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-45.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.45] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB68E5D.3AC43EEC ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:55:26 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: You are miserable because [fill in blank] References: <002201c0af05$1edd70e0$ae3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.2.20010319123733.027d0760@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YoIb53.0.zO1.tyejw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The only serious > long-term problems the world faces are overpopulation I agree about the rest, but I don't think the world is overpopulated. I don't know if I did everything right, but here goes: Texas 261,914 sq miles is 7302000000000 sq ft Alaska 586,412 sq miles is 16350000000000 sq ft With a world population of 6157400560 people earlier this year. Now 7302000000000 Divided by 6157400560 Equals 1185 sq ft per person. And 16350000000000 Divided by 6157400560 Equals 2655 sp ft per person. I suspect that you could grow enough food for one person with 2655 sq ft, maybe even 1185, if we grew food on our roof. Imagine if we used appartment blocks and high rises! We would have room spare! Anyway it seems to me that the world is not overpopulated, especially in western countries if you consider most of that population will be asia, india and africa Polution does not have to be nearly as bad as it is, it's also not as bad as sometimes made out and is getting better in some ways. John Berry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 15:23:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07500; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:02:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01c0b0e6$07944ca0$5fba8fac default> From: "Thomas D. Clark" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: Portable Force Field Designs to Block out Unwanted Directed Energies Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:32:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 X-Apparently-From: ConexTom aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"y6JNX1.0.zq1.z_ejw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Portable Force Field Designs to Block Out Unwanted Directed Energies Comming from Direcged Energy Weapons (DEW) or other sources. I would like to outline the general principles and techniques that may be used to construct force fields to block out unwanted directed energies (Sound, ELF, Electromagnetic, and 4Dimensional/Hyperspacial/Holographic). The force fields that I will discuss are Anti-Noise Force Fields, Plasma Force Fields, Natural/Geometric Force Fields, and 4D-HyperSpacial Holographic Force Fields. I will also mention some proposed designs of a hypothetical portable force fields that may be used to block out DEW based on the above force fields technologies. Anti-Noise Force Fields >From the research that I have done recently, it looks like most energy waves (Sound, ELF, & Electromagnetic) can be filtered or blocked out by interference from a another energy wave which is a mirror image of the wave. Technologies already exist such as NTC Group Inc., http://www.nct- active.com/proact.htm, Active Noise Reduction Technology used in Headsets and Noise Buster which use anti-noise to block out unwanted noise. The anti-noise cancellation wave is produced by microchip which receives information from a microphones which listen to the unwanted noise, and then the microchip analyzes the wave patterns from the unwanted noise to produce a mirror image of the wave to cancel it out. Plasma Force Fields Plasma Force Fields may be used to deflect, dampened, and filter out directed energy lasers. Cold and Warm Plasma force fields may be produced by directing currents of various frequencies, intensities, and other current parameters at two metal plates acting as an anode and diode to produce a plasma field in atmospheric medium near the area around the metal plates. Some cold plasma force fields utilize air as the medium of the plasma at near normal body temperatures, densities, and pressures so that they would not be harmful to human beings standing near by. Hot plasma force fields are at higher temperatures, densities, and pressures and can still be used to block out lasers or directed energies in outer space. Natural or Geometric Force Fields The earth's natural geometric grid system produces certain types of geometrical force fields. Also certain types of geometrical structures such as pyramids, cubes, & circles, and other complex geometrical structures produce geometrical force fields. These force fields may be used to synchronize other force fields to affect macro-micro natural processes and spiritual processes. Also certain types of substances (crystals) and radio-active elements produce natural force fields based on their molecular geometries and other energy properties. 4D-HyperSpacial Holographic Force Fields. All energy waves are multi-dimensional and this includes the above Plasma and Noise Energy waves. But not all energy waves have been fine tuned to specific energy patterns which may affect specific Atomic frequencies, DNA frequencies, Molecular frequencies, and Body Organ, Muscles, and Brain frequencies. -Hyperspacial Holographic wave generators utilize combinations of waves and directed energies generated by 4D physical mathematical equations (Fractals, Quaternions, Quantum Fields, Gravitational Fields, Unified Fields, Tesla Fields) and directed at targets by multiple directed energy beams (which may be a combination of lasers, subatomic particle beams, sound waves, electromagnetic waves (micro and infrared), elf waves, and complex holographic energy beams). Hypothetical Portable Force Field Designs A hypothetical portable force fields would have the following components. 1. A sensing devices such as a metal plate or another an energy wave used to detect the unwanted directed energies. 2.A computational devices such as a microchip or a computer to analyze the unwanted directed energies and to construct a counter force field energy wave. 3.A force field wave generation device such as a combination of lasers, plasma generators, sound anti-noise generators, and directed energy beam generators. 4. A power source such as a battery, a magnetic wave capacitor, cold fusion, or a standard ac power adapter. 5. Communication channels between the components such as optical fibers, radio waves, or other energy waves. 6. All of the components would have to be hardened or resistant to harmful radiation. Also the generated force fields could be used to protect the other components from harmful radiation or directed energies. 7. The components of the above device could be miniaturized and placed into a microchip or micro-device to be used in the home or on or near the body. Current and Future Research Plans I am presently doing research by reviewing books on mathematical physics in the areas of nonlinear science, gravitation, information theory, time-space theory, plasmas, wavelets, Fractals, communication theory, and holography in order to determine the precise mathematical formulas needed construct the above force field design components. I already have a list of all of the relevant frequencies of the all of the bodies organs, brain waves, and molecular and DNA frequencies to be used to determine which energy waves need to be blocked out. I intend to apply for grants and other donation sources in the near future to fund researchers to design the above components. I may also need to find a friendly country where I can file a patent for the above devices so that the patents are not block by the country from being used or produced in the country. As far as I know the above technologies already exist, but since they were developed by researcher working under secrecy agreements they can not be made public. Since my foundation is a public foundation all of its research and work can be made public. I only need to hire researchers who have never made a secrecy agreement with another organization. Respectively, President, Thomas Clark Radiation Health Foundation Inc. Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 15:48:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17557; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:45:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:45:47 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c0b0cb$a2c8eb60$d93dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <001101c0af57$74cbc220$763dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.2.20010319164350.00a8f6a0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Thermal conductivity of materials Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:23:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"NcU1r2.0.9I4.gefjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A good walk through the old CRC manual of Chemistry and Physics will always help out. Early on, in the whole Peltier force affair, I looked up what I could on the topic. Of metals, silver is highest, copper is a close second, followed by gold, then aluminum and other assorted alloys. However, some cryogenic (solid) gases seem to be good also. However, Michael is correct with diamond being about 6 times better than silver or copper. I asked around concerning this, it seems as though the diamond lattice is just very darn good at transmitting phonons / atomic wiggles. HOWEVER! I also see that pyrolytic graphite, along the layers of growth, is also close behind diamond. Perhaps composites of pyrolytic carbon layered with thin intervening layers of something else would be a mighty fast thermal conduit. One can make an easy pyrolytic carbon film on quartz or mica, by heating it with a torch, then passing a flow of acetylene in nitrogen (NOT AIR) over the surface. The acetylene decomposes into a beautiful pyrolytic deposit. NR ----- > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >There are actually no "good" thermal conductors in existence. Diamond is the > >best known, AG and Cu are the best that are readily available and practical. > > Not "good" compared to what? Do you base the comparison on the energy > conducted by heat as opposed to electricity? By the speed of the reaction? > > Ag and Cu are the best electrical conductors. I wonder if diamonds conduct > electricity. > > There may be large differences in thermal and electrical conductivity > between isotopes of Cu, and perhaps with other elements. I do not think > there have been enough mono-isotopic samples to test this hypothesis > carefully. If this is true, and someone can invent a cheap way to separate > isotopes, or a way to transmute X into pure isotope Y, mono-isotopic > transmission power wires might rival HTSC. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 16:15:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24359; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:08:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01eb01c0b0c4$e5c2c780$8db4bfa8 computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Blackbody Thrust Sheet Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:34:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"PhFma2.0.Uy5.3-fjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reference to the Raman Effect and The Force on an AbsorberDue to Light: A sheet of "graphite paper" in space can recieve 1.36E3 watts per square meter from the Sun, all across the spectrum. The shadow side can radiate this as 5.672E-8 *T^4 = 1.36E3 assuming emissivity of 1.0 which lets the Temperature T get up to 394 deg K. >From Wien's law, Lambda max (angstroms) = 3.0E7/T = 7624 Angstroms, a peak in the infrared. If much of recieved radiation is due to Raman Scattering there should be orders of magnitude more thrust on this sheet than that due to "photon pressure". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 18:24:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05247; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:20:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:20:33 -0800 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:26:30 -0600 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (JNPCo.) Subject: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN: NEW VIDEO RELEASE! Resent-Message-ID: <"6wIpT.0.pH1.mvhjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN: NEW VIDEO RELEASE! The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 11445 East Via Linda, No. 416 * Scottsdale, Arizona 85259 * (480) 657-3722 www.josephnewman.com * josephnewman earthlink.net FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (March 19, 2001): What is the answer to the ever-threatening ENERGY PROBLEM and POLLUTION? Answer: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN! See the new 9-segment, 45-minute video containing documented facts by numerous credible scientists that the Energy Machine works, that my mechanical Unified Field Theory is correct, and that there has been a conspiracy - not only against inventor Joseph Newman - but also against YOU THE PEOPLE. All of that and much more is now featured at my internet site: www.josephnewman.com Then tell others to see it and ask them to tell others - over and over. "A picture is worth a THOUSAND words." See the evidence for YOURSELF! Thank you! Joseph Westley Newman (480) 657-3722 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 19 19:10:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26246; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:54:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:54:33 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:00:25 -0600 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: josephnewman earthlink.net (JNPCo.) Subject: UPDATE Resent-Message-ID: <"RkJ01.0.0Q6.dPijw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN: NEW VIDEO RELEASE! The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 11445 East Via Linda, No. 416 * Scottsdale, Arizona 85259 * (480) 657-3722 www.josephnewman.com * josephnewman earthlink.net FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (March 19, 2001): What is the answer to the ever-threatening ENERGY PROBLEM and POLLUTION? Answer: THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN! See the new 9-segment, 45-minute video containing documented facts by numerous credible scientists that the Energy Machine works, that my mechanical Unified Field Theory is correct, and that there has been a conspiracy - not only against inventor Joseph Newman - but also against YOU THE PEOPLE. All of that and much more is now featured at my internet site: www.josephnewman.com Then tell others to see it and ask them to tell others - over and over. "A picture is worth a THOUSAND words." See the evidence for YOURSELF! Thank you! Joseph Westley Newman (480) 657-3722 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 02:09:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA04753; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:06:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-237.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.237] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:02:26 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: You are miserable because [fill in blank]] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------402B0BCB851F99EFCD257FD4" Resent-Message-ID: <"bOQGm3.0.BA1.Jkojw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------402B0BCB851F99EFCD257FD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. 2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three people could live in. Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's 2,043,750,000,000 people is one state! Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it illustrates the point quite well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost unlimited population. --------------402B0BCB851F99EFCD257FD4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: antigrav a.pop.ihug.co.nz Received: (qmail 5058 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 09:08:23 -0000 Received: from mx2-1.ihug.co.nz (HELO mx2.ihug.co.nz) (203.29.168.197) by bob.ihug.co.nz with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 09:08:23 -0000 Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46] by mx2.ihug.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14fI7r-0003sY-00; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:08:23 +1200 Received: from oemcomputer ([62.252.87.186]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010320090819.IEQD285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com oemcomputer> for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:08:19 +0000 Message-ID: <001f01c0b11c$f632d120$a35afc3e oemcomputer> Reply-To: "thebends" From: "thebends" To: "John Berry" References: <002201c0af05$1edd70e0$ae3dee3f default> <5.0.2.1.2.20010319123733.027d0760@pop.mindspring.com> <3AB68E5D.3AC43EEC@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: You are miserable because [fill in blank] Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:05:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 I once read a book called the Myth of Over Population which made the very same points and it is clear that we have been sold lies no doubt for various political and control reasons. The most densely populated countries are in fact Holland first, G. Britain second. India and China are way down the table. I've messed up my settings somehow so I can't post to Vortex. Mike butcher > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > The only serious > > long-term problems the world faces are overpopulation > > I agree about the rest, but I don't think the world is overpopulated. > I don't know if I did everything right, but here goes: > > Texas 261,914 sq miles is 7302000000000 sq ft > Alaska 586,412 sq miles is 16350000000000 sq ft > > With a world population of 6157400560 people earlier this year. > > Now 7302000000000 Divided by 6157400560 Equals 1185 sq ft per person. > > And 16350000000000 Divided by 6157400560 Equals 2655 sp ft per person. > > I suspect that you could grow enough food for one person with 2655 sq ft, maybe even 1185, > if we grew food on our roof. > > Imagine if we used appartment blocks and high rises! We would have room spare! > > Anyway it seems to me that the world is not overpopulated, especially in western countries > if you consider most of that population will be asia, india and africa > > Polution does not have to be nearly as bad as it is, it's also not as bad as sometimes > made out and is getting better in some ways. > > > John Berry > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------402B0BCB851F99EFCD257FD4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 02:44:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA17003; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:43:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:43:13 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"kwpeW3.0.b94.7Hpjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three >people could live in. >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's >2,043,750,000,000 people is one >state! > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it >illustrates the point quite >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost >unlimited population. A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his rendering of the lovely world you speak of: http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build houses or grow crops. If the population grows much larger, we would degrade spiritually even faster than we already are, perhaps causing a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Many people are sure that's already what we're seeing, especially in urban areas where people are stacked on top of each other. Bottom line is we've *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking fast, IMHO. Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 04:39:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA32340; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:33:10 -0800 Message-ID: <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:32:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"QoqHq2.0.9v7.6uqjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was said: > John - > > At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: > >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. > >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three > >people could live in. > >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people > >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's > >2,043,750,000,000 people is one > >state! > > > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it > >illustrates the point quite > >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost > >unlimited population. > > A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his > rendering of the lovely world you speak of: > > http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm > > Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build > houses or grow crops. If the population grows much larger, we would > degrade spiritually even faster than we already are, perhaps causing > a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Many people are sure > that's already what we're seeing, especially in urban areas where > people are stacked on top of each other. Bottom line is we've > *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can > safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking > fast, IMHO. Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build > huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising > factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for > that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI ---------------------------- To this I would add a reference to Asimov's novel, Caves of Steel, one of his Robot stories set on a planet which so overbuilt that the entire surface was enclosed in a building. You could put the whole earth population in Texas with abutting rooms about 10 x 12 feet. There would be a few "minor" problems of food supply, etc. There are places of very dense population in cities that people do tolerate. Given unlimited safe energy and better systems of government and economics, then in principle the present or a larger population could be distributed in a comfortable way. But we are not there yet. However, such a human population exercising its impulsive need for recreation would have an extreme impact on the ecosystem which we barely understand, and that could in the end devastate an over-expanded human population and crush it back to its proper size. It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Mike Carrell > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 05:43:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12166; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:41:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:41:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-237.