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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:44:20 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius & MagnetoGravity
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At 1:34 PM 3/31/1, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>>Since the magnet pole force
>>1.0E-7* M^2/R^2 = 2.304E-28 (newtons) = kq^2/R^2** is a constant
>>for any particle, it can be shown that the magnetic force due to the circling
>>of  the charge in a string circle is Time-Dilated due to an Accelerated Frame
>>very near the speed of light c, resulting in the weak magnetogravity force.
>
>M is in Ampere-Meters
>
>Note that without Accelerated Frame correction,  Time/Frequency-Current
>Dilation
>the magnetic pole force is the same as the electrostatic force at unit
>separation.
>
>Horace's 1/R^3 argument applies to the FIELD STRENGTHS not the FORCE.


Yes, but that it bounds the field strengths is sufficient in itself to show
that it bounds the force as well.  The field strength imposed by a dipole
at a large distance is bounded by 1/r^3, thus my point is clearly valid
that a 1/r^2 gravitational force can not be simulated or approximated or
replaced with, or said to exist because of, the forces between magnetic
dipoles, i.e. current loops.  At distance, the field strength is too small
and the force is too small.   This is true specifically  as the ratio, a/r,
of the distance between the dipole poles, or the radius of the current
loop, and the point of force, the point of field measurement, increases.

The field strength of electrostatically charged particles decreases as
1/r^2, as does the force between the charged particles.  The field strength
of magnetic monopoles, if they should happen to be found to exist,
decreases as 1/r^2, as does the force between them.  The dipole field from
opposing pairs of electrostatic dipoles decreases as 1/r^3 in the limit as
r -> inf.  Similarly the dipole field of magnetic poles decreases as 1/r^3
as r -> inf.  The force on a unit charge, be it magnetic or electrostatic
is thus bounded at 1/r^3, and the force between dipoles pairs at distance
is diminished even further.

Further, the force between dipoles is dependent upon their mutual
orientations.  Averaged over all orientations, the force is zero.  You
simply can not represent or replace gravity via a force between many
electromagnetic dipole pairs.  There can be no such first order
"electrogravitic force" that mimics the 1/r^2 nature of gravity.

If there is an electrogravitic force, it must be derived as a second order
effect, a relativistic effect, I think, and one that is on average
isotropic.  If the effect is integrated over all possible mutual
orientations of dipole pairs in three dimensions, and integrates to zero,
like the Lorentz tranformation based relativistic field pancaking effect
does, then that effect can not replicate the effects of gravity any more
than the primary field effects can.

Besides all the above considerations, if gravity were carried by photons
like the EM field is, then black holes could not affect their neighbors
gravitationally, because photons are affected by gravity.  They could not
even become "black."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 00:57:26 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <rockcast net-link.net>
Subject: RE: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:56:20 -0800
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Well, if you don't know what flash is, then you don't know much about the
internet. :P
Flash is a way to view high quality animations on the internet, and is
widely used.

As for the plug in, its FREE and it is only a few hundred K.

If you don't want to view our site with flash, there is a non flash link
that you can click.

You should embrace technology, rather than be afraid of it.

You look at pictures on the web right ? Your computer actually has a small
picture viewer program called a plug in to view pictures. The web browser
justs looks at where the files are stored ,
And sends them to your hard drive, where your browser looks at the file and
tells your computer how to view them.

Am I , or our company a Huckster ? YES and proud of it. I make a living off
what I do and I sell and support our product. We are successful at it.

I am viewing information on this list and others looking for technologies
that may make me more money.

If you want to know about our company, you have a choice .., download a plug
in that everyone uses, Click on the bypass flash link, or don't try either.

Best wishes.



Matt


PS, Our company uses modulated photonic beams mathematically encrypted, to
pass Internet Protocol traffic without wires over long distances at speeds
upwards of 3.5 million bits per second and as high as half a billion bits
per second, at a lower cost than Silicon Oxide infrared light pipe's or
amplitude modulated twisted conductor communication devices.


-----Original Message-----
From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:04 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.

Matt,
    I would check out your site, but it requires that I download
something called 'flash 5' or something.  I have seen these
sites before....download this or that.  Flash or RealAudio
and the like lead to general sites where now you become
a shopper and see hucksters instead of browsing.
    Make a long story short, I bailed rather than go through
a long series of huckster pages vainly seeking a free
download of some program necessary to your page for
some reason.  some of these downloads may be really
bad for my computer's health.  I really do not need to take
two hours out of my evening downloading a 5 megabyte
plug-in that then tries to tell me that I need a license to use
this and need to pay to see that.
    Would you please make your page available for the
general non sucker public to see.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 01:42:34 2001
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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:41:52 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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As a website maker I second that emotion.

Flash can be very dramatic, and even quite useful in demonstrations 
and so forth. But using it to inadvertently bar the front door to 
your site for everyone who isn't using only the very latest and 
greatest computer gear is pretty dumb. I see that all the time, too. 
Use the web to reach out to the world, then make your offering 
inaccessible. Duh-oh!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>Matt,
>    I would check out your site, but it requires that I download
>something called 'flash 5' or something.  I have seen these
>sites before....download this or that.  Flash or RealAudio
>and the like lead to general sites where now you become
>a shopper and see hucksters instead of browsing.
>    Make a long story short, I bailed rather than go through
>a long series of huckster pages vainly seeking a free
>download of some program necessary to your page for
>some reason.  some of these downloads may be really
>bad for my computer's health.  I really do not need to take
>two hours out of my evening downloading a 5 megabyte
>plug-in that then tries to tell me that I need a license to use
>this and need to pay to see that.
>    Would you please make your page available for the
>general non sucker public to see.
>
>Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 03:04:45 2001
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Matt -

<rant>
I haven't checked Ross' site so it might not apply there, but it's a 
fact that many web designers, including those with the skinny glasses 
and weird hair, do NOT know how to use Flash properly. They block the 
front door with some immense download of junk where you can't even 
*get* to the 'bypass' button, if there even is one. And then there's 
my favorite: finally get all the Flash crap loaded, spend five 
minutes figuring out which of the jiggling globs of color on the 
screen are actually navigation buttons, then search through every 
Flash-dripping corner of the barely-functioning (slowwwww....) site 
and find no hint about how to contact the victims of all this 
nonsense they paid the big bucks for! Perhaps they were so 
embarrassed they had their contact info removed?

Many web designers are so busy implementing their cool artistic 
design ideas that they actually never got around to including an 
address, phone number, or even an email link on their client's site, 
let alone make the whole thing basically usable. It's stunning, and I 
assume they're getting *paid* for this. And I am talking about sites 
where they're seriously trying to sell stuff too, not just "raise 
consciousness" about mad cow disease or cold fusion or something. I 
see 'em all the time.
</rant

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 06:16:02 2001
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Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius & MagnetoGravity
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius & MagnetoGravity

Horace wrote:


> At 1:34 PM 3/31/1, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >>Since the magnet pole force
> >>1.0E-7* M^2/R^2 = 2.304E-28 (newtons) = kq^2/R^2** is a constant
> >>for any particle, it can be shown that the magnetic force due to the circling
> >>of  the charge in a string circle is Time-Dilated due to an Accelerated Frame
> >>very near the speed of light c, resulting in the weak magnetogravity force.
> >
> >M is in Ampere-Meters
> >
> >Note that without Accelerated Frame correction,  Time/Frequency-Current
> >Dilation
> >the magnetic pole force is the same as the electrostatic force at unit
> >separation.
> >
> >Horace's 1/R^3 argument applies to the FIELD STRENGTHS not the FORCE.
>
>
> Yes, but that it bounds the field strengths is sufficient in itself to show
> that it bounds the force as well.  The field strength imposed by a dipole
> at a large distance is bounded by 1/r^3, thus my point is .
Snip.

Sorry Horace, but when the distance between two magnetic dipole loops is large wrt
their radii the force between them varies as 1/r^2. Go dig out a college text instead
of trying to wing it.

Regards,   Frederick

>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 07:58:36 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius & MagnetoGravity
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At 7:13 AM 4/1/1, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Sorry Horace, but when the distance between two magnetic dipole loops is
>large wrt
>their radii the force between them varies as 1/r^2. Go dig out a college
>text instead
>of trying to wing it.
>


I am not winging it Fred.  Earlier I provided you with data from a finite
element analysis program, which involved thousands of elements and included
effects of wire dimensions.  I'll be willing to run some more data if you
like, but you might say I'm winging it because I wrote the program.   Or,
you can estimate the force between two (aligned) scalar magnetic moments M1
M2 at distance r, which is repulsive,  by:

   F = -3 mu0 M1 M2 / (2 Pi r^4)

or given they are ideal coils of radii r1 and r2 carrying current i1 and i1
you can use:

   F = -3/2 mu0 Pi (r1)^2 i1 (r2)^2 i2 / r^4

Sorry, no references available.  This is from my notes.  I did not include
a reference.  However, you can probabaly derive the above with some work,
maybe starting with the fact that the ends of very long solenoids act like
monopoles.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 08:09:12 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius & MagnetoGravity
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At 7:13 AM 4/1/1, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Sorry Horace, but when the distance between two magnetic dipole loops is
>large wrt
>their radii the force between them varies as 1/r^2. Go dig out a college
>text instead
>of trying to wing it.
>


I am not winging it Fred.  Earlier I provided you with data from a finite
element analysis program, which involved thousands of elements and included
effects of wire dimensions.  I'll be willing to run some more data if you
like, but you might say I'm winging it because I wrote the program.   Or,
you can estimate the force between two (aligned) scalar magnetic moments M1
M2 at distance r, which is ATTRACTIVE,  by:

   F = -3 mu0 M1 M2 / (2 Pi r^4)

or given they are ideal coils of radii r1 and r2 carrying current i1 and i1
you can use:

   F = -3/2 mu0 Pi (r1)^2 i1 (r2)^2 i2 / r^4

Sorry, no references available.  This is from my notes.  I did not include
a reference.  However, you can probabaly derive the above with some work,
maybe starting with the fact that the ends of very long solenoids act like
monopoles.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 18:07:20 2001
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Vortex down?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  1 18:42:22 2001
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Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 18:29:32 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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Ross Tessien wrote:

 
> In our simulations, we replace the poorly performing water with superior 
> performing molten metals and molten salts, such as LiD.

Hi Ross,

This is very interesting. Do you actually anticipate using LiD as a working 
medium at some future date?

 
> Frankly, I think that cold fusion is a bogus notion, and that cold 
> fusion advocates should take a look at this opinion.  Instead, I think 
> that cold fusion devices may inadvertently be driving violent 
> cavitational implosions inside of their electrodes etc.

Can't you see why this statement borders on being self-contradictory? If cold 
fusion is bogus and its mechanism is cavitation, then isn't cavitation also 
bogus... or are you saying instead, that if cold fusion is real then cavitation 
must be its modus operandi? But if cavitation, as you suggest, is a subset of 
classical fusion and cold fusion is not classical fusion, then the two cannot be 
related... or am I missing something in exactly how you feel these fields are 
related?

When your basic tool is a hammer, I suppose, the tendency is to look for the 
nails in every problem. But what steps have you taken to eliminate the 
possibility that cavitation itself is not classical fusion, but is instead a 
hydrino (or partly hydrino) process, or some other LENR not yet fully described?


> Even Black light and gas phase devices 
> often have a cyclic power source if you look deeper into their machines 
> to find that the power comes from an RF source, capable of exciting 
> acoustic resonances that others overlook.

This would be news to Mills, but there is likely to be some truth to your 
observation unrelated to ultrasound, ie. Mills looks only at the electron 
(orbitsphere) when he should also perhaps consider nuclear changes, possibly 
those initiated by NMR effects.

 

>  The light emissions have excess UV, a good indicator that things are getting hotter.

Or conversely, an indicator that your are dealing with hydrino related 
phenomena. Have you done spectroscopy? Can you tell us the dominant high uv 
frequency peaks you are getting? Are you seeing any gammas?


 > At IDI, we are not advocating any controversial science.  We recognize
 > that cavitation is a tremendously valuable, powerful, robust, amazing
 > process.  We are exploring how to better take advantage of it's
 > abilities by providing the materials that naturally cavitate with more
 > power to do so more violently.

This may be a successful strategy up until that point that you realize that what 
you are dealing with is really not classical fusion at all. Then, because you 
have tailored you entire research strategy around "fitting into the mainstream," 
what happens when you can no longer keep up the facade? Will you have the 
courage to say, at the expense of loosing funding, that something new and 
exciting is going on outside of classical fusion?

> So, is IDI just howling at the moon?  or is IDI simply taking advantage 
> of the fact that none of the physicists have to date noticed that the 
> liquids they have been using to study SL are poor ones for driving 
> intense cavitational processes?  My contention is that they have been 
> blinded by the light, meaning, they are studying SL and it's light 
> emissions using transparent liquids at ambient pressure, whereas the 
> real game is out there in more rigid, liquid metals, being driven with 
> extreme pressures.

This sounds extremely interesting and exciting and the above comments are not 
intended to appear critical to your efforts - only to point out that a few of 
your secondary conclusions may not be as carefully considered as you main focus.


 
> Time will tell, and now and then I will keep you up to date with 
> progress.  but, I would appreciate it if all of your discussion makes it 
> clear that IDI is working on HOT fusion (between us I do hope some other 
> a-neutronic processes are conquered......but I can't advocate that today 
> because it would drop me into the CF camp and that would be the kiss of 
> death for funding)

I don't think many observers on this forum really believe that you are working 
on hot fusion at all, at least not as it has been taught for the last half 
century. And although everyone needs funding, at some point your real 
convictions will have to find their own level of comfort in that funding struggle.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 00:22:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: hydrino yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Relativistic version of new-orbits mathcad file - relativistic.zip
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:20:15 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

After a long and frequently discouraging weekend, here is the result of =
my
attempts to derive a relativistically corrected version of Steven =
Florek's
idea that the De Broglie wave can wrap around the atom multiple times,
before reconnecting with itself, such that it remains in phase.
I have included the assumption that electric potential goes at the cost =
of
the relativistic mass of the electron. (That's the only way I could get =
it
to come out, without resulting in nonsense ;).
It provides a few surprises, and what may be a hint of a new insight into
the nature of nature (see comments at end).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 00:41:42 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: hydrino yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Relativistic version  - READ ME FIRST
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:40:58 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Well, it was so pretty, pity that it's wrong. It predicts an energy release
of 27.2 eV for the formation of the hydrogen atom  iso 13.6.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 06:34:45 2001
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:33:16 -0500
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Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go 
when it gets smelted?

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 06:51:11 2001
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:50:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Relativistic version of new-orbits mathcad file -
  relativistic.zip
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At 05:20 PM 4/2/01 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>After a long and frequently discouraging weekend, here is the result of my
>attempts to derive a relativistically corrected version of Steven Florek's

Um...   File format?  I do not know what uses .MCD files
Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
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cjford1 swbell.net

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 06:51:26 2001
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Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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At 08:33 AM 4/2/01 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:

>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go 
>when it gets smelted?

In a blast furnace, it's "grabbed away" from the Fe2O3 by C from the coke 
you're burning to produce the necessary heat.  The oxygen therefore ends up 
as CO or CO2.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 08:13:42 2001
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Window and DOS computer clocks seem to drift badly. I have a mild obsession 
with setting the right time on all clocks in the house. That's a problem 
during the daylight savings shift. I have a Radio Shack radio controlled 
clock that synchs itself to the shortwave time signal (Cat. 63-970). Here 
is a small utility for Windows computers to synchronize via Internet:

http://www.gregorybraun.com/WebTime.html

Also, do not forget to check smoke alarm batteries.

This has been a public service message.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 09:02:32 2001
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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:00:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Relativistic version of new-orbits mathcad file - relativistic.zip
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At 5:20 PM 4/2/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Hi,
>
>After a long and frequently discouraging weekend, here is the result of my


Is anyone reading this stuff?  I for one, do not have a current version of
Mathcad, and even if I did, and even if I read my email on a PC, I would
never open a zip file from a news list due to the possibility of worms or
viruses.


>attempts to derive a relativistically corrected version of Steven Florek's
>idea that the De Broglie wave can wrap around the atom multiple times,
>before reconnecting with itself, such that it remains in phase.


Mill's theory still makes no sense to me because it clearly violates
Heisenberg.  You just can't cram all that energy into such small volumes
with stability.  The energy corresponding to the de Broglie wavelength,
which is much larger than the corresponding ionization potetntials, is
still required to be trapped in the oprbital volume, be it "wrapped around"
or not.


>I have included the assumption that electric potential goes at the cost of
>the relativistic mass of the electron. (That's the only way I could get it
>to come out, without resulting in nonsense ;).


The electron increases in velocity and kinetic energy with reduced orbital
radius, thus gamma and thus its relativistic kinetic mass should increase
with radius.  However, as two point charges approach, thus increasing their
field overlap, the field energy and thus corresponding field mass
decreases.  The dynamics of the dipole field adjusting throughout the
universe to the change in the tiny local status of the dipole sources
results in radiation.


>It provides a few surprises, and what may be a hint of a new insight into
>the nature of nature (see comments at end).


It would be nice to have discussions in an email based newslist be
primarily by email.  I guess I shouldn't complain.  I don't have time to
read stuff anyway.

Gee, doing taxes makes me grouchy!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 11:02:06 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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At 8:47 AM 4/2/1, Scott Little wrote:
>At 08:33 AM 4/2/01 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
>
>>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go
>>when it gets smelted?
>
>In a blast furnace, it's "grabbed away" from the Fe2O3 by C from the coke
>you're burning to produce the necessary heat.  The oxygen therefore ends up
>as CO or CO2.


So an electroylic process of reducing the iron, like that used for
aluminum, would produce oxygen.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 12:26:49 2001
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:09:33 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: N.Y. Times: Bush Admin. Reconsiders Conservation Measures
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(Note that on Feb. 8, the Yomiuri reported that electric power peak 
consumption in Japan reached its maximum in 1996 and has been falling 
steadily ever since. Experts ascribe fall in demand mainly to improved air 
conditioners, natural-gas power air conditioning, and privately owned large 
scale generators and co-generators.)

Some quotes from:

New York Times

March 31, 2001
Clinton Energy-Saving Rules Are Getting a Second Look
By MATTHEW L. WALD

WASHINGTON, March 30  The Energy Department is reviewing energy efficiency 
standards, issued in the last weeks of the Clinton administration, that 
would require new clothes washers, water heaters and central 
air-conditioners to use less electricity and natural gas.  . . .

. . . People involved in the review said the standard under closest 
scrutiny was the one governing air-conditioners; if left standing, it would 
save the most electricity and reduce pollution from power plants the most, 
but would also impose the greatest costs.

The rule requires that beginning in 2006, new central air-conditioners (and 
also central heat pumps, which can heat or cool) run on 30 percent less 
electricity than under current minimum standards of efficiency. In 
negotiations that led to the rule, the manufacturers had pressed for 
improvement of only 20 percent. . . .

Bush administration officials say they can rescind any rule not yet in 
force. . . .

Dan W. Reicher, who was assistant secretary for energy efficiency and 
renewable energy in the Clinton administration, said, "It's stunning that 
at the very moment the new administration is telling us there's an energy 
crisis, they would be looking at rolling back standards that will save us 
more energy than virtually anything else we've done in 20 years."

Mr. Reicher said the economics of the regulations looked even more 
favorable now, after a period of rising prices for natural gas and 
electricity, than when the rules were drafted last year.

Efficiency experts say that in California, air-conditioning consumes 28 
percent of the electricity used during peak hours in summer, and that a 
standard that takes the low-efficiency models off the market would 
gradually reduce the need for new power plants.

But the industry argues that the cost could exceed $5 billion and that the 
pay-back period for consumers  the length of time it would take for their 
cumulative electricity savings to equal the additional cost of a 
higher-efficiency air-conditioner  would be 9 to 14 years.

The politics of the clothes-washer standard is more complicated. The 
manufacturers' trade group, the Association of Home Appliance 
Manufacturers, is pleading to keep the rule in place.

"The whole rationale" behind negotiations that led to that rule was that 
"the members wanted a standard which they could plan towards," said Edward 
C. Foley Jr., director of the group's major-appliance and supplier 
division. "Certainty is always better than uncertainty."

Under this rule, the improvements are to come in two stages, in 2004 and in 
2007. The improvement in efficiency is put at 35 percent. . . .

[Under the new regulations] water heaters will need more insulation and may 
require a U-shaped trap to stop hot water from rising up the pipe when no 
faucet is turned on, keeping the water in the heater until it is needed. 
Efficiency improvement is put at 5 to 9 percent.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 12:28:22 2001
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:20:35 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Horace,

Zip files does not offer any advantages to viruses/worms than other
attachment types. I and possibly nobody knows any method to to a virus
pretend as a zip file. I had also never encountered a vulnerability on
zip files allowing actual file name included in a zip file be different
rom name shown on listing. I mean even you use a non graphical interface,
you can check names in the archive without opening them.


If these extensions of these files are not exe, com, bat, js, jse, vbs,
vbe, url, lnk, pif, doc, xls, etc., it  would be considered safe to open these files.

At last, I also does not encountered any report buffer overflow vulnerability on zip files.

In short, zip files in mail attachments does not cause extra risk.

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 5:20 PM 4/2/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >After a long and frequently discouraging weekend, here is the result of my
> 
> Is anyone reading this stuff?  I for one, do not have a current version of
> Mathcad, and even if I did, and even if I read my email on a PC, I would
> never open a zip file from a news list due to the possibility of worms or
> viruses.
> 
[snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:34:21 2001
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Subject: Artificial Structures on Mars - Press Conference in D.C. - 4/5/01
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:14:10 -0400
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Meta Research
PO Box 15186 
Chevy Chase, MD 20825-5186


Press Release                                                             
                                                       Date: April 3, 2001
Re:  Artificial Structures on Mars

Washington, DC ­ On Thursday, April 5, 2001 at 9 a.m., Meta Research 
[<http://metaresearch.org>, ³About Meta Research² tab] will release new 
findings that provide compelling evidence for the presence of artificial 
structures on the planet Mars.  The press conference will be held at the 
National Press Club, 529 14th Street, NW, Washington, DC, in the main 
room on the 13th floor.

Widely published astronomer, Dr. Thomas Van Flandern will take Q&A and 
present findings representing contributions by dozens of researchers, 
including physicists, geologists, engineers, and image processing 
specialists from several organizations.

The presentation materials will include photographic evidence from the 
NASA¹s Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft, as well as independent 
photographic analysis.  Several of these images have not previously been 
made public. The main room of the National Press Club was chosen to 
utilize its excellent video projection equipment.

Other topics to be discussed include the following:
ß	the posture of NASA and its contractor, JPL, toward evidence of 
anomalous features
ß	difficulties in obtaining proper consideration from primary peer review 
journals
ß	the urgent need for retargeting of the Mars Global Surveyor towards 
specific areas of high interest in connection with potential artifacts 
before the spacecraft runs out of maneuvering fuel later this year

Contact: 	Meta Research	202/362-9176	metares mindspring.com
Press packets will be available on April 5 at the National Press Club.
The press conference will be simulcast on the Internet worldwide at 
<http://ConnectLive.com/events/metaresearch>.

****** OPEN LETTER TO NASA's Dan Goldin

Meta Research
PO Box 15186 
Chevy Chase, MD 20825-5186

March 31, 2001

NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin
NASA Headquarters
300 E Street, SW
Washington, DC 20546-0001

Dear Dr. Goldin:

	This letter is to advise that Meta Research will be holding a press 
conference in the main room of the National Press Club, 529 14th Street, 
NW, Washington, DC, 13th floor, at 9:00 a.m. on 2001 April 5, of likely 
interest to NASA. The title of the conference is ³Artificial structures 
on Mars². Most of the evidence presented (in six different categories) 
will be based on NASA/JPL/MSSS high-resolution imagery from the Mars 
Global Surveyor spacecraft. You are cordially invited to attend, either 
in person or via our live webcast, or to send a representative.

	About 18 months ago, some of our team of research scientists 
communicated that we had results of likely interest to the Head of the 
Solar System Exploration program, Dr. Carl Pilcher. He indicated that it 
was time for peer review. Our technical paper has now been reviewed by 
dozens of experts in a variety of fields without any significant flaw 
being detected. However, when we took this to Nature, and later to 
Science, the paper was rejected without review based on subject matter 
alone. In large measure, that happened because this subject matter 
(artifacts on Mars) was inappropriately undermined by JPL¹s premature 
release of a filtered image of the Cydonia Face mesa that seriously 
misrepresents what the spacecraft saw on Mars. The use of a 
detail-suppressing high-pass filter on an image where details are crucial 
is documented at JPL¹s web site at 
<http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html>. The properly 
processed image of the Face mesa may be viewed at 
<http://metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/ 
proof_files/face443x443_6.2.00.mov>, which animates the corrections for 
lighting and viewing angle. Our unpublished technical paper will be 
included in the press kit.

	We expect this press conference to be of interest to NASA because even a 
disproof of artificiality would be a scientifically interesting and 
revealing exercise; from which we are sure to learn things about 
enigmatic geology that will play a vital role in understanding the 
formation of Earth-like planetary bodies such as Mars. On the other hand, 
a confirmation of artifacts would surely lead to increased public support 
for NASA and immediate impetus for a manned mission to Mars.
	Sincerely yours,


	Tom Van Flandern, Ph.D.
	Research Astronomer: 202/362-9176

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:45:08 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go
>when it gets smelted?

***{Here is a link that will give you a basic overview of the modern
steelmaking process: http://www.steel.org.uk/makstl.html. As Scott noted,
in a blast furnace the oxygen goes off as CO or CO2. Result: on Mars, that
would pose a problem, because it is hard to imagine a local fuel that could
drive the process. Oxygen would be needed to burn petroleum or coal, if
such deposits could be found; and oxygen is used in the electric arc
furnace and the basic oxygen converter as well. Thus Mars colonists would
need some way to generate oxygen in massive quantities, as a preliminary to
the creation of a steel industry. Either they would have to find commercial
deposits of some ore that would evolve oxygen when heated, and in
quantities sufficient to produce a large oxygen excess above and beyond
what would be needed to burn petroleum, natural gas, or coal, or else they
would have to find commercial deposits of uranium and build nuclear power
plants. In the latter case, they would produce all the oxygen they needed
by electrolysis of water--which is doubtlessly present in hydrate ores in
massive quantities beneath the surface. --MJ}***

>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:45:11 2001
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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:41:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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>At 8:47 AM 4/2/1, Scott Little wrote:
>>At 08:33 AM 4/2/01 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
>>
>>>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go
>>>when it gets smelted?
>>
>>In a blast furnace, it's "grabbed away" from the Fe2O3 by C from the coke
>>you're burning to produce the necessary heat.  The oxygen therefore ends up
>>as CO or CO2.
>
>
>So an electroylic process of reducing the iron, like that used for
>aluminum, would produce oxygen.

***{That's an excellent suggestion for the Mars situation: produce iron and
oxygen at the same time, since both are needed. The only potential problem
that leaps to mind is that before any substance can be reduced by
electrolysis, it must first be dissolved or melted, so that ions will be
available to carry the electric current. In the case of aluminum
production, the initial problem was that aluminum oxide (Al2O3) melts at
2050 deg. C, whereas pure aluminum melts at 660 deg. C. Thus the heat
required to raise the temperature the extra 1390 deg. C made the production
of aluminum by electrolysis very costly. This problem was not solved until
Al2O3 was found to dissolve in molten cryolite (Na3AlF6) at about 1000 deg.
C. However, hematite (Fe2O3) is not as hard to melt as aluminum oxide: it
becomes liquid at 1565 deg. C, which is a mere 30 deg. C higher than the
melting point of iron. Result: no substance analogous to cryolite should be
required to render the reduction of iron by electrolysis viable, and I find
myself wondering why such a method is not in use by industry already. Could
it be that there is some subtle flaw in the idea that does not leap readily
to mind? --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:46:04 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Relativistic version of new-orbits mathcad file - relativistic.zip
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:41:56 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:50:30 -0500:

>At 05:20 PM 4/2/01 +1000, you wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>After a long and frequently discouraging weekend, here is the result of my
>>attempts to derive a relativistically corrected version of Steven Florek's
>
>Um...   File format?  I do not know what uses .MCD files
[snip]
Hi Charlie,

MCD files are mathcad. However don't bother with this one, it's wrong
anyway. I'll put the next one on my web site, and you can read it with your
web browser, if it has a Mathcad plugin installed.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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[snip]

no substance analogous to cryolite should be
>required to render the reduction of iron by electrolysis viable, and I find
>myself wondering why such a method is not in use by industry already. Could
>it be that there is some subtle flaw in the idea that does not leap readily
>to mind?

***{Perhaps the flaw is simply that the Hall process (for the production of
aluminum) uses carbon anodes and gives off CO2 for a reason. What happens
is that the oxygen which is released at the anode by the electrolysis
process combines with carbon in the anode, and goes off as CO2. I had
assumed that it would be a simple matter to substitute an anode made of
some substance which would not react with the oxygen--e.g., platinum--so
that the oxygen would go off instead. But what if that is not the case?
What if, when the anode does not react with the oxygen to produce CO2, the
oxygen simply reacts with the aluminum in the solution again, and produces
a crust of Al2O3 at the top of the electrolyte? In that case, the analogous
problem would probably exist in the reduction of hematite: if the oxygen
did not react with the anode to produce CO2, it would simply react with the
iron in the solution before it bubbled off, and revert to hematite again.
--MJ}***

>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
>protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
>opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 16:09:45 2001
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Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!

Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> ***{That's an excellent suggestion for the Mars situation: produce iron and
> oxygen at the same time, since both are needed. The only potential problem
> that leaps to mind is that before any substance can be reduced by
> electrolysis, it must first be dissolved or melted, so that ions will be
> available to carry the electric current. In the case of aluminum
> production, the initial problem was that aluminum oxide (Al2O3) melts at
> 2050 deg. C, whereas pure aluminum melts at 660 deg. C. Thus the heat
> required to raise the temperature the extra 1390 deg. C made the production
> of aluminum by electrolysis very costly. This problem was not solved until
> Al2O3 was found to dissolve in molten cryolite (Na3AlF6) at about 1000 deg.
> C. However, hematite (Fe2O3) is not as hard to melt as aluminum oxide: it
> becomes liquid at 1565 deg. C, which is a mere 30 deg. C higher than the
> melting point of iron. Result: no substance analogous to cryolite should be
> required to render the reduction of iron by electrolysis viable, and I find
> myself wondering why such a method is not in use by industry already. Could
> it be that there is some subtle flaw in the idea that does not leap readily
> to mind? --MJ}***

Carbon-Coke reduction of iron (Fe2O3 or Fe3O4) is a lot cheaper and convenient that
umpteen kilowatt-hours
per ton.  :-)

OTOH, on mars with a  compact 300 megawatt fission reactor you would fission about 200
kg/year of U235.
How many tons/year of Fe and O2 would that produce,
all of ye olde electrochemists?

Regards,  Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 18:51:49 2001
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Cc: "jlsparber" <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <Ron.Brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion and Transmutation on a Battery Terminal?
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Note that Negative Light Leptons (LL-) that should be abundant in
the atmosphere collect on the Positive terminal of Lead Acid 
Batteries, and in the presence of H2O build up a "gunk" that
is probably rich in Lead Transmutation By-products.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 19:55:24 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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At 08:47 AM 4/2/01 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:33 AM 4/2/01 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
>
>>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go 
>>when it gets smelted?
>
>In a blast furnace, it's "grabbed away" from the Fe2O3 by C from the coke 
>you're burning to produce the necessary heat.  The oxygen therefore ends 
>up as CO or CO2.

An interesting subject for the chemists.  If you use the Fe2O3 as a 
resistance it can be heated electrically.  The oxy will leach out and leave 
you with iron to build shelters.  But this process will not remove the CO2 
from the air.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 20:03:20 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gigantic Iron Ore Deposit on Mars!
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At 09:21 AM 4/2/01 -0900, you wrote:
>At 8:47 AM 4/2/1, Scott Little wrote:
> >At 08:33 AM 4/2/01 -0500, Adam Cox wrote:
> >
> >>Hematite happens to be an iron oxide  (Fe2O3... where does the oxygen go
> >>when it gets smelted?
> >
> >In a blast furnace, it's "grabbed away" from the Fe2O3 by C from the coke
> >you're burning to produce the necessary heat.  The oxygen therefore ends up
> >as CO or CO2.
>
>
>So an electroylic process of reducing the iron, like that used for
>aluminum, would produce oxygen.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Seems more efficient then heat but on those cold Martian nights it might be 
handy to have a hot chunk of iron to warm your tush.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 20:44:06 2001
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On my computer I've used software to recognize speech, and translation software, and
speech synthesizers.

I've heard that speech recognition programs can already be made better than human
recognition, and translation software goes from great to awful depending on which one, but
it sure seems it can improve, and speech synthesis is no problem

So a universal translator is not too far off, and a test one could be put together in a
few hours...


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here is a development I did not expect to see for many years. The CIA
> recently claimed they have  effective machine translation (MT). See the
> Washington Post, March 26, 2001, "Making Sense of the Deluge of Data." Quotes:
>
> Software called "Fluent" enables CIA personnel to perform "cross lingual"
> searches in English of Web sites in Chinese and 10 other languages, from
> Russian to Japanese. The software then translates the results almost
> instantaneously into English. . . .
>
> . . . Another program, called "Oasis," uses "automated speech recognition"
> technology pioneered by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency to
> turn audio feeds into formatted, searchable text. . .
>
> A half-hour broadcast, which used to take an analyst 90 minutes to listen
> to, assess and disseminate, now can be processed -- and stored
> in  searchable format -- in 10 minutes, officials said. . . .
>
> If they really have technology that good, it is a crime they are
> withholding it from the public. We paid for it with out taxes, we deserve a
> chance to use it. There are various paid and free translation software
> packages available. Here is a sample:
>
> http://babelfish.altavista.com
>
> Here is a run-on sentence from a Japanese newspaper "translated" by
> Babblefish. "Mangled" would be a better word:
>
> According to written indictment and the like, suspect Matsuo such as the
> Saudi Arabian visit of Prime Minister November of 1997 Hasimoto with
> foreign visit three of total, inflating the estimate of the hotel
> generation where attendance group lodges, claimed to the official
> residence, deceived the secret expense meter approximately 42440000 Yen
> of  amount which exceeds stipulated traveling expenses from head Cabinet
> Councilor of the Cabinet secretariat, and took.
>
> Here is a sentence from a recent paper by Mizuno:
>
> You could do the report of the normal temperature nuclear fusion with the
> electrolysis in the heavy water of the palladium in 1989 with the
> Fleischmann and the Pons, but because reproducibility and control quite are
> difficult, even in retest of many researchers the majority has ended in the
> failure in spite.
>
> Here is that sentence translated by a human being (me):
>
> In 1989, Fleischmann and Pons reported that palladium electrolyzed in heavy
> water produces the so-called cold fusion reaction, however because
> reproducibility and control of the phenomenon have been difficult, although
> many researchers attempted to replicate, most failed.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 21:50:23 2001
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1, Electrolysis of  12 H2O ( 216 tons) to 12 H2  (24 tons) +  6 O2  (192 tons)

At 25 Kw-hr /lb Hydrogen =  1.2E6 kw-hr/24 tons of Hydrogen and 192 tons of Oxygen

2, 12 H2 (24 tons) +  4 Fe2O3 (640 tons) ---> 4 Fe (224 tons) + 12 H2O (216 tons)

At $.01/kw-hr  = $12,000.00 for 224 tons of iron or about 3 kw-hr/ pound 
(aluminum reduction averages about 9 kw-hr/pound ) plus 192 tons of Oxygen.

Doable with a fission reactor power plant, but it sounds like a boondoggle to me.

Regards,     Frederick

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Well here's the next relativistic attempt - relativistic.zip
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:22:35 +1000
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----=_b1rictsu2ljb5qbjk1r1cr15u9mk8avhod.MFSBCHJLHS
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Hi,

Please pick holes in this :). Note that for shrinkage from level 1 to =
level
2, only 40.8 eV is available, which is not enough for a LL pair   54.4 =
eV.
(Unless I'm too tired and am missing something).
This may mean that shrinkage to the second level from the first is
impossible, or at least only possible with creation of a different LL =
pair.
However directly from first to any of the other levels shouldn't present =
a
problem.
I suspect that Dr. Mills also has this problem, as he needs 27.2 eV for =
his
"electron hole", and I think another 27.2 eV for a trapped photon (though=
 I
could be mistaken about that).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 23:30:07 2001
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	Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:28:57 -0700
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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:33:43 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars
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At 10:48 PM 4/2/1, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>1, Electrolysis of  12 H2O ( 216 tons) to 12 H2  (24 tons) +  6 O2  (192 tons)
>
>At 25 Kw-hr /lb Hydrogen =  1.2E6 kw-hr/24 tons of Hydrogen and 192 tons
>of Oxygen
>
>2, 12 H2 (24 tons) +  4 Fe2O3 (640 tons) ---> 4 Fe (224 tons) + 12 H2O
>(216 tons)
>
>At $.01/kw-hr  = $12,000.00 for 224 tons of iron or about 3 kw-hr/ pound
>(aluminum reduction averages about 9 kw-hr/pound ) plus 192 tons of Oxygen.
>


The byproduct heat can be used for cogeneration, which should improve
generating efficiency and produce produce auxillary power and heat when
needed too - maybe some to run a greenhouse.  Also, massive power storage
needed for Mars to orbit railgun and other launch capabilities.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 23:41:10 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Computation of Classical Electron Radius
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:38:14 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:31:24 -0600:
[snip]
>Now that you see how simple it was, don't you feel foolish? :-)

Yes, I see that it is terribly unwise to engage you in debate ;).
[snip]
>charge and, thus, some potential energy. Of course, that outcome, again,
>contradicts your desire to equate rest mass and potential energy.
>
>It also occurs to me that if rest mass were in general equivalent to
>potential energy, then we would obtain m = e^2/rc^2 for electrons in the
>vicinity of a proton. In that case, an electron orbiting a proton at the

I think you may be neglecting the sign of the charge. Take a look at my
latest effort in the thread "Well here's the next relativistic attempt".
The idea is that as the potential increases, so does the rest mass, and
conversely both also decrease together.

(Where the potential is taken with its zero point at infinite distance).
IOW m = e^2/rc^2 is an expression of the rest mass lost, not the rest mass
remaining.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:27:28 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: New hydrogen model posted on web page
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:24:13 +1000
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Hi,

As promised, I have also posted a web page here:

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 01:14:07 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 18:08:55 +1000
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:33:43 -0900:
[snip]
>needed too - maybe some to run a greenhouse.  Also, massive power storage
>needed for Mars to orbit railgun and other launch capabilities.
You or Fred aren't seriously suggesting mining iron on mars and sending it
to Earth are you? Iron is about the fourth most abundant element in the
Earth's crust. If you want to see a large deposit, come to Australia and see
the "red centre", which gets its colour from the iron oxides. Red - for
hundreds of kilometers, in all directions.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 01:18:12 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars
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At 6:08 PM 4/3/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:33:43 -0900:
>[snip]
>>needed too - maybe some to run a greenhouse.  Also, massive power storage
>>needed for Mars to orbit railgun and other launch capabilities.
>You or Fred aren't seriously suggesting mining iron on mars and sending it
>to Earth are you? Iron is about the fourth most abundant element in the
>Earth's crust. If you want to see a large deposit, come to Australia and see
>the "red centre", which gets its colour from the iron oxides. Red - for
>hundreds of kilometers, in all directions.
>


No, not at all.  Mars folks will need structural materials to build habitat
and launch facilities, and oxygen too.  Will need CO2 for plants as well,
but there is plenty of that.  Ultimately, Mars may be a good civilization
base from which to mine the asteroid belt.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars

Robin  wrote:


> In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:33:43 -0900:
> You or Fred aren't seriously suggesting mining iron on mars and sending it
> to Earth are you? Iron is about the fourth most abundant element in the
> Earth's crust. If you want to see a large deposit, come to Australia and see
> the "red centre", which gets its colour from the iron oxides. Red - for
> hundreds of kilometers, in all directions.

Probably like the rest of Australia it's a fragment that came from Mars.  Even brought
the Rescuer's Down Under along with it.   :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 04:21:09 2001
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Going by the abundance of Red Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) on Mars, if the
unoxidized iron was molten (> 1828 deg K)in the planet's early stages,
it's reaction with water:

2 Fe + 3 H2O <---> Fe2O3 + 6 H

would allow the hydrogen (H atoms) to exceed the Mars escape
velocity of 5.1E3 meters/second:

1/2mv^2/k = T

where T is the Mars escape temperature for hydrogen atoms (1564 deg K)
and k is the Boltzman constant 1.38E-23 joule/deg K.

Not much chance for photosynthesis: CO2 + H2O + light ---> CH2O + O2 without
water.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 07:37:36 2001
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


> As promised, I have also posted a web page here:
> 
> http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html



Thanks Robin,

This is starting to look very interesting!

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 08:32:40 2001
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Subject: Keith Tutt's new book 'The Search for Free Energy'
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NEWS RELEASE - THE SEARCH FOR FREE ENERGY

Keith Tutt's new book 'The Search for Free Energy'
is published in the UK today by Simon and Schuster.

Sir Arthur C. Clarke has already described this book as 'a fascinating and
often highly amusing account...'

The book describes the work of inventors and scientists looking for
solutions to our most pressing problem - the need for a clean, fuelless
energy source with which to combat global warming.

In his foreword to the book, SIr Arthur C. Clarke also says 'I do not
believe that any unbiased reader will put down this book without feeling
that something strange is happening at the fringes of physics'

To view extracts from the book, and to place orders go to
www.thesearchforfreeenergy.com

*******
REVIEW OF BOOK to appear in Infinite Energy, Issue #37, May 2001:

The Search for Free Energy‹A Scientific Tale of Jealously, Genius, and 
Electricity
by Keith Tutt, Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke
ISBN 0-684-86660-9 
L18.99, Hardcover, 354 pages
Simon and Schuster, U.K. , 2001
       Reviewed by Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-chief, Infinite 
Energy Magazine 
       (This book WILL be available through Infinite Energy, 
www.infinite-energy.com)

The universe of credible cold fusion books has expanded since 1991‹in 
temporal sequence: by Mallove, Kozima, Mizuno, and Beaudette.  As 2001 
dawned, it was time for a book that treats, in adequate depth but 
generally in overview, not only cold fusion, but a host of past and 
present claims for anomalous energy devices. Keith Tutt¹s The Search for 
Free Energy, just released by the U.K. branch of Simon and Schuster, is 
such a landmark book. I have no doubt that some of the devices considered 
by the author will become robust free-energy technologies early this 
century‹shattering the myths of the naysayers in one of the greatest 
scientific revolutions of all time.  

Keith Tutt, a skilled screenplay writer and science journalist since 
1981, has years of experience producing science and environmental 
documentaries for the BBC, some of them award-winning. His educational 
background in psychology and philosophy made him well-suited to assess 
the often eccentric and at times not understandable behavior of the 
bestiary of free energy scientists, inventors, and occasional fraudsters. 
This is a very well written work, which takes up where Jeanne Manning¹s 
excellent classic The Coming Energy Revolution (1996) left off.  
Of this book¹s twelve chapters, two are devoted to an in-depth look at 
cold fusion, and if one counts the one devoted to BlackLight Power as 
part of the cold fusion story as do I, a full one-fourth of the book is 
cold fusion-related.  I am very appreciative that Tutt has exposed to a 
potentially very large audience the important historical nugget of the 
scandal against cold fusion at MIT, which was first revealed in detail in 
Infinite Energy.  It is an honor for our magazine to have become 
something of a guiding star to those new to the free-energy scene. Keith 
Tutt, indeed, brings a fresh perspective to the field.

Readers will find excellent treatments of the work of Tesla, T. Henry 
Moray, and the Thesta-Distatica device of the Merthernitha community in 
Switzerland.  The author records his on-site visit and struggle to assess 
the claims for this apocryphal power technology.  We meet a host of free 
energy developers of varying quality, such as Stefan Marinov, the 
Correas, Bruce DePalma, Joseph Newman, and lesser known figures who are 
familiar to devotees of the field.  I agree with the conclusion of Tutt¹s 
explorations, ³I have no doubt that in the free energy field as a whole 
only a relatively small percentage of what is claimed is incontrovertibly 
true.²  Yet in that category are some of the most important discoveries 
in history. 

Sir Arthur C. Clarke, whose new energy perspective may well be vindicated 
in this very special year for him, ³2001,² has written a  generous 
Foreword.  Two paragraphs deserve repeating: ³I do not believe that any 
unbiased reader will put down this book without feeling that something 
strange is happening at the fringes of physics. Exactly the same thing 
happened just a century ago, when a new and totally unexpected source of 
energy was discovered.  From Bequerel¹s 1896 fogged photographic plate to 
nuclear power took less than fifty years. Now another revolution is 
urgently needed; let us hope it is even swifter.²
³In 1973, when OPEC started to multiply the price of oil, I predicted: 
ŒThe age of cheap power is over‹ the age of free power is still fifty 
years ahead.¹  Now that the price of oil is rising once again, I hope 
this will be only a slight exaggeration.² 

May many more books like The Search for Free Energy spring forth as the 
new energy age dawns.  For now, Keith Tutt¹s well written and carefully 
researched book could be a wake-up call to the still slumbering ³green² 
movement.  One hopes that Tutt¹s past work in television might make him 
an effective bridge to the environmental community, which has generally 
ignored free energy technology in favor of the here-and-now of 
conventional renewables. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 08:52:21 2001
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Subject: Brouhaha over 'Kyoto and the Internet' urban myth
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For the past year some absurd statements about energy use and computers 
have been circulating. One of them was quoted recently by the Secretary of 
Energy, which goes to show he is innumerate and nothing zip about energy. 
He is quoted in the Slate on-line magazine:

"Some experts calculate that the demands of the Internet already consume 
some 8-13 percent of electricity. If demand grows at just the same pace as 
during the last decade, we'll need nearly 1,900 new plants by 2020--or more 
than 90 every year--just to keep pace."

-- Energy secretary Spencer Abraham, in a March 19 speech to the U.S. 
Chamber of Commerce.

This demonstrates how high government officials and corporate decision 
makers can be so wrong about subjects ranging from cold fusion to 
electricity in California. Let us hope they are not equally ill informed 
about the intentions of the Chinese military commanders, who have been 
saying for years they expect to go to war with the U.S.

An important rebuttal to this nonsense has been published by Lawrence 
Berkeley. I recommend this paper. It is clear-headed, nuts-and-bolts view 
of everyday energy consumption. It is on line at:

http://www-library.lbl.gov/docs/LBNL/465/09/PDF/LBNL-46509.pdf

"Rebuttal to Testimony on 'Kyoto and the Internet: The Energy Implications 
of the Digital Economy,' " Jonathan G. Koomey, Lawrence Berkeley National 
Laboratory, prepared for the Energy department in August 2000.

Some quotes:

In the past year and a half, I have been witness to an extraordinary event: 
an analysis based on demonstrably incorrect data and flawed logic has 
achieved the status of conventional wisdom, in spite of my and my 
colleagues' best efforts to refute its assertions. The results continue to 
be cited by an unsuspecting press, and even by people who ought to know better

In May 1999, Mark P. Mills published a report for the Greening Earth 
Society (summarized in an article in Forbes magazine) that attempted to 
calculate the 'Internet related' portion of electricity use. This report 
claimed that electricity use associated with the Internet totaled about 8 
percent of all U.S. electricity use in 1998, that the entire 'digital 
economy' accounted for 13 percent, and that this sector would grow to 
consume half of all electricity in the next decade.....Mills significantly 
overestimated electricity use, in some cases by more than an order of 
magnitude....In June 2000, my colleagues and I completed our first 
comprehensive assessment of office equipment energy use since 1995 
(Kawamoto et. al. 2000). This report includes electricity used by network 
equipment, and estimates total energy used by office and network equipment 
for residential, commercial, and industrial sectors....Our detailed 
calculations show that electricity used for all office, telecommunications, 
and network equipment (including electricity used to manufacture the 
equipment) is about 3% of total electricity use in the U.S. . . .

. . . Mills leaps from erroneously high estimates of electricity used by 
data-processing equipment to broad conclusions about the need for more 
electricity and more coal, without assessing how the Internet may affect 
other uses of electricity. My colleagues and I correctly assessed the 
electricity used by data-processing equipment (and found it to be eight 
times smaller than Mills claimed); did not attempt the futile task of 
estimating what fraction of that usage is related to the Internet; and 
noted qualitatively that other Internet-related effects may dampen or 
reverse growth in electricity used for certain other purposes, making the 
net effect of Internet traffic growth and E-commerce on electricity demand 
indeterminate based on present evidence.

I responded to Mills' question in the way that I did because 1) I think the 
question of how much electricity the Internet uses is the wrong question 
(as described above) and 2) I had uncovered so many errors in the initial 
examination of Mills' analysis that I did not want to report my conclusions 
except relative to his results. Reporting an absolute number (like 1%) 
implies a greater level of precision than is justified when the analysis 
itself was so shaky. I was (and am) quite confident that Mills' analysis 
overestimates the electricity used by a certain segment of office equipment 
by at least a factor of eight. . . .


Notes:

The Greening Earth Society, it turns out, is a front organization for coal 
mining companies.

If Koomey knew anything about cold fusion and the confusion surrounding it, 
he would not be surprised that "demonstrably incorrect data and flawed 
logic has achieved the status of conventional wisdom."

The authors of the papers Koomey debunks apparently did not bother to read 
the power ratings on the back of equipment, much less use a power meter or 
a Radio Shack ammeter. Their estimates of power consumption by personal 
computers and other equipment are wrong by a factor of 4 to 25! If Internet 
communication cost as much energy as they estimate, it would be impossible 
to offer unlimited dial-up service for $20 per month.

As Koomey points out, overall electricity demand in the U.S. has been 
slowing down recently. It would be increasing if the Mills' thesis was correct.

I do not think the rebuttal notes that some computer equipment serves more 
than one purpose, sometimes inadvertently. For example, a computer monitor 
reduces the need for overhead lighting. Many people, including me, prefer 
to work in a somewhat dark room to avoid screen glare. Waste heat from 
office equipment adds to the burden of air conditioning in summer, but it 
reduces energy use in winter. Koomey correctly notes that new mainframe 
computers and LCD screens consume much less power than the older equipment 
they replace.

Neither Mills nor Koomey describes in detail how energy is saved with 
computers. Mills avoids the subject because he does not understand it, and 
because it proves he is wrong. Koomey avoids it because he knows the 
subject is too large and complex for a quantitative analysis. Let me 
mention just one example of energy savings you might not expect: rotting 
fruit. Grocery stores with advanced computerized cash register and 
distribution systems to keep track of how many grapes and apples every 
store has on hand. They send out just enough fruit from the warehouses to 
meet demand with minimum spoilage. This saves tremendous amounts of energy 
and labor, while reducing garbage.

Another description of the article is here:

http://www.networkmagazine.com/article/NMG20010103S0005

This article quotes another absurd figure: "[a] wireless Palm VII you swear 
by and put little batteries into? It eats up power like a refrigerator-up 
to 1,000 kilowatt hours a year (kWh/y)-when all the devices it connects to 
are taken into consideration." There are 8,760 hours per year, so this 
works out to be 114 watts consumption. The author must assume the Palm VII 
is on every minute of every day, taking up a cell-phone connection the 
whole time.

- Jed

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What is a Titmouse? 

Will it work on a PC?

FJS

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>What is a Titmouse?

It is a small insect-eating passerine bird of the family Paridae, genus 
Parus, found in woodland areas throughout the world.


>Will it work on a PC?

What kind of work do you have in mind? If it involves debugging (in the 
literal sense), or building a nest in an abandoned PC box, the answer is 
yes. We have a nest of some similar species in the outside wall of our 
house where an old electric meter was.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 10:39:55 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Universal Traslator
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John Berry wrote:

>I've heard that speech recognition programs can already be made better 
>than human
>recognition

Where did you hear this? It seems extremely unlikely to me. I do not think 
that computers will ever be as capable of understanding language as people, 
because so much speech is rooted in our biology, especially our primate 
social structure.


>, and translation software goes from great to awful depending on which one 
>. . .

All of the translation software output I have seen has been awful, 
including samples from large mainframe programs not available to the 
public. The CIA software is said to be "effective," but that does not imply 
it is as good as a human translator! That would require a gigantic leap 
forward in computer speed and software capabilities, probably by a factor 
of 1 to 100 million, according to recent article in Sci. Am. I do not think 
that the CIA or any other organization, public or private, could make such 
a leap in secret. Word of it would circulate through the high-tech 
community. It would be like someone making a fully capable, practical cold 
fusion powered machine. Years ago Hal Fox told me that he believed there 
were prototype cold fusion machines running fork lifts deep in the bowels 
of the Toyota company. I did not believe it then, and I still do not, for 
two reasons:

1. How could they could keep such a thing secret?

2. WHY would they keep it secret? It would be worth fabulous amounts of 
money instantly -- billions of dollars in annual sales added to their 
corporate earnings, and a huge jump in their stock value, at a time when 
nearly every Japanese corporation is hurting. So why wouldn't they start 
selling the things?

If Toyota or Blacklight Power is hiding working production prototype energy 
machines, they are doing an incredibly irresponsible disservice to their 
stockholders, and they are violating the most fundamental business 
practices. No sane capitalist would hide a product worth hundreds of 
billions of dollars. Conspiracy theories about suppressing energy 
breakthroughs founder on this simple fact. Powerful institutions like the 
DoE will jump to suppress an embryonic breakthrough like cold fusion. They 
can do that easily, since CF only exists in the test tube, and in the pages 
of obscure journal papers. But the DoE could not begin to stop it if there 
were already CF-powered prototype machines being demonstrated.

The CIA may be hiding Machine Translation software worth billions of 
dollars in the name of national security, but they are not a commercial 
enterprise. Plus they have a long history of doing idiotic things. 
Apparently it does not occur to them that the dissemination of such 
software would strengthen the U.S. more than it would help our rivals.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:34:42 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars
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>1, Electrolysis of  12 H2O ( 216 tons) to 12 H2  (24 tons) +  6 O2  (192 tons)
>
>At 25 Kw-hr /lb Hydrogen =  1.2E6 kw-hr/24 tons of Hydrogen and 192 tons
>of Oxygen
>
>2, 12 H2 (24 tons) +  4 Fe2O3 (640 tons) ---> 4 Fe (224 tons) + 12 H2O
>(216 tons)

***{It's a minor point, but the tonnages don't balance. The right side
needs 8Fe, not 4Fe. Assuming 1 ton per unit of molecular weight, that gives
448 tons of iron on the right side, and the numbers then match up.

A more important question is how to bring the hematite (Fe2O3) into the
necessary intimate contact with the H2. My first thought would be to melt
the hematite and force-draft the hydrogen through it--in other words, use a
Bessimer-type furnace that injects hydrogen instead of air. That should
work great on Mars, where there is no oxygen in the atmosphere to react
with the hydrogen.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>At $.01/kw-hr  = $12,000.00 for 224 tons of iron or about 3 kw-hr/ pound
>(aluminum reduction averages about 9 kw-hr/pound ) plus 192 tons of Oxygen.
>
>Doable with a fission reactor power plant

***{Yup, but are there commercial deposits of uranium on Mars? If there
are, then a Mars colony will become feasible as soon as the transportation
costs fall to within reach of significant numbers of would-be settlers.
Once that happens, the multitudes of oppressed people on our fascist planet
will begin to outfit space vessels for one-way trips to Mars, in much the
same way that the Pilgrims, Quakers, and other oppressed peoples once
outfitted seagoing vessels for one-way trips to the New World. The result
will be a stream of manned one-way missions, staffed by volunteers, with
each one carrying needed tools and resources, as determined by the
available information about Martian conditions before they left. Since
there will be a constant stream of radio communication relaying reports
back to Earth, the result will be an accumulation on Mars of the know-how
and tools necessary to set up a viable civilization there. And since the
pioneers who are willing to give up the comforts of life on Earth are going
to be, for the most part, people who are dissatisfied with the political
conditions here, the Mars colonists are likely to be as libertarian as the
original American colonists were. (My bags are already packed! :-) --MJ}***

, but it sounds like a boondoggle to me.

***{A government-funded Mars colony would be a boondoggle, but the day will
come when private missions will be undertaken, by persons seeking an escape
from the oppression here on Earth. The only thing that can stop it will be
a collapse of this civilization, induced by proliferating fascist controls,
before the technology necessary for privately funded space travel is
developed. If that happens, mankind is finished. --MJ}***

>Regards,     Frederick

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 10:53:16 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Something new?

Jed wrote:


> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >What is a Titmouse?
>
> It is a small insect-eating passerine bird of the family Paridae, genus
> Parus, found in woodland areas throughout the world.
>
>
> >Will it work on a PC?
>
> What kind of work do you have in mind? If it involves debugging (in the
> literal sense), or building a nest in an abandoned PC box, the answer is
> yes. We have a nest of some similar species in the outside wall of our
> house where an old electric meter was.

Thanks Jed.   I thought maybe it was a new type of mouse for making surfing the
internet more fun.

Regards  Frederick
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 10:53:25 2001
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:48:47 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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I am unaware that special plug ins are required, but will look into it.  I 
just use Internet Explorer.  What browser do you use and what version, ie, 
how old is it?

Ross Tessien


At 12:03 AM 4/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Matt,
>     I would check out your site, but it requires that I download
>something called 'flash 5' or something.  I have seen these
>sites before....download this or that.  Flash or RealAudio
>and the like lead to general sites where now you become
>a shopper and see hucksters instead of browsing.
>     Make a long story short, I bailed rather than go through
>a long series of huckster pages vainly seeking a free
>download of some program necessary to your page for
>some reason.  some of these downloads may be really
>bad for my computer's health.  I really do not need to take
>two hours out of my evening downloading a 5 megabyte
>plug-in that then tries to tell me that I need a license to use
>this and need to pay to see that.
>     Would you please make your page available for the
>general non sucker public to see.
>
>Standing Bear

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 10:54:03 2001
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:49:37 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: RE: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 06:27 PM 3/31/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Ron,
>         I would be interested in learning more. Have you done any work 
> with the
>metals themselfes, or only simulations?


We have done some work, but no simulations yet.  We need to do more work 
and some simulations........those are up next on the simulation wish list.

rt




>Matthew Rogers
>Accel Net Inc.
>Director of Operations
>PH 206-498-8636
>FX 425-844-8155
>www.accelnet.net
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Tessien [mailto:rtessien impulsedevices.com]
>Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:37 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
>
>Greetings Vo,
>
>I have been aware of some discussion about our company, and that it might
>seem that we don't deserve to be receiving funding based on just
>"theory".  So I thought I would give you a peak that looks behind the
>development curtains so you can see we really are doing some important
>work.  Also, I should point out that both the investors and their due
>diligence scientists get to learn far more about what we have documented
>and are doing than what I can disclose here.  Cavitation is far more
>exciting as a path to fusion than I am going to detail below, due to patent
>work that is still on going.  But, 33 US and international patents on file
>so far allow me to begin to share what we are working on.
>
>rt
>
>****************************************************************************
>I thought I would give you some updates on our progress at increasing the
>intensity of cavitational collapses to those of fusion levels.  We have
>initial US and international patents on file, and have presented a paper at
>the Quebec American Physical Society conference on plasma physics last
>Nov.  We have also presented the same paper at LANL and LBNL, and expect to
>at LLNL, and the up coming APS conference in DC and perhaps, in Kyoto in
>Sept.
>
>The paper is a simulation of one system on how to increase the intensity of
>cavitational collapses.  Frankly, it is surprising that other physicists
>haven't looked into these approaches, but so goes the slow advance of
>science.
>
>You all know about sonoluminescence.  Take ultrasonic drivers, attach to a
>chem lab boiling flask, drive a resonance and voila, a pulsing bubble
>creating multi eV plasma temperatures from a $2.99 apparatus.  That
>apparatus operates at atmospheric pressure, 14.7 psi, with a quarter bar
>driving pressure amplitude if they are lucky.
>
>We, at Impulse Devices, Inc., are driving cavitation and other processes at
>up to 20,000 psi.  It is so simple to say that if you increase the driving
>pressure amplitude by a factor of a thousand that you might be able to
>observe something a little more dramatic.........especially when you know
>that sonoluminescence, SL, is within a factor of 100 to 1000 of fusion
>already.  why NL scientists aren't all over this is a mystery to me.
>
>Second, if you plot the collapse dynamics reported by Moss at LLNL, you
>will observe that the acceleration of the collapsing bubble doesn't follow
>what you would expect to observe from an incompressible fluid.  The density
>of the innermost material is shooting upward, and from one of his papers,
>the peak conditions reached in various simulations are as high as
>   ~240 Mbar,  10 g/cc,  2.2 keV
>
>In our simulations, we replace the poorly performing water with superior
>performing molten metals and molten salts, such as LiD.  We replace the
>trivial quarter bar driving pressures with kbar amplitudes.  and we get
>different peak conditions predicted by these simulations:
>1 Gbar,   0.7 g/cc,   9 keV
>
>(Note:  Both Moss' and our simulations need to be improved, and the yields
>will decrease when we do.  However, both are vast improvements over the
>simulation results for SL systems.  IOW, it is certain that our devices
>represent a huge improvement over SL, but they still have a ways to go to
>get to fusion conditions in a real laboratory experiment......)
>
>At first glance this doesn't seem like a huge change or improvement.  But
>what you need to realize is that the high pressure system gets FAR more
>material up to these extreme conditions and also that the fusion yield
>scales like the 8th power of temperature, so a little improvement leads to
>a huge pay off in fusion yield.
>
>So that caviate pointed out, whereas Moss' simulation resulted in an
>expected fusion yield of one reaction in ten hours, our simulations
>resulted in 160 million reactions per collapse in a 100 kHz resonant system.
>
>Put another way, our simulation resulted in 576 million billion times the
>rate of fusion reactions one would expect to observe in Moss' best
>design........not bad for our ***FIRST*** selection of conditions to model,
>using a ****simple****  one of our many designs.
>
>We need to do better.  and we need to do so in improved simulation software
>/ hardware.  We know how to improve the systems far beyond the above
>capabilities but we don't have the funding to run those
>simulations.........one we are doing has been running for six months and is
>nearing completion in May????   When that simulation comes in we expect the
>peak conditions to be yet higher, the yields yet better, etc.  And we know
>what to do to improve that performance too.  We are just beginning to
>explore this huge parameter space.
>
>why aren't other scientists at the NL's looking into this yet?  Simple, it
>is a counter intuitive approach.  They can't imagine making something
>radically hot inside of something that appears to be "cold".  But, they
>concede that SL is already doing that in any laboratory that desires to
>conduct SL research.  They just contend that you can't do
>better...........man has never failed to improve any technology man desired
>and was financially motivated to improve, so, their contention is, well,
>wrong.
>
>Another reason they don't look into this field is because they know that
>the efficiency of a fusion burn is better if it is a larger burn, so, going
>toward the microscopic realm makes no sense.  Sure, you might get fusion to
>happen, but you won't build a power plant from a microscopic, trivial
>amount of fusion reactions....................or so they think.
>
>What they fail to recognize is that cavitation takes advantage of
>resonance, and so the amount of energy you must provide on each cycle is a
>small fraction of the amount that would be required to achieve the same
>intensity of resonance by supplying the energy in a single pulse.  This is
>like knowing that a kid on a swing, once swinging really high could use
>it's KE to smack something really hard at the bottom of the swinging
>motion, whereas after one small push the child wouldn't be able to do much
>damage by kicking anything.
>
>Cavitation is like that, you increase the intensity of resonance and as it
>builds up, the violence of the collapse increases and you can drive the
>peak plasma conditions to higher and higher values.  Metals are superior
>for doing this than is water.  when metals melt, their properties are
>fantastic for driving violent microscopic collapses.
>
>Frankly, I think that cold fusion is a bogus notion, and that cold fusion
>advocates should take a look at this opinion.  Instead, I think that cold
>fusion devices may inadvertently be driving violent cavitational implosions
>inside of their electrodes etc.  And that those processes may be driving
>nuclear reactions other than classical fusion.  There are many, as you all
>know, such as neutron stripping, alpha spallation, and a host of other a
>neutronic processes that might account for what is believed to have been
>observed in CF experiments.  I have always thought that the micro cavities
>under the metal surfaces, and the little volcanic vents observed blasting
>out of the surfaces, such as documented by Stringham and others, are the
>result of a resonant cavitational collapse process taking place just under
>the surface of the electrodes or other materials.  Even Black light and gas
>phase devices often have a cyclic power source if you look deeper into
>their machines to find that the power comes from an RF source, capable of
>exciting acoustic resonances that others overlook.
>
>But be that as it may, the CF industry has headed down a path of locked
>horns with the establishment scientists, and that path has huge barriers to
>progress.
>
>At IDI, we are not advocating any controversial science.  We recognize that
>cavitation is a tremendously valuable, powerful, robust, amazing
>process.  We are exploring how to better take advantage of it's abilities
>by providing the materials that naturally cavitate with more power to do so
>more violently.  And we are providing the systems with nuclear fusion fuel,
>deuterium, to burn in the event we get the collapses up to be sufficiently
>violent.
>
>I expect that cavitation will succeed at driving fusion because it is
>close, and because there is so much room to increase the intensity.  I mean
>think about it, all of the data you have read concerning SL is always at
>atmospheric pressure, this is a horrible use of engineering talent to have
>failed to take advantage of increasing the pressure responsible for driving
>the collapses.
>
>In our laboratory, we have now observed some never before seen phenomena
>taking place at high pressures.  The light emissions have excess UV, a good
>indicator that things are getting hotter.  And we are observing large
>amounts of light emission, the most Dr. Gaitan has ever observed in ten
>years of SL research.
>
>So, is IDI just howling at the moon?  or is IDI simply taking advantage of
>the fact that none of the physicists have to date noticed that the liquids
>they have been using to study SL are poor ones for driving intense
>cavitational processes?  My contention is that they have been blinded by
>the light, meaning, they are studying SL and it's light emissions using
>transparent liquids at ambient pressure, whereas the real game is out there
>in more rigid, liquid metals, being driven with extreme pressures.
>
>Time will tell, and now and then I will keep you up to date with
>progress.  but, I would appreciate it if all of your discussion makes it
>clear that IDI is working on HOT fusion (between us I do hope some other
>a-neutronic processes are conquered......but I can't advocate that today
>because it would drop me into the CF camp and that would be the kiss of
>death for funding)
>
>rt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:07:40 2001
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No kidding. See:

http://www.intel.com/Cure/

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42790,00.html

I wish we could do something like this with CF, but alas, the experiments 
are all hands-on chemistry, not computer simulations.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:12:50 2001
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Subject: Re: Something new?
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Thanks Jed.   I thought maybe it was a new type of mouse for making 
>surfing the
>internet more fun.

It probably is, but I thought you could use a wise-ass response.

Here is Something New from the Netherlands: a water-based Internet network:

http://www.redherring.com/index.asp?layout=story&channel=60000006&doc_id=1570018357

Quotes:


The Dutch, more than most, understand the perils of water. Nearly 50 
percent of their country is below sea level, and without its labyrinth of 
dikes and drainage systems much of the Netherlands would disappear into the 
unforgiving North Sea. The Dutch also understand the power of water. The 
Netherlands' ability to control encroaching bodies of water elevated the 
country to global maritime dominance in the 17th century. Now, one Dutch 
startup hopes to exploit that same liquid asset to bring the Netherlands 
into a new golden age.

This time around, Dutch entrepreneurs aren't reclaiming land or diverting 
rivers. Instead, they believe that they can use existing infrastructure and 
a highly proprietary data-compression technique to deliver Internet traffic 
through the one remaining "network" that communications providers have yet 
to utilize -- water pipes. . . .


Will wonders never cease?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:26:57 2001
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 06:29 PM 4/1/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>
>>In our simulations, we replace the poorly performing water with superior 
>>performing molten metals and molten salts, such as LiD.
>
>Hi Ross,
>
>This is very interesting. Do you actually anticipate using LiD as a 
>working medium at some future date?

Yes, but in ways that would not be obvious and which I cannot go into 
yet.  LiD is not the only path of course.  We also anticipate using just DD 
or DT, such as was envisioned by Flynn in earlier patent.



>>Frankly, I think that cold fusion is a bogus notion, and that cold fusion 
>>advocates should take a look at this opinion.  Instead, I think that cold 
>>fusion devices may inadvertently be driving violent cavitational 
>>implosions inside of their electrodes etc.
>
>Can't you see why this statement borders on being self-contradictory? If 
>cold fusion is bogus and its mechanism is cavitation, then isn't 
>cavitation also bogus... or are you saying instead, that if cold fusion is 
>real then cavitation must be its modus operandi? But if cavitation, as you 
>suggest, is a subset of classical fusion and cold fusion is not classical 
>fusion, then the two cannot be related... or am I missing something in 
>exactly how you feel these fields are related?
>
>When your basic tool is a hammer, I suppose, the tendency is to look for 
>the nails in every problem. But what steps have you taken to eliminate the 
>possibility that cavitation itself is not classical fusion, but is instead 
>a hydrino (or partly hydrino) process, or some other LENR not yet fully 
>described?


The point is, "Cold" fusion may well not be cold at all.  Many people 
already think this, ie, Roger Stringham for example, and I for example.  I 
am not saying that I think "cold fusion experiments" aren't doing anything 
interesting, or nuclear.  I am saying that "Assuming that cold fusion 
experiments are driving nuclear reactions, the term, "cold" is incorrect, 
and that there are HOT mechanisms going on."   Neither am I saying that I 
contend that CF must be classical hot fusion.  There are hundreds of 
different kinds of nuclear reactions beyond simple DD / DT fusion 
reactions.  Many of those do not produce neutrons or tritium.  So all I am 
saying on this issue is that I do not believe in the concepts of a lattice 
bringing two nuclei into contact just because it is heavily loaded with D.

The fact is, even at a one to one D to Pd ratio, the distance between 
deuterons is only cut in half at best.  This means, the nuclei are 5,000 
nuclear radii apart instead of 10,000 nuclear radii.........they are still 
WAY FAR apart.

LENR is another incorrect concept IMO.  there is NOTHING low energy about 
cavitation and various lattice resonant processes.  Nuclei could 
conceivably be caused to slam into one another at extremely large 
energies...........and do some nuclear reaction dance............and be 
totally acceptable to main stream science and common 
sense..........AND...........be consistent with observations of CF 
experiments.  In other words, I would contend that CF scientists have been 
too blinded by the bad press and controversy, and have fought to defend an 
incorrect idea, when they should be fighting to defend a potentially GOOD 
experiment.





>>Even Black light and gas phase devices often have a cyclic power source 
>>if you look deeper into their machines to find that the power comes from 
>>an RF source, capable of exciting acoustic resonances that others overlook.
>
>This would be news to Mills, but there is likely to be some truth to your 
>observation unrelated to ultrasound, ie. Mills looks only at the electron 
>(orbitsphere) when he should also perhaps consider nuclear changes, 
>possibly those initiated by NMR effects.

It isn't news to Mills in the sense that their power sources are RF 
generated.  What would be news to Mills is that he might inadvertently be 
setting up resonances in his metal components.

As for hydrinos, personally it sounds like a really interesting and 
plausible notion that they could exist.  However, it seems to me that they 
are closer to a neutron, and further from a proton, and so when you 
consider the mass energy, I would expect a hydrino to be ENDOTHERMIC rather 
than what Mill's claims.  His EUV, I would expect, is happening when a 
hydrino (assuming they exist at all) decays back to hydrogen, the ground state.

You have to ask yourselves, "Gee, if Mill's has hydrinos, knows how to make 
them in abundance, and has received $25 million or so to build a power 
device of any size, why don't we see his power generator?"

If Mill's doesn't have a commercially viable product by now, he is likely 
going to go bankrupt.  Industry and investors won't tolerate putting money 
in without the net worth of the company going up, and it is next to 
impossible to get people to put good money into a bad project.




>>  The light emissions have excess UV, a good indicator that things are 
>> getting hotter.
>
>Or conversely, an indicator that your are dealing with hydrino related 
>phenomena. Have you done spectroscopy? Can you tell us the dominant high 
>uv frequency peaks you are getting? Are you seeing any gammas?

No gammas yet, and other details will take time and more funding.




> > At IDI, we are not advocating any controversial science.  We recognize
> > that cavitation is a tremendously valuable, powerful, robust, amazing
> > process.  We are exploring how to better take advantage of it's
> > abilities by providing the materials that naturally cavitate with more
> > power to do so more violently.
>
>This may be a successful strategy up until that point that you realize 
>that what you are dealing with is really not classical fusion at all. 
>Then, because you have tailored you entire research strategy around 
>"fitting into the mainstream," what happens when you can no longer keep up 
>the facade? Will you have the courage to say, at the expense of loosing 
>funding, that something new and exciting is going on outside of classical 
>fusion?

Sure.  There are all sorts of reactions that are not fusion, and which ARE, 
mainstream.  CF overlooks this.  Neutron stripping is one such phenomena 
that IE has already run articles on.  Frankly, I think that is one of the 
things going on in CF experiments.........again, not a cold process, but 
definitely something other than classical fusion.



>>So, is IDI just howling at the moon?  or is IDI simply taking advantage 
>>of the fact that none of the physicists have to date noticed that the 
>>liquids they have been using to study SL are poor ones for driving 
>>intense cavitational processes?  My contention is that they have been 
>>blinded by the light, meaning, they are studying SL and it's light 
>>emissions using transparent liquids at ambient pressure, whereas the real 
>>game is out there in more rigid, liquid metals, being driven with extreme 
>>pressures.
>
>This sounds extremely interesting and exciting and the above comments are 
>not intended to appear critical to your efforts - only to point out that a 
>few of your secondary conclusions may not be as carefully considered as 
>you main focus.

Perhaps.  Perhaps all of the years of nuclear physics is 
incorrect.  Perhaps some miraculous new cold process is taking 
place.  Perhaps it is a low energy nuclear process........perhaps.  But I 
don't think so.

Ask yourself this:

"The CF advocates have run experiments, produced tritium, helium, 
etc.  They look at their devices and say, "gee, it is cold by comparison to 
a nuclear process, so, whatever is happening must be cold".  And yet these 
same advocates contend that main stream scientists are incorrect, but they 
are un willing to investigate that THEY, might be the ones that are 
incorrect.  Not in their observations, but rather, in their appraisal of 
them.  It is far more fun to be oppressed and doing the valiant job of 
persevering, rather than to contend, "maybe we made a mistake and there 
really are hot processes going on in our devices that we overlooked because 
they were microscopic""

If you couldn't see the light coming out of sonoluminescence devices, no 
one would believe that a hot plasma could be forming inside due to a little 
acoustic energy either.  But, we know this is happening.  Today, in the CF 
arena, no one believes that hot nuclear reactive conditions could be 
created in their simple, seemingly cold, devices.

I think that the main stream scientists should take a second look at the CF 
experiments.
And I think that the CF experimenters should take a second look at their 
notion that they are doing anything nuclear that is cold.






>>Time will tell, and now and then I will keep you up to date with 
>>progress.  but, I would appreciate it if all of your discussion makes it 
>>clear that IDI is working on HOT fusion (between us I do hope some other 
>>a-neutronic processes are conquered......but I can't advocate that today 
>>because it would drop me into the CF camp and that would be the kiss of 
>>death for funding)
>
>I don't think many observers on this forum really believe that you are 
>working on hot fusion at all, at least not as it has been taught for the 
>last half century. And although everyone needs funding, at some point your 
>real convictions will have to find their own level of comfort in that 
>funding struggle.

The problem with this statement is, scientists have fired numerous 
experiments that succeed at driving classical hot fusion reactions.  They 
have done so using lasers that operate by smashing a target that is layered 
with metals and filled with DT gas.  Their work succeeds at producing the 
fusion reaction products we expect, and so they are indeed doing 
fusion.  And, what we are doing with cavitation is nothing more complicated 
than a new machine to drive the identical collapses in the identical fuels 
as have been studied for decades.

So, if anyone on this forum fails to believe that fusion is a real process, 
then those people need to go study particle accelerator collisions, laser 
firing data, and the plethora of experiments all of which produce hot 
fusion reactions, and many of which are substantially identical to the 
processes we are driving at IDI.

rt

]

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:27:23 2001
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Subject: Re: Brouhaha over 'Kyoto and the Internet' urban myth
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These statements by Mark P. Mills in Congressional Testimony are astounding:

"The first technical point: In the LBL paper, the authors take issue with 
the claim that the desktop for an Internet-configured PC (i.e.., including 
necessary peripherals) is about a 1,000 watt device. Setting aside the 
question of whether it is 1,000 Watts (it is), the LBL researchers know 
full well that the relevant number used in the calculation is NOT the peak 
watts, but the quantity of kilowatt-hours used in a year. In analogous 
terms, what really matters is how much gasoline you use in a year, not the 
horsepower of your engine."

Mills is an energy corporation lobbyist, yet he has never bothered to look 
at the power rating on the back of a computer! Or he thinks his audience is 
so gullible they will not look. Plus he seems to be saying that average 
consumption is larger than peak power consumption. I suspect that people 
like Mills are in charge of energy policy at the power companies in 
California, and they write energy laws in Congress.

This tit-for-tat argument between Mills and Koomey reads like the Internet 
CF debates. On one side is an expert who knows what he is talking about. On 
the other is a blowhard who makes up facts as he goes along and then quotes 
the press which quoted him! He waves his hand and says "everyone knows" 
this or that, without evidence.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:35:47 2001
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:15:28 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>Going by the abundance of Red Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) on Mars, if the
>unoxidized iron was molten (> 1828 deg K)in the planet's early stages,
>it's reaction with water:
>
>2 Fe + 3 H2O <---> Fe2O3 + 6 H
>
>would allow the hydrogen (H atoms) to exceed the Mars escape
>velocity of 5.1E3 meters/second:
>
>1/2mv^2/k = T
>
>where T is the Mars escape temperature for hydrogen atoms (1564 deg K)
>and k is the Boltzman constant 1.38E-23 joule/deg K.
>
>Not much chance for photosynthesis: CO2 + H2O + light ---> CH2O + O2
>>without water.

***{A hydrogen atom may exceed escape velocity, but water on Mars would
have to find its way into the atmosphere and be dissociated into hydrogen
and oxygen, in order for all or most of the water on Mars to be lost in
this way. However, the conditions render such a scenario unlikely:

(1) UV levels are greatly attenuated on Mars to begin with, due to its
distance from the sun.

(2) Most of the water on Mars is guaranteed to either be frozen or bound in
geological formations in the form of hydrates, and hence will not be
available to be broken down by UV in the atmosphere.

(3) Even if there are significant atmospheric losses of water, it is
entirely possible that the supply of new water being brought in by small
comets exceeds the atmospheric losses. (I read several articles a few years
ago discussing the hypothesis that the Earth is being continuously
bombarded by "micro-comets," and as I recall there was considerable
evidence supporting that idea, including photographs. I don't know how that
debate turned out, but the idea seems very plausible to me.)

Bottom line: I think it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that there is
lots of water on Mars.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Regards,    Frederick

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:57:25 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 11:15 AM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:

>The point is, "Cold" fusion may well not be cold at all.  Many people
>already think this, ie, Roger Stringham for example, and I for example.  I
>am not saying that I think "cold fusion experiments" aren't doing anything
>interesting, or nuclear.


This is clearly false.  If not, there would exist the dead lab assistant
syndrome.  There are not the corresponding neutrons from CF.  The branching
ratios for CF are wildly different.  This is the scientifically interesting
and potentially most practical aspect of CF.   It is true that there may be
mixed regimes in which the braching ratios make transitions, but the
difference in the regimes tested and published to date are like night and
day.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:51:36 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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Ross Tessien wrote:

Today, in the CF
>arena, no one believes that hot nuclear reactive conditions could be
>created in their simple, seemingly cold, devices.

***{That is a glaringly incorrect statement. The notion of "cold fusion"
arose in the context of the Pons-Fleischmann experiment, where it was
thought that fusion was taking place in a table-top electrochemical cell.
That cell was "cold" in the sense that its average temperature was vastly
less than that inside a thermonuclear explosion. However, nothing in that
concept precluded microscopic hot spots that were far above the average
temperature in the cell, and most investigators--e.g., Ed Storms, Mizuno,
etc.--seem open to the possibility that such hot spots exist. In fact, I
doubt that there is a single investigator in the CF arena who denies such a
possibility. --MJ}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
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>
>>Frankly, I think that cold fusion is a bogus notion, and that cold fusion 
>>advocates should take a look at this opinion.  Instead, I think that cold 
>>fusion devices may inadvertently be driving violent cavitational 
>>implosions inside of their electrodes etc.
>
>Can't you see why this statement borders on being self-contradictory? If 
>cold fusion is bogus and its mechanism is cavitation, then isn't 
>cavitation also bogus... or are you saying instead, that if cold fusion is 
>real then cavitation must be its modus operandi? But if cavitation, as you 
>suggest, is a subset of classical fusion and cold fusion is not classical 
>fusion, then the two cannot be related... or am I missing something in 
>exactly how you feel these fields are related?

I am not saying that cavitation fusion is a sub set of classical HOT fusion 
at all.  I am saying that cavitation is a process that takes place in a new 
kind of machine, to produce the identical hot fusion reactions that are 
known to proceed in other inertial confinement approaches such as laser ICF 
or such as in the Magnetic Target Fusion, etc.  Cavitation is nothing but a 
new mechanism for doing the identical process of heating a plasma via an 
inertial confinement process.

I am not saying, what "cold fusion" is.  But I am saying that if "cold 
fusion" experiments have nuclear reactions taking place, then, the nuclei 
are colliding into each other at extremely large velocities............ie, 
they are HOT relative to each other.  And yes, fusion is one nuclear 
process that could be driven, but neutron stripping, alpha spallation, and 
others could be taking place instead of DD or DT fusion.

So no, the statement isn't remotely close to being contradictory.  All 
"Hot" really means, is that the nuclei that will react are moving at large 
velocities relative to one another, and they collide energetically.  How 
you get them to do this is just the machine you use.  You can fuse, or 
drive other nuclear reactions in a particle beam, a cyclotron, a laser ICF, 
a gravitationally bound system aka star, a hot magnetically confined 
plasma, etc.  They type of nuclear reaction you get depends on the 
energies, and the kinds of nuclear species you use.

I am not saying that at IDI we are trying to drive the same reactions as in 
CF devices, though, I hope that some day we can.  CF doesn't produce 
neutrons or gammas, and so if I could figure out what nuclear process is 
being driven, then I could construct a device potentially to take advantage 
of such a process.  But, because I don't know what reactions are taking 
place in CF devices, and because I do know that fusion is a real process 
that requires DD or DT fuels, I do know at least one path to producing 
energy...........fusion.  And I know others too, but we will begin with the 
easiest to drive first and advance to others later on.

rt




>When your basic tool is a hammer, I suppose, the tendency is to look for 
>the nails in every problem. But what steps have you taken to eliminate the 
>possibility that cavitation itself is not classical fusion, but is instead 
>a hydrino (or partly hydrino) process, or some other LENR not yet fully 
>described?

Not quite.  I would say, "When I look at the forensics of numerous CF 
experiments ranging from PF to Stringham, and I learn that virtually 
everyone sees nail holes in the form of millions of little volcanos and 
tiny cavities inside the metal lattice, that then I tend to think that the 
holes were created by the hammer and nail.  I know the hammer 
exists.........ultrasonic energy.  I know the nails 
exist.........cavitation.  And I know that nail holes exist............the 
cavities in liquids and in the solid metals.  So yes, it does appear to me 
that this is what is going on.  But this has to do with looking at the 
evidence that is available, and not with trying to fit a hammer to everything.

rt




NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 12:18:43 2001
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:11:28 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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You completely missed the point.

Not only might it not be COLD, it might not be FUSION.

CF advocates claim that observation of He4 demands that DD fused to produce 
it.  This is not the case.

If you take one deuteron, split it, bind the neutron to the Pd, and the Pd 
undergoes an alpha spallation, then you observe the He4, you don't observe 
neutrons or gammas, you should observe transmutations of the Pd 
*********which you do********** and in the end, the steps to the final 
product confused the researcher into thinking that a new and cold method of 
fusing dueterium was found when in reality, you had an energetic collision 
that led to this multi step process.

My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions, 
AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.

Hence, the NAME..............."COLD FUSION".............must be incorrect 
on TWO points, it isn't cold, and it isn't fusion.

You would agree that it isn't fusion and that it must be something else.  I 
also agree.

All I am saying, is that you ought to consider that it isn't COLD 
either...........

When you do, there are a plethora of other nuclear processes at your hand 
to consider, which can give you what is being observed...............no 
nuetrons (well, few), some tritium, but the wrong amount as far as the 
branching ratio, etc etc.  Remember, lot's of observation of transmutations 
HAVE been observed.

;-)

rt


At 10:37 AM 4/3/01 -0900, you wrote:
>At 11:15 AM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
> >The point is, "Cold" fusion may well not be cold at all.  Many people
> >already think this, ie, Roger Stringham for example, and I for example.  I
> >am not saying that I think "cold fusion experiments" aren't doing anything
> >interesting, or nuclear.
>
>
>This is clearly false.  If not, there would exist the dead lab assistant
>syndrome.  There are not the corresponding neutrons from CF.  The branching
>ratios for CF are wildly different.  This is the scientifically interesting
>and potentially most practical aspect of CF.   It is true that there may be
>mixed regimes in which the braching ratios make transitions, but the
>difference in the regimes tested and published to date are like night and
>day.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 12:41:45 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 12:11 PM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:

>My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions,
>AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.

This simply can not be true.  In terms of nuclear reactions, nothing "hot"
is going on.  There are also gammas and x-rays associated with "hot"
reactons, including the suggested fissions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Dear Ross,
I would like to add my two cents  to Horace's excellent comment.
First of all, the use of the word "cold" in cold fusion has no meaning with
respect to temperature.  It is only a simple-minded way to designate the
field.  Obviously, local, focused energy is involved.  Second, overwhelming
evidence exists showing that nuclear reactions are being initiated.  I suggest
you read some of the studies referenced on my web site at
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  If you want to believe that
nuclear reactions are not involved, you will have to show why these many
observations are false and how so much energy can be generated by other
means.  On the other hand, you can just make the bold statement and look like
a fool (no offense).

Regards,
Ed

Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:15 AM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
> >The point is, "Cold" fusion may well not be cold at all.  Many people
> >already think this, ie, Roger Stringham for example, and I for example.  I
> >am not saying that I think "cold fusion experiments" aren't doing anything
> >interesting, or nuclear.
>
> This is clearly false.  If not, there would exist the dead lab assistant
> syndrome.  There are not the corresponding neutrons from CF.  The branching
> ratios for CF are wildly different.  This is the scientifically interesting
> and potentially most practical aspect of CF.   It is true that there may be
> mixed regimes in which the braching ratios make transitions, but the
> difference in the regimes tested and published to date are like night and
> day.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 14:11:09 2001
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I found some good info on the small comet theory at
http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/. According to this site, the small
comet frequency is equivalent to a global rainfall of 1 inch every 20,000
years. Since the area of a sphere is 4¼R^2 and the radius of Mars is 3397.5
km, it follows that the surface area of Mars is 1.45x10^8 km^2. Assuming a
1 inch (2.54 cm) accumulation every 20,000 years, it follows that
(1.45x10^8)(10^6)(100^2)(2.54) = 3.68x10^18 gms, or 9.77x10^14 gallons of
H2O are added to the Martian atmosphere from space every 20,000 years.
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 14:28:13 2001
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:14:38 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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OK, I stand corrected, ........."no one" was a strong statement and 
incorrect.

My point is that if one advocates that things are cold, then they are 
advocating that they are not hot.  And I contend that there are microscopic 
hot spots.  And as you point out, many others also believe this could be 
the case.  It is also the case that rather than gammas and the like, the 
lattice could carry the energy away, especially if you have microscopic 
cavities that are oscillating as we know they can in sonoluminescence 
experiments.

rt

At 01:51 PM 4/3/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>Today, in the CF
> >arena, no one believes that hot nuclear reactive conditions could be
> >created in their simple, seemingly cold, devices.
>
>***{That is a glaringly incorrect statement. The notion of "cold fusion"
>arose in the context of the Pons-Fleischmann experiment, where it was
>thought that fusion was taking place in a table-top electrochemical cell.
>That cell was "cold" in the sense that its average temperature was vastly
>less than that inside a thermonuclear explosion. However, nothing in that
>concept precluded microscopic hot spots that were far above the average
>temperature in the cell, and most investigators--e.g., Ed Storms, Mizuno,
>etc.--seem open to the possibility that such hot spots exist. In fact, I
>doubt that there is a single investigator in the CF arena who denies such a
>possibility. --MJ}***
>
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
>protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
>opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 14:30:46 2001
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:16:11 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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Not all hot reactions.  That a reaction is hot, does not necessarily demand 
that gammas be emitted.  Correct, there can be.  But there are other paths.

rt

At 11:38 AM 4/3/01 -0900, you wrote:
>At 12:11 PM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
> >My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions,
> >AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.
>
>This simply can not be true.  In terms of nuclear reactions, nothing "hot"
>is going on.  There are also gammas and x-rays associated with "hot"
>reactons, including the suggested fissions.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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Ross Tessien wrote:

> You completely missed the point.

No, you have missed the point, Ross

>
>
> Not only might it not be COLD, it might not be FUSION.

>
>
> CF advocates claim that observation of He4 demands that DD fused to produce
> it.  This is not the case.
>
> If you take one deuteron, split it, bind the neutron to the Pd, and the Pd
> undergoes an alpha spallation, then you observe the He4, you don't observe
> neutrons or gammas, you should observe transmutations of the Pd
> *********which you do********** and in the end, the steps to the final
> product confused the researcher into thinking that a new and cold method of
> fusing dueterium was found when in reality, you had an energetic collision
> that led to this multi step process.

This kind of reaction has been considered and found to be hard to justify.
First of all, the process occurs in the complete absence of Pd or any element
that can be made into an alpha emitter.  Second, the amount of energy/event does
not correspond to the energy produced by your proposed reaction.

>
>
> My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions,
> AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.
>
> Hence, the NAME..............."COLD FUSION".............must be incorrect
> on TWO points, it isn't cold, and it isn't fusion.

You assume that for the Coulomb barrier to be overcome, the two nuclei must hit
each other at high energy, similar to the situation in "hot" fusion.  Various
models have been proposed to show why this process is not necessary.  The
Coulomb can be neutralized by screening, it can be breached by deuterons
converted to waves, and it can be overcome by conversion of a d to a dineutron.
These are only three methods that do not require abnormal energy.

>
>
> You would agree that it isn't fusion and that it must be something else.  I
> also agree.
>
> All I am saying, is that you ought to consider that it isn't COLD
> either...........
>
> When you do, there are a plethora of other nuclear processes at your hand
> to consider, which can give you what is being observed...............no
> nuetrons (well, few), some tritium, but the wrong amount as far as the
> branching ratio, etc etc.  Remember, lot's of observation of transmutations
> HAVE been observed.

The conventional branching ratio does not apply when these other processes are
occurring.  In addition, transmutation appears to need the presence of H or D.
Hence these nuclei appear to be converted to something that can pass,
unhindered, through any coulomb barrier including other D or H.  I suggest you
read some models that have been proposed and justified rather than fixing on
your own model.

Regards,
Ed

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CF...hidden?!  Urban legend akin to alligators in the sewer
and snipe hunts in the south of the United States?!  Maybe
they might have a pecuniary reason to hide such a discovery.
The reason might be closer and meaner than you think.
    Picture the CF process.  You can according to some accounts
do it on a table top.  You might need a computer with a sophisticated
program to control it and make it productive, however.    If YOU
can do CF on a tabletop easily, then how many ten year old
hackers could do the same?  Maybe CF on a tabletop is really
DF  (dumb failure) without this program.  See, it they admit it now,
they would also possibly have to publish the existance of the
controlling program and ancillary apparatus.  Until the world
approves software patents, this invention could be up for grabs.
Even with software patents the invention would be up for grabs
by any country independant of the rest of the world enough to
grab for its golden ring.  No large country is going to go without
for long without this device and the energy independance that
it would portend.  It would be in for more inroads than Sutters
Fort in California in the 1850's.

Standing Bear
                                 M =m{  (da/dt) + (d^2a/dt^2) +.......(d^n /
dt^n) }
            momentum as a series of incrementally higher derivatives
             of and including onset of acceleration

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 14:58:53 2001
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010403120550.00ca55c0 impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:19:41 -0400
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Hi Ross,
Nice to have you back on vortex reporting on progress by
your company. Are you still planning a book about your astrophysics/
ether theories?

Ross Tessien wrote:
> My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions, 
> AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.
> 
> Hence, the NAME..............."COLD FUSION".............must be incorrect 
> on TWO points, it isn't cold, and it isn't fusion.
-
We all process the experimental data through our own filter formed
by our previous observations, interpretations, and theories. When you
talk about Stringham's work as quite possibly being related to your own
company's work and involving relatively "hot" conditions, I can see
your point. Still, Stringham does not find significant gammas or neutrons.
To apply your filter and conclude that all of the LENR and Mills experiments
must be explained in these terms is not reasonable from my perspective.
Something else is going on, it may or may not be direct fusion, but it
certainly is a relatively low energy process.
Regards,
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805


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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
>
> >I've heard that speech recognition programs can already be made better
> >than human
> >recognition
>
> Where did you hear this? It seems extremely unlikely to me. I do not think
> that computers will ever be as capable of understanding language as people,

It was on some news webpage, couldn't find it now if I tried.

>
> because so much speech is rooted in our biology, especially our primate
> social structure.
>
> >, and translation software goes from great to awful depending on which one
> >. . .
>
> All of the translation software output I have seen has been awful,
> including samples from large mainframe programs not available to the
> public. The CIA software is said to be "effective," but that does not imply
> it is as good as a human translator!

Not as good, but it's all right, it is the speech recognition that was better than human,
translation has a way to go, but even Babel fish can often do a decent job that is
understandable.

> That would require a gigantic leap
> forward in computer speed and software capabilities, probably by a factor
> of 1 to 100 million,

The ability to translate would require more power than is currently available?
I doubt that, some programs are rather close, it seems they only need a bit of
improvement.
However the hardest part is the translation, the other two are easy.

> according to recent article in Sci. Am. I do not think
> that the CIA or any other organization, public or private, could make such
> a leap in secret. Word of it would circulate through the high-tech
> community. It would be like someone making a fully capable, practical cold
> fusion powered machine. Years ago Hal Fox told me that he believed there
> were prototype cold fusion machines running fork lifts deep in the bowels
> of the Toyota company. I did not believe it then, and I still do not, for
> two reasons:
>
> 1. How could they could keep such a thing secret?
>
> 2. WHY would they keep it secret? It would be worth fabulous amounts of
> money instantly -- billions of dollars in annual sales added to their
> corporate earnings, and a huge jump in their stock value, at a time when
> nearly every Japanese corporation is hurting. So why wouldn't they start
> selling the things?
>
> If Toyota or Blacklight Power is hiding working production prototype energy
> machines, they are doing an incredibly irresponsible disservice to their
> stockholders, and they are violating the most fundamental business
> practices. No sane capitalist would hide a product worth hundreds of
> billions of dollars. Conspiracy theories about suppressing energy
> breakthroughs founder on this simple fact. Powerful institutions like the
> DoE will jump to suppress an embryonic breakthrough like cold fusion. They
> can do that easily, since CF only exists in the test tube, and in the pages
> of obscure journal papers. But the DoE could not begin to stop it if there
> were already CF-powered prototype machines being demonstrated.
>
> The CIA may be hiding Machine Translation software worth billions of
> dollars in the name of national security, but they are not a commercial
> enterprise. Plus they have a long history of doing idiotic things.
> Apparently it does not occur to them that the dissemination of such
> software would strengthen the U.S. more than it would help our rivals.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 16:00:25 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:47:18 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Frederick J. Sparber wrote:


> >Going by the abundance of Red Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) on Mars, if the
> >unoxidized iron was molten (> 1828 deg K)in the planet's early stages,
> >it's reaction with water:
> >
> >2 Fe + 3 H2O <---> Fe2O3 + 6 H
> >
> >would allow the hydrogen (H atoms) to exceed the Mars escape
> >velocity of 5.1E3 meters/second:
> >
> >1/2mv^2/k = T
> >
> >where T is the Mars escape temperature for hydrogen atoms (1564 deg K)
> >and k is the Boltzman constant 1.38E-23 joule/deg K.
> >
> >Not much chance for photosynthesis: CO2 + H2O + light ---> CH2O + O2
> >>without water.
>
> ***{A hydrogen atom may exceed escape velocity, but water on Mars would
> have to find its way into the atmosphere and be dissociated into hydrogen
> and oxygen, in order for all or most of the water on Mars to be lost in
> this way. However, the conditions render such a scenario unlikely:
>
> (1) UV levels are greatly attenuated on Mars to begin with, due to its
> distance from the sun.

Not so. The Solar Insolation is ~ 44% of the 1.36 kw/meter^2 on the Earth (600
watts/meter^2) with intense 200 - 300 nanometer UV capable of dissociating
H2O i.e., greater than 4.88 ev reaching the surface.
>
> (2) Most of the water on Mars is guaranteed to either be frozen or bound in
> geological formations in the form of hydrates, and hence will not be
> available to be broken down by UV in the atmosphere.

Right. But dissocation of ice crystals to atomic hydrogen
and oxygen is still possible, but I think that molten elemental iron that spewed from
volcanos is what is sequestered the oxygen.

Those dark "dunes" that has a lot of folks excited, could be black iron oxide Fe3O4
(Magnetite).

>
> (3) Even if there are significant atmospheric losses of water, it is
> entirely possible that the supply of new water being brought in by small
> comets exceeds the atmospheric losses. (I read several articles a few years
> ago discussing the hypothesis that the Earth is being continuously
> bombarded by "micro-comets," and as I recall there was considerable
> evidence supporting that idea, including photographs. I don't know how that
> debate turned out, but the idea seems very plausible to me.)
>
> Bottom line: I think it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that there is
> lots of water on Mars.

You're probably right, but I don't see many sociopaths colonizing the Earth's
antipodes where is plenty of water
and fresh air.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
> protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
> opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 17:50:29 2001
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I didn't think I'd find it, but thanks to the kick-ass search engine directhit.com I found
it!

http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/releases/stories/36013.html


Machine Demonstrates Superhuman Speech
               Recognition Abilities

               University of Southern California biomedical engineers have created the
               world's first machine system that can recognize spoken words better than
               humans can. A fundamental rethinking of a long-underperforming computer
               architecture led to their achievement.

               The system might soon facilitate voice control of computers and other
               machines, help the deaf, aid air traffic controllers and others who must
               understand speech in noisy environments, and instantly produce clean
               transcripts of conversations, identifying each of the speakers. The U.S. Navy,

               which listens for the sounds of submarines in the hubbub of the open seas, is
               another possible user.

               Potentially, the system's novel underlying principles could have applications
in
               such medical areas as patient monitoring and the reading of
               electrocardiograms.

               In benchmark testing using just a few spoken words, USC's Berger-Liaw
               Neural Network Speaker Independent Speech Recognition System not only
               bested all existing computer speech recognition systems but outperformed the
               keenest human ears.

               Neural nets are computing devices that mimic the way brains process
               information. Speaker-independent systems can recognize a word no matter
               who or what pronounces it.

               No previous speaker-independent computer system has ever outperformed
               humans in recognizing spoken language, even in very small test bases, says
               system co-designer Theodore W. Berger, Ph.D., a professor of biomedical
               engineering in the USC School of Engineering.

               The system can distinguished words in vast amounts of random "white" noise
               — noise with amplitude 1,000 times the strength of the target auditory signal.

               Human listeners can deal with only a fraction as much.

               And the system can pluck words from the background clutter of other voices
               — the hubbub heard in bus stations, theater lobbies and cocktail parties, for
               example.

               Even the best existing systems fail completely when as little as 10 percent of

               hubbub masks a speaker’s voice. At slightly higher noise levels, the
likelihood
               that a human listener can identify spoken test words is mere chance. By
               contrast, Berger and Liaw’s system functions at 60 percent recognition with a
               hubbub level 560 times the strength of the target stimulus.

               With just a minor adjustment, the system can identify different speakers of
the
               same word with superhuman acuity.

               Berger and system co-designer Jim-Shih Liaw, Ph.D., achieved this
               improved performance by paying closer attention to the signal characteristics
               used by real flesh-and-blood brains in processing information.

               First proposed in the 1940s and the subject of intensive research in the '80s
               and early '90s, neural nets are computers configured to imitate the brain's
               system of information processing, wherein data are structured not by a
               central processing unit but by an interlinked network of simple units called
               neurons. Rather than being programmed, neural nets learn to do tasks
               through a training regimen in which desired responses to stimuli are
reinforced
               and unwanted ones are not.

               "Though mathematical theorists demonstrated that nets should be highly
               effective for certain kinds of computation (particularly pattern recognition),
it
               has been difficult for artificial neural networks even to approach the power
of
               biological systems," said Liaw, director of the Laboratory for Neural
               Dynamics and a research assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the
               USC School of Engineering.

               "Even large nets with more than 1,000 neurons and 10,000 interconnections
               have shown lackluster results compared with theoretical capabilities.
               Deficiencies were often laid to the fact that even 1,000-neuron networks are
               tiny, compared with the millions or billions of neurons in biological
systems."

               Remarkably, USC's neural net system uses an architecture consisting of just
               11 neurons connected by a mere 30 links.

               According to Berger, who has spent years studying biological
               data-processing systems, previous computer neural nets went wrong by
               oversimplifying their biological models, omitting a crucial dimension.

               "Neurons process information structured in time," he explained. "They
               communicate with one another in a 'language' whereby the 'meaning' imparted
               to the receiving neuron is coded into the signal's timing. A pair of pulses
               separated by a certain time interval excites a certain neuron, while a pair of

               pulses separated by a shorter or longer interval inhibits it.

               "So far," Berger continued, "efforts to create neural networks have had
               silicon neurons transmitting only discreet signals of varying intensity, all
               clocked the way a computer is clocked, in beats of unvarying duration. But in
               living cells, the temporal dimension, both in the exciting signal and in the
               response, is as important as the intensity."

               Berger and Liaw created computer chip neurons that closely mimic the
               signaling behavior of living cells — those of the hippocampus, the brain
               structure involved in associative learning.

               "You might say, we let our cells hear the music," Berger said.

               Berger and Liaw’s computer chip neurons were combined into a small neural
               network using standard architecture. While all the neurons shared the same
               hippocampus-mimicking general characteristics, each was randomly given
               slightly different individual characteristics, in much the same way that
               individual hippocampus neurons would have slightly different individual
               characteristics.

               The network created was then trained, using a procedure as unique as the
               neurons — again taken from the biological model, a learning rule that allows
               the temporal properties of the net connections to change.

               The USC research was funded by the Office of Naval Research; the Defense
               Department’s Advanced Research Projects Agency; the National Centers
               for Research Resources, and the National Institute of Mental Health. The
               university has applied for a patent on the system and the architectural
               concepts on which it is based.


               A demonstration of the Berger-Liaw Neural Network Speaker-Independent
               Speech Recognition System can be found on line at

               http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/real/real_video.html

John Berry wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > >I've heard that speech recognition programs can already be made better
> > >than human
> > >recognition
> >
> > Where did you hear this? It seems extremely unlikely to me. I do not think
> > that computers will ever be as capable of understanding language as people,
>
> It was on some news webpage, couldn't find it now if I tried.
>
> >
> > because so much speech is rooted in our biology, especially our primate
> > social structure.
> >
> > >, and translation software goes from great to awful depending on which one
> > >. . .
> >
> > All of the translation software output I have seen has been awful,
> > including samples from large mainframe programs not available to the
> > public. The CIA software is said to be "effective," but that does not imply
> > it is as good as a human translator!
>
> Not as good, but it's all right, it is the speech recognition that was better than human,
> translation has a way to go, but even Babel fish can often do a decent job that is
> understandable.
>
> > That would require a gigantic leap
> > forward in computer speed and software capabilities, probably by a factor
> > of 1 to 100 million,
>
> The ability to translate would require more power than is currently available?
> I doubt that, some programs are rather close, it seems they only need a bit of
> improvement.
> However the hardest part is the translation, the other two are easy.
>
> > according to recent article in Sci. Am. I do not think
> > that the CIA or any other organization, public or private, could make such
> > a leap in secret. Word of it would circulate through the high-tech
> > community. It would be like someone making a fully capable, practical cold
> > fusion powered machine. Years ago Hal Fox told me that he believed there
> > were prototype cold fusion machines running fork lifts deep in the bowels
> > of the Toyota company. I did not believe it then, and I still do not, for
> > two reasons:
> >
> > 1. How could they could keep such a thing secret?
> >
> > 2. WHY would they keep it secret? It would be worth fabulous amounts of
> > money instantly -- billions of dollars in annual sales added to their
> > corporate earnings, and a huge jump in their stock value, at a time when
> > nearly every Japanese corporation is hurting. So why wouldn't they start
> > selling the things?
> >
> > If Toyota or Blacklight Power is hiding working production prototype energy
> > machines, they are doing an incredibly irresponsible disservice to their
> > stockholders, and they are violating the most fundamental business
> > practices. No sane capitalist would hide a product worth hundreds of
> > billions of dollars. Conspiracy theories about suppressing energy
> > breakthroughs founder on this simple fact. Powerful institutions like the
> > DoE will jump to suppress an embryonic breakthrough like cold fusion. They
> > can do that easily, since CF only exists in the test tube, and in the pages
> > of obscure journal papers. But the DoE could not begin to stop it if there
> > were already CF-powered prototype machines being demonstrated.
> >
> > The CIA may be hiding Machine Translation software worth billions of
> > dollars in the name of national security, but they are not a commercial
> > enterprise. Plus they have a long history of doing idiotic things.
> > Apparently it does not occur to them that the dissemination of such
> > software would strengthen the U.S. more than it would help our rivals.
> >
> > - Jed

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Didn't seem to send first time, here goes...


I didn't think I'd find it, but thanks to the kick-ass search engine directhit.com I found
it!

http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/releases/stories/36013.html

Now if speech recognition is no problem, it's only the translation that needs work,
however people using such translators could be careful of how they word things, so if
someone is talking to you in french they could carefully word things to increase the
reliability.

Also as it is speech, the translation could take into account how the person said the word
to create a more accurate translation.

Machine Demonstrates Superhuman Speech Recognition Abilities

University of Southern California biomedical engineers have created the
world's first machine system that can recognize spoken words better than
humans can. A fundamental rethinking of a long-underperforming computer
architecture led to their achievement.

The system might soon facilitate voice control of computers and other
machines, help the deaf, aid air traffic controllers and others who must
understand speech in noisy environments, and instantly produce clean
transcripts of conversations, identifying each of the speakers. The U.S. Navy,

which listens for the sounds of submarines in the hubbub of the open seas, is
another possible user.

Potentially, the system's novel underlying principles could have applications in
such medical areas as patient monitoring and the reading of electrocardiograms.

In benchmark testing using just a few spoken words, USC's Berger-Liaw
Neural Network Speaker Independent Speech Recognition System not only
bested all existing computer speech recognition systems but outperformed the
keenest human ears.

Neural nets are computing devices that mimic the way brains process
information. Speaker-independent systems can recognize a word no matter
who or what pronounces it.

No previous speaker-independent computer system has ever outperformed
humans in recognizing spoken language, even in very small test bases, says
system co-designer Theodore W. Berger, Ph.D., a professor of biomedical
engineering in the USC School of Engineering.

The system can distinguished words in vast amounts of random "white" noise
— noise with amplitude 1,000 times the strength of the target auditory signal.

Human listeners can deal with only a fraction as much.

And the system can pluck words from the background clutter of other voices
— the hubbub heard in bus stations, theater lobbies and cocktail parties, for
example.

Even the best existing systems fail completely when as little as 10 percent of

hubbub masks a speaker’s voice. At slightly higher noise levels, the likelihood
that a human listener can identify spoken test words is mere chance. By
contrast, Berger and Liaw’s system functions at 60 percent recognition with a
hubbub level 560 times the strength of the target stimulus.

With just a minor adjustment, the system can identify different speakers of
the same word with superhuman acuity.

Berger and system co-designer Jim-Shih Liaw, Ph.D., achieved this
improved performance by paying closer attention to the signal characteristics
used by real flesh-and-blood brains in processing information.

First proposed in the 1940s and the subject of intensive research in the '80s
and early '90s, neural nets are computers configured to imitate the brain's
system of information processing, wherein data are structured not by a
central processing unit but by an interlinked network of simple units called
neurons. Rather than being programmed, neural nets learn to do tasks
through a training regimen in which desired responses to stimuli are
reinforced and unwanted ones are not.

"Though mathematical theorists demonstrated that nets should be highly
effective for certain kinds of computation (particularly pattern recognition), it
has been difficult for artificial neural networks even to approach the power of
biological systems," said Liaw, director of the Laboratory for Neural
Dynamics and a research assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the
USC School of Engineering.

"Even large nets with more than 1,000 neurons and 10,000 interconnections
have shown lackluster results compared with theoretical capabilities.
Deficiencies were often laid to the fact that even 1,000-neuron networks are
tiny, compared with the millions or billions of neurons in biological systems."

Remarkably, USC's neural net system uses an architecture consisting of just
11 neurons connected by a mere 30 links.

According to Berger, who has spent years studying biological
data-processing systems, previous computer neural nets went wrong by
oversimplifying their biological models, omitting a crucial dimension.

"Neurons process information structured in time," he explained. "They
communicate with one another in a 'language' whereby the 'meaning' imparted
to the receiving neuron is coded into the signal's timing. A pair of pulses
separated by a certain time interval excites a certain neuron, while a pair of
pulses separated by a shorter or longer interval inhibits it.

"So far," Berger continued, "efforts to create neural networks have had
silicon neurons transmitting only discreet signals of varying intensity, all
clocked the way a computer is clocked, in beats of unvarying duration. But in
response, is as important as the intensity."

Berger and Liaw created computer chip neurons that closely mimic the
signaling behavior of living cells — those of the hippocampus, the brain
 structure involved in associative learning.

"You might say, we let our cells hear the music," Berger said.

Berger and Liaw’s computer chip neurons were combined into a small neural
network using standard architecture. While all the neurons shared the same
hippocampus-mimicking general characteristics, each was randomly given
slightly different individual characteristics, in much the same way that
individual hippocampus neurons would have slightly different individual
characteristics.

The network created was then trained, using a procedure as unique as the
neurons — again taken from the biological model, a learning rule that allows
the temporal properties of the net connections to change.

The USC research was funded by the Office of Naval Research; the Defense
Department’s Advanced Research Projects Agency; the National Centers
for Research Resources, and the National Institute of Mental Health. The
university has applied for a patent on the system and the architectural
concepts on which it is based.


A demonstration of the Berger-Liaw Neural Network Speaker-Independent
Speech Recognition System can be found on line at

http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/real/real_video.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 19:41:59 2001
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:31:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:15 PM
>Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>
>> >Going by the abundance of Red Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) on Mars, if the
>> >unoxidized iron was molten (> 1828 deg K)in the planet's early stages,
>> >it's reaction with water:
>> >
>> >2 Fe + 3 H2O <---> Fe2O3 + 6 H
>> >
>> >would allow the hydrogen (H atoms) to exceed the Mars escape
>> >velocity of 5.1E3 meters/second:
>> >
>> >1/2mv^2/k = T
>> >
>> >where T is the Mars escape temperature for hydrogen atoms (1564 deg K)
>> >and k is the Boltzman constant 1.38E-23 joule/deg K.
>> >
>> >Not much chance for photosynthesis: CO2 + H2O + light ---> CH2O + O2
>> >>without water.
>>
>> ***{A hydrogen atom may exceed escape velocity, but water on Mars would
>> have to find its way into the atmosphere and be dissociated into hydrogen
>> and oxygen, in order for all or most of the water on Mars to be lost in
>> this way. However, the conditions render such a scenario unlikely:
>>
>> (1) UV levels are greatly attenuated on Mars to begin with, due to its
>> distance from the sun.
>
>Not so. The Solar Insolation is ~ 44% of the 1.36 kw/meter^2 on the Earth (600
>watts/meter^2

***{I would call a drop of 57% "greatly attenuated." However, it is
generally a waste of time to argue about word usage. --MJ}***

) with intense 200 - 300 nanometer UV capable of dissociating
>H2O i.e., greater than 4.88 ev reaching the surface.
>>
>> (2) Most of the water on Mars is guaranteed to either be frozen or bound in
>> geological formations in the form of hydrates, and hence will not be
>> available to be broken down by UV in the atmosphere.
>
>Right. But dissocation of ice crystals to atomic hydrogen
>and oxygen is still possible, but I think that molten elemental iron that
>spewed from
>volcanos is what is sequestered the oxygen.
>
>Those dark "dunes" that has a lot of folks excited, could be black iron
>oxide Fe3O4
>(Magnetite).
>
>>
>> (3) Even if there are significant atmospheric losses of water, it is
>> entirely possible that the supply of new water being brought in by small
>> comets exceeds the atmospheric losses. (I read several articles a few years
>> ago discussing the hypothesis that the Earth is being continuously
>> bombarded by "micro-comets," and as I recall there was considerable
>> evidence supporting that idea, including photographs. I don't know how that
>> debate turned out, but the idea seems very plausible to me.)
>>
>> Bottom line: I think it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that there is
>> lots of water on Mars.
>
>You're probably right, but I don't see many sociopaths colonizing the Earth's
>antipodes where there is plenty of water and fresh air.  :-)

***{That's not funny, Fred. A sociopath is a person without a conscience.
Such a description applies to people who support fascist or socialist
oppression in order to fit in, but it most assuredly *does not* apply to
those who speak out against oppression and take the consequences.

As for why libertarians don't colonize "the antipodes" (you mean the poles,
I think), the answer is obvious: any such attempts would be crushed by the
oppressive governments that such colonists would be seeking to escape.
(Various attempts along those lines have already been made, and in each
case, they were crushed. For some history and ongoing activities in this
area, see http://www.freenation.org/a/index.html.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Regards,  Frederick
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 20:06:20 2001
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Didn't seem to send first time, here goes...


I didn't think I'd find it, but thanks to the kick-ass search engine directhit.com I found
it!

http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/releases/stories/36013.html

Now if speech recognition is no problem, it's only the translation that needs work,
however people using such translators could be creful of how they word things, so if
someone is talking to you in french they could carefully word things to increase the
reliability.

Also as it is speech, the translation could take into account how the person said the word
to create a more accurate translation.

Machine Demonstrates Superhuman Speech Recognition Abilities

University of Southern California biomedical engineers have created the
world's first machine system that can recognize spoken words better than
humans can. A fundamental rethinking of a long-underperforming computer
architecture led to their achievement.

The system might soon facilitate voice control of computers and other
machines, help the deaf, aid air traffic controllers and others who must
understand speech in noisy environments, and instantly produce clean
transcripts of conversations, identifying each of the speakers. The U.S. Navy,

which listens for the sounds of submarines in the hubbub of the open seas, is
another possible user.

Potentially, the system's novel underlying principles could have applications in
such medical areas as patient monitoring and the reading of electrocardiograms.

In benchmark testing using just a few spoken words, USC's Berger-Liaw
Neural Network Speaker Independent Speech Recognition System not only
bested all existing computer speech recognition systems but outperformed the
keenest human ears.

Neural nets are computing devices that mimic the way brains process
information. Speaker-independent systems can recognize a word no matter
who or what pronounces it.

No previous speaker-independent computer system has ever outperformed
humans in recognizing spoken language, even in very small test bases, says
system co-designer Theodore W. Berger, Ph.D., a professor of biomedical
engineering in the USC School of Engineering.

The system can distinguished words in vast amounts of random "white" noise
— noise with amplitude 1,000 times the strength of the target auditory signal.

Human listeners can deal with only a fraction as much.

And the system can pluck words from the background clutter of other voices
— the hubbub heard in bus stations, theater lobbies and cocktail parties, for
example.

Even the best existing systems fail completely when as little as 10 percent of

hubbub masks a speaker’s voice. At slightly higher noise levels, the likelihood
that a human listener can identify spoken test words is mere chance. By
contrast, Berger and Liaw’s system functions at 60 percent recognition with a
hubbub level 560 times the strength of the target stimulus.

With just a minor adjustment, the system can identify different speakers of
the same word with superhuman acuity.

Berger and system co-designer Jim-Shih Liaw, Ph.D., achieved this
improved performance by paying closer attention to the signal characteristics
used by real flesh-and-blood brains in processing information.

First proposed in the 1940s and the subject of intensive research in the '80s
and early '90s, neural nets are computers configured to imitate the brain's
system of information processing, wherein data are structured not by a
central processing unit but by an interlinked network of simple units called
neurons. Rather than being programmed, neural nets learn to do tasks
through a training regimen in which desired responses to stimuli are
reinforced and unwanted ones are not.

"Though mathematical theorists demonstrated that nets should be highly
effective for certain kinds of computation (particularly pattern recognition), it
has been difficult for artificial neural networks even to approach the power of
biological systems," said Liaw, director of the Laboratory for Neural
Dynamics and a research assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the
USC School of Engineering.

"Even large nets with more than 1,000 neurons and 10,000 interconnections
have shown lackluster results compared with theoretical capabilities.
Deficiencies were often laid to the fact that even 1,000-neuron networks are
tiny, compared with the millions or billions of neurons in biological systems."

Remarkably, USC's neural net system uses an architecture consisting of just
11 neurons connected by a mere 30 links.

According to Berger, who has spent years studying biological
data-processing systems, previous computer neural nets went wrong by
oversimplifying their biological models, omitting a crucial dimension.

"Neurons process information structured in time," he explained. "They
communicate with one another in a 'language' whereby the 'meaning' imparted
to the receiving neuron is coded into the signal's timing. A pair of pulses
separated by a certain time interval excites a certain neuron, while a pair of
pulses separated by a shorter or longer interval inhibits it.

"So far," Berger continued, "efforts to create neural networks have had
silicon neurons transmitting only discreet signals of varying intensity, all
clocked the way a computer is clocked, in beats of unvarying duration. But in
response, is as important as the intensity."

Berger and Liaw created computer chip neurons that closely mimic the
signaling behavior of living cells — those of the hippocampus, the brain
 structure involved in associative learning.

"You might say, we let our cells hear the music," Berger said.

Berger and Liaw’s computer chip neurons were combined into a small neural
network using standard architecture. While all the neurons shared the same
hippocampus-mimicking general characteristics, each was randomly given
slightly different individual characteristics, in much the same way that
individual hippocampus neurons would have slightly different individual
characteristics.

The network created was then trained, using a procedure as unique as the
neurons — again taken from the biological model, a learning rule that allows
the temporal properties of the net connections to change.

The USC research was funded by the Office of Naval Research; the Defense
Department’s Advanced Research Projects Agency; the National Centers
for Research Resources, and the National Institute of Mental Health. The
university has applied for a patent on the system and the architectural
concepts on which it is based.


A demonstration of the Berger-Liaw Neural Network Speaker-Independent
Speech Recognition System can be found on line at

http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/real/real_video.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 20:41:28 2001
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Cool
  That good huh?  Betcha all the worlds police and surveillance
agencies will just line up for that one.  If they can pick out a voice
in a crowd, and just say they know just who it is from audio analysis
techniques from over 20 years ago, then they presumably could
identify everybody in a train or bus station as soon as they opened
their mouth.  This assumes that they have a voice identity print on
file for that person.  Unknown ones, however, could be tracked.
    Be real neat for the Chinese to track their Falun Gong
'troublemakers' so as to effect a final solution to their problem.
Be also real good to track our embassy workers in foreign
countries.  Other intelligence agencies will have them down pat
in picoseconds and arrested in minutes.
    Aint all this 'progress' just wonderful.  These idiots have just
invented a new mousetrap to aid in the enslavement of humanity.
   The British, a new police state in an emergent state, have a
new slogan: "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear!".  British citizens
are not called 'subjects' for nothing.  That is a far cry from:  .."the
rights o' Englishmen!"   from years ago.  But then they just got
through disarming their people under the specious guise of
'public safety';    so having actively thrown away their fundamental
right of defense,  the rest of their rights are gone too.  Only they
are too stupid to realize it yet.  They have instituted the most
extensive system of population surveillance in the history of the
world.  Ole' Adolf Hitler would have been proud of what his
idealogical unwitting heirs have done.  They already have the
video cameras on every intersection in the country with computers
to track licenses and cars.  They have instituted facial recognition
routines to track faces in crowds anywhere in the country.  They
must be employing a very signifigant percentage of their working
population in surveillance of itself.  Now they will have audio too.
  ....Nine  teeeen    Eight  -   ty     Four   We   Go.......do dah    do
dah....

    ....Maybe Sadaam Hussein will go to London for tech school in
this........Now if he can just find somebody to claim that 50 million
dollar prize that he put up for cloning him, then he will be able to
be with us forever.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 23:29:40 2001
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From: "Scott Stephens" <scott2 mediaone.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Censored on Hydrino list, and sick of wasting time talking to myself in public
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 01:28:00 -0500
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Often I've decided to stay, thinking I may learn something and help other
pilgrims like myself. Now I've decided I need to direct my attention where I
get the best bang for my buck. I think my time is better spent reading and
responding to political mailing lists rather than science. If one isn't
respected, one isn't really free. I don't demand people like and approve my
speech, only that I be allowed it and treated with equality and respect!

One of the most evil, dysfunctional head games (gaslighting) tricks I've
experienced and see commonly practiced is the breaking and distorting of
communication channels because the content of the message is considered
offensive. This is intellectual force, political force and is antithetical
to science, civilization and sanity.

The following was censored from the Hydrino list. Some here are on that
list, so I'm posting it. I hate the thought I've wasted my time and words,
even if they are poor and foolish, they are the reflections of my heart and
I value them.

Let me say thanks to the list moderator for at least allowing people to be
free to say what they choose. I wish you all the best of luck and fortune in
your research!

*************************************

"
>   From: "Luther Setzer" <luthersetzer yahoo.com>
>
>--- In hydrino y..., "John A. Kassebaum" <JKassebaum@E...> wrote:
>
>> I agree to certain extent.  Could we remove the
>> Aprils Fools joke from
>> the archive and leave it in the Hydrino.org
>> stuff somewhere marked clearly as
>> an april fools joke (and include Steven's comments)?
>> I would hate for this
>> to become a liability in future references to these archives.
>
>The thread is being deleted from the archives.
>
>Luke Setzer, PE

I find censorship far more offensive than the pranks. Something about
deleting and/or rewriting history just seems dishonest, dysfunctional and
dumb. I'm tempted to rant but I'll spare us all. Suffice to say I think your
giving the list the intellectual equivalent of a shot of heroin, I hope you
know when and have the strength to quit.

I liked the effect that post had on me. First I felt excited, that the
implications - cheap energy, averting war with China over inevitable control
of petroleum, flying cars, space travel, Terminator-like HK's spewing
microwave plasma beams on bug-eyed monsters. Made me disappointed I didn't
have more faith and beg Mills for a job, so I could be like the Micro$oft
employees that got filthy rich on stock. A minute later  I was feeling
humiliated over how I could believe in such a foolish, free energy snake-oil
scam. And then of course I was angry at the joker.

And that is why I'm still on this list. There is a certain drama being
played out, an excitement of a gamble of faith. But more than that cheap
thrill, is knowing that if I increase my understanding of physics, then like
the Casino or the governments lottery, I'm a sure winner. And what I can get
here that I can't get in a textbook is the observation of fellow explorers
betting and testing their faith on the frontier, their understanding and
reason. Because as well as con men and scams, there are rainbows with pots
of Gold under them. Semiconductors, superconductors, plasma science and
technologies waiting to be applied. This mailing list is the record of our
reasoning, how we attempted to discriminate Gold from the Pyrite.

Why should Mills show his poker hand, when competitors could gain, 'national
security' (from the perspective of politicians that value selfish control
more than progress and prosperity) could be compromised, or Mills would be
found to be bluffing? He's not going to do it, whine and goad as you may! I
wouldn't want him as my physician, but he is making a fine executive. It
'appears' he is a better business man than humanitarian. Unless he
subscribes to (IMHO) deluded socialist values that the government and
centralized control is a positive good to be increased, rather than a
necessary evil to be constantly kept in check, as America's founders did.
Our military may want to keep the monopoly on the high ground, and us sheep
in the global, Orwellian Animal Farm.

It would be tragic for the list moderator to rewrite history, to begin the
damning practice of believing ones own lies, repressing and twisting truth.
Even after the facts are out, editing the list out of pride or anger. Wisdom
and sanity is worth far more than trivial details about physics, that sooner
or later are discovered and left in the past. I found that nasty little
prank quite insightful. But if it happens again, I'll start figuring out how
to get even 8^)

Scott
"

****************************************************************************
Freedom is pursuing your carrot, not running from somebody's stick
Does society make you enthusiastic, or fearful?

The mob rules only what its members achieve.
****************************************************************************


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 06:24:23 2001
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Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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It seems that the Solar insolation of  ~ 50 watts/meter^2 of UV/X-ray of energy
greater than 4.88 eV can dissociate the O2, N2, CO2, and H2O molecules of the Mars
atmosphere and give them enough kinetic energy to exceed the Martian escape velocity
of 5.0E3 meters/second:

m = E/[0.5*(5.0E3)^2]

where E is the photon energy in joules.

Or, A = m/1.66E-27 gives the atomic or molecular weight
of atoms or molecules that can be accelerated to escape
velocity by UV/X-ray interaction at a given energy.

Small wonder that the Martian atmosphere is very tenuous (4 to 6 Torr at the surface)
after a few billion years, with
CO2 (A = 44) being the predominant atmospheric molecule.

Regards,   Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:39:17 2001
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Standing Bear wrote:

>     Be real neat for the Chinese to track their Falun Gong
>'troublemakers' so as to effect a final solution to their problem.
>Be also real good to track our embassy workers in foreign
>countries.  Other intelligence agencies will have them down pat
>in picoseconds and arrested in minutes.
>     Aint all this 'progress' just wonderful.  These idiots have just
>invented a new mousetrap to aid in the enslavement of humanity.

The Chinese and Japanese governments enslaved their populations quite 
effectively 1,500 years ago, with primitive technology. I doubt they could 
do a better job today. In general, we should not try to stop progress or 
put aside promising research because someone, somewhere might use it for 
malevolent purposes. I suppose we should avoid developing an ultra-cheap, 
do-it-yourself thermonuclear bomb, but a thing like speech recognition has 
countless benign applications. It will help millions of people live better, 
with less drudgery and more independence. It will improve voice input 
tremendously, which is a blessing for me and others who suffer from CTS. 
(The web site has a demonstration comparing the performance of the new 
algorithm to Naturally Speaking voice input. The new method is FAR better.) 
We must not turn away from such a promising development just because 
someone will use it to bad ends.

The same goes for CF.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 09:02:31 2001
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John Berry wrote:

>I didn't think I'd find it, but thanks to the kick-ass search engine 
>directhit.com I found
>it!
>
>http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/releases/stories/36013.html

That's astounding! The graphs and sample speech clips are impressive. This 
should teach me not to try to predict technological progress.


>Now if speech recognition is no problem, it's only the translation that 
>needs work . . .

It needs a tremendous amount of work, as far as I know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 09:13:19 2001
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Before people get bent out of shape over this, it's worth putting into
perspective .

This is a remarkable development, illustrating the power of neural networks
and the fact that one should pay ***very close*** attention to how nature
does things.

What is fundamental here is a demonstration of the power of neural networks
at pattern recognition, which lies at the foundation of all our senses and
probably much of our reasoning. Neural networks cannot be "programmed", they
must be taught like children. The network in question is small and certainly
by itself isn't going to do much, it's less intelligent than an ant. What
they have shown is that when trained to respond to a specific stimulus, it
can do so even when the stimulus is swamped by noise, including noise which
resembles (has similar spectral characteristics to the noise).

It is hopeful extrapolation to stretch that to talker identification in a
noisy environment. We are a safe distance from that. We are closer to face
recognition, but not much closer. The British video monitors are there to
minimize random street crime, since the mugger can be sure that the tapes
will be looked at after the fact. This doesn't essentially differ from a cop
on every corner and the basic principle that public places are public
places. 1984 included video cameras in every private space. Surveillance of
sports arenas also serves to put rioters on notice that they will be
tracked.

Mike Carrell

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Earthquakes of density around 7 to 8, even beyond 4 or 6 cause lots of
devastations,
and the earth starts shaking, as also the buildings and structures above
cauring them
to break up, and tremble and trumble down. The greatest effect is at the
place of
its epi-centre, and thins out as the distance increases. These are stated to
be caused by
the adjustments of the earth below, say hundreds of meters below.
.
Will some kind soul explain that when earth, at least on the outside, is a
solid block, and when the
earth shakes right and left so heavily at one place, why must the tremblings
not be the same
all over the world, and why it is restricted to the place of epi centre, and
thinning out in areas
around as the distances increase ?
.
S.P.TUTEJA
eximcon mail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 11:06:11 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Universal Traslator
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>This is a remarkable development, illustrating the power of neural networks
>and the fact that one should pay ***very close*** attention to how nature
>does things.

Do we know that nature does this? Computer neural networks are based on 
long-standing theories of how the brain might work, with its network of 
neurons, but as far as I know these theories are still speculation. I do 
not know much about this.


>The network in question is small and certainly
>by itself isn't going to do much, it's less intelligent than an ant.

I read somewhere that computer neural nets now have more simulated 
connections than ant brains. I don't know the numbers for either computers 
or ants.


>  What
>they have shown is that when trained to respond to a specific stimulus, it
>can do so even when the stimulus is swamped by noise, including noise which
>resembles (has similar spectral characteristics to the noise).

I think you mean: has similar spectral characteristics to the signal.

- Jed

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Universal Traslator
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>Cool
>  That good huh?  Betcha all the worlds police and surveillance
>agencies will just line up for that one.  If they can pick out a voice
>in a crowd, and just say they know just who it is from audio analysis
>techniques from over 20 years ago, then they presumably could
>identify everybody in a train or bus station as soon as they opened
>their mouth.  This assumes that they have a voice identity print on
>file for that person.  Unknown ones, however, could be tracked.
>    Be real neat for the Chinese to track their Falun Gong
>'troublemakers' so as to effect a final solution to their problem.
>Be also real good to track our embassy workers in foreign
>countries.  Other intelligence agencies will have them down pat
>in picoseconds and arrested in minutes.
>    Aint all this 'progress' just wonderful.  These idiots have just
>invented a new mousetrap to aid in the enslavement of humanity.
>   The British, a new police state in an emergent state, have a
>new slogan: "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear!".  British citizens
>are not called 'subjects' for nothing.  That is a far cry from:  .."the
>rights o' Englishmen!"   from years ago.  But then they just got
>through disarming their people under the specious guise of
>'public safety';    so having actively thrown away their fundamental
>right of defense,  the rest of their rights are gone too.  Only they
>are too stupid to realize it yet.  They have instituted the most
>extensive system of population surveillance in the history of the
>world.  Ole' Adolf Hitler would have been proud of what his
>idealogical unwitting heirs have done.  They already have the
>video cameras on every intersection in the country with computers
>to track licenses and cars.  They have instituted facial recognition
>routines to track faces in crowds anywhere in the country.  They
>must be employing a very signifigant percentage of their working
>population in surveillance of itself.  Now they will have audio too.
>  ....Nine  teeeen    Eight  -   ty     Four   We   Go.......do dah    do
>dah....
>
>    ....Maybe Sadaam Hussein will go to London for tech school in
>this........Now if he can just find somebody to claim that 50 million
>dollar prize that he put up for cloning him, then he will be able to
>be with us forever.

***{Your concerns that such technology will be misused are well taken, but
I must point out that the threat does not come from the technology, but
from governments which are empowered to violate property rights, supposedly
in the public interest. The fact of the matter is that until we have the
option of moving to a country where property rights are absolute--i.e., a
laissez faire capitalist society--the misuse of technology by government
will remain a fact of life. The ultimate result, if the movement to create
a free country fails, will be the devolution of mankind into a loathsome
"wired" collective akin to the "Borg," as depicted in various *Star Trek*
episodes. If that happens, then the deserved and eventual fate of mankind
will be extinction. --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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Jed wrote:
> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >This is a remarkable development, illustrating the power of neural
networks
> >and the fact that one should pay ***very close*** attention to how nature
> >does things.
>
> Do we know that nature does this? Computer neural networks are based on
> long-standing theories of how the brain might work, with its network of
> neurons, but as far as I know these theories are still speculation. I do
> not know much about this.

A bit of explanation is useful. I'll be short, as this if off-topic. The
elementary actions of neurons have been studied extensively. Basically,
nerve cells interconnect with others through junctions called synapses at
which chemical interactions take place. Some act to stimulate, others to
inhibit. When a threshold 'voting' of excitation and inhibition goes
positive, the neuron 'fires' transmitting an electrochemical pulse down its
fibers to stimulate its synapses which affect other neurons. So the
stimulation-inhibition is an analog process, the firing is nominally
digital. The interconnections are beyond belief, some neurons having
hundreds of synapses. While the act of firing is 'digital' the rate of
firing is not, it is another analog signal which will influence the kind of
stimuli given through synapses to other neurons. All of this is influenced
by the chemical environment, so the whole brain-body system is extremely
complex.

The "chemical balance" referred to in ads for mood-altering drugs target the
activity thresholds of the synapses in a global way. They are thus
potentially very dangerous.
>
> >The network in question is small and certainly
> >by itself isn't going to do much, it's less intelligent than an ant.
>
> I read somewhere that computer neural nets now have more simulated
> connections than ant brains. I don't know the numbers for either computers
> or ants.

Ants don't have very many, computer ****simulations**** can have many more,
but not of the same **kind**. Much interesting work is being done with
miniature robots which are the size of insects and have reflexive responses
like insects. Not surprisingly, they also act like insects, making their way
over irregular terrain.

the key difference in the reported research is that the array is sensitive
to the rate of firing, instead of being clocked as is done in computers.
Thus previous neural networks or simulations thereof may have missed a
critical factor.

This work is very difficult, for the interactions defy description by linear
thought, and it can't be "programmed".
>
> >  What
> >they have shown is that when trained to respond to a specific stimulus,
it
> >can do so even when the stimulus is swamped by noise, including noise
which
> >resembles (has similar spectral characteristics to the noise).
>
> I think you mean: has similar spectral characteristics to the signal.

Quite right. Thanks

Mike
>
> - Jed
>
>


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At 10:08 PM 4/4/01 +0530, eximcon wrote:
.
>Will some kind soul explain that when earth, at least on the outside, is a
>solid block, and when the earth shakes right and left so heavily at one 
>place, why must the tremblings not be the same all over the world, and why 
>it is restricted to the place of epi centre, and thinning out in areas
>around as the distances increase ?

The Earth is not perfectly rigid.  It is elastic like any other solid and 
there is internal friction (i.e. damping).  So, when it shakes in one 
place, the waves travel outward from that point and eventually die out to 
nothing due to the damping.  In other words, the energy in the waves is 
eventually dissipated as heat and the waves are then gone...with only 
slightly warmer Earth remaining.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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As for translation I can normally get the drift of what is being said with babel fish
translations.
And the same neural networks might help out there for all I know?

Anyway as for predicting technological progress I fully agree, I would have though the TV
and computers too complex.

Guiding an electron to the exact right point with the right intensity to make a cell of
phosphorus to glow! And sending these signals through the air! You have to get the whole
thing in synch!  The electron gun even seems to break conservation laws IMO.

Or computers, which seem impossible, and nothing I know about electricity or electronic
components suggests they should be possible.



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
>
> >I didn't think I'd find it, but thanks to the kick-ass search engine
> >directhit.com I found
> >it!
> >
> >http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/releases/stories/36013.html
>
> That's astounding! The graphs and sample speech clips are impressive. This
> should teach me not to try to predict technological progress.
>
> >Now if speech recognition is no problem, it's only the translation that
> >needs work . . .
>
> It needs a tremendous amount of work, as far as I know.
>
> - Jed

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>
>
>The conventional branching ratio does not apply when these other processes are
>occurring.  In addition, transmutation appears to need the presence of H or D.
>Hence these nuclei appear to be converted to something that can pass,
>unhindered, through any coulomb barrier including other D or H.  I suggest you
>read some models that have been proposed and justified rather than fixing on
>your own model.

I am not fixed on any model.  I offered a model as one example of an 
energetic process.

In my mind, CF really is doing something, but it is doing it near the 
surface of the materials, and as a result, it burns out through the 
materials and will never become a commercially viable source of 
energy.  The process destroys the reactor.

Also, you mentioned alpha emitters.  Most nuclei, a ways above iron, are 
exothermic when they undergo alpha spallation (I haven't checked nuclei 
right next to iron, but if you get a ways up the chart, then all nuclei are 
exothermic to alpha.)

rt





NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 01:03 PM 4/3/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Ross,
>I would like to add my two cents  to Horace's excellent comment.
>First of all, the use of the word "cold" in cold fusion has no meaning with
>respect to temperature.  It is only a simple-minded way to designate the
>field.  Obviously, local, focused energy is involved.


First of all, this is precisely the point I have been making.  But the 
term, cold, in science, means that things are literally cold, ie, moving 
slowly with little KE.  The term cold should be discarded.  And Low energy 
Nuclear reactions doesn't help, because low energy, once again means cold.