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.237] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB75D4C.6FA7258D ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:38:21 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pwg0t.0.0-2.Xurjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The point was thatta way... I'm not suggesting we pack that densely, even though 2000 sq ft apartment for 2.5 people isn't that bad. (100 stories) And if applied to the whole land area of the earth would equal 200 trillion people. Do you think the earth is in danger of hitting 200 trillion anytime soon? I lived in a house that was less than 1000sq ft for 3 people, it was conformable due to good design, if you wanted you could double the above figures and then double that as 100 stories would not be the max. with a good base, 3 times that should be not too difficult, forgetting any other problems. so 1200 trillion people. The point is we are so far from being required to pack that densely it's insane to think there is overpopulation. Rick Monteverde wrote: > John - > > At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: > >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. > >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three > >people could live in. > >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people > >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's > >2,043,750,000,000 people is one > >state! > > > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it > >illustrates the point quite > >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost > >unlimited population. > > A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his > rendering of the lovely world you speak of: > > http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm If everyone lay down with just enough room to not touch anyone else, the whole population (of the world) could fit into Jacksonville: http://www.scalise.com/jax/maps/city-jax.gif That's lying down not standing up like your friends drawing. > Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build > houses or grow crops. True to a point, a balance is desirable, but the world is more than large enough to not have to encroach any more than it has. > If the population grows much larger, we would > degrade spiritually even faster than we already are We are? From other perspectives it is not degrading but improving... And what does that have to do with population anyway? > , perhaps causing > a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Why? How? > Many people are sure > that's already what we're seeing What crap, The earth is if anything underpopulated just mismanaged. > , especially in urban areas where > people are stacked on top of each other. People chose to gather densely in cities, it's a human dynamic, not out of necessity. > Bottom line is we've > *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can > safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking > fast, IMHO. But your humble opinion is not based on fact. > Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build > huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising > factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for > that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? Many people live in apartment buildings more dense than what I am suggesting. (that was for 200 trillion!!!) But if you only have normal populations, say 12 billion then everyone could have lots of room. At about 6 billion you get approximately 287,296 square feet each. What is the average size of the average americans house and land? I'm talking urban and suburban, not rural where someone might have a 1000 sq ft house on hundreds of acres. The simple fact is that the world is not over populated, from a webpage: *To illustrate: I recently spent a most relaxing week on the Norwegian Sky (length: 853 feet, breadth: 105 feet) with a carrying capacity of about 2750, passengers & crew. At that rate you could fit the present world population (6.095 billion) inside the state of Massachusetts (7,826 sq. miles). The ship had plenty of room for recreation, shops, storage, etc. because it used three dimensions. My personal view is that we should have flying cars, that way we save space used for roads. Now all you have are cities, which will stay the same just parking will improve as you can park on the street. Suburban areas will change, as there are no roads, and because people seldom socialize with their neighbors, houses would just sit in fields of grass. As travel would be much faster in a flying car people would not need to pack houses so close. This would largely kill the difference between rural and suburban. You can have your home almost anywhere and still have little traveling time to the city. The only question is how close do you want your home to be to other homes? Some people will still want communities, but that really doesn't exist today anyway, we don't work where we live very often, so you would have your home, your work and friends, but they would not need to be geographically close. Now lets also remember that there aren't 6 billion people in the world, at least not in my world. We have so little contact with most of those, they are in india, africa and asia etc... Most of the time they might as well exist in another world, so you don't need count them. US, New Zealand and most western countries are no where near overpopulation, and we could grow hundreds of time larger and still not be seriously overpopulated. Currently the US has 350,000 sq ft per person Now if the population becomes 50 times larger you still have 7155 sq ft per person. No problem having good sized houses, land around it, parks and forests preserved, and if you have the odd city with density like it is currently you will have even more space. Over population is a fantasy, Overpopulation is just another one of those perceived problems with the world that Jed was talking about, when in fact the world has only one problem, too many people thinking there is a problem.. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 06:20:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17200; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 06:13:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 06:13:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-237.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.237] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB764D1.8A10F9B2 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:10:25 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sE21B.0.fC4.bMsjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > It was said: > > John - > > > > At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: > > >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. > > >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three > > >people could live in. > > >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people > > >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's > > >2,043,750,000,000 people is one > > >state! > > > > > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it > > >illustrates the point quite > > >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost > > >unlimited population. > > > > A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his > > rendering of the lovely world you speak of: > > > > http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm > > > > Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build > > houses or grow crops. If the population grows much larger, we would > > degrade spiritually even faster than we already are, perhaps causing > > a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Many people are sure > > that's already what we're seeing, especially in urban areas where > > people are stacked on top of each other. Bottom line is we've > > *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can > > safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking > > fast, IMHO. Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build > > huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising > > factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for > > that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > ---------------------------- > To this I would add a reference to Asimov's novel, Caves of Steel, one of > his Robot stories set on a planet which so overbuilt that the entire surface > was enclosed in a building. You could put the whole earth population in > Texas with abutting rooms about 10 x 12 feet. There would be a few "minor" > problems of food supply, etc. If everyone lived in Texas 1185 sq ft each, now people don't often live alone, so lets assume an average person to house ratio of 2.5 Now lets make these two story homes, so 1185 sq ft per person x 2.5 people two story equals 5925 sq ft per house if the state were house after house. But I think that's a rather large sized house, so lets shrink it a little, to something like the average house, I don't know what that would be, but 2000 sq ft isn't too bad. another 1000 sq ft for garden, but lets get rid of roads ok? Leaving space for other things. Now you also have cities, where apartment building compress people much more effectively, 2000 sq ft apartment in a 100 story building (not unheard of) would be 8 sq ft needed per person, so 10,000 sq ft would be enough for 1250 people! So while with just suburban 1/3 of would be homes (inside) 1/3 would be back yard gardens. and the remaining 1/3 would be free space! But if we calculate part of the population in apartment buildings we have even more spare space! Now I see no reason why you can't have some buildings just growing vegetables, and other with live stock. Potatoes for instance probably don't need much ground right? Only 2-3 feet? and a foot of air above, then the next tray above that and so on. So you could fill 100 story buildings with beds of soil, many per floor. But why not use the roof of houses and yards of the homes to grow food too? You would have plenty of room. I expect everyone could grow enough just in their own gardens (yard and rooftop) And Texas if just a small portion of the land on earth. If you did this to the whole earth you would have an incredible population. > There are places of very dense population in > cities that people do tolerate. Given unlimited safe energy and better > systems of government and economics, then in principle the present or a > larger population could be distributed in a comfortable way. But we are not > there yet. We are close, I mean it could happen tomorrow with clean energy. > However, such a human population exercising its impulsive need > for recreation would have an extreme impact on the ecosystem which we barely > understand, and that could in the end devastate an over-expanded human > population and crush it back to its proper size. We are no where near over-expanded, we couldn't all move to one state in one country and have a reasonable space if we were. > > > It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 07:37:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22486; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:35:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:35:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320095043.00a8fbc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:08:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Fwd: You are miserable because [fill in blank]] In-Reply-To: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hRfk42.0.FV5.1Ztjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three people >could live in. >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's 2,043,750,000,000 >people is one >state! If people were transistors on a silicon chip, and the sole purpose or architecture was to cram as many people as possible into the smallest amount of real estate, this would be fine. But I do not see it that way. For one thing, we have no right to push aside other species. We must leave most of the planet for animals and plants. I personally am used to having a lot of space: empty unfenced fields and woods to roam around in. I like to get up early in the morning, walk half a mile, and see baby deer cavorting, or in Japan, a badger stealing watermelon from the garden. Children who grow up with plenty of space and exposure to nature often develop a broad minded concern for nature, society and other people. I fear that children who grow up in cubical houses staring at television and computer screens have no roots to draw on, no serenity, no sense of place, no ties to the land. A child learns more playing for an hour in the mud with sticks than with all the computerized games in Toys R Us. >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it illustrates >the point quite >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost unlimited >population. Yes, it could, but it should not. It would a awful tragedy to displace so many animals and plants, and to make everyplace look the same. Just because we can do something does not mean we should. Japan's population density is much higher than the U.S. Although the places I lived in there had plenty of empty space, in my judgement the cities are too crowded, the houses too cramped, and they make people miserable. I favor indoor fish farming, indoor hydroponic farming, and -- eventually -- gigantic industrial plants on the moon or the Gobi desert. Hydroponic food production is already a big industry in Japan. Most of the cut flowers sold in the U.S. are grown indoors, in Europe. I would put commotion and pollution far away, tear up the highways or put them underground, and use VTOL aircraft for most intercity transport. Most transport should be eliminated, to be replaced by video and virtual presence via Internet. To me, one of the best, healthiest vision of how the world might become in a few hundred years is portrayed in Arthur Clarke's novel "Imperial Earth." The neighborhood it describes around Washington, DC is where I grew up, and where I walked or bicycled many miles in some of the most beautiful open countryside on earth. That countryside has now been transformed into barren urban sprawl. A kid who tries to walk there would be risking his life. This is a cruel, wasteful, stupid thing we have done, transforming Eden into an industrial wasteland. We have ruined the earth, ruined the landscape, and impoverished our children, who must now walk in shopping malls instead of open fields. There was no point to this pattern of development. We could just as easily have built houses and cities the way they do in Europe, and the way they did in Washington DC and Georgetown, leaving space for people. I do not understand all this talk of wealth and the stock market, when children cannot even find a place to fly a kite or play ball. What is the point of this wealth? Someday I am sure we will undo this damage, and restore things the way they ought to be. This will require a lower population, in the U.S., Mexico and everywhere. In the end, people are sensible and they want the best for their children and grandchildren, so they will do this. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 07:49:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08800; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:46:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB7799F.49F28B9A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:39:11 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Symmetry and Randomness - From Re: free energy machine available commercially? References: <3AAD7C69.F9BB6D79@verisoft.com.tr> <3AAF610F.1E2804A2@verisoft.com.tr> <3AB0A24D.6CAFF64B@verisoft.com.tr> <3AB27436.E8CE05C7@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tIVtk2.0.M92.Vjtjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to hamdi ucar's message of Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:14:46 +0200: > [snip] > >> Not only do I disagree, but I think you have it exactly backwards. > >> Building by definition implies the creation of coherence where otherwise > >> randomness would prevail. > > > >Structures and things sustained by randomness: > > > >- Galaxies. Specially ellipticals. I still suspect there would some unknown interaction in ellipticals, but it is accepted that the kinetic energy of stars moving at random directions prevent the galaxy collapse and keep stellar collision at minimal ra te. All other galaxies including ours benefit from randomness, not only for their stability but also evolutionary. > > The structure is a result of large scale forces, electric, magnetic, and > gravitational, without which true randomness would prevail. It is not a > result of random motion, in fact the motions of stars are not random, but > largely determined. Robin, may we give different meaning to "randomness". When I say a system is randomly structured, or it's dynamic governed by statistical laws, I acknowledge system components obey physics laws deterministically, not arbitrary fashion, or probabilisticall y as described on quantum theory. Yet systems behave unpredictably because their chaotic behavior. Chaotic behavior is an mathematical property ensuring these conditions. See http://www.wfu.edu/~petrejh4/chaosind.htm and http://www.wfu.edu/~petrejh4/Instability.htm I am saying exactly a system would maintain its equilibrium and its order by providing disorder to their components by chaotic dynamic. We can see it on gas state and on dynamics of galaxies. Mechanism of disorder is provided by bouncing characteristics of molecules on gas and gravitational interactions of stars. Lets be a perfect cube room and two perfect spherical and elastic balls to run to each other in one axis of the cube. Balls bounce back to walls after they collide and this would continue indefinitely. But if there will be an INFINITESIMAL deviation on th e path of the balls, this deviation will amplify on each collision, and after a while, their movements become totally disordered. As it is on gas state, dynamic of an elliptical galaxy is governed by statistical rules. Despite this internal randomness, galaxy is on equilibrium and stable. This is an interesting feature of the nature (maybe a pure mathematical property) that the diso rder maintain the order. Randomness even can be seen on our solar system appearing highly ordered. On solar system, interplanetary gravitational interactions still have effects, cause little perturbations on inner orbits, can be interpreted as a noise, maybe on outer orbits beyond saturn, perturbations would be greater, but over a time, unstabilized pl anets are crashed or throw away from the system, left only ones with stable orbits. Please note that again this order is set by heuristical processes. This remind me the process for separating a mix of small and big rocks by shaking the container. bigger one goes to the surface. > > > > >- Gas state. Gas state is sustained by random motions of molecules. Fluids may also depends on randomness; when randomness is removed they become superfluids. Please verify this. I am not sure. > > Gasses do not have any structure, and hence are formless. This is indeed > almost perfectly random. But it is also the opposite of what you are trying > to prove. Liquids vary, depending on the liquid. Some contain considerable > structure, some very little, depending on the strength and symmetry of > intermolecular forces. However once again, it is the forces which result in > structure, at the cost of randomness. > Randomness by definition is the complete lack of structure. You use the term "structure" for things having static determined form. But I think a pile of rubble is also a structure, or should I use another word in a broader meaning? Just like a galaxy, a pile of rubble have determined physical characteristics, determined by type of stones, size of pieces, homogeneity, dryness, etc. Rubble behavior is independent from shape of a single rock and how it is placed. Maybe it unnescecary giving these examples, these are probably well defined by mathematical rules and concepts. > > > > >- Nuclear reactors inside stars. I think there is no other way to control reactions other than random collision of atoms. > > I think that we are so used to relying upon random processes, only because > we don't know how to do it methodically. No, see chaotic behavior argument. > Whenever we do learn how to > accomplish a process in a methodical fashion, huge efficiency improvements > inevitably result. Yes. > The simplest example of this on an atomic scale is the > application of superconductivity i.s.o. normal conductivity. > Normal conductivity relies upon the random motion of electrons and atoms, > while superconductivity relies upon coordinated methodical motion. Yes, I described it as loss of randomness. I think we are converging on ideas. > I suspect that CF may also be a result of such coordinated motion, and if > so, then it too would be another such example. The improvement in that case > being in the temperature required to initiate a reaction. > Yes, indeed I am thinking on a system ordered by disorder would destabilize / break-up when its internal disorder is suppressed or lost. For example caging deuterium atoms into highly ordered lattice of palladium would subject the deuterium core dynamics maintained by randomness would be altered, may causing symmetry defects, uneven energy distributions, etc. Interestingly, general characteristics of CF experiments suggest me the phenomenon have a constructive nature, is about reordering (notice lack of neutrons and high energy photons), and we have no direct access to force these conditions like the catalyze mechanism. Maybe some resonances are taking place, the energy accumulated by resonance is directed to disturb the randomness, causing a phase change playing on subatomic forces, etc. > > > >- Foundation of quantum theory. Im not familiar with quantum theory, but it is evident that randomness plays a big role in Quantum mechanics. Even > > Which only goes to show that we have developed some nice statistical > mathematics to help us describe random processes. > > >without any theory, one can observe randomness in decays. Randomness is perfectly sustained in atom cores, so decays are regarded as perfect random events. > > I would say that nuclear forces manage to maintain the nucleus despite the > inherent randomness. The randomness is not a boon, it is a bane. in the case > of nuclear decay, the randomness sometimes wins the battle. If we name it as STATISTICALlY ORDERED SYSTEMS or a similar definition problem would be solved. > > > >- Sex (Organisms supporting sex). Sex ensure diversity in reproduction. Randomness is the requirement of diversity. If there was no randomness, reproduction would be cloning. > > IMO this is the only valid example you have given so far. In this case, a > small degree of randomness is valuable, and tolerated within limits. If it > gets outside those limits, death and spontaneous abortion are the result. I initially stated "I observe that the "randomness" is the main design tool of the nature build the world (matter and universe) on every scale." May it would be better to say something on the balance that nature keeps between the order and the disorder. [snip] > >> >Many (if not all) energy extraction operations play on randomness. Energy is released when the randomness is destroyed. > >> > >> No, when energy is released, randomness always increases. > > > >Actually you said my sentence in a different way! I said the system which release the energy lose randomness, you said system receiving energy gain randomness. I'd originally tried to mean by "Energy is released when the randomness is destroyed." systems maintained by disorder would collapse by removal of disorder therefore energy is released typically. Rest of the discussion appears lying on definition of randomness and symmetry. I think we clarify the issue and I skip. [snip] > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 08:35:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26656; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:33:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320113255.0280eaa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:33:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: World's biggest oil rig sinks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"M9aI4.0.QW6.6Pujw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a reminder that technology does not always work. I do not like things like nuclear plants, the Space Shuttle, or C++ program code because they demand perfection. They are unforgiving. Either they work perfectly or they fail disastrously. Disaster is always possible, with anything built by man. - Jed http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/03/20/brazil.rig.02/index.html QUOTES: World's biggest oil rig sinks March 20, 2001 Web posted at: 10:32 AM EST (1532 GMT) RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- The world's largest offshore oil platform sank in just a few minutes Tuesday, five days after powerful blasts rocked the rig and killed 10 people, Brazil's state oil giant Petrobras said. The 40-storey-tall rig, 75 miles (120 kilometers) , was ravaged last Thursday by explosions and fire that killed at least two workers. Eight others were still missing and presumed dead. Petrobras flew in experts and equipment from around the world to try to keep the rig afloat. The explosion knocked out a supporting pillar, and the platform tilted and sank slowly into the sea off the coast of Macae, 120 miles (195 kilometers) northeast of Rio. . . . The platform was pumping about 83,000 barrels of oil and processing 1.3 million cubic meters of gas daily. There are fears that up to 395,000 gallons (1.5 million liters) of crude and diesel in underwater pipelines and onboard tanks could spill into the ocean. . . . The area where the platform sank has been described by environmentalists as "teeming" with wildlife. The company estimates the sinking will cost it $100 million per month. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 09:53:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21669; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:46:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010320113725.02a8a080 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:39:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2HC_y3.0.VI5.OTvjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, I have completed a 2nd round of experiments with the Peltier-Reiter effect: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/2ndtry.html I had fun making a cute little Cu box...but still no real effect that I can see. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 10:10:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13797; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:33:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:33:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:32:40 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"-a3vY.0.RN3.JHvjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The picture on http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm is nothing new. There is a Science fiction story that deals with this subject to the extreme of that painting. There is actually an end stability based on an economy of 3 things if you don't factor in disease. Food, Water, Reproduction. In the story, there is a view from space, of a black line around the edge of every waterway. That black line is humans packed like in the picture. The pressure is on for the people furthest from the water to fight for women and water. In the process, food is created, ie Cannabilism. The strongest protect the women, and the water . If you think about it though, there requires some kind of intervention to keep the degradation of the earth from getting to this point. Mankind cannot rule himself or the earth without injury. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:43 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) John - At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three >people could live in. >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's >2,043,750,000,000 people is one >state! > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it >illustrates the point quite >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost >unlimited population. A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his rendering of the lovely world you speak of: http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build houses or grow crops. If the population grows much larger, we would degrade spiritually even faster than we already are, perhaps causing a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Many people are sure that's already what we're seeing, especially in urban areas where people are stacked on top of each other. Bottom line is we've *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking fast, IMHO. Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 10:14:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29793; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:07:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:07:58 -0800 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: World's biggest oil rig sinks Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:07:29 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c0b168$a10972c0$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320113255.0280eaa0 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"IMUpD3.0.dG7.wnvjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is risk, and that is life. Just because you don't understand something, does not mean you should not like it. 1. Nuclear power The safest form of power generation The production of chemical power plants yields hundreds millions of tons of waste that cannot be made safe, EACH day The least polluting Highly radioactive products are by there nature, self disappearing The more radioactive a product is, the shorter the half life. Long term Radioactive products have been with us since the last Supernova created all the Uranium that is in the earths core , and keeps the Center of our planet liquid. 2. Space Shuttle Its what we got, because you all elected people to create a government run monopoly on space . All government run monopolies have high costs involved, including human. 3. C++ If you want it easier, go use Microsoft visual basic, you idiot. Proper programming equates to PERFECT code. I never wrote a computer program that WAS NOT perfect, if I didn't it WOULDN WORK ! ( how stupid ) 4. Equating all this drivel to "Here is a reminder that technology does not always work" somehow equates your own intellectual shallowness to wisdom on your part ? You don't know why it sunk, only that it did. There was an explosion on the rig. That itself is important. All rigs must have certified equipment on board to minimize the risk of explosion. Your average $150 vacuum cleaner would not even be allowed on the rig, because its motor and construction cause sparks. You have no Idea how safe a rig is, because you never worked on them. For the explosion to occur, my uneducated friend, is to have someone IGNORE safety or IMPROPERLY USE the TECHNOLOGY which their LIFE depends on. So it was not the technology that failed , in all 3 instances you mention above, it was HUMAN error or a requirement of the device ( perfect code) . Get a life, and either stop whining about which that you know nothing, or you do know, and ignore the obvious. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:33 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: World's biggest oil rig sinks Here is a reminder that technology does not always work. I do not like things like nuclear plants, the Space Shuttle, or C++ program code because they demand perfection. They are unforgiving. Either they work perfectly or they fail disastrously. Disaster is always possible, with anything built by man. - Jed http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/03/20/brazil.rig.02/index.html QUOTES: World's biggest oil rig sinks March 20, 2001 Web posted at: 10:32 AM EST (1532 GMT) RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil -- The world's largest offshore oil platform sank in just a few minutes Tuesday, five days after powerful blasts rocked the rig and killed 10 people, Brazil's state oil giant Petrobras said. The 40-storey-tall rig, 75 miles (120 kilometers) , was ravaged last Thursday by explosions and fire that killed at least two workers. Eight others were still missing and presumed dead. Petrobras flew in experts and equipment from around the world to try to keep the rig afloat. The explosion knocked out a supporting pillar, and the platform tilted and sank slowly into the sea off the coast of Macae, 120 miles (195 kilometers) northeast of Rio. . . . The platform was pumping about 83,000 barrels of oil and processing 1.3 million cubic meters of gas daily. There are fears that up to 395,000 gallons (1.5 million liters) of crude and diesel in underwater pipelines and onboard tanks could spill into the ocean. . . . The area where the platform sank has been described by environmentalists as "teeming" with wildlife. The company estimates the sinking will cost it $100 million per month. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 11:00:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09238; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:54 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.19.14.115] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: World's biggest oil rig sinks Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:47:12 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2001 18:47:12.0398 (UTC) FILETIME=[2CE332E0:01C0B16E] Resent-Message-ID: <"lFgGC.0.AG2.NNwjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Personally, I have never seen or heard of anything that worked perfectly. I know that no computer code is perfect, thats why they always come out with updates and patches. The Space Shuttle has so many redundant systems that for something truly catastrophic to happen requires either gross ineptitude (Challenger) or a very unlikely combination of circumstances. Nuclear Reactors are not my forte, but I suspect there is a good deal of redundancy there as well. IMHO they might want to look at sabotage in this instance. Merlyn >From: Jed Rothwell >Here is a reminder that technology does not always work. I do not like >things like nuclear plants, the Space Shuttle, or C++ program code because >they demand perfection. They are unforgiving. Either they work perfectly or >they fail disastrously. Disaster is always possible, with anything built by >man. > >- Jed > > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/03/20/brazil.rig.02/index.html > >QUOTES: > >World's biggest oil rig sinks > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 11:25:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23181; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:27:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:27:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010319123733.027d0760 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002201c0af05$1edd70e0$ae3dee3f default> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:26:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: You are miserable because [fill in blank] Resent-Message-ID: <"1rZiA2.0.7g5.i4wjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The notion that "giving"--i.e., altruism--is a good thing contains the >>tacit suggestion that trading--i.e., voluntary exchange--is a bad thing. As >>such, it is the poison that is destroying the world. --MJ}*** > Jed Rothwell wrote: [mindless pro-fascist ravings deleted] ***{Normally I would respond to Jed's rant with a point-by-point rebuttal. However, in recent weeks I have been occupied with other things to such an extent that I can barely read this group, much less post lengthy messages here. Fortunately, he said nothing new, and so I refer any interested readers to the various dissections of his views that I have posted here in the past. Concerning the comment by me to which Jed was responding, my focus was on Nick Reiter's disparaging remarks about Dean Kamen--to wit: his expressed suspicions about people who have accumulated wealth and honors via voluntary exchange and who seem proud, rather than guilty, about doing so. Since Nick considers it appropriate to post his emotional responses to people in a science group, he cannot object if I post mine, so here goes: when I encounter people who, like Nick, repeatedly go out of their way to describe themselves as "altruists," who criticize persons who exhibit pride in real achievement, and who take every opportunity to insinuate that they believe in the importance of "giving," my response is to feel of my hip pocket to make sure my wallet is still there. To paraphrase George Soros: "The more he talks about the importance of 'giving', the faster I count my silver." :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to have for dinner." --Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 11:55:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26230; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:40:39 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320140234.0283d498 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:40:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: World's biggest oil rig sinks In-Reply-To: <000601c0b168$a10972c0$1c962640 bear> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320113255.0280eaa0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7tUYU.0.mP6.t8xjw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matthew Rogers wrote: >1. Nuclear power The safest form of power generation Except when it fails. Then it becomes the most dangerous form, as in Chernobyl, or the most expensive, as in Three Mile Island. I prefer a system which can degrade more gracefully. >3. C++ If you want it easier, go use Microsoft visual >basic, you idiot. No thanks. I spent a couple of years in purgatory writing in BASIC, when there was no other alternative. Besides, I did not say I wanted things easier, I want them more foolproof, more likely to work even when the programmer does make a mistake, and above all, I want the system to keep the programmer from making a mistake in the first place. In other words, I want: Pascal . . . or if they don't have it, I'll settle for COBOL. Hey, it makes most of the world's commerce run on time. >Proper programming equates to PERFECT code. I never wrote a computer program >that WAS NOT perfect, > if I didn't it WOULDN WORK ! Hmmm . . . I presume you define "perfection" and "working" as: "it compiles and runs without error at least once, on my terminal." Have you ever dealt with, say, 200 data sets from customer locations? Any kind of data: voting records from Florida, calorimeter data, cash register scanning records . . . With a non-trivial program, it is impossible to predict, model, or simulate all possible data sets, or all execution paths and program conditions. Therefore it is impossible to know how many bugs there may be in a program. In real life, the number of bugs reported decreases at first, and then turns up and gradually increases over the life of the product, as customers learn how to use advanced features. (This was first pointed out by Campbell at MIT in the 1960s). The concept of perfection is meaningless in reference to a large program which serves a real-world requirement. Such requirements change over time, conflict with one another, and vary from one customer to the next. To take a trivial example, no cash register operating system can serve the needs of every industry sector "perfectly." A program that works well for a restaurant cash register may be unsuitable for a grocery story or Home Depot. One customer may look at a function and call it a desirable feature. Another looks at the very same function and calls it a bug, or at least an ineptly engineered, inflexible nuisance. For more information, See: F. P. Brooks, "The Mythical Man Month," (Addison Wesley, 1982). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 13:25:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13039; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> References: <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:44:19 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZLbmm3.0.cB3.05yjw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matt - >The picture on http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm is nothing new. Right, he painted that one in the late 60's. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 15:41:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22425; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:18:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:18:04 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320180656.027b8008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:17:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) In-Reply-To: References: <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"bCuNj2.0.zT5.eK-jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > >The picture on http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm is nothing new. > >Right, he painted that one in the late 60's. It was a more common doomsday theme back then, along with nuclear annihilation. Since the late 60's the population explosion has abated somewhat, and it is now clear that it could be fixed worldwide at a reasonable cost, mainly by reducing infant mortality and ensuring old-age health care. It is still a major problem, and it will still lead to catastrophe unless people summon the will to deal with it. For that matter, nuclear bombs are still a threat. In Japan, the population is on the verge of a precipitous decline, and the money is deflating, too. Japan's population will definitely fall for the next 20 to 50 years -- it is too late to stop the trend. (It might grow after 2030 or so.) Some Japanese politicians are upset, but I think it is a good thing. By the year 2100 there will be enough room to live comfortably, and more space for parks and wildlife. It should be back to the standards of middle class 1920s housing, which was a lot roomier then than now. Frankly, I am a little mystified why they are upset about the deflation, or why they don't print a bunch of money and "drop it out of helicopters" as the New York Times suggested the other day. But I do not understand anything about economics. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 15:57:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32045; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:46:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:46:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-153.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.153] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB7D9AD.DC771797 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:29:02 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: You are miserable because [fill in blank]] References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320095043.00a8fbc0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DDT_E3.0.cq7.Yl-jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. > >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three people > >could live in. > >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people > >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's 2,043,750,000,000 > >people is one > >state! > > If people were transistors on a silicon chip, and the sole purpose or > architecture was to cram as many people as possible into the smallest > amount of real estate, this would be fine. The point is we don't need to cram people, there is more than enough space for a very long time with a healthy population growth (which currently there is almost no population growth) before we would need to cram anything. Still the majority of people voluntary cram themselves, into either apartment blocks or suburbs that are more dense than is necessary. If roads were gone due to (fast) flying cars and a larger population there would be more space quite easily. But in case you missed it most people WANT to live in cities, even homeless live in the busiest cities, they could move to a part of the US that is large and empty and just take some land and no one would likely notice, yet they crowd in the busy cities. > But I do not see it that way. > For one thing, we have no right to push aside other species. We must leave > most of the planet for animals and plants. And we would, it would take a much larger population to fill the whole world, still I'm not totally in agreement. While we should leave some I don't think we should leave any more than half if that. And I wonder what humans impact really has to be, I mean if you had a house on some land, and a flying car which takes off from the roof of the house, how would that be taking away nature? You would be living with it. What locations can you think of that are so sensitive that couldn't have the odd house here and there. > I personally am used to having a > lot of space: empty unfenced fields and woods to roam around in. I like to > get up early in the morning, walk half a mile, and see baby deer cavorting, > or in Japan, a badger stealing watermelon from the garden. Children who > grow up with plenty of space and exposure to nature often develop a broad > minded concern for nature, society and other people. I fear that children > who grow up in cubical houses staring at television and computer screens > have no roots to draw on, no serenity, no sense of place, no ties to the > land. A child learns more playing for an hour in the mud with sticks than > with all the computerized games in Toys R Us. There would still be plenty of land for people who want it, your projecting one lifestyle, but where it's desert (no mud or grass) or where it's snow? Having spent much of my younger years on a rural property, I know what you are talking about somewhat, but I think few people want or have that experience now or ever regardless of population, People like to be in cities and that's their experience. And the reason I'm not still living in a rural area is because both me and my sister wanted to go back to the suburbs. But the population would have to get much larger yet to stop those who want that experience from having it. I'm not actually suggesting a population of 1200 trillion ;) > > > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it illustrates > >the point quite > >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost unlimited > >population. > > Yes, it could, but it should not. Agreed, the point is we don't need to. The point is we are so far from that. > It would a awful tragedy to displace so > many animals and plants, and to make everyplace look the same. Just because > we can do something does not mean we should. Japan's population density is > much higher than the U.S. Although the places I lived in there had plenty > of empty space, in my judgement the cities are too crowded, the houses too > cramped, and they make people miserable. Exactly, there is plenty of space, yet people voluntarily packed the cities, because few people chose the rural experience over the cities. There is more excitement, more exchange of information, more wealth to be made, more people to meet, get in on the action... It's human nature not population. > I favor indoor fish farming, indoor hydroponic farming, and -- eventually > -- gigantic industrial plants on the moon or the Gobi desert. The other point is that I believe we will have cities on other planets and space station before population gets to great. And I'm willing to bet that most people will chose to live in space despite that it's conditions would be possibly worse than the 1200 trillion population on earth. Space in a space station would be expensive, and a colony on a moon would be too, maybe more so! And we have the technology just not the will to have cities under the sea. Most of the earth is under water, that would open things up. But we can also have them on the sea, or floating under it. Or get antigravity worked out floating in air. > Hydroponic > food production is already a big industry in Japan. Most of the cut flowers > sold in the U.S. are grown indoors, in Europe. I would put commotion and > pollution far away, tear up the highways or put them underground, and use > VTOL aircraft for most intercity transport. Most Certainly agree! then you could work in the busiest city, yet just have your house anywhere you like, no one else need be in sight. (assuming their high speed) > Most transport should be > eliminated, to be replaced by video and virtual presence via Internet. > > To me, one of the best, healthiest vision of how the world might become in > a few hundred years is portrayed in Arthur Clarke's novel "Imperial Earth." > The neighborhood it describes around Washington, DC is where I grew up, and > where I walked or bicycled many miles in some of the most beautiful open > countryside on earth. That countryside has now been transformed into barren > urban sprawl. A kid who tries to walk there would be risking his life. This > is a cruel, wasteful, stupid thing we have done, transforming Eden into an > industrial wasteland. We have ruined the earth, ruined the landscape, and > impoverished our children, who must now walk in shopping malls instead of > open fields. There was no point to this pattern of development. Exactly, it was just the desire to have it that way, it was not necessary. > We could > just as easily have built houses and cities the way they do in Europe, and > the way they did in Washington DC and Georgetown, leaving space for people. > I do not understand all this talk of wealth and the stock market, when > children cannot even find a place to fly a kite or play ball. What is the > point of this wealth? Someday I am sure we will undo this damage, and > restore things the way they ought to be. This will require a lower > population, in the U.S., Mexico and everywhere. In the end, people are > sensible and they want the best for their children and grandchildren, so > they will do this. No it won't, because people like to be in cities, it's just more attractive. But those who want that lifestyle will always have it. as the world is large enough. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 16:10:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31985; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:46:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:46:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-153.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.153] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB7DCC0.F21D555D ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:42:08 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <000501c0b163$c4669630$1c962640 bear> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PAmcG.0.Qp7.Pl-jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What a scary world, all based on the fact that people couldn't make a two story house! First the population to create such a situation would be ultra extreme, 3000 trillion or something, maybe more, yet there would be no problem if people had 3D cities in the air, land, on sea and under it, and underground. Even if there was only enough room to stand once you do all that there would be spacious houses for everyone, and spare land for animals. The simple fact is that with 3D cities the earth has no mundane upper population limit, it would run out of suitable material to make humans and structure out of before that. And on that subject we have about about a trillion tons of land, water, minerals each right now, so even that's a fair way off. Matthew Rogers wrote: > The picture on http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm is nothing new. > There is a Science fiction story that deals with this subject to the extreme > of that painting. > There is actually an end stability based on an economy of 3 things if you > don't factor in disease. > > Food, > Water, > Reproduction. > > In the story, there is a view from space, of a black line around the edge of > every waterway. That black line is humans packed like in the picture. The > pressure is on for the people furthest from the water to fight for women and > water. In the process, food is created, ie Cannabilism. The strongest > protect the women, and the water . > > If you think about it though, there requires some kind of intervention to > keep the degradation of the earth from getting to this point. Mankind cannot > rule himself or the earth without injury. > > Matt > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:43 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) > > John - > > At 10:02 PM +1200 3/20/01, John Berry wrote: > >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. > >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three > >people could live in. > >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people > >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's > >2,043,750,000,000 people is one > >state! > > > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it > >illustrates the point quite > >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost > >unlimited population. > > A friend of mine is a well known surrealist. Take a look at his > rendering of the lovely world you speak of: > > http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm > > Frontiers and open spaces are not just places for people to build > houses or grow crops. If the population grows much larger, we would > degrade spiritually even faster than we already are, perhaps causing > a large kill-off as the system self-regulates. Many people are sure > that's already what we're seeing, especially in urban areas where > people are stacked on top of each other. Bottom line is we've > *already* passed the point as a practical social matter where we can > safely maintain the population. We're in the red zone and sinking > fast, IMHO. Maybe in theory as a physical calculation you could build > huge planet wide systems for humans like they have for raising > factory-farmed livestock these days. But is that how humans - and for > that matter even 'livestock' should be treated? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 17:13:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26254; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:06:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:06:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB7FEB0.6455CFDE verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:06:56 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010320113725.02a8a080 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2FyIi3.0.8Q6.Ow_jw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, Thank you for these precise and comparative experiments and also for the analysis. Results are indeed suggestive. Now it was clear there was multitude of artifacts along the real effect (if exist). Scott Little wrote: > > Gnorts, > > I have completed a 2nd round of experiments with the Peltier-Reiter effect: > > http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/2ndtry.html > > I had fun making a cute little Cu box...but still no real effect that I can > see. > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 17:38:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15918; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:43:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:43:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001301c0b19e$a1424d80$423dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010320113725.02a8a080 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:33:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"d9z_U.0.bu3.Ab_jw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, and all; An excellent effort on Scott's part. I would not have done it any differently. While I am surprised at the lack of similar results, I would have to arrive at the position that one of two possibilities exists: 1. The effect as I have observed it, along with Charlie, Keith, Scott, and anyone else who may give it a crack, may be an intricate little set of entangled artifacts that lend toward an overall "pseudo-" effect. It may be that conditions of air flow, or temperature, or barometric pressure may give me a different net aggregate of conditions. The best way to prove this ultimately may be to determine the "ceiling" of magnitude for the effect. If nothing can scale the effect past perhaps 40 or 50 mg, maintaining reasonable geometries, then this explanation seems likely. Or if more extensive thermal shielding makes it go away for me; that be a way as well. 2. The effect although real, is dependent on one or more rather esoteric factors, making such things as exact model of Peltier, exact sizes and thicknesses of shunting envelopes, etc. critical. Obviously, reason would say that proposition 1 is far more likely! I suspect at this point, I will still try to proceed with having at least a couple of other interested parties give it a try. At least one student at the University of Toledo has expressed interest. I myself will also focus on trying to approach the thermal artifact angle, and see if I can get the effect, as it keeps working for me, to go away with more extensive insulation. BTW - I realize that this whole project may be getting blase in the eyes of the list members. Nevertheless, I will continue to post what I find, until such a time as I close the book on it. I would also like to make a proposition - I have two spare Peltiers of the CP1.0-127-06L type left. If anyone on the list would like to give some effort to trying their own experiment or replication, please e-mail me privately with your mailing address, and I will send one of them to you. I thank you all; NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Little" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:39 PM Subject: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try > Gnorts, > > I have completed a 2nd round of experiments with the Peltier-Reiter effect: > > http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/2ndtry.html > > I had fun making a cute little Cu box...but still no real effect that I can > see. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 18:32:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09269; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:12:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: <002101c0b1a9$4f49cd40$423dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:50:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pb-KY2.0.kG2.vt0kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 2nd try to send this - my server may be acting up Scott, and all; An excellent effort on Scott's part. I would not have done it any differently. While I am surprised at the lack of similar results, I would have to arrive at the position that one of two possibilities exists: 1. The effect as I have observed it, along with Charlie, Keith, Scott, and anyone else who may give it a crack, may be an intricate little set of entangled artifacts that lend toward an overall "pseudo-" effect. It may be that conditions of air flow, or temperature, or barometric pressure may give me a different net aggregate of conditions. The best way to prove this ultimately may be to determine the "ceiling" of magnitude for the effect. If nothing can scale the effect past perhaps 40 or 50 mg, maintaining reasonable geometries, then this explanation seems likely. Or if more extensive thermal shielding makes it go away for me; that be a way as well. 2. The effect although real, is dependent on one or more rather esoteric factors, making such things as exact model of Peltier, exact sizes and thicknesses of shunting envelopes, etc. critical. Obviously, reason would say that proposition 1 is far more likely! I suspect at this point, I will still try to proceed with having at least a couple of other interested parties give it a try. At least one student at the University of Toledo has expressed interest. I myself will also focus on trying to approach the thermal artifact angle, and see if I can get the effect, as it keeps working for me, to go away with more extensive insulation. BTW - I realize that this whole project may be getting blase in the eyes of the list members. Nevertheless, I will continue to post what I find, until such a time as I close the book on it. I would also like to make a proposition - I have two spare Peltiers of the CP1.0-127-06L type left. If anyone on the list would like to give some effort to trying their own experiment or replication, please e-mail me privately with your mailing address, and I will send one of them to you. I thank you all; NR ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Little" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:39 PM > Subject: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try > > > > Gnorts, > > > > I have completed a 2nd round of experiments with the Peltier-Reiter > effect: > > > > http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/2ndtry.html > > > > I had fun making a cute little Cu box...but still no real effect that I > can > > see. > > > > > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 19:06:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16573; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:54:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:54:12 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:06:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) In-Reply-To: <3AB764D1.8A10F9B2 ihug.co.nz> References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eCd72.0.h24.IV1kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:10 AM 3/21/01 +1200, John Berry wrote: >If everyone lived in Texas 1185 sq ft each, now people don't often live >alone, so lets >assume an average person to house ratio of 2.5 >Now lets make these two story homes, so 1185 sq ft per person x 2.5 people >two story >equals 5925 sq ft per house if the state were house after house. John: We wouldn't take too kindly to that sort of thing here an I got a Winchester hangin on my wall that says you aint gonna. I for one have no burning desire to be "efficiently compressed." Any of yall got that desire bubbelin up in your head you just go on ahaid and move to the city. And good riddens to ya. Hell I won't even go to Dallas unless drug there by horses. Overpopulation hu. You let me know when yall figure out just what causes that ya hear. A little rant from Texas :-) For those of you that cannot pronounce "yall" its one silable. More seriously though. Reproduction (at least for me) requires a cretin amount of privacy and comfort "in the long term". Bear in mind that we are not just simple animals. We know what is happening to us and we have to power to slow and stop this problem. Although I do agree there is plenty of room (for now) that is no reason to continue foolishly squeezing out pups because the mood calls for it. Pregnancy is easy enough to prevent and even if that does not work there are means of dealing with it "after the fact" If these methods are too hard for you to swallow then you aren't ready for sex. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 19:42:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21691; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:36:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:36:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB84C8A.1036 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:39:06 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d41UX1.0.gI5.i62kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Overpopulation has nothing to do with people/ft^2. It's all about quality of life. Anyone notice that many of the people in Monteverde's painting reference were copulating? At least they weren't driving petroleum vehicles. One interesting thing about "Caves of Steel" is that all inhabitants looked perfectly tanned. And it was unrelated to photons. An antithesis of "Caves" exists . . . a society which never made physical contact with other members. Who was happier? Terry "Soylent green is people." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:29:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15815; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:14:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:14:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB8200C.1F502773 austininstruments.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:29:16 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: World's biggest oil rig sinks X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320113255.0280eaa0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_iDTJ1.0.0t3.bg2kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Here is a reminder that technology does not always work. I do not like > things like nuclear plants, the Space Shuttle, or C++ program code because > they demand perfection. They are unforgiving. Either they work perfectly or > they fail disastrously. Disaster is always possible, with anything built by > man. --- Nothing _always_ works and it has nothing to do with earthborne technology. The sun will burn out one day, you don't always get laid when you'd like to and no matter what, you're going to die. Disaster is always just around the corner, but sometimes it can be averted by man. For example, consider the marvelous technological advances in medicine which have allowed us, individually, more time to build upon what we have learned and have, in fact, given us all more time to learn more and thus to open the spiral. Being sentient and realizing that there is much we don't know, if we don't strive for perfection then what's the point? Sloth and mediocrity forever? I hope not, since that path will certainly end a great deal sooner than forever. "Either they work perfectly or they fail disastrously." is a little strong, I believe. Most systems have a grey area where they signal that they are not working properly and ask for help. For us it's pain, dizziness, sleeplessness... If it gets to be too much for us we go to a doctor. For the machines we build it's more difficult because we deploy them and don't/can't always supply them with self-healing capabilities or recourse to adequate tech support.^) --- John Fields From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:29:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21656; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:25:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <00af01c0b1b6$7ab4b000$dc8f85ce computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: a connection? Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:24:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ikr1A2.0.II5.jq2kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Subject: a connection? > > > > Not that esoteric. For light (photons) momentum mc = E/c E is energy in joules, > > c = speed of light (3E8 meters/second) a 1.24 eV photon (wavelength 1.0 Micron) > > E = 1.24 x 1.6E-19 = 1.98E-19 joules. > > Thus it's momentum mc = 1.98E-19/3E8 = 6.613E-28 kg-meters/sec. > > > > 1.0 kg-meter/sec = 1.0 newton (0.22448 pounds). > > > > If you have 1.0 kilowatts per square meter of sunlight shining on 1.0 million > > square meters (one billion watts) momentum mc = 1,000,000,000/300,000,000 > > = 1.0 newton = 1.0 kg-meter/sec = 0.22448 pounds or 3.596 ounces! > > > > Twice that if it is a perfect reflector. :-) > > > > OTOH, if the Raman Effect takes some of the ENERGY from of the > > photons and converts it to the force/momentum of an absorbing "sail", > > say 1% of a gigawatt = 10 megawatts, that 1,000 meter square "sail" is > > going to move out, or push one helluva payload. :-) > > > > Best, Fred > > > > > > > http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2000-01/msg0020683.html > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 20:40:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26267; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:34:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:04:14 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try In-reply-to: <002101c0b1a9$4f49cd40$423dee3f default> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320220245.02d027d8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"h2VF-3.0.LQ6.4z2kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:50 PM 3/20/2001 -0500, Nick Reiter wrote: > I would also like to make a proposition - I have two spare Peltiers of the > CP1.0-127-06L type left. If anyone on the list would like to give some > effort to trying their own experiment or replication, please e-mail me > privately with your mailing address, and I will send one of them to you. How about a trade, Nick? Since I'm all set up, I could quickly test one of your modules and you one of mine. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 22:31:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21691; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:36:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:36:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB84C8A.1036 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:39:06 -0800 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d41UX1.0.gI5.i62kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Overpopulation has nothing to do with people/ft^2. It's all about quality of life. Anyone notice that many of the people in Monteverde's painting reference were copulating? At least they weren't driving petroleum vehicles. One interesting thing about "Caves of Steel" is that all inhabitants looked perfectly tanned. And it was unrelated to photons. An antithesis of "Caves" exists . . . a society which never made physical contact with other members. Who was happier? Terry "Soylent green is people." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 23:22:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA13886; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:20:16 -0800 Message-ID: <20010321071958.280.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:19:58 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Peltier Experiments : Earthtech re-do? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010319164350.00a8f6a0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"oorJ5.0.pO3.iO5kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >There are actually no "good" thermal conductors in existence. Diamond is the > >best known, AG and Cu are the best that are readily available and practical. > > Not "good" compared to what? Do you base the comparison on the energy > conducted by heat as opposed to electricity? By the speed of the reaction? I admit to having been vague here. It is technologically impractical to transmit heat by conduction alone more than a meter (and that's pushing it) by temperature differences below the vaporization temperature. > Ag and Cu are the best electrical conductors. I wonder if diamonds conduct > electricity. Pure diamond is a semiconductor, but its band gap is so large that for all practical purposes it is an insulator. The difference between semiconductor and insulator is arbitrary, anyway. Diamond can be doped, like Si and Ge, and semiconductor devices made from it. The large band gap makes for a many volt forward drop across a diamond PN junction, which increases power dissipation in the device relative to Si. On the other hand, a diamond device could operate at much higher temperature. there might someday be niche applications for diamond semiconductors. Today there are niche applications for diamond where high thermal conductivity is an overriding consideration, especially when the thermal conductor must also be an electrical insulator. > There may be large differences in thermal and electrical conductivity > between isotopes of Cu, and perhaps with other elements. I do not think > there have been enough mono-isotopic samples to test this hypothesis > carefully. If this is true, and someone can invent a cheap way to separate > isotopes, or a way to transmute X into pure isotope Y, mono-isotopic > transmission power wires might rival HTSC. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 20 23:53:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA17549; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:52:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:52:21 -0800 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:32:32 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c0b1d9$1841f810$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"G2Kr-1.0._H4.ms5kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Rick, Maybe he even did that in response to the times. My boss whines about " they were promising us a nuclear war" and that would solve the population problem. With existing technology, and plenty of room for parks and wildernesses farmlands, without Corruption at the government level, the earth could comfortably support over 20 billion. That's 3 times everyone who has ever lived or is living in history. Its Management ( government ) that causes the problems with mismanagement of resources. We in the United States, are NOT the problem, we have probably helped more people in the world directly or indirectly than anyone in history keep the world together. However the writing is on the wall, Our nation is polarized between those who want to develop the world and make it a better place, and those who think we are evil and should be brought down to everyone else's level. When our nation cannot even light every home because someone decides that making your life better is evil believing that all electrical power generation is evil, Yet they want you to drive around in non polluting electrical cars, ( where does the electricity come from ?) Nuf said, I could go on and on and on.. Your voting for both kinds, you cant have it both ways. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 12:44 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Matt - >The picture on http://www.johnpitre.com/JP/OVPfull.htm is nothing new. Right, he painted that one in the late 60's. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 00:00:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18919; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:59:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:59:43 -0800 Message-ID: <20010321073257.1770.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:32:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Thermal conductivity of materials To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000b01c0b0cb$a2c8eb60$d93dee3f default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YAMgX1.0.Sd4.lz5kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: [snip] > HOWEVER! I also see that pyrolytic graphite, along the layers of growth, is > also close behind diamond. Perhaps composites of pyrolytic carbon layered > with thin intervening layers of something else would be a mighty fast > thermal conduit. One can make an easy pyrolytic carbon film on quartz or > mica, by heating it with a torch, then passing a flow of acetylene in > nitrogen (NOT AIR) over the surface. The acetylene decomposes into a > beautiful pyrolytic deposit. Yes. I left out carbon as a good thermal conductor, because thermal conductivity of carbon is highly variable, depending a lot on how it is made. You need a thick layer of pyrolytic C to get useful thermal conduction. you need a lot of area (film thickness times length of a side) to get a low thermal resistance. Some commercial "isotropic" graphites (actually very fine grained bonded graphite) are mildly better conductors than Cu in ALL directions, not just parallel to the plane of the graphite as in pyrolytic graphites. These graphites are easy to machine but difficult to join. Graphite can be brazed to graphite and to many metals, but the brazing must be done in a vacuum. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 00:09:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03509; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: World's biggest oil rig sinks Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:02:33 -0800 Message-ID: <001c01c0b1dd$495c5310$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010320140234.0283d498 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"uVCJ9.0.hs.f06kw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Here I go again, ( hehe ) 1. Cherynobl ---- Warning ignored, DO NOT REMOVE THE CONTROL RODS DURING A LOW POWER TEST, THERMAL FLASH AND SEAM EXPLOSION MAY RESULT ! a. Was the tech safe ? only if it is run as designed. b. Or was a idiot at the helm ? 2. Yess!!!!!!!!!!! PASCAL RULES , who's gonna make 32 or 64 bit version of pascal ? ( I agree, My code is perfect, its YOUR interface that I cant understand ....hehe ) a. The code I write always runs on my computer, now if your talking about those pesky florida punchcards.... IBM made those machines so no wonder... :) 3. That's why we Americans make so much money selling software, the customer only buys what the Sales Person can make the customer Want ! Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:41 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: World's biggest oil rig sinks Matthew Rogers wrote: >1. Nuclear power The safest form of power generation Except when it fails. Then it becomes the most dangerous form, as in Chernobyl, or the most expensive, as in Three Mile Island. I prefer a system which can degrade more gracefully. >3. C++ If you want it easier, go use Microsoft visual >basic, you idiot. No thanks. I spent a couple of years in purgatory writing in BASIC, when there was no other alternative. Besides, I did not say I wanted things easier, I want them more foolproof, more likely to work even when the programmer does make a mistake, and above all, I want the system to keep the programmer from making a mistake in the first place. In other words, I want: Pascal . . . or if they don't have it, I'll settle for COBOL. Hey, it makes most of the world's commerce run on time. >Proper programming equates to PERFECT code. I never wrote a computer program >that WAS NOT perfect, > if I didn't it WOULDN WORK ! Hmmm . . . I presume you define "perfection" and "working" as: "it compiles and runs without error at least once, on my terminal." Have you ever dealt with, say, 200 data sets from customer locations? Any kind of data: voting records from Florida, calorimeter data, cash register scanning records . . . With a non-trivial program, it is impossible to predict, model, or simulate all possible data sets, or all execution paths and program conditions. Therefore it is impossible to know how many bugs there may be in a program. In real life, the number of bugs reported decreases at first, and then turns up and gradually increases over the life of the product, as customers learn how to use advanced features. (This was first pointed out by Campbell at MIT in the 1960s). The concept of perfection is meaningless in reference to a large program which serves a real-world requirement. Such requirements change over time, conflict with one another, and vary from one customer to the next. To take a trivial example, no cash register operating system can serve the needs of every industry sector "perfectly." A program that works well for a restaurant cash register may be unsuitable for a grocery story or Home Depot. One customer may look at a function and call it a desirable feature. Another looks at the very same function and calls it a bug, or at least an ineptly engineered, inflexible nuisance. For more information, See: F. P. Brooks, "The Mythical Man Month," (Addison Wesley, 1982). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 01:38:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA19400; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:37:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:37:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-109-228-249.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.109.228.249] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB87582.F7557D56 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:33:54 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Nl2vt2.0.2l4.aP7kw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: > snip > More seriously though. Reproduction (at least for me) requires a cretin > amount of privacy and comfort "in the long term". Bear in mind that we are > not just simple animals. I'm not suggesting loosing privacy or comfort, indeed we could have bigger houses which are more private, just tear up the roads with super fast flying cars? And at a certain population, impossibly bigger than what we have currently and probably will EVER have it might be rare to live in a rural location, but there will still be large apartments, and if you wanted you could still live in a house boat, and like an ad I remember, you could have your house ontop of a building... And it would be possible to make artificial environments that looked like there is sky above where it could be ANYWHERE! Standards of living, space and privacy don't have to decrease. And even if you aren't happy living in an apartment like "Friends", "Sienfeld" and "Mad about You" many people are and do. > We know what is happening to us and we have to > power to slow and stop this problem. There is no problem, we are not close to over population. > Although I do agree there is plenty > of room (for now) that is no reason to continue foolishly squeezing out > pups because the mood calls for it. Pregnancy is easy enough to prevent > and even if that does not work there are means of dealing with it "after > the fact" If these methods are too hard for you to swallow then you > aren't ready for sex. I'd agree if we were close to a maximum desirable population... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 03:28:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA21290; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:28:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-215.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.215] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB88F62.66D0F595 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:24:19 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0@postoffice.swbell.net> <3AB84C8A.1036@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3tWn.0.aC5.119kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Overpopulation has nothing to do with people/ft^2. It's all about > quality of life. Exactly! > Anyone notice that many of the people in Monteverde's painting reference > were copulating? At least they weren't driving petroleum vehicles. > > One interesting thing about "Caves of Steel" is that all inhabitants > looked perfectly tanned. And it was unrelated to photons. Huh? In the movie? > An antithesis of "Caves" exists . . . a society which never made > physical contact with other members. Who was happier? This is exactly why people like cities, and that is why the rural areas have limited appeal. Even to me, and I'm not even very comfortable in most social situations. And I spent a few years growing up in a rural area, I'd prefer to live in a studio apartment than in a rural community. And as for Soylent Green, how many square feet would you think is necessary to grow enough vegetables for one person under perfect laboratory conditions (hydroponics maybe, nutrients, www.rootblast.com etc...) with another layer of vegetables immediately above up to say 12 ft? (say 3 feet per layer maybe about half that for some things, 12 / 3 = 4 layers) I don't know but I suspect you would not need much at all. I think a person could probably grow enough food for themselves in something a little higher and slightly larger than a large refrigerator. This from a webpage: http://www.pop.org/students/texas1.html The whole world's population could fit in the state of Texas...Amazing as it may seem, the entire population of the world can be housed in the U.S. state of Texas � and very comfortably indeed, with each person enjoying a living far in excess of that now available to all but the most wealthy. Consider these facts: The land area of Texas is some 262,000 square miles* and current UN estimates of the world's population (for 12 October 1999) are about 6 billion.** By converting square miles to square feet � remember to multiply by 5,280 feet per mile twice � and dividing by the world's population, one readily finds that there are more than 1,217 square feet per capita. A family of 5 would thus occupy more than 6,085 square feet of living space. Even in Texas, that's a mansion. These numbers apply to just one-story, ranch house-type dwellings. With a housing mix of multi-story buildings, including town houses, apartment buildings and high rises, appreciably greater living space could be provided. Such an arrangement would allow ample land for yards and all the necessary streets and roads. Meanwhile, the rest of the world would be completely empty, available for all of mankind's agricultural, manufacturing, educational, and recreational activities! *The World Almanac, 1999 **UNPD "World Population Prospects," 1998 UN Revision From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 03:39:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA05139; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:32:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:32:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002701c0b1f9$4e3d7f00$dc3dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320220245.02d027d8 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try - swap Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:23:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"hKl2_1.0.6G1.c59kw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sounds very good. I will get one of mine packaged up along with a shunt arrangement / sink that seems to give best results so far. I will get it out to you today or tomorrow. NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Little" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:04 PM Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try > At 08:50 PM 3/20/2001 -0500, Nick Reiter wrote: > > > I would also like to make a proposition - I have two spare Peltiers of the > > CP1.0-127-06L type left. If anyone on the list would like to give some > > effort to trying their own experiment or replication, please e-mail me > > privately with your mailing address, and I will send one of them to you. > > How about a trade, Nick? Since I'm all set up, I could quickly test one of > your modules and you one of mine. > > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 04:52:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA16096; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:50:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-215.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.215] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB8A2B0.588048F7 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:46:41 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 44,714 x the current population! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W74vM.0.Px3.MEAkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now the United States will double population every 120 years at the current rate, it will take 1860 years (120 x 15.5) to surpass what is by my calculations the limit for the US which would be about 12,323,277,500,000 people (12 trillion) which is 44,714 times the current population! Actually it would be 13,546,291,200,000 after 1860 years. http://www.pop.org/students/popimplode.html Is an interesting page. I think it should be clear that the US is no where near over populated. And then with floating islands, underwater cities and what else it could actually exceed this without being nearly as bad as most of you think, the apartments could still be a reasonable size. And space will become practical before then unless your EXTREMELY pessimistic of out future in space. Not suggesting that it gets that large, just pointing out how far the US and world is from being over-populated. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 06:18:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20762; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:17:07 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.19.14.115] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Peltier-Reiter Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:16:34 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2001 14:16:34.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[88A6B9F0:01C0B211] Resent-Message-ID: <"zojVP1.0.J45.ZVBkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Might I suggest that the power cycle could be having an effect? AIR Scott has powered his device in short bursts which may not have given the effect or artifact time to show up. Or it coud be frequency dependant in some fashion. My two bits Merlyn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 07:10:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06850; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:00:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:00:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3AB8C3CD.6AA32AB9 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:07:58 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) References: <3AB72AB2.589F4DA3 ihug.co.nz> <003b01c0b153$0f5674a0$6e79ccd1 asus> <4.2.0.58.20010320202105.00c242c0@postoffice.swbell.net> <3AB84C8A.1036@bellsouth.net> <3AB88F62.66D0F595@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kd9Fz1.0.qg1.38Ckw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > Anyone notice that many of the people in Monteverde's painting reference > > were copulating? At least they weren't driving petroleum vehicles. > > > > One interesting thing about "Caves of Steel" is that all inhabitants > > looked perfectly tanned. And it was unrelated to photons. > > Huh? In the movie? Actually, the book. They made a movie? Asimov's point was that humanity had become truly integrated partially due to the density of the population. No separate races existed. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 07:15:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07783; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:05:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:05:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3AB8C4B8.ABADB0 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:11:52 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try - swap References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320220245.02d027d8 earthtech.org> <002701c0b1f9$4e3d7f00$dc3dee3f@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l8sEp2.0.Vv1.xCCkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: > > Sounds very good. I will get one of mine packaged up along with a shunt > arrangement / sink that seems to give best results so far. I will get it > out to you today or tomorrow. Speaking of shunt, could you shunt the n-doped segments and see if it is only the p-doped components which exhibit the effect? You wouldn't have to do them all, just the ones readily accessible on the outside border of the device. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:06:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02053; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:48:58 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010321103955.02833740 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:37:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 44,714 x the current population! In-Reply-To: <3AB8A2B0.588048F7 ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"0Mk7a3.0.rV.vjDkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: >Not suggesting that it gets that large, just pointing out how far the US >and world is from >being over-populated. People who have lived in Japan, China or India would disagree, I think. Most Americans would find it hellish living in the cramped conditions common in these countries. There is simply no place to expand. Japan has undeveloped land, but it is mostly steep mountainous country, difficult to access or build on, even with VTOL aircraft. Small personal VTOL would be an environmental nightmare, even if they were powered by CF, and building roads for wheeled vehicles in the hilly country in Japan has caused vast environmental destruction already. It is best by far to leave most of it as it is, since it is picturesque and there are usually parks and jogging paths on the steep hills. Over-population is partly a state of mind, or an expectation. Take it as expectation: We should expect the very best for our children and grandchildren. Let's plan for it, demand it. Why not rebuild the world and give everyone a large, spacious house? Why not have put aside acres of parkland in cities, within walking distance of every child, and cities surrounded by empty miles of open country? That is how Washington, DC is built. Someday, every person in every country will live in what we consider a upper-middle class house or a luxury apartment. Even with the demise of farming, and with factories and shopping malls placed underground, this will take up a lot of space, so it would probably be a good idea to keep the population somewhere around 4 billion on earth. Materialism, floor space and shopping mall goods will not satisfy our deeper desire for adventure, or put meaning in life. But most people today live in miserable, cramped, unhealthy surroundings. Solving these problems for them will give all of us a spiritual boost -- a reason for living, something to be grateful for. Cold fusion will be used for dull, mundane purposes: to heat the bath water, and broadcast reruns of "I Love Lucy." On the face of it, such uses are not spiritually elevating. Yet to those of us privileged to see the first cold fusion cells, there will never cease to be a kind of grandeur to this energy, which will still echo when it is used to dry our underwear. A frission of excitement will never leave us. It reminds me of the way I see a personal computer, versus the way my children see it. I will never take them for granted, or lose the sense of wonder. To me they will always be awesome, because I know -- better than my children ever will -- how difficult it was to make them, and what they do internally, at such speeds, with such astounding inhuman precision. I think of Wordsworth looking back on the French Revolution. Despite the disappointment and violence it brought, he wrote: OH! pleasant exercise of hope and joy! For mighty were the auxiliars which then stood Upon our side, we who were strong in love! Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven!--Oh! times, In which the meagre, stale, forbidding ways Of custom, law, and statute, took at once The attraction of a country in romance! When Reason seemed the most to assert her rights, When most intent on making of herself A prime Enchantress--to assist the work, Which then was going forward in her name! Not favoured spots alone, but the whole earth, The beauty wore of promise, that which sets (As at some moment might not be unfelt Among the bowers of paradise itself) The budding rose above the rose full blown. What temper at the prospect did not wake To happiness unthought of? The inert Were roused, and lively natures rapt away! They who had fed their childhood upon dreams, The playfellows of fancy, who had made All powers of swiftness, subtilty, and strength Their ministers,--who in lordly wise had stirred Among the grandest objects of the sense, And dealt with whatsoever they found there As if they had within some lurking right To wield it;--they, too, who, of gentle mood, Had watched all gentle motions, and to these Had fitted their own thoughts, schemers more mild, And in the region of their peaceful selves;-- Now was it that both found, the meek and lofty Did both find, helpers to their heart's desire, And stuff at hand, plastic as they could wish; Were called upon to exercise their skill, Not in Utopia, subterranean fields, Or some secreted island, Heaven knows where! But in the very world, which is the world Of all of us,--the place where in the end We find our happiness, or not at all! - William Wordsworth, "The French Revolution as it Appeared to Enthusiasts at is Commencement," 1805 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:08:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24209; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:39:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:39:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:39:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200103211639.f2LGd8E08717 franc.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: danq blue.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Overpopulation (was: You are miserable...) Resent-Message-ID: <"fb_O11.0.7w5.saDkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Look folks (especially John Berry), the number of factors and effects that you are leaving out of this in order to reach your conclusions could fill a book. How about moving this free-wheeling speculation to Vortexb-l where it belongs? Thank you, Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 09:50:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23804; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:41:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01C0B1EB.5F8EF850.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Transformer? Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:43:09 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8Cmkq1.0.rp5.GVEkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday, March 21, 2001 7:46 AM, Chris O'Barr wrote: > I assumed it was converting it to 9000v DC. It doesn't specify AC or DC, so > how can you tell? well, if it doesn't say otherwise, you can pretty much presume it's AC. Most all transformers I know of do not integrate rectification. Of course there probably are some out there that do, but that would be an exception. Do you have access to an oscilloscope with a high voltage probe? That would tell you for sure. A little neon bulb like an NE-2 will glow on both electrodes with AC, and only one electrode will glow with DC -- but current and voltage must be limited. If you only have a lower-voltage measuring device, such as a multimeter, you can still tell - do you know how to make a voltage divider with resistors? The basic idea is that in a series circuit the voltage divides proportionally to the resistances. So what you do to divide the voltage by 100 is, have one resistance in series with another one that is 99 times as high. So if you have a 990,000 ohm in series with a 10,000 ohm, you will get 8,910V across the larger resistor but only 90V across the smaller. However, the current in this case works out to about 9ma, so the wattage (I'm using DC formulas because I don't remember AC/RMS at the moment) will be about 81 Watts - which will fry your resistors if they're the typical 1/2watt or 1/4 watt variety. So you'll need some very high resistance values to keep the current low so the resistors don't fry. My rough calculations show about 200Megohms will keep it down below a half-watt; if you have larger than half-watt resistors you can get away with less resistance. Thus you would need, for a 100-to-1 reduction, a 20 Megohm and a 180 megohm resistor. Safety note: just because the voltage is divided down to 90 volts doesn't mean the leads at that point are safe. Depending on transformer physical attributes, grounding, and phase of the moon , there may still be substantial potential for electrical shock there, so treat the whole thing as hot. Once you get the voltage down, there are several ways to look at it. Realize though that you have created a high-impedance circuit so the resistance of any measuring device will affect the circuit. For example a multimeter with even 10Megohm impedance will seriously affect the measurement! Well, that's a start... I'm sure others on the list can do better since my electrical tech days are long ago. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 13:16:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01812; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:29:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:29:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <016901c0b23d$2b88aae0$dc8f85ce computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Crop Circles! Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:28:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B20A.D94579C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"4nqyZ1.0.ES.3zGkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B20A.D94579C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://geogweb.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Starrs/CENPIVOT.html ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B20A.D94579C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Center pivot irrigation.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Center pivot irrigation.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://geogweb.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Starrs/CENPIVOT.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://geogweb.berkeley.edu/GeoImages/Starrs/CENPIVOT.html Modified=605A40F93CB2C001A2 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0B20A.D94579C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 14:40:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18271; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:16:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:16:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601c0b271$bb0fd740$9fe88aac default> From: "Thomas D. Clark" To: "Britt" , "vortex" , "svp" , "michael" , "DEACH" Cc: Subject: 4D Meters & 4D Walsh Analysis Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:44:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 X-Apparently-From: ConexTom aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"VbW761.0.LT4.SWIkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 4D Meters & 4D Walsh Analysis I will describe how 4DWalsh analysis works and then describe how to make a 4D wave meter and wave generator I believe that most standard wave meters use 2D (x,y) plane analysis of analogue waves received at the single meter plate. Most 2D wave meters miss significant information from the other 2D planes which includes the 3D information and 4D information. In order to capture the 3D and 4D information, one may use a 4D Walsh analysis of the analogue waves. The Walsh analysis converts standard 2D plane functional analysis into a 3D or 4D matrix-truth table to analyze and present relationships between the 3 2D planes(xy plane, xz plane, and yz plane) and the 4D planes. Rademacher-Walsh functions are similar to Fourier functions which uses a set of orthonormal functions. The Walsh truth table has rows equaling the values of all variables of the orthonormal function that represent each plane of each dimension and combinations of variables which would be x1,x2,x3, x1x2 v x1x3, x1x3 v x2 x3 and the columns = r0,r1, r2, r3, r12, r13, r23, r123 where rijk = xi+xj+xk where + indicates exclusive - or. The function can be written as a weighted arithmetic sum of the r columns (Walsh expansion) as follows: f=Sum Fkrk where the subscript k indicates considering all 2^n "r" functions for an n variable functions. Also Fk=1/2^n Sum (f+(~rk)-f+rk) (k not =0) In order to make a 4D wave meter or generator one must use 1 sensing plate or 1 wave generator for each dimension. So one would need at least 3 metal plates in orthogonal positions to capture 3D waves. One could also use 3 wave transceiver dishes and transmitter dishes to form a 3D grid and use the Doppler shift equations to sense 3D wave patterns. I believe that the 4D information can be constructed mathematically using Quaternions from the 3D wave equations. These 3D and 4D wave meters and analysis can be used to sense information (angles, rotations, inter-relationships between planes) which is not detectable or overlooked by standard 2D wave meters and analyzers to detect directed energies which may not show up on standard 2D meters. . Respectively, President, Thomas Clark Radiation Health Foundation Inc. Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 15:57:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10882; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:47:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:47:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-74.