The field of study needs a name like, Intense Micro Implosion Nuclear 
Reactions........or some such to indicate to the world that you guys are 
studying intense stuff, and not cold stuff.  The term cold is a goofy, 
incorrect, misleading, horrible term.  And to carry that baggage has 
stiffled the advancement and funding since it was first coined.


>Second, overwhelming
>evidence exists showing that nuclear reactions are being initiated.  I suggest
>you read

I don't need to read anything.  I know that excellent evidence 
exists.  Again you miss the point.  The point isn't that I object to the 
experimental observations, rather, I object to the NAME, "cold fusion".




>some of the studies referenced on my web site at
>http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  If you want to believe that
>nuclear reactions are not involved, you will have to show why these many
>observations are false and how so much energy can be generated by other
>means.  On the other hand, you can just make the bold statement and look like
>a fool (no offense).


I don't look like a fool except to those that fail to read what I wrote, 
and I certainly look like no fool to you.  You are in total agreement from 
your statement that some form of intense nuclear reactions are taking 
place.  That, is my point.  Hence, trash the stupid name, "cold fusion", 
and perhaps funding will begin rolling in.  Unfortunately, the water is so 
tainted by now that a rose by any other name will smell as bad to main 
stream scientists who haven't read the data.

I am not who you need to convince.  My sole point is, I don't believe that 
some magical, low temp phenomena is happening where nuclei magically drop 
their coulomb repulsion and decide to join together just because their 
density was decreased by half or some such.  There are so many ways that 
intense, energetic, lattice tearing, cavity slamming, nuclear bashing 
phenomena can take place inside of solid materials that clearly one should 
expect that nuclear reactions are possible.

I am not the enemy.  I am just trying to point out that the banners under 
which the crusade is being advanced is not a good sounding one, and that it 
does not accurately reflect the many energetic phenomena that one could 
consider might be responsible.  CF and LENR are both horrible names to use.

rt






>Regards,
>Ed
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> > At 11:15 AM 4/3/1, Ross Tessien wrote:
> >
> > >The point is, "Cold" fusion may well not be cold at all.  Many people
> > >already think this, ie, Roger Stringham for example, and I for example.  I
> > >am not saying that I think "cold fusion experiments" aren't doing anything
> > >interesting, or nuclear.
> >
> > This is clearly false.  If not, there would exist the dead lab assistant
> > syndrome.  There are not the corresponding neutrons from CF.  The branching
> > ratios for CF are wildly different.  This is the scientifically interesting
> > and potentially most practical aspect of CF.   It is true that there may be
> > mixed regimes in which the braching ratios make transitions, but the
> > difference in the regimes tested and published to date are like night and
> > day.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Horace Heffner

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 16:10:01 2001
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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:50:33 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <009401c0bc83$ccf4b220$0c6cd626 varisys.com>
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At 05:19 PM 4/3/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Ross,
>Nice to have you back on vortex reporting on progress by
>your company. Are you still planning a book about your astrophysics/
>ether theories?

I intend to drive fusion first, prior to the book.  But, I have toyed with 
writing a paper for PRL or something like that.  The astrophysicists have 
keyed into several of the observations I pointed out years ago, including 
all of the dark matter and now dark energy observations of distant 
supernovae.  And, they now are considering what the source of the dark 
energy might be.  But they haven't put two and two together yet to 
recognize that the inertial accelerations of matter in solar coronal mass 
ejections, planetary nebulae FLIERs, and t-tauri jets are due to an error 
in interpretation of mass to energy conversion.  Anyway, they are making 
headway so I may write a paper that wouldn't be rejected immediately.



>Ross Tessien wrote:
> > My contention is that nothing **cold** is going on in nuclear reactions,
> > AND, that DD or DT fusion is not what is going on.
> >
> > Hence, the NAME..............."COLD FUSION".............must be incorrect
> > on TWO points, it isn't cold, and it isn't fusion.
>-
>We all process the experimental data through our own filter formed
>by our previous observations, interpretations, and theories. When you
>talk about Stringham's work as quite possibly being related to your own
>company's work and involving relatively "hot" conditions, I can see
>your point.

Well, it is Stringham's point too.  We have met and spoken about this a 
couple times.



>Still, Stringham does not find significant gammas or neutrons.

Correct.  Ergo it isn't a classical DD type nuclear reaction, it must be 
something else.  That said, he considers that cavitation is what is 
providing the intense conditions to drive whatever it is that is happening.



>To apply your filter and conclude that all of the LENR and Mills experiments
>must be explained in these terms is not reasonable from my perspective.
>Something else is going on, it may or may not be direct fusion, but it
>certainly is a relatively low energy process.

I don't contend that everything must be like my process.  I don't contend 
that Mill's is doing what we intend to do.  I don't have time to 
investigate everyone's process.  What I was saying, is that the individuals 
ought to look into the possibility that they are accidentally doing 
something radically intense, that they didn't anticipate they were doing, 
and which would reasonably drive nuclear reactions.

rt


>Regards,
>George Holz                george varisys.com
>Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
>Bound Brook, NJ          08805
>

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 21:34:55 2001
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At 10:08 PM 4/4/01 +0530, you wrote:
>Will some kind soul explain that when earth, at least on the outside, is a
>solid block, and when the
>earth shakes right and left so heavily at one place, why must the tremblings
>not be the same
>all over the world, and why it is restricted to the place of epi centre, and
>thinning out in areas
>around as the distances increase ?

Eximcon:

Sure.  The fact is that the earth crust is not solid but just very firm 
compared to us.   In fact  the crust is more like a bunch of loosely fitted 
hard stuff floating on a giant see of soft  (liquid) stuff.   When the hard 
stuff shifts about there are tremors and quakes.

The thinning of the movements (waves) is because the same amount of energy 
is covering a much larger aria.   Surface waves dissipate proportionally to 
distance.  Double the distance and you double the aria that is effected by 
the wave at the moment it passes.  This cuts the  amplitude in half.   The 
shock waves (traveling directly from the underground epicenter) 
are  effected by the inverce square law.  (double the distance and cut the 
amplitude in half)

Hope this helps





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 01:10:52 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen-Reduced Iron on Mars
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 18:09:47 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:22:47 -0900:
[snip]
>No, not at all.  Mars folks will need structural materials to build habitat
>and launch facilities, and oxygen too.  Will need CO2 for plants as well,
>but there is plenty of that.  Ultimately, Mars may be a good civilization
>base from which to mine the asteroid belt.
[snip]
There's only one problem. The current owners might not be too happy
about it, after all they keep on shooting down the mars probes :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 06:51:26 2001
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Ross Tessien wrote:

> At 01:03 PM 4/3/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >Dear Ross,
> >I would like to add my two cents  to Horace's excellent comment.
> >First of all, the use of the word "cold" in cold fusion has no meaning with
> >respect to temperature.  It is only a simple-minded way to designate the
> >field.  Obviously, local, focused energy is involved.
>
> First of all, this is precisely the point I have been making.  But the
> term, cold, in science, means that things are literally cold, ie, moving
> slowly with little KE.  The term cold should be discarded.  And Low energy
> Nuclear reactions doesn't help, because low energy, once again means cold.

The designation "cold fusion" was coined by Steve Jones to make the point that the
environment was cold compared to hot fusion.  In this context, I the term is
correct.  However, the term has gotten a bad name, not because anyone objects to
the idea of "cold" but because the term designates a phenomenon that is not
believed to be real.  No matter what you might call this phenomenon, the rejection
would continue.  Indeed, I have attempted to change the name to Chemically
Assisted Nuclear Reaction (CANR) with no effect on its acceptance.

>
>
> The field of study needs a name like, Intense Micro Implosion Nuclear
> Reactions........or some such to indicate to the world that you guys are
> studying intense stuff, and not cold stuff.  The term cold is a goofy,
> incorrect, misleading, horrible term.  And to carry that baggage has
> stiffled the advancement and funding since it was first coined.

The term you propose has within it a proposed mechanism that I think many in the
field would not accept, let alone the skeptics.

>
>
> >Second, overwhelming
> >evidence exists showing that nuclear reactions are being initiated.  I suggest
> >you read
>
> I don't need to read anything.  I know that excellent evidence
> exists.  Again you miss the point.  The point isn't that I object to the
> experimental observations, rather, I object to the NAME, "cold fusion".

I made this statement because you said in the part you sniped that you did not
believe nuclear reactions were occurring.  I take it from your present statement
that you have changed your mind.

>
>
> >some of the studies referenced on my web site at
> >http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  If you want to believe that
> >nuclear reactions are not involved, you will have to show why these many
> >observations are false and how so much energy can be generated by other
> >means.  On the other hand, you can just make the bold statement and look like
> >a fool (no offense).
>
> I don't look like a fool except to those that fail to read what I wrote,
> and I certainly look like no fool to you.  You are in total agreement from
> your statement that some form of intense nuclear reactions are taking
> place.  That, is my point.  Hence, trash the stupid name, "cold fusion",
> and perhaps funding will begin rolling in.  Unfortunately, the water is so
> tainted by now that a rose by any other name will smell as bad to main
> stream scientists who haven't read the data.

Sorry to have gotten personal.  I'm afraid my patience is getting too thin.
Nevertheless, we agree that no matter what we call "cold fusion", the attitude of
general science will not change.  Therefore, changing the name is a non-issue.

>
>
> I am not who you need to convince.  My sole point is, I don't believe that
> some magical, low temp phenomena is happening where nuclei magically drop
> their coulomb repulsion and decide to join together just because their
> density was decreased by half or some such.  There are so many ways that
> intense, energetic, lattice tearing, cavity slamming, nuclear bashing
> phenomena can take place inside of solid materials that clearly one should
> expect that nuclear reactions are possible.

Here is were reasonable men can differ.  While you can not believe such a magical
mechanism occurs, there are many people who have good reason to accept such a low
temperature mechanism.  We will just have to wait and see who is correct.

>
>
> I am not the enemy.  I am just trying to point out that the banners under
> which the crusade is being advanced is not a good sounding one, and that it
> does not accurately reflect the many energetic phenomena that one could
> consider might be responsible.  CF and LENR are both horrible names to use.

While I agree with your point, these names are accepted by everyone to describe
the phenomenon.  Another name would create confusion.  As we agree, just changing
the name would have no effect on the future of the field.

Regards,
Ed

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Ross Tessien wrote:

> >
> >
> >The conventional branching ratio does not apply when these other processes are
> >occurring.  In addition, transmutation appears to need the presence of H or D.
> >Hence these nuclei appear to be converted to something that can pass,
> >unhindered, through any coulomb barrier including other D or H.  I suggest you
> >read some models that have been proposed and justified rather than fixing on
> >your own model.
>
> I am not fixed on any model.  I offered a model as one example of an
> energetic process.
>
> In my mind, CF really is doing something, but it is doing it near the
> surface of the materials, and as a result, it burns out through the
> materials and will never become a commercially viable source of
> energy.  The process destroys the reactor.

We agree that the process occurs near the surface.  However, no evidence exists
that the process destroys the reactor.  Isolated regions are found to be destroyed
but this is rare.  It appears that the active regions heat up, lose deuterium,
turn off, cool, absorb deuterium, then heat up again.  This cycle can continue
indefinitely.

>
>
> Also, you mentioned alpha emitters.  Most nuclei, a ways above iron, are
> exothermic when they undergo alpha spallation (I haven't checked nuclei
> right next to iron, but if you get a ways up the chart, then all nuclei are
> exothermic to alpha.)

Yes, but isotopes are found that are below iron and can not emit alpha.  In
addition, the measured energy is too high to be explained by alpha emission.
Nevertheless, I agree that occasional alpha emission might be produced under some
conditions.

Regards,
Ed

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Mike Carrell wrote:


>A bit of explanation is useful. I'll be short, as this if off-topic. The
>elementary actions of neurons have been studied extensively. Basically,
>nerve cells interconnect with others through junctions called synapses at
>which chemical interactions take place. Some act to stimulate, others to
>inhibit. . . .

Yes, I realize this, but has it been firmly established that this happens, 
and this is the actual, physical basis of memory and thinking? No doubt 
this is an important part of brain function, but the last time I read about 
this subject, 20 years ago, rival theories put memory and cogitation at 
deeper levels within the cell. There do not seem to be enough cells to hold 
all of the memories people retain.

This is not to downplay the importance of learning from nature, but it 
would be ironic if we learn someday that effective voice recognition 
computer software can be based on an incorrect or incomplete model of 
biological thought processes. It would be like building effective CF 
devices based on the hypothesis that D+D fusion is the main mechanism, only 
to find later on that the heat mainly comes from Mills' shrinking atoms or 
ZPE. The first commercially successful steam engines, built in 1695, were 
based on medieval theories of heat and thermodynamics. Heat engines made 
tremendous progress before modern thermodynamics were finally established, 
in the late 1860s, as I recall.

As it happens, I do not see how shrinking atoms or ZPE can be reconciled 
with the helium results reported by McKubre and others, and I consider 
these results some of the most solid in the field, so I assume this must be 
the end of the line for Mills. If I were investing in Blacklight, I would 
be extremely nervous about a rock-solid experimental result which says 
their theory and intellectual property has no market value. I cannot follow 
the technical debate in the Mills discussion group, and as far as I know, 
Mills himself refuses to discuss CF results. Some people have said that the 
latest Mills devices are unrelated to metal lattice CF. However:

1. As I have often said, it seems unlikely that there are two, three or 
more heretofore undiscovered easy ways to extract fusion-like energy.

2. The original Mills excess heat experiments were definitely CF. They are 
the only ones that have independently replicated, by Thermacore and others, 
as far as I know. The more recent results with exotic chemicals cannot be 
trusted yet. The longer Mills delays in releasing sample quantities of the 
chemicals for verification, the less likely it is they are real. As far as 
I know, no breakthrough of this importance was ever withheld from the 
public, except nuclear energy during WWII. Things like photography, 
telephones, transistors, the maser and HTSC were sampled to other labs 
within weeks of their discovery.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 09:29:21 2001
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 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/05/new.planets/index.html?s=2

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 09:43:44 2001
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Stringham device at IE
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In the latest issue of IE (#36, Vol 6, 2001) there's a report (p. 18) of 
confirmation of Stringham's excess heat results from a copy of his 
sonofusion device being tested at the NERL lab by Ken Rauen.

Gene, Ken, et al:

The article mentions a result of 7.5 watts heat output for 5 watts 
electrical input. The 5 watt electrical input is apparently obtained by 
taking the difference between the total electrical input measured by a 
line-voltage wattmeter and the calorimetrically measured heat dissipated by 
the oscillator electronics.

For that particular run, what was the total line-voltage electrical input?

TIA



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 11:04:42 2001
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Subject: Washington Post: "Millions Could Lose Their Power"
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See:

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43861-2001Apr5.html

QUOTES:

The past winter's surge in fuel prices has left 3.6 million low-income 
people in 19 states and the District with $870 million in unpaid heating 
bills and facing a potential cut-off of utility service, according to a 
survey of state heating assistant programs released today. . . .

"Because natural gas prices doubled this winter, the amount of past-due 
bills is much higher, and so is the number of people who can't pay these 
debts off," said Mark Wolfe, executive director of the [National Energy 
Assistance Directors' Association] . . .

Nationwide, consumers' energy bills this year are expected to be about $150 
billion higher than a year ago, said David Wyss, chief economist for 
Standard & Poor, primarily because of the early arrival of very cold winter 
weather throughout much of the nation in November. A sudden jump in fuel 
demand was followed up by a big runup in oil and natural gas prices at the 
end of the year.

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>It seems that the Solar insolation of  ~ 50 watts/meter^2 of UV/X-ray of
>energy
>greater than 4.88 eV

***{That is a mere 7.81x10^-19 joules. --MJ}***

can dissociate the O2, N2, CO2, and H2O molecules of the Mars
>atmosphere and give them enough kinetic energy to exceed the Martian
>escape velocity
>of 5.0E3 meters/second

***{Um, let's see: since the work required to move a mass m from the
surface of a planet of mass M to infinity is E = GMm/r, any object moving
away from said planet with a kinetic energy greater than or equal to GMm/r
can be said to have escape velocity. Thus GMm/r = (1/2)mV^2, and V =
(2GM/r)^.5

In the case of Mars, I couldn't find the value of M directly, but I did
determine that the average density is 3.95 gm/cc. Since the volume of Mars
is (4/3)¼r^3, it follows that the mass is M = (3.95)(4/3)¼r^3 =
(3.95)(4/3)¼[(3397.5)(1000)(100)]^3 = 6.49x10^26 gm. Thus V =  (2GM/r)^.5 =
[2(6.67x10^-8)( 6.49x10^26)/(3397.5)(1000)(100)]^.5 = 5.05x10^5 cm/sec, or
5.05x10^3 m/sec.

Bottom line: your escape velocity of 5.0E3 m/sec looks OK.

--Mitchell Jones}***

:
>
>m = E/[0.5*(5.0E3)^2]
>
>where E is the photon energy in joules.
>
>Or, A = m/1.66E-27 gives the atomic or molecular weight
>of atoms or molecules that can be accelerated to escape
>velocity by UV/X-ray interaction at a given energy.
>
>Small wonder that the Martian atmosphere is very tenuous (4 to 6 Torr at
>the surface)
>after a few billion years, with CO2 (A = 44) being the predominant
>atmospheric
>molecule.

***{If it were that simple, Earth and Venus would have lost all their water
by now. Fortunately, the mere demonstration that some gases are subject to
dissociation and loss from the upper atmosphere is *not* sufficient to
support a conclusion about whether their quantities, in the net, are
increasing or decreasing. As I noted the other day, a strong case can be
made that Mars is experiencing an infall of small comets equivalent to a
global rainfall of 1 inch (2.54 cm) every 20,000 years. (See
http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/.) That calculates out to 3.68x10^18
gms, or 9.77x10^14 gallons of H2O. Since that number didn't seem to get
your attention, let me see if I can put it in a form that will.

To begin, note that a cubic mile of water has a mass of
(5280)^3(12)^3(2.54)^3 = 4.17x10^15 grams. Thus by the small comet theory
the amount of water infalling onto Mars every 20,000 years is about
3.68x10^18/4.17x10^15 = 882 cubic miles. That is a hell of a lot of water,
Fred--about 1/7th the mass of the entire Martian atmosphere. For all I
know, it may exceed the amount being lost into space. If it does, then we
need to come up with some other explanation for the thinness of the Martian
atmosphere. (Sequestration of water in hydrates, for example.) Thus until
you or someone can quantify the rate of water loss, so that we can compare
it to the infall and decide which is larger, we will have no real basis for
believing that Martian water, in the net, is being lost to space.

There are also lots of concrete examples which demonstrate that the infall
must be considered:

(1) Pluto, with a radius of 1.16x10^8 cm and a mass of 1.19x10^25 gms, has
an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
[2(6.67x10^-8)(1.19x10^25)/(1.16x10^8)]^.5 = 1.17x10^5 cm/sec, and has been
determined to have a substantial atmosphere consisting mostly of methane.

(2) Saturn's moon Titan, with a radius of 2.58x10^8 cm and a mass of
1.34x10^26 gms, has an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
[2(6.67x10^-8)(1.34x10^26)/(2.58x10^8)]^.5 =  2.63x10^5 cm/sec, and has a
substantial nitrogen atmosphere.

(3)  Neptune's moon Triton, with a radius of 1.75x10^8 cm and a mass of
1.32x10^26 gms, has an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
[2(6.67x10^-8)(1.32x10^26)/(1.75x10^8)]^.5 = 3.17x10^5 cm/sec, and a
substantial nitrogen atmosphere.

Each of the above examples involves escape velocities that are much less
than that of Mars, and yet, despite that, the atmospheres are much larger.
What this suggests is that loss of gases to space frequently does not reach
equilibrium with the infall of gases *from* space, until a thick atmosphere
exists.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Regards,   Frederick

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 12:49:14 2001
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>
>
>The designation "cold fusion" was coined by Steve Jones to make the point 
>that the
>environment was cold compared to hot fusion.  In this context, I the term is
>correct.  However, the term has gotten a bad name, not because anyone 
>objects to
>the idea of "cold" but because the term designates a phenomenon that is not
>believed to be real.  No matter what you might call this phenomenon, the 
>rejection
>would continue.  Indeed, I have attempted to change the name to Chemically
>Assisted Nuclear Reaction (CANR) with no effect on its acceptance.

I know all this.  But "Chemically Assisted........"   is another problem 
name.  Chemical and Nuclear are two different reaction regimes separated by 
a million fold energy differential.  There is no way any nuclear scientist 
would accept or embrace any process that alluded to the possibility that 
his prized high energy processes were in any way related to the lower class 
study of chemical reactions.  You must play to the likes, dislikes, and pre 
conceptions of the status quo and come up with a name that appeals, or at a 
minimum isn't objectionable to, the majority of scientists.





> >
> >
> > The field of study needs a name like, Intense Micro Implosion Nuclear
> > Reactions........or some such to indicate to the world that you guys are
> > studying intense stuff, and not cold stuff.  The term cold is a goofy,
> > incorrect, misleading, horrible term.  And to carry that baggage has
> > stiffled the advancement and funding since it was first coined.
>
>The term you propose has within it a proposed mechanism that I think many 
>in the
>field would not accept, let alone the skeptics.

Fine, get another name.  Call them Novel Mechanism Nuclear Reactions or, 
whatever, but get away from cold, get away from low energy, get away from 
chemical.




> >
> >
> > >Second, overwhelming
> > >evidence exists showing that nuclear reactions are being initiated.  I 
> suggest
> > >you read
> >
> > I don't need to read anything.  I know that excellent evidence
> > exists.  Again you miss the point.  The point isn't that I object to the
> > experimental observations, rather, I object to the NAME, "cold fusion".
>
>I made this statement because you said in the part you sniped that you did not
>believe nuclear reactions were occurring.  I take it from your present 
>statement
>that you have changed your mind.

No.  I didn't change my mind and I never said I didn't believe that nuclear 
reactions might be occuring in CF experiments.  What I said was, assuming 
that nuclear reactions are taking place, they certainly aren't due to some 
cold mechanism........in my opinion.  In other words, I simply said that 
any CF researcher that thinks the actual nuclear reaction process is a cold 
QM sort of wierd interaction, ought to consider the possibility that there 
is something intense going on in the device instead.

I said there are no cold fusion reactions happening, meaning, that I don't 
believe that two deuterons are joining together gently out of some coulomb 
shielding.  I did not say, I didn't believe that nuclear reactions are 
taking place in CF experiments........see the difference.

I am not questioning the experimental observations.........only the 
interpretation that the observations are the result of anything, cold.




> >
> >
> > >some of the studies referenced on my web site at
> > >http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.  If you want to believe that
> > >nuclear reactions are not involved, you will have to show why these many
> > >observations are false and how so much energy can be generated by other
> > >means.  On the other hand, you can just make the bold statement and 
> look like
> > >a fool (no offense).
> >
> > I don't look like a fool except to those that fail to read what I wrote,
> > and I certainly look like no fool to you.  You are in total agreement from
> > your statement that some form of intense nuclear reactions are taking
> > place.  That, is my point.  Hence, trash the stupid name, "cold fusion",
> > and perhaps funding will begin rolling in.  Unfortunately, the water is so
> > tainted by now that a rose by any other name will smell as bad to main
> > stream scientists who haven't read the data.
>
>Sorry to have gotten personal.  I'm afraid my patience is getting too thin.
>Nevertheless, we agree that no matter what we call "cold fusion", the 
>attitude of
>general science will not change.  Therefore, changing the name is a non-issue.

Not necessarily, but in general yes.  The way to change the opinions would 
be first to change the name.  Second, publicize only those papers in this 
new category that have hard, repeatable evidence from reputable, peer 
reviewed sources.  And put in many of the observations of MeV particles 
coming out of deuteron beams striking foils and the like, Lipson's work on 
20 sigma neutron observations, other He observations which include blank 
runs of blank foils or wires, etc.  Then with the evidence combined with a 
new name for the field of research, progress could be made.

And yes, you do take things personal and that rings out clearly in your 
papers.  The problem is, you sound like a crank, and it is assumed that 
cranks don't know what they are talking about.  You do damage to the 
industry when you vent.  And you do great good to the industry when you 
document the facts.  So you should work on biting your tongue, and making 
certain you read things twice to take out the complaining aspects and 
instead, march confidently forward with words that simply assume that this 
work is going to succeed.

In the end, assuming that this isn't the biggest assembly of bogus 
experiments ever put together, this field will succeed you know.  Nature 
always allows truth to win in the end.




> >
> >
> > I am not who you need to convince.  My sole point is, I don't believe that
> > some magical, low temp phenomena is happening where nuclei magically drop
> > their coulomb repulsion and decide to join together just because their
> > density was decreased by half or some such.  There are so many ways that
> > intense, energetic, lattice tearing, cavity slamming, nuclear bashing
> > phenomena can take place inside of solid materials that clearly one should
> > expect that nuclear reactions are possible.
>
>Here is were reasonable men can differ.  While you can not believe such a 
>magical
>mechanism occurs, there are many people who have good reason to accept 
>such a low
>temperature mechanism.  We will just have to wait and see who is correct.

That is fine.  But keep those men writing in the CF journals, and allow the 
others that explore concepts closer to main stream, exploring lattice 
fractures, resonances, and other energetic mechanisms to post papers into 
the new field of study.  Anyone in the field of CF will read both areas and 
know they are related, but anyone outside will consider CF bogus and this 
new field legitimate.  Aside from this, it will take a major 
success........ie, build a CF power generator that works long term, over 
and over, and which demonstrates the reactants, products, etc. every time.






> >
> >
> > I am not the enemy.  I am just trying to point out that the banners under
> > which the crusade is being advanced is not a good sounding one, and that it
> > does not accurately reflect the many energetic phenomena that one could
> > consider might be responsible.  CF and LENR are both horrible names to use.
>
>While I agree with your point, these names are accepted by everyone to 
>describe
>the phenomenon.  Another name would create confusion.  As we agree, just 
>changing
>the name would have no effect on the future of the field.

Well, with the caveat above, I don't agree.  LENR was an excellent idea, 
but it simply used a poor word choice.........low energy.   Novel Micro 
Nuclear Reactions might be another name.  Or Lattice Nuclear Reactions yet 
another.

LENR ought to be used for all of the weird theories that propose that the 
energy of reaction is low, and some new name should be applied to others, 
and CF should be dropped.

My opinion only.............and it is only based on the field wanting to 
increase funding levels over the coming years.  Note that it is possible to 
get funding if you are in pursuit of high energy nuclear reactions, even if 
your device is contrary to a design that most scientists would agree could 
produce power, and even before it has produced any power.  So you can take 
the advice or not, that is up to you guys.  I recognize it isn't easy 
advice to impliment, but it could be done if everyone wanted to increase 
the funding at least to the high energy versions of the CF realm.

And, you could increase funding to many of the other forms if you simply 
identified some plausible high energy mechanism, even if you didn't think 
that was what was going on.  For example, in a PF cell we know you have 
high pressures and cavitation going on.  We know cavitation produces 
extreme conditions.  we know that lattice quakes can occur.  So, if you put 
a device together that proposes to take advantage of these high energy 
mechanisms in a superior fashion, then, you should be able to get funding.

Look at Mills, he did it and didn't even have a high energy mechanism, but 
he did steer way clear of the CF baggage.  Look at IDI, we are doing 
something that is clearly hot fusion.....our goal that is, and we have 
succeeded at attracting interest, and some money.

Holding on to the CF name is holding back R&D funding.  That much is clear 
to everyone.  So, face the piper and change to get out of the way of Park's 
arrows, or, enjoy being a pin cushion.

rt



NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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>
>
> > In my mind, CF really is doing something, but it is doing it near the
> > surface of the materials, and as a result, it burns out through the
> > materials and will never become a commercially viable source of
> > energy.  The process destroys the reactor.
>
>We agree that the process occurs near the surface.  However, no evidence 
>exists
>that the process destroys the reactor.  Isolated regions are found to be 
>destroyed
>but this is rare.  It appears that the active regions heat up, lose deuterium,
>turn off, cool, absorb deuterium, then heat up again.  This cycle can continue
>indefinitely.

No it can't.  If you look at the surface, it is covered with tiny 
volcanos.  These have destroyed the lattice structure underneath and 
changed the nature of the surface.  It may be that the device could then 
take D into deeper regions, but again, the surface at deeper depths becomes 
damaged and can't any longer support the reactions.  By the time you try to 
put that into service to produce power for months, you have a 
problem.........just as PF found out over in France......though I know that 
is a long story we can avoid here.

Point being, if a customer has to change out electrolytes and fuel on a 
regular basis, they are going to avoid purchasing such a device unless it 
has a several year life between change outs.




> >
> >
> > Also, you mentioned alpha emitters.  Most nuclei, a ways above iron, are
> > exothermic when they undergo alpha spallation (I haven't checked nuclei
> > right next to iron, but if you get a ways up the chart, then all nuclei are
> > exothermic to alpha.)
>
>Yes, but isotopes are found that are below iron and can not emit alpha.  In
>addition, the measured energy is too high to be explained by alpha emission.
>Nevertheless, I agree that occasional alpha emission might be produced 
>under some
>conditions.

All atoms above helium can emit an alpha particle.  The question is whether 
it would be exo or endo thermic.

My point, however, is not to even attempt to explain what reaction is 
taking place.  Most likely there are many and not just one.  My point is, 
rather, to point out that there are LOTS of nuclear reaction paths that are 
not being considered, and which are energeticly driven rather than 
considered to be a bogus CF concept............put again.........there are 
many paths that nuclear physicists would listen to you tell them about, 
whereas there are few physicists that will take five minutes to listen to a 
CF explanation.

why fight the trend.  Funding needs to be received to do the work, and much 
of the work can easily be fashioned as novel high energy lattice motion 
induced nuclear events.

rt

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Universal Traslator
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:47:12 -0700
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Jed Wrote:


> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>
> >A bit of explanation is useful. I'll be short, as this if off-topic. The
> >elementary actions of neurons have been studied extensively. Basically,
> >nerve cells interconnect with others through junctions called synapses at
> >which chemical interactions take place. Some act to stimulate, others to
> >inhibit. . . .
>
> Yes, I realize this, but has it been firmly established that this happens,
> and this is the actual, physical basis of memory and thinking? No doubt
> this is an important part of brain function, but the last time I read
about
> this subject, 20 years ago, rival theories put memory and cogitation at
> deeper levels within the cell. There do not seem to be enough cells to
hold
> all of the memories people retain.

One has to separate memory from thinking. To my knowledge nobody but nobody
has come up with a satisfactory theory for the phenomenon of memory. The
same guesses keep coming up in different guises. I think in many cases one
could suppose that our memory of, say, childhood is patchy with
interpolations as if by some kind of data compression system that plugs in,
say, a bedroom background for actions, but not every frame in time of the
bedroom. MPEG-2 compression used in DVDs does this. Then there are those
with eidetic memory that get full visualization, but perhaps not for all
time.

One test was a pair of grids with random squares. They were presented to
left and right eyes separately. the subject was then asked to do a stereo
fusion of the separate images with his eidetic recall. He was able to see a
depressed area ("Magic Eye" style) not visible individually. The article had
no data about if the fusion were delayed by a day if the depression would
still be visible.

Various brain imaging techniques can associate areas of the brain with
certain kinds of activities. With biofeedback, people can learn to control
individual muscle fibers and presumably much else. These do not answer the
questions about Mind and Memory as we ordinarily experience them.

Neural networks are nonlinear and re-entrant. Linear logic based on verbal
thought cannot cope with this. I don't know when, if ever, it will.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 13:51:17 2001
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Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> >It seems that the Solar insolation of  ~ 50 watts/meter^2 of UV/X-ray of
> >energy
> >greater than 4.88 eV
>
> ***{That is a mere 7.81x10^-19 joules. --MJ}***

That is  for a 4.88 ev  photon. Photon energy  E = hc/lambda.  A 1.0 Mev gamma/x-ray
photon has a mere 1.6x 10^-13 joules. 50 watt-second = 50 joules.

The Solar insolation of 50 watts/meter^ 2 of UV/X-ray photons over the Mars disk of
3.63x10^13 meters is 1.816x10^15 joules/sec or 5.73x10^22 joules/year.
>
> >can dissociate the O2, N2, CO2, and H2O molecules of the Mars
> >atmosphere and give them enough kinetic energy to exceed the Martian escape
velocity of 5.0E3 meters/second
>
> Bottom line: your escape velocity of 5.0E3 m/sec looks OK.
>
> >
> >m = E/[0.5*(5.0E3)^2]
> >
> >where E is the photon energy in joules.
> >
> >Or, A = m/1.66E-27 gives the atomic or molecular weight
> >of atoms or molecules that can be accelerated to escape
> >velocity by UV/X-ray interaction at a given energy.
> >
> >Small wonder that the Martian atmosphere is very tenuous (4 to 6 Torr at
> >the surface)
> >after a few billion years, with CO2 (A = 44) being the predominant
> >atmospheric
> >molecule.
>
> ***{If it were that simple, Earth and Venus would have lost all their water
> by now.

Not so. The escape velocity for the Earth and Venus is over 1.1x10^4 meters/second so
for a 6.0 ev photon:

m = 9.6x10^-19/[(0.5*1.1x10^4)2] = 1.53x10^-26 kg

then  atomic or molecular weight "A" = m/1.66x10^-27 = 9.558 which could be  hydrogen
or helium lost due to 6.0 ev UV-C photons from the Earth or Venus by this mechanism.
For a 6.0 ev photon on Mars "A" would 37.78 allowing atoms or molecules under that
weight
to reach escape velocity and deplete the atmosphere.
> As I noted the other day, a strong case can be
> made that Mars is experiencing an infall of small comets equivalent to a
> global rainfall of 1 inch (2.54 cm) every 20,000 years. (See
> http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/.) That calculates out to 3.68x10^18
> gms, or 9.77x10^14 gallons of H2O. Since that number didn't seem to get
> your attention, let me see if I can put it in a form that will.
>
> To begin, note that a cubic mile of water has a mass of
> (5280)^3(12)^3(2.54)^3 = 4.17x10^15 grams. Thus by the small comet theory
> the amount of water infalling onto Mars every 20,000 years is about
> 3.68x10^18/4.17x10^15 = 882 cubic miles. That is a hell of a lot of water,
> Fred--about 1/7th the mass of the entire Martian atmosphere.

Okay, now subtract the molecules lost by the Solar UV/X-ray flux.

>
> There are also lots of concrete examples which demonstrate that the infall
> must be considered:
>
> (1) Pluto, with a radius of 1.16x10^8 cm and a mass of 1.19x10^25 gms, has
> an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
> [2(6.67x10^-8)(1.19x10^25)/(1.16x10^8)]^.5 = 1.17x10^5 cm/sec, and has been
> determined to have a substantial atmosphere consisting mostly of methane.

Sure. But you didn't calculate the 0.85 watts/meter^2 Solar Insolation on Pluto at
39.5 AU.   :-)
>
> (2) Saturn's moon Titan, with a radius of 2.58x10^8 cm and a mass of
> 1.34x10^26 gms, has an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
> [2(6.67x10^-8)(1.34x10^26)/(2.58x10^8)]^.5 =  2.63x10^5 cm/sec, and has a
> substantial nitrogen atmosphere.
.

Same point, 8.0 AU Saturn-Mars separation reduces the 50 watts/meter^2 Solar UV/X-ray
on Mars to 0.8
watts/meter^2 on Titan.
>
> (3)  Neptune's moon Triton, with a radius of 1.75x10^8 cm and a mass of
> 1.32x10^26 gms, has an escape velocity of V = (2GM/r)^.5 =
> [2(6.67x10^-8)(1.32x10^26)/(1.75x10^8)]^.5 = 3.17x10^5 cm/sec, and a
> substantial nitrogen atmosphere.

Yep. And with 28.5 AU separation the UV/X-ray flux is down to 62 milliwatts/meter^2.
>
> Each of the above examples involves escape velocities that are much less
> than that of Mars, and yet, despite that, the atmospheres are much larger.

Yes, and colder.

> What this suggests is that loss of gases to space frequently does not reach
> equilibrium with the infall of gases *from* space, until a thick atmosphere
> exists.

Maybe so. There are some schools that think the Earth's atmosphere-hydrosphere was in
place before the Sun was at it's full/present brightness

Regards,   Frederick
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >Regards,   Frederick
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
> protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
> opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 14:03:38 2001
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Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:37:27 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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Ross Tessien wrote:

>. . . If you look at the surface, it is covered with tiny volcanos.  These 
>have destroyed the lattice structure underneath and changed the nature of 
>the surface.  It may be that the device could then take D into deeper 
>regions, but again, the surface at deeper depths becomes damaged and can't 
>any longer support the reactions.  By the time you try to put that into 
>service to produce power for months, you have a problem.........just as PF 
>found out over in France......though I know that is a long story we can 
>avoid here.

Where did you hear this, Ross? They never mentioned anything about 
prohibitive damage that I recall. There is some damage to the material, of 
course. With today's techniques, with a Ti or W glow discharge cathode, the 
damage is too rapid and extensive for practical use, but Pd, Ni or even Au 
cathodes would be cost effective. They degrade slowly and produce many 
megajoules per gram. Most of the material from used cathodes could be 
recovered with reprocessing, and some of the metal transmutation products 
might be worth more than the original cathode material. The economics are 
no worse than with U fission fuel. Counting only fuel costs, U fission is a 
cheap way to produce electricity.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 15:21:21 2001
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Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.

Jed wrote:
>
> Where did you hear this, Ross? They never mentioned anything about
> prohibitive damage that I recall. There is some damage to the material, of
> course. With today's techniques, with a Ti or W glow discharge cathode, the
> damage is too rapid and extensive for practical use, but Pd, Ni or even Au
> cathodes would be cost effective.

Why don't you try my suggestion and use a H2O or D2O cathode in a discharge mode? They
are self-healing and cheaper than Pd, Ni or even Au.

Furthermore the anode isn't eroded away either, and the water cathode pool acts as a
ballast resistor thus joule heating is confined to the pool instead of being lost
externally.

Regards,   Frederick



> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 15:21:34 2001
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From: Ross Tessien <rtessien impulsedevices.com>
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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Hopefully this is the case and I am incorrect.  The thing is that no one to 
my knowledge has constructed a device that accomplishes those release of 
energy values over extended, .........read that to say, "commercially 
viable"........ periods of time.  If anyone were doing that then they 
should have by now connected them to a thermo pile, or some other energy 
conversion system, perhaps in the North East during winter for a better E 
conversion effect, to demonstrate a net power generation scheme that could 
charge a battery that was providing the power to run it.

Even if such a device only charged the battery in one out of a hundred 
times, you could make a case with that sort of device.  Do a bunch of 
experiments and when you get one that starts releasing a lot of energy, 
hook in the thermal energy conversion system.

Since this hasn't been done, what you are speaking of must be the rate of 
energy released over a short period, calculated as though it were to be 
released over a long period.  It doesn't cost that much to put a power 
conversion scheme in place, ready for use when the cell generates over unity.

But this is out of my realm so perhaps not fruitful to pursue.

rt


At 04:37 PM 4/5/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>>. . . If you look at the surface, it is covered with tiny 
>>volcanos.  These have destroyed the lattice structure underneath and 
>>changed the nature of the surface.  It may be that the device could then 
>>take D into deeper regions, but again, the surface at deeper depths 
>>becomes damaged and can't any longer support the reactions.  By the time 
>>you try to put that into service to produce power for months, you have a 
>>problem.........just as PF found out over in France......though I know 
>>that is a long story we can avoid here.
>
>Where did you hear this, Ross? They never mentioned anything about 
>prohibitive damage that I recall. There is some damage to the material, of 
>course. With today's techniques, with a Ti or W glow discharge cathode, 
>the damage is too rapid and extensive for practical use, but Pd, Ni or 
>even Au cathodes would be cost effective. They degrade slowly and produce 
>many megajoules per gram. Most of the material from used cathodes could be 
>recovered with reprocessing, and some of the metal transmutation products 
>might be worth more than the original cathode material. The economics are 
>no worse than with U fission fuel. Counting only fuel costs, U fission is 
>a cheap way to produce electricity.
>
>- Jed
>

NOTE my new Email address: rtessien impulsedevices.com

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Regarding damage to cathodes, Ross Tessien wrote:

>Hopefully this is the case and I am incorrect.  The thing is that no one 
>to my knowledge has constructed a device that accomplishes those release 
>of energy values over extended, .........read that to say, "commercially 
>viable"........ periods of time.

That is correct, but it is easy to extrapolate. As far as I know, the 
destruction has never measurably degraded heat production from either a 
thin film or solid cathode, even though some have produced hundreds of 
megajoules, and in some thin films roughly half of the metal has been 
transmuted. Both solid and thin film produce enough energy per gram of 
material to be commercially viable, assuming fabrication costs are about 
the same as other thin film gadgets such as computer or photovoltaic chips.

The problem is to control the reaction and then scale it up. The damage 
does not appear to be limiting factor. Actually, if they can fine-tune the 
reaction, someday the "damage" may prove to be most valuable part of the CF 
effect. People may generate gigawatts of CF heat and throw it away in order 
to harvest the transmuted elements. Today we struggle to enhance the heat. 
Someday, the biggest challenge may be to reduce the heat and increase the 
transmutation damage.

For that matter, sooner or later someone will want a CF reaction that 
produces copious penetrating radiation or neutrons. To us, the best thing 
about CF is that it does NOT produce radiation, but eventually someone will 
want to tweak it so it does.

- Jed

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Attn: Mitchell Jones

 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/04/mars.water/index.html?s=8

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Solar and Earth Radiation

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<BASE HREF=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/">=0A=
<head>=0A=
=0A=
<title>Solar and Earth Radiation</title>=0A=
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<frameset COLS=3D"180,*">=0A=
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=0A=
<h2>A. Here are some introductory discussions and illustrations of =0A=
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<ol>=0A=
<li>=0A=
<a =
href=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/SunAndEarth.html"=
>=0A=
Total Watts</a>=0A=
<li>=0A=
<a =
href=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/RadiativeBalance.=
html">=0A=
Earth's Balance</a>=0A=
<li>=0A=
<a href=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/NoCloud.html">=0A=
Clouds</a>=0A=
</ol>=0A=
=0A=
<h2>B. Here are more detailed Solar <i>spectral</i> plots:</h2>=0A=
<ol>=0A=
<li>=0A=
<a =
href=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/SolarIrr.html">=0A=
Solar Irradiance</a>=0A=
<li>=0A=
<a =
href=3D"http://climate.gsfc.nasa.gov/~cahalan/Radiation/SolarIrrVblackbod=
y.html">=0A=
Solar vs Blackbody</a>=0A=
</ol>=0A=
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<h2> C. Finally, you may download this Mathematica Notebook:</h2>=0A=
<ul>=0A=
<li>=0A=
It is a compressed tar file containing a Mathematica 2.2=0A=
notebook which reads and plots the solar irradiance data,=0A=
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also determines the effective Earth black-body spectrum=0A=
needed to balance the solar radiation absorbed by the=0A=
Earth-atmosphere system.=0A=
<center><a =
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<hr>=0A=
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 18:13:13 2001
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Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:38:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Progress at Impulse Devices, Inc.
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At 12:37 PM 4/5/1, Ross Tessien wrote:

>I know all this.  But "Chemically Assisted........"   is another problem
>name.  Chemical and Nuclear are two different reaction regimes separated by
>a million fold energy differential.  There is no way any nuclear scientist
>would accept or embrace any process that alluded to the possibility that
>his prized high energy processes were in any way related to the lower class
>study of chemical reactions.  You must play to the likes, dislikes, and pre
>conceptions of the status quo and come up with a name that appeals, or at a
>minimum isn't objectionable to, the majority of scientists.


You only have to "play to" your audience if you are conning them.  Playing
to an audience demonstrates a very unscientific attitude that is anathama
to the typical scientist.

I think you should read the literature.  You might then have a clue that
the Chubb and Chubb models only apply to fusion, and fusion in a fairly
large matrix at that.  There is no way an ordinary alpha producing fission
carrying MeV energy is going to go undetected, because of Brehmsstrahlunhg
if not direct alpha detection.  Very low energy alphas and other LENR
byproducts are just as much a scientific curiosity as cold fusion, and
these nucleus changing reactions are by no stretch of anyones imagination
NOT NUCLEAR.  Cold fission is just as curious and unacceptable as cold
fusion.

It is truly amazing to hear someone who, to my knowledge, has never put
forth a quantitaitve theoretical model or significant expermimental report
in the field, and who does not "need to read the literature" argue with
such extreme conviction with the like of Ed Storms.  When you say to Ed
Storms "you sound like a crank" for using terms as commonly defined, my
thoughts are that perhaps there IS crank around.

If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and talks like a duck, it must
be a duck.  Quack, quack, quack, quack, quaaaaaaaaak!    8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 19:35:41 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "jlsparber" <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: H2/D2 Filled Mercury Pool Rectifier LENR Devices?
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:21:18 -0500
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All of this talk about destruction of the W cathodes in
the Mizuno-Ohmori experiments, and the Pd, Ni, and Au
in the Electrolysis Cells gives one pause to wonder if
the standard (but now obsolete) Mercury Pool Rectifiers
with a low pressure H2 or D2 fill would work as good as
or better than the Mizuno-Ohmori discharge devices,etc.

One could even use a small amount of H2O or D2O, and
Lithium, Potassium, or Strontium metals or Carbonates in them.

Or, the water pool cathode in a stainles steel tank with the salts dissolved in it
might do just as well since the water
probably has Light Leptons (LL-) in it, or it can be spiked with them to increase the
OU yield by orders of magnitude. I Hope.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 20:20:54 2001
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Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:16:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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OK Fred, one more time:  you have claimed that the loss of water due to UV
and X-ray dissociation in the Martian ionosphere accounts for the desert
conditions on Mars.

However:

(1) I have given you evidence suggesting that Mars receives an infall of
almost 900 cubic miles of water from space every 20,000 years.

(2) You have given me exactly zero, zip, nada, nichevo, evidence that the
loss of water due to dissociation is greater than 900 cubic miles every
20,000 years.

Result: your "explanation" for the desert conditions on Mars, in reality,
explains nothing. You need a quantitive argument that satisfies (2), above,
in order to do so.

Let me put it to you directly: in 20,000 years, approximately how many
cubic miles of water are lost from Mars due to ionospheric dissociation?

If you can't supply such a calculation, then other explanations for the
desert conditions remain on the table, including the possibility that Mars
is sweeping up space dust containing the dehydrated forms of various
minerals at such a rate that it is sequestering more than 900 cubic miles
of water as hydrates every 20,000 years. In other words, even if the water
infall rate exceeds the ionospheric loss rate, Mars will still be a desert,
if the water sequestration rate exceeds the difference between them.

--Mitchell Jones


________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?

You can't deplete what was NEVER THERE, Mitchell.

The gravitational heating/volcanic activity blew away what little water was there in
the first place.

FJS


> OK Fred, one more time:  you have claimed that the loss of water due to UV
> and X-ray dissociation in the Martian ionosphere accounts for the desert
> conditions on Mars.
>
> However:
>
> (1) I have given you evidence suggesting that Mars receives an infall of
> almost 900 cubic miles of water from space every 20,000 years.
>
> (2) You have given me exactly zero, zip, nada, nichevo, evidence that the
> loss of water due to dissociation is greater than 900 cubic miles every
> 20,000 years.
>
> Result: your "explanation" for the desert conditions on Mars, in reality,
> explains nothing. You need a quantitive argument that satisfies (2), above,
> in order to do so.
>
> Let me put it to you directly: in 20,000 years, approximately how many
> cubic miles of water are lost from Mars due to ionospheric dissociation?
>
> If you can't supply such a calculation, then other explanations for the
> desert conditions remain on the table, including the possibility that Mars
> is sweeping up space dust containing the dehydrated forms of various
> minerals at such a rate that it is sequestering more than 900 cubic miles
> of water as hydrates every 20,000 years. In other words, even if the water
> infall rate exceeds the ionospheric loss rate, Mars will still be a desert,
> if the water sequestration rate exceeds the difference between them.
>
> --Mitchell Jones
>
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
> protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
> opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 20:55:27 2001
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Nice Pix.

 http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/mercarc.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 21:33:18 2001
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Message-Id: <200104060432.AAA21842 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Stringham device at IE
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:26:43 -0400
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Scott,

>In the latest issue of IE (#36, Vol 6, 2001) there's a report (p. 18) of 
>confirmation of Stringham's excess heat results from a copy of his 
>sonofusion device being tested at the NERL lab by Ken Rauen.
>
>Gene, Ken, et al:
>
>The article mentions a result of 7.5 watts heat output for 5 watts 
>electrical input. The 5 watt electrical input is apparently obtained by 
>taking the difference between the total electrical input measured by a 
>line-voltage wattmeter and the calorimetrically measured heat dissipated by 
>the oscillator electronics.
>
>For that particular run, what was the total line-voltage electrical input

You'll have to wait for Ken to answer that early next week. I'm busy and 
he's visiting relatives.

I think the line voltage into the oscillator electronics was around 120V.

Also, our techniques have progressed considerably. Using Seebeck now for 
reactor.  Please be patient.

Gene
>
>TIA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 22:35:43 2001
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 <v04011700b6f2df301c64 [207.8.127.117]>
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:32:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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Fred Sparber wrote:

>You can't deplete what was NEVER THERE, Mitchell.
>
>The gravitational heating/volcanic activity blew away what little water
>was there in
>the first place.

***{That's just another unsupported assertion, and as such is
non-responsive. Therefore, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
--MJ}***

>
>FJS
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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What I would use in place of Mizuno-Ohmori device.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 07:59:56 2001
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Message-ID: <3ACDDA35.F1FF5AD3 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:01:09 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Van Flandern Mars Presentation
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On April 5th, Tom Van Flandern gave a presentation at the
National Press Club on possible artifical structures on Mars. 
Here are the slides from that presentation:

http://www.metaresearch.org/asom/artifact_html/default.htm

Enjoy!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 08:20:09 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stringham device at IE
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

 >Gene, Ken, et al:
> >
> >The article mentions a result of 7.5 watts heat output for 5 watts
> >electrical input. The 5 watt electrical input is apparently obtained by
> >taking the difference between the total electrical input measured by a
> >line-voltage wattmeter and the calorimetrically measured heat dissipated by
> >the oscillator electronics.
> >
> >For that particular run, what was the total line-voltage electrical input
>
>You'll have to wait for Ken to answer that early next week. I'm busy and
>he's visiting relatives.
>
>I think the line voltage into the oscillator electronics was around 120V.
>
>Also, our techniques have progressed considerably. Using Seebeck now for
>reactor.  Please be patient.

Plus we have an engineer working on a device to measure the oscillator 
electronics output directly, rather than by air calorimetry. This should be 
more accurate and reliable. Ken will describe the details.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 09:55:32 2001
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Subject: Re: radioactive tumbleweeds 
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:51:42 -0500
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 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/04/06/radioactive.tumbleweeds.ap/index.html?s=8

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Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 13:20:04 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Van Flandern Mars Presentation
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>On April 5th, Tom Van Flandern gave a presentation at the
>National Press Club on possible artifical structures on Mars.
>Here are the slides from that presentation:
>
>http://www.metaresearch.org/asom/artifact_html/default.htm
>
>Enjoy!
>
>Terry

***{Here are my comments about the Van Flandern presentation:

(1) The famous "face" (frame 3) strikes me as *obviously* of natural
origin. The reason: I can go outside on any day when there are lots of
small fluffy clouds floating around, and before long I will see one with a
better "face" than the Cydonia image. The implication: random rearrangement
of aggregated material will, in a noticeable percentage of cases, produce
images that the human mind perceives as a face. Since the surface of Mars
contains 145 million square kilometers of randomly arranged aggregated
material, what is surprising about the Cydonia image?

(2) In image 12, Van Flandern quotes Steven Goldberg as follows:

"The consequences of a claim that something is true are entirely irrelevant
to the issue of whether the claim is true."

The truth of the above statement depends on the types of consequences
Goldberg had in mind. For example, using the method of indirect proof, we
can assume a claim to be true,  examine the deductive implications of that
assumption, and if the consequence is a contradiction with something
previously known to be true, then we can conclude that the claim is false.
In other words, the *logical* consequences of a claim that something is
true are very relevant to the issue of whether the claim is true.

On the other hand, the *interpersonal* consequences of a claim that
something is true--i.e., whether your "significant others" will get bent
out of shape about it--are "entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether the
claim is true."

(3) I see nothing surprising about the "embedded triangles" of Cydonia
(image 14), either. Break a window, and you will see lots of triangles in
the shards that result, and an upwelling of dense magma from beneath a thin
section of lighter, silicaceous crustal material  can be expected to
produce vast triangles of such material floating on the magma. If the magma
solidifies before the floating crustal blocks have melted and lost their
shapes, something very similar to the embedded triangles of Cydonia will be
the result.

(4) The "striped feature" (image 16) is obviously dunes, and the
"reflection" above it is obviously just more dunes.

(5) Image 17 looks like an artificial structure of some sort, but it could
be a trick of the lighting. I would like to see other images from different
angles or, ideally, go there and examine the damn thing.

(6) Image 20 and 21 show obvious evidence of life on Mars. This is the
stuff we discussed here long ago, under the heading "Dalmatian Dunes."

(7) Image 22 shows wind-blown dunes running along a couple of dry washes,
though one of them is surprisingly linear.

(8) Image 23, also discussed here previously, contains more wind-blown
dunes in a dry wash.

(9) Images 31-33 are probably some form of gigantic, water hoarding plant
life, as discussed here in the past.

(10) Images 34-45 strike me as random arrangements of geological material,
not depictions of animals or people.

(11) In the case of image 46, the question is where the light source (the
sun) is located relative to the image. If it is coming in at a 45 degree
angle from the upper left of the photo, as seems likely, then we may be
looking at a sparse stand of gigantic water-conserving plants, perhaps
similar to saguaro cacti here on Earth, but vastly larger and apparently
lacking side appendages. These objects are casting shadows toward the lower
right side of the screen.

On the other hand, if the light source is from the right side of the
picture, then we are looking at an array of approximately rectangular,
eroded crustal features. However, the polar orbiter, obviously, is in a
polar orbit. Thus the sun angle cannot be from the right: the linear tracks
of these photos always run in a north-south direction. Thus we may be
seeing a stand of huge cacti in this photo.

(12) Image 47 seems to have been cropped out of a larger image, and appears
to show another array of immense, water conserving plants, which are
casting shadows toward the lower left side of the screen.

(13) In my view, the rest of the photos show mere random features.

So there you have it!

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 13:55:40 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Water-Cooled H2/D2 Filled Ignitron for OU Experiments
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This is a made to order device for a variation of the Mizuno-Ohmori experiments. Just
add the H2 or D2 or H2O/D2O. and use the water-cooling loop for calorimetry.

 http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/bk42.html

Scott could probably crank one of these out in a couple of days.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 14:28:49 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 06, 2001
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:17:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 06 Apr 01   Washington, DC

1. BUDGET I: "NO SCIENCE, NO SURPLUS."  Within Republican ranks
supporters of a strong science program have been speaking up, and
it seems the President is listening.  First came a widely quoted
New York Times op-ed by Allan Bromley, "Science and Surpluses"
(WN 09 Mar 01).  Bromley observed that the estimated $5.6
trillion surplus over a decade, which is supposed to bankroll the
Bush program, must come from scientific innovation.  "No science,
no surplus," Bromley declared, "It's that simple."  Yesterday,
Bromley's line was quoted in an editorial in the widely-read
Capital Hill newspaper, "Roll Call."  Meanwhile, a letter to Rep.
Young, chair of the House Appropriations Committee, signed by
both Republican and Democratic members, urged that science
agencies, and the NSF in particular, be given high priority in
the budget, putting them back on the doubling track.  The House
Science Committee expressed concern about the "minuscule" budget
increase for NSF in its Views and Estimates report.  The report
was signed by all but three of the Republicans on the Committee.

2. BUDGET II: BOND AMENDMENT PASSES SENATE ON A VOICE VOTE.  How
widespread is congressional sentiment favoring an increase in the
nation's investment in science?  Last night, on a voice vote, the
Senate passed the Bond-Mikulski amendment, boosting the General
Science Account in the President's budget request by $1.44B. 
Compared to 2001 enacted levels, this amendment adds $469M to
DOE's science account, $674M to NSF and $518M to NASA.

3. BUDGET III: PRESIDENT BUSH SHOWS HE'S PAYING ATTENTION.  Until
now, any interest of the President in science has been carefully
concealed.  And on Monday, when he releases his final budget
request, his direct involvement in the budget comes to an end.  
So what's he going to do when, in an evenly divided Congress, the
leadership of his own party and most Democrats agree on funding
for science?  Redefine his position.  Yesterday, in remarks 
before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, Bush devoted a
single brief paragraph to research.  He said his budget would
finish the job of doubling medical research at NIH by 2003.  Then
he added, "Basic research gets big increases too."  He gets an A.

4. SPACE: HOUSE SCIENCE COMMITTEE LOOKS AT "THE VISION THING."  
On Tuesday, in a hearing entitled "Vision 2001: Future Space,"
the Committee explored "visionary concepts of America's future in
space.  Witnesses were asked to examine issues as far-ranging as
space travel and the potential of science fiction fantasies to
become reality.  They were encouraged to let their imaginations
roam."  Wednesdays hearing, was "Space Station Overruns."  In
this look into the future, witnesses reviewed, "the causes of
cost growth, risks associated with reliance on international
partners, the re-prioritization of planned science, and actions
NASA is taking to address these issues.  

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 16:19:18 2001
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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 18:17:55 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Water-Cooled H2/D2 Filled Ignitron for OU Experiments
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At 02:50 PM 4/6/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>This is a made to order device for a variation of the Mizuno-Ohmori 
>experiments. Just
>add the H2 or D2 or H2O/D2O. and use the water-cooling loop for calorimetry.
>
>  http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/bk42.html
>
>Scott could probably crank one of these out in a couple of days.  :-)

We have an ignitron tube here.  I've often considered running it in a 
calorimeter, but something's always gotten in the way...


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 21:35:24 2001
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Has anybody ever heard about this element? 
http://www.boblazar.com/protected/element.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 22:32:34 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: H2/D2 Filled Mercury Pool Rectifier LENR Devices?
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 15:28:09 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:21:18
-0500:

>All of this talk about destruction of the W cathodes in
>the Mizuno-Ohmori experiments, and the Pd, Ni, and Au
>in the Electrolysis Cells gives one pause to wonder if
>the standard (but now obsolete) Mercury Pool Rectifiers
>with a low pressure H2 or D2 fill would work as good as
>or better than the Mizuno-Ohmori discharge devices,etc.
[snip]
Well they do create a lot of heat and need serious cooling. I wonder if
anyone ever bothered to determine if the heat was anomalous or not?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 22:43:10 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 15:38:26 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:16:38 -0500:

>OK Fred, one more time:  you have claimed that the loss of water due to UV
>and X-ray dissociation in the Martian ionosphere accounts for the desert
>conditions on Mars.
>
>However:
>
>(1) I have given you evidence suggesting that Mars receives an infall of
>almost 900 cubic miles of water from space every 20,000 years.
[snip]
Hi Mitchell,

You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 00:46:23 2001
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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 02:44:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:16:38 -0500:
>
>>OK Fred, one more time:  you have claimed that the loss of water due to UV
>>and X-ray dissociation in the Martian ionosphere accounts for the desert
>>conditions on Mars.
>>
>>However:
>>
>>(1) I have given you evidence suggesting that Mars receives an infall of
>>almost 900 cubic miles of water from space every 20,000 years.
>[snip]
>Hi Mitchell,
>
>You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
>based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
>The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
>comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.

***{Either that, or cows jumping over the moon. :-) --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 02:57:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: H2/D2 Filled Mercury Pool Rectifier LENR Devices?
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>In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:21:18
>-0500:
>
>>All of this talk about destruction of the W cathodes in
>>the Mizuno-Ohmori experiments, and the Pd, Ni, and Au
>>in the Electrolysis Cells gives one pause to wonder if
>>the standard (but now obsolete) Mercury Pool Rectifiers
>>with a low pressure H2 or D2 fill would work as good as
>>or better than the Mizuno-Ohmori discharge devices,etc.
>[snip]
>Well they do create a lot of heat and need serious cooling. I wonder if
>anyone ever bothered to determine if the heat was anomalous or not?

***{I doubt that the fill gas was H2 or D2 in the standard mercury vapor
rectifiers, since that would introduce the danger of an explosion. What
Fred appears to be proposing here is a rerun of the Sternglass experiment,
but with a mercury vapor cathode instead of tungsten. Frankly, I think it
might work. As I pointed out a month or so ago when we were discussing the
Sternglass experiment, it was replicated, and a lot of mainstream
physicists--including Einstein--considered the neutron production to be
anomalous. Unfortunately, it appears that his dissertation supervisors at
the time forced him to drop that line of work. Apparently physicists in the
50's were no more interested in stressing the conventional paradigm than
they are today. --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 01:42:20 2001
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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 01:41:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Norris Axial Magnetic Roller Design
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I am glad to tell the folks out there in free energy
land that the Tesla Electric Co was finally come up
with a design that sounds like a winner. It is a core
involving reluctances that can vary with 4 field
coils. It is also a project on back burner that can be
explored by more investments, should the flux
capacitors fail. The DC embodiment of this invention
is far more simpler so that the common folk can
comprehend how a axial magnetic line rotation can be
produced. The only problem there is that the overunity
aspects are limited to energy gained by spark gap
field collapse, and not the gain made by energy
transfer from AC resonance vs resistive losses. Both
the AC Flux Capacitors and the below mentioned DC
embodiment will use the same parts, where all the
parts for the AC version have now arrivwed for
assembly/pending technical and design problems. The DC
embodiment of enclosing the loop would make for
drastic design problems applied to AC, but in turn
will make the flux capacitor principle valid for lower
input frequecies closer to 60 hz, or this is the
speculation, as closed loop measurements for this idea
have not been made. Following is letter posted to
other free energy lists;

This has occured as a side developemental
consideration in the the construction of strontium
ferrite rotors for the flux capacitor design. The new
dielectric values of capacity have not yet been
measured. In this rotor design 4  steel rulers are
attached to a one inch aluminum axle. These rulers are
attached to blocks of srtontium ferrite, thus we have
a 4 block roller assembly. In the flux capacitor
design the inside axle, and the 4 outer electrical
connections to the outer ferrite are the two plates of
a capacitor in resonance. That capacity is predicted
to rotate when interphased in the magnetic field of a
counterpart 90 degree phased resonance's magnetic
field coil. In the complicated mathematics that follow
in that design, the measured capacity of the rotor
must be the value needed for the field coils in
resonance, where the Sr Fe roller assemblies are
juxtaposed in their opposing phases magnetic fields.
This seems to me to be the intelligent application of
taking Joseph Newman's discovery that energy can be
taken from the magnetic fields in large copper
magnetic field coils. It is then taking his DC
application and making a better application using AC.

However returning to the DC application the following
idea occured. It seems at first better to show the
idea in offering as a problem the reader himself can
ponder, which when understood should be remarkable. In
the potential demonstration of the Sr Fe rollers, the
initial dumbfounding thing that may occur to the motor
designer is that a magnetic roller is moving at right
angles to the magnetic field. In order to explain how
that can happen, the laws of resonance must be known.
But in the DC application these are not essential. Now
the problem is then submitted as to how to make the
same thing happen with DC commutation techniques. In
other words the problem is given simply as follows:
given the use of Newman size field coils and  magnetic
rotors that spin, make them spin 90 degrees to the
normal method, where these rotors then spin inside the
magnetic field coils, but they spin along the axis of
the field coils magnetic field! To solve this problem
you will need 4 field coils.

Now imagine as I have said these 4 fold block rotors
exist. Because we are dealing with DC the parameters
are much looser. The dimensions of the rotating part
are not critical to the resonance in this DC design
that uses only magnetic fields and semi ordinary
magnetic field methods.. So here we can extend the
rotors outside the coils magnetic field axis. The
aluminum support axles will then meet in 4 corners,
where they are connected to positraction differentials
driving one of a 4 fold shaft power output.

The ordinary Newman coil methods have never been able
to power a significant load, because the whole design
has encompassed magnetic field paths with enormous
amounts of flux leakage, and allowing massive turns of
copper magnetic coils to compensate for this. A single
rotor coil design with the magnet rotating to the side
of a Newman coil encompasses magnetic fields of air
gap leakage at least three times the length of the low
reluctance magnetic path. In my design to be called
the "Norris Axial Magnetic Rotor" almost all of this
flux leakage through air will be eliminated. 

As is imagined these 4 field coils are arranged with
the magnetic field axis'in a closed loop formation,
similar to the square core of a transformer. We have
gone beyond Joseph Newman's conception here however
entirely because instead of the cores being air, we
are using ceramic 8 magnetic material. However Newmans
design uses a magnetised material to rotate whereas in
this application the rotating part need only be
unmagnetised! Possible design advances using actual
magnetised ferrite may be possible. When you put the 4
block rotators axles end to end in a square, in the
design it is noted the phasing angles of all 4 rotors
can be made the same. The addition of blocks on the
axle must stop before its ending gearing, otherwise
the blocks from one axle would collide with those of
its 90 degree partner, were the axles in an unphased
condition. At one point in the geared  phased unison
rotations half the rotor blocks can be horizontal from
a side view, and half of the blocks vertical in this 4
fold block rotor design. An examination of the
horizontal blocks and how they form the magnetic loop
paths through the 4 coils will reveal that it is on
this part of the rotation, happening 4 times per
revolution, that almost all the flux leakage has been
reduced to where the only air gaps are those at the 4
corners of the rotors, where they are then in their
closest contact points in space.  What we then have is
a motor in the form of a variable reluctance rotor.
Note that the inverse relationship is used in the
reluctance alternator, where the rotation of the rotor
changes the reluctance of the magnetic loop paths made
with respect to the stator outputs. In fact in my
measurements employing resonant circuits to AC
converted 3 phase alternators, the field in an
unenergized state would still deliver roughly 1/20th
the measured quantities of amperage and voltage that
the normal field input would deliver. Such a delivery
of energy classifies itself either as a Barnet effect
of centrifugal  metallic masses delivering voltage as
a macroscopic reaction to gyroscopic ferromagnetic
electron spin, or more simply by the reluctance
alternator concept, where merely altering the
inductance in time by a revolution of the  alternators
pole faces with respect to the stator produces a
stator output with a variable reluctance magnetic
field pathway.

Thus for operation the rotor at this minimum flux
leakage position represents the position attained in
the degree of maximum attractive force. On DC turn on
the rotors will rotate to this point. As per typical
DC motor design, two of the coils must be commutated
to reverse polarity, which then moves the rotor 1/8th
of a revolution. Thus 8 changes of polarity, with
associated commutated short gaps for the two firing
coils are used for commutation for the 4 block rotor
design. In this design model the overunity claims of
extraction of the energy in 1/2LI^2 will then be
easier made and verified. Such a working demonstration
model is made for plans in the future. This is a back
up in case the AC flux capacitor fails to produce
revolutions in this same kind of design.

Thus here we have one good idea followed by another.
Many people may not understand the flux cap design
using AC, so perhaps this DC application should proove
very useful. If the first case is something predicted
to work, in the second case I would classify it as
something "known" to work. A magnetic assembly that
can move to shorten is magnetic loop paths through
space will move the parts through space to accomplish
that. I have seen those actions from the fact that the
20,000 wind coils can produce usable magnetic fields
that exist in space around the coil as a normally non
saturable magnetic field. The initial caution towards
the use of magnetised materials in this design is that
at the repulsion portion of the cycle would have a
weak amp turns field in oppositon to one at saturation
that exist on the magnetised material. The temptation
of using magnetically paired NS rollers seems a
possibility however, that is also being explored where
the cylindrical capacities of Sr Fe cylinders in an
magnetised vs unmagnetised state are compared.

Sincerely
Harvey D Norris
One Step Backwards, two steps forward.


=====
Binary Resonant System  http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 01:42:26 2001
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	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 01:41:47 -0700
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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 01:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Norris Axial Magnetic Roller Design
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I am glad to tell the folks out there in free energy
land that the Tesla Electric Co was finally come up
with a design that sounds like a winner. It is a core
involving reluctances that can vary with 4 field
coils. It is also a project on back burner that can be
explored by more investments, should the flux
capacitors fail. The DC embodiment of this invention
is far more simpler so that the common folk can
comprehend how a axial magnetic line rotation can be
produced. The only problem there is that the overunity
aspects are limited to energy gained by spark gap
field collapse, and not the gain made by energy
transfer from AC resonance vs resistive losses. Both
the AC Flux Capacitors and the below mentioned DC
embodiment will use the same parts, where all the
parts for the AC version have now arrivwed for
assembly/pending technical and design problems. The DC
embodiment of enclosing the loop would make for
drastic design problems applied to AC, but in turn
will make the flux capacitor principle valid for lower
input frequecies closer to 60 hz, or this is the
speculation, as closed loop measurements for this idea
have not been made. Following is letter posted to
other free energy lists;

This has occured as a side developemental
consideration in the the construction of strontium
ferrite rotors for the flux capacitor design. The new
dielectric values of capacity have not yet been
measured. In this rotor design 4  steel rulers are
attached to a one inch aluminum axle. These rulers are
attached to blocks of srtontium ferrite, thus we have
a 4 block roller assembly. In the flux capacitor
design the inside axle, and the 4 outer electrical
connections to the outer ferrite are the two plates of
a capacitor in resonance. That capacity is predicted
to rotate when interphased in the magnetic field of a
counterpart 90 degree phased resonance's magnetic
field coil. In the complicated mathematics that follow
in that design, the measured capacity of the rotor
must be the value needed for the field coils in
resonance, where the Sr Fe roller assemblies are
juxtaposed in their opposing phases magnetic fields.
This seems to me to be the intelligent application of
taking Joseph Newman's discovery that energy can be
taken from the magnetic fields in large copper
magnetic field coils. It is then taking his DC
application and making a better application using AC.

However returning to the DC application the following
idea occured. It seems at first better to show the
idea in offering as a problem the reader himself can
ponder, which when understood should be remarkable. In
the potential demonstration of the Sr Fe rollers, the
initial dumbfounding thing that may occur to the motor
designer is that a magnetic roller is moving at right
angles to the magnetic field. In order to explain how
that can happen, the laws of resonance must be known.
But in the DC application these are not essential. Now
the problem is then submitted as to how to make the
same thing happen with DC commutation techniques. In
other words the problem is given simply as follows:
given the use of Newman size field coils and  magnetic
rotors that spin, make them spin 90 degrees to the
normal method, where these rotors then spin inside the
magnetic field coils, but they spin along the axis of
the field coils magnetic field! To solve this problem
you will need 4 field coils.

Now imagine as I have said these 4 fold block rotors
exist. Because we are dealing with DC the parameters
are much looser. The dimensions of the rotating part
are not critical to the resonance in this DC design
that uses only magnetic fields and semi ordinary
magnetic field methods.. So here we can extend the
rotors outside the coils magnetic field axis. The
aluminum support axles will then meet in 4 corners,
where they are connected to positraction differentials
driving one of a 4 fold shaft power output.

The ordinary Newman coil methods have never been able
to power a significant load, because the whole design
has encompassed magnetic field paths with enormous
amounts of flux leakage, and allowing massive turns of
copper magnetic coils to compensate for this. A single
rotor coil design with the magnet rotating to the side
of a Newman coil encompasses magnetic fields of air
gap leakage at least three times the length of the low
reluctance magnetic path. In my design to be called
the "Norris Axial Magnetic Rotor" almost all of this
flux leakage through air will be eliminated. 

As is imagined these 4 field coils are arranged with
the magnetic field axis'in a closed loop formation,
similar to the square core of a transformer. We have
gone beyond Joseph Newman's conception here however
entirely because instead of the cores being air, we
are using ceramic 8 magnetic material. However Newmans
design uses a magnetised material to rotate whereas in
this application the rotating part need only be
unmagnetised! Possible design advances using actual
magnetised ferrite may be possible. When you put the 4
block rotators axles end to end in a square, in the
design it is noted the phasing angles of all 4 rotors
can be made the same. The addition of blocks on the
axle must stop before its ending gearing, otherwise
the blocks from one axle would collide with those of
its 90 degree partner, were the axles in an unphased
condition. At one point in the geared  phased unison
rotations half the rotor blocks can be horizontal from
a side view, and half of the blocks vertical in this 4
fold block rotor design. An examination of the
horizontal blocks and how they form the magnetic loop
paths through the 4 coils will reveal that it is on
this part of the rotation, happening 4 times per
revolution, that almost all the flux leakage has been
reduced to where the only air gaps are those at the 4
corners of the rotors, where they are then in their
closest contact points in space.  What we then have is
a motor in the form of a variable reluctance rotor.
Note that the inverse relationship is used in the
reluctance alternator, where the rotation of the rotor
changes the reluctance of the magnetic loop paths made
with respect to the stator outputs. In fact in my
measurements employing resonant circuits to AC
converted 3 phase alternators, the field in an
unenergized state would still deliver roughly 1/20th
the measured quantities of amperage and voltage that
the normal field input would deliver. Such a delivery
of energy classifies itself either as a Barnet effect
of centrifugal  metallic masses delivering voltage as
a macroscopic reaction to gyroscopic ferromagnetic
electron spin, or more simply by the reluctance
alternator concept, where merely altering the
inductance in time by a revolution of the  alternators
pole faces with respect to the stator produces a
stator output with a variable reluctance magnetic
field pathway.

Thus for operation the rotor at this minimum flux
leakage position represents the position attained in
the degree of maximum attractive force. On DC turn on
the rotors will rotate to this point. As per typical
DC motor design, two of the coils must be commutated
to reverse polarity, which then moves the rotor 1/8th
of a revolution. Thus 8 changes of polarity, with
associated commutated short gaps for the two firing
coils are used for commutation for the 4 block rotor
design. In this design model the overunity claims of
extraction of the energy in 1/2LI^2 will then be
easier made and verified. Such a working demonstration
model is made for plans in the future. This is a back
up in case the AC flux capacitor fails to produce
revolutions in this same kind of design.

Thus here we have one good idea followed by another.
Many people may not understand the flux cap design
using AC, so perhaps this DC application should proove
very useful. If the first case is something predicted
to work, in the second case I would classify it as
something "known" to work. A magnetic assembly that
can move to shorten is magnetic loop paths through
space will move the parts through space to accomplish
that. I have seen those actions from the fact that the
20,000 wind coils can produce usable magnetic fields
that exist in space around the coil as a normally non
saturable magnetic field. The initial caution towards
the use of magnetised materials in this design is that
at the repulsion portion of the cycle would have a
weak amp turns field in oppositon to one at saturation
that exist on the magnetised material. The temptation
of using magnetically paired NS rollers seems a
possibility however, that is also being explored where
the cylindrical capacities of Sr Fe cylinders in an
magnetised vs unmagnetised state are compared.

Sincerely
Harvey D Norris
One Step Backwards, two steps forward.


=====
Binary Resonant System  http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 01:46:46 2001
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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 01:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Norris Axial Magnetic Roller Design
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I am glad to tell the folks out there in free energy
land that the Tesla Electric Co was finally come up
with a design that sounds like a winner. No predicted
overunity at first glance as a successor possible
construction. AC input might be coordinated for output
also.It is a core
involving reluctances that can vary with 4 field
coils. It is also a project on back burner that can be
explored by more investments, should the flux
capacitors fail. The DC embodiment of this invention
is far more simpler so that the common folk can
comprehend how a axial magnetic line rotation can be
produced. The only problem there is that the overunity
aspects are limited to energy gained by spark gap
field collapse, and not the gain made by energy
transfer from AC resonance vs resistive losses. Both
the AC Flux Capacitors and the below mentioned DC
embodiment will use the same parts, where all the
parts for the AC version have now arrivwed for
assembly/pending technical and design problems. The DC
embodiment of enclosing the loop would make for
drastic design problems applied to AC, but in turn
will make the flux capacitor principle valid for lower
input frequecies closer to 60 hz, or this is the
speculation, as closed loop measurements for this idea
have not been made. Following is letter posted to
other free energy lists;

This has occured as a side developemental
consideration in the the construction of strontium
ferrite rotors for the flux capacitor design. The new
dielectric values of capacity have not yet been
measured. In this rotor design 4  steel rulers are
attached to a one inch aluminum axle. These rulers are
attached to blocks of srtontium ferrite, thus we have
a 4 block roller assembly. In the flux capacitor
design the inside axle, and the 4 outer electrical
connections to the outer ferrite are the two plates of
a capacitor in resonance. That capacity is predicted
to rotate when interphased in the magnetic field of a
counterpart 90 degree phased resonance's magnetic
field coil. In the complicated mathematics that follow
in that design, the measured capacity of the rotor
must be the value needed for the field coils in
resonance, where the Sr Fe roller assemblies are
juxtaposed in their opposing phases magnetic fields.
This seems to me to be the intelligent application of
taking Joseph Newman's discovery that energy can be
taken from the magnetic fields in large copper
magnetic field coils. It is then taking his DC
application and making a better application using AC.

However returning to the DC application the following
idea occured. It seems at first better to show the
idea in offering as a problem the reader himself can
ponder, which when understood should be remarkable. In
the potential demonstration of the Sr Fe rollers, the
initial dumbfounding thing that may occur to the motor
designer is that a magnetic roller is moving at right
angles to the magnetic field. In order to explain how
that can happen, the laws of resonance must be known.
But in the DC application these are not essential. Now
the problem is then submitted as to how to make the
same thing happen with DC commutation techniques. In
other words the problem is given simply as follows:
given the use of Newman size field coils and  magnetic
rotors that spin, make them spin 90 degrees to the
normal method, where these rotors then spin inside the
magnetic field coils, but they spin along the axis of
the field coils magnetic field! To solve this problem
you will need 4 field coils.

Now imagine as I have said these 4 fold block rotors
exist. Because we are dealing with DC the parameters
are much looser. The dimensions of the rotating part
are not critical to the resonance in this DC design
that uses only magnetic fields and semi ordinary
magnetic field methods.. So here we can extend the
rotors outside the coils magnetic field axis. The
aluminum support axles will then meet in 4 corners,
where they are connected to positraction differentials
driving one of a 4 fold shaft power output.

The ordinary Newman coil methods have never been able
to power a significant load, because the whole design
has encompassed magnetic field paths with enormous
amounts of flux leakage, and allowing massive turns of
copper magnetic coils to compensate for this. A single
rotor coil design with the magnet rotating to the side
of a Newman coil encompasses magnetic fields of air
gap leakage at least three times the length of the low
reluctance magnetic path. In my design to be called
the "Norris Axial Magnetic Rotor" almost all of this
flux leakage through air will be eliminated. 

As is imagined these 4 field coils are arranged with
the magnetic field axis'in a closed loop formation,
similar to the square core of a transformer. We have
gone beyond Joseph Newman's conception here however
entirely because instead of the cores being air, we
are using ceramic 8 magnetic material. However Newmans
design uses a magnetised material to rotate whereas in
this application the rotating part need only be
unmagnetised! Possible design advances using actual
magnetised ferrite may be possible. When you put the 4
block rotators axles end to end in a square, in the
design it is noted the phasing angles of all 4 rotors
can be made the same. The addition of blocks on the
axle must stop before its ending gearing, otherwise
the blocks from one axle would collide with those of
its 90 degree partner, were the axles in an unphased
condition. At one point in the geared  phased unison
rotations half the rotor blocks can be horizontal from
a side view, and half of the blocks vertical in this 4
fold block rotor design. An examination of the
horizontal blocks and how they form the magnetic loop
paths through the 4 coils will reveal that it is on
this part of the rotation, happening 4 times per
revolution, that almost all the flux leakage has been
reduced to where the only air gaps are those at the 4
corners of the rotors, where they are then in their
closest contact points in space.  What we then have is
a motor in the form of a variable reluctance rotor.
Note that the inverse relationship is used in the
reluctance alternator, where the rotation of the rotor
changes the reluctance of the magnetic loop paths made
with respect to the stator outputs. In fact in my
measurements employing resonant circuits to AC
converted 3 phase alternators, the field in an
unenergized state would still deliver roughly 1/20th
the measured quantities of amperage and voltage that
the normal field input would deliver. Such a delivery
of energy classifies itself either as a Barnet effect
of centrifugal  metallic masses delivering voltage as
a macroscopic reaction to gyroscopic ferromagnetic
electron spin, or more simply by the reluctance
alternator concept, where merely altering the
inductance in time by a revolution of the  alternators
pole faces with respect to the stator produces a
stator output with a variable reluctance magnetic
field pathway.

Thus for operation the rotor at this minimum flux
leakage position represents the position attained in
the degree of maximum attractive force. On DC turn on
the rotors will rotate to this point. As per typical
DC motor design, two of the coils must be commutated
to reverse polarity, which then moves the rotor 1/8th
of a revolution. Thus 8 changes of polarity, with
associated commutated short gaps for the two firing
coils are used for commutation for the 4 block rotor
design. In this design model the overunity claims of
extraction of the energy in 1/2LI^2 will then be
easier made and verified. Such a working demonstration
model is made for plans in the future. This is a back
up in case the AC flux capacitor fails to produce
revolutions in this same kind of design.

Thus here we have one good idea followed by another.
Many people may not understand the flux cap design
using AC, so perhaps this DC application should proove
very useful. If the first case is something predicted
to work, in the second case I would classify it as
something "known" to work. A magnetic assembly that
can move to shorten is magnetic loop paths through
space will move the parts through space to accomplish
that. I have seen those actions from the fact that the
20,000 wind coils can produce usable magnetic fields
that exist in space around the coil as a normally non
saturable magnetic field. The initial caution towards
the use of magnetised materials in this design is that
at the repulsion portion of the cycle would have a
weak amp turns field in oppositon to one at saturation
that exist on the magnetised material. The temptation
of using magnetically paired NS rollers seems a
possibility however, that is also being explored where
the cylindrical capacities of Sr Fe cylinders in an
magnetised vs unmagnetised state are compared.

Sincerely
Harvey D Norris
One Step Backwards, two steps forward.


=====
Binary Resonant System  http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 04:58:56 2001
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Subject: Re: H2/D2 Filled Mercury Pool Rectifier LENR Devices?
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If Scott wants to make it really interesting he can use
a water pool cathode spiked with LiOH or K2CO3,
or a mercury cathode with 6 anodes ( 60 degrees apart
in a circle) powered by using three center-tapped transformers (neon sign xfrmrs) with
their primaries hooked to his 3 phase AC.

This makes it a six phase commutation device, but you got to get the phasing right.
:-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 09:24:22 2001
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Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Letters in triplicate?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Sorry for triple posting, I have no idea how that
happened. I am sure I only posted it once. Since it
was a late night post I may not have been aware. HDN

=====
Binary Resonant System  http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 10:19:42 2001
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References: <nn9tctsii20fl171gu8d5mkvnonf284ao3 4ax.com>
 <v04011700b6f2df301c64 [207.8.127.117]>
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 <002801c0be08$59453ee0$3f8f85ce computer>
 <v04011700b6f2df301c64 [207.8.127.117]>
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:12:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"GHS4m2.0.L-1.iiqpw" mx2>
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>>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:16:38 -0500:
>>
>>>OK Fred, one more time:  you have claimed that the loss of water due to UV
>>>and X-ray dissociation in the Martian ionosphere accounts for the desert
>>>conditions on Mars.
>>>
>>>However:
>>>
>>>(1) I have given you evidence suggesting that Mars receives an infall of
>>>almost 900 cubic miles of water from space every 20,000 years.
>>[snip]
>>Hi Mitchell,
>>
>>You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
>>based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
>>The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
>>comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.
>
>***{Either that, or cows jumping over the moon. :-) --MJ}***

***{Robin, in case you were serious, check out this link, and then tell me
how the black spots could be UFO's. See
http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/blackspot.html. (This is a scientific
detective story worth reading for entertainment value alone, by the way.)
--MJ}***

>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>>New model hydrogen atom see
>>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 16:44:44 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:43:53 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <t49vctgc1q42as7hnsq8dgtr2uhnc8dds0 4ax.com>
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> <v04011700b6f4fa3f1ded [207.8.127.145]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:12:06 -0500:
[snip]
Hi Mitchell,
>>>
>>>You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
>>>based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
>>>The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
>>>comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.
>>
>>***{Either that, or cows jumping over the moon. :-) --MJ}***
>
>***{Robin, in case you were serious, check out this link, and then tell me
>how the black spots could be UFO's. See
>http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/blackspot.html. (This is a scientific
>detective story worth reading for entertainment value alone, by the way.)
>--MJ}***
[snip]
The number / year calculated is based upon the assumption that each is a
different object. If they are UFOs with continually varying degrees of
diffraction of UV light then they would appear and disappear again. I.e.
one would be seeing the same craft (pl) over and over again.
As to their size, it need not represent the actual size of the craft
involved, only the size of the gravitational field surrounding the
craft, which bends the light resulting in an apparent black cloud.
(BTW I did read it, and if it upset so many people, just imagine how
many would be upset by my version ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 23:30:50 2001
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 <v04011700b6f4fa3f1ded [207.8.127.145]>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:27:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"d83dT.0.Re3.pL0qw" mx2>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:12:06 -0500:
>[snip]
>Hi Mitchell,
>>>>
>>>>You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
>>>>based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
>>>>The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
>>>>comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.
>>>
>>>***{Either that, or cows jumping over the moon. :-) --MJ}***
>>
>>***{Robin, in case you were serious, check out this link, and then tell me
>>how the black spots could be UFO's. See
>>http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/blackspot.html. (This is a scientific
>>detective story worth reading for entertainment value alone, by the way.)
>>--MJ}***
>[snip]
>The number / year calculated is based upon the assumption that each is a
>different object. If they are UFOs with continually varying degrees of
>diffraction of UV light then they would appear and disappear again. I.e.
>one would be seeing the same craft (pl) over and over again.
>As to their size, it need not represent the actual size of the craft
>involved, only the size of the gravitational field surrounding the
>craft, which bends the light resulting in an apparent black cloud.

***{Two points:

(1) The gravitational field of the sun, a body of enormous mass, just
barely bends the light of an occulted star enough for it to be detected on
the plate of a photograph taken an instant after it passes behind the limb.
Thus there is simply *no way* that the gravitational field of a tiny alien
space ship could bend light enough to produce a detectible change on a
photographic plate: the ship would have to have a vastly greater mass than
the sun.

(2) Conventional gravity would bend the light in the wrong direction: the
dayglow rising up from below the ship toward the camera would be bent into
a convergent pattern as it passed the ship, and as a result would cause the
dark silhouette of the ship, as captured by the camera, to shrink rather
than to expand. In order to cause its silhouette to appear larger on the
photographic plate, the ship would have to employ an antigravity field more
powerful than the gravitational field of the sun.

Bottom line: this looks like another "exceptionally implausible"
hypothesis, Robin. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>(BTW I did read it, and if it upset so many people, just imagine how
>many would be upset by my version ;).

***{As you know, I am open to the possibility that some of the tales of
alien visitation are correct. However, the vast majority of such
reports--and possibly all--are almost certainly erroneous, and your attempt
to treat the small comet data as evidence of alien visitation looks
erroneous as well. --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 00:26:03 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:24:57 +1000
Organization: Improving
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]> <v04011701b6f473eef116 [207.8.127.41]> <v04011700b6f4fa3f1ded@[207.8.127.145]> <t49vctgc1q42as7hnsq8dgtr2uhnc8dds0@4ax.com> <v04011700b6f5ab19a458@[207.8.127.6]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:27:58 -0500:
[snip]
>(1) The gravitational field of the sun, a body of enormous mass, just
>barely bends the light of an occulted star enough for it to be detected on
>the plate of a photograph taken an instant after it passes behind the limb.
>Thus there is simply *no way* that the gravitational field of a tiny alien
>space ship could bend light enough to produce a detectible change on a
>photographic plate: the ship would have to have a vastly greater mass than
>the sun.

UFOs do not use mass to produce an anti gravity field. This is also the
fallacy behind the notion that we can't produce worm holes. The current
paradigm is stuck on the fact that Einstein said that mass produced a
gravitational field. He didn't however say that it was the only way to
get the job done.

>
>(2) Conventional gravity would bend the light in the wrong direction: the
>dayglow rising up from below the ship toward the camera would be bent into
>a convergent pattern as it passed the ship, and as a result would cause the
>dark silhouette of the ship, as captured by the camera, to shrink rather
>than to expand. In order to cause its silhouette to appear larger on the
>photographic plate, the ship would have to employ an antigravity field more
>powerful than the gravitational field of the sun.

Correct, but scaled down (or wrong, depending on how argumentative we
are feeling ;). I.e. the local intensity needs to be greater than the
local intensity of the Earth's field. The absolute magnitude only has to
be large enough to support the vessel. The effect vanishes at the edges
where the local intensity drops off to less than that of the Earth's
field, and normality is restored.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 06:36:06 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <rhf rhfweb.com>
Subject: Anti-Energy, Holographs, & Hyper-Zero Point Energies
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 10:05:54 -0700
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Anti-Energy, Holographs, & Hyper-Zero Point Energies to
Counter DEW

I would like to discuss several different types of energy forms,
how to detect, collect  and redirect the energies. The energies
that I will discuss are Normal energy, Anti-energy, Complex
Imaginary Energies, High Frequency and Hyper special Zero
point energies. 

Normal energies include the standard nuclear(weak, & strong),
electromagnetic, & gravity energies.  Following the 4th
dimensional model of relativity theory, there are three hyper
planes which represent the spacial and time planes in the past,
present, and future. The past hyper plane represents all the
normal energies mentioned above coming from the past which
we perceive as the light or the cosmic/sky energies in our past
to present reality. The present null hyper plane represents the
transition point from the past to the future.  The future hyper
plane represents the anti-energies of the future which are the
opposite of the past energies of the present.   The anti-energies
may be the anti-sky energies or the energies of the possibilities
of the mind, dark matter, and other higher dimensional
energies. The complex imaginary energies are the energies of
the imaginary component of imaginary numbers used to
represent complex numbers.  The high frequency Tesla
energies may be part of the hyperspacial and zero point free
energies. 

In order to test for and collect directed energies coming from
beamed energies derived from hyperspacial energies of anti-
energy, high frequency zero point free energies, and complex
imaginary energies, one may use the following meter system:

One needs to set up 2 meters where each meter has 3 plates
orthogonal to each other, with the two meters placed at a
distance apart to capture stereoscopic, holographic 3D(x,y,z)
cosmic normal sky light energies of the past hyperplane. From
the 4D spin matrix-Lorentz or quaternion matrix or vector 
energies representing the data collected from the above meters
one may compute the anti and complex energies of the anti-
sky, future hyper plane of the human mind or dark matter with
the equations of the 4D spin matrix-Lorenz anti equations and
reverse complex number equations. From the computations  of
the anti and complex energies of the future plane of light
energy, one may visualize the effect that the anti-and complex
energies may have on the past present energies, to understand
how the anti-energies may be generated and used in directed
energy weapons to pass through surfaces and effect the
energies of the human body.  

In order to test and collect directed energies coming from
cosmic high frequency zero point energies or subatomic bond
energies, one may set up a metal ball tuned to the high
frequency resonance's with geometric and dynamic
sympathetic moving parts which collects the various high
frequency energies from all directions. The collected high-
frequency energies may be used as a free energy power source. 
Also one may set up special metal screens which direct the
force fields of the various electromagnetic and other hyper
energy force fields so that they do not cancel each other out,
and may be used as a free energy power source. 

In order to generate holographic normal and anti energies one
may do the following:

The anti- and complex energies may be generated by the anti-
and complex 4D spin matrix and Lorentz equations. If one
combines the normal wave equations from the normal 4D 
stereographic-holographic spin matrix equations with the 4D
anti-spin matrix equations using complex numbers ,one may be
able to come up with a precise holographic by-laser or bi-wave
directed energy beam generation device. 

I am presently working on the exact frequencies of the cosmic
waves used in high frequency Telsa energies so that I may
construct a metal ball with dynamic and geometric moving
sympathetic parts to collect and capture the Tesla free energies. 
I am also working on the precise equations needed to represent
4D holographic normal and anti-energy waves. 

I already  have a paper which shows how to redirect energies
from magnets so that they do not cancel each other out using a
special microscreen. But the paper does not explain how to
construct the microscreen. 

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at
http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom
Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com





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Cc: "Lori Lou Schillig" <schillig alliancelink.com>,
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Subject: Peltier driven thermogravity
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:52:01 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0C022.52A46360
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Gentlemen;

It has been a week since my last posting.

As it turns out, we still did not get to the accelerator experiment at =
the University of Toledo.

However, during this past week, I did follow through with chasing the =
Peltier force effect to a new level of play, so to speak.

So here is how I will present it for now.  I believe that the Peltier =
force effect was only part of a more fundamental system, that does =
indeed put it much closer in line with what Pete Fred has disclosed in =
the past.

The body of this posting, between the ***** lines, is an excerpt of a =
letter I e-mailed to Pete last week.  That sums up where I was at that =
point.  However, read on past that point as well.

********excerpt*****

Now, here is something I wanted to share.  I have not yet posted this on =
vortex, sort of with the intent of seeing if Scott Little was going to =
go any further with the Peltier I sent him.

Pete; I now believe that I have seen evidence that the effect is not due =
to any esoteric properties of the Peltier device - the Peltier is just =
an efficient solid state heat pump after all.  However, as you have =
suspected from the perspective of your theory, I believe it DOES have to =
do with a certain geometry of heat flow.  But not what we were thinking =
originally...

Friday, I puzzled over why the weight change effect seemed so sluggish =
or null with Scott Little's copper box.  The copper box, even with one =
of the smaller more efficient Peltiers in the center, gave a VERY slow =
response, and a fairly weak one as well.  Very slow.

Then I thought, what if the flow of heat either to or from the Peltier =
heat pump needs to be radial AND 2 dimensional!  What happens when heat =
energy flows inward or outward in a very thin planar metal medium.  =
Maybe the reason the larger Peltiers are such poor performers is that I =
really needed to scale the size and 2D area of the thermal "take-off" =
foil to get the effect to scale up.

In the case of my devices, maybe the reason the Peltier loses or gains =
weight is because it is creating a small weak gravity dipole when the =
heat flows out in 2D at the hot face and flows inward in 2D at the cold =
face!

I then took one of my good performer Peltiers and made a copper foil =
envelope for it using 4 discrete foil layers top and bottom, crinkled =
slightly to make some crude air gap space between layers.  Tried it out =
- saw well over 5 mg of weight change, as opposed to 2 - 3 mg for a =
single foil layer envelope...  What to try next?

Well, then, I took one of the smallest size Peltiers that I have, and =
epoxied a copper foil square (2 inches by 2 inches) to one side, and a =
flat popsickle stick end to the other.  This allowed me to slip the =
whole arrangement immediately under the pan of my balance, at about 1mm =
gap.  In the balance pan, I had a simple block of aluminum as a test =
mass.

The upper surface of the foil square was covered with a piece of ceramic =
paper insulation to cut down on convection.

When I applied current so that  the heat flowed outward through the foil =
from the center, the balance pan and test mass GAINED about a milligram, =
as though it was being drawn to the foil surface.  Reversing current, to =
pull heat from the foil radially inward again caused a repelling effect, =
and the test mass LOST about a milligram!

I believe that this shows that the Peltier force effect is capable of =
acting on remote masses - the creation of a gravitational or =
anti-gravitational force.

Since you are set up for larger scale experiments, maybe it would be an =
easy matter to try some flat arrangements with a Peltier in the center.

This, then, is what I establish - when heat flows radially inward or =
outward in a thermal conductor, but is constrained to a very thin; =
approaching 2D, type of path, a force arises that seems to act as an =
either attracting or repelling gravity force.

This is indeed all fitting well with your observations and modelling!  =
It also opens the door for vast improvement using multi-layered thermal =
conductors spaced with thermal insulators.

But now we have to ponder, if all of this is so, then is it a basic =
thermodynamic effect on gravity, or does a directed flow of heat somehow =
coher nuclear spins or vibrations, or something like that...?

Best;

NR

************ end excerpt ********

   Now, in addition to the above experiments, I proceeded to use the 2 =
very large Peltiers provided by Scott to scale the basic effect up, =
using what I know now.  I have, to date, produced levels of weight =
change repeatedly between 20 and 30 milligrams, with one multi layer =
disc shaped version giving about 70 milligrams of weight increase and =
decrease before the foil warped off the face of the Peltier.
   Basically, I simply scaled up the planar area of the original early =
copper foil "pita" envelopes.  With one of Scott's 50W Peltiers epoxied =
in the center of an approximately 5 inch diameter envelope, I was =
getting the pretty repeatable 20 to 30 milligram changes.  Thus it would =
appear that the decrease in efficiency and deadness I was seeing with my =
larger Peltiers was because I wasn't scaling everything else up in the =
system accordingly!
   This has been accomplished using the thin foil lead in strips, and =
strain relieving ala Hamdi Ucar's suggestion.
   I have also observed the effect to an un-diminished degree using a =
plastic bag and a 3/4 inch thick wrap of kao-wool ceramic fiber blanket =
around the device, for thermal isolation.

   Now, have I run any tests under vacuum yet?  No.  Am I totally =
convinced that a warm air / convective artifact could not still be =
present?  No, but thats what I'm working on.

   I am planning to work closely with Pete Fred on this whole matter, =
and also look forward to whatever results may yet be forthcoming from =
Scott and David R.

   One other notion I have entertained is that perhaps directed heat =
flow produces a "Wallace - like" effect due to some sort of vibratory =
polarization of certain metals.  On the other hand, aluminum  foil seems =
to work for these devices to a reasonable (although somewhat lesser) =
degree.  I don't recall if aluminum was one of Wallaces special nucleon =
spin number materials.

NR

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0C022.52A46360
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gentlemen;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It has been a week since my last=20
posting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As it turns out, we still did not get =
to the=20
accelerator experiment at the University of Toledo.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, during this past week, I did =
follow=20
through with chasing the Peltier force effect to a new level of play, so =
to=20
speak.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So here is how I will present it for =
now.&nbsp; I=20
believe that the Peltier force effect was only part of a more =
fundamental=20
system, that does indeed put it much closer in line with what Pete Fred =
has=20
disclosed in the past.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The body of this posting, between the =
***** lines,=20
is an excerpt of a letter I e-mailed to Pete last week.&nbsp; That sums =
up where=20
I was at that point.&nbsp; However, read on past that point as=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>********excerpt*****</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now, here is something I wanted to =
share.&nbsp; I=20
have not yet posted this on vortex, sort of with the intent of seeing if =
Scott=20
Little was going to go any further with the Peltier I sent =
him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pete; I now believe that I have seen =
evidence that=20
the effect is not due to any esoteric properties of the Peltier device - =
the=20
Peltier is just an efficient solid state heat pump after all.&nbsp; =
However, as=20
you have suspected from the perspective of your theory, I believe it =
DOES have=20
to do with a certain geometry of heat flow.&nbsp; But not what we were =
thinking=20
originally...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday, I puzzled over why the weight =
change effect=20
seemed so sluggish or null with Scott Little's copper box.&nbsp; The =
copper box,=20
even with one of the smaller more efficient Peltiers in the center, gave =
a VERY=20
slow response, and a fairly weak one as well.&nbsp; Very =
slow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Then I thought, what if the flow of =
heat either to=20
or from the Peltier heat pump needs to be radial AND 2 =
dimensional!&nbsp; What=20
happens when heat energy flows inward or outward in a very thin planar =
metal=20
medium.&nbsp; Maybe the reason the larger Peltiers are such poor =
performers is=20
that I really needed to scale the size and 2D area of the thermal =
"take-off"=20
foil to get the effect to scale up.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the case of my devices, maybe the =
reason the=20
Peltier loses or gains weight is because it is creating a small weak =
gravity=20
dipole when the heat flows out in 2D at the hot face and flows inward in =
2D at=20
the cold face!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I then took one of my good performer =
Peltiers and=20
made a copper foil envelope for it using 4 discrete foil layers top and =
bottom,=20
crinkled slightly to make some crude air gap space between layers.&nbsp; =
Tried=20
it out - saw well over 5 mg of weight change, as opposed to 2 - 3 mg for =
a=20
single foil layer envelope...&nbsp; What to try next?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, then,&nbsp;I took one of the =
smallest size=20
Peltiers that I have, and epoxied a copper foil square (2 inches by 2 =
inches) to=20
one side, and a flat popsickle stick end to the other.&nbsp; This =
allowed me to=20
slip the whole arrangement immediately under the pan of my balance, at =
about 1mm=20
gap.&nbsp; In the balance pan, I had a simple block of aluminum as a =
test=20
mass.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The upper surface of the foil square =
was covered=20
with a piece of ceramic paper insulation to cut down on =
convection.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When I applied current so that&nbsp; =
the heat=20
flowed outward through the foil from the center, the balance pan and =
test mass=20
GAINED about a milligram, as though it was being drawn to the foil=20
surface.&nbsp; Reversing current, to pull heat from the foil radially =
inward=20
again caused a repelling effect, and the test mass LOST about a=20
milligram!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe that this shows that the =
Peltier force=20
effect is capable of acting on remote masses - the creation of a =
gravitational=20
or anti-gravitational force.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Since you are set up for larger scale =
experiments,=20
maybe it would be an easy matter to try some flat arrangements with a =
Peltier in=20
the center.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This, then, is what I establish - when =
heat flows=20
radially inward or outward in a thermal conductor, but is constrained to =
a very=20
thin; approaching 2D, type of path, a force arises that seems to act as =
an=20
either attracting or repelling gravity force.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is indeed all fitting well with =
your=20
observations and modelling!&nbsp; It also opens the door for vast =
improvement=20
using multi-layered thermal conductors spaced with thermal=20
insulators.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But now we have to ponder, if all of =
this is so,=20
then is it a basic thermodynamic effect on gravity, or does a directed =
flow of=20
heat somehow coher nuclear spins or vibrations, or something like=20
that...?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NR</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>************ end excerpt =
********</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, in addition to the =
above=20
experiments, I proceeded to use the 2 very large Peltiers provided by =
Scott to=20
scale the basic effect up, using what I know now.&nbsp; I have, to date, =

produced levels of weight change repeatedly between 20 and 30 =
milligrams, with=20
one multi layer disc shaped version giving about 70 milligrams of weight =

increase and decrease before the foil warped off the face of the=20
Peltier.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Basically, I simply scaled =
up the=20
planar area of the original early copper foil "pita" envelopes.&nbsp; =
With one=20
of Scott's 50W Peltiers epoxied in the center of an approximately 5 inch =

diameter envelope, I was getting the pretty repeatable 20 to 30 =
milligram=20
changes.&nbsp; Thus it would appear that the decrease in efficiency and =
deadness=20
I was seeing with my larger Peltiers was because I wasn't scaling =
everything=20
else up in the system accordingly!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; This has been accomplished =
using the=20
thin foil lead in strips, and strain relieving ala Hamdi Ucar's=20
suggestion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; I have also observed the =
effect to an=20
un-diminished degree using a plastic bag and a 3/4 inch thick wrap of =
kao-wool=20
ceramic fiber blanket around the device, for thermal =
isolation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, have I run any tests =
under vacuum=20
yet?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Am I totally convinced that a warm air / convective =

artifact could not still be present?&nbsp; No, but thats what I'm =
working=20
on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; I am planning to work =
closely with=20
Pete Fred on this whole matter, and also look forward to whatever =
results may=20
yet be forthcoming from Scott and David R.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; One other notion I have =
entertained is=20
that perhaps directed heat flow produces a "Wallace - like" effect due =
to some=20
sort of vibratory polarization of certain metals.&nbsp; On the other =
hand,=20
aluminum&nbsp; foil seems to work for these devices to a reasonable =
(although=20
somewhat lesser) degree.&nbsp; I don't recall if aluminum was one of =
Wallaces=20
special nucleon spin number materials.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C0C022.52A46360--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 09:41:06 2001
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Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:37:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [svpvril] Material Bends The Laws Of Physics
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>New composite material twists radiation in a novel way and it might 
>be able to be used for new designs in antennas and lenses.
>
>Consisting of a series of thin fiberglass sheets coated with copper 
>rings and wires, the material is arranged into squares like the 
>interlocking inserts in a case of wine.
>
>The interesting phenomenum is that it has a 'negative' index of 
>refraction with electromagnetic radiation.
>
>Read more at:
>
>   http://www.msnbc.com/news/555287.asp?0nm=N22C
>
>Regards,
>
>Zeke
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Free Email at http://mail.euroseek.com
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 12:28:19 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Photon Absorption Momentum Effect
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:23:38 -0500
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Preliminary experiments indicate that absorption of a photon results in the transfer
of the momentum of the
photon to the absorber plus an added momentum of
the excitation state of the absorber(electron momentum mv')in the initial direction of
the absorbed photon, or in
the direction of heat flow.

IOW, the new kinetic energy, Ek' = (1/2mv^2)' acts as an energy- momentum
converter/multiplier and the "surplus" or unreacted photon energy flows out of the
system :

Momentum mv' =   m[2(Eo-E')/m]^1/2

This puts "Solar Sails" or such, on a different footing,
that is to say, with proper design they become passive
heat engines with orders of magnitude more thrust
than reflective "Sails" at a given photon flux.

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 12:32:07 2001
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 <200104060337.FAA19784 w2.euroseek.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:24:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: [svpvril] Material Bends The Laws Of Physics
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>>New composite material twists radiation in a novel way and it might
>>be able to be used for new designs in antennas and lenses.
>>
>>Consisting of a series of thin fiberglass sheets coated with copper
>>rings and wires, the material is arranged into squares like the
>>interlocking inserts in a case of wine.
>>
>>The interesting phenomenum is that it has a 'negative' index of
>>refraction with electromagnetic radiation.

***{This notion of a "negative index of refraction" makes no sense to me.
The index of refraction can be thought of either as the ratio of the speed
of light in vacuum to the speed of light in some medium (e.g., glass), or
as the ratio between the sine of the angle of incidence to the sine of the
angle of refraction. In the first case, since the speed of light is
positive in both cases, the index must also be positive. In the second
case, since the angles of incidence and refraction are defined as angles
between the path of a photon (either incident or refracted) and the
perpendicular to the surface at the entry point, they must in both cases be
between 0 and 90 degrees and, hence, their sines and the ratio between
their sines must be positive.

So what is the author of the article trying to say? Well, the only thing
that comes to my mind is that the speed of light in the material is greater
than the speed of light in a vacuum, but he doesn't want to say it, out of
fear of stirring up those who worship Einstein. Result: instead of saying
that the refractive index was less than 1, he opted to say it was negative.
(It's a common technique for avoiding conflict: create a fog, and then hide
in it. :-)

That's just a guess, of course. If anybody has a more well-founded opinion,
let's hear it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>Read more at:
>>
>>   http://www.msnbc.com/news/555287.asp?0nm=N22C
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Zeke
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Free Email at http://mail.euroseek.com
>>
>>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>>
>>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 13:59:30 2001
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Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:55:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:27:58 -0500:
>[snip]
>>(1) The gravitational field of the sun, a body of enormous mass, just
>>barely bends the light of an occulted star enough for it to be detected on
>>the plate of a photograph taken an instant after it passes behind the limb.
>>Thus there is simply *no way* that the gravitational field of a tiny alien
>>space ship could bend light enough to produce a detectible change on a
>>photographic plate: the ship would have to have a vastly greater mass than
>>the sun.
>
>UFOs do not use mass to produce an anti gravity field. This is also the
>fallacy behind the notion that we can't produce worm holes. The current
>paradigm is stuck on the fact that Einstein said that mass produced a
>gravitational field. He didn't however say that it was the only way to
>get the job done.

***{My comments, above, were an attempt to respond to what you might have
meant. As far as I could tell, you might have been referring to the
gravitational field produced by the mass of the alien ship. For the record:
I consider the formulae of the Einstein theory to be merely mathematical
constructs that have been deliberately fitted to experimentally determined
data points, and I consider the verified "predictions" that have been
extracted from those formulae to be little more than plausible
extrapolations and interpolations from those constructs. Result: I feel no
obligation whatsoever to accept Einstein's *interpretations* of those
constructs, or the philosophy on which he based those interpretations.
Instead, I use his mathematical constructs when I find them helpful, but I
interpret them in accordance with my own philosophy and worldview, not his.
(As you know, I have a similar attitude toward "quantum mechanics." :-)
--MJ}***

>>(2) Conventional gravity would bend the light in the wrong direction: the
>>dayglow rising up from below the ship toward the camera would be bent into
>>a convergent pattern as it passed the ship, and as a result would cause the
>>dark silhouette of the ship, as captured by the camera, to shrink rather
>>than to expand. In order to cause its silhouette to appear larger on the
>>photographic plate, the ship would have to employ an antigravity field more
>>powerful than the gravitational field of the sun.
>
>Correct, but scaled down (or wrong, depending on how argumentative we
>are feeling ;). I.e. the local intensity needs to be greater than the
>local intensity of the Earth's field.

***{We are not here concerned with how intense the antigravity field needs
to be to provide lift to the ship, Robin. What we are concerned with is how
intense it needs to be to account for the observed deflection of the
dayglow photons.

As you may be aware, when Einstein's prediction about the bending of light
by gravity was verified in 1919 (by a British expedition which observed a
total eclipse of the sun in Africa), the measured deflection of photons was
fantastically small, and just barely (and arguably) detectible on the
photographic plate. This was true despite the 93 million miles traveled by
the light between skimming the surface of the sun and arriving on Earth,
which had the effect of exaggerating the deflection. (If you are off-course
by some tiny angle, your distance from your intended position gets greater
and greater the further you travel.)

What this means is that if the gravitational deflection of photons by the
Sun is just barely measurable on Earth, despite the exaggeration due to the
intervening distance of 93 million miles, it is exceedingly implausible to
suppose that a tiny alien space ship would exert enough of a push on
dayglow photons to produce an apparent "hole" having an area of thousands
of square kilometers, when the distance traveled by the photons to the
camera after being deflected around the ship was itself just a few thousand
kilometers. (If you will download Dr. Frank's paper, "On the Influx of
Small Comets into the Atmosphere" and read it, you will discover that the
typical "hole" in the dayglow has an area of about 2,000 km^2, and that his
data came from Dynamics Explorer 1, a high-altitude, polar-orbiting
satellite which had a perigee of 570 km and an apogee of 23280 km.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

The absolute magnitude only has to
>be large enough to support the vessel.

***{Incorrect. If we assume that a tiny alien spaceship is between the
dayglow layer of the ionosphere and the orbit of Dynamics Explorer 1, and
that its antigravity field is pushing photons away with sufficient force to
produce a photographic image indicating a dayglow hole with an area of
2,000 square kilometers, then the antigravity field of the ship has to be
many orders of magnitude stronger than the gravitational field of the Sun.
On the other hand, if we assume that the areas of the alien vessels *really
do* average 2,000 square kilometers, then with one of them entering Earth's
atmosphere every 6 seconds, every human on the planet would see them
routinely every day of his or her life, and this discussion wouldn't be
taking place. --MJ}***

The effect vanishes at the edges
>where the local intensity drops off to less than that of the Earth's
>field, and normality is restored.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 15:05:12 2001
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Peltier driven thermogravity
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Nick -

Again, good work - and thanks for the continuous postings here.

Remote effects make it easier to test & confirm! Let's hope it's the case.

If a small test balance could be placed in a vacuum container with a 
piece of kaowool under that for good measure, holding a propane torch 
to a copper half-sphere under that should show something.

Bismuth is the high-mass odd-nucleon material that ought to give good 
Wallace effect. Wallace used brass, and claimed that the copper and 
the zinc both have a percentage of isotopes that contribute to the 
effect. His alloy was 89% copper, 10% zinc, and 1% lead. Aluminum has 
just the one abundant isotope, 27. 5/2 spin. Often alloyed with 
copper as a casting material, but foils are usually 99% Al or 
thereabouts. I suppose it would work as a Wallace material, but I 
don't think he mentioned it.

Copper has a higher mass than Al, and it works better, apparently. 
Suggests mass is a factor. Bismuth should be better than copper or 
brass. Bi-209, 9/2 spin.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 17:21:50 2001
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At 11:52 AM 4/8/2001 -0400, Nick Reiter wrote:

>    Basically, I simply scaled up the planar area of the original early 
> copper foil "pita" envelopes.  With one of Scott's 50W Peltiers epoxied 
> in the center of an approximately 5 inch diameter envelope, I was getting 
> the pretty repeatable 20 to 30 milligram changes.  Thus it would appear 
> that the decrease in efficiency and deadness I was seeing with my larger 
> Peltiers was because I wasn't scaling everything else up in the system 
> accordingly!

HOLY SMOKES, Nick!  What is the thickness of this Cu sheeting your're using?

>    This has been accomplished using the thin foil lead in strips, and 
> strain relieving ala Hamdi Ucar's suggestion.
>    I have also observed the effect to an un-diminished degree using a 
> plastic bag and a 3/4 inch thick wrap of kao-wool ceramic fiber blanket 
> around the device, for thermal isolation.

You put the kaowool around the device and then slipped the wrapped device 
into the plastic bag!?  Seems like that would have to DRASTICALLY reduce 
any convection currents around the thing...and I was all set to predict 
that your bigger sheets were just bigger generators of convection currents!


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 17:33:58 2001
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Hi, Scott;

See below -


 Thus it would appear
> > that the decrease in efficiency and deadness I was seeing with my larger
> > Peltiers was because I wasn't scaling everything else up in the system
> > accordingly!
>
> HOLY SMOKES, Nick!  What is the thickness of this Cu sheeting your're
using?

*******  Specifically,  the thickness of the copper sheet itself was not
scaled.  It was .005", which was the same thickness, I believe, of the foil
I used for the original envelopes, like the little one you have.  I did
purchase some copper sheet yesterday that is .025", so will give that a try.

> >    I have also observed the effect to an un-diminished degree using a
> > plastic bag and a 3/4 inch thick wrap of kao-wool ceramic fiber blanket
> > around the device, for thermal isolation.
>
> You put the kaowool around the device and then slipped the wrapped device
> into the plastic bag!?  Seems like that would have to DRASTICALLY reduce
> any convection currents around the thing...and I was all set to predict
> that your bigger sheets were just bigger generators of convection
currents!

******  The foil envelope / Peltier was in the bag first, then wrapped in
the kaowool.  But I can run it the other way around as well.

   The nice thing is that I can now use a less sensitive balance, like a
Triple Beam to see weight changes that are in the tens of milligrams.  The
old Triple Beam I have will fit into the vacuum bell jar that I have at my
disposal...

NR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 18:02:15 2001
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>From a CNN article:

Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

"In January, an explosion in a restaurant toilet left three people injured. A homeless
man has been arrested in connection with that explosion."

Wow! I told you that biomass has potential.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 18:41:26 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier driven thermogravity
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At 12:03 PM 4/8/1, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Nick -
>
>Again, good work - and thanks for the continuous postings here.
>


Amen to that!  No matter whether the effect turns out to be ordinarily
explainable or not, it is very interesting science.  Kudos to Nick, Scott
and others doing the work.  I hope to join in the effort soon, but have
been very busy with other things.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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	Aurora in Southern skies...Ohio....

There was another one last night.

The big one was last Friday night.. seen far and wide, clear to 
Mexico.

K index hit 9.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 04:22:18 2001
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This treatise is a good indicator that the phonon-phonon scattering phenomena in the
Nick Reiter- Peter Fred experiment is responsible for a Net Thrust due to heat flow
and thermoacoustic momentum effects.

 http://www.zts.com/ztreports/vin93a/#Phonon_Scattering

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 04:52:32 2001
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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At 05:20 AM 4/9/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>This treatise is a good indicator that the phonon-phonon scattering 
>phenomena in the
>Nick Reiter- Peter Fred experiment is responsible for a Net Thrust due to 
>heat flow
>and thermoacoustic momentum effects.
>
>  http://www.zts.com/ztreports/vin93a/#Phonon_Scattering

Fred, I scanned the treatise and could not find any mention of the 
violation of Conservation of Momentum that is required to generate such a 
thrust without throwing out any reaction mass/energy.  I'm assuming the 
effect can't possibly be radiation reaction because, for a 30 mg effect, 
he'd have to be radiating about 90,000 watts to get that much thrust (force 
= power/c).


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Little" <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?

Scott wrote:


> At 05:20 AM 4/9/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >This treatise is a good indicator that the phonon-phonon scattering
> >phenomena in the
> >Nick Reiter- Peter Fred experiment is responsible for a Net Thrust due to
> >heat flow
> >and thermoacoustic momentum effects.
> >
> >  http://www.zts.com/ztreports/vin93a/#Phonon_Scattering
>
> Fred, I scanned the treatise and could not find any mention of the
> violation of Conservation of Momentum that is required to generate such a
> thrust without throwing out any reaction mass/energy.  I'm assuming the
> effect can't possibly be radiation reaction because, for a 30 mg effect,
> he'd have to be radiating about 90,000 watts to get that much thrust (force
> = power/c).

It IS NOT power/c, but power/sound velocity, Scott.

Say at 5000W/5000 meters/sec = 1.0 newtons unbalanced force. The inbalance might be
due to
the phonon-phonon scattering difference between the
N and P legs of the device.

Regards,  Frederick

>
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 06:21:46 2001
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Phase II

Construct a panel of Peltier devices and using a suitable power supply, and with the
~1.36 kw/meter^2 Solar Insolation on the heat source side, use it for a phonon-phonon
scattering-thermoacoustic  Space Drive.

OTOH, when you add up all of the forces involved in  the experiment, is this artifact
an electrical/thermal analog of the Dean Space Drive?

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 09:39:16 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ornithopter!
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A project at the University of Toronto's Institute for Aerospace Studies 
has almost succeeded in building a man-carrying ornithopter. Woman-carrying 
in this case. The machine left the ground briefly in September, 1999 during 
a runway test. A full flight test is scheduled for May. The San Francisco 
Chronicle describes the pilot's reaction. "Some of the most terrifying 
moments in her long flying career have come aboard the ornithopter -- 
worse, she says, than the time the single engine on a plane she was flying 
quit and she had to set down in a Michigan cornfield."

See:

http://www.ornithopter.net

Great flight test movies of a scale model and the runway test are at bottom 
of this page:

http://www.ornithopter.net/media_gallery.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 10:55:16 2001
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Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:31:21 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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At 06:08 AM 4/9/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>It IS NOT power/c, but power/sound velocity, Scott.
>
>Say at 5000W/5000 meters/sec = 1.0 newtons unbalanced force.

That certainly makes it better (i.e. lower power) but you still have to 
throw out something in the way of reaction mass/energy in order to get a 
thrust.  Sound waves bouncing back-and-forth inside the Peltier device and 
its associated Cu sheets can't generate ANY net thrust.  Perhaps the effect 
involves a directed emission of sound waves into the air surrounding the 
device.  In other words, it could be an innovative fan technology.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:00:35 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Little" <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?

Scott wrote:


> At 06:08 AM 4/9/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >It IS NOT power/c, but power/sound velocity, Scott.
> >
> >Say at 5000W/5000 meters/sec = 1.0 newtons unbalanced force.
>
> That certainly makes it better (i.e. lower power) but you still have to
> throw out something in the way of reaction mass/energy in order to get a
> thrust.

According to conventional wisdom that is true, but in this case energy flow into and
out of the device makes it a non-closed system.

IOW, it can be considered a heat engine and thus can do work by virtue of it's Carnot
Efficiency (Th-Tc)/Th and conserve momentum and energy by developing a force
and momentum due to this force.

>Sound waves bouncing back-and-forth inside the Peltier device and
> its associated Cu sheets can't generate ANY net thrust.

If it develops 20 to 30 milligrams of force/thrust in vacuum due to phonon-phonon
scattering it's  going to move.

> Perhaps the effect
> involves a directed emission of sound waves into the air surrounding the
> device.

Interesting thought. As the phonons strike the solid-air interface their momentum
changes from E/solid sound velocity to a longer wavelength in air E/Air sound velocity
thus dropping in momentum. So the device must move to
conserve momentum.
>  In other words, it could be an innovative fan technology.

I vote for "passive"  heat engine.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:28:43 2001
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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:23:09 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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Scott -

At 12:31 PM -0500 4/9/01, Scott Little wrote:

>Perhaps the effect involves a directed emission of sound waves into 
>the air surrounding the device.  In other words, it could be an 
>innovative fan technology.

Through the bag and kaowool too?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:49:34 2001
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Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Jed -

That's the dumbest looking death-machine I've seen since the old film 
of the guy on the bicycle with a collection of rockets strapped to 
his ass.

I love the idea of an ornithopter, especially a human-powered one. 
But that ludicrous rig isn't good for anything except efficient 
executions. Puff of wind, bam, you're dead.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:52:01 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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Scott Little wrote:

>That certainly makes it better (i.e. lower power) but you still have to 
>throw out something in the way of reaction mass/energy in order to get a 
>thrust.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the hypothesis here that you do NOT 
need to throw anything out? People here are excited about this device 
because it is an apparent violation of Newton's law. The discussion would 
be pointless otherwise.

Since the gadget is now wrapped in something like cotton wool (I gather), 
and placed inside a plastic bag, it would seem to be impossible for it to 
move air or anything thing else with enough force to register 10s of 
milligrams.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 14:24:31 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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At 10:23 AM 4/9/01 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Scott -
>
>At 12:31 PM -0500 4/9/01, Scott Little wrote:
>
>>Perhaps the effect involves a directed emission of sound waves into the 
>>air surrounding the device.  In other words, it could be an innovative 
>>fan technology.
>
>Through the bag and kaowool too?

No...

(darn, these pesky experimental facts keep getting in the way of perfectly 
good theoretical explanations....<g>)



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 14:44:37 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>That's the dumbest looking death-machine I've seen since the old film of 
>the guy on the bicycle with a collection of rockets strapped to his ass.
>
>I love the idea of an ornithopter, especially a human-powered one. But 
>that ludicrous rig isn't good for anything except efficient executions.

That is more or less what the pilot said after the first airstrip taxi 
tests. You wouldn't catch ME trying to fly the thing, I'll grant.

However, they have greatly improved it. Read the Canadian Aeronautics and 
Space Journal, article, June 1999 in PDF on the web page. The machine has 
safety features such as a built-in rocket launched parachute, which has 
been shown to be effective in ultra-light airplanes.

All in all, it does not seem much more dangerous than other experimental 
ultra-light aircraft, and a lot less dangerous than the Space Shuttle or 
any rocket propelled vehicle. Obviously, it is not intended for practical 
use or long range flight.


>Puff of wind, bam, you're dead.

Obviously they would never attempt to fly when there is wind. Their 
test-flights are at dawn. For the same reason, the Wrights and others 
pioneers never flew in wind, until around 1910. The video of the 
quarter-size scale model shows the machine can be maneuvered and controlled 
remarkably well. It may be able to turn more sharply in a smaller area than 
a conventional airplane. If it turns out to be inherently unstable, 
computer controls might solve the problem.

As the web page explains, there may be practical uses for this technology 
at the other end of the scale, in flying machines the size of insects. They 
might be useful in police work, or during rescue operations. This is 
another example what Mike Carrell talked about the other day: learning from 
nature. There is similar research designing robots to cross rough terrain, 
by shaping them like cockroaches.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 16:25:52 2001
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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
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Subject: Re: Peltier driven thermogravity
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:21:23 -0400
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After seeing Nick's Sunday post, I just remembered that I had run some tests
on various metals shapes that were flat.

I have now posted a test I ran Oct 5, 1999 on an aluminum disc of the same
area as an aluminum colander.  I also have posted the results of tests done
with a colander in the convex-down and convex-up position for comparison.

See

http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm


Peter Fred

"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat"

http://pbfred.tripod.com/

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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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>Scott Little wrote:
>
>>That certainly makes it better (i.e. lower power) but you still have to
>>throw out something in the way of reaction mass/energy in order to get a
>>thrust.
>
>Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the hypothesis here that you do NOT
>need to throw anything out? People here are excited about this device
>because it is an apparent violation of Newton's law. The discussion would
>be pointless otherwise.

***{Not necessarily. Assuming you are talking about Newton's third law (the
law of reaction), the behavior of this device could be anomalous merely due
to its throwing out something surprising in order to get a thrust. For
example, it is generally agreed nowadays that the vacuum is not empty,
though most physicists resist the temptation to call the medium which fills
the space between atoms an *aether*. The reason they do that (in addition
to the desire not to be labeled "kooks") is that aether theories tended to
involve media which were particulate in nature and, thus, capable of being
moved about in accordance with Newton's laws of motion, producing thrust,
whereas most "modern" physicists treat the medium as a continuous
field--i.e., as non-particulate, hence not having any "parts" that can be
pushed, twisted, and shoved about. Thus if the Peltier device somehow
pushes the medium, producing thrust, then that which is violated is not
Newton's laws, but the basic precepts of "modern" physics. Bottom line:
until what is going on within Nick's setup is understood, it will not be
possible to say what theoretical framework it violates, if any. --MJ}***

>Since the gadget is now wrapped in something like cotton wool (I gather),
>and placed inside a plastic bag, it would seem to be impossible for it to
>move air or anything thing else with enough force to register 10s of
>milligrams.

***{Air particles, yes. The "anything else," however, is wrong: if the
medium is particulate, the particles being moved could be vastly smaller
than atoms--small enough, in fact, to pass through the plastic bag and
kaowool as easily as a gnat moves through St. Patrick's Cathedral. --MJ}***

>- Jed
________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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Since Scott doesn't have a ripple tank, this applet can show how a phonon (acoustic
wave) can hit the cold side
and be reflected with momentum 2 mv, and yet cancel with destructive interference with
a wave coming from the heated side with momentum mv. Net result, a thrust in
the direction of heat flow.

 http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/applets/fourier.html

IOW. acoustic waves in a box with momentum E/v are different than EM waves or animated
objects.

I wouldn't bet the store on this, but it is worth the shot.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 18:26:45 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 19:22:28 -0500
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Heat and Work; Newton's 3rd law & Thermodynamics.

The flow of heat through the Peltier device has to have a thermal gradient between the
"plates" or there can be a flow of heat, Q forced by the Peltier "pump".

Newton's law says "each reaction is accompanied by an equal and opposite reaction".

It doesn't say that you Have To throw Mass off to do it.

If the Phonon-Phonon scattering antics are such that there is a Net Thrust, then some
of the antics result in Work, W being done:

dW = dQ(Th-Tc)/Th  where (Th-Tc)/Th is the Carnot efficiency.  If there is a change in
Energy(dQ) leaving the device, then that change has to show up as work (force times
distance) from the device.

Lets put one in space and see if it will fly.

Regards,    Frederick

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Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:06:22 -0500
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Jed:

This is great!  It had my whole office in tears with laughter.

Here in Fort Worth we would like to know some things about this craft.

Our first question is... "Where oh where are the barf bags?"
Question two... "Where do I strap on the saddle?"
Question three... "Do I get points for stain on more then eight seconds?"
Question four "If I ware a hat will it still fly?"
Question five "What about duck hunters?"

Finally.  We would like to pit this test pilot up against the bucking bull 
riders of the PRCA (Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association) I think they 
are havin a get together in Weatherford next month.


Seriously though has anybody considered the square cube law?

At 12:32 PM 4/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>A project at the University of Toronto's Institute for Aerospace Studies 
>has almost succeeded in building a man-carrying ornithopter. 
>Woman-carrying in this case. The


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 19:27:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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Jed wrote:
>Since the gadget is now wrapped in something like cotton wool (I gather), 
>and placed inside a plastic bag, it would seem to be impossible for it to 
>move air or anything thing else with enough force to register 10s of 
>milligrams.

Supposing one side (ie top) of the peltier had access to a larger
volume of air within the plastic bag than the other side, then it
could make that volume of air get warm - generating lift, and then
cold - getting heavier, like a hot air balloon, but going hot and
cold.  Of course fairly quickly the whole thing would get hot due
to the power needed to work the heat pump and would get lighter.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 19:28:19 2001
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Subject: Negative Refraction Material
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Vo,

It looks like new success with that composite negative refraction material
has been achieved:

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010307001208data_trunc_sys.shtml

"7 April 2001
Reversal Of Snell's Law Verified

 Physicists at the University of California, San Diego who last year
produced a new class of composite materials believed to reverse the
behaviour of many fundamental electromagnetic properties associated with
materials, have experimentally verified the first of these predicted
reversals.

Their experiments, detailed in the April 6 issue of Science, demonstrate
that electromagnetic radiation travels through the composite material in a
manner never before seen in nature.

The achievement is much more than a physical curiosity. The new material
could prove useful in the development of novel antennas and other
electromagnetic devices. It may also make possible the construction of a
"perfect lens," capable of focusing light and other forms of radiation to
limits not achievable by normal lenses.

In their experiments, the UCSD physicists built a sample of their material
small enough to fit in a hand out of fibreglass and tiny copper wires. They
then sent microwaves through it-at the same frequency as those used in
police radar guns. What they discovered is exactly what was predicted a year
ago-that the microwaves would emerge from the sample in a direction opposite
to that predicted by Snell's law, which describes the angle of refraction
produced by the slowing of light and other forms of electromagnetic
radiation through water, glass and other ordinary material."

MORE
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010307001208data_trunc_sys.shtml



This may revolutionize radio astronomy as-we-know-it and open up a window to
distant parts of the universe; parts that have never been seen before. On
first reading at least, it would seem so. The article also states that this
meta-material obeys the laws of physics--  yet later goes on to state,

"Another property the material is predicted to reverse is the Doppler
effect, which makes a train whistle sound higher in pitch as it approaches
and lower in pitch as it recedes. According to Maxwell's equations, which
describe the relationship between magnetic and electric fields, microwave
radiation or light from a moving source would show the opposite effect in
this new class of materials, shifting to lower frequencies as a source
approaches and to higher frequencies as it recedes from an observer."

I must be confused. With this material, the frequency is predicted to rise
with a receding light source. But wouldn't that mean that a photon's
"energy" would [also] increase?

Frederick?

Regards,
Colin Quinney





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 23:50:47 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:48:49 +1000
Organization: Improving
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> <v04011700b6f4fa3f1ded [207.8.127.145]> <t49vctgc1q42as7hnsq8dgtr2uhnc8dds0@4ax.com> <v04011700b6f5ab19a458@[207.8.127.6]> <r440dt0e8cu22pi1081risv87ecat2t26i@4ax.com> <v04011701b6f66da26547@[207.8.127.209]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:55:39 -0500:
[snip]
>>Correct, but scaled down (or wrong, depending on how argumentative we
>>are feeling ;). I.e. the local intensity needs to be greater than the
>>local intensity of the Earth's field.
>
>***{We are not here concerned with how intense the antigravity field needs
>to be to provide lift to the ship, Robin. What we are concerned with is how
>intense it needs to be to account for the observed deflection of the
>dayglow photons.

Correct. I slipped up there. Didn't realise it until after I had sent
the message. However the basic idea is the same. My point is that by
analogy, a small magnet can have a much stronger local field than the
Earth does, yet the total field of the Earth is vastly greater. Same
thing when it comes to bending light. What is required is a high
intensity local field, that weakens rapidly as one moves away from the
centre. The overall size of the field however doesn't need to be all
that large. another example, because we are close to it, The Earth's
gravitational field has a much stronger effect on us locally than that
of the Sun, despite the fact that the Sun's field swamps that of the
Earth on a larger scale.
[snip]
>What this means is that if the gravitational deflection of photons by the
>Sun is just barely measurable on Earth, despite the exaggeration due to the
>intervening distance of 93 million miles, it is exceedingly implausible to
>suppose that a tiny alien space ship would exert enough of a push on
>dayglow photons to produce an apparent "hole" having an area of thousands
>of square kilometers, when the distance traveled by the photons to the
>camera after being deflected around the ship was itself just a few thousand
>kilometers. (If you will download Dr. Frank's paper, "On the Influx of

And yet I can achieve a much larger degree of refraction with a simple
magnifying glass that I hold in my hand. It just depends on the actual
field used.
I think the secret of anti-gravity fields lies in the fact that
electromagnetic effects are of the order of 10^40 times stronger than
"normal" gravitational effects. Once the true electromagnetic nature of
gravity is understood, it becomes possible to engineer "anti-gravity"
fields electromagnetically, thereby taking advantage of the
amplification factor, which is why no solar mass is required. I.e. the
mass of the Sun is approx. 2E30 kg. Divide by 10^40, and you get 2E-10
kg. which is the mass of pure charge that would result in the same
distortion of space (I think). 
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 00:42:30 2001
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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: To Scott Little Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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	Does the treatise discuss experimentalism?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 02:01:34 2001
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Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:38:42 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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Robin -

At 4:48 PM +1000 4/10/01, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>My point is that by
>analogy, a small magnet can have a much stronger local field than the
>Earth does, yet the total field of the Earth is vastly greater.

Makes me think of that wire-wrapped electric balloon of Newman's. 
Still kind of intrigued by that. Small field density, but large area 
- ? Sorry, just free associating. <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 02:51:54 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Unumpentium
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:51:03 -0700
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Its suppost to say un-ob'tain-ium

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:32 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Unumpentium

Has anybody ever heard about this element?
http://www.boblazar.com/protected/element.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 02:58:36 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Bolton <bolton@sympatico.ca>,
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Subject: Re: Negative Refraction Material
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	This material is not a chunk of stuff... it is a series of rings
or circles, rods, connecting pieces and so on... similar to sections of a
waveguide.  At certain frequencies, and ONLY at these narrow and limited
frequencies they behave as what they are... filters.... a band reject
filter can toss out a frequency.  In any event, if you put to gether a
complex enough filter-waveguide structure AND you carefully limit the
frequencies of EM radiations exposed to the structures, these are
physical dielectric, conductor and tuned element structures then you will 
...over the narrow range..... exhibit the effects of "negative" Refractive
Index.
	It is VERY cool... it is NOT like a block of glass by any means.

	NOTE:  Do check the word "composite".
					

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> Vo,
> 
> It looks like new success with that composite negative refraction material
> has been achieved:
> 
> http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010307001208data_trunc_sys.shtml
> 
> "7 April 2001
> Reversal Of Snell's Law Verified
> 
>  Physicists at the University of California, San Diego who last year
> produced a new class of composite materials believed to reverse the
> behaviour of many fundamental electromagnetic properties associated with
> materials, have experimentally verified the first of these predicted
> reversals.
> 
> Their experiments, detailed in the April 6 issue of Science, demonstrate
> that electromagnetic radiation travels through the composite material in a
> manner never before seen in nature.
> 
> The achievement is much more than a physical curiosity. The new material
> could prove useful in the development of novel antennas and other
> electromagnetic devices. It may also make possible the construction of a
> "perfect lens," capable of focusing light and other forms of radiation to
> limits not achievable by normal lenses.
> 
> In their experiments, the UCSD physicists built a sample of their material
> small enough to fit in a hand out of fibreglass and tiny copper wires. They
> then sent microwaves through it-at the same frequency as those used in
> police radar guns. What they discovered is exactly what was predicted a year
> ago-that the microwaves would emerge from the sample in a direction opposite
> to that predicted by Snell's law, which describes the angle of refraction
> produced by the slowing of light and other forms of electromagnetic
> radiation through water, glass and other ordinary material."
> 
> MORE
> http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010307001208data_trunc_sys.shtml
> 
> 
> 
> This may revolutionize radio astronomy as-we-know-it and open up a window to
> distant parts of the universe; parts that have never been seen before. On
> first reading at least, it would seem so. The article also states that this
> meta-material obeys the laws of physics--  yet later goes on to state,
> 
> "Another property the material is predicted to reverse is the Doppler
> effect, which makes a train whistle sound higher in pitch as it approaches
> and lower in pitch as it recedes. According to Maxwell's equations, which
> describe the relationship between magnetic and electric fields, microwave
> radiation or light from a moving source would show the opposite effect in
> this new class of materials, shifting to lower frequencies as a source
> approaches and to higher frequencies as it recedes from an observer."
> 
> I must be confused. With this material, the frequency is predicted to rise
> with a receding light source. But wouldn't that mean that a photon's
> "energy" would [also] increase?
> 
> Frederick?
> 
> Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 06:03:49 2001
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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:02:40 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: To Scott Little Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier
 Thermoacoustic Effect?
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At 03:48 AM 4/10/2001 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

>         Does the treatise discuss experimentalism?

I'm not sure what you mean.  Here is the treatise again:

http://www.zts.com/ztreports/vin93a/#Phonon_Scattering


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 07:49:27 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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John Winterflood wrote:

>Supposing one side (ie top) of the peltier had access to a larger
>volume of air within the plastic bag than the other side, then it
>could make that volume of air get warm - generating lift, and then
>cold - getting heavier, like a hot air balloon . . .

No, because the air on the bottom would be getting colder and denser. If 
there is less air below that just means the bottom air gets colder than 
than the upper air gets hot. (If you see what I mean.)

Also, the air may not be free to expand. A plastic bag may be tightly 
wrapped and closed air tight, in which case it acts more like a bottle than 
a balloon. The pressure would go up but the volume of the container would 
not expand. It would not increase buoyancy. A hot air balloon works because 
it is open at the bottom and it pushes air out of the envelope.


>, but going hot and
>cold.  Of course fairly quickly the whole thing would get hot due
>to the power needed to work the heat pump and would get lighter.

I do not think it would get any lighter for the reasons described above, 
but this can be checked easily by replacing the Peltier device with a joule 
heater wrapped in the same bag.

Also, the Peltier device should be turned upside down to see if the weight 
gain becomes a loss, or vice versa.

- Jed

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-
Subject: Re: To Scott Little Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier
Thermoacoustic Effect?


At 03:48 AM 4/10/2001 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

>         Does the treatise discuss experimentalism?

I'm not sure what you mean.  Here is the treatise again:

http://www.zts.com/ztreports/vin93a/#Phonon_Scattering


I do not know if with phonon scattering an antigravity effect has been
observed.  However with "Tibetan Acoustic Levitation" it has.   See
http://www.ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c05-spherlight.htm about three
quarters the way down this long web page.

I do not know what is easier to understand as it relates to the
gravitational force, Phonon Scattering or Tibetan Acoustic Levitation.
However, I hope my Thermal Resistance theory makes producing the gravitation
force in the laboratory much easier to understand than either of the above
two phenomena.

Peter Fred






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 08:30:13 2001
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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:21:22 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Unumpentium
In-Reply-To: <007f01c0c1a3$c1fe6a80$1c962640 bear>
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At 02:51 AM 4/10/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Its suppost to say un-ob'tain-ium
>
>Matt
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
>Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:32 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Unumpentium
>
>Has anybody ever heard about this element?
>http://www.boblazar.com/protected/element.htm


This is a fantasy invention of the Roswel UFO tourism industry.  This  is 
how it works.   Go find a hole in the periodic table.  (just pick 
one)  Ignore the fact that there is a reason for the hole.....     Now that 
you have all of the atomic numbers you simply give the fantasy element a 
name.  Make up some properties that are equally fantastic. You can even 
ignore the valiance properties because the element doesn't actually exist 
anyway.

Just like magic  (also a fantasy)  you have a mystery new element.   Now to 
make it even more fantastic you can explain off why you don't have any of 
it to a cover up conspiracy.
:-)



Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 09:39:37 2001
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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:18:08 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010409205042.00c9a160 postoffice.swbell.net>
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Charles Ford wrote:

>Here in Fort Worth we would like to know some things about this craft.
>
>Our first question is... "Where oh where are the barf bags?"
>Question two... "Where do I strap on the saddle?"

The Canadian Aeronautics and Space Journal notes that they have "extra 
padding" in the seat. No surprise. Also, as in the X-series airplanes that 
first challenged the sound barrier, the pilot notes that the buffeting 
decreases after the plane exceeds a critical speed threshold. (The 
threshold is ~50 mph with the ornithopter, and 0.96 Mach with the X-1.)


>Seriously though has anybody considered the square cube law?

Yes, this is the University of Toronto's Institute for Aerospace Studies 
after all, not a bunch of amateurs.

Interestingly enough, the square cube law was raised repeatedly from 1895 
until 1912 to "prove" that man-carrying airplanes are impossible, and later 
to prove that no airplane will ever carry more than a few hundred pounds, 
or go faster than a railroad steam engine (110 mph). It was finally laid to 
rest in 1914 when Igor Sikorsky carried 16 passengers, and then set a 
distance record carrying 6 passengers for 6 hours 33 minutes. In 1922 a 
Cunard captain again invoked the square cube law to predict: "The simple 
truth is that aerial transport can never be made to pay." He was quite 
right. You could never make a profit with aero-engine technology of 1922.

As I noted, Ornithopter technology may be useful for small devices. Simon 
Newcomb was of the most famous of the many arch-skeptics who fought against 
airplanes as vigorously as Huizenga opposes cold fusion. He cited the 
square cube law to prove that *only* small airplanes can ever be made, on 
the scale of insects or small birds. (Why he did not think of large birds I 
do not know.) He wrote, "the first successful flyer will be the handiwork 
of a watchmaker, and carry nothing heavier than an insect." Perhaps his 
prediction will be fulfilled a century after Kitty Hawk.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 10:39:29 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:31:20 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Peltier Thermogravity or Peltier Thermoacoustic Effect?
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Jed wrote:
>John Winterflood wrote:
>>Supposing one side (ie top) of the peltier had access to a larger
>>volume of air within the plastic bag than the other side, then it
>>could make that volume of air get warm - generating lift, and then
>>cold - getting heavier, like a hot air balloon . . .
>
>No, because the air on the bottom would be getting colder and denser. If 
>there is less air below that just means the bottom air gets colder than 
>than the upper air gets hot. (If you see what I mean.)

If there is mostly solid (ie a metal plate) to absorb the heat at the
bottom, then it won't expand significantly when heat is pumped into
it.  If there is a volume of gas at the top (rather than metal) then
it will expand when heat is pumped into it (and vice-versa when heat
is sucked out).  A plastic bag will not sustain pressure without
expanding unless it is already blown up quite taut (It also won't
sustain a negative pressure without collapsing).

>Also, the Peltier device should be turned upside down to see if the weight 
>gain becomes a loss, or vice versa.

But then the weight of the peltier squashes the gas away from the
underneath back to a large bubble on the top again... and because
the top now has the reversed hot/cold polarity, the weight loss/gain
also reverses!

I'm not suggesting it very seriously.  I would just would like to see
that this possiblity has been properly ruled out somehow.

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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:20:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:55:39 -0500:
>[snip]
>>>Correct, but scaled down (or wrong, depending on how argumentative we
>>>are feeling ;). I.e. the local intensity needs to be greater than the
>>>local intensity of the Earth's field.
>>
>>***{We are not here concerned with how intense the antigravity field needs
>>to be to provide lift to the ship, Robin. What we are concerned with is how
>>intense it needs to be to account for the observed deflection of the
>>dayglow photons.
>
>Correct. I slipped up there. Didn't realise it until after I had sent
>the message. However the basic idea is the same. My point is that by
>analogy, a small magnet can have a much stronger local field than the
>Earth does, yet the total field of the Earth is vastly greater. Same
>thing when it comes to bending light. What is required is a high
>intensity local field, that weakens rapidly as one moves away from the
>centre.

***{That doesn't work because the more rapidly the field drops off as you
move away from the hull of the ship, the more accurately the resulting
photographic image reflects the actual size of the ship. For example, if
the dark spot in the dayglow is the result of photons bouncing off of the
hull of the ship, then the ship will have an average area of 2,000 km^2.
The hull of the ship, after all, is just an electromagnetic field that
drops from a high enough intensity to bounce photons, to zero, in a few
thousandths of a millimeter. Thus if the field intensity is proportional to
1/x^n, where x is the distance from the source of the field (the hull, in
this case), the size of the ship increases as n increases. --MJ}***

The overall size of the field however doesn't need to be all
>that large.

***{The sizes of the spots in the dayglow are hard observational facts that
aren't going to change, and they are composed of two parts: the ship, and
the field surrounding the ship. Result: the smaller the field, the bigger
the ship. --MJ}***

Another example: because we are close to it, the Earth's
>gravitational field has a much stronger effect on us locally than that
>of the Sun, despite the fact that the Sun's field swamps that of the
>Earth on a larger scale.

***{A photon that just skims the surface of Earth will, 93 million miles
later, show many orders of magnitude less deviation from its original path
than will a photon that just skimmed the surface of Sol. --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>What this means is that if the gravitational deflection of photons by the
>>Sun is just barely measurable on Earth, despite the exaggeration due to the
>>intervening distance of 93 million miles, it is exceedingly implausible to
>>suppose that a tiny alien space ship would exert enough of a push on
>>dayglow photons to produce an apparent "hole" having an area of thousands
>>of square kilometers, when the distance traveled by the photons to the
>>camera after being deflected around the ship was itself just a few thousand
>>kilometers. (If you will download Dr. Frank's paper, "On the Influx of
>
>And yet I can achieve a much larger degree of refraction with a simple
>magnifying glass that I hold in my hand. It just depends on the actual
>field used.

***{Yup, but the more rapidly the field drops off, the bigger the ship. :-)
--MJ}***

>I think the secret of anti-gravity fields lies in the fact that
>electromagnetic effects are of the order of 10^40 times stronger than
>"normal" gravitational effects. Once the true electromagnetic nature of
>gravity is understood

***{One can explain many aspects of gravity by simply postulating that the
attraction between unlike charges is ever so slightly greater than the
repulsion between like charges. Unlike the push theory of gravity, however,
such an electromagnetic theory fails to explain other things--e.g., the
observed accelerating expansion of the visible universe, the jets of
particles radiating out along the polar axes of black holes, the lack of a
range limit for photons, etc. If you slog through it all, you will find at
the end that it doesn't work: at root, gravity ain't electromagnetic.
--MJ}***

 , it becomes possible to engineer "anti-gravity"
>fields electromagnetically, thereby taking advantage of the
>amplification factor, which is why no solar mass is required. I.e. the
>mass of the Sun is approx. 2E30 kg. Divide by 10^40, and you get 2E-10
>kg. which is the mass of pure charge that would result in the same
>distortion of space (I think).

***{If all forces are exerted by particles in collision, as the principle
of continuity requires, then space is flat. However, that is an issue for
another day. What you are really saying here, I think, is that the Coulomb
force between a pair of pure charges is about 10^40 times the gravitational
force, so let's run the numbers.

The Coulomb force is Fc = Qq/r^2 and the gravitational force is Fg =
GMm/r^2. Assuming that an electron and a positron are at a distance of r =
10^-10 cm, Fc = Qq/r^2 = (4.8x10^-10)^2/(10^-10)^2 = 23.04 dynes, and Fg =
GMm/r^2 = (6.67x10^-8)(9.11x10^-28)^2/(10^-10)^2 = 5.54x10^-42 dynes. Thus
Fc/Fg = 4.16x10^42.

Conclusion: for pure charges, your number of 1x10^40 is within a couple of
orders of magnitude.

Nevertheless, the smaller the field, the bigger the ship. :-)

Bottom line: the spots in the dayglow are not caused by small alien space
ships. They are caused by small comets (100 ton snowballs) which vaporize
as they enter the atmosphere, expanding into clouds of water vapor
averaging 25 km in radius, which then absorb the dayglow photons,
preventing them from reaching the UV cameras of Dynamics Explorer 1.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:33:04 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Placing the raw humor value aside for a bit.  The smaller model (used in 
the film) does have a sort of natural grace to it.  (My cause for the duck 
hunter concern)  and may be an ideal for the flight of small automated 
devices.   The "bird stealth" may make it ideal for a covert delivery systems.

Although it is a bit of a square wheel.


At 11:18 AM 4/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Ford wrote:
>
>>Here in Fort Worth we would like to know some things about this craft.
>>
>>Our first question is... "Where oh where are the barf bags?"
>>Question two... "Where do I strap on the saddle?"
>
>The Canadian Aeronautics and Space Journal notes that they have "extra 
>padding" in the

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 16:11:45 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: The perfection in all of us...
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Karl Trappe wrote:
> Taking the bait that you are not true to yourself if you fail to do what a
> spammer emplores is just plain manipulative stupidity. Regrettably, you
> place the entire listserve in jeopardy of importing virus laden material.

Exactly!  Guilt-tripping is a common ploy used by the designers of chain
letters.  If chain letters are viruses, then guilt-tripping is the protein
coat section that docks with the cell membrane pore. 

  :)

Regardless of the "goodness" of a message, should we send mail to our
friends which relies on manipulating their emotions to force them to send
it on to others?  I certainly won't send such things to my own friends.  I
have a hyper-sensitive guilt-detector (from childhood), and react to
guilt-tripping like I react to big black spiders in my breakfast cereal. 
The creator of that message is no innocent, and they've flagrantly broken
the Golden Rule in their efforts to teach such things. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 19:43:12 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The perfection in all of us...
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At 04:07 PM 4/10/01 -0700, Bill Beaty wrote:
>Regardless of the "goodness" of a message, should we send mail to our
>friends which relies on manipulating their emotions to force them to send
>it on to others?  I certainly won't send such things to my own friends.  I
>have a hyper-sensitive guilt-detector (from childhood), and react to

Here I must agree.  Manipulation is and always will be in infringement on 
my personal space.  (I choose to delete)  Almost always rooted in 
dishonesty removing the integrity from even the best of apparent 
intentions.  And in the case of the majority (who choose to delete) it is a 
waist of your time to even send it and a waist of the recipient's time to 
have to deal with it.

I have discovered that you can recover energy.  You can recover money.  You 
can recover possessions.  You can even recover love.  Time you can never 
recover.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 19:48:01 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:45:59 +1000
Organization: Improving
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> <v04011700b6f5ab19a458 [207.8.127.6]> <r440dt0e8cu22pi1081risv87ecat2t26i@4ax.com> <v04011701b6f66da26547@[207.8.127.209]> <h1a5dt8ciiqfqjug8vjgcs4v4gcc6154oa@4ax.com> <v04011700b6f8f9eb13c1@[207.8.127.128]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:20:06
-0500:
[snip]
>>thing when it comes to bending light. What is required is a high
>>intensity local field, that weakens rapidly as one moves away from the
>>centre.
>
>***{That doesn't work because the more rapidly the field drops off as you
>move away from the hull of the ship, the more accurately the resulting
>photographic image reflects the actual size of the ship. 

While everything after "because" is true, it doesn't appear to refute my
statement. It just depends on how one defines "rapidly" (i.e. on the
value given to n below.


>For example, if
>the dark spot in the dayglow is the result of photons bouncing off of the
>hull of the ship, then the ship will have an average area of 2,000 km^2.
>The hull of the ship, after all, is just an electromagnetic field that
>drops from a high enough intensity to bounce photons, to zero, in a few
>thousandths of a millimeter. Thus if the field intensity is proportional to
>1/x^n, where x is the distance from the source of the field (the hull, in
>this case), the size of the ship increases as n increases. --MJ}***

so? Since the technology is not currently known to us, we can choose a
value of n and a proportionality constant, to suit the observations.
Try thinking of a situation somewhere in between the two extremes. I.e.
between a normal gravity field on one hand, and a strongly
reflecting/refracting object on the other.

>
>The overall size of the field however doesn't need to be all
>>that large.
>
>***{The sizes of the spots in the dayglow are hard observational facts that
>aren't going to change, and they are composed of two parts: the ship, and
>the field surrounding the ship. Result: the smaller the field, the bigger
>the ship. --MJ}***

By "all that large". I meant it doesn't need to be planet sized. 

>
>Another example: because we are close to it, the Earth's
>>gravitational field has a much stronger effect on us locally than that
>>of the Sun, despite the fact that the Sun's field swamps that of the
>>Earth on a larger scale.
>
>***{A photon that just skims the surface of Earth will, 93 million miles
>later, show many orders of magnitude less deviation from its original path
>than will a photon that just skimmed the surface of Sol. --MJ}***

True, but only because the nature of the field of both objects is the
same.
I don't see gravity as a fundamental force, but rather as a side effect.
Consequently there may be any number of ways of eliminating the side
effect.
[snip]
>***{Yup, but the more rapidly the field drops off, the bigger the ship. :-)

So it just drops off rapidly enough to produce the observed phenomenon.
[snip]
>***{One can explain many aspects of gravity by simply postulating that the
>attraction between unlike charges is ever so slightly greater than the
>repulsion between like charges. 

Yes, that is one approach, however not the approach that I subscribe to.

>Unlike the push theory of gravity, however,
>such an electromagnetic theory fails to explain other things--e.g., the
>observed accelerating expansion of the visible universe, the jets of
>particles radiating out along the polar axes of black holes, the lack of a
>range limit for photons, etc. If you slog through it all, you will find at
>the end that it doesn't work: at root, gravity ain't electromagnetic.

Congratulations, you have pierced the straw man through the heart, and
the wound is mortal :).

[snip]
>Conclusion: for pure charges, your number of 1x10^40 is within a couple of
>orders of magnitude.
>
>Nevertheless, the smaller the field, the bigger the ship. :-)

I must be dense. I think you are going to have to spell out exactly why
you think this is such a telling argument.

>
>Bottom line: the spots in the dayglow are not caused by small alien space
>ships. They are caused by small comets (100 ton snowballs) which vaporize
>as they enter the atmosphere, expanding into clouds of water vapor
>averaging 25 km in radius, which then absorb the dayglow photons,
>preventing them from reaching the UV cameras of Dynamics Explorer 1.


If you didn't think there was even the slightest possibility that I was
right, you wouldn't even bother arguing with me.
It isn't me you are trying to convince, it's yourself. ;)

BTW what makes you think that small comets are the only possible source
of water vapour in the atmosphere?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 20:03:57 2001
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From: "Standing Bear" <rockcast net-link.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Unumpentium
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:05:41 -0400
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Howdy,
    Chemically, the Unp element 115 or whatever would be called
a member of the transactinide series.  There is a laboratory in
Germany that does heavy ion research at Darmstadt.  It is called
Die Gesellschaft Fur Schwerionenforschung.  This lab has produced
the last few of these.  Element 115 has not been reported by them
as yet.  Farther afield, there is some evidence that there is a so
called 'island of stability' among the higher transuranics somewhere
in the vicinity of 145 or so.  It was written up in Scienctific American
about a year or so ago.  I keep old magazines so may still have the
article.  No fantastic claims were made by any of these researchers
about these elements, just that they had fantastically small half-lives.
Typically these elements would decay by spontaneous fission as the
first step on their way down the hill of entropy.
    Personally, I find the idea that an element would decay by 
producing an anti-proton fascinating.  That could make a salty
proposition the manufacture of an element that could even
in very small quantities wipe out an entire state or continent
if you made it wrong.  Feeling ones way in its manufacture
would almost require the right method to be at an
unacceptable cost in lives and property.  We may as a society
feel the need to conduct this type of research.  It would almost
have to be done at a safe distance from our planet so 
collateral damage from the certain mistakes and blind alleys
would not make us extinct.
    How would ordinary matter no matter how unstable produce anti-
matter.  Unless of course one thinks deeper into the basic structure
of matter as complex Schroedinger equations manifesting themselves
as ordered collections of quarks.  If instability extended down to
quark level, then many 'nuclear' reactions would have to be considered.
The energy density needed to access this level of disorder on a sub
particulate level would be immense.   We learn of 6 basic flavors of
quarks in usual undergrad studies, but allusions to hints of others
occasionally are found.  It may prove in the future that 'anti-' and 
ordinary matter are just subsets of a larger, much larger,  catalog
of possible matter types.  Some may come complete with special
physical laws that apply uniquely to it yet also comply with universal
laws that we have yet to devine even as a vague outline.
    One only interested in 'debunking' and disinformation campaigns
and such for whatever reason would probably not consider the above.
Certainly that lab in Darmstadt soldiers on no matter what detractors
in old tennis shoes roosting in basements clacking away on their
modern intel 286-8  microsoft winders three point ones may do or
say.  If they find this animal one day and my uncle in Kaiserslautern
can still write me a Christmas 'Karte', well then more power to them.
Let a million flowers bloom on the quilt of man's studies.  Some
must needs bear fruit.  They will be the future irrefutable 'gods'.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 20:29:47 2001
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From: "Standing Bear" <rockcast net-link.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:30:54 -0400
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Howdy,
    I checked on the 'square cube law'.  It seems to be a kind
of 'snake oil' and means many things to different people.  To
aircraft engineers it is equivalent to what they call the 'glide
ratio'.  It is expressed as a function involving the square of a
plane's weight and the cube of the wing's loaded area. 
Generally, the lower the weight and the larger the wings, the
lower the aircraft's stall speed would be.  
    The aircraft definition makes sense to this old civil engineer.
The elusive, alluded to 'definition' in the posting is unclear to
say the least, and seems more like the way a psychiatrist
contracted to a corporation would tailor his diagnoses to fit
the preconcieved purposes of those who hired him/her.
The man on the street would call it 'bafflement by b.s.'  Some
of those same 'scientists' also could use this and similar
unreason to say the bumblebees could not fly.  Anybody that
believes that is cordially invited to mow my hayfield on a 
hot summers day in July just as these fellas are gettin really
ornery about that darn machine mowin all their food.
    Sometimes it is not so great to have an education and a
little country sense.  One just cannot force themselves to
suspend belief as easy.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 21:57:34 2001
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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:54:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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At 11:30 PM 4/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Howdy,
>     I checked on the 'square cube law'.  It seems to be a kind
>of 'snake oil' and means many things to different people.  To
>aircraft engineers it is equivalent to what they call the 'glide
>ratio'.  It is expressed as a function involving the square of a


The Square Cube Law that I was instructed in was simply this...

As distance varies in a linear manor a cross section varies squared and 
mass varies cubed.

This is a problem with scale model designs.  The are no always able to hold 
them selfs together in full scale.

If you double the detentions of an object this is what happens.

The strength of the materials are determined by the square cross 
section.  so the strength multiples by four.  The mass is determined by the 
cubic volume.  So the mass multiples by eight.

Once you get something big enough it can crush itself under its own weight.

For this reason it is possible to make a ten foot long footbridge out of a 
two by twelve that will support a 250 lbs construction worker.  But if you 
want to scale that up and make a bridge that is 20ft long out of a pine 
plank 24 by 4  it will easily snap under a 2000 lbs weight
Now to take things one step further if you scale up by 4 making a 40 foot 
plank that is 48 by 8 it will break under its own weight.

But I defy you to find a pine tree that is 48 inches wide for a solid 40 
feet of its length. :-)

The scale model problem runs like this.

If the model is made from the same materials as the final aircraft and the 
6 foot wingspan is now 24 feet. (for example)  the materials are about 16 
times as strong but the mass is 64 times the mass of the model.

In unfortunate reality that means that the moving parts undergo 64 tines 
the stress before you even bother to consider the lever ratio of the moving 
wings or the fact that you only have 16 times the wing surface to carry 64 
times the weight.

Finally consider that this thing is a real square wheel.   A square wheel 
will roll when forced to.  but there is already a more efficient, less 
costly and more comfortable technology that bares the test of time.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 10 23:01:24 2001
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References: <v04011700b6f8f9eb13c1 [207.8.127.128]>
 <v04011700b6f0ddb39640 [207.8.127.42]>
 <002801c0be08$59453ee0$3f8f85ce computer>
 <v04011700b6f2df301c64 [207.8.127.117]>
 <v04011701b6f473eef116 [207.8.127.41]>
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 <t49vctgc1q42as7hnsq8dgtr2uhnc8dds0 4ax.com>
 <v04011700b6f5ab19a458 [207.8.127.6]>
 <r440dt0e8cu22pi1081risv87ecat2t26i 4ax.com>
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 <h1a5dt8ciiqfqjug8vjgcs4v4gcc6154oa 4ax.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:50:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"xrsnW2.0.ln3.e5_qw" mx2>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:20:06
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>>thing when it comes to bending light. What is required is a high
>>>intensity local field, that weakens rapidly as one moves away from the
>>>centre.
>>
>>***{That doesn't work because the more rapidly the field drops off as you
>>move away from the hull of the ship, the more accurately the resulting
>>photographic image reflects the actual size of the ship.
>
>While everything after "because" is true, it doesn't appear to refute my
>statement. It just depends on how one defines "rapidly" (i.e. on the
>value given to n below.

***{One problem I see with your hypothesis is that if the dark spots on the
Dynamics Explorer 1 photos are caused by the antigravity fields of alien
space vessels, the spots are going to be visible from the ground, whereas
if they are caused by small comets, they aren't. The difference is that the
spots in the latter case are caused by a mere cloud of water vapor. As
such, they absorb UV but not visible light; hence nobody notices them from
the ground. If they are caused by an alien ship or by the gravity field of
an alien ship, on the other hand, they are going to be visible. (Gravity
doesn't just deflect UV, it deflects all electromagnetic radiation.) In
that case, with a gigantic alien ship appearing every 6 seconds, their
existence would be common knowledge, and we wouldn't be having this
discussion. --MJ}***

>>For example, if
>>the dark spot in the dayglow is the result of photons bouncing off of the
>>hull of the ship, then the ship will have an average area of 2,000 km^2.
>>The hull of the ship, after all, is just an electromagnetic field that
>>drops from a high enough intensity to bounce photons, to zero, in a few
>>thousandths of a millimeter. Thus if the field intensity is proportional to
>>1/x^n, where x is the distance from the source of the field (the hull, in
>>this case), the size of the ship increases as n increases. --MJ}***
>
>So? Since the technology is not currently known to us, we can choose a
>value of n and a proportionality constant, to suit the observations.
>Try thinking of a situation somewhere in between the two extremes--i.e.
>between a normal gravity field on the one hand, and a strongly
>reflecting/refracting object on the other.

***{OK: the ship has a diameter of 10 meters, and the antigravity field has
a diameter of 25 miles. What's wrong with this picture? Simple: the
antigravity field has to deflect UV photons, but not visible ones, in order
to not give the appearance of a disk with a radius of 25 km to observers on
the ground. Unfortunately, gravity/antigravity affects all photons alike,
so the antigravity field goes on the scrap heap, like the gravity field
that preceded it. --MJ}***

>>The overall size of the field however doesn't need to be all
>>>that large.
>>
>>***{The sizes of the spots in the dayglow are hard observational facts that
>>aren't going to change, and they are composed of two parts: the ship, and
>>the field surrounding the ship. Result: the smaller the field, the bigger
>>the ship. --MJ}***
>
>By "all that large". I meant it doesn't need to be planet sized.

***{True: the field has to be 25  km in radius, on average, because that's
the size of the average dayglow spot. --MJ}***

>>Another example: because we are close to it, the Earth's
>>>gravitational field has a much stronger effect on us locally than that
>>>of the Sun, despite the fact that the Sun's field swamps that of the
>>>Earth on a larger scale.
>>
>>***{A photon that just skims the surface of Earth will, 93 million miles
>>later, show many orders of magnitude less deviation from its original path
>>than will a photon that just skimmed the surface of Sol. --MJ}***
>
>True, but only because the nature of the field of both objects is the
>same.
>I don't see gravity as a fundamental force, but rather as a side effect.
>Consequently there may be any number of ways of eliminating the side
>effect.
>[snip]
>>***{Yup, but the more rapidly the field drops off, the bigger the ship. :-)
>
>So it just drops off rapidly enough to produce the observed phenomenon.

***{How can it? The observed phenomenon--i.e., the dayglow spots--is UV
only: the visible light comes through without deflection. A
gravity/antigravity field, on the other hand, would affect all types of
electromagnetic radiation, rather than merely UV. --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>***{One can explain many aspects of gravity by simply postulating that the
>>attraction between unlike charges is ever so slightly greater than the
>>repulsion between like charges.
>
>Yes, that is one approach, however not the approach that I subscribe to.
>
>>Unlike the push theory of gravity, however,
>>such an electromagnetic theory fails to explain other things--e.g., the
>>observed accelerating expansion of the visible universe, the jets of
>>particles radiating out along the polar axes of black holes, the lack of a
>>range limit for photons, etc. If you slog through it all, you will find at
>>the end that it doesn't work: at root, gravity ain't electromagnetic.
>
>Congratulations, you have pierced the straw man through the heart, and
>the wound is mortal :).

***{Good. I hate straw men! --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>Conclusion: for pure charges, your number of 1x10^40 is within a couple of
>>orders of magnitude.
>>
>>Nevertheless, the smaller the field, the bigger the ship. :-)
>
>I must be dense. I think you are going to have to spell out exactly why
>you think this is such a telling argument.

***{These dayglow spots appear at an average rate of about 1 every 6
seconds. If each one of them is an alien space vessel entering or leaving
the atmosphere of Earth, they have to conform to the types of sightings
that people report, which means a radius of a few thousand meters, max.
(The Phoenix sighting of a few years ago was the largest I remember, and
the reports claimed the thing was about a mile in diameter.) However, if
the alien vessels are no more than one or two kilometers in radius, then
the 25 km radius of the antigravity field that they put out seems a bit
much, don't you think? (The shields of the starship Enterprise are much
closer to the hull than that, in case you haven't noticed. :-) --MJ}***

>>Bottom line: the spots in the dayglow are not caused by small alien space
>>ships. They are caused by small comets (100 ton snowballs) which vaporize
>>as they enter the atmosphere, expanding into clouds of water vapor
>>averaging 25 km in radius, which then absorb the dayglow photons,
>>preventing them from reaching the UV cameras of Dynamics Explorer 1.
>
>
>If you didn't think there was even the slightest possibility that I was
>right, you wouldn't even bother arguing with me.
>It isn't me you are trying to convince, it's yourself. ;)

***{Why would I be trying to convince myself? It is a matter of
indifference to me what I believe, providing that my beliefs are true.
Instead, I argue because the only way true beliefs differ from false ones
is that they withstand the test of argument. Result: I constantly seek to
undermine my own beliefs by concocting arguments against them, and I try to
encourage others--e.g., you--to attack my beliefs as well. That's why, when
someone takes a position that seems silly to me, my inclination is to test
his position (and thus mine) by arguing against it, rather than to simply
say nothing. After all, if the other person can defend his seemingly silly
opinion, then by remaining silent I will pass up an opportunity to improve
my understanding of the world. And even if he cannot adequately defend his
position, we will both see the issue more clearly after the exchange than
we did before. Bottom line: I argue to improve my understanding, rather
than to convince myself or to convince others. --MJ}***

>BTW what makes you think that small comets are the only possible source
>of water vapour in the atmosphere?

***{I don't think they are, obviously. (Ever heard of *evaporation*? :-)
However, it does not seem reasonable to me that the spots on the dayglow
photos are due to evaporation. However, if you think a case can be made
along those lines, let's hear it. --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

***{By the way: it is obvious at this point that you can now abandon the
antigravity field concept in favor of some sort of hypothetical field that
deflects UV and above while passing everything else. Result: you can claim
that every dayglow spot is an alien space vessel entering or leaving
Earth's atmosphere, and by such means you can explain away the dayglow
spots without recourse to the small comet theory. However, there is still a
problem--to wit: where do you think big comets come from? (Do you think
they appear full-blown out of nothing, or that they are the result of a
gradual process of aggregation? Inquiring minds want to know!) --MJ}***

>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 01:14:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:12:38 +1000
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om> <v04011701b6f66da26547 [207.8.127.209]> <h1a5dt8ciiqfqjug8vjgcs4v4gcc6154oa@4ax.com> <v04011700b6f8f9eb13c1@[207.8.127.128]> <7gf7dtga8u34t2bjvp0tf1pmd07bm7q378@4ax.com> <v04011702b6f97edb44ab@[207.8.127.6]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:50:19
-0500:
[snip]
>***{One problem I see with your hypothesis is that if the dark spots on the
>Dynamics Explorer 1 photos are caused by the antigravity fields of alien
>space vessels, the spots are going to be visible from the ground, whereas
>if they are caused by small comets, they aren't. The difference is that the
>spots in the latter case are caused by a mere cloud of water vapor. As
>such, they absorb UV but not visible light; hence nobody notices them from
>the ground. 

Now this is a more convincing argument.
[snip]
>we did before. Bottom line: I argue to improve my understanding, rather
>than to convince myself or to convince others. --MJ}***

An admirable approach.

>
>>BTW what makes you think that small comets are the only possible source
>>of water vapour in the atmosphere?
>
>***{I don't think they are, obviously. (Ever heard of *evaporation*? :-)
>However, it does not seem reasonable to me that the spots on the dayglow
>photos are due to evaporation. 

Why not, it seems perhaps the most reasonable explanation to me (despite
my penchant for UFOs :)


>However, if you think a case can be made
>along those lines, let's hear it. --MJ}***


It isn't so much that I can make a such a case, it's more that I think
that with all the time that astronauts have logged in orbit, at least
some of them would have noticed so many comets arriving, as they catch
the sun, and before they hit the atmosphere.
IOW I have trouble believing that the source is extra-terrestrial. OTOH
I think they have been told to keep their mouth shut about alien
vessels.
[snip]
>***{By the way: it is obvious at this point that you can now abandon the
>antigravity field concept in favor of some sort of hypothetical field that
>deflects UV and above while passing everything else. Result: you can claim
>that every dayglow spot is an alien space vessel entering or leaving
>Earth's atmosphere, and by such means you can explain away the dayglow
>spots without recourse to the small comet theory. However, there is still a
>problem--to wit: where do you think big comets come from? (Do you think
>they appear full-blown out of nothing, or that they are the result of a
>gradual process of aggregation? Inquiring minds want to know!) --MJ}***

Like Zecharia Sitchin, I believe that most of the comets were formed
when Tiamat (which had vast oceans like the Earth) was destroyed.
However I think there are probably also a few left over from the
formation of the solar system.
BTW there is an article called "Neptune Attacks!" in NS of 7 April which
is all about what might be physical evidence of Sitchin's story, though
with a somewhat different slant.
Some comets thus undoubtedly formed through aggregation, though many did
not.
(..and yes, I do believe that small comets exist, I just have difficulty
believing that so many of them could be hitting the Earth with such
frequency, without anyone noticing, until black spots are picked up on
UV photos).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 04:56:18 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive?
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:53:33 -0500
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According to some rough calculations, one can mount a
4 inch speaker on a coffee can (sealed in place) or a 16 inch woofer on a barrel, and
set this contrivance on a balance in a vacuum and pour the coal to it and at the right
frequency get a net force from it.

120 db = 1 x 10^-4 watts/cm^2 , and 200 dynes/cm^2.

OTOH, Ross Tessian might lend you an ultrasonic driver
and you can use a smaller can.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 05:56:49 2001
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Message-ID: <3AD45628.2BA3AD59 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:03:36 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> At 11:30 PM 4/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Howdy,
> >     I checked on the 'square cube law'.  It seems to be a kind
> >of 'snake oil' and means many things to different people.  To
> >aircraft engineers it is equivalent to what they call the 'glide
> >ratio'.  It is expressed as a function involving the square of a
> 
> The Square Cube Law that I was instructed in was simply this...
> 
> As distance varies in a linear manor a cross section varies squared and
> mass varies cubed.

It's also why overweight people perspire more.  Volume increases
by the cube of the radius; but, surface area increases by the
square.  Thus, the efficiency of their evaporative cooling system
decreases with size.

Terry
<down to 220#>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 06:29:30 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:28:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
In-Reply-To: <3AD45628.2BA3AD59 bellsouth.net>
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At 09:03 AM 4/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > As distance varies in a linear manor a cross section varies squared and
> > mass varies cubed.
>
>It's also why overweight people perspire more.  Volume increases
>by the cube of the radius; but, surface area increases by the
>square.  Thus, the efficiency of their evaporative cooling system
>decreases with size.
>
>Terry
><down to 220#>


Hmmm   never thought of that.  This should also explain why my 
wife  (105lbs and quite tiny) has a great deal of difficulty staying 
warm.   Or maybe she is dropping a hint.  :-)


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 06:43:15 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:48:52 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Monteverde and other Vorts,

An Atlanta firm might have been reading Rick's messages.  While
it's not an internet robot, it *is* an internet appliance named
Ginger:

http://www.gingerinteractive.com/

The CEO actually gives his cell phone number on the site!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 08:03:05 2001
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive?
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Fred Sparber said:


> According to some rough calculations, one can mount a
> 4 inch speaker on a coffee can (sealed in place) or a 16 inch woofer on a
barrel, and
> set this contrivance on a balance in a vacuum and pour the coal to it and
at the right
> frequency get a net force from it.

What this overlooks is that if you place the contrivance as stated in a
vacuum, the air pressure inside the can will rupture either cone and all you
will do is fry the voice coil. If you used a rugged woofer with an aluminum
cone, you would at least drive the voice coil out of the airgap and again
fry the voice coil.

Back to the drawing board for another transducer design.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive?


Agreed Mike.  

But those boom boxes in those low rider  cars need to 
be sent somewhere off the planet.

Fred

> Fred Sparber said:
> 
> 
> > According to some rough calculations, one can mount a
> > 4 inch speaker on a coffee can (sealed in place) or a 16 inch woofer on a
> barrel, and
> > set this contrivance on a balance in a vacuum and pour the coal to it and
> at the right
> > frequency get a net force from it.
> 
> What this overlooks is that if you place the contrivance as stated in a
> vacuum, the air pressure inside the can will rupture either cone and all you
> will do is fry the voice coil. If you used a rugged woofer with an aluminum
> cone, you would at least drive the voice coil out of the airgap and again
> fry the voice coil.
> 
> Back to the drawing board for another transducer design.
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 08:31:27 2001
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Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Charles Ford wrote:

>The Square Cube Law that I was instructed in was simply this...
>
>As distance varies in a linear manor a cross section varies squared and 
>mass varies cubed.
>
>This is a problem with scale model designs.  The are no always able to 
>hold them selfs together in full scale.

Right. That is why there are no birds the size of elephants. There is an 
extinct bird, Argentavis magnificens, with an 8 m wingspan, but the body 
weight was probably only that a small mammal. That is also why Langley was 
able to make large steam driven flying models in the 1890s, but he could 
not scale up in 1903.

The limitation at the opposite end of the scale, below 5 mm or so, is the 
viscosity of air.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:15:12 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive
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One of these "shake tables" should do it, Mike.

 http://www.mbdynamics.com/pm_shakers.htm

FJS



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:19:43 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "prj" <prj mail.msen.com>, "DEACH" <DEACH@topica.com>,
        "keys" <keys-l spiritweb.org>, "vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: <rhf rhfweb.com>
Subject: Schematics (Metrers, Force Fields), & Positive Thinking
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:30:33 -0700
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Schematics (Metrers, Force Fields), & Positive Thinking

I have found some detailed schematics which show how to
build meters, and force fields based on the theories of using
artificial energies obtained from utilizing time energies from
the past and the future, and expressing them in terms of hyper-
vectors or quaternions or higher topologies.  The schematics
and designs are located at the following web site under the
links associated with Russian scalar electromagnetic pulsed
Tesla radar devices which utilize gravity or time-space waves::

Tom Bearden's web site

http://www.cheniere.org- 

It is also important to note, that the directed energy victims
who may have been targeted with time energies, may have a
time-space-gravity bubble around their bodies which amplifies
normal positive and negative mental energies by utilizing the
energies from the future and the past. So 10 million mind
control victims may each have a thousand times more gravity
energy per person, which gives them collectively 10 million
times 1000 = 100 Billion people in terms of psychic energy,
which is far greater than the rest of the psychic energies of the
other peoples of the earth. If the 10 million directed energy
victims can think positively (redirecting their thoughts
outwards into their environment to change it positively) rather
than thinking negatively ( collecting energy through pain which
redirects the energy into the body rather than into the
environment.), they could cause the energies of the future to
change the laws and the environment so that directed energies
are not used on people in experimentation or to repress them;
and so that we all live together as free individuals in
cooperative positive peaceful harmony. The future can change
despite all the false negative prophesies of the past


Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at
http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom
Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:32:40 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:28:12 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Ginger Interactive
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I want my internet shuttle arm, and even a lovely Mondrain 1959 style 
website designed by Marilyn Monroe isn't going to change my mind.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Monteverde and other Vorts,
>
>An Atlanta firm might have been reading Rick's messages.  While
>it's not an internet robot, it *is* an internet appliance named
>Ginger:
>
>http://www.gingerinteractive.com/
>
>The CEO actually gives his cell phone number on the site!
>
>Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:36:35 2001
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Jed -

>Right. That is why there are no birds the size of elephants. There 
>is an extinct bird, Argentavis magnificens, with an 8 m wingspan, 
>but the body weight was probably only that a small mammal.

Some of us wackies think that might have been an animal humans used 
to ride, and drove to extinction in wars thousands of years ago.

>That is also why Langley was able to make large steam driven flying 
>models in >the 1890s, but he could not scale up in 1903.
>
>The limitation at the opposite end of the scale, below 5 mm or so, 
>is the viscosity of air.

Makes me wonder why there aren't tiny airworms or screwflies or 
something. And I'm damn glad there aren't! (At least I *hope* there 
aren't - ridiculous Escamilla videos of bugs not withstanding?)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:39:26 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:21:38 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: 120 decibel Space Drive?
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Frederick -

>According to some rough calculations, one can mount a
>4 inch speaker on a coffee can (sealed in place) or a 16 inch woofer 
>on a barrel, and
>set this contrivance on a balance in a vacuum and pour the coal to 
>it and at the right
>frequency get a net force from it.

According to even rougher calculations, there's no net force.

There's a sealed coffee can in space filled with small ball bearings 
bouncing around inside with nearly perfect elastic collisions. One 
end of the can suddenly gets sticky, and in a very short time, all 
the balls end up stuck to that end. Does the can accelerate and 
continue moving forever, or does it move about half a can length and 
stop?

During the time the balls are accumulating at one end, there is a net 
force as the can tries to adjust to the changing mass within it. 
Perhaps this is the force seen moving the balance in these 
heating/cooling experiments?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>
>120 db = 1 x 10^-4 watts/cm^2 , and 200 dynes/cm^2.
>
>OTOH, Ross Tessian might lend you an ultrasonic driver
>and you can use a smaller can.  :-)
>
>Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 09:49:07 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Schematics (Metrers, Force Fields), & Positive Thinking
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Gnorts -

Well, there might be just a *few* assumptions and conjectures strung 
together there which would all have to prove true to get to home 
plate in that argument, not the least significant of which is that 
there'd have to be at least a grain of truth to the 'scalar weapons' 
material on Mr. Bearden's web site. Other than that, I'd agree that a 
little positive thinking can go a long way, the Universe does have a 
way of taking care of its friends, and 'it' even plays some pretty 
clever practical jokes on them sometimes.   :)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Schematics (Metrers, Force Fields), & Positive Thinking
<snip>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 12:01:17 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
cc: tap-l listproc.appstate.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Spiders, in the interest of science, HUMOR Re: The perfection in all , of us...
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	Dear Bill,

	If there is a spider in your cereal please examine to see if it is
Eating the cereal, and, if yes, if it appears well fed and healthy.
	We would all welcome a simple sourcee of spider food as catching
flies, while entertaining at times and a good builder of hand-eye
coordination, is time consuming.
	On the other hand.  A good engineering exercise for students is an
assignment to build an active, tracking "humane" fly catching system.

					J

	PS:  Boriss the spider thanks you.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, William Beaty wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Apr 2001, Karl Trappe wrote:
> > Taking the bait that you are not true to yourself if you fail to do what a
> > spammer emplores is just plain manipulative stupidity. Regrettably, you
> > place the entire listserve in jeopardy of importing virus laden material.
> 
> Exactly!  Guilt-tripping is a common ploy used by the designers of chain
> letters.  If chain letters are viruses, then guilt-tripping is the protein
> coat section that docks with the cell membrane pore. 
> 
>   :)
> 
> Regardless of the "goodness" of a message, should we send mail to our
> friends which relies on manipulating their emotions to force them to send
> it on to others?  I certainly won't send such things to my own friends.  I
> have a hyper-sensitive guilt-detector (from childhood), and react to
> guilt-tripping like I react to big black spiders in my breakfast cereal. 
> The creator of that message is no innocent, and they've flagrantly broken
> the Golden Rule in their efforts to teach such things. 
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 12:01:31 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:48:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Resent-Message-ID: <"KiWk02.0.Co4.pTArw" mx1>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:50:19
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>***{One problem I see with your hypothesis is that if the dark spots on the
>>Dynamics Explorer 1 photos are caused by the antigravity fields of alien
>>space vessels, the spots are going to be visible from the ground, whereas
>>if they are caused by small comets, they aren't. The difference is that the
>>spots in the latter case are caused by a mere cloud of water vapor. As
>>such, they absorb UV but not visible light; hence nobody notices them from
>>the ground.
>
>Now this is a more convincing argument.
>[snip]
>>we did before. Bottom line: I argue to improve my understanding, rather
>>than to convince myself or to convince others. --MJ}***
>
>An admirable approach.

***{Is it admirable to exhibit a trait that, in a rational world, would be
normal and routine? I think not. My view is that we live on a brutal,
backwater world, inhabited by dumbed-down virtual savages, who are so
obsessed with how they appear to others that, in virtually all cases, they
are utterly incapable of focusing on what is right rather than on who is
right. Result: it is almost impossible to have a decent conversation with
anyone.

Bottom line: the proper assessment is not that it is admirable to focus on
what is right rather than on who is right, but that it is despicable to
fail to do so.

Here on Earth, unfortunately, being despicable is the norm.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>>BTW what makes you think that small comets are the only possible source
>>>of water vapour in the atmosphere?
>>
>>***{I don't think they are, obviously. (Ever heard of *evaporation*? :-)
>>However, it does not seem reasonable to me that the spots on the dayglow
>>photos are due to evaporation.
>
>Why not, it seems perhaps the most reasonable explanation to me (despite
>my penchant for UFOs :)

***{What is up there to evaporate, other than incoming small comets? [Note:
the dayglow layer is in the ionosphere, which stretches from roughly 80 km
to 300 km. In that region, gases are ionized by incoming solar radiation
and, when the dissociated components get back together, many photons are
emitted in the UV range. When those photons happen to be traveling upward,
they can reach the UV cameras aboard Dynamics Explorer 1, where they appear
as a glow in the resulting image. Thus it is only if there is a cloud of
water vapor between the ionosphere and Dynamics Explorer 1 that dayglow
photons will be absorbed, leaving a dark spot on the photo.] --MJ}***

>>However, if you think a case can be made
>>along those lines, let's hear it. --MJ}***
>
>
>It isn't so much that I can make a such a case, it's more that I think
>that with all the time that astronauts have logged in orbit, at least
>some of them would have noticed so many comets arriving, as they catch
>the sun, and before they hit the atmosphere.

***{According to prevailing theory (the Whipple model), comets are giant
dirty snowballs. They consist of frozen water, carbon dioxide, methane, and
ammonia, with a small percentage of embedded dust, and are encrusted with a
layer that is mostly soot (carbon). Result: they are black and hence not
visible against the black background of space, until they come close enough
to the sun for internal heating to result in degassing. Degassing breaches
the black crust and ejects dust and debris which the solar wind causes to
flow away from the comet's core and away from the sun. The result is a
"tail" that catches the sun's rays and renders the comet spectacularly
visible in the night sky, though unless it is unusually large it will *not*
be visible in the day sky. Since comets the size of a house are not large,
and since the dayglow only shows up on the day side of Earth, there is no
reason to expect incoming small comets to be visible to astronauts or to
anyone else. --MJ}***

>IOW I have trouble believing that the source is extra-terrestrial. OTOH
>I think they have been told to keep their mouth shut about alien
>vessels.

***{I agree that if there are alien vessels, it is to be expected that
tyrannical governments--which are the only kind we have on Earth at
present--will try to cover up that fact. The reason: these brutal regimes
are presently worshipped by their pathetic, dumbed-down victims as if they
are gods, and it is precisely this state of mindless adoration which
permits wholesale theft, slaughter, and oppression to continue on a global
scale. However, if the populace were to discover that there are higher
powers--that there are, in fact, alien civilizations which are vastly more
technologically advanced and powerful than our own--then Earth-based
governments would lose their supreme status and would cease to be virtually
exempt from criticism in the average person's mind. Bottom line: if
advanced extraterrestrials are visiting Earth (a hypothesis that is not
proven) you can bet your bottom dollar that Earth-based governments are
doing their best to cover up that state of affairs.

However, the question of whether alien vessels are the cause of the dayglow
spots must be decided by looking at the evidence; and on that basis, I
think the small comet theory wins hands down.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>[snip]
>>***{By the way: it is obvious at this point that you can now abandon the
>>antigravity field concept in favor of some sort of hypothetical field that
>>deflects UV and above while passing everything else. Result: you can claim
>>that every dayglow spot is an alien space vessel entering or leaving
>>Earth's atmosphere, and by such means you can explain away the dayglow
>>spots without recourse to the small comet theory. However, there is still a
>>problem--to wit: where do you think big comets come from?

***{Another problem is that the seasonal pattern of distribution of the
dayglow spots tracks the seasonal variation in meteor frequency. This
supports the small comet theory, but does not support the alien vessel
theory. (Aliens would be unlikely to schedule their comings and goings to
peak when there is maximal danger that they would be hit by meteors!)
--MJ}***

(Do you think
>>they appear full-blown out of nothing, or that they are the result of a
>>gradual process of aggregation? Inquiring minds want to know!) --MJ}***
>
>Like Zecharia Sitchin, I believe that most of the comets were formed
>when Tiamat (which had vast oceans like the Earth) was destroyed.

***{That begs the question, and the question is this: if Tiamat had vast
oceans like Earth, where did they come from? (The answer: small comets! :-)
--MJ}***

>However I think there are probably also a few left over from the
>formation of the solar system.

***{Prevailing theory places the origin of comets in the Oort cloud, which
is a supposed vast spherical shell consisting of tens of billions of
comets, orbiting the sun at an average distance of about a light year. When
perturbed by a passing star, the Oort cloud bombards the inner solar system
with comets and, in the process, explains a vast amount of geological and
paleontological data having to do with mass extinctions. (The asteroid that
killed the dinosaurs, for example, is now thought to have been a comet.)
--MJ}***

>BTW there is an article called "Neptune Attacks!" in NS of 7 April which
>is all about what might be physical evidence of Sitchin's story, though
>with a somewhat different slant.
>Some comets thus undoubtedly formed through aggregation, though many did
>not.
>(..and yes, I do believe that small comets exist, I just have difficulty
>believing that so many of them could be hitting the Earth with such
>frequency, without anyone noticing, until black spots are picked up on
>UV photos).

***{It is not surprising that they are not being noticed, for the reasons
given above. --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 12:33:26 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Logic Request....New Energy...Re: Ornithopter!
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	And no elephants the size of birds... which fits exactly with some
of the New Energy logic I have seen over the years.

	Request:

	I am looking for examples of logic for the workings of New energy
that either, are absurd, false, or are examples of pitfalls in thinking so
as to make a sort of FAQ...of 'don't get trapped here" ..
	Example:

	1]	A motor is hooked to a fan.... the fan makes wind for wind
mill, the windmill drive generator.

	2]	(less obvious)	A wheel of wood is made with circle of
magnets all around it ... all of the poles a North facing and at slight
angle ... this will turn forever if a fixed North pole pf a magnet is
presented to the wheel.

						Thanks....

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Jed -
> 
> >Right. That is why there are no birds the size of elephants. There 
> >is an extinct bird, Argentavis magnificens, with an 8 m wingspan, 
> >but the body weight was probably only that a small mammal.
> 
> Some of us wackies think that might have been an animal humans used 
> to ride, and drove to extinction in wars thousands of years ago.
> 
> >That is also why Langley was able to make large steam driven flying 
> >models in >the 1890s, but he could not scale up in 1903.
> >
> >The limitation at the opposite end of the scale, below 5 mm or so, 
> >is the viscosity of air.
> 
> Makes me wonder why there aren't tiny airworms or screwflies or 
> something. And I'm damn glad there aren't! (At least I *hope* there 
> aren't - ridiculous Escamilla videos of bugs not withstanding?)
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 12:52:03 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Subject: Warpo?  120 decibel Space Drive?
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	Harpo's Uncle?  ... no... joke...

	Someone may make the partial connection of the "timed"
acceleration of M. Woodward's nifty experiments. 



	

	Completely unconnected observation:

  Internet is VERY much
like the game of "telephone" wherein a line of people pass on a message,
by 'word of mouth'  and what may start at one end of a line of 30 people
as:  "Please hand me the hammer."  can easily become "We should all do
away with Spammers".
	Only.... on Internet things can get MUCH worse and quick.... just
put up a ver GOOD looking page, make sure there are some sincere sounding
academic references, real ones, gathered from Google searches... and Les
Voila! It is legitimate!

	

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Frederick -
> 
> >According to some rough calculations, one can mount a
> >4 inch speaker on a coffee can (sealed in place) or a 16 inch woofer 
> >on a barrel, and
> >set this contrivance on a balance in a vacuum and pour the coal to 
> >it and at the right
> >frequency get a net force from it.
> 
> According to even rougher calculations, there's no net force.
> 
> There's a sealed coffee can in space filled with small ball bearings 
> bouncing around inside with nearly perfect elastic collisions. One 
> end of the can suddenly gets sticky, and in a very short time, all 
> the balls end up stuck to that end. Does the can accelerate and 
> continue moving forever, or does it move about half a can length and 
> stop?
> 
> During the time the balls are accumulating at one end, there is a net 
> force as the can tries to adjust to the changing mass within it. 
> Perhaps this is the force seen moving the balance in these 
> heating/cooling experiments?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> >
> >120 db = 1 x 10^-4 watts/cm^2 , and 200 dynes/cm^2.
> >
> >OTOH, Ross Tessian might lend you an ultrasonic driver
> >and you can use a smaller can.  :-)
> >
> >Regards,  Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 13:00:53 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Some of us wackies think that might have been an animal humans used to 
>ride, and drove to extinction in wars thousands of years ago.

Ah yes, in the Miocene Wars, if you can cast your mind back that far. It 
might have been before your time. See:

http://www.grisda.org/origins/07087.htm

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/guadeloupe.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 15:58:06 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:56:47 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!
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Jed -

Miocene? Wasn't thinking that far back (I have trouble with last 
Thursday). These birds might have lived more recently, in the 10K to 
20K years ago range perhaps. Fossils sometimes don't date easily. And 
just because fossils were found from a certain age only means that 
the animal lived at that time, which doesn't say much about how long 
it survived after that. Case in point, Coelacanth.

Another thing - what if there was a Big Bat? What if he's still 
around - rare, swamp dwelling, and shy. You know the one I'm talking 
about. <g> My real interest is in the wings such an animal would 
have. I've seen big fruit bats flying in large flocks - what an 
amazing sight. So I'd love to know the engineering particulars of Mr. 
Pazuzu, if one could ever be found, live or fossil.

I've built and flown hang gliders, and the best learning environment 
for experimental designs are the windy sand dunes. You can ridge-soar 
the dunes with a pretty small wing area on a windy day. A friend of 
mine once built a very small wing as an experiment, not much more 
area than a big sailboard rig. Wouldn't quite soar, but then it was a 
fixed wing. If there had been a facility for some sort of 
autorotation or sprung flapping...

[this ought to be moved to Vortex-B, for B-ig B-ird]

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>Ah yes, in the Miocene Wars, if you can cast your mind back that 
>far. It might have been before your time. See:
>
>http://www.grisda.org/origins/07087.htm
>
>http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/guadeloupe.html
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 19:27:30 2001
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:24:04 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Peltier madness
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Nick, I took a stab at your horizontal heat flow concept...

http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/horiz.html

I'm afraid that my results bear no resemblance to the really intriguing and 
large results you posted here recently.

I hope you can point out what I'm doing wrong.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

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-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?


>>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:50:19
>>-0500:
>>[snip]
>>>***{One problem I see with your hypothesis is that if the dark spots on
the
>>>Dynamics Explorer 1 photos are caused by the antigravity fields of alien
>>>space vessels, the spots are going to be visible from the ground, whereas
>>>if they are caused by small comets, they aren't. The difference is that
the
>>>spots in the latter case are caused by a mere cloud of water vapor. As
>>>such, they absorb UV but not visible light; hence nobody notices them
from
>>>the ground.
>>
>>Now this is a more convincing argument.
>>[snip]
>>>we did before. Bottom line: I argue to improve my understanding, rather
>>>than to convince myself or to convince others. --MJ}***
>>
>>An admirable approach.
>
>***{Is it admirable to exhibit a trait that, in a rational world, would be
>normal and routine? I think not. My view is that we live on a brutal,
>backwater world, inhabited by dumbed-down virtual savages, who are so
>obsessed with how they appear to others that, in virtually all cases, they
>are utterly incapable of focusing on what is right rather than on who is
>right. Result: it is almost impossible to have a decent conversation with
>anyone.
>
>Bottom line: the proper assessment is not that it is admirable to focus on
>what is right rather than on who is right, but that it is despicable to
>fail to do so.
>
>Here on Earth, unfortunately, being despicable is the norm.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>>>BTW what makes you think that small comets are the only possible source
>>>>of water vapour in the atmosphere?
>>>
>>>***{I don't think they are, obviously. (Ever heard of *evaporation*? :-)
>>>However, it does not seem reasonable to me that the spots on the dayglow
>>>photos are due to evaporation.
>>
>>Why not, it seems perhaps the most reasonable explanation to me (despite
>>my penchant for UFOs :)
>
>***{What is up there to evaporate, other than incoming small comets? [Note:
>the dayglow layer is in the ionosphere, which stretches from roughly 80 km
>to 300 km. In that region, gases are ionized by incoming solar radiation
>and, when the dissociated components get back together, many photons are
>emitted in the UV range. When those photons happen to be traveling upward,
>they can reach the UV cameras aboard Dynamics Explorer 1, where they appear
>as a glow in the resulting image. Thus it is only if there is a cloud of
>water vapor between the ionosphere and Dynamics Explorer 1 that dayglow
>photons will be absorbed, leaving a dark spot on the photo.] --MJ}***
>
>>>However, if you think a case can be made
>>>along those lines, let's hear it. --MJ}***
>>
>>
>>It isn't so much that I can make a such a case, it's more that I think
>>that with all the time that astronauts have logged in orbit, at least
>>some of them would have noticed so many comets arriving, as they catch
>>the sun, and before they hit the atmosphere.
>
>***{According to prevailing theory (the Whipple model), comets are giant
>dirty snowballs. They consist of frozen water, carbon dioxide, methane, and
>ammonia, with a small percentage of embedded dust, and are encrusted with a
>layer that is mostly soot (carbon). Result: they are black and hence not
>visible against the black background of space, until they come close enough
>to the sun for internal heating to result in degassing. Degassing breaches
>the black crust and ejects dust and debris which the solar wind causes to
>flow away from the comet's core and away from the sun. The result is a
>"tail" that catches the sun's rays and renders the comet spectacularly
>visible in the night sky, though unless it is unusually large it will *not*
>be visible in the day sky. Since comets the size of a house are not large,
>and since the dayglow only shows up on the day side of Earth, there is no
>reason to expect incoming small comets to be visible to astronauts or to
>anyone else. --MJ}***
>
>>IOW I have trouble believing that the source is extra-terrestrial. OTOH
>>I think they have been told to keep their mouth shut about alien
>>vessels.
>
>***{I agree that if there are alien vessels, it is to be expected that
>tyrannical governments--which are the only kind we have on Earth at
>present--will try to cover up that fact. The reason: these brutal regimes
>are presently worshipped by their pathetic, dumbed-down victims as if they
>are gods, and it is precisely this state of mindless adoration which
>permits wholesale theft, slaughter, and oppression to continue on a global
>scale. However, if the populace were to discover that there are higher
>powers--that there are, in fact, alien civilizations which are vastly more
>technologically advanced and powerful than our own--then Earth-based
>governments would lose their supreme status and would cease to be virtually
>exempt from criticism in the average person's mind. Bottom line: if
>advanced extraterrestrials are visiting Earth (a hypothesis that is not
>proven) you can bet your bottom dollar that Earth-based governments are
>doing their best to cover up that state of affairs.
>
>However, the question of whether alien vessels are the cause of the dayglow
>spots must be decided by looking at the evidence; and on that basis, I
>think the small comet theory wins hands down.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>[snip]
>>>***{By the way: it is obvious at this point that you can now abandon the
>>>antigravity field concept in favor of some sort of hypothetical field
that
>>>deflects UV and above while passing everything else. Result: you can
claim
>>>that every dayglow spot is an alien space vessel entering or leaving
>>>Earth's atmosphere, and by such means you can explain away the dayglow
>>>spots without recourse to the small comet theory. However, there is still
a
>>>problem--to wit: where do you think big comets come from?
>
>***{Another problem is that the seasonal pattern of distribution of the
>dayglow spots tracks the seasonal variation in meteor frequency. This
>supports the small comet theory, but does not support the alien vessel
>theory. (Aliens would be unlikely to schedule their comings and goings to
>peak when there is maximal danger that they would be hit by meteors!)
>--MJ}***
>
>(Do you think
>>>they appear full-blown out of nothing, or that they are the result of a
>>>gradual process of aggregation? Inquiring minds want to know!) --MJ}***
>>
>>Like Zecharia Sitchin, I believe that most of the comets were formed
>>when Tiamat (which had vast oceans like the Earth) was destroyed.
>
>***{That begs the question, and the question is this: if Tiamat had vast
>oceans like Earth, where did they come from? (The answer: small comets! :-)
>--MJ}***
>
>>However I think there are probably also a few left over from the
>>formation of the solar system.
>
>***{Prevailing theory places the origin of comets in the Oort cloud, which
>is a supposed vast spherical shell consisting of tens of billions of
>comets, orbiting the sun at an average distance of about a light year. When
>perturbed by a passing star, the Oort cloud bombards the inner solar system
>with comets and, in the process, explains a vast amount of geological and
>paleontological data having to do with mass extinctions. (The asteroid that
>killed the dinosaurs, for example, is now thought to have been a comet.)
>--MJ}***
>
>>BTW there is an article called "Neptune Attacks!" in NS of 7 April which
>>is all about what might be physical evidence of Sitchin's story, though
>>with a somewhat different slant.
>>Some comets thus undoubtedly formed through aggregation, though many did
>>not.
>>(..and yes, I do believe that small comets exist, I just have difficulty
>>believing that so many of them could be hitting the Earth with such
>>frequency, without anyone noticing, until black spots are picked up on
>>UV photos).
>
>***{It is not surprising that they are not being noticed, for the reasons
>given above. --MJ}***
>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>>New model hydrogen atom see
>>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
>
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"How can burning a flag or dipping a crucifix in a jar of urine be
>protected free speech, while buying an ad on television to express your
>opinion is not?" --Rush Limbaugh
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 20:09:59 2001
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Scott:

I would wait for Nick's response before you do any thing but we both used 
thin cu foil.  It may be miscarry to constrict the return flow or maximize 
delta T inorder to get the results.

My chips are all damaged save one I use as a visual aid (I tend to show off 
sometimes)  and one that I intend to use for my personal comfort during the 
summer. (Soda cooler)


At 09:24 PM 4/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Nick, I took a stab at your horizontal heat flow concept...
>
>http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/horiz.html
>
>I'm afraid that my results bear no resemblance to the really intriguing 
>and large results you posted here recently.
>
>I hope you can point out what I'm doing wrong.
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Inc.
>4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
>Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185
>512-346-3017 (FAX)
>http://www.earthtech.org


_________________________________________________________
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The problem is you might step on the toes of something with real potential without
realizing it.
I believe that it might be possible with the right geometry to make a fan aerofoil
overunity.

Indeed negative friction has apparently been found in a wind tunnel tests with certain
shapes and textures (golf ball like pits to create small vortexes I believe), then there
is the work of Viktor Schauberger.

As for the magnet motor idea well you might be right, but many claims have made and demoed
such, from Peter Pergrinus (Honestly can't be bothered to find the correct spelling of his
name) to much more recent claims by lots of people.

You would be correct if you state "It shouldn't work under conventional understanding" but
you can't be sure that under the right circumstances there might be something there.

The logic might be flawed in the two types you mention, as it will for most any OU device,
but that does not mean there isn't something not fully understood.

The only useful statement might be "Overunity will likely not make any sense from current
understanding, and any apparent way to beat the rules with logic is likely flawed"

Otherwise you can't say what conditions might conspire to make something work when it
obviously shouldn't..


John Schnurer wrote:

>         And no elephants the size of birds... which fits exactly with some
> of the New Energy logic I have seen over the years.
>
>         Request:
>
>         I am looking for examples of logic for the workings of New energy
> that either, are absurd, false, or are examples of pitfalls in thinking so
> as to make a sort of FAQ...of 'don't get trapped here" ..
>         Example:
>
>         1]      A motor is hooked to a fan.... the fan makes wind for wind
> mill, the windmill drive generator.
>
>         2]      (less obvious)  A wheel of wood is made with circle of
> magnets all around it ... all of the poles a North facing and at slight
> angle ... this will turn forever if a fixed North pole pf a magnet is
> presented to the wheel.
>
>                                                 Thanks....
>
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
> > Jed -
> >
> > >Right. That is why there are no birds the size of elephants. There
> > >is an extinct bird, Argentavis magnificens, with an 8 m wingspan,
> > >but the body weight was probably only that a small mammal.
> >
> > Some of us wackies think that might have been an animal humans used
> > to ride, and drove to extinction in wars thousands of years ago.
> >
> > >That is also why Langley was able to make large steam driven flying
> > >models in >the 1890s, but he could not scale up in 1903.
> > >
> > >The limitation at the opposite end of the scale, below 5 mm or so,
> > >is the viscosity of air.
> >
> > Makes me wonder why there aren't tiny airworms or screwflies or
> > something. And I'm damn glad there aren't! (At least I *hope* there
> > aren't - ridiculous Escamilla videos of bugs not withstanding?)
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 22:27:49 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: illLogic Request....New Energy...
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	Dear Folks,

	I would like your comment on the following general idea proposed
by an associate:

	A thermopile is placed in an oven and there is no thermal
gradient, the TP is evenly heated, say between 50 and 290 C.
	Electrical leads are brought out... but these are carefully kept
at equal temperature.   The leads are placed across a load.  
	If the TP caused no cooling in this condition then maybe it is
useless.
	
	Second idea.

	The TP is connected to a high current low voltage source and the
same conditions apply wit hte oven.  It should be noted the TP is a high
electrical resistance TP and a junction produces about 100 mv at about 150
C ...... this is NOT a low resistance bismuth and tellurium type TP.

	Again, if the TP does not produce cooling it is not useful.


	third condition, just for dicussion:

	The TP is configured as are many TP, one sode is warm, one side is
cool and there is a load across the pile.

	Any general comment on states 1 2 and 3?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 22:38:35 2001
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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:43:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: NASA PE Gravity Shield Effort 
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	I read this article,

	I am still astounded that no periodical can even get the simplest
matters correct.  The author claims a  " hot fast spinning YBCO disk " is
used.  Yeah.  40 degrees above absolute zero is really really hot.

					John


> 
> http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/anti_grav_000928.html
> 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 01:40:36 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Cc: <rhf rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: Schematics (Metrers, Force Fields), & Positive Thinking
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:11:20 -0700
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Dear Mr. John Schuler:

Thank you for responding to my email.

You asked me, Do you have any basis to understand Beardon's
claims?

I came up with very similar ideas as Mr. Beardon's on my own,
and his ideas made a lot of sense. He ideas just provide a little
more exact detail. Whether his ideas are accurate or not is not
necessarily important. His ideas are precise and may  help me
come with more clarified ideas, to better understand how such
directed energy technologies may work. I do know that the
Russian woodpecker mind control project does exits. I do not
know the exact technologies used.  I do know from my own
experience that directed energies have been used on me which
do indeed affect gravity-time-space. Of course, there is no way
that anyone could verify the existence of such technologies or
mind control projects, without some help from higher powers,
since the directed energies used by such projects can be used to
hide proof their existence and sabotage any experiments which
prove the validity of such mind control technologies or zero
point energy technologies. . The ideas presented in Mr.
Bearden's papers are very strait forward and professional, and it
would be very unlikely that he would make up such
information unless there is a least some truth to it.  I am
grateful for all the hard work he put into his web site. I believe that Mr.
Bearden has done our country a great service by posting  his web site. If we
only had a few more, dedicated amaricans such as himself.

I should also note that I have received an email from a German
physicist who verified that not only were my ideas close the
truth behind how 4D directed energies may work, but that
devices do exist which can block out 4D energies. Since he had
a secrecy agreement with Germany, he could not give me the
details  You can review all of the books that I have read, to come up with
my ideas, at my website at www.rhfweb.com under the link
9. Publications & Radiation Health Articles and then the link
 15. [Reference Materials ] as my basis for my understanding of such
matters. I am a Computer Scientist by  profession, and I only studied
physics as a hobby and as a necessary precaution to protect privacy rights
of individuals from technological harassment. I do not claim to be an
expert, in physics, but I can come up with detailed specifications for
technologies to protect privacy rights, and hire engineers to design and
verfiy such specifications.

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at
http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom
Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 13:13:43 2001
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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:06:36 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: "An Oversimplified Overview of Undersea Cable Systems"
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People who have been longing to know more about undersea telcom cables will 
enjoy this readable source of information:

http://davidw.home.cern.ch/davidw/public/SubCables.html

"An Oversimplified Overview of Undersea Cable Systems," David O. WILLIAMS, 
Information Technology Division, European Laboratory for Particle Physics 
(CERN)


And on a different subject, here is a nice quote from a DoE scientist named 
Jonathan Koomey <JGKoomey lbl.gov>:

"In the past year and a half, I have been witness to an extraordinary 
event: an analysis based on demonstrably incorrect data and flawed logic 
has achieved the status of conventional wisdom, in spite of my and my 
colleagues' best efforts to refute its assertions. The results continue to 
be cited by an unsuspecting press, and even by people who ought to know 
better."

Substitute "In the past twelve years . . ." and he could be a cold fusion 
researcher talking, as I told him. He is embroiled in a dispute with an 
innumerate idiot named Mark Mills. See:

http://enduse.lbl.gov/Projects/InfoTech.html

Mills claims, among other things, that it takes 1 pound of coal to transmit 
2 MB of data. I have been reading central office sales lit. and reviewing 
this document, and I figure he is wrong by factors ranging from 300 to 1.8 
million.

I am writing an article about this. It would be a non-issue, except that 
Pres. Bush has been quoting this fruitcake Mills, and the Secretary of 
Energy paraded these numbers on March 19, 2001 in a speech to the U.S. 
Chamber of Commerce.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 13:43:24 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: "An Oversimplified Overview of Undersea Cable Systems"
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I wrote:

>Mills claims, among other things, that it takes 1 pound of coal to 
>transmit 2 MB of data. I have been reading central office sales lit. and 
>reviewing this document, and I figure he is wrong by factors ranging from 
>300 to 1.8 million.

Oops. TAT-14 has four channels, with four spares, for a total of 640 Gbps, 
or 0.13 joules per MB. So Mills is wrong by a factor of 7.2 million, not 1.8.

The interesting thing, from the point of view of energy, is that it takes 
only 10 KW to power the whole kit and caboodle with a copper wire running 
the whole length of the cable. I thought it was a lot more than that. The 
repeaters I knew about were ancient models. This means there is no market 
for undersea cold fusion powered repeaters, since there is no difficulty 
sending power to them.

The repeaters weigh 500 kg and cost $1 million each. It takes about 100 of 
them to reach from North America to Europe with circa 1997 technology.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 14:02:10 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "keys" <keys-l@spiritweb.org>,
        "prj" <prj mail.msen.com>
Cc: <rhf rhfweb.com>
Subject: Zero-Point Energy=Random Local Antisymmetric Energy Not Nothing
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:28:56 -0700
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Zero-Point Energy=Random Local Antisymmetric Energy Not
Nothing

The principles supporting the fact that Zero-Vacuum Energies
come from Random Local Antisymmetric energies not
described in the older theories of relativity which are based on
global or general principles of symmetric equation.
Mathematical Chaos theory and modern nonlinear theory,
clearly explains how local energies which are chaotic or
random, may be collected and utilized. It should be fairly
simple to design an electric circuit and capacitor with collector
plates, based on the nonlinear mathematical equations The
general nonlinar spectral decomposition(i.e. both eigenvalues
and eigenfunctions) for the Bernolli and Baker Chaotic
functions, may be utilized to give some general patterns on
how to devices new electric circuits and communication paths,
which collect local energies in parallel and perhaps in random
or complex networks instead of linear symmetrical networks. 
Most of the random energies have to do with time reversals
(past and future energy relations). The random energies may be
limited to local time patterns, and may only be collectible at
certain times or under certain space-time conditions and
environments. And of course one would need the support of the
powers the be, to test the above theories in a fair manner, so
that the experiments and equipment are not affected by
harmful directed energies or other political and economic
forces to distort the results. It could also be true, the since
some citizens may not be responsible, ethical and mature
enough to handle such new technologies, that these new
technologies may have been repressed, for some good reasons
as well as some bad reasons.

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at
http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom
Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 14:02:26 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Thank you vortex for providing your email list. 
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:29:42 -0700
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Thank you vortex for providing your email list. 

I have gathered together a great deal of very helpful
information from your email list, which I would not have been
able to obtain otherwise over the past few years. Your email
list is very professional and open minded. Many other email
lists are not so open minded and friendly to new ideas as yours. 

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ and at
http://hometown.aol.com/rhfweb
and personal website at http://hometown.aol.com/conextom
Email: rhf rhfweb.com and Conextom@aol.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 15:07:05 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Lori Lou Schillig" <schillig alliancelink.com>,
        "Bruce Reiter" <breiter friendlynet.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010411212107.0324d258 earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:05:34 -0400
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Scott;

Sorry for the delay in replying.

In one sense, you might examine the weight change effect that you WERE
seeing - you say 5 to 10 milligrams, over several seconds of time.  OK,
sounds pretty similar to me, at least in speed.  Magnitude is down -
possibly a function of the somewhat smaller square area of the foil sheet?

Now, I would also then suggest making a symmetrical envelope!  The 1.5" wide
strip on one side may be changing things radically.  I would suggest making
a full symmetrical envelope, scaled up from the small version I sent you.

If this is, by lightyear's chance, a dipole effect, then to be reversible
and comparable in magnitude, you would need some symmetry to the system.

The 5 minute epoxy sounds OK, as long as it is the thinnest of sheens.  The
foil thickness sounds fine as well.  I would just make it a full envelope.
If you do that, and still don't get something halfways reversible, then I
will be at loose ends.

If you have questions as to whether the slower effect is due to convection,
then wrap it up good with some insulation, or bag it.

Thanks again, for your efforts and contributions!

NR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Little" <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:24 PM
Subject: Peltier madness


> Nick, I took a stab at your horizontal heat flow concept...
>
> http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/horiz.html
>
> I'm afraid that my results bear no resemblance to the really intriguing
and
> large results you posted here recently.
>
> I hope you can point out what I'm doing wrong.
>
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 18:50:47 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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Scott;

I looked again at the dimensions of your copper sheets - 4" is on the shy
side.  I suspect that you selected that size due to the fact that your
milligram balance is built about like mine.

The foil envelope I used was more like 6" by 4 or 5 inches"

Just another thought -

NR



> Nick, I took a stab at your horizontal heat flow concept...
>
> http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/quick/reiter/horiz.html
>
> I'm afraid that my results bear no resemblance to the really intriguing
and
> large results you posted here recently.
>
> I hope you can point out what I'm doing wrong.
>
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 23:11:09 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:08:43 +1000
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:48:54
-0500:
[snip]
>***{What is up there to evaporate, other than incoming small comets? [Note:
>the dayglow layer is in the ionosphere, which stretches from roughly 80 km
>to 300 km. In that region, gases are ionized by incoming solar radiation
>and, when the dissociated components get back together, many photons are
>emitted in the UV range. When those photons happen to be traveling upward,
>they can reach the UV cameras aboard Dynamics Explorer 1, where they appear
>as a glow in the resulting image. Thus it is only if there is a cloud of
>water vapor between the ionosphere and Dynamics Explorer 1 that dayglow
>photons will be absorbed, leaving a dark spot on the photo.] --MJ}***

I can think of one possible source of water vapour:
Clouds of hydrocarbons (e.g. methane) that reach the ozone layer would
be oxidised, producing CO2 and water. Though I'm not sure how this would
get up into the ionosphere (sprites and jets perhaps?).

Another possibility that comes to mind is some chemical that may act as
a catalyst rapidly recombining all the ions in a region into atoms which
would then no longer emit UV, until they are re-ionised, and/or until
the catalyst is destroyed.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 08:16:59 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:09:59 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 09:48 PM 4/12/2001 -0400, Nick Reiter wrote:

>Scott;
>
>I looked again at the dimensions of your copper sheets - 4" is on the shy
>side.  I suspect that you selected that size due to the fact that your
>milligram balance is built about like mine.

Yeah, 4" is the widest thing I can get on the pan due to the vertical pan 
supports.

>The foil envelope I used was more like 6" by 4 or 5 inches"

Yes, and it gave you a really large effect, several 10's of 
milligrams.  Surely my 4" piece should have shown something.

Question: does your present effect come on "promptly"...i.e. within a 
second or so?  That's the way the effect behaved when I had the leads 
improperly isolated and I haven't seen anything "prompt" like that since.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 10:03:26 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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Scott;


> Yes, and it gave you a really large effect, several 10's of
> milligrams.  Surely my 4" piece should have shown something.

**** And I believe it did.  There may be some qualitative attributes I
haven't elaborated on as much as I should have.
   Yes, when one tries this with the bare Peltier, the effect, as sporadic
as it may have been, did seem very quick.  A small foil envelope made the
effect much more consistent, and at the same time, did seem to slow it down
a bit.
   With other larger arrangements, the full extent of the weight change does
seem to need about 8 to 10 seconds to reach.  Deflection will usually start
within 2 to 3 seconds.  With the "jumbo" size Peltier you have, it seems
even longer, perhaps up to 5 seconds to kick in, then up to 10 to 12 seconds
to reach as much as it's going to do.
   Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

NR
>
> Question: does your present effect come on "promptly"...i.e. within a
> second or so?  That's the way the effect behaved when I had the leads
> improperly isolated and I haven't seen anything "prompt" like that since.
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 12:17:39 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:06:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:48:54
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>***{What is up there to evaporate, other than incoming small comets? [Note:
>>the dayglow layer is in the ionosphere, which stretches from roughly 80 km
>>to 300 km. In that region, gases are ionized by incoming solar radiation
>>and, when the dissociated components get back together, many photons are
>>emitted in the UV range. When those photons happen to be traveling upward,
>>they can reach the UV cameras aboard Dynamics Explorer 1, where they appear
>>as a glow in the resulting image. Thus it is only if there is a cloud of
>>water vapor between the ionosphere and Dynamics Explorer 1 that dayglow
>>photons will be absorbed, leaving a dark spot on the photo.] --MJ}***
>
>I can think of one possible source of water vapour:
>Clouds of hydrocarbons (e.g. methane) that reach the ozone layer would
>be oxidised, producing CO2 and water. Though I'm not sure how this would
>get up into the ionosphere (sprites and jets perhaps?).

***{To account for the dayglow spots, we need a mechanism that repeatedly
carries roughly 100 tons of water vapor into a localized region of the
upper ionosphere (roughly 25 km in radius), so that it can get between the
dayglow emissions and the Dynamics Explorer 1 satellite. If the mechanism
transports the water vapor upward from below, as you propose, it has to
somehow carry it through the stratosphere and most of the ionosphere *as a
coherent mass*. The stratosphere, which stretches roughly from 20 km to 80
km, is normally cloudless and moistureless, and to be above most of the
dayglow emissions, this coherent mass of water vapor would have to somehow
penetrate to an altitude of around 250 km. That is a journey of roughly 230
km. The question is, what mechanism could accomplish that?

Red sprites don't work, because they occur primarily in regions above
lightning strokes in active thunderstorms at heights of 65-75 km, with an
occasional whispy structure extending to about 90 km. And blue jets are an
even worse candidate, since they propagate upwards from thunderstorms to a
maximum altitude of about 50 km, and then disappear. (See
http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/sprites.html, for example.)

Further, the distribution of thunderstorms does not match the distribution
of the dayglow spots. Dayglow spots are subject to a seasonal variation
which matches the seasonal variation in the number of meteors, as one would
expect if they are caused by small comets, and they appear in that portion
of the sky that is on the trailing side of the earth as it moves through
space. In other words, the cause seems to catch up to the Earth from behind
as it moves through space. This suggests that the causes of the spots are
objects that are in highly elliptical, prograde, Earth-crossing orbits.

Bottom line: so far the only mechanism either of us can think of that could
transport the required amount of water to the right location as a coherent
mass is small comets.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Another possibility that comes to mind is some chemical that may act as
>a catalyst rapidly recombining all the ions in a region into atoms which
>would then no longer emit UV, until they are re-ionised, and/or until
>the catalyst is destroyed.

***{Once again, you need a mechanism which would deliver the catalyst to
the upper regions of the ionosphere as a coherent mass. As I noted the
other day, comets are giant snowballs consisting primarily of water, CO2,
methane, and ammonia ice. Thus the small comet theory provides the
mechanism that you need, and I think you should accept it as a working
hypothesis until something else comes along. --MJ}***

>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

***{P.S. I would like to note that I am not a proponent of the Oort cloud
theory that I mentioned the other day, just in case I left a misimpression.
I see a major problem with the notion that the source of comets lies in a
spherical shell of objects, because over billions of years the objects in
such a cloud would interact to form a disc in the plane of the ecliptic.
Thus it is my personal opinion that the source of most comets lies in the
Kuiper belt, which is a vast disk of dust and planetesimals that lies
outside the orbit of Pluto. --MJ}***

>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 13:49:07 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:44:33 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: AP: New energy standards to save billions of dollars
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The Bush administration decided to go ahead and implement Clinton 
administration rules that had been on hold.

- Jed


AP

New energy standards to save billions of dollars

April 13, 2001

QUOTES:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- New efficiency standards approved by the Bush 
administration are expected to save billions of dollars in energy costs but 
significantly increase prices of new washing machines and water heaters.

Improved washing machines will cut water use nationwide by 10.5 trillion 
gallons by 2030 and save $15.3 billion in electricity costs. That's enough 
to light all U.S. homes for more than four years, the Energy Department 
estimates.

Better water heaters are expected to result in nationwide savings by 2030 
equal to the total energy used by all U.S. households over almost three 
months.

Complying with the new requirements will raise the current $421 average 
price of a new washing machine to $670 by 2007. They will add $100 to the 
average $380 price of a new electric water heater, to $480, and $58 to the 
average $449 price of a new gas-fired water heater to bring the average to 
$507.

The more efficient washing machines will reduce the average homeowner's 
electric and water bills an average of $48 a year, effectively covering the 
difference in five years for an appliance that typically lasts 14 years.

Buyers of the new water heaters will get even better deals, with annual 
utility bill savings of $117 for gas-fired models and $182 a year for the 
electric versions. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 13:56:26 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:53:31 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 12:53 PM 4/13/2001 -0400, Nick Reiter wrote:

> > Yes, and it gave you a really large effect, several 10's of
> > milligrams.  Surely my 4" piece should have shown something.
>
>**** And I believe it did.  There may be some qualitative attributes I
>haven't elaborated on as much as I should have.
>    Yes, when one tries this with the bare Peltier, the effect, as sporadic
>as it may have been, did seem very quick.  A small foil envelope made the
>effect much more consistent, and at the same time, did seem to slow it down
>a bit.
>    With other larger arrangements, the full extent of the weight change does
>seem to need about 8 to 10 seconds to reach.  Deflection will usually start
>within 2 to 3 seconds.

OK, Nick, this is starting to sound a lot like the convection current thing 
I've been noticing with certain geometries.  Here's the critical question:

When you have the device polarized so that heat is pumped down thru the 
Peltier, do you see a weight gain for a few seconds followed by a weight loss?

If so, I believe that's just a downward convection current that causes the 
initial weight gain followed by an upward one that arises when the whole 
device gets hot.

Of course, now you're going to tell me that the effects are the same when 
the device is wrapped in insulation...:(

Hell, I don't know what's going on here!


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 15:42:00 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Apr 13, 2001
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:43:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park    Friday, 13 Apr 01   Washington, DC

1. NMD: MILITARY EXPERTS TAKE A HARD LOOK AT THE ALTERNATIVES. 
We conclude from a story in the Indianapolis Star last Sunday
that the Army and the Navy are capable of spotting any soft spots
in missile defense proposals. At a Heritage Foundation conference
in Colorado Springs, the Army expert began by listing all the
shortcomings of a proposed sea-based system using the Navy's
Aegis cruisers: Aegis radars don't work in space; the missiles
used by the Navy are too slow; the Navy will not dedicate enough
missiles to have a shield 365 days a year; they couldn't deploy
the system before 2010; and besides, it would cost too much.  The
analysis seemed to be right on -- but then it was the Navy guy's
turn. Hold on, the Navy expert said, no system is perfect.  The
army's land-based missile defense is not multilayered.  "A sea-
based plan would enable shots at the missiles while they're still
in the boost phase as well as mid course."  And Aegis cruisers
could be moved anywhere in the world where it might be "raining"
missiles--assuming, I suppose, they could get there in time.  The
final word came from Gregg Canavan of Los Alamos: "the biggest
threat to NMD is probably us."  WN concludes that both the Army
and the Navy are right, when talking about each other's plans.

2. EMF AND CANCER: WOULD HALF AS MANY PAPAL SPEECHES BE SAFER? 
As WN noted (WN 23 Mar 01), Vatican Radio, which broadcasts papal
speeches in 40 languages, is under fire from environmentalists,
who insist its high-powered transmissions contribute to a cancer
cluster around the tower.  To appease its critics, who are close
to having the station shut down under Italy's radiation laws, VR
has offered to cut the time devoted to broadcasting papal
speeches in half.  But it's not clear whether VR would do this by
cutting the number of speeches or the number of translations.  
     
 3. GLOBAL WARMING: TWO NEW STUDIES BOLSTER THE GREENHOUSE CASE. 
This still won't end the debate, but the new results, released on
Wednesday, report strong evidence that the oceans are warming,
and human activity is a major cause.  In both studies, published
this week in Science, groups from the National Oceanographic Data
Center and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography found a direct
connection between emissions of greenhouse gases and warming of
the oceans.  One of the study leaders commented that, "the signal
is so bold and big that you don't have do any fancy statistics to
beat it out of the data."  At least, the models used to predict
future warming succeeded in getting past ocean warming right,
over a 50 year period.  Not many studies have passed such a test. 
The new results come only weeks after the controversial decision
by President Bush to withdraw from the 1997 Kyoto accord.  

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's,
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 18:02:40 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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Scott;

> OK, Nick, this is starting to sound a lot like the convection current
thing
> I've been noticing with certain geometries.  Here's the critical question:
>
> When you have the device polarized so that heat is pumped down thru the
> Peltier, do you see a weight gain for a few seconds followed by a weight
loss?

******  I'll take a stab at it.  Here is what the typical action looks like,
using one of the smaller devices in the foil envelope; the baseline so to
speak, where one might see perhaps 3 mg of weight change.  We turn power on,
such that heat is pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight increase takes
place over about 8 seconds.  Usually by this time, the whole package seems
to get hot, and the weight tends to slowly drop back to initial levels,
though usually does not swing the opposite way.
   When the system cools back off to ambient, we reverse polarity at the
supply such that the "top" is now the hot face.  The same general sequence
now occurs, but in reverse.
   Thats for the small fry stuff.  Sadly to say, I have now unfortunately
fried both of the jumbo units you provided me.  I will order a few more
myself.  The darn things come de-bonded at the junction bridges, and the
whole ceramic face warps up and off.

   While obviously nobody but myself and the couple of other guys who are
usually lurking around the lab at lunch time can bear witness to it, I have
to say that indeed, we did observe the 30mg weight changes up and down with
the unit wrapped in baggie, then kaowool.
   I acknowledge that the only ultimate answer to the convection possibility
will come with a vacuum bell jar test.  Heat is indeed capable of radiating
through thin plastic, and even kaowool, although I would have thought that
would have attenuated it to a noticeable degree.

   Intuitively, I am gathering a couple of things from what I have seen:
   First, there is an aspect to this that almost suggests that the Peltier /
envelope / planar conductor system needs to be tuned in some bizarre thermal
way.  Some Peltiers working better with certain envelopes or materials.
   Secondly, a super critical factor, I believe, is a solid mechanical bond
between the Peltier faces and the planar surfaces / envelopes.  Heat sink
grease conducts heat, but allows the metal surfaces to warp up off of the
Peltier faces.  Then it's like the effect goes away at that point.  Even the
epoxies soften and loosen after a few trials.  I need to consult with Melcor
to see if they have some sort of a soldering or brazing procedure.  Or maybe
they can make me a Peltier with couples bonded right to a metal plane, ala
what I recall was a Hamdi suggestion.

>
> Hell, I don't know what's going on here!
>
*******  Breath deep and fret not.  It will work itself out.  I concur that
of all the initially promising type phenomena that I have chased, that
eventually got cast out for artifact, this one has clung on the longest. I
hope it's not destined to end up like the Biefeld Brown effect, being argued
over yet, 70 years later!!!


NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 18:16:00 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:14:25 +1000
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:06:45
-0500:
[snip]
>>I can think of one possible source of water vapour:
>>Clouds of hydrocarbons (e.g. methane) that reach the ozone layer would
>>be oxidised, producing CO2 and water. Though I'm not sure how this would
>>get up into the ionosphere (sprites and jets perhaps?).
>
>***{To account for the dayglow spots, we need a mechanism that repeatedly
>carries roughly 100 tons of water vapor into a localized region of the
>upper ionosphere (roughly 25 km in radius), so that it can get between the
>dayglow emissions and the Dynamics Explorer 1 satellite. If the mechanism
>transports the water vapor upward from below, as you propose, it has to
>somehow carry it through the stratosphere and most of the ionosphere *as a
>coherent mass*. 

Not necessarily. The components of the mass could be carried in a widely
distributed fashion, and only condense into a coherent mass when the
circumstances are right. They would in a sense be high altitude clouds.


>The stratosphere, which stretches roughly from 20 km to 80
>km, is normally cloudless and moistureless, and to be above most of the
>dayglow emissions, this coherent mass of water vapor would have to somehow
>penetrate to an altitude of around 250 km. That is a journey of roughly 230
>km. The question is, what mechanism could accomplish that?


>
>Red sprites don't work, because they occur primarily in regions above
>lightning strokes in active thunderstorms at heights of 65-75 km, with an
>occasional whispy structure extending to about 90 km. And blue jets are an
>even worse candidate, since they propagate upwards from thunderstorms to a
>maximum altitude of about 50 km, and then disappear. (See
>http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/sprites.html, for example.)

I suspect that one or the other of these is actually a charged particle
wind. That they "disappear" at a given altitude may just be because the
air gets so thin that collisions become uncommon, and the resultant
light becomes too dim to see. However as charged particle streams, I
suspect that their ultimate destination is the charged ionosphere.

>Bottom line: so far the only mechanism either of us can think of that could
>transport the required amount of water to the right location as a coherent
>mass is small comets.
[snip]

I thought of another this morning:

>From http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/tmp/1981-070A-3.html :-
"The vacuum ultraviolet imaging photometer was a spin-scan Newtonian
telescope. The first optical element was an aluminum scanning mirror
with a MgF2 overcoat".

From
http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/ch/ch795x_info/lecture/lecture8/brewster/brewster.html
"Brewster’s angle and total reflection
There are two useful properties of reflection that we discuss here.
Reflection at Brewster’s angle can be used to polarise an
electromagnetic wave."

Now suppose that some natural mechanism in the atmosphere is responsible
for occasionally ensuring that UV light is polarised.
When that polarised light is reflected from the mirror in the camera, at
Brewster's angle, a second polarisation plane is established.
Occasionally, the plane established by the mirror will be at right
angles to plane of the incident UV, and no UV will actually be reflected
into the camera. In short the camera will record a dark spot.
The direction in which the spots appear could be related to the angle
formed between sun, earth, and satellite, and consequently always on the
trailing side? Furthermore the apparent motion of the spots could be a
consequence of the change in angle, due to the motion of the satellite.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:55:12 -0500
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Do you buy this Robin?

 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/13/big.bang.collision/index.html?s=8

Regards,  Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:41:09 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:38:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:06:45
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>>I can think of one possible source of water vapour:
>>>Clouds of hydrocarbons (e.g. methane) that reach the ozone layer would
>>>be oxidised, producing CO2 and water. Though I'm not sure how this would
>>>get up into the ionosphere (sprites and jets perhaps?).
>>
>>***{To account for the dayglow spots, we need a mechanism that repeatedly
>>carries roughly 100 tons of water vapor into a localized region of the
>>upper ionosphere (roughly 25 km in radius), so that it can get between the
>>dayglow emissions and the Dynamics Explorer 1 satellite. If the mechanism
>>transports the water vapor upward from below, as you propose, it has to
>>somehow carry it through the stratosphere and most of the ionosphere *as a
>>coherent mass*.
>
>Not necessarily. The components of the mass could be carried in a widely
>distributed fashion, and only condense into a coherent mass when the
>circumstances are right. They would in a sense be high altitude clouds.
>
>
>>The stratosphere, which stretches roughly from 20 km to 80
>>km, is normally cloudless and moistureless, and to be above most of the
>>dayglow emissions, this coherent mass of water vapor would have to somehow
>>penetrate to an altitude of around 250 km. That is a journey of roughly 230
>>km. The question is, what mechanism could accomplish that?
>
>
>>
>>Red sprites don't work, because they occur primarily in regions above
>>lightning strokes in active thunderstorms at heights of 65-75 km, with an
>>occasional whispy structure extending to about 90 km. And blue jets are an
>>even worse candidate, since they propagate upwards from thunderstorms to a
>>maximum altitude of about 50 km, and then disappear. (See
>>http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/sprites.html, for example.)
>
>I suspect that one or the other of these is actually a charged particle
>wind. That they "disappear" at a given altitude may just be because the
>air gets so thin that collisions become uncommon, and the resultant
>light becomes too dim to see. However as charged particle streams, I
>suspect that their ultimate destination is the charged ionosphere.

***{You are speculating about facts not in evidence. If we go by the
evidence, the sprites dissipate at around 90 km. To suppose that they make
it another 160 km in an invisible form and, additionally, have the capacity
to interfere with UV, is of course your prerogative, but I'll put my money
on the only theory that does not require us to go outside the realm of
evidence--to wit: the small comet theory.

I would also repeat what I said earlier: sprites are associated with
thunderstorm activity, and thunderstorm activity does not tend to correlate
with meteors, either seasonally, or in terms of their being associated with
the trailing side of the Earth.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>Bottom line: so far the only mechanism either of us can think of that could
>>transport the required amount of water to the right location as a coherent
>>mass is small comets.
>[snip]
>
>I thought of another this morning:
>
>>From http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/tmp/1981-070A-3.html :-
>"The vacuum ultraviolet imaging photometer was a spin-scan Newtonian
>telescope. The first optical element was an aluminum scanning mirror
>with a MgF2 overcoat".
>
>From
>http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/ch/ch795x_info/lecture/lecture8/brewster/brews
>ter.html
>"Brewster’s angle and total reflection
>There are two useful properties of reflection that we discuss here.
>Reflection at Brewster’s angle can be used to polarise an
>electromagnetic wave."
>
>Now suppose that some natural mechanism in the atmosphere is responsible
>for occasionally ensuring that UV light is polarised.

***{You are going outside of the evidence again. :-) --MJ}***

>When that polarised light is reflected from the mirror in the camera, at
>Brewster's angle, a second polarisation plane is established.
>Occasionally, the plane established by the mirror will be at right
>angles to plane of the incident UV, and no UV will actually be reflected
>into the camera. In short the camera will record a dark spot.
>The direction in which the spots appear could be related to the angle
>formed between sun, earth, and satellite, and consequently always on the
>trailing side?

***{And again. --MJ}***

Furthermore the apparent motion of the spots could be a
>consequence of the change in angle, due to the motion of the satellite.

***{The difference between postulating small comets to account for the
spots in the dayglow image and postulating either invisible 160 km sprite
extensions that just happen to block UV, or seemingly magical polarized
spots in the ionosphere, is that (a) we know large comets exist, and (b) we
know they didn't leap into existence full blown. Result: it would be
reasonable to expect small comets to exist even in the absence of
photographic imagery that seems to confirm their existence. The invisible
sprite extensions and the magical polarized spots, however, have no
independent facts suggesting their existence. Instead, their entire raison
d'etre apparently lies in their serviceability in fending off the small
comet theory. (If not, then what are the independent facts supporting their
existence? :-)

And by the way, why would polarized spots of unknown etiology correlate
with meteor showers?

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

***{I would add that it is often useful, when confronted with data that do
not seem to permit a mundane explanation, to free up one's mind and indulge
in wild-speculation and guesswork, in order to try to make sense out of
what is apparently senseless. However, when confronting data that do in
fact lend themselves readily to a pedestrian explanation, why would one do
that? Could it be that there is some implausible aspect of the small comet
theory that I am missing? If so, what is it? --MJ}***

>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 23:02:13 2001
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Subject: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
others, I am now going to plunge into a topic that some may find
unsettling, but which is very relevant to this group--to wit: what does
reason have to say about the meaning of life?

To begin, I ask that you all think back to the years before you came into
the world. During those times you had no physical existence, despite the
fact that the world, and likely the rest of the universe as well, was
teeming with life. Every day, untold multitudes of new creatures were
coming into existence and beginning their lives. Birds and insects and
spiders and fish and crabs were hatching, and mammalian mothers--monkeys
and wolves and foxes and mice and tigers and humans and cattle and on and
on--were giving birth, on this world and on untold billions of others, in
this galaxy and elsewhere, in a universe where you did not exist. That
means you did not see through any of those eyes, or hear through any of
those ears, or feel with any of that skin, or taste with those mouths, or
experience the images in those streams of consciousness.

The question is: why not?

The answer, I submit, is obvious: none of those teeming billions of babies
had the characteristics that were required in order to be you. Each of them
was a material entity whose development was set in motion and controlled by
genetic material, and in each of those cases, the entity that was produced
did not have the traits which were required to enable you to see through
its eyes, hear through its ears, etc.

But then, on a backwater planet called Earth, in an obscure corner of a
universe teeming with life, there occurred a union of sperm and egg which
brought your state of nonexistence to an end. That union triggered a
sequence of development which produced the traits that were required for a
baby to be you, and so you appeared. This creature was different from all
the others: you saw through its eyes, heard through its ears, felt with its
skin, and you experienced directly the images in its mind.

The question is: what was the nature of the characteristics which qualified
that creature to be you?

Well, they didn't have to do with your body: it is clear from experience
that we can lose chunks of our bodies in the course of our lives and still
be who we are. Thus the characteristics that define the essence of what we
are must have to do with our minds. However, it is also clear that those
traits do not have to do with our conscious knowledge, since our conscious
knowledge changes in large and discontinuous chunks throughout our lives,
as we add some pieces of information and forget others, while still
remaining who we are. Therefore, the traits that define what we are,
rendering us unique individuals, must dwell in the non-conscious parts of
our minds.

But what can they be?

In my view, it is our understandings concerning the nature of the world
that render each of us unique. We come into the world with a vast store of
genetically encoded understanding that, despite its source in genetics,
manifests itself to some specific and unique degree in each specific
individual. For example, baby mice come into the world without the
understanding that the noises made by adults of their species are the
symbols of a complex language. Baby humans, on the other hand, treat those
sounds as a mystery to be solved, and because of that innate understanding,
they proceed to figure out what the sounds mean, and thus teach themselves
to speak. Note, however, that there is uniqueness in the manifestation of
such understanding: some children become much more intensely preoccupied
with puzzling out the mystery of speech than others, and, as a consequence,
they master the skill more rapidly than their peers. Thus the average child
begins to use sentences at about the age of two, whereas the extremely
verbal child will do so before the end of his first year, and the child
whose focus is elsewhere may not speak in sentences until he is four or
five. And there are many other examples that imply the existence of
genetically encoded understanding: some children are, from the beginning,
inclined to be passive receptacles into which authority figures can place
whatever beliefs they wish, while others are inclined to analyze input from
others, apply criticism, and only accept that which passes their tests.
Still other children are inclined, virtually from birth, to try to get
their way by means of violence, or to lie or to steal, or to express their
disapproval by sulking, etc. Such behavior patterns, again, arise so early
in life that it is virtually inconceivable that they could be due to
environment. It is far more likely, in my view, that they arise due to the
differing nuances of the genetically encoded understanding that we bring
with us into the world, and which defines who we are.

As we live our lives, of course, we interact with our environment, receive
new information, process it, and alter the patterns that are laid down in
the non-conscious parts of our minds: our understanding changes, and the
patterns by which we respond to stimuli change as well. What that means is
that the process of living life causes us to become different people than
we were: we learn and grow (or we shrink), but the changes take place
gradually and in accordance with the principle of physical continuity
(which we have extensively discussed here in the past), and, because of the
imperceptible incrementalism of the changes, we continue to see through our
eyes, feel with our skin, hear with our ears, etc., despite the gradual
alteration of the understandings that defined who we were when first we
came into the world. Result: when, at the end of our lives, we die, we pass
into nonexistence with different understandings than those we had when we
entered the world.

And after we die, we once again have no physical existence in the universe.
Once again, in an immense universe teeming with life, in which untold
billions of infants, of multitudinous species, spread throughout vast
numbers of distant galaxies, are beginning new lives, we see through no
eyes, hear through no ears, feel with no skin, etc. Once again, none of the
squeaking, howling, clicking, screaming, buzzing, cheeping, croaking,
squawking multitudes of new life is us: they do not exhibit, as they enter
the world, the characteristics that are required.

But it is a mind-bogglingly big universe, and within its vast expanses of
space and time anything that can happen eventually will happen. That means
a day will come after your death when another infant is born who carries
with him the unique characteristics that make him you. And when that day
comes, you will live again. Note, however, that the characteristics
necessary to be you have been modified: you did not possess the same
understanding of the world when you died as when you were born. Result: in
order to qualify as you this time around, a child will have to possess,
when he begins his life, the understanding, but not the conscious
knowledge, that you possessed when you died. That means if you moved upward
in your life, if you grew in terms of your understanding of the world, then
the genetic material of a species more advanced than humans will be
necessary, in order to produce an infant that can qualify as you. And if
you slid downhill, if you had a weaker comprehension of the nature of the
world when you died than when you were born, then the genetic material of a
species less advanced than humans may be necessary to capture the essence
of what you are.

The implication: if at the end of your life you possess a much deeper
understanding of the world, of freedom, and of the value of intellectual
independence than you had when you began, then your next life is likely to
take place as a member of a species more mentally advanced than humans, in
a prosperous society where freedom and intellectual independence are valued
and protected. And if, at the end of your life, you hated freedom and
intellectual independence, and understood less of the world than when you
began, then your next life is likely to take place as a member of a species
less mentally advanced than humans, in a world that is even more brutal,
oppressive, and impoverished than Earth.

As for the subjective time between death and the beginning of the next
life, it is zero. Even if a hundred billion years passes before a new life
has the characteristics necessary to be you, you will not notice, because
you will have no physical existence during that interval. To you, it will
seem as if no time elapsed at all. Death is, from this point of view,
merely an episode of total amnesia: you lose your conscious knowledge while
retaining the full measure of your understanding, and your stream of
consciousness is unbroken. This is the principle of continuity of mind.

Bottom line: each mind is immortal. Each life ends in death, but each
death, with the passage of sufficient time, begets a new life. The sequence
is unending, but the direction--upward or downward--is under your control.

The moral of the story: be very, very careful what you become.

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 04:01:29 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Peltier madness

It looks like it all boils down to a Net Force due to Heat Flow, Nick.  With the force
being proportional to Q/mv during the time of the Heat Pulse.

Regards,   Frederick


>
> Scott;
>
> > OK, Nick, this is starting to sound a lot like the convection current
> thing
> > I've been noticing with certain geometries.  Here's the critical question:
> >
> > When you have the device polarized so that heat is pumped down thru the
> > Peltier, do you see a weight gain for a few seconds followed by a weight
> loss?
>
> ******  I'll take a stab at it.  Here is what the typical action looks like,
> using one of the smaller devices in the foil envelope; the baseline so to
> speak, where one might see perhaps 3 mg of weight change.  We turn power on,
> such that heat is pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight increase takes
> place over about 8 seconds.  Usually by this time, the whole package seems
> to get hot, and the weight tends to slowly drop back to initial levels,
> though usually does not swing the opposite way.
>    When the system cools back off to ambient, we reverse polarity at the
> supply such that the "top" is now the hot face.  The same general sequence
> now occurs, but in reverse.
>    Thats for the small fry stuff.  Sadly to say, I have now unfortunately
> fried both of the jumbo units you provided me.  I will order a few more
> myself.  The darn things come de-bonded at the junction bridges, and the
> whole ceramic face warps up and off.
>
>    While obviously nobody but myself and the couple of other guys who are
> usually lurking around the lab at lunch time can bear witness to it, I have
> to say that indeed, we did observe the 30mg weight changes up and down with
> the unit wrapped in baggie, then kaowool.
>    I acknowledge that the only ultimate answer to the convection possibility
> will come with a vacuum bell jar test.  Heat is indeed capable of radiating
> through thin plastic, and even kaowool, although I would have thought that
> would have attenuated it to a noticeable degree.
>
>    Intuitively, I am gathering a couple of things from what I have seen:
>    First, there is an aspect to this that almost suggests that the Peltier /
> envelope / planar conductor system needs to be tuned in some bizarre thermal
> way.  Some Peltiers working better with certain envelopes or materials.
>    Secondly, a super critical factor, I believe, is a solid mechanical bond
> between the Peltier faces and the planar surfaces / envelopes.  Heat sink
> grease conducts heat, but allows the metal surfaces to warp up off of the
> Peltier faces.  Then it's like the effect goes away at that point.  Even the
> epoxies soften and loosen after a few trials.  I need to consult with Melcor
> to see if they have some sort of a soldering or brazing procedure.  Or maybe
> they can make me a Peltier with couples bonded right to a metal plane, ala
> what I recall was a Hamdi suggestion.
>
> >
> > Hell, I don't know what's going on here!
> >
> *******  Breath deep and fret not.  It will work itself out.  I concur that
> of all the initially promising type phenomena that I have chased, that
> eventually got cast out for artifact, this one has clung on the longest. I
> hope it's not destined to end up like the Biefeld Brown effect, being argued
> over yet, 70 years later!!!
>
>
> NR
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 04:05:59 2001
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Nick,

 I am late to read the thread for a week or more due a tragic event had occurred. Now I am reading them and trying find a solution.

Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> Scott;
> 

[snip]

>  Or maybe
> they can make me a Peltier with couples bonded right to a metal plane, ala
> what I recall was a Hamdi suggestion.
> 


Best Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 05:53:01 2001
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Since the Peltier Effect relies on "phonon drag" by charge flow there could be a
supersonic shock wave similar to
the Cherenkov effect set up in a material.

IOW, the phonon velocity can exceed the sound velocity in the material.

If the Net Force or Thrust of the material is proportional
to Q/v  where Q is the heat energy, and v is the velocity of sound in the material,
then  the reflection of a phonon at the boundary should result in a force > 2 mv,
where mv is the momentum of the phonon.

Modeling this, will take some thought.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 05:55:15 2001
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 08:59 PM 4/13/2001 -0400, Nick Reiter wrote:

>******  I'll take a stab at it.  Here is what the typical action looks like,
>using one of the smaller devices in the foil envelope; the baseline so to
>speak, where one might see perhaps 3 mg of weight change.  We turn power on,
>such that heat is pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight increase takes
>place over about 8 seconds.

This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be due 
to heat FLOW.  The heat flow rate created by these Peltier devices is 
inversely related to the delta-T across the device.  That means the heat 
flow rate is maximum when the device is first energized and tapers off 
rapidly as the delta-T increases.  Judging from my experience, I'd guess 
that after 8 seconds, a bare device...or even a device with a fairly thin 
Cu envelope around it...has reached maximum delta-T and is no longer 
pumping any heat.

Instead, I think the timing of the effect you are observing suggests that 
it is a temperature effect.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 05:56:13 2001
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Hi,

I have a quick idea for thermal problems, I dont know it would work. It address the expansion of trapped air and convection problem, and may also provide heat regulation.

My suggestion is putting the naked peltier cell in a small bath, and put the bath on the balance plate. 

Naked cell would be totally immersed into the bath,  Little air trapped inside the cell would not be problem as whole the bath assembly will be weighed.
 
Liquid would not conduct electricity, highly non vaporizable, would have good heat conductance, low viscosity, low thermal expansion coefficient, chemically inert , etc. Good thermal capacitance would keep the temperature rise low. May brake fluid be used

. For a clean experiment, a small heat resistant transparent sealed bag can be used as the bath. It is recommended no air remains in the bag. To avoid contact cell plates with the container and allow the liquid circulated freely around the cell, some sepa

rators (manufactured from paper attaches) can be used. For further extending the operating time, a hich-tech ice cube could be also embedded in. Cell need be immersed about 1/2 inch for preventing immediate cooling of upper surface of the bag. Unfortunate

ly bath system may not provide good thermal regulation then upper surface is heated and the lower is cooled. 

Before the conduct the experiment, cell should be energized on both polarities inside the liquid bag, and shake to allow the extra air be removed.

Transparency of the bag or the bath is required to monitor bubbles production and break the power before the liquid spill all over.

Some times ago, I suggested to drive the cell with alternate current. Who knows one can obtain some interesting results. I had also suggested to modify the cell to improve the weight effect but neutralize the thermal work. It was posted under the subject 

"Rearranging peltier cells".

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 06:06:16 2001
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Little" <little earthtech.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: Peltier madness

Scott wrote:

> This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be due 
> to heat FLOW. 

Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust. 

> The heat flow rate created by these Peltier devices is 
> inversely related to the delta-T across the device.  That means the heat 
> flow rate is maximum when the device is first energized and tapers off 
> rapidly as the delta-T increases. 

Certainly. You are no longer creating any forced heat flow.
> 
> Instead, I think the timing of the effect you are observing suggests that 
> it is a temperature effect.

It sure is!   :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 07:51:43 2001
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Hello,
    An 'earthquake' is really a localized release of potential energy 
previousely stored as stress between geological formations at
some distance underground.  A typical case is where two large
formations are moving slowly with respect to each other subject
to much larger plate tectonic forces.  Like two pieces of large
grit sandpaper held tightly together and slid against each other,
the movement is not smooth.  Many points of lockup occur.
The movement, when it occurs, is jerky as these obstructions
are overcome accompanied by sudden accelerations.  The same
is the case underground manifesting themselves to us as 'quakes'.
The point of release is localized with a finite energy however large.
The damage will follow a pattern consistant with the second order
differential equation in multivariable Fermi-Dirac space of damped
vibration.  It will generally devolve into a cubically declining function
partially involving the radius from the source of the release.
    The point of the release is called the epicenter.


Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net


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Mitchell, this is a very interesting and insightful essay on a subject we all
have to address at some time in our lives.  While I do not have such a
polished description of our life history, I suggest a number of observations
must be included in any description.  Indeed, these observations would suggest
a number of possibilities you have missed.  I will list a few of these
phenomenon for discussion.  Of course, it is always possible to reject any or
all of them in the same manner as much about normal life is rejected to suit
our limited worldview.

1. Reincarnation :  This phenomenon has been studied at great length both by
scientific means as well as by universal experience over many millennia. This
evidence shows that some, if not all, people existed in other bodies in the
past.  If accepted, the process would suggest that after death we each occupy
another form that has the power to re-enter the physical form.

2. The psi phenomenon:  This collection of effects and mechanisms has been
experienced by individuals to a greater or lesser degree throughout history.
Recently, investigations based on scientific methods have revealed a universal
characteristic to the effects.  If accepted, they suggest the existence of a
reality much different from the one we normally experience.

3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:  Sai Baba is an Avatar now living in India who has
powers that defy explanation.  These are the same powers that have been
attributed to Christ and believed to be real by many people. If believed,
these powers show the existence of a reality parallel to but invisible to the
one we normally experience.  Apparently, matter can be easily transported
between these two realities by the entities in the other reality.  This is
only one of the many strange interactions that appear to be possible.

These three effects suggest the existence of a complex reality that is largely
invisible.  Of course, religions preach this fact and many people accept this
idea.  However, those of us who are of a scientific bent want evidence. I
suggest the three observations listed above are such evidence - evidence that
does not have to be accepted on faith.  Naturally, the possibility of such
evidence needs to be accepted in order for a person to be willing to take a
look.  The more effort taken to understand these phenomenon, the more real
they become.   Not to labor the point, but this is “cold fusion effect” all
over again.  The only issue is whether a person has the courage and curiosity
to explore that which is threatening to his present views.

Ed Storms

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
> deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
> Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
> others, I am now going to plunge into a topic that some may find
> unsettling, but which is very relevant to this group--to wit: what does
> reason have to say about the meaning of life?
>
> To begin, I ask that you all think back to the years before you came into
> the world. During those times you had no physical existence, despite the
> fact that the world, and likely the rest of the universe as well, was
> teeming with life. Every day, untold multitudes of new creatures were
> coming into existence and beginning their lives. Birds and insects and
> spiders and fish and crabs were hatching, and mammalian mothers--monkeys
> and wolves and foxes and mice and tigers and humans and cattle and on and
> on--were giving birth, on this world and on untold billions of others, in
> this galaxy and elsewhere, in a universe where you did not exist. That
> means you did not see through any of those eyes, or hear through any of
> those ears, or feel with any of that skin, or taste with those mouths, or
> experience the images in those streams of consciousness.
>
> The question is: why not?
>
> The answer, I submit, is obvious: none of those teeming billions of babies
> had the characteristics that were required in order to be you. Each of them
> was a material entity whose development was set in motion and controlled by
> genetic material, and in each of those cases, the entity that was produced
> did not have the traits which were required to enable you to see through
> its eyes, hear through its ears, etc.
>
> But then, on a backwater planet called Earth, in an obscure corner of a
> universe teeming with life, there occurred a union of sperm and egg which
> brought your state of nonexistence to an end. That union triggered a
> sequence of development which produced the traits that were required for a
> baby to be you, and so you appeared. This creature was different from all
> the others: you saw through its eyes, heard through its ears, felt with its
> skin, and you experienced directly the images in its mind.
>
> The question is: what was the nature of the characteristics which qualified
> that creature to be you?
>
> Well, they didn't have to do with your body: it is clear from experience
> that we can lose chunks of our bodies in the course of our lives and still
> be who we are. Thus the characteristics that define the essence of what we
> are must have to do with our minds. However, it is also clear that those
> traits do not have to do with our conscious knowledge, since our conscious
> knowledge changes in large and discontinuous chunks throughout our lives,
> as we add some pieces of information and forget others, while still
> remaining who we are. Therefore, the traits that define what we are,
> rendering us unique individuals, must dwell in the non-conscious parts of
> our minds.
>
> But what can they be?
>
> In my view, it is our understandings concerning the nature of the world
> that render each of us unique. We come into the world with a vast store of
> genetically encoded understanding that, despite its source in genetics,
> manifests itself to some specific and unique degree in each specific
> individual. For example, baby mice come into the world without the
> understanding that the noises made by adults of their species are the
> symbols of a complex language. Baby humans, on the other hand, treat those
> sounds as a mystery to be solved, and because of that innate understanding,
> they proceed to figure out what the sounds mean, and thus teach themselves
> to speak. Note, however, that there is uniqueness in the manifestation of
> such understanding: some children become much more intensely preoccupied
> with puzzling out the mystery of speech than others, and, as a consequence,
> they master the skill more rapidly than their peers. Thus the average child
> begins to use sentences at about the age of two, whereas the extremely
> verbal child will do so before the end of his first year, and the child
> whose focus is elsewhere may not speak in sentences until he is four or
> five. And there are many other examples that imply the existence of
> genetically encoded understanding: some children are, from the beginning,
> inclined to be passive receptacles into which authority figures can place
> whatever beliefs they wish, while others are inclined to analyze input from
> others, apply criticism, and only accept that which passes their tests.
> Still other children are inclined, virtually from birth, to try to get
> their way by means of violence, or to lie or to steal, or to express their
> disapproval by sulking, etc. Such behavior patterns, again, arise so early
> in life that it is virtually inconceivable that they could be due to
> environment. It is far more likely, in my view, that they arise due to the
> differing nuances of the genetically encoded understanding that we bring
> with us into the world, and which defines who we are.
>
> As we live our lives, of course, we interact with our environment, receive
> new information, process it, and alter the patterns that are laid down in
> the non-conscious parts of our minds: our understanding changes, and the
> patterns by which we respond to stimuli change as well. What that means is
> that the process of living life causes us to become different people than
> we were: we learn and grow (or we shrink), but the changes take place
> gradually and in accordance with the principle of physical continuity
> (which we have extensively discussed here in the past), and, because of the
> imperceptible incrementalism of the changes, we continue to see through our
> eyes, feel with our skin, hear with our ears, etc., despite the gradual
> alteration of the understandings that defined who we were when first we
> came into the world. Result: when, at the end of our lives, we die, we pass
> into nonexistence with different understandings than those we had when we
> entered the world.
>
> And after we die, we once again have no physical existence in the universe.
> Once again, in an immense universe teeming with life, in which untold
> billions of infants, of multitudinous species, spread throughout vast
> numbers of distant galaxies, are beginning new lives, we see through no
> eyes, hear through no ears, feel with no skin, etc. Once again, none of the
> squeaking, howling, clicking, screaming, buzzing, cheeping, croaking,
> squawking multitudes of new life is us: they do not exhibit, as they enter
> the world, the characteristics that are required.
>
> But it is a mind-bogglingly big universe, and within its vast expanses of
> space and time anything that can happen eventually will happen. That means
> a day will come after your death when another infant is born who carries
> with him the unique characteristics that make him you. And when that day
> comes, you will live again. Note, however, that the characteristics
> necessary to be you have been modified: you did not possess the same
> understanding of the world when you died as when you were born. Result: in
> order to qualify as you this time around, a child will have to possess,
> when he begins his life, the understanding, but not the conscious
> knowledge, that you possessed when you died. That means if you moved upward
> in your life, if you grew in terms of your understanding of the world, then
> the genetic material of a species more advanced than humans will be
> necessary, in order to produce an infant that can qualify as you. And if
> you slid downhill, if you had a weaker comprehension of the nature of the
> world when you died than when you were born, then the genetic material of a
> species less advanced than humans may be necessary to capture the essence
> of what you are.
>
> The implication: if at the end of your life you possess a much deeper
> understanding of the world, of freedom, and of the value of intellectual
> independence than you had when you began, then your next life is likely to
> take place as a member of a species more mentally advanced than humans, in
> a prosperous society where freedom and intellectual independence are valued
> and protected. And if, at the end of your life, you hated freedom and
> intellectual independence, and understood less of the world than when you
> began, then your next life is likely to take place as a member of a species
> less mentally advanced than humans, in a world that is even more brutal,
> oppressive, and impoverished than Earth.
>
> As for the subjective time between death and the beginning of the next
> life, it is zero. Even if a hundred billion years passes before a new life
> has the characteristics necessary to be you, you will not notice, because
> you will have no physical existence during that interval. To you, it will
> seem as if no time elapsed at all. Death is, from this point of view,
> merely an episode of total amnesia: you lose your conscious knowledge while
> retaining the full measure of your understanding, and your stream of
> consciousness is unbroken. This is the principle of continuity of mind.
>
> Bottom line: each mind is immortal. Each life ends in death, but each
> death, with the passage of sufficient time, begets a new life. The sequence
> is unending, but the direction--upward or downward--is under your control.
>
> The moral of the story: be very, very careful what you become.
>
> --Mitchell Jones
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
> the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
> candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
> result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
> followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Mitchell, this is a very interesting and insightful essay on a subject
we all have to address at some time in our lives.&nbsp; While I do not
have such a polished description of our life history, I suggest a number
of observations must be included in any description.&nbsp; Indeed, these
observations would suggest a number of possibilities you have missed.&nbsp;
I will list a few of these phenomenon for discussion.&nbsp; Of course,
it is always possible to reject any or all of them in the same manner as
much about normal life is rejected to suit our limited worldview.
<p>1. Reincarnation :&nbsp; This phenomenon has been studied at great length
both by scientific means as well as by universal experience over many millennia.
This evidence shows that some, if not all, people existed in other bodies
in the past.&nbsp; If accepted, the process would suggest that after death
we each occupy another form that has the power to re-enter the physical
form.
<p>2. The psi phenomenon:&nbsp; This collection of effects and mechanisms
has been experienced by individuals to a greater or lesser degree throughout
history.&nbsp; Recently, investigations based on scientific methods have
revealed a universal characteristic to the effects.&nbsp; If accepted,
they suggest the existence of a reality much different from the one we
normally experience.
<p>3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:&nbsp; Sai Baba is an Avatar now living in
India who has powers that defy explanation.&nbsp; These are the same powers
that have been attributed to Christ and believed to be real by many people.
If believed, these powers show the existence of a reality parallel to but
invisible to the one we normally experience.&nbsp; Apparently, matter can
be easily transported between these two realities by the entities in the
other reality.&nbsp; This is only one of the many strange interactions
that appear to be possible.
<p>These three effects suggest the existence of a complex reality that
is largely invisible.&nbsp; Of course, religions preach this fact and many
people accept this idea.&nbsp; However, those of us who are of a scientific
bent want evidence. I suggest the three observations listed above are such
evidence - evidence that does not have to be accepted on faith.&nbsp; Naturally,
the <u>possibility</u> of such evidence needs to be accepted in order for
a person to be willing to take a look.&nbsp; The more effort taken to understand
these phenomenon, the more real they become.&nbsp;&nbsp; Not to labor the
point, but this is “cold fusion effect” all over again.&nbsp; The only
issue is whether a person has the courage and curiosity to explore that
which is threatening to his present views.
<p>Ed Storms
<p>Mitchell Jones wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Given the advanced age of many of the participants
in this group, the
<br>deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
<br>Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
<br>others, I am now going to plunge into a topic that some may find
<br>unsettling, but which is very relevant to this group--to wit: what
does
<br>reason have to say about the meaning of life?
<p>To begin, I ask that you all think back to the years before you came
into
<br>the world. During those times you had no physical existence, despite
the
<br>fact that the world, and likely the rest of the universe as well, was
<br>teeming with life. Every day, untold multitudes of new creatures were
<br>coming into existence and beginning their lives. Birds and insects
and
<br>spiders and fish and crabs were hatching, and mammalian mothers--monkeys
<br>and wolves and foxes and mice and tigers and humans and cattle and
on and
<br>on--were giving birth, on this world and on untold billions of others,
in
<br>this galaxy and elsewhere, in a universe where you did not exist. That
<br>means you did not see through any of those eyes, or hear through any
of
<br>those ears, or feel with any of that skin, or taste with those mouths,
or
<br>experience the images in those streams of consciousness.
<p>The question is: why not?
<p>The answer, I submit, is obvious: none of those teeming billions of
babies
<br>had the characteristics that were required in order to be you. Each
of them
<br>was a material entity whose development was set in motion and controlled
by
<br>genetic material, and in each of those cases, the entity that was produced
<br>did not have the traits which were required to enable you to see through
<br>its eyes, hear through its ears, etc.
<p>But then, on a backwater planet called Earth, in an obscure corner of
a
<br>universe teeming with life, there occurred a union of sperm and egg
which
<br>brought your state of nonexistence to an end. That union triggered
a
<br>sequence of development which produced the traits that were required
for a
<br>baby to be you, and so you appeared. This creature was different from
all
<br>the others: you saw through its eyes, heard through its ears, felt
with its
<br>skin, and you experienced directly the images in its mind.
<p>The question is: what was the nature of the characteristics which qualified
<br>that creature to be you?
<p>Well, they didn't have to do with your body: it is clear from experience
<br>that we can lose chunks of our bodies in the course of our lives and
still
<br>be who we are. Thus the characteristics that define the essence of
what we
<br>are must have to do with our minds. However, it is also clear that
those
<br>traits do not have to do with our conscious knowledge, since our conscious
<br>knowledge changes in large and discontinuous chunks throughout our
lives,
<br>as we add some pieces of information and forget others, while still
<br>remaining who we are. Therefore, the traits that define what we are,
<br>rendering us unique individuals, must dwell in the non-conscious parts
of
<br>our minds.
<p>But what can they be?
<p>In my view, it is our understandings concerning the nature of the world
<br>that render each of us unique. We come into the world with a vast store
of
<br>genetically encoded understanding that, despite its source in genetics,
<br>manifests itself to some specific and unique degree in each specific
<br>individual. For example, baby mice come into the world without the
<br>understanding that the noises made by adults of their species are the
<br>symbols of a complex language. Baby humans, on the other hand, treat
those
<br>sounds as a mystery to be solved, and because of that innate understanding,
<br>they proceed to figure out what the sounds mean, and thus teach themselves
<br>to speak. Note, however, that there is uniqueness in the manifestation
of
<br>such understanding: some children become much more intensely preoccupied
<br>with puzzling out the mystery of speech than others, and, as a consequence,
<br>they master the skill more rapidly than their peers. Thus the average
child
<br>begins to use sentences at about the age of two, whereas the extremely
<br>verbal child will do so before the end of his first year, and the child
<br>whose focus is elsewhere may not speak in sentences until he is four
or
<br>five. And there are many other examples that imply the existence of
<br>genetically encoded understanding: some children are, from the beginning,
<br>inclined to be passive receptacles into which authority figures can
place
<br>whatever beliefs they wish, while others are inclined to analyze input
from
<br>others, apply criticism, and only accept that which passes their tests.
<br>Still other children are inclined, virtually from birth, to try to
get
<br>their way by means of violence, or to lie or to steal, or to express
their
<br>disapproval by sulking, etc. Such behavior patterns, again, arise so
early
<br>in life that it is virtually inconceivable that they could be due to
<br>environment. It is far more likely, in my view, that they arise due
to the
<br>differing nuances of the genetically encoded understanding that we
bring
<br>with us into the world, and which defines who we are.
<p>As we live our lives, of course, we interact with our environment, receive
<br>new information, process it, and alter the patterns that are laid down
in
<br>the non-conscious parts of our minds: our understanding changes, and
the
<br>patterns by which we respond to stimuli change as well. What that means
is
<br>that the process of living life causes us to become different people
than
<br>we were: we learn and grow (or we shrink), but the changes take place
<br>gradually and in accordance with the principle of physical continuity
<br>(which we have extensively discussed here in the past), and, because
of the
<br>imperceptible incrementalism of the changes, we continue to see through
our
<br>eyes, feel with our skin, hear with our ears, etc., despite the gradual
<br>alteration of the understandings that defined who we were when first
we
<br>came into the world. Result: when, at the end of our lives, we die,
we pass
<br>into nonexistence with different understandings than those we had when
we
<br>entered the world.
<p>And after we die, we once again have no physical existence in the universe.
<br>Once again, in an immense universe teeming with life, in which untold
<br>billions of infants, of multitudinous species, spread throughout vast
<br>numbers of distant galaxies, are beginning new lives, we see through
no
<br>eyes, hear through no ears, feel with no skin, etc. Once again, none
of the
<br>squeaking, howling, clicking, screaming, buzzing, cheeping, croaking,
<br>squawking multitudes of new life is us: they do not exhibit, as they
enter
<br>the world, the characteristics that are required.
<p>But it is a mind-bogglingly big universe, and within its vast expanses
of
<br>space and time anything that can happen eventually will happen. That
means
<br>a day will come after your death when another infant is born who carries
<br>with him the unique characteristics that make him you. And when that
day
<br>comes, you will live again. Note, however, that the characteristics
<br>necessary to be you have been modified: you did not possess the same
<br>understanding of the world when you died as when you were born. Result:
in
<br>order to qualify as you this time around, a child will have to possess,
<br>when he begins his life, the understanding, but not the conscious
<br>knowledge, that you possessed when you died. That means if you moved
upward
<br>in your life, if you grew in terms of your understanding of the world,
then
<br>the genetic material of a species more advanced than humans will be
<br>necessary, in order to produce an infant that can qualify as you. And
if
<br>you slid downhill, if you had a weaker comprehension of the nature
of the
<br>world when you died than when you were born, then the genetic material
of a
<br>species less advanced than humans may be necessary to capture the essence
<br>of what you are.
<p>The implication: if at the end of your life you possess a much deeper
<br>understanding of the world, of freedom, and of the value of intellectual
<br>independence than you had when you began, then your next life is likely
to
<br>take place as a member of a species more mentally advanced than humans,
in
<br>a prosperous society where freedom and intellectual independence are
valued
<br>and protected. And if, at the end of your life, you hated freedom and
<br>intellectual independence, and understood less of the world than when
you
<br>began, then your next life is likely to take place as a member of a
species
<br>less mentally advanced than humans, in a world that is even more brutal,
<br>oppressive, and impoverished than Earth.
<p>As for the subjective time between death and the beginning of the next
<br>life, it is zero. Even if a hundred billion years passes before a new
life
<br>has the characteristics necessary to be you, you will not notice, because
<br>you will have no physical existence during that interval. To you, it
will
<br>seem as if no time elapsed at all. Death is, from this point of view,
<br>merely an episode of total amnesia: you lose your conscious knowledge
while
<br>retaining the full measure of your understanding, and your stream of
<br>consciousness is unbroken. This is the principle of continuity of mind.
<p>Bottom line: each mind is immortal. Each life ends in death, but each
<br>death, with the passage of sufficient time, begets a new life. The
sequence
<br>is unending, but the direction--upward or downward--is under your control.
<p>The moral of the story: be very, very careful what you become.
<p>--Mitchell Jones
<br>________________
<br>Quote of the month:
<p>"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can
only
<br>exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse
from
<br>the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes
for the
<br>candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with
the
<br>result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
<br>followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville</blockquote>
</html>

--------------232B94637055D093EDB5579D--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 08:36:29 2001
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:34:12 -0500
From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 07:04 AM 4/14/2001 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
> > This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be 
> due
> > to heat FLOW.
>
>Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
>over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.

I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change (i.e. 
force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the heat flow 
rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta exponentially.



Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 09:50:40 2001
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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
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Subject: RE: Peltier madness
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Because there are always so many potential artifacts when measuring the 
weight of a heated/cooled object in air, it would seem to be possible to 
put a lot of this to rest by putting the device on its side and measuring 
lateral force. That's more difficult than just putting it on a scale - I 
think it would require building a pretty sensitive balanced structure - but 
it could cut through a lot of the uncertainties here. Is that feasible?

Dan Quickert
> 

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rg>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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> >Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
> >over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.
>
> I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change
(i.e.
> force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the heat flow
> rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta exponentially.
>

********  I'm not sure.  There are several "rise times" involved here.
Consider:  when one places ones fingers on a bare Peltier surface, from the
instant current begins to flow, there is a delay time or rise time for
temperature.  Depending a lot on the thickness and dimensions of a
particular unit and it's ceramic faces, of course.
   Now when the surface ceramic of a Peltier is bonded to a thin layer of
copper or aluminum, the transfer of heat is of course very quick.  Heat then
begins to flow outward through the domains of the atoms composing the foil.
The rate is empirically measurable of course, by a number of means,
including finger, thermocouple, wax ball, etc.
  Perhaps the time of rise to maximum weight change relates directly to the
velocity and radial path area of heat propagating through a thin "pseudo-2D"
structure.  If the foil becomes too thin, the rate and amount of heat
radially propagated becomes very small, and thus the effect is minimal.  If
the copper or Al is too thick, then maybe some sort of coherency factor is
lost.
   When power is killed to the Peltier, the weight change does not go away
or reverse immediately, but requires a few seconds to return to starting
weight.  However, consider also that the flow of heat outward through the
foil does NOT cease immediately either.  With the cessation of the heat
pumping action of the Peltier, heat flows backwards through the couples, as
well as continuing outward until equilibrium is established.  So I would
suspect that if the effect was due to an esoteric property of the Peltier,
even with a large area radiator plane, the weight change effect would rise
and fall quickly.  This is certainly not the case, so we at least have that
as a valuable clue.  It also drives a few nails into the coffin of the
geomagnetic torque  theory.

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 11:22:56 2001
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From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> Because there are always so many potential artifacts when measuring the
> weight of a heated/cooled object in air, it would seem to be possible to
> put a lot of this to rest by putting the device on its side and measuring
> lateral force. That's more difficult than just putting it on a scale - I
> think it would require building a pretty sensitive balanced structure - but
> it could cut through a lot of the uncertainties here. Is that feasible?

Also, one might try to determine whether the apparent weight loss 
is "weight loss" or results from a change in the local vertical 
gravielectric field. And/or can a lateral field be somehow induced. 
There are some good precision, and relatively low cost, three-axis 
accelerometers available from Crossbow Technology, San Jose CA. 
These operate at static (g-field), to vibration frequencies, with 
resolutions up to 0.5 milli-g. These include internal precision 
voltage regulators and transducer electronics. All that is needed 
for use is: three mV meters, a bulk DC power source, and a standard 
ribbon cable-connector. Website:  www.xbow.com 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 13:29:50 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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Robert;

   Sometimes timing is everything.  I do currently have two shielded
accelerometers of high resolution from Endevco.  These are beauts, with an
output of 1V per g.  I have used them in other experiments, such as when I
was trying to replicate Orvin Wagner's tree xylem antigravity force.
   These would be very appropriate right now, however they are currently
installed inside an experiment package at the University of Toledo (looking
for acceleration forces near a heavy ion beam.)  Won't be able to get to
them for a while yet.
   Accelerometers also require extraordinary thermal shielding.  Differences
in T of only a degree C or so will induce a base strain artifact signal that
can swamp real outputs in the microvolt range.
   I am currently working out an arrangement to rent or lease a LaCoste and
Romberg gravity meter.  These are sweet also, with resolutions down to about
5 parts in 10^8.

Thanks for the input.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Stirniman" <robert skylink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Peltier madness

> Also, one might try to determine whether the apparent weight loss
> is "weight loss" or results from a change in the local vertical
> gravielectric field. And/or can a lateral field be somehow induced.
> There are some good precision, and relatively low cost, three-axis
> accelerometers available from Crossbow Technology, San Jose CA.
> These operate at static (g-field), to vibration frequencies, with
> resolutions up to 0.5 milli-g. These include internal precision
> voltage regulators and transducer electronics. All that is needed
> for use is: three mV meters, a bulk DC power source, and a standard
> ribbon cable-connector. Website:  www.xbow.com
>
> Regards,
> Robert Stirniman
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 14:30:14 2001
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It seems to me that compact water heating/cooling cavities
mounted on the ceramic faces possibly with a circulating pump would serve to check the
heat flow thrust effect,also  the C.O.P. and the thermoelectric efficiency of the
device.

This "heat looping" should also keep the device from
overheat destruction.

It might eliminate the need for running it in a vacuum, at least temporarily.

Regards,   Frederick

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More good stuff on String Theory and String Circle Particles
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:58:11 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:55:12
-0500:

>Do you buy this Robin?
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/13/big.bang.collision/index.html?s=8
>
>Regards,  Frederick
I agree with the inventor:
"I think that they are both interesting and both have the possibility of
being correct."
However I don't think either of them are correct.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:22:36 2001
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Aieeee,
    You think so too, eh!?  I have been wonderin about why none
of our probes seem to make it there.  However, some of the
failures are our own dumbass goofups.  For example the
'engineer' that mixed his English and metric units.  Oops!
Can't say English units anymore.  They went metric long ago.

    Personally, I would like to see us wait a few years, build a 
good ship for exploration of the solar system based on a type
of ionic drive with a nuclear power source.  This would make
them not so much an intelligent 'artillery shell', but more a real
ship.  We have a good start in the Deep Space One probe
that has run its engine on constant thrust for more than two
hundred million miles, yet has fuel for a good bit more 
maneuvering.   Design it like a 'Star Trek Voyager' type
model with the thrusters in the nacelles where they could
provide easy steering.  Make the whole thing big enough
so that all the relevant parts could be worked on from the
inside of the ship.  Even the nacelles with pressurized 
passageways where possible.  This would minimize
'space walks'.  If the nuclear engine were fusion based,
so much the better, then possibly a chromo-electrodynamic
type of engine could be used.  If we had functional anti
gravity, that could also be used for artificial gravity as well
as an inertial dampener.  I really do hope that Dr Ning Li
is on to something in that area.  Because if she is, then
all of the above could be combined to enable safe travel
at fantastic accelerations.
    However, if Mr Lazar is right and not just blowing smoke
about our governments black projects, then all bets are
off.  But then if he was right, why do we mess around with
junk like the EP-3 that we just made a present of to the
Chinese, along with all the black boxes inside.  Oh yes!
The famous button!  You just push it and POOF!  All the
secret material is GONE!?  Oh well, I guess I will just be
gullible like the rest of my American friends and watch
television while I wait up for the Easter Bunny tonight.
 ............Oh yeah, and I'll put that broken tooth under
my pillow for the Tooth Fairy too..........

        Standing Bear
        rockcast net-link.net



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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Some.... Peltier madness
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	Dear Folks,


	Some issues about PE Modules, or PEMs

	If you run them for longer than 3 to 4 seconds at their rated
several volts and 1 to 5 amps you MUST heat sink or they will fail
catastophically.  I have a moderate one rate at ~ 30 Watts Thermal and the
electrical is 12 VDC and 3.1 Amps.   You only need to HS the hot side.
But you must do this and not let it exceed 150 C.

	If you are going to do "weight" tests or GM, ...Gravity
Modification Tests, you must AT LEAST: 

	A)	Divorce the high current from the scale or balance if they are
electronic or if there are conductive and-or magnetic, in any way.

	B)	Be able to substitute a resistive load, or if the lead is
time variant in any  sort of meaningful time variant manner, the load
should be able to mimic this.
	What is meaningful?  If the physical mechanical momment or any
electrical or electronic time constant of the measuring method is near the
time constant of the load... this is meaningful.

	Example:  Let us say you were trying to measure the weight of a
(Hypothetical) "Bouncing Puppy Toy" which is a puppy on springs and a
little battry operated motor which bounces up and down 5 times a second.
..... and you put it on an electronic scale which has a circuit which
takes a measure 4 times every second and then averages the output.
	The "puppy" weighs 5 ounces, with batteries.....
	What will the scale "say" it weighs.


	See?


	AND:	It is also a good idea, as a first start, to try to
determine if there are any aspects of magnetic fields associated with the
leads going to your PEM (use a dummy) and the interaction of sich fields
with the Earth's fields.

	Here is a simple trick:

	find an all wooden table or go outside and make one with a 4 by 8
foot sheet of plywood and 4 plastic garbage cans,
	Get a GOOD compass... such as one the boyscouts or the milirary
would want to use. 

	First take any and all magnet and steel or iron out of your
pockets....
	

	Place the compass so the needle is pointing N and S 

	NOW:	Using a small Permanent Magnet, to be abbreviated PM,
and NOW a plastic flexible refridgerator magnet.  A PM that is NOT a horse
shoe shape and has poles.... start in a line from the middle of the magnet
on the non magnetic table, from the East 3 feet away with the pole of the
magnet pointed toward the compass.....
	SLOWLY bring the magnet toward the compass until the needle is at
45 degree angle of deflection or NE.  The ffield magnitude AT THE COMPASS
created by the magnet you are using is equal to the Earth's field.

	Mark this spot, mark where the magnet is.  Take the compass away. 
Replace the magnet.  Now....using a paper clip, or small nail, feel with
your hand ... see if you can sense the strength of the field .....from one
axis... Earth... and from another the magnet you used.  Not much..eh?

	
	Take a paper clip.  Bend it into a triangle, like a small pyramid
so it has a tall dimension.  And magnetize one "leg" by stroking it with a
PM .... ONE LEG ONLY.... you should be able to pick up or at least affect
other clips with you new "magnetic pyramid"
	Not real strong.... is it?

	Put this on the pan of the scale... and try different
orientations.

	AND:  Try small magnets and see if they weigh differently in
different orientations.    Only use small ones, please.

	Just some small field stuff.



On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, hamdi ucar wrote: 

> Hi Nick,
> 
>  I am late to read the thread for a week or more due a tragic event had occurred. Now I am reading them and trying find a solution.
> 
> Nick Reiter wrote:
> > 
> > Scott;
> > 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >  Or maybe
> > they can make me a Peltier with couples bonded right to a metal plane, ala
> > what I recall was a Hamdi suggestion.
> > 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 19:12:10 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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At 12:53 AM 4/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
>deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
>Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of

The underlying truth of all things is that there is no underlying truth of 
all things and the grand plan of "The Gods" is that there never was any 
grand plan.  What matters is what you do with every moment of life that you 
have.  This is what determines what you become.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 23:01:38 2001
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:55:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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>At 12:53 AM 4/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
>>deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
>>Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
>
>The underlying truth of all things is that there is no underlying truth of
>all things

***{I'm not sure what you mean by "underlying truth of all things," so I
find the above hard to evaluate. If you refer to conceptual systems such as
the supposed "unified field theory," then I completely agree: there will
never be a final understanding of physics, because there are no elementary
particles. All particles are aggregations of lesser particles: the parts
have parts, ad infinitum. Result: a further advancement in physical
understanding will always be possible to those who succeed in learning the
properties of the parts of which the latest supposed "elementary particles"
are composed. --MJ}***

and the grand plan of "The Gods" is that there never was any
>grand plan.

***{Yup, because there were no "gods," and there is no "God." :-) --MJ}***

What matters is what you do with every moment of life that you
>have. This is what determines what you become.

***{That is a plausible general statement, but the truth depends on the
specifics of what you have in mind.

In my view, a person's understandings of the world determine the tendencies
by which he responds to stimuli, and thus define the essence of what he is
at a given moment. Thus the most important task in life is to apply reason
to the data of one's experiences, and to maximize the rate of improvement
in one's understandings of the world. It is this activity that determines
what we become. And it is what we have become, at the end of our lives,
that determines the degree of advancement of the genetic material which
will be required to produce an infant with the understandings we had at the
times of our deaths.

I would also note that the most important of these understandings relate to
the values of such things as freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning,
and science. This is true because negative attitudes toward such things
arise out of misunderstandings that prevail in primitive societies, while
positive attitudes toward them arise out of understandings prevalent in
advanced societies. This is true because primitive societies cull out those
who value freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning, and science, with
the result that the gene pools in such societies do not produce very many
infants who are inclined to value such things. Thus the person who has less
understanding of freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning, and science
when he leaves this life than he when he came into it will probably begin
his next life in a more primitive society than the one he lived in on
Earth, in the body of a child of a species less intelligent than man. On
the other hand, a person who has improved his understandings of such
matters in the course of his life will be much more likely to begin his
next life in a more advanced society, in the body of a child of a more
intelligent species than man.

Bottom line: the next life will provide the reward or punishment,
respectively, for the understandings or misunderstandings that we develop
while living in the world of the present. (And, of course, the same thing
can be said of the next life, and the life after that, and so on.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:17:03 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:38:36
-0500:
[snip]
>>I suspect that one or the other of these is actually a charged particle
>>wind. That they "disappear" at a given altitude may just be because the
>>air gets so thin that collisions become uncommon, and the resultant
>>light becomes too dim to see. However as charged particle streams, I
>>suspect that their ultimate destination is the charged ionosphere.
>
>***{You are speculating about facts not in evidence. If we go by the
>evidence, the sprites dissipate at around 90 km. To suppose that they make
>it another 160 km in an invisible form and, additionally, have the capacity
>to interfere with UV, is of course your prerogative, but I'll put my money
>on the only theory that does not require us to go outside the realm of
>evidence--to wit: the small comet theory.

Given that large comets usually develop a tail well outside the Earth's
orbit, and keep it all the way around the sun and back again, until once
again well outside the Earth's orbit, I would not expect small comets to
behave any differently (being comprised of the same substances, and
subject to the same conditions).
In short I don't see why small comets sporting a long tail would not be
clearly seen as they approach the Earth. Yet they are not. This leads me
to the conclusion that they don't exist.

>
>I would also repeat what I said earlier: sprites are associated with
>thunderstorm activity, and thunderstorm activity does not tend to correlate
>with meteors, either seasonally, or in terms of their being associated with
>the trailing side of the Earth.


Nothing I have said earlier implies that there need be any direct
temporal or spatial association with sprites. They could simply be the
mechanism responsible for transporting mass to the ionosphere. When and
where it comes down again, could well be totally unrelated.
[snip]
>>>From http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/tmp/1981-070A-3.html :-
>>"The vacuum ultraviolet imaging photometer was a spin-scan Newtonian
>>telescope. The first optical element was an aluminum scanning mirror
>>with a MgF2 overcoat".
>>
>>From
>>http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/ch/ch795x_info/lecture/lecture8/brewster/brews
>>ter.html
>>"Brewster’s angle and total reflection
>>There are two useful properties of reflection that we discuss here.
>>Reflection at Brewster’s angle can be used to polarise an
>>electromagnetic wave."
>>
>>Now suppose that some natural mechanism in the atmosphere is responsible
>>for occasionally ensuring that UV light is polarised.
>
>***{You are going outside of the evidence again. :-) --MJ}***

No more than small comets go outside of the evidence, especially if
meteor activity is responsible for seeding the atmosphere with the
chemicals required for the polarising effect.
[snip]
>***{The difference between postulating small comets to account for the
>spots in the dayglow image and postulating either invisible 160 km sprite
>extensions that just happen to block UV

This is your misinterpretation of what I said.

>, or seemingly magical polarized
>spots in the ionosphere, is that (a) we know large comets exist, and (b) we
>know they didn't leap into existence full blown. 

Actually (b) is not true. We don't actually *know* how they were formed,
we just make educated guesses.


>Result: it would be
>reasonable to expect small comets to exist even in the absence of
>photographic imagery that seems to confirm their existence. The invisible
>sprite extensions and the magical polarized spots, however, have no
>independent facts suggesting their existence. 

If sprites do transport ions, then they have to go somewhere, though I
grant that they could just result in an accumulation of matter at the
apparent top of the sprite.

>Instead, their entire raison
>d'etre apparently lies in their serviceability in fending off the small
>comet theory. (If not, then what are the independent facts supporting their
>existence? :-)

When a straw is conveniently handy, grasp it! ;)

>
>And by the way, why would polarized spots of unknown etiology correlate
>with meteor showers?

See above.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 02:17:24 2001
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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Peltier madness
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:15:57 -0400
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Nick,

>snip>

Nick Reiter wrote:
>   Accelerometers also require extraordinary thermal shielding.
Differences
>in T of only a degree C or so will induce a base strain artifact signal
that
>can swamp real outputs in the microvolt range.
>I am currently working out an arrangement to rent or lease a LaCoste and
>Romberg gravity meter.  These are sweet also, with resolutions down to
about
>5 parts in 10^8.


***I am of the prejudice that the gravimeter is partially the reason why we
have this hardened and unquestioned belief that gravity is related to mass
and not to heat (which like gravity and mass is material independent).
Unfortunately for the idea that gravity is a heat-related phenomenon, the
gravimeter thermally adjusts the test mass which is inside it.

I hope you are aware of the fact when NASA and the student Huntley at Wright
state used the gravimeter to investigate the Podkletnov effect, they got a
null result and effectively killed the Podkletnov effect.

Also of the fact that Saxl's 5 % change of weight of a torsion pendulum
during a solar eclipse was never easily replicated because of various
attempts to remove the influence of heat.

Finally, however, Saxl's work has been replicated with a gravity meter.
Nevertheless what was observed was much smaller than Saxl's 5 % change.
Because using the gravimeter is somehow more scientific people will rely on
its finding and summarily dismiss Saxl's extraordinary and disturbing  5 %
change.  What is more obvious thing that happens during a solar eclipse is
that there is a temperature drop due to the moon's shadow?

The reference for this gravimeter work is

Qian-shen Wang et al., "Precise measurement of gravity variations during a
total solar eclipse," Phys. Rev. D. 62, 041101 (R)(2000).

There has been so many attempts to relate the gravitational force to
electricity and magnetism over the centuries and what have they amounted to?
Now with Peltier device (and my work)we are getting some strong indications
that gravity is related to heat.

But lets not trust what our mind is telling us.  The mind is a tool.  Why
claim to be scientific if the findings of the mind are summarily thrown out
and only the results of experiments are allowed to influence how we view
nature?  I admit experiments are important in helping us understand nature.
However to dismiss what the mind is telling is throwing out a great tool
that we have at our disposal to finally understand nature of gravity.

Peter




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 05:03:32 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010415025029.218A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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John;

I (Nick Reiter) was writing this.

What I am referring to is this. (when inserting comments into e-mails, I
always preface my addition with ***)

Since 1996, and even earlier, I have explored possible avenues for
anti-gravity or propulsion forces.  Since 1997, a number of my experiments
have been supported by my benefactor and colleague, Dr. Harold McMaster.
Many of these have been suggested by Dr. McMaster's theory of space and
gravity.  Others have been of either my own discovery, or arise from my own
intuitive models.  And another portion of my work has been to try to
replicate claims of earlier researchers, much like Scott does at Earth-Tech.
   Along all of these avenues there have been mostly negative results,
relative to the number of experiments we've tried.  Every so often, I will
observe a surprising or seemingly positive effect.  What I then am obligated
to do is to initiate a sort of "gauntlet", and begin to eliminate possible
artifacts as best I can.  Sometimes this takes almost no time at all, and I
slap myself on the head after 5 minutes and say "Geez, I shoulda seen that
one".  Other times, I will play with an effect for weeks, before I finally
discovered the mundane reason for it.  The trickiest of these was what I
thought was a replication of Ed Wagner's tree xylem force effect using ionic
solutions forced through wood tubules.  This was the one that turned out to
be very minute stresses on my accelerometers due to small temperature
changes.
   On three occasions, since 1997, I saw what appeared to be a genuine
effect that did seem reproducible for a period of say several days, but then
went away never to arise again.  These have been the heart breakers, as I
never could find any artifact for them.  But I never got them to come back
either.  One of these was an arrangement using a 4" diameter YBCO ring with
toroidal windings on it.  Saw a weight INCREASE of a test mass suspended
over it.  Never got it again though after the first day...

There are currently three effects that I have observed, and am still working
with, that have survived the artifact gauntlet over many weeks or months
time.  These are my "golden boys" so to speak, where I am focusing my best
efforts.  Now heed the caveat - any of these three effects COULD at any time
fall away, with the right experiment producing repeated negative results.
The Peltier / heat / weight change effect has clung on, and I still am
working on it because I am still seeing results even in the presence of
insulation, etc.  However, if I can perform the tests in a vacuum bell, and
the effect goes away in all cases, then that one will be done for; put up on
a shelf.

The other two robust survivors are:

1.  Weight change effects of a hemispherical high energy density capacitor
charged to a high potential.
2.  A film structure that produces a substrate weight anisotropy.


NR




> What is the effect that stayed the longest by was chased out as
> artifact?  Please.
>
> I can not figure out who is writing this ....
>
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Nick Reiter wrote:
>

> > >
> > *******  Breath deep and fret not.  It will work itself out.  I concur
that
> > of all the initially promising type phenomena that I have chased, that
> > eventually got cast out for artifact, this one has clung on the longest.
I
> > hope it's not destined to end up like the Biefeld Brown effect, being
argued
> > over yet, 70 years later!!!
> >
> >
> > NR
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 05:08:19 2001
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References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010411212107.0324d258 earthtech.org>
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Nick Reiter wrote:

... We turn power on, such that heat is
pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight
increase takes place over about 8 seconds.

Scott Little wrote:

This slow response suggests that the effect you are
observing cannot be due to heat FLOW ...

Instead, I think the timing of the effect you are observing
suggests that it is a temperature effect.

Peter Fred wrote:

Now with Peltier device (and my work) we are getting
some strong indications that gravity is related to heat.

Hi All,

I agree that, if there is an effect,
it is a temperature effect.  In this regard,
it's interesting to review Cavendish's original 
experiments to determine big G.

Jack Smith

From:

 Cavendish, Henry.  "Experiments to
 determine the Density of the Earth",
 Philosophical Transactions of the Royal
 Society of London, Vol. 88, 1798, p.249-284.   

p. 283

"...  As to the difference in the motion of the
arm, it may very well be accounted for, from the
current of produced by the difference of
temperature; but, whether this can account
for the difference in the time of vibration,
is doubtful.

If the current of air was regular,
and of the same swiftness in all parts of the
vibration of the ball, I think it could not;
but as there will most likely be much 
irregularity in the current, it may very likely
be sufficient to account for the difference.

p. 284

By a mean of experiments made with the wire
first used, the density of the earth comes
out 5.48 times greater than that of water; ...

It, indeed, may be objected,
that as the result appears to be influnenced
by the current of air, OR SOME OTHER CAUSE,
THE LAWS OF WHICH WE ARE NOT WELL ACQUAINTED
WITH, this cause may perhaps act always,
or commonly, in the same direction and
thereby make a considerble error in the result ..."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 06:30:26 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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I once took a 4 inch radio speaker and set it cone-up
on the kitchen table and poured some table salt into the cone and hooked it to a 6.3
volt 60 Hz filament transformer, to see how far up the salt grains would fly.

I think if one set the speaker on a balance and secured a glass or metal plate over it
so that the high momentum grains could strike the plate there might be an upward
thrust developed on it.

Also adding some glass beads or such to simulate the heavier atoms/molecules of a
solid along with the salt might prove interesting.

IOW, this is analogous to heat flow vibrations and possibly the development of a net
force in the direction of heat flow due to electron/phonon interaction.

Driving the speaker with an audio oscillator or the signal from a local rock station
might even prove more interesting (if you use rock salt).  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 08:30:46 2001
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Nick Reiter wrote:
>    Accelerometers also require extraordinary thermal shielding.  Differences
> in T of only a degree C or so will induce a base strain artifact signal that
> can swamp real outputs in the microvolt range.

Hi Nick. You got it. One might also consider whether the madness lies 
in the assumption that the signal is an artifact. There are a variety of 
technologies, methods, and practices in accelerometers. The amount of 
"artifact" would be expected to vary among these. Also, it would be 
telling if the assumed artifact happens to correlate with a variety of
weight measuring instruments.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 13:04:17 2001
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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:00:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:38:36
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>>I suspect that one or the other of these is actually a charged particle
>>>wind. That they "disappear" at a given altitude may just be because the
>>>air gets so thin that collisions become uncommon, and the resultant
>>>light becomes too dim to see. However as charged particle streams, I
>>>suspect that their ultimate destination is the charged ionosphere.
>>
>>***{You are speculating about facts not in evidence. If we go by the
>>evidence, the sprites dissipate at around 90 km. To suppose that they make
>>it another 160 km in an invisible form and, additionally, have the capacity
>>to interfere with UV, is of course your prerogative, but I'll put my money
>>on the only theory that does not require us to go outside the realm of
>>evidence--to wit: the small comet theory.
>
>Given that large comets usually develop a tail well outside the Earth's
>orbit, and keep it all the way around the sun and back again, until once
>again well outside the Earth's orbit, I would not expect small comets to
>behave any differently (being comprised of the same substances, and
>subject to the same conditions).
>In short I don't see why small comets sporting a long tail would not be
>clearly seen as they approach the Earth. Yet they are not. This leads me
>to the conclusion that they don't exist.

***{The conventional view is that comets come into existence by a process
of gradual accumulation, in dimly lighted and extraordinarily cold regions
far outside the orbit of Pluto. In those regions, materials that would
sublimate directly to gaseous form in the inner solar system remain
entirely frozen, and so objects consisting primarly of water, carbon
dioxide, methane, and ammonia ice--comets--can and do form there.
Regardless of whether one supposes that these accumulative processes take
place in the supposed spherical Oort cloud, or in the disk known as the
Kuiper belt, it is obvious that they require the existence of small comets.
The alternative, as already noted, would be to suppose that large comets
somehow come into existence full-blown, without there being any process of
aggregation of lesser bodies. To satisfy that requirement, you have
suggested that comets are created when a planet that has vast oceans, for
some unknown reason, explodes. In that case, presumably, vast globs of
material from the former oceans coalesce together in the deepfreeze of
outer space, forming huge comets, without there ever having been a phase of
gradual accumulation. However, as I have already pointed out, such a
hypothesis begs the question, and the question is: where did the water in
the oceans come from, during the period when the planet formed, prior to
exploding? The required answer, it would seem, is that the water came from
small comets. Thus your theory, in addition to going outside the evidence
by postulating that planets can explode, does not in fact achieve the goal
of explaining how large comets can exist in a universe where there are no
small comets.

So, to address your objection directly, why don't small comets have tails
that render them visible as they approach Earth? The answer: they probably
did, millions or billions of years ago, when they first passed into the
inner solar system. However, with each pass into the inner solar system, a
comet loses some of its more volatile components, due to the process of
degassing that produces a tail. Those components are carried away by the
solar wind. Result: the tail of a comet becomes less prominent with each
pass and, after its volatile components have been lost, it ceases to have a
tail and thereafter passes invisibly through the inner solar system.
Result: it is only the larger comets, or smaller ones that were recently
dislodged from their orbits in the outer reaches of the solar system, that
are capable of exhibiting prominent tails when they approach the sun. And
since the dislodging of comets from their orbits, whether in the Kuiper
belt or the supposed Oort cloud, requires the approach of a massive body
from outside the solar system, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that
the last such event was millions of years ago. Result: enough time has
elapsed for the smaller Earth-crossing comets to discharge all of their
volatiles, with the consequence that it is only the larger Earth-crossing
comets which still exhibit prominent tails as they the approach the sun.

By the way, there is a wonderful book dealing with geological evidence
about the periodic nature of mass extinctions on Earth, and with the
likelihood that, every few million years, the sun is closely approached by
a dark companion, which disturbes the orbits of comets in the outer solar
system, thereby throwing vast numbers of new comets into Earth-crossing
orbits. The book is called *Nemesis: the Death Star*, by Dr. Robert
Mueller. (Mueller is an academic physicist and colleague of Dr. Luis
Alvarez, who first theorized that the dinosaurs were killed off by an
impactor from space.) It is a hell of a read, for persons who are
interested in speculative physics, and I recommend it highly. (Note: the
book is presently out-of-print. However, I still see copies of it in used
book stores, so it should be fairly easy to obtain.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>I would also repeat what I said earlier: sprites are associated with
>>thunderstorm activity, and thunderstorm activity does not tend to correlate
>>with meteors, either seasonally, or in terms of their being associated with
>>the trailing side of the Earth.
>
>
>Nothing I have said earlier implies that there need be any direct
>temporal or spatial association with sprites. They could simply be the
>mechanism responsible for transporting mass to the ionosphere. When and
>where it comes down again, could well be totally unrelated.

***{Are you saying that the sprites transport UV absorbing materials into
the stratosphere above thunderstorms, that the material in question somehow
coheres together while drifting around in the ionosphere, and only absorbs
UV when in the vicinity of meteor impacts? If so, what mechanism would
produce such an effect? --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>>>From http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/tmp/1981-070A-3.html :-
>>>"The vacuum ultraviolet imaging photometer was a spin-scan Newtonian
>>>telescope. The first optical element was an aluminum scanning mirror
>>>with a MgF2 overcoat".
>>>
>>>From
>>>http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/ch/ch795x_info/lecture/lecture8/brewster/bre
>>>ws
>>>ter.html
>>>"Brewster’s angle and total reflection
>>>There are two useful properties of reflection that we discuss here.
>>>Reflection at Brewster’s angle can be used to polarise an
>>>electromagnetic wave."
>>>
>>>Now suppose that some natural mechanism in the atmosphere is responsible
>>>for occasionally ensuring that UV light is polarised.
>>
>>***{You are going outside of the evidence again. :-) --MJ}***
>
>No more than small comets go outside of the evidence

***{As noted above, the absence of tails on small comets is entirely to be
expected, since they would discharge all of their volatiles more quickly
than their larger brethren. Moreover, this process of loss of volatiles is
an observed fact: even Halley's comet is much less visible in its recent
passes through the inner solar system than it was in its heyday, several
centuries ago. Thus the absence of tails on small comets falls within the
existing evidence rather than outside of it. --MJ}***

, especially if
>meteor activity is responsible for seeding the atmosphere with the
>chemicals required for the polarising effect.

***{The chemicals required, based on the spectroscopic evidence, are
roughly 100 tons of water. (The spots of missing dayglow occur on the
absorption frequencies of water.) Since the events are not visible from the
ground, the implication is that the sources contain very little solid
material--which means: they are not meteors, but small comets. --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>***{The difference between postulating small comets to account for the
>>spots in the dayglow image and postulating either invisible 160 km sprite
>>extensions that just happen to block UV
>
>This is your misinterpretation of what I said.

***{Perhaps you should specify the mechanism you have in mind, in order to
avoid misinterpretation. :-) --MJ}***

>>, or seemingly magical polarized
>>spots in the ionosphere, is that (a) we know large comets exist, and (b) we
>>know they didn't leap into existence full blown.
>
>Actually (b) is not true. We don't actually *know* how they were formed,
>we just make educated guesses.

***{Knowledge is reason-based belief. Since reasoning errors are possible,
knowledge is subject to an ongoing process of adjustment, as logical errors
and/or new facts are pointed out. It cannot, however, be overturned by
merely noting out that errors are possible. Instead, you have to actually
*find* the new facts (by research or experimentation) and/or the logical
errors (by analysis), and point them out. (It's real sad! :-) --MJ}***

>>Result: it would be
>>reasonable to expect small comets to exist even in the absence of
>>photographic imagery that seems to confirm their existence. The invisible
>>sprite extensions and the magical polarized spots, however, have no
>>independent facts suggesting their existence.
>
>If sprites do transport ions, then they have to go somewhere, though I
>grant that they could just result in an accumulation of matter at the
>apparent top of the sprite.

***{Could? Are you suggesting that such matter could move from regions
above thunderstorms to regions of meteor activity without passing through
the intervening space? Or that it could somehow cohere together--i.e.,
avoid dissipation--while moving through thousands of kilometers of
atmosphere? How could such phenomena occur? It looks to me like you are
rending the fabric of physics rather severely here, Robin! --MJ}***

>>Instead, their entire raison
>>d'etre apparently lies in their serviceability in fending off the small
>>comet theory. (If not, then what are the independent facts supporting their
>>existence? :-)
>
>When a straw is conveniently handy, grasp it! ;)
>
>>
>>And by the way, why would polarized spots of unknown etiology correlate
>>with meteor showers?
>
>See above.

***{As noted above, the only way meteors can seed the atmosphere with the
required 100 tons of water per impact while remaining invisible from the
ground is if they are not meteors, but small comets. --MJ}***

>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 13:24:16 2001
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-----Original Message-----
From: jack granger.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@granger.centurytel.net]On
Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 7:04 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Peltier madness



Nick Reiter wrote:

... We turn power on, such that heat is
pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight
increase takes place over about 8 seconds.

Scott Little wrote:

This slow response suggests that the effect you are
observing cannot be due to heat FLOW ...

Instead, I think the timing of the effect you are observing
suggests that it is a temperature effect.

Peter Fred wrote:

Now with Peltier device (and my work) we are getting
some strong indications that gravity is related to heat.

Hi All,

I agree that, if there is an effect,
it is a temperature effect.  In this regard,
it's interesting to review Cavendish's original
experiments to determine big G.

Jack Smith

***You may know that P.E. Shaw found in 1915 that the big G varied by as
much as 10^-5 per degree C.  Subsequently he found this evidence was
probably spurious and concluded that the effect was probably less than 2 X
10^-6 per degree C.

See P.E. Shaw and N. Davy Phys. Rev. Second Series, Vol 21, March, 1923.

Because of the dark matter problem we have never had stronger evidence that
something may be seriously wrong with our 300-year-old mass-based gravity
theory. Recently with the finding that the Universe is accelerating and a
repulsive type dark energy which has to comprise 70 % to 99 % of the mass of
the Universe, we have all the more an indication that something may be
seriously wrong with our traditional gravity theory.

But why should we just modify the presently accepted theory as did the
Scholastics with the Polemic system.  We should follow the leadership of
Copernicus or Darwin and come up with a new fundamental to base
gravitational phenomena on.  The trouble with this approach is that it takes
years and years to figure out how that new fundamental relates to phenomena.
I have done this and I have spelled out in my paper, after 20 years of
thinking about it, just how heat is related to gravity.

And now with 2-3 kW of heat directed into a hemisphere I have  gotten ~3 %
change of weight.   With this Peltier device Nick has produced a comparable
or better effect. (I have even gotten a ~0.54% or a  ~0.9 mg increase in
weight using a Peltier device with very low input power.)

Nevertheless, why are not the problems with the dark matter and these recent
experimental results motivation enough for someone to download and actually
read my paper and see whether or not a heat-based gravity theory makes more
sense than the presently accepted  mass-based one?

A theory gives one a sense of direction.  Experiments are time consuming and
costly.  The establishment physics is spending millions looking for gravity
waves.  They are stuck with a theory that directs them to do this.  But why
should we be just as blinded by scrupulously avoiding any theory an only
dealing with experiments?

Regards

Peter Fred

"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat"

http://pbfred.tripod.com/




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 13:59:25 2001
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Peter Fred wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jack granger.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@granger.centurytel.net]On
> Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith

> ...But why should we just modify the presently accepted theory as did the
> Scholastics with the Polemic system.  We should follow the leadership of
> Copernicus or Darwin and come up with a new fundamental to base
> gravitational phenomena on.  The trouble with this approach is that it takes
> years and years to figure out how that new fundamental relates to phenomena.

But Larson has developed a new fundamental theory of gravity  and his
theory has been developed since
1958!

See     http://www.rsystem.org/isus
        http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/isus/
        http://www.rsystem.org/isus

Best Regards,
Hoyt Stearns
Phoenix

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Hi, Nick. See my comments below:

Nick Reiter wrote:

> There are currently three effects that I have observed, and am still working
> with, that have survived the artifact gauntlet over many weeks or months
> time.  These are my "golden boys" so to speak, where I am focusing my best
> efforts.  Now heed the caveat - any of these three effects COULD at any time
> fall away, with the right experiment producing repeated negative results.
> The Peltier / heat / weight change effect has clung on, and I still am
> working on it because I am still seeing results even in the presence of
> insulation, etc.  However, if I can perform the tests in a vacuum bell, and
> the effect goes away in all cases, then that one will be done for; put up on
> a shelf.
> 
> The other two robust survivors are:
> 
> 1.  Weight change effects of a hemispherical high energy density capacitor
> charged to a high potential.

Are your results posted somewhere? This statement sounds like T.T.
Brown's U.S. patent #3187206, and Agnew Bahnson's U.S. patents #2958790,
3223038, 3227901, and 3263102. Bahnson's patents use hemispheres.
Brown's patent might. All are very interesting. Have you tried their
variations?

> 2.  A film structure that produces a substrate weight anisotropy.

Are your results posted? What does this mean? Can you describe this a 
little?

Thanks.

David Rosignoli

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 22:10:48 2001
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010411212107.0324d258 earthtech.org>
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Nick wrote:
>...Here is what the typical action looks like,
>using one of the smaller devices in the foil envelope; the baseline so to
>speak, where one might see perhaps 3 mg of weight change.  We turn power on,
>such that heat is pumped downward by the Peltier.  The weight increase takes
>place over about 8 seconds.  Usually by this time, the whole package seems
>to get hot, and the weight tends to slowly drop back to initial levels,
>though usually does not swing the opposite way.
>   When the system cools back off to ambient, we reverse polarity at the
>supply such that the "top" is now the hot face.  The same general sequence
>now occurs, but in reverse.
>...
>   While obviously nobody but myself and the couple of other guys who are
>usually lurking around the lab at lunch time can bear witness to it, I have
>to say that indeed, we did observe the 30mg weight changes up and down with
>the unit wrapped in baggie, then kaowool.
>   I acknowledge that the only ultimate answer to the convection possibility
>will come with a vacuum bell jar test.  Heat is indeed capable of radiating
>through thin plastic, and even kaowool, although I would have thought that
>would have attenuated it to a noticeable degree.

I wonder if you have considered the "hot air balloon effect"?
It seems to predict these results rather well.
Here is a little maths to support it :-

1 mole of air (~28grams) at S.T.P has a volume of 22.4 litres,
thus 1cc of air weighs of order 1mg.
Supposing you have a 10cm x 10cm (x 1cm deep thus weighing ~100mg) layer
of air in a matrix of kaowool in contact with the upper surface of the
peltier, and supposing this volume of air rises/falls by ~30 degrees K.
It will increase/decrease in volume by 30/300K = ~10% displacing 10cc
of air and weighing 10mg more/less.  This is of the same order of weight
gain/loss that you are observing, matches the direction of the force
that you are observing, and also matches the time delay that you are
observing.

Around 10/4/01 John Winterflood (in replies to Jed,) wrote:
>>>Supposing one side (ie top) of the peltier had access to a larger
>>>volume of air within the plastic bag than the other side, then it
>>>could make that volume of air get warm - generating lift, and then
>>>cold - getting heavier, like a hot air balloon . . .
>
>If there is mostly solid (ie a metal plate) to absorb the heat at the
>bottom, then it won't expand significantly when heat is pumped into
>it.  If there is a volume of gas at the top (rather than metal) then
>it will expand when heat is pumped into it (and vice-versa when heat
>is sucked out).  A plastic bag will not sustain pressure without
>expanding unless it is already blown up quite taut (It also won't
>sustain a negative pressure without collapsing).
>
If the device is turned upside-down...
>... then the weight of the peltier squashes the gas away from the
>underneath back to a large bubble on the top again... and because
>the top now has the reversed hot/cold polarity, the weight loss/gain
>also reverses!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Apr 15 22:24:45 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:21:25 +1000
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:00:02
-0500:
[snip]
>aggregation of lesser bodies. To satisfy that requirement, you have
>suggested that comets are created when a planet that has vast oceans, for
>some unknown reason, explodes. In that case, presumably, vast globs of
>material from the former oceans coalesce together in the deepfreeze of
>outer space, forming huge comets, without there ever having been a phase of
>gradual accumulation. However, as I have already pointed out, such a
>hypothesis begs the question, and the question is: where did the water in
>the oceans come from, during the period when the planet formed, prior to
>exploding? The required answer, it would seem, is that the water came from
>small comets. 

Not necessarily. It could have accreted directly into the planet from
the vapour state, or even as ions that were neutralised upon contact.

>Thus your theory, in addition to going outside the evidence
>by postulating that planets can explode, 


The asteroid belt is part of the remainder of that planet. According to
Sitchin, the Earth itself is the rest. It didn't just explode, it was
smashed to pieces by the moons of Nibiru when it invaded our solar
system. Another solar system upset caused by Nibiru is the weird
rotation of Uranus.

>does not in fact achieve the goal
>of explaining how large comets can exist in a universe where there are no
>small comets.
>
>So, to address your objection directly, why don't small comets have tails
>that render them visible as they approach Earth? The answer: they probably
>did, millions or billions of years ago, when they first passed into the
>inner solar system. However, with each pass into the inner solar system, a
>comet loses some of its more volatile components, due to the process of
>degassing that produces a tail. Those components are carried away by the
>solar wind. Result: the tail of a comet becomes less prominent with each
>pass and, after its volatile components have been lost, it ceases to have a
>tail and thereafter passes invisibly through the inner solar system.

In the inner solar system, water is also volatile, particularly if the
surface of the comet is black, so small water based comets should have
tails.
IOW no tail, no water, no comet.
[snip]
>>Nothing I have said earlier implies that there need be any direct
>>temporal or spatial association with sprites. They could simply be the
>>mechanism responsible for transporting mass to the ionosphere. When and
>>where it comes down again, could well be totally unrelated.
>
>***{Are you saying that the sprites transport UV absorbing materials into
>the stratosphere above thunderstorms, that the material in question somehow
>coheres together while drifting around in the ionosphere, and only absorbs
>UV when in the vicinity of meteor impacts? If so, what mechanism would
>produce such an effect? --MJ}***
>

Ok, it's ridiculous. I'll drop this one.
[snip]
>>meteor activity is responsible for seeding the atmosphere with the
>>chemicals required for the polarising effect.
>
>***{The chemicals required, based on the spectroscopic evidence, are
>roughly 100 tons of water. 

This assumes it's own result. The spectroscopic evidence is only that at
the frequencies measured, spots appeared. Yes, water absorbtion could be
the cause, but so could polarisation related black spots.

>(The spots of missing dayglow occur on the
>absorption frequencies of water.)

Not surprising, since water absorbs at almost all frequencies.
(IOW the "match" that would appear to uniquely identify water, is in
fact not a unique identification at all). There are also many other
substances with broad UV absorbtion spectra.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 06:51:05 -0400
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David;

> > 1.  Weight change effects of a hemispherical high energy density
capacitor
> > charged to a high potential.
>
> Are your results posted somewhere? This statement sounds like T.T.
> Brown's U.S. patent #3187206, and Agnew Bahnson's U.S. patents #2958790,
> 3223038, 3227901, and 3263102. Bahnson's patents use hemispheres.
> Brown's patent might. All are very interesting. Have you tried their
> variations?

******  Several variations.  The essential principle I was shooting for here
is a bit different.  It relates to using hemispherically distributed energy
to produce an effect analagous to a diverging optical lens - all part of
testing Dr. McMaster's theory of gravity as a result of accelerating or
converging space flow into mass.
   No results posted online yet.

> > 2.  A film structure that produces a substrate weight anisotropy.
>
> Are your results posted? What does this mean? Can you describe this a
> little?

*******  This one would take a while to describe.  In simplest words, a film
structure that produces an effect whereby the substrate weighs differently
whether film side up or film side down.  Again, not posted, and no further
commentary until I have some independent confirmation done.  It is a design
I came up with based on an idea of creating a planar region of vacuum mode
cancellation.  Needs MANY very careful tests yet.

In both these cases and others, I have been limited inasmuch as I am quite
computer illiterate, and any postings to say, the Avalon website, take a
number of weeks because of the workload of the fellow who maintains that
site.  One of these days, I hope that we can get a website together for
McMaster Gravity Research.

NR
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 07:48:55 2001
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:43:25 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010414103226.0355efd0 earthtech.org>
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Scott Little wrote:

 > This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be due
>> > to heat FLOW.
>>
>>Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
>>over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.
>
>I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change 
>(i.e. force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the heat 
>flow rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta exponentially.

It seems to me that this issue, along with many others, can be resolved 
easily by substituting a joule heater with about the same mass. That should 
be a high priority, in my opinion. A blank experiment is essential.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 08:01:43 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:37:39 -0700
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Ok,
	So anyone calculate, based on the number of sightings of these dark comets,
the estimated total mass of "dark" water comets in our solar system alone?

I estimate it would be a staggering number.

As to the escape velocity of a planet contributing to its lack of water, I
read somewhere there is a cutoff point for water vapor dissociations and the
gravity of a planetoid.
Or would the fact that the daytime Mars temperature is enough to melt water,
and the presence of enough Ultraviolet light and Infrared energy on Mars
surface, is enough to disassociate the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, the
oxygen being bound up in soil peroxides.

There is clear evidence of water on mars, and it may just be underground and
locked up.

Mars needs a long term surveyor, including atmospheric studies with
ultraviolet and infrared to determine if the Small Dark Water comet belt
extends out to Mars.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:44 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?

In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:12:06 -0500:
[snip]
Hi Mitchell,
>>>
>>>You suggest that there are many small comets that supply water. This is
>>>based on photographic evidence of said comets on Earth.
>>>The problem is however that the black spots on the Earth photos are not
>>>comets. They are the spots where UFO's are diffracting light.
>>
>>***{Either that, or cows jumping over the moon. :-) --MJ}***
>
>***{Robin, in case you were serious, check out this link, and then tell me
>how the black spots could be UFO's. See
>http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/blackspot.html. (This is a scientific
>detective story worth reading for entertainment value alone, by the way.)
>--MJ}***
[snip]
The number / year calculated is based upon the assumption that each is a
different object. If they are UFOs with continually varying degrees of
diffraction of UV light then they would appear and disappear again. I.e.
one would be seeing the same craft (pl) over and over again.
As to their size, it need not represent the actual size of the craft
involved, only the size of the gravitational field surrounding the
craft, which bends the light resulting in an apparent black cloud.
(BTW I did read it, and if it upset so many people, just imagine how
many would be upset by my version ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 08:31:07 2001
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:26:40 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 10:43 AM 4/16/01 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:


> > This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be due
>>> > to heat FLOW.
>>>
>>>Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
>>>over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.
>>
>>I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change 
>>(i.e. force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the 
>>heat flow rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta 
>>exponentially.
>
>It seems to me that this issue, along with many others, can be resolved 
>easily by substituting a joule heater with about the same mass. That 
>should be a high priority, in my opinion. A blank experiment is essential.

hmmmm.  I've been thinking Nick should run a resistor instead of the 
Peltier device also lately...but for a completely different reason.  If his 
latest hypothesis about heat flow has any merit, he should be able to see 
some sign of the effect just by using a properly configured heat 
SOURCE...instead of a heat PUMP.

John Winteflood's hot-air balloon idea is good...except that I can't see 
how it could function as a cold-air balloon for weight gain.  True the 
Peltier devices do make one side cold but it's only cold briefly under 
these conditions...then everything gets hotter than ambient.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 09:43:19 2001
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:33:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Red Planet Couldn't Hold It's Water?
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:00:02
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>aggregation of lesser bodies. To satisfy that requirement, you have
>>suggested that comets are created when a planet that has vast oceans, for
>>some unknown reason, explodes. In that case, presumably, vast globs of
>>material from the former oceans coalesce together in the deepfreeze of
>>outer space, forming huge comets, without there ever having been a phase of
>>gradual accumulation. However, as I have already pointed out, such a
>>hypothesis begs the question, and the question is: where did the water in
>>the oceans come from, during the period when the planet formed, prior to
>>exploding? The required answer, it would seem, is that the water came from
>>small comets.
>
>Not necessarily. It could have accreted directly into the planet from
>the vapour state, or even as ions that were neutralised upon contact.

***{A molecule has no way of knowing the size of the object onto which it
is accreting. Thus a molecule that would accrete onto a planet would also
accrete onto a dust grain of the same composition. And, obviously, if there
were a relative overabundance of water molecules relative to the molecules
of the sorts that comprised the dust, then the bodies that grew up as a
result of the accretion process would be primarily water--which means: they
would not be meteors, but small comets. Bottom line: any reasonable theory
by which you attempt to explain the presence of oceans on a planetary body
implies the existence of small comets. --MJ}***

>>Thus your theory, in addition to going outside the evidence
>>by postulating that planets can explode,
>
>
>The asteroid belt is part of the remainder of that planet. According to
>Sitchin, the Earth itself is the rest. It didn't just explode, it was
>smashed to pieces by the moons of Nibiru when it invaded our solar
>system.

***{It is perfectly plausible that there could be a rogue planet, because
stars are themselves formed by a process of gradual accretion--which means:
they start off as rogue planets. (The alternative is to assume they leap
into existence full-blown, which makes no more sense in the case of stars
than it makes in the case of large comets.) However, unless Sitchin's rogue
planet (Nibiru) were in an orbit which had a plane far outside of the
planetary disc of the solar system, there should be a vastly greater amount
of disruption in the outer solar system than there appears to be, given the
orbital period you mentioned earlier (3600 years, as I recall). And if the
plane of Nibiru's orbit were far from that of the other planets, then so to
would be the orbits of the asteroids. However, that is not the case: the
vast majority of asteroids are in perfectly normal, low eccentricity,
prograde orbits within the planetary disc. This suggests to me that the
asteroid belt is merely a region in which a planet is in the process of
forming, rather than a region in which a planet has already been formed and
destroyed.

Note: if you go back far enough, the orbits of all the other planets will
be found to be rings of dust. Later, due to the gravitational accretion
process, each such ring became an asteroid belt. And, finally, the
asteroids accreted together to become a planet. In my view, the present
asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter is just the last region of planetary
formation in the inner solar system. [The Kuiper belt in the outer solar
system is another such region, and it probably contains planets--perhaps
very large ones--as well as rings of  dust, comets, and asteroids.
Unfortunately, there isn't enough light in those regions for Earthbound
telescopes to see much. That's why the NASA mission which was just
cancelled (the so-called Pluto-Kuiper express) would likely have yielded up
a treasure trove of spectacular discoveries.]

--Mitchell Jones}***

Another solar system upset caused by Nibiru is the weird
>rotation of Uranus.

***{Yes, it would have taken an enormous impact to tilt the polar axis of
Uranus by that amount (about 98 degrees), but the likely impactor is a very
large comet, not a rogue planet. (Pluto and its moon Charon, as well as the
asteroid Chiron, in fact, may be former satellites of Uranus that were
thrown off by that impact.) If the impactor were a rogue planet with an
orbital period of 3600 years, then in 4.5 billion years it would have made
1,250,000 disruptive passes into the inner solar system, and the observed
regularities that astronomers see today would be rather hard to imagine.
--MJ}***

>>does not in fact achieve the goal
>>of explaining how large comets can exist in a universe where there are no
>>small comets.
>>
>>So, to address your objection directly, why don't small comets have tails
>>that render them visible as they approach Earth? The answer: they probably
>>did, millions or billions of years ago, when they first passed into the
>>inner solar system. However, with each pass into the inner solar system, a
>>comet loses some of its more volatile components, due to the process of
>>degassing that produces a tail. Those components are carried away by the
>>solar wind. Result: the tail of a comet becomes less prominent with each
>>pass and, after its volatile components have been lost, it ceases to have a
>>tail and thereafter passes invisibly through the inner solar system.
>
>In the inner solar system, water is also volatile, particularly if the
>surface of the comet is black, so small water based comets should have
>tails.
>IOW no tail, no water, no comet.

***{Nope: a small comet would be rotating, like every other orbiting body
in the solar system. Result: you would have to average the temperatures on
the light and dark sides, to determine whether ice could exist at Earth's
orbit. On Luna, for example, temperatures in the light are about 383 K,
while those in the dark are about 93 K, and the average is about 238 K, or
about -35 C. The moon, of course, does not rotate fast enough for the
temperatures to average out, and so water volatilizes in areas where the
light falls during the day, and ice accumulates in areas of perpetual
shadow. On a rapidly rotating small comet, however, the average temperature
would be well below the freezing point of water, and there would be no
tail, hence no ongoing water loss. However, the other volatiles that are
normally present in a large comet would be long gone in a small comet:
methane boils at 112 K; carbon dioxide boils at 195 K; and ammonia boils at
240 K. Result: all of them would have boiled off, over the millions of
years, as the small comets repeatedly passed through the inner solar
system, leaving only the water ice. This process would also have eliminated
the slowly rotating small comets and those that passed too close to the
sun, but a subset of small comets with perihelia outside the orbit of Venus
would remain, and is sufficient to explain the dark spots on the dayglow
images. (Interestingly, since there would be lots of Mars crossing small
comets with perihelia outside the orbit of the Earth, using the Earth-based
infall numbers to estimate the water accumulation rate on Mars will be
*conservative*--which means: the actual water accumulation rate on Mars
will be greater than such an estimate.)  --MJ}***

>[snip]
>>>Nothing I have said earlier implies that there need be any direct
>>>temporal or spatial association with sprites. They could simply be the
>>>mechanism responsible for transporting mass to the ionosphere. When and
>>>where it comes down again, could well be totally unrelated.
>>
>>***{Are you saying that the sprites transport UV absorbing materials into
>>the stratosphere above thunderstorms, that the material in question somehow
>>coheres together while drifting around in the ionosphere, and only absorbs
>>UV when in the vicinity of meteor impacts? If so, what mechanism would
>>produce such an effect? --MJ}***
>>
>
>Ok, it's ridiculous. I'll drop this one.
>[snip]
>>>meteor activity is responsible for seeding the atmosphere with the
>>>chemicals required for the polarising effect.
>>
>>***{The chemicals required, based on the spectroscopic evidence, are
>>roughly 100 tons of water.
>
>This assumes it's own result. The spectroscopic evidence is only that at
>the frequencies measured, spots appeared. Yes, water absorbtion could be
>the cause, but so could polarisation related black spots.

***{Polarizers work because they are solid, and thus the magnetic flux
lines within them are frozen into fixed configurations that pass photons
having some orientations, and absorb those having other orientations. But
the notion of spots in the ionosphere--a gas--maintaining consistent
internal flux orientations and, thus, acting as polarizers, makes no sense.
Can you cite an example of a gas that acts as a polarizer, in the absence
of a powerful externally applied magnetic field? --MJ}***

>>(The spots of missing dayglow occur on the
>>absorption frequencies of water.)
>
>Not surprising, since water absorbs at almost all frequencies.
>(IOW the "match" that would appear to uniquely identify water, is in
>fact not a unique identification at all). There are also many other
>substances with broad UV absorbtion spectra.

***{There aren't any that I know of that could be transported to selected,
25 km radius spots in the ionosphere, except water carried in by small
comets. Can you suggest an alternative substance with the required
absorption characteristics, and an alternative transport mechanism? --MJ}***

>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
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Subject: RE: Peltier madness
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:26:58 -0400
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Scott,

--

 Jed Rothwell wrote:


> > This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing cannot be
due
>>> > to heat FLOW.
>>>
>>>Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
>>>over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.
>>
>>I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change
>>(i.e. force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the
>>heat flow rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta
>>exponentially.
>
>It seems to me that this issue, along with many others, can be resolved
>easily by substituting a joule heater with about the same mass. That
>should be a high priority, in my opinion. A blank experiment is essential.

Scott Little wrote:

hmmmm.  I've been thinking Nick should run a resistor instead of the
Peltier device also lately...but for a completely different reason.  If his
latest hypothesis about heat flow has any merit, he should be able to see
some sign of the effect just by using a properly configured heat
SOURCE...instead of a heat PUMP.


****If you go to http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm you will see that
several
years ago I placed a heat source 6.5 cm above an aluminum disc and got a ~9
mg
or a ~0.009 N drop in weight after 450 seconds.

Then I used the same heat source (3000 W)above a convex-down aluminum
colander
of the same area as the aluminum disc. The heat source was as close to the
focal point of the colander or hemisphere as I could get. This was about 9
cm
from the bottom of the colander.  After 450 seconds of illumination I
observed
a ~0.029 N or a ~30 mg decrease in weight.

I interpret these two tests as indicating that a curved shape like a
hemisphere
is preferable to a flat shape like a disc if one is interested the greatest
amount
of weight change.

You should also note that the least amount of weight change occurred with
the run
where the same heat source was ~1.5 cm above the top of a convex-up
colander. After
450 seconds a ~0.006 or a ~0.6 mg weight decrease was observed. In this
configuration
if the hot air balloon effect was significantly at play, one would expect
the weight
change to be greater or just as good as with the convex-down configuration.

Thank you for telling me where I could get copper foil.

I just received from McMaster-Carr twenty-four 6" X 12"  0.0028" Cu sheets.

Peter Fred


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 12:26:25 2001
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From: Scott Little <little earthtech.org>
Subject: RE: Peltier madness
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At 02:26 PM 4/16/01 -0400, Peter Fred wrote:

>****If you go to http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm you will see that
>several years ago......
>.....or a ~0.009 N drop in weight after 450 seconds.
>..... a ~30 mg decrease in weight.
>..... a ~0.6 mg weight decrease was observed.

Peter, forgive me for not studying your website.  Have you ever observed a 
weight INCREASE in these experiments?


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 12:48:53 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 10:26 AM 4/16/1, Scott Little wrote:

[snip]
>John Winteflood's hot-air balloon idea is good...except that I can't see
>how it could function as a cold-air balloon for weight gain.  True the
>Peltier devices do make one side cold but it's only cold briefly under
>these conditions...then everything gets hotter than ambient.
[snip]

I've been very busy and/or out of town, so am having difficulty catching
up.  However, from a superficial consideration of John Winterflood's idea,
I'd say he is right on target.  If one side of the Peltier is in contact
with an air chamber (plenum) and the other side is in contact with a solid
high specific mass (say copper), then the solid mass will not expand or
contract as much as the gas does initially, even though it is taking a
significant heat flow at the Peltier boundary.  Eventually the heat flow
must work its way through the solid mass and then the temperature of the
enclosed gas will migrate back toward its starting point, and or simply
increase, due to the Peltier inefficiency and associated net heat
production.  This interpretation matches the null result that was obtained
using Scott's copper jacket.  Using thin layers of copper, as Nick did in
one variation, will distribute the heat to gas trapped between the layers,
thus produces a very pronounced, though momentary, bouyancy effect.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 16:53:44 2001
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From: Alan Schneider <alansch zip.com.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:47:43 +1000
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On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:26:40 -0500, Scott Little <little earthtech.org> wrote:

>hmmmm.  I've been thinking Nick should run a resistor instead of the 
>Peltier device also lately...but for a completely different reason.  If his 
>latest hypothesis about heat flow has any merit, he should be able to see 
>some sign of the effect just by using a properly configured heat 
>SOURCE...instead of a heat PUMP.

I seem to vaguely recall Nick saying on Freenrg-l a month or so back
that he had substituted an appropriate resistor as part of his 
artifact removal regime, with totally null effects. (This was before
he shifted the discussion to Vortex-l.)

...

from 21 Feb 2001...
>Back at you and ahead of you.  As mentioned in my report, I did try
>substituting a power resistor for the Peltier, to isolate artifacts due to
>geomagnetic or ambient magnetic torque.  No effect.  See also Scott's brief
>report on Vortex - he pretty well replicated the aspects of the effect, as
>well as the resistor "dummy" negative result.

Cheers,
Alan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 17:35:11 2001
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Subject: RE: Peltier madness
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This is one unusual aspect of Peltiers that throws a curve:
 they actually generate quite a bit of heat.
When I repaired our Peltier-chilled water cooler,
 I noticed that the Peltier is not a simple
 'one-side hot, one-side cold' device.
It generates heat as it works.
This means you can't simply 'close the loop'
 on a Peltier device. That excess heat needs to go somewhere else.

On to another thought.
 G = 6.67E-11 m^3/Kg/S^2 which means:
for each Kg of matter, an minute amount of space is consumed each second.
This means space is continually being devoured by matter.
(Where does all the space come from ? ZPE)
In order to oppose this, you need to create space.
If we consider chemical potential energy, such as dynamite,
 we have a mass which will create space when the chemicals
 are given the right stimulus.
Almost any process involving the creation of heat is
 a process which creates space, hence the overheated Peltier
 generating what appears to be a force.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org]
> Sent: 2001 April 16, Monday 22:27
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-L@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Peltier madness
>
>
> At 10:43 AM 4/16/01 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>
> > > This slow response suggests that the effect you are observing
> cannot be due
> >>> > to heat FLOW.
> >>>
> >>>Sounds contractictory Scott. The heat flow is maximum
> >>>over the first eight seconds then tapers off as does the force/thrust.
> >>
> >>I understood Nick to say that it took 8 seconds for the weight change
> >>(i.e. force) to reach maximum.  That's essentially the inverse of the
> >>heat flow rate, which starts off at a maximum and decays away sorta
> >>exponentially.
> >
> >It seems to me that this issue, along with many others, can be resolved
> >easily by substituting a joule heater with about the same mass. That
> >should be a high priority, in my opinion. A blank experiment is
> essential.
>
> hmmmm.  I've been thinking Nick should run a resistor instead of the
> Peltier device also lately...but for a completely different
> reason.  If his
> latest hypothesis about heat flow has any merit, he should be able to see
> some sign of the effect just by using a properly configured heat
> SOURCE...instead of a heat PUMP.
>
> John Winteflood's hot-air balloon idea is good...except that I can't see
> how it could function as a cold-air balloon for weight gain.  True the
> Peltier devices do make one side cold but it's only cold briefly under
> these conditions...then everything gets hotter than ambient.
>
>
>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 19:13:39 2001
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Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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Alan;

Yes, as written up in my first disclosure, I did substitute a power resistor
for the peltier / envelope.  However, this was to basically ferret out any
artifact due to magnetic torque from current flowing through the lead in
wires.  The power resistor DID get warm, and no noticeable weight change was
noted.  However, to fit it more into the current context, I want to re-do
that run, with a much hotter resistor potted to a piece of copper foil.

The thread of thought here is good - and until I get the little turkey moved
into the bell jar for a vacuum test, there could be a lot learned.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Schneider" <alansch zip.com.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Peltier madness



> I seem to vaguely recall Nick saying on Freenrg-l a month or so back
> that he had substituted an appropriate resistor as part of his
> artifact removal regime, with totally null effects. (This was before
> he shifted the discussion to Vortex-l.)


> from 21 Feb 2001...
> >Back at you and ahead of you.  As mentioned in my report, I did try
> >substituting a power resistor for the Peltier, to isolate artifacts due
to
> >geomagnetic or ambient magnetic torque.  No effect.  See also Scott's
brief
> >report on Vortex - he pretty well replicated the aspects of the effect,
as
> >well as the resistor "dummy" negative result.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 19:27:06 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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A simplified version of the whole matter.

If you believe in "God" or "Gods"  Then there can never be a whole truth 
because that truth is held by these Deities continually beyond our human 
understanding.  If you believe there is no "God" or are no "Gods" then 
there can never be a whole truth because the vastness of the universe holds 
secrets that are beyond our human understanding.  In the matter of the 
great plan.  There ether is none or the complexities are beyond our 
understanding.

I believe you as well as many members of this list follow this plan to be 
human.  What makes you what you are is the actions that you take and 
decisions that you make every second of every day for as long as you exist 
as a human.   Truth and integrity in the hear and now is what I choose for 
myself.  (although there are times that I do not live up to my own 
expectations)

The theory of continuity of mind is no they at all.  In order to be a 
theory is must be proved which as humans we will never be able to do for 
the reasons cited previously.  I had hoped that the statement I provided 
was an understandable simplification of those beliefs.

Chears


At 12:55 AM 4/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 12:53 AM 4/14/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
> >>deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
> >>Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
> >
> >The underlying truth of all things is that there is no underlying truth of
> >all things
>
>***{I'm not sure what you mean by "underlying truth of all things," so I
>find the above hard to evaluate. If you refer to conceptual systems such as
>the supposed "unified field theory," then I completely agree: there will
>never be a final understanding of physics, because there are no elementary
>particles. All particles are aggregations of lesser particles: the parts
>have parts, ad infinitum. Result: a further advancement in physical
>understanding will always be possible to those who succeed in learning the
>properties of the parts of which the latest supposed "elementary particles"
>are composed. --MJ}***
>
>and the grand plan of "The Gods" is that there never was any
> >grand plan.
>
>***{Yup, because there were no "gods," and there is no "God." :-) --MJ}***
>
>What matters is what you do with every moment of life that you
> >have. This is what determines what you become.
>
>***{That is a plausible general statement, but the truth depends on the
>specifics of what you have in mind.
>
>In my view, a person's understandings of the world determine the tendencies
>by which he responds to stimuli, and thus define the essence of what he is
>at a given moment. Thus the most important task in life is to apply reason
>to the data of one's experiences, and to maximize the rate of improvement
>in one's understandings of the world. It is this activity that determines
>what we become. And it is what we have become, at the end of our lives,
>that determines the degree of advancement of the genetic material which
>will be required to produce an infant with the understandings we had at the
>times of our deaths.
>
>I would also note that the most important of these understandings relate to
>the values of such things as freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning,
>and science. This is true because negative attitudes toward such things
>arise out of misunderstandings that prevail in primitive societies, while
>positive attitudes toward them arise out of understandings prevalent in
>advanced societies. This is true because primitive societies cull out those
>who value freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning, and science, with
>the result that the gene pools in such societies do not produce very many
>infants who are inclined to value such things. Thus the person who has less
>understanding of freedom, intellectual independence, reasoning, and science
>when he leaves this life than he when he came into it will probably begin
>his next life in a more primitive society than the one he lived in on
>Earth, in the body of a child of a species less intelligent than man. On
>the other hand, a person who has improved his understandings of such
>matters in the course of his life will be much more likely to begin his
>next life in a more advanced society, in the body of a child of a more
>intelligent species than man.
>
>Bottom line: the next life will provide the reward or punishment,
>respectively, for the understandings or misunderstandings that we develop
>while living in the world of the present. (And, of course, the same thing
>can be said of the next life, and the life after that, and so on.)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >_________________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
>exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
>the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
>candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
>result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
>followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 20:56:28 2001
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: StarTrek Teansporter (was: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:34:26 +0700
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This brings up two interesting points:
If we had <fantasy door> such a magnificent
 machine as depicted as the StarTrek
 Transporter [beam me up, Scotty],
 the replicated being would necessarily need
 to be perfect in every detail - no misplaced
 protons, etc. But additional to this
 would be the problem of instantaneous disorientation
 which would accompany the sudden change in locale.
The new body couldn't really assimilate all the
 old conciousness, as parts of our conciousness are
 keyed to our environment.
People would arrive forgetting bits and pieces
 of what they knew before the process.
Imagine being transported somewhere, forgetting
 during transit why you were going...

The other problem is: what happens to the original
 body? Does this need to be destroyed in order to
 to affect the transfer of conciousness? Or is the process
 a case of particle by particle relocation ?
Wonder how that would feel,
 having your body peeled off
 incrementally over any period
 lasting more than a few microseconds.

Just some sicko observations...

{Mitchell: The piece is a keeper,
 describing in clear terms what some philosophies
 vaguely hold without being able to justify.}

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
> Sent: 2001 April 14, Saturday 12:54
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
>
>
> Given the advanced age of many of the participants in this group, the
> deaths of Chris Tinsley and David Dennard, the health problems of Horace
> Heffner and Fred Sparber, and the likely unmentioned difficulties of
> others, I am now going to plunge into a topic that some may find
> unsettling, but which is very relevant to this group--to wit: what does
> reason have to say about the meaning of life?
>
> To begin, I ask that you all think back to the years before you came into
> the world. During those times you had no physical existence, despite the
> fact that the world, and likely the rest of the universe as well, was
> teeming with life. Every day, untold multitudes of new creatures were
> coming into existence and beginning their lives. Birds and insects and
> spiders and fish and crabs were hatching, and mammalian mothers--monkeys
> and wolves and foxes and mice and tigers and humans and cattle and on and
> on--were giving birth, on this world and on untold billions of others, in
> this galaxy and elsewhere, in a universe where you did not exist. That
> means you did not see through any of those eyes, or hear through any of
> those ears, or feel with any of that skin, or taste with those mouths, or
> experience the images in those streams of consciousness.
>
> The question is: why not?
>
> The answer, I submit, is obvious: none of those teeming billions of babies
> had the characteristics that were required in order to be you.
> Each of them
> was a material entity whose development was set in motion and
> controlled by
> genetic material, and in each of those cases, the entity that was produced
> did not have the traits which were required to enable you to see through
> its eyes, hear through its ears, etc.
>
> But then, on a backwater planet called Earth, in an obscure corner of a
> universe teeming with life, there occurred a union of sperm and egg which
> brought your state of nonexistence to an end. That union triggered a
> sequence of development which produced the traits that were required for a
> baby to be you, and so you appeared. This creature was different from all
> the others: you saw through its eyes, heard through its ears,
> felt with its
> skin, and you experienced directly the images in its mind.
>
> The question is: what was the nature of the characteristics which
> qualified
> that creature to be you?
>
> Well, they didn't have to do with your body: it is clear from experience
> that we can lose chunks of our bodies in the course of our lives and still
> be who we are. Thus the characteristics that define the essence of what we
> are must have to do with our minds. However, it is also clear that those
> traits do not have to do with our conscious knowledge, since our conscious
> knowledge changes in large and discontinuous chunks throughout our lives,
> as we add some pieces of information and forget others, while still
> remaining who we are. Therefore, the traits that define what we are,
> rendering us unique individuals, must dwell in the non-conscious parts of
> our minds.
>
> But what can they be?
>
> In my view, it is our understandings concerning the nature of the world
> that render each of us unique. We come into the world with a vast store of
> genetically encoded understanding that, despite its source in genetics,
> manifests itself to some specific and unique degree in each specific
> individual. For example, baby mice come into the world without the
> understanding that the noises made by adults of their species are the
> symbols of a complex language. Baby humans, on the other hand, treat those
> sounds as a mystery to be solved, and because of that innate
> understanding,
> they proceed to figure out what the sounds mean, and thus teach themselves
> to speak. Note, however, that there is uniqueness in the manifestation of
> such understanding: some children become much more intensely preoccupied
> with puzzling out the mystery of speech than others, and, as a
> consequence,
> they master the skill more rapidly than their peers. Thus the
> average child
> begins to use sentences at about the age of two, whereas the extremely
> verbal child will do so before the end of his first year, and the child
> whose focus is elsewhere may not speak in sentences until he is four or
> five. And there are many other examples that imply the existence of
> genetically encoded understanding: some children are, from the beginning,
> inclined to be passive receptacles into which authority figures can place
> whatever beliefs they wish, while others are inclined to analyze
> input from
> others, apply criticism, and only accept that which passes their tests.
> Still other children are inclined, virtually from birth, to try to get
> their way by means of violence, or to lie or to steal, or to express their
> disapproval by sulking, etc. Such behavior patterns, again, arise so early
> in life that it is virtually inconceivable that they could be due to
> environment. It is far more likely, in my view, that they arise due to the
> differing nuances of the genetically encoded understanding that we bring
> with us into the world, and which defines who we are.
>
> As we live our lives, of course, we interact with our environment, receive
> new information, process it, and alter the patterns that are laid down in
> the non-conscious parts of our minds: our understanding changes, and the
> patterns by which we respond to stimuli change as well. What that means is
> that the process of living life causes us to become different people than
> we were: we learn and grow (or we shrink), but the changes take place
> gradually and in accordance with the principle of physical continuity
> (which we have extensively discussed here in the past), and,
> because of the
> imperceptible incrementalism of the changes, we continue to see
> through our
> eyes, feel with our skin, hear with our ears, etc., despite the gradual
> alteration of the understandings that defined who we were when first we
> came into the world. Result: when, at the end of our lives, we
> die, we pass
> into nonexistence with different understandings than those we had when we
> entered the world.
>
> And after we die, we once again have no physical existence in the
> universe.
> Once again, in an immense universe teeming with life, in which untold
> billions of infants, of multitudinous species, spread throughout vast
> numbers of distant galaxies, are beginning new lives, we see through no
> eyes, hear through no ears, feel with no skin, etc. Once again,
> none of the
> squeaking, howling, clicking, screaming, buzzing, cheeping, croaking,
> squawking multitudes of new life is us: they do not exhibit, as they enter
> the world, the characteristics that are required.
>
> But it is a mind-bogglingly big universe, and within its vast expanses of
> space and time anything that can happen eventually will happen. That means
> a day will come after your death when another infant is born who carries
> with him the unique characteristics that make him you. And when that day
> comes, you will live again. Note, however, that the characteristics
> necessary to be you have been modified: you did not possess the same
> understanding of the world when you died as when you were born. Result: in
> order to qualify as you this time around, a child will have to possess,
> when he begins his life, the understanding, but not the conscious
> knowledge, that you possessed when you died. That means if you
> moved upward
> in your life, if you grew in terms of your understanding of the
> world, then
> the genetic material of a species more advanced than humans will be
> necessary, in order to produce an infant that can qualify as you. And if
> you slid downhill, if you had a weaker comprehension of the nature of the
> world when you died than when you were born, then the genetic
> material of a
> species less advanced than humans may be necessary to capture the essence
> of what you are.
>
> The implication: if at the end of your life you possess a much deeper
> understanding of the world, of freedom, and of the value of intellectual
> independence than you had when you began, then your next life is likely to
> take place as a member of a species more mentally advanced than humans, in
> a prosperous society where freedom and intellectual independence
> are valued
> and protected. And if, at the end of your life, you hated freedom and
> intellectual independence, and understood less of the world than when you
> began, then your next life is likely to take place as a member of
> a species
> less mentally advanced than humans, in a world that is even more brutal,
> oppressive, and impoverished than Earth.
>
> As for the subjective time between death and the beginning of the next
> life, it is zero. Even if a hundred billion years passes before a new life
> has the characteristics necessary to be you, you will not notice, because
> you will have no physical existence during that interval. To you, it will
> seem as if no time elapsed at all. Death is, from this point of view,
> merely an episode of total amnesia: you lose your conscious
> knowledge while
> retaining the full measure of your understanding, and your stream of
> consciousness is unbroken. This is the principle of continuity of mind.
>
> Bottom line: each mind is immortal. Each life ends in death, but each
> death, with the passage of sufficient time, begets a new life.
> The sequence
> is unending, but the direction--upward or downward--is under your control.
>
> The moral of the story: be very, very careful what you become.
>
> --Mitchell Jones
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
> exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves
> largesse from
> the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always
> votes for the
> candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
> result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
> followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 23:19:36 2001
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:21:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Peltier madness
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At 10:26 AM 4/16/1, Scott Little wrote:

[snip]
>John Winteflood's hot-air balloon idea is good...except that I can't see
>how it could function as a cold-air balloon for weight gain.  True the
>Peltier devices do make one side cold but it's only cold briefly under
>these conditions...then everything gets hotter than ambient.
[snip]

I've been very busy and/or out of town, so am having difficulty catching
up.  However, from a superficial consideration of John Winterflood's idea,
I'd say he is right on target.

If one side of the Peltier is in contact with an air chamber (plenum) and
the other side is in contact with a solid high specific mass (say copper),
then the solid mass will not expand or contract as much as the gas does
initially, even though it is taking a significant heat flow at the Peltier
boundary.  If the cold side is in contact with the plenum then the density
of the gass will increase, reducing bouyancy, thus showing an apparent
weight gain.  Regardless of which side is toward the plenum, eventually the
heat flow must work its way through the solid mass and then the temperature
of the enclosed gas will migrate back toward its starting point, and/or
simply increase, due to the Peltier inefficiency and associated net heat
production.  This interpretation matches the null result that was obtained
using Scott's copper jacket.  Using thin layers of copper, as Nick did in
one variation, will distribute the heat to gas trapped between the layers,
thus produces a very pronounced, though momentary, bouyancy effect.

Note that using a resistor in place of the Peltier is no good as a control
unless the reisitor is wrapped with insulation so as to create the plenum.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 00:47:14 2001
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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:14:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: StarTrek Teansporter (was: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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>This brings up two interesting points:
>If we had <fantasy door> such a magnificent
> machine as depicted as the StarTrek
> Transporter [beam me up, Scotty],
> the replicated being would necessarily need
> to be perfect in every detail - no misplaced
> protons, etc.

***{It depends on what traits define the essence of a person. If, as I
believe, those traits are simply the understandings that are stored in the
person's mind, then only the specific brain structures which encoded those
understandings would need to be replicated. The rest of the brain could be
different--for example, larger and more capable, or perhaps with different
(or even without) conscious memories--and the body could be vastly
different as well. (Of course, in a transporter, the customer would be
unhappy if he came out at the other end with amnesia, or if he started as a
human and ended as a Klingon, etc. :-) --MJ}***

But additional to this
> would be the problem of instantaneous disorientation
> which would accompany the sudden change in locale.
>The new body couldn't really assimilate all the
> old conciousness, as parts of our conciousness are
> keyed to our environment.
>People would arrive forgetting bits and pieces
> of what they knew before the process.
>Imagine being transported somewhere, forgetting
> during transit why you were going...
>
>The other problem is: what happens to the original
> body? Does this need to be destroyed in order to
> to affect the transfer of conciousness?

***{Yes, that would clearly be the case. If it were not destroyed, the
stream of consciousness of the original individual would not be
interrupted. In that case, the fellow who stepped out of the other end
would receive the consciousness of someone who was already dead, perhaps
leaping across billions of years of time, from another galaxy and from an
intelligent species other than man. If that happened, he wouldn't know it,
because he would have the replicated memories of the person who had been
attempting to use the transporter when it malfunctioned, and he would
behave like a virtual twin of the original user. (After all, his
consciousness would have been selected because his non-conscious
understandings were a close match to those in the brain of the person who
was replicated.)

And here is a serious difficulty: what if consciousness transfers operate
by means of a first in, first out queue? In that case, the guy who had been
waiting for billions of years would get the replicated body, and the guy
who stepped into the "transporter" would, in fact, have committed suicide:
instead of stepping out at the other end of the transporter beam, he would
simply become the last guy who stepped into the queue. Result: he might
have to wait a billion years before a body with the right characteristics
became available to him. (Of course, he would be dead, and so he would not
notice the passage of time.)

Bottom line: "Beam me up, Scotty!" may be just a way of saying "Kill me,
Scotty!" :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

Or is the process
> a case of particle by particle relocation ?
>Wonder how that would feel,
> having your body peeled off
> incrementally over any period
> lasting more than a few microseconds.
>
>Just some sicko observations...
>
>{Mitchell: The piece is a keeper,
> describing in clear terms what some philosophies
> vaguely hold without being able to justify.}

***{Thanks. The problem is that such subject matter is virtually the
exclusive province of religion--which means: thought processes in this area
tend to be corrupted by the desire to fit in with the preexisting doctrine
of a group, and, by that means, get driven in irrational directions. My own
aversion to socially expedient thinking was so powerful that I avoided such
speculations for literally decades. As a consequence, I believed death was
the end of everything until, a couple of years ago, I somehow got past the
religious crapola and began to analyze the question in terms of pure
reason. Once I did that, I quickly noticed that I had already been dead: I
had no existence in the physical world in the years immediately prior to my
birth. Nevertheless, despite that, I am living now. The implication: life
after death is not a mystical speculation, but a proven scientific fact.
Once that rather thunderous insight had penetrated into my atheistic brain,
the possibility of once again entering into a state of physical
nonexistence suddenly ceased to be quite so threatening as it had been in
the past. In spite of that, however, I analyzed the issue for fully two
years before I said anything publicly about it. The reason: despite the
seeming strength of the reasoning, old habits die hard, and I still tended
to see such claims as arrant crackpottery of the first order. Indeed, even
now I can't quite shake the notion that I've overlooked something--that I
may, perhaps, be thinking selectively in order to believe what I want to
believe. Thus I would be very pleased if someone who strongly disagrees
with the reasoning--there must be somebody like that in this group!--would
attack it as tenaciously as Robin has been attacking the small comet
theory. After all, by my philosophy, no belief about anything complicated
should be trusted until it has come under heavy fire and remained standing.
--MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

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Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind
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***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delayed response. As usual, your comments were
rather complex, and, also as usual, there are some points of disagreement
between us. Let us therefore battle our way toward the light! Enjoy.
--MJ}***

>Mitchell, this is a very interesting and insightful essay on a subject we
>all have to address at some time in our lives.  While I do not have such a
>polished description of our life history, I suggest a number of
>observations must be included in any description.  Indeed, these
>observations would suggest a number of possibilities you have missed.  I
>will list a few of these phenomenon for discussion.  Of course, it is
>always possible to reject any or all of them in the same manner as much
>about normal life is rejected to suit our limited worldview.
>
>1. Reincarnation :  This phenomenon has been studied at great length both
>by scientific means as well as by universal experience over many
>millennia. This evidence shows that some, if not all, people existed in
>other bodies in the past.

***{I have encountered some of those claims over the years, and have never
found any of them to be plausible. The reasons are twofold:

(1) Most such reports involve people claiming to have known, or to have
been, historically famous personages--a Prince of Egypt, or Napoleon, or
Cleopatra, etc. Very few reports of this sort involve claims that the
person was a nobody, or that he performed pedestrian activities of the sort
that are not described in history books or archaeology texts. Instead, they
hew to the path of the known, and they tend to elevate the status of the
person doing the reporting. That, to me, is virtual proof that most, and
perhaps all, of these types of reports are bogus. After all, the vast
majority of people in the past lived mundane lives far from the historical
stage. Thus if these reports were accurate, most would describe such lives.
However, they do not.

(2) More importantly, such reports defy causality. No mechanism is proposed
by which information about a life thousands of years ago would be
transported through space and time, and would implant itself in the brain
of a person living today. It is reasonable to suppose that natural
selection would deliver to the young of each species the innate
understandings that they need to get a proper start to their lives--that,
for example, the young of a species which is crucially dependent on the use
of language would be born with "natural talent" (a.k.a. innate
understanding) that would facilitate such learning, or that a species
centrally dependent upon the use of mathematics would produce young who
were "gifted" in regards to such learning. However, there is no imaginable
purpose that would be served by bringing a child into the world bearing
memories of a culture long dead, where mores and the technological context
were radically different from that of the world in which the child must now
live and function. Even worse: the notion that a genetic mechanism might
somehow cause such memories to be laid down in the brain of a new child,
after skipping across vast distances of space and time, simply defies
understanding.

Bottom line: it was such claims that repelled me from this subject for
decades, and I have no doubt that they act as a barrier to many others as
well.

--Mitchell Jones}*** =20

>  If accepted, the process would suggest that after death we each occupy
>another form that has the power to re-enter the physical form.

***{It depends on what you mean. If "another form" simply means not having
a form--i.e., having no physical existence (a.k.a, being dead as a mackerel
:-)--then I don't have a big problem with it. However, if it means dead
people occupy some alternative universe, higher dimension, etc., well, that
just strikes me as silliness. In my view, a dead person does not
exist--i.e., does not exist physically. However, the fact that this
universe produced him once--that he crossed the categorical boundary from
nonexistence to existence once--is proof that it is capable of producing
him again. Thus a dead person exists *as a potentiality*. As such, he is no
different than a painting which has not yet been created, or a keg of
gunpowder that has not yet been manufactured, or a bloom on a rose bush the
seed of which has not yet been planted. Potentialities are real, yet they
have no physical form. It is in this sense, and in this sense only, that
the dead exist; and the world in which they exist is the same as the world
of the living. --MJ}***

>2. The psi phenomenon:  This collection of effects and mechanisms has been
>experienced by individuals to a greater or lesser degree throughout
>history.  Recently, investigations based on scientific methods have
>revealed a universal characteristic to the effects.  If accepted, they
>suggest the existence of a reality much different from the one we normally
>experience.

***{I thought this was where you were headed. In my view, there is only one
reality: the infinite mechanical universe in which we all live. The dead
exist here as potentialities, while the living exist here as actualities.
We are all here because there isn't anywhere else to go: the universe, by
definition, is the totality of that which is. --MJ}***

>3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:  Sai Baba is an Avatar now living in India who
>has powers that defy explanation.  These are the same powers that have
>been attributed to Christ and believed to be real by many people. If
>believed, these powers show the existence of a reality parallel to but
>invisible to the one we normally experience.  Apparently, matter can be
>easily transported between these two realities by the entities in the
>other reality.  This is only one of the many strange interactions that
>appear to be possible.

***{This sounds like a violation of the principle of physical continuity to
me. If so, it leads to the collapse of the entire structure of human
knowledge, for reasons that we have extensively discussed here in the past.
The view of life after death that I have presented, on the other hand, does
*not* require a violation of physical continuity, because while
potentialities exist in the physical world, they do not have physical form,
and the connections they mediate between the end of one life and the
beginning of another are not physical. --MJ}***

>These three effects suggest the existence of a complex reality that is
>largely invisible.  Of course, religions preach this fact and many people
>accept this idea.

***{Which, as noted above, is the central obstacle facing any
intellectually honest individual who attempts to make sense out of such
matters. As soon as religion comes into a discussion, social pressure
starts to be applied--which means: there is a threat, stated or implied, of
rejection if one's thoughts deviate from the path dictated by doctrine.
Result: the entire area is repellent to any person who honestly seeks after
the truth, and such people, by default, tend to gravitate toward the notion
that death is a final end of consciousness--a "big sleep," as it were. This
is a tragedy that will only be rectified when men of reason begin to boldly
turn their attention to such issues, and to clean up the mess that religion
has made of them. --MJ}***

>However, those of us who are of a scientific bent want evidence. I suggest
>the three observations listed above are such evidence - evidence that does
>not have to be accepted on faith.

***{Perhaps. I have stated my misgivings about some of your statements, and
I await your comments. At present, we appear to be far from agreement about
these matters, though perhaps not so far from one another as we are from
others in this group. :-) --MJ}***

>  Naturally, the possibility of such evidence needs to be accepted in
>order for a person to be willing to take a look.  The more effort taken to
>understand these phenomenon, the more real they become.   Not to labor the
>point, but this is =93cold fusion effect=94 all over again.  The only issue=
 is
>whether a person has the courage and curiosity to explore that which is
>threatening to his present views.

***{On that point we are in complete agreement. --MJ}***

>Ed Storms
________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: The Principle of Continuity of
Mind</title></head><body>
<div>***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delayed response. As usual, your
comments were rather complex, and, also as usual, there are some
points of disagreement between us. Let us therefore battle our way
toward the light! Enjoy. --MJ}***</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>Mitchell, this is a very interesting and
insightful essay on a subject we all have to address at some time in
our lives.&nbsp; While I do not have such a polished description of
our life history, I suggest a number of observations must be included
in any description.&nbsp; Indeed, these observations would suggest a
number of possibilities you have missed.&nbsp; I will list a few of
these phenomenon for discussion.&nbsp; Of course, it is always
possible to reject any or all of them in the same manner as much
about normal life is rejected to suit our limited
worldview.</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite><br>
1. Reincarnation :&nbsp; This phenomenon has been studied at great
length both by scientific means as well as by universal experience
over many millennia. This evidence shows that some, if not all,
people existed in other bodies in the past.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{I have encountered some of those claims over the years, and
have never found any of them to be plausible. The reasons are
twofold:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(1) Most such reports involve people claiming to have known, or
to have been, historically famous personages--a Prince of Egypt, or
Napoleon, or Cleopatra, etc. Very few reports of this sort involve
claims that the person was a nobody, or that he performed pedestrian
activities of the sort that are not described in history books or
archaeology texts. Instead, they hew to the path of the known, and
they tend to elevate the status of the person doing the reporting.
That, to me, is virtual proof that most, and perhaps all, of these
types of reports are bogus. After all, the vast majority of people in
the past lived mundane lives far from the historical stage. Thus if
these reports were accurate, most would describe such lives. However,
they do not.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(2) More importantly, such reports defy causality. No mechanism
is proposed by which information about a life thousands of years ago
would be transported through space and time, and would implant itself
in the brain of a person living today. It is reasonable to suppose
that natural selection would deliver to the young of each species the
innate understandings that they need to get a proper start to their
lives--that, for example, the young of a species which is crucially
dependent on the use of language would be born with &quot;natural
talent&quot; (a.k.a. innate understanding) that would facilitate such
learning, or that a species centrally dependent upon the use of
mathematics would produce young who were &quot;gifted&quot; in
regards to such learning. However, there is no imaginable purpose
that would be served by bringing a child into the world bearing
memories of a culture long dead, where mores and the technological
context were radically different from that of the world in which the
child must now live and function. Even worse: the notion that a
genetic mechanism might somehow cause such memories to be laid down
in the brain of a new child, after skipping across vast distances of
space and time, simply defies understanding.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Bottom line: it was such claims that repelled me from this
subject for decades, and I have no doubt that they act as a barrier
to many others as well.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>--Mitchell Jones}***&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>&nbsp; If accepted, the process would
suggest that after death we each occupy another form that has the
power to re-enter the physical form.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{It depends on what you mean. If &quot;another form&quot;
simply means not having a form--i.e., having no physical existence
(a.k.a, being dead as a mackerel :-)--then I don't have a big problem
with it. However, if it means dead people occupy some alternative
universe, higher dimension, etc., well, that just strikes me as
silliness. In my view, a dead person does not exist--i.e., does not
exist physically. However, the fact that this universe produced him
once--that he crossed the categorical boundary from nonexistence to
existence once--is proof that it is capable of producing him again.
Thus a dead person exists *as a potentiality*. As such, he is no
different than a painting which has not yet been created, or a keg of
gunpowder that has not yet been manufactured, or a bloom on a rose
bush the seed of which has not yet been planted. Potentialities are
real, yet they have no physical form. It is in this sense, and in
this sense only, that the dead exist; and the world in which they
exist is the same as the world of the living. --MJ}***</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>2. The psi phenomenon:&nbsp; This
collection of effects and mechanisms has been experienced by
individuals to a greater or lesser degree throughout history.&nbsp;
Recently, investigations based on scientific methods have revealed a
universal characteristic to the effects.&nbsp; If accepted, they
suggest the existence of a reality much different from the one we
normally experience.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{I thought this was where you were headed. In my view, there
is only one reality: the infinite mechanical universe in which we all
live. The dead exist here as potentialities, while the living exist
here as actualities. We are all here because there isn't anywhere
else to go: the universe, by definition, is the totality of that
which is. --MJ}***</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:&nbsp; Sai
Baba is an Avatar now living in India who has powers that defy
explanation.&nbsp; These are the same powers that have been
attributed to Christ and believed to be real by many people. If
believed, these powers show the existence of a reality parallel to
but invisible to the one we normally experience.&nbsp; Apparently,
matter can be easily transported between these two realities by the
entities in the other reality.&nbsp; This is only one of the many
strange interactions that appear to be possible.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{This sounds like a violation of the principle of physical
continuity to me. If so, it leads to the collapse of the entire
structure of human knowledge, for reasons that we have extensively
discussed here in the past. The view of life after death that I have
presented, on the other hand, does *not* require a violation of
physical continuity, because while potentialities exist in the
physical world, they do not have physical form, and the connections
they mediate between the end of one life and the beginning of another
are not physical. --MJ}***</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>These three effects suggest the
existence of a complex reality that is largely invisible.&nbsp; Of
course, religions preach this fact and many people accept this
idea.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{Which, as noted above, is the central obstacle facing any
intellectually honest individual who attempts to make sense out of
such matters. As soon as religion comes into a discussion, social
pressure starts to be applied--which means: there is a threat, stated
or implied, of rejection if one's thoughts deviate from the path
dictated by doctrine. Result: the entire area is repellent to any
person who honestly seeks after the truth, and such people, by
default, tend to gravitate toward the notion that death is a final
end of consciousness--a &quot;big sleep,&quot; as it were. This is a
tragedy that will only be rectified when men of reason begin to
boldly turn their attention to such issues, and to clean up the mess
that religion has made of them. --MJ}***</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>However, those of us who are of a
scientific bent want evidence. I suggest the three observations
listed above are such evidence - evidence that does not have to be
accepted on faith.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{Perhaps. I have stated my misgivings about some of your
statements, and I await your comments. At present, we appear to be
far from agreement about these matters, though perhaps not so far
from one another as we are from others in this group. :-)
--MJ}***</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>&nbsp; Naturally, the <u>possibility</u>
of such evidence needs to be accepted in order for a person to be
willing to take a look.&nbsp; The more effort taken to understand
these phenomenon, the more real they become.&nbsp;&nbsp; Not to labor
the point, but this is =93cold fusion effect=94 all over again.&nbsp;
The only issue is whether a person has the courage and curiosity to
explore that which is threatening to his present views.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>***{On that point we are in complete agreement. --MJ}***</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>Ed Storms</blockquote>

<div>________________<br>
Quote of the month:<br>
<br>
&quot;A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It
can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote
themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on,
the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most
benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy
collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always followed by a
dictatorship.&quot; --Alexis de Tocqueville</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1224628963==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 02:03:52 2001
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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
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Subject: RE: Peltier madness
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From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org]



At 02:26 PM 4/16/01 -0400, Peter Fred wrote:

>****If you go to http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm you will see that
>several years ago......
>.....or a ~0.009 N drop in weight after 450 seconds.
>..... a ~30 mg decrease in weight.
>..... a ~0.6 mg weight decrease was observed.

Peter, forgive me for not studying your website.  Have you ever observed a 
weight INCREASE in these experiments?

****Yes, see the picture of the convex-up copper hemisphere on the index
of my website at http://pbfred.tripod.com/index.htm.  As is stated in my
paper at http://pbfred.tripod.com/thermal.pdf a 0.006 N or a 6 mg weight
increase was observed after 300 seconds of 2250 watts of illumination
from underneath.

As Nick as observed (see http://pbfred.tripod.com/peltier.htm#Nick )I have
never been unable to get an increase with an aluminum hemisphere with the 
same configuration.

If you look at the graph in the thermal.pdf paper
on the copper hemisphere you will see two or three pronounced spikes
occurring at the end of the run.  I interpret these spikes as an
indication as two forces competing with each other. One being the 
downward-pointing "gravitational thermal resistive" force and the
other the upward-pointing "hot air balloon effect" force. These spikes
suggest to me that because the aluminum hemisphere is lighter than
the copper hemisphere, the "hot air balloon effect" force obscures the 
"thermal resistive" force and an decrease in weight is observed with 
the convex-up configuration when a aluminum hemisphere is used.
However I have found as Nick has found that the decrease in weight is
less using the same power in the convex up configuration compared
to the convex-down configuration.

I like to also mention that with my second attempt with a Peltier 
device I also got an increase in weight.  It was not much
 -- four runs averaging 0.8 mg -- but definitely discernible over
noise.

There was only a ~5 degree difference between the hot side and the 
cold side.  The copper discs plus aluminum sheet were configured so that
they formed somewhat like a convex-up hemisphere.  The hot side 
was on top and the cold  side on the bottom just as Nick has 
observed with his flat pita shaped configuration when
as an increase in weight was noticed.

Peter Fred



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---
I found this the other day...

http://www.thegreatestchallenge.com/short-version.html
---

To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text.

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 03:59:13 2001
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The ambient temperature vibrations of atoms in a lattice are around 10^13 hz with an
amplitude of about 0.1 angstroms.

>From this, it seems logical that energy added as heat is going to increase the
frequency and amplitude of these vibrations and the quantized sound disturbance/s
(phonons)will propagate in the direction of heat flow until the material boundary is
reached. Reflection of the phonons from the boundary imparts a momentum of 2 mv to the
material, and subsequent destructive interference of the reflected phonons with other
phonons moving in the opposite direction should alow a net force/thrust of the
material.

An example of  of phonon-phonon and phonon-atom scattering phenomena is to hold a
marble and atop golf ball at waist height and release them so that they can fall from
waist height and strike the floor. This "many body" collision will give the marble
enough momentum to rise several feet above the initial release height.

So it is with phonon scattering, except that phonons, unlike rigid spheres can bounce
around picking up momentum annihilate one another when they collide.

Think about it, but, if you do the experiment wear safety goggles. The marble can put
an eye out.

Regards,   Frederick


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I see a few logical inconsistancies in his description of the device.

Most notably the "fresh smelling air" created by ozone...  Ozone doesn't 
smell fresh.

Also if this device works as described it is far to dangerous as it stands 
now because of the extreme voltage and ionizing capability.

Don't even expect me to go into the weight/mass confusion.

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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--------------52946D7388164B009FD82224
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delayed response. As usual, your
> comments were rather complex, and, also as usual, there
> are some points of disagreement between us. Let us
> therefore battle our way toward the light! Enjoy.
> --MJ}***
>
>> Mitchell, this is a very interesting and insightful
>> essay on a subject we all have to address at some time
>> in our lives.  While I do not have such a polished
>> description of our life history, I suggest a number of
>> observations must be included in any description.
>> Indeed, these observations would suggest a number of
>> possibilities you have missed.  I will list a few of
>> these phenomenon for discussion.  Of course, it is
>> always possible to reject any or all of them in the same
>> manner as much about normal life is rejected to suit our
>> limited worldview.
>
>>
>> 1. Reincarnation :  This phenomenon has been studied at
>> great length both by scientific means as well as by
>> universal experience over many millennia. This evidence
>> shows that some, if not all, people existed in other
>> bodies in the past.
>
>  ***{I have encountered some of those claims over the
> years, and have never found any of them to be plausible.
> The reasons are twofold: (1) Most such reports involve
> people claiming to have known, or to have been,
> historically famous personages--a Prince of Egypt, or
> Napoleon, or Cleopatra, etc. Very few reports of this sort
> involve claims that the person was a nobody, or that he
> performed pedestrian activities of the sort that are not
> described in history books or archaeology texts. Instead,
> they hew to the path of the known, and they tend to
> elevate the status of the person doing the reporting.
> That, to me, is virtual proof that most, and perhaps all,
> of these types of reports are bogus. After all, the vast
> majority of people in the past lived mundane lives far
> from the historical stage. Thus if these reports were
> accurate, most would describe such lives. However, they do
> not.
>
> ---I suggest you look up the work of Prof. Ian Stevenson
> (University of Virginia) (A short article can be found at
> "Unusual Play in Young Children Who Claim to Remember
> Previous Lives", J. Sci. Explor. 14 (2000) 557). Prof.
> Stevenson has spent many years investigating and published
> many books about such claims throughout the world.  His
> work is based mainly on interviewing children who have
> knowledge of a previous life time and this former life is
> known by people in the area, but could not have been known
> by the child. These are mundane lives lived very close in
> time so that the details can be verified.---
>
>   (2) More importantly, such reports defy causality. No
> mechanism is proposed by which information about a life
> thousands of years ago would be transported through space
> and time, and would implant itself in the brain of a
> person living today. It is reasonable to suppose that
> natural selection would deliver to the young of each
> species the innate understandings that they need to get a
> proper start to their lives--that, for example, the young
> of a species which is crucially dependent on the use of
> language would be born with "natural talent" (a.k.a.
> innate understanding) that would facilitate such learning,
> or that a species centrally dependent upon the use of
> mathematics would produce young who were "gifted" in
> regards to such learning. However, there is no imaginable
> purpose that would be served by bringing a child into the
> world bearing memories of a culture long dead, where mores
> and the technological context were radically different
> from that of the world in which the child must now live
> and function. Even worse: the notion that a genetic
> mechanism might somehow cause such memories to be laid
> down in the brain of a new child, after skipping across
> vast distances of space and time, simply defies
> understanding.
>
> ----Prof. Stevenson finds that many children remember
> their immediate previous life, but this memory gradually
> fades as they grow older.  I agree, ancient past lives are
> hard to verify and can be ignored.  However, this does not
> eliminate the possibility that the phenomenon is real.  As
> for the mechanism, just because we are too ignorant or
> too unimaginative to find a mechanism does not mean that
> one does not exist.  I can speculate that if the second
> reality exists and it contains some part of our
> personality and knowledge after we die, then this reality
> will have a mechanism to reinsert this knowledge into this
> reality as memory patterns in a new brain.  Perhaps more
> study will eventually show how this is done. ----- Bottom
> line: it was such claims that repelled me from this
> subject for decades, and I have no doubt that they act as
> a barrier to many others as well.
>
> --- That's too bad.  Emotion can be such a limit to
> knowledge. ---
>
>   --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>   If accepted, the process would suggest that after
>> death we each occupy another form that has the power to
>> re-enter the physical form.
>
>  ***{It depends on what you mean. If "another form" simply
> means not having a form--i.e., having no physical
> existence (a.k.a, being dead as a mackerel :-)--then I
> don't have a big problem with it. However, if it means
> dead people occupy some alternative universe, higher
> dimension, etc., well, that just strikes me as silliness.
> In my view, a dead person does not exist--i.e., does not
> exist physically. However, the fact that this universe
> produced him once--that he crossed the categorical
> boundary from nonexistence to existence once--is proof
> that it is capable of producing him again. Thus a dead
> person exists *as a potentiality*. As such, he is no
> different than a painting which has not yet been created,
> or a keg of gunpowder that has not yet been manufactured,
> or a bloom on a rose bush the seed of which has not yet
> been planted. Potentialities are real, yet they have no
> physical form. It is in this sense, and in this sense
> only, that the dead exist; and the world in which they
> exist is the same as the world of the living. --MJ}***
>
> ---- Obviously, we consist of two parts, a physical
> mechanism (hardware) and our stored knowledge and
> personality (software).  These two parts are considered to
> be connected by science, but are seen as separate parts
> called soul and spirit by religion.  The problem then, is
> for science to find a way, within physical space, for the
> software (soul) to be stored between the formation of new
> hardware (spirit).  Religion is useless in this effort
> because they invoke God and heaven, thereby leaving the
> major question unanswered.  The question religion needs to
> answer is, just how does God go about making this process
> happen?  In this sense, science and religion have the same
> goal, i.e. how do the process we see operate actually
> work?  Apparently, as we have discovered in many areas
> investigated by science, the mechanisms are not easily
> visible and require special tools. People are just
> starting to develop the physical tools, in contrast to the
> brain, needed to investigate this unseen reality.  We will
> just have to be open to what is found.  Unfortunately,
> religious beliefs and the ever present dislike of new
> ideas will make this process hard for many people.  ----
>
>
>
>> 2. The psi phenomenon:  This collection of effects and
>> mechanisms has been experienced by individuals to a
>> greater or lesser degree throughout history.  Recently,
>> investigations based on scientific methods have revealed
>> a universal characteristic to the effects.  If accepted,
>> they suggest the existence of a reality much different
>> from the one we normally experience.
>
>  ***{I thought this was where you were headed. In my view,
> there is only one reality: the infinite mechanical
> universe in which we all live. The dead exist here as
> potentialities, while the living exist here as
> actualities. We are all here because there isn't anywhere
> else to go: the universe, by definition, is the totality
> of that which is. --MJ}***
>
> ----If I understand your view, you would reject all psi
> phenomenon as being unreal.  If so, you then are forced to
> provide plausible explanations for what many people
> experience and what science is discovering about this
> phenomenon.  On the other hand, if any of this experience
> is based on a real phenomenon, then your worldview is
> inconsistent with reality.  How do you resolve this
> problem?---
>
>
>
>> 3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:  Sai Baba is an Avatar now
>> living in India who has powers that defy explanation.
>> These are the same powers that have been attributed to
>> Christ and believed to be real by many people. If
>> believed, these powers show the existence of a reality
>> parallel to but invisible to the one we normally
>> experience.  Apparently, matter can be easily
>> transported between these two realities by the entities
>> in the other reality.  This is only one of the many
>> strange interactions that appear to be possible.
>
>  ***{This sounds like a violation of the principle of
> physical continuity to me. If so, it leads to the collapse
> of the entire structure of human knowledge, for reasons
> that we have extensively discussed here in the past. The
> view of life after death that I have presented, on the
> other hand, does *not* require a violation of physical
> continuity, because while potentialities exist in the
> physical world, they do not have physical form, and the
> connections they mediate between the end of one life and
> the beginning of another are not physical. --MJ}***
>
> ---- I strongly suggest you learn about the events
> happening in India at the present time.  Sai Baba is a
> real person having real powers that violate all we know
> about our physical reality.  Either God is involved (as
> religion claims applies to Christ), in which case no
> further questions are asked, or an unknown physical
> reality and mechanism exists that have been completely
> ignored by science.  This is not a trivial notion nor one
> that should be dismissed out of ignorance about Sai Baba.
> -----
>
>
>
>> These three effects suggest the existence of a complex
>> reality that is largely invisible.  Of course, religions
>> preach this fact and many people accept this idea.
>
>  ***{Which, as noted above, is the central obstacle facing
> any intellectually honest individual who attempts to make
> sense out of such matters. As soon as religion comes into
> a discussion, social pressure starts to be applied--which
> means: there is a threat, stated or implied, of rejection
> if one's thoughts deviate from the path dictated by
> doctrine. Result: the entire area is repellent to any
> person who honestly seeks after the truth, and such
> people, by default, tend to gravitate toward the notion
> that death is a final end of consciousness--a "big sleep,"
> as it were. This is a tragedy that will only be rectified
> when men of reason begin to boldly turn their attention to
> such issues, and to clean up the mess that religion has
> made of them. --MJ}***
>
> ---There is an irony here- religious people accept the
> unseen reality, but have no interest in leaning more than
> that provided by the Priest or their bible.  On the other
> hand, people interested in science reject this idea
> because it violates the principles of physical causality.
> Even scientists who are religious do not apply scientific
> principles to this problem. ----
>
>
>
>> However, those of us who are of a scientific bent want
>> evidence. I suggest the three observations listed above
>> are such evidence - evidence that does not have to be
>> accepted on faith.
>
>  ***{Perhaps. I have stated my misgivings about some of
> your statements, and I await your comments. At present, we
> appear to be far from agreement about these matters,
> though perhaps not so far from one another as we are from
> others in this group. :-) --MJ}***
>
> Agreed - and this is a pleasent but unusual turn of
> events.
>
>
>
>>   Naturally, the possibility of such evidence needs to
>> be accepted in order for a person to be willing to take
>> a look.  The more effort taken to understand these
>> phenomenon, the more real they become.   Not to labor
>> the point, but this is “cold fusion effect” all over
>> again.  The only issue is whether a person has the
>> courage and curiosity to explore that which is
>> threatening to his present views.
>
>  ***{On that point we are in complete agreement. --MJ}***
>
> Ed

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&nbsp;
<p>Mitchell Jones wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style>
***{Hi
Ed. Sorry for the delayed response. As usual, your comments were rather
complex, and, also as usual, there are some points of disagreement between
us. Let us therefore battle our way toward the light! Enjoy. --MJ}***&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Mitchell, this is a very interesting and insightful
essay on a subject we all have to address at some time in our lives.&nbsp;
While I do not have such a polished description of our life history, I
suggest a number of observations must be included in any description.&nbsp;
Indeed, these observations would suggest a number of possibilities you
have missed.&nbsp; I will list a few of these phenomenon for discussion.&nbsp;
Of course, it is always possible to reject any or all of them in the same
manner as much about normal life is rejected to suit our limited worldview.</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;
<br>1. Reincarnation :&nbsp; This phenomenon has been studied at great
length both by scientific means as well as by universal experience over
many millennia. This evidence shows that some, if not all, people existed
in other bodies in the past.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{I have encountered some of those claims over the years, and have
never found any of them to be plausible. The reasons are twofold:&nbsp;(1)
Most such reports involve people claiming to have known, or to have been,
historically famous personages--a Prince of Egypt, or Napoleon, or Cleopatra,
etc. Very few reports of this sort involve claims that the person was a
nobody, or that he performed pedestrian activities of the sort that are
not described in history books or archaeology texts. Instead, they hew
to the path of the known, and they tend to elevate the status of the person
doing the reporting. That, to me, is virtual proof that most, and perhaps
all, of these types of reports are bogus. After all, the vast majority
of people in the past lived mundane lives far from the historical stage.
Thus if these reports were accurate, most would describe such lives. However,
they do not.
<p>---I suggest you look up the work of Prof. Ian Stevenson (University
of Virginia) (A short article can be found at "Unusual Play in Young Children
Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives", J. Sci. Explor. 14 (2000) 557).
Prof. Stevenson has spent many years investigating and published many books
about such claims throughout the world.&nbsp; His work is based mainly
on interviewing children who have knowledge of a previous life time and
this former life is known by people in the area, but could not have been
known by the child. These are mundane lives lived very close in time so
that the details can be verified.---
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;(2) More importantly, such reports defy causality. No mechanism
is proposed by which information about a life thousands of years ago would
be transported through space and time, and would implant itself in the
brain of a person living today. It is reasonable to suppose that natural
selection would deliver to the young of each species the innate understandings
that they need to get a proper start to their lives--that, for example,
the young of a species which is crucially dependent on the use of language
would be born with "natural talent" (a.k.a. innate understanding) that
would facilitate such learning, or that a species centrally dependent upon
the use of mathematics would produce young who were "gifted" in regards
to such learning. However, there is no imaginable purpose that would be
served by bringing a child into the world bearing memories of a culture
long dead, where mores and the technological context were radically different
from that of the world in which the child must now live and function. Even
worse: the notion that a genetic mechanism might somehow cause such memories
to be laid down in the brain of a new child, after skipping across vast
distances of space and time, simply defies understanding.
<p>----Prof. Stevenson finds that many children remember their immediate
previous life, but this memory gradually fades as they grow older.&nbsp;
I agree, ancient past lives are hard to verify and can be ignored.&nbsp;
However, this does not eliminate the possibility that the phenomenon is
real.&nbsp; As for the mechanism, just because we are too ignorant or&nbsp;
too unimaginative to find a mechanism does not mean that one does not exist.&nbsp;
I can speculate that if the second reality exists and it contains some
part of our personality and knowledge after we die, then this reality will
have a mechanism to reinsert this knowledge into this reality as memory
patterns in a new brain.&nbsp; Perhaps more study will eventually show
how this is done. -----&nbsp;Bottom line: it was such claims that repelled
me from this subject for decades, and I have no doubt that they act as
a barrier to many others as well.
<p>--- That's too bad.&nbsp; Emotion can be such a limit to knowledge.
---
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;--Mitchell Jones}***&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp; If accepted, the process would suggest
that after death we each occupy another form that has the power to re-enter
the physical form.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{It depends on what you mean. If "another form" simply means not
having a form--i.e., having no physical existence (a.k.a, being dead as
a mackerel :-)--then I don't have a big problem with it. However, if it
means dead people occupy some alternative universe, higher dimension, etc.,
well, that just strikes me as silliness. In my view, a dead person does
not exist--i.e., does not exist physically. However, the fact that this
universe produced him once--that he crossed the categorical boundary from
nonexistence to existence once--is proof that it is capable of producing
him again. Thus a dead person exists *as a potentiality*. As such, he is
no different than a painting which has not yet been created, or a keg of
gunpowder that has not yet been manufactured, or a bloom on a rose bush
the seed of which has not yet been planted. Potentialities are real, yet
they have no physical form. It is in this sense, and in this sense only,
that the dead exist; and the world in which they exist is the same as the
world of the living. --MJ}***
<p>---- Obviously, we consist of two parts, a physical mechanism (hardware)
and our stored knowledge and personality (software).&nbsp; These two parts
are considered to be connected by science, but are seen as separate parts
called soul and spirit by religion.&nbsp; The problem then, is for science
to find a way, within physical space, for the software (soul) to be stored
between the formation of new hardware (spirit).&nbsp; Religion is useless
in this effort because they invoke God and heaven, thereby leaving the
major question unanswered.&nbsp; The question religion needs to answer
is, just how does God go about making this process happen?&nbsp; In this
sense, science and religion have the same goal, i.e. how do the process
we see operate actually work?&nbsp; Apparently, as we have discovered in
many areas investigated by science, the mechanisms are not easily visible
and require special tools. People are just starting to develop the physical
tools, in contrast to the brain, needed to investigate this unseen reality.&nbsp;
We will just have to be open to what is found.&nbsp; Unfortunately, religious
beliefs and the ever present dislike of new ideas will make this process
hard for many people.&nbsp; ----
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>2. The psi phenomenon:&nbsp; This collection
of effects and mechanisms has been experienced by individuals to a greater
or lesser degree throughout history.&nbsp; Recently, investigations based
on scientific methods have revealed a universal characteristic to the effects.&nbsp;
If accepted, they suggest the existence of a reality much different from
the one we normally experience.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{I thought this was where you were headed. In my view, there is
only one reality: the infinite mechanical universe in which we all live.
The dead exist here as potentialities, while the living exist here as actualities.
We are all here because there isn't anywhere else to go: the universe,
by definition, is the totality of that which is. --MJ}***
<p>----If I understand your view, you would reject all psi phenomenon as
being unreal.&nbsp; If so, you then are forced to provide plausible explanations
for what many people experience and what science is discovering about this
phenomenon.&nbsp; On the other hand, if any of this experience is based
on a real phenomenon, then your worldview is inconsistent with reality.&nbsp;
How do you resolve this problem?---
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>3. The Sai Baba phenomenon:&nbsp; Sai Baba
is an Avatar now living in India who has powers that defy explanation.&nbsp;
These are the same powers that have been attributed to Christ and believed
to be real by many people. If believed, these powers show the existence
of a reality parallel to but invisible to the one we normally experience.&nbsp;
Apparently, matter can be easily transported between these two realities
by the entities in the other reality.&nbsp; This is only one of the many
strange interactions that appear to be possible.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{This sounds like a violation of the principle of physical continuity
to me. If so, it leads to the collapse of the entire structure of human
knowledge, for reasons that we have extensively discussed here in the past.
The view of life after death that I have presented, on the other hand,
does *not* require a violation of physical continuity, because while potentialities
exist in the physical world, they do not have physical form, and the connections
they mediate between the end of one life and the beginning of another are
not physical. --MJ}***
<p>---- I strongly suggest you learn about the events happening in India
at the present time.&nbsp; Sai Baba is a real person having real powers
that violate all we know about our physical reality.&nbsp; Either God is
involved (as religion claims applies to Christ), in which case no further
questions are asked, or an unknown physical reality and mechanism exists
that have been completely ignored by science.&nbsp; This is not a trivial
notion nor one that should be dismissed out of ignorance about Sai Baba.
-----
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>These three effects suggest the existence
of a complex reality that is largely invisible.&nbsp; Of course, religions
preach this fact and many people accept this idea.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{Which, as noted above, is the central obstacle facing any intellectually
honest individual who attempts to make sense out of such matters. As soon
as religion comes into a discussion, social pressure starts to be applied--which
means: there is a threat, stated or implied, of rejection if one's thoughts
deviate from the path dictated by doctrine. Result: the entire area is
repellent to any person who honestly seeks after the truth, and such people,
by default, tend to gravitate toward the notion that death is a final end
of consciousness--a "big sleep," as it were. This is a tragedy that will
only be rectified when men of reason begin to boldly turn their attention
to such issues, and to clean up the mess that religion has made of them.
--MJ}***
<p>---There is an irony here- religious people accept the unseen reality,
but have no interest in leaning more than that provided by the Priest or
their bible.&nbsp; On the other hand, people interested in science reject
this idea because it violates the principles of physical causality.&nbsp;
Even scientists who are religious do not apply scientific principles to
this problem. ----
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>However, those of us who are of a scientific
bent want evidence. I suggest the three observations listed above are such
evidence - evidence that does not have to be accepted on faith.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{Perhaps. I have stated my misgivings about some of your statements,
and I await your comments. At present, we appear to be far from agreement
about these matters, though perhaps not so far from one another as we are
from others in this group. :-) --MJ}***
<p>Agreed - and this is a pleasent but unusual turn of events.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp; Naturally, the <u>possibility</u> of
such evidence needs to be accepted in order for a person to be willing
to take a look.&nbsp; The more effort taken to understand these phenomenon,
the more real they become.&nbsp;&nbsp; Not to labor the point, but this
is “cold fusion effect” all over again.&nbsp; The only issue is whether
a person has the courage and curiosity to explore that which is threatening
to his present views.</blockquote>
&nbsp;***{On that point we are in complete agreement. --MJ}***
<p>Ed</blockquote>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 09:17:48 2001
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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Peltier Heat Flow and Thrust
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Subject: Re: Peltier Heat Flow and Thrust


I like to think that when heat flows radially from the center of the sphere
outward  a portion three dimensional vibratory motion of the molecules in
the outer portions of that sphere becomes transformed into two dimensional
vibratory motion resulting in the manifestation of the gravitational force.
I have several arguments supporting this position.

(1)  One of the formulas used to prove the mechanical equivalent of heat
i.e.

mgh = m cp (delta T)

in part justifies my position that gravity is a manifestation of the three
dimensional motion of heat changing into two dimensional motion.

Drop something from a height h and after it hits the ground and its
temperature will have increased by (delta T). (See my thermal.pdf paper
which can be downloaded from my website for more on this.).

>From the formula for the lapse rate

delta T/ h = g/cp

I also infer that the reverse process is true.  That is when a given mass
rises a height h its
temperature drops by delta T.



(2) We know that in a heat emanating sphere the unit area heat flux will
vary as

q = Q/(4 pi r^2).

Consider a long rectangle whose smaller sides are of unit area and whose
length is close to a radius of a sphere and whose length is collinear with a
radius of that sphere.  Inside this sphere Fourier's law for heat transfer
in a slab will not work in describing how the unit area heat flux will vary
along the length of this virtual rectangle inside the sphere.

The above formula or Fourier's law for heat transfer in a sphere must be
used. Heat seems to be somehow changing its character when is flows along a
virtual rectangle inside a sphere and when it flows along an identical
rectangle outside that sphere. A way to resolve this apparent contradiction
is to say that as heat flows in the outer portions of that sphere the
character of its three dimensional vibratory motion does indeed change.
This change provides the necessary thermal resistance so that the unit area
heat flux to will vary inversely as the square of the radius as we know must
happen if the principle of conservation of energy is not to be violated.


(3) The fact that my basic formula

g = (Q'/m)8 pi r

predicts the surface gravity of the Earth and Moon, if m = M/2 is allowed,
also supports my contention that a portion of the heat flowing out of a
sphere changes into two dimensional motion.


(4)  Tibetan acoustic levitation and even just plain acoustic levitation
seems to be intimately related to antigravity.  See
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/gravity2.htm .


I consider heat as it is manifest in a solid  as three dimensional vibratory
motion of the atom or molecule.  I consider sound as one or two dimensional
vibratory motion of an atom or molecule.
Thus I surmise that the Tibetans have figured out a way to change a portion
of the three dimensional motion of the heat associated with a rock to two
dimensional motion in such a way that the gravitational force becomes
manifest in that rock.

Thus to me why we are observing a weight change in a Pita-enveloped Peltier
device and hemispheres subjected to the radial conduction of heat is because
some of heat's three dimensional motion is being transformed into two
dimensional motion.

I used to call the  Thermal Resistance theory the Ordered Freedom theory but
no one seemed to be able to figure out why.


Peter Fred

"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat"

http://pbfred.tripod.com/


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 14:35:10 2001
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Subject: RE: Peltier madness
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At 05:00 AM 4/17/01 -0400, Peter Fred wrote:

Peter, forgive me for not studying your website.  Have you ever observed a
>weight INCREASE in these experiments?
>
>****Yes, see the picture of the convex-up copper hemisphere on the index
>of my website at http://pbfred.tripod.com/index.htm.  As is stated in my
>paper at http://pbfred.tripod.com/thermal.pdf a 0.006 N or a 6 mg weight
>increase was observed after 300 seconds of 2250 watts of illumination
>from underneath.

Actually it looks like your paper says a 0.14 N weight increase was 
observed for the big Cu hemisphere.  That does work out to 0.4% relative 
but it's far larger than 6 milligrams.  1 N is about 100 grams so your 0.14 
N weight increase was 14 grams!  Quite a lot.

Describe this rod and fulcrum weighing system you employed.  How did you 
actually measure the weight changes?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 15:44:16 2001
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Subject: Nice quote from Shirakawa
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Here's a translation of a short article about a charming fellow who won a 
Nobel prize last year. He was apparently a favorite of the university 
students, sometimes turning down a promotion in order to teach. Before he 
received the medal, Shirakawa had recently retired from teaching. He had 
applied to several jobs but received no response. He was casting about 
wondering what to do when the phone call from Sweden came in. Dozens of 
reporters showed up at his door and asked him what exactly he had 
accomplished to win the prize. Rather than trying to explain it, he invited 
the reporters in and performed an impromptu lecture and demonstration.

- Jed

Yomiuri, April 5, 2001

Nobel Laureate Shirakawa Directs the National Science Museum for One Day

Hideki Shirakawa, professor emeritus Tsukaba University, who shared to 
Nobel prize in chemistry last year, spent one day at the National Science 
Museum in Ueno, Tokyo, as honorary acting director. He showed a class of 
middle school students how fascinating science can be, lecturing as he 
performed an experiment.

The experiment demonstrated the effect for which he won the Nobel prize, 
plastics that conduct electricity. He took photographic film, which does 
not conduct electricity, and electrolyzed it in a solution. Students were 
thrilled to see a miniature lamp glowed brightly when the film was used in 
place of a wire.

One of the students asked, "what is the trick for winning the Nobel prize?" 
Shirakawa responded, "that's a tough question," and folded his arms to 
think about it. "Do research that other people are not doing, and do it 
because he really like it, not because you're obliged to." He later passed 
around the Nobel medal, letting each student see it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 17:24:14 2001
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Subject: Secondary repercussions from Kyoto
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Let's take a critical peek at ultimate motivations.

The present administration, which stated up front that it will not attempt to 
become "aggressively intellectual" in foreign or domestic policy initiatives, is 
not only well on its way to demonstrating the accuracy of that prognostication 
to the entire world, but also has a little something else on its mind. Among the 
intended casualties of the administration's pro-oil, anti-environmental stance 
i.e. the disaffirmation of the Kyoto protocol, will perhaps be the first viable 
(potentially economical) alternative to oil, which is the promising discovery of 
a tiny renewable energy company, Melis Energy (and a couple of others in the 
same line of work).

This nearly unknown startup firm is typical of the threat that Bush/Cheney, at 
the insistence of their big oil cronies, want to nip in the bud. The thinly 
disguised anti-Kyoto rhetoric covers up an ocean of corporate greed and 
political payoffs.

The goal and technology of Melis Energy and its collaborators at the National 
Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), which will also probably soon be 
marginalized, is as simple as cheap hydrogen. Hydrogen the old fashioned way, 
not from expensive hydrocarbons but, well... from scum. But don't take that 
description too lightly as the results could be pollution-free electricity and 
transportation made possible by converting the energy of biologically-produced 
hydrogen.

And it's pretty damn competitive price-wise. It's just about the only near term 
solution on the horizon to carry us over until the "new energy" - in the form of 
EVs, hydrinos, ZPE, sonofusion or whatever, is eventually harnessed.

Dr. Tasios Melis has uncovered a truly remarkable metabolic process by which 
plain old green algae (suitably modified) is stimulated to produce significant 
amounts of hydrogen, instead of oxygen, during photosynthesis. "I guess it's the 
equivalent of striking oil," said the UC Berkeley biology professor. "It was 
enormously exciting, it was unbelievable." The story of this discovery was 
published in The San Francisco Chronicle on Jan 29, 2000, and improvements in 
the work force (algae) have been accumulating ever since. Now the fledgling 
company is trying to get it's foot into the slamming door of international 
energy markets controlled by the Cartels, including the "seven sister" Cartel 
which has more influence even than OPEC because its #1 bag-man, Dick Cheney, is 
owned lock, stock and barrel.

Many of these startup renewable energy companies like Melis can only overcome 
the enormous obstacles that have already been placed in their way by big oil if 
they are able to obtain or participate in "credits" with a certain dollar value 
meant to encourage the elimination of carbon and greenhouse pollution. Once they 
are established, these companies claim they can produce hydrogen competitively 
with OPEC priced oil, even cheaper perhaps, but they need help to get started.

Bush and Cheney (whose personal income for last year was in excess of $36 
million oil-soaked dollars) want to quell any threat to big oil by eliminating 
these credits (and ultimately the small startups). The incentives in question 
pale in comparison to the trillions of taxpayer dollars that have been given 
generously to big oil over the past century in the form of "depletion" 
allowances - a total rape of the treasury.

Some info inspired by the Melis website:
The potential return upon creating the world's first non-polluting, 
biotechnological renewable energy source cannot be over-estimated.  During the 
infancy of the petroleum industry, it  would have been impossible to imagine the 
long-term potential and many secondary applications such as air transport. When 
scientists began to uncover the secrets of semiconductors, no one could imagine 
the impact that computers and the Internet would have on our lives.

Likewise, renewable and environmentally friendly hydrogen production promises to 
bring about technological developments in many fields not now envisioned.  It 
can ultimately increase employment, especially "alternative farming" employment, 
stimulate the transportation economy and still have a positive impact on the 
environment by alleviating the greenhouse effect. It is the goal of Melis Energy 
to utilize the clean biotechnological production of hydrogen in an area which 
will provide the greatest return for the company and at the same time provide 
the greatest benefit to our society in producing pollution free electricity to 
an already over-burdened, over-priced, and over stressed system. See

http://www.melisenergy.com/

If Bush/Cheney succeed, look for Melis and others to be bought by the likes of 
Chevron, Exxon or assorted sisters ("generously" just so there's no hard 
feelings) and then the technology "shelved" for "technical reasons."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 18:31:06 2001
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Merlyn:

Although I agree there are problems with this device I must disagree about 
the Ozone.

The sweet fresh smell proceeding a lightning strike would be caused by 
small concentrations of Ozone.  This is the same as that fresh smell of 
clean linens drying in the wind or can also be found in the vicinity of an 
excited Tesla coil and a host of other sources emitting very small amounts 
of Ozone into the air.  The higher concentrations of Ozone found in your 
average city on a still hot summer day may be unpleasant, nauseating or 
even induce headache.  Even higher concentrations become poisonous.

The same could be said about granulated white sugar.

At 08:25 AM 4/17/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I see a few logical inconsistancies in his description of the device.
>
>Most notably the "fresh smelling air" created by ozone...  Ozone doesn't 
>smell fresh.
>
>Also if this device works as described it is far to dangerous as it stands 
>now because of the extreme voltage and ionizing capability.
>
>Don't even expect me to go into the weight/mass confusion.
>
>Merlyn
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 21:12:43 2001
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[snip]

Jones Beene wrote:

>
>http://www.melisenergy.com/
>
>If Bush/Cheney succeed, look for Melis and others to be bought by the
>likes of
>Chevron, Exxon or assorted sisters ("generously" just so there's no hard
>feelings) and then the technology "shelved" for "technical reasons."

***{I share your view of the Bush administration and of its willingness to
use political clout to squash any threat to the oil cartel (or to any of
its other politically connected supporters). This is, in fact, precisely
the sort of reality that normally lies behind the facade of supposed
government actions "in the public interest." Unfortunately, most people
only look behind the curtain to see what is really going on when the scheme
is being hatched by members of the political party which they oppose. Thus
persons on the political left are quick to see the predatory motivations
behind republican "public interest" rhetoric, while remaining utterly blind
to the equally predatory motivations that lie behind democratically
sponsored "public interest" legislation (e.g., the Kyoto accords), and
persons on the political right wear blinders of the opposite sort. Result:
the death spiral of the country is guaranteed to continue, whichever of the
two major parties happens to be in power at a given time. --MJ}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 23:24:59 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Ornithopter!
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:23:49 -0700
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Safest vehicle since the space shuttle ?? If we measured passenger miles or
energy used, compared to the death rate of any other transportation, the
space shuttle would win hands down.

I haven't heard of a head on accident with a space shuttle, a drunk driver
space shuttle accident, or a space shuttle hitting a reef and killing
thousands of miles of shoreline.

The Space Shuttle is not dangerous to you, and in fact when it DID have an
accident the space shuttle pilot and passenger were alive and well and the
cabin completely whole, till it impacted the water. The explosion was less
than 6 G's, however the impact with the water was over 20+.

The Shuttle was engineered to be safe, but suffered from complete LACK of a
Redundant BACKUP in 2 important areas. Redundant booster gasket, and a
emergency escape system, that was in place in EVERY other rocket system the
US ever built.

The Russians eventually got it right, and FLEW their FIRST shuttle on Liquid
boosters ( that's where they were experienced, they couldn't make a
segmented solid booster ) and  had it orbit, manuver, and land , all
UNMANNED the FIRST time !!!. Then they ran out of money.

I predict that the Russians will out compete the US eventually in the Space
Race and the CF race, even with China.
1. There is a global market for space launching systems. And CF
2. Russian engineering though less advanced, is better engineered and
simpler. ( test tubes huh Borloff ? lets get cracking. )
3. they have a cheaper labor force so Real money spent on development has
5-20 times the actual value.


All you techno idiots and shit for brains that don't know anything what you
are talking about really piss me off. If it weren't for people trying new
ideas, you would be picking cotton by hand, and throwing your shit out the
window into the middle of the street, hoping it would rain.

Keep up the experiments, and when you do a comparison, know WTF your talking
about!

Matthew Rogers

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 2:39 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ornithopter!

Rick Monteverde wrote:

>That's the dumbest looking death-machine I've seen since the old film of
>the guy on the bicycle with a collection of rockets strapped to his ass.
>
>I love the idea of an ornithopter, especially a human-powered one. But
>that ludicrous rig isn't good for anything except efficient executions.

That is more or less what the pilot said after the first airstrip taxi
tests. You wouldn't catch ME trying to fly the thing, I'll grant.

However, they have greatly improved it. Read the Canadian Aeronautics and
Space Journal, article, June 1999 in PDF on the web page. The machine has
safety features such as a built-in rocket launched parachute, which has
been shown to be effective in ultra-light airplanes.

All in all, it does not seem much more dangerous than other experimental
ultra-light aircraft, and a lot less dangerous than the Space Shuttle or
any rocket propelled vehicle. Obviously, it is not intended for practical
use or long range flight.


>Puff of wind, bam, you're dead.

Obviously they would never attempt to fly when there is wind. Their
test-flights are at dawn. For the same reason, the Wrights and others
pioneers never flew in wind, until around 1910. The video of the
quarter-size scale model shows the machine can be maneuvered and controlled
remarkably well. It may be able to turn more sharply in a smaller area than
a conventional airplane. If it turns out to be inherently unstable,
computer controls might solve the problem.

As the web page explains, there may be practical uses for this technology
at the other end of the scale, in flying machines the size of insects. They
might be useful in police work, or during rescue operations. This is
another example what Mike Carrell talked about the other day: learning from
nature. There is similar research designing robots to cross rough terrain,
by shaping them like cockroaches.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 02:27:46 2001
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At 11:23 PM -0700 4/17/01, Matthew Rogers unfortunately said:

>All you techno idiots and shit for brains that don't know anything what you
>are talking about really piss me off.

Hi Matthew -

Are you calling Jed or myself a "shit for brains" or a "techno idiot" 
because we posted about the unstable and dangerous nature of the 
ornithopter? That's not the style of discourse we normally enjoy 
here. The list owner has asked members not to make personal attacks 
like that here. If you find yourself unable to comply with this 
reasonable rule, perhaps you'd be kind enough to unsubscribe yourself 
so you aren't exposed to posts like ours, which seem to have caused 
you to abandon your civility for some odd reason.

On the topic, I'm all for the experimentation being done with 
ornithopters and other aviation fringe ideas - like that done by my 
hero Paul MacCready and other pioneers of hang gliding and ultralight 
flight. But it can be dangerous, and people fall in love with ideas 
and lose perspective on the risk/reward equations, sometimes losing 
lives in the process. Until the stability issues with that Canadian 
ornithopter are resolved, I think having a human pilot fly it is an 
inappropriate and ultimately unnecessary risk. And contrary to your 
rude claim, I do know what I am talking about here, having lost 
friends to accidents in experimental aviation under the conditions I 
described above: love of idea, lack of aerodynamic stability.

Thanks for caring so terribly much,

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Matthew Rogers wrote:

>Safest vehicle since the space shuttle ?? If we measured passenger miles or
>energy used, compared to the death rate of any other transportation, the
>space shuttle would win hands down.

That's incorrect. The Space Shuttle has flown approximately 131,400 
passenger hours (15 years) with 7 fatalities. That's one fatality every 2 
passenger years. U.S. commercial aviation fatalities occur once in 18,000 
passenger years. Even taking into account the faster speed of the Shuttle, 
the number of fatalities per passenger mile is greater. (The Shuttle goes 
17,000 mph, 28 times faster than most airplanes.)

Sources:

http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/factoids/funfacts.htm

http://www.flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_apr00.pdf

Please get your facts straight before posting messages here, and please 
refrain from using expressions such as "shit for brains." Also, it's Mr. 
Techno Idiot to you, sir.

- Jed

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From: Scott Little wrote:


Peter, forgive me for not studying your website.  Have you ever observed a
>weight INCREASE in these experiments?
>
>****Yes, see the picture of the convex-up copper hemisphere on the index
>of my website at http://pbfred.tripod.com/index.htm.  As is stated in my
>paper at http://pbfred.tripod.com/thermal.pdf a 0.006 N or a 6 mg weight
>increase was observed after 300 seconds of 2250 watts of illumination
>from underneath.

Scott Little wrote:

Actually it looks like your paper says a 0.14 N weight increase was
observed for the big Cu hemisphere.  That does work out to 0.4% relative
but it's far larger than 6 milligrams.  1 N is about 100 grams so your 0.14
N weight increase was 14 grams!  Quite a lot.

****I do not usually make errors in thinking in that direction.  I also now
believe that using the 0.4 % increase and comparing it to the ~2.9 %
decrease, found with the 82-cm aluminum hemisphere, is misleading.  With the
copper configuration included in its overall weight is the heat assembly and
the wire weighing pan (outdoor grill).  The mass or weight of the aluminum
hemisphere only involves the hemisphere itself.  Thus if I had a decent
measurement of the heat assembly and the wire weighing pan I could subtract
it out and get a proper percentage increase to compare to the ~2.9 %
decrease.

Scott Little wrote:

Describe this rod and fulcrum weighing system you employed.

***For a rod I used a 48" aluminum I-beam that carpenters use--the
particular name of which I have forgotten.  At any rate these "I-beams" can
always be found at hardware stores.  It is really a great rod for a rod a
fulcrum system. It has levels in the middle at the 1' and 3' markers which
help in leveling and balancing things.  Also the rod is very strong and thus
you do not have to worry whether there will be force measurements unduly
contaminated by the bending of the rod.

At the 24" mark I cut groves in the I-beam so that the I-beam would remain
on one spot as it rested on a knife blade which I used as a fulcrum.  The
I-beam and fulcrum was suspended about 6' from the floor and the hemisphere
under test was suspended by three steel wires to one end of the I-beam.  On
the other end of the I-beam I attached a steel wire which dropped to the
floor  and was attached to a force sensor which held secure to the floor by
a 2' two by four arrangement.

The force sensor was a 5-50 Dual Range Force Sensor from
http://www.vernier.com/.  The Logger Pro software was also from Vernier
Software.

Also, if I felt it was warranted, I placed insulation between the force
sensor and the suspended hemisphere to prevent heat from the heat assembly
and hemisphere from affecting the force measurements.



Scott Little wrote:

How did you actually measure the weight changes?

*** Usually after I commenced taking in force measurements I would wait 20
seconds and then turn on the power.  After the end of the Run, which would
last a predetermined amount of time, I would then note  the drop in force or
increase in force.  I would call this reading Y. I would also note the force
reading at the 20 second point and call this reading X.

To get the percentage increase or decrease I would use the formula

100 * [(X-Y)/X].

To get the difference in force I would use the formula (X -Y) which would be
in newtons.  I would then convert to kilograms with the formula

(X-Y)/9.806.


Peter Fred


"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat"

http://pbfred.tripod.com/

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I was not aware that low concentrations of ozone smelled pleasant and fresh.

Thanx for the correction.
Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 12:24:21 2001
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Adam Cox wrote:

>I was not aware that low concentrations of ozone smelled pleasant and fresh.

Does anyone know what the smell from hot vacuum tubes comes from? Like you 
smell in the back of an old radio? It is something I remember from 
childhood with a dream-like intensity, which came back to me when I read 
about people assembling the early computers. I have always wondered what 
causes it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 13:29:28 2001
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:23:11 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Think about zinc
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Zn is one of the most prominent transmutation products reported in Pd cold 
fusion. Comparing a virgin Pd cathode to a cathode that produces excess 
heat, researchers note two things:

1. Zn appears out of nowhere.

2. The isotopic ratios are unnatural. Zn-64 is reduced, and Zn-68 is increased.

Here are some examples:

Mizuno reported Zn way above background. See I.E. #9, p. 29

Miley found Zn production, with unnatural ratios. Zn-68 ratio 16 times 
above normal, and Zn-64 12 times below normal. See I.E. #9, p. 25

Mo et al. found mainly Zn production in Pd, with unnatural isotopic ratios. 
See ICCF-7. They found no significant Zn in virgin cathodes.

Passell and George confirmed Mo et al., in ICCF-8. They found many "new 
elements" (transmutation or contamination) in the Pd-black used by Arata. 
Most of the mass of new elements is Zn. They were unable to measure the 
Zn-64/Zn-68 ratio.

I seem to recall other Zn results, but I cannot find them at the moment.

I have no idea what this means, but theorists should take note of it.

- Jed

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Here you go, Jed>

 http://www.deco-echoes.com/bakelite.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 13:59:26 2001
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Ozone
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Jed -

I wrote:

>Usually an opaque brick red or black color,
>as it didn't take a tint very well.

That's the bakelite that didn't tint well. Bakelite is the higher 
temperature material, with melmac used mostly for outer housings, 
knobs, etc. Melmac does white and pastels.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Does anyone know what the smell from hot vacuum tubes comes from? 
>Like you smell in the back of an old radio? It is something I 
>remember from childhood with a dream-like intensity, which came back 
>to me when I read about people assembling the early computers. I 
>have always wondered what causes it.
>
>- Jed

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Ozone

Jed wrote:


> Adam Cox wrote:
> 
> >I was not aware that low concentrations of ozone smelled pleasant and fresh.
> 
> Does anyone know what the smell from hot vacuum tubes comes from? Like you 
> smell in the back of an old radio? It is something I remember from 
> childhood with a dream-like intensity, which came back to me when I read 
> about people assembling the early computers. I have always wondered what 
> causes it.

The "Bakelight" and/or Phenolic base around the tubes gets hot and outgasses.

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 14:36:47 2001
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:33:32 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jed -

Ithink that's from the plastics used, melamine resin mostly. Phenolic 
resins too, aka bakelite. Melamine is that hard almost ceramic-like 
heat resistant plastic that was used in appliances where epoxies are 
mostly used today. Knobs, housings, component sockets were often 
melamine resin. Usually an opaque brick red or black color, as it 
didn't take a tint very well. The plastic tableware called "Melmac" 
(yes, just like Alf's planet) is made of this resin.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Does anyone know what the smell from hot vacuum tubes comes from? 
>Like you smell in the back of an old radio? It is something I 
>remember from childhood with a dream-like intensity, which came back 
>to me when I read about people assembling the early computers. I 
>have always wondered what causes it.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 14:56:32 2001
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 <5.0.2.1.2.20010418093708.0207d8d8 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:32:29 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Flight safety (was Ornithopter!)
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Jed -

Statistics. Ugh.

Bottom line: The shuttle has flown about a hundred times and blown up 
once killing everybody. Would you ride on something with a record 
like that? I sure wouldn't. And as far as rocketry is concerned, the 
shuttle *does* have a relatively good record. What's the satellite 
launch success rate - 60% or something? Common sense tells us that 
riding on giant roman candles is EXTREMELY dangerous. Any attempt, 
using statistics or anything else, at making it look routine or safe 
is laughable nonsense.

Frankly I think Matt was doing a bit of trolling here. His claim was 
that the fact that the Challenger crew might have been alive until 
they hit the water somehow mitigates the disaster is clear evidence 
of his desire to make outrageous and ridiculous statements for us to 
enjoy and fuss over.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>That's incorrect. The Space Shuttle has flown approximately 131,400 
>passenger hours (15 years) with 7 fatalities. That's one fatality 
>every 2 passenger years. U.S. commercial aviation fatalities occur 
>once in 18,000 passenger years. Even taking into account the faster 
>speed of the Shuttle, the number of fatalities per passenger mile is 
>greater. (The Shuttle goes 17,000 mph, 28 times faster than most 
>airplanes.)
>
>Sources:
>
>http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/factoids/funfacts.htm
>
>http://www.flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_apr00.pdf
>
>Please get your facts straight before posting messages here, and 
>please refrain from using expressions such as "shit for brains." 
>Also, it's Mr. Techno Idiot to you, sir.
>
>- Jed

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 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/18/supersonic.plane/index.html?s=8

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 17:08:15 2001
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 <5.0.2.1.2.20010409172521.0241a030 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:48:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Ornithopter!
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>Matthew Rogers wrote:
>
>>Safest vehicle since the space shuttle ?? If we measured passenger miles or
>>energy used, compared to the death rate of any other transportation, the
>>space shuttle would win hands down.
>
>That's incorrect. The Space Shuttle has flown approximately 131,400
>passenger hours (15 years) with 7 fatalities. That's one fatality every 2
>passenger years. U.S. commercial aviation fatalities occur once in 18,000
>passenger years. Even taking into account the faster speed of the Shuttle,
>the number of fatalities per passenger mile is greater.

***{Deaths per passenger hour is a biased statistic that ignores miles
traveled. When deaths per passenger mile are computed, the shuttle is safer
than autos and trains, and only trivially less safe than passenger
aircraft. For example, in 1997 the death rate per passenger mile for autos
was 92x10^-9, that for trains was 4x10^-9, and that for passenger airlines
was 1x10^-9. (See http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statfaq.htm.) For the shuttle,
based on your figures, deaths per passenger mile were 7/(131400)(17000) =
3.1x10^-9, which places it between passenger airlines and trains.

Worse, the O-ring problem that caused the 7 shuttle deaths in the
Challenger accident (Jan. 28, 1986) was fixed long ago, and, since that
time, the rate of deaths per passenger mile for the shuttle has been zero.
The question is: can you show me a conventional airline that has flown a
comparable number of miles with a death rate of zero? (Miles logged using
Burnelli airframes back in the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's do not count, of
course. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

(The Shuttle goes
>17,000 mph, 28 times faster than most airplanes.)
>
>Sources:
>
>http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/factoids/funfacts.htm
>
>http://www.flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_apr00.pdf
>
>Please get your facts straight before posting messages here, and please
>refrain from using expressions such as "shit for brains." Also, it's Mr.
>Techno Idiot to you, sir.

***{His facts were straighter than yours, and his language was no more
insulting than some of the stuff you have posted here in the past. When you
live by the sword, expect to die by the sword. --MJ}***

>- Jed

________________
Quote of the month:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always
followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 17:34:25 2001
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:59:22 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Think about zinc
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

 > Zn is one of the most prominent transmutation products reported in Pd
 > cold fusion.

In one of the classic older studies:

J.O'M. Bockris & Z. Minevski, "Two Zones of Impurities Observed After Prolonged 
Electrolysis of Deuterium on Palladium," Infinite Energy, vol 1, no 5&6, 1996, 
pp 67-69, 2 tables, 3 figs, 8 refs.

Bockris found far more anomalous Calcium (almost 20 percent of the entire 
sample! whereas Zn was about 4 percent - and Pd had been reduced from close to 
100 percent to just over 30 %! This is quite remarkable, if true.

There are some interesting rationales for the favored appearance of Ca (20/40), 
both numerical and physical. As for Zn, nothing comes to mind except some of 
Aspden's arcane supergraviton stuff which I have never gotten a grasp on.


Regards,

Jones Beene



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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Think about zinc
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:27:00 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:23:11 -0400:

>Zn is one of the most prominent transmutation products reported in Pd cold 
>fusion. Comparing a virgin Pd cathode to a cathode that produces excess 
>heat, researchers note two things:
>
>1. Zn appears out of nowhere.
>
>2. The isotopic ratios are unnatural. Zn-64 is reduced, and Zn-68 is increased.
[snip]
Zn is Pd - 16S32. S32 is another nucleus with a hole number of helium
nuclei in it. Though I'm not sure where the excess neutrons from the Pd
have gone to. Perhaps into creating a heavier nucleus than Pd at the
same time, or perhaps into a heavier isotope of sulphur.

Many of the transmutation reactions reported appear to involve such
helium cluster nuclei (i.e. one often sees the atomic number of the
product substances differing from that of the initial substances by a
whole number of helium nuclei - an even number change IOW).

This would be easily explained with T. Lach's theory. I.e. the core of
the new nucleus would contain a whole number of helium nuclei, with
possibly a few spare neutrons stuck on along the sides.

The structure of the Pd nucleus may be such that a sulphur nucleus can
break off intact.



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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Jed:

Actually there is more there then Bakelite. (one of many odors)  There is 
also heated dust  combined with insulating wax, a small amount of Ozone, 
vulcanized rubber that was used to insulate the old wires and of course the 
decaying solder flux that was not cleaned off in those days.    There is 
also a catfish acrylic based insulator that may have ben used on the magnet 
wires in the coils and on the wooden enclosure.  There are also about a 
dozen or so oxides of metals that we dare not use today.

All in all a rather complex group of odors that all of us who have that 
sort of experience can chalk up to "old hot tubes" :-)


At 10:47 AM 4/18/01 -1000, you wrote:
>Jed -
>
>I wrote:
>
>>Usually an opaque brick red or black color,
>>as it didn't take a tint very well.
>
>That's the bakelite that didn't tint well. Bakelite is the higher 
>temperature material, with melmac used mostly for outer housings, knobs, 
>etc. Melmac does white and pastels.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>>Does anyone know what the smell from hot vacuum tubes comes from? Like 
>>you smell in the back of an old radio? It is something I remember from 
>>childhood with a dream-like intensity, which came back to me when I read 
>>about people assembling the early computers. I have always wondered what 
>>causes it.
>>
>>- Jed


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>Ok,
>	So anyone calculate, based on the number of sightings of these dark
>comets,
>the estimated total mass of "dark" water comets in our solar system alone?
>
>I estimate it would be a staggering number.

***{Yes. All the estimates I have seen have been gigantic, and they have
been talking about the large comets that everyone agrees exist, not about
small comets. For example, in the *Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*,
pg. 244, the Kuiper belt is described as follows:

"A disc of some 10^7 to 10^9 comets that hugs the plane of the planetary
system and lies between about 35 and 1000 AU from the sun."

Referring to the Oort cloud on pg. 314, the same book makes the following
comment:

"The number of comets in the cloud is uncertain, but it could be somewhere
in the range 10^11 to 10^12 with total mass in the region of about 10^28
grams. The orbits are oriented at random. A comet cloud of radiu