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.74] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3AB93C5F.4202ADBE ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:42:24 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 44,714 x the current population! References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010321103955.02833740 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Mcu183.0.Zf2.YsJkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > >Not suggesting that it gets that large, just pointing out how far the US > >and world is from > >being over-populated. > > People who have lived in Japan, China or India would disagree, I think. > Most Americans would find it hellish living in the cramped conditions > common in these countries. There is simply no place to expand. Japan has > undeveloped land, but it is mostly steep mountainous country, difficult to > access or build on, even with VTOL aircraft. Small personal VTOL would be > an environmental nightmare, even if they were powered by CF, and building > roads for wheeled vehicles in the hilly country in Japan has caused vast > environmental destruction already. It is best by far to leave most of it as > it is, since it is picturesque and there are usually parks and jogging > paths on the steep hills. I don't care about Japan, though I'm sure they could spread out more if they wanted. And that still doesn't change the reality that the US is no where NEAR over populated. Depopulation as is a problem in Japan is much worse. > > Over-population is partly a state of mind, or an expectation. Take it as > expectation: We should expect the very best for our children and > grandchildren. Let's plan for it, demand it. Why not rebuild the world and > give everyone a large, spacious house? Why not have put aside acres of > parkland in cities, within walking distance of every child, and cities > surrounded by empty miles of open country? That is how Washington, DC is > built. Exactly, the thing is this could be done with a much larger population. It's the management of the space that is done with an overpopulation mind set. It is only the mind set that means it's that way. Then again people still seem to like this cramped condition, they pay the highest prices to live there. > Someday, every person in every country will live in what we consider > a upper-middle class house or a luxury apartment. Even with the demise of > farming, and with factories and shopping malls placed underground, this > will take up a lot of space, so it would probably be a good idea to keep > the population somewhere around 4 billion on earth. You could have absolutely massive mansions and lots of spare space with populations many time what we currently have. It would actually be easy while keeping everything where it is (malls etc...) > > Materialism, floor space and shopping mall goods will not satisfy our > deeper desire for adventure, or put meaning in life. But most people today > live in miserable, cramped, unhealthy surroundings. Solving these problems > for them will give all of us a spiritual boost -- a reason for living, > something to be grateful for. I totally agree, and I think one of the problems with the world is the architecture and how it effects peoples thinking. I think grand sizes and more room would improve things. But that has nothing to do with population, I mean the most effective thing would be to have ceilings quite a bit higher, though except for the few buildings pushing their maximum height that would not change the population density as it's vertical (free) space being used. I think that architecture should inspire people, lift them up. And I also have a problem with technology, as much as I love it I think it should bend to meet humans not the other way round, we create this alien life form that has nothing in common with mere biological life forms, it's sharp cold and hard. We could at least hide it more, or make it more natural. I think we should try and make technology more natural and less conspicuous. Also I believe this is on-topic as it concerns of energy and gravity control. -snip- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 21 16:42:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23453; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:28:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:28:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001701c0b262$0d7feac0$bd3dee3f default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: Cc: "Scott Little" References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010320220245.02d027d8 earthtech.org> <002701c0b1f9$4e3d7f00$dc3dee3f@default> Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try - swap Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:52:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"ecDa5.0.Gk5.FSKkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, Scott; I have packaged up, and ready to go out to you in the morning: A Melcor CP1.0 - 127 - 06L, virgin; straight from the original packaging. A Melcor CP1.0 - 71 - 06L (smaller unit) mounted in a copper foil envelope, with leads consisting of short length of factory wire transitioned into the ultrathin foil you sent. I wanted to leave everything exactly the way it was when I tested it today. With 2 amps of current applied, I was getting pretty consistent weight gains and losses of equal magnitude, at about 2 to 3 milligrams. In other words, pretty much where I started out, with the exception of your ultra-thin foil. Thus, I would suggest starting at 2 amps on that one, then deviate to see what happens. Now on that note, if you get this before you send out your Peltier; could you send along a couple more of the thin foil strips? (since I left the original pair on what I am sending you back) Or if not, let me know where I can procure some more. Looking forward to it! Thanks; NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Reiter" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 6:23 AM Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try - swap > Sounds very good. I will get one of mine packaged up along with a shunt > arrangement / sink that seems to give best results so far. I will get it > out to you today or tomorrow. > > NR > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Little" > To: ; > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:04 PM > Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try > > > > At 08:50 PM 3/20/2001 -0500, Nick Reiter wrote: > > > > > I would also like to make a proposition - I have two spare Peltiers of > the > > > CP1.0-127-06L type left. If anyone on the list would like to give some > > > effort to trying their own experiment or replication, please e-mail me > > > privately with your mailing address, and I will send one of them to > you. > > > > How about a trade, Nick? Since I'm all set up, I could quickly test one > of > > your modules and you one of mine. > > > > > > > > Scott Little > > EarthTech International, Inc. > > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > > Austin TX 78759 > > 512-342-2185 > > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > > http://www.earthtech.org > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 04:04:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA31723; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:03:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:03:18 -0800 Message-ID: <007001c0b2c8$165beb60$4b8f209a nikspentium> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010321103955.02833740 pop.mindspring.com> <3AB93C5F.4202ADBE@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: 44,714 x the current population! Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:01:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"tri7v1.0.Rl7.5eUkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As I agree this is off topic I thought I would add this post script on the "Texas calculations". When I was at grammar (high school) school in the late 60's/early 70's, people used to say that you could get the entire world's population onto the Isle of Wight (an Island about 30 miles long off the south coast of England) and therefore what is all the fuss about population growth etc (sound familiar?). I did the opposite calculation - how much room did we have if we were evenly spread across the entire land surface of Earth. I just redid the calculations, using my calculator (so much faster than last time!) and added what the United Nations population study group expects the population will eventually stabilise at by the end of this century (11 billion). YEAR POPULATION circa 1968 --- 3.6 billion -- land/person = 411 yards sq. = 35 acres circa 2000 --- 6.0 billion -- land/person = 318 yards sq. = 21 acres circa 2100 --- 11 billion -- land/person = 235 yards sq. = 11.5 acres of course, many of these micro acreage's would be icefields, deserts, steep sided mountains and generally unpleasant or difficult areas. Also bear in mind that the average US citizen uses around 2.5 times the natural resources that the average European does and around 25-30 times that of the poorest citizens of earth in the least "developed" countries. If we imagine that the potential 11 billion citizens in 2100 all have the standard of living Americans "enjoy" today, a very rough calculation shows that we would need around 30 times our current consumption rate of natural resources. If our 2100 acreage will need to be so much more productive, we have to be able to extract our total 2000AD current needs for food, water, clothing, energy, manufacturing materials etc from around 0.7 acres, or a plot of land 58 yards on a side. Not much room for all the other animals, plants insects etc that make up the biosphere that maintains our conditions so that life as we know it can exist on Earth. Welcome to the future. Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 05:42:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20055; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:41:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:41:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3ABA002C.5F30DD68 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:37:48 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Art Bell's Thurs/Fri March 22/23, 2001 Guest List: Eugene Mallove, Richard Hoagland Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5Y_B72.0.Hv4.A4Wkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: March 22, 2001 Vortex, I visited Art Bell's web site searching for Linda Moulton Howe's crop circle interview held on wed/thurs program. It was too late for that listing but surprise!, found the new listing. Art Bell has Eugene Mallove listed as tonight's radio interview guest and also Richard Hoagland. His four hour (two hours net) is split into two segments between Mallove and Hoagland. Although on separate segments, Mallove knows Hoagland and presumably are friends. Having both of them together may make for a more interesting program. I hope Bell will allow 'Gene to give a hard hitting cold fusion scene update. Those lame listener call ins takes the steam out out. The latest issue of Infinite Energy has an article of an apparently successful sonofusion (by Roger Stringham) replication experiment by Ken Rauren and Eugene Mallove. This was conducted at the New Energy Research Laboratory (nee Cold Fusion Research Laboratory). The same issue has a Front Page article by Jed Rothwell: Cold Fusion, the Titanic, and the Internet. Very interesting. The observations written resonates with what I have observed over the years, but not exclusive to cold fusion. Although we may not admit to it, I think we are all prone to the shortcomings observed in one shape or another, whether large or small and personal. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:12:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03580; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:06:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:06:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007001c0b2c8$165beb60$4b8f209a nikspentium> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010321103955.02833740 pop.mindspring.com> <3AB93C5F.4202ADBE ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:03:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: The Myth of Overpopulation Resent-Message-ID: <"zv_OL2.0.ht.eqakw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >As I agree this is off topic I thought I would add this post script on the >"Texas calculations". > When I was at grammar (high school) school in the late 60's/early 70's, >people used to say that you could get the entire world's population onto the >Isle of Wight (an Island about 30 miles long off the south coast of England) >and therefore what is all the fuss about population growth etc (sound >familiar?). I did the opposite calculation - how much room did we have if we >were evenly spread across the entire land surface of Earth. I just redid the >calculations, using my calculator (so much faster than last time!) and added >what the United Nations population study group expects the population will >eventually stabilise at by the end of this century (11 billion). > >YEAR POPULATION >circa 1968 --- 3.6 billion -- land/person = 411 yards sq. = 35 acres >circa 2000 --- 6.0 billion -- land/person = 318 yards sq. = 21 acres >circa 2100 --- 11 billion -- land/person = 235 yards sq. = 11.5 acres > >of course, many of these micro acreage's would be icefields, deserts, steep >sided mountains and generally unpleasant or difficult areas. Also bear in >mind that the average US citizen uses around 2.5 times the natural resources >that the average European does and around 25-30 times that of the poorest >citizens of earth in the least "developed" countries. If we imagine that the >potential 11 billion citizens in 2100 all have the standard of living >Americans "enjoy" today, a very rough calculation shows that we would need >around 30 times our current consumption rate of natural resources. If our >2100 acreage will need to be so much more productive, we have to be able to >extract our total 2000AD current needs for food, water, clothing, energy, >manufacturing materials etc from around 0.7 acres, or a plot of land 58 >yards on a side. Not much room for all the other animals, plants insects etc >that make up the biosphere that maintains our conditions so that life as we >know it can exist on Earth. Welcome to the future. > >Nick Palmer ***{I see two possible scenarios for mankind: (1) We will continue to encourage governments to violate property rights "in the public interest" until they have succeeded in destroying human civilization, and we have entered a darkness from which we will never recover. (2) Some energy breakthrough usable by individuals will become widely disseminated before (1) has happened. In that case, mankind will no longer be limited to the surface of Earth, and calculations of the sort you presented, above, will become moot. Instead, it will become trivial to tunnel deep into the crust, to live under, in, and on the oceans, and to move into space. And when we do that, we will take whatever species of plants and animals we need with us. Result: an unlimited expansion of the biosphere of Earth, with no adverse consequences worth worrying about. Bottom line: the only crisis we face is due to an excess of government, not to an excess of population. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to have for dinner." --Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:13:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00598; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:59:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000301c0b303$663cac60$c29b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: DISCONTINUE Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 23:13:42 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8e-ny2.0.39.Ckakw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Berry To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:59 AM Subject: [Fwd: You are miserable because [fill in blank]] >After looking, buildings seem to be able to have at least 100 stories. >2000 sq ft would be quite good for an apartment which two-three people could live in. >Now 2000 sq ft does 2.5 people X 100 stories = 250 people >if we assume alaska was one large apartment, then that's 2,043,750,000,000 people is one >state! > >Impractical (though with a few modifications possible) but it illustrates the point quite >well. The earth could with clean technology support an almost unlimited population. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:37:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12828; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:33:09 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01c0b308$186a3de0$c29b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:55:37 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"AILmB2.0.H73.hDbkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: WILL SOME BODY TELL ME HOW TO GET OFF THIS SERVCE ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 11:37:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12762; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:33:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:33:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c0b308$1777a080$c29b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: discontinue Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:47:43 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Icqmt2.0.j63.eDbkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 13:54:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20148; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:46:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001b01c0b308$186a3de0$c29b09ca eximcon> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:58:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Resent-Message-ID: <"QEPbf2.0.dw4.hAdkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >WILL SOME BODY TELL ME HOW TO GET OFF THIS SERVCE ? ***{Post a message that uses lots of profanity or obscenity? Offer to sell kiddie porn, drugs, plutonium, or classified material? Of course, those are just guesses. As far as I know, no one has ever actually tested out such methods in this group. :-) --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to have for dinner." --Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 15:09:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11688; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:06:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:06:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3ABA8754.5251C0FB bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:14:28 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try References: <001b01c0b308$186a3de0$c29b09ca eximcon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j1H5t2.0.Vs2.uLekw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: eximcon wrote: > > WILL SOME BODY TELL ME HOW TO GET OFF THIS SERVCE ? Send a blank message with "unsubscribe" (less quotes) in the subject header to: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 16:38:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03475; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:36:33 -0800 Message-Id: <200103230036.TAA20858 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Eugene Mallove on Art Bell Show 3/22-23 - Late Night Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:31:03 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"FU8Hp.0.5s.Ggfkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear ALL: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine will appear TONIGHT on the Art Bell nationwide radio program , with co-guest Richard Hoagland of the The Enterprise Mission. See www.artbell.com for local radio listings. Topics to be covered include: A. Anomalous Martian surface features and B. Cold fusion and new energy technology. Time: (Thursday-Friday, March 22-23, 2001), Eastern time: 2:00 a.m.-6:00 a.m. (Friday). March 23, 2001 is the twelfth anniversary of the announcement of cold fusion by Drs. Fleischmann and Pons, and the day before the 12th anniversary of the Exxon Valdez disaster off the coast of Alaska. The perennial energy crisis which we are now experiencing makes this program particularly timely. We promise you an informative and exciting program. Hope you can can all catch the show tonight or on the www later. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Infinite Energy Magazine & New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com 603-228-4516 Phone 603-224-5975 Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 16:57:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09359; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:56:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103230036.TAA20858 mercury.mv.net> References: <200103230036.TAA20858 mercury.mv.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:56:47 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Eugene Mallove on Art Bell Show 3/22-23 - Late Night Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"naMCI3.0.7I2.Ozfkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene - Glad to hear you're going to be on again, I'll be listening. Good to have Art Bell back, isn't it? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Dear ALL: > >Dr. Eugene F. Mallove of Infinite Energy Magazine will appear TONIGHT on >the Art Bell nationwide radio program , with co-guest Richard Hoagland of >the The Enterprise Mission. > >See www.artbell.com for local radio listings. > >Topics to be covered include: A. Anomalous Martian surface features and >B. Cold fusion and new energy technology. Time: (Thursday-Friday, March >22-23, 2001), Eastern time: 2:00 a.m.-6:00 a.m. (Friday). > >March 23, 2001 is the twelfth anniversary of the announcement of cold >fusion by Drs. Fleischmann and Pons, and the day before the 12th >anniversary of the Exxon Valdez disaster off the coast of Alaska. The >perennial energy crisis which we are now experiencing makes this program >particularly timely. We promise you an informative and exciting program. > >Hope you can can all catch the show tonight or on the www later. > >Sincerely, > >Dr. Eugene F. Mallove >Infinite Energy Magazine & >New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) >Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. >P.O. Box 2816 >Concord, NH 03302-2816 > >editor infinite-energy.com >www.infinite-energy.com > >603-228-4516 Phone >603-224-5975 Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 16:59:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08877; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:55:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:55:10 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3ABA8754.5251C0FB bellsouth.net> References: <001b01c0b308$186a3de0$c29b09ca eximcon> <3ABA8754.5251C0FB bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:54:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"x3omF2.0.ZA2.hxfkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lol - I thought he was slamming the 'overpopulation' thread - as in DISCONTINUE this nonsense at once! Notice there were no more messages... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >eximcon wrote: >> >> WILL SOME BODY TELL ME HOW TO GET OFF THIS SERVCE ? > >Send a blank message with "unsubscribe" (less quotes) in the >subject header to: > >vortex-l-request eskimo.com > > > >Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 22 22:34:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA32069; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:33:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:33:56 -0800 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: Devices Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:32:41 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c0b363$105edb00$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <3AB93C5F.4202ADBE ihug.co.nz> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"OK5Jx2.0._q7.Kvkkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matt I just got done reading the list of devices checked out by the http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/deviceupd.html website, And I came across a glaring problem related to the helium production. They used in one device a catalyst of carbon and palladium and were checking on a mass spectrometer the amount of helium generated by the device, specifically D2 ( deuterium ) and Helium 4 . They then measured the H4 levels and found them to be 2x the ambient air levels, but the levels of helium didn't change. This would indicate that they are releasing a finite amount of helium. If they are testing the gas for H4 afterwards and that's all, they also need to measure the H4 in all the materials before the experiment. Helium is a very slippery molecular with low weight, it can work its way through lots of materials. Carbon has been found to trap helium, in fact, the latest Sci American shows an illustration of helium molecule inside a Carbon "bucky ball" that they are trying to find in space, because if they do, they surmise that it will be as old as a remnant of the Big Bang. Anyway I am off thetrack. Did anyone measure the helium conten in the catylyst, the vessel, the plastics used in the gaskets ect ect ??? You need a true baseline, not just an ambient versus measured. As a side note, If the above production of Helium is true, then it must be happening in Nature, if it is a room temperature and 1 psi expierment. So, as a though, Does anybody know where we have the highest natural source of helium on this planet ? Texas Natural Gas wells. What comprises Natural Gas ? Hydrogen and Carbon. matt From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 00:53:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25750; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:52:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:52:30 -0800 Message-ID: <043101c0b377$c762e080$209b09ca eximcon> From: "eximcon" To: Subject: DISCONTINUE Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:40:32 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"83MDW.0.CI6.Dxmkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: Vortex Date: Friday, March 23, 2001 6:32 AM Subject: Art Bell's Thurs/Fri March 22/23, 2001 Guest List: Eugene Mallove, Richard Hoagland >March 22, 2001 > >Vortex, > >I visited Art Bell's web site searching for Linda Moulton Howe's crop >circle interview held on wed/thurs program. It was too late for that >listing but surprise!, found the new listing. > >Art Bell has Eugene Mallove listed as tonight's radio interview guest >and also Richard Hoagland. His four hour (two hours net) is split into >two segments between Mallove and Hoagland. Although on separate >segments, Mallove knows Hoagland and presumably are friends. Having both >of them together may make for a more interesting program. I hope Bell >will allow 'Gene to give a hard hitting cold fusion scene update. >Those lame listener call ins takes the steam out out. > >The latest issue of Infinite Energy has an article of an apparently >successful sonofusion (by Roger Stringham) replication experiment by >Ken Rauren and Eugene Mallove. This was conducted at the New Energy >Research Laboratory (nee Cold Fusion Research Laboratory). > >The same issue has a Front Page article by Jed Rothwell: Cold Fusion, >the Titanic, and the Internet. Very interesting. The observations >written resonates with what I have observed over the years, but not >exclusive to cold fusion. Although we may not admit to it, I think we >are all prone to the shortcomings observed in one shape or another, >whether large or small and personal. > >-AK- > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 06:33:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18921; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:32:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:32:56 -0800 Sender: jack granger.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3ABB6C60.3434276E centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:31:44 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hydrino yahoogroups.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xl" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xl" Resent-Message-ID: <"SPYil.0.Zd4.Nwrkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Luke Setzer wrote: People, As the co-moderator and founder of HSG, I'm going to be candid. I'm getting tired of this thread ... If you're willing to help me to do the work of rigorously fleshing out and validating the mathematics in Mills' book, by all means lend me a hand ... Hi All, Without Scott Little validating a set of Mills' data, "validating the mathematics in Mills' book" is like discussing the proposition that "No more than 30 angels can stand on the head of a pin at one time." Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 06:46:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22717; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:45:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:45:37 -0800 Message-Id: <200103231445.f2NEjXX05884 smtp-2u-1.atlantic.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 9:57:19 -0500 From: "Michael T. Huffman" Reply-To: knuke LCIA.COM To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Lost and Found X-mailer: FoxMail 2.1 [en] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jw4Bs3.0.oY5.G6skw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, For those of you interested in all things Martian and possibly still missing: http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999534 A group of military photo-analysts think they may have found the Mars Polar Lander on some photographs. Get out your magnifying glasses! Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 07:50:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08279; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:47:12 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:47:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, hydrino@yahoogroups.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3ABB6C60.3434276E centurytel.net> References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oz1CJ3.0.H12.00tkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Without Scott Little validating a set of Mills' data, >"validating the mathematics in Mills' book" is like >discussing the proposition that "No more than 30 angels >can stand on the head of a pin at one time." I agree, except that it does not have to be Scott Little, and Scott Little alone would not suffice. The experiment has to be "widely replicated." The results have to be published in detail, in peer-reviewed journals. In some labs (not all), outside observers must be invited to freely observe and verify experiments. Until that happens, the results cannot be accepted or rejected. Those are the generally accepted, traditional rules. The details, and the precise definitions of those terms are a matter of opinion. Here are the gray areas where fair minded people disagree: * Widely replicated -- means somewhere between 5 and 50 laboratories replicate independently. Some experiments, such as the top quark finding, cannot be replicated by any other laboratory, but they are accepted anyway, because it would be impractical to build a duplicate of Fermilab's Collider Detector Facility (CDF). * Peer-reviewed journals -- some people say it must be Nature, others would accept an on-line publication. Exactly who constitutes a "peer" is difficult to say. * Verify experiment -- this could mean anything from watching over the researcher's shoulder, to pushing him out of the way and verifying the reaction in his apparatus with your own instruments. The Mills results have reportedly been duplicated by various laboratories. I do not know wether these other laboratories have published peer reviewed papers or not. If they have, these are replications. If they have not, these are pending, incomplete replications, and it is impossible to judge Mills' claims based upon them. It would not be fair to Mills or the researchers who duplicated him. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 07:54:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09474; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:50:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:50:42 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010323095044.00965c10 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:51:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Peltier-Reiter: 2nd try In-Reply-To: <001b01c0b308$186a3de0$c29b09ca eximcon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"KkHDe.0.yJ2.H3tkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:55 AM 3/23/01 +0530, you wrote: >WILL SOME BODY TELL ME HOW TO GET OFF THIS SERVCE ? mailto:vortex-L-request eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 08:09:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14978; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:06:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:06:40 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323110529.020cdcb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:06:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Devices In-Reply-To: <000701c0b363$105edb00$1c962640 bear> References: <3AB93C5F.4202ADBE ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FVdGA1.0.wf3.GItkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matthew Rogers wrote: >I just got done reading the list of devices checked out by the >http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/deviceupd.html website, This is another name for www.infinite-energy.com >And I came across a glaring problem related to the helium production. > >They used in one device a catalyst of carbon and palladium and were checking >on a mass spectrometer the amount of helium generated by the device, >specifically . . . Who are they? Which experiment does this refer to? Helium production has been observed by many researchers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 08:42:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05263; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004801c0b3b7$8ed9cf40$739264c3 oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Gudmund Rapp" From: "Gudmund Rapp" To: References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 17:36:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id IAA05184 Resent-Message-ID: <"qWcAj2.0.4I1.pktkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been off list this for some time but I am very curious about the fact that Earth Tech with Scott Little, to my knowledge, not having once been able to duplicate an OU claim of other investigaters. Jed has on this list and in the Journal Infinite Energy claimed that OU has been established in many independent laboratories for Cold Fusion in particular but also for other areas. Taylor J Smith seems to regard Scott Little as *the referee*. I think an explanation would be welcome. Gudmund Rapp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Cc: Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 4:47 PM Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > >Without Scott Little validating a set of Mills' data, > >"validating the mathematics in Mills' book" is like > >discussing the proposition that "No more than 30 angels > >can stand on the head of a pin at one time." > > I agree, except that it does not have to be Scott Little, and Scott Little > alone would not suffice. The experiment has to be "widely replicated." The > results have to be published in detail, in peer-reviewed journals. In some > labs (not all), outside observers must be invited to freely observe and > verify experiments. Until that happens, the results cannot be accepted or > rejected. > > Those are the generally accepted, traditional rules. The details, and the > precise definitions of those terms are a matter of opinion. Here are the > gray areas where fair minded people disagree: > > * Widely replicated -- means somewhere between 5 and 50 laboratories > replicate independently. Some experiments, such as the top quark finding, > cannot be replicated by any other laboratory, but they are accepted anyway, > because it would be impractical to build a duplicate of Fermilab's Collider > Detector Facility (CDF). > > * Peer-reviewed journals -- some people say it must be Nature, others would > accept an on-line publication. Exactly who constitutes a "peer" is > difficult to say. > > * Verify experiment -- this could mean anything from watching over the > researcher's shoulder, to pushing him out of the way and verifying the > reaction in his apparatus with your own instruments. > > The Mills results have reportedly been duplicated by various > laboratories. I do not know wether these other laboratories have published > peer reviewed papers or not. If they have, these are replications. If they > have not, these are pending, incomplete replications, and it is impossible > to judge Mills' claims based upon them. It would not be fair to Mills or > the researchers who duplicated him. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 09:12:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10752; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:05:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:05:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:08:02 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6ivUV1.0.ud2.99ukw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to add another viewpoint to this discussion based on a careful study of all work in the field. Many claims have been made about making excess energy using H2O containing various salts and a Ni cathode. Mills used a large amount of Ni wire as the cathode, a technique known to be very poor. First of all, only the outer most layer of wire would be exposed to electrolytic action. Consequently, the rest of the wire would be completely inert. Second, only Ni having a high surface area has been found to work. Nickel wire does not have a sufficiently high surface area. For these reasons, I'm not surprised that Scott's replication did not work. Indeed, I strongly suspect Mills did not produce any excess either and he knows this. Nevertheless, because he believed at the time he had been successful, as his theory predicted, he went on to explore other methods. These other methods apparently have produced anomalous results consistent with his theory. It is too soon to know if all aspects of his theory are correct or if all his claimed results are explained by his present theory. Nevertheless, a new phenomenon has been discovered. Discussions about the present correctness of the theory or whether this one experiment produced the claimed results is beside the point. The goal of such discussion should be to understand the nature of this new discovery. Perhaps, many people do not know that Dufore in France has duplicated and published many anomalous observations about the phenomenon and has his own theory. Clearly, hydrogen can be forced into a state that allows it to react easily with another nucleus. The nature of this state is still open to debate. Regards, Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > >Without Scott Little validating a set of Mills' data, > >"validating the mathematics in Mills' book" is like > >discussing the proposition that "No more than 30 angels > >can stand on the head of a pin at one time." > > I agree, except that it does not have to be Scott Little, and Scott Little > alone would not suffice. The experiment has to be "widely replicated." The > results have to be published in detail, in peer-reviewed journals. In some > labs (not all), outside observers must be invited to freely observe and > verify experiments. Until that happens, the results cannot be accepted or > rejected. > > Those are the generally accepted, traditional rules. The details, and the > precise definitions of those terms are a matter of opinion. Here are the > gray areas where fair minded people disagree: > > * Widely replicated -- means somewhere between 5 and 50 laboratories > replicate independently. Some experiments, such as the top quark finding, > cannot be replicated by any other laboratory, but they are accepted anyway, > because it would be impractical to build a duplicate of Fermilab's Collider > Detector Facility (CDF). > > * Peer-reviewed journals -- some people say it must be Nature, others would > accept an on-line publication. Exactly who constitutes a "peer" is > difficult to say. > > * Verify experiment -- this could mean anything from watching over the > researcher's shoulder, to pushing him out of the way and verifying the > reaction in his apparatus with your own instruments. > > The Mills results have reportedly been duplicated by various > laboratories. I do not know wether these other laboratories have published > peer reviewed papers or not. If they have, these are replications. If they > have not, these are pending, incomplete replications, and it is impossible > to judge Mills' claims based upon them. It would not be fair to Mills or > the researchers who duplicated him. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:16:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23560; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:14:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:14:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3ABB92BA.2A8354 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:15:22 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: What is this, "eximcom" and DISCONTINUE on Vortex? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2On_x3.0.1m5.m9vkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: March 23, 2001 I posted a message to Vortex yesterday and it showed up as "DISCONTINUE". What is meant by this action by "ecimcon mail.com" through vortex-l eskimo.com? And what was the problem, if any. I noticed there were two other "Discontinue" postings that did not make sense. Is this a form of an automatic langusge use censorship program instituted n the Vortex? -AK- -------- Original Message -------- Subject: DISCONTINUE Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:52:30 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:40:32 +0530 From: "eximcon" Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: Vortex Date: Friday, March 23, 2001 6:32 AM Subject: Art Bell's Thurs/Fri March 22/23, 2001 Guest List: Eugene Mallove, Richard Hoagland >March 22, 2001 > >Vortex, > >I visited Art Bell's web site searching for Linda Moulton Howe's crop >circle interview held on wed/thurs program. It was too late for that >listing but surprise!, found the new listing. > >Art Bell has Eugene Mallove listed as tonight's radio interview guest >and also Richard Hoagland. His four hour (two hours net) is split into >two segments between Mallove and Hoagland. Although on separate >segments, Mallove knows Hoagland and presumably are friends. Having both >of them together may make for a more interesting program. I hope Bell >will allow 'Gene to give a hard hitting cold fusion scene update. >Those lame listener call ins takes the steam out out. > >The latest issue of Infinite Energy has an article of an apparently >successful sonofusion (by Roger Stringham) replication experiment by >Ken Rauren and Eugene Mallove. This was conducted at the New Energy >Research Laboratory (nee Cold Fusion Research Laboratory). > >The same issue has a Front Page article by Jed Rothwell: Cold Fusion, >the Titanic, and the Internet. Very interesting. The observations >written resonates with what I have observed over the years, but not >exclusive to cold fusion. Although we may not admit to it, I think we >are all prone to the shortcomings observed in one shape or another, >whether large or small and personal. > >-AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:51:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00862; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:43:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:43:34 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010323134016.00b36f08 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:40:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose In-Reply-To: <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Wrk9p1.0.KD.Mbvkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 AM 3/23/2001 -0600, you wrote: >I would like to add another viewpoint to this discussion based on a careful >study of all work in the field. > >Many claims have been made about making excess energy using H2O containing >various salts and a Ni cathode. Mills used a large amount of Ni wire as the >cathode, a technique known to be very poor. First of all, only the outer most >layer of wire would be exposed to electrolytic action. Consequently, the rest >of the wire would be completely inert. Second, only Ni having a high surface >area has been found to work. Nickel wire does not have a sufficiently high >surface area. For these reasons, I'm not surprised that Scott's replication >did not work. Indeed, I strongly suspect Mills did not produce any excess >either and he knows this. Nevertheless, because he believed at the time he >had been successful, as his theory predicted, he went on to explore other >methods. These other methods apparently have produced anomalous results >consistent with his theory. It is too soon to know if all aspects of his >theory are correct or if all his claimed results are explained by his present >theory. Nevertheless, a new phenomenon has been discovered. Discussions >about the present correctness of the theory or whether this one experiment >produced the claimed results is beside the point. The goal of such discussion >should be to understand the nature of this new discovery. Perhaps, many >people do not know that Dufore in France has duplicated and published many >anomalous observations about the phenomenon and has his own theory. Clearly, >hydrogen can be forced into a state that allows it to react easily with >another nucleus. The nature of this state is still open to debate. > >Regards, >Ed Storms > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > > > >Without Scott Little validating a set of Mills' data, > > >"validating the mathematics in Mills' book" is like > > >discussing the proposition that "No more than 30 angels > > >can stand on the head of a pin at one time." > > > > I agree, except that it does not have to be Scott Little, and Scott Little > > alone would not suffice. The experiment has to be "widely replicated." The > > results have to be published in detail, in peer-reviewed journals. In some > > labs (not all), outside observers must be invited to freely observe and > > verify experiments. Until that happens, the results cannot be accepted or > > rejected. > > > > Those are the generally accepted, traditional rules. The details, and the > > precise definitions of those terms are a matter of opinion. Here are the > > gray areas where fair minded people disagree: > > > > * Widely replicated -- means somewhere between 5 and 50 laboratories > > replicate independently. Some experiments, such as the top quark finding, > > cannot be replicated by any other laboratory, but they are accepted anyway, > > because it would be impractical to build a duplicate of Fermilab's Collider > > Detector Facility (CDF). > > > > * Peer-reviewed journals -- some people say it must be Nature, others would > > accept an on-line publication. Exactly who constitutes a "peer" is > > difficult to say. > > > > * Verify experiment -- this could mean anything from watching over the > > researcher's shoulder, to pushing him out of the way and verifying the > > reaction in his apparatus with your own instruments. > > > > The Mills results have reportedly been duplicated by various > > laboratories. I do not know wether these other laboratories have published > > peer reviewed papers or not. If they have, these are replications. If they > > have not, these are pending, incomplete replications, and it is impossible > > to judge Mills' claims based upon them. It would not be fair to Mills or > > the researchers who duplicated him. > > > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 10:52:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00697; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:42:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:42:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3ABB92BA.2A8354 ix.netcom.com> References: <3ABB92BA.2A8354 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:42:38 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: What is this, "eximcom" and DISCONTINUE on Vortex? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"IYTXh3.0.lA.javkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It's just someone who wanted off the list and forgot how to do it. I tried to send him email off list but it bounced. It's just a problem that one person is having. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >March 23, 2001 > >I posted a message to Vortex yesterday and it showed up as >"DISCONTINUE". What is meant by this action by "ecimcon mail.com" >through vortex-l eskimo.com? And what was the problem, if any. I noticed >there were two other "Discontinue" postings that did not make sense. Is >this a form of an automatic langusge use censorship program instituted n >the Vortex? > >-AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 11:36:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01757; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:01:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Devices Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:00:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c0b3cb$90a21c10$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323110529.020cdcb0 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"LJsni.0.NR.mrvkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just referring to any experiment , prove baseline is for all components. Carbon has been shown to trap helium. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 8:07 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Devices Matthew Rogers wrote: >I just got done reading the list of devices checked out by the >http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/deviceupd.html website, This is another name for www.infinite-energy.com >And I came across a glaring problem related to the helium production. > >They used in one device a catalyst of carbon and palladium and were checking >on a mass spectrometer the amount of helium generated by the device, >specifically . . . Who are they? Which experiment does this refer to? Helium production has been observed by many researchers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 11:57:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08194; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:39:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:39:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010323134852.00b25ff0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:39:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose Cc: Edmund Storms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LHUIl1.0.v_1.8Qwkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 AM 3/23/2001 -0600, Ed Storms wrote: >I would like to add another viewpoint to this discussion based on a careful >study of all work in the field. > >Many claims have been made about making excess energy using H2O containing >various salts and a Ni cathode. Mills used a large amount of Ni wire as the >cathode, a technique known to be very poor. First of all, only the outer most >layer of wire would be exposed to electrolytic action. Consequently, the rest >of the wire would be completely inert. Dear Ed: This is possibly correct, but may not be because of inertness. Rather, it may be due to the failure of the applied electric field intensity to penetrate the deeper layers of the massive nickel electrode (simple electrostatics) -- even if the nickel was active. =============================================== > Second, only Ni having a high surface >area has been found to work. Nickel wire does not have a sufficiently high >surface area. For these reasons, I'm not surprised that Scott's replication >did not work. There are other reasons. Nickel-light water systems DO generate excess heat if the active nickel material is electrically driven at the center of the optimum operating point manifold (in the input electrical power axis). Thus, there may be more than one reason for the "negative" results. For example, Scott in the past has refused to drive his systems at these critical points (e.g. the KS-bead system) even though his own data indicated that there may have been excess heat in HIS setup at moderate input electrical power levels. It is easy to get a "false negative" by driving the systems outside of the optimum operating point manifold, which appears to be characteristic of the Pd-D20 system (for both tritium and the linked He4-heat production), and the Ni-H2O system, the Arata-type system, and the Mizuno-incandescent system. Unless an experimentalist clearly demonstrates an attempt to seek out the manifold, and sets out to drive the system at the peak of the manifold, then the result may be of little value. refs: Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., G. Verner, A. Frank, H. Fox "Importance of Non-dimensional Numbers and Optimal Operating Points in Cold Fusion", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 215-217 (1999) Swartz, M, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7 (1998) Swartz. M., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz. M., "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material", Fusion Technology, 31, 63-74 (1997) Swartz, M., Verner, G., "The Importance of Controlling Zero-Input Electrical Power Offset", Journal of New Energy, 3, 1, 14-19 (1998) ============================================== > Indeed, I strongly suspect Mills did not produce any excess >either and he knows this. This seems unlikely. I visited Lincoln Labs, personally saw their setup, shared data with them regarding our and their experiments re: the Ni-H2O systems. There is a very modest excess heat for these systems, under the conditions listed above. It is not the "kilowatt" levels reported by those who falsely amplify their results by vertically-directed flow calorimetry, but is a small fraction of that (which is still very important and may someday prove to be very useful). This is why calibration, and measurement of background noise, is so important for each of these systems [including calibrations before and during electrolysis]. refs: Swartz. M.., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz, M, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221 (1996) Swartz, M, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996) Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement in cold fusion systems, Journal of New Energy, 2, 2, 56-61 (1997) ============================================== > Nevertheless, because he believed at the time he >had been successful, as his theory predicted, he went on to explore other >methods. These other methods apparently have produced anomalous results >consistent with his theory. It is too soon to know if all aspects of his >theory are correct or if all his claimed results are explained by his present >theory. Nevertheless, a new phenomenon has been discovered. Discussions >about the present correctness of the theory or whether this one experiment >produced the claimed results is beside the point. The goal of such discussion >should be to understand the nature of this new discovery. Perhaps, many >people do not know that Dufore in France has duplicated and published many >anomalous observations about the phenomenon and has his own theory. Clearly, >hydrogen can be forced into a state that allows it to react easily with >another nucleus. The nature of this state is still open to debate. And there are other theories as to the origin of the excess heat in the nickel light water system. IMO, it is not clear the protium is necessarily the reactant for the desired reactions. Investigations are ongoing, and others are being planned, to determine whether it is protium, or perhaps the very low levels of deuterium in the aqueous solution, that generate the desired reactions. partial refs: Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Swartz, M., "Possible Deuterium Production From Light Water Excess Enthalpy Experiments using Nickel Cathodes", Journal of New Energy, 3, 68-80 (1996) >Regards, >Ed Storms My best wishes, Ed. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:00:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08815; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:42:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:42:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:41:16 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Serendipity at work To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3ABB98CC.8060005 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"-hLl03.0.d92.tSwkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Assuming that Mills' now has a working OU device, as all the accumulating "inside" information professes, then I believe that Edmund Storms has provided the only possible explanation of Randell Mills' 10 year saga that fits all the evidence: > Indeed, I strongly suspect Mills did not produce any excess [thru electrolyis] > and he knows this. Nevertheless, because he believed at the time he > had been successful, as his theory predicted, he went on to explore other > methods. These other methods apparently have produced anomalous results > consistent with his theory... This is the great value of starting out on any new project with a correct theory. It will allow you to "overcome" the devastating effects of shaky results on preliminary experiments: results that could have doomed your work early on. By knowingly or inadvertently configuring those initial results to look positive, you can gain some needed funding and perfect your theoretical underpinnings. Ninety-nine percent of the time this will catch up with you sooner than expected- but in those rare circumstances where you did start out with the correct theory, as Mills seems to have done, then you are given additional opportunities to find the right set of confirming experiments. It pretty much boils down to this for Mills: he had the self-confidence to say damn the results, full speed ahead. It also points out why P&F and others failed. They had no overriding theory to give direction and confidence. Even if history proves that they were onto something that is totally different from the hydrino effect, they were still basically just reporting an anomaly, and a difficult to reproduce anomaly at that. Mills took the approach of figuring out what the true nature of the physical processes were first and then he crafted the technology to prove that theory. I hope that Scott Little, or anyone wanting to confirm this important work, will consider the logic of Storms' insight now - forget electrolysis - and move on to the BLP plasma cell using hydrogen, strontium and argon. Scott probably recognizes now where his first gas phase effort went wrong - he is not likely to get any help from BLP on future efforts at plasma either. But there is a far greater wealth of information on the hydrogen, strontium, argon plasma cell. It is clear that this is the route on which BLP is focusing, and succeeding. It looks like Mills is well prepared to go it alone, to heck with the pundits, self-appointed experts, and the nay-saying PhDs. He may even have a pilot plant awaiting final preparations to ramp up (just a guess). I tip my hat. More power to you Randell. But at the same time, I am also thankful that there is at least one other great concept waiting in the wings, just in case Mills is not the great genius that he presently appears to be. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:01:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06385; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:29:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:29:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: The Myth of Overpopulation Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:28:46 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c0b3cf$7b74fac0$1c962640 bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"-Yalm.0.dZ1.AGwkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree with the excess government, But if we are to bas anyone for using resources unwisely, It would be the communist countries that have no economic interest in it. They abuse the environment , not us. Go visit a industrial city in former East Germany. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:03 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Myth of Overpopulation >As I agree this is off topic I thought I would add this post script on the >"Texas calculations". > When I was at grammar (high school) school in the late 60's/early 70's, >people used to say that you could get the entire world's population onto the >Isle of Wight (an Island about 30 miles long off the south coast of England) >and therefore what is all the fuss about population growth etc (sound >familiar?). I did the opposite calculation - how much room did we have if we >were evenly spread across the entire land surface of Earth. I just redid the >calculations, using my calculator (so much faster than last time!) and added >what the United Nations population study group expects the population will >eventually stabilise at by the end of this century (11 billion). > >YEAR POPULATION >circa 1968 --- 3.6 billion -- land/person = 411 yards sq. = 35 acres >circa 2000 --- 6.0 billion -- land/person = 318 yards sq. = 21 acres >circa 2100 --- 11 billion -- land/person = 235 yards sq. = 11.5 acres > >of course, many of these micro acreage's would be icefields, deserts, steep >sided mountains and generally unpleasant or difficult areas. Also bear in >mind that the average US citizen uses around 2.5 times the natural resources >that the average European does and around 25-30 times that of the poorest >citizens of earth in the least "developed" countries. If we imagine that the >potential 11 billion citizens in 2100 all have the standard of living >Americans "enjoy" today, a very rough calculation shows that we would need >around 30 times our current consumption rate of natural resources. If our >2100 acreage will need to be so much more productive, we have to be able to >extract our total 2000AD current needs for food, water, clothing, energy, >manufacturing materials etc from around 0.7 acres, or a plot of land 58 >yards on a side. Not much room for all the other animals, plants insects etc >that make up the biosphere that maintains our conditions so that life as we >know it can exist on Earth. Welcome to the future. > >Nick Palmer ***{I see two possible scenarios for mankind: (1) We will continue to encourage governments to violate property rights "in the public interest" until they have succeeded in destroying human civilization, and we have entered a darkness from which we will never recover. (2) Some energy breakthrough usable by individuals will become widely disseminated before (1) has happened. In that case, mankind will no longer be limited to the surface of Earth, and calculations of the sort you presented, above, will become moot. Instead, it will become trivial to tunnel deep into the crust, to live under, in, and on the oceans, and to move into space. And when we do that, we will take whatever species of plants and animals we need with us. Result: an unlimited expansion of the biosphere of Earth, with no adverse consequences worth worrying about. Bottom line: the only crisis we face is due to an excess of government, not to an excess of population. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to have for dinner." --Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:23:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27270; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:18:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:18:43 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010323105555.039e0d00 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:07:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HSG: Re: "Smoking Gun"--Revisiting Our List's Purpose In-Reply-To: <004801c0b3b7$8ed9cf40$739264c3 oemcomputer> References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hrb3U.0._f6.Y-wkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:36 PM 3/23/01 +0100, Gudmund Rapp wrote: >I have been off list this for some time but I am very curious about the >fact that Earth Tech with Scott Little, to my knowledge, not having once >been able to duplicate an OU claim of other investigaters. Jed has on >this list and in the Journal Infinite Energy claimed that OU has been >established in many independent laboratories for Cold Fusion in particular >but also for other areas. Taylor J Smith seems to regard Scott Little as >*the referee*. >I think an explanation would be welcome. Gudmund, this is a complex situation. First, we must divide the tests we've performed into three groups. In group 1, which is disappointingly small, there are the cases where we have tested the inventor's own device with his full cooperation. In those cases we have always obtained a unity power balance and we have generally succeeded in identifying the mistake being made by the inventor in his own measurements. The old Magnetic Resonance Amplifier (MRA) is the only one of these I can talk freely about. There are two others which you have probably heard about but I'm under NDA (either official or gentlemen's agreement) not to advertise our results. After all, there is always the possibility that the inventor's device just didn't work properly when I was testing it. The second group are those tests in which we have attemped to replicate the experiment with the inventor's cooperation. For example, our Case experiment and the lengthy Mizuno incandescent W experiments we attempted. In all of those cases we also have always obtained a unity power balance. We just end up mistrusting each others experimental abilities. The problem could easily be on either end in these cases. The third group are those tests in which we cannot obtain the cooperation of the inventor...but the claim looks so attractive that we decide to go for it based solely on published information. Prominent examples are the CETI bead experiment and the various Mills experiments we've done. Only in the first group would I venture to claim that I've actually disproved the inventor's original claim...i.e. proved it to be based upon measurement errors, not a real effect. In the other two groups, with no side-by-side-in-the-same-room comparison, it's impossible to say who's right. My failure to replicate experiments in the 2nd and 3rd groups could be due to a fundamental flaw in the original claim...but it could also be due to my failure to control certain critical parameters in the experiments. The latter is especially likely if the inventor has not publicized such parameters. Now, regarding the claim that cold fusion has been widely replicated and verified in many laboratories, I have to disagree. Instead what I see is many laboratories conducting loosely related (i.e. all involving H/D and/or electrolysis) experiments that are actually quite different. In other words they're not all replicating the same experiment. What's usually reported are barely detectable positive results, except in the cases of (1) calorimetric results where insidious errors can cause really robust-looking positive results; and (2) trace analysis results where contamination sources are extremely difficult to find and eliminate. Yes, there are some results (e.g. Iwamura) that look good to me. Those are the experiments I tend to favor for Earthtech's efforts. Since there are rumors to the contrary, I must point out that our mission here at Earthtech is to FIND a new energy source. In other words, we are doing all these experiments in the hopes that one day we will SUCCEED in replicating the purported phenomena. We're not trying to disprove these things...honest! Regarding your explanation, Gudmund, I suppose we're just the most accessible and visible group trying to confirm these excess heat reports. Folks on this list in particular are bound to be somewhat influenced by the fact that I always post the results of our attempts to our website with pictures, data, and explanations. Everybody, myself included, is probably wishing that some of the labs that are getting positive results would do likewise. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:28:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28488; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:24:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:24:13 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010323150531.00b28cd0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:16:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Serendipity at work In-Reply-To: <3ABB98CC.8060005 pacbell.net> References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZCdB_3.0.zy6.h3xkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:41 AM 3/23/2001 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >It also points out why P&F and others failed. They had no overriding >theory to give direction and confidence. They did not fail, but it is true that their theory was not fully developed. They correctly demonstrated cold fusion. However, they; were unable to make it reproducible because they did not understand the role of critical loading levels, optimal operating points, catastrophic changes in the material, codeposition, or even that helium-4 was produced and linked to excess heat as the desired reaction (one of them). refs: Swartz. M., "Generality of Optimal Operating Point Behavior in Low Energy Nuclear Systems", Journal of New Energy, 4, 2, 218-228 (1999) Swartz. M., "Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments", Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, (1998) Swartz. M., "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32, 126-130 (1997) Swartz, M., "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode", Fusion Technology, 26, 4T, 74-77 (1994) Swartz, M., "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300 (1992) Swartz. M., "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research (1994) =================================================== Those that attempted in 1989 to "reproduce" their results understood the above even less, and failed to understand that penetrating ionizing radiation and neutrons cannot be products of these reactions at these temperatures. Furthermore, many errors (some deliberate apparently) were made in the purportedly "negative" attempts. partial refs: Swartz, M, G. Verner, "Bremsstrahlung in Hot and Cold Fusion", J New Energy, 3, 4, 90-101 (1999) Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Science and Engineering of Hydrided Metals Series, Volume 2 - "Calorimetric ComplicationsThe Examination of the Phase-II Experiment and Other Select Calorimetric Issues", Ed. M. Swartz, JET Technology Press, Wellesley Hills, MA, ISBN 1-890550-02-7 (1999) Swartz, M, "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159 (1994) Swartz, M, "Some Lessons from Optical Examination of the PFC Phase-II Calormetric Curves", Vol. 2, "Proceedings: Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion", 19-1, op. cit. (1993) >Regards, > >Jones Beene Hope that clarifies somewhat, and offers some opportunity for you to more closely examine the literature, and determine what actually happened for yourself. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 12:54:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02443; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:53:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:53:14 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323154529.028e8128 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:52:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills replicated by Thermacore In-Reply-To: <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> References: <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xjz8h2.0.4c.vUxkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >of the wire would be completely inert. Second, only Ni having a high surface >area has been found to work. Nickel wire does not have a sufficiently high >surface area. For these reasons, I'm not surprised that Scott's replication >did not work. Indeed, I strongly suspect Mills did not produce any excess >either and he knows this. In December 1992, Donald Ernst of Thermacore gave a lecture at MIT describing Thermacore's experiments with the Mills Ni-wire device. The lecture was impressive, and the data looks pretty good. I have some lingering doubts about it, because it was rather crude. But Thermacore is one of the world's leading thermal engineering firms, so if they can't do calorimetry, who can? See: http://www.thermacore.com/ I can send a scanned copy of Ernst's viewgraphs to anyone who is interested. They are in JPG format, 28 pages total. There is one other credible replication of this technique, by Lincoln Labs at MIT. Little has been made public about it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:06:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22799; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:01:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:01:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:59:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Lost and Found Resent-Message-ID: <"rhacP3.0.1a5.Pcxkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Knuke's "reply-to" read as follows: "Reply-To: knuke lcia.com." Naturally, that diverted my reply away from vortex, so here we go again. Arg. --MJ}*** >Gnorts, > >For those of you interested in all things Martian and possibly still >missing: > >http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999534 > >A group of military photo-analysts think they may have found >the Mars Polar Lander on some photographs. > >Get out your magnifying glasses! ***{If someone can come up with a link to the image that supposedly contains the polar lander, I would be happy to. Unfortunately, so far this is just talk. And, by the way, this story reeks. The article you referenced, above, contains the following quote: "MPL was 3.6 metres wide and its parachute was 6.0 m wide. The best resolution images available have a pixel size of 1.4 m." If the above is true, then the lander image consists of 9 pixels! Since no "military photo analyst" in his right mind would claim to have identified an object based on an image containing only 9 pixels, it is crystal clear that either this story is a hoax or else NASA has been lying about the resolution of its cameras. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Knuke ________________ Quote of the month: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to have for dinner." --Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:18:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10006; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:17:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:17:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323161613.028e1528 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:17:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mills replicated by Thermacore In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323154529.028e8128 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3ABB74D0.788D2FA8 ix.netcom.com> <99el86+davi eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010323102750.0206e558 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"n0PrS1.0.GS2.Crxkw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >There is one other credible replication of this technique, by Lincoln Labs >at MIT. Little has been made public about it. I should have said: ". . . at least one other credible replication . . ." There may be others. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:20:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25555; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323161339.028d8e38 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:15:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Devices In-Reply-To: <000501c0b3cb$90a21c10$1c962640 bear> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323110529.020cdcb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OE8M01.0.zE6.9qxkw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/41572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matthew Rogers wrote: >Just referring to any experiment , prove baseline is for all components. > >Carbon has been shown to trap helium. The statement cannot refer to "any" experiment because most experiments do not employ carbon. Please restate you objection more carefully, with reference to specific papers if you would like others to comment on them. If you are referring to McKubre's replication of Case, very careful tests of the material were made before and after the experiments, and helium retention in carbon was ruled out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 23 13:26:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25496; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:15:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:15:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010323155434.00a91b88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:13:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell